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XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -

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Offline Fast Pete


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
I like the bit where the court repeats how "his statements were suffering from evident pathological uselessness" :)


I like "Sollecito was required to pay costs" !!
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Offline Fast Pete


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
So if the motivations report was released only yesterday then Bongiorno has yet to file at ECtHR as I thought.


Shes a drama queen. Italian defense lawyers are notorious at ECHR for this. They get the opportunity because there are so many appeals which weaken the trial outcome.

A major weakness of both she and Della Vedova's ECHR appeal for Knox is they NEEDED TO CREATE A TRAIL OF BREADCRUMBS FROM THE START!!

There needed to be lawyer complaints on record early on, etc etc. Chances of reversing a judgment otherwise? Nil. Chances of some small token damages? Very slight.

RS is stuck with this for life. He would be better off had he never sued.
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Offline Fast Pete


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:09 pm   Post subject: Re: MCCANN, ER, KNOX SUES TO AVOID PAYING OUT?   

Ergon wrote:
Nothing happening so far, ahem.


You lost me here. What is this about?
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hi Ergon,

thanks a LOT for finding and uploading the Supreme Court motivations report!

Could you please link to your post containing the report so our guests wouldn't have to scroll down to the end of p.33 to download it? Thanks in advance.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:11 pm   Post subject: EMMY AWARDS   

So, what are the odds of the Amanda Knox Netflix docu winning an Emmy Award on October 5th? Any bets? Just kidding. ;)

Quote:
The News & Documentary Emmy Awards will be presented on Thursday, October 5th, 2017, at a ceremony at Jazz at Lincoln Center’s Frederick P. Rose Hall in the Time Warner Complex at Columbus Circle in New York City.


Actually, I couldn't find Amanda Knox in the full list of nominees for the 38th annual News & Documentary Emmy Awards: NOMINATIONS

Netflix
Extremis
City 40
Into the Inferno
My Beautiful Broken Brain
Team Foxcatcher
------------------------------------------------
The 2017 Creative Arts Emmy Awards winners have already been announced: EMMYS

List of winners can be found here:
SATURDAY WINNERS
SUNDAY WINNERS

Quote:
The remaining Emmys will be announced at the 69th Emmy Awards telecast on Sunday, September 17. Hosted by Stephen Colbert, the show will air live from the Microsoft Theater in Los Angeles Sunday, Sept. 17, 2017 (8:00-11:00PM, live ET/5:00-8:00PM live PT) on the CBS Television Network.

---------------------------------------------------
I'm a bit confused by all these award categories... In which category was Amanda Knox nominated, anyone knows?
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:34 am   Post subject: CASSAZIONE REPORT DENYING RAFFAELE SOLLECITO COMPENSATION   

guermantes wrote:
Hi Ergon,

thanks a LOT for finding and uploading the Supreme Court motivations report!

Could you please link to your post containing the report so our guests wouldn't have to scroll down to the end of p.33 to download it? Thanks in advance.


Sure, guermantes.

Here's the link to the OP, with a few translated bits after: viewtopic.php?p=132131#p132131
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:57 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Okay, I've researched the issue of Amanda Knox nominations and found this on IMDb:

Amanda Knox (2016)
Awards
Quote:
Nominated
Primetime Emmy Awards in the following categories:

Outstanding Documentary or Nonfiction Special
Rod Blackhurst
Brian McGinn
Mette Heide
Stephen Robert Morse

Outstanding Writing for Nonfiction Programming
Brian McGinn (written by)
Matthew Hamachek (written by)
Netflix
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5952332/awards?ref_=tt_awd

So, we'll have to keep an eye on Sunday's award presentation ceremony, I guess, as Primetime Emmy Awards will be handed out tomorrow night:

The 69th Primetime Emmy Awards with Stephen Colbert

Quote:
CBS and the Television Academy today announced that Emmy Award winner Stephen Colbert, the multi-talented host of The Late Show with Stephen Colbert, will host the 69th Primetime Emmy Awards, marking his first time as Master of Ceremonies for the event. The Emmy Awards will be broadcast LIVE from the Microsoft Theater in Los Angeles Sunday, Sept. 17, 2017 (8:00-11:00PM, live ET/5:00-8:00PM live PT) on the CBS Television Network.

https://www.emmys.com/news/awards-news/ ... mmy-awards

There are also Daytime Emmy Awards and News & Documentary Emmy Awards; that's why it's so confusing.

Or perhaps Amanda Knox didn't make the final shortlist of 5 (?) documentaries? I have no idea.... I seriously doubt they will win anything, but who knows. A little help from Knox's influential and well-connected friends can go a long way. I mean her literary agent Robert Barnett, who brokered book deals for such big names as Barak Obama, Bill Clinton, and George W. Bush, or a staunch advocate of Knox's innocence, Senator Maria Cantwell. Will they go to bat for her this time?

The Amanda Knox docu has also been nominated for five other awards (check it out.) Seemingly, the two film directors (+ Knox) don't suffer from modesty of any kind. :roll:
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:15 am   Post subject: Re: MCCANN, ER, KNOX SUES TO AVOID PAYING OUT?   

Fast Pete wrote:
Ergon wrote:
Nothing happening so far, ahem.


You lost me here. What is this about?

Madeleine McCann's parent sued Portuguese cop Goncalo Amaral for his book "Maddie, The Truth Of The Lie". They claimed he defamed them by saying their daughter died in the apartment and they covered it up. A Portuguese court awarded them 500,000 Euros in damages, but Amaral appealed and won because he was expressing his opinion. The Supreme Court upheld the appeal, especially referring to the European convention on freedom of expression. They awarded costs against the McCanns, and this opened the possibility Amaral could now sue them.

The parent's lawyer Isabel Duarte says she's filed an appeal to the European Court. British papers, fearing the litigious McCanns, say they'll fight Amaral to the end, except he's already won his case. They're suing Portugal FFS. Rather like Knox, and maybe, Sollecito?
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:30 am   Post subject: Re: EMMY AWARDS   

guermantes wrote:
So, what are the odds of the Amanda Knox Netflix docu winning an Emmy Award on October 5th? Any bets? Just kidding. ;)

Quote:
The News & Documentary Emmy Awards will be presented on Thursday, October 5th, 2017, at a ceremony at Jazz at Lincoln Center’s Frederick P. Rose Hall in the Time Warner Complex at Columbus Circle in New York City.


Actually, I couldn't find Amanda Knox in the full list of nominees for the 38th annual News & Documentary Emmy Awards: NOMINATIONS

Netflix
Extremis
City 40
Into the Inferno
My Beautiful Broken Brain
Team Foxcatcher
------------------------------------------------
The 2017 Creative Arts Emmy Awards winners have already been announced: EMMYS

List of winners can be found here:
SATURDAY WINNERS
SUNDAY WINNERS

Quote:
The remaining Emmys will be announced at the 69th Emmy Awards telecast on Sunday, September 17. Hosted by Stephen Colbert, the show will air live from the Microsoft Theater in Los Angeles Sunday, Sept. 17, 2017 (8:00-11:00PM, live ET/5:00-8:00PM live PT) on the CBS Television Network.

---------------------------------------------------
I'm a bit confused by all these award categories... In which category was Amanda Knox nominated, anyone knows?

The award the Knox documentary was nominated for is OUTSTANDING DOCUMENTARY OR NONFICTION SPECIAL guermantes.

It was presented last week September 09, won by Ava DuVernay's 13th.

Producer Stephen Morse followed someone on Instagram to show him off to the Emmy's in a tux, a hoping to win, then he lost :)
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:57 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Okay, I've found the Amanda Knox nomination(s) here: NOMINATIONS LIST (PDF) on p.49 (Outstanding Documentary or Nonfiction Special).

The other four documentaries are:

The Beatles: Eight Days a Week - The Touring Years; Hulu
A House Divided (Vice Special Report); HBO
L.A. Burning: The Riots 25 Years Later; A&E
13th; Netflix

And then on p.71-72 (Outstanding Writing for a Nonfiction Program).

Amanda Knox is competing against:

Anthony Bourdain Parts Unknown - Houston; CNN
The Beatles: Eight Days a Week - The Touring Years; Hulu
Bill Nye Saves the World - The Sexual Spectrum, Netflix
13th; Netflix

So what are the chances of it winning? We'll know it tomorrow night...

P.S. Thanks Ergon! Just saw your post above mine. :) On September 09, 13th won in both categories, uh-oh. Why then the award ceremony tomorrow night?
ETA: Found an answer to my own question: tomorrow's ceremony will feature only these finalists: EMMYS SEP. 17, 2017

It's all good; we don't have to worry anymore and can now turn our full and undivided attention to studying the Motivation report. :)

To all our visitors/readers: once again, to download

The Supreme Court Motivations Report [a definitive judgment], explaining the reasons behind the rejection of Sollecito’s compensation claim for unjust detention/imprisonment:

La quarta sezione penale della Corte di Cassazione con la sentenza n 42014 del 28 giugno 2017 [in Italian]

follow this link: viewtopic.php?style=6&p=132131#p132131
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:43 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Now if someone would like to translate. It's only 9 pages :)
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:24 am   Post subject: PR AGENCIES SETTING UP SOCIAL MEDIA ACCOUNTS   

From yesterday's The Independent
I used to work at Bell Pottinger
Quote:
I’ve heard firsthand from a former lobbying industry executive of repressive Middle Eastern governments personally bribing British journalists; of ‘war rooms’ pumping out made-up blogs and social media postings spreading fake news.

Quote:
the only reason Bell Pottinger was undone was because of the work of the South African opposition party to expose them. Without that, Bell Pottinger would still be free to represent the Oscar Pistoriuses of this world. And they’d be in good company.

Background: The Guardian
Bell Pottinger: father of executive at centre of scandal quits Rentokil board
Quote:
Chris Geoghegan introduced Gupta family to PR firm behind secret campaign to stir up racial tensions in South Africa - Bell Pottinger took on a £100,000-a-month contract to work for Gupta-owned Oakbay Capital, led by Victoria Geoghegan, which resulted in the PR and social media campaign focusing on “economic apartheid” and “white monopoly capital” in South Africa.

Did Gogerty Marriott set up Facebook and other social media accounts to defend Amanda Knox? I wouldn't know for sure, but really, the use of AstroTurf and sock puppet accounts go back all the way to oil industry, Big Pharma, State Department regime change, defenders of Israel. Having studied that trend since the Iraq war - see SourceWatch I would not be surprised. This quote was especially apropos though:
Quote:
Spray luminol across London’s major PR houses, and you’ll see similar blood spatters.
nw)
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
Now if someone would like to translate. It's only 9 pages :)


A machine translation of the report is available on TJMK here: ENGLISH TRANSLATION

Better than nothing. ;)
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Offline Sallyoo


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

The PR stuff on Knox and bots now looks like baby steps, and even Sollecito's 'Masters' dissertation on how many mentions his name got on social media was a bit ahead of the 'mainstream' thinking.

http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/us-fa ... 1830803863

http://comprop.oii.ox.ac.uk/2017/09/19/ ... r-twitter/

I hope you have read this book - not brilliantly compiled, but rather compelling.

https://www.amazon.com/Alternative-War- ... native+War

Anyway, back on thread!

The Cassation motivation report on 'no money for the lying toad' covers (at first reading) a little bit more ground than the Florence judgement (it derides his 'I was never allowed to speak' bleat, and dismisses the procedural prosecutorial mis-steps of Nov 6 - already addressed in yet another court hearing and found to be inconsequential), but fundamentally it repeats the Florentine analysis.

Nevertheless, I believe, (and here I disagree with TomM) he was indeed unjustly imprisoned. One has to say this, because IMO one has to accept the final cassation judgement on the murder charge, and the 'judicial truth' is that they had doubt, and annulled the Nencini conviction. The very fact that Florence, (and now Cassation), even entertained the compensation claim means, I believe, that those courts also accepted the judicial truth of unjust imprisonment.

However, both Florence and Cassation are crystal clear that (however unpalatable we find the word 'unjust') Sollecito brought his imprisonment upon himself. I'm okay with that, and I cannot believe that Bongiorno has a cat's chance in Hell with any further appeal to whatever court.
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Offline jamie


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Fast Pete wrote:
Ergon wrote:
I like the bit where the court repeats how "his statements were suffering from evident pathological uselessness" :)


I like "Sollecito was required to pay costs" !!


Sadly only 1,000€.
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Offline jamie


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Sallyoo wrote:
The PR stuff on Knox and bots now looks like baby steps, and even Sollecito's 'Masters' dissertation on how many mentions his name got on social media was a bit ahead of the 'mainstream' thinking.

http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/us-fa ... 1830803863

http://comprop.oii.ox.ac.uk/2017/09/19/ ... r-twitter/

I hope you have read this book - not brilliantly compiled, but rather compelling.

https://www.amazon.com/Alternative-War- ... native+War

Anyway, back on thread!

The Cassation motivation report on 'no money for the lying toad' covers (at first reading) a little bit more ground than the Florence judgement (it derides his 'I was never allowed to speak' bleat, and dismisses the procedural prosecutorial mis-steps of Nov 6 - already addressed in yet another court hearing and found to be inconsequential), but fundamentally it repeats the Florentine analysis.

Nevertheless, I believe, (and here I disagree with TomM) he was indeed unjustly imprisoned. One has to say this, because IMO one has to accept the final cassation judgement on the murder charge, and the 'judicial truth' is that they had doubt, and annulled the Nencini conviction. The very fact that Florence, (and now Cassation), even entertained the compensation claim means, I believe, that those courts also accepted the judicial truth of unjust imprisonment.

However, both Florence and Cassation are crystal clear that (however unpalatable we find the word 'unjust') Sollecito brought his imprisonment upon himself. I'm okay with that, and I cannot believe that Bongiorno has a cat's chance in Hell with any further appeal to whatever court.


Florence had to 'entertain' his compensation claim because under the CPP he was entitled to file a petition under the appropriate jurisdiction. The court did not need to express an opinion at this filing stage. The Penal Code also clearly states that compensation is not payable if there is negligent conduct on the part of the claimant. The prosecution was successfully able to argue there was misconduct by Sollecito.

In effect, he was not 'unjustly imprisoned'.
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Offline Sallyoo


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:42 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Oh, I was just going to let this lie, and the discussion die a death, but it's getting further broadcast, so I'd like to put my point of view on this.

I am absolutely delighted that Sollecito was denied compensation (for unjust imprisonment): I think the Florence Court detailed the reasons for denying compensation very clearly and convincingly, and the Cassation Court restated (perhaps even more elegantly) why he had brought this imprisonment upon himself.

He had led, by his consistent (proven) lying, failed alibi, and refusal to offer any information during interrogation, (or voluntarily), the prosecution to believe that he deserved to be imprisoned. Thus, his claim for 'retribution' was denied, correctly IMO, on the basis of Sollecito's "gross misconduct or willful negligence", which caused THE ERROR. (That is a direct quote from the Florence judgement.)

THE ERROR (which, judicially must be accepted) is that he was finally and conclusively not found guilty, and therefore (seems to me) that any Court must agree that his imprisonment was judicially 'unjust' - but (because of Sollecito's behaviour) the imprisonment was justifiable.

That's all. Florence and the 4th chamber of Cassation made good perfectly reasoned decisions explaining why, even though he ended up 'not guilty', he is barred (by statute) from claiming compensation - even though, to have even considered his claim, they had to start from the 'unjust imprisonment' presumption.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:37 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Sallyoo wrote:
The PR stuff on Knox and bots now looks like baby steps, and even Sollecito's 'Masters' dissertation on how many mentions his name got on social media was a bit ahead of the 'mainstream' thinking.

http://comprop.oii.ox.ac.uk/2017/09/19/ ... r-twitter/

Hi, Sallyoo, have you read Sollecito's dissertation? Yes, it may have been a bit ahead of thinking at the time. Maybe he perceived criticism of him 'abuse' but are you also thinking of the Amnesty study of abuse against female politicians? Good Morning Britain
Quote:
Diane Abbott appeared on Good Morning Britain this morning after a study by Amnesty found almost HALF of all the horrendous abuse female MP’s suffer on social media is directed at Britain’s first black woman MP, the shadow home secretary Diane Abbott.

The human rights watchdog uncovered 25,688 abusive tweets to women MP’s over six months leading up to the June 8 general election.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:42 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Sallyoo wrote:

I hope you have read this book - not brilliantly compiled, but rather compelling.

https://www.amazon.com/Alternative-War- ... native+War

No I haven't, Sallyoo, though I agree with the theme, of government sponsored disinformation campaigns, even if I disagree with the author's sole focus on Russia and Putin which is nothing on the scale of the West's, lol very lol.
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Offline Fast Pete


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
Sallyoo wrote:

I hope you have read this book - not brilliantly compiled, but rather compelling.

https://www.amazon.com/Alternative-War- ... native+War

No I haven't, Sallyoo, though I agree with the theme, of government sponsored disinformation campaigns, even if I disagree with the author's sole focus on Russia and Putin which is nothing on the scale of the West's, lol very lol.


Tks Sallyoo. I'm tempted to buy it now, but on a daily basis there is so much more pouring out.

The willing hijacking of Facebook and Twitter by bots is looking like a larger and more subversive effort all the time.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/23/opin ... ml?mcubz=3
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Offline Fast Pete


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Sallyoo wrote:
Oh, I was just going to let this lie, and the discussion die a death, but it's getting further broadcast, so I'd like to put my point of view on this.

I am absolutely delighted that Sollecito was denied compensation (for unjust imprisonment): I think the Florence Court detailed the reasons for denying compensation very clearly and convincingly, and the Cassation Court restated (perhaps even more elegantly) why he had brought this imprisonment upon himself.

He had led, by his consistent (proven) lying, failed alibi, and refusal to offer any information during interrogation, (or voluntarily), the prosecution to believe that he deserved to be imprisoned. Thus, his claim for 'retribution' was denied, correctly IMO, on the basis of Sollecito's "gross misconduct or willful negligence", which caused THE ERROR. (That is a direct quote from the Florence judgement.)

THE ERROR (which, judicially must be accepted) is that he was finally and conclusively not found guilty, and therefore (seems to me) that any Court must agree that his imprisonment was judicially 'unjust' - but (because of Sollecito's behaviour) the imprisonment was justifiable.

That's all. Florence and the 4th chamber of Cassation made good perfectly reasoned decisions explaining why, even though he ended up 'not guilty', he is barred (by statute) from claiming compensation - even though, to have even considered his claim, they had to start from the 'unjust imprisonment' presumption.


There's a real irony in this.

If Sollecito had not appealed to the Supreme Court in 2008 to be released and find himself sharply turned down, the Florence appeal court and Cassazione now might not have been so firm.

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/G ... English%29

The Gemelli court turned Knox down too in no uncertain terms.
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Offline Fast Pete


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

guermantes wrote:
P.S. Thanks Ergon! Just saw your post above mine. :) On September 09, 13th won in both categories, uh-oh. Why then the award ceremony tomorrow night?
ETA: Found an answer to my own question: tomorrow's ceremony will feature only these finalists: EMMYS SEP. 17, 2017


Yeah, Guermantes, there is such a ludicrously large number of Emmy awards that they get announced in several waves.

In gathering links to all the reviews (over 200) for a future post I got the feeling that Netflix and its production team did almost no interviews or other promotions.

As if they now know they have a hot potato in their hands and an Emmy award could have done them more harm than good.

Around Oscar time, same thing.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:44 am   Post subject: Re: Hello Jackie!   

bedelia wrote:


Hello Jackie!

I'll come out from lurking so you know you're not the only one still hanging on hbc)

1. Are you neutral as your quote above seems to imply? Or are you just kidding us?

Way back before the first guilty verdict, I occasionally wavered that perhaps I didn't know the whole story. I wasn't in the courtroom and I don't speak Italian. Maybe there were facts I didn't know about. But I always came back to the staged break-in and clean-up, the weird lies (especially Sollecito's story about pricking Meredith in his apartment), and Knox's pointing the finger at Patrick and NOT retracting that story. Since the first verdict, my position was confirmed and I've only become more sure after reading the court documents.

2. Regarding the rejection of compensation for Sollecito, I don't believe that is incompatible with the verdict saying the evidence was "insufficient". What they are saying is that Sollecito brought the suspicion upon himself through his actions therefore he was not charged and held "unjustly". It's still possible for him to be released due to insufficient evidence, even if we all know that is a boatload of rubbish. Hypothetically a guilty person can get off without enough evidence. Even if we think the Final ruling by the Supreme Court is contradictory it doesn't mean the ruling on compensation is contradictory.

Finally, I believe that the statement by the State Department "source" was actually a low level Knox groupie (working for the State Department) who implied that the US cared more about Knox than is/was the case. Other than Senator Cantwell I don't think I've ever heard anyone official in DC express support for her.

Good to see you all again! It's been awhile!

hugz-)


Well, HELLO to you, Beautiful Bedelia! (Am I the only one who notices that the PMF crowd is dominated by attractive women while the ISF/JREF/IA crowd is dominated by old men who are … well, let’s just say ... 'lonely for a reason'? ;-)

So nice to see you’re still following the twists and turns with me!

Sorry for the delayed reply, BTW! Without any case-related news, I didn’t have any reason to check the board before I took off for the summer and I missed your post!

As for my current position on this case, I’m just too baffled by all of these confusing and conflicting Italian judgments to reach any firm conclusion yet.

It was nice to have my earlier thoughts on the case affirmed by Harvard Professor of Law, Emeritus, Alan M. Dershowitz ("pretty strong" case against AK/ enough to convict her in USA), and by Oxford-Educated Professor of Statistical Genetics, David Balding (15 loci match = "strong" evidence against RS/ only need 10 loci match to convict in UK), but 2 things in particular have me moving to a more neutral position:

1) the annulment, which seemed to surprise everyone, including Bongiorno herself (if the translation is accurate, it strikes me as an incredibly bizarre ratio that, in addition to damaging BOTH the police AND the defendants, seems to turn on the same erroneous conception and application of the BARD standard that Hellmann displayed, but ... I’m not done sorting it out!); &


2) "The complexities of DNA transfer during a social setting" Mariya Goray & Roland A.H. van Oorschot, Legal Medicine 17 (2015) 82–91


Now, this study by G & van O is, AFAIK, the FIRST study (worthy of publication in a prestigious peer-reviewed journal) to demonstrate that “touch DNA” can, in fact, undergo tertiary transfer.

However, it was published AFTER the evidence and arguments phase of the proceedings had concluded, so I have NO idea how it could have (legitimately) informed the “reasoning" of the Supreme Court Justices.

Nevertheless, I am far more interested in the question of factual guilt rather than legal guilt, so I am all for looking at this case in light of the latest and best scientific research available, and the findings of this study do seem to represent a MAJOR boost for the D (seeking to establish an innocent explanation for the presence of RS’s DNA inside the murder room, on the victim’s severed bra clasp), but … this study really is a 'double-edged sword' for the D for 3 reasons in particular:

1) it indicates that, even under IDEAL conditions in a lab (smooth, hard, non-porous transfer surfaces, possibly with a little condensation present), tertiary transfer of touch DNA is a relatively low probability event;

2) it (inadvertently) demonstrates that bleach doesn’t necessarily destroy all DNA traces on a smooth, hard surface, even when applied in accord with the standard used by Australian police labs up to c. 2014 (a finding which utterly obliterates one of the FOA’s favorite talking-points about the knife); &

3) it underscores the failure of scientists for the D to put forward controlled experiments proving that touch DNA could, in fact, be reliably transferred from 'suspect to wood door to latex cop glove to clasp material’ under the same conditions of temperatre and humidity that existed in the cottage at the time in Q ("Any scientist offering views as to his/her expectations for the forensic findings under given case-related circumstances should be able to put forward documented set of controlled experiments whose relevancy to the case under dispute can be argued’’)


It would be interesting to see some intelligent discussion re the details of this study in relation to the circumstances of the instant case but none of the 5 or so remaining Knox Groupies on ISF seem to have access to anything but the 1 paragraph abstract (it’s just as well, I suppose … none of them appear to have any formal schooling in the biological sciences - indeed, one of them does not even know what a gene locus is - Hi, Lyin’ Billy "Nutter"! Take a break! You missed ANOTHER summer! Would Jesus dedicate his life solely to the abuse of poor Ms. Vixen?! Shouldn't you be praying for her instead of mocking her and calling her names?! Your church thinks so ;-)

My question is: Why should I lean toward the lower probability scenario (tertiary transfer by sloppy police) rather than the higher probability scenario (primary transfer during murder and/or staging) given that RS lied to police and offered false alibis?


And then, as always, there’s what I consider to be the ‘cornerstone' of this case: AK’s short but fateful Nov 5 Interview.

I am STILL, after all of these many years, trying to figure out what, exactly, happened, and when!

Incredibly, the Italian courts are, collectively, now offering us no less than THREE (3!!!) different versions:

1) per trial court & Nencini: VOLUNTARY incriminating statement (no fear of prejudice + no hope of advantage = admissible -> adverse inferences permissible)

2 ) per Hellmann: “OBSESSIVE LENGTH” yet adverse inferences still permissible re calumny (but not re murder?!)

3) per Florence court in police defamation case: police were TOO “NICE” (said no FOAKer ever!!!)

Which is it, Italy?! Just right; oppressive; or too “sugarcoated”?! Pick ONE! XD

So I’m staying tuned to the ECtHR in the hope it will shed some light on this question (notwithstanding my fear that the ECtHR seems to concern itself almost exclusively with 'due process' concerns without sufficient regard for 'crime control ‘ concerns - not something you want to see in the Age of ISIS!)

Lord knows the press isn’t going to be much help - I’m STILL waiting for a mainstream English language media outlet to report what the Supreme Court and, now, 2 subsequent appellate courts, have ACTUALLY written about AK’s “INDISPUTABLE” PRESENCE in the cottage, at the time of the murder … I honestly wonder how much longer she can go with her efforts to sustain media attention before SOMEONE in the mainstream US media FINALLY uses the words of the Court to blast her with both barrels…

Which remeinds me, here’s what the latest Supreme Court ruling (rejection of RS’s compensation claim) has for us:

18 settembre 2017 16:50“

Potrebbe interessarti: http://www.perugiatoday.it/cronaca/raff ... html/pag/2
Seguici su Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/pages/PerugiaTo ... 2986753754

http://www.perugiatoday.it/cronaca/raff ... html/pag/2

Google Translation - Four years in jail, but for Raffaele Sollecito no compensation: here's why …"His presence on the site of the murder, and particularly in the room where the crime was committed, is tied to the only biological trace found on the hook of the bra … however, there can be no certainty of its relevance, since this trace is insurmountable for second amplification, due to its smallness … There remains, however, a strong suspicion that he was, actually present in the home of Via della Pergola, the night of the murder, at a time, however, that it was not possible to determine. On the other hand, certain Knox presence in that house, it seems unlikely that he would not be with her. "The presence of Knox at home at the time of the murder - continues the Court - and the denial of his alibi, along with the contradictory statements of the Solicitude, never felt more in the course of the debate, therefore reinforced the conviction of the presence of Sollecito in the ' apartment, helping to form in the GIP the prospect of his involvement in the crimes he attributed to him that led him to the application of the measure If, therefore, Solicitude immediately informed him that he was present in the apartment, but that he had not taken part in homicidal events - as the absolute judgment seems to confirm, speaking of "mere non-punishable connivance"; if the call to the Carabinieri had not been executed by Sollecito only after an hour after the arrival of the Postal Police...


PS Shout out to my FLA crime-fighting partner, Olleosnep (aka "Crockett")! I sincerely hope you and yours were not harmed by Hurricane Irma. The fallout will likely make it much harder for me to convince my wife to head your way for a holiday anytime soon, but I still owe you at least a few rounds for your help investigating the shady world of turbo Porsche sales in Florida, and I WILL make good on it eventually! I swear! Best regards, "Tubbs"


Last edited by Jackie on Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:51 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Offline malvern


Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:27 pm

Posts: 503

PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1   

Hi Jackie, Do you have any thoughts as to why Amanda has said nothing about the SC finding she was present at the cottage and washed blood from her hands ? As you point out Sollecito was denied compensation in part due to his silence and lying around her known presence. It takes much of the blame off police and plants it squarely back where it belongs as far as their arrests.
Maresca and Mignini had something to say about it . I don't recall Amanda's lawyers or Bongiorno challenging that damaging passage in the motivational report. Amanda has been so quick to lay blame everyone but leaves this alone. Would it be on the advice of her lawyers to take these lumps and just be grateful there wasn't more. Has anyone over on those other sites ever for one minute acknowledged the translation and meaning? I think Bill has found a place where he can shake off the old restraints and write the word " slut" whenever he pleases.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:00 pm   Post subject: 'Forceful Declaration of Innocence' v. Damning Indictment   

Hi, Malvern!

Well ... it seems to me we now live in a world where reporters have become so concerned with ratings and focus groups, and so subject to the influence of paid PR professionals, billionaire book publishers and politicians, that it's become almost impossible to know where the truth lies. (Maybe it was always this bad, but it first came to my attention while following this case, long before the Rise of Drumpf.)

It's the Age of "#fakenews" and "Alternative Facts" and I, for one, am tired of having to constantly switch back and forth between FOX News and CNN to try to guess where the truth really lies! It's all SPIN. It's infuriating. And it's a shame. Particularly when I'm trying to assess whether I'm about to be nuked by North Korea! ;-)

And I think this sad state of affairs (the collapse of the 4th Estate) is EXACTLY what allows AK to run around the US, uncontested, claiming (likely on the advice of her new PR team) that the Italian Supreme Court gave her a 'forceful declaration of innocence' when, in reality, it seems they gave her a damning indictment that Americans really ought to be talking about (PRESENT during the murder, possibly covered in the victim's blood and, by implication, LYING to EVERYONE from Diane Sawyer to the Innocence Project Volunteers about what really happened that terrible night).

None of the more intelligent Knox-supporters are daring to touch the issue, but, over on "ISF" (Infirm Sausage Fest?), where 5 old men who love AK gather each day (to gang-abuse poor Ms. Vixen), their lead obsessive, Lyin' Billy "Nutter", is STILL chained to his keyboard, 24/7, putting up THOUSANDS of posts denying the reality of what the Italian courts have actually written, and are continuing to write, in respect of AK's alleged presence during the murder.

That this elderly "nutter", who appears to be built like Kim Jong-un, is claiming to be a "37" year old "hockey player" while delighting in calling others "liars", even though he has never ONCE apologized for LYING about what Nencini wrote on "page 243" of his judgment (Nencini did NOT assert that women have Y chromosomes!), says it all, really.

As does the fact he's now calling people "stupid" for daring to consider the state's DNA testing and analysis in a favorable light, even though he himself has confessed to not even knowing what a gene locus is! XD

BTW, I just had to laugh at your mention of Billy's apparent fondness for using the word, "slut" - I thought I was the only one who noticed it! Seems this Ex-Rev. is, by church standards, a really nasty/ bellicose piece of work! I still can't decide which I find more revolting: his idiotic lies, or his rank hypocrisy ... He'd better shape up because Jesus isn't the only one who's watching ;-)

I suppose that, at this point, nothing short of an all-out effort by the Kercher Family, perhaps by way of a MULTI-episode NETFLIX or HBO doc focusing on THEIR experience as victims of crime up against powerful interests (Senators, future President, US State Dept., CBS News "partnered" with GSM, HarperCollins/News Corp/Murdoch, etc.), in the vein of "The Keepers", could bring the REAL story, with all of its nuances, to the attention of Americans ...

And, for reasons I do not understand, the Kerchers have never shown any serious interest in what is happening on American TV screens, so ... it seems AK is free to keep courting fame and a TV show of her own, completely unopposed by any meaningful, newsworthy pushback ...
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Offline hugo


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:59 pm   Post subject: Re: 'Forceful Declaration of Innocence' v. Damning Indictment   

Jackie wrote:
None of the more intelligent Knox-supporters are daring to touch the issue, but, over on "ISF" (Infirm Sausage Fest?), where 5 old men who love AK gather each day (to gang-abuse poor Ms. Vixen), their lead obsessive, Lyin' Billy "Nutter", is STILL chained to his keyboard, 24/7, putting up THOUSANDS of posts denying the reality of what the Italian courts have actually written, and are continuing to write, in respect of AK's alleged presence during the murder.


When last sighted, the groupies were still plugging the 'cops fried four hard drives' meme. Nope, the computers were found to be already damaged when examined. Filomena's, one of the four, was already known to be damaged in the same way when they tried to boot it up at the Questura on the evening of 2 November. Of those examined, the only two undamaged were Sollecito's precious and expensive MacBook Pro -- and he wouldn't want to damage that, would he? -- and Patrick's Hewlett Packard, to which Knox and Sollecito never had access. Yet Patrick's computer was examined by the same officers in the same room with the same equipment on the same day and there was nothing wrong with it.

Judge Bruno, who repeated the 'cops fried four hard drives' meme, was simply copypasting from Bongiorno's appeal document. It's not a court finding.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:52 pm   Post subject: COMPUTER HARD DRIVES TRASHED?   

Hi, hugo. Sallyoo posted a very good article on the computers at True Justice The Status Of The Various Computers In The Case And Whether Anything Nefarious Happened To Them
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Offline jape


Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:57 pm

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:59 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I knew that Filomena had removed her computer from the cottage and then had to take it to the police. Had she tried to boot it up before taking it to the police? Is that in her testimony?
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Offline hugo


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

No, I don't think Filomena turned it on until the police asked her to. At which point everyone was a bit perplexed. When I said it was already known to be damaged, I meant it was already known to be damaged weeks before the tests on the other computers.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:51 am   Post subject: Re: 'Forceful Declaration of Innocence' v. Damning Indictment   

hugo wrote:
Jackie wrote:
None of the more intelligent Knox-supporters are daring to touch the issue, but, over on "ISF" (Infirm Sausage Fest?), where 5 old men who love AK gather each day (to gang-abuse poor Ms. Vixen), their lead obsessive, Lyin' Billy "Nutter", is STILL chained to his keyboard, 24/7, putting up THOUSANDS of posts denying the reality of what the Italian courts have actually written, and are continuing to write, in respect of AK's alleged presence during the murder.


When last sighted, the groupies were still plugging the 'cops fried four hard drives' meme. Nope, the computers were found to be already damaged when examined. Filomena's, one of the four, was already known to be damaged in the same way when they tried to boot it up at the Questura on the evening of 2 November. Of those examined, the only two undamaged were Sollecito's precious and expensive MacBook Pro -- and he wouldn't want to damage that, would he? -- and Patrick's Hewlett Packard, to which Knox and Sollecito never had access. Yet Patrick's computer was examined by the same officers in the same room with the same equipment on the same day and there was nothing wrong with it.

Judge Bruno, who repeated the 'cops fried four hard drives' meme, was simply copypasting from Bongiorno's appeal document. It's not a court finding.


Hey, Hugo - good to see you're still following the legal twists and turns, right to the bitter end (I'm hoping the applications to the ECtHR and, perhaps, RS's civil suits will help to shed some light. RG's behavior after his impending release could be interesting/ telling as well ...)

As for the groupies, it really is interesting to see how different posters, with a particular POV, evaluate different kinds of information...

Seems the last 5 groupies on ISF cannot even begin, just for the sake of argument, to postulate a GUILTY computer sciences major, much less contemplate what that GUILTY computer sciences major might be able to do with his specialized knowledge of computers to cover his (digital) tracks ...

I can't say I'm surprised - the remaining 5 are not what you would call the 'brighter lights' of the PIP crowd (short, little "acbytesla", for example, is now referring to people who disagree with him as "disease ridden vermin" who ought to be collectively buried in a hole someplace ... maybe he should change his screen name to 'cleansingbyhitler'.)

Fortunately, however, I've discovered that there are a few intelligent souls at IA, hidden in among the piles of garbage posted by GSM's useful idiots. Accordingly, I think it's a real shame that the brightest posters from the 2 sides of this debate have, for the most part, retreated to separate echo chambers, for, as I'm sure you'll agree, much can be learned when the sparks fly between 2 well-informed opponents.

I, for one, would love to see TomM and E44 duke it out as they go through some of the key legal issues - the Court's bizarre "reasoning" in the annulment is just begging to be picked apart from a common law POV (sure, that won't interest homely Scottish cow vets* who fancy themselves uniquely qualified to solve the Lockerbie bombing 3 decades after the fact, but it is of great interest to legal scholars, and I suspect it will be popping up in law review articles for many years to come ;-)


________________________
* Who better than a cow veterinarian to investigate and analyze the murky world of international terrorism, counterintelligence, Libyan spies, explosives, plane crashes & jurisprudence?! That's all covered in the first year of vet school, right?! XD

It's a pity Rude N' Repugnant "Rolfe" is so busy tending to her cows that she can't explain why she thinks OUR interest in the Kercher case should be "over" (even before the applications to the ECtHR have played out), while HER interest in the Lockerbie case continues to be justified almost 2 DECADES after the trial, and about 1 DECADE after the second appeal played out :)

(All of the groupies understand that the ends of Justice are not met when the innocent are convicted. However, very, very few of the them are concerned with the reality that the ends of Justice are also frustrated when the guilty are allowed to go free. In the result, most of them are unable to see that the process of evaluating/questioning the grounds for an acquittal is just as legitimate as the process of evaluating/ questioning the grounds for a conviction.)
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Offline Earthling


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:33 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hello everyone, it's been a while since I posted here. However, I recently viewed some of the CCTV images in the garage and car-park above the cottage for the first time, and I may have found something interesting. See what you think.

In this video, which shows images between 11 pm and midnight on Nov. 1st (the night of the murder), it's possible that we see AK and RS walking down to the cottage and then back up again, at 23:23 and 23:25, respectively.

At 23:23, one can see a couple walking across the car-park in a direction that I believe corresponds to going from Via Pinturrichio to the area of the cottage (down-hill). The woman is wearing a parka with a fur hood. The man is carrying a flashlight and wearing a dark watch-cap and white shoes.

At 23:25, one can see what I believe is the same couple coming back in the other direction. They are wearing the same clothing, although the flashlight is no longer in evidence. The man is carrying a white plastic bag (!). At a point half-way across the car-park, the man grabs the woman in an embrace and seems to kiss her. When they get to the other end of the car-park, as the man proceeds toward the metal stairs, the woman seems to almost faint for a moment as she leans on a car for support.

What do you all think? I was amazed at finding this, and wonder if anyone ever noticed it before.

This fits in with the timeline in that, at 23:20 is when the break-down car went on its merry way. If the lovebirds were watching from above in Piazza Grimana, it would make sense they would then feel free to proceed down to the cottage to retrieve incriminating evidence (the knife?) in the white plastic bag. The flashlight would come in handy, too.

Thanks to all who made this forum and The Murder of Meredith Kercher website possible.

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/d ... -11-15.mp4
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Offline malvern


Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:27 pm

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hi Earthling I'd viewed the footage of the couple leaving with the white bag before but never them arriving with a flashlight. Very interesting. There would be no need to carry a flashlight crossing through a lit parking lot under ordinary circumstances. The evidence could even have been tossed in the garage during the in initial escape. The couple were using the car park as a way to get back to the upper street, It does seem like the trip had a purpose which included was was in the bag. Why too the big hood she was wearing ? It amazes me that given the busy exit from the parking with the easy view there to Filomena's window people believe Guede would dangle there around 9pm.
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Offline Earthling


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Thanks for the comments, Malvern. You're right, I've watched several hours now of people walking through this car-park, and have only seen a flashlight in that one instance.

Can someone please confirm the geography of this car-park? That when the people are walking toward the camera, they are walking down in the direction of the cottage? And when they are walking away from the camera in the car-park, they are walking toward the metal steps up to Via del Melo and Via Pinturrichio? Thank you. Here's the camera footage. The car-park video is from camera 15. (The car entrance and exit are cameras 7 and 11, respectively. You can see the camera number when you take your mouse outside the picture; then, a blue bar shows along the bottom. On the left of the blue bar, it says "Telecamera-15" or whatever. On the right of the blue bar is the time.)

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/d ... -11-15.mp4

Somewhere on TMOMK, I was re-reading the main part of Curatolo's testimony, and he said how the two he saw and identified as AK and RS kept looking over the railing and seeming to argue. To me, this signified that they were watching the break-down car and tow-truck and waiting for its removal and for the intersection to clear. Curatolo also mentioned that they were there between 11 and 11:30 or so, which is about the time the tow-truck left (about 23:15 or so, according to testimony).

Here's a pair of RS's shoes, apparently. They are white.

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/i ... hoes_2.jpg

Did AK have a coat with a white or beige fur-trimmed hood? I don't know. Haven't been able to find any such pictures. If so, and if she wore it after the murder, I'd bet she'd trash it in case of any stray blood stains. Wouldn't you?

The embrace on the way "up" the car-park (assuming my geography is right; see question above) seems a bit unusual to me. It seems odd to me that two people who are walking quickly to get somewhere would embrace like that. (They do seem to be walking rather more quickly than the usual people walking around that night.) Of course, it might not be them, but still, it reminds me of the way AK and RS behaved the day after the murder, embracing in the yard outside the cottage. It could signify an embrace of "thanks" on Sollecito's part for AK going down with him to retrieve the knife. It is quite possible he was hysterical about leaving the knife there because his landlady would notice a missing knife in inventory; if a similar knife were found at the murder scene, and he's the boyfriend of a resident of the murder scene, that ties him to the murder pretty closely.

At 23:12 in that same video (link above), you can see a couple going "up" (again if my geography is correct) and it also looks like the same couple. Perhaps at this point is when the murder took place, and Mrs. Capezzali is about to hear them ascending the steel steps.

Here's a link on TMOMK with a compact list of all the ear- and eye-witnesses on the night of the murder.

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/E ... vember_1st

Thinking logically about their testimony, especially Curatolo's, is what got me looking at that car-park from 23:15 onward (after the tow-truck left and "the coast was clear", so to speak).


Last edited by Earthling on Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline malvern


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

The couple are walking away with the bag in the direction of the metal stairs. When the couple are walking with the flashlight they are walking in the direction of the lite stairwell leading to the lower level exit across the street from the cottage.
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Offline Earthling


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:35 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

That's what I thought. Thank you, Malvern, for confirming that!
th-)
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:36 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hi, Earthling, some of us had noticed the couple in the upper parking level @23:23 and 23:35. Note they are the same height though as they walk back and forth. Knox is 5' 3" and Sollecito around 5' 7".
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Offline jape


Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:57 pm

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:26 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

More likely to be a phone than a flashlight and, if you notice, the guy is occasionally looking down at it.

Couldn't be Sollecito reading the text his father had sent him at 11 pm as that did not arrive until much later because his phone was off.

Also the time between their disappearance and re-appearance is much too short for anything other than the collection of the bag.

What this montage from the cameras does show is that the road and activity in and around the car park on that evening was much too busy for anyone to contemplate throwing rocks at windows and dangling off window ledges just a few yards away.

At least Massei and his colleagues had visited the site and understood the locality and it's ambience.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

jape wrote:
More likely to be a phone than a flashlight and, if you notice, the guy is occasionally looking down at it.

Couldn't be Sollecito reading the text his father had sent him at 11 pm as that did not arrive until much later because his phone was off.

Also the time between their disappearance and re-appearance is much too short for anything other than the collection of the bag.

What this montage from the cameras does show is that the road and activity in and around the car park on that evening was much too busy for anyone to contemplate throwing rocks at windows and dangling off window ledges just a few yards away.

At least Massei and his colleagues had visited the site and understood the locality and it's ambience.


Hi, jape, Sollecito and Knox both had their phones turned off until the next morning?
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:23 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

From Ansa:

'Six years free' tweets Knox

Rome, October 4 - Amanda Knox on Wednesday celebrated the sixth anniversary of her release from Italian jail in the Meredith Kercher murder case.
"Six years free," she tweeted.
In mid-August the Seattle-born former Perugia exchange student said she wants to return to Italy and Perugia, where she was convicted and later acquitted of murdering fellow student Kercher, to "close the circle".
Six years after leaving jail and three years after being acquitted, Knox, now an occasional freelance journalist and miscarriage of justice activist, revealed her plans to People magazine.
"I aim to go back to Perugia; I'm scared but I want to return to be just a person in a place, to have a memory that isn't linked to the trial, and so that could be my last memory of that place," she said.


ANSA
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:00 pm   Post subject: Re: Hello Jackie!   

Jackie wrote:
1) the annulment, which seemed to surprise everyone, including Bongiorno herself (if the translation is accurate, it strikes me as an incredibly bizarre ratio that, in addition to damaging BOTH the police AND the defendants, seems to turn on the same erroneous conception and application of the BARD standard that Hellmann displayed, but ... I’m not done sorting it out!);


Hi Jackie. Which annulment? You refer to Marasca/Bruno I think? But the only true annulment was of Hellman.

Jackie wrote:
And then, as always, there’s what I consider to be the ‘cornerstone' of this case: AK’s short but fateful Nov 5 Interview.

I am STILL, after all of these many years, trying to figure out what, exactly, happened, and when!

Incredibly, the Italian courts are, collectively, now offering us no less than THREE (3!!!) different versions:

1) per trial court & Nencini: VOLUNTARY incriminating statement (no fear of prejudice + no hope of advantage = admissible -> adverse inferences permissible)

2 ) per Hellmann: “OBSESSIVE LENGTH” yet adverse inferences still permissible re calumny (but not re murder?!)

3) per Florence court in police defamation case: police were TOO “NICE” (said no FOAKer ever!!!)

Which is it, Italy?! Just right; oppressive; or too “sugarcoated”?! Pick ONE! XD


The Italian public did. The answer is firmly Court (1). Court (2) was provably bent and the outcome anulled and only FOA still hark back to that.

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tj ... teriously/

Court (3) Boninsegna got terminally muddled and misses out many things quite plainly there in the transcripts. (He was about to be arrested himself and may not have been at his best).
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:09 pm   Post subject: Re: Hello Jackie!   

Fast Pete wrote:
Court (3) Boninsegna got terminally muddled and misses out many things quite plainly there in the transcripts. (He was about to be arrested himself and may not have been at his best).

Hello Pete,
Boninsegna was arrested? Pity his ruling wasn't appealed.
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Offline Fast Pete


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1   

malvern wrote:
Hi Jackie, Do you have any thoughts as to why Amanda has said nothing about the SC finding she was present at the cottage and washed blood from her hands ? As you point out Sollecito was denied compensation in part due to his silence and lying around her known presence. It takes much of the blame off police and plants it squarely back where it belongs as far as their arrests.
Maresca and Mignini had something to say about it . I don't recall Amanda's lawyers or Bongiorno challenging that damaging passage in the motivational report. Amanda has been so quick to lay blame everyone but leaves this alone. Would it be on the advice of her lawyers to take these lumps and just be grateful there wasn't more. Has anyone over on those other sites ever for one minute acknowledged the translation and meaning? I think Bill has found a place where he can shake off the old restraints and write the word " slut" whenever he pleases.


Good question Malvern.

Knox hasn't really been confronted with the real outcome by any US main media yet. The release of Marasca/Bruno was something of a media non-event, the big event had been back in March, and no translation by media was done. (They are now interested. Stay tuned.)

Also the M/B translation by the Knox people contained a key "mistake" Knox may have absorbed and felt reassured, which Machiavelli pointed out here.

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php ... _and_lied/

Knox now is a client of a speakers bureau in Durham North Carolina and they have begun to farm her out for a negotiated fee. Three speaking assignments were with Bar Associations. We missed the one in Florida, but we wrote to the organizers of the ones in Kentucky and California explaining the true M/B outcome and illustrating some common lies.

We suggested they ask for their money back. Knox seems to have done no speaking for a fee since then.
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 856

Location: New York

PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Earthling wrote:
Can someone please confirm the geography of this car-park?


Hi Earthling, there are some images of the parking structure here which may help.

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php ... the_night/

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php ... e_was_on_/

Pete
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 856

Location: New York

PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:46 pm   Post subject: Re: Hello Jackie!   

Ergon wrote:
Fast Pete wrote:
Court (3) Boninsegna got terminally muddled and misses out many things quite plainly there in the transcripts. (He was about to be arrested himself and may not have been at his best).


Hello Pete,
Boninsegna was arrested? Pity his ruling wasn't appealed.


Hi Ergon. Pretty funny, right?!! He was arrested in March 2016, for a nod and a wink to a mafioso it seems. Voice-only YouTube here. It could not be proved.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75iHKl4aN70&t=3401s

The absurd Boninsegna ruling SHOULD have been appealed. But the deadline was short, and this was an old complaint by some Questura staff, and they had to pay some legal fees.

And Knox HAD served three years for lying, which had kind of proved their point.

I believe Boninsegna's "mistakes" are all known to the ECHR. If Knox DOES win some small award, which seems all there is in the cards, I doubt it will be based on what he ruled.

And the ruling on the failed Sollecito bid for damages failure applies at least equally to her.
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Offline Earthling


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Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:25 pm

Posts: 512

Location: USA

PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
Hi, Earthling, some of us had noticed the couple in the upper parking level @23:23 and 23:35. Note they are the same height though as they walk back and forth. Knox is 5' 3" and Sollecito around 5' 7".


Maybe you're right. I just wonder if the woman's fur-rimmed hood might add height to her.

The camera's position may have an effect, as well. Their heights may be foreshortened.

A couple that looks similar also walks in the direction from the cottage at 23:12.

Nara Capezalli heard the scream followed by footsteps on the metal stairs at the end of that car park sometime between 23:00 and 23:30.
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Offline Earthling


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Fast Pete wrote:
Earthling wrote:
Can someone please confirm the geography of this car-park?


Hi Earthling, there are some images of the parking structure here which may help.

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php ... the_night/

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php ... e_was_on_/

Pete


Thanks, Pete!

Has anyone totally mapped out the car-park and where Cameras 7, 11, and 15 are situated?

I think that's the two of them at 17:34-35 on Camera 11 (the car exit). I'm not sure where that is but I assume it's at the far end according to camera 15 (the upper-level car-park), because cars seem to be exiting that way.

So the two of them are about to go out where Camera 11 is, at 17:34, then he looks at a map and they turn around and go back. By 17:45, they are back in his apartment, according to Popovic. Not much time spent in town, was it?
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Offline jamie


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Joined: Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:42 pm

Posts: 133

PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:31 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Earthling wrote:
Fast Pete wrote:
Earthling wrote:
Can someone please confirm the geography of this car-park?


Hi Earthling, there are some images of the parking structure here which may help.

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php ... the_night/

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php ... e_was_on_/

Pete


Thanks, Pete!

Has anyone totally mapped out the car-park and where Cameras 7, 11, and 15 are situated?

I think that's the two of them at 17:34-35 on Camera 11 (the car exit). I'm not sure where that is but I assume it's at the far end according to camera 15 (the upper-level car-park), because cars seem to be exiting that way.

So the two of them are about to go out where Camera 11 is, at 17:34, then he looks at a map and they turn around and go back. By 17:45, they are back in his apartment, according to Popovic. Not much time spent in town, was it?


I don't think the man she is seen with (or someone who looks like her) at 17:34 is Sollecito. The same person seems to be walking with the same woman, who looks like Knox, at 18:17/49, but without his hat.


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Offline Jackie


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Posts: 898

PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:57 am   Post subject: Knox was present? Zellner's Avery appeal failed? Says WHO?!   

Fast Pete wrote:
malvern wrote:
Hi Jackie, Do you have any thoughts as to why Amanda has said nothing about the SC finding she was present at the cottage and washed blood from her hands ? As you point out Sollecito was denied compensation in part due to his silence and lying around her known presence. It takes much of the blame off police and plants it squarely back where it belongs as far as their arrests.
Maresca and Mignini had something to say about it . I don't recall Amanda's lawyers or Bongiorno challenging that damaging passage in the motivational report. Amanda has been so quick to lay blame everyone but leaves this alone. Would it be on the advice of her lawyers to take these lumps and just be grateful there wasn't more. Has anyone over on those other sites ever for one minute acknowledged the translation and meaning? I think Bill has found a place where he can shake off the old restraints and write the word " slut" whenever he pleases.


Good question Malvern.

Knox hasn't really been confronted with the real outcome by any US main media yet. The release of Marasca/Bruno was something of a media non-event, the big event had been back in March, and no translation by media was done. (They are now interested. Stay tuned.)

Also the M/B translation by the Knox people contained a key "mistake" Knox may have absorbed and felt reassured, which Machiavelli pointed out here.

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php ... _and_lied/

Knox now is a client of a speakers bureau in Durham North Carolina and they have begun to farm her out for a negotiated fee. Three speaking assignments were with Bar Associations. We missed the one in Florida, but we wrote to the organizers of the ones in Kentucky and California explaining the true M/B outcome and illustrating some common lies.

We suggested they ask for their money back. Knox seems to have done no speaking for a fee since then.


Hello, again, Pete & Malvern

In my answer (above) to Malvern (lamenting the apparent disappearance of professional journalists willing and able to present BOTH sides of an issue, in a fair, balanced, objective, thorough and accurate way, FREE FROM ANY EDITORIALIZING/ SPIN), I forgot to trot out my oft-repeated reference to Cassell, in the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy, who, at the end of the day, might be giving us the BEST explanation for the abject failure of the US media to report that the Supreme Court affirmed the finding that Knox was present during the murder:

P. Cassell, "The guilty and the 'innocent': An examination of alleged cases of wrongful conviction from false confessions", Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy, 1999:

"...academic research on miscarriages should not rely on media descriptions of the evidence against defendants. Journalists will all too often slant their reports in the direction of discovering "news" by finding that an innocent person has been wrongfully convicted."


I can't find any better explanation for the shocking lack of coverage re Zellner's crash & burn (yesterday) with Avery's appeal! After the AMAZING amount of interest stirred up in the wake of Avery's 'NETFLIX Defense', the virtual silence emanating from the major US media outlets right now is almost as stunning as their failure to tell Americans what the Italian Supreme Court REALLY wrote about Knox!

In terms of Pete's hint that the tide is somehow going to turn on Knox-coverage, I am heartened to see that every once in a (VERY rare) while, some fantastic journalist will find a way to skirt their profession's predilection for defending the accused/ slamming the state, to lend a helping hand to VICTIMS of crime in THEIR search for Justice.

Several months ago, I mentioned the fabulous true crime docu-series "The Keepers" on NETFLIX, as a shining example of this, and I've recently discovered ANOTHER great one:

Image

"Badlands, Texas", by the folks at National Geographic (you can watch it right now on NETFLIX), detailing a murder in 2014 of a beloved bar owner in tiny Terlingua, Texas.

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/badlands-texas/

I can't recommend it highly enough and I SINCERELY hope that, one fine day, the Kercher Family, and those who support them, will be blessed enough to have the help of journalists/documentarians as talented as the ones behind the incredibly moving/ compelling/ memorable "Badlands, Texas".

SPOILER WARNING (don't peek under any tags until you watch the first 6 or so episodes of the series!)

The coverage in this documentary is particularly noteworthy in terms of young Meredith's case because it demonstrates that the US Constitution empowers citizens, journalists and production companies to explore whether or not ...
Hidden Content: show
an ACQUITTAL has met the ends of Justice.


I've often seen the handful of old men who STILL (more than 2 YEARS after the annulment!) gather EACH day on ISF to RE-celebrate Knox's acquittal, openly expressing their fantasy that the majority of the membership at PMF have given up posting because they no longer believe in the prosecution's case, and are slinking away in shame without having the integrity to "ADMIT THEY WERE WRONG".

However, IF the more reasonable/ intelligent/ empathetic posters at ISF and IA are TRULY interested in knowing EXACTLY what the freinds and PMF/TJMK supporters of Meredith and her family are REALLY feeling and thinking right now, all they have to do is watch the "Badlands" docu-series, and listen carefully to what the residents of Terlingua, Texas are saying about the loss of their dear friend and the trial of the man accused of murdering him.

Hidden Content: show
They sound EXACTLY like the PMF members who tell me they have stopped posting here, or even glancing at case-related news, because they are, literally, PHYSICALLY SICKENED by the acquittal of K & S. Indeed, their facial expressions look a lot like the pained one Justice Marasca revealed in an interview when contemplating whether his decision to acquit had been the right one, not in terms of legal technicalities, but in terms of a citizen wanting to see Justice done for Meredith.


(WARNING: there's no way for any red-blooded man to resist falling at least a little bit in love with gun-toting-but-nevertheless-kind-hearted Ronda! Watch at your peril!
Image
The rest of the townsfolk are incredible, too - some of these people look tougher than John Wayne & Clint Eastwood ever did - their heartaches, scars and eyepatches are REAL)

Are you hinting at something like this VICTIMS-centric (rather than Accused-centric) docu-series, Pete? (I, for one, hope that "ColScott" has the means & connections. He certainly has the inclination. The key would be getting the Kercher Family and Meredith's friends to participate ... )

__________________

PS Yo, Earthling! Good to see you're still working your way through things, too! I guess I need my eyes checked, but is there any chance you could post still shots of the particular images to which you're referring? (If you're talking about the 2 figures that are walking toward the camera, rather than the 2 figures who walk away from the camera, then I'd have to confess that, to my eyes, the man does not look like RS -- Thanks to Jamie, as well, for putting up some more stills already!).

While this kind of thing is interesting, I don't suppose there's much value to it in terms of the Italian system - evidently, courts there can find that you were:

a) 'indisputably' present during a murder
b) drenched in the victim's blood & forced to wash it off at the scene; &
c) subsequently lying to police, prosecutors, judges & jurors ever thereafter

YET STILL conclude that you're NOT guilty because they cannot be perfectly "certain" (to the point of 'tranquility') that YOU, rather than your co-accused (also lying left, right and center), were holding the murder weapon when it struck the fatal wound! sh-)) ('All Hail, the DEATH of INFERENCE on the Basis of LOGIC, REASON & COMMON SENSE!' n-(( )

If the Italian system intends to continue with this incredibly curious standard of absolute "tranquilizing certainty", which, if you believe Mach, they seem to have cooked up just for their very special American guest ;) , it won't be doing much to control crime given that murderers tend to do their deeds away from eyewitnesses and HD cameras!

(This uniquely Italian conception of the BARD standard would be deemed "too strict" in any common law jurisdiction you can name, including the US, where, as the SCOTUS made clear in Victor v. Nebraska (92-8894), 511 U.S. 1 (1994), absolute/ scientific/mathematical "certainty" is NOT required.)


Last edited by Jackie on Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:10 am, edited 10 times in total.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:17 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
...Sollecito around 5' 7".


Are you sure, E? Only 5'7"?!

He's a SHORT little runt, like 'acbytesla' (aka 'cleansingbyhitler')?!

But Solly was bragging in the media that he plays "rugby"?!

I guess he's in the girls league.
______________

ETA While we're on the subject of sports fantasies, anyone seen any proof that Billy Nutter, the obsessive, scientifically-illiterate "advocate" Knox's IA group sends over to ISF to slow-flood the Knox thread, is only "37" years old, and not only fit enough to play ice "hockey", but ready to drop the gloves and fistfight?

He's always trying to call Ms. Vixen a "liar" but, if, in reality, he's about as far from a '37 year old hockey player' as it gets, well ... time for Team Knox to switch to a better class of online "advocate" (buffoons don't win hearts and minds).


Last edited by Jackie on Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:31 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Offline Earthling


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Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:25 pm

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:13 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hey, Jackie, good to be back! Used to post mainly to .org but of course that is no longer possible... so I was glad to discover that you all are still here!

Yeah! pp-( d-)) :)
Drinking a toast to .net! drin-)

As for the stills from the video, do you mean the 23:25 time-frame? Sure, I can try to capture some stills from that.

I just feel like we can't tell faces in that low-res video, but the times match up pretty well, as well as the behavior. Why would someone go down the car-park with a flashlight, and come back within two minutes with some sort of heavy thing(s) in a plastic bag? Clearly they're a couple, as shown by their embrace. The woman is exhausted and has to rest for a second against a car before she ascends that long metal stairway.

Anyway, just my gut feeling. Like you say, the Italian system is obviously too "pristine" to consider such "fuzzy" evidence.

Americans would be all over it, though.

I do wish we'd seen Curatolo's reaction to that video. RIP Toto.

Thanks again for the welcome back, Jackie! Good to "see" everyone again!
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Offline Earthling


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:25 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

PS to Jackie: "Badlands, Texas" sounds incredible! I'll try to watch it. I don't get Netflix, but I have friends who do.
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Offline Jackie


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Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:38 am

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:45 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Earthling wrote:
Hey, Jackie, good to be back! Used to post mainly to .org but of course that is no longer possible... so I was glad to discover that you all are still here!

Yeah! pp-( d-)) :)
Drinking a toast to .net! drin-)

As for the stills from the video, do you mean the 23:25 time-frame? Sure, I can try to capture some stills from that.

I just feel like we can't tell faces in that low-res video, but the times match up pretty well, as well as the behavior. Why would someone go down the car-park with a flashlight, and come back within two minutes with some sort of heavy thing(s) in a plastic bag? Clearly they're a couple, as shown by their embrace. The woman is exhausted and has to rest for a second against a car before she ascends that long metal stairway.

Anyway, just my gut feeling. Like you say, the Italian system is obviously too "pristine" to consider such "fuzzy" evidence.

Americans would be all over it, though.

I do wish we'd seen Curatolo's reaction to that video. RIP Toto.

Thanks again for the welcome back, Jackie! Good to "see" everyone again!


Cheers, Earthling! drin-)

Yeah, I'm looking at your vid after the 23 second mark - I see 1 man, then 1 woman move AWAY from the cam (down the ramp) in succession (could be S then K, following behind???), and I also see another couple move TOWARD the cam (up the ramp) - and that man does not look like RS, IMHO)... but what do I know? Alas, even if it were K & S as clear as day, and they were dripping in blood, the Italian Supreme Court Justices would STILL let them skate on the grounds they couldn't be "CERTAIN" which of the 3 lying accused was holding the knife precisely when the fatal wound was made! n-((

In any event, I really do hope that you (and others interested in victims rights/ the functioning of juries) have time to take a look at "Badlands" - if you were my next door neighbor, I'd give you my NETFLIX password so you could watch it right now ;-)

Image


...BUT ya' gotta give it a chance! A lot of patience is required because it unfolds very SLOWLY (they're on TEXAS time, not NYC time!) ... it's beautifully shot (as you'd expect from National Geographic), but they take FOREVER to get to the crime, the trial and the jury's deliberations! (The makers of this gem give as much attention to the physical setting and the people of Terlingua as they do to the legal drama that envelopes them.)

Plus you might find the townsfolk less than intriguing at first but, after you've spent 6 or so of the 8 episodes with them, you can't help but be moved by them (the desert has made them SO tough, but, incredibly, their hearts are still tender).

I love it most because it stands for the proposition that US documentarians/ journalists really ARE free to explore jury verdicts from the POV of victims and their supporters (rather than from the POV of the accused), while raising serious questions about how evidence is evaluated by ordinary lay people and whether the system is giving them enough guidance to deal with slippery legal constructs that are enough to baffle even the brightest of law students (and, apparently, Italian Supreme Court Justices).

I really do hope that, one day, for the sake of the Kercher Family, I see a doc on Meredith's case that lets Americans know what the Italian Supreme Court ACTUALLY wrote about K & S (about as far from a 'forceful declaration of innocence' as it gets!), and how absurd the Court's "reasoning" appears to be (BARD = "certainty"?!).
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Offline malvern


Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:27 pm

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hi Jackie , Thanks for the recomendation for Badlands I intend to watch it. I know you have a certain respect for at least one poster on IIP but can he really believe Amanda had no involvement if he's as smart as you give him credit? TJMK has a recent post with the questioning of Amanda by Mignini. The girl who claimed to have memory problems can remember her detailed trip on the bathmat. I jumped on it to travel to my room .. at that point my feet were dry and I hopped off. Since my feet were dry I carried it back bla bla bull. I would think at the very least he would have to agree with the SC that Amanda was present and tried to cover that up with a series of ridiculous tales. I love Mignini when he called Amanda out on her poop in the toilet discovery . She admitted to viewing it from a distance from the ante room . He tells he that would be 2 metres away. She acts confused and doesn't understand metres. A long post of Mignini questioning on TJMK but thoroughly enjoyable to see Amanda's memory be at times laser sharp and at other times missing. What were you wearing to return to the cottage to shower, a jumper , pants what colour, what material ? Those details were lost.
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Offline hugo


Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:20 pm

Posts: 290

PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

malvern wrote:
Hi Jackie , Thanks for the recomendation for Badlands I intend to watch it. I know you have a certain respect for at least one poster on IIP but can he really believe Amanda had no involvement if he's as smart as you give him credit?


He's smart, or used to be when younger -- he's a formerly successful but now retired intellectual-property lawyer -- but, as Clint Eastwood said, 'A man's got to know his limitations,' and he knows squat about murder cases and can't recognise his own prejudices. He says he first took the view that 'She didn't commit the murder but she knows something,' which is the usual white American reaction: only black people commit crimes and nice white American college girls can't be criminals, but clearly Knox was in this thing somewhere. And he says he then realised, having got his information solely, by deliberate choice, from a website set up by the murderer's family, that Knox and Sollecito 'had no more to do with it than I did,' which of course is the racial-solidarity kick he was on all along. In judicial reality, which a lawyer ought to recognise, even the acquitting panel of the Supreme Court, despite tying themselves in knots to get Sollecito off (and incidentally Knox too, but she's not important in herself to certain Italian interests), admitted that Knox was certainly present during the murder, washed the victim's blood off her hands, faked the break-in, lied to police and falsely blamed Patrick Lumumba to divert suspicion from her associate Rudy Guede who could incriminate her if questioned.

The same poster lately came out with this zinger:-

erasmus44 wrote:
I still think that there is a non-trivial probability (5% or so) that the entire fiasco was due to the desire of Mignini to get his hands on that computer of Filomena (who worked for a local law firm).


That is the paranoid mutant offspring of the made-up Knox-PR conspiracy theory that Dr Mignini ordered Guede to carry out the law-office burglary to gain access to the files. Although someone may have ordered the burglary for that purpose (not necessarily using Guede, though he ended up handling those stolen items), it was probably a commercial business matter. I don't think the firm did criminal work, and it's simply mad to imagine Dr Mignini orchestrating that kind of thing, never mind ordering a murder just to obtain a laptop. It's possible that erasmus (whose real identity is well known) is suffering age-related brain degeneration, but I suspect he's just a standard-issue nationalist and racist whose privileged background allowed him certain career advantages.
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Offline KrissyG


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Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:53 pm

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:24 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I really enjoyed the book by Lisa Wilson and Nick Van der Leek, FOXY KNOXY FIGHTS BACK.

With their permission, here's a sneak preview excerpt (apologies, some of the formatting is lost):

-------
Quote:


Airports + Time Machines

“Everything in this world is magic, except to the magician.” — Dr. Robert Ford, Westworld

Remember the juror Rolling Stone derided for fiddling with his iPhone in court? Remember he was the only man out of the six Italian jurors? This man turned out to be one Mauro Chialli. Once the case was done, in the twinkle of an eye, Chialli emerged as a major source of Italian accented vindication for Knox.

He insisted to the media:*

“I saw the faces of these two kids, and they couldn’t bluff. They didn’t bluff. My point of view is that these kids weren’t guilty. They weren’t there.”

Notice the operative semantics:

I saw the faces of these two kids…

So much in the appeal had depended on how those faces appeared. Did they appear cool and cagey, or fragile and distressed? Bear in mind, an appeal is supposed to be based on pre-submitted points of law, not facial expressions or fashionable clothing for a courtroom.

After wilting in front of the cameras and court on October 3rd, and for several months prior, Knox seemed to recover her full strength in record time. Camera flashes penetrating the blacked out windows of the Mercedes that ferried her out of Capanne prison that same evening seem to show a pretty self-possessed 24 year old. This impression seems to be reinforced by images of Knox openly laughing the next morning as she strode through, inside and outside, an Italian shopping mall.

When Knox didn’t seem to be aware of long lenses scrutinising her every move, she seemed buoyant and light on her feet. But once huddles of reporters gathered around her, Knox seemed able to summon back a tearful countenance at will.

Ironically, in order to get back to Seattle from Italy’s Fiumicino Airport, Knox and her team flew via London first. At the same time the Kerchers, who’d just left London a day earlier, remained behind in Perugia to give a subdued press conference. They sat in a cold basement boardroom of the hotel, while Knox carried on life in Seattle, shopping for a Hershey bar and some toothpaste just a few days later.

Meredith’s brother, Lyle, told the media that they had to accept the verdict; after all, it was the work of experts to decide the judicial process, not lay people like him, or his family. I remember the Steenkamps expressing similar sentiments after the disappointing verdict in their murdered daughter’s case.

I have to say, I couldn’t disagree more. Many juries and jurors around the world are comprised of unsophisticated lay folk. So, it is laymen and women at the end of the day that often decide the fates of criminals in criminal cases. Criminal law, forensics and criminal psychology are far from rocket science. Sometimes cases are layered and complicated, but often it doesn’t take a lot of digging to begin to figure out the true DNA hidden within a crime scene, and to begin to intuit the operative psychology. A great deal is achieved in criminal cases by similarly paying undivided attention to a case.

All the “experts” Lyle mentions, have their attention spans spread like too little butter over vast loaves of bread. One person absorbing and assimilating a case over a few weeks or months is invaluable. It is undeniably painful for families to put themselves through this process, but what is worse is to come out of the legal slaughterhouse without resolution, or closure. Ask Fred Goldman, he knows.

The horrible reality of any death of a loved one, but especially when it is a violent death, is that there is never closure. There is no escape from it. The best one can do is deal with the questions and try to make peace where one can. But the reality is, even with a motive, even with all evidence accounted for, one cannot outrun the anguished cry of one’s own soul pleading for the resurrection of a stolen life:

Why?

What if…

That same morning Sophie Purton drove to work as she normally did. On her way to the school in London tears stole up on her, and Sophie pulled over. She turned up to work, but asked to be excused for the remainder of the day, to reflect and to grieve. In Perugia, Meredith’s brother Lyle told the huddle of media:

“It feels like we’re back to square one. [The verdict] raises more questions than answers…”

One of the questions, he said, was if it wasn’t Knox or Sollecito with Guede, who was it? The evidence showed Guede hadn’t acted alone, so who had been with him?

Hellmann/Zanetti would later take a stab at addressing this, saying…


Link to book on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/FOXY-KNOXY-FIGHT ... 0759VX172/
Shakedowntitle.com

-----


Last edited by KrissyG on Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hi, KrissyG, and welcome to the forum!
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:04 pm   Post subject: KNOX 'TRASHED' HARD DRIVES   

Candace Dempsey in her book writes Knox parents were upset she lost pictures of the Euro chocolate Festival 'proving she and Meredith were friends'. Yet somehow she managed to obtain the video shown in the Netflix documentary?
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Offline jape


Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:57 pm

Posts: 111

PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I can film and save short videos on my digital camera. Knox got her camera back after the case was over. Perhaps that's where Netflix got the film from? Had her lawyers wanted to have access to it I suspect they only had to ask.

I have not seen the documentary (only a few excerpts) but I remember seeing a still of Meredith taken at the Festival (or was it the concert?) by Knox. It was of Meredith turning and looking back in surprise towards the camera, a full on of her face, as if the camera was more or less being shoved up close to her. Perhaps the lawyers did look and thought, hold on, that's a bit sneaky and creepy.

I am unaware of any specific reason being given for Meredith making her apologies and leaving the concert. Anyone?
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 856

Location: New York

PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:55 pm   Post subject: Re: ANOTHER EGREGIOUS CASE OF A WHITE WOMAN'S FALSE ACCUSATIONS   

hugo wrote:
You were asking on TJMK about an internet claim that a judge who acquitted Knox then told French TV that she did it. Of course, Hellmann made the mildly astonishing remark to Italian media that 'they may well know something,' meaning Knox and Sollecito may have guilty knowledge, but this particular claim sounds like a wild misstatement of what Judge Marasca told the French interviewer. Marasca appears twice, in the last couple of minutes of the French documentary. The first time, he says that proof was not absent, but it was insufficient. (Unfortunately he relies on the old 'contradictory verdicts' argument, which is illegal because Hellmann was annulled. There were no contradictory verdicts, there was no 'objectively wavering process.' Marasca delivered a mafia verdict, acquitting a favoured defendant because he is the princeling of a mafia family.) The second time, he says that judicially, the proof was insufficient, but factually, nobody knows. He says that as a judge he is sure his verdict was correct, on account of the insufficient proof, but that as a citizen he just doesn't know what to think. This would be in line with what Dr Mignini calls 'the dubitative formula', Art. 530.2. Marasca does not give the defendants a clean bill of health.


Hugo - rather belatedly - thanks for this.

Marasca was a political appointee from Naples, so was Bruno, the last of the very few, since after that too-obvious slanting of a verdict the Council of Magistrates ruled that all Cassation judges had to follow the demanding professional career path (in which Mignini has excelled).

Its not sure either of them had handled a murder case before (do you know?), the Fifth Chambers handles minor crimes and domestic disputes. It showed in how they parsed the evidence (well wee bits of it) instead of seeing it all as a whole - the same fault the First Chambers directed at Hellman. When Bruno was doing his writing he was pretty sick at the time, hence the delay.

By the way, this case is still live, still an explosive sleeper maybe.

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tj ... _be_cause/
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 856

Location: New York

PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Jackie wrote:
Ergon wrote:
...Sollecito around 5' 7".


Are you sure, E? Only 5'7"?!

He's a SHORT little runt, like 'acbytesla' (aka 'cleansingbyhitler')?!

But Solly was bragging in the media that he plays "rugby"?!

I guess he's in the girls league.


Jackie, re RS and his relative height and his "rugby" take a look.



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Offline KrissyG


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Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:53 pm

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
Hi, KrissyG, and welcome to the forum!


Ergon, thank you.

Here is another extract (I hope to bring two more) from Nick Van Der Leek & Lisa Wilson's book:

Quote:
Hellmann’s Verdict in a Nutshell

“It isn’t up to this court to state what really happened, nor whether one or more people carried out the crime.” — From the 143-page Hellmann report, released on December 15th, 2011

It may seem inappropriate to criticise lawyers for not being good storytellers, but getting away with murder is premised entirely on plausible but deceitful storytelling. Thus, to be a good prosecutor, one needs to tell a good, engaging factual story, peppered with cogent insight and speculation [based on all available information].

While the ambit of the Hellmann/Zanetti appeal was far smaller than the original trial, the prosecution theoretically had all the British girls’ testimonies to invoke. So, whenever Knox stood up in court and claimed she and Meredith were good friends, the prosecution was free to counter this with actual testimony. That they didn’t feel this was a point worth arguing was a big mistake.

Sophie Purton could have been an excellent witness to call to the stand. Her ambit would be to testify to Knox’s state of mind, witnessed first-hand hours after Meredith’s body was discovered, as well as the contention about whether Knox was or wasn’t being portrayed as she was.

It’s easy to forget that when Sophie and the retinue of Meredith’s friends arrived at the police station in the early afternoon of November 2nd, they didn’t know Meredith had been murdered. They’d been summoned but they didn’t know why. They were worried about Meredith because they hadn’t heard from her, but they arrived at the police station not knowing what had happened, or if something had happened, to whom.

Gradually the information filtered through – that harm had come to someone at the villa. They still didn’t know it was Meredith, and they were in a sense afraid to find out. When Laura Mezzetti arrived, the British girls realised all the women except Meredith were present and accounted for. Knox was there, Filomena was there, and now, so was Laura.

Where was Meredith?

When Sophie was questioned for an hour, she asked the cops what had happened, but they wouldn’t tell her. They kept asking her about Meredith. When Sophie emerged in the hallway after questioning, it had filled up with even more people.

By now she was certain something had happened to Meredith. When she saw Knox, Sophie approached her, hugged her and said, “I’m so sorry.” Knox stiffened under her embrace, her arms hanging limp at her sides.

Sophie was surprised at how emotionless Knox was. Sollecito then stepped in, and took her hand. Suddenly it was as though Sophie was no longer there. Moments passed with both Sollecito and Knox paying no attention to Sophie.

Then, when Samantha Rodenhurst, Sophie and Knox were summoned by an officer to be fingerprinted, Sollecito got up and tagged along. It was then that Sophie turned to Knox and addressed the issue directly.

Do you know what happened?

Knox responded:

“I know everything. What do you do you want to know?”

Sophie admitted she didn’t know anything, but wanted to know what was going on. Knox gave her a look that prompted Sophie to say, “Tell me what you know, I can take it.”

Knox deadpanned:

“Her throat was cut. Then she was stuffed in a cupboard.”

Knox’s matter-of-fact tone unnerved Sophie. But the ominous disclosure prompted the girls to ask more questions. Knox explained that she hadn’t seen Meredith herself, but that Filomena and Sollecito had, and – gesticulating wildly – sketched a verbal portrait of Meredith’s foot teetering out of the closet.

As more people wanted to know what had happened, Knox couldn’t resist owning the narrative. She’d found Meredith, she started proudly telling certain people, holding court, enjoying the power of knowing more than everyone else.**

Unfortunately for Knox, many were watching and listening, desperate for news but also alert. Natalie Hayward remembered the events in court as follows…

Link to Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/FOXY-KNOXY-FIGHT ... 0759VX172/
shakedowntitle.com




Reproduced with permission
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Offline Jackie


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Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:38 am

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:33 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

malvern wrote:
Hi Jackie , Thanks for the recomendation for Badlands I intend to watch it. I know you have a certain respect for at least one poster on IIP but can he really believe Amanda had no involvement if he's as smart as you give him credit? TJMK has a recent post with the questioning of Amanda by Mignini. The girl who claimed to have memory problems can remember her detailed trip on the bathmat. I jumped on it to travel to my room .. at that point my feet were dry and I hopped off. Since my feet were dry I carried it back bla bla bull. I would think at the very least he would have to agree with the SC that Amanda was present and tried to cover that up with a series of ridiculous tales. I love Mignini when he called Amanda out on her poop in the toilet discovery . She admitted to viewing it from a distance from the ante room . He tells he that would be 2 metres away. She acts confused and doesn't understand metres. A long post of Mignini questioning on TJMK but thoroughly enjoyable to see Amanda's memory be at times laser sharp and at other times missing. What were you wearing to return to the cottage to shower, a jumper , pants what colour, what material ? Those details were lost.


Hey Malvern! I do, in fact, see no reason to doubt E44's claim that he has received a top-notch legal education and racked up many years of experience as a litigator. He's one of the reasons a few of my law school pals and I have periodically attempted to test the waters at IA. It's not been easy - GSM's 'useful idiots' tend to rule the roost at IA and, in addition to being subjected to a lot of vulgar and defamatory abuse, we are usually censored, suspended and eventually banned (no announcement of banning is made to the forum when this occurs, presumably to help perpetuate the myth that 'only PMF bans people').

It's difficult to get an intelligent exchange going when words are being deleted from your posts and your thoughtful replies are eventually blocked altogether.

However, things seem to be getting a little better lately, now that the 'kids' are free and both sides of this endless debate are down to about 5 or so active posters. Here's hoping we can get E44 to expand a little more on his reasoning in this case.

As for AK's apparent memory problems, I am reminded of what legal commentator Beth Karas once said about police questioning and guilty liars: when guilty people lie to police, they make up a story in a linear fashion - the details are fabricated in a particular order from start to finish (ok...I was having a beer and watching the game, then I ..., then I ..., then I...,). As a result, they need to retell the story in that SAME ORDER to get the details right. If asked to recount their story in reverse, or from somewhere in the middle, or to jump forward and back in time while retelling it, they really have to slow down and THINK very carefully (because they are having to imagine something that they didn't really experience) and are, therefore, prone to taking long pauses and making little mistakes ('first you said it wasn't raining but now you're saying you were holding an umbrella!'). This is why police get a suspect to go OVER, and OVER, and OVER their "story", interrupting them, starting and stopping, and backing them up or moving them forward at random, because police know that an honest person recounting something they actually experienced can stop and start from any point in the retelling and the details will not change or conflict with one another.


Last edited by Jackie on Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

hugo wrote:
malvern wrote:
Hi Jackie , Thanks for the recomendation for Badlands I intend to watch it. I know you have a certain respect for at least one poster on IIP but can he really believe Amanda had no involvement if he's as smart as you give him credit?


He's smart, or used to be when younger -- he's a formerly successful but now retired intellectual-property lawyer -- but, as Clint Eastwood said, 'A man's got to know his limitations,' and he knows squat about murder cases and can't recognise his own prejudices. He says he first took the view that 'She didn't commit the murder but she knows something,' which is the usual white American reaction: only black people commit crimes and nice white American college girls can't be criminals, but clearly Knox was in this thing somewhere. And he says he then realised, having got his information solely, by deliberate choice, from a website set up by the murderer's family, that Knox and Sollecito 'had no more to do with it than I did,' which of course is the racial-solidarity kick he was on all along. In judicial reality, which a lawyer ought to recognise, even the acquitting panel of the Supreme Court, despite tying themselves in knots to get Sollecito off (and incidentally Knox too, but she's not important in herself to certain Italian interests), admitted that Knox was certainly present during the murder, washed the victim's blood off her hands, faked the break-in, lied to police and falsely blamed Patrick Lumumba to divert suspicion from her associate Rudy Guede who could incriminate her if questioned.

The same poster lately came out with this zinger:-

erasmus44 wrote:
I still think that there is a non-trivial probability (5% or so) that the entire fiasco was due to the desire of Mignini to get his hands on that computer of Filomena (who worked for a local law firm).


That is the paranoid mutant offspring of the made-up Knox-PR conspiracy theory that Dr Mignini ordered Guede to carry out the law-office burglary to gain access to the files. Although someone may have ordered the burglary for that purpose (not necessarily using Guede, though he ended up handling those stolen items), it was probably a commercial business matter. I don't think the firm did criminal work, and it's simply mad to imagine Dr Mignini orchestrating that kind of thing, never mind ordering a murder just to obtain a laptop. It's possible that erasmus (whose real identity is well known) is suffering age-related brain degeneration, but I suspect he's just a standard-issue nationalist and racist whose privileged background allowed him certain career advantages.


Well, Hugo, FWIW, I don't think it's fair to suspect E44 is a racist - for example, he is really quite ardent in his defense of Atif Rafay.

However, I have to admit his speculation about Mignini's interest in Filomena's computer is, IMHO, not one of his finer moments. Perhaps he really has spent too much time in THEIR little echo chamber and ought to balance that out by spending a few coffee breaks in OUR little echo chamber ;-)

What baffles me most is that he seems to be suggesting that the police and prosecutors have a weak case because they did not solicit DNA experts to appear in the media on their behalf.

I understand why an under-educated buffoon, like Lyin' Billy Nutter, might expect to see the state trotting out expensive DNA experts to back their case on TV screens and in op-ed pieces, journals, etc. (i.e., anywhere BUT a court of law), but I simply cannot begin to imagine why anyone who has had the benefit of a decent legal education would expect to see such a spectacle.

_______________________
Fast Pete wrote:
Jackie wrote:
Ergon wrote:
...Sollecito around 5' 7".


Are you sure, E? Only 5'7"?!

He's a SHORT little runt, like 'acbytesla' (aka 'cleansingbyhitler')?!

But Solly was bragging in the media that he plays "rugby"?!

I guess he's in the girls league.


Jackie, re RS and his relative height and his "rugby" take a look.




Pete, that has to be THE scrawniest looking group of "rugby" players I've ever seen - that just HAS to be a no-contact, FLAG rugby league ... for frail boys ... and their 1 pale friend ;-)


Last edited by Jackie on Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Jackie


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Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:38 am

Posts: 898

PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:35 pm   Post subject: Nutter Fantasy?   

KrissyG wrote:
Ergon wrote:
Hi, KrissyG, and welcome to the forum!


Ergon, thank you.


If this is the famous Ms. Vixen (who, heroically, gives meaning, daily, to the lives of 5 lonely and rude old men on ISF), I've got to say I admire your ability to tolerate the intolerable.

HOW do you resist reporting them?! EVERY post they make addresses you, often BY NAME, rather than your argument! (In the old days of the JREF, that got people banned.)

Since you've spent so much time with Lyin' Billy "The Nutter" Williams, I'm hoping you can solve a mystery for us:

On IA & ISF, Billy claims to be a "37" year old and likes to imply he is an "ice hockey" player who is fit enough to drop the gloves and fight, for example:
Image

Now, for reference, this is what a 37 year old hockey player, who can fight, looks like (his name is Jarome Iginla & he's waaaaay too cool to ever be seen wearing "Crocs"):
Image

But we had an old man named Peter drop by here long ago, after spending an unhappy evening drinking "screech" in the Canadian woods with "Frank" and "Bill", to tell us, IIUC, that Billy is the elderly "dude" wearing "Crocs" (gasp) with socks (!), in this article's pic (don't zoom in!):

http://mindanaogoldstardaily.com/china- ... isolation/

That's about as far from a 30-something hockey player as it gets.

Now, Billy is very, very fond of calling YOU a "liar", but ... is he really a 30-something hockey player who is fit enough to not only play but FIGHT?????????????????????????


PS Regardless of where the truth lies on his actual age and fitness for hockey fights, the next time Bill calls you a "liar", show him this (he is in NO position to be shaming anyone as a liar):

Image
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Offline KrissyG


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Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:53 pm

Posts: 4

PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Jackie wrote:
malvern wrote:
Hi Jackie , Thanks for the recomendation for Badlands I intend to watch it. I know you have a certain respect for at least one poster on IIP but can he really believe Amanda had no involvement if he's as smart as you give him credit? TJMK has a recent post with the questioning of Amanda by Mignini. The girl who claimed to have memory problems can remember her detailed trip on the bathmat. I jumped on it to travel to my room .. at that point my feet were dry and I hopped off. Since my feet were dry I carried it back bla bla bull. I would think at the very least he would have to agree with the SC that Amanda was present and tried to cover that up with a series of ridiculous tales. I love Mignini when he called Amanda out on her poop in the toilet discovery . She admitted to viewing it from a distance from the ante room . He tells he that would be 2 metres away. She acts confused and doesn't understand metres. A long post of Mignini questioning on TJMK but thoroughly enjoyable to see Amanda's memory be at times laser sharp and at other times missing. What were you wearing to return to the cottage to shower, a jumper , pants what colour, what material ? Those details were lost.


Hey Malvern! I do, in fact, see no reason to doubt E44's claim that he has received a top-notch legal education and racked up many years of experience as a litigator. He's one of the reasons a few of my law school pals and I have periodically attempted to test the waters at IA. It's not been easy - GSM's 'useful idiots' tend to rule the roost at IA and, in addition to being subjected to a lot of vulgar and defamatory abuse, we are usually censored, suspended and eventually banned (no announcement of banning is made to the forum when this occurs, presumably to help perpetuate the myth that 'only PMF bans people').

It's difficult to get an intelligent exchange going when words are being deleted from your posts and your thoughtful replies are eventually blocked altogether.

However, things seem to be getting a little better lately, now that the 'kids' are free and both sides of this endless debate are down to about 5 or so active posters. Here's hoping we can get E44 to expand a little more on his reasoning in this case.

As for AK's apparent memory problems, I am reminded of what legal commentator Beth Karas once said about police questioning and guilty liars: when guilty people lie to police, they make up a story in a linear fashion - the details are fabricated in a particular order from start to finish (ok...I was having a beer and watching the game, then I ..., then I ..., then I...,). As a result, they need to retell the story in that SAME ORDER to get the details right. If asked to recount their story in reverse, or from somewhere in the middle, or to jump forward and back in time while retelling it, they really have to slow down and THINK very carefully (because they are having to imagine something that they didn't really experience) and are, therefore, prone to taking long pauses and making little mistakes ('first you said it wasn't raining but now you're saying you were holding an umbrella!'). This is why police get a suspect to go OVER, and OVER, and OVER their "story", interrupting them, starting and stopping, and backing them up or moving them forward at random, because police know that an honest person recounting something they actually experienced can stop and start from any point in the retelling and the details will not change or conflict with one another.


Insolvency examiners will often shoot off questions at random from the side lines, when trying to get a dodgy director to come clean about company and personal assets.

Mignini's careful noting of 'contradictions' in his 17 Dec 2007 interrogation with Knox effectively revealed her to be involved in the murder.
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Offline KrissyG


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Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:53 pm

Posts: 4

PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:07 pm   Post subject: Re: Nutter Fantasy?   

Jackie wrote:
KrissyG wrote:
Ergon wrote:
Hi, KrissyG, and welcome to the forum!


Ergon, thank you.


If this is the famous Ms. Vixen (who, heroically, gives meaning, daily, to the lives of 5 lonely and rude old men on ISF), I've got to say I admire your ability to tolerate the intolerable.

HOW do you resist reporting them?! EVERY post they make addresses you, often BY NAME, rather than your argument! (In the old days of the JREF, that got people banned.)

Since you've spent so much time with Lyin' Billy "The Nutter" Williams, I'm hoping you can solve a mystery for us:

On IA & ISF, Billy claims to be a "37" year old and likes to imply he is an "ice hockey" player who is fit enough to drop the gloves and fight, for example:
Image

Now, for reference, this is what a 37 year old hockey player, who can fight, looks like (his name is Jarome Iginla & he's waaaaay too cool to ever be seen wearing "Crocs"):
Image

But we had an old man named Peter drop by here long ago, after spending an unhappy evening drinking "screech" in the Canadian woods with "Frank" and "Bill", to tell us, IIUC, that Billy is the elderly "dude" wearing "Crocs" (gasp) with socks (!), in this article's pic (don't zoom in!):

http://mindanaogoldstardaily.com/china- ... isolation/

That's about as far from a 30-something hockey player as it gets.

Now, Billy is very, very fond of calling YOU a "liar", but ... is he really a 30-something hockey player who is fit enough to not only play but FIGHT?????????????????????????


PS Regardless of where the truth lies on his actual age and fitness for hockey fights, the next time Bill calls you a "liar", show him this (he is in NO position to be shaming anyone as a liar):

Image


Hey, I have a pair of crocs I use as slippers. (Do we get paid for product placement?)


Love your caricatures.

<roflmao>
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Offline elisa


Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:43 pm

Posts: 151

PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Why .org did shut down?
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Offline Ergon

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Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:20 pm

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

elisa wrote:
Why .org did shut down?


No idea, elisa hugz-)
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:03 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hi all,

has anybody read this article? (Sorry, I haven't had the time to read it yet.) Are some crime reporters becoming more critical of MSM's coverage of the Amanda Knox case?

‘6 Years Free!’: Evidence revisited six years after ‘Foxy Knoxy’ Amanda Knox released from jail following flatmate’s brutal murder
By Leigh Egan

CRIME ONLINE

There's also a podcast of an episode of the "Crime Stories with Nancy Grace" (duration: 50:26 min) embedded in that article if anyone wants to listen, although, personally, I don't expect to hear any new revelations from Anne Bremner and Linda Byron.

Nancy Grace revisits the controversial case in this episode with attorney Anne Bremner, a spokesman for the Knox family, and Seattle reporter Linda Byron, who closely covered Amanda's story since the beginning.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:16 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

And here you'll see some familiar names like John Douglas and Mark Olshaker. ;)

The True Story Behind Netflix's New Crime Series, 'Mindhunter'
How John Douglas changed the FBI.

By Grace Lisa Scott

Since leaving the FBI, Douglas has been consulted on a number of major criminal cases. He was a key member of the defense team that obtained the release of the West Memphis Three. His analysis of the Meredith Kercher murder also concluded that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito were innocent.


INVERSE
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Offline corpusvile


Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 5:38 pm

Posts: 352

PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:03 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

guermantes wrote:
And here you'll see some familiar names like John Douglas and Mark Olshaker. ;)

The True Story Behind Netflix's New Crime Series, 'Mindhunter'
How John Douglas changed the FBI.

By Grace Lisa Scott

Since leaving the FBI, Douglas has been consulted on a number of major criminal cases. He was a key member of the defense team that obtained the release of the West Memphis Three. His analysis of the Meredith Kercher murder also concluded that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito were innocent.


INVERSE


Let's not forget Olshaker comparing those who agreed with the trial & appellate convictions of Knox/Sollecito to actual Holocaust deniers. Latest former FBI mouthpiece is that Tabman guy, who basically seems to think innocence without coming right out and saying it and links from Knox's supporter site.
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Offline corpusvile


Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 5:38 pm

Posts: 352

PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:05 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Leigh Egan who wrote the crime online piece is quite good, I've read some of her articles before.
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 856

Location: New York

PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
elisa wrote:
Why .org did shut down?


No idea, elisa hugz-)


Frustration at Marasca-Bruno was one reason. Years of monster translations and painstaking analysis seemingly come to nothing. But their work has since proved invaluable and I think at the real end of the day they will get satisfaction.
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 856

Location: New York

PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

corpusvile wrote:
guermantes wrote:
And here you'll see some familiar names like John Douglas and Mark Olshaker. ;)

The True Story Behind Netflix's New Crime Series, 'Mindhunter'
How John Douglas changed the FBI.

By Grace Lisa Scott

Since leaving the FBI, Douglas has been consulted on a number of major criminal cases. He was a key member of the defense team that obtained the release of the West Memphis Three. His analysis of the Meredith Kercher murder also concluded that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito were innocent.


INVERSE


Let's not forget Olshaker comparing those who agreed with the trial & appellate convictions of Knox/Sollecito to actual Holocaust deniers. Latest former FBI mouthpiece is that Tabman guy, who basically seems to think innocence without coming right out and saying it and links from Knox's supporter site.


Douglas we still owe attention to. In shriller mode and greater length he made the same mistakes Saul Kassin did. Here is an aptly titled post by Douglas and Olshaker.

http://mindhuntersinc.com/some-rambling ... he-fringe/

They got that right. C-V, is there more you can point to on Olshaker separate from Douglas, and Tabman? Claims we can disassemble for their edification?

For those who havent seen it yet, this take on these puffed-up "mindhunters" really nailed them.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007 ... rous-minds
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 856

Location: New York

PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

guermantes wrote:
CRIME ONLINE

There's also a podcast of an episode of the "Crime Stories with Nancy Grace" (duration: 50:26 min) embedded in that article if anyone wants to listen, although, personally, I don't expect to hear any new revelations from Anne Bremner and Linda Byron.

Nancy Grace revisits the controversial case in this episode with attorney Anne Bremner, a spokesman for the Knox family, and Seattle reporter Linda Byron, who closely covered Amanda's story since the beginning.


If anyone DOES listen can we know where Nancy Grace stands now? Her "miscarriage of justice" after Hellman released the pair still keeps reverberating.

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tj ... th_alread/
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Offline LUFC1972


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:14 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Had a listen. Nancy appears to be convinced that Knox was involved in some capacity. Poorly researched as she mentions the book deal as if it was recent. The others mention the word 'exonorated' a lot. 50 minutes I wish I had back.
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Offline Rumpole


Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:46 pm

Posts: 241

Location: Old Bailey

PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:15 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Listening it. Half way thru. They get some facts wrong. Sounds almost like lying to me. Linda Byron claims Meredith had been to a Halloween party, and that it was after that evening she was found dead. And Anne Bremner keeps repeating that the police asked AK to imagine what had happened, and that's why she imagined having heard Meredith screaming. Could that be true? I've always wondered how they wrote down those statements at the police station. (I've probably asked this question before.)

If you want to post comments, the podcast is here too, along with other Crime Stories With Nancy Grace podcasts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPm4R4G31Vs

ETA: Have to agree with LUFC1972: poorly researched and not really worth listening.

Once again: amazing how many small errors and/or lies one can spot when one knows a lot about a case; I imagine all her other crime stories must contain an equal number of mistakes, errors and biased views as this one. And the show only had propagandists for AK, they should've invited some hardcore MK spokespersons as a counter balance, the psychotherapist was more on AK's side than impartial. They briefly mentioned AK's PTSD problems. Every time I hear them mentioned I would like to hear someone ask if it's common to suffer from ptsd after spending time in an Italian jail (which she claims to be the reason for it as far as I understand correctly) and that isn't it more likely she was involved in the murder which causes her to experience ptsd symptoms such as apparent flashbacks etc.
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Offline corpusvile


Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 5:38 pm

Posts: 352

PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:47 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Fast Pete wrote:
corpusvile wrote:
guermantes wrote:
And here you'll see some familiar names like John Douglas and Mark Olshaker. ;)

The True Story Behind Netflix's New Crime Series, 'Mindhunter'
How John Douglas changed the FBI.

By Grace Lisa Scott

Since leaving the FBI, Douglas has been consulted on a number of major criminal cases. He was a key member of the defense team that obtained the release of the West Memphis Three. His analysis of the Meredith Kercher murder also concluded that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito were innocent.


INVERSE


Let's not forget Olshaker comparing those who agreed with the trial & appellate convictions of Knox/Sollecito to actual Holocaust deniers. Latest former FBI mouthpiece is that Tabman guy, who basically seems to think innocence without coming right out and saying it and links from Knox's supporter site.


Douglas we still owe attention to. In shriller mode and greater length he made the same mistakes Saul Kassin did. Here is an aptly titled post by Douglas and Olshaker.

http://mindhuntersinc.com/some-rambling ... he-fringe/

They got that right. C-V, is there more you can point to on Olshaker separate from Douglas, and Tabman? Claims we can disassemble for their edification?

For those who havent seen it yet, this take on these puffed-up "mindhunters" really nailed them.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007 ... rous-minds


That paricular Olshaker article you linked was the one I meant when posting, I responded to it at the time:
"Mr Olshaker,
Just to get clarification, you find attacks on Meredith’s family “reprehensible”, yet seem to think that those who support her family & agree with the Italian courts’ verdicts are akin to actual holocaust deniers? And claim satisfaction of ruffling feathers? I must say, that sounds like textbook troll behaviour to me, at best and also intimates a decidedly weak argument, if you have to label those of a differing opinion than yours with offensive and completely baseless slurs.
You are entitled to your opinion. But to say there is overwhelming evidence of Ms Knox & Mr Sollecito’s innocence is not only patently false, but intellectually dishonest.
It also belies your claim that you always side with the victim as you’re clearly siding with a twice convicted murderer and thrice convicted slanderer.

I read some of you and Mr Douglas’s books as a kid. It disappoints me that for someone with such insights into psychopathy and narcissistic personality disorders, that both you and Mr Douglas have been bamboozled by one.

Thought you guys were better than that.

That having said, if you’re so sure of the “overwhelming evidence of their innocence” then neither you or Mr Douglas or Mr & Mrs Moore have anything to worry about, have you? As they’ll be exonerated and your further baseless and pretty offensive slurs against those who are pro justice for Meredith and her dignified stoic family- who are certainly not obliged to speak to you or Ms Knox and for which it is rather arrogant of you to suggest otherwise, with all due respect- will be unnecessary.

Also, considering you’ve done numerous books on disturbed personalities, may I ask what your thoughts on cults are and by that I mean, would you consider made up lexicons and fictitious words such as “guilter” and emotive terms like “hater” and comparing those who disagree with the preached gospel as being akin to holocaust deniers reflective of a cult like mentality? Which despite 10,000 pages of evidence still insists there’s none, kinda like certain cults or fringe religious groups claim the earth is 6,0000 years old, again despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary?

I’d be interested in your thoughts on this, should you ever get the time.

Anyway I’m sure Ms Knox & Mr Sollecito are much more heartened at overwhelming evidence of their innocence and I’m sure said evidence is sure to work wonders at their final appeal, so best of luck.
Oh and regarding your latest book, nobody has forgotten Rudy Guede. Unlike Ms Knox & Mr Sollecito, he chose not to become a media celebrity, hence his somewhat lower profile."

I don't have muh on Olshaker apart from his puff pieces on hos website, unfortunately.
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Offline jape


Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:57 pm

Posts: 111

PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:23 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Rumpole wrote - "Anne Bremner keeps repeating that the police asked AK to imagine what had happened, and that's why she imagined having heard Meredith screaming. Could that be true?"

They didn't ask her to" imagine" anything, but this could be a matter of interpretation. Check Anna Donnino's testimony. It does seem they that they thought she might be suffering from trauma induced amnesia. Otherwise there would have been no point about Anna talking to Knox about not being able to remember the incident in which she suffered a broken leg.

Was that an invitation to "imagine" a murder she had witnessed? To recover a false memory? Could anyone be that stupid? Or did Knox sense that here was an opportunity on which she could backtrack later?
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Offline hugo


Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:20 pm

Posts: 290

PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Rumpole wrote:
And Anne Bremner keeps repeating that the police asked AK to imagine what had happened, and that's why she imagined having heard Meredith screaming. Could that be true?


No, of course not. It's a rhetorical defence claim made in the light of obvious guilt.

Quote:
I've always wondered how they wrote down those statements at the police station. (I've probably asked this question before.)


Same way they always do. In ballpoint. When you are interviewed by police they have a form in front of them on which they write down what you say, part-translating it into their own bureaucratic language for clarity -- they do not of course take down every word and every um and er, and they sometimes ask you for clarification before they write down the substance of what you are saying -- and that becomes your statement. Large numbers of witnesses make such statements to police every year. The absurd fuss about Knox's statement is merely an index of Knox's obvious guilt.

And, to reiterate a point that nobody ever gets, Italian police, unlike British or American police, can never interview suspects. Only prosecutors can do that, by agreement with the suspect, as seen in Knox's interview with Dr Mignini lately posted at TJMK. Police can only conduct witness interviews, so the rules regarding suspect interviews don't apply.
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Offline guermantes

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Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:49 am

Posts: 4860

PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:40 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Earthling wrote:
Can someone please confirm the geography of this car-park? That when the people are walking toward the camera, they are walking down in the direction of the cottage? And when they are walking away from the camera in the car-park, they are walking toward the metal steps up to Via del Melo and Via Pinturrichio? Thank you.


Hi Earthling and welcome (back) to the forum. :)

Recently, I've been going through my old photo archives, searching for one particular photo, and found these three images of the car park [Parcheggio Sant'Antonio]. Perhaps you've already seen them before. IIRC, they were first posted by Tiziano.

Attachment:
garage ground floor entry.png

Specifically, I want to draw your attention to an entrance / access for pedestrians to the right of the car entrance - where does it lead to? To the ground floor, or is there also a third, underground level in the car park? Anybody know? Or is this where the "lite stairwell" is located, the one leading to the upper level of the car park as mentioned by Malvern in this post?

Somehow I faintly remember somebody saying that there was a passage/stairs leading from the car park to the city or one of its back streets (i.e. Via del Melo / Via Pinturicchio), or perhaps just to the upper level of the car park or the basketball court, I don't recall exactly which. Does anybody else remember that?
Attachment:
Car access all 3 levels.png

In this photo, you can see how really close the cottage gate is to the car park exit; literally, just a few steps away. It would have been very easy to flee the crime scene quickly and unnoticed.
Attachment:
Cottage gate, access 3 levels carpark.png


Just a couple of my own observations on these pictures, to add to others.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
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Offline Earthling


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Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:25 pm

Posts: 512

Location: USA

PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:22 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

guermantes wrote:
Earthling wrote:
Can someone please confirm the geography of this car-park? That when the people are walking toward the camera, they are walking down in the direction of the cottage? And when they are walking away from the camera in the car-park, they are walking toward the metal steps up to Via del Melo and Via Pinturrichio? Thank you.


Hi Earthling and welcome (back) to the forum. :)

Thanks for the "Welcome Back", guermantes! Great to be back!
hugz-)

Thanks too for the great pictures! They help a lot!

guermantes wrote:
Recently, I've been going through my old photo archives, searching for one particular photo, and found these three images of the car park [Parcheggio Sant'Antonio]. Perhaps you've already seen them before. IIRC, they were first posted by Tiziano.

Attachment:
garage ground floor entry.png

Specifically, I want to draw your attention to an entrance / access for pedestrians to the right of the car entrance - where does it lead to? To the ground floor, or is there also a third, underground level in the car park? Anybody know? Or is this where the "lite stairwell" is located, the one leading to the upper level of the car park as mentioned by Malvern in this post?

I don't honestly know. From the other picture, it seems this goes further underground.

guermantes wrote:
Somehow I faintly remember somebody saying that there was a passage/stairs leading from the car park to the city or one of its back streets (i.e. Via del Melo / Via Pinturicchio), or perhaps just to the upper level of the car park or the basketball court, I don't recall exactly which. Does anybody else remember that?

Yes, I think you're talking about the metal stairs that go up from the top level of the car-park to the Via del Melo/Via Pinturicchio area, and thence easily to Piazza Grimana. There are many pictures of this metal stairs online. These are the stairs which Nara Capezalli heard the murderer(s) running on, immediately after Meredith's final scream. She then (or simultaneously, not sure which) heard running footsteps on the gravel drive in front of the cottage. This is one of the main proofs that there were at least two people involved in the murder, imho.

guermantes wrote:
Attachment:
Car access all 3 levels.png

In this photo, you can see how really close the cottage gate is to the car park exit; literally, just a few steps away. It would have been very easy to flee the crime scene quickly and unnoticed.
Attachment:
Cottage gate, access 3 levels carpark.png

Yes indeed, thanks for that photo that shows how the cottage entrance is almost exactly across from the garage entrances. That is very interesting. Thanks, guermantes!

guermantes wrote:
Just a couple of my own observations on these pictures, to add to others.

Thanks!

P.S. I wish your photos showed up on this post. Kind readers, please refer back to guermantes' post!
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:50 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Earthling wrote:
Yes, I think you're talking about the metal stairs that go up from the top level of the car-park to the Via del Melo/Via Pinturicchio area, and thence easily to Piazza Grimana. There are many pictures of this metal stairs online.


Hi Earthling,

yes I know about the metal stairs. What I meant, though, was an "underground" passage from the parking garage to the basketball court area (perhaps.) I seem to remember somebody mentioning it but maybe I misunderstood. It's hard to remember who said what and on what occasion after so many years of following this case. ;)
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Offline malvern


Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:27 pm

Posts: 503

PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:49 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hi guermantes , I posted about a passage before but was talking about the two stairwell exits from the ground floor parking to the upper deck. The photos Jamie posted above has clear shots of them they are the two raised yellow concrete rectangles. One evening we walked through the garage to the upper deck via those concrete stairs. You can see in the photo the exit of those is very close to the metal stairs leading up to Via del Melo. It was a quiet evening, interesting to not only see the cottage from the upper deck but we could hear a dog barking and the tenants outside on the porch.
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Offline Ergon

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Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:20 pm

Posts: 7180

Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

guermantes wrote:
Earthling wrote:
Can someone please confirm the geography of this car-park? That when the people are walking toward the camera, they are walking down in the direction of the cottage? And when they are walking away from the camera in the car-park, they are walking toward the metal steps up to Via del Melo and Via Pinturrichio? Thank you.


Hi Earthling and welcome (back) to the forum. :)

Recently, I've been going through my old photo archives, searching for one particular photo, and found these three images of the car park [Parcheggio Sant'Antonio]. Perhaps you've already seen them before. IIRC, they were first posted by Tiziano.

Attachment:
garage ground floor entry.png

Specifically, I want to draw your attention to an entrance / access for pedestrians to the right of the car entrance - where does it lead to? To the ground floor, or is there also a third, underground level in the car park? Anybody know? Or is this where the "lite stairwell" is located, the one leading to the upper level of the car park as mentioned by Malvern in this post?

Somehow I faintly remember somebody saying that there was a passage/stairs leading from the car park to the city or one of its back streets (i.e. Via del Melo / Via Pinturicchio), or perhaps just to the upper level of the car park or the basketball court, I don't recall exactly which. Does anybody else remember that?
Attachment:
Car access all 3 levels.png

In this photo, you can see how really close the cottage gate is to the car park exit; literally, just a few steps away. It would have been very easy to flee the crime scene quickly and unnoticed.
Attachment:
Cottage gate, access 3 levels carpark.png


Just a couple of my own observations on these pictures, to add to others.

Hi, guermantes,
Yes, that's a pedestrian walkway to the 3rd level parking garage, and as malvern says, there's an internal stair case to the upper levels. The Wiki has coverage of CCTV cameras 7-11-15 on the upper, mid-level deck and ramp exits on the east side. The CCTV videos were reviewed by the postal police until the Micheli trial in 2008. Haven't been able to locate 'Knox' or 'Sollecito' on the videos but everyone's welcome to review them at http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/F ... CTV_videos (Proprietary program, so move cursor outside the frame to be able to see time stamp lower right).
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Offline guermantes

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Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:49 am

Posts: 4860

PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:48 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

malvern wrote:
Hi guermantes , I posted about a passage before but was talking about the two stairwell exits from the ground floor parking to the upper deck. The photos Jamie posted above has clear shots of them they are the two raised yellow concrete rectangles. One evening we walked through the garage to the upper deck via those concrete stairs. You can see in the photo the exit of those is very close to the metal stairs leading up to Via del Melo. It was a quiet evening, interesting to not only see the cottage from the upper deck but we could hear a dog barking and the tenants outside on the porch.


Thanks, Malvern and Ergon! Now I get it, so the two stairwell exits leading from the mid-level to the exterior are surrounded by yellow concrete blocks on the upper deck (as seen in the photos below), right?

Attachment:
21-concrete rectangle with a staircase leading to the ground floor level.jpg

Attachment:
23- two concrete rectangles on the upper deck of the parking garage.jpg

Images: courtesy of TJMK

One of the exits is indeed very close to the metal stairs. Very likely, AK & RS ran right across the street, through the ground floor level of the parking garage, then up one of the internal stair cases, and via the metal stairs down one of the back streets, and on to the basketball court and/or Corso Garibaldi. Well, just guessing of course, their possible escape route.


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Offline malvern


Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:27 pm

Posts: 503

PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:07 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

That's right those are the two stairwells leading down to the first floor parking. One stairwell is just a few feet from the metal stairs. It's a convenient and safer way to get down to the exit of the garage.
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