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XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:56 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

dmontnz wrote:
It is with a heavy heart I must declare Michael, for his extended posts above, completely insane. He should be banned from this site before he does irreparable damage to the cause of finding the actual truth in this killing. Ergon, please dissociate yourself for your continued credibility.

Note
You have been BANNED!!
Reason: For abuse, and, violation of the Tuesday Rule for Friends Of Amanda Knox



Well clearly, since you went out of your way to register to the forum simply so you could troll me over it, you felt very threatened by my posts. Ravings by real lunatics are almost always ignored by people as they are a threat to no one. A very good example of that, is the constant vomiting out of loony ravings by your nutjob mates over on Ground Report. They really are insane, so as a rule we tend to completely ignore them.

But, back to my posts. It must be understood that when I write out my perspectives and reasoning for them, I consider them to be my own and am not writing dogma that everyone else is expected to fall in line with. People are free to agree or disagree or simply scroll on by, that's how the collegial debate process works. This, you wouldn't understand, as we are driven by a desire to truly understand the dynamics of this case. In contrast, you people are merely about putting out talking points and stifling original thought or any kind of thought at all which is off-message in order to serve a self-serving agenda. Not that I'm the one who will lose any sleep over that, for as we both know, the writing is on the wall and Amanda Knox's time and yours with her, is nearly over.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:04 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

max wrote:
The gastric emptying theory is one of the most obvious examples of the dishonesty of Knox supporters. Claiming a 3 hour delay of the start of gastric emptying is normal or probable is just a straight lie. The theory is even supported with links to articles that show half an hour is normal, but spin and spin and now the TOD is at 9pm. It is a miracle.

Another theory that made it in my top 3 of most deceiving is the luminol footprints were 'something' other than blood. This supported with lists that show incredible substances of which most don't even react with luminol as blood does. Pretending that once upon a time Knox walked in front of Meredith's door and rubbed some fruitpulp on her feet is just hilarious, but it is being endlessly twisted because the less sensitive and different TMB test was negative. Spin and spin and the luminol footprints right in front of a room with a pool of blood were from 'something' else.

To finish my top 3 of ridiculous theories I must add the contamination theories. Here one after the other is launched. One week Know once borrowed the bra, next week a glove person picked it up from a fingerprint of Sollecito on the door, then suddenly that is all dropped because it all came from the machine. Doesn't matter where it came from as long as it is not from Sollecito touching the bra. Primary DNA transfer? That makes far too much sense. Tertiary transfer is being promoted without ever going into the probabilities of that or any science to support it. Contamination theories are so exaggerated that basically every piece of evidence found on a floor should automatically be tossed. Anyway, spin and spin and it is all the fault of the evil Italians.

I don't know what it is. Some people are just trolling, others are in denial, or brainwashed. I once saw a program on how to straighten out a brainwashed person. It wasn't pretty. There are many more of those (the coercion theories are hilarious also). I laugh about it now :mrgreen:



Innocent people don't require defending with an endless parade of cock and bull stories. The fact Knox and Sollecito seem to need them is proof positive in and of itself to any casual observer that they are as guilty as sin. Bullshit is not a defence, it's an implicit confession.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:18 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
Michael?


Yeah, Houston, we have a problem. My bad. I uninstalled the forum's non-English language packs as they didn't work due to a raft of missing files and they were causing people problems when trying to use them. Instead of simply disabling them, it removed them from the server altogether. The intention, was to re-install them at a later point and in so doing, install all the missing files that are causing the problems. However, for some reason I don't understand as it shouldn't be the case, some of our buttons and our banner are now missing. This should be fixed shortly, as I have requested the deleted directories and files to be restored from our previous back-up of the forum.

My apologies to members for any alarm, confusion or inconvenience

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I hope Greg Hampikian likes the new tweet about him:

https://twitter.com/harryrag/status/508332319061848064

Please retweet. Thanks.
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 1:01 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I hope Paul Ciolino likes the tweet about him:

https://twitter.com/harryrag/status/508418590245404672

Please retweet. Thanks.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 1:27 am   Post subject: MORE IDIOCY JIM CLEMENTE   

https://twitter.com/JimClemente/status/ ... 6476993537 6 Sep 2014
Quote:
Jim Clemente
‏@JimClemente @manfromatlan @PMFdotNet Learn how to read dummy! I said I read his analysis AFTER I concluded RG acted alone. #AnotherNaseerLie!!!

Quote:
Naseer Ahmad ‏@manfromatlan · 8h
@JimClemente @PMFdotNet The Guede acted alone conclusion came from your mentor John Douglas, another ex-FBI willing to see what he wants.

https://twitter.com/JimClemente/status/ ... 2455785472
Quote:
Naseer Ahmad ‏@manfromatlan · 7h
@JimClemente What convinces you Rudy Guede acted alone? Don't say your qualifications, which is a false debating trick.

Quote:
Jim Clemente ‏@JimClemente
@manfromatlan Because unlike you, I have seen thousands of rape murder scenes and there is no way the MK murder room had 3 people in it.

Quote:
Naseer Ahmad ‏@manfromatlan · 2h
@JimClemente Do you know the dimensions of the room? Is there an FBI manual stating minimum size of room required for three assailants?
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 1:38 am   Post subject: MORE CLEMENTE STUFF   

https://twitter.com/JimClemente/status/ ... 5811657729 6 Sep 2014
Quote:
Gracie ‏@tgra1961 · 6h
@manfromatlan @JimClemente Qualification seems to be the magic way to know everything. I know lots of qualified people who make mistakes

Quote:
Naseer Ahmad ‏@manfromatlan · 5h
@tgra1961 @JimClemente It shouldn't be used as a way to avoid discussion. As soon as we quote real experts, he goes onto personal attacks.

Quote:
Jim Clemente
‏@JimClemente @manfromatlan @tgra1961 What real experts do you quote? The ones who based their findings on misrepresentations and contaminated evidence???

Quote:
Naseer Ahmad ‏@manfromatlan · 2h
@JimClemente @tgra1961 Rhetorical question and circular argument. Contamination was argued, never proven


I really wish he wouldn't tweet at me, so I feel I should respond. Clearly not well.
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Offline corpusvile


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 3:04 am   Post subject: Re: MORE CLEMENTE STUFF   

Ergon wrote:
https://twitter.com/JimClemente/status/508360455811657729 6 Sep 2014
Quote:
Gracie ‏@tgra1961 · 6h
@manfromatlan @JimClemente Qualification seems to be the magic way to know everything. I know lots of qualified people who make mistakes

Quote:
Naseer Ahmad ‏@manfromatlan · 5h
@tgra1961 @JimClemente It shouldn't be used as a way to avoid discussion. As soon as we quote real experts, he goes onto personal attacks.

Quote:
Jim Clemente
‏@JimClemente @manfromatlan @tgra1961 What real experts do you quote? The ones who based their findings on misrepresentations and contaminated evidence???

Quote:
Naseer Ahmad ‏@manfromatlan · 2h
@JimClemente @tgra1961 Rhetorical question and circular argument. Contamination was argued, never proven


I really wish he wouldn't tweet at me, so I feel I should respond. Clearly not well.


He blocked me a while ago, lol. :D
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 4:36 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Do we give them too much importance? They haven't done their homework but collectively, they reinforce lies which the media then repeats. Thanks to the Twitter campaign, they won't dare. Peter Van Sant pleads with harryrag to "trust their conclusions", LOL.
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Offline corpusvile


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:38 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I think it's very important to counteract their lies with the truth. I don't think it's giving the actual propagaters of lies importance. I certainly wouldn't regard the likes of the Weiner, Clemente et all as having any importance, but the social medium they use is a powerful one, so it's important to counteract such blatant dishonesty imo. It won't make a difference to Cassation of course, but will help show who Knox & Sollecito really are to those who use such mediums.
Such dishonesty within the context of two guilty as sin killers is profoundly immoral to me, and such things thrive if ordinary people stand by and do nothing about it, imo.
It's the right thing to do ultimately. ;)
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 9:12 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Nell wrote:
Bruce Fischer reaches a new low by composing (= photoshopping) Amanda Knox's image onto one of Meredith Kercher's photos suggesting they were friends.

He does not clarify that the image is a fake and to newcomers it won't be obvious.

Hidden Content: show
Image


According to Follain (page 48), the furrier should have done an "informational poster" about "friends" like this:



Last edited by Jackie on Wed Sep 10, 2014 6:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 2:19 pm   Post subject: I SHOULDN'T, BUT AN AMANDA KNOX PSYCHOLOGICAL PROFILE   

Whoever's doing those brilliant photo images of Clemente et al on Twitter, bravo and it's a great idea to do one showing they were NOT friends.

Please add:

They only knew each other a short while.

Meredith's real friends called Knox's behavior callous.

Didn't attend the memorial.

Meredith calls Knox her flat mate, not a friend.

The ripped pages from Knox's diary. Feelings of hate?

Little Brother story.

Break in with masks to threaten her room mate in Seattle.

The Marie Pace story.

The band HOT video.

Anger issues.

As Joh said, "she's guilty and fucking nuts".
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 2:36 pm   Post subject: MORE PROFILING AMANDA KNOX   

Original Post February 14, 2014

Jester wrote:
Thanks. If I understand correctly, Guede led a rather normal life, for a 20 year old, until 1-4 months prior to the murder. Then, for some reason, he became involved in break and enter crimes. The timing is interesting, because something similar is said of Knox. She apparently led a normal life in Seattle and then, 3-4 months before the murder, she changed in terms of throwing away her job in Germany, taking advantage of her relatives, and living a more high risk lifestyle.

What Guede seems to be saying is that there's a short period in his life where he made very bad choices, but that those few months do not define him. Knox says the same thing about that time period in her life. In fact, those few months will always define both of them, but today, Guede is not a drifter, drug dealing thief and Knox is not an irresponsible, drug crazed, hook up.


@Jester, what is normal? He did have a more difficult childhood http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/R ... mann_Guede (source: Darkness Descending Paul Russell) and the loss of connection with his real father, the adoptive family relationship with the Caporalis breaking down, then losing his job in Milan, must have affected him deeply. A contemporary of Knox- just six months older, they seemed to have started 'acting out' almost simultaneously as soon as the lack of control/direction became apparent. Knox, earlier, if the stories of her drug/alcohol bingeing (source: Angel Face Barbie Nadeau) and self-medicating can be believed.

Note: This is where the Knoxii really started getting on my case, when I commented on a photo of hers, that according to Traditional Chinese Medicine principles her tongue showed signs of heavy alcohol/drug abuse. The SNP candidate "Rolfe", who probably hates TCM as much as she hates homeopathy, declared a jihad right then and there. I, of course, note that she also believes there was a cover up over Pan Am Flight 103, so she must have quite an interesting relationship with Wikipedia administrator Slim Virgin, who keeps tight reign on all stories about the Lockerbie bombing. Interesting, given that the two must surely share notes over how to control the Meredith Kercher Wikipedia page :(

-------

ETA: In another post I referred to contemporaries at UW coming forward to say she appeared to be self medicating for some sort of (undiagnosed) personality disorder.
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 4:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I hope Anne Bremner likes the new tweet about her:

https://twitter.com/harryrag/status/508 ... 76/photo/1

Please retweet. Thanks. It literally takes a couple of clicks on your mouse. Anne Bremner has misled millions of people about the case and has undoubtedly caused Meredith's family and friends further pain.

picture of a pumpkin
This Post has been edited by a Moderator
Details: To correct URL


Last edited by The Machine on Sun Sep 07, 2014 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 4:05 pm   Post subject: MORE NONSENSE FROM ALLISON HOPE WEINER   

Having dodged a debate, Allison plays victim again Source
Quote:
Allison Hope Weiner‏@ahopeweiner 4 Sep 2014
@morristeflon @brmull And he isn't the most insane of these losers. They are all misogynistic pigs and attack women.

Quote:
Jack Stallings ‏@morristeflon · Sep 4
@ahopeweiner @brmull Yes, daily these hyenas serve up a toxic brew of misogyny and anti-Americanism. They're drunk on it.



And maybe, just maybe, she's guilty as hell?
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Amanda Knox’s lawyers threaten to sue makers of 'damaging' BBC film about murder of Meredith Kercher

* Knox's layer Luciano Ghirga believes that film will 'imply Knox is guilty'
* But the writer claims the film 'does not place the knife in Knox's hand'
* But Miss Kercher's family have given the movie their blessing
* Film, based on a 2007 book about the murder, is dedicated to Miss Kercher
* Knox served four years for Miss Kercher's murder but was released in 2011
* She has been re-convicted but is appealing to the Italian Supreme Court

By Hannah Roberts In Rome

Published: 18:01, 7 September 2014 | Updated: 18:22, 7 September 2014



SUNDAY MAIL

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 7:07 pm   Post subject: MORE FILM REVIEWS ON THE FACE OF AN ANGEL   

Tom Kington Guardian review

Murder drama gets it right. The trial of Amanda Knox was a media circus
Michael Winterbottom's new film, The Face of an Angel, is a biting portrait of the hack pack that covered the brutal murder of Meredith Kercher.
Tom Kington
The Observer, Sunday 7 September 2014

Quote:
Haunted by a broken marriage and missing his daughter, Brühl battles personal demons as he is sucked deeper into the twists and turns of the murder case, only to discover that when the appeal trial is over the journalists around him find it easy to disengage, to casually shut their laptops and move on to other assignments....

This year Kercher's family claimed Meredith had been forgotten during the media frenzy over Knox's guilt or innocence. So when Winterbottom's film finally steers the plot firmly back to Kercher and her death at its conclusion, it serves as a wake-up call. A long moment where the Kercher character stares into the camera neatly evokes the sadness of her death.


This case haunts people still.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 1:37 am   Post subject: A PASSION FOR MAKING THINGS   

OMG. Please watch this. Hope you love it as I did.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1pJIVqCC1E#t=426

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Offline hugo


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:56 pm   Post subject: Re: A PASSION FOR MAKING THINGS   

Ergon wrote:
OMG. Please watch this. Hope you love it as I did.



Delightful man. He's right, of course, that that kind of real engineering, the ability to make things, has largely disappeared. Even blacksmiths, who as lately as my childhood could make practically anything (we used to live just opposite the local blacksmith when I was five, and his forge really did look like a magician's cave, and in the tradition of smiths he was indeed grumpy and scolding towards small boys who wanted to watch him work), have become a rather chi-chi upmarket niche profession just catering to horsey people.

There is a smaller V12 engine than the one in the video -- it's the one in the late great Henri Baigent's 1/12 scale 1962 Ferrari 250 GT SWB Scaglietti Berlinetta, which Henri (he was English, not French, and I think only changed his name from Henry because he didn't like his father) made for Edward Portman, the owner of the original car. But it seems that, although that engine was fully articulated with all its moving parts, it didn't actually function as a petrol engine; it had to be powered up by an electric motor concealed in the model's display stand, and then it would drive the wheels -- the model stood on rollers, so you could run it without making it go anywhere, because it was a bit delicate to run around the garden on radio control like some of Henri's models.

Otherwise, everything in the model worked: the gearbox, the window winders, and even the speedometer, all handmade by Henri.

http://henribaigent.org/Ferrari/ferrari.htm

The website is run by Henri's son Raymond. (Edit: I notice the website misspells the coachbuilder's name. Oh, well. As I'm sure everyone knows, the standard 250 GT SWBs were all by Pininfarina. The Portman car was a one-off, like the model. And if you're wondering where Henri got the tyres from, he moulded them himself. He did everything himself. In his shed. There was nobody like him. Stirling Moss commissioned a few models from him in the Sixties, and still has one of them on his desk. It would probably still run -- Henri's models were generally good for at least 70mph -- except Henri hasn't been around to do repair and maintenance on these amazing things for the last 40-odd years.)
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 1:17 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Naseer Ahmad ‏@manfromatlan · 1m
I saw The Face Of An Angel at @TIFF_NET today. Disappointing on so many levels, will post review tomorrow. #CaraDelevingne was revelation!
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Offline corpusvile


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 1:19 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
Naseer Ahmad ‏@manfromatlan · 1m
I saw The Face Of An Angel at @TIFF_NET today. Disappointing on so many levels, will post review tomorrow. #CaraDelevingne was revelation!


I actually wasn't that keen on seeing it anyway tbh, particularly after reading rev screechy's rreview of it on IIP, although I'm glad the Kercher family approve of it.
But I'm not particularly stoked to see it even if I do watch it in time.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 2:46 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

The Reverend Screech doesn't say he saw it, "from a viewing on September 06" WTF? Stay away from the demon rum! He's 3000 kms away and came to Toronto? OK, if he says so clearly. Bruce got on the blower with Frank, was telling us on Twitter. And the reverend is Frank's biggest fan in Canada, which is why he threw over his buddy who had to call the cops.

ETA: Bill Williams did see the premiere. My review will be different than his :)
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 3:02 am   Post subject: ADMINISTRATOR NOTE!   

ADMINISTRATOR NOTE:

Hi Everyone,

Regarding the forum issues. As reported, after removing corrupted language packs the forum also lost its banner and some essential forum buttons/images. I attempted to have those areas of the forum restored from back-up. Imagine my horror, when after some back and forthing with our hosts, when they told me that the language folders were not in the back-up they had on file and they were unable to restore them.

I thought all was lost. But, with a little tinkering, I was able to fix it all myself. The forum's all fixed (all the missing button's and the banner is back) and we're good to go!!! :) :) :)

My apologies to everyone for any inconvenience suffered in the meantime.

Thank You

Michael

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"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 3:05 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

corpusvile wrote:
Well said Max, I had explained how he was getting confused over his gastric emptying on disqus to no avail. As for tertiary touch, I was debating this with Halkides on Ground Report & asked him to provide proof of tertiary dna transfer, clearly meaning tertiary touch within the context of our discussion and he put a link for tertiary dna transfer in saliva and then started playing with words and objecting that I hadn't said "touch" when asking for a citation. They're just a bunch of disingenuous fanatics imo.

Not all though. Sometimes it happens when one has made up his/her mind then nothing will ever change that. We have even seen it within the PMF community when there was some discussion about the Madeleine McCann case. Even though the cases have many similarities (evidence wise, and PR wise) there are people supporting the McCann's using similar arguments as the pro-Knox group do. So the human mind works in mysterious ways. Somebody should make a movie about that :mrgreen:
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Offline ttrroonniicc


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 11:23 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ground Report "the lamp"

Lamp brought from Knoxes room. For use, as the flex stretched towards the rooms socket. Used to check for evidence within the room. Theory that Sollecito was the final person in the room. Knox wouldn't go back into the room. May have been purposely left by Sollecito. Knox may have created the scene, trying to see inside the room or regain entry by manipulating Sollecito, the following morning, when she realised. Lamp could have been used to scan the floor for one of Knoxs missing ear-rings, ripped out during the struggle. There was absolutely no reason for the lamp from Knoxes room, to be on the floor in Meredith Kerchers room, having been used.

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 11:06 pm   Post subject: MICHAEL WINTERBOTTOM MOVIE   

A pity Michael Winterbottom didn't see this back then: louiehaha Nov 20, 2012
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 11:21 pm   Post subject: MICHAEL WINTERBOTTOM MOVIE II   

A pity Michael Winterbottom doesn't read PMF: Ergon November 20, 2012

Quote:
BOOK REVIEW
And moving on to the more important issue of this case, rather than a feckless gigolo bumming around a beach, my penultimate review of Boner Hound's journey to Hel and back. I was going to write it as a pastiche of Dante's Inferno, and I just might :) but for now, the case of the clambering monkey lawyer:

Quote:
Page 151: What about scaling the wall itself? Delfo Berretti, from Luca Maori's office, decided he would have a go, removing only his work jacket before hitching himself up onto the iron grate covering one of the boys' bedroom windows directly below Filomena's. As photos taken that day show, Berretti had no trouble maneuvering himself into a position where he could have reached into Filomena's broken window, opened it, and swung himself up to climb in


Except he didn't, couldn't, right? Your lawyer's photo (page II) shows him perched, uncomfortably, on the boys bedroom ledge, and other pictures show he barely reached the lower ledge and he's at least 4 inches taller than Rudy Guede. So, do provide the video you also had running that day, that show him unable to complete the climb as described by your defense team?


Dante, indeed :)
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:45 am   Post subject: BIBLE LESSON FOR REVEREND SCREECH   

I see the reverend Bill Williams, cock a hoop over getting into the premiere and maybe asking loaded questions of the director, has the grace to say: Et tu, Billy?

Bill Williams wrote:
MichaelB wrote:
Naseer Ahmad ‏@manfromatlan · 1m
I saw The Face Of An Angel at @TIFF_NET today. Disappointing on so many levels, will post review tomorrow. #CaraDelevingne was revelation!

If conman Naseer Ahmad doesn't like it...it's probably good.

The cheap bugger waited for the Monday showing.....

Some verses for the preacher, from the source:
Quote:
Matthew 5:22 ESV
But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire

Quote:
Ephesians 4:29
Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear.

And this, of course:
Quote:
Proverbs 15 King James Version (KJV)

15 A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger.

2 The tongue of the wise useth knowledge aright: but the mouth of fools poureth out foolishness.

3 The eyes of the Lord are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.

4 A wholesome tongue is a tree of life: but perverseness therein is a breach in the spirit.

5 A fool despiseth his father's instruction: but he that regardeth reproof is prudent.

6 In the house of the righteous is much treasure: but in the revenues of the wicked is trouble.


What is it about Amanda that drives the reverend to sin?
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 12:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hmmm...I wonder what the delay on the release of the Nencini Report translation is?

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Offline jape


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael wrote:
Hmmm...I wonder what the delay on the release of the Nencini Report translation is?


Given the large gaps between the various stages of the court proceedings there is the matter of maintaining interest and that's no doubt why publication of the translation has been held back. After all we still don't have a court date for the latest appeal which is likely to be in January now. Also we have the Pistorius verdict tomorrow and .org posters have had a vigorous thread on this which is likely to spill over to the main forum following the verdict, so I wouldn't expect the translation to become available for a while yet. Yup, it is frustrating because I'm sure it was finished a while ago.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:59 pm   Post subject: POSSIBILITIES OF EXTRADITION   



VIDEO SMU law professor discusses likelihood of Knox extradition

Conclusions:

a) Federal Judge will not retry the case

b) Very likely the US will extradite Amanda Knox once sentence conformed, and Italy issues an extradition request.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 6:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
The Reverend Screech doesn't say he saw it, "from a viewing on September 06" WTF? Stay away from the demon rum! He's 3000 kms away and came to Toronto? OK, if he says so clearly. Bruce got on the blower with Frank, was telling us on Twitter. And the reverend is Frank's biggest fan in Canada, which is why he threw over his buddy who had to call the cops.

ETA: Bill Williams did see the premiere. My review will be different than his :)


What are the chances Rev. Screech is correct when he claims Winterbottom's messsage is: 'If you want to know what happened, ask Frank Sfarzo'?

Image

We know Billy was demonstrably wrong when he claimed (~ 5,000 times) that Massei makes a "finding of fact" re "psychopathology".

We know Billy was demonstrably wrong when he claimed (~5,000 times) that Nencini "writes" at "page 243" that "y-haplotypes come from women".

And we know that Meredith's bro endorsed Winterbottom's film.

Ergo, I'm willing to bet return airfare to the next red carpet screening that Billy is, once again, demonstrably wrong. Any takers?


PS Looking forward to reading your review, Ergon!
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 6:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Nell wrote:
Bruce Fischer reaches a new low by composing (= photoshopping) Amanda Knox's image onto one of Meredith Kercher's photos suggesting they were friends.

He does not clarify that the image is a fake and to newcomers it won't be obvious.

Hidden Content: show
Image


According to Follain (page 39), and the 2009 trial transcript, the furrier could have done an "informational poster" about "friends" like this (it might have saved Fatty Ciolino from shooting himself in the foot):

Image


Last edited by Jackie on Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:01 pm   Post subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO THE SOLLECITOS   

Michael wrote:
Jackie wrote:
Ergon wrote:
Always interested to know what the Sollecito family will offer NEXT :)

By now, it is no secret they've been leaking evidence files to us for a while in an effort to affect public perception and negate Amanda Knox's chances of extradition...


Billy Screech didn't get the memo!

(He can't figure out why AK's getting slammed with cocaine stories while no one is talking about RS! LOL)



PS What are the main reasons you think it's not reasonable to conclude that RS was just a stoned/ lovesick accessory after the fact?



Hey Jackie, great to see you! :)


Sollecito's role certainly wasn't limited to after the fact. Far too much time would have passed for Knox to get herself sorted out, cleaned up, got back to his apartment, spent the time offering her explanation of what had happened, then convincing him to help her clean-up/stage the crime scene, then come to a plan of action of how they were going to do it, then get themselves over to the cottage most likely by a circuitous dark route so they were seen by as few people as possible, then case the scene to make sure nobody has stumbled on to what had happened, then examine the scene to finalise ideas about what they needed to do and anything else you can think of. By all this time, the blood would have been dry, too dry for Sollecito to get so much blood on his foot to leave that print on the mat. That print was left during or immediately following the murder when the blood was wet, which places Sollecito there during the murder. Moreover, at least three people were heard running from the scene. Finally, at least two people would have been holding Meredith while someone (I'm guessing Knox) was standing in front of her teasing/torturing her with the knife (when the victim received the very shallow knife defensive wounds to her hands).

I also don't think Sollecito was a passive follower, I think he was more keen then that. I believe the murder to have been premeditated, one of the key things demonstrating that for me is the fact they went there with knives and in addition, why did Sollecito need to get his knife out when one was enough? It wasn't necessary. It was overkill. Meredith could have been threatened with the one knife, tortured with the one knife, murdered with the one knife. Since when are two knives needed for one person, especially when the victim is unarmed and there are three of you there to restrain them and one of you has a bloody great kitchen knife? It speaks to me of Sollecito being an active and eager participant from the get-go, not a passive follower. And the usage of the two knives tells me that from the very beginning of the attack, the intent was for Meredith to be dead by the end of it.

The two knives also suggest to me a prearranged "pact" for a perverse shared intimate experience between Knox and Sollecito, that they would both land the final blows together, upheld by the fact of the deep wound on one side of the victim's neck from Sollecito's knife and a much deeper wound still on the other side from the Knox wielded kitchen knife, Knox being the one that wanted to give the coup de grace. Importantly, Guede was clearly not part of this pact since he did not have a knife. And that fact is very telling about the dynamic of what went down.

Consider...if one knife was considered not to be enough and you're going to use two knives, why not then therefore use three knives? One knife would make sense. Three knives would make sense - three attackers, one knife each. Two knives, when looked at from a purely practical perspective, do not make sense. That's because the two knives were not used out of any practical need. Neither does it make sense if the intent was only ever to scare Meredith. Certainly, having three people with three knives would have a scarier effect then three people with two knives between them. If you want to scare, why go up to two knives but not go up to three, especially if there's three of you to wield them?

Two knives do make sense, when one considers that they were used as part a pact for a special, intimate shared thrill between two lovers. Guede sexually assaulted the victim, but the pact between Knox and Sollecito forbade each other from directly sexually interacting with their victim (they would have considered it cheating on each other). But, they did perform a sexual act, psychologically. Their (permissible between them) sexual act was to symbolically rape their victim by penetrating her with their knives. The ancient Roman short sword used by the Roman legionaries was called the gladius. It was the same word for penis. The Romans saw them as symbolically being the same thing, only one penetrates for love and the other for war. Or consider the not unsubtle sexual symbolism of the vampire who orgiastically penetrates their victim's neck with their fangs. After all, and it's an important point, if the intent was simply to kill her alone, why then not dispense with knives and use a far less bloody and more practical method, especially when you're killing your victim in your own home...a cord for strangulation? It would have been more practical and far less mess would have been made, with far less evidence to manipulate or get incriminated by. The choosing of the knives was deliberate, considered, and tells me they didn't simply want it to be terrifying and brutal, this wasn't just about getting rid of someone one of them didn't like (although, it was also that, it's why Meredith was chosen). It was also a psycho-sexual thrill kill between lovers who wanted to symbolically sexually penetrate (rape) her together in the final moments, their sexual climax.

This narrative tells us something else important. Guede was very deliberately not given a knife before the attack. This tells us that Rudy wasn't simply excluded directly after the attack. He was excluded, by design, before the attack even began. Although, he almost certainly didn't realise this. This pact and exclusion was worked out before even reaching the cottage and that pact was only ever designed to end in one thing...Meredith's murder. This was a planned premeditated murder by Knox and Sollecito.

An extra: Also consider this. Knox and Sollecito both performed the clean-up/staging while barefooted. This was so as not to leave shoe prints and to not get evidence on their shoes that would be extremely difficult to remove. NOW, here's the kicker...they also launched their attack on Meredith while both barefooted. They prepared, before the attack, by taking their shoes off. This was done for exactly the same reasons they took their shoes off for the cleaning/staging hours after the murder. Meredith's death was planned before the attack even began and the only reason for them to take off their shoes was to avoid the copious amount of blood they knew was going to end up on the floor. Note: And again, Rudy was excluded from this. He was shod. They were quite happy for him to keep his shoes on.


Hi, Michael - Great to see you still in the fight!

Now that post and its follow-ups are a LOT to think about!

That's more in the vein of the kind of analysis I was hoping to see from the FBI "profilers" (JD and JC), which, sadly, now appear to be nothing more than fame whores and/or guns for hire.

Regardless of whether they were for or against the prosecution's case, I was hoping to see them address the psychological questions raised by the behavior of the defendants (lies to police, short stories featuring violence against women - including one penned during the trial(!), express admiration for a killer, a fondness for the images in MPD Psycho, potential impact of street drugs of unknown composition and purity, "never" feeling embarrassed, etc., etc.) in a manner that addressed all of the known facts in a panoptic, intellectually honest and dispassionate fashion.

I wasn't disappointed by their conclusions, I was disappointed by the way they reached them: uncritically swallowing and then simply regurgitating the same old Marriott-crafted BS we've been deluged with since Day 3.

I'm still unsure about all of it, but I will say this: if you're on the right track (and you may very well be), the defendants are so depraved that they're bound to wind up in trouble again (à la van der Sloot, for example) in the unlikely event that they manage to elude incarceration.

The 'scissors incident' in high school would, if true, seem to comport with the notion that there may be a psychological propensity at play and that it's not going to go away.


Last edited by Jackie on Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:15 pm   Post subject: Re: BIBLE LESSON FOR REVEREND SCREECH   

Ergon wrote:
I see the reverend Bill Williams, cock a hoop over getting into the premiere and maybe asking loaded questions of the director, has the grace to say: Et tu, Billy?

Bill Williams wrote:
MichaelB wrote:
Naseer Ahmad ‏@manfromatlan · 1m
I saw The Face Of An Angel at @TIFF_NET today. Disappointing on so many levels, will post review tomorrow. #CaraDelevingne was revelation!

If conman Naseer Ahmad doesn't like it...it's probably good.

The cheap bugger waited for the Monday showing.....

Some verses for the preacher, from the source:
Quote:
Matthew 5:22 ESV
But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire

Quote:
Ephesians 4:29
Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth...


"The cheap bugger waited for the Monday showing"... that's quite a thing to say... especially if you're a preacher from a shabby little church with a leaky roof and money problems.

If I were a member of that church and had plunked down my money on the collection plate, I'd expect to see it go toward repair of that roof and the church's work for the poor.

I would be outraged to find that the preacher used $1000 of it to jet off to a chi-chi film festival for opening night because he just couldn't wait for the general release with the rest of us sinners.

I guess he's switched from Screech to Cristal.

That would fit with his decision to spend the bulk of his time advocating for a pretty, white, 26 year old multimillionaire with her own personal army of lawyers and PR pros on 2 continents instead of those filthy poor people in the Philippines who are utterly devoid of red carpet glamor and such a bore!


Last edited by Jackie on Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:37 pm   Post subject: Re: BIBLE LESSON FOR REVEREND SCREECH   

Ergon wrote:
...

What is it about Amanda that drives the reverend to sin?


TBH, it seems to me he's more interested in expressing his fondness for Raffaele and Frank.

And he's not wearing a wedding ring in the photos I've seen.

What was going on with those 3 in Peter's "barn"? Were any women present when they started drinking screech that night?
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 8:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

jape wrote:
Michael wrote:
Hmmm...I wonder what the delay on the release of the Nencini Report translation is?


Given the large gaps between the various stages of the court proceedings there is the matter of maintaining interest and that's no doubt why publication of the translation has been held back. After all we still don't have a court date for the latest appeal which is likely to be in January now. Also we have the Pistorius verdict tomorrow and .org posters have had a vigorous thread on this which is likely to spill over to the main forum following the verdict, so I wouldn't expect the translation to become available for a while yet. Yup, it is frustrating because I'm sure it was finished a while ago.



Hi Jape. I know getting a Report translation isn't like ordering Pizza...but still. Those in charge of the translation shouldn't be declaring its publication to be imminent when it isn't. It's been rather badly handled by the heralds this time around.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 8:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Jackie wrote:
Hi, Michael - Great to see you still in the fight!

Now that post and its follow-ups are a LOT to think about!

That's more in the vein of the kind of analysis I was hoping to see from the FBI "profilers" (JD and JC), which, sadly, now appear to be nothing more than fame whores and/or guns for hire.

Regardless of whether they were for or against the prosecution's case, I was hoping to see them address the psychological questions raised by the behavior of the defendants (lies to police, short stories featuring violence against women - including one penned during the trial(!), express admiration for a killer, a fondness for the images in MPD Psycho, potential impact of street drugs of unknown composition and purity, "never" feeling embarrassed, etc., etc.) in a manner that addressed all of the known facts in a panoptic, intellectually honest and dispassionate fashion.

I wasn't disappointed by their conclusions, I was disappointed by the way they reached them: uncritically swallowing and then simply regurgitating the same old Marriott-crafted BS we've been deluged with since Day 3.

I'm still unsure about all of it, but I will say this: if you're on the right track (and you may very well be), the defendants are so depraved that they're bound to wind up in trouble again (à la van der Sloot, for example) in the unlikely event that they manage to elude incarceration.

The 'scissors incident' in high school would, if true, seem to comport with the notion that there may be a psychological propensity at play and that it's not going to go away.



Thanks, Jackie. I don't normally delve into the psychological aspects of the case, but I felt the evidence offered certain clues in this case that tells us something important about the dynamic of the crime.

Like you, I see all the so-called experts arriving "on the case" as a missed opportunity to take a truly independent look at the evidence and attempt to put some important clues together.

In any case, whether anyone agrees with my reasoning or not, the fact that Knox and Sollecito were unshod during the murder itself (and were also so during the clean-up) while Rudy was wearing shoes and that the pair had knives from the beginning while Rudy did not, suggests that from the very beginning Rudy was excluded from "something", some dynamic, which then begs the question "what" was the nature of the dynamic that he was being excluded from? I offered a deductive answer to that question, others may be able to offer better.

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"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 8:56 pm   Post subject: Re: BIBLE LESSON FOR REVEREND SCREECH   

Jackie wrote:
Ergon wrote:
I see the reverend Bill Williams, cock a hoop over getting into the premiere and maybe asking loaded questions of the director, has the grace to say: Et tu, Billy?

Bill Williams wrote:
MichaelB wrote:
Naseer Ahmad ‏@manfromatlan · 1m
I saw The Face Of An Angel at @TIFF_NET today. Disappointing on so many levels, will post review tomorrow. #CaraDelevingne was revelation!

If conman Naseer Ahmad doesn't like it...it's probably good.

The cheap bugger waited for the Monday showing.....

Some verses for the preacher, from the source:
Quote:
Matthew 5:22 ESV
But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire

Quote:
Ephesians 4:29
Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth...


"The cheap bugger waited for the Monday showing"... that's quite a thing to say... especially if you're a preacher from a shabby little church with a leaky roof and money problems.

If I were a member of that church and had plunked down my money on the collection plate, I'd expect to see it go toward repair of that roof and the church's work for the poor.

I would be outraged to find that the preacher used $1000 of it to jet off to a chi-chi film festival for opening night because he just couldn't wait for the general release with the rest of us sinners.

I guess he's switched from Screech to Cristal.

That would fit with his decision to spend the bulk of his time advocating for a pretty, white, 26 year old multimillionaire with her own personal army of lawyers and PR pros on 2 continents instead of those filthy poor people in the Philippines who are utterly devoid of red carpet glamor and such bore!



What I'd be interested to know, is how many of Knox's supporters actually originate from his church? The very thought of it raises the idea of "cult" in the mind.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:59 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Whenever the Nencini Motivations Report translation comes out will be great. My guess? Around the time Cassazione announces its upcoming court hearing dates :)
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:14 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
Whenever the Nencini Motivations Report translation comes out will be great. My guess? Around the time Cassazione announces its upcoming court hearing dates :)


It won't make a difference to people like Rev. Screech. He likes to pretend his position is based on "facts" rather than on faith but you can see it's not true:

Every time one of his "facts" implodes, his belief in innocence remains unchanged.

This is faith, not science, logic, reason or common sense.

Massei does NOT make a "finding of fact" re "psychopathology"; Nencini does NOT "write" at "page 243" that "y-haplotypes come from women", there is more than an allosomal DNA match to the clasp trace - there is a 16 loci AUTOSOMAL match (Billy admits he does not know what this means, or even what a gene locus is!), MK's DNA trace could NOT have been a "rye grain" (Billy could not pass a high school biology test!), etc., etc.. An 'argument' built on lies, omissions, errors and an abject ignorance of science is no argument at all.

Then again, Billy was a preacher. Occupational hazard, I suppose: No need to let facts get in the way of a good sermon about 'evil' foreigners.


Last edited by Jackie on Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:42 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

As long as "Bill Williams" used church funds to fix the leaky roof and flew to Toronto on his own dime, that's cool, Jackie. At least he doesn't use his pulpit to threaten legal action against me like he used to.

BTW, I paid for my 'cheap' ticket :)
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:57 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
As long as "Bill Williams" used church funds to fix the leaky roof and flew to Toronto on his own dime, that's cool, Jackie. At least he doesn't use his pulpit to threaten legal action against me like he used to.

BTW, I paid for my 'cheap' ticket :)


I'm no expert on church finances. Where does the money for a minister's salary come from, if not the 'collection plate'/ donations?
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 6:25 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I dunno, Jackie. He hasn't been forthcoming of how he got to Toronto, allowing someone called @Annella from New Zealand to confirm that yes he did attend the premiere.

Good for him, I hope he can read up and correct his errors about the DNA evidence in this case. It is Raffaele Sollecito's DNA on the bra clasp. How did it get there? Transmigration? Maybe that's how he got to Toronto :)
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 6:34 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Thanks to .org I have just learned that Raffaele Sollecito has been banned from the platform GoFundMe.

Finally, some common sense.

The Washington Post: GoFundMe, the site that has raised money for convicted murderers will draw the line at abortion and sorcery

Quote:
In the uproar that followed, GoFundMe didn’t just take down Bailey’s page. On Tuesday, the platform also categorically banned fundraisers on a wide range of arbitrary moral issues, including abortion, gambling, “sorcery” and any material “relating to the adult industry” in any capacity. Since this post was first published, GoFundMe also quietly deleted its long-running fundraiser for Raffaele Sollecito, who was convicted, with Amanda Knox, of the high-profile murder of British student Meredith Kercher in 2007. The fundraiser had been active since June 2013 and raised over $44,000.


Important Updated to GoFundMe guidlines
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 6:35 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Pistorius gets sentenced today.

To me he seems like a real hot head, but being an amputee, and having all of those frustrations about it as many will obviously and naturally have, is no excuse, his court appearances and all of his theatre pieces; getting so emotional and throwing up making himself look like the poor old thing - victim of a misunderstanding, however, it is not hard to see he is not a nice person, that beahaviour seemed to me to be part of his particular type of lunacy.

South African or Afrikaans, isn't the most expressive language, you can hear it when a guy announces:

1) I have a new sweater
2) My granny died

in exactly the same monotonic voice.

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Ignorance of the law is no excuse


Last edited by zorba on Thu Sep 11, 2014 6:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 6:50 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Nell wrote:
Thanks to .org I have just learned that Raffaele Sollecito has been banned from the platform GoFundMe.

Finally, some common sense.




Very good indeed and I wonder why it took so long; a cold-blooded twice-convicted murderer, destroying the very underpinning upon which the site must be founded. I never stayed around long enough to check anything out as it was already enough seeing what the vile twat was up to.

So will he report to dad that he lost his job?

So spineless, collecting money off people, I wonder, if they could only have been shown a film of him committing murder, and slitting Meredith's throat open, how they'd have felt, part of the answer to this is that Knox's lot couldn't care any less than they already do.


Anyhow, as far as I can see, the Italian trial system, as it presently stands, takes far too long. I think it would be better to change it; no criminals allowed to get out, either you are guilty or you are not, and if guilty, you go in and you have then to have a real good basis upon which to ground an appeal, the Italian system is far too hard on the victims' families. What year is it? Oh yeah, getting on for 2015, if this had concerned others, perhaps older persons, they might have died within such a long time frame.
Meredith's parents are elderly and not in good health, they could have died FROM this stress and the wait and they may, after finality, though being intelligent people they will want to live knowing Meredith would have wanted that.

I doubt either of these two will commit suicide, they are too selfish for that, Sollecito is going to have a wonderful career as head of the department of computer bag sewing in his prison.
Knox may accuse everyone she meets of molesting her.

Was she, or is she and or was she obsessed with sex, and the power it gave her, that power after all is a much-used one by all kinds of persons?

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:04 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Pistorius arriving in court now.


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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:11 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Considering Sollecito IS a convicted murderer, as is Knox, I'd sure like to see news on, for instance, Sollecito, his whereabouts and how the police monitor his movements... yes if he does run he'll have a hard time but I believe a person like that should not be able to run, he ought to be TAGGED for f's sake, so what if it concerns a serial killer, and you cannot know but having already committed murder one might deduce that a next murder could be possible, what does this mean for society, someone like that gets to go around entirely untagged.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:16 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

On Kington

His dad a well-known or even famous journalist, however, I have never come across a decent article by son, if you happen to know nothing about the case his article would be impossible to follow, he talks about hacks but he is one, because he says stuff that just further confuses things, and which can often lead to vague assumptions. He is also yet another one enjoying Italy while slagging it off.

He may well be Peter Popham's best mate.

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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 8:25 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

zorba wrote:
Pistorius arriving in court now.


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Judge Masipa has been quoted on Twitter as saying that Reeva Steenkamp could not have screamed after the first shot. This indicates to me that she accepts Oscar Pistorius version. If Reeva screamed after first being shot, Pistorius could not claim to have "accidentally" shot her. This is a crucial point for him.

I remember there was some dispute over the order in which Reeva Steenkamp was hit by the bullets and from what I remember she was most likely shot in the hip first, not the head.

Sadly, I believe Oscar Pistorius will not be convicted of murder.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 8:28 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Yes, all witnesses were wrong except 'poor' Oscar. This judge is not giving me a good feeling. I better read the result in the papers tomorrow (or however long it is going to take).
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 8:59 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

max wrote:
Yes, all witnesses were wrong except 'poor' Oscar. This judge is not giving me a good feeling. I better read the result in the papers tomorrow (or however long it is going to take).


At the beginning I had a good feeling, but not anymore. This will be a very sad day for the Steenkamp family. A slap in the face. He killed her on purpose and he will get away with it.

I am not sure if she will convict him of anything, but premeditated murder is off the table in my opinion after reading her quotes.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:09 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Nell wrote:
Thanks to .org I have just learned that Raffaele Sollecito has been banned from the platform GoFundMe.

Finally, some common sense.

The Washington Post: GoFundMe, the site that has raised money for convicted murderers will draw the line at abortion and sorcery

Quote:
In the uproar that followed, GoFundMe didn’t just take down Bailey’s page. On Tuesday, the platform also categorically banned fundraisers on a wide range of arbitrary moral issues, including abortion, gambling, “sorcery” and any material “relating to the adult industry” in any capacity. Since this post was first published, GoFundMe also quietly deleted its long-running fundraiser for Raffaele Sollecito, who was convicted, with Amanda Knox, of the high-profile murder of British student Meredith Kercher in 2007. The fundraiser had been active since June 2013 and raised over $44,000.


Important Updated to GoFundMe guidlines



Thanks, Nell, that's great news. A pity they couldn't have done that BEFORE he creamed over $40,000. I wonder if Sollecito was the case that that made them change their policy?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:10 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Nell wrote:
max wrote:
Yes, all witnesses were wrong except 'poor' Oscar. This judge is not giving me a good feeling. I better read the result in the papers tomorrow (or however long it is going to take).


At the beginning I had a good feeling, but not anymore. This will be a very sad day for the Steenkamp family. A slap in the face. He killed her on purpose and he will get away with it.

I am not sure if she will convict him of anything, but premeditated murder is off the table in my opinion after reading her quotes.



Sadly, it looks like we're about to be served up whitewash on toast.

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Offline max


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:49 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Not guilty for intentional murder. Maybe culpable homicide. Judge rejects the witnesses that heard the poor girl screaming, and does not think shooting 4 times through a door means he meant to kill...whatever...
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Judge changed her mind during the break and now says any reasonable person could have foreseen that someone could be hurt or killed by shooting 4 times through a door. That is not what she said earlier. Hard to follow. To be continued tomorrow.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:58 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

max wrote:
Judge changed her mind during the break and now says any reasonable person could have foreseen that someone could be hurt or killed by shooting 4 times through a door. That is not what she said earlier. Hard to follow. To be continued tomorrow.



Which kind of makes it er..."murder" doesn't it?

If you foresee that it will and then do it anyway, that's intent.

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Offline max


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Yes, but not the intentional murder of his girlfriend. Culpable homicide is still on the table, and seems more likely now since the judge called him negligent at least.
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/09/11/world ... index.html
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

max wrote:
Yes, but not the intentional murder of his girlfriend. Culpable homicide is still on the table, and seems more likely now since the judge called him negligent at least.
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/09/11/world ... index.html



Does it actually matter WHO he was intending to murder? The fact he was intending to murder "someone" behind that door and that someone indeed ended up dead, makes it murder, surely?

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Offline max


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael wrote:
max wrote:
Yes, but not the intentional murder of his girlfriend. Culpable homicide is still on the table, and seems more likely now since the judge called him negligent at least.
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/09/11/world ... index.html

Does it actually matter WHO he was intending to murder? The fact he was intending to murder "someone" behind that door and that someone indeed ended up dead, makes it murder, surely?

His story is that he thought there was a bad intruder who wanted to harm him. So he shot in self defense. Lets hope there will be some justice tomorrow.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Yes, but his life wasn't in peril. That removes self-defense and makes it murder.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

More info about the Witterbottom movie:

Short interview with Kate Beckinsale -

September 10, 2014
WATCH: ‘The Face of an Angel’s Kate Beckinsale on the Amanda Knox Film at TIFF (VIDEO)

Kate Beckinsale maintains she’s conflicted when it comes to knowing quite how high-profile murder cases should be covered.
...
“Obviously the level of salacious interest is kind of horrifying however not reporting it, not really digging around in it is irresponsible as well and people do have the right to a public opinion of something like this,” says the actress.
...
The film will be screened at the London Film Festival on October 18. It’s yet to have a U.S. release date.


BBC America

Face of an angel, but has Cara Delevingne the talent to act?

THE INDEPENDENT

The movie Amanda Knox inspired (VIDEO)

BBC CULTURE

FACE OF AN ANGEL Review / TIFF 2014
By Phil Brown

COLLIDER
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

An Italian review of Winterbottom's film:

11 September 2014
Toronto, The Face of Angel, Winterbottom's film about the murder of Meredith Kercher, disappoints
By Valentina Torlaschi

Google translation:

No more Perugia, but Siena. And the names are not logically the same. No Amanda Knox, Raffaele Sollecito and Rudy Guede, but the characters are the ones, as those are the details of the tragic murder of Meredith Kercher in 2007. The title is The Face of an Angel, as well as the book that the correspondent of The Daily Best [sic] Barbara [sic] Latza Nadeau wrote the whole affair, and that the British director Michael Winterbottom decided to draw inspiration from. There is more to the story of a film director, played by Daniel Brühl, who decides to make a film about that case in the news. It is through him that we follow the story again, some steps of the trial process and the whole media circus that surrounds it. To the thrill of finding out who did what, how, and why, is added the melancholy of the filmmaker, newly divorced, alternating between chats on Skype with his ​​daughter and snorting cocaine. It is pretty darn sad. What an ugly world we live in, where the truth is and why all these people trying to make money through the visibility of a story so chilling?

If these sentences seem a bit absurd, it is because of the same level is the screenplay written by Paul Viragh, who throws into a cauldron many issues without being able to deal with not one as he should. He is certainly not helped in this regard by Michael Winterbottom who is not satisfied with his recent failures (only in the past six years we have his films of the "caliber" of Genoa, The Killer Inside Me and Trishna), fails to sign the umpteenth confusing film when everything seems fake and far, from a character - a shady rent-houses aspiring writer played by Valerio Mastandrea [= Frank Sfarzo] - that makes the story at times zany. Not only those who already know the story of the murder will not find any information or interesting point of view, but those who do not know will be faced with a botched reconstruction.

In statements to the Press at the presentation, Winterbottom said: "I wanted to understand why cases like this capture the imagination of the public, at a level such that the space to be filled in the newspapers and on television increases dramatically and reporters end up focusing on a series of insignificant details, such as hairstyle or clothes of the suspects." The goal is missed more than ever. Not only does it not help him along the same lines but also [doesn't] move forward the interpretations of the rich cast: Daniel Brühl, Kate Beckinsale, Cara Delevingne and, unfortunately, our Mastandrea.


SCREEN WEEK

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Offline johnnyyen


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Raffaele Sollecito Banned From GoFundMe Website

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the- ... d-sorcery/

Perhaps now Knox will be banned from Paypal? Maybe. If enough people write to Paypal and complain. I think that we should all do that right now. Sign up to Paypal and report Amanda Knox here:

https://www.paypal.COM/us/ewf/f=pps_prohib

The official name of her Paypal account is the "Amanda Legal Defense Trust".

If you don't want to sign up for paypal you can also call them to report Knox's violation of their terms of service at 1-888-221-1161 or at 1-402-935-2050 (if calling from outside the U.S.). Thank you.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I think it was Amanda Knox that filed a complaint with GoFundMe about Raffaele Sollecito, just saying :)
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:27 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Oscar Pistorius has been found guilty of culpable homicide of Reeva Steenkamp and firing a shot in a restaurant.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:01 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Yep I shit on Winterbottom and his motives for making a film that had to lend from Meredith's fate yet he presents it as an own creation.


And to actually put copies of people like Sfarzo in it with Nadeau too announcing she figures in the film, and she is obviously so proud of it well sorry, but screw her too, and CD, come on, the coke sniffer, in a role too, it's so crap, I'm not charmed with the film world, so many fakes in it, screw Hollywood while we are at it too.

End of rant

Oh forgot, fcuk that Pistorius, slimy git, the dirty murderer too, culpable homicide my arse.

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Offline max


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:13 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Disappointing although I thought for a moment he wouldn't be found guilty of anything. So the judge thinks he didn't mean to kill anyone even though any reasonable person could have foreseen this when shooting 4 times through a door. Pistorius is not a reasonable person I guess. I wonder what the sentencing will be, but I guess that is for later.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:21 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Even Pistorius' defence admitted he intended to kill, just that he didn't intend to kill Reeva and that it was self-defence against what he thought was an intruder. The judge acquitted him of murder by bestowing a defence upon him that his own defence had never claimed. Travesty.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 5:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

For our movie-goers:

I know, Winterbottom's movie is completely irrelevant to an actual murder case, but more reviews are coming in, so here is the most recent one ('three stars'), with a short video-clip at the end, for those who might be interested (or watch it on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFVbgnbsQYE)

Toronto 2014: 'The Face of an Angel' review (★★★☆☆)

CINE VUE
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:38 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Just posted - Nina Burleigh's latest blah-blah in the New York Observer. She's probably bitter and miserable because Winterbottom's movie is based on BLN's book, not hers ;)

Like So Many American Black Men, Amanda Knox’s Crime Was Being an Outsider :?:

Nine books have been written about the case. Two of them, mine and Candace Dempsey’s, argue that the two convicted students didn’t do it, and that a third defendant probably acted alone. For expressing these views, we are often accused of having taken money from what they call a “massive American PR machine,” which in actuality is a lone Seattle-based corporate publicist hired by Ms. Knox’s father to field the volume of press calls regarding their daughter’s globally famous predicament.
...
One book actually has made some Hollywood-grade money on this case. British director Michael Winterbottom’s movie opening this week at Toronto is based on a book originally titled Angel Face: The True Story of Student Killer Amanda Knox. As the title makes clear, it hews neatly to the prosecutor’s narrative of a psycho American beauty.


NEW YORK OBSERVER
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Thanks, Guermantes. Funny, Barbie Nadeau's title does not carry the word "American", but Burleigh just HAS to put that in her description of it. It emphasises the fact that it is the likes of Burleigh that is obsessed with Knox being American, not the Italian courts, prosecution or police. And it is she that is anti-Italian, as opposed to the Italians being ant-American. It never ceases to amaze me the degree of projection that Knox's supporters bring to this case.

And of course, she also throws in a lie. Marriott was not hired simply to answer phones from the press, he was hired to reforge Knox's image, CONTROL the media and create a smear campaign against the Italians and Mignini in particular. Further, nobody ever claimed Burleigh and Dempsey were on the payroll of the PR machine, only that they sought to jump on the innocence bandwagon for profit and fame to the detriment of the truth, so a straw man also from her. Such a short amount of text, yet so much CRAP.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael wrote:
...It emphasises the fact that it is the likes of Burleigh that is obsessed with Knox being American, not the Italian courts, prosecution or police. And it is she that is anti-Italian, as opposed to the Italians being ant-American.


I agree, Michael. Burleigh seems to be extremely sensitive to criticism of 'American values' and her beloved country, while at the same time having no qualms about pouring scorn on Italy and Italians.

I also find it a bit ironic that Burleigh is now comparing Knox to 'black men', whereas it is well-known that Knox accused an innocent black man and shifted the blame for the murder onto another black man. :? Well, I wonder, does NB think she is being 'clever' by making this comparison, and, in the same breath, branding Rudy Guede a sole murderer? (Clever, ooh, ooh...) Isn't there a bit of a contradiction?
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I hope Andrew Gumbel like the tweet about him:

https://twitter.com/harryrag/status/510546940824936448

Please retweet. Thanks.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 10:15 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

guermantes wrote:
Michael wrote:
...It emphasises the fact that it is the likes of Burleigh that is obsessed with Knox being American, not the Italian courts, prosecution or police. And it is she that is anti-Italian, as opposed to the Italians being ant-American.


I agree, Michael. Burleigh seems to be extremely sensitive to criticism of 'American values' and her beloved country, while at the same time having no qualms about pouring scorn on Italy and Italians.

I also find it a bit ironic that Burleigh is now comparing Knox to 'black men', whereas it is well-known that Knox accused an innocent black man and shifted the blame for the murder onto another black man. :? Well, I wonder, does she think she is being 'clever' by making this comparison, and, in the same breath, branding Rudy Guede a sole murderer? (Clever, ooh, ooh...) Isn't there a bit of a contradiction?


Utterly cynical and hypocritical, that's what I call it, to try and use the black card in Knox's defence. These people have no shame at all.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 10:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Re: Oscar Pistorius, the judge clung to a rigid standard of reasonable doubt, and clearly was fishing for ways to exculpate Oscar Pistorius. The witnesses who heard a man and woman screaming were disregarded, she entertained post traumatic stress as an excuse, he did not intend to kill anyone.

It is fact that South Africa has high levels of crime and white people might feel quite fearful of home invasions there. The corollary statement that follows might then be that if there was an actual black intruder hiding in the locked toilet then he would be acquitted because it would then be reasonable to accept he was in fear for his life? Then it appears the only reason he has been sentenced at all is because he killed a white woman.

I'll respect the judge's decision for now. But I'll wait to see what the sentence will be before I comment further.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 10:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
It is fact that South Africa has high levels of crime and white people might feel quite fearful of home invasions there. The corollary statement that follows might then be that if there was an actual black intruder hiding in the locked toilet then he would be acquitted because it would then be reasonable to accept he was in fear for his life? Then it appears the only reason he has been sentenced at all is because he killed a white woman.



Which is ironic, since the judge is black.

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Offline johnnyyen


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 12:27 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Don't forget to sign up to Paypal and make DAILY complaints about Amanda Knox's terms of use violations here:

https://www.paypal.com/us/ewf/f=pps_prohib

If you don't want to sign up for paypal you can also call them to report Knox's violation of their terms of use at 1-888-221-1161 or at 1-402-935-2050 (if calling from outside the U.S.). Thank you.

Sample complaint: Please ban the "Amanda Legal Defense Trust" from PayPal as it is supporting a convicted murderer named Amanda Marie Knox. This is against your terms of service. Thank you.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 1:11 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Is Knox still living free in Seattle?

What a shame.

I haven't kept up with the news. Has she been handed a final verdict yet?
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 1:12 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

johnnyyen wrote:
Don't forget to sign up to Paypal and make DAILY complaints about Amanda Knox's terms of use violations here:

https://www.paypal.com/us/ewf/f=pps_prohib

If you don't want to sign up for paypal you can also call them to report Knox's violation of their terms of use at 1-888-221-1161 or at 1-402-935-2050 (if calling from outside the U.S.). Thank you.

Sample complaint: Please ban the "Amanda Legal Defense Trust" from PayPal as it is supporting a convicted murderer named Amanda Marie Knox. This is against your terms of service. Thank you.


Seriously? The Knox is soliciting funds from hardworking people so she can continue to indulge herself at every whim even though she received millions for her ludicrous book?
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 1:26 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael wrote:
guermantes wrote:
Michael wrote:
...It emphasises the fact that it is the likes of Burleigh that is obsessed with Knox being American, not the Italian courts, prosecution or police. And it is she that is anti-Italian, as opposed to the Italians being ant-American.


I agree, Michael. Burleigh seems to be extremely sensitive to criticism of 'American values' and her beloved country, while at the same time having no qualms about pouring scorn on Italy and Italians.

I also find it a bit ironic that Burleigh is now comparing Knox to 'black men', whereas it is well-known that Knox accused an innocent black man and shifted the blame for the murder onto another black man. :? Well, I wonder, does she think she is being 'clever' by making this comparison, and, in the same breath, branding Rudy Guede a sole murderer? (Clever, ooh, ooh...) Isn't there a bit of a contradiction?


Utterly cynical and hypocritical, that's what I call it, to try and use the black card in Knox's defence. These people have no shame at all.


If Knox is a Blackman, why were the networks pushing interviews with the blond bimbo? Dye job ... ? Blond bimbos are yesterday's news. Today it's all about Blackmen that fall into the path of a bullet ... Knox is too self-indulgent to get it right - ever ... we're still waiting to see whether she dodged the bullet of a cocaine head that led to murder.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 1:57 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

guermantes wrote:
Just posted - Nina Burleigh's latest blah-blah in the New York Observer. She's probably bitter and miserable because Winterbottom's movie is based on BLN's book, not hers ;)

Like So Many American Black Men, Amanda Knox’s Crime Was Being an Outsider :?:

Nine books have been written about the case. Two of them, mine and Candace Dempsey’s, argue that the two convicted students didn’t do it, and that a third defendant probably acted alone. For expressing these views, we are often accused of having taken money from what they call a “massive American PR machine,” which in actuality is a lone Seattle-based corporate publicist hired by Ms. Knox’s father to field the volume of press calls regarding their daughter’s globally famous predicament.
...
One book actually has made some Hollywood-grade money on this case. British director Michael Winterbottom’s movie opening this week at Toronto is based on a book originally titled Angel Face: The True Story of Student Killer Amanda Knox. As the title makes clear, it hews neatly to the prosecutor’s narrative of a psycho American beauty.


NEW YORK OBSERVER


Isn't Ms Nina Burleigh the woman that pretended to understand the case, and who then wrote a book proclaiming that Knox was a pretty non-Blackman that was targeted because she was born in the United States, projected sexuality that was not always well received (hoopla), and there was documentation that she excited Italians on the train (until she found herself in the train bathroom) ... and in association with all those US CSI experts that could not be recognized in an European Union Italian court.





She doesn't quite have her hands clasped here, but she's thinking about it.



Her expression shortly after her release



Couldn't help myself ... came across this looking for the photo where Knox has her hands in a praying action and the investigators look at her incredulously.



The Fraulein



... and then



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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 2:09 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

It's not exactly a deer in the headlights, but you get the idea

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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 2:26 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Parody of US CSI theories unrecognized by the EU.
Knox is not the victim.



Cartwheels et al, et cetera



We can't forget justics



Is this the knife stain?

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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 2:42 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I know that this is a bit early for Christmas and late for Valentines, but I sure hope that the culprits responsible for Meredith's murder are forced to make an equal sacrifice. To sit in a room and pretend to be famous is good enough for me ... murderers that become delusional are of no concern to me. Knox is delusional. Should she be incarcerated, or was Meredith's murder a random even where the two murderers understood that they should never again associate, like the two teenage girls that murdered one's mother.

I am convinced that Meredith's family has read every word in every court document from back to front and still has no doubt about the verdict.



In a way, this is for Meredith ... I'm never good with words.


Last edited by Jester on Sat Sep 13, 2014 3:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 2:54 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Jester wrote:
Is Knox still living free in Seattle?

What a shame.

I haven't kept up with the news. Has she been handed a final verdict yet?

Yes and no. Nothing much happened lately. There were some CCTV images released by 'someone' of a girl walking into the parking garage at about 9pm the night of the murder who just so happened to look like Knox. This was then 'coincidentally' followed up by a press conference by RS saying that Knox was not with him that evening, and his lawyer stated that he never lied because the night only begins at 10 or 11. So they did spend the night, but not the evening. Some Sollecito family members have claimed the same on twitter, and there have been some twitter wars but I don't really know all the details on that. Some expect that a date for the final SC appeal will be set anytime soon.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 3:20 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

max wrote:
Jester wrote:
Is Knox still living free in Seattle?

What a shame.

I haven't kept up with the news. Has she been handed a final verdict yet?


Yes and no. Nothing much happened lately. There were some CCTV images released by 'someone' of a girl walking into the parking garage at about 9pm the night of the murder who just so happened to look like Knox. This was then 'coincidentally' followed up by a press conference by RS saying that Knox was not with him that evening, and his lawyer stated that he never lied because the night only begins at 10 or 11. So they did spend the night, but not the evening. Some Sollecito family members have claimed the same on twitter, and there have been some twitter wars but I don't really know all the details on that. Some expect that a date for the final SC appeal will be set anytime soon.


I know that Sollecito's team released the photos of a woman in the parkade. Those images coincide with the time that Knox would have been cutting through the parkade. Is it her? It looks like her, but that's in part because when Sollecito's team released the footage, they had an agenda.

When did Knox make phone calls from the plaza to work? Was it after the Popovich visit, or was it before? Wasn't it before ... she went to work, work was cancelled over the phone, she returned to Sollcito's flat (not her own cottage), they ate, Popovich stopped at the door, there was a water spill, they ate fish at 10PM or before 8:30 when Dr Sollecito checked in, and before Popovish, then they got more stoned, they left the movie playing, on the computer, they decided on cocaine (Sollecito: day of the dead; his mother), they turned off their phones, they found cocaine, some cocaine begs more cocaine ... so they borrowed Meredith's money, and all hell broke loose when Knox was at the cottage at about the time when Meredith came home. Guede planned to be at the cottage at that time, and the Armenian cocaine dealers down the street confirmed that Knox and Sollecito were pretending to be mushrooms in the middle of the road while throwing olive jars at passersby at about 10PM. Knox has the cocaine dealer's phone number on her speed dial before and after the murder. The heroin addict may be dead, but that doesn't mean he didn't see them on the night of the murder.

As for re-writing history via twitter, someone should inform the twidiots that memory serves better than technology. Lunatics can attempt to re-write history, but that does not erase the facts.


Last edited by Jester on Sat Sep 13, 2014 3:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 3:22 am   Post subject: NINA BURLEIGH REBUTTAL   

Comment on Burleigh's Observer article: Like So Many American Black Men, Amanda Knox’s Crime Was Being an Outsider

Quote:
Hi, Ms Burleigh, in trying to prove the trial of Amanda Knox is an example of where "powerless outsiders don’t fare well in any justice system" you ignore the fact that her co accused Raffaele Sollecito, the scion of a rich, well connected Italian family was treated the same, which defeats your premise, don't you think?

It is odd that you equate the treatment of black men in America with that of Knox, who after all didn't just confess to being at the scene of the crime, she falsely accused her innocent black boss of murdering her room mate Meredith Kercher. The investigators had every reason to suspect her from the beginning, because staged break ins are generally done by people within a residence to cover up their involvement in a crime, plus the defendants were caught lying several times and, at a crucial moment Raffaele Sollecito withdrew his alibi for her. There was no video or recording of her initial interview because she wasn't in custody at the time, and her subsequent statements were made voluntarily.

I don't wish to argue the case all over again, yet you make the same accusations of Rudy Guede being well known to the police that have been disproven many times, suffice to say he wasn't even a suspect until after Knox and Sollecito had been arrested, through a fingerprint match. Are you suggesting his arrest should have triggered the other two accused's release? In that case you're doing the same as what is said about American thinking, the presence of a convenient black suspect should exculpate white defendants? By then, there was sufficient evidence to place all three at the scene.

Are you suggesting that a massive PR campaign would have been sufficient to release her from custody "within two weeks"? I fail to see your reasoning in this. That it didn't happen means there was no PR campaign? Aside from that, you ignore it wasn't a lone corporate PR person then but the Seattle firm of Gogerty, Marriott (which is the Boeing company's agency) with a fair bit of contacts in Washington DC. You ignore also senator Maria Cantwell and judge Michael Heavey inserting themselves into the case on Amanda Knox's behalf and trying to influence a trial in a foreign country and fellow G8 ally Italy. It also is a straw man argument to say you've been accused of accepting money from a campaign. You certainly have benefited, with a published book and numerous appearances on television. As has Knox and Sollecito, with a $4million and $950,000 advance for their books, so please.

And so yes, Barbie Nadeau did get her book The Face Of An Angel made into a movie, but I would suggest you see the movie first, you are simply wrong when you write "it hews neatly to the prosecutor’s narrative of a psycho American beauty". I did see the movie in Toronto, and it does no such thing. In fact, it ends with the (now annulled) acquittal of Amanda Knox by Judge Hellmann, and the director figure, when asked by his daughter, Bea, so she 's innocent then", says "yes, she's innocent" as he, after facing his own personal demons, closes his computer and walks away from the case.

If he choses to say the truth isn't ascertainable, that is his right, as is yours to propose your own scenario. One that hews a little closer to the truth, one hopes.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 3:42 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

An outsider? Since when is a sex-object, which is how she was portrayed by her PR team from the time of her arrest until her release (see: Halloween photo), a black man? The blackman strikes me as racist against people of mixed race, and I don't see how Knox fits. Knox was the blond bimbo on US prime time TV for a day or two every couple of years, but she was never an outsider. She was always portrayed as a victim even though she was convicted of murder in Italy. She was photographed riding her bicycle in Seattle with a heaping of clothing in her satchel for the homeless people. TMZ tapped into Knox, but is she still on the payroll, or is she old news?
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 4:12 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Jester wrote:
max wrote:
Jester wrote:
Is Knox still living free in Seattle?

What a shame.

I haven't kept up with the news. Has she been handed a final verdict yet?


Yes and no. Nothing much happened lately. There were some CCTV images released by 'someone' of a girl walking into the parking garage at about 9pm the night of the murder who just so happened to look like Knox. This was then 'coincidentally' followed up by a press conference by RS saying that Knox was not with him that evening, and his lawyer stated that he never lied because the night only begins at 10 or 11. So they did spend the night, but not the evening. Some Sollecito family members have claimed the same on twitter, and there have been some twitter wars but I don't really know all the details on that. Some expect that a date for the final SC appeal will be set anytime soon.

I know that Sollecito's team released the photos of a woman in the parkade. Those images coincide with the time that Knox would have been cutting through the parkade. Is it her? It looks like her, but that's in part because when Sollecito's team released the footage, they had an agenda.

When did Knox make phone calls from the plaza to work? Was it after the Popovich visit, or was it before? Wasn't it before ... she went to work, work was cancelled over the phone, she returned to Sollcito's flat (not her own cottage), they ate, Popovich stopped at the door, there was a water spill, they ate fish at 10PM or before 8:30 when Dr Sollecito checked in, and before Popovish, then they got more stoned, they left the movie playing, on the computer, they decided on cocaine (Sollecito: day of the dead; his mother), they turned off their phones, they found cocaine, some cocaine begs more cocaine ... so they borrowed Meredith's money, and all hell broke loose when Knox was at the cottage at about the time when Meredith came home. Guede planned to be at the cottage at that time, and the Armenian cocaine dealers down the street confirmed that Knox and Sollecito were pretending to be mushrooms in the middle of the road while throwing olive jars at passersby at about 10PM. Knox has the cocaine dealer's phone number on her speed dial before and after the murder. The heroin addict may be dead, but that doesn't mean he didn't see them on the night of the murder.

As for re-writing history via twitter, someone should inform the twidiots that memory serves better than technology. Lunatics can attempt to re-write history, but that does not erase the facts.

Oh yah, I forgot the connection with the drug dealer which did a rerun in the media recently. I don't know if it was Knox in the CCTV images. Some say she is too short, others say too tall, too fat, too skinny, etc... I saw a few good points that it could be her such as her folded pants and the direction from which she came, but I am not 100% sure. The agenda of the Sollecito's might be more interesting. The press conference was bizarre and I still don't know what exactly the point was. Twitterings don't interest me much. So what really can we expect from the Sollecito agenda or was this it? Maybe there is a last final and desperate outcry 'she made me do it', but I doubt it. I expect once the SC confirms the verdict things will finally start moving quickly. Sollecito will be arrested, and Knox will be locked up in a Seattle jail while waiting the outcome of her extradition request. She will be send back to Italy because there is an extradition treaty with Italy. Suddenly the media will report that that was to be expected. Hopefully they will forget about Knox, because I doubt there is any news value in having a monthly update on how Knox is doing in jail. Finally there will be justice for Meredith Kercher.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 7:29 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I wonder whether this judge decided that if she gave Pistorius the full whack, her personal life would be too heavily affected from possible backlash, since Pistorius was (and still is, for many in South Africa,) one of their sporting heroes, and so her personal life would be too heavily affected by giving him what he really deserves, life without parole.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 8:44 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Reading what the family of Pistorius' ex said of him, seems to me like there's no way there was any accident, he terrified not just the ex, but the entire family.
They were relieved when he finally left them alone, sparing them from his sobbing, self-pitying pleas for help, and the other part, where he, apparently sought out sympathy from them (repeatedly and habitually), schizoid-like, demanded that the ex never call him, etc., and the mother also states that they became aware that he was an habitual liar, making up a tale of woe one moment, only to tell another story later on, one that completely contradicted his tale from earlier on, this is, as I know, a typical trait of the pathological liar; not even being able to see or realise how they contradict themselves,
yet, if you were to confront such a person,
they, and I know this,
will always be able to make up another story immediately, making it near-on impossible to ever confront them properly, since they are experts in denial in Egypt.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 1:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Just want to say that CNN really does have a lot of irritating reporters or whatever they like to call themselves, not just American, but the British ones seem the worst of all of them, this forever trying to sound like a big-shot, I mean every time that woman is on.... Becky Anderson, I have to switch her off, or mute, her voice gives me stomach acid.

Amanpour too, I think both model their approach on each other's.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 2:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I guess the police have to be present at a murder to be able to convict someone...

isn't that just GREAT

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 3:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

zorba wrote:
Just want to say that CNN really does have a lot of irritating reporters or whatever they like to call themselves, not just American, but the British ones seem the worst of all of them, this forever trying to sound like a big-shot, I mean every time that woman is on.... Becky Anderson, I have to switch her off, or mute, her voice gives me stomach acid.

Amanpour too, I think both model their approach on each other's.



CNN have made them speak like that. American Networks require their reporters to speak in that way, they fear that speaking normally is too boring for American listeners. You don't think any Brits would actually "choose" to speak like that do you?

It's sort of the American equivalent of how British radio DJ's used to speak in times gone by, nicely parodied by the likes of Harry Enfield and Paul Whitehouse:




Or perhaps you remember The Fast Show's character "Ed Winchester", where the Brits would make fun of American news anchors:


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THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 7:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

(( OT OT ))

An interesting take on the Oscar Pistorius trial by someone who knows their stuff:

Brenda Wardle discusses the Oscar Pistorius Trial


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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 7:59 pm   Post subject: NINA BURLEIGH OBSERVER ARTICLE   

My reply to Dr. David Anderson's foul attack on the Kerchers in Nina Burleigh's column in the New York Observer Abusive Old Coot

He's still at it. Whenever we see public abuse of the Kerchers, then yes, we need to respond.
Quote:
Dr. Anderson, you seem to be copy pasting this attack on the Kercher family all over the internet. Normal human decency requires you to respect the loss of their murdered child, Meredith, and not ascribe their motives in pursuing civil remedies as being motivated by greed.

To date, the only ones who've benefited financially (I exclude writers, journalists and film makers) from the crime are the accused Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, who've already made their assets judgment proof in anticipation of a finalization of their convictions for murder. It is unlikely the family will receive any proceeds from the two perps, and they have every right under law to pursue all remedies.

Would you have ascribed the Brown/Goldman civil suits against OJ Simpson as being motivated by greed? Amanda Knox and her partisan defenders ought to be ashamed for enabling this abusive line of attack.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 8:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Well said.

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 11:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Thanks, Michael. BTW, the Paypal buttons on all their sites work just fine, just click on 'Donate'.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 1:33 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael wrote:
(( OT OT ))

An interesting take on the Oscar Pistorius trial by someone who knows their stuff:

Brenda Wardle discusses the Oscar Pistorius Trial

Funny lady. It is too bad that the truth is not what the courts in SA are after. I feel that it is different in Italy. In the Pistorius case now most discussions are about the legal terms for intend to kill and murder. Thanks to this amazing judge the discussions are now about this 'intruder' and not so much about Reeva. But adding all the evidence the real story is rather clear. As the lady tells it, arguing heard, screaming by a woman heard, screaming and crying by a man and a woman mingled. Then there is this whole illogical story of how Pistorius supposedly got out of bed, got his gun, and while claiming paranoid fear he still went toward the 'intruder'. Never does he notice or even think about his sleeping gf next to him (even though he claims to have shot for her safety). Then he starts shooting and all shots hit the person behind the door showing Pistorius was aiming. And how does one aim at a person behind a door? Pistorius must have been aiming at the noise Reeva made just like the witnesses heard. They had a fight, Pistorius went into one of his rages, Reeva got away from him and locked herself in the toilet, still in rage he went after her and killed her. He might have been in rage but he is not stupid so I even suspect that he already had the excuse of killing an intruder in mind when he decided to kill his gf. This whole discussion about this 'intruder' is a legal discussion and has nothing to do with the truth and what really happened. JMO.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 2:15 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I agree, max. I also think Amanda Knox was in a white hot rage that night, and as far as I am concerned, the transportation of the knife is evidence of pre-meditated murder.

But going back to poor Reeva, yes, I believe the ear witnesses that heard her screaming. I like many others ask the obvious question: why would she lock herself in her own toilet, if not because she feared for her safety? A travesty of justice, cloaked in 'reasonable doubt' and 'not proven' mumbo jumbo.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 10:59 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

What was weird yesterday, was that the BBC just so happened to have some kind of special on sporting South Africa in which of course the temperamentful hair-trigger hot-head appeared and some praising him, it wasn't supposed to be about him alone, but I really wonder about the chosen timing


These descriptions seem as though they could have been written for him and Knox.


Excessive irritability or sensitiveness: an actor with too much temperament.

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Temperament (ˈtɛmpərəmənt; -prəmənt)
n
1. an individual's character, disposition, and tendencies as revealed in his reactions

2. excitability, moodiness, or anger, esp. when displayed openly: an actress with temperament.

3. (Psychology) the characteristic way an individual behaves, esp towards other people. See also character, personality

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 11:34 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael wrote:
zorba wrote:
Just want to say that CNN really does have a lot of irritating reporters or whatever they like to call themselves, not just American, but the British ones seem the worst of all of them, this forever trying to sound like a big-shot, I mean every time that woman is on.... Becky Anderson, I have to switch her off, or mute, her voice gives me stomach acid.

Amanpour too, I think both model their approach on each other's.



CNN have made them speak like that. American Networks require their reporters to speak in that way, they fear that speaking normally is too boring for American listeners. You don't think any Brits would actually "choose" to speak like that do you?

Yeah it's obvious that America needs a certain gloss, shiny teethed, superficiality all about it, but these people have minds of their own, I think they CHOOSE to speak that way, nobody held a gun to their heads, though it's all about the money, da la la la la and really doesn't matter anyway, or whatever that awful song said.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 11:37 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

By goofiness, I listened to the SA analyst

had been trying to wake up, now feel like I've been anaesthetised for an operation. Snore.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 4:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I have noticed that there is a very stark difference between the Meredith and Pistorius cases. Unlike in the Meredith case, with the Pistorius case the Anglo media appear to be expressing a genuine desire to really understand how the verdict came about and is not simply channeling PR. They clearly are capable of it. Amazing! Could this contrast be, because Pistorius is merely South African, while Knox is American? Surely not!

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:20 am   Post subject: THE KNOX TONGUE AFFAIR II   

Amanda Knox supporter @Annella asked me very nicely on Twitter to provide a picture of the Knox tongue with which I made my now famous, it seems, TCM diagnosis of Knox. I said sure, it was a while back, give me a day to find it. Instead of waiting, she located a different picture than what I used for my diagnosis and cc'd it to FBI profiler Jim Clemente as proof of my all round nuttiness, ahem :)

Here's the original: Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:56 pm
Quote:
Speaking of her mouth, with Chinese medicine her tongue tells us she definitely abuses alcohol and/or drugs. Kidney deficiency, swollen tongue, shiny, no coating, water retention around the tongue. It stays for a while until her body detoxifies, which may not be possible since she also appears to have digestive problems. This would be another indice of a learning disorder.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:24 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

These people carry grudges a very long time. I wrote about the astrology of the murder and Bruce Fischer popped me into his first book Injustice In Perugia, sigh.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:51 am   Post subject: Re: THE KNOX TONGUE AFFAIR   

Ergon wrote:
Amanda Knox supporter @Annella asked me very nicely on Twitter to provide a picture of the Knox tongue with which I made my now famous, it seems, TCM diagnosis of Knox. I said sure, it was a while back, give me a day to find it. Instead of waiting, she located a different picture than what I used for my diagnosis and cc'd it to FBI profiler Jim Clemente as proof of my all round nuttiness, ahem :)

Here's the original: Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:56 pm
Quote:
Speaking of her mouth, with Chinese medicine her tongue tells us she definitely abuses alcohol and/or drugs. Kidney deficiency, swollen tongue, shiny, no coating, water retention around the tongue. It stays for a while until her body detoxifies, which may not be possible since she also appears to have digestive problems. This would be another indice of a learning disorder.



I disagree with what you do Ergon.

You have pages online where you speak as if you are Jesus returned, this is a murder case, and introducing your hobbies into the equation is something I disagree with, why is it you think you have some right to introduce some kind of puritanical code of morals into this, so what if she drinks, drank and or whatever it is you have in your head (are you saying you are like some religious fanatic, as square as they, think it's safe to say you never smoked a joint in your life and speak in terms of evil drug takers and pushers, so fucking what if someone likes a nice glass wine or a joint? Big deal) get based on your so-called expertise (if expertise is what you are saying you have when announcing these things in relation to Chinese Medicine).

Let's face it, well I will anyway, you had your things going on, maybe you had visitors to some site(s) on your beliefs and hobbies, but maybe not so much, why use this murder case to promote your self?


Why don't you send the high court your reasoning based on astrology, tea leaf reading, crystal ball gazing and Chinese medicine, I'm sure you will be of great influence to them!


What is it you've been smoking?

You keep on seeming very proud of what YOU do, I mean you announce it enough.

Okay I'll be yers pal and go and get me a crystal ball too.


Back. I'm looking and I see a lot of parked cars, it could mean there's a traffic jam up ahead, and I will have to get away, I also see a granny with an umbrella bashing someone on the head, she obviously wasn't loved or nurtured as a child and now I see a line of police officers, wait, what are they doing, huh, they are all gazing into crystal balls, who knew?

Hands up against the wall and spread em, Officer Heinz number 57 shouted at the men, whipping out riot sticks and whacking them in the balls (not made of crystal) when they failed to move fast enough.


We have reason to believe, in fact we've seen you having your cake and eating it too, you are under arrest for drinking beer, eating cake and taking aspirin.

Arrestee: What?
Officer: Shut your mouth you low life scum
Arrestee: I'm a doctor
Officer: We'll see about that in our balls, hey Chinese employee, get over here, take a look at this guy
Chinese quack: Oh dear, based on your tongue and the moon at half past five I'd say you are guilty of something, your eyes are telling me you are an habitual masturbator
Arrestee: Damn, it's a fair cop, you got me on one of those
Officer: Let me consult my balls to see exactly which one, time 23 hours 45 minutes with the moon in Uranus, oh yes, there's a conflict here, I see a dark shadow, that must mean fizzled out planets, suns, which means you are guilty of whatever it is I accuse you of, you is bad, bad, bad... oops, wait, sorry, I was holding the ball in the wrong direction, with the black wall behind, you are free to go. Here's your guns back. Tat tar.
Arrestee: Thank you much officer and Chinese helper, I was about to reveal my darkest secrets, I killed a big rat and made ratatouille, fed the entire family in 1972.
Officer: No problem, you've passed the morality test, your tongue is just affected by a cold, you aren't a drug taking murderer after all.
Arrestee: Glad to hear that, I could have sworn I shot up the mall last week but must have been a nightmare.
Officer: Don't you worry at all about what you've done, if you knew how many are on death row because of my faulty ball readings, hundreds mate, you'd think nothing of your serial killing ways.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:38 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

There are some people that also believe there is a spiritual dimension to things, a dimension that is just as important as the physical one. I see no reason why ideas concerning that shouldn't be brought into the discussion also if some feel it may add something (it used to be so, on Haloscan and the TCWMB).

In any case, what Ergon is bringing in at the moment is an ancient form of medicine that a great many people find valid. If some people do not, that is also fine. That's the good thing about forums, people are free to scroll on by when it comes to ideas they feel uncomfortable with. But sometimes, just sometimes, some people may find their world view enriched and broadened.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:33 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael wrote:
There are some people that also believe there is a spiritual dimension to things, a dimension that is just as important as the physical one. I see no reason why ideas concerning that shouldn't be brought into the discussion also if some feel it may add something (it used to be so, on Haloscan and the TCWMB).

In any case, what Ergon is bringing in at the moment is an ancient form of medicine that a great many people find valid. If some people do not, that is also fine. That's the good thing about forums, people are free to scroll on by when it comes to ideas they feel uncomfortable with. But sometimes, just sometimes, some people may find their world view enriched and broadened.



I'm sure star gazing has absolutely nothing at all to do with spirituality.

I don't blame that lot over on those sites everyone writes about here all the time taking the piss out of Ergon for this, I think they are correct.

Looking at a person's tongue in a photo then making moral judgements to my mind is ridiculous.

I just can't stand people who say, oh your are a Leo, I see yes, so you are like this, that, bla bla bla.

And worse though, is to be talking about someone just like you are the Daily Mail or a strict representative of religion, because after all, the strictest forms of Islam and Christianity also talk as if they are representing the DEA from 609 years ago, oew drugs, oew alcohol, what use is it talking about Knox that way, making assumptions based on a photo.

I couldn't care less if she uses things it may have had something to do with her mentality when Meredith was murdered, but making judgements that way I think undermines those who want to stay down to earth and want to see the killers punished, at least, I am making it clear for me, on my behalf, that I think such assumptions are bullshit.

Yeah the moon was down and in Saturn and so that's why Knox smoked dope and killed Meredith.

Way too whoolly, bells and incense for me.

I'm off to buy some Tarot cards so I can work it all out.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:58 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Zorba wrote:
I'm sure star gazing has absolutely nothing at all to do with spirituality.


Actually, it does.

In any case, we're an online community and within all communities, there is a broad range of world views. I do not see why we should be any less liberal tolerating that online then we are in the real world. Diversity is wealth.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 12:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I agree with Zorba 100% on this. How would you be with pro-innocence people posting that Guede committed the murder alone because the others have nicely shaped skulls (I'm assuming here that none have), or that two of the three were victimised by the size of uranus on your birthday? I mean ancient forms of medicine are one thing (although if Ergon were a practitioner of traditional medicine I get the feeling he'd have mentioned it), but a "spiritual dimension" being brought to bear on the evidence in a murder case? Come on!

As for finding my world view enriched and broadened? I much prefer Zorba's take on things, where the occasional absurdities are intentional, and often grin-inducing, ways of making sane points about things. I often lol at Zorba's posts while agreeing with the things being pointed out in them. I sometimes cringe at Ergon's posts while thinking "what the hell would a casual observer think of the quality of reasoning displayed by someone so prominent in the pro-justice cause?" I can't be the only one surely.

No offence intended but some obviously caused regardless. I do respect those who wish fervently for something approaching some sort of justice for Meredith's family and friends, and I acknowledge that this site has provided a lot of knowledge and wisdom over the years. That's why I keep reading.
Peter.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 12:14 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Nobody, is posting these things to create facts or certainties about the crime or individuals concerned. They are offerings of potential insights only.

The FACT is, we are all individuals here, not one homogeneous mass. That means, some people may offer perspectives that others find challenging. I wouldn't seek to change that, for then we risk becoming the thought police.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 12:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

:)
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 12:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

If PMF could be said to have a motto, I think it would be "Make of it what you will".

What's that in Latin? :)

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

sh-)) Adversus solem ne loquitor?

Michael, It wasn't my intention to imply that I wish you to censor posts. Freedom of belief and expression are wonderful things. I just wanted to say I agree with what Zorba posted on the issue 100%, and have entertained similar thoughts for some time.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 5:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

September 11, 2014
The Face of an Angel: Michael Winterbottom on media and murder (audio, duration: 9'54")

Lawyers for Amanda Knox threatened legal action this week against producers of the new Michael Winterbottom movie, The Face of an Angel. Inspired by the notorious case, the fictional film explores our fascination with murder and the ways in which the media covers a salacious and grisly story. Michael Winterbottom joined Brent [Bambury] in-studio when he was in town for this year's Toronto International Film Festival, where The Face of an Angel premiered.


Listen @ CBC.CA
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 6:09 pm   Post subject: DR ANDERSON VS THE KERCHERS   

From the Nina Burleigh article in the New York Observer: Source
Quote:
David Anderson 22 hours ago
Naseer Ahmad and Graham Rhodes,

Unlike you I do not cut and paste comments all over the internet. I am however very concerned about the continuing role of the Kercher family in supporting the venemous attacks on Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, designed to have their lives further ruined.

The following are FACTs.....

Within five days of Meredith’s murder her journalist family had bought into the preposterous sex-game-gone-wrong theory of Giuliano Mignini. They were introduced to their lawyer Francesco Maresca by Mignini, and the former has worked hand in glove with the latter, and with all subsequent secondary prosecutors.

The Italian legal system is corrupted in many ways, one of which is that routinely the civil case proceeds within the criminal case, and supplements it. Journalist Mario Spezi is aware of only one murder case in which the attorney for the family has gone against the criminal prosecution. As Hellmann has said, the judges work hand in glove with the prosecutors, rather than being suoer partes. In this sense, the framing of Amanda Knox is no different from a high percentage of homicides in Italy, where guilt is decided first, and emotion towards the victim’s family exploited to obtain the decided verdict.

Massei awarded a sum of 1 million Euros each against Knox and Sollecito to the parents and 800,000 Euros each to the siblings of Meredith, plus legal expenses. I find the wording ambiguous as to whether they are each to pay this, but at the very least it amounts in total to 4.4 million Euros for five people. This is by any reckoning a strong supplementary motivation for relatives who were locked in from an early date into the prosecution story. It has been sustained by Nencini.

Through Francesco Maresca, their lawyer, the family have supported the prosecution in not having putative semen stains on the cushion on which Meredith’s body lay examined microscopically for sperm heads or tested for their DNA profile. This is extraordinarily negligent, considering semen and its DNA profile is a crucial pointer to a guilty man, and the prosecution claims Guede could not have acted alone. It is certainly not Amanda’s or Raffaele’s semen, and the boyfriend Giacomo Silenzi could easily be excluded as an innocent source if they checked his profile.

John Kercher junior has worked in the IT and communications core of the BBC for fifteen years, and is currently a Project Manager there. There is strong evidence linking him closely to the most notorious and persistent of the pro-guilt Internet bloggers, Harry Rag aka The Machine. The BBC Trust is aware of this and has chosen not to investigate, presumably believing that protection of an emotionally fixated employee would trump considerations of legality and justice towards two impeccable young people improbably and falsely accused of murder. A murder almost certainly the work of a single disturbed young recurrent burglar, Rudy Herman Guede, who we know had been adopted and then disowned by one of the wealthiest families in Perugia, the Caporalis.


Quote:
Naseer Ahmad · Top Commenter · Works at Around the world, really. 17 hours ago
You, David Anderson, have not once posted your so called proof of John Kercher Jr. being involved in the online campaign to ensure justice for Meredith Kercher, despite repeated calls to prove your assertions.. If you, or Steve Moore, or Doug Bremner ever had any, you'd have posted by now. Your attempts to complain to his employer is further proof of your vindictiveness; they found no grounds for your complaint, and you're left whining on line.


Over at IIP, they're complaining about the effectiveness of the social campaign for justice, with small consolation that 'comments on articles descend into insignificance in a short while'. Sorry, but as long as people like Anderson, Bremner, Nigel Scott and co write letters to the BBC attacking John Kercher (they also complained about Andrea Vogt's BBC 4 doc for 'bias') then yes, someone will speak up, and inform readers about the truth of this case.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 6:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Over on Twitter right now, remarkably, it seems that some journalists are only just catching on to the fact that a big PR machine is working for Knox. Go figure.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 6:51 pm   Post subject: Re: DR ANDERSON VS THE KERCHERS   

Ergon wrote:
...they also complained about Andrea Vogt's BBC 4 doc for 'bias'...


Just for Laughs: The nutty FOA's open letter to film director Michael Winterbottom

GROUND REPORT
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:41 pm   Post subject: Re: DR ANDERSON VS THE KERCHERS   

guermantes wrote:
Ergon wrote:
...they also complained about Andrea Vogt's BBC 4 doc for 'bias'...


Just for Laughs: The nutty FOA's open letter to film director Michael Winterbottom

GROUND REPORT



I only scanned through, too much same old same old. But there was a tone rather like a pitiful whine towards the end. Like a demented mosquito with its head stuck on the flypaper. The comments section is fun though. Oh dear, the threats of being sued, arrested and imprisoned come thick and fast. As do mentions of assassins, 'agents' and the like. But there are hardly any commentators any more. The ones that are, are more demented and desperate than ever but there are so few of them. Sign of the times. But then it is Ground Report.

I think they should brief Congress. Show the world that this ground roots, mass movement means business and has the ears of the most powerful government in the world. It doesn't matter if the audience consists of the janitor and an intern, it's the gesture that counts. I know Mr Fisher reads here to keep an eye on this nest of international agents and assassins. Bruce, I think you need to call in the FBI on this one. Somebody with sniper training to handle all those assassination attempts. Afterwards you can see if you can get a bulk deal for a psychiatrist specialising in James Bond assassination fantasies. I have to confess I took a peak at IIP and after seeing the list of wrongfully convicted that you 'support' I realise that FOA stands for Friends Of ANYBODY.

Anybody know how that Whitehouse whitewash petition is going? Must be at 10 mil plus by now, surely.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Nothing more nutty than complain about a movie they haven't seen. It'll be at the London Film Festival October 18 :)
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael wrote:
If PMF could be said to have a motto, I think it would be "Make of it what you will".

What's that in Latin? :)


Hugo will know!
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:58 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Google says Fac ab ea quidvis :)
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 3:00 am   Post subject: INTERNET STALKING CAMPAIGN - MICHELLE MOORE, DAVID ANDERSON   

I just got David Anderson to confirm why he thinks Harry Rag/The Machine is John Kercher, Jr. , and why he keeps bringing it up. Full exchange published below


In case you haven't been following the conversation with David Anderson on Nina Burleigh's The Observer article Source
Quote:
David Anderson

Yes, thanks indeed Nina. I remember having a pleasant lunch with you in Perugia early in the appeal; and I found your book full of fascinating insights not seen in the other books on the case.

I agree wholeheartedly with jay7rap that the BBC has behaved appallingly, but this is not surprising now we know that Meredith's oldest brother John Kercher junior has worked hidden in the Information Technology bowels of the BBC for over fifteen years, and is currently a Project Manager. Not only did he and the rest of the family buy in immediately into the Mignini fantasy witch groupie sex nonsense, but after the Massei verdict, and now reinstated by Nonsencini they have a massive financial interest in establisjing the guilt of Amanda and Raffaele. This to the tune of more than 2 million dollars each, awarded against these two! Add to this the overwhelming evidence, completely ignored when reported by me to the BBC Trust, that the very worst of the pro-guilt lying blogsters (Harry Rag/aka the Machine) is also an emotionally and financially interested BBC employee, and 'Aunt Sally's' biased behaviour all these years begins to make sense.

Quote:
Naseer Ahmad · Top Commenter · Works at Around the world, really.
Dr. Anderson, you seem to be copy pasting this attack on the Kercher family all over the internet. Normal human decency requires you to respect the loss of their murdered child, Meredith, and not ascribe their motives in pursuing civil remedies as being motivated by greed.

To date, the only ones who've benefited financially (I exclude writers, journalists and film makers) from the crime are the accused Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, who've already made their assets judgment proof in anticipation of a finalization of their convictions for murder. It is unlikely the family will receive any proceeds from the two perps, and they have every right under law to pursue all remedies.

Would you have ascribed the Brown/Goldman civil suits against OJ Simpson as nbeing motivated by greed? Amanda Knox and her partisan defenders ought to be ashamed for enabling this abusive line of attack.
· September 13 at 3:44pm

Quote:
David Anderson

Naseer Ahmad and Graham Rhodes,
Unlike you I do not cut and paste comments all over the internet. I am however very concerned about the continuing role of the Kercher family in supporting the venemous attacks on Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, designed to have their lives further ruined.

The following are FACTs.....

Within five days of Meredith’s murder her journalist family had bought into the preposterous sex-game-gone-wrong theory of Giuliano Mignini. They were introduced to their lawyer Francesco Maresca by Mignini, and the former has worked hand in glove with the latter, and with all subsequent secondary prosecutors.

The Italian legal system is corrupted in many ways, one of which is that routinely the civil case proceeds within the criminal case, and supplements it. Journalist Mario Spezi is aware of only one murd...er case in which the attorney for the family has gone against the criminal prosecution. As Hellmann has said, the judges work hand in glove with the prosecutors, rather than being suoer partes. In this sense, the framing of Amanda Knox is no different from a high percentage of homicides in Italy, where guilt is decided first, and emotion towards the victim’s family exploited to obtain the decided verdict.

Massei awarded a sum of 1 million Euros each against Knox and Sollecito to the parents and 800,000 Euros each to the siblings of Meredith, plus legal expenses. I find the wording ambiguous as to whether they are each to pay this, but at the very least it amounts in total to 4.4 million Euros for five people. This is by any reckoning a strong supplementary motivation for relatives who were locked in from an early date into the prosecution story. It has been sustained by Nencini.

Through Francesco Maresca, their lawyer, the family have supported the prosecution in not having putative semen stains on the cushion on which Meredith’s body lay examined microscopically for sperm heads or tested for their DNA profile. This is extraordinarily negligent, considering semen and its DNA profile is a crucial pointer to a guilty man, and the prosecution claims Guede could not have acted alone. It is certainly not Amanda’s or Raffaele’s semen, and the boyfriend Giacomo Silenzi could easily be excluded as an innocent source if they checked his profile.

John Kercher junior has worked in the IT and communications core of the BBC for fifteen years, and is currently a Project Manager there. There is strong evidence linking him closely to the most notorious and persistent of the pro-guilt Internet bloggers, Harry Rag aka The Machine. The BBC Trust is aware of this and has chosen not to investigate, presumably believing that protection of an emotionally fixated employee would trump considerations of legality and justice towards two impeccable young people improbably and falsely accused of murder. A murder almost certainly the work of a single disturbed young recurrent burglar, Rudy Herman Guede, who we know had been adopted and then disowned by one of the wealthiest families in Perugia, the Caporalis.
Yesterday at 3:30pm


Quote:
Naseer Ahmad · Top Commenter · Works at Around the world, really.

You, David Anderson, have not once posted your so called proof of John Kercher Jr. being involved in the online campaign to ensure justice for Meredith Kercher, despite repeated calls to prove your assertions.. If you, or Steve Moore, or Doug Bremner ever had any, you'd have posted by now. Your attempts to complain to his employer is further proof of your vindictiveness; they found no grounds for your complaint, and you're left whining on line.
· Yesterday at 8:40pm

Quote:
David Anderson

Naseer Ahmad Okay, Naseer, here are the elements of the evidence, which I asked the BBC Trust to investigate back in December. We know of course that Harry Rag and The Machine are the same, because he/she has always admitted it. He blogs on the ‘True Justice for Meredith Kercher’ (TJMK) website as ‘The Machine’, which is a very strange choice of second pseudonym, and unfortunate as TMJK could be read as a revealing anagram. Not evidence, I agree, but of relevance to this story (see below).

Ross Fitzpatrick, who organised the BBC Hard Talk interview by Stephen Sackur of Raffaele Sollecito last September was so convinced of the identity back of HR and JKJr that in December that he started to address Harry Rag as ‘John’ on Twitter. Michele Moore spotted this and communicated with Fitzpatrick and was told that yes, I believe they a...re one and the same, and also indicated that someone in the BBC was of the same opinion. Fitzpatrick confirmed the same to me in an email saying ‘my suspicion of the HR (Harry Rag) identity is just that, but one that I feel sure is correct.’

Please bear in mind that HR/TM at this point was extremely active in trying to interfere with the outcome of the Nonsencini re-trial of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito. I am concerned that innocent people should not be convicted, as I am sure you are in principle. I also know enough about psychology and the Italian Injustice system (under which I live) to realise how vulnerable close relatives of the victim of a horrific crime such as this are to high profile false accusations, such as we saw on November 6th 2007 when we had ‘Caso chiuso’. And since then everything would have added to such confirmation bias, culminating with massive financial awards made by Massei and now confirmed by Nonsencini.

So I felt obliged as a responsible citizen to inform the BBC in person of Fitzpatrick’s strong suspicions, because if they were true that would clearly point to an employee who, for perfectly understandable motives of emotionally driven confirmation bias, was targeting an innocent ex-couple. I should have added that John Kercher Junior has been employed in the IT and Communications core of the BBC for more than fifteen years. (I don’t need to remind anyone in this explosive world of the strength of confirmation bias and false convictions, or of the power of the internet; otherwise in the name of religion why would we see British citizens on film beheading innocent journalists?)

The BBC Investigation Service and then the BBC Trust, Jimmy-Savile-Complaint-style, did the predictable nothing, which was pretty much what I had expected, but at least I had tried. And after the Nonsencini verdict your team on TJMK and other colpevolisti websites went intercontinentally ballistic, (as of course you already know since you were there). Harry Rag himself went into overdrive, contacting journalists like there was no tomorrow, and also put his usual lies (truths of course I should say to one such as you of the other persuasion) onto Calideeva’s website named ‘justice4ever’. That was in early April.

So nasty little senescent scheister that I am, I tried to get whoever he was annoyed, because anger is the enemy of reason. I wrote on Cali’s blog...’ You know who I am, but who are you, Harry Rag, that you lie so much over such blatant and corrupt injustice? Is it pure emotion, or does the clink of money enter as a supplementary motive as well? … And is it an unfortunate coincidence, or just a rather revealing slip of the nom de plume that TMJK (The Machine JK) is an anagram of TJMK?’..... after a response from another poster I went on.....‘Who do you see in the mirror when you shave badly of a morning? Not Harry Rag, surely. What do your friends call you? The Machine? Or John? And is it truth or lies that many of your colleagues are whispering behind the closed doors of Jimmy Savile’s ex-employer...Make the others proud to call you brother, by finally coming out…. Information Technology and Communications should be about transparency and truth, not rags and machines’. (Please remember, I was not trying to be nasty here, but just to help prevent two obviously innocent young people being reconvicted by the second most dysfunctional legal system in the supposedly civilised world. I was trying to be provocative.)

In his anger this provoked a revealing reply from Rag ...’I politely recommend seeking professional psychological help …. You’ve already lodged a complaint about John Kercher with the BBC which lead to an investigation. Your wife should keep you away from the Internet before you hurt Meredith’s devastated family any more.....’ and in response to a reply from a fellow guilter.... ‘Yes....the fact he unquestioningly believed I was John Kercher Jr without any proof whatsoever speaks volumes about his gullibility and naivity’. Harry Rag had thus inadvertently revealed information he could surely only have got by actually being John Kercher. I made a copy of the exchange, and now find that the whole section after my first entry has been deleted. A pity that, but I have a copy..

So there you have it Naseer. You have probably seen it before. Oh, I should add that of course JK Junior got to know about my complaint through being informed as an interested party by the BBC Trust, before the intended release of the results of their investigations. Finally in early summer they got a reply from John saying he definitively is not this blogger, nor has he ever twatted, but asking that the results not be published, as it might give the wrong impression. His employer of course obliged, as such an excellent employer would.

Obviously it would certainly help all concerned, and above all the cause of justice4ever for Amanda and Raffaele, in this nasty blogospheric twitter era, if Harry Rag/The Machine would kindly come out of his closet and reveal exactly who he is, if he is not the above mentioned person. Or failing that if Scotland Yard’s Cypercrime people would kindly look into it.
· 6 hours ago

Quote:
Naseer Ahmad · Top Commenter · Works at Around the world, really.
So let me get this straight: the source for your claim that @harryrag is John Kercher Jr. is Ross Fitzpatrick, a BBC producer who in a private communication with Michelle Moore said " yes, I believe they are one and the same", and also indicated that someone in the BBC was of the same opinion? Fitzpatrick confirmed the same to you in an email saying ‘my suspicion of the HR (Harry Rag) identity is just that, but one that I feel sure is correct.’ ? And you just reveal that to me? Wow.

And you base your harassment of the Kerchers on that? That, and you parsed harry's communication with you, and an anagram with TJMK proves it conclusively?

I'm not surprised by Knoxii fan behavior, they after all were so annoyed at me at one point they thought I was John Kercher. But I am surprised a BBC producer said that to you, I will follow up with Ross Fitzpatrick to see if he can confirm what you just told me.
· 2 seconds ago


I suggest Dr. Anderson should look himself in the mirror, and his own 'emotional fixations'. Michelle Moore too.
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 3:49 am   Post subject: Re: DR ANDERSON VS THE KERCHERS   

guermantes wrote:
Ergon wrote:
...they also complained about Andrea Vogt's BBC 4 doc for 'bias'...


Just for Laughs: The nutty FOA's open letter to film director Michael Winterbottom

GROUND REPORT


How exactly is a photo of Amanda Knox preparing to ride her bike child pornography?

These people are insane. In what world can a 27 year old be described as a "child"? And how is taking a photo of a fully dressed Amanda Knox with her bike in the street "pornography"? This statement says more about the author of this meaningless Ground Report article, than it does about the photographer, who took the picture, or the paper that decided to publish it. Knox's supporters are obsessed with Amanda Knox as a sexual object of desire.

How does someone review and critic a movie they haven't seen?

This nonsense from Knox supporters is getting worse by the day.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 4:47 am   Post subject: Re: INTERNET STALKING CAMPAIGN - MICHELLE MOORE, DAVID ANDERSON   

Ergon wrote:
I just got David Anderson to confirm why he thinks Harry Rag/The Machine is John Kercher, Jr. , and why he keeps bringing it up. Full exchange published below


In case you haven't been following the conversation with David Anderson on Nina Burleigh's The Observer article Source
Quote:
David Anderson

[...]

Ross Fitzpatrick, who organised the BBC Hard Talk interview by Stephen Sackur of Raffaele Sollecito last September was so convinced of the identity back of HR and JKJr that in December that he started to address Harry Rag as ‘John’ on Twitter. Michele Moore spotted this and communicated with Fitzpatrick and was told that yes, I believe they a...re one and the same, and also indicated that someone in the BBC was of the same opinion. Fitzpatrick confirmed the same to me in an email saying ‘my suspicion of the HR (Harry Rag) identity is just that, but one that I feel sure is correct.’

[...]

And is it truth or lies that many of your colleagues are whispering behind the closed doors of Jimmy Savile’s ex-employer...


In typical FOA style, supposedly two suspecting BBC employees morph into "many". Gossip and rumours instead of facts.

I also wonder, if John Kercher Jr. was someone known under a pseudonym on the internet, giving his opinion about the case, what's the problem?

Amanda Knox and her family have been caught telling so many lies that most have stopped counting them years ago.

Amanda Knox, her family and supporters, they are all hypocrites.

They cannot attack Harry Rag's arguments, that's why they have to resort to attacking his character.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 5:32 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I don't understand what they're upset about. So what if it's JK?

If you murder a girl, you should consider yourself lucky that her big brother limits himself to posting facts and opinion based on court findings.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 12:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

The whole point though, is that The machine/Harry Rag is not John Kercher but the FOAKers are using their false claim that he is as an excuse to attack and bully the Kercher family.

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Offline dgfred


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 2:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael wrote:
Nobody, is posting these things to create facts or certainties about the crime or individuals concerned. They are offerings of potential insights only.

The FACT is, we are all individuals here, not one homogeneous mass. That means, some people may offer perspectives that others find challenging. I wouldn't seek to change that, for then we risk becoming the thought police.



Heck yeah... to each his/her own. hugz-)
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 4:47 pm   Post subject: DAVID ANDERSON FOLLIES   

More communication from David Anderson. Now he wants @harryrag to 'reveal' himself, or he will continue to harass the Kerchers. As Peggy Ganong points out, the man is barking mad.

Barking mad
Quote:
David Anderson

Naseer Ahmad Look Naseer, by all means check with Ross Fitzpatrick, who will certainly confirm the above. However it would be a much greater contribution to justice you could get Harry Rag aka The Machine, or Peter Quennell, or anyone else who knows him personally, to come out in the open and tell us (with further evidence) who he actually is, rather than have him continue his campaign of vendetta against two innocent young ex-lovers. So please do that, let us all know, and get him to stop. As long as the strong probability remains that TM = JK I shall put justice for two innocent people who have been harassed venemously and persistently in court and out by the Kercher’s lawyer Maresca, before worrying about upsetting their sensibilities further. Because this is about more than sensibilities.

Of course it is a tragedy Meredith was murdered nearly seven years ago, but this was the action of Rudy Guede acting alone during a break-in gone wrong. The questions they should be asking, but aren’t, include; why did the police authorise Guede’s release back to Perugia 5 days before Meredith’s murder, when he had been caught red-handed having broken into Maria del Prato’s school in Milan (probably for the second time) and Milan police had found in his possession a Perugia Lawyer Paolo Brocchi’s computer, a stolen mobile phone from same lawyer, a lady’s gold watch, and a stolen kitchen knife? Brocchi’s office was broken in using exactly the modus entrandi Guede used on November 1st. Why had they not followed up the Tramontano burglary in late September? Again Guede was identified. Doesn’t that all merit some questions about Perugia police integrity? Because if they had done the job they are paid for, Meredith would still be alive. Shouldn’t that make John Kercher very angry indeed? It would me if she was my sister.

Why were Meredith’s and three other relevant computers destroyed by the postal police? And why have putative semen stains on the cushion on which Meredith’s lifeless body lay never been tested? Sperm, after all, are basically male DNA transport machines; yet Maresca and the prosecution have persistently obstructed this. The prosecution insist on more than one killer, so whose DNA is it, Guede’s or another? We can be sure it is not Sollecito’s or boyfriend Giacomo Silenzi’s. Why was the team forensics so bad that Conti and Vacchiotti counted no less than 52 protocol violations on their own film? Why do they believe police stories about what Amanda said when subjected to overnight interrogation; have they never seen evidence that the Reid technique will make almost anyone confess to any crime the police want to frame them for? Miraculously (and this speaks much for her strength of character), all they got Amanda to do was IMAGINE. Why was that interrogation not filmed? There are lots more questions they would be asking if they had not become brain-washed by 7 years of lies.

Instead it is sad to see that the Kerchers, by hiding behind anger, false stories fed to them when they were most vulnerable, and now a substantial financial motive, actively obstruct the truth. In this way they help the ‘party of the prosecutors’ target two innocent people, and may well in the long run contribute to further murder by a very disturbed young serial burglar and sleep walker who is already out of prison on day release. These are all reasons why those concerned with seeing justice need to know the identity of Harry Rag/ aka The Machine. Ahmad, you are a caring if confused person; just reflect on how sad but yet how important it would be if I am right. Of course I believe that I am, but like any good scientist I am asking to be proved wrong with hard, concrete evidence. Please help disprove my hypothesis, by exposing, with new evidence, just who he is.
· 5 hours ago


Quote:
Naseer Ahmad · Top Commenter · Works at Around the world, really.

David Anderson No, it is you that's wrong for casting speculation as proof. You and Michelle Moore are on a fishing expedition and using rumour to egg on a few disturbed people on the internet, which is wrong. It's you that said a BBC producer expressed an opinion on this, and now you want me to do your dirty work for you? You made the assertion, not I, and failed to prove it.

At this stage it looks like Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito will have their convictions confirmed. Nothing you say or do will change that, and I am only discussing your baseless accusations against the Kercher family.
· 2 seconds ago
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Nothing new in this latest article in Venture Capital Post:

Amanda Knox Murder Film: Will "The Face of an Angel" pursue its premiere dates despite legal threats?

VENTURE CAPITAL POST

except it contains untrue information and factual errors, but we are now so used to the distorted picture presented in the media, we don't even pay attention anymore.

Quote:
Amanda's lawyer, Luciano Ghirga has since said that "The Face of an Angel" could affect his client's image in court, Sydney Morning Herald reported. He also believed that the showing of the film could lead to possible conviction without an absolute explanation.


The bolded part: Did Ghirga ever say that? I'm not aware of this. It's not mentioned in any of the newspaper reports, neither in the original DAILY MAIL article, nor in the Sydney Morning Herald piece, so where did an anonymous 'Staff Writer' of VCP get all this??? Is this a product of his own imagination? And what's "an absolute explanation" supposed to mean?

Quote:
Barbie Latza Nadeau, a CNN journalist, wrote a novel titled "Angel Face," of which the film was based on.


BLN's book is NOT a novel.

Quote:
Both Knox and Sollecito has been fighting for an appeal for the initial guilty verdicts...


They haven't been fighting for an appeal. In the Italian justice system, the defendants have an automatic right to appeal their convictions.

Quote:
...while Guede's own guilty verdict remains in limbo considering the latest decisions regarding the former lovers' cases against them.


I believe Guede's guilty verdict is final since he has exhausted all his appeals and legal options available to him.

So, when will online news sources and telecasters stop stuffing our minds with inaccurate details? A rhetorical question, sigh.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

It's always been about this, exposing Harry Rag's identity, whilst also fabricating excuses to attack the Kerchers. We are not going to be held to ransom by these obnoxious people, rather we will expose them for what they really are!

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 8:48 pm   Post subject: RAFFY'S NEW FUND PAGE   

"I once was lost
Now I'm funded
"?

Report this

1 tweet, 35 shares on Facebook, 0 Euros collected so far.

According to this site: YouCaring

Quote:
YouCaring is a free fundraising website, created for individuals wanting to raise funds for medical expenses, tuition assistance, adoption fundraising, and funding for mission trips.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:02 pm   Post subject: Re: RAFFY'S NEW FUND PAGE   

Ergon wrote:
"I once was lost
Now I'm funded
"?

Report this

1 tweet, 35 shares on Facebook, 0 Euros collected so far.

According to this site: YouCaring

Quote:
YouCaring is a free fundraising website, created for individuals wanting to raise funds for medical expenses, tuition assistance, adoption fundraising, and funding for mission trips.



Donations: 0
Supporters: 0
Comments: 0
Mentions of Meredith: 0
Gallery: Full of photos of...himself

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

BBC's Ross Fitzpatrick's views on the FOA:

Image

(I'm posting this under the assumption that Harry Rag got permission to publish the direct messages)

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline The Machine


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Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:14 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I hope Ross Fitzpatrick likes the tweet about him:

https://twitter.com/harryrag/status/511998887448838145

Please retweet. Thanks.
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 11:44 pm   Post subject: Re: DAVID ANDERSON FOLLIES   

Ergon wrote:
More communication from David Anderson. Now he wants @harryrag to 'reveal' himself, or he will continue to harass the Kerchers. As Peggy Ganong points out, the man is barking mad.

Barking mad
Quote:
David Anderson

Naseer Ahmad Look Naseer, by all means check with Ross Fitzpatrick, who will certainly confirm the above. However it would be a much greater contribution to justice you could get Harry Rag aka The Machine, or Peter Quennell, or anyone else who knows him personally, to come out in the open and tell us (with further evidence) who he actually is, rather than have him continue his campaign of vendetta against two innocent young ex-lovers. So please do that, let us all know, and get him to stop. As long as the strong probability remains that TM = JK I shall put justice for two innocent people who have been harassed venemously and persistently in court and out by the Kercher’s lawyer Maresca, before worrying about upsetting their sensibilities further. Because this is about more than sensibilities.

Of course it is a tragedy Meredith was murdered nearly seven years ago, but this was the action of Rudy Guede acting alone during a break-in gone wrong. The questions they should be asking, but aren’t, include; why did the police authorise Guede’s release back to Perugia 5 days before Meredith’s murder, when he had been caught red-handed having broken into Maria del Prato’s school in Milan (probably for the second time) and Milan police had found in his possession a Perugia Lawyer Paolo Brocchi’s computer, a stolen mobile phone from same lawyer, a lady’s gold watch, and a stolen kitchen knife? Brocchi’s office was broken in using exactly the modus entrandi Guede used on November 1st. Why had they not followed up the Tramontano burglary in late September? Again Guede was identified. Doesn’t that all merit some questions about Perugia police integrity? Because if they had done the job they are paid for, Meredith would still be alive. Shouldn’t that make John Kercher very angry indeed? It would me if she was my sister.

Why were Meredith’s and three other relevant computers destroyed by the postal police? And why have putative semen stains on the cushion on which Meredith’s lifeless body lay never been tested? Sperm, after all, are basically male DNA transport machines; yet Maresca and the prosecution have persistently obstructed this. The prosecution insist on more than one killer, so whose DNA is it, Guede’s or another? We can be sure it is not Sollecito’s or boyfriend Giacomo Silenzi’s. Why was the team forensics so bad that Conti and Vacchiotti counted no less than 52 protocol violations on their own film? Why do they believe police stories about what Amanda said when subjected to overnight interrogation; have they never seen evidence that the Reid technique will make almost anyone confess to any crime the police want to frame them for? Miraculously (and this speaks much for her strength of character), all they got Amanda to do was IMAGINE. Why was that interrogation not filmed? There are lots more questions they would be asking if they had not become brain-washed by 7 years of lies.

Instead it is sad to see that the Kerchers, by hiding behind anger, false stories fed to them when they were most vulnerable, and now a substantial financial motive, actively obstruct the truth. In this way they help the ‘party of the prosecutors’ target two innocent people, and may well in the long run contribute to further murder by a very disturbed young serial burglar and sleep walker who is already out of prison on day release. These are all reasons why those concerned with seeing justice need to know the identity of Harry Rag/ aka The Machine. Ahmad, you are a caring if confused person; just reflect on how sad but yet how important it would be if I am right. Of course I believe that I am, but like any good scientist I am asking to be proved wrong with hard, concrete evidence. Please help disprove my hypothesis, by exposing, with new evidence, just who he is.
· 5 hours ago


Quote:
Naseer Ahmad · Top Commenter · Works at Around the world, really.

David Anderson No, it is you that's wrong for casting speculation as proof. You and Michelle Moore are on a fishing expedition and using rumour to egg on a few disturbed people on the internet, which is wrong. It's you that said a BBC producer expressed an opinion on this, and now you want me to do your dirty work for you? You made the assertion, not I, and failed to prove it.

At this stage it looks like Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito will have their convictions confirmed. Nothing you say or do will change that, and I am only discussing your baseless accusations against the Kercher family.
· 2 seconds ago


Thank you Ergon for the exchange.

I do wonder how David Anderson can ascertain whose semen it was or wasn't on the pillow case?

It has not even been confirmed that the stain is semen. It might be or maybe it is something else.
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Offline corpusvile


Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 5:38 pm

Posts: 352

PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:17 am   Post subject: Re: DAVID ANDERSON FOLLIES   

Nell wrote:
Ergon wrote:
More communication from David Anderson. Now he wants @harryrag to 'reveal' himself, or he will continue to harass the Kerchers. As Peggy Ganong points out, the man is barking mad.

Barking mad
Quote:
David Anderson

Naseer Ahmad Look Naseer, by all means check with Ross Fitzpatrick, who will certainly confirm the above. However it would be a much greater contribution to justice you could get Harry Rag aka The Machine, or Peter Quennell, or anyone else who knows him personally, to come out in the open and tell us (with further evidence) who he actually is, rather than have him continue his campaign of vendetta against two innocent young ex-lovers. So please do that, let us all know, and get him to stop. As long as the strong probability remains that TM = JK I shall put justice for two innocent people who have been harassed venemously and persistently in court and out by the Kercher’s lawyer Maresca, before worrying about upsetting their sensibilities further. Because this is about more than sensibilities.

Of course it is a tragedy Meredith was murdered nearly seven years ago, but this was the action of Rudy Guede acting alone during a break-in gone wrong. The questions they should be asking, but aren’t, include; why did the police authorise Guede’s release back to Perugia 5 days before Meredith’s murder, when he had been caught red-handed having broken into Maria del Prato’s school in Milan (probably for the second time) and Milan police had found in his possession a Perugia Lawyer Paolo Brocchi’s computer, a stolen mobile phone from same lawyer, a lady’s gold watch, and a stolen kitchen knife? Brocchi’s office was broken in using exactly the modus entrandi Guede used on November 1st. Why had they not followed up the Tramontano burglary in late September? Again Guede was identified. Doesn’t that all merit some questions about Perugia police integrity? Because if they had done the job they are paid for, Meredith would still be alive. Shouldn’t that make John Kercher very angry indeed? It would me if she was my sister.

Why were Meredith’s and three other relevant computers destroyed by the postal police? And why have putative semen stains on the cushion on which Meredith’s lifeless body lay never been tested? Sperm, after all, are basically male DNA transport machines; yet Maresca and the prosecution have persistently obstructed this. The prosecution insist on more than one killer, so whose DNA is it, Guede’s or another? We can be sure it is not Sollecito’s or boyfriend Giacomo Silenzi’s. Why was the team forensics so bad that Conti and Vacchiotti counted no less than 52 protocol violations on their own film? Why do they believe police stories about what Amanda said when subjected to overnight interrogation; have they never seen evidence that the Reid technique will make almost anyone confess to any crime the police want to frame them for? Miraculously (and this speaks much for her strength of character), all they got Amanda to do was IMAGINE. Why was that interrogation not filmed? There are lots more questions they would be asking if they had not become brain-washed by 7 years of lies.

Instead it is sad to see that the Kerchers, by hiding behind anger, false stories fed to them when they were most vulnerable, and now a substantial financial motive, actively obstruct the truth. In this way they help the ‘party of the prosecutors’ target two innocent people, and may well in the long run contribute to further murder by a very disturbed young serial burglar and sleep walker who is already out of prison on day release. These are all reasons why those concerned with seeing justice need to know the identity of Harry Rag/ aka The Machine. Ahmad, you are a caring if confused person; just reflect on how sad but yet how important it would be if I am right. Of course I believe that I am, but like any good scientist I am asking to be proved wrong with hard, concrete evidence. Please help disprove my hypothesis, by exposing, with new evidence, just who he is.
· 5 hours ago


Quote:
Naseer Ahmad · Top Commenter · Works at Around the world, really.

David Anderson No, it is you that's wrong for casting speculation as proof. You and Michelle Moore are on a fishing expedition and using rumour to egg on a few disturbed people on the internet, which is wrong. It's you that said a BBC producer expressed an opinion on this, and now you want me to do your dirty work for you? You made the assertion, not I, and failed to prove it.

At this stage it looks like Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito will have their convictions confirmed. Nothing you say or do will change that, and I am only discussing your baseless accusations against the Kercher family.
· 2 seconds ago


Thank you Ergon for the exchange.

I do wonder how David Anderson can ascertain whose semen it was or wasn't on the pillow case?

It has not even been confirmed that the stain is semen. It might be or maybe it is something else.


The stain has always been a red herring non argument to me.
As you said, it was never confirmed what the stain was. However, even it it WAS semen & even if it WAS Guede's, it's still irrelevant as it doesn't magically void the evidence of multiple attackers & all three were convicted of participating in a sexual assault. If it's semen & Sollecito's, then it makes things even worse for him. Alternatively, it could have been Giacomo Silenzi's.
Basically had the stain have been tested & shown to be semen belonging to either Guede or Sollecito, then it would simply compound their guilt all the more. Just another attempt at straw clutching from FOA imo.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:30 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

corpusvile wrote:
The stain has always been a red herring non argument to me.
As you said, it was never confirmed what the stain was. However, even it it WAS semen & even if it WAS Guede's, it's still irrelevant as it doesn't magically void the evidence of multiple attackers & all three were convicted of participating in a sexual assault. If it's semen & Sollecito's, then it makes things even worse for him. Alternatively, it could have been Giacomo Silenzi's.
Basically had the stain have been tested & shown to be semen belonging to either Guede or Sollecito, then it would simply compound their guilt all the more. Just another attempt at straw clutching from FOA imo.



Exactly, it would change nothing. We already know the victim was sexually assaulted by Guede and Sollecito (along with Knox), they are all convicted for it, so what more would it tell us? The only purpose for them to keep raising it is innuendo. They never explain what important new thing it would tell us or how it would demonstrate the innocence of Knox and Sollecito. That's because it doesn't. It is, as you say, a red herring, a meaningless diversion to change the focus from evidence that does matter and the guilt of the perpetrators to evidence that doesn't matter, claims the investigators did a poor job and to move the spotlight onto Rudy instead. So transparent.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:43 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael wrote:
corpusvile wrote:
The stain has always been a red herring non argument to me.
As you said, it was never confirmed what the stain was. However, even it it WAS semen & even if it WAS Guede's, it's still irrelevant as it doesn't magically void the evidence of multiple attackers & all three were convicted of participating in a sexual assault. If it's semen & Sollecito's, then it makes things even worse for him. Alternatively, it could have been Giacomo Silenzi's.
Basically had the stain have been tested & shown to be semen belonging to either Guede or Sollecito, then it would simply compound their guilt all the more. Just another attempt at straw clutching from FOA imo.



Exactly, it would change nothing. We already know the victim was sexually assaulted by Guede and Sollecito (along with Knox), they are all convicted for it, so what more would it tell us? The only purpose for them to keep raising it is innuendo. They never explain what important new thing it would tell us or how it would demonstrate the innocence of Knox and Sollecito. That's because it doesn't. It is, as you say, a red herring, a meaningless diversion to change the focus from evidence that does matter and the guilt of the perpetrators to evidence that doesn't matter, claims the investigators did a poor job and to move the spotlight onto Rudy instead. So transparent.


I agree with both of you.

I was just stunned how David Anderson is able to exclude people from leaving a semen stain by just looking at a photo of the stain. It must be some sort of special gift he has.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:37 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Well, one can always perform such miracles when one has made up all one's conclusions in advance.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:46 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Apparently the FOAKR crowd seem to think merely claiming something makes it a reality. They were railroaded, but they can never say how or why. Their trial was unfair, but they can't precisely explain how it was unfair as I've yet to see them identify valid errors in Massei or Nencini's reasoning the way Galati did with Hellman's. They claim Hellman was the one judge out of dozens who got it right (apart from the callunnia upholding, he was wrong on that, but did this because he was afraid of the evil prosecution, which is another silly claim), yet can't precisely explain how Galati was wrong and how his reasoning is flawed. They claim conspiracy & simultaneous contamination, but again can give no clear basis for this either. And on and on.

I'm really looking forward to Cassation upholding their conviction just so FOA can finally stfu, after their initial whinging and meltdowns.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:50 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

No, they think simply repeating something endlessly substitutes for actual facts, proof or evidence and makes it true.

When Knox is finally jailed, there will still be one or two die-hards whinging about it. But we'll be able to completely ignore them then. Meredith's life can then be celebrated, instead of mourned.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 2:16 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Apparently, when one talking point gets old, they just come up with another one. First they said the evidence was meaningless because it could point to anyone, matching "half Italy" and only after that defence failed they came up with the claim of contamination. The talking points just keep coming as long as this case drags on.

I recently watched an old interview with Deanne and Curt Knox. The interview was recorded after the conclusion of the first trial which ended in a guilty verdict for Knox and Sollecito.

In that interview the family claimed that Amanda Knox had been convicted because of anti-Americanism and because she was "sexually active".

This coming from a family who flew their canned hamburgers to Italy of all places. If that's not comical, I don't know what is.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:18 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

The purported semen stain was always part of one the alternative scenarios floated by the FOAK. That Rudy Guede was part of a drug gang and Meredith was attacked by other males as well. (Mixed DNA profiles etc.) This is where they were trying to go with all the hints they dropped, until they decided to go with Lone Killer. Now they know the stain won't be tested, they're throwing it in to muddy the waters, like the prison stoolies paid to say similar.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:23 am   Post subject: OT, SUPERNATURAL SHIT COMING UP!   

Offtopic: Guermantes, the word I was looking for? It's Bogatyr
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:39 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Is there any way to devise a fund to get this stain tested once and for all? I would contribute. I am almost positive it is Giacomo's and have no problems asking for it to be tested... Get this red herring out of the picture altogether is my thought. It this illegal or something?

PS: Thanks for not going overboard with the OP trial. We are about Meredith.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:14 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

The evidence phase is over, zinnia. I do not believe the prosecution can legally retest, but we'll know how the Supreme Court rules soon enough.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:31 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Please read this vital translation at TJMK Analysis #1 Of Testimony Of Marco Chiacchiera, Director, Organized Crime Section, Flying Squad

Posted by Cardiol MD on 09/14/14 at 10:19 PM
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:18 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Nell wrote:
Apparently, when one talking point gets old, they just come up with another one. First they said the evidence was meaningless because it could point to anyone, matching "half Italy" and only after that defence failed they came up with the claim of contamination. The talking points just keep coming as long as this case drags on.

I recently watched an old interview with Deanne and Curt Knox. The interview was recorded after the conclusion of the first trial which ended in a guilty verdict for Knox and Sollecito.

In that interview the family claimed that Amanda Knox had been convicted because of anti-Americanism and because she was "sexually active".

This coming from a family who flew their canned hamburgers to Italy of all places. If that's not comical, I don't know what is.


I had to laugh at the anti American claim, considering they also had no qualms about trying and convicting Sollecito & Guede.
I was also chuckling at the sexually active thing, as they clearly haven't met Italians who have no hang ups about sex, generally. Heh, I didn't know that about the hamburgers though. :lol: :lol:
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:35 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
The purported semen stain was always part of one the alternative scenarios floated by the FOAK. That Rudy Guede was part of a drug gang and Meredith was attacked by other males as well. (Mixed DNA profiles etc.) This is where they were trying to go with all the hints they dropped, until they decided to go with Lone Killer. Now they know the stain won't be tested, they're throwing it in to muddy the waters, like the prison stoolies paid to say similar.


Raffaele Sollecito wrote in his book "Honor Bound" that his defence team decided against the testing of the semen stain out of fear he would be framed.

It might be his after all.

Quote:
“We thought long and hard about demanding a full analysis, but we did not trust the Polizia Scientifica as far as we could spit and were deathly afraid they might choose to construe that the semen was mine. So we held back.”
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:06 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

corpusvile wrote:
Nell wrote:
Apparently, when one talking point gets old, they just come up with another one. First they said the evidence was meaningless because it could point to anyone, matching "half Italy" and only after that defence failed they came up with the claim of contamination. The talking points just keep coming as long as this case drags on.

I recently watched an old interview with Deanne and Curt Knox. The interview was recorded after the conclusion of the first trial which ended in a guilty verdict for Knox and Sollecito.

In that interview the family claimed that Amanda Knox had been convicted because of anti-Americanism and because she was "sexually active".

This coming from a family who flew their canned hamburgers to Italy of all places. If that's not comical, I don't know what is.


I had to laugh at the anti American claim, considering they also had no qualms about trying and convicting Sollecito & Guede.
I was also chuckling at the sexually active thing, as they clearly haven't met Italians who have no hang ups about sex, generally. Heh, I didn't know that about the hamburgers though. :lol: :lol:


Same here. It's ridiculous and they say that with a straight face, it's astonishing really.

The quote with the Hamburgers is in Nina Burleigh's book and I have to correct myself, they were pre-packaged and not canned.

Quote:
The Fatal Gift of Beauty by Nina Burleigh

Chapter 5, American Girl

[...]

While Amanda was on trial, he [Curt Knox] was downsized out of his Macy's job, and headhunters in Seattle wouldn't touch him with a ten-foot pole once they'd Googled his name. Still, he had a second chance to emotionally support Amanda - which he did by mortgaging his house and traveling to Italy regularly, toting over suitcases full of Manwich sloppy Joe sauce and Hamburger Helper so he wouldn't have to eat Italian food.

In Italy, he learned at least one important fact about himself, he said "I hate old." Old included Renaissance art, churches, medieval buildings and the Latin-based language itself, which neither he nor any member of the family besides Amanda tried to learn.


Right under these two paragraphs, there is great parenting advice from Curt Knox who told Nina Burleigh he secretly installed GPS trackers on his daughters' phones so that he could track their moves while he was in Italy. This comes accompanied with a quote from him that "boys are bad for girls".

Strange family.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:56 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

zinnia wrote:
Is there any way to devise a fund to get this stain tested once and for all? I would contribute. I am almost positive it is Giacomo's and have no problems asking for it to be tested... Get this red herring out of the picture altogether is my thought. It this illegal or something?

PS: Thanks for not going overboard with the OP trial. We are about Meredith.


Hi Zinnia. We will allow some off-topic stuff here, but won't allow it to dominate the main discussion. I think that's a good balance.

Get the semen stain tested to what purpose? The FOAKers will simply only switch to one of their other many talking points. It would be pointless. It certainly wouldn't tell us anything of value about the crime. In any case, permission from the court is required for any testing and they've already denied it twice because they, like us, have judged it to have no value. Besides, even if we tested it independently the results wouldn't be accepted since all parties wouldn't be present for the testing. Maresca and the prosecution certainly wouldn't be, for a test they don;t support. And the defence would simply accuse us of fakery if the results were not to their liking. And as others have said, the evidence stage is completely over, in any case. Only important NEW evidence (not evidence that has already been ruled on by the courts) can be submitted.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:12 pm   Post subject: HAMBURGER HELPER   

This is the Hamburger Helper Curt took to Italy, Nell. The best pasta in the world right there in Italy but this is what he preferred.

There's Potato Stroganoff and other flavours too I am told :)


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:51 pm   Post subject: HELP FIGHT THIS INJUSTICE   

Goal: 500,000 Euros

Got a donation already! 1 donor, 85 Euros.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:58 pm   Post subject: Re: HELP FIGHT THIS INJUSTICE   

Ergon wrote:
Goal: 500,000 Euros

Got a donation already! 1 donor, 85 Euros.



Yeah, probably his dad! :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

But not big sis? She's really broke, apparently. Too many devastated families. Best way to end this, Raffaele. Go to prison. Be a man.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:58 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael wrote:
Sparkles wrote:
Anyone speak Spanish (Colombian)?

This appears to be a criminal and behavioural analysis of Ak but he speaks too fast for my basic grasp of Spanish :)

CASO AMANDA KNOX – JUAN ANGEL ANTA – ESPAÑA - http://admejoresseguridad.com/archives/3705


Hi Sparkles, thanks for the heads up. I speak a little Spanish, but our Nell is advanced fluent in it. Perhaps, she may like to take a look when she has some time.


I have been a bit behind with my posting lately. Regarding the analyisis from Juan Angel Anta, a summary has been made and translated into English, available on his blog.

Juan Angel Anta is a criminologist and expert in verbal-corporal analysis and the detection of deception.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 2:15 pm   Post subject: Re: HAMBURGER HELPER   

Ergon wrote:
This is the Hamburger Helper Curt took to Italy, Nell. The best pasta in the world right there in Italy but this is what he preferred.

There's Potato Stroganoff and other flavours too I am told :)


Before Curt Knox, I had never heard of "Hamburger Helper", so I googled it.

"Hamburger Helper is a line of General Mills packaged food products, sold under the Betty Crocker brand, which consist primarily of boxed pasta bundled with a packet or packets of powdered sauce or seasonings."

That must have been the most expensive pre-packaged food he ever ate, considering what it costs these days to check in extra luggage. If he had shopped for food at the local food market he would have saved money and enjoyed a healtiher diet.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 2:20 pm   Post subject: Re: HELP FIGHT THIS INJUSTICE   

Ergon wrote:
Goal: 500,000 Euros

Got a donation already! 1 donor, 85 Euros.


Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito should be ashamed of themselves. Both sold their story for millions and they have the nerve to keep begging.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael wrote:
Zorba wrote:
I'm sure star gazing has absolutely nothing at all to do with spirituality.


Actually, it does.

In any case, we're an online community and within all communities, there is a broad range of world views. I do not see why we should be any less liberal tolerating that online then we are in the real world. Diversity is wealth.



Yes it does,... in YOUR opinion Michael, thing is, your opinion is only as valid as anyone else's if you get my not so very much drift as much as statement of FACT, you do not often state that it is your opinion but you do write things in a way that begs it (the disclaimer), yet the way you write it makes it seem as if you think your opinion has some extra more valid worth. It's too final for me, so to me, it is always opinion, if you say, Yes it does. I have to read the invisible, which is in full: Yes it does, in my opinion.

Of course everyone is welcome to an own opinion, that means besides your one, however, Mr Ergon, yes Ergon, to be straight as I don't like speaking about someone as if they are not here, you write things, often enough, as though we are ''us'' and they are ''them'', I find that very limiting and never accept here, that means here with people who want to be friends as soon as they start conglomerating me into their group I either fuck off or make it clear, through word and action, that I am an individual, so everything anyone says on our so-called side must be seen to be agreed with, everything is thus EXCELLENT. No, I wish to make it clear that I am neither schizophrenic nor do I have 2 heads score 21, when someone writes here, they speak for themselves, not me, the road is fraught with the dangers created by self-aggrandizement, the Italian courts will not be influenced by any online activity by those who have the time to devote all of their time to being on the extreme of superficiality (part of this age) ''Tweety'' all day and night, or engaging on a sort of schoolboy level, arguing with people who are obviously a total waste of time.

Maybe, if I look harder, I will find value in it, but I keep thinking, don't fucking kid yourself, it is murder, stop the nonsense, I do not want to know about those veritable c2unts who would knowingly try to pervert the course of justice, even knowing the 3 are guilty but not caring about what happened to Meredith or her family, they are cruel yes they fcuking well are, but I cannot get past the fact that to me all of this engaging with those wankers seems like something really childish, they are not worth it. I know their versions need to be counteracted, but I'm just not certain that engaging with them, is the right or best way to do that. I couldn't do it, even if I had the time and I do not as I need to work. However, or this notwithstanding, nonetheless, nevertheless whatever the best way or effective way is, and engaging could be effective, it's just I cannot see it because you allow them to reduce you to their very same level or mentality and I just want to make it as clear as day, that I speak for me, as I do not assume I can speak for everyone else just because they also happen to think the 3 are guilty of cold-blooded murder.

My whole life has been a spiritual one and anyone who knows what I mean by spiritual will also understand how much harder it is in this world to be so inclined. I was always it, as I have a memory like no other person I ever met, it's a blessing, can anyone here remember drawing their first breath and thinking that white jacketed bloke was G$od your dad? Remember wanting to find that perfect mother and father, the highest, remember being disappointed to the core upon discovering you had wound up in the land of the living dead, where nobody really saw that you WERE, disappointed at not finding the light you so desire deep down inside, remember becoming afraid of your parents who appeared to have been smitten by the bug of the zombie folk, already caught up in the theories of why it is right for humans to be cruel, headache as a baby, just talking in your high chair, upset at your parents instructing you in the ways of this world where you must be cruel to survive, yet if you knew the unborn baby you, maybe, I'm only saying maybe, because I cannot speak for you, you'd have been traumatised from your seat of real love viewing those who demanded that you do as they did and say it is right to kill.
No of course you don't because you have not regressed or worked enough introspectively, I assume anyway, not delved into your own inner side to discover who you really are and why you were born and what it is you are destined to learn in order to evolve, let the sheep follow the sheep, the way of the blind.

In my view Knox and Sollecito ARE victims, yes, as most people are, they did not create anything new, they latched into and onto the vast ocean of bad that already existed before Jesus, which has always existed because the human cannot deal with the physical world he or she finds him/herself plunged into.

It's hard not to latch onto the bad of this world. It comes in varying degrees. The worst part is the most extreme, which is torture and murder. In terms of spiritual and soul, if these exist, then to do what Knox and Sollecito did (accompanied by the equally dozy Guede) is the easiest way, easiest path of failure in life, as to do bad is the easiest thing to do since society promotes it, even demands it in different ways.
Western society, to start with, doesn't like to assume responsibility for the ill effects of its own existence, of course the Islamic Nation is awful, but there are real reasons it has been as much as nurtured, promoted through the bad practice of Western nations, and in this one can never speak solely in terms of the past 10 years, we are talking about the course of history.
The blood that has been shed, the lack of love and understanding in that, and not least of all by the lack of love, inclusion and understanding from the preaching West, look at Scotland, in fact, many could not care any less than they already do about the effects of departure from the union, since the past plays too heavily on the zeitgeist where they cannot, no matter how hard they may or may not have tried, get past the humiliation, the degradation, the bullying, the force they really did experience. They've had no choice, they were bullied, before they could willingly decide: hey maybe we could benefit from joining with these others.

They'd need to be freed from the tyranny of the days long gone before they can make any decisions. I hope they do separate then they can stop moaning as there are more than enough poor people in the south too and the decisions made were always made by the lords and the ladies, the royals and their obedient servants the latter of which had entirely no right to disagree.

So Knox and Sollecito are willing victims, having latched onto the bad and adding to it, they spent their chance in this life to get beyond selfish pursuit, they remain in the usual hedonistic tendency, which is flooding all of the world, they are the fruit of all that is wrong with this world, it was easy to do what they did.
This world with its man-made societies invites people to be/become cruel bastards, who are all of those who are able to count their billions, not lose a wink of sleep with it while knowing so many children die each day from lack of love and care and resources; are they G$OOD G$UYS!? Or are they all; part of the disease, that is inciting human violence and disregard for others?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Zorba wrote:
Yes it does,... in YOUR opinion Michael, thing is, your opinion is only as valid as anyone else's if you get my not so very much drift as much as statement of FACT, you do not often state that it is your opinion but you do write things in a way that begs it (the disclaimer), yet the way you write it makes it seem as if you think your opinion has some extra more valid worth. It's too final for me, so to me, it is always opinion, if you say, Yes it does. I have to read the invisible, which is in full: Yes it does, in my opinion.


I make such a statement from direct knowledge, rather then mere opinion. For example, it is not my opinion that I'm sitting on a chair, I know I am. Of course, I do not expect anyone else to accept what I say as absolute fact, but that's just how it is.

You do not have to accept what Ergon says regarding astrology or anything else as valid. All that you have to accept as valid is that he has the same right to post as you or I, whether he has your approval or not. Of course, you also have the right to disagree with him. This principle isn't complex.

As for me and my inner work regarding my path, that is for me and me alone to know about and I rarely, if ever, share insights about it with others on a public board.

And with that, let's change the topic please.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Nell wrote:
corpusvile wrote:
Nell wrote:
Apparently, when one talking point gets old, they just come up with another one. First they said the evidence was meaningless because it could point to anyone, matching "half Italy" and only after that defence failed they came up with the claim of contamination. The talking points just keep coming as long as this case drags on.

I recently watched an old interview with Deanne and Curt Knox. The interview was recorded after the conclusion of the first trial which ended in a guilty verdict for Knox and Sollecito.

In that interview the family claimed that Amanda Knox had been convicted because of anti-Americanism and because she was "sexually active".

This coming from a family who flew their canned hamburgers to Italy of all places. If that's not comical, I don't know what is.


I had to laugh at the anti American claim, considering they also had no qualms about trying and convicting Sollecito & Guede.
I was also chuckling at the sexually active thing, as they clearly haven't met Italians who have no hang ups about sex, generally. Heh, I didn't know that about the hamburgers though. :lol: :lol:


Same here. It's ridiculous and they say that with a straight face, it's astonishing really.

The quote with the Hamburgers is in Nina Burleigh's book and I have to correct myself, they were pre-packaged and not canned.

Quote:
The Fatal Gift of Beauty by Nina Burleigh

Chapter 5, American Girl

[...]

While Amanda was on trial, he [Curt Knox] was downsized out of his Macy's job, and headhunters in Seattle wouldn't touch him with a ten-foot pole once they'd Googled his name. Still, he had a second chance to emotionally support Amanda - which he did by mortgaging his house and traveling to Italy regularly, toting over suitcases full of Manwich sloppy Joe sauce and Hamburger Helper so he wouldn't have to eat Italian food.

In Italy, he learned at least one important fact about himself, he said "I hate old." Old included Renaissance art, churches, medieval buildings and the Latin-based language itself, which neither he nor any member of the family besides Amanda tried to learn.


Right under these two paragraphs, there is great parenting advice from Curt Knox who told Nina Burleigh he secretly installed GPS trackers on his daughters' phones so that he could track their moves while he was in Italy. This comes accompanied with a quote from him that "boys are bad for girls".

Strange family.


Lmao, that's hilarious he'd bring his own food, talk about a xenophobe. If he's that way inclined, there's plenty of fast food outlets In Italy for those who don't like Italian food, although I personally love it. :D

That's actually kinda creepy of Curt as well as strange with his tracking devices. huh-) Daddy's little angels, eh?[skype][/skype]
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Offline corpusvile


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:26 pm   Post subject: Re: HAMBURGER HELPER   

Ergon wrote:
This is the Hamburger Helper Curt took to Italy, Nell. The best pasta in the world right there in Italy but this is what he preferred.

There's Potato Stroganoff and other flavours too I am told :)


Lol I first heard of Hamburger helper as a kid, as it was mentioned in a film I really liked at the time, the original Fun With Dick & Jane. I thought it was like a McDonald's or something. :lol:[reverso][/reverso]
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

The YouCaring RS donation site seems to have been taken down.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
The YouCaring RS donation site seems to have been taken down.



Great news!!!

Let's hope it's permanent and not simply a temporary take down!

_________________
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Offline RumaRämäRomu


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:34 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Nell wrote:
Raffaele Sollecito wrote in his book "Honor Bound" that his defence team decided against the testing of the semen stain out of fear he would be framed.

It might be his after all.

Quote:
“We thought long and hard about demanding a full analysis, but we did not trust the Polizia Scientifica as far as we could spit and were deathly afraid they might choose to construe that the semen was mine. So we held back.”

The purported semen stain is one of those issues the innocentisti argue, when you examine their position carefully, that whatever the results would have been, it could not inculpate Sollecito.

1. The defense lawyers could have requested a test in a timely fashion. By Sollecito’s own admission, they choose not to do so. Why doesn’t Anderson bang on Buongiono about this?

2. The defense choose to wait until they knew it was too late to make their request, in order to make it a press talking point, and nothing more.

3. But had it ever been tested, the results would never had mattered to them: if it was Sollecito, they would scream corruption or planting or incompetence.

Thus these people know very well that they are having their cake and eating it too.
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Offline RumaRämäRomu


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:48 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael wrote:
Ergon wrote:
The YouCaring RS donation site seems to have been taken down.

Great news!!!

Let's hope it's permanent and not simply a temporary take down!

Interesting. I was going to point out (and I still will) a particular page on that site. It is for one of the two people arrested in the so-called Bali suitcase murder, where an 18-year-old young woman and her 21-year-old boyfriend have been arrested and will almost certainly stand trial for the murder of the girl's mother. After the murder she was stuffed in a suitcase and left in the trunk of a taxi. All three were on vacation in Bali. The victim and both suspects are from Chicago.

The boyfriend's mother, from Chicago, has set up a YouCaring page asking for donations for her son, Tommy Schaefer. Ostensibly they are to pay for his lawyer, as well as food and medicine in Bali. I guess his page continues to stand because he has not yet been convicted. The trial date hasn't even been set.

I only bring this up to point out that his fundraising page on YouCaring allows comments. I don't believe the people setting up the page can delete them. The alleged Bali murderer page has loads of negative comments. So if Sollecito's page should come back up, you might want to mosey on over and leave some choice words.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:22 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

RumaRämäRomu wrote:
Michael wrote:
Ergon wrote:
The YouCaring RS donation site seems to have been taken down.

Great news!!!

Let's hope it's permanent and not simply a temporary take down!

Interesting. I was going to point out (and I still will) a particular page on that site. It is for one of the two people arrested in the so-called Bali suitcase murder, where an 18-year-old young woman and her 21-year-old boyfriend have been arrested and will almost certainly stand trial for the murder of the girl's mother. After the murder she was stuffed in a suitcase and left in the trunk of a taxi. All three were on vacation in Bali. The victim and both suspects are from Chicago.

The boyfriend's mother, from Chicago, has set up a YouCaring page asking for donations for her son, Tommy Schaefer. Ostensibly they are to pay for his lawyer, as well as food and medicine in Bali. I guess his page continues to stand because he has not yet been convicted. The trial date hasn't even been set.

I only bring this up to point out that his fundraising page on YouCaring allows comments. I don't believe the people setting up the page can delete them. The alleged Bali murderer page has loads of negative comments. So if Sollecito's page should come back up, you might want to mosey on over and leave some choice words.



Hi RumaRämäRomu. That's good to know :)

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


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Offline RumaRämäRomu


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:33 am   Post subject: Re: HAMBURGER HELPER   

Being anti-Italian has nothing to do with Curt Knox failing to understand the Italian legal system and why his daughter was justly convicted.

But the whole of Italy being anti-American explains everything about her conviction.

Please pass me some Logic Helper, the General Mills packaged argument product. I'm hungry for something with a tasty packet of philosophy sauce.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:33 am   Post subject: Re: HAMBURGER HELPER   

RumaRämäRomu wrote:
Being anti-Italian has nothing to do with Curt Knox failing to understand the Italian legal system and why his daughter was justly convicted.

But the whole of Italy being anti-American explains everything about her conviction.

Please pass me some Logic Helper, the General Mills packaged argument product. I'm hungry for something with a tasty packet of philosophy sauce.



Well, yeah, it's spin doctoring in its purest form. Where everything is turned into a soundbite for the target audience, whereby nobody needs to think, the soundbite is designed to do all that for them. In this case, the soundbites cater to the listeners basest fears regarding foreigners and "other". But, if you tend to follow politics keenly then you'll recognise it as soon as you hear one, since politics lives on the soundbite. The difference with politics though, is that the soundbites have slightly less of an effect because you're getting hit by them from all parties, each attempting to counter the other. In this case though, due to the PR media manipulation, the only soundbites the public were hearing were all coming from one camp and that took a toll on truth. Too many people who didn't really want to put in the effort to think were only too happy to let the soundbites do their thinking for them and the Knoxii were only too happy to take advantage.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline dgfred


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:35 pm   Post subject: Re: HAMBURGER HELPER   

corpusvile wrote:
Ergon wrote:
This is the Hamburger Helper Curt took to Italy, Nell. The best pasta in the world right there in Italy but this is what he preferred.

There's Potato Stroganoff and other flavours too I am told :)


Lol I first heard of Hamburger helper as a kid, as it was mentioned in a film I really liked at the time, the original Fun With Dick & Jane. I thought it was like a McDonald's or something. :lol:[reverso][/reverso]



Y'all laugh (because it is funny what he said), but as the name suggest it is a 'helper' to add to hamburger cooked in a pan.
Since it is only packaged noodles/etc with a powdered flavoring of your choice it is very inexpensive. Great for young couples, college, single parents, etc

Certain ones with well-cooked hamburger/steak/sausage/mushrooms/onions/etc are very tasty ;) .

I know nobody (almost) would take any to Italy for goodness sake. stup-)

Anyway... thought I would let you guys/gals know a few tidbits about HH. is)
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 2:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I wouldn't laugh at Hamburger Helper or those who love it, dgfred, though being Canadian I always was more of a Kraft Dinner type of guy :)


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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 2:14 pm   Post subject: OT POLITICO-CULINARY INTERESTS   

Though with history being made North of Hadrian's Wall (85 % participation, WOW!) a little remembrance for our Scottish friends:


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Offline SqueakEMouse


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 6:03 pm   Post subject: Re: OT POLITICO-CULINARY INTERESTS   

Ergon wrote:
Though with history being made North of Hadrian's Wall (85 % participation, WOW!) a little remembrance for our Scottish friends:



Hadrian's Wall is well into England for most of its length. I hope you are not handing Northumbria to Scotland. Even Cameron didn't try that bribe.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 8:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

A literary device, SqueakE. One country, after all :)

Plus if I used the Antonine Wall, I'd have the Scots mad at me then :)
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 8:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I could mention The Wall Of Severus for geographical allusions come the next Wales referendum, but then I'd have Swansea Jack mad at me too :)
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 1:39 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I hope Peter Van Sant likes the tweet about him:

https://twitter.com/harryrag/status/513139492178644993

Please retweet. Thanks.
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Offline SqueakEMouse


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:15 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
I could mention The Wall Of Severus for geographical allusions come the next Wales referendum, but then I'd have Swansea Jack mad at me too :)



You can't please 'em all. As long as I can walk Hadrian's without Wee Willi Wallace Salmond kicking up a stink.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 12:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Tweet from Andrea Vogt:

Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 41m
#amandaknox case has been assigned to section 5 of Italy's court of cassation. Exact hearing date still to be determined.

_________________
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Offline elisa


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 1:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hello Michael and other Moderators, I am new at your Forum, thnx for the E-Mail. I am member on PMF.org since Febr.14. I am from Switzerland and do not speak English perfect (much less then that). But I understand. That's for my introducing myself a little. Your Forum is also very interesting. Michael, I was first shocked but very agree of your personally opinion about the crime. I think your opinion is the most logical. I always thought similar story but primary I thought about a heavy drug abuse by the perps. and their strange behaviour as a result of post drugs reaction, also I guess both of them /AK + RS/ have been happy believing they are not suspects and that they will get away from it, even maybe being proud how "clever" they acted. AK is a persone who use tu overestimate herself almost into being genuin.
Anyway, I got a lot info's from reading your Forum. By now I have a question - is it good that the Court of Cassazione decided the section 5 - is it that what Bon Giorno wanted?
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 1:58 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael wrote:
Tweet from Andrea Vogt:

Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 41m
#amandaknox case has been assigned to section 5 of Italy's court of cassation. Exact hearing date still to be determined.


Thanks Michael. Good news. :)

LA CORTE SUPREMA DI CASSAZIONE

SEZIONE QUINTA PENALE


Composta dagli Ill.mi Sigg.ri Magistrati:

Dott. OLDI Paolo - Presidente -

Dott. FUMO Maurizio - rel. Consigliere -

Dott. BRUNO Paolo Antonio - Consigliere -

Dott. GUARDIANO Alfredo - Consigliere -

Dott. LIGNOLA Ferdinando - Consigliere -

That was its composition in November 2013/March 2014, according to this website: PENALE.IT I wonder if there are any friends of Bongiorno among those "consiglieri"?
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 5:37 pm   Post subject: Le Corte Suprema di Cassazione   

elisa wrote:
Hello Michael and other Moderators, I am new at your Forum, thnx for the E-Mail. I am member on PMF.org since Febr.14. I am from Switzerland and do not speak English perfect (much less then that). But I understand. That's for my introducing myself a little. Your Forum is also very interesting. Michael, I was first shocked but very agree of your personally opinion about the crime. I think your opinion is the most logical. I always thought similar story but primary I thought about a heavy drug abuse by the perps. and their strange behaviour as a result of post drugs reaction, also I guess both of them /AK + RS/ have been happy believing they are not suspects and that they will get away from it, even maybe being proud how "clever" they acted. AK is a persone who use tu overestimate herself almost into being genuin.
Anyway, I got a lot info's from reading your Forum. By now I have a question - is it good that the Court of Cassazione decided the section 5 - is it that what Bon Giorno wanted?


Hi, elisa and welcome to the forum. Have we spoken before on Twitter? I am @manfromatlan there. Any questions you might have, we'll be glad to answer. "Section 5" is just one of the courts empanelled to hear criminal cases. Last year, it was Prima sezione penale della Cassazione (First Penal Section of the Supreme Court of Italy) that annulled Hellmann's acquittal of Knox and Sollecito and sent them both back to Florence to hear their appeal against their conviction for murder. This time around, it has been referred to the Fifth Criminal Chamber of the Supreme Court for a ruling in the case of Amanda Knox. Note that her attorneys are Ghirga and Delle Vadova, not Bongiorno.

The twist though is this time around, Sollecito has asked for his case to be heard by a different court, Le Sezione Uniti, the Unified Court which deals with conflicting rulings and may direct his case to a different court to resolve those differences. If it agrees with Bongiorno and Luca Maori's request then there may be delays. That's why we haven't heard about his appeal yet. We shall see how that goes.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 5:55 pm   Post subject: Le Corte Suprema di Cassazione   

For a short summary of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito's separate appeals, see Andrea Vogt (Scroll down to June 19, 2014)

Sollecito:

Request: that the sentence be annulled.

Reasons for appeal: 1. Uncertainty of Scientific Evidence 2. Accusatory declarations of Rudy Guede against Sollecito should not be deemed usable/allowed 3. Reasonable Doubt 4. Witness Reliability.

“The trials lacked an adequate review of the “individual” role of Sollecito, generating instead a sense of his guilt due to the “power of attraction” to Amanda and because of her a “confession” made by her, which never mentioned him at the scene of the crime. 1a) That declaration should be used as a favourable element showing Sollecito was not at the scene of the crime, not as a piece of evidence that confirms his guilt. 1b) the DNA on the bra clasp is not reliable 3c) Request that findings by Vecchiotti and Conti be considered valid, including arguments that show an unreliability of the affirmations of forensic Police Biologist Patrizia Stefanoni, and specifically that the appeals court “illogically excluded the possibility of contamination of the bra clasp (p.317)

The appeal focuses heavily on the role of Rudy Guede, and which of his statements and depositions should have been legally allowed as evidence against Sollecito. Sollecito’s lawyers also make the argument that since a number of Guede’s statements were used against him, his lawyers should have had the right to a proper cross examination of Guede (in this part of the appeal, p 298, the three other European cases are cited: Kostecki v. Poland and Al-Khawaka and Tahery vs. UK and Yevgeniy Ivanov v. Russia)

However there is also the argument that Knox and Sollecito’s positions should have been separated. As an example, on page 64, cites Giulia Bongiorno’s reading of Knox’s statements to police, noting that Knox repeatedly says “I.” The appeal argues that Knox’s declaration to police at 1:45 a.m. should be usable by the Sollecito defense as an element of proof that he was not present. Specifically, there is attention drawn to the subject-verb agreement and the fact that Knox repeatedly speaks in the singular form: “I see Patrick” and “I heard Meredith scream.”

“Not even in the most dramatic phrase of the night between November 5 and 6 did Knox ever maintain that Sollecito was perhaps with her in Via della Pergola.” (p74-76)

That these statements could not be used as a defensive element by Sollecito is “the first and most relevant error committed by the court.” (p75)

The appeal also argues that Knox furnished Sollecito with an alibi when she said she left the house, telling her boyfriend she had to go to work, leaving Sollecito alone at home. And even if the court were to believe the strategy that Knox “exchanged one black man for another,” by blaming Lumumba when it was Guede at the scene, that still excludes Sollecito from responsibility. (p.76)

In conclusion, the appeal also notes that the range of the aggression against Kercher was between 21-22 and that Sollecito’s Macbook Pro shows that at 21:26 a multimedia cartoon “Naruto” was opened,which lasted 20 minutes, shows it was impossible that he was involved in the crime.


Knox:

Request: Ricorso for 1) questions of constitutional legitimacy and 2) 11 reasons related to contradictions, illogic and deficiencies

Laws/reasons cited: Violation of Art. 606, B, E for contradictions, deficiencies and illogic in the reasoning, specifically:

1. lack of a motive.

2. merits of forensic science.

3. relation of the slander conviction with the homicide conviction.

4. mode of entrance into Via della Pergola and the footprint evidence.

5. Alibi and witness testimony of Curatolo and Quintavalle

6. Violation of observance of laws with regard to Art. 606, C with regard to documentation that had been declared not allowable for use in court.

7. Violation of observance of laws with regard to Art. 606, C with regard to allowing the sentence of Rudy Guede to be considered as evidence without the possibility of thorough cross examination.

8. Violation of Art. 606. with relation to Constitutional Art. 111, 2 and 238, for not allowing thorough cross examination of Rudy Guede, after he affirmed accusations against Knox and Sollecito in the first appeal.

9. Violation of 606, B, E, for using inexistent evidence (this refers to Nencini material error on page 321 when he discusses DNA of Sollecito found on the knife — Sollecito’s DNA was never found on the knife).

10. Violation of 606, E, B, with regard to ordinances that regulate court debate/ arguments, with specific reference to Sept. 30 (question of constitutionality) and April 17 (a clerical/material error stating Amanda Knox was born in Seattle, not in Washington).

11. Violation of 606, B: with regard to the sentence, since the slander charge is contested.

“This defense asks that the court rectify a grave judicial error, which includes the court of appeals, so as to permit the defendant Amanda Knox to re-initiate a normal and constructive life. ” pg. 115
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 6:44 pm   Post subject: Re: Le Corte Suprema di Cassazione   

Ergon wrote:
This time around, it has been referred to the Fifth Criminal Chamber of the Supreme Court for a ruling in the case of Amanda Knox.

The twist though is this time around, Sollecito has asked for his case to be heard by a different court, Le Sezione Uniti, the Unified Court which deals with conflicting rulings and may direct his case to a different court to resolve those differences. If it agrees with Bongiorno and Luca Maori's request then there may be delays. That's why we haven't heard about his appeal yet. We shall see how that goes.



Thanks for your clarification, Ergon. I assumed Knox and Sollecito's appeals would be heard together again. Looks like their cases will be considered separately. If so, an interesting new twist in their long legal saga.
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Offline malvern


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 8:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Does anyone know if they are planning on attending? Will Amanda try to make up for the debacle of her letter to the last court? I heard little about her appearance in Perugia last week or if she'll return Nov 15.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 9:23 pm   Post subject: Le Corte di Suprema Cassazione   

Andrea Vogt has clarified her earlier tweet:

Quote:
Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt · 3h
@cate69 my understanding is that both amanda knox and raffaele sollecito’s cases/convictions will be reviewed in Section 5.


Which is good news indeed, that #RaffaeleSollecito's request to be heard before United Sections (Sezioni Unite) which is composed of a full nine judge panel has not been allowed, but will be heard alongside #AmandaKnox with a 5 judge panel.
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Offline jaybee51


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 9:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

malvern wrote:
........ I heard little about her appearance in Perugia last week or if she'll return Nov 15.


huh-) WHAT! Was Amanda in Perugia last week?
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Never was there AFAIK, jaybee51. That was a rumour on Twitter from just one user, CharlotteBroChurch.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 11:54 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

There doesn't seem to be anything in Sollecito's appeal that is even remotely interesting. They complain about the 'relation of the slander conviction with the homicide conviction' but yet they want to use Knox's statements as evidence that he wasn't with her. That is not even right by the way. Knox did mention that she wasn't sure if Sollecito was with her or not, but this seems strange since she clearly remembers ending up in his bed.

Quote:
I am not sure if Raffaele was there as well that night but I clearly remember that I woke up at my boyfriend's home, in his bed

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/A ... _Statement

They really think they can win a Supreme Court appeal because Nencini made a typing error?
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:49 pm   Post subject: Le Corte Suprema di Cassazione   

I was there, ;) max, and there would be nothing more entertaining than seeing, once again, Giulia Bongiorno trying to restrain her inner Screech :) while Rabitting on :) about malfunctioning DNA tests, "case closed", (that was Luca Maori last time) and now, bringing a typo to the attention of the 5 judges on the court's panel.
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 6:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I hope Saul Kassin likes the tweet about him:

https://twitter.com/harryrag/status/513752687918452736

Please retweet. Thanks.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 7:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Done, TM.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 7:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Courtesy of Piktor at ORG. Image
You should check out his hummingbird pictures, jar's watercolours, mimi's cartoons. We have quite a wealth of talent in our community.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 1:08 pm   Post subject: THE CONSTITUTIONAL COURT OF ITALY   

Of interest, but not related to the case, Corte costituzionale della Repubblica Italiana

Quote:
The Constitutional Court of Italy (Italian: Corte costituzionale della Repubblica Italiana) is a supreme court of Italy, the other being the Court of Cassation. Sometimes, the name Consulta is used as a metonym for it, because its sessions are held in Palazzo della Consulta in Rome.

According to Article 134[1] of the Constitution, the Court shall pass judgement on
controversies on the constitutional legitimacy of laws issued by the State and Regions, under the conditions established by the Constitutional Law, and when the Court declares a law unconstitutional, the law ceases to have effect the day after the publication of the ruling;
conflicts arising from allocation of powers of the State and those powers allocated to State and Regions, and between Regions;
charges brought against the President.

The Constitutional Court is composed of 15 judges for the term of service of nine years: 5 appointed by the President, 5 elected by the Parliament of Italy, and 5 elected by the ordinary and administrative supreme courts. The members then elect the President of the Court, since 19 September 2013 Gaetano Silvestri, from among its members in a secret ballot, by an absolute majority (8 votes in the case of a full court). If no person gets that many votes, a runoff election between the two judges with the most votes occurs. One or two vice-presidents, appointed by the President of the Court, stand in for the president in the event of his absence for any reason. The constitutional court passes on the constitutionality of laws with no right of appeal.

The court is a post-World War II innovation. Since 12 October 2007, when reform of the Italian intelligence agencies approved in August 2007 came into force, the pretext of state secret cannot be used to deny access to documents by the Court.


So many ways in which Italy is ahead of the rest of us.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 3:19 pm   Post subject: LE CORTE SUPREMA DI CASSAZIONE   

It really is sad to see the Google translators and Google researchers at IIP still under the impression that the 5th section of the Supreme Court might refer the case back to Sezione Uniti "for a full panel of 9 judges to hear the case". Instead of asking Luca Cheli they could head over to ORG and read what Popper has to say?

Quote:
Hi
There is no Section 9
Only Section 1 to 7 ( first to seventh is the proper way to say it) plus the Sezione Feriale (a special section during the holidays).

Cases are assigned to a Section that will then choose a certain panel of 5 rotating judges (incl. president judge and relatore, the judge who will present the case).

Certain cases can also be assigned to the "Sezioni Unite", United Sections, the panel will be 9 judges coming from all the sections (maybe this is the 9 that was misunderstood), this is the reason of the name Sezioni Unite, it is like a grand council.

Sections have certain specialisations, cases coming from courts of assizes or courts of assizes of appeal (like homicides) are more frequently heard by first and fifth Section.


Quote:
I repeat, there is no Ninth Section. It does not exist.

All the sections of the Supreme Court of Cassazione treat only matters of law and procedure so getting the case examined from a panel of judges of one of the sections or from the panel of the United Sections does not make a great difference. Cases are assigned to United Sections in case of a particularly difficult interpretation of law (quite rare really).

Length of trial depends on the defendants' appeals, without those appeals case would have been over since 09.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 3:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

September 21, 2014
Rudy wants to go free, asked for "super discount" on penalty
By Alessandro Antonini

Imperfect Google translation:

Rudy wants early release. He demands a super cut of [discount on] the sentence. The only one to be behind bars for the murder of Meredith Kercher intends to quit before the end of his sentence of 16 years and is doing everything possible to get the discounts provided by the new rule - 'empty prisons'. In case of "no" of the supervising judge to an additional "discount", from his cell in Mammagialla of Viterbo [he] takes pen and paper to instruct his lawyers to file complaints and legal obligations. Result: the surveillance court of Rome fixed the hearing in closed session for October 10.

On one hand, in fact they have welcomed another 45 days less than the period that has been inflicted by the Assize Court of Appeal in the process expedited December 22 of 2009, however, the same judge notes that "the demand for integration [additional discount of 30 days every six months] can not be granted because he is currently serving the sentence imposed for the offense referred to in Article 4a of the Code (Act 354 of 1975)".

Rudy's lawyers, Nicodemo Gentile and Antonio Cozza, attack on several fronts. "If the ordinary [discount] - the lawyers argue in the appeal of the Ivorian - a peaceful measure is aimed at all those convicted, applying for an early release, it is unlawful, unreasonable and discriminatory introducing insurmountable exclusions for those convicted of offenses which would preclude the possibility to benefit from an early release regarding special [discount] of 75 days and / or integration of 30 days every six months in respect of which the offender has already obtained the deduction under Article 54." The survey that aims to become a school case and a legal precedent, while also having another objection: all tied up with the times.

A petition for an early release, and both ordinary and special [discounts], Guede presented in the first days of January 2014 (registered on February 12, 2014), which applied the decree of 23 December 2013, which allowed the deduction of the 75 days plus another 30 days of integration in periods where it had already been granted early release for the offenses referred to in Article 4a before the changes then in the opposite direction of the Law 10 of 21 February 2014. According to Gentile and Cozza, the surveillance court would have had all the time [between February 12 and February 21?] to grant the discount before the new standard/rule/law was introduced.


CORRIERE DELL'UMBRIA
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Re-post from .org

Jools' translation of an article published today in Corriere dell'Umbria:
http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewto ... 23#p175423
------------------------------------------------------------------------

September 22, 2014
Meredith, Guede’s lawyer: “Rudy free within 3 years”
By Alessandro Antonini

“As it is Rudy could have the time off benefit permits and if the early-release days were approved for each semester plus other benefits [i.e. good behavior] in three or four years he could be out permanently.”

Lawyer Nicodemo Gentile is confident that the defense trial strategy of Rudy Guede and the applications taken during incarceration on the basis of through “re-education” followed by their client will be successful. Bringing in fact to almost halve his penal punishment. Rudi Hermann Guede, who opted for the Fast-Track trial, was convicted for complicity of murder and sexual assault by Supreme Court judgment of December 16 2010. Sixteen years in prison. Which could become half if he is out in 2017, according to Gentile [his lawyer’s] conjectures.

To this date, Rudy is the only one paying for the horrendous murder of Meredith Kercher (1 November 2007), despite having been convicted of “complicity” in the murder and sexual assault. In fact, the case file shows how he would not have been the main perpetrator of the murder, that is the one that slashed with the knife the throat of the British student. Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito after the annulment by the Supreme Court of [Hellmann’s] verdict, that set them free, are still facing the trial process.

Rudy now fights to get all the sentence discount days allowed by law. In case of negative response from the surveillance judge he has an additional “discount”, from his jail cell at Mammagialla of Viterbo prison he has instructed his lawyers to file claims and legal obligations. Result: the Surveillance Court of Rome fixed the hearing date in closed chambers for October 10.

On one hand, in effect another 45 days less were admitted, in respect of the period given by the Assize Court of Appeal, on the other hand the additional 30 days every six months have been denied. Which would have meant two months a year.

According to his lawyers it is “unlawful, unreasonable as well as discriminatory to introduce insurmountable preclusions for those condemned to prohibitive condition.”


CORRIERE DELL'UMBRIA
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Offline SqueakEMouse


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:57 pm   Post subject: Re: THE CONSTITUTIONAL COURT OF ITALY   

Ergon wrote:
So many ways in which Italy is ahead of the rest of us.


Not that many Ergon. This crime took place seven years ago and the culprits were caught pretty quickly. But for seven years the case has tortuously wound its way round the labyrinthine justice system with still more to come. During that time, the victim's family receive no closure and must endlessly fork out more money in expenses. Add to that the insult that the perpetrators are meanwhile free to swan around and court both publicity and money. This is a system so obsessed by procedure that it has lost touch with what justice should be about. Even the trial procedures are designed to make life as difficult for the victims and their families as possible; the ludicrous habit of having the trial split over many sessions over many months instead of a constant trial that proceeds day after day until a conclusion is reached. The inevitable result is the procedural games played by defences and regular adjournments for weeks or months. The farce of the Hellman court was partly made possible by the remoteness of evidence from those making the appeal judgement, leaving Hellman and his sidekick able to play with the rules and influence the decisions of the other judges.

This ridiculous carousel of delays, judgements and appeals, coupled with rigid statutes of limitations leads to regular farces where either no prosecution can be made or the result of the lengthy and expensive trial procedure is itself a joke. The David Mills fiasco is an international joke. Even the system acknowledges this fault; the fast track trial gives an automatic reduction for anybody willing to forgo wasting everybody's time for years on end. The whole judicial system is clogged for years with appeals swinging one way and another. The malicious prosecution against Mignini is another example of how the system can be used to make mischief by those who can initiate proceedings, warranted or not. Ultimately, that one failed but against somebody less senior it could have been an effective way to warn off an investigator or disrupt his career. It should not have taken a period of years to dispose of.

The second major failing is the focus on perpetrator rehabilitation which has simply become leniency to the point of insult to the victims. We may possibly see Guede, a man convicted of taking part in the sexual assault and savage murder of a young woman free after eight years despite never having accepted full responsibility for his actions or told the truth about events. Free to argue his side via the media versus the versions put out by his co-convicted before they even finish their conviction (and for AK extradition) processes. Their final tally in prison will be longer but nothing like life sentences despite the sickening gravity of their crimes. Had they swallowed their pride and faced the fact that getting off totally scot free was unlikely, they too could have had that massive reduction. Prison conditions themselves are relaxed. Perhaps not as notorious as some Norwegian attitudes to rehabilitation but not far off. Certainly Knox will be far better off in an Italian jail than in an American one. So much so that applying to serve her sentence at home may not be a great idea.

None of this is new and many Italians want the system changed. Far from being an enviable system or a beacon of light to the rest of the world, it is in fact one in terrible need of wholesale reform.
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Offline malvern


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

There is an interesting exchange on RS's FB between Stu/Bill and Frank! Vanessa pitta brings up R's words that Amanda went out. Frank tries to pin R down to the time of evening around 8" Bill answers for R and gets told off by his good friend Frank. Important too to see the threats of withdrawing funds to R by FOAKers if he keeps up this strategy etc .RS remains silent and won't give Frank the time he wants for Amanda's departure.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 10:07 pm   Post subject: LE CORTE SUPREMA DI CASSAZIONE   

Sigh. IIP still looking for information on Sezione Unite to see if section 5 can refer the case back to them. Our Canadian reverend Bill Williams who Googles well but doesn't always read suggests this might help.

Unfortunately, it's a treatise on reforms before the court to reduce the number of appeals and warns about losing parties that might find conflicting case precedents and then referring it to Sezione Unite for resolution, thus increasing the court's work load.

Some people don't understand irony, until they shoot themselves in the foot :)
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 10:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

malvern wrote:
There is an interesting exchange on RS's FB between Stu/Bill and Frank! Vanessa pitta brings up R's words that Amanda went out. Frank tries to pin R down to the time of evening around 8" Bill answers for R and gets told off by his good friend Frank. Important too to see the threats of withdrawing funds to R by FOAKers if he keeps up this strategy etc .RS remains silent and won't give Frank the time he wants for Amanda's departure.


Thanks malvern. Here's the link to their exchange:

https://www.facebook.com/raffa.sollecito/posts/524869004314046

Knox hasn't posted anything new on her Blog in the last 3 months, i.e. since June!

Earlier today TM posted @ .org this tweet by Linda Byron:

Quote:
"Amanda Knox, now a UW grad, writes in October issue of @SeattleMet about work being done by NW chapter of The Innocence Project."


https://twitter.com/LByronK5/status/513845131045117953

SeattleMet Magazine's website:

http://www.seattlemet.com/
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 10:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

malvern wrote:
There is an interesting exchange on RS's FB between Stu/Bill and Frank! Vanessa pitta brings up R's words that Amanda went out. Frank tries to pin R down to the time of evening around 8" Bill answers for R and gets told off by his good friend Frank. Important too to see the threats of withdrawing funds to R by FOAKers if he keeps up this strategy etc .RS remains silent and won't give Frank the time he wants for Amanda's departure.


Can't tell who Stu Lyster/Bill Williams is talking to, Malvern. Source Is that Vanessa Pitta? She says her name's Vanessa Pittarello. Maybe Frank's honking or tweeting at him off screen? Interesting to see someone call ol Bill names :)
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Offline malvern


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 1:49 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Yes it's Vanessa Pitta who is fed up with Foakers calling her R's sister or even Greta. She makes it clear she believes in R but thinks he helped Amanda in some way cover her crime. Frank can't get R to clear up the time of Amanda's departure and was annoyed at Bill for speaking for him. A flat out request from Frank for clarification was ignored by RS who sending other tweets at the time.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 3:38 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Frank Sfarzo did try to threaten RS via Twitter but I don't think the Sollecitos take him too seriously now. The Americans are whining how they can't 'support' him any more, LOL.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 7:43 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

malvern wrote:
Yes it's Vanessa Pitta who is fed up with Foakers calling her R's sister or even Greta. She makes it clear she believes in R but thinks he helped Amanda in some way cover her crime. Frank can't get R to clear up the time of Amanda's departure and was annoyed at Bill for speaking for him. A flat out request from Frank for clarification was ignored by RS who sending other tweets at the time.

RS held a press conference to clarify the matter. Now he needs to clarify his clarification? What a joke :mrgreen:
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Offline corpusvile


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 8:55 am   Post subject: Re: THE CONSTITUTIONAL COURT OF ITALY   

SqueakEMouse wrote:
Ergon wrote:
So many ways in which Italy is ahead of the rest of us.


Not that many Ergon. This crime took place seven years ago and the culprits were caught pretty quickly. But for seven years the case has tortuously wound its way round the labyrinthine justice system with still more to come. During that time, the victim's family receive no closure and must endlessly fork out more money in expenses. Add to that the insult that the perpetrators are meanwhile free to swan around and court both publicity and money. This is a system so obsessed by procedure that it has lost touch with what justice should be about. Even the trial procedures are designed to make life as difficult for the victims and their families as possible; the ludicrous habit of having the trial split over many sessions over many months instead of a constant trial that proceeds day after day until a conclusion is reached. The inevitable result is the procedural games played by defences and regular adjournments for weeks or months. The farce of the Hellman court was partly made possible by the remoteness of evidence from those making the appeal judgement, leaving Hellman and his sidekick able to play with the rules and influence the decisions of the other judges.

This ridiculous carousel of delays, judgements and appeals, coupled with rigid statutes of limitations leads to regular farces where either no prosecution can be made or the result of the lengthy and expensive trial procedure is itself a joke. The David Mills fiasco is an international joke. Even the system acknowledges this fault; the fast track trial gives an automatic reduction for anybody willing to forgo wasting everybody's time for years on end. The whole judicial system is clogged for years with appeals swinging one way and another. The malicious prosecution against Mignini is another example of how the system can be used to make mischief by those who can initiate proceedings, warranted or not. Ultimately, that one failed but against somebody less senior it could have been an effective way to warn off an investigator or disrupt his career. It should not have taken a period of years to dispose of.

The second major failing is the focus on perpetrator rehabilitation which has simply become leniency to the point of insult to the victims. We may possibly see Guede, a man convicted of taking part in the sexual assault and savage murder of a young woman free after eight years despite never having accepted full responsibility for his actions or told the truth about events. Free to argue his side via the media versus the versions put out by his co-convicted before they even finish their conviction (and for AK extradition) processes. Their final tally in prison will be longer but nothing like life sentences despite the sickening gravity of their crimes. Had they swallowed their pride and faced the fact that getting off totally scot free was unlikely, they too could have had that massive reduction. Prison conditions themselves are relaxed. Perhaps not as notorious as some Norwegian attitudes to rehabilitation but not far off. Certainly Knox will be far better off in an Italian jail than in an American one. So much so that applying to serve her sentence at home may not be a great idea.

None of this is new and many Italians want the system changed. Far from being an enviable system or a beacon of light to the rest of the world, it is in fact one in terrible need of wholesale reform.


I have to agree with pretty much all of this. This case- and by extension the Kercher's pain- has gone on for far too long. It's a disgrace that Guede had the option of a process which gave such a reduction in his sentence & seven years is a ridiculous amount of time to conduct a murder case. Both would be well into their sentences in my country and a murder conviction would have gotten them a mandatory life sentence btw. Guede should not even be considered for any form of release or parole. Their statute of limitations has led to the likes of Spezi not facing justice for his alleged crimes for example and the fact that Knox and Sollecito are still walking the streets is an obscenity for me & I can only imagine how it is for the Kercher family. I'm all for due process but the Italians take it too far imo and serious reforms do indeed need to be made to its system if they have any empathy for the victims and victims families of such brutal crimes.
They are far too pro rehabilitation as well imo, having released the likes of Erika de Nardo for a particularly vicious double murder, one of her victims being a child and have even released serial killers such as Wolfgang Abel & Marco Furlan.
Seven years of pissing about is NOT justice.
Again, I pretty much agree with all of your points and I hope Italy does reform its system as it seems to give the victim's a secondary place in their process.
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 9:27 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

guermantes wrote:
--- snip ---

Knox hasn't posted anything new on her Blog in the last 3 months, i.e. since June!

--- snap ---



Since the day Raffaele Sollecito announced his press conference to clarify his separation strategy she has remained mostly quiet. No new blog articles, not one tweet.

She did publish a threat to Raffaele Sollecito in an online comment section which she later deleted from her profile.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 10:35 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

NEWS FIT TO PRINT

Knox to send Tweet to Supreme Court

Court to go on for 100 years for the sake of intellectual posing.

Jules Seaseher: Oh yes, we must make sure, the first judge who died 25 years ago said from the grave, kindly translated by a medium, I did find them guilty yes, but we must allow every opportunist there is to make a little extra on the side and have a day out, how else could they pay for their children's educations and their wonderful holidays?

_________________
Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
Ignorance of the law is no excuse
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 11:26 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

We can blame Giulia Bongiorno and judge Hellman for the delays. Sure the Italian system could do with some change, but I trust they will do justice for the Kerchers. It's the "experts" who did the most harm, not Italy.
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Offline dgfred


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 1:24 pm   Post subject: Re: THE CONSTITUTIONAL COURT OF ITALY   

corpusvile wrote:
SqueakEMouse wrote:
Ergon wrote:
So many ways in which Italy is ahead of the rest of us.


Not that many Ergon. This crime took place seven years ago and the culprits were caught pretty quickly. But for seven years the case has tortuously wound its way round the labyrinthine justice system with still more to come. During that time, the victim's family receive no closure and must endlessly fork out more money in expenses. Add to that the insult that the perpetrators are meanwhile free to swan around and court both publicity and money. This is a system so obsessed by procedure that it has lost touch with what justice should be about. Even the trial procedures are designed to make life as difficult for the victims and their families as possible; the ludicrous habit of having the trial split over many sessions over many months instead of a constant trial that proceeds day after day until a conclusion is reached. The inevitable result is the procedural games played by defences and regular adjournments for weeks or months. The farce of the Hellman court was partly made possible by the remoteness of evidence from those making the appeal judgement, leaving Hellman and his sidekick able to play with the rules and influence the decisions of the other judges.

This ridiculous carousel of delays, judgements and appeals, coupled with rigid statutes of limitations leads to regular farces where either no prosecution can be made or the result of the lengthy and expensive trial procedure is itself a joke. The David Mills fiasco is an international joke. Even the system acknowledges this fault; the fast track trial gives an automatic reduction for anybody willing to forgo wasting everybody's time for years on end. The whole judicial system is clogged for years with appeals swinging one way and another. The malicious prosecution against Mignini is another example of how the system can be used to make mischief by those who can initiate proceedings, warranted or not. Ultimately, that one failed but against somebody less senior it could have been an effective way to warn off an investigator or disrupt his career. It should not have taken a period of years to dispose of.

The second major failing is the focus on perpetrator rehabilitation which has simply become leniency to the point of insult to the victims. We may possibly see Guede, a man convicted of taking part in the sexual assault and savage murder of a young woman free after eight years despite never having accepted full responsibility for his actions or told the truth about events. Free to argue his side via the media versus the versions put out by his co-convicted before they even finish their conviction (and for AK extradition) processes. Their final tally in prison will be longer but nothing like life sentences despite the sickening gravity of their crimes. Had they swallowed their pride and faced the fact that getting off totally scot free was unlikely, they too could have had that massive reduction. Prison conditions themselves are relaxed. Perhaps not as notorious as some Norwegian attitudes to rehabilitation but not far off. Certainly Knox will be far better off in an Italian jail than in an American one. So much so that applying to serve her sentence at home may not be a great idea.

None of this is new and many Italians want the system changed. Far from being an enviable system or a beacon of light to the rest of the world, it is in fact one in terrible need of wholesale reform.


I have to agree with pretty much all of this. This case- and by extension the Kercher's pain- has gone on for far too long. It's a disgrace that Guede had the option of a process which gave such a reduction in his sentence & seven years is a ridiculous amount of time to conduct a murder case. Both would be well into their sentences in my country and a murder conviction would have gotten them a mandatory life sentence btw. Guede should not even be considered for any form of release or parole. Their statute of limitations has led to the likes of Spezi not facing justice for his alleged crimes for example and the fact that Knox and Sollecito are still walking the streets is an obscenity for me & I can only imagine how it is for the Kercher family. I'm all for due process but the Italians take it too far imo and serious reforms do indeed need to be made to its system if they have any empathy for the victims and victims families of such brutal crimes.
They are far too pro rehabilitation as well imo, having released the likes of Erika de Nardo for a particularly vicious double murder, one of her victims being a child and have even released serial killers such as Wolfgang Abel & Marco Furlan.
Seven years of pissing about is NOT justice.
Again, I pretty much agree with all of your points and I hope Italy does reform its system as it seems to give the victim's a secondary place in their process.


Well, IMO every system has some suckiness to it. It takes just as long in the US.
You even have instances where murderers get off by giving up info on their accomplice(s).

My real problem was AK being able to leave the country. If they both remained in jail when the final verdict does happen... they would have all this time served.
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Offline dgfred


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 1:47 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
malvern wrote:
There is an interesting exchange on RS's FB between Stu/Bill and Frank! Vanessa pitta brings up R's words that Amanda went out. Frank tries to pin R down to the time of evening around 8" Bill answers for R and gets told off by his good friend Frank. Important too to see the threats of withdrawing funds to R by FOAKers if he keeps up this strategy etc .RS remains silent and won't give Frank the time he wants for Amanda's departure.


Can't tell who Stu Lyster/Bill Williams is talking to, Malvern. Source Is that Vanessa Pitta? She says her name's Vanessa Pittarello. Maybe Frank's honking or tweeting at him off screen? Interesting to see someone call ol Bill names :)


Haha... the gloves are definately coming off. Wild Bill trying both to cover for RS and get AK out of the stink he threw her in. ih)

That is one question ol RS can not answer... no way, no how. Dodgeball anyone?
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Offline corpusvile


Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 5:38 pm

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 1:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I'm aware that no system is perfect & each system has their flaws & virtues, but I don't know of any murder cases that have take seven years to reach a conclusion in the US, although if there has been then I'll stand corrected.
I simply think that such a process shouldn't take so long and that the sentence should fit the gravity of the crime.
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Offline dgfred


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Depends on what you call a conclusion but I will look for a few and list if you like.

Just recently I have been in debates concerning Brad Cooper and Jason Young here in NC.
BC just took a plea deal and JY is going to be re-tried (again).
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Funny point about Amanda Knox being allowed to leave the country. She paints a picture of a night time drive to Rome, a safe house, Steve Moore riding shotgun. In fact they were all holed up in David Anderson's B & B, then left to go straight to the airport. Flight paid for by ABC.

It took RS running to Austria before the Nencini court ruled that prompted the Italians to finally impound his passport.
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Offline corpusvile


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 3:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

dgfred wrote:
Depends on what you call a conclusion but I will look for a few and list if you like.

Just recently I have been in debates concerning Brad Cooper and Jason Young here in NC.
BC just took a plea deal and JY is going to be re-tried (again).


The only one I can think of off the top of my head is the Charles Ng case which took years but that was only because he spent years fighting extradition from Canada. The trial itself didn't go on for seven years though. I haven't heard of the Cooper/Young case but will look into it, thanks. If you know of any cases in the US that have taken as long as Knox's I wouldn't mind hearing about them, cheers. ;)
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Offline dgfred


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 3:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Like Jeffrey MacDonald... the victims family still is putting up with appeal pleas/etc

If even 1 goes thru there would be a re-trial or possibly the convicted getting earlier release.

How about the Martha Moxley murder? That guy is still trying to manipulate the system.
Expensive lawyer was negligent, other suspects not looked at by cops, etc.

The trial for the Day Care case (forget the name) actually went on for like 3 years.

The trial has not been 7 years IMO... it is all the appeals and counter-appeals.
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 5:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Selene has written a brilliant article about the PR spin for Elite Daily:

http://elitedaily.com/news/world/the-me ... se/764282/

Please tweet and retweet. Thanks.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 8:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Yes in general though, the legal processes in Italy appear to be way longer than, let's say processes in Britain.

I think the automatic, or more or less automatic granting of appeals is not a good thing, since it seems to allow defendants to come up with pretty much any old thing, it may be nonsense but it then has to be given a run, the grounds required for lodging an appeal are allowed to be far too weak and wishy washy.

The only place Sollecito should gave been allowed to run away to in Switzerland, was digitas.

I really cannot imagine how these people wouldn't be awash with fear, like when waking up from a nightmare, where ordinarily it is just that, a nightmare, but when you actually did murder someone and are hiding it all, to maybe even your own family and those closest to you, it must be beyond a nightmare.

Everything is definitely not all bowls and vases filled with roses in Italy just because this murder took place in Italy and some engage in the us and them story, the us and them idea doesn't make everything in Italy perfect.
This saving the country time and money by opting for the abbreviated process is all wrong too in my opinion, Guede should have been given his 25 to 30 and basta, did he really save the state so much?

Nar, he didn't, don't think so, it costs the State more when they let a murderer and rapist out after a slap on the wrist, how will they know whether or not the first thing he will do is to rape some poor girl or woman within a few days of release?

The other two, they seem irredeemable, based on their actions there is no way they should have been shown any leniency at all, they should have been given life, to mean EXACTLY, that, life without parole

What kind of rat rapes and murders then goes collecting money from the public?

Sollecito, that's the kind. Knox likewise all in her own style and equally trash.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 9:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
We can blame Giulia Bongiorno and judge Hellman for the delays. Sure the Italian system could do with some change, but I trust they will do justice for the Kerchers. It's the "experts" who did the most harm, not Italy.



The delays are designed into the system and are notorious, as are the failures to deliver justice because of them. Consider the farce of the David Mills trial. Berlusconi's UK lawyer, husband of Labour minister Tessa Jowell, spending years busily setting up offshore trusts and opague deals for Berlusconi. Investigated for money laundering, corruption and bribery on the back of the Berlusconi corruption allegations, Mills admitted to prosecutors that he had received around half a million from Berlusconi as a back hander (sorry, 'gift'). Finding that this helpful statement to prosecutors just got him into more trouble (sound familiar?) he suddenly remembered that he hadn't received it from Berlusconi after all but rather from a pal of his. (Happens all the time. Difficult to remember who gave you a half a mill when things are busy) He had just said it was from good old Silvio because he was afraid the Inland Revenue might accuse him of tax dodging. He thought saying it was from Silvio would sound better. Does that story make any sense? No. in fact it raises a few smiles. In fact it's hard to picture Mills himself managing to say it with a straight face.

After five years of legal wrangling and a four and a half year jail sentence, the case finally reaches Cassation. There it ends because (you guessed it) the statute of limitations had run out causing the case to be dismissed. So officially at least, the money really did come from Mills' pal and all Italy could do was slap him a fine for damaging the reputation of the office of the Prime Minister. That's the funniest part. The prosecutors set out to get an accomplice of Berlusconi and through him the man himself. They ended up defending Berlusconi's reputation by making Mills the only person ever to be fined for calling Silvio a crook. After five years of taxpayer funded legal stupidities, Mills walked away with just a big grin and a fine for taking the piss. A fine which will just be a deduction from the profits from the enterprise.

But perhaps nothing beats the sheer lunacy of the Trevisan art theft trials. Art dealer Trevisan was accused of stealing (or at least handling stolen goods) to the tune of a painting, by a businessman who claimed it had been stolen from his home some years earlier. The legal case got batted around for TWELVE years! (With the usual win some, lose some results of trial and appeal) The painting was locked up by police in the meantime. By this point both parties had died of old age. The court case continues! It hasn't quite got to Cassation yet but the estates of both gentlemen will probably want to see the race run its course. Cassation will be ruling on which of these two deceased gentlemen was the rightful owner of the painting that neither had seen for twelve years. Even Kafka couldn't make that one up. Imagine the reading of the will scene.... 'To my eldest son, I leave my outstanding court cases...'

What's that saying? Justice delayed is justice denied? Something like that. Well, justice dragging its feet until abandoned due to statutes of limitations or else carried to infinity in a legal Gordian Knot is also justice denied. Whether the Kerchers will see justice remains to be seen. None of the three participants has much motive now to tell the real truth, only to shift the blame to the others.

Postscrpt edit: Cynics at the time suggested that Mills and Jowell's split was about protecting the financial assets from Italian prosecutors as much as protecting her political reputation. I wonder if AK's crowd will hire him. He is a lawyer with Italian 'experience' after all. Ditch Ted, get Dave. Now it's all over, David and Tessa have managed to reconcile. (Just as the cynics predicted) Isn't that sweet. Blair's Babes concerned only with money and personal advancement?? Surely not!! Tony would be SHOCKED! Shocked and APPALLED! But I guess his busy schedule keeping peace in the middle east as the quartet envoy from a billionaire's yacht in the Caribbean will leave him little time to find out.


Last edited by SqueakEMouse on Tue Sep 23, 2014 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline corpusvile


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 11:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

dgfred wrote:
Like Jeffrey MacDonald... the victims family still is putting up with appeal pleas/etc

If even 1 goes thru there would be a re-trial or possibly the convicted getting earlier release.

How about the Martha Moxley murder? That guy is still trying to manipulate the system.
Expensive lawyer was negligent, other suspects not looked at by cops, etc.

The trial for the Day Care case (forget the name) actually went on for like 3 years.

The trial has not been 7 years IMO... it is all the appeals and counter-appeals.


Well, the actual verdict itself hasn't been finalized- despite their convictions & their convictions being upheld- until Cassation rules, so in essence it is one long trial imo as they have an automatic right to an appeal.
That said, I've looked into the Young case since we spoke and realise it's being going on in one form or another for eight years now and Young was originally convicted five years after his wife's murder, so I stand corrected, I guess.
Cheers.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 11:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

OT: Sure, but first, let's get Bush and Blair to the war crimes tribunal, not allow ANY country to exempt itself from ICJ jurisdiction, find out how Dr. David Kelly died, let poor Julian Assange leave the Equadorian embassy and go into exile, ask the McCanns some uncomfortable questions, and wonder how come Jimmy Saville and all the other Whitehall pedophiles got away with it so long, and, before we blame the Italian judiciary for the delays, ask how much political interference was coming from Berlusconi, Rocco Girlanda, and Giulia Bongiorno, who just happened to head the parliamentary judiciary committee. We don't even know if there were some back door winks and nods from John Kerry to his brother in law the ambassador to Rome and their Italian counterparts under Berlusconi till his political demise.

I hear you about the delays in the Italian system, but their history is a lot different than yours under English common law. Not too long ago, they had fascism, and then they went the other extreme in allowing an almost unlimited right of appeal. Yet even there, it's the civil cases that clog up the system. Thankfully they turned back Berlusconi's attempts to reduce the statute of limitations even further. having spoken to Law students in Rome, all I can say in defending Italy is they're quite aware of the need for reforms, and have high hopes they'll get there. They're sincere and idealistic, whereas the Brits and Americans, with their tattered rights and freedoms being eroded every day, seem complacent and or helpless in changing the situation.

One thing I do know, the Kerchers will get justice, so do not agree that justice has been denied. Delayed, yes, sadly so.
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Offline corpusvile


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 12:42 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Just to clarify, I do understand the context re Italy's judicial system, due to its fascist past and I don't think justice will be denied for the Kercher family ultimately. I just feel for them having to endure such an amount of time for it to finally happen. But again I do understand the context.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 1:19 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

We're cool, corpusvile. We're all in agreement about respect for the Kerchers and how much they had to go through.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 1:39 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Another OT, but looking around GoFundMe here's what I found: I'm against violence, but:

Quote:
While I do not support violence, I DO support the fact that Neil alledgedly stood up for Israel. He allegedly punched George Galloway in the face for making the comment that Bradford (in the UK) had been "declared an Israel-free zone" and urged people to reject all Israeli goods, services academics and tourists. Please help fund his legal costs! He is currently still being held. His next appointment in court is Sept 15th. Neil is looking into hiring a private lawyer according to his roommate. I am in touch with her, and she told me Neil said to tell everyone, "thanks so much!"


Yeah I'm 'against violence' unless I think someone deserves it, LOL.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:23 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

SqueakEMouse wrote:
Ergon wrote:
We can blame Giulia Bongiorno and judge Hellman for the delays. Sure the Italian system could do with some change, but I trust they will do justice for the Kerchers. It's the "experts" who did the most harm, not Italy.



The delays are designed into the system and are notorious, as are the failures to deliver justice because of them. Consider the farce of the David Mills trial. Berlusconi's UK lawyer, husband of Labour minister Tessa Jowell, spending years busily setting up offshore trusts and opague deals for Berlusconi. Investigated for money laundering, corruption and bribery on the back of the Berlusconi corruption allegations, Mills admitted to prosecutors that he had received around half a million from Berlusconi as a back hander (sorry, 'gift'). Finding that this helpful statement to prosecutors just got him into more trouble (sound familiar?) he suddenly remembered that he hadn't received it from Berlusconi after all but rather from a pal of his. (Happens all the time. Difficult to remember who gave you a half a mill when things are busy) He had just said it was from good old Silvio because he was afraid the Inland Revenue might accuse him of tax dodging. He thought saying it was from Silvio would sound better. Does that story make any sense? No. in fact it raises a few smiles. In fact it's hard to picture Mills himself managing to say it with a straight face.

After five years of legal wrangling and a four and a half year jail sentence, the case finally reaches Cassation. There it ends because (you guessed it) the statute of limitations had run out causing the case to be dismissed. So officially at least, the money really did come from Mills' pal and all Italy could do was slap him a fine for damaging the reputation of the office of the Prime Minister. That's the funniest part. The prosecutors set out to get an accomplice of Berlusconi and through him the man himself. They ended up defending Berlusconi's reputation by making Mills the only person ever to be fined for calling Silvio a crook. After five years of taxpayer funded legal stupidities, Mills walked away with just a big grin and a fine for taking the piss. A fine which will just be a deduction from the profits from the enterprise.

But perhaps nothing beats the sheer lunacy of the Trevisan art theft trials. Art dealer Trevisan was accused of stealing (or at least handling stolen goods) to the tune of a painting, by a businessman who claimed it had been stolen from his home some years earlier. The legal case got batted around for TWELVE years! (With the usual win some, lose some results of trial and appeal) The painting was locked up by police in the meantime. By this point both parties had died of old age. The court case continues! It hasn't quite got to Cassation yet but the estates of both gentlemen will probably want to see the race run its course. Cassation will be ruling on which of these two deceased gentlemen was the rightful owner of the painting that neither had seen for twelve years. Even Kafka couldn't make that one up. Imagine the reading of the will scene.... 'To my eldest son, I leave my outstanding court cases...'

What's that saying? Justice delayed is justice denied? Something like that. Well, justice dragging its feet until abandoned due to statutes of limitations or else carried to infinity in a legal Gordian Knot is also justice denied. Whether the Kerchers will see justice remains to be seen. None of the three participants has much motive now to tell the real truth, only to shift the blame to the others.

Postscrpt edit: Cynics at the time suggested that Mills and Jowell's split was about protecting the financial assets from Italian prosecutors as much as protecting her political reputation. I wonder if AK's crowd will hire him. He is a lawyer with Italian 'experience' after all. Ditch Ted, get Dave. Now it's all over, David and Tessa have managed to reconcile. (Just as the cynics predicted) Isn't that sweet. Blair's Babes concerned only with money and personal advancement?? Surely not!! Tony would be SHOCKED! Shocked and APPALLED! But I guess his busy schedule keeping peace in the middle east as the quartet envoy from a billionaire's yacht in the Caribbean will leave him little time to find out.



A few years back, more than a few actually, I studied up on comparative law and on how Italian law evolved. Yes of course many things adopted by other countries derive from ancient Greek and Italian concepts, and then you also get into law as dictated by religion, it was put that while the rest all ran around like blue-painted Huns, Italy and Greece had all of this development, concepts based on reasoning, whether ill-thought up or not. The very need to come up with concepts was born obviously of necessity, where people tried to devise ways to make it possible for humans to reside together without committing barbarous acts upon one another, this concept is forever valid and always will be the underpinning of law. Much of Europe was either ruled or influenced by Napoleonic Law, French law is apparently not too different in structure to the Italian, many countries in Europe do not have juries, just as Italy has no jury or jurors, for the word juror to be valid, the juror must be detached from any judge, in Italy the lay judges (unofficial judges = non-trained in law nor are they allowed to be trained in law) sit on the very same panel as the paid and trained judges, they are informed and given explanations on complicated matters of law by the court clerks, therefore, they get more than any juror in the American or British jury systems, they do not sit there judging people as though they the jurors are a dribbling bunch of incompetents. They are made to grasp.
However, in moving towards a more adversarial system of law and away from the what was as much as the traditional inquisitorial system of law, the contemporary product is a mixture of both, in theory, but in practice those practicing law (the lawyers also in particular) are more often than not unable to draw properly away from the deeply embedded former system.

In Italy the rich used to have ultimate power and as a penniless entity, as many were, you had basically no rights at all and people were absolutely terrified of the courts and the judges practicing law in them.
The judges were placed on a dias raised far above the court audience, they therefore glared down upon the wretched citizens. Those from the usual noted families, with wealth, could buy their ways out of anything.

I'm wondering how far these prejudicial elements still exist, looking at the Sollecito family, it appears dad still believed/believes in this unfair system, this delusionary grandeur allotted to some but not the many. On the surface it is not permitted, yet I ask, just how many dodgy Hellmann types are there still operating according to some, what is, actually, an illegal system from days gone by.

Berlusconi Jig a Jig, seemed to have done much wrong yet he never seems to get punished even when found guilty, how much did his money talk?

And, what if in the end someone is definitively found Not Guilty, after a run of almost 10 years, how do you repair that with money?

My opinion is that the Italian law system is an ongoing intellectual exercise that allows salt to be rubbed into the already fatal wounds killers make.

In moves to renew and update, the Italian bench was lowered to the same level as those accused and the rules that we see now with this over-thoroughness is and are the results of the attempt to move away from the total unfairness from the past, but now, it went all the other way, the defendant comes first.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Strike a light, I've been so busy, all day, dusting the vacuum cleaner, it gets that way used so little!

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Offline max


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:53 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Even Hellmann did not rule out that RS and AK killed Meredith. He just thought that any microscopic amount of doubt was sufficient to acquit them. All based on 2 'independent' experts who claimed anything is possible. I certainly wouldn't mind if the Italian justice system would speed up a bit, but it is more worrisome that elements like Hellmann & friends are part of the system. How is it possible that a civil judge like Hellmann was ever assigned to this high profile murder case? How was Zanetti assigned? The lay judges? Whoever whispered in Hellmann's ear that he had to ask these 2 specific 'independent' experts? I don't know anything about mafia or stuff like that, but it is clear to me that this was all the work of a small group of friends and 'friends of friends'. It is good that there is the Supreme Court to keep an eye and correct such nonsense but it really should never have happened in the first place.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:10 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Merry Christmas
In case I forget

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:27 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Yes I think it is pretty safe to call the one scientist, called in, a fascist, odd that a person with such an awful reputation -- one that is the direct result of doing strange things in relation to her former university mentor's nephew, who definitely was a fascist, rapist and murderer, yet in the end, evidently a heroin addict too -- of all people her indeed -- got called in.

Wasn't she probably called in precisely because of her notoriety in that she offered help to her former mentor, precisely because they knew she could be bent, I reckon so, and I also reckon they sought out Hellmann, approached him, tickled his balls with polite American kindness in the form of a nice little earner for him, while he, the simple man (add ''ton'' to the simple), charmed by his new American and probably British acquaintances, he like a typical friendly Italian waiter, most hospitable, was supposed to be a judge, not the guy discussing olives, cured sausage types, vino buono and the pros and cons of mixing onions and garlic in the pasta.
They probably brought him gifts, treating him like the baby Jesus, one drinking screech or whatever that shit is called, probably brought him picnick baskets full of the stuff, it's a wonder Sfarz didn't get in there too and try to accost or bash Hellmann's daughter.

Back to Sollecito, not blaming himself one bit for his predicament, he decided to blame his own lawyers, as though his being found guilty was purely the result of their incompetence.
Jolly good old boy, who are you kidding numpty, no question mark as I'm not asking.
How awful must that be to be around him and to have to listen to his poor old me tales of woe, that girlfriend cannot be the sharpest tool in the box, I assume she must be as naïve as naïve gets, not a lot of people know this but apart from the bad in Italy, there are very gentle, kind people, such as I hardly ever met elsewhere, he has picked out one of those, but a naïve one, and he is using her too. Poor girl. That's all I can think, the only other alternative is she is also from the funny farm!'

Girl: Hello mom, this is my new boyfriend, his name is Raffle but he likes his nickname, cold-blooded killer, don't worry he makes the great fish, he's very fishy guy mom.
Mom: Oh wonderful, just great, I'm starving, so what you killed someone, chop em up and threw em in the river?

Sollec the Toblerone Robot: Almost, not quite, we had no time.
Mom: Well you'll have plenty of time in jail son

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Last edited by zorba on Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Forced Dieting and Old Aged Pensioners

Having purchased a packet of British made crisps (chips in many other languages but we already have those in the countries happily united as the UK (erhum).

So yes, there I was with my home grown crisps, Kettle the make, vinegar flavoured, and merrily trying to briefly pull them open at top, I noticed I was straining my arm and could but not gain access, try all I might, it then dawned on me that said company, trying to do its bit against the popular obesity mode, had made them harder to get into, I thought of all of the old folk trying to have a little snack and having to wait for their sons at the end of the week, to help out. Having no dynamite stick lying about the place I thought I'd better buy a guillotine but the idea of one of those at home seemed all wrong, so I got the neighbour girl in to take a hold, while I took a pair of those garden hedge shears to do the job, it also dawned on me that this is the real reason Americans are so keen on guns, they like to hunt and shoot their own food, even if it didn't need killing and was acquired at the local supermarket, if only the shoes I bought were so strong, save a fortune. Spent., after opening them, I fell back onto the sofa and woke up entirely not hungry anymore, only after a bottle of gin did I hear some rumblings in the tummy, whereupon I grabbed the nicely opened package and thought, ain't I just lucky I have tools and ain't one.

Review

Taste = 5 points *****
Crunch = *****
Grease = ***
Price = **
Method of preparation = Home cooked *****

It was an average 5 and to think, home cooked, since 1773 I believe, the poor old woman there up north, peeling all of those potatoes, at that level the price ought to be a 5 but I'm tight.

I only bought them because those Lay ones, being American, and with high fat content, seemed to me to be strange, millions of people must be peeling potatoes and trying to get rich too, why would they be almost the only ones you see these days?
The mars bars brigade and Unilever I expect.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 8:55 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

After brewaking into the crisps/chip packet, and consuming them, I found I'd neither gained nor lost weight, since the energy consumed and the operating of tools to burgle them equated to the same.

It's there I started thinking of our NOT friend Sollecito, what will he do in prison, grow great big muscles get some tattoos, no, but I'd sure like to know more about how, in Italy, where the accent is on rehabilitation, I am gathering but not so sure, they are going to be dealing with him. If every clown that happens to have money gets to exert influence through some side or back door, then some prisoners will and I know do, end up preferring the institutionalised lifestyle, where there is no more worries and concerns about where the next meal is coming from or how the bills will be paid, meals are provided at least here times a day and Italy being Italy it wouldn't surprise me if a light supper is provided with camomile tea, e anche un po di biscotti, a few biscuits yes, but not Walter, Guede's lawyer. Luckily for Guede, he seems not to have suffered from the same brand of stupidity as befell the other two murderers, he was not stubborn enough to ignore his lawyer's counsel, and took the advice, knowing he would not get off, in no way can it be married to a food behavioural score, since he did know there was no way in hell he could get off, even though Biscotti attempted to present his client as someone totally innocent, surely if you are not guilty, really not guilty, there is no way in heaven or hrell that you are going to leave it in the middle. In spite of this, this notion can in no way be affixed to the behaviour of the other two, as though their reasons for not opting for the abbreviated process was grounded in them truly not being guilty, on the contrary, the very obvious reason they opted for the full trial though not taking the stand, was because they could, and because they continued to be positioned at the outer reaches of selfishness, imagining they could get away with all of it.

Sollecsenior and his water uphill, yet his son furthered his career in murder by specialising in begging, so what is it with the water uphill and the money needed to push it that way. Dad obviously has given his son some serious bollockings about various elements, one may have been about how his son could have been such a vile person and have committed murder, and, though dad it has been claimed by some was a doctor to the dons, I do not know whether that is true, it's the same as showing photos on this site , of people with the name Sollecito in Canada, then building entire speculative stories based on the idea that these mafia members must be Sollecito's family, it's ridiculous and a time wasting pursuit to claim things without any evidence whatsoever, so what is it makes a respected and successful business undertaking urologist (with interests and ownership in 4 clinics at least) turn into a complete liar, all because it concerns family? To assert these people in Canada are family would help the idea that dsad was a crook anyway, but me, until I see evidence that he was indeed a doctor for the mafia or that those people in Canada are family, I am not going to base anything on it

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 8:58 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

That means, dad went from being a participating, contributing, valuable member of society to a crook, even based only on the provision of the highly confidential footage showing Meredith lying there in pools of her own blood, I really think whoever was responsible for releasing those police evidence tapes should now be in prison, including those from the TV.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:31 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

After breaking into the crisps/chip packet, and consuming them, I found I'd neither gained nor lost weight, since the energy consumed and the operating of tools to burgle them equated to the same.

It's there I started thinking of our NOT friend Sollecito, what will he do in prison, grow great big muscles get some tattoos, no, but I'd sure like to know more about how, in Italy, where the accent is on rehabilitation (I am gathering but not so sure), they are going to be dealing with him.

If every clown that happens to have money gets to exert influence through some side or back door, then some prisoners will and I know do, end up preferring the institutionalised lifestyle, where there is no more worries and concerns about where the next meal is coming from or how the bills will be paid, meals are provided at least three times a day (*while many an imprisoned ex-citizen had nothing in the fridge on many a day) and Italy being Italy it wouldn't surprise me if a light supper is provided with camomile tea, e anche un po di biscotti, a few biscuits yes, but not Walter, Guede's lawyer. Luckily for Guede, he seems not to have suffered from the same brand of stupidity as befell the other two murderers, he was not stubborn enough to ignore his lawyer's counsel, and took the advice, knowing he would not get off, in no way can it be married to a food behavioural score, since he did know there was no way in hell he could get off, even though Biscotti attempted to present his client as someone totally innocent, surely if you are not guilty, really not guilty, there is no way in heaven or hell that you are going to leave it in the middle. In spite of this, this notion can in no way be affixed to the behaviour of the other two, as though their reasons for not opting for the abbreviated process was grounded in truly being innocent, no, my opinionis that it was grounded in the will to deceive, the idwa then that they might get off and look, at the moment they are off aren't they, because they are not in p[Risdon and they should never ever have been released back into society the way they have been.

Italian system of justice is for that reason, to my mind, failing. What if these happened to be a bunch of serial killers, could there be an excuse for releasing Hannibal the Cannibal back into society while people in courts ponce about letting every Tom, Dickhead and Harry from some university out to earn a few bob as a side-line, come to court and expound the most outlandish theories that even a wee child could grasp are simply ridiculous, as has and does Carlo Torres. The man is mad and creepy.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 6:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I don't get why this site is nowhere to be found when I do a search, even when I type the URL in, top of page, doesn't work, wanted to loo at the site on my Tablet, unable to locate site!

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 6:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I don't get why this site is nowhere to be found when I do a search, even when I type the URL in, top of page, doesn't work, wanted to look at the site on my Tablet, unable to locate site!

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Offline max


Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:55 am

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:01 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

zorba wrote:
I don't get why this site is nowhere to be found when I do a search, even when I type the URL in, top of page, doesn't work, wanted to look at the site on my Tablet, unable to locate site!

You mean in Google? This site is not in Google. Too much duplicate content with the .org site I suppose, so Google tossed the whole site.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:02 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Not a whole lot of news lately except some gossip stuff that is too embarrassing to even link to. RS sitting at a table, and attending an apps workshop. AK has a new boyfriend (Daily Mail). Not sure why they even put stuff like that in the papers. At least the DM has 'convicted killer' in the headline.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:36 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

max wrote:
zorba wrote:
I don't get why this site is nowhere to be found when I do a search, even when I type the URL in, top of page, doesn't work, wanted to look at the site on my Tablet, unable to locate site!

You mean in Google? This site is not in Google. Too much duplicate content with the .org site I suppose, so Google tossed the whole site.



Yes, I did mean in Google Max.

Well, that's pretty shitty then, I mean I saw all of that nonsense stuff, I mean nasty stuff.

The .org PMF is always visible up top, but this site used to be visible, surely Google wouldn't have thrown it out, would they?

Yes Mr Sollec is a strange man, I mean attending those things but I do not think he is ever going to make a mark anywhere and to me what he does always seems like a case of doing it to be seen doing it.

Knox must have to be very careful exactly who she picks out, because she only needs one to find out stuff, and then, if they fall out as people do, just like people who said, all the time when together, "Oh I loves ya" and all that, but then upon falling out get to trying and wanting to destroy one another, well when you are in her position, that wouldn't be a laughing master, since anything a boyfriend gets to know about her might be her real downfall, so how does one, someone then such as her, keep it all hid... what a blimmin job!

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Last edited by zorba on Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:51 am   Post subject: NEW BOYFRIEND   

But look who's with her in New York, walking closer than her new "boyfriend" :)


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Offline malvern


Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:27 pm

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:40 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Seems like another set up boyfriend to proceed her move to New York.
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Offline max


Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:55 am

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:25 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

malvern wrote:
Seems like another set up boyfriend to proceed her move to New York.

Does that mean she will be put in a New York jail instead of the Seattle one?
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:07 am   Post subject: Re: NEW BOYFRIEND   

Ergon wrote:
But look who's with her in New York, walking closer than her new "boyfriend" :)



Who is it then Ergon?

It looks as though Knox is explaining how they were wrong about the size of the knife and it was actually "this big".


Anyhow, like attracts alike!!!

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:49 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

That's her friend Madison Paxton, last seen impersonating her under a blanket when she lost her appeal, zorba. Just call her maroon pants (she wore that then too)
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Yes Knox always has new looking clothes on, for her crime has paid her very well, never worked a day in her life except for at the place she freaked that Jewish guy out by going on about how her people killed his people... charming manner of interaction there, he was obviously truly thrilled by it and quit the same day then getting straight on his way to see a psychologist while first dropping in on a drug store to get some Neurofen +

Oh how he thanked her for her information.

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Offline max


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:54 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I guess it was to be expected that the new lover story would be copied by many news outlets. This Italian one was kind of funny.
http://www.ilmattino.it/PRIMOPIANO/ESTE ... 8576.shtml
And we are supposed to believe that on Coney Island there just so happened to be a journalist walking around who recognized Knox and followed her around taking these 'totally natural' pictures. Yeah right.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 3:49 pm   Post subject: DATE FOR HIGH COURT!   

We have a date for the High Court. Barbie Nadeau has just tweeted the following:

Barbie Latza Nadeau ‏@BLNadeau
#amandaknox high court will convene Mar 25, 2015 to decide whether to uphold murder conviction for murder of #meredithkercher or redo appeal

https://twitter.com/BLNadeau/status/516975708347064320

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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 4:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Thanks Michael for this long-awaited news.

25 March 2015 - an ominous date for both Knox and Sollecito - two years exactly to the day after the first Supreme Court hearing in 2013:

http://www.perugiamurderfile.net/viewtopic.php?p=106348#p106348

25 March 2015 - Ghirga's 70th birthday -->> viewtopic.php?p=105640#p105640
26 March 2015 - Sollecito's 31st birthday

Hopefully they'll get some 'nice' birthday gifts. ;) Justice is finally coming for Meredith. r-((
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