That's a beautiful picture. I love the stairs and the building in the foreground. Did you take the photo yourself?

It's a bit awkward now that Nell's commented on it, ttrroonniicc. Why did you remove it, was a lovely picture. Did you want to resize it?
I just saw a book in the store "The Villages of Italy". Gorgeous photography!
Still, I can do that for you in the morning, just to warn the other mods. There's all sorts of havoc when three mods delete at the same time!

Troon -

I really wish you'd stop posting stuff, only to then remove the content ten minutes later and ask us to delete your posts. We now have a thread consisting of three posts, all about posts that no longer exist.

What did I miss? Few banns I see Never understood the purpose of trolling. Such a waste of time. I wish I had that much free time. Why not do something useful with it?

If I were Pacelli, I would have continued on the timing of that text message some more. Since Knox seems to have no problem remembering the timing of it then she should remember the things that were directly related to that message. Things like preparing to go to work, changing clothes, having dinner. She must then remember if she had dinner before or after. There is no maybe, 9, 10 or 11 o'clock if you remember that text message. It should be more precise.

On the other hand, we already know she is lying anyway, RS was doing dishes by about 8:30pm and dinner was already over. Of course, Knox had dinner before going to work. They prepared for that and they remember exactly.

By the way, Hellmann is 'hilarious' on the topic of dish washing.


They had lunch at the cottage, so letting dirt getting hard and sticky is not an issue here. Besides he apparently never read Knox email.


Does Hellmann have kids? Cuz it seems like a little kid wrote this nonsense.

Both of them said anyway, in statements, email and diaries, that the leak took place when Raffaele washed the dishes after they had had dinner (as your later quote shows). So, by their own words, there is no ambiguity over the fact that the leak took place after they had eaten evening dinner. And trial testimony and case evidence, proved that the leak took place before Raffaele's father called at 8:42 pm. The defence never even challenged these facts and the narrative they draw. Why does Hellmann invent excuses for them, that even the accused and their defence don't make? Ones that fly in the face of the established facts at that.

The murder of Meredith Kercher attracted a wide range of individuals to the case, some hoping to work as translators for the networks, some, like John Grisham or Douglas Preston, who wanted to make big bucks on books and movie deals, and then there were the little guys, none of whom, imo, were as interesting as Francesco Sforza, aka "Frank Sfarzo".

A Perugian who ran a student flophouse in the town, he claimed his interest in the case was struck by the fact that Meredith first called him looking for a place when she arrived there. Yet, his website Perugia Shock, was set up on November 2, the day Meredith's body was found, so it appears his interest was more mercenary than altruistic, to be a springboard for his media ambitions.

His website, while slightly pro-Meredith at first, quickly turned into an unabashedly pro-Amanda Knox site, and was one of the main sources of local intelligence for Knox's family. He managed to ingratiate himself with many clerks and cops, and would come up with pictures no one else had, or scoops the press never got to. If he was slapped around a bit by the cops during his arrest, I'm sure it was a little retribution for his turning on them.

He very likely was the person who tried to sell nude photos of Amanda Knox. Barbie Nadeau wrote a story about this, without naming him, but it is clear he was the one she was referring to. He claimed to have seen Meredith's body, though whether that was on the autopsy table, from the coroner's photos or made up we will never know. His nude pics may not have been real, just photoshopped fakes the papers took a pass on. If they had been real, the London papers would have made him a very rich man. Still, he is interesting, in an Artful Dodger sort of way

Mignini seems to think that Sfarzo is modeling himself on Mario Spezi, the Monster of Florence journalist. I think Frank's desires ran very much to America instead, and you could see fame dancing before his eyes, as you can see when he tries to hawk his story and rattle his tin cup looking for donations from his dwindling band of supporters.

Regardless, I think he deserves a listing of his own on dot net, before we get on to Bruce Fis(c)her, another blogger who won't spell his name right

Bruce just plods along, while Frank has pizazz. I know they're both unsympathetic characters, amoral to boot, but really all the interesting people in film have that certain quality that Frank has, even if he is a drama queen. Really, Frank, you got slapped around a little by some Italian cops? Jeez, you should see what NYPD does to haitian immigrants or Winnipeg cops do to native people (you wouldn't want to know) So man up, ok?

So, for the new Francesco Sfarzo thread, look no further than here: Francesco Sfarzo, also known as Frank Sfarzo

There must be a why, but I am not getting it. Why even elaborate like he is doing? Why get into 'dirt that gets hard and sticky from lunch'. Even if they had lunch at this apartment then it would have been hours before. Is he just having 'fun'? I think he never read much else besides the Massei report and concentrates on making up alternative theories based on that. He then completely contradicts further evidence such as the emails and other statements. It is not just the sticky dirty either. He goes on and on in his report. AK removing the bloody footprints leading to the bathmat while doing her shuffle, DNA leaping over from a bloody shoeprint into a luminol footprint, bleaches with no smell, Rudy staging his own burglary, etc etc... It is rather embarrassing actually.

I must admit, I get pretty discouraged at my fumblings with the computer. I have attempted on numerous occasions to explain, with pictures what I believe happened to the bra and clasp and why Sollecito's DNA is where it is and why it is so damning, but, I lack the skillset required to bring up the pictures. I have deleted myself on more than one occasion, so I'm going to type my explanation, and hope all who are interested check the crime scene photos.



Ok, first, I referred to the crime scene photos here very early on in my reading. The boards were all lit up with discussions about cut vs ripped, contamination, 46 days, and, I attempted to follow along.



I used the boards, the debate, testimony in evidence and the prosecution re-construction that was available. Try as I might, I DID not see what was being discussed.



So, I set about getting some bras to see if I could re-create what was being discussed. (Remember, I'm pretty visually oriented).



Here's what those crime scene pictures show.



First, when I deconstructed 5 bras from 5 different manufacturers it turns out that 4 of them are manufactured the same way. The bra clasp is a separate little piece of material, hooks on one end, sewn up on three sides uncluding the hook side, and shaped like an open pocket.

The bra itself in the back has that vertical cut, straight up and down, and this cut is made at the factory.



That cut edge slips into the clasp pocket and it is sewn once vertically. For re-inforcement, the pocket is then double stitched horizontally across the top and bottom.



The bra was initially pulled. Could have been done through the shirt, but the vertical stitching gave way and the hooks distorted, but the bra held. In order to see this, magnify the crime scene picture and look at that cut edge. The first 1/2 inch of that material is PRISTINE.



Anyone who has ever had a seam give way during washing will recognize the difference in color in this bra. First 1/2 inch is pure white. That is because it was INSIDE the pocket, not exposed to skin or wear.



When poor Meredith died, she lay on her shoulder. Her back was exposed, as was the back of her bra. You would be clearly able to see the hole and distortion.



Now, look at the clasp pocket itself. See the divot it the material on the end opposite the hooks? Why is the material indented there? Why is there slight discoloration?



The material is not under any stress there, it should not have distorted, unless..



Sollecito crooked his finger in there. He, in my opinion wanted to move poor Meredith's body and used the bra as a strap. He put his finger in there, distorted the material (his finger had Meredith's blood on it and discolored a portion,and then he pulled).



That tiny little piece came right off in the crook of his finger. And the pad of finger, in doing this lands directly on the hooks.



It happened 4 times when I did it. He simply dropped the piece and continued the clean-up.



I wasn't in court. I didn't see the actual bra. But I know what I see in these pictures.

The prosecution should not have tried to 'reconstruct' the attack. They should have deconstructed a bra. It's so obvious it's frightening.

Breaking news: 5.8 earthquake just northwest of Bologna. Damage and 15 people dead.

Hi Guys,

My name is Tom Wells. I will be upfront with you folks from the start. I am a big wrongful convictions guy. All of my research has led me to conclude that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito were wrongfully convicted. I read through all of the boards when I have time and I thought I would chime in.

I'm not sure how the forums work but I think you recently closed a forum thread and started a new one. At any rate, there were a couple of crucial points that you were talking about in the previous thread that I wanted to touch base on.

First is the postmortem lividity. Judge Micheli suggested that Meredith was on her side for a long period of time. His suggestion was based on the large amount of blood that collected on her shirt on her right shoulder. He also suggested that Meredith's bra strap left a marking on Meredith's body. He made these suggestions in an attempt to suggest staging of the crime scene.

I do not have access to crime scene photographs (as I am sure they would be protected out of respect for Meredith), but I have read the analysis of those who have seen the photos. I do not believe that any staging occurred and I do not think that Meredith was moved after death.

Bruce Fischer from Injustice in Perugia reports:

"With regard to lividity
The blood evidence on the floor shows that Meredith was moved long before any blood had a chance to begin to dry. Guede moved Meredith out of the large puddle of blood so he could sexually assault her. The prosecution's argument (that the guilters repeat) is that Meredith had a concentration of blood on her right shoulder. Meredith's shirt was actually soaked with blood from her left collarbone all the way to her right shoulder. This would relate to the position she was in, in the moments shortly after the fatal wound was inflicted, not her final position. She lost a lot of blood in a short amount of time. The accumulation of blood on her right shoulder was not the result of being in one position for a long period of time. The lividity was consistent with the position where she was found (spread evenly across her back). This evidence is indisputable when looking at the photographs. We cannot show these photos to the public so the guilters will always be able to make up whatever "facts" they like."

"The truth is plain to see in many of the photographs, even to an untrained person like myself. But as everyone knows, I do not pretend to be an expert. The expert analysis that we (IIP) based our conclusions on came not only from the defense experts at trial but also from Ron Hendry and Steve Moore, both experts in this field. Ron and Steve have roughly 70 years of combined experience when it comes to investigating crime scenes."

Injustice In Perugia continues on to say: "This photo shows what Micheli was talking about. The photo cropped from one of the photos showing Meredith's body. You can see the two parallel lines running on either side of the tile seam. There was a corresponding pattern on Meredith's back when her body was rolled over. It's obviously an artifact caused by the tile seam, not a mark left by her bra strap. Micheli concocted an unsupportable forensic claim that was never even hypothesized during the trial."

They provide this photograph to prove what they suggest. The photo should not open here ( I hope I did this correctly). I posted it as a link for those who do not want to see graphic photos.

http://i.imgur.com/1aVTN.jpg

Sorry for the long post but this information also goes along with topic.

Injustice In Perugia Reports:

"Below is a photo of the side panel of Meredith's wardrobe, adjacent to where her head was positioned when her body was found. Aspirated blood droplets are present on that side panel. That proves she was still breathing when she was moved into that position. Meredith was not moved after death. No staging occurred. The fact that she was still breathing when she was in the location that she died proves this. If anyone posts at .net on Tuesday, you might want to give this information to Michael. We have all of the crime scene photographs. We have all of the video. We know the truth about this case. If .net wants the truth, they need to open their eyes. If they would dedicate a few moments out of their lives to focus on the real facts, then maybe, just maybe, they would stop spewing hatred at innocent people. I know, its just wishful thinking."

http://i.imgur.com/O1mMf.jpg

Now, I know that you and the Foakers don't get along. That is a given. Nasty comments come from both sides I'm sure. I did not want to edit the quotes from Injustice In Perugia because I wanted to be accurate and clear. Please look past the comments directed at you and look at the actual evidence.

The blood on the wardrobe shows that Meredith was still breathing when she was in her final position. The blood evidence on the floor shows that Judge Micheli was wrong. There is also other evidence to show that Meredith's bra was removed before death. There are aspirated blood droplets on her bare skin where her bra would have been. Once again, I am told that these photos are protected out of respect for Meredith.

Keep in mind that Micheli is a judge, not a crime scene expert. His conclusions were not used in the Knox/Sollecito trial. I believe his conclusions were wrong. There was no staging.

I want to ask you one question and I ask that you put all your anger for Fischer, Lovering, Sforzo, and all the rest to the side for a moment and answer this one question.

My question is, do any of you have photographic evidence or any evidence of any kind to refute the information put forth by Injustice in Perugia?

Welcome to PMF, TomWells, and thank you for being honest up front. Your question, unfortunately, is rather convoluted, and, just my opinion, rather dishonest. You post a long argument which covers a whole lot of territory, but then ask us to answer a very narrowly framed question which serves only to reinforce your own argument. That is what we call dishonest debate, and I'll let it pass once, but, be warned. If it happens again, I'll ban you. Got that clear?

First of all, lividity: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lividity "Coroners can use the presence or absence of livor mortis as a means of determining an approximate time of death.... It can also be used by forensic investigators to determine whether or not a body has been moved (for instance, if the body is found lying face down but the pooling is present on the deceased's back, investigators can determine that the body was originally positioned face up).
Livor mortis starts twenty minutes to three hours after death and is congealed in the capillaries in four to five hours. Maximum lividity occurs within 6–12 hours. The blood pools into the interstitial tissues of the body"

So, while the Perugian medical examiner determined the body had been moved after death, and Judge Micheli and Massei concurred, you are presenting an argument made by Bruce Fischer, Ron Hendry, and Steve Moore, that the judge 'got it wrong'? Based not on autopsy photographs of the victim but selective blood splatter and smear photographs provided without context? Do you realize how idiotic that sounds to us? You present Ron Hendry and Steve Moore as having '70 years of experience' of what, exactly? Are they medical examiners? Ron Hendry is, as far as I can determine, an accident reconstruction specialist, and Steve Moore, an FBI agent who has never provided any meaningful details of his stay in the FBI, just G-man romances. But never mind. You come bearing the argument, so, please present the evidence. Do you have the autopsy photos to prove your argument? If not, move on.

Which brings me to what I dislike about the FOA. They have access to the FULL case file. That is how the Sollecitos released the video of poor Meredith's body to the Bari TV station and Jim Lovering gets to selectively dole out photos that seek to reinforce the defense argument only.

When Rose Montague, a long time FOA, has to ask for hint, hint, the full defense file, then it shows that something's very wrong in Amandaland. What are you hiding?

FOA

They are the ones not showing photos but making assertions anyway.

To be fair, I believe the moving of the body theory was only accepted by Micheli, and neither Massei nor Hellman (and possibly Mignini, though I'll be glad to concede if I'm wrong about him).

As far as the case file, is it possible that for legal or privacy reasons this can't be handed out to everyone and anyone? For instance, what is stopping PMF from requesting the prosecution's case file from Mignini or Maresca?

My entire post dealt with the theory that the crime scene was staged. There was absolutely nothing dishonest about it. I will try to be even more clear with my questions and I will do my best to answer yours. Not sure why any talk about banning anyone is necessary, but hey, that's your call.

Do you have the Perugian medical examiner's report stating that Meredith was moved after death?

The photograph of the wardrobe is a clear photo of the crime scene and not taken out of context at all. It shows aspirated blood droplets. It is very clear. Why do you suggest it is out of context?

Steve Moore spent 25 years investigating hundreds of murders worldwide. His expertise is indisputable. I understand if you don't like the guy but he's an expert.

Your borad has recently suggested that Meredith's body was moved after death. I am asking for proof to back that up. If Micheli is that proof then I accept that you believe Micheli. Is it too much to ask for you to support your claims?

Your views of Friends of Amanda are interesting. Are you asking them to release photos of Meredith's body? Don't you think that would be disrespectful?

My point is clear. How can you reach conclusions if you do not have the evidence. Would it not be better to say that we trust Micheli but we honestly don't know?

Ergon. do you believe that Meredith was moved after death?

This is not a topic for the courts because this topic was never discussed at trial. This is a topic for the online chat. This is a topic that has been used online to show staging. The problem is, no one has shown any proof.

You're making a fundamental mistake, much presented by the FOA. That if something is mentioned in a forensic report, the fact it wasn't mentioned in the judge's sentencing report means they 'didn't accept' a theory. Wrong. Motivations report are condensations of ALL the evidence presented (except when written by Judge Hellmann, it seems) so unless the judge specifically disallows an expert opinion, it does not infer he disagreed. Even Micheli focused mostly on other aspects of the staging, and Massei, completely so.

And the rules still stand. You come making assertions, you provide the hard evidence. The two photos pulled out of a hat, absent context, do NOT constitute evidence of anything. Nor is it our job to request the full case file. If we had it, we would at least make it available to independent investigators to verify the information is correct. This, you have singularly failed to do.

I posted the photo of the wardrobe and also of the tile floor that made the marking on Meredith's body. Are you asking the defense or Frienda of Amanda or Injustice in Perugia to release photos of Meredith's body? I am not sure what you are asking for.

Do the rules apply to everyone? It has been suggested on this forum that Meredith's body was moved after death. Do you have "hard evidence" to show this?

The photos I posted were not "pulled out of a hat" as you say. You can clearly see that the photos are from the crime scene and they coincide with the text I wrote.

Come on Ergon, lets be fair here. Its Tuesday. Your rules allow for friendly debate on Tuesdays. Can we play on a level playing field?

Humbug, TomWells. Your post dealt only with one aspect of proof of staging, and not "the theory that the crime scene was staged"

So, do YOU have photos of the lividity?

TomWells, welcome. Thank you for being upfront. I don't recall seeing your handle before on any of the case discussion comment areas or forums. What is the handle you commonly post under when discussing the case?




He didn't suggest it, he ruled it. What he also stated, was that the blood on the floor along with the print of Meredith's bra strap in it, showed that Meredith had been in that position whilst wearing the bra. The blood on the floor beneath her shoulder had then dried leaving the image of her shoulder and bra strap on the floor. Since she was not found in that position, Judge Micheli ruled that Meredith had died in that position, still wearing the bra. Then, at a later point some time after her death when the blood had died, someone removed the bra and then moved the body. The only reason to do that, was to stage the scene. The evidence supporting Micheli's findings is pretty conclusive.



So, you are going purely by the opinions of invested individuals who have only examined the case via the Internet and have limited access to the evidence? That doesn't sound like a strong position to me.



How exactly, does a tile seam create the imprint of a bra strap? Would you mind explaining the physics of that to us please?



This is completely irrelevant to the subject at hand. Meredith was assaulted and stabbed in front of the wardrobe, multiple times and went into her death throws in close proximity to it. As a result, there are numerous blood patterning marks on the front, inside and outside panel of the wardrobe and the blood Fisher refers to could have arrived there anytime during or immediately after the assault. It still does not change the fact that Meredith expired in a certain position on the floor while still wearing her bra and that the bra was fully removed and her body moved a long period after TOD.



Oh contrare. Before Judge Micheli became a criminal judge, he spent a career in the Carabinieri. Did you not know this? Moreover, Italian judges are not merely 'judges', as they are in America. Italian judges are trained investigators. Their role is not merely to judge a case, but to actually investigate it, either in the field or from the court room and in that role can order any investigations they see fit. This is why they are termed the "Experts of experts". Mignini, the prosecutor, is also a judge. Comparing them to American judges is like comparing apples and oranges. With Italian judges, think 'Judge Dredd', rather then 'Judge Judy'.

We're referring to Micheli's findings. You haven't disproved it yet, but, go for it.

No, I do not have photos of the lividity and I would never expect FOA or IIP to release them to an internet lurker like myself. I have sided with the group that has the information. They have done absolutely nothing to suggest they are not trustworthy.

You have decided to ignore every question I have posted. That is your prerogative. I have answered yours.

The staging in Meredith's room is based solely on the movement of her body after death. If her body was not moved, there was no staging.

Are you aware that Micheli's theory was never suggested in either Knox trial?

Do you believe that Meredith was moved after death?

I am surprised Bruce Fisher has decided to publish this photo. If anyone still had a doubt about the imprint of the bra strap he certainly managed to clarify that. The photo shows the imprint of the bra strap and not an artifact caused by the tile seam. Would you please ask Bruce Fisher to explain how the joint between the tiles could have caused an area on the floor that is void of blood? Shouldn't the blood concentrate in the joint instead of flowing away from it? The two parallel lines of accumulated blood mark both sides of the bra strap. Note that the lines caused by the bra strap aren't even parallel to the joint between the tiles and therefore unrelated.


EDIT: That was quick! Please see the attachment below for the original photo.



Even if she was still alive in her final position, I fail to see how this explains that her bra was taken off after the blood had dried. Please explain.



Judge Paolo Micheli is more qualified to make assertions about the presented evidence in court than Steve Moore or Bruce Fisher who both don't speak Italian, haven't seen the evidence presented in court and don't have a clue about crime scenes to begin with. According to Bruce Fisher's own admission he is fed with cropped crime scene photos from Jim Lovering, a friend of Chris Mellas.

Does anyone still remember the photos from the bathroom that Bruce Fisher published on his website, saying there was no blood, to excuse Amanda Knox's decision to take a shower in that bathroom? The photo was cropped to hide the bathmat with the huge blood stains on it.



But the truth is:



Judge Paolo Micheli ruled that Rudy Guede was a liar, that he had sexually assaulted Meredith Kercher and that he helped killing her. He also ruled that Rudy Guede wasn't the one who stabbed her. Rudy Guede lost his appeal and the appeal to the Supreme Court, both courts sided with Micheli's decision that Rudy Guede didn't act alone.

Hi Michael, I have not posted anywhere else. As I mentioned previously, I have followed all of the forums.

You wrote: "So, you are going purely by the opinions of invested individuals who have only examined the case via the Internet and have limited access to the evidence? That doesn't sound like a strong position to me."

Is this not your position as well?

Your wrote: "There are numerous blood patterning marks on the front, inside and outside panel of the wardrobe and the blood Fisher refers to could have arrived there anytime during or immediately after the assault."

The blood that Fischer showed is on the side of the wardrobe. This side panel would have not been in line with aspirated blood from the position Meredith was in when fatally wounded.

Your wrote: " It still does not change the fact that Meredith expired in a certain position on the floor while still wearing her bra and that the bra was fully removed and her body moved a long period after TOD."

This is not true Michael. There are aspirated blood droplets on Meredith's bare skin where her bra would have been. This proves that her bra was removed before death.


Are all members of the Carabinieri considered crime scene experts?

Do we agree that Micheli's conclusions were not used in the Knox/Sollecito trial?

I take it you also saw the photo of the bra strap in dried blood on the floor? That is the "hard evidence", or part of it at least.

How can one argue that Massei and Mignini believed the body was staged if, one, Mignini never argued that point in court, and two, Massei left it out of his theory of what Raffaele and Amanda did after the murder? That would have been a major part of the construction of the crime, and to leave it out makes little sense.
Your comments about the case file I find perplexing. Sorry, but I don’t understand what I have “failed to do” or what I “have to prove”. I made an educated guess that perhaps the case file can not for legal or privacy reasons be shared with random people on the internet, a point that you seem to agree with when you write that if you had the file you would “at least make it available to private investigators”. Is that not what was done by sharing it with Ron Hendry and Steve Moore?
You have stated a desire in owning the case file, so I repeat: Has PMF contacted any members of the prosecution asking for it? It’s just a question.

Nell, you and I are not experts but your claim does not make sense to me when I look at the photo. Are you honestly claiming that the bra strap was laying right on the tile seam? Look at the blood again. According to your observation that would mean that her bra strap must have ran up the other seam in the tile as well. The blood formed the same marking on that seam as well.

Bruce Fischer may not be a likable guy but he has posted every photo possible, with the exception of photos showing Meredith. He has many photos showing the bathroom with the bathmat. I'm not sure what you are suggesting Nell.

Are you aware of the fact that Micheli's theory was not mentioned in the Knox trial?

I have seen that photograph. The strap was soaked in blood. That is because Meredith lost a lot of blood when the fatal wound was inflicted. Her shirt was soaked as well. Meredith had lost an enormous amount of blood when Guede assaulted her. Her bra accumulated that blood before he ripped it off her as she laid there dying. He is an evil creature for what he did to Meredith. The thought of his actions make me want to vomit.

Nell wrote: "Even if she was still alive in her final position, I fail to see how this explains that her bra was taken off after the blood had dried. Please explain."

The bra wasn't removed after any blood dried. The bra was removed when Meredith was still breathing.

See you all next Tuesday. My time is up.

So, this is your first time posting on the case 'anywhere' is it?



No, we aren't invested. That's a crucial difference. Moreover, clearly, we have a greater understanding of Italian law and the Italian system. Finally, we also read the evidence presented in the judges reports and give it proper consideration, instead of dismissing them out of hand.



The blood could have gotten there at any point before she died. The point you are missing completely, is that the imprint of the bra strap demonstrates unequivocally, that was Meredith's final position when she died and later long after death she was stripped of her bra and moved OR she was placed into that position very shortly after her death by someone else and then after a long period of time moved once again into the position she was found and her bra removed. Either way, she was stripped of her bra and moved long after her death and the blood on the wardrobe is completely irrelevant to that fact.



No. The bra was rucked up over her breasts during the attack to enable the sexual assault, but not fully removed. The bra straps themselves remained on the body. The bra was not fully removed until long after the victim had died.



What, FBI members are crime scene experts but Carabinieri aren't? What about vehicle accident investigators?

How was that done without disturbing the perfect imprint of the bra strap, which would have been in wet and easily smeared blood? The imprint is clear and undisturbed. It is undeniable, that that blood was dry before either the bra was removed or the body moved to its final resting place.

And if Knox and Sollecito were involved, what would that make you want to do at the thought of them? I tend to get the impression from their apologists, that no matter what the two do, their actions are immediately forgiven and excused. It's nice to be privileged.

What imprint are you talking about? There is no imprint of the bra strap. The tile floor shows an imprint of bare skin on the tile. No bra imprint is present. The imprint on Meredith's body came from the tile, not the bra.

Not all FBI agents are crime scene experts. Steve Moore is. He has investigated hundreds of murders worldwide. Do you have proof that Micheli is a crime scene expert?

And yes, this is the first place I have posted.

You say that you read all of the judges reports, so have I. We just happen to like the conclusions of different judges, that's all. No investment on my part.

If Knox and Sollecito were involved, my thoughts for them would be the same. But they were not involved. I'm not an apologist. I look at facts. The facts show that Guede sexually assaulted and murdered Meredith, therefore I do not hold him in high regard. He is scum.

I'm still awaiting an explanation of the physics that enables a tiny tile seam to manufacture the imprint of a wide bra strap. How does that work exactly?

You sound absolute in your certainty.

Currently, you seem to be handwaving away the facts.

The imprint of the bra strap is clearly visible in the dried blood. I can only suggest, that you turn up the resolution on your PC.

How wide do you think a bra strap is? And Micheli's theory was not picked up by anyone else (other that this forum) so my guess would be that the imprint on Meredith's body was not convincing at all. The imprint on her body matches the photo I posted.

Are you suggesting that the imprint runs right across the tile seam?

And you source for this is? By the way, being a murder investigator doesn't necessarily make you a crime scene investigator. Crime scene investigators are the sciency guys. Just so you know, Steve Moore hasn't even read all the evidence in this case and most of what he has read he hasn't understood because he doesn't speak Italian. He even freely admits, he hasn't read the judges reports.

Yes, why not?

Do you speak Italian?

Is Micheli one of those "sciency guys"?

It's about as wide as that imprint on the floor. That's because the strap made it. What do you mean Micheli's theory was not picked up by anyone? We were talking about it here as soon as he first published his report and have commented on the fact many times since, both here and at other places! And we are not talkng about the imprint on Meredith's body, we are talking about the imprint of the bra strap in dried blood on the floor.

I'm still waiting to hear how the crack between the tiles generated the impression of the bra strap in blood on the floor.

No. Instead, I've had many people who do speak fluent Italian translate the evidence for us. You may have noticed for example, the translated Massei Report?

Is Micheli a sciency guy? Yes, since he investigates the scientific evidence of many crimes as his day job.

Steve Moore was a Supervisory Special Agent. From the FBI website:

FBI Special Agents don't get vibes or experience psychic flashes while walking around fresh crime scenes. Rather, it is an exciting world of investigation and research — a world of inductive and deductive reasoning; crime-solving experience; and knowledge of criminal behavior, facts, and statistical probabilities.

https://www.fbijobs.gov/611.asp

Yes, you like the report by the corporate judge, the judge that has no experienced or training whatsoever in criminal investigations.

In other words, worked behind a desk.

Steve Moore spent much of his career out in the field. He was sidelined for a time because he had cancer.

That's because it couldn't be. It wasn't allowed to be referred to under Italian law as it was the sentencing report for Rudy. Reports from one trial cannot be referred to in the trial of another until that individual has completed their appeals. Once Guede's appeals were over, then his sentencing report could be used. But, Knox and Sollecito had had their trial by that point.

There is no impression on the floor. The blood from Meredith's skin made the marking on the floor. The blood reacted the same way on both tile seams because Meredith's skin did not make direct contact with the lower surface.

There is no bra strap imprint on the floor. There is a marking on Meredith's body from the tile floor that Micheli suggested came from a bra strap. he was wrong. Meredith's body lines up with the photograph I posted.

In order to believe your theory, the strap had to line up perfectly with the tile seam and another strap of some sort had to line up perfectly with the vertical seam. You have a failed theory.

Michael, I was not suggesting that Micheli's exact work wasn't used at trial. No other experts suggested what Micheli suggested. His theory was not introduced in any fashion whatsoever.

The one single case he claims to have cracked, is the one where the murderer walked into the station and handed himself in and confessed.

And it doesn't address what I posted upthread and you've ignored:

I wonder what you will say about the Supreme Court when they confirm Hellmann's ruling. What will their incompetence be?

Yes they did. Guede's experts suggested it in his trial. But, they weren't involved in Knox's and Sollecito's trial. And there's lots of evidence in the 10,000 page evidence report that wasn't discussed in the trial. It didn't have to be, judges can consider evidence in the report even if it's not discussed in trial.

Jam tomorrow? I don't claim to have a crystal ball to know the future. I'm glad you're so certain though. And it needs to be remembered, the High Court will rule only on the technical correctness of Hellmann's appeal, not the evidence or Hellmann's/Zaneti's reasoning or conclusions. Knox also has another calunnia trial looming.

My ears are burning.

Tom,
I haven't see that photo before. What area of the floor is it from? Can you zoom out a bit?

A Knox groupie complained to the website where I hosted the crime scene photo and this was subsequently removed as requested. Knox groupies don't have any trouble when Bruce Fisher displays crime scene photos, so what was the issue here?

Now I hosted it elsewhere. Problem solved.

Why does it not surprise me that the FOAKers are trying to get evidence removed and hidden? They claim to be about the facts, when really they are about censoring them!

They would be in disagreement with all the other courts that have ruled on that case. Hellmann is the first one to even consider Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox weren't involved.

You're trying very hard to discredit Steve Moore, Michael, and it's not working.



http://www.injusticeinperugia.com/FBI.html

You can keep denying it's there until the end of time, but it doesn't make it go away.

If the supreme court upholds Hellman's verdict, that will be two higher courts deciding against two lower courts. Nonetheless, appeals to authority aren't as convincing as when independent third parties research this case and come to the same conclusion. Why is there no independent expert here at PMF who can vouch for Massei?
Greggy was the only DNA expert and he bailed when he realized an injustice had been done.

One doesn't have to work hard to discredit Steve Moore...it's all laid on. He's the gift that just keeps giving.

The photo with Meredith Kercher's bra imprint has never been published before to my knowledge. Bruce Fisher is the first to do that and claims it proves an "artifact caused by the seam of the tile", which it is clearly not. It is the imprint from the bra strap. Even a blind man can see that.

That's one way to shoot yourself in the foot.

It went away when Micheli stopped working on the case. Resurrecting it here doesn't make it true.

All of our resident members and experts, both present and former, are independent. Our goal is truth, whatever that may be. The FOAKer goal is agenda...argue Knox's innocence to the death, whether she did it or not.

Ad hominem's aren't convincing either, Michael.

Just because something isn't endlessly repeated, it doesn't mean it isn't correct. Just as, if something IS endlessly repeated, it doesn't mean it is true. I know you FOAKers have completely the opposite view on that though

There are no experts here. Greggy was the only one and he was man enough to admit his mistakes.
There are several experts who have come out in support for Amanda and Rafaelle, whose professional credentials can be verified. The same can't be said for PMF. If I'm wrong, please list the names of these experts and their credentials.

It's not ad hominem. He isn't here. And as for Steve Moore's useless record in this case when it comes to the facts and the evidence, it has already been discussed in depth on PMF and elsewhere and I therefore do not need to repeat what is on record.

We've had plenty of experts here. If you want to make stupid statements like this, please reserve them for IIP where drivel is applauded.

Is suppose because Matteini believed Rudy's Nike print was Raf's we should believe that too.

It should be easy to name one them. I'm not even asking for a list. Just one name.

And then some!

A bit like when Lovering published a still of Raffaele's cutlery draw.

Their names are already listed here, on the member list, along with their posts. I'm not playing this game with you or going down to that level. If that's what you want to do here, you can leave.

I'm surprised I have to cite the definition of ad hominem for you, Michael. "It's not ad hominem. He isn't here."
That's one for the history books.



http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ad%20hominem

She didn't 'believe' it, she accepted it as prima facie evidence against him on the basis of the preliminary investigation on the footprints at the time. And with good reason.

There is no innocent explanation for Amanda Knox's and Raffaele Sollecito's lies. There is no way Rudy Guede would enter the house messing up Filomena's room, but leaving with only her make up instead of her laptop. Rudy Guede wasn't the one who came back to the crime scene to take off Meredith's bra. Why did the rock that was supposedly thrown from the outside landed on top of the scattered clothes? Shouldn't it be the other way around?

They messed the room up and then they staged the break in, otherwise the clothes would have ended up on top of the glass shards and on top of the rock, not the other way around.

Asking you to name one expert on PMF is playing a game? Okay, Michael, you win.
I'll stop asking. I'm clearly in the wrong. My apologies to all the experts here! Wherever you may be!

Since Steve Moore is NOT HERE, he is not an "opponent" in this debate.

Informal warning: Stop taking the discussion off-topic.

About the glass on the clothes:

Alright, thanks, guys for another wonderful tuesday. Goodnight!

Did TomWells explain how the joint between the tiles caused the imprint of the bra strap? Did I miss it? Or was he just content with getting the crime scene photo removed from the original hoster?

Why? Maybe because the photo wasn't really supporting the point he was trying to make.

What has that got to do with anything? Thanks for quoting another FOAKer at us in your grand circle jerk, anyway. Glass was on top of the clothes. Fact. That has been well established. The crime scene photos on that element are all irrelevant, as the glass was all disturbed by Filomena Romanelli before they were taken. Multiple witnessess have confirmed the original placement of the glass.

No, just insisted it wasn't made by the bra strap...although neglected to explain how it WAS made.

Nina Burleigh wasn't present at any trial hearing. I don't know if she even speaks Italian. Other bilingual journalists who covered the trial have reported that the police took photos of Filomena's room only after she had been allowed to look through her things to say if anything was taken.

When the postal police arrived, they didn't know this would become a murder investigation. Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito both showed them Filomena's room with the broken window first and kept quiet about Meredith's locked door. When Filomena arrived she was asked to check if anything was missing. If the officers would have been aware that the main problem was Meredith, who was "missing", and the locked door, they might not have allowed anybody to look through their things as not to disturb the crime scene. Filomena and the police officers have testified in court that the glass was on top of the clothes.

Or when he published the details about Amanda's bank transactions he had received from Chris Mellas.

So, Steve Moore is a crime scene investigator? Yes, or no?

Actually, Nell, I was wrong...he did offer an explanation for the impression of the bra strap on the floor:



"Meredith's skin" made it apparently. Go figure. Earlier, it was made by the crack between the tiles. Go figure again.

And both Knox and Sollecito were shown the glass on top of the clothing that day by the Postal Policeman. Neither of them have ever denied this.

Okay, that's officially it for FOAKer Tuesday this week. I let it run on far longer then usual this time around. Thank you to all those who took part within the rules and the spirit in which it was intended. Regular members can of course continue the discussion.




Normal service will resume shortly.

What I suggest is that Bruce Fisher is by no means an impartial source, because by his own admission he is fed with privileged information from the case file from Jim Lovering, who is a close friend of Chris Mellas. Of course they won't share any photos that won't help their case. With the photo of the imprint, he made a glaring mistake. They usually publish photos after carefully cropping them to suit their argument. The bathroom photo shot published at IIP is an example of his attempt to manipulate the public.

Funny how the FOA want specific details about our contributors, yet aren't forthcoming about the 'experts' on THEIR team.

As far as I'm concerned, if they want to retain their anonymity, that should be sacrosanct, and not available to every Doug, Bruce and Michelle.

Yes, something important. My thoughts and prayers go out to the Italians today. They have suffered terribly with earthquakes and I hope there's no rise in the death toll. I'm also sorry for all the terrible damage to the beautiful architecture and heritage.


ETA: The BBC is reporting the death toll has now risen to 16. 14,000 evacuated.

Yep. And asking for the name of someone other then Greggy, when there's one right there on our staff.

Maybe they can release some more photos by next week. Do they have a foot they HAVEN'T shot?

Apparently the new storyline is that Bruce Fisher has yet another photo to prove these marks are caused by the tile seam, but he won't release it.



Is Bruce Fisher an expert? Why does he have more credibility to you than forensic experts and a criminal judge?



My observation is that the imprint is as long as the bra strap. You and Bruce Fisher say the imprint is caused by the tile seam or Meredith's body. It could have been everything except the bra strap according to you. But why would the imprint be so short, the length of the bra strap? Why doesn't it follow the whole tile seam where Meredith's body lay? Is there an explanation for this other than it was made by the bra strap of the same length?



How can you ascertain that he has posted every photo possible? Do you have access to the case file? Have you seen all the photos included to make a comparison? Bruce Fisher himself says the photo has been provided by Jim Lovering, so Jim is the one who has somehow privileged access to the case file, probably through his buddy Chris Mellas.

For someone who has never written on any forum as you claim, you have grown fond of Bruce Fisher very quickly, don't you think?

Okay, I stepped out for a bit and now I see that much of what I said has not been understood. Maybe I didn't explain it clear enough. Please forgive me this once for breaking the Tuesday rule. If you do decide to ban me then please keep this post online so people can see the truth about the photograph I posted.

There seems to be a lot of confusion here. Nell and Michael have not understood what I said. Meredith was found on her back with the majority of blood on her left side. Her right shoulder was not in a puddle of blood when she was in her final position. In the photo below you will see the blood start to become more evident as you pan from left to right, which would be going from Meredith's right shoulder to her left.

I added color and arrows to the photo to explain it more clearly.

If you look at the photo in the link below, Meredith’s skin made contact with the tile in the areas marked in yellow. The seams in the tile are lower than the surface that her body made contact with. The blood made a dark outline around Meredith’s body (purple arrows) and also made an outline on both tile seams (green arrows).

You are looking at the horizontal seam when you claim that a bra strap made that marking. That is incorrect. If you look at the vertical seam in the tile, you will see the same pattern. Look at the vertical seam. There is no blood in that seam and the blood stops at the edge of the tile right at the point where the tile surface starts to get lower.

The tile gets thinner at the edges. The blood stops where Meredith’s skin stops making contact with the tile. This is because the tile surface gets lower at the seam.

There is no bra strap marking on the tile because the bra was already gone at that point.

There is confusion about what I wrote about the marking on Meredith’s body as well. I have repeated that the tile made a marking on Meredith’s body that Micheli mistakenly took to be a marking from Meredith’s bra. The marking on her body came from the tile seam.

http://i.imgur.com/0C7Ih.jpg

I understand that after revealing this photo which undermines everything that has been claimed from camp Knox about the staging of the crime scene that it is an urgent matter that you feel must be disputed immediately and cannot wait until next Tuesday. Still, I have to advise you that next time you feel the need to post a response, save it in a text file and publish your comment on a Tuesday. Respecting the Tuesday rule in this forum is a matter of courtesy.



We understood fine. You said the joint caused the imprint and there is still no reason to believe that.



In the photo you so kindly provided it shows that there are only two dark outlines - apparently made by the bra strap. Look at the position, it's where Meredith's bra strap would have been. How long is it? As long as the bra strap. How wide is it? As wide as the bra strap. There are only two dark outlines, so your argument they are related to the horizontal and vertical seams is idiotic.



That is not correct. Just look at the photo you provided. Inside the blood puddle, there are only two dark outlines. The two dark outlines have nothing to do with the seams and that is well illustrated by the photo Bruce Fisher provided. If it had anything to do with the seam, the dark outline would be as long as the seam. It is not.



The two straight outlines are the ones that mark the bra strap. It has nothing to do with the tiles or the seams.



That is definitely untrue and we know that because of the blood drops that have been found on the bra cups.



How can the seams, that are lower than the tiles, make a mark on Meredith's body?

You said yourself you are not an expert and we know Jim and Bruce aren't experts either (one is a family friend and the other one used it to make a quick buck out of it), so doesn't that make your comment (and those of Jim and Bruce) just empty assumptions based on nothing but thin air?

I have to admit I did enjoy playing sascha ben cohen for a day, complete with funny hat. Didn't someone call us Kim and little Kim once?