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VI. MAIN DISCUSSION, Jan 1 - Feb 28, 09

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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:33 am   Post subject:    

Quote:
Catnip quotes a report:
"The prosecution scenario puts faith in the witness testimony of the two agents, who had never seen Raffaele make a call "


So if this report is credible than it was only a rumour that they saw him calling.

The call was made at 12:54:xx
It lasted about 50 seconds.
It was thus 12:55:xx when he finished
Amanda says in the email "while we were waiting, two ununiformed police investigaters came to our house".
How long were they waiting?
One minute? :D
In this case the policemen arrived at 12:56:xx.

How fast could the policemen explain why they are here?
How fast could the look around tha house?
And then cama Altieri and Zaroli
They also looked around, discussed the phones, discussed with Amanda that Meredith's door was regulalrly locked, etc.
And then came Filomena and Paola beforre 13:00.
A police phone call (at about 13:00, no axact time have appeared so far) from the cottage reporting that Filomena arrived fixes the other end of this dense time interval.

There is no way that all these could have happened in 3-4 minutes.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:36 am   Post subject:    

(Sorry for the typos)
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:44 am   Post subject:    

Quote:
Giustizia wrote:
"One thing is certain. Cell phones have become the one of the best crime-solving tools. "


Mainly because call lists provide exact and reliable times and thus reduce the chance to change the order of events.
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Offline Catnip


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Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:08 am

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Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 12:53 pm   Post subject:    

The phone call dance:

Fixed point (relative time):
- Amanda's voice is on the second call
- therefore she and Raffaele were next to each other

- Amanda was outside when postal police arrive


Floating points:
When were Amanda and Raffaele together when the others were there?
- Amanda was inside, in the kitchen, when the others were breaking down the door
- before, she was telling people Meredith usually locks her door (contradicted immediately by Filomena)
- ?told the boys the same thing (presumably before Filomena arrives)
- others notice Amanda and Raffaele "apart", keeping to themselves (when? where? how long?)
- Battistelli was shown the broken window (or looked at it without A&R): told A&R he did not believe there was a burglary

Inference:
- no girls and boys voices overheard on seoond phone call (I haven't heard the first call)
- therefore, either
(a) A&R outside, away from the others, or
(b) call made before the others arrive, or
(c) the others had arrived and were (i) all inside (ii) looking at the blood, (iii) very quiet and calm, (iv) having a cup of tea in the lounge room discussing Meredith's possible whereabouts, e.g, gone shopping (v) and postal police came back from stroll admiring the scenery (not really! :) ) (vi) no one is talking to, or near, Amanda and Raffaele during the phone call (very polite)

Likelihood:
- too busy, too much activity after Filomena arrives
- time taken to (i) listen to postal police ask first question about Filomena's phone number, routine enquiry (ii) request postal police to inspect house for signs of burglary (iii) postal police (both?) go inside and look (iv) listen to postal police say "Not a real burglary" = already 3-4 minutes at least (?12:40)
- boys arrive, do the inspection as well; maybe discuss with postal police: more minutes (?12:45)

Scenario:
- Phone calls made after boys arrive, who keep postal police occupied inside - ?and maybe before girls arrive
- Phone calls probably made outside


Possibility:
- re statement of when call was made: does intention to phone sister in carabinieri for advice count as emergency call? (she advises to call 112)
or
- could postal police "arriival" actually be the time of "official" identification to main occupant (Filomena)? Anything before that moment is just "two guys off the street, not the police". -- far-fetched, stretched meaning, but consistent with interpretation methodology used by RS in other matters (as in, ":: variable not initialised; checksum error ::")
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:02 pm   Post subject:    

Quote:
Catnip wrote:
When were Amanda and Raffaele together when the others were there?


Paola Grande said:

Quote:
"'We arrived just before 1pm and when we entered the house we met Luca Alteri and Marco with a man that we later discovered worked for the postal police and who was there with his colleague. Amanda and Raffaele were in Amanda's room because at a certain point they came out into the corridor and we introduced ourselves."
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:27 pm   Post subject:    

It would be good to know the time when Altieri and Zaroli arrived.
Or at least, how long they estimate the time between their arrival and Filomena's arrival.
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Offline Lancelotti


Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:09 pm

Posts: 378

PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:27 pm   Post subject:    

But Amanda called Filomena before the postal police arrived. Why would she do that if the theory is that they were busy cleaning the place or whatever and that they didn't have any intention to call the police?
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:53 pm   Post subject:    

Quote:
Lancelotti wrote:
"But Amanda called Filomena before the postal police arrived. Why would she do that if the theory is that they were busy cleaning the place or whatever and that they didn't have any intention to call the police? "


It's a question that has been asked a number of times.
I think that at that time they finished with the basic clean-up, it would have been risky to continue anyway, Filomena could have dropped in anytime, without calling.

No one knows what they wanted (if they wanted something) with that call.

So far we know, however, that Amanda called only once Filomena (at 12:08) and at that time didn't tell her that her room is ransacked.
Only in Filomena's 12:34 third call did she tell her.

Also, at 12:46 Amanda calls her mother.

Why on earth would she wake her up when in her version at that time she didn't know anything tragic?
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Offline Principessa Etrusca


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Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:15 am

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Location: London

PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 2:37 pm   Post subject:    

Lancelotti wrote:
But Amanda called Filomena before the postal police arrived. Why would she do that if the theory is that they were busy cleaning the place or whatever and that they didn't have any intention to call the police?


This is a good point, but there may be different reasons WHY they called Filomena.
According to Amanda it was Raffaele who suggested to her to make the call. Supposing for a moment they were innocent, Raffaele might have thought that with all the evidence of intrusion and traces of blood at the cottage, as well as Meredith who should have been at home, not accounted for, Amanda should contact Filomena. The call would have been made to genuinely alert her.

Supposing that Raffaele was not involved in the crime/clean-up, but Amanda was (without his knowledge), again, calling Filomena would have seemed to him a sensibible thing to do and Amanda could not have refused his suggestion.

Finally, supposing they were both involved in the crime/clean-up, Raffaele thought there was no more time for procrastination and that they should contact Filomena position themselves as people who raised the alarm and thus deflect suspicion.

I don't think that Amanda's call to Filomena is a proof of either their innocence or their guilt.
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Offline Lancelotti


Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:09 pm

Posts: 378

PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:36 pm   Post subject:    

I don't know....I think their behaviour is very strange for guilty people. Instead of all those conflicting and contradictary statements and not really remembering what they did, taking a shower and so on, why didn't they just say they went to bed early, and the next morning they went to the cottage, found blood, a smashed window and called the police. Wouldn't that make more sense?

And what about this mop that they had been carrying back and forth, it must have been examined and I guess no traces of blood were found, otherwise we surely would have heard about it?

Of course their behaviour would also be strange for innocent people. oh well.. ;)
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:51 pm   Post subject:    

Lancelotti wrote:
"And what about this mop that they had been carrying back and forth, it must have been examined and I guess no traces of blood were found, otherwise we surely would have heard about it?"

Clearly, the mop (and probably the bucket) was not where it should have had to be.
So they had to give an explanation why it was not there.
They couldn't say that they had used it in the cottage for any reason.
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Online The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2309

PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:02 pm   Post subject:    

Lancelotti wrote:
But Amanda called Filomena before the postal police arrived. Why would she do that if the theory is that they were busy cleaning the place or whatever and that they didn't have any intention to call the police?


I don't recall reading any theory that stated that Knox and Sollecito were busy cleaning the place when Knox called Filomena. Knox called Filomena to give the impresson that she was concerned about the door being open and the blood in the bathroom in order to deflect attention away from themselves. It's not difficult to understand.

What is highly incriminating is that they lied to the postal police about having already called the police and that they were waiting for them. They hadn't called the police and they clearly were not waiting for them.

The clean up hadn't finished when the police arrived. They had left Knox's lamp in Meredith's room and not cleaned Meredith's and Knox's blood from the basin and bidet in the bathroom. Knox hadn't finished washing Meredith's clothes.

The connection between the cleaning away of the trail of bloody footprints and the fact Knox and Sollecito were found with a bucket and mop is self-explanatory. Knox and Sollecito had cleaned Meredith's room because her blood had been mixed with water.

The clean up and the staging of the break-in are indisputable facts. The only peole who could have carried them out are Knox and Sollecito.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:06 pm   Post subject:    

One thing I don't understand: Jovana Popovic's tetsimony.

Why don't they mention her two visits to Raffale's place finding both of them there (at about 17:50 and araound 20:30-20:40)?
Neither Raffaele nor Amanda mentions her.

Why?
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Offline Lancelotti


Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:09 pm

Posts: 378

PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:30 pm   Post subject:    

The Machine wrote:
The connection between the cleaning away of the trail of bloody footprints and the fact Knox and Sollecito were found with a bucket and mop is self-explanatory. Knox and Sollecito had cleaned Meredith's room because her blood had been mixed with water.


Well, in that case it should be easy to find both of them guilty. If this mop and bucket were indeed used to clean away blood, then traces of blood must have been found in the mop.
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Offline Principessa Etrusca


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Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:15 am

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Location: London

PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:32 pm   Post subject:    

As you have mentioned this witness, there is one thing I have found confusing.


In the timeline, Michael described her as "Jovana Popovic, a Serbian female music student who worked as RS’ cleaner".


I find it extremely strange that one student would employ another as his cleaner.
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Online The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2309

PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:35 pm   Post subject:    

Miss Represented has posted another brilliant piece on her blog:

http://missrepresented.wordpress.com/

Her blog has now become obligatory reading for anyone following the case.
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Online The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2309

PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:42 pm   Post subject:    

Lancelotti wrote:
Well, in that case it should be easy to find both of them guilty. If this mop and bucket were indeed used to clean away blood, then traces of blood must have been found in the mop.


Sollecito and Knox will be found guilty because the evidence against them is formidable.

Knox and Sollecito cleaned the double DNA knife and the bucket and mop. Again, it is not very difficult to understand.

Why do you think Knox and Sollecito lied to the postal police? You seem relucant to discuss any of the damning evidence against Knox and Sollecito.
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Offline Ferret


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Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:21 am

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Location: Hidden Hills, CA

PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:49 pm   Post subject:    

Lancelotti wrote:
But Amanda called Filomena before the postal police arrived. Why would she do that if the theory is that they were busy cleaning the place or whatever and that they didn't have any intention to call the police?


I think it depends how long Raffaele and Amanda were at the house on Nov. 2nd before Amanda called Filomena. Amanda could had called Filomena, when Amanda and Raffaele decided in a panic and anxious that the clean up was overwhelming and it was better off now to set up Amanda and Raffaele's alibi, even though they were making it up as they were going along. Which is one reason why Amanda first phone call was more non chalant about blood in the bathroom, while the second was much more panicky about a break in, when the Postal Police arrived at the house, because they knew the turmoil would erupt when Meredith's body was found.


What will be important that comes out during the trial and the final verdict is the a definitive timeline of the Raffaele and Amanda in the morning of Nov. 2nd, 2007, that is backed up by evidence. If there is CCTV images of Amanda going to the store, or receipts of her buying bleach in the morning of Nov. 2, she is toast.

The clean up was probably much longer in duration than 10:30am to 12:25-12:35, it was that Amanda and Raffaele wasted much time cleaning Amanda's room, trying to clean the bathroom, etc, and leaving Meredith's room for a final sweep down.

If Raffaele's car was outside Amanda's house during the night of Nov. 1st-Nov. 2nd, that is when they tried to clean up Meredith' room at first, and a possibility why Amanda's lamp was in Meredith's room, they were more there to survey their task of hiding the murder. Locking Meredith's door was just a precaution before spending a couple hours at Raffaele's place to organize a plan, or take a nap.

I realize that all evidence like Amanda's telephone call to Filomena at 12:08pm on Nov. 2nd could be interpreted in many ways. However, I would more look at how Amanda and Raffaele were acting when events were starting to be out of their control, rather than they had some sort control of the situation, like right after the murder.

My guess is that they probably started to panic around 12:00pm, when they realized they need a couple more hours of cleaning and preparing their red herring (ie the break in) so they were better off working on their alibi.

The only tenuous pre-trial credibility that Amanda and Raffaele have left, unless proven otherwise during the trial with direct evidence, is their version of the timeline on the morning of Nov. 2nd before Amanda called Filomena.

The time stamps of Amanda and Raffaele's phone being turned on, Raffaele's computer being used, can be interpreted in a couple ways, but if there is some hard evidence of activity by Amanda when the grocery/convenience story opened. The prosecution can throw out all the other direct evidence of Amanda and Raffaele's at the crime scene in their case, and win their case on circumstantial evidence and the holes in Amanda's and Raffaele's defense.


Last edited by Ferret on Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:53 pm   Post subject:    

Bolint wrote:

Quote:
One thing I don't understand: Jovana Popovic's tetsimony.

Why don't they mention her two visits to Raffale's place finding both of them there (at about 17:50 and araound 20:30-20:40)?
Neither Raffaele nor Amanda mentions her.

Why?


Good question!

Welcome to Lancelotti. With regard to these questions about when and where Knox was when she first called Filomena, I suggest your read this thread from the start. We have had interesting discussions about this, including possible reasons for the call. For one thing, Knox told Filomena she was going to call Meredith and then go back and fetch Raffaele. Why not simply call Raffaele? As for Raffaele, he says he was with Amanda when she called Filomena and the others, implying that this call was made from his place. It is possible Knox called Filomena to get some idea of when she would be home. Maybe the ideal plan was for Filomena to make the discovery. Etc and so on. Lots of possibilities, not many clear facts.
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Offline Jools


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

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Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:01 pm   Post subject: The penny dropped!   

Hi All,

According to the Cook’s Esoteric Advisor Wilkens, PM Mignini runs an ‘Anti-Amanda’ website and believes this is another problem. :lol:

Does anybody know the link to FOM site?

Posted by Harry R. Wilkens at 2/22/09 8:21 a.m.
“Another problem: That Anti-Amanda website is obviously run by Public Prosecutor Mignini, even if he uses members and friends of his family as front. This is illegal, but the Italian Justice doesn't care. 
I did some analysis about this situation and compared all those details given on their site. And now they even run an Internet poll station giving bogus statistics about Amanda's guilt and innocence. This is quite disgusting. But, obviously, those slanderers are highly protected.”

c-))
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:04 pm   Post subject:    

"I find it extremely strange that one student would employ another as his cleaner. "

There was big confusion about this witness.
At some point a certain Jovanovic witness also appeared in the news who was a man (per Frank).
Now there is no more talk about such witness.
Some reports stated that Jovanovic or Popovic was the cleaner/housekeper ("colf" in Italian) but this line also has died.

What remained is Jovana Popovic, a student, who before and after her violin lesson on Nov 1 was at RS's house for asking and later cancelling a lift to the station for some luggage.
She was heared by the police on Nov 12, 2007.
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Offline Lancelotti


Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:09 pm

Posts: 378

PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:25 pm   Post subject:    

The Machine wrote:

Knox and Sollecito cleaned the double DNA knife and the bucket and mop. Again, it is not very difficult to understand.

Why do you think Knox and Sollecito lied to the postal police? You seem relucant to discuss any of the damning evidence against Knox and Sollecito.


If I seem reluctant to discuss any of the damning evidence it must be because I am still looking for damning evidence ;) I haven't made my mind up yet, sorry.

So they cleaned the murder weapon and were successful in removing all the blood, which must have been quite a task. Well done! But then, oh no, they leave what...Amanda's fingerprints and what could be skin cells (?) from the victim on the blade? How on earth did they manage that? :shock:
And where was this knife found? In his apartment? Silly boy, didn't think about throwing it away I guess.


I better go and read the thread from the beginning, there must me an explanation somewhere...
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Online The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:37 pm   Post subject:    

Lancelotti wrote:
If I seem reluctant to discuss any of the damning evidence it must be because I am still looking for damning evidence ;) I haven't made my mind up yet, sorry.

So they cleaned the murder weapon and were successful in removing all the blood, which must have been quite a task. Well done! But then, oh no, they leave what...Amanda's fingerprints and what could be skin cells (?) from the victim on the blade? How on earth did they manage that? :shock:
And where was this knife found? In his apartment? Silly boy, didn't think about throwing it away I guess.


Hi Lancelotti,

I don't think removing blood from a knife is a particulary strenuous task. It wasn't Knox's fingerprints on the knife handle, it was her DNA. Meredith's DNA was stuck in a groove on the blade of the knife, which is why it wasn't removed. Knox and Sollecito didn't throw away the knife because they thought that cleaning it would remove all traces of Meredith.

I highly recommend Nicki's and Kermit's powerpoint presentations. They will help you understand the prosecution's case.
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Offline Giustizia


Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:13 pm

Posts: 113

Location: New York City

PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:38 pm   Post subject:    

bolint wrote:
Giustizia wrote: "One thing is certain. Cell phones have become the one of the best crime-solving tools. " Mainly because call lists provide exact and reliable times and thus reduce the chance to change the order of events.


Well, not only that! Cell phones form the cornerstone of sleuthing in this case for any number of reasons, and both the prosecutor and defense are using cell phone logs, time stamps, SMS messages, and even a conversation between one of the postal police and the suspects (I'm not clear on this yet, but he put two phones down on the kitchen table and only one of them was Meredith's. Then he seems to have elicited a response from AK that would indicate she blundered by acknowledging more about the robbery of the phones than she "should" have up to that point) as key litigation points.

A suspect's location can be triangulated - witness the fact that PL's cell phone signal was captured on November 1 at 20:38 in the area of the apartment on the evening of November 1 [see Meredith Kercher murder: why the timings are critical and Kermit's PPP #3: Perugia Murder Possible Sequence of Events (item #18)]. Assuming that no one else had his phone, the man was walking on the street. Instead, that fact was overemphasized to suggest that PL was part of the crime by placing him nearby - not unusual at all, especially given how relatively small and compact the town of Perugia is.

Then there are phone logs - both incoming and outgoing. And text messages which automatically save your conversations and must be deleted if you don't want anyone to read them (iPhone, for example, has this feature).

And in this case in particular, cell phones have come into play in a variety of ways - e.g., the statement by AK and RS that they turned their phones off at November 1 and didn't turn them back on until the next morning, two stolen cell phones tossed in Elisabetta Lana's garden, Meredith's cell phone ringing in that garden early on the morning of November 2, spooking her...and don't forget, the authorities bugged every phone call placed and received by AK and RS after they were determined to be suspects (Amanda is reported to have said to Raffaele "I can't keep this up.").

I should create a document myself that deals only with the role that cell phones have played in this case. It would be an invaluable resource for our discussion - not the very least is which it establishes a timeframe for everyone's whereabouts and actions throughout.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:43 pm   Post subject:    

Ferret wrote:
"I realize that all evidence like Amanda's telephone call to Filomena at 12:08pm on Nov. 2nd could be interpreted in many ways."

One way is that they did not want to leave the house. In daylight someone could have seen them and that would have been very difficult to explain.
On the other hand it was not good to stay a long time in the house either, because that also would have been difficult to explain.
So they decided to start the "discovery phase" by calling Filomena.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:50 pm   Post subject:    

" e.g., the statement by AK and RS that they turned their phones off at November 1 and didn't turn them back on until the next morning"

of which I didn't see a proof yet, only claims.
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Online The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:09 pm   Post subject:    

bolint wrote:
" e.g., the statement by AK and RS that they turned their phones off at November 1 and didn't turn them back on until the next morning"

of which I didn't see a proof yet, only claims.


Hi Bolint,

This is from Claudia Matteini's official report:

Raffaele Sollecito, bored with the same old evenings, and wanting to experience extreme sensations, intense sexual relations which break up the monotony of everyday life, went out with Amanda and met Lumumba at Piazza Grimana at 9pm. They went together to the apartment on via della Pergola 7, to which only Amanda had the key. It was roughly at this time that both Sollecito and Knox switched off their mobile phones until the following morning.

The Italian Supreme Court:

The phone traffic of both your cellphone and Raffaele's stopped at 20.40. Raffaele said he spent the night sleeping, but his computer and cellphone were turned on again at dawn on 2 November.

It is certain, however, that you interacted with your computer at 5.32 the next morning, and that at about the same time you turned your cellphone on
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:20 pm   Post subject:    

I know them, they are what I called "only claims".

A minimal "proof" would be something like
- "at 20:39 RS switched off his phone"
- or "It has been determined that his phone was turned off from xx:xx to yy:yy"

Technically they are also only claims, but I would accept them for proof until they are refuted.

But no such claims are known.
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Offline Giustizia


Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:13 pm

Posts: 113

Location: New York City

PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:22 pm   Post subject:    

Timing is everything, especially w/respect to cell phones.

According to True Justice, Judge Micheli, in rejecting the lone-wolf theory in his 106-page report, made the following observations:

"He notes Raffaele’s apparent lies about the time he made the 112 phone calls. He dismisses Raffaele’s defense claim that the disposal of Meredith’s phones didn’t allow time for Raffaele to get to the cottage after watching his film, kill Meredith, and then dispose of the phones in Via Sperandio before the aborted call to Meredith’s bank. He noted that the cell [transmission tower] which picked up the brief 22:13 call to Meredith’s bank also picked up most of Meredith’s calls home.

He asked whether it was possible for anybody to believe that each time Meredith wanted to phone home, she walked down to Via Sperandio to make the call. He notes that the police found Amanda and Raffaele’s behaviour suspicious almost straight away."

And according to Candace Dempsey's timeline (not the most up-to-date, given what we now know and the fact that it was published on October 27, 2008, but it's not the timing that she attributes, but rather the legal maneuvering that is germane): "Someone makes a call on Meredith's cellphone to her bank in the UK. It doesn't go through because the caller didn't punch the proper area code for London. The prosecution is sparring with Raffaele's defense team over whether that call came from Meredith's house or from the location where the phone was eventually found--an elderly neighbor's garden. If the latter, then Meredith was most probably already dead."

Two questions come to mind immediately.
1) If I don't dial the correct area code for /any/ phone number, then how would someone know what the /correct/ number was, if days later you can't ask me who I was trying to reach since I'm dead? For instance, if the correct number is (212) 555-1212 for my ATM, but I mistakenly dial (202) 555-1212 and get - what, a coffee shop, a residence, an auto repair shop in Washington, DC instead of my bank in NYC? - how would anyone know who I was trying to reach?!

I'll attempt to answer the question, but if anyone else can clarify please do. I'm guessing that the police looked at the number - (202) 555-1212 in my example - and then, since it didn't match up w/a number that Meredith would likely call, discovered that the last seven digits were the ending to a correct number after scrolling through her contacts and saved phone #'s.

2) Perugia Shock postulates two possibilities about Meredith Kercher's last cell phone call (I'm summarizing):

A) Authentic attempt to get money - either Meredith was under threat from someone to transfer money from her account to his/hers OR Meredith was already dead/dying, and the murderer(s) thought he/she/they could get money from her back account via cell phone.

B Fake attempt to get the money - Meredith already dead and murderer(s) simulated attempt at getting money, to convey the sense that she was still alive and made an effort to bank via cell phone that night

I find the attempted phone call to Meredith's bank, late on the night of November 1, to be a very strange mystery. What other theories have been put forth regarding this event?
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:28 pm   Post subject: That's amore for my Uncle GiGi   

Jools wrote:

Quote:
Hi All,
According to the Cook’s Esoteric Advisor Wilkens, PM Mignini runs an ‘Anti-Amanda’ website and believes this is another problem.
Does anybody know the link to FOM site?
Posted by Harry R. Wilkens at 2/22/09 8:21 a.m.
“Another problem: That Anti-Amanda website is obviously run by Public Prosecutor Mignini, even if he uses members and friends of his family as front. This is illegal, but the Italian Justice doesn't care. 
I did some analysis about this situation and compared all those details given on their site. And now they even run an Internet poll station giving bogus statistics about Amanda's guilt and innocence. This is quite disgusting. But, obviously, those slanderers are highly protected.”



Wow, I feel so.... busted. I forgot to tell y'all that Giuliano Mignini is my uncle. ;) In the family, we call him Uncle GiGi and like to poke gentle fun at his ubiquitous pipe and that purple hunting jacket of his. Uncle GiGi loves to sit around the fire with us after dinner and tell scary but true stories about witches and shit. It's really fun and creepy! Uncle GiGi promised me that if I could dupe a few hundred posters into supporting him, he would make sure that I never have to pay my way for anything whenever I visit the Old Country. Oh, and by the way, since I'm coming clean I might as well confess that Harry Wilkens didn't post that porn here the other day. Uncle GiGi asked me to do something to make that jack ass look even worse than he makes himself look and that was all I could come up with on such short notice.

Uncle GiGi was really pleased and that's what counts for me. I guess you could say that's amore. :)

P.S. Where did Harry make this startling revelation?


Last edited by Skeptical Bystander on Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:39 pm   Post subject:    

Bolint wrote:

Quote:
Ferret wrote:
"I realize that all evidence like Amanda's telephone call to Filomena at 12:08pm on Nov. 2nd could be interpreted in many ways."

One way is that they did not want to leave the house. In daylight someone could have seen them and that would have been very difficult to explain.
On the other hand it was not good to stay a long time in the house either, because that also would have been difficult to explain.
So they decided to start the "discovery phase" by calling Filomena.


It's possible that when Knox called at 12:08 she and Sollecito were both at the cottage already (and maybe had been since early in the morning). We have no other confirmation than the word of Knox and Sollecito that she went alone to the cottage, then back to Sollecito's, then back to the cottage with Sollecito.

It's possible that they did go back to Sollecito's at some point - but maybe much earlier - to clean the mop, the bucket and possible the murder weapon.

It's possible that they had some vague idea that Filomena would be back at the cottage sometime later in the day and that, yes, they wanted to know about what time and wanted to start the discovery phase. Maybe they were hoping to get out of there and go back to Sollecito's but were interrupted by the untimely arrival of the postal police. Remember, they were outside when the PP arrived. Perhaps they were on their way out, not in.

As I noted yesterday, one thing that bothers me is that between 10 am (as per their timeline) and around noon, they had ample time to realize the situation was potentially serious and call for help. It is possible that all the "to and fro" movement between cottage and apartment is bogus - a story to explain the long time lapse and nothing else.

The fact is, we don't know. Let me ask Uncle GiGi about that. :lol:
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Offline Principessa Etrusca


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:00 pm   Post subject:    

In the night of the murder AK, RS and Guede were all under influence of some sort and unable to think straight. Yet, it was an incredibly unintelligent move to throw Meredith's phones into somebody's garden, especially without switching them off. (I believe the second phone was found after it was ringing when Amanda repeatedly "tried to reach Meredith".)

AK and RS were probably not aware where the phones were, otherwise, they would not have been surprised to see the postal policemen.
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Offline FenceSitter


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:04 pm   Post subject:    

Is it possible to clean traces of bleach off the mop and bucket? (assuming the italian girls really only did use aromatic cleaners- what type?). There may still be traces of chlorine if bleach was used.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:11 pm   Post subject:    

FenceSitter wrote:

Quote:
Is it possible to clean traces of bleach off the mop and bucket? (assuming the italian girls really only did use aromatic cleaners- what type?). There may still be traces of chlorine if bleach was used.


This is just a guess, but I think that if Laura was asked under oath about who did the mopping at the cottage habitually and whether or not products containing chlorine bleach were used (answers: Laura and Filomena, only aromatic products containing no bleach), this is because the mop and/or bucket contain traces of bleach and/or the floors (and perhaps other surfaces?) of the cottage were cleaned with bleach.
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Offline FenceSitter


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:19 pm   Post subject:    

Thats what I thought. It wouldnt be possible to clean the mop well enough to get rid of chlorine traces... but this was then probably explained by the defence by the cleaning action due to the faulty pipes at RS house.


Last edited by FenceSitter on Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:26 pm   Post subject:    

Skep,

Uncle GIGI :lol:
All this time and at last we find out you are related to GIGI :lol:

Sorry, I forgot to mentioned it came from the Cook's kitchen table, where else? He is got VIP status there :lol:
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Offline anne


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:32 pm   Post subject:    

Sorry if that has been answered before already but who did AK call first? Meredith or Filomena?
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Offline Principessa Etrusca


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:33 pm   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
It is possible that all the "to and fro" movement between cottage and apartment is bogus - a story to explain the long time lapse and nothing else.


Good point. It is not only possible, but quite probable, especially taking into account what a big job the clean-up was and how disheveled and tired the pair looked in the photos taken on 2nd, not exactly like people who had slept until 10 and then taken taken time over a leisurely breakfast.
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Offline DLW


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:35 pm   Post subject:    

Giustizia wrote:

‘I find the attempted phone call to Meredith's bank, late on the night of November 1, to be a very strange mystery. What other theories have been put forth regarding this event?’

Lots of theories including the two you listed. I believe Micheli’s theory was that Meredith had the cell phone in her pants pocket and when she fell or was pushed to the floor, the redial button for her bank number was somehow activated. The number was stored on the cell phone minus the international prefix?
Micheli also believes (or can prove) that Meredith was standing when she received the initially knife wound.
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Offline anne


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:37 pm   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:

It's possible that when Knox called at 12:08 she and Sollecito were both at the cottage already (and maybe had been since early in the morning). We have no other confirmation than the word of Knox and Sollecito that she went alone to the cottage, then back to Sollecito's, then back to the cottage with Sollecito.

It's possible that they did go back to Sollecito's at some point - but maybe much earlier - to clean the mop, the bucket and possible the murder weapon.


But i dont understand this. At this point their mobile phones were turned on, werent they? So aint it possible to track where they have been at this times?
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:39 pm   Post subject: The other Piccioncini   

It gets better :lol: :lol:
And now the perfect pair have found each other The Piccioncini part 2:


Harry R. Wilkens:
Yes, but in real life Italians really stick together and help each other, like in the Mignini and Sollecito clans. Therefore they have always a big advantage over the foreigners. We should take this seriously, because Amanda is now confronted with this cultural particularity...

oceania8:
Wilkens said.."Yes, but in real life Italians really stick together and help each other"


That is my worry about the jury. :roll:
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:49 pm   Post subject:    

http://tinyurl.com/buykge

Thanks to Button for posting this link to an article about facebook fan groups for Knox and Sollecito. Knox has 15 and Sollecito only 3 so far. In terms of actual fans, Knox leads by a whopping 214 to 4.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:54 pm   Post subject:    

Anne wrote:

Quote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:

It's possible that when Knox called at 12:08 she and Sollecito were both at the cottage already (and maybe had been since early in the morning). We have no other confirmation than the word of Knox and Sollecito that she went alone to the cottage, then back to Sollecito's, then back to the cottage with Sollecito.

It's possible that they did go back to Sollecito's at some point - but maybe much earlier - to clean the mop, the bucket and possible the murder weapon.


But i dont understand this. At this point their mobile phones were turned on, werent they? So aint it possible to track where they have been at this times?


I would think it would be possible and that this will emerge during the trial. But I don't have the technical expertise to say anything more. I don't even own a cellphone anymore. :shock:
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Offline Giustizia


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:55 pm   Post subject:    

DLW wrote:
Lots of theories including the two you listed. I believe Micheli’s theory was that Meredith had the cell phone in her pants pocket and when she fell or was pushed to the floor, the redial button for her bank number was somehow activated. The number was stored on the cell phone minus the international prefix?


I think that's exactly what happened. The number was dialed accidently during the struggle, and if it were Meredith's /English/ cell phone (she had two, I believe - one from home and one from Italy) it's entirely plausible that the number saved in her cell phone was missing the international prefix.

I think the two theories I listed (from Perugia Shock) are highly unlikely. Even though 250 euro was apparently missing from Meredith's drawer, I don't think money played a role in this crime and I don't think any of those involved were interested in forcing Meredith to electronically wire funds to their accounts. In fact, I think AK may have taken the money not because she needed it, but because she thought removing it from Meredith's drawer would dovetail w/the break-in scenario. It was part of the staging.

That said, that's what hypotheses are all about - brainstorm any possible sequence of events in an effort to explain it, and then eliminate those that are either impossible or highly improbable.
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Offline petafly


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:56 pm   Post subject:    

Wasnt there a big language barrier between the girls and Raff and Rudy, given the fact that Amandas and Merediths italien was rather poor to non-existant. Its not easy to argue or fight in a foreign language nor is it to carry out a plan that way. Does somebody know about Raffs or Rudys English-knowledge?
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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:06 pm   Post subject: Harry R. Wilkens   

It's hard to keep up with Candace Dempsey's favorite new poster Harry R. Wilkens. His statements are so very realistic and important, so let me help Candace out by archiving yet another for her - perhaps good for her book:

Harry R. Wilkens wrote:
Quote:
I stated yesterday that the Anti-Amanda Gang is attracting a lot of evil people, also in Seattle... This is also a fact. What is going on in Seattle?


We are SUCH an evil gang! :roll:
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:12 pm   Post subject:    

Petafly wrote:

Quote:
Wasnt there a big language barrier between the girls and Raff and Rudy, given the fact that Amandas and Merediths italien was rather poor to non-existant. Its not easy to argue or fight in a foreign language nor is it to carry out a plan that way. Does somebody know about Raffs or Rudys English-knowledge?


I'm not sure it is a fact that Meredith's Italian was rather poor. I believe she had been studying Italian prior to coming to Perugia, and I think Rudy mentioned in his diary that her Italian was pretty good. I don't know what Amanda's level was. As for Raffaele and Rudy, Raffaele volunteered to give an interview to a British journalist (Kate Mansey) on November 4. I am pretty sure this was in English. And Chris Mellas has claimed that he has spoken to Raffaele on the phone (of course he also claimed he had never spoken to him) -- this would have been in English.
Rudy? Who knows? He went to Germany, gave his name as Kevin Wade. What language was he speaking in Germany? Somehow, I feel it was English. Also, he hung out with the son and mates of erstwhile poster O8, from New Zealand. The police questioned them in English, presumably because their Italian wasn't good enough? So if Rudy was hanging out with them, he probably spoke English.
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Offline anne


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:16 pm   Post subject:    

petafly wrote:
Wasnt there a big language barrier between the girls and Raff and Rudy, given the fact that Amandas and Merediths italien was rather poor to non-existant. Its not easy to argue or fight in a foreign language nor is it to carry out a plan that way. Does somebody know about Raffs or Rudys English-knowledge?


I dont understand why people always tend to think there was a language barrier. Perugia is full of foreign students. Rudy lived in Perugia and hung out with those students a lot.
And Raffaele, i would think that to attend an University you need to at least know how to speak english.
And he was a computer guy.
English aint really a difficult language. I had a bf from abroad too for some years and its quite easy to argue and make plans. Maybe some words go amiss but english aint really hard to speak and to understand.
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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:18 pm   Post subject: Language Barrier?   

petafly wrote:
Wasnt there a big language barrier between the girls and Raff and Rudy, given the fact that Amandas and Merediths italien was rather poor to non-existant. Its not easy to argue or fight in a foreign language nor is it to carry out a plan that way. Does somebody know about Raffs or Rudys English-knowledge?


Hi Petafly!

I wondered that same thing back on the old TC board. Here is my post with Brian S's very informative answer. Hope this helps!

True Crime Board:
Quote:
Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 6:38 pm Post subject: Re: Trying to Imagine

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tara wrote:
Just some thoughts and I'm trying to imagine the scenario.

I have never lived in a bi-lingual household, so I'm hoping you fine folks can help me out!

Giacomo Silenzi, Meredith's boyfriend said they conversed in Italian, since her Italian was much better than his English. So I am assuming from this that Meredith was very good at speaking and understanding Italian. Amanda's parents said recently that Amanda was NOT fluent in Italian. I am assuming that her grasp of the Italian language was not nearly as good as Merediths.

Rudy, RS, Filomena, Laura, and the rest of the boys downstairs have lived and spoken Italian all their lives. Would they also be very fluent in English? When they were all hanging out, what language would be spoken? If it was Italian, wouldn't that be frustrating for Knox?

If what Rudy says has some truth, and AK, RS and Meredith were arguing about money, would the fight transpire in English? If RS and Meredith were arguing, would they argue in Italian, with Meredith translating for Knox? And, on the other hand, would Meredith have to translate Amanda's English at times for RS?

Now I've just confused myself more. Could someone tell me how this works? Wouldn't it be extremely frustrating for the ONE person that wasn't fluent? Or was she...???

Brian S. replied:

Perhaps the easiest way to have some understanding is to appreciate the position of the English language in Europe. Most every school anywhere will teach a foreign language. In most of Europe the "default" foreign language will be English, This will be the case in Spain, France, Germany or Italy. If an Italian wants to study French it is more likely a chosen option. The French get very upset about Franglaise entering their language and I've read recently that some in Italy are unhappy with the way English is impacting on Italian.

Thus, you will find it's fairly easy to get by using English in much of western Europe. Most people have been taught it at least at school level. A bit of arm waving and groping for common words will get you by in most shops, especially in towns. In an international university city like Perugia I expect English was almost like a second language to many, especially in the age group involved. It's known Filomena's english was good. I don't think Meredith's Italian was particularly good because her lecturer at the university said it wasn't BUT her Erasmus year was arranged by the Italian department at Sheffield, so she won't have been exactly a starter. I suspect conversation between the Italians was in Italian. Between Meredith and Amanda in English and when they all got together a mixture of both as necessary to enable understanding. If a word or sentence isn't understood in one language, try the other.
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Offline petafly


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:25 pm   Post subject:    

Quote:
"Her Italian was poor, but she smiled and commented on the special make of vodka I kept behind the bar. She said she'd used it herself instead of rum when she was a barmaid making mojitos back in Britain," he remembers.


Patrick Lumumba quote about Meredith. He did say something about Amandas ability too somewhere, but i cant find it by now. It was something like "I hired her despite of her italien".
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:25 pm   Post subject:    

Tara wrote:

Quote:
It's hard to keep up with Candace Dempsey's favorite new poster Harry R. Wilkens. His statements are so very realistic and important, so let me help Candace out by archiving yet another for her - perhaps good for her book:

Harry R. Wilkens wrote:
Quote:
I stated yesterday that the Anti-Amanda Gang is attracting a lot of evil people, also in Seattle... This is also a fact. What is going on in Seattle?


Thanks for this, Tara. Uncle GiGi is going to be so pleased to see all the hard work Harry is doing for him around the blogosphere! Why, this guy is doing more in a short space of time to advance Uncle GiGi's plan for world domination than I could ever do, no matter how many acolytes I might attract to this board. :)
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:25 pm   Post subject:    

Anne wrote:
"who did AK call first? Meredith or Filomena?"

12:07 Meredith English phone
12:08 Filomena
12:11 Meredith Italian phone
12:11 Meredith English phone
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Offline petafly


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:30 pm   Post subject:    

Thanks Tara. It helps very much.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:33 pm   Post subject: Mop   

Lancelotti wrote:
The Machine wrote:
The connection between the cleaning away of the trail of bloody footprints and the fact Knox and Sollecito were found with a bucket and mop is self-explanatory. Knox and Sollecito had cleaned Meredith's room because her blood had been mixed with water.


Well, in that case it should be easy to find both of them guilty. If this mop and bucket were indeed used to clean away blood, then traces of blood must have been found in the mop.



Hi Lancelotti and welcome to the board. If the mop 'has' been used to clean up blood, I'm not so sure DNA and blood traces 'would' be found on it. It's worth remembering, that in that scenario, that mop would have been spending a lot of time swirling and sitting in a bucket of concentrated bleachy water and bleach effectively destroys DNA and blood. Also, it should be pointed out that the majority of blood cells ( the red cells) don't contain DNA anyway.

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THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline anne


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:35 pm   Post subject:    

bolint wrote:
Anne wrote:
"who did AK call first? Meredith or Filomena?"

12:07 Meredith English phone
12:08 Filomena
12:11 Meredith Italian phone
12:11 Meredith English phone


Alright, and did she also write a sms to Meredith when she couldnt reach her?
Thats what i'd have done. Tell her to call back as soon as she reads that cos strange things are going on...explain the situation to her.
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Offline DLW


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:41 pm

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:44 pm   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:

‘Once again, I recommend that anyone looking for intelligent life in the blogosphere pay a visit to button's eclectic chapbook (eclectchap.blogspot.com). This week, button has several entries about the Meredith Kercher Murder (and thank you, button, for keeping the victim's name where it should be)’

I second that recommendation. I happened to come across the Eclectic Chapbook website early in my travels. There were very few links to her web site in association to this case. I was also impressed by the Meredith Kercher first and always first comments. Also button seemed to have a grasp of the broader implications and far reaching aspects of this case. She also has a rather polished and unique style of writing. I appreciate the updates to her site and has been on my favorite list for some time. I get the impression that these are not just random thoughts on her part, but an intricate mosaic of a much larger picture. As opposed to someone like CW who seems to be endlessly scribbling in a coloring book. I hope she continues to follow this case and offers her views and insights.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:50 pm   Post subject:    

Anne wrote:
"Thats what i'd have done."

We, however, do not know of other calls or text messages of Amanda until 12:46 when she called her mother.
(There may have been, but we don't know)
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:55 pm   Post subject:    

DLW wrote:

Quote:
I second that recommendation. I happened to come across the Eclectic Chapbook website early in my travels. There were very few links to her web site in association to this case. I was also impressed by the Meredith Kercher first and always first comments. Also button seemed to have a grasp of the broader implications and far reaching aspects of this case. She also has a rather polished and unique style of writing. I appreciate the updates to her site and has been on my favorite list for some time. I get the impression that these are not just random thoughts on her part, but an intricate mosaic of a much larger picture. As opposed to someone like CW who seems to be endlessly scribbling in a coloring book. I hope she continues to follow this case and offers her views and insights.


Like I said, it is thanks to you that I discovered this great blog. Just wondering, did you mean IW / CD or CW as in Charlie Wilkes?
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:00 pm   Post subject:    

Bolint wrote:

Quote:
Anne wrote:
"Thats what i'd have done."

We, however, do not know of other calls or text messages of Amanda until 12:46 when she called her mother.
(There may have been, but we don't know)


My understanding is that Charlie Wilkes, who has seen the phone records, says this was the first call to Edda Mellas. Edda Mellas initially said on television that when Knox called her, she told her to call the police. But the police (the postal police) were already there by that time.

Then there is Chris Mellas, who claims they were on the phone with Knox when the body was discovered ("a foot"! etc.). He also said she mistook foot for hoof, though Nicki says this is highly unlikely. In her email, she mentions someone saying "a foot," and I think this is where Chris Mellas got his information. He then used it in a slightly different way, to suggest that he heard all of this firsthand, through the phone. The truth will come out at some point.
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Offline stewarthome2000


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:46 am   Post subject: whats the deal....   

Hello, I just read the FOA website and case summary in defense of Amanda. Here is a list of statements they make to help strengthen their case. Problem is that they lie so much it’s impossible to know when they are being factual. In any event to be fair, for those who know, please let me know which statements they make are true.

1. The Knife
- They state that the DNA match to Kercher or anyone is unlikely because the sample was so poor. It could be anyone's. This evidence is inconclusive. (T/F)
- Forensic scientists have stated that the knife is incompatible with at least two of the three wounds on the victim. This cannot be the murder weapon. (T/F)

2. The Bra Clasp
- At least three other unidentified DNA traces were found on the clasp along with Sollecito’s and Knox's (T/F)
- Video shows the clasp kicked or swept into a pile of clutter and then handled by at least two investigators before it was bagged. This evidence is contaminated. (T/F)

3. The Bathroom and Floor
- There is indeed Kercher’s blood evidence, but that is mixed with Knox’s DNA only in the form of “organic residue” as one would expect in a shared bathroom. Its evidence that of course one would expect since she lived there, not because she present during the murder. (T/F)

4. Statements/Other
- Knox was asked by Police to specifically “imagine a hypothetical situation” what would you do, hence the “covered my ears” dream. (T/F)
- No recording, audio or video exists of Knox’s interrogation. (T/F)
- Her incriminating statement made later at 5:45am is in admissible as he was had become a suspect (I thought it was going to be used??) T/F
- There is no evidence to support a staged burglary or a clean up after the murder was done. This is just at theory to implicate AK and RS. (T/F)


Note: In their defense of Amanda’s statements they use the fact that:
"In about 25% of DNA exoneration cases, innocent defendants made incriminating statements, delivered outright confessions or pled guilty" (http://www.innocenceproject.org/underst ... ssions.php). Because of concern about how police interrogate suspects, many jurisdictions have passed laws requiring that these sessions be recorded electronically. According to the European Criminal Bar Association's summary of Italian criminal procedure law, electronic recording of interrogations is required in Italy, but only after a suspect has been detained (http://www.ecba-eaw.org/cms/index.php?o ... #recording). No electronic recording of Knox's interrogation has been produced or shown to exist.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:01 am   Post subject: Amanda's phone   

Micheli makes some comment on the usage of Amanda's phone in his sentencing report on Rudy Guede.

He is not addressing the case against Amanda, his comments come in the context of examining the possibility that all 3 could have been together that night.

He makes the point that the absence of phone contact between AK and Rudy proves nothing to aid Amanda's defense.

In the preceeding months Rudy was rarely available to anyone on the phone. He didn't seem to own one longer than a few days and he had given different people different numbers over time. He hadn't possessed a phone at all since his trip to Milan. However, Rudy still lived a busy social life. It was all organised on the basis of verbal arrangements, knowing the places where he was likely to find people and his habit of calling at their home on the "off chance" that the person might be in.

Any meetings or arrangements AK may have had with Rudy were never likely to be made by phone. Much more likely were meetings which happened either by chance or by verbal arrangement. Rudy only lived just around the corner from Raffaele's place. He used the same streets and locations in his everyday life.

It is in this context which Micheli offers the following information:

He doesn't explicitly state in his report, whether or not Amanda turned off her phone that night. He makes the observation that it is the absence of it's use following her SMS to Patarick which is itself suspicious.

He says that Amanda was never in the habit of turning off her phone "to save the battery". (Is this what she told the police???)

In the preceeding month there were only 3 occasions when Amanda didn't use her mobile late into the night and the early morning. The previous evening her last phone activity was at 1:04am.

On 2nd October Amanda last used her phone at 19:32, 9th October 18:58 and 22nd October 19:32. On all other days there was late night traffic.

He notes that Raffaele's phone was also silent on the night of the 1st.

It's this unusual absence of phone activity which gives them the opportunity to have been with Rudy and fails to give them an alibi for the night of Meredith's murder.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:46 am   Post subject: Re: whats the deal....   

stewarthome2000 wrote:
Hello, I just read the FOA website and case summary in defense of Amanda. Here is a list of statements they make to help strengthen their case. Problem is that they lie so much it’s impossible to know when they are being factual. In any event to be fair, for those who know, please let me know which statements they make are true.

1. The Knife
- They state that the DNA match to Kercher or anyone is unlikely because the sample was so poor. It could be anyone's. This evidence is inconclusive. (T/F)
- Forensic scientists have stated that the knife is incompatible with at least two of the three wounds on the victim. This cannot be the murder weapon. (T/F)

2. The Bra Clasp
- At least three other unidentified DNA traces were found on the clasp along with Sollecito’s and Knox's (T/F)
- Video shows the clasp kicked or swept into a pile of clutter and then handled by at least two investigators before it was bagged. This evidence is contaminated. (T/F)

3. The Bathroom and Floor
- There is indeed Kercher’s blood evidence, but that is mixed with Knox’s DNA only in the form of “organic residue” as one would expect in a shared bathroom. Its evidence that of course one would expect since she lived there, not because she present during the murder. (T/F)



These arguments were put forward by the defense at the pre-trial. After hearing from prosecution experts they were rejected by Judge Micheli. This doesn't preclude the same arguments being put forward again by the defense at the trial.



stewarthome2000 wrote:
4. Statements/Other
- Knox was asked by Police to specifically “imagine a hypothetical situation” what would you do, hence the “covered my ears” dream. (T/F)
- No recording, audio or video exists of Knox’s interrogation. (T/F)
- Her incriminating statement made later at 5:45am is in admissible as he was had become a suspect (I thought it was going to be used??) T/F
- There is no evidence to support a staged burglary or a clean up after the murder was done. This is just at theory to implicate AK and RS. (T/F)

Note: In their defense of Amanda’s statements they use the fact that:
"In about 25% of DNA exoneration cases, innocent defendants made incriminating statements, delivered outright confessions or pled guilty" (http://www.innocenceproject.org/underst ... ssions.php). Because of concern about how police interrogate suspects, many jurisdictions have passed laws requiring that these sessions be recorded electronically. According to the European Criminal Bar Association's summary of Italian criminal procedure law, electronic recording of interrogations is required in Italy, but only after a suspect has been detained (http://www.ecba-eaw.org/cms/index.php?o ... #recording). No electronic recording of Knox's interrogation has been produced or shown to exist.



Is this evidence??? They would say these things wouldn't they? I don't know whether the interrogation was recorded. Knox's original "Patrick statement" was disallowed because it was taken without a lawyer present. However, she followed this up with some pages she chose to compose of her own free will whilst sat in her cell. She called a policemen to take her "new version" to those who had previously interviewed her. Because she chose to volunteer this information without being asked, it has been ruled admissable. She should have just sat and waited for her lawyer who had been contacted but didn't arrive until morning.

- There is no evidence to support a staged burglary or a clean up after the murder was done. This is just at theory to implicate AK and RS.

This is purely a defense opinion. Millions would say they are talking a load of $£%(*£ rubbish. There is a wealth of evidence to support a staged rape/burglary and clean up.
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Offline stewarthome2000


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Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:47 am

Posts: 152

Location: Perugia, Italy

PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 4:31 am   Post subject: Re: whats the deal....   

Brian S. wrote:
stewarthome2000 wrote:
Hello, I just read the FOA website and case summary in defense of Amanda. Here is a list of statements they make to help strengthen their case. Problem is that they lie so much it’s impossible to know when they are being factual. In any event to be fair, for those who know, please let me know which statements they make are true.

1. The Knife
- They state that the DNA match to Kercher or anyone is unlikely because the sample was so poor. It could be anyone's. This evidence is inconclusive. (T/F)
- Forensic scientists have stated that the knife is incompatible with at least two of the three wounds on the victim. This cannot be the murder weapon. (T/F)

2. The Bra Clasp
- At least three other unidentified DNA traces were found on the clasp along with Sollecito’s and Knox's (T/F)
- Video shows the clasp kicked or swept into a pile of clutter and then handled by at least two investigators before it was bagged. This evidence is contaminated. (T/F)

3. The Bathroom and Floor
- There is indeed Kercher’s blood evidence, but that is mixed with Knox’s DNA only in the form of “organic residue” as one would expect in a shared bathroom. Its evidence that of course one would expect since she lived there, not because she present during the murder. (T/F)



These arguments were put forward by the defense at the pre-trial. After hearing from prosecution experts they were rejected by Judge Micheli. This doesn't preclude the same arguments being put forward again by the defense at the trial.



YES. BUT IS THERE ANY VALIDITY TO THE ABOVE STATEMENTS OR WE SIMPLY DO NOT KNOW EITHER WAY AND HAVE TO WAIT IT OUT?

ONE DOWN... THE FOA STATEMENT THAT HER INCRIMINATING CRAZY WRITTEN STATEMENT IS INADMISSIBLE WE KNOW IS BS. IT WILL BE USED.
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Offline Michael

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Location: England

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:45 am   Post subject: Statements   

Hi SH2000 -

The matter of Amanda's statements is confusing to many and that isn't surprising, for we are talking about THREE statements, and each one has a different legal status. When Amanda was FIRST interviewed on the night of the 5th/early morning of the 6th, she was interviewed as a 'witness', a term which has a specific legal status in Italy. This first statement was completed and signed at 1:45 am. As a witness, ones statement can be used legally against OTHERS, but not against the self. Because of the content of this statement, Amanda's legal status changed from witness to 'suspect', also a specific legal status, and the interview was halted. Amanda then made a second statement, now under the legal staus of 'suspect', a statement which was made at 'her' request, hence it being termed as the 'spontaneous statement' and this statement was completed and signed at 5:45 am. When one has the legal status of 'suspect', a lawyer must be present for it to be used against either the self or somone else. Amanda had no lawyer, therefrore that statement CANNOT be used against her or anyone else. Later, on the day of the 6th, Amanda wrote and signed a 2 page statement in her cell and handed it to the prison authorities. Because she had written, signed and voluntarily handed it over herself, even though she had no lawyer present, this can be used both against the self and others. So, in summary:

1. The statement signed at 1:45 am Cannot be used against Amanda regarding the murder charge, but can (and was) used against others (Patrick). It can however, be used against her on the charge of slander and in Patrick's civil suit for the same.

2. Statement signed at 5:45 am Cannot be used against Amanda, or anyone else.

3. Two page 'note' written later on the 6th Can be used both against Amanda and against others.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline GreenWyvern


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Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:41 pm

Posts: 252

PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:15 am   Post subject:    

Nicki's new post on TJMK summarizing evidence in Judge Micheli's 106-page report is a must-read:

Understanding Micheli #3: How Damning Is The DNA Evidence Coming Up?

Many thanks to Nicki!
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Offline stewarthome2000


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Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:47 am

Posts: 152

Location: Perugia, Italy

PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:34 am   Post subject:    

GreenWyvern wrote:
Nicki's new post on TJMK summarizing evidence in Judge Micheli's 106-page report is a must-read:

Understanding Micheli #3: How Damning Is The DNA Evidence Coming Up?

Many thanks to Nicki!


AWESOME...ANSWERS A LOT OF QUESTIONS POSED ON MY POST...what timing!
If the knife was found hidden in Sollecito's apt. in a box in the closet as I have heard, the straws on the camels back are building and seems to me about to break. Never a dull moment.

Pls dont forget to vote:
http://www.micropoll.com/akira/mpview/546552-142429
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:44 am   Post subject:    

"If the knife was found hidden in Sollecito's apt. in a box in the closet as I have heard"

It was in the kitchen drawer and transferred to the police in a shirt box.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:08 am   Post subject:    

"In the preceeding month there were only 3 occasions when Amanda didn't use her mobile late into the night and the early morning. The previous evening her last phone activity was at 1:04am. "
On 2nd October Amanda last used her phone at 19:32, 9th October 18:58 and 22nd October 19:32. On all other days there was late night traffic.
He notes that Raffaele's phone was also silent on the night of the 1st. "


In Micheli's report the 1.04am indeed refers to Amanda, but the 3 occasions and the rest in the above paragraph refer to Raffaele.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:16 am   Post subject:    

Looking again into Micheli"s report it seems that actually two events took place with Meredith's phone(s?) around the time of the murder:

"la telefonata senza prefisso alla Abbey Bank intorno alle 22:00 non documenta
necessariamente che il telefono della KERCHER fu preso in mano da chi non aveva
dimestichezza con le chiamate internazionali. E’ possibile, ed è anzi più probabile, che si
trattò di una telefonata accidentale, evidenziando lo stesso C.T. della difesa che quello
era il primo numero della rubrica alfabetica nella memoria del cellulare: telefonata
accidentale che durò solo il tempo della comunicazione registrata dell’impossibilità di
prendere la linea e che, molto facilmente, può partire da un apparecchio sempre portato
nella tasca dei pantaloni da chi intende non staccarsene per tenersi in contatto con la
madre malata (come ricorda la ROMANELLI), quando si venga aggrediti e buttati indietro,
tanto da sbattere la nuca, con volontà di sopraffazione.
"Analogamente, l’mms in arrivo alle 22:13, che trova il cellulare inglese nella zona di
Ponte Rio – Montelaguardia,"


One of them was a call without prefix to Abbey Bank at 22:00 and the other was an MMS received at 22:13.
(and later there was yet another unanswered call, this one from Belgium at 0:05 if I remember correctly)
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Offline Catnip


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Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:08 am

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Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:05 pm   Post subject:    

The Machine wrote:
Miss Represented has posted another brilliant piece on her blog:

http://missrepresented.wordpress.com/

Her blog has now become obligatory reading for anyone following the case.


Yes. Psychologically and behaviorally insightful. The emotional disconnect with other people, and so on.

I've noticed that whenever Amanda is reported to have burst into tears, the occasions seem to be
related to being close to being "caught (out)", rather than empathy for anyone else.


Which might partially answer the question:
Why was/is Rudy afraid the other two will/would gang up on him?
Besides the obvious thing like leaving all his DNA and footprints not cleaned up, and all that.

To switch off kindness and thoughtful (just for a moment; I'm not really like this, usually :) ), and emulate the no-connect world of the unempathic. One step into the cold and dark water is sufficient to re-appreciate what dry land is.


Here's something for bored young intelligent and crafty no-hoper thrill-seekers with no social skills or emotional connect (possibly also inside a dis-inhibiting drug haze):
- Truth or Dare?
- Beauty or Intelligence?
- Miss Pretty or Mr Brains?
- which one wins in today's world?
- never mind tricking-or-treating for Halloween, that's for babies
- stage your own murder mystery weekend
- see how long it takes the cops to work it out - if ever!
- the one with the shortest sentence wins
- an acquittal is double points
- only it has to be authentic...
- and look real... (like in the movies)
- the first person to walk through that door
- Hey, Rudy, wake up! Want some free sex tonight?



The above is an imaginary puzzle piece filling the hole defined by the edges of all the other pieces so far.
I was thinking about why it would be so important to mislead the police about the time
that the carabinieri were called -- "it's all a game" is the only hypothesis that fits everything known so far.

It was Giulia Bongiorno's "they're two little lovebirds (piccioncini)"-theory that started this thought rolling.
"Oh dear, the little drug-addled darlings are so cute, they can't even stage a burglary proplerly! How loveably entertaining!"
"Young people these days!"

I was trying to find out which drugs, if any, were involved in that recent Russian schoolgirl murder,
and up popped this (it was a surprise, I had to actually stop and change tracks in mid-thought):

Quote:
1.
Host a Fun Mystery Party
www.MyMysteryParty.com Fun themes, instant downloads. All ages, murder & non-murder.
2.
Fun Murder Mystery Games
Dinnerandamurder.com Boxed or Downloaded. Easy to Host! Interactive, not scripted for 6-50.
3.
Host a Murder Mystery
www.host-party.com Large selection of Murder Mystery games for all ages and group sizes

Search Results

1.
Murder Mystery Games
Host a murder mystery party for your next dinner party or corporate event. Our murder mystery games, provide unique interactive features not found anywhere ...
www.host-party.com/ - 23k - Cached - Similar pages
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Offline stewarthome2000


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Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:47 am

Posts: 152

Location: Perugia, Italy

PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:26 pm   Post subject: where exactly was the knife found?   

bolint wrote:
"If the knife was found hidden in Sollecito's apt. in a box in the closet as I have heard"

It was in the kitchen drawer and transferred to the police in a shirt box.


From Micheli's report on TJMK
"Specifically the DNA belonging to Meredith, Knox, Sollecito, and Guede which was found at the scene of the crime, and on the suspected murder weapon found, apparently HIDDEN, in Raffaele Sollecito’s house."
Comments on TJMK


Also from TJMK -
"The DNA on the HIDDEN knife is very compelling. As Clint Van Zandt put it, the knife, the DNA, and its HIDING make a nice prosecution package. "
" The police claimed they could place them both at the scene of the murder, and that they had what could be the murder weapon. A large knife, found seemingly HIDDEN in Sollecito’s apartment."
http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/P50/


Mediaset Italia says abou the knife at Raffaele's, "...il portapostate di plastica in cui e' stato trovato il coltello da cucina...."
"http://www.tgcom.mediaset.it/cronaca/articoli/articolo407891.shtml
Portapostate is a holder for items, such as forks and knives.


LaStampa states "Anche il coltello, trovato nel cassetto delle posate della cucina del giovane.."
http://www.lastampa.it/redazione/cmsSez ... girata.asp
that usually refers to the drawer with the forks and knives.

Whether it actually considered purposely "hidden"...guess we have to wait for more details.
It may have been placed in a hidden position in back of the container drawer or somewhere unusual apart from the rest of the knives for Michele andf other reports to say "nascosto" or hidden. I would like to know exactly what that means.

It does not seem to be the "hidden" that I have heard before where its stated it was found hidden in a closet, etc. That seems to be BS.



MODERATOR EDIT: Michael - Shortened url
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Offline nicki

Forensics Moderator


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:27 am

Posts: 847

PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:59 pm   Post subject: Re: where exactly was the knife found?   

stewarthome2000 wrote:
bolint wrote:
"If the knife was found hidden in Sollecito's apt. in a box in the closet as I have heard"

It was in the kitchen drawer and transferred to the police in a shirt box.


From Micheli's report on TJMK
"Specifically the DNA belonging to Meredith, Knox, Sollecito, and Guede which was found at the scene of the crime, and on the suspected murder weapon found, apparently HIDDEN, in Raffaele Sollecito’s house."
Comments on TJMK


Also from TJMK -
"The DNA on the HIDDEN knife is very compelling. As Clint Van Zandt put it, the knife, the DNA, and its HIDING make a nice prosecution package. "
" The police claimed they could place them both at the scene of the murder, and that they had what could be the murder weapon. A large knife, found seemingly HIDDEN in Sollecito’s apartment."
http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/P50/


Mediaset Italia says abou the knife at Raffaele's, "...il portapostate di plastica in cui e' stato trovato il coltello da cucina...."
"http://www.tgcom.mediaset.it/cronaca/articoli/articolo407891.shtml
Portapostate is a holder for items, such as forks and knives.


LaStampa states "Anche il coltello, trovato nel cassetto delle posate della cucina del giovane.."
http://www.lastampa.it/redazione/cmsSez ... girata.asp
that usually refers to the drawer with the forks and knives.

Whether it actually considered purposely "hidden"...guess we have to wait for more details.
It may have been placed in a hidden position in back of the container drawer or somewhere unusual apart from the rest of the knives for Michele andf other reports to say "nascosto" or hidden. I would like to know exactly what that means.

It does not seem to be the "hidden" that I have heard before where its stated it was found hidden in a closet, etc. That seems to be BS.


Hi SH2000

The reports on Sollecito's kitchen knife have been ambiguous to say the least. The verb "repertare" means to find and catalogue. At the time I had checked with a couple of lawyers and they both said that the objective meaning of the sentence "repertare in una scatola di camicie" means "to find and catalogue inside a shirt box. However , there's a certain degree of ambiguity in the sentence, since it could also be understood that the knife was found elsewhere, transfered somewhere else (the box) and catologued there. I heard Solelcito's lawyer correcting the audience on"Porta a Porta" on this and nobody contradicted him. So the bottom line is that it seems the knife was found somewhere in the house and placed by the police in the box in order to carry it away. Why would they do that, I have no idea.

Hope this clarifies.


MODERATOR EDIT: Michael - Shortened url in quote
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:49 pm   Post subject:    

From Michelie's report:

Quote:
On 2nd October Amanda last used her phone at 19:32, 9th October 18:58 and 22nd October 19:32. On all other days there was late night traffic.
He notes that Raffaele's phone was also silent on the night of the 1st. "


It is interesting to note the importance to investigators of failure to observe habitual patterns that can be established by looking at such things as phone records.
October 2 and October 9, 2007 were Tuesdays.
October 22, 2007 was a Monday.

We had initially placed the first meeting between the love birds on October 18 (way back on haloscan). Then Sollecito and his defense claimed it was much later, that they had known each other only a week or so when Meredith Kercher was killed. The story in both cases is that they met at a concert and then spent the night together. Might that have been on October 22?
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Offline Ferret


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Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:21 am

Posts: 101

Location: Hidden Hills, CA

PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:16 pm   Post subject: Re: whats the deal....   

stewarthome2000 wrote:
Hello, I just read the FOA website and case summary in defense of Amanda. Here is a list of statements they make to help strengthen their case. Problem is that they lie so much it’s impossible to know when they are being factual. In any event to be fair, for those who know, please let me know which statements they make are true.

1. The Knife
- They state that the DNA match to Kercher or anyone is unlikely because the sample was so poor. It could be anyone's. This evidence is inconclusive. (T/F)
- Forensic scientists have stated that the knife is incompatible with at least two of the three wounds on the victim. This cannot be the murder weapon. (T/F)

2. The Bra Clasp
- At least three other unidentified DNA traces were found on the clasp along with Sollecito’s and Knox's (T/F)
- Video shows the clasp kicked or swept into a pile of clutter and then handled by at least two investigators before it was bagged. This evidence is contaminated. (T/F)

3. The Bathroom and Floor
- There is indeed Kercher’s blood evidence, but that is mixed with Knox’s DNA only in the form of “organic residue” as one would expect in a shared bathroom. Its evidence that of course one would expect since she lived there, not because she present during the murder. (T/F)

4. Statements/Other
- Knox was asked by Police to specifically “imagine a hypothetical situation” what would you do, hence the “covered my ears” dream. (T/F)
- No recording, audio or video exists of Knox’s interrogation. (T/F)
- Her incriminating statement made later at 5:45am is in admissible as he was had become a suspect (I thought it was going to be used??) T/F
- There is no evidence to support a staged burglary or a clean up after the murder was done. This is just at theory to implicate AK and RS. (T/F)
[/i]


1. A) False, the tests were done, followed procedures for PCR testing and got a match for Meredith. There wasn't enough of s sample for the defense to independent testing, so therefore in their eyes, it is inconclusive. The key is whether the judge(s) believe in the tests as bona fide, and will be used in the verdict. Why Guede's verdict prettty much sealed Sollecito and Knox's fate, because the scientific testing stood up in his case.

B) "Forensic" scientists is misleading. "Forensic" is used mainly as an adjective for the noun in a legal setting. "Forensic" evidence or "forensic" idiot just mean the object is used in a court of law or in a legal setting. If the scientist, or a medical physician is a specialist in knife wounds, like a coroner who has papers published on the subject that has more validity.

However, the prosecution or defense can hire experts or "forensic" scientists to interpret evidence to support their case. Knife wounds interpretation will be more into the art category than scientific arena, much like blood splatter analysis.

2) A) I would probably say false without seeing the testing. Again, this is a matter of interpretation by the defense. There could had been testing of the three samples and the results were inconclusive for a match, whether the sample was Rudy's, Amanda's or Raffaele's dna on the clasp, even though the crime lab got DNA identification on other test samples. Three tests were inconclusive, so therefore it can be argued by the defense that there could be "Three other people's unidentified DNA are on the clasp", the Defense is just trying to raise doubt and sully a pretty incriminating piece of evidence.

B) I haven't seen the video, so I can't give a True or False Answer, I can say that if the clasp was pushed around in dust or dirt, the testing would come up inconclusive for any samples on the clasp, not put more dna of other people on it. "Contamination" argument can be disingenuously used. "Contamination" doesn't mean planting evidence to implicate innocent people as much as screw up procedures to make the direct evidence impossible to get identification, or the handler got his or her own dna on it the evidence by sneezing, sweating or not properly handling the evidence.


3) Once again, it a matter of argument to set up a case in a legal arena than absolute proof. Yes, Amanda's blood could had been there for many reasons, like the unlikely "she was piercing her ears" explanation. However, Meredith's blood is all over the bathroom, including a 25 centimeter long blood stain in the bathroom. Someone or some people went into the bathroom to wash themselves off of blood. The scientific testing shows Amanda's blood in the bathroom. If I were on Amanda's defense team, I would contest all DNA testing, including this one. I wouldn't pick and choose. They need to show that dna testing and procedures were faulty and it is impossible to get proper identification for any direct/physical evidence. They can't use a different argument, like "yeah, yeah, it is Amanda's blood in the bathroom, but there is an innocent explanation why it is there". They have to say all the dna testing was faulty, because a combination of poor handling, sloppy or ignored procedures, a lab as clean as condemn fish and chips shop. Verifying the results of Amanda's blood in the bathroom by the defense, means the laboratory was doing its job, which validates the other testing which the defense is trying to throw into doubt. Basically they have put Dr Stefanoni and the crime lab on trial.

Much like if the defense pins the blame on Rudy Guede by using the same direct evidence to implicate him that they are contesting for Raffaele and Amanda. The evidence was picked up by all the same people and tested at the same laboratory. A key to a good defense is taking attention away from their client and making the trial about something else like police or criminologists. (hint: like what the OJ Simpson defense team did with Dennis Fung)

4) This is such a minefield and huge headache for the defense. I think the scenario the defense wants to do, is to hide underneath the covers and hope Amanda's interviews, written statements with the Carabinieri, bugged cellphone conversations, prison diary etc. just hope it all goes away like a young child who think there are monsters in his or her bedroom in the middle of the night.

Much of 4) is redundant because the court allowed Amanda's written statement that she was at 7 via della Pergola during the murder. Amanda doesn't have an alibi, and if she tries to lie some more when her defense lays out her case, it will just make it worse for her.

On 4)D (the staged break in) there is plenty of evidence of a staged break in, like that window was smashed from the inside, the location of the window, made it difficult for entry from the outside and clothes, jewelry and electronic equipment was untouched. So false, there is plenty of evidence of a staged burglary.


The luminol findings are just one piece in the puzzle there was a clean up of the crime scene.


Last edited by Ferret on Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Offline Fly by Night


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:17 pm   Post subject: Re: whats the deal....   

Ferret wrote:
stewarthome2000 wrote:
FOA say: "Forensic scientists have stated that the knife is incompatible with at least two of the three wounds on the victim. This cannot be the murder weapon."


B) "Forensic" scientists is misleading. "Forensic" is used mainly as an adjective for the noun in a legal setting. "Forensic" evidence or "forensic" idiot just mean the object is used in a court of law or in a legal setting. If the scientist, or a medical physician is a specialist in knife wounds, like a coroner who has papers published on the subject that has more validity.


This statement is misleading and actully works against the FOA/defense. First off, we know there were many, many wounds to Meredith - not just the 3 knife wounds cited here. An analysis of all of the wounds Meredith sustained points to the involvement of more than one attacker. If 2 out of 3 knife wounds do not appear to be compatible with the kitchen knife, this again points to the invovelment of more than one attacker. The location of 2 of the 3 knife wounds indicate acts of intimidation during the intial stages of the attack, as if Meredith were being forced to do something against her will. Whose knife might that have been? But the primary problem remains this: the main stab wound through the neck is compatible with the kitchen knife that has both Amanda's and Merediths DNA (and nobody else's) on it; the knife that was found HIDDEN at Raffaele's.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:23 pm   Post subject:    

http://tinyurl.com/by48qa
There is a brief mention of the FOA campaign and the Nadeau/Vogt piece on a blog called PR blog (link above).
Anne Bremner posted an FOA press release as a rejoinder in the comments section, and I have posted my reaction to that. It was awaiting moderation, but may be up now.
It seems FOA is making a huge deal once again about the passage from the diary that was supposedly "willfully mistranslated" from English to Italian and then back into English and then "leaked" by the prosecution.

People who have been following this case from the early days know that when the diaries were "released" and this release was reported on in Newsweek (by Barbie Nadeau), it was stated that they had been released by the defense attorneys for Sollecito and Knox. So who did this intentionally bad translation?

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Offline DLW


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:41 pm

Posts: 623

PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:29 pm   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:

‘Like I said, it is thanks to you that I discovered this great blog. Just wondering, did you mean IW / CD or CW as in Charlie Wilkes?’

Skep you have a photographic memory. I do remember way back in the Haloscan days I came across one of buttons comments that I wanted to share with the group.

I was referring to Charlie. In a way he reminds me of a hyperactive kid who’s trying to put a jigsaw puzzle together and he’s using all the wrong pieces that he got from other boxes (case files) , and he ends up with a discombobulated finished product. In this case he goes by the least common denominator (one perpetrator one crime one motive) whether the evidence points in that direction or not. Sort of the modern day version of ’Damn the torpedoes! Full speed ahead‘.
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Offline Greggy


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:50 pm   Post subject:    

I started posting on this forum about the Kercher murder case after I retired from another forum that had lost its objectivity. I have observed recently that an increasing number of posters on this forum are losing their objectivity towards Sollecito. I suggest that they take a step back and reflect on what evidence has been presented heretofore. The trial just started. Behavioral evidence is suggestive but his guilt will probably be convincingly decided on scientific evidence. There has been no scientific evidence presented in this trial yet involving Sollecito.

I have not had access to the translation of the 106 page Micheli decision. If the post made by Nicki on another site is accurate, however, then this case is far from over. There is a considerable amount of weasel wording in the DNA analysis data concerning the knife and bra clasp. There is no mention of how many short tandem repeats (STR) loci on the knife matched Miss Kercher, which would lay the whole matter to rest, especially if the defense teams could confirm the data. Scientists usually test for 13-16 STRs and the true strength of the methodology lies in how many STRs match in total, not individually. There seems to have been a considerable amount of noise in the PCR results and the relative fluorescent units (RFU) of the results are very low. In general, more RFUs observed, more DNA found. It will be instructive to find how out how many polymerase chain reactions (PCR) the scientists used on their thermal cycler to get the DNA results. In general, the more cycles, the more amplification of the DNA, but the more side-reactions. Where and how the bra clasp was found is a huge issue with other unidentified traces of DNA being found on it.

Three principles in the report are inaccurate. First, You don't need to press hard to get DNA transfer using cells, especially on metal. Negatively-charged DNA and cells will often stick electrostatically to positively-charged metals. It sounds like they found 5 distinct sources of DNA on the bra clasp. Secondly, the transfer of cells to the bra clasp could have been passive, from someone covered with the cells (i.e. Knox from Sollecito). It is far-fetched but possible. If you have a lover or a cat, you are covered with their DNA. If the RFUs of Sollecito's DNA are extremely low on the bra clasp, expect his defense team to blame it on passive transfer from Knox. Lastly, PCR using fluorescence is only semi-quantitative and RFUs are just that, relative fluorescent units. I am waiting to see the evidence presented before making a final judgment on Sollecitos direct involvement with the commission of the actual murder. I fully expect Sollecito's defense team to hire an DNA testing expert that will be all over the DNA results and testifying in court about the limitations of the interpretations of the results. If the DNA results are better than we currently know, however, then the court case is probably done. I would predict some sort of deal for hometown boy and a guilty plea.
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:03 pm   Post subject: Diary translation   

Anybody knows if this "evil" translation of the diary is from the My Prison Diary?

On page 4 half of the page is blank or rather some text ommited. Is it possible that text is from what's missing from that page and if it is which text fits better as a continuation of what she wrote?
On page 3 last paragraph she is writing about not remembering anything about that night but wants to remember how she remembered everything that happened that night...
Then she gets the visit from the nun and suddenly remembers everything, etc.

The version they claimed is wrong:
... That night I smoked a lot of marijuana and I fell asleep at my boyfriend’s house. I don’t remember anything...

What they are saying she wrote:
...Raffaele and I have used this knife to cook, and it’s impossible that Meredith’s DNA is on the knife because she’s never been to Raffaele’s apartment before...
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:11 pm   Post subject:    

Greggy wrote:

Quote:
I started posting on this forum about the Kercher murder case after I retired from another forum that had lost its objectivity. I have observed recently that an increasing number of posters on this forum are losing their objectivity towards Sollecito. I suggest that they take a step back and reflect on what evidence has been presented heretofore. The trial just started. Behavioral evidence is suggestive but his guilt will probably be convincingly decided on scientific evidence. There has been no scientific evidence presented in this trial yet involving Sollecito.


I'm trying to figure out what you mean by the first statement. Do you think more and more people here are leaning towards Sollecito's involvement? I ask because I hadn't noticed any general movement one way or another. I find that in a given day I am able to entertain several hypotheses about Sollecito, from total and principal involvement to peripheral after-the-fact involvement. I must admit that "no involvement whatsoever; victim of a miscarriage of justice" is one I have some trouble with at this stage, mainly because of the behavioral evidence and the wild stories.

My own feeling is that Sollecito is fully prepared to cut Knox loose if he thinks she is going down for the count. On the other hand, if it looks like she can help him in the alibi department, then he will continue to hang on to her. I am basing that partly on Doc Sollecito's recent statements in Panorama, to the effect that Raffaele still isn't sure that Knox was with him all night but is currently leaning in that direction. I find this an incredible thing to say. But I also find it impossible to believe that Sollecito could be having memory problems of this kind without the addition of some strong chemicals.

I can't address your comments about DNA because I don't know enough about the subject. But I am sure that Sollecito's team will continue to contest the bra clasp. It will be interesting to see what becomes of the bare footprints, which are too small to be Guede's and compatible with Sollecito.

Don't laugh, but on a gut level I find it easier to see Sollecito as inflicting violence than Knox. His knife collection creeps me out and so does that facebook photo of him with the meat cleaver. But I wouldn't built a case for guilt on that stuff alone.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:27 pm   Post subject:    

Jools wrote:

Quote:
Anybody knows if this "evil" translation of the diary is from the My Prison Diary?

On page 4 half of the page is blank or rather some text ommited. Is it possible that text is from what's missing from that page and if it is which text fits better as a continuation of what she wrote?
On page 3 last paragraph she is writing about not remembering anything about that night but wants to remember how she remembered everything that happened that night...
Then she gets the visit from the nun and suddenly remembers everything, etc.

The version they claimed is wrong:
... That night I smoked a lot of marijuana and I fell asleep at my boyfriend’s house. I don’t remember anything...

What they are saying she wrote:
...Raffaele and I have used this knife to cook, and it’s impossible that Meredith’s DNA is on the knife because she’s never been to Raffaele’s apartment before...


I thought it was from the diary because it was one of the quoted paragraphs in Nadeau's original article in Newsweek. When I read the amended version, I was really confused because the part about smoking marijuana was left out. Was it intentionally left out to sanitize AK's image?

Anyway, aside from that the second version sounds like it was actually written in English and the first one sounds like a translation. What is important is that AK is affirming that Meredith had "never been to Raffaele's apartment before" at about the same time RS is writing in his diary that maybe he pricked Meredith with a knife while cooking at his place!
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Offline stewarthome2000


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Location: Perugia, Italy

PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:33 pm   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
It seems FOA is making a huge deal once again about the passage from the diary that was supposedly "willfully mistranslated" from English to Italian and then back into English and then "leaked" by the prosecution.


Having read the FOA webste and propaganda up and down, I suppose its this they are referring to: http://www.friendsofamanda.org/fairness.html

BUT,...I do not think this was a direct "translation" it was a paragraph of excerpts of amanda's WRITTEN statments and diary used in an article about the case. Anwyay, if you read the the statement and diary excerpts for the most part Amanda wrote she smoked marijuana (FOA missed that), wrote that she also probably she fell asleep at my boyfriend’s house, and wrote that she is confused and doesn't remember much...not exactly in that order, but within a paragraph of two. For the rest it as part of the diary and the meaning is the basically the same.

The reporters were using license to summarize pertinent details of what she wrote...not that the "statement was translated word for word".
But she did make all those statements at one time or another.... If you see her full written statement and diary, you will see the interpretation is on the money.....FOA is really reaching.

We are splitting hairs here...for the most part, she said all those things in one way or another.


See:

THE DAILY BEAST

THIS IS LONDON

DISCOVERY (LAST PARAGRAPH)

THE MAIL ON SUNDAY



MODERATOR EDIT: Michael - Shortened url's
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Offline stewarthome2000


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Location: Perugia, Italy

PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:23 pm   Post subject:    

Knox's Statement (English version):
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... -note.html

Italian excerpts
REPUBBLICA

REPUBBLICA
(My favorite is the last paragraph on page 3)
"Incapace di gestire questa storia". Una storia a volte confusa, contraddittoria rispetto alle versioni fornite precedentemente, in cui più volte la studentessa americana dice di essere "molto confusa", di ricordare poco e male. "A questo punto - scrive - la mia testa è piena di idee contrastanti e mi dispiace di essere incapace di gestirle". Put that on the FOA website. For those who dont ready Italian, trust me its funny a hell. Can I summarize?..it says basically amanda is more confused than a shithouse rat.


Now the DIARY...
In Italian they are describing what she wrote..not "translating it word for word"
REPUBBLICA


LEGAZZETTA
Again it was a summary of her statements, " la sera del delitto l’avrebbe passata a casa di Raffaele dove avrebbe fumato marijuana e si sarebbe addormentata. Afferma dunque di non ricordare nulla, a meno che - ed è questa l’ipotesi accusatoria avanzata dalla studentessa americana – non sia stato Sollecito, mentre lei dormiva, ad andare a casa di Meredith, a violentarla e ad ucciderla. Poi – ipotizza sempre Amanda nel suo diario in cella – Raffaele potrebbe esser tornato indietro con il coltello su cui non è escluso che abbia impresso le impronte di Amanda mentre lei dormiva, lo abbia lavato e poi rimesso al suo posto. Ma se così fosse – scrive ancora la giovane – non si capisce perché Raffaele l’abbia fatto."

In essence what was written about what Amanda said is more or less correct.

Jeeez..ya gotta do better than that FOA!




MODERATOR EDIT: Michael - Shortened urls
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:23 pm   Post subject:    

Greggy wrote:

Quote:
If you have a lover or a cat, you are covered with their DNA.


In this case, it is surprising there isn't more DNA from Guede on Meredith's body.

Greggy added:

Quote:
If the RFUs of Sollecito's DNA are extremely low on the bra clasp, expect his defense team to blame it on passive transfer from Knox.


I am pretty sure the will blame it on Knox and passive transfer, but my understanding is that Sollecito left abundant DNA on the clasp. Knox's DNA was also found on the bra, according to Sollecito's defense.

I don't know enough about these issues to discuss them further, but fully expect they will be contested at trial. As they should be. Just out of curiosity, do you have a background in molecular biology or some related field or have we just been googling the same key words? :)
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:40 pm   Post subject:    

Stewarthome2000: Thanks for taking the time to read that FOA site up and down and then track down Italian references. It's a big help.

This is a bit off-topic, but I'd love to know what the sentiment is in Perugia, among people you know.

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Offline Ferret


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Location: Hidden Hills, CA

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:56 am   Post subject:    

Greggy wrote:
I fully expect Sollecito's defense team to hire an DNA testing expert that will be all over the DNA results and testifying in court about the limitations of the interpretations of the results. If the DNA results are better than we currently know, however, then the court case is probably done. I would predict some sort of deal for hometown boy and a guilty plea.


The possibility for a deal with Sollecito by the prosecution was over for some time, probably since the end of 2007. The prosecution has enough evidence to get a conviction of Sollecito, They don't need to make a deal. The only reason to make a deal with Sollecito is to have him testify against Knox, which the prosecution don't need to do.

However, Sollecito's credibility is just as awful as Knox's credibility. Sollecito on the stand can explain in eye opening detail that the prosecution can't put fill in the complete picture with their thesis about motive and possibly a step by step account of how murder was murdered. However, he would make Cavoli Riscaldati look firm and strong when Amanda's defense get through with him on the witness stand. , Amanda's defense could just use Raffaele's lies when he is on the witness stand, and pretty much state, "why the contradictions?" and make him out to be the murderer.

Raffaele can't offer much to the prosecution's case, he has close to zero credibility. He actually can be a headache to the prosecution's case if made a plea deal in exchange for leniency, given he isn't a very credible witness at this moment.


I wouldn't call him a "hometown boy", he is from Bari. Mezzogiorno is sort of looked upon as a country on itself in Italy, with many Northerners wondering why they have subidized a bunch of hillbillies and criminals. His accent would make any Central Italian asked, "So you aren't from these parts?".
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Offline Tara


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Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

Posts: 1010

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:02 am   Post subject: Sad Story here in the Seattle Area   

Here's a very sad story about a 43 year old man who stabbed and beat both his parents to death. He was high on crack cocaine.

Here's a portion from the PI:
Quote:
Son pleads guilty in Kent double-murder
By TRACY JOHNSON
P-I REPORTER

A man who admitted he stabbed and beat his parents while "extremely high on cocaine" ignored his lawyer's advice on Monday by promptly pleading guilty in the two murders.

Vincent W. Housley decided on the plea less than three weeks after Joe and Karen Housley were found dead in their Kent home because "he thought that's what would be best for his family," said his attorney, Richard Lichtenstadter.

The lawyer said he didn't have time to explore any possible defenses, including whether Housley's drug use made him incapable of premeditation or whether he suffered any mental problems.

He didn't even have the chance to review hundreds of pages of police reports and other evidence before Housley's plea abruptly ended what could have been a months- or years-long wait for a trial.

In Superior Court, Housley said the killings "just happened in a split second," but he acknowledged upon questioning by King County Deputy Prosecutor John Castleton that he had time to go into different rooms and even retrieve a second knife during the attacks.

The heavyset 43-year-old said he thought about killing his parents "for a brief moment in time" and admitted, after hesitating for a few long moments, that he knew what he was doing despite smoking crack.

He acknowledged being "extremely high on cocaine" when he got into an argument with his father, became enraged, and ended up killing both of his parents.


"I am extremely sorry and wish this never happened," he said in a written statement.


****************************************************************************************

I realize that this is a bit O/T however, cocaine is easy to procure in Perugia from what I've read. I'm just sayin'. Is it possible "crack cocaine" had something to do with Meredith's murder as we have all be discussing off and on forever? Look what this guy here in Seattle did. :shock:
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Offline anne


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Location: Berlin Kreuzberg

Highscores: 3

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:18 am   Post subject:    

Hey there...

yesterday i've watched the powerpoint presentations of Kermit (:idea:).
And i think it was somewhere there where i saw pictures or a video of some men outside Filomenas window reaching over the balustrade, testing whether they could reach the window. They also filmed a knife laying on the ground and handkerchiefs (?) with blood on them. Now im totally confused because i cant find it anymore. It definitely was on TJMK. I guess :?

Can you maybe give me the link to it? I dont know where exactly that was posted anymore. Maybe you do.

Thannks in advance :D
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Offline stewarthome2000


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Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:47 am

Posts: 152

Location: Perugia, Italy

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:27 am   Post subject: Perugia sentiment from one point of view...   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Stewarthome2000: Thanks for taking the time to read that FOA site up and down and then track down Italian references. It's a big help.

This is a bit off-topic, but I'd love to know what the sentiment is in Perugia, among people you know.


Perugia sentiment from one point of view...
Most of the people I know in Perugia usually say something like this…”mama mia, incredibile no? che casino..ma dai Lei e’ copevole no?!”, which basically mean, “Wow its incredible this case, what a mess, but who we kidding, she is guilty!”. They know I am an Americano so they are especially eager to talk to me because what a show an American has brought to the small and often overlooked town of Perugia. Americans usually bring tourism dollars to Italy (albiet much less to PG) not rape, death and cute pink vibrators. They want to say she guilty, but don’t want to seem like they came to a hasty decision.

I have a close friend who is following the case religiously and he says totally innocent…poverina (poor girl). But most think that she is guilty in some way.
I am especially surprised at the number of women convinced of her guilt and want to see her convicted. I am amazed at how fast the women in PG are ready to say, “bugiarda stronza, copevole, spero che Lei resta per marcire in Prigione”..basically “that lying bitch, I hope she stays and rots in Prison”.
Guys are around 65/35 she is guilty, women more like 80/20 she is guilty, at least around the people that I know, with females the most vicious.


In Perugia, I believe the jury is made up of two judges, including the president of the court, and six citizens. And it takes just a simple majority to convict with the judges vote having mnore weight. If they share the same views as most people in PG, Knox is doomed. I think they also know a conviction is not the end of the road (there is an appeal process), while an acquittal sets her free. So to play it safe in round one, I think the majority will say guilty. The FOA campaign has done much to solidify Perugian sentiment against Amanda. But as we say in Italy.. “chi sa”..who knows. Take a look at OJ!

Oh and a note to FOA... the Perugians think you guys are the epitome of American arrogance. The nauseating (anti-Italian) press campaign you launched to turn sentiment towards Amanda’s innocence has incensed Perugians and many Italians. Newsflash! She is on trial in Italy not the US. Focus all the miss-spent energy in censorship and spin on her defense in the courtroom and it may actually help. Those turds you have running around spewing BS (CD, PC, AB and others) may make you feel better, but they are making things worse. Incidently, where is Joe Tacopina when the money ran out? Gone like a fart in the wind. Pitiful.
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Offline Greggy


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:05 am   Post subject:    

Mr. Ferret,

Thank you for letting me know about the dynamics of Italian society, in that the part of the country Sollecito is from is viewed as being akin to hillbillies and criminals. That is good to know. However, I respectably disagree with your opinion that no deal can still be made between Sollecito and the Prosecution. There will always be doubts about this case if no one confesses and they are both found guilty. The problem is that the best evidence in this senseless murder is against Guede.

This case has the potential to incite a variant of missing-white-woman syndrome in the American press the longer it goes on. If found guilty, the press could be following Knox's prison time for years as a maybe innocent woman missing in an Italian hell-hole. If her guilt is settled, she will be forgotten and viewed akin to Karla Homolka. The Italians want this horrific crime settled and finished, with justice and an explanation story for Miss Kercher's parents. Since Guede has decided not to confess, that leaves Sollecito to confess and receive the reduced sentence. In my opinion, Knox doesn't even know what the truth is enough to confess, and the return of Foxy Knoxy behavior is bad news for Sollecito's defense, since he is linked to her during the trial. Her behavior could deteriorate. At that point, there may be a long leisurely lunch this spring outside on a piazza, with delicious food and wine, between the Prosecution and Sollecito's defense team, where everything will be settled.
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Offline Ferret


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Location: Hidden Hills, CA

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:02 am   Post subject:    

Ferret wrote:
Greggy wrote:
I fully expect Sollecito's defense team to hire an DNA testing expert that will be all over the DNA results and testifying in court about the limitations of the interpretations of the results. If the DNA results are better than we currently know, however, then the court case is probably done. I would predict some sort of deal for hometown boy and a guilty plea.


The possibility for a deal with Sollecito by the prosecution was over for some time, probably since the end of 2007. The prosecution has enough evidence to get a conviction of Sollecito, They don't need to make a deal. The only reason to make a deal with Sollecito is to have him testify against Knox, which the prosecution don't need to do.

However, Sollecito's credibility is just as awful as Knox's credibility. Sollecito on the stand can explain in eye opening detail that the prosecution can't put fill in the complete picture with their thesis about motive and possibly a step by step account of how murder was committed. However, he would make Cavoli Riscaldati look firm and strong when Amanda's defense get through with him on the witness stand. , Amanda's defense could just use Raffaele's lies when he is on the witness stand, and pretty much state, "why the contradictions?" and make him out to be the murderer.

Raffaele can't offer much to the prosecution's case, he has close to zero credibility. He actually can be a headache to the prosecution's case if made a plea deal in exchange for leniency, given he isn't a very credible witness at this moment.


I wouldn't call him a "hometown boy", he is from Bari. Mezzogiorno is sort of looked upon as a country on itself in Italy, with many Northerners wondering why they have to subidized a bunch of hillbillies and criminals. His accent would make any Central Italian asked, "So you aren't from these parts?".
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Offline Giustizia


Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:13 pm

Posts: 113

Location: New York City

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:12 am   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
There is a brief mention of the FOA campaign and the Nadeau/Vogt piece on a blog called PR blog (link above). Anne Bremner posted an FOA press release as a rejoinder in the comments section, and I have posted my reaction to that. It was awaiting moderation, but may be up now.


It blows my mind that Anne Bemner, a U.S. attorney, can make this outrageously false statement without smirking: "I was asked by 'Friends of Amanda' to help turn around this supertanker of bad press over in Italy and get the truth out about Amanda's innocence," said Seattle attorney, Anne Bremner. "The prosecution has no forensic evidence at all. Zero. None."

Right. And the sun rotates around the earth, Anne.

Quoted in the West Seattle Herald article Friends, family show support for Amanda Knox on February 1, 2009, Knox but w/no indication when Bremner actually made the unequivocal lie. Say something enough times, and one begins to believe it might be true. That's a sure sign of self-delusion. I guess Bremner shares some of the same personality quirks that AK does.

BTW, Skeptical Bystander, I respect the fact that you actually outed yourself and used your real name.
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 868

Location: New York

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:46 am   Post subject:    

Giustizia wrote:
Skeptical Bystander, I respect the fact that you actually outed yourself and used your real name.


Gius, Skep has used her real name here and there for many months. It is no secret here. I have used my real name on other blogs for years.

My experience is that it is more satisfying to use one's own name, it is safer in a way (you cant be outed!), and it attracts a lot of support and help.

I dont know anyone who moved to using their real name on the web who regrets it. Not such a scary thing all in all.

Fast Pete (Peter Quennell)
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 868

Location: New York

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:59 am   Post subject:    

Greggy wrote:
This case has the potential to incite a variant of missing-white-woman syndrome in the American press the longer it goes on. If found guilty, the press could be following Knox's prison time for years as a maybe innocent woman missing in an Italian hell-hole.


Greggy, that is not the way the American press is headed. None of the media are carying a torch for Amanda now.

Greggy wrote:
At that point, there may be a long leisurely lunch this spring outside on a piazza, with delicious food and wine, between the Prosecution and Sollecito's defense team, where everything will be settled.


Equally absurd. Stop sliming the Italians as you so love to do.

By the way, Greggy, I see you are up to 11 posts here. Isnt that about when you go flouncing off in true drama-queen style?
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Offline Giustizia


Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:13 pm

Posts: 113

Location: New York City

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:06 am   Post subject:    

Ferret wrote:
However, he [Sollecito] would make Cavoli Riscaldati look firm and strong when Amanda's defense get through with him on the witness stand.


Brilliant comment, Ferret!

I don't know how many others understood the joke, but I have to admit I laughed my ass off when I read this! For those who don't read Italian, cavoli riscaldati literally means "reheated cabbage." But there's a second meaning that's even more cleverly humorous. Italians compare the attempt to revive a dead love affair to a cook who tries to reheat old cooked cabbage, a culinary effort that never fails to be unworkable, messy, and distasteful. And didn't RS send flowers to AK when she celebrated her 21st birthday in her prison cell in July?!
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Offline Giustizia


Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:13 pm

Posts: 113

Location: New York City

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:22 am   Post subject:    

Fast Pete wrote:
Gius, Skep has used her real name here and there for many months. It is no secret here. I have used my real name on other blogs for years. My experience is that it is more satisfying to use one's own name, it is safer in a way (you cant be outed!), and it attracts a lot of support and help. I dont know anyone who moved to using their real name on the web who regrets it. Not such a scary thing all in all.


Peter, no, it's not scary at all, I agree, and I understand your point. But I have a freelance position on the web as a content manager, with a forum in Italian and English, and I'm not interested in having anyone begin a conversation there about this case. As it is I spend a fair amount of (uncompensated) time monitoring the forums and banning i trollisti. It's strange actually - for almost ten years now /I/ have been the only person whose identity was public on my own forum, and literally thousands of people have hid behind screen names. Yet here I am now, on the other side of the screen, posting without identifying myself, at least at the outset.

But I'll use my real name if you prefer, I have nothing to hide and I'm not embarrassed by what I have to say (seeing all those anonymous posters on Perugia Shock spouting off gibberish turns me off quickly). If it lends more credibility to my comments, well I'm perfectly content to introduce myself.
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Offline stewarthome2000


User avatar


Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:47 am

Posts: 152

Location: Perugia, Italy

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:35 am   Post subject: expert psychological analysis...   

Its moving in another direction, but I am curious to know if any psychiatric professionals have chimed in to give their perspective on Knox’s behavior since the tragic event. It seems she was “disassociated” from the severity and reality of the incident based on what others said about her strange un-saddened behavior the day after the murder. Then the breakdown and flashbacks, confusion, contradictory statements, etc.

It’s almost like a textbook acute stress disorder after a traumatic event.
http://www.gulfbend.org/poc/view_doc.ph ... 499&cn=109 (check it out)

Then of course strange characteristics of playing guitar or singing at inopportune moments like when everyone was watching TV, etc. WTF…Kinda outta touch with the surroundings no? Or maybe just an attention seeker. Well I aint no doctor so don't go by what I say, but I would like to hear some expert opinion.
Is there a doctor in the house?
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Offline Professor Snape


User avatar


Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:53 pm

Posts: 247

Location: Seattle. WA

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:37 am   Post subject: Re: Perugia sentiment from one point of view...   

stewarthome2000 wrote:
[ Perugia sentiment from one point of view...

Most of the people I know in Perugia usually say something like this…”mama mia, incredibile no? che casino..ma dai Lei e’ copevole no?!”, which basically mean, “Wow its incredible this case, what a mess, but who we kidding, she is guilty!

I am amazed at how fast the women in PG are ready to say,
“bugiarda stronza, copevole, spero che Lei resta per marcire in Prigione”..basically “that lying bitch, I hope she stays and rots in Prison”.

But as we say in Italy.. “chi sa”..who knows. Take a look at OJ!

Oh and a note to FOA... the Perugians think you guys are the epitome of American arrogance. The nauseating (anti-Italian) press campaign you launched to turn sentiment towards Amanda’s innocence has incensed Perugians and many Italians. Newsflash! She is on trial in Italy not the US. Focus all the miss-spent energy in censorship and spin on her defense in the courtroom and it may actually help. Those turds you have running around spewing BS (CD, PC, AB and others) may make you feel better, but they are making things worse. Incidently, where is Joe Tacopina when the money ran out? Gone like a fart in the wind. Pitiful.


Ha! I learned some Italian tonight!! Thanks for that lesson and your humor. Isn't it awesome having the FOA & AK PR camps turning Seattle into a stinky cesspool?!

_________________
"Wizard of Healing Potions and Alibis"
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:41 am   Post subject:    

Quote:
stewarthom2000 wrote:

"Oh and a note to FOA... the Perugians think you guys are the epitome of American arrogance. The nauseating (anti-Italian) press campaign you launched to turn sentiment towards Amanda’s innocence has incensed Perugians and many Italians. Newsflash! She is on trial in Italy not the US."


If they want to raise funds they have to give some hints why she is accused as Americans also would ask "Hasn't she confessed?". That's why they are basically forced to build conspiracy theories like anti-americanism, evil-mignini, cangaroo-court and crazy-italian-justice.

(But it is interesting to note a slight change in Candace's attitude after she returned from the first two weeks of the trial.
Now she does not seem so convinced that all this is the pure invention of Mignini that will be quickly thrown out by the court. :D)
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Offline anne


User avatar


Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:04 pm

Posts: 173

Location: Berlin Kreuzberg

Highscores: 3

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:46 am   Post subject: Re: Sad Story here in the Seattle Area   

Tara wrote:
Here's a very sad story about a 43 year old man who stabbed and beat both his parents to death. He was high on crack cocaine.

****************************************************************************************

I realize that this is a bit O/T however, cocaine is easy to procure in Perugia from what I've read. I'm just sayin'. Is it possible "crack cocaine" had something to do with Meredith's murder as we have all be discussing off and on forever? Look what this guy here in Seattle did. :shock:


But these things also happen without drug influence. Considering it, this sadly happens daily. There are for examble 2 cases now in the media in germany from the same county were 2 family fathers (no relation) killed their kids and wifes. The one set his house on fire after he stabbed his 2 daughters and his wife and then run off to kill himself.
The other also stabbed them i think and killed himself.

The reason in both cases were financial problems. Nobody would have imagined this of both the fathers. People didnt even know about the financial problems, au contraire.

And about the cocaine, if one really wants it, one will find it everywhere. I dont believe its hard to come by any drug at all. You just need to find out where to go. But i dont believe they were on heavy drugs. This seems way too planned to have happened under drug influence. All the staging and cleaning. Hard to believe.
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 868

Location: New York

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:57 am   Post subject:    

Giustizia wrote:
Fast Pete wrote:
Gius, Skep has used her real name here and there for many months. It is no secret here. I have used my real name on other blogs for years. My experience is that it is more satisfying to use one's own name, it is safer in a way (you cant be outed!), and it attracts a lot of support and help. I dont know anyone who moved to using their real name on the web who regrets it. Not such a scary thing all in all.


Peter, no, it's not scary at all, I agree, and I understand your point. But I have a freelance position on the web as a content manager, with a forum in Italian and English, and I'm not interested in having anyone begin a conversation there about this case. As it is I spend a fair amount of (uncompensated) time monitoring the forums and banning i trollisti. It's strange actually - for almost ten years now /I/ have been the only person whose identity was public on my own forum, and literally thousands of people have hid behind screen names. Yet here I am now, on the other side of the screen, posting without identifying myself, at least at the outset.

But I'll use my real name if you prefer, I have nothing to hide and I'm not embarrassed by what I have to say (seeing all those anonymous posters on Perugia Shock spouting off gibberish turns me off quickly). If it lends more credibility to my comments, well I'm perfectly content to introduce myself.


Ah, that was a generic hint Gius, dont feel compelled! (As we are both in NYC maybe we could have lunch though!)

Many people have reasons to remain pseudonymous and work clash is one of the commonest. It renders a lot of forums status-free, and more focussed on the subject at hand.

But generically the point is a good one here and now. Some names at least in the open adds to our power to persuade.
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Offline stewarthome2000


User avatar


Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:47 am

Posts: 152

Location: Perugia, Italy

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:04 am   Post subject: The BS MO of the FOA   

bolint wrote:
If they want to raise funds they have to give some hints why she is accused as Americans also would ask "Hasn't she confessed?". That's why they are basically forced to build conspiracy theories like anti-americanism, evil-mignini, cangaroo-court and crazy-italian-justice.


Hah..your so right! Its a bad situation for the family, they need to raise money but no one will give a dime to them if they think she is guilty.
GREAT POINT.

I always felt sorry for the families, especially Merediths. To see them in PG under these circumstances is heartbreaking. They seem like wonderful people. And MEZ? well the huge number of friends she made in Perugia and the large vigil ceremony speak for itself. I do feel for Knox's parents, but I have nothing but contempt for the goons they have just outright lying to gain favor... and no one pissed me off more than that sycophantic CD (limelight, book deal, cha ching!) Glad to hear she learned something.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:54 am   Post subject:    

I bring up again this conversation:
At least from the trial now we know who Shaky is, he is a Moroccan from Le Chic.
But who is the guy in the first part?
Raffaele doesn't seem to know either.
Who found Amanda the job she talks about? What job? Le Chic or some earlier?

Quote:
"While at the police station on Nov4, RS popped out to get a pizza. The lovebirds were put in a room and their conversation was 'secretly' recorded.

4'40;

RS; What are you thinking about?

AK; That I don't want to be here. I want everything to be over because I want to know who is (sic d) his friends, because he doesn't have many friends. Now, it's like this, it's interesting. In fact, nobody is his friend now. because before when (his? ndr) house was here he doesn't have..., he didn't go out, he didn't speak to many people..., he was always focusing on his girlfriend. That's what he told me.

RS. (in bad English) You...because I've got many friends, if I tell everyone to look after you...or...this is the difference, I have good friends, not his friends.

6'30;

AK; (In Italian) I know, but he's a bit crazy when he's...(she hesitates, stumbles in Italian and continues in English) When he thinks about breaking off a relationship with a woman (incomprehensible)...strange to me. He says he trusts his girlfriend but he doesn't like it when he sees her talk to a man he doesn't know. Even if they've just split up...(incomprehensible). He looks at her and gets crazy. And...but then he (not clear, seems like 'He forced me')all the time. He's terrible. He says he doesn't mind seeing his girlfriend, even if he's talking to a man he doesn't know, but then he gets arrogant with me.

RS; (in English) This is ridiculous.

7'20;

AK; (In English) I don't like him anymore frankly. I mean; it was nice of him to find me a job and I liked it when he played the guitar with...when I went home (the missing word isn't clearly audible because of backgound voices and sounds. It could be 'with me', 'with Meredith' or something else)

RS; Hang on, are we talking about...(he hesitates) your friend from Le Chic or ...

AK; (She interrupts him) Friend from Le Chic?

RS; I'm not talking about the one that...

AK; Who?

RS; I'm mean the one that...

AK; Spiros?

RS; No. Shaky, Shaky, eh, eh (sniggering)

AK; I don't like him. He's not...I detest that man (sniggering). He tried it on with me.

RS; (after an interruption) Yes, OK, and...if he says something (?) ...with friends (?) Do you think he's...because I'm just..."
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:06 am   Post subject:    

If Nov 4, then it was after Amanda had written written and sent the email in the morning and was questioned again in the afternoon:

Corriere:
" Ms Knox was questioned at 2.45 pm on 4 November. She did not deny that there were visitors. “The Internet Café man is Argentinian and his name is Juve. He’s been to our house at least five times. The last time was on 31 October. He knew Meredith because he met her at the bar with me. Juve never tried to hit on me. He’s got this habit of hugging and touching even when he’s not drunk. The other men I brought back are one called Spyros, only once in October when he met Meredith; Daniele from Rome – I don’t know his phone number – who came twice. The second time said hello to Meredith and spoke to her”. "
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Offline Catnip


User avatar


Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:08 am

Posts: 2997

Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:05 am   Post subject: Effect of reading MissRepresented   

The Girl in the Fireplace has just finished TV – so sad a story, the episode about Madame du Pompadour. The music played a large part, gently stirring the emotions so deeply, and then I remembered something Raffaele had written, a long time ago now, about how he and Amanda met at a concert:

Quote:

Then I sat down next to her to talk and I noticed that her impressions of the music were strange because she wasn’t concentrating on the emotions that it was giving rise to, but on the change in tempo. Fast, slow, fast.
Raffaele, on meeting Amanda at an unspecified concert

Quoted in Fiorenza Sarzanini, Amanda e gli altri (2008), pp104-105


The emotional disconnect was known about and commented on from day one (if the story of the meeting is true). There were just no professionals around to recognise it.

MissRepresented’s blog definitely is required reading.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:58 am   Post subject:    

bolint wrote:
I bring up again this conversation:
At least from the trial now we know who Shaky is, he is a Moroccan from Le Chic.
But who is the guy in the first part?
Raffaele doesn't seem to know either.
Who found Amanda the job she talks about? What job? Le Chic or some earlier?

Quote:
"While at the police station on Nov4, RS popped out to get a pizza. The lovebirds were put in a room and their conversation was 'secretly' recorded.

4'40;

RS; What are you thinking about?

AK; That I don't want to be here. I want everything to be over because I want to know who is (sic d) his friends, because he doesn't have many friends. Now, it's like this, it's interesting. In fact, nobody is his friend now. because before when (his? ndr) house was here he doesn't have..., he didn't go out, he didn't speak to many people..., he was always focusing on his girlfriend. That's what he told me.

RS. (in bad English) You...because I've got many friends, if I tell everyone to look after you...or...this is the difference, I have good friends, not his friends.

6'30;

AK; (In Italian) I know, but he's a bit crazy when he's...(she hesitates, stumbles in Italian and continues in English) When he thinks about breaking off a relationship with a woman (incomprehensible)...strange to me. He says he trusts his girlfriend but he doesn't like it when he sees her talk to a man he doesn't know. Even if they've just split up...(incomprehensible). He looks at her and gets crazy. And...but then he (not clear, seems like 'He forced me')all the time. He's terrible. He says he doesn't mind seeing his girlfriend, even if he's talking to a man he doesn't know, but then he gets arrogant with me.

RS; (in English) This is ridiculous.

7'20;

AK; (In English) I don't like him anymore frankly. I mean; it was nice of him to find me a job and I liked it when he played the guitar with...when I went home (the missing word isn't clearly audible because of backgound voices and sounds. It could be 'with me', 'with Meredith' or something else)

RS; Hang on, are we talking about...(he hesitates) your friend from Le Chic or ...

AK; (She interrupts him) Friend from Le Chic?

RS; I'm not talking about the one that...

AK; Who?

RS; I'm mean the one that...

AK; Spiros?

RS; No. Shaky, Shaky, eh, eh (sniggering)

AK; I don't like him. He's not...I detest that man (sniggering). He tried it on with me.

RS; (after an interruption) Yes, OK, and...if he says something (?) ...with friends (?) Do you think he's...because I'm just..."



Personally, I think she's talking about Patrick.

Quote:
AK; (In English) I don't like him anymore frankly. I mean; it was nice of him to find me a job and I liked it when he played the guitar with...when I went home (the missing word isn't clearly audible because of backgound voices and sounds. It could be 'with me', 'with Meredith' or something else)

RS; Hang on, are we talking about...(he hesitates) your friend from Le Chic or ...


ISTM There is a misunderstaning here around the word "find" me a job possibly exacerbated by "played guitar"

Raffaele was relatively new to Perugia, there's no reason at all that he'd know Patrick's history. Patrick's university connections were with the University for Foreigners and not Raffaele's Perugia University. There's no suggestion that Raffaele had ever been in Le Chic except for a couple of occasions with Amanda. I suspect that to Raffaele, Patrick was simply the bar ownere of Le Chic.

It's perfectly acceptable to me if Amanda is referring to Patrick when she says "It was nice of him to find me a job". It infers he employed her although he probably didn't need to.

But would that make sense to an Italian?

Patrick was a musician. Piano was his thing but it's known that he could turn his hand to a guitar. Did Raffaele know this or was Patrick just the guy behind the bar??

Lumumba, [s]who is married[/s] with a young child, opened a bar and restaurant called Le Chic on a narrow street in the town centre in August - the same month that Meredith arrived to begin a short Italian course.

A few weeks ago he employed her housemate Amanda Knox to help him with promotional work.

He is well-known among the student community for helping to organise musical events and concerts, often performing with his own band playing a mix of contemporary and reggae music....


Daily Mail - 07 November 2007


Patrick isn't married.

in an exclusive interview with The Mail on Sunday, Patrick reveals his feelings towards the infamous "Foxy Knoxy", and tells how the seemingly quintessential American turned into a tormented monster eaten up by anger towards both himself and Meredith.

"She was angry I was firing her and wanted revenge," he says. "By the end, she hated me. But I don't even think she's evil....

"I'd just opened Le Chic and one of my friends said he knew an American girl who needed work, so I told her to come along to the bar."... he soon realised she was more interested in making herself available to his male customers than making herself useful at the bar.

"Every time I looked round she was flirting with a different guy," he says.

"I'd tell her off, she'd smile sweetly and apologise, and be back at it within five minutes..."Sometimes, when I tried to get her back to work, the men would become rowdy. Once I was told to mind my own business and butt out of Amanda's.

"She was always causing trouble. Even my girlfriend thought she was strange. Whenever she met her she'd death stare her and turn her nose up. I don't think she was jealous ? she never came on to me. She just felt so threatened by other women."...

It was a couple of weeks before Patrick met Sollecito, a doctor's son from Southern Italy, when he came into Le Chic.

"He was with a couple of friends, drinking rum and pear juice," he says. "After about four rounds I spotted Amanda flirting with him. Needless to say, I wasn't surprised."

What he was surprised to discover, however, was that she had started to date Sollecito. "I'd always thought her flirting was harmless," he says. "But I couldn't believe she was two-timing her American boyfriend."

He next saw Meredith at a party he threw in the club for his employees a couple of days later.
"She made everyone two rounds of her special mojitos," he says.

"She was sparkly and cheery and lifted everyone's spirits. I bumped into her again in town soon after. I asked her if she wanted to have a spell behind the bar when I next had a female DJ playing, as a kind of ladies' night.

"She jumped at the chance, although she'd stopped coming into Le Chic, and I heard she wasn't hanging around with Amanda much either. I wasn't surprised. The two couldn't have been more different."

Amanda, meanwhile, was becoming increasingly erratic. "Her moods started swinging from docile and lazy to hyperactive and flighty.

"I knew [s]she smoked cannabis[/s] and it was impossible to predict which one she'd be.

"I told her I'd asked Meredith to come and work for me and her face dropped and there was a big silence. Then she said, 'Fine,' and stropped off. I knew then she was extremely jealous of Meredith. She obviously thought she was invading her territory."

By Tuesday, October 30, his patience ran out. He told Amanda she could carry on handing out club flyers, but could no longer work in the bar.

"She looked at me blankly and walked away," he says. "The club was busy and I didn't see her again that evening."

The next day Amanda attended a Hallowe'en party at the club, knocking back the free red wine. "She was all over two American boys," Patrick says. "There was no sign of Sollecito and I didn't see her leave."

At 3am he locked up and went on to another club, where he bumped into Meredith. "I mentioned the idea of her working for me again," he says.

"She smiled sweetly and said she couldn't wait, and she'd bring all her friends back to my club for me."
That was the last he heard of either girl, until 6pm on Saturday November 3, when a couple of friends walked into his club.

"They asked me if I'd heard that Amanda's English friend had been murdered. And when they said she was the dark-skinned girl, my heart stopped." He called Amanda, who quietly confirmed that Meredith was dead.

"I expected her to be distraught, hysterical and sobbing," he says. "Surely, just because they'd grown apart didn't mean she wouldn't care?

"But instead she sounded weird. Her tone was completely flat and she sounded calm and unaffected. She said she was talking to the police and hung up. I was shaken and sick with sadness. Things like this just didn't happen in Perugia."

Over the next couple of days the murder stunned the town's 162,000 inhabitants. "It was all we could talk about, and we were all subdued," says Patrick, who handed out flyers for a candlelit vigil in her memory.

"Everyone became tense and suspicious. Everyone except Amanda, who'd gone into a kind of autopilot mode. I saw her a couple of times and all she talked about was the police, and how stressful the ordeal was for her."....



Patrick embraces his Polish-born girlfriend Aleksandra Kania and clutches his son 19-month-old son Davide

The Mail on Sunday - 25th November 2007

It also seems to me that Patrick had been concentrating on his girlfriend for the last two or three years and he didn't have enough good friends to keep the bar open in the months following. I suspect Patrick's girlfriend sometimes did talk to strange men in Le Chic. He was gonna have to get used to it since he'd just opened a bar

AK; (In Italian) I know, but he's a bit crazy when he's...(she hesitates, stumbles in Italian and continues in English) When he thinks about breaking off a relationship with a woman (incomprehensible)...strange to me. He says he trusts his girlfriend but he doesn't like it when he sees her talk to a man he doesn't know. Even if they've just split up...(incomprehensible). He looks at her and gets crazy. And...but then he (not clear, seems like 'He forced me')all the time. He's terrible. He says he doesn't mind seeing his girlfriend, even if he's talking to a man he doesn't know, but then he gets arrogant with me.

She's his partner Amanda, you were a paid employee.

And the path of true love isn't always smooth.






Other items to note:

Patrick met Meredith in the Domus on Halloween sometime after 3am and he offered her the job. Meredith woke up less than 12 hours later and spoke to Amanda for the last time before her murder. 3 or 4 hours later Patrick sent Amanda an SMS to say he didn't need her to come in to work.

Patrick and Meredith apparently both had similar opinions about Amanda two-timing DJ.

Amanda's moods started swinging from docile and lazy to hyperactive and flighty - Cannabis will make you docile and lazy. It takes something else to make you hyperactive and flighty.

Patrick apparently agreed with Merediths friends about Amanda's attitude after Meredith's death.


Last edited by Brian S. on Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Offline Catnip


User avatar


Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:08 am

Posts: 2997

Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:09 pm   Post subject:    

anne wrote:
Hey there...

yesterday i've watched the powerpoint presentations of Kermit (:idea:).
And i think it was somewhere there where i saw pictures or a video of some men outside Filomenas window reaching over the balustrade, testing whether they could reach the window. They also filmed a knife laying on the ground and handkerchiefs (?) with blood on them. Now im totally confused because i cant find it anymore. It definitely was on TJMK. I guess :?

Can you maybe give me the link to it? I dont know where exactly that was posted anymore. Maybe you do.

Thannks in advance :D


Anne,

What you describe sounds very similar to the slides near the end of the Floor Plan presentation (showing inside and outside the cottage):


slide 37 view looking into terrace from outside; ILE person visible in hall with arms raised
slide 46 Mignini and company outside on laneway, near Filomena's window, but looking at the distance to the ground below
slide 47 butter knife and nearby tissue
slide 49 tissue on road

The numbers are my counting. I'm not very good at arithmetic, so they may be 1 or 2 out.

The PPS direct link is:
[ Link

It is on the TJMK presentations page [link at section titled "Powerpoints #5: A Graphical Tour Of The Crime Scene Itself".
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Offline anne


User avatar


Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:04 pm

Posts: 173

Location: Berlin Kreuzberg

Highscores: 3

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:22 pm   Post subject:    

Catnip wrote:

Anne,

What you describe sounds very similar to the slides near the end of the Floor Plan presentation (showing inside and outside the cottage):


slide 37 view looking into terrace from outside; ILE person visible in hall with arms raised
slide 46 Mignini and company outside on laneway, near Filomena's window, but looking at the distance to the ground below
slide 47 butter knife and nearby tissue
slide 49 tissue on road

The numbers are my counting. I'm not very good at arithmetic, so they may be 1 or 2 out.

The PPS direct link is:
[ Link

It is on the TJMK presentations page [link at section titled "Powerpoints #5: A Graphical Tour Of The Crime Scene Itself".


Oh thats so kind of you :) Thanks a lot, that was exactly what i've meant.
Was late at night when i'd watched that so i missed some details.
What is that Butter-Knife about? I've never heard of it before. Everyone only ever talks about the one found at RS's place. Is it one of the murder weapons? Did they find any DNA on the handle of this one? And the blood on the handkerchiefs, to whom does it belong (if its blood)?
Or will we find out about that when the trial continues?

And: Will Patrick be a witness? And one point i also dont understand, if Edda is a witness and the trial is held chronological then why wasnt she heard in front of court yet?
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:44 pm   Post subject:    

Quote:
Catnip quoted Lumumba saying:
"I'd just opened Le Chic and one of my friends said he knew an American girl who needed work, so I told her to come along to the bar."... "


This must be our mystery guy.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:54 pm   Post subject:    

Lumumba on Amanda's meeting Sollecito:
"He was with a couple of friends, drinking rum and pear juice," he says. "After about four rounds I spotted Amanda flirting with him."

Not exactly a concert, but it may not be their first meeting.


But when was it if they met as late as Oct 25?

Amanda worked on Tuesdays and Thirsdays at le Chic.

Oct 25 Thursday, Concert (per Raffaele)
Perhaps after the concert Amanda went to work and Raffaele also went to Le Chic?

Oct 30 Tuesday (when Lumumba allegedly fired her)

Nov 1 Cancelled work, murder

???
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Offline FinnMacCool


User avatar


Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:42 am

Posts: 299

Location: Cionn tSáile, Poblacht na hÉireann

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:56 pm   Post subject:    

bolint wrote:
" I also recall reading that the postal police heard the machine running when they arrived but I dont know if this is official. "

Frank, about two weeks ago, vowed that he would post something on the washing machine the following days.

I'm afraid that post will be overly sophisticated and incomprehensibly detailed. :D


Hmm, let me try:

You might think like maybe the communications police investigators are experts only in cellphones and internets, even if they can't find Via della Pergola by putting their fingers on a map. But no, it seems like these guys have also got some kind of special knowledge about washing machines, like if it's made by Zanussi or Bosch they can tell just by putting their hands on it, they can know if it's warm, just how a doctor can tell when a cadaver is died, you need to bring a postal police guy to do a job like this... [continues for several paragraphs.]

735 comments.

Anonymous said: Great post, Frank. Let's see Mignini try to wiggle his way out of this one.

Comment deleted This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

HWilken said Free Amanda! The dirty old Etruscans did it. Delenda est Mignini!

Comment deleted This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

Comment deleted This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

Anonymous said: Hey, Anonymous! How much you get paid to write that cr@p? Amanda is guilty like hell!

Anonymous said: Oh yeah? Why don't you back to your own forum?

Comment deleted This post has been removed by a blog administrator.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:02 pm   Post subject:    

bolint wrote:
Quote:
Catnip quoted Lumumba saying:
"I'd just opened Le Chic and one of my friends said he knew an American girl who needed work, so I told her to come along to the bar."... "


This must be our mystery guy.


It could be that guy which is why I highlighted it. But I can't recall any of Patrick's friends ever being named as such.

Personally, I think the rest of the conversation makes it sound much more like Patrick himself, and as I explained I don't have a problem with Amanda using the language "It was nice of him to find me a job" when talking about Patrick himself.

It's quite possible for an English speaker to use those words but I think it may well be those same words understood in a translated literal sense which caused Raffaele's confusion about just who she was talking about.


Last edited by Brian S. on Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline GreenWyvern


User avatar


Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:41 pm

Posts: 252

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:02 pm   Post subject:    

Brian S. wrote:
Patrick apparently agreed with Merediths friends about Amanda's attitude after Meredith's death.

It seems like everyone (except FOA) agrees that there is some serious lack of emotion in Amanda, even Raffaele, as Catnip quoted:

Quote:
Then I sat down next to her to talk and I noticed that her impressions of the music were strange because she wasn’t concentrating on the emotions that it was giving rise to, but on the change in tempo. Fast, slow, fast.
Raffaele, on meeting Amanda at an unspecified concert

Quoted in Fiorenza Sarzanini, Amanda e gli altri (2008), pp104-105

This emotional disconnect is also obvious to anyone watching the trial.

Now if Amanda has some serious psychiatric/sociopathic problems, that in itself doesn't indicate her guilt. But taken along with drug usage, it does go some way to answering the question of lack of motive. Not much motive is needed for a sociopath on drugs - it's easy to believe that things could have gotten out of hand.

My feeling is that Amanda will be found guilty, but will end up in a psychiatric ward rather than prison.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:06 pm   Post subject:    

:D :D :D
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:07 pm   Post subject:    

The previous was to Finn's post.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:09 pm   Post subject:    

Sorry, Brian, I overlooked that you posted it.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:11 pm   Post subject:    

Brian wrote:
"But I can't recall any of Patrick's friends ever being named as such. "

It was written that "half town", he was popular.
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Offline nowo


Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 12:35 pm

Posts: 186

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:15 pm   Post subject:    

There has been talk elsewhere of the Postal Police driving around getting lost etc. Just reviewing Kermit's presentation of the layout of Via Pergola 7, a couple of pages from the start there is a good shot of the gates with a large and blatant '7' on it. The gates are angled in a way that makes it easier for people to see the number when coming from the direction in which the Postal Police did.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:17 pm   Post subject:    

bolint wrote:
Brian wrote:
"But I can't recall any of Patrick's friends ever being named as such. "

It was written that "half town", he was popular.


I know he was popular, especially with the student population(not his age group) but that doesn't mean he had a lot of close friends.

Patrick's dealings with the University, the concerts he arranged etc. and the bar he decided to open meant that he had to make himself "professionally popular" around Perugia.

But a lot of popular famous people will tell you they are lonely in their personal life. They don't have any close friends.
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Offline Michael

Site Admin


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Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:23 pm   Post subject: Butter Knife   

anne wrote:
Catnip wrote:

Anne,

What you describe sounds very similar to the slides near the end of the Floor Plan presentation (showing inside and outside the cottage):


slide 37 view looking into terrace from outside; ILE person visible in hall with arms raised
slide 46 Mignini and company outside on laneway, near Filomena's window, but looking at the distance to the ground below
slide 47 butter knife and nearby tissue
slide 49 tissue on road

The numbers are my counting. I'm not very good at arithmetic, so they may be 1 or 2 out.

The PPS direct link is:
[ Link

It is on the TJMK presentations page [link at section titled "Powerpoints #5: A Graphical Tour Of The Crime Scene Itself".


Oh thats so kind of you :) Thanks a lot, that was exactly what i've meant.
Was late at night when i'd watched that so i missed some details.
What is that Butter-Knife about? I've never heard of it before. Everyone only ever talks about the one found at RS's place. Is it one of the murder weapons? Did they find any DNA on the handle of this one? And the blood on the handkerchiefs, to whom does it belong (if its blood)?
Or will we find out about that when the trial continues?

And: Will Patrick be a witness? And one point i also dont understand, if Edda is a witness and the trial is held chronological then why wasnt she heard in front of court yet?




Hi Anne :) Yes...the butter knife...interesting story that. A few weeks after Raffaele's arrest, Raffaele apparently told his lawyers that there was a knife in the garden of the cottage. His lawyers arrived at the cottage and then went straight to the location of the knife pointing it out triumphantly, whilst at the same time lambasting the police for missing it in their sweep. This was all a short time after the discovery of the kitchen knife I believe. The police tested the knife and announced it to not be connected to the murder. At the time, many of us smelled a rat. It is strange that the police would miss someing in their very close search of the cottage area, yet Raffaele who had only been to the cottage a couple of times as a visitor had spotted it and was able to recall exactly where so well, that he could direct his lawyers straight to it. A common opinion at the time was that this knife was a defence plant. As for the bloody tissues, we have heard very little about these. They were strewn about outside the cottage and early reports stated a couple were found inside the cottage (the latter has never been confirmed). It has been a common belief that the blood on those is in fact blood from the downstairs cat, although obviously, the cat would not have put its blood on the tissues, but would have been the result of human interaction. Just as the cat wouldn't have put its blood on the downstairs light switch.

_________________
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:56 pm   Post subject:    

"But a lot of popular famous people will tell you they are lonely in their personal life. They don't have any close friends. "

May be, but Amanda doesn't speak about "close friends".

And Raffaele offers that his friends will look after Amanda.
It sounds like protection against some threat.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:37 pm   Post subject:    

Finn MacCool wrote:

Quote:
bolint wrote:
" I also recall reading that the postal police heard the machine running when they arrived but I dont know if this is official. "

Frank, about two weeks ago, vowed that he would post something on the washing machine the following days.

I'm afraid that post will be overly sophisticated and incomprehensibly detailed.


Hmm, let me try:

You might think like maybe the communications police investigators are experts only in cellphones and internets, even if they can't find Via della Pergola by putting their fingers on a map. But no, it seems like these guys have also got some kind of special knowledge about washing machines, like if it's made by Zanussi or Bosch they can tell just by putting their hands on it, they can know if it's warm, just how a doctor can tell when a cadaver is died, you need to bring a postal police guy to do a job like this... [continues for several paragraphs.]

735 comments.

Anonymous said: Great post, Frank. Let's see Mignini try to wiggle his way out of this one.

Comment deleted This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

HWilken said Free Amanda! The dirty old Etruscans did it. Delenda est Mignini!

Comment deleted This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

Comment deleted This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

Anonymous said: Hey, Anonymous! How much you get paid to write that cr@p? Amanda is guilty like hell!

Anonymous said: Oh yeah? Why don't you back to your own forum?

Comment deleted This post has been removed by a blog administrator.


And to think that we have been scratching our heads and wondering what Frank Sfarzo's real name is when the answer was right under our noses all this time. :)

Who do you do for an encore? ;)
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Offline Greggy


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Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:10 pm

Posts: 208

Location: Southern USA

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:52 pm   Post subject:    

Gee Fast Pete,

You are probably the quintessential web expert on this horrific murder, and your site is one of the most comprehensive ones on the web about the case, but you need to chill.

Two points in your diatribe about me are inaccurate: (1) I adore the Italians and their way of life. I wish our great country had more of an Italian approach in its everyday perspective. The more I learn about the Italian justice system, the more I appreciate its subtlety. My comment about a lunch meeting was me reminiscing about business meetings I have had in Italy in the past, where the official meeting lasted less than an hour and the lunch meeting, where everything was decided, lasted three hours and contained wonderful delicacies. When can I go back. (2) your comment that I am a drama queen that flounces is inaccurate. I may skip, but I never flounce.
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 868

Location: New York

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:10 pm   Post subject:    

Greggy wrote:
You are probably the quintessential web expert on this horrific murder, and your site is one of the most comprehensive ones on the web about the case, but you need to chill.


After we trusted you and allowed you to post on TJMK, you flounced off TJMK in a very childish way, with a huge parting post there intended to do the most damage you possibly could.

Now you are here on PMF again childishly posting inaccurate and misleading remarks about things that you have read on TJMK. Your comments on the DNA post we have up are the single most dumb collection of googled wisdom I have ever seen on this case.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:19 pm   Post subject:    

Giustizia wrote:

Quote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
There is a brief mention of the FOA campaign and the Nadeau/Vogt piece on a blog called PR blog (link above). Anne Bremner posted an FOA press release as a rejoinder in the comments section, and I have posted my reaction to that. It was awaiting moderation, but may be up now.


It blows my mind that Anne Bemner, a U.S. attorney, can make this outrageously false statement without smirking: "I was asked by 'Friends of Amanda' to help turn around this supertanker of bad press over in Italy and get the truth out about Amanda's innocence," said Seattle attorney, Anne Bremner. "The prosecution has no forensic evidence at all. Zero. None."

Right. And the sun rotates around the earth, Anne.

Quoted in the West Seattle Herald article Friends, family show support for Amanda Knox on February 1, 2009, Knox but w/no indication when Bremner actually made the unequivocal lie. Say something enough times, and one begins to believe it might be true. That's a sure sign of self-delusion. I guess Bremner shares some of the same personality quirks that AK does.

BTW, Skeptical Bystander, I respect the fact that you actually outed yourself and used your real name.


As Pete mentioned, I have already been outed, so to speak. In fact, I never tried to hide the connection between my screen handle and my "street" name. :) But I want to make it clear that nobody here has to post under their real name; nor will anyone's real name (insofar as I might have that information) ever be handed over or revealed.

There has been some pressure of late - in online comments, for example - to get people to stop blogging and posting about this case if they aren't on the Free Amanda side, and one of the forms it has taken is to criticize the use of pseudonyms or anonymous comments.

The issue of anonymity, good or bad, has a long history on the world wide web, and we don't need to get into that here. People use pseudonyms for all sorts of reasons; the use of a real name is no guarantee that one is honest or ethical. Look at the recent mysterious two-step date change on a certain journalist's CV, for example. Nothing honest or ethical about that - I've gotta believe the Society for Professional Journalists would not approve.

I take issue with Frank Sfarzo using a pseudonym and yet claiming to have expertise as a journalist. Why? Because there is no way to check his credentials. It is normal to check people's credentials when they speak as an expert or lay claim to specific and relevant experience. For example, Frank claims that in a past life he was a reporter and covered true crime, among other things. Really? How could anyone ever check to see if this is true? Anyone can claim to have been a crime reporter: if it can't be checked out, then one has no right to make the claim.

In Frank's case, he gave his "name" (stage name, it turns out) and profession (film professor) to a reporter from the Seattle Times, who duly noted and filed for publication. Then Frank gave his "name" (same stage name) and profession (journalist this time) to a journalist for the BBC, who duly noted and filed for publication. Incidentally, I sent Frank an email when I saw that he was a film professor and he just laughed, saying he had to make something up. Had to make something up? Why?

In my case, certain of the more zealous Free Amanda people made the not at all hidden but not flaunted connection between my handle and me and started posting it all over the place like it was some big scoop. Then came the photos, links to personal blog, comments about my appearance, my husband, etc. You know what? So what? I have no deep dark secrets (at least none that I have published on the internet) and have not lied about my professional qualificiations (or lack thereof). I have given out my CV to anyone who has requested it and the dates check out. I was tempted to say I had gotten a PhD in philosophy from Harvard instead of an MA from the University of Washington, but I resisted comme une grande. I'd like to claim fluency in Chinese, but the fact is I can no longer get much further than "hello, how are you, have you eaten today, I am American."

I guess what I'm saying is what Kurt Vonnegut said: you are who (what) you pretend to be so be careful who (what) you pretend to be.

And I believe in karma: what goes around does come around - eventually.

Speaking of names and handles, if you see anyone signing as lectrice it is probably me, unless my friends decide to steal that one too (there is a fake SkepticalBystander out there, the one who posted my photo and stuff). On The Daily Beast, I am lectrice56, simply because I was unable to sign up as SB. There was no intention to deceive or hide. Just sayin'.
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 868

Location: New York

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:26 pm   Post subject:    

nowo wrote:
There has been talk elsewhere of the Postal Police driving around getting lost etc. Just reviewing Kermit's presentation of the layout of Via Pergola 7, a couple of pages from the start there is a good shot of the gates with a large and blatant '7' on it. The gates are angled in a way that makes it easier for people to see the number when coming from the direction in which the Postal Police did.


Hi Nowo, I found it pretty easy to flash right by the house on the first pass.

I arrived late and didnt have on me in the car the street name and number so I was cruising all of those ring-roads outside the wall to the north and the east.

It is not really very intuitive that there is a house down there, and the gate would be visible only for a second.

I must say that the first time I did realize I was there at the house I felt a feeling coming over me still hard to describe, maybe like a chill when one's hair stands on end.

Here around NYC the cops all have GPS in the cop-cars and get straight to the address they want. The Italian cop cars seemed quite small in comparison and not all of them new, and they may not have been so well equipped.

The communication police would have followed the same route I did, I think, up from the railway station area and around the ring-roads. Where the mobiles were tossed is along that route, too, about a kilometer to the west.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:06 pm   Post subject:    

Fast Pete wrote:

Quote:
Greggy wrote:
You are probably the quintessential web expert on this horrific murder, and your site is one of the most comprehensive ones on the web about the case, but you need to chill.


After we trusted you and allowed you to post on TJMK, you flounced off TJMK in a very childish way, with a huge parting post there intended to do the most damage you possibly could.

Now you are here on PMF again childishly posting inaccurate and misleading remarks about things that you have read on TJMK. Your comments on the DNA post we have up are the single most dumb collection of googled wisdom I have ever seen on this case.


If you want to get into a personal - ahem - discussion, please do it in PMs. Whatever happened on TJMK happened on TJMK, not here. I don't have the expertise to discuss the wisdom of Greggy's post about DNA; my guess is that Raffaele's defense team will be contesting the DNA tooth and nail because they absolutely must.

I was more interested in Greggy's observation that people here are moving toward Raffaele being centrally involved as opposed to being more of a clean-up guy. I'm not sure that's the case. My own perception (could be wrong) is that people seem very ambivalent about Raffaele's exact role.
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 868

Location: New York

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:12 pm   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Whatever happened on TJMK happened on TJMK, not here.


It didnt happen on TJMK.

Greggy's comments on Nicki's post were right here - because, of course, he had already flounced off over there.

Pete
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:39 pm   Post subject:    

Bolint wrote:

Quote:
"But a lot of popular famous people will tell you they are lonely in their personal life. They don't have any close friends. "

May be, but Amanda doesn't speak about "close friends".

And Raffaele offers that his friends will look after Amanda.
It sounds like protection against some threat.


Did I miss something? Where does Raffaele say/write this? Who are Raffaele's friends? Does he have a lot of support from people back home? Who were his close friends in Perugia?
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Offline friend of Peltier


User avatar


Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:45 pm

Posts: 6

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:41 pm   Post subject:    

Hey, lets all get along.

What is the point of an open forum for discussion if we cannot openly discuss. I welcome an open discussion of all aspects of the case. I WOULD draw the line at people who are not fairly discussing the case, ie boiler plate talking points that are NEVER deviated from, but would expect that anyone here can, and should be able to speculate (fairly) on any aspect of the case, as long as they are OPEN to hearing the reasons others hold different opinions.

Life is a two way street. If we dig in and censor legitimate speculation that differs from the overal consensus of the majority of posters we arrive at a place not much better than the PI. If we resort to name calling, we arrive at a place similar to Franks place.

If we cannot debate, why are we here. If we cannot disprove theories with facts, the theory remains open and possible.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:50 pm   Post subject:    

FOP wrote:

Quote:
I WOULD draw the line at people who are not fairly discussing the case, ie boiler plate talking points that are NEVER deviated from.



Are you trying to scare us by dredging up scary images of Charlie Wilkes and his kiwi sidekick O8? :shock:
Why is there no emoticon for "frightened out of my wits"?

It's bad enough learning that Frank Sfarzo and Finn MacCool are the same guy. [EDIT: This is a joke, based on finn's excellent imitation of Frank - I did not mean to frighten anyone!] What's next? Harry Wilkens is Doug Preston? :lol:


Last edited by Skeptical Bystander on Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:03 pm   Post subject:    

Nowo wrote:

Quote:
There has been talk elsewhere of the Postal Police driving around getting lost etc. Just reviewing Kermit's presentation of the layout of Via Pergola 7, a couple of pages from the start there is a good shot of the gates with a large and blatant '7' on it. The gates are angled in a way that makes it easier for people to see the number when coming from the direction in which the Postal Police did.


I have yet to see anyone produce proof that they were driving around getting lost. I view that as pure speculation on the part of someone who champions the little people against the mighty and powerful.

I can imagine a first-time visitor having a little trouble getting oriented. Pete has first-hand experience and describes his first view of the house movingly above. But it seems to me that the postal police (or any LE) would have a GPS or not need one. Perugia has 162,000 inhabitants. Rome it isn't. Frank himself claims to have been aware of the house long before it became the house of horrors BECAUSE of its relatively isolated location. Piazza Grimana is right nearby and a known hangout, right? How likely is it the police had no clue? Not very.

Unless it emerges in court that they got lost and drove around for ages.
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Online The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2309

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:21 pm   Post subject:    

The whole debate about whether the postal police got lost on the way to the cottage is completely pointless. Sollecito has already admitted that he hadn't called the police when the postal police turned up at the cottage.
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Offline Rhonda


Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 6:23 pm

Posts: 44

Location: Northern California

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:34 pm   Post subject:    

Skep wrote>
"It's bad enough learning that Frank Sfarzo and Finn MacCool are the same guy"

What??? Is this true?
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:37 pm   Post subject:    

Rhonda wrote:

Quote:
Skep wrote>
"It's bad enough learning that Frank Sfarzo and Finn MacCool are the same guy"

What??? Is this true?



NO!!!! Just kidding - scroll up and see Finn's brilliant imitation.... :)
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Offline Rhonda


Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 6:23 pm

Posts: 44

Location: Northern California

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:47 pm   Post subject:    

Oh...

Thanks, freaked out for a minute.

Yes, it was a great imitation. Thought I had mistakengly wandered into Shocks comment section.
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Online The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2309

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:10 pm   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
NO!!!! Just kidding - scroll up and see Finn's brilliant imitation.... :)


Finn was imitating Frank? I was about to say that it was one of Frank's better posts. My personal favourite was his Chinese Whispers "interview" with Knox. I just hope they didn't communicate in English...the interview would have taken months.

I wonder what new visitors made of his blog the first time they read it after it was linked on the BBC website. Perugia Shock is a very apt name for his blog; the visitors would have been in shock after reading the comments section.

NASA have more chance of finding intelligent life on Mars than they do on Frank's or Dempsey's blogs.
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Offline FinnMacCool


User avatar


Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:42 am

Posts: 299

Location: Cionn tSáile, Poblacht na hÉireann

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:18 pm   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Who do you do for an encore? ;)


Just asking that question demonstrates your naivety. It's noteworthy how many seemingly intelligent people will just swallow a line because someone in authority says it. You act like this case is some kind of complex puzzle, but actually students of the genre have seen it all before.

Study the case files and it will become clear, even to you. Only one suspect fits the profile of a lone killer - blood-sucking vampire, will suck your blood, has admitted as much on YouTube. The other two suspects are just cute-as-pie college kids - aren't even drunk, have only taken one-and-a-half-shots according to their own admission on YouTube. I call that a railroad job from hell.

But these things happen in the States too. I suggest you research the Charles Manson Family killings, which Donny and Marie Osmond were sentenced to fifteen years hard labor for after a confession was beaten out of them by none other than a young Italian cop by the name of Giuliani Mignini.

I personally have seen a crime-scene video in which the same Mignini is clearly seen letting Rudy Guede in through the bedroom window. Ask yourselves why this video has not yet seen the light of day.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:26 pm   Post subject:    

Finn MacCool wrote:

Quote:
But these things happen in the States too. I suggest you research the Charles Manson Family killings, which Donny and Marie Osmond were sentenced to fifteen years hard labor for after a confession was beaten out of them by none other than a young Italian cop by the name of Giuliani Mignini.

I personally have seen a crime-scene video in which the same Mignini is clearly seen letting Rudy Guede in through the bedroom window. Ask yourselves why this video has not yet seen the light of day.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: And some karma too!


Geez, Finn, now you're channeling the entire shadowy steering committee of FOA, except for Paul Ciolino, who is frozen and still sitting on the deck at Salty's (I can see him from my office window!). :lol:

As for Donny and Marie, now I understand why they have had extensive plastic surgery. It wasn't to further their careers, it was to undo the damage inflicted by my own Uncle GiGi. :o

And that video? The one that was "disappeared"? Certain people have said I can have a look if I am willing to meet them on the deck at Salty's some evening after dark. Should I go for it?!
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Online The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2309

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:31 pm   Post subject:    

Hi Finn,

I'm very impressed by your imitations of Frank and Charlies Wilkes. You have a standing ovation.

I'm looking forward to your Candace Dempsey impersonation. It will bring the house down.
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Offline FinnMacCool


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Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:42 am

Posts: 299

Location: Cionn tSáile, Poblacht na hÉireann

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:06 pm   Post subject:    

The Machine wrote:
Hi Finn,

I'm very impressed by your imitations of Frank and Charlies Wilkes. You have a standing ovation.

I'm looking forward to your Candace Dempsey impersonation. It will bring the house down.


Thanks, TM, I needed a laugh. I don't mean to be rude please read the guidelines at the top of the page. Funnycat is an expert if you need help understanding where you may have contravened US libel laws. Basta!

Here is an excellent story on the court proceedings. Sorry, I do not have time today to translate it but here is a bad Google translation.

Raffaele Urge represented by avocado Julie Hello said &ty Perugia &ty Chief Prosecutor Mignini is the Monster of Florence and is wanted for the Giacomo the Ripper murder’s in Londra in the 1880s.

Doug Preston, the respected crime writer, confirms that Prosecutor Mignini fits the scenario of the typical crime perp. He sent me this note in an email (please note these are NOT my words): "That b*****d locked me up for a couple of hours and asked me why I was nosing round the Mostro di Firenze case."

That gave me a laugh. My Calabrian mama told me to go and make some spaghetti and meatballs and forget the whole thing - hey, that's what we do in a typical Italian family. We shout and we forgive. But when I was in Perugia last week Signor Mignini was most gracious and asked for my autograph. Really this case is a mystery, except that Amanda Knox is innocent, that's the only thing that's perfectly clear at this stage.

Readers, your thoughts?
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:18 pm   Post subject:    

Finn wrote:

Quote:
Readers, your thoughts?



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I hate to tell you, but there is only one Reader left over there who has what would qualify as "thoughts". His name is Finn MacCool 8-) and it turns out that attentive sleuths on the official Mignini Board (aka PMF) have recently outed him. He is really a cyber-schizophrenic known as Frank "Charlie Wilkes" Sfarzo. :shock: And if you give them a little time, they will produce irrefutable proof that this Frank-Charlie fellow is the love child of Gabriella Carlizzi and Harry Wilkens. :o They just need to run final protocols to rule out Doug Preston as the proud papa. Rumor has it that there was a paternity suit a few years back, but it didn't get too far. :?
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Offline Corrina


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:20 pm

Posts: 625

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:29 pm   Post subject:    

Finn,

I thought I was on the wrong board...crazy-making.

At any rate, you better watch out. It may not be listed in the rules but I'd wager that thar post of yours is grounds for being forever banned from the PI.
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Offline nicki

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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:27 am

Posts: 847

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:30 pm   Post subject:    

FinnMacCool wrote:
The Machine wrote:
Hi Finn,

I'm very impressed by your imitations of Frank and Charlies Wilkes. You have a standing ovation.

I'm looking forward to your Candace Dempsey impersonation. It will bring the house down.


Thanks, TM, I needed a laugh. I don't mean to be rude please read the guidelines at the top of the page. Funnycat is an expert if you need help understanding where you may have contravened US libel laws. Basta!

Here is an excellent story on the court proceedings. Sorry, I do not have time today to translate it but here is a bad Google translation.

Raffaele Urge represented by avocado Julie Hello said &ty Perugia &ty Chief Prosecutor Mignini is the Monster of Florence and is wanted for the Giacomo the Ripper murder’s in Londra in the 1880s.

Doug Preston, the respected crime writer, confirms that Prosecutor Mignini fits the scenario of the typical crime perp. He sent me this note in an email (please note these are NOT my words): "That b*****d locked me up for a couple of hours and asked me why I was nosing round the Mostro di Firenze case."

That gave me a laugh. My Calabrian mama told me to go and make some spaghetti and meatballs and forget the whole thing - hey, that's what we do in a typical Italian family. We shout and we forgive. But when I was in Perugia last week Signor Mignini was most gracious and asked for my autograph. Really this case is a mystery, except that Amanda Knox is innocent, that's the only thing that's perfectly clear at this stage.

Readers, your thoughts?


Hi Finn,

I always love reading your posts but this time I also had a great laugh :lol:
Thanks.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:34 pm   Post subject:    

Corinna wrote:

Quote:
Finn,

I thought I was on the wrong board...crazy-making.

At any rate, you better watch out. It may not be listed in the rules but I'd wager that thar post of yours is grounds for being forever banned from the PI.


Usually I don't read or comment on what goes on in other forums, but I have to say that it is crazy-making, Heloise. However, I'm sure the Italians will sort it out. Until they do, I'm just going to sit back, enjoy this pitcher of Lemon Drops I have whipped up and experiment with my new, super-sensitive remote delete key.
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Offline Corrina


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:20 pm

Posts: 625

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:55 pm   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Corinna wrote:

Quote:
Finn,

I thought I was on the wrong board...crazy-making.

At any rate, you better watch out. It may not be listed in the rules but I'd wager that thar post of yours is grounds for being forever banned from the PI.


Usually I don't read or comment on what goes on in other forums, but I have to say that it is crazy-making, Heloise. However, I'm sure the Italians will sort it out. Until they do, I'm just going to sit back, enjoy this pitcher of Lemon Drops I have whipped up and experiment with my new, super-sensitive remote delete key.



I do so hope you have found yourself a good proofreader, dear.
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Offline Jumpy


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:27 pm

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Location: US

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:56 pm   Post subject:    

Finn,
That was just awesome! Thanks for the laughs!
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Offline Jools


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:05 pm   Post subject:    

[quote=
That gave me a laugh. My Calabrian mama told me to go and make some spaghetti and meatballs and forget the whole thing - hey, that's what we do in a typical Italian family. We shout and we forgive. But when I was in Perugia last week Signor Mignini was most gracious and asked for my autograph. Really this case is a mystery, except that Amanda Knox is innocent, that's the only thing that's perfectly clear at this stage.

Readers, your thoughts?[/quote]

Finn,
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

You'll be sent to the Etruscan Catacombs alive!!
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Offline Giustizia


Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:13 pm

Posts: 113

Location: New York City

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:37 pm   Post subject: Crime Victim Advocates   

The Daily Beast has an article today authored by Susan Levy, the mother of Chandra Levy, who was murdered in 2001. The police say they are ready to make an arrest in case, nearly eight years after her death: We'll Never Have Closure

I noticed this blurb on the bottom of the article:

Wing of Protection is a 501(c) was founded in 2001. The advocacy group began when Susan Levy and Donna Raley, stepmother of homicide victim Dena Raley, got together and decided to provide support for families like them. Wings of Protection assist families with liaisons for court proceedings, communications between police departments and media relations. We are crime victim advocates and since 2001 our work has helped many families. To reach Wings of Protection, contact Bonie Driskill via email at niciha3@aol.com or call at (209) 338-4140.

Does the UK have any similar advocacy groups? If so, has the Kercher family availed themselves of their services? I'm only inquiring because I'm wondering if there is anything positive and life-affirming whatsoever that can result from the horror, pain, and anguish that the victim suffered through.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:54 pm   Post subject:    

Giustizia wrote:

Quote:
Does the UK have any similar advocacy groups? If so, has the Kercher family availed themselves of their services? I'm only inquiring because I'm wondering if there is anything positive and life-affirming whatsoever that can result from the horror, pain, and anguish that the victim suffered through.


I can't answer the specific question about the Kercher family, but I found this online (hvsgnsw.org.au):

United Kingdom
SAMM-Merseyside (UK)
SAMM offers emotional support to those bereaved through murder and manslaughter. SAMM feel that as part of our support for families we must attempt to make society more aware of the devastating effects of the dreadful crimes of murder and manslaughter.

Support After Murder & Manslaughter Abroad (UK)
SAMM Abroad (formerly SAMM Murdered Abroad Survivors Group) exists specially for people in the UK whose loved ones are the victims of murder or manslaughter abroad.

Victim Support for UK and Ireland (UK)
Victim Support is the independent charity which helps people cope with the effects of crime, providing free and confidential support and information to help you deal with you

Victims of Crime Trust (VOCT) UK
Our aim is to support any individual who has been bereaved by murder or manslaughter.
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:12 pm   Post subject:    

Fast Pete wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Whatever happened on TJMK happened on TJMK, not here.


It didnt happen on TJMK.

Greggy's comments on Nicki's post were right here - because, of course, he had already flounced off over there.

Pete

Hi Pete,

Greggy is basically wondering if Stefanoni and the crime lab she runs have an idea of how to perform a PCR test on a DNA sample. Given that Dr Stefanoni is an internationally reputed scientist, and the people working in her lab are qualified technicians I suppose they must be able to process and interpret samples results according to well-known and established protocols. That said, let's get some simple but basic concepts through-hopefully for the last time, although my hopes are not high:

1.As I have written in the past, the knife DNA result is questionable- and defense must and will challenge it-since results must be reproducible in order to yield a more than probable assessment. This was not the case with the blade DNA, due to the scarcity of sample. But as Micheli writes -and I fully agree-this is not a scientific symposium, it's a murder investigation:this DNA clue is supportive of more and heavy evidence.
2. As to the bra DNA, there was more than enough biologcal material from Sollecito yileding his genetic profile with certainty. Period.
3. As to in-lab contamination, it's always a possibility-but then we should scrap all DNA testing off any crime investigation anywhere in the world, since "contamination" is always possible...
4.It has been showed in the M. report that for clear physical reasons it is impossible that Sollecito 's DNA has been "absorbed onto the bra clasp (due to the clasp laying around for a few weeks-in a sealed crime scene-) The latter does not lead to extra cells being deposited on it, but rather to eventual loss of further evidence. If Greggy hasn't read the report too bad for him. Don't write about stuff you don't know
5.As to cells from bystanders being magically drawn and clustering onto specific pieces of evidence, it is the same chance of me winning the ENALOTTO lottery next Wednesday : 1 out of 6.000.0000 chances. And since I don't even buy the ticket, chances are about zero :roll:
6. Epithelial cells shedding does occur, but one needs to touch, press, or extert some kind of mechanical action on a surface in order to yield a sensible sample. Otherwise, we would find all kind of "foreign" evidence everywhere on crime scenes: the milkman, the postman, the neighbor, the handyman..any bystander basically could have deposited some biological trace.If you add this to the fact that Rudy's DNA was only found on the left cuff of Meredith's jumper (in small quantity) and inside her, it should be clear to anybody that epithelial cells don't fly around nor migrate to deposit on specific places alltogether. If one disagrees, then go back to point 3. ,and scrap DNA testing off any and each crime investigation, present, past and future.

Facts : Stefanoni is not under trial, nor is her lab; the scientific reports support the evidence gathered by detectives through traditional investigation methods. Let's the trial roll. The defense job is to try to disprove evidence - hopefully using better arguments than I've heard until now-, so I expect to hear more about contamination and interpetation issues...But as things are now, nobody can deny that the evidence is pretty damning.
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Offline Fly by Night


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:09 pm

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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:28 pm   Post subject: Just Checking...   

nicki wrote:
Given that Dr Stefanoni is an internationally reputed scientist, and the people working in her lab are qualified technicians I suppose they must be able to process and interpret samples results according to well-known and established protocols. That said, let's get some simple but basic concepts through-hopefully for the last time, although my hopes are not high:


niki - do you mind if I pass this by funnycat for some verification? :lol:
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:32 pm   Post subject: Re: Just Checking...   

Fly by Night wrote:
nicki wrote:
Given that Dr Stefanoni is an internationally reputed scientist, and the people working in her lab are qualified technicians I suppose they must be able to process and interpret samples results according to well-known and established protocols. That said, let's get some simple but basic concepts through-hopefully for the last time, although my hopes are not high:


niki - do you mind if I pass this by funnycat for some verification? :lol:


I don't mind at all-but do you honestly think it would do any good anyhow :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Online The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:33 pm   Post subject:    

Hi Nicki,

It should be noted that two people confirmed that Meredith's DNA is on the double DNA knife:

Dr. Renato Biondo provided independent confirmation that the test result on the double DNA was accurate and reliable, and that there was no contamination.

Raffaele Sollecito provided further confirmation by stating that Meredith's DNA was on the blade of the double DNA knife because he had accidentally pricked Meredith whilst cooking. Sollecito KNEW that it was Meredith's DNA on the knife. He didn't attempt to refute the claim at all or feign ignorance. He knew he had to come up with some explanation to account for Meredith's DNA on the blade. He resorted to telling a ridiculous cock and bull story, which further incriminated both him and Knox.
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Offline anne


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Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:04 pm

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Location: Berlin Kreuzberg

Highscores: 3

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:45 pm   Post subject:    

Im just now watching a documentation about people who are released from prison and about how life goes on for them afterwards. You know, daily life and stuff.
And whenever i see documentations about prison life in germany, people always have a private cell. Now i am wondering, why AK is in a cell with 2 or 3 other woman. Is this common in italy? Or is it because she is still in custody? Or may it be that its handled that way so the others can have an eye on her (preventing suicide)? I ask about the suicide prevention because i remember it was like that with Sophie Scholl eventhough that was in another decade. Her Cell-mate said she is there so she can have an eye on her. I dont know if thats still like this these days. Do any of you know?


Last edited by anne on Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:49 pm   Post subject:    

The Machine wrote:
Hi Nicki

It should be noted that two people confirmed that Meredith's DNA is on the double DNA knife:

Dr. Renato Biondo provided independent confirmation that the test result on the double DNA was accurate and reliable, and that there was no contamination.

Raffaele Sollecito provided further confirmation by stating that Meredith's DNA was on the blade of the double DNA knife because he had accidentally pricked Meredith whilst cooking. Sollecito KNEW that it was Meredith's DNA on the knife. He didn't attempt to refute the claim at all or feign ignorance. He knew he had to come up with some explanation to account for Meredith's DNA on the blade. He resorted to telling a ridiculous cock and bull story, which further incriminated both him and Knox.


Hi TM,

This's what I mean when I say "supportive of other evidence". If we add them up, the DNA traces on the blade become important clues. But strictly from a biological point of view, while I see the bra DNA almost impossible to attack, I think the blade DNA is weaker because reproducibility could not be showed. I just know defense will argue it fiercely. On the other side, it's standard lab practice:results should be reproducible in order to be accepted as certain. Too bad they didn't have enough sample.


Last edited by nicki on Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:52 pm   Post subject:    

anne wrote:
Im just now watching a documentation about people who are released from prison and how life goes on for them afterwards. You know, daily life and stuff.
And whenever i see documentations about prison life in germany, people always have a private cell. Now i am wondering, why AK is in a cell with 2 or 3 other woman. Is this common in italy? Or is it because she is still in custody? Or may it be that its handled that way so the others can have an eye on her (preventing suicide)? I ask about the suicide prevention because i remember it was like that with Sophie Scholl eventhough that was in another decade. Her Cell-mate said she is there so she can have an eye on her. I dont know if thats still like this these days. Do any of you know?


Hi Anne,
I think it's just that in Italy prisons provide for 2-3 people accomodation in th esame cell. Guess prisons are overcrowded! :)
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Offline Ferret


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Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:21 am

Posts: 101

Location: Hidden Hills, CA

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:08 pm   Post subject:    

FinnMacCool wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Who do you do for an encore? ;)


Just asking that question demonstrates your naivety. It's noteworthy how many seemingly intelligent people will just swallow a line because someone in authority says it. You act like this case is some kind of complex puzzle, but actually students of the genre have seen it all before.

Study the case files and it will become clear, even to you. Only one suspect fits the profile of a lone killer - blood-sucking vampire, will suck your blood, has admitted as much on YouTube. The other two suspects are just cute-as-pie college kids - aren't even drunk, have only taken one-and-a-half-shots according to their own admission on YouTube. I call that a railroad job from hell.

But these things happen in the States too. I suggest you research the Charles Manson Family killings, which Donny and Marie Osmond were sentenced to fifteen years hard labor for after a confession was beaten out of them by none other than a young Italian cop by the name of Giuliani Mignini.

I personally have seen a crime-scene video in which the same Mignini is clearly seen letting Rudy Guede in through the bedroom window. Ask yourselves why this video has not yet seen the light of day.


I thought I was reading a skit written for "Kang and Kodos" characters in the "Simpsons" ...

"I am Clin-Ton. As overlord, all will kneel trembling before me
and obey my brutal commands. End communication."

I would had find some way to call everyone a bunch of pied noirs and end it with a hearty "E perché cazzo non me lo dici in inglese, testa di minchia!!?"
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Online The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:41 pm   Post subject:    

Take a bow FinnMacCool!! :D :D You've certainly been playing to the gallery tonight to rapturous applause.

For a moment I thought Candace Dempsey had decided to post on here rather than just lurk. I suspect she's been making frantic phone calls to the editor of the Seattle Post-Intelligencer. She probably has his number on speed dial and he probably has his mobile phone on silent. I bet he can't wait for the Seattle Post-Intelligencer to close down, so he can get some peace and quiet.
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Offline Michael

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Location: England

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:02 am   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Nowo wrote:

Quote:
There has been talk elsewhere of the Postal Police driving around getting lost etc. Just reviewing Kermit's presentation of the layout of Via Pergola 7, a couple of pages from the start there is a good shot of the gates with a large and blatant '7' on it. The gates are angled in a way that makes it easier for people to see the number when coming from the direction in which the Postal Police did.


I have yet to see anyone produce proof that they were driving around getting lost. I view that as pure speculation on the part of someone who champions the little people against the mighty and powerful.

I can imagine a first-time visitor having a little trouble getting oriented. Pete has first-hand experience and describes his first view of the house movingly above. But it seems to me that the postal police (or any LE) would have a GPS or not need one. Perugia has 162,000 inhabitants. Rome it isn't. Frank himself claims to have been aware of the house long before it became the house of horrors BECAUSE of its relatively isolated location. Piazza Grimana is right nearby and a known hangout, right? How likely is it the police had no clue? Not very.

Unless it emerges in court that they got lost and drove around for ages.



Ferdi goes one better. Because it was lunch time, the postal police in fact stopped off somewhere to have a sneaky kebab. Their lies over times therefore, is down to their not wanting to be found out for stopping of for said unauthorised kebab and it's 'obvious' that this is the most 'plausible' explanation. :roll: It would seem that Amanda's defenders are following in Rudy's footsteps and using the old 'kebab defence'...at least if one listens to Ferdi. The irony never ends. Of course, when Finn helpfully points out the video showing the arrival of the police car at the time they stated, this is then met with 'well, we don't know that's the police car...it could be *any* car'. So, finn with flawless logic, points out that if it isn't the police car arriving, then you've got to then show the actual later arrival of the police car which would also be on the CCTV. The response was, 'well, we only get to see the part where the 'fake' police car arrives and the ILE doesn't show us the rest'. This despite the fact that the CCTV tapes are all in the hands of Raffaele's lawyers and have been for a long time, who would have shown to the court (in the pre-trial) and the world in general, but they haven't, because there is no 'real' postal police car arriving at a later time on CCTV, as that is the postal police in the video arriving when they said they did. But, we're not done yet...Ferdi goes back to the 'kebab defence' by arguing that they never arrived in their car, having parked it around the corner to go for their 'kebab', after which they went to the cottage on foot! This 'kebab' of course, exists only in Ferdi's mind, that small part of it that's actually on this planet that is.

The above neatly summarises the typical illogical non-argument type of sophistry from Knox supporters we have been having to deal with and counter (in endless monotony) for the past year +. The amount of times they say something so mind numbingly stupid, I'm left in total disbelieve. And they actually get annoyed when people don't buy this crap they are being shovelled. I'm tired of listening to their endless excuses and elaborate nonsensical explanations for Amanda and Raffaele that even their own lawyers are not and never have, argued!

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Professor Snape


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Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:53 pm

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:15 am   Post subject:    

The Machine wrote:
Take a bow FinnMacCool!! :D :D You've certainly been playing to the gallery tonight to rapturous applause.

For a moment I thought Candace Dempsey had decided to post on here rather than just lurk. I suspect she's been making frantic phone calls to the editor of the Seattle Post-Intelligencer. She probably has his number on speed dial and he probably has his mobile phone on silent. I bet he can't wait for the Seattle Post-Intelligencer to close down, so he can get some peace and quiet.


...ah, I'm confused, does that mean Mignini got an autograph of Candace Dempsey?? Did she authorize that? :shock:

_________________
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Offline Greggy


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Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:10 pm

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Location: Southern USA

PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:15 am   Post subject:    

Hello Nicki!

I greatly enjoyed reading your analysis of the DNA data. The purpose of my previous post was not to dispute the Italian laboratory's credentials or performance of str pcr analysis, which I am certain they are very capable of performing. Rather, my two specific goals were: (1) to point out that perhaps we shouldn't make conclusions about Sollecito's guilt until the DNA data has been presented at trial, and; (2) to describe regions in the results that Sollecito's DNA defense expert will probably attack during the defense portion of the trial. By the way, I am a Ph.D. scientist specializing in molecular pharmacology. Besides the post-doctoral research in oncology I did with my own two hands using a pcr thermal cycler, I later supervised a Ph.D. scientist in a biotechnology protein core laboratory that routinely performed pcr assays to scoop out cDNA sequences for us. We had to do a lot of troubleshooting to isolate the sequences we needed and to be sure our sequences were correct and not mutated because we were selling the translated proteins to pharmaceutical scientists for drug discovery research. In my opinion, it is more difficult choosing primers and building successful pcr assays from scratch, as we did, than using commercial kits (e.g., the Qiagen multiplex assay kit), which I think many Police DNA technicians use nowadays.

I want to see statistics and probabilities about the DNA evidence presented under oath at a trial. Then I will make a judgment on Sollecito's presence at the crime scene and whether the knife found at his apartment was the actual murder weapon. I have read DNA result leaks in the past, in other cases, about supposedly conclusive evidence that didn't stand up under scrutiny during a trial.

One item displeased me in your comments:
" If Greggy hasn't read the report too bad for him. Don't write about stuff you don't know"
Knowledge-is-power is an unfortunate tactic during a debate. The translated report was quickly removed from the web so I am unable to make direct interpretations of the data as you have. Thank you for reading my response. It is nice to run into another scientist studying the evidence on this horrible murder.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:31 am   Post subject:    

Greggy wrote:

Quote:
I want to see statistics and probabilities about the DNA evidence presented under oath at a trial. Then I will make a judgment on Sollecito's presence at the crime scene and whether the knife found at his apartment was the actual murder weapon. I have read DNA result leaks in the past, in other cases, about supposedly conclusive evidence that didn't stand up under scrutiny during a trial.



I certainly agree with this and I bet Nicki does too. She has said on many occasions - including in her post today - that the job of the defense is to contest this evidence and they will do so;, vigorously.

I get the feeling that Sollecito's defense is not contesting the existence of his DNA (even in abundant supply) on the bra clasp. And this DNA presence would be compatible with "clean-up" only, which is a possibility that many people have considered at one time or another.

Personally, I have nothing to contribute to this technical discussion. I am just delighted to have the opportunity to hear what people with real scientific credentials have to say. I did work briefly in the biotech industry in the early 1980's, in a small start-up of 50, of whom 40 were research scientists -- physicians, PhDs in various fields (chemistry, molecular biology, etc.), often both. I was witness to many passionate debates about technical details that were way over my head.

I feel we are lucky to have such a broad range of expertise on this board, as well as an incredible level of linguistic talent. It sure beats having to rely all the time on google or on people who are google experts. :)
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Offline stewarthome2000


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Location: Perugia, Italy

PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:20 am   Post subject: circumstancial evidence keeps building...   

Apart from the physical evidence, there are so many coincidences to get over if you are to believe Amanda had nothing to do with this tragic event, that she is either guilty punto e basta, or she is the most unlucky, ill-fated, star-crossed, tragic figure ever, cursed by the dread god Finagle and his mad prophet Murphy. As if all we had to date was not enough, out comes Laura Mezzetti stating that Knox had a wound on her neck. Not a round purple hickey as was claimed by the defense.

If that is the case, it makes it even more probable that she and Sollecito were playing games with his knives. Given her rape stories written, and his comic books, I would not put it pass them to play some sort of sexual rape game at knife point. It’s like a bondage turn on. If that wound is for real, then it’s just another piece that suggests Knox enjoyed the idea of a violent sexual role playing. Getting another person involved, really against their will, would be the next level of euphoria. I find it hard to believe, but I am not on the jury!

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Offline jodyodyo


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Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:02 am

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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:26 am   Post subject:    

stewarthome2000,

I like your new avitar. Did you change from the manson girl to this because of crazy wilkens thinking that was your picture? :lol:
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Offline stewarthome2000


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Posts: 152

Location: Perugia, Italy

PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:54 am   Post subject: the Rudy Factor...   

|

I am just throwing some things in the air to keep the topics flowing.
It obvious that the one person who knows what happened that tragic evening is of course Rudy Guede.
I think his story is such BS, and has been used so many times in the past by other killers that it’s as if someone told exactly what not to say and he did anyway. So there must some reasons why, after being convicted he is still reluctant to unequivocally "come clean".
1. Maybe if he maintains his "sono innocente anch'io" story maybe in a few years he may gain some favor to be let out early? Possible in Italy? Dunno.
2. Perhaps if he comes clean, he knows he will NOT get a reduced sentence and he may be asking for more trouble in prison being a confessed sex crime convict.
3. Maybe he is the lone killer, but does not want to take it all on by himself. Misery loves company (plus #1 and #2 still apply)
4. other?...

I suppose if he gets a reduced sentence or some incentive for coming clean, the defense will say he is lying and doing it to get his ass out of prison early. BUT, that would be shot down if he is able to provide a TRUE and accurate account because the details will be just too coincidental and fit too well to be made up. Then if Knox and Sollecito are guilty as charged they will have little recourse but come clean as well, and if not they will seem even more impenitent. But I don’t even think a deal with Guede is a possibility.

I am sure thumbscrews and an fingernail wedges would get the truth from all accused, but Perugia, as medieval as it is, does not do that anymore - perhaps employing more sophisticated methods like using sodium pentothal mixed with curare and a highly concentrated peyote distillate will be allowed.

So, my question is what is the deal with the Rudy factor? Can he be useful or enticed?
What do we know about his testimony that the prosecution is using; will he testify in person against AK and RS? Or is he history?
Seems to me this is the guy who can help tremendously.
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Offline Giustizia


Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:13 pm

Posts: 113

Location: New York City

PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:31 am   Post subject: Internet Archive Wayback Machine   

Greggy wrote:
The translated report was quickly removed from the web so I am unable to make direct interpretations of the data as you have.


Don't despair. Sometimes, with the assistance of the Internet Archive Wayback Machine, we can automagically raise documents from the dead! If this free service (which has existed for several years now) indexed the site where that translated report was first uploaded, then it may have been archived. I've been able to retrieve documents and replicate the content of entire web sites that appeared ten years ago and have subsequently been removed with the Internet Archive Wayback Machine.

I've recently tried to read deleted comments on the Perugia Shock and Seattle newspaper blogs using the Wayback Machine, but unfortunately either they were removed too quickly, or blogs aren't archived. I think it's the former. I suspect this service may help resurrect other content that's germane to this case too - and once it's been indexed by the Wayback Machine, NO ONE can delete it, not even those who have a tendency to lean heavily on the "delete comment" button. BTW - is the original report still posted on the web? We can translate again if it's necessary and productive to the discussion at hand.

One other technique may help those who are trying to retrieve comments or content on sites that "disappears" - try the Google cached link that appears in the search engine results, or your own browser's cache.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:47 am   Post subject:    

Greggy wrote:
Hello Nicki!

I greatly enjoyed reading your analysis of the DNA data. The purpose of my previous post was not to dispute the Italian laboratory's credentials or performance of str pcr analysis, which I am certain they are very capable of performing. Rather, my two specific goals were: (1) to point out that perhaps we shouldn't make conclusions about Sollecito's guilt until the DNA data has been presented at trial, and; (2) to describe regions in the results that Sollecito's DNA defense expert will probably attack during the defense portion of the trial. By the way, I am a Ph.D. scientist specializing in molecular pharmacology. Besides the post-doctoral research in oncology I did with my own two hands using a pcr thermal cycler, I later supervised a Ph.D. scientist in a biotechnology protein core laboratory that routinely performed pcr assays to scoop out cDNA sequences for us. We had to do a lot of troubleshooting to isolate the sequences we needed and to be sure our sequences were correct and not mutated because we were selling the translated proteins to pharmaceutical scientists for drug discovery research. In my opinion, it is more difficult choosing primers and building successful pcr assays from scratch, as we did, than using commercial kits (e.g., the Qiagen multiplex assay kit), which I think many Police DNA technicians use nowadays.

I want to see statistics and probabilities about the DNA evidence presented under oath at a trial. Then I will make a judgment on Sollecito's presence at the crime scene and whether the knife found at his apartment was the actual murder weapon. I have read DNA result leaks in the past, in other cases, about supposedly conclusive evidence that didn't stand up under scrutiny during a trial.

One item displeased me in your comments:
" If Greggy hasn't read the report too bad for him. Don't write about stuff you don't know"
Knowledge-is-power is an unfortunate tactic during a debate. The translated report was quickly removed from the web so I am unable to make direct interpretations of the data as you have. Thank you for reading my response. It is nice to run into another scientist studying the evidence on this horrible murder.



Greggy,

The report cannot be posted as it is Italian government copyright.

I'm not a DNA expert, but I can give you some background.

Experts from both the prosecution and the defences gave evidence and presented their opposing arguments on the quality of the DNA evidence, under oath, for nearly two days at the pretrial.

The Pretrial in Italy isn't in public and is similar in purpose to a US Grand Jury. It makes the decision on indictment for trial.

Micheli summarises in his report why he was convinced by the prosecution argument and why he rejected the arguments put forward by both defences.

However. he also states that he fully expects this same argumenmt to be heard in even greater detail at the trial.

That of course will be in public, and I suspect all the technical detail will become available at that time. I also suspect however that the backing forensic documentation will be Italian government copyright and you may have to pay for your own copy. I suspect that actual court transcripts will also have a cost.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:03 am   Post subject: Micheli's Report   

Here: MICHELI'S SENTENCING REPORT

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Giustizia


Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:13 pm

Posts: 113

Location: New York City

PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:42 am   Post subject: Clue: The board game   

Please permit me a "virtual" cannabis-induced fugue and indulge me. If I could change one evidentiary item in this case - notice I said case because of course my biggest wish is that the victim had never crossed paths with the perpetrator(s) - it would be to replace that practically worthless CCTV in the San Antonio parking lot with a high-resolution camera (providing non-grainy, not-washed-out digital images) that pointed right at the entrance to via della Pergola 7, with a synchronized clock that functioned, and sufficient light to provide contrast at night. On top of that, a tape/DVD of what the camera recorded for 24 uninterrupted hours from about 3 PM on November 1 to the following day.

Just imagine for a moment what might have been recorded. Much, if not most, of what the suspects said could be immediately verified/refuted and, I believe most of what we've been discussing, and the conjecture from all sides, would be moot. At around 20:43 and then for the next few hours the tape would be priceless - I believe it would show AK arriving at the apartment, followed soon by two others - the victim and RG. At some point, the arrival of RS (I'm not certain on this point though) quite possibly with his car. Then at around 22:30-23:00, a whirlwind of activity. Three individuals exiting, skulking as they hurried through the gate, one or more of them threatening the owner of the breakdown vehicle with a knife. General confusion. One or more individuals running back inside. And at some point, someone would open the second story side window from inside, lean out, and an arm would be seen extended outside, throwing a big rock throw the lower left pane. At no point would l'Uomo Ragno make an appearance. And then, of course, AK and RS riding the magic mop back and forth from his apartment to the house, on their midnight mopping madness.

All on tape that would allow for positively ID'ing the individuals entering and leaving that house. No DNA, no cell phone triangulation, no computer on/off determination in RS's apartment, and certainly not one more fantasmagorical word from the imaginative minds of AK and RS. No endless parsing what time the postal police really arrived, and when RS actually called his sister and the carabinieri. No, I want that camera replaced ASAP - it might have caught whoever ransacked the house a few days ago too. While the defense would still dispute what was on the tape courtesy of the upgraded CCTV, at least we wouldn't have to rely on faulty memory gaps of the suspects. And I think it would solve the crime.

So if you could change one evidentiary item in this case (or add/subtract/modify) what would it be? And no, a signed, sealed confession from either AK or RS is not what I'm after. I'm looking at this from a Clue board game perspective. You've got three cards in hand, have gone around the board a few times, and heard a few suggestions. You could /guess/ at the answer with a 75% probability factor of being correct, but you want to significantly bump up your chances of being correct (closer to 90%, for argument's sake). So what's your choice? More DNA? Another superwitness? Postal police who can take the stand and speak forthrightly? I'd be interested in hearing from both the innocentisti as well as the colpevolisti.
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Offline Giustizia


Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:13 pm

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Location: New York City

PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:30 am   Post subject: Hair in hand of victim   

Early in the case it was reported that strands of bloodied hair were found in the left hand of the victim. Was that ever confirmed, and if so was there a positive ID? Back in December 2008 of last year it was touched upon in this forum too but I couldn't find any comments stating what the determination was.

Strands of hair found in hands of murdered Meredith 'could belong to her killer'
Meredith Kercher 'could have grabbed murderer's hair'
Meredith: Blood-Soaked Hair in Hands Holds Key
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:50 am   Post subject: Re: Hair in hand of victim   

Giustizia wrote:
Early in the case it was reported that strands of bloodied hair were found in the left hand of the victim. Was that ever confirmed, and if so was there a positive ID? Back in December 2008 of last year it was touched upon in this forum too but I couldn't find any comments stating what the determination was.

Strands of hair found in hands of murdered Meredith 'could belong to her killer'
Meredith Kercher 'could have grabbed murderer's hair'
Meredith: Blood-Soaked Hair in Hands Holds Key


Giustizia,

I've never seen a definitive answer to your question.

Back in Spring 2008, Chris Mellas stated on Haloscan that it was negroid hair. To use a phrase, and in common with many other things he was saying at the time; he would say that, wouldn't he.

I have seen suggestion elsewhere that it was in fact Meredith's own hair. Collected with the blood on her hand as she clutched at the the wound to her neck.

I suspect the second option is more likely to be the truth else it would form a major piece of prosecution evidence which surely would have leaked at some stage over the last year.
It wasn't mentioned in Rudy's sentencing report.

But, just maybe it was Amanda's or Raffaele's, and the answer is somewhere in the 10,000 page prosecution file?
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Offline Catnip


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Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:08 am

Posts: 2997

Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:15 am   Post subject:    

stewarthome2000 wrote:
Guys are around 65/35 she is guilty, women more like 80/20 she is guilty, at least around the people that I know, with females the most vicious.

Stew, I can understand that. There are only a few reasons a women needs to use manipulation and deceit, and other women are quicker on the uptake when they spot it. Guys tend to be more lenient. But with macho things, it is the other way round. Isn't that right? :)


Brian S. wrote:
By Tuesday, October 30, his patience ran out. He told Amanda she could carry on handing out club flyers, but could no longer work in the bar.

"She looked at me blankly and walked away," he says. "The club was busy and I didn't see her again that evening." (Mail on Sunday)

At last! Some consistent behaviour.

Also, when Amanda and Raffaele first met:
Quote:
Mi guardava piu’ e piu’ volte, cercava di scrutare qualcose nel mio sguardo,…
She looked at me more and more, she was trying to discern something in my glance,...
Sarzanini, Amanda e gli altri, p104


In court, a similar scrutinizing occurs, for example, when she glances over at Raffaele.

If you are an employer, and you thought you hired a conscientious worker (who might also be a boy-magnet), but you discover soon enough that they are a lazy flirt-bucket instead, of course you will talk to your employee.

Remove all the emotion – facial expression, body language, tone of voice – leaving just the words, like in an email: “Stop flirting, and get back to work.”

Of course this behaviour by the boss is arrogant – retribution will be swift.
Quote:
but then he gets arrogant with me.


“Appropriateness” is emotionally based, with an empathy for the other person – of course Meredith is a “friend”: there were no words to indicate otherwise.

When other people are a blank page emotionally, the coping mechanism is to fill pages analysing the minutiae, trying to piece them together into something with at least the semblance of coherence – then that becomes the foundation for further interaction. The risk is that the entire analysis may be specious and thereby have to be jettisoned and a new analysis process will have to begin. It is a lonely world.

Brian S. wrote:
Lumumba, [s]who is married[/s] with a young child, (Daily Mail)
Patrick isn't married.

Brian,

You sound almost as sentimental as me. Often in similar situations, I find the journalist has used the civil meaning of “marriage”, that is, including common law marriages (or de facto relationships, as we call them in Australia), as well as the traditional “sign the register and hand out the candied almonds wrapped in white muslin” kind of stocking-and-garter marriage.


Giustizia,

Thanks for the cultural allusion regarding marriage and cabbage. I would have otherwise have translated “Cavoli Riscaldati” as “reheated borsht” or even “second-hand sauerkraut”, and lost the link between “making a hash of it” and “rehashing it” in the context of husband and wife. “Limp lettuce” used to be the English equivalent in the old days, I think.


Stew,

About your survey page: I’ve tried a few times, but, even while I’m looking at the list, I’m fluctuating between the choices.

Even with the hesitation of legal etiquette discouraging the pre-empting of a court’s decision (I can overcome that hesitation in a pinch, I think), and the difficulty of mapping multi-spectral thinking into a single list (I think I could that at a pinch too), and the technical countering of each charge separately (e.g., I find it difficult to see how the criminal slander charge can be avoided at all; and the knife charge is pedantic enough to be open to argument), after all of that, my inclination (which comes from my ambit, which might be verbalised as “Protect all”), my inclination is that I do not want them to have done it, but everything they have been saying and doing continually negatives that. Put me down as a “don’t know” (yet), I suppose.


On Italian accents

Amanda: almost flawless pronunciation, no regional hints at all (as heard on Raffaele’s second phone call, the “door is locked” one)
Rudy: Umbrian (Sarzanini book, p133)
Raffaele: Southern (a reporter or two)


Now, on this Ash Wednesday evening, what's been happening in the world since I've been away...?
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Offline stewarthome2000


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Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:47 am

Posts: 152

Location: Perugia, Italy

PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:35 am   Post subject: Re: Clue: The board game   

Giustizia wrote:
...So if you could change one evidentiary item in this case (or add/subtract/modify) what would it be?...


Ah the only IF game!
For only two letters its the biggest word in the English and for that matter the Italian language (If = se)
Fun question...you chose a good one.

Besides yours, and within reason given everything else, I think the reproducibility of the DNA results on the knife would do it for me.
If the DNA results of Merediths "blood" not epithelial cells the blade, and Amanda's DNA on the handle could be reproduced multiple times by independent labs wth the same result,...fry her. That might make the truth come out, per Raf as well.

As I understand it, the sample was too small to allow for more results (3 or more) than what we have now.
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Offline stewarthome2000


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Location: Perugia, Italy

PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:42 am   Post subject: survery...   

Catnip wrote:
Stew,

About your survey page: I’ve tried a few times, but, even while I’m looking at the list, I’m fluctuating between the choices.
Even with the hesitation of legal etiquette discouraging the pre-empting of a court’s decision (I can overcome that hesitation in a pinch, I think), and the difficulty of mapping multi-spectral thinking into a single list (I think I could that at a pinch too), and the technical countering of each charge separately (e.g., I find it difficult to see how the criminal slander charge can be avoided at all; and the knife charge is pedantic enough to be open to argument), after all of that, my inclination (which comes from my ambit, which might be verbalised as “Protect all”), my inclination is that I do not want them to have done it, but everything they have been saying and doing continually negatives that. Put me down as a “don’t know” (yet), I suppose.


It was made for shits and giggles...I did not consult Rasmussen or Gallop.
Anyway I do think the few results confirm what I think we all knew...most people on this blog think she guilty or is involved in some way.
Thanks for voting!
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Offline FinnMacCool


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Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:42 am

Posts: 299

Location: Cionn tSáile, Poblacht na hÉireann

PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:12 am   Post subject: Re: Internet Archive Wayback Machine   

Giustizia wrote:
Don't despair. Sometimes, with the assistance of the Internet Archive Wayback Machine, we can automagically raise documents from the dead! If this free service (which has existed for several years now) indexed the site where that translated report was first uploaded, then it may have been archived. I've been able to retrieve documents and replicate the content of entire web sites that appeared ten years ago and have subsequently been removed with the Internet Archive Wayback Machine.


Wow, that's a useful trick I didn't know about. I've retrieved Amanda Knox's MySpace page, which I'd lost a copy of, and added the missing page (her latest entry) to the In Their Own Words forum on this site.

It's interesting to note that almost the first thing she mentions is the new washing machine, even though it's "borken". She sounds excited about it, and the "hadnyman" that fixed it - it doesn't read like something she would never have used because she used to go to the laundromat instead.
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Offline Catnip


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Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:13 am   Post subject: Re: Clue: The board game   

Giustizia wrote:
So if you could change one evidentiary item in this case (or add/subtract/modify) what would it be?


One of either
1. Meredith's phone connected that night to someone at a party so the call would be diverted to a VMS inbox which would record significant audio
2. Her laptop webcam was on and streaming
3. The Perugia city webcam [link] was up and running (not just the weather ones, which are pointing at the sky - nice pictures though).

WEBCAM SHOTS OF PERUGIA


MODERATOR EDIT: Michael - removed Perugia webcam shots from post, due to their size causing massive horizontal elongation of main discussion page. Now placed in a specially created sticky thread in the 'Photo Album' forum and added link to it.
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Offline Giustizia


Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:13 pm

Posts: 113

Location: New York City

PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:18 pm   Post subject: Re: Clue: The board game   

I asked: "...So if you could change one evidentiary item in this case (or add/subtract/modify) what would it be?..."

stewarthome2000 came up w/an interesting suggestion: "...reproducibility of the DNA results on the knife..."

And Catnip is thinking like me - let technology catch the perpetrators:

Catnip wrote:
One of either
1. Meredith's phone connected that night to someone at a party so the call would be diverted to a VMS inbox which would record significant audio
2. Her laptop webcam was on and streaming
3. The Perugia city webcam was up and running (not just the weather ones, which are pointing at the sky - nice pictures though).


#1 is entirely plausible too. I think Meredith's phone dialed her bank accidently because it was somehow brushed up against. Maybe it was in her pocket during the struggle. Can you imagine if, as Catnip suggests, a friend's VMX was reached and recorded a few minutes of what was taking place in Meredith's bedroom? Oh, the horror.

It's interesting that both of you suggested evidence for the prosecution. Obviously, that's what I was interested in - damning, incontrovertible evidence. But for argument's sake, is there anything analogous to "If the glove don't fit, you must acquit" - the OJ Simpson defense?! Something reasonable too, within the context of what we know about the case and what has been suggested by the DNA, the suspects' words, and other evidence.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:36 pm   Post subject: Re: Internet Archive Wayback Machine   

FinnMacCool wrote:
Giustizia wrote:
Don't despair. Sometimes, with the assistance of the Internet Archive Wayback Machine, we can automagically raise documents from the dead! If this free service (which has existed for several years now) indexed the site where that translated report was first uploaded, then it may have been archived. I've been able to retrieve documents and replicate the content of entire web sites that appeared ten years ago and have subsequently been removed with the Internet Archive Wayback Machine.


Wow, that's a useful trick I didn't know about. I've retrieved Amanda Knox's MySpace page, which I'd lost a copy of, and added the missing page (her latest entry) to the In Their Own Words forum on this site.

It's interesting to note that almost the first thing she mentions is the new washing machine, even though it's "borken". She sounds excited about it, and the "hadnyman" that fixed it - it doesn't read like something she would never have used because she used to go to the laundromat instead.



Hi Finn :) Thanks for that. I've taken the liberty of editing your post in the 'Amanda Knox' thread in the 'In Their Own Words' thread by removing the full quote of of the earlier post containing Amanda's bog, instead renaiming the post 'Amanda Knox's Myspace Blog - The Missing Part' and actually embedded the missing blog part in the post, which people can use the scroll bars in the embedding to scroll down and read through. Members can view it here: AMANDA KNOX'S MYSPACE BLOG - THE MISSING PART

For anyone who may find it useful, the 'Wayback Machine' is actually embedded, along with other useful Web tools, in the 'Forum Tools' Announcement thread in 'The Murder of Meredith Kercher' forum here: FORUM TOOLS

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline Giustizia


Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:13 pm

Posts: 113

Location: New York City

PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:51 pm   Post subject:    

Catnip wrote:
...my inclination (which comes from my ambit, which might be verbalised as “Protect all”), my inclination is that I do not want them to have done it, but everything they have been saying and doing continually negatives that.


Why don't you want them [AK and RS] to have done it? I'm not challenging you - I'm just curious what you would prefer. The lone wolf, perhaps?

Is it difficult for you to believe that an all-American girl newly arrived in Perugia and/or her new, previously virginal Harry Potteresque Italian boyfriend could have been capable of committing the heinous crimes they've been accused of? Does the thought of a drug-fueled sex party gone terribly wrong make you cringe? If so, that implies it's easier to believe that RG, and only RG did it. Frankly, that makes it more palatable for a lot of people, and I can understand that.

A robbery interrupted in progress, or a date-rapist out for thrills who got in over his head and ended up mortally wounding his victim. Madness, yes, but at least we've seen that movie before. It's much more difficult to get our head around the idea that two or three despicable people who barely knew each other, all utterly contemptuous for human life, decided on a whim to get together for group sex, replete with drugs and knives. They invited/forced/coerced a roommate to join in, and when she rebuffed them the game turned ugly, resulting in the rape and murder of the uncooperative victim.

None of us want to believe that three fellow humans are capable of such evil rage and duplicitousness and lack of empathy. I'm sure Meredith Kercher never thought it possible either. That's what makes her death all the more distressing. By all accounts she was trusting, kind-hearted, and loyal - all character traits that the perpetrator(s) exploited.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 4:28 pm   Post subject:    

Giustizia wrote:

Quote:
Why don't you want them [AK and RS] to have done it? I'm not challenging you - I'm just curious what you would prefer. The lone wolf, perhaps?



I have a hard time thinking of this in terms of "preference." If it were up to me and my preference, it would not have happened at all.

The Lone Wolf theory is simple (Occam's Razor simple) and I think would have been validated long ago had it stood up to scrutiny. Let's face it; that theory plays into many received ideas and stereotypes, making it "attractive" to some. Nobody would have raised much of a fuss.

If Rudy Guede had a history of violence against women or unwanted sexual advances, or a pattern of escalating rage in his interpersonal relationships, he would be a better candidate.

I can't see any of these people acting alone.

I can't see any of them doing what was done to Meredith Kercher without the addition of mood/behavior altering chemicals. Tara provided excerpts from a local Seattle area news item, about a man in his early 40's who smoked some cocaine and killed his parents in a burst of rage.

What about the swim cap that was confiscated from Sollecito's apartment last March after Rudy gave additional testimony to Mignini? Will we be hearing more about that?

As for the "negroid" hair, we're still waiting for confirmation of its existence. Early press reports mention "strands" of hair in the victim's hand, without specifying color or type. A "strand" is a wisp or a tress. How long was Rudy's hair in November 2007?

The three suspects:
One never knew his mother - a lifetime orphan. Friends and substitute family seem to play a key role, according to his diary and witness testimony. Going through a rough patch in 2007, kind of a drifter. No real job. At loose ends. Perhaps a small-time dealer, but with no criminal record. Anecdotal hearsay suggests he was not averse to climbing through open windows and taking stuff. When found by police sleeping in a Milan kindergarten, he was carrying a knife he had taken from the kitchen of the kindergarten.

One lost his mother to suicide (though he now says otherwise) after a long separation between his parents and was sent to a boarding school for the orphaned children of doctors (!). Reports say his step-mother has been his father's companion for at least ten years - since the boy was 14 or so. Knox describes his depressive states, drug use. Is known to Bari police as a user. Had 40 euros in his bank account on Nov 1.

One says on her myspace page that her hero is her mother. When this girl was 14 or so, her mother remarried. A model student, good grades. Mixed reports about college social life. Someone I know at the UW said the party hosted by Knox was not just a routine party that got out of control. It was a riot that was the talk of the campus. Model student goes to Europe and begins a cushy internship at the Bundestaag arranged by her uncle. Quits - disappears, really - after three days because there is nothing to do, leaving Uncle to clean up.

Rudy and Raffaele are both into Manga comics.
Rudy stole a knife from a kitchen (he says for self-protection overnight and it was confiscated by police).
Raffaele has an extensive knife collection, started when he was a young boy.
In her email dated Nov 4, with the presumed killer still at large, Knox expresses absolutely no fear for her own safety.

I don't know how all these random pieces fit together or even if they do. But they're all bugging me.
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Offline Greggy


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 4:36 pm   Post subject:    

Giustizia asked: "...So if you could change one evidentiary item in this case (or add/subtract/modify) what would it be?..."

1. For the RS Defense Team: his cell phone record

If I was an innocent-of-murder RS, who was only involved in the clean-up because I was a stoned love-smitten fool, then I would like to have had a call on my cellphone at around 10PM from Amanda in my cell phone records. Was it his black Audi that was in front of the cottage that night or was that a spurious observation? In this scenario, a frantic Amanda calls him and tells him to immediately come over and bring his car. Catatonic in front of his computer keyboard, he snaps out of it and drives over and faints when he sees the carnage. She makes the murder sound like a bad game accident and he is too stoned and out of it to realize he is committing a serious crime until hours later.

A lot has been made about AK and RS turning off their phones at around 8:40PM and back on at around 5:30AM. These are highly suspicious actions. I can understand how turning on your phone can be recorded because you are asking the phone server for access. But I don't know how cell phone companies can tell if you turn off your phone, unless they ping your phone periodically. Their computers might do that. Since there are no cell phone records, if RS's Defense Team tries to use this scenario in court as a last ditch attempt to beat the murder charge, they will have to say that AK had pre-arranged a time for RS to come over with his car. Maybe originally as part of a proposed post-Halloween game where a blindfolded Miss Kercher would be taken around town.

OK, fantasy time over: RS isn't Sydney Carton and Miss Kercher's murder isn't " A Tale of Two Cities". RS was probably not that smitten with AK. If the above scenario occurred, RS would have told his Father and he would be testifying against AK with immunity rather than sitting next to her at the trial. Unless he is so noble that he will not betray her. Now that is a real fantasy.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 4:48 pm   Post subject:    

Greggy wrote:
I can understand how turning on your phone can be recorded because you are asking the phone server for access. But I don't know how cell phone companies can tell if you turn off your phone, unless they ping your phone periodically.


When you turn off your phone it sends a disconnect signal to the network before it actually "switches itself off".

Providing you are in range of a cell, the network will record the exact time of your switchoff.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:10 pm   Post subject:    

"Providing you are in range of a cell, the network will record the exact time of your switchoff. "

No, to my knowledge it will not record.

It maintains a location register and this is deleted when you switch off.
But with the next switch-on it is overwritten and as it is not logged there is no way to retrieve the switch-off time.
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Offline Greggy


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:15 pm   Post subject:    

Hi Brian,

Thanks for the cellular communication intelligence. I wonder if a cell phone network disconnect signal could tell you roughly where the phone was located when it disconnects. If so, there is the possibility that the disconnect signal could place RS at the cottage before the murder, and not at his computer as he has said. This would stop his Defense Team from being able to claim he arrived at the cottage after the murder.

The more I learn about how cell phones can track people, the more I begin to wonder if the government will supply us all with free ones in the future.
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Offline Giustizia


Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:13 pm

Posts: 113

Location: New York City

PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:17 pm   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
I have a hard time thinking of this in terms of "preference." If it were up to me and my preference, it would not have happened at all.


Trust me, I wish Meredith never met AK, I wish their lives never intersected. Like everyone else, my preference is that the victim were still alive, and that AK, RS, and RG weren't in jail. I meant no disrespect whatsoever to the victim. I'm only going forward though - none of my wishing can make her death go away. I'm interested in the legal aspects now, and I hope that justice continues apace.

Every day I wonder - if only Meredith had watched another movie at her friends' apartment, if only she had went out for a walk after speaking to her mom at 21:30, if only she had never met AK, if only RS never met AK. "If only" becomes maddening and depressing.

Certainly her family and friends will run the "If only..." scenario through their minds the rest of their lives and it won't be easy.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:26 pm   Post subject:    

Giustizia wrote:

Quote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
I have a hard time thinking of this in terms of "preference." If it were up to me and my preference, it would not have happened at all.


Trust me, I wish Meredith never met AK, I wish their lives never intersected. Like everyone else, my preference is that the victim were still alive, and that AK, RS, and RG weren't in jail. I meant no disrespect whatsoever to the victim. I'm only going forward though - none of my wishing can make her death go away. I'm interested in the legal aspects now, and I hope that justice continues apace.


I know, and I do trust you. It's just when I started to think about it, the word "preference" stuck in my craw, so to speak.

Here's something weird: I just reread Knox's short story - not the one about the rape fantasy, but the one about the manuscript reader who is being stalked. The story is really hard to follow as far as the plot goes. At one point, as the narrator (a mother with a snotty daughter named Aislin who at one point calls her a bitch) is entering her house, Knox writes that she "fumbled with her kids". I think she meant "keys". Is that a lapsus révélateur? (A Freudian slip)


Last edited by Skeptical Bystander on Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline GreenWyvern


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:27 pm   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
One says on her myspace page that her hero is her mother. When this girl was 14 or so, her mother remarried. A model student, good grades. Mixed reports about college social life. Someone I know at the UW said the party hosted by Knox was not just a routine party that got out of control. It was a riot that was the talk of the campus. Model student goes to Europe and begins a cushy internship at the Bundestaag arranged by her uncle. Quits - disappears, really - after three days because there is nothing to do, leaving Uncle to clean up.

One additional crucial point about Amanda is her drug use even before she came to Italy.

From an article in the Daily Mail back in Dec 2007 (I know it's a tabloid, but the information seems reliable):

Quote:
Although achieving top grades at university, she had started smoking potent 'skunk' cannabis regularly and declared to friends that her favourite "poison" was vodka.

But there was a crucial difference between Amanda's behaviour and that of her fellow students.


"We all like to smoke a bit of pot and go out and get trashed at the weekends," one student who stayed in the same halls of residence as Amanda recalled last week.

"But she really used drink and drugs.

"By that, I mean she didn't just take stuff to get high and have fun.

"It was like she wanted to get away from herself, as if she had some sort of chemical imbalance she could only cope with by getting wasted."
(emphasis mine)

It's easy to believe that she moved on to hard drugs in Perugia.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:36 pm   Post subject:    

Skep wrote:
"Had 40 euros in his bank account on Nov 1. "

I don't think that was a factor.
With a new woman money burns fast. :D

Rudy, however, was really broke.
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Offline Fly by Night


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:59 pm   Post subject: On the Run   

GreenWyvern wrote:
Quote:
"It was like she wanted to get away from herself, as if she had some sort of chemical imbalance she could only cope with by getting wasted."

It's easy to believe that she moved on to hard drugs in Perugia.


Out there on her own - no friends or family - no ties to her past - pretty much like a gangster on the run. What on earth would she be trying to get away from, though? Herself?
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Online The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:09 pm   Post subject:    

bolint wrote:
Skep wrote:
"Had 40 euros in his bank account on Nov 1. "

I don't think that was a factor.
With a new woman money burns fast. :D

Rudy, however, was really broke.


The sexual assault, torture and murder of Meredith was not motivated by theft.
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Offline Giustizia


Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:13 pm

Posts: 113

Location: New York City

PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:28 pm   Post subject: Fare la lavanderia sporca   

And another thing...! (there's a mountain of minutiae in this case)

The point about the washing machine in this case fascinates me. If it was on and running when the postal police arrived at midday on November 2, 2007, then at the very least, AK knows how to use it (or her boyfriend does, since the instructions are probably in Italian). Not earth-shattering news at face value, but it's part of the accretion of evidence that points to complicity on the part of AK (and RS, indirectly) in the crimes that took place.

Was it established that it was indeed running at that time and if so, whose clothes were being laundered? Didn't one of her roommates actually confirm that the machine was hot to the touch, indicating it had recently been used? I researched the PMF, and here's just one observation:

Sexe, mensonges & Erasmus (Sex, Lies & Erasmus)
Article paru dans l'édition du 27.01.08 (Article published on January 27, 2008)
Pérouse (Ombrie) Envoyé spécial Jean-Jacques Bozonnet (Filed from Perugia (Umbria) by special envoyé JJ Bozonnet)*

[a portion of the article that I believe Skeptical Observer translated]
"There was a smashed window pane. The disorder made it look like a burglary. However, the investigators realized almost immediately that a fairly meticulous clean-up had been done. Why were there only four fingerprints belonging to Amanda in the cottage where she lived? Why did she begin a load of wash that morning, at a very high temperature and using lots of bleach, mixing her clothes with those of Meredith’s—laundry on which the police found suspicious-looking marks?"

So the machine was mid-cycle, and it contained both MK's and AK's clothing. Not only that, there were suspicious-looking marks on the clothes.

On her MySpace page, in a post dated Monday, October 15, 2007 AK writes: "My house is awesome, we just got a washing machine the other day, though it was broken. Luckily, Laura started dating a hadnyman [sic] so he came over and fixed it for us."

BUT! AK also claimed that the washer never worked. In an interview with "Frank Sfarzo" here were AK's answer w/regard to the washing machine:
FS: "Did you use the washing machine on November 2?"
AK: "I've never used the washing machine. It was always broken so I preferred going to the laundromat where there was the dryer too. I don't know what that stuff was, probably still the stuff Meredith had put in the day before." (posted on Perugia Shock on December 2, 2008: Superwitness and Forgetful)

On the one hand, this is mundane (according to bolint in a post on this blog, Micheli doesn't even mention it). On the other, though, as we examine AK's personality quirks, it seems as if this bit of data is yet one more to add to the never-ending list of misinformation and innaccuracies that she spews. If AK cannot even tell the truth about whether or not a washing machine works in her apartment, and if she's ever used it, how can we expect to believe what she says when testifying about more serious, germane issues?
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Offline Giustizia


Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:13 pm

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Location: New York City

PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:52 pm   Post subject:    

Greggy wrote:
I wonder if a cell phone network disconnect signal could tell you roughly where the phone was located when it disconnects. If so, there is the possibility that the disconnect signal could place RS at the cottage before the murder, and not at his computer as he has said.


I'm not an expert in cell phone record analysis, but in this case and others, there's oftentimes the question about WHICH transmission tower actually captured the signal and what it indicates about one's physical location. If you're in a car, for instance, and speaking on your cell phone, the call is handed off from tower to tower as you head down the highway. But I think sometimes there is confusion about what this information indicates. In fact, it has been brought up in this case in at least a couple of instances. PL's cell phone indicated that he was in the area near the house around 20:30 that night (as to the exact time, I'm relying on memory right now so don't quote me). That fact was not disputed and actually helped implicate him needlessly.

A call was placed on Meredith's phone 22:13 and there was a dispute between RS's attorneys and Micheli about which tower captured the signal and what it implied. Micheli shut them down, though as their claim was ludicrous.

[I'm cutting-and-pasting from my own post here from a few days ago]
According to True Justice, Judge Micheli, in rejecting the lone-wolf theory in his 106-page report, made the following observations:

"He notes Raffaele’s apparent lies about the time he made the 112 phone calls. He dismisses Raffaele’s defense claim that the disposal of Meredith’s phones didn’t allow time for Raffaele to get to the cottage after watching his film, kill Meredith, and then dispose of the phones in Via Sperandio before the aborted call to Meredith’s bank. He noted that the cell [transmission tower] which picked up the brief 22:13 call to Meredith’s bank also picked up most of Meredith’s calls home.

He asked whether it was possible for anybody to believe that each time Meredith wanted to phone home, she walked down to Via Sperandio to make the call. He notes that the police found Amanda and Raffaele’s behaviour suspicious almost straight away."

In other words, the transmission tower that picked up the 22:13 call was physically close to via Sperandio, but did not indicate that the phone ITSELF was in Elisabetta Lana's garden at that point. He reaches this conclusion because he notes that many other times the Meredith made calls home to England (from her apartment in Perugia) the transmission tower close to via Sperandio also picked up the call. But logically, as he points out, "...it [wasn't] possible for anybody to believe that each time Meredith wanted to phone home, she walked down to Via Sperandio to make the call."

Better than transmission towers, though, most phones now have GPS capabilities. That should make it even easier, in the future, to triangulate someone's position on the ground at any given moment. And the ironic part is that many of us turn that feature on! On my iPhone, for example, Location Services are currently turned on for Google Maps. But then, putting aside the Big Brother implications, I'm not in the habit of committing heinous crimes and then lying about it, so I'm not worried that my whereabouts can be reconstructed while testifying in a court of law.
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Offline mojo


Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:31 pm

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:18 pm   Post subject:    

The Machine wrote:
bolint wrote:
Skep wrote:
"Had 40 euros in his bank account on Nov 1. "

I don't think that was a factor.
With a new woman money burns fast. :D

Rudy, however, was really broke.


The sexual assault, torture and murder of Meredith was not motivated by theft.


so, where did meredith's rent money go?
rudy used it for his train ticket??

i've wondered if amanda didn't take it and meredith challenged her. amanda made a remark or asked a question of one of the other two roommates about still being able to live at the house after meredith's murder. if she had been exposed as a thief....it's not so much about the money but the theft would have brought amanda's world crashing down. if not in reality, in her head. i've nothing to support this, but little things have been niggling me, and i keep thinking that somehow it is the theft that was a trigger.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:54 pm   Post subject: Water Only Flows Downhill   

:!: Brand spanking new Kermit Powerpoint! :) - WATER ONLY FLOWS DOWNHILL

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:06 pm   Post subject:    

The Machine wrote:
"The sexual assault, torture and murder of Meredith was not motivated by theft. "

Clearly not, but I think whatever happened Rudy stole/got the money.

Does anybody know if he paid his rent?
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Offline Giustizia


Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:13 pm

Posts: 113

Location: New York City

PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:07 pm   Post subject: Joe Jackson sings: Is She Really Going Out With Him?   

The title of a (fairly) recent Times Online article (January 19, 2009) may be a bit misleading: We are innocent lovebirds not Meredith Kercher’s murderers, trial told

According to the article: "...defence lawyers exploited the media spotlight to launch impassioned speeches on behalf of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, saying they were not murderers but innocent "lovebirds'."

So do either AK or RS claim to still be an item? Are they fidanzati preparing to elope once they're declared innocent (at least, that's what THEY hope). After all, RS DID send roses to her in July for her birthday. I'm just curious how one manages a romantic relationship while in prison (add sarcasm here). After all, it's not as if they can arrange conjugal visits.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:14 pm   Post subject:    

"A call was placed on Meredith's phone 22:13"

It doesn't make a difference in positioning, but it was her phone that was called (received an MMS) at that time.
The unsuccessful call from her phone to Abbey Bank was at 22:00.
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Offline Giustizia


Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:13 pm

Posts: 113

Location: New York City

PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:19 pm   Post subject: Wikipedia   

I'm really surprised that the Wikipedia article Murder of Meredith Kercher has not been subjected to the typical flurry of edits that usually accompany such controversial topics - to the point that Wikipedia has to limit editing rights to only a chosen vetted few. Given how the Seattle PR firm hired by the Knox family tends to micromanage every blog site and article on the web, and how the trollisti tend to foul up the discussion - followed by corrections, clarifications, and refutations by the colpevolisti camp - it's strange that there isn't much activity on that entry. Usually Wikipedia articles are the first point of attack by both sides in a media battle.

Does anyone who participates on the PMF blog monitor that article?
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:28 pm   Post subject:    

Giustizia wrote:

Quote:
So do either AK or RS claim to still be an item? Are they fidanzati preparing to elope once they're declared innocent (at least, that's what THEY hope). After all, RS DID send roses to her in July for her birthday. I'm just curious how one manages a romantic relationship while in prison (add sarcasm here). After all, it's not as if they can arrange conjugal visits.


Knox's official parents (for television appearances) have said that they are no longer an item. And RS did not send roses in July; he sent an exotic hothouse flower called [have to find it again - anthelium or somethng], which is quite prevalent in tropical paradises like Hawaii. But I think the relationship did not survive Sollecito throwing Knox under a bus at the first opportunity.


OT))) Joe Jackson came to Seattle a few months back and put on a fantastic show. That he still plays with the same musicians after all these years is amazing. He is amazing. :)
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:34 pm   Post subject:    

Giustizia wrote:

Quote:
I'm really surprised that the Wikipedia article Murder of Meredith Kercher has not been subjected to the typical flurry of edits that usually accompany such controversial topics - to the point that Wikipedia has to limit editing rights to only a chosen vetted few. Given how the Seattle PR firm hired by the Knox family tends to micromanage every blog site and article on the web, and how the trollisti tend to foul up the discussion - followed by corrections, clarifications, and refutations by the colpevolisti camp - it's strange that there isn't much activity on that entry. Usually Wikipedia articles are the first point of attack by both sides in a media battle.


I hadn't thought about this before. Maybe you have just opened a can of worms. ;)

And:

Quote:
Does anyone who participates on the PMF blog monitor that article?


I can't answer for anyone else. I check it once a week or so but have never tried to edit it.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:43 pm   Post subject:    

Kermit's latest submission is genius! Sheer genius! Thanks, Kermit. You made me laugh! You made me cry! You made me think! Now I have to take a nap...

_________________
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Offline Giustizia


Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:13 pm

Posts: 113

Location: New York City

PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:47 pm   Post subject: Re: Water Only Flows Downhill   

Water Only Flows Downhill A brand-spanking-new Kermit PowerPoint presentation!

Bravissimo! Another incredible performance! Kudos to Kermit for a terrific slide show discussing the recent desecration of the victim's bedroom and tampering with the crime scene.

Frankly, if I were a member of the Perugian police and were to conjecture about who might have broken into the house recently, Franco Sollecito would be a person of interest and the very first individual I would interview. He's already been implicated, back in June 2008 when police tapped his phones, in making plans to get senior politicians to use their influence and get detectives whom the Sollecitos considered hostile taken off the case.

Giustizia wrote:
"'We've got to flay the Perugia flying squad,' a family member was overheard saying, according to the Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera. 'If we can get rid of the head of homicide and that other one, we'll be OK.'

Relatives of Sollecito, including his sister, a policewoman, were also overheard discussing politicians who could help their case. Giulia Buongiorno, a lawyer and MP in Silvio Berlusconi's ruling coalition, has now been retained to represent Sollecito. 'She can help out on this case at a political level,' Sollecito's father was overheard saying.

Sollecito's father, Franco, a well-to-do doctor from Bari in southern Italy, has campaigned to prove his son's innocence, even to the point of allegedly leaking to a TV station a video obtained from the crime scene showing Kercher's corpse, as well as highlighting perceived errors by the investigators, including the delayed recovery of parts of Kercher's bra strap which were found to carry Sollecito's DNA."


If I'm looking for a motive for breaking into the building and giving the proverbial middle finger to the police in Perugia, there's already someone connected to the Kercher murder who has, over the past year-and-a-half now, show himself /very/ willing to complicate matters, to propagandize for his son's innocence, and even to break the law--in other words, do anything and everything necessary to secure his son's freedom. How great a leap of the imagination is it to envision Franco Sollecito paying two or three local youths to break in to the building, ransack the place, and arrange those knives?
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Offline Tara


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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:59 pm   Post subject: Kermit's PowerPoint   

Kermit,

Unbelievable work. Thank you! A must see for everyone - I hope my neighbors didn't hear me howling at my computer screen! ;)
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Offline Giustizia


Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:13 pm

Posts: 113

Location: New York City

PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:10 pm   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
I hadn't thought about this before. Maybe you have just opened a can of worms.

That wasn't my intention, but the fact is, lots of people have been caught attempting to "shape" the conversation on Wikipedia on any number of topics. My immediate reaction upon reading the Barbie Latza Nadeau piece in The Daily Beast last week was to search Wikipedia, given its prominence on the web, and I'm certain I'm not the only one.

I haven't revealed state secrets here. And I haven't revealed anything that a lot of PR, marketing, and damage control professionals have probably considered already (if they haven't, they should be fired immediately). Frankly, I would be surprised if it hasn't been considered before by at least /some/ members of PMF.

Politicians, PR and marketing companies, and an army of attention-seeking idiots have edited/deleted/defaced any number of entries on the site. The Meredith Kercher article is the very first result in Google when searching on her name, so I guarantee that page generates more page views on the topic than any other on the web. Any competent PR firm would do a search on the most frequently used search terms, and then start from there if they wanted to interject their voice into the discussion. I'm surprised Fort Know isn't Twittering too.

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
I can't answer for anyone else. I check it once a week or so but have never tried to edit it.

Well, that's because I get the impression that you have a life, too, outside of the Internet! And I think there's a practical limit to how many web sites one can monitor. That said, editing the page is straight-forward. And it's really surprising, given the media blitz elsewhere, that there's practically no information whatsoever on the entry regarding any of the events that have taken place in the past few weeks in the trial.
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:27 pm   Post subject: Kermit's pp   

Kermit,


Your PP Water-Only-Flows-Downhill is amazing. You had me rolling on the floor from laughter. Those speech bubbles of papa Sol with his lawyer are hilarious!
All the characters at the secret meeting at fort Knox are spot on. :lol:

La bloguera culinaria es lo mas torpe que jamas se haya visto!

Excellent work. Thank you. :lol:
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Offline petafly


Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:08 pm

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Location: Switzerland/Germany

PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:58 pm   Post subject:    

[align=center]
Quote:
Bundestag disaster
Current mood: relieved

oops. so, you remember how i said tha i had no idea what i was in for at the bundestag. aparently i really had no idea, because i left. straight up left the building because i was sick and they had nothing for me to do there. of course i told them that i wouldn't be returning and all of that,but what i didnt knwo is 1) how fun berlin is when you dont have to work, and 2) how much i would piss my family off for mot sticking to it at the bundestag. so here goes:

i left because there was nothing for me to do. absolutely nothing. i followed my boss around when he left his office,a nd when we were back in his office i read harry potter (german style!) in a corner of his office. okay...so i got sick the second day because i actually had a pretty bad flu that kept me in bed for three straight days the weeks before, so i went home early and decided i wasnt going back. i was in the way and they didnt need me there anyway. i called in the next morning and that was that. then i walked, and walked and walked and walked. all over berlin, for two whole days. it was great. i was supposed to pick up a bus on friday, so i spent wednesday and thursday wandering around berlin, seeing things, meeting people, drinking a glass of wine in a park near my apartment every night. fantastic.

then i got back home to hamburg and found out i was in trouble with my uncle who ahd landed me the job at the bundestag in the first place. aparently he had to go to a lot of trouble to get me my spot there and everyone was confused as to what had happened to me. so i talked to him today and explain ed the mess, but not before freaking out and crying a little becaue i was afraid i made my uncle look bad in front of these very importan people. oops. to say the least.

thanks god my uncle uve is one of the nicest guys out there. he heard me out and said he'd take care of everything, i didn't need to worry about it. i feel like an idiot, but at least everything is alright.

and now im just going to chill here in hamburg for another week and then im heading to italy for good. so BWAHAHHAHAAHAH. i have no idea why that's halerious, but it seemed appropriate. so there.

ciao suckers. loves from across the ocean.
[/align]


from her myspace account. What a irresponsible chick!

Did you noticed that Amanda was constantly babysitted while in Germany, Austria and on the first trip to perugia. They spent alot of time and money to escort her. On the second, apparently final trip to perugia, her uncle drove her from Hamburg to Perugia (perhaps i didnt understand her right, Hamburg-Perugia by car would be a 20h+ journey).

They didnt let her be all by herself for too long. As if they knew this risk-seeking girl would soon be in trouble. And i bet they knew!
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Offline stewarthome2000


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Location: Perugia, Italy

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:18 am   Post subject: DNA...   

Even that lunatic liberal as they come Joy Behar on the TV show "The View" asked Nancy Grace, "doesn’t that sew up the case?", when Grace stated that Knox's DNA was found on the handle and the victim's DNA was found on the blade. It pretty much indicates to most that if the DNA evidence is reliable, it’s enough of a smoking gun to convict Knox.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujzpVa3hMmM
(speed up the the 5min mak)

However, it is the reliability of the DNA knife eveidence that is in question.
I don’t think many have gone through the trouble of reading about DNA evidence, alleles, locus, genomes, CGT, polymorphism, RFU, etc, etc. So I hope this might help.

I read directly Michele's sentencing report in Italian where he addressed the issue of the DNA. For the most part he states, grosso modo, that some of the identifiable peaks land between 28 and 40 RFU which is generally considered low (below 50), but that in and of itself does not mean the results are unreliable. I believe the examiner, Dr. Stefanoni is saying that there is “no immediate” correlation between the height of the peaks and the reliability of the sample. The are other more important factors are the location of the corresponding peaks and its relation to the amplification used to distinguish it from other factors like noise. Contamination in the laboratory is categorically excluded by Dr Stefanoni.

What does that all mean… it means that the low readings are quite acceptable, period, provided that they are present in relation to the amplification scale (threshold) used and are significantly distinguishable. He states that likewise there are problems with high peaks results as well, as it risks masking relatively lower significant peak results. It’s only when the proper amplification scale is used that the lower results, which would have been considered insignificant compared to the high peaks (high threshold used), become distinguishable and recognizable as significant and whereby a flat noise threshold can be determined. So even little spikes (lower than 150 or even 50 or less) in the right places, mean more than the peak height if they can be distinguished as “not part of the noise. etc.”. Apparently, this is the case with the Kercher sample on the blade. The sample was small and the peaks are low. But with low peaks in the right places, it may be considered a match under the right analytic circumstances. In short, the lower number of compatible peaks the less likelihood it is her DNA. So the defense needs to kick out as many as possible.

I guess what the defense is saying is that the peaks under some level, for example 150 in amplitude, are considered to close to noise and thrown out, so if there are say 10 or so allele test and matches the DNA analysis, and 8 are low, they may only consider 2 of them significant which means the DNA could be from say 1 in 4 people, and hence it impossible to say its Kerchers. But not so fast...

However, check out the following DNA study:
“Threshold Issues: Short Peaks, “Weak” Alleles.
From: Evaluating Forensic DNA Evidence: Essential Elements of a Competent Defense Review
William C. Thompson, Simon Ford, Travis Doom, Michael Raymer and Dan Krane

http://www.cs.wright.edu/itri/EVENTS/SU ... Krane2.PDF

It basically states that traditionally RFU peaks below 150 would be considered low read with extreme caution. But new software and techniques allow for special amplification of the data allowing much lower RFU (40 or below) to be considered significant and count. This under special conditions etc. , every peak, even low, that is in the right spot and distinguishable above noise, may be counted (see graphic). And if there are acceptable peaks in enough locations the chances that it is NOT Kerchers DNA get smaller and smaller smaller up to nearly one in quadrillion.



We really need to see the actual charts and have an EXPERT interpretation of the results and methods used. It will be interesting to see what happens.
Having read Michele’s report and copious documentation on www.dna.gov this is what I concluded. If there are experts who know better please correct anything I have stated.

Nevertheless, all I hear from FOA is how the DNA on the blade is NO GOOD, it means nothing and could be anyones and corresponds to 20% of the population..well not so fast...

I am no DNA expert so can anyone second what I have said here? If not, please correct me so we get it right.
Else this puts things in pretty good perspective.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:44 am   Post subject: Re: Fare la lavanderia sporca   

Giustizia wrote:
And another thing...! (there's a mountain of minutiae in this case)

The point about the washing machine in this case fascinates me. If it was on and running when the postal police arrived at midday on November 2, 2007, then at the very least, AK knows how to use it (or her boyfriend does, since the instructions are probably in Italian). Not earth-shattering news at face value, but it's part of the accretion of evidence that points to complicity on the part of AK (and RS, indirectly) in the crimes that took place.

Was it established that it was indeed running at that time and if so, whose clothes were being laundered? Didn't one of her roommates actually confirm that the machine was hot to the touch, indicating it had recently been used? I researched the PMF, and here's just one observation:

Sexe, mensonges & Erasmus (Sex, Lies & Erasmus)
Article paru dans l'édition du 27.01.08 (Article published on January 27, 2008)
Pérouse (Ombrie) Envoyé spécial Jean-Jacques Bozonnet (Filed from Perugia (Umbria) by special envoyé JJ Bozonnet)*

[a portion of the article that I believe Skeptical Observer translated]
"There was a smashed window pane. The disorder made it look like a burglary. However, the investigators realized almost immediately that a fairly meticulous clean-up had been done. Why were there only four fingerprints belonging to Amanda in the cottage where she lived? Why did she begin a load of wash that morning, at a very high temperature and using lots of bleach, mixing her clothes with those of Meredith’s—laundry on which the police found suspicious-looking marks?"

So the machine was mid-cycle, and it contained both MK's and AK's clothing. Not only that, there were suspicious-looking marks on the clothes.

On her MySpace page, in a post dated Monday, October 15, 2007 AK writes: "My house is awesome, we just got a washing machine the other day, though it was broken. Luckily, Laura started dating a hadnyman [sic] so he came over and fixed it for us."

BUT! AK also claimed that the washer never worked. In an interview with "Frank Sfarzo" here were AK's answer w/regard to the washing machine:
FS: "Did you use the washing machine on November 2?"
AK: "I've never used the washing machine. It was always broken so I preferred going to the laundromat where there was the dryer too. I don't know what that stuff was, probably still the stuff Meredith had put in the day before." (posted on Perugia Shock on December 2, 2008: Superwitness and Forgetful)

On the one hand, this is mundane (according to bolint in a post on this blog, Micheli doesn't even mention it). On the other, though, as we examine AK's personality quirks, it seems as if this bit of data is yet one more to add to the never-ending list of misinformation and innaccuracies that she spews. If AK cannot even tell the truth about whether or not a washing machine works in her apartment, and if she's ever used it, how can we expect to believe what she says when testifying about more serious, germane issues?



In his sentencing report, Micheli only addresses the evidence which suggests RS and AK direct involvement with Rudy Guede in Meredith's murder or that which was contested by their defences.

There is a wealth of other evidence against them which he doesn't mention, either because it doesn't directly connect them to Rudy Guede or wasn't argued by their defenses.


Last edited by Brian S. on Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:46 am   Post subject: Kermit's Powerpoint   

:!: Kermit's PP has been downloaded 27 times already! However, he's just informed me that there was a fault in his PP with the hyperlinks causing them not to work. I've deleted the original file and uploaded the fixed version. Therefore, if you want the version with working hyperlinks, please re-download.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline DLW


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:41 pm

Posts: 623

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:51 am   Post subject:    

Mojo wrote:

‘so, where did meredith's rent money go?
rudy used it for his train ticket??
i've wondered if amanda didn't take it and meredith challenged her.’

That theory has been on the table for some time and most likely is still there. Rudy has been harping for sometime this was a major cause of friction between M & A that evening. The other flat mates said that there was a discussion of rent money a few days before, and Amanda said that Patrick hadn’t paid her. Implying she didn’t want to take money out of her account, and was pinching penny’s. I also read somewhere that it was Amanda’s turn to hand the money to the landlord? Since Amanda knew Meredith had the money sitting idle till rent day, it’s plausible that in her mind she was justified in swiping the money a few days ahead of time. Particularly if she needed it right away. And it could have been this spark that led to what happened, and the sexual assault was an opportunity.
Amanda however said in her one confession that sex was the primary motivator in this murder. This is where the courts are going with, and in this case appears to be a much stronger of the two motivator‘s, The judge either thinks that Rudy didn’t take the money, because of the staging. Or not enough proof to tack on a burglary charge to Rudy, which may have resulted in a life sentence instead of 30 yrs.
The Machine certainly makes a valid point of where does the torture fit in for theft alone.

Kemit your PP was simply awesome!

‘This under special conditions etc. , every peak, even low, that is in the right spot and distinguishable above noise, may be counted (see graphic). And if there are acceptable peaks in enough locations the chances that it is NOT Kerchers DNA get smaller and smaller’…stewarthome2000

I think you are right on. I also think the DNA ‘experts’ over at FOA are more interested in keeping the folks from panicking.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 1:17 am   Post subject: Micheli REport   

If anyone yet hasn't seen it, a majorly important new article written by Brian on Judge Micheli's Sentencing Report has been published on TJMK

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 1:45 am   Post subject:    

DLW wrote:
Mojo wrote:

‘so, where did meredith's rent money go?
rudy used it for his train ticket??
i've wondered if amanda didn't take it and meredith challenged her.’

That theory has been on the table for some time and most likely is still there. Rudy has been harping for sometime this was a major cause of friction between M & A that evening. The other flat mates said that there was a discussion of rent money a few days before, and Amanda said that Patrick hadn’t paid her. Implying she didn’t want to take money out of her account, and was pinching penny’s. I also read somewhere that it was Amanda’s turn to hand the money to the landlord? Since Amanda knew Meredith had the money sitting idle till rent day, it’s plausible that in her mind she was justified in swiping the money a few days ahead of time. Particularly if she needed it right away. And it could have been this spark that led to what happened, and the sexual assault was an opportunity.
Amanda however said in her one confession that sex was the primary motivator in this murder. This is where the courts are going with, and in this case appears to be a much stronger of the two motivator‘s, The judge either thinks that Rudy didn’t take the money, because of the staging. Or not enough proof to tack on a burglary charge to Rudy, which may have resulted in a life sentence instead of 30 yrs.
The Machine certainly makes a valid point of where does the torture fit in for theft alone...


Rudy wasn't charged or found guilty of theft of the money.

AK and RS have both been charged with the theft of Meredith's money. The prosecution must have some kind of evidence which they can present else they cannot press this charge in court.

As I suggested in a post above, I suspect Amanda is unable to explain the E250 she had in her possession when she was arrested and the police have even bothered to check Sollecito's account to see if it came from there.

I noticed nearly a year ago that Chris Mellas was guilty of one of those "defense ommissions" when he posted on Haloscan.

He said that Amanda had plenty of money in her bank account. I believe he said she had over $4000. However, not once in those conversations did he ever say that a bank transaction demonstrated that Amanda had actually withdrawn her rent money. The prosecution have primed the gun on this charge when they asked Filomena and Laura about the rent conversation during their evidence at the trial two weeks ago.

Current situation: Amanda said that Patrick owed her money but hadn't paid her - to be cont'd at a later stage of the trial.


Last edited by Brian S. on Thu Feb 26, 2009 1:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Giustizia


Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:13 pm

Posts: 113

Location: New York City

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 1:46 am   Post subject: Formula for disaster   

Miss Represented has posted another brilliant piece on her blog: Raffaele

Miss Represented wrote:
A knife/violent manga fetish + paranoia + drug problem + lots of money = high probability of trouble on the horizon.
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Offline Tara


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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 1:57 am   Post subject: Reporting from the field   

Harry Wilkens is keeping everyone updated over at the table. Here is his latest warning:
Quote:
Posted by Harry R. Wilkens at 2/25/09 5:09 p.m.

Here in Geneva it's no more so easy to get GENTE. The only place where it's sold is the Main station. And it's arrival is delayed from day to day. And each time there are the Gypsy beggers and junkies harassing me. I will try my chance this Thursday morning.
Please watch out that the Mignini gang doesn't change the Wikipedia article in his sense, because it's important as it is utilised by those lazy journalists. There is really a Mignini-Youth at work...


On a more serious note, Yummi had some interesting thoughts on the theft of Meredith's cash:

Yummi replied to Bob over at the bog:
Quote:
Bob wrote:

someonewhoknows states that Judge Micheli is most likely not a bad person. However, he fabricated facts to both defend the prosecutors notions of a conspiracy and he obviously fabricated facts to state that Amanda Knox opened the door for Rudy Guede. There was no video camera there and there were no witnesses stating such to verify this event. And why did Judge Micheli ignore Rudy's DNA and prints on Meredith Kercher's purse and then charge Amanda and Raffaele with the theft when their prints were no where to be found? Interesting!

First, just remember that AK is not accused of stealing items from Meredith's purse. She is accused of stealing money from her room (the money was supposed to be in a drawer) while there is no mention of Meredith's purse. And btw the reason for the accusation of stealing being against Amanda instead of Rudy, is that Amanda is the one accused of staging. The theft is considered a crime only as a possible detail of a staging and altering the scene. Legally it is not even a theft (you cannot steal things to a dead person).

But, about Micheli "fabricating" facts. What I see is that some non-Europeans are note used to understand what a Gup is, what a is a preliminary judge's work, and so people like Bob feel this as "slander" or "fabrication" of facts. First of all a preliminary judge cannot determine any fact in a trial. He has to determine and prove facts only in relation to Rudy's guilt. The accusations against Amanda's are expressed only in those parts where they are useful as part of a scenario to accuse Guede. Not only Micheli doesn't have a duty to prove what he says against Amanda: he has the prohibition of doing this.
A Gup does not "fabricate facts"; to use a provocative alternative, we can say that a Gup "fabricates suspect". His job is to produce material which has to be challenged in a trial. He only writes his evaluation (motivation to instruct a trial, if the whole set of clues is suspicious enough) and sends with it the whole file evidence of the investigation. His judgement is not the answer, not the "destination", he is rather like a traffic light green/red light to an investigation to enter a trial.
If you evaluate a preliminary judge's work with the parameters of an adversarial system, you feel as somebody who is delivering injustice and slander. But the logic makes a sense only in its system. It's like – as rough example – to compare a mathematical system with binary logic to one with a three-values logic: it is a different system, and it is not comparable. Micheli is simply not paid and not allowed to serve "justice" to Amanda, it is not his job, he was never demanded to do so.
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Offline Giustizia


Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:13 pm

Posts: 113

Location: New York City

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:04 am   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Here's something weird: I just reread Knox's short story - not the one about the rape fantasy, but the one about the manuscript reader who is being stalked. The story is really hard to follow as far as the plot goes. At one point, as the narrator (a mother with a snotty daughter named Aislin who at one point calls her a bitch) is entering her house, Knox writes that she "fumbled with her kids". I think she meant "keys". Is that a lapsus révélateur? (A Freudian slip)


I assume you're referring to the short story titled "The Model" which was posted Monday, November 6, 2006. I cannot get through it. It's second-rate in terms of structure, exposition, and character development. AK does not suffer from an overabundance of talent in the creative writing field. As for the possible Freudian slip in this 'graph:

"Aislin. The shining black street in front of my townhouse attempted to reflect the streetlamp light with warped dimensions. The other buildings squeezed in around me and even my own home towered over me menacingly, like overhanging branches in a half-dead forest. I shivered violently and fumbled with my kids."

Sorry, but I don't know what the hell she meant. Maybe she struck the wrong keys on the keyboard. It's all drivel, though, and I can usually read anything, no matter how poorly written. I can't even imagine what the Freudian slip might be! "Fumbled with my kids...?(instead of keys, obviously). I go blank - there's no dots to connect with anything else I know about the suspect re kids/keys.

But frankly, the rape fantasy short story I find extremely disturbing. I've heard it mentioned a few times now, and I shudder just thinking about it.
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Offline Giustizia


Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:13 pm

Posts: 113

Location: New York City

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:24 am   Post subject: Re: Reporting from the field   

Tara wrote:
Please watch out that the Mignini gang doesn't change the Wikipedia article in his sense, because it's important as it is utilised by those lazy journalists. There is really a Mignini-Youth at work


Now that's bullsh*t. And it was what I was afraid of when I posted earlier today about Wikipedia. Harry understands this too - lazy journalists (there seems to be a plague of them lately) will google "Meredith Kercher." The first result is the Wikipedia entry, and that's what they'll click on. They'll consider it a primary source, not understanding the potential for bias and misinformation, simply take whatever is written at face value, and file their story.

That said, I can't find any reference to Mignini on Wikipedia and am uncertain what Harry is referring to. I think he means: "Watch out that the Mignini gang doesn't change the Wikipedia article so that it reflects positively on him."

The problem w/Wikipedia will be ongoing, and it's this: Now and in the foreseeable future, for most topics it will be the go-to reference on the Internet given it's outsize influence and the fact that so many articles show up on the first page of Google regardless of the search terms used. Students writing papers on the trial, casual observers, and lazy journalists will all unflinchingly take it as fact, regardless of what's written. As it's written now, it's incomplete too as it's missing any content discussing the past several days of testimony - which proves my point. Anyone can edit/delete/change content at will. It's not a peer-review journal, it's not even a newspaper.

So if anyone has the time to review/edit/contribute to the article: Murder of Meredith Kercher I think it would be much appreciated by those of us that prefer objectivity and balance in discussing this case, especially on a site that many, if not most, people will use as their single point of reference.
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Offline Giustizia


Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:13 pm

Posts: 113

Location: New York City

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:29 am   Post subject: Last AK MySpace post   

When was the last MySpace entry posted by AK? Was it: "Finally...A Little Bit of Italy" dated Monday, October 15, 2007?
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Offline Tara


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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:41 am   Post subject: Harry Wilkens' delusions   

Hi Giustizia :)

Harry refers to the pro-justice sites as the Mignini Gang, and the "Mignini youth" in that post of his. He imagines that PMF and TJMK are comprised of Mignini's friends, relatives, daughters, ? and that Mignini is behind these sites!

The FOA, Candace Dempsey and Frank are ALL extremely fortunate to have him as their guest and supporter, don't you think? :lol:
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Offline Giustizia


Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:13 pm

Posts: 113

Location: New York City

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:15 am   Post subject: Re: Harry Wilkens' delusions   

Tara wrote:
Harry refers to the pro-justice sites as the Mignini Gang, and the "Mignini youth" in that post of his. He imagines that PMF and TJMK are comprised of Mignini's friends, relatives, daughters, ? and that Mignini is behind these sites!


Well, Skeptical Bystander recently admitted that Giuliano Mignini is her uncle, so maybe Harry is on to something! Imagine, Zio Giuli :P
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Offline stewarthome2000


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Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:47 am

Posts: 152

Location: Perugia, Italy

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:08 am   Post subject: Re: Harry Wilkens' delusions   

Giustizia wrote:
Tara wrote:
Harry refers to the pro-justice sites as the Mignini Gang, and the "Mignini youth" in that post of his. He imagines that PMF and TJMK are comprised of Mignini's friends, relatives, daughters, ? and that Mignini is behind these sites!


Well, Skeptical Bystander recently admitted that Giuliano Mignini is her uncle, so maybe Harry is on to something! Imagine, Zio Giuli :P


This letter just arrived..

Ciao Ragazzi!
Itza Zio Gigi..I no much speakada english so much. Ma I just gotta tellya youza doing a wonderful job. That sommama bitch Harry and, come si chiama, of yeah Cantadice la Verita Dempsey they are driving me a crazy. One says uncle Gigi he make uppa diss, and da other say uncle Gigi make uppa dat. Now I gotta reporter they comma to my house justa when my wife she bring out the salsiccia e pepperoni per cena! Mama mia.

Ma dissa Knox sheza crazy too. I sayz, Amanda we founda da bloody knife ina da drawer next to da fock. She sayz “fock, OK!”..I sayza No! Amanda you no understand we finda you DNA in da house, in da kitchen on da pans and pot..she says “pot..you got any?”..she drivin me crazy. She no understand! All she say isa let it be dis and let it be dat. I dunno whattama gona do.

Anywayz, I gotta go make a more shit up so we can putta di puttana in prigione. Jutsa one more thing, does anybody know Jacka Nickalson? I wanta dat he play me ina da movie.
Arrivederci ragazzi ..stammi bene!
Zio GiGi
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Offline Giustizia


Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:13 pm

Posts: 113

Location: New York City

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:10 am   Post subject: Follow the money   

Brian S. wrote:
Rudy wasn't charged or found guilty of theft of the money. AK and RS have both been charged with the theft of Meredith's money. The prosecution must have some kind of evidence which they can present else they cannot press this charge in court. As I suggested in a post above, I suspect Amanda is unable to explain the E250 she had in her possession when she was arrested and the police have even bothered to check Sollecito's account to see if it came from there.

I noticed nearly a year ago that Chris Mellas was guilty of one of those "defense ommissions" when he posted on Haloscan. He said that Amanda had plenty of money in her bank account. I believe he said she had over $4000. However, not once in those conversations did he ever say that a bank transaction demonstrated that Amanda had actually withdrawn her rent money. The prosecution have primed the gun on this charge when they asked Filomena and Laura about the rent conversation during their evidence at the trial two weeks ago. Current situation: Amanda said that Patrick owed her money but hadn't paid her - to be cont'd at a later stage of the trial.


This post is eye-opening because for the longest time I downplayed the issue related to the €250, only because I have no idea how any court of law could prove where a discreet sum of money in someone's pocket originated and how they spent it over the course of time. By extension, I didn't know how the Perugian investigators could prove that Meredith started out w/€250. Even if she withdrew that sum of money earlier in the day, she could have spent it in any of a hundred different ways.

But this seemingly untraceable, uninvestigateable point of contention (to me, anyway) might prove much more valuable than I realized. AK and RS have both been charged w/stealing Meredith's money, and that could prove to be the key to the case. Because if they stole her money, the whole house of cards begins to collapse. Stealing Meredith's money means that both of them were in the house at some point. And that, of course, negates their claims that they spent the night at RS's apartment. They have presented all kinds of convoluted alibis concerning their whereabouts throughout the evening and in the first half of November 2, and each have actually accused the OTHER of committing the crimes while they slept in Raffaele's apartment. But if one builds the case against them logically by following the money, then they have a lot of explaining to do. And as we've seen, they rarely have a believable explanation for most of the events that took place that night.
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Offline Giustizia


Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:13 pm

Posts: 113

Location: New York City

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:15 am   Post subject: Re: Harry Wilkens' delusions   

stewarthome2000 wrote:
Itza Zio Gigi..I no much speakada english so much. Ma I just gotta tellya youza doing a wonderful job. That sommama bitch Harry and, come si chiama, of yeah Cantadice la Verita Dempsey they are driving me a crazy. One says uncle Gigi he make uppa diss, and da other say uncle Gigi make uppa dat. Now I gotta reporter they comma to my house justa when my wife she bring out the salsiccia e pepperoni per cena! Mama mia.

Ma dissa Knox sheza crazy too. I sayz, Amanda we founda da bloody knife ina da drawer next to da fock. She sayz “fock, OK!”..I sayza No! Amanda you no understand we finda you DNA in da house, in da kitchen on da pans and pot..she says “pot..you got any?”..she drivin me crazy. She no understand! All she say isa let it be dis and let it be dat. I dunno whattama gona do.

Anywayz, I gotta go make a more shit up so we can putta di puttana in prigione.


stewarthome2000, I have not laughed so hard in weeks. I was literaly ROARING as I read this. Thank you very much for a hilarious post!
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:57 am   Post subject:    

Giustizia wrote:

Quote:
stewarthome2000 wrote:
Itza Zio Gigi..I no much speakada english so much. Ma I just gotta tellya youza doing a wonderful job. That sommama bitch Harry and, come si chiama, of yeah Cantadice la Verita Dempsey they are driving me a crazy. One says uncle Gigi he make uppa diss, and da other say uncle Gigi make uppa dat. Now I gotta reporter they comma to my house justa when my wife she bring out the salsiccia e pepperoni per cena! Mama mia.

Ma dissa Knox sheza crazy too. I sayz, Amanda we founda da bloody knife ina da drawer next to da fock. She sayz “fock, OK!”..I sayza No! Amanda you no understand we finda you DNA in da house, in da kitchen on da pans and pot..she says “pot..you got any?”..she drivin me crazy. She no understand! All she say isa let it be dis and let it be dat. I dunno whattama gona do.

Anywayz, I gotta go make a more shit up so we can putta di puttana in prigione.


stewarthome2000, I have not laughed so hard in weeks. I was literaly ROARING as I read this. Thank you very much for a hilarious post!


I have been waiting since, like, forever for a sign from Zio Gigi! Finally! :)
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:11 am   Post subject:    

Tara wrote:

Quote:
Harry refers to the pro-justice sites as the Mignini Gang, and the "Mignini youth" in that post of his. He imagines that PMF and TJMK are comprised of Mignini's friends, relatives, daughters, ? and that Mignini is behind these sites!


I don't mind the sly reference to Nazi Germany, as long as Harry gets in the "youth" bit. Maybe I can shave 20 years off my CV. Ya think?! :lol:
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Offline mojo


Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:31 pm

Posts: 225

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:44 am   Post subject:    

from this Peter Popham in this morning's Independent -

Knox: 'I could hear Meredith screaming'

Court in Perugia to see Amanda's rambling statement written the day after British student's murder

A rambling handwritten statement by Amanda Knox in which she recalls hearing the screams of her murdered British flatmate will be accepted as evidence in her ongoing trial in Italy.

Ms Knox, 21, has previously claimed that she spent the night of 1 November 2007 at her boyfriend's flat, and not in the Perugia apartment she shared with Meredith Kercher.

The statement, in which she writes of how "I saw myself cowering in the kitchen with my hands over my ears because in my head I could hear Meredith's screaming", echoes what her lawyers call her "false confession" to police in the hours following the murder. That verbal admission under interrogation by detectives was declared inadmissible by the judge in the murder trial of Ms Knox and her boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito. But this statement, written the next day, will be accepted.

"In regards to this 'confession' that I made last night," Ms Knox writes, "I want to make clear that... they [sic] were made under the pressures of stress, shock and extreme exhaustion. Not only was I paranoid I would be arrested and put in jail for 30 years, but I was also hit in the head when I didn't remember a fact correctly.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 9:07 am   Post subject:    

Frank has just posted on the washing machine:


"(...)
The reason for which this website has never considered the perfect element of the washing machine is very simple, because I doubted of it as soon as it came out and I've been looking for confirmations. A very reliable and very inside source, at that time --pressed about that-- finally admitted that it wasn't spinning, it wasn't warm, just the stuff inside was wet. I relied on that admission and I left this and other legends to those specialized in mythology and false information about the case. Being in good company, though, since no judge has inserted this element in their review (while the shooters' blogs elected the washing machine even to being an icon of Amanda's guiltiness). Only recently, with the rumor of the washing machine resurrected (certainly not from my side), I made readers happy and I sent also that question to Amanda (she confirmed she never used it).

And so I was kind of surprised when the witnesses of November 2 were heard, at the trial, and the prosecutor would ask the all of them if the washing machine was working or warm. The prosecutor didn't forget anyone, he asked the postal police, Romanelli, Altieri, Zaroli, Grande... But there was nothing to do, under oath none of them could remember the washing machine spinning or hot. The guests didn't even know of its existence and Filomena had other to think about when she got to the house.
(...)"
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Offline FinnMacCool


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:23 am   Post subject:    

bolint wrote:
Frank has just posted on the washing machine:
(...)"


I guessed the comments right anyways. :)
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Offline LucyJ


Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:11 pm

Posts: 23

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:51 am   Post subject:    

bolint wrote:
Frank has just posted on the washing machine:


"(...)
The reason for which this website has never considered the perfect element of the washing machine is very simple, because I doubted of it as soon as it came out and I've been looking for confirmations. A very reliable and very inside source, at that time --pressed about that-- finally admitted that it wasn't spinning, it wasn't warm, just the stuff inside was wet. I relied on that admission and I left this and other legends to those specialized in mythology and false information about the case. Being in good company, though, since no judge has inserted this element in their review (while the shooters' blogs elected the washing machine even to being an icon of Amanda's guiltiness). Only recently, with the rumor of the washing machine resurrected (certainly not from my side), I made readers happy and I sent also that question to Amanda (she confirmed she never used it).

And so I was kind of surprised when the witnesses of November 2 were heard, at the trial, and the prosecutor would ask the all of them if the washing machine was working or warm. The prosecutor didn't forget anyone, he asked the postal police, Romanelli, Altieri, Zaroli, Grande... But there was nothing to do, under oath none of them could remember the washing machine spinning or hot. The guests didn't even know of its existence and Filomena had other to think about when she got to the house.
(...)"


On her MySpace page, in a post dated Monday, October 15, 2007 AK writes: "My house is awesome, we just got a washing machine the other day, though it was broken. Luckily, Laura started dating a hadnyman [sic] so he came over and fixed it for us."

It absolutely doesn't make sense to me that anyone would see fit to mention a washing machine if they never used it. It's presence (or lack thereof) makes quite a difference to the ease of lving in a rented home.
Quite frankly, it's a pian, not having a washing machine - having to traipse across to a laundrette, hang around whilst the washing/drying gets done, not to mention paying several euros for the "priviledge" when one could wash clothes at home for free.

These absurd claims (in my opinion) make AK's story ever less believable. If she's tryibg so hard to distance herself from the washing machine, then this suggests that there is something to hide in that respect. In the (frankly unlikely) event that she had done an innocent mixed wash with some of Meredith's clothes that were not involved/contaminated by the "incident", then I'm sure any examination of the contents of the machine would show just that. Yet AK is acting like there is something to hide.

If the strories about bleach and a high temperature are true, then there almost certainly is something to hide.

Having said all that, I remember a story from early on about AK being spotted in a launderette early in the morning in the day following MK's death. Has that now been discounted as rumour?
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:15 am   Post subject:    

"If the strories about bleach and a high temperature are true, then there almost certainly is something to hide. "

If...
But a couple of thing did not turn out so far as it had been expected.


"Having said all that, I remember a story from early on about AK being spotted in a launderette early in the morning in the day following MK's death. Has that now been discounted as rumour? "

It was early afternoon (13:30), so it couldn't be Amanda, it was after the discovery of the murder.
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Offline mojo


Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:31 pm

Posts: 225

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:28 am   Post subject:    

have the contents of the washing machine all been identified as belonging to meredith?
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:36 am   Post subject:    

Quote:
From Mojo's post:

"In regards to this 'confession' that I made last night," Ms Knox writes, "I want to make clear that... they [sic] were made under the pressures of stress, shock and extreme exhaustion. Not only was I paranoid I would be arrested and put in jail for 30 years, but I was also hit in the head when I didn't remember a fact correctly.


Was it the questioners or was it Amanda who banged her head? I suspect this will come up at trial.

It's a well known fact that some people will bang their head when subjected to stress and shock.

Many people will do it once or twice with the heel of their hand to the side of their forehead as they struggle to come to terms with some sudden surprise, realisation or revelation.

The investigators said Amanda kept repeating she couldn't remember what happened that night and frequently banged the side of her head with both fists clenched.

FAO of Amanda:





Mr Ghirga argued in court that a statement Ms Knox made early in the inquiry admitting that she was at the house was made under duress, without a lawyer present...

The Times - 30th November 2007




'Amanda wasn't hit. There were pressures from the police, sure, but we never said she was hit.

Luciano Ghirga in a filmed interview at Perugia Shock recorded outside the court at the pre-trial.


Last edited by Brian S. on Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Catnip


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Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:08 am

Posts: 2997

Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 1:39 pm   Post subject:    

Quote:
Why don't you want them [AK and RS] to have done it? I'm not challenging you - I'm just curious what you would prefer. The lone wolf, perhaps?


Giustizia,

Apologies. Sometimes I forget Australian English is drifting off in a slightly different direction, especially with verbs like want to have (besides all the other linguistic things going on, like Google trans is really, really confusing when you know a bit of both the source and destination languages).

Anyway, what I tried to say was from being embedded inside their timelines, and looking along towards potential futures, after the sword of Lady Justitia falls (as in, strikes in impartial judgment): this is a movie, and they have done what they have done, and now they are driving towards the cliff, yet there is still time to change direction… But: they are still heading for the cliff, with no intention of veering off for help. I want them to ask for help, so the healing can proceed more fully, and also unabated and unhindered.

Plus there was also the “presume-them-innocent and protect-the-next-generation-for-they-are-our-hope” instinct partially verbalising itself in the word “want”.

Oh well, “there is still the other one”, as Yoda once said.



On another note:
If Amanda blogged this about Germany:
Quote:
and now im just going to chill here in hamburg for another week and then im heading to italy for good.

was the for good part for good? (i.e., not a Freudian slip, but a glimpse instead from the Jungian Unconscious about the path she was on?)


Michael,
Thanks for fixing the photo thing. The solution is quite obvious really, but only great minds can see the obvious (definitely not me when it’s the local midnight!).
Sorry, everyone.

The news services have started posting about the 27 February hearing.
Back into the jungle….

The hearing is coming up, so say
Sarda and
AGI
and, Raffaele’s friends are rallying around with support letters (including Fabiola, an old ex):
Libero
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Offline daisysteiner


Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:59 pm

Posts: 490

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:45 pm   Post subject:    

Remember the last Popham article where a guy called Liam claimed to know Meredith before dismantling Popham's article? Well Ol' Liam is back again and good for him. His comments are as follows:

Peter Poham, the Knox family's Max Clifford
liam_ohuigin wrote:

Thursday, 26 February 2009 at 09:40 am (UTC)
Bravo Mr Popham, another bravura attempt to portray Amanda Knox as the victim of a miscarriage of justice. 'A source close to the family': who? The father? You? (There's no national security involved here - why can't you name names?) has apparently 'explained' the nature of Knox's second confession. Using the word 'explained' implies a degree of objectivity: what we have here is merely a claim, but you have to make more of it than that. What is your agenda?

Your position on this case is so perverse that one has to wonder what motivates you. You have traduced just about everybody involved in this case to maintain your ludicrous position. I suppose it's only a matter of time before you start casting aspersions on Miss Kercher herself, in which case such reputation as you retain will be completely shredded."


I agree with Liam's last line, how long will it be before a Knox apologist comes out and blames Meredith for her own death? There is no miscarriage of Justice when it comes to Knox. Why is that?
BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO BE CONVICTED TO HAVE A MISCARRIAGE OF JUSTICE!!!! Being on remand is normal in Europe and USA, that is what Amanda is! Give it a couple of months though and the very thing that the FOA have wished for will come true - a conviction so they can bleat about poor Italian justice!
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Offline Giustizia


Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:13 pm

Posts: 113

Location: New York City

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:16 pm   Post subject: If Peter Popham picked a peck of proof   

mojo wrote:
from this Peter Popham in this morning's Independent: Knox: 'I could hear Meredith screaming'

Court in Perugia to see Amanda's rambling statement written the day after British student's murder


When it comes to this trial, sometimes I feel as if there is an alternate reality, populated by people like Anne Bremner and Peter Popham, a world made of clouds, an ephemeral world in which there is nothing tangible - just a haze or a fog. But certainly, no EVIDENCE of life.

Here's Popham pooh-poohing the pile of proof (parroting Bremner when she was quoted as saying: "The prosecution has no forensic evidence at all. Zero. None."):

Peter Popham wrote:
"But in fact there has so far been no "hard evidence" that Ms Knox was in the house at the time of the murder.

The sole forensic evidence of Ms Knox having participated in the murder, however, was her fingerprints on a knife which allegedly had Ms Kercher's DNA on the tip. The knife was found not at the crime scene but in Mr Sollecito's house. The only evidence linking Mr Sollecito to the scene is his DNA, which was identified on the clasp of Ms Kercher's bra."


Perhaps if Peter Popham were to peruse the PowerPoint presentations, he'd perceive the pile of proof proffered by the Perugian prosecution.
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Offline Michael

Site Admin


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Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:34 pm   Post subject: Water Only Flows Downhill   

:!: It has transpired that there were still some teething problems with Kermit's fixed version of the powerpoint (concerning the hyperlinks). To fix it once and for all, he's stripped it down frame by frame and rebuilt it from the bottom up and it now works like a dream. I have re-uploaded his PP, so if any of you were wanting the definitive version final release, please re-download. My apologies. I suppose it is only to be expected as Kermit's powerpoints become evermore complex and ambitious. But we wouldn't have it any other way. I actually get excited when I hear a new powerpoint is on its way...and one gets the feeling as they get better and better, that they are evolving into something even more special and unique. For that, I'll take the teething problems any day. Kermit, a big thanks to you for putting is so much work.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline Giustizia


Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:13 pm

Posts: 113

Location: New York City

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:44 pm   Post subject: Mr. Frank "Maytag Man" Sfarzo   

Frank Sfarzo is the Maytag man too!

Frank Sfarzo today says: "...it wasn't spinning, it wasn't warm, just the stuff inside was wet."

Big deal! Maybe it was mid-cycle, Mr. Frank "Maytag Man" Sfarzo! Did you ever stop to consider that?! Who says you can't interrupt a load of wet clothes? Why are the clothes wet? If the victim did a load of laundry the previous evening, the clothes would have been almost dry after the final spin cycle. Then they would have sat in the washer for at least 15 hours. If so, they would have dried on their own accord - they would have been damp at best. If the clothes were wet, it would indicate that AK did a load of wash at some point mid-morning on November 2.

Frank Sfarzo today says" "...it wasn't spinning, it wasn't warm, just the stuff inside was wet."

Just to stir up a hornet's nest (as if it really needed any more stirring!) - has anyone ever discussed how a European (Italian) washing machine works? It's not the same as an American one (oh damn, another culture difference that we have to consider). I lived in Italy for three years in the 90's, and domestic washing machines (not those in laundromats) - as well as dryers - function differently. Since electricity is much more expensive in Italy, washers and/or dryers have been engineered to use as little energy as possible. If I recall correctly, the typical setting on a washing machine can take hours (whereas, in the U.S., it's usually 30-45 minutes normally). The various cycles stop after a short amount of time, and the machine lies dormant for many, many minutes. The process relies on the clothes just soaking in the sudsy water too, not expending more energy than necessary to agitate them. So if the washer wasn't spinning when the postal police surprised the little lovebirds tanning session outside (they were taking a much-needed break from spring cleaning the apartment, don't ya know), then maybe, just maybe, it was because the washer was mid-cycle.

Can someone who is knowledgeable about how an Italian washer works weigh in on this and set the record straight. Methinks we might have to find out what model it was.
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Offline Fly by Night


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:09 pm

Posts: 1014

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:50 pm   Post subject: Timing is everything...   

mojo wrote:
A rambling handwritten statement by Amanda Knox in which she recalls hearing the screams of her murdered British flatmate will be accepted as evidence in her ongoing trial in Italy.

Ms Knox, 21, has previously claimed that she spent the night of 1 November 2007 at her boyfriend's flat, and not in the Perugia apartment she shared with Meredith Kercher.

The statement, in which she writes of how "I saw myself cowering in the kitchen with my hands over my ears because in my head I could hear Meredith's screaming", echoes what her lawyers call her "false confession" to police in the hours following the murder. That verbal admission under interrogation by detectives was declared inadmissible by the judge in the murder trial of Ms Knox and her boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito. But this statement, written the next day, will be accepted.


Explain, explain away but day-in day-out it all adds up to something, doesn't it. We heard about how Amanda recalled hearing screams a long time ago, but the way the words are actually written, it sounds like someone describing what they did immediately following a murder, not during the murder itself.
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Offline Kermit


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Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:37 am

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:01 pm   Post subject: Re: Water Only Flows Downhill   

Michael wrote:
there were still some teething problems with Kermit's fixed version of the powerpoint (concerning the hyperlinks) ... My apologies

The apologies are mine, Michael. While the prior version of the most recent powerpoint was 99% solid, there was 1% of bad links which gummed things up. I promise, it now works at 100%, and I will not be changing it any more, so if anyone wants the definitive version,

CLICK HERE: http://perugiamurderfile.freeforums.org/post5092.html#5092

I should say - without making any promises - that I am considering making a "Water Only Flows Downhill II". If you have any ideas, please PM me.

========
Jools wrote:
La bloguera culinaria es lo mas torpe que jamas se haya visto!

¡Saludos Jools! Es verdad que a veces la cocinera me da pena, ¡pero es torpe ... con ganas!
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Offline Giustizia


Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:13 pm

Posts: 113

Location: New York City

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:02 pm   Post subject: Re: Water Only Flows Downhill   

Michael wrote:
I suppose it is only to be expected as Kermit's powerpoints become evermore complex and ambitious. But we wouldn't have it any other way. I actually get excited when I hear a new powerpoint is on its way...and one gets the feeling as they get better and better, that they are evolving into something even more special and unique.


What they're evolving into is a 21st-century web-based multimedia presentation that will far surpass any old-fashioned book that Candace Dempsey might write. Forget Perugia Shock, forget the Wikipedia entry on the crime, forget, even for a moment, this forum and TJMK - if Kermit were to find a way to merge all the PowerPoint presentations into one cohesive document (for example, each current PPP could be a chapter) that were hosted on the web (in other words, it wasn't required to download them as PPP), it would serve as a powerful reference for future legal scholars, researchers, and all other interested parties.

What I'm saying is this - PMF and TJMK are models, really, a prototype, for investigating crime, and it's driven not by lawyers, PR firms, or the courts, but rather by the power of the populace seeking truth and justice through the use of modern technology - hyperlinks, audio, video, legal documents, real-time translations, and social networking. The phbBB forum software is a crude tool, and I applaud everyone in how they've fashioned solutions to present the various multimedia. But it's kludgy, cobbled together with work-arounds that are difficult to navigate, and only if you're really determined will you click around to drill down.

Let me know back-channel if there's any interest in pursuing a way to stitch all the various PPP together online.
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Offline nicki

Forensics Moderator


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:27 am

Posts: 847

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:16 pm   Post subject: Re: Mr. Frank "Maytag Man" Sfarzo   

Giustizia wrote:
Frank Sfarzo is the Maytag man too!

Frank Sfarzo today says: "...it wasn't spinning, it wasn't warm, just the stuff inside was wet."

Big deal! Maybe it was mid-cycle, Mr. Frank "Maytag Man" Sfarzo! Did you ever stop to consider that?! Who says you can't interrupt a load of wet clothes? Why are the clothes wet? If the victim did a load of laundry the previous evening, the clothes would have been almost dry after the final spin cycle. Then they would have sat in the washer for at least 15 hours. If so, they would have dried on their own accord - they would have been damp at best. If the clothes were wet, it would indicate that AK did a load of wash at some point mid-morning on November 2.

Frank Sfarzo today says" "...it wasn't spinning, it wasn't warm, just the stuff inside was wet."

Just to stir up a hornet's nest (as if it really needed any more stirring!) - has anyone ever discussed how a European (Italian) washing machine works? It's not the same as an American one (oh damn, another culture difference that we have to consider). I lived in Italy for three years in the 90's, and domestic washing machines (not those in laundromats) - as well as dryers - function differently. Since electricity is much more expensive in Italy, washers and/or dryers have been engineered to use as little energy as possible. If I recall correctly, the typical setting on a washing machine can take hours (whereas, in the U.S., it's usually 30-45 minutes normally). The various cycles stop after a short amount of time, and the machine lies dormant for many, many minutes. The process relies on the clothes just soaking in the sudsy water too, not expending more energy than necessary to agitate them. So if the washer wasn't spinning when the postal police surprised the little lovebirds tanning session outside (they were taking a much-needed break from spring cleaning the apartment, don't ya know), then maybe, just maybe, it was because the washer was mid-cycle.

Can someone who is knowledgeable about how an Italian washer works weigh in on this and set the record straight. Methinks we might have to find out what model it was.


Hi Giustizia,
I have been living in Europe for over 20 years now, and in Italy since 1998. I've had two different washers since I've been here: a Whirpool washer (no dryer), and an Italian washer/dryer (Indesit) that I've purchased last year. The Whirpoool had only few cyles, the shortest one being 90 minutes and the longest one approaching three hours (for heavily soiled laundry). The Indesit I have now, has several choices: from a 30 minutes cycle to a max of 180 minutes, depending on the amount and type of garments to be washed, plus drying time -going from 30 to 180 minutes. So, if the cottage washer is a new generation one, I would assume that it has all kind of programming cycles: from 30 minutes up to 3 hours. Was it a washer/dryer? Then that would make a difference because clothes would be warm if the drying cycle had been started. If not, then clothes would be wet but cold. I think there's really no telling unless we know what brand and type of washer was used .
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:30 pm   Post subject:    

Kermit wrote:

Quote:
I should say - without making any promises - that I am considering making a "Water Only Flows Downhill II". If you have any ideas, please PM me.


I assume you have already realized the absolute necessity of weaving the ubiquitous Harry Wilkens into the narrative. I was also hoping to see O8 make at least a brief appearance to let everyone know that everything THEY know and believe is wrong. However, she is a bit player and I guess she's busy importing swimming caps from Italy for resale in New Zealand. :)
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:46 pm   Post subject:    

Giustizia wrote:

Quote:
Michael wrote:
I suppose it is only to be expected as Kermit's powerpoints become evermore complex and ambitious. But we wouldn't have it any other way. I actually get excited when I hear a new powerpoint is on its way...and one gets the feeling as they get better and better, that they are evolving into something even more special and unique.


What they're evolving into is a 21st-century web-based multimedia presentation that will far surpass any old-fashioned book that Candace Dempsey might write. Forget Perugia Shock, forget the Wikipedia entry on the crime, forget, even for a moment, this forum and TJMK - if Kermit were to find a way to merge all the PowerPoint presentations into one cohesive document (for example, each current PPP could be a chapter) that were hosted on the web (in other words, it wasn't required to download them as PPP), it would serve as a powerful reference for future legal scholars, researchers, and all other interested parties.

What I'm saying is this - PMF and TJMK are models, really, a prototype, for investigating crime, and it's driven not by lawyers, PR firms, or the courts, but rather by the power of the populace seeking truth and justice through the use of modern technology - hyperlinks, audio, video, legal documents, real-time translations, and social networking. The phbBB forum software is a crude tool, and I applaud everyone in how they've fashioned solutions to present the various multimedia. But it's kludgy, cobbled together with work-arounds that are difficult to navigate, and only if you're really determined will you click around to drill down.

Let me know back-channel if there's any interest in pursuing a way to stitch all the various PPP together online.


I am still thinking about the wikipedia entry, but part of me wants to wait and see how it... er... evolves in the hands of Harry Wilkens, who is probably editing as we ponder the issue.

I think PMF and TJMK are a prototype not just for investigating crime but for investigating any subject that benefits from the collaborative input of disinterested people who are located all over the world. It is ironic, but in the eyes of some observers our enterprise is suspect because we aren't driven by money, personal gain, PR, narrow or vested interests.
In fact, several of our members have received anonymous emails suggesting that our interest in this case derives from some deep emotional vacuum in our lives. Last week, a couple of paid posters showed up here and there to make the same argument, warning others that even looking in on our work could lead to emotional illness.

And you are right about our software being a crude tool. It's all we have for now, but we're always open to suggestions and ideas.

One of the best things about Kermit's presentations, and indeed about the stuff posted here, is that they reintroduce some of the artifacts that have been subjected to late-night blog bleaching efforts and other forms of revisionism.
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Offline Kermit


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Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:37 am

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:50 pm   Post subject: Water Only Flows Downhill II   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
I assume you have already realized the absolute necessity of weaving the ubiquitous Harry Wilkens into the narrative.


The possibilities are endless: I can imagine Captain Cook and team-mate Hairy "Gollum" W., doing the Michael Jackson moonwalk backwards down the gravel entrance to the cottage (they do this to confuse Sra. Nara, who is listening at the window). From there, the most obvious access point is chosen: Filomena's window. They throw olive pits at the glass until it breaks, then rope together as they did in their practice climb on Mt. Rainier, under the careful instruction of The Judge. Little do they know .....................
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:56 pm   Post subject:    

Bolint wrote:

Quote:
"If the strories about bleach and a high temperature are true, then there almost certainly is something to hide. "

If...
But a couple of thing did not turn out so far as it had been expected.


"Having said all that, I remember a story from early on about AK being spotted in a launderette early in the morning in the day following MK's death. Has that now been discounted as rumour? "

It was early afternoon (13:30), so it couldn't be Amanda, it was after the discovery of the murder.


The issue of laundry and washing machines is far from settled. Sollecito writes that Knox took an empty bag to gather clothes to take home for washing. It isn't clear from his story whether she filled the bag (with dirty clothes) at his place or not. So let's say she went home to get more dirty clothes for the laundromat. Did she complete this task or was she sidetracked by the strange things she discovered at the cottage? Strange, but not strange enough to deter her from taking a shower, blow-drying her hair, or remembering to take a mop and bucket back to clean up the water Sollecito had "spilled" (as per AK) or that had leaked onto the floor because of the missing piece from the pipe (as per RS), flooding half the apartment (as per RS). So what happened to the trip to the laundromat, assuming that Knox never used the brand new washing machine because it was "broken all the time"? Is there a bag of dirty clothes somewhere, waiting to be washed?
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Offline Giustizia


Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:13 pm

Posts: 113

Location: New York City

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:05 pm   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
I think PMF and TJMK are a prototype not just for investigating crime but for investigating any subject that benefits from the collaborative input of disinterested people who are located all over the world.

Excellent point! It doesn't have to be a crime investigation.

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
It is ironic, but in the eyes of some observers our enterprise is suspect because we aren't driven by money, personal gain, PR, narrow or vested interests.

It's unfathomable to a certain subset of hardened cynics that there just might be some human beings out there in the big blue world who have a smidgen of compassion, mercy, benevolence, and humanity left after the bleach police have performed their less-than-stellar scrubbing.

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
One of the best things about Kermit's presentations, and indeed about the stuff posted here, is that they reintroduce some of the artifacts that have been subjected to late-night blog bleaching efforts and other forms of revisionism. And you are right about our software being a crude tool. It's all we have for now, but we're always open to suggestions and ideas.

Correct. It's extremely difficult to keep the facts straight, and those PPPs serve as a terrific repository. No criticism was implied regarding the efforts of everyone who use the sofware - I've worked for Internet start-ups for many years now as a content manager and in editorial production, as well as a web project manager and SEO consultant, so I appreciate how difficult it can be to find the right application. The PMF, together with the TJMK Web sites, have done a fantastic job pulling together multimedia from a broad range of sources.
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Offline Kermit


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Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:37 am

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:08 pm   Post subject: Dirty linen.   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Is there a bag of dirty clothes somewhere, waiting to be washed?


For alibi purposes, Amanda would have to have taken the bag of dirty clothes back to Raffaele's home (unless if - unbeknownst to us - the Italian police tagged a bag of Amanda's dirty laundry in the cottage).

However, if she took the bag back to Raffaele's then where are those clothes? Was there underwear amongst them? .... I guess not, because she supposedly bought underwear because she didn't have any. In fact (I have to confirm this) her family has said then when she and everyone else were evacuated from the cottage, she didn't have any clothes at all, except for the clothes on her back .....

So, we're back to the bag of laundry being in the cottage.

But ..... Amanda never mentioned anything about her laundry in her email to family and friends (although she was careful to point out that she returned to Raffaele's with the mop).

I'm sure the trial sessions will help unravel what happened to her bag of laundry.
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Offline Kermit


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:20 pm   Post subject:    

Giustizia wrote:
The PMF, together with the TJMK Web sites, have done a fantastic job pulling together multimedia from a broad range of sources.


Hi Giustizia, I like your idea of trying to stitch together everything. The only problem, and it is a big problem, is the time and effort. We have tons of text, tons of images, links to audio .... As regards the powerpoints, each one was done at a specific point in time - with the state of publicly available information at that time - and may require updating or pruning or extending before combining into the Mother of All Powerpoints (!).

For example, the Movements of Suspects Prior to Crime powerpoint (which shows how they all moved around Perugia before concentrating in some combination at the cottage) makes reference to Patrick - that could be removed. The reference to the Polish student could be clarified and updated.

Maybe instead of shooting for a "Theory of Everything" / Mother of All ppts, we could try for a Big Sister of All ppts., focused on the cottage. That could combine the Cottage history ppt, the House Plan ppt, the Luminol Footprints ppt., the mini-ppt about Filomena's window, etc.
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Offline daisysteiner


Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:59 pm

Posts: 490

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:26 pm   Post subject:    

So many of Amanda & Raf's lies do not hold up under the gaze of a passing glance let alone scrutiny. These two really should have got into CSI:Miami or whatever before staging this crime, they did an appalling job when it all comes down to it. Between Raf's fantasy supper night where he pricked Meredith with coincidently the only knife found which fits the entry wounds; and Amanda's fantasy kitchen pipe explosion which required her mega mop (and not one from the shop below which allegedly sold her bleach), they wouldn't know the truth now if it was locked up with them as a new cell mate. I'm very interested to hear what happened to the laundry bag. In fact, the FOA and I have another thing in common! I want this trial to go on every day so we can get the damn thing over with. The sooner this evidence all comes out, the better it will be for all concerned.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:32 pm   Post subject:    

Kermit wrote:

Quote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
I assume you have already realized the absolute necessity of weaving the ubiquitous Harry Wilkens into the narrative.


The possibilities are endless: I can imagine Captain Cook and team-mate Hairy "Gollum" W., doing the Michael Jackson moonwalk backwards down the gravel entrance to the cottage (they do this to confuse Sra. Nara, who is listening at the window). From there, the most obvious access point is chosen: Filomena's window. They throw olive pits at the glass until it breaks, then rope together as they did in their practice climb on Mt. Rainier, under the careful instruction of The Judge. Little do they know .....................


Let me finish that for you. Little do they know that inside the cottage, a Black Mass has just been conducted under the benevolent eye of Gabriella Carlizzi, who is puffing on a cigarette and squeezing a little voodoo object which, upon closer inspection, looks just like a miniature version of Barack Obama pooping. (She got it in Spain, but never mind that's another story.) After they open the front door to let a seething Judge Heavey* in (he has fallen due to faulty roping up techniques) and formally introduce him to Gabriella (The Cook has already met her and she and Harry go way back), The Cook decides to whip up some spaghetti and meatballs while Harry and Gabby decide on the placement of the knives and the police bag.

*I realize that in your set-up Judge Heavey remains back in the state of Washington, but I have decided to bring him along. Maybe I should add a little BMW convertible parked in the driveway, with Anne Bremner sitting inside drumming her French manicured nails on the dashboard and looking at herself in the overhead mirror on the passenger side.


Last edited by Skeptical Bystander on Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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