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XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31, 12 - MARCH 29, 13 (S)

Moderators: Nell, Ergon, Michael, Moderators


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Offline max


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:47 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

This Italian article about the upcoming airing of the movie has some more comments. It says Mediaset only received a letter with an invitation by the lawyers to air the movie in compliance with the law. Mediaset says they always do that so I am sure the broadcasting on December 3rd will go ahead as planned. Then Francesco Sollecito says RS never watches TV since his release. Francesco will not watch because he does not want to remember things. Luca Maori says it is inappropriate ("inopportuna").

http://www.lanazione.it/umbria/cronaca/ ... film.shtml
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:52 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Flash news: Francesco Sforza returned to Italy yesterday, November 29. Just to update everyone, but I'd like to focus on the news of The Meredith Kercher Fund, at least for today.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:02 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Thanks Ergon. I sure hope Frank Sfarzo has his own place; if not, it might take some time to find his idea of a 'perfect roommate.' My advice for him would be to just 'attack' it. ;)

No, seriously, my advice for FS would be to find a real job and get some professional psychological help with his anger problem.

I'm taking the liberty of reposting Nell's screen shot on this new page:

Nell wrote:
The Meredith Kercher Fund website just went online.


Image

Quote:
THE MEREDITH KERCHER FUND


The Meredith Kercher Fund Limited is a not-for-profit company which has been set up to support Meredith's case in its final steps. The Meredith Kercher Fund has been established with the help of the appropriate legal and charitable experience offered to us as in support of our situation as well as an experienced Fund Administrator who has been appointed to ensure the accountability and transparency of the funds.

The objectives of The Meredith Kercher Fund are as follows:

1.1 To ensure that the circumstances of Meredith Kercher's death are thoroughly investigated and that those directly involved as well as those who played or play any part in assisting them are identified and brought to justice; and

1.2 To provide support, including financial assistance, to Meredith Kercher's family including legal fees and associated travel costs.

2. If the above objects are fulfilled then the objects of the Foundation shall be to pursue such purposes in similar cases arising in the United Kingdom, Italy and elsewhere."


http://themeredithkercherfund.com/fund.html
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Offline piggy616


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:39 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Nell wrote:
The Meredith Kercher Fund website just went online.


Image

Quote:
THE MEREDITH KERCHER FUND


The Meredith Kercher Fund Limited is a not-for-profit company which has been set up to support Meredith's case in its final steps. The Meredith Kercher Fund has been established with the help of the appropriate legal and charitable experience offered to us as in support of our situation as well as an experienced Fund Administrator who has been appointed to ensure the accountability and transparency of the funds.

The objectives of The Meredith Kercher Fund are as follows:

1.1 To ensure that the circumstances of Meredith Kercher's death are thoroughly investigated and that those directly involved as well as those who played or play any part in assisting them are identified and brought to justice; and

1.2 To provide support, including financial assistance, to Meredith Kercher's family including legal fees and associated travel costs.

2. If the above objects are fulfilled then the objects of the Foundation shall be to pursue such purposes in similar cases arising in the United Kingdom, Italy and elsewhere."


http://themeredithkercherfund.com/fund.html[/quote]


Cross-posted to .org:

Just below it says:

"The Kercher family has not and will not use any donations as remuneration; only to support the final stages of the case which we are hoping will be finished early 2013."

I don't share this hope, because that would imply a rubber-stamp of Hellmann... :(
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:13 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

They wouldn't have filed the appeal if they hoped that. I can imagine though that they wish this was all over rather sooner than later, but above all I am pretty sure they hope for justice for Meredith. No matter how long it will take. I wouldn't read too much into it.
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Offline louiehaha


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

piggy616 wrote:

"The Kercher family has not and will not use any donations as remuneration; only to support the final stages of the case which we are hoping will be finished early 2013."

I don't share this hope, because that would imply a rubber-stamp of Hellmann... :(


I know it’s been said here that it’s not possible for the conviction to be upheld, but John Kercher wrote that is one of three possible outcomes of the appeal to the Supreme Court.
Quote:
The prosecution is now preparing an appeal to the Supreme Court in Rome. In this instance, they can only appeal on points of law. This appeal, then, will not take the form of a trial, but a review of all the documentary evidence concerned with the case. The court might uphold the acquittal decision. Equally, it might uphold the original convictions. It could even request a retrial. What had once seemed simple will now become complicated again – and now that Amanda Knox is at home in America, the situation may become political again. For if the Supreme Court upholds the convictions of the main trial, it may ask for Amanda Knox to be extradited from America back to Italy. An extradition treaty does exist between the two countries, though at this point in time it has never been implemented.

Kercher, John (2012-04-26). Meredith: Our daughter's murder and the heartbreaking quest for the truth (Kindle Locations 3732-3737). Hachette Littlehampton. Kindle Edition.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

I don't know about anyone else but I'm having a totally emotional reaction to the news of the opening of the website.
The Kerchers have lost their dear Mez, and somehow, in some small way we've found her.
It's all I can think to say.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Hello,u

As a result of almost breakdown exhaustion from work (the bright screens like Google's one, kill my eyes) tried in my state of fatigue, to write, but being that tired, could only manage referring to the state of what seems like a male bonding thing, where in the old days, guys could just sort of dictate at home, man of the house, breadwinner, dad will carve the Sunday joint thing, and never talk about pay or show the inside of his wallet, so, Spezi and then, in this light, where males use excuses to get together with their jocky-like buddies, I mean, why would they enjoy the company of other males so much (latent homo eroticism?), while most often such types are deeply homophobic and all that, so yes, there ya have Preston and boyfriend Spezi and Brucio di Bruto con un faccia di cazzo being so ''close'' with his girlfriend Frank.

Oh dear, see why I abandoned ship?

I will send this though just so I can move on...and say what I really think and want to say

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

What I really want to say, is, I have no sympathy, so read, no, not little sympathy, no sympathy... with what to my mind appears to be gullible chimps, if through some inability to study things properly, they would (and do) allow themselves to be taken in, packed and shipped off as a fool through swallowing the PR firm's conscious and targeted campaign strategy hook line and sinker, the cam,paign designed to turn Knox into the victim, when Meredith is the victim, and if this man in Canada got ripped off by yet another woman hater, then poor him and I do not care.

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Last edited by zorba on Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

louiehaha wrote:

I know it’s been said here that it’s not possible for the conviction to be upheld, but John Kercher wrote that is one of three possible outcomes of the appeal to the Supreme Court....

The prosecution is now preparing an appeal to the Supreme Court in Rome. In this instance, they can only appeal on points of law. This appeal, then, will not take the form of a trial, but a review of all the documentary evidence concerned with the case. The court might uphold the acquittal decision. Equally, it might uphold the original convictions. It could even request a retrial. What had once seemed simple will now become complicated again – and now that Amanda Knox is at home in America, the situation may become political again. For if the Supreme Court upholds the convictions of the main trial, it may ask for Amanda Knox to be extradited from America back to Italy. An extradition treaty does exist between the two countries, though at this point in time it has never been implemented.

Kercher, John (2012-04-26). Meredith: Our daughter's murder and the heartbreaking quest for the truth (Kindle Locations 3732-3737). Hachette Littlehampton. Kindle Edition.


Well, louiehaha, I've always voted for option 2 "Equally, it might uphold the original convictions." even though I might consider the possibility of the other outcomes. But the more I look at the final paragraphs of the Rudy Guede Supreme Court ruling, the more I know this: Hellmann will be stripped bare.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Flash news: Elizabeth Smart just signed a book contract with St. Martin's Press to tell her story: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ivity.html

Given that her family's book was a national best seller, one can imagine that hers would outsell, many times, the one by where's her face? :)
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ergon wrote:
Flash news: Elizabeth Smart just signed a book contract with St. Martin's Press to tell her story: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ivity.html

Given that her family's book was a national best seller, one can imagine that hers would outsell, many times, the one by where's her face? :)


What an inspirational story. I'm left wondering when it will be released. I'd like to see it released the end of March.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Note that Harper Collins released the photoshop project, er, Book Cover AFTER the announcement of Elizabeth Smart's book? ;)
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Bundling of energies

As Stephanie points too, the bad of all this, part of it, is the negativity.

That's why, one way or the other, they, Stephanie and family, want to live for the now and the future, in positive mode, which is something Stephanie made clear about Meredith, that Meredith was a complete example of, with her attitude, her helping people, etc, and need to care for others, yet all of this is deeply negative, people like beggar Frank, people who supported him and then find out he is not okay, but have they renounced their ideas, no, still supporting murderers.

Like now, what have we had here, stuff about people, very bad people, to my mind bad people, like Frank, and so many more.

So yes, we do FIGHT back, and against them, but it's hard, because one can get lost in it as it demands so much energy from a person.

Like now, with Bettina's story, okay, yes, terrible if women are abused. I can never deny that and I detest that behaviour.

Still the board has been taken over with the crap about what Frank has been doing. Okay, again, that's something that needs dealing with.

However, Bettina, was a member here, then went to a site that is in full support of what are, again to my mind if not to anyone else's, murderers, and must have absorbed so much (ignored a lot of other things too), before deciding to do so much for Frank Sfarzo.

So should I feel truly sorry for her?

My answer is no, I should not, even if abused, she has spent a lot of time helping the case against Meredith.

So again, I'm sorry but I do not really care, it's her business, and if you deal with snakes like Sfarzo and Bruce, a pair of complete arseholes, what the fuck in the world do you expect?

Don't play with fire if you do not want to burn your fingers.

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Offline max


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:31 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

I totally understand how you feel Zorba. That was my first reaction also. FS has been writing these overly aggressive articles for years now, so it is not exactly a surprise that the man really is aggressive. So then I first grabbed myself a cup of coffee and just watched how Ergon handled the case. This is where (fortunately) no human being is the same and how easy would it not have been to kick the whole bunch to the curbs and make fun of the situation? This is not what Ergon did. Never did he even mention Bettina's feelings about the case or judge her decisions. This was abuse no matter who and what, and that is what matters. I can only have the deepest respect how this was dealt with here on PMF and I admire the integrity of Ergon.

I remember one of his first admin actions was to try to bring the 2 PMF's closer together again. That action had a rocky start but if you paid attention lately then there is lots of interaction between PMF and PMF without any problems. That has a lot to do with how Ergon deals with people and just sticks to his believes. Ok, enough kudos to Ergon. You are all wonderful :mrgreen:
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:44 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

I agree, Max. Ergon's handling of this affair has been sterling and has embodied all the values PMF stands for, especially integrity, humanity and principle. But, I always saw that in him and that's exactly why I invited him to join the PMF staff. We are lucky that he accepted :)

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:48 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Where'd that come from? Well right now, we're talking about the launch of Meredith's fund, zorba. No one can make you feel sorry for someone, since that comes from inside each of us. But, in honoring Meredith, it does not mean we cannot feel sorry for each other, even those on the other side, as human beings. Bettina did nothing other than become a victim, and if she believes in one version of a murder case, that does not in itself prevent us from expressing sympathy to a member of this board. Or not, if you so wish.

But, as I once did many eons ago on .ORG, I also expressed sympathy for the Knox and Mellas families, and they did a lot that I condemn as well. Bettina, and Peter Hoemberg, did not do anything wrong compared to that, except disagree with us. As I said, no one deserves what happened to them.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:02 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Zorba, I know exactly where you are coming from. When I first saw the post concerning Bettina, and her willingness to post here, I thought to myself: Is this another troll? That gets old fast, and has nothing whatsoever to do with Meredith's story, and it's frustrating, to put it mildly. But I thought to myself, "What if?". It was almost impossible to keep my emotions out of the unfolding story, and it was really complicated by the fact that this board is for Meredith.
There were times when I was angry, too. Angry for the intrusion, for the focus being removed from our main priority, Meredith. And, how can one be sure, on the anonymous internet, that it wasn't a prank.

I was also concerned about the possibility that, if the story unfolded here, both those of us on the board, and Bettine would be exposing ourselves for the storm that followed. I'm still not sure what the whole story is, but there are things that ring true. So, for me, it was a draining week.

In that frame of mind, I clicked on yesterday to see that the countdown to Meredith's fund was now over!
Ah, I thought, finally some good news. Now, for karma.

My grandkids have a can for spare change. Every year, at Christmas, they count the fund (mostly pennies) and one is designated to come with me to our local discount store where the Salvation Army has their bucket. What a thrill it is for me to watch how solemn they are when they spill their savings into the bucket.

As it happened today, I shared with them that I was going to make a donation to the Meredith fund in their names as a Christmas gift to myself. The older ones immediately jumped on the bandwagon and asked if I would take the change and donate it too. They don't really have the details of what the Meredith fund is all about, but they know it is important to me. To say I was touched and thrilled is putting it mildly.

And then I realized that this gesture surely wouldn't be lost on the Kerchers, even though we are talking about 3 or 4 dollars. And, from all that I have read over these past two years, I believe that Meredith would have been touched also.
This is Meredith's legacy. From her to me and mine. And I'm sure that mine will pass it on too. Regardless what happens next year, or, in the years that follow, this is the true story behind Meredith. What the Kerchers have lost, in some small way, we have all found it. Had I walked away in disgust at the unsurprising story about Frank, I might have missed all that has come since. But, we can't always choose how these things come to us.

And, on that note, I would like to tell all of the Groupies, come closer, it's contagious!
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Offline piggy616


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:49 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

louiehaha wrote:
piggy616 wrote:

"The Kercher family has not and will not use any donations as remuneration; only to support the final stages of the case which we are hoping will be finished early 2013."

I don't share this hope, because that would imply a rubber-stamp of Hellmann... :(


I know it’s been said here that it’s not possible for the conviction to be upheld, but John Kercher wrote that is one of three possible outcomes of the appeal to the Supreme Court.


Thanks... I have read "Meredith", but somehow forgot he pointed this out. That would be the most desirable outcome, for sure.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:14 pm   Post subject: Sfarzogate background   

One more thing about Francesco Sforza, it is within our purview to investigate the online campaign to prevent justice for Meredith Kercher and her family. One of the players was CPJ, the "Committee To Protect Journalists" who intervened solely on the basis of allegations from his supporters. They never bothered to investigate these allegations, but issued a report which they refused to amend despite the efforts of TJMK, and both PMF's. Surprise, surprise, here is Doug Preston, a donor to CPJ along with other members of his family: http://truejustice.org/ee/images/perugi ... 4/9409.pdf

Here is then FOA spokeswoman Anne Bremner's brother, Doug Bremner, also a Knox supporter, whipping up support for CPJ's 'investigation':
https://twitter.com/dougbremner/statuse ... 7391717376

And now, kudos to brmull of .ORG for this discovery. Doug Bremner has gone into movie production, with his first movie Catania! in post production, a comedy about five sisters in Sicily who fight over their mothers antiques and furniture (!) http://www.dougbremner.com/catania.html

But it is here that it gets very interesting: Bremner is developing a movie about Meredith Kercher! http://www.dougbremner.com/projects2.html

Quote:
THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER

by Doug Bremner

Genre: Historical, Thriller

Logline: When an American student in Perugia is jailed for the murder of her English
house mate a cynical Perugian blogger must go up against a corrupt police and judicial
system in order to save the city he loves.


Synopsis: http://www.dougbremner.com/MURDER_OF_ME ... nopsis.pdf

Status: Completed screenplay.


I would have supported Bettina regardless, but the fact also is, we owe her a debt of gratitude. If she had not had the courage to speak, and we not followed up, this would not have come to light.

One last, astrological aside :) The day this broke, my horoscope read: 'you will meet someone with diametrically opposing views than yours (the case) but you will learn from each other, and be friends'. She will always have my support, as a friend.


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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Sounds a bit like a cockroach invasion, Ergon. Everywhere you look, out pops another one.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Thanks everyone,

I appreciate certain people too, relatively, now, here Ergon, who is good mannered.
I'm not outing criticism, against any of the good people here.
Doesn't mean I can take the constant reporting about fuckers like Bruce and Frank, I choose not to indulge, and not to go where vile people like that are.
But participating here means I must listen to things about them, the half of which I cannot follow, as I never look at anything they do say or write, not first-hand.

Only I never go to all of the sites that get mentioned here every day, with the most nasty crooked people.
It's those people that exasperate me.

What I find important and relevant, is not Frank, and not Bruce and not anything except wha will happen through law, is this case going to be reversed?

Me, I find it almost ill, to be talking here, to someone who is only here... secretly, as in Bruce reading things and writing about things going on here. I feel if those who believe Knox and Sollecito are guilty, never paid any attention to this Bruce person, then nobody would hear about him, I mean I never did, only heard about him through the advertising of him... here, with thee never ending reporting about what he said, THERE.
Why not ignore the bastard?

I find engaging with such people only encourages the insane attitudes they have.

Will Hellmann's ruling get overturned?

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:15 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Hi, Zorba, and thanks for saying that. I never cared about 'winning' debating points with surrogates for the accused or PR company fronts. Learned a long time ago that arguing at debate chat forums would be a complete waste of time. But there are things we can learn about their psychology, and motivations. It's all about information, and what we do with it. There are a lot of things we still don't know about this case, or the PR effort to try to get them off free through political pressure.

But, as to your question, I believe that either the original convictions will be upheld (there have been precedents for this) or, it will be sent back for retrial. I vote for the former.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Welcome to new member dpreston. I presume you're Doug Preston, who wrote The Monster of Florence?
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

guermantes wrote:
max wrote:
By the by, while looking for these old twitters I came across guermantes amazing capabilities to predict the future.

guermantes wrote:
Interesting news about Spezi. Expect a new level of madness in Frank Sfarzo's battle against the Perugian justice authorities. I shudder to think about his state of mind right now.


Hey max, thanks for the compliment. I have always had flashes of intuition about people and places, since I was a child.

In relation to those who are involved in this case, I make this specific prediction: ten years from now, Carlo Dalla Vedova will have moved to Russia, to the "Venice of the North" or "Paris of the East" (St. Petersburg) [http://www.st-petersburg-life.com/], most likely to represent clients in oil and gas litigation, appeals, energy law, etc This might sound weird but this is what is going to happen.

Come back to this forum or get in touch with CDV in ten years' time :) and you will see what I mean. Don't ask me how I know. ;) Other predictions concerning members of both PMF forums are of a more personal nature, so can't post them on a public forum. sun-)

I'm going to return the compliment by saying that I like to reread some of your old posts. You have written some really great, well-researched posts; here is one that I like, regarding the bathmat shuffle, etc cl-)

http://www.perugiamurderfile.net/viewtopic.php?p=95455#p95455



I agree with this Guermantes. Great post by max, and a spot on comment about the ear cleaning and earring removal.
Total lies. And Knox trapped herself in them. The PR spinners would have the average reader believe, that when any reference to a lie is presented, one is only referring to their 'coercion crapola'. She wasn't coerced when she lied here, she was writing emails and giving testimony. I'd be willing to wager that if you picked any ten random people off the street, totally unfamiliar with the case, and presented them with a copy of this part of the testimony, you'd have ten people rolling on the floor, laughing. Add the bathmat boogie, and they'd be laughing so hard, they'd weep.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:46 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Thanks. The way I like to analyze murder cases is by mathematics. By thinking what really is the chance of this or that happening. Of course there will always be coincidences. Like the bomb hoax, the broken car, and plenty of other things. But then when you look at the evidence and all the excuses that are being made up to somehow come to the conclusion that they are innocent, you will have to go through an amazing long list.

Speaking of math. The book 'Maths on Trial' is expected to come out in March. Just before the SC hearing.
http://www.andrewlownie.co.uk/authors/l ... s-on-trial

The Meredith case will be one of the topics. They won't give their opinion about guilt or innocence but this article indicates that they will point out some mathematical errors that C&V made.
http://mathsontrial.blogspot.com/2011/0 ... -knox.html

More specifically.
Quote:
we will cover a logical/mathematical error made by the appeal judge in the Meredith Kercher murder case. The purpose of our book is strictly not to make any assumptions of guilt or innocence in any of the cases, but simply to seek out and explain instances of false mathematical reasoning.

http://mathsontrial.blogspot.com/2011/0 ... 5480590189
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:08 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

max wrote:
Thanks. The way I like to analyze murder cases is by mathematics. By thinking what really is the chance of this or that happening. Of course there will always be coincidences. Like the bomb hoax, the broken car, and plenty of other things. But then when you look at the evidence and all the excuses that are being made up to somehow come to the conclusion that they are innocent, you will have to go through an amazing long list.

Speaking of math. The book 'Maths on Trial' is expected to come out in March. Just before the SC hearing.
http://www.andrewlownie.co.uk/authors/l ... s-on-trial

The Meredith case will be one of the topics. They won't give their opinion about guilt or innocence but this article indicates that they will point out some mathematical errors that C&V made.
http://mathsontrial.blogspot.com/2011/0 ... -knox.html

More specifically.
Quote:
we will cover a logical/mathematical error made by the appeal judge in the Meredith Kercher murder case. The purpose of our book is strictly not to make any assumptions of guilt or innocence in any of the cases, but simply to seek out and explain instances of false mathematical reasoning.

http://mathsontrial.blogspot.com/2011/0 ... 5480590189


I heard about this book on .ORG and was immediately drawn to it, max. As someone who struggles somewhat to teach my current generation brood of teenagers about the joy of math (they're more into Art :)

It represents a different way of thinking, absorbing data and arriving at conclusions that we all need to balance our left-right brains. Even to see how it can be used in criminal trials will be a treat.

This the FIRST thing that convinced me about the case, and I've said so here. The absolutely amazing number of coincidences, but I knew that instinctively, and not mathematically ;)

I definitely will be buying the book when it comes out. Hope it will also be available as an EPUB or Kindle..
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Offline dollycat


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:23 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ergon wrote:
dollycat wrote:
Nell wrote:
I think they did a pretty good job with the cover photo, considering what they had to deal with.


Most days I feel positive that there will be justice in this case, one way or another - there has to be, I cant let myself think of the alternatives. Other days the odds seem insurmountable what with the cretins and their dodgy dealings and the killers with their money-making books - how did all this happen?? what is going on? It's like a horrible evil parallel universe. This book and its cover make me feel really low and so sad for Meredith's family.

x


Yes, I know it can be disheartening, dollycat. A slick book cover, which might well look like Raffaele's to hit the remainder bin, no matter how much they publicize it. As one fevered supporter put it, it'll sell a few thousand, er, "millions". Way I look at it, there are all many kinds of justice, no matter which way the supreme court rules.

Ps: Did they photoshop in three more inches of neck? ;)


Thanks Ergon - and I agree that justice comes in any forms - I dont actually care if Knox refuses to leave America - I just want her to be convicted of the crime that she committed and live the rest of her life always hiding and cowering with people knowing she is a murderer.

I feel more positive today thanks to the Meredith Kercher Fund - it's fantastic, so nice to see glowing, happy pics of Meredith - she always makes me smile :D

RIP Meredith
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Offline daisysteiner


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:45 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

The Meredith Fund site is fantastic and I'm glad that the Kercher's are finally allowing donations in order to take the fight into the final stages (in the supporting the fight sense not the paying themselves sense). I also hope that the fund continues after March and does some amazing things in Meredith's name. I have no doubt in my mind that this fund will do some truly wonderful things especially if Steph Kercher is at the helm. She is inspirational just like her sister and parents. Good luck Steph and the Meredith Kercher fund :) Perhaps when the donation page is live, we could pop a link on the front page? Nice to be able to send any passing traffic towards the donation site.

I can't help it but the cynic in me is wondering how many $5,000 donations will be coming in from the FOA considering the substantial sums raised for Frankie and his Fists of Fury (definitely not a dig at Bettina/Peter, most definitely a dig at everyone else on IIP). Donation button on I-A? I wonder how many of the Facebook page will be putting their money where their mouth is?

@Napia5 - those $3 or $4 dollars are more important than any donations as these are the sort that mean the most. Your grand kids have $3 or $4 for their entire pocket money and they are choosing to give it all for Meredith. That's a very beautiful thing. Much love to you all x
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:55 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

So tonight at (Italian) prime time they are going to show that Lifetime movie. There have been so many articles on the showing that I am sure it will be viewed well. With so much media attention for this movie, it makes it only stranger that Sollecito didn't publish his book in Italian...or maybe not...

Quote:
Anche Gabriele Sollecito ha scritto un libro, “Honour Bound” uscito il settembre scorso sempre in America.

http://www.ilmoderatore.it/2012/12/02/a ... e-5-34365/
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

There also will be an Italian General election on or before April 14, 2013, with a socialist coalition set to take power under Pier Luigi Bersani. Should create an interesting dynamic in Italy for the SC hearing :-)
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:47 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

max wrote:
So tonight at (Italian) prime time they are going to show that Lifetime movie. There have been so many articles on the showing that I am sure it will be viewed well. With so much media attention for this movie, it makes it only stranger that Sollecito didn't publish his book in Italian...or maybe not...

Quote:
Anche Gabriele Sollecito ha scritto un libro, “Honour Bound” uscito il settembre scorso sempre in America.

http://www.ilmoderatore.it/2012/12/02/a ... e-5-34365/


Is it possible that the Sollecito's book will be released in Italy after the movie? If the movie release is generating so much interest, wouldn't that work as free publicity for the book? I realize that it hadn't originally been published in Italian, but, is there any reason why it can't be?
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Happy Birthday today, Napia5! r-(( r-(( r-(( r-(( r-((
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Napia5 wrote:
max wrote:
So tonight at (Italian) prime time they are going to show that Lifetime movie. There have been so many articles on the showing that I am sure it will be viewed well. With so much media attention for this movie, it makes it only stranger that Sollecito didn't publish his book in Italian...or maybe not...
Quote:
Anche Gabriele Sollecito ha scritto un libro, “Honour Bound” uscito il settembre scorso sempre in America.

http://www.ilmoderatore.it/2012/12/02/a ... e-5-34365/

Is it possible that the Sollecito's book will be released in Italy after the movie? If the movie release is generating so much interest, wouldn't that work as free publicity for the book? I realize that it hadn't originally been published in Italian, but, is there any reason why it can't be?

Maybe after the SC hearing? I don't know. He might not have a publisher. He has always been a side show next to AK anyways. Even in Italy they don't even know his first name :mrgreen:
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:47 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

An Italian journalist did say a while back he'd be writing a book, Napia5, but I don't know if he has the permission of the Sollecitos. Honor Bound can't be translated into Italian because it makes clear reference to illegal acts on his family's part.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ergon wrote:
Happy Birthday today, Napia5! r-(( r-(( r-(( r-(( r-((




Thank you! They seem to be getting closer and closer together these days.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

max wrote:
Thanks. The way I like to analyze murder cases is by mathematics. By thinking what really is the chance of this or that happening. Of course there will always be coincidences. Like the bomb hoax, the broken car, and plenty of other things. But then when you look at the evidence and all the excuses that are being made up to somehow come to the conclusion that they are innocent, you will have to go through an amazing long list.

Speaking of math. The book 'Maths on Trial' is expected to come out in March. Just before the SC hearing.
http://www.andrewlownie.co.uk/authors/l ... s-on-trial

The Meredith case will be one of the topics. They won't give their opinion about guilt or innocence but this article indicates that they will point out some mathematical errors that C&V made.
http://mathsontrial.blogspot.com/2011/0 ... -knox.html

More specifically.
Quote:
we will cover a logical/mathematical error made by the appeal judge in the Meredith Kercher murder case. The purpose of our book is strictly not to make any assumptions of guilt or innocence in any of the cases, but simply to seek out and explain instances of false mathematical reasoning.

http://mathsontrial.blogspot.com/2011/0 ... 5480590189



I think I'd enjoy reading this, max. In some simplistic way, I think that this is what I did when reviewing the evidence that caused me to come to agreement with the guilty verdict. One small example, Meredith's DNA on the knife.
If we start at zero, with zero being absolute certainty that the DNA belongs to Meredith, with the additional tolerance of the possibility of contamination, we then have to assume, in the physical world, the possibility of contamination must be added in to the equation, as a tolerance, of sorts, in ALL DNA reviews, however slight the possibility.
This formula, then, becomes the new zero. In order to move one way or another towards guilt or innocence, corroboration must then be added. There is none on the side of innocence. The lie Sollecito told, regarding pricking Meredith with a knife, was just that, a lie. Which way, then, do we move the marker?

I looked at all of the evidence this way. Nothing I could see moved any marker into the area of reasonable doubt.
And, to me, the way in which the evidence is argued by the Groupies, taking each item in isolation, is an attempt to keep the markers singularly in the area of doubt. In my world, none of the markers stay there when taken as a whole.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:38 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Is anyone familiar with this website? I don''t recall it being mentioned anywhere before.

.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/34/ot ... ex548.html
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:14 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Happy birthday Napia! Yes, I followed that forum also (although I never posted). I kept it quiet because it wasn't overrun by groupies yet. It is a poker forum and there are several of those discussions on poker sites. I guess they like to bet on the outcome of the trial. That thread is very long and it is not uncommon for the members to call each other idiots :) There is some good stuff in that thread.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:36 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

max wrote:
Happy birthday Napia! Yes, I followed that forum also (although I never posted). I kept it quiet because it wasn't overrun by groupies yet. It is a poker forum and there are several of those discussions on poker sites. I guess they like to bet on the outcome of the trial. That thread is very long and it is not uncommon for the members to call each other idiots :) There is some good stuff in that thread.


Thanks, max. Quite odd how things connect. There must be a reason. I purchased my current laptop in order to play poker. Lost a bit of interest when the 'now these sites are illegal in the states evolved. I was actually better at live table games, harder when you can't read the players, however.

Thought I'd take a browse around the 'net today to see what was new in the world of online poker, and, well, here I am, reading a forum about Meredith. You're good at math. lol. What are the odds?
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:40 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

I pretty much see only negative reactions in Italian articles about the lifetime movie. Too American, too much love story, too much AK the victim, too anti-Italian, no answers, etc...

http://www.tvblog.it/post/119545/amanda ... recensione
http://www.ilquotidianoitaliano.it/?p=152478


Last edited by max on Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:09 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Napia5 wrote:
max wrote:
Happy birthday Napia! Yes, I followed that forum also (although I never posted). I kept it quiet because it wasn't overrun by groupies yet. It is a poker forum and there are several of those discussions on poker sites. I guess they like to bet on the outcome of the trial. That thread is very long and it is not uncommon for the members to call each other idiots :) There is some good stuff in that thread.


Thanks, max. Quite odd how things connect. There must be a reason. I purchased my current laptop in order to play poker. Lost a bit of interest when the 'now these sites are illegal in the states evolved. I was actually better at live table games, harder when you can't read the players, however.

Thought I'd take a browse around the 'net today to see what was new in the world of online poker, and, well, here I am, reading a forum about Meredith. You're good at math. lol. What are the odds?

Lol..I don't know the odds of you being into online poker, but the 2+2 forum is huge and the thread about this case there is huge so I think the chance of you coming across it are maybe higher than you think :) And it is not the only poker (and betting) forum having a thread on this case although most have died a long time ago. I thought the 2+2 thread was dead also but I guess they are at it again. Same goes for some other forums such as the one at JREF. I dunno why. March is still far away. So maybe something in the air? Or in the stars? Ergon? :mrgreen:
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:33 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

It certainly struck me as bizarre, to the max (no pun). I was looking to give myself a bit of a breather by finding something totally unrelated, and here I am again. I think this is Ergon-related. I actually had no clue that there were forums on poker. And I have no idea how I ended up there. But I was struck by how up-to-date it was as far as things that are currently happening. It certainly is a large thread.

I suppose that there are people out there who would actually be willing to bet on the outcome (horrible thought), but I would hate to see anyone posting actual odds on it. Thinking on it, though, after what I've seen happen in this case over the last two years, I shouldn't really be surprised.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:40 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

max wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
max wrote:
Happy birthday Napia! Yes, I followed that forum also (although I never posted). I kept it quiet because it wasn't overrun by groupies yet. It is a poker forum and there are several of those discussions on poker sites. I guess they like to bet on the outcome of the trial. That thread is very long and it is not uncommon for the members to call each other idiots :) There is some good stuff in that thread.


Thanks, max. Quite odd how things connect. There must be a reason. I purchased my current laptop in order to play poker. Lost a bit of interest when the 'now these sites are illegal in the states evolved. I was actually better at live table games, harder when you can't read the players, however.

Thought I'd take a browse around the 'net today to see what was new in the world of online poker, and, well, here I am, reading a forum about Meredith. You're good at math. lol. What are the odds?

Lol..I don't know the odds of you being into online poker, but the 2+2 forum is huge and the thread about this case there is huge so I think the chance of you coming across it are maybe higher than you think :) And it is not the only poker (and betting) forum having a thread on this case although most have died a long time ago. I thought the 2+2 thread was dead also but I guess they are at it again. Same goes for some other forums such as the one at JREF. I dunno why. March is still far away. So maybe something in the air? Or in the stars? Ergon? :mrgreen:


The stars show enormous shifts right now. max. We're on the cusp of something very beautiful to behold. But it'll be accompanied by a lot of upheaval. Yes, indeed, something in the air, but I'm more hopeful for the good in all of us than ever before.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:58 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Upheaval we're familiar with. It's time for something beautiful.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:34 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

There will indeed, be something beautiful.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:12 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Napia5 wrote:
It certainly struck me as bizarre, to the max (no pun). I was looking to give myself a bit of a breather by finding something totally unrelated, and here I am again. I think this is Ergon-related. I actually had no clue that there were forums on poker. And I have no idea how I ended up there. But I was struck by how up-to-date it was as far as things that are currently happening. It certainly is a large thread.

I suppose that there are people out there who would actually be willing to bet on the outcome (horrible thought), but I would hate to see anyone posting actual odds on it. Thinking on it, though, after what I've seen happen in this case over the last two years, I shouldn't really be surprised.

You see the craziest things on the internets. Unfortunately your post already attracted the first groupie to that forum. It is freakin unbelievable that they can't just let a couple of poker players discuss that case in their own way. It is not normal. Not human. I need a bucket tu-))
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:11 pm   Post subject: WHY I KEEP COMING BACK TO THis CASE   

What is even more bizarre, max, is the thought that "some" people will still be going on even if there's a clear conclusion to the case. This is NOT a normal case, with the unexpected and the statistically improbable :) in conjunction with each other.

Yes, we can care for justice. But as soon as we see ourselves becoming too emotionally invested in outcomes, I, personally, like to step back. There's a field of psychology, still relatively unexplored, of the confluence between psychology and parapschology. 'Scientists' and pseudoscientists too rigidly exclude and ban the occult. The great Michel Gauquelin http://www.astrology-and-science.com/g-hist2.htm was driven to suicide by such attacks, but never mind. It is simply healthy, to disengage once in a while.

What keeps me coming back to this case is observing the many spiritual dimensions at play here, as well as of course, the many mathematical left brained conclusions that we right brained individuals need, in order to keep an even keel. hugz-)
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:29 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

I have a question then, Ergon. Which side of the brain is functioning when you step back, head to something totally unrelated, and find yourself right back into it? External pull or internal need?
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Offline daisysteiner


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

I created a Pinterest account ages ago so I could plan my wedding (happening in Sri Lanka in early 2014! Yay! Only been with MrS for 8 years so we're a bit overdue). I was on there earlier and looky who I stumbled across. http://pinterest.com/amandamarieknox/pins/ it is her as she is being followed by half of the Paxton family including MadPax.

More frightening proof that Knox and I have unbelievably similar taste, apart from when it comes to terrifying then murdering our friends. I'm not a massive fan of that unlike Mandy.

And before the FOA start, this is a public profile created by Amanda using her own name and photograph on a public website. If I was stalking her, I'd be hacking her accounts not looking at her creations in the public forums that are being recommended to random people by the site owners.

Cue analysis. Especially the book cover board.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Napia5 wrote:
I have a question then, Ergon. Which side of the brain is functioning when you step back, head to something totally unrelated, and find yourself right back into it? External pull or internal need?


Usually, it's the internal need that draws one back, Napia5. What differs in this case is the external push that pulls one back. Like the coincidences. Or something supernatural. Or a person. Or an external event.

Beyond the left or the right brain, there's the super brain that controls that. What some might call the spiritual brain. Some geniuses have one side or the other exaggerated, and some, like Einstein had increased brain mass in BOTH hemispheres. Thus greater electrical and neurotransmitter activity or communication between both sides. That's what those adepts in meditation do. Yet I think anyone can access the superbrain, and step away from all that.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

daisysteiner wrote:
I created a Pinterest account ages ago so I could plan my wedding (happening in Sri Lanka in early 2014! Yay! Only been with MrS for 8 years so we're a bit overdue). I was on there earlier and looky who I stumbled across. http://pinterest.com/amandamarieknox/pins/ it is her as she is being followed by half of the Paxton family including MadPax.

More frightening proof that Knox and I have unbelievably similar taste, apart from when it comes to terrifying then murdering our friends. I'm not a massive fan of that unlike Mandy.

And before the FOA start, this is a public profile created by Amanda using her own name and photograph on a public website. If I was stalking her, I'd be hacking her accounts not looking at her creations in the public forums that are being recommended to random people by the site owners.

Cue analysis. Especially the book cover board.


Congratulations on the impending nuptials, daisysteiner! And all the best to you and yours. Sri Lanka is a beautiful country.

I confess I wasn't sure that was her picture used as an avatar there, but, yes, it does look like her page. Yes, the photos are illustrative of a complex personality, one with many interests, talents even. It is, as you say, the choices we make with those gifts that define us.

Not relating this to her personally, but when I see women who have gifts not fully expressed, who can't actually make something of that, it has to do with the wounded male side.
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Offline daisysteiner


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Thanks Ergon :) I'm really looking forward to it. Private villa with the nearest and dearest then off to the Maldives for a week. If I wasn't putting the best part of my disposable income away every month, I'd be enjoying the build up much more haha!

I like Knox's pages tbh, much as it pains me to admit it, with the exception of the photography poses. I just find them creepy. Not because Knox posted them, I just find that stuff a bit weird anyway. I like some of the goth art she has put up along with a few of the book covers.

Man, if the conviction is reinstated in March then the shock to her system will be catastrophic. I'll be the first one to guess she doesn't get sent to Italy to restart her sentence on "mental health" grounds...
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ergon wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
I have a question then, Ergon. Which side of the brain is functioning when you step back, head to something totally unrelated, and find yourself right back into it? External pull or internal need?


Usually, it's the internal need that draws one back, Napia5. What differs in this case is the external push that pulls one back. Like the coincidences. Or something supernatural. Or a person. Or an external event.

Beyond the left or the right brain, there's the super brain that controls that. What some might call the spiritual brain. Some geniuses have one side or the other exaggerated, and some, like Einstein had increased brain mass in BOTH hemispheres. Thus greater electrical and neurotransmitter activity or communication between both sides. That's what those adepts in meditation do. Yet I think anyone can access the superbrain, and step away from all that.


Makes for quite a conversation when they don't agree with each other! sur-)
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

daisysteiner wrote:
Thanks Ergon :) I'm really looking forward to it. Private villa with the nearest and dearest then off to the Maldives for a week. If I wasn't putting the best part of my disposable income away every month, I'd be enjoying the build up much more haha!

I like Knox's pages tbh, much as it pains me to admit it, with the exception of the photography poses. I just find them creepy. Not because Knox posted them, I just find that stuff a bit weird anyway. I like some of the goth art she has put up along with a few of the book covers.

Man, if the conviction is reinstated in March then the shock to her system will be catastrophic. I'll be the first one to guess she doesn't get sent to Italy to restart her sentence on "mental health" grounds...


Congratulations, daisy. Sounds wonderful! Except for the disposable income part.

I have to say, your opinion on the mental health grounds, I'm not seeing it. Too close to what's being used as explanation for the murder. A mental health issue will ruin her brand. Although I do believe there will be issues which will garner sympathy to help to keep her home.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

More on Sfarzogate.

Thanks to Ergon bringing over a copy of his comment earlier, we can see that Fisher knew that Frank's trial was the result of a domestic 'problem':

Bruce Fisher wrote:
Bruce Fischer: Post subject: Re: Today over at PMF Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:59 pm
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When I talk about discrediting Frank I am talking about his current struggles in Italy that are supported by the CPJ. We know that Mignini had Frank's website taken offline and we know Mignini's name was on Frank's warrant. I have no doubt that the authorities manipulated a family dispute in order to punish Frank for voicing his opinion against them. They saw an opportunity and they took it. Testimony from previous hearings already confirms that the authorities tried to manipulate the situation. Time will tell how it all plays out. I will tell you that I will still support Frank even if convicted because I know the authorities are out to get him in Perugia. Frank's family matters are private and I don't want to elaborate further even though the court hearings are public record. I will say that we stand with the CPJ in support of Frank. These are the reasons that our organization has supported Frank from the beginning.


Of course, he continues to blame Mignini, without providing a shred of evidence to do so. If Mignini's signature is on the arrest warrant, then post it Bruce! The fact is, it's pure lies. Bruce doesn't have it, for if he had, he'd have made sure it was all over the web by now! If it exists, there is no justifiable reason not to post it, NONE, especially as even Bruce himself concedes, the trial records are a matter of public record! So, if they're public Bruce, why not make them public to your anglo followers? Something to hide??? You bet!

ETA: Please also demonstrate the CPJ's continuing support for Frank Sforza. Ever since Kermit's open letters to the CPJ exposing Douglas Preston and Frank Sforza as frauds on truejustice.org and the CPJ's very short response that made no attempt to answer them and the important points they contained, we have heard ZERO from the CPJ in support of Frank Sforza! The truth, is that from that moment, the CPJ has quietly dropped all public support for Frank Sforza...and for damned good reason!

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Still yet more on Sfarzogate.

I can now reveal, thanks to my source who does not wish to go public, that Francesco Sforza has been receiving 300 euros monthly from Judge Michael Heavey, of the Friends of Amanda campaign group, in order for him to continue writing Perugia Shock. Sforza came to very much depend on these payments, even though they cannot be considered to be 'big money'. The go between who arranged these payments for Frank, was Candace Dempsey. These undeclared payments were being made at least from 2011 onward. Candace Dempsey meanwhile, was providing Sforza with clothing.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Congratulations to Napia and Daisy!!! tt-) b-(( da-)) r-(( r-(( r-(( r-(( r-(( r-(( r-(( r-((

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Offline daisysteiner


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Michael wrote:
Still yet more on Sfarzogate.

I can now reveal, thanks to my source who does not wish to go public, that Francesco Sforza has been receiving 300 euros monthly from Judge Michael Heavey, of the Friends of Amanda campaign group, in order for him to continue writing Perugia Shock. Sforza came to very much depend on these payments, even though they cannot be considered to be 'big money'. The go between who arranged these payments for Frank, was Candace Dempsey. The payments were being made at least from 2011 onward. Candace Dempsey meanwhile, was providing Sforza with clothing.


So the PR machine that never was actually is as we always suspected? Frank was never in this for Meredith, always for himself. Heavey used Frank to spread the US party line and Candace...well she is being Candace isn't she, i don't think my opinion of her could be lower. Frank took the line of the person who paid him the most. Nice journalistic morals there Frank, no wonder you couldn't get a job on a school paper let alone a pro organisation.

Top work Michael. I have a sneaking suspicion who your source is. I won't ask on here or by PM as I won't be that rude to you or your source but if it is who I think it is, that's epic. In fact its beyond epic and must have taken some work to achieve. *applause*
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:38 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

These payments, plus all others from his supporters, were funneled through a Paypal account belonging to an Italian friend. Francesco Sforza claims there was a problem with his Paypal, but it appears he was trying to hide his income from the tax officials.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

daisysteiner wrote:
Michael wrote:
Still yet more on Sfarzogate.

I can now reveal, thanks to my source who does not wish to go public, that Francesco Sforza has been receiving 300 euros monthly from Judge Michael Heavey, of the Friends of Amanda campaign group, in order for him to continue writing Perugia Shock. Sforza came to very much depend on these payments, even though they cannot be considered to be 'big money'. The go between who arranged these payments for Frank, was Candace Dempsey. The payments were being made at least from 2011 onward. Candace Dempsey meanwhile, was providing Sforza with clothing.


So the PR machine that never was actually is as we always suspected? Frank was never in this for Meredith, always for himself. Heavey used Frank to spread the US party line and Candace...well she is being Candace isn't she, i don't think my opinion of her could be lower. Frank took the line of the person who paid him the most. Nice journalistic morals there Frank, no wonder you couldn't get a job on a school paper let alone a pro organisation.

Top work Michael. I have a sneaking suspicion who your source is. I won't ask on here or by PM as I won't be that rude to you or your source but if it is who I think it is, that's epic. In fact its beyond epic and must have taken some work to achieve. *applause*



Indeed. My source informs me that Sforza actually believed in the guilt of Knox, hence why his blog began in such a tone, but switched sides because he felt the money lay with the defence campaign. For him, this was always and only about the money. Not about Knox (although, I can report he had a huge crush....or better said, 'lust' for Amanda Knox, as has been reported to me) and certainly never about Meredith. From what I'm hearing, all Candace was really concerned about was how her book sales were doing. Apparently, Sforza and Dempsey are very similar characters. And no, I really don't think you know who my source is.

I for one am certain, that the CPJ was never informed of the fact that Francesco Sforza was being paid by the Friends of Amanda Knox group, a group whose aim from the very beginning has been to smear and slander the Italian police and prosecutors via a dirty tricks propaganda campaign.

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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Hi, all. And it just keeps rolling in, doesn't it? According to Bruce's own post, he's off the topic until the holidays are over. A suspicious mind might get the idea that he is already busy with his rough draft, a tell-all about how he was duped by a PR campaign. Hitting the book stores, say, about the end of April. Follow the money.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ergon wrote:
These payments, plus all others from his supporters, were funneled through a Paypal account belonging to an Italian friend. Francesco Sforza claims there was a problem with his Paypal, but it appears he was trying to hide his income from the tax officials.


I cannot confirm Judge Michael Heavey's payments were made in exactly that way, at least not from my source. That said, we know that way was being used for supporters of Amanda Knox to make 'donations' (payments) to Sforza, so I see no reason why Heavey wouldn't have used the same method (or even that it was Heavey's payments that actually set up this method). However, I cannot confirm this for certain.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Daisysteiner wrote:
Frank took the line of the person who paid him the most. Nice journalistic morals there Frank, no wonder you couldn't get a job on a school paper let alone a pro organisation.


Frank was never a journalist, just a wannabe. According to my source, Frank's 'career' has been limited to working as a waiter in a discotheque just outside of Perugia.

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Offline louiehaha


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Michael wrote:
Still yet more on Sfarzogate.

I can now reveal, thanks to my source who does not wish to go public, that Francesco Sforza has been receiving 300 euros monthly from Judge Michael Heavey, of the Friends of Amanda campaign group, in order for him to continue writing Perugia Shock. Sforza came to very much depend on these payments, even though they cannot be considered to be 'big money'. The go between who arranged these payments for Frank, was Candace Dempsey. These undeclared payments were being made at least from 2011 onward. Candace Dempsey meanwhile, was providing Sforza with clothing.




WoW this is interesting.
No wonder Judge Michael Heavey’s daughter wants to distance herself from his behavior.


I wonder if these cash and in-kind payments by Heavey and Dempsey should be pursued as violations of FTC guidelines regarding endorsements and testimonials, as this relationship is required to have been disclosed. As a sitting judge, Heavey would likely have been aware of this obligation.


Quote:
“The revised Guides also add new examples to illustrate the long standing principle that “material connections” (sometimes payments or free products) between advertisers and endorsers – connections that consumers would not expect – must be disclosed. These examples address what constitutes an endorsement when the message is conveyed by bloggers or other “word-of-mouth” marketers. The revised Guides specify that while decisions will be reached on a case-by-case basis, the post of a blogger who receives cash or in-kind payment to review a product is considered an endorsement. Thus, bloggers who make an endorsement must disclose the material connections they share with the seller of the product or service.
http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2009/10/endortest.shtm


Are there any real journalists around to pick up this story?

(Wasn’t it Judge Michael Heavey who used some fancy Old Testament logic to armchair-adjudicate Guede guilty? ie Is this how innocent people mount their defense?)
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:47 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

It wasn't even disclosed to their own followers, let alone the CPJ and wider public. The existence of these payments would have been known only to the Knox inner sanctum.

There is MORE to come.

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Offline louiehaha


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Michael wrote:
It wasn't even disclosed to their own followers, let alone the CPJ and wider public. The existence of these payments would have been known only to the Knox inner sanctum.

There is MORE to come.


I can't say I'm surprised that their campaign involves multi layers of fraud.

Yesterday Knox's twitter sockpuppet accounts set to tweet her innocence once every minute couldn't keep pace with the real tweets #amandaknox is a murderer that came pouring out of Italy after the Lifetime movie aired. Astroturf campaigns are another form of deceit. Why bother if AK is factually innocent?

I have no doubt they're concealing other, bigger secrets and I look forward to their revelation. I hope it finds an honest journalist to give it traction.
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Offline louiehaha


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:47 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

It looks as though Candace has vastly overestimated the size of Frank's



inseam.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

That may be down to the fact that the clothes Dempsey was giving him, were her son's old cast-offs :)

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Offline louiehaha


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Michael wrote:
Ergon wrote:
These payments, plus all others from his supporters, were funneled through a Paypal account belonging to an Italian friend. Francesco Sforza claims there was a problem with his Paypal, but it appears he was trying to hide his income from the tax officials.


I cannot confirm Judge Michael Heavey's payments were made in exactly that way, at least not from my source. That said, we know that way was being used for supporters of Amanda Knox to make 'donations' (payments) to Sforza, so I see no reason why Heavey wouldn't have used the same method (or even that it was Heavey's payments that actually set up this method). However, I cannot confirm this for certain.


Does anyone know who owns this email?
ps-don-coordinator@live.com

This is the person who authorizes which bank account to plug into the pay button on PS.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:01 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Our last information was it was one of his friends in Italy that actually owned the account, louiehaha. Don't know if that person is 'don'. But it does lead us back to Knox, who we are told by none other than Francesco, that she hid the moneys received from Harper Collins to make her judgement proof against any actions from the Italian government or civil suits from the Kercher family.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:04 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ergon wrote:
Our last information was it was one of his friends in Italy that actually owned the account, louiehaha. Don't know if that person is 'don'. But it does lead us back to Knox, who we are told by none other than Francesco, that she hid the moneys received from Harper Collins to make her judgement proof against any actions from the Italian government or civil suits from the Kercher family.


Hi Ergon,

No matter who owns the account, I suspect that this email address has been registered only for the purpose to receive donations for Frank Sfarzo and doesn't give any hints as to the identity of the owner.

ps = Perugia Shock
don = donations
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:02 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Napia5 wrote:
Hi, all. And it just keeps rolling in, doesn't it? According to Bruce's own post, he's off the topic until the holidays are over. A suspicious mind might get the idea that he is already busy with his rough draft, a tell-all about how he was duped by a PR campaign. Hitting the book stores, say, about the end of April. Follow the money.


For someone who isn't going to post on the topic, or come here, he posts, within the hour that I and daisysteiner 'analyzed' Amanda, or tells his troops that Michael has posted libels from 'a horribly unreliable source'.

One would think Bruce's trying to steer attention away from Francesco Sforza's abuse of his supporters, and his own actions ;)
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:49 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ergon wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
Hi, all. And it just keeps rolling in, doesn't it? According to Bruce's own post, he's off the topic until the holidays are over. A suspicious mind might get the idea that he is already busy with his rough draft, a tell-all about how he was duped by a PR campaign. Hitting the book stores, say, about the end of April. Follow the money.


For someone who isn't going to post on the topic, or come here, he posts, within the hour that I and daisysteiner 'analyzed' Amanda, or tells his troops that Michael has posted libels from 'a horribly unreliable source'.

One would think Bruce's trying to steer attention away from Francesco Sforza's abuse of his supporters, and his own actions ;)


I am not able to read on the member boards, so I only see what is posted here. I'm curious. Where does Sarah stand in all of this? Wasn't she spearheading the 'donation' drive? I've been researching donations, by the way, since that is what the 'gifts' are being called. Donations, at least in this country, are attached to charitable, non-profit groups or corporations, etc. I'm not posting a link at this time, as I am unsure exactly which laws would apply.
There are instances of people who start fund drives for those in need, such as a cancer patient in need of an operation, having no insurance, but, from what I have read so far, these accounts are strictly regulated, with a great deal of accountability. The laws in Italy may be different.

I'm at the point where I don't believe that there are any people still posting who are not part of the inner sanctum.
By that I mean average people, off the street, who came together in their belief of innocence. They lost the last round of that group with the latest Frank debacle. No way could anyone convince me that those left don't know what's happening with Frank. Because, if they didn't know, they wouldn't be posting right now. They'd be re-viewing all the evidence and information that was supplied by Frank, trying to determine what was true, and which of their opinions might be affected by his dishonesty. I know I'd be re-thinking the whole thing.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:50 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Oh, and I forgot. Frank has a new post on his Shock blog.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:45 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Michael wrote:
I can now reveal, thanks to my source who does not wish to go public, that Francesco Sforza has been receiving 300 euros monthly from Judge Michael Heavey, of the Friends of Amanda campaign group, in order for him to continue writing Perugia Shock.


At this point, I'd also be interested in knowing who is behind a letter-writing campaign to the Mayor of Perugia, Wladimiro Boccali?

Quote from an article translated by Zorba:

Quote:
American sources have reiterated to the envoys of the Mayor of Perugia Wladimiro Boccali that the angry letters would be the result of pressure from powerful lobby groups in Seattle who have not digested the Meredith Kercher case.


I suspect that Judge Heavey had his hand in this, too. He just can't stop writing letters to Italian officials and let it go, can he? What has the Mayor of Perugia got to do with the judicial process anyway? We know that Italy's judiciary is autonomous and independent of all other branches of power, so why did they write to the mayor? To try and dissuade him from establishing a scholarship in Meredith's name? :shock:

Quote:
The relationship were again blown out after a number of nasty letters to the Mayor of Perugia, always regarding Meredith's case.


Nasty letters... something that seems like a very KayPea thing to do. Have these letters been published online? So just what are they keeping secret?

Quote:
...the idea exists of ​​certain associations and USA lobby groups destroying the relationship - by a sort of economic embargo and cultural disadvantage, they think - of/with Perugia.


They are acting like a bunch of morons, no brains at all, damaging a good relationship between the two sister cities, and for what???
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:14 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Reposting some good stuff from the .ORG site, albeit with a slight delay. I'm a bit behind these days.

cr-))

Jools' translation of an article from Oggi:

Amanda Knox like Penelope: writes and rewrites her tell-all book.

The young woman accused and then acquitted of the murder of Meredith Kercher is completing her memoirs. From which this week’s OGGI advances some scabrous content.

Amanda Knox writes her book of memoirs. Excerpts from which are published by OGGI, on newsstands Wednesday. The tell-all book will come out April 30, at the conclusion of the process for the crime of Perugia in the Supreme Court, at the end of that bad dream made of a murder, a conviction in the first instance trial and an acquittal in the second instance.

IN JAIL FOR 4 YEARS - Amanda Knox, and with her Raffaele Sollecito, was jailed for 4 years before she was acquitted on appeal. And OGGI, on newsstands Wednesday, is able to anticipate some of the contents of the book by the young Seattle woman. Amanda have been busily working on her memoirs since last February. But the book is done, gets undone and is redone, like Penelope's cloth.

NOT MORE THAN 300 PAGES – The publisher HarperCollins has offered Amanda as much as 4 million dollars, but requires that the volume does not exceed 300 pages. She, reveals OGGI, still has a lot to include: from the separation of her parents when she was only two years old to the more recent parties or scholarship in her honor.

ARREST AND DETENTION – In the middle of everything, the “film” of the arrest, the interrogation without a lawyer (even with the heavy accusations made recently by Sollecito), the long detention, the difficult return to Seattle and her second life after years of isolation: everyone wanted to talk to her and hug her; it was hard; she needed to remain isolated. OGGI reveals that Amanda will also tell that the contact with the babies, children of other prisoners was “the oasis that saved her.”


Oggi-weekly

Original Post: http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?p=123483#p123483
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:31 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Girlanda's opinion after screening of the Lifetime movie in Italy:

MEREDITH MURDER: Girlanda (PDL), THE FILM SHOWS REAL BAD ADMINISTRATION OF PERUGIA

Rome, 04 Dec – “The film about the death of Meredith Kercher, which provides an Americanized version of the case, and the human and psychological profiles of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, on the basis of a production made in short time, taking advantage of the international stir produced by the judicial case, should not provoke particular outrage in relation to the representation of the city of Perugia and its forms of degradation, well known to all the residents.” Said the MP Rocco Girlanda, PDL, at the time president of the Italy USA foundation and author of the book “I'm coming with you,” about Amanda Knox. “I read in the media and on social networks the outrage against a film where, at the beginning, there are the depicted scenes of drug dealing out in the open, as well as phrases and expressions such as “in Italy everything is illegal but nothing is forbidden.”

"For this reason, however, I think it is just right to put to one side momentarily the feelings of rejection towards those who offend the image of Italy around the world and of Perugia in particular, focusing the attention on the connection to the unfortunately tragic reality of some scenes from the film and on the fact that the policy choices made by the local administrators, even five years after the fact, did not produce a radical change of the state of things. It’s enough to go into the city center after 11:00 pm for anyone to realise, despite the majority of the reports and institutional recommendations made by law enforcement, the volume of the drug dealing market does not seem to start to diminish, not only hashish and marijuana referred to in the film, noted unfortunately by the dreary distinction of European Capital of overdose deaths in relation to population. In this sense, then - concludes Girlanda – I ask to reflect on the effects of such a film going round the world, beyond the judicial case, that in recent years have resulted in a decline of the flow of tourists and the number of students enrolled in university centers."



Rocco Girlanda-opinion

Original Post: http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?p=123490#p123490
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:35 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Napia5 wrote:
Oh, and I forgot. Frank has a new post on his Shock blog.


Saw Frank's latest, Napia5. Nothing original, nothing new. Still going on about the same, like all he has to do is say "Mignini" and the hounds will salivate. Regarding the "donations", I-A's official response is that they only linked to Perugia Shock, and it was up to members to donate what they wished, not I-A's responsibility.

I'm sorry, that's not good enough. These were people who were members of his group, who donated substantial sums to Francesco Sforza. Just one person donated $5000; you do the math when you think of several hundred people, at least, that might have donated. THREE people in three separate locations made open accusations of abuse, yet all Bruce Fischer did allow was for their posts to be deleted, edited, or personal attacks and implications be made. "Old", "alcohol", "fell down"?

Francesco Sforza has not communicated openly on this matter, but prefers to hide behind the fact that his hearing in Perugia is due. Fine, he can post his side here whenever he's ready. And Judge Heavey is also, welcome here to confirm or deny whether he donated 300 euros a month or not over a period of time. Was it to help penniless, pantless Frank, or was it to help keep up his crusade against PM Mignini alive, on behalf of Amanda Knox?
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:45 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   



The 411 wrote:

"Some quick quotes from a Corriere dell'Umbria interview with Rocco about the film seen on Italian TV.
...
OK...here's a quick sample from the above YouTube:

Interviewer: "It's the first time it's been broadcast in Italy.
You've heard from [Amanda] in the past few days. What did she tell you about it?"


Rocco: "Well, look-- she's told me more than once...At this point in time, the public relationship we had became only a great private friendship..."
"I regularly hear from Amanda... about this and that, about our friendship and our private lives."

..................
[About the airing of this film in Italy]. "She's worried. She says it's an awful film. It doesn't reflect the actual story."
....................
"I believe that Amanda has moved on a great deal from the controversy that had to do with her time in Italy. "
.....................
"She's a happy girl who lives, works, studies, writes her book...in the United States...and I'm happy about that."


http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?p=123497&sid=4c22dd94a4c785697d98e637411baf7f#p123497
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ergon wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
Hi, all. And it just keeps rolling in, doesn't it? According to Bruce's own post, he's off the topic until the holidays are over. A suspicious mind might get the idea that he is already busy with his rough draft, a tell-all about how he was duped by a PR campaign. Hitting the book stores, say, about the end of April. Follow the money.


For someone who isn't going to post on the topic, or come here, he posts, within the hour that I and daisysteiner 'analyzed' Amanda, or tells his troops that Michael has posted libels from 'a horribly unreliable source'.

One would think Bruce's trying to steer attention away from Francesco Sforza's abuse of his supporters, and his own actions ;)


If Fischer wants to scream libel, then he can formally contact me via my email account and inform me what he thinks specifically is libelous, instead of screaming generalised accusations across the web. It sounds to me like he's trying to intimidate and bully us into silence as he tried with Bettina. This is PMF, we don't suffer bullies. Who does he think he is?

And my source is good.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

This I might add, from a little man in Chicago whose whole sordid little campaign, site and book against Mignini and the Italian police has been nothing but one long never ending libel, all under the claimed banner of 'free speech'. Fischer is the world's poster boy for hypocrisy.

I on the other hand, am confident that nothing on this site is libelous. We go to great pains to take all reasonable steps in fact checking our sources in regard to making statements of fact. And we reserve the right to present these facts, since they concern public figures and their activities regarding a very public murder case and this is within the public interest. And that which is not fact, but speculation and opinion, is clearly presented as being such and IS protected under the laws governing free speech. One of the primary roles of PMF is to inform the public and as such, we have a journalistic role.

And I will close off by saying, that for every fact of information from my source that I publish, there are a good ten or so that I don't, as they are not connected or relevant to the case and are purely private matters concerning Frank Sforza and his allies and as such, their publication cannot be justified as being in the public interest. We laud and adhere to, a strict code of ethics in our reporting.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

damn, usually see pretty women on some guy's site but on Knox's page, seems to me she might like women, more than like

and this case may have something to do with that.

Her page there sure is creepy

I shut it down right, fast and called in a feng shui expert, or whatever they are called,

you know, I truly think she takes great pleasure in the idea that the police cannot, or nobody can, find out the truth, maybe it's that she tried to get Meredith into group sex, but what I am sure of, this person has something very, very wrong with her mind.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:14 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

He ain't Heavey

He's my do nat or

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

The Court is in session, presided over by the good & honest Judge Heaveye

Judge Heaveye: Counsel for the defence, do you have anything to add?

Lawyer Heaveye: Er, no, she ain't done shit

Judge Heaveye: are you sure?

Lawyer Heaveye: Of course you are sure

Judge Heaveye: Ok, I sentence this murderer to go free and receive money and gifts, with the explicit proviso, Article 1, Section 2, para 3a. Should she turn ugly or look like a man, funds shall therewith be withdrawn.

Churchy buddies or rather business-like looking pals: Amen

Lawyer Heaveye: I thank me

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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Michael wrote:
Ergon wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
Hi, all. And it just keeps rolling in, doesn't it? According to Bruce's own post, he's off the topic until the holidays are over. A suspicious mind might get the idea that he is already busy with his rough draft, a tell-all about how he was duped by a PR campaign. Hitting the book stores, say, about the end of April. Follow the money.


For someone who isn't going to post on the topic, or come here, he posts, within the hour that I and daisysteiner 'analyzed' Amanda, or tells his troops that Michael has posted libels from 'a horribly unreliable source'.

One would think Bruce's trying to steer attention away from Francesco Sforza's abuse of his supporters, and his own actions ;)


If Fischer wants to scream libel, then he can formally contact me via my email account and inform me what he thinks specifically is libelous, instead of screaming generalised accusations across the web. It sounds to me like he's trying to intimidate and bully us into silence as he tried with Bettina. This is PMF, we don't suffer bullies. Who does he think he is?

And my source is good.


Fischer/Frank do seem to be using a faulty bit of reasoning, from what I can see. Frank needed/needs money. Hence all the donations. Frank has all of these wonderful libel suits he can file. So says he. Why doesn't he? Then he would have money and could cut all of his donators a break. What am I missing?
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Yes, I too have been crying myself to sleep at the thought of Frank unable to sell enough salami, therefore, I hereby do pledge to send him my leftover Italian currency, in Lira, along with a nice piggy bank, which, in his case, would be highly appropriate.

Hey, ya know what, when I resided for a wee while in Rome, I knew a small, yes, he was as are many Sicilians apparently, guy, now he was a brainy man, classically trained in music, and nothing less than very well educated, however, he was penniless.

I becoming rather fearsome about all of this heaviness, like yes - it was beginning of the 80s - the huge bomb that had gone off in Bologna, and as I stayed there in that apartment with these Italians, the magazines did most thoroughly scare me to shit, with gruesome photos of murdered people, blood and all, fully detailed centrefolds, and I asked myself, lemme think, is this what we do back home too, and I couldn't quite remember, as it all seemed so normal in Rome and Italy. So, I was feeling a little paranoid, this is before I got the crap beaten out of me by 3 fascists one moonlit night, almost dying and this on the very night John Lennon was murdered.
Only a car coming up the hill, or down it, cannot remember, caused them to run off, I'm certain they'd gladly have provided enough kicks all over my body to make sure the life departed from me. The following days/weeks, I could hardly walk.

Anyhow, this little Italian, from Sicily, said, well, the mafia, it's a mentality. And so, in some places thus, many have that mentality; it's like a kind of unofficial tax man, taking what he believes is his right.

I must say, after having travelled the world, the fascist versus communist stuff made me afraid to travel or be there, as that night when I got beat up, really disturbed me, I mean people do not start telling you all of this stuff (about horrible events), but after I got beat up they did.

So when people like those freakos in Seattle try to paint some warped picture, it's so ridiculous because neither Rome or Perugia are Sicily, nor the famous south with its abundance of mafia mentality, in fact, Perugia is not Rome and is nothing like it, it's like being in two entirely different worlds, as is the case in and for every place/spot in Italy, diverse as it is, with every areas, spot, location being vastly different there. Perugia's main characteristic is the fantastic nature, the atmosphere it brings, the marvellous abundance of produce, and, not a mafia mentality.

Now go to Bari, and you are definitely not in Perugia or Milano, the west, southwest, is not my favourite area in Italy. I found the Southeast as creepy as the lower Southwest in Italy.

So my wee friend, from good family n all, his way would be like: Well, I have the money here for Zorba that Georgio gave me for him, but he is not here, and we need food, so I will go shopping.
However to understand how this would go and where he in fact was not being bad, you need to live in Italy and learn how people share, like going to someone's home, your friend the owner or occupant is not there, but his/her friend is, so you are there and you make one sign that you are hungry or need something and that person will just start cooking and the friend may return, right while he/she (the friend) is still busy and think nothing of it, because this is the warm way Italians live with one another, at least among friends, yet that friendship is immediately transferred and extended to strangers, and the notion of ''a friend of yours is a friend of mine'' is really real there. Complete strangers embraced me as a measure of good manners simply because I showed up with friends of theirs, this is stuff I never experienced in northern Europe.

People without security, in countries that do not have such an abundance, or easy systems for getting help, so like Italy, may have social security but I can assure any and everyone that you will not get it easily, so people all know they are vulnerable and are not hard on others as they all help one another. It's kind of the opposite of highly developed countries with their hard ''get a job'' utterances (when there are none) and the refusal to share, so everyone that way becomes a wee insular, singlular capitalist; I don't need you, I have mine, you get yours...

when this is something that can only be like this in highly developed countries, and then not even for everyone, this ''I do not need anyone, I'm independent''.

The more a society is unfairly shared, the more the negative things are created, where those with enough become very harsh towards anyone else they sense may threaten their standard of living (those without).

But where did the mafia start? was it a result of true poverty? I think so but then humans soon get a taste for the easy money, the sheer abundance, even if they need to kill others for it, like the mafia does, whilst pretending to themselves that they are god-fearing, Catholics, love the mama, and their loyalties, god almighty, screwed up, but we now know that the mafia mentality left Italy and has flourished in so many places, however, the good or bad in people, is stimulated by the way society functions and it is not at all helped by societies that leave so many out in the cold.

If a person wished to get on in Perugia, he/she could, but I reckon, people like Frank, prefer to be nasty and blame others for their own shit attitudes.

He may be bad, but in no way does he represent an average Italian at all. Yet not all Italians are perfect, just as all Canadians or Swiss are not, but, chiefly, Italians don't come up with so many innovative, creative things through being stupid.... DUH, Seattlarian Jesuit bullshitters, do ya hear?

The audacity of humans to base their ways on someone like Jesus while doing so much bad; does anyone believe if Jesus showed up at Knox's school and saw the twisted merchant teachers there with the pretences they do spin as though they understood a word Jesus said, would praise them, no, he'd throw them out of the temple, kicking their bull into the gutter where it belongs.

Come on, they could or should be called Develuits not Jesuits.

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Last edited by zorba on Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:44 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Hi, Zorba. My own memories of Italy are from long ago (a high school graduation gift of a tour of Europe).
I was on St. Mark's Square in 1969 when the astronauts landed on the moon. A small shop had an outside counter where one could step and order without going inside. The shop owner had a television propped where passersby could take a peek as they passed. I will never forget that day. No one there knew I was an American. As we all paused to get a glimpse of the picture, the Italians cheered, as a group, as the pictures were shown. They were happy! There were no eye rolls, no knowing looks passing, and, even though I spoke no Italian, I can tell you that the mood in that group, that moment, was, for me, one of the proudest of my young life.

It's been a long time, and I know things change, people change, but I have never been able to view the Italian people through the eyes of those who say that the Italians hate us. That Knox was targetted because she is an American.

When I left Italy, I went to France. That's a whole 'nother story, as they say.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:43 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Right Nap

This nonsense about Anti-Americanism, is pure fantasy, Italy isn't Iran, those cats in Seattle need to ask for maps for Christmas

or if they possess computery Google Maps ought to sort their sense of planetary regions out, though I fear some are not actually Planet Earth residents

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:04 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Step-pa: So now you've been back a while, your ma and I got ta thinking, whether you did or did not commit cold-blooded murder, it has been rather profitable, therefore, if you should wish to make another trip and you stand about doing acrobatics, kissing and sexing it up with your, "whoever your male friend happens to be at the time", right there at a murder scene, know, please do, that we will support you. Which leads me to remind you, it did cost us billions, I had to plunder my account and sell my Pontiiac Aztek, so your mom told me to tell you to buy me a boat, here is the brochure, good night.

Knoxioni: No way, I'm off to Thailand for an operation, I will be called Arnold, can't ya see what my real problem is, I like girls and if they don't like me, I kills em, so watch out.

Yep folks even mom and dad don't understand this bit

Ya know what, I reckon it was all about sex drive and then mashed up with stimulants, and shitty little minds.

Father of Solo Solly Arse Solly Psycho: He watches TV no more. The maid takes him his Russian salad at 10, then he has therapy until 22 hundred hours after which he takes his sleeping tablets like a handful of Smarties and retires.
No, he has no trouble sleeping, he is on so many pills the same would bring a herd of elephants down.

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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:39 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

zorba wrote:
Step-pa: So now you've been back a while, your ma and I got ta thinking, whether you did or did not commit cold-blooded murder, it has been rather profitable, therefore, if you should wish to make another trip and you stand about doing acrobatics, kissing and sexing it up with your, "whoever your male friend happens to be at the time", right there at a murder scene, know, please do, that we will support you. Which leads me to remind you, it did cost us billions, I had to plunder my account and sell my Pontiiac Aztek, so your mom told me to tell you to buy me a boat, here is the brochure, good night.

Knoxioni: No way, I'm off to Thailand for an operation, I will be called Arnold, can't ya see what my real problem is, I like girls and if they don't like me, I kills em, so watch out.

Yep folks even mom and dad don't understand this bit

Ya know what, I reckon it was all about sex drive and then mashed up with stimulants, and shitty little minds.

Father of Solo Solly Arse Solly Psycho: He watches TV no more. The maid takes him his Russian salad at 10, then he has therapy until 22 hundred hours after which he takes his sleeping tablets like a handful of Smarties and retires.
No, he has no trouble sleeping, he is on so many pills the same would bring a herd of elephants down.



As far as I see it, Zorba, in some cases it's not a-sexual, or be-sexual, or bi-sexual or see-sexual or homo or hetero,
the sexual is not as important as the power and control of the other. Significant other is not important as significant, the important is the 'other' as any 'other' is an 'other and any other will fit the bill depending upon the circumstances of the moment. And will only be viewed as 'the other'.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Right Nap, agree

What crosses my mind is the PR efforts, all tried to ridicule the very idea oif sexual, which is another ridiculously stupid thing to do, considering how Meredith was found there on the floor.

It's easy for there to have been no traces of them in Meredith's room, Meredith simply got stabbed elsewhere and they hardly did anything in her room.

Guede gets off way too lightly, as he is just as bad, for one thing, he holds the key to the truth, he can alleviate so much pain, distress and suffering, by revealing what happened and by being a man thus, no matter how bad he was, I'm Sure he was not the one to start wielding knives.
He could be easier to forgive for being a sexual menace, abuser, etc, than it is to forgive Knox and Sollecito for stabbing Meredith to death.

I see signs that Sollecito is indeed the one who will crack no matter how much he tries not so much to kid the world but himself, as he cannot even watch TV, so he's scared of facing things, he is timid, he isn't strong, have him be properly confronted and he'll white foam it at the mouth as he goes bananas and spills the lot.

Knoxio, she remains a snickering chimp, . the very main ingredient that could have led to Meredith's death, lives on, in that individual, I'm sure, I know bad attitudes and she certainly has one of those, Knox can stand things because in her brain, whatever it was that took place between her and Meredith, means Knox feels she is right, and I'm certain the very rage she had because of an angle, that has not been revealed, an angle between her and Meredith is still valid in her mind and because of it, she imagines it was simply unfortunate but Meredith deserved it, Knox sees it as a kind of accident, even her rage, because of a confrontation.

It's hidden in the few things said by Sollecito and Knox herself, as well as couple of bits from Guede.

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Tweeted by Andrea Vogt:

Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt
Today's "Oggi" gossip mag features interview w/ #amandaknox in a Seattle cafe. Says she's "still tormented by her Perugian scars."

It seems that 'interview' was by Francesco Sforza. The case has just become very, very, interesting.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

So's Italy, as Berlusconi's party abstains on a crucial vote and signals he's going to run for re-election in April.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:15 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ergon wrote:
So's Italy, as Berlusconi's party abstains on a crucial vote and signals he's going to run for re-election in April.



Good god, that's another one who just doesn't know when enough is enough!

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

louiehaha wrote:
It looks as though Candace has vastly overestimated the size of Frank's



inseam.




Darn, he looks straight out of Oliver Twist

Poor man, gimme his piggy bank number I've gathered my Italian Lira together, he can have the lot, 10 thousand lira, or 2 dollar 75 cents

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

guermantes wrote:
Michael wrote:
I can now reveal, thanks to my source who does not wish to go public, that Francesco Sforza has been receiving 300 euros monthly from Judge Michael Heavey, of the Friends of Amanda campaign group, in order for him to continue writing Perugia Shock.


At this point, I'd also be interested in knowing who is behind a letter-writing campaign to the Mayor of Perugia, Wladimiro Boccali?

Quote from an article translated by Zorba:

Quote:
American sources have reiterated to the envoys of the Mayor of Perugia Wladimiro Boccali that the angry letters would be the result of pressure from powerful lobby groups in Seattle who have not digested the Meredith Kercher case.


I suspect that Judge Heavey had his hand in this, too. He just can't stop writing letters to Italian officials and let it go, can he? What has the Mayor of Perugia got to do with the judicial process anyway? We know that Italy's judiciary is autonomous and independent of all other branches of power, so why did they write to the mayor? To try and dissuade him from establishing a scholarship in Meredith's name? :shock:

Quote:
The relationship were again blown out after a number of nasty letters to the Mayor of Perugia, always regarding Meredith's case.


Nasty letters... something that seems like a very KayPea thing to do. Have these letters been published online? So just what are they keeping secret?

Quote:
...the idea exists of ​​certain associations and USA lobby groups destroying the relationship - by a sort of economic embargo and cultural disadvantage, they think - of/with Perugia.


They are acting like a bunch of morons, no brains at all, damaging a good relationship between the two sister cities, and for what???



You know Guer, I cannot imagine how a JUDGE can be as dense as he obviously is.

Thern it tells me, not Knox and daughter were chums, but mom and he were goodly neighbours, sure.. . that is it.

He id as biased as biased can be or get

But judges ought to operate at a highly level than that, whether at work or off duty, just like a policeman or any other pillar of society should

Say what you like about police but I don't see how we could just have no police and so the entire network of what are meant to be professional civil servants, ought to represent a realm of responsibility to be impartial that this particular judge does not seem to grasp and for which no body seems to be checking him on or correcting him on either.
That's just f-- great


Hey Guer when I translated that, it was like following a piece of Baroque music on my guitar and have these sounds I never could have designed myself, pop out, the very wording, ''not DIGESTED'', I mean, DAMN IT, THOSE ITALIANS CAN BE SHARP, that one word summed the lot up, just like that.
Misguided thus.
Ill-informed, not grasped.
They know exactly what has been going down. It's even embarrassing, that strain from Ann Arbor or whatever it's called there! What is it, north west Seattle, that the Knoxiums and Mellaxes come from/live?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:14 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ergon wrote:
Tweeted by Andrea Vogt:

Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt
Today's "Oggi" gossip mag features interview w/ #amandaknox in a Seattle cafe. Says she's "still tormented by her Perugian scars."

It seems that 'interview' was by Francesco Sforza. The case has just become very, very, interesting.


Sounds to me like someone's got a tiger by the tail. Trouble is, if you let go the tail, the tiger may turn around and bite you. Interesting, for sure.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

I do have a Christmas tree...

from last year, it's in the yard and looking rather brown(ed off), etc,

therefore, that I think I shall spray it green and save the planet, and the Christmas trees.

If I get one I'm doing it properly, by getting a living specimen with roots, whereby I shall do my best to keep it alive then replant it, felt guilty about the last one, that's why I still have it, hoping it might suddenly turn out to be alive and turn green again

Considering they grow in the freezing cold it must be a lovely Christmas for the trees themselves, brought into what is to them the equivalent of a Swedish sauna where the temperature controls have broken down, in which suana goers are fried.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Hey Guermantes,

You know, one serious case in Italy, where a mother went off her head and smashed her infant's head in with a large copper soup ladle, had her get life.

She was from a very well-off family.

One of the so-called experts (I say so-called as I did not like the guy at all, I mean his theories are just such exercises in finding anything to get what is, his client, off, that I could not and never respect someone as a human being no matter what title of society you h5ife behind to say it is the way it works, in my book that is a lie. You do not make up stuff to get people off murder charges not the way he does) was one that was used in Knox's case.
In any case, the point: she and her rich family created media mayhem, in exactly the same way Knox's did, while she was out on bail.

The judges viewed that as an affront to justice, which means they say her activities as an attempt to disallow the course of justice, that is why she was given the maximum sentence.The only reason it was reduced, was because, even though she herself said I'm perfectly in order mentally, they had a different take on it, and with expert reports, deduced that she had psychological problems.

My opinion is that the courts in Italy, will not allow Knox and Sollecito to walk away, if it can be shown by the rules of law, that they should rightly be in prison for murder, this was already decided, so it is now about whether Hellmann's observance of the written laws was correct, if not they must overturn what Hellmann did, making Knox and Sollecito as guilty as they were the first time around, or calling for the case to go back to court, and no amount of American manipulation a la Seattle is going to break that system or have it ignored.

As Hellman definitely ignored every rule in the book, then the only realistic answer can be that it will be overturned, and that they will then be guilty, I do not see it going back to court, why should it, the other judges did observe EVERY law.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:07 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

And what I mean by this is, in the end, it might just be that all of these awful activities may lead to an even worse situation for Knox... and Sollecito, at least it should do, as they are the orchestrators of their families, even if their families run of their own accord to be deceitful.

Strange on Knox's site there how a couple of photos picked out by her show very nasty creepy, bloody scenes, guess it's part of her after seeing Meredith there dying on the floor after being attacked by Sollecito and Knox herself, at least this is my opinion, I think Sollecito and Knox are more than guilty of first degree murder with aggravated circumstances. Why would a person who has been, and IS involved still, in such a horrific case, whether guilty or not, place such creepy photos like that on her site, in the context of what has taken place it's simply awfullyl bad taste and very insentitive, whichever angle you choose to look at it from.

Some of the aggravated circumstances are those played out after the murder, as those two just never stop.,

Now eat your Russian pork salad Sollecito and hide away in daddy's walled and gated villa, for justice is coming to you and your dearest friend from Seattle and there will be no more hiding.


Papa, I'm afraid of the one black one, who might say strange things...

Yes like reveal that you are perhaps a murderer, yes, no, mmm, yes I think that was it wasn't it.

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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Interesting conversation taking place on .org today with regard to Meredith's jeans.
I think that the Groupies should ponder the question of how a Lone Wolf would have removed them that they didn't turn inside out. And, if Guede pulled them cuff-first, where is the blood from his hands on the cuff portion? Just an unscientific observation.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Hi, Napia5, (Correction, apologies. It was daisysteiner who found it)Thanks again, daisy steiner for being the one to discover Amanda Knox's pininterest account. http://pinterest.com/amandamarieknox/ which, last I looked, is NOT locked. Her interests match that of a great many young women, and there is nothing there that screams as being er, 'different', but then I've never been a fan of the cartoon caricature model that some in the media or various camps ascribe to her. There is a great deal more to her psychology that I am sure we will come to know once her book comes out and she makes TV appearances. But, at the same time I am not "diagnosing" her, as some in the Google pop psychology camp seem to think. Not having met, tested, or having access to the medical and educational history of, Amanda Knox or Raffaele Sollecito, everything I have said or written so far about their psyche is speculation and opinion.

Including, my next piece :)

Edited by Ergon
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:35 pm   Post subject: THE FATAL GIFT OF BEAUTY REVIEW   

I'm having a lot of fun reading Nina Burleigh's book, The Fatal Gift of Beauty and I am pleased to see some confirmation of what I surmised about the emotional milieu that Amanda Knox grew up in. I'm also one to say that the characterisation of Curt Knox as some sort of dead beat father is totally wrong, along with other unfounded and unworthy speculations that some internet posters made, sorry to say.

But I will repost this opinion I wrote in March this year: viewtopic.php?f=1&p=93850#p93850

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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:14 pm Post subject: Re: XXIV. MAIN DISCUSSION, FEB 21, 12 -

Nell wrote:
Hi Ergon,

John Follain interviewed Curt Knox and Edda Mellas in 2008 and Edda Mellas had a dig at Meredith, which I found absolutely tasteless, besides that she got the facts wrong - once more. I heard her saying that in an interview as well and it let me to believe that she is a very angry person, as is Curt Knox.

Quote:
"The family hesitate when I ask whether they have anything they would like to say to Meredith’s family. Edda is the first to break the silence: "We’re in a sticky situation because of what people have written about Amanda.

We’d like to reach out, but what will they think if we say to them, 'Your daughter was my daughter’s housemate and we can only imagine your pain’? I can’t imagine what they are having to live through. It’s horrific, and every time rubbish comes out about the alcohol level in Meredith’s blood or her sexual activity, my first thought is, 'My God, that poor family has to hear this again and again.'"


Please correct me if I am wrong, but the only sexual activity that was covered extensively in the press was Amanda's, because in her case there was plenty to report about. Same about her drug and alcohol use."
............

Ergon wrote:
Quote:
She is two-faced about that here, since it's the parents who released the evidence files to the FOA, who spread it around. That never made it into the press, since it was irrelevant That she then expresses concern for the Kerchers would shame the least self-aware crocodile.

Edda Mellas is a very interesting person, one who hasn't been studied enough, imho. Amanda Knox never had the stabilising influence of a father in her life, and therefore best fits the description of a daughter in her mother's image. If you want to understand the psychology of Amanda Knox, you need to study Edda Mellas. She, Mellas has deep reservoirs of rage and jealousy. Having to fight for support, seeing her husband start another family with his girlfriend, brings up more information about the psychological baggage of Amanda Knox.

Here is the source of the anger towards the Kerchers. They blame them, and by extension their lawyer Francesco Maresca, for keeping their daughter in jail. Sure, they blame 'evil' prosecutor Mignini though imo that was more a fiction created by Douglas Preston.

But, how dare the Kerchers support the prosecution? Why can't they see that her daughter is innocent, and support her? Here is where I disagree with those who say it is Chris Mellas who started it. I feel the source of the rage is Edda Mellas. There is a scene from the Lifetime Movie, in the end.(I am not one of those who dislike it out of hand-when you look you see in the actress's face the jealousy developing against the more accomplished Meredith)

In the last scene, Amanda has been declared guilty and is being taken away to prison. A look passes between the mother of the victim and the mother of the convicted murderer. That look is not one of sympathy between two mothers who have lost their daughters, though some may project that to be so. In Arline Kercher's eyes, I see satisfaction that justice has been done, and in Edda Mellas, a reacting, incandescent, rage."



More to follow.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Hi Ergon

I think that's her intention to be on a non-saying anything, non-personal site like that, but she is saying something, what she is saying is about pretence, letting people think there's no difference, but there is, she is involved in a murder case, what women have gruesome bloody-like photos on their sites? I must say I've never seen it.
Her pretence is to act as though nothing has happened, this Italian art and books, and then also other books in the arty farty way, like making a show of it, as though she is some developed, intellectual creature, many books, her sister has but a few bits on her page.

The Italian inclusion part, as if nothing happened in relation to that, and the notion in her head, that she has an affair going on with Italy, and thiungs Italian, like one might have in a positive way, is totally nonsensdicxal seeing as what her famiuly have done, ion her nbame, against Italy and Italian, she hardly has that does she, it all going on with Italy!!!
After everything that has gone on, is she loved and adored?
is she going to be welcomed with open arms?
is she a friend to Italians?
Nothing of the sort.

Therefore her vague entries like that, show me that her very putting up an open page (which is everything but open and social as in real networking = it's highly impersonal and I knew the site already and never liked the look of it, another one of those that hope to sell it to Google in a year) like that which is not a social site as the only interaction is clicking on a thing from someone elseis to put up yet another one of those smokescreens.


What else is not right?

What's not right is that within the context of what is in realistic terms, a court case that is still going on involving murder, she puts up images with a view to creating an image of herself, but, being that it is mental what she has done and been up to and what she is hiding, she cannot leave out doing strange stuff, out of place stuff, stuff that might be ordinary with someone else but definitely is not when it is about her, yet I do not see women, even if feminists, putting stuff up, involving women, that has such a sexual angle to it as the way she uses this stuff, with a lot of female imagery, but then, after all she was seen outside a murder scene not kissing as in here here, don't worry it's okay, comfort comfort comfort, but like they had just left off having sex and it was continuing right there, so on her page, out of all images that she might put up, she puts girls in mini skirts, women posing and a man and a woman kissing in bed.

In view of the seriousness of her case, I think it's insane what she is doing and absolutely different to what any other person would do, if innocent, but in the same circumstances, what Knox does, is simply show the levels of her total insensitivity, and her really poor judgement skills, she demonstrates a TOTAL lack of taste and sense of place and time.

Exactly what her big friend Sollecito said about her and in his distress and panic when trying to get the heat off himself, I think he meant it, and why he meant it, was because it was true about her. She has no grip on reality.

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Very true, Zorba, and I don't disagree with you. Above all, she shows a stunning inability to see herself as others see her. Robert Burns again, anyone? :)

My point is that it's an indicator of narcissism, and my point also is, that so many of her generation share that very same quality.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ergon wrote:
Very true, Zorba, and I don't disagree with you. Above all, she shows a stunning inability to see herself as others see her. Robert Burns again, anyone? :)

My point is that it's an indicator of narcissism, and my point also is, that so many of her generation share that very same quality.



I also agree and do get it, that narcissism hardly has her stamp on it alone, isn't tweeting and all of that CRAP the very height of superficiality, I mean the definition of the height of self-inflation is people having sex with themselves looking in the mirror at themselves.

What did strike me and give me the creeps is the inclusion of the bloody faced man, why in hell would she need to put in a thing like that?


I think her site was orchestrated, to carry an image, like the one thing of hers, from another person, showing the thing about the good guys in Nazi Germany, speaking out.

I'm certain she has been looking online and sees what things people said, and the bad impressions he made, so an I like inclusion on the people that spoke out against the Nazi's is an exercise in, hey, I'm not a Nazi.

I also do not think she is a Nazi, and I also thought and think nothing of her getting behind a machine gun the way she did, come on, there is absolutely nothing in that, but her mental disturbances as a result of hurts) there is something in that, and though I talk a lot of shit, I wish ill on nobody and no matter how hard it is, imagine how deep inside and no matter how twisted she has let herself become of just became, it's awful and I am certain there are real reasons to have caused her to wind up that way, to not be able to control herself and feel so unwanted and not belonging that she could have and I believe so, wound up murdering Meredith, totally unable to put things into perspective, hurting and blaming others for it.

Why do'nt her family help her...

she won't heal, she will not be able to heal
And her own mother and father will have aided that terrible situation

Even if she had admitted it, would she have been able to live with herself easily, I doubt it, and though she is now a callous person, underneath is hidden the damaged little girl who hurt and is still hurting and who projected that hurt onto others, costing one her life.


I say Sollecito on pills but how would her dad really be, is he so mutton-headed that he can switch off his real sensitivities, ignore what his inner self is telling him. Costs a lot to press that costs you a liver, a heart even your mind in the end, or maybe you just get cancer, as that is so unhealthy doing things like that.


I mean if Knox murdered Meredith, nothing can undo that.

And if there is one person that feels that each day now, it would be Knox, as she is the one it is relevant to, nobody else, she is the one who has to carry thart burden with her to her own grave. Not dealing with why it happened, is not going to help her.


That's why, what you say about mom, I mean I said it too, her mother knows, and she is guilty of failing her daughter for aiding her in destroying what is left of her.

Mom was simply too weak to do the right thing.

Now it hangs over everyone, instead of the one it should hang over, as far as she does not say sorry, and repent of that type of wickedness that she embraced and cast it out.

Even if she says sorry it will not bring Meredith back but she could become free of the wickedness that overtook her, and then there can be forgiveness and healing.

Even time in jail will not bring Meredith back, will jailing a person really help make things any better, no, I do not believe it will or can. Because my answer is in love, and no matter how hard that is, it is the only way forward.

I'm sure Meredith's family do not even care about the jail thing, they would much prefer the I'm truly sorry part, then it's for the doer to deal with it, that is not their problem, and they can just try to get on with their own lives no matter how hard, knowing that they must as Meredith would be sad if she could see them in continual hurt, she would want them to be happy, the way she was and they were.

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Napia5 wrote:
Interesting conversation taking place on .org today with regard to Meredith's jeans.
I think that the Groupies should ponder the question of how a Lone Wolf would have removed them that they didn't turn inside out. And, if Guede pulled them cuff-first, where is the blood from his hands on the cuff portion? Just an unscientific observation.


Sigh. I really ought to rest more often, which is why I wrote to you and daisy steiner at the same time :)

The discussion about Meredith wearing her boyfriend's jeans? Keep in mind the source of that meme is the testimony of Raffaele Sollecito, who might well have misunderstood the North American (and U.K.) term "boyfriend jeans" which is a generic style of women's jeans, sold by Levi http://us.levi.com/family/index.jsp?categoryId=3520905 Gap, Old Navy and many other stores.

A style that I, as the proud dad of three young women, well ought to know :)
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

@ zorba, lest we forget, her H.O.T. video, original script by Amanda Knox. Or her MySpace and Marie Pace writing. Or that Kyle, the rapist brother in the story, is the name of the boyfriend she first had sex with, who then dumped her, per Burleigh. Who also wrote that she did post a naked picture of "Federico" whom she met on the train.

Lots to analyze, or at least, speculate about a public figure :)

But it was nice to see your humanistic side shine through, which I always knew was there.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:39 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ergon wrote:
Tweeted by Andrea Vogt:

Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt
Today's "Oggi" gossip mag features interview w/ #amandaknox in a Seattle cafe. Says she's "still tormented by her Perugian scars."

It seems that 'interview' was by Francesco Sforza. The case has just become very, very, interesting.

So was this even true or made up? Didn't he have an imaginary 'interview' with her before in jail? I don't believe a word of this. Where is this interview?
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:05 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ergon wrote:
@ zorba, lest we forget, her H.O.T. video, original script by Amanda Knox. Or her MySpace and Marie Pace writing. Or that Kyle, the rapist brother in the story, is the name of the boyfriend she first had sex with, who then dumped her, per Burleigh. Who also wrote that she did post a naked picture of "Federico" whom she met on the train.

Lots to analyze, or at least, speculate about a public figure :)

But it was nice to see your humanistic side shine through, which I always knew was there.



I nevr do, never have lost track of what it is all about, only, the stuff coming from these people incites violence, I mean that coming via them, through family and supporters is totally in line with violence done to Meredith, it's entirely aggressive, but though I talk hard, it's more to keep from going insane taking in all of the crap, I can never take all of it in, only let it go to a shallow depth, I'm not having that nuttiness in my brain.

I'm always amazed how people can sit through vvideos of these folk, ewven Knox in court and the others, I just could not bear to listen or watch and I didn't, as I did not need that in my head as I knew it was total bullshit everything, everything they said.
Did not bneed to listen to them to realise that,, and listening would have helped nothing.

So when the hell does her parents have to go to court?

I wonder is there no overseeing body that stops shit like Sollecito's family have a case conducted in a village where he's probably, daddy then, like pals with the judges or police or anyway, the so-called establishment there?
Seeing as how it is relative to a Perugian murder I think Dad Sollecito ought to be tried there.

Anf now back to my non-humanistic side; shouldn't Sollecito be strung up by his balls? Well. if he has any

yeah, think he should, it'd jolt his memory!

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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:20 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Hi Zorba. What do you think it's like being a step-parent in this situation?
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:48 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

zorba wrote:
I do have a Christmas tree...

from last year, it's in the yard and looking rather brown(ed off), etc,

therefore, that I think I shall spray it green and save the planet, and the Christmas trees.

If I get one I'm doing it properly, by getting a living specimen with roots, whereby I shall do my best to keep it alive then replant it, felt guilty about the last one, that's why I still have it, hoping it might suddenly turn out to be alive and turn green again

Considering they grow in the freezing cold it must be a lovely Christmas for the trees themselves, brought into what is to them the equivalent of a Swedish sauna where the temperature controls have broken down, in which sauna goers are fried.


Hey Zorba,

you are in great form again today; your jokes make us laugh all the time. Have you considered starting a second career as a comedian? No, actually, a second career as a psychologist, and a third as a comedian. You definitely have the talent for it! :)
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:14 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Reading the MeredithKercherFund site was invigorating. May sound harsh, but I'd almost completely given up on any hope of justice for Meredith. The site seems as though the Family is given encouraging info and they would keep constant contact with the prosecution team. The Family also made it very clear they believe Amanda was present and a participant.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:50 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

zorba wrote:
Hey Guer when I translated that, it was like following a piece of Baroque music on my guitar and have these sounds I never could have designed myself, pop out, the very wording, ''not DIGESTED'', I mean, DAMN IT, THOSE ITALIANS CAN BE SHARP, that one word summed the lot up, just like that.


Hi to everyone, I just re-watched the Lifetime movie. I had to watch that movie again, because I got curious after reading Italian reviews of the film. And I agree wholeheartedly, Zorba, those Italians can be very sharp indeed. There is more sting/bite in their reviews. They make some poignant observations through their rather biting tone.

I've been trying to improve Google translations of a couple of blog posts/articles Max linked to earlier this week, and I still can't make sense of some expressions that can't be translated literally. Here is one, for example:

Quote:
Italy, however, has taken in the fish's face [?] when Hayden Panettiere, in the role of Amanda, says that "everything is illegal in Italy but nothing is forbidden."


Is the bolded part an equivalent of "sour", "become bitter", "get ballistic" or anything like that?

Anyway, I'm dropping in to post these translations as they are right now; no time for further corrections or improvements. Hey Zorba, maybe you could try your hand at translating this one? Actually, there are two articles/blog posts. The second is more interesting.

No.1.

Amanda Knox, Canale 5 ricade nella trappola del "film-verità"

Amanda Knox, Channel 5 falls into the trap of "film-truth"

Last year, we enjoyed the movie on the subject of "The crime in Via Poma" on a technical level, but we were quite skeptical that a product like that was really necessary, given that the process [trial] was still ongoing.

The same feeling emerges when watching "Amanda Knox," the TV movie that depicts the crime of Perugia and the trial in the Court of First Instance. The differences in production with Italian fiction can be noticed, but the basics, the original idea is always the same: a desire to talk about one of the most controversial court cases in Italy but without the ability to have a closure. For the simple reason that the end of this story is yet to come.

It makes sense, therefore, to reconstruct the arrival and life of Amanda Knox in Italy. The operation is thus shown to be of dubious value, a trap set up [by the director] for the audience in the hope to be able to shed light on the ideas on a case that undoubtedly drew upon itself the attention of the public, but also [a trap] for Channel 5 itself, which finds itself facing accusations of wanting to speculate on a true story that is still "hot", for proposing a more American perspective, which tends to attack the Italian legal system regardless of whether the main character is guilty or not.

TV movies such as "Amanda Knox", putting aside the quality of the product - but do not be fooled by the fact that it is an American production as it is not enough to mark it ‘Made in the USA’ to make it a good work - indeed, clash with the reality of facts and versions told by the protagonists, creating a disturbing effect that is not required.

If the news and in-depth programs at least had the excuse of having to inform the public about the new process [trial], productions such as these leave us, after we watched them, more stunned than convinced that we have witnessed an attempt to get closer to the truth.


http://www.tvblog.it/post/119545/amanda-knox-film-canale-5-recensione
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:25 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

No.2

Kercher murder, the film "Amanda Knox" shown for the first time in Italy. “Free spirit” among many stereotypes

ROME - Nearly two years after the release of the film in America, it landed last night in prime time on Channel 5 as a premiere of "Amanda Knox", the Italian version of the film "Amanda Knox: Murder on Trial in Italy", which recounts the adventures of Foxy Knoxy accused and convicted in the first degree of the murder of Meredith Kercher, along with Raffaele Sollecito and Rudy Guede. It would be alright, if it were not for a blatant presentation of Knox as a clean and perfect girl, constantly in tears and harassed by the Italian justice system defined as “absolutely crazy” in a line, pronounced in the movie by the actress who plays the mother of Amanda.

Watching "Amanda Knox" so long not only after the end of the first trial, but also of the appeal that acquitted the American and Raffaele Sollecito of murder, is doubly funny. On the one hand, there is the passing of time that has an effect on the reality of the story, or rather the fiction, the reality that saw Amanda, many months ago, go back to America and Raffaele Sollecito (who is from Bari) withdraw to Bisceglie.

On the other hand, there is a steady flow of stereotypes that the film director Robert Dornhelm presents: not only all the traditional stereotypes of Italian justice, depicted as sloppy, siding with the prosecution, and even racist (see the sequence of the 13 hour-interrogation of Amanda in which investigators seek to put in the mouth of the American the name of Patrick Lumumba), but also stereotypes regarding representation of the protagonist.

Beautiful in real life as in this fictional story (played by Hayden Panettiere), Amanda with tears running down her face is painted in such a way that we tend to attribute any kind of endearment to her: petite, tender [tenerina], innocent [innocentina], culpable [colpevolina], in short, it is important that her image automatically invokes an adjective that ends with a diminutive suffix. This would, perhaps, make her in the viewer's eyes incapable of sticking a knife into the throat of a friend, as suggested by the prosecution. Let us not forget, in fact, that the film was released in the middle of the appeal process. Knox is, however, described as a victim of the Italian justice system that purports to at least be open-minded; here it says so.

It is the same with Raffaele Sollecito, aka Paolo Romio, who calls Amanda "a free spirit" [spirito libero], an Amanda who was imprisoned, almost like a bird in a cage, in a cold cell in which she hardly would have been able to do cartwheels or pirouettes.
[ :) ]

Amanda, who describes the period before the Kercher murder as "the best time of my life", finds herself in a new reality to which the door is “different”, as told by her father in a line from the movie.

Tears and sobs finally take possession of Amanda when it comes to the final lines that make her look almost like a little girl in search of answers, such as "Why is everyone against me?"

Amanda's final appeal, pathos of one thousand percent consumes the American [actress] (as the director had intended ...) : her acting of fake Knox puts it halfway between that of Evita / Madonna in the "Do not cry for me Argentina" and Jessica Rabbit from "Who Framed Roger Rabbit." And she always sheds a few tears that always have an effect. Then she is sentenced to 26 years. But the rest is the history of the Italian courts.

Knox's lawyers, Carlo della Vedova and Luciano Ghirga did not want the film to be shown because they believed its contents to be "highly damaging to the dignity of Amanda." They were supposed to prevent the film being screened [to stop Monday's scheduled screening of the movie]; however, its screening on the other hand offers such a stereotypical image of Italy that "To Rome With Love" by Woody Allen looks like a cool documentary in comparison. Italy, however, has taken in the fish's face [?] when Hayden Panettiere, in the role of Amanda, says that "everything is illegal in Italy but nothing is forbidden."


Il Quotidiano Italiano
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:30 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

max wrote:
Ergon wrote:
Tweeted by Andrea Vogt:

Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt
Today's "Oggi" gossip mag features interview w/ #amandaknox in a Seattle cafe. Says she's "still tormented by her Perugian scars."

It seems that 'interview' was by Francesco Sforza. The case has just become very, very, interesting.

So was this even true or made up? Didn't he have an imaginary 'interview' with her before in jail? I don't believe a word of this. Where is this interview?


According to Bettina/tamale, Frank did meet Amanda Knox in Seattle. So I happen to believe he did meet her at the cafe. The interview is in the print issue of Oggi magazine. More to come, once we get all the facts in and double check.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:53 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Clander has posted scans of all three pages of Sfarzo's article published in this week's issue of Oggi. Here they are:

Image

Image

Image
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:25 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

The 411 has translated bits of the article. A brief 'summary':

Post by The 411 » 08 Dec 2012, 17:30

According to Frank's account...TANGERINE TROUSERS (James Terrano) was AK's first (i.e., The ORIGINAL) boyfriend...the one "she went back to."

...according to Frank's article, James has been doing cooking for AK, while she writes her book.

According to Frank...ORIGINALLY, AK had been planning to spend a single month--July 2007-- in Italy. She wanted to study creative writing--in ROME!!

Only later did AK decide that she needed to learn Italian-- FIRST. And that's when she changed her plans and decided on a calmer place to learn the language--Perugia.

Oh, and one last thing ...Frank sez another matter that will be covered in her book is that "bunny-shaped" key holder that was given to AK as a going-away gift by her gal pal Brett--you know, the one that, according to Frank...the Perugia police tried to lie about "and say that it was a vibrator."

Poverina! Why does everyone keep bringing that up?!?!? Why did the Perugian police try to pervert a perfectly innocent parting present ?!!

Another instance of AK being a victim of Perugian police presumptions...Why do they KEEP ON BRINGING IT UP???!!

Back in Seattle...Frank reports that a few months after AK and TT started shacking up, the flat below their place--in AK's apartment building-- was vacated.

And that's when MAD-PAX moved in the apartment below... with HER "boyfriend"---"Charles."


http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?p=123593#p123593

Post by The 411 » 08 Dec 2012, 19:13

A passage from the Oggi article:

"The title [of Amanda's book] was chosen after long negotiations. Amanda selected quite a few. "But not even one of those worked." In the end it was a Harpers Collins editor who selected Waiting to be Heard (in Italian In Attesa di Essere Ascoltata) and that was the solution that convinced everybody."


http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?p=123600#p123600

Post by The 411 » 09 Dec 2012, 03:53

In the article...
Under the heading SAREBBE DOVUTA ANDARE A ROMA (i.e. SHE WAS SUPPOSED TO HAVE GONE TO ROME) Frank wrote:

"Today, instead, we go into a caffe'. It seems to be a caffe` like any other: in reality, Amanda tells me: "Here, it was right here... where I sat with my parents when I asked for permission to go to Italy." This, too, is a page from her book, from which we will learn that Amanda, who, in order to complete her memoir, "froze" ("congelato") her studies in English literature: she had come to Italy to learn how to write. At the time, she had been working in an art gallery and had saved up a decent amount for her year abroad. However she still asked her parents. The plan was to go to Rome, to attend, in July, a course in creative writing.

First, however, she had to learn Italian well. And to do this, Amanda chose peaceful Perugia. Things, however, as we know, turned out differently."


http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?p=123623#p123623
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Offline Emerald


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:37 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Wow! Amanda's propensity for lying shows no end.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:44 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

This is a load of BS, in my opinion. She is "Waiting to be Heard." for all this time, and this is the best she could come up with? Look. Here is the very actual same booth where we sat when I told my parents I wanted to go to Italy? Come on, anybody really believe there was an interview and this was all that came out of it? Frank really should have gone for broke and asked Knox to show him the pencils she uses whem she writes. Now that would have been a scoop.
Best thing about this is, if Frank has half a brain, he knows he's being sidelined. He is only going to get crumbs, if that, from here on out.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Yeah, the poor woman is touched,

I betchya, that, she still wanders around in Seattle showing off her Italian, saying words like the odd one here and there, thrown in for ego tripping measure, and which nobody f-ing understands.

Talking with an over-exaggerated Italian accent, that is simply not Italian, that particular exercise in ego-trippery.

Anyway, just reading about 3 words of the above was enough for me along with her out and about with Cololonel Paxman,

Just the square outlining format of the bits above is enough for me, and seeing Sollecito's brother Sfarzo Loud was enough of a deterrent.

The only person making such a fuss about her sex toy, is her, who gives a fly swirling shite, I certainly don't, it had nothing to do with that, it had everything to do with her lack of manners.
What I don't understand is why she said Mom, that's nothing, what's all the fuss about, one teensy weensy sex toy, hey, here's ya Christmas present, Chantal's Porn Shop selection 2013, all of it is yours mom, open ya presents, open ya presents, go on mom, do it, do it now.. all that fuss about a little toy, here ma get on Cyborg 57, it has 25 different speeds.

And this one mom, it has its own ignition key, kick starter and fuel tank, don't forget to fill it up or you'll be left high n dry.

Thank you child, all that fuss about a little old sex toy.
Ma, a 100 gallon drum of lube is on its way, little toy, what's all the fuss?
Mom: Why indeed, if I'd have known they'd make such a fuss I'd never have given you it for your birthday to start with.

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Offline louiehaha


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:33 pm   Post subject: Re: THE FATAL GIFT OF BEAUTY REVIEW   

Ergon wrote:
If you want to understand the psychology of Amanda Knox, you need to study Edda Mellas. She, Mellas has deep reservoirs of rage and jealousy. Having to fight for support, seeing her husband start another family with his girlfriend, brings up more information about the psychological baggage of Amanda Knox.


Knox reveals a lot about her disturbing family dynamics in “The Model”, where a thirteen year old girl from a broken home lashes out at her mother for abandoning her in favor of her own pursuits. Interestingly, there are no sisters or stepmother in this story (heads up ladies), only Amanda (Aislin), Edda (Nadya Parker), Curt (David), and Chris (Malcom).

Aislin pranks her mother by sending a few candid’s in an envelope to her at the office late at night. The gullible, weepy, and inept Nadya totally falls for the prank, rushes home to make sure her daughter is okay, and tells her she believes she’s being stalked by an old lover (Malcom). She tells Aislin to pack, they are fleeing their home and spending the night at David’s. Aislin mocks her “it’s always about you” and protests but eventually obliges her mother’s order to go upstairs and pack. Her mother marvels that Aislin remembers her schoolbag (always the good student theme). Aislin tells her mom, "You're such a bitch."

In The Model, Amanda’s prank is designed to evoke a feeling of regret in Edda, and succeeds. Creepily, Knox also wondered if Meredith might have felt some sort of REGRET as she lay dying after being sexually humiliated, tortured, and fatally wounded. From the seized prison diary: I know my friend was raped before she was murdered. I can only imagine how she must have felt at these moments, scared, hurt, violated. But even more I have to imagine what it must have felt like when she felt her blood flowing out of her. What must she have thought? About her mom? Regret? Did she have time to come to a moment of peace or did she only experience terror in the end?’

Here, Amanda writes about the regret Aislin's mother should feel as the result of the prank.
Quote:
Hot tears blurred my vision and my hands began to tremble. I felt her cold fingers touch mine again, felt myself rip my hand away. Broken. I hadn't known. "I might have lost her." I muttered. I was trembling all over now, muffling my words. I felt like a helpless child, blinded and sniffling snot. "I want to ask her things, I want to talk to her, but I don't know how to begin. How are you supposed to start something like that if it was supposed to be there forever? What am I supposed to say?"



After David says he’s going to call the police, Aislin reluctantly reveals herself as the author of the shenanigans.
Quote:
Aislin pulled her backpack towards her. Sniffling she unzipped the top and her fingers brushed through the insides. I watched with my mouth slightly open, and she pulled out a small rectangle of shiny paper. She pushed it facedown towards me across the carpet and watched me as I picked it up, as I turned it slowly over in my hands. I was afraid of what I'd see and what it meant. If Malcolm had taken pictures of her, how far had he gone? What had he done to me and to her?

The picture was of her, but it was different from what I thought I'd see. It was her face, her glassy eyes penetrating me with a hard, desperate, tear-stained stare. Her arms extended outward from her body, towards me from the picture, framing it, her hands not visible because they were behind the camera, pulling the trigger. My heart slowed and I put the picture aside, facedown and away from us. I took my fingers again and put them through her hair, touching her head and drawing patterns there. She closed her eyes and leaned back into my fingers, drawing her face up, letting it relax. "I'm sorry too," she said.


Some prankster, that Amanda, huh?
Will she prank again?
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Offline louiehaha


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

So Frank wrote another OGGI article from Seattle? Cha-ching! More revenue for the US treasury! Any one care to put a gue$$imate on the two articles? Uncle Sam needs you!

Did Heavey continue the $300 month payment to Frank while he was in the US? I'm sure he'll file the appropriate tax forms if so.

Why aren't the Knoxii buzzing around denying the interview with Knox took place, like they took to denying Knox wrote the screenplay to the H.O.T. video? It doesn't make sense.
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Offline louiehaha


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ergon wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
Interesting conversation taking place on .org today with regard to Meredith's jeans.
I think that the Groupies should ponder the question of how a Lone Wolf would have removed them that they didn't turn inside out. And, if Guede pulled them cuff-first, where is the blood from his hands on the cuff portion? Just an unscientific observation.


Sigh. I really ought to rest more often, which is why I wrote to you and daisy steiner at the same time :)

The discussion about Meredith wearing her boyfriend's jeans? Keep in mind the source of that meme is the testimony of Raffaele Sollecito, who might well have misunderstood the North American (and U.K.) term "boyfriend jeans" which is a generic style of women's jeans, sold by Levi http://us.levi.com/family/index.jsp?categoryId=3520905 Gap, Old Navy and many other stores.

A style that I, as the proud dad of three young women, well ought to know :)


Sollecito misunderstood and thought that Meredith's was in a continuing relationship with her English ex-boyfriend because that is what Knox wanted him to believe.

Quote:
The night before we left, I noticed she was chatting on Facebook with an American friend. I asked who he was. Right away, she explained that she, like Meredith, had left behind a boyfriend when she came to Italy. His name was David Johnsrud, known as D.J., and they were still in regular contact.

Gumbel, Andrew; Sollecito, Raffaele (2012-09-18). Honor Bound (Kindle Locations 280-282). Simon & Schuster, Inc.. Kindle Edition.


I believe she would also be the source of any intentional misrepresentation about the jeans, possibly to agitate him into a rage directed at Meredith.


Last edited by louiehaha on Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline louiehaha


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Here is an interesting quote by Edda, that reveals a lot about her character. It's from the taped prison interview on November 17, 2007, and she appears to be coaching AK on how to weave her story:

Quote:
She told her parents that Raffaele’s lawyers wanted the two of them to appear together before a judge but she would probably refuse. ‘Basically, if you two went back to the original story, before they started hitting you and all the rest—’ Edda said.

Amanda interrupted her: ‘When they said that I’d have been sent to prison for thirty years, and I didn’t know what was happening …’

Follain, John (2012-08-21). A Death in Italy: The Definitive Account of the Amanda Knox Case (Kindle Locations 2481-2486). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.


There's no reason for Edda to have coached her daughter on her alibi if AK were innocent in fact. She comes across as deceitful and willing to subvert justice very early on.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

louiehaha wrote:
Ergon wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
Interesting conversation taking place on .org today with regard to Meredith's jeans.
I think that the Groupies should ponder the question of how a Lone Wolf would have removed them that they didn't turn inside out. And, if Guede pulled them cuff-first, where is the blood from his hands on the cuff portion? Just an unscientific observation.


Sigh. I really ought to rest more often, which is why I wrote to you and daisy steiner at the same time :)

The discussion about Meredith wearing her boyfriend's jeans? Keep in mind the source of that meme is the testimony of Raffaele Sollecito, who might well have misunderstood the North American (and U.K.) term "boyfriend jeans" which is a generic style of women's jeans, sold by Levi http://us.levi.com/family/index.jsp?categoryId=3520905 Gap, Old Navy and many other stores.

A style that I, as the proud dad of three young women, well ought to know :)


Sollecito misunderstood and thought that Meredith's was in a continuing relationship with her English ex-boyfriend because that is what Knox wanted him to believe.

Quote:
The night before we left, I noticed she was chatting on Facebook with an American friend. I asked who he was. Right away, she explained that she, like Meredith, had left behind a boyfriend when she came to Italy. His name was David Johnsrud, known as D.J., and they were still in regular contact.

Gumbel, Andrew; Sollecito, Raffaele (2012-09-18). Honor Bound (Kindle Locations 280-282). Simon & Schuster, Inc.. Kindle Edition.


I believe she would also be the source of any intentional misrepresentation about the jeans, possibly to agitate him into a rage directed at Meredith.


I get the impression that the entire conversation surrounding Meredith's jeans was some form of misdirect. This bit of information may have been shared by the two after the murder, in order to 'flesh out' their story of the day before the murder. It's not the type thing that one normally has a conversation about with a room mate of a new conquest.

My own concern about Meredith's jeans involves their position after the murder. They are not inside out. Think a minute about removing jeans from another person. Struggling upright, or mortally wounded and prone. (Sorry to be indelicate).
Can't see how these jeans were removed during the murder.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Is there an itemised list of all the clothes found in the washer on the morning of November 02?
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

There was fair deal of coaching and backtracking in all the taped conversations, louiehaha.
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Francesco Sforza a.k.a. Frank Sfarzo and Raffaele Sollecito are planning their next trip to the U.S. for New Years Eve.


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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Nell, I think you are going to have to work on some sort of Zorba Warning. Three of them in one screenshot!
Close your eyes, Zorba.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Nell wrote:
Francesco Sforza a.k.a. Frank Sfarzo and Raffaele Sollecito are planning their next trip to the U.S. for New Years Eve.


Like Frank's last trip turned out so well :)
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Napia5 wrote:
Nell, I think you are going to have to work on some sort of Zorba Warning. Three of them in one screenshot!
Close your eyes, Zorba.


I apologise! :D


Sfarzo's following remark attracted my attention: "Funny that everyone says 'Raffele cannot come' ....".
Everyone? Who is everyone? In that particular thread only Michelle Moore said that Raffaele might not be able to visit because of his studies. Sfarzo's comment could be interpreted as if he accuses supporters of discouraging Raffaele Sollecito from coming back to the U.S.

Duly noted.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:18 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Really have to chuckle over this, Nell. Open and above-board about this trip. Remember the last one? The trip to the woods, or whatever. Wanted to be hush-hush about their plans. Feared some possible violence or something. Guess they finally figured out that we're not the group to be afraid of!!!
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Apologies if posted before.

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/celebrityc ... uthorchats
Interview with Gumbel starts at about 15:00.
He explains, among other things, how Vanessa was railroaded.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:41 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

I sometimes find the weirdest things on the inter nets while searching for news on this case.

The 'Angels of Death': 10 beautiful and dangerous killers
http://de10.com.mx/historia-mitos/2012/ ... 15480.html (Mexican I think)
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Offline Emerald


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

I still cannot understand declaring Amanda "beautiful" or "innocent looking". It's as though someone should be able to murder and commit heinous, violent crimes because of the way they look.

Question..... Does this next level only consider the evidence presented in the trial? For instance, can they reexamine the evidence 'tossed out' by the lower courts (ie. the numerous admissions in writing and on tape by Amanda)?
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

They consider whether the Hellman court applied the law properly or not, Emerald. Evidence that was not considered or reviewed properly may be taken into consideration and will affect their decision.

They must also review Knox's appeal against the callunia conviction, and the Kercher's lawyer will also have something to say about how the evidence was interpreted.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:10 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Been much too overworked to put pen to paper (finger 2 key)

the last few days so wrote then destroyed

but
was thinking about how it is that dysfunctional persons are happy in one another's company, feeling then normal, yet what they get up to, potentially, sometimes, all together, shows sometimes they'll do things they never would have done (gotten up to) alone

now who do I remind you of, yes, I thought so, I heard this out of the corner of my ear, while working, it so typified the phenomenon of those people who latch onto the Sollecito the Knox, I mean the dysfunction they are, attracts them to one another, they're much like blue bottle flies on a cow patty, buzzing about, they all want a piece of the shit

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:20 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Okay,

an important and most vital fact to understand,

is that whereas in British and American law,

where individuals are left lots of discretion,

working within their particular fields,

to choose what to do,

meaning they are free to interpret the law in a way they chose,

meaning, a policeman can make a deal with a suspect and in court the judge can accept these agreements made between culprit and police/prosecutor, then decide on a sentence,
that could mean a slap on the wrist or life without the possibility of parole, in Italy,

individuals are not allowed this freedom,

this because it is viewed as a way for the rules to be bent,
and for individuals to exert too much personal influence on matters that are far too complicated and serious for that would mean that the law would be too free and too open to corruption.

This means, if the laws have not been carried out as prescribed by the judiciary and upheld by the constitution,
then a court has no authority to say,
well, it's okay,
I will send you all home,

at the moment a policeman or prosecutor or a judge is aware of a crime or a particular circumstance,
those individuals must follow the rule of law,
or fail to do so and break the law themselves by defying those rules.

So if the law has not been observed in this case,
the court has no choice but to act,
they cannot, in some far flung way, say, ah, well, let's forget it,
you can all go (she looks nice, they are students),
no there are set rules and this is exactly why the Supreme Court exists too,
so the rules for such a matter mean they have no choice but to act in accordance with the prescribed measures as dictated by law,
not by themselve and not of their own accord; if any factor was incorrect, they must act, and follow the guidelines, not just start making their own ones up.

If what the good prosecutor wrote, is real and true, then the case MUST be REVERSED.

Should this case also be directed back to court, then all of the jolly rogers like Sollecito, mocking the whole thing with his MF episodes in America with CFace Frank are surely going to help Sollecito and Knox... yeah sure man, and Knox,
yeah,
she is equally a blithering idiot,
thinking she can hide away,
yet bring out books,
lie to the world including her family
and
think that if things get turned around,
she is going to be coming up roses.

Idiots all.

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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Just found this:

La Guardia di Amanda Knox sarà rinviata a giudizio per l'accusa di violenze sessuali a una detenuta. L'agente si difende: "Non l'ho mai toccata"
L'agente si difende: "Non l'ho mai toccata"

http://www.lanazione.it/umbria/cronaca/ ... knox.shtml

rough google translation:

HOMEPAGE> Umbria> The Guard Amanda Knox will be prosecuted on charges of sexual assault on a prisoner. Agent defends himself: "I've never touched"

Perugia, December 12, 2012 - Twenty days after the testimony before the court held that the prosecution of sexual violence the former deputy commander of the prison huts, Raffaele Argirò, the prosecutor Maximum Casucci closes investigation against the inspector (now retired) . And 'the prelude to the request for a hearing that will come in the coming weeks.

Argirò, accompanied by his lawyer Daniela Paccoi, went in the meantime attorney to tell the truth to the judge that the accused also of extortion: "I never touched that former policewoman held, the regulation does not allow men to enter the cells of the arm feminine. " The defender has already said you do not want to opt for alternative rites: this means that the inspector will open the doors of a long process during which they will be called to witness "all his colleagues and other inmates."

The woman injured in the process it should become a civil party, told agents of the judicial police section of the alleged rapes happened in the cell only years later. The charges relate to incidents that took place in fact, between December 2006 and January 2007, when the same was held on charges from which was subsequently acquitted.

The name of Argirò was published by the "Sun" after another excellent acquittal, that of Amanda Knox, who wrote a memoir in which that agent "often talked about sex" and summoned at night in his office. This story, however, there is no confirmation, the lawyers of the same Amanda have distanced themselves from those statements and has not even made a quick mention in the interrogation of December 5. According Argirò the traffic warden in Milan was thus "invented everything."
Enzo Beretta
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

zorba wrote:
Okay,

an important and most vital fact to understand,

is that whereas in British and American law,

where individuals are left lots of discretion,

working within their particular fields,

to choose what to do,

meaning they are free to interpret the law in a way they chose,

meaning, a policeman can make a deal with a suspect and in court the judge can accept these agreements made between culprit and police/prosecutor, then decide on a sentence,
that could mean a slap on the wrist or life without the possibility of parole, in Italy,

individuals are not allowed this freedom,

this because it is viewed as a way for the rules to be bent,
and for individuals to exert too much personal influence on matters that are far too complicated and serious for that would mean that the law would be too free and too open to corruption.

This means, if the laws have not been carried out as prescribed by the judiciary and upheld by the constitution,
then a court has no authority to say,
well, it's okay,
I will send you all home,

at the moment a policeman or prosecutor or a judge is aware of a crime or a particular circumstance,
those individuals must follow the rule of law,
or fail to do so and break the law themselves by defying those rules.

So if the law has not been observed in this case,
the court has no choice but to act,
they cannot, in some far flung way, say, ah, well, let's forget it,
you can all go (she looks nice, they are students),
no there are set rules and this is exactly why the Supreme Court exists too,
so the rules for such a matter mean they have no choice but to act in accordance with the prescribed measures as dictated by law,
not by themselve and not of their own accord; if any factor was incorrect, they must act, and follow the guidelines, not just start making their own ones up.

If what the good prosecutor wrote, is real and true, then the case MUST be REVERSED.

Should this case also be directed back to court, then all of the jolly rogers like Sollecito, mocking the whole thing with his MF episodes in America with CFace Frank are surely going to help Sollecito and Knox... yeah sure man, and Knox,
yeah,
she is equally a blithering idiot,
thinking she can hide away,
yet bring out books,
lie to the world including her family
and
think that if things get turned around,
she is going to be coming up roses.

Idiots all.


Yes, Zorba. You are saying what I have been trying to put words to.
As you know, we in the United States have had our share of very public, media-interested court cases.
Simpson and Anthony, Peterson, and, to a smaller degree, the Menendez brothers.

While these cases surely fall under the description of 'public', one would stop short of labelling them as 'political'.
These cases were so closely and so widely watched, and dissected, that some of them became a make or break for the careers of the major players.

However, these cases were not political in the sense of the Government of the United States poking about, putting pressure to bear on the outcomes. I personally view the Knox/Sollecito trial in the same way. While there has been some voicing by some high-visibility people (Donald Trump), this fact alone does not make the case a political hot button in terms of intervention by the United States. It is my understanding that the State Department was kept abreast of the procedure, and found nothing worthy of sanction.

Where, then, does this become political? I have no personal knowledge of the lay of the land in Italy, but, from my readings, Dr. Galati is a highly respected member of the Italian legal system. He has publicly stated the he is 'very convinced' of the guilt of Sollecito and Knox. Would the Italians then throw him under the bus, so to speak, by rubber-stamping Hellman? Are there such strong political underpinnings that their own esteemed colleagues would be treated as more grist for the mill? To satisfy what bigger political picture? I'm not seeing it.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Has there been any news yet on when the Meredith Kercher Fund webpage will be totally operational?
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

The fund's still in the early stages, Napia5. There will be some fundraising events TBA. It should be building up in the new year.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

@zorba I agree with you but will wait on what I add till I get another key board :-)

Suffice to say what another person wrote. Every thing is political.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Napia5 wrote:
zorba wrote:
Okay,

an important and most vital fact to understand,

is that whereas in British and American law,

where individuals are left lots of discretion,

working within their particular fields,

to choose what to do,

meaning they are free to interpret the law in a way they chose,

meaning, a policeman can make a deal with a suspect and in court the judge can accept these agreements made between culprit and police/prosecutor, then decide on a sentence,
that could mean a slap on the wrist or life without the possibility of parole, in Italy,

individuals are not allowed this freedom,

this because it is viewed as a way for the rules to be bent,
and for individuals to exert too much personal influence on matters that are far too complicated and serious for that would mean that the law would be too free and too open to corruption.

This means, if the laws have not been carried out as prescribed by the judiciary and upheld by the constitution,
then a court has no authority to say,
well, it's okay,
I will send you all home,

at the moment a policeman or prosecutor or a judge is aware of a crime or a particular circumstance,
those individuals must follow the rule of law,
or fail to do so and break the law themselves by defying those rules.

So if the law has not been observed in this case,
the court has no choice but to act,
they cannot, in some far flung way, say, ah, well, let's forget it,
you can all go (she looks nice, they are students),
no there are set rules and this is exactly why the Supreme Court exists too,
so the rules for such a matter mean they have no choice but to act in accordance with the prescribed measures as dictated by law,
not by themselve and not of their own accord; if any factor was incorrect, they must act, and follow the guidelines, not just start making their own ones up.

If what the good prosecutor wrote, is real and true, then the case MUST be REVERSED.

Should this case also be directed back to court, then all of the jolly rogers like Sollecito, mocking the whole thing with his MF episodes in America with CFace Frank are surely going to help Sollecito and Knox... yeah sure man, and Knox,
yeah,
she is equally a blithering idiot,
thinking she can hide away,
yet bring out books,
lie to the world including her family
and
think that if things get turned around,
she is going to be coming up roses.

Idiots all.


Yes, Zorba. You are saying what I have been trying to put words to.
As you know, we in the United States have had our share of very public, media-interested court cases.
Simpson and Anthony, Peterson, and, to a smaller degree, the Menendez brothers.

While these cases surely fall under the description of 'public', one would stop short of labelling them as 'political'.
These cases were so closely and so widely watched, and dissected, that some of them became a make or break for the careers of the major players.

However, these cases were not political in the sense of the Government of the United States poking about, putting pressure to bear on the outcomes. I personally view the Knox/Sollecito trial in the same way. While there has been some voicing by some high-visibility people (Donald Trump), this fact alone does not make the case a political hot button in terms of intervention by the United States. It is my understanding that the State Department was kept abreast of the procedure, and found nothing worthy of sanction.

Where, then, does this become political? I have no personal knowledge of the lay of the land in Italy, but, from my readings, Dr. Galati is a highly respected member of the Italian legal system. He has publicly stated the he is 'very convinced' of the guilt of Sollecito and Knox. Would the Italians then throw him under the bus, so to speak, by rubber-stamping Hellman? Are there such strong political underpinnings that their own esteemed colleagues would be treated as more grist for the mill? To satisfy what bigger political picture? I'm not seeing it.


Hi, Napia5. You're right that the OJ Simpson and Casey Anthony trial were not political. On the other hand, I think the trial of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito had many levels of political interference we were able to observe, even if not quite prove.

The placement of Judge Hellmann and his perverse ruling (which I think his co judge Zanetti had even more of a say in) was just the tip of the iceberg. You have the judges vs Berlusconi war going on in the backgoround, you have Berlusconi's party member Giulia Bongiorno who just happens to be the chair of Parliament's judiciary committee, and you have the fact that Raffaele's aunt and family are prominent supporters of the neo-fascist party groupings who Berlusconi must depend on to maintain his hold on Italian politics ( a fact glossed over in Raffaele's book, which gives the impression of kinder, gentler descendants of Mussolini)

Politics also comes into play when we see who is treated with tender care, and who, not. At what point do we see special treatment given to the rich kid, the family friends of influential politicians? To the white American whose supporters seem to have some influence on American politicians? (Though that last seems to have evaporated)

In the end, the decision will, I believe be based on the law, and the law must be applied regardless of politics. Alas, that is not always the case.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ergon, that's the part that becomes so frustrating. The Italian political wheels. To me it's pretty obvious that there is no American intervention, as evidenced by the article max posted and Zorba translated. The Perugians are unhappy with the Seattle interference. So, on that level, the political pressure between countries seems not to be working.

The Italians, amongst themselves, that's different. I don't understand all of the nuances of their structure, and don't grasp how high up the ladder these things might go.

It's like mentioning a Kennedy. One might immediately think of political pressure being applied in a case concerning one of them, (whether it would be or not, one would still consider it). But, with this much visibility, how high could it go? Do you see what I mean?
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ergon wrote:
...and you have the fact that Raffaele's aunt and family are prominent supporters of the neo-fascist party groupings who Berlusconi must depend on to maintain his hold on Italian politics ( a fact glossed over in Raffaele's book, which gives the impression of kinder, gentler descendants of Mussolini)


As is Frank Sforza ;)

_________________
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THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:04 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Napia5 wrote:
The Italians, amongst themselves, that's different. I don't understand all of the nuances of their structure, and don't grasp how high up the ladder these things might go.


As they say about understanding how Italy works (or doesn't): In Italy it's not what you know, but who you know.

And from my experience of this case, I'd say there's a bit of that going on across the pond in Seattle too. Or maybe there, it just depends whether you happen to have gone to the same school as the sons and daughters of the Seattle elites or not.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:48 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Michael wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
The Italians, amongst themselves, that's different. I don't understand all of the nuances of their structure, and don't grasp how high up the ladder these things might go.


As they say about understanding how Italy works (or doesn't): In Italy it's not what you know, but who you know.

And from my experience of this case, I'd say there's a bit of that going on across the pond in Seattle too. Or maybe there, it just depends whether you happen to have gone to the same school as the sons and daughters of the Seattle elites or not.


Pretty much the way it works in quite a few places, from my experience. Not a very moral way to be IMO, but there it is. Plant one of them in Wyoming and they would be quick to find out that nobody ever heard of them. These type power structures are pretty much localized. I think if the good judge moved his Rotary speech to the East Coast, he'd be met with quite a few eye-rolls. Just my opinion, of course.

Which is why I think that more visibility in the media hurts their situation in Italy, rather than helps. Galati did not make a luke-warm presentation. It's hard to see how he could be ignored. Maybe it''s just wishful thinking on my part.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:52 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ava wrote:
The name of Argirò was published by the "Sun" after another excellent acquittal, that of Amanda Knox, who wrote a memoir in which that agent "often talked about sex" and summoned at night in his office. This story, however, there is no confirmation, the lawyers of the same Amanda have distanced themselves from those statements and has not even made a quick mention in the interrogation of December 5. According Argirò the traffic warden in Milan was thus "invented everything."

Thanks Ava. How weird is that last part? No man should try to intimidate a woman, especially not by using his position in prison. No disagreements there I think. So here is the chance for AK and her lawyers to do something good for a change and support this woman and now the lawyers distance themselves? What is up with that? Too busy with other things?
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

The Meredith Kercher Fund website has been updated and it is now possible to make donations:

Quote:
Donations can be made to the following account 'The Meredith Kercher Fund Limited'

Sort Code 090128

Account Number 37515183

Donations from Abroad:

Donations can be made from abroad using the following details:

IBAN: GB33 ABBY 0901 2837 5151 83

Sort Code 090128

Account Number 37515183

Please note when making donations from abroad - if a single digit is wrong or missing the funds will not reach the account.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Hello sorry I haven't replied tidily to responses

but have been rather overworked,
to the point of breakdown,
what with unreasonably assigned projects,
where I'm hardly allowed to out my problems about the way work gets sent,
for instance,
spent all night,
like 6 in the evening until 2 the next day, working on a job,
that had been sent in by a client,
wanting back in a ridiculously short time,
and the guy then, coordinating,
sending me it but not understanding that the way it is being sent in,
costs a lot of work just to work out what the work is going to be.

So I have to compare all kinds of documents to find out exactly what to edit.

That I said this, led now to an argument and this young guy coordinaring, who is pretty new there, while being friendly on the one hand, understands nothing and turns it into a thing like where he just turned into an arrogant little shit, as I need the work and these people then are in a position of power, as so many people want the work; they know that, but they themselves have fixed salaries with commission on top, that gets paid to them on the basis of how little they can get people to do the work for, then the difference gets paid to them.

So I have been knackered all week, as one cannot just grab the lost sleep sand the no-eat back and there was other jobs to be done.

Then he sent me more texts, and I want to do them, but once again, he sent it, not saying how many words, and to even find that out then, with 5 documents means a lot of work, so the client is making their changes, sending that in, but it's fort someone else to find out what the changes are.

This coordinator sent me COMPARE documents, which is a function Word does, but it crossed out sentences only to refill them in immediately afterwards, and then in exactly the same was as they were, which led to a very messy set of documents. Now I said well I'm busy can you not highlight what needs editing in red, then I can extract that, paste it all into separate Word docs and see how many words it is.

He got back to me that he assigned the work to someone else, and that the number of words were 13.800, I've been working with this agency, about 8 years he is new, and so he gave that job to someone else, when all as I was asking for was to send me the work in an overviewable way.
The normal rate of words to work on per day is 2500, 13 almost 14000 is therefore a lot to do within 2 working days,
so it would have meant working all weekend again,
but instead of thinking with me,
and being a wonderfully considerate man,
the shithead simply gave it to someone else and started talking at me like I was being difficult and said he thought I was acting as though I think I am doing them a favour by taking the work, "When, I can assure you, he said, there re many others waiting to take this on."

Basically then, in this line of work you are only as good as your last job and totally dispensable, in fact, it's like pre-war days when workers had absolutely no rights.
Not a happy bunny right now, need a solution as this crap is going to kill me.

Working like this is totally isolating too, and it's so not me.
In the new year going to have to do something else as this is no life at all.

Yeah, I have no boss breathing down my next but you are left in a totally vulnerable position having to kiss ass frightened they'll just stop sending work.
Even saying anything is like dangerous.

This guy is telling me I'm stressed out, I'm not stressed, I'm exhausted, was that too from the job he sent me, he says no you need to have a rest,when, I know perfectly well how to rest but if he sends me jobs that will mean I will have to work all weekend, but he does not tell me that as he doesn't inform me of the workload, then I cannot see what I'm doing and it costs me so much time and energy and I'm left chained and bound to the computer.

I do not think I have been unreasonable but basically I have to accept everything, no matter how unreasonable or else I get called unreasonable and as a power trip, he simply and smugly goes and gives the work to someone else. Nice. Oh no problem man (he says to me) I've assigned it to someone else. He acts friendly but he's basically saying, well, look I'm the one with the power, look what I've done, I know you want and need the work, hey, you asked me a few questions because you became exhausted through having to do a rush job and stay up all night, so now I fuck with your mind and teach you a lesson, you have to be my dog.

Basically because it would have cost him a little work to send me the stuff in a format that I could see what it is that he wanted. So I'm certain the person he assigned it to will also have to work all weekend too, but instead of educating the client and letting them know that these documents take some time and that if you want so much done in such a short time it will perhaps mean putting two different people on it, and that may lead to different terms and whatever else, styles and whatever, he just kisses the client's butt and does not let them know what the work actually involves, they think you wave a wand and that's it.
Also, they spend months working on it themselves then expect you to do all of this work in a flash.i

So I lose more than 1000 euros on this one.

Thank god not all agencies are like this one, this one wants world domination, with their offices throughout Europe, in the UK and the USA, I have one new customer and she is far nicer, and communicates.

It's awful having to be the beggar, because this stuffs makes things that way, like you have no choices, like it or lump it.

Slave traders would have loved these lack of basic rights and total lack of responsibility from their side.

So that's why I've been unable to write anything.

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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

max wrote:
Ava wrote:
The name of Argirò was published by the "Sun" after another excellent acquittal, that of Amanda Knox, who wrote a memoir in which that agent "often talked about sex" and summoned at night in his office. This story, however, there is no confirmation, the lawyers of the same Amanda have distanced themselves from those statements and has not even made a quick mention in the interrogation of December 5. According Argirò the traffic warden in Milan was thus "invented everything."

Thanks Ava. How weird is that last part? No man should try to intimidate a woman, especially not by using his position in prison. No disagreements there I think. So here is the chance for AK and her lawyers to do something good for a change and support this woman and now the lawyers distance themselves? What is up with that? Too busy with other things?

Hi max. Yes, it's weird. Maybe AK's lawyers remembered that following their client's memories usually means trouble. And doing something good was never really an option, was it...
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Hi Zorba,

I am so sorry to hear about this. What you are describing reminds me of translating documents. Same thing: Despite having the file in digital format, they fax it to you rather than emailing it, which means you have to count the words manually, instead of using the program to do it with a click. Changes made in the original document are often not highlighted and they expect you to review both drafts to find out where the modifications are. Simply a waste of time, given that there is a more efficient way to do it. To top it all off, they needed the translation yesterday. Another familiar scenario is your boss had the document on his table for 3 months, but he leaves it to you 15 minutes before the deadline on a Friday afternoon.

The guy you dealt with obviously has an attitude and he chose to not move a finger, instead, putting the blame on you and then sending the work to someone else. I feel for you.
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Offline Ava


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Posts: 943

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Michael wrote:
Ergon wrote:
...and you have the fact that Raffaele's aunt and family are prominent supporters of the neo-fascist party groupings who Berlusconi must depend on to maintain his hold on Italian politics ( a fact glossed over in Raffaele's book, which gives the impression of kinder, gentler descendants of Mussolini)


As is Frank Sforza ;)


Really? Is that a new insight? Or maybe I've missed something, I'm not really into the FOA...
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ava wrote:
max wrote:
Ava wrote:
The name of Argirò was published by the "Sun" after another excellent acquittal, that of Amanda Knox, who wrote a memoir in which that agent "often talked about sex" and summoned at night in his office. This story, however, there is no confirmation, the lawyers of the same Amanda have distanced themselves from those statements and has not even made a quick mention in the interrogation of December 5. According Argirò the traffic warden in Milan was thus "invented everything."

Thanks Ava. How weird is that last part? No man should try to intimidate a woman, especially not by using his position in prison. No disagreements there I think. So here is the chance for AK and her lawyers to do something good for a change and support this woman and now the lawyers distance themselves? What is up with that? Too busy with other things?

Hi max. Yes, it's weird. Maybe AK's lawyers remembered that following their client's memories usually means trouble. And doing something good was never really an option, was it...


I would not like to see a prison guard convicted of anything based on Amanda Knox's testimony.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:26 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Nell wrote:
Hi Zorba,

I am so sorry to hear about this. What you are describing reminds me of translating documents. Same thing: Despite having the file in digital format, they fax it to you rather than emailing it, which means you have to count the words manually, instead of using the program to do it with a click. Changes made in the original document are often not highlighted and they expect you to review both drafts to find out where the modifications are. Simply a waste of time, given that there is a more efficient way to do it. To top it all off, they needed the translation yesterday. Another familiar scenario is your boss had the document on his table for 3 months, but he leaves it to you 15 minutes before the deadline on a Friday afternoon.

The guy you dealt with obviously has an attitude and he chose to not move a finger, instead, putting the blame on you and then sending the work to someone else. I feel for you.


Thanks Nell.

Exactly.

I now have to open those documents and yet again, find a way to look into it to recover what I actually did.

If I say anything about him, like complain, he will simply stop sending me work.

Indeed, this work is translation.


Basically, he is a lazy shit sending me the stuff that way, he thinks though that because he has had this job for something under a year now, he knows everything, he's so arrogant, while calling me man and all of this and acting friendly, yet now he just showed me he isn't as bright as he thinks he is, or friendly, because the client does need educating so that they'll understand how to get their documents tended to in the best way, and that is not as you also said, by leaving it for months or working on it months then expecting someone else to be able to get their head around it all within a few hours.

You know, I started thinking I'll send an email and say for this there is no charge, yeah, because he has yet again put me under pressure to work out what amount of work I did when he didn't even give me a clear picture of what the work was, if I showed you the COMPARE doc he sent, or 3 docs, you'd laugh as they were such a mess, but when I say something, he just blanks me on what he has no idea of.

Those docs this afternoon, 5, he sent them to me, in exactly the same way he gets sent them, but that firm is just getting us to do all the work, me or the person he just gave my work to, simply because I made some remarks and asked a few questions, so instead of them sending the bits that need translating and putting it in themselves, they send the entire document and then I have to compare it with one I already did, line for line checking, because the compare tool is pretty useless in my opinion.

Though I may give it a go in a minute as I'm tired and have to mess about now trying to work out how many words I did, however, it wasn't only words it was a lot of work comparing, and here's then where the client is getting away with sending tons of work, and not having to pay for it properly.
I could not get that through to him.

They change bits in the source language, in their original versions, however those changes do not, of course, mesh in with what the target language makes of things.
So even then, if they did bother highlighting the changes, it still wouldn't be the words I did, as I have to restructure entire paragraphs because of a few words, that no longer fit into what I already did for them.

A nightmare.
I tried to say it, and he like a smug dumbo, sends the work to someone else without even saying a thing to me beforehand.

I need to find a few other agencies, I have a few already it's just this one sends me most work but if I get enough other clients I am going to dump them, if I do not stop doing this work before that, as it is very isolating sat at a computer and then having to deal with nuts like this guy, who sent me the rush job, I mean, they wanted it back that very same say, in the end it took at least 20 hours, so he had not even looked at what it actually was, therefore he is not doing his job well, because he is accepting impossible to do jobs, I said I cannot do that today but then I had to work on it all night.

Anyway must stop, but it's good for me to at least tell someone, as he put me on a right downer.
I hate people who act all big mouthed & friendly-like, then screw you over like he just did with me, basically threatening me, with his, there are plenty of others, I can assure you.

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:27 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Hi Zorba, I'm sorry to hear how things are happening for you. Yeah, capitalism requires every layer of society to screw the person below them (lack of spirituality is also to blame)

Perhaps some more agencies to broaden your range? I suspect your agency head is lying when he says there's other people lined up. Employers hate to lose workers (though I know some who run their companies into the ground by failing to see you gotta treat your workers right) Best wishes anyway for the new year.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:38 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Hi, Zorba. It makes me sad to hear what you're going through. But, it also pisses me off. What is wrong with people? Used to be, this type was in the minority, and usually didn't last long at a job. Their numbers seem to be multiplying.
So sorry you had to bump into one of them. Hang in there.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:35 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Hello Everyone.

Thank you.

I just sent a price, after having to mess about trying to look into what I did and how to charge for it. This is why I wanted to be told the amount, or get him to get the client to send in the text they want done, not the entire document, because this way I have to spend hours comparing and lining stuff up.

Now too, was impossible to find exactly what I did and to convert that into a reasonable price, so now I've had to send a price, that reflects nothing of the amount of time and effort I had to put into it, and I had to do this now with this person putting me under pressure to have it done by this
morning. I just made some compare documents but though it highlights the changed texts, to extract all of that I would need to paste the lot bit by bit, which is yet again an entire job by itself. I started but gave up.

So, I wonder what this person that got sent the 5 documents will do, because I know it's a lot of work, and the person isn't familiar with these documents which I am and have been for a year or more and this is why it is insulting, even aggressive, what this creep just did, talk about power going to some people's heads.

I'm hoping the person that is doing it now makes a mess of it, because me I know the average daily word rate, and that amount, certainly means that person will have to work non-stop, all through the weekend, unless they are some super human machine, I mean it's nice to grab the work but I'm sure it will be pretty tough to get it all done, or maybe not the one-off time, but it's different when you are getting sent stuff at the maddest of hours, and then always rush jobs, they often send me stuff at mad times, and I often wonder are they sending me this now at 5 on a Friday because others they usually send most regular stuff to aren't available. Smaller companies communicate, and actually send all the work they get, to you, unlike agencies that are really big, taking on hundreds of people, seem to think they are some kind of high flying folk. I know what it is to work, I get up make coffee, my office is right here, no travelling, I work non-stop, hours on end, doing whatever it takes to get it done, just as I did Monday, and all as I was asking is for him to work it out better, I mean this editing business can be much more work than ordinary translating, with a complete translation you just translate the lot, then look at the word count, or you agree a price before, which they are fond of doing, which means you end up working under your word rate anyway, and lately they've been coming along with like really low rates, and as they do not tell you anything you can only guess what they are doing. I'm beginning to hate it, at least with these people. Anyway, 20 hours work and charging them 10.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:42 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ergon wrote:
Hi Zorba, I'm sorry to hear how things are happening for you. Yeah, capitalism requires every layer of society to screw the person below them (lack of spirituality is also to blame)

Perhaps some more agencies to broaden your range? I suspect your agency head is lying when he says there's other people lined up. Employers hate to lose workers (though I know some who run their companies into the ground by failing to see you gotta treat your workers right) Best wishes anyway for the new year.


You're right but it's very competitive.

Anyhow, I'm looking forward to sending a donation to the fund, something that will give me great pleasure.

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Offline dgfred


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

So tragic the shooting in Conn. Our thoughts are with the families.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

dgfred wrote:
So tragic the shooting in Conn. Our thoughts are with the families.

I just heard the news. Speechless :(
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

dgfred wrote:
So tragic the shooting in Conn. Our thoughts are with the families.


http://edition.cnn.com/2012/12/14/us/co ... ?hpt=hp_t1
20 children, 6 adults. Shocking, so tragic.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:54 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

I cannot imagine any pain greater than the loss of a child.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:37 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Such a terrible tragedy and just before Christmas. It makes me very sad for the families...

THE TELEGRAPH

P.S. Alleged school shooter Adam Lanza's girlfriend and another friend are reportedly missing, according to a new report.
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:47 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

My heart goes out to all those touched by this horrible tragedy. Every time I hear about a mass shooting like this one I ask myself what must have gone through the mind of the shooter? I don't think I will ever find a satisfying answer to this question.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Amidst the anger, frustration and incredible sadness felt over the senseless, unthinkable horror in Connecticut, today is a perfect day to commit a random act of kindness. We could all use it.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Napia5 wrote:
I cannot imagine any pain greater than the loss of a child.


Neither can I Nap.
That's so sad, to imagine those children being so terrified, can never near the thought of such things, especially little kids I mean, defenseless, not even with a fully grown grasp of the world they find themselves growing up in.

If someone like this is determined then, maybe they could potentially cause as much devastation without having relatively easy access to guns.
However, it seems to me, if a kid this age, can get hold of a gun just like that it mazes it easy to use in a moment of off-your-headness.

It is easy access compared to say someone in
France,
the Netherlands,
Britain where you'd have to go out of your way,
properly,
to get hold of a gun and then pay a lot for it and have to deal with some of the worst criminals in existence,
and then the gun you get,
may have already been used in countless murders that are on file,
so however nutty people are,
if they realise that,
they aren't too swift to to go after such a gun,
and as it is all so much trouble,
will be way less likely to have a turn one afternoon,
grab a gun and then shoot everyone to death.

America or Canada cannot be compared in terms of exactness, with Europe, where countries are far smaller, in France and Italy plenty of hunting goes on, in Britain too, in the Netherlands not so much at all, there's no culture of it, but in Italy and France there is, however, the actual gun laws make it very hard to get a gun and hard for these to enter a criminal circuit. In America is seems like plenty of dad's just have them in some (bedroom/shed?) drawer somewhere, I mean, how does a guy like this one get a gun?


I know here are plenty in America for changing the gun laws but then there are such expanses of land there, where guns are needed for hunting, etc, and well, if you want to argue about whether or not is it okay to hunt and then determine, no it is not, then everyone ought to become vegetarian, based on the premise that it is not alright to force an entire nation to become vegetarians then it is okay to hunt, even better than what happened in the mass food chain production units, mass slaughtering and mass breeding hereby included, yet, somehow, it seems that far more than countryside hunters are allowed guns, like, you have to be able to protect yourself from OTHERS who have guns, yes others who probably got the gun somewhere like stealing it off someone who had it legally, or else getting it under the table from a gun shop. As the shops are there then there are going to be people willing to earn ten times as much on a single gun simply by selling it in unregistered fashion.

Don't know what the Canadian laws are but there seems to be a little less of the gun slinging up there.

Criminals find ways to do things, Many years ago Belgium was pressured into sharpening it's weapon laws too, because people would travel to Belgium to buy guns, it was very easy there and very cheap, therefore criminals in surrounding countries could store up with the stuff they bought there and no amount of rules at home could stop criminals getting guns.

There are though plenty of weapons in the UK and it appears many come from Russia and wherever, even ex-Israeli army pieces, I mean wherever there is money to be made, crooks will find a way to get their product to market, sometimes replicas or guns made non-functional are readjusted to be fully functional again.

I mean look at the difference, you listen to a rock star like Keith Richards going on about how different the states was but it was in America because of a few things that happened that he started to carry a piece, he said it as though it were some hip thing to do or say, but me I hate that, anyway, talking about such things as though they are hip habits, like Keith, he could just start, as he called it, carrying a piece, whereas in Europe no WAY.

I imagine gun shops will need to be monitored far better than they presently are. However, that's probably impossible, that means gun stores would need to be government run, even then there are already so many guns in circulation probably going to need one of those gun handing in things as seen in Africa.

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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Hi, Zorba. IMO, this tragedy is two pronged. Guns and mental health issues. We are failing miserably in this country on both issues.

As far as the gun control issue is concerned, who in hell needs these repeat weapons? Why are they allowed in the hands of our citizens? Do you know anyone who hunts? I do. Quite a few, as a matter of fact. None of them own any of these assault, or repeater weapons. In the first place, the people I know who hunt as a means of supplementing their family food bank couldn't afford one, and, in the second place, shooting 50 bullets, rapid-fire into a target would ruin it as a food source. (Sorry to be blunt about this, it's disgusting to think about, but, it's the truth).
So, the question becomes, who is buying these weapons? And why?

I think about this in terms of medicine, drugs and other controlled substances. You need a prescription for a flu shot, or an antibiotic, but you can buy an assault weapon just by virtue of the fact that you are a citizen? How does that make any sense? What, actually is the spirit of the Second Amendment? Certainly not what we are seeing in Connecticut.

We need change. And we need leaders with enough strength to bring about this change.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

That hadn't dawned on me Nap.

Indeed, then the laws allowing the possession of such weapons is a bad one and one that caters to the nutty types who like blowing up stuff, etc, on their own land maybe, but, is it necessary to allow all of that?

I do not think so

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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

zorba wrote:
That hadn't dawned on me Nap.

Indeed, then the laws allowing the possession of such weapons is a bad one and one that caters to the nutty types who like blowing up stuff, etc, on their own land maybe, but, is it necessary to allow all of that?

I do not think so


Of course we need to start with these type weapons. But this is just a start. Think of it this way: The auto industry is not pushing the production of vehicles that can travel at a rate of 300mph. Why? No need for this type vehicle. We have laws which control the speed at which a vehicle may operate in order to protect the general safety of our citizens.
So, nobody bothers mass production of vehicles with this capability. And the general population understands this need for government control. What's different with these weapons? IMO, our government must step in with controls of some sort. Otherwise, what's next? Grenade launchers?
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Are you familiar with this tragedy, Zorba?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27399337/ns ... -gun-show/

The father of this 8 year old was an emergency room doctor, and was busily filming his son shooting this weapon when the gun went off. It's time people quit dividing themselves according to geographic location and education in the gun control issue. Some people seem to think it's the red-neck, under-educated, moonshine-drinkers who are creating the gun issue. It's not. Assault weapons are just that. Lethal. No matter who has them or uses them. No amount of education prevents these tragedies. We need them out of the hands of our citizens.
Start there.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

No, wasn't nut heard of similar, I cannot imagine letting a gun near a child, I mean I hate guns in any ,shape or form, so I'd be scared of them around anyone, but an 8 year old, goodness, what's wrong with people.


I guess they are as stupid as these people dressing their little 4 year olds up for beauty pageants where the little girls look like strippers, pole dancers, chorus girls, completely sexualised, the mothers they do it like they are sick in the head, fussing over their daughters but from what I can see into it, it isn't really about what the little girls like but what their mothers like doing, there was some little girl crying yesterday on one of the American channels, as she wasn't winning or something or other, I looked up because the woman was telling her to stop crying, my god, so nasty, so the little girl is placed in that, stressed out by it, then told to be like a grown up and stop crying. Same with the guns, what person in their right mind is going to let such a little person mess around with guns and then what for type of gun, crikey. Even a hand gun apparently has a kick back (backfiring punch), I don't know as I've never used one, held one and never want to either.

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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

You're right, Zorba. Some of the people in this country have gone completely over the edge, IMO.
What I find equally frightening about this TV show is that these young girls are, in most cases, performing this way with the approval of BOTH parents. What in the world are they thinking?
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:08 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

This one yesterday, they were African American women, and the father was stood there (he was African American too), saying he really didn't think it was right, and the wife started shoo-ing him up and he said, er, now don't try to shoo me up, there is dancing, there is all of that, but this stuff isn't right for a child of her age. The women were telling the kid and him too, that it was normal for her to be doing the splits stood on her head, dressed in those skimpy outfits, it was right because she was African and they do all of that, lots of stuff like that in Africa.

No matter what the mother and her friend told him, he wasn't convinced, it was making him feel really disturbed, as they were teaching the little girl to be sexual, and saying it is ordinary.

I understood him immediately.
You could see he was trying to keep things out of a big bust up but he meant what he said, and he cared about his daughter's wellbeing.

You do get fathers though who think all of this is great.

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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:15 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

I read this article on Huffington Post

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/1 ... 11009.html

This was written by a mother, dealing with her son's mental illness. As shocking as this story is now, this family is in for even more heartbreak. As her son ages, she will become less and less a part of his treatment, as his right to privacy will come into play. I am certainly not in a position to say what transpired with the man in Connecticut, but this mother's insight is not off-base, in my opinion.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

This was double posted

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:58 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Hey, I read that the boy that did the shooting, his mother had enrolled him in shooting lessons.

I was writing about this yesterday but didn't post it, so yes, a woman doing that means there's a certain mentality, surely she wouldn't have done it as a hobby that he was keen on, or maybe she did, maybe guns are so abundant that going to a structured gun shoot out, as in lessons, is a highly normal thing, I mean, in Britain people go to them too, even when they cannot have a gun at home, but this boy's mother had her own weapons and apparently it is thought the boy may have used those very weapons, to kill her then the children and teachers.

Fancy have people like Sfarzo looming around in your country, when to start with there is enough trouble to deal with, he who would attack his (so-called) friends and supporters, what does that imply in terms of potential danger to strangers?

Frank thinks he is onto a good little earner, but after actually having had him around them, they realised they didn't want to be encumbered with him, because he was something as twisted as the murder, and the murder was something they were trying to deny to start with I mean basically, in the Knox way of thinking, nothing really happened, it's all make-believe, in fact, they way they have handled it, makes it seem as though Meredith never was a living and breathing lady, she just never existed, their whole strategy has made it like that.

That is why they were now keen on having Sfarzo lose access to Knox.
I mean the club of the oh so slightly bitter, is comprised of a number of people with failed books, I mean who are these millions who would ever in the world be interested in spending their money and time reading the same boring, biased accounts, I see Dempsey, Moore, how many more all sat at the table, maybe they already cut their losses, more or less but Sfarzo, he was but a day at home in Italy and already started on about returning to his land of dreams, and streets paved with gold, Sfarzo Whittington and his dog, Sollecito. He can just smell the cash, meanwhile, we hear nothing from him, or about him, for he is probably in deep shit, and his feet are stuck.
If he already more or less absconded, because they are going to say, you knew you had to attend court so you knew you could not just stay away, therefore, surely he will be punished for his misbehaviour, so now they think he is going to disappear again, they may simply confiscate his passport.

Then the next thing we will hear about is those awful people, those conspiracists, taking his passport and his right to say what is really going on, whereas, the truth is, he is the one who is out of order and making up his own rules.


So yes I'm keen to read what Sfarzo starts saying when they stop spicing up his cake, and stop paying him. He hardly is a credible individual, one who could be viewed as a true representative of things Italian, how in the world could he be credible when he never has a single good thing to say about his own country.
He is only a credible representation of his own bitter and losing ways in life. This is why he latched onto the case, onto losers like him and then the money, very nice when you have no skills.

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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Nell wrote:
My heart goes out to all those touched by this horrible tragedy. Every time I hear about a mass shooting like this one I ask myself what must have gone through the mind of the shooter? I don't think I will ever find a satisfying answer to this question.


Hi Nell, here is something like an excerpt of a book about school shootings by Peter Langman I read some time ago ("Why kids kill-Inside the minds of school shooters"). He himself says there is no answer to your question, and that his book is not exhaustive, but I found it was one of the better ones I've read on the topic.
http://www.schoolshooters.info/PL/Artic ... pology.pdf

And here is something he wrote on the massacre at Sandy Hook:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/kee ... ary-school
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Napia5 wrote:
I read this article on Huffington Post

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/1 ... 11009.html

This was written by a mother, dealing with her son's mental illness. As shocking as this story is now, this family is in for even more heartbreak. As her son ages, she will become less and less a part of his treatment, as his right to privacy will come into play. I am certainly not in a position to say what transpired with the man in Connecticut, but this mother's insight is not off-base, in my opinion.



Seems there are so many guns in circulation that for the Democrats it's too much of a vote loser so they avoid it, meaning, the will to keep things the same, is a very Republican thing, thereby, it is upheld by the constitution.

What it means in practice is, he over there (at my door/in the bar/wherever) has a gun (legally, and illegally, does not matter when it is you on the end of a bullet) therefore I must have a gun too, to protect myself, and, in some oddly thought up way, I need to protect my country.
Me protecting me, is me protecting my country, because I'm patriotic.

In real life, the other guy may have had just as many delusions in his mind and thought of himself as someone good too, but then he had a reason or a real bad mood or was affected by drugs, alcohol or a divorce, or just was one of these good guys until he went bananas.

But, whoever it is, they all have access to weapons.

America being so vast, somehow has meant that many are in fact left out in the cold, while sort of being told to sing why they slave, sort of told it through those warped ideas about duty, country, and ownership, but, where the system seems to be that if you HAVE a job you then get a few rights (which can disappear as soon as you lose your place of employment) so this leads in turn to a kind of Thatcherite way, where those in the boat cheer themselves on and pour scorn on those in need, saying they (the others) ought to get a job and they themselves ought not to have to pay for these losers, these lazy types, these unemployed, forever adding; if they have no work it's their own fault.

Yet based on proper surveys, the reason so many are in need has nothing to do with any of the aforesaid negatives, and everything to do with a society that is set up in a you get yours I'll get mine, and screw you jack I'm okay.

A very hard mentality indeed but exactly like the one the Thatcher years breought in, in the UK&. It causes a desperate grabbing mrentral;ity and I've got mine, and cannot consider you.

Any of those voting Republican and blaming anyone out of work for everything that's not right, could also find themselves out of work.
So if they do end up out of work, they then find themselves also having to blame that on the democrats too, for it is in the Republian's eyes, they who have caused all of the trouble.
I say this as there are also lots of Republicans out of work too these days.

Would I be right to say that for many years Republican voters would save been the better off in society?

But what socio-economic factors, pychological-political opinion forming causes and reasonings could lead to a woman thinking she must teach her son to use guns, what fears did she have?

And how do those same fears relate to the small-mindedness demonstrated by all those around Knox?

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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Napia5 wrote:
I read this article on Huffington Post

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/1 ... 11009.html

This was written by a mother, dealing with her son's mental illness. As shocking as this story is now, this family is in for even more heartbreak. As her son ages, she will become less and less a part of his treatment, as his right to privacy will come into play. I am certainly not in a position to say what transpired with the man in Connecticut, but this mother's insight is not off-base, in my opinion.


Thank you for the link. It is a very comprehensive and touching article.

I believe many people don't really think about mental illness and its consequences, because they haven't been touched by it.

One of my classmates was living with his mother and his younger brother who was mentally ill. I don't know with what exactly his brother had been diagnosed, but I remember my classmate complaining a lot about his mother who refused to leave her younger son in an institution. He feared for his and his mother's safety, because his brother had attacked them with a knife in a violent rage on various occasions. The police had been called on one occasion and after that my classmate moved in with his grandmother. He felt resentment towards his mother, because in his eyes his mother had chosen his little brother over him. Shortly after graduation from school, my classmate committed suicide. I always remembered him as worried, unhappy, reserved and a bit depressive. He rarely laughed.
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ava wrote:
Nell wrote:
My heart goes out to all those touched by this horrible tragedy. Every time I hear about a mass shooting like this one I ask myself what must have gone through the mind of the shooter? I don't think I will ever find a satisfying answer to this question.


Hi Nell, here is something like an excerpt of a book about school shootings by Peter Langman I read some time ago ("Why kids kill-Inside the minds of school shooters"). He himself says there is no answer to your question, and that his book is not exhaustive, but I found it was one of the better ones I've read on the topic.
http://www.schoolshooters.info/PL/Artic ... pology.pdf

And here is something he wrote on the massacre at Sandy Hook:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/kee ... ary-school


Thank you Ava.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Napia5 wrote:
I read this article on Huffington Post

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/1 ... 11009.html

This was written by a mother, dealing with her son's mental illness. As shocking as this story is now, this family is in for even more heartbreak. As her son ages, she will become less and less a part of his treatment, as his right to privacy will come into play. I am certainly not in a position to say what transpired with the man in Connecticut, but this mother's insight is not off-base, in my opinion.


In a way though, I think some of the things going wrong with so many kids and given all kinds of names, has something to do with, as the woman in your link mentioned, the signals coming from society and one could hardly say that everything is highly normal in society.

Long ago also was astounded when someone explained that some of the most intelligent people were simply those who did not have this kind of self-limiting valve in the mind the way most people do, the valve that shuts down the vast expanse, so the very intelligent person may wind up appearing to be nuts, as a result of what is perceived as nutty behaviour when in fact he or she is reacting to abnormalities and is unable to shut down the ability to see them, while others close their eyes. Seeing so much drives that person/such persons to despair. The reason the person sees so much is that the intelligence overpowers the blinkers, placed in society, to stop people seeing, these are conditioning elements, and they are put into us as we grow, through the things that are not real but seem real, because of their presence in society, even their encouragement, their acceptance, their forcing onto people by means of some type of indoctrinations (could be through the media, advertising, and much more) many things, with time, have come to be viewed as bad things, bad ways, incorrect ways, yet today, ones thrown out, have neen and always are, replaced by new things that are not productive to a humane society and to one in harmony and peace.

In fact Aldous Huxley gave an outlining of it too, in order to explain in part, what happens to human beings, in modern society, where they must think rationally, meaning they cannot be left with lots of space in which to dream, what Huxley said was that hallucinogenic drugs like
psilocybin (in magic mushrooms) open up that valve in the brain and let the rich flood that is always there but shut out by the mind.

People with mental problems may be just like someone on a continuous trip, they simply see too much, the valve doesn't work with their minds.

Einstein too said that the main ingredient of coming to the discoveries that he did, was, in his view, based on the ability to wonder about things, that's why he also wondered what would God think, and on coming to that notion, he started to want to understand God at that level, but don't forget he was a scientist, scientists who not long before him had overturned the power of Christianity and other religions to base things (living and how people should live) on beliefs, and science would then have to prove things and had done so, yet to dream and question, as a basic ingredient, showed a flexibility, treading yet again into the realms, potentially, of uncertainty, as was known with religion, where you must simply accept what someone somewhere says, you must or should believe because that's the truth, end of.

Still, where schools are geared to society, and so much is wrong with society, at all levels, then one can debate whether forced education is right.

I've always considered it to be wrong.

Schools in the 60s, 70s in Britain (and today too), forced (and force) kids to sing hymns every morning so if a child freaks about having to do this and being told off for rejecting this brainwashing, is he really so bad or is the system no good?

These schools also used certain books and the system also supported the government, the monarchy, so what if a kid doesn't agree but is told 'who are you in the world to be having an opinion' and that he MUST agree or be punished, is he wrong or is the schooling way out of date and wrong?

There are a whole lot of reasons that a child could react badly to being forced to go to an institution every day.

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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:04 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

zorba wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
I read this article on Huffington Post

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/1 ... 11009.html

This was written by a mother, dealing with her son's mental illness. As shocking as this story is now, this family is in for even more heartbreak. As her son ages, she will become less and less a part of his treatment, as his right to privacy will come into play. I am certainly not in a position to say what transpired with the man in Connecticut, but this mother's insight is not off-base, in my opinion.



Seems there are so many guns in circulation that for the Democrats it's too much of a vote loser so they avoid it, meaning, the will to keep things the same, is a very Republican thing, thereby, it is upheld by the constitution.

What it means in practice is, he over there (at my door/in the bar/wherever) has a gun (legally, and illegally, does not matter when it is you on the end of a bullet) therefore I must have a gun too, to protect myself, and, in some oddly thought up way, I need to protect my country.
Me protecting me, is me protecting my country, because I'm patriotic.

In real life, the other guy may have had just as many delusions in his mind and thought of himself as someone good too, but then he had a reason or a real bad mood or was affected by drugs, alcohol or a divorce, or just was one of these good guys until he went bananas.

But, whoever it is, they all have access to weapons.

America being so vast, somehow has meant that many are in fact left out in the cold, while sort of being told to sing why they slave, sort of told it through those warped ideas about duty, country, and ownership, but, where the system seems to be that if you HAVE a job you then get a few rights (which can disappear as soon as you lose your place of employment) so this leads in turn to a kind of Thatcherite way, where those in the boat cheer themselves on and pour scorn on those in need, saying they (the others) ought to get a job and they themselves ought not to have to pay for these losers, these lazy types, these unemployed, forever adding; if they have no work it's their own fault.

Yet based on proper surveys, the reason so many are in need has nothing to do with any of the aforesaid negatives, and everything to do with a society that is set up in a you get yours I'll get mine, and screw you jack I'm okay.

A very hard mentality indeed but exactly like the one the Thatcher years breought in, in the UK&. It causes a desperate grabbing mrentral;ity and I've got mine, and cannot consider you.

Any of those voting Republican and blaming anyone out of work for everything that's not right, could also find themselves out of work.
So if they do end up out of work, they then find themselves also having to blame that on the democrats too, for it is in the Republian's eyes, they who have caused all of the trouble.
I say this as there are also lots of Republicans out of work too these days.

Would I be right to say that for many years Republican voters would save been the better off in society?

But what socio-economic factors, pychological-political opinion forming causes and reasonings could lead to a woman thinking she must teach her son to use guns, what fears did she have?

And how do those same fears relate to the small-mindedness demonstrated by all those around Knox?


Hi, Zorba. Sadly, many of your comments are very true these days. We seem, most of us to have come to that place where the 'haves' are very much blaming the 'have-nots' for their own predicaments. And quite a few of them are only a paycheck or two away from being in the same boat themselves. I know a few people who are out of work, and would give anything to return their families to a place of more security. Some have tried working two and three part-time jobs, which, on the face of it will help a family limp along, until, that is, there is an illness. Our system of health care is beyond sickening. I know this from personal experience. Why people resist seeing this is beyond me.

And, yes, guns are much too available in this country. And I did read that the mother in Connecticut had guns in the home. So, initially, I am reading comments which place the blame with the mother. We all want a quick-fix answer as to why, and whom to blame. Well, I think we should all help ourselves to a handful of blame in cases like this. Do we fight at all to get guns off the street? Do we write our repesentatives and push for health care reforms, better, more affordable insurance? Where was the rest of this man's family? Did any of them know about the guns?
There are many unanswered questions here. Was the mother herself ill in some way? I know if someone in my family purchased 5 weapons, this would be something so out of the norm, the rest of us would be taking a long, hard look at it. The brother was interviewed at length and was quoted as saying the shooter had a personality disorder. So, apparently the family was aware there were problems. Where did the rest of the family stand? So many questions.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:50 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Hey yeah Napia, and if they knew, then what in the world was mother thinking, allowing him to shooting lessons, even if he pushed her, but, I don't see why he would have pushed her though of course it could easily be so, that he got the idea in his head as kids do and then he wanted it, but if mom had guns and even this multi shooting thing, whatever it was, because if each child was shot at least 11 times then that thing was some kind of super gun, then how could mom have had that thing and how could she have it in the home?

Yet, his mother was a teacher, you'd imagine she'd be getting him, stimulating him in other directions, though that too doesn't necessarily have to be so, if she herself went on shooting hunts, more than that, somehow was one of those real gun lovers, collecting the things, then there are many ways she could have gotten into it, through a husband who was into it, boyfriends, or because she came from a rural area where guns were a normal thing to have in connection with having one to shoot alligators on the lawn, coyotes on your land, god knows, and hunting, the thing is, from what I've seen, even those who are just into hunting get pretty much into it, knowing all the types of guns, what they can do, and then trying out different types.

Then another angle, the woman may have been a teacher but that doesn't man to say everything she did was fantastic, who knows, maybe she was a very difficult or a demanding person, I mean I've seen people on TV, who had called help in as they could not deal with their kids, but if you saw the way the parents were, then it was clear the parents actually created these tense, terrible atmospheres that were turning the kids into something out of a poltergeist movie, tearing the place up, but it was ma and pa creating it all, as they were not okay, often uptight and had no idea about pedagogy, despite these being educated people, with jobs. All kinds of types had this going on at home, those with higher education, well-paid jobs, yet their ways were awful, sometimes expecting so much, other times having strange ways, that the kids naturally freaked out from.

So to help out, the helpers had to show the parents their own bad habits and why it upset and confused their kids so much, the kids unable to word it, and being told what to do, started becoming anorexic, cutting themselves, being unmanageable, etc, so that it looked like it was all about them, but it was not.

This boy had arguments, at school, so he was taking it very heavily, therefore like Knox, he reacted, only he had it cook up and it took some time whereas with Knox, it was brewing but the extent to which it went I doubt very much that she planned it.

I find it hard to believe nobody at all would know what the frustrations this boy obviously had, were about, I doubt he suddenly took things to such a level, it must have had to do with criticism, just like it did with Knox, even if Meredith only did as much as try to back off from Knox but be pushed by Knox so much that she ended up saying something. All as I am certain of, is that Knox and Meredith ended up in a fight, I think Knox got mad, even more, when Meredith stood up for herself and was very able to do so.

At least, the looks... I say looks, because more than one, in fact all of them, right through court and even back in America, show me her mind, and what her mind says, by the very reflection in her gaze, and, her different looks, is that in her head it was a fight and it's most unfortunate but don't mess with me, that's what I get from Knox, there has never been a single moment of softness in her eyes, never a moment showing, sincerely, that she cared, she didn't because it was a battle, and she won it, by using a knife, but she won it, and she thinks she was right, as you don't say that to me.

Imagine her, instead of in court lying and pleading with her fake sounding crocodile poor me tears, with the bit about they said:
I was ly----ing,
instead then,
her saying:
You don't saaaaaaay that to meeeee.

Switch that in court bit with this, and you get the real act,
the real stuff,
her nervousness,
her shaking,
that was the way,
I think,
she went mad at Meredith.
I can even imagine her telling it to Sollecito like, you saw what she did/said, what else could I do (then swear words) .. nobody tells me bla bla.

Different cases, different deeds, but something very similar here, this criticism, then someone unable to take it - even if it is in no way destructive criticism - turning vicious, but it is a rage, an anger, an uncontrollable anger, because to the damaged person it is as though the other is attacking them, when in fact they are not, those who are suffering delusion have not had the right lessons, or have been too into their own ideas that are not sound ones, they take it out on whoever it is that as it were, challenges them. Knox sees it as a challenge she won therefore does not need to feel bad, in fact, does not need to feel a thing. Her mind the night Meredith died, and the bad things that led to the murder, are all exactly the same as they were, she cares nothing for Meredith, that is the reason why she sounds so fake when she refers to Meredith as her friend.

And it's clear she does not.
By acting out the violence she can stay in that non-feeling state of mind, the minute she accepts reality she has to let her feelings be felt, by her, and then she is confronted with her actual problems, seeing as how she doesn't want to feel that (as that's the problem in the first place this insecurity and feeling unworthy), she fights whatever it is that will penetrate this, since she cannot accept any criticism as nobody has helped her to understand how to deal with it, and so in a state of flight, she imagines the criticism meant she is bad, she does not want to think it is her that's bad, so she lets nothing in.

If she does let anything in, does back down, then her eyes will come back to life and her soul as well, and thereupon, she will crack up, and it will be visible, because only then the reality of her own actions and circumstance will hit her and will she start to deal with it, have to, as it would then all be out there, right now it is not, it is stashed away, damaging her more.

Up until she undergoes another confrontation that DOES break through she'll remain in a state of flight, and have no trouble with the fact, (I think) that she murdered Meredith.

For the time being, she must remain in a highly controlled environment, installed by herself, to her own liking, which means she cannot integrate with others properly only within her own safe boundaries, so that nothing can show up out of the blue to confront her.

Should something really confront her, then the ingredients that were a recipe for disaster with respect to Meredith, will come out, as they are still fully in place; instead of having that stuff worked out, more has been added to it instead, therefore, she can stay with this boyfriend who is never going to ask her anything, but in other situations she would be unsafe from herself, as she could blow it by freaking out, as it is all waiting to blow, because what happened happened, and even if she remains in flight from herself that can only go well according to the conditions I just named, self-monitoring strategies. Likewise, Sollecito pretending to be living it up, off to America, etc, yet the things he allows himself into, are controlled too; he is hardly going to sign up to a round of Hard Talk.

Having any dealings together (Knox & Sollecito), even being said to have seen each other, is all nothing more than monitoring the business interests, and the business here is murder.

Surely Guede though is feeling sore that they are both free, while he is locked away. Who knows, I expect he is already institutionalised, and maybe even pleased with it in prison, as he does not have to worry about food, bills or anything and this is something that lots of people experience in jail, they become institutionalised because they do have a bed, food, etc, and that means less worry and as they aren't going anywhere they have no choice but to give into it, once they do, they may prefer to remain in prison, that is what institutionalised means in terms of prison. He will feel fed up but their clear guilt and his lack of action tell me he really was bad that night too.

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Last edited by zorba on Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:18 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:53 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

The reason she cares nothing for Meredith is because to survive this, in the state of flight, she cannot afford to care, if she did, she would have a hard time of carrying on as she does. This has always been true, from the moment Meredith died, through the prison term and court appearances.

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Offline max


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:28 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

The Mystery of the Empty Duodenum SOLVED Part I

This one just recently 'clicked' for me. I have always had the feeling that 'something' was missing from the different theories. I couldn't really grasp what it was since I am not a biologist and the Massei report is a bit confusing on this. However I can spot math errors from a mile away and that is what is happening here. Science is used but the results are misused (or not even used). I am not going to take credit for solving the 'mystery' as that was already done by James:
http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tj ... _meredith/

What James does not specifically explain is that mr Halkides is exaggerating (on purpose?) the real time it takes for food to start entering the duodenum. There is another theory from a certain mr Geebee that is more honest about this. Then both gentlemen misuse the scientific results to come to their predetermined theory that Meredith must have been killed shortly after 9pm. The ‘funny’ thing is if you combine both theories you come to the right conclusions.

Mr Geebee is more honest about the short period of time it takes for food to pass to the duodenum. Mr Halkides is honest that one should take the starting moment of when Meredith had her meal that evening.

http://viewfromwilmington.blogspot.com/ ... edith.html
http://kermit-analysis.wikispaces.com/Empty-Duodenum

Note how Mr G comments on the source used by Mr H.
Quote:
Note: since this was a novel technique, I would give it slightly less weight than the more well established studies.

Indeed the more well established studies show a lag time (for a solid meal) shorter than 82 minutes (the average timing mentioned by mr H). Less than an hour even. See for example a source (mentioned by Mr H for crying out loud!), that includes a graph that shows that the first food starts to empty from the stomach within an hour (the moment where the blue graph starts to descend).

http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pa ... tying.html

Meredith ate at around 6pm and the science tells us that normally the first food must have entered her duodenum at about an hour later at 7pm. Both gentlemen do not say this and completely ignore this simple conclusion. Why? Because this does not fit their predetermined theory. Here comes the deceit by mr G where he makes up a ridiculous theory that the food eaten at 6pm would somehow just sit in her stomach for more than 3 hours because it would wait for an apple that Meredith ate at around 8pm. Mr H on the other hand completely ignores 'his own' 82 minutes and starts to look for extremes to reach for that 9pm timing. What kind of scientist does that?

There are certainly variables to be considered. Digestion is different for different types of food and there are differences for each person. However the ranges (for the starting moment) are not hours but minutes (the ranges mentioned in the Massei report concern the total emptying time for food leaving the stomach). Stress could delay it by hours but keep in mind we are talking about the period 6pm-9pm here and there is no reason to assume anything out of the ordinary at this moment. There is also no reason to assume Meredith would have some kind of medical condition that could account for such a delay.

Conclusion #1: There is no reason to assume that for a young and healthy woman like Meredith the food eaten at 6pm would not start to enter the duodenum by 7pm.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:20 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

The Mystery of the Empty Duodenum SOLVED Part II

Following through on our first conclusion, we start to see what happened with the pizza she ate at 6pm. By 7pm it starts to process into the duodenum. Dr Lalli explains that the timing for a meal to completely empty from the stomach is 2-3 hours (at one time he also mentions 4 hours). Mr H is helpful by explaining that Meredith did not finish her pizza:

Quote:
According to Candace Dempsey’s book, Murder in Italy, Sophie Purton said that Meredith ate only part of her pizza.

http://viewfromwilmington.blogspot.com/ ... edith.html

I haven't been able to find another source on that but if it is true then it only indicates that Meredith didn't eat all that much. Under normal conditions therefore the pizza eaten at around 6pm would most likely be fully gone from the stomach by 8-9pm.

I don't know if there are any timings for the duodenum specifically, but I did find timings for the small intestine. The duodenum is the first part of the small intestine.

Quote:
Food may take as long as four hours to pass through the small intestine, with the average length of time hovering at about 2.5 to three hours. The exact length of time is dependent on the individual makeup of each person, the type of food being digested, gender, psychological stress and even reproductive status.

http://www.thefreeresource.com/small-in ... -resources

The ranges for stomach emptying and intestine emptying make it much more likely that the duodenum was emptied sometime after 9PM. Especially since after 9PM there could be considerable stress. The 9PM TOD theory is deceiving and when we stick to the science it shows us the exact opposite.

Conclusion #2: The 6PM pizza has passed through the stomach by 9PM, and the last part has been passed to the duodenum. It is hard to tell when exactly an empty duodenum would be expected but 9PM seems unlikely.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:29 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

The Mystery of the Empty Duodenum SOLVED Part III

So where is the 6pm pizza at TOD? At TOD the duodenum is empty so the 6PM pizza must have passed through the duodenum as well. This gets confirmed by the autopsy.

Quote:
In the autopsy, Dr. Lalli noted the following: "... oesophagus containing a fragment apparently a piece of mushroom ... stomach containing 500 cc alimentary bolus, green brown in which were recognizable caseosis (mozzarella?) and vegetable fibre ... empty duodenum, small intestine containing digested material in the last loop ...".

Conclusion #3: At TOD the 6PM pizza has passed the duodenum and is (at least partly) still in the last loop of the small intestine.
Conclusion #4: At TOD the duodenum was empty and there is food in the stomach. It is impossible that the food in the stomach was the 6pm pizza therefore it must have been eaten by Meredith later after she got home.

Lets be careful not to make the same mistake as the 9pm theories. That is, to try to pinpoint the TOD based on the digestion analysis. After 9pm it is possible that Meredith gets stressed. We don't know how the trouble began and when exactly it began. In contrast to the time before 9pm it is much more insecure now how long it would take for food to be digested. Stress can delay digestion by hours!

Quote:
A head injury, physical or mental shock or stress, may completely inhibit the secretion of gastric juice, the motility of the stomach and the opening of the pylorus, and undigested food may be seen after more than 24 hours. Any illness or emotional stress, may prolong the emptying time for many hours.

http://healthdrip.com/estimation-of-pos ... -interval/

Overall conclusions: It is sad to realize that Meredith must have eaten at home. It seems that everything was normal at first and that the attack happened after Meredith finished eating. She not only ate a mushroom but also something with cheese. Possibly even a leftover pizza that she took home? Who knows. Nobody testified to Meredith taking any pizza home, but if Candace Dempsey is right that she did not finish the pizza then we at least know that there were leftovers and nobody testified that Meredith threw the pizza in the bin either.

One can probably write a book on how psychological factors have influenced the analysis over the last few years. IIRC this theory was never followed through on PMF the first few years. We always got stuck with the idea that the theory showed that Meredith must have been killed before 9PM and that therefore the 'duodenum theory' must have been nonsense. The nonsense part is true, but we also could have followed through on the science instead of just assuming that the stomach content was the 6PM pizza. I must also say that the Massei report isn't very clear on this particular subject and makes it a bit confusing.

Note: I have left out the apple that Meredith ate at around 8PM because one needs to know exactly when this was eaten to draw some conclusions but basically the same analysis applies. However it is far more difficult to make an estimate since now it is much closer to 9PM and an apple is not a pizza so the timing estimates are a bit different. If Meredith ate the apple shortly before 9PM and there was early trouble at the cottage then the apple might still be in the stomach at TOD. If not then the apple was also gone and she simply had another bit of apple with her (pizza)snack at home.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:30 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Part IV, V and VI will follow tomorrow! No, just kidding. I know you all got bored of this topic a long time ago ;)
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

max wrote:
Part IV, V and VI will follow tomorrow! No, just kidding. I know you all got bored of this topic a long time ago ;)


I can't speak for anybody else, max, but I'm not bored at all. I find this to be the most interesting read yet about TOD.
When one does not understand the science behind the reports, one can be led to all sorts of incorrect assumptions based on wording of some of these reports.
I think of the apple crumble. What exactly is that? I know that I have a picture in my mind, and an opinion. However, I actually have no idea how they prepared this. Were the apples cut thinly? Or, were thick pieces used, some of which did not cook through. Would this preparation affect digestion? Logic would tell me that a thin piece of fully cooked apple would surely digest more rapidly than a chunk of half-cooked apple would. These variables, unknown to me, cause me generally to shy away from the discussion of TOD. However, one can't dispute the math. At least I can't.
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Bad news for Frank Sforza:

@andreavogt: More #amandaknox case fallout: A #Florence judge has set March 4 trial date for Perugian blogger accused of defaming prosecutor.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Hi, max, of course TOD will consume us for some time to come ;)

We had a similar debate with geebee2 Re: stomach emptying and TOD some time back during our FOAKer interlude, (March-May) and yes, it seemed like they were twisting the available research to fit their own agendas.

We know that Meredith went out partying on Halloween Night. It is possible she didn't feel like eating when she woke up late the next day and left around 4pm. I agree the 6 pm start time for the pizza would indicate her stomach emptied by the time she got home. I also think the apple crumble which has a longer prep and cooking time would have been eaten around 8 pm.

There is no evidence to indicate she took leftovers home. She may have been snacking on the mushroom from her fridge when she was interrupted, and the ensuing stress caused the digestive process to be interrupted. I may be one of the few that believe this, but I think that period probably began shortly after she arrived home. Discovery of theft of rent money?

And TOD? Some time after 10 pm, we do not know when beyond that. But keep in mind, the only person who positively identified Rudy Guede that night was Hekuran Kokomani, who saw all three together that night, around about the time of the tow truck. And I am somewhat doubtful about what Nara Capezzali heard, and when.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

The Machine wrote:
Bad news for Frank Sforza:

@andreavogt: More #amandaknox case fallout: A #Florence judge has set March 4 trial date for Perugian blogger accused of defaming prosecutor.


Since he plans on going back to the US for New Year's eve, I don't know if he'll be back in Italy by March :)
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ergon wrote:
The Machine wrote:
Bad news for Frank Sforza:

@andreavogt: More #amandaknox case fallout: A #Florence judge has set March 4 trial date for Perugian blogger accused of defaming prosecutor.


Since he plans on going back to the US for New Year's eve, I don't know if he'll be back in Italy by March :)


I did read that Sforza and Sollecito were planning a New Year's eve trip to New York. Pretty late to plan something spur of the moment, and pretty pricey, too, unless I'm mistaken.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Napia5 wrote:
max wrote:
Part IV, V and VI will follow tomorrow! No, just kidding. I know you all got bored of this topic a long time ago ;)


I can't speak for anybody else, max, but I'm not bored at all. I find this to be the most interesting read yet about TOD.
When one does not understand the science behind the reports, one can be led to all sorts of incorrect assumptions based on wording of some of these reports.
I think of the apple crumble. What exactly is that? I know that I have a picture in my mind, and an opinion. However, I actually have no idea how they prepared this. Were the apples cut thinly? Or, were thick pieces used, some of which did not cook through. Would this preparation affect digestion? Logic would tell me that a thin piece of fully cooked apple would surely digest more rapidly than a chunk of half-cooked apple would. These variables, unknown to me, cause me generally to shy away from the discussion of TOD. However, one can't dispute the math. At least I can't.

Exactly. All that lag stuff was new to me also. Never even heard of a duodenum..lol.. Until I read the article by James at TJMK, and realized it is just the math and one needs to stick to that. That 6PM pizza is long gone by (lets say) 11PM. Draw your conclusions after you realize that. So why didn't anybody make a simple timeline for that 6PM pizza years ago? I would have understand much better than all that throwing around of lag times, and the silly attempts to stretch it to 3 hours. Or why didn't I think of that years ago...lol..
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ergon wrote:
The Machine wrote:
Bad news for Frank Sforza:

@andreavogt: More #amandaknox case fallout: A #Florence judge has set March 4 trial date for Perugian blogger accused of defaming prosecutor.


Since he plans on going back to the US for New Year's eve, I don't know if he'll be back in Italy by March :)


I shall pass on your concerns to the relevant parties. It would be most impolite of Frank to not turn up for such an important date. He's already missed one rendezvous.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:47 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ergon wrote:
Hi, max, of course TOD will consume us for some time to come ;)

We had a similar debate with geebee2 Re: stomach emptying and TOD some time back during our FOAKer interlude, (March-May) and yes, it seemed like they were twisting the available research to fit their own agendas.

We know that Meredith went out partying on Halloween Night. It is possible she didn't feel like eating when she woke up late the next day and left around 4pm. I agree the 6 pm start time for the pizza would indicate her stomach emptied by the time she got home. I also think the apple crumble which has a longer prep and cooking time would have been eaten around 8 pm.

There is no evidence to indicate she took leftovers home. She may have been snacking on the mushroom from her fridge when she was interrupted, and the ensuing stress caused the digestive process to be interrupted. I may be one of the few that believe this, but I think that period probably began shortly after she arrived home. Discovery of theft of rent money?

And TOD? Some time after 10 pm, we do not know when beyond that. But keep in mind, the only person who positively identified Rudy Guede that night was Hekuran Kokomani, who saw all three together that night, around about the time of the tow truck. And I am somewhat doubtful about what Nara Capezzali heard, and when.

Yes, not only a mushroom but also a snack containing cheese and some vegetable matter. There is no other way, and indeed now the same discussion moves on to the apple crumble which IMO makes the discussion only sillier. TOD was set by the coroner at 10:50PM and I never saw any reasons why he would be far off. Hellmann doesn't even mention him :roll:
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:11 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

The Machine wrote:
Bad news for Frank Sforza:

@andreavogt: More #amandaknox case fallout: A #Florence judge has set March 4 trial date for Perugian blogger accused of defaming prosecutor.

Thanks. Mmhh..Andrea thinks what shall I put?..Sforca..Sfarzo..Sforza..oh well..Perugian blogger it is :mrgreen:
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:19 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

I think Szfukka Max

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:40 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

It's mad but a day or two ago I wrote one of my many bits and like many others, didn't post it, but, it did touch on those people I keep seeing on telly, storing stuff, literally like there is no tomorrow, they have like clubs fot it, and serious, man, it's like tthey are holding sermons, and I know that storms can come and all that but these people have ideas that go way further than such considerations and preparations/state of preparedness, they look pretty fantatical to me, it's nice to be self-sufficient but these people do it with a religious-like conviction, it is as though it forms their lives now.
So the boy that murdered all those kids - and I say boy but he was 20, am I right, so not that much of a boy in my view - his mother was a hoarder or whatever name it has been given.

There are plenty of people hat really get stuck on a thing, an idea, the same with these people who become experts and getting coupons, they then go into a supermarket, and by about 10.000 dollar's worth of groceries and everything else you can get in those super huge supermarkets, then paying the cashier, they roll out all of the coupons worked out to the last dime, and there are 10 or 15 shopping trolleys full that will leave the store with them as a convoy, but with paying, suddenly something is not right, it's 8 dollars out, and it seems then like the end of the world, it is to the woman saving these coupons because she can't take being wrong as this is a highly accurate game, and then, the cashier realises or the woman points it out, that she keyed something in incorrectly or whatever and it turns out the woman was correct, on the 10,000 dollars she pays 2 dollars 50 and carts everything of to her daughter's wedding or suchlike.

People really do get fixed on a thing.
That seems like a modern phenomenon too.
What I mean is, one woman or man is willing to spend every day working out stuff for in the event aliens come to take over, gets the son into shooting lessons, the other though gaining a lot of money spends every waking hour in search of coupons.

Anyway apart from all of this, on Sfarzo, I hope they confiscate his passport.

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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:34 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

max wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
max wrote:
Part IV, V and VI will follow tomorrow! No, just kidding. I know you all got bored of this topic a long time ago ;)


I can't speak for anybody else, max, but I'm not bored at all. I find this to be the most interesting read yet about TOD.
When one does not understand the science behind the reports, one can be led to all sorts of incorrect assumptions based on wording of some of these reports.
I think of the apple crumble. What exactly is that? I know that I have a picture in my mind, and an opinion. However, I actually have no idea how they prepared this. Were the apples cut thinly? Or, were thick pieces used, some of which did not cook through. Would this preparation affect digestion? Logic would tell me that a thin piece of fully cooked apple would surely digest more rapidly than a chunk of half-cooked apple would. These variables, unknown to me, cause me generally to shy away from the discussion of TOD. However, one can't dispute the math. At least I can't.

Exactly. All that lag stuff was new to me also. Never even heard of a duodenum..lol.. Until I read the article by James at TJMK, and realized it is just the math and one needs to stick to that. That 6PM pizza is long gone by (lets say) 11PM. Draw your conclusions after you realize that. So why didn't anybody make a simple timeline for that 6PM pizza years ago? I would have understand much better than all that throwing around of lag times, and the silly attempts to stretch it to 3 hours. Or why didn't I think of that years ago...lol..


And that's the thing of it, isn't it. max? Even something that dawns with such simplicity 5 years later that it's a head-smacker, points right toward guilt. Nothing that comes to me logically, simply, falls on the side of innocence. And believe me, I've looked. It's just not there.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:36 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Now Napia and Ergon made me thinking about that apple :) So I googled a bit and was surprised to find out that it probably doesn't really matter when exactly Meredith ate that apple crumble. I think the lag time for an apple is even shorter than for a pizza as it is more liquid (just look at that graph I posted). So the decisive factor might not be the lag time, but what matters is when that 6PM pizza exactly left the stomach.The apple must wait for the pizza and then follows.

Quote:
Any quick digesting foods must wait till the slowest digesting foods leave the stomach before they can leave

Apples, pears, peaches, cherries etc. - digest in 40 min

http://drbass.com/sequential.html

Therefore the apple immediately followed the pizza on its path through the duodenum. It seems impossible that the pizza would have completely passed through the duodenum and the apple would have remained completely in the stomach.

The alternative is that the pizza had already left the stomach before the apple was consumed but that can't have been all that much sooner. You would still have the situation that the apple digests much faster than the pizza and the same argument as above applies. The apple and the pizza were too close to each other to be completely in separate chambers so to speak. The lag time of an apple is way too short to even reach 9PM with an empty duodenum anyway. She can't have eaten that shortly before 9PM. The math just doesn't fit and there is only one conclusion.

Conclusion: whatever was in Meredith's stomach must have been eaten after she arrived at home


Last edited by max on Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:58 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

zorba wrote:
It's mad but a day or two ago I wrote one of my many bits and like many others, didn't post it, but, it did touch on those people I keep seeing on telly, storing stuff, literally like there is no tomorrow, they have like clubs fot it, and serious, man, it's like tthey are holding sermons, and I know that storms can come and all that but these people have ideas that go way further than such considerations and preparations/state of preparedness, they look pretty fantatical to me, it's nice to be self-sufficient but these people do it with a religious-like conviction, it is as though it forms their lives now.
So the boy that murdered all those kids - and I say boy but he was 20, am I right, so not that much of a boy in my view - his mother was a hoarder or whatever name it has been given.

There are plenty of people hat really get stuck on a thing, an idea, the same with these people who become experts and getting coupons, they then go into a supermarket, and by about 10.000 dollar's worth of groceries and everything else you can get in those super huge supermarkets, then paying the cashier, they roll out all of the coupons worked out to the last dime, and there are 10 or 15 shopping trolleys full that will leave the store with them as a convoy, but with paying, suddenly something is not right, it's 8 dollars out, and it seems then like the end of the world, it is to the woman saving these coupons because she can't take being wrong as this is a highly accurate game, and then, the cashier realises or the woman points it out, that she keyed something in incorrectly or whatever and it turns out the woman was correct, on the 10,000 dollars she pays 2 dollars 50 and carts everything of to her daughter's wedding or suchlike.

People really do get fixed on a thing.
That seems like a modern phenomenon too.
What I mean is, one woman or man is willing to spend every day working out stuff for in the event aliens come to take over, gets the son into shooting lessons, the other though gaining a lot of money spends every waking hour in search of coupons.

Anyway apart from all of this, on Sfarzo, I hope they confiscate his passport.


Zorba, step away from the television, it is not your friend, ...lol.
Seriously, though, I don't believe that this is a modern phenomenon. We're just seeing it televised. There is no question that the people you're speaking of are all into the realm of obsession, and it's surprising that it's as wide-spread as it is, but I don't think it's a new thing. Hoarding, as one example. Three of my aunts, all now deceased, could have made appearances on that show. My mother always said that it was because of being raised during the Depression. Nothing was wasted. Everything was saved and re-used. They never grew past that mentality. I also knew a coupon saver. Eventually drove her friends, and even her husband away, it so overtook her life.

Its all a matter of balance. And setting limits. Sometimes, it you don't seek balance, and set limits, the results are disastrous. And sometimes lead to murder.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:40 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Yeah, that's right Nap, but I don't know if you have actually seen what I'm on about, as they are not ordinary hoarders, this is something else, or, they are, ha ha. They do far more, wit the idea that everything is going to break down, so then they've got all kinds of stuff prepared, I mean a lot, bunkers too, in which they can survive for a long time, with their own supplies of everything.

I'll watch it better next time I come across it or it comes across me as I follow nothing, just watch out for comedy, and listen, a bit, to the news.

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Last edited by zorba on Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:06 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

zorba wrote:
Yeah, that's right Nap, but I don't know if you have actually seen what I'm on about, as they are not ordinary hoarders, this is something else, or, they are, ha ha. They do far more, wit the idea that everything is going to break down, so then they've got all kinds of stuff prepared, I mean a lot, bunkers too, in which they can survive for a long time, with their own supplies of .

I'll watch it better next time I come across it or it comes across me as I follow nothing, just watch out for comedy, and listen, a boy, to the news.


Yes, I've seen it, Zorba. Preparing for survival, or somesuch. All of them suffering from some form of the same thing, IMO. Not living in the today. Living in their heads, preparing for tomorrow, or December 21st, or the next Depression. Same thing. Not a happy one in the bunch.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:47 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

The Massei report is a bit confusing on the empty duodenum and the stomach emptying times. I see Professor Introna came pretty close.

Quote:
With respect to the stomach contents, he clarified that he took the start of the meal as a parameter and never the end, "because at the start of a meal, the first bolus arrives in the stomach, starts to be attacked by the gastric juices and will be the first chyme to pass the pyloric sphincter into the duodenum. The stomach does not wait for the last mouthful before starting digestion; the stomach starts the digestive process from the first mouthful". According to the data reported by Dr. Lalli, the duodenum was empty and the stomach contained 500 cc and thus "the stomach at the moment of the attack still held all of the gastric contents and had not even begun to empty".

Quote:
He also recalled that the emptying of the stomach under standard conditions starts around three and a half hours after the start of a meal, say between three and four hours after, and that the term "emptying" indicates the stomach emptying its contents (into the duodenum).

Quote:
With respect to the piece of mushroom mentioned in the consulting report of Dr. Lalli, he advanced two hypotheses. One was that upon arriving home, the victim had already completely digested the pizza and ate something else with mushrooms; this hypothesis is, however, not acceptable because there was only a single mushroom and also because of the fact that pieces of apple could be distinguished in the stomach contents, indicating that they came from the victim's first meal. The second hypothesis was that in the pizza, there was also a mushroom.

Not sure if the hypothesis was rejected by Massei or by Introna himself. If it was Introna then he is a sneaky defense expert. If it was Massei then he misunderstood the theory somewhere. It could be that Massei misunderstood the 3-4 hours as Introna must have meant that that is the time for total emptying of the stomach (not the start). That Introna must have understood is implied by him bringing up the hypothesis that Meredith completely digested her pizza. This shows he realized that it was possible. It is strange and unfortunate if Massei misunderstood this, but it wouldn't have had a major impact on setting the TOD I think.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

I want to add one alternative scenario which IMO is possible. Some women experience digestion problems in the week leading up to their menstruation cycle. This could have delayed the pizza. And if the pizza gets delayed then so does the apple. This would be a rather simple explanation for the empty duodenum and stomach contents. Of course, I have no idea if it is applicable. It just goes to show that there are many variables and you can never be a 100% sure about any scenario when it comes to digestion.

Nutrition lesson of the day (I learned this while browsing)
Don't eat an apple (or any fruit) immediately after a meal. The digestion time of fruit is much shorter as it contains natural sugars (that don't need digestion). So much shorter that it will sit in your stomach too long waiting for the other food to digest and the fruit will rot and ferment. Better eat fruit on an empty stomach :)
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Offline dgfred


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

max wrote:
Part IV, V and VI will follow tomorrow! No, just kidding. I know you all got bored of this topic a long time ago ;)



If it is of interest you... it is of interest to me. tt-)
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Offline dgfred


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

TOD debates also showed me... completely, that the F'ers had an agenda instead of looking for the truth. Heck, they even had a vet as their 'go to' expert on the subject and would gang tackle anyone trying to oppose that view. They were determined to make TOD so early that the two lovebird killers actually had a 'decent' alibi. Then they would argue vs ALL the other evidence against the two using early TOD as the base... regardless of the obsurdity.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

max wrote:
I want to add one alternative scenario which IMO is possible. Some women experience digestion problems in the week leading up to their menstruation cycle. This could have delayed the pizza. And if the pizza gets delayed then so does the apple. This would be a rather simple explanation for the empty duodenum and stomach contents. Of course, I have no idea if it is applicable. It just goes to show that there are many variables and you can never be a 100% sure about any scenario when it comes to digestion.

Nutrition lesson of the day (I learned this while browsing)
Don't eat an apple (or any fruit) immediately after a meal. The digestion time of fruit is much shorter as it contains natural sugars (that don't need digestion). So much shorter that it will sit in your stomach too long waiting for the other food to digest and the fruit will rot and ferment. Better eat fruit on an empty stomach :)


And this additional alternative scenario (and those like it) are the reasons that I have deferred to the experts. The prosecution showed that digestion fell within a framework of the crime in a time period that provided Knox and Sollecito with no alibi. The defense attempted to move the goalposts to a point that would include the possibility
that Knox and Sollecito could not have been present. The defense attempted to move the goalpost with every piece of evidence, claiming contamination, coercion, evidence planting, unreliable witnesses, witnesses with axes to grind, etc., etc., and you see the point. You may get some people to buy discrediting one or two pieces of evidence, but each and every one?

I have a math question for you, max. Say the odds of contamination are 1 in 1000. Say the odds of misidentification are 1 in 500. Say the odds of Curalto being mistaken are 1 in 100, Say the odds of giving a wrong time when hearing a scream are 1 in 50, and the odds of making a mistake about the staged break-in are 1 in 300. Obviously, I'm just giving numbers off the top. My point is, what are the odds that all of these things took place together? If the defense isolates a piece of evidence, and says that the possibility exists for error, and then takes a second piece of evidence and says that the possibility exists for error, don't the odds change for those two things to have happened in error in tandem?
Isn't that why the Groupies always want to argue each item in isolation?
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Women are complex creatures Napia, including their digestive system :) Anything can happen. The experts could have just left it at that..lol.. The odds are zero ;)


Last edited by max on Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

dgfred wrote:
TOD debates also showed me... completely, that the F'ers had an agenda instead of looking for the truth. Heck, they even had a vet as their 'go to' expert on the subject and would gang tackle anyone trying to oppose that view. They were determined to make TOD so early that the two lovebird killers actually had a 'decent' alibi. Then they would argue vs ALL the other evidence against the two using early TOD as the base... regardless of the obsurdity.

Some, but not all (I am being nice). There is some truth in stating that Massei's TOD of 11:30PM would be impossible with an empty duodenum after a 6PM meal. Without any delayed digestion that would be true, but then as I showed, under the same circumstances the same goes for a 9PM TOD which makes the whole thing rather dishonest. So I think there is a lot of people just seeing what they wanting to see, and indeed there are a few people purposely taking advantage of that.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

On an obstructed apple though Max, I can't imagine suchlike getting obstructed or held back, as apples are almost all water, whereas a pizza contains almost zero water in the crust, though more obviously in the toppings, though not necessarily so as some pizzas are as dry as a parrot's elbow,
I'd say an apple could go down two snacks later than a pizza crust and still win the race to escape!

As an aside, my system was never the same after dysentery in Afghanistan, then dysentery in Nepal, wow those were the days, based on that, Asian countries, some, with Vindaloo curries, etc, would have no trouble fitting camels into eyes of needles, neither did I have trouble when you get dysentery like that you are never going to suffer with constipation, 3 months of this is heavy, but years after, my own system, on certain days after perhaps certain nights, and various sittings, can present similar things, like a beer tap line emptying then right after compressed clay, then melted ice cream out of a fire extinguisher (I always blamed it on 3 and half months of dysentery in Kathmandu on two separate occasions, thus, 7 months), so me, knowing little over the above, I still tend to see the variants as extensive in range and even for coroners hard to really say for certain, but as I don't know enough about said coroners, I know not exactly how it works, however logic goes a long way.

You have a stodgy polenta and then a Vindaloo, I think I know who is getting out first.
I should imagine the chili works to stimulate acids and acids work like salt on ice on the stodge (stodginous content = just invented stodginous), but unless the one meal acts as a total barrier, surely later contestants may overtake?

Coroners will as nutritionists know that an apple dissolves almost immediately, with or without chewing, so anyhow, they must use a lot of angles to get a real picture, like what other content was found, so if little or light acidic content is analysed, they will say, it's possible that things took longer to digest, yet another angle is, the pace of a person's metabolism. I mean after India, at least I always imagined after India, I only needed to smell coffee and I'd be off to the WC.

All of these different things are not solely foodstuffs but stimulants too, either inhibiting an action or stimulating it, like coffee, that isn't stimulating acids but the bowels to drop it's load of torpedoes, therefore some things can overtake everything, like coffee will get rid of stuff that had only just gone in, very nice if you are into dieting, a powerful laxative.

You eat an opiate and nothing will shift but many drugs are affiliated with the opiate family.

There are many variants that play a part.

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Last edited by zorba on Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Seeing as how they had so much stool from Guede, would have been good if they'd analysed that too, for content, to see if he'd eaten anything that Meredith had eaten.

In fact, they could have determined a couple of things by analysing Knox and Sollecito's excrement, as then, if they'd all had the same stuff in their intestines, they would have been able to disqualify certain lies, like I was never there.

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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

This is why I depended upon the experts, and their opinion of a window of time. What happens when someone is sick?
If I eat a meal at 6, and wake up in the middle of the night ill, where has that meal been? Does it remain in the stomach before regurgitation? Has it moved to the duodenum?, small intestine? More than two hours have passed since the meal,
so, exactly where was it?


Last edited by Napia5 on Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline dgfred


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

zorba wrote:
Seeing as how they had so much stool from Guede, would have been good if they'd analysed that too, for content, to see if he'd eaten anything that Meredith had eaten.

In fact, they could have determined a couple of things by analysing Knox and Sollecito's excrement, as then, if they'd all had the same stuff in their intestines, they would have been able to disqualify certain lies, like I was never there.


Hey Z.
They were not really suspects until they started blabbing on the 5th. Until that time they were only witnesses who were found at the crime scene... and were some of the last people to actually see Meredith that day/night.

This is the problem with drugs in the system/hair too IMO. Who knows what they would have found in them if tested immediately. I bet they did some extra cleaning and trashing too between the murder and the 5th. They obviously didn't sit around fixing up their made-up alibi/s.

sc-))
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:19 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

You are right on the water Zorba. The apple would definitely win the race if it could, but it has to wait for its turn. Just by looking at the apple itself it is amazing that anybody ever came up with that 9PM TOD theory. That apple got stuck behind the pizza, or started to digest within minutes after eating and therefore wasn't the same apple as the one found in Meredith's stomach. It all seems so simple now :mrgreen:

Quote:
Coming to the question of when. While there is nothing wrong with eating fruits after a meal, it is preferable to eat fruits before a meal. There is a good reason for this. Fruits contain sugars which are in the most natural forms, that do not have to be broken down into simpler forms for absorption and digestion. Also, most of the fruits contain almost 90% to 95% water. As such, they require hardly 15-25 minutes for their digestion. So, if eaten after a meal, the fruits will simply have to wait for their turn to be digested, which is quite unnecessary. This also makes your stomach feel full. If you eat them before, and have your meal 15 - 20 minutes after that, the fruits will have been digested and won't have to wait for their turn. It is as simple as that.

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/is-it-go ... -meal.html
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:55 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Hey, just imagine, in the future there will be no more searching, as it were, in the dark, no, those days will seem primitive, there will be a machine, working on light and some kind of super sensory machinal organ, like a replica of human senses but then manified 10-thousand fold, reacting to acidic, alkaline content and differences, immediately detecting when they changed and registering what that means, to form a picture invisible normally, all of this with every kind of sense somehow, even registering vibrations that took place and are stored in the objects in a space, scan a room and it will register everything.
It's like you know everything is there but you cannot see it.

It'll be a super machine, like a blood hound, it will detect death on someone, in ways not presently known or used, so Knox and Sollecito could stand there telling lies but the machine would go haywire with what it detected as yto chemicals that develop when a person dies, and which get onto and uinto a person who had contact with that dead person, so you might wash something off but the macjhine would pick it up in the pores, in the ears.

This bit about Sollecito cleaning Knox's ears come to think of it, that says/tells me they were really into a cleanup, like trying to get every trace off themselves. The clothes they had on, I think they dumped them, I mean it would not be that hard to put them into someone else's garbage container, wouldn't be hard at all, and they must have done that.

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:36 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Happy Birthday, Capey!
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:59 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

dgfred wrote:
zorba wrote:
Seeing as how they had so much stool from Guede, would have been good if they'd analysed that too, for content, to see if he'd eaten anything that Meredith had eaten.

In fact, they could have determined a couple of things by analysing Knox and Sollecito's excrement, as then, if they'd all had the same stuff in their intestines, they would have been able to disqualify certain lies, like I was never there.


Hey Z.
They were not really suspects until they started blabbing on the 5th. Until that time they were only witnesses who were found at the crime scene... and were some of the last people to actually see Meredith that day/night.

This is the problem with drugs in the system/hair too IMO. Who knows what they would have found in them if tested immediately. I bet they did some extra cleaning and trashing too between the murder and the 5th. They obviously didn't sit around fixing up their made-up alibi/s.

sc-))


Oh yeah, still, I think they probably were at police headquarters from day one, and like in airports where they don't know who has what but know someone has, like drugs in their stomachs, smuggling them in condoms, etc, then if they do check someone out, and give them a laxative, the toilet the poor soul gets to sit down on, does not flush down into a sewer, no, it has transparent pipes leading from the WC pot into a room behind, the poor soul (suffering from the laxative) doesn't know or see any of this, like the transparent nature of the piping, but anything that comes out gets seen and captured and gets seen before attempting to capture it, not that it can escape as it comes into that special room, in a special transparent container, before being deemed fit for disposal and flushed on into the true sewer.

I guess every police department ought to have this, then just in case, they could have better already have suspected these people and acquired some samples, just in case.

If the airport has suspicions and is allowed to give people laxatives and check their doo doos without anyone knowing they are actually up to that then surely if someone is murdered, checking people out is not the same as saying we know you did it or think you did, instead it means to say, we don't know who did it but for all we know it might be you and so we MUST make these checks. If you did nothing and have nothing to hide then the tests will show that, as far as possible.

So if they'd all eaten pizza at 9.30 but all said they did not see Meredith, their stomachs would have told a different story, one that would have warranted arresting them, without needing anything else, simply because their stomachs said they'd been lying, so something is up.

I can see people being hauled in, not with, I need you to accompany me to police headquarters to take your fingerprints but rather to take a dump.

Anyhow, it may be ridiculous but still, all of them ought to have been tested for drugs immediately, just like I say, airports can check people out in order to try to stop crime so why, if there has been a murder, should the police not be within their rights to do some tests on those closest to the scene of the crime or anyone somehow connected, possibly connected?

Just imagine if Knox & Sollecito has tested positive for cocaine and or speed or a combi of drugs!

They could have gone on about how awful that one joint they smoked was, and how it was all to blame on that one joint, that they were only stoned that one time but the tests would have blown that right out of the water. They (the authorities) were far too kind and correct/polite in Perugia.

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Last edited by zorba on Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:11 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

How do you know all that stuff Zorba :) I didn't even think of them all sharing some food. They could indeed all have shared a pizza or something. No need for Meredith to bring any leftovers if the others were eating there, she might just have joined in for a bite. You think they would bring a kitchen knife for that meal?
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:28 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

dgfred wrote:
zorba wrote:
Seeing as how they had so much stool from Guede, would have been good if they'd analysed that too, for content, to see if he'd eaten anything that Meredith had eaten.

In fact, they could have determined a couple of things by analysing Knox and Sollecito's excrement, as then, if they'd all had the same stuff in their intestines, they would have been able to disqualify certain lies, like I was never there.


Hey Z.

This is the problem with drugs in the system/hair too IMO. Who knows what they would have found in them if tested immediately. I bet they did some extra cleaning and trashing too between the murder and the 5th. They obviously didn't sit around fixing up their made-up alibi/s.

sc-))



The idea of Sollecito roaming around town, in Perugia, recently, struck me as odd, as well as nasty, I mean what would he be doing there?

He can think he has gotten away with it, yet I'm certain so many Italians think he's guilty, and, he in that way, did their town a bad, a very bad turn, because all as the news brought was negative stuff while the actual truth is, Perugia is in the area prized most highly, of all Italy, along with Firenza and Toscana, it's climate even, isn't as cold as the most northerly spots but not as extremely hot as the southern parts, it's lush and fertile, instead of cold steel and glass modernity, the buildings breathe life and a sense of wonder, the adventure one feels while walking up an ancient cobbled street is something that hardly exists any longer in the northern countries with their one-size-fits-all architecture, I say architecture but I don't really see it as that, no, it's not worthy, it's simply joining up the lines, squares and oblongs, click here, done.

You can say what you like, anyone can, about things they know nothing of, however, for example, in Tunisia what struck me was that the views were unspoiled by horrid, modern skyscrapers and suchlike, they do have them but it seemed like someone stopped them being placed just any-old-where, as the total picture would be ruined, so they do not do it.

Sadly, in Westernised (meaning developed) countries it seems these oh I'm so important bodies (often architectural graduates just finished studying and keen to put their stamp on everything or make some name), in collaboration with municipalities and along with huge sums of money involved, do pretty much what they like, imposing a harsh, dead-like feel onto the overall community, and I'm not talking nonsense here, as it has been shown that modernism - like the supermarkets and other big stores taking over as they cut out all competition - leads to all small stores closing, yet at a certain point the sense of community is killed off too, as a place stops living, so what happens then, yeah, nobody wants to go shopping there, and so the big stores kill themselves too in thge end and they norticed it too when they started earning less money.

That's why there has been a trend for those huge chain stores to introduce smaller branches, in amongst the rest of the ordinary stores, instead of forcing yet another huge store onto everyone.
They didn't start introducing small stores because they really wanted to, they started doing it to protect their own livelihood.

So there you have reality, Perugia a vibrant, prosperous and beautiful spot, being contaminated by the murder, and then there where they, many, think it was Sollecito, he goes back there, I mean, surely he would be taking risks by even being seen around there, I doubt he is about to win any popularity competitions.
Shows what a callous person he is and what a nerve he has.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:55 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

max wrote:
How do you know all that stuff Zorba :) I didn't even think of them all sharing some food. They could indeed all have shared a pizza or something. No need for Meredith to bring any leftovers if the others were eating there, she might just have joined in for a bite. You think they would bring a kitchen knife for that meal?



To be honest, only started thinking about it when trying to say something meaningful in response to your posts.

In addition to the above, at airports, they do not tell people what they are up to, as is the case with all policing bodies, if they tell you what they do and why they do it, how they do it, then those wishing to avoid detection, will know how to avoid getting caught, so at an airport if they think you are bringing in heroin, they will not say we are going to give you a laxative, they'll give you tea or coffee with laxative in it, when you yourself ask for the WC, they will be waiting to catch whatever comes out. If nothing does come out, they'll send you on your way, probably after giving you a pill to counteract the laxative's effects, they won't say that pill is specifically for that, they'll say here's a pill for your upset tummy.
This is the way, one of them, that they control people, but, somehow they are allowed - because of the need to control - to do this.

This is why, in view of murder, I reckon the police ought to be able to do a few things, none of them abusive, but if you have nothing to hide, like especially if you lived in a house where someone got murdered, you'd gladly help if only to show it's not you they are looking for.
Instead we see Knox only complaining when we know she enjoyed the beverages and foods offered. I think she is such a little liar.

I reckon, had Knox and Sollecito nothing to hide, the way they'd have looked (back at Napoleoni instead of avoiding her eyes) and acted and spoken, would have been filled with the ordinary things of reaction, instead, their actions & reactions and the rest lacked everything needed, lacked these necessary, ordinary elements because they had everything to hide.

The way Knox's family set about a strategy using utter and complete stereotyping of the black male is a disgrace, it reminds me of Dave Chappel, Well, no, no Johnson, I don't think I need the artist, I can draw a photo-fit with stensils, calling all cars, be on the lookout for a black male, cap on back to front, height between 4.1 and 6.9, big lips, yeah that's him.

Police at the scene: Well, it looks like he might still be here, he's hung up photos of himself all around the house (black people and the idea that they are all uneducated beggars without homes and cannot be successful)

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Offline dgfred


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Right Z... the Italians were correct and mostly polite. They actually deserved to be suspects from moment one. They were not until they basically 'forced' the authorities to arrest them.
One blows the other's alibi out of the water.
The other panics and accuses a completely innocent man.

Although I am SURE they had their suspicions... but the two's statements still had to be surprising.

Looking forward to 'seeing/reading' those alibi emails RS mentions in his book... that should completely exonerate him. Wonder why we haven't seen them anywhere??? Yeah, right.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:10 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Hi Yes DGfred

I'm certain in prison, it was not the prison officers that caused them any harm, on the contrary, the officers were definitely given instructions to make sure nothing happened to any of them, that's logical, however, I bet the other inmates gave them shit, there are bound to be certain people that really took the piss out of them, but you are not going to read about any of that, in any of their books. The fact is, people in prison kind of know who is really guilty and who is not, you could say that there is an abundance of experts on that running around, as they are criminals themselves, many in and out for years, they know the juvenile institutions, they know many prisons, they know people who work there, not only do co-imprisoned people know these things, but the prison officers do too, and although the officer gets to go home, they work a lot of shifts because the money isn't bad at all, or else they'd never get anyone to work there, I mean it isn't like it's a sunny atmosphere.
So they are kind of like in prison too and though the con is there for crime, at a certain level, when loose of the crime, or forgetting it for a minute, con and officers are are similar in ways, the con has no keys and stays in there, the officer has keys and goes home but early next morning he or she is back, trudging up and down the hard stone walled corridors, the sound of slamming doors. Therefore the person working in such an institution very much feels what it is like to be a prisioner as any officer are virtually one too.

So they get to talking, the cons know and acknowledge the prison officers are not the same as police officers; the police and prison staff don't always get on too well because outside of the prison the officer is also a civilian and can be arrested like anyone else, the power is different, yet in the prison, the policeman has no power, it's a world of its own and police in a way, see the prison officewrs as a competitor for power., as the p;ice like to think they have it all, yet in a prison, they have nothing to say at all and do not like that barrier. Prison officers know this and so the two are well-aware of one another, for if a policeman or a judge turens to crime, then he/she will also become subject to the power of the prison, which in that way, shows that the prison kind of overpowers the police too, as they are also not above the law.

And anyone who does get to go into a prison, can't just go and sit in someone's cell, that's why Knox is a liar, no way, they have very strict rules, partly to protect themselves, they are never going into a cell on their own with no second officer outside, they could get killed or locked in. Even the clerics, etc, do not ever get to go into a cell, there are special places for these visits and that's why it is so easy to catch Knox out with her lying.

Sollecito too, hew did not ever look like someone suffering abuse, why? Yes, because he newver ever suffered any at all, after all, if he had surely he would hhave let it be known, long before a period of several years, who the hell does he think he is a kidding? The man's timing is way off, and too late means just that; TOO late.

So after a while those imprisoned for a long time mellow out and don't talk hard at the officers, and the officers are humans too, even if they have to keep everyone locked up, they see then so many of these individuals in dire straits that they get to know who is genuinely innocent and who is definitely guilty.

I am certain that in Italy the officers had a good old laugh about Bambie, once everyone was locked up for the night, Bambi, it's the height of satire in Italy, it's what they say about the most corrupt ugly looking politicians, and mafia, and the satire is exactly in the sheer ugliness of these people in their rotten deeds that can be unspeakable and then their eyes all lying, their mouths dripping with dirt, and then saying, I'm innocent. Innocent, ha ha ha, these crooks, these killers, ah, look at Bambi, wouldn't harm a fly, how lovely, but truth is, they've paid people to murder others, paid for this paid for that stolen a countries wealth, so when they used this term oin Knox, my God they thought she was guilty, full stop.

Christ, Knox must have been slow not to grasp that they were taking the piss out of her.

It's like you have a Nazi criminal at Nuremberg and you refer to him as Bambi.

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Offline max


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:06 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

I remember that Bambi stuff. I felt a bit sorry for Edda even, although I am not sure if she was just playing stupid.

Quote:
She also explained her daughter's new moniker: "The guards call her Bambi. Maybe it's to do with her big eyes and her innocence or because she is a helpless animal."

http://www.theweek.co.uk/people-news/am ... w-nickname

Yah sure, her innocence. Hello, she is in prison. Of course, they are being sarcastic. For some reason I can't see doc Sollecito reacting like this, calling his son innocent if the prison guards named him 'The Saint' or whatever.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:10 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Although it is a bit speculative, the idea that they ate something together does fit with the stomach content and 'somebody' mentioned eating together before. Being with others would also be a good explanation why she didn't call her parents back. So even though it might seem a stretch at first, I find it interesting to see how some things start to make a bit of sense.

Quote:
"The fact there is Meredith's DNA on the kitchen knife is because once when we were all cooking together I accidentally pricked her hand. I apologized immediately and she said it was not a problem."
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Thanks Max, for setting all the stomach content rubbish straight. I'm sick if them boring me to tears with it.

I've stored it for posterity in the 'Forensics' subforum: viewtopic.php?p=101834#p101834

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Hi All

Hey Max, yeah, if you look at that article and have my words fresh in your mind you get a decent perspective of just how ridiculously stupid Knox's mother was by even mentioning such weak crap like that, it's so awful how mom tried to use it for real, as though the dear old officers called her it because they thought she was innocent, sure, the truth is, it was around the other way, as I explained in detail.
Any Italian would get it immediately because they just love that particular sarcastic macabre joke, because, it is macabre, using it when people know. all of them. how awful someone is, it's likle calling Adolf Hitler Jesus..

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Big story coming out on PMF.net today. Watch this space!

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Offline dgfred


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Like we don't anyway my friend ;) .
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

So turned down 1400 euro's worth of work today, they wanted it returned by the 4th as it is now almost weekend, and there is then only one working day before Christmas, I thought I don't need this, as it would have meant working this weekend, being nervous about it during Christmas, having to stick at it day in day out,be nernous around New Year with still tons to do then have to work that next weekend too to get it done, comes a time when you need to fix stuff, clean up, see your grandchild or/and take a few day's holiday. No good having to accept everything for fear of them not sending you more work, I though the restaurant trade was stressed but at least it keeps you fit, running about like a blue arsed fly all day, morning, night.

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:37 pm   Post subject: SFARZO~GATE   

Hi, everyone, and thanks for your patience. Since we first broke the story on November 16, 2012 about Francesco Sforza, aka Frank Sfarzo, the Perugian 'reporter's' arrest in Hawaii, I have been following up on all the leads and clarifying and correcting some of the initial reports. I would like to thank 'Bettina', the one time supporter of Frank Sfarzo, for speaking out against the abuse she suffered, and sticking by her words in the face of lies and abuse by Frank Sfarzo, and lack of support from the moderator and admins of the advocacy organization, Innocence-Anywhere. I am also grateful to the members of I-A who verified the crucial facts of this article, and will be keeping their names confidential as well.

Bettina's story has been confirmed. We've obtained the court file from the Hawaiian State Judiciary and the police report, and verified them as correct, as initially reported. Since they are in read-only format, and show her name and address, we will not be posting the documents, but only summarizing them, and posting the police report. Even though this is now in the public domain, and her name released by members of I-A, we will maintain her privacy.

Edit: We got a fix to the problem, (thanks, Nell!) and the court documents are now attached.

And another point: Shortly after Frank Sfarzo was released, he wrote this:

Frank Sfarzo Timeline November 19, 2012 http://www.facebook.com/frank.sfarzo?fref=ts
"Therefore, anything that is said on perugiamurderfile is not true, any document they produce may be a fake".

I'm sorry, but now anyone can search for State of Hawaii vs Francesco Sforca to see who's telling the truth, or not, and I also note that you gave the European spelling of your name, SFORCA, to mislead us? Good thing I spoke to a helpful lady who found the file for me when I made the initial enquiry.

The Police Report:
PROBABLE CAUSE
C l2030504
HARASSMENT
KN
Quote:
"On 11-13-2012 as approximately 0045 hours, I received a report of a domestic dispute at
Kona Islander Inn, room.#235. Upon arrival I was contacted by Hotel Security who stated
a male and female were arguing in room #235. The female guest had called the front desk
asking for police. I contacted , F-53, who explained Francesco
SFORCA, M-48, was visiting from Italy and staying in her room. SFORCA became
verbally abusive towards her, and an argument ensued. During the course of the argument
SFORCA pushed F-53 out of the room into the hallway with enough force to
cause her to fall to the ground, striking the wall…. stated it did not cause pain,
but she was alarmed and harassed by SFORCA verbal abuse and physical contact….
explained she was going to receive "bruising" and showed her left shin.
F-53 explained "it is not right for a man to push around a woman". SFORCA
made spontaneous statement that he was not going to leave the room because he paid for
the room. SFORCA stated he accidentally struck (her) with his bag. SFORCA was
advised of his Miranda Warnings which he stated he did not understand his rights.
SFORCA is a Italian National and spoke fluent English during preliminary investigation
and booking process."


This is from Frank's letter to his supporters:

Frank Sfarzo wrote:
"of course, as I already said, I did not beat her or pushed her, on the contrary, as soon as I entered the room she thrown a bag on me, beat me, pushed me and kicked my other bag. This all in an instant. I saw that she was completely out of control so I didn't react and I fell between a bed and the wall, in that moment she thrown my other bag out of the room.

She had told me to have recently reported two men for harassing and for rape, so I definitely avoided any argue.

I went to collect my stuff and I said I was going. That made her more mad and she yelled that she didn't have spent all those money for sleeping alone in a hotel room. Since I didn't answer she threatened me that she would have called the police and tell them that I had beaten her. I told her to go for it. So she was undisturbed in calling the police with me in the room, which by itself proves that no violence there was by my side, otherwise I would have prevented her to call the police, don't you think?

Not even she said that I've beaten her, she said that I've pushed her. She doesn't say why. So I hope she comes to court and tells us WHY should I have pushed her... I instead know WHY she kicked my stuff and assaulted me, stole my stuff, stole the contact information of my friends form my cellphone, disturbed them by telephone, violated our privacy, and I can't wait to tell it to the judge.

You can forward this to the others. I was preparing a total wrap up, but I don't know if people are interested. Maybe they are more interested in Bettina's delusions...."


This is the administrator of Innocence-Anywhere, Bruce Fischer, engaging in what appears to be a cover up.

Bruce Fischer wrote:
Post subject: Re: Today over at PMF
Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:41 pm
Site Admin
Location: USA

"According to Frank, he and Bettina had an argument, Bettina became angry and threw some luggage at him in the hotel room and was violent toward him. She told him she was going to call the police and say he was beating her. He said go ahead. Bettina called the police in the hotel room with Frank in the room with her. If Frank pushed her out of the room (as Bettina claims in her police statement) then how did she call the police from inside the room? If Frank was being violent then why was the call placed from the room Frank was in? Wouldn't it have been more logical for Bettina to go to the front desk to get help if Frank pushed her? Why go back in the room? Additionally, wouldn't Frank have tried to prevent that call if he was being violent as Bettina suggests?

Bettina's story doesn't add up. Her behavior after the incident is suspect as well. She took Frank's phone when he was taken to the police station and she contacted everyone on his phone's contact list to tell them Frank was a fraud and now the entire world would know. Is this normal behavior from someone that was just assaulted? Sounds vindictive to me.

It is disappointing to have to post this information about a member here but I feel its necessary now that Bettina has decided to spread misinformation about the incident.

This is nothing more than an argument between two adults that got out of hand. The small fine ($100) suggested by the court is proof of that".


No, Mr. Fischer. Your statements, and the deletion of Bettina's comments on your forum, and allowing your members to attack her suggest that after pleading for financial support for Frank Sfarzo on your website, and getting many people to donate amounts that appear to be in the tens of thousands of dollars, and invite a volatile, abusive person into their homes, whose writings form the basis of the 'research' in yours, Candace Dempsey's, and Nina Burleigh's books, your first response was to...cover up.

Summary of the Hawaii hearings:
Frank was brought in for an initial hearing, and bail was set at $250 (it does not appear he paid it) and he was therefore let go on supervised release. In the mean time he kept calling Bettina and threatening to sue her, despite being told not to contact her. She decided not to press charges, hoping he would quietly leave the island, but he kept this up even after the case was dismissed, boasting of the expensive cocktails he was enjoying at his hotel. It appears though, that the growing uproar from his donors, once they learned of this, caused him to stop making waves and quietly leave the Island, and return to Italy around November 29.

In the course of this investigation, the following came to light, which turned out to be much more. We'd known that he has a history of abusive behaviour, and that he's been charged by his sister for taking advantage of his mother. We know that he's been dodging a hearing for biting a policewoman, but it turns out that he continued this pattern when he came to North America.

We know that Frank lied on his initial visit across the border to Canada and his passport seized. He was required to re-appear the next day when his supporters went and bailed him out. But this was what transpired during his second visit to Canada:

e740jph wrote:
Post subject: Re: Today over at PMF
Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:17 pm
Location: British Columbia, Canada
"I spent 2 hours with Canadian immigration officials trying to get Frank Sfarzo into Canada for his second visit. They finally agreed to let him in on the condition that he would not be able to re-enter if he left Canada. I think we all know than Mr. Sfarzo's visit ended up disastrously. Unlike Bettina, I have tried to keep quiet about the reasons why I finally had to call the police to remove Frank from my premises. Also, unlike the guilters, I believe firmly that AK and RS are innocent.

Frank was not asleep at 4:00 a.m. when I called the police for assistance. Instead I felt increasingly threatened after a totally unnecessary hostile argument. I was subsequently interviewed the next day by a police officer (with tape recorder) to clarify questions about Sfarzo accusing me of sexual molestation. Talk about a desperate "Hail Mary Pass".

The police then advised that he had returned to the US. I have had a number of p.m. with Bruce. He did not give me the courtesy of advising me me of his decision.

So, I am calling you out on this one, Bruce. You are the moderator, but I can disagree and be disappointed with your decision. Unfortunate! I should have saved the $5,000 I donated for Frank's support.

p.s. Bill Williams - why are you hiding?"


So, after his generous host pays for his air fare from Italy, donates $5000, and hosts Frank for more than three weeks, Frank's thanks is to become erratic and abusive and accuse his 71 yr old host of trying to sexually molest him?

When Bettina called people about his behaviour she was told by Chris Mellas, Amanda Knox's step father, that Frank was a 'mooch' who stayed at Edda Mellas's sister's house for a few days, and was supposed to stay for two weeks with Curt and Edda, but dragged it on for two months all told. This was interrupted by his Canadian interlude. He was then asked to leave when he started making advances towards Amanda.

He went from there to a boarding house, but when he got into a fight with the other tenants got himself invited to Hawaii. Bettina paid for his air fare and other expenses but when she wasn't forthcoming with further moneys or marriage, (he's desperately trying to get a Green Card) that's when he turned abusive. This being his pattern when people don't help him enough, and Hawaii was also where he badmouthed Amanda's family and called her a "slut".

How is all of this pertinent to the case or the purpose of this site? First of all, I did not solicit any of this information. I merely expressed my sympathy towards 'Bettina' when I read what happened on I-A (the post was deleted within the hour, good thing I saved it) and it was she that contacted me, and after that, others did. Yes, it is newsworthy when the journalist whose claims about the so called abusive behaviour of ONE Perugian prosecutor have so influenced reporting on the case in North America, turns out to not only have a pecuniary interest in peddling this myth, but also had violent altercations in four separate locations? Is it not news that many donors feel they've been mislead about him?

Or that CPJ, the organization that supposedly monitors mistreatment of journalists world-wide, took his allegations of mistreatment by Italian prosecutor Mignini without fact checking and solely based on his say so and that of their major donor the writer Doug Preston, who ALSO has a pecuniary interest in promoting the myth of 'bad, evil', PM Mignini? Or that, trying to avoid the looming criminal case against him in Italy, he has been actively trying to convince someone, anyone, to sponsor/marry him?

We first heard about Frank Sfarzo in Barbie Nadeau's Angel Face where the writer reports him plying copies of police reports and evidence to foreign media. Then he placed copyright claims on some crime scene videos he has no right to, such as one at http://www.amandaknox.it/ which is from the politzia scientifica yet he's stuck his name on it, and had some videos pulled from youtube based on a claim of copyright infringement when he has no right to them.

But in the end, it was a story about a woman who got taken in by a con man, and when she tried to speak up, about the abuse, was shouted down. That she continued to stand by what she said, is the story, and I am glad to have helped her.

Quote:
Bettina said:
"Winter greetings...I have sent a copy of the police report to Ergon. It will be posted soon. Frank once again got himself into trouble by telling lies to law enforcement. I will let the report speak for itself. Har...um, embarrassing.

All I can say is the report does not even match his silly story about me throwing luggage at him..tsk.

Further, Frank complained bitterly about never being thanked by the Knox/Mellas crew. As a survivor of F, I can understand why".


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Offline malvern


Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:27 pm

Posts: 503

PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:16 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Thank you for the whole story which is worse than what I'd imagined. It will be interesting how BF will deal with these facts. Those that attacked Bettina should apologize. Kay pea and others are due for a reality check. Frank is not only abusive but cannot be trusted to tell the truth regarding his arrest and Mignini. What is his real interest in the case? Those who have believed in his " reporting" to date should now question the source.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:33 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Thanks, Ergon. At this juncture, I think it would be worth adding Nell's assessment of the police report and what light this shines on both Frank Sforza and Bruce Fischer. Fischer has some serious questions to be answering, especially to his own people to whom he's been lying through his teeth:

Nell wrote:
Ergon wrote:
--- snip ---

Bruce Fischer says he saw the police report, yet here it is, contradicting what he wrote about it. Amazing.

--- snap ---


First thing I noticed when I read the document was that the story Sfarzo allegedly told Fischer doesn't tally with what he told the police officer at the scene. I suspect that Fischer hoped the police report would be skimpy on the details and this way have a chance to get away with his version of events.

Most notable for me are these points:

- Sfarzo made a spontaneous statement to police that he was unwilling to leave the hotel room, because he had paid for it. One statement, two contradictions: According to what Sfarzo said in an email (published through KayPea on IA) he was threatening to leave the hotel room and she became upset. Tamale/Bettina said she paid for the hotel room and this has never been disputed by Frank Sfarzo. Another contradiction.

- Sfarzo stated to police he accidentally struck tamale/Bettina with his bag. But Bruce Fischer and KayPea say on IA that Sfarzo told / wrote them that it was tamale/Bettina who threw luggage at him, not the other way around. In order to "struck" someone with luggage that it is worthy of note, I would say you have to throw it, so what does that say about Sforza's behaviour that day?

- The police officer pointed out in his report that despite Sfarzo being more or less fluent in English he insisted he did not understand what the police man told him.

KayPea wrote:
Post subject: Re: Today over at PMF
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:31 am
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2010 3:40 pm
Posts: 792
Location: Seattle WA

He Said, She Said.

Posted on PMF.

tamale/Bettina wrote:
Yes I am Bettina, using fake screen names because I did not want drama. I did not wish to be public....


"I did not want drama. I did not wish to be public" *swearing warning* Bullshit!

Bettina I am hugely disappointed in your behavior. Running straight to PMF to smear Frank? Jeeze woman, YOU knew exactly what you were doing. YOU wanted this mess public. The proof was first by calling all of the peeps in Franks' phone to "ask for help" right after your own behavior (a la "loud fight in hotel room") was front and center, then by posting your rant in this public forum, (YOU, like all longtime posters, KNOW they troll here), then by running right over to PMF and airing dirty laundry when your post was taken down. Specifically to assure privacy until this mess was sorted out. YOU took care of any privacy concerns, didn't you?

btw, of the 'contacted' peeps, only a couple said she actually "asked for help." Others said she was a vindictive scorned woman.

By your own behavior, Bettina, you are proving yourself to be a liar. "I did not wish to be public." Riiiiight. Like anyone believes THAT statement.

Frank is frank. You know this, you have been chatting him up for years, you supported him on Perugia Shock. We ALL know that Frank is not a Casper Milquetoast when it comes to cops or when it comes to speaking his mind. So I'm not going into the personal part of this very public situation, but I do have permission to publicize Frank's version of the fight between you two.

Specifically because it is the reason the cops were called. I asked him to be straight about your fight so that we could all decide what to do. The personal between them will remain, but I can say that "jealousy" played a major role.

What is really sad is that Bettina COULD have counted on our support, but she shot herself in the foot by her own behavior. The irony of what she is doing is not lost on me, either, because I had just finished an article on the mechanics of the Smear Campaign that Mignini used to ensnare the kids. Bettina did exactly the same thing right before my eyes.

The sad part is that none of this was necessary, it could have been handled in-house and only Frank and Bettina's close confidants would have heard the story.

I, obviously, am very suspicious WHY Bettina felt she needed to PUBLICIZE this mess in a way where Frank had no chance of countering her claims. This is defo a Smear Campaign by definition.

Franks' account of the fight.

Frank Sfarzo wrote:
of course, as I already said, I did not beat her or pushed her, on the contrary, as soon as I entered the room she thrown a bag on me, beat me, pushed me and kicked my other bag. This all in an instant. I saw that she was completely out of control so I didn't react and I fell between a bed and the wall, in that moment she thrown my other bag out of the room.

She had told me to have recently reported two men for harassing and for rape, so I definitely avoided any argue.

I went to collect my stuff and I said I was going. That made her more mad and she yelled that she didn't have spent all those money for sleeping alone in a hotel room. Since I didn't answer she threatened me that she would have called the police and tell them that I had beaten her. I told her to go for it. So she was undisturbed in calling the police with me in the room, which by itself proves that no violence there was by my side, otherwise I would have prevented her to call the police, don't you think?

Not even she said that I've beaten her, she said that I've pushed her. She doesn't say why. So I hope she comes to court and tells us WHY should I have pushed her... I instead know WHY she kicked my stuff and assaulted me, stole my stuff, stole the contact information of my friends form my cellphone, disturbed them by telephone, violated our privacy, and I can't wait to tell it to the judge.

You can forward this to the others. I was preparing a total wrap up, but I don't know if people are interested. Maybe they are more interested in Bettina's delusions....


Now you guys have the other side.

Bettina. Walk away from PMF. Own your part of this mess. Go snorkeling when it is all over.


Bruce Fischer wrote:
Post subject: Re: Today over at PMF
Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:59 pm
Site Admin
Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 8:26 am
Posts: 1473
Location: USA

Ergon is talking to Bettina. He claims it is has nothing to do with us, he just wants to help someone in need. The guy has absolutely no credibility. What a pathetic excuse for a human being.

Anyway, the details are all wrong. Bettina could not remember what day the incident occurred so she will have to get back to Ergon on that. I find that strange.

Bettina said Frank was in jail all week awaiting his hearing. That is false. I have been talking to Frank and I know he is not in jail. He is in a hotel using the hotel computer to communicate with me. Not Jail. So the misinformation continues to flow as usual from .net.

I have obtained the police report and the charge is a misdemeanor harassment charge. They offered Frank a deal to plead guilty to the minor charge and pay $100 fine but Frank refused. He wants the truth to prevail.

We will not be posting any documents until the hearing has concluded. There is no reason to give PMF information they can use to harass those involved. Bettina may very well offer that information but we certainly will not.

I am disappointed that Bettina has decided to go to PMF to tell her story. I find that behavior to be highly suspect. She can tell Ergon anything, facts don't matter to him.

She has been a long time contributor here so its a shame to see her acting like this. She is still a member here and it welcome to tell her side of the story as long as the other speculation about the group that is non-related is not included.


Bruce Fischer wrote:
Post subject: Re: Today over at PMF
Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:41 pm
Site Admin
Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 8:26 am
Posts: 1473
Location: USA

According to Frank, he and Bettina had an argument, Bettina became angry and threw some luggage at him in the hotel room and was violent toward him. She told him she was going to call the police and say he was beating her. He said go ahead. Bettina called the police in the hotel room with Frank in the room with her. If Frank pushed her out of the room (as Bettina claims in her police statement) then how did she call the police from inside the room? If Frank was being violent then why was the call placed from the room Frank was in? Wouldn't it have been more logical for Bettina to go to the front desk to get help if Frank pushed her? Why go back in the room? Additionally, wouldn't Frank have tried to prevent that call if he was being violent as Bettina suggests?

Bettina's story doesn't add up. Her behavior after the incident is suspect as well. She took Frank's phone when he was taken to the police station and she contacted everyone on his phone's contact list to tell them Frank was a fraud and now the entire world would know. Is this normal behavior from someone that was just assaulted? Sounds vindictive to me.

It is disappointing to have to post this information about a member here but I feel its necessary now that Bettina has decided to spread misinformation about the incident.

This is nothing more than an argument between two adults that got out of hand. The small fine ($100) suggested by the court is proof of that.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:45 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

So, right from the beginning, Bruce Fischer claimed to have obtained the police report (although, refused to post it) and claimed that it supported Frank's version of events and all but publicly called Bettina a liar. Yet, on reading the report, it clearly contradicts Frank Sforza's version of events as published on his behalf by Bruce Fischer and KayPea. And certainly, Frank's version does not match what he told the police. Frank Sforza is a barefaced liar and Bruce Fischer and cohort KayPea have knowingly and actively been supporting that lie, a lie not intended for us, but for their own people! Fischer and Kaypea have some explaining to do, not to mention a good deal of public apologising to Bettina, someone who was already a victim whom they victimised all over again, just to protect their precious Frank!

Just to compare, Frank's version of events as posted on his behalf by KayPea:

Frank Sforza wrote:
of course, as I already said, I did not beat her or pushed her, on the contrary, as soon as I entered the room she thrown a bag on me, beat me, pushed me and kicked my other bag. This all in an instant. I saw that she was completely out of control so I didn't react and I fell between a bed and the wall, in that moment she thrown my other bag out of the room.

She had told me to have recently reported two men for harassing and for rape, so I definitely avoided any argue.

I went to collect my stuff and I said I was going. That made her more mad and she yelled that she didn't have spent all those money for sleeping alone in a hotel room. Since I didn't answer she threatened me that she would have called the police and tell them that I had beaten her. I told her to go for it. So she was undisturbed in calling the police with me in the room, which by itself proves that no violence there was by my side, otherwise I would have prevented her to call the police, don't you think?

Not even she said that I've beaten her, she said that I've pushed her. She doesn't say why. So I hope she comes to court and tells us WHY should I have pushed her... I instead know WHY she kicked my stuff and assaulted me, stole my stuff, stole the contact information of my friends form my cellphone, disturbed them by telephone, violated our privacy, and I can't wait to tell it to the judge.

You can forward this to the others. I was preparing a total wrap up, but I don't know if people are interested. Maybe they are more interested in Bettina's delusions....



The police version of events from their report:

The Police wrote:
On 11-13-2012 as approximately 0045 hours, I received a report of a domestic dispute at
Kona Islander Inn, room.#235. Upon arrival I was contacted by Hotel Security who stated
a male and female were arguing in room #235. The female guest had called the front desk
asking for police. I contacted , F-53, who explained Francesco
SFORCA, M-48, was visiting from Italy and staying in her room. SFORCA became
verbally abusive towards her, and an argument ensued. During the course of the argument
SFORCA pushed F-53 out of the room into the hallway with enough force to
cause her to fall to the ground, striking the wall…. stated it did not cause pain,
but she was alarmed and harassed by SFORCA verbal abuse and physical contact….
explained she was going to receive "bruising" and showed her left shin.
F-53 explained "it is not right for a man to push around a woman". SFORCA
made spontaneous statement that he was not going to leave the room because he paid for
the room. SFORCA stated he accidentally struck (her) with his bag. SFORCA was
advised of his Miranda Warnings which he stated he did not understand his rights.
SFORCA is a Italian National and spoke fluent English during preliminary investigation
and booking process.


Spot the problems?

Note: This is the complete account from the report by the police. The only element that we have removed from the text is the name of the victim.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline tamale


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:13 pm

Posts: 615

PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:03 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Thank you PMF for giving me a voice. I found Ergon to be fair and accurate.

Shame on Bruce for covering my truth while promoting the lies of
frank. I thought you guys were about the truth...

Now everyone can judge for themselves. I am available to answer questions (truthfully).

Best, Bettina
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:13 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

And thank you, Bettina. I'm sure there will be more questions, and revelations, once people have the time to digest all this.

~ Ergon
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:19 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Hi, all. Thanks to Nell for fixing my problem of being unable to remove Bettina's private information. I will now add the court documents (edited only in that one instance) to my original article "Sfarzo~Gate" above.
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Offline Jackie


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Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:38 am

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 5:48 am   Post subject: Re: SFARZO~GATE   

Ergon wrote:
...We know that he's been dodging a hearing for biting a policewoman, but it turns out that he continued this pattern when he came to North America. ...


He bit a policeWOMAN?

How do you know this?
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:01 am   Post subject: Re: SFARZO~GATE   

Jackie wrote:
Ergon wrote:
...We know that he's been dodging a hearing for biting a policewoman, but it turns out that he continued this pattern when he came to North America. ...


He bit a policeWOMAN?

How do you know this?


That, I got from someone (might have been on .ORG) so I'm not sure about this, but it relates to the confrontation that occurred when his sister called the cops on him.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:32 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

tamale wrote:
Thank you PMF for giving me a voice. I found Ergon to be fair and accurate.

Shame on Bruce for covering my truth while promoting the lies of
frank. I thought you guys were about the truth...

Now everyone can judge for themselves. I am available to answer questions (truthfully).

Best, Bettina


Hi, Bettina - Once upon a time, I represented accused and, as a result, had occasion to defend men accused of battering their wives/ girlfriends in circumstances where no one, apart from the alleged victim and the accused, witnessed the 'unlawful application of force' in question.

At trial, these cases amounted to little more than 'lopsided' credibility contests - I say lopsided because, while the accused is (rightfully) afforded many protections under the law (the right to silence, the presumption of innocence, restrictive rules of evidence, etc.), the victim is not: generally, she must take the stand and face a withering, ofttimes humiliating cross-examination at the hands of the accused's defense lawyer.

In effect, I was able to declare 'Open Season' on the women who took the stand against my clients, while said clients were free to avoid the tortures of cross-examination altogether. Even when a client with a history of domestic abuse would elect to take the stand, he could rest easy knowing the prosecution was barred from cross-examining him about his prior bad acts/ convictions unless, of course, he made the mistake of putting his 'character in issue' (for example, by asserting something along the lines of, "I'm a peaceful, non-violent man").

To this day, I pray that what I had to do to those women helped to achieve the ends of justice somehow - It is an awful thing to think that they were telling the truth and I was unwittingly helping their abuser to re-victimize them.

It was my duty to take those clients at their word and represent them zealously, but there is something truly perverse about a system that puts an accused (who may well be guilty - most cases do not entail wrongful accusations) on a pedestal while subjecting his (alleged) victim to yet another attack (albeit verbal) - in full view of the pubic - that stands to add even more damage to her dignity, spirit and soul.

To the extent that you, like so many women, have been abused only to find yourself intimidated by the prospect of taking the stand, my heart goes out to you.


PS That sentiment does not depend in any way on your beliefs about what really happened to Meredith - I have no problem with "true believers" on either side of the debate, so long as they're doing their best to sort fact from fiction which, in this case, is, IMHO, no easy task thanks to the language barrier, the sorry state of the 4th estate and the PR games afoot (the questions now raised about "Frank's" credibility, and the credibility of those who have endorsed him, are just the tip of the proverbial iceberg).


Last edited by Jackie on Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:14 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:39 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Yes, why am I not in the least bit surprised by Madam Frank's disturbing, aggressive, nasty, weak, frustrated... what else, ah yes, dirty behaviour?

His nastiness was clear when he said all of those plainly nasty things about a man who had just been released from prison for crimes he had been accused of by none other than Mister Amanda Knox. She seems like a butch man, he seems like a weak nancy, hurting girls, etc, and yes, by all means latch on, of all things, to a murder case, simply because you cannot earn a living and are a sponge.

I do not know who is scarier, Mister Amanda or Madam Frank, after all, thinking of his mother, with him back in town, wherever town now is, his dear mother will be hoping that her daughter has made their new address unfindable, or else you get home and find your stuff has been sold.
To me, Frank shows the behaviour I know from heroin addicts, hard, completely hard, once you've gone down that far.
Wouldn't surprise me at all to find out that this is part of his problem even if he doesn't use it now, I've known enough people to know they never are the easiest to get along with, personally, I prefer to avoid people who have not been at least 10 years clean, you cannot trust them.

But that he attempted to go for Mister Amanda, that doesn't surprise me either, in fact he's like a twin brother of the other creep Danny.

I mean, in light of murder you just have to be different in approach to all things concerned with it, therefore you cannot act like a dog, like such people have, and I mean, of all the people, women then, in the world, why would a guy need to go after a woman who is very deeply involved in murder, so deep that it seems that she is in it as deep as it gets, being thus a murderer.
What does that say about a man, that he would need to go to America to try to exploit a most horrific situation,

In spite of all this, on this account, I can in no way feel sorry for the Knox family, least of all Knox herself. They courted the twisted devil with their own twisted devilry, I mean who would they think these lunatics would be, like lovely gentle people when they have ignored every real fact and detail and aided you in your twisting of every possible bit too.

However, his real intention, I bet was not to seduce Knox for real but to get to be so close he'd find out everything and then exploit her by revealing it and then making himself a millionaire through that knowledge because then he would have had a real book.

But if you yourself are as devious as it gets how could you expect Sister Frank to be some kind of an angel, no: What you give out comes back to you multiplied.

La la la, la la, la la la

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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:32 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Bruce Fischer and his followers are insisting that the police report does not contradict anything they said on IA, because according to Bruce, it only contains tamale/Bettina's version of events. Well, that's not true at all, quite to the contrary, it also contains statements made by Frank Sfarzo to police that contradict the version of events he emailed to KayPea and Bruce Fischer. Furthermore the police officer noted in his report that Frank Sfarzo played dumb and that he claimed not to understand what the police said to him, despite being described by the police officer as fluent in English.

Bruce Fischer wrote:
Post subject: Re: Today over at PMF
Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:47 pm
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Oh Boy! I haven't been following insanity.net lately because this is a busy time of the year. The comments here led me to take a look. They are rambling on so much I didn't bother to read it all. What is all the fuss over the police report in Hawaii? Please tell me how that report excerpt .net posted contradicts anything I said here on this forum. The report does nothing more that explain Bettina's side of the story. Bettina and Frank obviously disagree!

Just so everyone is aware, if you accuse someone of attacking you and the charges are unwarranted, you cannot expect your name to remain private as you drag the name of someone else through the mud. It appears that .net and "Bettina" feel this is the case.

I have no idea why it took Ergon so long to obtain the police report. I was able to obtain the report in one day (it's public record). I didn't post it because I was showing respect for Bettina and Frank.

Just in case anyone here doubts my honesty regarding obtaining the police report (and I doubt anyone actually does), here is a screen shot. I see no reason to post the entire report. It does nothing to hurt Frank in any way but it would reveal Bettina's personal information (including name and address) which I see no reason for anyone needing to see even though .net's logic regarding her privacy is definitely twisted.

http://i.imgur.com/rx8Wy.jpg

Besides, Bruce Fischer is lying when he says he was able to receive the report after just one day, because when Ergon talked to the Kona District Court, days after the incident ocurred, the police report hadn't been filed yet. We had to wait until it was available in the system. All the information Bruce Fischer had was directly received from Frank Sfarzo. I am sure that the reason for him not releasing it is because it was too detailed and contained facts that contradicted Frank's version as published on IA.



Bruce Fischer wrote:
Post subject: Re: Today over at PMF
Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:31 pm
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Everything ended up just as we said it did. Frank had a disagreement with a woman in Hawaii. The police looked into it and determined it was nothing. The woman has now become an enemy of Frank and is now posting on .net saying shame on Bruce. She is free to do as she wishes. I wonder if Jackie the super lawyer will inform .net what the documents from Hawaii actually mean. I really have nothing further to add.

We already know that the charges have been dismissed without prejudice, which means that the case is only over if tamale/Bettina says it is. She is free to re-file the charges against Frank Sfarzo if that is her wish. We now have it in cold print that Frank lied when he insinuated tamale/Bettina became jealous when he threatened to leave her. Frank Sfarzo also admitted to police, and this has been noted in the police report by the attending police officer, that he "accidentally" hit tamale/Bettina with his luggage. Furthermore he told police that he refused to leave the room because he had paid for it. The truth is that tamale/Bettina paid for the hotel room and he even included that in his email to KayPea! That is in blatant contradiction to the scenario that he was leaving the hotel and she became jealous.

Compare yourself:


KayPea wrote:
Post subject: Re: Today over at PMF
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:31 am
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2010 3:40 pm
Posts: 792
Location: Seattle WA

[...]

Frank is frank. You know this, you have been chatting him up for years, you supported him on Perugia Shock. We ALL know that Frank is not a Casper Milquetoast when it comes to cops or when it comes to speaking his mind. So I'm not going into the personal part of this very public situation, but I do have permission to publicize Frank's version of the fight between you two.

Specifically because it is the reason the cops were called. I asked him to be straight about your fight so that we could all decide what to do. The personal between them will remain, but I can say that "jealousy" played a major role.

[...]

Franks' account of the fight.

Frank Sfarzo wrote:
of course, as I already said, I did not beat her or pushed her, on the contrary, as soon as I entered the room she thrown a bag on me, beat me, pushed me and kicked my other bag. This all in an instant. I saw that she was completely out of control so I didn't react and I fell between a bed and the wall, in that moment she thrown my other bag out of the room.

She had told me to have recently reported two men for harassing and for rape, so I definitely avoided any argue.

I went to collect my stuff and I said I was going. That made her more mad and she yelled that she didn't have spent all those money for sleeping alone in a hotel room. Since I didn't answer she threatened me that she would have called the police and tell them that I had beaten her. I told her to go for it. So she was undisturbed in calling the police with me in the room, which by itself proves that no violence there was by my side, otherwise I would have prevented her to call the police, don't you think?

Not even she said that I've beaten her, she said that I've pushed her. She doesn't say why. So I hope she comes to court and tells us WHY should I have pushed her... I instead know WHY she kicked my stuff and assaulted me, stole my stuff, stole the contact information of my friends form my cellphone, disturbed them by telephone, violated our privacy, and I can't wait to tell it to the judge.

You can forward this to the others. I was preparing a total wrap up, but I don't know if people are interested. Maybe they are more interested in Bettina's delusions....


Now you guys have the other side.

[...]



Bruce Fischer wrote:
Post subject: Re: Today over at PMF
Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:41 pm
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According to Frank, he and Bettina had an argument, Bettina became angry and threw some luggage at him in the hotel room and was violent toward him. She told him she was going to call the police and say he was beating her. He said go ahead. Bettina called the police in the hotel room with Frank in the room with her. If Frank pushed her out of the room (as Bettina claims in her police statement) then how did she call the police from inside the room? If Frank was being violent then why was the call placed from the room Frank was in? Wouldn't it have been more logical for Bettina to go to the front desk to get help if Frank pushed her? Why go back in the room? Additionally, wouldn't Frank have tried to prevent that call if he was being violent as Bettina suggests?

Bettina's story doesn't add up. Her behavior after the incident is suspect as well. She took Frank's phone when he was taken to the police station and she contacted everyone on his phone's contact list to tell them Frank was a fraud and now the entire world would know. Is this normal behavior from someone that was just assaulted? Sounds vindictive to me.

It is disappointing to have to post this information about a member here but I feel its necessary now that Bettina has decided to spread misinformation about the incident.

This is nothing more than an argument between two adults that got out of hand. The small fine ($100) suggested by the court is proof of that.


Now this is what Frank told police:

Quote:
PROBABLE CAUSE


On 11-13-2012 as approximately 0045 hours, I received a report of a domestic dispute at Kona Islander Inn, room.#235. Upon arrival I was contacted by Hotel Security who stated a male and female were arguing in room #235. The female guest had called the front desk asking for police. I contacted [NAME REMOVED], F-53, who explained Francesco SFORCA, M-48, was visiting from Italy and staying in her room. SFORCA became verbally abusive towards her, and an argument ensued. During the course of the argument SFORCA pushed [NAME REMOVED] out of the room into the hallway with enough force to cause her to fall to the ground, striking the wall. [NAME REMOVED] stated it did not cause pain, but she was alarmed and harassed by SFORCA verbal abuse and physical contact.
[NAME REMOVED] explained she was going to receive "bruising" and showed her left shin.
[NAME REMOVED] explained "it is not right for a man to push around a woman". SFORCA made spontaneous statement that he was not going to leave the room because he paid for the room. SFORCA stated he accidentally struck [NAME REMOVED] with his bag. SFORCA was advised of his Miranda Warnings which he stated he did not understand his rights.
SFORCA is a Italian National and spoke fluent English during preliminary investigation and booking process.


For the download of the report, please click here.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Nell wrote:
Bruce Fischer and his followers are insisting that the police report does not contradict anything they said on IA, because according to Bruce, it only contains tamale/Bettina's version of events. Well, that's not true at all, quite to the contrary, it also contains statements made by Frank Sfarzo to police that contradict the version of events he emailed to KayPea and Bruce Fischer. Furthermore the police officer noted in his report that Frank Sfarzo played dumb and that he claimed not to understand what the police said to him, despite being described by the police officer as fluent in English.


Fischer and Kaypea are simply playing dumb, pretending they can't see how Frank's version given to them, where he accused Bettina of assaulting him, directly contradicts the version he gave to the police, all so they don't have to admit they lied to their followers and in the process framed a completely innocent woman who is a victim.

And perhaps they also need reminding, this is the same Frank Sforza who falsely accused yet another of their members of molesting him to the police and even the next day, did not retract that false accusation. This is a man who has a track record of making false accusations against people.

Fischer and Kaypea's defence and the manner of it, of Frank Sforza, has been shameful.

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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Bettina, you've said it often: The truth is enough. I think that it has become your mantra.
The truth is enough. And it is. The problem is, not everyone is willing to tell it, at least not all of it.

There is no polite, politically correct way to say this, so I'm not going to beat around the bush.
Those of you who know the whole story, and choose to speak under condition of anonymity, wake up, will you?

This is not about protecting Knox. She is not the important one here. Bettina, and the others victimized by Frank are the important issue.

You don't need to publish your facts here. If you have information, you need to defend Bettina and the others in the arena where they are being attacked for confronting the truth.

You may want to ask yourselves, why Frank needs your silence. Why any of the Knox supporters do. Bettina has been saying it all along: The truth is enough.

So, wake up and go tell it. For 5 long years, all of you over at IA have been saying that you're defending an innocent woman. Well, some of you have information to defend another one. Time to put it out there.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:23 pm   Post subject: TO SUM UP ON SFARZO~GATE   

I can see the misdirection already taking place on the other side, so to cut through the crap, it's not about the police report, though that is of course part of the documents we provided as corroboration so people could decide for themselves. Bruce Fischer and Frank Sfarzo don't have to answer to us, but if people propose to collect 'donations' for their respective selves or write books and make movies about the case then the following questions from my article need to be answered, instead of misrepresenting what I wrote.

To date, no statement has been issued to answer the following questions:

1) To Joel Simon, CPJ, Nina Burleigh, Candace Dempsey, Steve Moore and lastly, Bruce Fischer, all of whom rely heavily on Frank Sfarzo to characterize PM Mignini as an out of control prosecutor who 'made up stories' to prosecute Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, to what extent does the new information cause you to question the credibility of your source?

2) When will you, Bruce Fischer or Frank Sfarzo, address the false accusation against a 71 yr old man who paid for his air fare and a place to stay out of the goodness of his heart? He was moved by stories on I-A about 'Frank losing his apartment' and a whole section on Bruce's website devoted to trying to raise 10,000 euros for him.

3) How did Frank Sfarzo obtain the crime scene videos and other evidence? On what basis is he claiming copyright violations against anyone that posts them on YouTube?

4) What are your financial arrangements with Frank Sfarzo? Are you paying him copyright fees and royalties, or are you collecting donations on his behalf?

5) Did Frank Sfarzo stay with Amanda Knox's family but was asked to leave when he started to make advances on her?

6) Will you ever apologize to Bettina?

Please answer fully, and stop avoiding the questions raised in the article.
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