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VI. MAIN DISCUSSION, Jan 1 - Feb 28, 09

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Offline Giustizia


Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:13 pm

Posts: 113

Location: New York City

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:44 pm   Post subject:    

Kermit wrote:
Hi Giustizia, I like your idea of trying to stitch together everything. The only problem, and it is a big problem, is the time and effort. We have tons of text, tons of images, links to audio .... As regards the powerpoints, each one was done at a specific point in time - with the state of publicly available information at that time - and may require updating or pruning or extending before combining into the Mother of All Powerpoints (!).


Let me give this some thought. If you read my post earlier today to Skeptical Bystander, I have a lot of experience and background on the Internet and in technology, so I'm going to ask my colleagues about how, essentially, to enhance the presentation of all the data. I'll search for free software or an application that improves/enhances the user experience (I'm on a project now in which we're currently focusing on information architecture).

The object here is not to make any more work for anyone. You mention editing too, and that just sparked an idea. Really what we're looking for is a turbo-charged Wikipedia that can only be edited by those who have been vetted and also has a module for multimedia - in other words, a way to add links to audio and video. In addition, this forum could sit within that structure - again, that's not much work to migrate it over. Plus, I'm in no way looking to eliminate/replace this forum.

A wiki would eliminate most of the problems a user experiences now - frankly, a forum isn't the right tool for some of the discussions we're having. Just one example is the washing machine. I know that there have been many different discussions on this forum about that topic, but they're disjointed. A wiki would allow version control too and show a history of the edits/changes as all of us together learned more about the topic.
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Offline Kermit


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Posts: 580

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:54 pm   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
*I realize that in your set-up Judge Heavey remains back in the state of Washington, I have decided to bring him along. Maybe I should add a little BMW convertible sitting in the driveway, with Anne Bremner sitting inside drumming her French manicured nails on the dashboard and looking at herself in the overhead mirror on the passenger side.


That's fine Skep. In fact, The Judge IS there. I forgot to tell you that the Daisyhill Detective Academy uses the "Buddy" mentoring system. For people like Captain Cook and Hairy to move up the system, they get in situ over-the-shoulder support. (Paul would have been there too if he didn't have to stay behind for the catch-up acoustics exam).

The Hot Shot Lawyer's BMW at the iron gate to the street is a convertible, not because she wanted it that way, but because when they all arrived at Florence airport, The Judge, Cook and Hairy insisted on renting a convertible because of the smell of the polyvinylpyrrolidine in the Hot Shot Lawyer's hairspray.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:02 pm   Post subject: Software   

Giustizia wrote:
The phbBB forum software is a crude tool, and I applaud everyone in how they've fashioned solutions to present the various multimedia. But it's kludgy, cobbled together with work-arounds that are difficult to navigate, and only if you're really determined will you click around to drill down.



Actually, our software is legacy software. We are PHPBB2 and are in a queue waiting to be upgraded to PHPBB3 version 3.04. PHPBB3 is a MAJOR advancement on version 2 and will offer us a whole range of new powerful tools and options we didn't have before. However, the upgrade will also cause us to lose certain things (like the portal, the forum icon pics, photos uploaded using the HTML method and the theme for example). Unfortuantely, I can't say when this upgrade will take place, since there have been major complications, but it will have to happen eventually as PHPBB will soon stop support for PHPBB2. As it is, there are no new Mods or upgrades being made for version PHPBB2

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:14 pm   Post subject: Wiki   

Giustizia wrote:
The object here is not to make any more work for anyone. You mention editing too, and that just sparked an idea. Really what we're looking for is a turbo-charged Wikipedia that can only be edited by those who have been vetted and also has a module for multimedia - in other words, a way to add links to audio and video. In addition, this forum could sit within that structure - again, that's not much work to migrate it over. Plus, I'm in no way looking to eliminate/replace this forum.



Actually, I can sort of provide that feature already with the software available. For example, I can create specific on board forums where certain people have the ability to edit posts/threads at will. And, the forum allows for things like hyperlinks, attached or embedded media. If however, what you also mean is a sort of wiki for 'software' where multiple people can modify and edit as a group a particular piece of software online in real time (such as a powerpoint), I can't provide that. However, a workaround could be for individuals to download a piece of software, edit it with their own resident software and then load it up again for peer review and further downloading and editing if needed.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES


Last edited by Michael on Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:16 pm   Post subject:    

Kermit wrote:

Quote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
*I realize that in your set-up Judge Heavey remains back in the state of Washington, I have decided to bring him along. Maybe I should add a little BMW convertible sitting in the driveway, with Anne Bremner sitting inside drumming her French manicured nails on the dashboard and looking at herself in the overhead mirror on the passenger side.


That's fine Skep. In fact, The Judge IS there. I forgot to tell you that the Daisyhill Detective Academy uses the "Buddy" mentoring system. For people like Captain Cook and Hairy to move up the system, they get in situ over-the-shoulder support. (Paul would have been there too if he didn't have to stay behind for the catch-up acoustics exam).

The Hot Shot Lawyer's BMW at the iron gate to the street is a convertible, not because she wanted it that way, but because when they all arrived at Florence airport, The Judge, Cook and Hairy insisted on renting a convertible because of the smell of the polyvinylpyrrolidine in the Hot Shot Lawyer's hairspray.


I'm glad you clarified that. And extending the buddy mentoring system, I suppose Charlie has stayed behind to coach Paul so he doesn't blow the exam this time.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:19 pm   Post subject:    

Quote:
Skep wrote:

The issue of laundry and washing machines is far from settled. Sollecito writes that Knox took an empty bag to gather clothes to take home for washing. It isn't clear from his story whether she filled the bag (with dirty clothes) at his place or not. So let's say she went home to get more dirty clothes for the laundromat. Did she complete this task or was she sidetracked by the strange things she discovered at the cottage? Strange, but not strange enough to deter her from taking a shower, blow-drying her hair, or remembering to take a mop and bucket back to clean up the water Sollecito had "spilled" (as per AK) or that had leaked onto the floor because of the missing piece from the pipe (as per RS), flooding half the apartment (as per RS). So what happened to the trip to the laundromat, assuming that Knox never used the brand new washing machine because it was "broken all the time"? Is there a bag of dirty clothes somewhere, waiting to be washed?


It is one thing how these other circumstantial clues are conneceted and another if the washing machine was working or had been working on Nov 2.
Amanda specifically denies that she used it (even that se had ever used it).
Thus it is a question of credibility and if the machine was used then it is a very serious clue for a lie.
So it is important to clarify this and if the prosecution asked all witnesses as Frank says then there is a reason, at some point the story was indeed considered by the police.
So there hed to be an origin of it.
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Offline Jools


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

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Location: Spain

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:22 pm   Post subject: WOFFD II   

Salu2 Kermit,

Istn’t there a part in your next PPT for the moviemaker who wants to be a millionaire by selling truffles he personally picks himself with the help of Bongo his dog. I must admit I would love to see him feature in your WOFD II?

After all he ‘owns the case’ and wherever he blogs according to the FOAK’s is sacrosanct!
:lol:
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:35 pm   Post subject:    

Jools wrote:

Quote:
Isn’t there a part in your next PPT for the moviemaker who wants to be a millionaire by selling truffles he personally picks himself with the help of Bongo his dog. I must admit I would love to see him feature in your WOFD II?

After all he ‘owns the case’ and wherever he blogs according to the FOAK’s is sacrosanct!


I think we need a whole PPT devoted to this character. Suggested title: Who Wants to Be a Millionaire Besides Me?
Cast of characters: all the journalists, reporters and other little people - Meo, John, Peter and the others - with whom Bongo's owner is on a first name basis!
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:48 pm   Post subject:    

Bolint wrote:

Quote:
Skep wrote:

The issue of laundry and washing machines is far from settled. Sollecito writes that Knox took an empty bag to gather clothes to take home for washing. It isn't clear from his story whether she filled the bag (with dirty clothes) at his place or not. So let's say she went home to get more dirty clothes for the laundromat. Did she complete this task or was she sidetracked by the strange things she discovered at the cottage? Strange, but not strange enough to deter her from taking a shower, blow-drying her hair, or remembering to take a mop and bucket back to clean up the water Sollecito had "spilled" (as per AK) or that had leaked onto the floor because of the missing piece from the pipe (as per RS), flooding half the apartment (as per RS). So what happened to the trip to the laundromat, assuming that Knox never used the brand new washing machine because it was "broken all the time"? Is there a bag of dirty clothes somewhere, waiting to be washed?


It is one thing how these other circumstantial clues are conneceted and another if the washing machine was working or had been working on Nov 2.
Amanda specifically denies that she used it (even that she had ever used it).
Thus it is a question of credibility and if the machine was used then it is a very serious clue for a lie.
So it is important to clarify this and if the prosecution asked all witnesses as Frank says then there is a reason, at some point the story was indeed considered by the police.
So there had to be an origin of it.


Yes, the story has an origin and is far from settled. In any case, if Meredith did put in a load of wash before she left and if she did come home at 9 pm, we can state with certainty that (i) the load would have been finished (5 hours is plenty of time) when she arrived home and (ii) the wet clothes were not removed from the machine.

We don't know at this time if there was a dryer in the house or just a rack (maybe the machine was a combo washer-dryer?) or what became of Knox's own project to do a load of wash. We don't know what became of the dirty clothes that she supposedly took from Sollecito's apartment to wash (or where she intended to wash them).

Honestly, the information remains as conflicting as ever. Excuse my confusion, but the notion of a brand new machine that is broken all the time is weird. And if it was broken all the time, then how was the victim able to use it - assuming she did. The source that she put in a load of wash before leaving to have dinner with her friends is Knox.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:55 pm   Post subject: Mental Illness or Mental Spark?   

Skep wrote:
In fact, several of our members have received anonymous emails suggesting that our interest in this case derives from some deep emotional vacuum in our lives. Last week, a couple of paid posters showed up here and there to make the same argument, warning others that even looking in on our work could lead to emotional illness."



That's amongst the funniest of a long list of funny things I've heard yet and even funnier coming from those represented by the likes of Harry Wilkens. Well, they needn't worry, our membership is comprised of a whole range of professionals and scholars, including many phds and professors, journalists, techies, lawyers, medics and as well as many more, even psychotherapists...so should anyone derive any sort of mental illness from visiting our site we have in house professionals to treat them. However, I strongly suspect that visitors will find no mental illness here, but instead find illumination :)

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline Jools


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Location: Spain

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:02 pm   Post subject: Is there a Doctor in the kitchen?   

Wilkens wrote:
"Rather than to comment Peter Popham's article in that newspaper's blog, I want to do it here, and you can it forward to Amanda's lawyers:
Early 2005 I was working as a public writer in a Geneva welfare organisation, writing letters, CVs and making translations of documents of poor and jobless people. That misery was so depressing that I had to take Xanax.
Well, as I learned only a couple of days later from of my colleagues, by coincidence (and I can go into the details, if wished), one evening I had a complete black-out - of my memory - for the time I left the office and a couple of hours later. However, nobody noticed it, and I behaved quite normally, even did some shopping.
My colleagues and everybody could have told me ANYTHING, and I would have had to believe them. They could have talked me into ANY statement. But luckily they didn't. 
But we reconstituted what exactly happened to me in those hours: I had asked them abruptly and surprisingly for the sum of 200 Swiss Francs in order to buy a big dictionary. Instead of this I went into a small supermarket nearby and bought a bottle of Fernet Branca (which I never would have bought normally!). These were facts; and so I reimbursed them immediately the 200 Swiss Francs, but bought that dictionary a few days later...
Consequently, Amanda - also considering all the circonstancs and the interrogatory stress - was talked into a false statement, but very easily understandable, because everybody can imagine hearing screams and holding one's ears...
This is a false, fabricated evidence!!!!!!!!!!!"

Doesn't look to well or makes much sense. Doctor should increase the Xanax dosage.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:14 pm   Post subject:    

Jools offered comic relief from Harry Wilkens:

Quote:
Rather than to comment Peter Popham's article in that newspaper's blog, I want to do it here, and you can it forward to Amanda's lawyers


I'm sure that her lawyers will appreciate this story and immediately understand its relevance to their client. :?
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Offline Corrina


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:20 pm

Posts: 625

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:54 pm   Post subject: Pretty women out walking with Gorillas   

OFF TOPIC

Skep, just got back from the grocery store and the in store music was Joe Jackson!

BTW, check yer PM.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:25 pm   Post subject:    

Corrina wrote:

Quote:
OFF TOPIC

Skep, just got back from the grocery store and the in store music was Joe Jackson!

BTW, check yer PM


Isn't it funny how synchronicity works?

By the way, it didn't happen to be the one where he says "Uptown/Downtown/No one's fussy, I'm a target..."

Because I did just read your PM and check out Frank's blog, where it seems that Goofy is (a) trying to make people believe he hardly ever posts and (b) trying to frighten and/or threaten me, by using my first name and implying that perhaps he saw me at the market the other day.

As for (a): I can understand why he would want to distance himself from a lot of that poorly written and vile stuff he has become infamous for;

As for (b): I have duly noted that Goofy has duly noted that I live in Seattle and occasionally go to the market. Notice he doesn't say which market, or specify whether or not he is talking about the Farmer's market (Pike Place Market, a huge tourist attraction) or the corner supermarket. But he's wrong about one thing: I certainly would recognize him if I saw him. Goofy, for goodness sake, next time come on up and say howdy.

Anyway, Corinna, all I can say is that Goofy is one angry.... person. Occasionally, his anger gets focused on something or someone - like me for example. But most of the time it is free-floating. Maybe he should get Harry Wilkens to give him some of that Xanax.

Also, Goofy doesn't really understand my position or views. I'm just a proxy for all the people out there who, to varying degrees, think that what happened in Perugia requires investigation and clarification. It doesn't seem to matter how many times I say that I have come to no conclusions whatsoever as to the guilt or innocence of the two people currently on trial. I don't see a smoking gun; I don't see a slam dunk case. I think the police did a good job overall but not a perfect job, as is often the case. I believe that the suspects will be exonerated if they are innocent. I don't believe that Mignini is the Evil Madman he has been painted as in what seems to be a desperate attempt to shoot the messenger.

Let's see, what else? I think that if I was not here to take most of Goofy's heat, then someone else would be taking it. Why me? Probably because I am close by, which allows Goofy to entertain fantasies of doing me harm or at least scaring me out of my wits. Occasionally, he likes to state them publicly. Maybe he thinks I'll be intimidated into not saying any of the things I wrote in the preceding paragraphs. Maybe where he comes from, and in the company he keeps, that's how things are done. You throw your weight around and bully people. You use their first name. You imply that you are watching them. It makes me think that Goofy ascribes far more power to PMF and TJMK and other online resources than they actually merit. It also makes me think he is paying PMF and TJMK a backhanded compliment.
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Offline Corrina


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:39 pm   Post subject:    

No, it wasn't that one. I put "pretty women out walking with gorillas" in the subject for a hint. It was the same old Joe Jackson song they always play on the overhead in supermarkets! Okay, so sometimes you'll get a "Stepping Out"...

Somewhere it was recently posted that PMF posters are making threats but I sure have never seen them. So, anywho, maybe that'll learn me not to look at the comments over at PS anymore?

Sorry!
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 9:10 pm   Post subject:    

Corrina wrote:

Quote:
No, it wasn't that one. I put "pretty women out walking with gorillas" in the subject for a hint. It was the same old Joe Jackson song they always play on the overhead in supermarkets! Okay, so sometimes you'll get a "Stepping Out"...

Somewhere it was recently posted that PMF posters are making threats but I sure have never seen them. So, anywho, maybe that'll learn me not to look at the comments over at PS anymore?

Sorry!


Oh, don't be sorry. Thanks to you I went and had a look. I don't know if "thanks" is the right word exactly. I don't know where it was posted that PMF posters are making threats, but they (we) don't make threats on this board. For some reason, there is some effort afoot to paint this as a "hate" board (because we think that, while love is good, it isn't all you need?). As far as I'm concerned, the only result of this effort is to increase the number of visits per day and the number of registered members. Why do I get the feeling that these people are really good at launching initiatives that backfire? They're like the three kings of orient, lighting the rubber cigar that promptly explodes in their faces.
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Offline Professor Snape


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Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:53 pm

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Location: Seattle. WA

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 9:21 pm   Post subject: The Langlock Curse   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Anyway, Corinna, all I can say is that Goofy is one angry.... person. Occasionally, his anger gets focused on something or someone - like me for example. But most of the time it is free-floating. Maybe he should get Harry Wilkens to give him some of that Xanax.


Skeptical Bystander,

Might I suggest one of my favorites for this situation?

The LANGLOCK CURSE: this will glue the subject's tongue to the roof of their mouth so you need not hear any more useless gibberish from such a fool.

And let me know if you need one for the market. :twisted:

Professor Snape

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Offline Kermit


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:30 pm   Post subject: GONE WITH THE WIND   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Cast of characters: all the journalists, reporters and other little people - Meo, John, Peter and the others


Well, I do think that Candace wants to make herself more main-stream, or at least have the appearance of being so.

Now, remember how she said that Meo Ponte's interview with Amanda (written questions through Amanda's lawyers) was "bogus" and "fake"?

She wouldn't back down (as usual) on that one, in spite of several attempts by posters who wanted to understand what "fake" meant for her.

In fact, in her sidebar, for months she continued to call said interview a "fake" (for the Newbies, Meo is a well-known and respected journalist in Italy).

I seem to recall that Chris Mellas didn't like the interview (maybe I'm wrong), and Candace picked up the cue.

Well, she discretely removed that insulting (and potentially libelous) reference and link last Feb. 9 from her reader blog sidebar, just before her trip to Italy. I assume that if she wanted to interact / mingle / network with professional journalists who are following the case, she probably realised (or maybe someone advised her) that calling a respected journalist's work "fake" would not raise her own standing or respect much amongst other journalists.

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Offline Jools


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Location: Spain

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:56 pm   Post subject: PM investigating braking   

From CU:

"The intruders they also spread keys on the floor".

PM Giluliano Mignini wants to clarify everything about the (.?.) intrusion.

Workers of the Municipality, under the attentive eyes of the police (Homicide Section) have proceeded to repair the damage caused to the window by the incursion of the unknown to the house at Via della Pergola where the crime was consumed (the murder of Meredith Kercher).

The intrusion was discovered in recent days when, on the order of the court of assise, Laura Mezzetti, a flatmate, had been accompanied by judicial police in the house to take their property (and those of friend, flatmate and colleague, Filomena Romanelli), remained sequestered in the "house of horrors." At the operation return was also lawyer Giuliano Bellucci (study Luciano Ghirga, defender Amanda Knox). The police - just entered the home - and discovered the intrusion therefore was not possible to return the goods to the two solicitors. Investigators found broken glass with a vase of flowers (left in the kitchen) knives around in a nice position spread more areas of the apartment (one resting on the floor above an envelope with the address line ( "www.poliziadistato.it") , candles levied in the same house and used to light and, also, even this is new, keys that were next to the door were spread in various parts of the house.

In addition, a blanket that was in Knox’s room was moved and a case of knives open in Mezzetti’s room.

In the information provided by the police they do not talk about the paper that was found by police. Seems that there even if it is a "neutral" clue in other words it will be difficult to prove the origin. But if there was a name, any, could be a further episode of staging.

Tomorrow and the day after double hearing in the court of assise: The investigators parade.

http://www.corrieredellumbria.it/news.asp?id=36
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Offline Giustizia


Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:13 pm

Posts: 113

Location: New York City

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:57 pm   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
So what happened to the trip to the laundromat, assuming that Knox never used the brand new washing machine because it was "broken all the time"?


On her MySpace page, in a post dated Monday, October 15, 2007, AK writes: "My house is awesome, we just got a washing machine the other day, though it was broken. Luckily, Laura started dating a hadnyman [sic] so he came over and fixed it for us."

BUt AK also claimed that the washer never worked. In an interview with "Frank Sfarzo" here were AK's answer w/regard to the washing machine:
FS: "Did you use the washing machine on November 2?"
AK: "I've never used the washing machine. It was always broken so I preferred going to the laundromat where there was the dryer too. I don't know what that stuff was, probably still the stuff Meredith had put in the day before." (posted on Perugia Shock on December 2, 2008: Superwitness and Forgetful)

So it wasn't broken on November 1/2, since the handyman fixed it prior to October 15. And Amanda lied in Sfarzo's interview. Or it broke again in the intervening two weeks from October 15 to November 2. Who knows at this point what the truth is? My guess is that it worked, otherwise Amanda wouldn't have said as much two weeks prior to the crime, when she would have no reason to randomly claim that it was fixed. On the other hand...she'd certainly have a motive to lie after the crime regarding whether it worked or not, given that she was now a suspect in the crime.

Maybe during the trial we should ask the other two women in the apartment if the washer worked. Maybe we should ask Mr. Frank "Maytag Man" Sfarzo.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:53 pm   Post subject: Demonise the Enemy   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Corrina wrote:

Quote:
No, it wasn't that one. I put "pretty women out walking with gorillas" in the subject for a hint. It was the same old Joe Jackson song they always play on the overhead in supermarkets! Okay, so sometimes you'll get a "Stepping Out"...

Somewhere it was recently posted that PMF posters are making threats but I sure have never seen them. So, anywho, maybe that'll learn me not to look at the comments over at PS anymore?

Sorry!


Oh, don't be sorry. Thanks to you I went and had a look. I don't know if "thanks" is the right word exactly. I don't know where it was posted that PMF posters are making threats, but they (we) don't make threats on this board. For some reason, there is some effort afoot to paint this as a "hate" board (because we think that, while love is good, it isn't all you need?). As far as I'm concerned, the only result of this effort is to increase the number of visits per day and the number of registered members. Why do I get the feeling that these people are really good at launching initiatives that backfire? They're like the three kings of orient, lighting the rubber cigar that promptly explodes in their faces.



Well, it's all part of the FOA's tactic of demonising all those they see as their enemies. To demonise them, you have to portray them as evil...and how can they be evil if they aren't full of hatred, making threats etc, etc? They have to make us appear evil so they can maintain the position they've been trying to take from the beginning, take even from Meredith, and that's as the poor persecuted victims. It's all very simplistic, unsophisticated and tasteless, not to mention, getting very very old.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:03 am   Post subject: The washing Machine   

The washing machine is an IGNIS.

IGNIS is part of Whirlpool.

Click on the link below, open the file and you can zoom right in.

Is that condensation I can see inside the glass? I can also see a pair of jeans amongst the other things.

http://docs.google.com/File?id=dfpc46js_111g6g8vzs3_b

Frank makes a couple of assumptions at Perugia Shock:

The reason for which this website has never considered the perfect element of the washing machine is very simple, because I doubted of it as soon as it came out and I've been looking for confirmations. A very reliable and very inside source, at that time --pressed about that-- finally admitted that it wasn't spinning, it wasn't warm, just the stuff inside was wet. I relied on that admission and I left this and other legends to those specialized in mythology and false information about the case. Being in good company, though, since no judge has inserted this element in their review (while the shooters' blogs elected the washing machine even to being an icon of Amanda's guiltiness). Only recently, with the rumor of the washing machine resurrected (certainly not from my side), I made readers happy and I sent also that question to Amanda (she confirmed she never used it).

And so I was kind of surprised when the witnesses of November 2 were heard, at the trial, and the prosecutor would ask the all of them if the washing machine was working or warm. The prosecutor didn't forget anyone, he asked the postal police, Romanelli, Altieri, Zaroli, Grande... But there was nothing to do, under oath none of them could remember the washing machine spinning or hot. The guests didn't even know of its existence and Filomena had other to think about when she got to the house.
Romanelli referred to having been brought by the police, together with Laura Mezzetti, 5 days later into the house. In the bathroom there was a big knife and the washing machine still full. The two women explained that the knife was for breaking the salt they were using for the bath and the load in the washing machine wasn't their stuff, for the simple reason that they didn't put it there. Later, indeed, the load will be taken to the police station where it will be shown to them. They will recognize almost everything as Meredith's. The little stuff remaining we can imagine that was Meredith's too, just they wouldn't know....

Anyways, now only the prosecutors' faithful soldiers remain as witnesses of that morning, since they are the ones who arrived third to the house. Just, if at next hearings they should remember that the washing machine was running or warm I'll know what conclusions to take.


I thought one of the girls thought the washing machine was warm???

Anyways, that's not my point.

1) Why the condensation if the wash was left from the day before?

2) What if some of that clothing was worn by Meredith when she last saw her friends? Frank seems to THINK it wasn't. How would he know?

3) Frank says we can "imagine" the unidentified clothing was also Meredith's. How so?? Why might it not maybe belong to Amanda??

4) The police asked Raffaele what Amanda was wearing when she left in the morning. He said he couldn't remember. Did Amanda take some items of her clothing, which may have been bloodied, back for a wash at the cottage.

5) Why should the police witness's automatically be assumed to be lieing when they give their evidence? Maybe one of them touched it and found it warm whilst the other arrivals were too preoccupied with the scene at the cottage to bother to touch the washing machine??

6) Whatever their motives, the prosecutors have a real interest in something contained in that washing machine and Frank can't just sweep it away as irrelevent until that something is explained in court.


Last edited by Brian S. on Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:03 am   Post subject:    

Kermit wrote:

Quote:
Well, she discretely removed that insulting (and potentially libelous) reference and link last Feb. 9 from her reader blog sidebar, just before her trip to Italy. I assume that if she wanted to interact / mingle / network with professional journalists who are following the case, she probably realised (or maybe someone advised her) that calling a respected journalist's work "fake" would not raise her own standing or respect much amongst other journalists.


I noticed a couple of weeks ago that Frank made a reference to "Meo", saying he would be seeing him the following Friday at the next hearing. Maybe the fact that Frank and Meo are on a first-name basis has made Candace rethink a thing or two.

Both Frank and Candace seem to have an overwhelming need to drop the name of every journalist they have ever pressed their business card upon.
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Offline anne


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:05 am   Post subject:    

Hello world,

what does [sic] mean?
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:36 am   Post subject:    

Anne wrote:

Quote:
Hello world,

what does [sic] mean?


Hi anne! It comes from the latin word sic, which means like or as. It is often written in parentheses inside quoted text to indicate that the mistake in the quoted text was in the original. Does that help?
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Offline Kermit


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:36 am   Post subject: Re: The washing Machine   

Brian S. wrote:
4) The police asked Raffaele what Amanda was wearing when she left in the morning. He said he couldn't remember. Did Amanda take some items of her clothing, which may have been bloodied, back for a wash at the cottage.


In the lower part of this Il Giornale page are what I believe to be parts of Raffaele's 5 November 2007 declaration (just before Amanda's 14 hour torture session started :roll: ..... okay okay, Amanda was chatting on the phone with Filomena when this happened).

Il Giornale testimonies - Raffaele, Patrick, Giacomo

Check out the section "La mattina dopo" (The morning after). In the last sentence of that section, Raffaele says: "Ricordo che si era cambiata e indossava una gonna bianca mentre il giorno prima indossava i jeans."
..... "I remember that she had changed and was wearing a white dress, while the day before she had worn jeans"

That has always bothered me, because in principal the carpark video supposedly showed Amanda in a white dress .... (?)
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:49 am   Post subject:    

Brian wrote:

Quote:
5) Why should the police witnesses automatically be assumed to be lying when they give their evidence? Maybe one of them touched it and found it warm whilst the other arrivals were too preoccupied with the scene at the cottage to bother to touch the washing machine??


Well, if Harry Wilkens is any authority on the matter, we can presume that it is because the prosecutor is blackmailing everyone. Wilkens just posted that the English girls were "bought" by Mignini (well, the Italian state) - because he defrayed the cost of travel and accommodation so they could testify. Worse, according to Wilkens he can use his influence to ruin their careers and the girls know it.
Insofar as Frank is concerned, he has said that he takes the side of the little people against power and authority. So if a witness is called by police or happens to work for the police, he or she is necessarily lying. Don't even try to suggest it might be more complex. You will totally mess up Frank's screenplay.


Brian wrote:

Quote:
6) Whatever their motives, the prosecutors have a real interest in something contained in that washing machine and Frank can't just sweep it away as irrelevent until that something is explained in court.


I agree with you on this. It may turn out to be irrelevant but I am waiting to see what happens next. The trouble with Frank is that he is suspicious of authority and power, except for his own, which is absolute. If you are skeptical of what Frank says, or if you say you are waiting for further clarification - for example because published reports have been conflicting - then you are beneath contempt and insulting Frank.

From my own personal experience, I think it is better to wait for confirmation from a reliable source. After all, I have it in writing from Frank Sfarzo (stage name) that he often tells people "bullshits". Thanks for the heads up, Frank!
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Offline anne


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:52 am   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Anne wrote:

Quote:
Hello world,

what does [sic] mean?


Hi anne! It comes from the latin word sic, which means like or as. It is often written in parentheses inside quoted text to indicate that the mistake in the quoted text was in the original. Does that help?


Yes Skep, thanks a lot. Thats why i've asked, cos i saw it here in the texts a lot!
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:55 am   Post subject: Missing witness   

A casual observation.

In one of the few statements they have issued, through their lawyer, Meredith's family said they were only concerned that should Rudy be found guilty at his trial, the trial of AK and RS still went ahead. Then they were present in Perugia for Rudy's trial and the pretrial of the other two.

It's therefore fair to assume that they would be interested in attending this trial also, but they can't until they have given their evidence.

Surely, if all they could contribute was an opinion on the relationship between Amanda and Meredith they would have appeared at the same stage as Meredith's english friends. Just as the girls recounted the meal they had on Meredith's last night and described the relationship between the two, so could Arline have told of Merdith's last phone call and describe the opinion she had gained of that same relationship.

Then they would be free to attend the trial as and when they wished. With this in mind, I find it hard to believe that the prosecution wouldn't have called them early if that was to be the limit of their evidence.

So what it is that causes the Kerchers, particulary Arline, to have to wait until a later stage in the trial before they can say their piece and then attend the trial.

What was in that last phone call which makes it so special????
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:11 am   Post subject:    

Brian wrote:

Quote:
So what it is that causes the Kerchers, particulary Arline, to have to wait until a later stage in the trial before they can say their piece and then attend the trial.

What was in that last phone call which makes it so special????


Whatever it was, let's hope that Frank and Harry keep their mouths shut about witnesses being paid off or stooges for the prosecution and/or the police.

Remember, Arline and Stephanie Kercher came to Perugia in April to attend the hearing on the 19th, and at that time had a private audience with Mignini. I believe it was reported at the time that one of the subjects discussed was bank account data.
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:21 am   Post subject: Re: Missing witness   

Brian S. wrote:
What was in that last phone call which makes it so special????


I've wondered if Meredith mentioned Knox, Sollecito or Guede when she was talking to her mother. Is Arline being called as a prosecution witness or is she just testifying about the devastating effect that Meredith's murder has had on the family? Judge Paolo Micheli claimed that Knox opened the door to Guede. He seems to have excluded the possibility that Knox met Guede at the basketball court and they went to the cottage together. It will be interesting to find out how he came to this conclusion.
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Offline Jumpy


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:46 am   Post subject:    

Hi Brian,
My bets are that Arlene has very interesting testimony! The prosecution seems pretty confident. Any dates on when the Kercher family arrives?
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:12 am   Post subject:    

Jumpy wrote:
Any dates on when the Kercher family arrives?




I've no idea, Jumpy.

All I know is that Maresca said they wouldn't be attending the trial until after they'd given evidence.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:54 am   Post subject: Peter Popham   

It's that Peter Popham character again. So, we have him writing multiple articles supporting the Knox Camp stance and now, right before the resumption of the trial, we have the Independent writing a glowing book review of Preston and Spezi's book, whilst also taking the opportunity to sling more mud at Mignini. And the author of this glowing review? You guessed it, our man Peter Popham: THE INDEPENDENT

Smell a rat anyone?

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES


Last edited by Michael on Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:55 am   Post subject:    

Split over the next two days, 12 witnesses will testify...Forensic officers will be included among those presenting evidence...called will be Monica Napoleone, head of the murder squad and her superior officer Giacinto Profazio, chief of the flying squad in Perugia...

Judge Giancarlo Massei and the jury will also hear from Edgardo Giobbi, head of the forensic squad in Rome which investigated the murder and gathered the DNA and scientific evidence against Knox and Sollecito, 24.

He will describe how DNA from Knox was traced on the handle of a 30cm kitchen knife found at Sollecito's house, while that of Meredith was discovered on the blade.

Evidence will also include mobile telephone records which will piece together the movements of Knox and Sollecito in the hours before and after the murder through "cell or antenna locations"....


Sky News
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Offline stewarthome2000


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Location: Perugia, Italy

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:12 am   Post subject: New York Compost   

Many of you may have seen these before, but I just had the nauseating displeasure of reading them today (basically the same). These appeared in the New York Compost. To Stefanie Cohen… you must be double jointed, else how could you have reached around far enough to pull these out? Unbelievable

NEW YORK POST

NEW YORK POST



MODERATOR EDIT: Michael - Shortened urls
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:27 am   Post subject: Re: Peter Popham   

Michael wrote:
It's that Peter Popham character again. So, we have him writing multiple articles supporting the Knox Camp stance and now, right before the resumption of the trial, we have the Independent writing a glowing book review of Preston and Spezi's book, whilst also taking the opportunity to sling more mud at Mignini. And the author of this glowing review? You guessed it, our man Peter Popham: THE INDEPENDENT

Smell a rat anyone?


Rats United - Only Harry Wilkens is missing from the conspiracy theory HERE

Mario plugs Peter.

Peter plugs Mario.

Gabriella watches with her coven.

:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:05 am   Post subject:    

Brian S wrote:

Quote:
Michael wrote:
It's that Peter Popham character again. So, we have him writing multiple articles supporting the Knox Camp stance and now, right before the resumption of the trial, we have the Independent writing a glowing book review of Preston and Spezi's book, whilst also taking the opportunity to sling more mud at Mignini. And the author of this glowing review? You guessed it, our man Peter Popham: THE INDEPENDENT

Smell a rat anyone?


Rats United - Only Harry Wilkens is missing from the conspiracy theory HERE

Mario plugs Peter.

Peter plugs Mario.

Gabriella watches with her coven.


And Doug Preston looks on, amused. When does the on location filming of Monster of Florence begin?
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Offline Jumpy


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:06 am   Post subject: Re: New York Compost   

stewarthome2000 wrote:
Many of you may have seen these before, but I just had the nauseating displeasure of reading them today (basically the same). These appeared in the New York Compost. To Stefanie Cohen… you must be double jointed, else how could you have reached around far enough to pull these out? Unbelievable

NEW YORK POST

NEW YORK POST



MODERATOR EDIT: Michael - Shortened urls



I predict tomorow another bad day for the defense. Tick tock.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:26 am   Post subject: Popham   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Brian S wrote:

Quote:
Michael wrote:
It's that Peter Popham character again. So, we have him writing multiple articles supporting the Knox Camp stance and now, right before the resumption of the trial, we have the Independent writing a glowing book review of Preston and Spezi's book, whilst also taking the opportunity to sling more mud at Mignini. And the author of this glowing review? You guessed it, our man Peter Popham: THE INDEPENDENT

Smell a rat anyone?


Rats United - Only Harry Wilkens is missing from the conspiracy theory HERE

Mario plugs Peter.

Peter plugs Mario.

Gabriella watches with her coven.


And Doug Preston looks on, amused. When does the on location filming of Monster of Florence begin?



Well, I can't answer that. But, on Popham's book review, just in case anyone didn't notice:


Quote:
Virgin £14.99 (332pp) £13.49 (free p&p) from the Independent Bookshop: 0870 079 889



So, the INDEPENDENT is actually selling the book itself as a vendor at £13.49 a pop (keeerchiiing) whilst also promoting it via various previous articles by Popham and now a book review by the same (who is a reporter, not an arts and entertainment columnist) and uses it to smear Mignini 'again', right on the day the trial reaumes. Meanwhile, all concerned are all acratching each others backs and making a nice wad of cash out of it...very 'independent', no opportunism or conflicts of interest there, or cynical at all!!!

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:43 am   Post subject:    

From Raffaele's second spontaneous statement in this trial:
"Sono stato io a chiamare i Carabinieri prima che arrivasse la polizia postale, sottolineo prima"

("First I emphasize that I had called the Carabinieri before the postal police arrived.")

Let's see what the police shows against it, hopefully today.
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Offline daisysteiner


Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:59 pm

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:49 am   Post subject:    

From one extreme to the other, Knox blubs in court

THE TELEGRAPH




MODERATOR EDIT: Michael - Shortened url
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Offline daisysteiner


Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:59 pm

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:56 am   Post subject:    

Anyone need futher proof that Knox ain't living down here on earth with the rest of us?

SKY NEWS

Scuse the mega link, its on Sky News

Try reading that article and not swear out loud when you get to the cartwheels during interrogation, I kid you not...



MODERATOR EDIT: Michael - Shortened url
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Offline Kermit


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:57 am   Post subject: CARTWHEELS AT THE POLICE STATION ???????????????   

NICKI, please confirm the CARTWHEEL part!!!!!!!

My fast translation of:
http://www.agi.it/perugia/notizie/200902271142-cro-r012126-art.html

MEREDITH: EX-FLYING SQUAD CHIEF - THE PHONES OF THE ACCUSED WERE TURNED OFF TOGETHER

(AGI) - Perugia, 27 Feb. - Between 8 p.m. and 8:30 p.m. on the evening of 1 November 2007, the same evening when Meredith Kercher was killed, the mobile phones of Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox stopped functioning almost simultaneously. This was recalled this morning in court by Domenico Giacinto Profazio, head of the Perugia Flying Squad at the time of the crime, and witness today before the Court of Assizes of Perugia.

The former chief of the Perugia Flying Squad reconstructed in the courtroom all stages of the investigation, from the moments immediately following the discovery of Mez's body, until the next [crimescene] examinations, the inspections, seizures and the arrests of the accused. "From the very beginning, we tried to collect as much information as possible about the victim and about the persons who lived with her and in the floor below," explained Profazio. "We tried to reconstruct her friends and their movements until the time of death" .

Profazio then described to the courtroom the behaviour of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito the times when they were called to the police station. "Every time I invited one of them," said Profazio in court, "shortly afterwards the other arrived." The former head of the Perugia Flying Squad also recalled that on the evening between November 5 and 6 (on the morning of the 6th Knox and Sollecito were sent to prison following their contradictions (I may have that wrong: la mattina del sei e' poi scattato il fermo nei confronti della Knox e di Sollecito))
it was reported that Amanda had done a cartwheel (Nicki, please confirm my disbelieving eyes: Amanda si era messa a fare la ruota) in the entrance hall of the police station. "On one occasion, Amanda was sitting with her legs on top of Raffaele's," Profazio said, "and I told them to avoid doing this." Knox and Sollecito were interviewed by police separately during the night between 5 and 6 November 2007.

"At one point they told me that Raffaele was not longer giving Amanda an alibi," Profazio said before being interrupted by the defence. In his testimony, Profazio also described the arrest of Rudy Hermann Guede (already sentenced to 30 years through an abbreviated trial for the same crime), the inspection in the home of Raffaele Sollecito (at one o'clock in the morning on November 6, and another 10 days later on November 16), [and] the seizure of the knife found by investigators to be the murder weapon. And also the findings on the video camera and the telephone printouts. In particular, the defence team of Raffaele Sollecito focused on the various accesses made by the police in the cottage in Via della Pegola.


Last edited by Kermit on Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:45 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Offline mojo


Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:31 pm

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:11 pm   Post subject:    

Prafazio says it "was reported"....by whom? We know from the roommates and friends that she was putting her feet on Raffaele's legs, surely they would have noticed this?? must come from police personnel, no?

also interesting about Raff no longer giving her and alibi.
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Offline Catnip


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Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:17 pm   Post subject:    

A TV show had some letters from RS's prison mailbag:

Quote:
Meredith Case: Sollecito “fans” convinced of his innocence

Rome, 26 Feb (ADN Kronos) – Missives which display affection and closeness and, above all, demonstrate a belief in his innocence. Receiving them in Perugia prison where he is detained (is) Raffaele Sollecito, the boy accused of having killed Meredith Kercher on the night of 1st and 2nd November 2007. Exclusive pictures of his admirers and friends’ letters were broadcast today by “Mattino Cinque” [Morning Five]. No one in these letters believes in his guilt.

“I absolutely want that you know that I believe in your words, and I’d like to be able to do something, even (if) only to hold and hug you heaps” – writing these affectionate words is Fabiola, Raffaele’s ex-girlfriend, in one of the numerous letters the young man is getting in Perugia prison. They are heart-warming words in a moment in which the young man, after 16 months of detention, is feeling the loneliness.

“You were sweet, good, polite, courteous and sincere [ingenuo=’without malice’]. Now I discover you (to be) a man with an enormously deep soul” – from Claudia; and Mariella, the mother of a friend, Corrado, writes as well: “you children, inseparable and playmates and school friends; life goes on, but we often (have to) endure trying times, but it’s important to face up to them with courage and determination, because definitely no one has forgotten you”. Then there’s Mimma who sends him a great big hug, enchanted by his face, his hair, his sweetness, in anticipation of meeting him in person. While the friends from Erasmus are hoping to have a big party and emphasising “we wanted to make you feel our presence, (that) you’re not alone in the cells”.


[ Libero 26 Feb 2009
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Offline Jools


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Location: Spain

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:26 pm   Post subject: Cartwheels   

Cartwheel!!!! :lol:

By the time the FOA's hear from Frank this would be a yoga position of some sort. And if not, no doubt they will be saying...
' What's wrong with doing cartwheels, we rock climbers do it all the time is the most normal thing to do' blah blah blah

:lol:
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Offline Principessa Etrusca


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Location: London

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:34 pm   Post subject:    

The latest from the courtroom from today's Telegraph:



"The 21-year-old American student, in jeans and a purple cardigan, appeared more sober and downcast than on previous occasions as she was led into court in Perugia, where she and her Italian ex-boyfriend are on trial for murdering the Leeds University student.

As soon as she sat down she bowed her head and appeared to start crying, after greeting her father, Curt Knox, with a nervous smile.

She was comforted by her translator, a uniformed prison guard and one of her lawyers, who patted her gently on the back. Her demeanour was in marked contrast to previous hearings, when she smiled and joked with her lawyers."




THE TELEGRAPH



MODERATOR EDIT: Michael - Shortened url
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:34 pm   Post subject:    

Google translations I'm afraid:

Phones off. The hearing began with the removal of Vice-added Domenico Giacinto Profazio, Team manager at mobile perugina. Profazio reported that the night the murder of English student, the cellular call Raffaele and Amanda Knox, they have shut down almost all between 20 and 20.30. The investigator explained that the phone a couple times pugliese only work at 6 am the following morning but was unable to say when this has happened to the apparatus of the Knox.

Amanda made the wheel. Profazio also describes the behavior of the two defendants in the police during the first interrogation. When call came was convened immediately Knox and vice versa, and date of issue was "one sitting on the knees of the other. I was told that the night between 5 and November 6 of 2007 (the arrest of the two, ndr) Amanda had the wheel, or a split in one of the rooms of the police and burst into tears at the end of questioning ' .

The hook. Profazio reported that two searches were carried out in the house before the police science, December 18 2007, found the hook of the bra of the victim which were found traces of DNA of Raffaele urge. He said responding to questions from defenders of the young pugliese....


Il Messaggero


In particular, the then director of the Perugia flying squad reported that classroom were two entrances to the house of the crime on the part of investigators, before the discovery of the hook of bra of the victim on which the forensic isolated traces of dna Raffaele urge. Profazio also explained that during the various approaches, some objects were moved during the searches. Accessed still occurred with the use of gloves and shoes by the agents.The defense of Raffaele urge has always supported the hypothesis of an accidental contamination of the hook of bra seized in the house and on which e 'was found the DNA of call.

Libero News
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Offline Principessa Etrusca


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:39 pm   Post subject:    

daisysteiner wrote:
From one extreme to the other, Knox blubs in court

THE TELEGRAPH


Sorry for doubling this link, only noticed just now that you had already posted it!



MODERATOR EDIT: Michael - Shortened url in quote
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Offline Giustizia


Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:13 pm

Posts: 113

Location: New York City

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:47 pm   Post subject:    

'Foxy Knoxy cart-wheeled during Meredith questioning'
Meredith: Knox 'Did Cartwheel At Station'
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Offline FinnMacCool


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:47 pm   Post subject:    

This is another cultural misunderstanding.

Seattle police stations are equipped with a special exercise room where witnesses can perform cartwheels, do press-ups or the splits, and so on, while waiting to be seen by the police. The absence of such a room from the police station in Perugia forces more health-conscious witnesses into an energetic public display, which has been wrongly interpreted as "a bit weird" in this instance.

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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:52 pm   Post subject:    

"MEREDITH: EX-FLYING SQUAD CHIEF - THE PHONES OF THE ACCUSED WERE TURNED OFF TOGETHER

(AGI) - Perugia, 27 Feb. - Between 8 p.m. and 8:30 p.m. on the evening of 1 November 2007, the same evening when Meredith Kercher was killed, the mobile phones of Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox stopped functioning almost simultaneously."


Looks like, as I suspected, the police does not have proof of switch-off, either. Only lack of communication.

And what about the SMS Amanada sent to Lumumba at 20:38?
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:53 pm   Post subject:    

Mr Profazio, who now leads the narcotics division in Rome, told the court how he had been on holiday at the time of the murder, but immediately returned to work.

"I was away when I had a phone call from colleagues telling me that there had been a terrible murder. The body of an English girl had been found with her throat cut," he said.

"I immediately headed back to Perugia and got to the scene at the same time as the forensic officers from Rome.

"A window was pointed out to me, which was broken and which was said to have been the point of entry, but I thought it was strange as it would have needed a superhuman effort to climb up to it.

"I noticed that there was a much easier way into the house at the back, via a terrace and a boiler, there was a chair and table on the terrace and it would have been a lot easier to get in this way."

He also told the court how both Knox and Sollecito's mobile phones had been switched off "practically at the same time" between 8.00pm and 8.30pm the night of the murder.

Mr Profazio also told the court that a search of Sollecito's house had discovered a 30cm kitchen knife which was given to forensic experts for examination.

He added: "When the results came back they said that there was DNA from Meredith on the blade, while on the lower part towards the handle there was DNA from Knox."

"That's all I know about the knife - for more details on the DNA you will have to speak to the forensic officers from Rome who examined it.''.....


Sky News
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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:22 pm   Post subject:    

27 Feb 2009 news, part 1

Highlights

As per above posts as well -

Domenico Giacinto Profazio gave evidence


Cell phones
-- Both ceased all activity practically together, between 8pm and 8.30pm.
– RS’s phone started to work again only around/at 6am the following morning
– unable to say when the same thing happened to AK’s phone

Noticeably incongruent behaviour
- Legs on lap
--Amanda did a cartwheel, or the splits, in one of the rooms of the Questura [Police Headquarters] and burst into tears at the end of the questioning

[Note: this counts as inappropriate yoga?]

The clasp
There were two sweeps/searches [perquisizioni] done before the clasp was found

Messaggero




More on the clasp

– There was two accesses/visits [accessi] to the murder house
– During which, various objects were moved during the course of the searches
– Shoe protectors and gloves were used
[AGI


Court dress

Amanda, with loose hair, wore a violet cardigan and a pair of jeans while Raffaele sported a fuchsia [fuxia] cardigan and dark brown trousers.
Libero


Amanda wore a pair of jeans and a violet-coloured cardigan. Raffaele meanwhile, presented himself in court in a pair of dark brown trousers and fuchsia cardigan. Curt Knox, the father of Amanda, was also in court.
AGI

[Note: Raffaele is quite the elegant lad, while Amanda is still the slob; Knox senior's attire is not mentioned at all]

[Note: maglioncino fuxia, literally "fuchsia cardigan", can also double as an inter-language iterary-rebus for "Foxy" :)]


RS is a star in prison because of his fanmail
Libero
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Offline mojo


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:48 pm   Post subject:    

FinnMacCool wrote:
This is another cultural misunderstanding.

Seattle police stations are equipped with a special exercise room where witnesses can perform cartwheels, do press-ups or the splits, and so on, while waiting to be seen by the police. The absence of such a room from the police station in Perugia forces more health-conscious witnesses into an energetic public display, which has been wrongly interpreted as "a bit weird" in this instance.


WITNESSES or STAFF....how many times has amanda been arrested that she would know of this alleged amenity in seattle?
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:53 pm   Post subject: cartwheels   

mojo wrote:
FinnMacCool wrote:
This is another cultural misunderstanding.

Seattle police stations are equipped with a special exercise room where witnesses can perform cartwheels, do press-ups or the splits, and so on, while waiting to be seen by the police. The absence of such a room from the police station in Perugia forces more health-conscious witnesses into an energetic public display, which has been wrongly interpreted as "a bit weird" in this instance.


WITNESSES or STAFF....how many times has amanda been arrested that she would know of this alleged amenity in seattle?



Hi Mojo. I think Finn's just being ironic :)

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Offline mojo


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:53 pm   Post subject:    

Nick Pisa's take on this morning's info

Foxy Knoxy did splits and a cartwheel while being questioned over Meredith murder, police chief tells trial

basically a summary of what we have heard til now.


ETA - thanks michael... :oops:
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Offline Bess


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:58 pm   Post subject:    

From the Guardian

....Profazio spent a large part of the morning defending himself from attempts by the defence counsel to establish that vital forensic evidence in the case was contaminated by investigators. He told the court that, to ensure this did not happen, he had avoided entering the flat Kercher shared with Knox and two other young women because he had just had his hair cut. He did not want stray hairs to join the samples taken by forensic experts.

But he admitted that, whereas all the police officers who carried out an examination of the murder scene on 18 December 2007 had worn overalls, he and others wore only gloves and overshoes during earlier inspections in November. He also conceded that, contrary to forensic guidelines, he had not changed gloves each time he had moved an object at the scene.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/fe ... cher-court
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:00 pm   Post subject:    

Quote:
Brian quoted:
Mr Profazio, who now leads the narcotics division in Rome, told the court how he had been on holiday at the time of the murder, but immediately returned to work.
"I was away when I had a phone call from colleagues telling me that there had been a terrible murder. The body of an English girl had been found with her throat cut," he said.


Thisk, however, sinks Mignini's argument that "at that time even the police did not know that her throat was cut".
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:03 pm   Post subject:    

Catnip wrote:
The clasp
There were two sweeps/searches [perquisizioni] done before the clasp was found


It should be noted by anyone new to this:

The clasp section of Meredith's bra strap was found on the night 2nd/3rd November when forensics first moved Meredith's body. It was located underneath the pillow which was underneath Meredith.

However, owing to what can only be described as a police balls up, it was left at the cottage and not retrieved until December when it was discovered as missing from the forensics exhibits.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:06 pm   Post subject:    

Bess wrote:
From the Guardian

....Profazio spent a large part of the morning defending himself from attempts by the defence counsel to establish that vital forensic evidence in the case was contaminated by investigators. He told the court that, to ensure this did not happen, he had avoided entering the flat Kercher shared with Knox and two other young women because he had just had his hair cut. He did not want stray hairs to join the samples taken by forensic experts.

But he admitted that, whereas all the police officers who carried out an examination of the murder scene on 18 December 2007 had worn overalls, he and others wore only gloves and overshoes during earlier inspections in November. He also conceded that, contrary to forensic guidelines, he had not changed gloves each time he had moved an object at the scene.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/fe ... cher-court



Hi Bess, thanks for the link. This also from the same article:


The Guardian wrote:
Profazio told the court that the decision to question Knox was made four days after the murder because of apparent contradictions in the version of events supplied by her boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito.



Amanda wasn't questioned because of some text Message from Patrick, but because of Raffaele changing his story and placing Amanda going off to see Patrick.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:14 pm   Post subject:    

bolint wrote:
Quote:
Brian quoted:
Mr Profazio, who now leads the narcotics division in Rome, told the court how he had been on holiday at the time of the murder, but immediately returned to work.
"I was away when I had a phone call from colleagues telling me that there had been a terrible murder. The body of an English girl had been found with her throat cut," he said.


Thisk, however, sinks Mignini's argument that "at that time even the police did not know that her throat was cut".



Hi Bolint. I don't think that was quite Mignini's argument. I mean, any officer that looked at Meredith would find it quite obvious there were serious throat injuries and that those 'could' well have been what killed her. But, they hadn't established immediately at that time if it certainly was the actual cause of death and if it was, if the wound had killed her more or less instantly, or if she slowly bled to death from the injury. Amanda stated all sorts of conclusions as fact that hadn't been established at that time.

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Offline Giustizia


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:15 pm   Post subject: Error in Guardian online article   

Definitely an error in this article re the time the victim's body was found - and I hope they fix it so it doesn't propagate.

Knox admitted being in the house when Kercher was murdered, court is told:"Profazio, however, registered a key point for the prosecution – that there had been no activity on the mobile phones of either of the defendants between 8pm and 8.30pm on 1 November and around 6am the next day when Kercher's blood-spattered corpse was found."
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:19 pm   Post subject:    

Quote:
Guardian, John Hooper:
"Knox's statement, in which she described covering her ears to block out Kercher's screams, was ruled inadmissible for her murder trial. But it nevertheless forms part of the evidence in a private prosecution brought against her by Lumumba, which is being heard simultaneously by the same court."


Lumumba pays back. :D
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:21 pm   Post subject:    

Michael wrote:
Amanda wasn't questioned because of some text Message from Patrick, but because of Raffaele changing his story and placing Amanda going off to see Patrick.


This is confirmation of what was thought about the evening of the 5th.

Raffaele was called in for an inteview because his earlier party story didn't fit with his mobile phone record.

Amanda just accompanied him and sat in the waiting room. She even called Filomena at 10:30pm to find out where the girls would be staying.

How was she to know that at around the same time, in a room elsewhere in the building, Raffaele was telling his questioner that Amanda hadn't after all been with him but had gone out at 9:00pm apparently to go see Patrick.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:22 pm   Post subject:    

Michael wrote:
"Amanda stated all sorts of conclusions as fact that hadn't been established at that time."


Yes, but now she can say it was guessing concluded from the throat cut.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:25 pm   Post subject: Raffaele Footprint   

BBC News 24 (on TV) has just reported that some of the information given in court included a footprint "compatable with some of the footwear Raffaele Sollecito had been wearing".

Not only barefoot prints and prints from Guede's shoes then?

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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:28 pm   Post subject:    

"at around the same time, in a room elsewhere in the building, Raffaele was telling his questioner that Amanda hadn't after all been with him but had gone out "

Not only that.
Raffaele was apparently caught lying. Though we do not know the content of his "load of crap" statement made on the first day, but we can assume that it was basically what he said to Kate Mansey the next day, that is, they went to a party.
And he could not maintain this lie anymore.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:33 pm   Post subject:    

bolint wrote:
Quote:
Guardian, John Hooper:
"Knox's statement, in which she described covering her ears to block out Kercher's screams, was ruled inadmissible for her murder trial. But it nevertheless forms part of the evidence in a private prosecution brought against her by Lumumba, which is being heard simultaneously by the same court."


Lumumba pays back. :D



Indeed. I think actually, this has been a good part of the reason why the likes of Frank and the FOA have been so angry with Patrick. Not so much because of the money he may be elligible to from any successfull suit, but because of the evidence his suit makes admissible that wouldn't have been otherwise.

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Offline GreenWyvern


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:41 pm   Post subject:    

Here is Richard Owen's report in the London Times.

It covers much the same ground as other reports but is very well written, as his reports usually are.
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Offline Corrina


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:45 pm   Post subject: Noga   

As a yoga student, I would just like to say that a cartwheel is not a yoga pose. Wheel is, however, anyone familiar with yoga would find that an odd pose to take in a police station. But then, apparently, in Seattle, it is common to strike a pose anywhere at any time and I'm just being hateful.

I would like to know who "reported" this to him, though I imagine it will come up.

OFF TOPIC

Question for Professor Snape. Sir, are you familiar with Rita Skeeter? I ask because my son is reading The Deathly Hallows (we take turns reading out loud, old habits die hard) and she wrote a most interesting piece in the Daily Prophet. Her talk of "open secrets" and general lack of journalistic integrity reminded me so much of someone, yet I can't seem to put a finger on it...
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Offline mojo


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:53 pm   Post subject:    

BBC story at this point is very small but alludes to the 24news info as reported

Kercher suspect 'did cartwheels'

<snip>

Mr Profazio also listed DNA evidence allegedly incriminating the couple.
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Offline Giustizia


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:03 pm   Post subject:    

Another Italian language source: Delitto di Perugia: in aula gli investigatori
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Offline Professor Snape


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:11 pm   Post subject: Re: Cartwheels   

Jools wrote:
Cartwheel!!!! :lol:

By the time the FOA's hear from Frank this would be a yoga position of some sort. And if not, no doubt they will be saying...
' What's wrong with doing cartwheels, we rock climbers do it all the time is the most normal thing to do' blah blah blah

:lol:



Oh, this calls for the old “Trip Jinx” - this one causes the victim of the jinx to trip and fall.

Professor Snape

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Offline Fast Pete


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:12 pm   Post subject: Re: Noga   

Corrina wrote:
Her talk of "open secrets" and general lack of journalistic integrity reminded me so much of someone, yet I can't seem to put a finger on it...


Perhaps it's that committee of 10 that pushes 11 points of view on a readers blog in... name escapes me.
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Offline Greggy


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:19 pm   Post subject:    

Some of the online news sites are reporting that AK was fighting tears and entered the courtroom today in a much more sober dress and attitude. It sounds to me like her Defense Team had a talk with her beforehand about the evidence that will be presented today, and asked for her help in combating it. They may have finally given her an updated reality check about the situation, reminiscent of when Nora in Ibsen's play "A Doll's House" tells Torvald to sit down. In a way, it seems that AK has built her own "Doll's House" about this horrific murder refusing to remember her actions, taking no responsibility, and living in a fantastic reality that she will be found innocent and sent home. During her time in jail, she has probably refined her acquittal fantasy and escape as well as Peyton did in "An Occurrence at Owl Creek". The erosion begins today.

Many of us have talked a lot about the DNA evidence, what they will present and how strong the evidence will be. Today we start to learn how strong the case really is against AK and RS. Hallelujah! No more of their lies about what occurred that night. "The Children's Hour" is over.
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Offline Giustizia


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:28 pm   Post subject:    

Greggy wrote:
"The Children's Hour" is over.

Amen and hallelujah to that. I can understand if a 22-year-old is nervous, confused, distraught - but hey, it's time to buck up, pay attention, and act like an adult. If AK was old enough to live on her own in a foreign country, she /should/ be mature enough to understand the gravity of the crimes she's been accused of. Throughout the entire 16 months that have passed since the murder of MK, she's the only one that just doesn't get it. Emotionally, she's a 5-year-old child. At least with RS, I've never had the feeling that he wasn't taking this seriously.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:31 pm   Post subject: Amanda's Shock!   

Sorry, for the comedic value, I just had to share this from the Cook's smog:


Turtle Dove wrote:
Posted by turtle dove at 2/27/09 6:03 a.m.

"I was told she did splits". Third party hearsay that she did cartwheels...I am just dumbfounded with the language being used by these so called professional witnesses. I would assume that the head of an investigative unit knows the difference between hearsay and evidence? Also telling a women in shock her behaviour is not normal is also completely out of line, sexist, and perhaps even professional misconduct. Do these people not take sensitivity training?



THE COOK'S SMOG


I've heard it all now. The police, by reporting that Amanda was doing cartwheels, the splits and press ups in the police station were being callously insensitive to 'Amanda's shock'. They should be up for professional misconduct!

By the way, reports to a senior officer by police officers under his command does not constitute 'hearsay'. He is not only on the stand representing himself, but also his department and the officers under his command.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:34 pm   Post subject:    

Greggy wrote:

Quote:
Some of the online news sites are reporting that AK was fighting tears and entered the courtroom today in a much more sober dress and attitude. It sounds to me like her Defense Team had a talk with her beforehand about the evidence that will be presented today, and asked for her help in combating it. They may have finally given her an updated reality check about the situation, reminiscent of when Nora in Ibsen's play "A Doll's House" tells Torvald to sit down. In a way, it seems that AK has built her own "Doll's House" about this horrific murder refusing to remember her actions, taking no responsibility, and living in a fantastic reality that she will be found innocent and sent home. During her time in jail, she has probably refined her acquittal fantasy and escape as well as Peyton did in "An Occurrence at Owl Creek". The erosion begins today.

Many of us have talked a lot about the DNA evidence, what they will present and how strong the evidence will be. Today we start to learn how strong the case really is against AK and RS. Hallelujah! No more of their lies about what occurred that night. "The Children's Hour" is over.



You forgot Blanche Dubois in Streetcar Named Desire. :)
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Offline Giustizia


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:45 pm   Post subject:    

Is the trial being taped? Will the testimony be made available online? I'd much prefer to read the primary source first-hand, without the filter of the news media (and without the FOA and Frank Sforza filter), many of which have only a rudimentary knowledge of Italian and/or are only taking a news feed from other media outlets.

The Italian media is reporting lots of other testimony. For instance, the rock that was found in the house (the rock used to break the window, part of the (faked) burglary) was presented as evidence: Meredith: Perugia, in aula il sasso trovato nella casa del delitto.

There was another detail that emerged during today's testimony regarding 20 euro that was withdrawn from Meredith's bank account the night of the murder. According to Francesco Maresca, the lawyer for the Kercher family, the bank system made an error and recorded the withdrawal as having taken place AFTER the crime. Maresca said that it happened BEFORE, and therefore it was judged to be an irrelevant particular of the investigation. The defense objected, and claimed that the police could have acquired more information w/respect to the Bancomat withdrawal.

Meredith: Prelievo 20 euro da Bancomat Mez dopo delitto
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Offline Greggy


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:53 pm   Post subject:    

Yes, Skep

I definitely think Blanche DuBois is an archetype of AK. Perhaps on that terrible night, she got RS so riled up he played Stanley Kowalski. Now afterward, he is as Stella said in the play after their big fight: "as gentle as a lamb". But he certainly wasn't as gentle as a lamb before, or later. I am looking forward to seeing the DNA evidence linking RS to the murder.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:09 pm   Post subject:    

Giustizia wrote:

Quote:
Definitely an error in this article re the time the victim's body was found - and I hope they fix it so it doesn't propagate.

Knox admitted being in the house when Kercher was murdered, court is told:"Profazio, however, registered a key point for the prosecution – that there had been no activity on the mobile phones of either of the defendants between 8pm and 8.30pm on 1 November and around 6am the next day when Kercher's blood-spattered corpse was found."


In fact, this is probably due to extremely bad editing. It is true that it was "the next day" when the victim's body was discovered, and it is true that the activity on the cell phones resumed at around 6 am "the next day." The absence of punctuation makes it seem as if the body was discovered "at 6 am the next day" but I bet that is not what was intended.

It should read like this: "...there had been no activity on the mobile phones of either of the defendants between 8pm and 8.30pm on 1 November and around 6am on 2 Nov, the day Meredith Kercher's blood-spattered corpse was found."
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Offline Fly by Night


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 5:01 pm   Post subject: Keep asking those questions...   

Video segement of Anne Curry on the NBC Today Show Friday February 27th. An interesting overview of the situation in Italy. Anne seems confused, most likely because the family has told her one thing and now she hears of different things coming out in court, like Amanda's written statement actually being allowed to stand in court. Won't Anne be surprised when they finally discuss the DNA on that knife; the knife she was told had been thrown out of court long ago. Keep asking questions, Anne - this is how we get to the truth.
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Offline stewarthome2000


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 5:11 pm   Post subject: todays testimony...   

Summary - One interesting fact is that although they can confirm that A and R's cellphone went off together around 8:30pm..they cannot say with certainty when Amanda's was turned back on...Rafs went on around 6am.

Buongiorno is all over the bra clasp with the contamintion claim, as apparently there are other DNA profiles found in addition to R and A.

A withdrawal of 20 euro from Meredthis account that was registered after the alleged time of death, was viewed as wrong and shown to have been withdrawn by Meredith herself before she was killed is now back in the spotlight...apparently the time of the withdrawal still under question and may be an issue.

Lastly..A was apparently doing cartwheels while waiting to be questioned by police..WTF?

Corriere Feb 27th


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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 5:12 pm   Post subject: The Today Show   

Hi FBN,

I just saw the TODAY SHOW piece. More spin and misstatements. Stephanie Gosk (the reporter from Perugia) said the head of the Flying Squad didn't enter the crime scene until 4 days after Meredith's body was discovered because HIS HAIR WAS DIRTY and he didn't want to contaminate the crime scene!

Also Dan Abrams needs to read up on the case before acting like a "know it all bafoon". He says "the knife was found at the cottage so of course Knox's DNA would be all over it"! WHAT??

It was interesting what the handwrting expert wrote in his book about this case; Knox's handwriting shows she's "effortlessly seductive". I would think her handwriting shows a 6 year old just learning how to print!

The 6 minute clip is worth a look. Now, where's that Dan Abrams' email address...
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Offline stewarthome2000


User avatar


Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:47 am

Posts: 152

Location: Perugia, Italy

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 5:19 pm   Post subject: Re: The Today Show   

Tara wrote:

The 6 minute clip is worth a look. Now, where's that Dan Abrams' email address...



Here is the link: TODAY SHOW VIDEO
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Offline mojo


Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:31 pm

Posts: 225

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 5:24 pm   Post subject:    

from the Guardian

Knox in tears after key interrogation, court is told
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 5:25 pm   Post subject: Source: MacCool, Finn MacCool   

Harry Wilkens on Frank's PS:

Quote:
Thank you very much for that Martial Art link. It is true that this is the explanation. And I think ît is true too that in the USA polices stations have a room where people can make exercices during their waiting time.But never mind: even if Amanda would have been knitting a new scarf for Raff, they would have used it as an evidence against her!!!!


I nominate Harry Wilkens to serve as the official media contact for FOA. Then Dan Abrams and others who are similarly confused can get the clarity they need to inform the American people.
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Offline jodyodyo


User avatar


Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:02 am

Posts: 257

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 5:34 pm   Post subject:    

Harry Wilkens on Frank's PS:

Quote:
Thank you very much for that Martial Art link. It is true that this is the explanation. And I think ît is true too that in the USA polices stations have a room where people can make exercices during their waiting time.But never mind: even if Amanda would have been knitting a new scarf for Raff, they would have used it as an evidence against her!!!!

Tha's true, Harry. I know that in the Bellevue Washington Polices stations they also have a mani/pedi area and espresso bar.
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Offline stewarthome2000


User avatar


Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:47 am

Posts: 152

Location: Perugia, Italy

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 5:41 pm   Post subject: A's reaction and behavior...   



It is almost as if this person knew A. Iposted this link before.. but here are some excerpts.

Symptoms - Acute Stress Disorder
Mark Dombeck, Ph.D.
The person has been exposed to a traumatic event in which both of the following were present: the person experienced, witnessed, or was confronted with an event or events that involved actual or threatened death or serious injury, or a threat to the physical integrity of self or others the person's response involved intense fear, helplessness, or horror.

Either while experiencing or after experiencing the distressing event, the individual has three (or more) of the following dissociative symptoms:
- a subjective sense of numbing, detachment, or absence of emotional responsiveness
- a reduction in awareness of his or her surroundings (e.g., "being in a daze")
- derealization
- depersonalization
- dissociative amnesia (i.e., inability to recall an important aspect of the trauma)
The traumatic event is reexperienced in at least one of the following ways: recurrent images, thoughts, dreams, illusions, flashback episodes, or a sense of reliving the experience; or distress on exposure to reminders of the traumatic event.

I am amazed at the relevance...but again I am no expert.
Acute Stress Disorder
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Offline mistercrunch


Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:43 pm

Posts: 160

Location: Germany

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 5:47 pm   Post subject:    

"Posted by Harry R. Wilkens at 2/27/09 7:14 a.m"

Quote:
As to the cartwheels: I mentioned in Perugia Shock that even if they had seen Amanda knitting a scarf for Raffael, this would be used as an "evidence" against her.Moreover, once I was married with a ballet-dancer. She was from time to time stretching her limbs in such a way that this didn't get unnoticed. Sportspeople are like this.


At least, we NOW know what sportspeople are like. This guy has so much life experience, i am impressed.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 5:50 pm   Post subject:    

WOT, No shirtbox!?



Manuela comfortable at the opening of the deposition of the deputy manager the Perugia flying squad, Marco Chiacchiera. The stone was found under the window, the glass was found broken.

According to the accusations, the stone was placed in the chamber by the defendants in an attempt to detecting and investigating all'intrusione to think of a thief. For the defense, however, the stone was used to sfonfare the window and enter sneak inside the cottage and then kill Meredith Kercher.

During his deposition, the head of the police said six of the survey in November 2007 (the same day as the detention of Amanda Knox and Raffaele urge) in your Student of Giovinazzo, where, among other things, the knife was seized, held by investigators of the murder weapon and on which were isolated from forensic traces of DNA of Amanda Knox and Meredith Kercher.

''The knife was found in the kitchen - Chiacchiera said - and felt that it could be compatible with the wound found on the neck of the victim. I put in an envelope sealed and delivered to 'Crimes against the person' of the Police of Perugia. "


Google translation - AGI
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Offline wvgirl


User avatar


Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:52 am

Posts: 12

Location: Almost Heaven

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 5:59 pm   Post subject:    

Just wanted to say thanks again for all the information. I have been asked to provide info on this case to another board I am on. So the links to the new releases are priceless for me. Brian S. I copied your remark on Frank's washing machine post because I had just posted that same report and I felt it was important to follow it up with your words. I am so sorry for not asking for permission before doing so and if I need to delete, or cease please let me know. I have linked this board and tjmk numerous times. But wanted to make sure those who are just now beginning to follow the case, could get another viewpoint. Again, please feel free to let me know if it is a problem.
LMAO on the Blanche Dubois, Skep
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Offline stewarthome2000


User avatar


Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:47 am

Posts: 152

Location: Perugia, Italy

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:01 pm   Post subject: hahahhaa...   

mistercrunch wrote:
"Posted by Harry R. Wilkens at 2/27/09 7:14 a.m"

Quote:
As to the cartwheels: I mentioned in Perugia Shock that even if they had seen Amanda knitting a scarf for Raffael, this would be used as an "evidence" against her.Moreover, once I was married with a ballet-dancer. She was from time to time stretching her limbs in such a way that this didn't get unnoticed. Sportspeople are like this.


At least, we NOW know what sportspeople are like. This guy has so much life experience, i am impressed.


Can't help but laugh... this kid can do NO wrong. Since when is A sportsperson?
If I was a comedian, that does not mean its OK for me to act like Shecky Green when I am at a funeral, or do one-liners while I am waiting to be questioned by Police about my roommates bloody murder. This guy kills me! I really think that he is in love with A.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:02 pm   Post subject:    

wvgirl wrote:
Just wanted to say thanks again for all the information. I have been asked to provide info on this case to another board I am on. So the links to the new releases are priceless for me. Brian S. I copied your remark on Frank's washing machine post because I had just posted that same report and I felt it was important to follow it up with your words. I am so sorry for not asking for permission before doing so and if I need to delete, or cease please let me know. I have linked this board and tjmk numerous times. But wanted to make sure those who are just now beginning to follow the case, could get another viewpoint. Again, please feel free to let me know if it is a problem.
LMAO on the Blanche Dubois, Skep


No problems. :D
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:08 pm   Post subject:    

WVgirl wrote:

Quote:
Just wanted to say thanks again for all the information. I have been asked to provide info on this case to another board I am on. So the links to the new releases are priceless for me. Brian S. I copied your remark on Frank's washing machine post because I had just posted that same report and I felt it was important to follow it up with your words. I am so sorry for not asking for permission before doing so and if I need to delete, or cease please let me know. I have linked this board and tjmk numerous times. But wanted to make sure those who are just now beginning to follow the case, could get another viewpoint. Again, please feel free to let me know if it is a problem.
LMAO on the Blanche Dubois, Skep


I can't speak for Brian, but my feeling has always been that the board and its content belong to all of us here and can be used by anyone for the purpose of clarifying the increasingly muddy waters. It is an endless task. Thanks for linking to us when you use this material and thanks for taking the time to make sure that newcomers to this case are getting accurate and unbiased information. The thought of some unsuspecting person discovering this case via today's treatment on NBC or Candace "Pants on Fire" Dempsey's reader blog is scary. :shock:
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:18 pm   Post subject:    

Stewarthome2000 wrote:

Quote:
Can't help but laugh... this kid can do NO wrong. Since when is A sportsperson?
If I was a comedian, that does not mean its OK for me to act like Shecky Green when I am at a funeral, or do one-liners while I am waiting to be questioned by Police about my roommates bloody murder. This guy kills me! I really think that he is in love with A.


You need to see the full statement to appreciate the degree of Harry's infatuation:

Quote:
Sporty people have their own ways. While waiting, they are warming up by little exercices. I saw this all the time when I still had to do with ballet dancers. Nothing wrong with this. The media should once and for all denounce this illegal behaviour of the Inquisitors to accuse Amanda for her looks & behaviour. Anything she does is interpreted to her disadvantage...


:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Offline Jools


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:20 pm   Post subject: Yoga exercise   

Posted by tufa:

"Splits, cartwheels, stretching legs"

*Sounds like doing a little yoga and calisthenic exercises to pass the time, and stay healthy.*


I knew it!
Nothing abnormal about this girl, a perfectly reasonable explanation. It was a yoga exercise!
:lol: :lol:
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:21 pm   Post subject:    

Brian wrote:

Quote:
wvgirl wrote:
Just wanted to say thanks again for all the information. I have been asked to provide info on this case to another board I am on. So the links to the new releases are priceless for me. Brian S. I copied your remark on Frank's washing machine post because I had just posted that same report and I felt it was important to follow it up with your words. I am so sorry for not asking for permission before doing so and if I need to delete, or cease please let me know. I have linked this board and tjmk numerous times. But wanted to make sure those who are just now beginning to follow the case, could get another viewpoint. Again, please feel free to let me know if it is a problem.
LMAO on the Blanche Dubois, Skep


No problems.


Button at the Eclectic Chapbook mentions Frank's post on the washing machine and the comments it elicited, noting that both (post+comments) have done nothing but add to the confusion over the washing machine.

As many of us have said here, it will all come out in the wash eventually, but it is probably best to wait until the SPIN CYCLE has come to a complete stop. As things stand, the SPIN CYCLE seems to have started months ago and is humming at top speed. :)
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Offline anne


User avatar


Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:04 pm

Posts: 173

Location: Berlin Kreuzberg

Highscores: 3

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:32 pm   Post subject:    

I do wonder, how often does Knox actually have direct contact with her lawyers and the outside world?
I know she's allowed to phone home for about 10 minutes once a week. I've read somewhere that her cellmates avoid watchin TV whenever something of her case is being reported there. The woman said that she does not want to see that because she doesnt wanna know what Knox did and to keep it away from her (Knox). And that they really take care of her and that one woman is like a mama to her. So she's surrounded by people who keep it away from her, threat her well and from people who are convinced of her innocense.
It seems she is not truly encouraged to think about the seriousness of the accusation towards her, or the possible consequences. This is not really a conducive surrounding for a person who is immature and apparently living in a fantasy world.
Maybe thats the reasons for her strange behaviour when she attends the trial.
Or maybe its pure ignorance, i dont know.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:45 pm   Post subject:    

Jools wrote:

Quote:
Posted by tufa:

"Splits, cartwheels, stretching legs"
*Sounds like doing a little yoga and calisthenic exercises to pass the time, and stay healthy.*

I knew it!
Nothing abnormal about this girl, a perfectly reasonable explanation. It was a yoga exercise!


Thanks for posting the tip on staying healthy, Jools. I have just discovered thanks to Goofy, posting anonymously at Frank's, that I have started to pack on the pounds. It sounds like I need to start getting more exercise and perhaps look into gastric bypass surgery:

Quote:
Anonymous said (one of Goofy's favorite handles)

What a bunch of F'ing halotards.

You tell me that you would accept hearsay testimony as fact? BullSHIT!

Why don't you go hang out with Peggy and Walter over at Luna Park....they both are the local trolls there. You will regognize Walter as he is that big powerful rat of 210 lbs. Margaret is the rat that came in at 345lbs. They always say you look thinner in your photos....

February 27, 2009 10:05 AM


Yes, that's me. The rat who came in from from the cold, weighing 345 lbs. I basically just squash anyone who messes with me. And now everyone knows why I call my hubby "Little Walter."
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Offline jodyodyo


User avatar


Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:02 am

Posts: 257

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:00 pm   Post subject:    

Quote from Frank's bog:

Anonymous said...
I am surprised Raffaele didn't start cleaning his knife while he was waiting at the police station. He's a knife collector. Nothing wrong with this.


Ok which one of you posted this? Made me spill my coffee! :lol:
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Offline Greggy


User avatar


Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:10 pm

Posts: 208

Location: Southern USA

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:13 pm   Post subject:    

Okay, please don't stone me if I defend AK for once.

In the past, I have dated dancers and yoga instructors, and have a dear friend who is both. I have to report that some of these girls do cartwheels, positions, and funky movements all the time. They talk to you, or maybe at you, the whole time they are stretching and contorting. They especially exhibit this behavior when they are stressed out about something. You have to directly mention it to them when they start this behavior in public, because they seem to be oblivious that they are doing it (i.e;. "Hey, what are you doing?!"). The gymnastic behavior of AK at the police station after her house mate's murder was inappropriate, but I have seen other girls, sweet and fairly normal girls, begin the same behavior in restaurants and bars. I guess if the crowd you hang out with includes dancers, athletes, and yoga instructors then this behavior doesn't seem as far out to you.

We know AK must have been stressed by this point. But maybe our alleged murderin' narcissist thought they were filming her and decided to give the Italian cops a show, so they would perhaps go easier on her during the upcoming interrogation. AK using her charms to try to manipulate men - Never!
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Offline DLW


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:41 pm

Posts: 623

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:13 pm   Post subject:    

"Splits, cartwheels, stretching legs"
*Sounds like doing a little yoga and calisthenic exercises to pass the time, and stay healthy.’

Sounds more to me like what a cheerleader may do after their team just scored a touchdown. Or there was some other reason for excessive celebration going on. Like if you just won the lottery, or you finally got a big mess cleaned up. And the high, real or artificial, hasn't worn off yet.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:23 pm   Post subject:    

Jodyodo wrote:

Quote:
Quote from Frank's bog:

Anonymous said...
I am surprised Raffaele didn't start cleaning his knife while he was waiting at the police station. He's a knife collector. Nothing wrong with this.

Ok which one of you posted this? Made me spill my coffee!


Pretty good, huh? I was wondering why he didn't whip it out and start cleaning his teeth with it like they do in the movies.
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Offline Corrina


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:20 pm

Posts: 625

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:29 pm   Post subject:    

Greggy, you just contradicted yourself. Either she does these things and just has no idea she is doing them, or she is doing them deliberately and for the purpose of manipulation.

Being a yoga student, I can tell you I might stretch in my kitchen while talking to Husband or something but if I'm in the middle of a restaurant, I'm not going to do it. Unless, of course, the waiter is really hot and I want to get his attention. Then I might feel the need to stand up and do a forward bend for him, but only to retrieve the fork that I accidentally tossed under the table.
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Offline Bess


Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:41 pm

Posts: 69

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:33 pm   Post subject:    

Greggy says:

"But maybe our alleged murderin' narcissist thought they were filming her and decided to give the Italian cops a show, so they would perhaps go easier on her during the upcoming interrogation."

That's exactly what I was thinking! Does anyone know if at this point there has been a psychological evaluation of AK? If so, I doubt it's been made public or leaked?
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Offline Tara


User avatar


Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

Posts: 1010

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:42 pm   Post subject: Coffee Spilling   

jodyodyo wrote:
Quote from Frank's bog:

Anonymous said...
I am surprised Raffaele didn't start cleaning his knife while he was waiting at the police station. He's a knife collector. Nothing wrong with this.


Ok which one of you posted this? Made me spill my coffee! :lol:


Hi Ho Jodyodyo!

I spilled my coffee as well - and this poster added a couple more knee slappers:

From Frank's:
Quote:
Anonymous said...
I'm wondering why Amanda didn't use her pink rabbit in the police station. It's only natural for a young woman to relieve stress. There is nothing wrong with this.

and...

Anonymous said...
We all make mistakes. Nothing wrong with this.


Frank's is such a joke. :lol:
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Offline Jools


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:48 pm   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:

Thanks for posting the tip on staying healthy, Jools. I have just discovered thanks to Goofy, posting anonymously at Frank's, that I have started to pack on the pounds. It sounds like I need to start getting more exercise and perhaps look into gastric bypass surgery:



Ah, well, who knows what Goofy thinks of Mrs. Mellas shape, hate to think that maybe he will listen to Wilkens and tell her to start doing the “sexy limbering-ups” that he said to shed those extra pounds.
:lol:
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Offline nicki

Forensics Moderator


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:27 am

Posts: 847

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:50 pm   Post subject: Re: CARTWHEELS AT THE POLICE STATION ???????????????   

Kermit wrote:
NICKI, please confirm the CARTWHEEL part!!!!!!!



Hi Kermit,
as crazy as it may seem...YES, translation correct! Talk about seeking attention...
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Offline Tara


User avatar


Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

Posts: 1010

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:50 pm   Post subject: Re: Yoga exercise   

Jools wrote:
Posted by tufa:

"Splits, cartwheels, stretching legs"

*Sounds like doing a little yoga and calisthenic exercises to pass the time, and stay healthy.*


I knew it!
Nothing abnormal about this girl, a perfectly reasonable explanation. It was a yoga exercise!
:lol: :lol:


Poor tufa doesn't get out much it appears. He/she needs to learn that smoking 1 joint is the the same as smoking 20 cigarettes - so how many packs do you think Knox has smoked in her lifetime? And I seem to remember she smoked a few cigarettes as well.

Nope, the "staying healthy" at the police station doesn't fly with me. Sorry tufa! Time to change course. :lol:
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Offline wvgirl


User avatar


Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:52 am

Posts: 12

Location: Almost Heaven

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:54 pm   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
WVgirl wrote:

Quote:
Just wanted to say thanks again for all the information. I have been asked to provide info on this case to another board I am on. So the links to the new releases are priceless for me. Brian S. I copied your remark on Frank's washing machine post because I had just posted that same report and I felt it was important to follow it up with your words. I am so sorry for not asking for permission before doing so and if I need to delete, or cease please let me know. I have linked this board and tjmk numerous times. But wanted to make sure those who are just now beginning to follow the case, could get another viewpoint. Again, please feel free to let me know if it is a problem.
LMAO on the Blanche Dubois, Skep


I can't speak for Brian, but my feeling has always been that the board and its content belong to all of us here and can be used by anyone for the purpose of clarifying the increasingly muddy waters. It is an endless task. Thanks for linking to us when you use this material and thanks for taking the time to make sure that newcomers to this case are getting accurate and unbiased information. The thought of some unsuspecting person discovering this case via today's treatment on NBC or Candace "Pants on Fire" Dempsey's reader blog is scary. :shock:


I haven't listened to any coverage; strictly a music day for me, ie housecleaning and internet -anxiously awaiting our 6 wk granddaughter into our home in the next few days. And I can count on one hand how many times I've read CD, and I have never posted a link to her site :lol: I simply have no patience for bullshit, or the what makes people like her and her followers tick. Waste of energy imo. 8-)
I got carried away on steaming drapes :shock: and am terribly behind in reading. Any thing earth shattering today?
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Offline Jools


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:59 pm   Post subject:    

Greggy wrote:
Okay, please don't stone me if I defend AK for once.

In the past, I have dated dancers and yoga instructors, and have a dear friend who is both. I have to report that some of these girls do cartwheels, positions, and funky movements all the time. They talk to you, or maybe at you, the whole time they are stretching and contorting. They especially exhibit this behavior when they are stressed out about something. You have to directly mention it to them when they start this behavior in public, because they seem to be oblivious that they are doing it (i.e;. "Hey, what are you doing?!"). The gymnastic behavior of AK at the police station after her house mate's murder was inappropriate, but I have seen other girls, sweet and fairly normal girls, begin the same behavior in restaurants and bars. I guess if the crowd you hang out with includes dancers, athletes, and yoga instructors then this behavior doesn't seem as far out to you.

We know AK must have been stressed by this point. But maybe our alleged murderin' narcissist thought they were filming her and decided to give the Italian cops a show, so they would perhaps go easier on her during the upcoming interrogation. AK using her charms to try to manipulate men - Never!


Hi Greggy,

I'm sure you be glad to know that also Wilkens agrees with you. :lol:

Wilkens says:
'Sporty people have their own ways. While waiting, they are warming up by little exercices. I saw this all the time when I still had to do with ballet dancers. Nothing wrong with this.'
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Offline Lancelotti


Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:09 pm

Posts: 378

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:06 pm   Post subject: Re: Raffaele Footprint   

Michael wrote:
BBC News 24 (on TV) has just reported that some of the information given in court included a footprint "compatable with some of the footwear Raffaele Sollecito had been wearing".

Not only barefoot prints and prints from Guede's shoes then?


Why don't we hear more about this footprint then instead of all the cartwheeling, splits and yoga nonsense? Yes, I am sure she is a very strange person, it'll hardy prove anything though, it's just silly. :roll:

Is there anything else on this footprint?
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Offline wvgirl


User avatar


Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:52 am

Posts: 12

Location: Almost Heaven

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:07 pm   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Brian wrote:

Quote:
wvgirl wrote:
Just wanted to say thanks again for all the information. I have been asked to provide info on this case to another board I am on. So the links to the new releases are priceless for me. Brian S. I copied your remark on Frank's washing machine post because I had just posted that same report and I felt it was important to follow it up with your words. I am so sorry for not asking for permission before doing so and if I need to delete, or cease please let me know. I have linked this board and tjmk numerous times. But wanted to make sure those who are just now beginning to follow the case, could get another viewpoint. Again, please feel free to let me know if it is a problem.
LMAO on the Blanche Dubois, Skep


No problems.


Button at the Eclectic Chapbook mentions Frank's post on the washing machine and the comments it elicited, noting that both (post+comments) have done nothing but add to the confusion over the washing machine.

As many of us have said here, it will all come out in the wash eventually, but it is probably best to wait until the SPIN CYCLE has come to a complete stop. As things stand, the SPIN CYCLE seems to have started months ago and is humming at top speed. :)


ar )) :D
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Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:19 pm   Post subject: Re: Raffaele Footprint   

Lancelotti wrote:
Michael wrote:
BBC News 24 (on TV) has just reported that some of the information given in court included a footprint "compatable with some of the footwear Raffaele Sollecito had been wearing".

Not only barefoot prints and prints from Guede's shoes then?


Why don't we hear more about this footprint then instead of all the cartwheeling, splits and yoga nonsense? Yes, I am sure she is a very strange person, it'll hardy prove anything though, it's just silly. :roll:

Is there anything else on this footprint?



Hi Lancelotti. I too have been a little frustrated at the very small amount of information to come out so far today. If the BBC report was correct, I'm hoping we'll read more about that along with other imortant evidence that may have been given, later tonight when the journalkists do their final write ups on the days events. That seems to be how things have worked so far.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline beckie


Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:13 pm

Posts: 14

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:23 pm   Post subject:    

Hi everyone,

I just saw this AGI news report(PS)...the cartwheel is no longer "heresay" Monica Napoleoni is a witness.
Don't know how to link so heres a copy/ paste for the Italian readers:

MEREDITH: SUI SUOI TELEFONI SMS FAMIGLIA PREOCCUPATA
Stampa Invia questo articolo(AGI) - Perugia, 27 feb. - Sui telefoni di Meredith Kercher, rinvenuti dopo l'omicidio, furono trovati alcuni messaggi della famiglia della vittima che, preoccupata del fatto che non riusciva a contattare la ragazza, le chiedeva di richiamare. E' uno dei particolari emersi dalla deposizione della responsabile della sezione omicidi della Questura di Perugia, Monica Napoleoni, davanti alla Corte d'Assise di Perugia, nell'ambito del processo che vede imputati Amanda Knox e Raffaele Sollecito per l'omicidio della giovane studentessa inglese. Il funzionario della questura ha spiegato che, poco dopo il ritrovamento del cadavere di Meredith, la notizia dell'uccisione a Perugia di una giovane studentessa inglese era arrivata anche in Inghilterra, tramite le televisioni e i siti internet. Tanto che, anche i genitori di alcune amiche inglesi di Mez, avevano chiamato preoccupati le loro figlie. Nel racconto del sostituto commissario Napoleoni anche la tragica immagine del cadavere di Mez. "Non era sgozzata, era scannata", ha detto in aula l'agente, "una immagine che non si riusciva neanche a guardare". E, ancora una volta, e' stato l'atteggiamento di Amanda e Raffaele in questura a catturare l'attenzione della polizia. "Mentre gli altri erano sconvolti e piangevano", ha detto la Napoleoni, "loro due sono stati tutto il tempo appiccicati. Si baciavano, si scambiavano effusioni.
Amanda faceva delle smorfie e, in una occasione, l'ho vista mentre faceva la ruota e la spaccata in una sala della questura. Con il passare del tempo le dichiarazioni dei due ragazzi sembravano sempre piu' inverosimili e emergevano contraddizioni".
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Offline Fly by Night


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:24 pm   Post subject: Re: The Today Show   

Tara wrote:
More spin and misstatements. Stephanie Gosk (the reporter from Perugia) said the head of the Flying Squad didn't enter the crime scene until 4 days after Meredith's body was discovered because HIS HAIR WAS DIRTY and he didn't want to contaminate the crime scene!


You have to wonder why NBC has a reporter at the trial who, apparently, doesn't really know anthing about the case. It seems they are going to follow this case only via interviews with the FOA and the Knox family (who are the only source I am aware of for the claim that Amanda was just guessing when asked to "imagine" what what might have happened at the cottage on the night of the murder - geeze, whatever happened to the intense 14 hour straight grilling and bonking on the head - when exactly did "dream therapy" slip into the equation?) AND what happens in the courtroom on a day by day basis. No investigative reporting at all - they are just going to make silly assumptions and draw conclusions based solely upon what is said on any given day. This is a major flaw with news reporting on this case in the USA; Anne Curry seemed truly astonished that the European news outlets seemed to know so much more about the case than NBC does - and if this morning's NBC report is any indication, NBC doesn't know JACK. There is some really poor reporting by NBC going down here, along with no attempt whatsoever to bridge any cultural divide by, I don't know, maybe explaining a bit about the legal process in Italy to viewers?
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Offline indie


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:25 pm   Post subject: Re: Raffaele Footprint   

Michael wrote:
Lancelotti wrote:
Michael wrote:
BBC News 24 (on TV) has just reported that some of the information given in court included a footprint "compatable with some of the footwear Raffaele Sollecito had been wearing".

Not only barefoot prints and prints from Guede's shoes then?


Why don't we hear more about this footprint then instead of all the cartwheeling, splits and yoga nonsense? Yes, I am sure she is a very strange person, it'll hardy prove anything though, it's just silly. :roll:

Is there anything else on this footprint?



Hi Lancelotti. I too have been a little frustrated at the very small amount of information to come out so far today. If the BBC report was correct, I'm hoping we'll read more about that along with other imortant evidence that may have been given, later tonight when the journalkists do their final write ups on the days events. That seems to be how things have worked so far.




This is EXACTLY why I felt a camera in the courtroom would have helped in this case. I feel like we are getting filtered information. I like plain and simple FACTS. Cartwheels are an interesting aspect but we want to know was the knife in an unusual place stored in a SHIRT BOX or NOT?
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:30 pm   Post subject: Napoleone   

Well, somoene has posted the following testimony by Napoleone, head of the murder division of the Perugia Flying Squad (Mobile), unfortunately, they haven't provided a link though:


Quote:
"Ms Napoleone told the court that while at the police station Knox had been 'treated very well' she has claimed that she was beaten, although prosecutor Mignini did not ask her directly if this was true.
Ms Napoleone said: 'She was given water, chamomile tea and breakfast as well, she was given cakes from a vending machine and then taken to the canteen at the police station for something to eat.'
Ms Napoleone also told the court she had found a used tub of Vaseline in Meredith's bedroom during a search of the murder scene.
When asked under cross examination directly if Knox had been hit, Ms Napoleone replied: 'I have already said she was treated well. Firmly but well.
'She was not hit or insulted at any point and as I said she was even taken for breakfast in the morning.'"

February 27, 2009 12:21 PM




"Later Monica Napoleone, head of the Perugia murder squad, also described Knox's unusual behaviour at the police station where she had been taken for questioning.
Ms Napoleone said: 'She had complained that she was feeling tired and at that stage I told her that she could go if she wanted.
'She said she wanted to stay, Sollecito was also at the station at the time and she said she wanted to wait for him.
'A few minutes later I walked past a room at the police station where she was waiting and I saw Amanda doing the splits and a cartwheel. It was around 11am on November 5th.
'She and Sollecito had had a bizarre attitude throughout the whole time - they were laughing, kissing and pulling faces at each other.
Raffaele Sollecito arrives at a court session. He is on trial alongside Knox
'When they were brought in after poor Meredith's body was found the flatmates and the British friends were very upset but Knox and Sollecito seemed to be more interested in each other.
'They were very indifferent to the situation and I found it quite disturbing considering that the body of a young girl had been found in such terrible circumstances.'"



PERUGIA SHOCK

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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:35 pm   Post subject: Daily Mail   

Hi Michael,

That was in the DAILY MAIL
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Offline indie


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:35 pm   Post subject: Re: The Today Show   

Fly by Night wrote:
Tara wrote:
More spin and misstatements. Stephanie Gosk (the reporter from Perugia) said the head of the Flying Squad didn't enter the crime scene until 4 days after Meredith's body was discovered because HIS HAIR WAS DIRTY and he didn't want to contaminate the crime scene!


You have to wonder why NBC has a reporter at the trial who, apparently, doesn't really know anthing about the case. It seems they are going to follow this case only via interviews with the FOA and the Knox family (who are the only source I am aware of for the claim that Amanda was just guessing when asked to "imagine" what what might have happened at the cottage on the night of the murder - geeze, whatever happened to the intense 14 hour straight grilling and bonking on the head - when exactly did "dream therapy" slip into the equation?) AND what happens in the courtroom on a day by day basis. No investigative reporting at all - they are just going to make silly assumptions and draw conclusions based solely upon what is said on any given day. This is a major flaw with news reporting on this case in the USA; Anne Curry seemed truly astonished that the European news outlets seemed to know so much more about the case than NBC does - and if this morning's NBC report is any indication, NBC doesn't know JACK. There is some really poor reporting by NBC going down here, along with no attempt whatsoever to bridge any cultural divide by, I don't know, maybe explaining a bit about the legal process in Italy to viewers?



Yep, the talking heads don't know SQUAT! It is disappointing to say the least. h-((


But Fly by Night we do have a great contingent here trying our best to stay informed and continue an educated discussion about the case. r-((
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Offline wvgirl


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:38 pm   Post subject:    

Corrina wrote:
Greggy, you just contradicted yourself. Either she does these things and just has no idea she is doing them, or she is doing them deliberately and for the purpose of manipulation.

Being a yoga student, I can tell you I might stretch in my kitchen while talking to Husband or something but if I'm in the middle of a restaurant, I'm not going to do it. Unless, of course, the waiter is really hot and I want to get his attention. Then I might feel the need to stand up and do a forward bend for him, but only to retrieve the fork that I accidentally tossed under the table.


I'm with you on that one
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:52 pm   Post subject: Re: Daily Mail   

Tara wrote:
Hi Michael,

That was in the DAILY MAIL



Thanks Tara :) Wow! That's a really creepy photo of Amanda in that article!!! :shock:

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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:54 pm   Post subject:    

Michael wrote:
"Well, somoene has posted the following testimony by Napoleone, head of the murder division of the Perugia Flying Squad (Mobile), unfortunately, they haven't provided a link though: "

Hi Michael,

Here is the link to the article:
http://www.agi.it/ultime-notizie-page/2 ... 3-art.html

AGI) - Perugia, 27 feb. - The phones of Meredith Kercher, found after the murder, were found a few messages of the family of the victim who, concerned that they could not contact the girl, asked her to call. This particular emerged from the deposition of the Perugia police section responsible for homicides, Monica Napoleoni, before the Court of Assizes of Perugia, in the process in which defendants Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito for the murder of the young English student. The police officer explained that, shortly after the discovery of the corpse of Meredith, the news soon arrived in England of the killing in Perugia, of a young English student through television and websites. So much so that even the parents of some friends of British Mez, had called concerned about their daughters. In the account by the Deputy Commissioner Napoleoni the tragic image of the body of Mez. "It was not slain, was bench," said the agent in the courtroom, "an image that you could not even watch." And, once again, and 'was the attitude of Amanda and Raffaele in the police to catch the attention of the police. "While the others were upset and crying," said Napoleoni, " the two have been stuck all the time. They kissed, exchanged effusions. 
 Amanda was doing grimaces, and in one occasion I saw her while she was doing the wheel and the split in a room of the police. Over time the statements of the two youngsters seemed more and more “unlikely and contradictions emerged.”


Last edited by Jools on Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:03 pm   Post subject:    

Michael quoted:
"Ms Napoleone said: 'She was given water, chamomile tea and breakfast as well, she was given cakes from a vending machine and then taken to the canteen at the police station for something to eat.' "

Not exactly 14 hours without food and beaten. :D
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:12 pm   Post subject:    

Candace is trying to sort it out:

"Posted by Candace Dempsey at 2/27/09 1:00 p.m.
Okay, now I'm confused. The police officer who saw Amanda doing the athletic stuff says it was at 11 a.m. on Nov. 5. But I thought she and Raffaele didn't go in until 5 p.m."

:D :D

Not bad after more than one year on the case.
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Offline Corrina


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:16 pm   Post subject:    

bolint wrote:
Michael quoted:
"Ms Napoleone said: 'She was given water, chamomile tea and breakfast as well, she was given cakes from a vending machine and then taken to the canteen at the police station for something to eat.' "

Not exactly 14 hours without food and beaten. :D


But what she wanted was pizza. That is cruel and unusual treatment, that is. :shock:
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:27 pm   Post subject:    

Sorry to bring over here the rubbish from the kitchen, but I have never seen anything more ridiculous than this. Gosh these people are so ignorant!!
I can just imagine the FOA having their weekly meeting at the round table discussing this rubbish :lol: :lol: :lol:

turtle dove wrote:
*CRUCIAL SPECTACTURAL NEW EVIDENCE..."Ms Napoleone said: 'She was given water, chamomile tea and breakfast as well, she was given cakes from a vending machine and then taken to the canteen at the police station for something to eat"

Talk to a pharmacist, CHAMOMILE TEA is a sedative and sleep aid. Why wouldn't they not give her TEA or COFFEE. DID THEY GIVE HER CHAMOMILE TEA TO SEDATE HER? DID SHE WRITE HER INFAMOUS RAMBLING LETTER WHILE SEDATED.

NEW EVIDENCED TODAY WOULD SUGGEST YES!

Chamomile has been used through the centuries to promote relaxation and stress relief. It contains substances that interact with the brain and central nervous system in a fashion similar to anti-anxiety drugs. It is also widely known to control insomnia. It has mildly sedating and muscle-relaxing properties that help insomnia sufferers fall asleep easier.

DEAR FOA TEAM HIRE A PHARMICST QUICK!*
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:34 pm   Post subject:    

One of the characteristic feature of chamomile tea is that consumers instead of saying "I never set foot in the house that night" feel obliged to say "It was Lumumba who killed her while I was sitting in the kitchen".
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:42 pm   Post subject:    

Here are some pictures from today's trial session:

http://tinyurl.com/ccamk8

Ak's oral herpes is back and RS looks more cheerful than previous days.
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:47 pm   Post subject:    

bolint wrote:
One of the characteristic feature of chamomile tea is that consumers instead of saying "I never set foot in the house that night" feel obliged to say "It was Lumumba who killed her while I was sitting in the kitchen".


Yes, you are right :lol: :lol:

I reckon half of the population of Italy and Spain would be soporific 24/7 the amount of chamomile we drink.
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Offline DLW


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:50 pm   Post subject:    

‘Under the magnifying glass meticulous defenders to call another special, to a levy of 20 euros with the cash to Meredith after the crime occurred. Or rather, that the second lawyer Francesco Maresca, the legal family of Meredith Kercher, the transaction was recorded at a time subsequent to murder by the bank, but it occurred before the death of Meredith. It was then made by the Metz. "This is - explained Maresca - just a calculation error by the bank's computer system." In fact, however, is not a calculation error, the camera of the ATM may have 'registered' the face of dell'assassino Meredith and this, for the defense of call, is one of the aspects that have not yet been clarified in the story the murder of English girl‘….Apcom

If the ATM recorded the image of Meredith, then that would certainly put this issue to rest. Whatever the case the court doesn’t sound very excited about it, and this issue must have been resolved sometime before.
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Offline Greggy


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:53 pm   Post subject:    

I think we have to expect many of the mainstream American Press reporters to align with FOA. The goal of most of the American Press is to sell newspapers and gather more viewers for their TV shows or websites. Some of them care a lot more about achieving that goal than the truth. In my opinion, this is why the USA needs to continue funding news sources without those avaricious goals such as PBS News. If you have ever been misquoted by the Press so that your words fit their agenda, you become much more cautious or forego talking with them in the future.

Portraying AK as a murderin' skank ho won't accomplish their goal. No one will feel sorry for her. But to portray her as an attractive innocent American Woman rotting in an Italian jail, then you might attract ignorant viewers who adopt her plight. I still think they are testing the waters for a variant of Missing-White-Woman syndrome. If it doesn't take, they will greatly reduce their coverage of the case.

Meredith Kercher was a real person with integrity and gifts. Obtaining justice for her is what the American Press should focus on. But they won't do that, because she is not an American and she is dead, so no photo opportunities, human interest stories, or potential interviews. It is totally wrong.

Janet Malcolm echoed this theme in her 1990 book, "the Journalist and the Murderer"
“Every journalist who is not too stupid or too full of himself to notice what is going on knows that what he does is morally indefensible. He is a kind of confidence man, preying on people's vanity, ignorance, or loneliness, gaining their trust and betraying them without remorse.”
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Offline Ferret


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:55 pm   Post subject:    

Jools wrote:
Sorry to bring over here the rubbish from the kitchen, but I have never seen anything more ridiculous than this. Gosh these people are so ignorant!!
I can just imagine the FOA having their weekly meeting at the round table discussing this rubbish :lol: :lol: :lol:

turtle dove wrote:
*CRUCIAL SPECTACTURAL NEW EVIDENCE..."Ms Napoleone said: 'She was given water, chamomile tea and breakfast as well, she was given cakes from a vending machine and then taken to the canteen at the police station for something to eat"

Talk to a pharmacist, CHAMOMILE TEA is a sedative and sleep aid. Why wouldn't they not give her TEA or COFFEE. DID THEY GIVE HER CHAMOMILE TEA TO SEDATE HER? DID SHE WRITE HER INFAMOUS RAMBLING LETTER WHILE SEDATED.

NEW EVIDENCED TODAY WOULD SUGGEST YES!

Chamomile has been used through the centuries to promote relaxation and stress relief. It contains substances that interact with the brain and central nervous system in a fashion similar to anti-anxiety drugs. It is also widely known to control insomnia. It has mildly sedating and muscle-relaxing properties that help insomnia sufferers fall asleep easier.

DEAR FOA TEAM HIRE A PHARMICST QUICK!*


Those sneaky Carabinieri probably gave Amanda numerous portions of turkey spaghetti to get her tryptophan level high, so she was complacent and re-create post Thanksgiving stupor any American will testify from the nefarious tryptophan. Combine with a dessert/snack/biscotti with the dreaded hallucinogenic drug: nutmeg. To top all the truth serum she was given, a Cinzano Rosso, made with the notorious wormwood. Chamoille tea was just the beginning.


Back to reality, drugs can be powerful, but they can only do so much to mask a very stressful situation for Amanda and Raffaele, having the police closing in on them as prime suspects. Tea is 95% water anyway, so she would have to be chugging the stuff to get some serious effects.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:58 pm   Post subject:    

Jools reported:

Quote:
Chamomile has been used through the centuries to promote relaxation and stress relief. It contains substances that interact with the brain and central nervous system in a fashion similar to anti-anxiety drugs. It is also widely known to control insomnia. It has mildly sedating and muscle-relaxing properties that help insomnia sufferers fall asleep easier.



This explains the splits but not the cartwheels. :)
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Offline Giustizia


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:00 pm   Post subject:    

Can anyone parse the logic of this statement? Due to my severely limited intelligence, I don't have a clue what Curt Knox meant when he said this before the hearing today:

In the MailOnline: Foxy Knoxy did splits and a cartwheel while being questioned over Meredith murder, police chief tells trial
"Before the hearing started Knox's father, Curt, said: 'The fact that we are going to hear from 12 police and forensic officers leads me to believe that there is weakness in what they have to say."

Huh? I'm shaking my head at the sheer lunacy of that statement.

Hey, Mr. Knox, a woman was found dead in an apartment Perugia last year - stabbed to death and a victim of sexual assault - and she was your daughter's roommate. Now your daughter is on trial for murder and robbery (amongst other crimes). Don't you think that, given the seriousness of the charges, it would require at LEAST 12 police and forensic officers? Frankly, if AK were /my/ daughter, I'd want as many police and forensic officers as possible to testify. The truth will out.

This must be his vacuous reasoning:

1) The more police and forensic officers that testify in a given case, the weaker the evidence
2) 12 police and forensic officers are testifying in AK's case
3) 12 is a really big number
4) Therefore they have a weak case
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:15 pm   Post subject:    

"This explains the splits but not the cartwheels."

I expect dropping Beatles for Procol Harum:

"We skipped a light fandango,
Turned cartwheels 'cross the floor.
I was feeling kind of seasick,
But the crowd called out for more.
The room was humming harder,
As the ceiling flew away.
When we called out for another drink,
The waiter brought a tray.

And so it was that later,
As Raffaele told his tale,
That her face at first just ghostly,
Turned a whiter shade of pale. "
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:21 pm   Post subject:    

Jools wrote:

Quote:
Greggy wrote:
Okay, please don't stone me if I defend AK for once.

In the past, I have dated dancers and yoga instructors, and have a dear friend who is both. I have to report that some of these girls do cartwheels, positions, and funky movements all the time. They talk to you, or maybe at you, the whole time they are stretching and contorting. They especially exhibit this behavior when they are stressed out about something. You have to directly mention it to them when they start this behavior in public, because they seem to be oblivious that they are doing it (i.e;. "Hey, what are you doing?!"). The gymnastic behavior of AK at the police station after her house mate's murder was inappropriate, but I have seen other girls, sweet and fairly normal girls, begin the same behavior in restaurants and bars. I guess if the crowd you hang out with includes dancers, athletes, and yoga instructors then this behavior doesn't seem as far out to you.

We know AK must have been stressed by this point. But maybe our alleged murderin' narcissist thought they were filming her and decided to give the Italian cops a show, so they would perhaps go easier on her during the upcoming interrogation. AK using her charms to try to manipulate men - Never!


Hi Greggy,

I'm sure you be glad to know that also Wilkens agrees with you.

Wilkens says:
'Sporty people have their own ways. While waiting, they are warming up by little exercices. I saw this all the time when I still had to do with ballet dancers. Nothing wrong with this.'


I've been thinking about this issue for the past hour, as I hauled my 345-pound carcass :lol: along the shoreline (i.e., I went for a walk). Here's what I think:

It is a red herring, by which I mean it has become a subject of heated debate in order to distract people from attending to the more substantive information that emerged. For example? For example, that Knox was not subjected to 14 hours of total deprivation - torture really - and denied food, water, potty breaks, etc. In fact, at the time she was doing her cartwheels and splits, she did not even have to be there. She had been told she could leave but decided to stick around.

I have also been around "sporty people," some of whom are professionals. I know a guy who is a major league pitcher. I have been in many different kinds of situations with him off the field. I have only seen him stretch and go into his wind-up on a baseball field or in a gym. I also know a professional trapeze artist (now retired). Similarly, I have seen her in numerous situations. Not once have I seen her limber up or start hanging from the ceiling just for the heck of it. Be that as it may, I have on occasion seen a woman in a bar or at a party - but only in America - go into contortions or start doing obscure dance moves while involved in a conversation. I personally think it's weird, narcissistic and/or a sign of discomfort, but that's just me. However, I have never seen anyone do this at a funeral, say, or in a solemn or serious setting. I think what strikes many observers as inappropriate is not that the splits and cartwheel routine was occurring per se, but that it was occurring at a time (a couple of days after the brutal slaying of Knox's roommate) and in a place (the police station) where more self-controlled behavior is generally the norm. Does it make someone a killer? Of course not. But I can understand why it raised eyebrows at the police station. It is strange behavior under the circumstances. It is a sign of immaturity and lack of self-control.
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Offline stewarthome2000


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:25 pm   Post subject: Re: Raffaele Footprint   

indie wrote:
Michael wrote:
Lancelotti wrote:
Michael wrote:
BBC News 24 (on TV) has just reported that some of the information given in court included a footprint "compatable with some of the footwear Raffaele Sollecito had been wearing".

Not only barefoot prints and prints from Guede's shoes then?


Why don't we hear more about this footprint then instead of all the cartwheeling, splits and yoga nonsense? Yes, I am sure she is a very strange person, it'll hardy prove anything though, it's just silly. :roll:

Is there anything else on this footprint?



Hi Lancelotti. I too have been a little frustrated at the very small amount of information to come out so far today. If the BBC report was correct, I'm hoping we'll read more about that along with other imortant evidence that may have been given, later tonight when the journalkists do their final write ups on the days events. That seems to be how things have worked so far.

This is EXACTLY why I felt a camera in the courtroom would have helped in this case. I feel like we are getting filtered information. I like plain and simple FACTS. Cartwheels are an interesting aspect but we want to know was the knife in an unusual place stored in a SHIRT BOX or NOT?


***

I read three articles regarding todays testimony from Italian newspapers Corriere and La Nazione.
There was a mention of Rafaelle's footprint and the fact that his attorney (buongiorno) stated that he was arrested based ONLY on a bloody footprint and that has proven to be Rudy's. Hence the reason for the arrest was unwarranted. This is the only mention of the footprints in the Italian articles.

In comparison The cartwheel stuff is minor, but not much came out from today that was shocking.
I am sure more articles are coming with more testimony information..but it has not reached most of the Italian papers yet.

La Nazione
see last paragraph

Corriere dell Umbria
Nothing particular

Corriere dell Sera
I summarized this in an earlier post.


The testimony of the knif was it was found in the kitchen and placed in a evidence bag.
.... nothing abut a footprint matching Rafaelle... Vediamo.
Bad online auto translators probably...
They interpet Traffic Jam in English to "Marmellata de Traffico" in Italian....DONT USE THEM!
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:25 pm   Post subject:    

" leads me to believe that there is weakness in what they have to say."

... in stark contrast to the clear and stable (and thanks God inadmissible) accounts of our daughter.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:26 pm   Post subject: Whiter shade of pale   

And I suggest we change "When we called out for another drink/The waiter brought a tray" to "When we called out for another drink/Monica brought us tea". :)
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:36 pm   Post subject:    

Giustizia wrote:

Quote:
"Before the hearing started Knox's father, Curt, said: 'The fact that we are going to hear from 12 police and forensic officers leads me to believe that there is weakness in what they have to say."

Huh? I'm shaking my head at the sheer lunacy of that statement.

Hey, Mr. Knox, a woman was found dead in an apartment Perugia last year - stabbed to death and a victim of sexual assault - and she was your daughter's roommate. Now your daughter is on trial for murder and robbery (amongst other crimes). Don't you think that, given the seriousness of the charges, it would require at LEAST 12 police and forensic officers? Frankly, if AK were /my/ daughter, I'd want as many police and forensic officers as possible to testify. The truth will out.

This must be his vacuous reasoning:

1) The more police and forensic officers that testify in a given case, the weaker the evidence
2) 12 police and forensic officers are testifying in AK's case
3) 12 is a really big number
4) Therefore they have a weak case


I'm sure that he was coached in vacuous reasoning before heading for Perugia by the masters of disaster at FOA and Marriott. You know, the people who brought you stuff like Nice people don't kill/Raffaele and Amanda are nice people/Raffaele and Amanda could not have killed.

I find this statement particularly insane considering that FOA/Marriott and Co. have not stopped questioning the quality of the investigation and the competency and integrity of those involved in it for over a year.

Curt Knox also said on television that Knox's confession was thrown out because it was "coerced," which is not true.

Speaking of sheer lunacy, our local ABC affiliate (KOMO) covered the trial briefly. Their man in Perugia was none other than Peter Popham of the Independent. I was expecting him to plug Preston's book at the end of his little cheerleading routine - which consisted of the splits, a couple of cartwheels and a handstand - but sadly, he did not deliver.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:46 pm   Post subject:    

FBN wrote:

Quote:
Geeze, whatever happened to the intense 14 hour straight grilling and bonking on the head - when exactly did "dream therapy" slip into the equation?


My guess - based on past practice of this group - is that it slipped in after everyone had had a chance to read Preston's book. I have not had that pleasure (I'm waiting for the movie to come out), but I read somewhere yesterday that in Monster of Florence he says this is one of Mignini's signature interrogatory methods. Is it plagiarism to have stolen a page from Preston's book for use in the media without explicit attribution?
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Offline FinnMacCool


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:24 pm   Post subject:    

The cartwheels story is bizarre, all right.

DJ over on Candace's blog was saying: and what she was doing in the police station were not cartwheels. she was doing back bends. yeah, yoga. she does them every twenty minutes or so. she'll do them right in front of you , while you're talking to her. she is a strange child, yes. that doesn't make her capable of murder.

For what it's worth, I reckon he's probably right about the back bends. I'm not convinced anyone could do a bona fide cartwheel in a police station unless they've got really high ceilings.

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Offline stewarthome2000


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:25 pm   Post subject: ha...   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
FBN wrote:

Quote:
Geeze, whatever happened to the intense 14 hour straight grilling and bonking on the head - when exactly did "dream therapy" slip into the equation?


This and so many other FOA "factoids" have become gospel. Say a lie enough and it will become fact.
Two which I have seen more and more frequently in the news, videos, etc are:

1. The confession as the result of police asking A to "make something up...imagine the crime is being committed and you are there, describe what you would see.." WTH?? What kind of Police interrogion is that. I have yet to see where that is verified by police or anyone else representing the police. This is a classic response to dismiss the statement, take a shot at the Italian police, and gain sympathy for AK.

Where has anyone besides AK and FOA, and we know how reliable they are, stated this was indeed the case?
This is gaining particular attention in the US media to cast doubt on the prosecutions case and its working... That's fine if it can be verified.
Me, I think its a bunch of BS....anyone?


2. AK was repeatedly hit on the head by police during a 14-hour interrogatron ordeal when she could not remember.
The only thing verified by repeated witnesses is that AK clenched her fists and hit herself in the head when she was asked questions that she did not want to answer. We all know the 14-hour claim is bogus, and AK and her defense are backing off on the hitting by police claim... so check that up to most likely another AK lie. I thought I saw Curt Knox apologize to the police about something related to this... was I dreaming or having flashbacks?
Anyone?

It is these two items that when heard by interviewers in the States get the most response and attract the most sympathy for AK..poor kid.
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Offline Bess


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:45 pm   Post subject:    

Justice for Meredith.

:( This is very sad:

Quote:

A detective also described for the court the urgent messages they found on the cell phone of the victim, British exchange student Meredith Kercher, left by her family after they heard that an English student had been murdered in Perugia, Italy.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/sto ... 061&page=1
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:54 pm   Post subject:    

Finn wrote:

Quote:
The cartwheels story is bizarre, all right.

DJ over on Candace's blog was saying: and what she was doing in the police station were not cartwheels. she was doing back bends. yeah, yoga. she does them every twenty minutes or so. she'll do them right in front of you , while you're talking to her. she is a strange child, yes. that doesn't make her capable of murder.

For what it's worth, I reckon he's probably right about the back bends. I'm not convinced anyone could do a bona fide cartwheel in a police station unless they've got really high ceilings.


Something tells me that this case will not hinge on whether Knox was doing back bends and splits or cartwheels and splits. :)

DJ may well be right. However, those close to Knox have also solemnly sworn that a vibrator was actually an electric toothbrush. Not that the case hinges on whether it was a vibrator, an electric toothbrush, or - pourquoi pas? - both, depending on which attachment one uses.
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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:12 am   Post subject: avatar   

Skeppie,

Love the new avatar - now...who does that look like????????? Hmmmm ;)
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:19 am   Post subject:    

Just a word about the new avatar. I have always been a fan of Fernando Botero Angulo, a Colombian neo-figurative artist who is best known for his "situational portraiture". He does these larger than life paintings and sculptures that celebrate and exaggerate corpulence in humans and animals.
Here's what Botero says about his predelection for rotund figures and forms: "An artist is attracted to certain kinds of forms without knowing why. You adopt a position intuitively; only later do you attempt to rationalize or even justify it."

I thought of Botero when I read this goofy post today:

Quote:
What a bunch of F'ing halotards.

You tell me that you would accept hearsay testimony as fact? BullSHIT!

Why don't you go hang out with Peggy and Walter over at Luna Park....they both are the local trolls there. You will regognize Walter as he is that big powerful rat of 210 lbs. Margaret is the rat that came in at 345lbs. They always say you look thinner in your photos....

February 27, 2009 10:05 AM


Then I started trying to picture the cartwheels, splits, backbends and other contortions, at which point my mind conjured up this image from Botero.
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Offline Giustizia


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:21 am   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
DJ may well be right. However, those close to Knox have also solemnly sworn that a vibrator was actually an electric toothbrush. Not that the case hinges on whether it was a vibrator, an electric toothbrush, or - pourquoi pas? - both, depending on which attachment one uses.


You are in rare form tonight! Thanks for the laughs, and I cannot stop laughing at your new avatar! Great choice!
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Offline anne


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:35 am   Post subject: Re: Keep asking those questions...   

Fly by Night wrote:
Video segement of Anne Curry on the NBC Today Show Friday February 27th. An interesting overview of the situation in Italy. Anne seems confused, most likely because the family has told her one thing and now she hears of different things coming out in court, like Amanda's written statement actually being allowed to stand in court. Won't Anne be surprised when they finally discuss the DNA on that knife; the knife she was told had been thrown out of court long ago. Keep asking questions, Anne - this is how we get to the truth.


Why is that guy saying they found the knife with her DNA on the handle and Merediths DNA on the blade in HER home?
This ain't true. They found it at RS's home, didnt they?
To me this woman doesn't look confused. This video looks like it is really devensive over Knox, or have i missed something?
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Offline jodyodyo


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:38 am   Post subject:    

bess wrote:
Justice for Meredith.

This is very sad:

Quote:

A detective also described for the court the urgent messages they found on the cell phone of the victim, British exchange student Meredith Kercher, left by her family after they heard that an English student had been murdered in Perugia, Italy.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/sto ... 061&page=1

Bess, I felt my heart sink when I read that too. So awful - indeed every parent's nightmare. :cry:
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:42 am   Post subject: Gives the term "maneater" a whole new dimension   

Giustizia wrote:

Quote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
DJ may well be right. However, those close to Knox have also solemnly sworn that a vibrator was actually an electric toothbrush. Not that the case hinges on whether it was a vibrator, an electric toothbrush, or - pourquoi pas? - both, depending on which attachment one uses.


You are in rare form tonight! Thanks for the laughs, and I cannot stop laughing at your new avatar! Great choice!


In fact, it was hard to choose which Botero to go with. His art is such a joyous and unapologetic celebration of corpulence! As for the toothbrush-vibrator combo, it is such an easy leap. You know, "vagina dentata" and all that. I can see how easy it might be to confuse the two. :)

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Offline anne


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:43 am   Post subject:    

Principessa Etrusca wrote:
The latest from the courtroom from today's Telegraph:



"The 21-year-old American student, in jeans and a purple cardigan, appeared more sober and downcast than on previous occasions as she was led into court in Perugia, where she and her Italian ex-boyfriend are on trial for murdering the Leeds University student.

As soon as she sat down she bowed her head and appeared to start crying, after greeting her father, Curt Knox, with a nervous smile.

She was comforted by her translator, a uniformed prison guard and one of her lawyers, who patted her gently on the back. Her demeanour was in marked contrast to previous hearings, when she smiled and joked with her lawyers."


THE TELEGRAPH



MODERATOR EDIT: Michael - Shortened url


Now really, this confuses me. I saw videos and pictures of her from todays hearing and arriving and to me she didnt look like she's crying. She talked to her lawyers and smiled (less then on other occasions and not as wildly though, but she did). Whats this about now? Why should she start crying at this moment? This is ridiculous.
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Offline Giustizia


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:16 am   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Something tells me that this case will not hinge on whether Knox was doing back bends and splits or cartwheels and splits.


I concur. But I think the acrobatics will hurt Knox in the court of public opinion. Granted, it's just a sideshow in the media circus, but in Google News, when searching on information about the testimony today, I'd say fully 50% of the headlines all refer to the cartwheeling Knox. Especially for those with little or no knowledge of the case, they're going to latch on to the ludicrous images of a young American woman doing cartwheels and splits in a police station, while she's about to be arrested for murder. It makes her look immature, engaging in inappropriate behavior, and foolish.
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:25 am   Post subject:    

I'm not sure the FOA are going to be happy with Peter Popham's latest headline:

"Knox 'did cartwheels' after being told of death"

According to Popham, Knox collapsed when she went with the police to the cottage on 2 November:

Ms Knox collapsed when they got there. "She [Ms Knox] confirmed that no knives were missing," she told the court. "The first time I saw her collapse was at the entrance to the house," she said.

Napoleoni confirms what we already knew that Knox and Sollecito gave conflicting accounts:

She said she was struck by the contradictions in the accounts given by Ms Knox and Mr Sollecito as to how and where they had passed the evening and night on which the murder occurred. "There were so many contradictions in their evidence that it didn't seem real at all," she said.

Candace Dempsey's blog is not the only place where inconvenient comments are deleted:

Deleted messages
[info]henrytstone wrote:
Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 12:46 am (UTC)

Comments had been deleted and only after sending the message below to The Independent, have those messages re-appeared.

This is not the first time comments critical of Mr Popham were deleted.

When searching for articles by Peter Popham regarding this case there are more articles which had the comment section removed and they did not re-appear after some temporary errors, "There could have been temporary errors on the pages when you looked at them, causing the comments not to display."


Dear Sir/Madame,


The journalistic skills displayed by Mr Peter Popham are appalling as far as I am concerned and looking at the comments left for Mr Popham, quite a few readers seem to have come to a similar conclusion?
For some reason the comments regarding Mr Popham's work have disappeared?
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-enter ... 32963.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 32394.html

I would very much appreciate if the Independent could offer some explanation?

Thank you very much in advance.

Kind regards,
Howard Schiattafe
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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:37 am   Post subject: Afternoon of the 27 Feb 2009   

27-Feb-2009, highlights part 2

The Afternoon Editions


Note: The newspapers are not necessarily contextualising the responses in court.
Some of responses seem to be answers to a “And I put it to you, that on the night in question, ….” type of scenario from the lawyers, with some scenarios more wishful or hopeful than others.


(1) Profazio answering questions in court:

– A 20 euro ATM withdrawal after the murder
[ Borsa ]


(2) The rock and Filomena’s window
– the rock was shown in court by the prosecution
– the rock was placed as a diversion – per the prosecution
– the rock was thrown through the window – per the defence


(3) Marco Chiacchiera answering questions in court:

-- the knife was singled out/identified [individuato] in the kitchen, as possibly being compatible with the victim’s neck wounds; we put it in a sealed envelope and sent it to the “Crimes against the Person” section of the Perugia Questura

[ AGI ]


(4) Monica Napoleoni

– various family messages found on Meredith’s phones
– family worried about lack of contact with her
– news about an (Erasmus student) murder quickly went out on TV and the Internet
– so much so, that even parents of Meredith’s friends called their daughters
– on the injuries: she didn’t have her throat cut, she’d been butchered – not an image you could even look at ["Non era sgozzata, era scannata", ha detto in aula l'agente, "una immagine che non si riusciva neanche a guardare"]
-- A&R: they were continuously glued together [appiccicati]. Kissing each other, exchanging sweet nothings [effusioni=heated manifestations of affection”]
-- Amanda was making faces and, on one occasion, I saw while she was turning cartwheels [faceva la ruota] and doing the splits in a Questura room. With the passage of time, the two youngsters’ declarations seemed more and more improbable and contradictions were emerging/becoming apparent ".
[ AGI ]

Note: scannare “to butcher” is what you do to a pig; death in intended and brutal; sgozzare “to slit the throat (of a person)” is slightly less barbaric (if that is possible).


(5) A Recap, including

-- Talk was that the front door did not show immediate signs of forcing, that on a first examination, nothing had been taken, and therefore the investigative focus centred on the young couple
-- When Mez’s English friends were brought in, they were all afraid, except for Raffaele and Amanda, who seemed more secure/confidant, almost indifferent; they stayed close to each other, kissing – per Napoleoni
[ lASCA ]


(6) Hard words from Giulia Bongiorno presenting her case

– we are beginning the proof of contamination
– the bra clasp went on a tour of the room
– the crime scene was not pristine anyway because of the Flying Squad’s perfectly legitimate (and unprotected) entry
– Raffaele was arrested on the basis of a bloody shoeprint that was not his and is being held on the basis of a bra clasp whose trace evidence is beginning to be questionable
[ 24ore ]




(7) Another recap

-- The bra clasp went on a tour of the room – per Bongiorno for Sollecito
– The 20 euro ATM withdrawal time was a bank computer error; the withdrawal was done by Meredith before the murder and therefore was not judged as pertinent to the investigations – per Maresca, for the Kercher family
– AK and RS phones both “off” between 8pm and 8.30pm; not certain when they were turned on again (literally, "lit up again"): RS’s before 6am; AK’s – no certain data - per Profazio
– AK’s cartwheels in the room opposite the entrance of the Questura, as if nothing had happened; one time, AK put her legs on RS’s: “I told them to stop doing that” - per Profazio
[ Corriere ]

[ AGI ] has slightly more detail on the ATM bank error; might be relevant according to Bongiorno [an implication of importance in terms of investigative procedures, perhaps? - Catnip] [ AGI ]



(8) The witness gets a word in

Profazio had emphatically confirmed several times that the first to enter were the authorised investigators (i.e., Forensics) “using all necessary precautions”
[ ASCA ]


(9) Defence attorney

The bra clasp’s journey
– Bongiorno introduces her line of reasoning
– bra clasp was collected 45 days after
– doesn’t prove anything, since the house was open to anybody
– the clasp went on a journey, ending up under a mat, touching who knows what
– objects entered and left the room
– guarantees of non-contamination are required before DNA discussion can start
– if bra clasp was seized on the first day, we would argue against it scientifically; as it is, we will argue against it procedurally
[ AGI ]




(10) Another recap



-- phones stopped working almost simultaneously that night
-- Bongiorno’s contamination strategy described

[ La Stampa ]


(11) Slightly Off Topic

Prisoner fanmail article
[ la Stampa ]
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:51 am   Post subject: Cartwheels   

Giustizia wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Something tells me that this case will not hinge on whether Knox was doing back bends and splits or cartwheels and splits.


I concur. But I think the acrobatics will hurt Knox in the court of public opinion. Granted, it's just a sideshow in the media circus, but in Google News, when searching on information about the testimony today, I'd say fully 50% of the headlines all refer to the cartwheeling Knox. Especially for those with little or no knowledge of the case, they're going to latch on to the ludicrous images of a young American woman doing cartwheels and splits in a police station, while she's about to be arrested for murder. It makes her look immature, engaging in inappropriate behavior, and foolish.



Actually, I've been amusing myself imagining the image of Charlie Wilkes frantically rumaging through his 'true crime injustice' paperback collection, desperately trying to find a past example of railroaded innocents who had also been doing various gymnastics down the police station just before they got coerced into making a false confession. I suppose he didn't manage to find one today then :)

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Offline Giustizia


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:54 am   Post subject: Re: todays testimony...   

stewarthome2000 wrote:
Buongiorno is all over the bra clasp with the contamintion claim, as apparently there are other DNA profiles found in addition to R and A.

One evidentiary point made today (of many) that was overshadowed by the cartwheeling and sidesplitting was that: "A bloodied bra clasp belonging to Perugia murder victim Meredith Kercher had the DNA of suspect Raffaele Sollecito on it."

Bongiorno (KS's lawyer) jumped on an apparent protocol error: Police Error On Meredith Bra Clasp Evidence

Nick Pisa, reporter for Sky News, wrote:
"...However, a bodged handling of the crime scene meant the clasp was not removed until six weeks after the violent death of the Leeds University student.

Under cross examination, Mr Sollecito's lawyer admitted an "error" had been made in not immediately "bagging the evidence" when it was found at Miss Kercher's flat in November 2007.

During a break in the hearings Ms Bongiorno said: "I think you can see we are beginning to show that the scene of the crime was contaminated. For example, that bra clasp did a round of all the rooms and was even under a carpet."

"Before you can start talking about DNA traces on that bra clasp you have to make sure that the evidence in question was properly handled and in this case it was not. That crime scene was not protected certain members of the Flying Squad entered incorrectly dressed, they may have had masks and covers on their shoes but they did not always wear gloves or overalls."

Ms Bongiorno added: "My client was arrested because it was said at the time the bloodied shoe print was his - it was later found to be that of Rudy Guede. Now he is being held because his DNA is said to be on a bra clasp but we have seen that bra clasp was not properly handled as we have begun to demonstrate."


I think Giulia Bongiorno needs to brush up on DNA analysis.

Nicki, a professional in the DNA field in Italy, has a very informative PowerPoint presentation at TJMK that should be required viewing for anyone interested in this case (the defense lawyers might want to study it too): PPT #9: DNA Evidence May Be A Tough Mole To Whack

Nicki discusses contamination of the DNA specimens gathered at the murder scene, including the bra clasp, and concludes that "it was extremely unlikely in the collection phase." She also concludes that it was "very unlikely" that the bra clasp was contaminated or that the DNA was degraded in any way while sitting in sealed crime scene for a few weeks.

FYI - for those interested, it's il gancetto del reggiseno in Italian.
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Offline Giustizia


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 2:05 am   Post subject: Re: Afternoon of the 27 Feb 2009   

Catnip wrote:
27-Feb-2009, highlights part 2

Fantastic recap! Great work and thanks for the summaries. I was almost disappointed that AK didn't say anything today. I guess her lawyers must have said Not one more word out of you, miss, about pink rabbit vibrators. But I'll bet she was just squirming in her seat and could barely control herself from jumping up and doing a few cartwheels and splits, all for the benefit of the jury, judge, and journalists.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 2:48 am   Post subject:    

Giustizia wrote:

Quote:
Catnip wrote:
27-Feb-2009, highlights part 2

Fantastic recap! Great work and thanks for the summaries. I was almost disappointed that AK didn't say anything today. I guess her lawyers must have said Not one more word out of you, miss, about pink rabbit vibrators. But I'll bet she was just squirming in her seat and could barely control herself from jumping up and doing a few cartwheels and splits, all for the benefit of the jury, judge, and journalists.


I second that emotion, Catnip.
Merci, et encore bravo.
My two cats love you, Catnip!

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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 3:39 am   Post subject: I'll NEVER understand   

Charlie Wilkes, keeper of the evidence vault for the FOA wrote this today at the "Italian woman whose pants are on fire's" scratched up table:

Quote:
Posted by Charlie Wilkes at 2/27/09 3:59 p.m.

Il Messagero through Google translator:

*The lovers turned off their phones around 8-8:30. He doesn't say why this would be odd.

*Raffaele turned his phone on at 6 a.m. the next morning. Police DON'T know when Amanda did, so the famous synchronization of cellphones never occurred, according to this account

They don't know because all they really have are the times when the phones either received or made calls. Raffaele didn't turn his phone on at 6 am, rather that was the time at which his phone received a text message from his father (6:02 to be precise).

Amanda didn't use her phone until shortly after noon that day, hence they don't know when she turned it on... or if it had been on the whole time.

Shabby business


If we are to believe CW, he gives confirmation about how Knox happily went about her business when she returned to the cottage Friday, at around 10:30am to stroll through the open front door, take her shower, look at a bloody bath mat, blood drops and streaks, do the bathmat boogie, blowdry her hair, look at poop and not flush it away, blowdry her hair some more, grab the mop and bucket then saunter back to Sollecito's for a leisurely breakfast, mop up Sol's kitchen water spill or pipe breakage mess, and then go for another walk with the mop and bucket; then only DURING the walk urge Urge to go take a look at a couple strange things she saw at her place. AND SHE DID THIS ALL WITHOUT MAKING ONE PHONE CALL!

Wouldn't she call her roommates and ask WTF is up with the house?
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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 3:44 am   Post subject: PS to above   

I realize many, many here have stated this same thing in the same state of disbelief. WHY doesn't anyone over at the FOA think this is NONSENSE? I don't get it.
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Offline DLW


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 4:00 am   Post subject:    

Lots of chatter on one of the other sites about Amanda being hit, punched, slapped , etc. But they don’t say who was doing all the hitting and slapping. But I believe the cops said that it was Amanda herself who was hitting her head during her interrogation. So I guess it doesn’t matter to the FOA who was doing what to whom. Only that it happened. Amanda hasn’t filed a claim, so I imagine it’s all just a moot point anyways. Just helps keep the troops over there fired up.

Note Tara: Also to think that Amanda did all those things in about 1 ½ hrs time. Simply amazing.
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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:14 am   Post subject: Ungoogle   

First batch of ungoogled reports for 27-Feb-2009:




Quote:
MURDER IN PERUGIA
INVESTIGATORS IN COURT
27 FEBRUARY 2009


Rome - Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox’s phones were switched off [spenti] simultaneously [contemporaneamente] on the night of first November 2007 between 8.00pm and 8.30pm, the night on which Meredith Kercher was killed. Revealing this fact in court today is Domenico Giacinto Profazio, chief of the Perugia Flying Squad at the time and today a witness before the Court of Assizes of Perugia. The ex-director of the Perugia Squad stepped through [ha ricostruito] in court each phase of the investigations, from the moments immediately following the discovery of Mez’s body right up to the subsequent conclusions, the crime scenes, the seizures and the arrest of the accused.
“Immediately after we were seeking to collect as much information as possible on the victim and on the people who were living with with her and in the apartment on the level below,” explained Profazio. “We were trying to piece together [ricostruire] her contacts [amicizie] and her movements up to the moment of her death”. Profazio then recounted for the court Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito’s behaviour on the occasions in which they had been interviewed [convocati] at the police station. “Each time that we would interview one of the two,” said Profazio in court, “a little while later, the other one also turned up”. The former Perugia Flying Squad chief also recalled that on the night of 5th and 6th November (the morning of the 6th saw the triggering of the arrest in the [police’s] dealings with Knox and Sollecito), he had been advised that Amanda had taken it upon herself to turn cartwheels in the room opposite the entrance to the station. “On one occasion Amanda had positioned herself with her legs on top of Raffaele’s,” continued Profazio, “and I told them to stop doing that.”
The two accused were present during today’s hearing: Amanda was wearing a pair of jeans and a violet top. Raffaele, meanwhile, presented himself in court in a pair of brown trousers and a fuchsia jumper. Curt Knox, Amanda’s father, was also in court.

[ Giovani ] 27 Feb 2009





Quote:

Meredith case: withdrawal after murder
On the night of the murder, the phones of the accused were silent

ANSA - PERUGIA, 27 FEB – A 20 euro withdrawal had been made an an ATM [bancomat] using Meredith’s credit card after the murder. This emerged today during the deposition of Giacinto Profazio, former director of the Umbrian capital’s Flying Squad, before the Court of Assizes of Perugia. According to Profazio, on the night of 1 November 2007, the one on which Meredith was killed, Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox’s phones ceased all activity practically together, between 8pm and 8.30pm.

27 Feb 17:57

[ BORSA ] 27 Feb 2009





Quote:


Meredith case: Rock found in murder house in court

(AGI) - Perugia, 27 Feb. – The rock found inside Filomena Romaneeli’s bedroom on the day of the discovery of Meredith Kercher’s body, was shown in court today by the public prosecutor, Manuela Comodi, during the start of depositioning by Perugia Flying Squad vice-director Marco Chiacchiera. The rock came to be found under the window whose pane was found shattered.

According to the prosecution version, the rock had been placed in the room by the accused in the attempt to sidetrack the investigations and to make it look like [far pensare=literally, ”to make think”] (there was) a break-in by a thief.

For the defence, on the other hand, the rock had been used (by someone) to break the glass of the window and to sneak [introdursi furtivamente] into the cottage and then to kill Meredith Kercher.

During his deposition, the police director recalled the crime scene of 6 November 2007 (the same day Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito were arrested) at the Giovinazzo student’s house [ i.e., RS’s place], where, amongst other things, the knife was seized, (and) held by the investigating murder police and on which the scientific police have isolated traces of Amanda Knox and Meredith Kercher.

“The knife came to be identified [individuato] in the kitchen,” said Chiacchiera, “ and we thought that it could have been compatible with the wound found [riscontrata] on the victim’s neck. We put in a closed and sealed [chiusa e sigillata] envelope and entrusted it/consigned it to the “Serious crimes against the Person” unit at Police Headquarters in Perugia".

(AGI) Cli/Nic/Pg (Segue)

[ AGI ] 27 Feb 2009



Translator’s note: “smashing a window pane” and “getting inside unawares” sound incongruous when placed together in the same sentence. Perhaps something has been left out during the sub-editing process?








Quote:

Meredith: SMS from worried family on her phones

(AGI) - Perugia, 27 Feb. – Meredith Kercher’s phones, discovered after the muder, contained various messages from the victim’s family who, worried by the fact that they were unable to contact the girl, asked her to call them back. This is one of the facts emerging from the deposition of the one in charge of the murder section of Perugia Police, Monica Napoleoni, before the Court of Assizes of Perugia, during the course of the case seeing Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito accused of the murder of the young English student.

The police official explained that, a little after the discovery of Meredith’s body, news of the killing in Perugia of a young English student spread even to England, transmitted by television and internet sites. So much so, that even the parents of various English friends of Mez, had been worried calling their daughters.

Also in assistant inspector Napoleoni’s account, the tragic image of Mez’s body. “She hadn’t had her throat cut, she’d been butchered,” the agent said in court, “a picture that nobody could bring themselves to look at”. And, once again, Amanda and Raffaele’s closeness at the police station caught the attention of the police. “While the others were distraught and crying,” said Napoleoni, “those two stayed stuck together all the time. They were kissing, exchanging caresses.”

“Amanda was making faces and, one time, I saw her while she was turning cartwheels and doing the splits in a room at headquarters. With the passage of time, the couple’s declarations seemed more and more improbable and contradictions began appearing”.


[ AGI ] 27 Feb 2009






Quote:

27-02-09 MEREDITH: Sixth hearing concludes, resumes tomorrow morning


(ASCA) - Perugia, 27 Feb – Today’s hearing was devoted entirely to the initial phase of investigations after the discovery of English student Meredith Kercher’s body, with the examination [escussione] of former Flying Squad captain Domenico Giacinto Prefazio, of his lieutenant Marco Chiacchiera (who deposed in uniform), of homicide department chief Monica Napoleoni (also in uniform). As ordered by (assizes court) president Giancarlo Massei at a little after 7.35pm, the hearing was suspended to resume tomorrow morning at 9.30am, with the continuing examination of Napoleoni.

Amongst the various statements by the investigators, they were answering the Public Prosecutor even on evidence brought into court (including the stone with which the glass of Mez and Amanda’s house mate Romanelli’s room would have been broken), the Sollecito and Amanda Knox defence interests jumping on these because they were ruled out by the investigators of the burglary.


Chiacchiera maintained that the front door didn’t show show immediate signs of being forced, that nothing had been taken at first inspection, and that therefore the investigative focus swung around to the young couple.

Assistant inspector Napoleoni, in charge of the murder section (and) heard in the afternoon, described how poor Mez came to be found, with her throat cut (such that she couldn’t look – she said) and in addition, that on the phones used by Kercher, text messages from the English student’s family were found – they were worried after being unable to contact her and after having learned via the media in England that an Erasmus student in Perugia had been killed. There was, on the part of the parents of the English girls who had known there was a really serious incident [fatto di sangue], a certain apprehension in their seeking of reassuring news. “At the police station,” said Napoleoni, “when Mez’s English friends were brought in, they were all frightened, except Raffaele and Amanda, who seemed more confident, almost indifferent: they were staying close to each other, kissing”. They had a noticeable comportment, and then they tripped themselves [sono caduti] in contradictions.

Tomorrow (is) the seventh hearing; continuing with the examination of the other investigators, including those of the Scientific Police.


red/mcc/ss

[ 24Ore ]
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Offline Catnip


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Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:34 am   Post subject: Re: I'll NEVER understand   

Tara wrote:

Quote:
Posted by Charlie Wilkes at 2/27/09 3:59 p.m.


Amanda didn't use her phone until shortly after noon that day, hence they don't know when she turned it on... or if it had been on the whole time.




Also, someone apparently called Meredith's Italian phone (the one Filomena gave her) around 9am-ish on 2 Nov 2007
and alerted Signora Lana that autumn morning.

The phone logs haven't been tabled yet, I don't think.

Signore Carlo is quite brave in coming to conclusions so soon, and thereby risks that he might potentially have to do a weather-vane impression(s) as the case progresses and the context becomes clearer.

More to come (on all sides), I expect.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 7:18 am   Post subject:    

Additional details here from Elio Clero Bertoldi in Corriere dell'Umbria

Includes exact times for the phones and, yes, Amanda's last use was given as 20:35 on the night of the crime.

This is one for Nicki or Catnip. Google just doesn't do it justice.


Googlemangled section:

The hearing was suspended at 19.25 while being interrogated Monica Napoleoni) of the seven planned. Today we continue with the texts that were not heard yesterday and that Lorraine Zugarini, Rita Ficarra, Mauro Bigini (Edgardo Giobbi, of Rome, did not appear).Those for now slipped. Profazio, 38 years and Talk, 42 years, have rebuilt the initiation of investigations. Among the curiosities that emerged during the first investigations was reported that a Maghreb in a laundry area had washed the clothes and shoes ( "But it had no relation to our investigation" - has assured Chat), the fact that Michael Battistelli of the inspector Polpost was asked to photograph the soles of his shoes ( "To have the absolute certainty that it was not entered into the chamber Mez being the only one who had a pair of sports shoes ..."); the eye police (Armando Finzi Chat and the same) who decided to seize the knife, including many who were in the house call, which then took over the scientific DNA of Meredith and Amanda, and the curiosity that consumed Talk, on the day of discovery of three dead mobile phone batteries to keep the relationship with the various hierarchies and other obligations, that a jar of vaseline, already partially consumed, was found on the desktop chamber Mez, 36 police officers who signed the morning of November 6, the notification of the detention of Amanda Knox, and that the wound in the neck Amanda was really horrible and will give annoyance to investigators who have seen numerous crimes (Era bench "- said Napoleoni). The three investigators listened yesterday held their positions, explaining how and why the suspects had been addressed, slowly, towards the two girlfriend....


Last edited by Brian S. on Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:19 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 7:51 am   Post subject:    

Corriere dell'Umbria:
"Sul traffico telefonico di Raffaele e Amanda i tre poliziotti sono stati concordi: il telefono di Sollecito rimase inattivo dalle 20,42 alle 6.02, quello della Knox dalle 20,35 alle 12.03."

So the theory of simultanous switch-off can be laid to rest as completely unproven.
(No big surprise here)

The only thing that remaind to be interesting (and it is maddening that they don't talk about it) is: When did Raffaele's father sent the SMS that was received by Raffaele at 6:02am.

If he sent it hours before the reception then it proves that Raffaele's phone was not reachable at the time of sending. (Though it is still far from proving that he switched it off, let alone simultaneously with Amanda).
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 7:53 am   Post subject:    

A day nervosa, strong tensions between the police officers called to testify and the defense. With the first brought to clarify the evidence that convinced them they had investigated at the two (ex) boyfriend and the whole defense to emphasize the alleged errors of the investigators, to emphasize the possibility of contamination, to highlight the weaknesses of accusatorial. But the three texts rose sull'emiciclo (Giacinto Profazio Domenico, Marco Chat, Monica Napoleoni) have reconstructed the start of the investigation and how, gradually discarding other possible assumptions, we were then directed on the two ex-girlfriend that were contradicted and had told many lies, in addition to the items taken by police science. Among the sights was also the fact that Amanda Knox, pending questioning by Raffaele urge, had the wheel and the split in the waiting room of the mobile team. On pages 4 and 5

Google translation Of Corriere Dell'Umbria

Hopefully, pages 4 and 5 will be posted to the net at their site later in the day, but this summary does give a feel for the context of the evidence given yesterday.

Three of the senior officers have given an overview of the discovery of the crime, summarised the events of the following 3 or 4 days, explained their reasons for ruling out "robbery" and given their reasons for the increasing suspicions about Knox and Sollecito.

I expect more detail about these events will be filled in today by those investigators who were working on the ground.

Expect details and times of all phone calls, evidence from the people who first spoke to AK and RS and from those who intitially examined the crime scene at the cottage.





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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:14 am   Post subject: 27 Feb 2009 reports   

Another report:


Quote:

Perugia Murder
Sollecito defence: crime scene “contaminated”
Friday, 27 February 2009

New hearing in the trial of Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox for the Perugia murder, during which the young Meredith Kercher was killed.

The hearing

Before the judges of the Court of Assizes of Perugia, it was the turn [volta] of the witnesses let out by the police brass (and) charged with the investigations into the murder of Meredith Kercher, occurring on the night of 1 November 2007, and for which Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox have been charged. The pair of them in court, as usual, to assist at the depositioning of acting assistant vice-quaestor Giacinto Profazio, who at the time of the facts in question led the Perugian mobile squad. Among the notable points of his testimony were some regarding the accuseds’ phones: according to what was affirmed, in fact, by the investigator, that both the unit ascribed to Raffaele and that to Amanda ceased all activity almost simultaneously, between 8pm and 8.30pm of the night in which Meredith was killed. Sollecito’s phone became active again [riacceso] at 6 in the morning following, while it was not possible to say when the same happened to Knox’s phone.


The contaminated scene

In the course of his deposition, Profazio mentioned that there were two searches undertaken in Meredith’s apartment before the scientific police found the girl’s bra clasp, on which were later identified traces of Sollecito DNA, and which is one of the pieces of evidence for the prosecution.

On this point, Raffaele’s defence team, Giulia Bongiorno and Donatella Donati, concentrated their counter-attack, having thrown at the investigator numerous questions as to the merits of the Flying Squad’s visits into the inside of the house. “We have started to demonstrate [provare] that there was an accidental contamination of the murder scene”, lawyer Bongiorno advised during a recess in the hearing. Her reference is in regards to the collection procedure for the bra clasp – found on 2 November 2007 and seized on the 18 December succeeding – and to the searches carried out in the house by personnel of the Flying Squad.

“That fragment,” explains Bongiorno, “went for a walk around the room, from the acquired images of the crime scene it appears that it was even placed under a mat. Before talking about DNA traces, it has to be guaranteed that they were collected with a non-contamination guarantee. That environment was no longer pristine when the police entered, with out rubber [?monouso] gloves and without protocols [?tute] to carry out, in an absolutely legitimate manner, all the steps necessary for the investigations”.

The lawyer therefore harps back to the matter of the shoe print found in Meredith’s blood, which at first had been erroneously attributed to Sollecito, then turning out to be Rudy Guede’s, the ivorian sentenced to 30 years via fast-track trail for the same murder.

“Raffaele was arrested for a print that was not his,” concluded Bongiorno, “ and now the basis for his detention lies in a bra clasp that today we have begun to show can not be authentic, as fas as his traces present on it go”.


The rock, the collection of evidence

Public Prosecutor Manuela Comodi carried into court the rock recovered in Meredith’s house from the bedroom of one of the girl’s Italian house mates. According to the prosecutor, the rock was used to smash a pane of the window only after the murder [assassinio] of the girl, to simulate a burglary attempt by persons unknown. Guilty of the act, according to the prosecution, Sollecito and Knox, who would have thus tried to divert the investigations.

But according to the two accuseds’ defence, it was actually by that window, and using that rock, that the unknown party guilty of Meredith’s murder entered into the house.

Finally, it has emerged from the depositions that a withdrawal, for the amount of 20 euro, had been carried out at an ATM outlet [sportello bancomat] using Meredith’s credit card, but after the murder. According to the lawyer on the civil side, Francesco Maresca, though, it’s a case of “simply a bank computer error: in reality, the withdrawal”– the lawyer explains – “was done by Meredith before she was killed”. It was therefore judged “an item irrelevant to the investigations, reasons for which the recorded images of the withdrawal occasion were not acquired”, he concludes.

Bongiorno, in this context, has instead spoken of “one of the aspects not followed up by the investigations”.

At the next hearing, scheduled for Saturday 28 February, other police personnel depositions are expected, dealing with the initial investigations, after Meredith’s murder.

Cecilia Dalla Negra

Last Updated ( Friday, 27 February 2009 )


[ Fondazione ]


Translator’s note: Handy to know that “un errore di registrazione da parte del sistema informatico della banca” is legal shorthand for “bank computer error”.



[hr]
Note added: The word I am not sure about, "tute", may in fact refer in context to the plastic overalls worn by the forensics team. I will have to investigate.
01-Mar-2009 00:24 - Yes, mono-uso gloves are disposable gloves, and tute are those plastic forensics overalls.


Last edited by Catnip on Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline GreenWyvern


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:22 am   Post subject:    

Quote:
Ms Napoleone said: 'She was given water, chamomile tea and breakfast as well, she was given cakes from a vending machine and then taken to the canteen at the police station for something to eat.'

In the immortal words of Lewis Carroll:

They roused her with muffins—they roused her with ice—
 They roused her with mustard and cress—
They roused her with jam and judicious advice—
 They set her conundrums to guess.



ar ))
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Offline mojo


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 9:13 am   Post subject:    

this business regarding the bra clasp fragment "going for a walk around the room".....how do they come to this conclusion?? IIRC there was a bra on the floor, but this was not the bra in question, was it?
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Offline Principessa Etrusca


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 10:03 am   Post subject:    

I am a late arrival to the cartwheel/splits discussion, but would like to add a couple of things.

After spending a long time in one position, people sometimes need a light stretching exercise. Drivers who stop after hours at the wheel would often stretch their arms and upper body, backwards or move the upper body sideways. So would do people who spend a long time without getting up from their desk. Those simple stretches are commonly acceptable to do in some situations in public, i.e. in a car park, but not at a concert.

There is something showy, extreme and very inappropriate about doing both cartwheel and splits in a kind of official situation (let alone in the context of the gruesome death of a flatmate), these are not ordinary positions/movements that we do in the course of a usual daily routine. For me, cartwheel is associated with open space, feeling of freedom and happiness, whereas doing splits demonstrates an excellent flexibility of the muscles in the pelvic area. When splits are performed by a reasonably attractive woman showing off her flexibility in an inappropriate context, it may have some sexual connotation.

(Exercise and yoga are not alien to me, on the contrary. Sometimes in my kitchen, while waiting for the kettle to boil, I would do a quick vriksha-asana or ekapada-asana, which are simple positions promoting balance, if somebody walks in, I would not stop, but it is as far as it goes. Sometimes I would do a quick stretching exercise in my office, but it would be something very simple, like those which I have described.)
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Offline stewarthome2000


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Location: Perugia, Italy

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:23 am   Post subject: Can anyone total the lies???   

DLW wrote:
Lots of chatter on one of the other sites about Amanda being hit, punched, slapped , etc. But they don’t say who was doing all the hitting and slapping. But I believe the cops said that it was Amanda herself who was hitting her head during her interrogation. So I guess it doesn’t matter to the FOA who was doing what to whom. Only that it happened. Amanda hasn’t filed a claim, so I imagine it’s all just a moot point anyways. Just helps keep the troops over there fired up.

Note Tara: Also to think that Amanda did all those things in about 1 ½ hrs time. Simply amazing.


Knox wrote in here own words "I WAS HIT"...
On PS.blog, there is a video of Knox's Lawyer where he is asked by reporter, "was there pressure by the police on Amanda?" and he responds, "yes there was pressure, but not hitting, she was never hit, that was NEVER said,...just pressure".

We also now know that A spoke to Filomena at 22:30pm and the first interrogation ended at 1:45am... that is some 14 hour ordeal.
She submitted the voluntary statement at 5:45am.

Can somone make a table of the statements that turned out to be lies that have been regurgitated from A and her family and FOA?
I would love to see the list...I lost count. Their credibility and worse her credibility is zero.

I gotta go lay down...I drank some Chamomile and feel woozy.....priceless.


Last edited by stewarthome2000 on Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:31 am   Post subject:    

The 14 hours seems to sink in itself, anyway.

Frank has just posted his summary of yesterdays hearing and in it it is stated, that on Nov 5 the pair went to the police station at 22:15 (that is a good 5 hours later then the previouslay reported 5pm)
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Offline mistercrunch


Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:43 pm

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:36 am   Post subject: Re: Can anyone total the lies???   

stewarthome2000 wrote:
I gotta go lay down...I drank some Chamomile and feel woozy.....priceless.


Thats why she wasn´t sure if that place is a police station or a gym. Too much chamomile tea in her head.

One chamomile tea (the italian version) has the effect of 10+ joints, thats what a pharmacist told me. And nobody knows how much cupful she was forced to drink...maybe we get that from other sources.


Last edited by mistercrunch on Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:39 am   Post subject:    

"and the SECOND interrogation ended at 1:45am... that is some 14 hour ordeal.
She submitted the voluntary statement at 5:45am."

No, it was the first interrogation that finished at 1:45am.
The there was a spontaneous statement at 5:45am and another statement (that was the voluntary and admissible) in the evening.

However, in Franks blog he says that Monica Napoleoni said that her interview started at 3:30am so there is now some new confusion ...
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:42 am   Post subject:    

"One chamomile tea (the italian version) has the effect of 10+ joints"

Chamomile tea, as it is well known, was a standard method of the Spanish Inquisition, though even they considered it inhuman, so they used it only after the Spanish Boot and the Iron Maiden failed to get a confession.
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Offline GreenWyvern


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:45 am   Post subject:    

Another new tit-bit from the Telegraph

Quote:
A police officer, Marco Chiacchiera, told the court that no record was found of a telephone call that Mr Sollecito claims to have received on his apartment landline at 11pm on the night of the murder, Nov 1, 2007.

The lies in their statements to the police continue to accumulate...
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Offline stewarthome2000


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Location: Perugia, Italy

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:12 pm   Post subject: lies lies lies...yeaah   

bolint wrote:
"and the SECOND interrogation ended at 1:45am... that is some 14 hour ordeal.
She submitted the voluntary statement at 5:45am."

No, it was the first interrogation that finished at 1:45am.
The there was a spontaneous statement at 5:45am and another statement (that was the voluntary and admissible) in the evening.

However, in Franks blog he says that Monica Napoleoni said that her interview started at 3:30am so there is now some new confusion ...


THANKS...I meant to say FIRST... anyway the point being its all BS.
Finally, you guys are killing me with this chamomile stuff!

It would be fun to compile the list of public FOA statements that turned out to be lies. TKMK has a good "myth" list which includes the 14hour claim, the hitting, etc.
But its nice to see Knox's lawyer say its all BS...kinda seals it.

Also, my hat goes off the Kerchers who have been the quintessence of class... proper, composed (as in restrained from reaching across the courtroom and assaulting AK) and quietly waiting for justice to prevail. We share their tragic and senseless loss.
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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:04 pm   Post subject:    

Bertoldi's report in the Umbrian Courier this morning is full of information.
You get the impression that a lot had to be left out.


Quote:
“HERE ARE IS ALL THE EVIDENCE AGAINST AMANDA AND RAFF”.

Before the judge: The three investigators who coordinated the investigations.
PERUGIA28.02.2009

Acting inspector Monica Napoleoni


One entire day for two witnesses (head and deputy-head of the Flyers, Domenico Giacinto Profazio and Marco Chiacchiera) and a half day (the hearing was suspended at 7.35pm while Monica Napoleoni was being questioned), out of seven witnesses in the schedule.

Today will continue with the testimony of those not heard yesterday, that is, Lorena Zugarini, Rita Ficarra, Mauro Bigini (Edgardo Giobbi, from Rome, didn’t turn up). Those booked for today will slide along.

Profazio, 38 years and Chiacchiera, 42 years, stepped through the start [avvio] of the investigations.

Among the curiosities is
– the fact that during the initial investigations a Mahgribi was noted [segnalato], who had washed his clothes and shoes in a laundrette. (“But he had no relation [attinenza] to our investigation,” Chiacchiera assured (the court));
– the fact that inspector Michele Battistelli of the Polpost was asked to have the soles of his own shoes photographed (“To have absolute certainty that he hadn’t entered into Mez’s room, being the only one who had a pair of sport shoes on...”);
– the police hunch/intuition [fiuto] (Armando Finzi and the same Chiacchiera) who decided to seize the knife, from amongst the many that were in the Sollecito household, on which the scientific (police) later detected the DNA of Meredith and Amanda;
– the curiosity that Chiacchiera, on the day of the discovery of the body, used up three phone batteries keeping in touch with various hierarchies and for other obligations [adempimenti];
– that a jar of Vaseline, already partially used up, came to be found on the desk in Mez’s room;
– that a good 36 police officers signed Amanda Knox’s notification of arrest on the morning of 6 November;
– that Amanda’s [typographical error for Meredith’s] neck wound was really horrendous and such as to give unease [fastidio] even to investigators who have seen numerous murders (“She was butchered” - commented Napoleoni).

The three investigators heard yesterday have held their positions, explaining the how and why suspicions came to be directed [si fossero indirizzati], softly softly, towards the two lovers [fidanzatini], but the clashes and jousts [battibecchi =”beak-snapping"] with the defence were not far away (especially with Giulia Bongiorno, Carlo Della Vedova, but also, in a more restrained manner, with Luciano Ghirga and Donatella Donati).

In the attempt to show that the site access and crime scenes were not all mentioned (“The judicial police,” the investigators demurred, “don’t need to mention (things) where the Public Prosecutor was present…”) and that
the police did not enter into the murder scene in a manner that did not contaminate anything, the defenders launched a ring attack.

The police officers have repeated that, each time they entered, they put on gloves and shoe protectors (“But not the suit [tuta]”, objected Bongiorno). Not only that. Bongiorno pointed out to Napoleoni that disposable [monouso=”single-use”] gloves would have had to be changed each time that an object was touched, like the scientific police do. Napoleoni responded that one reckoning [conto] is the work of the judicial police who search for items of an investigative nature, another reckoning, that of the scientific police, whose job is to find prints, blood, latent traces.

On the knife found on 18 December by lawyer Tiziano Tedeschi, in the rear part of the cottage (grounds), Napoleoni remained trenchant: “On that aspect, Zugarini and Gubbiotti will have more to say. What is certain is that Tedeschi proffered a knife with a rounded tip and no handle, like those you use to spread jam on toasted slices [fette biscottate]... [ellipsis in original] Of no investigative interest, at all”. Another witness also mentioned how it appeared partially rusted.

On the matter of Sollecito’s computer, the witnesses stated that from 9.10pm to 5.32am there was, according to the PolPost experts, no human interaction (at all). The defence will show [caleranno] their cards when they will let their experts speak.

On Raffaele and Amanda’s telephone traffic, the three police officers were in agreement: Sollecito’s phone remained inactive from 8.42pm to 6.02am, that of Knox from 8.35pm until 12.03pm [the following afternoon]. Intriguing facts.

“We had a records search done and it resulted in that, prior, Raffaele’s phone was always active until a late hour, up until 11pm and until midnight…[ellipsis in original] That night, his as well as Amanda’s remained mute. Not counting that Raffaele said he received a call from his father on the landline at his house, which doesn’t seem to have been made [che non risulta esserci stata]”.

Clashes, too, on Mez’s bra clasp, which the Scientifica appear to have labelled with a letter of the alphabet during the first search, but which was collected only on 18 December. “I took note of the skyblue mat in Mez’s room, but I did not see the clasp. On the other side on the bright floor, the flesh coloured bra did not make it any easier to see it. I knew,” observed Napoleoni, “that the Scientifica found it that day”.

Bongiorno: “There remains the fact that, with respect to the first labelling, the clasp came to be found in a completely different place in the room…”[ellipsis in original]

Napoleoni referred to a touching particular: namely, that messages from her family were found on Mez’s phone, who, having learned from English television that a student had been killed in Perugia, a co-national of theirs, asked Meredith to call them back to set their minds at peace.

The phrase that made the defence hoist a flag up the mast [i.e., take umbrage, get their goat, etc] was spoken by Chiacchiera: “Amanda had been contradicted by Sollecito and by herself”. Apriti cielo. [“and the heavens opened”]

Elio Clero Bertoldi
[ Corriere dell' Umbria ] 28 Feb 2009




The police hunch is notable: (echoes of Casablanca) "of all the knives in a gin-joint like this, you pick the one that looked like it might have done the deed", and, lo and behold, it has DNA on it.

[hr]
Corrected typo: 20,42 = 8.42pm, not 10.42pm as originally posted.


Last edited by Catnip on Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline mistercrunch


Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:43 pm

Posts: 160

Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:06 pm   Post subject: Re: lies lies lies...yeaah   

stewarthome2000 wrote:

Also, my hat goes off the Kerchers who have been the quintessence of class... proper, composed (as in restrained from reaching across the courtroom and assaulting AK) and quietly waiting for justice to prevail. We share their tragic and senseless loss.


That´s right. Sad that this seems mostly like an irrelevant thought in this media-controlled circus.
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Offline stewarthome2000


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Posts: 152

Location: Perugia, Italy

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:25 pm   Post subject: more nips...   

[quote="Catnip"]Bertoldi's report in the Umbrian Courier this morning is full of information.
You get the impression that a lot had to be left out.
“HERE ARE IS ALL THE EVIDENCE AGAINST AMANDA AND RAFF”.[quote]

many thanks as always!
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Offline stewarthome2000


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Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:47 am

Posts: 152

Location: Perugia, Italy

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:42 pm   Post subject: ..first news of the day I suppose   

LA NAZIONE - SABATO 2/28

"Amanda Knox mi disse 'ti voglio fare un regalo'''. Queste le parole dell'ispettore capo della squadra mobile di Perugia Rita Ficarra che ha ricostruto davanti alla Corte d'assise la consegna di un memoriale nel quale la giovane americana riferiva alcuni particolari dell'omicidio di Meredith Kercher. Poche ore prima la studentessa aveva accusato Patrick Lumumba (poi prosciolto) dicendo in lacrime: ''e' lui, e' stato lui...''

Amanda says, "I want to give you a gift". These are the words of chief inspector (mobile squad) Rita Ficarra stated before the court..in whihc the young american was referring to certain details of the murder of Meredith Kercher... juts a few hours before she accused Patrick Lumumba while in tears, "it's him..it was him..."


"Ficarra ha sottolineato che la Knox ''non subì mai minacce o violenze''. ''Venne trattata - ha aggiunto - con fermezza ma con cordialità''.

The inspector emphasized that Knox was never threatened or subjected to violence"..she added " She was treated with cordiality"

"L'ispettore ha quindi detto che quando alla Knox venne fatto il nome di Lumumba in riferimento a un sms trovato sul suo cellulare lei ''si mise a piangere, si mise le mani in testa e cominciò a scrollarla''.
(having approached Raf and AK, where AK was doing cartwheels etc., in the corridor) "the inspector said Knox was told we found the SMS to/from Lumimba on her cellphone, "they began to cry, put their hand on their heads, and shake"


Last edited by stewarthome2000 on Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:51 pm   Post subject:    

From a story on Sky News, it's become obvious that some of the statements attributed to the defense were made to the press and not the court:

During a break in the hearings Ms Bongiorno said: "I think you can see we are beginning to show that the scene of the crime was contaminated.

"For example, that bra clasp did a round of all the rooms and was even under a carpet.

"Before you can start talking about DNA traces on that bra clasp you have to make sure that the evidence in question was properly handled and in this case it was not.

"That crime scene was not protected certain members of the Flying Squad entered incorrectly dressed, they may have had masks and covers on their shoes but they did not always wear gloves or overalls."

Ms Bongiorno added: "My client was arrested because it was said at the time the bloodied shoe print was his - it was later found to be that of Rudy Guede.

"Now he is being held because his DNA is said to be on a bra clasp but we have seen that bra clasp was not properly handled as we have begun to demonstrate."


Sky News

An error has been made about her quote about the bra clasp being "under" the mat.

Monica Napoleani said to the court that she didn't see it " on" the mat because its colour blended into the colour of the mat.

The "grand tour around the cottage" statement is also obviously for the benefit of the press. I doubt that claim was made in court.
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:53 pm   Post subject:    

From AGI:

The Inspector (Rita Ficarra): "Amanda asked me for pen and paper"

"Amanda asked me for paper and pen because 'she had intended to write and she said,' I want to make you a present '." He recalled today in courtroom, the Chief Inspector, Rita Ficarra, employed by the Perugia flying squad, the moment when, on the morning of 6 November 2007, after the detention of Knox and her statements that brought into the investigation Congolese musician Patrick Lumumba, the young student from Seattle, asked to have paper and pen to write and what 'was then termed the' memory of Amanda '.
"Amanda, gave me 'the letter and told me to read it before she was taken to jail - the inspector remembered-. She said that while reading it I could have a more clear idea' of what had happened the night of the crime and what she had wanted to say during the interrogation.
She told us that if we had doubts, we should have make questions before her transfer to prison. "The Amanda’s memorial takes shape a few hours after her interrogation, during which, for the first time, pulls in Lumumba, as the author pointing to the murder of Meredith Kercher.
"In the police under interrogation was Raffaele Sollecito - the inspector remembered-. At some point, my colleagues told me that Sollecito was saying different, diverse things and gave no more an alibi to Amanda. They then told me to hear the girl and ask her what she was doing the evening of 1 November. Amanda was initially surprised. We asked her to show her phone and she naturally did this. We found a message out box, around 20, 20.30 the first of November, sent to Lumumba. When We showed the sms asking who was this person, for a moment she remained looking at it, after which' and 'burst into tears, put her hands on her head and accused him of being the author of the crime". 'It is him ... and' ... and he ' it was him who kill her, "Amanda was then referring to Patrick Lumumba.
The inspector Ficarra underlines "Amanda at the police was not and never been treated badly' and that 'and' she was made to rest and eat '." In the inspector also remembers images of Amanda at the police station, on the evening of November 5. "I saw her near the lift door - the official said - while she was showing her skills' athletics, with the wheel and the split. A behavior that I thought not appropriate to the place and the situation and I reprimanded her. Amanda was also reprimanded because she continued to have a behavior that was not appropriate. In the police station she continued to hug and sbaciucchiarsi (kissing) with Raffaele. During previous testimony, the head of the murder of the police headquarters in Perugia, Monica Napoleoni, had spoken of a women's shoe imprint found on the pillow next to the body of Meredith and never assigned.

http://tinyurl.com/cp2ldp
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Offline Giustizia


Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:13 pm

Posts: 113

Location: New York City

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:56 pm   Post subject: Trial by trial   

I think this trial is just the beginning of a long, drawn-out process that will last years. Regardless of the verdicts, I think there will be an appeal. Followed by another appeal, or else the case will moved to the Italian Supreme Court. I think this has been touched on before - can someone with knowledge of the Italian judicial system outline the possible scenarios?
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:56 pm   Post subject:    

"Nel corso della precedente testimonianza della dirigente della sezione omicidi Monica Napolenoni era tra l'altro emerso che sul cuscino trovato sotto al corpo della vittima venne individuata un'impronta di scarpa femminile, di numero 36-38, mai attribuita con certezza."

During the preceding testimony of the head of the homicide department Monica Napoleoni emerged, among others, that on the cushion found under the victim's body an imprint of a woman's shoe of size 36-38 has been identified but it has never been attributed with certainty.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 2:05 pm   Post subject:    

Further clarification and context from both sides:

A court in the Italian university town of Perugia, where Miss Kercher, 21, was stabbed to death in Nov 2007, heard on Friday that Miss Knox turned cartwheels and did the splits as she waited for her boyfriend to be questioned about the killing...

Curt Knox, said his daughter was a yoga enthusiast and it was not unusual for her to break into a yoga pose in the middle of conversations.

"[This was] a kid who's never been exposed to something as gruesome as this. Maybe it's her way of dealing with that," said Mr Knox, a financial executive with the American department store Macy's. "Amanda does yoga and sometimes when I've been talking to her she'll stretch out and touch her toes."

Mr Knox also played down his daughter's appearance in court earlier this month, during a hearing on Valentine's Day, in a white t-shirt emblazoned with the words "All You Need Is Love" in large pink letters.

"That was blown out of all proportion - it was a simple shirt, nothing else," he said.




and



A police officer, Marco Chiacchiera, told the court that no record was found of a telephone call that Mr Sollecito claims to have received on his apartment landline at 11pm on the night of the murder, Nov 1, 2007.

The Italian IT graduate maintains he was in his flat that night but cannot remember if Miss Knox spent part or all of the night with him.



The Daily Telegraph
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 2:11 pm   Post subject:    

BANG!

Quote:
From Jool's post:

At some point, my colleagues told me that Sollecito was saying different, diverse things and gave no more an alibi to Amanda. They then told me to hear the girl and ask her what she was doing the evening of 1 November. Amanda was initially surprised. We asked her to show her phone and she naturally did this. We found a message out box, around 20, 20.30 the first of November, sent to Lumumba. When We showed the sms asking who was this person, for a moment she remained looking at it, after which' and 'burst into tears, put her hands on her head and accused him of being the author of the crime". 'It is him ... and' ... and he ' it was him who kill her, "Amanda was then referring to Patrick Lumumba.
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Offline GreenWyvern


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 2:21 pm   Post subject:    

bolint wrote:
During the preceding testimony of the head of the homicide department Monica Napoleoni emerged, among others, that on the cushion found under the victim's body an imprint of a woman's shoe of size 36-38 has been identified but it has never been attributed with certainty.


And according to TeleText,

Quote:
A policeman told the trial that forensic experts determined the shoe's size range encompassed the size worn by Amanda Knox, the accused US student.


So another piece of circumstantial evidence.

If it wasn't Amanda's footprint, then what other woman was present? I'm assuming it couldn't have been Meredith's otherwise they wouldn't regard it as significant.


Last edited by GreenWyvern on Sat Feb 28, 2009 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline mojo


Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:31 pm

Posts: 225

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 2:22 pm   Post subject:    

Catnip, bollint, THANK YOU. now, i finally understand why i can't get my head around this case....hands up -- i'm a chamomile tea drinker.

the jar of Vaseline bothers me. are we going to find out more about this later? i can hardly think what i'm thinking but i'm wondering if there's more to the sex game theory (which i always thought was a reach) than i previously believed?? :(
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Offline stewarthome2000


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Location: Perugia, Italy

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 2:40 pm   Post subject: corriere dell'umbria   

Sat, 28, 2008
CORRIERE DELL UMBRA

I also read that poor Raf when the whole night without his sox...
I thought that was funny because Italians would think that cruel... an open window can cause pnemonia.

With the juice coming out today, I am more interested in hearing what FOA have to say.
...did that rhyme? sorry
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Offline Bess


Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:41 pm

Posts: 69

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 2:43 pm   Post subject:    

Has Raffaele just made another spontaneous statement today to the effect that he wanted to call his father after being taken to the police station but was prevented from doing so?
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Offline stewarthome2000


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Location: Perugia, Italy

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 2:56 pm   Post subject:    

Bess wrote:
Has Raffaele just made another spontaneous statement today to the effect that he wanted to call his father after being taken to the police station but was prevented from doing so?


YES...This was actually in an article today. CORRIERE DELL SERA.

He states "«Sono stato per lungo tempo in Questura. Più volte ho chiesto e fatto presente alla polizia che volevo contattare mio padre, ma loro me lo hanno negato. Ho chiesto anche, in alternativa, di poter sospendere il verbale e chiamare un avvocato. Ma anche questo mi è stato negato..."

Basically, it says "I was in the police station for a long time. More than once I asked if I could speak to my father, but they refused. Ho also asked, well then, can I stop the verbal testimony and call a lawyer, but this they also refused..."

But I am not certain if they must do so if he was not formally declared as a suspect at the time. I dont know IT law, but i am sure there is a reason why they felt they could refuse him at the time.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 2:56 pm   Post subject:    

Monica Napoleoni



Later in the jail Raffaele phantasized about hitting her with the car

"Quando la incontrerò fuori la metterò sotto con la macchina
Repubblica — 22 giugno 2008 pagina 5 sezione: BARI

cronaca) dal nostro inviato meo ponte PERUGIA - La ricerca dell' appoggio di personaggi influenti risulta evidente già da una telefonata del 17 marzo tra Vanessa e Francesco Sollecito. Gli investigatori ne fanno una sintesi: «Vanessa dice al padre che ha parlato con quel loro "amico" di Napoli (senatore Aniello Formisano dell' Italia dei Valori, ndr) in merito ad un "favore" che lei gli deve fare. Ha fissato un appuntamento per mercoledì alle 12,30. Le intenzioni di Vanessa e di suo padre sono quelle di poter chiedere un "interessamento" del senatore in merito alla posizione processuale di Raffaele». E l' 8 maggio Francesco Sollecito parlando con la cognata Rosaria Achille, detta Sara, esponente di An, tira in ballo un altro politico di spicco, Domenico Nania, neo-eletto alla vicepresidenza del Senato. La Mobile annota: «Nella conversazione è chiaro che entrambi si stiano facendo avanti presso personaggi importanti per ottenere "un interessamento" per far liberare Raffaele». L' estenuante ricerca di appoggi influenti si accompagna alla continua (e violentissima) denigrazione di magistrati e poliziotti definiti di volta in volta «maiali, bastardi, figli di p.» e ritenuti responsabili di un' indagine basata esclusivamente sul pregiudizio e quindi «da scuoiare, scalpare, spellare vivi». Il piano di delegittimazione degli investigatori prevede anche una rumorosa campagna mediatica in cui i più attivi appaiono lo zio Giuseppe, l' avvocato Tiziano Tedeschi e suo fratello Enrico. Il 9 marzo Sara parlando con Enrico Tedeschi annuncia un dossier che deve servire per la Cassazione e per "certe persone". Giuseppe Sollecito è anche lo stratega che vuole coinvolgere l' avvocato Giulia Bongiorno nella difesa. E' evidente che disprezza gli avvocati perugini (Luca Maori e Marco Brusco) che nella telefonata del 27 marzo definisce: «Ciarlatani che continuano ad andare in televisione. Puffi, buffoni che vanno a fare pagliacciate in tv. Fanno solo show, ma non è nulla di utile per il processo~». Ed è lui a storpiare il nome dell' avvocato Maresca, legale della famiglia di Meredith Kercher, in «Ventresca». Annota la polizia: «Giuseppe vorrebbe far revocare dal fratello Francesco il mandato ai legali perugini nominando la Bongiorno perché persona più "influente"». Il 5 giugno Mara, la matrigna, contatta Telenorba. «Lo scopo è quello di organizzare con giornalisti di Mediaset - scrivono gli investigatori - una trasmissione top secret che dovrà andare in onda il 2 luglio con la finalità di screditare l' operato della polizia scientifica di Roma come già fatto dalla trasmissione "Il Graffio" andata in onda il 31 marzo». Tutto viene riferito a Raffaele durante i colloqui in carcere. E durante l' intercettazione di uno dei questi, il giovane accusato di omicidio apprendendo dal padre che la responsabile della sezione omicidi di Perugia, il commissario Monica Napoleoni, «è finita perché chi conta sta per eliminarla» commenta: «Quando la incontrerò fuori dal carcere la metterò sotto con la macchina, facendo finta di nulla». - (SEGUE DALLA PRIMA PAGINA) DAL NOSTRO INVIATO "
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 3:12 pm   Post subject:    

SH2000 wrote:
"But I am not certain if they must do so if he was not formally declared as a suspect at the time. I dont know IT law, but i am sure there is a reason why they felt they could refuse him at the time."

He was at that time a "person informed of the facts" (in court he would be called witness), and as susch he was not entitled for legal assistance (just as witnesses aren't in court).
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Offline Bess


Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:41 pm

Posts: 69

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 3:14 pm   Post subject:    

From the AP:

Another spontaneous statement: ....."Knox also claimed she was treated badly while at police headquarters for questioning. Speaking Italian in a confident-sounding voice, she said it was only after she gave police statement that she was "treated like a person" and given food and drink."

....."Also on Saturday, policewoman Rita Ficarra, testified that Knox grew "bothered and tired" by police questioning.

"I told her off, and I asked her: `Don't you realize we're talking about the murder of a friend of yours?"' Ficarra told the court."

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... QD96KL20G0
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Offline stewarthome2000


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Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:47 am

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Location: Perugia, Italy

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 3:27 pm   Post subject:    

[quote="Bess"]From the AP:
AP NEWS ARTICLE

I heard about the foot print before from friends in PG who told me it was the right size for Amanda. They could not identify the exact shoes it came from.
My guess is that she probably got rid of those with other bloody items... ma chi sa.
Anyway, they should identify the brand and make... wouldnt be another inconvenient coincidence if it turns out to be a type of show AK once owned, or commonly sold in the US. Maybe we will hear more of this.
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Offline Greggy


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Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:10 pm

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 3:32 pm   Post subject:    

I'm wary about the strength of the bra clasp evidence concerning RS's guilt.

I have read different accounts, but it sounds like there are 5 sources of DNA on it:
(1) MK; (2) RS; (3) the cart-wheeling huntress; (4) unknown; (5) unknown
Since girls regularly wash their brassieres, you can't blame the unknowns on the factory workers who made it.
I am interested in finding out the number of DNA sources the Prosecution scientists testify to have found on the clasp.

The bra clasp was collected 45 days after the crime. It was found in a different part of the room than where it was originally noted.
Why didn't they collect the clasp the first day so we wouldn't have this quandary. The collection phase of this evidence doesn't indicate contamination, but it could imply it.

I hope someone on our forum sees the graphs comparing the relative fluorescent unit (RFU) values of the DNA sources on the bra clasp. If RS's Defense DNA Expert is going to claim a passive trace transfer of his cells while stuck to AK's cells on the bra clasp, well, then the RFUs of AK's DNA better be far greater than the RFUs of RS's DNA derived from the clasp. Otherwise, AK's Defense DNA Expert could turn it around and say RS was the one that touched the clasp and her cells were passively transferred. In reality, any passive transfer is highly far-fetched if you can derive identifiable DNA.

If they have better DNA evidence than this against RS, they may want to consider letting this Pandoran evidence go.
I don't like the introduction into evidence of other unknown sources of DNA on the clasp that are beyond the power of a PCR machine to amplify to identifiable levels. RS's Defense Team could turn this around into suggesting that other unknown assailants working with RG committed the murder. And implying if AK hadn't cleaned up the crime scene, there would be more of their DNA found. It is a way RS's Defense Team can agree that this wasn't a Lone Wolf crime, but that their boy wasn't involved.
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Offline Fly by Night


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:09 pm

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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 3:37 pm   Post subject: Re: Trial by trial   

Giustizia wrote:
I think this trial is just the beginning of a long, drawn-out process that will last years. Regardless of the verdicts, I think there will be an appeal. Followed by another appeal, or else the case will moved to the Italian Supreme Court. I think this has been touched on before - can someone with knowledge of the Italian judicial system outline the possible scenarios?


It seems a shame, doesn't it, but this is how it goes when suspects choose to have everything outlined and proven once, twice, maybe three or more times before all is said and done. How can these suspects possibly complain about a miscarriage of justice? The Italian system is giving them all the time and opportunity in the world to prove innocence before issuing a verdict - under a hot, media spotlight - not a bad place for a suspect to be, really. When Amanda cried in court do you think it was for Meredith? It seems to me that she saw her father and came to the realization that there were going to be many, many seemingly endless days just like this.
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Offline Fly by Night


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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 3:46 pm   Post subject: Start the audio-loop...   

Bess wrote:
From the AP:
....."Also on Saturday, policewoman Rita Ficarra, testified that Knox grew "bothered and tired" by police questioning.

"I told her off, and I asked her: `Don't you realize we're talking about the murder of a friend of yours?"' Ficarra told the court."


Pull the string on Curt Knox's back and 99 out of 100 times here's what you get:
"But that doesn't make her guilty of murder..."
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 3:49 pm   Post subject:    

Bess wrote:
From the AP:

Another spontaneous statement: ....."Knox also claimed she was treated badly while at police headquarters for questioning. Speaking Italian in a confident-sounding voice, she said it was only after she gave police statement that she was "treated like a person" and given food and drink."

....."Also on Saturday, policewoman Rita Ficarra, testified that Knox grew "bothered and tired" by police questioning.

"I told her off, and I asked her: `Don't you realize we're talking about the murder of a friend of yours?"' Ficarra told the court


Hi Bess,

For months Knox's parents and supporters have claimed the following:

1. Knox was questioned all night/for 14 hours.

2. Knox was hit or "smacked around" by the police.

3. Knox was questioned without food or water.

4. Knox was asked to imagine what might have happened

5. Knox was questioned without an interpreter/translator.

Knox was not "smacked around" or hit by the police. Luciano Ghirga, confirmed that Amanda had not actually been beaten or “smacked around” at Rudy Guede’s fast-track trial last October: “There were pressures from the police but we never said she was hit.”.

Knox was questioned for approximately 3 hours: from around 10.40pm to 1.45am.

The claim Knox had nothing to drink or eat has been shown to be untrue. It turns out she was given water, chamomile tea, breakfast, cakes from a vending machine and then taken to the canteen at the police station for something to eat.

Rita Ficarra claimed that Knox accused Diya Lumumba after she scrolled down her address on her mobile phone and seeing his name.

It simply isn't true that Knox didn't have an interpreter when she was questioned. Curt Knox has admitted this in televison interviews, but he claims the interpreter wasn't a professional interpreter.
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Offline mistercrunch


Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:43 pm

Posts: 160

Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 3:49 pm   Post subject:    

Greggy wrote:
I'm wary about the strength of the bra clasp evidence concerning RS's guilt.

I have read different accounts, but it sounds like there are 5 sources of DNA on it:
(1) MK; (2) RS; (3) the cart-wheeling huntress; (4) unknown; (5) unknown
Since girls regularly wash their brassieres, you can't blame the unknowns on the factory workers who made it.
I am interested in finding out the number of DNA sources the Prosecution scientists testify to have found on the clasp.



And why is there no DNA from Rudy? If he was the lone-wolf, and the bra is opened, who else could have opened it? Or am i wrong?

So much for the lone-wolf-theory, from the defense- or FOA-point-of-view.
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Offline Jools


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 4:06 pm   Post subject:    

Short video link. Nick Pisa for Sky News:

*Knox blames barman*

http://tinyurl.com/bee4sr
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 4:14 pm   Post subject:    

Raffaele spontaneous statement:

Basically, it says "I was in the police station for a long time. More than once I asked if I could speak to my father, but they refused.

He had absolutely no rights allowing him to speak to his father. He was well over the age of majority and and regarded as a man in the eyes of the law.
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Offline Fly by Night


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Posts: 1014

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 4:15 pm   Post subject: Re: ..first news of the day I suppose   

weird...deleted double post....


Last edited by Fly by Night on Sat Feb 28, 2009 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Fly by Night


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:09 pm

Posts: 1014

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 4:16 pm   Post subject: Re: ..first news of the day I suppose   

stewarthome2000 wrote:
LA NAZIONE - SABATO 2/28

"Amanda Knox mi disse 'ti voglio fare un regalo'''. Queste le parole dell'ispettore capo della squadra mobile di Perugia Rita Ficarra che ha ricostruto davanti alla Corte d'assise la consegna di un memoriale nel quale la giovane americana riferiva alcuni particolari dell'omicidio di Meredith Kercher. Poche ore prima la studentessa aveva accusato Patrick Lumumba (poi prosciolto) dicendo in lacrime: ''e' lui, e' stato lui...''

Amanda says, "I want to give you a gift". These are the words of chief inspector (mobile squad) Rita Ficarra stated before the court..in whihc the young american was referring to certain details of the murder of Meredith Kercher... juts a few hours before she accused Patrick Lumumba while in tears, "it's him..it was him..."


"Ficarra ha sottolineato che la Knox ''non subì mai minacce o violenze''. ''Venne trattata - ha aggiunto - con fermezza ma con cordialità''.

The inspector emphasized that Knox was never threatened or subjected to violence"..she added " She was treated with cordiality"

"L'ispettore ha quindi detto che quando alla Knox venne fatto il nome di Lumumba in riferimento a un sms trovato sul suo cellulare lei ''si mise a piangere, si mise le mani in testa e cominciò a scrollarla''.
(having approached Raf and AK, where AK was doing cartwheels etc., in the corridor) "the inspector said Knox was told we found the SMS to/from Lumimba on her cellphone, "they began to cry, put their hand on their heads, and shake"


What a complete let-down! I was really expecting to hear about how Mignini came into the room to begin his trademark dream-sequence interrogation, complete in hooded cape with rolled up newspaper to smack Amanda on the head if she didn't play along. Mignini wasn't even there? Amanda gave up Lumumba voluntarily as a "gift"? Amanda was not beaten up, deprived of food and water, or water-boarded? Everything the FOA has put in the blogs and press is a lie? I'm wondering why Seattle/US news outlets don't report these kinds of courtroom details. We repeatedly hear from reporters who are supposedly "following the case", but all we get is reports of cartwheels and statements from the Knox family saying "if that's all they have then she's innocent" - hey, my cat knows more about this case than the local Seattle reporters.
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 4:19 pm   Post subject:    

mistercrunch wrote:
And why is there no DNA from Rudy? If he was the lone-wolf, and the bra is opened, who else could have opened it? Or am i wrong?


Hi mistercrunch,

The idea that Knox's and Sollecito's DNA got onto a Meredith's bra clasp by contamination is nonsense and was categorically excluded by Patrizia Stefononi and Dr. Renato Biondo. Patrizia Stefanoni noted the amount of Sollecito's DNA on Meredith's bra was "very abundant". There's no way that the DNA of BOTH Knox and Sollecito managed to magically get transferred onto the small bra clasp via the feet of a policeman. Greggy is a man of science, but the contamination scenario is pure science fiction.

Meredith's bra was removed some time after she had been murdered. Judge Paolo Micheli ruled out the possibilty that Guede returned to the cottage to remove Meredith's bra and move her body, as well as stage the break in and clean up. Judge Micheli concluded that Knox and Sollecito returned to the cottage and removed the bra.

The latest revelation from today's evidence also places Knox in Meredith's room when Meredith was killed:

A bloodied shoe print found under the body of British student Meredith Kercher is similar in size to the one worn by suspect Amanda Knox, an Italian court has heard.

The head of Perugia's murder squad, Monica Napoleoni, testified that forensic experts found the shoe's size ranged from 36-38 (3.5-5 UK) and that Knox wears a 37 (4 UK).
(Sky News).
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 4:31 pm   Post subject:    

A bloodied shoe print found under the body of British student Meredith Kercher is similar in size to the one worn by suspect Amanda Knox, an Italian court has heard.

The head of Perugia's murder squad, Monica Napoleoni, testified that forensic experts found the shoe's size ranged from 36-38 (3.5-5 UK) and that Knox wears a 37 (4 UK). (Sky News).



Two things for sure. That footprint didn't belong to Rudy or Meredith.

Rudy's feet are twice the size.

Meredith was in bare feet when her body was found and the footprint was made by a woman's shoe the bottom of which was covered in Meredith's blood.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 4:45 pm   Post subject:    

"and the footprint was made by a woman's shoe the bottom of which was covered in Meredith's blood."

So much for the Lone Wolf theory (not that it was ever viable).
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 4:52 pm   Post subject:    

Quote:
Raffaele's diary:
"I don't remember how she was dressed day 1, but I'm sure that she had changed and had put on the white skirt and her usual black hiking shoes."
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 5:14 pm   Post subject:    

Mistercrunch wrote:

Quote:
Greggy wrote:
I'm wary about the strength of the bra clasp evidence concerning RS's guilt.

I have read different accounts, but it sounds like there are 5 sources of DNA on it:
(1) MK; (2) RS; (3) the cart-wheeling huntress; (4) unknown; (5) unknown
Since girls regularly wash their brassieres, you can't blame the unknowns on the factory workers who made it.
I am interested in finding out the number of DNA sources the Prosecution scientists testify to have found on the clasp.




And why is there no DNA from Rudy? If he was the lone-wolf, and the bra is opened, who else could have opened it? Or am i wrong?

So much for the lone-wolf-theory, from the defense- or FOA-point-of-view.



I am sure that the folk FOAK have a perfectly logical explanation for why Rudy "Lone Wolf" Guede's DNA was not found on the victim's bra - provided by its logic wizard, Charlie "Bertrand Russell" Wilkes - even though he left his DNA "all over the place" - according to FOAK "Science Person" Funnycat, the world-renowned, rogue pioneer in flying DNA experimentation and theory.

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Offline Jools


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 5:20 pm   Post subject:    

From IL Messaggero:
Lumumba: "How affects me to go back"

PERUGIA – There is at the Court of Assizes, sitting in the space provided for the "insiders working on the case", positioned on the side of lawyer Pacelli who assists as a civil party, a character who, from the beginning of the trial of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito is very attentive, not even misses a beat of what is being said in the courtroom.
Ethnic hair-cut, air apparently lost to those who find themselves in an environment that brings awe, Patrick Lumumba yesterday had to relive some moments that have seen him as a protagonist in the first days of November 2007 after the murder of Meredith Kercher.
Yesterday in fact were sitting on the bench of the witnesses, Dr. Giacinto Profazio, at the time of the mobile manager, and the head of the homicide Monica Napoleoni, who submitted to the line of questions from pm Giuliano Mignini and Manuela Comodi, defense lawyers defendants Ghirga Luciano, Carlo Dalla Vedova, Marco Brusco, Giulia Bongiorno, they have repeatedly mentioned the name of Patrick.
'They have taken me back in time - says Lumumba - and again to those days, I revisited the ugly moments of the past. Then I wondered how it could be possible that an innocent person should spend those moments of terror. It seem I have seen a bad film, a horror film - says Lumumba - I seen me with the handcuffs to my wrists in front of my wife holding my son in her arms, and you can imagine my discomfort that arose questions in my wife, which, despite the certainty of my innocence did not know what would happen to us. "
"I knew Amanda - explain again - worked for me and I just noticed that she seemed very egocentric, one who always wanted to be in the spotlight."
"I could not explain, however – if would finish - if this knowledge would be enough for investigators of my incrimination.
And Patrick Lumumba closes: "I have again seen myself in jail terrified by the fact that I could not get out, then fortunately the truth and reason have prevailed and today I can say with all the serenity of having regained full confidence in the Italian justice, a trust that I, as a foreign national guest in Italy, in those moments I was strongly into challenged. "

http://tinyurl.com/b3sbgt
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 5:37 pm   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
I am sure that the folk FOAK have a perfectly logical explanation for why Rudy "Lone Wolf" Guede's DNA was not found on the victim's bra - provided by its logic wizard, Charlie "Bertrand Russell" Wilkes - even though he left his DNA "all over the place" - according to FOAK "Science Person" Funnycat, the world-renowned, rogue pioneer in flying DNA experimentation and theory.


:D

Carefull Skep,

Rudy's DNA was found on one of Meredith's bra cups. (Micheli noted it did in fact match with Rudy's claim about his amorous advances towards Meredith - In his story Rudy describes how and where he touched Meredith and his story matched with the cup on which his DNA was found{left or right}).

However, Rudy's DNA is not on Merediths bra clasp or I believe on the backstrap
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Offline stewarthome2000


User avatar


Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:47 am

Posts: 152

Location: Perugia, Italy

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 5:38 pm   Post subject: Just for fun....   

We have all be subject to these FOA diatribes. For those who know the truth its just infuriating to watch, because the TV hosts are getting totally snowed and ya can’t reach through the TV and set the record straight.

YOU TUBE - AMANDAS PARENTS SPEAK OUT

Want a laugh? Fast forward to the 4:15 mark and listen.
Matt asks “if the evidence is flimsy or circumstantial why are they going forward with a full blown trial” Listen to the eloquent moron step sister’s response. The parents are just looking at her and not correcting that ridiculous and insulting statement. But check out their expressions...they are also looking at her like she is frikkin nuts. I can barely type I am laughing too hard....
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Offline Professor Snape


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Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:53 pm

Posts: 247

Location: Seattle. WA

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 5:44 pm   Post subject:    

The Machine wrote:

For months Knox's parents and supporters have claimed the following:

1. Knox was questioned all night/for 14 hours.

2. Knox was hit or "smacked around" by the police.

3. Knox was questioned without food or water.

4. Knox was asked to imagine what might have happened

5. Knox was questioned without an interpreter/translator.

Knox was not "smacked around" or hit by the police. Luciano Ghirga, confirmed that Amanda had not actually been beaten or “smacked around” at Rudy Guede’s fast-track trial last October: “There were pressures from the police but we never said she was hit.”.

Knox was questioned for approximately 3 hours: from around 10.40pm to 1.45am.

The claim Knox had nothing to drink or eat has been shown to be untrue. It turns out she was given water, chamomile tea, breakfast, cakes from a vending machine and then taken to the canteen at the police station for something to eat.

Rita Ficarra claimed that Knox accused Diya Lumumba after she scrolled down her address on her mobile phone and seeing his name.

It simply isn't true that Knox didn't have an interpreter when she was questioned. Curt Knox has admitted this in televison interviews, but he claims the interpreter wasn't a professional interpreter.


Do we know for a fact if it is protocol for the police station to video record the actions of the suspect and interaction between inspector and suspect during questioning? Perhaps this fact may have motivated Ms. Knox to “see a change in heart” of her claim of being struck so as not to dig herself in that much deeper of a hole.

Unforgivable curses!

Professor Snape

_________________
"Wizard of Healing Potions and Alibis"


Last edited by Professor Snape on Sat Feb 28, 2009 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Greggy


User avatar


Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:10 pm

Posts: 208

Location: Southern USA

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 5:47 pm   Post subject:    

Our colleague, The Machine, is absolutely correct. If Dr. Stefanoni testified that the amount of RS's DNA on MK's bra was "very abundant", then any passive transfer hypothesis is science fiction. Don't be surprised, however, if RS's Defense DNA Expert still tries to propose it anyway. His Defense Team may be desperate at that point.

I don't know if Dr. Stefanoni has testified about the amount of AK's DNA on the bra. I think we can assume, however, that Dr. Stefanoni's assured testimony indicates that the RFU levels and the signal-to-noise ratios identifying the sample were so conclusive, that RS can not be excluded from having touched her bra clasp, which means he was probably the one who removed MK's bra. It is thought that MK's bra was removed after her death due to the dried blood pattern on her back. The DNA evidence indicates, at the very least, that RS was involved in the cover-up and obstruction of justice. No wonder his Defense Team is fighting so hard to get this evidence removed from consideration based on its delayed collection from the cottage. The jail time clock has started spinning for RS.

Do you remember how RS came up with the crazy story of him accidentally cutting MK with a knife one night when she came over with AK to his apartment for dinner? I wouldn't be surprised if he now tells his Defense Team that he returned to the cottage after the police left and picked up the bra clasp, but put it back down in the place he found it. His Defense Team will look at each other and think:"What have we gotten ourselves into?"
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 5:52 pm   Post subject:    

Brian wrote:

Quote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:

I am sure that the folk FOAK have a perfectly logical explanation for why Rudy "Lone Wolf" Guede's DNA was not found on the victim's bra - provided by its logic wizard, Charlie "Bertrand Russell" Wilkes - even though he left his DNA "all over the place" - according to FOAK "Science Person" Funnycat, the world-renowned, rogue pioneer in flying DNA experimentation and theory.




Carefull Skep,

Rudy's DNA was found on one of Meredith's bra cups. (Micheli noted it did in fact match with Rudy's claim about his amorous advances towards Meredith - In his story Rudy describes how and where he touched Meredith and his story matched with the cup on which his DNA was found{left or right}).

However, Rudy's DNA is not on Merediths bra clasp or I believe on the backstrap


Thanks, Brian. I should have written "on the victim's bra strap or clasp". :)

_________________
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Offline Jools


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:04 pm   Post subject: Will not end in parity?   

Catnip or any translators, could you please translate this article from Il Messaggero if you think is relevant and worth it.
Thanks. :lol:

"Comunque vada non finirà in parità"

Sabato 28 Febbraio 2009
di GIUSEPPE CAFORIO

IL processo Meredith secondo la previsione del nostro codice di procedura penale riformato è entrato nel vivo con quella fase dibattimentale mutuata dal processo anglosassone nota con il nome di cross-examination. Con tale termine si indica l’esame incrociato da parte dell’accusa e della difesa con il coordinamento da parte dell’organo giudicante, finalizzato all’acquisizione delle prove testimoniali. In altri termini, accusa e difesa cercano, interrogando i testi, di sostenere le proprie argomentazioni, confortandole con le testimonianze di chi per varie ragioni ha avuto cognizioni dei fatti di causa. La cross-examination sostanzialmente nel nostro ordinamento ha quattro fasi: l’esame diretto della parte che ha chiesto la testimonianza, il controesame effettuato dall’altra parte che non ha richiesto quel test, il riesame costituente in nuove domande fatte dalla parte che ha richiesto il test ed infine l’interrogatorio da parte del giudice. Nell’udienza di ieri sono stati ascoltati i dirigenti della polizia giudiziaria che hanno effettuato le indagini e che quindi sono stati chiamati a rendere testionianza dalla Procura.
Mentre l’esame diretto tutto sommato è andato spedito, in sede di controesame le difese hanno fatto ricorso a tutte le tecniche dell’interrogatorio utili ad ingenerare debolezze alle argomentazioni dell’accusa. Uno dei principi cardine in materia di acquisizione delle prove testimoniali è data dal libero apprezzamento che l’organo giudicante deve fare in relazione alla credibilità del teste. Se il teste, ovviamente stuzzicato, si lascia andare a giudizi personali, sensazioni e opinioni indebolisce fortemente la propria credibilità. Il nostro codice penale prevede che il teste debba semplicemente riferire ciò di cui ha avuto cognizione diretta, astenendosi da ogni valutazione. Nell’interrogatorio di coloro che hanno effettuato le indagini reiteratamente sono emerse valutazioni personali che, se da un lato dimostravano il coinvolgimento emotivo nella vicenda Kercher, dall’altro hanno costretto più volte il presidente del collegio ad intervenire per riportare la testimonianza nell’alveo della previsione normativa.
Occorre dare atto alle difese che, ricorrendo a domande suggestive sono riuscite a provocare un pathos espositivo negli investigatori che certamente non ha influito positivamente ai fini delle posizioni dell’accusa. Occorre però dare il giusto peso a quelle che si possono definire schermaglie dialettiche nell’abito del dibattimento processuale, in quanto nella sostanza le prove testimoniali di ieri non hanno aggiunto o tolto alcunché alla dinamica processuale. Ciò significa che le posizioni dell’accusa e della difesa sono uscite sostanzialemente intatte sotto il profilo del sostegno alle proprie tesi. Quello cui stiamo assistendo rimane un processo indiziario dove difficilmente le prove testimoniali potranno aggiungere o togliere qualcosa al quadro complessivo, demandando quindi il difficile compito di rimettere insieme il puzzle degli indizi, a favore e contro, all’organo giudicante. Ci troviamo quindi di fronte al più classico dei processi indiziari dove a seconda da dove si parte si può giungere con argomentazioni geometriche e simmetriche a conclusioni diametralmente opposte. Forse l’ultima cosa che si possa escludere fin da adesso sono soluzioni mediane.
Docente di scienze
dell’investigazione
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:04 pm   Post subject:    

Could someone show me an Italian source for the bloody shoeprint that emerged yesterday? They report the shoeprint but none of them mentions blood.
I could only find English language news that mention the blood and I would like to exlude any misinformation.
(I don't know what other shoeprint could have been discovered but the blood would prove that it was left after the crime and would practically exclude that it was Meredith's)
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:10 pm   Post subject:    

"step sister"

sister
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Offline Giustizia


Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:13 pm

Posts: 113

Location: New York City

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:45 pm   Post subject:    

bolint wrote:
Could someone show me an Italian source for the bloody shoeprint that emerged yesterday?


When I searched on "impronta di scarpa femminile" with/without the name "Monica Napoleoni" I found these three articles which mentions a woman's shoe print found under the pillow:

Processo per l’omicidio di Meridith al banco dei testimoni la polizia

Le parole dell'ispettore Ficarra: "Amanda disse 'Ti faccio un regalo'"

Le parole di Giulia Bongiorno: "Stiamo dimostrando la contaminazione delle prove"

It's only the last article that explicitly mentions blood too--

"La Bongiorno è anche tornata sull'impronta di una scarpa trovata nel sangue inizialmente attribuita a Sollecito e poi rivelatasi di Rudy Guede. ''Raffaele - ha affermato l'avvocato - è stato arrestato per un' impronta non sua e ora le ragioni della sua detenzione sono in un gancetto di reggiseno che oggi abbiamo cominciato a dimostrare non essere genuino per quanto riguarda le tracce su di esso presenti'"


Last edited by Giustizia on Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline DLW


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:41 pm

Posts: 623

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:46 pm   Post subject:    

An article from MSNBC and a short video of a news brief on TV. Nothing much new that I haven’t already heard, except that they mentioned that Amanda (& Raffaele?) had denied smoking hash or doing drugs on Nov.1, until later in the investigation or when they were interoggated on Nov. 5.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29437038/
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Offline mojo


Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:31 pm

Posts: 225

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:48 pm   Post subject:    

bollint, can't link you to an Italian source, but Nick Pisa is there and reporting from Perugia. on the skynews story he leads with it.

Meredith Trial: 'Shoe Print Linked To Knox'

Nick Pisa, in Perugia

A bloodied shoe print found under the body of British student Meredith Kercher is similar in size to the one worn by suspect Amanda Knox, an Italian court has heard.

The head of Perugia's murder squad, Monica Napoleoni, testified that forensic experts found the shoe's size ranged from 36-38 (3.5-5 UK) and that Knox wears a 37 (4 UK).
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:59 pm   Post subject:    

"It's only the last article that explicitly mentions blood too-- "

Yes, but that's the well known and much-debated Nike footprint of large size, not the woman's shoe that came up yesterday.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 7:18 pm   Post subject:    

DLW wrote:
"An article from MSNBC and a short video of a news brief on TV"

It's good, it says that it was Amanda who refused the lawyer's help during interrogation.

Also, the anchor seems to be surprised by the cartwheels thereby destroying what I've just started to believe, based on comments in Candace's blog, that cartwheels are so common in Seattle that people prefer them to cars. :D
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 7:21 pm   Post subject:    

"but Nick Pisa is there and reporting from Perugia"

Yes, so are Nick Squires, Andrea Vogt and many others, but I think they take over information from each other heavily.
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Offline mojo


Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:31 pm

Posts: 225

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 7:31 pm   Post subject:    

right you are -- here's what Nick Squires has to say:

Woman's bloodstained footprint found under Meredith Kercher's body
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Offline Tara


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Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

Posts: 1010

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 7:39 pm   Post subject: ANDREA VOGT   

Here is Andrea Vogt's report posted last night in the Seattle PI:

SEATTLE PI ANDREA VOGT
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 7:56 pm   Post subject:    

More interesting analysis from Button (eclectchap.blogspot.com):

Quote:
Saturday, February 28
Mez: FEM FOOTPRINT (2#) -
Meredith Kercher Murder -

Monica Napoleani, head of the Homicide Unit, has testified today that a bloody shoe print compatible with the size worn by Amanda Knox was found on the pillow which had been placed under Meredith's body.

But the print has not been matched to any shoe owned by Knox.

It is also possible that Knox could have disposed of such shoes by tossing them in a garbage bin or even in the nearby ravine, just as Meredith's phones were found tossed into a neighbor's garden.

Elsewhere, Napoleani was quoted yesterday saying something that caught like a burr in my consciousness. It was something to the effect that Meredith wasn't simply murdered, but, rather, Meredith was butchered. Spot on! Yes, that was my feeling, too.

It didn't seem like the murderer was wildly waving a knife around and impulsively lashed out to slash Meredith's neck. The neck is a rather narrow target area. To push a knife into someone's neck would seem to require a deliberate decision and an act of intensity (emotion), will, and physical force.

From what font would such an act issue? One supposes it would be a font of intense malice. But why such malice? Widely described by those who knew her, Meredith was a sunny gal with a good sense of humor, warm heart, and bubbly disposition.

What was it that Meredith seemed to have, that Amanda Knox did not have? Perhaps, a father.

Kurt Knox may be paying a big price now for leaving his first family. Amanda may have felt abandoned. She certainly has gotten his attention now.

The trial continues; there may be more later.



And good reporting by Andrea Vogt for the PI.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:03 pm   Post subject:    

Bolint wrote:

Quote:
DLW wrote:
"An article from MSNBC and a short video of a news brief on TV"

It's good, it says that it was Amanda who refused the lawyer's help during interrogation.

Also, the anchor seems to be surprised by the cartwheels thereby destroying what I've just started to believe, based on comments in Candace's blog, that cartwheels are so common in Seattle that people prefer them to cars.



I can see the West Seattle bridge from my troll station at Luna Park and let me tell you this: from Monday through Friday, during the 5-7 pm rush hour, it is just one continuous line of cartwheels as far as the eye can see. Occasionally, you see someone doing the splits too; but only when traffic is at a standstill. I have heard people do this to relieve tension. That is probably because here in Seattle we drink way too much Starbuck's coffee and not nearly enough chamomile tea.

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Last edited by Skeptical Bystander on Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Fly by Night


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:09 pm

Posts: 1014

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:04 pm   Post subject: Story never changed?   

DLW wrote:
An article from MSNBC and a short video of a news brief on TV. Nothing much new that I haven’t already heard, except that they mentioned that Amanda (& Raffaele?) had denied smoking hash or doing drugs on Nov.1, until later in the investigation or when they were interoggated on Nov. 5.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29437038/


Well, at the very least we should NOT be hearing Nodding Edda saying "Amanda's story never changed" any more. In the past two days we've heard PLENTY of evidence demonstrating that both Raffaele and Amanda told conflicting stories that caused them to become suspects early on. They also behaved in ways that drew attention to themselves. So will the Knox family and FOA continue to whine that Knox only became a suspect because, 1. Mignini had an axe to grind and needed to save face, 2. Amanda was an American, 3. Amanda was pretty, 4. The Italian legal system is corrupt and incompetent from top to bottom. Look, everyone should now be able to agree that the Italian police could be considered incompetent clown cops only if they HAD NOT focused on Amanda and Raffaele as suspects.
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Offline Jools


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

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Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:26 pm   Post subject:    

The bloody shoeprint has only been mentioned by Nick Pisa at Sky news, I think he is confusing the two shoe prints that where mentioned in court.
All Italian media are talking about a shoe print found underneath the cushion not attributed to anyone yet.

Then you have the food blogger quoting the ABC article clearly referring to the Nike shoeprint only:

Posted by Candace Dempsey at 2/28/09 6:46 a.m.
"A bloody footprint that was found by investigators in Kercher's room was also the object of much questioning in court today. At the start of the investigation, the footprint was considered to be one of the strongest pieces of evidence against Sollecito, but it was later found to belong to Rudy Guede."

Never the less the Cook quotes from an article that seems to be one her translations does not quote the source but she confuses both shoe prints as being one.

Posted by Candace Dempsey at 2/28/09 6:52 a.m.
"More weak evidence. A bloody shoeprint is attributed to Amanda because it's about her size. Well, the police have her shoes. Why don't they match?

Who could make this stuff up? Even the Kercher lawyer says the police don't knows whose print that is.

Bloodied print found under body

A woman's bloodied shoe print compatible with the size worn by a US student accused of murdering her British flat mate was found under the body, an Italian detective has said."

Posted by Candace Dempsey at 2/28/09 8:07 a.m.
"Major Fireworks. RS & AK speak forcefully. She says police witnesses lied. He says they treated him badly and refused requests for legal help and to suspend the interrogration. Also a battle over whether Amanda was "pressured" to make the statements against Patrick. Her lawyers are arguing that she was. PM & police arguing opposite.

Also: new tactic. If you can't explain something, blame it on Amanda! here, a bloody shoeprint that matches none of her shoes.

Here's a quick translation. The English reporters (and ABC) have professional translators so will be able to offer a better version."

:lol:
Yep, she thinks ABC have professional translators but was the use if a couple of hours later she is still reporting to her readers whatever.

Anyway what is clear is that two shoe prints were talk about in court, one we know is the bloody Nike print, the other is a woman's shoe size found underneath the pillow and don't believe this one was bloodied at least not reported by Italian press. I can only find Nick Pisa and the Cook mentioning the blood.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:26 pm   Post subject:    

OT)))

Note for Goofy: Though I feel truly flattered whenever I see one of your emails flood my inbox, sadly they are immediately recognized as junk mail by my system and placed in my junk mail file, along with ads for penile enhancement and inflatable dolls. I just wanted to reassure you that this collaborative filtering process is really effective, and your emails end up right where they belong - unopened and unread.

This reminds me of a story told by Voltaire (you can wiki him, Goofy). He often received angry letters from raving lunatics and generally did not bother to reply. But once, he wrote this pithy response:

Dear Sir:
I am sitting on the smallest seat in the smallest room (le petit coin - you can look that up too, Goofball) of the house. Your letter is before me. Soon it will be behind me. :lol:

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Offline Tara


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Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

Posts: 1010

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:39 pm   Post subject: Queen Microsoft Multi-tasker has spoken!   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Bolint wrote:

Quote:
DLW wrote:
"An article from MSNBC and a short video of a news brief on TV"

It's good, it says that it was Amanda who refused the lawyer's help during interrogation.

Also, the anchor seems to be surprised by the cartwheels thereby destroying what I've just started to believe, based on comments in Candace's blog, that cartwheels are so common in Seattle that people prefer them to cars.



I can see the West Seattle bridge from my troll station at Luna Park and let me tell you this: from Monday through Friday, during the 5-7 pm rush hour, it is just one continuous line of cartwheels as far as the eye can see. Occasionally, you see someone doing the splits too; but only when traffic is at a standstill. I have heard people do this to relieve tension. That is probably because here in Seattle we drink way too much Starbuck' coffee and not nearly enough chamomile tea.


I absolutely agree with Skep's comment above. In fact, while I was leaving the fundraiser at Salty's, I saw Candace Dempsey and her husband "cartwheeling" out to their squad car with the cop escort close behind. Since she adamently states we saw her "emerge" from said squad car, she must have left in said squad car, right? And of course while I was peeking at little girls in the ladies room, I was doing this all while doing my own cartwheels and in fact, cartwheeled out the door to the patio where I crept cartwheeled while snapping photos.

We must always believe Candace, as she is the absolute authority on "multi-tasking". Of course! That's what Amanda Knox was doing at the police station...MULTI-TASKING like a "Microsoftie"!!

The queen of authority wrote:

Quote:
#265069Posted by Candace Dempsey at 2/28/09 9:21 a.m.

Okay, I live in Seattle. My husband was just talking to me WHILE DOING ATHLETIC STRETCHES. He is a runner. Neither of us thought this was strange until today. He did it without thinking. We are both busy. We need to get on with our day. Here people often multi-task (a Microsoftie word).
He was also not surprised that somebody would want to stretch after many long boring hours at the police station. He said that would be only natural
.
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Offline Ferret


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Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:21 am

Posts: 101

Location: Hidden Hills, CA

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:41 pm   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
More interesting analysis from Button (eclectchap.blogspot.com):

Quote:
Saturday, February 28
Mez: FEM FOOTPRINT (2#) -
Meredith Kercher Murder -



What was it that Meredith seemed to have, that Amanda Knox did not have? Perhaps, a father.

Kurt Knox may be paying a big price now for leaving his first family. Amanda may have felt abandoned. She certainly has gotten his attention now.

The trial continues; there may be more later.


That statement is incredibly unfair to Curt Knox. Amanda was an adult, she is responsible for her actions. Whatever her behavior stems from her upbringing or whatever father issues Amanda has developed, There is no way to find a empirical link that Curt Knox Edda's actions are directly blame to Amanda's criminal actions.

The statement is basically saying that if parents divorce while their children are young, the child will end up as a criminal. Divorce is part of the social fabric, it can cause much problems for the development of children, but so for parents staying together in a marriage for the children's sake, but the parents can't stand each other.

Whatever are Amanda's behavior problems, whether they are genetic or from her upbringing, it is very unfair to state something that a parent's decision to leave a marriage 19-20 years in the past has a direct link to an adult's conscious choice.

Curt Knox can be criticize for many things he has stated in the press, but to make a snide remark as the above quote is just mean and petty.
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Offline Jools


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Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:47 pm   Post subject: Not a good day for Goofy & Co   

Skep,

Here a Voltaire quote for Goofy the Vulgar.

"To succeed in the world it is not enough to be stupid, you must also be well-mannered"

I guess it hasn't been a good day for the Goofy's today, their precious didn't mentioned in her spontaneous today that she was hit by the police.


BTW I love your Botero avatar.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:49 pm   Post subject:    

"Major Fireworks. RS & AK speak forcefully."

What does that mean?

Instead of "I don't remember" from now on they say: 'I f.cking don't remember"?
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 9:06 pm   Post subject:    

Ferret wrote:

Quote:
That statement is incredibly unfair to Curt Knox. Amanda was an adult, she is responsible for her actions. Whatever her behavior stems from her upbringing or whatever father issues Amanda has developed, There is no way to find a empirical link that Curt Knox Edda's actions are directly blame to Amanda's criminal actions.

The statement is basically saying that if parents divorce while their children are young, the child will end up as a criminal. Divorce is part of the social fabric, it can cause much problems for the development of children, but so for parents staying together in a marriage for the children's sake, but the parents can't stand each other.

Whatever are Amanda's behavior problems, whether they are genetic or from her upbringing, it is very unfair to state something that a parent's decision to leave a marriage 19-20 years in the past has a direct link to an adult's conscious choice.

Curt Knox can be criticize for many things he has stated in the press, but to make a snide remark as the above quote is just mean and petty.


I think you may be over-interpreting the statement. From other things I have read by Button, I would say she does not disapprove of divorce and would agree with your statement that staying together for the sake of the kids can be a huge mistake. In fact, she was highly critical of the PR decision to pass Curt and Edda off as a "couple" in the media. She said at the time that it would be more honest to treat viewers like adults who understand and accept blended families.

Here, I think her emphasis is on how Amanda Knox might have felt, deep down in her psyche, as a child of one, and how those feelings, if not examined and put into perspective, can have repercussions later in life. I bet she would say the same of an adult who realized on some level as a child that her parents hated one another and were together only for her sake.

Personally, I have always been on the side of those who believe that divorce is a natural part of modern life. As my ex-father-in-law said: "Le divorce n'est pas pour les chiens." (Divorce isn't for dogs.) What he meant by that, believe it or not, was that if a marriage ain't working, then divorce is a perfectly legitimate option.

Most of our heated discussions here have had to do with the responsibility borne by parents in cases like this. My view is that psychologists help adults deal with their past as children so that this past does not cripple them in the here and now by preventing them from having healthy relationships. I have no way of knowing or judging the childhood of Amanda Knox or anyone else but me. I don't believe that what happened is their fault. The way they have chosen to respond to the situation - by waging a high-cost media campaign that has assumed vast proportions - is, however, fair game.

One of the things I like about Button is that she thinks aloud and likes to try things on that others won't touch. But she always remains tentative, skeptical, balanced and very professional in her assessment of the media.

P.S. For the record, although a woman I actually believe that men usually get the raw end of a divorce situation when children are involved. Many women use their natural advantage as mothers to manipulate their children. I don't want to get into a discussion about that here, though. It always brings the house down. Let's just say that every situation is different, and we have no idea what caused Edda and Curt to split up when Amanda was a year old and Deanna not yet born. I feel like it is not anyone's business but theirs.

_________________
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Last edited by Skeptical Bystander on Sat Feb 28, 2009 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Tara


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Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 9:13 pm   Post subject: Integrity   

Just in case my comment above is taken seriously, let me get this out for the record. The editor of the PI blogs has allowed a comment full of lies and accusations to stand - the comment was made by none other than Candace Dempsey. I am embarassed for Seattle and the PI to condone this behavior on their blogs. I sent an email to Don Smith requesting the comment be deleted and was told the comment would stand, as it did not violate the PI's terms of service (TOS). To me this says that Candace Dempsey can say anything she pleases to "fit" her thoughts and opinions...even if it means telling lies - and the PI allows it. From now on, I will trust nothing that Candace Dempsey says. My comment above is a PARODY about this comment, and here is the correspondence for the record:

Candace Dempsey wrote - (page 9):
Quote:
Posted by Candace Dempsey at 2/19/09 7:59 p.m.

Okay, I promised not to discuss the stupidities said about me elsewhere, but sometimes I cannot resist.

The new rumor is that I have LIED about what year I got my master's degree in journalism. So I will now correct the record.

Yes, I did graduate in 1977, NOT 1997. Yes, there was a typo on my Linked In site that said 1997. Yes, I have now fixed it.

Why the year I got the master's degree would be of interest to anybody but me is a matter of mystery. Imagine an entire message board (PMF) where people are so devoid of a life that they would take the trouble to surf the Internet endlessly, looking for photos and "facts" about me.

These are the same "people" who believed they saw me emerge from a police car at the Amanda Knox fundraiser with my "husband and sister in tow." They will always be remembered for floating that bogus story, for creeping around in the dark, taking photos through the windows. For peeking at Amanda's little sisters in the ladies' room.

As I have said many times: You could not make this stuff up.


AND my email exchange with the Seattle PI:


Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 9:02 PM
To: Smith, Don
Cc: Drosendahl, Glenn
Subject: Comment260648




Dear Mr. Smith:

Candace Dempsey has again posted libelous comments on her blog dedicated to the Meredith Kercher murder.

I see that the comment #260648 posted 2/19/2009 has been allowed to stand on her blog.

I am one of the people Candace is referring to in her libelous post, so let me clarify her false accusations and lies:

1) I never said that I saw Candace Dempsey, her husband and her sister emerge from a police car.

2) I never crept around in the dark and took photos.

3) I was never peeking at Amanda Knox's little sisters in the Salty's ladies room.

I was at Salty's because it's a public place, and I was visiting friends in the area. I observed the media presence at the fundraiser, and I did happen to see Candace Dempsey - all from the comfort of where I was sitting in the establishment. It was hard to miss the attendees as they came in through the front entrance and filed down the stairs.

As far as Candace Dempsey's comment "These people will always be remembered as floating bogus stories...", I really hope Candace is not going to "assist" people in remembering these false incidents by inserting these LIES into her book. If she does, I guess we'll have another issue on our hands.

I'd really like to nip this in the bud before I get more infuriated and distraught. These accusations are very serious.

I am requesting you delete Comment #260648 immediately, and would appreciate an email letting me know when it's done.

Since you have deleted a similar comment she made the other day where Candace Dempsey posted the same lies (plus a couple more; you can view my comments regarding that particular post of hers at the Perugia Murder File Forum). I am quite distressed that you allowed this new comment to stay up for over 24 hours now. In Candace's prior deleted post about these lies, she stated that she had given the names of her "stalkers" to HER local police. I don't know how she would have my real name, so I would imagine she would use the name I post under at the pro-justice sites; my moniker is "Tara". This is concerning because this comes across as a threat, and I'm considering consulting my attorney for further clarification. It is for this very reason, that I am reluctant to give you my real name, so you can call me Tara for now.

Mr. Smith, per your own recommendation on another PI blog about blogging, I visited this site to read up on the legalities of blogging:

http://www.eff.org/issues/bloggers/lega ... defamation

Perhaps Candace should take another look at this page. I found it fascinating indeed. You claim this site is a "must read" for all bloggers, so I imagine it's a requirement in order to blog at the PI.

Here is where I found your reference:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/forum/boa ... cid=125677


Another excellent site that I'm sure you're familiar with is the Code of Ethics on the Society for Professional Journalists webpage here:

http://www.spj.org/ethicscode.asp

and the expanded explanation here:

http://www.spj.org/ethicsfaq.asp

Thank you for your consideration. I'll look forward to your prompt reply confirming deletion of Candace Dempsey's libelous post.

Sincerely,

Tara
Perugia Murder File
http://perugiamurderfile.freeforums.org ... er-f1.html

True Justice for Meredith Kercher
http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php



Subject: RE: Comment260648
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 16:58:51 -0600
From: GlennDrosendahl@seattlepi.com
To: **********.com
CC: DonSmith@seattlepi.com


Dear Tara: I have reviewed that comment and discussed it with Don Smith. We are taking no further action because it does not violate our terms of service.

Glenn Drosendahl
Reader Representative
Seattle Post-Intelligencer
(206) 448-8007
readerrep@seattlepi.com


Sent: Tue 2/24/09 8:08 AM
To: Glenn Drosendahl (glenndrosendahl@seattlepi.com)
Cc: Don Smith (donsmith@seattlepi.com)



Dear Mr. Drosendahl and Mr. Smith:

Granted, I am extremely disappointed by your decision, but you have clarified the Seattle PI's position about Candace Dempsey's PI hosted blog and your management of it.

I see that you condone untrue accusations and false statements by this so called "award winning journalist" and I feel it's important as an investigative journalist myself to publish your stance.

I find it unethical and surprising that a reputable news source such as the Seattle Post Intelligencer would support such behavior.

For the record again, let me state:

1) At the Knox fundraiser I saw Candace Dempsey INSIDE the establishment and a Mercer Island Police car OUSIDE the establishment.

2) I was not creeping around outside in the dark taking photographs.

3) I was not peeking at little girls in the ladies room.

I cannot tolerate these lies and will proceed to clear up this matter in my own way, since you will not.

Thank you for getting back to me.

Tara
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Offline Jools


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 9:16 pm   Post subject:    

The FOAK's considered AK statement as being forcefully spoken. Surely the part where she was hit on the head by a police woman should have been there to make it forcefully.

"Quello che ho sentito non è vero" "Sono stata trattata da persona solo dopo che ho fatto dichiarazioni"

When Napoleoni was asked today if Sollecito was prevented from calling his father her answer was "No"

So, not a good day for these liars.
http://unionesarda.ilsole24ore.com/Arti ... olo/108533
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 9:18 pm   Post subject:    

Jools wrote:

Quote:
Skep,

Here a Voltaire quote for Goofy the Vulgar.

"To succeed in the world it is not enough to be stupid, you must also be well-mannered"

I guess it hasn't been a good day for the Goofy's today, their precious didn't mention in her spontaneous today that she was hit by the police.


BTW I love your Botero avatar.


Haha, I guess that explains Goofy's limited success so far. :lol:

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 9:28 pm   Post subject: Pants on fire! Pants on fire!   

Tara wrote:

Quote:
Dear Mr. Drosendahl and Mr. Smith:

Granted, I am extremely disappointed by your decision, but you have clarified the Seattle PI's position about Candace Dempsey's PI hosted blog and your management of it.

I see that you condone untrue accusations and false statements by this so called "award winning journalist" and I feel it's important as an investigative journalist myself to publish your stance.

I find it unethical and surprising that a reputable news source such as the Seattle Post Intelligencer would support such behavior.


The last sixty-day period of the Seattle PI comes to an end on March 9, 2009. My guess is that Glenn and Don are counting the days until they will no longer have to deal with problems arising from Candace's Dempsey's miserable and dishonest handling of her blog.

I would also guess that since Candace does not name the people she is libelling, her weary handlers decided it was easier to say no to you than to have to deal with her. I bet she gets hysterical and teary on command. Who would want that in their face?

As for her story about the CV revisions, nobody believes her nonsense. But just in case, thank goodness for saved screen shots and dated pdf files of them.

_________________
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Offline Tara


User avatar


Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

Posts: 1010

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 9:41 pm   Post subject: Re: Pants on fire! Pants on fire!   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Tara wrote:

Quote:
Dear Mr. Drosendahl and Mr. Smith:

Granted, I am extremely disappointed by your decision, but you have clarified the Seattle PI's position about Candace Dempsey's PI hosted blog and your management of it.

I see that you condone untrue accusations and false statements by this so called "award winning journalist" and I feel it's important as an investigative journalist myself to publish your stance.

I find it unethical and surprising that a reputable news source such as the Seattle Post Intelligencer would support such behavior.


The last sixty-day period of the Seattle PI comes to an end on March 9, 2009. My guess is that Glenn and Don are counting the days until they will no longer have to deal with problems arising from Candace's Dempsey's miserable and dishonest handling of her blog.

I would also guess that since Candace does not name the people she is libelling, her weary handlers decided it was easier to say no to you than to have to deal with her. I bet she gets hysterical and teary on command. Who would want that in their face?

As for her story about the CV revisions, nobody believes her nonsense. But just in case, thank goodness for saved screen shots and dated pdf files of them.


Skep,

You'd think from this comment by Candace Dempsey, that the Seattle PI is reserving a "special online spot" just for her so she can continue her joke of a blog. Let's hope that whoever edits her blog has the necessary "journalism ethics" to to rein in questionable comments.

But, then again I don't believe a word Candace Dempsey says anymore...

Dempsey "claims":
Quote:
Posted by Candace Dempsey at 2/26/09 2:01 p.m.

Last night the PI threw a bash for all the citizen bloggers on this site, hoping to keep them on after the newspaper goes down (no one knows the exact day). Anyway, it really fun and we loved the free ribs and chicken wings at Buckleys on Queen Anne. Happy to say the PI editors are reaffirmed their support of my blog. Some even hugged me.
I also met a lot of fun people who blog for the PI and wish I had time to read all their stuff each day
.
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Offline nicki

Forensics Moderator


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:27 am

Posts: 847

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 9:51 pm   Post subject: Re: Will not end in parity?   

Jools wrote:
Catnip or any translators, could you please translate this article from Il Messaggero if you think is relevant and worth it.
Thanks. :lol:

"Comunque vada non finirà in parità"

Sabato 28 Febbraio 2009
di GIUSEPPE CAFORIO

IL processo Meredith secondo la previsione del nostro codice di procedura penale riformato è entrato nel vivo con quella fase dibattimentale mutuata dal processo anglosassone nota con il nome di cross-examination. Con tale termine si indica l’esame incrociato da parte dell’accusa e della difesa con il coordinamento da parte dell’organo giudicante, finalizzato all’acquisizione delle prove testimoniali. In altri termini, accusa e difesa cercano, interrogando i testi, di sostenere le proprie argomentazioni, confortandole con le testimonianze di chi per varie ragioni ha avuto cognizioni dei fatti di causa. La cross-examination sostanzialmente nel nostro ordinamento ha quattro fasi: l’esame diretto della parte che ha chiesto la testimonianza, il controesame effettuato dall’altra parte che non ha richiesto quel test, il riesame costituente in nuove domande fatte dalla parte che ha richiesto il test ed infine l’interrogatorio da parte del giudice. Nell’udienza di ieri sono stati ascoltati i dirigenti della polizia giudiziaria che hanno effettuato le indagini e che quindi sono stati chiamati a rendere testionianza dalla Procura.
Mentre l’esame diretto tutto sommato è andato spedito, in sede di controesame le difese hanno fatto ricorso a tutte le tecniche dell’interrogatorio utili ad ingenerare debolezze alle argomentazioni dell’accusa. Uno dei principi cardine in materia di acquisizione delle prove testimoniali è data dal libero apprezzamento che l’organo giudicante deve fare in relazione alla credibilità del teste. Se il teste, ovviamente stuzzicato, si lascia andare a giudizi personali, sensazioni e opinioni indebolisce fortemente la propria credibilità. Il nostro codice penale prevede che il teste debba semplicemente riferire ciò di cui ha avuto cognizione diretta, astenendosi da ogni valutazione. Nell’interrogatorio di coloro che hanno effettuato le indagini reiteratamente sono emerse valutazioni personali che, se da un lato dimostravano il coinvolgimento emotivo nella vicenda Kercher, dall’altro hanno costretto più volte il presidente del collegio ad intervenire per riportare la testimonianza nell’alveo della previsione normativa.
Occorre dare atto alle difese che, ricorrendo a domande suggestive sono riuscite a provocare un pathos espositivo negli investigatori che certamente non ha influito positivamente ai fini delle posizioni dell’accusa. Occorre però dare il giusto peso a quelle che si possono definire schermaglie dialettiche nell’abito del dibattimento processuale, in quanto nella sostanza le prove testimoniali di ieri non hanno aggiunto o tolto alcunché alla dinamica processuale. Ciò significa che le posizioni dell’accusa e della difesa sono uscite sostanzialemente intatte sotto il profilo del sostegno alle proprie tesi. Quello cui stiamo assistendo rimane un processo indiziario dove difficilmente le prove testimoniali potranno aggiungere o togliere qualcosa al quadro complessivo, demandando quindi il difficile compito di rimettere insieme il puzzle degli indizi, a favore e contro, all’organo giudicante. Ci troviamo quindi di fronte al più classico dei processi indiziari dove a seconda da dove si parte si può giungere con argomentazioni geometriche e simmetriche a conclusioni diametralmente opposte. Forse l’ultima cosa che si possa escludere fin da adesso sono soluzioni mediane.
Docente di scienze
dell’investigazione


Hola Jools,

thanks for provìding the link.Very briefly, it speaks about the cross examination procedures, that have been introduced with the recent reform.The article explains the technicalities of cross-examination, and stresses that defense 's questionning techniques have succeeded in provoking emotional responses from the witnesses-that is not acceptable by the Italian procedure, since witnesses are only supposed to report on facts, left aside any personal judgment.The article also states that investigators are very much involved and concerned about finding the truth-and their depositions have not added nor taken anything away -so basically nobody has scored the game so far. Guess we'll have to see what comes next.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 9:57 pm   Post subject: I would be in Pascal's Corner of Hell   

Tara, since you asked:
Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point; on le sait en mille choses.

This was written by Blaise Pascal and is from his argument for the reasonableness of religious faith. Look up Pascal's Wager and you'll see what his argument is.

In fact, Pascal offers an argument intended to prove that it is a better bet to believe in God than to not believe. But this sentence shows me that what he really believes is that religious faith is not something you can justify through rational arguments for the existence of God.

Not that I share the argument. But I like this sentence because it argues that logic and reason do not and cannot explain the whole of human behavior and what motivates it.

It would translate roughly as: The heart has its reasons that reason knows noting about whatsoever; we know this from (see this in) a thousand things.

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Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point; on le sait en mille choses.
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Offline Bess


Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:41 pm

Posts: 69

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 10:05 pm   Post subject:    

Does anyone know the date of the next court session? Is it next Friday, or two weeks from now? Thanks.
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