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XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -

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Offline SqueakEMouse


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 5:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Just musing, but what sort of lawyer walks out on a client when the case is ongoing? Especially when Teddy Bear's speciality is supposed to be extradition and that part of the battle is now coming over the horizon. I thought it was considered to be highly unprofessional and an absolute last resort to walk away. Perhaps it is a last resort. Having got himself into this nightmare quagmire of lies and sleaze, is his last resort that he has to take the humiliation and professional loss of face of walking out rather than stay for worse. If the lawyers jump ship with minimum swimming skills, what does that say about their true opinion of Knox's chances?
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 8:00 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

That is indeed odd timing, but, was he ever really employed by the Noxa, because that woman is not keen on paying anyone, I never believed they employed him.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 12:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

AMERICANS MOVE ON AS THE WEST SAYS NOTHING AGAIN.

http://michaeldavidcurley.blogspot.co.u ... thing.html


Weird. This reads like gibberish to me. Unless I missed something.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

(( OT OT ))

Experts close to perfect in determining truth in interrogations using active question methods

08:07, Psychology & Psychiatry

Determining deception is a tool of the trade for law enforcement. The Good Cop/Bad Cop routine is etched in our minds as an effective method of finding out the truth. But prior research has shown that lie detecting is a 50/50 shot for experts and non-experts alike. So what exactly can we do to find out the truth? A recent study published in Human Communication Research by researchers at Korea University, Michigan State University, and Texas State University - San Marcos found that using active questioning of individuals yielded near-perfect results, 97.8%, in detecting deception.


For full article: PHYSORG

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 6:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Shrien Dewani fit to stand trial. http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-bristol-28801378

Now if they convict Oscar Pistorius that will also make my day.
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 8:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ruth Alexander wrote an article about the case which included the following false claim by Pete Gill:

"The amount of Meredith's DNA found on the blade of the knife at Sollecito's flat is a tiny, Gill says, and it wasn't treated with the care you would expect of forensic scientists. At one point it was transported in a cardboard box posted to Meredith, and could possibly have become contaminated."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-26338637

Ruth Alexander's lack of due diligence is not acceptable for a BBC journalist and the BBC should not publish factually inaccurate statements on their website.

I encourage people to complain about this to the BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/

Please retweet my tweets to Ruth Alexander:

https://twitter.com/harryrag/status/500325126710501376

https://twitter.com/harryrag/status/500323507457523713

https://twitter.com/harryrag/status/500322461565849600

https://twitter.com/harryrag/status/500322180866252801
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 8:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

It should be pointed out that Gill did not make the reference to it being a box belonging to Meredith, but, he allowed the reporter to make a false claim. I already clarified what he actually said in the radio interview and in his book.

ETA: Ruth Alexander has now corrected the report. Box was NOT posted to Meredith.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:24 pm   Post subject: GILL   

I did send a tweet to BBC reporter https://twitter.com/Ruth__Alexander asking her to confirm she quoted Gill correctly. SHE claims he said the knife was transported in a box "that had been sent to Meredith" ff)
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 11:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Re Oscar Pistorius I've had my doubts he'd be convicted of 1st degree murder, manslaughter maybe? But astrology wise Saturn's been in Scorpio a while and will be going over his sun in December so, I'll vote for murder in the 1st degree. Justice MUST be done. Ani Hindocha and Reeva Steenkamp, RIP
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 3:48 am   Post subject: RAFFAELE SOLLECITO ON THE OUTS   

In case you want to check Sollecito's GoFundMe page then not a single donation has been received from the Knoxers since the very public meltdown between the two and their supporters in July, just so you know :)
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Offline corpusvile


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 3:53 am   Post subject: Re: RAFFAELE SOLLECITO ON THE OUTS   

Ergon wrote:
In case you want to check Sollecito's GoFundMe page then not a single donation has been received from the Knoxers since the very public meltdown between the two and their supporters in July, just so you know :)


Heh sweet. :D
Sent you a pm with a link on that other issue btw. ;)
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 10:06 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

SqueakEMouse wrote:
Just musing, but what sort of lawyer walks out on a client when the case is ongoing? Especially when Teddy Bear's speciality is supposed to be extradition and that part of the battle is now coming over the horizon. I thought it was considered to be highly unprofessional and an absolute last resort to walk away. Perhaps it is a last resort. Having got himself into this nightmare quagmire of lies and sleaze, is his last resort that he has to take the humiliation and professional loss of face of walking out rather than stay for worse. If the lawyers jump ship with minimum swimming skills, what does that say about their true opinion of Knox's chances?



Hi Squeak, it's not out of the ordinary, lawyers are regularly dropped or opt out, the defendant thinks the lawyer isn't doing enough - fired, the lawyer has other issues like being forced, through a case, to work with other lawyers that he/she doesn't get on with or doesn't want to get on with, and a lawyer then may start to see that it is hopeless, or whatever, but, they do opt out, because they are not bound by law to stay, unless, they drew up a contract yet I have never heard of any such contract.
However, the reasons for leaving can be clearly read, like now, as to why, it is because he was yet another meddler, but he may never have actually been paid to work, I reckon he made some deal, as it is publicity for him, though, I do not see how, after having clearly showed himself as being dishonest, he imagined his moves were going to raise his credibility.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 10:08 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Yeah me granny read the tea leaves and Pistorius is going down.

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Offline Fast Pete


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 1:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

zorba wrote:
SqueakEMouse wrote:
Just musing, but what sort of lawyer walks out on a client when the case is ongoing? Especially when Teddy Bear's speciality is supposed to be extradition and that part of the battle is now coming over the horizon. I thought it was considered to be highly unprofessional and an absolute last resort to walk away. Perhaps it is a last resort. Having got himself into this nightmare quagmire of lies and sleaze, is his last resort that he has to take the humiliation and professional loss of face of walking out rather than stay for worse. If the lawyers jump ship with minimum swimming skills, what does that say about their true opinion of Knox's chances?


Hi Squeak, it's not out of the ordinary, lawyers are regularly dropped or opt out, the defendant thinks the lawyer isn't doing enough - fired, the lawyer has other issues like being forced, through a case, to work with other lawyers that he/she doesn't get on with or doesn't want to get on with, and a lawyer then may start to see that it is hopeless, or whatever, but, they do opt out, because they are not bound by law to stay, unless, they drew up a contract yet I have never heard of any such contract.
However, the reasons for leaving can be clearly read, like now, as to why, it is because he was yet another meddler, but he may never have actually been paid to work, I reckon he made some deal, as it is publicity for him, though, I do not see how, after having clearly showed himself as being dishonest, he imagined his moves were going to raise his credibility.


He was paid, if he did jump ship (we dont know 100%) its likely because of the AK drugs story and guilty verdict and no truthful grounds for resisting extradition, and a whole row of legal problems coming down the pike to do with bloodmoney being illegal (he doesnt know laws about that?!!) and the many felony claims in the Knox book and the provocative and untrue email to Nencini he okayed.

Essentially he made or allowed things to get worse. He himself is far from out of the woods. The Knox Perugia lawyers played some games, as Michael knows, but read the trial transcripts, they did not go where Knox went. I'd say Knox is seriously isolated now, except for the fruitloops.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 2:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

The Machine wrote:
Ruth Alexander wrote an article about the case which included the following false claim by Pete Gill:

"The amount of Meredith's DNA found on the blade of the knife at Sollecito's flat is a tiny, Gill says, and it wasn't treated with the care you would expect of forensic scientists. At one point it was transported in a cardboard box posted to Meredith, and could possibly have become contaminated."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-26338637

Ruth Alexander's lack of due diligence is not acceptable for a BBC journalist and the BBC should not publish factually inaccurate statements on their website.

I encourage people to complain about this to the BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/

Please retweet my tweets to Ruth Alexander:

https://twitter.com/harryrag/status/500325126710501376

https://twitter.com/harryrag/status/500323507457523713

https://twitter.com/harryrag/status/500322461565849600

https://twitter.com/harryrag/status/500322180866252801



This is what happens when technical experts start thinking they are criminal court judges.

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 4:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

zorba wrote:
Yeah me granny read the tea leaves and Pistorius is going down.


Your granny is quite wise, zorba :)
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 5:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
zorba wrote:
Yeah me granny read the tea leaves and Pistorius is going down.


Your granny is quite wise, zorba :)


Haha, yes she was.

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Offline beans


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 5:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

The real story of the collection and handling of the knife is here:

From Massei (Wiki, English translation, page 106): Testimony of Armando Finzi, chief inspector of the Flying Squad of Perugia, confirmed by Stefano Gubbiotti and assistant Zugarini Lorena at the hearing of February 28, 2009.

“As soon as the knife was picked up he (Finzi) put it in a new paper bag that he had with him and then in a folder.

The sealed bag with the 31 centimetre knife inside was handed over to superintendent Gubbiotti. The bag the knife was put in was new and had never been previously used; in the same [bag] there was never any other item.”

“He (Stefano Gubbiotti) said that upon returning to the police station, inspector Finzi handed him the material seized in the home of Sollecito Raffaele. The first thing he handed over was the knife which was inside a new bag that was well wrapped and submitted closed and thus had no contact with the exterior. He specified that when handing over such knife he had new gloves on, which he had not used on other occasions and which he took from the office.

Therefore, with those gloves, he removed the knife from the bag and put it inside a box that he sealed with scotch-tape. He specified that such box previously contained a desk diary and no other items apart from “the new desk diary offered” by a bank. This box was then sent, along with other findings, to the Scientific Police in Rome.”

Needless to say no shoebox addressed to Meredith was involved.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 6:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Nicely pointed out Beans

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Offline DrStrangeglove


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 11:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
Re Oscar Pistorius I've had my doubts he'd be convicted of 1st degree murder, manslaughter maybe? But astrology wise Saturn's been in Scorpio a while and will be going over his sun in December so, I'll vote for murder in the 1st degree. Justice MUST be done. Ani Hindocha and Reeva Steenkamp, RIP

huh-)
I have to say I think astrology is tilting at windmills, so to speak, but I wish it to be real if it means Pistorius gets the verdict he deserves. The little I have seen of his testimony has absolutely sickened me and I am of the opinion sentencing for people who continue to hurt loved ones left behind and insult everyone's intelligence with "testimony" like his (you can possibly guess who else I place in this category) should be very harsh indeed.
I agree completely with your sentiments on all three murders. Just don't freak me out by saying that's because I'm a Gemini! tou-)
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:05 am   Post subject: ON GILL   

beans wrote:
The real story of the collection and handling of the knife is here:

From Massei (Wiki, English translation, page 106): Testimony of Armando Finzi, chief inspector of the Flying Squad of Perugia, confirmed by Stefano Gubbiotti and assistant Zugarini Lorena at the hearing of February 28, 2009.

“As soon as the knife was picked up he (Finzi) put it in a new paper bag that he had with him and then in a folder.

The sealed bag with the 31 centimetre knife inside was handed over to superintendent Gubbiotti. The bag the knife was put in was new and had never been previously used; in the same [bag] there was never any other item.”

“He (Stefano Gubbiotti) said that upon returning to the police station, inspector Finzi handed him the material seized in the home of Sollecito Raffaele. The first thing he handed over was the knife which was inside a new bag that was well wrapped and submitted closed and thus had no contact with the exterior. He specified that when handing over such knife he had new gloves on, which he had not used on other occasions and which he took from the office.

Therefore, with those gloves, he removed the knife from the bag and put it inside a box that he sealed with scotch-tape. He specified that such box previously contained a desk diary and no other items apart from “the new desk diary offered” by a bank. This box was then sent, along with other findings, to the Scientific Police in Rome.”

Needless to say no shoebox addressed to Meredith was involved.


You and I know that, beans. Anyone who's properly followed the case, without the FOA blinders on, knows that. The problem is the media blindly reports what they've been told by "experts" like Gill, and refuse to correct the record.

Their varied scenarios, repeated over and over again in the media and Twitter, is the shoe box belonging to Meredith, or, that Inspector Finzi was in and out of the cottage several times prior and may have transferred Meredith's DNA on to the knife by environmental DNA, sticky DNA, or, 'household dust', all of which are fanciful theories floated by Gill himself in his ill researched book. And here's the problem: he doesn't say that's what happened. But, he has implied contamination in several interviews and this book, helpfully reinforces that view without quite coming out and saying so directly.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:51 am   Post subject: CONTACTING THE BBC RE GILL   

I sent the following tweets to Ruth Alexander of the BBC yesterday:

Naseer Ahmad BBC 3:00 PM - 15 Aug 2014
‏@manfromatlan @Ruth__Alexander Re http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26338637 … Did Peter Gill say the box the knife was transported in was sent to #MeredithKercher? Pls respond

Naseer Ahmad BBC 3:02 PM - 15 Aug 2014
‏@manfromatlan @Ruth__Alexander Because that isn't true. So, was Professor Gill quoted correctly here? Please respond, hope to discuss w/you

Note: this was to enquire about this quote from Gill reported here on the BBC website BBC magazine

Quote:
The amount of Meredith's DNA found on the blade of the knife at Sollecito's flat is a tiny, Gill says, and it wasn't treated with the care you would expect of forensic scientists. At one point it was transported in a cardboard box posted to Meredith, and could possibly have become contaminated.


Please note this contrasts with the BBC radio news report earlier this year which came out much more strongly in favour of the contamination scenario.

In the magazine, Ruth Alexander is a lot more fair. She writes:

Quote:
The prosecution says DNA evidence also puts Sollecito and Knox at the scene of the crime. Sollecito's DNA was found on Meredith's bra clasp. Knox's DNA was found on the handle of a knife from Sollecito's kitchen, while Meredith's DNA was found on the blade.

Sollecito tells me this cannot possibly be the case, but two independent experts who have analysed the evidence told me it indisputably is.


So, even if she later says:

Quote:
However, it occurs to me that he might be focusing on the wrong thing, because the important question is - how did the DNA get there? It is possible that it was a case of "innocent transfer", according to the founding father of DNA profiling, Professor Peter Gill.

Sollecito visited the flat shared by Knox and Meredith as Knox's boyfriend before the murder, so it's likely his DNA was present elsewhere in the house, Gill points out. The forensic officers didn't collect the bra clasp for 46 days and it had been moved from its original position at the crime scene - so it's possible Sollecito's DNA had been accidentally transferred to the clasp.


I have to accept her view as honestly held, especially as her source is Professor Gill. But I still have to correct the record, the knife was NOT "transported in a shoe box belonging to Meredith".

I hope to hear back from her.
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Offline corpusvile


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 3:57 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Here's an odd coincidence. Apparently the Narducci family lawyer Alfredo Brizioli, whose preliminary hearing along with Mario Spezi's began last June, is also attached to Sollecito's defence team?
http://www.umbria24.it/omicidio-meredith--raffaele-potrebbe-far-cadere-lalibi-ad-amanda/297159.html

Anyone else find this a bit weird?
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 4:07 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

corpusvile wrote:
Here's an odd coincidence. Apparently the Narducci family lawyer Alfredo Brizioli, whose preliminary hearing along with Mario Spezi's began last June, is also attached to Sollecito's defence team?
http://www.umbria24.it/omicidio-meredith--raffaele-potrebbe-far-cadere-lalibi-ad-amanda/297159.html

Anyone else find this a bit weird?


Indeed, corpusvile. It all leads back to the MOF case, as I've argued before.

But this is about the investigation of RS defamation of PM Mignini in his Honor Bound Book. The article, if I read it correctly, does show Sollecito blaming Andrew Gumbel for the "unauthorized translation of a few sentences" or that he was misquoted? Hmm :)
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Offline corpusvile


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 4:27 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
corpusvile wrote:
Here's an odd coincidence. Apparently the Narducci family lawyer Alfredo Brizioli, whose preliminary hearing along with Mario Spezi's began last June, is also attached to Sollecito's defence team?
http://www.umbria24.it/omicidio-meredith--raffaele-potrebbe-far-cadere-lalibi-ad-amanda/297159.html

Anyone else find this a bit weird?


Indeed, corpusvile. It all leads back to the MOF case, as I've argued before.

But this is about the investigation of RS defamation of PM Mignini in his Honor Bound Book. The article, if I read it correctly, does show Sollecito blaming Andrew Gumbel for the "unauthorized translation of a few sentences" or that he was misquoted? Hmm :)


Ah. The old "Everyone else is at fault except me!!" defence, a-la Knox? :D

It's a definite weird one. I mentioned before on another board another odd coincidence, of Carlo Della Vedova appearing in regards to a dodgy bridge contract for the Rizzuto crime family in Montreal, of whose alleged consigliere is Rocco Solelcito, from Bari. Persistent rumours abound that Rocco is the cousin of Francesco Sollecito & they actually look alike.
Now we have Brizioli popping up.
Curioser & curioser...
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 4:45 am   Post subject: ROCCO SOLLECITO   

Carlo Della Vedova defended the Rizutto family where? Do tell. Yes, Rocco Sollecito is indeed their consigliere.

Here's the Rizzuto Family

And here's Rocco Sollecito

We checked for familial resemblances with Papa Francesco a while back (The nose! The eyes! The ears! The mouth! :)


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Offline corpusvile


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 4:59 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Lol, I'll have to go digging for the link again & the link is in Italian. basically CDV's name pops up on what looks like an intelligence briefing on the Rizzuto's listing their fingers in various pies. CDV's appeared in relation to a bridge contract, although I'm sure it's not very uncommon for a legit lawyer in Italy to represent mosbters at some point. I've heard the name Sollecito is quite common in Bari also.
Gimme a while and I'll find the link as I'm in work atm.
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Offline corpusvile


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 5:11 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Okay here we go re CDV
http://www.uonna.it/ponte-sullo-stretto-canadian-connection.htm
You'll have to wade through this to find him, but it definitely mentions CDV, again in regards to a seemingly legit bridge contract. I'll find the segment if I can & edit.
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Offline corpusvile


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 5:16 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Fourth pargraph down- "Was appointed counsel to the known Roman lawyer Carlo Della Vedova".
It appears to be saying that basically CDV represented them in "legitimate" contracts or something. He didn't defend them but merely represented some of their business interests. Whether this is simply a coincidence is something I'm not too sure on. Kinda odd though combined with Brizioli how the same names keep popping up.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:59 am   Post subject: MONTREAL MOB MESSINA STRAITS PROJECT   

LOL, indeed, corpusvile. Moving from the mob led construction scandal in Montreal to the mob money laundering Straits of Messina construction project, now stalled (well, cancelled once again but it's been on and off a few times) http://www.worldhighways.com/categories ... e-dispute/

What a coincidence that Carla Della Vedova is involved in helping them out :)
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:50 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Before the day is out, Solitary Sol is going to come up with something even nuttier, perhaps his very not good self becoming that something, as in, I'm now nuts you cannot lock me up ... in a prison.

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Last edited by zorba on Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:12 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Thing is, it is a waste of time speculating on a thing without knowing the truth (as you can go on forever), then building entire scenarios on that speculation.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 3:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

If, in Italy, the judicial process, such as this one, is not to be final until the final ruling from the Supreme Court, it could be changed, slightly, because, what if a person is a cold killer, and, in this system, gets out on appeal, but technically, is not actually truly free until that supreme court ruling says so, then, the idea that a real killer is allowed out, in the meantime, seems to me to be all wrong, because what an enormous danger to society, some throat-cutting rapist, just out, but not really out. Out enough though to kill someone again.

Therefore, wouldn't it be better, to see it indeed as a whole, all of the appeals, etc., and if found guilty, and then on appeal not guilty, to be restrained at least somehow, by means, let's say of some type of tagging, house arrest, until the supreme court ruling, and for foreigners a ban on leaving the country.

I'm wondering whether or not things do need all this amount of time, in between processes, and the time leading up to a first high court trial.

Look then at Meredith's family, totally warm, polite and totally hurt, but it is now 8 years, people die in such lengths of time, and I think it all then gets a little bit crazy.

I'm not certain I dig the Italian system, and I think maybe I think it would be better if they changed this three-tier process, because it is not even a 3-tier system, it can be more.
Why, wouldn't it work in Italy if it works in Britain (where once a person gets found guilty it is very hard to get an appeal, where there is no room for opportunists and other assorted lunatics to stick the boot in meddling and whatever else) wouldn't it work and be better for people in an amended way, so not all of these easy to get appeals based on nonsense

This would mean, when these two got found guilty they went down and they stayed there, unless there really was substantial evidence of a miscarriage of justice or, yes, contamination, etc., but this cannot be left to nutters, ranting on about contamination and this being allowed when it is all obviously illogical and complete nonsense.

This would mean, the two of them would have been in prison now and there would not have been any appeals granted according to anything these people submitted up until now.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Dear oh Lord, everyone on holiday?

I need one, here's me GoFundMeHoliday account
: 45645676

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 4:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

zorba wrote:
Dear oh Lord, everyone on holiday?

I need one, here's me GoFundMeHoliday account
: 45645676



Everyone's on Twitter, I think.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Well done to Harry Rag!!! Re: Cardboard box posted to Meredith: -



Ruth Alexander ‏@Ruth__Alexander 5h

@harryrag Hi. Thanks for pointing out this error - crept in during editing process. Box hadn't been posted to Meredith. Article amended.


https://twitter.com/Ruth__Alexander/sta ... 8299341825

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael wrote:
zorba wrote:
Dear oh Lord, everyone on holiday?

I need one, here's me GoFundMeHoliday account
: 45645676



Everyone's on Twitter, I think.


Spect so, yes, maybe, I don't know.

When does the court have to issue a ruling, or is there no time limit?

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

It will be some time early next year (2015). Around January.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:03 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael wrote:
It will be some time early next year (2015). Around January.


That long still!

The only solace; it means they will have worked out every detail.

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:42 am   Post subject: AMANDA KNOX EXTRADITION FOLLIES   

An example of the type of ill informed thinking regarding the case propagated on Twitter and IIP:

Knox Nonsense

Quote:
Marie ‏@tttmon
"@Smalldeer66: Once the Office of International Affairs reviews the case, there will be no extradition. #amandaknox


Ahem, I reply:

Quote:
Naseer Ahmad ‏@manfromatlan · 23m
@tttmon @Smalldeer66 Sigh. Did you read your cite? It applies to the US requesting the extradition of someone from ANOTHER country :)



Quote:
Naseer Ahmad @manfromatlan · 28m

But to be fair, there is no guarantee provisional arrest will be requested or granted in case of #amandaknox. Extradition, though, yes.



Quote:
Naseer Ahmad @manfromatlan · 16m

@wonderfullone Italy has to make a strong request for provisional arrest, and it is still up to requested party to grant. Flight risk? :)



Quote:
Naseer Ahmad @manfromatlan · 1m

@wonderfullone We'll remind people of that ;)


Bottom line, though. Amanda Knox still can be released on bail until the extradition hearing. Just to be fair to readers here.
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Offline corpusvile


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:55 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

How likely is it that she'll be allowed free on bail or indeed incarcerated though? Not sure on the status of those awaiting/battling extraditions, but they're keeping Kevin Dahlgren incarcerated in the US for example & he hasn't gone to trial in the Czech Republic yet, but merely had an arrest warrant issued. Here assuming Cassation finalizes the convictions, you have a convicted killer, with financial capital who stated in an interview that she was "ready to become a fugitive" and that they'd have to drag her "kicking & screaming" to the plane. Couldn't such remarks even if delivered in a tongue-in-cheek manner come back to haunt her?
I'm not sure how the US authorities would view this, but at the risk of engaging in wishful thinking, I'm actually not sure she won't be incarcerated, just in case. It'll be dead time too if she is. :)

But would anyone have any thoughts on this, as in likelihood for or against Knox being incarcerated while fighting extradition?
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:47 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Quote:
Bail During Extradition

Once Amanda Knox is arrested she will remain in detention for the remainder of the extradition process. For international extradition cases there is no conditional right to bail.[1] For international extradition cases bail is only granted under special circumstances[2] and Amanda Knox does not meet any of the condition that have been considered special circumstances by courts in the past.

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Extradition
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Offline corpusvile


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:05 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

max wrote:
Quote:
Bail During Extradition

Once Amanda Knox is arrested she will remain in detention for the remainder of the extradition process. For international extradition cases there is no conditional right to bail.[1] For international extradition cases bail is only granted under special circumstances[2] and Amanda Knox does not meet any of the condition that have been considered special circumstances by courts in the past.

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Extradition


That's awesome. Surprised I never caught that, but couldn't have read a better take on it Mua-) cl-) da-))
Cheers for the info.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:48 am   Post subject: ON EXTRADITION   

Fingers crossed on that, max :) I'm aware of the Wiki entry on extradition (I'm one of the lesser editors there :) but:

The link I posted showed a reciprocal understanding of international treaty obligations. That when the US makes a request for provisional arrest, it might not be granted except under specific conditions, like flight risk, etc. There can be a judicial review (see the article on 'judicial review') not of the Italian trial process of course, but bail CAN be allowed as I understand it.

Now you remind me, I'm going to have to look at the Wiki "It is reasonable to assume that the State Department will rubber stamp the surrender warrant as they do for the roughly thousand fugitives a year the United States extradites." because that is a bit fuzzy.

Perhaps the US deports a whole bunch of foreigners, maybe it even extradites more than a few permanent residents and fugitives, but it certainly doesn't extradite a thousand American citizens a year.

Sorry, but I have a fetish for accuracy, and while I'm quite happy to be proven wrong, I'm not entirely sure I am. We'll find out next year.

In the meantime, waiting patiently for news of Cassazione and ECHR. Of the latter, we only hear rumors, like Amanda Knox graduating :)
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:03 am   Post subject: HAS RAFFAELE SOLLECITO HIRED ANOTHER PR GURU?   

From ORG, there's a lady claiming to be his media tutor/PR person Here's what she had to say, in part: Chelece Tim

Quote:
Mister Pink:
Say, Chelece, Sollecito didn't by chance ask you to marry him?


Quote:
Chelece Tim:
"Firstly, why do you ask? Secondly, no he has not. Please do not fall into believing a story made up by a 17 year old girl to get some easy money and the rumor involving Amanda Knox which was thrown out there by FOA as they pretend they support Raffaele."


I'm feeling all neglected. Perhaps she can sign up at NET (unless she has already) and answer questions for Raffaele here too? ;)
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Offline corpusvile


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:50 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

She comes across as a weirdo. I think you dodged a bullet. :mrgreen:
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:22 am   Post subject: Re: HAS RAFFAELE SOLLECITO HIRED ANOTHER PR GURU?   

Ergon wrote:
From ORG, there's a lady claiming to be his media tutor/PR person Here's what she had to say, in part: Chelece Tim

Quote:
Mister Pink:
Say, Chelece, Sollecito didn't by chance ask you to marry him?


Quote:
Chelece Tim:
"Firstly, why do you ask? Secondly, no he has not. Please do not fall into believing a story made up by a 17 year old girl to get some easy money and the rumor involving Amanda Knox which was thrown out there by FOA as they pretend they support Raffaele."


I'm feeling all neglected. Perhaps she can sign up at NET (unless she has already) and answer questions for Raffaele here too? ;)



It looks to me, as though she's a starstruck groupie that has approached Sollecito and offered him her services as his amateur PR gal in the States. The title she offers for her role sounds rather grand, but in actual fact, Sollecito's REAL PR/media coaching guy is Eric Dezenhall and Chelece has simply volunteered her services to the cause, either because she's a true believer or because she thinks the Sollecito's are loaded. I don't think she's given up her day job for this, rather it's an extracurricular activity to her real job. It seems that Sollecito who doesn't want anyone speaking on his behalf has added her to his team to...ahem...speak on his behalf.

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Offline hugo


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:45 am   Post subject: Re: ON EXTRADITION   

Ergon wrote:
Fingers crossed on that, max :) I'm aware of the Wiki entry on extradition (I'm one of the lesser editors there :) but:

The link I posted showed a reciprocal understanding of international treaty obligations. That when the US makes a request for provisional arrest, it might not be granted except under specific conditions, like flight risk, etc. There can be a judicial review (see the article on 'judicial review') not of the Italian trial process of course, but bail CAN be allowed as I understand it.


I think provisional arrest is what they may or may not do before the extradition request is officially in place. It doesn't always happen and would be done in case of a particular flight risk. But once the request is formally filed, and accepted by the Department of Justice, arrest then follows, and bail is not usually granted: the US will always oppose it and it is only allowed on exceptional grounds. (Being pregnant won't do it, for instance.)
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I agree that usually is the case, hugo. Just wanted to watch out for the political and PR element. I was thinking about the Italian mobster in London whose extradition was halted because of an adverse ruling by ECHR. (Reported in the DM I think) That's why I've been following ECHR closely to see what developed there.

I do believe Amanda Knox will be extradited in the end.
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Offline corpusvile


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:10 pm   Post subject: Re: HAS RAFFAELE SOLLECITO HIRED ANOTHER PR GURU?   

Michael wrote:
Ergon wrote:
From ORG, there's a lady claiming to be his media tutor/PR person Here's what she had to say, in part: Chelece Tim

Quote:
Mister Pink:
Say, Chelece, Sollecito didn't by chance ask you to marry him?


Quote:
Chelece Tim:
"Firstly, why do you ask? Secondly, no he has not. Please do not fall into believing a story made up by a 17 year old girl to get some easy money and the rumor involving Amanda Knox which was thrown out there by FOA as they pretend they support Raffaele."


I'm feeling all neglected. Perhaps she can sign up at NET (unless she has already) and answer questions for Raffaele here too? ;)



It looks to me, as though she's a starstruck groupie that has approached Sollecito and offered him her services as his amateur PR gal in the States. The title she offers for her role sounds rather grand, but in actual fact, Sollecito's REAL PR/media coaching guy is Eric Dezenhall and Chelece has simply volunteered her services to the cause, either because she's a true believer or because she thinks the Sollecito's are loaded. I don't think she's given up her day job for this, rather it's an extracurricular activity to her real job. It seems that Sollecito who doesn't want anyone speaking on his behalf has added her to his team to...ahem...speak on his behalf.


She's apparently a Manga fan, so they probably met on some forum originally.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

It's a slam dunk that knox will be placed under arrest and incarcerated as soon as the extradition request is filed. Knox won't be being extradited for embezzlement, copyright piracy or fraud, it'll be for rape and murder. They won't be letting someone wanted for rape and murder kick their heels back on their sofa at home.

Final point. There is no mention of the ECHR (or any influence it may have) in the Italian/US extradition treaty. In any case, Knox's appeal to the ECHR is on a different matter (calunnia) to what she will be being extradited for (rape and murder).

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

The True Justice For Meredith Kercher website has a new post up on the Matteini Hearings http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php ... _hoax_10_/

Do have a look.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:12 pm   Post subject: EXTRADITION AND ECHR   

This is the extradition case I was referring to, Michael. Daily Mail Published: 11:00 GMT, 17 March 2014 | Updated: 02:01 GMT, 18 March 2014

Now we can't even deport a Mafia don to Italy: Their crowded jails 'would breach his human rights'
Quote:
-Domenico Rancadore, 65, held in London on European arrest warrants
-He had evaded Italian authorities for 20 years and was fighting his return
-He will today walk free after a ruling at Westminster Magistrates' Court

A Mafia don who has spent 20 years hiding in Britain cannot be deported to Italy because cramped prison conditions would breach his human rights, a judge ruled yesterday.

Domenico Rancadore has been living quietly in a London suburb since 1994 despite being sentenced to seven years in jail in his home country for running a branch of the Mafia involved in extortion, racketeering and drug trafficking.

But yesterday, Senior District Judge Howard Riddle ruled that Rancadore – one of Italy’s most wanted men – cannot be extradited due to a European Court of Human Rights ruling upheld in the High Court last week that chronic overcrowding in Italian jails breaches human rights laws.


Please note that while Knox indeed has an outstanding appeal with the ECHR on the calunnia charge, she will be filing another appeal to ECHR once the murder charges are confirmed.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:25 pm   Post subject: EXTRADITION AND ECHR   

He was re-arrested, of course: Daily Mail Published: 08:13 GMT, 5 April 2014 | Updated: 15:19 GMT, 5 April 2014

Quote:
Mafia fugitive dubbed the Godfather of Uxbridge remanded in custody after re-arrest over connections to Italian crime gang

Police re-arrest Mafia don Domenico Rancadore at his west London home

He is wanted in Italy for connections to the Cosa Nostra crime syndicate
The 65-year-old avoided extradition to his home country last month

British judge ruled prison conditions there would breach his human rights
First arrested last August after evading Italian authorities for 20 years
He was remanded in custody today after appearing before magistrates

Now faces at least a week in jail ahead of another extradition battle.


Haven't heard anything since, but I believe he was granted bail.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Exactly, he was re-arrested. And this was only about mafia connections, Knox stands convicted of rape and murder.

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Offline SwanseaJack


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I believe Knox's charge was sexually aggravated murder. The US are not governed by the ECHR so there is no reason for them to refuse extradition on similar grounds.
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Offline hugo


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:27 pm   Post subject: Re: EXTRADITION AND ECHR   

Ergon wrote:
He was re-arrested, of course: Daily Mail Published: 08:13 GMT, 5 April 2014 | Updated: 15:19 GMT, 5 April 2014

Quote:
Mafia fugitive dubbed the Godfather of Uxbridge remanded in custody after re-arrest over connections to Italian crime gang

Police re-arrest Mafia don Domenico Rancadore at his west London home

He is wanted in Italy for connections to the Cosa Nostra crime syndicate
The 65-year-old avoided extradition to his home country last month

British judge ruled prison conditions there would breach his human rights
First arrested last August after evading Italian authorities for 20 years
He was remanded in custody today after appearing before magistrates

Now faces at least a week in jail ahead of another extradition battle.


Haven't heard anything since, but I believe he was granted bail.


Low flight risk, due to age and heart condition; electronic tag; no travel outside the M25 (London's orbital motorway); and he's still facing extradition under a fresh European Arrest Warrant. Something not dissimilar can happen in the US -- if the courts refuse the request, the requesting country can simply re-file. And the US is not a signatory to the European Convention, so there's no ECHR get-out.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Interesting find by Tony Man on Twitter:




European Court of Human Rights News



Decision Horvath v. Belgium (6224/07) Hungarian citizen denied translation/interpretation in criminal proceedings : inadmissible


http://echrnews.wordpress.com/2012/09/14/horvath/


Therefore, one of Knox's claims to the ECHR can be seen in advance to be going nowhere. This then, would leave Knox only with her claim that her rights were abused by not having a lawyer.

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Offline dgfred


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Haha, Francisco says that not one from the guilt side would say what they have said to him/her on the internet to his/her face.

Lucky for him/her... not likely to meet any of us. Sadly for his/her point, he/she is mistaken.

I will be at some Carolina Hurricane games this year... if he/she likes hockey a little ;) .
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:29 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I don't see how any judge will ever grant bail to a convicted murderer. That is not just about a flight risk, but it is danger to the public if a murderer is out on the streets. So I am more interested to see what the procedure is immediately after the conviction becomes final. To minimize the risk of a murderer being outside, I would expect an immediate request for a provisional arrest. Within days I suppose, maybe even 24 hours?
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:48 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

max wrote:
I don't see how any judge will ever grant bail to a convicted murderer. That is not just about a flight risk, but it is danger to the public if a murderer is out on the streets. So I am more interested to see what the procedure is immediately after the conviction becomes final. To minimize the risk of a murderer being outside, I would expect an immediate request for a provisional arrest. Within days I suppose, maybe even 24 hours?


Perhaps a little longer, as the courts can't issue the request themselves directly. They have to go via the Italian justice ministry (so Government in other words). But certainly, I think we would be talking about days rather then weeks.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:34 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Raffaele Sollecito "PR agent" Chelece Tim has now appeared on IIP, LOL. Ask Me About My Relationship With Raffaele Sollecito :)

Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011
Post by Chelece » Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:30 pm

Quote:
You all could always ask me directly what my function is and I could always answer whichever questions don't infringe on Raffaele's privacy, for whom I do work and whom I have met. I hope I can shed some light...
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:36 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Am I the only one that didn't know Knox had a ticket to China on her when she was arrested?

Image


https://twitter.com/mzbecc/status/50193 ... 60/photo/1

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Offline corpusvile


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:39 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
Raffaele Sollecito "PR agent" Chelece Tim has now appeared on IIP, LOL. Ask Me About My Relationship With Raffaele Sollecito :)

Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011
Post by Chelece » Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:30 pm

Quote:
You all could always ask me directly what my function is and I could always answer whichever questions don't infringe on Raffaele's privacy, for whom I do work and whom I have met. I hope I can shed some light...


Lol, yeah I saw that earlier. I suspect she's a glorified troll & creepy fan of his actually.
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Offline corpusvile


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:41 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael wrote:
Am I the only one that didn't know Knox had a ticket to China on her when she was arrested?

Image


https://twitter.com/mzbecc/status/50193 ... 60/photo/1


I wasn't aware of that actually. Has this been confirmed or is it simply Raff bs'ng?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:15 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

corpusville wrote:
I wasn't aware of that actually. Has this been confirmed or is it simply Raff bs'ng?


Well, it's put in there quite innocently with no big deal made about it at a time when he was not throwing Knox under the bus, so I don't see why it would be a thing he would have made up. All that comes over is his jealousy about it and we know Sollecito's a very jealous/possessive guy, so that lends it the ring of truth. Of course, he may well have been simply "mistaken" but he was in the best placed position to know about the ticket at the time. What I'd really like to know, if this ticket actually existed, is the actual date it was booked for and the date she bought it. Certainly, her own silence up until now about this little fact is quite interesting.

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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:38 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I've used Steve Moore's own words to highlight his ignorance of the most basic facts of the case i.e. it was a woman's DNA on the bra clasp, not Sollecito's, and to show that he can't be trusted i.e. he wasn't writing a book and we wouldn't hear from him again once Amanda Knox was home. He's spouted his nonsense on CNN, NBC and ABC as well as King 5 in Seattle.

https://twitter.com/harryrag/status/501879421079678976

https://twitter.com/harryrag/status/501878956552126466

https://twitter.com/harryrag/status/501881517401210880

https://twitter.com/harryrag/status/501880416580952064

Hopefully this Walter Mitty fantasist won't be appearing in the mainstream media ever again.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 2:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

"For the man would be a cuckold"

what is he, Shakespeare

For fcuk's sake!

No he would be a ccok and he is, yes for you are, sìr... Mr Sollecito, a Pkicr.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 4:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Andrea Vogt has a brand new Doco on the case airing on Italian TV next week.

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Offline corpusvile


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael wrote:
corpusville wrote:
I wasn't aware of that actually. Has this been confirmed or is it simply Raff bs'ng?


Well, it's put in there quite innocently with no big deal made about it at a time when he was not throwing Knox under the bus, so I don't see why it would be a thing he would have made up. All that comes over is his jealousy about it and we know Sollecito's a very jealous/possessive guy, so that lends it the ring of truth. Of course, he may well have been simply "mistaken" but he was in the best placed position to know about the ticket at the time. What I'd really like to know, if this ticket actually existed, is the actual date it was booked for and the date she bought it. Certainly, her own silence up until now about this little fact is quite interesting.

That is an interesting point re her silence actually. I think I may have read that she wanted to meet her ex in China, but whether she got a ticket or not is something I'm not sure on especially if she was burning through coke at the time.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

The ticket would also explain where some of her money went.

And you can see exactly why the Melloxes and Knox were reluctance to mention the existence of that ticket, in order to explain where some of her money went.

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Offline corpusvile


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Can you elaborate on this? I'm probably missing something obvious but I would have thought they'd put a spin on it saying she'd diligently saved and was planning to go to China for cultural blah blah, as opposed to leaving this out, when the drug angle leaked?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Knox's bank records show that she burned through cash during her time in Berlin and Italy, in a way her self-described lifestyle there doesn't adequately explain. A lot of money was spent and not accounted for.

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Offline corpusvile


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ah gotcha thanks for the clarification.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael wrote:
Andrea Vogt has a brand new Doco on the case airing on Italian TV next week.


Thanks for the heads up about the new docu, Michael. But is it really NEW, or just a subtitled version of the old documentary that was shown on BBC3 back in February?

http://www.perugiamurderfile.net/viewtopic.php?p=119358#p119358

Andrea Vogt @andreavogt · 18h

Quote:
The only updated, in-depth #meredithkercher docu airs nxt Tues 21:00 in #Italy on "Giallo" (Discovery) #amandaknox http://www.giallotv.it/serie/amanda-kno ... innocente/


GIALLO: http://www.giallotv.it/serie/amanda-knox-colpevole-o-innocente/

Quote:
"AMANDA KNOX: GUILTY OR INNOCENT?", An exclusive documentary that reconstructs the main facts about the murder of Perugia through the testimonies of the people involved.

Tuesday, August 26th at 21:00 for the first time hear the audio recording of the interrogation in prison of Amanda Knox...
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:20 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael wrote:
corpusville wrote:
I wasn't aware of that actually. Has this been confirmed or is it simply Raff bs'ng?


Well, it's put in there quite innocently with no big deal made about it at a time when he was not throwing Knox under the bus, so I don't see why it would be a thing he would have made up. All that comes over is his jealousy about it and we know Sollecito's a very jealous/possessive guy, so that lends it the ring of truth. Of course, he may well have been simply "mistaken" but he was in the best placed position to know about the ticket at the time. What I'd really like to know, if this ticket actually existed, is the actual date it was booked for and the date she bought it. Certainly, her own silence up until now about this little fact is quite interesting.


Good catch. I hadn't even noticed this.

Their books were so boring that it was difficult to stay concentrated and pay attention to details.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:54 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Guermantes wrote:
Thanks for the heads up about the new docu, Michael. But is it really NEW, or just a subtitled version of the old documentary that was shown on BBC3 back in February?


Hi G. Yeah, I think you may be right.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:57 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Nell wrote:
Good catch. I hadn't even noticed this.

Their books were so boring that it was difficult to stay concentrated and pay attention to details.



I left the pain of having to read them to others and just hoped they'd give me a heads up if there was anything interesting among all the dross, drivel and "Me, Me, Me" :)

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:13 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael wrote:
Nell wrote:
Good catch. I hadn't even noticed this.

Their books were so boring that it was difficult to stay concentrated and pay attention to details.



I left the pain of having to read them to others and just hoped they'd give me a heads up if there was anything interesting among all the dross, drivel and "Me, Me, Me" :)


I believe you are not the only one who did this. Even the few who read it complained all the time how difficult it was to stay awake.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:44 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I just want to say something. Reading the FOAKers, they like to try and make out in regard to us and them, that we are simply opposites of the same coin. We are not opposites of the same coin. We are a completely different currency.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:11 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Nell wrote:
Michael wrote:
corpusville wrote:
I wasn't aware of that actually. Has this been confirmed or is it simply Raff bs'ng?


Well, it's put in there quite innocently with no big deal made about it at a time when he was not throwing Knox under the bus, so I don't see why it would be a thing he would have made up. All that comes over is his jealousy about it and we know Sollecito's a very jealous/possessive guy, so that lends it the ring of truth. Of course, he may well have been simply "mistaken" but he was in the best placed position to know about the ticket at the time. What I'd really like to know, if this ticket actually existed, is the actual date it was booked for and the date she bought it. Certainly, her own silence up until now about this little fact is quite interesting.


Good catch. I hadn't even noticed this.

Their books were so boring that it was difficult to stay concentrated and pay attention to details.


It's also worth noting that Knox grabbed her passport before leaving the cottage. Even though, reading the things Knox said and wrote after the murder, she appeared to believe they would be able to return to the cottage and go on living there. Sooo, we have a passport + plane ticket out of the country to another continent.

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Offline johnnyyen


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Heather Mack vs Amanda Knox

Daughter accused of body in suitcase murder called her lawyer BEFORE her arrest as lawyer compares her to Amanda Knox 16 August 2014



Attorney Michael Elkin said he heard from a tearful Heather Mack before police found her mother's body in a suitcase

Told MailOnline Elkin sounded 'numb'

Mack, 19, and boyfriend Tommy Schaefer, 21, face death by firing squad if found guilty of murder

Heather's claims that she is pregnant have been confirmed as true

Elkin 'itching' to fly to Bali to help Mack

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z3AqDPHB75


Heather Mack compared to Amanda Knox

Posted on August 17, 2014 by Chelsea Hoffman via Crime Scene Media

Heather Mack, 19, is suspected in the beating mother of her mother Sheila von Weise Mack, and has been in custody in Indonesia since her body was found stuffed in a suitcase. She and her boyfriend are accused of beating the woman to death -- and she faces the death penalty by firing squad. That's the story in a nutshell, and really should be as cut-and-dry as that. However, Mack's Chicago lawyer Micahel D. Elkin is now comparing the accused killer to Amanda Knox, who as everyone knows has been convicted of murder.

Is this going to be the next trend in dealing with female killers -- comparing them to Amanda Knox in hopes of convincing people that they're innocent? If Elkin wanted to take a page out of the Knox playbook he'd hire a PR firm and work on Heather's public image here in the states beyond simply comparing her to someone that is most likely actually guilty of murder.


http://www.crimescenemedia.com/2014/08/ ... IseR6.dpuf

The FOAKers really hate this story! It totally destroys their "Angel Face-in-an-evil-foreign-land" argument.

em) Mua-)
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Offline corpusvile


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Why won't I be surprised if a thread highlighting the railroading of the innocent girl by the bumbling Indonesian police appears on IIP? Seeing as the Knox train is starting to run outa gravy...
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Offline ttrroonniicc


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 5:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Steve Moore lying on CNN "53 hours" etc



picture of a pumpkin
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 5:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Many of us read the passage in Honor Bound by Raffaele Sollecito that Knox had bought a ticket to be with her boy friend in China but didn’t think of it at the time because no ticket was found. Maybe it was planned but she didn’t buy one? But yes, she was a flight risk, and credit to Judge Matteini for picking up on it.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 5:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Testing:



Those having trouble posting YouTube Videos, just remove the "s" in http from the url, paste between the YouTube tags.

(Or YouTube800WSHD)
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Offline corpusvile


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

No matter how many times I watch that video it never fails to crack me up, with Gmoo all shrill & excited & Callan calmly giving him enough rope to hang himself, by not even getting Callan's occupation right and mistaking an appellate for a second trial. Callan also looks like he's biting his cheeks to prevent himself going off into gales of laughter. :lol:
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

ttrroonniicc wrote:
Steve Moore lying on CNN "53 hours" etc



picture of a pumpkin
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Hi ttrroonniicc,

I added Steve Moore's appearance on CNN's OutFront here with transcripts and the reaction of his wife afterwards.

Michelle Moore later accused Paul Callan to have been briefed by the Kerchers prior to his interview and been misled, a claim that Paul Callan denied.

Steve Moore maked a number of false claims in his interviews with Erin Burnett:

During his appearance on January 30, 2014, Steve Moore claimed

- the double-DNA knife had been "thrown out"
- the double-DNA knife did not have the victim's DNA on the blade
- the double-DNA knife could not have been the murder weapon because "disorganised murderers" don't bring their own props nor keep the murder weapon
- the knife did not fit the wounds
- the questioning lasted 53 hours
- Amanda Knox was denied food and water
- Amanda Knox was slapped during questioning
- the bra claps was recovered from a released crime scene

During his appearance on January 31, 2014, Steve Moore claimed

- the police of Perugia asked the police in Milan to release Rudy Guede without charges, give him back his knife and send him back to Perugia
- the police framed Amanda Knox to "save their butts"
- the Supreme Court is part of this conspiracy helping the Perugian police trying to save face by framing 2 innocent people

All these lies in two short interviews each around 5 minutes long!
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

corpusvile wrote:
No matter how many times I watch that video it never fails to crack me up, with Gmoo all shrill & excited & Callan calmly giving him enough rope to hang himself, by not even getting Callan's occupation right and mistaking an appellate for a second trial. Callan also looks like he's biting his cheeks to prevent himself going off into gales of laughter. :lol:


Both, Paul Callan and Erin Burnett, laugh at Steve Moore's claims.

Erin Burnett can be heard laughing when Steve Moore says Amanda Knox's cartwheels at the police station were yoga moves to end the stress and Paul Callan can be heard laughing when Steve Moore says he could make him confess to a murder given he had 53 hours to slap him around.

Steve Moore was also wrong to claim Callan's profession had been wrongly attributed. It did not say "detective", it said "CNN Legal Analyst" and "Former NYC Homicide Prosecutor. True to form, he has trouble admitting his mistake and blames it on someone else.

Michelle Moore went crazy on Twitter after the interview because people just would not stop making fun of him.

I find it most remarkable how he jabbs the pen into the empty space in front of his face, apparently unaware how silly that makes him look.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:20 pm   Post subject: MORE GILL DNA   

Funny that Gill met Vecchiotti at a conference guided by Vincenzo Pascali in Rome 2012. This is where he was given the Conti-Vecchiotti report that formed the basis of his writing on the case.

From Barbie Nadeau's Angel Face p. 154:

Quote:
(Raffaele Sollecito's) Forensic expert Vincenzo Pascali quit in May, leaving a big hole in the Sollecito team---and a 50,000-euro bill for services rendered. He had been hired to discredit the bra-clasp evidence. But when he started hinting that in his own findings, the sample also contained Knox's DNA, Bongiorno objected. Introducing Amanda's DNA in the specimen would only making things worse, tying them to the crime scene. Instaed, she wanted Pascali to focus on contamination, even though it was unlikely that the clasp had been contaminated with Raffaele's DNA just because it wasn't collected in a timely manner. Unwilling to testify according to the lawyer's script, Pascali walked off the case. He was replaced by Francesco Introna, an old friend of Raffaele's father.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Andrea Vogt: The only updated, in-depth #meredithkercher docu airs nxt Tues 21:00 in #Italy on "Giallo" (Discovery) #amandaknox https://twitter.com/andreavogt/status/5 ... 8244776960

http://t.co/D72F058l0y

(Google translation of above page)

Quote:
Distribution: BBC3
With:

David Balding, if the same DNA Specialist
Walter Biscotti, himself, Attorney Rudy Guede
Guilia Bongiorno, herself, lawyer for Raffaele Sollecito
Anne Bremner, herself, a friend of Amanda
Sarah Gino, herself, Forensic Biologist

In ABSOLUTE FIRST TV on YELLOW "AMANDA KNOX: GUILTY OR INNOCENT?" An exclusive documentary that reconstructs the main facts about the murder of Perugia through the testimonies of the people involved.

Tuesday, August 26th at 21:00 for the first time hear the audio recording of the interrogation in prison for Amanda Knox, the main protagonist of a terrible incident that took away the breath of 3 nations.

On the night of November 1, 2007, British student Meredith Kercher in Italy for an Erasmus at the University of Perugia, is found dead with her throat cut in her bedroom in the house she shared with other students. The cause of death: hemorrhage as a result of a deep wound to the neck.

For the murder has been convicted by a final expedited the Ivorian citizen Rudy Guede and in the first instance, as accomplices in the murder, the American Amanda Knox and Italian Raffaele Sollecito. This judgment was overturned on appeal with the acquittal of the two "sweethearts", later re-sentenced by the Supreme Court.

Retrace in detail the judicial process to appeal a judgment of 30 January, all enriched by forensic reconstructions and interviews with the major figures involved in the case not to mention the story of Amanda slanderous accusation connected to Patrick Lumumba initially blamed the murder on the same student and then judged entirely unconnected with the facts.
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Offline corpusvile


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:09 pm   Post subject: Re: MORE GILL DNA   

Ergon wrote:
Funny that Gill met Vecchiotti at a conference guided by Vincenzo Pascali in Rome 2012. This is where he was given the Conti-Vecchiotti report that formed the basis of his writing on the case.

From Barbie Nadeau's Angel Face p. 154:

Quote:
(Raffaele Sollecito's) Forensic expert Vincenzo Pascali quit in May, leaving a big hole in the Sollecito team---and a 50,000-euro bill for services rendered. He had been hired to discredit the bra-clasp evidence. But when he started hinting that in his own findings, the sample also contained Knox's DNA, Bongiorno objected. Introducing Amanda's DNA in the specimen would only making things worse, tying them to the crime scene. Instaed, she wanted Pascali to focus on contamination, even though it was unlikely that the clasp had been contaminated with Raffaele's DNA just because it wasn't collected in a timely manner. Unwilling to testify according to the lawyer's script, Pascali walked off the case. He was replaced by Francesco Introna, an old friend of Raffaele's father.


Yet another crazy Monster of Florence connection along with Brizioli. Introna is also a pal of Mario Spezi and features in his and Preston's book, in which Introna givs Spezi a helpful hand regarding the TOD of the last two MOF victims.
http://insufficienzadiprove.blogspot.ie/2009/04/francesco-introna.html
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Offline corpusvile


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Nell wrote:
corpusvile wrote:
No matter how many times I watch that video it never fails to crack me up, with Gmoo all shrill & excited & Callan calmly giving him enough rope to hang himself, by not even getting Callan's occupation right and mistaking an appellate for a second trial. Callan also looks like he's biting his cheeks to prevent himself going off into gales of laughter. :lol:


Both, Paul Callan and Erin Burnett, laugh at Steve Moore's claims.

Erin Burnett can be heard laughing when Steve Moore says Amanda Knox's cartwheels at the police station were yoga moves to end the stress and Paul Callan can be heard laughing when Steve Moore says he could make him confess to a murder given he had 53 hours to slap him around.

Steve Moore was also wrong to claim Callan's profession had been wrongly attributed. It did not say "detective", it said "CNN Legal Analyst" and "Former NYC Homicide Prosecutor. True to form, he has trouble admitting his mistake and blames it on someone else.

Michelle Moore went crazy on Twitter after the interview because people just would not stop making fun of him.

I find it most remarkable how he jabbs the pen into the empty space in front of his face, apparently unaware how silly that makes him look.


Lol thanks for the second transcript, that cracked me up also. Gmoo interrupting three times: "I can answer that!". :lol:
Callan nailed him with his question on how could everything about the case be wrong which was what always bemused me about FOA objections. Not one or two elements but every single aspect.
Except regarding Guede- everything the cops did in his case was spot on 100% textbook correct & good work officers! :mrgreen:
Mimoo's ranting was icing on the cake. Luckily we won't have to put up with them for much longer once their precious killer is extradited. tt-)
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

It looks like the Monster Of Florence case will never see the inside of a court room, corpusvile. It was too easy to dismiss the prosecutors who suggested it was a cult like murder, as if popular culture isn't rife with stories like this.

But there are many intertwined roots between the two cases.
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Offline corpusvile


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 12:29 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Indeed and it's pretty tragic how justice apparently won't be served for the victims and their families.
So far we have several players in the MOF case attached to the defence. Francesco Bruno, who first mooted an occult themed hypothesis in a profile for the SISDE/Italian secret service in 1984, as a defence consultant for Sollecito, Narducci family lawyer Alfredo Brizioli- who was up in court with Spezi, only for the statutes of limitations to expire- helping Raff out with that bothersome callunnia charge & Francesco Introna for the defence who also attached credence to Spezi's theory via examining larvae on the bodies of the last two MOF victims and who happens to be a pal of Raff's dad, who in a country which takes defamation seriously is still given the nickname "The urologist to the Dons".
Dunno why the cops' suspicions were dismissed either. One only need to look at Richard Ramirez aka The Night Stalker, Robin Gecht & the so-called Chicago Ripper Crew and Miami serial killer Adolfo De jesus Constanzo- whose cult members included the head of Mexico's interpol as well as several other police officers, not to mention a Russian group in 2008 to see that criminals using occult themed trappings to fuel their pathology have existed before & unfortunately are not unique.
That having said, their suspicions appear to be ridiculed only by the likes of Preston et al, as from what I've seen of the Italian mainstream media, the suspicion was at least examined in a sober manner.
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Offline Brogan


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 12:57 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
Many of us read the passage in Honor Bound by Raffaele Sollecito that Knox had bought a ticket to be with her boy friend in China but didn’t think of it at the time because no ticket was found. Maybe it was planned but she didn’t buy one? But yes, she was a flight risk, and credit to Judge Matteini for picking up on it.


She would have had to plan a trip to China about a month in advance as she would have to have a visa prior to departure and that probably would have entailed a trip to the Chinese Embassy Rome.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 2:27 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Nell wrote:
ttrroonniicc wrote:
Steve Moore lying on CNN "53 hours" etc



picture of a pumpkin
This Post has been edited by a Moderator
Details: To attach the video


Hi ttrroonniicc,

I added Steve Moore's appearance on CNN's OutFront here with transcripts and the reaction of his wife afterwards.

Michelle Moore later accused Paul Callan to have been briefed by the Kerchers prior to his interview and been misled, a claim that Paul Callan denied.

Steve Moore maked a number of false claims in his interviews with Erin Burnett:

During his appearance on January 30, 2014, Steve Moore claimed

- the double-DNA knife had been "thrown out"
- the double-DNA knife did not have the victim's DNA on the blade
- the double-DNA knife could not have been the murder weapon because "disorganised murderers" don't bring their own props nor keep the murder weapon
- the knife did not fit the wounds
- the questioning lasted 53 hours
- Amanda Knox was denied food and water
- Amanda Knox was slapped during questioning
- the bra claps was recovered from a released crime scene

During his appearance on January 31, 2014, Steve Moore claimed

- the police of Perugia asked the police in Milan to release Rudy Guede without charges, give him back his knife and send him back to Perugia
- the police framed Amanda Knox to "save their butts"
- the Supreme Court is part of this conspiracy helping the Perugian police trying to save face by framing 2 innocent people

All these lies in two short interviews each around 5 minutes long!



Steve where am I gonna get a job Now anymore, said, knife that committed the crime but no knife or gun can commit a crime, only people do that.


F#cuing idiot.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 2:30 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Baldie was very good, almost, except for saying Meredith had been stabbed 40 times.

She might as well have been, in this it doesn't matter, the main points he "calmly'' raised were good.
He did not interrupt at all, then calmly showed Moore for the fool he most certainly appears to be.

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 3:40 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

corpusvile wrote:
Indeed and it's pretty tragic how justice apparently won't be served for the victims and their families.
So far we have several players in the MOF case attached to the defence. Francesco Bruno, who first mooted an occult themed hypothesis in a profile for the SISDE/Italian secret service in 1984, as a defence consultant for Sollecito, Narducci family lawyer Alfredo Brizioli- who was up in court with Spezi, only for the statutes of limitations to expire- helping Raff out with that bothersome callunnia charge & Francesco Introna for the defence who also attached credence to Spezi's theory via examining larvae on the bodies of the last two MOF victims and who happens to be a pal of Raff's dad, who in a country which takes defamation seriously is still given the nickname "The urologist to the Dons".
Dunno why the cops' suspicions were dismissed either. One only need to look at Richard Ramirez aka The Night Stalker, Robin Gecht & the so-called Chicago Ripper Crew and Miami serial killer Adolfo De jesus Constanzo- whose cult members included the head of Mexico's interpol as well as several other police officers, not to mention a Russian group in 2008 to see that criminals using occult themed trappings to fuel their pathology have existed before & unfortunately are not unique.
That having said, their suspicions appear to be ridiculed only by the likes of Preston et al, as from what I've seen of the Italian mainstream media, the suspicion was at least examined in a sober manner.



There IS a reason why PM Giuliano Mignini and Inspector Michele Giuttari are respected in Italy, corpusvile. It still is an uphill battle getting the truth out.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 3:53 am   Post subject: THE FACE OF AN ANGEL MOVIE   

Barbie Nadeau has written about the movie based on her book, directed by Michael Winterbottom, and starring Daniel Bruhl, Kate Beckinsale, and Carla Delavigne http://www.theguardian.com/film/filmblo ... manda-knox

There are some comments from the usual suspects. Hope you will read what she wrote and be fair in your comments. I think people will be touched by the movie itself, and, knowing what she went through, more than most of you, keep that in mind. She doesn't have to be your standard bearer, and I for one will always be grateful for her book that introduced me to the case.

And, it's a movie. I love Michael Winterbottom, but can't comment on something I haven't seen yet. And when I do, I will judge it for its art, and, nothing else.
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Offline corpusvile


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:20 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
corpusvile wrote:
Indeed and it's pretty tragic how justice apparently won't be served for the victims and their families.
So far we have several players in the MOF case attached to the defence. Francesco Bruno, who first mooted an occult themed hypothesis in a profile for the SISDE/Italian secret service in 1984, as a defence consultant for Sollecito, Narducci family lawyer Alfredo Brizioli- who was up in court with Spezi, only for the statutes of limitations to expire- helping Raff out with that bothersome callunnia charge & Francesco Introna for the defence who also attached credence to Spezi's theory via examining larvae on the bodies of the last two MOF victims and who happens to be a pal of Raff's dad, who in a country which takes defamation seriously is still given the nickname "The urologist to the Dons".
Dunno why the cops' suspicions were dismissed either. One only need to look at Richard Ramirez aka The Night Stalker, Robin Gecht & the so-called Chicago Ripper Crew and Miami serial killer Adolfo De jesus Constanzo- whose cult members included the head of Mexico's interpol as well as several other police officers, not to mention a Russian group in 2008 to see that criminals using occult themed trappings to fuel their pathology have existed before & unfortunately are not unique.
That having said, their suspicions appear to be ridiculed only by the likes of Preston et al, as from what I've seen of the Italian mainstream media, the suspicion was at least examined in a sober manner.



There IS a reason why PM Giuliano Mignini and Inspector Michele Giuttari are respected in Italy, corpusvile. It still is an uphill battle getting the truth out.


I have a healthy respect for Giuttari in particuolar after reading into the case but tbh mate, I can't ever see the whole truth re the MOF coming out fully. I suspect certain elements within the Italian authorities simply wish to be shut of the case at this stage. Which again is pretty tragic.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:45 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

corpusvile wrote:
Nell wrote:
corpusvile wrote:
No matter how many times I watch that video it never fails to crack me up, with Gmoo all shrill & excited & Callan calmly giving him enough rope to hang himself, by not even getting Callan's occupation right and mistaking an appellate for a second trial. Callan also looks like he's biting his cheeks to prevent himself going off into gales of laughter. :lol:


Both, Paul Callan and Erin Burnett, laugh at Steve Moore's claims.

Erin Burnett can be heard laughing when Steve Moore says Amanda Knox's cartwheels at the police station were yoga moves to end the stress and Paul Callan can be heard laughing when Steve Moore says he could make him confess to a murder given he had 53 hours to slap him around.

Steve Moore was also wrong to claim Callan's profession had been wrongly attributed. It did not say "detective", it said "CNN Legal Analyst" and "Former NYC Homicide Prosecutor. True to form, he has trouble admitting his mistake and blames it on someone else.

Michelle Moore went crazy on Twitter after the interview because people just would not stop making fun of him.

I find it most remarkable how he jabbs the pen into the empty space in front of his face, apparently unaware how silly that makes him look.


Lol thanks for the second transcript, that cracked me up also. Gmoo interrupting three times: "I can answer that!". :lol:
Callan nailed him with his question on how could everything about the case be wrong which was what always bemused me about FOA objections. Not one or two elements but every single aspect.
Except regarding Guede- everything the cops did in his case was spot on 100% textbook correct & good work officers! :mrgreen:
Mimoo's ranting was icing on the cake. Luckily we won't have to put up with them for much longer once their precious killer is extradited. tt-)


Hi Corpusvile,

The transcripts are for those who cannot stand seeing the guy. It puts many people off and they never get around watching it. So the transcripts are a little workaround.


After the show, Paul Callan retweeted a few tweets that mocked Steve Moore which again provoked Michelle Moore's anger.

Image


Later Michelle Moore would try to get a sympathy vote from Callan "informing" him that someone allegedly wrote a comment on Twitter in his name or pretending to be him. Paul Callan replied with a short tweet saying it has nothing to do with him. Steve Moore quickly offered to "look into this".

Image


Another memorable moment was when Michelle Moore accused Paul Callan to have been misled by the Kerchers.

Apparently only if your name ends with Moore you are allowed to have an opinion regarding this case.

Image
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:57 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

zorba wrote:
I gonna get a job Now anymore, said, knife that committed the crime but no knife or gun can commit a crime, only people do that.


F#cuing idiot.


I thought the wording was odd too for the same reason. The knife does not commit the crime, it is used by the person who commits the crime as a tool.

We should not be too harsh though, he is not a wordsmith. So maybe it is unintentional. Stupid, but unintentional.


In this video he avoids at all cost to name Meredith Kercher, or maybe he has forgotten her name. Who knows?

Watch Steve Moore struggle at minute 4:51: “... the woman that ... uh ... who is the victim”

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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 12:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Nell wrote:
During his appearance on January 31, 2014, Steve Moore claimed

- the police of Perugia asked the police in Milan to release Rudy Guede without charges, give him back his knife and send him back to Perugia
- the police framed Amanda Knox to "save their butts"
- the Supreme Court is part of this conspiracy helping the Perugian police trying to save face by framing 2 innocent people


I remember Steve Moore claiming the Italian Supreme Court is part of the conspiracy, but I can't find the video for this interview or a transcript of for it. I need the verbatim quote from Steve Moore for a project I'm currently working on.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 12:47 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

The Machine wrote:
Nell wrote:
During his appearance on January 31, 2014, Steve Moore claimed

- the police of Perugia asked the police in Milan to release Rudy Guede without charges, give him back his knife and send him back to Perugia
- the police framed Amanda Knox to "save their butts"
- the Supreme Court is part of this conspiracy helping the Perugian police trying to save face by framing 2 innocent people


I remember Steve Moore claiming the Italian Supreme Court is part of the conspiracy, but I can't find the video for this interview or a transcript of for it. I need the verbatim quote from Steve Moore for a project I'm currently working on.


Hi Machine,

It is in the second transcript, from Steve Moore's appearance on CNN's OutFront on the 31st of January:

Quote:
Paul Callan: “And now … and they got the Supreme Court of Italy involved in this conspiracy? You know, that’s like saying that … [Steve Moore interrupts]”

Steve Moore: “Yes, they do. Yes, they do. You are being naive. You don’t understand the Italian system. You don’t understand it. You are defending something you don’t understand.”


It's at the very end of the video.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 2:41 pm   Post subject: Re: CONTACTING THE BBC RE GILL   

Ergon wrote:
I sent the following tweets to Ruth Alexander of the BBC yesterday:

Naseer Ahmad BBC 3:00 PM - 15 Aug 2014
‏@manfromatlan @Ruth__Alexander Re http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26338637 … Did Peter Gill say the box the knife was transported in was sent to #MeredithKercher? Pls respond

Naseer Ahmad BBC 3:02 PM - 15 Aug 2014
‏@manfromatlan @Ruth__Alexander Because that isn't true. So, was Professor Gill quoted correctly here? Please respond, hope to discuss w/you

Note: this was to enquire about this quote from Gill reported here on the BBC website BBC magazine

Quote:
The amount of Meredith's DNA found on the blade of the knife at Sollecito's flat is a tiny, Gill says, and it wasn't treated with the care you would expect of forensic scientists. At one point it was transported in a cardboard box posted to Meredith, and could possibly have become contaminated.


Please note this contrasts with the BBC radio news report earlier this year which came out much more strongly in favour of the contamination scenario.

In the magazine, Ruth Alexander is a lot more fair. She writes:

Quote:
The prosecution says DNA evidence also puts Sollecito and Knox at the scene of the crime. Sollecito's DNA was found on Meredith's bra clasp. Knox's DNA was found on the handle of a knife from Sollecito's kitchen, while Meredith's DNA was found on the blade.

Sollecito tells me this cannot possibly be the case, but two independent experts who have analysed the evidence told me it indisputably is.


So, even if she later says:

Quote:
However, it occurs to me that he might be focusing on the wrong thing, because the important question is - how did the DNA get there? It is possible that it was a case of "innocent transfer", according to the founding father of DNA profiling, Professor Peter Gill.

Sollecito visited the flat shared by Knox and Meredith as Knox's boyfriend before the murder, so it's likely his DNA was present elsewhere in the house, Gill points out. The forensic officers didn't collect the bra clasp for 46 days and it had been moved from its original position at the crime scene - so it's possible Sollecito's DNA had been accidentally transferred to the clasp.


I have to accept her view as honestly held, especially as her source is Professor Gill. But I still have to correct the record, the knife was NOT "transported in a shoe box belonging to Meredith".

I hope to hear back from her.


Hi Ergon,

I am wondering about this contamination issue raised by Prof. Peter Gill.

In his book, he does not say that the box in which the knife has been transported had been in contact with Meredith at all, but he does suggest that DNA loss or relocation can occur through container walls.

That's a bit of a stretch. How is Meredith's DNA supposed to be on the container walls of the shoe box?

As another option for innocent transfer he writes that items might have been examined "close to each other".

Ergon's quotes made the book look much better than it was. I find the lack of research by Prof. Peter Gill quite shocking for a man of his reputation.

Quote:
Misleading DNA Evidence: Reasons For Miscarriages of Justice

Kindle Edition Loc 3923 of 4675

5.15 Final Remarks

[…]

It was highlighted that significant attention to detail was required when exhibits were transported to the laboratory. Other possible cross contamination routes include examination of items in close proximity to each other (e.g., Adam Scott, Jama). One of the experiments carried out by Goray included a study on the effect of transportation of knives in cardboard tubes. Apart from DNA loss by transfer to the container walls, it was shown that the DNA was redistributed so that profiles on the blade ended up on the handle and vice versa. Recall that the knife item 36 was repackaged in a shoe box that was not DNA free (and it is unknown what it previously contained). There was opportunity for DNA to transfer from the walls of the shoe box to the knife, and vice versa. This important finding by Goray et al. is also highly significant with respect to the conclusion of the Massei report claiming that the distribution of DNA on the knife supported the hypothesis of stabbing motion.

In a wider context, as DNA profiling methods have become more sensitive, there is naturally a desire to reopen unsolved cases in the hope that DNA evidence can be used to “solve crimes.” Many of these cases predate DNA profiling when it was commonplace for items to be examined together and to be kept together in large paper bags. However, Goray also shows that these conditions are ideal to allow transfer of DNA within and between packages. Therefore, this places serious constraints on interpretation where there are distinct possibilities that such transfers can have occurred.

[...]

---

Bibliography

Goray M. van Oorschot R, Mitchell J. DNA transfer within forensic exhibit packaging: potential for DNA loss and relocation.
Forensic Sci. Int. Genet. 2012a;6:158-166.


I am not sure I will ever read the whole book. It's a waste of time. What I've read so far is poorly researched - if it can be called research at all - and superficially analysed. Disappointing.

I am interested to know why Prof. Peter Gill, who seemed so far to enjoy a solid reputation, would lend his name to such a lost cause like defending convicted murderer Amanda Knox and her co-accused Raffaele Sollecito?
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 3:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Selene Nelson has written a brilliant article about the PR campaign for The Huffington Post:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/selene- ... 94432.html

Please tweet and retweet. Thanks.
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

The Machine wrote:
Selene Nelson has written a brilliant article about the PR campaign for The Huffington Post:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/selene- ... 94432.html

Please tweet and retweet. Thanks.


Thanks for posting the link. That is a very good article.
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Offline hugo


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 6:08 pm   Post subject: Re: CONTACTING THE BBC RE GILL   

Nell wrote:
Ergon wrote:
I sent the following tweets to Ruth Alexander of the BBC yesterday:

Naseer Ahmad BBC 3:00 PM - 15 Aug 2014
‏@manfromatlan @Ruth__Alexander Re http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26338637 … Did Peter Gill say the box the knife was transported in was sent to #MeredithKercher? Pls respond

Naseer Ahmad BBC 3:02 PM - 15 Aug 2014
‏@manfromatlan @Ruth__Alexander Because that isn't true. So, was Professor Gill quoted correctly here? Please respond, hope to discuss w/you

Note: this was to enquire about this quote from Gill reported here on the BBC website BBC magazine

Quote:
The amount of Meredith's DNA found on the blade of the knife at Sollecito's flat is a tiny, Gill says, and it wasn't treated with the care you would expect of forensic scientists. At one point it was transported in a cardboard box posted to Meredith, and could possibly have become contaminated.


Please note this contrasts with the BBC radio news report earlier this year which came out much more strongly in favour of the contamination scenario.

In the magazine, Ruth Alexander is a lot more fair. She writes:

Quote:
The prosecution says DNA evidence also puts Sollecito and Knox at the scene of the crime. Sollecito's DNA was found on Meredith's bra clasp. Knox's DNA was found on the handle of a knife from Sollecito's kitchen, while Meredith's DNA was found on the blade.

Sollecito tells me this cannot possibly be the case, but two independent experts who have analysed the evidence told me it indisputably is.


So, even if she later says:

Quote:
However, it occurs to me that he might be focusing on the wrong thing, because the important question is - how did the DNA get there? It is possible that it was a case of "innocent transfer", according to the founding father of DNA profiling, Professor Peter Gill.

Sollecito visited the flat shared by Knox and Meredith as Knox's boyfriend before the murder, so it's likely his DNA was present elsewhere in the house, Gill points out. The forensic officers didn't collect the bra clasp for 46 days and it had been moved from its original position at the crime scene - so it's possible Sollecito's DNA had been accidentally transferred to the clasp.


I have to accept her view as honestly held, especially as her source is Professor Gill. But I still have to correct the record, the knife was NOT "transported in a shoe box belonging to Meredith".

I hope to hear back from her.


Hi Ergon,

I am wondering about this contamination issue raised by Prof. Peter Gill.

In his book, he does not say that the box in which the knife has been transported had been in contact with Meredith at all, but he does suggest that DNA loss or relocation can occur through container walls.

That's a bit of a stretch. How is Meredith's DNA supposed to be on the container walls of the shoe box?

As another option for innocent transfer he writes that items might have been examined "close to each other".

Ergon's quotes made the book look much better than it was. I find the lack of research by Prof. Peter Gill quite shocking for a man of his reputation.

Quote:
Misleading DNA Evidence: Reasons For Miscarriages of Justice

Kindle Edition Loc 3923 of 4675

5.15 Final Remarks

[…]

It was highlighted that significant attention to detail was required when exhibits were transported to the laboratory. Other possible cross contamination routes include examination of items in close proximity to each other (e.g., Adam Scott, Jama). One of the experiments carried out by Goray included a study on the effect of transportation of knives in cardboard tubes. Apart from DNA loss by transfer to the container walls, it was shown that the DNA was redistributed so that profiles on the blade ended up on the handle and vice versa. Recall that the knife item 36 was repackaged in a shoe box that was not DNA free (and it is unknown what it previously contained). There was opportunity for DNA to transfer from the walls of the shoe box to the knife, and vice versa. This important finding by Goray et al. is also highly significant with respect to the conclusion of the Massei report claiming that the distribution of DNA on the knife supported the hypothesis of stabbing motion.

In a wider context, as DNA profiling methods have become more sensitive, there is naturally a desire to reopen unsolved cases in the hope that DNA evidence can be used to “solve crimes.” Many of these cases predate DNA profiling when it was commonplace for items to be examined together and to be kept together in large paper bags. However, Goray also shows that these conditions are ideal to allow transfer of DNA within and between packages. Therefore, this places serious constraints on interpretation where there are distinct possibilities that such transfers can have occurred.

[...]

---

Bibliography

Goray M. van Oorschot R, Mitchell J. DNA transfer within forensic exhibit packaging: potential for DNA loss and relocation.
Forensic Sci. Int. Genet. 2012a;6:158-166.


I am not sure I will ever read the whole book. It's a waste of time. What I've read so far is poorly researched - if it can be called research at all - and superficially analysed. Disappointing.

I am interested to know why Prof. Peter Gill, who seemed so far to enjoy a solid reputation, would lend his name to such a lost cause like defending convicted murderer Amanda Knox and her co-accused Raffaele Sollecito?


That would be because he's touting for business as a 'professional expert witness'. But, despite his (very recent, very provincial) professorships, he appears to be an idiot. He claims that 'the knife item 36 was repackaged in a shoe box that was not DNA free (and it is not known what it previously contained).' What does he think a shoe box would have previously contained? But it wasn't a shoe box, and it's well known -- to everyone except Peter Gill, apparently -- what it previously contained, and it could not possibly have carried Meredith's DNA. He really doesn't have a clue.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 6:14 pm   Post subject: SUMMARY GILL DNA   

Hi Nell, every one, I wrote quite a few posts reviewing the book since early July, but they were notes in no specific order about the many errors I found. I also tweeted over a hundred (it seems) tweets about it and replied to many queries as well. Be glad to answer specific questions, or, people can do a search for all posts by Ergon, DNA GILL. I capitalised the topic titles to make it easier to search.

I'll be writing a full length review for PMF and TJMK, but that won't be ready until the fall. Here's a summary of my findings.

Gill made several claims in interviews that may or may not have made it into the book. I have to review them again, but concentrating on the book, as that is his final word. Even though he said he'd post corrections on his website, he hasn't so far.

The BBC propagated the shoe box story. Thanks to The Machine and all those who tweeted Ruth Alexander, they now have rewritten to correct their error.

Swansea Jack was able to get e-mails from Gill admitting the evidence had probative value; yet when he realized that Jack was homing on the errors, backed off from claims of guilt or innocence. Which makes the title of the book, "Misleading DNA evidence, Reasons For Miscarriages Of Justice" misleading in itself. Because in three specific places, he calls the Meredith Kercher Murder Trial, a "miscarriage of justice". No where does he prove how that is so, and even his own cites, Goray et al, contradict what he is saying in his book.

Yes, I was nice and trying to be fair, but the more I write, I wonder what was he thinking?

- A look at his sources show that the chapter on Meredith Kercher was directly influenced by the Conti-Vecchiotti report.
- He argues contamination, but doesn't prove a path of transmission.
- He cites papers on secondary transfer of DNA, but misses the point his suggested routes, RS>door handle>investigator's latex glove>bra clasp is tertiary transfer.
- He argues the low cell count of Meredith's Kercher's DNA on the knife suggests contamination without considering that rigorous washing with household bleach might degrade it. (Yet miraculously those cells did provide a full match with Meredith's DNA)
- The shoe box belonging to Meredith story has been shot down.
- He clearly has not read Inspector Gubbiotti or Finci's testimonies, which removes all possible paths of 'innocent transfer'.
- Reading the actual research papers he cites, there is no way that such significant amounts of DNA could actually transfer to the bra clasp.
- He did not review Patrizia Stefanoni's Scientific Report or any of her notes, instead relying on the IIP translated C&V report and Hellmann decision.
- He refers to the Meredith Kercher wiki, but never even looked at the DNA segments which would have alerted him to problems with the C&V report.
- He may have had indirect input from Sollecito's first DNA expert, Vincenzo Pascali, and Carla Vecchiotti, but does not seem to know of Vecchiotti's colorful record of falsifying evidence.

Last, and worst of all, he did not refer to the Supreme Court decision annulling Hellmann even though the translation was widely available almost ten months before his book was published. There is no way he could not have known this, since we had been in contact with him since earlier this year. It is unconscionable that he chose this route to promote his theories. Elsevier under its new ownership and editorial policies seem to have allowed any number of self-published books to be written. If Professor Gill had written a scholarly text book it would have to be reviewed by an editorial board and sent for peer review, which might have led to professional experts critiquing and hopefully pointing out his errors. Instead, he wrote a slim, unreviewed 'popular' book to promote his own theories, which, embarrassing perhaps for him, is being critiqued and torn apart by lay persons, ahem :)
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Offline corpusvile


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hey Nell,
I had seen some of Mimoo's tweets to Callan but didn't know he'd retweeted some replies to her rants, cheers for the heads up. :D I understand why some people would find Moore highly annoying but I think he does a great job of shooting himself in the foot constantly & he's a terrible representative for FOA imo.

Thanks to Ergon for a summary of his critique on Gill's book.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Comment on the Guardian http://discussion.theguardian.com/comme ... k/39784876 by yours truly on the Barbie Nadeau piece about The Face Of An Angel movie.

Quote:
Mystified by the fervor of some of the comments @Guardian about books that shouldn't be written, and films not made. It seems that Iranian Ayatollahs are not the only ones saying that anything which offends their moral sensibilities should not be done.


That comment offended someone, so they had it deleted, lol.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Seeing as how the barbarians are swarming the Guardian http://discussion.theguardian.com/comme ... k/39794951 and Selene Wilson's Huffington Post article I thought I'd save some of the better bits before they get deleted:

Quote:
For those who criticize the writer "for making money from real crimes with real victims who will suffer pain" I imagine they do not see the irony in their statements.

Amanda Knox just made $4 million for writing a book about a murder she has been convicted for in two Italian courts. It causes real pain and suffering to the family of the victim here, Meredith Kercher. And Raffaele Sollecito made $950,000. There are several levels of incongruity here :)
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Offline corpusvile


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
Seeing as how the barbarians are swarming the Guardian http://discussion.theguardian.com/comme ... k/39794951 and Selene Wilson's Huffington Post article I thought I'd save some of the better bits before they get deleted:

Quote:
For those who criticize the writer "for making money from real crimes with real victims who will suffer pain" I imagine they do not see the irony in their statements.

Amanda Knox just made $4 million for writing a book about a murder she has been convicted for in two Italian courts. It causes real pain and suffering to the family of the victim here, Meredith Kercher. And Raffaele Sollecito made $950,000. There are several levels of incongruity here :)


i had read your comment earlier there was nothing inappropriate about it. I see The Halk's comment was also removed though, so I'm not sure what happened there.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 8:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

And in Selene Wilson's article, http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/selene- ... 94432.html

Naseer Ahmad · Top commenter · Works at Around the world, really.

Quote:
“I was in Rome last year to attend the Supreme Court hearings. Coming back on a Trastavere street car one night, with hordes of drunk, high, AMERICAN students talking about the parties they went to the previous night and the party they’re going to the next night, you really want to pull back commentary just a little bit. Long time Rome residents are tired of the behavior of American students cutting loose from parental supervision, though judging from their behavior, they probably weren’t supervised all that well back home either.

Right on the anniversary of Meredith’s murder, three years ago, an American student high on drugs pulled out a knife and stabbed his room mate several times. Thankfully, no PR to absolve him by blaming the host country.

If you can’t guarantee your little darlings won’t abuse the laws of whatever country they go to, keep them at home.”


Come on and join the debate, the water’s fine, no sharks here (though lots of minnows)
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Offline jape


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 9:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hi Ergon. You wrote re Gill -

" He argues the low cell count of Meredith's Kercher's DNA on the knife suggests contamination without considering that rigorous washing with household bleach might degrade it. (Yet miraculously those cells did provide a full match with Meredith's DNA)"

I don't think that it was ever said that the knife smelt of bleach, but that there was a smell of bleach in the kitchen. Personally I'm of the opinion that the knife was not subjected to cleaning with bleach. The reason for me thinking this, and it was a change of mind, is that if bleach had been used then the inevitable degradation would have shown up on the electropherogram chart in the form of a ski slope effect across the top of the alleles. Why this is so I don't know but there has been some research to show this.

I think the knife was washed extensively with clean water under a running tap shortly afterwards, if not at the cottage then back at Sollecito's. That would have effectively removed the blood apart from what must have been a white blood cell or some other tissue cell caught in the groove. It may even have been used for normal food preparation afterwards which may account for the corn starch. That Hellmann thought the idea preposterous is just an emotive reaction and has no logic to it. What else is a kitchen knife for and why would a murderer have any compunction against so using it, particularly when it was so clean?
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:00 pm   Post subject: ON PSYCHOLOGY   

An old (2011) article An Overview Of Modern Thinking On The Criminal Mind

Enjoy.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hi, jape, I wasn't wedded to the knife being washed with bleach argument, but, just to mention that most research I read in the past indicated that you need to soak the instrument for at least ten minutes in 10% bleach to have that degraded effect on the electropherogram. Household bleach (the Ace Brand cleanser found under the sink) contains 2% Sodium Hypochlorite and simple scrubbing with it might not be enough. I'm open to simple washing, however, convinced it was done with the steel wool pads also found under the sink (hence the longitudinal scratches on the knife - see pictures in our gallery)

However, consider this: the j- bend of the kitchen drain pipe may have been flushed with household bleach to remove all traces of blood washed down the sink-no traces found, pipe 'burst', mops and clean up ensue. That is why the kitchen smelled of bleach. Not too hard to imagine a vigorous scrub of knife, with bleach coming in contact only for a brief period of time.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:38 pm   Post subject: MORE GILL DNA   

Had a query from one of our members: "This may sound silly but was C&V's report actually officially discredited via a scholastic essay or scientific report?"

My reply:
Quote:
Hi, friend, specific to your question and to my knowledge, no. C&V and Stefanoni are competing scientific reports, and both now end up in the courts, where a judge must compare the two and adjudicate which has the greater merit.

It is not a question that can be answered by an outside expert who has not testified or been cross examined. Even experts make errors, and only a rigorous examination under oath can determine that.

Therefore, since the question of competing merit can only be judged by a court, the honest way to determine which side is correct is read the judge's report as how the evidence was collected and analyzed. That Gill failed to do that is shocking and unprofessional.

PS: You need to read the specific criticisms of C&V in the Supreme Court report. It is damning. Essentially saying they are idiots, incompetent.
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 12:15 am   Post subject: Re: SUMMARY GILL DNA   

Ergon wrote:
--- snip ---

The BBC propagated the shoe box story. Thanks to The Machine and all those who tweeted Ruth Alexander, they now have rewritten to correct their error.

--- snap ---


Hi Ergon,

Thank you for your detailed answer.

My point was that Gill writes in his book the knife had been transported in a "shoe box that was not DNA free" suggesting that Meredith's DNA could have been "relocated" on the evidence item through contaminations somehow. It is a bit of a stretch considering the box had never been in contact with Meredith Kercher. Where was her DNA supposed to come from?

Gill gives no explanation how any of her DNA could have been on the container walls and then relocated to the blade. I have not finished reading his book yet, but I don't think he addressed that Meredith's sample was a clean sample. This alone undermines his theory that her DNA on the blade could have been the result of secondary transfer.

In my opinion your former reviews were too kind. That guy is a gun for hire.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 12:43 am   Post subject: GILL, GILL, GILL DNA   

Hi, Nell, he claims elsewhere in his book that there may have been DNA transfer from Raffaele Sollecito to the outside door knob of Meredith's bedroom, (when he tried to open the door that morning) then it may have been picked up by an investigator's latex glove from the door knob as she entered the room, and after that was transferred to the bra clasp as it was transferred around. That is called tertiary transfer, and there is no documented incidence of complete loci match, or alleles and RFU in such large amounts being transferred by that mechanism. That is my criticism of him there.

He also waffles on 'household dust' and 'environmental DNA', agrees that is not a significant means of contamination, but throws it in anyway to muddy the waters, and the FOA repeat it like robots. (I pointed that out too, much earlier :)
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 1:01 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Here's the latest Steve Moore tweet:

https://twitter.com/harryrag/status/502982308065198081

Please retweet. Thanks.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 4:09 am   Post subject: THE FACE OF AN ANGEL MOVIE   

On Barbie Nadeau's article in The Guardian The Face Of An Angel I did catch the following comment, which, be fair, is more nuanced than some might give her credit for, though I appreciate that some, do not do nuance:

Quote:
So I was worried that any movie about the case would erase Meredith for good. Winterbottom, fortunately, shared that fear. He wasn’t interested in a film about Knox, her innocence or guilt. He was interested instead in the issues that had confronted and confounded me: the motivation of those covering the case, and those following it.

He wanted to use the story as a vehicle to examine society’s widespread fascination with death, and explore a Dantean model of hell, purgatory and heaven, which would divide the film into sections. Given the complexity of the crime, it seemed to make sense.

I went to Perugia with Winterbottom and his researcher and screenwriter, and introduced him to the peripheral characters: the prosecutor, local journalists, a blogger who knew every detail of the murder. Soon Winterbottom and his crew were arguing about the case just as the journalists had. The mysteries of the crime easily lend themselves to discussion; that the crew saw early on that there were no clear answers was important.


The first thought I had was she introduced him to Sfarzo? That would truly be one level of a Dantean hell, but, suggest that all of you step back and separate yourself from the case for one moment.

The case has now gone beyond all discussions of guilt or innocence. After four years of arguing and discussing it, I am now all "evidenced" out, and quite happy to wait for the verdict. This is where fresh eyes, fresh minds make the difference, it has now moved into the realms of film and literature. And one thing I am adamant on, the right of a novelist or film maker, to see this case through a different prism than the straitjacket we have all, respectfully, placed ourselves in.

The director wanted nuance. He wanted ambiguity. Anyone who doesn't get that doesn't get film making or literature. IMO, Michael Winterbottom had a vision of what he wanted to present. So he told the writer, who introduced him to Mignini AND Sfarzo. (I can see the Sfarz getting all squishy at the thought of meeting a film maker; Winterbottom can thank his lucky stars he didn't get bit when Frank found out the movie wasn't about HIM)

I went to see the director's The Trip To Italy to get a feel for what the new movie might be like. It has themes beyond the food, the scenery, and two comedians doing Michael Caine impersonations, and whether maids/the help actually were bonked in the making of the movie or not.

I think you will all be pleasantly surprised by the movie. I think some of the criticism of Barbie Nadeau we've seen has been unfair.
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Offline corpusvile


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:26 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I gotta take issue with Nadeau claiming the crime was "unsolvable" though as it most assuredly wasn't- all three were convicted. While there may be some aspects/elements of Meredith's murder which are unclear, there was certainly no mystery in the generalised sense that Nadeau was making it out to be and I tweeted her respectfully voicing my disagreement on this. I also had to wonder why she introduced Winterbottom to a blogger at all, particularly that low life and a blogger from one position only. I have to wonder if the movie deal went to Barbie's head, personally.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 6:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I understand your objection, corpusvile. Not to defend her viewpoint or anything, but there are collegial pressures and a certain amount of group think in every society and milieu. Americans might say they were convicted on circumstantial evidence, well, sorry, without confessions or multiple unimpeachable eyewitnesses, then all murders are solved on 'circumstantial' evidence. "Solved' in the sense of a legal verdict, not solved as in we know exactly what happened.

I think the director wanted more than a one sided view, and first tried to make it a movie NOT about Meredith Kercher, but the victims of violence everywhere and the devastation of the families left behind. That it might turn out to be a movie about Meredith and her family after all is part of the magic of this case.

When you read the book, you see that Barbie was very clear in saying many mistakes were made in the investigation that might cast doubt in the verdict in a more western (read American) court. I disagree, and say the evidence is strong enough to convict in any court. But while we may disagree with her on this point, I appreciate her book for how much it did inform me about the case.

But that justice should be done, is all I want to see. After that, once it moves into the realms of fiction or film making, that's fine.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 6:07 pm   Post subject: THE RACIAL ASPECTS OF THIS CASE   

Another underlying theme in this case is race, and the reporting on this case, American media in particular is affected by it.

Still, here’s an interesting article in The Root:

White Women and ‘Blame a Black Man’ Syndrome

White Women and ‘Blame a Black Man’ Syndrome

The tradition of white women falsely blaming black men for their own crimes must end.

By: Nsenga K. Burton, Ph.D. : Feb. 1 2012

“Amanda Knox blamed a black man when she was accused by Italian police of killing her roommate. Her false accusations left the falsely accused Diya “Patrick” Lumumba, a local business owner, ostensibly bankrupt.”
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Offline hugo


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 6:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

corpusvile wrote:
I gotta take issue with Nadeau claiming the crime was "unsolvable" though as it most assuredly wasn't- all three were convicted. While there may be some aspects/elements of Meredith's murder which are unclear, there was certainly no mystery in the generalised sense that Nadeau was making it out to be and I tweeted her respectfully voicing my disagreement on this. I also had to wonder why she introduced Winterbottom to a blogger at all, particularly that low life and a blogger from one position only. I have to wonder if the movie deal went to Barbie's head, personally.


Nadeau may have introduced Frank to Winterbottom as a colourful example of local lowlife. (Or at least, that would be the pretence.) But she was friendly and close enough to Frank to do that, and to pass him a piece of the action. Nadeau is an ambivalent character, and she runs with the hare and she hunts with the hounds. She may be a little ashamed of her debt to 'Sfarzo', thinking she's a cut above, but his influence is patent in her book.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 6:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hi, hugo, that was Frank, he got a lot of mileage from documents handed over to him by his source in the Questura. Then Bruce Fischer complains I "received stolen goods", lol.

Whatever, they're now back with their rightful owners, and if Frank wants any of 'his' property, he doesn't have far to go to demand them. Can you believe he actually promised his gullible supporters he would be able to get a hold of video tapes of Amanda's interrogation in the Questura? He hornswoggled many.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 7:13 pm   Post subject: SELENE WILSON   

Congratulations to Selene Wilson, who in just one day has received 986 likes, 1406 tweets, and 214 comments!

Speak No Evil: Amanda Knox and the Manipulation of Image

The above is the title she wanted, not what the editors slapped on "Was Amanda Knox Innocent, or Did She Just Have Good PR?"
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Offline corpusvile


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

hugo wrote:
corpusvile wrote:
I gotta take issue with Nadeau claiming the crime was "unsolvable" though as it most assuredly wasn't- all three were convicted. While there may be some aspects/elements of Meredith's murder which are unclear, there was certainly no mystery in the generalised sense that Nadeau was making it out to be and I tweeted her respectfully voicing my disagreement on this. I also had to wonder why she introduced Winterbottom to a blogger at all, particularly that low life and a blogger from one position only. I have to wonder if the movie deal went to Barbie's head, personally.


Nadeau may have introduced Frank to Winterbottom as a colourful example of local lowlife. (Or at least, that would be the pretence.) But she was friendly and close enough to Frank to do that, and to pass him a piece of the action. Nadeau is an ambivalent character, and she runs with the hare and she hunts with the hounds. She may be a little ashamed of her debt to 'Sfarzo', thinking she's a cut above, but his influence is patent in her book.


On the film's IMDB page it was suggested that to judge Winterbottom on his films, he himself may hav asked to meet Sfarzo, which admittedly hadn't occurred to me and which could have merit actually.
I agree with you on Nadeau being an ambivalent character, definitely.
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Offline corpusvile


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:03 pm   Post subject: Re: THE RACIAL ASPECTS OF THIS CASE   

Ergon wrote:
Another underlying theme in this case is race, and the reporting on this case, American media in particular is affected by it.

Still, here’s an interesting article in The Root:

White Women and ‘Blame a Black Man’ Syndrome

White Women and ‘Blame a Black Man’ Syndrome

The tradition of white women falsely blaming black men for their own crimes must end.

By: Nsenga K. Burton, Ph.D. : Feb. 1 2012

“Amanda Knox blamed a black man when she was accused by Italian police of killing her roommate. Her false accusations left the falsely accused Diya “Patrick” Lumumba, a local business owner, ostensibly bankrupt.”

I saw your post on twitter regarding it and rt'd it. It was indeed pretty interesting.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 2:01 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Well, Bruce Fischer is having conniption fits on Selene Wilson's post arguing that support for Knox and media support has nothing to do with race.
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Offline johnnyyen


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 5:58 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Chelsea Hoffman just published a good supporting article for Selene Nelson:

Is the Amanda Knox PR machine misleading Americans?

August 24, 2014

http://www.examiner.com/article/is-the- ... -americans
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 9:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I hope Nina Burleigh likes the tweet below:

picture of a pumpkin
This Post has been edited by a Moderator
Details: Revised link posted


https://twitter.com/harryrag/status/503670265113751552

Please retweet. Thanks.
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Offline hugo


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

corpusvile wrote:
hugo wrote:
corpusvile wrote:
I gotta take issue with Nadeau claiming the crime was "unsolvable" though as it most assuredly wasn't- all three were convicted. While there may be some aspects/elements of Meredith's murder which are unclear, there was certainly no mystery in the generalised sense that Nadeau was making it out to be and I tweeted her respectfully voicing my disagreement on this. I also had to wonder why she introduced Winterbottom to a blogger at all, particularly that low life and a blogger from one position only. I have to wonder if the movie deal went to Barbie's head, personally.


Nadeau may have introduced Frank to Winterbottom as a colourful example of local lowlife. (Or at least, that would be the pretence.) But she was friendly and close enough to Frank to do that, and to pass him a piece of the action. Nadeau is an ambivalent character, and she runs with the hare and she hunts with the hounds. She may be a little ashamed of her debt to 'Sfarzo', thinking she's a cut above, but his influence is patent in her book.


On the film's IMDB page it was suggested that to judge Winterbottom on his films, he himself may hav asked to meet Sfarzo, which admittedly hadn't occurred to me and which could have merit actually.
I agree with you on Nadeau being an ambivalent character, definitely.


Oh, right. If Winterbottom noticed from Barbie's book that Frank was a curious feature of the local fauna, he wasn't wrong. The film's emphasis seems to be on the media flacks, and Frank is someone who, uh, made himself useful to out-of-towners (like Barbie) who didn't know the scene.

And as Ergon says, he also kept his American supporters on the hook by promising those (non-existent) 'interrogation tapes', for years. As a con man, he knows his market.

When we see the film, we'll know whether Winterbottom has got a good grip on all this. The film seems pretty tasteless, when the case is still raw and still active, but... well, we'll see.

Edit: Then again, it's not just Frank. There's Giulia Alagna, the fixer-gopher-translator that the Knox-Mellas family assigned to Nina Burleigh, to make sure she got the right idea. All these pilot fish latching on to the media shark.
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Offline corpusvile


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

hugo wrote:
corpusvile wrote:
hugo wrote:
corpusvile wrote:
I gotta take issue with Nadeau claiming the crime was "unsolvable" though as it most assuredly wasn't- all three were convicted. While there may be some aspects/elements of Meredith's murder which are unclear, there was certainly no mystery in the generalised sense that Nadeau was making it out to be and I tweeted her respectfully voicing my disagreement on this. I also had to wonder why she introduced Winterbottom to a blogger at all, particularly that low life and a blogger from one position only. I have to wonder if the movie deal went to Barbie's head, personally.


Nadeau may have introduced Frank to Winterbottom as a colourful example of local lowlife. (Or at least, that would be the pretence.) But she was friendly and close enough to Frank to do that, and to pass him a piece of the action. Nadeau is an ambivalent character, and she runs with the hare and she hunts with the hounds. She may be a little ashamed of her debt to 'Sfarzo', thinking she's a cut above, but his influence is patent in her book.


On the film's IMDB page it was suggested that to judge Winterbottom on his films, he himself may hav asked to meet Sfarzo, which admittedly hadn't occurred to me and which could have merit actually.
I agree with you on Nadeau being an ambivalent character, definitely.


Oh, right. If Winterbottom noticed from Barbie's book that Frank was a curious feature of the local fauna, he wasn't wrong. The film's emphasis seems to be on the media flacks, and Frank is someone who, uh, made himself useful to out-of-towners (like Barbie) who didn't know the scene.

And as Ergon says, he also kept his American supporters on the hook by promising those (non-existent) 'interrogation tapes', for years. As a con man, he knows his market.

When we see the film, we'll know whether Winterbottom has got a good grip on all this. The film seems pretty tasteless, when the case is still raw and still active, but... well, we'll see.

Edit: Then again, it's not just Frank. There's Giulia Alagna, the fixer-gopher-translator that the Knox-Mellas family assigned to Nina Burleigh, to make sure she got the right idea. All these pilot fish latching on to the media shark.


I agree on the film seeming tasteless at present and deel it's not the right time yet to release a film yet, when Cassation hasn't finalized, extradition not yet requested etc. I don't think the Kercher family need another film or showpiece probably highlighting Knox regardless of what Barbie says. I'm in no hurry to see it actually and hear you on this. I guess as you said, we'll just have to see how it turns out.
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:34 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

The latest tweet is about ex-FBI agent Jim Clemente:

https://twitter.com/harryrag/status/504063002761777153

https://twitter.com/harryrag/status/504062922709291009

https://twitter.com/harryrag/status/504062587391475712

https://twitter.com/harryrag/status/504062464427061248

Please retweet. Thanks.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:58 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

My Tweet: I don't really like Tweeting because it seems to be the height of modern-day superficiliality, don't say too much... stop... toooo many words

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:17 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

corpusvile wrote:
hugo wrote:
corpusvile wrote:
hugo wrote:
corpusvile wrote:
I gotta take issue with Nadeau claiming the crime was "unsolvable" though as it most assuredly wasn't- all three were convicted. While there may be some aspects/elements of Meredith's murder which are unclear, there was certainly no mystery in the generalised sense that Nadeau was making it out to be and I tweeted her respectfully voicing my disagreement on this. I also had to wonder why she introduced Winterbottom to a blogger at all, particularly that low life and a blogger from one position only. I have to wonder if the movie deal went to Barbie's head, personally.


Nadeau may have introduced Frank to Winterbottom as a colourful example of local lowlife. (Or at least, that would be the pretence.) But she was friendly and close enough to Frank to do that, and to pass him a piece of the action. Nadeau is an ambivalent character, and she runs with the hare and she hunts with the hounds. She may be a little ashamed of her debt to 'Sfarzo', thinking she's a cut above, but his influence is patent in her book.



On the film's IMDB page it was suggested that to judge Winterbottom on his films, he himself may hav asked to meet Sfarzo, which admittedly hadn't occurred to me and which could have merit actually.
I agree with you on Nadeau being an ambivalent character, definitely.


Oh, right. If Winterbottom noticed from Barbie's book that Frank was a curious feature of the local fauna, he wasn't wrong. The film's emphasis seems to be on the media flacks, and Frank is someone who, uh, made himself useful to out-of-towners (like Barbie) who didn't know the scene.

And as Ergon says, he also kept his American supporters on the hook by promising those (non-existent) 'interrogation tapes', for years. As a con man, he knows his market.

When we see the film, we'll know whether Winterbottom has got a good grip on all this. The film seems pretty tasteless, when the case is still raw and still active, but... well, we'll see.

Edit: Then again, it's not just Frank. There's Giulia Alagna, the fixer-gopher-translator that the Knox-Mellas family assigned to Nina Burleigh, to make sure she got the right idea. All these pilot fish latching on to the media shark.


I agree on the film seeming tasteless at present and deel it's not the right time yet to release a film yet, when Cassation hasn't finalized, extradition not yet requested etc. I don't think the Kercher family need another film or showpiece probably highlighting Knox regardless of what Barbie says. I'm in no hurry to see it actually and hear you on this. I guess as you said, we'll just have to see how it turns out.




I don't agree with people writing books about it because it should not serve as a source of income for people that way and I don't care what anyone says, it's like presenting a half complete cake at a wedding and charging full price.

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Offline johnnyyen


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

If possible, could someone please upload this to youtube? It starts in a few hours. Thank you in advance.

From Andrea Vogt:

The unflinching BBC3 documentary about Meredith Kercher's murder & the #amandaknox trials airs @ 21:00 tonight in Italy.Chan 38/Sky 144

http://t.CO/D72F058l0y

(Google translation of above page)

Distribution: BBC3
With:

David Balding, if the same DNA Specialist
Walter Biscotti, himself, Attorney Rudy Guede
Guilia Bongiorno, herself, lawyer for Raffaele Sollecito
Anne Bremner, herself, a friend of Amanda
Sarah Gino, herself, Forensic Biologist

In ABSOLUTE FIRST TV on YELLOW "AMANDA KNOX: GUILTY OR INNOCENT?" An exclusive documentary that reconstructs the main facts about the murder of Perugia through the testimonies of the people involved.

Tuesday, August 26th at 21:00 for the first time hear the audio recording of the interrogation in prison for Amanda Knox, the main protagonist of a terrible incident that took away the breath of 3 nations.

On the night of November 1, 2007, British student Meredith Kercher in Italy for an Erasmus at the University of Perugia, is found dead with her throat cut in her bedroom in the house she shared with other students. The cause of death: hemorrhage as a result of a deep wound to the neck.

For the murder has been convicted by a final expedited the Ivorian citizen Rudy Guede and in the first instance, as accomplices in the murder, the American Amanda Knox and Italian Raffaele Sollecito. This judgment was overturned on appeal with the acquittal of the two "sweethearts", later re-sentenced by the Supreme Court.

Retrace in detail the judicial process to appeal a judgment of 30 January, all enriched by forensic reconstructions and interviews with the major figures involved in the case not to mention the story of Amanda slanderous accusation connected to Patrick Lumumba initially blamed the murder on the same student and then judged entirely unconnected with the facts.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 3:29 pm   Post subject: DRUG FACILITATED CRIME   

Just got a book to review in my e-mail:

Toxicological Aspects of Drug-Facilitated Crimes
Edited by: Pascal Kintz
Elsevier

Book description

Quote:
Toxicological Aspects of Drug-Facilitated Crimes provides readers with an overview of the field of DFC: its history, toxicological effects, analysis, interpretation of results, the roles that age, gender and race may play, and clinical presentations of these drugs. The most commonly used drugs in DFC are addressed (alcohol, cannabis, MDMA, and cocaine), as well as an emerging range of pharmaceuticals (benzodiazepines, hypnotics, sedatives, neuroleptics, histamine H1-antagonists, or anesthetics), which are becoming more widely used, but are more difficult to detect. Edited by a world-renowned expert in the field of Forensic and Analytical Toxicology, Pascal Kintz, this book investigates toxicants of emerging concern and brings together a number of experts in the field to address the most recent discoveries on DFC toxicology.

Brings together the latest research on the toxicological analysis of drug-facilitated crimes (DFC), with real-life case studies
Provides up-to-date analytical techniques for determining toxicity levels in blood, urine, and hair

Covers all types of toxicants involved in DFC, including alcohol, cannabis, MDMA, and a wide variety of pharmaceuticals
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 3:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hi, johnnyyen: I'm not sure it will be streamed live, but am sure someone will be able to capture and post. Watch both PMF's, may show up soon.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:01 pm   Post subject: VINCI SEATTLE AAFS FORENSICS CONFERENCE 2013   

Thanks to Catnip at ORG for the link: http://aafs.org/sites/default/files/AAF ... edings.pdf

A2 The November 2, 2007 Murder in Perugia:
One Thousand Clues of Evidence That
Tell Another Truth — What About Justice
for Meredith Kercher, Raffaele Sollecito,
and Amanda Knox?
Francesco Vinci, MD*, p.za G. Cesare, 11, Bari 70124, ITALY;
Maricla Marrone, MD, p.za G. Cesare, 11, Bari 70124, ITALY;
Francesca Tarantino, MD, via Milella 57, Bari 70124, ITALY; Laura
Marrone, PhD, Bari P.zza G. Cesare 11, 70124, Bari , ITALY; and
Nicoletta Ventura, PhD, P.zza G. Cesare 11, Bari 71024 , ITALY

(Scroll to page 27 for summary)
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

It was very kind of ex-FBI agent John Douglas to pose in all black for a high definition photograph. I hope he likes the tweet:

https://twitter.com/harryrag/status/504390582727614464

Please retweet. Thanks.
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I should have put this link at the top rather than at the bottom when I posted it because it's a tweet to Jim Clemente:

https://twitter.com/harryrag/status/504062464427061248

If you haven't done so already, please retweet it. Thanks.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I heard Noxa is set on producing her own shows and making a film and shall be starring in a remake of Bambi, as Bambi.

Sollec, who acts like it's a normal day and everything is simply outrageous, now in prison a year, had started to dress himself in his own excrement hoping they'd think he's nuts, after finding out himself, that he had no more ways out, look he said, I'm doing cartwheels in the the prison chapel and all that, I stands on my head too, I'm reading wide cumbersome important looking books to be seen reading 'em and I'm doing yoga, in my free time here in jail, on family visits, my girlfriend is allowed to come in on the weekends to stay and cohabitate my humble dwelling, wherein we work upon my design to create a child, it shall, contrary to popular belief, not be born with two horns on its head but it will smuggle my dope in for me and do other stuff to help its poor dad the murderer.
Until all of this preposterous nonsense, I had lived as an angel, gathering turnips and logging in to worship the God of violent Manga, I know before I said I am perfectly normal, however, I made a mistake and I am as mad as a hatter and should be transferred to a comfortable medical facility, look I have seen the errors of my ways and wish to convert but am presently insane. I promise not to murder anyone else if I ever did, can I go now.

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Last edited by zorba on Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 6:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

It's great to see Selene's article being mentioned on another website:

Amanda Knox Murder Trial Update: PR Team Helping Knox to Alter Public Sentiment in the US

http://www.christianpost.com/news/amand ... us-125439/
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:00 pm   Post subject: KNOX APRIL FOOL PRANK   

From our archives:

Knox April Fool's Prank

http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/12/end_of_an_affair (#15)

Quote:
Knox once got a bunch of her friends to dress up in ski masks and break into her apartment and assault her roomates as an "april fools" joke. She's guilty and fucking nuts.

Posted by Joh | December 2, 2007 2:50 PM


Quote:
Michael Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:50 pm Post subject: AMANDA KNOX'S APRIL FOOLS SKI MASK PRANK wrote:

'Joh' was contacted by PMF Administrator Skeptical Bystander over a year ago and he confirmed the incident. The story came from a friend of his who lived in the student house in Seattle with Amanda Knox, the same student house incidentally where the infamous 'rock throwing party' for which Knox was fined took place. However, neither Joh or his friend wanted to come forward to the authorities with their story or go on official record, so it is a case of make of it what you will. It therefore does not form any of the official evidence against the suspects in the ILE file and will not be heard in trial or appeals. For these reasons, this information has been filed down the Rabbit Hole, instead of one of the main data threads.


Quote:
Skeptical Bystander Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:30 pm wrote:
Here's what I can tell you for sure. The comment was left on the slog by a guy with a facebook account. I signed up for facebook and got him to contact me. He said that he had been told this story by a guy he was working with at the time who was one of Knox's housemates (in the house where the wild party took place). He confirmed that the story told to him was of a fake break-in and kidnapping, with Knox (and co-perps) wearing face/ski masks. He said he had no reason to doubt the guy but he had lost touch with him because they no longer worked together. I have the name of this person but do not want to give it out here, for fear his life could be made miserable by people who don't want him to talk about that stuff. I haven't tried to contact him, for reasons I don't want to go into here. [...]


http://www.amandaknox.com/2013/12/18/wi ... /#comments

Quote:
Celeste says: January 5, 2014 at 13:03
Amanda, do you categorically deny that before you went to Perugia you got a bunch of your friends to dress up in ski masks and break into your own apartment as an April fool’s joke? Joh, the guy who posted this in The Stranger on December 2, 2007, stands by his story and says he heard it from a co-worker who was one of those housemates.


Quote:
Amanda says: January 7, 2014 at 13:02
Rob,
I played part in a April’s Fools prank that involved making a mess – moving and hiding stuff in the house I shared with friends – to make it seem like we had been robbed when we weren’t there. The ruse was immediately revealed after the initial shock. We – all of the mutual friends of my housemates who participated in the prank with me – apologized for the distress caused.
There was no harm to property or persons. Like so many things, this event has been exaggerated for the sake of sensationalism.


Quote:
penelope says: January 8, 2014 at 08:08
Amanda is quite articulate enough without you butting in and jumping to her defence every time a sensitive question arises. I take exception to being accused of spreading things around the internet. I haven’t the time or inclination. Neither did I notice in Amanda’s recollection of events any mention of what she was wearing at the time of the harmless prank. If the house was empty of people while the mess was being made along with the staged burglary, a ski mask was undoubtedly unnecessary. Amanda didn’t deny the wearing of a mask but not to worry, she’s got you to do it for her. If I didn’t care what she had to say, I would hardly waste my time trying to find out what she had to say. You are looking for offence at every turn and it may surprise you to learn that not every person with an enquiring mind is the demonic troll you imagine them to be.


Quote:
Amanda says: January 8, 2014 at 08:33
Costumes of any kind were not a part of the prank.
Best,
a
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:17 pm   Post subject: MY THEORY OF THE CRIME   

Looking at the citations for the book Toxicological Aspects of Drug-Facilitated Crimes by Pascal Kintz reminds me how closely it fit with my theory of the crime written a while back:

"..it is Knox above all, whose contemporaries alleged (on social media) she was ‘self medicating’ with drugs and alcohol. For an undiagnosed personality disorder. My guess is, Narcissistic Personality Disorder with more than a touch of Autism Spectrum.

Recent research also points to drug induced psychosis. My theory of the crime has always been, Amanda Knox orchestrated it all in the throes of a drug induced jealous rage.”
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:13 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Quote:
Amanda says: January 7, 2014 at 13:02
Rob,
I played part in a April’s Fools prank that involved making a mess – moving and hiding stuff in the house I shared with friends – to make it seem like we had been robbed when we weren’t there. The ruse was immediately revealed after the initial shock. We – all of the mutual friends of my housemates who participated in the prank with me – apologized for the distress caused.
There was no harm to property or persons. Like so many things, this event has been exaggerated for the sake of sensationalism.

_______________

What she meant:

This one having not been as funny as we imagined, led me to engage in such behaviour, again, like, do ya know what we did once, hi hi hi, let's do this.
Sollec: Yes I see hi hi hi (the "bloody" idiot)

Quote KNOXA: There was no harm to property or persons!

Unquote:

The land of Ponder, better known as Ponderland.
There was no harm to property or persons, they all said:

We know Ms if you prick us with a knife it will only have been an accident, thereupon we shall declare:

It didn't hurt, it's okay, no problem.

Despite this information, when they stabbed Meredith to death, I mean, would they have us believe, as a sort of logical extension, that Meredith whilst being butchered, also said, it's okay, no problem.

Yes, I think these people expect thanks and gratitude.

Oh, forgot, Sollecito retracted his otherwise wholly "great tale" told to the police back when he was ''bricking it'' about what they the police would discover on that knife.

I pricked her in the hand, she said it's not a problem and thank you very much,

Sollec: I recall, back when mother would cook, she caused a few casualties too and so we'd all leave the house for a few hours while mother turned the kitchen into a frenzified slaughterhouse making our dinner. Get out, get out now children, mam is cooking, she might stab you, mam had a twitch you see and would often shoot off the cutting board missing it by about 3 feet and slicing anyone in the vicinity right into shreds.
Most of our guests left thanking us in bandages from head to toe after Sunday lunch.

Ring ring: Hello, pronto, who's this?
Frenzied cooker: It's just mam, and I'm calling to warn you about dinner, hereby stating that I hold no liability for anything I do, you attend lunch at your own risk, it's better to wear a bulletproof vest and to write your will beforehand.

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Last edited by zorba on Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 2:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

:)
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

The “Special” Agent Man – A Post-by-Post Review Of Steve Moore’s Surely Unique Blog #1: http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php ... _review_1/

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THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

A challenge has been put to us by Allison Hope Weiner to provide someone to go on her show (via skype). They wanted Harry Rag (The Machine), but I put it to them that that was just a lame attempt to learn his identity and that there are those of us who post under their real names and have been interviewed before and would perhaps be happy to do so again. So, are there any among you who may be willing to take her up on her offer? After her terrible interview with Jim Clemente, it's only right that we should be able to add some balance with actual facts. Anybody interested?

Could someone who also posts over on Org also post a copy of the challenge over there? Some of them have already done interviews and may be game.

Cheers

Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hey, Happy Birthday to Smacker!!! :)

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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Another website has mentioned Selene's article:

Amanda Knox under the influence of drugs that led to Meredith Kercher murder? New angle a shift from PR team's 'naive girl' defense

http://www.vcpost.com/articles/25948/20 ... -death.htm

https://twitter.com/harryrag/status/505129010578202626

Please tweet and retweet the article. Thanks.


Last edited by The Machine on Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

The Machine wrote:
Another website has mentioned Selene's article:

Amanda Knox under the influence of drugs that led to Meredith Kercher murder? New angle a shift from PR team's 'naive girl' defense

http://www.vcpost.com/articles/25948/20 ... -death.htm

Please tweet and retweet the article. Thanks.


Done :)

Could you kindly post Allison Weiner's challenge on Org? (or someone)

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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael wrote:
The Machine wrote:
Another website has mentioned Selene's article:

Amanda Knox under the influence of drugs that led to Meredith Kercher murder? New angle a shift from PR team's 'naive girl' defense

http://www.vcpost.com/articles/25948/20 ... -death.htm

Please tweet and retweet the article. Thanks.


Done :)

Could you kindly post Allison Weiner's challenge on Org? (or someone)


Piktor has just posted her challenges. She's deleted her challenge to me.
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael wrote:
A challenge has been put to us by Allison Hope Weiner to provide someone to go on her show (via skype). They wanted Harry Rag (The Machine), but I put it to them that that was just a lame attempt to learn his identity and that there are those of us who post under their real names and have been interviewed before and would perhaps be happy to do so again. So, are there any among you who may be willing to take her up on her offer? After her terrible interview with Jim Clemente, it's only right that we should be able to add some balance with actual facts. Anybody interested?

Could someone who also posts over on Org also post a copy of the challenge over there? Some of them have already done interviews and may be game.

Cheers

Michael


No one who has read her Twitter timeline will bother with her. It's common sense really. She fits in well with Knox's supporters. Rude, insulting and unknowledgeable.

She is lowbrow.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon -

Did you challenge Jim Clemente to a debate? What happened?

Here's what Clemente's saying:

https://twitter.com/JimClemente/status/ ... 5089743872

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

The Machine wrote:
Michael wrote:
The Machine wrote:
Another website has mentioned Selene's article:

Amanda Knox under the influence of drugs that led to Meredith Kercher murder? New angle a shift from PR team's 'naive girl' defense

http://www.vcpost.com/articles/25948/20 ... -death.htm

Please tweet and retweet the article. Thanks.


Done :)

Could you kindly post Allison Weiner's challenge on Org? (or someone)


Piktor has just posted her challenges. She's deleted her challenge to me.



Really? So she's chickened out. She never expected we may call her bluff, that's why.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Nell wrote:
No one who has read her Twitter timeline will bother with her. It's common sense really. She fits in well with Knox's supporters. Rude, insulting and unknowledgeable.

She is lowbrow.



Yeah, she was puffing herself up about how she's never mistreated any of her guests, then promptly starts calling us trolls while challenging us to come on her show. I call that insulting your guests (or potential guests). Anyway, it's starting to look like she was insincere about the challenge and is rapidly back peddling by deleting her tweets making the challenge. What a coward. I don't think we should let her off the hook about that.

_________________
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:09 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael wrote:
Nell wrote:
No one who has read her Twitter timeline will bother with her. It's common sense really. She fits in well with Knox's supporters. Rude, insulting and unknowledgeable.

She is lowbrow.



Yeah, she was puffing herself up about how she's never mistreated any of her guests, then promptly starts calling us trolls while challenging us to come on her show. I call that insulting your guests (or potential guests). Anyway, it's starting to look like she was insincere about the challenge and is rapidly back peddling by deleting her tweets making the challenge. What a coward. I don't think we should let her off the hook about that.


She posted dozens and dozens of insults, calling people trolls, stupid, frauds etc. I also noticed that Allison Hope Weiner, just like Jim Clemente, has a problem with correct spelling, which is curious as she is always quick to point to her supposed superior education. Once she recommended I should improve my English and right after that she told someone else to "learn some manors".

She reminds me of Bruce Fischer, making a lot of noise to garner some attention for her show.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:50 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I wonder if her mother brought her up to speak to people like that. And when people respond, she cries foul and claims victimhood. That sounds familiar.

It is a fact, Amanda Knox attracts a certain kind of person to her cause.

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:02 am   Post subject: JIM CLEMENTE DEBATE CHALLENGE   

Hi, Michael, it's the other way around. Jim Clemente challenged me to a debate, then when that got sorted out, brmull also got challenged, so I deferred to him, and informed all parties back in July.

https://twitter.com/brmull/status/485560830776209408

Quote:
Allison Hope Weiner: ‏@ahopeweiner · Jul 5
I think that I am going to do a whole series of shows on how #Amandaknox is innocent. And, I will have on @JimClemente and Steve Moore.


Quote:
brmull‏@brmull:4:08 PM - 5 Jul 2014 @ahopeweiner @JimClemente
I'm still waiting to hear from you guys.


Quote:
Jim Clemente ‏@JimClemente: · Jul 5
@brmull @ahopeweiner About what?


Quote:
Naseer Ahmad ‏@manfromatlan · Jul 10
@brmull @ahopeweiner @JimClemente issued a challenge (to me) but no directions. Then when brmull accepted the challenge, I deferred to him. Reply?


Quote:
Jim Clemente ‏@JimClemente · Jul 10
@manfromatlan @ahopeweiner Brmull has "issue" that I am professional enough not to make public.


Quote:
Naseer Ahmad ‏@manfromatlan · Jul 10
@JimClemente @ahopeweiner Is this a veiled attack on brmull? Will you be debating the case, or the person?


https://twitter.com/brmull/status/493577670672670721

Quote:
Allison Hope Weiner: ‏@ahopeweiner · Jul 25
New show coming on #haters of @amamaknox and their desire to disparage her without ever giving their names. #Cowards


Quote:
brmull‏ @brmull: 7:04 PM - 27 Jul 2014: @ahopeweiner Who you calling #Cowards? Put me on the show and I'll talk about why I can't use my real name.


So, as things stand right now, brmull is still waiting to hear from Jim Clemente.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 8:32 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael wrote:
I wonder if her mother brought her up to speak to people like that. And when people respond, she cries foul and claims victimhood. That sounds familiar.

It is a fact, Amanda Knox attracts a certain kind of person to her cause.


Yes, they knew she was ''touched'', imagine how dad treated mom, way back when, you only need to look at what a bully he was in this case, use his minors (kids) for publicity & PR, using them as a pretty pose, perhaps damaging and traumatising them for life, yet is more or less ready to start knocking out the reporters when it appeared not all of them were in service to him alone, to see how he treated her mom, he seemed to think reporters should be at his service when it suits him.
What a megalomaniac!

She will have to start an affair with her step-dad, that way he'll never grass her up and mom, even if left destitute, will never grass on her. So, expect to hear wedding and divorce bells.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:49 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

And the Knox antics continue:

Image

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:06 am   Post subject: Re: JIM CLEMENTE DEBATE CHALLENGE   

Ergon wrote:
Hi, Michael, it's the other way around. Jim Clemente challenged me to a debate, then when that got sorted out, brmull also got challenged, so I deferred to him, and informed all parties back in July.

https://twitter.com/brmull/status/485560830776209408

Quote:
Allison Hope Weiner: ‏@ahopeweiner · Jul 5
I think that I am going to do a whole series of shows on how #Amandaknox is innocent. And, I will have on @JimClemente and Steve Moore.


Quote:
brmull‏@brmull:4:08 PM - 5 Jul 2014 @ahopeweiner @JimClemente
I'm still waiting to hear from you guys.


Quote:
Jim Clemente ‏@JimClemente: · Jul 5
@brmull @ahopeweiner About what?


Quote:
Naseer Ahmad ‏@manfromatlan · Jul 10
@brmull @ahopeweiner @JimClemente issued a challenge (to me) but no directions. Then when brmull accepted the challenge, I deferred to him. Reply?


Quote:
Jim Clemente ‏@JimClemente · Jul 10
@manfromatlan @ahopeweiner Brmull has "issue" that I am professional enough not to make public.


Quote:
Naseer Ahmad ‏@manfromatlan · Jul 10
@JimClemente @ahopeweiner Is this a veiled attack on brmull? Will you be debating the case, or the person?


https://twitter.com/brmull/status/493577670672670721

Quote:
Allison Hope Weiner: ‏@ahopeweiner · Jul 25
New show coming on #haters of @amamaknox and their desire to disparage her without ever giving their names. #Cowards


Quote:
brmull‏ @brmull: 7:04 PM - 27 Jul 2014: @ahopeweiner Who you calling #Cowards? Put me on the show and I'll talk about why I can't use my real name.


So, as things stand right now, brmull is still waiting to hear from Jim Clemente.



Thanks, Ergon. So, you were willing to go on, but deferred to Brmull whom they seemed more interested in, but were willing to stand in should they not go with him. Yet, neither of you have heard a thing back from them. Have I got it right?

Just to be clear...the main thrust of Weiner's last night, was to publicly claim that none of us were willing to go on her show and face them, that we were all too afraid. This, like a great many things, transpires to be a dirty great falsehood.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Huh, has she enrolled for priestship?

Nice family, giving it the finga n all!

It's like a big joke or something, to them, this is incredible, how she can interact with family while either telling them she didn't do it or them simply not caring less, but in fact it appears that she has not admitted it to them and thus acts her show out on a daily basis, damn , that must be really hard, or she is nuts and it doesn't affect her anymore than she already was.

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hi, Michael, I was challenged to a debate, not the other way around, with taunts about how I was too chicken to show up. Then when I agreed, there was a scheduling conflict, but it was tentatively scheduled for June. Then when brmull appeared I deferred to him, wanting to focus on Gill's DNA book.

Right now the hold up seems to be they only want harry rag, while sniping they have 'named experts', and we have none willing to appear on their You Tube show :)
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael wrote:
I wonder if her mother brought her up to speak to people like that. And when people respond, she cries foul and claims victimhood. That sounds familiar.

It is a fact, Amanda Knox attracts a certain kind of person to her cause.


So true.

At one point Allison Hope Weiner told me to google her ("Honey, google me." were her exact words), so I did. What came up was an interview about her experience with alcohol intoxication and throwing up.

Quote:
Source

How did/does your family treat drinking?

My family is filled with people who can’t drink. We drink and then we throw-up. I remember my mother having some wine at a fancy French restaurant and then, sitting on the curb afterwards, throwing up while my father brought the car around. My brother, Matthew, and I went to Europe when we were in our late teens and drank heavily and threw up in every country. It actually became a joke about who would vomit first. Weiners are not great drinkers–although my brother has improved vastly over the years due to his time writing for the Sopranos and also from working on Mad Men.

How do you approach alcohol in your every day life?

I tend to have just a glass a few glasses of wine a week–either during dinner or while on the set of Media Mayhem.



The other article that came up mentions Mel Gibson's investment in the company Lip.tv where she hosts her shows.

Once her connection to Mel Gibson was revealed after she flipped her opinion about him, the website that had hosted her opinion piece felt compelled to publish an explanation of sorts.

Quote:
Source

I commissioned veteran investigative journalist Allison Hope Weiner to write an opinion piece on how she evolved from critical reporting of Mel Gibson’s verbal indiscretions and into a friend who made a case for him being given another chance in Hollywood on the 10th anniversary of The Passion of The Christ. She dropped her objectivity for the first time in her career, and delivered a provocative opinion piece that garnered 870 comments, all over the map. After, some reports alleged she should have disclosed that Gibson’s Icon was a seed investor in Thelip.tv, an Internet company where she hosts two shows, and where Gibson’s son, Will, is a former employee. Deadline has evaluated the situation. I stand behind her piece completely, but we decided our readers deserve transparency. Had I known about this tie, I would have asked Allison to weave it into her piece. But I didn’t know, and so I have invited Allison to explain.

[...]

So here is her explanation:

“I received a call over two years ago from Michael Lustig, who was starting up an internet channel that he’d named Thelip.tv and was looking for experienced journalists to host one of the shows on the channel. He’d gotten my name from his friend, Mel Gibson. Lustig, a former manager whose clients included Bryan Ferry and The Smashing Pumpkins between 1988 and 2003, proposed a show covering the media and asked if I might be interested in partnering with him. He explained that there would be no money, but I would get a financial stake in my show and share in its success. When he launched the venture, Icon Productions agreed to be a passive investor, an extension of his relationship with Icon. While I partnered with Lustig on my own show, I never had any dealings with Icon; I was not involved in the hiring of employees by Thelip.tv nor did I pay any of the employees who work for Lustig. That includes Will Gibson, who worked for Thelip.tv until he left last December.

I started my show in 2011 and I have never received any money from Mel Gibson or Icon for my work on the shows Media Mayhem or Crime Time. I am not an employee of Mr. Gibson nor of Icon. Furthermore, neither Icon Productions nor any third party have any control over what I do or say on either of my shows, which is part of the conceit of the shows and represents what I believe to be their intrinsic value. The suggestion that Mr. Gibson, or any third party, exercises influence over me or my shows is false. My shows aren’t editorially compromised by advertising or any other factors, and that is the hard truth.


So, according to Hope Weiner it was Mel Gibson who got her a spot at LipTV in the first place and his son worked there too.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Another privileged white girl who was never set boundaries and got it all laid on.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 6:29 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Is there a tradition of Americans with no clue, going to Italy and losing the plot, since Italy is a very exciting place to be?

I say this as I recall when I was in Italy in the 80s an American student had apparently murdered someone In Rome).

I doubt I'll ever find out which case that one was, as there wasn't any internet back then so nothing has perhaps been placed online, for instance, since the coming of the internet.

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Last edited by zorba on Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I hope Doug Preston likes the tweet about him:

https://twitter.com/harryrag/status/505418651072479232

https://twitter.com/harryrag/status/505418772359168000

https://twitter.com/harryrag/status/505418509313392641

Please retweet. Thanks.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   




TM, wouldn't it be better not to poke that snake, considering he's been quiet for quite a while? Why drag him back into it? If he's moved on, that's great by me.

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

He's been poking a stick at us for a long time, Michael, so this to remind the media how unreliable he is. Otherwise soon as the Supreme Court announces the hearing date, he'll be writing another article for the Atlantic. He was the main source for the demonization of Mignini in the media, and still wants his Monster Of Florence movie to be made.

Somehow I don't think that will happen.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:47 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

But if we attack him then we give him no choice but to reappear. We make it a self-fulfilling prophecy. If he has decided to withdraw, for whatever reason, good riddance and best to leave well alone, I say.

He may well have said much in the past, but so have we to debunk his crap. I don't see any immediate need to add more and tempt fate. No need to gild the lily.

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Offline corpusvile


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

An article a while back by Andrea Vogt said that Chris McQuarrie was in Florence scouting for locations for the MOF film but it's been listed as "in development" on IMDB since 2008 now, so I doubt if it'll go ahead.
http://www.theweek.co.uk/europe/58419/italys-dark-side-clooney-florence-and-crucified-girl
The killer mentioned in this article has since been caught btw.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

He hasn't exactly stopped, having written Trial By Fury to attack us. Plus claiming to have hired hackers and private detectives to find our identities. And he is an (airport level) best selling author with a movie to sell. He'll be back anyway on CNN going back about the case just as the extradition fight warms up.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
He hasn't exactly stopped, having written Trial By Fury to attack us. Plus claiming to have hired hackers and private detectives to find our identities. And he is an (airport level) best selling author with a movie to sell. He'll be back anyway on CNN going back about the case just as the extradition fight warms up.


That was all quite a while ago. Personally, I think our hands are full enough with the FOAKers that are currently active, without dredging up legacy ones.

Right now, he has his sights set on the battle with Amazon and that looks set to go on for a very long time.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:10 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Since some questions have been raised of showing the pictures of Knox with her sisters: The sister giving the finger (reminiscent of the Vashon Island salute) and Knox in 'graduation gown' (since she kept news of her graduation secret), was news worthy.

And since it seemed to mirror what we've been saying about her PR for some time, it seemed like a very special FU directed at all of us who believe she's guilty, fair enough. But news worthy.

However I think the family should otherwise be left alone unless where they insert themselves into public debate.
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Offline jaybee51


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:35 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Why is Knox wearing a purple gown when University of Washington graduates wear black gowns?

huh-) Where was she graduating from - and with what qualification?
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:24 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

jaybee51 wrote:
Why is Knox wearing a purple gown when University of Washington graduates wear black gowns?

huh-) Where was she graduating from - and with what qualification?


She graduated from UW with a BA in creative writing. Degree received August 22, 2014. Since she had to complete summer courses to obtain her degree, she missed the 2014 commencement at Husky field on June 14, 2014.

Perhaps she stole the robes from the local church choir? I don't see a tassled hat anywhere, and since it was just to post a posed picture, BTW, my first thought was angry sis is angry at the person taking the picture, but more likely it's part of the FU theme. Bruce shouldn't be upset at us, those who live by publicity shouldn't complain when it turns around and bites ass.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:46 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I'm thinking that we should publish the debacle with Allison Hope Weiner. Working title:

Allison Hope Weiner, Amanda Knox and the Unethical Games the Media Play

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:48 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
jaybee51 wrote:
Why is Knox wearing a purple gown when University of Washington graduates wear black gowns?

huh-) Where was she graduating from - and with what qualification?


She graduated from UW with a BA in creative writing. Degree received August 22, 2014. Since she had to complete summer courses to obtain her degree, she missed the 2014 commencement at Husky field on June 14, 2014.

Perhaps she stole the robes from the local church choir? I don't see a tassled hat anywhere, and since it was just to post a posed picture, BTW, my first thought was angry sis is angry at the person taking the picture, but more likely it's part of the FU theme. Bruce shouldn't be upset at us, those who live by publicity shouldn't complain when it turns around and bites ass.



She's wearing the robe she used to graduate from the Seattle Catholic High School, I think.

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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:01 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael wrote:



TM, wouldn't it be better not to poke that snake, considering he's been quiet for quite a while? Why drag him back into it? If he's moved on, that's great by me.


Doug Preston hasn't moved on. He and a few others from the FOA co-wrote The Forgotten Killer which was published this year:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Forgotten-K ... B00I3QZ7G0

I found out from multiple sources in the media that the FOA lobby very hard behind the scenes. The likes of Steve Moore, Michael Heavey and Nina Burleigh are literally begging to appear on television. Fortunately, Nina Burleigh has been reduced to promoting her book on an obscure blog and Steve Moore has been appearing in homemade videos which are then uploaded onto YouTube.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:24 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

And Michael Heavey is limited to Rotary Clubs and even they've stopped having him.

Douglas Preston is currently caught up in the war going on between Amazon and the publishing houses. Preston's designated himself spokesman for the authors who are caught in the middle. A somewhat more noble exploit of his then those hitherto. Personally, I think it's best to leave him to get on with that then drag him back into this case. If his last shout on the matter was a self-published e-book that nobody reads, that's fine.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:26 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

How Does It Feel

How does it feel when you don't got no soul
When you're empty inside and your mind's full of holes

How does it feel when you lie to yourself
Cos you can't take responsibility for your acts and always blame someone else

How does it feel to have to lie every single day, every minute, every second
In endless different ways

How does it feel when you've got no heart
You cut off your legs though you were running from the start

How does it feel to feel like a worm
When you wake up in the night from your sleep talking turns

How does it feel now you know you can never assume there's a God
Because if you thought there was
Of your mind it would you rob

How will it feel when your maker you meet
Will you try to smooth it all over by despatching a tweet?

How does it feel when you've got no soul
Your corkscrewed heart left with no role

How does it feel when you are wholly full of shit
Because you know you are a murderer
And cannot deal with it

How does it feel, when you feel like such a fool
Daddy upped n left ya and acted very cruel

How does it feel do you think
To have "your" loved one killed
All because some trollop was looking for a thrill

How would ''your'' mother feel, if your little sister had been robbed of life
Would you tell her to get over it, or accept the evidence on the knife

How does it feel when you know you are now a waste of space
You are one of those humans who doesn't belong in the human race

How does it feel when you wake up remembering what you did
Wondering for a moment if you can keep on keeping it all hid

How does it feel?

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 4:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

AK's cloak at Seattle Prep was a bright blue.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 4:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

She missed the 2014 graduation ceremony, got a graduation gown from here http://www.graduationsource.com/college ... -gown.html in a color she liked. White sash is traditionally for Arts students.
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

The new tweet is about Michael Heavey:

https://twitter.com/harryrag/status/505798848011571200

https://twitter.com/harryrag/status/505798935907405824

Please retweet. Thanks.

He actually claimed it wasn't true that Meredith had been sexually assaulted.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ah, right you are then.

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Offline jaybee51


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

:lol: But she is wearing the cheap and shiny version:

http://www.graduationsource.com/adult-s ... -gown.html
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

:)
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ongoing Twitter campaign against ORG and Skeptical Bystander by Allison Hope Weiner and Bruce Fischer https://twitter.com/ahopeweiner/status/ ... 4583481346

They must be getting desperate now the Nencini Motivation Report translation coming out.
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I hope Allison Hope Weiner likes the tweet about her:

https://twitter.com/harryrag/status/506168417079271425

Please retweet. Thanks.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
Ongoing Twitter campaign against ORG and Skeptical Bystander by Allison Hope Weiner and Bruce Fischer https://twitter.com/ahopeweiner/status/ ... 4583481346

They must be getting desperate now the Nencini Motivation Report translation coming out.


"Allison Hope Weiner" is a synonym for "pathetic".
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Yeah, this way you can see those insane eyes better, this picture is abundantly disturbed, whatever way you look at it, and I just nabbed it off of the other site there.

Removing said photo now as it is making me feel ill.

Gone, looked like a poltergeist.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:35 pm   Post subject: PROFESSOR PETER GILL'S SOURCE   

With thanks to Skeptical Bystander of ORG for this snippet from the translated Nencini report: Source

Quote:
And this, from page 221 (of the Italian version):

The Court holds that the behavior of Prof. Carla Vecchiotti is deserving of condemnation, since before making an incorrect statement in a report, and then deriving from it further incorrect considerations on the reliability or unreliability of laboratory analyses performed by others, it should have been her duty to ask Dr. Patrizia Stefanoni for the positive and negative controls whose existence she had asserted at a trial hearing. Only in the case where they were not provided should Prof. Vecchiotti have then drawn the conclusions that were due.


It appears that Gill knew the Conti-Vecchiotti Report had been discredited, but did not enquire into the reasons WHY. Since the source of his claim, that the Murder of Meredith Kercher trial was a miscarriage of justice is the Conti-Vecchiotti report, does that not discredit his book?

Professor Gill did indeed have a duty to his field, colleagues and readers to check all available sources. He did not.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:47 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Worth reproducing in full: Sallyoo on ORG

Quote:
Post by Sallyoo » 01 Sep 2014, 14:07

Quote:
JohnQ wrote: I haven't finished reading any of the translations. I've started some but I haven't finished. I guess I get distracted easily. :drool:

I definitely want to read all of them. There's nothing like original source material.

Maybe I'll start with Nencini since it's topical. :thinking:

If any of you thinks I should read one or more of the others first, please let me know. :D


Interesting question. Personally I'd start with Nencini, because he basically covers Massei (lots of Nencini is directly copied from Massei), and he also addresses the 2013 Court of Cassazione objections to Hellmann (and to the views of Conti and Vecchiotti). This makes Nencini the most 'complete' overview, in my opinion.

The downside is that it is very long, and in parts seems to be rather repetitive (which is no doubt Nencini just being pedantically thorough and creating a bombproof report) but often it does get to the point where the reader is just desperate for him to cut to the car chase!

I'n not inclined to refer to any of the reports (Massei, Nencini, Micheli) as source material. They are explanations of why the learned judges reached their conclusions having themselves analysed the source material. That material (for me) is court testimony, evidence and documentation from experts accepted into the court records, and witness statements. The reports (motivazioni) are the most important documents by far, and they must be the source for any ongoing legal arguments (the 'appeals' lodged by RS and AK to the Court of Cassazione) but fundamentally they are judgements based on 'original sources'.

Sorry - that got a bit long and rambling :this:
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Weiner's back on Twitter, and is (surprise, surprise) playing the victim card. Accusing Harry Rag, the one defending the raped & murdered girl, of misogyny and "hating women" no less. Apparently, calling Weiner a "drama queen" qualifies him as such. She truly is an odious cretin. She needs to lay off the sauce.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Someone always wants their last moment in the media limelight, Michael.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Amanda Knox's prison diary available as Italian translation


Raffaele Sollecito was so kind to upload the Italian translation of Amanda Knox's prison diary to his blog. The guy was apparently unaware that Google would index every file he uploads to his server. He thought the file was "safe" as long as he did not provide a direct download link. A mistake on his behalf.

Amanda Knox's prison diary was translated to Italian by Marco Bellanca, Anna Donnino and Anna Pennoni, for the Italian police.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Thanks, Nell. I wonder what will happen now...will Knox or her publishers sue Sollecito for copyright infringement? One of the main reasons the Melloxes guarded release of the diary so hard was because her whole book deal was based on it and as such, they and the publishers consider it to be their property.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael wrote:
Thanks, Nell. I wonder what will happen now...will Knox or her publishers sue Sollecito for copyright infringement? One of the main reasons the Melloxes guarded release of the diary so hard was because her whole book deal was based on it and as such, they and the publishers consider it to be their property.



I wonder why Raffaele Sollecito bothered to upload Amanda Knox's diary to his blog in the first place? A public server is not an obvious place to store away your evidence files. The only reason I can think of is that his intention was to share it with others, but not with the wider public. He probably assumed the document to be safe as he did not provide a link to the document on his website. He did not count with Google crawling his blog and indexing all files found on his server, which made the document visible in searches.

This is absolutely astonishing considering that Sollecito is supposed to be a computer scientist and wrote a thesis about social media and key words.

I am not sure about the copyright infringement. The document is part of the body of evidence and as such part of the case file. I don't know though if that has an impact or not. An interesting question for sure.
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Offline corpusvile


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 3:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Maybe he wanted it to be found? He strikes me as quite devious. Maybe he didn't provide a link as a way of getting people to think he wasn't aware it wouldn't be found, but knowing all the while it would be with the ultimate goal of more attention being put on Knox and away from him? I'm just speculating here, but again he and his family strike me as pretty devious.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 4:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

The Italian transcript was done by police from the original Knox prison diary written in English, Michael. Didn't Fiorenza Sarzanini get sued for publishing the naughty bits? As far as I know, the transcript is the property of the state, but the original is Knox's intellectual property, subject to whatever exclusions apply to felons :)
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 5:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Speaking of, she did make it to this ASK com list of famous UW alumni :)

UW alumni
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
Speaking of, she did make it to this ASK com list of famous UW alumni :)

UW alumni

Wow, she's listed right along with Theodore Robert Bundy. wg-))

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 8:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
The Italian transcript was done by police from the original Knox prison diary written in English, Michael. Didn't Fiorenza Sarzanini get sued for publishing the naughty bits? As far as I know, the transcript is the property of the state, but the original is Knox's intellectual property, subject to whatever exclusions apply to felons :)


It was not (the great) Sarzanini who got sued, it was the holding company of Corriere. They won on first appeal but lost at Cassation level.

Even though they all got to know what Michael long ago posted, that it was Knox's people who spread the diary around, it made no difference.

Corriere's legal fault was not one of copyright. It was in publishing passages in which Knox took others down, such as the list of those she had sex with recently/forever, a no-no under Italian privacy laws.

Knox got the financial award. Italian media reported this. I didnt see any US report, maybe because all Knox case-related income can be clawed back under US and Italian bloodmoney laws.

Ironically with her own defamatory book Knox has run foul of the self-same laws and in due course stands to lose much more.

The Sarzanini book is still on sale in Italy and there was no ruling that it had to be withdrawn.

http://www.amazon.it/Amanda-perdute-int ... +sarzanini

We have it, including in English, and it is a revealing read.

Knox's book was put into Italian, but an Italian (and UK) publishing was dropped at the last minute, days after Cassation ruled in April last year.

The shadow writer Linda Kulman and the publishers actually took a lot of defamation out of Knox's book before the US version hit the presses.

Hard to believe, it is still a rabid piece of work.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Weiner's changed her Twitter tactics. She's now doing drive-by's and hit & runs :)

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
The Italian transcript was done by police from the original Knox prison diary written in English, Michael. Didn't Fiorenza Sarzanini get sued for publishing the naughty bits? As far as I know, the transcript is the property of the state, but the original is Knox's intellectual property, subject to whatever exclusions apply to felons :)


I am not a lawyer, but I assume reporting the facts of the case including Amanda Knox's diary would probably rather concern privacy laws than copyright laws. Maybe both?

I believe that was also Knox's complaint when she sued Sarzanini and Corriere della Sera.

Of course, if someone would publish one of her creative rape stories under their own name, pretending to be the original author, it would be copyright infringement, otherwise, I think it's more a privacy issue.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I have the Sarzanini book in Italian, Fast Pete. Who published it in English? Go to add that to my list of case related books.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I'm hearing that Jim Clemente has insinuated that Rudy Guede's lawyers were sent to Germany and paid for by Mignini's office. Bunk!

Rudy's legal team was assigned and paid for by the Ivorian Government when they heard of his arrest in Germany, as Guede retained his Ivorian citizenship (had Italian residency only) and they saw him as their ward and it was a high profile case.

Clemente would know this, had he bothered fact checking.

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Offline Fast Pete


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
I have the Sarzanini book in Italian, Fast Pete. Who published it in English? Go to add that to my list of case related books.


Its not (yet) published in English, it was translated by someone who thinks it should be, no legal reason not to.

They are in touch with Sarzanini; and I think when Cassation finally rules we may see progress on the publishing front.

The book riffs the passages in the PDF which Nell linked to on the RS site. Its very smart, presumes AK is in it up to her neck.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael wrote:
I'm hearing that Jim Clemente has insinuated that Rudy Guede's lawyers were sent to Germany and paid for by Mignini's office. Bunk!

Rudy's legal team was assigned and paid for by the Ivorian Government when they heard of his arrest in Germany, as Guede retained his Ivorian citizenship (had Italian residency only) and they saw him as their ward and it was a high profile case.

Clemente would know this, had he bothered fact checking.


Mignini had and has zero interest in police sources. He is a prosecutor, not a cop. Mignini didnt even know of Guedes existence until forensics zoomed in on him.

If Clemente DID fact check the attack itself, he'd find that the profile of the leader of the attack by the best crime scene analysts in Italy (way better than the mediocre Clemente) exactly fits the known Knox (not Clemente's invention) and points to no-one else.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 2:55 pm   Post subject: CLEMENTE WEINER TWITTER DEBATERS   

For those following the historiography of the Clemente/Weiner debate, it started here: https://twitter.com/KrisArnason/status/ ... 9010496512, I was having testy exchanges with Jim Clemente by Jan. 17, lots more after that, which led to his challenge to me on March 07, 2014, first to debate him, then right after, that I was 'too afraid' to appear on his show.

By then, Jim had already established his bias, bombasticness, appeal to authority (Steve Moore on IIP :) and all around lack of knowledge of the case. He (and Steve) have been influenced a great deal by prior writings of John Douglas and before that, Douglas Preston, and those of us who followed the case know of their connections with Mario Spezi, with Frank Sfarzo to further poison the well.

It would be so easy to dismiss the crew of instant experts attached to the case as media whores wanting to get their share of limelight. The problem is they're the ones with media access who have so undermined this case and public perception with their lies. Unless they're refuted every time they open their mouths, they prevail.

I've been on Twitter from August 2010 and see this platform as one way to get our message across. Twitter is where you meet new blood who get interested in the case, compare the reasonableness of our position vs theirs, and decide to follow us. At every step of the way, we link back to the source documents and analyses on PMF/TJMK/TMOMK. The other side has nothing but abuse and snipe, and lose the debate every time.

It takes a while to figure out the search functions, how to use the # and @tags, search for terms. That's what savvy journalists are doing now to figure out what's trending, and funny thing is, old school media still haven't figured twitter out. Every time Jim and Allison open their mouths there, they really shouldn't.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 3:22 pm   Post subject: ADMINISTRATOR NOTE!   

Administrator Note:

Hi Everyone,

It seems that eBook readers are starting to become all the rage and so I've been doing a little work this afternoon. I have converted some of the case's key documents to ePUB format which should enable you to have versions for eBook reading. You will find the ePUB files in the Legal Context subforum. An ePUB version of the Massei Report is also available there. For those who don't have an eBook reader you can still read ePUB files on your PC with a free ePUB file reader like this one: http://www.epubfilereader.com/

Note: Some of the conversions may not be perfect

Cheers

Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 3:25 pm   Post subject: THE EXPERT JIM CLEMENTE (AND YOU ARE NOT)   

#JimClemente http://thelip.tv/episode/isis-extremist ... -lawsuits/ discusses #amandaknox case (from 28:00) "I don't need to look at documents when I KNOW they're wrong".
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Bruce Fischer reaches a new low by composing (= photoshopping) Amanda Knox's image onto one of Meredith Kercher's photos suggesting they were friends.

He does not clarify that the image is a fake and to newcomers it won't be obvious.

He also omits the fact that the messages he pasted into his 'poster' don't reflect the whole story and that Knox's last message asking Meredith to call her later was ignored.

This is pretty disgusting considering the circumstances. Copying the woman convicted for Meredith's murder into her picture. That's sick.

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Offline dgfred


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

King of the punks.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

dgfred wrote:
King of the punks.


The guy is a loser and under normal circumstances I would just ignore him, but when he publishes his lies, I am of the opinion that they need to be challenged.

Yesterday Bruce Fischer sent me a flood of tweets insisting that the bra strap imprint in blood was a "pattern caused by the tile seams". He also falsely claimed that other tile seams showed the same pattern. The guy is hopeless.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:14 pm   Post subject: OPEN LETTER TO THE SOLLECITOS   

Always interested to know what the Sollecito family will offer NEXT :)

By now, it is no secret they've been leaking evidence files to us for a while in an effort to affect public perception and negate Amanda Knox's chances of extradition.

The funny thing is, I approached RS on social media more than a year ago when he was answering questions. He always was the weak link, and wanted to see what could be shaken out of him.

I'm known by my real name and @ManFromAtlan on Twitter/Facebook/Discus, so he didn't realize who I was until the Annellas/Noels/Michelles all arrived screeching "don't talk to Ergon", LOL, as if they weren't already talking to others.

Then when I was offered the latest round of documents I made it clear it wasn't enough to interest me (no disrespect to those posting them, they are doing a brilliant job!)

Cristina Magnani even asked me at one point, "do you believe Raffaele's innocent?" No, but if you want to say something substantive, Sollecito family, I'm all ears.

My suggestion would be, a full confession, express contrition, shift blame on to Amanda Knox. You'll be out in 8 years, not when you're an old man.

Raffaele Sollecito tortured Meredith Kercher with his pocket knife. The evidence is very clear on that, and I'm not interested in any thing that says AK acted alone, or he merely helped with the clean up.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I agree with you 100% Nell. Lies need to be refuted. The only downside to replying to Bruce is he then says we're 'obsessed' with him :)

Jim Clemente does the whiny Lisa Marie Basile thing "a flood of abusive tweets" and implies someone sent a threat of actual physical harm, then at the end of their whine fest, they all promote themselves/websites/books.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:46 am   Post subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO THE SOLLECITOS   

Ergon wrote:
Always interested to know what the Sollecito family will offer NEXT :)

By now, it is no secret they've been leaking evidence files to us for a while in an effort to affect public perception and negate Amanda Knox's chances of extradition.

The funny thing is, I approached RS on social media more than a year ago when he was answering questions. He always was the weak link, and wanted to see what could be shaken out of him.

I'm known by my real name and @ManFromAtlan on Twitter/Facebook/Discus, so he didn't realize who I was until the Annellas/Noels/Michelles all arrived screeching "don't talk to Ergon", LOL, as if they weren't already talking to others.

Then when I was offered the latest round of documents I made it clear it wasn't enough to interest me (no disrespect to those posting them, they are doing a brilliant job!)

Cristina Magnani even asked me at one point, "do you believe Raffaele's innocent?" No, but if you want to say something substantive, Sollecito family, I'm all ears.

My suggestion would be, a full confession, express contrition, shift blame on to Amanda Knox. You'll be out in 8 years, not when you're an old man.

Raffaele Sollecito tortured Meredith Kercher with his pocket knife. The evidence is very clear on that, and I'm not interested in any thing that says AK acted alone, or he merely helped with the clean up.




Out in 8? where did you get that from, he will not be out within 8 years, not now.

Too late for that.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:42 am   Post subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO THE SOLLECITOS   

Ergon wrote:
Always interested to know what the Sollecito family will offer NEXT :)

By now, it is no secret they've been leaking evidence files to us for a while in an effort to affect public perception and negate Amanda Knox's chances of extradition.

The funny thing is, I approached RS on social media more than a year ago when he was answering questions. He always was the weak link, and wanted to see what could be shaken out of him.

I'm known by my real name and @ManFromAtlan on Twitter/Facebook/Discus, so he didn't realize who I was until the Annellas/Noels/Michelles all arrived screeching "don't talk to Ergon", LOL, as if they weren't already talking to others.

Then when I was offered the latest round of documents I made it clear it wasn't enough to interest me (no disrespect to those posting them, they are doing a brilliant job!)

Cristina Magnani even asked me at one point, "do you believe Raffaele's innocent?" No, but if you want to say something substantive, Sollecito family, I'm all ears.

My suggestion would be, a full confession, express contrition, shift blame on to Amanda Knox. You'll be out in 8 years, not when you're an old man.

Raffaele Sollecito tortured Meredith Kercher with his pocket knife. The evidence is very clear on that, and I'm not interested in any thing that says AK acted alone, or he merely helped with the clean up.


Just for the record, I have not had any contact with the Sollecito's or people who support them.

It is a fact though, despite IIP's/IA's claims that Knox and Sollecito stand united, he is effectively throwing her under the bus, very publicly so.
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:31 am   Post subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO THE SOLLECITOS   

zorba wrote:
Out in 8? where did you get that from, he will not be out within 8 years, not now.

Too late for that.


I agree with you Zorba. I don't think there is any possibility that Sollecito will receive a lighter sentence in exchange for pointing the finger to someone else.

It is possible though that Sollecito might be earlier eligible for parole if he was to take responsibility. Parole is a privilege, it's not a right. Knox, who keeps denying any involvement and keeps blaming everyone but herself, might have less chances of an early release than a person taking responsibility and showing remorse.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Sollecito has already served 4 years of a 25 year sentence. He'll be eligible for parole in 8-10 years just for showing at prison.

Guede is already eligible for day release after 6 yrs. Under the Italian system, there you go.
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
Sollecito has already served 4 years of a 25 year sentence. He'll be eligible for parole in 8-10 years just for showing at prison.

Guede is already eligible for day release after 6 yrs. Under the Italian system, there you go.


That might be so, but it would apply even if he did not confess to anything. I meant that it was too late now for him to expect leniency in exchange for a confession.

"You will be out in 8 years, not when you are an old man" suggested to me that you meant he could receive a shorter sentence if he confessed.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
Sollecito has already served 4 years of a 25 year sentence. He'll be eligible for parole in 8-10 years just for showing at prison.

Guede is already eligible for day release after 6 yrs. Under the Italian system, there you go.



I think you are wrong on this, I read up on it ages ago, and as I recall, slightly, from the Italy Penal Code, sentences such as these mean they have to serve a minimum of 21 years before parole. I'll look it up when I have time, I may be mistaken but I don't think so.

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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:13 am   Post subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO THE SOLLECITOS   

Ergon wrote:
Always interested to know what the Sollecito family will offer NEXT :)

By now, it is no secret they've been leaking evidence files to us for a while in an effort to affect public perception and negate Amanda Knox's chances of extradition...


Billy Screech didn't get the memo!

(He can't figure out why AK's getting slammed with cocaine stories while no one is talking about RS! LOL)



PS What are the main reasons you think it's not reasonable to conclude that RS was just a stoned/ lovesick accessory after the fact?


Last edited by Jackie on Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:33 am, edited 2 times in total.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:25 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Nell wrote:
Bruce Fischer reaches a new low by composing (= photoshopping) Amanda Knox's image onto one of Meredith Kercher's photos suggesting they were friends....


These people have no shame.

If we photoshopped an image of Amanda fighting with Meredith and tweeted it all over hell, what would the furrier say about us?
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:47 am   Post subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO THE SOLLECITOS   

Jackie wrote:
Ergon wrote:
Always interested to know what the Sollecito family will offer NEXT :)

By now, it is no secret they've been leaking evidence files to us for a while in an effort to affect public perception and negate Amanda Knox's chances of extradition...


Billy Screech didn't get the memo!

(He can't figure out why AK's getting slammed with cocaine stories while no one is talking about RS! LOL)



PS What are the main reasons you think it's not reasonable to conclude that RS was just a stoned/ lovesick accessory after the fact?



Hey Jackie, great to see you! :)


Sollecito's role certainly wasn't limited to after the fact. Far too much time would have passed for Knox to get herself sorted out, cleaned up, got back to his apartment, spent the time offering her explanation of what had happened, then convincing him to help her clean-up/stage the crime scene, then come to a plan of action of how they were going to do it, then get themselves over to the cottage most likely by a circuitous dark route so they were seen by as few people as possible, then case the scene to make sure nobody has stumbled on to what had happened, then examine the scene to finalise ideas about what they needed to do and anything else you can think of. By all this time, the blood would have been dry, too dry for Sollecito to get so much blood on his foot to leave that print on the mat. That print was left during or immediately following the murder when the blood was wet, which places Sollecito there during the murder. Moreover, at least three people were heard running from the scene. Finally, at least two people would have been holding Meredith while someone (I'm guessing Knox) was standing in front of her teasing/torturing her with the knife (when the victim received the very shallow knife defensive wounds to her hands).

I also don't think Sollecito was a passive follower, I think he was more keen then that. I believe the murder to have been premeditated, one of the key things demonstrating that for me is the fact they went there with knives and in addition, why did Sollecito need to get his knife out when one was enough? It wasn't necessary. It was overkill. Meredith could have been threatened with the one knife, tortured with the one knife, murdered with the one knife. Since when are two knives needed for one person, especially when the victim is unarmed and there are three of you there to restrain them and one of you has a bloody great kitchen knife? It speaks to me of Sollecito being an active and eager participant from the get-go, not a passive follower. And the usage of the two knives tells me that from the very beginning of the attack, the intent was for Meredith to be dead by the end of it.

The two knives also suggest to me a prearranged "pact" for a perverse shared intimate experience between Knox and Sollecito, that they would both land the final blows together, upheld by the fact of the deep wound on one side of the victim's neck from Sollecito's knife and a much deeper wound still on the other side from the Knox wielded kitchen knife, Knox being the one that wanted to give the coup de grace. Importantly, Guede was clearly not part of this pact since he did not have a knife. And that fact is very telling about the dynamic of what went down.

Consider...if one knife was considered not to be enough and you're going to use two knives, why not then therefore use three knives? One knife would make sense. Three knives would make sense - three attackers, one knife each. Two knives, when looked at from a purely practical perspective, do not make sense. That's because the two knives were not used out of any practical need. Neither does it make sense if the intent was only ever to scare Meredith. Certainly, having three people with three knives would have a scarier effect then three people with two knives between them. If you want to scare, why go up to two knives but not go up to three, especially if there's three of you to wield them?

Two knives do make sense, when one considers that they were used as part a pact for a special, intimate shared thrill between two lovers. Guede sexually assaulted the victim, but the pact between Knox and Sollecito forbade each other from directly sexually interacting with their victim (they would have considered it cheating on each other). But, they did perform a sexual act, psychologically. Their (permissible between them) sexual act was to symbolically rape their victim by penetrating her with their knives. The ancient Roman short sword used by the Roman legionaries was called the gladius. It was the same word for penis. The Romans saw them as symbolically being the same thing, only one penetrates for love and the other for war. Or consider the not unsubtle sexual symbolism of the vampire who orgiastically penetrates their victim's neck with their fangs. After all, and it's an important point, if the intent was simply to kill her alone, why then not dispense with knives and use a far less bloody and more practical method, especially when you're killing your victim in your own home...a cord for strangulation? It would have been more practical and far less mess would have been made, with far less evidence to manipulate or get incriminated by. The choosing of the knives was deliberate, considered, and tells me they didn't simply want it to be terrifying and brutal, this wasn't just about getting rid of someone one of them didn't like (although, it was also that, it's why Meredith was chosen). It was also a psycho-sexual thrill kill between lovers who wanted to symbolically sexually penetrate (rape) her together in the final moments, their sexual climax.

This narrative tells us something else important. Guede was very deliberately not given a knife before the attack. This tells us that Rudy wasn't simply excluded directly after the attack. He was excluded, by design, before the attack even began. Although, he almost certainly didn't realise this. This pact and exclusion was worked out before even reaching the cottage and that pact was only ever designed to end in one thing...Meredith's murder. This was a planned premeditated murder by Knox and Sollecito.

An extra: Also consider this. Knox and Sollecito both performed the clean-up/staging while barefooted. This was so as not to leave shoe prints and to not get evidence on their shoes that would be extremely difficult to remove. NOW, here's the kicker...they also launched their attack on Meredith while both barefooted. They prepared, before the attack, by taking their shoes off. This was done for exactly the same reasons they took their shoes off for the cleaning/staging hours after the murder. Meredith's death was planned before the attack even began and the only reason for them to take off their shoes was to avoid the copious amount of blood they knew was going to end up on the floor. Note: And again, Rudy was excluded from this. He was shod. They were quite happy for him to keep his shoes on.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:39 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I would also like to add a further comment to my last post. Meredith was murdered because of Knox's deep resentment, anger and jealousy towards her. But, the act itself was carried out as a sexual thrill kill between lovers. It was a ritualistic murder, but the ritualism in this case was sexual. If anyone should doubt this dynamic, simply consider immediately after the discovery of the body down the police station. Knox and Sollecito were all over each other, they couldn't keep their hands off each other. Knox on Sollecito's lap, their making faces at each other and laughing, joking, the french kissing... it was because they were horny! Then, the next day, Knox shopping for her skimpy red g-string, Sollecito with his hands constantly all over her, their talking of going home for hot sex and this was to such a degree they made a public scene. They were still horny. Nobody reported them making such scenes in public before the murder. That's because, they were so horny specifically because of the murder. They were extremely turned on by what they had done to poor Meredith.

When people talk of the sexual dynamic in this crime, they speak only of Rudy's sexual assault, or the body sexually posed to emphasize a sexual attack, and these things of course were indeed done. But, the most important sexual dynamic of all was that between Knox and Sollecito and to not understand that, is I think, to not understand the core dynamic of the murder that night.

I also tentatively offer, Knox has some repressed homosexual attractions toward her own gender and that repression is one of her issues. It certainly was an ingredient of the murder.

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Offline LUFC1972


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 4:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Some commentary on the upcoming film 'The Face of an Angel' :

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/awa ... e20319501/
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Offline Sparkles


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Anyone speak Spanish (Colombian)?

This appears to be a criminal and behavioural analysis of Ak but he speaks too fast for my basic grasp of Spanish :)

CASO AMANDA KNOX – JUAN ANGEL ANTA – ESPAÑA - http://admejoresseguridad.com/archives/3705
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:38 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Sparkles wrote:
Anyone speak Spanish (Colombian)?

This appears to be a criminal and behavioural analysis of Ak but he speaks too fast for my basic grasp of Spanish :)

CASO AMANDA KNOX – JUAN ANGEL ANTA – ESPAÑA - http://admejoresseguridad.com/archives/3705


Hi Sparkles, thanks for the heads up. I speak a little Spanish, but our Nell is advanced fluent in it. Perhaps, she may like to take a look when she has some time.

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Offline Sparkles


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Thanks Michael. This has caused much debate on twitter and the presenter seems to be respected in his field. One poster exonerate_knox is really unhappy. I haven't seen any other pro-knox people comment yet but that's partly the language Barrier. the authors statement on twitter is follows:

@juanangelanta: @cate69 @Malobole @mortytoad @MrTonyMan the main conclusion is that her communication is incongruenty many times when speaking about MK..
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:45 pm   Post subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO THE SOLLECITOS   

Jackie wrote:
Ergon wrote:
Always interested to know what the Sollecito family will offer NEXT :)

By now, it is no secret they've been leaking evidence files to us for a while in an effort to affect public perception and negate Amanda Knox's chances of extradition...


Billy Screech didn't get the memo!

(He can't figure out why AK's getting slammed with cocaine stories while no one is talking about RS! LOL)



PS What are the main reasons you think it's not reasonable to conclude that RS was just a stoned/ lovesick accessory after the fact?


- Curatolo's sighting of the two of them from 9:30 PM on.
- If he were just an accessory after the fact he would have said so. Chances are, if he'd have said it then, got a lesser sentence.
- Don't read him as that lovesick. Knew she was seeing others. Accomplices throw others over all the time, but main characters do not, if they know evidence places at scene.
- Meredith restrained by several attackers. Pattern of bruises/wounds could not be AK/RG only.
- RG places him at scene.
- At least two different knives were used on Meredith. My analysis on the knives I published earlier shows the lesser wounds might be with his Brian Tighe knife, (whereas with the Kitchen Knife, I am positive)
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Just a thought out loud. As regular readers here will know, over the past year or so I have changed my mind about the murder from originally considering it to be a nasty prank/hazing gone wrong or gotten out of control, to premeditated murder. At least by Knox, and I felt "probably" also by Sollecito. I did not believe this was the case with Rudy and that remains the same. I have however, adjusted my view to now be certain in my own mind, that it was was also premeditated for Sollecito.

As some have may recall, I believe Rudy was only present at the start of the attack and for the sexual assault but was not present the whole way through. For a range of reasons, I adopted the theory that shortly after the sexual assault, which I think was mercifully brief (although, of course, still terrible for the victim just the same) and not carried out with any enthusiasm by Rudy, realising that this wasn't what he'd signed on for, wanted out and left Meredith's room to take up temporary residence in the large bathroom over the other side of the cottage. This transfer would have taken place before any blood was spilled. It was then some minutes later that Rudy was alerted by the scream, rnb from the bathroom to Meredith's room to be confronted by carnage.

I still hold to this theory. But, one element of it I am now questioning in light of my post a two posts upthread were certain pieces of the puzzle slotted into place for me. The element I am now questioning, is whether Rudy unilaterally removed himself from the room to the bathroom. I am now wondering, if he was actually instead sent by Knox and Knife Boy. I am asking this, as I feel Rudy was recruited to play a certain role and that was to help initiate the attack to subdue the victim and to then carry out a sexual assault (although, I feel the others wanted Rudy to go further then he did). Once that had happened, his job was done, he was no longer needed as the rest the other two could do themselves. Nor do I think was he was even wanted. He was not part of the pact and so at best, he would have been intruding on their final act. At worst, he could potentially have interfered or even tried to stop them, as he had not been told this was intended to be a murder. Moreover, Knox and Sollecito could feel safe in sending him elsewhere in the cottage and carry out their murder confident that Guede wouldn't later be volunteering information to the police, as they had made him take part in enough of the attack to ensure that under the strict definition of the law, he would be regarded as being as guilty as they (and there is no plea bargaining in the Italian system for felonies and capital crimes). It may still actually be the case that Rudy left the room unilaterally, but in that event, I feel that if he hadn't of done so of his own accord he would have been dismissed. He was never given a knife, as they never intended for him to be present or active in the final act.

There was one serious way the pair, who were in full control of the situation from the start of the attack right up to the murder itself, made a fatal error shortly after that would have ensured that eventually, they would be caught. I've never seen this discussed before now. This fatal error, was [b]their failure to control Rudy in the immediate aftermath of the murder[b]. Rudy attempted to help Meredith and in so doing, he got blood on his hands which he then transferred in the form of his fingerprints and DNA to the outside of Meredith's handbag while moving it and his bloody hand print with his fingerprints onto the pillow. In addition, his bloody shoe prints in the hall which while they specifically would not have the potential to lead to Knox and Sollecito being caught, they would provide important details about the context and narrative of the crime, which once they were caught, would contribute to convicting them. You see, the key evidence left at this point, was the DNA and fingerpints. Had Knox and Sollecito done a better job with their lies and alibis and so were not arrested on the 5th Nov, they still would have been doomed. All that was required was for either Guede's DNA or his fingerprints to be on file (it turned out, his fingerprints were indeed registered with his identity card application) then that would have directly led to Rudy's identification and arrest. Rudy's arrest would then have led to Knox and Sollecito's arrest, as one can bet facing the blame all alone he would have swiftly pointed the finger at them. As it turned out, this never needed to happen as Knox and Sollecito had failed to flesh out their alibis and they were arrested before Rudy. But it doesn't matter, even if they had of avoided arrest they were always doomed because they had made the mistake of allowing Guede to help Meredith and then right after, interact with items in the room leaving key evidence that would lead to his identification. This mistake, meant all their partial cleaning, staging and lies, even if dome competently enough to send the police off track, would always have eventually failed due to the presence of Rudy's fingerprints at the crime scene.

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Sparkles wrote:
Thanks Michael. This has caused much debate on twitter and the presenter seems to be respected in his field. One poster exonerate_knox is really unhappy. I haven't seen any other pro-knox people comment yet but that's partly the language Barrier. the authors statement on twitter is follows:

@juanangelanta: @cate69 @Malobole @mortytoad @MrTonyMan the main conclusion is that her communication is incongruenty many times when speaking about MK..


Hi, Sparkles, that's an Eye for Lies Paul Ekman type analyst who did a commentary on AK's interview with Diane Sawyer and adjudged her speech and mannerisms as not that of an innocent person.

Exonerate Knox, or Ex-Knox as we call her on Twitter because she claims to be Not Knox :) is atwitter about how it's not a 'recognized science'.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Anyone else having trouble seeing the banner or links to Last Post?
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:44 pm   Post subject: THE WHIRLING DERVISH KNOWN AS EX-KNOX, WHO SAYS SHE ISN'T   

Re: the Eyes For Lies analysis by Spanish criminologist Juan Angel Anta that is getting a serious melt down from Not Knox. Here's his website Grupo Detecta

Grupo Detecta is a criminological services company specializing in the areas of detection of deception by verbal-body language analysis, prevention and analysis of crime and the treatment of serial criminals.

Three Mile Island Meltdown

Quote:
Juan Angel Anta ‏@juanangelanta · Sep 4
Caso AMANDA KNOX-Analisis Criminologico y Verbo-Corporal (Video).http://bit.ly/1w9UUjz


Quote:
Exonerate Knox ‏@Exonerate_Knox · Sep 4
@juanangelanta 100% MIERDA


Quote:
Exonerate Knox ‏@Exonerate_Knox · Sep 4
@juanangelanta the only way AK & RS are guilty is if they were also covering for their "friend" RG & framing him simultaneously. #illogical


Quote:
Exonerate Knox ‏@Exonerate_Knox · Sep 4
@juanangelanta read this. Real criminologist John Douglas knows what really happened. http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00I3QZ7G ... mdp_mobile


Quote:
Juan Angel Anta ‏@juanangelanta · Sep 4
@Exonerate_Knox ok. And please, you read her language ( verbal and non verbal) and her incongruentis.


Quote:
Exonerate Knox ‏@Exonerate_Knox · Sep 4
@juanangelanta meaningless. Not real science.


Quote:
Juan Angel Anta ‏@juanangelanta · Sep 4
@Exonerate_Knox of course. Neither non verbal-verbal communication. They are only more information but when there isn't proofs, could help us


Quote:
Exonerate Knox ‏@Exonerate_Knox · Sep 4
@juanangelanta being in jail over the crime for four years and sitting through two long trials about it?


His reply to the Knoxii: You're speaking from feelings

Quote:
Exonerate Knox ‏@Exonerate_Knox · 5h
@juanangelanta @cate69 @Malobole @mortytoad @MrTonyMan good for you. I still think your analysis is 100% MIERDA.


Quote:
Juan Angel Anta ‏@juanangelanta · 5h
@Exonerate_Knox @cate69 @Malobole @mortytoad @MrTonyMan Good argument!!. It describes you, and I'm aware that facs are painful.


Quote:
Exonerate Knox ‏@Exonerate_Knox · 5h
@juanangelanta @cate69 @Malobole @mortytoad @MrTonyMan when I google your field only your articles come up. Does anyone else do what u do?


Quote:
Juan Angel Anta ‏@juanangelanta · 4h
@Exonerate_Knox @cate69 @Malobole @mortytoad @MrTonyMan you're speaking ftom feelings and I'm speaking from science. Dificult to agree. Bye.


Anyhow, he'll summarize his findings, which will be translated by one of our translators. Knock Knox warns him not to speak to Ergon, for reasons unknown ;)


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Offline sherrel


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
Anyone else having trouble seeing the banner or links to Last Post?

Yep.

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael?
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Offline dmontnz


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

It is with a heavy heart I must declare Michael, for his extended posts above, completely insane. He should be banned from this site before he does irreparable damage to the cause of finding the actual truth in this killing. Ergon, please dissociate yourself for your continued credibility.

Note
You have been BANNED!!
Reason: For abuse, and, violation of the Tuesday Rule for Friends Of Amanda Knox
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Offline corpusvile


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Dmontnz? Michael is admin and doing you a favour by allowing you to post here. His admin status can be inferred from the helpful "Site admin" attached to his name. It's really no surprise to me that you get gastric emptying/lag confused as I told you earlier on disqus, if you can't even understand who the admin is of a forum you happen to be posting on.
Also, after searching here & .org, I still haven't received any pm/email from you with this gastric evidence that'll conclusively prove poor Amanda as being a victim of a shocking miscarriage of blah-de-blah, as you said on the disqus forum we were debating on.
In conclusion... you're still confused. And Knox is still guilty as well as her addled knife & guru hentai porn obsessed ex.
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Offline max


Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:55 am

Posts: 1564

PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:59 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

The gastric emptying theory is one of the most obvious examples of the dishonesty of Knox supporters. Claiming a 3 hour delay of the start of gastric emptying is normal or probable is just a straight lie. The theory is even supported with links to articles that show half an hour is normal, but spin and spin and now the TOD is at 9pm. It is a miracle.

Another theory that made it in my top 3 of most deceiving is the luminol footprints were 'something' other than blood. This supported with lists that show incredible substances of which most don't even react with luminol as blood does. Pretending that once upon a time Knox walked in front of Meredith's door and rubbed some fruitpulp on her feet is just hilarious, but it is being endlessly twisted because the less sensitive and different TMB test was negative. Spin and spin and the luminol footprints right in front of a room with a pool of blood were from 'something' else.

To finish my top 3 of ridiculous theories I must add the contamination theories. Here one after the other is launched. One week Know once borrowed the bra, next week a glove person picked it up from a fingerprint of Sollecito on the door, then suddenly that is all dropped because it all came from the machine. Doesn't matter where it came from as long as it is not from Sollecito touching the bra. Primary DNA transfer? That makes far too much sense. Tertiary transfer is being promoted without ever going into the probabilities of that or any science to support it. Contamination theories are so exaggerated that basically every piece of evidence found on a floor should automatically be tossed. Anyway, spin and spin and it is all the fault of the evil Italians.

I don't know what it is. Some people are just trolling, others are in denial, or brainwashed. I once saw a program on how to straighten out a brainwashed person. It wasn't pretty. There are many more of those (the coercion theories are hilarious also). I laugh about it now :mrgreen:
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Offline corpusvile


Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 5:38 pm

Posts: 352

PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:14 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Well said Max, I had explained how he was getting confused over his gastric emptying on disqus to no avail. As for tertiary touch, I was debating this with Halkides on Ground Report & asked him to provide proof of tertiary dna transfer, clearly meaning tertiary touch within the context of our discussion and he put a link for tertiary dna transfer in saliva and then started playing with words and objecting that I hadn't said "touch" when asking for a citation. They're just a bunch of disingenuous fanatics imo.
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Offline tamale


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:13 pm

Posts: 615

PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:42 am   Post subject: Re: RAFFAELE SOLLECITO ON THE OUTS   

corpusvile wrote:
Ergon wrote:
In case you want to check Sollecito's GoFundMe page then not a single donation has been received from the Knoxers since the very public meltdown between the two and their supporters in July, just so you know :)


Heh sweet. :D
Sent you a pm with a link on that other issue btw. ;)


You might be interested to know MM has recently been articulating love and friendship on RS FB page. I hope his warm response was pretend. Facebook/RaffaeleSollecito. pp-(
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Offline corpusvile


Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 5:38 pm

Posts: 352

PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:07 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Lol, Fischer & the rest of the inner circle Amandamaniacs must have gotten on to her after that Giallo article & told her to try & patch things up pronto. :D
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