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XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -

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Offline hugo


Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:20 pm

Posts: 274

PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 7:27 pm   Post subject: Re: PEER REVIEW PSYCHOLOGY JOURNALS   

Ergon wrote:
Veering off again, I loved the way the FSA said findings of Madeleine McCann's DNA in the rental car were 'inconclusive'. How, so? That's why peer review has to be open and transparent.


You mean the FSS, the late lamented UK Forensic Science Service abolished by David Cameron's government. The responsible scientist did not make a finding of 'Madeleine McCann's DNA,' he made a finding of a number of Madeleine's DNA markers. The finding was inconclusive because the other four members of Madeleine's immediate family, all of whom were known to have used that vehicle, possessed between them the same markers, and because it was a mixed trace with at least three and possibly five contributors, and because it was likely that items bearing Madeleine's own DNA had been present in the vehicle. The Portuguese police -- headed by an officer subsequently convicted of perjury in another case -- misinterpreted the findings, and the Leicestershire police, by their own account, felt unable to correct the misinterpretation for diplomatic reasons.

Peer review is a procedure used by academic publishers. It has nothing to do with forensic investigation in criminal cases.
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Offline jamie


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:38 pm   Post subject: Re: PEER REVIEW PSYCHOLOGY JOURNALS   

hugo wrote:
Ergon wrote:
Veering off again, I loved the way the FSA said findings of Madeleine McCann's DNA in the rental car were 'inconclusive'. How, so? That's why peer review has to be open and transparent.


You mean the FSS, the late lamented UK Forensic Science Service abolished by David Cameron's government. The responsible scientist did not make a finding of 'Madeleine McCann's DNA,' he made a finding of a number of Madeleine's DNA markers. The finding was inconclusive because the other four members of Madeleine's immediate family, all of whom were known to have used that vehicle, possessed between them the same markers, and because it was a mixed trace with at least three and possibly five contributors, and because it was likely that items bearing Madeleine's own DNA had been present in the vehicle. The Portuguese police -- headed by an officer subsequently convicted of perjury in another case -- misinterpreted the findings, and the Leicestershire police, by their own account, felt unable to correct the misinterpretation for diplomatic reasons.

Peer review is a procedure used by academic publishers. It has nothing to do with forensic investigation in criminal cases.


Madeleine McCann was an IVF baby. How is it possible to 'share DNA' with any of the other McCanns?
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Has anybody heard any news about today's court hearing of the Sollecito/Gumbel defamation trial?

Ergon wrote:
[...]The first of the defamation trials against Mignini, that is Sollecito/Gumbel, now moved to March 03, 2017 in Florence under Judge de Cecco.

[...]The evidence has been admitted and so on March 3, 2017 there is the exam of the first two witnesses. Giuliano Mignini will be the first witness.


viewtopic.php?style=6&p=130723#p130723
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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 12:23 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Nothing collected into GoogleNews yet.

Just:

Raffaele has something to say about the compensation decision.
AgenziaRadicale, 01 March 2017: Gianni Carbotti and Camillo Maffia, “Raffaele speaks: Justice is not a reality show”

And:
His aunt Sara Achille also has something to say (amongst other things, that he’s living in a drama (that in the context of his Facebook comments)). Raffaele is too naive.
Panorama, Carmelo Abbate, “Pay him”
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:07 am   Post subject: SOLLECITO GUMBEL VILIPENDIO.   

guermantes wrote:
Has anybody heard any news about today's court hearing of the Sollecito/Gumbel defamation trial?

Ergon wrote:
[...]The first of the defamation trials against Mignini, that is Sollecito/Gumbel, now moved to March 03, 2017 in Florence under Judge de Cecco.

[...]The evidence has been admitted and so on March 3, 2017 there is the exam of the first two witnesses. Giuliano Mignini will be the first witness.


http://perugiamurderfile.net/viewtopic. ... 23#p130723

Hi, guermantes, I can only confirm the hearing was held today. (March 03). Beyond that, I'll have to wait till I get a full understanding of the proceedings.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:11 am   Post subject: Re: PEER REVIEW PSYCHOLOGY JOURNALS   

jamie wrote:
hugo wrote:
Ergon wrote:
Veering off again, I loved the way the FSA said findings of Madeleine McCann's DNA in the rental car were 'inconclusive'. How, so? That's why peer review has to be open and transparent.


You mean the FSS, the late lamented UK Forensic Science Service abolished by David Cameron's government. The responsible scientist did not make a finding of 'Madeleine McCann's DNA,' he made a finding of a number of Madeleine's DNA markers. The finding was inconclusive because the other four members of Madeleine's immediate family, all of whom were known to have used that vehicle, possessed between them the same markers, and because it was a mixed trace with at least three and possibly five contributors, and because it was likely that items bearing Madeleine's own DNA had been present in the vehicle. The Portuguese police -- headed by an officer subsequently convicted of perjury in another case -- misinterpreted the findings, and the Leicestershire police, by their own account, felt unable to correct the misinterpretation for diplomatic reasons.

Peer review is a procedure used by academic publishers. It has nothing to do with forensic investigation in criminal cases.


Madeleine McCann was an IVF baby. How is it possible to 'share DNA' with any of the other McCanns?

Hi, jamie,
All three of the McCann children were born through IVF, after Kate McCann had a five year struggle to get pregnant. However, the father confirmed that rumours of a 'sperm donor' were untrue, and that he was the natural father of the children. Therefore, they would have shared DNA, and this was confirmed through genetic testing. However, the sample in the car was a 15 out of 19 match with Madeleine's DNA.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 7:14 am   Post subject: Re: PEER REVIEW PSYCHOLOGY JOURNALS   

hugo wrote:
Ergon wrote:
Veering off again, I loved the way the FSA said findings of Madeleine McCann's DNA in the rental car were 'inconclusive'. How, so? That's why peer review has to be open and transparent.


You mean the FSS, the late lamented UK Forensic Science Service abolished by David Cameron's government. The responsible scientist did not make a finding of 'Madeleine McCann's DNA,' he made a finding of a number of Madeleine's DNA markers. The finding was inconclusive because the other four members of Madeleine's immediate family, all of whom were known to have used that vehicle, possessed between them the same markers, and because it was a mixed trace with at least three and possibly five contributors, and because it was likely that items bearing Madeleine's own DNA had been present in the vehicle. The Portuguese police -- headed by an officer subsequently convicted of perjury in another case -- misinterpreted the findings, and the Leicestershire police, by their own account, felt unable to correct the misinterpretation for diplomatic reasons.

Peer review is a procedure used by academic publishers. It has nothing to do with forensic investigation in criminal cases.

Hi, hugo, corrected to FSS. Thanks.

- The 'responsible scientist' who confirmed Madeleine's DNA (erratum, see below) was Dr. Rosa Maria Espinheira, director of Portugal's DNA testing laboratory. From Madeleine's DNA
Quote:
- Regarding your request no. 5, determine if the 'profile' obtained by the British laboratory may pertain to a child of the McCann couple.

- We carried out a profile comparison obtained from the autosomal STRs of Kate McCann and Gerald McCann and of the profile sent us.

- The probability of the McCann couple being the biological parents of the female individual in that test is 99,9828 %.

Lisbon, 20th August, 2007

The Director of the Genetic & Biological Forensic Service

Dr. Rosa Maria Espinheira

- Then, Dr. John Lowe of the FSS, wrote:
Quote:
A complex LCN DNA result which appeared to have originated from at least three people was obtained from cellular material recovered from the luggage compartment section 286C 2007 CRL10 (2) area 2. Within the DNA profile of Madeline McCann there are 20 DNA components represented by 19 peaks on a chart. At one of the areas of DNA we routinely examine Madeleine has inherited the same DNA component from both parents; this appears therefore as 1 peak rather than 2, hence 19 rather than 20. Of these 19 components 15 are present within the result from this item; there are 37 components in total. There are 37 components because there are at least 3 contributors; but there could be up to five contributors. In my opinion therefore this result is too complex for meaningful interpretation/inclusion.

Why - ...

Well lets look at the question that is being asked

"Is there DNA from Madeline on the swab "

It would be very simple to say "yes" simply because of the number of components within the result that are also in her reference sample.

What we need to consider, as scientists, is whether the match is genuine and legitimate; because Madeline has deposited DNA as a result of being in the car or whether Madeline merely appears to match the result by chance. The individual components in Madeline's profile are not unique to her, it is the specific combination of 19 components that makes her profile unique above all others. Elements of Madeline's profile are also present within the the profiles of many of the scientists here in Birmingham, myself included. it's important to stress that 50% of Madeline's profile will be shared with each parent. It is not possible in a mixture of more than two people, to determine or evaluate which specific DNA components pair with each other. Namely, we cannot separate the components out into 3 individual DNA profiles.

Therefore, we cannot answer the question: is the match genuine or is it a chance match.

The same applies to any result that is quoted as being too complex for meaningful inclusion/interpretation


- Oddly, similar arguments were made against Raffaele Sollecito's 15 alleles out of 19 on the bra clasp.

- Some say the FSS was deliberately vague for political reasons.

- The 'Portuguese officer convicted of perjury in another case' is Goncalo Amaral who recently won his case against the McCanns in Portugal's Supreme Court for his book "Maddie-The Truth of the Lie". The case was about Leonor Cipriano, who was convicted with her brother for murdering her daughter Joanna, since she'd witnessed them having an incestuous affair. She accused the police of beating her and that she'd been interrogated for 48 hours, ahem; they said she'd tried to kill herself by throwing herself down some stairs, hence the bruises. The police were acquitted, and Amaral, who wasn't even present, received a suspended sentence of 18 months (like Mignini :) for falsifying the reports of the incident.

- Here's more about Leonor Cipriano (Warning: upsetting details).

- Your point about peer review is correct. I conflated the discussion about peer review in the APA journal with the forensic investigation of the McCann case. However, since many other DNA specialists like John Butler have used formulas to determine the probability ratio of DNA coming from a victim even from a mixed DNA sample, Dr. Lowe should retreat into obfuscation without giving his reasoning? It literally read like what Peter Gill would write, ahem.

ETA erratum: Dr. Rosa Maria Espinheira confirmed the DNA came from a female child of the McCanns. However, since DNA is not transmitted from parents in equal blocks, siblings DO have dissimilar DNA profiles (unless they are identical twins). Since all three children's samples were on file, it would have been easy for Dr. Lowe to find a perfect match with the female sibling. He did not, and that's why the police reported it at the time as a match for Madeleine McCann. Nevertheless, in line with my original point, scientists should explain their reasoning and provide the data, not make generalized statements.
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Offline Sallyoo


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Here is a brief report on the 'Honor Bound' hearing in Florence, from Corriere dell'Umbria (who don't do much accessible content online).

Case deferred until April (I think this means April 2017). Judge hopes the parties will come to an 'out of court' settlement by then. The wording of the complaint has been changed to include the passages from the book as published in English, rather than just the passages translated into Italian so far. The Judge is thinking about (ed.note it's not clear how far he's gone with this thinking) getting an expert to translate the whole book into Italian. Mignini and Brizioli shouted at each other.

Attachment:
20170304_134755b.jpg


(Edited many times to get the attachment to fit - sorry it's now a bit small...)


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Offline hugo


Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:20 pm

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 7:05 pm   Post subject: Re: PEER REVIEW PSYCHOLOGY JOURNALS   

jamie wrote:
Madeleine McCann was an IVF baby. How is it possible to 'share DNA' with any of the other McCanns?


Firstly, you are making an unsourced claim. Secondly, you don't know anything about IVF and you clearly don't know anyone who has gone through the procedure. IVF does not commonly involve anonymous donors.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 3:11 am   Post subject: FIREWORKS IN FLORENCE   

From Andrea Vogt Tweets:
Quote:
Lively court hearing in Florence Fri as lawyers for Sollecito & "Honor Bound" co-author Gumbel try to deflect defamation trial (April).

Sounds interesting.


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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 11:29 pm   Post subject: Re: PEER REVIEW PSYCHOLOGY JOURNALS   

hugo wrote:
jamie wrote:
Madeleine McCann was an IVF baby. How is it possible to 'share DNA' with any of the other McCanns?


Firstly, you are making an unsourced claim. Secondly, you don't know anything about IVF and you clearly don't know anyone who has gone through the procedure. IVF does not commonly involve anonymous donors.

Note
Just a Note.
~ Er, civility?. It's public knowledge Kate McCann had IVF treatments to conceive her children and this was reported widely, so no source required here. I was uncertain whether jamie was thinking of this article in Nature
Quote:
World’s first baby born with new “3 parent” technique
A five-month-old boy is the first baby to be born using a new technique that incorporates DNA from three people, New Scientist can reveal.

but corrected his misunderstanding already.
~
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Offline jamie


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:16 am   Post subject: Re: PEER REVIEW PSYCHOLOGY JOURNALS   

Ergon wrote:
hugo wrote:
jamie wrote:
Madeleine McCann was an IVF baby. How is it possible to 'share DNA' with any of the other McCanns?


Firstly, you are making an unsourced claim. Secondly, you don't know anything about IVF and you clearly don't know anyone who has gone through the procedure. IVF does not commonly involve anonymous donors.

Note
Just a Note.
~ Er, civility?. It's public knowledge Kate McCann had IVF treatments to conceive her children and this was reported widely, so no source required here. I was uncertain whether jamie was thinking of this article in Nature
Quote:
World’s first baby born with new “3 parent” technique
A five-month-old boy is the first baby to be born using a new technique that incorporates DNA from three people, New Scientist can reveal.

but corrected his misunderstanding already.
~


I had in mind someone I knew who had his two children by IVF, and it was by donor, as he was infertile. So, it is not self-evident that Maddie had the same DNA as both her parents.
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Offline elisa


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:44 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

The most couples try first an IVF with own eggs&sperma. Have no statistics, but IVF with foreign donors is mostly the last solution. As I read the McCains did have IVF with own fertiliz. sources, so they declared a. ouple of times. Though I believe in Amaral's conclusions, because he describes other facts towards guilt of. overing up an accident. McCains acting seems to me so suspicious, I even believe there was a sex. assault by friends of the McCains and therefore they had to let the body of M disappear. It is a sad and tragic story but the most unbelievable is the abduction. Just from reading the facts and McCains explanations and acting.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 3:01 am   Post subject: ORIGINAL PHOTO OF KNOX THROAT SCRATCH   

Original picture of Knox's scratch posted in the Photo Album (large picture).

There are some pictures floating around Twitter purporting to show a hand print and others still claiming a hickey, lol, but they've been enhanced so I located the original.

This relates to Laura Mezetti's deposition http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/d ... i-1200.pdf but the photo is not attached to the deposition. Found on a Lalli disc not yet in the Wiki. One the many ‘to-do-on the Wiki’ list of things, when we can get around to it.

Date taken: 2007-11-06 1:30 PM according to the EXIF information.


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Offline jamie


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Here's the pic on the police files.


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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

jamie wrote:
Here's the pic on the police files.


Thanks, jamie. Your picture is from a PDF Photo book by the Scientific Police therefore is low res and doesn't have the same color range. The original picture (the only one of her scratch) I posted was taken by a Nikon D50, hence the very accurate detail.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:59 am   Post subject: ECHR KNOX V. ITALIE   

Always interesting to observe the psychology of some Amanda Knox followers. Anonymous commenter "Numbers" who has made hundreds of posts on Injustice In Perugia and ISF re Knox's likely triumph at ECtHR and the appeal had been accepted has this to say:
Quote:
Some guilters post misleading information that the case has not been reviewed at all; obviously, a Communicated Case has survived an initial ECHR review.

Er, what I said was communicated directly from the court.
Quote:
No ruling as to admissibility has been made by the court.

So, instead of their haphazard reading of what "admissibility" means, perhaps, they could also ask the court?
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:44 am   Post subject: THE PSYCHOLOGY OF A TROLL   

A recent Washington Post article How researchers tried to understand one of Twitter’s oldest trolling groups caught my eye hbc)
Abby Olheiser
March 2
Quote:
Three-year-old Madeline McCann disappeared from a resort apartment in Portugal in 2007 while on a family vacation. Her British parents were dining nearby. The McCann disappearance, which has never been resolved, became a major British tabloid story. The daily media frenzy has since faded, but a decade later, a tight-knit group of Twitter trolls who are convinced that they have proven the McCann parents’ guilt in their daughter’s disappearance still discuss the case online every single day.

What you’ll see: a steady stream of chatter from a tight-knit community with a common goal. In a new paper on the #McCann group, Online trolling: The case of Madeleine McCann (Dr.) Synnott and his co-authors tried to shed some light on how this devoted, online trolling community works.

The study was published by Elsevier-Science Direct
Computers in Human Behavior
Volume 71, June 2017, Pages 70–78
Online trolling: The case of Madeleine McCann
John Synnott, Andria Coulias , Maria Ioannou

Highlights:

• Case study analysis of Anti-McCann internet Trolling Group.
• The role of language, group identity and in group cohesion is examined.
• Language is central to Anti-McCann group in the construction of identity.
• Several strategies were employed by Anti-McCanns to provoke outsiders.
• Support for previous research linking trolling to western media culture and ASPD.

Abstract:

Despite the sustained media attention surrounding internet trolling, academic studies investigating its occurrence are rare. This study aimed to provide a case study analysis of the behaviours and strategies of a group of alleged Twitter trolls referred to as the anti-McCanns due to their continual abuse of Kate and Gerry McCann as well as those who support them and thus identify as pro-McCann. The way in which language was used to construct the anti-McCanns group identity, enhance in-group cohesion and facilitate out-group disassociation from the pro-Mccann group was additionally explored, given that previous research has implicated group processes in the propagation of aggressive online conduct. A multi-method approach involving a combination of ethnographic observations and the collection of online commentary was employed. The data was then analysed using quantitative content analysis and discourse analysis, which indicated that language was utilised in a variety of ways by the anti-McCanns to construct a salient group identity and negatively stereotype and disassociate from the pro-McCann group. Findings additionally revealed that several strategies were employed by the anti-McCann trolls to provoke and derogate members of the pro-McCann group, supporting previous findings which have linked trolling to both western media culture and the characteristics of anti-social personality disorder. The implications of these findings both theoretical and practical are discussed, alongside recommendations for future research.

Keywords:
Online trolling; Online abuse; Missing persons; Social media; Cyber psychology

My response to the WaPo article was published:
Quote:
This study is a violation of the British (BPS) and American (APA) psychologist association's code of ethics.
Psychology Research Ethics
Saul McLeod published 2007, updated 2015
- The purpose of these codes of conduct is to protect research participants, the reputation of psychology and psychologists themselves."
- Moral issues rarely yield a simple, unambiguous, right or wrong answer. It is therefore often a matter of judgement whether the research is justified or not. For example, it might be that a study causes psychological or physical discomfort to participants, maybe they suffer pain or perhaps even come to serious harm.
- Informed Consent
Whenever possible investigators should obtain the consent of participants.
- Debrief
After the research is over the participant should be able to discuss the procedure and the findings with the psychologist.
- Protection of Participants
Researchers must ensure that those taking part in research will not be caused distress. They must be protected from physical and mental harm. This means you must not embarrass, frighten, offend or harm participants.
- Deception
This is where participants are misled or wrongly informed about the aims of the research. Types of deception include (i) deliberate misleading, e.g. using confederates, staged manipulations in field settings, deceptive instructions; (ii) deception by omission, e.g., failure to disclose full information about the study, or creating ambiguity.

Note:
The post grad researcher set up a Twitter account, did not reveal their identity or purpose of the study, reveal their findings to those who responded, (and) deleted their account afterwards.

The title "Online trolling: The case of Madeleine McCann" is unprofessional and inflammatory.

"Case study analysis of Anti-McCann internet Trolling Group" characterizes a whole group of people as socially maladjusted and opens them to ridicule.

Disclosure: I'm an editor at www.themurderofmeredithkercher.com

--------

Interesting how the group searching for justice for Madeleine McCann had a similar arc as ours: dedicated volunteers translating legal documents for the English-speaking world, attacks from the media, a professional PR campaign arrayed against, biased (background research shows Synnott's group like Gill, et al, had pre determined their conclusions and did the 'research' to confirm) experts, and of course, we are the 'Amanda Knox Haters Society' and the 'Anti-McCann internet Trolling Group'.

The media of course, loves this. They can label whole groups of people now because the psychologists said so. Pity that Brenda Leyland committed suicide because the media wrongly labeled her a troll based on similar internet sleuthing.

Dr. Synnott plans on studying the 'pro-McCann group' now, and if the difference in language doesn't telegraph his bias, well, ...

Follows, a bandwagon: Miscarriages of Justice in the Age of Social Media: The Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito Innocence Campaign
The British Journal of Criminology
Lieve Gies
Published: 29 February 2016
Abstract:

The role of the media in exposing miscarriages of justice has not been extensively researched and even less is known about the contribution of the Internet and social media. Drawing on in-depth interviews with innocence campaigners, this article examines the social media campaign to overturn the conviction of Amanda Knox and her co-accused Raffaele Sollecito for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Perugia in 2007. It explores the campaigners’ use of different media platforms. It also examines their motivations in joining and supporting the campaign and discusses the campaign’s contributions and social dynamics. Finally, it elucidates the factors that shaped supporters’ belief in the innocence of Knox and Sollecito.

Keywords: wrongful conviction, Internet, media, pressure groups, qualitative research method

-----

Ahem :)
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Offline Rumpole


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:29 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hi Ergon,

your mentioning of Lieve Gies reminded me of this book we (or just I?) talked about last year:

Transmedia Crime Stories. The Trial of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito in the Globalised Media Sphere

It was published 3 months ago, and the intro (Foreword: The tragicomedy of Perugia: Power and prejudice, visibility and invisibility in the making of
a transnational, postmodern media story
) by Yvonne Jewkes - once again putting Knox next to the child killer Myra Hindley - can be downloaded free of charge here (24 pages), attached also below:

Transmedia Crime Stories -Introduction.pdf


Yvonne Jewkes wrote:
My aim in this Foreword is both to pick up on some of the key themes

introduced by other contributors to the volume and to add my own

thoughts and reflections on the reasons for the case’s enduring fascination.

In relation to the first objective, I found the content of the chapters that

follow as grimly riveting as the events they describe. Examining all aspects

of the story and its key protagonists, Transmedia Crime Stories: the Trial

of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito in the Globalised Media Sphere provides

absorbing new insight into the case and its aftermath. Chapters discuss

the arrests, trials, and acquittals; the tactics used by British, American,

and Italian journalists to construct Knox, Sollecito, and Guede in ways

that suited their (and the prosecution’s) narratives about the crime and

about the nations represented by the lead actors; the pivotal role of social

media in many aspects of the case and its reporting; the online communities

that continue to noisily protest Knox’s and Sollecito’s innocence or

guilt; the flawed police investigations; the controversial court trial; and the

slippery, selective, and ultimately double-edged conferment of celebrity

status that has elevated Amanda Knox to a level of fame and notoriety that

has seen her compared to, among others, Diana, Princess of Wales, Lady

Macbeth, and child murderer Myra Hindley
.


---------------------
https://link.springer.com/book/10.1057% ... 37-59004-6

----------------
I've finally been reading Stevie Simkin's Femme Fatale book about Knox and the other female murderers whose media etc. coverage he compares (mainly Ruth Snyder and Frances Howard; Madeleine Smith and the Basic Instinct character are also discussed). Fascinating book, one also recognizes one's own behaviour in sometimes viewing Knox the female as the worst and most devious one of the three accused, next I want to properly delve into all these plays and novels (The Woman in White!, need to reread it, I loved it when teenager) he mentions as quite a few of them were unknown to me - I've heard of them but have never seen them or read the scripts (Machinal, Duchess of Malfi etc).


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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:35 am   Post subject: DECONSTRUCTING MEDIA NARRATIVES ON CRIME   

Hi, Rumpole, thanks again for your post. Another from your link:
Quote:
Introduction: Transmedia Crime Stories
Lieve Gies, Maria Bortoluzzi
Abstract
That crime forms the staple diet of media reporting has long been acknowledged. Yet, not every crime sells and even within the same category of offending there are huge variations as to what makes a particular case newsworthy. Some murder stories barely cause a ripple, while others simply will run and run, generating headlines for years to come as the investigation turns into arrest, trial, appeal and, in some instances, retrial and exoneration. What is more, rather than just generating interest in the local or national press, some stories will command worldwide media interest. A few do not even require the spectacle of a trial to keep the media interest alive: the case of Madeleine McCann, the British child who disappeared on holiday in Portugal in 2007, has been making the news globally on and off for nearly a decade, despite the fact that her fate is still unknown and not a single suspect has been put on trial. The Internet and social media are capable of amplifying the geographical reach of such stories, increasing pressure on the police and other authorities to investigate or solve a case, or sometimes reopen it. In December 2015, it was a much-talked-about documentary by Netflix, the US-based on-demand channel streaming over the Internet, that provoked international outcry over the murder conviction of Steven Avery in Wisconsin. Online petitions generating more than 380,000 signatures against his conviction were indicative of a global response to what would have remained a local case with limited topicality without the online exposure.

My own curiosity's piqued by what I call "false media narrative syndrome". Used to see the same tactics when whole groups of brown skinned people were demonized to fit pro-war propaganda, now I see it used to fit people's psychological biases. The "burn the witch" syndrome we are all supposedly affected by, the "investigation and prosecutorial misconduct" which is easy to argue since, Netflix's Steven Avery, West Memphis Three with the celebrity advocacy effect, Adnan Syed since a popular podcast, then of course the weirder documentaries like "Capturing the Friedmans" and "Roman Polanski-Wanted and Desired" which says more about the film makers than their subjects. Sometimes, a murderer is just a murderer, and a pedophile, just a pedophile.

Regardless of what the academics have to say.
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Offline Fast Pete


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:05 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

A tip came in from an Italian reader, they sent just the link.

http://m.dagospia.com/ma-che-simpatico- ... one-139676

Have we looked at this at all? Can someone explain what it is all about?
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Offline Sallyoo


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Yeah, been talked about. (Search on Lucarelli; Guermantes usually is the most lucid poster on Sollecito news, and I think he/she covered it.) Late Jan/Early Feb 2017.

Briefly, Sollecito was being less than discreet (aka effing stupid) in a Facebook group perceived as a tad disrepectful towards the fairer sex, and Lucarelli outed his posts. It just about hit the English language 'press', as I recall. Some of his comments could be read as references to his having murdered Meredith (or someone else) and having some expertise in covering up murders. Maybe even eating the meat of Guede! Of course, Raf dismissed all of this as a bit of fun (grabbing pussy?) which all boys together get up to, donchaknow? (I'm now realising that I'm surprised Sollecito hasn't yet had an audience with The Donald!)
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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:30 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Re Gies & co:

I think a general pattern is beginning to appear of, academics that are not legally-trained and do not understand the ethics of court reporting (Lieve Gies and Maria Bortoluzzi are recent examples) showing a “confusion of thought”(1), and a belief and trust that what they read about a legal case is true and correct, and a balanced representation of reality rather than an (adversarial-like, even propagandising) distortion of it.

The authors of that Victimology book(2) likewise take trust in the veracity and unbiased view of the newspaper reports as their starting position.

These writers can hardly do otherwise, not knowing other languages, other legal systems, the actual procedural history of the case, the evidence that was presented or even how to evaluate it in an informed manner – there are several degrees’ worth of knowledge acquisition just there alone, and who would have the time or inclination (not to mention the resources) to do all that work? Especially as there are easy papers to publish.

But not having the skill and knowledge leads them into making elemntary howlers.(3)

So the worth of their contribution to the store of accumulated knowledge is up for questioning. There are nuanced hints, though, that signs of a cognitive dissonance are beginning to surface and be recognised (to some extent, anyway). A full acknowledgement of the cognitive dissonance necessarily entails an annullment and potential negation of the ultimate validity of any thesis based on that dissonance. Any hoped-for validity would have to be salvaged by following a different line of reasoning.

More efficient, collectively, is to leave the shipwreck where it is, and to start fresh work.

The end result will be a secondary wave of academic papers titled, “Misconstructing the news”, “Fakers are not Fakirs”, “Being Lead Astray”, “Outside My Field: I’m not an Expert on THAT, so who do I trust?”, “I read it first on Bruce’s site, and I can’t get it out of my head”, and so on.




(1)
Quote:
"As my noble and learned friend, Lord Pearce, observed in the course of the argument, the ground for quashing inconsistent verdicts in the same trial is not that there is no room for different conclusions on the same facts, but because, if the same body of men reach inconsistent conclusions on the same evidence, there is good ground for thinking that they were subject to confusion of thought affecting their judgment as a whole."

Connelly v DPP, United Kingdom House of Lords (21 Apr 1964), [1964] AC 1254 at p 1354; [1964] 2 WLR 1145; [1964] 2 All ER 401; 48 Cr App R 183 (Lord Devlin).


(2) Ann Wolbert Burgess, Cheryl Regehr and Albert R Roberts, Victimology: Theories and Applications, 2nd edition, (2013) [Jones & Bartlett Learning, 2013]

(3) Howlers are macaroni in Italian, meaning what a typical stereotype yokel or someone else unacquainted the material, such as student, would produce: “e non è mai consigliabile inserire i rientri (qualcuno li chiama indentatura, traducendo maccheronicamente l’inglese indentation) sotto forma di tabulazioni” ("and it is never advisable to insert indentations (which some people call 'gear enmeshments', doing a howler translation of the English "indentation") under the form of tabulations") — Virginio B Sala, Tesi di laurea con comuter e Internet, [APOGEO, 2009] (Doing a thesis with computer and Internet), p 70. ISBN 9788850328529
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:19 am   Post subject: KNOX ON FORCED CONFESSIONS   

Hi, Catnip, but someone has to self-interestedly declare at the APLS conference: APLS 2017
Quote:
Knox: We need to make psych-law research available, known to the entire world. #APLS2017 #interrogations #confessions #wrongfulconvictions

and, on the podium with her: False Kassin
Quote:
Kassin: I've never seen a case more steeped in misinformation than Amanda Knox's #apls2017

then he repeats the 50 hrs. interrogation once again, LOL.
Quote:
Kassin: Knox was questioned for over 50 hours but none was recorded. #APLS2017
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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:18 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Poor chap doesn't know how to cite.

Not a scholar.

= = =
I added up the times mentioned in Amanda's defence team's submission (can't remember now if it was the trial, or the first appeal), and it was one hour out, compared to what was claimed as the total time. (Perhaps I made a mistake? Someone can go and double-check.) And also, they said that she "was available for questioning" during that time, not that she was. A minor point, but doesn't stop a good story. (Talking of stereotypes, if Italians are supposed to be emotional and exaggerative at the drop of a hat, then why are the lawyers' claims so mechanically sober and the reporting of those claims so wildly over the top? ;) )

How would anyone double-check what Kassin claims (presumably he has sources)?

If Kassin typed for 50 hours, and no citation/reference was recorded, does that remove points from his accreditation total ("demerit points", we call them here: get too many of those, and you're out)?
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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:21 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hi Rumpole,

Here’s another useful book:

— Jean-Pierre Brodier, L'odalisque, ou la représentation de la femme imaginaire, (2005) [L'Harmattan, 2009] (The Odalisque, or, Representing the Imaginary Woman). ISBN 9782747597074



-----

On a different note,

Quote:
“… thinking like a lawyer is clever and complex. It involves a capacity to span a wide range of cognitive repertoires – from technical rational reason, to critical thinking, to creative thinking.”

— Rachael Field, James Duffy and Anna Huggins, Lawyering and Positive Professional Identities, (2014) [LexisNexis Butterworths, 2014], [7.70] (p 223). ISBN 9780409334463


what would Gies and co’s list of books to read on the bus look like, on the way to their legal tutorial?

Here are some potential titles:

— Ennio Amodio, Processo penale diritto europeo e common law: Dal rito inquisitorio al giusto processo, (2003) [Giuffrè, ] (Criminal Procedure - European Law and Common Law: From Inquisitions to Fair Trials). ISBN 9788814097973

— Gugliemo Gulotta and Luisa Puddu, La persuasione forense: Strategie e tattiche, (2004) [Giuffrè, ] (Persuading in Court: Strategies and Tactics). ISBN 9788814104824

— Jordi Ferrer Beltrán, La valutazione razionale della prova, (2012) [Giuffrè, 2012] (The Rational Evaluation of Evidence). ISBN 9788814163326

— Alessandro Cappa, Agostino De Caro, Francesco Rizzo and Andrea Ruggiero, La formazione della prova nel giudizio: Dall'udienza preliminare al dibattimento, (2009) [UTET, 2009] (The Formation of Proof in Legal Judgements: From Preliminary Hearing to Trial). ISBN 9788859804109

— Monica Cucci, Giuseppe Gennari, Andrea Gentilomo and others, L'uso della prova scientifica nell processo penale, (2012) [Maggioli, 2012] (The Use of Scientific Evidence in Criminal Trials). ISBN 9788838773129


And something that might sound strange at first, but isn’t really:

— Giovanni Pascuzzi, La creatività del giurista: Tecniche e strategie dell’innovazione giurdidica, (2013) [Zanichelli, 2013] (Legal Creativity: Techniques and Strategies of Judicial Innovation). ISBN 9788808164162


And for the true sociologists:

— Franco Stefanoni, Il codice del potere: Avvocati d'Italia, (2007) [Melampo, 2007] (The Power Code: Italian Lawyers). ISBN 9788889533185

Quote:
“In Rome, in fact, criminal law intertwines with the political world, both because part of the lawyers are politically active, and because almost all of them are involved in defending members of the government and of Parliament, not to mention various heads of the Public Service.”

— Stefanoni, The Power Code, p 210.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

According to Sollecito, his lawyers have lodged an appeal with the Supreme Court, against the ruling of the Court of Appeal of Florence. On March 7, he gave another interview to Radio Cusano Campus, in which he mentioned it:

Raffaele Sollecito: “I’m innocent but treated as guilty”
By Roberto Arduini

Raffaele Sollecito doesn’t give up. That they had refused to award him a compensation for wrongful imprisonment did not get him down. And speaking on Radio Cusano Campus during ECG, the format led by Roberto Arduini and Andrea Di Ciancio, he announces: "We have already appealed, even if waiting for an answer will take a few months."

Raffaele Sollecito is still suffering from the fact that the Court of Appeal of Florence has rejected his claim for unjust detention: "I'm not okay. Considering everything I went through during all these years, for me it's really a shame what happened. We appealed against a judgment that is written in clearly/totally accusatory key, a ruling that is in fact a new sentence, which does not take into account what emerged earlier in all the trials that had to do with my case.

I spent 4 years in prison, 3 and a half years in a supermax (maximum security prison, ed) and lived through another six years of injustice, and, basically, I was in limbo, in a kind of prison under house arrest, because both the magistrates and the people have continued to look at me and comment on everything I do or say, so much so that I must give account of my real life to others, to those, who have prejudices, and to everyone who sees in me an image that does not really exist."


http://www.tag24.it/174380-raffaele-sol ... colpevole/

The rest of the interview consists of his usual complaints that he has repeated so many times before. It can be safely ignored.

Audio of the interview “Voglio Giustizia" (“I want Justice”) is here:

http://www.tag24.it/podcast/raffaele-so ... giustizia/
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

In other news:

March 10, 2017

Meredith, lawyer: she can now be remembered outside the courtroom
Civil party’s lawyer presents book in Perugia, PM in the audience

‘Meredith Kercher's family can finally remember the poor Mez outside the courtroom': this is now the state of mind / mood of the family of the British student murdered in Perugia, according to their Florentine lawyer, Francesco Maresca. The lawyer presented his book “The Meredith trial, perfect justice?”, at a meeting in Perugia.

Also present [in the audience] Giuliano Mignini, the magistrate who has followed the investigation right from the start. […] Responding to ANSA, on the sidelines of the meeting, Maresca said, for the Kercher family, there remained “the memory of a difficult and long experience with the Italian justice system, after which they were left with so many question marks, and the feeling of an imperfect justice.”


ANSA

March 17, 2017

Sollecito’s lawyer: Guede should be banished (expelled, deported) [from Italy]
"As soon as he is finished serving sentence," says lawyer Maori

'Once he served his sentence, Rudy Guede should be expelled from Italy': this request came from the lawyer Luca Maori, one of the defenders of Raffaele Sollecito. The Ivorian has been spending these days in Perugia, home of his former fifth grade teacher, where he's taking advantage of a [special] permit award. […] '[We would like to] ask the police station in Perugia - Maori continued - to take action and initiate the expulsion procedure of Guede, who is not an Italian national, as soon as he finishes serving his sentence (in the Viterbo prison - ed.) Many foreigners are expelled from our country for far less serious offenses than murder for which the Ivorian has been convicted.”


ANSA
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Offline Rumpole


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:57 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

guermantes wrote:
In other news:

March 10, 2017

Meredith, lawyer: she can now be remembered outside the courtroom
Civil party’s lawyer presents book in Perugia, PM in the audience

‘Meredith Kercher's family can finally remember the poor Mez outside the courtroom': this is now the state of mind / mood of the family of the British student murdered in Perugia, according to their Florentine lawyer, Francesco Maresca. The lawyer presented his book “The Meredith trial, perfect justice?”, at a meeting in Perugia.

Also present [in the audience] Giuliano Mignini, the magistrate who has followed the investigation right from the start. […] Responding to ANSA, on the sidelines of the meeting, Maresca said, for the Kercher family, there remained “the memory of a difficult and long experience with the Italian justice system, after which they were left with so many question marks, and the feeling of an imperfect justice.”


ANSA

March 17, 2017

Sollecito’s lawyer: Guede should be banished (expelled, deported) [from Italy]
"As soon as he is finished serving sentence," says lawyer Maori

'Once he served his sentence, Rudy Guede should be expelled from Italy': this request came from the lawyer Luca Maori, one of the defenders of Raffaele Sollecito. The Ivorian has been spending these days in Perugia, home of his former fifth grade teacher, where he's taking advantage of a [special] permit award. […] '[We would like to] ask the police station in Perugia - Maori continued - to take action and initiate the expulsion procedure of Guede, who is not an Italian national, as soon as he finishes serving his sentence (in the Viterbo prison - ed.) Many foreigners are expelled from our country for far less serious offenses than murder for which the Ivorian has been convicted.”


ANSA


Maori sounds like a racist. Guede's lived in Italy since he was 5 so he's more Italian than Ivorian by now.

But as I thought a week ago reading Yvonne Jewkes's Foreword, she and the other writers of the Transmedia book make some erroneous claims, such as these:

  • "It is only Rudy Guede, the sole individual serving time for Meredith’s murder, who is reduced to a simple characterisation; a single word, in fact. Despite having
    lived in Italy for 16 years at the time of the murder, and having become a naturalised Italian citizen, by far the most common descriptor of Guede in the Italian press is ‘ivoriano’ (see Heim, Chap. 8)."


  • "the colourful and notorious chief prosecutor Giuliano Mignini was accused of abusing his authority in trying to pin the murder on Knox and Sollecito, but was subsequently
    cleared of all charges and has resumed his legal career; he has threatened to sue Knox for defamation and has brought similar charges
    against a Seattle newspaper and an online blogger."

Maori certainly proves Jewkes' point with regard to the word "Ivorian", although the fact that he isn't a naturalized Italian citizen might be one reason for that. Were he from France or some other neighbouring European country, he most probably wouldn't be receiving the same kind of treatment.

As for Mignini, I recall him being investigated in connection with the Narducci case, but was there also some other investigation of him with regard to this Meredith Kercher case?
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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

"colourful and notorious" is newspaper defamation-avoiding code for "corrupt, associating with criminals".

We used to have a lot of starting price bookies here described as "a colourful racing identity", back in the 70s and 80s.

"colourful and notorious" Jewkes is accused of mangling facts, mis-stating the law with intent to deceive, and plagiarism for the intent of propagandising.

Doesn't sound so "colourful", when the boot is on the other foot, does it?

Even if true.

The alternative charge is even worse: Jewkes is engaging in "mere puffery", which is expected behaviour in the advertising sector. Puffery is of no import to anyone. Especially when it comes to facts and lazy writers.
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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Say there is a translation factor, and someone may have said something like "(defacto) citizen" or "can be one, if he wants".

It still comes down to five-second journalism (with no sources? so opinion??), and potential use of a thesaurus.

The reliability, accuracy and trustworthiness of something comes down to how much time was spent preparing and researching it.

You wouldn't expect court reporters to be so slapdash, unbalanced and copy-pastey.
What happened to Bongiorno conducting the case in the media, or her giving Amanda the boot (which seems to have gone above the heads of the sidelined cheersquad) or Maori being sly with his seed-planting? There's a real story behind the scenes. On the US side, too. Why is "the DNA guy" so shy all of a sudden? etc.

What does the background story do to the facade story?
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Offline Sallyoo


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Regarding the spiteful Maori, and his ambition to expel Guede the Ivorian (when he has finished his sentence). Has anybody seen a comment from a Sollecito on this development, or is it Maori attention seeking on his own behalf?

I ask only because some of the observations made by the younger Sollecito, about the role of imprisonment in society, have been reformist, in line with his stated allegiance with the Italian Radical Party. A call for expulsion of Guede wouldn't, in my opinion, sit very happily with Raf's professed beliefs. (Although, la partita radicale is split down the middle, and some peculiar alliances are being constructed - so it's probably par for the Italian political and opportunistic class to see no contradictions.)
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Sallyoo, I think it's because they're still scared if what Guede might say next in his appeal. Interesting to note Guede for all his faults, still seems to have supporters in Italy. Sollecito doesn't.
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Offline Rumpole


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

re Guede's nationality: the more I try to check this, the more confused I become. I definitely remember having read ages ago, that's years ago, in the British papers and tabloids that Guede is a naturalized citizen of Italy. Tried to check the fact because I'd thought up to that time that he in fact wasn't. Couldn't find any verification. Then when I was reading Jewkes' foreword I was glad to finally find a veritable source for "this fact" that I now thought was confirmed. Then a few days later Guermantes comes with this above Maori quote, which destroys that belief. Him being a lawyer and having actually participated in the trial, I presume now that he's the one that has the best truth. But, - sighing heavily - I don't know what the truth is. Can Maori be trusted to be the truth guy in this matter?

I've googled again today, and at least both BBC (in 2009) and Daily Mail (2016) have claimed that Guede has joint Italian and Ivorian citizenships in which case, one presumes, he could not be deported. Unless Italy has a law that allows the state to expel citizens of Guede's type after they've committed serious crimes. Can an Italian citizen with dual nationality born outside of the EU be expelled?

BBC 2009 (prestige over Mail?:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8427250.stm

Quote:
Guede, who has joint Italian and Ivorian nationality, had chosen to be tried separately from the pair - in a fast-track trial behind closed doors - because he feared they may form a pact.


Daily Mail 2016:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... urant.html

CHRIS SUMMERS FOR MAILONLINE wrote:
Guede, who has joint Italian and Ivorian citizenship, was spotted dining with friends at a classy restaurant in the Italian city of Viterbo


After researching this more, I would not accuse Jewkes that much, I think it's the editors of the book, Lieve Gies and Maria Bortoluzzi (Italian!) that are the main culprits, if there are in fact any errors in the essays of that book. Maybe they have checked Guede's nationality issue and know for a fact that he is in fact an Italian citizen - couldn't check properly as I haven't got the book - yet, made an acquisition request to the uni library here, so might get to read it some day.

Jewkes refers to ch. 8 (should be chapter 9, another mistake by the editors, maybe they shuffled the chapters around and forgot to update the references, in any case they should've checked and corrected Jewkes' foreword) and Heim for the nationality ref. Julia Heim seems to be a very experienced translator of Italian texts, so don't see how this could be a translation error. Read bits of her essay (with the help of Google Books), it's ok stuff, standard stuff a' la the black otherness amongst the Italians, shown by discourse using the word "ivoriano", the black man etc.

Quote:
Race, a Floating Signifier, or Rudy Guede in the Italian Press

Julia Heim

Abstract

In this chapter Julia Heim uses semiotics, and cultural and postcolonial theories to discuss how Rudy Guede is represented in the Italian newspaper La Repubblica before, during, and after his conviction. Starting from the premise that identity is created by and through socio-political discourse, this in-depth linguistic investigation maps out the discursive strategies used by the Italian media to discuss Guede. Heim elaborates on the ways in which linguistic portrayals of Guede serve to simultaneously instil moral panic toward ‘others’ and reaffirm Italian/Non-Italian binaries by solidifying ethnobiological connections between national affiliation and criminality.


More about Julia Heim here:

http://www.queeritalia.com/project-team/



Bortoluzzi's essay "Voices of Self- and Other-Identification from a Pro-Innocent Community. Action-Oriented Discourses in Online Popular Forensics" in Social Media Discourse, (Dis)identifications and Diversities, 2017, also talks about Guede as an Italian national:

Bortoluzzi wrote:
Introduction

By sparking controversies and debates, there are events that epitomize translocal diversity and heterogeneity of public positioning in media and social media. The murder case of Meredith Kercher is such an event. Meredith Kercher, a British citizen, was brutally murdered in 2007 in Perugia, Italy, while staying there as an Erasmus Exchange student. The murder investigations led to a series of trials involving Raffaele Sollecito (an Italian), Amanda Knox (a US citizen) and Rudy Guede (a naturalized Italian of Ivorian origin).





Apparently, Gies and Bortoluzzi et al. have followed both Perugia Murder File and Injustice in Perugia since 2008 and attempted to contact both boards to have questionnaires administered in 2012 - never heard of this, have any of you? (See Design of Study in the above essay.) When they didn't succeed, they decided to focus on IIP pro-innocence campaigners. I'd think that the Rand board would've been a more interesting choice, the discussion was more intelligent and varied there. But of course, there were pro-guilt folks also cluttering the board.


More about Bortoluzzi and her research publications (associate professor of English in university of Udine):

http://uniud.academia.edu/MariaBortoluzzi



True or false, there are at least two books that now include claims that he's an Italian citizen. This is how fake facts and news get circulated (in case this is a fake fact, of course). Would be really nice to know what's the truth. Is there a way to check this somehow via Italian records offices?


Last edited by Rumpole on Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Rumpole


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:21 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

In case anyone's interested, I copied some of the pages from Bortoluzzi's IIP essay that I found online, please find them attached in pdf format.


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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:29 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Don't recall any psychologists queries here, Rumpole. Probably went to ORG.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:58 am   Post subject: GUEDE'S RESIDENCY   

Hi, Rumpole, from The Micheli Sentencing Report
Quote:
[44] To him were attributed, with a more detailed examination, some 14 partial fingerprints which, collected by the Scientific Police and adjudged as useful for probable comparisons, did not result in being attributed to any of the subjects identified as possible visitors to the apartment; amongst said partials, the major part of which had been collected from different locations in Ms KERCHER’s room, the first, marked as “Exhibit B”, was – with annotations from 16 November 2007 by the Legal Identity Section – attributed with absolute certainty to Mr GUEDE, from whom there was prior fingerprint data from 2005 and in the same 2007. On 16 June 2005, Mr GUEDE had been placed under legal proceedings according to Statute No 189/2002, in the ambit of matters concerning his Italian residency permit, while on 27 October 2007 (ergo, just five days before the murder) he had been identified in the Milan jurisdiction and had been charged without arrest [a piede libero] for theft, receipt of stolen goods, holding and carrying arms.

No eveidence he had applied for the EC long term residency permit or Italian permanent residency card Carta di Soggiorno though it's possible that he applied for it in 2005.
Quote:
2.1 Carta di Soggiorno
The website of the Italian state police indicates that the EC long-term residence permit has replaced the carta di soggiorno since 8 January 2007 (Italy 29 Mar. 2010b)

One thing is certain though; Guede cannot obtain Italian citizenship because of his criminal record (see http://www.refworld.org/docid/50b611d92.html)

Technically, his residency permit can be revoked after his sentence is served though that might be different if he did receive permanent residency. Somehow I don't see him being deported back to the Ivory Coast.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:11 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

And the only complaint regarding Mignini in the Knox and Sollecito case was a complaint about his 'misuse of public funds' CGI video produced in court, went no where.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:17 pm   Post subject: MCCANN LAWSUIT REJECTED   

Portugal Resident
Quote:
March 21, 2017 - This may be the end of the line for the long-running civil case taken out by the parents of Madeleine McCann to ‘silence’ their bête-noir, former PJ coordinator Gonçalo Amaral.

After all the hullaballoo and recriminations filling UK tabloids, Supreme court judge Dr Jorge Manuel Roque Nogueira has rejected the complaint lodged by Kate and Gerry McCann over what they considered a frivolous decision by fellow judges to uphold Gonçalo Amaral’s right to freedom of expression, sanctioning the intrinsic legality of his damning thesis ‘Maddie: the Truth of the Lie’.

Roque Nogueira’s decision, taken earlier today and published in PDF format online, means that Amaral has won the case for the third and possibly final time.

There is no higher court in Portugal to which the McCanns can take this fight - and the grounds for appeal to the European Court of Human Rights are “highly dubious”, said a source, particularly as Supreme Court judges referred to tenets set out by the ECHR in their 75-page deliberation.

Daily Mail
Quote:
Furious Gerry and Kate made it clear through lawyers that they strongly disagreed with the judges' 'erroneous' premise the lifting of their status as 'arguidos' or formal suspects did not mean they were innocent of any involvement in their daughter's May 3, 2007 disappearance.

So, not exonerated or acquitted then.
Don't see Sollecito or Knox going far at ECHR either.
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Offline Fast Pete


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:00 pm   Post subject: Re: MCCANN LAWSUIT REJECTED   

Ergon wrote:
Portugal Resident
Quote:
March 21, 2017 - This may be the end of the line for the long-running civil case taken out by the parents of Madeleine McCann to ‘silence’ their bête-noir, former PJ coordinator Gonçalo Amaral.

After all the hullaballoo and recriminations filling UK tabloids, Supreme court judge Dr Jorge Manuel Roque Nogueira has rejected the complaint lodged by Kate and Gerry McCann over what they considered a frivolous decision by fellow judges to uphold Gonçalo Amaral’s right to freedom of expression, sanctioning the intrinsic legality of his damning thesis ‘Maddie: the Truth of the Lie’.

Roque Nogueira’s decision, taken earlier today and published in PDF format online, means that Amaral has won the case for the third and possibly final time.

There is no higher court in Portugal to which the McCanns can take this fight - and the grounds for appeal to the European Court of Human Rights are “highly dubious”, said a source, particularly as Supreme Court judges referred to tenets set out by the ECHR in their 75-page deliberation.

Daily Mail
Quote:
Furious Gerry and Kate made it clear through lawyers that they strongly disagreed with the judges' 'erroneous' premise the lifting of their status as 'arguidos' or formal suspects did not mean they were innocent of any involvement in their daughter's May 3, 2007 disappearance.

So, not exonerated or acquitted then.
Don't see Sollecito or Knox going far at ECHR either.


Nice catch there. It led me to this astonishing link.

http://portugalresident.com/millions-of ... %9D-online

Visits 81 million! So getting sued is one way to promote the truth?!
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:01 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Yes, Pete, a team of dedicated volunteers, like ours, getting the truth out there.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 8:48 pm   Post subject: "Indisputable presence ... at the time of the murder" ?!!!   

Ergon wrote:
Attached is a copy of the Appeals Court decision filed February 10, 2017. Source:
It notes he had changed his story 5 times.


Thank you for providing this, Ergon, and thank you to the volunteers who made the effort to translate it!!!

BUT it needs to be said that there MUST be a mistake!

Either the learned judges are incorrect, or the translation of their words is incorrect - for example, this translation would have us believe that the appellate court wrote:


"...in the light of the judicial truth established in the acquittal ruling concerning the indisputable presence of Knox in 7 Via della Pergola at the time of the murder..."


Based on my last look at the ISF thread (and the 5 or so remaining lay people who, sadly, are STILL beginning and ending each day with pro-Knox posts, LOOooooooong past the point where case-related news is being regularly published), those simply CANNOT be the words of the appellate court judges because the following (apparently) incurable obsessives* with NOTHING else to do - EVER (not even for ONE week!) - are ADAMANTLY contending that the Supreme Court did NOT affirm the finding that Knox was 'indisputably present during the murder':

a) a guy who is apparently unemployed ('sup, Decimals - STILL struggling to get a decent LSAT score?! XD)
b) a guy who is apparently drunk and/or stupid
c) a guy who is apparently fat and lonely ('sup, El Duderino-still dreaming of fetching coffee for your idol?!)
d) a guy who is apparently a compulsive liar
e) a guy who is apparently ALL OF THE ABOVE - unemployed, drunk, stupid, fat, lonely AND a compulsive liar! (Time to take up that banjo, Old Man! Law just isn't your thing and neither are the sciences.)



* the ISF set are STILL continuing to offer nothing more than this:

-ZERO hours of professional legal training at an accredited university,
-ZERO hours of professional medical training at an accredited university,
-ZERO hours of training in forensic sciences (esp. genetics) at an accredited university,
-ZERO hours of professional training as a homicide detective, &
-ZERO hours of professional training as a translator.

( p-((( Wake me up if Erasmus44 ever finds the energy to articulate his reasoning at an altitude lower than the 35,000 foot level - he's the only anti-prosecution poster I've seen truly worth a second thought. IIRC, he once (adroitly) skipped any detailed discussion of whether the Supreme Court affirmed the finding that Knox 'was there', and the frightening implications of such a finding, by citing the need to get input from a learned Italian lawyer as to what the Supreme Court actually wrote - it seems he now has PRECISELY THAT courtesy of not just one, not just two, but THREE learned Italian jurists who are not only lawyers but APPELLATE JUDGES!!! Evidently, e44 was once a brilliant scholar, so I sincerely hope his slumming with furriers and fugitives hasn't turned him into just another internet "bum" ... )
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Offline hugo


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:09 pm   Post subject: Re: "Indisputable presence ... at the time of the murder" ?!!!   

Jackie wrote:

BUT it needs to be said that there MUST be a mistake!

Either the learned judges are incorrect, or the translation of their words is incorrect - for example, this translation would have us believe that the appellate court wrote:


"...in the light of the judicial truth established in the acquittal ruling concerning the indisputable presence of Knox in 7 Via della Pergola at the time of the murder..."


Based on my last look at the ISF thread (and the 5 or so remaining lay people who, sadly, are STILL beginning and ending each day with pro-Knox posts, LOOooooooong past the point where case-related news is being regularly published), those simply CANNOT be the words of the appellate court judges because the following (apparently) incurable obsessives* with NOTHING else to do - EVER (not even for ONE week!) - are ADAMANTLY contending that the Supreme Court did NOT affirm the finding that Knox was 'indisputably present during the murder':


Yup. The acquitting Marasca panel stated multiple times that Knox's presence in the apartment at the time of the murder was 'certain'. And the groupies tried to play games with mistranslation and syntax and vocabulary, but the Florentine judges confirmed it completely.

Quote:
( p-((( Wake me up if Erasmus44 ever finds the energy to articulate his reasoning at an altitude lower than the 35,000 foot level - he's the only anti-prosecution poster I've seen truly worth a second thought. IIRC, he once (adroitly) skipped any detailed discussion of whether the Supreme Court affirmed the finding that Knox 'was there', and the frightening implications of such a finding, by citing the need to get input from a learned Italian lawyer as to what the Supreme Court actually wrote - it seems he now has PRECISELY THAT courtesy of not just one, not just two, but THREE learned Italian jurists who are not only lawyers but APPELLATE JUDGES!!! Evidently, e44 was once a brilliant scholar, so I sincerely hope his slumming with furriers and fugitives hasn't turned him into just another internet "bum" ... )


He's a disappointment. An expert in intellectual property law, but whatever he was taught when young about criminal law he's clearly prepared to forget on behalf of this particular defendant and her crew.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 7:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

guermantes wrote:
...
Raffaele Sollecito: “I’m innocent but treated as guilty”
By Roberto Arduini

Raffaele Sollecito doesn’t give up. That they had refused to award him a compensation for wrongful imprisonment did not get him down. And speaking on Radio Cusano Campus during ECG, the format led by Roberto Arduini and Andrea Di Ciancio, he announces: "We have already appealed, even if waiting for an answer will take a few months."


Yes, indeed, Sollecito doesn't easily give up being a nuisance / pest. On March 22, he gave an interview to Ryan Tubridy on RTÉ Radio 1 in the UK. He just can't leave Meredith's parents and siblings in peace.

Amanda Knox Former Boyfriend / ‘It has been hard to get on with my life’

RTÉ Radio 1

Download it below or from HERE if you like, but be careful: as everybody knows, it's a kind of slow torture to have to listen to Sollecito's English. ;) A short segment of 1 min 30 sec in the preview was enough for me.

Attachment:
Raffaele Sollecito March 22, 2017 Interview to Ryan Tubridy.mp3


ETA: Sorry, a correction: RTÉ Radio 1 is a radio station based in Ireland, but still, this Talk Show is also broadcast in the UK.


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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Knox is not far behind Sollecito. For tweets and pictures from the 2017 Innocence Network Conference, March 24-25 in San Diego (with Amanda Knox in attendance), go here:

https://twitter.com/amamaknox?ref_src=t ... r%5Eauthor

This time, Knox was allowed to attend it without her mom, accompanied just by her boyfriend. ;)

Quote:
CA Innocence Project‏ @CA_Innocence Mar 25
On my page you'll see cats - or you'll see anti-death penalty stuff - Amanda Knox talks about when to be public vs private - #INconf2017

Quote:
CA Innocence Project @CA_Innocence Mar 25
social media is the great equalizer - #AmandaKnox - she also touches on the neg effects of social media - warning about haters #INconf2017

https://twitter.com/CA_Innocence/status/845674113322684417

I still can't understand what she has been doing by hitching her wagon to the Innocence Network in the US. She was convicted and acquitted (NOT exonerated) in Italy. She is just a hanger-on.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:51 pm   Post subject: Innocence Network Conference 2017   

guermantes wrote:
Knox is not far behind Sollecito. For tweets and pictures from the 2017 Innocence Network Conference, March 24-25 in San Diego (with Amanda Knox in attendance), go here:

I still can't understand what she has been doing by hitching her wagon to the Innocence Network in the US. She was convicted and acquitted (NOT exonerated) in Italy. She is just a hanger-on.


That would be the third INC event she's attended in a month, guermantes, plus another coming up in Florida next month.

This was probably attractive because, California.

Peter Neufeld and Barry Scheck will be there along with Hollywood producers (she's looking for someone to make a movie about her) hbc)

Innocence Network Conference

4:00pm-6:00pm
Welcome Gathering for Women Exonerees in the Exoneree Lounge (Marina 6- for women exonerees only)

10:15am– 11:30am
Litigating False Confession Innocence Cases: Time-Tested and Innovative Approaches to the Use of Expert Testimony

and,
Creating and Maintaining an Innocence Organization

11:45am- 1:00pm
Working with the Media in Innocence Cases: Ethical & Strategic Considerations
(Network Members Only)

1:45pm – 3:00pm
Don't Forget to Look Under the Small Rocks!

and
Using Social Media in More Advanced Ways

2:45pm – 4:00pm
The GoFundMe Effect - Crowd funding for Your Organization and Clients

3:15pm – 4:30pm
Resources for Reform: Tools for Effective Policy Advocacy (Network Members only)

and
Podcasting for Innocence

4:45pm- 5:45pm
Presentation of Exoneree Art Project (the hand drawing will be there).

Of course she'll be there.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:36 am   Post subject: OPEN LETTER TO SAUL KASSIN   

SAUL KASSIN CAN'T COUNT
Can't help himself either nw)

Open letter to Professor Kassin: Show your data!
Amanda Knox and Saul Kassin at the American Psychology Law Society Conference 2017
Seattle, Washington
March 16th-18th, 2017
Saul Kassin:
Quote:
Kassin: Knox was questioned for over 50 hours but none was recorded #APLS2017
Source: https://twitter.com/JeffKukucka/status/ ... 6066445312

Kassin:
Quote:
I've never seen a case more steeped in misinformation than Amanda Knox's #apls2017
Source: https://twitter.com/jessicaswanner/stat ... 3527454720

Attachment:
Knox Kassin II.jpg

So, where did the magical 50 hrs interrogation in 5 days that 'inevitably lead to false confessions' first appear? Professor Kassin will not say, or provide background information to the crowded rooms of trainee law psychologists he and Amanda Knox have been repeating this claim to. So, here's the background he seems to have missed.
Injustice in Perugia
Quote:
In the five days after the murder of Meredith Kercher, Amanda Knox was interrogated by detectives for 43 hours - Steve Moore

CBS News-48 Hrs
Quote:
Amanda's focus was the appeal - and she soon had a world-renown ally.
"This case horrifies me. I'd like to say it shocks me. But I've seen others like it," said psychologist and professor Saul Kassin, an expert on police interrogations.
On his own initiative, Kassin filed a report with the Italian (appeals) court on Amanda's behalf. It outlines some of the psychological reasons why Amanda could have confessed to a murder she did not commit.
"Amanda Knox, like everybody, has a breaking point. She reached her breaking point," he explained. "Eight or 10 or 12 police officials in a tag team-manner come in and interrogate her... Their goal is a confession and they're not leaving that room without it."

Note: Er, no record of Kassin's report in the Hellmann court files, and Amanda Knox never released it either. But Hellmann ruled she should have known Patrick Lumumba was innocent and upheld her 3 year conviction for criminal defamation (calunnia) anyway.
Innocence Project
Quote:
Why Confessions Trump Innocence
Saul M. Kassin
John Jay College of Criminal Justice, City University of New York

Armed with a prejudgment of Knox’s guilt, several police officials interrogated the girl on and off for four days. Her final interrogation started on November 5 at 10 p.m. and lasted until November 6 at 6 a.m., during which time she was alone, without an attorney, tag-teamed by a dozen police, and did not break for food or sleep.

CNN Transcripts
Quote:
CNN May 8, 2011
CURT KNOX, FATHER: Between the time that they actually found Meredith and when Amanda was arrested, there was roughly a 90-hour timeframe. And I'm ball parking the numbers there. During that time, Amanda was in the police station for questioning for -- I believe it was 52 hours.

Now we're getting a little closer to the truth. Knox was at the station for maybe 52 hours, but actually wasn't 'interrogated' for that long.

Then going back to when those figures first came out: King 5 News
Amanda Knox's family says confession coerced
By LINDA BYRON / KING 5 News
Posted on November 13, 2009 at 12:16 PM

Quote:
She was just flat scared to be alone," Curt said. "So she went down to the police station with him and they were split into two rooms and then they started going at them. With physical and mental abuse for 14 hours. No food, water, no official interpreter."
Prosecutors say Amanda's accounts swung wildly: She wasn't at the cottage the night of the murder. She was there, but drunk in another room.
But her parents say she was coerced by police.
"(They said) you know, you're never going to see your family again," Curt said. "You're going to jail for 30 years. You need to come up with something for us, you're a liar. Come up with something for us. Envision something; throw something out there."

There's a summary here: Dalla Vedova/Ghirga appeal to Hellmann
Quote:
(p.12) Amanda Knox è stata sottoposta ad esame ed attività investigative e tra il 2 e il 6 novembre 2007, fino al momento del fermo, ha fornito sommarie informazioni e risposto a domande della A.G. come segue:
l 2 novembre 2007, ore 15.30 VENERDI’: totale ore …………..
12,00
Verbale di sommarie informazioni della Knox, senza indicazione della chiusura.
Testimoni fino alle 3.00 am del 3 novembre 2007
l 3 novembre 2007, ore 14.45 SABATO totale ore ………………
8,00
Verbale di sommarie informazioni della Knox, senza indicazione della chiusura.
Testimoni indicano fino alle 22,00.
l 4 novembre 2007, ore 14.45 DOMENICA: totale ore ………….
12,00
Verbale di sommarie informazioni della Knox, ed accesso alla villetta di Via
della Pergola dalle ore 14.45 alle ore 21. Telefonata di Amanda alla zia dice 5 ore
di interrogatorio in questura
l 5/6 novembre 2007, ore 01.45 LUNEDI’/MARTEDI’: totale ore ……..
5,00
Verbale di sommarie informazioni della Knox inizio alle ore 22.00 del 5
novembre 2009.
l 6 novembre 2007, ore 05.45 MARTEDI’: totale ore ……………….
3,45
Verbale di “spontanee dichiarazioni” della Knox con successivo breve
memoriale. Dalle ore 1,45 alle 5,45 e memoriale alle ore 14,00.

In 5 giorni la Knox è stata sentita per un totale di circa 53,45 h.

Except, I count a total of 40.45 hrs, hmm, not all of which was spent being interrogated. She was in the waiting room with the others, as confirmed by her own phone records, e-mails home, texts, etc. Not to forget head stands, cartwheels, yoga poses and general faffing around with Sollecito. The defense realized their math was off so included an additional 13.0 hrs. to the time of her memoriale though they counted their own figures twice, Lol. (see attachment below). Keep in mind her attorneys never argued the time was unreasonable, only that the accusation should not be considered for the calunnia charge. Their summary was only to show how long she had been 'present for examination' in that time she was at the Questura till her arrest, and even then, their figures were wrong..

According to Rita Ficarra's Testimony
Knox was let go by the evening of the first day so the 12 hours interrogation figure is incorrect. She also had an official interpreter by 12:30, (Nov. 06) was fed and allowed to rest in between, wasn't slapped, and there were only two detectives present.

Twitter user Soletrader4U analyzed her phone records and case files and came up with a more realistic figure of 17.45 hrs of actual interrogation.

Given that to be the case, I invite Professor Kassin to correct his figures and explain how, according to his research, Amanda Knox could have produced a "False Confession" over the span of 17.45 hours of interrogation over 5 days? Did you actually 'file a report on Amanda Knox' with the court?

ETA: See below on defense consultant Prof. Carlo Caltagirone of the University of Rome, who refers to Prof. Kassin's published work on false memories and confession. We haven't been able to locate any report by Professor Kassin concerning Amanda Knox in the case files.


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Offline jape


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:02 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I do not even subscribe to 17.45 hours questioning. I think it may have been as little as 12 hours and this encompasses two visits to the cottage, one with Romanelli and Mezzetti, when the questioning would have been about simple things such as the living arrangements and lifestyles of the girls, and the boys down below.

From Knox's letter to Nencini -

"I stayed in Italy and was at the police's beck and call for 50 hours over 4 days, convinced that I could help them find the murderer." Oh dear, how terrible!

It is interesting to read that Ficarra says that Knox was released in the evening of the first day. However she stayed on at the Questura, being driven back to Sollecito's flat by Romanelli and her boyfriend Zaroli at about 6 am. Presumably Sollecito was with them but I don't know.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:13 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hi, jape. Kassin's thesis is that prolonged interrogation caused Knox to falsely accuse Lumumba. If his data's wrong then so is his conclusion. Something I said abt Gill too, once :)
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:53 pm   Post subject: SUPPLEMENTARY NOTES RE: OPEN LETTER TO KASSIN   

Addendum to the OPEN LETTER TO KASSIN posted above.

Attachment:
Kassin Overview II.jpg


From the Wiki, attached are the reports from defense consultant Carlo Caltagirone of the University of Rome with bibliography of publications on false memory and confession, and the testimony of Caltagirone and Patumi (expert on the effects of marijuana on memory).

From the testimony, p. 15:
AVVOCATO DALLA VEDOVA - Ma quindi sempre seguendo la logica se
ci si trova davanti a una situazione dove la persona per
suggestione esterna, per elementi stressogeni nello sforzo di
ricostruire un qualcosa e prendiamo il caso in specie cioè di un
interrogatorio che agli atti risulta essere fatto su vari giorni
per varie ore e noi ne abbiamo calcolate dal 2 fino al 6
novembre il giorno in cui è stata arrestata la nostra assistita,
circa 42 ore di interrogatorio o comunque 42 ore di messa a
disposizione dove è stata comunque sottoposta a domande, vorrei
capire un lampo improvviso di un ricordo in queste condizioni
che tipo di attendibilità ha ai fini anche medici, se fosse un
suo paziente che in una situazione di stress analogo o comunque
R.G. 8/08 - 25/09/2009 c/ Knox Amanda Marie + 1 16
fa una dichiarazione di un fatto che comunque risulta essere
prodotto da una situazione di questo tipo si può considerare
attendibile?

Translate:
LAWYER DALLA VEDOVA - But then again, following the logic if
we are faced with a situation where the person is receiving
external suggestion, under stressful elements in an effort to
reconstruct something and take the case especially that of an
interrogation that takes place over a number of days
for several hours and we have computed from 2 to 6
November, the days she was held for assistance,
about 42 hours of interrogation or at least 42 hours of being
available where she was still subjected to questions, I would like
to understand if a sudden flash of a memory in these conditions
what kind of trust, for medical purposes, if it were
his patient that in a situation of stress or analogous anyway,
makes a statement of fact which still appears to be
products from a situation of this kind can be considered trustworthy?

So CDV corrects himself immediately, counting 42 hours as the time she was available for questioning.

Can Kassin's paper published in APA magazine and repeated at AP-LS 2017 thus be considered 'trustworthy'?


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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:08 pm   Post subject: STILL AT IT ABOUT "HATERS"   

Amanda Knox seems still fixated on the "haters" out there. According to Bruce Fischer, there's only a few of us left? nw) ss)

California Innocence Project
CA Innocence Project‏
@CA_Innocence
social media is the great equalizer - #AmandaKnox - she also touches on the neg effects of social media - warning about haters #INconf2017
9:29 AM - 25 Mar 2017

I dunno, but for most of us it's the whodunit and howdidshegetawaywithit, that gets us la_)


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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:05 pm   Post subject: ABOUT THOSE "HATERS"   

Though Knox might want to have a talk with her own website master, ahem ss)
JusticeInRome


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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:35 pm   Post subject: WHINY, PREDICTABLE, MICHAELB   

PS: Who promptly, predictably, went whining w-(( to the sub boss, bringing him out of hibernation dm-)
Source: Haters gonna hate hate because they are vile, vile :)


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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:27 pm   Post subject: HERE BE NARCISSISTS   

From a really good and timely article in Psychology Today
Why Gaslighters Accuse You of Gaslighting
Accusing you of their own behavior is a classic tactic of gaslighters.
Feb 13, 2017
Quote:
Gaslighters, people who try to control others through manipulation, will often accuse you of behaviors that they are engaged in themselves. This is a classic manipulation tactic. Read more to learn why this tactic works so well....

..Some gaslighters unconsciously project out of guilt or shame. In the case of narcissistic personality disorder, narcissists feel they are totally okay, and think that everyone else has a problem. This is called ego-syntonic behavior. It is very difficult to get a narcissistic gaslighter to get help through counseling — because they think you have the problem, not them. Projecting behavior can get to the point where a gaslighter delusionally believes that they are being persecuted by the victim — when in fact the opposite is true...

..Whatever the origin of the gaslighter’s accusatory behavior, they are still 100 percent responsible for it. Treat all cases of accusations towards you as what they are — accusations, not fact. There is no need to spend your extra energy trying to defend yourself – because it will never be good enough. Instead, take a hard look at whether the behavior the gaslighter accuses you of is actually something they are doing. Don’t let smoke and mirrors get in the way of uncovering the gaslighter’s behavior for what it is — manipulation of you and others by way of accusation and distraction.

Describes Knox (and her enablers) to a T. But this really goes beyond projection. Knox seems to have this active persecution complex going on, that the Kerchers are after her, those of us who comment on the case will stalk her at film premieres and Innocence Conferences,
Attachment:
Peter Cushing.png

yet at the same time takes perverse delight at taunting the victim and her family.

This, was the sexual sadism and psychopathy that led to a very sad murder.


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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:41 pm   Post subject: NEW DOCUMENTARY ON AMANDA KNOX   

France 2 will run a TV program Amanda Knox, Angel or Demon? April 09 at 2300h, local time.

Amanda Knox, ange ou démon ?
Émission du 09/04/2017
Quote:
Amanda Knox a très vite opposé ceux qui défendaient mordicus son innocence et ceux qui la croyaient coupable ; ceux pour qui elle était victime d’un système judiciaire expéditif à la solde du sensationnel, et ceux qui voyaient en elle une criminelle perverse, soutenue par un puissant lobbying américain.
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Offline jamie


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

23:00 in France is 22:00 GMT/BST.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:45 am   Post subject: "indisputable presence"   

Did France 2 happen to mention (per the translation of the recent appellate court ruling in Florence) "the judicial truth established in the acquittal ruling concerning the indisputable presence of Knox in 7 Via della Pergola at the time of the murder..." ????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Or were they as biased (or compromised*) as the people behind the Netflix "documentary"? (Apparently, they were so busy indicting 'the media', they forgot they were ALSO part of 'the media' and, therefore, ALSO under a duty to report what the Supreme Court Justices ACTUALLY wrote about the defendants, not what Knox's PR man wishes** they'd written 8-) )


* as in: if you want access, you gotta play by the PR team's rules (i.e., there's only ONE side to the story worthy of a respectful treatment - HER side!)


** "indisputable presence" is about as far from a 'forceful declaration of innocence' as you can get! XD
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

This program wasn't viewable due to geographic limitations. Hopefully some of our European members saw it or it will show up on their website in a week's time.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:45 pm   Post subject: AMANDA KNOX, ANGEL OR DEMON?   

Here's the video: Comodi, Follain, Lumumba, Mignini and more.

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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Last word goes to Marasca - is it just me or did Marasca look ... 'troubled' as his last word falls from his lips and he looks to the floor and appears to sigh (1:32:17)?
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:39 am   Post subject: AMANDA KNOX DOCUMENTARY REVIEW   

It was a total waste of time. No sub titles, too many voice overs in French making the Italians sound like they'd sniffed helium. On the one hand this, on the other hand that, very French. The portentous music and bad camera work and lighting, took 1:28 hrs. to get to Hellmann, ignored Nencini, then zoomed to the acquittal in 4 minutes. It was like a really bad clone of the Netflix documentary, TBH.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:05 am   Post subject: e44 and the specter of AK's "indisputable presence"   

hugo wrote:
Jackie wrote:

Quote:
( p-((( Wake me up if Erasmus44 ever finds the energy to articulate his reasoning at an altitude lower than the 35,000 foot level - he's the only anti-prosecution poster I've seen truly worth a second thought. IIRC, he once (adroitly) skipped any detailed discussion of whether the Supreme Court affirmed the finding that Knox 'was there', and the frightening implications of such a finding, by citing the need to get input from a learned Italian lawyer as to what the Supreme Court actually wrote - it seems he now has PRECISELY THAT courtesy of not just one, not just two, but THREE learned Italian jurists who are not only lawyers but APPELLATE JUDGES!!! Evidently, e44 was once a brilliant scholar, so I sincerely hope his slumming with furriers and fugitives hasn't turned him into just another internet "bum" ... )


He's a disappointment. An expert in intellectual property law, but whatever he was taught when young about criminal law he's clearly prepared to forget on behalf of this particular defendant and her crew.


Route E44: The path to enlightenment or the road to ruin?
Image
Well, Hugo, I'm not ready to write him off just yet, in fact, on account of his impressive credentials, I'd be very, very interested to see him try to help enlighten us by flying over the evidence at a little lower altitude - he seems to prefer to stay at the 35,000 ft level, where you can't make out some of the nasty little details.

Assuming it's proper to look at a case from that lofty altitude in the first place, his reasoning appears to be fairly unobjectionable: prosecution DNA experts say 'black'; defense DNA experts say 'white'; so let's bring in some 'independent DNA experts' to decide the matter for us.

But that kind of approach allows the 'independent experts' (aka the THIRD set of experts, aka The C Team) to completely USURP the role of the triers (those who are actually on the panel, and those of us who like to pretend we are), who are to consider ALL of the evidence, each piece in relation to the whole - which is NOT something expert witnesses do !!! For example, a DNA expert offers his/her opinion in respect of only the particular DNA matter in issue and, at no point, is s/he called upon to evaluate the DNA evidence in light of the REST of the (non-DNA) evidence: lies to police, failed alibis, eye witnesses, cell tower pings, computer logs, etc., etc., for that is rightfully the domain of the triers and ONLY the triers. (e.g. What are the chances that RS’s FULL autosomal DNA profile got onto the clasp by way of a lower probability tertiary transfer (via sloppy police), rather than a higher probability primary or secondary transfer (via murder and/or staging), given that AK and RS also lied to police???)

e44's 'Leave it to the C Team' approach also seems to elide any evaluation of:

a) whether and to what the degree C and V can be safely considered as "experts" (IIRC, according to Follain, neither had ANY professional experience doing 'technical searches' of crime scenes - NONE; there are also claims V has a rather sordid history in connection with another criminal case, and in connection with substandard conditions in her own lab; etc.);

b) whether and to what degree C and V can be safely considered as "independent" (IIRC, they were seen to be socializing with members of the defense team during the trial (!!!), and Dr. C (IIRC) had given the judge his medical certificate for flying); and (most importantly)

(c) whether and to what extent their testimony should be given any weight (IIRC, C & V made important concessions when faced with cross-examination: MK's full DNA profile was, in fact, found in the sample taken from the blade; they also agreed cross-contamination in the lab could be ruled out because of the procedures in place (including a 6 day gap); RS's full autosomal DNA profile was, in fact, on the clasp; during the evidence and argument phase of the trial there were, apparently, no studies worthy of publication in a prestigious peer-reviwed journal proving that tertiary transfer of touch DNA did, in fact, occur; even when, in 2015, such a study was finally published it made it clear that such transfers were relatively low probability events, even under ideal conditions in a lab (it also incidentally demonstrated how DNA can remain on a hard surface even after cleaning with bleach); V undermined her credibility and objectivity by including erroneous statements about legal matters completely outside the realm of her professional training (BARD standard and its application); etc.).

That said, e44 does seem to recognize his limitations in terms of understanding DNA testing of crime scenes (which is more than can be said for the whole motley crew of (apparently) unemployed lay people who STILL seem to be spending each day AND night of their lives on IA/ ISF pretending they are geneticists, lawyers, doctors, journalists, translators and "innocence project" volunteers).

For example, here are 2 instances where, to his credit, e44 admits he has no idea what the FOA's imaginary forensic geneticists are on about (can’t say I blame him - after all, one is just an introductory chem teacher, and the other appears to be an unemployed internet bum who alternates between long bouts of pretending to be a ECHR lawyer and short bouts of pretending to be a CSI):

Hidden Content: show
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Hidden Content: show
Image



I suppose this is why e44, like the rest of his FOA pals, is, evidently, COMPLETELY unable to address Dr. Balding’s assertions re DNA “contamination” (not only routine at crime scenes but easily accounted for by his mathematical analysis):



[Oh, Wise One: How does the passage of 46 days and a displacement of just 39 inches magically ‘create’ RS’s full autosomal profile on the clasp? If you answer 'passive, tertiary transfer of touch DNA by sloppy police', then why wasn’t AK’s DNA also dragged onto the clasp? (after all, she LIVED there whereas RS only entered the cottage twice, briefly - surely her DNA was more likely to be lying around, just waiting to be tracked into the murder room by 'stupid police' ... just how unlucky is Solly the Blade?!) - indeed, if tertiary transfer of touch DNA happened so readily in his case, why was none of his DNA found on the floors, seats, seat levers and belts of his own car (which, unlike the cottage, I assume he’d entered more than twice)?!]

And then there is this third example:

Hidden Content: show
Image


I find this post of e44’s VERY puzzling for 4 reasons in particular:

1) Why would a lawyer, esp. a HARVARD lawyer, want to see people tried in the media on the basis of '7 second soundbites' offered by publicity-seeking consultants-for-hire who are spewing opinions that are NOT TESTED by way of cross-examination in a court of law (esp. in cases where the consultant was approached by the defendant's family)?!

2) Why would a lawyer, esp. a HARVARD lawyer, be so (seemingly) blind to the incentives facing ‘experts'-for-hire - does he not see why consultants would be very, very keen to offer biased, pro-defense commentary as a means of becoming a 'go-to spokesperson' for a high profile defendant's media campaign and, thereby, securing a small fortune in terms of free advertising of their name and services to a wide TV audience, and/or much-needed funding for, I dunno … say, a sleepy innocence project that isn’t achieving much in its own state?!

3) Why would a lawyer, esp. a HARVARD lawyer, expect to see ANY unsolicited, pro-prosecution commentary from 'expert’ guns-for-hire in the media given that, in almost any jurisdiction you can name, police and prosecutors are (unlike many defendants) prohibited by statutes from sharing the contents of investigatory files with 3rd parties?! (The $750 million defamation suit filed against Jimmy "I don't need to read the court documents" Clemente and his CBS friends is another clue as to why you don't tend to see a lot of 'experts' lining up to take shots at suspects/ accused.)

4) Why would a lawyer, esp. a HARVARD lawyer, simply assume that a defendant who is releasing (legally or otherwise) some of the contents of the police investigatory file to 3rd parties is not being very, very selective about what, exactly, is released and how, exactly, it is to be presented to the media?! (Does he ever ask himself what might be withheld by a self-serving defendant???)

And, finally, in terms of e44's conception of the BARD standard, read this example of his and ask yourself if it doesn't paint you into the 'absolute certainty corner'! ;-)

Image

Why would a lawyer, esp. a HARVARD lawyer, construe the BARD standard as something akin to 'absolute certainty' (would you want anything less than ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY when it comes to the health of YOUR YOUNG CHILD)?!

I'm sure e44 knows (knew?) this but it seems a refresher might do some good - In Victor v. Nebraska (92-8894), 511 U.S. 1 (1994), the Supreme Court noted that:
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
"The beyond a reasonable doubt standard is itself probabilistic."

Accordingly, the Court endorsed a jury instruction on the nature of the BARD standard that reads as follows:

"..absolute or mathematical certainty is not required.

You may be convinced of the truth of a fact beyond a reasonable doubt and yet be fully aware that possibly you may be mistaken. (Yo! e44! Who, other than Casey Anthony, would accept ANY possibility of being MISTAKEN when their YOUNG child is facing RABIES??????????!!!)

You may find an accused guilty upon the strong probabilities of the case, provided such probabilities are strong enough to exclude any doubt of his guilt that is reasonable.

A reasonable doubt is an actual and substantial doubt arising from the evidence, from the facts or circumstances shown by the evidence, or from the lack of evidence on the part of the state, as distinguished from a doubt arising from mere possibility [(think C+V's "anything is possible" testimony)], from bare imagination, or from fanciful conjecture."
_________________________________________________________________________________________

Alas, it seems that, like Hellmann and Marasca, e44 may - may - be falling into a double error: applying too strict a standard while, at one and the same time, applying it to one particular element of the evidence at a time, viewing it in isolation, divorced from the larger context in which it occurs, and discarding it as insufficient if it cannot prove guilt to an absolute certainty when standing alone.

He does not seem willing to consider 'each piece in relation to the whole’ (for example, what are the chances that RS’s FULL autosomal DNA profile got onto the clasp by way of a lower probability tertiary transfer (via sloppy police), rather than a higher probability primary or secondary transfer (via murder and/or staging), given that AK and RS also lied to police, and that AK was “indisputably present” during the murder, and C, and D, and E…and Z?)

(C…Z would cover, for example, everything from anatomical compatibility on bathmat print and luminol hit in hall (to the point of “probable identity”) to eye witness testimony - this may be the reason Marasca looks like he has a heavy heart as he reflects on the acquittal ruling in the France 2 piece … he certainly doesn’t look happy.)

I seem to recall reading that e44 once claimed he studied under Prof. Dershowitz - I have to say that, at this point, I find the professor more persuasive than the student (but I remain completely open to smart, honest people selling smart, honest ideas with logic, reason and common sense -I want to figure this one out).

Which reminds me - this one is for the ISF's bagel-brain (always in search of PGP-supporting legal experts and PGP-supporting forensic experts) - top these two, bagel boy:Image


Last edited by Jackie on Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:39 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Offline jape


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:17 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Leaving C and V's witterings about ambient dust and lab contamination aside, the only seemingly plausible explanation for contamination of the bra clasp specimen 165B is that proffered by Peter Gill.

I have inserted my own musings on this into "Justice on Trial" as below.

"In addition the recourse quoted extracts from articles written by Peter Gill (whom we can recall was mentioned by Berti and Barni as a leading expert in the field of DNA analysis, with particular reference to the statistical interpretation model he had helped to develop and propagate) as to the likelihood of tertiary transfer contamination.

Quite how Bongiorno thought she could get away with trying to introduce evidence in this manner, from an expert who had not given evidence in chief and hence had not submitted to cross-examination at any stage, and indeed after the evidence phase was well and truly over, rather beggars belief.

Gill, indeed, had appeared on Italian TV to discuss the case, the Porta a Porta programme, with Sollecito and his father pending the final appeal to the Supreme Court. Despite his reputation Gill’s hypotheses as to contamination, also mentioned in his book “Misleading DNA Evidence : reasons for miscarriages of justice”, had, and he should have known it, no objective corroboration in the case papers.

Nevertheless it is instructive to consider Gill’s main hypothesis, introduced at this late stage in the proceedings. The hypothesis is that Sollecito grasped the door handle to Meredith’s bedroom before, as he says, trying to force the door. In doing so, he would have left his DNA on the handle and the investigators may have subsequently touched the handle, picking up his DNA and transferring it to the hooks on the bra clasp. Although there is no evidence at all for the door handle being touched by Sollecito or any forensic worker, in the case papers, or in the video of the forensic investigation, nevertheless perhaps we should consider the possibilty that Sollecito had done so, as on a presumption of innocence it is not an entirely unreasonable supposition. We then have to consider the likelihood that his DNA was then transferred to the hooks.

We have to remember that the door was forced open by Altieri. It was damaged in the process, the locking mechanism being broken. This was around 1 pm on the 2nd November. The bra clasp lay under a pillow beneath Meredith’s body which was not moved until Dr Lalli was allowed access after midnight. After that a forensic worker had noticed it under the pillow. It was photographed in situ and catalogued. Incidently, even in the photograph in situ, one of the hooks is shown as having been bent.

Gill’s hypothesis, as to tertiary transfer, although he misleadingly refers to it as secondary transfer, only begins to work on the assumption that one of the forensic workers had touched the outside door handle and then the hooks on the clasp, and without at any time changing gloves in between. We must, therefore, assume a lack of professionalism or at least a degree of carelessness on the part of the forensic workers.

Yet the investigators, we know, failed to collect the clasp, an omission that can only reasonably be explained by it having become hidden, and indeed it was subsequently found under a rug.

However, having been forced open, the door appears to have remained more or less wide open, maintaining easy access in and out of the room for the operatives without it having to be touched. That said maybe it was touched by someone. It was dusted for fingerprints. It does appear to have moved marginally (compare the photographs in Chapter 14), perhaps the better to photograph the blood on the indoor handle and of course Knox’s lamp, behind the door, would have been of interest. None of these particular operatives are likely to have then touched the bra clasp and, of course there is only the theoretical possibility that they had touched the handle. Nevertheless they might have done so and then touched something else in the room, for someone else to touch. We would then have moved to a 5 step transfer of DNA for accidental contamination of the hooks on the bra clasp, many hours after Sollecito theoretically deposited his DNA on the handle.

Do we have anything here that works as a reasonable proposition compared to primary transfer, given Meredith’s state of undress, an obvious sexual assault, severance of the clasp from the bra, and the condition of the hooks as they were found? After at least about 7 hours (up to the arrival of the forensic team) would not the alleged substance on the door handle have become less amenable for touch transfer and, as to tertiary transfer, would not the worker, in the five or so additional hours between the arrival of the forensic team from Rome and the discovery of the bra clasp underneath Meredith’s body, or even later, depending on when it was handled, if it was, prior to collection, have touched, and, we have to assume, without at any time changing gloves, other items of interest in the room, on which there was no DNA, transferring DNA precisely on to the hooks, but not the fabric to which the hooks were attached?

Of course we also have to consider whether the transfer could have occurred when the clasp was collected, 46 days after it had first been noticed. The same points as above apply, but with the delay being in itself an additional problem for the postulated transfer, and, of course, the exercise was all recorded on video, there being no discernable pressure on or manipulation of the hooks by the operatives that the viewer can see.

But if the hypothesis works for Sollecito, then what about others who may have touched the handle around about the same time as Sollecito? Would not the door only be forced once it was established that it was indeed locked? So Altieri, or any of the other witnesses present on that morning might have grasped the handle to test the door, and all of them after Sollecito would have done so. However there are only two profiles on the bra clasp – Meredith’s and Sollecito’s.

Gill’s hypothesis has little merit. It is highly speculative compared with the more obvious alternative.

Another subsidiary hypothesis of his in his book involves a misrepresentation of fact. Neverthelss it seems to have been picked up on and approved by the 5th Chambers. In his book Gill writes that the knife was placed, uncovered, in a “shoebox” by the police and despatched to Rome. The knife could thus have been contaminated by DNA already in the box. As we already know it was not a shoebox, let alone a box that had any connection with Meredith and the cottage.

Gill’s book would be better entitled “DNA Evidence: Misleading Reasons for a Miscarriage of Justice”."
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:40 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

jape wrote:
Gill’s book would be better entitled “DNA Evidence: Misleading Reasons for a Miscarriage of Justice”."

Apt title, jape. He actually inferred in a BBC interview the shoebox belonged to Meredith (and BBC had to correct its transcript when contacted).
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:52 am   Post subject: Re: e44 and the specter of AK's "indisputable presence"   

Jackie wrote:


[Oh, Wise One: How does the passage of 46 days and a displacement of just 39 inches magically ‘create’ RS’s full autosomal profile on the clasp? If you answer 'passive, tertiary transfer of touch DNA by sloppy police', then why wasn’t AK’s DNA also dragged onto the clasp? (after all, she LIVED there whereas RS only entered the cottage twice, briefly - surely her DNA was more likely to be lying around, just waiting to be tracked into the murder room by 'stupid police' ... just how unlucky is Solly the Blade?!) - indeed, if tertiary transfer of touch DNA happened so readily in his case, why was none of his DNA found on the floors, seats, seat levers and belts of his own car (which, unlike the cottage, I assume he’d entered more than twice)?!]

I seem to recall reading that e44 once claimed he studied under Prof. Dershowitz - I have to say that, at this point, I find the professor more persuasive than the student (but I remain completely open to smart, honest people selling smart, honest ideas with logic, reason and common sense - I want to figure this one out).

Which reminds me - this one is for the ISF's bagel-brain (always in search of PGP-supporting legal experts and PGP-supporting forensic experts) - top these two, bagel boy:Image

Me too, Jackie, and I have wandered over there once in a while to correct some way out of line stuff but get waylaid by questions why the PGP support John Kercher's 'mistruths' in his book when the courts "prove" otherwise and other questions of the 0 and 12th kind sur-)
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Offline hugo


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:36 pm   Post subject: Re: e44 and the specter of AK's "indisputable presence"   

Jackie wrote:
[

Route E44: The path to enlightenment or the road to ruin?
Image



How 'Erasmus 44' can fail to know that the state does not enlist hired-gun 'experts' to speak out of court, in books, articles and TV interviews, and that only the defence does this, in certain big-ticket cases, I can't imagine. How 'Erasmus' can ignore the views of Professor Balding, I can't imagine either.

Not long ago 'Erasmus' was in Perugia on holiday, and happened across Dr Mignini in the street, and told his fellow IIP groupies that 'this would have been a great time to have a Boston Cream Pie handy'. The guy's in Italy, under Italian jurisdiction, and he thinks it might be amusing to cream-pie an Italian prosecutor in the face for daring to charge a white blue-eyed American with the murder of a mere mixed-race Briton. He actually thinks that's big and clever.


Maybe, in his retirement, he should stick to stand-up.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6ahSV76aRo


Then again, maybe not.


Last edited by hugo on Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Sallyoo


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:50 pm   Post subject: Re: AMANDA KNOX DOCUMENTARY REVIEW   

Ergon wrote:
It was a total waste of time. No sub titles, too many voice overs in French making the Italians sound like they'd sniffed helium. On the one hand this, on the other hand that, very French. The portentous music and bad camera work and lighting, took 1:28 hrs. to get to Hellmann, ignored Nencini, then zoomed to the acquittal in 4 minutes. It was like a really bad clone of the Netflix documentary, TBH.


I think this is a very harsh critique of the recent documentary from France 2 (jackie's youtube link). In my opinion it is pretty thorough and yes, it gave air time to the defence as well as to the prosecutors, and had far too much of the bleater, but there wasn't much of vital importance IMO which was missed out.

I would have liked them to have more clearly demolished the 'non alibi' (failed, according to the Marasca Bruno judgement), and I would have not lingered so long on Lumumba (who even in French wasn't very lucid). The 'dramatic' 1/4 profile shots introducing Maresca (and some other protagonist) were indeed pretty naff, (but I didn't notice the music!)

I was confused by the use of the 'generic' apartment and knife images - France 2 did use some authentic crime scene video and photographs - but to add in this 'stock' video seemed a peculiar choice to make. They did have some good genuine video (probably from their own archives) of the candlelit commemoration of Meredith, an also of the near riot following the Hellman verdict.

Overall, I think the France 2 film deserves the description 'documentary', (which is not what I would say for the Netflix offering).
Maybe someone will subtitle it into English, which would make it more accessible, but kudos to the producer/director for collecting interviews with so many major players (from both sides).
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Today's news:

Genoa, April 11, 16:02

Sollecito sues judges
He asks three million for "responsibility" of judges

Sollecito [...]"now presents the bill to the judges: three million."[...]

Sollecito had initiated a claim for unjust detention which in February was denied. He has now sued, under the law on civil liability of judges, nine magistrates, among them public prosecutors, investigating judge (GIP), justices of the Assize Court of Appeal [of Florence] asking for compensation for having misrepresented the facts. The procedure is in Genoa. Writes the Genoese edition of La Repubblica. The last word is up to the judge Pietro Spera to whom the case has been entrusted.


ANSA

Perugia, April 11, 17:12

Sollecito contests/challenges no to compensation for wrongful imprisonment
Lawyers demanding cancellation of the decision

As learned by ANSA, Sollecito's lawyers, Giulia Bongiorno and Luca Maori, seek an annulment of the decision of the Florentine judges. The date of the hearing in the Supreme Court has not yet been set. In their appeal, the lawyers of the young Apulian argued that the motivations (Motivazioni) for the rejection of the claim "resemble a sentence of conviction." "The judges - said the lawyers - have taken into account the arguments of the judgment of the Court of Appeal of Florence which convicted Sollecito and Knox, not however those of the Supreme Court which acquitted them permanently pointing out errors in the investigation."


ANSA

------------------------------------

As I said before, Sollecito & Co. would try anything to get their hands on money. His tactics and lawsuit will fail, and he will be ordered to pay civil court costs and the other party's legal expenses. Good luck with that. ;)
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hi, guermantes, interesting how Sollecito always appears on TV the day before he files another law suit :)

He also moved recently to Parma, to be able to file in the more legally friendly environs there I imagine.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Excerpt from an article in La Repubblica (Genoa):

Local jurisdiction in Genoa. "They were wrong, and they ruined my life, now got to pay" (VIDEO, new PHOTOS)
By Marco Preve

No one knew that he had sued, based on the new law on civil liability of judges, nine of public and state prosecutors, preliminary investigation judges and judges of the Court of Assizes [of Perugia] and the Assize Court of Appeal [of Florence] asking for compensation - we are talking about a figure of around three million - for having misrepresented the facts, circumstances and evidence relating to the murder of Meredith Kercher.

The case is based in the Ligurian capital because the last judges to have convicted Sollecito are those of the Court of Appeal of Florence, and, for processes involving Tuscan magistrates, the competent court/tribunal is that of Genoa.

The Civil Liability Act (Law) specifies the grounds "for willful misconduct or gross negligence (grave error)" [of judges]. Only in the second case, the [popular] jurors/judges involved [in Sollecito's conviction(s)] will also be cited (subpoenaed). But the last word is up to the judge Pietro Spera to whom the case has been entrusted. Today, he will have to decide whether to engage in the lawsuit also the 12 jurors of the Court of Assizes of Perugia and those of the Court of Assizes of Appeal of Florence.

Formally, in the courtroom, has been cited "Presidenza del Consiglio" (?) on behalf of the judges. To defend it will be the State Attorney Giuseppe Novaresi. If convicted, the State, after paying compensation, will seek redress in turn against individual PMs, investigating judges (GIPs) and [other] judges cited.

Among the main targets of Sollecito is Perugian prosecutor Giuliano Mignini who led the investigation.


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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:12 am   Post subject: More Anti-Solly Commentary in Italy   

Thanks, Guermantes!

To the extent that google translate can be trusted, and to the extent that the top rated comments can be said to reflect popular sentiment, it would seem that many people in Italy are NOT buying what Solly the Blade is selling (his revolting FB games didn't help him either):

"It has a nice little saying it does not convince anyone. He and his partner were there as he died murdered a girl. They never made clear and their history is still a dirty story, other than to denounce! The still respectability they lost altogether.
Condividi9 risponde241

_________________________

redwolf01
This man has never taught that a bell'oblìo in some cases is the best solution? Adhering to the news, it seems that at that juncture in the apartment there were the four in question. If only one is paying for the crime, and he with his better half fled to the former usa, you are free, give thanks and silence ...
Condividi4 risponde201

_________________________

I think that
What will determine the court called upon to judge the Presidency of the Council that, if convicted, will seek redress on individuals responsible, I do not think, in any case, it will serve to make it more acceptable Sollecito. To be unpleasant and repugnant has put much of his behavior from the written advice on fb and he considered mere "college prank!"


______________________________________

I guess the upside to all of these law suits and appeals will be giving at least one particularly sad, half-witted, gravy-sweating, booze hound something to do for the rest of his life from the comfort of his Cheetos-encrusted sofa.

It should also give .org, .net, IA & ISF a total of about 6 loyal posters well into the next decade.

However, I'm not sure I'll be one of them - I used to hold out hope that some of these actions would shed some light on what really happened in Perugia but I am growing very, very weary of this ongoing series of contradictory judgments filled with incredibly ornate but legally meaningless turns of phrase that simply do NOTHING to clarify the matters in issue.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:43 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

guermantes wrote:
Excerpt from an article in La Repubblica (Genoa):

Local jurisdiction in Genoa. "They were wrong, and they ruined my life, now got to pay" (VIDEO, new PHOTOS)
By Marco Preve

The Civil Liability Act (Law) specifies the grounds "for willful misconduct or gross negligence (grave error)" [of judges]. Only in the second case, the [popular] jurors/judges involved [in Sollecito's conviction(s)] will also be cited (subpoenaed). But the last word is up to the judge Pietro Spera to whom the case has been entrusted. Today, he will have to decide whether to engage in the lawsuit also the 12 jurors of the Court of Assizes of Perugia and those of the Court of Assizes of Appeal of Florence.

Formally, in the courtroom, has been cited "Pesidenza del Consiglio" (?) on behalf of the judges. To defend it will be the State Attorney Giuseppe Novaresi. If convicted, the State, after paying compensation, will seek redress in turn against individual PMs, investigating judges (GIPs) and [other] judges cited.

Among the main targets of Sollecito is Perugian prosecutor Giuliano Mignini who led the investigation.[/border]

Since every court has said he was at fault for lying, don't think this will turn out well for him, guermantes. He does whine a lot though.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:52 am   Post subject: Re: e44 and the specter of AK's "indisputable presence"   

hugo wrote:
Jackie wrote:
[

Route E44: The path to enlightenment or the road to ruin?
Image



How 'Erasmus 44' can fail to know that the state does not enlist hired-gun 'experts' to speak out of court, in books, articles and TV interviews, and that only the defence does this, in certain big-ticket cases, I can't imagine. How 'Erasmus' can ignore the views of Professor Balding, I can't imagine either.

Not long ago 'Erasmus' was in Perugia on holiday, and happened across Dr Mignini in the street, and told his fellow IIP groupies that 'this would have been a great time to have a Boston Cream Pie handy'. The guy's in Italy, under Italian jurisdiction, and he thinks it might be amusing to cream-pie an Italian prosecutor in the face for daring to charge a white blue-eyed American with the murder of a mere mixed-race Briton. He actually thinks that's big and clever.


Maybe, in his retirement, he should stick to stand-up.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6ahSV76aRo


Then again, maybe not.


LOL

Let's just say he's nowhere near the caliber of Harvard Law's most famous lawyer-turned-comic, Greg Giraldo (RIP) - now THAT was a (viciously) FUNNY guy! https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=561_1339137559
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2ne4rp

But, credit where it's due, e44's routine made me laugh more than a few times - his little fixation with "jerking off in elevators" was a bit of a shock! ;-)

In any event, I have no doubt he could defend his views if he were to drop by, but I get the sense that he's a bit of a team player (as in Team FOA) and more than a little burned out on talking typing about this case.

I just can't figure out why he's hanging with that weird little group of furriers, fugitives, fraud artists and fat housewives when someone with his credentials could be volunteering at a real innocence project ...


Last edited by Jackie on Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:28 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:08 am   Post subject: Re: e44 and the specter of AK's "indisputable presence"   

Ergon wrote:
Me too, Jackie, and I have wandered over there once in a while to correct some way out of line stuff but get waylaid by questions why the PGP support John Kercher's 'mistruths' in his book when the courts "prove" otherwise and other questions of the 0 and 12th kind sur-)


I'm glad to see you giving poor ol' Vixen some support over there - the Old Men Who Love Knox are not very genteel (I don't always agree with her views but I admire her willingness to take on the 'useful idiots' spawned in the wake of the lies spewed by Marriott & Friends long ago).

Alas, one minute the PIP are citing court findings as 'proof', the next they are calling the courts a joke.

In this regard, they have something in common with the PGP ;-)

The Italian courts have served up such a confusing morass of contradictory findings and rulings that there's something for everyone to love and something for everyone to hate.

It would be funny were it not for the fact that a grave injustice has been done - I just don't yet know what kind of injustice I'm looking at: a wrongful acquittal or a wrongful prosecution/ conviction ...
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:04 am   Post subject: Re: AMANDA KNOX DOCUMENTARY REVIEW   

Sallyoo wrote:
Ergon wrote:
It was a total waste of time. No sub titles, too many voice overs in French making the Italians sound like they'd sniffed helium. On the one hand this, on the other hand that, very French. The portentous music and bad camera work and lighting, took 1:28 hrs. to get to Hellmann, ignored Nencini, then zoomed to the acquittal in 4 minutes. It was like a really bad clone of the Netflix documentary, TBH.


I think this is a very harsh critique of the recent documentary from France 2 (jackie's youtube link). In my opinion it is pretty thorough and yes, it gave air time to the defence as well as to the prosecutors, and had far too much of the bleater, but there wasn't much of vital importance IMO which was missed out.

I would have liked them to have more clearly demolished the 'non alibi' (failed, according to the Marasca Bruno judgement), and I would have not lingered so long on Lumumba (who even in French wasn't very lucid). The 'dramatic' 1/4 profile shots introducing Maresca (and some other protagonist) were indeed pretty naff, (but I didn't notice the music!)

I was confused by the use of the 'generic' apartment and knife images - France 2 did use some authentic crime scene video and photographs - but to add in this 'stock' video seemed a peculiar choice to make. They did have some good genuine video (probably from their own archives) of the candlelit commemoration of Meredith, an also of the near riot following the Hellman verdict.

Overall, I think the France 2 film deserves the description 'documentary', (which is not what I would say for the Netflix offering).
Maybe someone will subtitle it into English, which would make it more accessible, but kudos to the producer/director for collecting interviews with so many major players (from both sides).



I thought it was fitting to have the final interview go to (a rather troubled-looking) Marasca, and our friend "Soulmate" was kind enough to post this translation on .org today:

Soulmate wrote:

Im looking at the documentary posted by Jackie.
The final words of Marasca are enigmatic. His decision is "firm from a legal point of view but...as a citizen, he does not know."

The very final words of the lady commentator was, Guide is the murderer but he did not strike alone.


So, as Hugo put it, not exactly a ringing endorsement from the man who annulled the proceedings.

Just LOOK at the man's face (and his sigh) right after "he" says, "Je ne sais pas" (at 1:32:17).

Such an awful state of affairs ...


Last edited by Jackie on Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline jape


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

The final words of Marasca are enigmatic. His decision is "firm from a legal point of view but...as a citizen, he does not know."

"Firm from a legal point ot view" as in - "We had the last word and that's that, unless someone applies for judicial review before the Council of Magistrates, and seemingly no one wants to do that."

"Firm" as in - "just how firm we were is apparent from the host of dogmatic statements we made" - "dogmatic" meaning completely unsupported by rational argument, or in many cases any argument, and indeed in contravention of the rules of evidence.

What's "firm from a legal point of view" about flouting the Criminal Code of Practice rules as to the grounds for appeal to the Supreme Court, or acting completely outside their remit in determining the sufficiency of the evidence?

Has Marasca retired? If not he must be looking forward to the day.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

jape wrote:
The final words of Marasca are enigmatic. His decision is "firm from a legal point of view but...as a citizen, he does not know."

"Firm from a legal point ot view" as in - "We had the last word and that's that, unless someone applies for judicial review before the Council of Magistrates, and seemingly no one wants to do that."

"Firm" as in - "just how firm we were is apparent from the host of dogmatic statements we made" - "dogmatic" meaning completely unsupported by rational argument, or in many cases any argument, and indeed in contravention of the rules of evidence.

What's "firm from a legal point of view" about flouting the Criminal Code of Practice rules as to the grounds for appeal to the Supreme Court, or acting completely outside their remit in determining the sufficiency of the evidence?

Has Marasca retired? If not he must be looking forward to the day.

That is correct, jape, seemingly no one wanted to apply for judicial review before the Council of Magistrates.

Marasca retired shortly after the verdict, and Bruno became the chief of the 5th chambers (based on his seniority).
He did give an interview on March 30, 2015 Corriere Della Serra

explaining his reasoning, but the sigh, is probably because he got an earful from other judges.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:24 am   Post subject: weird new .org poster   

Who is "rocklee1957" over on .ORG? Am I really being stalked and threatened by Team Guede? ;-)

Maybe I should join the FOA for my own protection. They hate him and they claim to be good with guns.

But seriously, WHO is this "R.L."?

I've got a bad relapse of the flu this week (thanks, Delta Airlines Flt#666!) so I've been downing a lot of NyQuil and I'm not sure of anything right now ... ss-)
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:35 am   Post subject: Re: weird new .org poster   

Jackie wrote:
Who is "rocklee1957" over on .ORG? Am I really being stalked and threatened by Team Guede? ;-)

Maybe I should join the FOA for my own protection. They hate him and they claim to be good with guns.

But seriously, WHO is this "R.L."?

I've got a bad relapse of the flu this week (thanks, Delta Airlines Flt#666!) so I've been downing a lot of NyQuil and I'm not sure of anything right now ... ss-)

I wouldn't know what's happening at ORG, Jackie, so won't comment. Nothing to do with us here.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:25 am   Post subject: Re: weird new .org poster   

[quote="Ergon"]
Well, don't believe "Billy" the Liar, .ORG is still up and running, and has some interesting discussions going on (apart from Team Guede attacking me).

Why does Billy like to keep asserting it was shut down for legal reasons? It's been humming along and seems to have a lot more activity than the furrier's site (which, at this point, looks very nearly dead).

Billy really does seem to live in an imaginary world: he keeps asserting that PMF.org no longer exists, that Mach is the ONLY man in Italy who objects to the acquittal, that the Supreme Court did not affirm that Knox 'was there', that he's a 30-something hockey player, and, more recently, that he's a volunteer for the California Innocence Project:

Image

So ... now he's a young law student in California?! XD

Just for fun, I had a look at the CIP website, where they have a picture of each of the lawyers, assistants and law students volunteering there and, I can assure you, NONE of them look like this *** ****:
Hidden Content: show
Image

See for yourself (nothing but young people): https://californiainnocenceproject.org

What's going on here?! Is this more of his compulsive lying, is it the screech, a mental problem or ... were you guys wrong about him being a retired minister in Canada???
______________________________________________________________
...
______________________________________________________________

picture of a pumpkin
This Post has been edited by a Moderator
Details: Sorry, Jackie, but I can't comment on some thing happening on ORG nor should you be porting your conflict with him here-I make no judgement on either side, nor do I wish to-when it should be properly addressed by moderators there. Yes, he's a member here though he just wandered over, made a few comments then left. I do hear tales about how he's got ORG riled, but as long as he keeps it civil and within bounds here, not my concern.


My bad - I should have sent the deleted screenshot to you privately.

It's just I'm very concerned that the apparent threat might have been posted by someone in Italy that could very well be dangerous.


Last edited by Jackie on Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:17 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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Offline jape


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:08 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
guermantes wrote:
Excerpt from an article in La Repubblica (Genoa):

Local jurisdiction in Genoa. "They were wrong, and they ruined my life, now got to pay" (VIDEO, new PHOTOS)
By Marco Preve

The Civil Liability Act (Law) specifies the grounds "for willful misconduct or gross negligence (grave error)" [of judges]. Only in the second case, the [popular] jurors/judges involved [in Sollecito's conviction(s)] will also be cited (subpoenaed). But the last word is up to the judge Pietro Spera to whom the case has been entrusted. Today, he will have to decide whether to engage in the lawsuit also the 12 jurors of the Court of Assizes of Perugia and those of the Court of Assizes of Appeal of Florence.

Formally, in the courtroom, has been cited "Pesidenza del Consiglio" (?) on behalf of the judges. To defend it will be the State Attorney Giuseppe Novaresi. If convicted, the State, after paying compensation, will seek redress in turn against individual PMs, investigating judges (GIPs) and [other] judges cited.

Among the main targets of Sollecito is Perugian prosecutor Giuliano Mignini who led the investigation.[/border]


Since every court has said he was at fault for lying, don't think this will turn out well for him, guermantes. He does whine a lot though.


I thought Bongiorno said that the decision to deny compensation was going to be appealed. It seems not now given the above. Or are we going to have two cases trying to screw money from the State going on together?

The Sollecitos do seem to have more money than common sense, unless they have a backer without common sense as well.
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Offline Sallyoo


Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:20 pm

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

jape wrote:

I thought Bongiorno said that the decision to deny compensation was going to be appealed. It seems not now given the above. Or are we going to have two cases trying to screw money from the State going on together?

The Sollecitos do seem to have more money than common sense, unless they have a backer without common sense as well.


With the Sollecitos it's not "either/or" - it's BOTH! nin-)

They have appealed to the cassation court to get the Florence no-compensation ruling overturned
http://www.ansa.it/puglia/notizie/2017/ ... 98839.html

and they have also started proceedings to sue a sack load of judges (and, potentially lay judges) as reported by Guermantes et al earlier.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:06 pm   Post subject: THE TRIALS OF RAFFAELE SOLLECITO   

jape wrote:
Ergon wrote:
guermantes wrote:
Excerpt from an article in La Repubblica (Genoa):

Local jurisdiction in Genoa. "They were wrong, and they ruined my life, now got to pay" (VIDEO, new PHOTOS)
By Marco Preve

The Civil Liability Act (Law) specifies the grounds "for willful misconduct or gross negligence (grave error)" [of judges]. Only in the second case, the [popular] jurors/judges involved [in Sollecito's conviction(s)] will also be cited (subpoenaed). But the last word is up to the judge Pietro Spera to whom the case has been entrusted. Today, he will have to decide whether to engage in the lawsuit also the 12 jurors of the Court of Assizes of Perugia and those of the Court of Assizes of Appeal of Florence.

Formally, in the courtroom, has been cited "Pesidenza del Consiglio" (?) on behalf of the judges. To defend it will be the State Attorney Giuseppe Novaresi. If convicted, the State, after paying compensation, will seek redress in turn against individual PMs, investigating judges (GIPs) and [other] judges cited.

Among the main targets of Sollecito is Perugian prosecutor Giuliano Mignini who led the investigation.[/border]


Since every court has said he was at fault for lying, don't think this will turn out well for him, guermantes. He does whine a lot though.


I thought Bongiorno said that the decision to deny compensation was going to be appealed. It seems not now given the above. Or are we going to have two cases trying to screw money from the State going on together?

The Sollecitos do seem to have more money than common sense, unless they have a backer without common sense as well.

Hi, jape, the Sollecitos do have more money than sense, and Raffaele had his bank account enriched by the $975,000 advance from Simon and Schuster as well. The rest of the 'backing' is political, from the Berlusconi/Northern Alliance/Radical parties.

You now have two cases trying to screw the state over. Bongiorno announced she'd filed an appeal to the Supreme Court over the Florence rejection (Judge Bruno, presiding over 5th chambers?), and Sollecito and his er, other attorney Brizioli are carrying out the other suit in Genoa. Which he's entitled to do, based on the 1988 legislation (amended 2015) Italy: Civil Liability of Judges

Not known is who he's suing, exactly. The legislation applies to judges or magistrates. Is he suing the prosecutors and lay judges (jurors) at Massei as well? Or is it so many judges per trial, Massei, Chieffi, Nencini, Martuscelli?

Here's the 1988 Act

and the

2015 Act

This brings Italian Law into concordance with EU law, but the right to sue a judge was already established earlier. However, the burden of proving 'gross negligence' or 'fraud' rests on Sollecito, especially when there is a pretty high bar for 'judges exercising their normal duties'.

Also unclear how he added up $3millions for his claim. The law sets the penalty at 1/2 the annual salary of the judge, so with 12 charges=avg. salary of $500,000? OK then huh-)
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Offline Sallyoo


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:24 pm   Post subject: Re: THE TRIALS OF RAFFAELE SOLLECITO   

Ergon wrote:
jape wrote:
Ergon wrote:
guermantes wrote:
Excerpt from an article in La Repubblica (Genoa):

Local jurisdiction in Genoa. "They were wrong, and they ruined my life, now got to pay" (VIDEO, new PHOTOS)
By Marco Preve

The Civil Liability Act (Law) specifies the grounds "for willful misconduct or gross negligence (grave error)" [of judges]. Only in the second case, the [popular] jurors/judges involved [in Sollecito's conviction(s)] will also be cited (subpoenaed). But the last word is up to the judge Pietro Spera to whom the case has been entrusted. Today, he will have to decide whether to engage in the lawsuit also the 12 jurors of the Court of Assizes of Perugia and those of the Court of Assizes of Appeal of Florence.

Formally, in the courtroom, has been cited "Pesidenza del Consiglio" (?) on behalf of the judges. To defend it will be the State Attorney Giuseppe Novaresi. If convicted, the State, after paying compensation, will seek redress in turn against individual PMs, investigating judges (GIPs) and [other] judges cited.

Among the main targets of Sollecito is Perugian prosecutor Giuliano Mignini who led the investigation.[/border]


Since every court has said he was at fault for lying, don't think this will turn out well for him, guermantes. He does whine a lot though.


I thought Bongiorno said that the decision to deny compensation was going to be appealed. It seems not now given the above. Or are we going to have two cases trying to screw money from the State going on together?

The Sollecitos do seem to have more money than common sense, unless they have a backer without common sense as well.

Hi, jape, the Sollecitos do have more money than sense, and Raffaele had his bank account enriched by the $975,000 advance from Simon and Schuster as well. The rest of the 'backing' is political, from the Berlusconi/Northern Alliance/Radical parties.

You now have two cases trying to screw the state over. Bongiorno announced she'd filed an appeal to the Supreme Court over the Florence rejection (Judge Bruno, presiding over 5th chambers?), and Sollecito and his er, other attorney Brizioli are carrying out the other suit in Genoa. Which he's entitled to do, based on the 1988 legislation (amended 2015) Italy: Civil Liability of Judges

Not known is who he's suing, exactly. The legislation applies to judges or magistrates. Is he suing the prosecutors and lay judges (jurors) at Massei as well? Or is it so many judges per trial, Massei, Chieffi, Nencini, Martuscelli?

Here's the 1988 Act

and the

2015 Act

This brings Italian Law into concordance with EU law, but the right to sue a judge was already established earlier. However, the burden of proving 'gross negligence' or 'fraud' rests on Sollecito, especially when there is a pretty high bar for 'judges exercising their normal duties'.

Also unclear how he added up $3millions for his claim. The law sets the penalty at 1/2 the annual salary of the judge, so with 12 charges=avg. salary of $500,000? OK then huh-)


Ah, mention of Brizioli reminds me that Sollecito has (at least) THREE court cases/appeals ongoing.

Quite soon (I think later this month?) there is due another audience (or out of court settlement) in the case concerning the 'slander' in the Honor Bound book, and here Sollecito is being defended by Brizioli.

Then we have the recourse against the Florence 'no compensation' ruling, where Sollecito has Bongiorno on the team.

The cherry on the cake is the 'judge suing' adventure - but I cannot find any reference to who is working for Sollecito on this one. Ergon has credited Brizioli with this (hopefully) thankless task, but no press coverage mentions either his name, nor that of Bongiorno. So, who has he got?

Anyway - in the laRepubblica Genova story covering the judge suing, there is a video of the bleater, (with hopeless sound recording), but engagingly titled:
Dieci anni dopo Sollecito si racconta: "Servirebbe un film anche su di me. Rivoglio la mia vita"
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:42 pm   Post subject: Re: THE TRIALS OF RAFFAELE SOLLECITO   

Italian media reporting further on his civil suit Ansa Italia Cronaca

It's against the nine judges of the Florence Court of Appeals who denied him compensation but there was a hearing Tuesday-no news yet- to see if he can include 'procurator generals' (that would be Mignini) and the judges at the Massei and Nencini courts as well.

I believe, but could not confirm Brizioli was representing him. While Bongiorno did file an appeal to Cassazione it seemed like a hail Mary pass. My understanding is he must exhaust all avenues before going the civil route but also that if she had argued before the Genoa court it would be in the news.
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Offline Sallyoo


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I'm not quite wiling to accept some of what you say.

The recourse against the Florence judgement, which involved three judges, not nine, (awarding no compensation) has been lodged, by Bongiorno, with the cassation court, as is her right on behalf of her client. This is very straightforward in legal terms, and there is plenty of precedent, and no politicolegal downside for Bongiorno.

The completely different case lodged against the nine (so far) magistrates/judges, however, is relatively ground-breaking stuff. It would not have been possible to bring such a case before 2015/6. It's a dilemma for Bongiorno. Will she succumb to the temptation of the assured publicity resulting from her having a presence in this high profile novel case? Or will she decide that discretion is the better part of future fees, and that alienating the Italian judiciary will irretrievably damage her brand?

There is absolutely no 'legalistic' connection between these cases, (and the Honor Bound case is another entirely separate case), so the notion that 'avenues must be exhausted before proceeding' is nonsense.

Where are you getting your information from? It is garbled to say the least. The Italian press (ANSA and other solid sources) are hedging a bit on just how many judges (potentially also lay judges) might get 'sued'. This is responsible reporting - there has never before been even the possibility of bringing a case like this, and they are not speculating on which Sollecito advocate is going to stick his (or her) head above the parapet.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 2:10 am   Post subject: THE TRIALS OF RAFFAELE SOLLECITO   

Sallyoo wrote:
I'm not quite wiling to accept some of what you say.

The recourse against the Florence judgement, which involved three judges, not nine, (awarding no compensation) has been lodged, by Bongiorno, with the cassation court, as is her right on behalf of her client. This is very straightforward in legal terms, and there is plenty of precedent, and no politicolegal downside for Bongiorno.

The completely different case lodged against the nine (so far) magistrates/judges, however, is relatively ground-breaking stuff. It would not have been possible to bring such a case before 2015/6. It's a dilemma for Bongiorno. Will she succumb to the temptation of the assured publicity resulting from her having a presence in this high profile novel case? Or will she decide that discretion is the better part of future fees, and that alienating the Italian judiciary will irretrievably damage her brand?

There is absolutely no 'legalistic' connection between these cases, (and the Honor Bound case is another entirely separate case), so the notion that 'avenues must be exhausted before proceeding' is nonsense.

Where are you getting your information from? It is garbled to say the least. The Italian press (ANSA and other solid sources) are hedging a bit on just how many judges (potentially also lay judges) might get 'sued'. This is responsible reporting - there has never before been even the possibility of bringing a case like this, and they are not speculating on which Sollecito advocate is going to stick his (or her) head above the parapet.

Hi, Sallyoo,
I got the information from the 2015 Act, in my earlier post today. Maybe I didn't highlight the links properly? viewtopic.php?p=131951#p131951
The relevant articles here: http://www.normattiva.it/uri-res/N2Ls?u ... 5-02-27;18
Quote:
Note all'art. 3: Si riporta il testo dell'articolo 4 della citata legge 13 aprile 1988, n. 117, come modificato dalla presente legge: «Art. 4. Competenza e termini. - 1. L'azione di risarcimento del danno contro lo Stato deve essere esercitata nei confronti del Presidente del Consiglio dei Ministri. Competente e' il tribunale del capoluogo del distretto della corte d'appello, da determinarsi a norma dell'articolo 11 del codice di procedura penale e dell'articolo 1 delle norme di attuazione, di coordinamento e transitorie del codice di procedura penale, approvate con decreto legislativo 28 luglio 1989, n. 271. 2. L'azione di risarcimento del danno contro lo Stato puo' essere esercitata soltanto quando siano stati esperiti i mezzi ordinari di impugnazione o gli altri rimedi previsti avverso i provvedimenti cautelari e sommari, e comunque quando non siano piu' possibili la modifica o la revoca del provvedimento ovvero, se tali rimedi non sono previsti, quando sia esaurito il grado del procedimento nell'ambito del quale si e' verificato il fatto che ha cagionato il danno. La domanda deve essere proposta a pena di decadenza entro tre anni che decorrono dal momento in cui l'azione e' esperibile. 3. L'azione puo' essere esercitata decorsi tre anni dalla data del fatto che ha cagionato il danno se in tal termine non si e' concluso il grado del procedimento nell'ambito del quale il fatto stesso si e' verificato. 4. Nei casi previsti dall'art. 3 l'azione deve essere promossa entro tre anni dalla scadenza del termine entro il quale il magistrato avrebbe dovuto provvedere sull'istanza. 5. In nessun caso il termine decorre nei confronti della parte che, a causa del segreto istruttorio, non abbia avuto conoscenza del fatto.».

Notes to art. 3: The text of Article 4 of the abovementioned law of 13 April 1988, no. 117 as amended by this law: "Art. 4. Competence and terms. - 1. The action for damages against the State must be exercised against the President of the Council of Ministers. Competent is the district court of the district court of appeal, to be determined in accordance with Article 11 of the Code of Criminal Procedure and Article 1 of the Implementation, Coordination and Transitional Rules of Criminal Procedure Code, approved by Legislative Decree no. 271. 2. The action for compensation of damage to the State may only be exercised when the ordinary means of appeals or other remedies provided for in the precautionary and summary measures have been exhausted and whenever the modification is no longer possible Or the revocation of the measure or, if such remedies are not provided, when the degree of the proceeding has been exhausted in the course of which it is established that the damage was caused. The application must be filed for a decade within three years from the time the action is probable. 3. The action may be exercised three years after the date on which the damage occurred if, in that period, the degree of the proceedings in which the matter has occurred has not been completed. 4. In the cases provided for by art. 3 the action must be promoted within three years of the expiration of the term within which the magistrate should have acted on the case. 5. In no case shall the time be commenced in respect of the party who, due to the secretary's inquiry, did not know the fact.

So, since the ordinary means of appeal for compensation were not exhausted?

Here, in Art. 1,
Quote:
Oggetto e finalita' 1. La presente legge introduce disposizioni volte a modificare le norme di cui alla legge 13 aprile 1988, n. 117, al fine di rendere effettiva la disciplina che regola la responsabilita' civile dello Stato e dei magistrati, anche alla luce dell'appartenenza dell'Italia all'Unione europea.

Subject matter and purpose 1. This Act introduces provisions to amend the provisions of Law 13 April 1988, no. 117, in order to enforce the discipline regulating the civil liability of the State and magistrates, also in the light of Italy's membership of the European Union.

so yes, I am surprised he tried to include the procurator general in this, or that Bongiorno might be involved, but you never know.

I do know from Art. 4 that popular judges can also be held liable
Quote:
Art. 4 Modifica dell'articolo 7 della legge 13 aprile 1988, n. 117 1. L'articolo 7 della legge 13 aprile 1988, n. 117, e' sostituito dal seguente: «Art. 7. - (Azione di rivalsa). - 1. Il Presidente del Consiglio dei ministri, entro due anni dal risarcimento avvenuto sulla base di titolo giudiziale o di titolo stragiudiziale, ha l'obbligo di esercitare l'azione di rivalsa nei confronti del magistrato nel caso di diniego di giustizia, ovvero nei casi in cui la violazione manifesta della legge nonche' del diritto dell'Unione europea ovvero il travisamento del fatto o delle prove, di cui all'articolo 2, commi 2, 3 e 3-bis, sono stati determinati da dolo o negligenza inescusabile. 2. In nessun caso la transazione e' opponibile al magistrato nel giudizio di rivalsa o nel giudizio disciplinare. 3. I giudici popolari rispondono soltanto in caso di dolo. I cittadini estranei alla magistratura che concorrono a formare o formano organi giudiziari collegiali rispondono in caso di dolo o negligenza inescusabile per travisamento del fatto o delle prove».

but didn't know where he got the number of 12 judges to sue (Times of London article) and since no information was given out :)

But yes, I did wonder how he got the figure of 3 million euros since, the legislation states compensation is limited to half the magistrates annual salary, net of deductions, unless fraud is involved. Does Sollecito (or Bongiorno) really want to go there?
Quote:
Modifica all'articolo 8 della legge 13 aprile 1988, n. 117 1. All'articolo 8 della legge 13 aprile 1988, n. 117, il comma 3 e' sostituito dal seguente: «3. La misura della rivalsa non puo' superare una somma pari alla meta' di una annualita' dello stipendio, al netto delle trattenute fiscali, percepito dal magistrato al tempo in cui l'azione di risarcimento e' proposta, anche se dal fatto e' derivato danno a piu' persone e queste hanno agito con distinte azioni di responsabilita'. Tale limite non si applica al fatto commesso con dolo. L'esecuzione della rivalsa, quando viene effettuata mediante trattenuta sullo stipendio, non puo' comportare complessivamente il pagamento per rate mensili in misura superiore ad un terzo dello stipendio netto».

Anyhow, those were the questions I asked, since the Italian papers weren't clear. Could be wrong, of course, but the legislation seemed straightforward. All available means must be exhausted, before you can go further.

ETA: On reflection, it may be that Art. 3 applies to the definitive acquittal, and not, ongoing suit for compensation. Again, I would be surprised you can sue the state twice, concurrently, but if it proves to be the case, I stand corrected.
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Offline Sallyoo


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 1:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I now see where you are coming from, but it still appears to me that the compensation for unjust imprisonment case is quite separate from the application under Legge 27 (accusing the various magistrates of wilful misconduct or gross negligence). (I've called it an 'application' because we don't have much information about this 'case'.)

The 'unjust imprisonment' compensation case wasn't brought using Legge 27. It was heard in Florence, Tuscany (in the district of the last impugned judgement), under an article of the cpp. This case is appealed, and the court of cassation will have the final word, but I can't see anything in the 'all means to be exhausted' clause in Legge 18 of 27 Feb 2015 which insists that this case is finalised before starting the judge suing case.

The potential forthcoming Legge 18 case will be determined in Genova, Liguria, because the case must be heard in a district neighbouring that in which the 'magistrates' are accused of misbehaving.

The only mention of Brizioli in connection with this issue which I have been able to track down comes from a post on the ISP. I have been unable to find anything at all to support the notion that the Florence judges who denied the compensation claim are 'in the frame' for being sued.

I could, of course, be wrong - but it looks pretty straightforward to me!

(Bits in red are an edit, correcting the number of the law involved. Ergon posted accurate links (above) to the correct law, I just misread the number.)


Last edited by Sallyoo on Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline jamie


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:52 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Sollecito is undergoing a mental breakdown. Bongiorno has submitted the standard automatic appeal to cassazione in the compensation case.

It's no surprise she has steered well clear of the ill considered writ at Genoa.

Once it is rejected, as it surely will be as none of the judges or prosecutors have faced any complaints against them, which would be the first port of call, where can he turn? What is Sollecito faced with, but another long struggle with appeals.

He is under great mental strain from realising the acquittal is not the happy ending he thought it would be when he went cap in hand to the Florence court. It's a shock to him that he is not viewed as exonerated or even innocent, compared to someone who has never been to trial or one found a simple, 'not guilty'.

Brizioli who is representling him in the Gumbel case appears to be responsible for filing the Genoa papers. His reputation came under a negative spotlight in the Monster of Florence case where he locked horns ferociously with Mignini.

It could be Brizioli taking on the writ is Brizioli seizing the opportunity to clash with Mignini again and this time get the better of him. Revenge is never a good motive for going to court. Brizioli will be in line for a scathing dressing down from the Genoa court for his poor and rash advice to his client.

Sollecito will either implode and end up self-medicating or worse, or explode and end up in a psychiatric ward or jail.

It's as though he wants the truth to come out, as it would be a massive relief not to carry the burden of the enormity of what he did. His family know he did it. You can imagine the great sense of shame Sollecito feels about this knowledge, even if he has no remorse at all for his heinous acts.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:53 am   Post subject: fit as a fiddle   

jamie wrote:
Sollecito is undergoing a mental breakdown.


C'mon, Jamie, he's perfectly normal!

Doesn't EVERYONE pose for pics with their fave knives and join 'He-Man-Women-Stabbers Clubs' (or whatever) on Facebook? :roll:

ImageImage

___________________________

PS Just a quick shout out to the "California Innocence Project's" newest law student volunteer, Lyin' Bill "What's a loci [sic]?" Williams! (You may not be on the CIP website yet, but if scientific illiteracy, lying, swearing and calling people names has anything to do with it, you'll be great, young fella! Stay Classy!)

Image

( "we"? "our"? "work"? drin-)? I fail to see how 5 old men using their nights and days to gang-mock one, lone woman on the ISF Knox thread could be reasonably construed as doing any useful "work" in a noble "mission" that meets the ends of Justice)
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Vixen handles herself very well, Jackie. Just started a new thread discussing the Huddersfield University paper on the Psychology Of Trolls. Trolls then descend :)
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

The next Sollecito-Gumbel hearing is scheduled for April 28.
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Offline jamie


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Sollecito's lawyer for the suit against the judges is named as Antonio Valerio Ciccariello.

http://ildubbio.news/ildubbio/2017/04/1 ... sollecito/
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Offline corpusvile


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:29 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

He gets a mention in a book about the case Jamie, not sure what stance the book takes as it's in Italian.
https://books.google.ie/books?id=FArHBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA20&lpg=PA20&dq=Antonio+Valerio+Ciccariello&source=bl&ots=02NOoK9NLP&sig=P0LpG4LzfHlw2nxpeTNKHtnhGYk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwic2qGA9rLTAhXsIMAKHV05DgoQ6AEIJDAB#v=onepage&q=Antonio%20Valerio%20Ciccariello&f=false

His office is based in the picturesque, sleepy, quiet and most of all low crime city of erm, Napoli, known for its rubbish strikes & some legitimate businessman's group called the Camorra.
http://www.paginebianche.it/napoli/studio-legale-ciccariello-avv-ti-gaetano-valerio-p.1870325

Like Carlo Della Vedova's firm, Signor Ciccariello appears to be in a family based business, assuming he's the same bloke. Wonder if he knows Briziolli.
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Offline Sallyoo


Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:20 pm

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:45 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Oh well found, jamie. Some more names to 'Google' for updates!
I think you'll find there are actually two Ciccariello advocates named in your article, Antonio, and Valerio. It looks as if those names came from the horse's mouth, so to speak, so they should be correct. They both seem to share a fancy address in the centre of Naples with avv. Gaetano Ciccariello. (There also seems to be a Fabio Ciccariello, who is an avvocato in Bari).
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Offline Fast Pete


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Monday - thanks, we know TJMK is down.

The latest PHP version the hosts offer for this server (5.6) has dropped some functions our version of software has used since 2008.

Need to either wind us back to an older PHP or upgrade the software - erk! We'll see.
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Offline ttrroonniicc


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:59 am   Post subject: Re: fit as a fiddle   



was thinking that the knife impression on the pillow .. somealibi matched to the "brian tighe", expensive 'designer' knife sollecito carried. According to photo ^, it's the dimension of the kitchen knife.

Impression was the kitchen knife. Sollecito kept hold of his knife (could have been the one he carried into the 'questura' (police station) .. he carried it out of the house as he injured guede with it (re: german police photos of defensive wounds on guedes fingers).

I think the kitchen knife was from the cottage .. it's too cheap for sollecito, within his serviced apartment .. but knox did carry it back to his apartment. Guede took the phones, she took the knife. He used bleach to clean it .. he then broke the waste pipe as in his stoned paranoia, he was worried about blood traces down into the outflow. Story of the mop/flooding/wastepipe partially true. Their stories are fragments of each others experience (which wasn't much). That 'flooding' was in the morning; they had argued, then she was wandering around perugia in the morning, alone.

wrapping of text within pages doesn't appear to work (re: 'PHP')
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Offline ttrroonniicc


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:25 am   Post subject: Re: THE PSYCHOLOGY OF A TROLL   

Ergon wrote:
A recent Washington Post article How researchers tried to understand one of Twitter’s oldest trolling groups caught my eye hbc)
Abby Olheiser
March 2
Quote:
Three-year-old Madeline McCann disappeared from a resort apartment in Portugal in 2007 while on a family vacation. Her British parents were dining nearby. The McCann disappearance, which has never been resolved, became a major British tabloid story. The daily media frenzy has since faded, but a decade later, a tight-knit group of Twitter trolls who are convinced that they have proven the McCann parents’ guilt in their daughter’s disappearance still discuss the case online every single day.

Gerald mccann received news about a judgement from portugal that went against them .. He railed about "twitter trolls". Sky news decided to "expose" one. Reporter Martin Brunt doorstepped 'Brenda Leyland', who they'd tracked down , through twitter- accused her of attacking the McCanns. All tweets were retrieved - she hadn't been attacking the McCanns, she'd been discussing, endlessly analysing the case (another 'whodunnit' with untied threads). Brunt 'exposed' Brenda Leyland by doorstepping her in her small village situation. She found herself all over Sky news, portrayed as this vicious troll, attacking the righteous couple. Brenda Leyland booked herself into a hotel & suicided. Questions were asked about press ethics .. There was nothing in her 'tweets'.

Express newspaper on the outset was investigating the mccanns as being suspects, way before it was considered not to be correct .. many untied threads. What about 'the window' (another window) .. Kate Mccann says that the entry of the supposed kidnapper was through the window. The window was untouched. Latest theory is that the kid wandered out onto the road. Kate Mccann did report that she had been asked where she was the previous night .. resident over their apartment had reported that she'd heard the sound of Madeleine crying for hours. There was a babysitting service available, within the resort complex, but they had chosen not to use it.

the window in this one .. defence case was that the brick was thrown over the gap, from the grassy knoll.. the smoking gun. the big one ... flag appears out of the gun .. FAKE. ... the brick carried up from a rockery outside (sollecito, the staging). thrown from the INSIDE. then .. mixed blood on the bathroom tap, the neck scratch on knox.

her advocate is now president.
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Offline ttrroonniicc


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:51 am   Post subject: Re: THE TRIALS OF RAFFAELE SOLLECITO   

Ergon wrote:
the Sollecitos do have more money than sense, and Raffaele had his bank account enriched by the $975,000 advance from Simon and Schuster as well.

$975,000 for that crap? The Knox book didn't sell because nobody believes her. Point was made again (Meredith Kerchers father) -"wouldn't she want to forget, move on" .. No, she's on Netflix .. That also, it's boring. You want INFORMATION. You want to know what happened, not pages and pages of invention (when it's not in category 'fiction'). All you can do is analyse the person .. nobody wants to go through hundreds of pages of psycho-invention to understand the person. Not worthwhile. Haven't seen the Netflix docu & don't want to. Ugly .. that reporter fellow, Nick Pisa, who released a "she has been released", together with "she has been found guilty", "reporting from perugia". All propaganda is boring, ugly, flawed.
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Offline ttrroonniicc


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 5:40 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Heard a rumor that the makers of 'making a murderer' (on Netflix, Steven Avery & Co. police framing), are working on a Knox documentary. Wouldn't expect anything out of the US to be pro-Knox-guilt.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:15 am   Post subject: Re: fit as a fiddle   

ttrroonniicc wrote:


was thinking that the knife impression on the pillow .. somealibi matched to the "brian tighe", expensive 'designer' knife sollecito carried. According to photo ^, it's the dimension of the kitchen knife.

Impression was the kitchen knife. Sollecito kept hold of his knife (could have been the one he carried into the 'questura' (police station) .. he carried it out of the house as he injured guede with it (re: german police photos of defensive wounds on guedes fingers).

I think the kitchen knife was from the cottage .. it's too cheap for sollecito, within his serviced apartment .. but knox did carry it back to his apartment. Guede took the phones, she took the knife. He used bleach to clean it .. he then broke the waste pipe as in his stoned paranoia, he was worried about blood traces down into the outflow. Story of the mop/flooding/wastepipe partially true. Their stories are fragments of each others experience (which wasn't much). That 'flooding' was in the morning; they had argued, then she was wandering around perugia in the morning, alone.

wrapping of text within pages doesn't appear to work (re: 'PHP')


The prosecutor at the Nencini court said the bed print matched the dimensions of the kitchen knife, Massei IIRC said it might be similar, and as to the Brian Tighe knife, both Knox and Sollecito's DNA were found on it, make of it what you will.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 11:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

On April 26, Knox spoke at a luncheon of the Palm Beach County Bar Association. The famous liar looked a bit pale and teared up several times during her talk, according to a recent newspaper article:

Knox determined to understand forces that put her in Italian prison
By Tony Doris

Knox, now a 29-year-old journalist, said at a luncheon of the Palm Beach County Bar Association Wednesday that her 2015 acquittal in the murder of roommate Meredith Kercher left her not so much angry as determined to understand and communicate about the forces that kept her behind bars, 5,600 miles from home.

“I feel less alone when I’m communicating what I understand,” she said. “What made the perfect storm that brought just the right people together, to make what happened to me happen? What was going on in my prosecutor’s mind, in the media’s mind, in my own mind? What is it that makes people make mistakes or do the right thing?”

The hour-long talk, which at times brought her to tears as she recalled her and her family’s ordeal, drew a standing ovation from the 300 lawyers.

Knox said these days she writes, not just about what happened to her but exonerated former prisoners around the country, many of whom spent more than a decade behind bars. There’s “a huge community of them,” she said, noting that she attends an annual convention where they “can all breathe easily together.”


PALM BEACH POST

How touching.

Reactions from a couple of lawyers present at the luncheon:

Quote:
@amamaknox watched you speak at PB Bar today. Couldn't be more impressed with or moved by you. Thanks for sharing your story with us.

Quote:
@amamaknox Thank you for sharing your time today. Your story has impacted me deeply. After law school, I will work to give a voice to others
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 11:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Is Sollecito now working as a "journalist", too?

NOBILE: Face to face with a monster (VIDEO, 6 min 35 sec)

We sent Raffaele Sollecito disguised as a journalist around Milan, to see what people think of him

VIDEO MEDIASET
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 11:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

guermantes wrote:
Is Sollecito now working as a "journalist", too?

NOBILE: Face to face with a monster (VIDEO, 6 min 35 sec)

We sent Raffaele Sollecito disguised as a journalist around Milan, to see what people think of him

VIDEO MEDIASET

Worse: neither he nor the reporters following him find something creepy about him showing Meredith's picture on his cell phone to people. The text reads "Non so fino il Sollecito". (I do not know Sollecito).


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Offline ttrroonniicc


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 12:30 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

53 hours of interrogation

http://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/amanda-knox-determined-to-understand-forces-that-put-her-in-italian-prison/
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 1:40 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Peter Quennell got back to me. Was on the road and not aware TJMK was down. Has put in call to support, site should be back up soon, hopefully. Will update when I get more information.
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Offline Rumpole


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 12:58 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

OT

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https://stopglyphosate.org/

WeMoveEU wrote:
Why is this important?
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Glyphosate is a common pesticide, used on everything from food to gardens. The World Health Organisation has labelled it as “probably carcinogenic”. It is also very harmful to plant and animal life. In short, it’s a pretty damaging pesticide.

In Summer 2016, after a long campaign by hundreds of thousands of Europeans, the European Commission was unable to relicense the use of Glyphosate for 15 years, but instead had to settle for a short 18 month renewal. This was a huge success achieved in the face of intense lobbying by the chemicals industry. But big producers of weed killers like Monsanto are still lobbying to protect their profits. Their deep pockets have been paying for “studies” and “expert” opinions to show that their product is safe.

It seems to be common-sense that cancer-inducing poison should not be sprayed on our farms, our countryside and our neighbourhoods. We now have the chance to make our voices heard through a European Citizens Initiative -- a legal route that means the European Commission has to listen to us if we collect one milllion signatures this year.

We know what a constant use of Glyphosate will mean for us, the people of Europe: sick people, dead animals, burnt grass, brown leaves, and a loss of biodiversity. Last year, we were able to block Monsanto’s plans in ways they did not expect. But it’s not over, and in 2017 they will be fighting hard to extend the currently short term approval of glyphosate to 15 years. Which is why we will be fighting even harder to stop them.

Take action now: sign our Citizens Initiative against Monsanto’s cancer-inducing poison.

References
[1] This chemical is called Glyphosate and is one of the most widely used active substances in pesticides worldwide.

[2] World Health Organisation (WHO) classifies Glyphosate as ‘potentially causing cancer’: http://sustainablepulse.com/2015/07/30/ ... InksFwTDL5

[3] Glyphosate found in human urine across Europe: https://www.foeeurope.org/weed-killer-g ... ope-130613
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 6:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Circulated, thanks, Rumpole.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 6:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

TJMK is back up again. Have heard from Peter and it was a simple change of registrars which he wasn't able to respond to since he was away. No, it was never "hacked".
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Offline Hennesy


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 8:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Did anybody read Amanda's WSH article on her sister? How narcissistic and cruel...

I will be amazed all my life about how she can have supporters when all the evidence in the case pointed at her involvement, not to mention her arrogant and entitled attitude during the many interviews and articles she becomes public with.

A guilty cover-up of what happened that night is the minimum you can give her even if you are the most skeptical juror.

The prison intercepts between the perps and their families are also very telling. Amanda admits to her mother that she came up with the scream and not the police, that she's worried about the knife while Sollecito's father keeps talking about how Amanda probably killed Meredith during the hours that are erased from Raf's memory. We know Raf's father talks about the case to Bongiorno so we know Bongiorno thinks that at least Amanda is guilty, probably Raf too. Why on earth does she still go on TV to protect Raf after the latest compensation ruling? To save face? For money? Her own reputation? Could she think Amanda is guilty while poor Raf only had a memory black-out on November 1st? I dont think so. Then why does Bongiorno push her luck too hard by appealing the compensation ruling?


I like the Iene video that Guermantes posted, almost everybody interviewed tells Raf in the face that he is guilty and that he should tell the truth! That was a moment of satisfaction!
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:00 pm   Post subject: BATTLE OF THE DUELING NARCISSI   

Amana Knox: Champion
Quote:
“It’ll be an historic moment when Hillary wins. But she doesn’t just have to defeat a man to become the first female President. She has to defeat the Worst Man, the most misogynistic man imaginable.”

West Seattle Herald: Amanda Stands With Trump

New York Times: Trump upset with ingratitude of Ms. Knox

Los Angeles Times: What do I owe Donald Trump?

She slagged him in her Netflix documentary too, LOL.


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Offline herbstwind


Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:54 pm

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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 1:33 pm   Post subject: Re: fit as a fiddle   

ttrroonniicc wrote:


was thinking that the knife impression on the pillow .. somealibi matched to the "brian tighe", expensive 'designer' knife sollecito carried. According to photo ^, it's the dimension of the kitchen knife.

Impression was the kitchen knife. Sollecito kept hold of his knife (could have been the one he carried into the 'questura' (police station) .. he carried it out of the house as he injured guede with it (re: german police photos of defensive wounds on guedes fingers).

I think the kitchen knife was from the cottage .. it's too cheap for sollecito, within his serviced apartment .. but knox did carry it back to his apartment. Guede took the phones, she took the knife. He used bleach to clean it .. he then broke the waste pipe as in his stoned paranoia, he was worried about blood traces down into the outflow. Story of the mop/flooding/wastepipe partially true. Their stories are fragments of each others experience (which wasn't much). That 'flooding' was in the morning; they had argued, then she was wandering around perugia in the morning, alone.

wrapping of text within pages doesn't appear to work (re: 'PHP')


The kitchen knife was part of the inventory of Sollecito's rental apartment. Therfore they had to bring it back to Sollecito's!
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 4:29 am   Post subject: KNOX OP ED LOS ANGELES TIMES   

Readers are welcome to view the comments on Ms. Knox's The Los Angeles Times op ed above. My latest: "That is an interesting perspective on a site (the Wiki) set up to present the complete official case files to the media and general public interested in researching this unique case. They are of course welcome to visit it and see if that description, of it being a "disinformation site" is true. To date, it has received 1.3 million unique visitors, so perhaps they appreciate the facts, as opposed to it being "anti-Knox"?"

And, press release added to the Wiki:


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Offline Rumpole


Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:46 pm

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Location: Old Bailey

PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 3:06 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hennesy wrote:
Did anybody read Amanda's WSH article on her sister? How narcissistic and cruel...

I will be amazed all my life about how she can have supporters when all the evidence in the case pointed at her involvement, not to mention her arrogant and entitled attitude during the many interviews and articles she becomes public with.

A guilty cover-up of what happened that night is the minimum you can give her even if you are the most skeptical juror.

The prison intercepts between the perps and their families are also very telling. Amanda admits to her mother that she came up with the scream and not the police, that she's worried about the knife while Sollecito's father keeps talking about how Amanda probably killed Meredith during the hours that are erased from Raf's memory. We know Raf's father talks about the case to Bongiorno so we know Bongiorno thinks that at least Amanda is guilty, probably Raf too. Why on earth does she still go on TV to protect Raf after the latest compensation ruling? To save face? For money? Her own reputation? Could she think Amanda is guilty while poor Raf only had a memory black-out on November 1st? I dont think so. Then why does Bongiorno push her luck too hard by appealing the compensation ruling?


I like the Iene video that Guermantes posted, almost everybody interviewed tells Raf in the face that he is guilty and that he should tell the truth! That was a moment of satisfaction!


Hi, Hennessy,

Can you link or point me to the intercept where she admits that? There are so many of them ....

I've often pondered about the scream and who brought it up because it does sound plausible to me that it could have been the police that asked her pointed questions of the type she's so often claimed - "Well, how could you not hear her being attacked? Didn't she scream?"
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Offline Hennesy


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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 8:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

It was in the first prison conversation between Amanda and her mother. First ever prison intercept of Amanda. I just looked on TMMK and it is on page 29 of the file:

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/d ... family.pdf

She says she imagined that she could hear Meredith screaming. Nowhere in this conversation she mentions that police suggested anything. Only that she imagined the things she said because police was threatening her with 30 years of jail if she had not told the truth.

If only the police had recorded that interrogation, the case would have been closed that day and Amanda would never have won any appeal!
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Offline Rumpole


Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:46 pm

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Location: Old Bailey

PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 9:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Yes, of course, thanks Hennessy!

I located the audio for this intercept, although it was somewhat difficult. One page (in the wiki) claims that there are no audios, just some samples, but then when you search some more, you end up finding some of the prison intercepts. I've actually downloaded and listened this exact same audio about a year ago (it was still on my computer). At least downloading is a lot quicker now that our optical fibre cables are in more efficient use after our condominium decided to use a higher speed.

Here you can hear also AK describe how she doesn't recall making the 3rd phone call to Edda -does she sound like she's lying? What do you native speakers say? This "forgotten" phone call is one of the major things for me that point to her guilt. You can also hear her saying "Fuck you guys! Fuck you" when talking about the Italian police (29 minutes 26 seconds). At which points Edda says that the lawyers told her not to talk about these things. AK says she doesn't want to talk about it and then goes on to talk some more about it.

It's around 30 minutes into the audio that they talk about the scream etc., it's the audio from 10th of November, 2007. (Soon 10 years ago already!)

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/F ... son_videos
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Offline Rumpole


Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:46 pm

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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 9:47 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
Circulated, thanks, Rumpole.

Thanks, Ergon! I really hope we could one day live in a more democratic society without corporate capitalism always going before human beings ... Our government sucks, EU sucks, US regime sucks etc. Wasn't happy that Macron won, but Le Pen would have been horrible too. And on top of everything it's been snowing here in May, even today! On May day morning there was more snow on the ground than on Christmas Eve. Spring is very late this year up here.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 2:34 am   Post subject: GROUND REPORT SITE CLOSED   

http://www.groundreport.com was closed April 30, 2017.
Quote:
Volunteers from Injustice Anywhere came on board in July 2015 to help with restructuring. The site relaunched with a new look on September 22, 2015.

GroundReport has been sold to a private investor as of May 8, 2017.

I guess Bruce Fischer's business plan didn't work then. Maybe once they remove the directors of a not-for-profit 501(c)(3) corporation who carried on personal vendettas through their website they can figure out a viable news platform?


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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

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Location: New York

PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 8:22 pm   Post subject: Re: GROUND REPORT SITE CLOSED   

Ergon wrote:
http://www.groundreport.com was closed April 30, 2017.
Quote:
Volunteers from Injustice Anywhere came on board in July 2015 to help with restructuring. The site relaunched with a new look on September 22, 2015.

GroundReport has been sold to a private investor as of May 8, 2017.


I guess Bruce Fischer's business plan didn't work then. Maybe once they remove the directors of a not-for-profit 501(c)(3) corporation who carried on personal vendettas through their website they can figure out a viable news platform?


Good catch Ergon

Do you know when this change takes effect? There's an article showing dated May 2016 by Nigel Scott about Knox, and ECHR.

http://www.groundreport.com/european-co ... er-appeal/
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 826

Location: New York

PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 9:21 pm   Post subject: Re: THE PSYCHOLOGY OF A TROLL   

ttrroonniicc wrote:
Ergon wrote:
A recent Washington Post article How researchers tried to understand one of Twitter’s oldest trolling groups caught my eye hbc)
Abby Olheiser
March 2
Quote:
Three-year-old Madeline McCann disappeared from a resort apartment in Portugal in 2007 while on a family vacation. Her British parents were dining nearby. The McCann disappearance, which has never been resolved, became a major British tabloid story. The daily media frenzy has since faded, but a decade later, a tight-knit group of Twitter trolls who are convinced that they have proven the McCann parents’ guilt in their daughter’s disappearance still discuss the case online every single day.

Gerald mccann received news about a judgement from portugal that went against them .. He railed about "twitter trolls". Sky news decided to "expose" one. Reporter Martin Brunt doorstepped 'Brenda Leyland', who they'd tracked down , through twitter- accused her of attacking the McCanns. All tweets were retrieved - she hadn't been attacking the McCanns, she'd been discussing, endlessly analysing the case (another 'whodunnit' with untied threads). Brunt 'exposed' Brenda Leyland by doorstepping her in her small village situation. She found herself all over Sky news, portrayed as this vicious troll, attacking the righteous couple. Brenda Leyland booked herself into a hotel & suicided. Questions were asked about press ethics .. There was nothing in her 'tweets'.

Express newspaper on the outset was investigating the mccanns as being suspects, way before it was considered not to be correct .. many untied threads. What about 'the window' (another window) .. Kate Mccann says that the entry of the supposed kidnapper was through the window. The window was untouched. Latest theory is that the kid wandered out onto the road. Kate Mccann did report that she had been asked where she was the previous night .. resident over their apartment had reported that she'd heard the sound of Madeleine crying for hours. There was a babysitting service available, within the resort complex, but they had chosen not to use it....


Ergon and ttrroonniicc

The Mccann PR seems to have been hard at work in the US. Maybe hunting for $$$$?

I have held no strong views, not really having followed the case, but CNN aired a report a few weeks ago that was so over the top on sanctifying the Mccanns it was a little hard to buy.

Now I see online not only the book by the lead Portuguese investigator Amaral but also lists of open questions hundreds long. Work of those "trolls" does rather make the kidnapping look like a hoax.

http://gerrymccan-abuseofpower-humanrig ... ccann.html
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 4:02 am   Post subject: Re: GROUND REPORT SITE CLOSED   

Fast Pete wrote:
Ergon wrote:
http://www.groundreport.com was closed April 30, 2017.
Quote:
Volunteers from Injustice Anywhere came on board in July 2015 to help with restructuring. The site relaunched with a new look on September 22, 2015.

GroundReport has been sold to a private investor as of May 8, 2017.


I guess Bruce Fischer's business plan didn't work then. Maybe once they remove the directors of a not-for-profit 501(c)(3) corporation who carried on personal vendettas through their website they can figure out a viable news platform?


Good catch Ergon

Do you know when this change takes effect? There's an article showing dated May 2016 by Nigel Scott about Knox, and ECHR.

http://www.groundreport.com/european-co ... er-appeal/


The site was down for a few days till they got a buyer, Pete. The front page seems so Knox centric, who knows, maybe she invested? hbc)
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 4:11 am   Post subject: Re: THE PSYCHOLOGY OF A TROLL   

Fast Pete wrote:
ttrroonniicc wrote:
Ergon wrote:
A recent Washington Post article How researchers tried to understand one of Twitter’s oldest trolling groups caught my eye hbc)
Abby Olheiser
March 2
Quote:
Three-year-old Madeline McCann disappeared from a resort apartment in Portugal in 2007 while on a family vacation. Her British parents were dining nearby. The McCann disappearance, which has never been resolved, became a major British tabloid story. The daily media frenzy has since faded, but a decade later, a tight-knit group of Twitter trolls who are convinced that they have proven the McCann parents’ guilt in their daughter’s disappearance still discuss the case online every single day.

Gerald mccann received news about a judgement from portugal that went against them .. He railed about "twitter trolls". Sky news decided to "expose" one. Reporter Martin Brunt doorstepped 'Brenda Leyland', who they'd tracked down , through twitter- accused her of attacking the McCanns. All tweets were retrieved - she hadn't been attacking the McCanns, she'd been discussing, endlessly analysing the case (another 'whodunnit' with untied threads). Brunt 'exposed' Brenda Leyland by doorstepping her in her small village situation. She found herself all over Sky news, portrayed as this vicious troll, attacking the righteous couple. Brenda Leyland booked herself into a hotel & suicided. Questions were asked about press ethics .. There was nothing in her 'tweets'.

Express newspaper on the outset was investigating the mccanns as being suspects, way before it was considered not to be correct .. many untied threads. What about 'the window' (another window) .. Kate Mccann says that the entry of the supposed kidnapper was through the window. The window was untouched. Latest theory is that the kid wandered out onto the road. Kate Mccann did report that she had been asked where she was the previous night .. resident over their apartment had reported that she'd heard the sound of Madeleine crying for hours. There was a babysitting service available, within the resort complex, but they had chosen not to use it....


Ergon and ttrroonniicc

The Mccann PR seems to have been hard at work in the US. Maybe hunting for $$$$?

I have held no strong views, not really having followed the case, but CNN aired a report a few weeks ago that was so over the top on sanctifying the Mccanns it was a little hard to buy.

Now I see online not only the book by the lead Portuguese investigator Amaral but also lists of open questions hundreds long. Work of those "trolls" does rather make the kidnapping look like a hoax.

http://gerrymccan-abuseofpower-humanrig ... ccann.html

Hi, Pete:
Similarities between Madeleine McCann and Meredith Kercher cases:

1: Massive PR agency efforts set up by suspects and supported by media.

2: Disputed DNA and blood evidence.

3: Shaky alibis.

4: Claims the investigation was 'incompetent' and 'an abuse of power'.

5: False 'break ins'.

6: Passionate advocates on both sides.
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Offline jamie


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Joined: Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:42 pm

Posts: 127

PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 5:36 pm   Post subject: Re: THE PSYCHOLOGY OF A TROLL   

Ergon wrote:
Fast Pete wrote:
ttrroonniicc wrote:
Ergon wrote:
A recent Washington Post article How researchers tried to understand one of Twitter’s oldest trolling groups caught my eye hbc)
Abby Olheiser
March 2
Quote:
Three-year-old Madeline McCann disappeared from a resort apartment in Portugal in 2007 while on a family vacation. Her British parents were dining nearby. The McCann disappearance, which has never been resolved, became a major British tabloid story. The daily media frenzy has since faded, but a decade later, a tight-knit group of Twitter trolls who are convinced that they have proven the McCann parents’ guilt in their daughter’s disappearance still discuss the case online every single day.

Gerald mccann received news about a judgement from portugal that went against them .. He railed about "twitter trolls". Sky news decided to "expose" one. Reporter Martin Brunt doorstepped 'Brenda Leyland', who they'd tracked down , through twitter- accused her of attacking the McCanns. All tweets were retrieved - she hadn't been attacking the McCanns, she'd been discussing, endlessly analysing the case (another 'whodunnit' with untied threads). Brunt 'exposed' Brenda Leyland by doorstepping her in her small village situation. She found herself all over Sky news, portrayed as this vicious troll, attacking the righteous couple. Brenda Leyland booked herself into a hotel & suicided. Questions were asked about press ethics .. There was nothing in her 'tweets'.

Express newspaper on the outset was investigating the mccanns as being suspects, way before it was considered not to be correct .. many untied threads. What about 'the window' (another window) .. Kate Mccann says that the entry of the supposed kidnapper was through the window. The window was untouched. Latest theory is that the kid wandered out onto the road. Kate Mccann did report that she had been asked where she was the previous night .. resident over their apartment had reported that she'd heard the sound of Madeleine crying for hours. There was a babysitting service available, within the resort complex, but they had chosen not to use it....


Ergon and ttrroonniicc

The Mccann PR seems to have been hard at work in the US. Maybe hunting for $$$$?

I have held no strong views, not really having followed the case, but CNN aired a report a few weeks ago that was so over the top on sanctifying the Mccanns it was a little hard to buy.

Now I see online not only the book by the lead Portuguese investigator Amaral but also lists of open questions hundreds long. Work of those "trolls" does rather make the kidnapping look like a hoax.

http://gerrymccan-abuseofpower-humanrig ... ccann.html

Hi, Pete:
Similarities between Madeleine McCann and Meredith Kercher cases:

1: Massive PR agency efforts set up by suspects and supported by media.

2: Disputed DNA and blood evidence.

3: Shaky alibis.

4: Claims the investigation was 'incompetent' and 'an abuse of power'.

5: False 'break ins'.

6: Passionate advocates on both sides.



7. The assumption 'foreign police' are incompetent.
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Offline Jackie


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Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:38 am

Posts: 883

PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 9:16 pm   Post subject: The Keepers (NETFLIX)   

As we await the outcome of the application to the ECtHR, the defamation action, the compensation claim, etc., I think my fellow Victims' Rights Advocates here on PMF will truly appreciate, and perhaps even be inspired by, the new NETFLIX true crime documentary series, "The Keepers".

It covers the tragic 1969 murder of a young nun (Sister Catherine Cesnick) and it is as spellbinding as it is shocking.
Image
Here's a recent review in the NY Times:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/18/arts ... .html?_r=0

The director (Ryan White) does a BRILLIANT job of recounting the events from the perspective of the VICTIMS and their SUPPORTERS and I sincerely hope that, one fine day, an equally talented team has the courage to do the same for the Kerchers.

The Keepers proves that you don't need interviews with the suspects themselves (or their PR people) to frame events properly and shed some light.

It also proves that dogged, DECADES-long determination on the part of ordinary people who SUPPORT VICTIMS of crime can, in fact, do a great deal to help uncover the truth even where police, prosecutors, courts and the mainstream media have failed to do so.

(I was hoping the NETFLIX doc on 'Knoxy' would be as effective in terms of shedding some light but was disappointed to find it was not only relatively short/ superficial but created by biased 'fanboys' who, apparently, lacked the integrity to include what the Supreme Court actually wrote about Knox (i.e., that she WAS THERE) and the learned opinions of Dr. Balding and Professor Dershowitz.)
Hidden Content: show
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________________________
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Offline Rumpole


Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:46 pm

Posts: 238

Location: Old Bailey

PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 3:09 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

More Knox writings, if anyone's interested:

Amanda Knox: How Prisons Use Cult Tactics to Brainwash Inmates Into Religion

And an article discussing and disputing some of her claims:

Prison Fellowship Speaks Out After Amanda Knox Claims Brainwashing Cult Tactics Used on Inmates
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Offline jamie


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Joined: Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:42 pm

Posts: 127

PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Sollecito's compensation appeal is set to be heard at the Supreme Court 28 June 2017.

Quote:
PERUGIA - E 'scheduled for June 28 a hearing in the Supreme Court Raffaele Sollecito, who wants to ask for compensation from the Italian state for his wrongful imprisonment. Sollecito was jailed in fact for the murder of British student Meredith Kercher. The request had already been repudiated by Tuscan judges, who had talked about the contradictory statements of the young man from Puglia.


http://www.umbriadomani.it/politica-umb ... th-148809/
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:12 am   Post subject: MIGNINI ABSOLVED OF CHARGES RELATED TO THE MONSTER OF FLOREN   

Umbria24
March 20, 2017
Quote:
Giuliano Mignini, the Prosecutor in the investigation into the murder of British student Meredith Kercher, who was accused of having carried out retaliatory investigations against officials of the State police and journalists, was acquitted by the disciplinary Section of the High Council of the judiciary with the phrase "did not exist". The Prosecutor of Perugia, now under the Attorney General's Office, was the owner of the inquiry into the death of Francesco Narducci gastroenterologist linked to investigations of the monster of Florence, and any other proceedings on pipelines aimed at obstructing his investigation...

The wiki has received a copy of the Cassazione motivation report dated May 08, 2017 exonerating Mignini. Poor Douglas Preston :)


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Offline LUFC1972


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Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:36 pm

Posts: 79

PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hi All. Meredith's lawyer has written a book on the case: Francesco Paolo Maresca 'Meredith Process: perfect justice?' (Published by ETS). Seems to be only in Italian currently. Source:

http://velvetnews.it/2017/06/11/omicidi ... -perfetta/

Apologies if mentioned elsewhere on here.

Regards.
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Offline Sallyoo


Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:20 pm

Posts: 90

PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

An entertaining aside, this, from La Repubblica today, reporting on massive demand for legal marijuana online.

Sigh, and the wunderkind's 'drone identified deckchairs' hasn't got off the beach.

http://www.repubblica.it/cronaca/2017/0 ... um=twitter
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Offline DanielSC


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Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2009 7:53 pm

Posts: 72

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hi all. Hope you are doing well! Did anyone see Amanda's Instragram account? Just strange.

Also, haven't heard from Michael. Hoping he is ok and good health. He hasn't responded to his PMs either....
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Offline guermantes

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Posts: 4819

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Knox has an unquenchable thirst for the limelight, seeking more notoriety. Why does the world need to know more about Amanda Knox? Her legal case is over, why all the attention-seeking?

June 22, 2017
Amanda Knox makes her Instagram account public to reveal love of boyfriend, cats and costumes

NEWS.COM.AU

Looks like Nick Squires (not to be confused with Nick Pisa ;)) of The Telegraph was the source of this "news":

THE TELEGRAPH

So, Knox didn't dare to visit Italy on her "European tour"? There's a mistake in the first article - AK and her boyfriend took a picture in front of the Pantheon in Paris, not in Rome.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

By they way, Knox has received an "Innocence Award".

This was tweeted on June 1:

The Florida Bar@theflabar Jun 1

Replying to @theflabar @FLA_Innocence @innocence

Sidenote: At the event, famed exoneree and writer Amanda Knox was the keynote speaker AND accepted the 2017 Frank Lee Smith Innocence Award! pic.twitter.com/WWCBKz9pfZ
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 8:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

More whining and complaining from Sollecito in his latest interview (published yesterday, June 22):

Raffaele Sollecito, interviewed by Il Popolano

Raffaele, do you feel a free man, beyond your acquittal, I mean?
'No, I do not feel at all free.'

Why do you say that?
'Because I am full of debts, due to all the court costs I and my family have had to face in recent years.'

Is it true that you have claimed damages?
'Yes, because I have been harmed economically, and that money would serve to return at least part of the expenses I have incurred, and not a few. I was a victim of a miscarriage of justice (judicial error), but the Italian justice system wouldn't even admit that they were wrong.'

Raffaele, how are you faring (getting by)? You are a software engineer, right?
'Yes, exactly. I’m consulting regarding new technologies and the web. I'm working on some applications, so I’m trying to do something. I had to register for VAT for projects that I am following, because it is difficult to get into work at my age. I am thinking of writing a letter to the Ministry of Labor, because I was imprisoned for many years, thereby losing the chance to work and get experience, and I would like at least the state to listen and understand my situation.

Do you think people will ever consider you as a regular guy, as before that November 1, 2007?
'Now people know me for that fact (i.e. the murder – ed). I would, at least, try to drop the veil of mistrust that people have towards me, especially when they meet me on the street. This mistrust was also fueled by justice, which as I mentioned before, did not admit that it was wrong about my person.'

Raffaele, have you ever thought about leaving Italy and starting over again somewhere else?
'If there were any real possibility of working abroad, why not? But it should be a real possibility, because I cannot afford to make ping-pong flights. Right now, however, I do not rule out anything.'


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