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XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30, 13 - JULY 31, 14

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 7:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Napia5 wrote:
Hi, zorba. I understand your take on this. And I'd like to ask a serious question, based on my utter lack of knowledge about drugs. Is it possible to have 3 people go this far 'off their nut' to commit this horrific murder, and then get straight enough, quickly enough to clean up and stage the way they did? This may have been discussed before, but it's one of the things that I question. I believe I may have said before that drugs may have been involved, but, to what level, do you think?



Hi nap,

Oh yes, most definitely, not on LSD, but on stimulants such as cocaine and amphetamine, a person can vacuum clean the house 25 times in an afternoon, and still be ready to run like a leopard across town, disappearing in a pile of crumbling dust at the end, which means them when they come down.

On speed you wouldn't believe what things people can get into, speed is the street slang for amphetamines, th3se come mostly in powder form, and most people sniff them up the same way cocaine is sniffed tooo, which means the powder is laid out on a some clean (preferably) surface, mirrors the favoured material, the pwder is then chopped with the side of a razor blade, as fine as possible, and then spread out in rows called lines, Avadaba Datden is not an Arab but have a dab of that then.

Cocaine and amphetamine consumed by sniffing is quite fast, as regards effects, so would heroin besniffed, but the favoured way of ingesting heroin is either by injecting it, or by burning it on alu foil, and holding a tube, like even an empty pen, over the smoke rises off of the alu foil, this method risks losing some in thin air but some addicts will go a long time before they somehow give over to injecting it, even addicts you see may hold onto the idea that they are not really that bad, not really addicted, and injecting it would to them mean they are addicted, however situational matterts lead in the end to a person taking it in whatever waty there is if they cannot choose, meaning they have none and someone offers them some, because addicted is addicted whether sniffed, samoked or injected.

Being high on a mix of XTC, speed and or coke, would have rendered them totally able to get into thinking about every kind of angle, yet lead them to into being able to miss certain things which clean or objectively looked at, would never be possible to overlook, like the footprint on the mat, they were so engrossed in the things that they had become fixated upon, that they forget their very own foot stamped in blood.

Both of them to me, looked exactly the way I've seen so many people coming down off a heavy bout of powders. That's why I have always mentioned it, the fact that when Knox stood kissing Sollecito, when she shut her eyes, I could see and still can that she was in another place, she was not just tired she was wasted.

Alcohol and heroin stupify, but cocaine and heroin speed a person up though in slightly different ways, person on speed can endure but this is also true of cocaine, it being used traditionally in country of origin just for that purpose, endurance, women trudging up and down mountainsides carrying heavy loads, chewing the coca leaves they can keep going.

So being out of it, wasted does not mean like laid bag on a puffy cushion rendered incapable of doing anything, it means that your mind and perceptions have been artificially altered.

On weed, hash a person could work stuff out but the danger of speed and coke is that it provides people with so much temporary mental and physical energy that they can come up with stuff they never ordinarily would be able to and so become addicted to that capability, that turns them into someone else, people suddenly feel like superman, superhuman. If they always felt shit suddenly their morose state lifts and they feel not just good they feel exhilarated, so any finishing of that state induces them into wanting to replenish this fuel.

Heroin stops pain as we know, ultimately with physical pain, being administered to cancer patients, but mental pain is placed temporarily in the land of oblivion and that is why certain personalities so easily get to like it (apart from the very, very strong physical addiction causing throgh this mixed with mental dependenvce, to a state wherein the addict can think of nothing else except the next hit and where it is coming from), all of their problems, all of their usual worries, nothing no more, because the heroin becomes the only thing that is important.

Knox, perhaps Sollcito too, not being that used to powders would ungergo intense exhilaration and euphoria, and that mixed with XTC could lead people, such as them, into doing stuff they themselves never dreamed of doing, however many persons have latent dreams and desires which are unl;eashed when that high, and not caring any more, because in an ordinary waking state the usual self-placed blocks on behaviour, become dissipated/dissolved, you fail to self-censor.

An LSD trip lasts from 8 to 12 hours. A line of cocaine may last an hour, depends how many lines you took, A line of amphetamine will give an intense initial rush, all of the powders do, followed by a gradual subsidence, a lessening of effect.

If they started out high I reckon after doing what I think they did, they wouldn't have taken more, leading to the exact state they were discovered in right outside the murder scene, in the cold of wintry November, namely looking greyish tinged, drawn, exasperated, that was lack of sleep not I'm just out of bed and still tired.

I really is the reason Sollecito made up his weak story about: Dad, I will never use the joint again.

To people who know aboput jopints and know about drugs his immensely weak nonsensical excuse does'nt cut the mustard, a joint, 2 joints 10 joints had nothing to do with anything he did and had also nothing to do with him suddenl.y forgetting what he had done a few hours before when years later bioth he and Knox are able to write books depicting ehat they supposedly did back then.


I do not believe a word they say.

They sold their souls at the crossroads.
They cannot buy them back.

Yes someone on speed could repaint an entire house in a day. Same pretty much with someone on coke.

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Last edited by zorba on Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Lord, zorba, you remind me of the time my mother got diet pills from our family doctor 50 years ago! Haven't thought about it in terms of drug use. She took them for 2 months, until my father put his foot down. She cried almost non-stop, hardly ever slept, and cleaned the house repeatedly.

But to commit murder? Something more than this, surely. And psychological issues thrown in also?
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Napia5 wrote:
Lord, zorba, you remind me of the time my mother got diet pills from our family doctor 50 years ago! Haven't thought about it in terms of drug use. She took them for 2 months, until my father put his foot down. She cried almost non-stop, hardly ever slept, and cleaned the house repeatedly.

But to commit murder? Something more than this, surely. And psychological issues thrown in also?


Your poor dad.

Mom: Doctor said it's okay

Dad: Yeah well, I don't care, now will you get down off that chimney top, you're scaring the cats

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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:29 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

zorba wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
Lord, zorba, you remind me of the time my mother got diet pills from our family doctor 50 years ago! Haven't thought about it in terms of drug use. She took them for 2 months, until my father put his foot down. She cried almost non-stop, hardly ever slept, and cleaned the house repeatedly.

But to commit murder? Something more than this, surely. And psychological issues thrown in also?


Your poor dad.

Mom: Doctor said it's okay

Dad: Yeah well, I don't care, now will you get down off that chimney top, you're scaring the cats


It's funny, but it's also pitiful and scarey when you think of it in terms of the thought processes of 50 years ago. At first, both she and my father blamed her mood swings on "The Change". Even though she was taking a new medication, neither of them blamed it, because the doctor prescribed it, and of course, if the doctor says so, it must be safe. So I assume that this was an amphetamine? Speed? I know one thing: it sure did nothing to make her happy or improve her mood.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:04 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Napia5 wrote:
zorba wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
Lord, zorba, you remind me of the time my mother got diet pills from our family doctor 50 years ago! Haven't thought about it in terms of drug use. She took them for 2 months, until my father put his foot down. She cried almost non-stop, hardly ever slept, and cleaned the house repeatedly.

But to commit murder? Something more than this, surely. And psychological issues thrown in also?


Your poor dad.

Mom: Doctor said it's okay

Dad: Yeah well, I don't care, now will you get down off that chimney top, you're scaring the cats


It's funny, but it's also pitiful and scarey when you think of it in terms of the thought processes of 50 years ago. At first, both she and my father blamed her mood swings on "The Change". Even though she was taking a new medication, neither of them blamed it, because the doctor prescribed it, and of course, if the doctor says so, it must be safe. So I assume that this was an amphetamine? Speed? I know one thing: it sure did nothing to make her happy or improve her mood.


no speed is one of the most awful there is, in a way it will ruin people even more than heroin, because if heroin is clean, it isn't going to be real fine for a body but the chemical, completely unnatural drug speed, will do more harm in the long run, in a way, I'd say that people on amphetamines are a sway nuttier than heroin addicts.

Medication, prescribed by your good ol' GP is the worst addiction there is, medicine is the most harmful and hardest habits there are to kick. I know it as I discovered one of my girlfriends was hooked as a sardine on a line, sure did when the cops showed up 5am, to collect her, she had been stealing entire prescription pads from doctor surgeries whenever she got the chance, then filled them in until she got caught each time (after a few days sometimes a week from what I could gather as I soon gave her the sack), at the withdrawal and addition centre, the evening I attended made it clear that medicine is THE heaviest addiction.

Many many women were addicted to doctor prescribed amphetamine to help them lose weight, all as they knew was that it was called slimming pills, and they sure got a liking for them, son of their children too, stealing mom's slimming pills. Very handy if mom is the unofficial part-time unwilling supplier, often without knowing, when she had a while pot, sonny boy jim or sally anne could rip a few, eat them or sell them down the steet.

I'm not sure if the finest purveyors of legal addiction, doctors, still provide no info as to what it is they are directing you to get hooked on, but I think they do not prescribe those pills as slimming pills now.
Thing is, the quality mom had, was better than stuff had around from dealers. I had a chum whose Italian mother was on them for years, those pills, if eaten, would cause a person to be absolutely unable to eat, and be oh so jolly and household-like, la la la all the house is clean and neat, and I do not even need to rest my feet.

I will tell the truth, that chum gave me a bit once, I arrived home for tea, and couldn't eat it, my mother, who knew me as the dustbin and always hungry, got really suspicious when that dinner was still in front of me half an hour later, I didn't know what was happening, I chewed and chewed the same bit and it made me want to chuck up when I tried to down it dorr the gullet, it felt like it was being pushed right back up, like a bad hair do or a mullet.
It never did get to be my thing, man I liked my food way to much, but if you have weight problems, tra la la, lets clean the house, and how we feel so very lively, and more much more than this, I cleaned the yard my way, their were pans, and dirty clothes, I washed the lot and mowed the yard and the neighbour's too but more, much more than this, I ran the
mar-a-thon, twice, backwards, but more, much more than this, cost of living got to be cheap-o, jaws grating just like Sollecit-os.
I thanked da lawd I just never liked what I saw when I saw people using all of that type of junk.

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Last edited by zorba on Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:32 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

All I know is, there was no tra la la, or jolly in MY house during this time. It was like watching Attila the Hun in a skirt.
So now you can perhaps explain where XTC falls, knowing my knowledge of amphetamines. I know I'm asking you to repeat yourself, but can you explain how it is the same? Or different? Or stronger? Or longer-lasting?
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:56 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Napia5 wrote:
All I know is, there was no tra la la, or jolly in MY house during this time. It was like watching Attila the Hun in a skirt.
So now you can perhaps explain where XTC falls, knowing my knowledge of amphetamines. I know I'm asking you to repeat yourself, but can you explain how it is the same? Or different? Or stronger? Or longer-lasting?



MDMA or XTC is a chemical drug which in it's proper form can allow people to get closer, open up and this is why it became so popular, it has been used as a medicine.
People feel a great deal of empathy when under its influence, but since so much of it is not the real thing, then the actual MDMA content may be either minimal or nill, thus mixed with all kinds of truly nasty crap, that's why you hear about people dying, that's not the XTC. The thing is, on XTC, people want to dance, do not like alcohol and may not drink enough.
It draws on the serotinin in the brain the feel good and natural chemical in the brain, a person only has so and so much of it that's why people who over do it with XTC may fall in a deep hole when they come down.

An adulterated drug like this or this, mixed with other drugs can turn the nice about MDMA into a bad experience.
First it could lead a person partly into the feeling of empathy for others but mixed perhaps later with speed it may cause a person to lose the plot.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:59 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

attila in a skirt ahaha

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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:42 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Thanks for taking the time to explain all of this. Zorba. It's mind boggling, truly.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:24 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Napia5 wrote:
Thanks for taking the time to explain all of this. Zorba. It's mind boggling, truly.


You're welcome

Thanks for the lovely music Trooooon

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Guede said, that Meredith called Knox a drugged up tart.

Meredith did not live in Victorian Britain, she would never have said words to this effect just because she thought someone had been smoking joints.

The connective tissue is seen in the things Sollecito said, apparently talking about smoking joints as though it was some thing that could make a person get into terrible trouble, not know what he or she haddone or said, yet if he was as afraid of all of that as he said he was, what then was he up to attending a way out that mass party in the desert of America, known for the psychedelic nature of everything, and absolutely not the place frequented by would-be up and coming priests, dance, music, XTC, and reffer, yep, reefer madness, the idea Sollecito would recall into the world to stir up nutty ideas about what it is, sadly for him, the world is slightly more informed than back in those days when black people were referred to as drugged up crazies out raping your nice white college daughters because they'd smoked the evil reefer.

They were mashed up.
Not on reffer, but on hard drugs.

XTC greatly introducing a warm element, that mixed up and more often than not calling in a sexual tone, that is why people, who never ever woulda before, end up either showing that they like the same sex or perhaps losing any inhibition they had as regards others and participating and openly showing things/participating/expressing things of a sexual nature (not dirty but up-front), this then msy have started out on a good tone, yet became poisoned with properly dirty heavy drugs like speed, which is the manic leading tone, if used as it will play a leading role in combination with other substances, people can end up getting nasty (nothing nice n friendly about speed and people on it) instead of close and friendly, especially if they mix these drugs, have ideas that get all twisted up as a result of the ground tone (problems with self and in relationship to others) that was always there, the ordinary every day make-up including all of the nasty hang-up and rotten ideas about other people, then XTC and speed become propellers driving someone into stuff. This is why Sollecito had attempted to blame everything HE was involved in, on Knox and ion the fact he smoked joints, but the truth as I see it, is the thing they are hiding is linked to what they really took, that Guede already indicated, when he said Meredith had called Knox a drugged up tart, you do not just call someone that for no reason, and you do not call them it if you yourself enjoyed an occasional join,t you don't refer to people as drugged up because you also do not see a joint as drugs because the word drugs is associated with all of the wrong ideas about what diiferent substances are and do, demonising weed when it is a soft, non-addictive substance, it's a natural product, millions of people use it, still work, and do not go nuts.

Using alcohol people can't keep a job down, they may get aggressive, beat on people, cannot take care of themselves or think straight and these reasons are exactly why many make a conscious choice to smoke a few joints rather than get dependent on alcohol.


1) Basically, Sollecito's alibi was: I smoked joints and so lost my memory and that is the reason I am charged with murder, and it is all Amanda Knox's fault if I am in this trouble.

2) His second basic line or alibi is (after reworking his original declarations, polishing them up as far as he could to match hers when in no way did his story match hers in the beginning) she did nothing it is not her fault but I wish I had never laid eyes on her because then I would not be in all of this trouble.

3) Oh dear, he has reworked his original rantings but is saying exactly the same thing, he has put the equation in a different order/format but the = sign reads the same: it was = all her fault.

That's nice of him but does he really have no mind of his own?

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Last edited by zorba on Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Hi, zorba. I'm having trouble with my connections this morning. I'll respond in a bit.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Don't worry El Napsk

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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

The statement, "Drugged up tart" requires more thinking on my part to determine what weight I would place on it in terms of evidence. There are things about Guede which I take to be true, and other things I place less value on. I am ever mindful that he is a murderer, and believe him also to be a liar.

This insult is actually a two-in-one. Drugged up, and tart. In this context, one would hardly think that Meredith would call Knox drugged up, if she were simply referring to the fact that Knox occasionally smoked a joint. This, as I understand it, was pretty common among all of the flat mates and friends. Meredith would hardly single Knox out as drugged up over an occasional joint, because this in effect would actually be an insult defining ALL of their behavior.

Meredith would be unlikely to use the term "tart" as an insult if Knox's boyfriend-seeking behavior was on the same level as Meredith and the rest of her friends. This insult is pretty telling, in terms of the atmosphere at the cottage at that moment.

These two things, added together, make a compelling argument for believing that Guede is telling the truth. He must obviously place himself in the cottage at the time of the murder to be able to say that he witnessed this.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 3:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Napia5 wrote:
The statement, "Drugged up tart" requires more thinking on my part to determine what weight I would place on it in terms of evidence. There are things about Guede which I take to be true, and other things I place less value on. I am ever mindful that he is a murderer, and believe him also to be a liar.

This insult is actually a two-in-one. Drugged up, and tart. In this context, one would hardly think that Meredith would call Knox drugged up, if she were simply referring to the fact that Knox occasionally smoked a joint. This, as I understand it, was pretty common among all of the flat mates and friends. Meredith would hardly single Knox out as drugged up over an occasional joint, because this in effect would actually be an insult defining ALL of their behavior.

Meredith would be unlikely to use the term "tart" as an insult if Knox's boyfriend-seeking behavior was on the same level as Meredith and the rest of her friends. This insult is pretty telling, in terms of the atmosphere at the cottage at that moment.

These two things, added together, make a compelling argument for believing that Guede is telling the truth. He must obviously place himself in the cottage at the time of the murder to be able to say that he witnessed this.


Oh in British English Napsk, drugged up tart is EXACTLY the way someone, also female (and a male could too), would talk to/at someone who is acting in an out of your face way (not from weed/hash but heavy stuff) which is clearly because of being smashed, and if the behaviour was somehow really unacceptable (like Knox behaving indeed like a tart somehow) to Meredith and she became angry, because the sexual of the nature of it, we do not know, then drugged up tart is exactly the way a British person would/could/might express anger at someone, additionally, it is also a typical way some people might joke, but then like this, oh shut up you silly tart. This is then between friends when joking.

Meredith wouldn't have told Knox that in Italian.
And Guede wouldn't have been familiar with such British English.

Meredith did not single anyone out, that is obvious, that was not the way she was, this has nothing to do with singling anyone out, it has to do with reacting to totally unacceptable behaviour, she would though have reacted angrily at Knox's unacceptable behaviour and this would have had nothing at all to do with anyone smoking joints in or out of Meredith's presence, drugged up tart would never in Britain refer to someone using weed or hash, only by totally unknowledgeable people, who think all drugs are the same. I would say the same if someone was in my face and obviously off their nut, and they would not and could not be off their nut in that way to that degree from hash as hash and weed is not like that.

Guede, indeed, a liar, but this then would be too much of a coincidence and wherever in the world would he get TYPICAL British English use of language from?

Like Knox, like Sollecito, Guede provided one of the bits of the puzzle revealing this. Saying this to Knox, would have been part of the point where Knox went into her frenzy, her further degree of totally unreasonable, unfair, unkind behaviour. Whereas a British person might have laughed at that language, because girls refer to one another as silly tarts for fun, totally nice girls/women do at all levels and from all walks of life. Knox would have taken that totally the wrong way whichever way/no matter which way Meredith meant it. I do not think Meredith was saying it as a joke but even in her horror her own manners, humour, came through, but, I really think Meredith was pissed off at Knox, just as I saw in my nightmare when I saw Meredith totally upset and Knox grinning at Meredith's sheer frustration, this vision in the nightmare exactly aligning with what Patrick said about Knox grinning at him from the prison van/truck when he didn't even know yet what she had said about him.

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Offline max


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 3:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Was browsing through the Wiki (http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com) and came across a testimony I hadn't read before. The testimony of Amy Frost about what Knox had told her the morning when the body of Meredith was discovered. Nobody here believes Knox took a shower, but I wasn't aware that she even told it to someone and then later changed her story for some reason.

Quote:
Knox has claimed she took a shower at the house she shared with Kercher on the morning before Kercher's body was discovered there. But Frost said that Knox had told her that morning she had not showered. "Amanda told me she had seen blood [in the bathroom] and therefore decided not to have a shower," she said.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/f ... supporters
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

zorba wrote:
Both of them to me, looked exactly the way I've seen so many people coming down off a heavy bout of powders. That's why I have always mentioned it, the fact that when Knox stood kissing Sollecito, when she shut her eyes, I could see and still can that she was in another place, she was not just tired she was wasted.

Hey Zorba. I snipped this because I was just reading the old Guardian article about how crazy Knox was in the police station. Is there still an aggression when you are coming down? Seems like it. Adrenaline might have kicked in also I guess.
Quote:
"I thought her behaviour at the police station [suggested] she had gone crazy," said Frost, who described herself as Kercher's closest friend among the victim's circle of acquaintances in Perugia. She said Knox's behaviour "seemed to be really inappropriate in that police station".

It is really scary to think how aggressive Knox could have been towards Meredith. Kokomani gave a bit of a picture when he mentioned Knox's big eyes and aggressive behavior. Even Sollecito might have referred to that night when he talks about drug/alcohol cocktails in his book. Scary.
Quote:
He writes a curious passage about girls he knew during his Erasmus semester in Berlin who mixed drugs and heavy drinking one night when he was partying with them. “These weren’t the girls I knew—warm, charming, funny, like sisters to each other, and to me. It was as if robots had overtaken their bodies and were now trying to overtake mine. The next day, I asked the girls what had got into them, and they couldn’t say. They remembered nothing,” he wrote. “I have no idea what was in that cocktail, but the episode taught me how abruptly drinks or drugs can change our perceptions and our personalities. Or rather, it should have taught me.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... emoir.html
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Offline McCall


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Napia5 wrote:
Hi, zorba. I understand your take on this. And I'd like to ask a serious question, based on my utter lack of knowledge about drugs. Is it possible to have 3 people go this far 'off their nut' to commit this horrific murder, and then get straight enough, quickly enough to clean up and stage the way they did? This may have been discussed before, but it's one of the things that I question. I believe I may have said before that drugs may have been involved, but, to what level, do you think?


Drug use and making rational decisions regarding cleaning is not an issue. They were not taking psychedelics. If using cocaine they would have elevated aggression as a reaction to confrontation but they would also have elevated sense of detail. This is true for many of the stimulant type of party drugs. In addition they would have no issues with getting tired. When someone is high on these types of drugs they know what is going on they just have a sense of euphoria and increased energy. You also feel very confident and your ability to assess risk will be impaired.

If you were going to clean a crime scene being high is preferable since you won't get bored and start skipping corners. Normally if you give someone something boring and meticulous to do they do it like that for a little bit then they start cheating and just cutting corners. Someone who is high will just stay at it.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

McCall wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
Hi, zorba. I understand your take on this. And I'd like to ask a serious question, based on my utter lack of knowledge about drugs. Is it possible to have 3 people go this far 'off their nut' to commit this horrific murder, and then get straight enough, quickly enough to clean up and stage the way they did? This may have been discussed before, but it's one of the things that I question. I believe I may have said before that drugs may have been involved, but, to what level, do you think?


Drug use and making rational decisions regarding cleaning is not an issue. They were not taking psychedelics. If using cocaine they would have elevated aggression as a reaction to confrontation but they would also have elevated sense of detail. This is true for many of the stimulant type of party drugs. In addition they would have no issues with getting tired. When someone is high on these types of drugs they know what is going on they just have a sense of euphoria and increased energy. You also feel very confident and your ability to assess risk will be impaired.

If you were going to clean a crime scene being high is preferable since you won't get bored and start skipping corners. Normally if you give someone something boring and meticulous to do they do it like that for a little bit then they start cheating and just cutting corners. Someone who is high will just stay at it.


I'm getting an education on all of this, McCall. It's amazing to think of the number of times in any given day one can see on the news, or read in the paper, or hear from a neighbor that, this or that person was high. Or this person is 'on drugs.' I hear it, I accept it, and basically I had no actual clue what this means. I mean, I know about heroin addicts, and have seen and read articles about someone 'high on PCP' flipping out and becoming psychotic, but I never actually took the time to try to understand the mindset of an individual who is using any of the too-numerous-to-count substances available.

Reading and trying to understand all of the information that I have leads me to the conclusion that, if some or any of these drugs were involved, there is still a psychological factor here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the three got hold of something bad off the streets, bad to the point of causing three people to lose total control, wouldn't you expect to hear that others in Perugia were also adversely affected?

Bad batches don't affect only three people, do they? I am in no way arguing against drug involvement. I just like to be sure that I understand drugs in this context. I believe that the three of them are guilty. But I struggle to believe that drugs were the deciding factor in this crime. Because of the prolonged attack, the use of the knives, the rape, I believe that this awful crime would have taken place regardless what substance was used or not used.

If a person becomes 'out of their mind' on a substance, and brutally murders someone, if it is not part of their worldview to be capable of this, what happens when they 'come down' and realize what they have done?
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Offline McCall


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Losing control would imply a different kind of drug use. You don't lose control from the use of these kinds of drugs. Most of the time you would not be able to tell that someone was high. People do cocaine while at work and unless you know what to look for you'd never know.

If drugs were a factor it would be in how they impair judgement when it comes to risk taking and aggression. People know what they are doing but they have different judgements. The person will seem perfectly normal but when a confrontation happens their response will be much more aggressive. They still know what they are doing they just think it is an appropriate response. Likewise when it comes to risks they don't appreciate how risky something is. They think it is lower risk because part of what cocaine does is make you very confident.

If drugs were a factor the way it would play out is that either Amanda and Meredith got into a conflict and Knox overreacted or Sollecito and Knox were talking about Meredith and because they were high got all worked up and went over looking for a conflict. They would know what they were doing and it doesn't require "bad stuff" or anything like that. It is just bad judgement.

If you are considering a scenario where they were unaware of what they were doing because of drugs you'd need to switch to something like bath salts or PCB. Both of these are possible since bath salts were popular around 2007 and still legal in many places. Weed is sometimes laced with PCB and practice was popular in Perugia. I don't think that kind of high was a factor. I do suspect they were high of coke or speed and that impacted their judgement but they knew what they were doing.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Yes Max scarey, to me sounds, always does, like he is reframing events, that in his story was basically expressing what happened that night, in a round about way, as he felt a need to get it out, but, he is lying, about time, place, etc.


What Mc says/explains Nap, is pretty much the way I see it and know it.

Bad batch that's not it, when drugs are impure they do not go under the name bad batch, that'd something relevant to LSD, only sometimes you'll get someone selling something that is a bad batch of something, for instance that has no XTC in it at all and is even dangerous because some unscrupulous person just wants money and puts any old thin in there, often crushed up painkillers or some rubbish like that. So if they had bad XTC pulls would only have meantthat the amount of XTC in those pills wasn't a lot, or wasn't pure, so other crap was in there, often this is speed, and if apart from that, someone has some speed and coke powders, then people can get really wasted, and any effect of XTC will be overridden, as Mc explained, control though, that is not lost, it's not exactly like a raving lunatic everyone becomes, but people are certainly not their ordinary selves. This there would have been no question of half of Perugia being ill, just these people took their very own mixture of things and this fired by Knox's mentality I imagine, combined with Sollecito's odd personality, they wrre a really unfortunately disastrous couple.

What it is with coke or speed, if a person gets into a thing, they get right into it, that's how someone could get into vacuum cleaning and do it in a way that they never ever could or would or did or shall before or after, any single thing you put your attention too you will do in that way, whether it is stacking empty plastic bottles, tidying the yard, painting a house, brushing your teeth, walking, everything is filled with euphoria, and is rush-based, when that starts to subside, then ill-feelings kick in, a vacuum, and emptiness, and for those inclined, they will prefer to have some more to get rid of the other end of going up so high.

Some people you cannot see anything on them, but not all, on coke too,yet it is true siome will work and nobody will know, not once such a person is used to using it, speed though is perhaps moe easy to notice, it has this effect on people where they grind the teeth and jaws, but also don't eat, talk non stop, which is not necessarily so with coke. But a person on coke will be so kicking onthe ruish that he or she thinks everyone thinks he or she is just great, yet in the eyes of others not high, any such person may come across as weird or manic, big eyes, or too busy, to stuck in an own thing, hard to explain but it does depend on who it is and how long they've been using a thing, I knew of speed freaks who had been doing it so long they could eat on it. I see Sollecito as someone entertaining Knox since she wished to indulge and he had more experience so was pleased with a participant, I think he had experience with more than just weed. In fact, it's known that he did.


It's all wonderful them, the pair of them appearing on TV, etc, all shiny and polished, all nice crisp clothes, well fed, well groomed, but at the time of he murder they were nothing like this, they looked like street dwellers. Scruffy, rancid, crusty, drawn, strained.

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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

McCall wrote:
Losing control would imply a different kind of drug use. You don't lose control from the use of these kinds of drugs. Most of the time you would not be able to tell that someone was high. People do cocaine while at work and unless you know what to look for you'd never know.

If drugs were a factor it would be in how they impair judgement when it comes to risk taking and aggression. People know what they are doing but they have different judgements. The person will seem perfectly normal but when a confrontation happens their response will be much more aggressive. They still know what they are doing they just think it is an appropriate response. Likewise when it comes to risks they don't appreciate how risky something is. They think it is lower risk because part of what cocaine does is make you very confident.

If drugs were a factor the way it would play out is that either Amanda and Meredith got into a conflict and Knox overreacted or Sollecito and Knox were talking about Meredith and because they were high got all worked up and went over looking for a conflict. They would know what they were doing and it doesn't require "bad stuff" or anything like that. It is just bad judgement.

If you are considering a scenario where they were unaware of what they were doing because of drugs you'd need to switch to something like bath salts or PCB. Both of these are possible since bath salts were popular around 2007 and still legal in many places. Weed is sometimes laced with PCB and practice was popular in Perugia. I don't think that kind of high was a factor. I do suspect they were high of coke or speed and that impacted their judgement but they knew what they were doing.


Thanks, McCall. I can't really say that I am considering a particular scenario. I am just trying to understand what a person's mindset would be if they committed a murder under the influence of drugs. Zorba has very patiently been explaining the different drugs and their effects, and I am thinking about whether or not I should factor in 'drug use' as part of a scenario. And more importantly, whether or not drug use, if proven, would add or subtract from the seriousness of the level of the crime, in terms of degree.

I suppose I was thinking about the 'date rape drug', or whether or not there was something that could be taken that causes amnesia, but, no matter what scenario I consider, I still come back to the clean up and staging.

I put myself in a scenario where I take a drug. I get amnesia, only to come around to the fact that I have taken part in a murder. Clean up? Lie? Function later as if nothing happened at a police station? And, if I didn't have amnesia, and knew at the time what was happening, and I cleaned up after, then I would have to say that I knew full well that I was responsible. That some part of me wanted it to happen.

It comes down to, in my mind, that the phrase, "out of their heads on drugs". Not out of their heads at all. Someone wanted this to happen. I'm still seeing murder in the first degree.
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Offline McCall


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

There are drugs that have dissociative properties where you could lose memories. Stuff like G, K, or bath salts. If someone took enough the first two to have memory issues they likely would not be capable of killing someone. The dose required to impair memories is also usually enough to impair body control. The bath salts possibly but bath salts are a fairly esoteric drug.

I do think drugs were likely a factor but I'd say cocaine. It would impair their judgement and make them more aggressive but not their ability to function. It would actually help with any cleaning after.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:38 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

max wrote:
zorba wrote:
Both of them to me, looked exactly the way I've seen so many people coming down off a heavy bout of powders. That's why I have always mentioned it, the fact that when Knox stood kissing Sollecito, when she shut her eyes, I could see and still can that she was in another place, she was not just tired she was wasted.

Hey Zorba. I snipped this because I was just reading the old Guardian article about how crazy Knox was in the police station. Is there still an aggression when you are coming down? Seems like it. Adrenaline might have kicked in also I guess.
Quote:
"I thought her behaviour at the police station [suggested] she had gone crazy," said Frost, who described herself as Kercher's closest friend among the victim's circle of acquaintances in Perugia. She said Knox's behaviour "seemed to be really inappropriate in that police station".

It is really scary to think how aggressive Knox could have been towards Meredith. Kokomani gave a bit of a picture when he mentioned Knox's big eyes and aggressive behavior. Even Sollecito might have referred to that night when he talks about drug/alcohol cocktails in his book. Scary.
Quote:
He writes a curious passage about girls he knew during his Erasmus semester in Berlin who mixed drugs and heavy drinking one night when he was partying with them. “These weren’t the girls I knew—warm, charming, funny, like sisters to each other, and to me. It was as if robots had overtaken their bodies and were now trying to overtake mine. The next day, I asked the girls what had got into them, and they couldn’t say. They remembered nothing,” he wrote. “I have no idea what was in that cocktail, but the episode taught me how abruptly drinks or drugs can change our perceptions and our personalities. Or rather, it should have taught me.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... emoir.html



Hi Max,

I can only imagine that any testimony offered, asked for and or given by the friends Meredith had in Perugia at that time would be and will be closely looked at and taken very seriously as definite markers as to what the real situation was.

Therefore if Amy stated that, I hope that this was repeated in evidence, to the police or in court and if not, someone needs to inform the police in Perugia about it.

I assume what Meredith's friends said is going to count more than what Knox said, for Knox has been shown to tell lies, so who do you believe when a person has been shown to be a liar and others who have totally no reason to make things up, certainly not like this that Amy revealed.

So Knox had several stories involving showers, the shower at Sollecito's wasn't nice so instead of getting up as one does and pretty much immediately getting under that lovely hot water, she supposedly got dressed, took stuff with her across the streets to the other house, empty, and started showering there, supposedly using hair driers and travelling between two bathrooms, yet told Amy she did not take a shower.

Now why would a person tell the police one thing, tell the court one thing, tell the prosecutor one thing but tell Amy another thing. At those moments in the police station, any event like things Knox told the others was always going to get embeddded in their memories, as they were all highly upset, all of your usual lags like inhibitions about showing emotion are wiped as you need to comfort one another, yet what does Knox do, she acts like a wall, is unapproachable, is not warm, is not kind in what she says, not kind one bit, refuses to be embraced, for she obviously felt no empathy or compassion for those who were genuinely completely devastated by what had happened, unlike what the pair of them, Knox and Sollecito, have been saying lately, about caring so much, caring so much that they apparently got the weird idea that it would be decent and appropriate to notify the entire world about how much they would just love to visit Meredith's grave and how much they'd just love to have Meredith's parents and family forget any ideas they had, any beliefs they had about the pair of them having killed Meredith and just join them in visiting Meredith's grave, perhaps then they might also allow Sollecito and Knox into their homes, etc, and I mean are these two individuals totally fucking insane, or what, to propose such things, to make such announcements given the circumstances and the context and KNOWING FULL WELL what Meredith's family think already anyhow. What these acts demonstrate is total defiance, it's equally forced as it was to force Meredith to do whatever she was forced to do, and so is entirely in keeping with every ingredient that was there that night she was murdered.

Drugs used can never nullify what they did for they knew full well what they did then, and after and in between and now, and all of it is totally cunning, calculated and callous, showing as little regard for Meredith's family as was shown to Meredith; this is crystal clear.

If they ever really had wanted to visit Meredith's grave, because of being innocent and actually feeling things for Meredith, then they'd have had the common decency to go about it in a decent way, and not use it to try to sound like they cared, by doing this they created the opposite effect, those who didn't get the level of depravity attached to these two and what they did and do were shown exactly how they are by these latest acts of defiance and sheer brute force: I wuill force my WILL on YOU activities, they used this to try to make it sound like they cared, only now it is clearer than ever that they are totally depraved and bereft of any such feelings of compassion, empathy, sadness about what happened to Meredith.

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Offline max


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:47 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Thanks Zorba. It is strange that she told Amy Frost that she did not take a shower, when the shower story was already told to Filomena. Supposedly also to her mother, but I don't take that very seriously as her mother testified after Knox and she just repeated her daughters story. A long story that AK told in just a short phone call of a minute and a half. Her mom: " She is a fast talker". Whatever!

Anyway, you see Knox playing with these different scenarios. What made her want to change the story is that she probably realized she smelled bad and looked like crap. Nobody would believe her so she considered just being in the bathroom and not actually taking a shower. Then a few days later she changes her mind again and writes that email. Probably thought that claiming to have taken a shower is a good idea in case the police would find traces of her. Then hoping that Amy Frost would have forgotten that 'minor detail'. Totally wrong of course, because indeed people remember the smallest details when horrific events happen.

It is all Knox. Even when Sollecito calls the police it is Knox telling him what to do and make him hangup. I wouldn't be surprised if Knox told him to say that he was surfing the internet. The IT guy really should have known better. He just followed and then when the police is on to him, he immediately fully blames Knox for telling a load of crap. Knox was the leader. I assume it wasn't much different when they attacked poor Meredith.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Oggi in Santa Domingo. RS: "My future is in the Dominican Republic or somewhere else around the world, certainly not in Italy."
http://www.oggi.it/focus/cronaca/2013/1 ... esclusiva/
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Offline Pelerine


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

max wrote:
Oggi in Santa Domingo. RS: "My future is in the Dominican Republic or somewhere else around the world, certainly not in Italy."
http://www.oggi.it/focus/cronaca/2013/1 ... esclusiva/



Good luck then! Once the trial is over and the dust has settled, he will find himself been thrown back into anonymity. And with the limelight fading away and his income steadyly diminishing, "friends" will be disappearing very quickly.
Lots of spare time with nothing reasonable to fill and neverending lonely nights with Merediths shadow increasing.
ff)

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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 1:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Wait. What? Tell me that I'm going to have to go back over the last few weeks to see where this stands now.
I thought he was very angry that Oggi published pictures of him. So, first there is an Oggi interview, an 'exclusive' no less, then he is angry because Oggi publishes the pictures of him. Now, he is giving another exclusive to this same magazine? Did I miss something here?
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 1:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

max wrote:
Thanks Zorba. It is strange that she told Amy Frost that she did not take a shower, when the shower story was already told to Filomena. Supposedly also to her mother, but I don't take that very seriously as her mother testified after Knox and she just repeated her daughters story. A long story that AK told in just a short phone call of a minute and a half. Her mom: " She is a fast talker". Whatever!

Anyway, you see Knox playing with these different scenarios. What made her want to change the story is that she probably realized she smelled bad and looked like crap. Nobody would believe her so she considered just being in the bathroom and not actually taking a shower. Then a few days later she changes her mind again and writes that email. Probably thought that claiming to have taken a shower is a good idea in case the police would find traces of her. Then hoping that Amy Frost would have forgotten that 'minor detail'. Totally wrong of course, because indeed people remember the smallest details when horrific events happen.

It is all Knox. Even when Sollecito calls the police it is Knox telling him what to do and make him hangup. I wouldn't be surprised if Knox told him to say that he was surfing the internet. The IT guy really should have known better. He just followed and then when the police is on to him, he immediately fully blames Knox for telling a load of crap. Knox was the leader. I assume it wasn't much different when they attacked poor Meredith.


Agree with all of that Max

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 1:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

max wrote:
Oggi in Santa Domingo. RS: "My future is in the Dominican Republic or somewhere else around the world, certainly not in Italy."
http://www.oggi.it/focus/cronaca/2013/1 ... esclusiva/



I almost don't know what to say, this man is so thick, all of his pleas and his sorry tales... and were we wrong, was I with my Crusoe tales, it was obvious what he was up to long before he even left Switzerland, kicked out, it was obvious what he would do long before he left New York like a sneak in the night, he may imagine that he can escape by running but he'll find out just how vulnerable he will be.


He has never planned on attending any court in Italy, for this round, he has only said he will so that he allows the court to work along wiith the idea that he is an HONOURABLE GUY; the only way he would ever return at this point is if found not guilty or else at the hands of Interpol or a foreign government that turns out to be not quite pleased with his presence in their fair land as Sollecito imagines they SHOULD be.

I do not think there are many countries that want to get a name as that place where they allow murderers to stay, that place where they give murderers visas, permits.
And once money gets put on his head, that'll be just great in a poverty-stricken country. Aye, they're gonna just love him then.

Idiot.

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Offline dgfred


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 1:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

max wrote:
Thanks Zorba. It is strange that she told Amy Frost that she did not take a shower, when the shower story was already told to Filomena. Supposedly also to her mother, but I don't take that very seriously as her mother testified after Knox and she just repeated her daughters story. A long story that AK told in just a short phone call of a minute and a half. Her mom: " She is a fast talker". Whatever!

Anyway, you see Knox playing with these different scenarios. What made her want to change the story is that she probably realized she smelled bad and looked like crap. Nobody would believe her so she considered just being in the bathroom and not actually taking a shower. Then a few days later she changes her mind again and writes that email. Probably thought that claiming to have taken a shower is a good idea in case the police would find traces of her. Then hoping that Amy Frost would have forgotten that 'minor detail'. Totally wrong of course, because indeed people remember the smallest details when horrific events happen.

It is all Knox. Even when Sollecito calls the police it is Knox telling him what to do and make him hangup. I wouldn't be surprised if Knox told him to say that he was surfing the internet. The IT guy really should have known better. He just followed and then when the police is on to him, he immediately fully blames Knox for telling a load of crap. Knox was the leader. I assume it wasn't much different when they attacked poor Meredith.


Very observant max. I believe she was very experienced with this 'playing' of scenarios. Probably thought she could just keep talking and weasel her way out of 'it' like she had always done. She seems a quick thinker... it is just that her next story is usually more strange/quirky/unbelievable than the last. More like digging the hole deeper.

ih) angel-)
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 1:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Napia5 wrote:
Wait. What? Tell me that I'm going to have to go back over the last few weeks to see where this stands now.
I thought he was very angry that Oggi published pictures of him. So, first there is an Oggi interview, an 'exclusive' no less, then he is angry because Oggi publishes the pictures of him. Now, he is giving another exclusive to this same magazine? Did I miss something here?


They must have offered to reline his bank account

At that point he no longer cares about his so-called honour or anger; oh, I was just kidding, how much did you say?

Escapist: No no, I liked the photos, it's just you should have asked me as these photos are not supposed to be free, I'm sure the price of this interview will more than cover the charge for those, yes yes, 200,000 is fine thank you.

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Offline Slade


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 1:45 pm   Post subject: Re: Meredith deserves a different ending to her life!   

Iodine wrote:
I think Knox was pissy that Meredith didn't like her and didn't enjoy her company. After Meredith left for the evening Knox stole her rent money (because f--k her) and took off with Sollecito, and that's why they turned their phones off later --she probably realized that if/when Meredith noticed the missing money she'd know it was Amanda, so she made herself scarce.

The knife proves anticipation or premeditation of something -- maybe not murder, maybe a prank or just an assault or who-knows-what. With Guede unexpectedly in the picture the plan probably wasn't very serious when it was hatched (thinking only of Amanda here; Raffaele seems like a proper nutcase). I think they brought Guede to the house so that when Meredith noticed later her money was missing they could blame him. It didn't work, Meredith noticed early and knew it was Amanda, her tether snapped and a fight really did break out. They probably jumped on Meredith then, and Raffaele is the one who escalated the attack.

With Amanda as the instigator and Raffaele as the escalator, both can rationalize to themselves that it's the other one's fault, since without that other one nothing major would have happened.


I agree with this so completely, after two years of reading here, and approximately four years of reading at .org, I felt compelled to finally register and post a response to a comment. While I can't prove with direct evidence that AK stole Meredith's rent money the afternoon of the Nov. 1st, 2007, I believe the opportunity to take it was so perfect, that AK who wasn't as well-funded as Meredith, decided she needed the money to buy some more potent drugs for herself and her Italian boy toy. By taking the money, Meredith would discover it missing thereby 'triggering' a confrontation between the two. Plus, such a confrontation could be 'triggered' during a time of AK's choosing.

Permit me to state that I have believed AK & RS guilty of directly participating in Meredith's murder since I read a copy of AK's 'gift' to police in Nov. 2007. I don't understand how anyone of sound mind could read that handwritten bunch of bunk and not conclude the person who wrote it was lying.

The few time I posted at .org I got the prerequisite slamming from a couple of regular posters -- the paranoia there is a bit thick. Should anyone wish to PM me and ask me to show evidence of my almost six-year devotion to justice for Meredith Kercher and her family, I can provide such evidence.

Very much looking forward to Nov. 6th -- if there are 120 picograms of DNA material on that untested trace C&V swabbed on the knife near the other tested trace -- then even the doubters can finally be swayed.

Meredith Kercher's name and beautiful face should never have been associated with a brutal murder. Meredith needs a different ending to her life -- even if it's a fictional one -- much as in the book - 'Atonement.' Of course, AK should never be the one to write it, a person who loved her should provide her a different, more deserving ending.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 1:48 pm   Post subject: MORE FLEEING FELON NEWS   

He's 'learning Spanish', 'might appear in court November 06'. when DNA presented in court. 'I am not a fugitive-for now' 'It would take resources I do not have'.

Speaking of Nov. 06, another person due to appear in court for his separate defamation trial is Frank Sfarzo. Will he show up? His past record indicates otherwise. There was a false alarm about him being in court during the Oct. 04 hearing for assigning experts for DNA testing but on checking, turned out it was Mario Spezi that was there, not Frank Sfarzo :)
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 1:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Welcome to the forum, Slade. While in the past many Amanda Knox groupies have tried to come in and infiltrate PMF they always were identifiable by their underlying passive-aggressiveness and requests that someone 'debate' their ill disguised talking points. It is very difficult to fake sincerity, and your post was anything but false, so you are more than welcome. Looking forward to your insights.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 1:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

zorba wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
Wait. What? Tell me that I'm going to have to go back over the last few weeks to see where this stands now.
I thought he was very angry that Oggi published pictures of him. So, first there is an Oggi interview, an 'exclusive' no less, then he is angry because Oggi publishes the pictures of him. Now, he is giving another exclusive to this same magazine? Did I miss something here?


They must have offered to reline his bank account

At that point he no longer cares about his so-called honour or anger; oh, I was just kidding, how much did you say?

Escapist: No no, I liked the photos, it's just you should have asked me as these photos are not supposed to be free, I'm sure the price of this interview will more than cover the charge for those, yes yes, 200,000 is fine thank you.


It's nothing short of amazing to watch this unfold, Zorba. How many years did we see 'vilified in the media'?
And now? The media is my friend. We will be issuing sound bytes. So the FOA has to drop the evil media phrase, similar to dropping the 'kicked around for 46 days phrase.' You get to know these people by their constant use of the same buzzwords. Evil prosecutor is still front and center, but fading fast. Double jeopardy starts picking up steam.

Just to let you know, since I know how you avoid those sites like the plague, the new buzzword phrase is "NO STONE UNTURNED". That's the super secret hand-shake signal.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:15 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Slade's point about the rent money brings to mind what PM Giuliani Mignini said in his letter to Corriere Fiorentino in response to Mario Spezi's Sept 29 article bringing up, once again, the 'satanic orgies' slander Source:TJMK

Quote:
This is an assertion that Mr. Spezi and crime-fiction author Douglas Preston have been repeating for years, but does not find the smallest confirmation in the documentation of the two trials, nor in the scenario put forward by the prosecution in which the Meredith murder (which didn't happen on Halloween but on the subsequent night) was the consequence of a sex hazing to which Meredith herself did not intend to take part, and, above all, it was the consequence of a climate of hostility which built up progressively between the Coulsdon girl and Amanda because of their different habits, and because of Meredith’s suspicion about alleged money thefts by Knox.


This summary, by PM Mignini, mirrors what I myself believe happened that night.

Amanda Knox was the real thief, and the murderer, of Meredith Kercher.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

You're okay Slade.

Hello, I used to be in the band... just kidding

We're all crazy now, mama

no, but seriously, you failed the secret FOA spy entry codes, Hello, my name is Lovely Cup of Tea Squire and I bet none of you can guess wherefrom I halehaelhail, yes, you've guessed it, I'm from the British Empire, what what. I'm new to the case and I really respect you guys, but...
even though someone died, there's no use in jailing two love kids.

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Ignorance of the law is no excuse


Last edited by zorba on Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Napia5 wrote:
zorba wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
Wait. What? Tell me that I'm going to have to go back over the last few weeks to see where this stands now.
I thought he was very angry that Oggi published pictures of him. So, first there is an Oggi interview, an 'exclusive' no less, then he is angry because Oggi publishes the pictures of him. Now, he is giving another exclusive to this same magazine? Did I miss something here?


They must have offered to reline his bank account

At that point he no longer cares about his so-called honour or anger; oh, I was just kidding, how much did you say?

Escapist: No no, I liked the photos, it's just you should have asked me as these photos are not supposed to be free, I'm sure the price of this interview will more than cover the charge for those, yes yes, 200,000 is fine thank you.


And now? The media is my friend. We will be issuing sound bytes. So the FOA has to drop the evil media phrase, similar to dropping the 'kicked around for 46 days phrase.' You get to know these people by their constant use of the same buzzwords. Evil prosecutor is still front and center, but fading fast. Double jeopardy starts picking up steam.

Just to let you know, since I know how you avoid those sites like the plague, the new buzzword phrase is "NO STONE UNTURNED". That's the super secret hand-shake signal.


It is, yes, what gets me now is seeing what seems to be him just copying the sort of jokes we made about him, I mean, I know I started ages ago saying how he'd go to South America, I don’t know when others started saying similar but the idea he'd copy what he read here is creeping me out.

I'd better think of some alternatives for him.

Though having him actually read what we say and use it as a sort of advice, well, maybe it is good as he has not taken into account all of those connections Catholic God-Loving South Americans have with the Italian Vatican and thus country too (government and law).


Now Mignini is no longer involved in the case it is a waste of time them mentioning him and to start accusing even more people in Florence now, would be hard to sell even to the most avid simpletons.

Judges for justice eh, one man and not even his dog.


That is a non-statement eh, because if judges are supposed to stand for something other than justice then hell knows what the man was doing dishing out sentences to the citizens over there up there in Seattleland.

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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Yes, I remember those suggestions. I seem to recall a scenario where Svartzo runs into a shark, but, I guess you can't have everything.

The Justice website, you must tell me, did you click on it?
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Hello and welcome, Slade.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Napia5 wrote:
Yes, I remember those suggestions. I seem to recall a scenario where Svartzo runs into a shark, but, I guess you can't have everything.

The Justice website, you must tell me, did you click on it?


Sharks, yes, perhps not my one of my brilliant inventions but nonetheless top class, yes.

Click?

Me?

Absolutely-o nott-o

I'm not changing the rules at this late stage in the not-game.

A picture and my eyes upon it was verily enough to ruin my next few semesters

Judges for evil

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

The guy is hardly likely to become a not-crook after having created a CV that notes murder as one of his competences, through murder forced himself to become a rich Caribbean playboy murderer escapee, what?
He's going to be turning a new leaf over or become an even bigger crook


Answer
a) for yes

B) for no

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Offline Underhill


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

zorba wrote:

Judges for justice eh, one man and not even his dog.

That is a non-statement eh, because if judges are supposed to stand for something other than justice then hell knows what the man was doing dishing out sentences to the citizens over there up there in Seattleland.


"Judges for Justice"...what a novel concept! Mind you, wasn't this the judge who was unaware that a judge could have his personal stationery printed which would not be confused with official stationery.

What next? "Roadsweepers for Clean Streets"?
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

I clicked.

When my eyes regained their focus, I clicked on the only other case listed. Clicking of THAT case takes one to a list of newspaper articles about the wrongful conviction of the the fellow. Lo and behold, or maybe not so much, one of the articles quotes extensively another 'expert' a GregH, with whom all of us are more or less familiar.

It's surprising the number of times that paths cross.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:47 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Underhill wrote:
zorba wrote:

Judges for justice eh, one man and not even his dog.

That is a non-statement eh, because if judges are supposed to stand for something other than justice then hell knows what the man was doing dishing out sentences to the citizens over there up there in Seattleland.


"Judges for Justice"...what a novel concept! Mind you, wasn't this the judge who was unaware that a judge could have his personal stationery printed which would not be confused with official stationery.

What next? "Roadsweepers for Clean Streets"?



Ha ha, exactly

that's even funnier than their's

Anyway, daily life, after a hard day's night I got up and instead of shaking some cinnamon into my coffee I used curry powder (same pots different names) I did try to like it, you know like, why, maybe I'm inventing something here, but no, I did have to start again.

I don't know if this can be related to this murder case, like you shake out some stuff and those watching are supposed to believe it's the truth, but the stuff turns out not to be what it seemed and instead of nice little college kids you got nasty little grown ups telling so many lies they even believe them themselves.

So Sollecito, what a change, Switzerland, then the Caribbean.

I guess the place must be overrun with discreet people.

Any special reason you chose the Caribbean Mr Escape Justice Artist?

Escapee: Oh, well, yeah first I thought Switzerland but since it was so cold I thought I'd better move a million miles away from my dad, where the only thing that is cold, comes out of the fridge, I liked Swiss, but decided to leave. I could have stayed, but no, I left.

Reporter: I see so the message is, the world is a free place for murderers, you get in trouble for murder you just switch countries and live happily ever after

So you will continue to fight for those wrongfully arrested here in the Dom Republic, where the police are as corrupt as they gets and are known as murderers in their own right?

Escapee: Er, maybe

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Offline Slade


Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:39 pm

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

zorba wrote:
... I'm new to the case and I really respect you guys, but...
even though someone died, there's no use in jailing two love kids.


Does that sentiment make y'all as angry as it does me?!!! I've fought with the dreaded FOAKers on other forums and can't believe when they post I should 'get over my obsession with further punishing AK & RS' since these two kids have already sacrificed four important years of their lives. What?!!!

So their claim is: OK, so what - they murdered Meredith - but they've also been in prison, be satisfied with that; they've already paid for their crime. NO! Not even close! If they both weren't sociopaths, they would realize they haven't paid, besides they're both still proclaiming they're innocent -- which compounds their guilt!
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Offline Slade


Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:39 pm

Posts: 79

PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ergon wrote:
Slade's point about the rent money brings to mind what PM Giuliani Mignini said in his letter to Corriere Fiorentino in response to Mario Spezi's Sept 29 article bringing up, once again, the 'satanic orgies' slander Source:TJMK

Quote:
This is an assertion that Mr. Spezi and crime-fiction author Douglas Preston have been repeating for years, but does not find the smallest confirmation in the documentation of the two trials, nor in the scenario put forward by the prosecution in which the Meredith murder (which didn't happen on Halloween but on the subsequent night) was the consequence of a sex hazing to which Meredith herself did not intend to take part, and, above all, it was the consequence of a climate of hostility which built up progressively between the Coulsdon girl and Amanda because of their different habits, and because of Meredith’s suspicion about alleged money thefts by Knox.


This summary, by PM Mignini, mirrors what I myself believe happened that night.

Amanda Knox was the real thief, and the murderer, of Meredith Kercher.



Agreed -- before the English translation of Massei report was available I believed AK was the thief. Other clues came from Rudy Guede -- his testimony re: hearing Meredith say "that drugged up tart Amanda" stole her rent money, Rudy's bloody prints on Meredith's purse -- if RG had already taken the cash from the drawer, would he still be looking to steal more money? The phone call to Meredith's bank MAY have been placed by Meredith as soon as she discovered her cash gone, (I realize the call wasn't completed). Hunch is that Meredith needed to determine how much money she had since she would need to replace the stolen rent cash very soon.

And 'drugged up tart' AK was not in the mood to back down from a confrontation, especially since she had reinforcements with her. Agree with Mignini, AK's anger and hatred had been festering; she increased her courage by taking drugs, bringing a big knife, a male entourage, and was itching to show Meredith who's boss.

Besides, AK showed her colors again, when soon after returning to Seattle, WA, she enrolls in hand-to-hand combat self defense training. Meredith must have gotten in a good punch or two on despicable jerk AK, causing AK humiliation she wouldn't soon forget.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

http://www.dominicantoday.com/dr/local/ ... mans-death


http://dominicanwatchdog.org/page-Too_m ... n_Republic


http://dominicanwatchdog.org/dominican_ ... d_Santiago

http://www.dominicantoday.com/dr/local/ ... ng-figures



Dominican Republic
PDF Permalink: http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/hrrpt/hu ... lid=186510


The Dominican Republic is a representative constitutional democracy. In 2008 voters elected President Leonel Fernandez of the Dominican Liberation Party (PLD) for a third term, and in 2010 elections the PLD and its allies won majorities in both chambers of Congress. Impartial outside observers assessed these elections as generally free and fair. There were instances in which elements of the security forces acted independently of civilian control.

The most serious human rights problems were lack of respect for the rule of law, manifested by extrajudicial killings and beatings and other abuse of suspects; violence and discrimination against women, including domestic abuse, rape, and femicide; and severe discrimination against Haitian migrants and their descendants, including the retroactive application of a new immigration policy resulting in de facto statelessness for persons who have lived in the country for generations.

Other human rights problems involved widespread corruption, arbitrary arrest and detention, fair to harsh prison conditions, harassment of certain human rights groups, child prostitution and other abuses of children, trafficking in persons, violence and discrimination against persons based on sexual orientation, ineffective enforcement of labor laws, and child labor.

Although the government took some steps to prosecute and punish police and security officers who committed abuses, there was a widespread perception of impunity afforded to senior officers and other government officials.

Section 1. Respect for the Integrity of the Person, Including Freedom from:Share



___________________

So Crusoe leaves his bad bad Italy for the fantastic country called DR

_________________
Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
Ignorance of the law is no excuse


Last edited by zorba on Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

C'mon Zorba, you're being a bit harsh don't you think? After all, he is on VACATION! I mean seriously, where could you possibly go in the United States for a vacation? Sun and sand. Warm weather. Nope, won't find that here..... Oh, wait a minute......Never mind.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Yeah, Underhill, the very same judge who promised the judicial ethics committee that reprimanded him for his violation not to repeat it again, then proceeded to do just that, through interminable Rotary club meetings where he used his judicial office to attack the judiciary in another G8 country? Who, as part of the Democratic party cabal that runs Seattle, tried to influence Senator Cantwell to intervene, and is still trying? (If it was a Republican cabal, my comments would reflect the same :) as it is apropos of the politics behind this and will come into play when there is an extradition hearing)

Anyhow, this same judge, not being successful in his bid to attack the ethics council chair that reprimanded him, or run for political office, who financially supported fugitive Frank Sfarzo and holidaying Raffaele Sollecito, now has a new gig, based on @AmandaKnox.
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Offline tamale


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:13 pm

Posts: 615

PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Napia5 wrote:
Wait. What? Tell me that I'm going to have to go back over the last few weeks to see where this stands now.
I thought he was very angry that Oggi published pictures of him. So, first there is an Oggi interview, an 'exclusive' no less, then he is angry because Oggi publishes the pictures of him. Now, he is giving another exclusive to this same magazine? Did I miss something here?


Yeah, you missed the secret handshake. I see Raff is still in league with Frank/OGGI pp-(
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Offline tamale


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:13 pm

Posts: 615

PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ergon wrote:
Yeah, Underhill, the very same judge who promised the judicial ethics committee that reprimanded him for his violation not to repeat it again, then proceeded to do just that, through interminable Rotary club meetings where he used his judicial office to attack the judiciary in another G8 country? Who, as part of the Democratic party cabal that runs Seattle, tried to influence Senator Cantwell to intervene, and is still trying? (If it was a Republican cabal, my comments would reflect the same :) as it is apropos of the politics behind this and will come into play when there is an extradition hearing)

Anyhow, this same judge, not being successful in his bid to attack the ethics council chair that reprimanded him, or run for political office, who financially supported fugitive Frank Sfarzo and holidaying Raffaele Sollecito, now has a new gig, based on @AmandaKnox.


"We are only in it for the money." Frank Zappa
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Offline tamale


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:13 pm

Posts: 615

PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ergon wrote:
Slade's point about the rent money brings to mind what PM Giuliani Mignini said in his letter to Corriere Fiorentino in response to Mario Spezi's Sept 29 article bringing up, once again, the 'satanic orgies' slander Source:TJMK

Quote:
This is an assertion that Mr. Spezi and crime-fiction author Douglas Preston have been repeating for years, but does not find the smallest confirmation in the documentation of the two trials, nor in the scenario put forward by the prosecution in which the Meredith murder (which didn't happen on Halloween but on the subsequent night) was the consequence of a sex hazing to which Meredith herself did not intend to take part, and, above all, it was the consequence of a climate of hostility which built up progressively between the Coulsdon girl and Amanda because of their different habits, and because of Meredith’s suspicion about alleged money thefts by Knox.


This summary, by PM Mignini, mirrors what I myself believe happened that night.

Amanda Knox was the real thief, and the murderer, of Meredith Kercher.

The part about Meredith even thinking it was Knox who stole the money...screams volumes.


Last edited by tamale on Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Slade


Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:39 pm

Posts: 79

PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

zorba wrote:
The most serious human rights problems were lack of respect for the rule of law, manifested by extrajudicial killings and beatings and other abuse of suspects; violence and discrimination against women, including domestic abuse, rape, and femicide; and severe discrimination against Haitian migrants and their descendants, including the retroactive application of a new immigration policy resulting in de facto statelessness for persons who have lived in the country for generations.

Other human rights problems involved widespread corruption, arbitrary arrest and detention, fair to harsh prison conditions, harassment of certain human rights groups, child prostitution and other abuses of children, trafficking in persons, violence and discrimination against persons based on sexual orientation, ineffective enforcement of labor laws, and child labor.

Although the government took some steps to prosecute and punish police and security officers who committed abuses, there was a widespread perception of impunity afforded to senior officers and other government officials.

Section 1. Respect for the Integrity of the Person, Including Freedom from:Share

___________________

So Crusoe leaves his bad bad Italy for the fantastic country called DM



Not that I desire to give 'Knife Boy' any ideas -- but in the US on a cable channel devoted to financial news there is a regular series called "American Greed." This series is well done and narrated by Stacy Keach. Each episode is devoted to one or a group of brazen criminals who prey on victims, usually by scams liberating their victims' money from their bank accounts.

Perhaps Raffe Sollecito can develop a media empire called 'Caribbean Greed.' He could profile himself on the first episode -- his pilot episode. RS could discuss his successful blood money book deal, his GoFundMe venture, and his hundreds of thousands of dollars earned from interviews. He could sell opportunities to have photos taken with him alongside his many American (delusional) admirers who travel to DR for sun and visits with their favorite Italian murderer. Special guest appearances by Mandy Knox -- unscheduled of course.
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Offline SonicTed


Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:40 pm

Posts: 2

PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

zorba wrote:
oh, I was just kidding, how much did you say? Escapist: No no, I liked the photos, it's just you should have asked me as these photos are not supposed to be free, I'm sure the price of this interview will more than cover the charge for those, yes yes, 200,000 is fine thank you.



Spot on Zorba. Reminds me of an article I read in the German newspaper "Die Welt" two weeks ago.

"Knox' Ex-Freund Sollecito hält ebenfalls nicht still. Via E-Mail angefragt, antwortet er: "Was bietet ihr mir für das erste Interview in Deutschland? Wo soll es stattfinden?" Den Satz beendet er mit einem Smiley. Als er weiß, dass kein Geld fließt, schreibt er: "Vielen Dank. Ich bin aber gar nicht in Italien. Nicht einmal in Europa."

"Knox' ex boyfriend Sollecito also does not keep quiet. Asked via e-Mail he replies: "What would you offer me for the first interview in Germany? Where should it take place?" He finishes the sentence with a smiley. As soon as he knows that no money will be paid, he writes: "Thank you. But I am not in Italy. Not even in Europe."

http://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article1 ... uchen.html

Now, if I were a suspect in a murder trial, I'd take every chance to declare my innocence - even without being paid. Sollecito is one greedy leech.
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Offline Ava


Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:08 pm

Posts: 943

PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

zorba wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
zorba wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
Wait. What? Tell me that I'm going to have to go back over the last few weeks to see where this stands now.
I thought he was very angry that Oggi published pictures of him. So, first there is an Oggi interview, an 'exclusive' no less, then he is angry because Oggi publishes the pictures of him. Now, he is giving another exclusive to this same magazine? Did I miss something here?


They must have offered to reline his bank account

At that point he no longer cares about his so-called honour or anger; oh, I was just kidding, how much did you say?

Escapist: No no, I liked the photos, it's just you should have asked me as these photos are not supposed to be free, I'm sure the price of this interview will more than cover the charge for those, yes yes, 200,000 is fine thank you.


And now? The media is my friend. We will be issuing sound bytes. So the FOA has to drop the evil media phrase, similar to dropping the 'kicked around for 46 days phrase.' You get to know these people by their constant use of the same buzzwords. Evil prosecutor is still front and center, but fading fast. Double jeopardy starts picking up steam.

Just to let you know, since I know how you avoid those sites like the plague, the new buzzword phrase is "NO STONE UNTURNED". That's the super secret hand-shake signal.


It is, yes, what gets me now is seeing what seems to be him just copying the sort of jokes we made about him, I mean, I know I started ages ago saying how he'd go to South America, I don’t know when others started saying similar but the idea he'd copy what he read here is creeping me out.

I'd better think of some alternatives for him.

Though having him actually read what we say and use it as a sort of advice, well, maybe it is good as he has not taken into account all of those connections Catholic God-Loving South Americans have with the Italian Vatican and thus country too (government and law).


Now Mignini is no longer involved in the case it is a waste of time them mentioning him and to start accusing even more people in Florence now, would be hard to sell even to the most avid simpletons.

Judges for justice eh, one man and not even his dog.


That is a non-statement eh, because if judges are supposed to stand for something other than justice then hell knows what the man was doing dishing out sentences to the citizens over there up there in Seattleland.


Zorba, iirc, you hold the copyright on "TV-interviews from exotic countries" as well, so you might want to ask him for a share of his donation money or something. The library was his idea though...
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Offline Ava


Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:08 pm

Posts: 943

PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:29 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

max wrote:
Thanks Zorba. It is strange that she told Amy Frost that she did not take a shower, when the shower story was already told to Filomena. Supposedly also to her mother, but I don't take that very seriously as her mother testified after Knox and she just repeated her daughters story. A long story that AK told in just a short phone call of a minute and a half. Her mom: " She is a fast talker". Whatever!

Anyway, you see Knox playing with these different scenarios. What made her want to change the story is that she probably realized she smelled bad and looked like crap. Nobody would believe her so she considered just being in the bathroom and not actually taking a shower. Then a few days later she changes her mind again and writes that email. Probably thought that claiming to have taken a shower is a good idea in case the police would find traces of her. Then hoping that Amy Frost would have forgotten that 'minor detail'. Totally wrong of course, because indeed people remember the smallest details when horrific events happen.

It is all Knox. Even when Sollecito calls the police it is Knox telling him what to do and make him hangup. I wouldn't be surprised if Knox told him to say that he was surfing the internet. The IT guy really should have known better. He just followed and then when the police is on to him, he immediately fully blames Knox for telling a load of crap. Knox was the leader. I assume it wasn't much different when they attacked poor Meredith.


I think this is true. Amanda is the only one who acts like she holds a grudge against Meredith even now, whereas RS and RG both seemed to actually truly like Meredith and somehow still do. Also, Amanda's plea to the Kercher family to visit Meredith's grave is far worse than anything Raffaele has ever said about them, iirc.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Welcome, Sonic Ted, and thanks for the translation of leech boy's e-mail request for donations, er, 'interview fees'. Most reputable media companies don't pay for interviews. Unless they are ABC, of course.

Contrast that with the Kerchers, who were offered 500,000 pounds for videos of Meredith's funeral. Which, they being thoroughly decent people, refused.
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Offline tamale


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:13 pm

Posts: 615

PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:38 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ergon wrote:
Welcome, Sonic Ted, and thanks for the translation of leech boy's e-mail request for donations, er, 'interview fees'. Most reputable media companies don't pay for interviews. Unless they are ABC, of course.

Contrast that with the Kerchers, who were offered 500,000 pounds for videos of Meredith's funeral. Which, they being thoroughly decent people, refused.


Welcome Ted pp-(
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Offline tamale


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:13 pm

Posts: 615

PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:46 pm   Post subject: Re: Meredith deserves a different ending to her life!   

Slade wrote:
Iodine wrote:
I think Knox was pissy that Meredith didn't like her and didn't enjoy her company. After Meredith left for the evening Knox stole her rent money (because f--k her) and took off with Sollecito, and that's why they turned their phones off later --she probably realized that if/when Meredith noticed the missing money she'd know it was Amanda, so she made herself scarce.

The knife proves anticipation or premeditation of something -- maybe not murder, maybe a prank or just an assault or who-knows-what. With Guede unexpectedly in the picture the plan probably wasn't very serious when it was hatched (thinking only of Amanda here; Raffaele seems like a proper nutcase). I think they brought Guede to the house so that when Meredith noticed later her money was missing they could blame him. It didn't work, Meredith noticed early and knew it was Amanda, her tether snapped and a fight really did break out. They probably jumped on Meredith then, and Raffaele is the one who escalated the attack.

With Amanda as the instigator and Raffaele as the escalator, both can rationalize to themselves that it's the other one's fault, since without that other one nothing major would have happened.


I agree with this so completely, after two years of reading here, and approximately four years of reading at .org, I felt compelled to finally register and post a response to a comment. While I can't prove with direct evidence that AK stole Meredith's rent money the afternoon of the Nov. 1st, 2007, I believe the opportunity to take it was so perfect, that AK who wasn't as well-funded as Meredith, decided she needed the money to buy some more potent drugs for herself and her Italian boy toy. By taking the money, Meredith would discover it missing thereby 'triggering' a confrontation between the two. Plus, such a confrontation could be 'triggered' during a time of AK's choosing.

Permit me to state that I have believed AK & RS guilty of directly participating in Meredith's murder since I read a copy of AK's 'gift' to police in Nov. 2007. I don't understand how anyone of sound mind could read that handwritten bunch of bunk and not conclude the person who wrote it was lying.

The few time I posted at .org I got the prerequisite slamming from a couple of regular posters -- the paranoia there is a bit thick. Should anyone wish to PM me and ask me to show evidence of my almost six-year devotion to justice for Meredith Kercher and her family, I can provide such evidence.

Very much looking forward to Nov. 6th -- if there are 120 picograms of DNA material on that untested trace C&V swabbed on the knife near the other tested trace -- then even the doubters can finally be swayed.

Meredith Kercher's name and beautiful face should never have been associated with a brutal murder. Meredith needs a different ending to her life -- even if it's a fictional one -- much as in the book - 'Atonement.' Of course, AK should never be the one to write it, a person who loved her should provide her a different, more deserving ending.


Hi..welcome Slade. pp-(
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:29 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Napia5 wrote:
Yes, I remember those suggestions. I seem to recall a scenario where Svartzo runs into a shark, but, I guess you can't have everything.

The Justice website, you must tell me, did you click on it?


Thanks for the reminder, Napia5. I really must order "Sharknado" :)


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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:50 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

I had to google this. No way did I believe that this was an actual movie. What a world.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:05 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Slade wrote:
zorba wrote:
... I'm new to the case and I really respect you guys, but...
even though someone died, there's no use in jailing two love kids.


Does that sentiment make y'all as angry as it does me?!!! I've fought with the dreaded FOAKers on other forums and can't believe when they post I should 'get over my obsession with further punishing AK & RS' since these two kids have already sacrificed four important years of their lives. What?!!!

So their claim is: OK, so what - they murdered Meredith - but they've also been in prison, be satisfied with that; they've already paid for their crime. NO! Not even close! If they both weren't sociopaths, they would realize they haven't paid, besides they're both still proclaiming they're innocent -- which compounds their guilt!


Hi, Slade.The Groupies (as I call them) were never the real focus, though it always was good to see them act our their little scripts. That's why I didn't want to get snobbish about them, or make a thing about 'not reading their blog'. Always interesting to figure out their psychology, and the mechanics of belief systems. Reading them was how I knew when Frank was coming to America, or Steve Shay's feud with Bruce Fischer, or how Halkides, Kassin, and Ron Hendry, instead of applying to the court for standing as independent experts, instead stove-piped their briefs through the defense team while claiming state side about being 'instrumental' in the release of Amanda Knox. So yes, a report of the whole PR campaign would be interesting to write, and it's good to write this in a space with fellow believers in justice for Meredith Kercher, and not where those who want to engage in rhetorical gymnastics with us in places like Huffington Post, or horrors, Ground Report, congregate :)
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:01 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ergon wrote:
Slade wrote:
zorba wrote:
... I'm new to the case and I really respect you guys, but...
even though someone died, there's no use in jailing two love kids.


Does that sentiment make y'all as angry as it does me?!!! I've fought with the dreaded FOAKers on other forums and can't believe when they post I should 'get over my obsession with further punishing AK & RS' since these two kids have already sacrificed four important years of their lives. What?!!!

So their claim is: OK, so what - they murdered Meredith - but they've also been in prison, be satisfied with that; they've already paid for their crime. NO! Not even close! If they both weren't sociopaths, they would realize they haven't paid, besides they're both still proclaiming they're innocent -- which compounds their guilt!


Hi, Slade.The Groupies (as I call them) were never the real focus, though it always was good to see them act our their little scripts. That's why I didn't want to get snobbish about them, or make a thing about 'not reading their blog'. Always interesting to figure out their psychology, and the mechanics of belief systems. Reading them was how I knew when Frank was coming to America, or Steve Shay's feud with Bruce Fischer, or how Halkides, Kassin, and Ron Hendry, instead of applying to the court for standing as independent experts, instead stove-piped their briefs through the defense team while claiming state side about being 'instrumental' in the release of Amanda Knox. So yes, a report of the whole PR campaign would be interesting to write, and it's good to write this in a space with fellow believers in justice for Meredith Kercher, and not where those who want to engage in rhetorical gymnastics with us in places like Huffington Post, or horrors, Ground Report, congregate :)



Ergon, you could never make a thing about not going to their sites like I do because your thing is to go there ALL THE TIME, reproducing entire posts of what they said and then what you said back to them HERE.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:17 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Napia5 wrote:
C'mon Zorba, you're being a bit harsh don't you think? After all, he is on VACATION! I mean seriously, where could you possibly go in the United States for a vacation? Sun and sand. Warm weather. Nope, won't find that here..... Oh, wait a minute......Never mind.


Correct, coming from the expansive Italy he thought, mmm, these United States are great but, er, there's not a lot of space, I'd better move to an island one with a reputation for trade in children and women with one of its main consorts; police violence, where corruption is rife then write fairy tales about how it so much better is, oh me, oh my, it makes so much sense. Yes in places on the planet, countries, where there is terrible inequality between people, many living right next door to one another, the done thing is to build gated communities, now ain't that a great thing too, gated communities where the super rich live in a cage to keep the super poor out.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:25 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Slade wrote:
zorba wrote:
... I'm new to the case and I really respect you guys, but...
even though someone died, there's no use in jailing two love kids.


Does that sentiment make y'all as angry as it does me?!!! I've fought with the dreaded FOAKers on other forums and can't believe when they post I should 'get over my obsession with further punishing AK & RS' since these two kids have already sacrificed four important years of their lives. What?!!!

So their claim is: OK, so what - they murdered Meredith - but they've also been in prison, be satisfied with that; they've already paid for their crime. NO! Not even close! If they both weren't sociopaths, they would realize they haven't paid, besides they're both still proclaiming they're innocent -- which compounds their guilt!



The cruelty involved in the crimes is a magnet for people with the same mentality. A line like that one is typical of the cruel things these people have said, they feel nothing and protecting the killers does not mean that they actually feel for them either; it's a springboard/platform for their own deranged thinking.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:43 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Slade wrote:
zorba wrote:
The most serious human rights problems were lack of respect for the rule of law, manifested by extrajudicial killings and beatings and other abuse of suspects; violence and discrimination against women, including domestic abuse, rape, and femicide; and severe discrimination against Haitian migrants and their descendants, including the retroactive application of a new immigration policy resulting in de facto statelessness for persons who have lived in the country for generations.

Other human rights problems involved widespread corruption, arbitrary arrest and detention, fair to harsh prison conditions, harassment of certain human rights groups, child prostitution and other abuses of children, trafficking in persons, violence and discrimination against persons based on sexual orientation, ineffective enforcement of labor laws, and child labor.

Although the government took some steps to prosecute and punish police and security officers who committed abuses, there was a widespread perception of impunity afforded to senior officers and other government officials.

Section 1. Respect for the Integrity of the Person, Including Freedom from:Share

___________________

So Crusoe leaves his bad bad Italy for the fantastic country called DM



Not that I desire to give 'Knife Boy' any ideas -- but in the US on a cable channel devoted to financial news there is a regular series called "American Greed." This series is well done and narrated by Stacy Keach. Each episode is devoted to one or a group of brazen criminals who prey on victims, usually by scams liberating their victims' money from their bank accounts.

Perhaps Raffe Sollecito can develop a media empire called 'Caribbean Greed.' He could profile himself on the first episode -- his pilot episode. RS could discuss his successful blood money book deal, his GoFundMe venture, and his hundreds of thousands of dollars earned from interviews. He could sell opportunities to have photos taken with him alongside his many American (delusional) admirers who travel to DR for sun and visits with their favorite Italian murderer. Special guest appearances by Mandy Knox -- unscheduled of course.



Right, I wouldn't give him anything on a plate as regards ideas, as he seems tio be taking things worked out by those who stand against him as a way to find out what to do next. As we started talking about where could he possibly go, and we ruled out Asia, as he'd likely get handed over, but South America with the reputation as being a safe haven in some cases, seems to have been picked up on by him, but South America after the Second World War years is not the place it was back in those grey days, what with develope countries suffering crises, fimnancial and otherwise, where thousands are losing their jobs and have no sense of security, not like that enjoyed for some time in the boom years, where there was a feeling of optimism and where anyway as poer tradition people took jobs and mnaybe remained with those jobs until pension, unlie now where nobody knows if tomorrow yet another system will be introduced leading to the loss of hundreds of thousands of jobs, as people become unnecessary, so the under developed countries need all of the good naming, good terms, good relationships with powerful countries that they can get, are Catholic countries, which many of South America are in that so many follow that religion, going to upset the Italians when they request that Sollecito be extradited, I'm not sure but I do not imagine they will want that, all for a person like Sollecito, what can he provide them with? Nothing, because he's an official beggar, he's advertised it, they want providers, enablers, not takers and cadgers. What in hell do they want with a rotten soul such as that? They have enough trouble to deal with.
The only way he will stay anywhere is through corruption but will he be able to request donation money so that he can pay off corrupt government officials, like those who provide visas, and that with all of the publicity about him, much of it self-generated? No, do no think so somehow.

Get shot of him is what they'll say, here Italy, here he is. He's not exactly a fighter for human rights.
He is a fighter for no rights at all, not even to life.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 11:14 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ava wrote:
zorba wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
zorba wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
Wait. What? Tell me that I'm going to have to go back over the last few weeks to see where this stands now.
I thought he was very angry that Oggi published pictures of him. So, first there is an Oggi interview, an 'exclusive' no less, then he is angry because Oggi publishes the pictures of him. Now, he is giving another exclusive to this same magazine? Did I miss something here?


They must have offered to reline his bank account

At that point he no longer cares about his so-called honour or anger; oh, I was just kidding, how much did you say?

Escapist: No no, I liked the photos, it's just you should have asked me as these photos are not supposed to be free, I'm sure the price of this interview will more than cover the charge for those, yes yes, 200,000 is fine thank you.


And now? The media is my friend. We will be issuing sound bytes. So the FOA has to drop the evil media phrase, similar to dropping the 'kicked around for 46 days phrase.' You get to know these people by their constant use of the same buzzwords. Evil prosecutor is still front and center, but fading fast. Double jeopardy starts picking up steam.

Just to let you know, since I know how you avoid those sites like the plague, the new buzzword phrase is "NO STONE UNTURNED". That's the super secret hand-shake signal.


It is, yes, what gets me now is seeing what seems to be him just copying the sort of jokes we made about him, I mean, I know I started ages ago saying how he'd go to South America, I don’t know when others started saying similar but the idea he'd copy what he read here is creeping me out.

I'd better think of some alternatives for him.

Though having him actually read what we say and use it as a sort of advice, well, maybe it is good as he has not taken into account all of those connections Catholic God-Loving South Americans have with the Italian Vatican and thus country too (government and law).


Now Mignini is no longer involved in the case it is a waste of time them mentioning him and to start accusing even more people in Florence now, would be hard to sell even to the most avid simpletons.

Judges for justice eh, one man and not even his dog.


That is a non-statement eh, because if judges are supposed to stand for something other than justice then hell knows what the man was doing dishing out sentences to the citizens over there up there in Seattleland.


Zorba, iirc, you hold the copyright on "TV-interviews from exotic countries" as well, so you might want to ask him for a share of his donation money or something. The library was his idea though...




Hi Ava,

Thank you, and I mean for awarding me the contract, I will not let you or the others down, I shall be bringing quality sioaops straight from prisons around the DR, where I'm guessing the Italian may lamd up if he isn't careful, even if he is careful, he's going t be worth money, but not the way he has become accustomed to it, no, the money wil in omne way or another be placed on his head, or rather, those locals, certain gangs, will kidnap jhim and demand a ransom, that's the kind of holiday inthe sun he actually deserves.

What will dad then do
We have your son, pay 5 million or we start sending you his body parts.

That or his new business ventures like how to set up your own donate page with no prior experience dot con have people demanding their money back when the accounts remain empty.

If one had not been in the news but was on the run like Sollecito obviously is then one could pay off certain people and be given status in some poor country, however, I cannot see that working for him.

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Offline dgfred


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Napia5 wrote:
I had to google this. No way did I believe that this was an actual movie. What a world.



Brace yourself Napia... there is talk of a sequel. nw)
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Offline Slade


Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:39 pm

Posts: 79

PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. Will they run?   

zorba wrote:
Slade wrote:
zorba wrote:

... The only way he will stay anywhere is through corruption but will he be able to request donation money so that he can pay off corrupt government officials, like those who provide visas, and that with all of the publicity about him, much of it self-generated? No, do no think so somehow.

Get shot of him is what they'll say, here Italy, here he is. He's not exactly a fighter for human rights.
He is a fighter for no rights at all, not even to life.


I'm sure you've heard about crazy former billionaire, John McAfee, and his escapades in Belize. He shared a few ideas re: how he managed to escape authorities. Raffe is as motivated to stay free, and mafia connections will surely be useful.

Much depends on the strength of Italy's desire to locate and extradite the two. If a substantial reward is offered, there are probably professional and amateur bounty hunters more than happy to nab either of them, or at least, inform on them.

I'm torn re: whether they'll run; and if they do run, how long will either of them remain free. If they run, and they're caught, their excuse will be: I'm innocent and innocent people don't belong in prison. Since they have both mentioned in interviews the word 'fugitive,' I have to assume they are at least considering the idea seriously.
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Offline Slade


Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:39 pm

Posts: 79

PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 3:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ergon wrote:
Slade wrote:
zorba wrote:
Hi, Slade.The Groupies (as I call them) were never the real focus, though it always was good to see them act our their little scripts. That's why I didn't want to get snobbish about them, or make a thing about 'not reading their blog'. Always interesting to figure out their psychology, and the mechanics of belief systems. Reading them was how I knew when Frank was coming to America, or Steve Shay's feud with Bruce Fischer, or how Halkides, Kassin, and Ron Hendry, instead of applying to the court for standing as independent experts, instead stove-piped their briefs through the defense team while claiming state side about being 'instrumental' in the release of Amanda Knox. So yes, a report of the whole PR campaign would be interesting to write, and it's good to write this in a space with fellow believers in justice for Meredith Kercher, and not where those who want to engage in rhetorical gymnastics with us in places like Huffington Post, or horrors, Ground Report, congregate :)


Didn't Peter Q. from TJMK trademark the word Groupies? That's one reason I avoid using it, or use a small 'g'; although the word's very descriptive of their attitudes. I give you kudos for the battles you've taken on with them. Frankly I don't have that much patience for the same DENY! DENY! DENY! excuse strategy from them. There are message board forums, other than IIP, or is it IA now, that have been active since 2009. Of course, many deranged FOAKers, with their never give up our fight for our little angels, show up everywhere with their vitriolic attacks on anyone not accepting of their special narrative. What's amusing is that they call on their FOAKer buddies to attack in packs, as if sheer quantity of opinions is supposed to mean they're right.

This is a case for the ages. B/c of its length and international scope, and the PR battle waged, this phenomenon has to be appealing for any academic interested in mass communications, persuasion, and propaganda tactics. I'm hoping instead of prevailing, the propaganda machine is thwarted, the final outcome is justice for Meredith, the extradition battle is swift and sure, with the two murderers finally residing in a prison for a minimum of 20 years each.

I have especially enjoyed the photos of Perugia you've posted. Plus, that you travelled to Perugia, and attended court sessions takes great devotion to Meredith's cause -- have a feeling Meredith would be almost embarrassed by the amount of attention the brutality to her has created.

I can barely stand to imagine the horror of having to look in the face of AK -- one of the last faces you see in your life, plunging a knife deeply into your neck immediately after you've screamed loudly hoping for help fighting three murdering abominations of humanity.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 3:29 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

zorba wrote:

Ergon, you could never make a thing about not going to their sites like I do because your thing is to go there ALL THE TIME, reproducing entire posts of what they said and then what you said back to them HERE.


So? It was a general statement not addressed to you personally as you seem to make a habit of doing. I stated why I disagreed with that attitude, zorba, just as I might disagree with hyperbole about how I go there all the time and bring it back here. In my 3660 posts, what's the ratio for what I write about them vs the rest? And, since many of the last 'entire posts of what they said' were actually written by other posters, you just might be mistaken anyway. But yeah, I probably was the first, and I think that exposing them and their PR activities was important. It is especially important right now as political overtures are being made to help Amanda Knox escape an extradition request, and put out a new PR front with the media. And yes, I engage with them, and the media, and anyone to help bring justice for Meredith. Feel free to scroll by, with all due respect.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 3:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Slade wrote:
Ergon wrote:
Slade wrote:
zorba wrote:
Hi, Slade.The Groupies (as I call them) were never the real focus, though it always was good to see them act our their little scripts. That's why I didn't want to get snobbish about them, or make a thing about 'not reading their blog'. Always interesting to figure out their psychology, and the mechanics of belief systems. Reading them was how I knew when Frank was coming to America, or Steve Shay's feud with Bruce Fischer, or how Halkides, Kassin, and Ron Hendry, instead of applying to the court for standing as independent experts, instead stove-piped their briefs through the defense team while claiming state side about being 'instrumental' in the release of Amanda Knox. So yes, a report of the whole PR campaign would be interesting to write, and it's good to write this in a space with fellow believers in justice for Meredith Kercher, and not where those who want to engage in rhetorical gymnastics with us in places like Huffington Post, or horrors, Ground Report, congregate :)


Didn't Peter Q. from TJMK trademark the word Groupies? That's one reason I avoid using it, or use a small 'g'; although the word's very descriptive of their attitudes. I give you kudos for the battles you've taken on with them. Frankly I don't have that much patience for the same DENY! DENY! DENY! excuse strategy from them. There are message board forums, other than IIP, or is it IA now, that have been active since 2009. Of course, many deranged FOAKers, with their never give up our fight for our little angels, show up everywhere with their vitriolic attacks on anyone not accepting of their special narrative. What's amusing is that they call on their FOAKer buddies to attack in packs, as if sheer quantity of opinions is supposed to mean they're right.

This is a case for the ages. B/c of its length and international scope, and the PR battle waged, this phenomenon has to be appealing for any academic interested in mass communications, persuasion, and propaganda tactics. I'm hoping instead of prevailing, the propaganda machine is thwarted, the final outcome is justice for Meredith, the extradition battle is swift and sure, with the two murderers finally residing in a prison for a minimum of 20 years each.

I have especially enjoyed the photos of Perugia you've posted. Plus, that you travelled to Perugia, and attended court sessions takes great devotion to Meredith's cause -- have a feeling Meredith would be almost embarrassed by the amount of attention the brutality to her has created.

I can barely stand to imagine the horror of having to look in the face of AK -- one of the last faces you see in your life, plunging a knife deeply into your neck immediately after you've screamed loudly hoping for help fighting three murdering abominations of humanity.


Thx, Slade :) I may have used 'Groupies' when I started engaging with them, on Huffington Post almost two years before I was invited by Pete to come on board but can't claim ownership of such a easy term. Yes, it indeed was the techniques of mass persuasion used there that intrigued me, but every once in a while, I do step back, as we all must from engaging with them directly.

I did not ask to be given all the information I received. But it is my role to present information, and what people do with it is up to them. But I also saw the pictures of the bruises on her body, and the deep wound and cuts, and the many tortures inflicted on her. I have young daughters and could therefore empathize with what the Kerchers must have had to go through. That is why I made a commitment, to see this through to the end.
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Offline jeffski


Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:46 am

Posts: 46

PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ergon wrote:
zorba wrote:

Ergon, you could never make a thing about not going to their sites like I do because your thing is to go there ALL THE TIME, reproducing entire posts of what they said and then what you said back to them HERE.


So? It was a general statement not addressed to you personally as you seem to make a habit of doing. I stated why I disagreed with that attitude, zorba, just as I might disagree with hyperbole about how I go there all the time and bring it back here. In my 3660 posts, what's the ratio for what I write about them vs the rest? And, since many of the last 'entire posts of what they said' were actually written by other posters, you just might be mistaken anyway. But yeah, I probably was the first, and I think that exposing them and their PR activities was important. It is especially important right now as political overtures are being made to help Amanda Knox escape an extradition request, and put out a new PR front with the media. And yes, I engage with them, and the media, and anyone to help bring justice for Meredith. Feel free to scroll by, with all due respect.


Agree with Ergon 100%. If no one engaged with the Knoxiets they would go unchallenged with their outrageous lies. They would be free to pollute the media comments sections & social media sites at will.

The recent "twitterstorm" has at last given Meredith & the Kerchers a voice IMO.

I don't post much on either PMF's or TJMK now days but follow closely on all pro truth/justice sites & am active on twitter.

Jeff
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Offline zorba


User avatar


Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:11 am

Posts: 4233

Location: London

PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 5:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ergon wrote:
zorba wrote:

Ergon, you could never make a thing about not going to their sites like I do because your thing is to go there ALL THE TIME, reproducing entire posts of what they said and then what you said back to them HERE.


So? It was a general statement not addressed to you personally as you seem to make a habit of doing. I stated why I disagreed with that attitude, zorba, just as I might disagree with hyperbole about how I go there all the time and bring it back here. In my 3660 posts, what's the ratio for what I write about them vs the rest? And, since many of the last 'entire posts of what they said' were actually written by other posters, you just might be mistaken anyway. But yeah, I probably was the first, and I think that exposing them and their PR activities was important. It is especially important right now as political overtures are being made to help Amanda Knox escape an extradition request, and put out a new PR front with the media. And yes, I engage with them, and the media, and anyone to help bring justice for Meredith. Feel free to scroll by, with all due respect.


Come off it Ergon as if I care, fact is you could never make any point of not engaging with them, as I pointed out, because you do, all the time, end of, that's your choice, I also write on other places, but the idea they'd go unchallenged as Jeffski states, is untrue, as the challenging them on their sites remains there as hardly anyone knows about them unless people here, etc., write about them all of the time, I'm proud I've never even looked there, fuck them, everyone can choose what they do, to an extent, as I write here but I have no choice about having to see what they write as you had the practice of acting like this site was or is an extension of theirs, anyway, I solved that by deciding to scroll past all of the info about such people as in links to their sites, that's my choice, I'm not interested in reading that crap from crap people like them, I think you are a patient nivce person but I do think you have a tendency to go too far in ideas of conspiracies, etc.

I simply do nor agree on bringing stuff like about politics and this aggrandising as if those people are all part of some huge conspiracy, doing that makes you as bad as they are Ergon, they are just nasty people, all this about them all being part of or an extension of the mafia is really insane, you must realise that dear chap.

Spezi is Spezi and a lunatic like Moore and wife is so different, they have one thing in common, that's telling lies and being absolute c...s

_________________
Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
Ignorance of the law is no excuse
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Offline Napia5


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Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:23 pm

Posts: 1893

PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:14 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

hbc) ...Holy cannoli, Batman, what was that all about?
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Offline dgfred


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:19 pm

Posts: 1082

Location: N.C., USA

Highscores: 13

PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Hey Napia... now there is even a 'Shark Avalanche' one coming out. Haha.
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Offline Napia5


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Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:23 pm

Posts: 1893

PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

dgfred wrote:
Hey Napia... now there is even a 'Shark Avalanche' one coming out. Haha.


You're just looking to put me on tilt, dgfred, and I know it. When you inform me of these things, try to keep in mind that I avoided television for an entire year once, after I mistakenly tuned into a movie called. "The Rocky Horror Picture Show." I still can't eat toast!
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Offline guermantes

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Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:49 am

Posts: 4883

PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

More nonsense from Dr.Drew:

NEW DAY CNN (VIDEO)
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Offline guermantes

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User avatar


Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:49 am

Posts: 4883

PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

What to expect from the retesting of the DNA on the knife in the Amanda Knox case?

New update from Andrea Vogt:

Amanda Knox Appeal II / Meredith Kercher Murder
Update Oct. 9, 2013

The new forensic testing of the knife ordered by Judge Alessandro Nencini at the start of Amanda Knox’s appeals trial in Florence is going ahead at the Caribinieri RIS laboratories in Rome. But how crucial will the results be to appeal outcome?


THE FREELANCE DESK
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Offline Slade


Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:39 pm

Posts: 79

PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30   

guermantes wrote:
More nonsense from Dr.Drew:

NEW DAY CNN (VIDEO)




Nonsense is right! Dr. Drew Pinsky can't seem to help himself from commenting on a case of which he knows nothing. Anyone who has ever listened to his mostly female panels of nuts, especially a particularly stupid young female with clown red hair, they would realize 'Dr. Drew' is low-brow entertainment at its worst.

Dr. Drew should stick with helping pampered celebrities get sober!
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Offline Napia5


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Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:23 pm

Posts: 1893

PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

I saw Dr. Drew's show, "Celebrity Rehab". It was to me an odd premise, because it was difficult to understand how a patient would develop a trusting and confidential relationship with a therapist with the knowledge that millions (hopefully) of people were watching. But, nobody was actually forced to participate, from what I understand.
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Offline Aranavachi


User avatar


Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:14 pm

Posts: 88

PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 11:54 pm   Post subject: Re: Meredith deserves a different ending to her life!   

Slade wrote:
Iodine wrote:
I think Knox was pissy that Meredith didn't like her and didn't enjoy her company. After Meredith left for the evening Knox stole her rent money (because f--k her) and took off with Sollecito, and that's why they turned their phones off later --she probably realized that if/when Meredith noticed the missing money she'd know it was Amanda, so she made herself scarce.

The knife proves anticipation or premeditation of something -- maybe not murder, maybe a prank or just an assault or who-knows-what. With Guede unexpectedly in the picture the plan probably wasn't very serious when it was hatched (thinking only of Amanda here; Raffaele seems like a proper nutcase). I think they brought Guede to the house so that when Meredith noticed later her money was missing they could blame him. It didn't work, Meredith noticed early and knew it was Amanda, her tether snapped and a fight really did break out. They probably jumped on Meredith then, and Raffaele is the one who escalated the attack.

With Amanda as the instigator and Raffaele as the escalator, both can rationalize to themselves that it's the other one's fault, since without that other one nothing major would have happened.


I agree with this so completely, after two years of reading here, and approximately four years of reading at .org, I felt compelled to finally register and post a response to a comment. While I can't prove with direct evidence that AK stole Meredith's rent money the afternoon of the Nov. 1st, 2007, I believe the opportunity to take it was so perfect, that AK who wasn't as well-funded as Meredith, decided she needed the money to buy some more potent drugs for herself and her Italian boy toy. By taking the money, Meredith would discover it missing thereby 'triggering' a confrontation between the two. Plus, such a confrontation could be 'triggered' during a time of AK's choosing.

Permit me to state that I have believed AK & RS guilty of directly participating in Meredith's murder since I read a copy of AK's 'gift' to police in Nov. 2007. I don't understand how anyone of sound mind could read that handwritten bunch of bunk and not conclude the person who wrote it was lying.

The few time I posted at .org I got the prerequisite slamming from a couple of regular posters -- the paranoia there is a bit thick. Should anyone wish to PM me and ask me to show evidence of my almost six-year devotion to justice for Meredith Kercher and her family, I can provide such evidence.

Very much looking forward to Nov. 6th -- if there are 120 picograms of DNA material on that untested trace C&V swabbed on the knife near the other tested trace -- then even the doubters can finally be swayed.

Meredith Kercher's name and beautiful face should never have been associated with a brutal murder. Meredith needs a different ending to her life -- even if it's a fictional one -- much as in the book - 'Atonement.' Of course, AK should never be the one to write it, a person who loved her should provide her a different, more deserving ending.


Hi Slade,

It has been over 2 years since I last posted a comment on this case, however after reading your comment regarding .org I felt I should sign up her and write in complete agreement. Though I should say that when I did post on .org a couple of years ago -though I had been posting on other sites for a good couple of years and was and am completely convinced of the guilt of AK and RS. My experiment was to see how people would respond. I was attacked big time! For no reason, other than expressing doubt on guilt. I wrote that I wanted to find out more about the case... This was in part a selfish motive to observe the reaction of the board to an outsider, I had noticed sometime that people get totally slammed for very innocent questions - the whole board will start reading into who they are and who is paying them - "paranoia is tick" as you put it. I was attacked big time! For no reason, other than expressing doubt on guilt. I was labelled with all the relevant FOA names etc. At that point I stopped posting everywhere - the people who believe AK is guilty are often I have found no better than those who believe she is innocent. This to me is very sad. While I posted, I had many conversations about the case with people who changed their mind about their belief in the innocence of the two 'lovers'. IMHO this is the whole point of these forums and posts etc - so by charging anyone who makes a comment about innocence, those people are alienated.

I continue to read around to find out developments on the case, and am eager to hear the results of the DNA test - which I understand is to be carried out tomorrow...
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Offline jaybee51


Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:19 pm

Posts: 112

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 12:04 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Hi Aranavachi. Welcome. What name did you post under at .org?
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Offline Napia5


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Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:23 pm

Posts: 1893

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 12:41 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Hi, aranavachi. Welcome to the board, I hope. I kinda get from your post that you signed up on another board and posted something under false pretenses and got nailed, yes? Frankly, I think I would have kicked your ass to the curb too, because that was dishonest.

Anyway, welcome, I think.
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Offline tamale


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:13 pm

Posts: 615

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 12:41 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

jeffski wrote:
Ergon wrote:
zorba wrote:

Ergon, you could never make a thing about not going to their sites like I do because your thing is to go there ALL THE TIME, reproducing entire posts of what they said and then what you said back to them HERE.


So? It was a general statement not addressed to you personally as you seem to make a habit of doing. I stated why I disagreed with that attitude, zorba, just as I might disagree with hyperbole about how I go there all the time and bring it back here. In my 3660 posts, what's the ratio for what I write about them vs the rest? And, since many of the last 'entire posts of what they said' were actually written by other posters, you just might be mistaken anyway. But yeah, I probably was the first, and I think that exposing them and their PR activities was important. It is especially important right now as political overtures are being made to help Amanda Knox escape an extradition request, and put out a new PR front with the media. And yes, I engage with them, and the media, and anyone to help bring justice for Meredith. Feel free to scroll by, with all due respect.


Agree with Ergon 100%. If no one engaged with the Knoxiets they would go unchallenged with their outrageous lies. They would be free to pollute the media comments sections & social media sites at will.

The recent "twitterstorm" has at last given Meredith & the Kerchers a voice IMO.

I don't post much on either PMF's or TJMK now days but follow closely on all pro truth/justice sites & am active on twitter.

Jeff

The lies must be countered...and I do believe we are seeing some success. Ergon has my vote of confidence 100%
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:56 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Cara Delevingne to star in Amanda Knox film - but unlikely to play lead "Foxy" role
By Clemmie Moodie

MIRROR
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Offline Aranavachi


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Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:14 pm

Posts: 88

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:57 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Napia5 wrote:
Hi, aranavachi. Welcome to the board, I hope. I kinda get from your post that you signed up on another board and posted something under false pretenses and got nailed, yes? Frankly, I think I would have kicked your ass to the curb too, because that was dishonest.

Anyway, welcome, I think.



Hi Napia,

Thank you for the welcome I guess.

From the first post I was under attack and all I had expressed was some doubt in the guilt of the two. Yes, perhaps I deserved the reaction, in fact I did deserve it - but no one knew it was under false pretenses (not possible from the very first post). The fact that upsets me is that people who genuinely come along and have questions get slammed for being FOA.

Its not my board and it not my community, I was making an observation. They had the right to kick me to the curb, but it doesnt detract from the point I made...

If I am welcome to join the conversation here, it would be nice to discuss this case which I have followed for years. I also understand if I am not.

In any case I should say I appreciate reading here, there and elsewhere to keep up to date with the case and therefore I very much appreciate the efforts of everyone to these sites. Especially the translators. Many thanks!
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Offline Aranavachi


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Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:14 pm

Posts: 88

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:59 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

jaybee51 wrote:
Hi Aranavachi. Welcome. What name did you post under at .org?


Hi Jaybee51

Honestly I cant remember, but my name on Youtube and TJMK was Giselle1403. I only posted on .org for a couple of days and that was enough for me.
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Offline max


Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:55 am

Posts: 1564

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:31 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Knife testing starts today (10/10). Nothing found will be bad for the defence (C&V messed up), Meredith or Guede will be bad for defence, somebody else seems impossible, some mixture will be used by the defence to make contamination claims but I doubt it matters. Don't think we will hear anything till November though :)
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Offline Ergon

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Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:20 pm

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Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:01 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Hi, zorba, I was talking to new member Slade and not your good self, based on what he said about the FOAKER's. I also most certainly was not referring to you or anyone except myself when I said. "That's why I didn't want to get snobbish about them, or make a thing about 'not reading their blog'." and gave the reasons why I thought it was useful.

Yes, it also was in part a response to his criticism about .ORG being "paranoid" about newcomers and so yes, I was, without being critical, in mind how many in PMF had made it a point for years to say "they never read Bruce Fischer's blog" yet when it finally became obvious why it was important, then now, many do. (Though it has become a shadow of its pre SfarzoGate days, haha) If being point man on this issue makes me a target, well, I have this rhino hide :)

Likewise, yes, it seems just a little while ago when the remnants of the refugees from the James Randi Forum wars still made it a point to decry any "mason" "occult" and "conspiracy" elements but you know what, they come around, and do discuss it on the other forums, and you can express your opinion all you want, duly noted. There are others that find it interesting, so just scroll by.
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Offline Ergon

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Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:20 pm

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Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:41 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

And welcome to DotNet, Aranavachi. Sorry for your rough experience, er, elsewhere :) Yes, I noticed your welcome, and never mind. You weren't the only one ;) If you have any questions, I'm sure we can accommodate. Having met many like you outside of this hermetically sealed environment :) I don't think you are a dyed in the wool FOA, and take your word you believe in guilt. No crime in posting under other names elsewhere, I don't care about that. This case intrigues many, and I never tire of asking people, what drew you to this case?

ETA: I missed your full reply to Slade, it's been a long day. Good night, all.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:13 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

jeffski wrote:
Ergon wrote:
zorba wrote:

Ergon, you could never make a thing about not going to their sites like I do because your thing is to go there ALL THE TIME, reproducing entire posts of what they said and then what you said back to them HERE.


So? It was a general statement not addressed to you personally as you seem to make a habit of doing. I stated why I disagreed with that attitude, zorba, just as I might disagree with hyperbole about how I go there all the time and bring it back here. In my 3660 posts, what's the ratio for what I write about them vs the rest? And, since many of the last 'entire posts of what they said' were actually written by other posters, you just might be mistaken anyway. But yeah, I probably was the first, and I think that exposing them and their PR activities was important. It is especially important right now as political overtures are being made to help Amanda Knox escape an extradition request, and put out a new PR front with the media. And yes, I engage with them, and the media, and anyone to help bring justice for Meredith. Feel free to scroll by, with all due respect.


Agree with Ergon 100%. If no one engaged with the Knoxiets they would go unchallenged with their outrageous lies. They would be free to pollute the media comments sections & social media sites at will.

The recent "twitterstorm" has at last given Meredith & the Kerchers a voice IMO.

I don't post much on either PMF's or TJMK now days but follow closely on all pro truth/justice sites & am active on twitter.

Jeff


Thanks, Jeffski. It might well be asked, why did so many people stop posting on PMF? I've already written about that, and don't wish to bring up old wounds or criticize. But I will point out that by engaging with the FOA on Huffington Post at length, I did in fact bring over many new members to first TJMK, and then .ORG, before I even knew there was a .NET, LOL.

I also pointed out that NET and ORG should at least cooperate, and am glad that is now taking place, and what McCall and Underhill and the first posters did at the TMOMK Wiki is of course deserving of our complete support.

And yes, I did post and engage with several hundred comments on Ground Report and over five hundred during the recent Twitter Storm, and it was fun. In one day, two people retweeted my TJMK link to over 8000+ followers, and similar numbers were made whenever I linked to the other sites.

As Slade pointed out, the Amandii (definitely my invention, as was "Amandan Exceptionalism" :) do give us lessons in how the tools of mass suasion are used by the media, and their behavior is indeed a reflection of why they are so attracted to Knox and Sollecito. But there was a huge PR push in days gone by, and if some had not countered it, or brought it to other's attention and ask for assistance, they would have been left as winners of the field.
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Offline jaybee51


Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:19 pm

Posts: 112

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:23 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

:D Hi Aranavachi.

Found your postings - and it made fascinating reading!
So nothing's changed since then.

th-) The nice posters are still open-minded and friendly.
ss) And the aggressive posters are still ego-driven know-it-alls .................
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Offline Jester


User avatar


Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:24 pm

Posts: 2500

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:24 am   Post subject: Re: Meredith deserves a different ending to her life!   

Aranavachi wrote:

Hi Slade,

It has been over 2 years since I last posted a comment on this case, however after reading your comment regarding .org I felt I should sign up her and write in complete agreement. Though I should say that when I did post on .org a couple of years ago -though I had been posting on other sites for a good couple of years and was and am completely convinced of the guilt of AK and RS. My experiment was to see how people would respond. I was attacked big time! For no reason, other than expressing doubt on guilt. I wrote that I wanted to find out more about the case... This was in part a selfish motive to observe the reaction of the board to an outsider, I had noticed sometime that people get totally slammed for very innocent questions - the whole board will start reading into who they are and who is paying them - "paranoia is tick" as you put it. I was attacked big time! For no reason, other than expressing doubt on guilt. I was labelled with all the relevant FOA names etc. At that point I stopped posting everywhere - the people who believe AK is guilty are often I have found no better than those who believe she is innocent. This to me is very sad. While I posted, I had many conversations about the case with people who changed their mind about their belief in the innocence of the two 'lovers'. IMHO this is the whole point of these forums and posts etc - so by charging anyone who makes a comment about innocence, those people are alienated.

I continue to read around to find out developments on the case, and am eager to hear the results of the DNA test - which I understand is to be carried out tomorrow...


Not addressed in my direction, nevertheless, interesting thought. I have noticed many new faces in the "potentially guilty" discussions. I don't think there is a concern with pre-judging someone that remarks on the case ... here ... hope not. As for other organizations, they can be known for irrational thoughts and resulting irrational actions that leave rational considerations wondering what happened.

Slade, I like the theory about the money. How does it go sequentially? Is this a scenario that fits the facts?

Halloween is over, Knox and Sollecito are eating pasta in the kitchen, Meredith is finishing up her laundry before heading out for dinner with friends. At around 4 PM, she leaves. Knox and Sollecito get stoned ... probably again. They want some cocaine ... Day of the Dead means something to someone that recently lost his mother. They need money so they take Meredith's rent money, perhaps thinking that Knox can replace it before Meredith notices. They return to Sollecito's apartment. Perhaps, along the way, they meet Rudy at the location that Amanda "usually" sees him in the palazzo, near the kabob. Sollecito and Knox give Guede money for cocaine? Sollecito and Knox gave different stories about the route they took to his apartment. Maybe the reason relates to hooking up with Rudy for some cocaine. Then we have Kokomaini, the cocaine head. Wasn't he near the cottage. Anyway, let's assume that Rudy scored some cocaine from Kokomaini's friends and he shared it with Knox and Sollecito at the cottage. Suppose they were acting like olive jars on the road. Cocaine would do that.

So, they're in the cottage, in Filomina and Laura's bathroom and they're rowdy in the kitchen. Meredith wanted to study, is tired, and notices her money missing and accuses Knox of stealing. She contacts the bank to check the finances for more rent money, but the call is cut short. Didn't she also call her mother and there was no answer or that call was unanswered? Was that call placed on the way home?

The situation escalates and it becomes three on one in Meredith's bedroom. That would suggest that Meredith was attacked shortly after the bank call was made. 10 minutes for the attack, Rudy ran first? Were the footsteps on the metal steps at 10:30? When was Guede seen running down the street? Knox and Sollecito grabbed the cell phones and keys, walked down the road and tossed the phones. They returned to the cottage with the keys to lock Meredith's bedroom and to stage the scene. They would have stayed hyper alert, like with cocaine, until 6 AM.

Sollecito turned on the computer stereo at 6 AM when they arrived, they slept for four hours and then they started working on getting their story straight ... no more Gubbio. Knox returns to the cottage to clean up, telling Meredith's friend Frost that she did not shower that morning.

When does Kokomaini claim that he saw the olive jars? Was it before or after 9 PM? It would make sense if it was around 9:30-ish. Is "people pretending to be olive jars on the road" something that was said by Kokomaini, the Albanian that recently died? He was a heroine addict, but he knew the coke heads?
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Offline jaybee51


Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:19 pm

Posts: 112

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:53 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

:D Hi Aranavachi.

Found your postings - and it made fascinating reading!
So nothing's changed since then.

th-) The nice posters are still open-minded and friendly.
ss) And the aggressive posters are still ego-driven know-it-alls .................
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Offline Jester


User avatar


Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:24 pm

Posts: 2500

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:01 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Saint Amanda





Available in chocolates: St Amanda



Perhaps, we shouldn't prejudge.

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Offline Jester


User avatar


Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:24 pm

Posts: 2500

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:08 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ergon wrote:
jeffski wrote:
Ergon wrote:
zorba wrote:

Ergon, you could never make a thing about not going to their sites like I do because your thing is to go there ALL THE TIME, reproducing entire posts of what they said and then what you said back to them HERE.


So? It was a general statement not addressed to you personally as you seem to make a habit of doing. I stated why I disagreed with that attitude, zorba, just as I might disagree with hyperbole about how I go there all the time and bring it back here. In my 3660 posts, what's the ratio for what I write about them vs the rest? And, since many of the last 'entire posts of what they said' were actually written by other posters, you just might be mistaken anyway. But yeah, I probably was the first, and I think that exposing them and their PR activities was important. It is especially important right now as political overtures are being made to help Amanda Knox escape an extradition request, and put out a new PR front with the media. And yes, I engage with them, and the media, and anyone to help bring justice for Meredith. Feel free to scroll by, with all due respect.


Agree with Ergon 100%. If no one engaged with the Knoxiets they would go unchallenged with their outrageous lies. They would be free to pollute the media comments sections & social media sites at will.

The recent "twitterstorm" has at last given Meredith & the Kerchers a voice IMO.

I don't post much on either PMF's or TJMK now days but follow closely on all pro truth/justice sites & am active on twitter.

Jeff


Thanks, Jeffski. It might well be asked, why did so many people stop posting on PMF? I've already written about that, and don't wish to bring up old wounds or criticize. But I will point out that by engaging with the FOA on Huffington Post at length, I did in fact bring over many new members to first TJMK, and then .ORG, before I even knew there was a .NET, LOL.

I also pointed out that NET and ORG should at least cooperate, and am glad that is now taking place, and what McCall and Underhill and the first posters did at the TMOMK Wiki is of course deserving of our complete support.

And yes, I did post and engage with several hundred comments on Ground Report and over five hundred during the recent Twitter Storm, and it was fun. In one day, two people retweeted my TJMK link to over 8000+ followers, and similar numbers were made whenever I linked to the other sites.

As Slade pointed out, the Amandii (definitely my invention, as was "Amandan Exceptionalism" :) do give us lessons in how the tools of mass suasion are used by the media, and their behavior is indeed a reflection of why they are so attracted to Knox and Sollecito. But there was a huge PR push in days gone by, and if some had not countered it, or brought it to other's attention and ask for assistance, they would have been left as winners of the field.










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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:21 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

This is one Knox should be proud to show to her grand children: soda can label





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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:25 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   



That's enough to give anyone an epileptic seizure

Sorry for spamming the board with graphics, but sometimes it helps to shift the paradigm.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:00 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Well Ergon, it's probably good what you're doing but this is heaven and over in those places it must be hell, so in the sterile laboratory here, I really hate letting the the viruses in here, and every one of thw words issuing forth out of the gobshitey mouths of those murderer enablers, is a virus.
Amen

I have a soft costituency stomach-wise and have to abandon all stations at the mere sound of any first letter adherent to the enablers and funders, running to the WC I oft go, body reacting as though poisoned by plutinium, the cleaning lady really has a hard time scraping stuff off the walls from floor to ceiling, friends, they used to come around, until word got around, some still arrived though dressed in full body suit of protective uniforms complete with gas masks, twas never a pretty sight, then I took to eating unripe bananas, but the gas would build up unable to escape until it did, had to find a way out, like Sollecito, but won't, many times taking out the neighbour's side wall or back fence, I am not that well-liked in the neighbourhood, dogs cannot take it either, and have VACATED THE EMPTIED 3-MILE ZONE AROUND MY LODGINGS, I say lodgings, it's a sort of encampment built from bits of old boarding and twigs I was able to find, I am pedalling to create electricity as I write and so is a chorus line of parrots all with left footed claws chained to a self-designed electricity generator, they're well-fed so they like the extra exercise, I'm not complaining but if people here should feel they need to donate, their hiomes, pensions, savings, click HERE

_________________
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 12:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

@Jester, graphics are just fine. How about a Bonnie And Clyde theme, or a pregnanto meter? :-)
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Offline Napia5


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Posts: 1893

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Aranavachi wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
Hi, aranavachi. Welcome to the board, I hope. I kinda get from your post that you signed up on another board and posted something under false pretenses and got nailed, yes? Frankly, I think I would have kicked your ass to the curb too, because that was dishonest.

Anyway, welcome, I think.



Hi Napia,

Thank you for the welcome I guess.


Good morning! I'd post some sort of "truce" smiley here, but, finding one and figuring out how to import it here would take me the better part of a day, you know how it is.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Jester.... I'm dazzled.
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Offline dgfred


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:19 pm

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Location: N.C., USA

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30   

Slade wrote:
guermantes wrote:
More nonsense from Dr.Drew:

NEW DAY CNN (VIDEO)




Nonsense is right! Dr. Drew Pinsky can't seem to help himself from commenting on a case of which he knows nothing. Anyone who has ever listened to his mostly female panels of nuts, especially a particularly stupid young female with clown red hair, they would realize 'Dr. Drew' is low-brow entertainment at its worst.

Dr. Drew should stick with helping pampered celebrities get sober!


Hey Slade. Every time I see your post I think of Gretchen's man on Housewives show is)

Hey Avaranchi. What exactly was your doubt in guilt related to? Has that changed?

Thanks to Jester! hugz-)
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Offline Slade


Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:39 pm

Posts: 79

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:18 pm   Post subject: Re: At PMF.org -- paranoia is thick!   

Aranavachi wrote:
Slade wrote:
Iodine wrote:

The few time I posted at .org I got the prerequisite slamming from a couple of regular posters -- the paranoia there is a bit thick. Should anyone wish to PM me and ask me to show evidence of my almost six-year devotion to justice for Meredith Kercher and her family, I can provide such evidence.


Hi Slade,

It has been over 2 years since I last posted a comment on this case, however after reading your comment regarding .org I felt I should sign up her and write in complete agreement. Though I should say that when I did post on .org a couple of years ago -though I had been posting on other sites for a good couple of years and was and am completely convinced of the guilt of AK and RS. My experiment was to see how people would respond. I was attacked big time! For no reason, other than expressing doubt on guilt. I wrote that I wanted to find out more about the case... This was in part a selfish motive to observe the reaction of the board to an outsider, I had noticed sometime that people get totally slammed for very innocent questions - the whole board will start reading into who they are and who is paying them - "paranoia is thick" as you put it. I was attacked big time! For no reason, other than expressing doubt on guilt. I was labelled with all the relevant FOA names etc. At that point I stopped posting everywhere - the people who believe AK is guilty are often I have found no better than those who believe she is innocent. This to me is very sad.


You got similar treatment from .org that I got, but the difference is -- I never expressed the slightest doubt of my belief in their absolute guilt! That's why I was surprised by the reaction of some -- not all, of course. Skeptical Bystander, Admin, will often stop some of the overzealous, mean-spirited attacks by pointing out the person posting comments never expressed an opinion they believed either of the two may be innocent.

Other than when first hearing the initial news reports about AK's arrest, my first thought was, surely not; this is probably a mistake by police wanting to solve the murder quickly and calm students. THEN, I read AK's 'gift' to police --released by a British online news org less than two weeks after AK's arrest, and I was convinced she was involved. Then I started looking for news outside of the US to get a more well-rounded view of what may have happened. US media completely failed on their coverage of the case.

I wasn't 'experimenting' as you put it -- I was grateful for the people who were doing translations of Italian court documents and news article, giving overviews of what the general opinions were, and evidence tidbits to support my own arguments for guilt. Why not use the research others have found and formulated -- that's why I continued reading there. But if you express an opinion, even stating that your opinion is a theory, a couple of frequent, long-time posters will get their panties in a wad demanding direct evidence of your theory, simply b/c you're a new poster. Guess I felt as if 'what do I have to do send you an oath in blood!'
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Offline Slade


Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:39 pm

Posts: 79

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:14 pm   Post subject: Re: Meredith deserves a different ending to her life!   

Jester wrote:
Slade, I like the theory about the money. How does it go sequentially? Is this a scenario that fits the facts?

Halloween is over, Knox and Sollecito are eating pasta in the kitchen, Meredith is finishing up her laundry before heading out for dinner with friends. At around 4 PM, she leaves. Knox and Sollecito get stoned ... probably again. They want some cocaine ... Day of the Dead means something to someone that recently lost his mother. They need money so they take Meredith's rent money, perhaps thinking that Knox can replace it before Meredith notices. They return to Sollecito's apartment. Perhaps, along the way, they meet Rudy at the location that Amanda "usually" sees him in the palazzo, near the kabob. Sollecito and Knox give Guede money for cocaine? Sollecito and Knox gave different stories about the route they took to his apartment. Maybe the reason relates to hooking up with Rudy for some cocaine. Then we have Kokomaini, the cocaine head. Wasn't he near the cottage. Anyway, let's assume that Rudy scored some cocaine from Kokomaini's friends and he shared it with Knox and Sollecito at the cottage. Suppose they were acting like olive jars on the road. Cocaine would do that.

So, they're in the cottage, in Filomina and Laura's bathroom and they're rowdy in the kitchen. Meredith wanted to study, is tired, and notices her money missing and accuses Knox of stealing. She contacts the bank to check the finances for more rent money, but the call is cut short. Didn't she also call her mother and there was no answer or that call was unanswered? Was that call placed on the way home?

The situation escalates and it becomes three on one in Meredith's bedroom. That would suggest that Meredith was attacked shortly after the bank call was made. 10 minutes for the attack, Rudy ran first? Were the footsteps on the metal steps at 10:30? When was Guede seen running down the street? Knox and Sollecito grabbed the cell phones and keys, walked down the road and tossed the phones. They returned to the cottage with the keys to lock Meredith's bedroom and to stage the scene. They would have stayed hyper alert, like with cocaine, until 6 AM.

Sollecito turned on the computer stereo at 6 AM when they arrived, they slept for four hours and then they started working on getting their story straight ... no more Gubbio. Knox returns to the cottage to clean up, telling Meredith's friend Frost that she did not shower that morning.

When does Kokomaini claim that he saw the olive jars? Was it before or after 9 PM? It would make sense if it was around 9:30-ish. Is "people pretending to be olive jars on the road" something that was said by Kokomaini, the Albanian that recently died? He was a heroine addict, but he knew the coke heads?
[/quote]


I'd have to do some more timeline research to flesh out a theoretical timeline as well detailed as yours.
Definitely agree with most of your timeline! Will we ever know what happened after Meredith left the cottage afternoon of the Nov. 1st? The opportunity to take the rent money was wide open -- no one else there to see them take it -- AK must have known Meredith didn't take her money to Robin's, so she must have left it somewhere in her room. We know AK did not have her rent money available yet for Nov.; she claimed Patrick had not paid her yet.

Wasn't Meredith's mobile phone call to the bank shortly after 10PM? That call wasn't completed, some have surmised if was a mistaken press of buttons. I believe it's possible that Meredith had discovered her rent money missing soon after returning home, although knowing how polite she is, she didn't immediately confront AK about a potential theft.

Given Sophie's testimony Meredith arrived at cottage just after 9PM. Despicable AK, RS, and RG likely arrived soon afterwards. At autopsy a partial undigested piece of mushroom was found in Meredith (don't recall what portion of digestive system) but medical examiners believed it was eaten shortly before TOD. So if AK & RS offered Meredith something to eat and she took it, then we may guess that there could have been two hours or more before a confrontation that set off the violence.

My theory is AK was expecting a confrontation of some kind; that why she brought the knife. AK is so narcissistic and controlling she may have been thinking she would could scare Meredith into not revealing the theft to other housemates, but AK's hatred and drug-fuelled rage took over during their argument. RS made the first neck puncture wound -- which was severe enough for even a drug-addled brain to comprehend 'we have gone too far now.' When Meredith screamed that last, long, loud scream -- AK silenced her forever!
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:38 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Aranavachi wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
Hi, aranavachi. Welcome to the board, I hope. I kinda get from your post that you signed up on another board and posted something under false pretenses and got nailed, yes? Frankly, I think I would have kicked your ass to the curb too, because that was dishonest.

Anyway, welcome, I think.



Hi Napia,

Thank you for the welcome I guess.

From the first post I was under attack and all I had expressed was some doubt in the guilt of the two. Yes, perhaps I deserved the reaction, in fact I did deserve it - but no one knew it was under false pretenses (not possible from the very first post). The fact that upsets me is that people who genuinely come along and have questions get slammed for being FOA.

Its not my board and it not my community, I was making an observation. They had the right to kick me to the curb, but it doesnt detract from the point I made...

If I am welcome to join the conversation here, it would be nice to discuss this case which I have followed for years. I also understand if I am not.

In any case I should say I appreciate reading here, there and elsewhere to keep up to date with the case and therefore I very much appreciate the efforts of everyone to these sites. Especially the translators. Many thanks!



Welcome Aravanache.

It must be understood that PMF (either of them) doesn't really have a problem with people who are not fully convinced enough to have adopted a position. What we DO have a problem with, is with those who join the board using sock accounts claiming to be in this category when they are absolutely not, when in fact they are card carrying FOAKers whose sole purpose for existing on the web is to infiltrate sites such as ours, so that they can funnel their various and numerous talking points into the debate under the guise of being impartial debaters. Their ultimate aim, is to hijack and undermine the debate here. It is a tactic built on bad faith and deceit and is sadly, the STANDARD method by which FOAKer trolls attempt to infiltrate our board and the number of times it has happened over the years are too numerous to count.

So, when you arrive here, or on Org, with claims of being "undecided", everyone's troll radar goes off and they go into full alert. Sadly, those who are guenuinely relatively new to the case and don't yet have a position can find themselves in the crosshairs.

My advice to all those people, is to first research the case (all the tools are provided here) until you feel versed and confident enough to reach a firm position and until that time, limit posts to requests for links to specific primary and secondary case data which you may have been unable to find on your own. There is after all, no rush. And by a "firm position", one simply has to reach one beyond reasonable doubt, rather then beyond absolute doubt.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

tamale wrote:
jeffski wrote:
Ergon wrote:
zorba wrote:

Ergon, you could never make a thing about not going to their sites like I do because your thing is to go there ALL THE TIME, reproducing entire posts of what they said and then what you said back to them HERE.


So? It was a general statement not addressed to you personally as you seem to make a habit of doing. I stated why I disagreed with that attitude, zorba, just as I might disagree with hyperbole about how I go there all the time and bring it back here. In my 3660 posts, what's the ratio for what I write about them vs the rest? And, since many of the last 'entire posts of what they said' were actually written by other posters, you just might be mistaken anyway. But yeah, I probably was the first, and I think that exposing them and their PR activities was important. It is especially important right now as political overtures are being made to help Amanda Knox escape an extradition request, and put out a new PR front with the media. And yes, I engage with them, and the media, and anyone to help bring justice for Meredith. Feel free to scroll by, with all due respect.


Agree with Ergon 100%. If no one engaged with the Knoxiets they would go unchallenged with their outrageous lies. They would be free to pollute the media comments sections & social media sites at will.

The recent "twitterstorm" has at last given Meredith & the Kerchers a voice IMO.

I don't post much on either PMF's or TJMK now days but follow closely on all pro truth/justice sites & am active on twitter.

Jeff

The lies must be countered...and I do believe we are seeing some success. Ergon has my vote of confidence 100%




It is important to be able to counter the FOAKer lies and be able to do so in one of the very few environments, such as here, where those counters cannot be drowned out by FOAKer ad hominim attacks, subject changing, sophistry or talking point bombardment.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline Napia5


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Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:23 pm

Posts: 1893

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

I think I've finally figured out what's wrong with the current PR narrative. I believe that it's the reason why people are not reacting favorably to her.

At some point, during any one of the interviews, Knox should have turned to the cameras and said, "I know many of you out there think I'm innocent. and I thank you for your support. The Kerchers believe that I am guilty and I can't do anything about that. What I CAN do is ask that all of you who support my innocence recognize that the Kerchers are as caught in this nightmare as I am. They lost their daughter, and even though you may believe in my innocence, it helps no one if you publicly attack and insult this family. So I ask you, for my sake leave the Kerchers in peace.

I've been waiting for this since I first heard that she was going to do interviews. Guess I shouldn't hold my breath. I'm just expecting that sooner or later, she'll finally say something that an innocent person would say. Even by accident.
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Offline Iodine


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Now that you've said it I would bet it's the next thing they try.
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Offline Aranavachi


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Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:14 pm

Posts: 88

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30   

dgfred wrote:
Slade wrote:
guermantes wrote:
More nonsense from Dr.Drew:

NEW DAY CNN (VIDEO)




Nonsense is right! Dr. Drew Pinsky can't seem to help himself from commenting on a case of which he knows nothing. Anyone who has ever listened to his mostly female panels of nuts, especially a particularly stupid young female with clown red hair, they would realize 'Dr. Drew' is low-brow entertainment at its worst.

Dr. Drew should stick with helping pampered celebrities get sober!


Hey Slade. Every time I see your post I think of Gretchen's man on Housewives show is)

Hey Avaranchi. What exactly was your doubt in guilt related to? Has that changed?

Thanks to Jester! hugz-)


Hi Dgfred,

I have no doubts in regards to their involvement and guilt. For some time it troubled me to consider why the knife was taken to the cottage - other than premeditated (as in many hours, not just last minute) murder. However two reasoning have sat well with me 1- they needed the knife for cooking 2- it was a prank
In regards to 1 - this occurred to me when I saw a picture of the knife draw at RS's. I personally have over 30 knives so in my mind set I had never understood why the police would pick out that knife. After I saw the knives he had, it made perfect sense. So if we knew what knives there were at the cottage, perhaps they needed such a knife for what they were cooking earlier that day and the knife was left behind...this would also explain AK's massive reaction to the knife drawer.

I have to say in advance that I do play devil's advocate with myself - its just very hard to understand why they did such an heinous thing. Nonetheless, the evidence is very clear. Unfortunately in this world people do things that logic cannot explain.

RIP Meredith
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Offline Aranavachi


User avatar


Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:14 pm

Posts: 88

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

jaybee51 wrote:
:D Hi Aranavachi.

Found your postings - and it made fascinating reading!
So nothing's changed since then.

th-) The nice posters are still open-minded and friendly.
ss) And the aggressive posters are still ego-driven know-it-alls .................


Hi Jaybee51

Thank you for your warm welcome (any everyone else). I have to admit I avoided checking the board till this afternoon and pondered what had compelled me to write in the first place. But I am pleasantly surprised.

Cheers
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Offline Napia5


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Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:23 pm

Posts: 1893

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Iodine wrote:
Now that you've said it I would bet it's the next thing they try.



I love your avatar!

You know what? I waffled for quite a few days before posting this. For the exact reason that you mentioned. But, then I thought, what would be bad if she DID come out and say this because of someone posting it?

If it would cause even one person to shut up and leave the Kercher family alone, it might be worth it.
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Offline Aranavachi


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Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:14 pm

Posts: 88

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Michael wrote:
Aranavachi wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
Hi, aranavachi. Welcome to the board, I hope. I kinda get from your post that you signed up on another board and posted something under false pretenses and got nailed, yes? Frankly, I think I would have kicked your ass to the curb too, because that was dishonest.

Anyway, welcome, I think.



Hi Napia,

Thank you for the welcome I guess.

From the first post I was under attack and all I had expressed was some doubt in the guilt of the two. Yes, perhaps I deserved the reaction, in fact I did deserve it - but no one knew it was under false pretenses (not possible from the very first post). The fact that upsets me is that people who genuinely come along and have questions get slammed for being FOA.

Its not my board and it not my community, I was making an observation. They had the right to kick me to the curb, but it doesnt detract from the point I made...

If I am welcome to join the conversation here, it would be nice to discuss this case which I have followed for years. I also understand if I am not.

In any case I should say I appreciate reading here, there and elsewhere to keep up to date with the case and therefore I very much appreciate the efforts of everyone to these sites. Especially the translators. Many thanks!



Welcome Aravanache.

It must be understood that PMF (either of them) doesn't really have a problem with people who are not fully convinced enough to have adopted a position. What we DO have a problem with, is with those who join the board using sock accounts claiming to be in this category when they are absolutely not, when in fact they are card carrying FOAKers whose sole purpose for existing on the web is to infiltrate sites such as ours, so that they can funnel their various and numerous talking points into the debate under the guise of being impartial debaters. Their ultimate aim, is to hijack and undermine the debate here. It is a tactic built on bad faith and deceit and is sadly, the STANDARD method by which FOAKer trolls attempt to infiltrate our board and the number of times it has happened over the years are too numerous to count.

So, when you arrive here, or on Org, with claims of being "undecided", everyone's troll radar goes off and they go into full alert. Sadly, those who are guenuinely relatively new to the case and don't yet have a position can find themselves in the crosshairs.

My advice to all those people, is to first research the case (all the tools are provided here) until you feel versed and confident enough to reach a firm position and until that time, limit posts to requests for links to specific primary and secondary case data which you may have been unable to find on your own. There is after all, no rush. And by a "firm position", one simply has to reach one beyond reasonable doubt, rather then beyond absolute doubt.


Hi Micheal

Thank you for your note. I do see where you are coming from - it may detract from the board. Perhaps I am an idealist, I just think until proven to be a troll anyone should have a chance.

Anyway, I very much appreciate the approach here - not every single syllable of my sentence has been shredded to pieces and pulled out of context and although I have not proven myself, I can start with the assumption that I am not here to troll. I look forward in taking part in the discussions.

Thanks for putting together a great board.

Cheers
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Offline Aranavachi


User avatar


Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:14 pm

Posts: 88

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:43 pm   Post subject: Re: At PMF.org -- paranoia is thick!   

Slade wrote:
Aranavachi wrote:
Slade wrote:
Iodine wrote:

The few time I posted at .org I got the prerequisite slamming from a couple of regular posters -- the paranoia there is a bit thick. Should anyone wish to PM me and ask me to show evidence of my almost six-year devotion to justice for Meredith Kercher and her family, I can provide such evidence.


Hi Slade,

It has been over 2 years since I last posted a comment on this case, however after reading your comment regarding .org I felt I should sign up her and write in complete agreement. Though I should say that when I did post on .org a couple of years ago -though I had been posting on other sites for a good couple of years and was and am completely convinced of the guilt of AK and RS. My experiment was to see how people would respond. I was attacked big time! For no reason, other than expressing doubt on guilt. I wrote that I wanted to find out more about the case... This was in part a selfish motive to observe the reaction of the board to an outsider, I had noticed sometime that people get totally slammed for very innocent questions - the whole board will start reading into who they are and who is paying them - "paranoia is thick" as you put it. I was attacked big time! For no reason, other than expressing doubt on guilt. I was labelled with all the relevant FOA names etc. At that point I stopped posting everywhere - the people who believe AK is guilty are often I have found no better than those who believe she is innocent. This to me is very sad.


You got similar treatment from .org that I got, but the difference is -- I never expressed the slightest doubt of my belief in their absolute guilt! That's why I was surprised by the reaction of some -- not all, of course. Skeptical Bystander, Admin, will often stop some of the overzealous, mean-spirited attacks by pointing out the person posting comments never expressed an opinion they believed either of the two may be innocent.

Other than when first hearing the initial news reports about AK's arrest, my first thought was, surely not; this is probably a mistake by police wanting to solve the murder quickly and calm students. THEN, I read AK's 'gift' to police --released by a British online news org less than two weeks after AK's arrest, and I was convinced she was involved. Then I started looking for news outside of the US to get a more well-rounded view of what may have happened. US media completely failed on their coverage of the case.

I wasn't 'experimenting' as you put it -- I was grateful for the people who were doing translations of Italian court documents and news article, giving overviews of what the general opinions were, and evidence tidbits to support my own arguments for guilt. Why not use the research others have found and formulated -- that's why I continued reading there. But if you express an opinion, even stating that your opinion is a theory, a couple of frequent, long-time posters will get their panties in a wad demanding direct evidence of your theory, simply b/c you're a new poster. Guess I felt as if 'what do I have to do send you an oath in blood!'


I understand, its just that your post jumped at me because of my own experience (although there was a big factual difference as you point out). I do continue to read there as well and I appreciate the work done, I just dont participate and often times feel that reactions are pretty harsh. At the end of the day when we write, text etc (unless we go through rigorous prof reading and editing) sometimes things can be misinterpreted.

That said, I am very grateful to your post which has brought me back to posting and I look forward to discussing the case. its nice to bounce ideas of others who are interested in this case :)
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Offline Aranavachi


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Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:14 pm

Posts: 88

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ergon wrote:
And welcome to DotNet, Aranavachi. Sorry for your rough experience, er, elsewhere :) Yes, I noticed your welcome, and never mind. You weren't the only one ;) If you have any questions, I'm sure we can accommodate. Having met many like you outside of this hermetically sealed environment :) I don't think you are a dyed in the wool FOA, and take your word you believe in guilt. No crime in posting under other names elsewhere, I don't care about that. This case intrigues many, and I never tire of asking people, what drew you to this case?

ETA: I missed your full reply to Slade, it's been a long day. Good night, all.


Hi Ergon,

Thank you for your kind welcome. I have been reading your posts for years and feel as though I know you! Its good to be here and I look forward to discussing things with you, I often appreciated your view points which led me to see things that I had not noticed etc

And of course a BIG THANKS for the pictures of the knife! That was really an eye opener. Its one thing reading that there were scratches on the knife and another to see it!

Cheers,
Giselle
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Offline Aranavachi


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Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:14 pm

Posts: 88

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Napia5 wrote:
Aranavachi wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
Hi, aranavachi. Welcome to the board, I hope. I kinda get from your post that you signed up on another board and posted something under false pretenses and got nailed, yes? Frankly, I think I would have kicked your ass to the curb too, because that was dishonest.

Anyway, welcome, I think.



Hi Napia,

Thank you for the welcome I guess.


Good morning! I'd post some sort of "truce" smiley here, but, finding one and figuring out how to import it here would take me the better part of a day, you know how it is.


many thanks :)
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Offline Aranavachi


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Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:14 pm

Posts: 88

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Napia5 wrote:
I think I've finally figured out what's wrong with the current PR narrative. I believe that it's the reason why people are not reacting favorably to her.

At some point, during any one of the interviews, Knox should have turned to the cameras and said, "I know many of you out there think I'm innocent. and I thank you for your support. The Kerchers believe that I am guilty and I can't do anything about that. What I CAN do is ask that all of you who support my innocence recognize that the Kerchers are as caught in this nightmare as I am. They lost their daughter, and even though you may believe in my innocence, it helps no one if you publicly attack and insult this family. So I ask you, for my sake leave the Kerchers in peace.

I've been waiting for this since I first heard that she was going to do interviews. Guess I shouldn't hold my breath. I'm just expecting that sooner or later, she'll finally say something that an innocent person would say. Even by accident.


I notice in fact that I have never even seen AK acknowledge her groupie supporters...in terms of online people who run around advocating her innocence. I have heard her acknowledge there are people who think she is guilty and the 'mean' things they say about her - however no mention of the other side at all...so if she comes out and says this it would be the first time she associates herself with the crazies on the net and what they say. Perhaps the PR stance is to keep her distance from these people and their comments...

Well this is the problem when one has to act as though they are innocent and think what an innocent person would and would not do. The whole PR take is unnatural. Its forced. Even if they do say this, it wont come across well because it will be fake.
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Offline tamale


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:13 pm

Posts: 615

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Napia5 wrote:
I saw Dr. Drew's show, "Celebrity Rehab". It was to me an odd premise, because it was difficult to understand how a patient would develop a trusting and confidential relationship with a therapist with the knowledge that millions (hopefully) of people were watching. But, nobody was actually forced to participate, from what I understand.

Sorry...most of it is scripted. pp-(
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Offline tamale


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:13 pm

Posts: 615

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Pelerine wrote:
max wrote:
Oggi in Santa Domingo. RS: "My future is in the Dominican Republic or somewhere else around the world, certainly not in Italy."
http://www.oggi.it/focus/cronaca/2013/1 ... esclusiva/



Good luck then! Once the trial is over and the dust has settled, he will find himself been thrown back into anonymity. And with the limelight fading away and his income steadyly diminishing, "friends" will be disappearing very quickly.
Lots of spare time with nothing reasonable to fill and neverending lonely nights with Merediths shadow increasing.
ff)


I wonder if he's scared of the dark?
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Napia5 wrote:
I think I've finally figured out what's wrong with the current PR narrative. I believe that it's the reason why people are not reacting favorably to her.

At some point, during any one of the interviews, Knox should have turned to the cameras and said, "I know many of you out there think I'm innocent. and I thank you for your support. The Kerchers believe that I am guilty and I can't do anything about that. What I CAN do is ask that all of you who support my innocence recognize that the Kerchers are as caught in this nightmare as I am. They lost their daughter, and even though you may believe in my innocence, it helps no one if you publicly attack and insult this family. So I ask you, for my sake leave the Kerchers in peace.

I've been waiting for this since I first heard that she was going to do interviews. Guess I shouldn't hold my breath. I'm just expecting that sooner or later, she'll finally say something that an innocent person would say. Even by accident.



Of course you'll never hear that from Amanda. Her own family is responsible and has been from the get-go, for orchestrating the attacks on the Kerchers and she is fully supportive of it, since it's impossible she's unaware of it. Only on rare occasions have the Kercher family spoken publicly about their loss or about the case and one of the primary purposes of their bullying campaign is to keep it that way. That is because they do not want the public to be reminded of the victims, their suffering or how terrible the crime was and instead for the focus to be solely on Amanda Knox and her family and the lie of how "they" are the victims. It is callous, ruthless and utterly selfish, but that has been their strategy from the very beginning. It's fully supported and perpetuated by the entourage in thought deed, for they too want to see the victims marginalised and maligned as otherwise, they are forced to face what they have been supporting and the harm they have also done to innocent victims. Amanda Knox could put a stop to it in an instant with a word, but she never will. As much as Meredith may be dead, Knox fears and hates her as much as she has ever done, for she has come to realise that "dead" does not mean forgotten or disappeared. And so, the attacks on the victims continue, all in Amanda Knox's name...and she is perfectly happy with that!

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Slade


Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:39 pm

Posts: 79

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:15 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Napia5 wrote:
I think I've finally figured out what's wrong with the current PR narrative. I believe that it's the reason why people are not reacting favorably to her.

At some point, during any one of the interviews, Knox should have turned to the cameras and said, "I know many of you out there think I'm innocent. and I thank you for your support. The Kerchers believe that I am guilty and I can't do anything about that. What I CAN do is ask that all of you who support my innocence recognize that the Kerchers are as caught in this nightmare as I am. They lost their daughter, and even though you may believe in my innocence, it helps no one if you publicly attack and insult this family. So I ask you, for my sake leave the Kerchers in peace.

I've been waiting for this since I first heard that she was going to do interviews. Guess I shouldn't hold my breath. I'm just expecting that sooner or later, she'll finally say something that an innocent person would say. Even by accident.


AK is a narcissist -- text book! I'm surprised her mother, Edda, who does appear to be genuine, didn't tell her daughter -- real people who are sad and upset by their housemate's brutal murder, show it! Except Edda would have to explain in great detail, including making facial expressions for AK to emulate. AK isn't capable of feeling, nor showing, sympathy and empathy, she has to mirror what she sees others do.

That's why AK never did as you suggested and give a heartfelt little speech to her supporters asking them to please understand how horrible this situation is for the lovely Kerchers, so stop any criticism of them --it's unacceptable behavior on their parts. To AK, watching and hearing her supporters attacking the Kerchers for not believing in her innocence was well deserved. AK is truly a despicable thing! (Can't bring myself to type the word 'human'.)
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Aranavachi wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
I think I've finally figured out what's wrong with the current PR narrative. I believe that it's the reason why people are not reacting favorably to her.

At some point, during any one of the interviews, Knox should have turned to the cameras and said, "I know many of you out there think I'm innocent. and I thank you for your support. The Kerchers believe that I am guilty and I can't do anything about that. What I CAN do is ask that all of you who support my innocence recognize that the Kerchers are as caught in this nightmare as I am. They lost their daughter, and even though you may believe in my innocence, it helps no one if you publicly attack and insult this family. So I ask you, for my sake leave the Kerchers in peace.

I've been waiting for this since I first heard that she was going to do interviews. Guess I shouldn't hold my breath. I'm just expecting that sooner or later, she'll finally say something that an innocent person would say. Even by accident.


I notice in fact that I have never even seen AK acknowledge her groupie supporters...in terms of online people who run around advocating her innocence. I have heard her acknowledge there are people who think she is guilty and the 'mean' things they say about her - however no mention of the other side at all...so if she comes out and says this it would be the first time she associates herself with the crazies on the net and what they say. Perhaps the PR stance is to keep her distance from these people and their comments...

Well this is the problem when one has to act as though they are innocent and think what an innocent person would and would not do. The whole PR take is unnatural. Its forced. Even if they do say this, it wont come across well because it will be fake.



They think that by publicly distancing herself from them, they can disassociate her from the campaign's actions. "Plausible deniability", that's what it's all about. Otherwise, the campaign, or at least the fundamental nature of it, would have to stop and they desperately don't want to stop it. Remember, it is in essence at its core, a smear and slander campaign. That is why they were so upset when we published the Vashon Island photos. They put Amanda Knox, in person, with the likes of Bruce Fischer, Karen for Hair, Candace Dempsey, Frank Sforza et al.

It was like years ago back at the fundraiser at Salty's in Seattle. PMF had multiple people there in the public area and witnessed Candace Dempsey arrive as a guest. When this was published, Dempsey lied and issued a denial (along with a straw man) that she was there.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Am pleased to see nobody picked up on a certain British model apparently going to take part as an actress in a film that they keep saying is about Knox but then go on to explain is not about Knox because it apparently is going to be about those affected by such a case, so what is meant here, affected by the murder, of Meredith of course, or those like Knox's family affected by it?

I don't like it at all, whatever it is supposed to be about, because with all of the things that go on in this world, why does some film producer need to use this to make a film?

If it is about Knox but not about Knox, what is the sense in this? If it is in fact not about her, why not just write a story without using her name.

And then, the people starring in such a thing, where are they as human beings, what do they think about associating with persons who are still involved in the case, the ongoing and as yet not yet fully determined case, what kind of morals do they or do they not have, or live by, or believe in or not believe in, supposedly not believe in, in many cases, since it is just their job.

All as I can say, again, is I do not like it, do not like the idea, do not agree with people making films about this, especially since there is no real perspective to be had as yet, as it is ongoing, and why the haste, is it a calling as a human being to do something, but if so, how, if you do not think you have as a producer/writer any responsibility at the human level, and this means as regards the messages you are sending out, by engaging at this level, where you are cashing in, cashing in by commercialising what is always a most awful set of events, Meredith's loss of life, the total devastation of the lives of her family, yet you, you think it's just fine to use the story in some way to make your film.
Hayden P apologised, and regretted having taken part in the film, I do hope she did after she read the awful things I said about her, but I doubt it, I immediately started liking her again as person hearing that she'd said those things, so I wonder what it was that made her rethink what she'd let herself get involved with.

So this model, she isn't to play Knox, and just think about the consequences such a thing has for Knox, where she really sits there enjoying seeing pretty women who never murdered anyone, who are already famous, playing her like Hayden P did, this in the dreamworld in which Knox lives where she thinks she is famous rather than infamous, where she thinks she is a star, where she thinks she is a writer, where she imagines she is so beautiful when I as a male cannot find her attractive not when I see behind her eyes and listen to her words in the context of this case, murder case.
The Colin Firth, a big, famous actor, what is he, as a man with family, doing, involving himself in such a sad case, at this level, by being in a film which is about Knox which is not about Knox, so exactly what is it really all about then? is it? isn't it? I really do no get these people, and I do not think they get it either, nor will they until one of their daughters has her throat sliced open, is raped and dumped over some cliff, and then the family are taunted and tortured by the wickedness of persons, individuals who will do anything at all for money and call themselves experts, yes, the PR firm, so let's imagine some dumb model, starring in this film, not a real actress, a known cocaine user, experiencing having her sister raped and murdered, and the same goes for Firth, then imagine how they'd like it, to have people out making films and writing dumb books that are inconclusive by the very nature of the tense the proceedings are in, which is not past, not final, ongoing, and let's imagine their grief when those on trial for their loved ones' murders are on TV all the time, being presented and presenting themselves as if they themselves ARE celebrities, the kind of celebreties Firth is, the model is.

These actions, making films only add to the hype, the mayhem, the misunderstanding, and this is purely cashing in on Meredith's murder.

People like this, I do try to write to, only it's almost impossible to reach them, but perhaps we here do have an influence ion those who get involved with something, in this then, like a Hayden, who may have looked up stuff to conduct research into her part, and may have come across words from some slagging her off for taking part, in that film at a time when Meredith's blood hadn't yet even had time to dry!!!
This is exactly what I find so detestable.
Take a year after the final decisions o al of this, but the need t bring out Hollywoord films when the court is not even yet done, I cannot accept is as being in any way, sense or form, as nything conducive to good human behaviour, I feel that it is totally disrespectful and parasitical, to be in there making your fil which is, which isn't about Knox, what a totally full of shit concept, it is about Knox, but it's not really about Knox, well just wrirte a thing then anf leave her bloody name out of it.

Does one go to the cinema, buy popcorn then look at this murder on the big screen, glamorised in some shiny Hollywood movie, is murder entertainment?

Obviously murder impacts on people's lives, this notwithstanding: did this case really need to happen, one out of millions, before some director could realise or see this concept?

This is why I am pleased nobody picked up on it, as I am not one to publicise things like that, since everyone can read the things going on in the world, with the click of a mouse, so the name of the model, it doesn't matter, when I read about i today I immediately took my rotten eye out of its jar and directed it at her, just like I did with Hayden, it's the eye of disgust and it scrutinises modern-day superficiality, a mist common contagious disease.

I forgave Heyden, immediately, when I read what he said, and I believe she meant what I said and I prefer liking people to detesting them. It was as if she'd redeemed her soul and I was pleased for her.

_________________
Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
Ignorance of the law is no excuse


Last edited by zorba on Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Slade


Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:39 pm

Posts: 79

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:36 pm   Post subject: Re: At PMF.org -- paranoia is thick!   

Aranavachi wrote:
Slade wrote:
Aranavachi wrote:
Slade wrote:
Iodine wrote:

The few time I posted at .org I got the prerequisite slamming from a couple of regular posters -- the paranoia there is a bit thick. Should anyone wish to PM me and ask me to show evidence of my almost six-year devotion to justice for Meredith Kercher and her family, I can provide such evidence.



It has been over 2 years since I last posted a comment on this case, however after reading your comment regarding .org I felt I should sign up her and write in complete agreement. Though I should say that when I did post on .org a couple of years ago -though I had been posting on other sites for a good couple of years and was and am completely convinced of the guilt of AK and RS. My experiment was to see how people would respond. I was attacked big time! For no reason, other than expressing doubt on guilt. I wrote that I wanted to find out more about the case...



But if you express an opinion, even stating that your opinion is a theory, a couple of frequent, long-time posters will get their panties in a wad demanding direct evidence of your theory, simply b/c you're a new poster. Guess I felt as if 'what do I have to do send you an oath in blood!'



That said, I am very grateful to your post which has brought me back to posting and I look forward to discussing the case. its nice to bounce ideas of others who are interested in this case :)


Agreed, I've followed this case closely for years, until it's final, I guess I'm hooked on it. Plus, I adore seeing Meredith Kercher's face almost every day. Last time I posed a question on .org I got something of an abrupt answer from the Admin, Fly By Night, but he did answer -- which was gracious of him. His answer suggested I was gullible for falling for the lies of FOA. I had seen more than one interview and read numerous stories that AK & RS were many years away from an extradition fight and asked was there any way these two could appeal their case if they're found guilty in Nencini's court.

And I also got an answer from that intellectual giant, McCall -- (I'm in awe of you, man!)
In short, both said 'no way' can't appeal a Court of Cassation decision once they have finalized the conviction of the appeal court. Hope they're right!
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Offline Michael

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Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30   

Aranavachi wrote:
dgfred wrote:
Slade wrote:
guermantes wrote:
More nonsense from Dr.Drew:

NEW DAY CNN (VIDEO)




Nonsense is right! Dr. Drew Pinsky can't seem to help himself from commenting on a case of which he knows nothing. Anyone who has ever listened to his mostly female panels of nuts, especially a particularly stupid young female with clown red hair, they would realize 'Dr. Drew' is low-brow entertainment at its worst.

Dr. Drew should stick with helping pampered celebrities get sober!


Hey Slade. Every time I see your post I think of Gretchen's man on Housewives show is)

Hey Avaranchi. What exactly was your doubt in guilt related to? Has that changed?

Thanks to Jester! hugz-)


Hi Dgfred,

I have no doubts in regards to their involvement and guilt. For some time it troubled me to consider why the knife was taken to the cottage - other than premeditated (as in many hours, not just last minute) murder. However two reasoning have sat well with me 1- they needed the knife for cooking 2- it was a prank
In regards to 1 - this occurred to me when I saw a picture of the knife draw at RS's. I personally have over 30 knives so in my mind set I had never understood why the police would pick out that knife. After I saw the knives he had, it made perfect sense. So if we knew what knives there were at the cottage, perhaps they needed such a knife for what they were cooking earlier that day and the knife was left behind...this would also explain AK's massive reaction to the knife drawer.

I have to say in advance that I do play devil's advocate with myself - its just very hard to understand why they did such an heinous thing. Nonetheless, the evidence is very clear. Unfortunately in this world people do things that logic cannot explain.

RIP Meredith



There is another reason. A murder weapon is a serious problem. It's a huge risk just to toss it, since it can carry all sorts of evidence that can directly link you to your victim. It's better, perhaps, to take it home and clean it within an inch of its life and hide it in a kitchen drawer where nobody would ever find its presence suspicious. And as time passes, it then also becomes of less and less use as forensic evidence as any remaining micro traces deteriorate and become contaminated by its household kitchen environment. And in any case, Sollecito was moving out of that apartment in two weeks and the knife would be in possession of the landlord and new tenants. They of course, would also have had the option of disposing of it somewhere days later when there were less police running around town and the public's mind was no longer so much on the murder, when iy was "safe". Throw the thing away right away and you no longer have options, your fate is in the hands of the Gods, you are no longer in "control". And we know how much Knox and Sollecito needed to be in control. That's why they refrained from going to Gubbio to build an alibi instead. And they felt they'd done enough at the crime scene and in the early days of the investigation for it to never come to anyone paying close attention to any knife in their kitchen. There's also the "trophy" element. We know they got off on what they'd done, one only has to look at their little g-string shopping trip the next day.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline ttrroonniicc


Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:12 pm

Posts: 1073

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

speed after --

1. throwing the 9 pound rock across the 13 foot gap (from the parapet)
2. clambering around and down into the gulley (or jumping over the stick fence)

jumping over would have left extremely heavy indentations below

3. climbing up the wall avoiding the protruding nail - without leaving any heavy long black,
marks on the whitewashed wall (black earth in the gulley - un-disturbed)

trainer or shoe scores

4. up over the ledge without leaving any traces. no mud on the ledge or the floor
5. glass along the ledge where the shutters were closed as the window was broken FROM THE INSIDE

6. that glass in place on the ledge .. glass in the frame - no cuts

7. no impressions in the soft earth - that gulley

8. rock in an impossible position under the window; not further into the room

what about the speed of all that

throwing the rock clambering down up the wall over & through the window (now sprinting?)

a minute plus?

time for Meredith Kercher to have either initiated or made an emergency call, or to have escaped.


Last edited by ttrroonniicc on Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:39 pm, edited 16 times in total.
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Offline zorba


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Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:11 am

Posts: 4233

Location: London

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30   

Michael wrote:
Aranavachi wrote:
dgfred wrote:
Slade wrote:
guermantes wrote:
More nonsense from Dr.Drew:

NEW DAY CNN (VIDEO)




Nonsense is right! Dr. Drew Pinsky can't seem to help himself from commenting on a case of which he knows nothing. Anyone who has ever listened to his mostly female panels of nuts, especially a particularly stupid young female with clown red hair, they would realize 'Dr. Drew' is low-brow entertainment at its worst.

Dr. Drew should stick with helping pampered celebrities get sober!


Hey Slade. Every time I see your post I think of Gretchen's man on Housewives show is)

Hey Avaranchi. What exactly was your doubt in guilt related to? Has that changed?

Thanks to Jester! hugz-)


Hi Dgfred,

I have no doubts in regards to their involvement and guilt. For some time it troubled me to consider why the knife was taken to the cottage - other than premeditated (as in many hours, not just last minute) murder. However two reasoning have sat well with me 1- they needed the knife for cooking 2- it was a prank
In regards to 1 - this occurred to me when I saw a picture of the knife draw at RS's. I personally have over 30 knives so in my mind set I had never understood why the police would pick out that knife. After I saw the knives he had, it made perfect sense. So if we knew what knives there were at the cottage, perhaps they needed such a knife for what they were cooking earlier that day and the knife was left behind...this would also explain AK's massive reaction to the knife drawer.

I have to say in advance that I do play devil's advocate with myself - its just very hard to understand why they did such an heinous thing. Nonetheless, the evidence is very clear. Unfortunately in this world people do things that logic cannot explain.

RIP Meredith



There is another reason. A murder weapon is a serious problem. It's a huge risk just to toss it, since it can carry all sorts of evidence that can directly link you to your victim. It's better, perhaps, to take it home and clean it within an inch of its life and hide it in a kitchen drawer where nobody would ever find its presence suspicious. And as time passes, it then also becomes of less and less use as forensic evidence as any remaining micro traces deteriorate and become contaminated by its household kitchen environment. And in any case, Sollecito was moving out of that apartment in two weeks and the knife would be in possession of the landlord and new tenants. They of course, would also have had the option of disposing of it somewhere days later when there were less police running around town and the public's mind was no longer so much on the murder, when iy was "safe". Throw the thing away right away and you no longer have options, your fate is in the hands of the Gods, you are no longer in "control". And we know how much Knox and Sollecito needed to be in control. That's why they refrained from going to Gubbio to build an alibi instead. And they felt they'd done enough at the crime scene and in the early days of the investigation for it to never come to anyone paying close attention to any knife in their kitchen. There's also the "trophy" element. We know they got off on what they'd done, one only has to look at their little g-string shopping trip the next day.


Yes because if the knife had been found at the trash dump depot or in a trash can, like by and through it having been dumped somewhere around town, and it had then been traced to Knox and Sollecito, it would have been, ah, so why did you dump this knife, nothing to do with your housemate having been murdered yesterday is it???

That's why they kept it.

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Offline jaybee51


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30   

zorba wrote:

Yes because if the knife had been found at the trash dump depot or in a trash can, like by and through it having been dumped somewhere around town, and it had then been traced to Knox and Sollecito, it would have been, ah, so why did you dump this knife, nothing to do with your housemate having been murdered yesterday is it???

That's why they kept it.


So do you think they kept the second knife, too ?
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Offline ttrroonniicc


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30   

jaybee51 wrote:
zorba wrote:

Yes because if the knife had been found at the trash dump depot or in a trash can, like by and through it having been dumped somewhere around town, and it had then been traced to Knox and Sollecito, it would have been, ah, so why did you dump this knife, nothing to do with your housemate having been murdered yesterday is it???

That's why they kept it.


So do you think they kept the second knife, too ?

He was fond of it. Expensive. He carried one into the Questura. Could have been that one. Some time later - very clean by then.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30   

jaybee51 wrote:
zorba wrote:

Yes because if the knife had been found at the trash dump depot or in a trash can, like by and through it having been dumped somewhere around town, and it had then been traced to Knox and Sollecito, it would have been, ah, so why did you dump this knife, nothing to do with your housemate having been murdered yesterday is it???

That's why they kept it.


So do you think they kept the second knife, too ?


The second knife (Raffaele's pocket knife) was more of a problem, since it wasn't so common as a generic kitchen knife and couldn't be hidden in plain sight, in some kitchen draw for example.

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Offline ttrroonniicc


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30   

Michael wrote:
jaybee51 wrote:
zorba wrote:

Yes because if the knife had been found at the trash dump depot or in a trash can, like by and through it having been dumped somewhere around town, and it had then been traced to Knox and Sollecito, it would have been, ah, so why did you dump this knife, nothing to do with your housemate having been murdered yesterday is it???

That's why they kept it.


So do you think they kept the second knife, too ?


The second knife (Raffaele's pocket knife) was more of a problem, since it wasn't so common as a generic kitchen knife and couldn't be hidden in plain sight, in some kitchen draw for example.


Brian Tighe design knife

Raffaele's Brian Tighe design knife

This knife, stamped with the words "Brian Tighe Design", was made by the Columbia River Knife & Tool company (one of their 811x series knifes bearing Brian Tighe’s name). CRKT are a dedicated knife company who specialize in working with the world’s leading knife designers and producing the knives for a bigger market but still as proper aficionado pieces.

Spyderco knife

Raffaele's Spyderco knife

This is a knife made by Spyderco – a large premium knife manufacturer of tactical and many other types of knives. This particular model is a Delica4 Emerson Opener retailing for about $109.95rrp. Of particular note about this knife is the hole and the top edge.

Ref: http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Sollecito%27s_Knives
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30   

jaybee51 wrote:
zorba wrote:

Yes because if the knife had been found at the trash dump depot or in a trash can, like by and through it having been dumped somewhere around town, and it had then been traced to Knox and Sollecito, it would have been, ah, so why did you dump this knife, nothing to do with your housemate having been murdered yesterday is it???

That's why they kept it.


So do you think they kept the second knife, too ?


I'm not sure, not sure there was one, because the wounds were on the surface, but if ther was a knife and the experts showed this, an it was smaller, it may have been possible to destroy it, break it, make it small, transport it, bury it, whatever, I'm not sure about this Jaybee, one thing is true; not every knife was tested, in fact, maybe they should have been.

They did get rid of Meredith's keys, obviously easier to slip inot a pocket or even walk around with and even upon being searched for wsome reason, for some whatever kinda reason, loose of the discovery of Meredith, so before, there would be no reason to suspect anything about a bunch of keys, a couple of keys would be easier to transport and bury at different spots, individually, never more to be found.

A small knife is usually pretty easy to break, I also know about knives and also have about 30, special knives, for different things, very fine cutting, the small ones I could easily break, and then it would be easy to bury those too, without having to dig a real hole, a big knife would be harder, need a bigger hole, one that might be seen. One thing is sure, they had enough objects to get rid of, the phones, the keys and possibly the smaller knife, so they quickly decided it would be okay to keep the big knife if they scrubbed it.
If there was a smaller knife I doubt they just tossed it into the green wilderness like they did, or intended to, perhaps, with the phones, a key you could drop down an outdoor drain, or throw it or stick it into the ground without needing to bury it, there'd be little chance of it being found, yet, depending on what they did with these things there is always a possibility they will be found, if Sollecito hid them he nmay have collected them, recently and then taken them right away, but if he did I think he would hve been very scared abiout being followed and caught doing that, foe all he knew he might get stopped and searched in Perugia when he returned there, yet, he may still have done it.

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Last edited by zorba on Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30   

ttrroonniicc wrote:
Michael wrote:
jaybee51 wrote:
zorba wrote:

Yes because if the knife had been found at the trash dump depot or in a trash can, like by and through it having been dumped somewhere around town, and it had then been traced to Knox and Sollecito, it would have been, ah, so why did you dump this knife, nothing to do with your housemate having been murdered yesterday is it???

That's why they kept it.


So do you think they kept the second knife, too ?


The second knife (Raffaele's pocket knife) was more of a problem, since it wasn't so common as a generic kitchen knife and couldn't be hidden in plain sight, in some kitchen draw for example.


Brian Tighe design knife

Raffaele's Brian Tighe design knife

This knife, stamped with the words "Brian Tighe Design", was made by the Columbia River Knife & Tool company (one of their 811x series knifes bearing Brian Tighe’s name). CRKT are a dedicated knife company who specialize in working with the world’s leading knife designers and producing the knives for a bigger market but still as proper aficionado pieces.

Spyderco knife

Raffaele's Spyderco knife

This is a knife made by Spyderco – a large premium knife manufacturer of tactical and many other types of knives. This particular model is a Delica4 Emerson Opener retailing for about $109.95rrp. Of particular note about this knife is the hole and the top edge.

Ref: http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Sollecito%27s_Knives


A knife like the above, however, wouldn't be so easy to break, or just stick in the ground, the shape isn't good for that.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:15 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

You know how you wake up from terrible nightmare and are so glad it was not real, like you might have a nightmare in which YOU did something awful and the relief when you find out upon waking that it wasn't real, is enormous, but imagine if you'd actually stabbed someone to death, I cannot grasp how anyone could not wake up feeling awful. How can anyone do such things but not feel terrible? I ask as though it's impossible but many seem to do these things yet feel nothing

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Offline ttrroonniicc


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:29 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

zorba wrote:
You know how you wake up from terrible nightmare and are so glad it was not real, like you might have a nightmare in which YOU did something awful and the relief when you find out upon waking that it wasn't real, is enormous, but imagine if you'd actually stabbed someone to death, I cannot grasp how anyone could not wake up feeling awful. How can anyone do such things but not feel terrible? I ask as though it's impossible but many seem to do these things yet feel nothing

Knox and Sollecito waking up, realising it's real

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:38 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

ttrroonniicc wrote:
zorba wrote:
You know how you wake up from terrible nightmare and are so glad it was not real, like you might have a nightmare in which YOU did something awful and the relief when you find out upon waking that it wasn't real, is enormous, but imagine if you'd actually stabbed someone to death, I cannot grasp how anyone could not wake up feeling awful. How can anyone do such things but not feel terrible? I ask as though it's impossible but many seem to do these things yet feel nothing

Knox and Sollecito waking up, realising it's real




Troon those particular shots, especially Sollecito's face, I mean he looked like a wicked bastard, I always couldn't help seeing that, he looks like some Nazi shite, that face is so creepy, there's nothing nice at all about it, there's no emotion, no sense of human-like nature, cold as ice likr as cold as death, it's strained and nasty, and Knox, well maybe it's time I wrote a book, her face, of course you cannot try someone on pictures and looks but you can see enough in context and connection to what was going on there, that one of her stood explaining it all to the group of police, the one policeman holding his head like he was really in shock, like the horror, and he was aciop, but these two, nothing, just sneaky looks. Weird how in various shots Sollecito has that complete batard strained, grey, unhealthy look about him, the grated jaw. Who goes explaining, nope, those who care and react are spilt into bits by the news.

Looking at him back then always makes me have visions of him shoving knives, his face makes me imagine that is how he looked shoving his knife, cruel.

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Offline Aranavachi


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:58 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30   

Michael wrote:
There is another reason. A murder weapon is a serious problem. It's a huge risk just to toss it, since it can carry all sorts of evidence that can directly link you to your victim. It's better, perhaps, to take it home and clean it within an inch of its life and hide it in a kitchen drawer where nobody would ever find its presence suspicious. And as time passes, it then also becomes of less and less use as forensic evidence as any remaining micro traces deteriorate and become contaminated by its household kitchen environment. And in any case, Sollecito was moving out of that apartment in two weeks and the knife would be in possession of the landlord and new tenants. They of course, would also have had the option of disposing of it somewhere days later when there were less police running around town and the public's mind was no longer so much on the murder, when iy was "safe". Throw the thing away right away and you no longer have options, your fate is in the hands of the Gods, you are no longer in "control". And we know how much Knox and Sollecito needed to be in control. That's why they refrained from going to Gubbio to build an alibi instead. And they felt they'd done enough at the crime scene and in the early days of the investigation for it to never come to anyone paying close attention to any knife in their kitchen. There's also the "trophy" element. We know they got off on what they'd done, one only has to look at their little g-string shopping trip the next day.


Michael, I believe I havent communicated what I meant clearly. I absolutely agree with why they took the knife with them after the murder. My problem was more about why they took the knife to the cottage. Therefore I was thinking perhaps they didnt have a wide range of knives at the cottage and initially they took it over to use for some cooking...its just very hard to bring myself to a reality where these two left RS apartment with two knives and the intent to kill poor Meredith. I cant get my head around it.

Though I must say that last years halloween stabbing in Rome (an American guy who stabbed his room mate for no reason) was an eye opener to just how crazy drugs can make a person. All logic flies out the window.


picture of a pumpkin
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:16 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Aranavachi wrote:

I notice in fact that I have never even seen AK acknowledge her groupie supporters...in terms of online people who run around advocating her innocence. I have heard her acknowledge there are people who think she is guilty and the 'mean' things they say about her - however no mention of the other side at all...so if she comes out and says this it would be the first time she associates herself with the crazies on the net and what they say. Perhaps the PR stance is to keep her distance from these people and their comments...

Well this is the problem when one has to act as though they are innocent and think what an innocent person would and would not do. The whole PR take is unnatural. Its forced. Even if they do say this, it wont come across well because it will be fake.


Hi, Aranavachi, a decision was made quite early on to
a) separate herself from the groupie supporters so she could not be blamed for their actions.
b) create multiple sock identities to create an image of widespread public support, spam social media and corrupt the Wikipedia entry on Meredith Kercher.
c) pay corrupt reporters like "Frank Sfarzo" to write misleading articles about PM Mignini and the case itself.

How do we know this? They blabbed about this behind their "members only" forum and no one knew about it till people went over and started retrieving that info.

And when Knox and Sollecito got their book contracts, then within the year she did get together with her supporters to thank them for their efforts at a by invitation only event on Vashon Island. And also, to discuss the PR plan to promote the books. So how do we know that? Someone sent photographs of the event, other people who were there spoke to me, and other decent people, who felt they had been mistreated by the likes of Frank and Bruce, began leaking information.

And now the information is out, she can't well say there are people who 'hate' her. Her group were the people who spread that PR lie, and the information is now all over the internet, too late for the Genie to be put back into the bottle. Aside from that, always glad to discuss the case with any one.
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Offline Aranavachi


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:19 am   Post subject: Re: At PMF.org -- paranoia is thick!   

Slade wrote:

Agreed, I've followed this case closely for years, until it's final, I guess I'm hooked on it. Plus, I adore seeing Meredith Kercher's face almost every day. Last time I posed a question on .org I got something of an abrupt answer from the Admin, Fly By Night, but he did answer -- which was gracious of him. His answer suggested I was gullible for falling for the lies of FOA. I had seen more than one interview and read numerous stories that AK & RS were many years away from an extradition fight and asked was there any way these two could appeal their case if they're found guilty in Nencini's court.

And I also got an answer from that intellectual giant, McCall -- (I'm in awe of you, man!)
In short, both said 'no way' can't appeal a Court of Cassation decision once they have finalized the conviction of the appeal court. Hope they're right!
[/quote][/quote][/quote]

I dont want to keep complaining about .org here (it also feels ungrateful because I do read there for information) but the site does seem to have an "ask no questions" type policy. I remember asking questions, I was told to go read all the evidence. Not directing me to a section or even a certain report, just in general all reports and evidence. Well I had already read what I knew about and what I could find and I still had questions... I guess there is a community there and in reality no one new is welcome. Its unfortunate in my opinion, because it defeats the purpose, but it is what it is.

In regards to your question I believe that strictly speaking they are right, however there is always the possibility that Cassation will pass back down to another appeal court (as far as I have understood Italian law). Despite the fact that many FOA lines are complete fantasy, I think there is in fact an element of uncertainty regarding extradition. Before anyone shoots me, I understand there is precedent and double jeopardy doesnt apply. However there is some legal grounds to be battled out at the very least. I just dont think it is as black and white as we would like it to be. Having said that given the fact some have said she will be detained in a US jail while the matter of extradition is decided - I would think they would try to make it as fast as possible for her sake.

One thing I was thinking on this was mental incapacity to stand trial - I vaguely remember that an Indian English guy was accused of killing his new wife in South Africa and avoided extradition for mental reasons. Although he was asked to be extradited to stand trial and not already convicted...Amanda is making massive noise about PTSD and depression and suicidal thoughts. She never said anything of the sort before and her family never said anything and in fact she refused to see psychologists. Now she is suddenly very traumatized...perhaps laying grounds to dispute extradition. Im not sure, its just a thought.

Honestly I would NEVER want to be in jail in the US. I would run to Italy if I was in her shoes. RUN RUN RUN. If she thought her little experience was prison, I would like to see what she thinks of US prisons.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:45 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30   

Michael wrote:
There is another reason. A murder weapon is a serious problem. It's a huge risk just to toss it, since it can carry all sorts of evidence that can directly link you to your victim. It's better, perhaps, to take it home and clean it within an inch of its life and hide it in a kitchen drawer where nobody would ever find its presence suspicious. And as time passes, it then also becomes of less and less use as forensic evidence as any remaining micro traces deteriorate and become contaminated by its household kitchen environment. And in any case, Sollecito was moving out of that apartment in two weeks and the knife would be in possession of the landlord and new tenants. They of course, would also have had the option of disposing of it somewhere days later when there were less police running around town and the public's mind was no longer so much on the murder, when iy was "safe". Throw the thing away right away and you no longer have options, your fate is in the hands of the Gods, you are no longer in "control". And we know how much Knox and Sollecito needed to be in control. That's why they refrained from going to Gubbio to build an alibi instead. And they felt they'd done enough at the crime scene and in the early days of the investigation for it to never come to anyone paying close attention to any knife in their kitchen. There's also the "trophy" element. We know they got off on what they'd done, one only has to look at their little g-string shopping trip the next day.


Aravanachi wrote:
Michael, I believe I havent communicated what I meant clearly. I absolutely agree with why they took the knife with them after the murder. My problem was more about why they took the knife to the cottage. Therefore I was thinking perhaps they didnt have a wide range of knives at the cottage and initially they took it over to use for some cooking...its just very hard to bring myself to a reality where these two left RS apartment with two knives and the intent to kill poor Meredith. I cant get my head around it.

Though I must say that last years halloween stabbing in Rome (an American guy who stabbed his room mate for no reason) was an eye opener to just how crazy drugs can make a person. All logic flies out the window.


Hi again, Aranavachi.
I think the reason she had that emotional reaction to the knife drawer at the cottage may have been due to her coming down from the high of that night when faced with a knife that looked very similar to the murder weapon. At that point in time, in the presence of the investigators, she realized she might get caught and, in my view of her mental illness, such an extreme reaction was not surprising.
As you say, it is not uncommon now for seemingly normal people to commit horrible murders while under the influence of drugs. Her case is a lot more complex though, and it is only by piecing together the elements of her past we can even come up with some sort of a scenario.
- She, like her mother and father, has deep levels of anger. Her volatility was remarked upon in Perugia.
- Those who knew her said she was possibly self-medicating some sort of disorder with drugs and alcohol while in Seattle (Barbie Nadeau, Angel Face)
- She staged a home invasion on one of her flatmates with people in ski masks who gave the impression she would be assaulted or worse.
- She was slighted by Meredith, who to top previous injury, was getting 'her' job' at Patrick's bar.
- I think she took the knife to the cottage that evening, and not previously to 'cook' with (Both flats had sufficient cutlery)

Maybe it was not a conscious decision to commit murder that night. But the simple act of transporting the knife, makes the charge of murder that much more likely to be confirmed by Florence, and I do not see what mitigating factors that might be allowed this time.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:02 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

However, Slade and Aranavachi, .ORG is what it is, and we are what we are, for better and for worse. One thing we're all committed to, them, us, TJMK and TMOMK Wiki, is justice for Meredith Kercher. Perhaps that is what we should focus on now? Whatever differences in style we all have as personal individuals, does not matter in the service of that ideal.

Plus there's a party I'm hoping to be invited to in London some time next year :)
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Offline Pelerine


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:11 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ergon wrote:
However, Slade and Aranavachi, .ORG is what it is, and we are what we are, for better and for worse. One thing we're all committed to, them, us, TJMK and TMOMK Wiki, is justice for Meredith Kercher. Perhaps that is what we should focus on now? Whatever differences in style we all have as personal individuals, does not matter in the service of that ideal.

Plus there's a party I'm hoping to be invited to in London some time next year :)



I agree! As we are all fighting the same battle - Justice for Meredith and peace and closure for her grieving family.
Together we are strong and I do not find it useful to split our forces.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:28 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30   

Ergon wrote:

Aravanachi wrote:
Michael, I believe I havent communicated what I meant clearly. I absolutely agree with why they took the knife with them after the murder. My problem was more about why they took the knife to the cottage. Therefore I was thinking perhaps they didnt have a wide range of knives at the cottage and initially they took it over to use for some cooking...its just very hard to bring myself to a reality where these two left RS apartment with two knives and the intent to kill poor Meredith. I cant get my head around it.

Though I must say that last years halloween stabbing in Rome (an American guy who stabbed his room mate for no reason) was an eye opener to just how crazy drugs can make a person. All logic flies out the window.


Hi again, Aranavachi.
I think the reason she had that emotional reaction to the knife drawer at the cottage may have been due to her coming down from the high of that night when faced with a knife that looked very similar to the murder weapon. At that point in time, in the presence of the investigators, she realized she might get caught and, in my view of her mental illness, such an extreme reaction was not surprising.
As you say, it is not uncommon now for seemingly normal people to commit horrible murders while under the influence of drugs. Her case is a lot more complex though, and it is only by piecing together the elements of her past we can even come up with some sort of a scenario.
- She, like her mother and father, has deep levels of anger. Her volatility was remarked upon in Perugia.
- Those who knew her said she was possibly self-medicating some sort of disorder with drugs and alcohol while in Seattle (Barbie Nadeau, Angel Face)
- She staged a home invasion on one of her flatmates with people in ski masks who gave the impression she would be assaulted or worse.
- She was slighted by Meredith, who to top previous injury, was getting 'her' job' at Patrick's bar.
- I think she took the knife to the cottage that evening, and not previously to 'cook' with (Both flats had sufficient cutlery)

Maybe it was not a conscious decision to commit murder that night. But the simple act of transporting the knife, makes the charge of murder that much more likely to be confirmed by Florence, and I do not see what mitigating factors that might be allowed this time.


Bringing the knife to the cottage for some cooking would not be believeable, since especially Filomena who rented the flat in the first place, has lived there quite a time before Amanda arriving, and sure enough she and her co-habitants did some cooking before, and did it without the need of Raffaeles kitchen knife, which, as we know and have seen, is quite an ordinary knife which can be found in every kitchen drawer.
I cannot imagine any cooking that has the need of an "extra" knife.

Furthermore I believe this emotional reaction at the knife drawer was faked - a red herring - same as the mop stories, bathmat shuffles and showering episode.She may have been affected at the knife drawer, but surely realised beeing observed - therefore doing her hyperventilation show. This "it could have been me"-thing.
Why - I ask you - would the police question Amanda and not Filomena (as the flat-owner) if there is anything missing??
Do not underestimate the skills of AK - she might not be good in writing, spelling, math - but in support of her lies she has good shrewdness, I am sure.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:04 am   Post subject: Re: At PMF.org -- paranoia is thick!   

Aranavachi wrote:
In regards to your question I believe that strictly speaking they are right, however there is always the possibility that Cassation will pass back down to another appeal court (as far as I have understood Italian law).




After this appeal which is not something that actually can be classed as a second appeal but THE appeal as the other was made void, there is the Supreme Court, and the ruling made by the latter, is the final ruling.

It cannot be passed back down, you've misunderstood that.

If this court finds her guilty and the Supreme sees no points of law have been incorrectly applied, ignored, etc, then if that Supreme Court upholds the ruling, there can be no more appealing.


America has signed up to respecting the sovereignty of certain countries, Italy is one of these, this means it is obliged to respect its laws.

If this case had involved separate trials, then the concept of fouble jeapoardy ciould be brought up, because this would mean that if a ruling made on the basis of two separate trials tried the sanme person twice, double jeopardy would apply, but this case has had no such two trials no matter what those who are ignorant of law write in their online papers, this is all one trial, on the basis of a singletrial, ongoing and going through its different processes, America cannot refuse to hand Knox over, because there is no basis for it according to International law, which means in relationship to the treaties America and Italy have with each other, Italy has not tried Knox twice, the press writing tried again all the time does not make the process of appeals in different trials.

To refuse to extradite Knoxon the basis of there were separate trials, would mean America fails ro recognise Italy's sovereignty, and that is not something taken likely, because Italy only has to show that Knox and Sollecito were not tried twice according to the concept of trial finished with, then new trial set up, that was never the case, so then America would be proved wrong.

Had the case been finalised, the appeals process run through, Supreme court declaring the release and not guilty verdict final, only to reopen the case 3 years later, then America could refuse to extradite, and America could also grant Sollecito asylum as could other countries on the basis that Sollecito was being tried twice, but he is not and neither is Knox.

At the moment the Hellmann court released the pair, Hellmann knew this was only part of the ongoing same court trial, he never said she is free to go forever, so countries writing things according to the little bit of law they understand of their own country has absolutely no relevance, and the thing is, Knox's family knew too that the release was never just going to be the end of it, as it was only one part of the whole, and the whole is not complete until all segments have been inserted.
Just because American and British papers and news shows knew and know nothing (and do not care to look properly) of Italian law, announcing overturned as if THAT is IT, has no eaffect, only in the minds of those who like to write uninformed nonsense.

To create the idea of it having been FINAL is something Knox and even Sollecito's families have been glad to do, to stir up mayhem, knowing the facts full well themselves.

So for PR reasons, the thinking/strategy has been:

1) Let's have everyone imagine, hey, they've been released, as in released end of.

2) If Hellmann had said guilty, then it would have been Knox and Sollecito claiming the right to appeal, they would never have been shouting from the rooftops that it is unfair.
They are just trying to misuse the laws to suit their situation by creating impressions hoping that swaying public opinion can override any court proceedings.

3) The strategy has been to create the impression that having the ruling by the first court overturned means it is final.
However, that part of the process was a matter of general practice.
Generating the idea/giving people the impression that it was final leaves them with the opportunity to create further media mayhem, we can say, hey, look at that bad Italy, releasing them retrying them.
Those crazy third world judges are going to try them again, poor things.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:06 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

And if America were to ignore Italy's sovereignty, then Italy could say, okay, come on all of you crooks, you can stay here, we will not extradite you to America, as America ignores and disrespects us.

American Italo mafia types would just love that.

All of this is just NOT the way things work.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:59 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

I would like to mention, that the Supreme court ruling is only on matters of law, if the law has been interpreted correctly.

Since the Hellmann-court did not follow the law, in most disturbing matters, the Supreme court had no other possibility than annulling the appeal - and doing this not even partly, but tutto completto.

So, whatever the Nencini court will decide, as long as he is strictly following the law, the Supreme court has to accept. But they made it clear from the beginning: acquittal on the same reasons as Hellmann did, are impossible.
**
IMHO - perhaps I am not confused with this system, as we have the same in Austria, and I believe, in Germany as well. Other European countries I don't know.

Side note:
There is no obligation at all for an appeal.
If the lawyers/defendants accpept the verdict (= Massei in this case) and prosecution accept as well - case is closed. No appeal, no Supreme court. Just finished and over.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:01 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Had the girls not had a full range of kitchen knives in the cottage drawer (unusual for 4 girls sharing) then AK could have used the unopened pack of knives she had brought across from America and which were under her bed.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:05 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

jape wrote:
Had the girls not had a full range of kitchen knives in the cottage drawer (unusual for 4 girls sharing) then AK could have used the unopened pack of knives she had brought across from America and which were under her bed.


Agreed!
Or Filomena would have gone and bought such 6,99 € knife in the next store. No big matter at all and she could it have taken with her, when leaving.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:29 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Pelerine wrote:
I would like to mention, that the Supreme court ruling is only on matters of law, if the law has been interpreted correctly.

Since the Hellmann-court did not follow the law, in most disturbing matters, the Supreme court had no other possibility than annulling the appeal - and doing this not even partly, but tutto completto.

So, whatever the Nencini court will decide, as long as he is strictly following the law, the Supreme court has to accept. But they made it clear from the beginning: acquittal on the same reasons as Hellmann did, are impossible.
**
IMHO - perhaps I am not confused with this system, as we have the same in Austria, and I believe, in Germany as well. Other European countries I don't know.

Side note:
There is no obligation at all for an appeal.
If the lawyers/defendants accpept the verdict (= Massei in this case) and prosecution accept as well - case is closed. No appeal, no Supreme court. Just finished and over.



Yes, but whatever way it goes, guilty or not, if either side claims a thing, an appeal does not have to be accepted, if the higher court says that the law has been applied properly, at that moment, the high court rules there are no grounds for granting an appeal, the appeal court's ruling shall stand, because though in Italy the appeals process is far easier than IN Britain or America, easier in having grounds for being granted one accepted, it does not mean an appeal MUST be granted.

For the supreme court to rule yes, an appeal is warranted, there have to be grounds, and if they see clearly that there are no grounds either way, then they will issue their final rulings in the allocated time limit and that is then final.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:52 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

jape wrote:
Had the girls not had a full range of kitchen knives in the cottage drawer (unusual for 4 girls sharing) then AK could have used the unopened pack of knives she had brought across from America and which were under her bed.



The only flaw in this idea of definitive imagined scenario as to how the knife got there is, yess it's possible Knox could have done this that or the other, and so could the other housemates, as regards buying a knife, and also about the ideas of rules applying to the way people are and think, like, Knox would have gone and got one for 6 euros, one simply cannot say at all with certainty the way Sollecito went over to the cottage, for all anyone can know, he said I'll pop over and fix a bit ofklunch, he gets ready gets his bag, chucks a box of his favourite mushrooms in, and garlic if he needed it, or whatever, as he could never know without doing an inspection in the house that was not his and which he had not known exactly what is there, and this means, one can suppose everyone has knives, to me I know that is totally untrue, I'm a chef and have been asked to cook, people said no we have knives, I got there and had to cook for 30 people with a three inch potato peeler, one person's idea of a knife is different to another's and even then, many knives are blunt, I can easily imagine Sollecito taking a knife along because he wanted to show off his cooking, just like I used to do and I needed MY stuff I didn't ever want to mess about with knives that were too flimsy, bendable, blunt, cutting off my fingers, so I ALWAYS took my OWN knives, a whole set, all sorts, I also took own pans, mortar and pestle, spices, herbs, the food, stocks, wines, distilled alcohol for sauces. Sometimes I took just one knife. Even when I knew they had some knives, my experience is most people do not have good knives, those cheap knives are not good knives.

So this what is to me, nonsense about knowing exactly what someone would do and apply that as a one side fits all is totally inappropriate and unreaslistic.

Basing premeditated murder on the fact that I took my set of knives along, to cook, for others, and someone gets killed, highly likely by me, but that I must have taken all of my knives with the sp ecific intention, predetermined, to commit murder, just doesn't work for me. It's more usual and reasonable to say he indeed did want to do his cooking and that he was not in fact so twisted (at that time) as to want to plan a murder with Knox, but once it all unfolded (in cottage) his acts in the house were indeed premeditated, only, I cannot see that they would have planned it ahead, they did things as wicked, equally wicked as planning ahead, but only in the house where it unfolded, and where they decided to let Meredith bleed to death on her own, not wanting her to be saved, as they were unwilling to face the face and own up, they wanted to get away with it.

So there is hardly any difference in levels of cruelty an intention only I cannot see that anyone can as though looking in a crystal ball say no, they had knives so no way could he have simply taken his own, I say that he could have and I did, always take my knives everywhere I want to cook, including across the country, everywhere. And as an amateur cook, one not yet having committed murder and into knives also not because he intended to start murdering people, I can easily imagine him saying, I'll take my knife, wrapping it up a bit putting it in the bag with the mushrooms.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:02 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Pelerine wrote:
jape wrote:
Had the girls not had a full range of kitchen knives in the cottage drawer (unusual for 4 girls sharing) then AK could have used the unopened pack of knives she had brought across from America and which were under her bed.


Agreed!
Or Filomena would have gone and bought such 6,99 € knife in the next store. No big matter at all and she could it have taken with her, when leaving.



yes but there is no way anyonr can say yes Sollecito definitely knew Knox had those knives and thought they were alright, so it's no use making definite statements if they cannot be definite, and on the knife, it cannot be definite, just because Sollecito knew Knox a wekk did she show him all of her stuff, sounds to me like they were more interested in getting smashed and having sex and enjoying, as in pleasure but nomne iof that says she definitely must have shown him these knives he definitely must have seen them, liked them, who knows what those knives were like.
Most I see that are cheap are useless mainly because they bend, and professional chef's knives do not, not a batter or coteau d office, etc, an office is a small knife but it in no way bends, andthese are to be kept razor sharp, so much so that you can slice paper.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:12 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Aranavachi wrote:
Michael, I believe I havent communicated what I meant clearly. I absolutely agree with why they took the knife with them after the murder. My problem was more about why they took the knife to the cottage. Therefore I was thinking perhaps they didnt have a wide range of knives at the cottage and initially they took it over to use for some cooking...its just very hard to bring myself to a reality where these two left RS apartment with two knives and the intent to kill poor Meredith. I cant get my head around it.

Though I must say that last years halloween stabbing in Rome (an American guy who stabbed his room mate for no reason) was an eye opener to just how crazy drugs can make a person. All logic flies out the window.



When our Gallery used to work we did have a picture of the cottage kitchen knives. They had quite a range and number. One thing was clear from that photo - Sollecito's knife would have been surplus to requirements for any cooking task. Moreover, as Jape pointed out above, Knox had further knives still under her bed (although, we've never obtained a photo of those). And the final point, is from their testimony, they'd already cooked and eaten that night at some point before 8:40 pm. So, the one thing a knife wasn't needed for, was cooking.

In fact, it's for this reason (and others) that some of us here, myself included, have come to the conclusion that Meredith's murder was premeditated.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:23 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ergon wrote:
I think the reason she had that emotional reaction to the knife drawer at the cottage may have been due to her coming down from the high of that night when faced with a knife that looked very similar to the murder weapon.



No, it wasn't due to any comedown. I'll tell you what it was down to. Knox indeed has mental issues, but they didn't come into existence due to any trauma of her being in prison or put on trial, they were always there...or at least starting to develop nicely since late adolescence. It's not the only time she started freaking out and screaming and hitting herself in the head.

Just before going into the cottage to check out the knives she was joking around and doing "ooplahs" whilst putting her CSI kit on. She was full of pep. That's not someone on a comedown from the night before. And remember also, that was also the afternoon of the infamous underwear shopping incident. She wasn't on any comedown...not from drugs at least.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:28 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

zorba wrote:
Pelerine wrote:
jape wrote:
Had the girls not had a full range of kitchen knives in the cottage drawer (unusual for 4 girls sharing) then AK could have used the unopened pack of knives she had brought across from America and which were under her bed.


Agreed!
Or Filomena would have gone and bought such 6,99 € knife in the next store. No big matter at all and she could it have taken with her, when leaving.



yes but there is no way anyonr can say yes Sollecito definitely knew Knox had those knives and thought they were alright, so it's no use making definite statements if they cannot be definite, and on the knife, it cannot be definite, just because Sollecito knew Knox a wekk did she show him all of her stuff, sounds to me like they were more interested in getting smashed and having sex and enjoying, as in pleasure but nomne iof that says she definitely must have shown him these knives he definitely must have seen them, liked them, who knows what those knives were like.
Most I see that are cheap are useless mainly because they bend, and professional chef's knives do not, not a batter or coteau d office, etc, an office is a small knife but it in no way bends, andthese are to be kept razor sharp, so much so that you can slice paper.



Raffaele had no interest in chefs knives to cook, quality or not. From his own statements he never even used them to cook, including his own kitchen knife in his draw, but when cooking would use his pocket knife to prepare food.

He also would have known what knives the girls had in their kitchen since he'd cooked in it at least once.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Just got this Tweet. Make of it what you will:

Sergio Casagrande ‏@essecia 2m
BREAKING #MeredithKercher The new expert on the knife that would kill Meredith confirms traces of DNA linked to #Amanda Knox

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

IF the above tweet is correct: As we know, the knife itself is not being retested, only sample 36-i that has been already long ago removed from the knife and stored. Therefore, this would imply that sample 36-i is Amanda Knox's DNA. What therefore, if anything, does it tell us that is new? Nothing of import, it tells us only that Knox's DNA on the knife is also on the blade, rather then being limited to the handle and perhaps could also be used to construct an argument that Knox was not only responsible for using the knife, but also for cleaning it.

That is only IF the above Tweet is correct, IF it is correct in its literal meaning (Tweeted by an Italian whose first language isn't English...there are several possible ways of interpreting the word "connected" to Amanda Knox) and IF there isn't a further low copy number profile mixed in with that profile that requires further amplification. And also only IF we can trust Vecchiotti not to have somehow switched the samples.

Unfortunately, the Tweeter in question offers no link or further information.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

If that's true, Michael, and I wonder, how long does it take to run confirmatory tests? They started only at 2:00 PM Italy time, that still would be good news. Meredith's DNA is on the knife, and yes the lawyers will be arguing over LCN DNA, but at the end of the day, the Double DNA knife will be, as always, one plank in an edifice of evidence. Or maybe, the plank the two accused will walk over? :-)
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:15 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

The thing is, since only sample i-36 and not the knife itself is being tested, no matter what traces sample 1-36 reveals or does not. the knife itself cannot be ruled as being absent of Meredith's DNA, only sample 1-36 can. In other words, this test cannot reveal any results that are exculpatory for the defence, only results that are either incriminating or neutral.

As to length of time, it depends on 1) How many profiles, if any, are present in the sample and 2) The strength of those profile/s. The lower the copy number of any profile, the more amplifications it requires, so the longer it takes.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Michael wrote:
zorba wrote:
Pelerine wrote:
jape wrote:
Had the girls not had a full range of kitchen knives in the cottage drawer (unusual for 4 girls sharing) then AK could have used the unopened pack of knives she had brought across from America and which were under her bed.


Agreed!
Or Filomena would have gone and bought such 6,99 € knife in the next store. No big matter at all and she could it have taken with her, when leaving.



yes but there is no way anyonr can say yes Sollecito definitely knew Knox had those knives and thought they were alright, so it's no use making definite statements if they cannot be definite, and on the knife, it cannot be definite, just because Sollecito knew Knox a wekk did she show him all of her stuff, sounds to me like they were more interested in getting smashed and having sex and enjoying, as in pleasure but nomne iof that says she definitely must have shown him these knives he definitely must have seen them, liked them, who knows what those knives were like.
Most I see that are cheap are useless mainly because they bend, and professional chef's knives do not, not a batter or coteau d office, etc, an office is a small knife but it in no way bends, andthese are to be kept razor sharp, so much so that you can slice paper.



Raffaele had no interest in chefs knives to cook, quality or not. From his own statements he never even used them to cook, including his own kitchen knife in his draw, but when cooking would use his pocket knife to prepare food.

He also would have known what knives the girls had in their kitchen since he'd cooked in it at least once.



Where are those statements, that he used his pocket knife to cook, I never saw them. Or that he had no interest in knives to cook, he was not a chef and I didn't say he was but he is Italian and they like food and cooking.
Where'd you read that, that he had no interest in decent knives with which to cook?

And even if he said he did not use any knife for cooking except for a pocket knife, I'm afraid I do not believe him, if he said any such thing he was then distancing himself from the idea of having taken a knife to the cottage.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Michael wrote:
zorba wrote:
Pelerine wrote:
jape wrote:
Had the girls not had a full range of kitchen knives in the cottage drawer (unusual for 4 girls sharing) then AK could have used the unopened pack of knives she had brought across from America and which were under her bed.


Agreed!
Or Filomena would have gone and bought such 6,99 € knife in the next store. No big matter at all and she could it have taken with her, when leaving.



yes but there is no way anyonr can say yes Sollecito definitely knew Knox had those knives and thought they were alright, so it's no use making definite statements if they cannot be definite, and on the knife, it cannot be definite, just because Sollecito knew Knox a wekk did she show him all of her stuff, sounds to me like they were more interested in getting smashed and having sex and enjoying, as in pleasure but nomne iof that says she definitely must have shown him these knives he definitely must have seen them, liked them, who knows what those knives were like.
Most I see that are cheap are useless mainly because they bend, and professional chef's knives do not, not a batter or coteau d office, etc, an office is a small knife but it in no way bends, andthese are to be kept razor sharp, so much so that you can slice paper.




Raffaele had no interest in chefs knives to cook, quality or not. From his own statements he never even used them to cook, including his own kitchen knife in his draw, but when cooking would use his pocket knife to prepare food.

He also would have known what knives the girls had in their kitchen since he'd cooked in it at least once.


When was the once?

As validated.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30   

zorba wrote:
jaybee51 wrote:
zorba wrote:

Yes because if the knife had been found at the trash dump depot or in a trash can, like by and through it having been dumped somewhere around town, and it had then been traced to Knox and Sollecito, it would have been, ah, so why did you dump this knife, nothing to do with your housemate having been murdered yesterday is it???

That's why they kept it.


So do you think they kept the second knife, too ?


... one thing is true; not every knife was tested, in fact, maybe they should have been.

A small knife is usually pretty easy to break, I also know about knives and also have about 30, special knives, for different things, very fine cutting, the small ones I could easily break, and then it would be easy to bury those too, without having to dig a real hole, a big knife would be harder, need a bigger hole, one that might be seen. One thing is sure, they had enough objects to get rid of, the phones, the keys and possibly the smaller knife, so they quickly decided it would be okay to keep the big knife if they scrubbed it.
If there was a smaller knife I doubt they just tossed it into the green wilderness like they did, or intended to, perhaps, with the phones, a key you could drop down an outdoor drain, or throw it or stick it into the ground without needing to bury it, there'd be little chance of it being found, yet, depending on what they did with these things there is always a possibility they will be found, if Sollecito hid them he nmay have collected them, recently and then taken them right away, but if he did I think he would hve been very scared abiout being followed and caught doing that, foe all he knew he might get stopped and searched in Perugia when he returned there, yet, he may still have done it.


Intriguing idea -- hiding the smaller knife in plain sight as well. We know RS had a large number of knives in his collection -- many of a similar size, right? The officers who searched RS's flat selected the kitchen knife based on its blade size fitting the large neck wound as described to them, and its shiny, scratched, very clean appearance from obvious scrubbing. But how many of his personal knife collection did they examine? That knife may very well still be hidden in plain sight among RS's other knife collection.

Police had to use what info they had when searching RS's flat for evidence. If RS still has it, I'd bet that sick, nasty fellow drools over that knife even today.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Sollecito

Lie 1) I was cooking and I pricked her in her hand but she said that it was not a problem

2) I was in solitary and dreamed it up it was not true, it never happened, when in truth he was not in solitary and told this crap early on. And how does one make something like that up, dream it up, in solitary. What nonsense.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

@Michael what you said, but La Nazione Umbria has just posted that "Human DNA has been found and further tests to confirm whose it is will be conducted today Friday" The link @santamariaxx posted on Twitter doesn't work, btw.
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Offline McCall


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

ttrroonniicc wrote:
speed after --

1. throwing the 9 pound rock across the 13 foot gap (from the parapet)


This in itself is near impossible on a first throw. Because of the size of the rock nobody can impart sufficient velocity to throw the rock directly at the window. To hit the window you need to use an arch trajectory. Small differences in angle and velocity have a significant impact on where the rock would ultimately end up. I did the calculations a few weeks back when the rock throw was discussed on .org and I don't remember the exact number but it was less than half a second in miscalculation of travel speed would result in missing the window completely. Most people will greatly overestimate the speed so the first attempt would slam into the side of the cottage. The ballistics expert the defense had repeat this throw required numerous attempts before he finally had a successful one and being a ballistics expert understood trajectories much better than Guede would.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

@essecia's tweet is confusing at best. Was Amanda's DNA the only one found?
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

McCall wrote:
ttrroonniicc wrote:
speed after --

1. throwing the 9 pound rock across the 13 foot gap (from the parapet)


This in itself is near impossible on a first throw. Because of the size of the rock nobody can impart sufficient velocity to throw the rock directly at the window. To hit the window you need to use an arch trajectory. Small differences in angle and velocity have a significant impact on where the rock would ultimately end up. I did the calculations a few weeks back when the rock throw was discussed on .org and I don't remember the exact number but it was less than half a second in miscalculation of travel speed would result in missing the window completely. Most people will greatly overestimate the speed so the first attempt would slam into the side of the cottage. The ballistics expert the defense had repeat this throw required numerous attempts before he finally had a successful one and being a ballistics expert understood trajectories much better than Guede would.


Not only did Sgt. Pasquali not replicate the exact conditions and distances, he used a smaller rock that I could see, LOL. The ITV channel 5 expert held the rock in his hand and bashed it against the window double LOL, and all I could think of was Amanda bashing it from the inside.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

zorba wrote:
Michael wrote:
zorba wrote:
Pelerine wrote:
jape wrote:
Had the girls not had a full range of kitchen knives in the cottage drawer (unusual for 4 girls sharing) then AK could have used the unopened pack of knives she had brought across from America and which were under her bed.


Agreed!
Or Filomena would have gone and bought such 6,99 € knife in the next store. No big matter at all and she could it have taken with her, when leaving.



yes but there is no way anyonr can say yes Sollecito definitely knew Knox had those knives and thought they were alright, so it's no use making definite statements if they cannot be definite, and on the knife, it cannot be definite, just because Sollecito knew Knox a wekk did she show him all of her stuff, sounds to me like they were more interested in getting smashed and having sex and enjoying, as in pleasure but nomne iof that says she definitely must have shown him these knives he definitely must have seen them, liked them, who knows what those knives were like.
Most I see that are cheap are useless mainly because they bend, and professional chef's knives do not, not a batter or coteau d office, etc, an office is a small knife but it in no way bends, andthese are to be kept razor sharp, so much so that you can slice paper.



Raffaele had no interest in chefs knives to cook, quality or not. From his own statements he never even used them to cook, including his own kitchen knife in his draw, but when cooking would use his pocket knife to prepare food.

He also would have known what knives the girls had in their kitchen since he'd cooked in it at least once.



Where are those statements, that he used his pocket knife to cook, I never saw them. Or that he had no interest in knives to cook, he was not a chef and I didn't say he was but he is Italian and they like food and cooking.
Where'd you read that, that he had no interest in decent knives with which to cook?

And even if he said he did not use any knife for cooking except for a pocket knife, I'm afraid I do not believe him, if he said any such thing he was then distancing himself from the idea of having taken a knife to the cottage.



Here's part of it, where he says he never used that knife (the only sharp knife in the kitchen). According to him, only Amanda ever used that knife...for cutting onions: viewtopic.php?p=38313#p38313

He has said he used to use his pocket knife instead, elsewhere.

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Source
Google Translate:
Quote:
Perugia, October 11 - (Adnkronos) - 'human DNA can be analyzed to track' I 'was found on the knife seized at the home of Raffaele Sollecito in the later stages the murder of Meredith Kercher. The figure emerged from the first tests done by the police of Ris, appointed by the Court of Assizes of Appeal of Florence. Now, in the presence of all the consultants, are being held in Rome on the DNA analyzes for attaching it. The review was prepared under the revised bis in Florence.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ergon wrote:
@Michael what you said, but La Nazione Umbria has just posted that "Human DNA has been found and further tests to confirm whose it is will be conducted today Friday" The link @santamariaxx posted on Twitter doesn't work, btw.


Yes, emerging reports are confirming the presence of human DNA, just not as of yet, who it belongs to.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ergon wrote:
@Michael what you said, but La Nazione Umbria has just posted that "Human DNA has been found and further tests to confirm whose it is will be conducted today Friday" The link @santamariaxx posted on Twitter doesn't work, btw.


So much for Vecchiotti and Conti's claims that the knife samples tested negative for human species!!! V & C caught in yet another lie.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30   

Slade wrote:
zorba wrote:
jaybee51 wrote:
zorba wrote:

Yes because if the knife had been found at the trash dump depot or in a trash can, like by and through it having been dumped somewhere around town, and it had then been traced to Knox and Sollecito, it would have been, ah, so why did you dump this knife, nothing to do with your housemate having been murdered yesterday is it???

That's why they kept it.


So do you think they kept the second knife, too ?


... one thing is true; not every knife was tested, in fact, maybe they should have been.

A small knife is usually pretty easy to break, I also know about knives and also have about 30, special knives, for different things, very fine cutting, the small ones I could easily break, and then it would be easy to bury those too, without having to dig a real hole, a big knife would be harder, need a bigger hole, one that might be seen. One thing is sure, they had enough objects to get rid of, the phones, the keys and possibly the smaller knife, so they quickly decided it would be okay to keep the big knife if they scrubbed it.
If there was a smaller knife I doubt they just tossed it into the green wilderness like they did, or intended to, perhaps, with the phones, a key you could drop down an outdoor drain, or throw it or stick it into the ground without needing to bury it, there'd be little chance of it being found, yet, depending on what they did with these things there is always a possibility they will be found, if Sollecito hid them he nmay have collected them, recently and then taken them right away, but if he did I think he would hve been very scared abiout being followed and caught doing that, foe all he knew he might get stopped and searched in Perugia when he returned there, yet, he may still have done it.


Intriguing idea -- hiding the smaller knife in plain sight as well. We know RS had a large number of knives in his collection -- many of a similar size, right? The officers who searched RS's flat selected the kitchen knife based on its blade size fitting the large neck wound as described to them, and its shiny, scratched, very clean appearance from obvious scrubbing. But how many of his personal knife collection did they examine? That knife may very well still be hidden in plain sight among RS's other knife collection.

Police had to use what info they had when searching RS's flat for evidence. If RS still has it, I'd bet that sick, nasty fellow drools over that knife even today.



Hi Slade and welcome to PMF!!! :) Sollecito kept his main knife collection back at his father's house. He only had a few knives with him in Perugia...two pocket knives and a combat knife (that we know about).

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Offline Slade


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Pelerine wrote:
Ergon wrote:
However, Slade and Aranavachi, .ORG is what it is, and we are what we are, for better and for worse. One thing we're all committed to, them, us, TJMK and TMOMK Wiki, is justice for Meredith Kercher. Perhaps that is what we should focus on now? Whatever differences in style we all have as personal individuals, does not matter in the service of that ideal.

Plus there's a party I'm hoping to be invited to in London some time next year :)



I agree! As we are all fighting the same battle - Justice for Meredith and peace and closure for her grieving family.
Together we are strong and I do not find it useful to split our forces.


Agree with both of you, as well -- no reason not to rely on each others' strengths. Guess that's why I didn't understand the vicious hazing from a few of those folks -- what were they trying to achieve by it?

How many people worldwide are still following the case closely and are zealous advocates for justice for Meredith and her family? Why intentionally alienate those who are already in complete agreement and so your side?

Ergon, I also got banned from TJMK after my first post by your buddy Pete. Apparently I didn't drool sufficiently in agreement with his idea that Katie Couric was going to tear RS to pieces on her show -- one of RS's first interviews in the US post his book release. The opinion I shared was since Katie's show was a hoped for afternoon talk show replacement for Oprah Winfrey, she probably wasn't going to rip the guy apart on the first leg of his lightweight book promo tour. Katie did land some tough questions, much better than most others who interviewed him, (thanks to NYC-based advocate 'Bedelia' (sp?) but certainly not the bloodbath Pete was hoping for. I did use 'Slade' for that registration as well. The post removal and banning was completely surprising and very disappointing.

Now, I promise not to mention this again.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

As always, warm thoughts to the Kercher family today. How difficult this process must be for them.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Slade wrote:
Agree with both of you, as well -- no reason not to rely on each others' strengths. Guess that's why I didn't understand the vicious hazing from a few of those folks -- what were they trying to achieve by it?

How many people worldwide are still following the case closely and are zealous advocates for justice for Meredith and her family? Why intentionally alienate those who are already in complete agreement and so your side?

Ergon, I also got banned from TJMK after my first post by your buddy Pete. Apparently I didn't drool sufficiently in agreement with his idea that Katie Couric was going to tear RS to pieces on her show -- one of RS's first interviews in the US post his book release. The opinion I shared was since Katie's show was a hoped for afternoon talk show replacement for Oprah Winfrey, she probably wasn't going to rip the guy apart on the first leg of his lightweight book promo tour. Katie did land some tough questions, much better than most others who interviewed him, (thanks to NYC-based advocate 'Bedelia' (sp?) but certainly not the bloodbath Pete was hoping for. I did use 'Slade' for that registration as well. The post removal and banning was completely surprising and very disappointing.

Now, I promise not to mention this again.



It's okay, you can vent. It's probably best to do that first, then we can move on :)

As for Peter Quennell, he has a shoot first and ask questions later policy going on. Several times in the past, we have remarked about how if only he could be "Not Quite So Fast Pete" instead of "Fast Pete" ;)

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Another post Source
Google Translate
Quote:
Florence, October 11, 2013 - It 'started the work of the police of the Ris of Rome, flanked by the consultants, the trace of DNA found on the knife seized at the home of Raffaele Sollecito and not yet examined.
The survey, which began as early as yesterday afternoon, and that will continue for the day today, it was ordered by the Court of Assizes of Appeal of Florence is ongoing in the trial for the murder of Meredith Kercher: Amanda defendants are Knox and Raffaele Sollecito. During the appeal process the track now the subject of expertise had not been examined because it was considered in quantitative 'insufficient.
The work on the weapon had led to the identification of a small trace of genetic material . From the latest updates revealed that this track is analyzed human DNA. They are now taking all steps to give some attribution to the genetic code . Exams are held in the presence of consultants appointed by all the parties to the proceedings.


So it looks like a defense rumour, that it belongs to Amanda Knox. FWIW.
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Offline Iodine


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

The trace itself has always been known to be human. ("Certainly an odd thing to find on the blade of a knife if one is thinking of normal use of the utensil" -- Galati appeal). I think today's result is that the sample is still eligible for amplification.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ergon wrote:
Another post Source
Google Translate
Quote:
Florence, October 11, 2013 - It 'started the work of the police of the Ris of Rome, flanked by the consultants, the trace of DNA found on the knife seized at the home of Raffaele Sollecito and not yet examined.
The survey, which began as early as yesterday afternoon, and that will continue for the day today, it was ordered by the Court of Assizes of Appeal of Florence is ongoing in the trial for the murder of Meredith Kercher: Amanda defendants are Knox and Raffaele Sollecito. During the appeal process the track now the subject of expertise had not been examined because it was considered in quantitative 'insufficient.
The work on the weapon had led to the identification of a small trace of genetic material . From the latest updates revealed that this track is analyzed human DNA. They are now taking all steps to give some attribution to the genetic code . Exams are held in the presence of consultants appointed by all the parties to the proceedings.


So it looks like a defense rumour, that it belongs to Amanda Knox. FWIW.


As far as I'm aware, there was no rumour on who it belonged to, from the defence or anyone else. The only confusion, was caused by that original Tweet and that was only because it was extremely vague.

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Offline Slade


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30   

Michael wrote:
Slade wrote:
jaybee51 wrote:

So do you think they kept the second knife, too ?



Intriguing idea -- hiding the smaller knife in plain sight as well. We know RS had a large number of knives in his collection -- many of a similar size, right? The officers who searched RS's flat selected the kitchen knife based on its blade size fitting the large neck wound as described to them, and its shiny, scratched, very clean appearance from obvious scrubbing. But how many of his personal knife collection did they examine? That knife may very well still be hidden in plain sight among RS's other knife collection.

Police had to use what info they had when searching RS's flat for evidence. If RS still has it, I'd bet that sick, nasty fellow drools over that knife even today.



Hi Slade and welcome to PMF!!! :) Sollecito kept his main knife collection back at his father's house. He only had a few knives with him in Perugia...two pocket knives and a combat knife (that we know about).


Hey Michael, good to know this, thanks! Suppose it was possible to have hidden an unrecovered knife somewhere in his apt. or car, then retrieve it later. Probably another of those things we'll never know for certain.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30   

Slade wrote:
Michael wrote:
Slade wrote:
jaybee51 wrote:

So do you think they kept the second knife, too ?



Intriguing idea -- hiding the smaller knife in plain sight as well. We know RS had a large number of knives in his collection -- many of a similar size, right? The officers who searched RS's flat selected the kitchen knife based on its blade size fitting the large neck wound as described to them, and its shiny, scratched, very clean appearance from obvious scrubbing. But how many of his personal knife collection did they examine? That knife may very well still be hidden in plain sight among RS's other knife collection.

Police had to use what info they had when searching RS's flat for evidence. If RS still has it, I'd bet that sick, nasty fellow drools over that knife even today.



Hi Slade and welcome to PMF!!! :) Sollecito kept his main knife collection back at his father's house. He only had a few knives with him in Perugia...two pocket knives and a combat knife (that we know about).


Hey Michael, good to know this, thanks! Suppose it was possible to have hidden an unrecovered knife somewhere in his apt. or car, then retrieve it later. Probably another of those things we'll never know for certain.



Well, according to Massei, that other pocket knife was missing/lost. The court was left only with a description of it and its dimensions from Sollecito's friends who had seen it. Massei concluded that that knife, from the descriptions, was a match for the secondary wound to Meredith's neck.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

OMG, on the Canadian murderer Nicole Kish:

Quote:
"It is difficult to see how (Kish), flailing wildly atop Hammond on the north side of the street, while stabbing him four times in the chest, would have received only a single, tiny deposit on her shoe."

Watts has not had an opportunity to respond to the factum Kish's legal team has filed nor have any of the allegations contained in it been proven in court.

Injustice Anywhere, the group credited with securing Knox's acquittal, has taken up her cause and garnered her supporters around the world.
There's a Free Nyki Facebook page and website and she's written a blog from Grand Valley prison, where she is now in medium security.



SUN NEWS NETWORK

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Slade wrote:
Pelerine wrote:
Ergon wrote:
However, Slade and Aranavachi, .ORG is what it is, and we are what we are, for better and for worse. One thing we're all committed to, them, us, TJMK and TMOMK Wiki, is justice for Meredith Kercher. Perhaps that is what we should focus on now? Whatever differences in style we all have as personal individuals, does not matter in the service of that ideal.

Plus there's a party I'm hoping to be invited to in London some time next year :)



I agree! As we are all fighting the same battle - Justice for Meredith and peace and closure for her grieving family.
Together we are strong and I do not find it useful to split our forces.


Agree with both of you, as well -- no reason not to rely on each others' strengths. Guess that's why I didn't understand the vicious hazing from a few of those folks -- what were they trying to achieve by it?

How many people worldwide are still following the case closely and are zealous advocates for justice for Meredith and her family? Why intentionally alienate those who are already in complete agreement and so your side?

Ergon, I also got banned from TJMK after my first post by your buddy Pete. Apparently I didn't drool sufficiently in agreement with his idea that Katie Couric was going to tear RS to pieces on her show -- one of RS's first interviews in the US post his book release. The opinion I shared was since Katie's show was a hoped for afternoon talk show replacement for Oprah Winfrey, she probably wasn't going to rip the guy apart on the first leg of his lightweight book promo tour. Katie did land some tough questions, much better than most others who interviewed him, (thanks to NYC-based advocate 'Bedelia' (sp?) but certainly not the bloodbath Pete was hoping for. I did use 'Slade' for that registration as well. The post removal and banning was completely surprising and very disappointing.

Now, I promise not to mention this again.


Slade, as someone who's still banned Else Where ;) I hear you. Yes, some things might be done better.

But I wouldn't consider anyone my 'buddy'; everyone knows I'm a one man band, who does whatever he thinks best always and the hell with the consequences :) Plus a certain matter of principles. Not a compromiser on that, sorry. is)

So we all have our quirks, and I've butted heads with Peter, Peggy, and even Michael hugz-) umpteen times. We move on for this cause. Or we do not, which is too bad.

About Katie Couric, hats off to Bedelia who handed out flyers outside the show on the day of the interview. The studio audience found out what a fraud RS was. But I phoned, e-mailed, faxed, and actually spoke to a producer on Katie's show two weeks before it aired, and used my name and full address, telephone number to do so. Did that result in the tough questioning and dismissal of him in the end? I do not know, and kudos are not important anyway. If it helped, great.

But what I have been consistent about, is ask for unity. To that end, I will be writing for True Justice, just as I have contributed to the TMOMK Wiki.

I like to believe that Meredith's spirit is now, at peace. That, and her family's well being, is important to all of us.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Corriere Dell'Umbria publishes that the remaining sample has been identified as belonging to Amanda Knox.

Analizzata la terza traccia sul coltello
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Nell wrote:
Corriere Dell'Umbria publishes that the remaining sample has been identified as belonging to Amanda Knox.

Analizzata la terza traccia sul coltello


Hi Nell. Okay, I think we need at least a second independent report for corroboration.

I'd be surprised actually, I wasn't expecting the test to have been completed anywhere near this quickly.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Here's a GOOGLE TRANSLATION of the article linked by Nell above:

Analyzed the third track on the knife : " It belongs to Amanda "
Tests Ris do not call into question either Sollecito or Guede . The Maori lawyer : "I am satisfied , foregone conclusion . That is not the murder weapon "


In the process of a call to Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito genetic analysis back into the foreground. The Ris of Rome has analyzed the track on knife - the murder weapon according to the reconstruction of the prosecution - that already in the first appeal process had been identified between handle and blade but so far examined , unlike the other two (one on the handle and the other on the blade ) . The genetic profile excerpt would have been brought back to Amanda Knox. The inspection was carried out on the basis of the question of the judges to the expert who asked to investigate the possible presence of DNA of Meredith and Rudy Guede .

The track examined was the intersection between handle and blade ( the knife was then ' open') . The quantification of the extract returned a DNA of 2 picograms . A quantity that would have been " too low" to proceed further under the old techniques, but which has now been possible to analyze with attribution to Knox. The technical assessment , conducted between the parties , began yesterday and will end in the late afternoon with a second examination as a counter (but do not expect "surprises" ) .

Among the first reactions , that of the lawyer Luca Maori , a lawyer for Raffaele Sollecito . "I am satisfied with the outcome , which could only be that ," says Maori alluding to the fact that Amanda had already been given - without challenge - the tracks found on the handle of the knife and would therefore be " obvious that the finger is finished even close at the intersection . " In other words , it appeared that "the track was not analyzed that the continuation of the one already examined previously," and that " the attribution to Knox is normal in relation to a knife that was found in Sollecito's house and that the girl , like other knives that there they were, may have touched and used multiple times . " In short, for Maori is " clear that the knife is not the murder weapon because firstly incompatible with the wounds inflicted upon the poor Meredith ."

On November 6, is expected to be discussed the outcome of the expert opinion on the knife at the court of Assizes of Appeal of Florence.


This therefore brings us back to here: viewtopic.php?p=113526#p113526 and here: viewtopic.php?p=113528#p113528 and here: viewtopic.php?p=113558#p113558

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Michael wrote:
OMG, on the Canadian murderer Nicole Kish:

Quote:
"It is difficult to see how (Kish), flailing wildly atop Hammond on the north side of the street, while stabbing him four times in the chest, would have received only a single, tiny deposit on her shoe."

Watts has not had an opportunity to respond to the factum Kish's legal team has filed nor have any of the allegations contained in it been proven in court.

Injustice Anywhere, the group credited with securing Knox's acquittal, has taken up her cause and garnered her supporters around the world.
There's a Free Nyki Facebook page and website and she's written a blog from Grand Valley prison, where she is now in medium security.



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My comment posted in response to the article:

Quote:
Ahem, a slight correction: Injustice-Anywhere did not get Amanda Knox acquitted, that was an Italian judge, whose decision has since been annulled. The site is populated by a few people (world wide, I grant you) who believe philosophically in judicial and prosecutorial corruption, and consistently argue that small quantities of forensic evidence or none are sufficient to acquit the accused, anywhere. That is why we have judges and prosecutors and juries to ensure a fair trial. That is why I believe in the system we have and that Nyki Kish was treated justly. Disclosure: I am an administrator of the Internet Website PerugiaMurderFile.Net which advocates for justice for the victim, Meredith Kercher, in the Amanda Knox murder trial.
Naseer Ahmad
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

IF its Amanda's DNA that has been found and confirmed on the knife, doesn't that indicate that the first tests on the knife were accurate and not a result of contamination as they also found Amanda's DNA? If Amandas has been verified by two seperate departments, that would have to add 'value' to the correctness of the first tests, and to the correct finding of DNA attributed to Meredith.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Stan wrote:
IF its Amanda's DNA that has been found and confirmed on the knife, doesn't that indicate that the first tests on the knife were accurate and not a result of contamination as they also found Amanda's DNA? If Amandas has been verified by two seperate departments, that would have to add 'value' to the correctness of the first tests, and to the correct finding of DNA attributed to Meredith.



Hi Stan. The first tests only showed positive for Knox on the handle, this sample (I believe) comes from the blade.

However, it is important to note that each individual sample (Stefanoni's and sample 36-i) only comes from a tiny portion of the knife blade, as opposed to from having swabbed the whole of the blade. Therefore, their results can only include individuals rather then eliminate them.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

I seriously doubt it would be possible to find my DNA on the blades of my kitchen knives, but of course I could be wrong.

If the result has been reported correctly by Corriere Dell'Umbria, in my view it only strengthens the theory that it was Amanda Knox who cleaned the crime scene and the knife.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 5:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Nell wrote:
I seriously doubt it would be possible to find my DNA on the blades of my kitchen knives, but of course I could be wrong.

If the result has been reported correctly by Corriere Dell'Umbria, in my view it only strengthens the theory that it was Amanda Knox who cleaned the crime scene and the knife.



Yes, it supports the argument that Knox not only used the knife, but also was the one who cleaned it. That is further supported by the fact that none of the tests on the knife have ever revealed any of Sollecito's DNA on it.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 5:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Michael wrote:
OMG, on the Canadian murderer Nicole Kish:

Quote:
"It is difficult to see how (Kish), flailing wildly atop Hammond on the north side of the street, while stabbing him four times in the chest, would have received only a single, tiny deposit on her shoe."

Watts has not had an opportunity to respond to the factum Kish's legal team has filed nor have any of the allegations contained in it been proven in court.

Injustice Anywhere, the group credited with securing Knox's acquittal, has taken up her cause and garnered her supporters around the world.
There's a Free Nyki Facebook page and website and she's written a blog from Grand Valley prison, where she is now in medium security.



SUN NEWS NETWORK



http://canlii.ca/en/on/onsc/doc/2011/20 ... c1303.html

Queen street in Toronto has a hipsterish "safe" area around the corporate/touristy downtown but the situation deteriorates after about ten blocks and gets really sketchy. She was part of a group of street kids that jumped a couple of guys at an ATM. It seems there was a surveillance tape possibly showing the incident which was lost/overwritten by the police, but multiple eyewitnesses testified.

You can probably infer guilt at this point just from the fact that IA is backing her, but from Canlii:

----------------------------------------------------------
[69] It is self-evident that the person who stabbed Ross Hammond four times in the chest caused Mr. Hammond’s death and that his death was caused unlawfully. It should also be obvious from the number, nature and location of the stab wounds that, whoever stabbed Ross Hammond, that person either meant to kill Mr. Hammond or was reckless whether Mr. Hammond lived or died. Given those facts, defence counsel does not dispute that, if Ms. Kish is the person who stabbed Mr. Hammond, she would be guilty of second degree murder.

[70] At the same time, a person can be found guilty of second degree murder even though they do not administer the fatal injuries. If a person is a party to a murder, they are equally guilty of the offence. In this case, if someone brought a knife to the fight and then passed it to another participant in the fight, given the circumstances in which the fight was occurring, then that person could be seen as having intended that the other person use the knife in the fight and the person would then have the subjective foresight that death would likely result from the use of the knife. That person would be a party to the offence as an aider. The defence also does not dispute that, if Ms. Kish brought the knife to the fight and passed it to one of her friends with the intent that it be used on Mr. Hammond, then Ms. Kish would be guilty of second degree murder as an aider.

...[74] Having said that, however, recognizing that there are risks associated with eyewitness identification cannot at the same time paralyze triers of fact from reaching conclusions based on such evidence when the trier finds it reliable. In other words, we must not become so fearful of the problems associated with the evidence of eyewitnesses that we effectively abandon that evidence or refuse to act on it.

[136] Ms. Kish engaged in the second fight and, according to the three witnesses I have just mentioned, she delivered blows to Mr. Hammond. I am satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt that those blows were the stabs wounds to Mr. Hammond’s chest. It was after those blows were delivered that Mr. Hammond managed to wrest the knife away from Ms. Kish and then struck out at her, stabbing her in the forearm.

-------------------------------------

I note that Kish's mom failed to mention this injury to the papers or explain why, if Kish was uninvolved, she came to have any of the vicitim's blood on her clothing. Her blood and his blood are on the knife. I can't imagine what her grounds for appeal are in this case, but after reading the Canlii it will fail. The Sun says she can be set free but our appeals courts don't do that -- at most they might order a new trial but I would doubt it -- as a matter of law she is guilty just for participating, although in this case her culpability seems like much more than that (her attorney seems to think it's relevant whether she started it; she very obviously ended it. Meanwhile Kish stated her hope that the person responsible "come forward" even though all parties are currently known.)
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 5:38 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

This photo taken in Carla Vechiotti's lab the day she 'tested' the knife is probably a good indication from where the sample was taken: from the blade, close to the handle.


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Offline jaybee51


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 5:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30   

Michael wrote:
Well, according to Massei, that other pocket knife was missing/lost. The court was left only with a description of it and its dimensions from Sollecito's friends who had seen it. Massei concluded that that knife, from the descriptions, was a match for the secondary wound to Meredith's neck.


This is fascinating - I hadn't heard about this before. Can you point me to the source documents so that I can read more. Thanks.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 5:58 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Michael's description of Massei's comments is pretty much all that's said about it, I believe. There is a description of the blade dimensions in the synopsis of the injuries (2cm wide, 9 cm long, if I recall).
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30   

jaybee51 wrote:
Michael wrote:
Well, according to Massei, that other pocket knife was missing/lost. The court was left only with a description of it and its dimensions from Sollecito's friends who had seen it. Massei concluded that that knife, from the descriptions, was a match for the secondary wound to Meredith's neck.


This is fascinating - I hadn't heard about this before. Can you point me to the source documents so that I can read more. Thanks.



It's in the Massei Report. In the area where he discusses the injuries to the victim's neck and the murder weapons.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30   

jaybee51 wrote:
Michael wrote:
Well, according to Massei, that other pocket knife was missing/lost. The court was left only with a description of it and its dimensions from Sollecito's friends who had seen it. Massei concluded that that knife, from the descriptions, was a match for the secondary wound to Meredith's neck.


This is fascinating - I hadn't heard about this before. Can you point me to the source documents so that I can read more. Thanks.


Hi jaybee,

You find it in the Massei report (page 373-374 of the English translation). IIRC the "lost" knife has also been mentioned on TJMK.

EDIT: I might add that Raffaele Sollecito's friends described his "favourite" knife for the court, but the knife itself has never been found. Apparently he was inseperable from that knife and used it often. I am sure had Sollecito taken the stand, the prosecution would have asked him what happened to his knife.
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Offline jaybee51


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

I think I've misinterpreted something. I read the Massei report - doing a search on knife - and it says the penknife used in the murder is missing and his friends talked of him always carrying a knife. I assumed they could be referring to the knife he was still carrying days later. Is there a reason why that knife was disqualified as the murder weapon?

As Iodine pointed out to me, there isn't a specific knife that Raffaele owned that is now known to be missing.

Thanks for your helpful answers.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

The knife Sollecito was found carrying wasn't a match for the fatal wound and also carried no traces from the victim. It was excluded very early on in the case, during the investigation phase.

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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Amanda Knox: è sua la traccia di Dna sul coltello che uccise Meredith?
Pubblicato il 11 ottobre 2013 20.20 | Ultimo aggiornamento: 11 ottobre 2013 20.20
http://www.blitzquotidiano.it/cronaca-i ... r-1689988/

(quick googletrans)
ROME - There would be some evidence to suggest that there is the DNA of Amanda Knox found on the track, but so far examined, on the knife believed to be the weapon of murder of Meredith Kercher. And 'what would be emerging from the expert's report ordered by the court of Florence for the Appeals a.
For the final outcome, however, need further investigation. Right from the expert opinion on appeal in Perugia, emerged handle a trace of Amanda. That now in the hands of Ris and their consultants had been found in insufficient quantities.

(altri accertamenti?)
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Thanks Ava. I think we really need a proper translation of that one from somewhere. On face value, it seems to be saying the finding of Knox's DNA comes from the handle, but the handle or any other part of the knife isn't being retested, only sample 36-i and that is from the blade.

What does come over clearly, is that whatever testing they are doing, they haven't completed it yet. What we are hearing at the moment, are only their preliminary findings.

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Offline DoctorRadias


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Napia5 wrote:
I think I've finally figured out what's wrong with the current PR narrative. I believe that it's the reason why people are not reacting favorably to her.

At some point, during any one of the interviews, Knox should have turned to the cameras and said, "I know many of you out there think I'm innocent. and I thank you for your support. The Kerchers believe that I am guilty and I can't do anything about that. What I CAN do is ask that all of you who support my innocence recognize that the Kerchers are as caught in this nightmare as I am. They lost their daughter, and even though you may believe in my innocence, it helps no one if you publicly attack and insult this family. So I ask you, for my sake leave the Kerchers in peace.

I've been waiting for this since I first heard that she was going to do interviews. Guess I shouldn't hold my breath. I'm just expecting that sooner or later, she'll finally say something that an innocent person would say. Even by accident.



Now that you've bought it up.. I wonder how long til we hear Knox say something like that

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Last edited by DoctorRadias on Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline tamale


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

guermantes wrote:
What to expect from the retesting of the DNA on the knife in the Amanda Knox case?

New update from Andrea Vogt:

Amanda Knox Appeal II / Meredith Kercher Murder
Update Oct. 9, 2013

The new forensic testing of the knife ordered by Judge Alessandro Nencini at the start of Amanda Knox’s appeals trial in Florence is going ahead at the Caribinieri RIS laboratories in Rome. But how crucial will the results be to appeal outcome?


THE FREELANCE DESK


Thank you Guermantes!
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

DoctorRadias wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
I think I've finally figured out what's wrong with the current PR narrative. I believe that it's the reason why people are not reacting favorably to her.

At some point, during any one of the interviews, Knox should have turned to the cameras and said, "I know many of you out there think I'm innocent. and I thank you for your support. The Kerchers believe that I am guilty and I can't do anything about that. What I CAN do is ask that all of you who support my innocence recognize that the Kerchers are as caught in this nightmare as I am. They lost their daughter, and even though you may believe in my innocence, it helps no one if you publicly attack and insult this family. So I ask you, for my sake leave the Kerchers in peace.

I've been waiting for this since I first heard that she was going to do interviews. Guess I shouldn't hold my breath. I'm just expecting that sooner or later, she'll finally say something that an innocent person would say. Even by accident.



Now that you've bought it up.. I wonder how long til we hear Knox say something like that


I think it's too late for that, Doctor Radias. Seriously, it's the reason I waited to bring it up, and thought about it long and hard before I posted it.
It's too late. Had she done this from the beginning, say in the Diane Sawyer interview, she might have come off golden. Certainly not to anyone who has studied the case to any extent and believes that the two of them are guilty. She wouldn't have appealed to any of us. but, America tuned in. She had a book, hot off the presses, and she was seeking publicity to garner interest for her book.
America tuned in, and in my opinion, most of America then lost interest and walked away. I seriously doubt that there's anything that will re-engage those people who don't know much, and don't really care.
It's too late.
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Offline DoctorRadias


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Napia5 wrote:

I think it's too late for that, Doctor Radias. Seriously, it's the reason I waited to bring it up, and thought about it long and hard before I posted it.
It's too late. Had she done this from the beginning, say in the Diane Sawyer interview, she might have come off golden. Certainly not to anyone who has studied the case to any extent and believes that the two of them are guilty. She wouldn't have appealed to any of us. but, America tuned in. She had a book, hot off the presses, and she was seeking publicity to garner interest for her book.
America tuned in, and in my opinion, most of America then lost interest and walked away. I seriously doubt that there's anything that will re-engage those people who don't know much, and don't really care.
It's too late.


Its far too late for any remorse Napia. we know that.. most folk know that, but we know much straw grasping goes on in the knoxious camp..

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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Omicidio Meredith, su coltello
indizi del Dna di Amanda Knox
Il coltello è stato sequestrato a casa di Raffaele Sollecito ed è ritenuto l'arma del delitto. La traccia non fu esaminata perché la quantità di materiale fu ritenuta insufficiente
11 ottobre 2013, 5 minuti fa
http://www.repubblica.it/cronaca/2013/1 ... -68410733/

(google trans)
"...
The exams started yesterday and continued throughout the day today , in the presence of the consultants of the parties. For the final outcome , however, need further investigation . The results will then be displayed in a report , which will be filed by the end of October and discussed in class on November 6.
The track was identified by the experts named in the appeal trial in Perugia , but not subjected to analysis because it was considered not susceptible to "correct amplification , being a low copy number " . That is an amount of DNA that " it can not ensure reliable results ."
The same criterion led to believe unreliable giving the Kercher another track of DNA found on the blade. The experts of the courts of second instance instead believed correct identification of Knox 's DNA on the handle of the knife: Amanda at the time was engaged to Sollecito and therefore normally used its objects in the kitchen.
...
The lawyers Luciano Ghirga and Luca Maori , Sollecito and Knox 's lawyers , they are in fact limited to make it clear that they would be satisfied if the rumors were confirmed on the attribution of the young Seattle. " If correspond to true - said the Kercher family lawyer , the lawyer Francesco Maresca - it is confirmed that the knife is passed into the hands of Amanda , being satisfied that the survey had to be completed and that it was instead left unfinished .""


Last edited by Ava on Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline dgfred


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

I see 'rumors' and 'correspond to true'... doesn't seem too sure.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

I spent some time today reading Sollecito's diary. We have a copy here in our section entitled "In Their Own Words".
Start at the bottom of page 8, November 16, 2007 and continue through half of page 9, and you will be able to read his panic at the test results. He is also panicked over finding things on the rags.
Now why would the rags concern him in connection with the knife?
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Offline Aranavachi


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:42 pm   Post subject: Re: At PMF.org -- paranoia is thick!   

zorba wrote:
Aranavachi wrote:
In regards to your question I believe that strictly speaking they are right, however there is always the possibility that Cassation will pass back down to another appeal court (as far as I have understood Italian law).




After this appeal which is not something that actually can be classed as a second appeal but THE appeal as the other was made void, there is the Supreme Court, and the ruling made by the latter, is the final ruling.

It cannot be passed back down, you've misunderstood that.

If this court finds her guilty and the Supreme sees no points of law have been incorrectly applied, ignored, etc, then if that Supreme Court upholds the ruling, there can be no more appealing.


America has signed up to respecting the sovereignty of certain countries, Italy is one of these, this means it is obliged to respect its laws.

If this case had involved separate trials, then the concept of fouble jeapoardy ciould be brought up, because this would mean that if a ruling made on the basis of two separate trials tried the sanme person twice, double jeopardy would apply, but this case has had no such two trials no matter what those who are ignorant of law write in their online papers, this is all one trial, on the basis of a singletrial, ongoing and going through its different processes, America cannot refuse to hand Knox over, because there is no basis for it according to International law, which means in relationship to the treaties America and Italy have with each other, Italy has not tried Knox twice, the press writing tried again all the time does not make the process of appeals in different trials.

To refuse to extradite Knoxon the basis of there were separate trials, would mean America fails ro recognise Italy's sovereignty, and that is not something taken likely, because Italy only has to show that Knox and Sollecito were not tried twice according to the concept of trial finished with, then new trial set up, that was never the case, so then America would be proved wrong.

Had the case been finalised, the appeals process run through, Supreme court declaring the release and not guilty verdict final, only to reopen the case 3 years later, then America could refuse to extradite, and America could also grant Sollecito asylum as could other countries on the basis that Sollecito was being tried twice, but he is not and neither is Knox.

At the moment the Hellmann court released the pair, Hellmann knew this was only part of the ongoing same court trial, he never said she is free to go forever, so countries writing things according to the little bit of law they understand of their own country has absolutely no relevance, and the thing is, Knox's family knew too that the release was never just going to be the end of it, as it was only one part of the whole, and the whole is not complete until all segments have been inserted.
Just because American and British papers and news shows knew and know nothing (and do not care to look properly) of Italian law, announcing overturned as if THAT is IT, has no eaffect, only in the minds of those who like to write uninformed nonsense.

To create the idea of it having been FINAL is something Knox and even Sollecito's families have been glad to do, to stir up mayhem, knowing the facts full well themselves.

So for PR reasons, the thinking/strategy has been:

1) Let's have everyone imagine, hey, they've been released, as in released end of.

2) If Hellmann had said guilty, then it would have been Knox and Sollecito claiming the right to appeal, they would never have been shouting from the rooftops that it is unfair.
They are just trying to misuse the laws to suit their situation by creating impressions hoping that swaying public opinion can override any court proceedings.

3) The strategy has been to create the impression that having the ruling by the first court overturned means it is final.
However, that part of the process was a matter of general practice.
Generating the idea/giving people the impression that it was final leaves them with the opportunity to create further media mayhem, we can say, hey, look at that bad Italy, releasing them retrying them.
Those crazy third world judges are going to try them again, poor things.


I do understand that there is no double jeopardy as I pointed out and in line to your statement I mentioned that the Supreme Court may pass the case back down if it is not satisfied with any of the elements which it needs to confirm in order for the verdict to be final.

On an aside I was hypothesizing that AK may be laying the grounds for avoiding extradition due to mental health. I know of a case where extradition from the UK to South Africa was delayed (is delayed?) due to the accused claiming PTSD and severe depression etc. However this is because he is unable to stand trial in that state which would be a factual distinction with this case - where Knox would be extradited already convicted and not to stand trial. Also of course this is US and Italy and not UK and South Africa. I am not aware of the laws, but in short I was pondering the possibility of using mental illness as an argument against extradition.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

If she is planning on using PTSD as a mental illness excuse, she had better march her butt to a psychiatrist.
I don't believe that she will receive anything but a shake of the head if she declares that she has been home from Italy for 2 years and is able to attend classes and write a book, but is suffering from untreated PTSD.
Perhaps the Italian prison system will provide her with counseling.
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Offline Aranavachi


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Michael wrote:
Aranavachi wrote:
Michael, I believe I havent communicated what I meant clearly. I absolutely agree with why they took the knife with them after the murder. My problem was more about why they took the knife to the cottage. Therefore I was thinking perhaps they didnt have a wide range of knives at the cottage and initially they took it over to use for some cooking...its just very hard to bring myself to a reality where these two left RS apartment with two knives and the intent to kill poor Meredith. I cant get my head around it.

Though I must say that last years halloween stabbing in Rome (an American guy who stabbed his room mate for no reason) was an eye opener to just how crazy drugs can make a person. All logic flies out the window.



When our Gallery used to work we did have a picture of the cottage kitchen knives. They had quite a range and number. One thing was clear from that photo - Sollecito's knife would have been surplus to requirements for any cooking task. Moreover, as Jape pointed out above, Knox had further knives still under her bed (although, we've never obtained a photo of those). And the final point, is from their testimony, they'd already cooked and eaten that night at some point before 8:40 pm. So, the one thing a knife wasn't needed for, was cooking.

In fact, it's for this reason (and others) that some of us here, myself included, have come to the conclusion that Meredith's murder was premeditated.


I suppose if there were a selection of knives at the cottage, my excuse for them doesnt work. It just is so difficult to believe (what a world!) they would have gone over with the knife to kill poor Meredith... perhaps this was another one of AK's pranks!?

One thing is clear - they did go over there with that knife and the knife was used (as confirmed by Sollecitto) to murder Meredith. The why is irrelevant other than for human curiosity and disbelief.
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Offline Aranavachi


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Slade wrote:
Pelerine wrote:
Ergon wrote:
However, Slade and Aranavachi, .ORG is what it is, and we are what we are, for better and for worse. One thing we're all committed to, them, us, TJMK and TMOMK Wiki, is justice for Meredith Kercher. Perhaps that is what we should focus on now? Whatever differences in style we all have as personal individuals, does not matter in the service of that ideal.

Plus there's a party I'm hoping to be invited to in London some time next year :)



I agree! As we are all fighting the same battle - Justice for Meredith and peace and closure for her grieving family.
Together we are strong and I do not find it useful to split our forces.


Agree with both of you, as well -- no reason not to rely on each others' strengths. Guess that's why I didn't understand the vicious hazing from a few of those folks -- what were they trying to achieve by it?

How many people worldwide are still following the case closely and are zealous advocates for justice for Meredith and her family? Why intentionally alienate those who are already in complete agreement and so your side?

Ergon, I also got banned from TJMK after my first post by your buddy Pete. Apparently I didn't drool sufficiently in agreement with his idea that Katie Couric was going to tear RS to pieces on her show -- one of RS's first interviews in the US post his book release. The opinion I shared was since Katie's show was a hoped for afternoon talk show replacement for Oprah Winfrey, she probably wasn't going to rip the guy apart on the first leg of his lightweight book promo tour. Katie did land some tough questions, much better than most others who interviewed him, (thanks to NYC-based advocate 'Bedelia' (sp?) but certainly not the bloodbath Pete was hoping for. I did use 'Slade' for that registration as well. The post removal and banning was completely surprising and very disappointing.

Now, I promise not to mention this again.


Its interesting to hear your experience with TJMK, I was always very well received there and Pete was always very kind. Having said that, my login hasnt worked for quite sometime and I did email Pete about it and never heard back...this was after a big disagreement with the Machine. Internet politics is a strange phenomenon for me, truly I think I am net-socially inept!
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Candace Dempsey is out there lying to the world on Twitter, declaring Knox's DNA has been found on a bread knife!!!


Candace Dempsey ‏@Candace_Dempsey 1h
Amanda Knox DNA found on bread knife she used for cooking. So what? #AmandaKnox #Mereditkercher..

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

And now we come full circle: That it is Sollecito's lawyer saying it's "indicative of Amanda Knox's profile" is what strikes me. Note: It has not been confirmed, but still, is there some distancing going on?
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Offline Aranavachi


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Michael wrote:
Candace Dempsey is out there lying to the world on Twitter, declaring Knox's DNA has been found on a bread knife!!!


Candace Dempsey ‏@Candace_Dempsey 1h
Amanda Knox DNA found on bread knife she used for cooking. So what? #AmandaKnox #Mereditkercher..


Does she understand that a bread knife looks like this:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q= ... 3373066656

(I dont know how to attach an image) - I really wish i could twitter her an image of a bread knife and the murder weapon. Not that she would understand, but maybe those reading her tweets could see the blatant lie which underlies her every move in this case!
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Offline Itchy Brother


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Michael wrote:
Candace Dempsey is out there lying to the world on Twitter, declaring Knox's DNA has been found on a bread knife!!!


Candace Dempsey ‏@Candace_Dempsey 1h
Amanda Knox DNA found on bread knife she used for cooking. So what? #AmandaKnox #Mereditkercher..


LOL. The food blogger doesn't know the difference between a bread knife and a chef's knife.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Stan wrote:
IF its Amanda's DNA that has been found and confirmed on the knife, doesn't that indicate that the first tests on the knife were accurate and not a result of contamination as they also found Amanda's DNA? If Amandas has been verified by two seperate departments, that would have to add 'value' to the correctness of the first tests, and to the correct finding of DNA attributed to Meredith.



I think so too Stan

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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Andrea Vogt tweeted the following:

"Leaks suggest DNA on knife shows #amandaknox genetic profile, but there is another profile being studied. Too early to interpret."

https://twitter.com/andreavogt
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Offline Iodine


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Aranavachi wrote:

(I dont know how to attach an image)


Typing freestyle:

[ img ] PictureURL.jpg [ /img ] (minus all the spaces)

Or hit the Preview button instead of submit to call up the full post composition editor with all the tags pre-loaded. Click the img button to produce the end tags, and paste the picture URL between them.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Hi, Itchy Brother! Always glad to see my favorite avatar!
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Aranavachi wrote:
Its interesting to hear your experience with TJMK, I was always very well received there and Pete was always very kind. Having said that, my login hasnt worked for quite sometime and I did email Pete about it and never heard back...this was after a big disagreement with the Machine. Internet politics is a strange phenomenon for me, truly I think I am net-socially inept!


I don't recall us having a big disagreement. What was it about?
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Offline Iodine


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Napia5 wrote:
Hi, Itchy Brother! Always glad to see my favorite avatar!


I agree!
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:15 pm   Post subject: Re: At PMF.org -- paranoia is thick!   

Aranavachi wrote:
zorba wrote:
Aranavachi wrote:
In regards to your question I believe that strictly speaking they are right, however there is always the possibility that Cassation will pass back down to another appeal court (as far as I have understood Italian law).




After this appeal which is not something that actually can be classed as a second appeal but THE appeal as the other was made void, there is the Supreme Court, and the ruling made by the latter, is the final ruling.

It cannot be passed back down, you've misunderstood that.

If this court finds her guilty and the Supreme sees no points of law have been incorrectly applied, ignored, etc, then if that Supreme Court upholds the ruling, there can be no more appealing.


America has signed up to respecting the sovereignty of certain countries, Italy is one of these, this means it is obliged to respect its laws.

If this case had involved separate trials, then the concept of fouble jeapoardy ciould be brought up, because this would mean that if a ruling made on the basis of two separate trials tried the sanme person twice, double jeopardy would apply, but this case has had no such two trials no matter what those who are ignorant of law write in their online papers, this is all one trial, on the basis of a singletrial, ongoing and going through its different processes, America cannot refuse to hand Knox over, because there is no basis for it according to International law, which means in relationship to the treaties America and Italy have with each other, Italy has not tried Knox twice, the press writing tried again all the time does not make the process of appeals in different trials.

To refuse to extradite Knoxon the basis of there were separate trials, would mean America fails ro recognise Italy's sovereignty, and that is not something taken likely, because Italy only has to show that Knox and Sollecito were not tried twice according to the concept of trial finished with, then new trial set up, that was never the case, so then America would be proved wrong.

Had the case been finalised, the appeals process run through, Supreme court declaring the release and not guilty verdict final, only to reopen the case 3 years later, then America could refuse to extradite, and America could also grant Sollecito asylum as could other countries on the basis that Sollecito was being tried twice, but he is not and neither is Knox.

At the moment the Hellmann court released the pair, Hellmann knew this was only part of the ongoing same court trial, he never said she is free to go forever, so countries writing things according to the little bit of law they understand of their own country has absolutely no relevance, and the thing is, Knox's family knew too that the release was never just going to be the end of it, as it was only one part of the whole, and the whole is not complete until all segments have been inserted.
Just because American and British papers and news shows knew and know nothing (and do not care to look properly) of Italian law, announcing overturned as if THAT is IT, has no eaffect, only in the minds of those who like to write uninformed nonsense.

To create the idea of it having been FINAL is something Knox and even Sollecito's families have been glad to do, to stir up mayhem, knowing the facts full well themselves.

So for PR reasons, the thinking/strategy has been:

1) Let's have everyone imagine, hey, they've been released, as in released end of.

2) If Hellmann had said guilty, then it would have been Knox and Sollecito claiming the right to appeal, they would never have been shouting from the rooftops that it is unfair.
They are just trying to misuse the laws to suit their situation by creating impressions hoping that swaying public opinion can override any court proceedings.

3) The strategy has been to create the impression that having the ruling by the first court overturned means it is final.
However, that part of the process was a matter of general practice.
Generating the idea/giving people the impression that it was final leaves them with the opportunity to create further media mayhem, we can say, hey, look at that bad Italy, releasing them retrying them.
Those crazy third world judges are going to try them again, poor things.


I do understand that there is no double jeopardy as I pointed out and in line to your statement I mentioned that the Supreme Court may pass the case back down if it is not satisfied with any of the elements which it needs to confirm in order for the verdict to be final.

On an aside I was hypothesizing that AK may be laying the grounds for avoiding extradition due to mental health. I know of a case where extradition from the UK to South Africa was delayed (is delayed?) due to the accused claiming PTSD and severe depression etc. However this is because he is unable to stand trial in that state which would be a factual distinction with this case - where Knox would be extradited already convicted and not to stand trial. Also of course this is US and Italy and not UK and South Africa. I am not aware of the laws, but in short I was pondering the possibility of using mental illness as an argument against extradition.


Hi Aran,

Yes, I see.

I know the case involving the Indian guy, grown up in Britain I think, from a very wealthy family, and the lady of Indian origin grown up in Sweden, who was murdered and who he was on honeymoon with in South Africa, the difference with Knox is, he has been the way he is now, all the time after the murder, it's a bit of stretch for Knox to suddenly come out with, I'm thoroughly mentally disturbed, after all she's been up to/capable of, studying, writing books, going on Telly, etc., people who are saying or not even saying, displaying, all the signs of someone cracking up, do not do those things.

Seems to me that the Supreme Court was fully aware of the actual circumstances, important elements, and drew up their recommendations in order to ensure that the court has no excuse to act in non-compliance with the rules that are always there to start with anyhow, but that the Supreme Court has not defined, there's just no way the appeal court cold ignore the rules. I reckon if they do, they'll be in serious danger of winding up in prison themselves.

It was an awful thing the day the pair were released.

What I'm wondering is where Sollecito is right now, you know what, it wouldn't surprise me if he packed his bag and moved again, trying this time not to be found, even more than he did on the island there, I think he didn't expect to be found there, somehow Oggi did find him but, if he was so upset at that why would he immediately talk to them.

He could be up to anything right now, like paying to get smuggled into a country, rather than go over any official borders or arrive at any airports, I really do bet he is up to something, trying at least to become invisible.

My guess is he'll do just about anything to make sure he does not have to go back to prison, if it goes bad for him, he is not going to want to be findable, he wants to be gone before anything even happens and should it turn out he gets off then he can come out of hiding, no way will he attend court I do not believe it, if he were to attend court and hope to leave afterwards, it may well be that the court or demands that he be detained, because there is too much chance he will flee, and he will by now have realised this and that is why he will not be attending court, no way will he risk it.

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Last edited by zorba on Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline tamale


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Itchy Brother wrote:
Michael wrote:
Candace Dempsey is out there lying to the world on Twitter, declaring Knox's DNA has been found on a bread knife!!!


Candace Dempsey ‏@Candace_Dempsey 1h
Amanda Knox DNA found on bread knife she used for cooking. So what? #AmandaKnox #Mereditkercher..


LOL. The food blogger doesn't know the difference between a bread knife and a chef's knife.


Chuckle
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

The Machine wrote:
Andrea Vogt tweeted the following:

"Leaks suggest DNA on knife shows #amandaknox genetic profile, but there is another profile being studied. Too early to interpret."

https://twitter.com/andreavogt


Thanks TM, that explains a lot. So, we are talking about TWO different samples are in the process of being tested.

No wonder this case is so bloody confusing for people!

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Itchy Brother wrote:
Michael wrote:
Candace Dempsey is out there lying to the world on Twitter, declaring Knox's DNA has been found on a bread knife!!!


Candace Dempsey ‏@Candace_Dempsey 1h
Amanda Knox DNA found on bread knife she used for cooking. So what? #AmandaKnox #Mereditkercher..


LOL. The food blogger doesn't know the difference between a bread knife and a chef's knife.



Hi Itchy. Well, we know Dempsey knows the difference very well. She's just a bloody liar. The purpose of her lie is as always, to obfuscate and spin to the general public like the cheap shameless little shill that she is.

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

The Machine wrote:
Andrea Vogt tweeted the following:

"Leaks suggest DNA on knife shows #amandaknox genetic profile, but there is another profile being studied. Too early to interpret."

https://twitter.com/andreavogt


And h/t to Jools who pointed out on DotOrg the amount tested today was 2 picograms of material, (but the sample is 120!) So, it's still early days, and we have been mislead by an early, now withdrawn (I am told) tweet, and perhaps misleading leaks from the Sollecito defense team. Didn't Giulia Bongiorno laek the C&V report early?
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Unofficial translation from the above article placed by Nell


The analysis of the third trace on the knife: it is from Amanda.


Tests made by the Scientific Investigations Department of Rome (hereinafter referred to as RIS) do not call into question either Sollecito or Guede.

The lawyer Maori: "I am satisfied, it's a foregone conclusion. That is not the murder weapon.

In the second appeal of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito the genetic analysis returns to the foreground.

The RIS of Rome has analysed the trace on the knife - the murder weapon according to the reconstruction of the prosecution - that had already been identified between handle and blade in the first appeal process but so far hadn't been examined, unlike the other two (one on the handle and the other on the blade).

The genetic profile extracted can be traced back only to Amanda Knox.

The inspection was carried out on the basis of the request from the judges asking the expert to investigate in order to ascertain the possible presence of DNA belonging to Meredith or Rudy Guede.

The trace examined was located at the intersection between handle and blade (the knife was then 'open').

The quantification of the extract returned a DNA of 2 picograms.


A quantity that would have been "too low" to proceed further under the old techniques, but which has now been possible to analyse and attributed to Knox. The technical assessment, conducted between the parties, began yesterday and ended today with a second examination as cross test (check).

Among the first reactions, that of the lawyer Luca Maori, a lawyer for Raffaele Sollecito. "I am satisfied with the outcome, which could only be that," says Maori alluding to the fact that Amanda had already been given - without challenge - the traces found on the handle of the knife and would therefore be "obvious that the finger finishes (is held) close to the intersection."

In other words, the result of the trace analysed was not the continuation of the one already examined previously," and that "the attribution to Knox is normal in relation to a knife that was found in Sollecito's house and that the girl may have touched and used multiple times like other knives that were there. "In short, for Maori it is "clear that the knife is not the murder weapon because, firstly, it is incompatible with the wounds inflicted upon the poor Meredith."

It is expected that the outcome of the expert opinion on the knife will be discussed on the 6th of November 2013 at the Court of Assizes of Appeal of Florence.

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Last edited by zorba on Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:15 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

The judge reserved all rights to order further tests.

He may demand that the knife be entirely opened up, because Sollecito may say he never used his knives but the judge cannot know and may deduce it's strange that there's no trace of him on the knife but plenty from Knox, seeing as how this was a minute amount that could not have been easily identified using older techniques, the judge may order that the knife is thoroughly examined and then using the newer techniques, because Meredith's DNA should not be on that knife but it clearly was, don't worry about Moari, he sounds like the guy who always got the sixes and had to work real hard to get them, yes, not the sharpest tool to come out of the box with this above, I mean of course he is going to say that, he can SAY it is not the murder weapon, but a knife that could never have Meredith's DNA on it, but does, is a sure sign that it IS the murder weapon.

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Last edited by zorba on Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Thanks for the translation, Zorba!!! :)

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

And Sollecito, I mean as though it wasn't already bad enough, his lie all that time back, so early on, the excuse about the DNA on the knife, I accidentally pricked her and she said no problem, the lie the excuse that nobody believed to start with but what does he do? He makes it worse by lying about the first lie, making yet another lie up, a lie on top of a lie and it still sounds awful.

The person who got that out of him did really well, and took him off guard.

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Last edited by zorba on Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Michael wrote:
Thanks for the translation, Zorba!!! :)



You're welcome Michael, thank you too for one thing to begin with, for having such a good memory, don't know how you do it.

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Offline DoctorRadias


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Someone posted a "anon letter to HellmannCourt and local newspaper.Obviously from a Lab worker"

Turns out that Sollecito made the document.

Attachment:
Sollecito doc.JPG


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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Offline Aranavachi


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Iodine wrote:
Aranavachi wrote:

(I dont know how to attach an image)


Typing freestyle:

[ img ] PictureURL.jpg [ /img ] (minus all the spaces)

Or hit the Preview button instead of submit to call up the full post composition editor with all the tags pre-loaded. Click the img button to produce the end tags, and paste the picture URL between them.


Thanks very much! :) I will give it a try
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 12:05 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Michael wrote:
Candace Dempsey is out there lying to the world on Twitter, declaring Knox's DNA has been found on a bread knife!!!


Candace Dempsey ‏@Candace_Dempsey 1h
Amanda Knox DNA found on bread knife she used for cooking. So what? #AmandaKnox #Mereditkercher..


I am wondering when a bread knife could be useful for cooking purposes? A bread knife is not good for anything else than slicing bread.

In Candace Dempsey latest article though she announces that Meredith's DNA has not been found on the knife. Read the article, now all of a sudden the knife is described as a "butcher knife". I'm thinking "cleaver" now.

Good News for Amanda Knox: Victim's DNA not found on knife
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Offline DoctorRadias


Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:38 pm

Posts: 37

PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 12:11 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Aranavachi wrote:
Iodine wrote:
Aranavachi wrote:

(I dont know how to attach an image)


Typing freestyle:

[ img ] PictureURL.jpg [ /img ] (minus all the spaces)

Or hit the Preview button instead of submit to call up the full post composition editor with all the tags pre-loaded. Click the img button to produce the end tags, and paste the picture URL between them.


Thanks very much! :) I will give it a try



There is a upload attachment tool at the bottom of the page when you hit Reply

Choose your file, upload, then click "place inline", submit your post have a cup of tea and pat yourself on the back for being a successful poster :D yay

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Offline Aranavachi


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Posts: 88

PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 12:11 am   Post subject: Re: At PMF.org -- paranoia is thick!   

zorba wrote:
Aranavachi wrote:
zorba wrote:
Aranavachi wrote:
In regards to your question I believe that strictly speaking they are right, however there is always the possibility that Cassation will pass back down to another appeal court (as far as I have understood Italian law).




After this appeal which is not something that actually can be classed as a second appeal but THE appeal as the other was made void, there is the Supreme Court, and the ruling made by the latter, is the final ruling.

It cannot be passed back down, you've misunderstood that.

If this court finds her guilty and the Supreme sees no points of law have been incorrectly applied, ignored, etc, then if that Supreme Court upholds the ruling, there can be no more appealing.


America has signed up to respecting the sovereignty of certain countries, Italy is one of these, this means it is obliged to respect its laws.

If this case had involved separate trials, then the concept of fouble jeapoardy ciould be brought up, because this would mean that if a ruling made on the basis of two separate trials tried the sanme person twice, double jeopardy would apply, but this case has had no such two trials no matter what those who are ignorant of law write in their online papers, this is all one trial, on the basis of a singletrial, ongoing and going through its different processes, America cannot refuse to hand Knox over, because there is no basis for it according to International law, which means in relationship to the treaties America and Italy have with each other, Italy has not tried Knox twice, the press writing tried again all the time does not make the process of appeals in different trials.

To refuse to extradite Knoxon the basis of there were separate trials, would mean America fails ro recognise Italy's sovereignty, and that is not something taken likely, because Italy only has to show that Knox and Sollecito were not tried twice according to the concept of trial finished with, then new trial set up, that was never the case, so then America would be proved wrong.

Had the case been finalised, the appeals process run through, Supreme court declaring the release and not guilty verdict final, only to reopen the case 3 years later, then America could refuse to extradite, and America could also grant Sollecito asylum as could other countries on the basis that Sollecito was being tried twice, but he is not and neither is Knox.

At the moment the Hellmann court released the pair, Hellmann knew this was only part of the ongoing same court trial, he never said she is free to go forever, so countries writing things according to the little bit of law they understand of their own country has absolutely no relevance, and the thing is, Knox's family knew too that the release was never just going to be the end of it, as it was only one part of the whole, and the whole is not complete until all segments have been inserted.
Just because American and British papers and news shows knew and know nothing (and do not care to look properly) of Italian law, announcing overturned as if THAT is IT, has no eaffect, only in the minds of those who like to write uninformed nonsense.

To create the idea of it having been FINAL is something Knox and even Sollecito's families have been glad to do, to stir up mayhem, knowing the facts full well themselves.

So for PR reasons, the thinking/strategy has been:

1) Let's have everyone imagine, hey, they've been released, as in released end of.

2) If Hellmann had said guilty, then it would have been Knox and Sollecito claiming the right to appeal, they would never have been shouting from the rooftops that it is unfair.
They are just trying to misuse the laws to suit their situation by creating impressions hoping that swaying public opinion can override any court proceedings.

3) The strategy has been to create the impression that having the ruling by the first court overturned means it is final.
However, that part of the process was a matter of general practice.
Generating the idea/giving people the impression that it was final leaves them with the opportunity to create further media mayhem, we can say, hey, look at that bad Italy, releasing them retrying them.
Those crazy third world judges are going to try them again, poor things.


I do understand that there is no double jeopardy as I pointed out and in line to your statement I mentioned that the Supreme Court may pass the case back down if it is not satisfied with any of the elements which it needs to confirm in order for the verdict to be final.

On an aside I was hypothesizing that AK may be laying the grounds for avoiding extradition due to mental health. I know of a case where extradition from the UK to South Africa was delayed (is delayed?) due to the accused claiming PTSD and severe depression etc. However this is because he is unable to stand trial in that state which would be a factual distinction with this case - where Knox would be extradited already convicted and not to stand trial. Also of course this is US and Italy and not UK and South Africa. I am not aware of the laws, but in short I was pondering the possibility of using mental illness as an argument against extradition.


Hi Aran,

Yes, I see.

I know the case involving the Indian guy, grown up in Britain I think, from a very wealthy family, and the lady of Indian origin grown up in Sweden, who was murdered and who he was on honeymoon with in South Africa, the difference with Knox is, he has been the way he is now, all the time after the murder, it's a bit of stretch for Knox to suddenly come out with, I'm thoroughly mentally disturbed, after all she's been up to/capable of, studying, writing books, going on Telly, etc., people who are saying or not even saying, displaying, all the signs of someone cracking up, do not do those things.

Seems to me that the Supreme Court was fully aware of the actual circumstances, important elements, and drew up their recommendations in order to ensure that the court has no excuse to act in non-compliance with the rules that are always there to start with anyhow, but that the Supreme Court has not defined, there's just no way the appeal court cold ignore the rules. I reckon if they do, they'll be in serious danger of winding up in prison themselves.

It was an awful thing the day the pair were released.

What I'm wondering is where Sollecito is right now, you know what, it wouldn't surprise me if he packed his bag and moved again, trying this time not to be found, even more than he did on the island there, I think he didn't expect to be found there, somehow Oggi did find him but, if he was so upset at that why would he immediately talk to them.

He could be up to anything right now, like paying to get smuggled into a country, rather than go over any official borders or arrive at any airports, I really do bet he is up to something, trying at least to become invisible.

My guess is he'll do just about anything to make sure he does not have to go back to prison, if it goes bad for him, he is not going to want to be findable, he wants to be gone before anything even happens and should it turn out he gets off then he can come out of hiding, no way will he attend court I do not believe it, if he were to attend court and hope to leave afterwards, it may well be that the court or demands that he be detained, because there is too much chance he will flee, and he will by now have realised this and that is why he will not be attending court, no way will he risk it.


Hi Zorba,

That is exactly the case I was thinking about. I do see the material differences in the case, but AK has been coming out with all these PTSD stories hard for a little while now and I cant help think it is laying the ground for something...

Im with you on RS, I dont see him showing up in court. I think his father's insistence that he is coming is so that he does not become involved as an accomplice helping his son flee. He is keeping up appearances...? RS is helpless though, he wont hold up well without friends, family and 'fame'! His father used to call him several times a day, he is clearly attached and wont fend well without all the attention that he thrives on at the moment. Probably the attention seeking is why he gave the Oggi interview, even though he was 'mad' at them.

It was an awful lapse of justice releasing the two....
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Offline DoctorRadias


Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:38 pm

Posts: 37

PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 12:14 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Nell wrote:
Michael wrote:
Candace Dempsey is out there lying to the world on Twitter, declaring Knox's DNA has been found on a bread knife!!!


Candace Dempsey ‏@Candace_Dempsey 1h
Amanda Knox DNA found on bread knife she used for cooking. So what? #AmandaKnox #Mereditkercher..


I am wondering when a bread knife could be useful for cooking purposes? A bread knife is not good for anything else than slicing bread.

In Candace Dempsey latest article though she announces that Meredith's DNA has not been found on the knife. Read the article, now all of a sudden the knife is described as a "butcher knife". I'm thinking "cleaver" now.

Good News for Amanda Knox: Victim's DNA not found on knife



Lets not forget that this DNA is what V&C/team knoxious referred to as starch!

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Offline Aranavachi


User avatar


Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:14 pm

Posts: 88

PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 12:19 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

DoctorRadias wrote:
Aranavachi wrote:
Iodine wrote:
Aranavachi wrote:

(I dont know how to attach an image)


Typing freestyle:

[ img ] PictureURL.jpg [ /img ] (minus all the spaces)

Or hit the Preview button instead of submit to call up the full post composition editor with all the tags pre-loaded. Click the img button to produce the end tags, and paste the picture URL between them.


Thanks very much! :) I will give it a try



There is a upload attachment tool at the bottom of the page when you hit Reply

Choose your file, upload, then click "place inline", submit your post have a cup of tea and pat yourself on the back for being a successful poster :D yay



Yay! Thanks - this is very useful. Now I just have to wait for the opportune moment to test it ;)
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Offline Nell

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Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:38 pm

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 12:24 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

DoctorRadias wrote:
Someone posted a "anon letter to HellmannCourt and local newspaper.Obviously from a Lab worker"

Turns out that Sollecito made the document.

Attachment:
Sollecito doc.JPG


How embarrassing! User Annella tweets this anonymous letter non-stop on Twitter. Busted again.
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Offline DoctorRadias


Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:38 pm

Posts: 37

PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 12:29 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Nell wrote:
DoctorRadias wrote:
Someone posted a "anon letter to HellmannCourt and local newspaper.Obviously from a Lab worker"

Turns out that Sollecito made the document.

Attachment:
Sollecito doc.JPG


How embarrassing! User Annella tweets this anonymous letter non-stop on Twitter. Busted again.


The same person runs loads of facebook pages such as "Meredith Kercher Truths", and writes vile comments on IA, a completely nasty piece of work if ever I saw one.

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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 12:47 am   Post subject: Re: At PMF.org -- paranoia is thick!   

zorba wrote:
--- snip ---

What I'm wondering is where Sollecito is right now, you know what, it wouldn't surprise me if he packed his bag and moved again, trying this time not to be found, even more than he did on the island there, I think he didn't expect to be found there, somehow Oggi did find him but, if he was so upset at that why would he immediately talk to them.

--- snap ---


Many have wondered about this. I think the answer is rather simple. He needs them. He cannot afford to reject them.
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Offline Napia5


User avatar


Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:23 pm

Posts: 1893

PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 1:01 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Nell wrote:
Michael wrote:
Candace Dempsey is out there lying to the world on Twitter, declaring Knox's DNA has been found on a bread knife!!!


Candace Dempsey ‏@Candace_Dempsey 1h
Amanda Knox DNA found on bread knife she used for cooking. So what? #AmandaKnox #Mereditkercher..


I am wondering when a bread knife could be useful for cooking purposes? A bread knife is not good for anything else than slicing bread.

In Candace Dempsey latest article though she announces that Meredith's DNA has not been found on the knife. Read the article, now all of a sudden the knife is described as a "butcher knife". I'm thinking "cleaver" now.

Good News for Amanda Knox: Victim's DNA not found on knife


I've been trying to find her food blog lately, to see if she cooks like she writes. I can't find it anywhere.
It's called ""The Italian Woman Under the Table", or something like that.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 1:14 am   Post subject: Re: At PMF.org -- paranoia is thick!   

Nell wrote:
zorba wrote:
--- snip ---

What I'm wondering is where Sollecito is right now, you know what, it wouldn't surprise me if he packed his bag and moved again, trying this time not to be found, even more than he did on the island there, I think he didn't expect to be found there, somehow Oggi did find him but, if he was so upset at that why would he immediately talk to them.

--- snap ---


Many have wondered about this. I think the answer is rather simple. He needs them. He cannot afford to reject them.


It's sadder then that. He "thinks" he needs them. When actually, he needs them like he needs a hole in his head. Their using the media in this way at this time (and the media using them) is an exercise in self-destruction. It's like wayching a train wreck in slow motion.

_________________
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THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 1:58 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Nell wrote:
This photo taken in Carla Vechiotti's lab the day she 'tested' the knife is probably a good indication from where the sample was taken: from the blade, close to the handle.



And some person who's very good at finding this sort of thing (not me, alas) found this metadata as well from the knife photos:


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 2:34 am   Post subject: Re: At PMF.org -- paranoia is thick!   

Michael wrote:
Nell wrote:
zorba wrote:
--- snip ---

What I'm wondering is where Sollecito is right now, you know what, it wouldn't surprise me if he packed his bag and moved again, trying this time not to be found, even more than he did on the island there, I think he didn't expect to be found there, somehow Oggi did find him but, if he was so upset at that why would he immediately talk to them.

--- snap ---


Many have wondered about this. I think the answer is rather simple. He needs them. He cannot afford to reject them.


It's sadder then that. He "thinks" he needs them. When actually, he needs them like he needs a hole in his head. Their using the media in this way at this time (and the media using them) is an exercise in self-destruction. It's like wayching a train wreck in slow motion.


He learned that from the Knox family. They have used the media since day one and he has complained a few times that he was only a footnote, not of major public interest.

I am not sure he would have chosen to have a presence in the media and to write a book if it wasn't that he is somewhat trying to compete with Saint Amanda.
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 3:45 am   Post subject: Open letter revealed to have been written by Raffaele Sollec   

DoctorRadias wrote:
Someone posted a "anon letter to HellmannCourt and local newspaper.Obviously from a Lab worker"

Turns out that Sollecito made the document.



Thanks for making us aware of this Doctor Radias. It's an excellent find.

The "anonymous" letter from a "lab technician" has been published on Raffaele Sollecito's website under the category "Notizie". The document can be found via the link named Lettera Corte D'Apello or its English translation named Letter to Appeal Court: are the police laboratories cerfied [sic] for protocols?.

Image

Image

This fake document was posted on Raffaele Sollecito's facebook page and reproduced by RoseMontague on IIP. Since then Knox and Sollecito's supporters like Annella have used this document as further proof that Patrizia Stefanoni did not adhere to protocols when she tested the evidence items in her lab, a pretty ridiculous claim.

[Click on the image below to make it bigger]

Image

If you search Google for that "open letter" addressed to Corriere Dell'Umbria, you will come up empty handed. All that can be found with regards to this letter is Raffaele Sollecito's blog, Bruce Fischer's forum Injustice in Perugia and PMF who wondered where this letter came from.

Now we know. A look at the metadata shows both documents have been written by Raffaele Sollecito, on his Mac using the program Pages. He seems to not have used Pages in the days between writing the Italian fake letter and translating it to English, because the provisional name for the document given by the text processor was "Untitled" with a consecutive number, 2 and 3.

Also, the letter is dated from 2011, but it was in fact written only in 2013. Before Raffaele Sollecito published it on his Facebook page and blog, nobody had ever heard of it.

I don't believe a career in the computer industry is on the cards for Sollecito.


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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:28 am   Post subject: Re: At PMF.org -- paranoia is thick!   

Aranavachi wrote:
zorba wrote:
Aranavachi wrote:
zorba wrote:
Aranavachi wrote:
In regards to your question I believe that strictly speaking they are right, however there is always the possibility that Cassation will pass back down to another appeal court (as far as I have understood Italian law).


After this appeal which is not something that actually can be classed as a second appeal but THE appeal as the other was made void, there is the Supreme Court, and the ruling made by the latter, is the final ruling.

It cannot be passed back down, you've misunderstood that.

If this court finds her guilty and the Supreme sees no points of law have been incorrectly applied, ignored, etc, then if that Supreme Court upholds the ruling, there can be no more appealing.


America has signed up to respecting the sovereignty of certain countries, Italy is one of these, this means it is obliged to respect its laws.

If this case had involved separate trials, then the concept of fouble jeapoardy ciould be brought up, because this would mean that if a ruling made on the basis of two separate trials tried the sanme person twice, double jeopardy would apply, but this case has had no such two trials no matter what those who are ignorant of law write in their online papers, this is all one trial, on the basis of a single trial, ongoing and going through its different processes, America cannot refuse to hand Knox over, because there is no basis for it according to International law, which means in relationship to the treaties America and Italy have with each other, Italy has not tried Knox twice, the press writing tried again all the time does not make the process of appeals in different trials.

To refuse to extradite Knox on the basis of there were separate trials, would mean America fails ro recognise Italy's sovereignty, and that is not something taken likely, because Italy only has to show that Knox and Sollecito were not tried twice according to the concept of trial finished with, then new trial set up, that was never the case, so then America would be proved wrong.

Had the case been finalised, the appeals process run through, Supreme court declaring the release and not guilty verdict final, only to reopen the case 3 years later, then America could refuse to extradite, and America could also grant Sollecito asylum as could other countries on the basis that Sollecito was being tried twice, but he is not and neither is Knox.

At the moment the Hellmann court released the pair, Hellmann knew this was only part of the ongoing same court trial, he never said she is free to go forever, so countries writing things according to the little bit of law they understand of their own country has absolutely no relevance, and the thing is, Knox's family knew too that the release was never just going to be the end of it, as it was only one part of the whole, and the whole is not complete until all segments have been inserted.
Just because American and British papers and news shows knew and know nothing (and do not care to look properly) of Italian law, announcing overturned as if THAT is IT, has no affect, only in the minds of those who like to write uninformed nonsense.

To create the idea of it having been FINAL is something Knox and even Sollecito's families have been glad to do, to stir up mayhem, knowing the facts full well themselves.

So for PR reasons, the thinking/strategy has been:

1) Let's have everyone imagine, hey, they've been released, as in released end of.

2) If Hellmann had said guilty, then it would have been Knox and Sollecito claiming the right to appeal, they would never have been shouting from the rooftops that it is unfair.
They are just trying to misuse the laws to suit their situation by creating impressions hoping that swaying public opinion can override any court proceedings.

3) The strategy has been to create the impression that having the ruling by the first court overturned means it is final.
However, that part of the process was a matter of general practice.
Generating the idea/giving people the impression that it was final leaves them with the opportunity to create further media mayhem, we can say, hey, look at that bad Italy, releasing them retrying them.
Those crazy third world judges are going to try them again, poor things.


I do understand that there is no double jeopardy as I pointed out and in line to your statement I mentioned that the Supreme Court may pass the case back down if it is not satisfied with any of the elements which it needs to confirm in order for the verdict to be final.

On an aside I was hypothesizing that AK may be laying the grounds for avoiding extradition due to mental health. I know of a case where extradition from the UK to South Africa was delayed (is delayed?) due to the accused claiming PTSD and severe depression etc. However this is because he is unable to stand trial in that state which would be a factual distinction with this case - where Knox would be extradited already convicted and not to stand trial. Also of course this is US and Italy and not UK and South Africa. I am not aware of the laws, but in short I was pondering the possibility of using mental illness as an argument against extradition.


Hi Aran,

Yes, I see.

I know the case involving the Indian guy, grown up in Britain I think, from a very wealthy family, and the lady of Indian origin grown up in Sweden, who was murdered and who he was on honeymoon with in South Africa, the difference with Knox is, he has been the way he is now, all the time after the murder, it's a bit of stretch for Knox to suddenly come out with, I'm thoroughly mentally disturbed, after all she's been up to/capable of, studying, writing books, going on Telly, etc., people who are saying or not even saying, displaying, all the signs of someone cracking up, do not do those things.

Seems to me that the Supreme Court was fully aware of the actual circumstances, important elements, and drew up their recommendations in order to ensure that the court has no excuse to act in non-compliance with the rules that are always there to start with anyhow, but that the Supreme Court has not defined, there's just no way the appeal court cold ignore the rules. I reckon if they do, they'll be in serious danger of winding up in prison themselves.

It was an awful thing; the day the pair were released.

What I'm wondering is where Sollecito is right now, you know what, it wouldn't surprise me if he packed his bag and moved again, trying this time not to be found, even more than he did on the island there, I think he didn't expect to be found there, somehow Oggi did find him but, if he was so upset at that why would he immediately talk to them.

He could be up to anything right now, like paying to get smuggled into a country, rather than go over any official borders or arrive at any airports, I really do bet he is up to something, trying at least to become invisible.

My guess is he'll do just about anything to make sure he does not have to go back to prison, if it goes bad for him, he is not going to want to be findable, he wants to be gone before anything even happens and should it turn out he gets off then he can come out of hiding, no way will he attend court I do not believe it, if he were to attend court and hope to leave afterwards, it may well be that the court or demands that he be detained, because there is too much chance he will flee, and he will by now have realised this and that is why he will not be attending court, no way will he risk it.


Hi Zorba,

That is exactly the case I was thinking about. I do see the material differences in the case, but AK has been coming out with all these PTSD stories hard for a little while now and I cant help think it is laying the ground for something...

Im with you on RS, I dont see him showing up in court. I think his father's insistence that he is coming is so that he does not become involved as an accomplice helping his son flee. He is keeping up appearances...? RS is helpless though, he wont hold up well without friends, family and 'fame'! His father used to call him several times a day, he is clearly attached and wont fend well without all the attention that he thrives on at the moment. Probably the attention seeking is why he gave the Oggi interview, even though he was 'mad' at them.

It was an awful lapse of justice releasing the two....



Only with the case in South Africa, I cannot imagine someone (him) taking a taxi then immediately asking the driver if he fancies murdering his wife, how nuts is that!!!

It's like you go for a meal in a country, in a town, in a place you know nothing about, with your other half, the waiter brings you bread, and a couple of menus, yiou go to the WC, and on the way, you ask that waiter if he fancies murdering your date.

I think it's mad.
How could someone risk doing things that way, out of the plane, do not not anyone, immediattely ask fior such a thing, what a risk, risk that the person asked will tell on you.

That man would have had to have been insane to do things that way.
Aoprt from being insane to want to di it anyhow, of course.

I know they weren't getting on, but me, I don't see that case as similar to Knox and Sollecito's.


About Sollecito, yes, agree for hisdad, but also so that he can bide his time hoping the case will go his way but in the meantime not have the court think he is on the run already and has stuff to hide, only, shooting off rto a wee island with a terrible record on human rights, people and children trafficking, where there is so much poverty that half the population winds up prostituting somewhere around the world, where police regularly beat people up, murder people, so, let's say, a bastion of great things, NOT, and Sollecito in disparaging tones, constantly criticising his own country but then in a shouty your mouth off kind of way, typical of his ex other half's lot, and he presenting no real evidence, presenting nothing with which to underpin his claims against his loved ones, NOT, I meant er fellow country folk/the law, and everyone else he has atrempted to belittle when he would know full well what is what about Italian law, he was not born yesterday though I have my doubts when observing what he has been up to, every single move he makes looks so weak/is so weak, all of his claims against prosecutors and everyone else are not actually criticism but here we go again, he thinks he is allowed while on trial for murder to commit character assassination, the assassination part probably ties into his line of thinking.

Yet how stupid could one person be, he is not Knox, he cannot pretend he did not know this and did not know that, his acts will be viewed as even worse than those by Knox, as they are not in Italy going to be swallowing his claims later that he did not man it and had not thought about the consequences and had not actually meant it; he was lying on a beach and it came in his minsd.... but it never happened.

Oh yes they'll love him won't they.

When you've told a bad lie and everyone can see it is one, the best thing to do is shut up and hope, that it is forgotten, only in his case, it never was going to be as it is a most important element, him making up nonsensical tales about pricking the murder victim and being told it is not a problem.

I cannot remember ever being hurt by anyone by accident then telling them, oow ow ouch ouch ouch
Let me inform you, it is not a problem.

Mother today I accidently scalded my friend with hot water, but she told me, awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
It is not a problem.

Get real, nobody words things like this, like that.
He never pricked her.

But...... the worst bit about this tale of his from way back when, is that he made that up about pricking her, and this is hard for me to get right, but where in actual fact Meredith suffered something so much worse than a prick and it was the worst problem she would ever face in her life because it meant she died, makes this man ia shameless bastard; if it were the middle ages he would deserve to be hung drawn and quartered, stretched on the rack,
his acts after the murder,
are an insult to the collective human IQ, the biggest insult,
the cruelty involved in it, making such stuff up directly related to what really happened, where Meredith never got the chance to say ANYTHING, let alone "it is not a problem."

He is no less than a pathological, self-centred liar.

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Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
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Offline max


Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:55 am

Posts: 1564

PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:51 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

I think Maori is not stupid and feels this DNA trace could be seen as a continuation of the trace of Knox's DNA on the handle which would fit this description of the courts in the first trial. A slipping action.

Quote:
In Sollecito’s apartment, an extremely clean kitchen knife different from the other ones supplied in the house that he occupied on Corso Garibaldi was found; on the handle of this knife, in the raised portion of the handle where the blade begins, a biological trace (trace A) attributable to Knox was found: the place where the trace was found suggested that the knife had not been used in a horizontal direction, but at a certain angle, suggesting a slipping action of a hand seizing the knife to strike rather than to cut.

If this trace is indeed Knox's DNA on the blade then it does look like her hand slipped which is common when you stab someone with force. I don't think they can determine if the DNA is from blood but I suspect this could well have caused the blood found on the tap in the bathroom. This makes a bit more sense to me than a nose bleed or a ripped off ear ring. On the other hand it does mean that they missed a (probably) tiny cut on Knox's hand.
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