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XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31, 12 - MARCH 29, 13 (S)

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Offline malvern


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

zorba wrote:
Sollecito calls the police.
You do not need to understand Italian to grasp the tone he is telling these things to the police.


http://www.youreporter.it/video_Sollecito_chiama_il_112_telefonata_sottotitolata


Yes Zorba Sollecitto gives a lot away is the first call. First he mentions the mess in Filomena's room, guess the theory that she was normally a slob contradicts this observation. He quickly follows with C'e una porta chuisa. There is a closed door. That second part of the sentence with the door he speaks quickly and lowers his voice. The way he delivers that sentence stands out. Then we have the cops asking him directions. Amanda was following the conversation in Italian because she pipes in the background assisting Sollecito with the address. Then they ask him how he knows there is a break-in. To this he replies there are signs including stains in the bathroom. He adds there is nothing stolen but there is the problem with the closed door. The cop "there is a closed door what is the closed door?The cop shows irritation or concern here. " Now Sollecito says there is a pile of blood. Different from his earlier mention of stains, now its a pile! Was he now visualizing what was behind the door the cop was questioning him about? This is just half of the conversation the second part he again causes some irritation with the cop when he avoids naming Amanda.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

dgfred wrote:
Thanks for the phone post praise... I can't believe I didn't make the connection earlier.


Hi, dgfred. Those head-smackers as I call them are almost always simple. I've had a couple of them myself. I came to this story only a few years ago, after reading a few articles on Yahoo! I knew from some of the posts that there was an enormouss divide in the opinions of guilt and innocence. Ironically, I initially spent a good deal of time over at IIP, looking at the crime scene photos. I didn't read Ron Hendry's reconstruction first, as I wanted to see what I could see, without having a pre-conceived idea of what happened. Meredith's bed was a real eye-opener for me. Once I read the re-construction, I realized something was really off, because I didn't see what Hendry was saying AT ALL.

At first, I figured it was just me, that I had to be missing something. But that bed really told me something was wrong.
Who takes a duvet and top sheet off a bed, uses the top sheet first, then the duvet, and THEN puts purse with a sock on the strap, and books, BACK on a bed? In the heat of a surprise, unplanned attack? Maybe someone sets the purse down after rifling through it, but the BOOKS?
And then the bath mat boogie? Groupies would have use believe that Guede washed his pant leg after removing his shoe and blood washed down onto his foot to make the print. If Knox's bathmath boogie story was true, how could anyone say with any certainty that the bathmat was returned to the exact spot? And, if Guede did this, he then did what?
Return to the room of the murder, put his shoes on, step in blood to make the footprints leading straight out the door?
Where are the footprints facing the door so he could lock it? Even if some of them want to believe that Knox or Sollecito are innocent, their alternate stories make no sense. Not according to the evidence presented.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

malvern wrote:
zorba wrote:
Sollecito calls the police.
You do not need to understand Italian to grasp the tone he is telling these things to the police.


http://www.youreporter.it/video_Sollecito_chiama_il_112_telefonata_sottotitolata


Yes Zorba Sollecitto gives a lot away is the first call. First he mentions the mess in Filomena's room, guess the theory that she was normally a slob contradicts this observation. He quickly follows with C'e una porta chuisa. There is a closed door. That second part of the sentence with the door he speaks quickly and lowers his voice. The way he delivers that sentence stands out. Then we have the cops asking him directions. Amanda was following the conversation in Italian because she pipes in the background assisting Sollecito with the address. Then they ask him how he knows there is a break-in. To this he replies there are signs including stains in the bathroom. He adds there is nothing stolen but there is the problem with the closed door. The cop "there is a closed door what is the closed door?The cop shows irritation or concern here. " Now Sollecito says there is a pile of blood. Different from his earlier mention of stains, now its a pile! Was he now visualizing what was behind the door the cop was questioning him about? This is just half of the conversation the second part he again causes some irritation with the cop when he avoids naming Amanda.



Exactly, you listened very well; I noticed her whispering too, not just speaking in a normal voice as one would but whispering as she wanted to stay out of the picture, it ties in exactly to Sollecito almost skipping over her name and the policeman saying huh, repeat that.

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Offline malvern


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

She also understood Italian well enough to follow his conversation to pipe in on cue . I also find it interesting how Sollecito became annoyed with Katie Couric when she questioned him about the blood in the bathroom. In that interview he argued as if the footprint was barely noticable or only water. So where was this large amount of blood that he mentions in the call? He also claims in the call to the cops that they called the missing flatmate. Why not call again at the cottage especially when he claimed in his book he saw her brown purse on the bed. You are right about the staging on the bed who would put the books back. The knife mark next to the open purse left like a big arrow. I understand Guede left DNA on the handle of the purse but none inside. If he went through her purse after putting the knife down wouldn't there be blood inside. Would one of her phones been in her purse ?The person who took the phones had very clean hands .
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Here is the second call at 12.54, the one that Dempsey said (which we have her in her own writing saying) was the result of the call Sollecito had been waiting for, as if to imply that the return call had not been forthcoming so Sollecito had simply called back like a good citizen. Like Knox hanging about in Italy to help. Yeah sure.

This is untrue, entirely untrue, the telephone connection was broken by Sollecito and this resulted, audibly, in the policeman enquiring as one does, hello, hello, are you there.

You can hear the policeman pick up the second call, he listens for a second to Sollecito explaining that he had been speaking to someone a moment ago, but the policeman does not react, instead he immediately launches right back into where it was they'd just left off; there is no leading someone like this astray.

So, actually, slightly differently to what I had explained, the policeman doesn't even say yeah right, did you get cut off or anything like that,
all as he wants to know is the answer to the question he was in the process of asking, and, to estimate the urgency, as Napia makes clear is the usual way to go that's why he spurts back into the line of questioning as though there'd been no interruption at all... and he had not forgot what line of questioning he had been following before the interruption either.

Sollecito, as he was trying to not give an impression of being involved through any tone or dialogue he might release by mistake giving the game away, went the other way completely, and does not sound concerned in any way, shape or form, even though he is telling some f-witted story about the closed door being a problem, no, it was not at all a problem, it was a locked door and who were they to know where Meredith should be or where she was, were they stalking her, were they her parents?
Come off it, he is a fake.
The door was not a problem, it was only a problem for Sollecito because he was fully aware of what lay behind it, and it was a problem for HIM and nobody else in the entire world except for his accomplices.

Perhaps Knox thought the place might be cleaned up within the hour and she could GET ON WITH HER LIFE.


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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

So for reasons of tidiness the bit about the call being broken up has been edited out on websites so that it sounds like it is one continuous call, but they did not edit it out because they realised it was suspicious, I think just for cohesion but that bit is very important because it is strange that Sollecito hung up. Maybe he wasn't comfortable with the questions and hoped they'd be directed elsewhere.

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Offline malvern


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Again he speeds up and lowers his voice to explain how they tried to call and she didn't answer.Who wouldn't try again . I also like the part when the police say the will dispatch someone. He answers in a weak, soft childlike voice. 'okay". Knowing full well it was time to face what was to come.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

malvern wrote:
Again he speeds up and lowers his voice to explain how they tried to call and she didn't answer.Who wouldn't try again . I also like the part when the police say the will dispatch someone. He answers in a weak, soft childlike voice. 'okay". Knowing full well it was time to face what was to come.



Hey Malvern,
you are hitting the nail right on the head, that is exactly what I noticed, his voice there is just so wrong, if you had nothing to hide and thought it was only a break-in you'd be saying, in an excitable voice (thinking then of the inconvencience and not knowing what the hell had happened): how long will you take, not some feeble okay. The okay is just all wrong here.

One minute it's all relaxed, then there's a problem because a door is locked, then there are signs of blood and then there are literally buckets of it so to speak, nevertheless, he is NOT concerned?
To me it's okay, okay thank you for not arresting me. Because I am certain this is what was really going on in his mind.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Indeed Malvern, okay as in, knowing what was to come, I missed that bit you are correct, definitely that it is, what I could not put my finger on what it was I was getting.

Well put.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Here are the two files, if you listen to the end of the 1st then to the beginning of the 2nd, you can understand what happened.
Attachment:
1-call-to-police-at-12-51-on-2-nov-2007_italian.mp3


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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ma non c'è cheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeer

Ma non c'è

Ma non c'è

Ma non c'è

But she is not there (he does not refer to anyone, just but nobody is there)

Like the way he says c'è , it's like he's calling out to mama, as a 6-year old would: Ma mama non c'è.

He says it as though he is concerned about her not being there.

But to me this concern on this point, is more like he knows she really is not there, as she is dead and will never be here, there or anywhere, ever, anymore... and he knows it.

Why the fuck would he be worried that she's locked her door? He was not her chaperone the nitwit.

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Offline malvern


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

zorba wrote:
Indeed Malvern, okay as in, knowing what was to come, I missed that bit you are correct, definitely that it is, what I could not put my finger on what it was I was getting.

Well put.

Thanks for posting the links it helps to listen to it a few times. The first okay is weak in reponse to help is on the way. The officer then says "vabene?" Sollecito's second okay comes in even softer like a "kay". The reluctance and fear is there.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Malvern,
I'm really pleased you are picking up on these things, so it is not just me then, and you put it better than I able to.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

dgfred wrote:
Hey Napia. I have also heard alot of 911 tapes and occcaisionally the dispatchers ask stupid and non-related questions to what is happening. Makes me ill to hear them.
Most other times the dispatchers are very good at what they do.

RS's call is ok by the dispatcher... terrible by RS. What fool would say nothing stolen and the climbing thief wasn't bleeding in the bathroom? How would he know either?

Thanks for the phone post praise... I can't believe I didn't make the connection earlier.



Yeah and the policeman picked up on that immediately saying what did he break-in then go to the bathroom

but Sollecito's response was fast paced, saying: NO. Immediately.
Then: I dont know.

Surely it would make sense, that as the window was broken, as there had been a break-in that the bathroom and the blood would be as a result of the burglar having cut himself but Sollecito says no.

I bet this policeman immediately consulted colleagues saying, I just had a really strange call, about a burglary at Via Pergola but the guy that called sounded very odd to me.

Sollecito is in no way a convincing liar, like spreading stories about being slapped, like spreading that 5 years after the murder, now come on, he is only making things worse.

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Offline malvern


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

zorba wrote:
Malvern,
I'm really pleased you are picking up on these things, so it is not just me then, and you put it better than I able to.


Its not just you, its telling of how he wanted to cottage to be interpreted. I think he was caught of guard by the officer who fired off questions and didn't miss a beat despite Sollecito hanging up with the pressure. The officer's style and quick thinking reminded of the questioning of the captain of the Concordia. Sollecito probably imagined he would call and tell his story uninterrupted and was thrown off by the the rapid and pertinent questions. Like the one did the missing roommate have a cell phone to call, or was anything missing?
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Offline malvern


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

zorba wrote:
dgfred wrote:
Hey Napia. I have also heard alot of 911 tapes and occcaisionally the dispatchers ask stupid and non-related questions to what is happening. Makes me ill to hear them.
Most other times the dispatchers are very good at what they do.

RS's call is ok by the dispatcher... terrible by RS. What fool would say nothing stolen and the climbing thief wasn't bleeding in the bathroom? How would he know either?

Thanks for the phone post praise... I can't believe I didn't make the connection earlier.



Yeah and the policeman picked up on that immediately saying what did he break-in then go to the bathroom

but Sollecito's response was fast paced, saying: NO. Immediately.
Then: I dont know.

Surely it would make sense that as the window was broken as thete hads been a break-in that the bathroom and the blood would be because the burglar had cut himself but Sollecito says no.

I bet this policeman immediately consulted colleagues saying, I just had a really strange call, about a burglary at Via Pergola but the guy that called sounded very odd to me.

Sollecito is in no way a convincing liar, like spreading stories about being slapped, like spreading that 5 years after the murder, now come on he is only making things worse.


Very good and telling point.According to Sollecito he broke in didn't steal anything but didn't go to the bathroom next. His first answer and the truthful one was NO. Sollecito knew that another event took place before the bathroom, his ' I don't know after' is just a I'm an idiot how could I know when he used the bathroom and I better let them figure out it is related to the locked door.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

malvern wrote:
zorba wrote:
Malvern,
I'm really pleased you are picking up on these things, so it is not just me then, and you put it better than I able to.


Its not just you, its telling of how he wanted to cottage to be interpreted. I think he was caught of guard by the officer who fired off questions and didn't miss a beat despite Sollecito hanging up with the pressure. The officer's style and quick thinking reminded of the questioning of the captain of the Concordia. Sollecito probably imagined he would call and tell his story uninterrupted and was thrown off by the the rapid and pertinent questions. Like the one did the missing roommate have a cell phone to call, or was anything missing?


Man you are getting all of it, exactly, the policeman isn't pussyfooting about, I bet he immediately thought there's something not right here.

And I too think the questioning got too much for him for a minute, probrably consulted with his accomplice.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

malvern wrote:
zorba wrote:
dgfred wrote:
Hey Napia. I have also heard alot of 911 tapes and occcaisionally the dispatchers ask stupid and non-related questions to what is happening. Makes me ill to hear them.
Most other times the dispatchers are very good at what they do.

RS's call is ok by the dispatcher... terrible by RS. What fool would say nothing stolen and the climbing thief wasn't bleeding in the bathroom? How would he know either?

Thanks for the phone post praise... I can't believe I didn't make the connection earlier.



Yeah and the policeman picked up on that immediately saying what did he break-in then go to the bathroom

but Sollecito's response was fast paced, saying: NO. Immediately.
Then: I dont know.

Surely it would make sense, that as the window was broken, as there had been a break-in, that the bathroom and the blood would be as a result of the burglar having cut him/herself but Sollecito says no.

I bet this policeman immediately consulted colleagues saying, I just had a really strange call, about a burglary at Via Pergola but the guy that called sounded very odd to me.

Sollecito is in no way a convincing liar, like spreading stories about being slapped, like spreading that 5 years after the murder, now come on he is only making things worse.


Very good and telling point. According to Sollecito he broke in didn't steal anything but didn't go to the bathroom next. His first answer and the truthful one was NO. Sollecito knew that another event took place before the bathroom, his 'I don't know' after is just an I'm an idiot how could I know when he used the bathroom and I better let them figure out it is related to the locked door.



Yes his responses were too fast on some bits as this was a step they'd been dreading, and he did not know how to do it, not when it really got underway. He tried to keep Knox out of it.

As you point out, the reaction, what I get from it is that it's like he is ALREADY DEFENDING HIMSELF but hey, surely he had nothing to do with it or not, surely he was only calling up, as a helper, surely he would then not need to be on the defensive, or, had he every reason to be like a cat whose tail you trod on.

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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

This is a big part of both their problems, IMO. Guilty people often trip themselves up by trying to act innocent.
What he didn't realize was that an innocent person's answers would mainly have been "I don't know." Simply.
I don't know what happened. But there's abroken window and blood and we can't locate one of the girls. I don't know if anything's missing. I don't know when it happened or how. We're worried, because SOMETHING has happened.
He and she both said that Knox returned to his flat and told him what she found and they decided to come back and check it out. This was BEFORE he supposedly knew about the broken window. This should have cranked up his initial concern. Now there is more evidence of something troubling.
The fact that he didn't know what happened should have been evident in his voice. But I can't hear any of this.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Napia5 wrote:
This is a big part of both their problems, IMO. Guilty people often trip themselves up by trying to act innocent.
What he didn't realize was that an innocent person's answers would mainly have been "I don't know." Simply.
I don't know what happened. But there's a broken window and blood and we can't locate one of the girls. I don't know if anything's missing. I don't know when it happened or how. We're worried, because SOMETHING has happened.
He and she both said that Knox returned to his flat and told him what she found and they decided to come back and check it out. This was BEFORE he supposedly knew about the broken window. This should have cranked up his initial concern. Now there is more evidence of something troubling.
The fact that he didn't know what happened should have been evident in his voice. But I can't hear any of this.



and it isn't as though it is a pleasant thing listening to him, knowing that Meredith was lying in there dead, at that moment, it is so awful, sickening.

That Dutch man with the PhD who was hooked on watching porn where girls were being strangled and where the very thing he liked watching, where the victim had the top pulled up, he reenacted on his victim, a wonderful young woman, but, when he got sussed, he didn't take long before he admitted, only, he still tried to make out it was like her leading him on and he had accidentally murdered her, I don't know what's worse not knowing which one of these bastards actually squashed the life out of Meredith or the Dutch sex fiend who tried to blame it on his victim, she being discovered in and under the snow on Christmas day.

One thing is, though, that at least the girl found on Christmas day under the snow in Bristol, England, her parents didn't have to wait years in agony for a definitive outcpme, and on that count I do not agree with the Italian system, it needs changing, it's too nasty for the victims' families.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

When the policeman asks, and what things have been taken.,

Sollecito makes the gigantic mistake of declaring no, nothing, when his answer ought to have been: I do not know.

Exactly as Napia expressed.

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Offline ttrroonniicc


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Re: All discussion here in trying to figure out why RS was minimalising the situation. That has never appeared to make sense, as discovery of the crime was inevitable.

Two different types of police in Italy, the postal or administrative police, who deal mainly with civil matters and the Carabinieri (military) police, who deal mainly with criminal matters. Sollecito had not anticipated the arrival of the postal police, who were there to return Meredith Kerchers phones. Those phones had been found that morning, as they had been ringing in undergrowth, where they had been dumped. He was panicked by their arrival. He had been managing the situation until their arrival.

Sollecito was minimalising facts / delaying investigation, until his Carabinieri sister got control of the situation for him. Sollecito had spotted the postal police approaching the house and had then immediately phoned his sister to get him out of the fix. What was in THAT conversation. He wanted police familiar to his sister (or even his sister) to arrive and take control. Having a sister in the Carabinieri made him believe he could get away with it. I think, considering this extract from his book, that the postal police arriving unexpectedly caused the situation to get out of his familial control. He considered he could get away with anything in Perugia (who knows what, previously, his sister had sorted out for him?), as he had a sister in the Carabinieri. I think the employment of his sister was a factor that facilitated his act.

As things spiraled out of control over the next several days, a senior investigator with the carabinieri in Perugia took it upon himself to call my sister to apologize, colleague to colleague. “If we had arrived ten minutes earlier,” he told Vanessa, “the case would have been ours. And things would have gone very differently.”

Sollecito, Raffaele; Gumbel, Andrew (2012-09-18). Honor Bound (Kindle Locations 559-561). Simon & Schuster, Inc.. Kindle Edition.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Hi Troon only on the bit about if it has been 10 minutes later we would have handled it, is a complete lie by Sollecito if you ask me. Don't think that was ever said.
His sister did not work in Perugia.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

but in his mind he may have imagined his sister would be able to fix it

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

zorba wrote:
Hi Troon only on the bit about if it has been 10 minutes later we would have handled it, is a complete lie by Sollecito if you ask me. Don't think that was ever said.
His sister did not work in Perugia.

He's bragging about his connections. I am sure, because he had phoned his sister right away, that he was minimalising the situation to the postal police to enable his sister, or her colleagues, to control the situation for him. That conversation did I think, happen. He's talking about a specific person; he mentions that persons seniority. Also in relating it, he courts the sympathy of his Italian audience, that the situation wasn't controlled for him. "Had they got there 10 minutes earlier".

Maybe the influence of his sister wasn't so great; but I think it's the only thing put forward so far, to explain why he was minimalising the situation. As I said, that has to have been for some reason, as discovery was inevitable.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:50 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Here are the two files, Sollecito calls the police with Knox whispering in the background.,

If you listen to the end of the 1st then you hear the policeman saying pronto, pronto, which is like hello hello are you there, then listen to the beginning of the 2nd audio and you hear Sollecito calling again and the policemn carrying on immediately wherehe left off. Unlike what Dempsey said the line went dead om Aollecito's side and he was not told he'd be called back, that what Dempsery said was a mistake or a plain lie, you work it out which one it is.

Attachment:
1^ Call to police at 12.51 on 2 Nov 2007_Italian.wav
Attachment:
2nd call 12.54 del 2 nov 07.wav


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:29 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Yeah I do think he was minimising things, but, his sister worked in Rome if I'm not mistaken, he though may have been quite that dimwitted that he imagines somehow she could affect matters, after all, apparently she did try.

But imagine if every cop that had a family member someone got called up like that, across the country, Listen it's your cousin Ted, he didn't do it right but they say he robbed the store, tell them to leave him alone will ya.

I mean, this is basically the level this is all at. She did not get fired for nothing.
And I hardly see Carabinieri starting down such a road, helping out everyone's family members, in a small place, this may happen but she was stationed in Rome which has absolutely no jurisdiction or power over Perugia, not in that way, because the Caribinieri in Perugia would have to deal with it, to get called up by the chief who says, simply, let him go he didn't for it, would be ridiculous.

I think her thinking she could affect such changes was the reason, one of them they fired her PRONTO.

So you are right I think about the intentions but I do not believe Sollecito when he says the Carabinieri said if we had gotten there earlier it would have been different, or yes, maybe I do, if they had been there earlier he would have been in jail now where he belongs.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:25 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

ttrroonniicc wrote:
Re: All discussion here in trying to figure out why RS was minimalising the situation. That has never appeared to make sense, as discovery of the crime was inevitable.

Two different types of police in Italy, the postal or administrative police, who deal mainly with civil matters and the Carabinieri (military) police, who deal mainly with criminal matters. Sollecito had not anticipated the arrival of the postal police, who were there to return Meredith Kercher's phones. Those phones had been found that morning, as they had been ringing in undergrowth, where they had been dumped. He was panicked by their arrival. He had been managing the situation until their arrival.

Sollecito was minimalising facts / delaying investigation, until his Carabinieri sister got control of the situation for him. Sollecito had spotted the postal police approaching the house and had then immediately phoned his sister to get him out of the fix. What was in THAT conversation. He wanted police familiar to his sister (or even his sister) to arrive and take control. Having a sister in the Carabinieri made him believe he could get away with it. I think, considering this extract from his book, that the postal police arriving unexpectedly caused the situation to get out of his familial control. He considered he could get away with anything in Perugia (who knows what, previously, his sister had sorted out for him?), as he had a sister in the Carabinieri. I think the employment of his sister was a factor that facilitated his act.

As things spiraled out of control over the next several days, a senior investigator with the carabinieri in Perugia took it upon himself to call my sister to apologize, colleague to colleague. “If we had arrived ten minutes earlier,” he told Vanessa, “the case would have been ours. And things would have gone very differently.”

Sollecito, Raffaele; Gumbel, Andrew (2012-09-18). Honor Bound (Kindle Locations 559-561). Simon & Schuster, Inc.. Kindle Edition.




Hi Troon, the idea many or most have as a result of the inability to translate what the Italian means, into English, results in people imagining, when they see the Italian word Postale, that this is some kind of police force that looks like a group of postmen delivering mail, but that idea could not be further from the truth.
The postale part can be excluded from the translation because Communications covers all of what it is and means and does.

The dividing line between the two types of police force is that one is called the State Police and the other the Carabinieri.

You could not really call police that have not undergone military training civil police, because any person in service, as is well-known, when out of uniform is referred to as someone "in civvies" meaning in own clothes.

But, the way to describe the State Police would be to say they are non-military, the Carabinieri military police.

Moreover, the State police has an umbrella function, under which the Polizia Postale e delle comunicazioni falls.
A translation of this would be Communication Police, in no way marking them out as inferior, on the contrary, the communications police is cutting edge in being the force tasked with going after Internet crime and criminals, not just dropping off someone's phone that got found. They are the ones who track and trace internet criminals, such as paedophiles, and far more.

You described it as the Carabinieri who deal mainly with criminal matters, but so do the Communications Police who are part of the State Police, which has a long list of different types of police under their wing.

So the two types of police are Military (Carabinieri) and Non-Military (State police).

One of the forces that comes under the State Police is the Communications Police, which does not just deal with civil matters. They go after people who are ''people trafficking'', etc, using the lines of communication to do that trafficking, and so just as any police force, they may need to go in with guns.

Basically, their main task is to combat high-tech crime, which may involve tracking mafia, rolling up huge gambling set-ups, scams and scammers, all of those specialised in policing fake fronts on bank machines on the street, many of which come from the Former East block, as in those areas though there was no freedom and no money, nearly everyone had education and for instance, in Russia there are so many professors and highly trained people who have never had a job.

In some cases this expertise, has been placed in crime.
Such highly trained people from the former east block countries are not the only ones designing precise copies of the bit on a bank machine that you feed your bank card into which then gets skimmed and scanned and you get robbed, but, there are gangs operating throughout Europe from for instance, Romania, I don't know what the situation is on that in America, the European Union means that there is now hardly any control of movement within the European Economic Community, which makes it far easier for criminal groups with highly educated people directing them, to operate.

It is something, this type of crime born out of poverty, where there is then an excess of highly trained people, more of them than let's say France, Germany, Italy, Britain, etc could or did produce, because the one thing the Iron Curtain countries did, was train people. However, anyone with the know-how, so this means very clever people who are experts in everything to do with science & technology, may start down the road of crime, tempted by the profits, however, as these types of people are able to get very well-paid jobs in many countries around the world and especially in Europe, America, Australia and Canada, they do not need to start being criminals, and there is far less temptation, so they do not take those risks, mostly do not. Thgose unable to get visa's for a Western country or highly paid jobs elsewhere around the globe, may feel tempted to use their know-how illegally.

Here follows the official list from the Police Website, showing which types of police fall under the State Police.


Police stations/types/departments under the State Police umbrella

The Mobile Police
Crime prevention departments
Aviation Police
NOCS (akin to a paratrooping specialised unit)
Traffic Police
Immigration Police and Border Control
Communications Police
Railway Police
Mountain Police
Marine Police
Forensic Police
Gaming and Gambling Police
Mounted Police
The Police Dog Training Centre
The Bomb Squad
Snipers
Inspectorate Vatican
School of Police
The Data Processing Center
The Health Service & Sanitation Police
Sections of Judicial Police in the prosecution of the Republic


___________________________
From the Italian State Police website

(Regional = Postale) Regional Communications Police (Polizia Postale e delle comunicazioni)


Technological developments in recent years has made ​​it necessary to use the Internet as a medium of exchange of information, access to large databases, execution of transactions and financial regulations, the conception and creation of new professional activities.

The rapid spread of the use of the Internet has quickly revealed the weaknesses of the network itself, especially with regard to security. And in this scenario that arises with law reform of the Administration of Public Security, the Communications Police, which "specialty" within the State Police is cutting-edge work to prevent and combat computer crime and security values regarding the protection of constitutional rights to secrecy of correspondence and freedom of all forms of communication.

The main effort in the Communications Police is in the direction of the constant changes in its reply to the new technological frontiers of crime.

The Communications Police is present throughout the national territory through the 20 regions (provinces), with a regional focus, and 80 sections with the provincial, centrally co-ordinated by the Police Service of Communications.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:37 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

The NOCS Police are:

The NOCS is a special group of the State Police trained to carry out high-risk operations, such as hostage rescue, raids in any environment for the capture of criminals and terrorists, protection of dignitaries, Italian institutions in specific danger situations, and the protection of foreign dignitaries visiting Italy.

The operators of the special department, therefore, operate solely as a unit of assault, at the end of the activity defined in jargon "info-operation" carried out by other departments of the police.

Equipped with special equipment, the NOCs is divided into a ready-to-respond team, in a position to intervene, with the support of ground vehicles, air and sea, all over the country within 24 hours.

The selection process:

The operators of the State Police who want to become part of the Department must meet / have stringent special, additional qualities, besides courage, readiness, cool and outstanding athletic training. These are essential qualities.

They must be ready to promptly address (rapid response unit) any emergency situation, "the NOCs" must first demonstrate the ability to meet the outstanding requirements from the physical point of view.

Before becoming "combat ready", in fact, candidates must pass several tests.

Some examples?

5000 meters in 20 minutes,
100 meters in 14 seconds,
100 meters swimming,
high jump of at least 135 cm,
long jump of at least 4 feet,
rope climbing with bare arms,
naturally a gun shooting test at 15 and 25 meters.


Only in this way can these people withstand the harsh daily training, challenging and diverse, allowing them to constantly improve upon the techniques of intervention.

NOC operators use flexibility as their first weapon in the fight to overcome the extremes.

Skilled sharpshooters, familiar with all kinds of weapons and explosives, they are able to climb rocks using ropes (abseil) and are ready to launch into flight with a parachute.
In addition to being experienced divers, they are also trained drivers, driving various types of vehicles.

Raids in the night

The night is the best friend of the NOC cops.

True to their motto "Silent as the night," the "commandos" approach the target , responding to the assault signal: "go, go go."

The task forces, after a long and patient planning of the mission, are able to get into action by means of a rapid descent or/and by means of an emergency assault, or through a silent approach.

Very little in this type of operation can be left to chance.
There are obviously standard operating procedures for the procedures for activities, but these are generally performed in an emergency when you do not have the time to organize an overall plan of action.

It means, you can process all the details of the intervention once only for the specific incidence / case / call out, related directly to the fight against terrorism and organized crime, the method of operation of each mission cannot be repeated a second time [It's a one strike affair, such as when criminals given any amount of time will inform the crime chain of impending busts, and so any further action will FAIL].

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

I'm glad you posted this information, Zorba. I was one of those people who saw 'postale' and immediately thought of police driving around in little jitneys, similar to mailmen(or women). It has the overall effect of diminishing somehow, their authority and knowledge of dealing with crime. I don't mean this is any way to diminish or fail to acknowledge the intelligence of any person who works for the postal service. It's not that at all. It's my own pre-conceived notion that mail deliverers are that, and not trained outside THAT scope.

When I read what I wrote, I can see how easy it is to become prejudiced in some ways, based on the interpretation of a word. Thanks for the education.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Napia5 wrote:
I'm glad you posted this information, Zorba. I was one of those people who saw 'postale' and immediately thought of police driving around in little jitneys, similar to mailmen(or women). It has the overall effect of diminishing somehow, their authority and knowledge of dealing with crime. I don't mean this is any way to diminish or fail to acknowledge the intelligence of any person who works for the postal service. It's not that at all. It's my own pre-conceived notion that mail deliverers are that, and not trained outside THAT scope.

When I read what I wrote, I can see how easy it is to become prejudiced in some ways, based on the interpretation of a word. Thanks for the education.



Hi glad to point it out Napia.

Even though we have had Italian speakers, not all are familiar enough with English or the knacks and skills of translation and what to pay attention to, this idea of some kind of Post Mistress showing up to take DNA samples, this idea that the Knox lot were the finest purveyors of, much like a tobacco firm selling cancer; is a ridiculous idea.

Like, yeah, Giorgo, who I know from when I buy stamps at the Post Office, popped down to the murder scene, and, it's all their fault, the postmaster beat Knox on the head, said she wouldn't get any supper and would stay in prison for 999 years, licking stamps.
la la la la.

Then look at the reality, and the State Police and its multi-faceted, highly organised forces, tackling every area of life that needs controlling and policing, just as anywhere in a developed country does.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Sollecito: Hello, thanks for coming, that was fast I only called 32 seconds ago, anyway, as I was saying yes the window, the blood, the locked door, the yes we are panic, the no we are not panic, the yes she lock always the door, no she never lokka da door.

Communications Police: C'é??? We have brought the phones we found (whereupon a certain Seattle woman shat her pants)

Sollecito and love of his life who he had known but a mere week: Phone??? C'é????

Communications police: Phone, that's why we came down from the post office

Sollecito: Post office? Aaaaaaaaaaaah, I see, you are the pretend police, I need to post a letter too, could I just give it to you?

Communications police: Sure I just have to finish my morning round then go investigate the mafia in a casino swindle where 15 men got murdered but sure, and, what were you saying about blood and locked doors???

Sollecito: Oh nothing, just that...(right at that moment the Carabinieri show up responding to Sollecito's call) Hey, there's more of your post workers!!!

Communications police: No they are not postmen, they are milkmen on their morning rounds, they are probably delivering your milk, don't worry if you happened to kill anyone, and are talking nonsense, and think I did not hear when you started on about locked doors and blood but yeah, shucks, who am I to speak, I'm just the postman.

Carabinieri: Hey ya all, hey Postman Pete, cosa fai qui, what are you up to?

Communications police: Well, hi country cousin Milkman Sam, I think he wants two pints and an alibi a loaf of bread and half a dozen eggs.

Carabinieri: Sure, well, I guess you post guys won't need us, by the way, was anyone murdered here, just asking, as the guy sounded disturbed when he called.

[at this moment Sollecito and love of his life that he just met are walking circles round and around the house like two children on a merry-go-round

Knax: I'm dizzy from this walking

Sollecito: No, nothing to worry about that's the speed and coke mixture

Carabinieri: Hey you kids, do ya fancy getting off ya ride and answering a few of the postman's questions here, only if you feel like it, if you killed someone we won't tell.

Knax: No no, he will beat me and make me read letters

Carabinieri: No, of course not if you have nothing to hide like a murder and suchlike there's nothing to worry your plain Jane head about.

Knax: Plain Jane? I'm the queen bee and you better know it

[launches into a Beatles song]

Sollecito: By the way, if you all care to have a look around at what the burglar did we can all get on with OUR lives again, I already told your cousin the Milkman Carabinieri what happened, that should be enough, case closed, and I hope nothing tragic happened like Laura, Filomena or Meredith getting dead, if they are, I know nothing, not even that nothing was stolen. There are traces of blood, there are swimming pools of it, but, it's probably a mosquito that popped or pooped.

Communication police & Carabinieri: Well, that makes sense Inspector Sollecito

Sister Sollecito, shouting down from the balcony up at street level: Leave him alone he's only a child, a kid, a boy, an infant, he don't do nothing, pick on someone your owna size-a, I've called my cops and you'll be in trouble, let them goooo.

Communication's police: C'é???? We just came to drop the phones off and a few letters and stamps, stationery and that type of thing, sorry Miss, where'd you say you're from again?

Sister Sollecito: The Carabinieri... but you can call it The Bakery, my speciality... cupcakes and murder. Okay then, you can go now. Case dismissed.

Communications police: Thanks Miss.

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Offline ttrroonniicc


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:11 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

thanks zorba ..

totally caught out in wrongness re: role of postal police

Keeping track of JREF - they are obsessing about Curatolo - specifically his witness of the pair casing the house.
Somebody there did a vectorized map of Curatolos perpective of knox/sollecito view of the cottage from the basketball
courts - saying it's obscured by trees

It was winter. The google pictures are taken in summer.

So, they are specifically worried about Curatolos testimony of sollecito/knox observing/casing the house.
What they are picking apart is Curatolo testifying that yes he knew who they were, definitely and him saying they were observing the house for some time.

Curatolo LIVED on that basketball court - knox/sollecito/guede were around there all the time. Knox had gone there earlier that evening to meet up with guede I think - then she had transferred that story to be her boss, Patrick Lumumba (who she replaced as guede, and accused).

was only referring to this because they appear to be asking me what I think about it. I haven't even discussed that with them. They are very worried about it. Posted a reply to something of "anglolawyer" to pull him up about something ridiculous he had posted, and he didn't even reply.

It's handy to track what they discuss; those are the weak areas of their case. It was interesting that both Francesco Sollecito (raffies father) and Steve Moore came out emphatically in rejection of the further (radio phone telephone interview) of Kokomani. That interview was early last year. Yet to source. Plenty of information about Kokomani that should meet public domain (that telephone interview, in which he related a lot of new stuff (he was there to deliver drugs; he actually drove up the driveway and parked (his was the 'black car' observed)). Also, Kokomani was on an Italian TV show, that, of which, only a brief transcript exists. I say this because in JREF they acknowledge and agree that Kokomani was in the area (because they cannot refute the evidence from mobile phone masts that had him pinged, as he said, where he was, in the area, that night). But of course they don't agree with the rest of the business. Kokomani, the "superwitness" as he was termed by Italian press, has a long involved, unique account of the "nuts", drugged up Sollecito and Knox, threatening him with knives. The witness of the "black car" parked up in the driveway, by the driver of the breakdown truck, as I just said, turned out to be Kokomanis car. Kokomani saw that breakdown truck. He related that information to the police before it was public knowledge. Kokomani is still around, he has trickled out information. He doesn't appear to be concerned about it. Part of his account is that he took mobile phone pictures of the "two crazies". Raffaele Sollecito saw Kokomani taking those photos, that is why he was running after Kokomanis car, all the way to traffic lights. Sollecito was concerned about those photographs. Kokomani said he deleted them off his phone ... Kokomani, some months after, received threats, and then an attempt at a huge bribe (very possibly from Francesco Sollecito). Kokomani was so afraid at one point, he fled home to his native Albania. But he returned and sought out a lawyer.

In emphatically denying Kokomani late last year (after his further radio, phone telephone interview); Francesco Sollecito and Steve Moore were trying to limit damage. But in their emphatic denial (not total dismissal), they confirmed how worried they are (Kokomani still being around and trickling out information). That was pretty soon after Knox and Sollecito got out. They didn't want it to spoil the party. Kokomani knew Guede well. He had worked with Guede in Perugia before. He encountered Guede that night and talked to him. When asked about the noise (banging (signalling)) from the house, Guede had said "it's a party" "the knife?" "to cut the cake" (sarcastically). Guede/Knox/Sollecito were "drugged up" according to Kokomani. Kokomanis was a lengthy account of Knox and Sollecito running around crazily with their knives. Kokomani not only related banging (signalling, yelling) from the house, he also described very specifically the movements of Knox and Sollecito. In his account, where did Knox go after her first encounter with him; that encounter in which she had been brandishing the 32cm kitchen knife he saw again in court. The knife confirmed as being the primary murder weapon. In Kokomanis account, initially he encountered Knox and Sollecito. Then he drove a short distance away, encountered Guede and talked to him. Then he accelerated away, as Sollecito was running towards his car brandishing his knife. The conversation Kokomani had with Guede took some time. Kokomani has further recollection of Sollecito running after his car all the way to the traffic lights, purposively, meanly, brandishing his knife. Kokomani had heard and was concerned about the loud banging and yelling, screaming (signalling) from the house. Meredith Kercher was still alive then. Guede was trying to get the use of Kokomanis car (offering him money which was exactly the amount stolen from Meredith Kercher). Guede was then still associated with Knox and Sollecito. Guede was around for the drugs. Where did Knox go. I repeat my theory again here that Knox had gone back to the house alone while Guede and Sollecito were still with Kokomani. My theory is that, as the terminal wound to the throat of Meredith Kercher was by that 32 cm kitchen knife, Knox had gone back up to the house to silence Meredith Kercher. She killed Meredith Kercher independently. Meredith Kercher was initially suppressed with the knives, wounded. She was locked in the bedroom because Knox/Sollecito/Guede were alerted to the approach of Kokomani (delivering more drugs). I'll leave it at that. Had to restate my theory. Where did Knox go to in Kokomanis account? Nothing but a theory.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:28 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Hi Troon (and all)

Yeah, he may have been bringing powders,
and so somehow may have been involved in the crimes,
even if it was the fact that he supplied the crap that sent these shites insane and was worried about them revealing this, so told a big story about them terrorising him.

Maybe the police worked that out later on but in no way could prove anything, so went after him and busted him for other things.

Whatever he is, he doesn't sound quite okay, I've known coke heads and coke sellers, from the low-life level = very aggressive and holding a mad party house where people were showing up day and night, to a well-to-do silversmith holding a full time job down, whilst renovating their expensive home and supplying a lot of cocaine, to people you'd never think would be involved in that, and this means like to people with money, and where the money was not there through new achievement but where these people had been brought up in wealthy homes, those of this type who did use the stuff, were just as dependent on it as the low-educated night and day party house types.
Either way, none were really okay as the coke is what they loved and the coke was what ruled their lives.
The difference is with the well-educated, full-time employment coke dealing guy, and the madhouse coke dealing guy, was that the well-off guy had people who did have the money and so everything proceeded as though they were all perfectly normal, very cool operators, the madhouse dealer, well the one I came to know of, was aggressive and nuts himself and every type of lost soul and troublesome character showed up there. He encouraged it through his own behaviour.

It's awful to sit in a room as someone who does not like the powders, you as someone who might smoke weed, but then coke users often do not like weed and hash as it ruins their other type of kick/buzz, so as a non-coke user, if you sit there and you also not only do not use it, but do not like the whole idea of it, being fully aware of where it always leads to, and this is true of the well-off too in the end, since addiction is addiction, then to watch how those who are really into coke, observe and be aware of every movement concerning the coke, if there is a single line left on the table their eyes will be on it, if lines are being chopped and laid out all become like rats or lions (mentally & physically) in to get their bit, if any is left on the table they will have no mind for anything else other than the fact there's a line on the table and it has not been used, all want it, no matter how much they've all had, or they want it off the table, and then that's that, at least they do not need to look at it all the time.
It's absolutely horrible.
My cousin died aged 27 from heroin, and his friends are the ones who finished him off in hospital, by sneaking more heroin in to him.
I was warned, in a way his - his behaviour / addiction - death saved my life, because I was shocked early on (15 years old) by his behaviour, seeing it up close for 2 weeks, and then I got away from him, I was scared of him, his death, I was not surprised by that, even though it came in a different way to how I imagined it might (overdose).

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Momma: Why in hell did you put me in that position in court, you made me look like I don't remember nuffin either, you know we talked about the call dozens of times, have you any idea how I felt?

Daughter: Whatevva, what was I supposed to do, tell the truth?

Momma: Well, we have decided we can't have you living here and it'll be better for you to find an own place, our lives have been turned upside down

Daughter: Well, that's your own fault, don't blame me

Momma: Don't blame me, I do blame you, look, I've had enough, don't kill anyone else because I'm not helping any more, have you any idea what it's like knowing your daughter is a murderer? I can never look at you with the same eyes again.

Daughter: Shit happens!!!

Disclaimer: Any similarity to persons living or dead is purely coincidental.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Listen, if you have debts, not a lot of options, and cannot get a good paying job, you could put a site up saying you are fighting, let's say, people put in jail who are innocent, then, ignoring any real facts, just keep siding with everything your audience wants to hear, and all of that with a DONATE button right at the top.

That'd be a great and dignified way to earn a living wouldn't it, wouldn't it?

It wouldn't?

Why not then, as that cat that supports Frank the muliple assault artist is doing exactly that.

Is he in it for the money?

_________________
Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
Ignorance of the law is no excuse


Last edited by zorba on Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

zorba wrote:
Listen, if you have debts, not a lot of options, and cannot get a good paying job, you could put a site up saaying you are fighting, let's say, people put in jail who are innocent, then, ignoring any real facts, just keep siding with everything your audience wants to hear, and all of that with a DONATE button right at the top.

That's be a great and dignified way to earn a living wouldn't it. wouldn't it?

It wouldn't?

Why not then, as that cat that supports Frank the muliple assault artist is doing exactly that.

Is he in it for the money?


Couldn't very well have started a fund to save the minks now, could he?
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:00 pm   Post subject: ON HOLIDAY   

Note
Just a Note.
~ Here I was on holiday with my children over the March school break (note to self: a holiday should be a holiday :) and I find out that Bruce Fischer of Injustice-Anywhere is encouraging his group members to harass, er, 'investigate' me personally, not for anything relating to the case, of course, but my personal spiritual views and professional practice. He must be very desperate.

Seeing as how he has been clearly identified as an agent of Amanda Knox and her family, he might want to ask himself if this was a wise thing to do. He might also consider whether this sort of ongoing activity, where his group has posted numerous pictures of people on his er, enemies list, is truly deserving of charitable donations status?

Note to Bruce: Please tell your members where I have investigated you outside of your actions concerning the case? One of of the many lies you tell them on an ongoing basis to justify your actions; I'm sure many of your fans have forgotten your threats to out Bettina when she accused Frank Sfarzo. I wonder what it will take to wake them up?

I'll be back in a couple of weeks but will check in once in a while. My thoughts at this time go out to the Kerchers, with much hope that come March 25, the spirit of Meredith Kercher will finally receive justice.
~
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Offline dgfred


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:19 pm

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:29 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Happy break E. Glad to see you are well.

Maybe a new thread sometime soon? This one is kind of longish.
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Offline ttrroonniicc


Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:12 pm

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Italy is very much in the news. A new pope and an old pope. Beppe Grillo saying Italy is out of the Euro ("Germany is ready to drop it like a hot potato"), and his 5 star party isn't making any deals.

Here's some Italian music (Franco Battiato)

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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:30 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

If I had enough interest, I'd start a pool to pick the day that Bruised shuts down the private 'Today at...." sites and makes them disappear, the way of Sfarzogate. He's letting the Nasties have their private chew and spew to keep the numbers rising for now, but my guess is that he will not want the vile bile visible around book review time.

He'll want to clean up nice and purty 'n all for all of the expected new donators visitors he hopes to draw. Can't have anybody see their true colors.
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Offline daisysteiner


Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:59 pm

Posts: 490

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:46 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

zorba wrote:
Listen, if you have debts, not a lot of options, and cannot get a good paying job, you could put a site up saying you are fighting, let's say, people put in jail who are innocent, then, ignoring any real facts, just keep siding with everything your audience wants to hear, and all of that with a DONATE button right at the top.

That'd be a great and dignified way to earn a living wouldn't it, wouldn't it?

It wouldn't?

Why not then, as that cat that supports Frank the muliple assault artist is doing exactly that.

Is he in it for the money?


I read that and my first thought was the L. Ron Hubbard quote about how, if you want to make real money, you should start a religion.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

ttrroonniicc wrote:
Italy is very much in the news. A new pope and an old pope. Beppe Grillo saying Italy is out of the Euro ("Germany is ready to drop it like a hot potato"), and his 5 star party isn't making any deals.

Here's some Italian music (Franco Battiato)



Nice music Troon, I'd equate it with what they (who the hell is they) call naive art, this though naive music, totally in the pleasant sense, like not with all kinds of associations and big deal trips going on, just light and airy, not that I'd be seen dead trying to dance to such stuff in my newly trimmed mullet, wide shouldered rolled up sleeves shiny jacket, and in Italy, including some of the guys visiting being dressed in this day and age in their beards, out from the countryside for a joke and laugh, it's just that in Italy, being natural (why were men born with beards to grow and be grown?) is normal, unlike the Hollywood trend where normal is to prance around with your new face about with money looking like you picked up a disease off of someone, it's just those guys living in the countryside, maybe in the mountains, maybe with lush endless acres of greenery, chopping wood, building, working the land, don't get their legs waxed and do all of those things as a renunciation of their masculinity, just because the media introduced the idea of someone likes it that way, so you'd better all get in line, no hair, it's disgusting, why ever did God make the stuff.

Anyway, in response to you and Napia and everyone paying attention here then, it's time to be serious, and peaking personally, I always am, contrary to popular and those most unpopular to my mind and their beliefs.

Current state of affairs: Who is afraid of Virginia Woolf and who is afraid of the law?

Presently the Supreme court in Italy, governing the Meredith Kercher murder case, is gearing up to take things into the 3rd and final stage.
The two persons directly related to this as accused, tried, found guilty and released through the 2nd degree appeal phase, have different positions.

Amanda Knox has one where she will not feel as scared as Raffaele Sollecito, at least, I would imagine so, as she is no longer residing in Italy, and is an American.

Raffaele Sollecito is in a different position unless he flees his own country, with all of the consequences chasing after him, regardless of whether or not the 2nd appeal is dismissed and a new trial ordered or also if the 2nd appeal is simply dismissed and no new trial is ordered.

The risk that his departure and disappearance (before the court's sessions begin) might negatively affect the outcome of the Supreme Court judgment may be a risk he is or is not willing to take.

His grasp of reality could only ever tell him that should it go wrong he may be immediately thrown back into prison, so his sense of reasoning will then tell him that in order to stop that happening he will need to remove himself, and this then may be something he is willing to do rather then go back to prison, back to prison with no way out for the next 20-odd years, yes, and they would indeed be odd years in that peculiar sense, yes indeed for one who likes to see himself as some kind of a hero.

Now think of that assuming he did help murder Meredith, that is then one wicked, self-gratifying, egotistical, dysfunctional, perverted, disturbed man; for him to think that by doing what he has, he offered himself up for Knox, only he does not understand, if you were involved in a murder you are also guilty of murder, he somehow, I think, imagines that he actually did nothing (wrong), whilst he set up, I believe, the staging, and it was most probably his idea too, he, in his head, as the male protecting the female, only, those notions of hero and protecting the so-called weaker sex, simply do not apply when murder is what you wrote and did, for this is not a cowboy movie and no amount of dancing classes is about to change any of these facts.

He reminds me of the song, hi there girls I'm Bobby Brown they say I'm the cutest guy in town got a cheerleader here to help with my papers, let her do all the work and then maybe later I'll rape her

This is the feeling I got watching 3 seconds and 2 nanoseconds of him dancing, in terms of evil he reminded me of Dustin Hoffmann and the Weisse Engel, it's Szell, it's Szell, yeah, acting normally and hiding the fact that he was a most wicked murderer with absolutely no conscience whatsoever.

So, will Sollecito do a Frank S and disappear?

Will the Knox family buy buckets of popcorn and settle in for a communal viewing of events, or would anyone in that family at all be slightly fearsome of what may happen?


The ability to approach members of the judiciary as I fear took place with Hellmann will not be an option with regard to the Supreme Court, seeing as this is a body constituting, representing and involving hundreds of senior judges, it is their name on the line too, it is their profession being damaged by such incompetence such as that shown by Hellman.

Will a group limited by location and of dubious character-- those ranging from persons having been placed on non-active and asked to resign (take pension early) like an opportunistic, dimwitted so-called hot shot helicopter pilot desperately trying to find new sources of income with which to fund his children and no doubt mentally challenged wife and trying to prove to himself that he is someone, when he isn't in fact worth much at all, no, not if his mentality and intellectual calibre or lack thereof is anything to go by, then a succession of people wanting to jump on the bandwagon hoping that the gravy train will derail and spill ill out and leave them rich, donate buttons abounding left right and above, top of page-- be able to beat down hundreds of Supreme Court judge's?
Well, to find out, make a donation by clicking HERE on my PayPally button to find out.

Fooled ya, the link doesn't work because I would rather die than to take to online begging

Why ever in the world would a person who sets up a site, which most kids can do these days, need donations?

Does it cost so much money to get out of bed, go for a pee, then turn your computer on, before you head down town to attend your back to work appointment and draw your social security?

Or,

maybe it's just that having a little old mundane job in a shop and having to pay back debts forced you into thinking up such a scam: Hey, let me jump on something so I can pick around like a chicken and find a few grains extra in the dirt, is it?

One thing I know is when I go to get a haircut I'm going to be looking at that barber with different eyes, I mean maybe the guy is a rocket scientist in real life, maybe he is working there because he prefers it, I expect so, most composers, engineers, realise that all of those studies were a waste and that a 3 month training course on hair cuttery gets you just as far.

Haircutter: Hi Fred, how you doing, sit down, wait a minute I just have to sweep the floor, my assistant the quantum physicist Muriel Jones will assist you with a cup of coffee.

Fred: Thank you, I so much prefer it here, I like the intelligent haircut, the intellectual short, back n sides, as long as you don't cut my throat I'm cool, namely, I heard some of your intellectually superior colleagues support murderers and cutthroats.

Haircutter: Oh no, no, of course not, but don't move or talk about muh mama

Fred: Hell no, I stopped doing that years ago when I got married, bought a car and stopped using the village bike.

_________________
Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
Ignorance of the law is no excuse


Last edited by zorba on Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

daisysteiner wrote:
zorba wrote:
Listen, if you have debts, not a lot of options, and cannot get a good paying job, you could put a site up saying you are fighting, let's say, people put in jail who are innocent, then, ignoring any real facts, just keep siding with everything your audience wants to hear, and all of that with a DONATE button right at the top.

That'd be a great and dignified way to earn a living wouldn't it, wouldn't it?

It wouldn't?

Why not then, as that cat that supports Frank the multiple assault artist is doing exactly that.

Is he in it for the money?


I read that and my first thought was the L. Ron Hubbard quote about how, if you want to make real money, you should start a religion.



Hi Daisy, indeed, look at the dough that organisation has hauled in, I have found through life that those brought up religiously, and having suffered from it, or maybe not even that much but disagreeing with it later on, and abandoning it, easily took up a substitute, so the something that has been part of their lives needed replacing even if it was quite worthless, yes, otherwise why abandon it, I have then seen people take up either different religion of fervently support a cause, have a hobby that goes into extremes of following such a thing.

But some not doing the hobby thing, needed a replacement was, of adhering to something to provide them with comfort, a release from the fear of universal solitude, wanting to belong, and I again fear this very element, a natural one, of wanting to feel as if you belong and are not alone, has paved the way to many successful money empires profiting on this. The fur chap does have the beady little eyes of a shit-house rat too, excuse my French.
Look at Bhagwan before and all of the extreme followers, in their pedantic we are rightness.


PS: Everyone, feel free to correct my typos for me when quoting, as I write using my feet while playing the piano.

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Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Napia5 wrote:
If I had enough interest, I'd start a pool to pick the day that Bruised shuts down the private 'Today at...." sites and makes them disappear, the way of Sfarzogate. He's letting the Nasties have their private chew and spew to keep the numbers rising for now, but my guess is that he will not want the vile bile visible around book review time.

He'll want to clean up nice and purty 'n all for all of the expected new donators visitors he hopes to draw. Can't have anybody see their true colors.



Lovely use of the strike through there Naps.
I think though maybe an assortment of old aged pensioners may be keeping the guy, admirable.

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Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
Ignorance of the law is no excuse
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

zorba wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
If I had enough interest, I'd start a pool to pick the day that Bruised shuts down the private 'Today at...." sites and makes them disappear, the way of Sfarzogate. He's letting the Nasties have their private chew and spew to keep the numbers rising for now, but my guess is that he will not want the vile bile visible around book review time.

He'll want to clean up nice and purty 'n all for all of the expected new donators visitors he hopes to draw. Can't have anybody see their true colors.



Lovely use of the strike through there Naps.
I think though maybe an assortment of old aged pensioners may be keeping the guy, admirable.


Hi, zorba. I don't know about the old aged pensioners, although you're probably right.

Have you ever been a victim of a con? I'm horrified to admit that I have.

Two days before Mother's Day, when my daughter was 8, I received a phone call from a very friendly man with a booming voice, introducing himself as one of the announcers on a local radio station. He asked me if I was familiar with the station (I knew of it but never listened), and he told me they were having contest in honor of Mother's Day. They were selecting a child under the age of 12 (did I have any? I said yes) to give a brief story on why their mother was the best. Would my child be interested? I asked and of course she was. I handed her the phone and she gave her name and age, her school, and, after a brief silence on her end, started to give the man information about her bathing habits! Bath, no shower, lots of bubbles. Horrified, I grabbed the phone, shouted into it, only to be met with silence.

I shake even now when I think of how easily I had been taken in. I reported it, but, obviously there was not much that could be done. We all think that we're smart enough to catch a con, but, under certain circumstances, none of us are immune. I never heard if it happened again, or if they caught anyone. Scary world we live in.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:52 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Napia5 wrote:
zorba wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
If I had enough interest, I'd start a pool to pick the day that Bruised shuts down the private 'Today at...." sites and makes them disappear, the way of Sfarzogate. He's letting the Nasties have their private chew and spew to keep the numbers rising for now, but my guess is that he will not want the vile bile visible around book review time.

He'll want to clean up nice and purty 'n all for all of the expected new donators visitors he hopes to draw. Can't have anybody see their true colors.


Lovely use of the strike through there Naps.
I think though maybe an assortment of old aged pensioners may be keeping the guy, admirable.


Hi, zorba. I don't know about the old aged pensioners, although you're probably right.

Have you ever been a victim of a con? I'm horrified to admit that I have.

Two days before Mother's Day, when my daughter was 8, I received a phone call from a very friendly man with a booming voice, introducing himself as one of the announcers on a local radio station. He asked me if I was familiar with the station (I knew of it but never listened), and he told me they were having contest in honor of Mother's Day. They were selecting a child under the age of 12 (did I have any? I said yes) to give a brief story on why their mother was the best. Would my child be interested? I asked and of course she was. I handed her the phone and she gave her name and age, her school, and, after a brief silence on her end, started to give the man information about her bathing habits! Bath, no shower, lots of bubbles. Horrified, I grabbed the phone, shouted into it, only to be met with silence.

I shake even now when I think of how easily I had been taken in. I reported it, but, obviously there was not much that could be done. We all think that we're smart enough to catch a con, but, under certain circumstances, none of us are immune. I never heard if it happened again, or if they caught anyone. Scary world we live in.



Hi Nap,

That sounds dreadful.

I'm trying to think, I've only ever been conned by people for money or had stuff stolen.
Know a bit about that though, this must happen in the States too, that people approach the elderly or disabled, and try to get in then one keeps the person occupied while the other steals from the home, or these types get people to sign their money away. A lot of this goes on with people offering services, especially in the building trade and also garages that you place your car with, to fix let's say a tyre and check stuff out, a so-called service (a routine check in order to maintain the condition of the vehicle) then they remove nice parts of your engine and put some old ones back, and as most people know little about cars, especially the ones who simply always let the garage do everything for them, they get away with it then use your nice newish parts on car repairs for someone else.

A good idea is to number and photograph your engine and its parts, so you can see if anything changed, even the best garages, or best, so called straight are definitely in the business of collecting money, and the basic thing to remember is, in some types of business, you cannot ever really trust them.

So if you do trust them and the owner is honest, still, if such honest people do not happen to be present one weekend, Joe the Mechanic may have need of extra money and work out ways to earn a bit, by fiddling, and I do not mean accompanied by an orchestra or a Nashville band, so they might make a deal with hyou like in a way as to make you think they'll do you a favour that they are not allowed to do but as they are so nice they'll help you out at a reduced price, only to charge you twice the amount it should be when done straight / normally.

These days though a lot of people are getting conned online and perverts are using the Internet to entice children into doing things and grown up women are also in danger if they meet people online, as some have wound up dead through that.

The insane fact is, the Internet as tool is something that allows people to get closer than they ever might in direct contact with someone, because in writing you get round to saying what it is you want and meant to say but in direct contact you are interrupted, you may be shy, you may be tired, you may forget what it is you meant to talk about, so people may, even with all of these things, still develop relationships yet never get round to getting really close by sharing things, so people meet up online, also positively, after having shared so much, and they do not feel shy to meet a person for the first time either as they feel they know them so well, and if the person online has been truthful or both have, then they DO know one another well.
This is the reason I think, that we have been seeing cases of girls of 15 going off to meet some man and fleeing the country, not because he forced her but because through that online chat, she has then fallen in love with a guy who she never would do, probably, when meeting such a person in the first place directly, because her own normal brakes would be on saying, he is far too old for me, I am not attracted to him, that would be nuts.

Yet the Internet can be a powerful tool, I mean this is not only about this type of abuse, even full grown adults have been talked out of their life savings, people who were not stupid, but the coin artists know which buttons to push and what things work. I've heard of some incredibly sad cases, some old guy for instance, getting some builder in to fit a conservatory / patio and then somehow the job takes forever never gets done and the guy needs more and more money, and as the old guy is stuck there and wants it done, goes off to the bank again and again. Worse though is the con artist who fits the conservatory properly, on time, and nicely, and talked the old guy into more building work or the old guy imagines he might like other things done, it's at this point with multiple jobs going on, that the con person talks the old guy, gradually and in many steps, out of his total life savings.

Now I hope that some guy called Frank from Perugia who apparently has a bad temper and takes to using his fists on men and women does not hear these things for he will most likely think I'm offering tips on how to rob folk, but for you decent people, be careful.

Others still, are cursed with having children, so in-house children thieves, working to get the dough off ma or pa, sometimes through murder, such is the awful pull that money has on people in our get get get society, buy buy buy media, our dispose of because you need new and better and more understanding of what quality means, supposedly, in our lives. Basically, I see the way business runs, as a force that is not clever, and I mean it is designed to push a certain mentality; how can we ever stop all that, considering one of the most awful human traits, was, is and will remain to be, the greed and sense of self-importance, which has always led to the warring mentality, small scale and world.

_________________
Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
Ignorance of the law is no excuse


Last edited by zorba on Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Sparkles


Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:54 pm

Posts: 28

PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:16 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Link to a media report about Jodi Arias in which there are parallels to Knox's behaviour whilst at the Police Station particularly "yoga" and other inappropriate actions. Knox is referenced about 5 minutes in.

Arias changed her story twice in these initial interviews from not being there and denying everything but when confronted with the evidence the police had - "that she was there but there were 2 people and her life was threatened and she was in fear and she did not hurt Travis".

She has since changed her story again to self defense - despite the what she did to the victim [stabbed, throat slit and shot]. She admitted to his murder on the stand because "he attacked her".

http://video.foxnews.com/v/2228988608001/
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Only trouble with Fox is that they are like a bunch of amateurs, that reporter or whatever you want to call him, entirely trying to impose his ideas and views onto people's minds, he begs a certain reaction and that is not quality news presentation but celebrity style news and it is full of speculation and sensationalism. My views on all of this were not shaped by this particular episode of uninformed, unprofessional news presentation, it became obvious a long time ago when all of those crap channels like ABC, CBS all copied one another word for word and it became apparent that none did any homework or checks or proper research, or any research come to think of it.

In light of the above, I can form no view through anything Fox provides, I would prefer to look elsewhere, and even then, it's tough, everyone is scared to lose their nicely paid job these days, and will say any old crap.

_________________
Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
Ignorance of the law is no excuse


Last edited by zorba on Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Sparkles


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Posts: 28

PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

I understand that Zorba. The full extract which was used by Fox is out there on the net but it was useful to see how this is being interpreted by the US media against how Merediths's case was and continues to be interpreted.

I have seen the full extract outside of the news report somewhere but could not find the link to post [I have to confess I am following this trial and is has become somewhat of a guilty pleasure] and Arias' behaviour as presented is bizarre to me. To view the police interview as presented in the courtroom is fascinating, she is certainly capable and is proven to lie during these interviews - see her attempts to try to explain the mixed blood evidence which to me is laughable.

This is a woman who is now claiming PTSD due to a murder of a crime she committed - which I am assuming is an defence tactic to explain away her "missing foggy memories". She does not look traumatised in the police interviews to me.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Sparkles wrote:
I understand that Zorba. The full extract which was used by Fox is out there on the net but it was useful to see how this is being interpreted by the US media against how Merediths's case was and continues to be interpreted.

I have seen the full extract outside of the news report somewhere but could not find the link to post [I have to confess I am following this trial and is has become somewhat of a guilty pleasure] and Arias' behaviour as presented is bizarre to me. To view the police interview as presented in the courtroom is fascinating, she is certainly capable and is proven to lie during these interviews - see her attempts to try to explain the mixed blood evidence which to me is laughable.

This is a woman who is now claiming PTSD due to a murder of a crime she committed - which I am assuming is an defence tactic to explain away her "missing foggy memories". She does not look traumatised in the police interviews to me.


Hi, Sparkles. Thanks for the link. I'm not following this case on television, I see occasional clips, but prefer to stay away from this. As with Oscar Pistorius, and, as I did with Casey Anthony and OJ Simpson. But I did watch the clip, only to become more convinced that Fox newscasters are not in any way neutral. They are in it for the ratings.
A diagnosis of PTSD does nothing, I think, but muddy the waters. Does this mean she didn't know right from wrong?

I just found it interesting that she and Knox have the same birthday, and, if this clip is to be believed, the same behavior in a police station. How odd is it that this exact behavior would hit the news at the exact time the SC hearing is bringing Meredith's murder back into the public eye? Karma?
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Offline tamale


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:13 pm

Posts: 615

PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:31 pm   Post subject: Re: ON HOLIDAY   

Ergon wrote:
Note
Just a Note.
~ Here I was on holiday with my children over the March school break (note to self: a holiday should be a holiday :) and I find out that Bruce Fischer of Injustice-Anywhere is encouraging his group members to harass, er, 'investigate' me personally, not for anything relating to the case, of course, but my personal spiritual views and professional practice. He must be very desperate.

Seeing as how he has been clearly identified as an agent of Amanda Knox and her family, he might want to ask himself if this was a wise thing to do. He might also consider whether this sort of ongoing activity, where his group has posted numerous pictures of people on his er, enemies list, is truly deserving of charitable donations status?

Note to Bruce: Please tell your members where I have investigated you outside of your actions concerning the case? One of of the many lies you tell them on an ongoing basis to justify your actions; I'm sure many of your fans have forgotten your threats to out Bettina when she accused Frank Sfarzo. I wonder what it will take to wake them up?

I'll be back in a couple of weeks but will check in once in a while. My thoughts at this time go out to the Kerchers, with much hope that come March 25, the spirit of Meredith Kercher will finally receive justice.
~


Frank is lashing out at me..haha. Smells like desperation. He could be doing something constructive...but, no...worthless he is.
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Offline malvern


Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:27 pm

Posts: 497

PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

I hope there are no new attacks . Is it true Bruce has some secret site for special people where Frank has been allowed to continue posting?
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Offline Napia5


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Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:23 pm

Posts: 1893

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:04 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Hi malvern, This was posted by Nell.



Nell wrote:
Since the Sfarzogate thread on Injustice Anywhere was deleted, Frank Sfarzo hasn't written any posts on Injustice Anywhere that are visible to the normal user. His post count was 73 when the Sfarzogate was deleted. I spotted him online a few times and wondered that he didn't further comment on any other thread concerning the case.

If you visit his profile right now, you will notice that his post count has increased from 73 to 132, but his profile doesn't give any information as to where he left his comments. That's because the comments he left were made on hidden forums that are not accessible to the normal user.


This was the last thing I've seen.

ETA: Nell posted this on February 19th.
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Offline malvern


Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:27 pm

Posts: 497

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:27 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Oh that makes sense , since hes in hiding and needs to be kept in check.
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Offline Napia5


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Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:23 pm

Posts: 1893

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:43 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

malvern wrote:
Oh that makes sense , since hes in hiding and needs to be kept in check.


AFAIK, there has been no concern expressed over at IA about his whereabouts. Nobody is accusing Mignini of holding him hostage in some dungeon, so I would assume that at least some of them know where he is. Quite odd that he would allow his site to be shut down and there are no complaints being filed.
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Offline zorba


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Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:11 am

Posts: 4233

Location: London

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:51 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Napia5 wrote:
malvern wrote:
Oh that makes sense , since hes in hiding and needs to be kept in check.


AFAIK, there has been no concern expressed over at IA about his whereabouts. Nobody is accusing Mignini of holding him hostage in some dungeon, so I would assume that at least some of them know where he is. Quite odd that he would allow his site to be shut down and there are no complaints being filed.



Some of them are then guilty of harbouring a fugitive, one who is on the run, not from just one country but two, this is a criminal offence.

_________________
Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
Ignorance of the law is no excuse
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Offline zorba


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Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:11 am

Posts: 4233

Location: London

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Isn't it insane how in a dream/nightmare you see a situation, a thing, that in the normal waking state you are unable to quite put your finger on, this then before the dream/nightmare, but then there asleep, without certain self-braking mechanisms of the mind, you see stuff, if only you could then remember it and put it into words what it is you SAW and WHY.

Last few nights, late at night, the BBC has had these weird violent American movies on, where some young not-gentleman, shoots any old one to smithereens, one I saw fleetingly out the hook of my eye while watching comedy on YouTuberculosis, and that was bad enough, but yesterday, there was another one that seemed almost identical to the one the night before what I'm saying is it is not a bright idea to watch that stuff no matter how shit you think it is, somehow it makes an impression on you then in your dream/nightmare, you are doing something awful, I kicked some guy out of somewhere and n ow I cannot remember what it was but Knox was there, just like in a picture, I'm not keen on this, and yes, well what can one expect after these years of following the Meredith Murder Case, importantly though, if I could just get this right, I saw her entirely how she is, with her acting, I knew who she was but she didn't know who I was/am, she didn't bat an eyelash as long as it wasn't her being sorted out.

The vibe from those films was all in there where even the one shooting everyone is doing it like he has a cause, a reason, a right.

I don't hope to dream this nightmare again, but if I do maybe I'll be able to say something about all the stuff I've been picking up on from these two persons convicted of murder but still roaming free and what it is that is so disturbing about their behaviour yet so hard to articulate properly.

_________________
Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
Ignorance of the law is no excuse


Last edited by zorba on Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:45 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Offline zorba


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Posts: 4233

Location: London

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Come On all of you posters, you are king/queen here and your interaction is greatly needed, please think up some stuff and do not be afraid to write because no single poster is any better than anyone else and each person posting thinks that their own stuff isn't what they meant to say or is not as good as that from others but this is just too polite; your stuff is needed & is valued and worthy, express yourself, because this is a fight for the better side of what we human beings are; please do contribute, it's a long hard road, we are better than these examples, those of murder and liars, we are not this, and those who are at least need to be brought to justice no matter what the punishment is; Meredith's family deserve the best and Meredith is unable to say what happened, keep fighting for what is right!!!

All lurkers, please drop in.
Meredith is dead, make this site represent life.

_________________
Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
Ignorance of the law is no excuse
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Offline Napia5


User avatar


Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:23 pm

Posts: 1893

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Hi, Zorba. I spent some time reading at other sites this weekend. This from Jools at .org.
http://www.liberoquotidiano.it/news/120 ... ronos.html
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

I also noticed that Guermantes has posted some thoughtful information in the Links section about the book, "Math on Trial."
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Offline Napia5


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Posts: 1893

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

I have also been following some links to book reviews. I'm beginning to see some sort of pattern developing, but I'm not quite finished yet. In a nutshell to this point:

I have discovered that there is quite a quantity of new accounts, or blogs, who are set up as book reviewers. Some of these accounts have opened in October or November. Like I said, they are new. When you read their home pages, some of them are quite clear that, if you read one of their reviews, and then buy that book using their link, they get a credit from Amazon, since these links go directly to the Amazon site.

In a hour of reading, I found 4 reviewers who are just NOW reading a certain "Monster' book, which we know was originally released in 2008. I don't yet have enough information on this to understand exactly what is happening, but I must say that I find this incredibly odd. Why would new reviewers be reading old books?
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Offline malvern


Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:27 pm

Posts: 497

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Napia5 wrote:
I also noticed that Guermantes has posted some thoughtful information in the Links section about the book, "Math on Trial."


The machine has posted a link to an interview with the authors of "Math on Trial" on .org. She discusses the DNA on the knife and explains what naturally occurring stutters look like compared to small sample peaks.Meredith's DNA stood out. It is enlightening particularly if you have tried to figure out what Chris H says about the sample. Chris deliberately tries to confuse to nullify results. The decent result of DNA would have been strengthened by another test if Hellman had allowed. The high accuracy rate would have been difficult to wave away. The interview is worth a listen and the book sounds very interesting.
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Offline daisysteiner


Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:59 pm

Posts: 490

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

zorba wrote:
Come On all of you posters, you are king/queen here and your interaction is greatly needed, please think up some stuff and do not be afraid to write because no single poster is any better than anyone else and each person posting thinks that their own stuff isn't what they meant to say or is not as good as that from others but this is just too polite; your stuff is needed & is valued and worthy, express yourself, because this is a fight for the better side of what we human beings are; please do contribute, it's a long hard road, we are better than these examples, those of murder and liars, we are not this, and those who are at least need to be brought to justice no matter what the punishment is; Meredith's family deserve the best and Meredith is unable to say what happened, keep fighting for what is right!!!

All lurkers, please drop in.
Meredith is dead, make this site represent life.


I'd love to post more but between work, home, uni (glutton for punishment, gone back for more education!), and the sinking grim feeling that the SC is going to take the easy way despite a fuck ton of evidence to the contrary, I'm struggling to think of stuff to post that will be constructive. Literally, if on the 25th we get the result that gives Meredith a hope of justice, I'll be back with bells on and fired up for the fight. Between now and then, I think concentrating on keeping my own counsel and sending good and positive vibes to the Kerchers is the best thing for me.

One thing I am interested in is what the Meredith fund are up to. I've donated and emailed them but no response. Anyone else heard anything? My friends who know the Kercher's haven't much to say either. Does anyone at .org or does Pete Quennell know?
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Offline zorba


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Posts: 4233

Location: London

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Napia5 wrote:
Hi, Zorba. I spent some time reading at other sites this weekend. This from Jools at .org.
http://www.liberoquotidiano.it/news/120 ... ronos.html



Hi Nap,

checked that out, seems pretty content-free, other than that Sollecito is confident or has been since he got let out of prison, and Sollecito's lawyer saying he/they do not expect Mignini to be allowed to take part but I read that there is a loophole that may allow him to participate, I hope so.

_________________
Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
Ignorance of the law is no excuse


Last edited by zorba on Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline zorba


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Posts: 4233

Location: London

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

daisysteiner wrote:
zorba wrote:
Come On all of you posters, you are king/queen here and your interaction is greatly needed, please think up some stuff and do not be afraid to write because no single poster is any better than anyone else and each person posting thinks that their own stuff isn't what they meant to say or is not as good as that from others but this is just too polite; your stuff is needed & is valued and worthy, express yourself, because this is a fight for the better side of what we human beings are; please do contribute, it's a long hard road, we are better than these examples, those of murder and liars, we are not this, and those who are at least need to be brought to justice no matter what the punishment is; Meredith's family deserve the best and Meredith is unable to say what happened, keep fighting for what is right!!!

All lurkers, please drop in.
Meredith is dead, make this site represent life.


I'd love to post more but between work, home, uni (glutton for punishment, gone back for more education!), and the sinking grim feeling that the SC is going to take the easy way despite a fuck ton of evidence to the contrary, I'm struggling to think of stuff to post that will be constructive. Literally, if on the 25th we get the result that gives Meredith a hope of justice, I'll be back with bells on and fired up for the fight. Between now and then, I think concentrating on keeping my own counsel and sending good and positive vibes to the Kerchers is the best thing for me.

One thing I am interested in is what the Meredith fund are up to. I've donated and emailed them but no response. Anyone else heard anything? My friends who know the Kercher's haven't much to say either. Does anyone at .org or does Pete Quennell know?



Hi Daisy,

I know, I also find it hard to know what to say and you being pessemistic or call it realistic, if you like for fear of it going the wrong way, is perhaps a sensible way to go because if this pair of swines get away with it, I think I will be traumatised by the very thought of it, so frustrating and wrong that would be.

About no response, I cannot blame them for not entering into discussions with people, I feel if they were to do that every kind of person might start talking to them and then screw around with them, like Fischer and his band of shiteheads would be bound to do judging by their lack of manners or dignity, let alone any sign of honesty up until now.

_________________
Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
Ignorance of the law is no excuse


Last edited by zorba on Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline tamale


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:13 pm

Posts: 615

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Napia5 wrote:
zorba wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
If I had enough interest, I'd start a pool to pick the day that Bruised shuts down the private 'Today at...." sites and makes them disappear, the way of Sfarzogate. He's letting the Nasties have their private chew and spew to keep the numbers rising for now, but my guess is that he will not want the vile bile visible around book review time.

He'll want to clean up nice and purty 'n all for all of the expected new donators visitors he hopes to draw. Can't have anybody see their true colors.



Lovely use of the strike through there Naps.
I think though maybe an assortment of old aged pensioners may be keeping the guy, admirable.


Hi, zorba. I don't know about the old aged pensioners, although you're probably right.

Have you ever been a victim of a con? I'm horrified to admit that I have.

Two days before Mother's Day, when my daughter was 8, I received a phone call from a very friendly man with a booming voice, introducing himself as one of the announcers on a local radio station. He asked me if I was familiar with the station (I knew of it but never listened), and he told me they were having contest in honor of Mother's Day. They were selecting a child under the age of 12 (did I have any? I said yes) to give a brief story on why their mother was the best. Would my child be interested? I asked and of course she was. I handed her the phone and she gave her name and age, her school, and, after a brief silence on her end, started to give the man information about her bathing habits! Bath, no shower, lots of bubbles. Horrified, I grabbed the phone, shouted into it, only to be met with silence.

I shake even now when I think of how easily I had been taken in. I reported it, but, obviously there was not much that could be done. We all think that we're smart enough to catch a con, but, under certain circumstances, none of us are immune. I never heard if it happened again, or if they caught anyone. Scary world we live in.


Wow, that is truly loathsome and no doubt caused you much anxiety. I can only say I am glad it was not worse and I am sorry you had to go thru that terror.
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Offline tamale


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:13 pm

Posts: 615

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

I take comfort knowing that the universe will exact the karmic price in regard to the guilty. There is no escaping that.
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Offline Ava


Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:08 pm

Posts: 943

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

At least she tries:

Hayden Panettiere Apologizes To Murder Victim’s Family

March 18, 2013 | 12:36pm EST

Actress Hayden Panettiere has apologized to the family of murder victim Meredith Kercher after portraying her accused killer Amanda Knox onscreen.
The Heroes star took the role of Knox in controversial 2011 TV movie Amanda Knox: Murder on Trial in Italy while the student was still in jail for the slaying.
Knox was set free later that year after a court in Italy overturned the verdict and quashed her murder conviction, and Panettiere has now spoken out to offer her sympathies to Kercher’s family for any heartache her movie caused.
Panettiere tells British magazine Stella, “I can completely understand the feelings of the Kercher family… I apologize deeply for any pain that was inflicted. But I didn’t do anything out of disrespect.”
British student Kercher was found stabbed to death at her rented home in Perugia, Italy in 2007. Her housemate Knox and Knox’s boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito were convicted of killing her during a kinky sex game but they were both freed on appeal in 2011.


http://www.wenn.com/all-news/hayden-pan ... W+(W.E.N.N)
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Offline Napia5


User avatar


Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:23 pm

Posts: 1893

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

tamale wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
zorba wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
If I had enough interest, I'd start a pool to pick the day that Bruised shuts down the private 'Today at...." sites and makes them disappear, the way of Sfarzogate. He's letting the Nasties have their private chew and spew to keep the numbers rising for now, but my guess is that he will not want the vile bile visible around book review time.

He'll want to clean up nice and purty 'n all for all of the expected new donators visitors he hopes to draw. Can't have anybody see their true colors.



Lovely use of the strike through there Naps.
I think though maybe an assortment of old aged pensioners may be keeping the guy, admirable.


Hi, zorba. I don't know about the old aged pensioners, although you're probably right.

Have you ever been a victim of a con? I'm horrified to admit that I have.

Two days before Mother's Day, when my daughter was 8, I received a phone call from a very friendly man with a booming voice, introducing himself as one of the announcers on a local radio station. He asked me if I was familiar with the station (I knew of it but never listened), and he told me they were having contest in honor of Mother's Day. They were selecting a child under the age of 12 (did I have any? I said yes) to give a brief story on why their mother was the best. Would my child be interested? I asked and of course she was. I handed her the phone and she gave her name and age, her school, and, after a brief silence on her end, started to give the man information about her bathing habits! Bath, no shower, lots of bubbles. Horrified, I grabbed the phone, shouted into it, only to be met with silence.

I shake even now when I think of how easily I had been taken in. I reported it, but, obviously there was not much that could be done. We all think that we're smart enough to catch a con, but, under certain circumstances, none of us are immune. I never heard if it happened again, or if they caught anyone. Scary world we live in.


Wow, that is truly loathsome and no doubt caused you much anxiety. I can only say I am glad it was not worse and I am sorry you had to go thru that terror.


Thanks, Tamale. It was indeed awful. I am skeptical as a rule, and would have thought myself immune to this type scam. No warning bells went off. I was caught completely unaware. It just goes to show that, no matter how cautious we are, no matter how much we think we may know, a con can happen to anyone. Under the right set of circumstances, we can all be victims. I still can't believe it happened.
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Offline Napia5


User avatar


Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:23 pm

Posts: 1893

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Here's an article where a man uses the explanation of a 'prank gone wrong'.

http://www.kxan.com/dpp/news/texas/texa ... nd-on-fire

ETA: Apparently the State of Texas disagreed.


Last edited by Napia5 on Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline dollycat


Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 6:59 pm

Posts: 38

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

zorba wrote:
Come On all of you posters, you are king/queen here and your interaction is greatly needed, please think up some stuff and do not be afraid to write because no single poster is any better than anyone else and each person posting thinks that their own stuff isn't what they meant to say or is not as good as that from others but this is just too polite; your stuff is needed & is valued and worthy, express yourself, because this is a fight for the better side of what we human beings are; please do contribute, it's a long hard road, we are better than these examples, those of murder and liars, we are not this, and those who are at least need to be brought to justice no matter what the punishment is; Meredith's family deserve the best and Meredith is unable to say what happened, keep fighting for what is right!!!

All lurkers, please drop in.
Meredith is dead, make this site represent life.


Hi Zorba/everyone - guilty as charged. Hope you have recovered from your Knox nightmare *scream*!!

It feels a bit surreal that the SC is less than a week away now, I have that nervous, calm before the storm type feeling in my stomach - God knows how the Kerchers are feeling, this nightmare is neverending for them and will never end no matter how the SC rules. I feel positive about it though, there will be something very wrong if the SC upholds Hellman but lets not think about that, I dont think it will happen.

Both .org and .net have been interesting recently, I am always amazed how even if revisiting evidence/topics which have been discussed before, something new always comes up and the discussions always reiterate how guilty the three are - there are no reasonable explanations for any aspect of their behaviour, the things they said, the way they acted - absolutely no redeeming features from any of the 3 - not one! Quite a feat really........

I am off to bed soon as I have been up till 1am for the past 3 nights (very late for me) watching Indian Wells tennis - my husband has now accepted that he has been foresaken for Andy Murray!!

Fingers, arms, legs and eyes etc crossed for next week - take care everyone. Dx

RIP lovely Meredith
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Offline capealadin


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Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:58 am

Posts: 4089

Highscores: 11

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

I haven't posted much lately because..well..I'm waiting for the 25th. ( although I'm expecting them to postpone again)..that is..unless it is mandatory to issue a verdict then.

I've been following the Arias trial..not least because it also was a senseless crime..out of jealousy and rejection. To a good person..with lots of * don't remembers and lies *.

That doesn't mean I don't find the posts interesting..vis a vis going over some facts again.

Ergon...It is indeed disgraceful what the furrier is trying to do. Via your personal life. But, he is the lowest of the low..and it is being done out of spite and anger..re: Sfarzo and the unveiling of same. It would be a sign of intelligence, m'thinks..if the furrier's members could look upon his latest shenanigans as a way to have people hopefully *forget * his latest transgressions.

And, if Sfarzo had nothing to hide..he would not be hiding his posts in hidden forums. Duh.

_________________
"You have been PERMANENTLY Banned!" - by .ORG eee-)
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Offline tamale


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:13 pm

Posts: 615

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

capealadin wrote:
I haven't posted much lately because..well..I'm waiting for the 25th. ( although I'm expecting them to postpone again)..that is..unless it is mandatory to issue a verdict then.

I've been following the Arias trial..not least because it also was a senseless crime..out of jealousy and rejection. To a good person..with lots of * don't remembers and lies *.

That doesn't mean I don't find the posts interesting..vis a vis going over some facts again.

Ergon...It is indeed disgraceful what the furrier is trying to do. Via your personal life. But, he is the lowest of the low..and it is being done out of spite and anger..re: Sfarzo and the unveiling of same. It would be a sign of intelligence, m'thinks..if the furrier's members could look upon his latest shenanigans as a way to have people hopefully *forget * his latest transgressions.

And, if Sfarzo had nothing to hide..he would not be hiding his posts in hidden forums. Duh.


Frank is a coward. He is still sending threats and whatnot. I don't even read, cause I don't care what he says. I know he holds me responsible for revealing to the world what a loser he is. In truth, he did it to himself. He is going to get a really big surprise. Laugh.
I still wonder why there are so many morally bankrupt posters at IIP?? If they were indeed for the truth, then they would not need to resort to lame BS. I predict the behavior of a few will come back to bite them in the ass.
PS- stay away from Franks twitter acct...it has been red flagged.
Hang tough Ergon.
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Offline Napia5


User avatar


Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:23 pm

Posts: 1893

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Hi, tamale. I'm not familiar with Twitter. What does red flagged mean?
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Offline capealadin


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Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:58 am

Posts: 4089

Highscores: 11

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Tamale...Coward doesn'T EVEN BEGIN to say anything about Frank. He's a LIAR, An abuser..and more..and now a fugitive for not showing up at his trials on at least 2 continents.

Whatever he's posting..to whomever...members better be VERY, very careful. After all, what's to stop him from doing the same to THEm, at some date? Oooooerrr.....

_________________
"You have been PERMANENTLY Banned!" - by .ORG eee-)
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Offline Stan


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Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:35 am

Posts: 130

Highscores: 5

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

TJMK has posted up the video of Jodi Arias in the police station........worth a look.... nw) br-))
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Offline zorba


User avatar


Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:11 am

Posts: 4233

Location: London

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ava wrote:
At least she tries:

Hayden Panettiere Apologizes To Murder Victim’s Family

March 18, 2013 | 12:36pm EST

Actress Hayden Panettiere has apologized to the family of murder victim Meredith Kercher after portraying her accused killer Amanda Knox onscreen.
The Heroes star took the role of Knox in controversial 2011 TV movie Amanda Knox: Murder on Trial in Italy while the student was still in jail for the slaying.
Knox was set free later that year after a court in Italy overturned the verdict and quashed her murder conviction, and Panettiere has now spoken out to offer her sympathies to Kercher’s family for any heartache her movie caused.
Panettiere tells British magazine Stella, “I can completely understand the feelings of the Kercher family… I apologize deeply for any pain that was inflicted. But I didn’t do anything out of disrespect.”
British student Kercher was found stabbed to death at her rented home in Perugia, Italy in 2007. Her housemate Knox and Knox’s boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito were convicted of killing her during a kinky sex game but they were both freed on appeal in 2011.


http://www.wenn.com/all-news/hayden-pan ... W+(W.E.N.N)



Hey that's great, really like that, from her. At the time, the film seemed so inappropriate and premature, on account of that, I did not even look far enough to see from which angle her role was coming, as I disagreed with them making a film so soon, and kind of detested her, as I thought she was an air head, yet another ome, this move though does me good to see, it says she is worth more than I imagined she was, it's horrible to have to hate a pretty woman and I couldn't stand the sight of her after that film.

This means she must have been taking a look herself and is then not someone who has swallowed all of the nonsense, I mean, part of the propaganda involved letting everyone think that everyone else agreed with them, when that was never true. Where people speak of life imitating art, the propaganda number would mean, similarly; creating a fantasy and having everyone thing it is reality.

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Offline tamale


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:13 pm

Posts: 615

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Napia5 wrote:
Hi, tamale. I'm not familiar with Twitter. What does red flagged mean?


Hi Napia,

It means his account has been infected and if you open it you are at risk for picking up a nasty bug that could infect your system. It also means people have given it an unsatisfactory grade. I have a program that flags the loser places. That is the best truth I can come up with. Wink
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Offline tamale


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:13 pm

Posts: 615

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

capealadin wrote:
Tamale...Coward doesn'T EVEN BEGIN to say anything about Frank. He's a LIAR, An abuser..and more..and now a fugitive for not showing up at his trials on at least 2 continents.

Whatever he's posting..to whomever...members better be VERY, very careful. After all, what's to stop him from doing the same to THEm, at some date? Oooooerrr.....


Yep...nobody can be sure they are safe. A few people o'er there have expressed their fear of exposure... Yes, folks should be very careful. Frank is making notes...
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Offline Ava


Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:08 pm

Posts: 943

PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:18 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

zorba wrote:

Hey that's great, really like that, from her. At the time, the film seemed so inappropriate and premature, on account of that, I did not even look far enough to see from which angle her role was coming, as I disagreed with them making a film so soon, and kind of detested her, as I thought she was an air head, yet another ome, this move though does me good to see, it says she is worth more than I imagined she was, it's horrible to have to hate a pretty woman and I couldn't stand the sight of her after that film.

This means she must have been taking a look herself and is then not someone who has swallowed all of the nonsense, I mean, part of the propaganda involved letting everyone think that everyone else agreed with them, when that was never true. Where people speak of life imitating art, the propaganda number would mean, similarly; creating a fantasy and having everyone thing it is reality.


Yeah, well, she did do the movie and is probably as career-driven as everyone else, but I also think it's a nice gesture. She didn't have to say it but she did, it's nice. And afaik no one else involved in the production apologized or said anything like that.
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Offline zinnia


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Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 2:57 am

Posts: 56

Location: Northern California

PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:50 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Hi all.... is something wrong with the board? I am only getting really old posts for the most part and the display is really weird.... has the site been hacked? Hope it's just me, but feedback would be good. Thanks.
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Offline zorba


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Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:11 am

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:27 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Hi Zinnia, what is the post you see above your own one?

I cannot see anything wrong, the posts I see are current.

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Offline ttrroonniicc


Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:12 pm

Posts: 1073

PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:49 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

What's going to happen when banks in Cyprus open on Thursday (delayed from Tuesday).

Think people are going to want all their money out?

someone with a bulldozer, outside a Cyprus bank, Saturday .. policeman talking to him

Image
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Offline Itchy Brother


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Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 11:35 pm

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Location: California/U.S.A.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:48 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Napia5 wrote:
I have also been following some links to book reviews. I'm beginning to see some sort of pattern developing, but I'm not quite finished yet. In a nutshell to this point:

I have discovered that there is quite a quantity of new accounts, or blogs, who are set up as book reviewers. Some of these accounts have opened in October or November. Like I said, they are new. When you read their home pages, some of them are quite clear that, if you read one of their reviews, and then buy that book using their link, they get a credit from Amazon, since these links go directly to the Amazon site.

In a hour of reading, I found 4 reviewers who are just NOW reading a certain "Monster' book, which we know was originally released in 2008. I don't yet have enough information on this to understand exactly what is happening, but I must say that I find this incredibly odd. Why would new reviewers be reading old books?


That is odd. It could be a coincidence or it just might be the early stages of a marketing campaign. Keep an eye on those reviewers; I wouldn't be surprised if you find them tying two or three specific titles together over the next couple months.
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Offline Itchy Brother


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:56 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

malvern wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
I also noticed that Guermantes has posted some thoughtful information in the Links section about the book, "Math on Trial."


The machine has posted a link to an interview with the authors of "Math on Trial" on .org. She discusses the DNA on the knife and explains what naturally occurring stutters look like compared to small sample peaks.Meredith's DNA stood out. It is enlightening particularly if you have tried to figure out what Chris H says about the sample. Chris deliberately tries to confuse to nullify results. The decent result of DNA would have been strengthened by another test if Hellman had allowed. The high accuracy rate would have been difficult to wave away. The interview is worth a listen and the book sounds very interesting.


I'm a little bit more than half way through and I am enjoying it very much. It's great to find a book that is enlightening, entertaining, and socially valuable all at the same time. Assuming the remaining chapters are as brilliant as the first 6, I will be posting a glowing review on Amazon as soon as I finish.
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Offline Itchy Brother


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:01 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

ttrroonniicc wrote:
What's going to happen when banks in Cyprus open on Thursday (delayed from Tuesday).

Think people are going to want all their money out?


That would seem to be the logical course of action. As Atrios says "We are ruled by the stupidest fucking people on the planet."
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:23 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

ttrroonniicc wrote:
What's going to happen when banks in Cyprus open on Thursday (delayed from Tuesday).

Think people are going to want all their money out?

someone with a bulldozer, outside a Cyprus bank, Saturday .. policeman talking to him

Image



Looks like he showed up to take the bank machine home

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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Itchy Brother wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
I have also been following some links to book reviews. I'm beginning to see some sort of pattern developing, but I'm not quite finished yet. In a nutshell to this point:

I have discovered that there is quite a quantity of new accounts, or blogs, who are set up as book reviewers. Some of these accounts have opened in October or November. Like I said, they are new. When you read their home pages, some of them are quite clear that, if you read one of their reviews, and then buy that book using their link, they get a credit from Amazon, since these links go directly to the Amazon site.

In a hour of reading, I found 4 reviewers who are just NOW reading a certain "Monster' book, which we know was originally released in 2008. I don't yet have enough information on this to understand exactly what is happening, but I must say that I find this incredibly odd. Why would new reviewers be reading old books?


That is odd. It could be a coincidence or it just might be the early stages of a marketing campaign. Keep an eye on those reviewers; I wouldn't be surprised if you find them tying two or three specific titles together over the next couple months.


Hi, Itchy. Here's what I found on Amazon:

1. Waiting to Be Heard. Release date: April 30, 2013
2. Honor Bound, paperback edition. Release date: April 23, 2013
3. Monster of Florence, new release of paperback, with "A new afterword on the shocking link to the Amanda Knox case."
Release date: April 23, 2013

So, I think I can safely assume that there is an expected fall-out of new attention in April. Free advertising. And a number of book bloggers leading the faithful to these releases with their comments.

More later.
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Stan wrote:
TJMK has posted up the video of Jodi Arias in the police station........worth a look.... nw) br-))


Stan.......It's on a par with knox's cartwheels....The mind absolutley BOGGLES..... wtf)

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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Napia5 wrote:
Itchy Brother wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
I have also been following some links to book reviews. I'm beginning to see some sort of pattern developing, but I'm not quite finished yet. In a nutshell to this point:

I have discovered that there is quite a quantity of new accounts, or blogs, who are set up as book reviewers. Some of these accounts have opened in October or November. Like I said, they are new. When you read their home pages, some of them are quite clear that, if you read one of their reviews, and then buy that book using their link, they get a credit from Amazon, since these links go directly to the Amazon site.

In a hour of reading, I found 4 reviewers who are just NOW reading a certain "Monster' book, which we know was originally released in 2008. I don't yet have enough information on this to understand exactly what is happening, but I must say that I find this incredibly odd. Why would new reviewers be reading old books?


That is odd. It could be a coincidence or it just might be the early stages of a marketing campaign. Keep an eye on those reviewers; I wouldn't be surprised if you find them tying two or three specific titles together over the next couple months.


Hi, Itchy. Here's what I found on Amazon:

1. Waiting to Be Heard. Release date: April 30, 2013
2. Honor Bound, paperback edition. Release date: April 23, 2013
3. Monster of Florence, new release of paperback, with "A new afterword on the shocking link to the Amanda Knox case."
Release date: April 23, 2013

So, I think I can safely assume that there is an expected fall-out of new attention in April. Free advertising. And a number of book bloggers leading the faithful to these releases with their comments.

More later.



I mentioned having picked up Monster for free. What a slog to get through it..and I'm a voracious reader. In a nutshell........rubbish.

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Offline dgfred


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:19 pm

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Location: N.C., USA

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

'rubbish' as in RS's first version of the events of the evening (aka what AK told him to say)?

or 'rubbish' as in not really worth picking out of the free-bin?
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:05 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Rubbish as in Monster was THE worst read ever. RS's first..well..all of his versions...transparently false..and total *bulshits *.

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Offline ttrroonniicc


Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:12 pm

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:06 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

zorba wrote:
Yet the Internet can be a powerful tool, I mean this is not only about this type of abuse, even full grown adults have been talked out of their life savings, people who were not stupid, but the coin artists know which buttons to push and what things work. I've heard of some incredibly sad cases, some old guy for instance, getting some builder in to fit a conservatory / patio and then somehow the job takes forever never gets done and the guy needs more and more money, and as the old guy is stuck there and wants it done, goes off to the bank again and again. Worse though is the con artist who fits the conservatory properly, on time, and nicely, and talked the old guy into more building work or the old guy imagines he might like other things done, it's at this point with multiple jobs going on, that the con person talks the old guy, gradually and in many steps, out of his total life savings.

Was just going to interject and mention operator/conman/FOA spokesperson Frank Sforza, but you beat me to it. Reading you non-linearly zorba.

zorba wrote:
Now I hope that some guy called Frank from Perugia who apparently has a bad temper and takes to using his fists on men and women does not hear these things for he will most likely think I'm offering tips on how to rob folk, but for you decent people, be careful.

Frank Sforza was the main source for Candace Dempseys heavily promoted book outlining their "case for innocence".
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:33 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Hi Troon,

Yes, Dempsey shouldn't be allowed to get away with being a disgrace to women everywhere, good of you to remind everyone.

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Offline daisysteiner


Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:59 pm

Posts: 490

PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:46 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

I’ve been watching the hideous news about the Steubenville case and am aghast at the different and frightening reactions from the US media towards the victim and the rapists. And then I remembered Meredith’s case and it all made sense. Meredith was forgotten by the US media much in the same way as Jane Doe whilst folk heroes are made out of her attackers like they did out of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito. Articles and pieces to camera about how these guys have ruined their football careers and their good grades. Not a peep about Jane and her life and grades (although Jane has fought back and is on the honour roll of her school), not a peep about how that poor cow has to walk around her town with people knowing who she is. Fox apparently named her. Appalling. I hope she sues them out of existence for all of our sakes.

Makes you wonder how much paid PR Knox actually needed. It seems that if you’re white, good looking and involved in a shocking tale then the US media will make a case for you. I don't even know why people need defence lawyers sometimes when the press is making the case better than any solicitor ever could. Nice to see Jodi Arias is making heads explode over in the States though. Cartwheels for police? Many versions of the truth? Bizarre explanations for DNA evidence – or the lack of it. Where have we seen that before? And I’ll bet you a million pounds that the people carrying pitchforks and wanting Arias hung in the town square are the same ones wanting Amanda Knox beatified. Madonna/Whore complex of the US laid bare for all to see.
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Offline dgfred


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:19 pm

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Hey daisy. Fox wasn't the only one letting out the name of the victim.

I find it odd how the US media doesn't really mention that at this point AK is a convicted felon... just for accusing Patrick. If that would be the beginning of their stories (with a mention of it matching what likely happened by replacing with RG) I wonder if US opinion might be a litttle different.

Without spin and an objective/open mind, there is no way to look at the evidence and find AK and RS innocent.

But if you take each little piece and say Mignini did this, the police did that, the interrogator did so and so, the mean police hit them, the experts got it wrong, the Italian press vilified her, her words were taken out of context, his words were taken out of context, they are quirky lovebirds, the witnesses were mistaken, the witnesses lied, the gloves were dirty, the bra-clasp wasn't collected immediately, the test were LCN, RS's apt always smelled of bleach, AK didn't have money but then did, she was describing a vision... not what actually happened, a bathmat boogie thru blood is normal, e-mails were sent but probably deleted, they were looking at the computer but the police ruined them, they wrote stuff in their diary just thinking out loud- doesn't mean anything. ON AND ON AND ON.

The US press should mostly be embarrassed... but I doubt they are. The truth is sometimes a stranger to them IMO.
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Offline daisysteiner


Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:59 pm

Posts: 490

PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

dgfred wrote:
Hey daisy. Fox wasn't the only one letting out the name of the victim.

I find it odd how the US media doesn't really mention that at this point AK is a convicted felon... just for accusing Patrick. If that would be the beginning of their stories (with a mention of it matching what likely happened by replacing with RG) I wonder if US opinion might be a litttle different.

Without spin and an objective/open mind, there is no way to look at the evidence and find AK and RS innocent.

But if you take each little piece and say Mignini did this, the police did that, the interrogator did so and so, the mean police hit them, the experts got it wrong, the Italian press vilified her, her words were taken out of context, his words were taken out of context, they are quirky lovebirds, the witnesses were mistaken, the witnesses lied, the gloves were dirty, the bra-clasp wasn't collected immediately, the test were LCN, RS's apt always smelled of bleach, AK didn't have money but then did, she was describing a vision... not what actually happened, a bathmat boogie thru blood is normal, e-mails were sent but probably deleted, they were looking at the computer but the police ruined them, they wrote stuff in their diary just thinking out loud- doesn't mean anything. ON AND ON AND ON.

The US press should mostly be embarrassed... but I doubt they are. The truth is sometimes a stranger to them IMO.


Totally agree. In the eyes of the US media, Knox and Sollecito are the unluckiest pair since, well I can't remember who has ever had such a run of bad luck as K & S. Imagine all those things that you list above happening and it all being just bad luck or a misunderstanding. Highly improbable if not impossible. Sadly the media caters for the lowest common denominator which is pretty damn low it seems in the US. Not everyone is stupid in the States, but there do seem to be more than average based on the media presentations and also the scary comments under many articles blaming the victim. She could have stripped herself naked before passing out, still doesn't give those boys the right to do what they want. I think I'd like to do what Jane Doe's mum has asked everyone to do - donate to the Steubenville Rape Crisis centre (or the equivalent - are they called women's shelters in the states?). Its also about time someone educated that town. I just read that some of the videos/pictures were taken at the home of one of the football coaches. I'm not sure which is worse, an adolescent rapist or an adult enabler.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:38 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

18.03. 2013

Meredith: Spezi's book comes out in Germany

The journalist: "Why no Italian publisher wanted to publish it?"

Attachment:
Mario Spezi.JPG


"My new book, written with Douglas Preston, on the scandalous story of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito comes out in Germany today, publisher Droemer Knaur (KINDLE edition). The matter can affect a few people, but what may be of interest is that no Italian publisher wanted to publish it."

As written on his Facebook profile, the grassinese journalist [il giornalista grassinese] Mario Spezi, published, together with Preston, the bestseller "Rolling hills of blood." Known to the general public for the days he spent in prison on charges of interfering with the investigation into the "Monster of Florence", he has also closely followed the story of the murder of student Meredith Kercher in Perugia.

What Spezi says when he is about to release his book, as "Der Engel mit den Eisaugen" is not supporting the guilty thesis advanced against the pair Knox-Sollecito, the Italian publishing world has closed its doors [to us].

"Just as no Italian publisher wanted to publish the book by Raffaele - complains Spezi - "Honour Bound", which came in 24th place in the New York Times [Bestseller List], nor the book by Amanda that will be in bookstores on April 30. Why? No one has an answer. "

"All I know is - he concludes - that if I and Douglas had written a book in support of guilt, a leading publisher would publish it. Who decides what Italians should or should not read? They can not know anything about what they are capable of combining justice and the Italian police? " [Not sure if the Google translation of this sentence is correct...]

IL GAZZETTINO DEL CHIANTI


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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Thanks for this, Guermantes. Maybe Spezi should check with Sollecito about all of his upcoming lawsuits. Then maybe he will understand why nobody wants the book.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

guermantes wrote:
Meredith: Spezi's book comes out in Germany

The journalist: "Why no Italian publisher wanted to publish it?"


Because you are a twisted old coffin dodger Spezi, one who thinks he is above the law.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Maybe Sfarts is staying with him?

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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

zorba wrote:
Maybe Sfarts is staying with him?


Perfect, Zorba. They deserve each other.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Napia5 wrote:
zorba wrote:
Maybe Sfarts is staying with him?


Perfect, Zorba. They deserve each other.


Think so yeah!

He really does think he is a law unto himself, in that he thinks as a journalist, he happens to know everything, there is not as he implies any kind of set-up/conspiracy, it's just that generally people think it stinks, think that Knox and Sollecito stink, think that the pair, up until now have been able to get away with Meredith's murder, and the publisher know this and think thew same stuff, so they are not interested in putting money into something that won't sell, and those claims like 26th on the New York best seller list, all as I can say is that he does not know what he is talking about, does not know about the different lists, and these days, thinks judged by online voting are entirely unreliable, one thing is sure, Sollecito did'nt sell many books, so is it best seller list these days , meaning where it is out of 50 people; people in general are not reading as many books as were read before the arrival of the internet.
Yet another unlikable old meddling fcukwit.

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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:20 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

I found this listing for Sollecito's book today.

http://www.boffinsbookshop.com.au/books ... manda-knox

Does anyone know why Julia Scheeres is listed as co-author?
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:29 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

What do I wish for next week? My fervent hope is that the family of Meredith Kercher is at peace with the decision of the Supreme Court and believes that justice has been served.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Napia5 wrote:
What do I wish for next week? My fervent hope is that the family of Meredith Kercher is at peace with the decision of the Supreme Court and believes that justice has been served.


Seconded. Like all of us at PMF, waiting for the best outcome on Monday.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Major h/t to Yummi at .org

http://www.liberoquotidiano.it/news/120 ... ducci.html

http://it.notizie.yahoo.com/mostro-fire ... 00979.html

http://www.ansa.it/web/notizie/regioni/ ... 39513.html

A gfull article on La Nazione:

http://www.lanazione.it/umbria/cronaca/ ... enze.shtml

ETA: According to Yummi:

"The Prosecutor General asked for the re-opening of the Narducci case; that is the case against Spezi, Preston and all 20 defendants (those the innocentisti call "persecuted innocents")."
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

daisysteiner wrote:
I'd love to post more but between work, home, uni (glutton for punishment, gone back for more education!), and the sinking grim feeling that the SC is going to take the easy way despite a fuck ton of evidence to the contrary, I'm struggling to think of stuff to post that will be constructive. Literally, if on the 25th we get the result that gives Meredith a hope of justice, I'll be back with bells on and fired up for the fight. Between now and then, I think concentrating on keeping my own counsel and sending good and positive vibes to the Kerchers is the best thing for me.


Why would the Italian Supreme Court take the easy way out? The two panels of judges from the Supreme Court who have been involved in the case all believe that Knox and Sollecito were involved in Meredith's murder. The gravity and sheer number of Hellmann's mistakes and his repeated violations of the Italian Criminal Procedure Code mean that the Supreme Court has no option other than to invalidate Hellmann's verdict.
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Offline ttrroonniicc


Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:12 pm

Posts: 1073

PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:27 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

napia5 wrote:
"those the innocentisti call 'persecuted innocents'"

that's their pitch, always disturbing to hear (as we're the persecutors, "hate group" etc)

a 9lb rock thrown at least 10 feet through a window, landing within the room, directly under the window without having bounced off anything, alerting anyone around or Meredith Kercher, enabling her escape

entry gained by climbing up a whitewashed wall without leaving any scuff marks. glass found in line on the windowledge, on the inside. no organic matter found anywhere there, on the wall, ledge, or inside, despite it having been november and the ground beneath the window consisting of leaves and soft earth (undisturbed)

a singular footprint in blood, of the dimension Raffaele Sollecito on the bathmat. no footprints around, indicating a cleanup

multiple conflicting alibis

an accusation

manipulated witnesses

Francesco Sollecito in admissable phone recorded conversation with his son: "don't worry son, money can make water flow uphill". Vanessa Sollecito, the sister Carbinieri (Police) of Raffaele Sollecito, dismissed from her job for trying to "fix things". RS admission of a conversation Vanessa related having with one of her seniors, that they could have "fixed" the whole thing for him if they'd have got there earlier. Rudy Guede being beaten up in jail twice, once a week prior to the appeal of Raffaele Sollecito.

03 Dec 2007

Dramatic new evidence has emerged that may help prove that Amanda Knox, the American girl accused of murdering Meredith Kercher, was present when the British student died.

Knox was secretly bugged by investigators while talking to her parents in prison, in a conversation which appears to contradict her previous insistences that she was not in the house on the night of the murder.

Police sources revealed that when the conversation turned to whether Knox, 20, was at the scene, she said: “It’s stupid, I can’t say anything else, I was there and I cannot lie about it.”

etc (just a sample of things)
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Offline zorba


User avatar


Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:11 am

Posts: 4233

Location: London

PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:50 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Typical behaviour of murderers often seen by Medical Examiners

You would never believe it happens so often if the facts didn't prove to you that it does.

Murderers who not only are actually out to murder someone, let us say, women, but humiliate them, even in death, if that is possible, humiliate is obviously not the correct word but in the mind of the murderer, it is indeed what he/she wishes to do to the victim, and one of the main factors is that violent cases, here meaning rape and murder, are all about power over another.

This is in my head as I watched Dr. Jan Garavaglia, the Chief Medical Examiner with Florida's District Nine Medical Examiner's office in Orlando, Florida, examine a corpse, a young lady, aged 21, in the end she determined the victim had been strangled. more specifically, the murderer had torn the victim's underwear (panties) off and these contained faeces, the Dr explained that faeces was something she often saw in such cases, obviously as the victim struggles to fight off the attacker, and also as a reaction to being strangled, the absolute sheer terror of knowing that person is going to kill you, as the bones in your neck crack, passing faeces becomes an uncontrollable bodily function. Men hung or who hang themselves ejaculate and pass faeces, urination is also normal.

So here you have a murderer, who rips those panties off, tearing them, as they were not removed in any normal way, like via the feet, but ripped off tearing them to shreds at the waist, these contained faeces and this he wiped over her dead body.

The examiner could tell this was the case as none of this excrement was on the victim's hands.

As profiling goes, they then had this fact; the murderer was of the type that wanted to act out the sense of power he had over the victim by doing something as bad as the murder itself; to mock the victim, the dead victim, to trash her, to insult her, and whatever other words one can think up in relation to this act to describe what he was doing and why.

The malice aforethought was clear, easily, from the crime scene, because in order to try to cover his tracks, he built a fire in between her legs, to destroy any traces of DNA< et cetera.
This was successful, and only through the DNA found under her fingernails were they able to catch him out, he later admitted to another murder he had committed in 1999, he revealed this only after having been sentenced to deatrh, and after admitting that crime. He had raped several other women, attempted to strangle one, and therefore, there may be other females who were murdered by him but in a way, that left no traces of him. I'm saying all of this because what the pair did, after Meredith had been murdered, reminds me of this. Like Knox being generally untidy, not doing her share, and her lack of sense of decency, such as leaving a vibrator in what is a public space as far as you are not the sole occupier of a dwelling therefore you share, and to leave a vibrator where everyone can see it, like visitors, simply leaves an odd impression on those visitors, after all, does Knox's mother leave one in their bathroom?

Then you examine what Knox did and said, in relation to Meredith, supposedly trying to think along as to what happened, questioning out loud, was Meredith having her period and is this why there was blood in the bathroom, euwwww, gross!!!

That is so cruel to say, even if it had ever been true, this way of doing'things showed a total disregard for Meredith, if she could say such a nasty thing and make such a cheap comment in death, how about in life then?
Her trying to make Meredith look bad, was part of her humiliating the victim, Knox was smearing the faeces of ill-intention and bad words and thoughts all over Meredith's personality.
There had been criticism and friction with regard to Knox's personality, she couldn't deal with it in any ordinary adult way, so got Meredith, not just through murder, but through the acts of demeaning her in any way she could.

Going shopping and laughing and joking while purchasing sexy underwear, was not just bad for reasons of poor manners; it too was part of the attack on the victim, the power over another, the contempt for the victim is part of the exercise.

If you are out to kill someone and you do succeed, and you had reasons in your mind, from whatever period in your life, like hang-ups that you acquired that made you bitter towards others and also where you never learned to know who you are and to be able to accept criticism yet not allow it to bend your own sense of self-worth, where you would say, he says that about me but I know who I am and that is not true, then you will enter defence mode and never know the difference between a person trying to help you, or one who is or is trying to tread all over you, to the insecure person, without any self-knowledge-skills any criticism means he/she is saying I'm all bad.

That is then processed as someone being aggressive to them when it is not reality, and so the one on the defence, retaliates, having no control, he/she wants to stop the ill effect on him/herself and to turn it all around, it is you who are bad, and I am better, I am more, I am more powerful, you are not my boss. This is why people want to belittle others, like the man above, when he killed a total stranger, more than one in fact, it must mnean either he was born wicked or somewhere in his history something happened to him that made him want to blame everyone else and to hurt them too.

It's like a murderer rubbing a person's own excrement over their dead body is a way of saying, look at you now, you're not all that now are ya. And I think Knox's behaviour shows those feelings of deep contempt and misunderstandiong of how others saw her.

The person insecure and unknowledgable of the rudiments of self-analysis and the workings of psychology, goes into defenbce mode, and launches an attack o n the source of the criticism for the criticism is not experienced by the insecure as something that could be partly true or at least the opiniuon of someone else and which if partly true might be someone simply saying it in a constructive way, no, the insecure person experiences any criticism as part of the reason they themselkves feel so shit or anything and everything in their life that is or was wrong becomes all the fault of the person who is making that person being criticised feel bad.

The feeling bad through criticism is then meshed up with the entiure lifetime of experiences and the victim becomes the one to blame for everything.

This is how people can murder someone and go off and laugh and joke and say we have to get on with our lives, shit happens, whatevva, she was English, nice, funny, but, I have my life, let's buy some sexy unberwear.To the murderer, he/she has gotten back at the one who is bad, bad in the eyes of the murderer because he/she criticised the murderer, the one lacking life skills and self-awareness, and who is secretly very insecure whilst being loud all the time (jumping on tables, singing full out in a quiet restaurant while your companions are chatting) to pretend to others that all is okay,it is so typical, like little kids getting in a fight, and raging, saying, You don't do that to me.
In my view, and that means the above too, You Do Not Do That To Me is written all over Meredith's murder, and I fear it was Knox who was in that state of mind.

I keep noticing her demeanour, her appearance is so muddled, for if you look at her in a crowd, she is the one who stands out as the one person there who would blush at the slightest thing, yet, in her life, it seems to me, she developed ways to seem to overcome that, probably unknown to anyone close to her, for they only understand the awkward, shy person, and see that as part of what makes her loved by them, for they cannot undreratand or even conceive oif how that shy person, could have done, what so many think she did do; murder Meredith, they cannot see that through her lack of balance and groundedness, in situations she could turn entirely into someone else, and this is clear, where she had to defend herself, she could (in court), she then did not appear shy at all, in fact her whining voice to me sounded aggressive and the little bit of it in court from the videos that I was able to stomach long enough told me, or made me think, god... in a situation without witnesses, I could really imagine her going nuts on someone if she didn't get her way, and that is exactly what happened, I think.


Her defending herself, her smothering her actual disposition, her overwhelming shyness and sense of not belonging or being worthy or good enough, was overcome by her participating and being competitive, so that she appeared to be one of the jocks. Where it went wrong, I fear, once again, and suspect, is that when removed from her familiar habitat and her back-up system of props supporting her make-believe persona, without the props given by those familiar with her, her real character was no longer pandered to by people who were not bound to her by country or state lines, not bound to her by familiar customs and local habits. She then came undone and my belief is that away from home she became someone that even back home nobody knew, I think it is this odd, or peculiar paradox of contradictory behaviour -- what is and what seems to be -- that cost Meredith her life.

If it is true what I have outlines, and Knox does have such problems with herself, well then, where will she in the world be able to get help, get help without revealing the facts of her life, which I believe to be that she is guilty of murder.

Maybe she is innocent but I think for me to believe that I would have to have been born yesterday.

_________________
Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
Ignorance of the law is no excuse
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Offline daisysteiner


Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:59 pm

Posts: 490

PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:26 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

The Machine wrote:
daisysteiner wrote:
I'd love to post more but between work, home, uni (glutton for punishment, gone back for more education!), and the sinking grim feeling that the SC is going to take the easy way despite a fuck ton of evidence to the contrary, I'm struggling to think of stuff to post that will be constructive. Literally, if on the 25th we get the result that gives Meredith a hope of justice, I'll be back with bells on and fired up for the fight. Between now and then, I think concentrating on keeping my own counsel and sending good and positive vibes to the Kerchers is the best thing for me.


Why would the Italian Supreme Court take the easy way out? The two panels of judges from the Supreme Court who have been involved in the case all believe that Knox and Sollecito were involved in Meredith's murder. The gravity and sheer number of Hellmann's mistakes and his repeated violations of the Italian Criminal Procedure Code mean that the Supreme Court has no option other than to invalidate Hellmann's verdict.


That's the easiest question you've ever asked me Machine..Why would the SC take the easy way out? Because Hellman already has taken the easy way out by releasing Knox and Sollecito. Much as I'd love to believe they are following due process and will fully look at the evidence, there is an element of "pfft, too much trouble, get rid of it" in Italian culture and I can see the Supreme Court taking that option. There was enough for Hellman to put them away but he didn't, why was that? Also, I read about the concept of the Alford plea in the US system the other day, I can see the SC going for a sort of reverse of that to please everyone by putting a narrative together that says they're not pursuing the case further but they recognise that there is a lot of evidence that points to the guilt of the accused. If they are brave then this will go back to the lower stages for reexamination but thanks to austerity, there's a load of cost/benefit analysis going on in European governments and the cost/benefit analysis of going to administrative war with the US government over a nothing like Amanda Knox just isn't worth it. Like it or not, money talks and the US has more to mess about with than Italy. Perhaps I'm in a mood where if i expect the worst then everything over that is a bonus?

All of that said, I've been wandering about Twitter recently and the amount of tweets that put Jodi Arias, Amanda Knox and Casey Anthony in the same sentence, implying they are similar types of women, is pretty amazing. Unless you're from a West Seattle zip code or just a bit tapped, then there's a definite undeniable feeling that Knox got away with murder so who knows how Monday will go. And that's a huge change in the mood since Knox was released when everyone west of the Atlantic and east of the Pacific thought she was innocent. You'll notice I haven't mentioned Sollecito, that's because in North America, he's non-existent unless he talks about Amanda.

Speaking of Raffaele....Sollecito is trying to phish his twitter followers; I keep getting messages from him with links to phishing sites which asks for my twitter login details. Funny that a supposed computer science genius hasn't noticed and apologised to his followers like hacked accounts usually do - perhaps a little bit paranoid Raffy, wondering who's following you on social media? And no, I'm not daisysteiner on Twitter before his attack dogs start trawling his followers to work out who I am ;)
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Offline daisysteiner


Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:59 pm

Posts: 490

PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:53 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ok so I posted the above before I had a peek at .org and saw the Narducci case being reopened and the SC has accepted all of Mignini's arguments on this case. Am trying so hard not to get my hopes up but if the SC are accepting Mignini's evidence in the Narducci case then there is a better than average chance for Monday. Meredith might see justice done after all :)

All of a sudden, I imagine there are a few twitchy arses in the Pacific North West and in the south of Italy.
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Offline zorba


User avatar


Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:11 am

Posts: 4233

Location: London

PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

daisysteiner wrote:
The Machine wrote:
daisysteiner wrote:
I'd love to post more but between work, home, uni (glutton for punishment, gone back for more education!), and the sinking grim feeling that the SC is going to take the easy way despite a fuck ton of evidence to the contrary, I'm struggling to think of stuff to post that will be constructive. Literally, if on the 25th we get the result that gives Meredith a hope of justice, I'll be back with bells on and fired up for the fight. Between now and then, I think concentrating on keeping my own counsel and sending good and positive vibes to the Kerchers is the best thing for me.


Why would the Italian Supreme Court take the easy way out? The two panels of judges from the Supreme Court who have been involved in the case all believe that Knox and Sollecito were involved in Meredith's murder. The gravity and sheer number of Hellmann's mistakes and his repeated violations of the Italian Criminal Procedure Code mean that the Supreme Court has no option other than to invalidate Hellmann's verdict.


That's the easiest question you've ever asked me Machine..Why would the SC take the easy way out? Because Hellman already has taken the easy way out by releasing Knox and Sollecito. Much as I'd love to believe they are following due process and will fully look at the evidence, there is an element of "pfft, too much trouble, get rid of it" in Italian culture and I can see the Supreme Court taking that option. There was enough for Hellman to put them away but he didn't, why was that? Also, I read about the concept of the Alford plea in the US system the other day, I can see the SC going for a sort of reverse of that to please everyone by putting a narrative together that says they're not pursuing the case further but they recognise that there is a lot of evidence that points to the guilt of the accused. If they are brave then this will go back to the lower stages for reexamination but thanks to austerity, there's a load of cost/benefit analysis going on in European governments and the cost/benefit analysis of going to administrative war with the US government over a nothing like Amanda Knox just isn't worth it. Like it or not, money talks and the US has more to mess about with than Italy. Perhaps I'm in a mood where if i expect the worst then everything over that is a bonus?

All of that said, I've been wandering about Twitter recently and the amount of tweets that put Jodi Arias, Amanda Knox and Casey Anthony in the same sentence, implying they are similar types of women, is pretty amazing. Unless you're from a West Seattle zip code or just a bit tapped, then there's a definite undeniable feeling that Knox got away with murder so who knows how Monday will go. And that's a huge change in the mood since Knox was released when everyone west of the Atlantic and east of the Pacific thought she was innocent. You'll notice I haven't mentioned Sollecito, that's because in North America, he's non-existent unless he talks about Amanda.

Speaking of Raffaele....Sollecito is trying to phish his twitter followers; I keep getting messages from him with links to phishing sites which asks for my twitter login details. Funny that a supposed computer science genius hasn't noticed and apologised to his followers like hacked accounts usually do - perhaps a little bit paranoid Raffy, wondering who's following you on social media? And no, I'm not daisysteiner on Twitter before his attack dogs start trawling his followers to work out who I am ;)



I get what you are saying on all of these things Daisy, only, the Supreme Court does not HAVE to direct it back to a lower court it can decide to undo Hellmann's ruling and simply make the guilty judgment effective again.
I think I'm right but I may have the wrong end of the stick.

Further though, I think you may not be right about the feeling you get; recently a group of top CIA staff was found guilty, in absentia, no European or global financial crises changed the will to have justice done on that, and if anything, maybe one might think if what you reason here, were true, then thee Italians would not want any trouble with America about its top dogs the CIA, but the Italians persevered, the prosecution did, and it won.

I'm not sure the Supreme Court works on a political basis where they would ever get together and say this justice is too much trouble, I don't agree on that idea, it'd mean they might as well all just throw in the towel, I think they are more worthy than that and the way the Supreme Court works means there are too many top judges in that body for it to be messed around with.

If a lower court judge throws a thing out and nobody appeals then considerations such as those outlined by you, might, sometimes play a part, as there are less controlling measures, initially, on a presiding judge in a lower court.
The Supreme court has retired judges in it, everything, it is more like the House of Lords of the courts, and it represents all of what the judiciary is supposed to stand for, in the names of all those attached to it.

As a personal damage control strategy, I think your approach might be the best one, meverything has already been nastier than nasty, the pair getting released in the first place not the least awful, it is indeed hard to take.

_________________
Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
Ignorance of the law is no excuse
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Offline daisysteiner


Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:59 pm

Posts: 490

PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

zorba wrote:
daisysteiner wrote:
The Machine wrote:
daisysteiner wrote:
I'd love to post more but between work, home, uni (glutton for punishment, gone back for more education!), and the sinking grim feeling that the SC is going to take the easy way despite a fuck ton of evidence to the contrary, I'm struggling to think of stuff to post that will be constructive. Literally, if on the 25th we get the result that gives Meredith a hope of justice, I'll be back with bells on and fired up for the fight. Between now and then, I think concentrating on keeping my own counsel and sending good and positive vibes to the Kerchers is the best thing for me.


Why would the Italian Supreme Court take the easy way out? The two panels of judges from the Supreme Court who have been involved in the case all believe that Knox and Sollecito were involved in Meredith's murder. The gravity and sheer number of Hellmann's mistakes and his repeated violations of the Italian Criminal Procedure Code mean that the Supreme Court has no option other than to invalidate Hellmann's verdict.


That's the easiest question you've ever asked me Machine..Why would the SC take the easy way out? Because Hellman already has taken the easy way out by releasing Knox and Sollecito. Much as I'd love to believe they are following due process and will fully look at the evidence, there is an element of "pfft, too much trouble, get rid of it" in Italian culture and I can see the Supreme Court taking that option. There was enough for Hellman to put them away but he didn't, why was that? Also, I read about the concept of the Alford plea in the US system the other day, I can see the SC going for a sort of reverse of that to please everyone by putting a narrative together that says they're not pursuing the case further but they recognise that there is a lot of evidence that points to the guilt of the accused. If they are brave then this will go back to the lower stages for reexamination but thanks to austerity, there's a load of cost/benefit analysis going on in European governments and the cost/benefit analysis of going to administrative war with the US government over a nothing like Amanda Knox just isn't worth it. Like it or not, money talks and the US has more to mess about with than Italy. Perhaps I'm in a mood where if i expect the worst then everything over that is a bonus?

All of that said, I've been wandering about Twitter recently and the amount of tweets that put Jodi Arias, Amanda Knox and Casey Anthony in the same sentence, implying they are similar types of women, is pretty amazing. Unless you're from a West Seattle zip code or just a bit tapped, then there's a definite undeniable feeling that Knox got away with murder so who knows how Monday will go. And that's a huge change in the mood since Knox was released when everyone west of the Atlantic and east of the Pacific thought she was innocent. You'll notice I haven't mentioned Sollecito, that's because in North America, he's non-existent unless he talks about Amanda.

Speaking of Raffaele....Sollecito is trying to phish his twitter followers; I keep getting messages from him with links to phishing sites which asks for my twitter login details. Funny that a supposed computer science genius hasn't noticed and apologised to his followers like hacked accounts usually do - perhaps a little bit paranoid Raffy, wondering who's following you on social media? And no, I'm not daisysteiner on Twitter before his attack dogs start trawling his followers to work out who I am ;)



I get what you are saying on all of these things Daisy, only, the Supreme Court does not HAVE to direct it back to a lower court it can decide to undo Hellmann's ruling and simply make the guilty judgment effective again.
I think I'm right but I may have the wrong end of the stick.

Further though, I think you may not be right about the feeling you get; recently a group of top CIA staff was found guilty, in absentia, no European or global financial crises changed the will to have justice done on that, and if anything, maybe one might think if what you reason here, were true, then thee Italians would not want any trouble with America about its top dogs the CIA, but the Italians persevered, the prosecution did, and it won.

I'm not sure the Supreme Court works on a political basis where they would ever get together and say this justice is too much trouble, I don't agree on that idea, it'd mean they might as well all just throw in the towel, I think they are more worthy than that and the way the Supreme Court works means there are too many top judges in that body for it to be messed around with.

If a lower court judge throws a thing out and nobody appeals then considerations such as those outlined by you, might, sometimes play a part, as there are less controlling measures, initially, on a presiding judge in a lower court.
The Supreme court has retired judges in it, everything, it is more like the House of Lords of the courts, and it represents all of what the judiciary is supposed to stand for, in the names of all those attached to it.

As a personal damage control strategy, I think your approach might be the best one, meverything has already been nastier than nasty, the pair getting released in the first place not the least awful, it is indeed hard to take.


Between your post Zorba, a lot of positive stuff on .org, a big dark cloud of doom hanging over the threads I just read on IA, the Narducci case AND the fact that Andrea V is calling the Naducci case a bellwether case for the Kercher appeal then I'm feeling A LOT more positive than I was a couple of hours ago.

Can I make a request? Could someone please tell me (in small words and hand gestures so that I get it properly!) exactly what the options are for the SC on Monday? Not guesses, a definitive guide to the options. I don't need to know details, just option 1/2/3 etc As Zorba says, can they just reinstate the original verdict then request madam's immediate extradition whilst putting an immediate arrest notice out for Sollecito? Really? Is this likely, particularly as I suppose a rejection of the appeal verdict isn't double jeopardy, its the original verdict reinstated with no retrial?
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Offline smacker


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Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:33 pm

Posts: 399

Location: The King's Head, SW17

PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

daisysteiner wrote:
The Machine wrote:
daisysteiner wrote:
I'd love to post more but between work, home, uni (glutton for punishment, gone back for more education!), and the sinking grim feeling that the SC is going to take the easy way despite a fuck ton of evidence to the contrary, I'm struggling to think of stuff to post that will be constructive. Literally, if on the 25th we get the result that gives Meredith a hope of justice, I'll be back with bells on and fired up for the fight. Between now and then, I think concentrating on keeping my own counsel and sending good and positive vibes to the Kerchers is the best thing for me.


Why would the Italian Supreme Court take the easy way out? The two panels of judges from the Supreme Court who have been involved in the case all believe that Knox and Sollecito were involved in Meredith's murder. The gravity and sheer number of Hellmann's mistakes and his repeated violations of the Italian Criminal Procedure Code mean that the Supreme Court has no option other than to invalidate Hellmann's verdict.


That's the easiest question you've ever asked me Machine..Why would the SC take the easy way out? Because Hellman already has taken the easy way out by releasing Knox and Sollecito. Much as I'd love to believe they are following due process and will fully look at the evidence, there is an element of "pfft, too much trouble, get rid of it" in Italian culture and I can see the Supreme Court taking that option. There was enough for Hellman to put them away but he didn't, why was that? Also, I read about the concept of the Alford plea in the US system the other day, I can see the SC going for a sort of reverse of that to please everyone by putting a narrative together that says they're not pursuing the case further but they recognise that there is a lot of evidence that points to the guilt of the accused. If they are brave then this will go back to the lower stages for reexamination but thanks to austerity, there's a load of cost/benefit analysis going on in European governments and the cost/benefit analysis of going to administrative war with the US government over a nothing like Amanda Knox just isn't worth it. Like it or not, money talks and the US has more to mess about with than Italy. Perhaps I'm in a mood where if i expect the worst then everything over that is a bonus?

All of that said, I've been wandering about Twitter recently and the amount of tweets that put Jodi Arias, Amanda Knox and Casey Anthony in the same sentence, implying they are similar types of women, is pretty amazing. Unless you're from a West Seattle zip code or just a bit tapped, then there's a definite undeniable feeling that Knox got away with murder so who knows how Monday will go. And that's a huge change in the mood since Knox was released when everyone west of the Atlantic and east of the Pacific thought she was innocent. You'll notice I haven't mentioned Sollecito, that's because in North America, he's non-existent unless he talks about Amanda.

Speaking of Raffaele....Sollecito is trying to phish his twitter followers; I keep getting messages from him with links to phishing sites which asks for my twitter login details. Funny that a supposed computer science genius hasn't noticed and apologised to his followers like hacked accounts usually do - perhaps a little bit paranoid Raffy, wondering who's following you on social media? And no, I'm not daisysteiner on Twitter before his attack dogs start trawling his followers to work out who I am ;)


I don't think Hellman took the easy way out. The easy and lazy way was for him to have reviewed all the evidence that convicted K&S in the first place, confirmed it still stood, confirmed the legality of the decision and left it at that. Surely overturning the verdict, having to create a great pile of crap to justify the decision, opening himself up to criticism and then overseeing the consequences of his decision making cost him his job was far harder?
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Offline Napia5


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Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:23 pm

Posts: 1893

PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

I think I can explain my own sense of uneasiness about the upcoming ruling.

When the Hellman decision came out, I was flabbergasted. Everything I read pointed away from a legal, well reasoned, well written report. I understood that Hellman's area of practice was not criminal, but still, this report read more like the pleadings of an aging aunt. (My apologies to aging aunts everywhere. I credit you all with more sense).

The fact that Hellman was not alone, was not the sole decision-maker in this ruling was even more surprising and depressing. When I read it, I kept thinking, how can this be legal? How is this even an opinion based upon law?

If Hellman had written a report of findings based upon 'not beyond a reasonable doubt', or some other basis, while still arguable, it would have at least been somewhat acceptable.

This total fail, in my opinion, this report of senseless, biased garbage, IMO, has created a good deal of unease in my mind that it might just happen again.
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Offline smacker


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Napia5 wrote:
I think I can explain my own sense of uneasiness about the upcoming ruling.

When the Hellman decision came out, I was flabbergasted. Everything I read pointed away from a legal, well reasoned, well written report. I understood that Hellman's area of practice was not criminal, but still, this report read more like the pleadings of an aging aunt. (My apologies to aging aunts everywhere. I credit you all with more sense).

The fact that Hellman was not alone, was not the sole decision-maker in this ruling was even more surprising and depressing. When I read it, I kept thinking, how can this be legal? How is this even an opinion based upon law?

If Hellman had written a report of findings based upon 'not beyond a reasonable doubt', or some other basis, while still arguable, it would have at least been somewhat acceptable.

This total fail, in my opinion, this report of senseless, biased garbage, IMO, has created a good deal of unease in my mind that it might just happen again.


It was H&Z that ordered the independent review, and it was them that led the appeal. What good reason would any of the lay judges have had for not following the line instigated by H&Z? Did any of the lay judges do any homework and read the first motivations report?
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Offline smacker


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

One thing that is certain is Cassazione have the first and second motivations reports and a blistering appeal against the second verdict. On top of that, they have the RG files which confirmed more than one person was involved in Meredith's murder. Where else would Cassazione need to look?
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

daisysteiner wrote:
Ok so I posted the above before I had a peek at .org and saw the Narducci case being reopened and the SC has accepted all of Mignini's arguments on this case. Am trying so hard not to get my hopes up but if the SC are accepting Mignini's evidence in the Narducci case then there is a better than average chance for Monday. Meredith might see justice done after all :)


Thanks for bringing over this news about the reopening of the Narducci case, daisy. Andrea Vogt's latest tweet (about an hour ago):

Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt

Quote:
Re #amandaknox questions: Knox case in Cassation Court's 1st Section. Other Perugia case (Narducci) was 3rd Section. Different judges.


https://twitter.com/andreavogt

Still, we are going into Monday with a good feeling in the hope that the Supreme Court sees it the same way in the Meredith Kercher case. r-((
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Hi, guermantes. Yummi's links for the Narducci case are posted upthread.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:29 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Knox, Sollecito won't attend appeals court Monday

Knox in US, Sollecito studying in Verona

(ANSA) - Perugia, March 21 - Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, who were acquitted in a notorious 2007 murder case in the Umbrian city of Perugia, will wait for the verdict Italy's top appeals court is to announce on Monday in the US and in the Northern Italian town of Verona respectively.

Sollecito is currently working on a university-studies related project involving the application of robotics to medical surgery in Verona. Knox will likely be waiting for the outcome of the sentence in Seattle. After having finished his university studies and graduated in jail prior to being released, Sollecito went on to specialize in information technology engineering at the University of Verona, his father Francesco Sollecito told ANSA.

"He is currently working on a project which involves the practical application of his studies," Sollecito senior said. "It relates to the concrete application that permits the movement of instruments during surgery".


ANSA

GAZZETTA DEL SUD
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Amanda Knox Legal Drama Not Quite Over(video)

ABC NEWS
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Spezi does his best to promote his book on obscure blogs, cranking social media engine:

Amanda Knox protagonist of a shocking book

How do you create a witch in the new millennium and how do you dish it out to people? The witch is Amanda Knox, accused with her boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito of the murder, on 1 November 2007, of Meredith Kercher during an orgy of sex, blood and drugs. Four years of suffering in prison and sentenced to 26 years before an acquittal with full formula on appeal.

HER BEAUTY? A DISADVANTAGE. "Amanda was the perfect witch: American, young, beautiful, uninhibited, dissolute, sinful, treacherous, devoted to every vice and every excess, sex, drugs and above all capable of dominating a male, to make him an instrument in her hands. Remember how Giulia Bongiorno, in her speech, called the "male" Raffaele Sollecito? An annex [attachment - i.e., "dog on a leash"] to Amanda," says Mario Spezi, a journalist and writer from Florence who has paid dearly for his investigative reporting on the crimes of the Monster of Florence: 23 days in jail on charges of being one of the instigators of the murders of couples. Then, a year ago, an acquittal [of Knox and Sollecito] of all charges. Now Amanda and Raffaele count the hours that separate them from the last appointment with justice: on March 25 the Court of Cassation will decide. Then they [K&S] will know if they are innocent or if another ordeal begins because the Appeal process will have to be redone.

Amanda seems to have no doubts. For April 30 she has already planned two events: her first exclusive interview for the broadcaster ABC and the launch of her book Waiting to be Heard. But meanwhile, the 'witch' has become the latest literary work of Mario Spezi in Angel with Icy Eyes that, according to Giangavino Sulas, will be published as a book at the end of March, but only in Germany, because Italian publishers declined to print.

SATANIC RITES AND OBSCENE RITUALS. After living through the dramatic experience of the Monster, Spezi with his friend Douglas Preston, American writer also involved in an investigation of crimes of Florence, will not only tell in this book the long history of judicial error committed in the conviction of Amanda and Raffaele but they will demonstrate a disturbing connection between the investigation of the Monster of Florence and the murder of Meredith. Two national investigations were conducted by the prosecutor, Giuliano Mignini: "With the same arguments," write Spezi and Preston. "Obscene rituals, satanic rituals, sex orgies and blood tributes to Satan, as predicted by a "holy woman" [Gabriella Carlizzi] who, with her revelations, has made an important contribution to the magistrate investigating the Monster." "I asked Raffaele Sollecito, and a few days after his acquittal he told me: "I understand very well that my story was only the culmination of Mignini and Perugia investigation on the Monster of Florence "", reveals Spezi. He adds: "Without the background of the Monster it's impossible to fully understand what would happen in Perugia four years later. A background that opened the doors to a new version of an ancient witch hunt."

HEAVY THREATS TO THOSE WHO DEFEND. But how was this "witch Amanda" created? Spezi explains: "With a steady trickle of one-way news that began a few hours after her arrest. Do not forget that four days after the murder prosecutors announced: "The case is closed." Today we know that none of them [Knox & Sollecito] is guilty. But at first instance Raffaele and Amanda were convicted. And public opinion was "guilty". Luckily for them, the Appeal Court's judges requested a new scientific expertise and the result for the prosecution was a tsunami, "All the technical assessments carried out before are not reliable", established the new experts. Despite this, on the evening of acquittal, hundreds of people gathered in front of the Court of Appeals and expressed their disappointment with the judgment shouting "Shame." Evidently they were manipulated by false information. For them, the witch had to end at the stake. All the media gave the maximum emphasis to acquittal but few inquired about why something so serious had happened. Even today in America those who dare to defend Amanda risk their safety. I know something about this because my friend Preston often receives serious threats on his blog."


QOTIDIANAMENTE
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:14 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Amanda Knox waits for sentence appeal
By Nick Squires

Amanda Knox is "anxiously" awaiting a decision by Italy's highest court that could overthrow her acquittal for the murder of Meredith Kercher and order a retrial.

"She is a bit anxious and waiting for the decision, which she knows is important," the American's lawyer, Luciano Ghirga, told Ansa news agency.


THE TELEGRAPH
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Napia5 wrote:
Hi, guermantes. Yummi's links for the Narducci case are posted upthread.


Thanks Napia, but what does the Supreme Court ruling mean exactly (see below)? Sounds like some of the points of Mignini's appeal have been rejected by the SC. Hopefully Yummi will be able to explain it to us on the weekend.

Quote:
The 3 / a penal section thus partially upheld the appeal of the Prosecutor of Perugia and Narducci’s widow against the judgment of acquittal by GUP of 20 April 2010: no prescription for some crimes but annulled with reference to other charges against the defendants, more than twenty in total, involved in various ways. Now the preliminary hearing judge will review the case.

VERSION OF DEFENCE - The Supreme Court has rejected the appeal of the Prosecutor of Perugia against the acquittal on the charge of conspiracy which has been leveled against the father of Francesco Narducci and five other people. Making final the acquittal pronounced by GUP with the formula "'cause did not exist." It was reported by the defender of the doctor’s family, the lawyer Francesco Falcinelli.

According to the lawyer, criminal association "was the cornerstone of the trial, on which the prosecution’s investigation was focused" and it was among other things the possibility of the so-called double-body swap. Against the acquittal of the accused had also appealed the widow of Francesco Narducci, a civil party. "I am satisfied - said the lawyer Falcinelli – by the Supreme Court judgment that reiterated the absence of criminal association, thus permanently rejecting any inference. “Francesco Narducci - he concluded - died of a suicide. "


FIRENZE TODAY

huh-)
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:13 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

FBN has written another outstanding piece about the history of and recent developments in DNA testing:

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Hi Daisy,

What I wrote wasn't guessing, more like being careful, what I said is the result of having studied the Italian Penal Code since Meredith's murder, but I'm not fluent in Italian, however I do know a bit about Italian law.

Here is the link to the code, in Italian: http://www.altalex.com/index.php?idnot=36653

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
If in the Supreme Court, they decide that the laws and rules of it have not been complied with, it would mean that the appeal was unfair, in this case, obviously to the prosecution. For the Supreme Court to rule that not only the appeal was not executed according to law but that the first trial was incorrect too for not complying with all of the rules and law, would be a very far stretch, considering, unlike Hellmann, the other judges clearly defined every single point and underpinned all of those steps and points with clear references to the law and when not specifically pointing out the numbers and codes of the laws, the specific definitions and descriptions were all so clear that to a trained person it would be easy to see where and what these judgments were based on.

Hellmann, he looked like he showed up to help the cook wash up and used a dirty dish cloth, in a rush to get home to go to the disco, yes, an old man.
So he did not clean the floors properly, nor the sink or stove, in fact, he sprayed air freshener around and did sweet fuck all, then pissed off home.

Don't thank me for my academic summing up, after all, it was inspired by the most brilliant washer upper... Hellmann; he left the forks dirty and ignored the knife lying there!!!

If then the appeal was not fair it in no way means the first trial in which K and S were found guilty is nullified, it means that the prosecution gets to have an appeal, again, and one that Knox and Sollecito of course are not calling for.

Now I thnk more about it Daisy, indeed I'm not sure that the appeal could be overturned and them immediately reimprisoned, however, the Supreme Court has power over ALL of the preceding court rulings.

They could say that an appeal as lodged by the defence should not have been granted, on the points they used to lodge it.

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Last edited by zorba on Sat Mar 23, 2013 5:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:29 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Note
Just a Note.
~ I just read a post on I-A from Leila Shneps (co-author of Maths On Trial) aka 'Thoughtful' that her mother was due for heart surgery. Sorry to hear about that, hope for the best for her recovery. Family comes first and health comes first.
And regardless of the outcome on Monday, I would like to express my respect for the Kerchers, and hope that for them, justice will be served.
~
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 5:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Nick Pisa has written an article about the Supreme Court hearing on Monday for The Daily Mail:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... eT1nyJWjlo

He's included comments from Luciano Ghirga and Sollecito's father. There are no comments from anyone who thinks Knox and Sollecito are guilty.
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Offline tamale


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 5:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

I listened to the 2 phone calls to police via Raff from cottage. I wonder why there was a 2 hour recording of Sabrina Massarri (sp) at the end of the first call. Did anyone else get that too?
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Offline louiehaha


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

According to Sollecito's facebook page, he's in London.

What was that bible quote the FOA always quotes to 'prove' Guede's guilt? Wasn't it "the wicked flee when no man pursues"?

Apparently, he's not as serene and focused on his studies as his father claimed.



http://t.co/VZBaQB2hWM
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:41 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

The Machine wrote:
Nick Pisa has written an article about the Supreme Court hearing on Monday for The Daily Mail:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... eT1nyJWjlo

He's included comments from Luciano Ghirga and Sollecito's father. There are no comments from anyone who thinks Knox and Sollecito are guilty.



In my view, anyone who writes for the Daily Heil deserves no respect, cannot be seen as a reliable source; I do not like Pisa one bit.

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Offline malvern


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:21 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

These last few days must be so difficult for the Kerchers. I wish for them the confidence to know they have done all they could for their child. I hope that knowledge will bring them a sense of calm knowing they stood by her and pushed forward for the truth. In the end that is what will give them strength and peace. As her loving family they have honored her, this is whats really important.
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Offline tamale


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:42 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

malvern wrote:
These last few days must be so difficult for the Kerchers. I wish for them the confidence to know they have done all they could for their child. I hope that knowledge will bring them a sense of calm knowing they stood by her and pushed forward for the truth. In the end that is what will give them strength and peace. As her loving family they have honored her, this is whats really important.


The Kerchers have shown strength in their painful journey, showing class and dignity, even when abused by lesser beings. May peace be with them.
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Offline Pelerine


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:41 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

louiehaha wrote:
According to Sollecito's facebook page, he's in London.

What was that bible quote the FOA always quotes to 'prove' Guede's guilt? Wasn't it "the wicked flee when no man pursues"?

Apparently, he's not as serene and focused on his studies as his father claimed.



http://t.co/VZBaQB2hWM



What a f**ing man!! London!! of all the places he is in >London!!
ff)
I dearly hope that the Kercher family knows nothing about.

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r-(( Rest in Peace Meredith Kercher r-((
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

zorba wrote:
The Machine wrote:
Nick Pisa has written an article about the Supreme Court hearing on Monday for The Daily Mail:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... eT1nyJWjlo

He's included comments from Luciano Ghirga and Sollecito's father. There are no comments from anyone who thinks Knox and Sollecito are guilty.



In my view, anyone who writes for the Daily Heil deserves no respect, cannot be seen as a reliable source; I do not like Pisa one bit.


Many of the FOA press releases which were dressed up as news articles appeared in The Guardian and The Independent.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

The Machine wrote:
zorba wrote:
The Machine wrote:
Nick Pisa has written an article about the Supreme Court hearing on Monday for The Daily Mail:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... eT1nyJWjlo

He's included comments from Luciano Ghirga and Sollecito's father. There are no comments from anyone who thinks Knox and Sollecito are guilty.



In my view, anyone who writes for the Daily Heil deserves no respect, cannot be seen as a reliable source; I do not like Pisa one bit.


Many of the FOA press releases which were dressed up as news articles appeared in The Guardian and The Independent.



Yes, and this particular piece of crap he wrote, was entirely void of actual factual content, he avoids any kind of articulation.

My idea is he very much enjoys his privileged, well-paid little position in Italy and will write anything to keep his clients happy.

That is ALL.

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Last edited by zorba on Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

louiehaha wrote:
According to Sollecito's facebook page, he's in London.

What was that bible quote the FOA always quotes to 'prove' Guede's guilt? Wasn't it "the wicked flee when no man pursues"?

Apparently, he's not as serene and focused on his studies as his father claimed.



I looked.

Yes, of all places, he sure has got a lot of nerve, shameless B.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Andrea Vogt delivers some background and context, as well as important details about Monday's cassation hearing. An excellent article (a must read!)

Tweeted by Andrea Vogt:

Quote:
A primer on the #amandaknox Cassation case, judges and sideshows in #Italy. http://thefreelancedesk.com/?p=1091


High Court To Rule On Meredith Kercher Case

THE COURT HEARING

Court of Cassation will be in session at 10 a.m. Monday, with the Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito case expected to come before judges in late morning, and a ruling not expected until late evening. Neither is expected to attend. Members of the Kercher family may be present.
...

THE JUDGES INVOLVED

Cassation Judges in Rome

I’ve chosen to not name the magistrates involved in the case until the hearing opens Monday, but for those following closely, here is some brief background on the key judges, based on information I have gleaned from Ministry of Justice documents and “bolletino ufficiale” or public bulletins required to publicly announce personnel changes and events in the judiciary.

The presiding judge is a 72-year old magistrate originally from Naples. Over the years he has dealt with some of Italy’s most high profile crime cases, including the Sarah Scazzi case, as well as the Cassation’s 16-year prison sentence confirmation to Anna Maria Franzoni in the “delitto di Cogne,” the first high-profile case to divide Italy among innocentisti and colpevolisti lines. According to Ministry of Justice documents, the relatrice in the Amanda Knox case is 57-year old female magistrate from Turin. The procurator general is the figure who has a prosecutor-like function and who presents the case to the panel and suggests what decision should be taken. In this case, the PG is married with two children, has been a judge since 1979 and worked for over two decades in Naples, including several years at the court of appeals there. He is known for his hard line against the clans of the Camorra. Dr. Giovanni Galati, the Perugia procurator-general leading the recourse of the appeal’s court acquittal ruling is also no stranger to high-profile cases, having worked in the 1980s on the case of Roberto Calvi, the Italian banker murdered and found hanging from Blackfriars Bridge in London in June, 1982.


http://thefreelancedesk.com/?p=1091
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Sharlene Martin doesn't know what life holds in store for her client, but has hopes.

Martin Literary Mgmt ‏@martinliterary 37 min ago

Quote:
Tomorrow the Italian Supreme CT will hopefully uphold the acquittal of Raffaele Sollecito (my client) and Amanda Knox. Pray this travesty [is over]…


Martin Literary Mgmt Martin Literary Mgmt ‏@martinliterary 22 Mar

Quote:
Praying this travesty is over for my client, Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox. Monday the Italian Supreme Court hears the final presentation...


https://twitter.com/martinliterary
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

My stomach is in knots for tomorrow. Torn between hope and my feeling. I won't say any more than that.

Except to say...that my thoughts are with the Kercher family. The hell they have gone through..and how they must be feeling. I'm wishing with every fibre of my being for an outcome that will give them a modicum of peace. p-)) r-((

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Offline Itchy Brother


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

louiehaha wrote:
According to Sollecito's facebook page, he's in London.

What was that bible quote the FOA always quotes to 'prove' Guede's guilt? Wasn't it "the wicked flee when no man pursues"?

Apparently, he's not as serene and focused on his studies as his father claimed.



http://t.co/VZBaQB2hWM


Is this the behavior one would expect from a man who was wrongfully imprisoned for a friend's brutal murder? A man who should be more sensitive than most to loss suffered by that friend's family?

To my eyes it looks like the behavior one might expect from a criminal who is confident that he has successfully escaped justice. Someone filled with hubris. Mission Accomplished!
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:32 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Itchy Brother wrote:
louiehaha wrote:
According to Sollecito's facebook page, he's in London.

What was that bible quote the FOA always quotes to 'prove' Guede's guilt? Wasn't it "the wicked flee when no man pursues"?

Apparently, he's not as serene and focused on his studies as his father claimed.




Is this the behavior one would expect from a man who was wrongfully imprisoned for a friend's brutal murder? A man who should be more sensitive than most to loss suffered by that friend's family?

To my eyes it looks like the behavior one might expect from a criminal who is confident that he has successfully escaped justice. Someone filled with hubris. Mission Accomplished!



He is one creepy fuck and I can't put it more politely.
I can easily imagine him going and looking where Meredith lived, and I easily did imagine, upon hearing he'd been in Perugia, him going to the cottage; in my eyes he is a morbid, horrible, weird man.

If you listen to him telling the policeman that Meredith is not there, the way he says it is really awful, the sound of his voice, because it makes no sense for him to be saying that about Meredith, especially in that particular tone of voice.

Think it is a pity that even Andrea gets things wrong, like now on her page, saying it is about Knox, yes it is, no only her though, what about Sollecito. If people refer to it as Knox, Knox, Knox, that's why she gained a certain kind of power, it's wrong to refer only to her.

If they get off, to me they will always be guilty, no matter what.

His behaviour gives me the idea he somehow gets a kick out of putting on this act and in his mind it is like showing: Hey see me, here I am having so much fun in America, look everyone likes and loves me, hey I'm at a place renowned for acid, and hey, look, I'm clean, me Mr Joint-the-I-don't-remember-a-thing-guy-REMEMBUH???, well then, hey, look, New York, and hey, here I am in London.

It's like he is mocking the entire process.
I really get the feeling he is a danger to society.

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Last edited by zorba on Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:25 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Hmmm. Checked out Raf's pics. He says he's back in Italy. Also..He * deeply loves the sun *. Someone invites him to his parents condo in Palm Springs..and mentions Steve Moore has a condo nearby. Whoo Hoo.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:11 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

capealadin wrote:
Hmmm. Checked out Raf's pics. He says he's back in Italy. Also..He * deeply loves the sun *. Someone invites him to his parents condo in Palm Springs..and mentions Steve Moore has a condo nearby. Whoo Hoo.



Yes, I wonder Cape, if he was really there in London when he said he was, or is he creating a false trail? You can never know how afraid he is; he may have thought, if it goes wrong, they may say there's a danger of me fleeing the country so they may restrict my ability / right to travel, or they may imprison me, to keep me from fleeing. Or, if the appeal is overturned, he might get recalled to prison, after all the court found him guilty, and if the appeal is undone then where he was, is in prison,
so,
I'm thinking that was where they'd have a right to send him again, awaiting the new appeal.

With all of this in his mind, he may have decided to go on the run in advance and obviously, his support is the Knox, what I would call... PR Mafia, so he would try to enter America as quietly as possible then lie low. This all in order not to be within the grasp of Italian police and justice so that he can see what they do and I imagine if it were all to go against them, he is not prepared to pay, so for all anyone knows he might be in some country that has no extradition treaty, the photo of him in London doesn't show him stood there with a fresh copy of THE TIMES in his hand... he could be anywhere, just like the situation with his comrade the multiple violent abuse / assault artist, nobody knows where he is except those who do not believe in the law, not believing in the law, obviously; to harbour someone who is wanted by the law is a criminal offence, in Italy and America (and everywhere else).

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Last edited by zorba on Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline ttrroonniicc


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:09 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

zorba wrote:
The Machine wrote:
Nick Pisa has written an article about the Supreme Court hearing on Monday for The Daily Mail:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... eT1nyJWjlo

He's included comments from Luciano Ghirga and Sollecito's father. There are no comments from anyone who thinks Knox and Sollecito are guilty.



In my view, anyone who writes for the Daily Heil deserves no respect, cannot be seen as a reliable source; I do not like Pisa one bit.

Nick Pisa of the Daily Mail fabricates his stories. His report 'from Perugia', when Knox was released. He was nowhere near Perugia.



But what is more significant is that we know this article was prepared in advance of an event that no-one at the Daily Mail could possibly have witnessed… which means that Nick Pisa and the relevant editing staff at the Daily Mail were prepared to print the following eyewitness accounts as if they were genuine, when everyone involved with preparing this article must have known that they described events that had yet to happen:

“Amanda Knox looked stunned this evening after she dramatically lost her prison appeal against her murder conviction….”

and

“As Knox realized the enormity of what judge Hellman was saying she sank into her chair sobbing uncontrollably while her family and friends hugged each other in tears.”

and

“A few feet away Meredith’s mother Arline, her sister Stephanie and brother Lyle, who had flown in especially for the verdict remained expressionless, staring straight ahead, glancing over just once at the distraught Knox family.”

In the same article, the Daily Mail of all papers has the temerity to sniff at the “media circus” around the trial; one caption even labels them ’scum’. But I can only see one ‘news’ paper inventing reactions from the prosecution following an event that never happened:

“Prosecutors were delighted with the verdict and said that ‘justice has been done’ although they said on a ‘human factor it was sad two young people would be spending years in jail.'”

The Daily Mail even give a full account of events that didn’t follow the event that didn’t happen:

“Following the verdict Knox and Sollecito were taken out of court escorted by prison guards and into a waiting van which took her back to her cell at Capanne jail near Perugia and him to Terni jail, 60 miles away.”

This is a clear-cut case of entirely invented detail that cannot be explained away as part of any standard verdict-preparedness process. In fact, it goes well beyond the ‘X actually said this to my face’ antics of Johann Hari, but I doubt very much if we will see Nick Pisa admitting to any wrongdoing or offering to attend journalism school anytime soon.

Source: http://www.mailwatch.co.uk/2011/10/03/invented-eyewitness-accounts/
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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:00 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

According to AP, Francesco Maresca and Sollecito's father were seen at the court this morning.

http://bostonherald.com/news_opinion/in ... hest_court
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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:15 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

The Kercher family will follow the events from London.

And: AK texted Ghirga on Saturday that "I hope that this story will end soon and all goes well."

http://www.ilmessaggero.it/PRIMOPIANO/C ... 0651.shtml
Lunedì 25 Marzo 2013 - 08:42
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:19 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Yeah Trooooon,

There is a group of those people, like ones from Britain to start with, who obviously prefer the warm Italian climes, and enjoy the lifestyle, convenient having a non-9 to 5 job, a well-paid job, one that you just jot down a few lines for now and then (I mean they are not dug in with the troops on some front line are they), really, each one was actually more useless and untalented than the preceding non-entity, Popham, Pisa, in fact I cannot recall one that made my eyes pop open with wow, this cat really does have a more in-depth grasp of matters at all levels than any of the rest, none of them, not one has demonstrated such an ability, each one knows the structures of the written word but has sweet fuck all to say of any real value, they just go though the motions, and it is more like it is all about themselves, their ego-tripping journalistic status qou, dinner party position, OH, FOR ROBERT HERE IS A JOURNALIST; YES, YES, THAT AM I, FOR I AM A JOURNALIST, erhum, erhum!!!

The above excluding Andrea and Barbie.

... and then coughing onto the backside of the clenched fist and polishing it against the brazen-hearted mediocre, full of thyself chest cavity.

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Last edited by zorba on Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:19 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

#
Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 43m
#amandaknox discussions starting now in cassation court in Rome. Judge Caprioglio is summarizing the case.


#
Andrea Vogt Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 1h
Avv. Maresca flanked by his "maestro" Avv. Fabbiani, w/Avv. Perna in wings. Def attys same. Outcome "unpredictable" say all.#amandaknox
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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:25 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Barbie Latza Nadeau ‏@BLNadeau 1h
Coming back to a #knox trial is like stepping back in time.. Or attending dysfunctional family reunion..
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

More tweets from Andrea Vogt:

Andrea Vogt wrote:
andreavogt
#amandaknox discussions starting now in cassation court in Rome. Judge Caprioglio is summarizing the case.


Andrea Vogt wrote:
andreavogt
Procuratore Generale Riello now taking the floor in #amandaknox case, after a 90-minute review of all the arguments.
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ava wrote:
According to AP, Francesco Maresca and Sollecito's father were seen at the court this morning.

http://bostonherald.com/news_opinion/in ... hest_court


According to the article Dr. Sollecito is present while Raffaele Sollecito is not. How odd.
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Andrea Vogt wrote:
Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 7m

PG Riello: I believe the judges lost their way. There are elements that were absolutely not taken into consideration.#amandaknox
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Andrea Vogt wrote:
Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 1m

PG read from Guede's letter blaming Sollecito and #amandaknox. Says "strange" that court believed some Guede statements and not others.
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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Nell wrote:
Ava wrote:
According to AP, Francesco Maresca and Sollecito's father were seen at the court this morning.

http://bostonherald.com/news_opinion/in ... hest_court


According to the article Dr. Sollecito is present while Raffaele Sollecito is not. How odd.



He's a controller. I really hope water won't flow uphill this time.
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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:38 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 3m
PG read from Guede's letter blaming Sollecito and #amandaknox. Says "strange" that court believed some Guede statements and not others.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Andrea Vogt wrote:
Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 43s

The president just curtly asked PG Riello to get on with it, not go into details heard already in first instance and appeal.#amandaknox
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Il Giornale di Umbria has a live coverage of the proceedings as well:

Processo Meredith, è cominciata l'udienza in Cassazione

You can find the Google translation for the article here
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ava wrote:
Barbie Latza Nadeau ‏@BLNadeau 1h
Coming back to a #knox trial is like stepping back in time.. Or attending dysfunctional family reunion..



Barbie would not want to be referred to as obsessed, so she really ought not return to it, I really do not appreciate her referring to peopple who are simply upstanding citizens who disagreee with murderers getting off scott free and do not agree that the pair are innocent, it is in no way obsession it is support, no matter how large or small, for Meredith's family, on this count, though I like Barbie, she needs to wash her mouth out with soap and water, if she cannot report properly then F" OFF.

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Last edited by zorba on Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ava wrote:
The Kercher family will follow the events from London.

And: AK texted Ghirga on Saturday that "I hope that this story will end soon and all goes well."

http://www.ilmessaggero.it/PRIMOPIANO/C ... 0651.shtml
Lunedì 25 Marzo 2013 - 08:42



Thank you for the tweets Ava and Nell. I am so glad to see that the Kerchers are remaining at home. May God be with them all today.
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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

From Nell's link:

Hours 13 - Caprioglio completed his introductory report. Now the word is passed to Louis Riello Pg. Riello said in his speech that the conviction of Amanda Knox for slander has nothing to do with her acquittal.
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Andrea Vogt wrote:
Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 1m

PG Riello has concluded, asking that acquittals be anulled and an appeal retrial be set. Half hour break in #amandaknox hearing.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Barbie Nadeau earlier reported that the Supreme Court's decision could be published today between 10pm and midnight or alternatively tomorrow.
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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

zorba wrote:
Ava wrote:
Barbie Latza Nadeau ‏@BLNadeau 1h
Coming back to a #knox trial is like stepping back in time.. Or attending dysfunctional family reunion..



Barbie would not want to be referred to as pobsessed, so she really ought not return to it, I really do not sapprteciate her referringto peopple who are soimply upstandingh citizens who disagreee with murderers getting off scott free and do not agree that the paoir are oinnocent, it is in no way obsession it is support, no matter how large or small, for Meredit´hs family, on this count, though I like Barbioe, she needs to wash her motuth out wioth soap and water, if she cannot report properly then F" OFF.



I didn't read it that way, zorba, to me "dysfunctional" applies to AK, RS and families and their behavior.
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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 8m
PG Riello has concluded, asking that acquittals be anulled and an appeal retrial be set. Half hour break in #amandaknox hearing.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ava wrote:
zorba wrote:
Ava wrote:
Barbie Latza Nadeau ‏@BLNadeau 1h
Coming back to a #knox trial is like stepping back in time.. Or attending dysfunctional family reunion..



Barbie would not want to be referred to as pobsessed, so she really ought not return to it, I really do not sapprteciate her referringto peopple who are soimply upstandingh citizens who disagreee with murderers getting off scott free and do not agree that the paoir are oinnocent, it is in no way obsession it is support, no matter how large or small, for Meredit´hs family, on this count, though I like Barbioe, she needs to wash her motuth out wioth soap and water, if she cannot report properly then F" OFF.



I didn't read it that way, zorba, to me "dysfunctional" applies to AK, RS and families and their behavior.


Hi Ava and Zorba,

Even though there is no doubt in my mind that the families of the accused are more or less dysfunctional, I believe Barbie's reference is made to the Italian justice system in general and not to the families.
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

The court hearing should resume shortly.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

From a story published by Associated Press:

Amanda Knox was "very anxious" as Italy's top criminal court heard arguments Monday from prosecutors appealing her acquittal in the murder of her roommate, her lawyer said.

"She's carefully paying attention to what will come out," attorney Luciano Ghirga said as he arrived at Italy's Court of Cassation. "This is a fundamental stage. The trial is very complex."

Prosecutors are asking the high court to throw out the acquittals of American Knox and her Italian ex-boyfriend in the murder of 21-year-old British student Meredith Kercher, and order a new trial.
...
In the second and final level of appeal, prosecutors are now seeking to overturn the acquittals, while defense attorneys say they should stand.

"We're here to defend that sentence," said Sollecito's attorney, Giulia Bongiorno, who called the entire case "an absurd judicial process."

Monday's hearing began with one of the judges reading a summary of the gruesome case, including how Kercher essentially choked on her own blood from the stab wound. Neither Knox nor Sollecito was in court, though Sollecito's father attended.

If the court does throw out the acquittal and orders a retrial, Knox wouldn't have to return to Italy, as there is no requirement for defendants to be in court.

Defense attorneys said they were confident the acquittals would be upheld. "We know Raffaele Sollecito is innocent," Bongiorno said.

A verdict could come later Monday.


AP
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Andrea Vogt wrote:
Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 58s

Cassation back in session in #amandaknox case, w/ Kercher Atty F. Maresca asking why there wasn't a full review all forensic evidence.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

A little bit more on PG's request.

PG's Request: Condemn/Convict Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito

Convict Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: this is the meaning of the request made ​​by the Prosecutor General of the Supreme Court, Luigi Riello, re the appellate decision that acquitted the two youths. The appeal was made in the indictment in the Supreme Court.

Riello said in the second trial for the murder of Meredith Kercher "the trial court has lost its compass." "The judgment of the Court of Appeal of Perugia is a rare combination of violations of law and logic and I think it must be undone."

The Prosecutor has accused the college of judges of the second degree of "shattering the circumstantial evidence." Riello spoke of a "fair amount of snobbery" of the judges of appeal "in trivializing" the sentence at first instance and "reducing it to four reasons." He then called the slander of Patrick Lumumba the "key point" .

Riello asked not "to close the curtain on this shocking and serious crime making Rudy Guede solely responsible" who "seems to have committed this crime with the ectoplasm" [?].

The PG defended the science: "To impute all these bungling of science [by the scientists] which/who are not brigadiers, playing at a chemistry set, but a highly specialized department, with all due respect, it is not reasonable." He recalled that the same experts of appeal have ruled that contamination has taken place in the laboratory. Riello added that genetic tests were performed with the guarantees of unrepeatable tests, "quite similar to the experts."


BLITZ QUOTIDIANO
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ava wrote:
Nell wrote:
Ava wrote:
According to AP, Francesco Maresca and Sollecito's father were seen at the court this morning.

http://bostonherald.com/news_opinion/in ... hest_court


According to the article Dr. Sollecito is present while Raffaele Sollecito is not. How odd.



He's a controller. I really hope water won't flow uphill this time.


I find it remarkable how Raffaele Sollecito seems almost uninterested in the Supreme Court hearing even though the court's decision could ultimately have a huge impact on his life.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Quote:
Google Translation

Meredith murder
Pg of the Supreme Court
«Cancel judgment '
ROME - "The judgment of the Court of Appeal of Perugia" which acquitted Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito "is a rare concentration of violations of law and logic and believe it should be canceled." Thus, the Court of Cassation Pg Luigi Riello at the end of the indictment, which lasted over half an hour.

"I think - added pg of Cassation - that all the conditions why not drop the final curtain on this shocking crime and serious of which is solely responsible for the criminal lombrosianamente Rudy Guede" and "he seems to have committed this crime with of ectoplasm. "

"In this process, the trial court has lost its compass." According to the college pg of the second degree has "shattered the circumstantial evidence," talking about their "fragmentation."
Riello then spoke of a "fair amount of snobbery" of the appellate judges "in trivialize" the sentence at first instance "reducing it to four reasons." He then called the "key point" slander of Knox Patrick Lumumba.


Puglia - La Gazzetta del Mezzogiorno.it: Omicidio Meredith - Pg della Cassazione: «Annullare sentenza»
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:29 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

There is an excellent primer written by Andrea Vogt about the possible outcomes of the Supreme Court hearing. This article might have already been posted in my absence: Andrea Vogt at The Freelance Desk: High Court to Hear Meredith Kercher Case
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:29 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Andrea Vogt wrote:
Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 1m

Giulia Bongiorno has begun def arguments in #amandaknox case: "raff sollecito went to jail for a shoeprint that belonged to Rudy Guede."
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Still Riello, but it's interesting:

14:45 pm "I find in many passages in the judgment of the second degree a kind of anthropological immunity of the accused." This was underlined by the Supreme Court pg Riello Luigi in his submissions in the trial of Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox acquitted in the second degree for the murder of British student Meredith Kercher. In its judgment, Riello said, "speaking of the accused as the good guys involved in the studies. And 'as if the crime had been committed by Rudy Guede only underdog. "Pg retracing the steps of the judgment of the Court of Assizes of Perugia has also emphasized that "the genetic expertise was conceived as a tombstone but in reality it is not, and even if it was buried clues that would have instead their vitality. "Kicking off the pg had premised as "this is not the place to retrace the process of credit for the murder of Meredith, inviting, however, not to have a vision of aristocratic judgment of legitimacy" deputy to the Supreme Court and therefore "not to amputate the jurisdiction of final union. "Riello has finally recalled the words of Peter Calamandrei that the reasoning "is the greatest guarantee of justice that you can have."


http://www.giornaledellumbria.it/articl ... 88548.html
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ted Simon is making some noise against PG's indictment (very hard to listen to, not for those with week nerves). He even raised his voice above its natural decibel level somewhere around 1 min mark.

Knox attorney Ted Simon 'hopeful' Knox's not guilty verdict will remain after hearing (video)

This morning on "Starting Point," Knox attorney Ted Simon explains the hearing procedure, how the Knox family is coping and what the next steps are in Amanda's case.

CNN
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ava wrote:
[quote="zorba]

.[/quote]


I didn't read it that way, zorba, to me "dysfunctional" applies to AK, RS and families and their behavior.[/quote][/quote]


I did and do read it that way for a reason Ava,

In the past, after writing a book on the case herself, she accused people who follow the case of being obsessed, now talking about how it reminds her of a family thing, is not nice, because it shows that she is not acting professionally, if she starts commenting on things like that, this is my opinion since I´m not interested in her take on what she interprets the Supreme Court hearing for Meredith´s murder, it is not about her humour, as it is not funny, therefore, to me, it is inappropriate to start on about crap like it reminds her of a dysfunctional family reunion, I find that totally out of place and disrespectful, in that she. by saying things like this. shows she does not take the gravity of the matter totally seriously, right now of all times: If she is not interested seriously, in being there, then she ought not be there.

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Last edited by zorba on Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Amanda Knox may be retried in Italy (video)

Italy's highest court will decide if Amanda Knox will face another murder trial. CBS News legal analyst Jack Ford talks to Charlie Rose and Gayle King about what could happen next.


CBS THIS MORNING
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Again, I think you´ve read that incorrectly because none of those named by you are in attendance only dad Sollecito, so it refers to the lawyers and the General Prosecutors.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Amanda Knox lawyer confident before Italian appeal ruling

Both Knox's lawyer Luciano Ghirga and Sollecito's lawyer Giulia Bongiorno said they were confident the 2011 verdict clearing their clients would be upheld by the court, which will rule only on procedural issues, not on questions of merit.

"There seems to be very little criticism of the technical aspects of the trial," said Ghirga.

Prosecutors last year filed a motion to appeal against the acquittal, calling it "contradictory and illogical".

However, Bongiorno said there was little room for the decision to be challenged.

"We have a verdict behind us that is so well-grounded, coherent and logical that we're very calm," she said as she entered the court.


REUTERS
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

guermantes wrote:
Ted Simon is making some noise against PG's indictment (very hard to listen to, not for those with week nerves). He even raised his voice above its natural decibel level somewhere around 1 min mark.

Knox attorney Ted Simon 'hopeful' Knox's not guilty verdict will remain after hearing (video)

This morning on "Starting Point," Knox attorney Ted Simon explains the hearing procedure, how the Knox family is coping and what the next steps are in Amanda's case.

CNN


Definitely not for the faint of heart. Interesting how Ted Simon avoids to give a straight answer when asked if Amanda Knox would go back to Italy to stand trial in case the Supreme Court decides to cancel the acquittal.

[2:30]
Question: "Hey Ted, there is a dicey legal issue here: The Supreme Court rules against Amanda on this appeal. Then the issue becomes will the U.S. extradite her to Italy, uh ... to serve time again? How likely do you think that is?"

Ted Simon: "Well, the real question we have today and the only question before us is the review of the Supreme Court and their narrow scope of review ... uh ... of what the Appellate Court jury did. And that is the only matter ... and that is the only matter ... that we are really focused on. So we are certainly hopeful and prayerful ... uh ... that the Supreme Court will realise that the Appellate Court jury acted well within its bounds and correctly determined she was wrongly convicted. I mean the Appellate Court jury ..."

Question: "But Ted, Ted, Ted, Ted. Yes or no? Would she go back to Italy to stand ... would she go back again to Italy to stand trial?"

Ted Simon: "I ... I ... I ... This is ... The only way I can answer this question is that ... Amanda and her family have abided by all the law, rules and regulations and the rule of law ... and I think what's very important here is that the appellate court jury brightly illuminated the wrongfulness of the conviction. And that is simply what is before the Supreme Court."
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Andrea Vogt wrote:
Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 1m

#Bongiorno just pointed out a factual error in the PG's #amandaknox arguments. Judges listening. She's a very good orator.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Nell wrote:
Ava wrote:
zorba wrote:
Ava wrote:
Barbie Latza Nadeau ‏@BLNadeau 1h
Coming back to a #knox trial is like stepping back in time.. Or attending dysfunctional family reunion..



Barbie would not want to be referred to as obsessed, so she really ought not return to it, I really do not appreciate her referring to people who are simply upstanding citizens who disagreee with murderers getting off scott free and do not agree that the pair are innocent, as obsessed, it is in no way obsession it is support, no matter how large or small, for Meredith's family, on this count, though I like Barbie, she needs to wash her mouth out with soap and water, if she cannot report properly then F" OFF.



I didn't read it that way, zorba, to me "dysfunctional" applies to AK, RS and families and their behavior.


Hi Ava and Zorba,

Even though there is no doubt in my mind that the families of the accused are more or less dysfunctional, I believe Barbie's reference is made to the Italian justice system in general and not to the families.



HI Nell, yes, I agree, that's what I'm certain she was referring to, I still like Barbie but I lost a certain amount of respect for her on the basis of a couple of things 1/ Allowing herself to be influenced by Pisa and 2/ dining at the same table as him, an obvious journalistic opportunist, one lacking integrity, and her saying things about people being obsessed, her superficial dumb comment now, is entirely a setting forth of her tired line of they are obsessed, yeah sure and you wrote a book about it so who are you, etc, etc.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

zorba wrote:
HI Nell, yes, I agree, that´s what I´m certain she was referring to, I stil like Barbie but I lost a certain amount of respect for hewrt on the basis of a couple of things 1/ Allowing herself to be influenced by Pisa and 2/ dining at the same table as him, an obvious journalistic opportunist, one lacking integrity, and her saying things about people being obsessed, her superficial dumb comment now, is entirely a setting forth of her tired line of they are obsessed, yeah sure and you wrote a book about it so who are you, etc, etc.


I agree with everything you wrote. Andrea Vogt's articles were far more objective and informative in comparison, but unfortunately she didn't write as many articles as Barbie did. I felt that the bullying Barbie Nadeau was subjected to early on in the case somehow left a mark.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Nell wrote:
zorba wrote:
HI Nell, yes, I agree, that´s what I´m certain she was referring to, I stil like Barbie but I lost a certain amount of respect for hewrt on the basis of a couple of things 1/ Allowing herself to be influenced by Pisa and 2/ dining at the same table as him, an obvious journalistic opportunist, one lacking integrity, and her saying things about people being obsessed, her superficial dumb comment now, is entirely a setting forth of her tired line of they are obsessed, yeah sure and you wrote a book about it so who are you, etc, etc.


I agree with everything you wrote. Andrea Vogt's articles were far more objective and informative in comparison, but unfortunately she didn't write as many articles as Barbie did. I felt that the bullying Barbie Nadeau was subjected to early on in the case somehow left a mark.



Hi Nell,

Yes and I still do value Barbie, and I also do trust her but she needs someone to tell her to leave those kind of remarks out, god knows how many threatening mails she received, and I´m still someone who will stick up for her, bit that comment about obsessed really pissed me off.

I hope I'm not too hard on her, I'm just fair and talk straight when I need to of all the reporters, she reported things that seemed forbidden in the rest of America.

I ought to be directing my anger towards that little beady eyed BonGiorno, I do not like her, she looks like Sollecito's twin, and... I'm certain she knows the truth, which is not what she speaks.

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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

zorba wrote:
Again, I think you´ve read that incorrectly because none of those named by you are in attendance only dad Sollecito, so it refers to the lawyers and the General Prosecutors.


I see where you are coming from, and the tone she uses is probably inappropriate, but I still think she might also refer to past trials ("stepping back in time") where AK and her family were present, even very present at times.
As for her remark on "obsessed followers" or sth like that, I found that insensitive as well. Those people are her readers.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Andrea Vogt wrote:
Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 56s

C. Dalla Vedova urges Cassation to uphold #amandaknox acquittals and overturn slander: "This girl was stressed, confused, pressured."
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ava wrote:
zorba wrote:
Again, I think you´ve read that incorrectly because none of those named by you are in attendance only dad Sollecito, so it refers to the lawyers and the General Prosecutors.


I see where you are coming from, and the tone she uses is probably inappropriate, but I still think she might also refer to past trials ("stepping back in time") where AK and her family were present, even very present at times.
As for her remark on "obsessed followers" or sth like that, I found that insensitive as well. Those people are her readers.



Right, I do know that reporters and journalists are under pressure, to churn out reports on a daily basis but seeing as how she did get involved to the extent she did, by writing about it a lot, I thought it was a cop out to start speaking in terms of obesssed, that was just not nice, I see her more as naive, as I find her a very pleasant person.

Right now, can hardly stomach anymore, I pray that they overturn the appeal, in the name of justice, I hope that these judges can see past the veils, it is they who are being insulted, as the PR Knox campaign has made a mockery of Italian Justice and Italian people and Italian professionals and likewise, Sollecito stands for the same lies.

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Last edited by zorba on Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

I am on vacation, but I can't miss this of course. Hoping for justice for Meredith Kercher. I understand the decision will probably be later tonight (Italian time)?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

max wrote:
I am on vacation, but I can't miss this of course. Hoping for justice for Meredith Kercher. I understand the decision will probably be later tonight (Italian time)?


Barbie Nadeau tweeted earlier that the Supreme Court's decision was expected between 10 pm and midnight, or maybe tomorrow.

I just hope it's the right decision.
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Offline ttrroonniicc


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Problem with the board? Looks like I just answered myself (I didn't).
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Amanda Knox Should Be Tried Again for Murder, Prosecution Argues
By Phoebe Natanson and Nikki Battiste

A battery of lawyers argued before Italy's supreme court today that an appeals court was wrong to overturn Amanda Knox's murder conviction and set her free.

Prosecutors in Knox's supreme court hearing today argued that the judges who set Knox free had "lost their direction." They argued that "some elements were not taken into account," insinuating that the appeal decision to acquit was wrong because not all evidence was considered.

Prosecutors argued that the independent review of key DNA during the appeal, which blasted the prosecution's case and proved a turning point for Knox -- "was used like a final word" and covered up all other evidence.

Each party is permitted 20 minutes to speak, but the prosecutor went on for an hour. After 35 minutes, the judge chided him and asked him to "hurry up."

The prosecutor's arguments were supported by a lawyer representing the Kercher family and a lawyer for Patrick Lumumba, Knox's former boss who has sued her for defamation. They all argued that Knox and Sollecito were wrongfully set free and should be tried again for murder.

If the supreme court rules today that Knox should not have been exonerated, a new trial would be ordered in a lower court. Knox would not be required to return to Italy for the proceedings.

If that lower court trial convicted her again, the verdict would again be appealed to the Supreme Court. Only if the Supreme Court upholds the lower court's guilty verdict could extradition proceedings begin to return Knox to Italy, although experts do not believe such an effort would be successful.


ABC NEWS
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:47 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

ttrroonniicc wrote:
Nell wrote:
Andrea Vogt wrote:
Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 1m

PG read from Guede's letter blaming Sollecito and #amandaknox. Says "strange" that court believed some Guede statements and not others.

Anyone know what statements she's referring to.


Hi ttrroonniicc,

I believe AV is referring to statements Guede made in his Skype chat with Giacomo Benedetti. The Appeal Court believed his statements re: time of his presence at the cottage, extrapolating TOD from that, but not his other statements in the same Skype conversation and the letter that was read out in court.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

ttrroonniicc wrote:
Problem with the board? Looks like I just answered myself (I didn't).


Sorry, it was my fault. I accidentally pushed the wrong button ("Edit" instead of "Quote"). co-) I've just posted my reply to you above.
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Andrea Vogt wrote:
Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 3m

Lawyers say the court of cassation is expected to announce a decision in the #amandaknox case around 21:00.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

The decision around 9 pm Italian time, that means in approximately 3 hours.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Thanks so much..Ava and Nell for the posting of the tweets.

Glad that Guede's accusations were brought up. That's pivotal, imo.

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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

This link from Popper @ .org.
Timeline of what transpired in court.

http://www.umbria24.it/omicidio-meredit ... 59295.html
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Napia5 wrote:
This link from Popper @ .org.
Timeline of what transpired in court.

http://www.umbria24.it/omicidio-meredit ... 59295.html


Thanks Napia. Some google-translated bits:

15:48 Lawyer Giulia Bongiorno (Sollecito's lawyer): "In the scene of the crime were found many traces of Rudy. If Amanda and Raffaele were present, they inevitably would have touched something. It's impossible to think there is a scene in which three [persons] were present, but traces of just one remained." The lawyer added: "It is a detail [confirmation] that the three did not know each other (as claimed by the First Instance court in their Motivations) and did not have a motive."

At 15.35 Bongiorno: "We have documented an endless series of mistakes by the forensics".

UMBRIA24
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

guermantes wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
This link from Popper @ .org.
Timeline of what transpired in court.

http://www.umbria24.it/omicidio-meredit ... 59295.html


Thanks Napia. Some google-translated bits:

15:48 Lawyer Giulia Bongiorno (Sollecito's lawyer): "In the scene of the crime were found many traces of Rudy. If Amanda and Raffaele were present, they inevitably would have touched something. It's impossible to think there is a scene in which three [persons] were present, but traces of just one remained." The lawyer added: "It is a detail [confirmation] that the three did not know each other (as claimed by the First Instance court in their Motivations) and did not have a motive."

At 15.35 Bongiorno: "We have documented an endless series of mistakes by the forensics".

UMBRIA24


So...Bongiotno just *dismisses* the mingled blood of Knox and Meredith..and that's just for starters. And..I have news for Bongiorno..( who I'd like to say Buononote to ). Jealousy and rejection are certainly motives. Right up there with money. Pfft.

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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

AND..it's already been comfirmed that Knox DID know Guede. What a crock.

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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Where's Michael?????

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Amanda Knox awaits verdict from Italy’s highest court that could overturn murder acquittal

Prosecutor general Luigi Riello argued before the court that there were ample reasons `'not to bring down the curtain on the case."

Riello said the appellate court was too dismissive in casting aside DNA evidence that led to the conviction in the lower court, arguing that another trial could make way for more definitive testing.


NY DAILY NEWS
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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

capealadin wrote:
Where's Michael?????


I hope he's doing fine?
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Offline tamale


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Thanks for all the updates.

Hoping Michel is ok....

I am sitting in Starbucks and right across from me is a woman doing Yoga (in Starbucks!!). It's a sign, no doubt. Har har.
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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Back to Jail for Amanda Knox?
by Barbie Latza Nadeau Mar 25, 2013 2:13 PM EDT

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... -knox.html

"...
The big question still remains: could Amanda Knox somehow find herself back in an Italian jail cell? Defendants in criminal cases are not required to attend hearings, so even if the case is retried, Knox would not have to return to Italy. If she were reconvicted and sentenced to jail time on the appellate level, Italian authorities may be able to extradite her based on an alliance with the United States. More likely, they would wait until a second high-court ruling on the appeal.
..."
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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

I've almost forgotten about that: (from the dailybeast article)

"Knox is also facing a separate slander charge for accusing Perugia police of brutality during her interrogation. That case is still in the lower courts with a verdict expected sometime this summer."
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Offline Itchy Brother


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

capealadin wrote:
guermantes wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
This link from Popper @ .org.
Timeline of what transpired in court.

http://www.umbria24.it/omicidio-meredit ... 59295.html


Thanks Napia. Some google-translated bits:

15:48 Lawyer Giulia Bongiorno (Sollecito's lawyer): "In the scene of the crime were found many traces of Rudy. If Amanda and Raffaele were present, they inevitably would have touched something. It's impossible to think there is a scene in which three [persons] were present, but traces of just one remained." The lawyer added: "It is a detail [confirmation] that the three did not know each other (as claimed by the First Instance court in their Motivations) and did not have a motive."

At 15.35 Bongiorno: "We have documented an endless series of mistakes by the forensics".

UMBRIA24


So...Bongiotno just *dismisses* the mingled blood of Knox and Meredith..and that's just for starters. And..I have news for Bongiorno..( who I'd like to say Buononote to ). Jealousy and rejection are certainly motives. Right up there with money. Pfft.


I can't tell you how annoying it is to see this tired trope making the rounds. Every time it rears its ugly head someone should shout back "so you are saying Rudy couldn't possibly have been in Filomena's room, right?"
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Itchy Brother wrote:
capealadin wrote:
guermantes wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
This link from Popper @ .org.
Timeline of what transpired in court.

http://www.umbria24.it/omicidio-meredit ... 59295.html


Thanks Napia. Some google-translated bits:

15:48 Lawyer Giulia Bongiorno (Sollecito's lawyer): "In the scene of the crime were found many traces of Rudy. If Amanda and Raffaele were present, they inevitably would have touched something. It's impossible to think there is a scene in which three [persons] were present, but traces of just one remained." The lawyer added: "It is a detail [confirmation] that the three did not know each other (as claimed by the First Instance court in their Motivations) and did not have a motive."

At 15.35 Bongiorno: "We have documented an endless series of mistakes by the forensics".

UMBRIA24


So...Bongiotno just *dismisses* the mingled blood of Knox and Meredith..and that's just for starters. And..I have news for Bongiorno..( who I'd like to say Buononote to ). Jealousy and rejection are certainly motives. Right up there with money. Pfft.


I can't tell you how annoying it is to see this tired trope making the rounds. Every time it rears its ugly head someone should shout back "so you are saying Rudy couldn't possibly have been in Filomena's room, right?"


EXCELLENT Point, Itchy. And, how very strange that someone who lived in the cottage...left ONE fingerprint on a glass??

It couldn't be...could it...that 2 people..apart from Guede..cleaned up? ( insert irony).

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

and all of the certified finds like how Meredith had been restrained, and the way she had been attacked, all of that makes absolute sense and is believable as such, whilst the defence speaks in terms of ´impossible´, come on, there are criminals who managed to hide every trace of themselves, the defence makes no sense.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

The hour of truth has arrived?

Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 2min

Quote:
@KSLPinto Thanks for kind mentions. Media gathered, lawyers arriving.we'll see if timings hold.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Clander on .org has posted this live news link.
http://video.sky.it/news/diretta
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 1min

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A bell has rang in Court of Cassation and journos and lawyers filing in now for ruling.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

bell has rung in court lawyers and journalists entering for decision

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 55s

Courts have said they reserve decision for 10 am tomorrow morning.#amandaknox
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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

rimandata a domani.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

tomorrow at 10am, decision.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Decision postponed...

Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 1m

Quote:
Courts have said they reserve decision for 10 am tomorrow morning.#amandaknox
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

ha ha, we are all making sure the facts are known.

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Last edited by zorba on Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 1min

Quote:
Sollecito's lawyers were the only ones in court. Bongiorno just said this kind of delay very rare. They need more time.#amandaknox
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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 1m
Sollecito's lawyers were the only ones in court . Bongiorno just said this kind of delay very rare. They need more time.
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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 2m
It is panel of five judges, and president casts vote in case of divided opinion.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Knox must wait 1 more day for high court decision
By Frances D'Emilio

Italy's highest court says it will issue a decision Tuesday morning on whether to overturn American student Amanda Knox's acquittal in the murder of her roommate.

The court heard six hours of arguments on Monday before going into deliberations. After several hours, it announced it would issue the decision at 10 a.m. (0900 GMT) Tuesday, an unusual but not unprecedented move.

The high court normally issues the decisions the same day it hears arguments. But prosecutor general Luigio Riello told reporters that "in very complex cases, it happens" that the court takes another day.

Lawyers for Knox's co-defendant, Raffaele Sollecito, declined to speculate on what the delay could mean for the decision.


AP

Screenshot, courtesy of Dempsey (!)

https://twitter.com/Candace_Dempsey/status/316282955360268288/photo/1
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

A few more details about defense lawyer arguments at today's hearing. Bongiorno rehashed the same tired talking points from her closing arguments in the Court of Appeal (translator-"medium", etc).

Amanda Knox Lawyer Says Prosecution 'Started With an Error"

Lawyers for Amanda Knox told Italy's Supreme Court that prosecutors who argued today that she should be retried for the murder of her roommate "started with an error and ... continues to insist in the errors."

Knox's lawyer got the last word as a team of lawyers for the prosecution and the family of the slain roommate, Meredith Kercher, told the country's top court that an appeals ruling that freed Knox from prison in 2011 had made a mistake. They want her to face a new trial and be sent back to prison.

"'This trial started with an error and the prosecution continues to insist in the errors even in an attempt to convince the Supreme Court that the recourse should be accepted," Knox's lawyer Carlo Dalla Vedova argued.

Dalla Vedova reminded the court that today's hearing should only consider whether Italian legal code was applied directly, noting it was not a re-trial of evidence and witnesses.

After the hearing, Dalla Vedova told ABC News, "The prosecutor spoke about the merits of the case as opposed to the procedural faults."

Dalla Vedova reminded the Supreme Court they had previously ruled Knox's "confession" inadmissible because Knox was never informed she was suspect.

Bongiorno reminded the court that Knox was not allowed a lawyer during her interrogations, but was allowed a translator, or what she referred to as a "medium" who would "induce [Knox] to remember things." Knox testified in 2009 that the translator encouraged her "to try to remember."

Bongiorno added in court today, "There was a lot that was strange that night -- dreams, visions. But she said the strangest was instead of calling a defense lawyer, 'they called a medium.'


ABC NEWS
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 1m

Quote:
Cassation law allows for delay due to fatigue, so lucid decisions are made. 6 hrs of debate on #amandaknox case today. Rest.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Dempsey is really clueless (and she claims she can speak Italian?). She thinks these are the Supreme Court judges. Mua-)

Candace Dempsey ‏@Candace_Dempsey 1h

Quote:
See #AmandaKnox judges at #Italy Supreme Court. Verdict. 10 a.m. tomorrow. pic.twitter.com/5yYsEtzk4W


https://twitter.com/Candace_Dempsey/status/316293399953166336/photo/1

I believe these are judges in the Sabrina Misseri trial -

Processo Scazzi
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

guermantes wrote:
A few more details about defense lawyer arguments at today's hearing. Bongiorno rehashed the same tired talking points from her closing arguments in the Court of Appeal (translator-"medium", etc).

Amanda Knox Lawyer Says Prosecution 'Started With an Error"

Lawyers for Amanda Knox told Italy's Supreme Court that prosecutors who argued today that she should be retried for the murder of her roommate "started with an error and ... continues to insist in the errors."

Knox's lawyer got the last word as a team of lawyers for the prosecution and the family of the slain roommate, Meredith Kercher, told the country's top court that an appeals ruling that freed Knox from prison in 2011 had made a mistake. They want her to face a new trial and be sent back to prison.

"'This trial started with an error and the prosecution continues to insist in the errors even in an attempt to convince the Supreme Court that the recourse should be accepted," Knox's lawyer Carlo Dalla Vedova argued.

Dalla Vedova reminded the court that today's hearing should only consider whether Italian legal code was applied directly, noting it was not a re-trial of evidence and witnesses.

After the hearing, Dalla Vedova told ABC News, "The prosecutor spoke about the merits of the case as opposed to the procedural faults."

Dalla Vedova reminded the Supreme Court they had previously ruled Knox's "confession" inadmissible because Knox was never informed she was suspect.

Bongiorno reminded the court that Knox was not allowed a lawyer during her interrogations, but was allowed a translator, or what she referred to as a "medium" who would "induce [Knox] to remember things." Knox testified in 2009 that the translator encouraged her "to try to remember."

Bongiorno added in court today, "There was a lot that was strange that night -- dreams, visions. But she said the strangest was instead of calling a defense lawyer, 'they called a medium.'


ABC NEWS



Dalla Vedova's comment is gold and is basically what Ted Simon said in his interview as well: they are glad that there is only narrow room for review because the Supreme Court can only rule about the application of law. They seem relieved and remind everyone that it is now too late to talk about the evidence. Ted Simon repeated a few times during his interview that the only criteria that needs to be met is if the Appellate's jury acted legally.

Ted Simon: "Well, the real question we have today and the only question before us is the review of the Supreme Court and their narrow scope of review ... uh ... of what the Appellate Court jury did. And that is the only matter ... and that is the only matter ... that we are really focused on. So we are certainly hopeful and prayerful ... uh ... that the Supreme Court will realise that the Appellate Court jury acted well within its bounds and correctly determined she was wrongly convicted. I mean the Appellate Court jury ..."
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

If you look at Joran Van De Sloot, they knew he was guilty but had no body, as it is clear Sloot did away with her, if there was any doubt about what the police believed, well when he murdered a second victim, it was more than clear that the missing girl definitely disappeared through his actions, and the state he made of his second victim made it clear what Natalie Holloway´s fate had been too.

Then look at Sollecito, and his behaviour, did his thinking ever change, his going off and enjoying his life but then most distastefully so and as though to make a show of it too, what with his online presence, well, I reckon Sollecito is an ongoing danger, he has the same lack of remorse that Sloot displayed and still does, yes Sloot said he was innocent too, then smashed a poor girl to bits, stole her money, stole her car, sounds familiar as well, Meredith's money, keys, phones.

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Offline DanielSC


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Where are Michael and Ergon? Michael has not posted in forever. I have a bad feeling we are in danger of trolls in the next 24 hours regardless of how the Supreme Court rules.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

An excerpt from Tom Kington's article for the Telegraph (I especially liked the headline):

Amanda Knox acquittal 'violation of the law which must be annulled'

"I believe all the premises are there to make sure the final curtain does not drop on this shocking and dire crime," Luigi Riello told a panel of six Supreme Court judges who are deciding whether to confirm Miss Knox's acquittal or order a retrial. Their decision is expected to come at 10am local time on Tuesday.

What should have been a quick hearing rapidly turned into a five hour long, hard fought battle, as prosecutors and lawyers ignored protocol to pour over the finer details of the six-year-old case.

Mr Riello stood to speak first, asking the court why Miss Knox had returned to the crime scene the morning after the murder and taken a shower, despite evident blood stains in the bathroom.

He recalled how Miss Knox rang her mother to raise the alarm – at 3am in Seattle – before the body of Kercher was found, and how her mother later asked her 'Why did you ring me when nothing had happened?'"

Mr Riello also focused on Miss Knox's initial claim to police that an African barman in Perugia, Patrick Lumumba, may have murdered Kercher, a claim she then withdrew before police arrested Ivory Coast born drifter Rudy Guede after finding his DNA around Kercher's body.

"Naming a black man was more credible if someone had seen him leaving the house," Mr Riello said.


THE TELEGRAPH
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

DanielSC wrote:
Where are Michael and Ergon? Michael has not posted in forever. I have a bad feeling we are in danger of trolls in the next 24 hours regardless of how the Supreme Court rules.


The usual suspects are probably too busy refreshing the websites with live feeds. I don't expect an invasion of trolls before the announcement of the Supreme Court's ruling. Should we experience troll posts they will be dealt with.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ergon's lurking, thanks. I want to wait for the verdict and speak with a fresh mind, though if encouraged, I'll do some astrology. Tomorrow, the full moon, yay. As Nell says, any trolls will be dealt with.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ergon wrote:
Ergon's lurking, thanks. I want to wait for the verdict and speak with a fresh mind, though if encouraged, I'll do some astrology. Tomorrow, the full moon, yay. As Nell says, any trolls will be dealt with.


Consider yourself encouraged.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

DanielSC wrote:
Where are Michael and Ergon? Michael has not posted in forever. I have a bad feeling we are in danger of trolls in the next 24 hours regardless of how the Supreme Court rules.



Don't worry, they are watching, Ergon is busy, Michael drops in, and there are others who can monitor and do.

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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

We really don't need to bother about trolls. We've been boycotted, remember?
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:19 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

The Supreme Court verdict is reportedly expected at 10 am local time Italy.

Here is a link to a countdown clock.

Countdown To Supreme Court Verdict in Meredith Kercher Case
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Offline louiehaha


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:26 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

a report from Fox News. It contains reasoned comments from Andrea Vogt and what appears to be the new FOA offensive - complaints about double jeopardy - laid out by Anne Bremner. It's from earlier today sometime.

Any word on whether the FOA are all holed up in some hotel room like last time?
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:02 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Thanks louie, very interesting. Anderson Cooper tweets that Amanda Knox's lawyer is on AC360 tonight. I guess he means Ted Simon? Yawn. I think it's time for a nap p-((( .

Anderson Cooper 360° Anderson Cooper 360° ‏@AC360 4h

Quote:
Will Amanda #Knox stand trial a 2nd time after serving 4 yrs in Italy for the death of her roommate? Her lawyer is on #AC360 8, 10pm
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:53 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Lots of video clips on the SkyTV Italy website:

http://video.sky.it/news/cronaca/meredith_la_sentenza_slitta_a_domani_il_padre_di_raffaele/v154573.vid
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:39 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

louiehaha wrote:
a report from Fox News. It contains reasoned comments from Andrea Vogt and what appears to be the new FOA offensive - complaints about double jeopardy - laid out by Anne Bremner. It's from earlier today sometime.

Any word on whether the FOA are all holed up in some hotel room like last time?


Thank you for the link, louiehaha.

Anne Bremner: "Has the same boyfriend she had before the trials, before her initial arrest."

So according to Anne Bremner Amanda Knox hooked up with David Johnsrud again, because that's the boyfriend she had before she left to Italy. That is of course wrong and Anne Bremner weaves that little tidbit into her speech to paint Amanda Knox as a more serious girl than she actually is. Fact is she hooked up with yet another guy right after her daddy uttered the words "it is to soon to talk about romance" to the journos after arriving in Seattle and she even moved in with him a very short time after.

Anne Bremner also demonises the Italian press by claiming that all the images we have seen in the press since Knox's release have come from Italian paparazzi and that the American press in contrast has respected her privacy. It has been suspected that it could have been her family and Marriott who released the few photos to keep Amanda Knox relevant in the media. If I remember correctly the occasionally published photos ceased once Amanda Knox got her book deal with the clause to lay low.

Rather than informing the audience, those covering the Meredith Kercher murder case and Amanda Knox's involvement are brainwashing the public by making them believe there is no double jeopardy rule and that the U.S. doesn't have to accept as valid any ruling that comes from italy. They want to give the impression that for the U.S. the case is over and done with, independently what Italy may or may not decide.

Anne Bremner sums it up in one sentence: The U.S. doesn't extradite its own citizen.
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Offline pataz1


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:52 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

anderson cooper 360, 10pm EST, 3rd segment on anticipated AK/supreme court ruling. Some of the comments I could pull from it as it was playing

tag before commercial break something like: "if you thought she was already acquitted, she was... show you why it wasn't the last word"

tag before commercial break
"an anxious night for amanda knox.. supreme court to determine if she will be retried. Can they actually do that? Talk to AK lawyer ahead."

between commerical tag:
appeals court overturned, so why isn't AK legal nightmare over? answer next.

commerical
Anderson:
will ak face retrial in italy.. supreme court judges heard case today
spent four years in prison, appellate overturned their convictions.
ak always maintained innocence.
despite appellate court ruling, prosecutors want to try them again
ben wedeman in london
discussion on postponement. told earlier should be expecting at 9pm.. but at 9 announced we would hear at 10 am tomorrow.

barbie nadeau- shouldn't read that much into the delay;
heard 14 cases today, this wasn't the most complicated, though knox was most high profile
head is 76 years old.. its 930 at night.. maybe they just need some sleep.
meet about 730 or 8 to deliberate, talk over then give us the verdict.

ac q-if court overturns, does ak return to italy?
ben- ak not have to return yet
hold another appeal court trial in florence
then the italian gov would have to request AK be expatriated, brought back to italy
"the united states wasn't really happy" the way the trial was conducted the first time around
no guarantee they will extradite

barbie-
at the second level of appeal
at appellate 50% are changed one way or another
at high level, lots changed but not 50%
sending a case back to retrial- not generally how they do it.. generally appellate are upheld
its high profile and complicated case.
guede tried in separate case and convicted
factors like sollecito has one of the most high profile lawyers defending him
all weigh into the mix, behind scenes aspect of this case.

q- how confident are you this court will -not- overturn appellate?

ted simon-
we're not in the business of prejudging court decision.. have to understand legal landscape
appellate had authority and jurisdiction not only to evaluate and determine if trial court committed any legal error but also authority and jurisdiction to reevaluate the facts and determine what the "true facts" were.. when they did that they actied within their authority.. ultimately determined wht the "true facts"were.. when they did that they determined, whether it was in regard to prosecution witness testimony, physical evidence, or prosecution forensic evidence, they determined it was
absent, nonexistent, unreliable, wrong thats why they reversed]
supreme court narrower, see if appellate acted within jurisdiction and within the proper rules.
everyone remains reasonably hopeful without prejudging what they will do

q- any way any ruling require ak return to italy?

ted:
we have to look at the legal landscape.. right now only have to await what the supreme court does.hopeful they will not overturn. . if they overturn appealate
have to see what their directions are.. most likely would not require.. have to see what a new trial would do.. most likely would not require her to rturn.
whether she would have to return or not is not in the legal landscape or int legal telescope
there is nothing to lead anyone to believe in any of the evidence that there would be any other verdict than not guilty.
simply is absence of evidence in this case

ac-
agreed
stunning it got this far when you look at what evidence there was, because really wasn't evidence
practically- is this case over as far as your client is concerned? she is in seattle.. is a student in washington. is she watching at all?

ted- spoken to ak several times today (blather about how great ak family is)
they're waiting, waiting to see what the decision will be as anyone would
hopeful supreme court will recognize appealite "brightly illuminated" that this case was originally based on wholly inaccurate and unreliable information .
monumental wrongful conviction, hopefully supreme court will rule that way
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:17 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Thanks a lot for the transcript, pataz1. The 3.5 min AC 360 video clip is now available to view online at

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/

but they failed to include that last segment with Ted Simon.

ETA: The Ted Simon interview has now been uploaded to the CNN website and can be viewed, too.

Quote:
Amanda Knox’s attorney, Theodore Simon, on the lack of evidence against his client and her likely vindication in an Italian court.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:25 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Roughly four and a half hours to go ...
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:04 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

It's 6AM in Rome ...
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:24 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Boise State DNA expert anxiously awaits Knox decision

The Boise State DNA expert and Director of the Idaho Innocence Project who helped free Amanda Knox of murder charges in 2011 awaits a big decision from Italy's top criminal court.

"We're ready to do whatever we have to do, sure," said Dr. Greg Hampikian.

"I just can't imagine this is going to go to another trial, but if it does we're prepared to go to trial again," said Hampikian.


KTVB

In whose name is he speaking? Who is this "we"?
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:57 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

guermantes wrote:
Boise State DNA expert anxiously awaits Knox decision

The Boise State DNA expert and Director of the Idaho Innocence Project who helped free Amanda Knox of murder charges in 2011 awaits a big decision from Italy's top criminal court.

"We're ready to do whatever we have to do, sure," said Dr. Greg Hampikian.

"I just can't imagine this is going to go to another trial, but if it does we're prepared to go to trial again," said Hampikian.


KTVB

In whose name is he speaking? Who is this "we"?



The * We* is the MAN. ( in Hamp's mind, anyway.) Knox's SAVIOUR..don't ja know. Of course, G..I know you've got your tongue in cheek :) Me? I'm truly gobsmacked at the misplaced ego's.

Talk about blowing his own horn. Pfft. He's living in an altered universe, that one.

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:59 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Him, the organ grinder, and the hundred monkeys at Vashon Island who operate the Mighty Wurlitzer Amanda Knox perpetual motion publicity machine ;)
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:18 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

It's 7:17 am in Italy. Less than three hours to go.

Countdown To Supreme Court Verdict in Meredith Kercher Case
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