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XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30, 13 - JULY 31, 14

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:58 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Oops I quoted myself I hope that NARCISSISM ISN'T CONTAGIOUS

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 11:10 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Somehow I'm doing something wrong when editing


I see, can't edit after a certain amount of time the edit button disappears

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 11:25 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

max wrote:
I think Maori is not stupid and feels this DNA trace could be seen as a continuation of the trace of Knox's DNA on the handle which would fit this description of the courts in the first trial. A slipping action.

Quote:
In Sollecito’s apartment, an extremely clean kitchen knife different from the other ones supplied in the house that he occupied on Corso Garibaldi was found; on the handle of this knife, in the raised portion of the handle where the blade begins, a biological trace (trace A) attributable to Knox was found: the place where the trace was found suggested that the knife had not been used in a horizontal direction, but at a certain angle, suggesting a slipping action of a hand seizing the knife to strike rather than to cut.

If this trace is indeed Knox's DNA on the blade then it does look like her hand slipped which is common when you stab someone with force. I don't think they can determine if the DNA is from blood but I suspect this could well have caused the blood found on the tap in the bathroom. This makes a bit more sense to me than a nose bleed or a ripped off ear ring. On the other hand it does mean that they missed a (probably) tiny cut on Knox's hand.



I have a different opinion, because distancing this trace, or making it clear that it is not a continuation of the other, is not the only thing he is doing here, he is just trying to say something when he has in fact nothing to say but has tried to weigh in, and that is why I call him stupid, he has nothing of value to say, nothing that needs any comment from him, in order to be known or made clear, so then stating right there that therefore this knife is not the murder weapon, therefore trying to put things as though the trace already analysed is meaningless and was not Meredith's, is what he is trying to slide in, but of course things are a little more complicated than that.

It is stupid to pretend to yourself that you will have such a statement be accepted, no way will it, because it is for the court to decide about the validity and relevance of traces, not him and he KNOWS that the trace from Meredith was not disqualified and this means by the Supreme Court who stated there is no evidence of contamination, etc, and that work was carried out according to the rules, so he's flogging a dead horse and wasting time, and he is flogging that dead horse because he has nothing else to bring in.

He made a non-statement, what he said could be realised without him, but it is still of no value. So this test did not show Knox's DNA being mixed with Meredith's.
So what. It's not the issue.

What would have been helpful is Guede's traces had been found on it because that would mean all 3 are in the bag, no questions anymore. As it would mean they lied about everything and this could have been the proof.


The traces were not mixed, but if Meredith's DNA is on that knife, and the knife was thus used on Meredith and no traces of Sollecito are on it, it says that Knox was the killer.

He did not point that out and deviated from what is important, leading people astray as to what everything means.

He repeats the neverending line of the knife doesn't fit the wound but that is only his opinion and he is bound to say it whether the knife does or does not fit.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 11:29 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Also, whether it was the actual knife that took Meredith's life is not the ultimate point, the point is, the knife WAS used on Meredith, whether it killed her or not does not matter, it was part of the tools used to murder Meredith.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 11:39 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Amanda Knox update: DNA on knife doesn't 'clear' suspect
Seattle : WA : USA | Oct 12, 2013 at 4:10 AM PDT
By Chelsea Hoffman



ALL VOICES

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 11:41 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

It's strange how the Anglo media doesn't seem to have picked up on the preliminary tests on the knife yet.

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Offline max


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 11:48 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

True Zorba. He said a lot of things, but why even mention the continuation of the trace? The slipping action was specifically mentioned in the judges report and therefore this could be proof that the slipping continued on the blade. We can all move our hands on a knife handle and leave DNA while cooking. That is no big deal, but how often does your hand slip on the blade of a knife? This is what caught my attention from the things Maori said. I think he realizes DNA of Knox on the blade is not good news at all.
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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 2:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

DNA Results a Key Piece of Evidence in Amanda Knox Case
Previously untested DNA found on alleged murder weapon no match for victim.
01:47 | 10/12/2013 by Nikki Battiste
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/dna-res ... e-20552198

Short video, Mandy in the tree and on the shore and Ted Simon (so I guess he's still in?) speaking at approx. 00:35.

"The hopes of the prosecution have been dashed."
"The findings are unofficial yet." (wow!)
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 2:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Michael wrote:
Amanda Knox update: DNA on knife doesn't 'clear' suspect
Seattle : WA : USA | Oct 12, 2013 at 4:10 AM PDT
By Chelsea Hoffman



ALL VOICES



I've just decided that just because Hoffman writes stuff against Knox, doesn't make what she writes good, in fact, she write pretty worthless crap, going to what she writes as I usually do when seeing a link, again her stuff has no substance, shows no angles but now, she links to some other website with one of the most god-awful incorrect lot of shit I have ever read.

Written 13 hours ago it says both are not in Italy, Knox in her native Seattle and Sollecito in Switzerland. The man goes on to see Guede received a lower sentence for implicating the other two, which is totally inaccurate, only in this particular report, it's more a question of total ignorance rather than trying to convey all the wrong things, at least I think so.

Hoffman though, has nothing on the DNA and in fact what she has is misleading and not based on anything as regards the latest testing, what is was of, and or why.

I don't think I'll bother reproducing what that idiot wrote, she links to him, but surely she could not have read it, why would she link to such nonsense.

If people want to find the nonsense he wrote they will, without my help.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 2:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

See that what ABC is saying is yet again saying stuff that is not true, nobody said anything about any prosecution saying or thinking or wanting or suspecting any trace found by Vecchiotti & Co to belong to Meredith, it just needed to be tested, Meredith's DNA has already been found on the knife, that Nicki Battiste is one hell of a shit reporter too isn't she.

There's nothing to start jumping up and down about but that's the way she is reporting it like this test was supposed to be about the prosecution needing it to belong to Meredith but that's incorrect, it was just something found and not yet analysed, so it had to be, that is all.

As far as I know the findings Patrizia Stefanoni found were correct, are correct and still valid.

Everything Hellmann's court decided, was made void.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 2:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

max wrote:
True Zorba. He said a lot of things, but why even mention the continuation of the trace? The slipping action was specifically mentioned in the judges report and therefore this could be proof that the slipping continued on the blade. We can all move our hands on a knife handle and leave DNA while cooking. That is no big deal, but how often does your hand slip on the blade of a knife? This is what caught my attention from the things Maori said. I think he realizes DNA of Knox on the blade is not good news at all.


Yes they are up and engaging in their media misinformation routine. The Italians involved with Sollecito, his lawyers, and Knox's too, seem to have picked up on he way things are done in America, even Sollecito has but it only damages him more doing that.

Take a look at the last two links, one from Michael one from Ava, I mean, that ABC channel is such a crock of crap, people like that just make stuff up.

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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 3:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

zorba wrote:
See that what ABC is saying is yet again saying stuff that is not true, nobody said anything about any prosecution saying or thinking or wanting or suspecting any trace found by Vecchiotti & Co to belong to Meredith, it just needed to be tested, Meredith's DNA has already been found on the knife, that Nicki Battiste is one hell of a shit reporter too isn't she.

There's nothing to start jumping up and down about but that's the way she is reporting it like this test was supposed to be about the prosecution needing it to belong to Meredith but that's incorrect, it was just something found and not yet analysed, so it had to be, that is all.

As far as I know the findings Patrizia Stefanoni found were correct, are correct and still valid.

Everything Hellmann's court decided, was made void.


The most interesting for me is that Ted Simon is still working for the Knoxes, because apparently there have been reports that this was not the case. So there should be a little money left over for him...
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ava wrote:
zorba wrote:
See that what ABC is saying is yet again saying stuff that is not true, nobody said anything about any prosecution saying or thinking or wanting or suspecting any trace found by Vecchiotti & Co to belong to Meredith, it just needed to be tested, Meredith's DNA has already been found on the knife, that Nicki Battiste is one hell of a shit reporter too isn't she.

There's nothing to start jumping up and down about but that's the way she is reporting it like this test was supposed to be about the prosecution needing it to belong to Meredith but that's incorrect, it was just something found and not yet analysed, so it had to be, that is all.

As far as I know the findings Patrizia Stefanoni found were correct, are correct and still valid.

Everything Hellmann's court decided, was made void.


The most interesting for me is that Ted Simon is still working for the Knoxes, because apparently there have been reports that this was not the case. So there should be a little money left over for him...


Yes with those people Ava I cannot allow myself to believe anyuthing untli I see it, theye're odd enough as refards motivation for getting involved in the ways they do to start with so when I heard those stories about him, luike being busy with other things, it meant pretty much nothing, it's speculation-based.

What interests me, is whether the knife was actually broken open.

I'm not sure, I think where it says open, they mean openings in the knife, not the knife opened rtight up but I really think it should be in fact I think it is ridiculous if it is not, there could be lots of blood from Meredith in there, it depends of the joining parts of the knife wwre absolutely closed, if not, blood may have been able to get in there.

I do not understand why they haven't ever opened it up, maybe the knife was so perfectly made there's no way blood could get in, however, I doubt it.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Seattle business using Amanda Knox likeness in pizza ad


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KING5

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Offline Iodine


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Michael wrote:
It's strange how the Anglo media doesn't seem to have picked up on the preliminary tests on the knife yet.


Image


picture of a pumpkin
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Iodine wrote:
87


(edit -- my cat posted this one stepping on my keyboard)



Cats will one day take over the world, starting with Google, I'm certain of it, you can see it in their eyes

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

that sandwich board, christ, its wrong on so many levels, any sentence that includes her name and slice can never be good

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Amanda Knox: Inside the mind of a former Foxy Knoxy supporter

BAZAAR DAILY

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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Michael wrote:
Amanda Knox: Inside the mind of a former Foxy Knoxy supporter

BAZAAR DAILY


More interesting than the article itself is the comment that has been published under it.

Amanda Knox made who famous? Delusional.

A murder has been committed and these people talk about fame.


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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

The FOAKer that is @HughDub on Twitter responded to Chelsea Hoffman's recent piece. He was getting getting big headed about it on Twitter, so I responded to his comment as "Fulcanelli": http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-ne ... r-suspect#

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 12:11 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

That particular photo of her, on that link to the ex supporter, sure is a mean looking one

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 12:15 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Michael wrote:
The FOAKer that is @HughDub on Twitter responded to Chelsea Hoffman's recent piece. He was getting getting big headed about it on Twitter, so I responded to his comment as "Fulcanelli": http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-ne ... r-suspect#


That is Hugh Whitehurst. He was the one inquiring on Twitter (!!!) if Raffaele Sollecito had taken precautions to hide the donation money effectively.
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Offline chami


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:30 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Nell wrote:
Michael wrote:
Amanda Knox: Inside the mind of a former Foxy Knoxy supporter

BAZAAR DAILY


More interesting than the article itself is the comment that has been published under it.

Amanda Knox made who famous? Delusional.

A murder has been committed and these people talk about fame.


Very interesting indeed! The face that lauched a thousand sheeps.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 4:54 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Goats fall over stiff when they are surprised.
What do sheep do again?
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 12:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Jester wrote:
Goats fall over stiff when they are surprised.
What do sheep do again?



They get all woolly about it

Human sheep

Fluffy all over
A little ugly on the side

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Offline chami


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Jester wrote:
Goats fall over stiff when they are surprised.
What do sheep do again?


They just follow the flock if the master is away

They are always unsurprised
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

chami wrote:
Jester wrote:
Goats fall over stiff when they are surprised.
What do sheep do again?


They just follow the flock if the master is away

They are always unsurprised


Aw c'mon, guys. Sheep aren't baaa-ad, they're just drawn that way!
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Offline McCall


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:47 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Nell wrote:
Michael wrote:
The FOAKer that is @HughDub on Twitter responded to Chelsea Hoffman's recent piece. He was getting getting big headed about it on Twitter, so I responded to his comment as "Fulcanelli": http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-ne ... r-suspect#


That is Hugh Whitehurst. He was the one inquiring on Twitter (!!!) if Raffaele Sollecito had taken precautions to hide the donation money effectively.


lol ... He raised so little money.

Much like the rest of the FOAKers he is one of the dumber members of their flock. It is difficult to know how to approach people like him. The majority of the flock have are preinclined to defend Knox either because they are racists or because they are old and believe that pretty little white girls that remind them of their granddaughters can't do bad things. The majority have no education and fall into the bottom quartile for intelligence. They end up relying on the few who hold themselves out to be authorities for information but those people are all a combination of stupid, mentally unstable, and dishonest. I honestly believe the pawn FOAKers actually believe the misinformation. I don't think they are lying but rather they are just low intelligence and gullible. Their understanding of reality does not match reality and I imagine that must be pretty scary for them. I think there is going to be a lot of freaking out in December when they get convicted.
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Offline Zopi


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 3:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

"Mills of the Gods,
Grind exceedingly slow,
But grind exceedingly fine..."
~Euripides (485-406 BC)

Warning: Baby Hope case
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-576 ... to-police/
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Offline Slade


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 4:29 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

McCall wrote:
Nell wrote:
Michael wrote:
The FOAKer that is @HughDub on Twitter responded to Chelsea Hoffman's recent piece. He was getting getting big headed about it on Twitter, so I responded to his comment as "Fulcanelli": http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-ne ... r-suspect#


That is Hugh Whitehurst. He was the one inquiring on Twitter (!!!) if Raffaele Sollecito had taken precautions to hide the donation money effectively.


lol ... He raised so little money.

Much like the rest of the FOAKers he is one of the dumber members of their flock. It is difficult to know how to approach people like him. The majority of the flock have are preinclined to defend Knox either because they are racists or because they are old and believe that pretty little white girls that remind them of their granddaughters can't do bad things. The majority have no education and fall into the bottom quartile for intelligence. They end up relying on the few who hold themselves out to be authorities for information but those people are all a combination of stupid, mentally unstable, and dishonest. I honestly believe the pawn FOAKers actually believe the misinformation. I don't think they are lying but rather they are just low intelligence and gullible. Their understanding of reality does not match reality and I imagine that must be pretty scary for them. I think there is going to be a lot of freaking out in December when they get convicted.


Recall seeing a photo of Hugh Whitehurst -- based on what I've discovered about the FOAKers, he is the typical male profile of rabid AK supporters: white male age 60-70's who see themselves as 'white knights' providing protection for an all-American young beauty. Evidence about her obvious guilt is meaningless, in fact, they don't want to read, nor hear, about evidence -- completely close their minds off.

One male FOAKer in his mid-60's with whom I have argued this case since 2009 has given me several different answers to my repeated question of 'What does the Italian Justice System have to gain by framing a nobody American college student?'

Once, must have caught him during a fit of honesty, b/c the last time he answered the question, I believe some truth crept into his answer. He commented that he believed American men who defend AK online were committed to the idea of preventing those sexually obsessed dirty Italian men who wanted to 'get their hands on' AK and would stop at nothing to get her returned to Italy so they could live out their sexual fantasies of sexually assaulting her. This idea apparently drives them crazy. Although I suspect they're projecting, since the fantasy 'of getting their hands on' AK is what actually drives their own interests in her.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 4:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

In Italy, if you are found guilty, it is quite easy to lodge an appeal and have the request accepted.

In Italy if a person is found not guilty, it is quite easy for the prosecution to lodge an appeal and have the request accepted.

In other countries, being granted an appeal is most often not easy.

Main countries where it is not easy at all to get an appeal is in the United Kingdom and in the United States of America.

In Italy, if a trial or appeal, lodged either by the prosecution or the individual charged, fails to proceed in accordance with the rules as to how evidence must be examined, the highest court, the Supreme Court is under obligation to cancel the validity of the trial or appeal.
Had there never been this system in Italy, then since Knox and Sollecito were found guilty in the trial, they would never have been free now. However, since the appeals process forms part of the trial, the actual case/trial is never over until every party has its chance to lodge appeals, and then finally, have the Supreme Court rule, to make everything final.
This was never the case in this trial.
They are not undergoing a retrial, they are on appeal, the first appeal having been made void by the Supreme Court for not following the rules applicable to examining and ruling on evidence.

To say it is unfair for the case to be undergoing review through an appeal, means those who say it actually are saying Knox and Sollecito should never have been given an appeal, because if you do not agree with the appeal now, how can you say the other appeal was good, for this one is connected to that one, and that other one, the first appeal is now meaningless because it broke the rules applicable to judging on evidence.

To summarise for those unable to get past 2 + 2 = 4
1. There is no retrial
2. The appeal is not a trial
3. It is an appeal relevant to the trial, in an ongoing process, meaning thus, that is not yet finished and was not finished at the moment the two charged with murder were released.
To keep speaking as though American law applies in Italy is the same as saying Chinese law should apply in America.

Is Chinese law applicable in America, and should it be? Is Russian law applicable in Seattle, and should it be?

4. If you imagine the answer to the questions posed in 3. is yes, you cannot be helped.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 4:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Basically, what the shouters and brainless media types are up to again, is creating myths, it never was that the prosecution expected the trace to be from Meredith but the defence and its shouter brigade were VERY afraid of yet another trace from Meredith being found to go with the one already found.

I do hope the judge has every mm. of the knife tested.

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Offline Slade


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 4:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30   

Michael wrote:
Slade wrote:
Michael wrote:
Slade wrote:

Intriguing idea -- hiding the smaller knife in plain sight as well. We know RS had a large number of knives in his collection -- many of a similar size, right? The officers who searched RS's flat selected the kitchen knife based on its blade size fitting the large neck wound as described to them, and its shiny, scratched, very clean appearance from obvious scrubbing. But how many of his personal knife collection did they examine? That knife may very well still be hidden in plain sight among RS's other knife collection.

Police had to use what info they had when searching RS's flat for evidence. If RS still has it, I'd bet that sick, nasty fellow drools over that knife even today.



Hi Slade and welcome to PMF!!! :) Sollecito kept his main knife collection back at his father's house. He only had a few knives with him in Perugia...two pocket knives and a combat knife (that we know about).


Hey Michael, good to know this, thanks! Suppose it was possible to have hidden an unrecovered knife somewhere in his apt. or car, then retrieve it later.



Well, according to Massei, that other pocket knife was missing/lost. The court was left only with a description of it and its dimensions from Sollecito's friends who had seen it. Massei concluded that that knife, from the descriptions, was a match for the secondary wound to Meredith's neck.


I did look back at those pages in English translation of Massei re: RS's pocket knife and friends' testimony about seeing him with it. I'd read it before, when first reading Massei report in its entirety approximately a year and a half ago -- ashamed to admit, I've forgotten so much. Was good to refresh on these points -- need to do more re-reading of it.
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Offline Slade


Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:39 pm

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

zorba wrote:
In Italy, if you are found guilty, it is quite easy to lodge an appeal and have the request accepted.

In Italy if a person is found not guilty, it is quite easy for the prosecution to lodge an appeal and have the request accepted.

In other countries, being granted an appeal is most often not easy.

Main countries where it is not easy at all to get an appeal is in the United Kingdom and in the United States of America.


Thanks for the comprehensive lesson re: Italian appeal process - read each of your recent posts about this process. Your answer was much more complete than what I got from .org. Already know you're the go-to guy for understanding Italian justice and penal codes.

Although some of this I was aware of since I'm not a neophyte to the case, just wanted to get reassurance from someone who knew more about Italian justice system, that these two horrible characters didn't have some type of arcane judicial 'out' their defense teams could pull from of their hats last minute requesting yet another appeal before CoC rules on Nencini's verdict.

Agree they need grounds for the appeal!
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:47 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Slade wrote:
zorba wrote:
In Italy, if you are found guilty, it is quite easy to lodge an appeal and have the request accepted.

In Italy if a person is found not guilty, it is quite easy for the prosecution to lodge an appeal and have the request accepted.

In other countries, being granted an appeal is most often not easy.

Main countries where it is not easy at all to get an appeal is in the United Kingdom and in the United States of America.


Thanks for the comprehensive lesson re: Italian appeal process - read each of your recent posts about this process. Your answer was much more complete than what I got from .org. Already know you're the go-to guy for understanding Italian justice and penal codes.

Although some of this I was aware of since I'm not a neophyte to the case, just wanted to get reassurance from someone who knew more about Italian justice system, that these two horrible characters didn't have some type of arcane judicial 'out' their defense teams could pull from of their hats last minute requesting yet another appeal before CoC rules on Nencini's verdict.

Agree they need grounds for the appeal!


Hi Slade I try, I don't know everything but I do look stuff up, and study it, and I work with legal stuff too, contracts, deeds, agreements, so I'm familiar with that strange type of language used, and that means in every language, upon seeing it, most people will think, huh, what the hell is this, as it looks like stuff they'd write in the 16th Century, and probably is from then, a lot of it, really, because just today working on a document, an employment contract, and they refer to the act of bla bla from 1944, now that's quite something to get into your head, that life is still being lived, in compliance with rules made up before the Second World War ended. However, what I mean to say is, after a while you start to get used to the terms and many are repeated in slightly different word, orders, etc., and it helps me to be able to see through the maze of wording to grasp what it is that is written even in stuff written in Italian/ore elsewhere outside of my work.

I particularly enjoyed reading and still do, the things written by those in law in Italy, especially the judges in this case, not Hellmann I'm afraid, but Massei and Micheli. Massei's work was nothing short of brilliant in the way he set it all out and substantiated every single thing. The Supreme Court did not just dismiss this last appeal for nothing, they never ever could have dismissed what Massei had written, as a result and in direct relation to his work, which means in the court, placed next to Hellmann's pathetic attempt, Massei was Van Gogh and Hellmann's official motivational report was a scribble hung up on a fridge door. We see a child's scribble we know they are only kids, and we do not deride them, but if one is a high court judge then one must scold the stupid, untalented child and send it on its way. Thing is though, it isn't so much about brilliance as doing your job properly which Massei was capable of but Hellmann no, the latter should have been a traffic warden. More than Micheli though, there was a female judge and she was very clear about Knox, about how she was a very cunning liar, and she two backed up what she was saying by the events, as they had unfolded. Hellmann, totally disresected his colleagues as though everything they said was meaningless and he was above them (even after the Supreme Court he acts as if he is above that body too, he could have been Heavey's brother/twin), but the Supreme Court did no such thing.

The main thing I want to say is, that, it is not so that the system allows for endless appeals, and this is exactly why the Supreme Court has issued warnings, and instructed, very clear ones, at first the appeal is easy to get, it is a more or less general matter of practice, but there will not be more appeals, unless the court does a bad job which is highly unlikely.

This court is not going to act like Hellmann, in his stating things and deciding to do things or not do them with a total disregard to the applicable rules or anyone else, he knew he couldn't do that but he didn't care, because Knox would get out, I'm sure he knew that he could not just refuse tests or demand ones that shouldn't have taken place, with a total disregard for the preceding matters, rulings, but he did it all the same.

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Last edited by zorba on Sun Oct 13, 2013 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 6:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

post with points 1 to 3 I made to post on Hoffman's site but having to register I couldn't be bothered and I thought, what's the use, even trying to talk sense to some complete moron, I think that one poster has been posting for years, the nasty shouter with the brain the size of dwarf garden pea.

So posted it here.

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Offline Aranavachi


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 7:05 pm   Post subject: Re: At PMF.org -- paranoia is thick!   

zorba wrote:


When you've told a bad lie and everyone can see it is one, the best thing to do is shut up and hope, that it is forgotten, only in his case, it never was going to be as it is a most important element, him making up nonsensical tales about pricking the murder victim and being told it is not a problem.

I cannot remember ever being hurt by anyone by accident then telling them, oow ow ouch ouch ouch
Let me inform you, it is not a problem.

Mother today I accidently scalded my friend with hot water, but she told me, awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
It is not a problem.

Get real, nobody words things like this, like that.
He never pricked her.

But...... the worst bit about this tale of his from way back when, is that he made that up about pricking her, and this is hard for me to get right, but where in actual fact Meredith suffered something so much worse than a prick and it was the worst problem she would ever face in her life because it meant she died, makes this man ia shameless bastard; if it were the middle ages he would deserve to be hung drawn and quartered, stretched on the rack,
his acts after the murder,
are an insult to the collective human IQ, the biggest insult,
the cruelty involved in it, making such stuff up directly related to what really happened, where Meredith never got the chance to say ANYTHING, let alone "it is not a problem."

He is no less than a pathological, self-centred liar.


This pricking Meredith story is one of the main pieces of intellectually obvious evidence.
By that I mean, for the DNA stuff most people can be confused by science and in terms of all the circumstantial evidence excuses can be made on each individual piece - creating Laurel & Hardy characterization for AK and RS whereby the two stupids were blissfully unaware of the world around them and had no common sense at all!

Hard to believe, but if your mind wants not to accept that these two murdered poor Meredith farfetched stupid excuses can be made...but for the pricking story which is written in black and white in a letter to his father under no duress at all. I cannot think of ANY reason in the world why he would say this! Other than to make an excuse in case they find DNA on the knife belonging to Meredith. How can anyone hear this, read this and not see it as a full confession!?

This is also proof that his father knows RS is guilty. The man cannot claim to be stupid given he is a doctor! I think he feels responsible for his son's derailment and clearly unstable mental state.

This whole case is like a bad comedy that is funded by powerful, rich and resourceful producers who market the hell out of it. Especially when reviewing the lies and stories of the first few days before the SUPER EXPENSIVE LAWYERS kicked in. I wont go on, but the fact that they have some of the best legal representation possible is also proof of their guilt to me. If those lawyers cant get you off, you are guilty! There is no way to get a more fair trial.
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Offline Iodine


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 7:14 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

chami wrote:
Nell wrote:
Michael wrote:
Amanda Knox: Inside the mind of a former Foxy Knoxy supporter

BAZAAR DAILY


More interesting than the article itself is the comment that has been published under it.

Amanda Knox made who famous? Delusional.

A murder has been committed and these people talk about fame.


Very interesting indeed! The face that lauched a thousand sheeps.


Hahahahahaha. Nice.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 7:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

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Offline Ava


Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:08 pm

Posts: 943

PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 7:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Le analisi sulla traccia isolata sulla lama del coltello
Meredith: indiscrezioni sul dna di Amanda, perizia depositata il 30 ottobre
(Meredith: indiscretions on the DNA of Amanda, expertise filed Oct. 30)
di Redazione - domenica, 13 ottobre 2013 16:00
http://www.firenzepost.it/2013/10/13/me ... 0-ottobre/

(google trans, readable, I hope)
FLORENCE - For the final results of the analysis that the carabinieri del Ris are doing in Rome on the track isolated on the blade of the knife believed to be the weapon with which Meredith Kercher was killed we'll have to wait until October 30, the day when the experts appointed by the Court of Appeal of Florence settle their conclusions. But from the moment the analysis started there were rumors about the dna, attributed to Amanda Knox, the American student convicted before and then acquitted for the murder of her roommate Meredith.

But there is no certainty yet. If in fact, as there are rumors those biological particles belonged to Amanda Knox, the data may lend itself to be read in many ways.

The defense hasten to say that Amanda having attended Raffaele Sollecito's house, where the knife was found in, there is nothing strange if her DNA is left on the blade. Just like Amanda's DNA was on the handle of the weapon. The presence could be justified by a trivial task in the kitchen. Moreover, the defense of Knox has always maintained that the hotly contested track isolated and analyzed on the blade of the knife that for someone is the DNA of Meredith is nothing but potato starch. So Amanda would have left her traces on the knife peeling potatoes.

In contrast, the prosecution could say that the very presence of the DNA of Amanda on the blade of the knife could be evidence that Knox touched it. To peel potatoes or to kill her roommate Meredith, how will the accusation be upheld? The data, if confirmed, you can bet will cause an earthquake of which the judges of the Court of Florence will have to collect debris. Or they may decide to not consider it more than the other elements, since it actually lends itself to multiple interpretations, now impossible to ascertain.

Certainly if that track was the victim's, the process may take a different direction, in so far as there would be two, at that point, and not only one trace of DNA on the blade of a knife that the victim has never touched in her life. The certainties, or rather the conclusions of the experts will be filed Oct. 30.

November 6 is set for the hearing in which these results will be discussed before the Court and to the parties. On that date, Raffaele Sollecito may also be present in the courtroom, as announced by his lawyers Giulia Bongiorno and Luca Maori. Sollecito is going to make some spontaneous statements to affirm once again that he didn't take part in the crime for which only Rudy Hermann Guede is imprisoned with a final sentence of 16 years.


Last edited by Ava on Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:08 pm   Post subject: Re: At PMF.org -- paranoia is thick!   

Aranavachi wrote:
zorba wrote:


When you've told a bad lie and everyone can see it is one, the best thing to do is shut up and hope, that it is forgotten, only in his case, it never was going to be as it is a most important element, him making up nonsensical tales about pricking the murder victim and being told it is not a problem.

I cannot remember ever being hurt by anyone by accident then telling them, oow ow ouch ouch ouch
Let me inform you, it is not a problem.

Mother today I accidently scalded my friend with hot water, but she told me, awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
It is not a problem.

Get real, nobody words things like this, like that.
He never pricked her.

But...... the worst bit about this tale of his from way back when, is that he made that up about pricking her, and this is hard for me to get right, but where in actual fact Meredith suffered something so much worse than a prick and it was the worst problem she would ever face in her life because it meant she died, makes this man ia shameless bastard; if it were the middle ages he would deserve to be hung drawn and quartered, stretched on the rack,
his acts after the murder,
are an insult to the collective human IQ, the biggest insult,
the cruelty involved in it, making such stuff up directly related to what really happened, where Meredith never got the chance to say ANYTHING, let alone "it is not a problem."

He is no less than a pathological, self-centred liar.


This pricking Meredith story is one of the main pieces of intellectually obvious evidence.
By that I mean, for the DNA stuff most people can be confused by science and in terms of all the circumstantial evidence excuses can be made on each individual piece - creating Laurel & Hardy characterization for AK and RS whereby the two stupids were blissfully unaware of the world around them and had no common sense at all!

Hard to believe, but if your mind wants not to accept that these two murdered poor Meredith farfetched stupid excuses can be made...but for the pricking story which is written in black and white in a letter to his father under no duress at all. I cannot think of ANY reason in the world why he would say this! Other than to make an excuse in case they find DNA on the knife belonging to Meredith. How can anyone hear this, read this and not see it as a full confession!?

This is also proof that his father knows RS is guilty. The man cannot claim to be stupid given he is a doctor! I think he feels responsible for his son's derailment and clearly unstable mental state.

This whole case is like a bad comedy that is funded by powerful, rich and resourceful producers who market the hell out of it. Especially when reviewing the lies and stories of the first few days before the SUPER EXPENSIVE LAWYERS kicked in. I wont go on, but the fact that they have some of the best legal representation possible is also proof of their guilt to me. If those lawyers can't get you off, you are guilty! There is no way to get a more fair trial.



Indeed Arana, especially in trying to cover up a first lie he says something that truly shows it was a lie, because he muddled up what he said, thinking nobody would notice, but if he is going to prance about online playing games, mind games, and trying to use that online presence to put some idea of himself forward as some great and swell kinda guy, he ought to know what he is going to say or make things worse, that's the danger when you are up to no good.

So he stated early on, I pricked Meredith in the hand, then he taken unaware, invents another lie, a la minute; it never happened, I never pricked her in the hand, I dreamed it up while suffering at the hands of that AWFUL justice system, in solitary no less. Everything, any point ever against them, they explain away by blaming someone for some kind of abuse but ain't that just something when you juat happen to be accused of the worst type of abuse there is, murder.

So they made him dream it up, it never happened.
Yes because finding out people aren't as stupid as he perhaps assumed they were, realising that he had been caught out on that point to begin with since Meredith had never been to his home, he thinks he can get rid of that first lie about the knife by making a second one; will he now make up yet another lie, to explain how he didn't actually mean it never happened, actually, didn't mean to say he said it while in solitary but that he actually cannot remember anything, anymore... AGAIN.


It would be good to have it clear, about whether or not the RIS who are examining the knife, are allowed explicity only to examine that one trace or examine the knife, again, all of it, even more meticulously if that's possible, and using the newer equipment.

Since the case is still going on, surely the newer instrumentation would be more appropriate, if it is now available, what's the sense in not using it?

The Italian article Ava (hello Ava) posted also referred to two traces from Meredith, like, if another were to be found, so no talking about it as if the other trace from Meredith has been dismissed, which it has not.

Massei didn't dismiss it, and since Hellmann is tending geraniums some place and his rulings were regarded as nothing more than road maps designed by a blind man with chronic rheumatism, that isn't much use in finding the way.

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Last edited by zorba on Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ava wrote:
Le analisi sulla traccia isolata sulla lama del coltello
Meredith: indiscrezioni sul dna di Amanda, perizia depositata il 30 ottobre
(Meredith: indiscretions on the DNA of Amanda, expertise filed Oct. 30)...



Thanks for that, Ava!!!

The Italian media are so much better then the Anglo media. They at least try and weigh up the different points and perspectives and contain some actual substance. Anglo media just goes for one line (which is often incorrect) with a load of sensationalism, then rattles on about the background of the case or/and the latest twaddle Amanda Knox or/and Sollecito is saying. I find reading the Italian articles almost a relief, Google translated or not.

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THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Michael wrote:
Ava wrote:
Le analisi sulla traccia isolata sulla lama del coltello
Meredith: indiscrezioni sul dna di Amanda, perizia depositata il 30 ottobre
(Meredith: indiscretions on the DNA of Amanda, expertise filed Oct. 30)...



Thanks for that, Ava!!!

The Italian media are so much better then the Anglo media. They at least try and weigh up the different points and perspectives and contain some actual substance. Anglo media just goes for one line (which is often incorrect) with a load of sensationalism, then rattles on about the background of the case or/and the latest twaddle Amanda Knox or/and Sollecito is saying. I find reading the Italian articles almost a relief, Google translated or not.



It's like two totally different subjects

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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:02 pm   Post subject: Re: At PMF.org -- paranoia is thick!   

zorba wrote:
Aranavachi wrote:
zorba wrote:


When you've told a bad lie and everyone can see it is one, the best thing to do is shut up and hope, that it is forgotten, only in his case, it never was going to be as it is a most important element, him making up nonsensical tales about pricking the murder victim and being told it is not a problem.

I cannot remember ever being hurt by anyone by accident then telling them, oow ow ouch ouch ouch
Let me inform you, it is not a problem.

Mother today I accidently scalded my friend with hot water, but she told me, awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
It is not a problem.

Get real, nobody words things like this, like that.
He never pricked her.

But...... the worst bit about this tale of his from way back when, is that he made that up about pricking her, and this is hard for me to get right, but where in actual fact Meredith suffered something so much worse than a prick and it was the worst problem she would ever face in her life because it meant she died, makes this man ia shameless bastard; if it were the middle ages he would deserve to be hung drawn and quartered, stretched on the rack,
his acts after the murder,
are an insult to the collective human IQ, the biggest insult,
the cruelty involved in it, making such stuff up directly related to what really happened, where Meredith never got the chance to say ANYTHING, let alone "it is not a problem."

He is no less than a pathological, self-centred liar.


This pricking Meredith story is one of the main pieces of intellectually obvious evidence.
By that I mean, for the DNA stuff most people can be confused by science and in terms of all the circumstantial evidence excuses can be made on each individual piece - creating Laurel & Hardy characterization for AK and RS whereby the two stupids were blissfully unaware of the world around them and had no common sense at all!

Hard to believe, but if your mind wants not to accept that these two murdered poor Meredith farfetched stupid excuses can be made...but for the pricking story which is written in black and white in a letter to his father under no duress at all. I cannot think of ANY reason in the world why he would say this! Other than to make an excuse in case they find DNA on the knife belonging to Meredith. How can anyone hear this, read this and not see it as a full confession!?

This is also proof that his father knows RS is guilty. The man cannot claim to be stupid given he is a doctor! I think he feels responsible for his son's derailment and clearly unstable mental state.

This whole case is like a bad comedy that is funded by powerful, rich and resourceful producers who market the hell out of it. Especially when reviewing the lies and stories of the first few days before the SUPER EXPENSIVE LAWYERS kicked in. I wont go on, but the fact that they have some of the best legal representation possible is also proof of their guilt to me. If those lawyers can't get you off, you are guilty! There is no way to get a more fair trial.



Indeed Arana, especially in trying to cover up a first lie he says something that truly shows it was a lie, because he muddled up what he said, thinking nobody would notice, but if he is going to prance about online playing games, mind games, and trying to use that online presence to put some idea of himself forward as some great and swell kinda guy, he ought to know what he is going to say or make things worse, that's the danger when you are up to no good.

So he stated early on, I pricked Meredith in the hand, then he taken unaware, invents another lie, a la minute; it never happened, I never pricked her in the hand, I dreamed it up while suffering at the hands of that AWFUL justice system, in solitary no less. Everything, any point ever against them, they explain away by blaming someone for some kind of abuse but ain't that just something when you juat happen to be accused of the worst type of abuse there is, murder.

So they made him dream it up, it never happened.
Yes because finding out people aren't as stupid as he perhaps assumed they were, realising that he had been caught out on that point to begin with since Meredith had never been to his home, he thinks he can get rid of that first lie about the knife by making a second one; will he now make up yet another lie, to explain how he didn't actually mean it never happened, actually, didn't mean to say he said it while in solitary but that he actually cannot remember anything, anymore... AGAIN.


It would be good to have it clear, about whether or not the RIS who are examining the knife, are allowed explicity only to examine that one trace or examine the knife, again, all of it, even more meticulously if that's possible, and using the newer equipment.

Since the case is still going on, surely the newer instrumentation would be more appropriate, if it is now available, what's the sense in not using it?

The Italian article Ava (hello Ava) posted also referred to two traces from Meredith, like, if another were to be found, so no talking about it as if the other trace from Meredith has been dismissed, which it has not.

Massei didn't dismiss it, and since Hellmann is tending geraniums some place and his rulings were regarded as nothing more than road maps designed by a blind man with chronic rheumatism, that isn't much use in finding the way.


I think that the context of when this lie first appeared adds weight to its importance.
From his diary, on November 16, 2007, he is in jail and sees on television that the knife has been seized. He admits going into a panic. He then speaks to his attorney who tells him it is nothing, it could have occurred because the girls were at his flat, or he cooked for them, or whatever.
It is only after this, that he calms down and remembers that he pricked Meredith while cooking. The panic is gone.

I wouldn't conclude from this that his attorney told him to lie, but Sollecito certainly seems to grasp this concept.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Slade wrote:
Recall seeing a photo of Hugh Whitehurst -- based on what I've discovered about the FOAKers, he is the typical male profile of rabid AK supporters: white male age 60-70's who see themselves as 'white knights' providing protection for an all-American young beauty. Evidence about her obvious guilt is meaningless, in fact, they don't want to read, nor hear, about evidence -- completely close their minds off.

One male FOAKer in his mid-60's with whom I have argued this case since 2009 has given me several different answers to my repeated question of 'What does the Italian Justice System have to gain by framing a nobody American college student?'

Once, must have caught him during a fit of honesty, b/c the last time he answered the question, I believe some truth crept into his answer. He commented that he believed American men who defend AK online were committed to the idea of preventing those sexually obsessed dirty Italian men who wanted to 'get their hands on' AK and would stop at nothing to get her returned to Italy so they could live out their sexual fantasies of sexually assaulting her. This idea apparently drives them crazy. Although I suspect they're projecting, since the fantasy 'of getting their hands on' AK is what actually drives their own interests in her.


I couldn't agree more with this. You've nailed the nature and motives of the typical FOAKer "Keep your foreign hands off our wiimin!!!" For many, that's what it boils down to at their core. And of course, they are projecting their own hang-ups and desires onto the Italians. Just like their accusing the Italians of not wanting to lose face is one of the biggest acts of projection I've ever seen. And this latter, is why they'll never back down from supporting Knox, even if they come to the realisation she did it (I believe many already have). After all they've done and said in Knox's name, they could never publicly admit that they were wrong all this time.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Okay, so, on the DNA testing. If they find another track belonging to Amanda, expect that to leak out by the defence almost as soon as it's found. If they find Meredith's, don't expect to hear a thing before Oct 30, there's no way the defence would leak that piece of news!

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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

zorba wrote:
Michael wrote:
Ava wrote:
Le analisi sulla traccia isolata sulla lama del coltello
Meredith: indiscrezioni sul dna di Amanda, perizia depositata il 30 ottobre
(Meredith: indiscretions on the DNA of Amanda, expertise filed Oct. 30)...



Thanks for that, Ava!!!

The Italian media are so much better then the Anglo media. They at least try and weigh up the different points and perspectives and contain some actual substance. Anglo media just goes for one line (which is often incorrect) with a load of sensationalism, then rattles on about the background of the case or/and the latest twaddle Amanda Knox or/and Sollecito is saying. I find reading the Italian articles almost a relief, Google translated or not.



It's like two totally different subjects


Maybe parallel universes do exist...
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:19 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

More Astrology:

Amanda Knox - Vedic Chart Reading


http://mysite.verizon.net/vzes290p/id131.html

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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:39 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

For the Canadians

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:41 am   Post subject: Re: At PMF.org -- paranoia is thick!   

Napia5 wrote:

I think that the context of when this lie first appeared adds weight to its importance.
From his diary, on November 16, 2007, he is in jail and sees on television that the knife has been seized. He admits going into a panic. He then speaks to his attorney who tells him it is nothing, it could have occurred because the girls were at his flat, or he cooked for them, or whatever.
It is only after this, that he calms down and remembers that he pricked Meredith while cooking. The panic is gone.

I wouldn't conclude from this that his attorney told him to lie, but Sollecito certainly seems to grasp this concept.


It does. The lie popped up, out of the blue, when Sollecito learned that the knife found in his kitchen drawer contained Meredith's DNA; evidence of his involvement in the murder. It seems that he immediately concocted a whopper of a lie, claiming that Meredith had been a dinner guest at his apartment. Did he really think that he could pull that off? He probably assumed the Meredith was like Knox - a language student, but unlike Knox, Meredith was a full fledged Erasmus Travel Scholarship University student. Sollecito must have been thinking that he could get away with claiming that Meredith had dinner at his apartment. Why would an innocent person concoct such a bizarre story? Clearly he didn't realize that her University friends would know whether she'd had dinner at his apartment.

Today, we have Knox and Sollecito hiding out as far as possible from the Italian legal arm, knowing that they cannot wiggle out from under the consequences of their actions, even if they appear to be "nice college kids".

They stay away from each other because they know what they are capable of together, and it concerns both of them in terms of prison.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:54 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ava wrote:

Maybe parallel universes do exist...


One universe has lonely and emotionally abandoned men (US) protecting a woman online (US woman) from a foreign group (Italia), and the other has a pretend college student running from her murderous past (imaginings, memory laps, drug fused hooplas, and lies; lies upon lies).

Chivalry is dead.
Emotionally abandoned men pursuing Knox as a Project should get a hobby, like model airplanes.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:46 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Rose Montague of IIP has posted a new picture of the knife, not seen previously. It appears to have been taken by the scientific police, date unknown. Please note that further testing is to take place early Monday the 14th in Rome. I repeat, the testing has not been completed.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:39 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

So ... we know that the sample I-36 was taken on the top of the knife between the blade and the hande?

Okay, we get it. I-36 was taken from the top of the blade at the handle and Knox was apparently cutting vegetables when this happened? How about we think about the fact that Sollecito prepared meals for Knox (court documents) and that there isn't really any explanation for Meredith and Knox on the same knife. That is, when Knox and Sollecito had meals, Sollecito prepared the meals (fish, pasta, pizza).
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:57 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Jester wrote:
So ... we know that the sample I-36 was taken on the top of the knife between the blade and the hande?

Okay, we get it. I-36 was taken from the top of the blade at the handle and Knox was apparently cutting vegetables when this happened? How about we think about the fact that Sollecito prepared meals for Knox (court documents) and that there isn't really any explanation for Meredith and Knox on the same knife. That is, when Knox and Sollecito had meals, Sollecito prepared the meals (fish, pasta, pizza).



Right, it's obvious no cook amateur or professional cooks using a penknife, if he claimed he did (and I mean there's no way penknives are any use at all for cooking), he only made the claim hoping that all traces of himself were wiped off in order to distance himself from the murder, if Meredith's traces were found to be on that knife, which they were, but I have never seen him claiming to have used a penknife for all cooking, however, I must say I do not read books by people like that.
Think how jolly that would have been...

Knox: Well, I'm going to get rid of her

Sollecito: What?

Knox: You heard, get rid of her

Sollecito: How?

Knox: Murder her

Sollecito: Murder?

Knox: Yes murder

Sollecito: How?

Knox: Stab her to death

Sollecito: I see, you will not use a knife from your home I take it? You will buy one?

Knox: Don't be stupid, that will lead back to me

Sollecito: What then?

Knox: I think it's best to use one of yours

Sollecito: Mine?

Knox: No one will know

Sollecito: I see, yes, maybe you're right, which one?

Knox: That big one

Sollecito: Where you going to do this?

Knox: At my place

Sollecito: Perfect, the perfect murder, my knife your place



I just cannot see it.

I can see her storming off and just taking his knife but I do not think he'd have been too happy upon seeing what she had and who it belonged to, for him to have okayed the use of his very own knife, he'd have had to have been nuts.

More acceptable to me in accordance with the way things do go in real life, is that the knife was there, for the simple reason he preferred it knowing it was sharp and wanting to use it to cisiler his mushrooms and blunt knives are not good for that.

As the argument escalated things went mad, with anger and threats and bullying, but if Knox stabbed Meredith to death, it could have happened in different ways, she could have been the one to inflict the smaller wounds and then going nuts she went and grabbed the big knife in order to totally freak Meredith out, if Knox had already stabbed Meredith, causing the small wounds and stormed off, Sollecito may have been left there restraining Meredith in the moment scared to death she was going to race off to alarm others, which she obviously would have tried to do, so, obviously, he'd have been forced to get into something that he never imagined was going to take place, Knox storms back into the room then, and pulls that big knife out on Meredith as though she were Crocodile Dundee, but being totally out of control she made things even worse, when in an instant she stabbed Meredith with all her might.

The might could only come from a really bad temper, an emotionally derailed run right off the track temper, and I see someone doing that when involved in a conflict, you cannot stab someone with that force as though nothing is going to happen, in that moment when someone does that, they want to destroy the other in every single way. The battle was of minds, but it is then taken to the physical, being unable to win in the mind department. And that not being able to win mentally, real or perceived, is the underlying force that could lead, does lead to such an act. It's like damn you, I'll show you.

Another possibility is, Knoxstole Meredith's money then they smashed the window and were going to act like it was a burglary but Meredith saw through it straight away and got angry at Knox, calling her a drugged up tart. Because it was all so obvious, it's so easy to imagine Knox trying to convince Meredith but then grinning, etc, and giving the game away. Meredith may not have even seen the broken window until she noticed her money was gone. But if she did initially think there was a burglary because of what Knox told her, it is not likely that she would have called her bank, she would have called the police. If she had seen a broken window she would have.

If she only saw her money had disappeared there's no way she was going to imagine it was one of the two Italians, not with a Knox who had been acting odd and already been making alarm bells ruing in Mredith's head trying to deal with her odd ways. I imagine that in this latter scenario Meredith on telling Knox would have immediately realised it WAS Knox who had done it, especially if there was not stated burglary at that point, as there could be nobody else. And Knox is bound to have been in Meredith's face at some point about the situation with Patrick Lumumba. Either Meredith having told Knox (before Knox knew that she herself was a problem for Patrick) that she had been invited by Patrick to make cocktails or Patrick having told Knox. If at the same time, or within the same few days Patrick had told Knox first that Meredith was going to make cocktails on a lady's night and then shortly afterwards Patrick started trying to shut Knox out as she was no use to him, then Knox would have taken it as some kind of conspiracy rather than accepting that her own behaviour was out of order.

Me no job? Okay then, see how you like it if I take your money.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:05 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Seeing that knife enlarged right there, it's plain to see that should it be opened up there will be more traces found, as the joins are not perfect AT ALL, there is space for dirt and matter to get in there, certainly liquids.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:23 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Perugia Prosecutor Files Complaint After Knox Memoir Passages Appear in Italy

Andrea Vogt



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:27 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

The above is old by the way, but the sort of info in it tends to pass from memory easily, so it's worth a recap. It was being tweeted recently.

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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:14 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

If this is blood on the knife, I'm still going to figure it was a nosebleed. If I am holding the knife and take a punch to the nose, I think, instinctively, I'm going to bring the back of my hand up to wipe. My dominant hand, the one holding the knife.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Hard Knocks for Amanda Knox: The Case Against the American Girl

by Bondbabe007

On October 14, 2013



ALL THINGS CRIME BLOG

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Offline max


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Napia5 wrote:
If this is blood on the knife, I'm still going to figure it was a nosebleed. If I am holding the knife and take a punch to the nose, I think, instinctively, I'm going to bring the back of my hand up to wipe. My dominant hand, the one holding the knife.

The judges report describes the DNA on the handle as the result of a slipping action. If it is now proven that that slipping action continued on the knife blade then I think it is more likely that Knox had a tiny cut on her hand/finger. I think that explains the blood on the tap better than the back of the hand. It also brings back the mixed blood vs just mixed DNA discussion I think. Tiny cuts can bleed pretty bad for a short while but heal quickly. Anyway, it is all just rumors and speculations so far. We don't really know if Knox's full profile was found, or as the rumors (Andrea Vogt) say that there might be another profile present in the trace.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ergon wrote:
Rose Montague of IIP has posted a new picture of the knife, not seen previously. It appears to have been taken by the scientific police, date unknown. Please note that further testing is to take place early Monday the 14th in Rome. I repeat, the testing has not been completed.


Is that the same one? IIRC the knife handle was black plastic. Wouldn't that be molded to the blade leaving no gap? I am highly suspicious of anything posted there/by them.

wm)
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

There might be more surprises in store from the knife...
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

in fact, i cannot imagine if having the knife to test for that trace already located, the rsi would be somehow forbidden from looking for other traces, or in the course of analysing the trace already found they just come acrosss others, somehow, especially if that knife there above is it however i wouldn't trust rose as far as i could thrown him

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ergon wrote:
There might be more surprises in store from the knife...


Agreed. PQ told me last night.......rather nasty surprises.....
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

zorba wrote:
in fact, i cannot imagine if having the knife to test for that trace already located, the rsi would be somehow forbidden from looking for other traces, or in the course of analysing the trace already found they just come acrosss others, somehow, especially if that knife there above is it however i wouldn't trust rose as far as i could thrown him

They don't have the knife I think? Just a swab. The judges could request it of course, but they might well have enough information after this test.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Hi, dgfred. This file photo appears to be a new one from the scientific police lab, so I doubt it was doctored, but yes, it was released to the defense. The gap is fairly tight, except on the cutting edge side where it meets the handle (some speculate Vecchiotti may have opened it slightly there, though I don't see from the report where this was recorded)

From Laboratory Analysis of Item 36

the English Translation by IIP members komponisto and katydid. Again, I have no reason to believe it was not an accurate translation.

Quote:
Thus, the areas on the handle of the knife were indicated with the letters A-D-F, while the areas of interest on the blade were indicated with the letters B-C-E-G.

With the agreement of the parties, two further samples were taken from the point of contact between the blade and the handle, on opposite sides of the knife, and these samples were indicated with the letters H-I.


Keep all this in mind, and be prepared for further surprises. As Andrea Vogt tweeted on Friday, another trace is being tested.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:38 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

I'm still waiting for the sound bytes.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

The fury bytes too, signifying nothing? :)
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

No defence leaks so far today. This indicates that today's knife findings may be bad news for Knox!

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Porta A Porta is doing a show on the case tomorrow night. Knox is to be interviewed (by TV link I presume).

Let's see if she can rack up another slander charge!

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:15 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Just tweeted by Andrea Vogt:

Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 2m
#amandaknox billed to appear via Skype on Italy news show Porta a Porta Tues. Will host @BrunoVespa have details on DNA analysis?

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Offline McCall


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Michael wrote:
Porta A Porta is doing a show on the case tomorrow night. Knox is to be interviewed (by TV link I presume).

Let's see if she can rack up another slander charge!


Isn't Porta A Porta a fairly tough show?
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

McCall wrote:
Michael wrote:
Porta A Porta is doing a show on the case tomorrow night. Knox is to be interviewed (by TV link I presume).

Let's see if she can rack up another slander charge!


Isn't Porta A Porta a fairly tough show?



yes, not Oggi, but problem is, the language barrier, that any Italian host trying to cross-examine them on Tv, cannot say it the way they can in Italian, so it is going to be used as yet another publicity spot by the Knoxes as much as they can get away with it

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:38 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Yes, Porta A Porta has a good reputation and have actually done some good shows on the case. Usually, they always have a mixture of panelists balanced, so you have those arguing guilt and innocence. Maresca, Bongiorno and Biscuits as well as several of the witnesses, have all featured.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

max wrote:
zorba wrote:
in fact, i cannot imagine if having the knife to test for that trace already located, the rsi would be somehow forbidden from looking for other traces, or in the course of analysing the trace already found they just come acrosss others, somehow, especially if that knife there above is it however I wouldn't trust rose as far as i could thrown him

They don't have the knife I think? Just a swab. The judges could request it of course, but they might well have enough information after this test.


I see, and according to what Ergon posted below, your post somewhere, TWO NEW SWABS taken, so like the knife is under safekeeping obviously not at some lawyer's office but the police which IS the RIS, they don't lock stuff up in a fridge in the court, so under controlled circumstances the knife is brought out, at the lab, and swabs taken in the presence of the parties concerned
(and if a party makes a no-show that's their fault as it was before)
and the scientists responsible for the new testing then get to test & examine what they have.

It seems to me the court, by directing the authorities/government specialists/experts to analyse the traces, again (Stefanoni worked and works I think still for the RIS in Rome, or am I mistaken), are making a statement, that, they are not having these out on the weekend kind of mercenary so-called experts who are not safe at all, as we saw, behind the scenes they got together with parties it seems highly probable, so sending it to what is in fact the POLICE, means they're saying we're having none of this nonsense.
And that they confirm the authority of Stefanoni, they the Supreme Court know she didn't get to where she is by being stupid or doing stupid things, that woman is completely honest and a true consummate professional.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Michael wrote:
No defence leaks so far today. This indicates that today's knife findings may be bad news for Knox!


On .org Peter Quennell informs that the defence teams weren't present for further tests on Monday.
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Offline Slade


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Jester wrote:
Ava wrote:

Maybe parallel universes do exist...


One universe has lonely and emotionally abandoned men (US) protecting a woman online (US woman) from a foreign group (Italia), and the other has a pretend college student running from her murderous past (imaginings, memory laps, drug fused hooplas, and lies; lies upon lies).

Chivalry is dead.
Emotionally abandoned men pursuing Knox as a Project should get a hobby, like model airplanes.


Before AK's book release, I teased a few of her rabid male supporters that they would now have an opportunity to touch AK's hand when they went to get their books signed (didn't know there would be no book signings by her). Also teased a few about how they justified all their online efforts in supporting her all this time. Approximately a year ago, some were so convinced AK's book would sell tens of millions of copies they bragged that FOA was planning to host a huge party, flying in all her online supporters to Seattle, to thank them personally. Only none of it happened...boo hoo hoo!

Realize I owe you a timeline re: my theory of AK & RS stealing Meredith's rent money on afternoon of Nov. 1st before they left the cottage. After re-reading some of Massei I think I have a loose timeline in mind, if I may try it out:

Curatolo testified he saw them in Piazza Grimana beginning around 9:30PM, he said he didn't watch them the entire evening, but recalled clearly seeing them, he had seen them both before. He next remembered noticing them again at around 11:30PM but they were gone by midnight. The three ear witnesses testified to hearing the horrible, loud scream at approximately 11-11:30PM, and CoC has decided to use this time as an indicator of time of death.

With this in mind, I think it's possible AK & RS were in Piazza Grimana at 9:30 PM watching for Rudy to arrive at the cottage drive gate, met him, went to cottage and were their annoying, loud, obnoxious drugged up selves, before the hazing or confrontation began, leading to violence against Meredith, beginning approx. 11-11:15PM. After fleeing, concerned someone had heard the scream, AK & RS retreated to Piazza Grimana and again watched the cottage drive to determine if police were called. Before midnight they left Piazza Grimana, tossed Meredith's phones, and planned what to do next. Curatolo probably did see them twice, once before the murder, and again after the murder.
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Offline Slade


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Nell wrote:
Michael wrote:
No defence leaks so far today. This indicates that today's knife findings may be bad news for Knox!


On .org Peter Quennell informs that the defence teams weren't present for further tests on Monday.


Isn't this interesting! What's the point of not hearing it all -- good news and bad news? If the defense representatives hear discouraging words about DNA results, would they be obligated to share that news with their clients? If they did 'share the news' are they concerned their clients would begin to seriously plan for a life on the run?
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

How can she give an interview? Will she address the evidence from the knife? Both of them have declined to attend.
So, she will give a long-distance interview about her take on the proceedings? I'm just plain disgusted.
What a sham.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Nell wrote:
Michael wrote:
No defence leaks so far today. This indicates that today's knife findings may be bad news for Knox!


On .org Peter Quennell informs that the defence teams weren't present for further tests on Monday.


IF that's true, you can bet they're in phone contact though!

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Slade wrote:
Nell wrote:
Michael wrote:
No defence leaks so far today. This indicates that today's knife findings may be bad news for Knox!


On .org Peter Quennell informs that the defence teams weren't present for further tests on Monday.


Isn't this interesting! What's the point of not hearing it all -- good news and bad news? If the defense representatives hear discouraging words about DNA results, would they be obligated to share that news with their clients? If they did 'share the news' are they concerned their clients would begin to seriously plan for a life on the run?



Well, "if" it's true, it's because the defence have already gotten what they wanted/needed from the examination of the knife - a profile that isn't Meredith's. That's something they can use to their advantage PR-wise. Anything else found after that isn't of use to them. Moreover, if Meredith's DNA is found, they have better leave to attack it because their experts weren't there nodding their approval at each step. It's a repeat of a tactic they used before. Knox's defence didn't turn up for the first test on the knife at the start of the case either. It's just this time around, the defences are more coordinated with each other, so neither went.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Nell wrote:
Michael wrote:
No defence leaks so far today. This indicates that today's knife findings may be bad news for Knox!


On .org Peter Quennell informs that the defence teams weren't present for further tests on Monday.



See they do it on purpose then set about misinforming everyone, like they were unfairly treated, these shiters wonderful characters never stop

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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Napia5 wrote:
How can she give an interview? Will she address the evidence from the knife? Both of them have declined to attend.
So, she will give a long-distance interview about her take on the proceedings? I'm just plain disgusted.
What a sham.


I guess she doesn't see a contradiction in not going to Italy and attending the trial while kind of attending/commenting all the same via skype/video from overseas.
If she's discussing the knife we might be hearing about Amanda the cook...potatoes, onions, maybe she'll introduce a new vegetable?
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Please have a look at the latest article on True Justice For Meredith Kercher: Carabineri Labs Might Prove Fourth And Conclusive Scenario For The Mixed DNA Samples In The House.

There are two photos from the knife included that I have not seen before. They show the handle from a perspective that makes you think that if the took the handle off, they could definitely find something interesting there.

Image

If I am not mistaken Judge Nencini said he reserved the right to order more tests.

picture of a pumpkin
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Slade wrote:
Nell wrote:
On .org Peter Quennell informs that the defence teams weren't present for further tests on Monday.


Isn't this interesting! What's the point of not hearing it all -- good news and bad news? If the defense representatives hear discouraging words about DNA results, would they be obligated to share that news with their clients? If they did 'share the news' are they concerned their clients would begin to seriously plan for a life on the run?


zorba wrote:
See they do it on purpose then set about misinforming everyone, like they were unfairly treated, these shiters never stup


What is bizarre is that someone would hire a team of experts and lawyers in two different countries, whine about the cost and then not send them to do their jobs!
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Offline tamale


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:25 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ergon wrote:
Hi, dgfred. This file photo appears to be a new one from the scientific police lab, so I doubt it was doctored, but yes, it was released to the defense. The gap is fairly tight, except on the cutting edge side where it meets the handle (some speculate Vecchiotti may have opened it slightly there, though I don't see from the report where this was recorded)

From Laboratory Analysis of Item 36

the English Translation by IIP members komponisto and katydid. Again, I have no reason to believe it was not an accurate translation.

Quote:
Thus, the areas on the handle of the knife were indicated with the letters A-D-F, while the areas of interest on the blade were indicated with the letters B-C-E-G.

With the agreement of the parties, two further samples were taken from the point of contact between the blade and the handle, on opposite sides of the knife, and these samples were indicated with the letters H-I.


Keep all this in mind, and be prepared for further surprises. As Andrea Vogt tweeted on Friday, another trace is being tested.


You have my attention. pp-(
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:01 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

zorba wrote:
max wrote:
zorba wrote:
in fact, i cannot imagine if having the knife to test for that trace already located, the rsi would be somehow forbidden from looking for other traces, or in the course of analysing the trace already found they just come acrosss others, somehow, especially if that knife there above is it however I wouldn't trust rose as far as i could thrown him

They don't have the knife I think? Just a swab. The judges could request it of course, but they might well have enough information after this test.


I see, and according to what Ergon posted below, your post somewhere, TWO NEW SWABS taken, so like the knife is under safekeeping obviously not at some lawyer's office but the police which IS the RIS, they don't lock stuff up in a fridge in the court, so under controlled circumstances the knife is brought out, at the lab, and swabs taken in the presence of the parties concerned
(and if a party makes a no-show that's their fault as it was before)
and the scientists responsible for the new testing then get to test & examine what they have.

It seems to me the court, by directing the authorities/government specialists/experts to analyse the traces, again (Stefanoni worked and works I think still for the RIS in Rome, or am I mistaken), are making a statement, that, they are not having these out on the weekend kind of mercenary so-called experts who are not safe at all, as we saw, behind the scenes they got together with parties it seems highly probable, so sending it to what is in fact the POLICE, means they're saying we're having none of this nonsense.
And that they confirm the authority of Stefanoni, they the Supreme Court know she didn't get to where she is by being stupid or doing stupid things, that woman is completely honest and a true consummate professional.

I think you misunderstood. No new swabs were taken. That was a quote from the C&V report. C&V refused to analyze the swab that contained DNA because they thought it was too small. Now they are testing that swab. What is interesting is that the trace is much smaller than the trace that contained Meredith's DNA. I understand that technology has progressed but it seems silly to say this trace is much smaller than the other and is accepted, and the larger trace is not accepted just out of principle because it was considered too small at that time. Defense is left with complicated contamination theories.


Last edited by max on Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:04 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

What's pissing me off is how BBC, which people in the UK are under obligation to pay an annual licence fee for and if they do not they are not permitted to watch any TV at all, and if they do and get caught, they get fined heavily for or may even wind up in prison for, they keep having CNN and ABC ion, I look up like huh, did I switch over, so what is it with the BBC that thinks it's so great to not have it's own news programmes but to allow such crap channels like ABC to put it's stuff on. BBC is in many ways a commercial channel now, there are no commercial breaks on TV but in every other way they seem to have joined the rest, with popups advertising at you on the sites.

Anyway, they seem to have gone back to the ordinary BBC now.
After seeing all of the nonsense and worse than nonsense ABC did in relation to this case I ca'nt stand em.
CNN too, Komo too, in fact, someone needs to tell me what the good channel is in America, dioes one exist?
I used to imagine the New York Times as paper was something good but this too, after seeing a few of the ill-informed, unresearched articles, written by creepty types, I lost faith in them too.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:13 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

max wrote:
zorba wrote:
max wrote:
zorba wrote:
in fact, i cannot imagine if having the knife to test for that trace already located, the rsi would be somehow forbidden from looking for other traces, or in the course of analysing the trace already found they just come acrosss others, somehow, especially if that knife there above is it however I wouldn't trust rose as far as i could thrown him

They don't have the knife I think? Just a swab. The judges could request it of course, but they might well have enough information after this test.


I see, and according to what Ergon posted below, your post somewhere, TWO NEW SWABS taken, so like the knife is under safekeeping obviously not at some lawyer's office but the police which IS the RIS, they don't lock stuff up in a fridge in the court, so under controlled circumstances the knife is brought out, at the lab, and swabs taken in the presence of the parties concerned
(and if a party makes a no-show that's their fault as it was before)
and the scientists responsible for the new testing then get to test & examine what they have.

It seems to me the court, by directing the authorities/government specialists/experts to analyse the traces, again (Stefanoni worked and works I think still for the RIS in Rome, or am I mistaken), are making a statement, that, they are not having these out on the weekend kind of mercenary so-called experts who are not safe at all, as we saw, behind the scenes they got together with parties it seems highly probable, so sending it to what is in fact the POLICE, means they're saying we're having none of this nonsense.
And that they confirm the authority of Stefanoni, they the Supreme Court know she didn't get to where she is by being stupid or doing stupid things, that woman is completely honest and a true consummate professional.

I think you misunderstood. No new swabs were taken. That was a quote from the C&V report.


I see I did then.
All I hope is the judge decides that the knife needs further examination, I really do not get why they did not open that knife up right from the start.
If they had and there is evidence in there, this could have been wound up a long time ago and Knox and Sollecito would never have gotten out.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:15 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

max wrote:
zorba wrote:
max wrote:
zorba wrote:
in fact, i cannot imagine if having the knife to test for that trace already located, the rsi would be somehow forbidden from looking for other traces, or in the course of analysing the trace already found they just come acrosss others, somehow, especially if that knife there above is it however I wouldn't trust rose as far as i could thrown him

They don't have the knife I think? Just a swab. The judges could request it of course, but they might well have enough information after this test.


I see, and according to what Ergon posted below, your post somewhere, TWO NEW SWABS taken, so like the knife is under safekeeping obviously not at some lawyer's office but the police which IS the RIS, they don't lock stuff up in a fridge in the court, so under controlled circumstances the knife is brought out, at the lab, and swabs taken in the presence of the parties concerned
(and if a party makes a no-show that's their fault as it was before)
and the scientists responsible for the new testing then get to test & examine what they have.

It seems to me the court, by directing the authorities/government specialists/experts to analyse the traces, again (Stefanoni worked and works I think still for the RIS in Rome, or am I mistaken), are making a statement, that, they are not having these out on the weekend kind of mercenary so-called experts who are not safe at all, as we saw, behind the scenes they got together with parties it seems highly probable, so sending it to what is in fact the POLICE, means they're saying we're having none of this nonsense.
And that they confirm the authority of Stefanoni, they the Supreme Court know she didn't get to where she is by being stupid or doing stupid things, that woman is completely honest and a true consummate professional.

I think you misunderstood. No new swabs were taken. That was a quote from the C&V report. C&V refused to analyze the swab that contained DNA because they thought it was too small. Now they are testing that swab. What is interesting is that the trace is much smaller than the trace that contained Meredith's DNA. I understand that technology has progressed but it seems silly to say this trace is much smaller than the other and is accepted, and the larger trace is not accepted just out of principle because it was considered too small at that time. Defense is left with complicated contamination theories.

Since it is ongoing I don't think anything can be excluded, remember it is only the defence that has tried to act as if Meredith's trace is not hers, but Stefanoni identified it as belonging to Meredith, so it is still in the case.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:49 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

GOOGLE TRANSLATION:


Murder Meredith , Rudy from prison :
"I told the truth about her death"
The young Ivorian sentenced could be heard during the appeal against Amanda and Raffaele . The office: start from those who were in the house


PERUGIA - The DNA is Amanda ? Maybe. Raffaele 's knife is the murder weapon ? Can be. Or not. Investigations, counter- analysis impossible and only earlier today.
Doubt that the police will have to give an answer of Ris, but with the stakes imposed by the Court of Assizes of Appeal of Florence called to judge for the fourth time Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito , who are accused of the murder of Meredith Kercher .
Doubts , scientific evidence turned over according to the needs of the prosecution and the defense , yet before the Court presided over by Alessandro Nencini could get the truth of who , without doubt, the house on Via della Pergola in the evening between the first and November 2, 2007 c ' was definitely . It is the truth of Rudy Guede , who was sentenced by a final 16 years for murder in the competition. In competition with those who will decide the truth of the case of this fourth degree or maybe you 'll never find out . " Rudy has been branded as unreliable and a liar - attacks Nicodemo Gentile , along with his lawyer Walter Biscotti - . But after six years in prison is a liar and the truth is what? ".
Rudy has been in jail for a few days after the crime , when it was soon found after fleeing Germany. He has always admitted to being in the house of the crime that night, but to be in the bathroom listening to music while Meredith was killed . "I heard a scream , then footsteps on the pavement . There were more people, but I did not kill Mez . " To confirm that the young Ivorian is not the perpetrator of the murder , all judgments , including two of the Supreme Court . He has participated , said the judgments, but he had not the knife in his hand. "He has paid and is paying - continued the lawyer Gentile - but he did not ever have believed. He always told the truth , it was considered unreliable and yet still be groping in the dark . The liar , meanwhile, is still in prison in May might already have what it takes to get permits, but we do not think that the truth is blown out . "
During the first hearing in the Court of Assizes of Appeal has spoken of the hypothesis of the affected young basketball player : no one has refuted and could really happen that Rudy comes out of the prison at a time of maxi- 32 classroom of the court of Florence. " There are no fixed points - insists Gentile - perhaps it would be really the case hear it again . It is broken down by the words of Luciano Aviello , already considered unreliable . And then, liar liar , he starts over who was really in that house . From two certainties : the decision is final and especially Rudy also the judgment of the Court of Cassation court explains that he has nothing to do with the simulation of the broken window to enter the house . And we wonder : strangers , maybe the aforementioned brother Aviello , what need would have to simulate ? If there was simulation , it is clear that it was made to ward off the idea that the killers were able to access the house without difficulty, directly . "
Well known killers , since there were no other signs of forced entry except the broken window on which the President Nencini has rejected the request of the new assessments , thus providing for good as established by previous decisions.
Everything back then at the next hearings Florence. From the highly anticipated November 6 , when the largest Andrea Berti and Captain Philip Barni , officers of the biology section of Ris in Rome, will explain what conclusions are reached after analysis of the track "I" found on the knife seized from Sollecito and that according to initial rumors belong to Amanda . " The rumors ? We are peaceful and serene as before - said Luciano Ghirga , the American lawyer - but in any case expect the evaluation and interpretation of data experts. Their work is not finished and we remember that we too have asked this further investigation, convinced that there was no surprise . "



IL MESSAGGERO

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:56 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Hey, dgfred, happy birthday mate!!! :) :) :)

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:57 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

The spin begins: Ted Simon back at the forefront of Amanda Knox's defense on American TV

Attachment:
Ted Simon at the forefront of Knox's defense.JPG


New DNA evidence appears to favor Amanda Knox in retrial
By KOMO Staff

Defense lawyer Ted Simon tells ABC News that preliminary findings have found no trace of Kercher's DNA on the knife.

"The findings were Meredith Kercher's [DNA] was not on the blade - something that the prosecution was hoping for," says Simon. "Those hopes have been dashed."

The new findings could refute the prosecution's claim that the knife was used to kill Kercher.

"These are reliable findings," says Simon. However, he cautioned that the findings remain unofficial until submitted to the court.


KOMO NEWS


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:09 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Nell wrote:
Please have a look at the latest article on True Justice For Meredith Kercher: Carabineri Labs Might Prove Fourth And Conclusive Scenario For The Mixed DNA Samples In The House.

There are two photos from the knife included that I have not seen before. They show the handle from a perspective that makes you think that if the took the handle off, they could definitely find something interesting there.

Image

If I am not mistaken Judge Nencini said he reserved the right to order more tests.


You might not have seen them before :) Nell, but I did post them here before, from Rose Montague's post on JREF. And I passed them all on to Pete, to share with the pro-Meredith community,and as a reminder, that the other pictures were posted here first on dot net. He gave me the credit, but as I pointed out, we all share the same goal.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:21 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Thanks for pointing that out Ergon.

I hadn't seen them before.

I remember some time ago it was discussed if the handle should have been opened to make further tests and I thought judging by the description of the knife that there was not much hope to find anything. I changed my mind after seeing these photos.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:25 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Michael wrote:
Just tweeted by Andrea Vogt:

Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 2m
#amandaknox billed to appear via Skype on Italy news show Porta a Porta Tues. Will host @BrunoVespa have details on DNA analysis?

http://urbanpost.it/porta-a-porta-antic ... a-franzoni
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:01 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Thanks Nell, and that's a good point. Judge Nencini can indeed, order further tests.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:59 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Nell wrote:
Thanks for pointing that out Ergon.

I hadn't seen them before.

I remember some time ago it was discussed if the handle should have been opened to make further tests and I thought judging by the description of the knife that there was not much hope to find anything. I changed my mind after seeing these photos.



That's what I thought, well almost, I'd never thought the knife shouldn't be opened, because fact is, even professional chef's knives are almost never perfect, even when new, and it is well known that if they are not made from one long piece of steel, they break more easily than a long piece of steel with the handle placed on that (so we used to look out for that because the cheaper method of making a knife makes them not as well-suited to intensive professional use), however, a shorter piece of steel is cheaper, so if one opens many a knife, it will most likely turn out that the steel either is more like a rod or only goes a little way into the handle, this means these are more prone to pressure, the knife in the picture is a cheap knife and OLD, that can be seen because of the tiny wells, which is similar to rubber hosing, etc.; when it gets old it gets crumbly, perishing, and is therefore illegal for fuels, etc., this knife has that exact same look, it is certainly damaged, and I sincerely hope someone brings it to the attention of the presiding judge or he realises it needs further examination. The opening is exactly the tiny amount of space needed for blood to wash on in down, and the cleaning may have helped to dilute blood a bit making it even more easy for it to get in between the handle, I would imagine that should the knife be opened, LOTS of Meredith's DNA in blood may be found there.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:24 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

It looks like Kate Beckinsale has now been cast in the new Michael Winterbottom film coming up.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:42 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:57 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Thanks Max. So, an interview already prerecorded out of the can. Yawn.

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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

The bookshelf background didn't help RS look any smarter and I doubt it will have that effect on Amanda and Edda...
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ava wrote:
The bookshelf background didn't help RS look any smarter and I doubt it will have that effect on Amanda and Edda...


Ha ha, you don't miss a trick!

I reckon that's one of those fake bookcases.

Mum is looking at her like, in a questioning way, god knows what odd behaviour she just MUST have been showing, you can't just do something such as this then act like everything is a-okay, it's bound to make a person start coming across as very strange, even to mother, even if whatshername already did have those quirky ways, hiding such as this is way beyond notions of quirkiness.

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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

She seems to be going for the haggard look.
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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Or maybe trying to look a bit like Cara Delevingne (of the upcoming Winterbottom film).
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Immediately after the interview Vespa will continue by talking about Annamaria Franzoni who murdered her very small son, Samuele, Carlo Torre the same expert defending Knox, defended her, he had an outlandishly unbelievable theory to excuse Marie, it failed and the high court took a very grave view of everything Marie Franzoni had done while out of prison in order to take away the authority's ability and right to follow the course of justice, she did this by creating a media circus, they called it media mayhem, and it is identical to what Knox has been up to via her family, and which Sollecito latched onto.
The woman got to see her other two sons lately, one she conceived after murdering the other, and then she had to go to jail. She also gets to venture outside the prison on occasion, god knows whether she ever admiotted her guit, she sews bags as part of rehabilitation via work programmes.

She absolutely denied she had any mental problems but had the court agreed, she would hve received a life sentence, in fact, she did, it was reduced to 16 years not for the same reasons Guede's was, but because in spite of her self-take the court thought she was mentally deranged/unfit.

There is much disagreement with yet another film, Colin Firth, Cara De le whatshername the model, oh here it is Cara Delevingne, a party girl, out jet setting about, but also a cocaine user, she was photographed this summer dropping a small package of it in front of her house, but as she is so pretty (matter of opinion) and so in at the moment, nothing has happened to her, she is fron a well-off family. and is in fact not an actress, but what in the world, whatever she is, good or bad, is she doing opting in for a film such as this?

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Last edited by zorba on Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:29 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ava wrote:
Or maybe trying to look a bit like Cara Delevingne (of the upcoming Winterbottom film).

Yeah but Delevingne will not be playing her.

This shit disgusts me.

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Offline dgfred


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Michael wrote:
Hey, dgfred, happy birthday mate!!! :) :) :)



Thanks, my friend. drin-)

I am still holding strong just under the half-century mark. d-))
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Happy Birthday, dgfred!
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Michael wrote:
It looks like Kate Beckinsale has now been cast in the new Michael Winterbottom film coming up.


Thanks Michael. A little bit more detail:

Kate Beckinsale Joins Michael Winterbottom’s ‘The Face Of An Angel’
By Mike Fleming Jr.

Kate Beckinsale is set to join Daniel Bruhl and Cara Delevingne in The Face Of An Angel, a drama that Michael Winterbottom will direct from a script by Paul Viragh. The film is based on the book Angel Face by Barbie Latza Nadeau, and the plot bears some resemblance to the travails of Amanda Knox. [...] Here, Delevingne will play the suspect in a murder, and Beckinsale plays a journalist pursuing the case. Bruhl plays a documentary filmmaker who’s also trying to get to the bottom of things. [...] Beckinsale, who’s repped by UTA and Media Talent Group’s Geyer Kosinski, most recently completed the Brad Anderson-directed Eliza Graves with Michael Caine, Ben Kingsley and Jim Sturgess.


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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

zorba wrote:
Ava wrote:
Or maybe trying to look a bit like Cara Delevingne (of the upcoming Winterbottom film).

Yeah but Delevingne will not be playing her.



This is Cara.


I guess we'll have to wait to see who she plays.
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Offline dgfred


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Quirky enough I think.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:38 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Won't go into it, never saw the point of Nadeau writing a book, same with others, at least have the entire picture before you cash in.

The point of a film in relationship to an event where the blood from the mudrder isn't even really dry, considering the case is still going on, is to me as tasteless as it gets, and then to see these people getting involved, all it will do is go to Knox's head, it's then in some way, just as if the murder is some kind of entertainment.

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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

zorba wrote:
Ava wrote:
Or maybe trying to look a bit like Cara Delevingne (of the upcoming Winterbottom film).

Yeah but Delevingne will not be playing her.

This shit disgusts me.


Maybe she will, after all? (see article guermantes posted), but it doesn't really matter.
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Offline chami


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

HaPpY bIrThDaY, DG
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ava wrote:
zorba wrote:
Ava wrote:
Or maybe trying to look a bit like Cara Delevingne (of the upcoming Winterbottom film).

Yeah but Delevingne will not be playing her.

This shit disgusts me.


Maybe she will, after all? (see article guermantes posted), but it doesn't really matter.
**
Happy birthday, dgfred :)



I knew about this stuff some time and spoke about it by not speaking about it, in the UK media they reported on Cara, and that she would not be playing Knox but if it is supposedly not about Knox, then nobody is playing Knox, and this too is why to me it id all a crock of shit, because there are enough things in the world and why would some producer need this, seems to me because he has no real imagination, and I don't not care about the name or reputation anyone has, as a so-called great filmy person. Say filmy but big film person because filmy applies more to all of these tongues that are hanging out.. who they think they is Ironstein? or how you spell him aha.

Anyway, I left browser open (by accident) with that photo of her with the tongue hanging out and every time I clicked on something it appeared and frightened the life out of me, very nice if people want to stick their tongues out but a good idea would be to give it a good old scrub with one of those hand-size brushes for scrubbing feet, obviously an unused one.

The report from Guermantes is from some Hollywood thing so I doubt it's accurate, as this is not going to be a Hollywood movie I think, it's got truckloads of Brits in it.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

About that it doesn't matter who she plays, I think it does, because Cara is a bit of nut in her own right, but not bad, fancy playing someone like Knox, it's not good for her (delevingue), I cannot explain or will not but it isn't good, fancy associating with all of that.

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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

No need to explain,Zorba. a picture's worth a thousand words.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

zorba wrote:
Nell wrote:
Thanks for pointing that out Ergon.

I hadn't seen them before.

I remember some time ago it was discussed if the handle should have been opened to make further tests and I thought judging by the description of the knife that there was not much hope to find anything. I changed my mind after seeing these photos.



That's what I thought, well almost, I'd never thought the knife shouldn't be opened, because fact is, even professional chef's knives are almost never perfect, even when new, and it is well known that if they are not made from one long piece of steel, they break more easily than a long piece of steel with the handle placed on that (so we used to look out for that because the cheaper method of making a knife makes them not as well-suited to intensive professional use), however, a shorter piece of steel is cheaper, so if one opens many a knife, it will most likely turn out that the steel either is more like a rod or only goes a little way into the handle, this means these are more prone to pressure, the knife in the picture is a cheap knife and OLD, that can be seen because of the tiny wells, which is similar to rubber hosing, etc.; when it gets old it gets crumbly, perishing, and is therefore illegal for fuels, etc., this knife has that exact same look, it is certainly damaged, and I sincerely hope someone brings it to the attention of the presiding judge or he realises it needs further examination. The opening is exactly the tiny amount of space needed for blood to wash on in down, and the cleaning may have helped to dilute blood a bit making it even more easy for it to get in between the handle, I would imagine that should the knife be opened, LOTS of Meredith's DNA in blood may be found there.



Bongiorno did put it to Nencini that the knife should also be opened and he refused that request, but did so with the caveat that he reserves the right to request more tests at a later time, if he feels it appropriate.

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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

zorba wrote:
Ava wrote:
zorba wrote:
Ava wrote:
Or maybe trying to look a bit like Cara Delevingne (of the upcoming Winterbottom film).

Yeah but Delevingne will not be playing her.

This shit disgusts me.


Maybe she will, after all? (see article guermantes posted), but it doesn't really matter.
**
Happy birthday, dgfred :)



I knew about this stuff some time and spoke about it by not speaking about it, in the Uk media they reported on Cara, and that she would not be playing Knox but if it is supposedly not about Knox, then nobody is plsaying Knox, and this too is why to me it id all a crock of shit, because there are enough things in the world and why would some producrr need this, seems to me because he has no real imagination, and I don't not care aboyt the name or reputation anyone has, as a so-called great filmy person.

Anyway, I left browser open with that photo of her with the tongue hanging out nd every time I clicked on something it appeared and frightened the life ot of me, very nice if people want to stick their tongues out but a good idea would be to give it a good old scrub with one og those hand brushed for scrubbing feeet, obviously and unused one.

The report from Guermantes is from some Hollywood thing so I doubt it's accurate, as this is not going to be a Hollywood movie I think, it's got truckloads of Brits in it.


Zorba, iirc it was first reported that she was going to star in the movie, then she herself stated that she wasn't going to play AK, now they're saying she's going to play a murder suspect. I think it's possible she will be playing a character resembling AK (since AK herself most likely won't be in the movie at all, as you say).
The reason why you think she shouldn't be playing someone like AK is probably one of the main reasons she was hired in the first place, I would guess...
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

I think in this new interview she'll probably repeat what she had already said on Quarto Grado a couple of weeks ago; she knows her lines by heart now.

Porta a Porta ‏@RaiPortaaPorta
Quote:
#Amanda says: "my truth about that night." Follow tonight # portaaporta


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Quote:
Interview with #amandaknox tonight streaming live at 11:30 pm # http://portaaporta.rai.it by portaaporta


11:30 pm (GMT+1) - 6 = 5:30 pm (ET)
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

The more I think about this interview, the odder it seems to me. Why an Italian interview? How will that help her?
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Michael wrote:
zorba wrote:
Nell wrote:
Thanks for pointing that out Ergon.

I hadn't seen them before.

I remember some time ago it was discussed if the handle should have been opened to make further tests and I thought judging by the description of the knife that there was not much hope to find anything. I changed my mind after seeing these photos.



That's what I thought, well almost, I'd never thought the knife shouldn't be opened, because fact is, even professional chef's knives are almost never perfect, even when new, and it is well known that if they are not made from one long piece of steel, they break more easily than a long piece of steel with the handle placed on that (so we used to look out for that because the cheaper method of making a knife makes them not as well-suited to intensive professional use), however, a shorter piece of steel is cheaper, so if one opens many a knife, it will most likely turn out that the steel either is more like a rod or only goes a little way into the handle, this means these are more prone to pressure, the knife in the picture is a cheap knife and OLD, that can be seen because of the tiny wells, which is similar to rubber hosing, etc.; when it gets old it gets crumbly, perishing, and is therefore illegal for fuels, etc., this knife has that exact same look, it is certainly damaged, and I sincerely hope someone brings it to the attention of the presiding judge or he realises it needs further examination. The opening is exactly the tiny amount of space needed for blood to wash on in down, and the cleaning may have helped to dilute blood a bit making it even more easy for it to get in between the handle, I would imagine that should the knife be opened, LOTS of Meredith's DNA in blood may be found there.



Bongiorno did put it to Nencini that the knife should also be opened and he refused that request, but did so with the caveat that he reserves the right to request more tests at a later time, if he feels it appropriate.



Wow, how odd that she would be requesting it, I expect with her bird-like face peering around like it owns every twig she can perch on, he probably said no just to not let her get any smart ideas about who is running the show

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Napia5 wrote:
The more I think about this interview, the odder it seems to me. Why an Italian interview? How will that help her?



When you are in Italy you hear a really different story, they all think they're guilty.

Thing is the Italians are a cynical, even piss taking lot, things like this, I mean, I can hear them now, in Italian, Ma, madanna mia, cé brutto questa regazza, I mean how could anyone their like her after she has made Italy out to be some kind of pre Sodom & Gomorra outlet, I reckon she'll be about as popular as A pork pie at a Jewish Wedding.

I bet any money that Sollecito was given some grief by Italians too.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ava wrote:
zorba wrote:
Ava wrote:
zorba wrote:
Ava wrote:
Or maybe trying to look a bit like Cara Delevingne (of the upcoming Winterbottom film).

Yeah but Delevingne will not be playing her.

This shit disgusts me.


Maybe she will, after all? (see article guermantes posted), but it doesn't really matter.
**
Happy birthday, dgfred :)



I knew about this stuff some time and spoke about it by not speaking about it, in the Uk media they reported on Cara, and that she would not be playing Knox but if it is supposedly not about Knox, then nobody is plsaying Knox, and this too is why to me it id all a crock of shit, because there are enough things in the world and why would some producrr need this, seems to me because he has no real imagination, and I don't not care aboyt the name or reputation anyone has, as a so-called great filmy person.

Anyway, I left browser open with that photo of her with the tongue hanging out nd every time I clicked on something it appeared and frightened the life ot of me, very nice if people want to stick their tongues out but a good idea would be to give it a good old scrub with one og those hand brushed for scrubbing feeet, obviously and unused one.

The report from Guermantes is from some Hollywood thing so I doubt it's accurate, as this is not going to be a Hollywood movie I think, it's got truckloads of Brits in it.


Zorba, iirc it was first reported that she was going to star in the movie, then she herself stated that she wasn't going to play AK, now they're saying she's going to play a murder suspect. I think it's possible she will be playing a character resembling AK (since AK herself most likely won't be in the movie at all, as you say).
The reason why you think she shouldn't be playing someone like AK is probably one of the main reasons she was hired in the first place, I would guess...


Hi Ava,

They must be making it up as they go along, kinda copying Oh-No-Not-Her-Again & Sosolito

Guer, and indeed, not again, the MY version.
She forgot the p, the e and the r

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Napia5 wrote:
The more I think about this interview, the odder it seems to me. Why an Italian interview? How will that help her?



They don't like people being up for murder then trying to run the case on telly, still, that is exactly what they like to think they are doing.

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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

zorba wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
The more I think about this interview, the odder it seems to me. Why an Italian interview? How will that help her?



When you are in Italy you hear a really different story, they all think they're guilty.

Thing is the Italians are a cynical, even piss taking lot, things like this, I mean, I can hear them now, in Italian, Ma, madanna mia, cé brutto questa regazza, I mean how could anyone their like her after she has made Italy out to be some kind of pre Sodom & Gomorra outlet, I reckon she'll be about as popular as A pork pie at a Jewish Wedding.

I bet any money that Sollecito was given some grief by Italians too.


Yes, I agree, which is why I think it's strange. Aren't the American media stars vying for her words?
Maybe she wants to whip up the anti-Amanda sentiment in Italy, so it hits the news, and then she will have something to defend if she gives an interview here. Perhaps the Italian population will be outraged over the fact that she is willing to give interviews while failing to appear in court, and Italian news reports will reflect this outrage. Then she will be able to point to this outrage as proof that she is being persecuted.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:29 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Happy Birthday dgfred! All the best and a wonderful new year! hugz-)
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Amanda Knox says she is paying for Italian police mistakes
By Catherine Hornby
ROME | Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:42pm EDT

Knox said in an interview due to be aired on Italian state RAI television on Tuesday night the case was taking so long to conclude because of a botched police investigation.

"I think I am paying for the mistakes of the police, of the investigators who don't want to admit that they are wrong," she said during a prerecorded Skype interview with RAI's Porta a Porta program.
...

"NO FEMME FATALE"

"I hope that this new trial will find me innocent and will look at these facts ... let's look at this all in full, but let's find my innocence," Knox said.
...
Knox, who was portrayed as a sex-obsessed "she-devil" by prosecutors, told Porta a Porta she was just a normal person and the image of her they had presented was false.

"I am not the femme fatale criminal fantasy they describe. This person does not exist. They put a mask on me, they put evil on me, but they didn't try to see who I really was," she said.


REUTERS

'Great' Amanda Knox line: '...let's look at this all in full, but let's find my innocence." ;)

How does the reporter know what Knox says in an interview that hasn't even aired yet? Strange.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Marsilio Editori ‏@MarsilioEditori 53m

Roberto Costantini, author of "You are evil" and "At the root of evil," a guest at tonight @ RaiPortaaPorta episode on the Amanda Knox case
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Offline dgfred


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Thanks for the birthday wishes. You guys and gals are great.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Maresca will also be on Porta a Porta tonight! :)

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

GOOGLE TRANSLATION:

PERUGIA Amanda : "I and Raffaele two soldiers who fought a war "
Process Video Meredith : The second hearing of the appeals process -bis, the protagonists speak


Perugia , October 15, 2013 - " I do not trust to return to the country in which I have been unjustly detained ." Amanda Knox from Seattle talks and defends herself in an interview aired on " Eastenders ". The transmission of Bruno Vespa dedicated an episode to the new track "i" , analyzed by the police of Ris, a part of the appeals process for the murder of Meredith Kercher .

And in transmission Francesco Sollecito announce the return of the son Raphael in the day when the experts explain to the judges of the Force the outcome of the analysis on micro- traces of DNA found on the knife. There would be elements that are suppose this is the profile of Amanda . During the interview the young U.S. talk of friendship with Raphael. " We are two soldiers who fought a war ."
Edda Mellas , mother of Amanda , however reveals that the whole family follows a course of psychotherapy to overcome the trauma of four years ' imprisonment. In the studio also the lawyer for the Kercher , Francesco Maresca.



LA NAZIONE

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THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Latest:

Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 38s
Porta a Porta: Brindani (Oggi): If #amandaknox DNA is on knife, it shows it was not washed. Bruzzone: DNA may not be decisive factor.


Sallyoo ‏@Sallyoo 1m
Porta Porta on air Rai Uno, Sollecito's Dad at the moment. #amandaknox

Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 18m
Porta a Porta has huge plastic model of Via Della Pergola 7, where #meredithkercher was killed. RS will be present Nov. 6, father says.

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THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 9m

The African man falsely accused (Patrick Lumumba) on Porta a Porta: An innocent person could never have done what #amandaknox did to me.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 59s
Francesco Sollecito: I am scared. My son is terrified. But my son cannot have a future if he hasn’t resolved problems w/Italian justice


Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 58s
#amandaknox via Skype on Porta a Porta: "I was found innocent. There is not a trace of me in the room where my friend was killed."

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THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Sallyoo ‏@Sallyoo 4m

Porta Porta on air Rai Uno, Sollecito's Dad at the moment. #amandaknox

---------------------------

So, is Porta a Porta on air right now? I thought it would begin in a minute?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Sallyoo ‏@Sallyoo 31s
Castellini (director of Corriere dell Umbria) pointing out that MK DNA already found on knife. #amandaknox


(yes, it's on now)

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Other guests on Porta a Porta tonight:

Poalo Crepet, Sabina Castelfranco

With the opening of the new process Porta a Porta back to take care of the Crime of Perugia. With an exclusive interview with Amanda Knox and other important evidence.
...
We'll talk with Roberta Bruzzone, Paolo Crepet, Roberto Costantini, Sabina Castelfranco, with the lawyer Maresca and the editor of the weekly Oggi (Today) Brindani.


RAI 1 PORTA A PORTA
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:47 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 35s
in pre-recorded Porta a Porta skype intvu w/ mom at her side: #amandaknox (in Italian): "I'm just like you. Just a person like any other."


Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 53s
Maresca on Porta a Porta: Crime scene is is not just Meredith's room, but also nearby bathroom where suspects washed, cleaned after.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:58 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

LCNO ‏@LucianoPintus 1m
Ancora a parlare di Amanda knox #portaaporta

Google: "Still talking about Amanda knox # portaaporta"
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 55s
#amandaknox on Porta a Porta: I'm paying for mistakes of police and investigators who didn’t want to admit they made mistakes.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Michael wrote:
...
(yes, it's on now)


Thanks, I see, it started at 23:20 (not at 23:30)

Porta a Porta
In onda: 23:20 - 00:55 Durata: 95 minuti

La seconda serata di Rai Uno nel salotto di Bruno Vespa: con i suoi ospiti approfondisce i temi di attualità, cronaca e politica

"The second evening on Rai Uno in the salon of Bruno Vespa: with his guests [he] explores the current issues, news and politics"

RAI TV

I hope they will upload the full episode to their website.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 1m
Same tiresome arguments by all sides for 6 yrs on #amandaknox case. Turning off now. To Sicily tomorrow on more pressing story. Ciao!

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Napia5 wrote:
zorba wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
The more I think about this interview, the odder it seems to me. Why an Italian interview? How will that help her?



When you are in Italy you hear a really different story, they all think they're guilty.

Thing is the Italians are a cynical, even piss taking lot, things like this, I mean, I can hear them now, in Italian, Ma, madonna mio, cé brutto questa regazza, I mean how could anyone there like her after she has made Italy out to be some kind of pre Sodom & Gomorra outlet, I reckon she'll be about as popular as a pork pie at a Jewish Wedding.

I bet any money that Sollecito was given some grief by Italians too.


Yes, I agree, which is why I think it's strange. Aren't the American media stars vying for her words?
Maybe she wants to whip up the anti-Amanda sentiment in Italy, so it hits the news, and then she will have something to defend if she gives an interview here. Perhaps the Italian population will be outraged over the fact that she is willing to give interviews while failing to appear in court, and Italian news reports will reflect this outrage. Then she will be able to point to this outrage as proof that she is being persecuted.



You too, never miss a twist or turn, I thought this, while I was writing that stuff about the situation, but well, there are grounds for not liking her, not now and it has nought to do with just for the fun of it stuff, that is, was and will always be a simple-minded take the Seattle Primates have, in those few streets, as surely not all Seattleareans are like this.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

PERUGIA Amanda : "I and Raffaele two soldiers who fought a war "

Yes, and murdered Meredith

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Sallyoo ‏@Sallyoo 44m
Psychiatrist on Porta Porta (Crepi [sic]) observed there is no extradition agreement with Santa Domingo! #amandaknox #raffaelesollecito

Sallyoo ‏@Sallyoo 42m
IMO PortaPorta is coming over rather pro-guilter. Unusual for TV to tell the truth! #amandaknox

Sallyoo ‏@Sallyoo 41m
Castellini very sound on legal status of trials, too. Maresca clear on this also.#amandaknox #portaporta

Sallyoo ‏@Sallyoo 42m
Seems to have finished with #amandaknox and #raffaelesollecito PortaPorta. Worth a watch if it gets onto youtube, it seemed pretty solid.

The faces of the Meredith Kercher murder trial (Porta a Porta photo gallery)

RAI TV
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

zorba wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
zorba wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
The more I think about this interview, the odder it seems to me. Why an Italian interview? How will that help her?



When you are in Italy you hear a really different story, they all think they're guilty.

Thing is the Italians are a cynical, even piss taking lot, things like this, I mean, I can hear them now, in Italian, Ma, madonna mio, cé brutto questa regazza, I mean how could anyone there like her after she has made Italy out to be some kind of pre Sodom & Gomorra outlet, I reckon she'll be about as popular as a pork pie at a Jewish Wedding.

I bet any money that Sollecito was given some grief by Italians too.


Yes, I agree, which is why I think it's strange. Aren't the American media stars vying for her words?
Maybe she wants to whip up the anti-Amanda sentiment in Italy, so it hits the news, and then she will have something to defend if she gives an interview here. Perhaps the Italian population will be outraged over the fact that she is willing to give interviews while failing to appear in court, and Italian news reports will reflect this outrage. Then she will be able to point to this outrage as proof that she is being persecuted.



You too, never miss a twist or turn, I thought this, while I was writing that stuff about the situation, but well, there are grounds for not liking her, not now and it has nought to do with just for the fun of it stuff, that is, was and will always be a simple-minded take the Seattle Primates have, in those few streets, as surely not all Seattleareans are like this.


I just admit when I'm confused. It makes no sense to me. I am dependent upon others to translate the show, as I don't understand Italian, and Twitter is so abbreviated that I don't get too much from it.
It appears that there was a pre-recorded interview with Knox, and the others were live? So Knox actually didn't take part in a round-table sort of discussion, do I have that right?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

La Nazione photo gallery

Amanda Knox interviewed on Porta a Porta by Bruno Vespa

http://multimedia.quotidiano.net/?tipo=photo&media=80897
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

A message from Bruce Fischer:

The Amanda Knox & Raffaele Sollecito case

Tune in on Tuesday October 15, at 9 PM CDT [10 PM EDT]

Injustice Anywhere wrote:
On this week's show we will be discussing the Amanda Knox & Raffaele Sollecito case with retired Superior Court Judge Mike Heavey and retired FBI Agent Steve Moore.

Amanda and Raffaele were wrongfully convicted in December 2009, for the murder of Meredith Kercher in November 2007. Both were acquitted on appeal in October of 2011.

Unfortunately, common sense was thrown out the window in March of this year when the Italian Supreme Court overturned the acquittals, sending the case back to the appellate level for review. The third trial began on September 30, and is expected to wrap up at the end of November.

We will be taking calls in the final segment. Please call in with any comments or questions: (347) 850-1478.


BLOGTALKRADIO
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:15 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Napia5 wrote:
zorba wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
zorba wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
The more I think about this interview, the odder it seems to me. Why an Italian interview? How will that help her?



When you are in Italy you hear a really different story, they all think they're guilty.

Thing is the Italians are a cynical, even piss taking lot, things like this, I mean, I can hear them now, in Italian, Ma, madonna mio, cé brutto questa regazza, I mean how could anyone there like her after she has made Italy out to be some kind of pre Sodom & Gomorra outlet, I reckon she'll be about as popular as a pork pie at a Jewish Wedding.

I bet any money that Sollecito was given some grief by Italians too.


Yes, I agree, which is why I think it's strange. Aren't the American media stars vying for her words?
Maybe she wants to whip up the anti-Amanda sentiment in Italy, so it hits the news, and then she will have something to defend if she gives an interview here. Perhaps the Italian population will be outraged over the fact that she is willing to give interviews while failing to appear in court, and Italian news reports will reflect this outrage. Then she will be able to point to this outrage as proof that she is being persecuted.



You too, never miss a twist or turn, I thought this, while I was writing that stuff about the situation, but well, there are grounds for not liking her, not now and it has nought to do with just for the fun of it stuff, that is, was and will always be a simple-minded take the Seattle Primates have, in those few streets, as surely not all Seattleareans are like this.


I just admit when I'm confused. It makes no sense to me. I am dependent upon others to translate the show, as I don't understand Italian, and Twitter is so abbreviated that I don't get too much from it.
It appears that there was a pre-recorded interview with Knox, and the others were live? So Knox actually didn't take part in a round-table sort of discussion, do I have that right?


She gave one of her many speeches, as dictators do

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:17 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Amanda Knox trial -- understanding knife DNA evidence
10/15/2013

TEKJOURNALISMUK
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:31 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Hi, guermantes. I'm not able to get the TEKJOURNAL link to work.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:41 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Thanks. I've corrected the link now.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:10 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

guermantes wrote:
Thanks. I've corrected the link now.


Thanks. This is an excellent article. It should be required reading for the media who are reporting.
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Offline malvern


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:41 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Other news or comic relief, Judge Heavey on Bruce's show was comparing the Emperor's
New Clothes to the SC!s reluctance to realize there is no case. Laughing at his own cleverness, he proceeded to summarize the Anderson tale having just read it for the first time I guess. He thinks the SC should be embaressed!!
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:32 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Oct 15 Porta a Porta episode is now available to watch online:

VIDEO RAI
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 6:03 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

The UK article is excellent, I don't remember ever reading one as well-written and accurate as that.

That's a light point in a dark day affair, since there is hardly ever an article I can take as they are all awful.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 6:37 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   



Last edited by Jester on Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:04 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

so, what a job, off to bed for 2 hours, at 10 am. I hope someone adopts me and says, son, you never have to work again, here have a biscuit, lie down, holiday, tea, sleep

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:28 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

zorba wrote:
so, what a job, off to bed for 2 hours, at 10 am. I hope someone adopts me and says, son, you never have to work again, here have a biscuit, lie down, holiday, tea, sleep


The life of a dog can be envied, at times, but bike trails ... not for the dogs.





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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:38 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Knox came closest to cracking when she mentioned the black guy that she met at the basketball court on the night of the murder - the black guy that was there when Meredith was murdered. She gave the name of the wrong guy, but she did cover her butt in case anyone saw her at the basketball court meeting with a black guy.

It seems that she, Sollecito and Guede have a silence pack. Surely Guede would not let Sollecito and Knox suffer for years, six so far, if he knew that they were innocent! Is there that much of an advantage for him to remain silent, would his truthful testimony of the night of the murder add more years to his sentence?

That is, if he truthfully stated that he committed the murder by himself, would that make any difference to the 16 year sentence ... could it add years to his sentence (given that it has been ruled that he did not act alone) as a murderous culprit? Could such an admission delay parole applications beyond 2016?
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Offline McCall


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

guermantes wrote:
Sallyoo ‏@Sallyoo 44m
Psychiatrist on Porta Porta (Crepi [sic]) observed there is no extradition agreement with Santa Domingo! #amandaknox #raffaelesollecito


This is one of the things the inexperienced fugitive falls for. The lack of an extradition treaty does not mean you don't get extradited. A different Italian fugitive also thought he could go to DR but the local authoritative found him and had him in handcuffs on a plain back to Italy the same day. This was just a couple of weeks ago and after Sollecito took up residency there.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Jester wrote:
Knox came closest to cracking when she mentioned the black guy that she met at the basketball court on the night of the murder - the black guy that was there when Meredith was murdered. She gave the name of the wrong guy, but she did cover her butt in case anyone saw her at the basketball court meeting with a black guy.

It seems that she, Sollecito and Guede have a silence pack. Surely Guede would not let Sollecito and Knox suffer for years, six so far, if he knew that they were innocent! Is there that much of an advantage for him to remain silent, would his truthful testimony of the night of the murder add more years to his sentence?

That is, if he truthfully stated that he committed the murder by himself, would that make any difference to the 16 year sentence ... could it add years to his sentence (given that it has been ruled that he did not act alone) as a murderous culprit? Could such an admission delay parole applications beyond 2016?



No. His charges and sentence have been finalised by the High Court. The only way he'd see an increase is if he were to confess (and be successfully tried for) new crimes for which he's never been previously charged.

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THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Underhill


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Michael wrote:
Jester wrote:
Knox came closest to cracking when she mentioned the black guy that she met at the basketball court on the night of the murder - the black guy that was there when Meredith was murdered. She gave the name of the wrong guy, but she did cover her butt in case anyone saw her at the basketball court meeting with a black guy.

It seems that she, Sollecito and Guede have a silence pack. Surely Guede would not let Sollecito and Knox suffer for years, six so far, if he knew that they were innocent! Is there that much of an advantage for him to remain silent, would his truthful testimony of the night of the murder add more years to his sentence?

That is, if he truthfully stated that he committed the murder by himself, would that make any difference to the 16 year sentence ... could it add years to his sentence (given that it has been ruled that he did not act alone) as a murderous culprit? Could such an admission delay parole applications beyond 2016?



No. His charges and sentence have been finalised by the High Court. The only way he'd see an increase is if he were to confess (and be successfully tried for) new crimes for which he's never been previously charged.


Yes, indeed! Because, contrary to popular mythology, Italy does not permit double jeopardy. :)
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Offline Slade


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Noticed Peter Q's lead article on TJMK is: Carabineri Labs Might Prove Fourth And Conclusive Scenario For The Mixed DNA Samples In The House

In short, will the Carabinieri RIS be able to show strong evidence that AK was bleeding from a cut to her hand that yielded all those mixed DNA spots (with AK's DNA likely from her blood)?

I would speculate that it was as likely that AK's hand slipped from the knife handle onto the blade when she was trying to remove the knife from dear Meredith's neck, than plunging it in. Been trying to find the area in Massei report where one of the medical examiners described deep tissues in her neck were shredded as if someone had struggled to remove the knife.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

I have been reading some of the translations of the interview.
One thing that really stands out is the way that Knox depersonalizes everyone she refers to. Never a name, with the exception of Aviello. It is always 'they', 'their', 'he'. She wants distance from all of them.
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Offline Slade


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Jester wrote:
Knox came closest to cracking when she mentioned the black guy that she met at the basketball court on the night of the murder - the black guy that was there when Meredith was murdered. She gave the name of the wrong guy, but she did cover her butt in case anyone saw her at the basketball court meeting with a black guy.

It seems that she, Sollecito and Guede have a silence pack. Surely Guede would not let Sollecito and Knox suffer for years, six so far, if he knew that they were innocent! Is there that much of an advantage for him to remain silent, would his truthful testimony of the night of the murder add more years to his sentence?

That is, if he truthfully stated that he committed the murder by himself, would that make any difference to the 16 year sentence ... could it add years to his sentence (given that it has been ruled that he did not act alone) as a murderous culprit? Could such an admission delay parole applications beyond 2016?


Must admit I made a mistake in an earlier post partially referenced to you. oop-)
I wrote that Curatolo saw AK & RS in Piazza Grimana at 11:30PM -- but after re-reading about Curatolo's testimony in Massei, saw Curatolo testified that he left his bench at 11 PM and by that time AK & RS were gone from the Piazza. In that case, appears as if the kids waited for Rudy for an hour and a half before heading for the cottage. Understand Rudy didn't have a cell phone, must have been hell for them waiting that long; poor things.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Guede simply cannot face his part in it, to admit that, for him is too much, because obviously it is as dirty as what the others did, only, he brutalised Meredith through sexual force while the others did perhaps the same only they did more, they murdered her. Despite it being a terrible thing what he did, he unlike the others, seems to feel ashamed while the others apparently do not, they feel they can go on forever making up lies on top of lies, it's something like the Russian doll thing,. you take one off then there's another iside and another and another.

He wishes to continue as far as he can, relationships he had with people, he did a terrible thing, or things, however, how would his supportive friends and he has some I believe, feel about it all if they were to be told or find out that he in fact was there but did try to rape Meredith?

I think friends, exit, door...
things will never again be the same and he wants things to continue as they were, he cannot face it and so through that, though he would love to tell on them properly.... he cannot. He cannot bear the idea of facing his friends and revealing his part.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Reply to someone at the Tek Journal website article about the DNA on the knife.

Quote:
The C&V report (conclusions) does not specify there was starch in trace "I". Please state your reasoning.
It also indicates that Dr. Stefanoni did test for blood along the blade, so what's your point, exactly?
You do understand that Trace "I" is at the juncture of the handle and the blade, so, since there has been no evidence so far that the knife was plunged into the victim to its full depth, it is unlikely that her DNA or blood would be found there?
So, in conclusion, and despite all smoke screens by the defense, the court will still have to determine whether the knife was used to murder Meredith Kercher.
All the evidence so far points to that conclusion.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Jester wrote:
zorba wrote:
so, what a job, off to bed for 2 hours, at 10 am. I hope someone adopts me and says, son, you never have to work again, here have a biscuit, lie down, holiday, tea, sleep


The life of a dog can be envied, at times, but bike trails ... not for the dogs.





Image



Imagine, you are out camping, you pitch your tent up, wake up in the morning to see you are on a ride with a million foot drop below, incredible pics.

Though just camping out there might not be the done thing I'm thinking Britain, rather than bear country, etc. I need that nature, but not ants in my pants.. or anywhere else!
Do the ants head down south during winter time? I know I should, would, if I could.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

By the way I had my 2 hour nap and am shattered.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:14 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Napia5 wrote:
I have been reading some of the translations of the interview.
One thing that really stands out is the way that Knox depersonalizes everyone she refers to. Never a name, with the exception of Aviello. It is always 'they', 'their', 'he'. She wants distance from all of them.



Had no time, energy to press more than a key or two, think I'll take a look at Vespa, wonder how he went from scooters to telly?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

tried watching, but with Knox and her act, I had to switch it off, Oggi fellow was bad enough knowing what Oggi stands for, the value of such an idiot is not possible to put into terms of minus zero figures.

You get on there do ya hear and tell em you ain't done it.
It's pathetic.

Dad Sol giving it the same pre-emptive bulldozing with made up stuff that has no bearing on reality.

A certain moment you just cannot pity people who are just out to do what they want, for themselves, and are totally dishonest.

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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:38 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Michael wrote:
Jester wrote:
Knox came closest to cracking when she mentioned the black guy that she met at the basketball court on the night of the murder - the black guy that was there when Meredith was murdered. She gave the name of the wrong guy, but she did cover her butt in case anyone saw her at the basketball court meeting with a black guy.

It seems that she, Sollecito and Guede have a silence pack. Surely Guede would not let Sollecito and Knox suffer for years, six so far, if he knew that they were innocent! Is there that much of an advantage for him to remain silent, would his truthful testimony of the night of the murder add more years to his sentence?

That is, if he truthfully stated that he committed the murder by himself, would that make any difference to the 16 year sentence ... could it add years to his sentence (given that it has been ruled that he did not act alone) as a murderous culprit? Could such an admission delay parole applications beyond 2016?


No. His charges and sentence have been finalised by the High Court. The only way he'd see an increase is if he were to confess (and be successfully tried for) new crimes for which he's never been previously charged.


If they were innocent, how is it possible that Guede would not simply say as much.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 6:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Jester wrote:
Michael wrote:
Jester wrote:
Knox came closest to cracking when she mentioned the black guy that she met at the basketball court on the night of the murder - the black guy that was there when Meredith was murdered. She gave the name of the wrong guy, but she did cover her butt in case anyone saw her at the basketball court meeting with a black guy.

It seems that she, Sollecito and Guede have a silence pack. Surely Guede would not let Sollecito and Knox suffer for years, six so far, if he knew that they were innocent! Is there that much of an advantage for him to remain silent, would his truthful testimony of the night of the murder add more years to his sentence?

That is, if he truthfully stated that he committed the murder by himself, would that make any difference to the 16 year sentence ... could it add years to his sentence (given that it has been ruled that he did not act alone) as a murderous culprit? Could such an admission delay parole applications beyond 2016?


No. His charges and sentence have been finalised by the High Court. The only way he'd see an increase is if he were to confess (and be successfully tried for) new crimes for which he's never been previously charged.


If they were innocent, how is it possible that Guede would not simply say as much.


Well, first he'd have to admit his own guilt, so he is hardly going to make real statements on them, as he isn't willing to admit his guilt.

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Offline Slade


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

zorba wrote:
Jester wrote:
Michael wrote:
Jester wrote:
Knox came closest to cracking when she mentioned the black guy that she met at the basketball court on the night of the murder - the black guy that was there when Meredith was murdered. She gave the name of the wrong guy, but she did cover her butt in case anyone saw her at the basketball court meeting with a black guy.

It seems that she, Sollecito and Guede have a silence pack. Surely Guede would not let Sollecito and Knox suffer for years, six so far, if he knew that they were innocent! Is there that much of an advantage for him to remain silent, would his truthful testimony of the night of the murder add more years to his sentence?

That is, if he truthfully stated that he committed the murder by himself, would that make any difference to the 16 year sentence ... could it add years to his sentence (given that it has been ruled that he did not act alone) as a murderous culprit? Could such an admission delay parole applications beyond 2016?


No. His charges and sentence have been finalised by the High Court. The only way he'd see an increase is if he were to confess (and be successfully tried for) new crimes for which he's never been previously charged.


If they were innocent, how is it possible that Guede would not simply say as much.


Well, first he'd have to admit his own guilt, so he is hardly going to make real statements on them, as he isn't willing to admit his guilt.



Being forbidden by law to negotiate even a tiny amount of preferential witness treatment, even for a finally convicted felon like Rudy, is a weakness in the Italian Justice system IMO. Of course, like you posted upthread, Rudy doesn't want to admit to his involvement in the horrible treatment of Meredith, but, if he could reveal the others' participation, explain how they all came to the cottage and what exactly triggered the violence against dear Meredith, then many answers that might otherwise never be known, could be known.

OK, I get that Rudy is not viewed as a 'reliable' witness, but spare him the indignity of having to explain what he did -- his testimony in this appeal may be the final chance to get absolute direct witness testimony that AK & RS -- two hideous, sociopathic murdering pieces of filth belong back in prison beyond any and all doubt! Like it or not, this level of proof is needed to convince those who have continued to express doubt. I would truly hate to see the US block AK's extradition b/c someone's Congressional Rep claims they are unsure about the fairness of the process.

Rudy = detailed testimony matching evidence; final nail!
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Slade wrote:
zorba wrote:
Jester wrote:
Michael wrote:
Jester wrote:
Knox came closest to cracking when she mentioned the black guy that she met at the basketball court on the night of the murder - the black guy that was there when Meredith was murdered. She gave the name of the wrong guy, but she did cover her butt in case anyone saw her at the basketball court meeting with a black guy.

It seems that she, Sollecito and Guede have a silence pack. Surely Guede would not let Sollecito and Knox suffer for years, six so far, if he knew that they were innocent! Is there that much of an advantage for him to remain silent, would his truthful testimony of the night of the murder add more years to his sentence?

That is, if he truthfully stated that he committed the murder by himself, would that make any difference to the 16 year sentence ... could it add years to his sentence (given that it has been ruled that he did not act alone) as a murderous culprit? Could such an admission delay parole applications beyond 2016?


No. His charges and sentence have been finalised by the High Court. The only way he'd see an increase is if he were to confess (and be successfully tried for) new crimes for which he's never been previously charged.


If they were innocent, how is it possible that Guede would not simply say as much.


Well, first he'd have to admit his own guilt, so he is hardly going to make real statements on them, as he isn't willing to admit his guilt.



Being forbidden by law to negotiate even a tiny amount of preferential witness treatment, even for a finally convicted felon like Rudy, is a weakness in the Italian Justice system IMO. Of course, like you posted upthread, Rudy doesn't want to admit to his involvement in the horrible treatment of Meredith, but, if he could reveal the others' participation, explain how they all came to the cottage and what exactly triggered the violence against dear Meredith, then many answers that might otherwise never be known, could be known.

OK, I get that Rudy is not viewed as a 'reliable' witness, but spare him the indignity of having to explain what he did -- his testimony in this appeal may be the final chance to get absolute direct witness testimony that AK & RS -- two hideous, sociopathic murdering pieces of filth belong back in prison beyond any and all doubt! Like it or not, this level of proof is needed to convince those who have continued to express doubt. I would truly hate to see the US block AK's extradition b/c someone's Congressional Rep claims they are unsure about the fairness of the process.

Rudy = detailed testimony matching evidence; final nail!


In my opinion, he has kept the truth of that night from the Kerchers for six long, painful years. They deserve the truth. For whatever reason, he has never been totally forthcoming about Meredith's murder. He will never find redemption until they know what happened to their beautiful daughter, and all responsible are brought to justice.
I have no sympathy for any of his reasons for staying silent.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:05 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Napia5 wrote:
In my opinion, he has kept the truth of that night from the Kerchers for six long, painful years. They deserve the truth. For whatever reason, he has never been totally forthcoming about Meredith's murder. He will never find redemption until they know what happened to their beautiful daughter, and all responsible are brought to justice.
I have no sympathy for any of his reasons for staying silent.



Hi Napski,

You first.

Had a proper night's sleep, awake at 5 though, rather on the early side, I had to go and give the cockrel a wake up call.

I do not feel sympathy either, but I know why he had opted for this strategy.

And isn't it clear after these years but more specifically, once the other two were sure this strategy is the one he is keeping, they became a little more vocal only they too have the same strategy, they cannot say what he did because they in no way are about to say what they did.

It seems to me though, somehow, that Guede could more easily face up to the truth than they could, if only he could see what it would mean if he were to turn over a new leaf and help, it will not get him released faster, but it would not go against any rehabilitation programming where prisoners get to go out of prison during the day to work somewhere, even study, because prisoners do attend universities, learning places, whilst still being prisoners.
You can never wipe out what you did and it couldn't make anyone in their right mind like you, yet to tell the truth at cost to yourself would be absolutely valuable, and the proper beginning to phychological screening processes aiming to dig put wht it was or and still is within you that made and makes you think you can do such things as happened in this case, or if there is no thought at all, what it is in you that's missing that you just follow impulses and why this all is.
Because it's all well and good locking someone up for ages but if they are in an essential sphere, still the person that did those things, how nice is that for society?

Knox on the Vespa thing, listening ot her is frightening, I find her whle tone threatening, and if I listen to her I immediately have flashes of her beng angry, as she was in my opinion when , in my opinion, she murdered Meredith. And I did my best to just listen but when he turned the tears tap on, yet again, and did her voice thing, and her face thing, tha'ts when I couldn't take it, and off it went. I will take another look but skip over what she says as she is saying nothing in many words.

At the point he realises there are others who need him to put them before himself, he will be able to get over himself, tell the truth then reveal whart role he had and why an how an explain exactly what Knox and Sollecito did, and how and wehy, because he KNOWS.

Someone needs to get through to him, his frirnds do and someone needs to get thorough to them too, so that they DO get through to him.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:48 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Slade wrote:
zorba wrote:
Jester wrote:
Michael wrote:
Jester wrote:
Knox came closest to cracking when she mentioned the black guy that she met at the basketball court on the night of the murder - the black guy that was there when Meredith was murdered. She gave the name of the wrong guy, but she did cover her butt in case anyone saw her at the basketball court meeting with a black guy.

It seems that she, Sollecito and Guede have a silence pack. Surely Guede would not let Sollecito and Knox suffer for years, six so far, if he knew that they were innocent! Is there that much of an advantage for him to remain silent, would his truthful testimony of the night of the murder add more years to his sentence?

That is, if he truthfully stated that he committed the murder by himself, would that make any difference to the 16 year sentence ... could it add years to his sentence (given that it has been ruled that he did not act alone) as a murderous culprit? Could such an admission delay parole applications beyond 2016?


No. His charges and sentence have been finalised by the High Court. The only way he'd see an increase is if he were to confess (and be successfully tried for) new crimes for which he's never been previously charged.


If they were innocent, how is it possible that Guede would not simply say as much.


Well, first he'd have to admit his own guilt, so he is hardly going to make real statements on them, as he isn't willing to admit his guilt.



Being forbidden by law to negotiate even a tiny amount of preferential witness treatment, even for a finally convicted felon like Rudy, is a weakness in the Italian Justice system IMO. Of course, like you posted upthread, Rudy doesn't want to admit to his involvement in the horrible treatment of Meredith, but, if he could reveal the others' participation, explain how they all came to the cottage and what exactly triggered the violence against dear Meredith, then many answers that might otherwise never be known, could be known.

OK, I get that Rudy is not viewed as a 'reliable' witness, but spare him the indignity of having to explain what he did -- his testimony in this appeal may be the final chance to get absolute direct witness testimony that AK & RS -- two hideous, sociopathic murdering pieces of filth belong back in prison beyond any and all doubt! Like it or not, this level of proof is needed to convince those who have continued to express doubt. I would truly hate to see the US block AK's extradition b/c someone's Congressional Rep claims they are unsure about the fairness of the process.

Rudy = detailed testimony matching evidence; final nail!



Hi Jester

Indeed he wouldn't (want to) let them suffer for years, nonetheless, that isn't the angle, the angle is they are not innocent, neither is he, and as long as he doesn't own up he isn't saying meaningful things, about himself or others. I'm sure if he happened to be the only one guilty, it might then have been too much for him to allow them to remain in prison, but the set up is different, only they are not in prison just because of or through what he said, I guess it is better to speak in terms of ''what is'', not in terms of a different type of scenario.


Hi Slade

I too think there are some areas that could be modified, like the time all of the appeals take but, the motive that underpin the system, where the police/prosecutors in collaboration with the courts have the right to use their own discretion about the importance of making/cutting a deal with those on trial, are there for well-founded reasons, the main one being that it has been shown time and time again that persons facing charges will say things just to get off themselves, it was determined in Italy that this was not a correct way to go and this is why they prohibited such dealings, since it means those carrying out the law are vulnerable too, being people as all are and thus with real lives, they can be tempted through money, or even threatened, they will stop carrying out the law and act according to the fears instilled by threats to their families or to themselves or both and or tempted into becoming criminals too as a result of the plentitude of cash offered by crooks.

Homing in on a certain ex-judge in Seattle, would someone like him, shown to do his own thing --in his ignoring of bodies/institutions (those in America that can be compared to the supreme courts of Italy) with more power and right to speak than he ever had ON HIS OWN-- if he were sitting in on the Knox case, not be liable to do things simply becauee of his own opinions and rules rather than those demanded be adhered to by a greater body than any single individual??? After all justice as a system is exactly this; an individual does not get to make up own rules or be a law unto him/herself.

Seems to me he'd be exactly the type that cut deals with mafia and godknowswhoand where he apparently stands behind Knox, were it him in the court then it would mean he'd just make some stuff up and let her go. since the things he is putting out now have nothing to do with the rules of law but everything to do with Noddy in dreamland. Disclaimer: No disrespect meant towards Noddy.

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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:55 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

I wonder sometimes if Guede receives any letters from any of the groupies. Do they ever contact him, and beg him to clear the pair? He must be aware of all of the publicity, especially now. Whom could he possibly ever trust to share his story with? Certainly nobody in prison.

He either has a conscience or he doesn't. if he does, what he has done must eat at him, how can it not? If he doesn't, he is an extremely dangerous loose end. Either way, he will leave prison, having served his time, and I can't imagine that he will have the resources to slip away to live the rest of his life anonymously. The notoriety of this story will follow him for the rest of his life. There will always be questions.

Some day, he may tell the entire story. I hope he does.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 5:46 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Napia5 wrote:
I wonder sometimes if Guede receives any letters from any of the groupies. Do they ever contact him, and beg him to clear the pair? He must be aware of all of the publicity, especially now. Whom could he possibly ever trust to share his story with? Certainly nobody in prison.

He either has a conscience or he doesn't. if he does, what he has done must eat at him, how can it not? If he doesn't, he is an extremely dangerous loose end. Either way, he will leave prison, having served his time, and I can't imagine that he will have the resources to slip away to live the rest of his life anonymously. The notoriety of this story will follow him for the rest of his life. There will always be questions.

Some day, he may tell the entire story. I hope he does.


Precisely, I think he does feel bad, only he is a coward, and needs a good talking to, in order to have him understand, that he can pretend to himself, that others do not see him as one of the guilty, yet in reality, it's worse, because since he is too much of a coward to reveal his own part it allows the others to get away with turning him into their scapegoat. He knows they are, yet to have to face that family and those around that family he was close to, the one who helped him, is too much for him, he'd rather pretend that he was innocent, as he thinks he will then have a chance to convince them he was, and hold onto what he once had, since he does not have his family, where is the rest of his family? a clue is in the same place as his dad, in Africa, part of the problem, as dad was there (in Africa) when Rudy Guede was in Italy, having left him there, as I recall.

Therefore those that provided him with shelter, and every kind of help, and love, were very important to him, even though he may have done, what adolescents do, which is, start rebelling. Only, as there is so very little actual info on him, as to how he was in his personal life as a character, it is hard to evaluate where he is now (mentally as t position and outlook) and what --aside from the murder details but also in relation to it as a result of how-- he already was, and so how it is, that he decided on his particular course in all of this.

Still, I do think his mouth shut approach, seems to be related to the notion in his head about retaining something, after all, he only has prison now, and is trying to maintain an idea of identity, one then related to having something to hold onto, even though it is possible that this notion is inaccurate and that those who cared for him are not going to be willing to have anything more to do with him, therefore, if he could know this, he might be more ready to abandon ship and get real.

There is never anything on what his life is, somewhere I did read or hear that he had some friends.

Possibly the one who tried to reel him in when he realised Guede was involved, after all, the guy was just doing what is right, and Guede must have known that, the guy could hardly act like a criminal too, he had to help, he was right to help.

Thing is, Guede, once on the run, I am certain, was fully aware that anything he wrote or said, by whatever medium of communication, would be traceable/dangerous, or that he already knew was being monitored, people work such things out fast once trying to avoid detection. Therefore anything he told that guy, at the time he was in Germany, and had not yet been picked up, can be taken, basically, with a pinch of salt, but what he revealed about the identity of someone he saw, was exactly Sollecito's description, that in a way, proves he knew Sollecito, and was thus involved with him, even if the stuff he told his friend Benne-Something-Or-Other, was full of lies.

I think it does eat at Guede. That's why I think he may come round and do better.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:30 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Amanda Knox likely belongs in prison
Seattle : WA : USA | Oct 16, 2013 at 9:05 PM PDT
By Chelsea Hoffman



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:54 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Sooooo Sollecito Sr. announced the return of his 'lost' son on November 6th in the classroom... absolutely, surely, definitely...unless he gets sick from some nasty virus of course..these things can take years to cure. Anyway, RS must have made sure he wouldn't get arrested on the spot for his book, so that he would be free to come to court and return to the Dominican if he so wishes. He probably makes a sponataneous statement. Something like there is no evidence besides the DNA, footprints, knife, staged break-in, and all that...but other then that ....nothing. Seriously, I think what AK is doing now (somewhat) and what RS will be doing is the 'pls spare my life' pleas, that we also saw at the end of the Massei trials. I do not expect to hear any truth from him.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:50 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Slade wrote:
zorba wrote:
Jester wrote:
Michael wrote:
Jester wrote:
Knox came closest to cracking when she mentioned the black guy that she met at the basketball court on the night of the murder - the black guy that was there when Meredith was murdered. She gave the name of the wrong guy, but she did cover her butt in case anyone saw her at the basketball court meeting with a black guy.

It seems that she, Sollecito and Guede have a silence pack. Surely Guede would not let Sollecito and Knox suffer for years, six so far, if he knew that they were innocent! Is there that much of an advantage for him to remain silent, would his truthful testimony of the night of the murder add more years to his sentence?

That is, if he truthfully stated that he committed the murder by himself, would that make any difference to the 16 year sentence ... could it add years to his sentence (given that it has been ruled that he did not act alone) as a murderous culprit? Could such an admission delay parole applications beyond 2016?


No. His charges and sentence have been finalised by the High Court. The only way he'd see an increase is if he were to confess (and be successfully tried for) new crimes for which he's never been previously charged.


If they were innocent, how is it possible that Guede would not simply say as much.


Well, first he'd have to admit his own guilt, so he is hardly going to make real statements on them, as he isn't willing to admit his guilt.



Being forbidden by law to negotiate even a tiny amount of preferential witness treatment, even for a finally convicted felon like Rudy, is a weakness in the Italian Justice system IMO. Of course, like you posted upthread, Rudy doesn't want to admit to his involvement in the horrible treatment of Meredith, but, if he could reveal the others' participation, explain how they all came to the cottage and what exactly triggered the violence against dear Meredith, then many answers that might otherwise never be known, could be known.

OK, I get that Rudy is not viewed as a 'reliable' witness, but spare him the indignity of having to explain what he did -- his testimony in this appeal may be the final chance to get absolute direct witness testimony that AK & RS -- two hideous, sociopathic murdering pieces of filth belong back in prison beyond any and all doubt! Like it or not, this level of proof is needed to convince those who have continued to express doubt. I would truly hate to see the US block AK's extradition b/c someone's Congressional Rep claims they are unsure about the fairness of the process.

Rudy = detailed testimony matching evidence; final nail!



Personally, I think it's a double edged sword. If you give an incentive for prisoners to accuse others, then they also have an incentive to accuse innocent people, or just to wrongly shift much of the blame onto their co-perps, which is the very opposite of truth. When you introduce new legal levers into any legal system, one also has to consider how they may be misused as well as how they may benefit. And specifically in this case, it is very difficult, if not impossible, for the accuser to prove or even evidence their accusations about the role of the other/s. It would simply be ones word (and that of a proven liar) against that of the others and be of limited use against them (as you acknowledge in your post). Even if his testimony matched some of the evidence, it wouldn't necessarily make it true as there may be more then one way that evidence got left.

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THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Michael wrote:
Slade wrote:
Being forbidden by law to negotiate even a tiny amount of preferential witness treatment, even for a finally convicted felon like Rudy, is a weakness in the Italian Justice system IMO.

Of course, like you [Zorba] posted upthread, Rudy doesn't want to admit to his involvement in the horrible treatment of Meredith, but, if he could reveal the others' participation, explain how they all came to the cottage and what exactly triggered the violence against dear Meredith, then many answers that might otherwise never be known, could be known.

OK, I get that Rudy is not viewed as a 'reliable' witness, but spare him the indignity of having to explain what he did -- his testimony in this appeal may be the final chance to get absolute direct witness testimony that AK & RS -- two hideous, sociopathic murdering pieces of filth belong back in prison beyond any and all doubt!

Like it or not, this level of proof is needed to convince those who have continued to express doubt.

I would truly hate to see the US block AK's extradition b/c someone's Congressional Rep claims they are unsure about the fairness of the process.

Rudy = detailed testimony matching evidence; final nail!



Personally, I think it's a double edged sword. If you give an incentive for prisoners to accuse others, then they also have an incentive to accuse innocent people, or just to wrongly shift much of the blame onto their co-perps, which is the very opposite of truth. When you introduce new legal levers into any legal system, one also has to consider how they may be misused as well as how they may benefit. And specifically in this case, it is very difficult, if not impossible, for the accuser to prove or even evidence their accusations about the role of the other/s. It would simply be ones word (and that of a proven liar) against that of the others and be of limited use against them (as you acknowledge in your post). Even if his testimony matched some of the evidence, it wouldn't necessarily make it true as there may be more then one way that evidence got left.


The way the law makes use of it in America and the UK, is when they know one person is involved, and that person even admits it themselves, or there is definite evidence, luike witnesses or CCTV images that are clear or something like this, so the defendant knows he/she will never be found not guilty, abnd so the poolice in watuing to catch a wider group or wider element, more people thus, they make a compromise, but is it justice t have one person get off to catch the rest?
In the UK as well as America, this stuff goes very far because some individuals who are guilty and as bad as who they inform on, are let go.

This is definitely why Italy decided against these practices, I read all about it in documents on comparative law that provided all of the reasoning behind why Italian law is as it is, and one of the main reasons was, because of he amount of hardline crime, Mafia practices, etc., there was no way they could fight against it if they allowed this what happens in the UK and the USA.

This ties into another part defined and stipulated in the Italian constitution and not by accident, where for each crime there are written laws (read: fixed, for each crime, no own discretion, like I'll give you 4 when the measure states 10), and that at any time any individual involved in the law, police, prosecutor fails to act when having knowledge of crimes committed, he/she at that point becomes the criminal, and will be taken to court if it should be known that they have failed to act.

This all dates back to when the law in Italy was the ultimate power, where people had no rights, where in court they had no rights, where even the platform, bench, where the judges sat was raised high above the common folk, and all of this protected the rich, as these would hardly ever get taken to court.

In the changes made, even this set up, where the judges were sat so high up, was changed, so that they would not be peering down on the wretches of society, who were not wretches but plain and ordinary citizens.

In this way, Italy has tried to cut out the ways high crime can be committed by means of corruption of officials, because officials have no power to make their own interpretation of laws, they must dish out the penalties written for crimes proved in court, they cannot be forced by anyone to do a thing, because there is hardly any space to move in that way, if things are known, there's no way of avoiding it, it would be too visible, as it was with Hellmann who tried to disobey the laws I am sure he knew (he was well-aware of) all about.

Didn't work though, because the Supreme Court is ALSO obliged to act when it is ascertained rthat irregularities have taken place, or they too would be guilty of failing to uphold the law.

Conclusion: Italy will never easily change these rules fixed into the constitutional paragraphs (clauses), designed to fight corruption.


picture of a pumpkin
This Post has been edited by a Moderator
Details: Fixed quotes so they are correctly assigned.


Thanks Michael, knew something wasn't right, as a post can contain max. of five quotes, I removed some and messed it up

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 1:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

From Twitter:

astrologernyc ‏@astrology8 4m
#amandaknox #meredithkercher Why were there no finger prints on Amanda's lamp left in Merdith's room?


****************************

Excellent question! :) Discuss!

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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 2:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

The fact that there were no fingerprints on the lamp is certainly problematic. One could possibly make an argument that this is explainable but for the fact that the lamp was on the floor.

In the first place, what argument can be made there is an innocent explanation for a lamp to be out of place on the floor in the room where a murder took place?

More importantly, the lamp was moved from it's place in Knox's room. They obviously didn't rent the cottage with the lamp being found on the floor. Someone, at some point in time, moved the lamp to Meredith's floor.

I think it's safe to assume that fingerprints weren't removed during a normal housecleaning, because there would be no reason to clean the lamp in it's position on the floor. One would need to pick the lamp up to clean it.

Some lamps are connected to an outlet that is controlled by a wall switch. The lamp itself never requires much touching in the turning on or off process, which could explain a lack of fingerprints if the lamp had been found on a bedside table. But this is obviously not the case.

It is my opinion that someone's fingerprints should have been on the lamp. The fact that there were none found points to the conclusion that the lamp was wiped after it came to its final resting place, or someone handled a very clean lamp with gloves or some other material used to keep prints off the lamp.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 3:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

1. If the lamp was knoxes, which it was, then it would ordinarily have had her fingerprints on it, or do people clean their rooms so thoroughly that they make sure to always clean the plugs too?
I have never heard of anyone cleaning plugs as part of the daily cleaning routine, and since Knox apparently didn't do her fair share of household tasks, she seems like the last person to do such a thing.

2. I am guessing the lamp as taken into Meredith's room because they needed to look real well, they knew where they had stood and knew where Guede had been so they made sure to clean up where they'd stood and made sure they didn't clean anything where Guede had been, but Sollecito, in his helpful way was bound to have said, we must cover our feet when we go in and cover our hands, they cleaned the lamp then forgot to get it out, but had perhaps already locked Meredith in and cast the keys into the dark night ravine, or down a drain, at least, they were not to be found again, and they did not want to smash the door in because their plan was to keep the door closed so nobody could say didn't you look in Meredith's room when you thought there had been a break-in, so that means they imagined nobody would know it was her lamp, or they were taken by surprise outside while still thinking about what else they needed to do.

They in no way wanted to be the ones to say they had found Meredith, if her door had been smashed they'd have had no way of saying, well we didn't bother looking there.

Their plans all went wrong

3. What kind of burglar sets about cleaning up?
The burglar goes prepared and doesn't leave fingerprints in the first place, so the burglar touches a lamp, etc., but the lamp when checked still has fingerprints on it, only not from the burglar.

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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

zorba wrote:
3. What kind of burglar sets about cleaning up?
The burglar goes prepared and doesn't leave fingerprints in the first place, so the burglar touches a lamp, etc., but the lamp when checked still has fingerprints on it, only not from the burglar.


Definitely, this.
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Offline ttrroonniicc


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

1. lamp was knoxes
2. already lamp in meredith kerchers room (why would she 'borrow it')
3. lamp on side, inside door ... flex outside (right?) - was being used for something - wasn't "borrowed",
was part of the crime scene scenario -- was part of the cleanup
4. lamp was required in knoxes room (no other light source)

knoxes lost ear-ring?
checking for traces

knox wouldn't go back in the room sollecito finished the cleanup/staging
knox forgot about the lamp - they just wanted to get out

knox realised the next morning that the lamp was in the room - that's why she wanted to get back in
sollecito not too keen to get back in but made an impression on the door for knox (later denying
later reporting that there "may be a problem"

flex outside because they couldn't even see the socket
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:15 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

An "AP correspondent and top New York desk editor", Robert Weller, has joined the fray: http://www.tekjournalismuk.com/45/post/ ... dence.html

Quote:
Hi, Robert Weller, since you already posted a pro-Amanda Knox article here and stated your background as a journalist, may I ask you to explain your statements "It is not even confirmed that the knife in question was used to kill Kercher" and "the DNA has not been confirmed to be Kercher by any standard any legitimate court would accept"?

You made quite a few errors in your article, which I'll address there. But here, the DNA findings were in fact confirmed by the trial that convicted them, and you haven't given any reasons to back your assertions that the court is 'not legitimate'.

Do you lose your journalistic objectivity at some point, or did you always write opinion pieces disguised as journalism?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

A burglar, a real one, why would he take so much trouble with a lamp?
what to see where a student is hiding the half a million in cash?

Then leave the other rooms? without taking a thing?

There was no burglar.

It's such a shame that Meredith did not break Knox's nose and or jaw, I say this because it's clear she fought back, and that bit, to me it's clear, made Knox angry, I think because Meredith managed to get one or two blows in, I mean it seems to me that Meredith was a gentle person yet one who wasn't going to take another female or person pushing her, literally, and or hitting her, I think the Knox neck wound ties into this.

I'm sure were Meredith to come back to life, and reveal that Sollecito and Knox had murdered her, they'd both deny it, and/or probably blame her.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:33 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

For those who haven't watched the Oct 4 episode of Quarto Grado, here is your chance: ;)

Roberta Ragusa - mother disappeared into thin air, Raffaele Sollecito from Santo Domingo, an interview with Lumumba.


VIDEO MEDIASET

The programme starts off with the story of the missing woman Roberta Ragusa, whose husband is the prime suspect in her disappearance. Worth a read:

Roberta Ragusa - Another Missing Woman
Ragusa case, the Prosecutor of Pisa, “the victim of a premeditated murder”
Roberta Ragusa, personal belongings of a woman, who went missing a year ago, found. Top secret place of discovery

It then moves on to focus on the Meredith Kercher murder case; the segment starts @~ 23:30 min.
Guest on the show is retired Carabinieri General Luciano Garofano, former head of their forensic department.

Interview with Patrick Lumumba - @~30 min

Raffy Sol is on @~39 min for about 3 minutes via Skype

(It looked like he was reading his carefully prepared statement from computer screen.)

-------------------------------------
My best birthday wishes to dgfred even if they are belated! pp-( Look for the best and leave behind all the rest! ghu-))
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:21 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Damn, Sollecito, definitely reading that, it was almost as if at the end he'd lift up a paper and say, signed ME, as he proceeded to do so.

Knox, absolutely unconvincing as usual, and Patrick explains that about how he saw her in a police van, he in one too, and saw her make eye contact with him, smiling, while he had no idea that this Patrick was him, only after did he find out that she smiled right at him, while she had just accused him of rape and murder.

She now says, she thought/thinks, she was traumatised so that's why she blamed Patrick, mmm, that's a new-un.

Traumatised.

Dear God, or whoever.

Wicked bitch.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:44 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Just a note:

Girlanda's book has been re-published as eBook by VandA ePublishing (eBook publisher based in Milan, Italy)

VandA ePublishing

Talks with Amanda Knox in prison. Take me with you
Rocco Ghirlanda [sic]
ASIN: B00C2F5QP0
Publisher: VandA ePUBLISHING
Pages: 162

Attachment:
Girlanda's eBook English translation.jpg


BOOKLENDING

There's already a Kindle edition of his book in English: viewtopic.php?p=105592#p105592

What does everyone think of the cover: white as snow, red as blood, black as ebony? :shock: Our "Snow White" Amanda Knox...

Notice the rating: 5 stars from just 2 readers (you know who they are and where they come from.) ;)


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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:40 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

I wonder how often he visited Raffaele. And when that story will be published.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:08 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Here's a new article by a retired AP reporter and news desk editor DNA doesn't support Amanda Knox Guilt

It is so rife with error I couldn't believe it had been written by a journalist. These things should be rebutted, so, I did.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:39 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

The usual shallow drivel from Peter Popham in The Independent:

The re-trial of Amanda Knox in the Kercher case will be a show without its star
If it was murky and unreliable then, how can it become less so now?
By Peter Popham
Thursday 17 October 2013

When the re-trial of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito for the murder of British student Meredith Kercher gets under way for real in Florence on 6 November, there will be one notable absentee. The only person in the entire case that the photographers and TV cameramen and reporters were desperate to have a good look at, will be missing. Amanda Knox who was found guilty, and spent four years in jail, most of them on remand, and who was given an especially harsh sentence because she was supposedly so wicked, will be 4,800 miles away in Seattle.

She will not be extradited, but case absence is permitted in Italy’s curious and frequently dysfunctional justice system. [...]

Yet it is Amanda Knox’s absence that will be felt most keenly. “Angel Face” they called her during the previous trials. I reported much of the proceedings for The Independent and I was as glued to her as anybody else. We couldn’t get enough of that pretty, unmarked, innocent-looking American face.
...
What on earth new can anyone hope to learn about evidence that was collected in such an amateurish way at the time, about the dodgy DNA on the bra clasp, on the disputed DNA on the knife plucked at random from Sollecito’s kitchen and declared to be the murder weapon? If it was murky and unreliable back then, how can it have become less so in the intervening years?


THE INDEPENDENT

Comments under the article:

COMMENTS
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Michael wrote:
From Twitter:

astrologernyc ‏@astrology8 4m
#amandaknox #meredithkercher Why were there no finger prints on Amanda's lamp left in Merdith's room?


****************************

Excellent question! :) Discuss!



They cleaned the lamp before taking it into the room even though they were wearing gloves, they did it not realising that it is not normal for such an item to be absolutely fingerprint free.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:07 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Napia5 wrote:
zorba wrote:
3. What kind of burglar sets about cleaning up?
The burglar goes prepared and doesn't leave fingerprints in the first place, so the burglar touches a lamp, etc., but the lamp when checked still has fingerprints on it, only not from the burglar.


Definitely, this.


Love to see a few of those ex-burglars who go on TV showing how easy it is to get into many homes/premises and what they think about beforehand, these guys are often on British TV and I often saw them telling the interviewer how they always choose the fastest, easiest way, they turn a place upside down in minutes and are off, in the cottage, the place was not turned upside down, and in a home obviously shared what kind of lunatic burglar would staty around raping and killing someone when at any moment people could arrive home for all he knew.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:10 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

ttrroonniicc wrote:
1. lamp was knoxes


Yes as proven by photos, this is something Knox never took into account

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:11 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

The Untouchables

Meanwhile, the evening sun had obviously sunk over on the horizon, and a small man in a shaded, what looked like, kinda room, made his speech, it could have been a phone booth or a prison cell, the surroundings had been kept as much out of view, nobody knew where he was and he wasn't going to be lying on any more beaches, even though he was going to be lying, though the island is piss poor there are enough with money, maybe many with dodgy dealings, who go to live there exactly for the lack of real law, money being welcomed, hotels and vacation centres are huge, and top class, foreign holiday makers not needing to, and mostly not wanting to venture outside, lovely food, accommodation, entertainment, meanwhile outside the gates of fantasy in out and around other parts of town, kids starving, police beating/killing, yes, he felt at home.

Disclaimer: Any similarities to persons real, are purely coincidendal... or are they?

Meanwhile 2: There's a certain woman, hard as nails, who in the hard as nails routine pretends to cry (learned it off by heart), while as much as ordering and threatening people, accusing them of all sorts, one conviction for doing that never made her think twice, for in her little mind, she is infallible, well, I think I musta been traumatised, said she, eyebrows raised ceiling-wards, as if to say, they're all nuts but me...?????

Eyes closing as if on cue, I'm so tired, why won't they leave me alone, eyes reopening lips curling like a baboon, as if to say, tut tut, look what they did to me, for I am perfect and good and holy and they are all not.

I remember, she was MY FRIEND, she said.

When my FRIEND was murdered, she continued, I thought, mmm, who could have done this to the my FRIEND, so I took off to the sexy boutique and was most upset about what happened to MY FRIEND, you could tell by the way I laughed and kissed, however, I also realised, hey, shit happens and after all, she is gone and I am here, my FRIEND, smart, pretty, studying and I thought, why would anyone ever think I had anything to do with it, it was MY FRIEND, how we laughed, and funned it up, she and the others cleaned, my FRIEND did, I did not.

Then I came home and the door was wagon-wide open, I feared not because I thought it highly normal, strolling about I thought, mmm, let's see, it's cold but let me leave the front door wide open in case someone, I know not who, is taking the trash out to the trash cans, the trash cans that I just had to pass to get in here, and where there was nobody, yes, let me leave the door open in the freezing cold, strip off and take a shower, I hope the my FRIEND is okay and nothing tragic happened, not thinking of the various traces and smears of blood up and down the walls, the smashed window, tra la la I sang, showering, oh darn, it hit me, I have forgotten my towel, what shall I do, I was thinking, then I realised, let me use the mat, for if any water drips on the floor from and off me, the house is likely to dissolve and you don't want that do you, no.

So, there I went, skating to my room and back on the mat, please believe me one time will ya, and I saved the house.

After that, I blow dried my hair, saw a poo in the other bathroom, and thought, mmm, I'd better leave that, maybe someone wanted to save it, then I combed my hair meticulously as is clear from the photos in which I appear to have slept in a bush.

After that, let me remember my version, oh yes, I must have gone to his place, the Italian I met, what's his name, er Ralph I think, my memory it's not so good, yes there I must have said to myself, he, he, he, he has blood on his hands, but I thought, what are you worrying about he has not sneaked out in the night to murder any of my housemates, he was in this condition from the fish and as he must be a dirty bastard he didn't even wash his hands.

It was a normal day. We ate, we drank, maybe we made love I cannot recall, I'd been there near-on an hour when I said in between my panino, mmm, maybe there has been a burglary, I saw blood, had a shower, glass all over the place, is there any need for concern, oh wise one.

He wisely said; maybe we can take a look, let me find some gloves and coverings for our feet, these plastic bags should do.

Hey I said, what's this, bleach?

What's that for?
Nothing, just to clean your house, if anything tragic happened, you never know, we do not want the police thinking you did it if there was anything done, we know not, but just in case, here, take these euros while I get ready and buy some more bleach it's 6 o clock in the morning, or is it, I know not, I never look at the time.

No no no, said she, for it is far later, I have already been for a shower, remember, I just told you? Oh yes, I see, for I am also becoming forgetful of late, yes, so it was 9?
9-ish
not 6-ish?

She: 9.30 and you said, we must investigate.
I said, yes inspector, let's go for who knows, something BAD may have happened, I'm not saying anything but if it has it wasn't me, but not as bad as me accusing an innocent man of murder, however, I was traumatised, I think.

DR fugitive communicates with Seattle: Hi hi, how ya doing I watched your show, how much they paid ya?... they paid me $x00000
Seattle connection: Is that all, I got much more, tell em you want more
DRF: I did but they said I only have a side role
Seattle connection: Mmm, yeah, that's true (breathes out in one or two shot blows onto the knuckles nnails, much like polishing brass) tell them you have special things to say, they'll up your fee.
DRF: Okay, I will, catch you later, I'm off to the massage parlour, it's nice here, my future is not in Italy.

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Last edited by zorba on Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Hi, zorba. Odd group, all of them. We have the Momma and the Poppa as back-up for the accused. Don't you wonder, doesn't anybody wonder, WHY? Why is Mom there for support? Did she take a crash course in Italian so that she can provide support during tough questioning? Far as I know, she doesn't speak the language, does she?
She was as much a part of the 'staging' as the library of books behind Knox. come to think of it, they're all quite good at staging, aren't they?
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Nick Richardson's review of Waiting to be Heard and Meredith:

Nothing Fits

Vol. 35 No. 20 · 24 October 2013
pages 35-38 | 6968 words

LONDON REVIEW OF BOOKS
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Offline Aranavachi


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:49 pm   Post subject: Re: At PMF.org -- paranoia is thick!   

Napia5 wrote:
zorba wrote:
Aranavachi wrote:
zorba wrote:


When you've told a bad lie and everyone can see it is one, the best thing to do is shut up and hope, that it is forgotten, only in his case, it never was going to be as it is a most important element, him making up nonsensical tales about pricking the murder victim and being told it is not a problem.

I cannot remember ever being hurt by anyone by accident then telling them, oow ow ouch ouch ouch
Let me inform you, it is not a problem.

Mother today I accidently scalded my friend with hot water, but she told me, awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
It is not a problem.

Get real, nobody words things like this, like that.
He never pricked her.

But...... the worst bit about this tale of his from way back when, is that he made that up about pricking her, and this is hard for me to get right, but where in actual fact Meredith suffered something so much worse than a prick and it was the worst problem she would ever face in her life because it meant she died, makes this man ia shameless bastard; if it were the middle ages he would deserve to be hung drawn and quartered, stretched on the rack,
his acts after the murder,
are an insult to the collective human IQ, the biggest insult,
the cruelty involved in it, making such stuff up directly related to what really happened, where Meredith never got the chance to say ANYTHING, let alone "it is not a problem."

He is no less than a pathological, self-centred liar.


This pricking Meredith story is one of the main pieces of intellectually obvious evidence.
By that I mean, for the DNA stuff most people can be confused by science and in terms of all the circumstantial evidence excuses can be made on each individual piece - creating Laurel & Hardy characterization for AK and RS whereby the two stupids were blissfully unaware of the world around them and had no common sense at all!

Hard to believe, but if your mind wants not to accept that these two murdered poor Meredith farfetched stupid excuses can be made...but for the pricking story which is written in black and white in a letter to his father under no duress at all. I cannot think of ANY reason in the world why he would say this! Other than to make an excuse in case they find DNA on the knife belonging to Meredith. How can anyone hear this, read this and not see it as a full confession!?

This is also proof that his father knows RS is guilty. The man cannot claim to be stupid given he is a doctor! I think he feels responsible for his son's derailment and clearly unstable mental state.

This whole case is like a bad comedy that is funded by powerful, rich and resourceful producers who market the hell out of it. Especially when reviewing the lies and stories of the first few days before the SUPER EXPENSIVE LAWYERS kicked in. I wont go on, but the fact that they have some of the best legal representation possible is also proof of their guilt to me. If those lawyers can't get you off, you are guilty! There is no way to get a more fair trial.



Indeed Arana, especially in trying to cover up a first lie he says something that truly shows it was a lie, because he muddled up what he said, thinking nobody would notice, but if he is going to prance about online playing games, mind games, and trying to use that online presence to put some idea of himself forward as some great and swell kinda guy, he ought to know what he is going to say or make things worse, that's the danger when you are up to no good.

So he stated early on, I pricked Meredith in the hand, then he taken unaware, invents another lie, a la minute; it never happened, I never pricked her in the hand, I dreamed it up while suffering at the hands of that AWFUL justice system, in solitary no less. Everything, any point ever against them, they explain away by blaming someone for some kind of abuse but ain't that just something when you juat happen to be accused of the worst type of abuse there is, murder.

So they made him dream it up, it never happened.
Yes because finding out people aren't as stupid as he perhaps assumed they were, realising that he had been caught out on that point to begin with since Meredith had never been to his home, he thinks he can get rid of that first lie about the knife by making a second one; will he now make up yet another lie, to explain how he didn't actually mean it never happened, actually, didn't mean to say he said it while in solitary but that he actually cannot remember anything, anymore... AGAIN.


It would be good to have it clear, about whether or not the RIS who are examining the knife, are allowed explicity only to examine that one trace or examine the knife, again, all of it, even more meticulously if that's possible, and using the newer equipment.

Since the case is still going on, surely the newer instrumentation would be more appropriate, if it is now available, what's the sense in not using it?

The Italian article Ava (hello Ava) posted also referred to two traces from Meredith, like, if another were to be found, so no talking about it as if the other trace from Meredith has been dismissed, which it has not.

Massei didn't dismiss it, and since Hellmann is tending geraniums some place and his rulings were regarded as nothing more than road maps designed by a blind man with chronic rheumatism, that isn't much use in finding the way.


I think that the context of when this lie first appeared adds weight to its importance.
From his diary, on November 16, 2007, he is in jail and sees on television that the knife has been seized. He admits going into a panic. He then speaks to his attorney who tells him it is nothing, it could have occurred because the girls were at his flat, or he cooked for them, or whatever.
It is only after this, that he calms down and remembers that he pricked Meredith while cooking. The panic is gone.

I wouldn't conclude from this that his attorney told him to lie, but Sollecito certainly seems to grasp this concept.


Hi Napia

Thanks for the background. I was under the impression that he wrote this in a letter to his father? I must have confused something. If he wrote it in his diary, that goes to show he was aware that his diary may be read by officials and used at some stage...He was writing for an audience, because surely you do not write that for yourself.

I tried to search TJMK to find the exact thing he wrote, but searching is for members only and it wont allow me to log-in...Ive tried a lot and when I go to forget password it says "Unable to send email at this time." so unfortunately I cant.
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Offline Aranavachi


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

zorba wrote:
ttrroonniicc wrote:
1. lamp was knoxes


Yes as proven by photos, this is something Knox never took into account


She denied that it was her lamp?
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Hi, Aranavachi, no, she just denied knowing how it got there. It's the Bruces (TM) who speculate the cops put the lamp by the door. Or a burglar. wearing gloves. Yeah, that was another.

Gloves that Rudy supposedly wore in his climb, which is why no fingerprints of his found in Filomena's room either. Sad commentary that even Rudy Guede seems more intelligent than the crop of denialists over there.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Hi Aranavachi. We have a section here entitled "In Their Own Words". Raffaele's Diary is listed under his section.
It is in this section where I found the information on the knife. Bottom of page 8 and top of page 9. I tried to copy the link, but it is a PDF file and I haven't had any success copying just part of it.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

What exactly was the finding for sample 36H?
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Napia5 wrote:
Hi, zorba. Odd group, all of them. We have the Momma and the Poppa as back-up for the accused. Don't you wonder, doesn't anybody wonder, WHY? Why is Mom there for support? Did she take a crash course in Italian so that she can provide support during tough questioning? Far as I know, she doesn't speak the language, does she?
She was as much a part of the 'staging' as the library of books behind Knox. come to think of it, they're all quite good at staging, aren't they?



Funny you should see that too, when I watched ma was stood there as one would in agreement, nodding-like, but as far as we know she doesn't speak Italian, I think she is basically in the vicinity to kick her daughter in the shins as people do, when they are saying something wrong or that they shouldn't, so, what now, everyone, the budgy, the dog, the cat, everyone, is in therapy and on intensive Italian courses
Ma; They all speaks that stuff, we don't, no we don't speak that lingo, to us it's all gubbely gook, we don't go for Italian anymore, we go for Mexican, we also do'nrt spak that but we like the Mexicans, we don't speak the lingo, we tried, she does, she's great at it... I hear (from her).

Knox sounds awful in Italian, everything she says doesn't sound sympathetic at all, it sounds threatening.

Foxious Noxious: bla bla bla I was traumatised, so it's their fault I blamed him, I loved him, he was great. (all in Italian)
Ma: nodding, dammit, you tell em, I agree.


The library, yes, they projected it onto the wall or so, or it's one of those secret rooms, behind it is her secret hiding place I expect.
This all slides on into the previous images of her with those spectacles and her pen in hand, like the busy author/journalist type, maybe a knife would have looked more in place.

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Last edited by zorba on Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

zorba wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
Hi, zorba. Odd group, all of them. We have the Momma and the Poppa as back-up for the accused. Don't you wonder, doesn't anybody wonder, WHY? Why is Mom there for support? Did she take a crash course in Italian so that she can provide support during tough questioning? Far as I know, she doesn't speak the language, does she?
She was as much a part of the 'staging' as the library of books behind Knox. come to think of it, they're all quite good at staging, aren't they?



Funny you should see that too, when I watched ma was stood there as one would in agreement, nodding-like, but as far as we know she doesn't speak Italian, I think she is basic within the vicinity to kick her daughter in the shins as people do, when they are saying something wrong or that they shouldn't, so, what now, everyone, the budgy, the dog the cat, everyone, is in therapy and on intensive Italian courses
Ma; They all speaks that stuff, we don't, no we don't speak that lingo, to us it's all gubbely gook, we do'nt go for Italian anymore, we don't speak the lingo, we tried, she does, she's great at it... I hear (from her).

Knox sounds awful in Italian, everything she says doesn't sound sympathetic at all, it sounds threatening.

Foxious Noxious: bla bla bla I eas traumatised, so it's their fault I blamed him, I loved him, he was great. (all in Italian
Ma: nodding, dammit, you tell em, I agree.


The library, yes, they projected it onto the wall or so, or it's one of those secret rooms, behind it is her secret hiding place I expect.
This all slides on into the previous images of her with those spectacles and her pen in hand, like the busy author/journalist type, maybe a knife would have looked more in place.


Edda CAN'T kick her in the shins for saying something she shouldn't, because Edda can't understand what she is saying. That's what is so funny. She has no clue what she is nodding about!
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Napia5 wrote:
zorba wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
Hi, zorba. Odd group, all of them. We have the Momma and the Poppa as back-up for the accused. Don't you wonder, doesn't anybody wonder, WHY? Why is Mom there for support? Did she take a crash course in Italian so that she can provide support during tough questioning? Far as I know, she doesn't speak the language, does she?
She was as much a part of the 'staging' as the library of books behind Knox. come to think of it, they're all quite good at staging, aren't they?



Funny you should see that too, when I watched ma was stood there as one would in agreement, nodding-like, but as far as we know she doesn't speak Italian, I think she is basic within the vicinity to kick her daughter in the shins as people do, when they are saying something wrong or that they shouldn't, so, what now, everyone, the budgy, the dog the cat, everyone, is in therapy and on intensive Italian courses
Ma; They all speaks that stuff, we don't, no we don't speak that lingo, to us it's all gubbely gook, we do'nt go for Italian anymore, we don't speak the lingo, we tried, she does, she's great at it... I hear (from her).

Knox sounds awful in Italian, everything she says doesn't sound sympathetic at all, it sounds threatening.

Foxious Noxious: bla bla bla I eas traumatised, so it's their fault I blamed him, I loved him, he was great. (all in Italian
Ma: nodding, dammit, you tell em, I agree.


The library, yes, they projected it onto the wall or so, or it's one of those secret rooms, behind it is her secret hiding place I expect.
This all slides on into the previous images of her with those spectacles and her pen in hand, like the busy author/journalist type, maybe a knife would have looked more in place.


Edda CAN'T kick her in the shins for saying something she shouldn't, because Edda can't understand what she is saying. That's what is so funny. She has no clue what she is nodding about!



Yeah but she probably does it every once and then, just to show her some support

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Aranavachi wrote:
zorba wrote:
ttrroonniicc wrote:
1. lamp was knoxes


Yes as proven by photos, this is something Knox never took into account


She denied that it was her lamp?


No, but I'm assuming they must have realised they'd locked the lamp in there but they had, meanwhile, chucked the keys away somewhere they could not get them back, however, Knox, I imagine, did not think anyone would know it was her lamp and certainly did not realise that the lamp was visible in photographs made in her room before the murder.

The may also have been so busy they forgot it, they didn't see the mat or they'd have got rid of it that's for sure, so they were so busy cleaning themselves up, and things up, they did not actually see the spot on which they were working, or a possibility is that it was Sollecito in there as last and he has bad eyes, it was his footprint.

If they did realise the lamp was in there they may have decided to leave it as nobody would know it was hers, they thought at least, and to break the door would really messed up their plans for having someone else find Meredith, if the door had been broken open they could never have said, as Knox did, I took a shower, and then this, then that, they would have had to have changed all of their planned alibis, and they wanted no connection with the room, they would have to have phoned the police screaming that someone had been murdered, and do all of that acting like they were in shock, but they didn't want that, as they probably thought they might be accused of being involved, they really hoped nobody would even dream it had anything to do with them, they thought, who in the world is going to think we did it, it was a burglar, and with that, the end of the story for them.

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Offline Aranavachi


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

zorba wrote:
Aranavachi wrote:
zorba wrote:
ttrroonniicc wrote:
1. lamp was knoxes


Yes as proven by photos, this is something Knox never took into account


She denied that it was her lamp?


No, but I'm assuming they must have realised they'd locked the lamp in there but they had, meanwhile, chucked the keys away somewhere they could not get them back, however, Knox, I imagine, did not think anyone would know it was her lamp and certainly did not realise that the lamp was visible in photographs made in her room before the murder.

The may also have been so busy they forgot it, they didn't see the mat or they'd have got rid of it that's for sure, so they were so busy cleaning themselves up, and things up, they did not actually see the spot on which they were working, or a possibility is that it was Sollecito in there as last and he has bad eyes, it was his footprint.

If they did realise the lamp was in there they may have decided to leave it as nobody would know it was hers, they thought at least, and to break the door would really messed up their plans for having someone else find Meredith, if the door had been broken open they could never have said, as Knox did, I took a shower, and then this, then that, they would have had to have changed all of their planned alibis, and they wanted no connection with the room, they would have to have phoned the police screaming that someone had been murdered, and do all of that acting like they were in shock, but they didn't want that, as they probably thought they might be accused of being involved, they really hoped nobody would even dream it had anything to do with them, they thought, who in the world is going to think we did it, it was a burglar, and with that, the end of the story for them.


I agree with you on all fronts, I think they needed the lamp because one of them dropped something and they wanted to find it (possibly an eating). They didnt want to turn the light to the room on because it would be seen from the outside.

On an aside; here are a question I wish a journalist would ask this babbling baboon

-Amanda, why do you think that Rudy (since she blames him entirely) cleaned up the bathroom? There is no blood trail and clearly since there is blood in the bathroom he has been in there to wash up! So why would you think he then cleaned up?

I just want to see her fact when she comes to answer the above question. Its not accusing her directly so technically a pro-innocence person can ask this question.

Then if the journalist could ask a more direct question

- Amanda, you say that there is no trace of you in the room and therefore you were not there. Fair enough. How does this logic follow when we find that there was no trace of Rudy in the bathroom or Filomena's room?
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Offline Aranavachi


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ergon wrote:
Hi, Aranavachi, no, she just denied knowing how it got there. It's the Bruces (TM) who speculate the cops put the lamp by the door. Or a burglar. wearing gloves. Yeah, that was another.

Gloves that Rudy supposedly wore in his climb, which is why no fingerprints of his found in Filomena's room either. Sad commentary that even Rudy Guede seems more intelligent than the crop of denialists over there.


This is truly one of those laugh out load moments! Why do the Bruces as you name them have to come up with the most absurd and unbelievable scenarios. Honestly if these two were innocent, the idiots that support them would make them look guilty to anyone with a sense of logic.

They could just have said that Meredith borrowed it. Isnt that simple? I know that she had her own lamp - but maybe she wanted two. Thats so much easier to swallow.

You cant argue with Knox, she doesnt know much about anything! Poor girl, how does she remember where she leaves her bike every time? No wonder those 4 years of reading literature and philosophy havent helped her articulate a sentence, she cant remember anything and doesnt know much about the stuff she can remember.

Sorry Im just ranting now!
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Offline Aranavachi


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Napia5 wrote:
Hi Aranavachi. We have a section here entitled "In Their Own Words". Raffaele's Diary is listed under his section.
It is in this section where I found the information on the knife. Bottom of page 8 and top of page 9. I tried to copy the link, but it is a PDF file and I haven't had any success copying just part of it.



Thanks Napia, I am going to go over and read it (or a translation since I dont have Italian).
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:42 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Napia5 wrote:
What exactly was the finding for sample 36H?


From the KnoxDNA report site: http://knoxdnareport.wordpress.com/cont ... f-item-36/

Quote:
Generic test for blood

Trace A = negative reaction
Trace B = negative reaction
Trace C = negative reaction
Trace D = negative reaction
Trace E = negative reaction
Trace F = negative reaction
Trace G = negative reaction
Trace H = negative reaction
Trace I = negative reaction


And Conclusions: http://knoxdnareport.wordpress.com/cont ... lusions-2/

Quote:
in particular sample “H”, present granules with a circular/hexagonal characteristic morphology with a cental radial structure. A more detailed microscopic study, together with the consultation of data in the literature, allowed us to ascertain that the structures in question are attributable to granules of starch, thus matter of a vegetable nature.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:39 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

KING 5′s Lynda Byron Gets First Local Interview with Amanda Knox Since Leaving Italian Prison
October 18, 2013

After 6 years covering the story of a Seattle student accused, charged, imprisoned and finally acquitted of murder charges while studying abroad in Italy, KING 5 Investigative Reporter Linda Byron is now the first local journalist to interview Amanda Knox in her home town.
...
Amanda Knox: Her Life Now airs on KING 5 News this Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday nights.

“I talked to Amanda for nearly two hours about her life in Seattle, her struggles, the case against her and the future. I think many people will find Amanda someone different from what they believe,” said Linda Byron, KING 5 Investigative Reporter.
...
Amanda Knox: Her Life Now is an exclusive, three part series that will air on KING 5 News; Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday in the KONG 10 p.m. and KING 11 p.m. newscasts, and available at king5.com. A special half-hour program is also in production to air on Sunday, November 3 at 10 p.m. on KING.


BELLEVUE BUSINESS JOURNAL
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:55 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ergon wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
What exactly was the finding for sample 36H?


From the KnoxDNA report site: http://knoxdnareport.wordpress.com/cont ... f-item-36/

Quote:
Generic test for blood

Trace A = negative reaction
Trace B = negative reaction
Trace C = negative reaction
Trace D = negative reaction
Trace E = negative reaction
Trace F = negative reaction
Trace G = negative reaction
Trace H = negative reaction
Trace I = negative reaction


And Conclusions: http://knoxdnareport.wordpress.com/cont ... lusions-2/

Quote:
in particular sample “H”, present granules with a circular/hexagonal characteristic morphology with a cental radial structure. A more detailed microscopic study, together with the consultation of data in the literature, allowed us to ascertain that the structures in question are attributable to granules of starch, thus matter of a vegetable nature.


Thank you, Ergon. Interesting.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:25 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   





Wait a sec, is this a link to a page set up by the Knox persons?

Is such a source reliable for information?

The interpretation of info is definitely not reliable.

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Offline McCall


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 12:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

zorba wrote:




Wait a sec, is this a link to a page set up by the Knox persons?

Is such a source reliable for information?

The interpretation of info is definitely not reliable.


The only person who translated C&V was a Knox person. There is no PMF translation.

I prefer to work from the Italian version because I don't trust the translation. The Italian version http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/C ... tti_Report

A lot of what C&V says in the report is wrong so hard to evaluate if the translation is accurate without actually going though it with both documents open.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

McCall wrote:
zorba wrote:




Wait a sec, is this a link to a page set up by the Knox persons?

Is such a source reliable for information?

The interpretation of info is definitely not reliable.


The only person who translated C&V was a Knox person. There is no PMF translation.

I prefer to work from the Italian version because I don't trust the translation. The Italian version http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/C ... tti_Report

A lot of what C&V says in the report is wrong so hard to evaluate if the translation is accurate without actually going though it with both documents open.


Thanks, McCall. I can't verify that it's wrong as I don't speak Italian, but it certainly is ambiguous.
As always, I have more questions than answers.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Napia5 wrote:
McCall wrote:
zorba wrote:




Wait a sec, is this a link to a page set up by the Knox persons?

Is such a source reliable for information?

The interpretation of info is definitely not reliable.


The only person who translated C&V was a Knox person. There is no PMF translation.

I prefer to work from the Italian version because I don't trust the translation. The Italian version http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/C ... tti_Report

A lot of what C&V says in the report is wrong so hard to evaluate if the translation is accurate without actually going though it with both documents open.


Thanks, McCall. I can't verify that it's wrong as I don't speak Italian, but it certainly is ambiguous.
As always, I have more questions than answers.



Yes Mc and Napska,

Since they have been written off, I see no value in reading what they said, certainly no value in translating it, and actually I see no value in placing links to their stuff. If one does place links to stuff from them, it ought to come, I think, with notification stating that anything they said has been discredited and that the info/interpretations in the link have been written by those in support of Knox.

Amen.

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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

zorba wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
McCall wrote:
zorba wrote:




Wait a sec, is this a link to a page set up by the Knox persons?

Is such a source reliable for information?

The interpretation of info is definitely not reliable.


The only person who translated C&V was a Knox person. There is no PMF translation.

I prefer to work from the Italian version because I don't trust the translation. The Italian version http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/C ... tti_Report

A lot of what C&V says in the report is wrong so hard to evaluate if the translation is accurate without actually going though it with both documents open.


Thanks, McCall. I can't verify that it's wrong as I don't speak Italian, but it certainly is ambiguous.
As always, I have more questions than answers.



Yes Mc and Napska,

Since they have been written off, I see no value in reading what they said, certainly no value in translating it, and actually I see no value in placing links to their stuff. If one does place links to stuff from them, it ought to come, I think, with notification stating that anything they said has been discredited and that the info/interpretations in the link have been written by those in support of Knox.

Amen.


Hi, Zorba. I wanted to look at this report because I wanted to understand how many tested and untested samples there were. How many samples did Stefanoni take? How many did she test? How many samples did C&V take? How many did they test? And, to what extent did they test them? To my untrained eye, I am trying to determine why exactly sample 36I was tested this time and 36H wasn't.

Just reading the conclusion section is very confusing. While it may appear simple to someone who understands this stuff, I got stuck. Why exactly is I being tested now and H isn't?
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Offline McCall


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

zorba wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
McCall wrote:
zorba wrote:




Wait a sec, is this a link to a page set up by the Knox persons?

Is such a source reliable for information?

The interpretation of info is definitely not reliable.


The only person who translated C&V was a Knox person. There is no PMF translation.

I prefer to work from the Italian version because I don't trust the translation. The Italian version http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/C ... tti_Report

A lot of what C&V says in the report is wrong so hard to evaluate if the translation is accurate without actually going though it with both documents open.


Thanks, McCall. I can't verify that it's wrong as I don't speak Italian, but it certainly is ambiguous.
As always, I have more questions than answers.



Yes Mc and Napska,

Since they have been written off, I see no value in reading what they said, certainly no value in translating it, and actually I see no value in placing links to their stuff. If one does place links to stuff from them, it ought to come, I think, with notification stating that anything they said has been discredited and that the info/interpretations in the link have been written by those in support of Knox.

Amen.


I do plan to go though C&V and write a detailed explanation of why C&V's findings have been dumped. It isn't a high priority but I plan to do it after I finish my day by day summary of the Massei trial. C&V are out as far as the Italian legal system is concerned but they continue to be a major talking point for defending Knox and Sollecito. As such I think they deserve a page on the wiki where their report gets examined and torn apart.

The interesting thing about C&V's report is that it does not reference mainstream science. If you look at the sources the core of C&V's position is founded on studies published in journals that specifically state that their purpose is to give scientists that can't be published in legitimate journals a place to publish their work. That is a really critical flaw. C&V needed something to reference so when they couldn't find anything in the main forensic journals they just kept looking and eventually found articles and studies in journals with no credibility to use as support for their unconventional positions. The bibliography by itself is sufficient to discredit C&V. The only reason someone uses sources like that is if the mainstream literature does not support their claims. C&V's assignment was to assess the procedures and results of the Scientific Police by the standards of the mainstream literature and the recommendations of the relevant regulatory agency. Instead C&V create their own set of recommendations founded on principles from studies that could not get published in principle journals. To anyone who has worked as a researcher it is obvious that C&V had a predetermined conclusion and that everything else was just an attempt to best support that predetermined conclusion.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 3:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Napia5, Only sample I is being tested because a) traces of DNA were found there and b) the Supreme Court directed them to. Florence appears to just want to close the file, cross their "T" 's, dot their "I" 's :)
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Offline chami


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

McCall wrote:

... ...
To anyone who has worked as a researcher it is obvious that C&V had a predetermined conclusion and that everything else was just an attempt to best support that predetermined conclusion.


I review mainstream international journal articles on a regular basis and I have also arrived at the same conclusions...

Some catalysts were used...
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Offline ttrroonniicc


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

TJMK: When You Get In A Deeeep Hole, Best To Stop Digging: Did Anyone Think To Tell Knox?

Knox: I have already appealed to him to tell him that I didn’t go to the Police Headquarters with the aim of accusing him of a murder he did not commit. What was dragged out of me was dragged out from me without my wanting to harm him.

I only wanted to help and I was completely confused so that I didn’t know what was true and what was not true at that point. Therefore I didn’t want to harm him. I … (MAXI-SIGH) … His.. His name came out only because my mobile phone was there and we exchanged some SMS.

The fabrication of an entire scenario around Lumumba was "dragged out" of her?

Did they say "accuse Patrick". Does she have a brain. Black man found black man guilty. Black man in prison, all good. Edda Mellas "I didn't inform the police that Patrick was innocent because I didn't speak Italian".

It wasn't just an accusation, it was the construction of an entire story around Patrick. Sollecito "they wanted me to frame Knox" Knox "they wanted me to frame Patrick". Why?

Also "I'm afraid of Patrick" then freakout bashing head (victim portrayal).

She uses the term bambina for herself, rather than ragazza, sheltering within this childlike status. At 20. At nearer 30 she is still doing it. She said in an interview that she was la più piccola [the littlest] instead of la più giovane [the youngest]. Littlest evokes more sympathy.

From the start she used that (then right through the court sessions). Of course though, she is also hyper-intelligent.

Nobody apart from a "middle class" American girl with huge press/PR factory would be out over this. Guede is forgotten.

Her advisors need to shut her up before she makes it any worse for herself. In that accusation of Lumumba, she said she was there, in the next room with her hands over her ears because she couldn’t bear Meredith’s screams. It was a clear description, clear enough for the police to arrest Lumumba and put him in prison. The screams coincided with those the neighbours reported.

Knox readily reports "a scream". Knox readily (& eagerly) reporting Kerchers wound / position of body.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Hi Naps,

It's good to want to understand.
Reading their stuff if one doesn't know what Mc just explained though, is dangerous, especially to people who know little about the case.


The hiring in of experts, for plenty money-o, is something I don't like, because then all as it is, for the weekenders, is a few days out, even showing off as that Sarah (Torres partner at that time) woman seemed to be, most importantly though, where money is the main thing how can these people be trusted to uphold all of those ethics, etc, seems to me they'll say anything to get their clients off.

So I'd say that those in universities, should be called in as experts like people are to sit in on juries, whether they like it or not, and these experts shoul only get a fee comparable to what jurors get, which is not a fortune at all. No incentive to be making up the most outlandishly incredible scenarios, which Torres is keen on doing (my Brit bit coming in here, sorry: ... the silly old fool).

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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

zorba wrote:
Hi Naps,

It's good to want to understand.
Reading their stuff if one doesn't know what Mc just explained though, is dangerous, especially to people who know little about the case.


The hiring in of experts, for plenty money-o, is something I don't like, because then all as it is, for the weekenders, is a few days out, even showing off as that Sarah (Torres partner at that time) woman seemed to be, most importantly though, where money is the main thing how can these people be trusted to uphold all of those ethics, etc, seems to me they'll say anything to get their clients off.

So I'd say that those in universities, should be called in as experts like people are to sit in on juries, whether they like it or not, and these experts shoul only get a fee comparable to what jurors get, which is not a fortune at all. No incentive to be making up the most outlandishly incredible scenarios, which Torres is keen on doing (my Brit bit coming in here, sorry: ... the silly old fool).


I went back to the beginning of the testing, not because I have any deep understanding about DNA, but because I have found, over the course of my lifetime, things generally follow what I refer to as a 'logic of process'.
I know that it might not make sense the way that I try to explain it, but take the Hellman Report vs what Galati wrote.To me, when I read Hellman, it was like a stutter. Stutter, stop, absorb, confusion. Each line was like this. Plodding along, shoes heavy with illogical mud, lost, unsure of the next foothold. Galati almost sang. Even without an understanding of the Italian legal system, he moved, gracefully, simply, from one footstep to the next, leaving me feeling, yes, I saw this, yes, I see where this is going, yes, I agree. Seamless.

The C&V Report is, in a word, muddy. Just like Helllman. I have no idea if it is in the translation or the actual report itself, but, reading it reminded me of the heavy boots, unsure where it is and equally unsure how it got there. Ambiguity.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

McCall wrote:

I do plan to go though C&V and write a detailed explanation of why C&V's findings have been dumped. It isn't a high priority but I plan to do it after I finish my day by day summary of the Massei trial. C&V are out as far as the Italian legal system is concerned but they continue to be a major talking point for defending Knox and Sollecito. As such I think they deserve a page on the wiki where their report gets examined and torn apart.

The interesting thing about C&V's report is that it does not reference mainstream science. If you look at the sources the core of C&V's position is founded on studies published in journals that specifically state that their purpose is to give scientists that can't be published in legitimate journals a place to publish their work. That is a really critical flaw. C&V needed something to reference so when they couldn't find anything in the main forensic journals they just kept looking and eventually found articles and studies in journals with no credibility to use as support for their unconventional positions. The bibliography by itself is sufficient to discredit C&V. The only reason someone uses sources like that is if the mainstream literature does not support their claims. C&V's assignment was to assess the procedures and results of the Scientific Police by the standards of the mainstream literature and the recommendations of the relevant regulatory agency. Instead C&V create their own set of recommendations founded on principles from studies that could not get published in principle journals. To anyone who has worked as a researcher it is obvious that C&V had a predetermined conclusion and that everything else was just an attempt to best support that predetermined conclusion.


I've been looking for a news report, or something in the report that annulled the Hellman appeal, as I want to understand whether any portion of the Conti and Vecchiotti report can be included in the ongoing appeal. Has the Conti and Vecchiotti report been completely eliminated from the appeal, or are there portions that will be considered?
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:14 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Interesting discussion on the lamps. Here's my take on it. Had the perps merely picked up the lamps but their stems in order to move them, they'd not have need to wipe them for prints, as one can hold those in the fist without needing to press the fingertips against them. The reason the lamps were wiped down, was because when placed on the floor the lamps angle of light direction would have been wrong and would have required taking hold of them by their fixed shades and readjusting their angle. Those shades are smoothly painted metal or plastic and as such, it would have been obvious to them that having touched them there would have been prints. So, they had to wipe those shades down and while doing that, they just wiped down the whole lamp each time, just in case.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Jester wrote:
I've been looking for a news report, or something in the report that annulled the Hellman appeal, as I want to understand whether any portion of the Conti and Vecchiotti report can be included in the ongoing appeal. Has the Conti and Vecchiotti report been completely eliminated from the appeal, or are there portions that will be considered?


No ruling has been made to state that the defence are not permitted to refer to the V & C report (It has already been admitted and is now part of the case file). It simply has little value to the defence now, since most of the content has been debunked and the High Court have essentially indicated that most of V & C's claims are shoddy and not credible. However, should the defence request that elements of the report be considered, it will be up to Judge Nencini as to whether he will allow it.

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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Michael wrote:
Jester wrote:
I've been looking for a news report, or something in the report that annulled the Hellman appeal, as I want to understand whether any portion of the Conti and Vecchiotti report can be included in the ongoing appeal. Has the Conti and Vecchiotti report been completely eliminated from the appeal, or are there portions that will be considered?


No ruling has been made to state that the defence are not permitted to refer to the V & C report (It has already been admitted and is now part of the case file). It simply has little value to the defence now, since most of the content has been debunked and the High Court have essentially indicated that most of V & C's claims are shoddy and not credible. However, should the defence request that elements of the report be considered, it will be up to Judge Nencini as to whether he will allow it.


Thanks Michael. Is it possible that the V & C claims about Meredith's DNA being starch could be taken seriously?
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Jester wrote:
Michael wrote:
Jester wrote:
I've been looking for a news report, or something in the report that annulled the Hellman appeal, as I want to understand whether any portion of the Conti and Vecchiotti report can be included in the ongoing appeal. Has the Conti and Vecchiotti report been completely eliminated from the appeal, or are there portions that will be considered?


No ruling has been made to state that the defence are not permitted to refer to the V & C report (It has already been admitted and is now part of the case file). It simply has little value to the defence now, since most of the content has been debunked and the High Court have essentially indicated that most of V & C's claims are shoddy and not credible. However, should the defence request that elements of the report be considered, it will be up to Judge Nencini as to whether he will allow it.


Thanks Michael. Is it possible that the V & C claims about Meredith's DNA being starch could be taken seriously?




Noooo....how can starch possibly match Meredith's DNA profile? And as for the claim that the presence of starch "proves" that the knife wasn't cleaned after the murder, well, that's a nonsense argument. That knife was lying around in a kitchen for days after the murder. There is no way to date even approximately when that starch was deposited and could have happened any time after the knife was cleaned. The starch is one great big red herring and is worthless as evidence of anything other then V & C being dishonest idiots.

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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:14 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

This paragraph comes from the Conclusion section of the C&V Report:

Some samples (A-E-F-H-I) and in particular sample “H”, show granules with a characteristic circular/hexagonal morphology and a radial central structure. A more detailed microscopic study, along with a review of the data present in the literature, allowed it to be determined that the structures in question are attributable to starch granules: therefore material of a vegetable nature.

The sample in question concerning traces of Meredith is sample "B". It is not listed here as having starch granules.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Michael wrote:
Jester wrote:
Michael wrote:
Jester wrote:
I've been looking for a news report, or something in the report that annulled the Hellman appeal, as I want to understand whether any portion of the Conti and Vecchiotti report can be included in the ongoing appeal. Has the Conti and Vecchiotti report been completely eliminated from the appeal, or are there portions that will be considered?


No ruling has been made to state that the defence are not permitted to refer to the V & C report (It has already been admitted and is now part of the case file). It simply has little value to the defence now, since most of the content has been debunked and the High Court have essentially indicated that most of V & C's claims are shoddy and not credible. However, should the defence request that elements of the report be considered, it will be up to Judge Nencini as to whether he will allow it.


Thanks Michael. Is it possible that the V & C claims about Meredith's DNA being starch could be taken seriously?




Noooo....how can starch possibly match Meredith's DNA profile? And as for the claim that the presence of starch "proves" that the knife wasn't cleaned after the murder, well, that's a nonsense argument. That knife was lying around in a kitchen for days after the murder. There is no way to date even approximately when that starch was deposited and could have happened any time after the knife was cleaned. The starch is one great big red herring and is worthless as evidence of anything other then V & C being dishonest idiots.


Thanks. Some information that is available on US news is suggesting that the V & C report is still valid and that it is relevant in this appeal. I had thought that the entire report had been rejected, so it's becoming a bit muddy for me.

CBS Report
October 16, 2013
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162- ... -in-italy/

"One of the big items trashed was the prosecution's claim they had found the knife that killed Meredith Kercher. The supposed murder weapon was discovered in a moment of clairvoyance by a Perugia police officer who apparently knew exactly which knife, among many in a kitchen drawer in Sollecito's apartment, was "the" knife. It was worthy of an episode on MythBusters. And, indeed, the myth was "busted" by the 2011 appellate court when it dismissed the kitchen knife as the weapon that killed Meredith Kercher.

But the Italians would not give up on the knife, and this year the Florence court ordered new DNA tests. There remains one trace bit of evidence, number 36-i, that was never tested. There's been speculation the new tests would prove trace 36-i to be Meredith Kercher's DNA. Effectively guaranteeing guilty verdicts for Knox and Sollecito."

That report suggests that the knife has been dismissed, other than analysis of 36-I, and further suggests that if 36-I does not contain DNA from Meredith or Guede, Sollecito and Knox will be found not guilty. The PR firm seems to have very long arms.


Last edited by Jester on Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Jester wrote:
Michael wrote:
Jester wrote:
Michael wrote:
Jester wrote:
I've been looking for a news report, or something in the report that annulled the Hellman appeal, as I want to understand whether any portion of the Conti and Vecchiotti report can be included in the ongoing appeal. Has the Conti and Vecchiotti report been completely eliminated from the appeal, or are there portions that will be considered?


No ruling has been made to state that the defence are not permitted to refer to the V & C report (It has already been admitted and is now part of the case file). It simply has little value to the defence now, since most of the content has been debunked and the High Court have essentially indicated that most of V & C's claims are shoddy and not credible. However, should the defence request that elements of the report be considered, it will be up to Judge Nencini as to whether he will allow it.


Thanks Michael. Is it possible that the V & C claims about Meredith's DNA being starch could be taken seriously?




Noooo....how can starch possibly match Meredith's DNA profile? And as for the claim that the presence of starch "proves" that the knife wasn't cleaned after the murder, well, that's a nonsense argument. That knife was lying around in a kitchen for days after the murder. There is no way to date even approximately when that starch was deposited and could have happened any time after the knife was cleaned. The starch is one great big red herring and is worthless as evidence of anything other then V & C being dishonest idiots.


Thanks. Some information that is available on US news is suggesting that the V & C report is still valid and that it is relevant in this appeal. I had thought that the entire report had been rejected, so it's becoming a bit muddy for me.


Hi, Jester. You're reading my mind. From the way I'm reading it, sample H will not be accounted for if the C&V report is thrown out in its entirety. Muddy is right.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

jester wrote:
Thanks. Some information that is available on US news is suggesting that the V & C report is still valid and that it is relevant in this appeal. I had thought that the entire report had been rejected, so it's becoming a bit muddy for me.



Wishful thinking and delusion. That parrot is dead.

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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:58 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Thanks Michael and Napia. My understanding is that Meredith's DNA on the knife continues to be part of the evidence, that V & C agreed that there is no evidence of contamination, and that the DNA on the knife is a match to Meredith. If that is the case, I have to wonder why any reputable news organization would not research the facts before publishing. Are the false reports intended to manipulate the US public so that, in the event that the conviction is upheld, the hope is that there will be big public reaction/protest in the US?
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Jester wrote:
Thanks Michael and Napia. My understanding is that Meredith's DNA on the knife continues to be part of the evidence, that V & C agreed that there is no evidence of contamination, and that the DNA on the knife is a match to Meredith. If that is the case, I have to wonder why any reputable news organization would not research the facts before publishing. Are the false reports intended to manipulate the US public so that, in the event that the conviction is upheld, the hope is that there will be big public reaction/protest in the US?



That understanding is correct. The media: There are a few core mainstream media outlets deliberately publishing misinformation on the case and the rest are simply incompetent by repeating their claims by rote.

What surprises me, is how the US media keeps ramming the case (or their version of it) down the public's throats, when there is relatively little public interest in the case and even less public outrage at Knox's plight. It's as though the media are trying to force the public to be interested in the case and sympathetic to Knox. For nearly six years they've been doing it and for nearly six years there have been no public protest marches in support of Knox. It's a mystery to me why they continue to persist. Bloody minded.

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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Michael wrote:
Jester wrote:
Thanks Michael and Napia. My understanding is that Meredith's DNA on the knife continues to be part of the evidence, that V & C agreed that there is no evidence of contamination, and that the DNA on the knife is a match to Meredith. If that is the case, I have to wonder why any reputable news organization would not research the facts before publishing. Are the false reports intended to manipulate the US public so that, in the event that the conviction is upheld, the hope is that there will be big public reaction/protest in the US?



That understanding is correct. The media: There are a few core mainstream media outlets deliberately publishing misinformation on the case and the rest are simply incompetent by repeating their claims by rote.

What surprises me, is how the US media keeps ramming the case (or their version of it) down the public's throats, when there is relatively little public interest in the case and even less public outrage at Knox's plight. It's as though the media are trying to force the public to be interested in the case and sympathetic to Knox. For nearly six years they've been doing it and for nearly six years there have been no public protest marches in support of Knox. It's a mystery to me why they continue to persist. Bloody minded.


That's what's perplexing me at this point. The facts of the case are widely available and they are not ambiguous. Yet the US media seems to be filled with false/incorrect information. Articles related to the case are not related to the facts of the case, but are clear and obvious propaganda. I agree that most people don't care. I've also noticed those that do care are gravitating towards an acceptance that no innocent person would need to reinvent her own words so often.
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Offline jaybee51


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 10:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Pictures of Amanda that were posted on FB.
http://www.alyssawilcoxphotography.com/ ... ng-coffee/
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Offline DoctorRadias


Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:38 pm

Posts: 37

PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 10:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

jaybee51 wrote:
Pictures of Amanda that were posted on FB.
http://www.alyssawilcoxphotography.com/ ... ng-coffee/



Interesting photo of her library -- so that's where all the copies went

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Offline McCall


Joined: Sun May 05, 2013 3:38 pm

Posts: 291

PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 10:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Jester wrote:
McCall wrote:

I do plan to go though C&V and write a detailed explanation of why C&V's findings have been dumped. It isn't a high priority but I plan to do it after I finish my day by day summary of the Massei trial. C&V are out as far as the Italian legal system is concerned but they continue to be a major talking point for defending Knox and Sollecito. As such I think they deserve a page on the wiki where their report gets examined and torn apart.

The interesting thing about C&V's report is that it does not reference mainstream science. If you look at the sources the core of C&V's position is founded on studies published in journals that specifically state that their purpose is to give scientists that can't be published in legitimate journals a place to publish their work. That is a really critical flaw. C&V needed something to reference so when they couldn't find anything in the main forensic journals they just kept looking and eventually found articles and studies in journals with no credibility to use as support for their unconventional positions. The bibliography by itself is sufficient to discredit C&V. The only reason someone uses sources like that is if the mainstream literature does not support their claims. C&V's assignment was to assess the procedures and results of the Scientific Police by the standards of the mainstream literature and the recommendations of the relevant regulatory agency. Instead C&V create their own set of recommendations founded on principles from studies that could not get published in principle journals. To anyone who has worked as a researcher it is obvious that C&V had a predetermined conclusion and that everything else was just an attempt to best support that predetermined conclusion.


I've been looking for a news report, or something in the report that annulled the Hellman appeal, as I want to understand whether any portion of the Conti and Vecchiotti report can be included in the ongoing appeal. Has the Conti and Vecchiotti report been completely eliminated from the appeal, or are there portions that will be considered?


The report is still evidence but it can't be used for anything so it is effectively eliminated as evidence.

So for example C&V argument for contamination was that "anything is possible" and as such that two experts made this statement is still part of the evidence. Florence though is forbidden from using "anything is possible" as a reason to accept contamination. For Florence to accept contamination they would have to base their finding on something other than "anything is possible" and C&V doesn't offer anything else. Since there is no new expert witnesses and nothing else already in evidence establishes an acceptable argument for contamination we can rule out that contamination will be accepted.

All the major claims in C&V have been rejected by Cassation so C&V while still officially part of the record it is useless and can't be relied upon in the new motivation report.
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Offline Jester


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Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:24 pm

Posts: 2500

PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:14 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

McCall wrote:
Jester wrote:
McCall wrote:

I do plan to go though C&V and write a detailed explanation of why C&V's findings have been dumped. It isn't a high priority but I plan to do it after I finish my day by day summary of the Massei trial. C&V are out as far as the Italian legal system is concerned but they continue to be a major talking point for defending Knox and Sollecito. As such I think they deserve a page on the wiki where their report gets examined and torn apart.

The interesting thing about C&V's report is that it does not reference mainstream science. If you look at the sources the core of C&V's position is founded on studies published in journals that specifically state that their purpose is to give scientists that can't be published in legitimate journals a place to publish their work. That is a really critical flaw. C&V needed something to reference so when they couldn't find anything in the main forensic journals they just kept looking and eventually found articles and studies in journals with no credibility to use as support for their unconventional positions. The bibliography by itself is sufficient to discredit C&V. The only reason someone uses sources like that is if the mainstream literature does not support their claims. C&V's assignment was to assess the procedures and results of the Scientific Police by the standards of the mainstream literature and the recommendations of the relevant regulatory agency. Instead C&V create their own set of recommendations founded on principles from studies that could not get published in principle journals. To anyone who has worked as a researcher it is obvious that C&V had a predetermined conclusion and that everything else was just an attempt to best support that predetermined conclusion.


I've been looking for a news report, or something in the report that annulled the Hellman appeal, as I want to understand whether any portion of the Conti and Vecchiotti report can be included in the ongoing appeal. Has the Conti and Vecchiotti report been completely eliminated from the appeal, or are there portions that will be considered?


The report is still evidence but it can't be used for anything so it is effectively eliminated as evidence.

So for example C&V argument for contamination was that "anything is possible" and as such that two experts made this statement is still part of the evidence. Florence though is forbidden from using "anything is possible" as a reason to accept contamination. For Florence to accept contamination they would have to base their finding on something other than "anything is possible" and C&V doesn't offer anything else. Since there is no new expert witnesses and nothing else already in evidence establishes an acceptable argument for contamination we can rule out that contamination will be accepted.

All the major claims in C&V have been rejected by Cassation so C&V while still officially part of the record it is useless and can't be relied upon in the new motivation report.


Thanks. That suggests to me that the strongest piece of evidence regarding the involvement of Sollecito and Knox in the murder would be Meredith's DNA on the knife. It is not being retested, and there's nothing to suggest that the results are invalid. I don't see any way for the appeal decision to be anything other than an affirmation of the guilty verdicts.
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Offline McCall


Joined: Sun May 05, 2013 3:38 pm

Posts: 291

PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:49 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

That Meredith's DNA is on the knife is going to be accepted as valid and that is very strong evidence but there is so much evidence that there is no reason to focus on 36b. I realize people are edgy given what happened with Hellmann but that is not going to happen again. Justice will be served likely before the end of November.
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Offline Jester


User avatar


Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:24 pm

Posts: 2500

PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:29 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

McCall wrote:
That Meredith's DNA is on the knife is going to be accepted as valid and that is very strong evidence but there is so much evidence that there is no reason to focus on 36b. I realize people are edgy given what happened with Hellmann but that is not going to happen again. Justice will be served likely before the end of November.


The DNA evidence confirms what we already know from the circumstantial evidence.
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Offline zorba


User avatar


Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:11 am

Posts: 4233

Location: London

PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:09 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

McCall wrote:
Jester wrote:
McCall wrote:

I do plan to go though C&V and write a detailed explanation of why C&V's findings have been dumped. It isn't a high priority but I plan to do it after I finish my day by day summary of the Massei trial. C&V are out as far as the Italian legal system is concerned but they continue to be a major talking point for defending Knox and Sollecito. As such I think they deserve a page on the wiki where their report gets examined and torn apart.

The interesting thing about C&V's report is that it does not reference mainstream science. If you look at the sources the core of C&V's position is founded on studies published in journals that specifically state that their purpose is to give scientists that can't be published in legitimate journals a place to publish their work. That is a really critical flaw. C&V needed something to reference so when they couldn't find anything in the main forensic journals they just kept looking and eventually found articles and studies in journals with no credibility to use as support for their unconventional positions. The bibliography by itself is sufficient to discredit C&V. The only reason someone uses sources like that is if the mainstream literature does not support their claims. C&V's assignment was to assess the procedures and results of the Scientific Police by the standards of the mainstream literature and the recommendations of the relevant regulatory agency. Instead C&V create their own set of recommendations founded on principles from studies that could not get published in principle journals. To anyone who has worked as a researcher it is obvious that C&V had a predetermined conclusion and that everything else was just an attempt to best support that predetermined conclusion.


I've been looking for a news report, or something in the report that annulled the Hellman appeal, as I want to understand whether any portion of the Conti and Vecchiotti report can be included in the ongoing appeal. Has the Conti and Vecchiotti report been completely eliminated from the appeal, or are there portions that will be considered?


The report is still evidence but it can't be used for anything so it is effectively eliminated as evidence.

So for example C&V argument for contamination was that "anything is possible" and as such that two experts made this statement is still part of the evidence. Florence though is forbidden from using "anything is possible" as a reason to accept contamination. For Florence to accept contamination they would have to base their finding on something other than "anything is possible" and C&V doesn't offer anything else. Since there is no new expert witnesses and nothing else already in evidence establishes an acceptable argument for contamination we can rule out that contamination will be accepted.

All the major claims in C&V have been rejected by Cassation so C&V while still officially part of the record it is useless and can't be relied upon in the new motivation report.


This was on my mind all night, specifically, what you point out here, it doesn't matter about all of the rest that they examined, when the basis, their joining in with the Stefanoni didn't do this, that and the other (thus joining in with the ''the evidence is contaminated'' strategy), without them having any grounds for doing so, except to come up with things in the client's favour, was ruled unacceptable by the court, and then the referencing comes into play as part of that strategy, when they (Vec & Con) are supposed to be impartial.

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