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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:26 pm 
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ROFL


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:49 pm 
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Who got the goods on David Letterman? Could it have been ace PI Paul Ciolino?


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 Post subject: Wheels spin
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:30 pm 
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This was in today’s edition of a local Italian newspaper here in Australia.


Meredith murder
Amanda’s father: My daughter is innocent, evidence contaminated

“Amanda called me distressed and told me how the body of her roommate had been found. It was a dramatic day for all of us.”

So said Curt Knox, Amanda’s father, regarding the murder of Meredith Kercher, the English student killed in Perugia, for which Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito stand accused.

“The night before the murder,” continues her father, “our daughter had spent her time in the company of her boyfriend Raffaele. When she returned to her house to have a shower, she found the door open. So, she went back to her boyfriend to tell him about the feeling of apprehension that that open door engendered in her. Then, together, they decided to have another look in the house. It was at that moment that they discovered her friend’s body.”

“I believe it is important to look at all these events to better understand better what happened. In any case,” the father reaffirms, “the arrest of our daughter happened only after 90 hours. During this course of time, Amanda was placed under a 40-hour interrogation. Even more, during the interrogation she was hit on the head. Put simply, she was placed under enormous stress.”

“In all this,” he reminds us, “we must not forget that my daughter, who did not understand Italian fluently, was never granted any interpreter.”

La Fiamma: Quotidiano Italiano d’Australia, Anno LXI N.192),
“The Flame” (or “The Torch”, as in “memory”): an Australian Italian Daily, 61st year, number 192
02 October 2009, page 4






So, I haven’t missed anything important in the last three or four days, then.

In any case, experiеnced motorists know that when the wheels spin, the car is bogged down in the sand (and it is time to climb out, some of them would add).

Truth to tell, there is an air of lawyerly hopefulness wafting through from behind these words.


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:40 pm 
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blimey. Just where do they get off (get out of the car). Never granted any interpreter? This hasn't been translated back and forth, has it?


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:08 pm 
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Hi

I've got a few of questions.

* Was any of Rudy's DNA found in the bathroom or Filomena's room?

Curt Knox repeatedly claims that because Knox's DNA wasn't found in the murder room, she can't have been there.

Can't the same be said for Rudy's DNA in the bathroom? If Rudy's DNA isn't in the bathroom, or in Filomena's room, it can't have been him cleaning up in the bathroom and supposedly breaking in through Filomena's room.

Of course this is all academic if I'm ill-informed and his DNA was in fact found in both of those rooms.

* The defense claimed in pretrial that several people's DNA were found on the bra clasp - is this correct? Did it come up in court?

* Micheli wrote in his report that there is evidence the victim's body was moved some time after the murder. Did this come out in court?

* The photo Frank has of the bloody footprint on the pillow looks VERY much like the print of a Nike Outbreak shoe as Rudy wore. I understand there's dispute about the size of the shoe but if you go by the print mark alone, it's very similar. Did the Asics tennis shoe they believe it is have similar marking on the sole?

Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:54 pm 
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neils wrote:
Hi

I've got a few of questions.

* Was any of Rudy's DNA found in the bathroom or Filomena's room?

Curt Knox repeatedly claims that because Knox's DNA wasn't found in the murder room, she can't have been there.

Can't the same be said for Rudy's DNA in the bathroom? If Rudy's DNA isn't in the bathroom, or in Filomena's room, it can't have been him cleaning up in the bathroom and supposedly breaking in through Filomena's room.

Of course this is all academic if I'm ill-informed and his DNA was in fact found in both of those rooms.

* The defense claimed in pretrial that several people's DNA were found on the bra clasp - is this correct? Did it come up in court?

* Micheli wrote in his report that there is evidence the victim's body was moved some time after the murder. Did this come out in court?

* The photo Frank has of the bloody footprint on the pillow looks VERY much like the print of a Nike Outbreak shoe as Rudy wore. I understand there's dispute about the size of the shoe but if you go by the print mark alone, it's very similar. Did the Asics tennis shoe they believe it is have similar marking on the sole?

Thanks




Hello Neils and welcome to PMF!!! :)

To answer your question, no, none of Rudy's DNA (or prints or anything else from him) was found in either Meredith's/Amanda's bathroom, or in Filomena's room (and he was supposed to have broken into and ransacked that, according to the defence). Of course, his unflushed stool was found in the large bathroom belonging to Laura/Filomena. His DNA was also found in there.

Of course, it's the same argument. If one is to suggest that the absence of DNA, prints or anything else removes one from being involved in the murder, it by default removes Rudy from having broken into Filomena's and rifled her room. For the record, Laura's purse was also rifled through in her room, yet there's no trace of Rudy there either, so the same argument applies there too.

As for the bra, there were 5 profiles on the bra clasp...two high profiles - Merediths and Raffaele's, and three very low profiles, hhardly discernable in the noise. The other two were those of unknown females. These were probably the profiles of Filomena and Laura, since the girls shared washing facilities, lived together and the police didn't take DNA samples from Laura and Filomena anyway.

As for the shoe prints on the pillow, one needs to be careful which footprint one's being shown. It is known that there are at least 2 footprints on the pillow. One of these is Rudy's, the other matches the size of Amanda. I have to say, personally, I'm very wary of Frank.

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"Wow. Just wow. I'm speechless. I was just a fuckin visa to
you."
~ Kelsey Kay to Raffaele Sollecito


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:16 pm 
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From Il Messaggero:
Kercher process. The Ivorian heading for the appeal. Meanwhile a new ‘giallo’ (crime) opens on the victim’s bank records. Psychiatric evaluation for Rudy “Didn’t escape, was devastated by the stress.” The fight of the consultants begins.
By ITALO CARMIGNANI
And VANNA UGOLINI

There is a new test, a psychiatric report which explains his escape after the murder of Meredith: The hearing for Rudy reopens.
The request was made by Valter Biscotti and Nicodemo Gentile, lawyers for the young Ivorian, (already condemned at abbreviated trial to 30 years for the killing of Meredith Kercher) are seeking to reopen some of the chapters of the investigations that judge Paolo Micheli leaned to a severe punishment. Is the last chance, the last possibility to make ‘the basket before time out,’ the jump that could turn the game for the former Ivorian athlete who touched the success on the basketball courts and crashed instead into the abyss to a sentence that will make him remain locked long in a cell. Lawyers for Rudy during recent months have worked to find evidence, which could lighten the burden of the heavy sentence. And believe they found them. There is a request for a psychiatric evaluation, and then the investigations carried out by a private investigator by the name that, in the field of 007 private I’s, appears to be a guarantee, Franco Ponzi. Even a new witness would be willing to speak before the courts and to give credence to the words of Rudy. Then there is also a number of expert reports, signed by Alessandro Meluzzi psychologist and criminologist Vincenzo Mastronardi, which will explain some of the behaviors that Rudy has had and that the prosecution and the judge branded as criminal. A month and a half for the beginning of the appeals process in which Rudy plays everything, (the first hearing November 18)large-scale maneuvers begin to overcome, at least the first obstacle: the reopening of a part of the hearing. Defense believes “that there is essentially a new test that modifies the contents of a test that already exists," for which they seek "the partial replacement of the hearing.” “Because the key that the judge gives on Rudy’s behavior even after the fact (says the lawyer Nicodemo Gentile) becomes fundamental to recognize the criminal liability of the accused, we are requesting to prepare a technical consultant advice regarding the evaluation and analysis of Rudy’s behavior after he went away from Meredith’s house.”
http://tinyurl.com/yd3qeng


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:20 pm 
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Il Messaggero.
(my translations)

“Rudy under shock, wasn’t seeking to escape”
His defense request to the Court of Appeals. The ‘Giallo’ gets complicated.

To strengthen this request Lawyer Gentile explains to have found a number of elements that support their claim:

"It is a disorder classified in the international manual for classification and diagnosis of various diseases and mental disorders, with relative dissociative amnesia.” According to the lawyer "is important not to overlook that Rudy’s escape did not happened immediately, but after a few days. And without a precise direction, arrives in Germany, where he knows nobody.” Then: "Rudy does not get rid of his track, does everything to get in touch with his friends, with his family in fact, seeding signals of his movements, contacts the Mancini’s and the Benedetti’s through the internet, Messenger, obsessively. It constantly asks to be helped.”

According to Gentile, the chat between Rudy and Benedetti is important, because it is genuine and there is “a clear intention of Rudy to join friend Giacomo in Milan and hand himself to the police, so much so, that in at least five occasions, the accused tells the friend of wanting to go to give himself up directly to a police station in Germany, just to prove as soon as possible his innocence."

Thus, according to Nicodemo Gentile is not a flight to ensure the impunity, "but a pathological escape, an acute stress disorder, one that takes over when the person experienced a traumatic event that involves the death or the death threat or serious bodily injury. Acute stress disorder is accompanied by signs of dissociate amnesia, which is manifested by an unexpected escape from the place, inability to remember."

In short, if Rudy really was to be the murderer, he wouldn’t have had this strange behavior, of requesting help from friends, and would have gone off immediately: he had time, since the cushion with his bloody hand print was examined by forensic much later.

Rudy's lawyer doesn’t break even on the latest twists from the defense of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, (lawyers Ghirga, Maori and Bongiorno) the other two youngsters accused of being the killers of Meredith, who are on trial these months in the Court Assize: as in saying Raffaele’s computer accessed by someone who entered his house while he was questioned at police headquarters and the hard objections to the methodology of analysis of the scientific police. “Is a legitimate defensive act but absolutely predictable. You try to cast doubts on the activity of investigation without providing any serious evidence.” Then, according to Gentile “every evidence is to be assess within the general context, and the context speaks of changing versions on the part of the two accused who fit badly in the role of an innocent”. But lawyers of the two youngsters accused of being the murderers continue, instead, on this path, in the wake of the success of the expertise sought by the judge in the Garlasco case that reverse the situation of the young suspect.

If two days ago, lawyer Luca Maori showed that on a bloody pillow found under the victim's body there was a patch, a biological trace never analyzed and that their biological expert, Francesco Vinci, found only a few months ago, when he could see the actual exhibit, new documents arrive today via Interpol that opens another smaller crime. Basically going to solve what has been considered for the defense of Amanda and Raffaele “a mystery”, for the prosecution, however, is evidence that Meredith’s credit cards were used by the killers the day after she died and that only someone who was close to her could know the pin-codes. However, it also opens new questions.

The banking transactions made by the victim’s credit bank had pointed out to the evidence, in effect; that a transaction seemed was made on November 2, at San Paolo Institute of Perugia, when Meredith was already dead. But the documents that have now arrived from the original bank, Nationwide, including the defense’s, show that the fact that withdrawal on November 2, of 13 euro in fact was done October 31 and November 2 was the accounting date. However, the documents also specify that this news was in the hands of investigators from the start, in the days after the murder and the effective date of the transaction “appears written in pen on the original document.”

Then, according to Sollecito’s defense, sustaining, part of the accusation, that there had been a withdrawal the day after Meredith was killed would be further evidence of the much discussed “theory” at the hearing.Or rather, the effect that all the clues that have emerged in the investigation are not there, according to the defense, were calmly read but "direct" (sometimes "bend") to uphold the accusatorial theory.
All in all, in view of the next hearing, during which there will be a request for new expert report by the defense of both defendants, the climate is already overheated and the start of cross battles will raise the level. The question that all those involved in this process put in these days is only one: can a court of assize, in an atmosphere so tense and with a total gap between the consultants, that of the prosecution and the defense, choose to decide without further verification, the fate of two young people?
http://tinyurl.com/y8tgyw9


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 Post subject: GET OUT THE INK BLOTTERS
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:39 pm 
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Jools wrote:
Il Messaggero .....
“Rudy under shock, wasn’t seeking to escape”
.....
"It is a disorder classified in the international manual for classification and diagnosis of various diseases and mental disorders, with relative dissociative amnesia.” According to the lawyer "is important not to overlook that Rudy’s escape did not happened immediately, but after a few days. And without a precise direction, arrives in Germany, where he knows nobody.” Then: "Rudy does not get rid of his track, does everything to get in touch with his friends, with his family in fact, seeding signals of his movements, contacts the Mancini’s and the Benedetti’s through the internet, Messenger, obsessively. It constantly asks to be helped.”

On first glance, I would say that Biscotti has been inspired by Ghirga, and has hired the same psychologist to say that Rudy too was stressed, and that caused him selective memory loss and whacky behaviour.

((It looks like the 007 private eyes hired by Biscotti were as effective in finding new evidence to help Rudy, as Paul the Cherubic PI was in finding evidence and doing tests which would favour Amanda))


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:50 pm 
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Jools -

Thanks for those Jools. The way that last article was talking, they reckon it's almost certain that a super-expert will be appointed. That means a delay of 2 months. That'll make things interesting, because it'll mean Rudy's appeal will be well underway by the time their trial resumes. That'll give Rudy and his defence the chance to do Amanda and Raffaele some damage. I wonder if Biscotti will try and throw the cat among the pigeons by putting Rudy on the stand quickly.

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"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike

"Wow. Just wow. I'm speechless. I was just a fuckin visa to
you."
~ Kelsey Kay to Raffaele Sollecito


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:23 pm 
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Is Rudy's appeal being heard in Perugia? :)


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:27 pm 
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I'm assuming so. Maybe even in the same court room, but on different days :)

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"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike

"Wow. Just wow. I'm speechless. I was just a fuckin visa to
you."
~ Kelsey Kay to Raffaele Sollecito


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:30 pm 
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Ta :D


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:33 pm 
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oops


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:33 pm 
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LOL or should that be "hoopla"


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:44 pm 
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Although there was no Knox/Sollecito court hearing this week. Both prosecutors have been very busy with other cases.

PM Manuela Comodi with a recent murder case:
http://tinyurl.com/yemggvs

Giuliano Mignini still prosecutor in the Narducci pre-trial against the 22 people suspected of misleading the investigation and presume hiding of the cause of death and links of the Dr' Narducci's death to the monster of Florence murders.
http://tinyurl.com/y926dej


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:11 pm 
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blackman found blackman guilty

guedoes story

within 2 hours what happened there in perugia what happened

WHAT HAPPENED LEGAL EXPERTS??? DO YOU PROVIDE ANSWERS? IN WINNING YOUR LEGAL CASE HAVE YOU FOUND AN ANSWER? HAVE YOU?


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:03 pm 
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Thanks Jools for posting the two articles and the translation.

From what I read there about Rudy Guede's appeal, I have the impression that he basically does what Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito do: shifting the blame. I think it is improbable that any of the three defendants will accept the responsibility for what they have done. Nobody will spill the beans, just damage control.


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:08 pm 
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Have these experts been forced to admit that committing murder will stress you out, too?


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:37 am 
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A double edged sword.

In isolation, finding no Amanda DNA in Meredith's bedroom seems exculpatory, and the Knox/Mellas clan likes to emphasize the fact as a talking point. In the LARGER context, however, the Forensic Police NOT finding Amanda's DNA in Meredith's room incriminates Amanda, because it incriminates Raffaele.
How can Raffaele's DNA migrate to Meredith's bra clasp---precisely where, if guilty, one would expect to find it--- while Amanda's DNA migrates to NOWHERE detected in the room? Amanda was a resident of the cottage, with a bedroom nearest to Meredith's, and shared a bathroom with Meredith, while Raffaele had only visited a few times. And a substantial sample of Raffaele's DNA was on the clasp. If Raffaele's DNA was found---and found there due to migration--- Amanda's DNA should have been found too. It wasn't.
The absence of detected Amanda DNA in Meredith's bedroom implies that Raffaele's DNA appears on the clasp not because of DNA migration, but because Raffaele gripped the clasp, and cut it from the bra. In which case both of the inseparable lovebirds were at the cottage that night.

/////


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 4:37 am 
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Jools wrote:
But the documents that have now arrived from the original bank, Nationwide, including the defense’s, show that the fact that withdrawal on November 2, of 13 euro in fact was done October 31 and November 2 was the accounting date.

Minor detail. Somebody thought 20 USD and converted that into euros? It was 20 euros.


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 Post subject: let it be
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 7:29 am 
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knox prison diary extract:

"'let it be, let it be let it be let it be there will be an answer let it be let it be let it be let it be whisper words of wisdom let it be"

"So I wait .. the waiting is pain because it is waiting without life life as life passes me by but im waiting still, because it is all I can do. I think about my freedom and it is what I do to keep going because I know I will be free. I will be with my family and my friends and I will be able to live the life I've always seen myself living: travelling, marrying, having children, writing, speaking, helping, dancing - free. Loving. Here is no place for love"


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 9:43 am 
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the knox case film : amanda knox as amanda knox solleceto as the boyfriend rudy guede as the transient black now in jail convicted (rape and murder) migini the much maligned prosecutor edda mellas the mother of knox, curt knox the father a cast of thousands (mostly lawyers) the UK press the italian press a cameo appearance by the very italian father of solleceteo ... byline "money can make water flow uphill" (what the father told solleceteo in a tapped phone conversation) at your cinemas soon ...


Last edited by ttrroonniicc on Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:30 am 
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From The Times on the CBS 48 hours producer.

Mr Halderman, 51, is a producer on the CBS news programme 48 Hours, which specialises in investigating and recreating real-life mysteries including the disappearance of Madeleine McCann and the murder of Meredith Kercher.
CBS, which also broadcasts the Letterman show, issued a statement saying an employee a 48 Hours was involved in the investigation and yesterday on charges of attempted grand larceny.

“The employee has been suspended pending the results of the investigation,” the network said. “Mr. Letterman addressed the issue during the show’s broadcast this evening, and we believe his comments speak for themselves.”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 858717.ece


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:41 am 
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I've read in an article written by Barbie Nadeau that Chris Mellas had an account at myspace with interesting content. Even though the account has been already deleted, it might be still available in Google cache? I couldn't find anything. Has anybody screenshots or is able to find it still in the Google cache?

The link to Barbie Nadeau's article is here.

Thank you in advance!


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:43 pm 
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Michael wrote:
Jools -

Thanks for those Jools. The way that last article was talking, they reckon it's almost certain that a super-expert will be appointed. That means a delay of 2 months. That'll make things interesting, because it'll mean Rudy's appeal will be well underway by the time their trial resumes. That'll give Rudy and his defence the chance to do Amanda and Raffaele some damage. I wonder if Biscotti will try and throw the cat among the pigeons by putting Rudy on the stand quickly.



So not content with taking one life Knox et al are intent on prolonging the misery of the other Kercher family members.

What will it take for them to give up and finally face the music?
band-)
Knoxes/Mellas, if you are reading this, this is the story of the rest of your lives.....
v-))
I'm no expert but common sense tells me that murder has a negative effect on the perpetrators and anyone connected to the crime even indirectly. There are children
in your family being confronted with all the details of this horrible crime simply because you are dragging them into this situation with your denials and publicity seeking and rallying around Amanda. After the trial, irrespective of whether or not Amanda is sentenced these children in your family have to go back to living a normal life. But normal to them will turn out to be being called names (and some very vile names) by other kids at school, being bullied and picked on by other children in the neighbourhood simply because they're related to Amanda. Suffice to say that they will be living with this stigma for the rest of their lives and the chances are it
will not be 'happily ever after'. It will change them, affect their education, their relationships with other people, their future happiness. Have you prepared them for all this suffering? And are you prepared to put them through this?
dis-))
Yes, they could change their schools and move to a different neighbourhood but wait! - your faces have been plastered over all the newspapers for months and months and soon after you get recognised and Hell starts all over again.
hb-))
In addition to this, Curt/Edda, you have spent your life savings on your ludicrous PR campaign for Amanda. At some point in time the rest of the children, and Mr C Mellas and Mrs C Knox will start to resent that all this money has been wasted in such a way. What about your retirement funds, health insurance, college funds? All gone on Amanda. That's going to hurt one day. I don't know that money is the root of all evil but it certainly causes a lot of arguments between a married couple and who knows how many of these arguments end in the divorce courts?
ar-))
Oh yes of course, you can turn to the press and sell a story or two? Write a book and earn millions? That is, if the Kercher family have not requested a legal injunction to prevent you from capitalising on the murder of their daughter. There will be no end of well-wishers with legal expertise to offer their advice to the Kerchers to prevent you from getting a penny.
pro-)
Also, there will be no end of haters waiting among the press to throw rotten eggs at you, walking past your house and throwing bricks through your windows, unmentionables through your letter box. It may only take one fanatical hater to make your life hell and it could turn out to be the press.
fen-)
Remember, every time you sell your story you are keeping the memory of this murder alive including the hate campaign against you. I'm sorry but this is human nature. I know it is unacceptable and not right but you should be grateful that it is a very very small percentage of people who will resort to actually personally persecuting you. It may only take one person to make your life hell and they could be living right next door to you.
tou-)
At some point in time you will weary of this hate campaign. Judging from your reactions to date you all have a very short fuse.You may act out of character, do
something you regret. Whatever, you will feel deep deep anger. It may only take one person to make your life hell and it could end up being you.
gang-)
Of course you can always ask the authorities to protect you, provide you with a new identity, move you to a new location. But remember, you will have to start over from scratch, no money, no friends, no history. No more saying 'Amanda is innocent'. But wait! - your faces have been plastered over all the newspapers for months and months so what is the point - Hell will start all over again that's for sure.
sh-))
Just don't expect to be relocated to Italy - they won't have you! In fact, you can scratch all visits/holidays to Italy - it will be a no-go area for you guys for the rest of your lives. Yes it will be hell not being able to visit Italy - where Amanda is imprisoned.
wg-)) n-((
After the trial has ended and Amanda is convicted all those people who said nice things about her will choose to sell their stories to the newspapers however the
things they say won't be 'nice' anymore. Yes these so-called friends will turn on you for ready cash. It's hell isn't it?
:cry:
Are you getting the picture Knoxes/Mellas? Ask yourself, is it really worth it? Is Amanda worth all of this?
wa-)) n-((
Face it, Amanda has made the rest of your life hell.
cl-)
But it is nothing in comparison to what she did with Meredith's life. rip-)

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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:50 pm 
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But there is evidence of AK in Meredith's bedroom: her lamp.

(I don't know whose, IF any, DNA was found on it, but the lamp is suspect. Oh I know, the lamp and the cat did it.)


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:38 pm 
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I just had a little read at the cook's. I just wanted to warn others that recent postings there will turn your stomach. Worse than Frank's in many respects.


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:50 pm 
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Today I had lunch with two italians (verona). They are convinced of rg's and rs's guilt, but
their gut feeling told them that ak is innocent.


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
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The DNA on the bra clasp places Raffaele at the scene. Amanda says she was with Raffaele all night. It's not hard to figure out.

Perhaps when the dust settles, they will stay up late some night talking to a cell mate. Searching for absolution. Then, perhaps, the truth will emerge.


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
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More on the CBS 48 hours producer from the NY Times. The Ms. Birkitt referred to is Letterman's long-time assistant:

"At the same time, the man accused in the case, Robert Joel Halderman, known as Joe, who until last month shared a residence in Connecticut with Ms. Birkitt, is a longtime and well-respected producer for the CBS News program “48 Hours Mystery.”

Mr. Halderman, 51, pleaded not guilty to one count of attempted larceny, after he reportedly threatened to expose Mr. Letterman. According to prosecutors, Mr. Halderman gave Mr. Letterman, 62, a one-page screenplay treatment depicting the talk-show host as a great success whose “world is about to collapse around him” with revelations of his trysts. Mr. Halderman also handed over photographs, correspondence and a page of the personal diary of Ms. Birkitt."

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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:10 pm 
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bucketoftea wrote:
I just had a little read at the cook's. I just wanted to warn others that recent postings there will turn your stomach. Worse than Frank's in many respects.


I find it impossible to read that blog. I never did much like nuts. As for Frank's, a sweep and weep once a week is more than enough for me. Maybe if no one went there any more, it would cease to exist.

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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:23 pm 
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Skeptical Bystander wrote:
bucketoftea wrote:
I just had a little read at the cook's. I just wanted to warn others that recent postings there will turn your stomach. Worse than Frank's in many respects.


I find it impossible to read that blog. I never did much like nuts. As for Frank's, a sweep and weep once a week is more than enough for me. Maybe if no one went there any more, it would cease to exist.

I can’t even read the lies the posters of those sites barf out like cats vomiting on their own hair balls. IMHO:

It’s my take if Amanda were innocent her family would be pulling together fighting like dogs to PROVE her innocence as she herself would be. Instead knowing she is completely guilty the best they can do is sell her to the highest bidder like rare meat dangling from a hook in some yak dung smelling desolate village – the flies are swarming around her like directors, producers, reporters and the Cook are doing every day. There is no shame left to barter and they are so ignorant and small they don’t even see that they are being used by the peddlers and gypsies.

If AK wasn’t so repressed by this grossly dysfunctional family she would break from the pressure they are imposing on her. This is one piece of justice I hope for. If she breaks she will reveal to the whole world what a detestable family she comes from and this very well may be the ticket to earn her some pity and a lighter sentence – and possibly to get the help she so desperately needs. Unfortunately her “support group” will never, ever let that happen since they are so f@*ked up themselves.

And Raffaele? He’s such the pervert he needs to be locked away for life. I pity any professional having to deal with him, he’s just plain spooky. While he may claim to have been a virgin he is obviously well experienced with pervert magazines he could have stolen from his father’s nightstand. God bless his mother but that relationship sure has large helpings of dark mystery.

Raffaele was perfect for Amanda infusing the sort of wicked and wonderful temptation of evilness that comes with pranks and mutual masturbation. They know nothing of love and compassion but only of spontaneous and twisted self gratification. These traits are seen at the core of both of their families.

I don’t believe either of them would have necessarily acted out their aggressions on their own but with having had just enough time for their minds to meet and in mutual agreement fused a common bond it’s not surprising to see their acting out their own angers in what could have been a game of competition one to the other. You see this “bet” continuing that one can outdo the other in withstanding the pain, a welcome feeling they embrace, deeply satisfying their souls because they alone own it and because the only other feeling they know from their parents they know is just all wrong. What their parents try to force feed them is deceptive bullshit which anyone should find repulsive.

Identity. Sometimes it comes at a high price. For Meredith it came at too high a price. She was murdered because of all the love and goodness she represented which neither Raffaele nor Amanda would ever have. Meredith will always be embraced with our love and compassion. Meredith was truly loved and admired because of her bright and beautiful spirit; she will be forever missed.

Justice is coming. r-((

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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 7:40 pm 
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Shirley wrote:
But there is evidence of AK in Meredith's bedroom: her lamp.

(I don't know whose, IF any, DNA was found on it, but the lamp is suspect. Oh I know, the lamp and the cat did it.)



Hi Shirley. This is very true. And of course, it isn't just the fact that it was in Meredith's room, but also how it was positioned along with how and where Meredith's lamp was positioned. However, were Amanda's DNA or fingerprints on the lamp, I can't see how that might act as evidence, since as it was her lamp, we'd expect to find her DNA and prints on it as a result of her using it during the time it was in her own room.

As a side note, we have two theories on the lamps. The first being they were used in a 'nose to floor' clean-up. The second, that they may have been used to look for something that had been lost in the struggle, such as a ripped out ear ring or stud. Recently, somewhere else, I read a third theory - the poster said the use of lamps reminded him of someone providing light for the use of a camera and that the attack may have been filmed by the attackers. A rather chilling thought.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike

"Wow. Just wow. I'm speechless. I was just a fuckin visa to
you."
~ Kelsey Kay to Raffaele Sollecito


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 8:59 pm 
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From Il Messaggero today.
The consultant:
“Rudy’s writing tells he told the truth”

After the demand to reopen in part the trial charge of Rudy Guede to obtain a psychiatric evaluation, his lawyers, Valter Biscotti and Nicodemo Gentile have entrusted to Vincenzo Mastronardi an expert consultant on graphology Rudy’s handwriting. The appeals process for Rudy, that in his first degree trial, chose to defend himself with the abbreviated rite, will begin November 18 with the request, in fact, to partly reopen the proceedings for the acquisition of new evidence. Among those is also a psychological consultation by Alessandro Meluzzi and the results of the private investigations by Franco Ponzi.
----
Rudy’s consultant:
In his writings from Germany the mirror of his problems.
"Not lies, disturbance of memory"

The cards are ready and not just those of the process studied and restudied. There are new experts consultants to evaluate the disconnected behaviors Rudy had after the murder of Meredith Kercher. The girl came to Perugia to prepare herself for life and job opportunities, and instead, here, she fell under the blows of the folly of one or more, of her peers two years ago. Along comes also a graphological test signed by Professor Vincenzo Mastronardi, a psychiatrist, criminologist and professor of forensic Psychopathology from the faculty of Medicine, at the "La Sapienza" University.
Mastronardi had immediately analyzed the handwriting of the three involved in the murder for one of his publishings, and, though still lacking a profounder vision, says: “Rudy does not tell lies, has a problem of memory organization and a disturbance of the personality but his words are substantially true.”
For Meredith’s death, at present is on course the trial in the court of Assizes against Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox, one of the girls who shared the apartment with the victim. Rudy had chosen a faster way, a preliminary hearing process in the hope that the evidence gathered by the prosecution and, above all, his reconstruction of the events of that night were enough to convince the judge Paolo Micheli of his innocence. It did not happen, for him there has been already a sentence to thirty years last October, with the charge, as well of complicity in the murder also of sexual violence, a crime that took Rudy into a section relatively harder in Viterbo prison, where he is serving his sentence. Among his “arm” companions, for example, there is also that Mario Alessi who killed the little Tommaso Onofri after abducting him "because he was crying."
It’s from his cell that Rudy requests, crying out loud, to be able to speak again and explain what really happened. For this reason he wrote a letter to the judges at the Court of Appeals to ensure that his trial, proceeds with open doors (public) and asked his attorneys, Valter Biscotti and Nicodemo Gentile, to find new evidence that confirms his version.

But is it really possible to obtain these facts from the writings of a person? According to Prof. Mastronardi yes. “There are tests of psyco-graphology and of graphometry (a method for assessing personality characteristics that is based on measurement and statistical processing of graphic symbols found in the writing of the individuals surveyed, ed) recognized by the Court to infer a specific pathology which have their scientific validity. We’ll perform this test on Rudy, particularly on the memorial that he wrote while he was in prison in Germany, which has been written straight off, without any constraint.”

For Professor Mastronardi who had already reviewed all the calligraphy of the three defendants, they can show already the elements: “His writing suggests a disturbance of interpersonal perception and a disturb of the personality. There are sections of his handwriting that speak of disturbs associative mentally and of unreliable memory.” In essence, according to the consultant, that is the explanation of why the reconstruction of what happened the night Meredith was killed (“I was there but I was in the bathroom. I heard a scream, when I came out Meredith was in a pool of blood and a young man with a cap on his head and a knife in hand, attacked me and shouted “black man found guilty found”) appears in some sections "bumpy": “Probably has difficulty sorting his memories, so to be able to reconstruct what happened in the past is forced to manipulate the details.”

According to the criminologist, then, also his childhood made of loneliness and abandonment may have influenced his character. "His handwriting speaks of the absence of a father figure and a lack of sense of identity of himself. This would also explain the fact that, when life had offered opportunities, such as an entry into a family of Perugia, he wasted it. He continued to wonder whether to trust or not, whether it was really what he wanted and so on.”
That expert advice is added by lawyer Gentile for the demand to reopen the process to make a psychiatric evaluation on Rudy for the behavior he had after the murder. Judge Paolo Micheli (this is the reasoning of the lawyer) considered was an important element for the sentencing, his flight after the crime. Well, actually (says the lawyer Gentile) his was not the escape of a murderess, but a confused person, who asked for help from many, who came in contact with friends, and was in a state of dissociative amnesia from the shock, after seeing Meredith dying.

Would these elements be enough to reopen the process? Will the graphologic and psychiatric evaluations be sufficient to make credible the confession and reconstruction of that tragic night for the young Ivorian with a passion for basketball and foreign girls? Maybe not, but could pave the way for a discount of penalty.
The work for the lawyers started, now the fate of the three young defendants will cross again very soon: the sentence for Raffaele and Amanda could arrive during those days when Rudy Guede will attempt to play the last cards to regain his freedom.
By ITALO CARMIGNANI & VANNA UGOLINI


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 9:09 pm 
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Forgot to add the link to the Il Messaggero.

Here are pictures of Guede's consultants.
http://tinyurl.com/yewty8r


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 Post subject: The Preacher and the Salesman
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 9:43 pm 
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Jools wrote:
Here are pictures of Guede's consultants.


Guede is relying on a bible-thumping preacher and home appliance salesman?


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:05 pm 
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LOL @ you, FlyBN.


For Professor Mastronardi who had already reviewed all the calligraphy of the three defendants, they can show already the elements: “His writing suggests a disturbance of interpersonal perception and a disturb of the personality. There are sections of his handwriting that speak of disturbs associative mentally and of unreliable memory.” In essence, according to the consultant, that is the explanation of why the reconstruction of what happened the night Meredith was killed (“I was there but I was in the bathroom. I heard a scream, when I came out Meredith was in a pool of blood and a young man with a cap on his head and a knife in hand, attacked me and shouted “black man found guilty found”) appears in some sections "bumpy": “Probably has difficulty sorting his memories, so to be able to reconstruct what happened in the past is forced to manipulate the details.”

Probably has difficulty sorting his memories, so to be able to reconstruct what happened in the past is forced to manipulate the details. That sounds like self-censoring/lying/spin/selective memory. Like the being stressed thing. "Stress" alone really doesn't mean very much


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:08 pm 
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fine wrote:
A double edged sword.

In isolation, finding no Amanda DNA in Meredith's bedroom seems exculpatory, and the Knox/Mellas clan likes to emphasize the fact as a talking point. In the LARGER context, however, the Forensic Police NOT finding Amanda's DNA in Meredith's room incriminates Amanda, because it incriminates Raffaele.
How can Raffaele's DNA migrate to Meredith's bra clasp---precisely where, if guilty, one would expect to find it--- while Amanda's DNA migrates to NOWHERE detected in the room? Amanda was a resident of the cottage, with a bedroom nearest to Meredith's, and shared a bathroom with Meredith, while Raffaele had only visited a few times. And a substantial sample of Raffaele's DNA was on the clasp. If Raffaele's DNA was found---and found there due to migration--- Amanda's DNA should have been found too. It wasn't.
The absence of detected Amanda DNA in Meredith's bedroom implies that Raffaele's DNA appears on the clasp not because of DNA migration, but because Raffaele gripped the clasp, and cut it from the bra. In which case both of the inseparable lovebirds were at the cottage that night.

/////



I agree. The FOA and the Knox/Mellas clan are clutching at straws with their outlandish theories.

After all I've seen and read, I do not even feel sorry for Curt Knox and Edda Mellas anymore. Initially and even though I didn't like how they tried to vilify Italy (with some success in the US), I still felt sorry for them as their situation must have been hard. But later lots of details of their smear campaign and their embellished family life emerged and helped putting that "family" in the proper light. There should be a punishment for so much insolence!


Last edited by Nell on Sun Oct 04, 2009 12:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:14 pm 
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martin wrote:
Today I had lunch with two italians (verona). They are convinced of rg's and rs's guilt, but
their gut feeling told them that ak is innocent.


Define innocent.


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:56 pm 
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Professor Snape wrote:
I can’t even read the lies the posters of those sites barf out like cats vomiting on their own hair balls. IMHO:

It’s my take if Amanda were innocent her family would be pulling together fighting like dogs to PROVE her innocence as she herself would be. Instead knowing she is completely guilty the best they can do is sell her to the highest bidder like rare meat dangling from a hook in some yak dung smelling desolate village – the flies are swarming around her like directors, producers, reporters and the Cook are doing every day. There is no shame left to barter and they are so ignorant and small they don’t even see that they are being used by the peddlers and gypsies.

You resumed that very nicely and I agree 100%.

Professor Snape wrote:
If AK wasn’t so repressed by this grossly dysfunctional family she would break from the pressure they are imposing on her. This is one piece of justice I hope for. If she breaks she will reveal to the whole world what a detestable family she comes from and this very well may be the ticket to earn her some pity and a lighter sentence – and possibly to get the help she so desperately needs. Unfortunately her “support group” will never, ever let that happen since they are so f@*ked up themselves.

I agree to what you say, but I don't think this should give her a lighter sentence unless she decides to help before the trial is over and shed some light into this matter. She seems to be very unbalanced. I honestly don't care why she is the way she is. If she suffers whatever it is and it's not treatable she should be locked up for life.

Professor Snape wrote:
And Raffaele? He’s such the pervert he needs to be locked away for life. I pity any professional having to deal with him, he’s just plain spooky. While he may claim to have been a virgin he is obviously well experienced with pervert magazines he could have stolen from his father’s nightstand. God bless his mother but that relationship sure has large helpings of dark mystery.

Sympathy for him depends IMHO to what extent it was his responsibility to end up the way he did. To lock him up for life would depend if his condition is treatable, in my opinion. This is also my opinion regarding Amanda. Who knows what happened to them and what they had to deal with? First, I am not inclined to believe anything the families of the defendants say. Second, I believe this is true for every criminal: the public feels sympathy depending on how much they were responsible for the situation they ended up in.


Professor Snape wrote:
Raffaele was perfect for Amanda infusing the sort of wicked and wonderful temptation of evilness that comes with pranks and mutual masturbation. They know nothing of love and compassion but only of spontaneous and twisted self gratification. These traits are seen at the core of both of their families.

I don’t believe either of them would have necessarily acted out their aggressions on their own but with having had just enough time for their minds to meet and in mutual agreement fused a common bond it’s not surprising to see their acting out their own angers in what could have been a game of competition one to the other. You see this “bet” continuing that one can outdo the other in withstanding the pain, a welcome feeling they embrace, deeply satisfying their souls because they alone own it and because the only other feeling they know from their parents they know is just all wrong. What their parents try to force feed them is deceptive bullshit which anyone should find repulsive.

I remember two girls in the south of Spain, they must have been around 16 years old, killed a classmate together at the beach. They agreed to meet with her and then go together to a party, but they killed her right there at the beach with a knife. When they got caught (only hours after the murder), they said in their defence that they haven't had any problems with that girl before, they only wanted to see how somebody dies. The Spanish nation was shocked when the psychiatrist found both girls to be "harmless" when not together and therefore separating them would be the solution. They did a ridiculous time in jail and received each a new identity to "protect" them from the mob once out. I don't know what treatment those two girls received and if they received any. I found the sentence way too low for having taking away the precious life of an innocent girl.

Professor Snape wrote:
Identity. Sometimes it comes at a high price. For Meredith it came at too high a price. She was murdered because of all the love and goodness she represented which neither Raffaele nor Amanda would ever have. Meredith will always be embraced with our love and compassion. Meredith was truly loved and admired because of her bright and beautiful spirit; she will be forever missed.

Justice is coming. r-((

I believe she unfortunately was the perfect target for both, Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox: Raffaele found she possibly beautiful and might have even felt attracted to her, Amanda Knox resented her because she felt eclipsed by her.


Last edited by Nell on Sun Oct 04, 2009 12:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Preacher and the Salesman
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 12:01 am 
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Fly by Night wrote:
Jools wrote:
Here are pictures of Guede's consultants.


Guede is relying on a bible-thumping preacher and home appliance salesman?



:lol: :lol: :lol:
Here is the Salesman's linkedin page: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/vincenzo-ma ... /8/954/34a

And the Preacher's web site (translated google) http://tinyurl.com/ydkfnrd


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 Post subject: Re: The Preacher and the Salesman
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 12:05 am 
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Fly by Night wrote:

Guede is relying on a bible-thumping preacher and home appliance salesman?

Maybe he will swear on the bible and call god as a witness that he takes his faith seriously,
is not capable of committing a crime and that he only fled the country because he suffers from claustrophobia.


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 12:07 am 
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Michael wrote:
Shirley wrote:
But there is evidence of AK in Meredith's bedroom: her lamp.

(I don't know whose, IF any, DNA was found on it, but the lamp is suspect. Oh I know, the lamp and the cat did it.)



Hi Shirley. This is very true. And of course, it isn't just the fact that it was in Meredith's room, but also how it was positioned along with how and where Meredith's lamp was positioned. However, were Amanda's DNA or fingerprints on the lamp, I can't see how that might act as evidence, since as it was her lamp, we'd expect to find her DNA and prints on it as a result of her using it during the time it was in her own room.

As a side note, we have two theories on the lamps. The first being they were used in a 'nose to floor' clean-up. The second, that they may have been used to look for something that had been lost in the struggle, such as a ripped out ear ring or stud. Recently, somewhere else, I read a third theory - the poster said the use of lamps reminded him of someone providing light for the use of a camera and that the attack may have been filmed by the attackers. A rather chilling thought.


@Michael

Very interesting theories, but is there a reason why anybody would think Amanda took the lamp? In the end, anybody could have taken it. I cannot see how that incriminates Amanda. On the other hand, I read that the lamp didn't have any fingerprints on it - not even Amanda's, is that true? Because if that is the case and you see it in a broader picture together with the clean up and the staged crime scene, then it becomes interesting. Did Laura and Filomena had portable lamps in their rooms?


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 12:09 am 
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bucketoftea wrote:
LOL @ you, FlyBN.


For Professor Mastronardi who had already reviewed all the calligraphy of the three defendants, they can show already the elements: “His writing suggests a disturbance of interpersonal perception and a disturb of the personality. There are sections of his handwriting that speak of disturbs associative mentally and of unreliable memory.” In essence, according to the consultant, that is the explanation of why the reconstruction of what happened the night Meredith was killed (“I was there but I was in the bathroom. I heard a scream, when I came out Meredith was in a pool of blood and a young man with a cap on his head and a knife in hand, attacked me and shouted “black man found guilty found”) appears in some sections "bumpy": “Probably has difficulty sorting his memories, so to be able to reconstruct what happened in the past is forced to manipulate the details.”

Probably has difficulty sorting his memories, so to be able to reconstruct what happened in the past is forced to manipulate the details. That sounds like self-censoring/lying/spin/selective memory. Like the being stressed thing. "Stress" alone really doesn't mean very much

Calligraphy? Who's next on the list of consultants? An astrologer? A clairvoyant? A gypsy
fortune-teller? Do they really expect the jury to believe that crap?


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 12:21 am 
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Nell wrote:
martin wrote:
Today I had lunch with two italians (verona). They are convinced of rg's and rs's guilt, but
their gut feeling told them that ak is innocent.


Define innocent.

a) not guilty or b) legally not to be held risponsible for his/her actions
Why?


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 Post subject: Re: The Preacher and the Salesman
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 12:31 am 
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Fly by Night wrote:
Jools wrote:
Here are pictures of Guede's consultants.


Guede is relying on a bible-thumping preacher and home appliance salesman?



:lol: Ohhhh, Fly By Night,
Now THAT was funny!
By the way, what's with the Salesman's UNUSUALLY ruddy face :oops: and markedly yellow teeth?

It's so noticeable-- as if he consumed large quantities of red food dye and rinsed with a tetracycline solution. drin-)


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 12:33 am 
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martin wrote:
Nell wrote:
martin wrote:
Today I had lunch with two italians (verona). They are convinced of rg's and rs's guilt, but
their gut feeling told them that ak is innocent.


Define innocent.

a) not guilty or b) legally not to be held risponsible for his/her actions
Why?


I ask because she a) could be place at the crime scene b) left her DNA on a knife that has been used in the attack c) lied about her alibi and does not have a credible alibi for the night of the murder

Under those circumstance, I find it impossible to believe she wasn't involved and so does the prosecution.

I remember the fact that Raffaele changed his statement from "being the whole night with Amanda at my apartment" to "Amanda left and came back at approximately 1:00 am". I always wondered why he decided not to provide Amanda with an alibi anymore? Does he think she is more responsible than he is? It demonstrates clearly that he is not convinced they are in the same boat.


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 12:51 am 
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martin wrote:
Calligraphy? Who's next on the list of consultants? An astrologer? A clairvoyant? A gypsy
fortune-teller? Do they really expect the jury to believe that crap?


I always thought that Rudy is more likely to spill the beans, but after reading what they will present as "evidence" to support his innocence or minor role in the crime, I doubt he will admit anything unless there is no way around it.

What a charade.

I hope we will never hear from any of the three again once the trial is over.


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 1:02 am 
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Nell wrote:
martin wrote:
Nell wrote:
martin wrote:
Today I had lunch with two italians (verona). They are convinced of rg's and rs's guilt, but
their gut feeling told them that ak is innocent.


Define innocent.

a) not guilty or b) legally not to be held risponsible for his/her actions
Why?


I ask because she a) could be place at the crime scene b) left her DNA on a knife that has been used in the attack c) lied about her alibi and does not have a credible alibi for the night of the murder
Under those circumstance, I find it impossible to believe she wasn't involved and so does the prosecution.

I remember the fact that Raffaele changed his statement from "being the whole night with Amanda at my apartment" to "Amanda left and came back at approximately 1:00 am". I always wondered why he decided not to provide Amanda with an alibi anymore? Does he think she is more responsible than he is? It demonstrates clearly that he is not convinced they are in the same boat.

Nell, I never said she was innocent, I only quoted my italian friends. As for rs's strange behaviour (changing his story, not taking the stand), maybe his defence team decided to shift
all the blame on ak and trying to get away with it.


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 Post subject: Re: The Preacher and the Salesman
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 1:07 am 
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The 411 wrote:
Fly by Night wrote:
Jools wrote:
Here are pictures of Guede's consultants.


Guede is relying on a bible-thumping preacher and home appliance salesman?



:lol: Ohhhh, Fly By Night,
Now THAT was funny!
By the way, what's with the Salesman's UNUSUALLY ruddy face :oops: and markedly yellow teeth?

It's so noticeable-- as if he consumed large quantities of red food dye and rinsed with a tetracycline solution. drin-)

Hey 411,
Is a bad photo! :lol: :lol:

But check his crazy hair here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5JQUgm4nxk


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 1:13 am 
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martin wrote:

Calligraphy? Who's next on the list of consultants? An astrologer? A clairvoyant? A gypsy
fortune-teller? Do they really expect the jury to believe that crap?[/quote]


Hi, Martin:

As an odd coincidence, years and years ago, I met a woman who worked for the Italian
Courts as a professional graphologist--in the Florentine Courts, as I recall, but I could be mistaken about the actual jurisdiction, after all these years.

Later, with a mutual acquaintance, I remember discussing this Italian woman and the scope of her work, learning how frequently she was called upon to testify as a handwriting expert. Not only for documentation verification, as you might assume, but also for "personality assessment" of defendants. Now, I don't think we can extract from my chance encounter with this one Italian graphologist years ago that this is the norm in courtrooms in Italy.

Perhaps Yummi can shed some light on this, and tell us if he knows how Italian juries tend to respond to such testimony. And whether this practice is "write" or wrong. la-)

As for U.S. Law relating to the same topic, here's the "411" on that.



[b]"What is the attitude of law courts to graphological reports for personality assessment?

Cameron v Knapp ( 520 NY 2nd 917, 917-18: New York Superior Court 1987 )

stands as current US case law for the rejection of graphology as psychological testimony.


Carroll v State probably will be best remembered for why graphologists should not be allowed to testify. "[/b]

From the website:
http://www.knowledgerush.com/kr/encyclo ... raphology/
Look under the section "CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION"


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 1:24 am 
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martin wrote:
Nell, I never said she was innocent, I only quoted my italian friends. As for rs's strange behaviour (changing his story, not taking the stand), maybe his defence team decided to shift
all the blame on ak and trying to get away with it.


I didn't meant to say that you said that, I was thinking more generally: how could anybody think that? (in this case your Italian friends).

I believe that you are right with your guess that Raffaele's defence team might have suggested that tactic. On the other hand I believe that Raffaele had a hard time opposing to what his father recommended to do. Papà Sollecito wanted to distance his son from Amanda Knox, he possibly blames her for what happened anyway. Raffaele Sollecito send her flowers instead and smiles at her in court, despite the fact he doesn't support her alibi.

Unfortunately I couldn't find out when Raffaele Sollecito changed his alibi for the second time. That would be interesting to know. At True Justice Meredith Kercher is an excellent article about Raffaele Sollecito's lies listed one by one.

If Raffaele Sollecito changed his alibi while still being questioned at the police station, before his arrest, then there must be something we don't know about.


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 1:33 am 
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The 411 wrote:
martin wrote:

Calligraphy? Who's next on the list of consultants? An astrologer? A clairvoyant? A gypsy
fortune-teller? Do they really expect the jury to believe that crap?



Hi, Martin:

As an odd coincidence, years and years ago, I met a woman who worked for the Italian
Courts as a professional graphologist--in the Florentine Courts, as I recall, but I could be mistaken about the actual jurisdiction, after all these years.

Later, with a mutual acquaintance, I remember discussing this Italian woman and the scope of her work, learning how frequently she was called upon to testify as a handwriting expert. Not only for documentation verification, as you might assume, but also for "personality assessment" of defendants. Now, I don't think we can extract from my chance encounter with this one Italian graphologist years ago that this is the norm in courtrooms in Italy.

Perhaps Yummi can shed some light on this, and tell us if he knows how Italian juries tend to respond to such testimony. And whether this practice is "write" or wrong. la-)

As for U.S. Law relating to the same topic, here's the "411" on that.



[b]"What is the attitude of law courts to graphological reports for personality assessment?

Cameron v Knapp ( 520 NY 2nd 917, 917-18: New York Superior Court 1987 )

stands as current US case law for the rejection of graphology as psychological testimony.


Carroll v State probably will be best remembered for why graphologists should not be allowed to testify. "[/b]

From the website:
http://www.knowledgerush.com/kr/encyclo ... raphology/
Look under the section "CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION"[/quote]
Hi 411,
I know that Calligraphy has a long tradition in some countries (france, hungary),
but is regarded in most european countries as cabalistic nonsense. I wonder who is paying the bills of all these useless "consultants". I thought rg had no regular income.


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 1:34 am 
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The 411 wrote:
As for U.S. Law relating to the same topic, here's the "411" on that.

"What is the attitude of law courts to graphological reports for personality assessment?

Cameron v Knapp ( 520 NY 2nd 917, 917-18: New York Superior Court 1987 )

stands as current US case law for the rejection of graphology as psychological testimony.

Carroll v State probably will be best remembered for why graphologists should not be allowed to testify. "


From the website:
http://www.knowledgerush.com/kr/encyclo ... raphology/
Look under the section "CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION"


I already can tell where we are going to read much about this topic. an-))


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 Post subject: Re: The Preacher and the Salesman
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 1:51 am 
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Jools wrote:
The 411 wrote:
Fly by Night wrote:
Jools wrote:
Here are pictures of Guede's consultants.


Guede is relying on a bible-thumping preacher and home appliance salesman?



:lol: Ohhhh, Fly By Night,
Now THAT was funny!
By the way, what's with the Salesman's UNUSUALLY ruddy face :oops: and markedly yellow teeth?

It's so noticeable-- as if he consumed large quantities of red food dye and rinsed with a tetracycline solution. drin-)

Hey 411,
Is a bad photo! :lol: :lol:

But check his crazy hair here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5JQUgm4nxk



Jools!!!!
DIO MIO!! eee-)
If a bad hairstyle were a crime,
this guy would be doing a. . .
Life Sentence!
Judge 411, the resident Criminal Coiffure Critic hereby imposes..
l' ERGASTOLO!!

In the very least.. . with his unruly hair, I'd charge him with. . . some negligence!!
In certain U.S. states, where the Death Penalty is the norm. . .
for hair THAT criminal and disorderly, he might be sent to and strapped down in "the Chair."

No, not the ELECTRIC Chair. . .
the BARBER'S CHAIR.

Jools, know any good barbers in Seville or nearby?


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 1:54 am 
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Nell wrote:
If Raffaele Sollecito changed his alibi while still being questioned at the police station, before his arrest, then there must be something we don't know about.

Nell, sorry to correct you, but we don't know anything.
We don't know
a) who was the instigator
b) who did the fatal stab
c) if the murder was premeditated or not
d) the degree of rg's involvement ("only" rape or active part in the murder)


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:05 am 
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So interesting about the 48 hours sleaze ball! Thanks for the links. I hope TJMK reports some behind the scene goods. Come on, Pete! Bring it!

Prof Snape,
Interesting. The families have always been behind the defense. Still, I don't think think the personalities of the accused will ever reveal what happened that night, only because what is in their core cannot let them. Love your posts.

Ugh, waiting waiting waiting for what I know what will be a guilty verdict. But I ache for the Kercher family as this goes on.


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:08 am 
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martin wrote:
Hi 411,
I know that Calligraphy has a long tradition in some countries (france, hungary),
but is regarded in most european countries as cabalistic nonsense. I wonder who is paying the bills of all these useless "consultants". I thought rg had no regular income.


Martin:
As I recall, the government of the Ivory Coast was, at least earlier on, footing some (or all?) of Rudy's legal bills. Rudy must have dual citizenship. Or perhaps the funding was offered to Rudy's father Roger Guede, who is an Ivoirian citizen and I believe still resides in the C d'I.


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:08 am 
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martin wrote:
Nell wrote:
If Raffaele Sollecito changed his alibi while still being questioned at the police station, before his arrest, then there must be something we don't know about.

Nell, sorry to correct you, but we don't know anything.
We don't know
a) who was the instigator
b) who did the fatal stab
c) if the murder was premeditated or not
d) the degree of rg's involvement ("only" rape or active part in the murder)


That is not correct, we know that all three defendants were at the cottage when Meredith Kercher was murdered or shortly after and none of them reported it to the authorities or called an ambulance.

The degree of involvement up to the very details is not clear, that is correct, but all three are beyond doubt involved sufficiently to receive a conviction. That they try to establish they haven't even been present at the crime scene (with the exception of Rudy Guede), doesn't help as it contradicts the evidence.


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:34 am 
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Nell wrote:
martin wrote:
Nell wrote:
If Raffaele Sollecito changed his alibi while still being questioned at the police station, before his arrest, then there must be something we don't know about.

Nell, sorry to correct you, but we don't know anything.
We don't know
a) who was the instigator
b) who did the fatal stab
c) if the murder was premeditated or not
d) the degree of rg's involvement ("only" rape or active part in the murder)


That is not correct, we know that all three defendants were at the cottage when Meredith Kercher was murdered or shortly after and none of them reported it to the authorities or called an ambulance.

The degree of involvement up to the very details is not clear, that is correct, but all three are beyond doubt involved sufficiently to receive a conviction. That they try to establish they haven't even been present at the crime scene (with the exception of Rudy Guede), doesn't help as it contradicts the evidence.

OK, all three were involved, that's obvious, but all of us would like to know a), b) and c)


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:40 am 
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The 411 wrote:
martin wrote:
Hi 411,
I know that Calligraphy has a long tradition in some countries (france, hungary),
but is regarded in most european countries as cabalistic nonsense. I wonder who is paying the bills of all these useless "consultants". I thought rg had no regular income.


Martin:
As I recall, the government of the Ivory Coast was, at least earlier on, footing some (or all?) of Rudy's legal bills. Rudy must have dual citizenship. Or perhaps the funding was offered to Rudy's father Roger Guede, who is an Ivoirian citizen and I believe still resides in the C d'I.

So the governement in abidjan is paying his bills? It's a poor country, this money should better
be used to improve the population's living standard.


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:42 am 
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Michael wrote:
Shirley wrote:
But there is evidence of AK in Meredith's bedroom: her lamp.

(I don't know whose, IF any, DNA was found on it, but the lamp is suspect. Oh I know, the lamp and the cat did it.)



Hi Shirley. This is very true. And of course, it isn't just the fact that it was in Meredith's room, but also how it was positioned along with how and where Meredith's lamp was positioned. However, were Amanda's DNA or fingerprints on the lamp, I can't see how that might act as evidence, since as it was her lamp, we'd expect to find her DNA and prints on it as a result of her using it during the time it was in her own room.

As a side note, we have two theories on the lamps. The first being they were used in a 'nose to floor' clean-up. The second, that they may have been used to look for something that had been lost in the struggle, such as a ripped out ear ring or stud. Recently, somewhere else, I read a third theory - the poster said the use of lamps reminded him of someone providing light for the use of a camera and that the attack may have been filmed by the attackers. A rather chilling thought.


Hi Michael. You're right, if Amanda's fingerprints or DNA were on the lamp it doesn't mean much, as it was her lamp.

I fall under theory one: I find it highly suspect that the defendent's lamp was found, on the floor, at a crime scene, in the midst of evidence of a cleaning up. And perhaps that cleaning-up involved looking for ear rings. It's just another of those "coincidences" I find hard to stomach. Mignini's questions to Amanda about the lamp during her testimony were interesting. I'd quote them if it wasn't Saturday night.


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:47 am 
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And I cannot even swallow the thought of any filming, especially of filming bothering with lighting. Disgusting.


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:49 am 
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martin wrote:
Nell wrote:
martin wrote:
Nell wrote:
If Raffaele Sollecito changed his alibi while still being questioned at the police station, before his arrest, then there must be something we don't know about.

Nell, sorry to correct you, but we don't know anything.
We don't know
a) who was the instigator
b) who did the fatal stab
c) if the murder was premeditated or not
d) the degree of rg's involvement ("only" rape or active part in the murder)


That is not correct, we know that all three defendants were at the cottage when Meredith Kercher was murdered or shortly after and none of them reported it to the authorities or called an ambulance.

The degree of involvement up to the very details is not clear, that is correct, but all three are beyond doubt involved sufficiently to receive a conviction. That they try to establish they haven't even been present at the crime scene (with the exception of Rudy Guede), doesn't help as it contradicts the evidence.

OK, all three were involved, that's obvious, but all of us would like to know a), b) and c)


I don't count on it. Once they are convicted - and I believe they will - they wouldn't have any reason to come forward with any more information. Instead I can see Amanda Knox and her family exploiting this horrific crime to make money under the cover "innocent abroad".

I would like to know the following: Even though it might not be allowed for Amanda Knox to make money of a crime she has been convicted of, but their parents could give interviews at Good Morning America and keep the money they are receiving. Is that so?


Last edited by Nell on Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Preacher and the Salesman
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:57 am 
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The 411 wrote:
Jools wrote:
The 411 wrote:
Fly by Night wrote:
Jools wrote:
Here are pictures of Guede's consultants.


Guede is relying on a bible-thumping preacher and home appliance salesman?



:lol: Ohhhh, Fly By Night,
Now THAT was funny!
By the way, what's with the Salesman's UNUSUALLY ruddy face :oops: and markedly yellow teeth?

It's so noticeable-- as if he consumed large quantities of red food dye and rinsed with a tetracycline solution. drin-)

Hey 411,
Is a bad photo! :lol: :lol:

But check his crazy hair here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5JQUgm4nxk



Jools!!!!
DIO MIO!! eee-)
If a bad hairstyle were a crime,
this guy would be doing a. . .
Life Sentence!
Judge 411, the resident Criminal Coiffure Critic hereby imposes..
l' ERGASTOLO!!

In the very least.. . with his unruly hair, I'd charge him with. . . some negligence!!
In certain U.S. states, where the Death Penalty is the norm. . .
for hair THAT criminal and disorderly, he might be sent to and strapped down in "the Chair."

No, not the ELECTRIC Chair. . .
the BARBER'S CHAIR.

Jools, know any good barbers in Seville or nearby?



Hi 411! How are you?

Thank you Jools for that youtube link and the knee slapping laugh at Prof. Vincenzo Mastronardi's goofy hair! :lol:

He sort of has that Woody Woodpeckerish look?


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

_________________
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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:16 am 
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Nell wrote:

I would like to know the following: Even though it might not be allowed for Amanda Knox to make money of a crime she has been convicted of, but their parents could give interviews at Good Morning America and keep the money they are receiving. Is that so?

Since her parents can't be held responsible for the deeds of her daughter, i think yes, they
can make a lot of money (interviews, books, royalties, tv-shows). In Amanda's case, I am
sure that there will be some kind of restraining order ruling that all the money she makes
will be given to meredith's family. But i am not a lawyer, you should better ask yummy.


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:20 am 
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From the link provided by Jools:

‘For Professor Mastronardi who had already reviewed all the calligraphy of the three defendants, they can show already the elements: “His writing suggests a disturbance of interpersonal perception and a disturb of the personality. There are sections of his handwriting that speak of disturbs associative mentally and of unreliable memory.” In essence, according to the consultant, that is the explanation of why the reconstruction of what happened the night Meredith was killed …appears in some sections "bumpy": “Probably has difficulty sorting his memories, so to be able to reconstruct what happened in the past is forced to manipulate the details.”

OK, so the defense and his paid psychiatrist are admitting that Rudy’s recollection of event s that night are bumpy. And some of his details are manipulated (distorted) due to extremely unfortunate outside forces beyond his control. Which translated to personality problems commingled with some existing problems from his childhood. (Unlike Amanda who didn’t have any existing problems). So he’s just giving us a rough outline of what happened that night and afterwards.
We’ve heard varying accounts of this all before. But they seem to be highlighting Rudy’s confusion and mental state. I know they are using this as an excuse for his very incriminating actions of not seeking help. But I guess maybe, they are still leaving the door open. That Rudy will be able to sort out his memory banks and give a more detailed explanation of what happened, and what he saw that evening.


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:23 am 
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martin wrote:
Nell wrote:

I would like to know the following: Even though it might not be allowed for Amanda Knox to make money of a crime she has been convicted of, but their parents could give interviews at Good Morning America and keep the money they are receiving. Is that so?

Since her parents can't be held responsible for the deeds of her daughter, i think yes, they
can make a lot of money (interviews, books, royalties, tv-shows). In Amanda's case, I am
sure that there will be some kind of restraining order ruling that all the money she makes
will be given to meredith's family. But i am not a lawyer, you should better ask yummy.


Thanks for your answer. What a horrible outlook!

@Yummi or anybody with an understanding of the law in this special case: Could you please confirm that? Thank you!


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 Post subject: Re: The Preacher and the Salesman
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:26 am 
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Tara wrote:
Thank you Jools for that youtube link and the knee slapping laugh at Prof. Vincenzo Mastronardi's goofy hair! :lol:
He sort of has that Woody Woodpeckerish look?


I suspect this is where Mastronardi got his inspiration:


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:37 am 
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DLW wrote:
--- snip ---
Unlike Amanda who didn’t have any existing problems
--- snap ---


Barbie Latza Nadeau thinks differently. She writes in her article the following:

Quote:
Mining Amanda Knox’s past, Barbie Latza Nadeau unearths a broken home, disturbing writings, and evidence of a tempestuous relationship with her stepfather.


Quote:
Since Knox’s arrest 16 months ago, YouTube drunk-girl-at-a-party videos, copies of her MySpace postings, and personal letters she wrote to family and friends have surfaced, painting a picture of a disturbed young woman with family issues.


Quote:
Knox is the product of a broken home. Her parents Edda and Curt divorced when she was two years old. On more than one occasion Edda had to go to court to collect child support from Curt. When Amanda was around 10, her mother met and later married Chris Mellas, an IT specialist ten years her junior.


Quote:
People close to the family say his relationship with Amanda, who is only 14 years younger, was complicated and tenuous at times. She complained about him to several friends and expressed worries about her mother’s relationship. She wrote on Mellas’ MySpace page in August 2007, just two months before the murder, “Alright, does that mean we’re getting along then?”


Quote:
In turn, Mellas’ MySpace page bragged about getting drunk with his stepdaughter. That same page, now offline but mirrored on several Internet sites, is rife with photos of drunk people vomiting and pictures of Mellas and his buddies holding big fish they’ve caught. Describing himself as happily married, he wrote, “I have two kids by marriage, Amanda and Deanna. They are both shitheads and I love them anyways. They, as we all do, have their fare [sic] share of quirks…but we would all be white bread boring as hell if we didn’t.”


If that is true then we have to forget about the picture of "happily divorced big family living as neighbours" that Curt Knox and Edda Mellas tried to sell to the public.


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 Post subject: Re: The Preacher and the Salesman
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:55 am 
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Tara wrote:
Hey 411,
Hi 411! How are you?

Thank you Jools for that youtube link and the knee slapping laugh at Prof. Vincenzo Mastronardi's goofy hair! :lol:

He sort of has that Woody Woodpeckerish look?


TARA! hugz-)
I sent you a PM! co-)

OT (Off-topic) as well as OT (Operatically Themed)
Speaking of Woody Woodpecker...and of barbers, tonight (specifically the Barber of Seville),
made me immediately think of this memorable musical video of Woody Woodpecker-- singing in Italian...
(See link below).

Isn't it great how I was able to tie in Woody Woodpecker, a barber (a Spanish one--for Jools) and an Italian motif, as well!!! (i.e., opera, Gioachino Rossini's "Barber of Seville")all in one single post.

For your listening pleasure, here's our avian friend, singing a favorite selection from the
"Barber of Seville"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EF3bSRIjaNs


And now, Ladies and Gentlemen, we will return to our regularly scheduled blog topic.

Arrivederci, Amica, from Arreggozza, in the great state of Maine! br-))


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 4:28 am 
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OT!

Oh 411,

Our favorite town where you are from is on the lovely island of Maine Coon, off the coast of Maine, and it's of course spelled, Agorrozorro! hugz-)

What? A totally apt Woody Woodpecker video?! How does that work? You haven't lost your touch 411!


band-) b-((

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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:20 am 
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Nell wrote:
martin wrote:
Nell wrote:
martin wrote:
Nell wrote:
If Raffaele Sollecito changed his alibi while still being questioned at the police station, before his arrest, then there must be something we don't know about.

Nell, sorry to correct you, but we don't know anything.
We don't know
a) who was the instigator
b) who did the fatal stab
c) if the murder was premeditated or not
d) the degree of rg's involvement ("only" rape or active part in the murder)


That is not correct, we know that all three defendants were at the cottage when Meredith Kercher was murdered or shortly after and none of them reported it to the authorities or called an ambulance.

The degree of involvement up to the very details is not clear, that is correct, but all three are beyond doubt involved sufficiently to receive a conviction. That they try to establish they haven't even been present at the crime scene (with the exception of Rudy Guede), doesn't help as it contradicts the evidence.

OK, all three were involved, that's obvious, but all of us would like to know a), b) and c)


I don't count on it. Once they are convicted - and I believe they will - they wouldn't have any reason to come forward with any more information. Instead I can see Amanda Knox and her family exploiting this horrific crime to make money under the cover "innocent abroad".

I would like to know the following: Even though it might not be allowed for Amanda Knox to make money of a crime she has been convicted of, but their parents could give interviews at Good Morning America and keep the money they are receiving. Is that so?





Maybe. But if all three end up convicted, I think there's a good chance that whoever is "less guilty" decides to talk and point the finger at the others.

My gut feeling is that RS is the weakest link, and that he will eventually tell his side of the story, unless he's acquitted of course.

And if one of them speaks up, there will probably be a pie-throwing contest between the three of them.


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:53 am 
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Quote:
Thanks for your answer. What a horrible outlook!


Amanda's family can write and publish and sell anything they want about the case. They are not under any kind of trial. Meredith's family had no rights to have a penny from this income. No restraint is given on them for their publications. The only case in which Meredith's family could ask them some money is if they do something illegal against the victim's memory. Possibly the State could act legally against them if they offend the judiciary system beyond reasonable limits.


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 11:30 am 
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Buzz wrote:

Maybe. But if all three end up convicted, I think there's a good chance that whoever is "less guilty" decides to talk and point the finger at the others.

My gut feeling is that RS is the weakest link, and that he will eventually tell his side of the story, unless he's acquitted of course.

And if one of them speaks up, there will probably be a pie-throwing contest between the three of them.

Why you think RS? Because he is more "sensitive" than the others or you think he really played
a minor role in the murder? My gut feeling is that he was the instigator.


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 12:30 pm 
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Nell -AK can rot in hell as far as I am concerned. No tears here. Anyone who can do what Raffaele did, I suspect holding her and breaking her jaw, deserves no mercy and should spend the rest of their life in jail. IMO they flunked life and class is dismissed. What a shocking and very sad story of the yound Spanish girl; I am willing to bet the killers never experienced any remorse. Scary isn't it? Those poor parents, such a tragic and sad way to lose their daughter. I think it would be unbearable to lose a child in a car accident or to cancer but to be forced to wade through the tide in a sea of senseless brutality would leave any parent stunned and numb for life. Sure, at some point one has to stop crying but the heart, it is torn apart and forever changed. I'm sure AK + RS both found Meredith to be stunning inside and out, a trait beyond their reach. Thanks for the comments, Nell.

Jools, classic! I got a kick out Vincenzo Mastronardi including among his interests “Getting back in touch” I think it wouldn’t be too hard for Chris Mellas to look like this guy in about, say, 15 years.

Martin & Nell – jumping into your dialog with my $0.02, I think Amanda’s immense insecurity drives her need to be the center of attention and would not allow either of the guys to steal her thunder. No doubt she has been coached by her council to respond a certain way if RS starts to talk . Then there’s Edda who has surely explained to her offspring the fiscal rewards for spicy up any performance she can whip up. My money is on AK.

.....and I’ve never once felt sorry for the family – none of them. They are all liars and insult Meredith with every roll of their eyes and deep deceit. Smug. All of them shameful. I wish Italy would ban them forever and I hope their true evilness is revealed to the world so no one will buy one book. Even the Cook’s cheap paperback.

Jumpy – “Bring it” good one! w-(( Pete needs coaxing every now and then but we can count on em.

I am proud to be associated with some many compassionate people.

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"Wizard of Healing Potions and Alibis"


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 1:07 pm 
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Those are my thoughts about who would squeal, Snape. I don't think she'd go first, but I think she'd go loudest and longest in any attempt to save herself, but attention would be a huge motivator as well.


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:10 pm 
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martin wrote:
My gut feeling is that he was the instigator.


Hi Martin,

I also believe that Raffaele Sollecito was the instigator. Amanda Knox and him are both psychopaths. I think Sollecito made the suggestion of attacking or threatening Meredith with knives and Knox readily agreed because she was full of a deep and twisted hatred of Meredith.

I'm not sure about the role of Rudy Guede in the actual murder. The fact that he hasn't told the whole truth suggests that he can't because it's too horrific. I think he probably sexually assaulted Meredith whilst she was being threatened or slashed with the knives.


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:33 pm 
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The Machine wrote:
martin wrote:
My gut feeling is that he was the instigator.


Hi Martin,

I also believe that Raffaele Sollecito was the instigator. Amanda Knox and him are both psychopaths. I think Sollecito made the suggestion of attacking or threatening Meredith with knives and Knox readily agreed because she was full of a deep and twisted hatred of Meredith.

I'm not sure about the role of Rudy Guede in the actual murder. The fact that he hasn't told the whole truth suggests that he can't because it's too horrific. I think he probably sexually assaulted Meredith whilst she was being threatened or slashed with the knives.

Hi Machine,
finally you are back. Miss R. wrote in one of her blogs (long time ago) the both should have never met. I am not so convinced that sooner or later one of them will start talking, i think
they enjoy playing the innocent scapegoat. What you think?


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:30 pm 
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Yummi wrote:
Quote:
Thanks for your answer. What a horrible outlook!


Amanda's family can write and publish and sell anything they want about the case. They are not under any kind of trial. Meredith's family had no rights to have a penny from this income. No restraint is given on them for their publications. The only case in which Meredith's family could ask them some money is if they do something illegal against the victim's memory. Possibly the State could act legally against them if they offend the judiciary system beyond reasonable limits.


It was recently reported that John Kercher, Meredith's father, is working on a book. As the family has maintained such steadfast and dignified restraint and silence under such difficult circumstances, I would imagine he has lots to say that is of interest to a wider audience. On the other hand, we have been hearing since day one what the Entourage has to say. We know the stories of Knox and Sollecito, their likes and dislikes, what they are studying in prison, their shifting alibis, etc. ad nauseam. There may be lots of behind the scenes details and gossip that the public has not been privy to, but surely these are of interest only to people who have unlimited appetites for this kind of thing.

However, very little is known about Meredith or about how her family is coping with this tragedy and how it is playing out in the media. If John Kercher wishes to share these details with the public, then he will surely find a large and compassionate audience. In addition, he is actually a journalist with a book or two under his belt. I have no doubt that his book about Meredith will be courageous, well-written, candid and insightful.

It will provide welcome relief from the ambiant sound and fury. Let's not forget that the next contemptuous assault on Meredith and her family is scheduled for release at the end of November. It is the Garfield Kennedy - Bob Graham "documentary", starring Amanda Knox, Madison Paxton and Edda Mellas as themselves. No mention of Meredith Kercher or anyone in her family. I guess some people let their conscience be dictated by considerations of the market with the most money.

EDITED to correct a typo pointed out to me by Hungarian. Thanks, Hungarian, for being on the ball!

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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:30 pm 
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martin wrote:
Miss R. wrote in one of her blogs (long time ago) the both should have never met. I am not so convinced that sooner or later one of them will start talking, i think
they enjoy playing the innocent scapegoat. What you think?


I don't think Knox or Sollecito will ever spill the beans about what happened that night. Although Knox voluntarily admitted that she was at the cottage and that she was involved in Meredith's murder.

It's important to bear in mind that Knox readily admitted that she was at the cottage when Meredith was killed when she was told that Sollecito wasn't providing her with an alibi. Furthermore, she made this claim on four separate occasions.

It's significant that Judge Massei accepted Knox's handwitten confession as evidence. It clearly indicates that he doesn't think Knox was coerced into making it or that it was a false confession. Knox's lawyers know how damaging her confession is and that's why they tried so hard to have it thrown out.

Knox's handwritten confession contains significant elements truth, which have been verified.

There were three people at the cottage when Meredith was killed: Knox, Sollecito and a third man. The police suspected that Knox and Sollecito were involved, but they didn't know that a third person was involved. It clearly wasn't a coincidence that Knox named an African man, Diya Lumumba as the third man.

It's quite clear that Knox knew that Meredith had been sexually assaulted:

"“Patrick wanted her… I don’t remember if Meredith called out or if I heard thuds because I was upset, but I can imagine what was happening”.

It was the first mention that there was sexual assault on Meredith. Dr. Lalli autopsy report was presented to the court on 8 November, which was a couple of days after Knox's handwritten note.

Judge Paolo Micheli claimed that Knox knew precise details about Meredith's murder. She told witnesses that Meredith had died "in slow agony". Mignini asked Knox on 17 December 2007 how she could possibly have known this if she was not actually there. Knox began to cry, and refused to answer the question.

Knox claimed that Meredith screamed, which was corroborated by two witnesses, Nara Capezalli and Antonella Monacchia.

Knox also claimed that she was in Piazza Grimana on the night of the murder. This claim is supported by Antonio Curatolo, the one person could definitely confirm whether this was true or not. He testified that he saw Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito in Piazza Grimana on several occasions that night.

I think Rudy Guede is the most likely out of the three to come clean about what happened.


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 4:17 pm 
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martin wrote:
Buzz wrote:

Maybe. But if all three end up convicted, I think there's a good chance that whoever is "less guilty" decides to talk and point the finger at the others.

My gut feeling is that RS is the weakest link, and that he will eventually tell his side of the story, unless he's acquitted of course.

And if one of them speaks up, there will probably be a pie-throwing contest between the three of them.

Why you think RS? Because he is more "sensitive" than the others or you think he really played
a minor role in the murder? My gut feeling is that he was the instigator.




His role might not have been minor once the murder was underway, but I just can't imagine that RS was the driving force beforehand. His involvement seems too random.

Both AK and RG knew MK and had some identifiable reason to kill her. But RS couldn't have met MK many times. So the idea that RS would convince the other two (people he hardly knew) to commit murder (of another person he hardly knew) is far-fetched in my opinion.

I think AK was the instigator, RG was the accelerator, and RS just sort of came along for the ride.

Put differently, I think the murder could have occurred even without RS's involvement. But it would never have happened without AK.


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 5:12 pm 
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The Machine wrote:

I think Rudy Guede is the most likely out of the three to come clean about what happened.



Machine, I agree with you.

It seems, unlike the other two, Rudy didn't/doesn't pretend to be something he isn't--some sort of gifted "golden child."

Rudy was not /is not emotionally and financially dependent on his family, and he still stands alone, (unless his legal support from the Ivory Coast is contingent on his being "relatively" innocent.)

For the other two defendants, their fates are inextricably linked with the fate/reputation/future well-being of their families. For RS/AK come clean, the two families would feel their OWN lives would be on the line, too.

It's obvious that there has been a carefully-construed "impression management" campaign going on by the Sollecito Knox/Mellas families with their troubled offspring.

Not only is the fate of AK and RS is meshed with the fate of their family members, Amanda and Raffaele know it. I'm sure they have regular reminders and lots of pressure to keep the "forensic fictions" going.

Imagine what a devastating liability it is for a physician father and a Carabiniere sister to have RS actually confess to such a brutal, evil murder.

Imagine acknowledging your daughter/sister/friend played a part in this heinous crime, after you've sacrificed years of time, finances, energy to portray her as AN INNOCENT VICTIM.

As we know, even prior to this murder, there were disturbing but unaddressed problems with AK and RS, that were simply swept under the carpet. Little chance of AK and RS wanting to act differently now.


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 Post subject: SAY CURT, DO YOU WANT TO GO FISHING NEXT WEEKEND?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 5:33 pm 
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jhansigirl wrote:
I'm no expert but common sense tells me that murder has a negative effect on the perpetrators and anyone connected to the crime even indirectly. There are children
in your family being confronted with all the details of this horrible crime simply because you are dragging them into this situation with your denials and publicity seeking and rallying around Amanda.
....
In addition to this, Curt/Edda, you have spent your life savings on your ludicrous PR campaign for Amanda. At some point in time the rest of the children, and Mr C Mellas and Mrs C Knox will start to resent that all this money has been wasted in such a way. What about your retirement funds, health insurance, college funds?


Hi Jhansigirl,

The Knox/Mellas families have not had any problem in introducing Amanda's underage half-sisters to the cameras of American broadcasting networks or her sister and half-sister to magazine photographers - in front of the cottage where the murder was perpetrated, of all places.

If they say they weren't aware of such images being made, then they should control better the situations that their children get into.

As for Chris and Cassandra, I can't imagine Curt asking Chris for some help in updating his CV, or Chris getting Curt to help him fix the lawnmower. Nor Cassandra asking Edda to pose her daughter in front of the cottage.

jhansigirl wrote:
Oh yes of course, you can turn to the press and sell a story or two? Write a book and earn millions? That is, if the Kercher family have not requested a legal injunction to prevent you from capitalising on the murder of their daughter.

I think that many of us would tend to agree with your feelings. Unfortunately, as Yummi has pointed out, it seems that the only injunction against income related to the crime (ie. "selling" the story) would apply to Amanda (and the other accused) should they be found guilty of any of the charges.

It saddens me to no end to know that people will make money out giving credit and publicity to the stories of the suspects / potentially future convicted criminals.

To some extent, a vicious circle starts where - as other posters have pointed out - Amanda becomes enchained to the defence posture which The Entourage has staked out (at Raffaele's all night, smoking dope, making love, writing emails - oops, that's no longer on the list - cooking up bloody fish, talking about Raffaele's mother's suicide ...).

This "vision" permits no standing down, and in turn prolongs the investigation or trial, which in turn requires additional resources (ie. money) for lawyers and travels, which in turn requires further magazine articles / TV broadcasting promises ("I'll give you the first interviews if you pay my trip"), and further walls in Amanda in a difficult, immobile defence and public posture.

At the same time perhaps even The Entourage realises that some public associations are premature and inappropriate, at least before this first trial is out.

Perhaps that explains why the IMDB (Internet Movie Database) page about the upcoming Bob Graham, Garfield Kennedy movie called "Making a Killing" has been modified / retouched more times than Candace Dempsey's LinkedIn C.V.:

It started off announcing that Amanda and her friend Madison were the stars of Making a Killing:


Then - thanks to Google cache, which keeps alive old erased material on Internet for a few weeks - we see that Edda Mellas becomes the star and her daughter and Madison disappear:


Now, no one seems to star in the movie:


Since I have the feeling that it will be presenting quite a narrow view of Amanda's relation to the crime, I don't know if I'll have time to watch it, if it actually is ever projected somewhere.

jhansigirl wrote:
After the trial has ended and Amanda is convicted all those people who said nice things about her will choose to sell their stories to the newspapers however the
things they say won't be 'nice' anymore. Yes these so-called friends will turn on you for ready cash. It's hell isn't it?

In fact, there are many persons who have jumped at the cash already. Let me count the ways / name them.

But just as people have jumped on a bandwagon, they will abandon it, for money, or because they see that the guts of the beast aren't as they believed. Where's Joe the Sleuth of late? Kelly the saviour of third world lost causes (in addition to special exceptions, like Amanda)? Even the Hot Shot Lawyer Anne Bremner isn't too vocal recently on this case, I thought she had effectively disassociated herself from being a FOAKer a while back when she stated that FOA had done its job?


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:48 am 
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A philosophical comment.

After all the money spent on PR, lawyers, and expert witnesses ---in an effort to obstruct justice, er....I should say, "make water run uphill"---it appears that Amanda and Raffaele will be spending many years in jail, found guilty of Meredith's murder. Convicted by persuasive voluminous evidence. And this is the best thing that could ever happen to them. Freedom at last.

A conviction will change the course of life for both, for the better....from a petty life of hedonism and deceit to one of possible value. The opportunity, at least, will be there. And over time, while in jail, finding satisfaction in life will no longer depend on placating their manipulative and "supportive" parents ("fun, fun, fun,...'til daddy takes the T-bird away"). On reflection, Amanda and Raffaele may see their respective parents' actions, those of today, as symptoms of a ruthless family culture that led the lovebirds to murder, and, certainly, the cover-up. One day both may even feel and express remorse. Without a conviction that would never happen. Call it Jail Therapy.

And thanks to whomever (Kermit?) had the decency to obliterate the 14 year-old girl's face in the photo posted above, she posing as "jailbait" in front of the cottage. She should never have been used like that. The original unaltered photo a perfect example of the Knox/Mellas family culture. Commercial. Manipulative. And tasteless.

///////


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 Post subject: No questions, no answers
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:05 pm 
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Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis
The New Tenants

Perugia really is a small place.

What would it be like if some of your roommates turned out to be innocentisti ("She cannot have done it"), while others were colpevolisti ("She must have done")?
The Spanish chap at the table seems a sensible fellow, though it could get a bit annoying for him after a while, being followed by a perpetual, but polite, rabble of journalists watching his every coffee purchase.

This is from last Thursday:

NEW TENANT AT HOME: “NO MONEY, NO DECLARATION”

(AGI) Perugia, 1 Oct – Seemingly irritated but, from his glance, amused, the new tenant (who in the last couple of days, together with two other students, took up the lease on the flat under the one in which, on the night of the 1st and 2nd November 2007, Meredith Kercher was killed) did not want to speak to journalists.

“No money, no declaration. I want three thousand euro,” he said in imperfect English in a joking tone to the reporters who were waiting for him outside the via della Pergola cottage, throwing out that quip as a declaration that he wanted payment.

He knows that his encounter with journalists is due to the fact that he has chosen to live in not just any old house in Perugia, but the one that became the scene of a heinous murder for which the Perugia Court of Assizes is currently trying Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito (Ivorian Rudy Hermann Guede has already been been sentenced to 30 years’ via a fast-track trial).

The lad, about 20 years old, possibly Spanish, returned to the house this afternoon, around 4pm, carrying with him a suitcase, a trolley, two envelopes, and computer carry-bag and a backpack on his shoulder.

After having closed the green gate giving access to the residence, he remained inside for ten minutes or so before coming back out again. Dressed in jeans and a blue and white T-shirt, with a “9” printed on the back and “Espana” [=Spain] on the front, and more amused than intimidated by the journalists, the young man repeated his unwillingness to talk and, after phoning some friends, met up with them in an Internet café in via Pinturicchio (the same place visited in the past by Meredith and Amanda), where he stayed for about twenty minutes web-surfing and checking his emails.

Then, together with his three friends (also Spanish, probably), he headed into a nearby bar for take-away coffees that they took back to their new apartment. Back home, the four boys dragged the kitchen table and some chairs outside, and had a comfortable chat, glancing amusedly now and then at the journalists, in the yard in front of the entrance gate.

Confirming the fact that one of the apartments of the Meredith murder house has been newly occupied is a car, a white Renault, parked inside the via della Pergola yard. Inside the car, besides two bottles, a map of Spain was also visible.


AGI 01 October 2009


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 Post subject: Telling it like it isn't
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 7:01 pm 
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Lawyers, lawyers, lawyers - can't live with them; can't live without them.

I don't think they actually teach these techniques in law school, but they are exceedingly popular just the same. Check out Ann Curry's interview with the lawyer for Joe Halderman, CBS's emmy-winning producer of such masterpieces as “The Amanda Knox Story” and "American Girl, Italian Nightmare". Oh silly Prosecutor, it can't be extortion because real extortionists absolutely will not accept personal checks - and besides, Halderman is just too nice of a guy.

I particularly like the part where lawyer Shargel, in his "guarded, sometimes combative interview with Curry" claims:...Letterman has “access to a huge audience” in laying out his side of the story. Curry responded, “I’m giving you access and you’re not actually giving your client’s side of the story.” Shargel became noticeably agitated.

So, they have it in them after all! It makes me wonder why the Vieira/Curry tag team can't seem to muster up the strength to ask similar tough questions of Curt Knox or Edda Mellas when they come in for their weekly Today Show appearances.


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 Post subject: Re: Telling it like it isn't
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:25 pm 
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Fly by Night wrote:
It makes me wonder why the Vieira/Curry tag team can't seem to muster up the strength to ask similar tough questions of Curt Knox or Edda Mellas when they come in for their weekly Today Show appearances.


Hi, Fly By,
You raise a good question.

I am a long-time "Today Show" viewer. I also have had the pleasure of meeting Ann Curry and once had a (somewhat distant) non-media connection to her, through other people who know her well. From my encounters with her, and the stories I have heard about her, I can't reveal all the many good things about her--as an amazingly good human being. She is probably one of the most genuine, caring, compassionate "famous person" that I've ever met.

She is also not a journalistic lightweight.

Having said that, as we know, TV news has limited time to cover all the news of the day, partially due to the audience's limited attention span.

So here they have to cover this massively complex story (that most Americans don't know anything about, nor do they care much about). Perhaps"Today" decides to cover the "compelling American angle" to attract and capture whatever audience they can get.

Here at PMF, we all love to dissect every nuance of the trial, the evidence, the personalities, the justice and injustices.
In fact, one annoying American poster takes the minutia to an extreme by critiquing hairstyles, both in and out of the courtroom. eee-)
(Sheeeeeeez! That poster probably spends a lot of time watching "Woody Woodpecker" reruns on TV!) d-))

But the truth is, Fly, (if I may call you that, because you are....so fly!!)--outside of Seattle, and some obscure parts of the state of Maine, this murder trial in Perugia is NOT at all a hot story in the U.S. The live TV interviews do boost the demographics. I don't think NBC wants to alienate their long-term interview prospects. So, maybe the anchors do the softball approach to insure the Faithful FOAKers come back for another interview, "to share"and make for more riveting coverage.

Or maybe Ann and M. Viera are over- empathizing, being American parents, themselves...

Makes me wonder how this story is being covered by Ivory Coast media . Do we think that Roger Guede is making the rounds on Ivorian talk shows? Is he depicted as a victim? Are the media impartial in covering the case against RG ? Do their citizens even care about an ex-patriot named Rudy Guede?

QUESTION
Before I forget, I keep reading about a "48 Hours" program entitled "The Amanda Knox Story."As far as I know, there was no "48 Hours" with THAT title. pro-) n-((

Or maybe THAT particular episode (ALL ABOUT AMANDA) aired on another channel, such as MTV (i.e, "Megalomaniac- TV"?) or rival network. the ABC ("Amanda's Buffoonish Cheerleaders") channel..... pp-( pp-(


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:34 am 
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It was definitely CBS 48Hours that gave us Ciolino's shouting and absurd window "experiment". They (paid) Drew Peterson and his scumball lawyer to spread their poison on Today more than once.


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:29 am 
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bucketoftea wrote:
It was definitely CBS 48Hours that gave us Ciolino's shouting and absurd window "experiment". They (paid) Drew Peterson and his scumball lawyer to spread their poison on Today more than once.


Yes, right. I believe there have been a total of TWO CBS "48 Hours" programs on the Meredith Kercher murder.
But, I ask: Was one of the two episodes actually entitled "The Amanda Knox Story"?
I really don't think so. . .
Although it's obvious that for the FOAKers, the only real story is "Amanda Knox Story."
Amanda's plight, Amanda's suffering, Amanda's courage, Amanda's strength, Amanda's innocence, Amanda's . . tu-))


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:01 am 
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UW Tightens Rules for Study Abroad
Andrea Vogt

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/410702_k ... ource=mypi


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:04 am 
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New article by Andrea Vogt: After Knox and other incidents, the UW tightens rules for study abroad

EDIT: Oops, snap Bucketoftea :)

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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:53 am 
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sorry...don't mean to usurp....:)


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:57 am 
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There's a related content link there to something about or the email itself that Knox sent Nov 4th, but it won't load for me....


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:24 pm 
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Hello board, can anyone tell me what's going with the trial, is the court now deliberating? Any ideas on when the verdict is likely?


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:06 pm 
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Bucketoftea wrote:
"There's a related content link there to something about or the email itself that Knox sent Nov 4th, but it won't load for me...."

It is AK's email sent Nov 4 to FOA.
http://www.seattlepi.com/dayart/pdf/Kno ... abroad.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:27 pm 
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Thanks, Jools! I hadn't realised that she'd copied in a UW official, as well.


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 Post subject: International Programs and Exchanges
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:51 pm 
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bucketoftea wrote:
Thanks, Jools! I hadn't realised that she'd copied in a UW official, as well.


Actually, she was directly responding to an email from the University of Washington's International Programs and Exchanges office - everyone else was copied-in. Thus, the subject line is "RE: Hello from IPE" - note that the copy made for the pdf has the email address of the primary recipient and all the cc's removed.


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:13 pm 
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Thanks. FBN. Seems weird to me.


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 Post subject: Mental Health Evaluations
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:16 pm 
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bucketoftea wrote:
UW Tightens Rules for Study Abroad
Andrea Vogt

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/410702_k ... ource=mypi


An important issue Vogt does not address in this article is the tightening of mental and physical health requirements for overseas study. These days, if a school's health counselor finds reason to doubt a student's ability to fully care for themselves on their own overseas, for any reason whatsoever, they are far more likely to deny a study overseas program request than two years ago.


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 Post subject: Re: Telling it like it isn't
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:00 pm 
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The 411 wrote:
So here they have to cover this massively complex story (that most Americans don't know anything about, nor do they care much about). Perhaps "Today" decides to cover the "compelling American angle" to attract and capture whatever audience they can get...

...But the truth is, Fly, (if I may call you that, because you are....so fly!!)--outside of Seattle, and some obscure parts of the state of Maine, this murder trial in Perugia is NOT at all a hot story in the U.S. The live TV interviews do boost the demographics. I don't think NBC wants to alienate their long-term interview prospects. So, maybe the anchors do the softball approach to insure the Faithful FOAKers come back for another interview, "to share"and make for more riveting coverage.


Hi 411 - in this trial of super-witnesses and super-experts - it must be SuperFly, thank you. :shock:
I think you're correct in this assessment. The problem is, they don't seem to realize that it all comes at Meredith Kercher's expense.

The 411 wrote:
QUESTION
Before I forget, I keep reading about a "48 Hours" program entitled "The Amanda Knox Story." As far as I know, there was no "48 Hours" with THAT title.


Right again - the first 48 hours special was actually called "A Long Way From Home" and it aired on April 12, 2008. The second came exactly one year later and was called "American Girl, Italian Nightmare".


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:50 pm 
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bucketoftea wrote:
There's a related content link there to something about or the email itself that Knox sent Nov 4th, but it won't load for me....


No toes stepped on, it happens all the time :)

You can find Amanda's email here: AMANDA'S EMAIL HOME, NOV 4, 2007

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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:59 pm 
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Matthew wrote:
Hello board, can anyone tell me what's going with the trial, is the court now deliberating? Any ideas on when the verdict is likely?



Hi Mathew. We'll get a better idea of that after the next two hearings (Oct 9 & 10) as then the court will decide if and what witnesses need to be recalled and if they're going to appoint a super-expert. We can't even guess really until we know those things.

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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:02 pm 
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Could it be possible that one, if not THE unidentified individual who was present when MK was murdered may be the man that RS and AK were recorded speaking about in the Questura in the hours following the discovery of MK's body?. AK and RS referred to him as 'Shaky'. The things they were saying about him... I believe those things to be patently false and possibly said with deceptive intent.

Also pretty sure from newspaper articles that this person was NOT liked by MK, nor MK's friends. MK, returning home by herself that evening would never have let him in. Shaky doesn't have priors for breaking and entering. Someone would have needed to let him in, if he was there.

This character may have been known also to Patrick Lumumba. All the major players in this case had something in common with Shaky. One of those things was Marijuana. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but didn't AK mention in her depositions or her diary that she had met Shaky in an Internet Cafe' and that she'd had him over to her apartment more than once to smoke grass and hang out? Why would she then speak loud enough that surveillance could pick up her comments in broken Italian, saying that she didn't like/trust him, and that he had tried to make a pass at her?

Shaky is Moroccan according to what I've read, so he would have been in town most likely over that Catholic holiday weekend. He worked in a local pizzeria and may have also been known to the pot-growing Italian boys who lived in the flat below MK and AK.

I think that AK and RS immediately tried to distance themselves from him for some reason, thinking that perhaps his presence at the crime scene would soon be discovered. Though I believe Shaky to be a person of interest, of course I have no proof that he was there. Still, if someone knows whether or not Shaky's DNA and/or prints were compared to those unidentified ones from the crime scene, or if he supplied a sufficient/cooborated alibi for the night of the murder, please post that info. here.

I am confident that he was actually friends w. RS, RG and AK, in direct contradiction to AK/RS's Questura comments.

Even if he wasn't involved, I believe he may have been close enough to all 3 of the accused that he may know something about what they were up to just before and just after the murder took place. Hell, he might even be able to give RS and AK new alibis.

Hopefully, an investigator from the S.M. in Roma or a member of the Polizia in Perugia (not associated with Mignini...) will read this and go track 'Shaky' down asap.

If AK and RS are innocent, then tracking down Shaky and deposing him, checking his alibi, prints, DNA etc., should not have any affect on their winning this case.

I sure as hell don't want to see innocent people sent to prison. At the same time, I cannot possibly accept that anyone who may have taken part in the rape/murder of a young woman or have been there when it happened, get away without answering for their actions or lack of action, as the case may be...

If Perugia were Bangkok, Moscow, Kuala Lampur, Rio or some other city where they cane you for chewing gum on the sidewalk..., a 3rd World city, in other words, I might have been able to go along with this argument that Mignini or the others tortured AK/RS. Unfortunately, I know Perugia pretty well. I know the majority of Carabinieri and Polizia there are professionals.

I hope the Polizia track down that 'Shaky' character soon. Meanwhile, everyone tell your kids to take their studying seriously, mind who they associate with, keep their bathrooms, clothing (and noses) clean, and most importantly... drin-) responsibly...


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:03 pm 
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"Could it be possible that one, if not THE unidentified individual who was present when MK was murdered may be the man that RS and AK were recorded speaking about in the Questura in the hours following the discovery of MK's body?. AK and RS referred to him as 'Shaky'"

I dont think that Shaky was the person Amanda was originally talking about in that conversation.
Amanda did not answer Raffaele's question of who she was talking about. Raffaele mentioned Shaky and Amanda said something about Shaky but she did not say it was him and changed topic.

Also in the trial she let the prosecutors follow the Shaky line.

But in that conversation she was talking about the person who had helped her get a job in Le Chic and now we know that it was Juve.

And also she said that person had played guitar with her in the cottage, again Juve was the one playing the guitar and he had visited the cottage according to Amanda"at least five times".


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:33 pm 
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Did Amanda make any girl friends in Perugia besides her flatmates ?


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 Post subject: Super Fly
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:53 pm 
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Fly by Night wrote:

Hi 411 - in this trial of super-witnesses and super-experts - it must be SuperFly, thank you. :shock:
I think you're correct in this assessment. The problem is, they don't seem to realize that it all comes at Meredith Kercher's expense.

SUPERFLY it is, then! Oh, What a great song to air- guitar to!!
band-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrHezTLex2s
We can hum it while reading your fine posts!
Heck, now I want to jump up and cut a mean rug to your signature song (or rather, I should do a "Funky Bathmat Shuffle", to keep it case-related.) R.I.P Curtis Mayfield. What a harrowing last few years he had, but what a great talent.

The 411 wrote:
QUESTION
Before I forget, I keep reading about a "48 Hours" program entitled "The Amanda Knox Story." As far as I know, there was no "48 Hours" with THAT title.


Right again - the first 48 hours special was actually called "A Long Way From Home" and it aired on April 12, 2008. The second came exactly one year later and was called "American Girl, Italian Nightmare".


I thought so; thanks for confirming that. A minor mistake, but we know that the devil is in the details! :evil:

It IS telling that they misreported the title as "The Amanda Knox Story"dontcha think?
st-))


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:13 pm 
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bucketoftea wrote:
Did Amanda make any girl friends in Perugia besides her flatmates ?


No, none.

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 Post subject: AMICHE di AMANDA???
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:28 pm 
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bucketoftea wrote:
Did Amanda make any girl friends in Perugia besides her flatmates ?


Ah, yes. A question I've raised here, and I'm sure many others have been curious about that aspect of her life.
If Amanda did make female friends in Perugia, those individuals certainly haven't been very vocal. In fact, they've been ABSOLUTELY SILENT, since day one.

I find that more than a bit unusual.
It would NOT be very odd if we knew Amanda to be the timid, introverted type who was solitary by nature. Except, she wasn't. In fact, she seemed to be almost an extrovert in the EXTREME.

She has at least a few female friends from her home town.

BUT-early reports I read about Amanda --by other women IN PERUGIA-- described her as loud, inappropriate and even obnoxious in her need to be the center of attention.

I could understand her not having any female friends IF she were in a male-dominated school or workplace. But Perugia has a large number of women in her age group, from a myriad of backgrounds and nationalities to choose from.

I believe she was unable to sustain any female friendships, because women detected something abrasive and unlikeable in her behavior, socially.

Additionally, Amanda didn't appear to WANT to cultivate any female friendships, as she was more interested in pursuing her conquests of the opposite gender.


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:58 pm 
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Alright, warning: Little rant coming up.

Now, many of you are deeply researched in this case. As an Admin here, I feel I have little choice but to read daily all the various other sites that 'cover' this case. Some of them are sites I'd prefer not to read, but there we are. I'm pretty thick skinned, you have to be to put yourself on the front line in this case, but I for one am getting sick and tired of seeing Mario Spezi's and Douglas Preston's book being touted every five minutes on those sites that seem to picture Amanda Knox nailed to a cross in some Golgotha that's been suddenly relocated to Italy. 'We' are supposed to see this book as not only the ultimate authority on the MOF case, but also by extension on Dr Mignini and the Meredith Kercher case (or as they would have it, the 'Knox' case). Even beyond that, they would have us accept this book as some sort of 'holy scripture'. Indeed, only very recently, some Knox supporter on Sfarzo's site announced 'Doug Preston is a god!' (I kid you not).

What they fail to mention (or even realise themselves most probably), is that books on the MOF case in Italy are ten a penny. Almost as many books have been written on that case, as on the Jack the Ripper case and more are coming out all the time. So why is Preston's book so special? Two reasons. Firstly, it is one of the minority of books on the MOF case written in English and therefore widely published in the US and secondly, it supports an FOA agenda, an agenda shared by the authors who have their own axe to grind with Dr Mignini, not to mention a hefty pile of cash to make.

The thing is, within this multitude of books written on the MOF case, WHY is it, the FOA are able to find only ONE that has a single bad thing to say about Dr Mignini?: How is it this 'Anti-Christ incarnate' has been able to trundle along for so many years and not a single other author has anything bad to say about him? Why is it, this 'evil' only exists in Preston and Spezi's book? What, did all of those other authors and investigators simply not notice? Are we supposed to accept that Preston and Spezi alone have discovered the 'truth', that they've cornered the market on it?

Meanwhile, we continue to get this book shoved down our throats, to the exclusion of all others. Why are no other books on the case mentioned...EVER? My rather informed and educated guess would be, that these books have nothing bad to say about prosecutor Mignini.

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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:38 pm 
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Thanks Michael, 411. I rather thought that would be the case. I think the abrasive quality women find in women like Amanda is barely concealed hostility. I thought men might not notice. LOL


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:03 am 
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Michel wrote:
"What they fail to mention (or even realise themselves most probably), is that books on the MOF case in Italy are ten a penny. Almost as many books have been written on that case, as on the Jack the Ripper case and more are coming out all the time. So why is Preston's book so special? Two resons. Firstly, it is one of the minority of books on the MOF case written in English and therefore widely published in the US and secondly, it supports an FOA agenda, an agenda shared by the authors who have their own axe to grind with Dr Mignini, not to mention a hefty pile of cash to make."

Hi Michael,

Actually here is one of many authors who wrote a MOF book. Magdalene Nabb and English writer of Italian Mysteries. Her book also the same title as Preston/Spezi's but hers came out long before theirs. Here is an interview she gave to Italian Mysteries, interesting what she says about giving information to a journalist who (most sure sounds like Spezi) started selling her researches everywhere he could including the New Yorker.

"I had a problem with the information that came to me. I wanted to write a work of fiction but, at the same time, a man was on trial as a serial killer and I had information the could be used in his defence. I took it to his lawyers. They, unfortunately, told me that they knew very little about the case because it went back too far and they couldn’t hope to study it in the time available. I gave them what I could and decided to make use of the newspaper. Again, because I wanted to write fiction and stay clear of the polemic, I gave information to a journalist who knew the case from the beginning and he published a series of articles on a daily basis during the appeal. This caused some excitement each morning in court but as to whether it was effective or not I’ll never know because the Prosecutor General was an honest and sensible man who knew how things stood. Instead of making a speech for the prosecution at the end of the trial he said the case didn’t hold water and Pacciani should be released. He was freed that same afternoon.

Unfortunately, I then had trouble with the journalist who began selling my researches anywhere he could, including to the New Yorker. When he tried to sell to the RAI (Italian State Television) they wouldn’t go ahead with their programme without seeing proof in the form of original documents. The journalist had to admit the stuff was mine and they came to me for it. I refused. It could have led to more unfounded accusations, the last thing I could allow."
http://italian-mysteries.com/nabb-interview-part08.html


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:24 am 
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Jools :)

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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:25 am 
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Jools wrote:

Quote:
Michael wrote:
"What they fail to mention (or even realise themselves most probably), is that books on the MOF case in Italy are ten a penny. Almost as many books have been written on that case, as on the Jack the Ripper case and more are coming out all the time. So why is Preston's book so special? Two resons. Firstly, it is one of the minority of books on the MOF case written in English and therefore widely published in the US and secondly, it supports an FOA agenda, an agenda shared by the authors who have their own axe to grind with Dr Mignini, not to mention a hefty pile of cash to make."

Hi Michael,

Actually here is one of many authors who wrote a MOF book. Magdalene Nabb and English writer of Italian Mysteries. Her book also the same title as Preston/Spezi's but hers came out long before theirs. Here is an interview she gave to Italian Mysteries, interesting what she says about giving information to a journalist who (most sure sounds like Spezi) started selling her researches everywhere he could including the New Yorker.


It seems fairly clear that one of the big reasons Preston needed to hitch his wagon to the murder of Meredith Kercher was to prevent his MOF book from getting lost in the huge pile of MOF books. What better way to stand apart from the pack than to find an original angle; what a stroke of luck for Preston and Spezi that Mignini happened to be the prosecutor in this sad murder in Perugia. Preston said in a 2005 interview (which many here have seen) that Mignini was only doing his job. I think he saw how effective his PEN connections could be when Spezi was jailed and filed that away for future use. If you read the online reviews of the Preston-Spezi MOF book, it is astonishing how many of them appear to have been written by the same people. And most of these people focus on the personal involvement of our two protagonists -- oops, I mean our two authors, whatever -- with Mignini.

I don't know if it is possible to get an accurate measurement, but they have surely gotten enormous mileage in the form of higher book sales from all of this. Indeed, is there any other reason that Preston tacked on his fact-free afterword to the MOF book, which is all about the murder in Perugia that occurred in November 2007 and which is wholly unconnected to the MOF case, except for the presence of Prosecutor Mignini. Is it any accident that the strikingly familiar details about what allegedly happened to Knox did not take shape until Preston so kindly provided them? I started to jot down the factual errors in the afterword, but I got tired after about three pages. If you know anything about the Meredith Kercher case, you can't read this crap with a straight face. And then you begin to wonder if the putative subject of the book -- that would be the Monster of Florence in case you forgot -- is treated with the same disregard for the facts and the truth.

Speaking of which, Anne Bremner is back on television -- I mean back on the case -- and has reversed the numbers on the interrogation. It is no longer 14 hours without food, water or air. It is now 41. Is she dyslexic or something?

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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:32 am 
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Magdalen Nabb was born in Lancashire and died on Saturday, August 18, 2007 at age only 60 while out riding near Florence.

So many unexplained deaths...

Perhaps by this means and others the Monster cabal in Florence have put the fear of death up our Dougie. That or theyre paying him very well.

So wonderful to have a conspicuous guy running around proclaiming "There really is no cabal..."

Pretty unusual too. Most crime writers are pretty pro cabal. Not fanatically anti.


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:00 am 
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Michael,
Thanks for the background on the MOF books.

And Jools,
You are GOOD.


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:49 pm 
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I really agree with Skeptical Bystander's take above on Preston. The guy is desperate for sales.

The hardcover of Preston's book is now selling for $7:79 and Amazon calls it a bargain book. It went over like a lead balloon in the US and UK and (to my knowledge) never appeared in Italy where it would REALLY have gotten roasted for its zillion ludicrous inaccuracies.

So much for Preston's foray into real crime!

But there's more. Much more.

I think at the core of Preston's problem is that he more and more over time (as Skep shows) over-reacted to Mignini's interrogating of Spetzi and himself - especially himself - when they appeared to be planting evidence or wrong ideas rather than helpfully solving the case as they claimed. (Let an Italian come to NYC and claim repeatedly to the media that the federal or state prosecutors have got it all wrong and they would helpfully solve the case!)

This means that if Preston heads back to Italy to be a part of Tom Cruise's absurd project to make a movie out of his book (Tom Cruise playing Spetzi? Gimme a break!) he could be in all kinds of legal trouble with Mignini. I had often wondered why Mignini did not simply set about suing Preston in London for zillions - the UK is where they have the toughest libel laws in the universe - but that can be explained by Mignini lying low in Italy until Preston reappears, and then - zonk!!

Talk to reporters in Italy and they pretty generally believe that there were two layers of perpetrators (in effect many monsters, not just one) in the Monster case - the simple guys who were arraigned, and a small shadowy elite group above them (I called them the cabal in my comment above) for which the murders played some sort of role in some sort of ritual as body-parts of some of the victims were removed.

Mignini seems to firmly believe that too - he has a conspiracy theory because there really was a conspiracy - and because one of the unexplained deaths happened in his jurisdiction (Doctor Naducci's drowning in Trasimeno) he got into the case from this angle (he thinks the cabal murdered Narducci).

Why Mignini was charged by the prosecutor in Florence (all this crap about abuse of office etc) is that he actually caught on a tape he secretly recorded one of the prosecutors in Florence in effect pulling his hair out because the cabal in Florence wouldnt let him investigate the case properly!

This is a real smoking gun. And if Preston wasnt so obsessive or so utterly incompetent at real crime reporting he would have realised this. In effect he and Mignini are really the most natural of allies.

Does everybody see what this means for Tom Cruise?! That in effect HE TOO will be playing the pet poodle of the cabal in Florence, trying to make out in his movie that they really dont exist!!

Michael, thanks for raising the MOF subject again, it always give me a good laugh, and on TJMK we sure aint done with it yet.

Peter Quennell


Last edited by Fast Pete on Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:04 pm 
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And just to add the very obvious...

In effect, all of the FOA's are also wittingly or unwittingly (presumably unwittingly) on the deny-that-the-cabal-exists bandwagon as well.

The cabal must be utterly thrilled at the bang they are getting for their buck here. You just cant make this stuff up.


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 Post subject: Anne Bremner
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:05 pm 
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Skep wrote:

Quote:
Speaking of which, Anne Bremner is back on television -- I mean back on the case -- and has reversed the numbers on the interrogation. It is no longer 14 hours without food, water or air. It is now 41. Is she dyslexic or something?


According to Anne's celebusite, http://annebremner.com/, "Anne has been selected by the Seattle P-I to contribute to a new feature called City Brights, which will be a collection of essays from notable and interesting Seattle residents. Her latest blarticle: SEATTLE PI CITY BRIGHTS STARRING ANNE BREMNER

Anne gives her take on her very own made up word, "blogulation." Funny, no mention of the Meredith Kercher murder.

A paragraph from Anne's PI Blog entry:

Quote:
Then there is the phenomena I call "blogulgation" -- when a group of bloggers feed off each other's posts, citing to each other as reliable sources to bolster the validity of their position. A diatribe by another blogger is tagged as "news" in a cyber game of telegraph, where a surreal "reality" is crafted from amalgamated speculation corroborated not by actual facts or independent investigation but by endorsement of other speculators. Often regurgitating outdated news, disproven facts, they share such a fanatic devotion to their cultivated theories that they become disturbingly hostile, on a personal level, towards anyone with divergent views. Rather than a quest for enlightenment or intellectual debate, these groups often evolve into a support group for those with identical, albeit misinformed opinions.


Dear Anne,

I couldn't have described the Knox/Mellas Foakers better. BRAVO! b-((


EDIT: Oh dear, I see that I misspelled Anne's made up word. The correct spelling is "blogulgation"...whateva.

_________________
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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:03 pm 
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Tara wrote:
Skep wrote:

Quote:
Speaking of which, Anne Bremner is back on television -- I mean back on the case -- and has reversed the numbers on the interrogation. It is no longer 14 hours without food, water or air. It is now 41. Is she dyslexic or something?


According to Anne's celebusite, http://annebremner.com/, "Anne has been selected by the Seattle P-I to contribute to a new feature called City Brights, which will be a collection of essays from notable and interesting Seattle residents. Her latest blarticle: SEATTLE PI CITY BRIGHTS STARRING ANNE BREMNER

Anne gives her take on her very own made up word, "blogulation." Funny, no mention of the Meredith Kercher murder.

A paragraph from Anne's PI Blog entry:

Quote:
Then there is the phenomena I call "blogulgation" -- when a group of bloggers feed off each other's posts, citing to each other as reliable sources to bolster the validity of their position. A diatribe by another blogger is tagged as "news" in a cyber game of telegraph, where a surreal "reality" is crafted from amalgamated speculation corroborated not by actual facts or independent investigation but by endorsement of other speculators. Often regurgitating outdated news, disproven facts, they share such a fanatic devotion to their cultivated theories that they become disturbingly hostile, on a personal level, towards anyone with divergent views. Rather than a quest for enlightenment or intellectual debate, these groups often evolve into a support group for those with identical, albeit misinformed opinions.


Dear Anne,

I couldn't have described the Knox/Mellas Foakers better. BRAVO! b-((


EDIT: Oh dear, I see that I misspelled Anne's made up word. The correct spelling is "blogulgation"...whateva.



Did she swallow a dictionary ? Oh dear, she will be tu-))

oop-)

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The truth is "hate speech" only to those who have something to hide.- Michael Rivero


Last edited by jhansigirl on Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:21 pm 
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Hitting out at "blogulation" is nothing new and you can find it argued a lot more convincingly and less whinier than by Ann Bremner.

It is worth pointing out that while the Seattle PI paper version was tanking, in part because of some amazingly inaccurate reporting and many biased editorials, both PMF and TJMK were rising up into the top 10-20 percent of all websites in the world.

Ask the media folks why this happened, when they will talk to you off the record, and they will all admit to your face: a good website or forum simply does a better job of the truth these days.

I have heard in the past few days alone that detached case-followers in all three of the New York-based networks are in awe of what we have achieved on our sites. All of them regard us as objective.

They all wanted to adopt Kermit, too, so I sent them the 3-inch stuffed version. Nobody wanted the 3-inch high Anne Bremner.

Peter Quennell


Last edited by Fast Pete on Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:44 pm 
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oh that incompetent italian legal system, they've just agreed to hold ole silvio accountable -- FINALLY!!!

Berlusconi immunity 'overturned'

Italy's highest court has overturned a law granting Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi immunity from prosecution while in office, local media report.

The Constitutional Court was said to have annulled the law, which had let him withdraw from several cases. In one he was facing corruption charges.

The law was passed soon after Mr Berlusconi came to power last year.

Opponents say the granting of immunity violates the principle that all citizens are equal before the law.

There has been speculation in Italy that court cases against the prime minister could resume if the law was annulled.

'Distractions'

When Mr Berlusconi came to office he was facing a number of court cases, including one involving the British lawyer David Mills.

In that case Mr Berlusconi was accused of bribing him to give false evidence.

Mills, who said he was innocent, was sentenced in February to four years and six months in prison for corruption.

The appeal to the Constitutional Court was launched by prosecutors from that case and two others.

They contended that immunity put Mr Berlusconi above the law and needed to be reversed.

Mr Berlusconi argued that immunity allowed him to govern without being "distracted" by the judiciary.


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 Post subject: Re: AMICHE di AMANDA???
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:47 pm 
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The 411 wrote:
I believe she was unable to sustain any female friendships, because women detected something abrasive and unlikeable in her behavior, socially.

Additionally, Amanda didn't appear to WANT to cultivate any female friendships, as she was more interested in pursuing her conquests of the opposite gender.


I immediately recall that Amanda at one point told Meredith that she would let her have Giacomo Silenzi, in so many words. There was a very touching article by Nick Pisa in the MailOnline mere weeks after the murder where Giacomo is quoted as saying:

"I couldn't help thinking how cool and calm Amanda was. Meredith's other English friends were devastated and I was upset, but Amanda was as cool as anything and completely emotionless. Her eyes didn't seem to show any sadness and I remember wondering if she could have been involved. I spoke with her English friends Robyn [Butterworth] and Sophie [Purton] afterwards, and they said the same thing. None of us could quite understand how she was taking it all so calmly. I knew that Amanda didn't get on with Meredith, but I didn't think that would lead to Amanda killing her."


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 Post subject: Re: AMICHE di AMANDA???
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:50 pm 
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In the article by Nick Pisa in the MailOnline from mid-November 2007 Nick says:

"It also emerged yesterday that police were closing in on a fourth suspect after discovering new unidentified bloody fingerprints on Meredith's pillow and a piece of toilet roll in the flat. Police sources said he was a North African drug pusher who sold hashish to Knox and Sollecito, both selfconfessed dope smokers."

So there was a bloody print in the i-Pod bathroom? That doesn't fit with Guede's so-called "alibi". So have the police actually documented that Guede was the source for Knox and Sollecito's dope? That doesn't fit with "don't know the dude" statements from both Knox and Sollecito, but it certainly could explain the alleged hookup at the basketball court on the night of the murder and short walk over to the cottage from there.


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:59 am 
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Barbie Nadeau from Newsweek has a new article out entitled ‘The Italian Job’.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/216903?from=rss

I think she got the name from an American Spy thriller movie from 2003.


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:48 am 
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Does Nadeau have an Antonio Curatolo detail correct here? She specifically indicates in this article that he DID NOT have a watch.
But, I recall differently.... wasn't he asked on the stand how he, a homeless man, could have possibly know the times the night of the murder?
Didn't he then answer by testifying that that he knew the times because looked at His WATCH? (prompting some giggles in the courtroom).


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 Post subject: Newsweek Article
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:51 am 
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The 411 wrote:
Does Nadeau have an Antonio Curatolo detail correct here? She specifically indicates in this article that he DID NOT have a watch.
But, I recall differently.... wasn't he asked on the stand how he, a homeless man, could have possibly know the times the night of the murder?
Didn't he then answer by testifying that that he knew the times because looked at His WATCH? (prompting some giggles in the courtroom).


You have a sharp eye and good memory, 411. According to StewartHome, who was in attendance at that specific March 28th trial session:

"Under cross examination, Buongiorno thought she had an easy target, but in fact he held up extremely well. She asked, “how could you possibly know it was 9:30”..he said because the sign next to the piazza has a digital clock. He also said I have a watch! (the court laughed) and I look at it often to check he time. He stated that “when I sat on the bench to read I looked at my watch and it was just before 9:30pm….and I saw them shortly afterwards.” He said he knows what he saw and he saw those two! No more questions."

The Nadeau Newsweek article this Wednesday may be debatable on certain points but, in general, is very clear and concise. It seems to have caused a real meltdown on the Shock - comments erased and shut down - go figure.

According to Nadeau, it was a 6 hour 45 minute maximum interrogation - sorry Ms. Bremner, but 41 hours is clearly out of the question and you now look like a total idiot - complete with idiot's smile. Nadeau also provides a Newsweek exclusive: Sollecito did not take the stand during this trial because he could not corroborate Knox's alibi.


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 Post subject: Re: AMICHE di AMANDA???
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:31 am 
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Fly by Night wrote:
The 411 wrote:
I believe she was unable to sustain any female friendships, because women detected something abrasive and unlikeable in her behavior, socially.

Additionally, Amanda didn't appear to WANT to cultivate any female friendships, as she was more interested in pursuing her conquests of the opposite gender.


WOW!! What a ton of information out here today!! Time to break out some vintage potion! :D

I just had to say in my opinion you are absolutely right on target 411 for the above comments. Guessing at what makes her tick I have said before I think she is intimidated around women and feels inferior (due to her dysfunctional upbringing) and she is very competitive with the boys always trying to prove herself as being worthy (like her relationships with her Dads?).

The flip side of this is she is unable to be intimate (again, imagine what the home life was like....) and does not know compassion since she never received any herself. But come on, many children come from poor home environments and they either meet the challenge and rise above it or they never "get” neither relationships nor love. Everyone doesn't come out of a killer but in this case there are a few who did and it is interesting to look at what traits could make these people act so evil.
R.I.P. Meredith Kercher.

The FOAKers really set themselves up for this one. They try like hell to get everyone to believe Amanda came from a fine upper class family as if that was alone is the reason she couldn't have been a killer -but the truth is she did NOT come from some fine upper class family - in fact just the opposite so I guess that means she COULD be a killer according to their reasoning.
wh-)

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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:08 am 
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DLW wrote:
Barbie Nadeau from Newsweek has a new article out entitled ‘The Italian Job’.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/216903?from=rss

I think she got the name from an American Spy thriller movie from 2003.


Or, it could be based on the original British film on which the American film was based on. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: SAY CURT, DO YOU WANT TO GO FISHING NEXT WEEKEND?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:07 am 
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Kermit wrote:

It saddens me to no end to know that people will make money out giving credit and publicity to the stories of the suspects / potentially future convicted criminals.


Hi Kermit

Ditto. It is turning murder (or even crime in general) into a lucrative business.

Edda and Curt are very irresponsible parents for dragging the younger children into this quagmire. For the sake of their sanity they should be shielding them from this.
I dread to think what they will turn out like. Like Amanda perhaps?

To all intents and purposes Edda and Curt would appear to be publicly advocating drug-taking, deceit, criminal actions, murder and indiscriminate sex. And add extortion to the list as well.

Without doubt they must be the worst parents in the world.

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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:58 am 
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Good Morning! still on my first bucket.....

I'm wondering what everyone makes of Barbie Nadeau's analysis from the article linked above, and which direction the different evidence leads things. eg

quote
Evidence: Cartwheels, splits, vibrator, and motive
Who it hurts: The prosecution


I'm not sure this hurts the prosecution at all except that it gives her supporters something to talk about. I understand that these behavioural things and what they might mean are very difficult to pin down, but they are real red flags for me that something's not right, not just that she would make a terrible flatmate. (I'm citing all the weird antisocial behaviour)


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 11:08 am 
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bucketoftea wrote:
Good Morning! still on my first bucket.....

I'm wondering what everyone makes of Barbie Nadeau's analysis from the article linked above, and which direction the different evidence leads things. eg

quote
Evidence: Cartwheels, splits, vibrator, and motive
Who it hurts: The prosecution


I'm not sure this hurts the prosecution at all except that it gives her supporters something to talk about. I understand that these behavioural things and what they might mean are very difficult to pin down, but they are real red flags for me that something's not right, not just that she would make a terrible flatmate. (I'm citing all the weird antisocial behaviour)


I completely agree with you. That isn't the only point I disagree with. Barbie Nadeau writes in her article:
Quote:
Evidence: Conflicting alibis
Who it hurts: Unknown


I disagree. The alibis of the defendants are not only conflicting with each others statements but with the evidence as well and therefore not believable. Take for example the Scott Peterson case. The police became suspect of him due to inconsistencies in his story and later he was sentenced to death row. In his case there was as good as no physical evidence at all, only his lies and his behaviour which incriminated him. I see some parallels here.

I also noted that Barbie Nadeau thinks Amanda's weird behaviour outside the courtroom is not incriminating while her weird behaviour inside the courtroom in her opinion incriminates Amanda Knox.

I understand that the double-DNA-knife doesn't have the same weigh as evidence as for example the victim's blood mixed with Amanda's DNA, but I don't believe it 'incriminates' the prosecution to say the least. I actually don't have any doubt that Meredith's DNA was on the blade and therefore this knife must have been used in the attack. The situation now sharpens as we can see the evidence and the defendants statements together as a whole.

I disagree with Barbie's opinion regarding the fingerprints and the bra clasp, but the 'remaining' evidence is still damning, even if you see it through Barbie Nadeau's eyes.


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 Post subject: Re: Newsweek Article
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:22 pm 
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Fly by Night wrote:
--- snip ---
The Nadeau Newsweek article this Wednesday may be debatable on certain points but, in general, is very clear and concise. It seems to have caused a real meltdown on the Shock - comments erased and shut down - go figure.
--- snap ---


Really deep comments over at Frank's:

Quote:
Michael said...
Sorry I had to pop upstairs for a bit to wipe Rudy's santorum off my chin. I'm back on the front lines now! :)

October 7, 2009 7:13 PM


or

Quote:
TLC said...
I love you Damiano. Kisses!

October 7, 2009 6:22 PM


or

Quote:
frank said...
This guy from pfm keeping on posting that andrea article is not making a good service to her.
she wrote those bullshits because she was a little jealous... I love her, but unfortunately for her that wasn't exactly a proof of professionalism...
As for myself they can say all bullshits they want about me, I don't even know who these people are, I don't care!

October 7, 2009 5:55 PM


wg-))


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:35 pm 
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Harry Wilkens said
Candace: Fed up with those "nice student blogs" and their fake travel reports. You can't even put there a comment. It's just one way...


Just made me laugh, that's all.


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:35 pm 
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Real fun stuff Nell.

On Frank's last comment - he still hides behind an alias in cowardly anonymity though. We dont know who HE is either.

And how can negative comments about him mean anything either way if they never include his name?

Most of the journalists covering the case know Frank's real name - and consider him a real coward for being just "Frank".

Peter Quennell


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:54 pm 
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I noticed John Follain's book "End of Innocence" is available for pre-order on Amazon.ca It has a release date of November 26, but I wonder if it will be delayed for a verdict.


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:09 pm 
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The 411 wrote:
Does Nadeau have an Antonio Curatolo detail correct here? She specifically indicates in this article that he DID NOT have a watch.
But, I recall differently.... wasn't he asked on the stand how he, a homeless man, could have possibly know the times the night of the murder?
Didn't he then answer by testifying that that he knew the times because looked at His WATCH? (prompting some giggles in the courtroom).


Hi 411

We've heard from several sources that Stew Home got this one wrong - as Stew himself admitted, his Italian is far from perfect.

Curatolo looked only at the digital clock by the park. The onlookers laughed because he said something about not needing a watch.

Peter Quennell


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:27 pm 
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In the case of Barbie's latest article, While there are a couple of inaccuracies, all in all it's a good and interesting article.

Regarding Frank's cess pit, it would seem there was a battle last night with Frank himself involved. The result was blood on the walls and the inevitable teddy bear being thrown out of the cot by Frank. Apparently, Frank was foaming at the mouth because some kept linking to and posting extracts from, Andrea Vogts article on the blog wars which famously included Frank saying he was financed by an American firm. He was annoyed with it on three counts. Firstly, because in the same article, as well as mentioning his site, the article also referred to PMF and TJMK (in Frank's words, the 'stupids'). Secondly, because the article referred to his blog as a 'defence' blog. As such, Frank has now announced that the linking to ANY article that says his blog is a 'defence' blog is banned and will be deleted. I find this rather strange, as I recall him saying a few months ago that he was only too happy to be referred to as a defence blog. So, something's changed there. Thirdly, he's of course not happy about his blog being publicly associated with this American firm (or maybe it's this firm that isn't happy about it). Frank announced Andrea wrote this because she was jealous of him, although he wouldn't answer the question of what it was that Andrea Vogt was specifically jealous of. And of course, because he didn't want any of this referred to, people kept on posting it, the FOA rushed in to his aid...and, deleting frenzy ensued.

As for Harry Wilkens and his Pals, who seem to be spreading sites like some plague. Someone needs to tell them that it's quality rather then quantity that counts.

Bess - Folain's book will probably be one worth reading.

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THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:04 pm 
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John Follain's book will be out now in January and it is to be called Death in Perugia.

John is the Sunday Times correspondent in Italy and, like Nina Burleigh, has a string of extremely well-researched books to his name.

I think with those two the truth is in very good hands.

Peter Quennell

Added: The publisher says the date is now back to this November. the title above is correct. We have a large image of the cover.


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 Post subject: Re: Newsweek Article
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:48 pm 
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Nell wrote:
Fly by Night wrote:
--- snip ---
The Nadeau Newsweek article this Wednesday may be debatable on certain points but, in general, is very clear and concise. It seems to have caused a real meltdown on the Shock - comments erased and shut down - go figure.
--- snap ---


Really deep comments over at Frank's:

Quote:
Michael said...
Sorry I had to pop upstairs for a bit to wipe Rudy's santorum off my chin. I'm back on the front lines now! :)

October 7, 2009 7:13 PM


or

Quote:
TLC said...
I love you Damiano. Kisses!

October 7, 2009 6:22 PM


or

Quote:
frank said...
This guy from pfm keeping on posting that andrea article is not making a good service to her.
she wrote those bullshits because she was a little jealous... I love her, but unfortunately for her that wasn't exactly a proof of professionalism...
As for myself they can say all bullshits they want about me, I don't even know who these people are, I don't care!

October 7, 2009 5:55 PM


wg-))


I don's see why Andrea Vogt, a professional journalist with some specific accomplishments to her fully disclosed name (including a book), would be jealous of Frank Sfarzo, who hides behind a stage name and runs a blog that seems to attract the lunatic fringe of the FOA 24/7.

As for her professionalism with regard to the article that seems to have Frank's kangaroo undies in a twist, I was interviewed for and quoted in the article, so I had contact with the professional who wrote it. I also got a glimpse of the laborious process that led to its publication. It was thoroughly researched and thoroughly verified at every turn - by Andrea Vogt. For example, Steve Huff's name came up in our interview. I explained the "whorcairz" story and Steve Huff's article about the threatening emails he received from Chris Mellas and his Goofy, and also provided the relevant links. But Vogt went even further, contacting Steve Huff for corroboration and comments. He is also quoted in the article. "Frank Sfarzo" is mentioned as having told Vogt he was financed by an American firm. He has alluded to funding elsewhere, stating that he has been funded in the Shock venture from the very start. Frankly (no pun intended), I think he is not being truthful. About anything. In reply to questions after his famous "interview" with Knox from her prison cell, he claimed to have been a former reporter, specializing in pro cycling, theater and crime. Of course, there is no way to verify this unless you know his real name. And there are no articles written by the "real" Frank Sfarzo as far as I was able to ascertain. His past as a crime reporter is about as real as Candace's and may even have been inspired by her story. (Can anyone out there come up with even one crime beat report that Candace Dempsey has written, for the Spokesman Review or any other publication?)

In another instance, Frank Sfarzo told a Seattle reporter (Jonathan Martin) that he was a film professor in Perugia. When I asked him about it, he said he just made it up.

As far as I can tell, the only thing Andrea Vogt or anyone else could possibly be jealous of with respect to Frank is his breezy lack of concern for the truth. And that is hardly an asset or a quality in the profession he "professes" to be part of. In fact, I suspect that Frank is jealous of the group of reporters following this case who have bona fide credentials and a serious, impartial approach. Next to them, he is just a pompous buffoon and a hopeless amateur.

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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:13 pm 
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Quote:
Quote:
Michael said...
Sorry I had to pop upstairs for a bit to wipe Rudy's santorum off my chin. I'm back on the front lines now!

October 7, 2009 7:13 PM


I'll quickly point out, just in case there's anybody who doesn't realise, this post on Frank's was not made by me. Michael doesn't post on Frank's anymore and hasn't done for months. The FOA sure love writing posts using my name though (as well as other peoples), it's all a part of the bullying and lack of a shred of honesty among them. Of course, Frank allows it. This is another reason for Frank's ire with Andrea Vogt and her article, as she points out what a hole his blog is. Of course, Frank reacted by moderating his blog (which was pretty hit and miss at best) for a short time and then when he thought he was off the hook, he let all the freaks run free again. Now, it's worse then it ever was. That of course all changes when Frank finds himself as being the focus. Then he throws a tantrum and closes down his comments section until his next 'artcle' and so on it goes.

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 Post subject: Re: Newsweek Article
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:17 pm 
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Skeptical Bystander wrote:
.... I suspect that Frank is jealous of the group of reporters following this case who have bona fide credentials and a serious, impartial approach. Next to them, he is just a pompous buffoon and a hopeless amateur.


Right. Frank is universally regarded as a joke - as a series of jokes - among the serious reporters and and he does appear to be riddled with jealousy and lack of status and paranoia (hence no real name) and a boatload of other complexes.

He is also said by many to be extremely personally menacing at times. If he really loses it one day, we can then all go poke peanuts through the bars at him in Capanne.

Peter Quennell (my real name!)


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 Post subject: Re: Newsweek Article
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:24 pm 
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Nell wrote:
Fly by Night wrote:
--- snip ---
The Nadeau Newsweek article this Wednesday may be debatable on certain points but, in general, is very clear and concise. It seems to have caused a real meltdown on the Shock - comments erased and shut down - go figure.
--- snap ---


Really deep comments over at Frank's:

Quote:
Michael said...
Sorry I had to pop upstairs for a bit to wipe Rudy's santorum off my chin. I'm back on the front lines now! :)

October 7, 2009 7:13 PM


or

Quote:
TLC said...
I love you Damiano. Kisses!

October 7, 2009 6:22 PM


or

Quote:
frank said...
This guy from pfm keeping on posting that andrea article is not making a good service to her.
she wrote those bullshits because she was a little jealous... I love her, but unfortunately for her that wasn't exactly a proof of professionalism...
As for myself they can say all bullshits they want about me, I don't even know who these people are, I don't care!

October 7, 2009 5:55 PM


wg-))



Interesting. I was not expecting to see this use of "santorum." Someone's been reading Savage Love. (Washington state residing Dan Savage's advice column. He was so disgusted by politician Rick Santorum that he held a contest with his readers to redefine "santorum.")

P.S. And Michael, no fears. We know this is not you.


Last edited by Shirley on Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:27 pm 
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Frank's readership is ABSOLUTELY TANKING by the way. He now seems to be down to several dozen.

The worst - by far - that it has ever been. Alexa is reporting that his past three-month average in the world was 11,639,598th.

And there are only 11,639,599 websites in the worrrld! Well, maybe a few more than that. But there are zillions of nice sweet schoolgirl blogs and stuff that do better than that.

Really, why does he BOTHER?

Peter Quennell

Added: It amazes me that some journalists still like to call this "blog wars". The internet readership has voted with their mice and are OVERWHELMINGL now for Meredith.

Literally by a factor of 20 or 30 to one now. Not exactly a war. No wonder our sites are making Ann Bremner look cross-eyed.


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 Post subject: Re: Newsweek Article
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:23 pm 
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Shirley wrote:
Nell wrote:
Fly by Night wrote:
--- snip ---
The Nadeau Newsweek article this Wednesday may be debatable on certain points but, in general, is very clear and concise. It seems to have caused a real meltdown on the Shock - comments erased and shut down - go figure.
--- snap ---


Really deep comments over at Frank's:

Quote:
Michael said...
Sorry I had to pop upstairs for a bit to wipe Rudy's santorum off my chin. I'm back on the front lines now! :)

October 7, 2009 7:13 PM


or

Quote:
TLC said...
I love you Damiano. Kisses!

October 7, 2009 6:22 PM


or

Quote:
frank said...
This guy from pfm keeping on posting that andrea article is not making a good service to her.
she wrote those bullshits because she was a little jealous... I love her, but unfortunately for her that wasn't exactly a proof of professionalism...
As for myself they can say all bullshits they want about me, I don't even know who these people are, I don't care!

October 7, 2009 5:55 PM


wg-))



Interesting. I was not expecting to see this use of "santorum." Someone's been reading Savage Love. (Washington state residing Dan Savage's advice column. He was so disgusted by politician Rick Santorum that he held a contest with his readers to redefine "santorum.")

P.S. And Michael, no fears. We know this is not you.



Let's see now..... State of Washington, Dan Savage, Rick Santorum. You don't suppose the comment was made by a local do you?! Why is there no emoticon holding a sign that says Duh!

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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:36 pm 
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Skep said


Let's see now..... State of Washington, Dan Savage, Rick Santorum. You don't suppose the comment was made by a local do you?! Why is there no emoticon holding a sign that says Duh!


Because it's not a posh site like what this is ;)

hi pete


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:10 pm 
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Fast Pete wrote:
No wonder our sites are making Ann Bremner look cross-eyed.


Every time I see Anne Bremner on television she makes a fool of herself. She analysed the wrong crime scene on MSNBC last year. I saw her interviewed on ABC News recently and she got her facts wrong again. She claimed that the Italian legal system has eight jurors and two judges.

Anne Bremner also gave the impression that Amanda Knox was questioned continuously for 41 hours on 5 November. The police started questioning Knox at approximately 11pm and the questioning was stopped at 1.45am when Knox became a suspect.

Furthermore, Bremner repeated the claim that Knox was hit when she was being questioned without offering any proof whatsover.

http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=8690894


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:26 pm 
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The Machine wrote:
Anne Bremner also gave the impression that Amanda Knox was questioned continuously for 41 hours on 5 November. The police started questioning Knox at approximately 11pm and the questioning was stopped at 1.45am when Knox became a suspect.

Furthermore, Bremner repeated the claim that Knox was hit when she was being questioned without offering any proof whatsover.



What are the police doing with regards to these allegations? It seems to me that the FOA are slandering them left right and centre and the police are not saying or doing anything.

Will there ever be payback? pf-))

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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:56 pm 
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Fast Pete wrote:
John Follain's book will be out now in January and it is to be called Death in Perugia.

John is the Sunday Times correspondent in Italy and, like Nina Burleigh, has a string of extremely well-researched books to his name.

I think with those two the truth is in very good hands.

Peter Quennell

Added: The publisher says the date is now back to this November. the title above is correct. We have a large image of the cover.


I hope his book offers the high quality standard of his early reporting on the case. But he seems to have stopped filing stories. I wonder if he has continued to attend hearings.

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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:22 pm 
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The Machine wrote:
Anne Bremner also gave the impression that Amanda Knox was questioned continuously for 41 hours on 5 November. The police started questioning Knox at approximately 11pm and the questioning was stopped at 1.45am when Knox became a suspect.

Furthermore, Bremner repeated the claim that Knox was hit when she was being questioned without offering any proof whatsover.



What are the police doing with regards to these allegations? It seems to me that the FOA are slandering them left right and centre and the police are not saying or doing anything.

Will there ever be payback? pf-))

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 Post subject: John Follain
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:57 pm 
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Skeptical Bystander wrote:
I hope his book offers the high quality standard of his early reporting on the case. But he seems to have stopped filing stories. I wonder if he has continued to attend hearings.


The last piece I have seen from Follain was last June:

Amanda Knox tells of Meredith Kercher’s ‘yucky’ death

It seems clear that he's been hard at work finishing up the book in recent months.

For the book Death in Perugia the publisher indicates that Follain interviewed the Kerchers. Very interesting that Rudy is not pictured on the cover of the book even though he has already been convicted of having a hand in Meredith's death - that is quite telling in itself. Follain claims to have all the court documents, including the 10K page initial findings of the investigation and his book is due November 26th.

Candace Dempsey's Murder in Italy is not yet a blip on the radar; perhaps Rudy will get his due respect by being prominently featured on her cover.

Publisher's Forward:
"Shortly after 1 pm on 2 November 2007, two police officers entered the home of the 21-year-old Meredith Kercher in the picturesque Italian town of Perugia. Inside, Kercher’s half-naked body lay on the floor under a beige quilt. Her throat had been slashed.

A week later, the prosecutor jailed Kercher’s housemate Amanda Knox, a beautiful, star college student from Seattle, and Raffaele Sollecito, her Italian boyfriend. Later he also jailed Rudy Guede, an Ivory Coast drifter. The prosecutor accused them of sexually abusing then murdering Kercher in a perverse, drug-fuelled sex game.

The family of Amanda Knox describes her as a wholesome girl-next-door. The media labelled her ‘Foxy Knoxy’, a man-eating cold-blooded murderess. So who is the real Amanda Knox, and is she a killer?

This is the unrivalled account of an investigation and trial full of astonishing twists and turns, based on access to the complete, 10,000 page files of the judicial and police probe including Knox’s diary, as well as exclusive interviews with investigators, lawyers, and family and friends of the accused and of the victim. John Follain seeks to answer the questions – who killed Meredith, how, and why?"


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 Post subject: Re: John Follain
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:40 pm 
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Fly by Night wrote:
The media labelled her ‘Foxy Knoxy’, a man-eating cold-blooded murderess. So who is the real Amanda Knox, and is she a killer?


I'm surprised John Follian wrote this. Amanda Knox called herself Foxy Knoxy on her MySpace page. The media just used the nickname she called herself.


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 Post subject: Re: John Follain
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:26 pm 
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The Machine wrote:
Fly by Night wrote:
The media labelled her ‘Foxy Knoxy’, a man-eating cold-blooded murderess. So who is the real Amanda Knox, and is she a killer?


I'm surprised John Follian wrote this. Amanda Knox called herself Foxy Knoxy on her MySpace page. The media just used the nickname she called herself.


I'm surprised also, there is plenty of evidence she labelled herself as "foxy Knoxy" on her MySpace page. Even Friends reffered to her with that name.
Link to a mirroed Foxy Knoxy page:
http://tinyurl.com/yjgnurs


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:38 pm 
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Michael wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
Michael said...
Sorry I had to pop upstairs for a bit to wipe Rudy's santorum off my chin. I'm back on the front lines now!

October 7, 2009 7:13 PM


I'll quickly point out, just in case there's anybody who doesn't realise, this post on Frank's was not made by me.

Sorry for that, Michael. I thought it was self-understanding. sor-)


Michael wrote:
Michael doesn't post on Frank's anymore and hasn't done for months. The FOA sure love writing posts using my name though (as well as other peoples), it's all a part of the bullying and lack of a shred of honesty among them. Of course, Frank allows it. This is another reason for Frank's ire with Andrea Vogt and her article, as she points out what a hole his blog is. Of course, Frank reacted by moderating his blog (which was pretty hit and miss at best) for a short time and then when he thought he was off the hook, he let all the freaks run free again. Now, it's worse then it ever was. That of course all changes when Frank finds himself as being the focus. Then he throws a tantrum and closes down his comments section until his next 'artcle' and so on it goes.


Yes, that is one of the qualities of Frank's blog. The FOA can insult and impersonate whoever they want to. Frank won't do anything about it. Funny that he censored excerpts and a link to a well written article from a neutral and professional journalist like Andrea Vogt. As if this wasn't enough he had to insult her. He called Andrea Vogt's article bullshit and said she was jealous of him. It's just plain ridiculous. No idea what readers he thinks he will attract with that blog. His last two articles were a complete flop and the comment section is possibly more popular than his articles. Now with the comment section closed he won't even attract FOA, because they cannot rant there anymore. Great move, Frank! What an outstanding and intelligent decision! That was the best you could do if you want to end up 11,639,599!

Frank, you did it! tt-)


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:45 pm 
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jhansigirl wrote:
The Machine wrote:
Anne Bremner also gave the impression that Amanda Knox was questioned continuously for 41 hours on 5 November. The police started questioning Knox at approximately 11pm and the questioning was stopped at 1.45am when Knox became a suspect.

Furthermore, Bremner repeated the claim that Knox was hit when she was being questioned without offering any proof whatsover.



What are the police doing with regards to these allegations? It seems to me that the FOA are slandering them left right and centre and the police are not saying or doing anything.

Will there ever be payback? pf-))

Hi Jhansigirl,
All the police involved in the interrogation have appeared in court and testified that there was no abuse.It will be interesting to see who the judges will believe.

BTW ,for an investigation to start,Knox should have filed a complaint but she hasn't done it so far. I think the Perugia police are too busy catching criminals to bother about a few slandering articles appearing on minor foreign press, and I guess this is why they are not saying nor doing anything...basically, they couldn't care less about these uninfluent characters who seem to have nothing better to do than endlessy repeat a bunch of predjudice-filled, ignorant and xenophobic lies.

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 Post subject: Re: John Follain
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:12 pm 
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The Machine wrote:
Fly by Night wrote:
The media labelled her ‘Foxy Knoxy’, a man-eating cold-blooded murderess. So who is the real Amanda Knox, and is she a killer?


I'm surprised John Follian wrote this. Amanda Knox called herself Foxy Knoxy on her MySpace page. The media just used the nickname she called herself.


This is from the short description of the book outside the cover? The media labelled her "Foxy Knoxy" - even though she used that name herself before. I believe there is nothing wrong with that sentence. The author will possibly go into details and elaborate - but not on the cover.


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 Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:40 pm 
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Every time I see Anne Bremner on television she makes a fool of herself. She analysed the wrong crime scene on MSNBC last year. I saw her interviewed on ABC News recently and she got her facts wrong again. She claimed that the Italian legal system has eight jurors and two judges.


http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=8690894

Hi Machine,

I completely agree with you. Not just foolish, but dishonest! It doesnt take much to pick up on her body language- she's not as calm and confident about her facts as she wants everybody to think. I find it shocking that she would lie regarding a matter of such great of importance. SHAME ON YOU ANNE BREMNER!


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 Post subject: Re: John Follain
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:59 pm 
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Nell wrote:
The Machine wrote:
Fly by Night wrote:
The media labelled her ‘Foxy Knoxy’, a man-eating cold-blooded murderess. So who is the real Amanda Knox, and is she a killer?


I'm surprised John Follian wrote this. Amanda Knox called herself Foxy Knoxy on her MySpace page. The media just used the nickname she called herself.


This is from the short description of the book outside the cover? The media labelled her "Foxy Knoxy" - even though she used that name herself before. I believe there is nothing wrong with that sentence. The author will possibly go into details and elaborate - but not on the cover.



Exactly: she called herself something and the media labelled her something. It is a different thing. A different way of using the same name. Something almost private has become universally acknowledged. It doesn't say anything about her guilt, but it says a lot about the media. They accepted and used her private joke about herself (or wish, to be seen as "foxy") to get to more readers. So, they "labelled" her: the name doesn't make her innocent, doesn't make her guilty -- but more readers will be interested and will be remembering.


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 Post subject: LOCKING THREAD
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 11:33 pm 
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This topic has been locked by a Moderator
Reason: Hello everyone,

I am now locking this thread. Please continue the discussion in the new main disusion thread: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 9 -

Thank You

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike

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