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XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31, 12 - MARCH 29, 13 (S)

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:50 am   Post subject: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31, 12 - MARCH 29, 13 (S)   

XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31, 2012 - MARCH 29, 2013 (SFARZOGATE)






This is the main discussion thread regarding the achievement of truth and justice for Meredith Kercher and her family. Meredith, barely 21 years old, was brutally murdered in her own home on the 1st November 2007 whilst studying in Perugia, Italy.

To read the previous main discussion thread, please view XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 - OCT 31, 12

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:34 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Especially considering the date, I think it would be fitting to kick off the new thread with the Stephanie Kercher video once again:

STEPHANIE KERCHER - COSMO AWARD WINNER




(click on the little circle on the top right-hand corner of the player to full screen the video)

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Offline daisysteiner


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/view/27 ... ed-sister/

Not that I trust a word from the Daily Star but there is a ring of truth in the last two sentences.....

Quote:
Meanwhile, sources close to Knox, 25, say she is too scared to visit Britain to promote her autobiography. A spokeswoman for the publisher said: “Amanda is not coming to the UK.”


Last edited by daisysteiner on Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Thanks Guermantes and Michael had to use QUOTE in your post to extract the link, then SAVE IT, then use the option OPEN WITH then using my Free File viewer which open everything, or near-on everything


Was lovely to listen to Stephanie, such a lovely person, and when listening couldn't help think how Meredith would have sounded.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

http://www.perugiamurderfile.net/download/file.php?id=5366


Note
Just a Note.
~ The above link is the direct download for the Stephanie Kercher Cosmo video.~

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Offline max


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Bongiorno, lawyer for Juventus coach Antonio Conte in a match-fixing scandal (found guilty), has now become part of the board of Directors of Juventus. Yah..yah...
http://www.ansa.it/web/notizie/rubriche ... 97567.html
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

They're all at it Max!

I bet that Bongiorno person heard the door, keys jangling, who the hell is that she thought!

Man been away at sea, Captain Bongiorno probably.

Hel---------------loooooooooooooooooooo

Who's there

Me! I'm back

Biongiorno quickly shoves the wine under the sofa.

Who?

Me, I'm back it's Ted, I've been away at sea, all this time and now I'm back

Oh thank God, it's been so long. Oh yes, so long, I've missed you so much, guess what, you must meet your daughter Esmerelda
Yes, your daughter looks just like you John, all that time and now you're back, oh John

It's Ted!

Yes dear, 2 years, at sea John, all this time

It's Ted

Yes, well as long as you're back

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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Gumbel continues to peddle his and Sollecito's book on

CelebrityCourt: AuthorChats

Wed, October 31, 2012

CelebrityCourt: AuthorChats, hosted by criminal defense lawyer Elizabeth Kelley, features in-depth interviews with authors about their books. This episode features Norman Lefstein, former dean of Indiana University School of Law, on "Securing Reasonable Caseloads: Ethics and Law in Public Defense;" and Andrew Gumbel on "Honor Bound: My Journey to Hell and Back," which he wrote with Raffaele Sollecito, Amanda Knox's co-defendant.

You can listen to his interview here:

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/celebritycourtradio/2012/10/31/celebritycourt-authorchats

--> via Honor Bound FB page: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Honor-Bound-By-Raffaele-Sollecito/539499499410315?ref=hl
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ultimate Editor's Choice: Stephanie Kercher
by Rosie Mullender

31 October 2012

When I first met Stephanie Kercher, I wasn’t sure what to expect. Her sister, Meredith, was brutally murdered in Perugia, Italy, five years ago, and having lived in the glare of the media throughout the high-profile trial that followed, she had, understandably, shunned interviews with the press.

But with the fifth anniversary of Meredith’s death looming, and Stephanie’s decision to launch a fund to help her parents financially as their fight for justice continues, she agreed to meet me to talk about her story and our Ultimate Women of the Year Awards.


COSMOPOLITAN

Attachment:
Stephanie Kercher Cosmo Award Winner.jpg


Isn't she lovely?! She's got supermodel good looks!


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Offline daisysteiner


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Thanks for the Cosmo link. Stephanie is such a lovely kind hearted yet determined woman and she deserves recognition for what her family has had to endure. And she looks gorgeous in the picture above, yay for Steph :)
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:29 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Coming up in the next issue of Cosmopolitan:

Stephanie was thrilled at the chance to keep Meredith firmly in the spotlight two days before the five-year anniversary of her death. On stage at the V&A she dedicated her award to Meredith, and her full story – told to Cosmo for the first time in our upcoming Awards issue – is focused on her very special relationship with the younger sister she lost so tragically.


COSMOPOLITAN

Quote:
Every issue of the Cosmopolitan Magazine comes out every second week of the month to stores.

Source: ChaCha
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

daisysteiner wrote:
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/view/279888/Stephanie-Kercher-dedicates-award-to-her-murdered-sister/

Not that I trust a word from the Daily Star but there is a ring of truth in the last two sentences.....

Quote:
Meanwhile, sources close to Knox, 25, say she is too scared to visit Britain to promote her autobiography. A spokeswoman for the publisher said: “Amanda is not coming to the UK.”



I'm not surprised. It's the guilt that causes that sort of fear. Not that us Brits are like that, she won't be attacked by a mob or anything. What she SHOULD be very afraid of is not the British public, but the British media. If she turned up in the UK to promote her 'book' that would mean her having to deal with the British media and they aren't cuddly like the US media that bend to every whim of Marriott and her publishing agent and dole out tea and sympathy, they'd want to ask the hard questions. I think she knows that and THAT'S what she's really afraid of in terms of Britain.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Meredith would be the first to say how lovely Stephanie looks there and then ask where she got that beautiful dress, I bet.

How wonderful that someone with a brain felt moved, so much so, as did they at Cosmo, to do these things.

So others than us here are in the know, and are aware of what happened, I do not think we'll see any awards for Knox or Sollecito any time soon in the Cosmopolitan.

I'm glad I cannot stand reading all those crap sites that get mentioned here (those of the little Knoxy people), as I expect the nuts will be doing the nasties as usual.

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Last edited by zorba on Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Thanks Michael, I forgot to write anything with the vid link

I was messing around this afternoon trying to make a link work, as the one you placed, all as I see is a white square here, am I the only one?

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

In which post is it you're seeing the white square? What options does it give you if you right click on it?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Just one Michael, and it takes me to the Adobe webpage

It might be my own settings need updating or something.

The Flash Player maybe.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Download and install both of these: http://www.filehippo.com/download_flash ... fox/13414/ and http://www.filehippo.com/download_flashplayer_ie/13413/

Also make sure you have the latest version of Java. If your current version is older then this one, uninstall the old one from Add/Remove programs first then after closing your browser, install the newer version here: http://www.filehippo.com/download_jre_32/

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Thanks Michael

Will give that a go.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

The other link to Cosmo Award that Guermantes provided, wow, I will never view Cosmopolitan in the same way again, as this is really moving after all of the awfully hurtful things that have taken place, and we do not need to detail what exactly as we all know how, what and why, but, this is moving because it's uplifting to see that someone in the media got it right for once and no cheap shot doing it for their own benefit, like newspapers writing scandalously terrible inaccurate stuff., sensationalising everything.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:58 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Perugia university to hold Nov 1 mass to commemorate Kercher

British student murdered exactly five years ago
31 October 2012

(ANSA) - Perugia, October 31 - The university of Perugia is holding a mass on Thursday to commemorate the five-year anniversary of the slaying of British student Meredith Kercher, who was found murdered on November 2, 2007 in her home in the Umbrian city where she was studying.

''It remains a great wound in citizens' consciences'', Father Bromuri told ANSA. ''It is a dark spot and a loss that we are unable to rationalize, to find a logical reason for''.

His words were echoed by Perugia Mayor Wladimiro Boccali, who said ''the anniversary of the slaying reopens a wound that had never actually healed''.

''The murder of this girl has left a deep mark on the conscience and on the collective memory of the town'', Boccali added.

The city of Perugia and the university two weeks ago instituted a scholarship fund in honor of Kercher.


ANSA
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

It's so nice to see Perugia University continues to remember Meredith. First the scholarship dedicated to her memory and still now they, and the mayor, continue to hold mass on the anniversary of her death to commemorate her.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:06 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

That's what I thought too Michael

I will take a trip sometime, down to Perugia, just to listen in to how the people there really think, I know already, but it doesn't get reported, I'd love to talk to lots of people and get their angles on it all, they've had their entire reputation put on the line, first by Knox and Sollecito and then by their families.

It is in no way surprising to see what two little shits they are, when seeing what their families stand for, and how they are so aggressive, I'm pretty sure where the killers got their nastiness from.

One thing I cannot get, is about Guede, because to me, he doesn't seem nasty or aggressive and then in line with that, I find it hard to imagine he'd have gone so far as to take any initiative to molest Meredith, therefore I think somehow he was drawn in by other forces, which preyed on his worst self, if he had been so bad surely he'd have been in trouble before, and he wasn't, NO MORE THAN Ms KNOX and Mr SOLLECITO, he was no different to so many other young people, ''if'' he didn't stick to any one job it meant and means nothing, so many people shift around, young or old.

As I have said many times, the very few things that Knox and Sollecito said when they were seeking ways out of the situation they were in, trying to escape detection, by lying, were things that held some keys, as they were true, like Sollecito's, Well if I am in this thing, it is all her fault.

It is this that shows something of the mechanism behind what happened. It shows a pissed-offness towards Knox, but it would in truth hardly be true that she was ALL to blame, that is simply a comfy idea for HIM.

Yet, something she was or did, meant that there was a situation there, where things happened and happened though a type of encouragement, and I think that the wickedness was brewed in Knox's mind which affected the other two as males.

What about if Knox messed about with Guede, leading him on, Sollecito at home, and then him later on getting drawn in.

Knox may have acted as a tease to Guede, getting him to go off his head encouraged by her, aroused by her, and then not letting him get any further than she wanted him to.

It's possible, because wouldn't it be better for Guede to own up to the molestation/rape elements, rather than be seen as ''the'' murderer?

So there must be something that holds him locked in too; he may have carried out the molestation but, been compliant with the total abuse, though it went further than he had ever imagined it would as it was all in he moment anyhow.


Though Knox had been stewing so she would have, perhaps, had rotten thoughts brewing.

I cannot see Guede ordinarily, as an Italian - which he WAS, in every way, not even knowing his homeland and having no feed from that culture, no family in Italy interested or taking part in his upbringing - going so far as to think he would be able to get away with raping a girl who knew him, and I do not see him as a rapist in any way, inthe first instane m thogh I do know he molested Meredith so though he wasn't it, that night he did become it, but I think without Knox's encouragement and shitness/twisted-mindedness, he never would have done such a thing.

Then, for him to have done that it must have been through being lead on, like from someone acting like some kind of wicked human poltergeist, all three of them mashed up on stimulants; coke and speed.

The weed had nothing to do with it.

That is another dead giveaway, Sollecito saying: Papa I will never smoke the joint again.

It is because he said that to hide the fact, by blaming it on weed, that they did something far heavier and that's how it went as bad as it did, once one of them got something ill-intended in their head. And that person could only be Bambi Knox.

Need to speak to a couple of the bar people and others to get the real deal because they'd know and I'll know when they are just being nasty or whatever.

And on the lady, elderly lady, what happened to her?

Her income gone, hard to rent the place out, if you try to sell it people say no the history here means you need to put the price right down.

Would like to know what happened now to that house, some people do not care about things like that, like past things, me, I couldn't live in a place where someone was murdered.

I drive past a house each day where a girl got shot, all because of irritations, like about bikes in the way, the next door neighbours bought it up, for a long time nobody living there as they the neighbours run a company there, but now I saw, tonight, signs of someone living in the actual apartment downstairs where the killer used to live, where the girl was found too (he fled).

Yes, some people are very business-like/compartmentalized/box-like thinking about some things, feeling no emotion.

His parents helped him try to get away with it too, the murdered girl''s mother could no longer function, and she was highly educated, she could no longer work.

A stone needs to be cut by a professional stonemason, with Meredith's name on it and it needs to be placed near the entrance to that house.

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Last edited by zorba on Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:42 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

On Halloween 5 years ago I joked with my pal Meredith. 24hrs later she was murdered

Perugia student remembered

Excerpts from the Times article by Monique Rivalland with some never-before-seen large pictures

Town waits for justice

MANY Perugians are still furious that justice has not been served five years after Meredith’s death — and consider the sordid affair to be unfinished business.

Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito had their 26 and 25-year jail terms overturned last year while Ivory Coast-born drifter Rudy Guede is serving a 16-year sentence.

But the case is not closed. Perugia prosecutors have appealed against the two acquittals, with Italy’s highest appeal court due to hear their plea within months.

It could lead to a new trial being held in Florence. Locals in the walled town remain divided about what actually happened at the house where Meredith died.

But the man now living in the repainted residence had no idea it was the scene of a fatal stabbing.

Bangladeshi cook Mohammed Abdul Kadir rents the cottage with his wife — who is eight months pregnant — and three other migrants from his country.

A pram is parked, ready for the birth, in the sitting room where Meredith’s flatmate Knox strummed her guitar five years ago. When asked by The Sun if he knew of his home’s grim history, Mohammed replied: “Is this house famous? It means nothing to me.”

It is a different story at the university where Meredith studied.

A mass is being held to commemorate five years since her death.


THE SUN
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:58 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Thanks. I guess that answers the question if the place is rented out.

From the link above:
Quote:
A pram is parked, ready for the birth, in the sitting room where Meredith’s flatmate Knox strummed her guitar five years ago. When asked by The Sun if he knew of his home’s grim history, Mohammed replied: “Is this house famous? It means nothing to me.”

So should he have been told? I say no, let him live there in peace. To him, it is just a house.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:31 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

max wrote:
Thanks. I guess that answers the question if the place is rented out.

From the link above:
Quote:
A pram is parked, ready for the birth, in the sitting room where Meredith’s flatmate Knox strummed her guitar five years ago. When asked by The Sun if he knew of his home’s grim history, Mohammed replied: “Is this house famous? It means nothing to me.”

So should he have been told? I say no, let him live there in peace. To him, it is just a house.



That's what I think, it was a beautiful little place and remains so.

To someone who knows nothing it's still lovely, and, Meredith obviously loved it, her own home in Coulsdon also had a beautiful view at the back of nature.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:38 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

PMF's thoughts go out to Meredith and her family today...

R.I.P Mez rip)

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:40 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

max wrote:
Thanks. I guess that answers the question if the place is rented out.

From the link above:
Quote:
A pram is parked, ready for the birth, in the sitting room where Meredith’s flatmate Knox strummed her guitar five years ago. When asked by The Sun if he knew of his home’s grim history, Mohammed replied: “Is this house famous? It means nothing to me.”

So should he have been told? I say no, let him live there in peace. To him, it is just a house.



Well, I think the ship's sailed on that one now...

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:58 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Thoughts for the Kerchers today. As Stephanie reminds us, they will make sure she isn't forgotten, and, they are still waiting for justice.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ergon wrote:
Thoughts for the Kerchers today. As Stephanie points out, they will make sure she isn't forgotten, and, they are still waiting for justice.


As shall we! :)

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Andrea Vogt has written an excellent article about the anniversary of Meredith’s sad death and the possible outcomes of the final appeal:

http://thefreelancedesk.com/?p=893
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

The Machine wrote:
Andrea Vogt has written an excellent article about the anniversary of Meredith’s sad death and the possible outcomes of the final appeal:

http://thefreelancedesk.com/?p=893


Thanks TM, an excellent article from Andrea as one would expect and a fantastic picture with it.

Meredith's memorial was marked by the archbishop no less!

And I just want to quote this from the article regarding Stephanie Kercher:

Andrea Vogt wrote:
Her sister, Stephanie, has bravely set aside polemics and her own grief to take on a more prominent public role speaking about her sister, to preserve her memory in a positive way. Earlier this week she appeared on ITV1 before being awarded editor’s choice prize Tuesday at the Cosmopolitan Ultimate Women of the Year Awards in London, which she dedicated to her sister. Cosmopolitan editor Louise Court called her “an inspiring figure of strength and support,” and praised her “single-minded desire to ensure her sister isn’t forgotten and to make sure her personality shines through any projects she undertakes.”


And finally:

Andrea Vogt wrote:
Perugia’s prayers for Meredith are a reminder for all those who followed the divisive case – no matter who they thought was guilty or innocent - to pause for a moment to reflect on the promising, well-liked young woman who died so tragically and prematurely five years ago today, in a city still haunted by her memory.

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THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:14 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

In tribute to Meredith Kercher:

KRISTIAN LEONTIOU (SOME SAY)







For Meredith




(Created by ViaDellaPergola)

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THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Michael wrote:
daisysteiner wrote:
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/view/279888/Stephanie-Kercher-dedicates-award-to-her-murdered-sister/

Not that I trust a word from the Daily Star but there is a ring of truth in the last two sentences.....

Quote:
Meanwhile, sources close to Knox, 25, say she is too scared to visit Britain to promote her autobiography. A spokeswoman for the publisher said: “Amanda is not coming to the UK.”



I'm not surprised. It's the guilt that causes that sort of fear. Not that us Brits are like that, she won't be attacked by a mob or anything. What she SHOULD be very afraid of is not the British public, but the British media. If she turned up in the UK to promote her 'book' that would mean her having to deal with the British media and they aren't cuddly like the US media that bend to every whim of Marriott and her publishing agent and dole out tea and sympathy, they'd want to ask the hard questions. I think she knows that and THAT'S what she's really afraid of in terms of Britain.


First of all, RIP Meredith. I cannot believe it is five years since Leeds Uni saw you smile and laugh. Justice is coming m'dear and I'm sure, wherever you are, you're pulling every single lever possible to make sure those that removed you from this world face what is coming to them. xx

As for Knox, an innocent person would hold their head high in the face of any jibes and insults or difficult questions; knowing they have the upper hand/moral high ground. A guilty person hides away in shame. I suspect there is a reason Knox is in hiding in Seattle. I don't think she has as many supporters as her parents and sisters led her to believe she had. Based on the Daily Beast article, I would say that she hears the word "murderer" whispered at her every day especially since the reporter woke her neighbours up to what they have living nearby.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Meredith Kercher's Sister Stephanie To Set Up Charity To Help Victims' Families

Stephanie Kercher is to launch a charity in memory of her sister Meredith, who was murdered in Perugia five years ago whilst on an Italian exchange.

The charity will use the money left over from Stephanie's 'Justice for Meredith' campaign to help the families of other victims and is to be launched in the next two weeks.


Huffington Post

Charity Tribute to Meredith Kercher

Brave Stephanie Kercher is set to launch a charity in memory of her murdered sister Meredith.

She said: “There have been so many people who have asked where they can help and donate.”


THE DAILY STAR
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

max wrote:
Thanks. I guess that answers the question if the place is rented out.

From the link above:
Quote:
A pram is parked, ready for the birth, in the sitting room where Meredith’s flatmate Knox strummed her guitar five years ago. When asked by The Sun if he knew of his home’s grim history, Mohammed replied: “Is this house famous? It means nothing to me.”

So should he have been told? I say no, let him live there in peace. To him, it is just a house.



Hello all.


Yes Max, it does answer it doesn't it.
I'm pleased the elderly lady arranged something and for those knowing nothing and coming later, it can never affect them I think the same way as it has those who have been following it, that said, I'm not sure they will look at it all so cleanly if they see those photos of Meredith in a pool of blood.

I expect they are very pleased with such a quaint and great cottage and I'm glad for Meredith as I'm sure she would be pleased for those people, as she loved the location; why should what those nitwits did ruin so much for so many?

God - or whatever it is that shapes everything - bless Meredith and all people who have been violently abused and violated.

Love is the only right way.


Them that got
Shall get
Them that's not
Shall fail
So the Bible says
And it still
is news

Mama may have
Papa may have
But God bless the child that's got its own
That's got its own

When the rich
get more
And the poor
just fade
Empty pockets
Never made
the grade

Mama may have,
papa may have
But God bless the child that's got its own
That's got its own

When you've got money
You've got a lot of friends
Hanging round
your door
But when the money's gone
And all the spending ends
They don't come around
No more

Rich relations
may give
Crust of bread
or such
You can help yourself
But please don't take
too much

Mama may have,
Papa may have
But God bless the child that's got its own
That's got its own




The above my dedication to Meredith, brought to mind by the sense of injustice as long as Knox and Sollecito's families get away with using stereotyping Guede by typecasting him as the only guilty party, guilty because he is black and accordingly to what they've done and their slant on it, black people simply do these things so that's why he is guilty, because he is black, Guede certainly is a co-guilty component in the murder but he is just one of three.

And after the horror of that situation the upliftingly redeeming sure knowledge: that love is the only real thing worth anything in this world and it is connected to truth and forgiveness. Only, the trick is, even those who wish to forgive, can do that yet it does not help the guilty, until the guilty admit the wrong, and then try to find a way, after admitting wrong and thus gaining a conscience, to forgive themselves, yet if you allow your real feelings, you the killer, the feelings you hide from and repress, then you simply will not be able as a killer, to forgive yourself, not that easily, at all, as you will feel bad, and if you are someone who did something so vicious, then obviously you should feel bad.

If the idea is, that, Knox and Sollecito did not do it, according to themselves and their families, then apart from themselves being unable to forgive themselves, then nobody else can forgive them, how can I forgive them if they didn't do it. As long as they say they did not do it, I cannot even begin to try to forgive them, even if I am sure they are guilty.
They say they are not, therefore there is no forgiveness anywhere.

And then, if the truth is, you did do it, how hard is that, to not be able to get past this, even if you are alive and enjoying freedom, are you then free?

I think both of them, and Guede too, thus all three, are prisoners.

Meredith had her own, and some others did not and will not, ever anymore.

Having your own, means being strong, and loving yourself, as a balanced individual,

it shouldn't cause someone else to feel jealous, but in their darkness they felt weak, it seems in this case though, that's what the deal was.

Meredith was every bit as strong as Stephanie.

Both Meredith and Spephanie her sister, were taught through example how to love themselves and others.

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Last edited by zorba on Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:49 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Five years after Kercher's death, US student stabbed in Rome
By Nick Squires

An American foreign exchange student has been stabbed in Rome during an argument fuelled by drugs and alcohol.

The vicious attack on Thursday came five years to the day since Meredith Kercher, a British student in Italy, was stabbed to death in Perugia.

The 20-year-old American was stabbed 25 times after a row erupted in the apartment they shared in central Rome, a few minutes' walk from the Colosseum, in the early hours of Thursday.

Another American student was lightly injured in the attack, which happened in a flat in Monti, a picturesque quarter of Rome's historic centre, after a night of Halloween partying.


THE TELEGRAPH
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

guermantes wrote:
Five years after Kercher's death, US student stabbed in Rome
By Nick Squires

An American foreign exchange student has been stabbed in Rome during an argument fuelled by drugs and alcohol.

The vicious attack on Thursday came five years to the day since Meredith Kercher, a British student in Italy, was stabbed to death in Perugia.

The 20-year-old American was stabbed 25 times after a row erupted in the apartment they shared in central Rome, a few minutes' walk from the Colosseum, in the early hours of Thursday.

Another American student was lightly injured in the attack, which happened in a flat in Monti, a picturesque quarter of Rome's historic centre, after a night of Halloween partying.


THE TELEGRAPH


Another attack fueled by drugs (marijuana, cocaine and ecstasy) and alcohol. Oh, and the attacker was also an American student, his 'friend'.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

There's a Huffington Post article about Stephanie's new Justice For Meredith project, a charity she is setting up to help families of other victims.

HUFFINGTON POST
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:13 pm   Post subject: FOR MEREDITH   

Meredith Kercher, RIP r-(( r-(( r-((

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:06 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Dedicated to Meredith Cara Kercher, her dear family and all of her friends everywhere














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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Pino and Eric in Italy





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Last edited by zorba on Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Part of what makes Italy, Italy






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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:39 am   Post subject: ITALY US EXTRADITION TREATY   

Attached here is the Italy US Extradition Treaty, as submitted to the 98th Congress in 1983 by President Ronald Reagan.


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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 3:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Let's hope the case get turned around.

Knox likes it in Italy so she won't mind going back to prison, Capanne will be just like going home where she belongs.

Accusing prison staff like she did Patrick will not help her one little bit, how many times can baby cry wolf?

Knox's when it suited them: Oh yeah when she got back to the prison the guards spent all night comforting her (as if to imply, poor thing see, they all like her, etc).

Knox's family when it suited them again: Oh well, those guards molested her..

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Last edited by zorba on Sat Nov 03, 2012 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 3:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Hi, all. My family and loved ones are all safe. We are back in our home.. Will get back after we get settled. Thanks all for concern and prayers!
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Glad to hear from you, Napia5! Yes, we were concerned for all those we hadn't seen in a while, and hoping they were all right. Anyone else in the storm's path? We were lucky here in Toronto as the storm passed by us, though 50,000 people were without power for a day.

That's the thing about these internet based communities. Riots in the UK, quakes in Italy, super storms across the US, and we pray for our friends, and hope they are well.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 5:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Oh Napia I didn't even know that, I mean that you had to leave.

Sorry, I wasn't keeping up I think.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 5:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Let's see if this keyboard includes the S'es, yes, seems to be.

Should have switched ages ago only this one is chunky/takes up lots of space, this one is Mama Cass the other was Twiggy

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 5:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ergon wrote:
Glad to hear from you, Napia5! Yes, we were concerned for all those we hadn't seen in a while, and hoping they were all right. Anyone else in the storm's path? We were lucky here in Toronto as the storm passed by us, though 50,000 people were without power for a day.

That's the thing about these internet based communities. Riots in the UK, quakes in Italy, super storms across the US, and we pray for our friends, and hope they are well.


Hey Ergon I'm guessing lots of people do have like an own emergency generator, there where it can get so cold?

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Many people here do have them, zorba. Big clunky diesels, 1500-10,000 watts, good for 24 hours. In The NE United States, some people will be without power for TWO weeks. We can only hope for the best for everyone affected.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Right.

I guess heating is the most important thing for people at home

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:29 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Heat is certainly a major factor right now for some. Generators run on fuel. Stations can't pump fuel without electricity. Some stations can't be reached and are out of fuel altogether. A smaller gas generator will run 12 hours on a tank of fuel. Then you have to fill up. You can run space heaters off the generator, but you must have special wiring to hook up a generator to the main source for your heater and hot water heater. Phone lines are down and areas can't be accessed yet because of debris. Things were a bit rough where I live, but I cannot imagine the suffering of those hit hardest.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:07 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Beautiful tributes and memorials posted. Warmed my heart.

And, at the risk of being a bit sentimental, when we were finally able relocate, my youngest granddaughter pulled down the covers and found, of all things, a pure white feather in her bed. She was delighted, and so was I.

RIP Meredith. Your memory has done some beautiful things for people.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:41 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Napia5 wrote:
Heat is certainly a major factor right now for some. Generators run on fuel. Stations can't pump fuel without electricity. Some stations can't be reached and are out of fuel altogether. A smaller gas generator will run 12 hours on a tank of fuel. Then you have to fill up. You can run space heaters off the generator, but you must have special wiring to hook up a generator to the main source for your heater and hot water heater. Phone lines are down and areas can't be accessed yet because of debris. Things were a bit rough where I live, but I cannot imagine the suffering of those hit hardest.



Hi Napia,

That's exactly what I more or less worked out yesterday except hadn't thought up/realised/didn't know about the fuel stations.

I didn't realise you'd been affected.

What I was wondering, is, where is it safest in the states, which areas never get affected or hit by anything, no hurricanes and no earthquakes.

I'll look it up.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 2:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Daylight Savings Time is over in North America. Please adjust your Global Settings in the User Control Panel to show summer DST is no longer in effect, so your page will show the correct time of your post. This feature can be used by anyone if their local time is not displaying properly on their pages.


~Have a nice restful day, every one :)
Ergon
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Reports are coming in that Marathon runners, disappointed at the cancellation of the race, are now volunteering to run with backpacks full of supplies for those in need of aid on Staten Island. God, don't you just love people?
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:04 pm   Post subject: BECAUSE WE CANNOT HAVE ENOUGH WHIMSY   

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Napia5 wrote:
Reports are coming in that Marathon runners, disappointed at the cancellation of the race, are now volunteering to run with backpacks full of supplies for those in need of aid on Staten Island. God, don't you just love people?


Right.

If something is relative now, it could only be that all of those homes without electricity, in danger of having to be abandoned soon as cold really sets in, then it means getting generators to all of those who need them, and supplying those generators with fuel

All of these politicians, no matter who or where they are, always blame the predecessors, and meantime almost no water-repelling dykes were built down there with Katrina and that's why so many drowned and now too; having people abandoning their homes and area is going to be more damaging than what the costs amount to for making sure those people can try to rebuild immediately, but they can't salvage and rebuild if they are freezing and unable to even cook.
Meantime the damp from the water that receded, will set in, instead of drying out, causing more permanent damage than would or should or could be necessary, seeing as how it is the most unfortunate time of year to be hit by water damage, in some hot summery location it could be dried within a day or a week after it recedes, but that will not happen.
I'm wondering what real measures, clever measures, are being implemented now, because even if it is force majeure (act of Goid though some might say devil) you'd think that America could combat even this.
So if it doesn't combat it fast it sort of shows the reality, that in fact America is highly developed as far and as long as it concerns the good times, but when things are hard, it's really hard. It tells me there is a deficiency in American society that is normally seen in among the poor but affects everyone at such times, it shows that there is something wrong, namely that society, dependent on all of that big business politics, is uncaring.
It's a dog eat dog affair?

Someone needs to explain to me why America the Great cannot solve the problem of heating for the many left without electricity and utilities.

The chaos as a result of displacement is going to cost everyone far more.

All resources need to be pulled to sort things out.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Hi - just a note to follow the tributes on Nov 1st for Meredith. I was away for the weekend as Nov 1st is my birth date - I thought about Meredith all day as well as thinking of everyone on both PMFs - I hope you are all well and to Napia - I bet its good to be home.

So lovely to see Stephanie being honoured, what a lovely lady. I have finished work for a couple of months and one of my plans is to visit Meredith's grave in the next couple of weeks - if anyone would like me to leave a message on their behalf please pm me - discretion absolutely assured - unlike some others we could mention!!

RIP Meredith
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:39 pm   Post subject: RE: MESSAGE FOR MEREDITH   

Hi, a belated Happy Birthday to you, dollycat! r-((

For me, and maybe others here, a card "from her friends", is sufficient, thanks. The unnamed person, well known here for her mawkish performances in 'remembering Meredith', needs to recognize that simple gestures are NEVER out of place, but pair that up with a "Free Meredith Kercher" site, and entreaties addressed to the Kerchers about their lawyer, and 'the haters', and how she hopes "they will one day realize that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are innocent" is deeply offensive. As she just got told by her own friends :)

Good manners ought to be a universal value.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

There may be another storm hitting the North East tomorrow, with a cold front already heading in. Power will still be out in some areas. Please, stay warm, but also, remember to vote!
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Hi, Zorba. I am the wrong person to ask such complicated questions. In my area, our police, firepeople, and municipal personnel are exhausted.
This crisis truly tested their collective limits. They are, only people, after all. Every day now, I pick up the paper to read of someone's complaint that a tree was not removed quickly enough, and services were not restored as rapidly as they should have. There are few thanks to be read.
It infuriates me.

We cannot, as a people, as a free nation, sit back and bitch about the other guy, about the government and do nothing ourselves.
My neighbors elected to stay in their home. We were not forced to evacuate, and they have a fireplace. The day we packed up. my granddaughter spent the morning gathering stray firewood for them so they would be warm.

You cannot buy this. You cannot legislate it, or force it.

Yes, Ergon, tomorrow we will vote. But it does not relieve each of us from our own responsibility towards our neighbor. We will not stay strong if we forget this. It is not only the other guy's job.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Hi, Napia5. I used to live in a small New York town near a state park and know whereof you speak. They didn't even have a regular, but a volunteer fire department, and a County Sheriff for law and order. Yes, it can be rough, but, those people were real, down to earth, and exceptional. No matter what people say about government policy, I can only say good things about Americans as a people. And yes, my friends are all out there helping each other, and making do, though they were also badly affected.

And as to police, firefighters, and municipal workers, the first thing I did on Huffington Post the night after the storm was thank them all, on behalf of my friends. They do an amazing, difficult, job, and deserve our respect for that.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:37 pm   Post subject: MORE FRANK SFARZO   

The peripatetic Frank Sfarzo, now reduced to writing PR copy for acquitted murderers, wrote this to commemorate the 5th anniversary of Meredith's murder in which he slags the Kerchers once again, lies (so what else is new?) and posts phony news about a $50,000 'scholarship' at Seattle Prep in Amanda Knox's name for which no announcement has yet been made:

THE MEREDITH KERCHER CASE FIVE YEARS LATER

Hatred That Doesn’t Help With Loving Her
Scholar-Shipping About the Case

"In the meanwhile we have enjoyed even a kind of involuntary scholarship war.

The city of Perugia, in barely five years, has set up a future scholarship in honor of Meredith Kercher. So, students from London (not from the rest of the world, not even from the rest of England, not even from Meredith’s university) will have a chance to experience the Italian bureaucracy, of genuine Soviet inspiration.

They will be allowed to fill out a mountain of papers, pay fees here and there, and then they will be eligible for being guests in the Capanne-style dorms of the university accommodation agency. If they win the competition they can spend a season in the town in which the police frame students and leave criminals free, even after they have been caught stealing in an apartment or a nursery house, as it happened to Rudi. To make the concept more clear, the great prosecutor and his cops recently arrested even the innocuous Giorgio Cocciaretto (one of the students downstairs) for another imaginary crime.

London students can win a scholarship to the town which, looking at statistics for drug and criminality reported by Italian media, risks to be soon awarded with the Golden Syringe. The town in which Mignini is a hero and the cops who arrested Patrick Lumumba, Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, have been awarded and promoted.

More simply in Seattle, someone donated $50,000 to Seattle Prep to set up a scholarship in the name of Amanda Knox. I’ve got the feeling that it will be more practical.

Sisters-O-Case
Among the many angles through which the case can be approached there is even the one of the sisters, so that you can pick your favorite one. Interesting because youth can be sweet, but it can also be intransigent, as we shall see.

When Amanda couldn’t speak her sister Deanna explained on TV that Foxy Knoxy, the nickname that had tabloids go wild, was only related to her way of playing soccer. Kind of helpful, it seems.

Raffaele’s sister, Vanessa, as he revealed in his book, had spent three years trying to convince her brother to lie about that night and say that Amanda had gone out (just like he had said, getting it wrong, during the original interrogation. And due the intelligence of those people you can’t get it wrong).

“Ho sbagliato, l’ho presa alla leggera”, Raffaele confessed in his diary. By speaking “lightly” to the cops and telling them that Amanda had gone out, he kind of helped create that disaster, as he recognizes.

A contribution possibly superior to the one provided by Amanda with her cartwheel and odd behavior. So, there wasn’t too much more to blame on the girl than on himself. But that’s what his family wanted him to do. And his sister was “one of the most vocal advocates of this line of defense”, Raffaele writes. She was suggesting to him to follow the original “suggestions” of the cops: accuse Amanda. Fascinating.

A few days after the acquittal I was delighted to see Meredith’s mother Arline smiling and finally relaxed, while saying in an interview, “If they are innocent it’s good that they are free”, something like that.

Meredith’s sister Stefanie, instead, on that occasion looked kind of irritated and got rid of the journalist who was interviewing them. She appeared to be still there, at the stage of hating Amanda and Raffaele (or maybe just Amanda…).

After one year and 144 pages of motivations, though, will she have softened herself a little? It doesn’t look so: reportedly she just said in a TV interview that she relies on the Supreme Court. (= she hopes that the S.C. cancels the acquittal of Amanda and Raffaele, so a new trial will start in a couple of years. In that trial she hopes that they will be convicted. Then the case would return to the S.C. which, she hopes, will ultimately confirm the conviction, in about ten years…). All this while we know that the real killer is someone else. Lovely.

She found herself well with the great prosecutor. It looks like she, just like him, will never abandon the dream of destroying that girl. Nice couple.
This hatred, though, doesn’t seem to help the love and the remembrance of Meredith. On the contrary."

It would appear, that it is Mr. Frank Sfarzo that is most consumed by 'hatred'.

He needs to not make up lies. Arlene Kercher did NOT say what he reports her as saying, so point your oily prose elsewhere, away from the Kercher family, and consider yourself lucky that the Groupies never held you accounatable for being the major source of the media leaks that painted Amanda Knox as guilty in the first place.

And sister Vanessa is a liar 'who spent three years trying to convince Raffaele to lie, and due to his er, intelligence, he got her into the soup in the first place? Hokay, if you say so, Francisco.

And, as a supposed 'journalist', he forgets the first rule: fact check your stuff. It doesn't appear to be a scholarship, but, an endowment SEATTLE PREPARATORY SCHOOL

Endowment

"You may establish a named fund, or endowment, in your will. An endowment is separately managed, restricted fund that can bear your name, the names of you and your spouse, or the name of another family member, friend, or colleague. The minimum dollar amount for a named fund at Seattle Prep is $50,000. An example of language creating a named fund is: “I give to Seattle Preparatory School located in Seattle, Washington, ________ (indicate amount or property to be given) to establish the Donor’s Name Endowed Fund within the Seattle Preparatory School Endowment Fund. The income distributed from this endowment shall be used for programs in the area of (state purpose, if restricted).” If you do wish to designate a particular program or purpose, we recommend that you or your legal advisor discuss your wishes with Seattle Prep before your estate plan is completed."

Ahem.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ergon wrote:
Hi, Napia5. I used to live in a small New York town near a state park and know whereof you speak. They didn't even have a regular, but a volunteer fire department, and a County Sheriff for law and order. Yes, it can be rough, but, those people were real, down to earth, and exceptional. No matter what people say about government policy, I can only say good things about Americans as a people. And yes, my friends are all out there helping each other, and making do, though they were also badly affected.

And as to police, firefighters, and municipal workers, the first thing I did on Huffington Post the night after the storm was thank them all, on behalf of my friends. They do an amazing, difficult, job, and deserve our respect for that.


Thanks for that, Ergon. You are describing my community to a T for the most part. I thought about the Kerchers at times this week. Holding the hand of a frightened child in the dark, facing the possibility of harm to them is such a horrible thing. Realizing again what the Kerchers lost, and how they have managed to move forward is truly inspiring.

Back to our regular programming.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Napia5 wrote:
Hi, Zorba. I am the wrong person to ask such complicated questions. In my area, our police, firepeople, and municipal personnel are exhausted.
This crisis truly tested their collective limits. They are, only people, after all. Every day now, I pick up the paper to read of someone's complaint that a tree was not removed quickly enough, and services were not restored as rapidly as they should have. There are few thanks to be read.
It infuriates me.

We cannot, as a people, as a free nation, sit back and bitch about the other guy, about the government and do nothing ourselves.
My neighbors elected to stay in their home. We were not forced to evacuate, and they have a fireplace. The day we packed up. my granddaughter spent the morning gathering stray firewood for them so they would be warm.

You cannot buy this. You cannot legislate it, or force it.

Yes, Ergon, tomorrow we will vote. But it does not relieve each of us from our own responsibility towards our neighbor. We will not stay strong if we forget this. It is not only the other guy's job.


I understand that

but... what I mean is, if so many people are in trouble, then government resources should be put in place immediately to help those people, especially in a country that is capable of sending rockets to the moon.

Therefore, the thing that would be wrong, and what I meant, is the government not sorting those basics out.
Meaning that it has to be the priority right now, rather than talking politics.
Of course people are going to help one another but how much can they do if the basics infrastructure is not repaired as fast as possible, I mean instead of putting soldiers oin Afghanistan, what about sending them in at home, to sort things out.

I know that the entire situation in the Katrina disaster was terrible, but if in richer states they also don't get the help they need, from the government, then it seems it wasn't a case of discrimination (Katrina with so many black people living there in the affected areas) where nobody cared about the place with a majority of black people but that the problem lies higher up and has nothing to do with rich or poor, it is simply to do with inadequacy/incompetence because a government, governments are supposed to invest, like making things safe(er) for people,


Anyway, I have not heard anything about fantastically clever measures being put in place, last I heard is, that, as the cold really sets in, people will have to abandon their homes, when there is no mains supplies, no heating and it's so cold, and it is already.

So that sounds awful.

Best thing Obama can do is to really sort it out, with the military going in, to restore as much as possible as fast as possible

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:19 pm   Post subject: Re: MORE FRANK SFARZO   

Ergon wrote:
.



I'm not reading things from that twat Sfarzo, why should I, what am I to gain from him except for feeling shit, from the crap he says?


Who cares what he says, not me, I care so little that I'm not going to let his bullshit into my mind.

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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:51 pm   Post subject: Re: MORE FRANK SFARZO   

zorba wrote:
Ergon wrote:
.



I'm not reading things from that twat Sfarzo, why should I, what am I to gain from him except for feeling shit, from the crap he says?


Who cares what he says, not me, I care so little that I'm not going to let his bullshit into my mind.


Hi, Zorba. Reading Frank's latest is like reading vomit in the printed form. He has a small audience to feed, so that they can feed him. Ergon's rebuttal is so on the money, there's not much to add except Blecchh!

I do find the information about endowment vs scholarship interesting, though.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:18 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

I could not get to the info bit as I cannot stomach even seeing that man's name, he is such a creep and god knows what he is up to.

I know others may want to follow such people but I don't want to and I cannot; Sfarzo is just too much, he is obviously a very sick individual, profit-mongering on Meredith, his way of talking, I mean I did used to read his blog then ridicule him to hell, there's him there writing in English, as though he could yet he never got anything I was saying to him until someone explained even though I was showing him up for being the nasty fool he is for the nonsense he was continually coming out with.
A very dislikeable individual.

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Last edited by zorba on Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:58 am   Post subject:    

Ergon wrote:
And, as a supposed 'journalist', he forgets the first rule: fact check your stuff. It doesn't appear to be a scholarship, but, an endowment SEATTLE PREPARATORY SCHOOL

Endowment

"You may establish a named fund, or endowment, in your will. An endowment is separately managed, restricted fund that can bear your name, the names of you and your spouse, or the name of another family member, friend, or colleague. The minimum dollar amount for a named fund at Seattle Prep is $50,000. An example of language creating a named fund is: “I give to Seattle Preparatory School located in Seattle, Washington, ________ (indicate amount or property to be given) to establish the Donor’s Name Endowed Fund within the Seattle Preparatory School Endowment Fund. The income distributed from this endowment shall be used for programs in the area of (state purpose, if restricted).” If you do wish to designate a particular program or purpose, we recommend that you or your legal advisor discuss your wishes with Seattle Prep before your estate plan is completed."

Ahem.


Hi Ergon, brmull's post on .org from earlier tonight:

by brmull » 06 Nov 2012, 01:05

Quote:
Okay, so I checked out Sfarzo's claim and it's true there was an endowment made by Tom Wright (FOA, living off royalties of that unforgettable movie New Jack City). What a fool.

Attachment:
Knox Scholarship Announcement.png


This was actually announced six months ago. Link here (page 42): http://issuu.com/mathesdesign/docs/pant%20...%20spring2012


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
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Offline louiehaha


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 6:11 am   Post subject: Re:   

guermantes wrote:
This was actually announced six months ago. Link here (page 42): http://issuu.com/mathesdesign/docs/pant%20...%20spring2012


Check out the honor chords on Wright’s own daughter Sara (Harvard 09), apparently overlooked for the vanity endowment by her own father in favor of “no honor chords” Knox, high school grad, college dropout, under indictment for murder and sexual assault, convicted of felony calunnia. She's an ex-con self admitted drug user who posted a photo of a naked Italian man (Frederico) on her MySpace and bragged about shagging him on the train. I guess there's always room for one more naughty faux-Catholic school girl at Sea-Prep...must keep a diary!

Looks like Knox forgot to apply antiperspirant before the big event...if four million dollars won't move her to mind her hygiene, the problem is mental.

*****************
The link to beautiful Meredith's scholarship, as expected it was misrepresented by the lying PS blogger accused of beating his elderly mother. It is open to all British college students, not just Londoners: https://www.unistrapg.it/en

“MEREDITH SUSANNA CARA KERCHER” SCHOLARSHIP
Starting from the 2012-2013 academic year, the City of Perugia, the University for
Foreigners of Perugia, and ADISU (Umbria Agency for the Right to Study) will be offering
a two-month scholarship in memory of student Meredith Susanna Cara Kercher.
Applicants for this scholarship, whose objective is the study of Italian language and culture
at the University for Foreigners of Perugia, must be of British nationality, and should fulfill
the following requirements:
REQUIREMENTS:
a) Between 18 and 25 years of age;
b) Be enrolled in a BA or Postgraduate/Master course
1. THE SCHOLARSHIP INCLUDES:
a) Free admission to Italian Language and Culture courses at the University for
Foreigners of Perugia (info: http://www.unistrapg.it), for two months;
b) Free accommodation for the duration of the course (two months);
c) Free lunches and dinners at the university cafeteria from Monday to Saturday (except
Saturday dinners and Sunday meals);
d) Return flight;

2. APPLICATION:
Students wishing to apply need to fill in the application ("Attachment A") and enclose the
following documents:
1) University enrolment certificate;
2) Curriculum Vitae;
3) Complete student academic resume;
4) Motivation letter;
5) Letter of reference from a lecturer/professor.
Application must be emailed to:
- londra.borsakercher@esteri.it
- borse@unistrapg.it
by November 23rd, 2012
3. RESULTS:
The Italian Embassy in London will examine the candidates’ curricula and announce the
results which are final.

This is a great honor to Meredith!
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

A Knox Scholarship my big fat royal behind

The depths of some people's depravity knows no bounds

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:38 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Mummy mommy I've been awarded the Knox Scholarship

Oh how wonderful child, perhaps you can be like her one day?

Oh yes mommy, please please mommy I want a set of flick knives for Christmas

If you study hard child you can have a gun set.

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Offline dollycat


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:16 pm   Post subject: Re: RE: MESSAGE FOR MEREDITH   

Ergon wrote:
Hi, a belated Happy Birthday to you, dollycat! r-((

For me, and maybe others here, a card "from her friends", is sufficient, thanks. The unnamed person, well known here for her mawkish performances in 'remembering Meredith', needs to recognize that simple gestures are NEVER out of place, but pair that up with a "Free Meredith Kercher" site, and entreaties addressed to the Kerchers about their lawyer, and 'the haters', and how she hopes "they will one day realize that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are innocent" is deeply offensive. As she just got told by her own friends :)

Good manners ought to be a universal value.


Thanks Ergon - 100% with you re manners! x
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Best wishes today for all our American friends, and hope one day they can reclaim their country.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

They always run in packs!

This mentality, where it appears that in Knox's area, her wee group support her, not as humans with actual brains but more like wild animals, as in them defending their pack.

This scholarship, ah well see she went to school with our daughter

The wonky judge, Judge Willy Wonka Heavey, ah well see m,y daughter went to school with her

So like animals, where they do not care what is what, as they do not have the brains to consider things, they just protect their own.

I would never have assumed a place like Seattle could be like that but if a school, supposedly having something to do with Christ acts at this level, then there is little hope, though I'm being very sarcastic because I'm certain that no way do all people in Seattle think (or rather fail to think) like these people do around Knox, they act like monsters from another planet have come to abduct their children, what this tells me is that there is a real lack of sense of identity and this episode has served to make them exercise and express their fears this way, as seen through this intolerable and terrible way of doing things, enough is not enough and they have to do stuff like this, where the school people say so many incorrect things in the space of two sentences, like years in a jail for nothing, when the truth is Knox the good wench was found guilty of doing criminal things, specifically falsely accusing Patrick Lumumba and not ever having taken it back in any real way and certainly not when it was needed, namely when he was sat in person suffering for things he did not do, but things Knox did do, again, namely, by telling lies about him (and many others).

So her old chummy school awards her for that and inspired by her criminal behaviour, likewise tells lies by providing and putting out false information.

Also, she is not yet in the clear and hopefully will not be when March comes around.


So do enjoy your Christmas Ms A Knox; I personally think it should be the last - for you for many years - spent around your family, as I think you are guilty of murder and have deprived not only Meredith of any Christmas times ever again, but also her family.

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Offline daisysteiner


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:16 pm   Post subject: Re: MORE FRANK SFARZO   

zorba wrote:
Ergon wrote:
.



I'm not reading things from that twat Sfarzo, why should I, what am I to gain from him except for feeling shit, from the crap he says?


Who cares what he says, not me, I care so little that I'm not going to let his bullshit into my mind.


I read the first two paragraphs only to discover that my first instinct was correct - Sfarzo is a bitter tin foil hat wearing loon who managed to get his 15 mins from the back of a dead girl and the back of a shocked family of an arrested girl. Imagine for a second that a Kercher sibling and not Chris Mellas had latched onto Frank's blog in the early days. Imagine how different his tone would have been, at least his integrity would have been intact as he would have kept the same message line since his first anti-Knox/Sollecito articles? Ultimately, Frank would have sold his granny to get a paying gig at a recognised media outlet, actually he probably still would sell his granny if a decent job came up - that was the reason that Perugia Shock was created, to get Frank some attention.

Frank Sfarzo = Strange little man currently drowning in self pity for a situation of his own creation.

Frank Sfarzo = man dropped on his arse from huge height by Amanda Knox unless I missed the big touching 'Frank meets Manders' gratitude photo shoot?
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Hi, daisysteiner. You gave me the biggest chuckle of my day. I JUST finished a conversation I was having about Frank. In my humble opinion, Frank was not raised under the watchful, eagle-eye of his Italian 'nonna'. Couldn't have happened. I know some nonnas. His Italian grandmother would have kicked his sorry arse to the curb for his behavior. She would have been rightly ashamed of him, and he would have been disowned for his sorry rants against the people of Perugia. I think the lack of a nonna, or any kind of moral compass is a big part of his problem.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

zorba wrote:
I could not get to the info bit as I cannot stomach even seeing that man's name, he is such a creep and god knows what he is up to.

I know others may want to follow such people but I don't want to and I cannot; Sfarzo is just too much, he is obviously a very sick individual, profit-mongering on Meredith, his way of talking, I mean I did used to read his blog then ridicule him to hell, there's him there writing in English, as though he could yet he never got anything I was saying to him until someone explained even though I was showing him up for being the nasty fool he is for the nonsense he was continually coming out with.
A very dislikeable individual.


Hi Zorba and all,

I have been reading Dempsey and Follain -- borrowed from a library -- this past week. At first, I laughed out loud a lot reading Dempsey's book - I could hardly believe what I was reading - she was quoting Frank Sfarzo as a competent source in almost every chapter, and towards the end - on every second page. I had a hard time finishing her book. She might as well have dedicated her entire book to "Frankie" instead of her parents, aunts, uncles, cousins, siblings, and grandparents. I even thought Candace might have a crush on Sfarzo. She has done a 'good' job in lowering journalistic standards below ground level - her pro-innocence bias is always there - her book is a disgrace and an affront to real, honest journalists everywhere, and she calls herself a "journalist"? She is just an obscure blogger quoting a fellow blogger with no special expertise or qualifications, a mere observer in a court room. This is ridiculous, it's really laughable. She concludes her book in the same vein, by stating Sfarzo's opinions about the judicial process, as follows:

Candace Dempsey wrote:
"Sfarzo had been pretty certain that Amanda and Raffaele were mixed up in murder when he began covering the Meredith mystery on Perugia Shock. Then Patrick, their supposed co-conspirator, turned out to be innocent. Police found Rudy's DNA everywhere. Giuliano Mignini never altered his crime theory, simply subbing in Rudy for Patrick and assigning the same motives and certainties to this much younger and entirely different suspect. Maybe, just maybe, Sfarzo thought, no orgy took place that night. Eventually, he was able to study the experts' reports, pore over the interrogation documents, evaluate the autopsy results, view the crime scene video, and finally hear witnesses speak in open court. Where he'd hoped to find concrete evidence, he discovered only speculation.

"A conviction with no proof: that is the darkness of the mind," he said after the [first degree] verdict. "Twenty-six years in a cell: that is the horror. When you are innocent: that is the nightmare."

But Frank Sfarzo believed the two college students would be freed upon their first appeal "or in the worst hypothesis, the penalty would be reduced to about fifteen years and then the Supreme Court will cancel the conviction. And everything will end up with a toast of tarallucci e vino, as always."

"Tarallucci e vino" [cookies and wine], that's the expression we use when there is an insolvable problem, when an irremediable conflict suddenly ends up with a good laugh, and everyone goes home as if nothing had ever happened."

Not even in the beautiful Umbrian hills could a murder mystery reach a happy ending. But one could still raise a glass to the dead.

"On December 28th we will celebrate Meredith's birthday just as we did in 2008," Stephanie Kercher told reporters. "We will toast to Mez."


A distinct coterie of Knoxers -- look how they scratch each others' backs! After reading this, I thought to myself "Die spinnt wohl" (sorry, switching to German for a second, as I have no words in English that can truly express my feelings. It's an equivalent to, for example, "she is out of her mind.") Who is Frank Sfarzo, Candace, to be quoted at such length? When did he become the supreme moral/legal authority figure?

Dempsey does a thorough job too, muddying the waters on the time of arrival of Postal Police (will quote more from her book later on.)

After that John Follain's book ("A Death In Italy", St. Martin's Press, NY) was like a breath of fresh air for one kept in a stuffy room. As Nell already mentioned, it contains an astonishing amount of new information about Meredith's friends, prosecutors, Knox's lawyers, etc and is a pleasure to read. Very good and highly recommended (I'm about 170 pages into it, a page turner for sure!). I'll be back later with more quotes.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Your description of Follain's book is spot-on, guermantes. His interview with Sophie Purton rings so true, I could not help but feel the emotions that the friends were experiencing. The fear, grief, the shock.

The Groupies love to wail about the lack of support for Knox in the early days. After reading Sophie's heartbreaking story, it's no wonder Knox seemed alienated. No one with any sense or feeling could have known HOW to relate to her. She was not grieving, she showed no emotion that any normal human being could relate to at all. Imagine, in your shock and grief, trying to hug and comfort someone, and getting no response.

These young friends were grief-stricken, bewildered, wanting home and parents. Support and comfort themselves. How dare anyone imply that they are the ones who should have known better, somehow. How can anyone question the very real shock and grief of Meredith's friends? Knox chose to go to Sollecito's flat. Should these young women have chased after her, comforting her, making sure she was safe, comforted, clothed and fed? The more I read Follain, the more able I was to understand the dynamics of the situation.

IMO, the loon should have been sent to summer camp, 5 miles away from home. But, she was an adult. Capable of making her own decisions. And damned herself for making them.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:39 pm   Post subject: Re: MORE FRANK SFARZO   

daisysteiner wrote:
Frank Sfarzo = Strange little man currently drowning in self pity for a situation of his own creation.

Frank Sfarzo = man dropped on his arse from huge height by Amanda Knox unless I missed the big touching 'Frank meets Manders' gratitude photo shoot?


Frank Sfarzo = a public nuisance making big claims with no credentials to speak of.
Frank Sfarzo = a legend in his own mind [only].
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:20 am   Post subject: Re: MORE FRANK SFARZO   

Napia5 wrote:
zorba wrote:
Ergon wrote:
.



I'm not reading things from that twat Sfarzo, why should I, what am I to gain from him except for feeling shit, from the crap he says?


Who cares what he says, not me, I care so little that I'm not going to let his bullshit into my mind.


Hi, Zorba. Reading Frank's latest is like reading vomit in the printed form. He has a small audience to feed, so that they can feed him. Ergon's rebuttal is so on the money, there's not much to add except Blecchh!

I do find the information about endowment vs scholarship interesting, though.



Hi Nap, Guer, Daisy, Ergon, Dolly, Louie and anyone else I've forgotten

Yes the point many realised he really isn't okay was when he started saying stuff about Patrick, he said he was his pal, then went on to tear the poor just released from prison guy to shreds.
It really was pathetic
me I knew right away he wasn't ok, after all, who puts on their blog a poll asking Do you think Meredith was a nice person

at that point I could already have torn him to pieces with my bare hands.

A while after, quite a while, it emerged Skeptical B had been helping him with his English, as he didn't understand that he was not okay, but she did later and stopped helping him, it was sour to realise that someone you thought was ok definitely was not, some people abandoned ship as they did not understand or trust Skep, but actually, she just didn't get it, she didn't know what he was about, people who happened to have a platform(blog) in place thought it was all about them, but it was all about Meredith, Dempsey went from having a blog with 1 person a week to a few hundred a day, she went off her rocker, excitedly announcing to her chums or sister, yes, my blog get hundreds a day from all around the world!

But how much brains do you need to understand it isn't about you at all?

So after few weeks, her blog went back to being dead except for her new chums, the Knoxies and assorted lunatics, and seeing as how there simply are plenty of lunatics milling around on our dear planet then yes, she got looned out, one strange character after the other, buddies, but none with real credentials, each one being weird; a guy that came out of the army and did what they do, Ciolino whatever his name was (and the nutty thing was these were Italian sounding folk yet not one of them could speak a word of Italian just like Dempsey) became a Private Detective, yes sounds great but anyone can do it, you didn't even need a license, all except for the state where that guy was you did need a license, and he failed to get the license and was fined 2000 for that.
So very many lookers in, wanting to get on the merry go round, Tacopino, then Preston popped up, then the alcoholic lawyer, then the neighbour judge acting illegally, then along comes perhaps two of the very most severely deranged Steve-O and his not so lucky bride, I reckon her pottiness is exacerbated by his weird positioning, I'm not saying she was bright but I cannot imagine her being one of the truly mischievous living poltergeists, it's not as though she was, at the time of meeting him, running a worldwide enterprise with six big cars out front, she simply thought he'd be good for her, provide for her, and seeing the way she talks and writes, I doubt her thoughts ever got any further than that, so even though she has been plain nasty, I think it is more a result of her sheer simple-mindedness, he however, in his I'm John Wayne way(s), sets about providing for her now, by trying to cling on to things he has no grasp of, and is indeed as a meddling, worst case - not mischievous but malign - and ill-intentioned poltergeist, a cupcake genie escaped out of his jar, and in no way even loyal to the woman he, as he said, didn't take for her brains, and I think what he meant, it was more for her shape, her vital statistics.

Yes, this basal level is what the interaction entails I fear. However, this said, I blame him for the communal (he and she) behaviour. Fancy getting involved in this, with that meddling, and doing what he did, them pottily coming out with a totally unreadable lot of doo doo about how he cheated on his wife, like he did not care that he was putting out there as what he really cared more about was coming across as though he were FBI guy Casanova.


There were more of them, not one quite right in de teste (head I think that is - I recall mal di teste = headache and the above all are that).
I think they're all camping in Knox's ma's yard demanding their slice of the pie. When's my pie coming.
Frank he drops in every day at noon demanding pizza or else.

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Last edited by zorba on Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:05 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Hi, Zorba. I think quite a few of them are going to be waiting a long time for a piece of any pie.

Unless I am mistaken, some prisoners will delegate power-of-attorney while they are incarcerated, so that someone may act as their legal representative. For banking purposes, and the like. Someone is legally selected to handle these matters for a prisoner. I know of a case where a legal settlement was reached over an accident while the person was in prison, and he needed someone to handle the arrangements. I would assume that Knox and Sollecito had some sort of arrangement like this to handle their affairs.

However, they are both adults. Were adults the entire time. And what may have been discussed by either of their parents, is not necessarily now binding on the two of them, unless contracts were signed legally at the time. Maw and Paw can't legally promise anything binding, even if they committed their entire life savings to the cause. Sticky legal business here.

So, if the hangers-on had been hanging on, hoping for some future windfall, they could all come crashing down. Hard.
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Offline ttrroonniicc


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:50 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

anyone watching the election

seem to have found that live streams originate from oz/ nz

have stuck with cspan

I think it's frozen in florida again (wasn't it frozen in florida in 2000)
they either can't count it or can't decide
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Napia5 wrote:
Hi, Zorba. I think quite a few of them are going to be waiting a long time for a piece of any pie.

Unless I am mistaken, some prisoners will delegate power-of-attorney while they are incarcerated, so that someone may act as their legal representative. For banking purposes, and the like. Someone is legally selected to handle these matters for a prisoner. I know of a case where a legal settlement was reached over an accident while the person was in prison, and he needed someone to handle the arrangements. I would assume that Knox and Sollecito had some sort of arrangement like this to handle their affairs.

However, they are both adults. Were adults the entire time. And what may have been discussed by either of their parents, is not necessarily now binding on the two of them, unless contracts were signed legally at the time. Maw and Paw can't legally promise anything binding, even if they committed their entire life savings to the cause. Sticky legal business here.

So, if the hangers-on had been hanging on, hoping for some future windfall, they could all come crashing down. Hard.



They had to think fast how to deal with the situations, using people but not having them move in.

Imagine, they're sat there eating, and then someone sees a pair of eyes peering through the kitchen window, a stubble-bearded person, who ducks down when they look.

Did you see anyone?

No, it was a bird I think.

Then ding dong... it's the bell

Well hello, ricordiamo, sono io, I was in the regioni and think I dropping in.

Then they let him in, make yaself at home
Frank does; Ya mind if I take ma shoes orft per favor, le gamba killing me, it was a long walk from British Colombia
Sure, make yaself at home. We dont have any gambas though, just meatloaf

Frank takes off one shoe and by that time the budgie curls up in his cage, little legs skywards, bonk falling from his perch, dog leaves his dinner yelps and runs off, cat growls, top lips levitate upwards nostrils expand, eyes pop out

Canada ya said?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Anyhow folks, I'm pleased Obama got re-elected.

The other guy was another one all gung-ho, and the truth is, up until now he made lots of money by outsourcing work, and I mean out of America, if that's a way to get people inro employment, I'll be darned.

I was shocked to see a certain brand of American all demonstrating against Obama's measure to improve healthcare, saying they'd have to pay for it and that they didn't want to be social, connecting this idea, like some 1950-60s panic-sower might, to communism, which is ridiculously plain-minded; being social and caring has nothing to do with communism, after all, was communism really caring? Nope. This all seems more like a classic case of, hey let's all act angrily and blame someone else instead of dealing with things realistically.

This phenomenon, I mean of not caring about those in need, is not new to me, Thatcher's reign made people lean towards thinking that way, as the divide increased it meant those who were in the boat and winning, were well-aware that if they fell out, they'd be in big trouble so where a minority are winning, outrageously and in my opinion unacceptably so, you get people who are very hard, but, as they will not even consider the fact that they could have something happen and end up in need too, they viciously denounce any measure put into p lace to improve the situation for the general populace.

Only those who have so much money already that even if their business collapsed, those with property all over the place or some form of back-up/safety net could have such an attitude but as I said these are in fact a minority and though at elections their money means they get to be seen shouting their stuff, the elections shows that the majority do not trust people like that supporting politicians like the one that just lost.

Whereas in the areas of Europe referred to as the West meaning developed (so the West includes Australia too and places like that) the lack of healthcare seems incredible, hard to even believe.

If you have policies that mean people, many cannot even get healthcare, young girls walking around toothless, and shocking stuff like that then it's no surprise that there is so much criminality and no surprise that America has the biggest porno empire and also that there is a lot of prostitution, the heavy duty kind where women are really abused.

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Hi, all. I was up all day and night watching the elections. Congratulations to President Obama on his well run campaign but above all, to our American friends who, inspite of the storm and unconscionable delays, turned out in large numbers to vote. Almost two million people are STILL without electricity or heat, living in shelters, or with family and friends. It is hard to get gas for their cars, and public transportation is still spotty in many places. So it was inspiring to see how it all came together.

If there is one lesson we have learned over the last five years, it is the need for organized, grass roots campaigns, with dedicated volunteers putting their hearts into what they believe in. Be it the campaign for justice for Meredith Kercher, or to take back the power given to the 1%, that still requires that people get together, and fight for what they believe in.

And in the end, hard work always pays off.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Hi, Ergon and Zorba. My 86 year old father is presently tap-dancing around the house over the election results. He isn't leaving any scuff-marks, however. He refuses to buy any shoes that are not marked "Made in the USA", and our shoe factories have all been outsourced.

The spirit of the American worker is alive and well, and kicking up a storm today.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Here we go, again. Nor'easter brewing. Stay safe, stay warm if you can.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Napia5 wrote:
Hi, Ergon and Zorba. My 86 year old father is presently tap-dancing around the house over the election results. He isn't leaving any scuff-marks, however. He refuses to buy any shoes that are not marked "Made in the USA", and our shoe factories have all been outsourced.

The spirit of the American worker is alive and well, and kicking up a storm today.


Hey Nap that sounds delightful.. and grandpa is right

The fat cats outsource to places where kids wind up doing the work (this includes British firms and so many others it includes well-known multinationals) and back home, businesses collapse, British politicians do things like this while telling everyone they have to tighten their belts, namely, they have money offshore wound around all kinds of different avenues making it hard to trace.

I'll say one thing, the products actually made in America, I noticed were always really good quality. What we've been getting though is China being masters at copying stuff and so they've been crashing markets too as nobody can compete with a billion slave labourers and no human rights. They try it on with me too sending me stuff to do for more than 200% less than the going rates. There's no bit of machinery they aren't making, but it's like what was Hong Kong quality, use it once, with difficulty, have it break, throw it away; what I'd do for an American made brake line flaring tool, precision made from high-quality steel!!! Have two Chinese ones, they're very crude, cost nothing but what's the use.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Napia5 wrote:
Here we go, again. Nor'easter brewing. Stay safe, stay warm if you can.


Again!!!???

God, that's bad.

I didn't get it, Easter, was wondering what time it is

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

zorba wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
Hi, Ergon and Zorba. My 86 year old father is presently tap-dancing around the house over the election results. He isn't leaving any scuff-marks, however. He refuses to buy any shoes that are not marked "Made in the USA", and our shoe factories have all been outsourced.

The spirit of the American worker is alive and well, and kicking up a storm today.


Hey Nap that sounds delightful.. and grandpa is right

The fat cats outsource to places where kids wind up doing the work (this includes British firms and so many others it includes well-known multinationals) and back home, businesses collapse, British politicians do things like this while telling everyone they have to tighten their belts, namely, they have money offshore wound around all kinds of different avenues making it hard to trace.

I'll say one thing, the products actually made in America, I noticed were always really good quality. What we've been getting though is China being masters at copying stuff and so they've been crashing markets too as nobody can compete with a billion slave labourers and no human rights. They try it on with me too sending me stuff to do for more than 200% less than the going rates. There's no bit of machinery they aren't making, but it's like what was Hong Kong quality, use it once, with difficulty, have it break, throw it away; what I'd do for an American made brake line flaring tool, precision made from high-quality steel!!! Have two Chinese ones, they're very crude, cost nothing but what's the use.


You're right on about quality, Zorba. My family has taken to shopping at yard sales and thrift stores. Some people have looked at me with pity, feeling sad that we are poor. I have a wicked sense of the ironic, I must admit.

Actually, we are buying American Made products, at next-to-nothing prices, because everyone wants NEW.
My brother-in-law has taken to shopping for tools. What a stock-pile he has. I'll ask him about your brake tool.
We always make contributions to the thrift stores, and we are saving our landfills by using these products.
And, before anyone starts laughing at my frugality, ask yourself one question: How long did your last toaster or electric can-opener last? Buy it, and it falls apart. Fill the land-fills and buy yet another product. Put the money in the bank accounts overseas and see where it gets us.

I admit, I have to make a few compromises. Cell phones for one, and some electronic games. I don't have a cell myself, but we do own a few. And, on these things, they want you to pay MORE to buy the warranty. WTF? I need insurance to ensure that your product is good? You should be reassuring ME that it will work. People are nuts!
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:56 pm   Post subject: Re: Re:   

louiehaha wrote:
She's an ex-con self admitted drug user who posted a photo of a naked Italian man (Frederico) on her MySpace and bragged about shagging him on the train.


Didn't have the time to reply to this earlier, louiehaha but I posted excerpts Knox's MySpace pages here: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=398

Quote:
4)plane was chill, and the train wasnt hard. in fact, met a guy named frederico on the train to florence from milan, and we ended up hanging out together in florence, where he bought both deanna and i dinner and then, when deanna went to bed, we smoked up together, my first time in italy…. took pictures early the next day of neptune’s fountain and naked david, conveniently located right next to each other.


I think that's the source of the rumour "she had sex with a stranger in the train" and I don't recall Frederico on the list of sex partners she gave the prison doctor.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:30 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

ttrroonniicc wrote:
anyone watching the election

seem to have found that live streams originate from oz/ nz

have stuck with cspan

I think it's frozen in florida again (wasn't it frozen in florida in 2000)
they either can't count it or can't decide


Oh yes, says I, falling asleep at the keyboard :)

ABC News only. I wonder why I stuck with CNN in previous election cycles, and now, I'm off it completely. Ted Turner's station has turned to crap, but then, so's the BBC (Jimmy Savile anyone?) and Al-Jazeera.

Florida votes are still being counted due to the large amount of ballots cast and voting glitches that caused a large number of provisional ballots being handed out. Will announce final results soon, but Obama is till leading so far. Florida has the largest number of African American males, 23% disallowed from voting because they have previous felony records (lists compiled by a Republican company that falsified many names) so it's the challenges that hold up the system.

Ohio also had a large number of provisional ballots handed out because of delays and those cannot be counted by law until ten days have passed so that will be on November 17.

Another delay is caused by mail in ballots for Americans abroad (mostly service men and women) so they allow a week or so for that. Obama still won, in spite of the delays in the system, and only because people turned out. The only reason the race was deemed 'close' is because of the institutional impediments to voting directed against the poor and minorities.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:53 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Napia5 wrote:
zorba wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
Hi, Ergon and Zorba. My 86 year old father is presently tap-dancing around the house over the election results. He isn't leaving any scuff-marks, however. He refuses to buy any shoes that are not marked "Made in the USA", and our shoe factories have all been outsourced.

The spirit of the American worker is alive and well, and kicking up a storm today.


Hey Nap that sounds delightful.. and grandpa is right

The fat cats outsource to places where kids wind up doing the work (this includes British firms and so many others it includes well-known multinationals) and back home, businesses collapse, British politicians do things like this while telling everyone they have to tighten their belts, namely, they have money offshore wound around all kinds of different avenues making it hard to trace.

I'll say one thing, the products actually made in America, I noticed were always really good quality. What we've been getting though is China being masters at copying stuff and so they've been crashing markets too as nobody can compete with a billion slave labourers and no human rights. They try it on with me too sending me stuff to do for more than 200% less than the going rates. There's no bit of machinery they aren't making, but it's like what was Hong Kong quality, use it once, with difficulty, have it break, throw it away; what I'd do for an American made brake line flaring tool, precision made from high-quality steel!!! Have two Chinese ones, they're very crude, cost nothing but what's the use.


You're right on about quality, Zorba. My family has taken to shopping at yard sales and thrift stores. Some people have looked at me with pity, feeling sad that we are poor. I have a wicked sense of the ironic, I must admit.

Actually, we are buying American Made products, at next-to-nothing prices, because everyone wants NEW.
My brother-in-law has taken to shopping for tools. What a stock-pile he has. I'll ask him about your brake tool.
We always make contributions to the thrift stores, and we are saving our landfills by using these products.
And, before anyone starts laughing at my frugality, ask yourself one question: How long did your last toaster or electric can-opener last? Buy it, and it falls apart. Fill the land-fills and buy yet another product. Put the money in the bank accounts overseas and see where it gets us.

I admit, I have to make a few compromises. Cell phones for one, and some electronic games. I don't have a cell myself, but we do own a few. And, on these things, they want you to pay MORE to buy the warranty. WTF? I need insurance to ensure that your product is good? You should be reassuring ME that it will work. People are nuts!


Good for you, Napia5, and good for your dad too. When we arrived here out first TV was a 26" RCA console made in Canada and that lasted 20 years. Nowadays the warranty on the Korean TV's is a year! My mother in law got a job in a factory welding coils on Canadian made ovens (still a proud member of the electrical worker's union) but now all the fridges and stoves in Sears are Samsungs and whatnot made in China or Korea. The digital timer goes out with an electrical surge and you can't bake unless you buy a new unit, cost $300+ That's why people are forced to buy extended warranties; a rip off. We live in the middle of a large swath of farmland, yet an American came up and bought the only cannery factory in the Niagara region, closed it down, and shipped the machinery to Mexico.

In the end, what we can all do is protect our neighbour's jobs (and our own) by buying only products made in our own country. An increasingly hard task nowadays.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:26 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

That's one of the great things about the age of the internet, Ergon. Research. You can sit in the comfort of your home and learn all about the product you are seeking to purchase, and find out where it was manufactured.

Please don't laugh when I tell you, the biggest thing that sent me on my American-made quest was, of all things, pencils. My grandkids were burning through pencils at an astounding rate a few years ago, and I just plain didn't understand it. I couldn't keep them in pencils no matter what I did. Sent them to school one day with brand-new ones, and they came home a few days later with nubs. I would sharpen one, and then they would show me that the tip of the pencil would come out. WTH? I never was fond of the plastic, mechanical ones, like the ones so common in the Dollar Stores, and thinking more about it, I discovered that it was the quality of the pencil causing the problem.

The graphite in the pencils was inferior. It couldn't withhold the pressure from the sharpening, and would fracture inside the pencil.

So, I started researching pencils on the internet, found a wonderful, made in the USA product that I purchase by the gross, and I STILL run out of pencils, because the children pass them out to friends at school who are, of course, always running out of pencils! And, as an added chuckle to this, my hand-crank pencil sharpener has just turned 55 years old, and is still going strong.

Some day, when I am feeling nostalgic again, I'll share my story about my quest for quality thread. But, that's for another day.


Last edited by Napia5 on Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:50 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Napia5 wrote:
That's one of the great things about the age of the internet, Ergon. Research. You can sit in the comfort of your home and learn all about the product you are seeking to purchase, and find out where it was manufactured.

Please don't laugh when I tell you, the biggest thing that sent me on my American-made quest was, of all things, pencils. My grandkids were burning through pencils at an astounding rate a few years ago, and I just plain didn't understand it. I couldn't keep them in pencils no matter what I did. Sent them to school one day with brand-new ones, and they came home a few days later with nubs. I would sharpen one, and then they would show me that the tip of the pencil would come out. WTH? I never was fond of the plastic, mechanical ones, like the ones so common in the Dollar Stores, and thinking more about it, I discovered that it was the quality of the pencil causing the problem.

The graphite in the pencils was inferior. It couldn't withhold the pressure from the sharpening, and would fracture inside the pencil.

So, I started researching pencils on the internet, found a wonderful, made in the USA product that I purchase by the gross, and I STILL run out of pencils, because the children pass them out to friends at school who are, of course, always running out of pencils! And, as an added chuckle to this, my hand-crank pencil sharpener has just turned 55 years old, and is still going strong.

Some day, when I am feeling nostalgic again, I'll share my story about my quest for quality thread. But, that's for another day.



Hi Nap, yes formally, objects were made to be the strongest, best-designed, etc, but with progress, computerization allowed a manufacturer/product creator, to determine exactly how long a thing will last, and the trend became to make things not last too long, so that people have to keep buying new stuff.

In some countries where production was taken over from the original country, and the company also came under new ownership, the products would often become inferior, sometimes or often, obviously, because of the different kind of infrastructure, meaning, in America/Britain/Germany, etc, if a thing was needed it was simply made or was already being produced at home, you put a company in China or India and this may be different, Fenders went to every country imaginable and it is and was well-known that the very best Fender guitars are the originals, produced and invented in the USA.

When a man like Romney outsources everything, to some place, maybe where there are not even human rights, outsources because it is far cheaper on labour costs, then, it makes car firms collapse at home, the ones that produced the very first vehicles, sewing machine companies that were innovative and the originators, etc, and so a person/small group profits vastly, by actually destroying his/her own backyard, or front yard as you see it and not truly helping those far away who he/she exploits, at ridiculously low rates.

Chinese and Indian companies try to engage me for less than 200% of the going rates, and they're serious! I cannot blame them though.
But companies outsource to those countries, as those people say we'll do it for you, which means a project gets outsourced all the way to India from the USA or Europe, and then those in India contact people back in the original country, like housewives or anyone they can get to give them the info they need, and so the markets are destroyed through undercutting.

That sounds so sad about the pencils, *I pictured your grand kids doing their best and the pencil breaking all the time and messing up their drawings/work and no fault of their own.

I'm guessing that the things still produced in America continue to be superior quality, maybe an old-fashioned thing that is part of people, the pride in your work, and wanting to be best at stuff - which is no bad thing this competitive spirit whilst delivering good things - is what leads to great things.
However, business sure needs doing differently, as everyone wants to feed and house their kids or even themselves, which isn't too much to want as a human.


Another issue, that creep Chunky, er sorry Trumpy

Christ, he is a bad person, what a complete buffoon, if someone like him had fingers on buttons to bombs nobody would be safe, I was already disgusted by what he is up to in Scotland, terrorising the people and bullying them into submission all to get his own way, because he thinks his connection to Scotland by blood ages ago, gives him some right and urgency forcing him to need to destroy the environment and impose a silly golf course on everyone, golf pros said they doubted anyone would take to wanting to go there, it rains most of the time or isn't exactly Florida.
That nonsense he came out with about Mr Obama, hopeless.

Okay, b2work

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ah, yes. The Donald. I'm guessing that, five years ago, the Knox clan felt that having Trump champion their cause was a total win for them.
As time progresses, and The Donald continues to open his mouth with more and more over the edge absurdities, he is increasingly becoming an embarrassment to all but the most rabid of thinkers.

Truthfully, I would never shut him up at this point. The more talking he does, the more he convinces us that he would benefit from a time-out and a soft-walled, dimly-lit room, a setting that I think would benefit more than one of the Groupie rabble.

I can picture all of them backing slowly away, whilst trying to mumble reassurances that he is still the man, he is still The Donald. Eyes darting rapidly, trying to pin down the nearest exits.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Thinking of all those who are in the storms path. up to 30 cms snow expected. No heat or electricity yet. The richest country in the world needs to rethink its priorities.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

This basically brings me back full-circle to our other conversation. I have a challenge for The Donald.

Yo, Donald. Got pride, do ya? Put your money where your mouth is. You stand to help the areas where you have major holdings, that have been virtually destroyed by the Superstorm Sandy. Wanna be patriotic?

OK, Donald.
Hire up our citizens. and rebuild your properties, using only American-Made products. No cheap, substandard, foreign junk for us.
We will all then allow you to hang a sign on the front of your buildings, stating,"This is the house that America built."
Care for your country, do ya? Prove it.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:02 pm   Post subject: DONALD TRUMP   

Image


"You've Been Trumped ~ The Movie.

http://www.youvebeentrumped.com/youvebe ... MOVIE.html
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:50 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Speaking of movies, it seems that Saul Kassin is appearing in one to be released this month.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9HL5virxAw
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Offline questionx


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

I'm not as familiar with this case as others - and I know Meredith's English bank was the first number in her phone so could have been dialed that night by mistake not to mention by someone other than herself....

But recently I have been wondering if the break-in was staged not after the murder but beforehand, might have originally been intended by Amanda / Raffaele / Rudy to justify using Meredith's rent money for drugs and could explain the phone call from Meredith's phone to her English bank about an hour after she was last seen by her friend Sophie - if the stolen bank cards were also missing at that early stage perhaps she was giving some consideration to the thought of cancelling them?

This would still allow for numerous scenarios - Meredith may have been unaware when starting to dial her bank that the break in was staged, or somewhat aware of the possibility or ultimately became fully aware. Indeed, this could even be the initial source of conflict in the cottage...

Forgive me - I know there may be reasons this theory won't fly or myriad discussions about it previously, but my searching the site yielded over 500 results and it was too much to sift through - so I'd be grateful if you could give your thoughts!

hbc)
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

questionx wrote:
I'm not as familiar with this case as others - and I know Meredith's English bank was the first number in her phone so could have been dialed that night by mistake not to mention by someone other than herself....

But recently I have been wondering if the break-in was staged not after the murder but beforehand, might have originally been intended by Amanda / Raffaele / Rudy to justify using Meredith's rent money for drugs and could explain the phone call from Meredith's phone to her English bank about an hour after she was last seen by her friend Sophie - if the stolen bank cards were also missing at that early stage perhaps she was giving some consideration to the thought of cancelling them?

This would still allow for numerous scenarios - Meredith may have been unaware when starting to dial her bank that the break in was staged, or somewhat aware of the possibility or ultimately became fully aware. Indeed, this could even be the initial source of conflict in the cottage...

Forgive me - I know there may be reasons this theory won't fly or myriad discussions about it previously, but my searching the site yielded over 500 results and it was too much to sift through - so I'd be grateful if you could give your thoughts!

hbc)



Hello, questionx and welcome to PMF. Yes, this possibility was discussed at a range of times early on in the case and in fact does remain a possibility.

However, I don't believe this is what happened, for a variety of reasons. For a start, had the staging happened BEFORE the murder simply to cover their theft of money then they would have selected a better window for the staging, corresponding to the most obvious entry point for a burglary...the kitchen window. For, in the event of a staging to cover a theft, it would not have been necessary to hide the staged break-in from the observer as they entered the cottage. On the contrary, in that event, where it would have been a piece of theatre for Meredith's benefit, it would have been preferable for the 'break-in' to be obvious and clear the moment one stepped into the cottage, as it would have been had the kitchen window been broken, rather then the staged break-in being essentially 'hidden away' in Filomena's room as it was. The only reason to hide the staging away would have been to have given Knox and Sollecito the means to 'innocently' potter around the flat (in reality, corrupting the crime scene and adding final touches to the partial clean-up and staging) before 'discovering' the 'break-in' and raising the alarm. That would only have been necessary if the staging were to cover a murder, rather then a theft before the murder.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

that Trumpo pic is scary

strike a light squire

Just wondering, about him, I mean I don't admire money that way, like he sdoes, as in living for the stuff, but as he has ripped so much of the stuff, got to thinking he must have been hard on others, like walk all over them, because seeing now how nasty he is, that's what came to mind. Imagine, ... to be like him you have to be acapable of throwing rocks at yers granny, or throw people out on to the freezing streets, in fact I bet he was 10 and had one of those used car salesman suits he wears, with the dodgy ties and shirts and hair and his mom was about fed up wit him and told him it's a pity you wasn't born during the Second World War son, I'd have sent you off to the front line, can't you tawk bout nuffin other than money, twak tawk tawk Donaldo but you aint saying much, now, be a good boy and go play on the highway.

Watchyew want me ta do that for mam, aint those cars dangerous?

Nar, you'll love it son, go on.

People are often as nutty as fruitcakes
even my gran used to go on like the war was still on, she didn't have Domaldos money, and she wasn't as horrid, but, I think those years of rationing affected her, as me, I was so scared of doing something wrong I nevwr once even dared open the pantry, or larder as they used to call those cupboards. Now one day, she was ranting away at me accusing me of eating stuff, but, as it turned out it hads been El Topo Gigio, she used to cook lovely things but you got that one plate and with diffculty more, after cursing about you must think I'm made of money.

Back in those days in Britain, spaghetti was called macaroni came in tins in creamy stuff and was eaten like a deesrt I reckon if you gave that to an Italian he/she would have a fit, so I must have been about 16 or maybe 20 before I ate pasta,

Fruit, most of it came in syrupy tins too, in fact I got back from India and had been eating as a veggie almost vegan, for about 5 years and I opened a cupboard at my sister's place whereupon about 20,000 tins almost took my head clean off, couldn't believe they were still eating all that stuff. Anyway, I got up at 5.45 an immediately started work, right here, then non-stop at top speed until 5, I do wonder what the hell I'm up to doing this stuff.
Ready to go back to bed, but, I could eat a horse, well, half.

Wonder whgat horses say, they're alkways hungry, almost like those Pandas; I could eat a human, no, they're veggies, even vegans, as they wear iron shoes.

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Offline questionx


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Michael wrote:
questionx wrote:
I'm not as familiar with this case as others - and I know Meredith's English bank was the first number in her phone so could have been dialed that night by mistake not to mention by someone other than herself....

But recently I have been wondering if the break-in was staged not after the murder but beforehand, might have originally been intended by Amanda / Raffaele / Rudy to justify using Meredith's rent money for drugs and could explain the phone call from Meredith's phone to her English bank about an hour after she was last seen by her friend Sophie - if the stolen bank cards were also missing at that early stage perhaps she was giving some consideration to the thought of cancelling them?

This would still allow for numerous scenarios - Meredith may have been unaware when starting to dial her bank that the break in was staged, or somewhat aware of the possibility or ultimately became fully aware. Indeed, this could even be the initial source of conflict in the cottage...

Forgive me - I know there may be reasons this theory won't fly or myriad discussions about it previously, but my searching the site yielded over 500 results and it was too much to sift through - so I'd be grateful if you could give your thoughts!

hbc)



Hello, questionx and welcome to PMF. Yes, this possibility was discussed at a variety of times early on in the case and in fact does remain a possibility.

However, I don't believe this is what happened, for a variety of reasons. For a start, had the staging happened BEFORE the murder simply to cover their theft of money then they would have selected a better window for the staging, corresponding to the most obvious entry point for a burglary...the kitchen window. For, in the event of a staging to cover a theft, it would not have been necessary to hide the staged break-in from the observer as they entered the cottage. On the contrary, in that event, where it would have been a piece of theatre for Meredith's benefit, it would have been preferable for the 'break-in' to be obvious and clear the moment one stepped into the cottage, as it would have been had the kitchen window been broken, rather then the staged break-in being essentially 'hidden away' in Filomena's room as it was. The only reason to hide the staging away would have been to have given Knox and Sollecito the means to 'innocently' potter around the flat (in reality, corrupting the crime scene and adding final touches to the partial clean-up and staging) before 'discovering' the 'break-in' and raising the alarm. That would only have been necessary if the staging were to cover a murder, rather then a theft before the murder.


I see your point.

Although many others have pointed out that if the 'break in' was indeed staged, i.e. merely a piece of theatre for everyone else's benefit, it would have been preferable for it to have been staged at a more realistic entry point and possibly for the glass fragments not to look like the last things to have fallen - I mean, it does seem widely accepted this break-in was poorly staged anyway... so in that context does F's room being selected really rule out what I am considering?

You mentioned there were a variety of reasons why you didn't think the break-in was originally designed cover the robbery and only later became promoted to covering murder and said the reason you were giving was only 'for a start' - I am just wondering what other reasons were considered?

Or could you provide me with the links to those discussions, if I am just going over old ground, lol

mop-)
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Offline questionx


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Something I sense about Knox... from Antonio Curatolo's description of her hanging around outside the cottage that night, from her multiple takes at explaining to the police where she was the whole evening, from her sudden outbursts in restaurants and police stations... is that she was constantly eyeing boundaries and willing herself to make leaps.

What you say about "hiding the break-in away" really speaks to me, but I wonder if it could have occurred as an earlier or smaller impulse in a different context than we have become accustomed to. Perhaps the long night had an even greater ebb and flow than we know, not least in terms of Knox's scheming and daring and maybe she sort of leant forward and back a number of times, in terms of what she wished or dared to do, if you see what I mean. Maybe she hid the break in away in F's room, but for slightly different reasons and we are grafting something that's true onto a not equally true bigger picture?

There is a danger of our becoming addicted to narratives. Part of that is healthy, it's the process of deduction, I suppose. For example: one can clearly deduce that AK & RS were definitely present and involved in this crime. But it can be dangerous too. Such as: this is precisely how the struggle ensued or this is precisely when the break in occurred or this is precisely who took the lead (none of which I am suggesting anyone here is saying, by the way!)..

I mean, there are people who reckon that because Rudy had intercourse with the victim and appears to have left directly after her murder, he was the only person responsible, but that's not deduction at all and we reject it. So I am just wondering if this break in we hold up, which was by it's very nature meant to be a false trail, has three basic layers rather than two. If it was originally related to the robbery, became promoted to being a cover for murder and finally was considered in some parts of the world as not a cover for anything - a real break in!

In short, I am wondering if we should be so sure this piece of staging was conceived with the same pretend actions in mind that we now visualise or if the truth was more complex, or more simple if you prefer!

One reason I am considering this is to get a handle on how it all started. I do think what Massei suggested about the argument over money sounds real. I also sense the phonecall to the bank may have been real too. Next, I am trying to get a real sense of how characters and desires and temperaments of the trio would have engaged with that of the victim, what early shape that all would have took - and that is when the notion of the break-in occuring much earlier starts to seem reasonable and when I start to look for reasons to rule it out.


Last edited by questionx on Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:29 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

questionx wrote:
I see your point.

Although many others have pointed out that if the 'break in' was indeed staged, i.e. merely a piece of theatre for everyone else's benefit, it would have been preferable for it to have been staged at a more realistic entry point and possibly for the glass fragments not to look like the last things to have fallen - I mean, it does seem widely accepted this break-in was poorly staged anyway... so in that context does F's room being selected really rule out what I am considering?

You mentioned there were a variety of reasons why you didn't think the break-in was originally designed cover the robbery and only later became promoted to covering murder and said the reason you were giving was only 'for a start' - I am just wondering what other reasons were considered?

Or could you provide me with the links to those discussions, if I am just going over old ground, lol


'Others' who may have pointed out that another window at a more obvious entry point would have been 'preferable', are right, it would have been 'preferable'...but in this case, the preferred window wouldn't have been the right window to break. The preferred window would have been the kitchen window, the obvious entry point, but since the kitchen is the first room you enter on entering the cottage it would have been obvious immediately to whoever stepped in the front door, including Amanda, requiring the alarm to be raised immediately. That was unacceptable. That window therefore, was unsuitable to Amanda's purposes. Therefore, in this case, the second best and less preferable window was the best window for Amanda and Raffaele's purposes. The glass on top of the clothing I put down simply to their lack of actual practical experience in breaking and entering, their rushing or both.

As for the previous discussion on the matter, I have as much knowledge about its exact location as you do and just like you, would have to use the forum search engine to find it. That said, I fear much of that discussion may have been when we were on Steve Huff's Haloscan and when on The True Crime Weblog Message Board, neither of which remain online.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

questionx wrote:
You mentioned there were a variety of reasons why you didn't think the break-in was originally designed cover the robbery and only later became promoted to covering murder and said the reason you were giving was only 'for a start' - I am just wondering what other reasons were considered?


Sorry, I missed this part of your question previously. Well, another reason is Rudy Guede. He made it clear in his statements that there was no form of staging apparent at the cottage before he left, something he had no reason to lie about especially since it was he that drew attention to the fact that there had been a theft in the first place.

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Offline questionx


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Michael, it's not that I am rejecting your logic - I'm merely suggesting it's far from conclusive and wondering what other reasons you have, given that you mentioned having various reasons for thinking the break-in was staged after the murder...

I am merely trying to rule out the notion of the break in being staged earlier, not trying to advocate it!
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Offline questionx


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Michael wrote:
questionx wrote:
You mentioned there were a variety of reasons why you didn't think the break-in was originally designed cover the robbery and only later became promoted to covering murder and said the reason you were giving was only 'for a start' - I am just wondering what other reasons were considered?


Sorry, I missed this part of your question previously. Well, another reason is Rudy Guede. He made it clear in his statements that there was no form of staging apparent at the cottage before he left, something he had no reason to lie about especially since it was he that drew attention to the fact that there had been a theft in the first place.


That strikes me as a bit circular also...
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:47 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

questionx wrote:
What you say about "hiding the break-in away" really speaks to me, but I wonder if it could have occurred as an earlier or smaller impulse in a different context than we have become accustomed to. Perhaps the long night had an even greater ebb and flow than we know, not least in terms of Knox's scheming and daring and maybe she sort of leant forward and back a number of times, in terms of what she wished or dared to do, if you see what I mean. Maybe she hid the break in away in F's room, but for slightly different reasons and we are grafting something that's true onto a not equally true bigger picture?


I honestly can't think of any other reason for Knox wanting or needing to hide the 'break-in', other then to buy her much needed time in that cottage and provide an excuse for her to be there for a long period of time without having raised the alarm, in order to help cover herself for the murder. Had it been simply to cover the theft, then there would have been no reason not to have broken the kitchen window or the balcony window or even Meredith's window instead, each would have been guaranteed to have been discovered by Meredith almost immediately as desired and explain the theft, and two of those windows would have been far more obvious and believable entry points. In the case of the murder, Amanda didn't really have a choice which window to break, it had to be Filomena's.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

questionx wrote:
Michael wrote:
questionx wrote:
You mentioned there were a variety of reasons why you didn't think the break-in was originally designed cover the robbery and only later became promoted to covering murder and said the reason you were giving was only 'for a start' - I am just wondering what other reasons were considered?


Sorry, I missed this part of your question previously. Well, another reason is Rudy Guede. He made it clear in his statements that there was no form of staging apparent at the cottage before he left, something he had no reason to lie about especially since it was he that drew attention to the fact that there had been a theft in the first place.


That strikes me as a bit circular also...


How so? It's pure cold logic.

If Rudy is going to raise the fact of the theft, unsolicited (remember, the police didn't even know about the theft of the money until he told them), why not also tell them about the broken window, if that was so? Indeed, why go the opposite route and say the window was not broken? If there was a staging before the murder, it potentially helps Rudy's narrative (his claim Meredith was furious with Amanda for stealing her money) and it certainly doesn't harm it. He therefore, has no reason to deny the fact of evidence of a staging before the murder if there in fact was one.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

questionx wrote:
Michael, it's not that I am rejecting your logic - I'm merely suggesting it's far from conclusive and wondering what other reasons you have, given that you mentioned having various reasons for thinking the break-in was staged after the murder...

I am merely trying to rule out the notion of the break in being staged earlier, not trying to advocate it!


None of us were there and there is very little in this case that is 'conclusive'. All we can do is put it all together in a way that fits the known facts whilst contradicting them as little as possible. We may never know the full truth of what happened, when, in what order and why. If we did, perhaps we and Meredith's family could all go home. Unfortunately...

As I said before, what you are suggesting is 'possible' as it cannot be absolutely ruled out by the known facts. But personally, for the reasons I've given, I don't think that it is the case. But, at the end of of the day, you have to decide, as do each of us, what makes most sense to you.

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Offline questionx


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Michael wrote:
questionx wrote:
What you say about "hiding the break-in away" really speaks to me, but I wonder if it could have occurred as an earlier or smaller impulse in a different context than we have become accustomed to. Perhaps the long night had an even greater ebb and flow than we know, not least in terms of Knox's scheming and daring and maybe she sort of leant forward and back a number of times, in terms of what she wished or dared to do, if you see what I mean. Maybe she hid the break in away in F's room, but for slightly different reasons and we are grafting something that's true onto a not equally true bigger picture?


I honestly can't think of any other reason for Knox wanting or needing to hide the 'break-in', other then to buy her much needed time in that cottage and provide an excuse for her to be there for a long period of time without having raised the alarm, in order to help cover herself for the murder. Had it been simply to cover the theft, then there would have been no reason not to have broken the kitchen window or the balcony window or even Meredith's window instead, each would have been guaranteed to have been discovered by Meredith almost immediately as desired and explain the theft, and two of those windows would have been far more obvious and believable entry points. In the case of the murder, Amanda didn't really have a choice which window to break, it had to be Filomena's.


Really? I can think of many possible reasons. Maybe she was partly apprehensive about what she was doing. Maybe she wanted to hide it in some unconscious way. Or couldn't decide herself how quickly she wanted it to be discovered. Maybe the absence of Filomena for the evening made it easier to do it 'back there'. Maybe she wanted the break in and the missing money to be separated by space. Heck, Maybe she was so foolish, in that moment, that she actually thought that window was indeed a likelier entry point. I could go on, but you get the point. Speculating about why and how a break in would be staged is not easy!

Again, I am not suggesting it's likely the break in was staged to cover a mere robbery, I am merely trying to rule it out and feel some way from being able to acomplish that!
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Offline questionx


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Michael wrote:
questionx wrote:
Michael wrote:
questionx wrote:
You mentioned there were a variety of reasons why you didn't think the break-in was originally designed cover the robbery and only later became promoted to covering murder and said the reason you were giving was only 'for a start' - I am just wondering what other reasons were considered?


Sorry, I missed this part of your question previously. Well, another reason is Rudy Guede. He made it clear in his statements that there was no form of staging apparent at the cottage before he left, something he had no reason to lie about especially since it was he that drew attention to the fact that there had been a theft in the first place.


That strikes me as a bit circular also...


How so? It's pure cold logic.

If Rudy is going to raise the fact of the theft, unsolicited (remember, the police didn't even know about the theft of the money until he told them), why not also tell them about the broken window, if that was so? Indeed, why go the opposite route and say the window was not broken? If there was a staging before the murder, it potentially helps Rudy's narrative (his claim Meredith was furious with Amanda for stealing her money) and it certainly doesn't harm it. He therefore, has no reason to deny the fact of evidence of a staging before the murder if there in fact was one.


Yes, but one of the compelling things about Rudy is his hesitation to implicate Knox & Sollecito. He never implicates them fully. He always wants to, but unfailingly stops short, preferring to partly enunciate one of their names or say he saw them in the darkness or whatever. There seems to be something stopping him expressing what he knows, even now, a year after the pair were acquitted.

If he's not going to say that AK & RS were involved in the violence, it's not that remarkable that he doesn't accuse them of staging a robbery either.
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Offline questionx


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:38 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Michael wrote:
questionx wrote:
Michael, it's not that I am rejecting your logic - I'm merely suggesting it's far from conclusive and wondering what other reasons you have, given that you mentioned having various reasons for thinking the break-in was staged after the murder...

I am merely trying to rule out the notion of the break in being staged earlier, not trying to advocate it!


None of us were there and there is very little in this case that is 'conclusive'.


That's the thing...

wm)
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

questionx wrote:
Really? I can think of many possible reasons. Maybe she was partly apprehensive about what she was doing.


That seems a bit wishy-washy to me. And it certainly doesn't seem like the Amanda Knox we've all come to know, the Knox that dives in head first with full confidence even when it's totally the wrong thing to do. And there was nothing 'apprehensive' about chucking Filomena's stuff (and computer) around the room...and it was hardly an 'apprehensive sized' rock either. There was nothing apprehensive or timid about Knox's actions, just the opposite.

questionx wrote:
Maybe the absence of Filomena for the evening made it easier to do it 'back there'


Everyone was absent. Filomena's mere absence therefore, does not explain why her window was selected and not any of the three other more obvious options. And to hide something that is intended as theatre for Meredith away from Meredith is a contradiction in terms.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:58 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

questionx wrote:
Yes, but one of the compelling things about Rudy is his hesitation to implicate Knox & Sollecito. He never implicates them fully. He always wants to, but unfailingly stops short, preferring to partly enunciate one of their names or say he saw them in the darkness or whatever. There seems to be something stopping him expressing what he knows, even now, a year after the pair were acquitted.

If he's not going to say that AK & RS were involved in the violence, it's not that remarkable that he doesn't accuse them of staging a robbery either.


Yes, but none of this explains why he should deny the window was broken if indeed it actually was. His saying the window was broken doesn't require he directly accuse Knox of doing it, only that he deny that he did it. If he can say Meredith accused Amanda of taking her money, why not also freely say the window was broken if it was? Why in fact, deny that it was and stick to that story?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:27 pm   Post subject: ROBBERY FIRST, THEN MURDER?   

This indeed seems like a line of circuitous logic fortuitously designed to arrive at the only conclusion that remains: Rudy broke the window and Amanda and Raffaele weren't there :)

Which I don't believe.

questionx might, as a new member, read what he can (I suggest the Micheli and Massei reports, and please, do your own homework) then present what he thinks happened. As Michael said, we probably will never know exactly what happened, but, I'm always willing to listen to a new theory.
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Offline questionx


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:38 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Michael wrote:
questionx wrote:
Really? I can think of many possible reasons. Maybe she was partly apprehensive about what she was doing.


That seems a bit wishy-washy to me. And it certainly doesn't seem like the Amanda Knox we've all come to know, the Knox that dives in head first with full confidence even when it's totally the wrong thing to do. And there was nothing 'apprehensive' about chucking Filomena's stuff (and computer) around the room...and it was hardly an 'apprehensive sized' rock either. There was nothing apprehensive or timid about Knox's actions, just the opposite.

questionx wrote:
Maybe the absence of Filomena for the evening made it easier to do it 'back there'


Everyone was absent. Filomena's mere absence therefore, does not explain why her window was selected and not any of the three other more obvious options. And to hide something that is intended as theatre for Meredith away from Meredith is a contradiction in terms.


Michael, I gave a lot of reasons literally off the top of my head for why she (or they?) might have chosen Filomena's room aside from the quite valid possible reason that they wanted time before the break in was discovered.

I'm sure that I could come up with more. Even good ones! But even the two you responded to, I don't think have been particularly well understood by you - and I have to wonder if they were badly expressed by me to begin with!

May I just clarify that, with regard to the apprehensiveness, my very point is that I hypothesise Amanda oscillates in life and in relation to this break in and many things that ensue. So apprehensive and non-apprehensive behaviour not only doesn't undermine my point, it demonstrates it.

As for everyone being absent, that's not really true. We are talking about the girl's accommodation right now. Breaking into the boys place to stage a break in down there, LOL, is obviously not a runner. Two of the girls are at home, two away. In short, my suggestion that Filomena's absence may have been a reason her room was selected is not irrelevant.

But like I say, there are many other reasons they might have chosen her room. To say the only reason they could have done so was to stagger the discovery and allow them to prepare is a bit of a leap. It smacks of being true, but we can't insist it's the only reason. That's an unwarranted assumption. There could have been another reason they did it there. They could have just done it there....

The Rudy assumption is even more serious. He is a fundamentally dishonest and strange character. There's no traction is asking why wouldn't he reveal this / that. He is the convict behind bars, who could tell the truth, yet paradoxically he sometimes strikes me as the greatest mystery of all.

It's again not that meaningful to ask why he wouldn't have reported staging along with the robbery. Given how reluctant he was to implicate his accomplices in violence he was already tied to by DNA, he may not have felt it was a safe disclosure. He might have thought it would prove conspiracy. God knows what he thought. No - not a safe assumption to think he would have disclosed an early staging if it had indeed occurred.

But to be honest, I'm still not sure you are taking all of this in the spirit in which it's intended! I am not suggesting it's likely the break in was staged to cover the robbery and became more later! I am merely trying to rule it out! It's just not proving as easy to do so as I expected it would be!

bricks-)

Apologies if I'm coming across a bit hostile, it's not meant that way, I am just trying to work the screws on this argument - and sometimes I seem like a real dumb hard ass

em)


Last edited by questionx on Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline questionx


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:46 pm   Post subject: Re: ROBBERY FIRST, THEN MURDER?   

Ergon wrote:
This indeed seems like a line of circuitous logic fortuitously designed to arrive at the only conclusion that remains: Rudy broke the window and Amanda and Raffaele weren't there :)

Which I don't believe.

questionx might, as a new member, read what he can (I suggest the Micheli and Massei reports, and please, do your own homework) then present what he thinks happened. As Michael said, we probably will never know exactly what happened, but, I'm always willing to listen to a new theory.


Eh, I've read Micheli & Massei and believe Knox & Sollecito were present and involved...

No idea why you would imply that I am trying to exonerate them!

Did you read my first post?

That's a bizarre response, Ergon.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

questionx wrote:
Michael, I gave a lot of reasons literally off the top of my head for why she (or they?) might have chosen Filomena's room aside from the quite valid possible reason that they wanted time before the break in was discovered.



Indeed, but with respect, none of them were very good ones were they? What I'm saying is, is that one could try to argue that the staging took place before the murder (in order to cover the theft), but it requires some very tenuous arguments and shall we say...'reaching', whilst placing the staging after the murder does not. Likewise, it requires contradicting what is known (such as the testimony of Guede who had absolutely no reason to lie about this particular point), whilst placing it after the murder does not. In my experience, if something requires a degree of intellectual gymnastics to make it fit then it in all probability does not.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:03 pm   Post subject: THE OJ SIMPSON MURDER   

I lived less than two miles away from Nicole Brown's home just before the murders and am quite familiar with the route from her to OJ Simpson's. One of the things that struck me was the short time frame that was available for him to commit the murder and drive all the way back, to when he was seen entering his home by his limousine driver (and then wash up). It seemed like many people, Michael Moore and others, tried to argue conspiracy, cover up, and flawed forensics, and an entire cottage industry sprung up around these themes since.

Yet, having read all the evidence presented in news reports and subsequent books about the case, it was clear that the jury acquittal, while understandable given the element of reasonable doubt, was still, wrong, in that it ignored all the proven evidence.

Similarly, in the murder trial of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, yes, there was a very small time window in which the crime may have occurred. The evidence still places them there at the same time as Rudy Guede, and I find the Hellmann Zanetti decision, following the same circuitous route the OJ Simpson jury took to exonerate the defendants.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

questionx wrote:
But to be honest, I'm still not sure you are taking all of this in the spirit in which it's intended! I am not suggesting it's likely the break in was staged to cover the robbery and became more later! I am merely trying to rule it out! It's just not proving as easy to do so as I expected it would be!

bricks-)

Apologies if I'm coming across a bit hostile, it's not meant that way, I am just trying to work the screws on this argument - and sometimes I seem like a real dumb hard ass


Don't worry, I'm not seeing you as hostile, only rather...keen. There's nothing wrong with that...only that it requires a response of measure and balance.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:09 pm   Post subject: Re: ROBBERY FIRST, THEN MURDER?   

questionx wrote:
Ergon wrote:
This indeed seems like a line of circuitous logic fortuitously designed to arrive at the only conclusion that remains: Rudy broke the window and Amanda and Raffaele weren't there :)

Which I don't believe.

questionx might, as a new member, read what he can (I suggest the Micheli and Massei reports, and please, do your own homework) then present what he thinks happened. As Michael said, we probably will never know exactly what happened, but, I'm always willing to listen to a new theory.


Eh, I've read Micheli & Massei and believe Knox & Sollecito were present and involved...

No idea why you would imply that I am trying to exonerate them!

Did you read my first post?

That's a bizarre response, Ergon.


Thanks, but no thanks, questionx. I read all your posts, and don't particularly care to engage with you further, sorry.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

questionx wrote:
As for everyone being absent, that's not really true. We are talking about the girl's accommodation right now. Breaking into the boys place to stage a break in down there, LOL, is obviously not a runner. Two of the girls are at home, two away. In short, my suggestion that Filomena's absence may have been a reason her room was selected is not irrelevant.


Yes, but to all intents and purposes Meredith is also 'away', in that in this scenario, she is out. Meredith is not there, Laura is not there and Filomena is not there, so in effect, everyone is absent leaving Knox free to break whatever window she wishes and certainly not limiting her to Filomena's window. Do you see?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

questionx wrote:
The Rudy assumption is even more serious. He is a fundamentally dishonest and strange character. There's no traction is asking why wouldn't he reveal this / that. He is the convict behind bars, who could tell the truth, yet paradoxically he sometimes strikes me as the greatest mystery of all.


That may well be, but as we've seen with Rudy he mixes as much of the truth as possible with the lies he tells in order to make them more believable (as well as easier to remember). He only exchanges a lie for the truth when that point of truth is harmful to him. And as I explained earlier, saying the window was broken if it actually was would not only have not been harmful to him, it could have been helpful to him. Rudy lies only where it's necessary, not for the sake of it. Rudy had no reason to lie on this point. Therefore, dismissing his statement that the window wasn't broken simply by saying "Well, he's a liar", doesn't really cut it.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Sure, I see what you mean just a little more clearly about all the girls except Amanda being 'away'...

However, I am talking in the context of confused minds choosing an entry point at which to stage a break in. In such a context, I still think Filomena and Laura's genuine absence could have made their rooms more attractive choices. As could the slightly greater distinction of their rooms from the money, money-owner and money-thief. I agree it's also definite possibility that it was selected for the reason you suggest, but to be so confident about it and to say it's the only good reason - and furthermore the main reason we reckon the break-in occurred post murder - well, that's what seems 'thin' to me!

Remember, I started out by trying to discover generally accepted reasons why people think the break-in was staged post-murder and not post-robbery. My purpose right now is not to prove that Filomena's room was selected because it gave them time, it's rather to find out why people are so sure the break in was staged post-murder. So I'm coming at this from a different, but equally valid, angle.

Ergon, I have no idea why you are convinced I am trying to exonerate two people I deeply believe are responsible for murder or why you are offended so automatically and rapidly by my presence - I can only imagine you must have taken some terrible abuse off supporters of AK!

I wasn't aware we were engaging to begin with and delighted not to begin doing so... I'm sorry too...
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

questionx, I got abuse off of BOTH sides so that's no biggie :) and also, water under the bridge. And I most certainly am not offended by your presence, so please, do present your questions, which Michael is answering any way. I just exercised my own personal right to not engage in that particular question and maybe just with you, in my own, personal capacity and most definitely not as a moderator or admin for PMF.

For the benefit of all the members of PMF, when I read Micheli and Massei, my own conclusion is that the break in was staged to cover the murder, and occurred AFTER Meredith arrived home.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

questionx wrote:
However, I am talking in the context of confused minds choosing an entry point at which to stage a break in. In such a context, I still think Filomena and Laura's genuine absence could have made their rooms more attractive choices. As could the slightly greater distinction of their rooms from the money, money-owner and money-thief. I agree it's also definite possibility that it was selected for the reason you suggest, but to be so confident about it and to say it's the only good reason - and furthermore the main reason we reckon the break-in occurred post murder - well, that's what seems 'thin' to me!


Why is Amanda "confused"? She has a plan, what does she have to be confused about? Why must we suddenly assume that she was confused?

What do you mean by "genuine absence" and why should that make any difference? Absence is absence. An empty cottage is an empty cottage.

Well, to be fair, you've not really provided a "good" reason for why Amanda would have broken Filomena's window rather then the obvious window. The reasons you've attempted to offer so far can be described as tenuous at best, illogical at worst.

questionx wrote:
Remember, I started out by trying to discover generally accepted reasons why people think the break-in was staged post-murder and not post-robbery. My purpose right now is not to prove that Filomena's room was selected because it gave them time, it's rather to find out why people are so sure the break in was staged post-murder. So I'm coming at this from a different, but equally valid, angle.


I thought it was to find a reason to eliminate a post-robbery scenario. But, you seem to want absolute proof in order to do that, absolute proof I've already said early on I can't give you, so I'm not sure really what you actually want. If it's simply reasons, I've given those. Others may be able to offer you additional ones.

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Offline malvern


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

questionx wrote:
Michael wrote:
questionx wrote:
Michael, it's not that I am rejecting your logic - I'm merely suggesting it's far from conclusive and wondering what other reasons you have, given that you mentioned having various reasons for thinking the break-in was staged after the murder...

I am merely trying to rule out the notion of the break in being staged earlier, not trying to advocate it!


None of us were there and there is very little in this case that is 'conclusive'.


That's the thing...

wm)


What about The spot in Filomena's room with Meredith's blood and Amanda's DNA? Someone involved with the murder went back into Filomena's room after. For what reason other than staging or getting the makeup?
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Offline questionx


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:47 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

No, I'm simply looking for reasons!

Thanks for taking the time to discuss this point with me guys...
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

No problem :)

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Offline louiehaha


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

questionx wrote:
I'm not as familiar with this case as others - and I know Meredith's English bank was the first number in her phone so could have been dialed that night by mistake not to mention by someone other than herself....

But recently I have been wondering if the break-in was staged not after the murder but beforehand, might have originally been intended by Amanda / Raffaele / Rudy to justify using Meredith's rent money for drugs and could explain the phone call from Meredith's phone to her English bank about an hour after she was last seen by her friend Sophie - if the stolen bank cards were also missing at that early stage perhaps she was giving some consideration to the thought of cancelling them?

This would still allow for numerous scenarios - Meredith may have been unaware when starting to dial her bank that the break in was staged, or somewhat aware of the possibility or ultimately became fully aware. Indeed, this could even be the initial source of conflict in the cottage...

Forgive me - I know there may be reasons this theory won't fly or myriad discussions about it previously, but my searching the site yielded over 500 results and it was too much to sift through - so I'd be grateful if you could give your thoughts!

hbc)


The only time I’ve ever dialed my bank at that late hour is to report a missing debit/credit card. A missing card can be stolen or misplaced/recovered from the last store it was used, but the first action is the same – report it missing.

However, if Meredith returned to find a (staged) break in, that’s on a completely different level; she’d have called police not her bank. Also, if the break in was staged before she returned home, I think she’d have noticed the broken window during the long walk down the driveway, or when she passed Filomena’s room (the mess, the broken window, the draft) to drop off her books on her bed. But she had the serenity to have a mushroom snack & possibly a glass of beer, and her bank was dialed at 10pm, an hour after she returned home. Also, the mixed blood samples of Knox/Meredith taken from Filomena’s room indicate the staging was done after the murder.

I do think there's a strong possibility the theft occurred just after Meredith left that afternoon, but not the staged break in. It would be fantastic if we could have the details on the large cash deposit she made in the days leading up to her arrest.


Last edited by louiehaha on Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Also, the dialing of the bank was immediately aborted, indicating an accidental pressing of the hotkey, rather then an earnest attempt to contact the bank.

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Offline louiehaha


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:16 pm   Post subject: Re: Re:   

Ergon wrote:
louiehaha wrote:
She's an ex-con self admitted drug user who posted a photo of a naked Italian man (Frederico) on her MySpace and bragged about shagging him on the train.


Didn't have the time to reply to this earlier, louiehaha but I posted excerpts Knox's MySpace pages here: http://www.perugiamurderfile.net/viewto ... ?f=8&t=398

Quote:
4)plane was chill, and the train wasnt hard. in fact, met a guy named frederico on the train to florence from milan, and we ended up hanging out together in florence, where he bought both deanna and i dinner and then, when deanna went to bed, we smoked up together, my first time in italy…. took pictures early the next day of neptune’s fountain and naked david, conveniently located right next to each other.


I think that's the source of the rumour "she had sex with a stranger in the train" and I don't recall Frederico on the list of sex partners she gave the prison doctor.


The source is Nadeau. P11-12.
Quote:
On her September 2, 2007, MySpace page, Amanda wrote, from munich deanna and i flew off to italy together. landed in milan took a train to florence (on the way we met frederico, an italian guy who doesnt speak english). She later wrote in a personal e-mail to a friend that she had sex with him in the bathroom of the train.


Frederico didn’t make the list she wrote in her prison diary but what does that really prove? It’s not like the list has been certified to be comprehensive. Why would she write such a list in her prison diary anyway? She knew the diaries were intentionally being leaked by all three defense teams to negotiate their legal strategy. This was well documented by Porta Porta. Everything she wrote in her diary is specious at best. First she’s a known liar and she may not have wanted the extent of her liaisons, or whom she’d partnered with, public. There might be a reason she’d leave an encounter with a stranger on a train, or with a coke dealer or a lesbian affair off that list given her current situation. Secondly with her habit of mixing street drugs, alcohol, nightclubs, and strangers, she may not even know who all she’s been with, much less their names. She tells the “best truth” not the real truth, the best truth is that which paints her in the best light.

Anyway back to the scholarship, five years after Meredith’s murder, Knox is still competing with her. That’s some serious jealousy.

No honor cords Knox at graduation:


Her classmate Sara Wright, wearing honor cords:


It sure doesn't look like Knox graduated from Seattle Prep with honors.


Last edited by louiehaha on Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

louiehaha wrote:
Anyway back to the scholarship, five years after Meredith’s murder, Knox is still competing with her. That’s some serious jealousy.


As are her supporters on her behalf. Cases in point, around the anniversary of Meredith's murder, Tom Wright just has to bequeath in his will a sum to Amanda's school in Amanda's name in order to compete with the scholarship created in Meredith's name to honour Meredith, Frank Sfarzo just has to write about this and declare it to be better then Meredith's scholarship, and the groupies just have to publish new Ground Report articles all about Amanda Knox right on the anniversary of Meredith's death because so jealous are they of Meredith Kercher, they can't bare her having the limelight even for a mere few hours on the anniversary of her death. Sad small people.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Michael wrote:
louiehaha wrote:
Anyway back to the scholarship, five years after Meredith’s murder, Knox is still competing with her. That’s some serious jealousy.


As are her supporters on her behalf. Cases in point, around the anniversary of Meredith's murder, Tom Wright just has to bequeath in his will a sum to Amanda's school in Amanda's name in order to compete with the scholarship created in Meredith's name to honour Meredith, Frank Sfarzo just has to write about this and declare it to be better then Meredith's scholarship, and the groupies just have to publish new Ground Report articles all about Amanda Knox right on the anniversary of Meredith's death because so jealous are they of Meredith Kercher, they can't bare her having the limelight even for a mere few hours on the anniversary of her death. Sad small people.


Hey Michael, it's great to see you back!
Yes, It's absolutely revolting.
Old Judge Heavey can't give it a rest either, he's now hitting up the Rotary Clubs in southern California.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:01 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Thanks, louiehaha, it's great to see you too, along with everyone else :)

I know. I just can't understand how people can be so small to feel so threatened and jealous of an innocent girl who has been dead for five years, that they cannot even stand to allow the anniversary of her death to be marked in dignified piece, or to stand a scholarship created in her memory without trying to upstage it with oneupmanship stunts to promote 'their gal'. Truly horrible people. They deserve Knox and she deserves them.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:06 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Suddenly, there are 105 guests on the site. Hmmm.

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Offline questionx


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:18 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

louiehaha wrote:
questionx wrote:
I'm not as familiar with this case as others - and I know Meredith's English bank was the first number in her phone so could have been dialed that night by mistake not to mention by someone other than herself....

But recently I have been wondering if the break-in was staged not after the murder but beforehand, might have originally been intended by Amanda / Raffaele / Rudy to justify using Meredith's rent money for drugs and could explain the phone call from Meredith's phone to her English bank about an hour after she was last seen by her friend Sophie - if the stolen bank cards were also missing at that early stage perhaps she was giving some consideration to the thought of cancelling them?

This would still allow for numerous scenarios - Meredith may have been unaware when starting to dial her bank that the break in was staged, or somewhat aware of the possibility or ultimately became fully aware. Indeed, this could even be the initial source of conflict in the cottage...

Forgive me - I know there may be reasons this theory won't fly or myriad discussions about it previously, but my searching the site yielded over 500 results and it was too much to sift through - so I'd be grateful if you could give your thoughts!

hbc)


The only time I’ve ever dialed my bank at that late hour is to report a missing debit/credit card. A missing card can be stolen or misplaced/recovered from the last store it was used, but the first action is the same – report it missing.

However, if Meredith returned to find a (staged) break in, that’s on a completely different level; she’d have called police not her bank. Also, if the break in was staged before she returned home, I think she’d have noticed the broken window during the long walk down the driveway, or when she passed Filomena’s room (the mess, the broken window, the draft) to drop off her books on her bed. But she had the serenity to have a mushroom snack & possibly a glass of beer, and her bank was dialed at 10pm, an hour after she returned home. Also, the mixed blood samples of Knox/Meredith taken from Filomena’s room indicate the staging was done after the murder.

I do think there's a strong possibility the theft occurred just after Meredith left that afternoon, but not the staged break in. It would be fantastic if we could have the details on the large cash deposit she made in the days leading up to her arrest.


Thanks Louiehaha.

This is exactly the kind of response I was hoping for, from someone familiar with the case and is one that allows me slowly slide my sweet potato of a theory through a motorised vegetable shredder and watch it turn to pulp!

I was just trying to rule the idea of staged break-in early evening as a means of explaining robbery out - but even though it helps me do precisely that I also find it makes me wonder even more about the theft.

Yes, maybe the theft occurred earlier. Because I have just never seemed able to shake the feeling that the theft was more than theatre and maybe even part of what instigated everything. It's absolutely true what you say about Meredith being far more likely to call the police after discovering a break in, but if as you consider there was no break in when she returned but theft had occurred and her cards were included in that theft she might easily take a while to clarify this, particularly if she was tired and unsure whether her possibly high flatmate was responsible and so maybe a call to the bank was deliberately made. The call being cut short does not prove it was not an intentional call, any more than a cut-short call being made to the bank proves it was a deliberate in nature - either could very easily be the case and there is also the possibility that someone stopped her from making the call either physically or with an admission about the money...

I just sense these issues are interwoven and the fabric of the escalating difficulties that night.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:30 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

questionx wrote:
The call being cut short does not prove it was not an intentional call


In which case she'd have called the right number, rather then the wrong number which was on her speedial. The speedial number was for calling her bank when in England and so didn't have the national code on it. Meredith would have known this.

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Offline questionx


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:54 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Michael wrote:
questionx wrote:
The call being cut short does not prove it was not an intentional call


In which case she'd have called the right number, rather then the wrong number which was on her speedial. The speedial number was for calling her bank when in England and so didn't have the national code on it. Meredith would have known this.


Or called the wrong unprefixed number for the bank and then truncated the call when she realised this shortcoming - we have no reason to rule out her ability to make such a trivial mistake, particularly if she was in any way oppressed or concerned!

As you say, Michael, we don't know... it's certainly a possibility.

Why is it reasonable to say she might make one minor telephonic mistake (press speed dial in error) but not another (forget the bank number is not prefixed in the country she is currently in)?

It's like we've had this exchange twice, isn't it?

Once in relation to Filomena's room and once in relation to the phone....

hugz-)

Still enjoyin' it though, lol
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Offline questionx


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 1:02 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Goodnight folks, it's lovely to be part of this forum - thanks for welcoming me!
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 1:20 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

questionx wrote:
Or called the wrong unprefixed number for the bank and then truncated the call when she realised this shortcoming - we have no reason to rule out her ability to make such a trivial mistake, particularly if she was in any way oppressed or concerned!


I think Meredith would have understood her phones and the numbers on them very well, considering she used them often every day. On the English phone all of the speedial numbers would have been to English numbers absent the national code, I really can't see Meredith forgetting this. I can however, see her striking a key by accident, since it's so easily done. I for one, do it all the time.

Yes, it's 'possible' she made a 'minor telephonic' mistake 'forgetting' it was the wrong number, but since we have zero evidence to demonstrate that's what happened. it's all so much speculative hot air.

Anything is 'possible'. It's possible aliens murdered Meredith. What is important, is what is actually evidentially and/or logically supported.

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 6:32 am   Post subject: Re: Re:   

louiehaha wrote:
Ergon wrote:
louiehaha wrote:
She's an ex-con self admitted drug user who posted a photo of a naked Italian man (Frederico) on her MySpace and bragged about shagging him on the train.


Didn't have the time to reply to this earlier, louiehaha but I posted excerpts Knox's MySpace pages here: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=398

Quote:
4)plane was chill, and the train wasnt hard. in fact, met a guy named frederico on the train to florence from milan, and we ended up hanging out together in florence, where he bought both deanna and i dinner and then, when deanna went to bed, we smoked up together, my first time in italy…. took pictures early the next day of neptune’s fountain and naked david, conveniently located right next to each other.


I think that's the source of the rumour "she had sex with a stranger in the train" and I don't recall Frederico on the list of sex partners she gave the prison doctor.


Quote:
The source is Nadeau. P11-12.


Quote:
On her September 2, 2007, MySpace page, Amanda wrote, from munich deanna and i flew off to italy together. landed in milan took a train to florence (on the way we met frederico, an italian guy who doesnt speak english). She later wrote in a personal e-mail to a friend that she had sex with him in the bathroom of the train.


Frederico didn’t make the list she wrote in her prison diary but what does that really prove? It’s not like the list has been certified to be comprehensive. Why would she write such a list in her prison diary anyway? She knew the diaries were intentionally being leaked by all three defense teams to negotiate their legal strategy. This was well documented by Porta Porta. Everything she wrote in her diary is specious at best. First she’s a known liar and she may not have wanted the extent of her liaisons, or whom she’d partnered with, public. There might be a reason she’d leave an encounter with a stranger on a train, or with a coke dealer or a lesbian affair off that list given her current situation. Secondly with her habit of mixing street drugs, alcohol, nightclubs, and strangers, she may not even know who all she’s been with, much less their names. She tells the “best truth” not the real truth, the best truth is that which paints her in the best light.

Anyway back to the scholarship, five years after Meredith’s murder, Knox is still competing with her. That’s some serious jealousy.

No honor cords Knox at graduation:


Her classmate Sara Wright, wearing honor cords:


It sure doesn't look like Knox graduated from Seattle Prep with honors.


Thanks, louiehaha. I wanted to clarify it was not in her MySpace account, for accuracy sake. I did read Angel Face (published 2010) but the original source was The Daily Mail, Dec. 03, 2007 article by Andrew Malone: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/artic ... Knoxy.html

Quote:
"Within hours of arriving in Rome, she e-mailed a former Washington University student, (not named) writing excitedly of having sex with a stranger on a train."


Now I've searched our archives "sex stranger train" and "Frederico" and all we have are unsourced statements about how her family deleted the Facebook (?) entry and that this what "she wrote In her MySpace page". No one seems to have read an actual email, which I'd love to read myself, in its entirety.

Is it possible she DID have sex on the train? Sure, given we have a named person, Phillip Setran, talking about her man eating reputation. Yes, it looks like she didn't list all her sexual partners, no fool she. But no one seems to ever have seen the email referenced by The Daily Mail. It is possible that Deanna was lying or asleep when she claims that story is untrue.

It also is possible that the Daily Mail (or Amanda Knox) made it up. Our miss, who seems to think she's a cross of Emily Dickenson and Erica Jong, might actually have cribbed an Erica Jong anecdote to impress her friends in Seattle, I do not know.

But curmudgeon that I am, I wish Barbie Nadeau actually footnoted her book to match with her many assertions, and that John Follain had an index in his otherwise excellent book.

In the past while we've been trying to post original documents and statements, as well as direct links to news reports and videos so we could have a reference tool we could rely on, direct quotes instead of the many unsourced assertions that cross into our discourse sometimes. The calendar project coming up will be a HUGE step in that direction.

Any established member will be quite welcome to volunteer to post these sources and links to a site, which then will be posted after approval, but I think Michael will make the official announcement when we're ready.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:22 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Typical Troll Mechanisms and Behaviours

1) Are polite sometimes, when they have reasons for trolling, but gradually, they slip in unpleasant things, so it is like they are patronising you, that pat on the back whilst trying to pull the rug out from under your feet
2) Introductions, many, when ordinarily, people who are genuine, don't feel a need to make it so clear, that they know nothing about the case, a bad sign, is when they announce this as a breakfast cereal-like starter, then seem to forget what they said and go on, swiftly most often, to be saying stuff that only someone who knows lots about the subject could say, or do.
3) They act kind of sympathetic to those who do genuinely feel for the things involved, like feeling sad about Meredith and for her family, so this is done, when they have an intention hidden behind what they are doing, like to try to act as if they agree with people, even so far as to sound like they also think the people accused are guilty, so that they gain your trust, so that they can gradually try to either make a fool of people, or somehow get their ideas through, that actually, those accused are not guilty.

4) Now why would certain people be up to stuff like this, like talking as though they too are assuming that the three are guilty whilst at the same time adding, gradually, that nothing can be known, and when anyone says anything even anywhere near such an idea, like on a single angle, they're in there with there smiley faces and what not confirming it, because this is what they are out to do in fact, to actually try to turn everyone into thinking, heck, they cannot be guilty. They may at first announce themselves as knowing nothing and may announce things politely but what is characteristic in their behaviour is that they swiftly can start to get personal towards people and also turn nasty, and do, swiftly, especially once you start calling them out. In this particular case, there have been one or two going under many identities, we know who they were. We haven't forgotten the ridiculous things they got up to.

5) It is an awful idea to think that certain people involved with Knox, would use this site or others and us, to work out ways to try to work out actual lines that her defence could try to use in court, because having an exercise yard where you can practice, in advance, and get all kinds of angles, thoughts, can help a person who is trying to get Knox's and Sollecito's ongoing case won for them. After all, why would Knox's members, helpers, family, lawyers, give up when they know it is in no way over yet. Though they can laugh and sneer, I doubt Knox is truly doing that, knowing that should it go the wrong way, for her, and should she simply remain in America and be aided and abetted, even by the state, the country, to do this, because of this lack of enthusiasm for extraditing own subjects, yet in spite of this, that can never be a truly comforting situation if reversed and then finally found guilty, each time said person goes out of the United States of America, even on route to a country that has no extradition treaty with Italy, said person could never relax, because if the plane did by chance get diverted, or have to land somewhere else, as does happen, Knox, who is the said person in question, could find herself being delivered back to Italy, to sit out her 25 years.

Therefore, be warned of people coming here with ill-intentions, either yet another profit-monger out to write yet another book, or worse, people directly involved with Knox using this site to work their ideas out and then to use this for Knox.

That is an awful idea then isn't it, namely, that when you are debating these things with a somebody who knows nothing, announces it, as a first, then immediately goes on to enter every kind of angle possible that could ever exist, showing that he/she does know the case very well.

Me, I'd say, let them go to their Ground Report or whatever it's name is and try to do those things there.

If you discuss things with certain people you may be helping Knox, may be helping her lawyers to work out angles for her Italian lawyers, to use in court, ideas they might never get to work out all on their own, they are doing, I think, these things as Knox and family must be far more desperate than they like to make out.

Knox will never be able to travel freely anymore if the Italians find her guilty, either by reversing the decisions made by the non-court and law rule abiding Hellmann or sending it back to trial.
One thing that Hellmann said right away, and which was ridiculous within the contextual framework of all that DEFINITELY was known, was that the only thing known was that Meredith was dead, which was cruelly insulting to all those good people concerned, meaning involved, and all of those concerned people, meaning just that, sincere.

So me, I do not accept that idea about matters being inconclusive, for one, I think it is fair to say, Knox definitely told lies and additionally fair, So did Mr Sollecito, and so have their families, these things can be verified by fact, by their very own words that were in conflict with one another, from one week or day to
the other, or month to the other.

I think it is a definite that Knox falsely accused Patrick Lumumba o f rape and murder, maybe indirectly but her actions left him open to being put away for life if nothing had happened to get him out, and up until he did get out, Ms Knox, no matter how she apologised later on, did nothing at all to reverse the effects of her lying about him.

You, whoever you may be, may conclude that her new lies in relation to the first about Patrick, supposedly explaining away, or excusing herself for this behaviour, do excuse her for these terrible acts, you might even believe her new lies about why she would have done this when after blaming him initially, to excuse her behaviour later, did not change said behaviour but just blamed that behaviour, yet again, on others, first it was Patrick's fault, then it was the fault of the police, the prosecutor, the prison staff, the interpreter, and on and on and on, because they were all against her.

Yes, I'm sure they all had a secret meeting by the light of the moon, in a sea cove by oil lamp, where they said, come here yea all and let us work out our evil plans, to have the American jailed, yes, come one and all, and let's jeopardize our own families and careers, we are all mad.

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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:26 am   Post subject: Re: Re:   

Ergon wrote:
--- snip ---

Now I've searched our archives "sex stranger train" and "Frederico" and all we have are unsourced statements about how her family deleted the Facebook (?) entry and that this what "she wrote In her MySpace page". No one seems to have read an actual email, which I'd love to read myself, in its entirety.

Is it possible she DID have sex on the train? Sure, given we have a named person, Phillip Setran, talking about her man eating reputation. Yes, it looks like she didn't list all her sexual partners, no fool she. But no one seems to ever have seen the email referenced by The Daily Mail. It is possible that Deanna was lying or asleep when she claims that story is untrue.

--- snap ---


Hi Ergon,

My opinion regarding the "sex with the stranger on a train"-topic is that we cannot know if she did or did not have sex with a stranger on a train, but even without having seen the email, we can be sure Amanda Knox wrote such email to a friend with the claim to have had sex with a stranger on a train. John Follain interviewed Amanda's family and his article was published June 15, 2008.

Quote:
Deanna makes short shrift of what the family sees as one of many slurs on Knox, an e-mail she sent to a friend in which she said she had sex with an Italian on a train during that journey. "That is so untrue. I was everywhere with her. It's true we met a guy called Federico and we had dinner with him. But nothing happened. I think Amanda was just making fun of Italian men. They stare at you a lot more than men do here. "


The correct answer would have been to deny that Amanda Knox ever made that claim, instead they only dispute the truthfulness of her statement.

Bill Edelblute expresses it best in his article Amanda Knox parents and sisters try case on tv, is Oprah new Senator Cantwell?.

Quote:
The sisters of Amanda Knox suffer the impacts- but due to whose actions?

[...]

According to news accounts of the trial, Amanda Knox had sent an email when she arrived in Perugia, Italy to attend college stating she had sex with a complete stranger on the train to school. Deanna Knox was quoted in news sources as saying that was just something Amanda made up. If the quotes in that news source are correct, Deanna doesn't dispute Amanda said that in the email but says the content of the email is "so untrue." She was with Amanda on that trip, and acknowledges they had dinner with someone named "Frederico." But Amanda lied about the rest, and that means the media spreads false slurs? Is there a problem with sorting out who is at fault here?



Bill Edelbute's article also touches on another matter concerning the insensitivity displayed by Amanda Knox's family every time they were asked about the Kerchers.

Quote:
Curt Knox dismisses impacts on Kercher family

The parents of Amanda Knox lament the limited contact they now have with their daughter due to her imprisonment, while awaiting the upcoming appeal. Only near the end of at least the ABC news account of the interview do they give any mention of the victim and the Kercher family. Here's what they have to say in comparing their loss with that of the relatives of the murdered beautiful British student. In commenting on the fact that they would not welcome a call from the Kerchers, Curt Knox explains it this way:

"We still have a chance with Amanda, and they don't with their daughter," he said, and that any such discussion might be best to take place only if the Kerchers are positive Amanda is innocent. "We still have a chance with Amanda, and they don't with their daughter." No, they don't have a chance with Meredith Kercher, because someone murdered her. Amanda Knox has been convicted of that murder, subject to appeal.


Simply put: Amanda Knox and her family = five years of lies.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 10:17 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Michael wrote:
louiehaha wrote:
Anyway back to the scholarship, five years after Meredith’s murder, Knox is still competing with her. That’s some serious jealousy.


As are her supporters on her behalf. Cases in point, around the anniversary of Meredith's murder, Tom Wright just has to bequeath in his will a sum to Amanda's school in Amanda's name in order to compete with the scholarship created in Meredith's name to honour Meredith, Frank Sfarzo just has to write about this and declare it to be better then Meredith's scholarship, and the groupies just have to publish new Ground Report articles all about Amanda Knox right on the anniversary of Meredith's death because so jealous are they of Meredith Kercher, they can't bare her having the limelight even for a mere few hours on the anniversary of her death. Sad small people.


It is so obvious, isn't it?

Catching up with the latest posts, I found the discussion about Tom Wright's endowment in honour of Amanda Knox and her family.

Does it surprise anyone else that there is not a single mention of this endowment on the Seattle Prep website? From what I understand Seattle Prep assumes Amanda Knox is innocent despite the evidence that implicates her in the murder of Meredith Kercher. Considering the facts, I am astonished Tom Wright's named endowment isn't featured more prominently on their website - or featured at all.

I feel the same way as louiehaha and Michael, they try to compete with Meredith. Comparing these two young women can only do Amanda Knox more harm.
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Offline questionx


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 10:30 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Michael wrote:
questionx wrote:
Or called the wrong unprefixed number for the bank and then truncated the call when she realised this shortcoming - we have no reason to rule out her ability to make such a trivial mistake, particularly if she was in any way oppressed or concerned!


I think Meredith would have understood her phones and the numbers on them very well, considering she used them often every day. On the English phone all of the speedial numbers would have been to English numbers absent the national code, I really can't see Meredith forgetting this. I can however, see her striking a key by accident, since it's so easily done. I for one, do it all the time.

Yes, it's 'possible' she made a 'minor telephonic' mistake 'forgetting' it was the wrong number, but since we have zero evidence to demonstrate that's what happened. it's all so much speculative hot air.

Anything is 'possible'. It's possible aliens murdered Meredith. What is important, is what is actually evidentially and/or logically supported.


Okay, so you're basically saying the idea of her mistakenly pressing the speeddial key assigned to her bank feels more likely to you - because it's something you do all the time and also because the call was immediately ended which is the normal way this is resolved by you or anybody who makes this common mistake.

One of the other possible explanations, that she actually meant to call her bank, but momentarily forgot the speedial wouldn't connect her while in Italy, so dialled but then realised her mistake and ended the call... seems much less likely to you.

Yes, I see what you are saying and actually I think it's quite likely you're right! Just like I saw what you were saying in relation to Filomena's room and thought you were likely to be right in that regard too. But as you have said many times, we can't know what happened. There are a lot of unknowns in this case, mainly within the cottage and in relation to the interactions between the four and what I would call instigation of conflict. A natural way to approach that is to tease it out. Part of teasing something out is testing various positions, many of which may not seem likely at first glance. So, Michael, while you're right that "what is important, is what is actually evidentially and/or logically supported" it's also important to consider less likely scenarios in an open-minded way.

I would say to a number of you other members, that if a person comes here and tries to tease a detail out and it is implied in one post that he is a troll and in another that he is trying to exonerate people he feels sure are guilty or has some other agenda then you cultivate an environment in which people can't ask questions.

An environment in which such a person is likely to disappear as quickly as he appeared - with not so much as sound except that of some long term members muttering "good riddance".
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 11:02 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

questionx wrote:
--- snip ---

But as you have said many times, we can't know what happened. There are a lot of unknowns in this case, mainly within the cottage and in relation to the interactions between the four and what I would call instigation of conflict. A natural way to approach that is to tease it out. Part of teasing something out is testing various positions, many of which may not seem likely at first glance. So, Michael, while you're right that "what is important, is what is actually evidentially and/or logically supported" it's also important to consider less likely scenarios in an open-minded way.

I would say to a number of you other members, that if a person comes here and tries to tease a detail out and it is implied in one post that he is a troll and in another that he is trying to exonerate people he feels sure are guilty or has some other agenda then you cultivate an environment in which people can't ask questions.

--- snap ---


I have read your posts and I am under the impression that some people - you included - believe if they think hard enough going through all possible scenarios, they will eventually figure the right one out. Like Michael, I believe we will probably never know the full truth. Not all murderers are as forthcoming as Susan Atkins.

It is not necessary to know every conversation of that tragic night to come to a conclusion of who is responsible for Meredith Kercher's murder. With every piece of evidence that implicates Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito it becomes less likely that we are dealing with a simple coincidence. There was a good reason why Curt Knox thought it was wise to hire David Marriott to influence public opinion and it wasn't to respond to inquiries from the media. They got their hands full to explain all the coincidences away. Curt Knox must have been absolutely convinced his daughter was involved otherwise he wouldn't have needed David Marriott.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

questionx wrote:
Michael wrote:
questionx wrote:
Or called the wrong unprefixed number for the bank and then truncated the call when she realised this shortcoming - we have no reason to rule out her ability to make such a trivial mistake, particularly if she was in any way oppressed or concerned!


I think Meredith would have understood her phones and the numbers on them very well, considering she used them often every day. On the English phone all of the speedial numbers would have been to English numbers absent the national code, I really can't see Meredith forgetting this. I can however, see her striking a key by accident, since it's so easily done. I for one, do it all the time.

Yes, it's 'possible' she made a 'minor telephonic' mistake 'forgetting' it was the wrong number, but since we have zero evidence to demonstrate that's what happened. it's all so much speculative hot air.

Anything is 'possible'. It's possible aliens murdered Meredith. What is important, is what is actually evidentially and/or logically supported.


Okay, so you're basically saying the idea of her mistakenly pressing the speeddial key assigned to her bank feels more likely to you - because it's something you do all the time and also because the call was immediately ended which is the normal way this is resolved by you or anybody who makes this common mistake.

One of the other possible explanations, that she actually meant to call her bank, but momentarily forgot the speedial wouldn't connect her while in Italy, so dialled but then realised her mistake and ended the call... seems much less likely to you.

Yes, I see what you are saying and actually I think it's quite likely you're right! Just like I saw what you were saying in relation to Filomena's room and thought you were likely to be right in that regard too. But as you have said many times, we can't know what happened. There are a lot of unknowns in this case, mainly within the cottage and in relation to the interactions between the four and what I would call instigation of conflict. A natural way to approach that is to tease it out. Part of teasing something out is testing various positions, many of which may not seem likely at first glance. So, Michael, while you're right that "what is important, is what is actually evidentially and/or logically supported" it's also important to consider less likely scenarios in an open-minded way.

I would say to a number of you other members, that if a person comes here and tries to tease a detail out and it is implied in one post that he is a troll and in another that he is trying to exonerate people he feels sure are guilty or has some other agenda then you cultivate an environment in which people can't ask questions.

An environment in which such a person is likely to disappear as quickly as he appeared - with not so much as sound except that of some long term members muttering "good riddance".



That is incorrect there QuentionX

It is the manner in which these traits are repeatedly seen.

One you did is this making it clear you know nothing

I mean, I am not someone who will simply take the bait, if it is that, but, it is for you to show you are genuine.

What I noticed, Michael says one thing about inconclusive and you put a moving icon up or whatever they are called...as if to say, see, one point for me because this is what I intend saying in the end.

It's like you are confirming what Hellmann said, and I dislike that, as I disliked Hellmann's manner, when he said that about the case, namely, that nothing was known.

For one supposedly knowing nothing, you seem to have all kinds of angles worked out, because you are already saying things like you disagree with the views ascertained by others, so you offer a theory, which in my view in line with what I know, of this case and others and behaviour, would be very far-fetched and simply not realistic. What I am thinking and I cannot help it because your introduction is a classic on these sites, this one and the mirror one, and a couple of others, of those that turned out to be up to some odd tricks, maybe you are not, but, well, you used the language of those people and then you immediately went on to show you actually have considered so much.

Maybe you are genuinely interested in debating things and are not weird, however, you were under no obligation to excuse yourself for being unknowledgeable.

Additionally, you were under no obligation to place all individuals into a single box by saying what you already have about views expressed, and them all being in agreement, I do not agree with everything everyone else says, so please take me out of that box of yours if you would be so kind, if you know so little how then would you know what my theory is about any burglary that was faked?

This sweeping statement way of providing categories such as ''you all here'' and ''me'' (meaning now: you Questionx) is yet another peculiar behaviourism of past outed or self-outed trolls.

Anyway, as you were, just say what you want to say, you are free to say what you like until you show abusive behaviour, and I am not responsible for telling you to stop that, that's not my department of authority, however, I'm not convinced of your sincerity, yet.

Am I allowed to tell you that? without you having a fit? Or else accusing everyone of things and so forcing your opinion/behaviour, because after all, we all would be not open to debate if we suspect anything, that's what you are saying and so we should just blindly accept that you are genuine, well, I do not, as I said, yet!

If you are going to use the terminology list as made famous by Knox trolls then sorry, I still have eyes.

Maybe then you need to study up on that, then you'll understand, others will show you the path to those people, I won't, London John, Tea with the Queen are the types of names they go by to try to convince you they are British and so on, then they go on to say whatevva, dude, that's my two cents,
spelling, if they forget, in American English too, though the more inspired or determined took/take care of writing in English by using a spelling checker, etc, clicked onto British English, that's the lengths to which some have gone.
So, sorry if I'm wrong about you, but I have reasons why alarm bells go off and you already hit a few of the classic buttons, that's all.

So sorry then, well I say sorry, tell you what, as far as I'm concerned, you do not even need to be oh-so-polite (whilst being at the ready to heap criticism), in fact, I don't like people who kiss buttocks.

So if at any time you feel like being rude just say it; I prefer someone to be rude but straight up than to be polite and fake.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 1:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Nell wrote:
It is so obvious, isn't it?

Catching up with the latest posts, I found the discussion about Tom Wright's endowment in honour of Amanda Knox and her family.

Does it surprise anyone else that there is not a single mention of this endowment on the Seattle Prep website? From what I understand Seattle Prep assumes Amanda Knox is innocent despite the evidence that implicates her in the murder of Meredith Kercher. Considering the facts, I am astonished Tom Wright's named endowment isn't featured more prominently on their website - or featured at all.


That's because, what this 'endowment' really is, is payment to the school for 'services rendered'. It's payment for their part in the Amanda Knox propaganda campaign.

After all, the endowment could just as easily been left to the UW in Knox's name instead of the school. It wasn't, because the UW didn't come out and help campaign for Amanda Knox.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 1:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

questionx wrote:
Okay, so you're basically saying the idea of her mistakenly pressing the speeddial key assigned to her bank feels more likely to you - because it's something you do all the time and also because the call was immediately ended which is the normal way this is resolved by you or anybody who makes this common mistake.


What, you never sat on your mobile phone?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 1:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

questionx wrote:
So, Michael, while you're right that "what is important, is what is actually evidentially and/or logically supported" it's also important to consider less likely scenarios in an open-minded way.


I've no problem with speculation, we've spent the last five years doing it among other things. However, I do think that it is VERY late in the day for it in the case. That is especially so when someone seems to want to use speculation (and nothing more) in an attempt to essentially rewrite elements of the narrative that don't need rewriting. It only muddys waters that a good many have spent a lot of time and effort unmuddying. If new evidence were to come out then I'd be only too happy to reassess the areas of the case to which that evidence pertains, but that isn't the case here. If some want to do so then I won't stop them, but they shouldn't at the same time expect me to be enthusiastic about taking part.

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"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Michael wrote:
questionx wrote:
Okay, so you're basically saying the idea of her mistakenly pressing the speeddial key assigned to her bank feels more likely to you - because it's something you do all the time and also because the call was immediately ended which is the normal way this is resolved by you or anybody who makes this common mistake.


What, you never sat on your mobile phone?


A discussion we've already had, at length, right down to Sony Ericsson models being more prone to that sort of error. And, because the 01 prefix was never dialed in first, it would cut off almost right away. Massei rules that the call to Abbey was made from the cottage.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:38 pm   Post subject: Re: Re:   

Nell wrote:
Hi Ergon,
My opinion regarding the "sex with the stranger on a train"-topic is that we cannot know if she did or did not have sex with a stranger on a train, but even without having seen the email, we can be sure Amanda Knox wrote such email to a friend with the claim to have had sex with a stranger on a train........
Simply put: Amanda Knox and her family = five years of lies.


Oh I agree with all of the above, Nell, simply putting it out there that if anyone has the complete e-mail, verbatim or whatever form, you can post it here :)
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Offline Zopi


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:14 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

with apologies if already posted here.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne ... dered.html

http://www.spokesman.com/blogs/endnotes ... sentenced/
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   



Thanks, Zopi. I had a chucke over the comments in the Spokesman.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 5:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Nell wrote:
It is so obvious, isn't it?

Catching up with the latest posts, I found the discussion about Tom Wright's endowment in honour of Amanda Knox and her family.

Does it surprise anyone else that there is not a single mention of this endowment on the Seattle Prep website? From what I understand Seattle Prep assumes Amanda Knox is innocent despite the evidence that implicates her in the murder of Meredith Kercher. Considering the facts, I am astonished Tom Wright's named endowment isn't featured more prominently on their website - or featured at all....


Looking at Tom Wright's IMDB profile,
Quote:
Biography for Thomas Lee Wright

Date of Birth
Moscow, Idaho, USA

Mini Biography
Thomas Lee Wright is perhaps best known for penning the original screenplay for the Warner Brothers hit "New Jack City" starring Wesley Snipes, Chris Rock and Ice-T, and for his political documentaries, including "Eight-Tray Gangster: The Making of a Crip" (Discovery Channel) which tells the story of L.A.'s Rodney King riots from a gangmember's perspective, and the award-winning WTO "Battle-in-Seattle" chronicle "Trade Off" (International Human Rights Watch).

A Minnesota native, Wright attended Harvard College, receiving a degree in English literature, and Trinity College, Dublin, studying Irish theater and playing point guard for its national championship basketball team.

Moving to Los Angeles, he became a story editor at Walt Disney and Columbia Pictures, before serving as a creative executive at Paramount Pictures, where he helped develop "48 Hours", "Trading Places" and "Flashdance", among other movies. Soon after leaving corporate ranks, Wright's original story treatment for "The Godfather,Part Three" launched his screenwriting career and led to writing projects for every major studio and many of Hollywood's top producers, including Peter Guber, Dino De Laurentiis, Mike Medavoy, Daniel Melnick, Don Simpson, and Casey Silver, among others. Wright also co-wrote a pair of widely-used film school texts, "American Screenwriters" and "Working In Hollywood".


here's what I think. Yes, he might well be motivated solely by altruistic motives, and 'his daughter was a friend of Amanda Knox'. But just as Judge Michael Heavey seems to be using his unwilling, protesting daughter to further his own post judgeship political ambitions, so, too, Thomas L Wright may be hoping to profit from the murder of Meredith Kercher by making his own Amanda Knox documentary and screenplay.

Which market for will, once the SC rules, evaporate completely.
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Offline louiehaha


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   



Elizabeth Huff, Amanda Knox’s grandmother, along with several other family members, is a member of a Facebook group (featured in the group's banner) that has posted a letter of protest to Cosmopolitan magazine over the award recently bestowed upon Stephanie Kercher. Among other things, the letter demands an apology to the Knox family by the Kercher family. The group "Free Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito" appears to be moderated by Michelle Moore, certainly no outsider to the Knox/Mellas clan herself. Link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/10975028253/

Zorba: You may want to stop reading here.
Quote:
Hey - Below is a letter I just wrote this to Cosmopolitan who is about to give a hollow award to Stephanie Kercher. The announcement on the BBC site was full of the usual veiled suspicions. If you feel as I do then please write to pat.mcnulty@hearst.co.uk

Dear Cosmopolitan

I am disappointed that you have chosen to honour the sister of the unfortunate Meredith Kercher. Although I am sure it is true that she gave up a lot in order to support her parents and focus on the trial, it is equally true that she and her family have never acknowledged the terrible miscarriage of justice in which they participated.

For surely if there is a fate worse than death, being convicted for a murder you did not commit in a foreign country must be pretty high on the list of possibilities!

I was just one of many people who spent hundreds of hours researching this case in order to wade through the tabloid distortions which, sorry to say, the Kercher family was a big part of. When I began reading about the case, I did not have an opinion about it but just thought something was off in the media portrayal of Ms Knox, whereas Mr Sollecito was basically ignored. But the more I read, and the more I researched the history of Prosecutor Mignini and the Italian courts in general, the more it became blindingly obvious that Knox and Sollecito had been railroaded and were innocent.

If it was obvious to me then it should also have been obvious to Stephanie Kercher, or anyone who bothered to take the time to separate the actual evidence from the leaks of false information that were coming from the prosecutor's office. I was not in possession of any information that was not also available to the Kercher family and so I find it very difficult to have any respect for the way they have conducted themselves in the aftermath of this crime. I feel sympathy for their loss but disdain for what they did to Knox and Sollecito.

The father's denials of reality were particularly sad, claiming that Meredith's talent at Judo meant that it would have taken three people to subdue her. Please! She was a short girl and Guede had a knife. End of.

The horrible truth is that Ms. Knox stayed in Italy to help the police and comfort the Kercher family, only to have them turn on her and join in accusing her of a crime she was incapable of doing.

How can you give an award to a person who still has not admitted that she and her family have been WRONG to accuse Knox and Sollecito?

If anyone deserves an award around this horrible incident it is surely Madison Paxton, friend of Amanda, who similiarly put her entire life on hold in order to help free the friend she knew could never in a million years be involved in any violence, particularly not something to do with sex and another girl!

Now that justice has finally been served, it is time for the Kerchers to apologize. There are still trolls on the Internet who will not leave Amanda Knox alone and she will probably have to deal with this for the rest of her life.

Two wrongs don't make a right, and a word from the Kerchers that they fully accept the innocent (verdict) of Knox and Sollecito, and know that they were victims of a corrupt and fanciful prosecutor would at least go some ways to removing the veneer of respectability these trolls currently gain from the Kercher's silent approval.

I hope to receive a reply soon.

(Authored by some feeble minded contemptible and confused nobody who also says this: But "hounding a dead girls family" has a specific meaning. It does not bear any relation, however, to me or my acts as an intelligent and articulate campaigner against wrongful convictions. And this gem: The fact that the Kerchers suffered a terrible loss does NOT give them a free pass to act like assholes or to be beyond critique.)


Silence is a form of acquiescence. SHAME on the Knox family!


Last edited by louiehaha on Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Thanks, louie. Just when you think that people couldn't possibly sink any lower........


Jesus wept.....again.
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Offline Sparkles


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Napia5 wrote:
Thanks, louie. Just when you think that people couldn't possibly sink any lower........


Jesus wept.....again.


OMG - truly shameful and shows these people up for what they are....... Really are they that threatened??
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Well, that guy who worked with Knox prior to her leaving the states,

and in my opinion, before she murdered Meredith Kercher (my opinion),

said Knox freaked him out,

with her screeching like a banshee: MY people killed your people!!!

if Knox somehow saw her people as Nazis (and not Germans, because it wasn't Germans that murdered 6 million Jews, Nazi soldiers did) then oma is doing her grandaughter's words justice, by carrying on exactly how you'd imagine Gestapos would when they tortured people; any Fuhrer worshipping concentration camp gas extermination oven commander, would have been proud of her.

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Last edited by zorba on Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:14 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Sparkles wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
Thanks, louie. Just when you think that people couldn't possibly sink any lower........


Jesus wept.....again.


OMG - truly shameful and shows these people up for what they are....... Really are they that threatened??


Threatened? I don't think so, Sparkles. This is about some sickening, righteous sense of entitlement. There is no line they will not cross. No sense of civility they will not violate in their sick attempts to protect one of their own.
She goes to the right schools. She knows the right people. Our daughters went to school together. And they stick together. None of Stephanie's struggles in the years since, none of her accomplishments are permitted to be recognized. These things reflect negatively on the little hand-tracing vegetable picker.

The Foakers are all about excuses and blame-shifting if you are one of them. Shout out in a courtroom, well, that's stress, you know. They accept this if you are one of theirs. This is the side of the righteous, so all is forgiven and understandable.

But, they complain and protest an award to Stephanie, who, in their minds has committed the unforgivable sin of not apoligizing for calmly, and with much more dignity than I could ever muster, sitting through those horrendous months of waiting for justice. Did I hear the Kerchers screaming for vengenance when the first verdict went the other way?

IMO, these Foakerss are, at this point, making royal fools of themselves. As they rant and complain, I believe more and more people are beginning to shake their heads, wondering what in hell is wrong with them. They do Knox and Sollecito no favors.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

louiehaha wrote:
Elizabeth Huff, Amanda Knox’s grandmother, along with several other family members, is a member of a Facebook group (featured in the group's banner) that has posted a letter of protest to Cosmopolitan magazine over the award recently bestowed upon Stephanie Kercher. Among other things, the letter demands an apology to the Knox family by the Kercher family. The group "Free Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito" appears to be moderated by Michelle Moore, certainly no outsider to the Knox/Mellas clan herself. Link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/10975028253/


Absolutely disgusting!

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:20 am   Post subject: TO A LOUSE   

To the FOAK'ers, er, a louse: :mrgreen:


To A Louse~Robert Burns
On Seeing One on a Lady's Bonnet at Church


Ha! whare ye gaun' ye crowlin ferlie?
Your impudence protects you sairly;
I canna say but ye strunt rarely
Owre gauze and lace,
Tho faith! I fear ye dine but sparely
On sic a place.

Ye ugly, creepin, blastit wonner,
Detested, shunn'd by saunt an sinner,
How daur ye set your fit upon her—-
Sae fine a lady!
Gae somewhere else and seek your dinner
On some poor body.

Swith! in some beggar's hauffet squattle;
There ye may creep, and sprawl, and sprattle;
Wi' ither kindred, jumping cattle;
In shoals and nations;
Whare horn nor bane ne'er daur unsettle
Your thick plantations.

Now haud you there! ye're out o' sight,
Below the fatt'rils, snug an tight,
Na, faith ye yet! ye'll no be right,
Till ye've got on it—-
The vera tapmost, tow'rin height
O' Miss's bonnet.

My sooth! right bauld ye set your nose out,
As plump an grey as onie grozet:
O for some rank, mercurial rozet,
Or fell, red smeddum,
I'd gie you sic a hearty dose o't,
Wad dress your droddum!

I wad na been surpris'd to spy
You on an auld wife's flainen toy
Or aiblins some bit duddie boy,
On's wyliecoat;
But Miss's fine Lunardi! fye!
How daur ye do't?

O Jeany, dinna toss your head,
An set your beauties a' abread!
Ye little ken what cursed speed
The blastie's makin!
Thae winks an finger-ends, I dread,
Are notice takin!

O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!
It wad frae monie a blunder free us
An foolish notion:
What airs in dress an gait wad lea'es us,
An ev'n devotion
!
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:43 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Oh, Ergon, LOL.

And not a single insight into its creepy, crawly self. Just a louse, being a louse!
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:21 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

What a terrible thing to say about someone who is suffering a loss. What a bunch of thoughtless idiots who masquerade as supporters of "justice". As Michael said, Knox deserves them, and they deserve her.

May I ask who is the author of that e-mail? The fur clerk? Sorry, I don't have a FB account and can't log in.

Seriously can you imagine having to be the person who wrote the email, to have to live each day as a mean and rude person. I feel sorry for him/her.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:56 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

guermantes wrote:
What a terrible thing to say about someone who is suffering a loss. What a bunch of thoughtless idiots who masquerade as supporters of "justice". As Michael said, Knox deserves them, and they deserve her.

May I ask who is the author of that e-mail? The fur clerk? Sorry, I don't have an FB account and can't log in.


Hi, guermantes, her name is Diana Rosalind Trimble and anyone can click on the link here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/10975028253

Her website is http://66witches.wordpress.com/ (thanks to .org for following up on louiehaha's post) with gems like this one: http://66witches.wordpress.com/2012/10/ ... to-change/

A Womb with a View…to CHANGE

"How many successful female artists do you, Penny White think have 13 (or possibly 16) children? I’m tired of hearing from privileged Western women about how having children makes people “less selfish” (narcissistic actors love to say this in interviews, post-baby production) whereas I find people with children to be amongst some of the most selfish I’ve ever encountered.

Certainly gigantic welfare families like we have here in Britatin are not known for displaying their qualities of contribution to society.

I am dedicating my life to making the world a better place, through my political activism, my music, my writing, my travels and my friendships. Every jerk that ever lived was somebody’s baby once, so I hope everyone who insists that motherhood is the true measure of the woman keeps that in mind.

Clearly some of those women would’ve made the world a better place by not reproducing!"

Truly, a louse with a singular inability to see one's self.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:58 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

From what I am reading at .org, the writer's name is Diana Trimble.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:42 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Thanks Ergon and Napia. Ah, just another weirdo more to the bunch.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:55 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

The branches of the Groupie tree are getting heavy with the fruits!

Given her artsy, fartsy attitude towards motherhood, I assume it is a positive thing that she is without child. She does know that there are fathers involved in this process, yes?
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:22 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Thanks Loui,

I only needed to read a few words of a few different sentences, to make a single sentence: her face acted as a repellent, and I had to bring my dinner back up... almost,

I mean, the face might have been neutral if not for the nasty words but those words turn the face to non-plastic surgery operable ugly.

Personally, I shall not read a word more from Opper - lovely family in Seattle concentration camp -bevel hebber OMA.

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Last edited by zorba on Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:20 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

There is definitely a thread of true pottiness in that family and listening to OMA now, it sounds like she may be one of its sources.

In fact, I don't think even Knox's mother was a bad person before all this, it's just it's too painful for her to accept, for if she accepts the truth, then it means waving goodbye to the daughter she had, the one who was not a murderer, and to her, that is devastating, she cannot do it, and blocks out the truth, by making noise as one with fingers in both ears saying la la la when someone says something she cannot bear listening to.

That one moment, for instance, in court, when mom didn't know quite which direction she had to argue when daughter-love told mom, no, I don't remember calling, when the truth behind that moment, was obviously that mom and daughter-love had discussed the matter so many times that mom was left there mouth agape, which she hid, but her mind was definitely left agape there because she as a person had tried to live honestly and now here she was in open court being forced by the person she protected and loved, into being a liar and one aiding and abetting a murderer, my opinion being, that the aforesaid murderer, was her own daughter. Her mother appeared very feeble and insecure at that moment as right there her mathematical thinking brain was computing the relevance/meaning, implications of what was happening. She could not say, huh, but Amanda, it is something we've talked about so many times and you never once said this, you explained to me so many times exactly how it was that you'd come to call me at that ungodly hour, but now you are saying you cannot remember the call.

What did this type of I don't remember moment mesh into? It meshes right into what Knox had been doing with the police, the moment of realisation for mom must have told her, God, the police weren't lying, my daughter was and is.

So then she had to decide (and she had anyway) to do whatever she needed to get her daughter away from there, away from taking responsibility, her mother decided she couldn't allow herself to think of anything other, guilty or not, than getting her daughter away out of there. So she continued, complying right there for all to see with the lies her daughter was telling the court... and the world.

Therefore, and I was discussing this elsewhere with a friend, it will probably be others like mom who will suffer the most with their minda, mom will suffer unless she too has the mind of a murderer, and assuming mom has never murdered anyone, then she cannot keep that up, she has not run through the experience of plunging a knife into someone's neck and if she is not potty, then she is bound to be hindered in her life, by the wrong she will be aware she has done, for she will not be able to repel the incoming thoughts from the deeper part of her. We all have that deeper part, some are in tune with it and allow themselves, even unconsciously, to use it as a guide through life, not voices in the head but the inner voice, and if one was brought up in anywhere near a decent way like had proper examples of what is right and wrong, without indoctrination, just ordinary ways, like the benefits of being kind and the difference to that with being mean and cruel, then that tuned in-ness helps, so a person denying that inner voice, can only become ill, in the head, because it means going against the more vital, true part of your own being, it's something people cannot do entirely no matter who they are. Even the multi-killing nasties, who admitted what they did and glare in the face of scorn simply to wallow in that shock they bring upon others, do end up making excuses somewhere, because they too cannot block the reality out completely and need a diversionary measure/way(s) to live with lies that their inner self is saying not to tell and saying don't do this, this is not right or good for you. This conflict is what will wind up causing some real mental problems in this.

Now the actual, in my opinion, knife plunging person (the actual one who killed Meredith striking the fatal blow with all of that anger, whether fleeting or long-term = I think not too long-term but not immediate, more like growing and festering), Ms Knox herself, she if guilty (which I think is the case) needs a way to get through her life, and as the reality of the aforesaid experiences, meaning the effects of the actions she undertook, leave it even harder for her to block out, so she needs more than the process let's say her mom or OMA will be using to deny, she needs to believe it herself, believe that it didn't happen, one way is having diversion all around, but that alone would not help her upon waking up, mornings or in the night or even from an afternoon nap on the sofa, realising, hey, it was not a nightmare, it is true, it happened and you did those things.
Therefore she needs to go ever-further into that no grip on reality (by believing in her mind that none of it happened), as worded by her good colleague-friend Sollecito. I say colleague, meaning in murder, as an opinion I have of the two.

We as people are allowed to have these opinions, for they are founded in our basic civil and human rights, to not have them means one must be living in some place like North Korea.

Now OMA and family however, still want(s) us too to divorce from reality and scaring us, make us believe we too are not grounded in reality, and can simply be bullied, like Meredith was, to death and into believing we have no such rights to opinions, opinions we personally are certain are true.

What I'm saying is that those who have not committed murder but have been lying to the world and importantly, themselves, for fear of admitting the truth about their loved one, will have a hard time of keeping the act up. A person who did these things is different, the depth of the distress at ones own actions catapults the mind into a different sphere, what I said, where the person finds ways to imagine none of it happened, after all, the associates/family, are all saying it didn't happen, so this serves as a crutch under the broken-legged-mind of the killer.

Yet family do not have those crutches in the same way, their minds are not destroyed in the same way, because no matter how bad they themselves behave, they still didn't murder anyone... yet, they are simply being self-sacrificial to the ones that did commit murder and are allowing themselves to be ruined by the effects of that wickedness.

The effects entice/encourage/inspire the worst traits in people to emerge.
Mother cannot accept the truth for it will mean everything in her life is destroyed, because then she herself is no longer Mrs Ordinary, law-abiding, good family person, she becomes mother of that murderer, and that idea is too much to take for her and for the rest of them, this notwithstanding, I feel that examples are something that work strongly and had mother had the courage to actually save her daughter from an even worse fate than the plain after-effects of having committed murder, saved her from her own demons as far as that could be done by accepting, admitting, and facing up and then saving whatever there was to save of the original human being the one that is not only a killer, then the rest would have, likewise seen the sense in being truthful and I am sure though it would have been hard, they themselves would eventually have come to terms with it and been able to not blame themselves for the things that they themselves did not do there in Perugia and still suppoirt A Knox thereafter but in an honest realistic way.

Sadly, they, not one of them, has the type of intelligence to grasp these things and are simply allowing themselves to be swallowed up by the sheer wickedness of the original wicked moment, the murder.

The murder thus does not become the one point, and then basta/stop, it is extended, drawn upon and prolonged, turned into babies, born of that wickedness, the process is mutating and leaving trails and acts of wickedness all over the place as those in denial run like lemmings to their own mental destruction.

Let's face it, who in Knox's family could have taken it, by admitting the truth, how would it have been for them, to admit the reality?
Let's look at Deanna, then it would no longer be: Hi I'm Deanna and this is my dear sister who I love. It would be, Hi I'm Deanna, and I'm the sister of a Amanda who murdered a girl in Italy, but, I still love her.

That pain would have been so much/heavy, thus, encouraged by the elders too, she cannot do anything other than accept the lies, clinging on for dear life to the lies, to the past, to the sister that had not done anything wrong; for the truth is just too much to take. This is my honest opinion.
Only that person, that daughter that sister is a thing of the past, she is no longer that person, but they all deny this, because they cannot take it to admit that not only Meredith died, but so did the sister and daughter they once had.

How then in real life terms can they/will they be able to keep this reality out of the picture?

_________________
Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
Ignorance of the law is no excuse


Last edited by zorba on Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

zorba wrote:
There is definitely a thread of true pottiness in that family and listening to OMA now, it sounds like she may be one of its sources.

In fact, I don't think even Knox's mother was a bad person before all this, it's just it's too painful for her to accept, for if she accepts the truth, then it means waving goodbye to the daughter she had, the one who was not a murderer, and to her, that is devastating, she cannot do it, and blocks out the truth, by making noise as one with fingers in both ears saying la la la when someone says something she cannot bear listening to.

That one moment, for instance, in court, when mom didn't know quite which direction she had to argue when daughter-love told mom, no, I don't remember calling, when the truth behind that moment, was obviously that mom and daughter-love had discussed the matter so many times that mom was left there mouth agape, which she hid, but her mind was definitely left agape there because she as a person had tried to live honestly and now here she was in open court being forced by the person she protected and loved, into a liar and one aiding ans abetting a murderer, my opinion being, that the aforesaid murderer, was, her own daughter. Her mother appeared very feeble and insecure at that moment as right there her mathematical thinking brain was computing the relevance/meaning, implications of what was happening. She could not say, huh, but Amanda, it is something we've talked about so many times and you never once said this, you explained to me so many times exactly how it was that you'd come to call me at that ungodly hour, but now you are saying you cannot remember the call.
-----------------
That pain would have been so much thus, that encouraged by the elders too, she cannot do anything other than accept the lies, clinging on for dear life to the lies, to the past, to the sister that had not done anything wrong; for the truth is just too much to take. This is my honest opinion.
Only that person, that daughter that sister is a thing of the past, she is no longer that person, but they all deny this, because they cannot take it to admit that not only Meredith died, but so did the sister and daughter they once had.

How then in real life terms can they/will they be able to keep this reality out of the picture?


Another gem from zorba, a stellar piece of writing. This is Festinger's 1957 theory of Cognitive Dissonance writ large, as we see in the Amanda Knox case (I'm talking about her psychological case study, and not, the murder trial)

Cognitive Dissonance is the psychological need to have all your beliefs in harmony, and therefore, one raises these er, mental barriers against facts that might conflict with those beliefs, and yes, that means the Knox family. Faced with a set of facts, of a series of lies compounded with more lies, one can only deny the obvious. Yet the thing with cognitive dissonance is, the psychic disease it causes, as zorba makes clear.

Reading through Raffaele Sollecito's novel, er, manifesto, one gets the clear picture of a family that knows he's guilty, but defaults to a fallback position of "Amanda's the strange one, she left in the night to commit murder but we have to defend our own". Cognitive dissonance and cheerful amorality now they think they've gotten away with it, but fear of the SC ruling. Berlusconi out, an angry populace that is fed up with the state of their country they will not accept anything less than that justice must be done. In this, I trust the good in the dual nature of Gemini ruled Italy to prevail.

But the Knox family? They bear a deeper psychological burden. Knox is a deeply damaged individual. I doubt she has the capacity to love. How did they miss the signs? Or ignore the evidence? Sure, you can buy into 'contaminated evidence and corrupt prosecution' all you want, that is peculiar to the mindset of a small group of professional innocence peddlers. But to be so scared of the alternative you shut yourself off from the possibility she might be guilty as charged?

One thing I do see. Curt Knox knows but right now, he's protecting his other two daughters and staying out of it. Funny that his wife Cassandra and daughter Deanna is acknowledged in Sollecito's book, but not him.

Never mind. Justice will be served.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

One thing that was missed in writing about Ms. Trimble's diatribe against motherhood and paean to her own choice of not ever having children

"Every jerk that ever lived was somebody’s baby once, so I hope everyone who insists that motherhood is the true measure of the woman keeps that in mind.

Clearly some of those women would’ve made the world a better place by not reproducing!
"

Yes, and that might well have applied to your own mother, Ms. Trimble, if one has only your ill-natured scribblings to go by. One can only be grateful you will not reproduce, and we have your promise in writing.

But Arline Kercher, Meredith's mother, just had her birthday last week. She brought four lovely children into the world, and displayed amazing grace and dignity, yet her own birthday will be forever blighted by the loss she suffered so close to that day. It is mothers like her that make the world a better place to live in.
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Offline daisysteiner


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

louiehaha wrote:


Elizabeth Huff, Amanda Knox’s grandmother, along with several other family members, is a member of a Facebook group (featured in the group's banner) that has posted a letter of protest to Cosmopolitan magazine over the award recently bestowed upon Stephanie Kercher. Among other things, the letter demands an apology to the Knox family by the Kercher family. The group "Free Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito" appears to be moderated by Michelle Moore, certainly no outsider to the Knox/Mellas clan herself. Link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/10975028253/

Zorba: You may want to stop reading here.
Quote:
Hey - Below is a letter I just wrote this to Cosmopolitan who is about to give a hollow award to Stephanie Kercher. The announcement on the BBC site was full of the usual veiled suspicions. If you feel as I do then please write to pat.mcnulty@hearst.co.uk

Dear Cosmopolitan

I am disappointed that you have chosen to honour the sister of the unfortunate Meredith Kercher. Although I am sure it is true that she gave up a lot in order to support her parents and focus on the trial, it is equally true that she and her family have never acknowledged the terrible miscarriage of justice in which they participated.

For surely if there is a fate worse than death, being convicted for a murder you did not commit in a foreign country must be pretty high on the list of possibilities!

I was just one of many people who spent hundreds of hours researching this case in order to wade through the tabloid distortions which, sorry to say, the Kercher family was a big part of. When I began reading about the case, I did not have an opinion about it but just thought something was off in the media portrayal of Ms Knox, whereas Mr Sollecito was basically ignored. But the more I read, and the more I researched the history of Prosecutor Mignini and the Italian courts in general, the more it became blindingly obvious that Knox and Sollecito had been railroaded and were innocent.

If it was obvious to me then it should also have been obvious to Stephanie Kercher, or anyone who bothered to take the time to separate the actual evidence from the leaks of false information that were coming from the prosecutor's office. I was not in possession of any information that was not also available to the Kercher family and so I find it very difficult to have any respect for the way they have conducted themselves in the aftermath of this crime. I feel sympathy for their loss but disdain for what they did to Knox and Sollecito.

The father's denials of reality were particularly sad, claiming that Meredith's talent at Judo meant that it would have taken three people to subdue her. Please! She was a short girl and Guede had a knife. End of.

The horrible truth is that Ms. Knox stayed in Italy to help the police and comfort the Kercher family, only to have them turn on her and join in accusing her of a crime she was incapable of doing.

How can you give an award to a person who still has not admitted that she and her family have been WRONG to accuse Knox and Sollecito?

If anyone deserves an award around this horrible incident it is surely Madison Paxton, friend of Amanda, who similiarly put her entire life on hold in order to help free the friend she knew could never in a million years be involved in any violence, particularly not something to do with sex and another girl!

Now that justice has finally been served, it is time for the Kerchers to apologize. There are still trolls on the Internet who will not leave Amanda Knox alone and she will probably have to deal with this for the rest of her life.

Two wrongs don't make a right, and a word from the Kerchers that they fully accept the innocent (verdict) of Knox and Sollecito, and know that they were victims of a corrupt and fanciful prosecutor would at least go some ways to removing the veneer of respectability these trolls currently gain from the Kercher's silent approval.

I hope to receive a reply soon.

(Authored by some feeble minded contemptible and confused nobody who also says this: But "hounding a dead girls family" has a specific meaning. It does not bear any relation, however, to me or my acts as an intelligent and articulate campaigner against wrongful convictions. And this gem: The fact that the Kerchers suffered a terrible loss does NOT give them a free pass to act like assholes or to be beyond critique.)


Silence is a form of acquiescence. SHAME on the Knox family!


I'm beyond fucking appalled at this from the Facebook group. Considering what the Kercher family feel vs what they have openly said in the media is fairly different - the Kerchers have been restrained in the media - Elisabeth Huff and this Trimble woman might want to rethink this letter. Imagine for one second how an Oprah interview with Steph Kercher would play out with Steph being all gorgeous, grown up and on the ball then noting her Cosmo award and her humanitarian/language credentials only to follow it up with an all out assault on Knox, her lies and her character. I imagine that is the sort of thing that could blow up $1m of carefully planned and paid for PR and make it even harder for Amanda to walk down the street in her own town. I'm not suggesting anything is planned or even that discussions have taken place, what I am saying is be very very careful what dragons you poke especially when they have been so very quiet and patient up until now compared to the rage they feel. Mind you, Knox is a cold hearted sex killer; which must be hard for granny to deal with. March 2013 will be the end of the old bird - she might need those mortgage forms again too.

In case anyone is wondering why I haven't mentioned Raffaele - I don't see any Sollecito named members of that group (tbf - no Sollecito members before I got bored of scrolling!) plus Sollecito is a weasley no-mark who is treated with the contempt he richly deserves in his own country. If his countrymen thought he was innocent the publisher would have bothered to release his book there. The only country in the world where the majority of people think Knox and Sollecito are innocent is America. A quick straw poll around my office proves that. Even the three Italian senior managers who work here think the lovebirds are guiltier than a guilty looking puppy sitting next to a suspicious looking puddle.

Rage subsiding. Calming down. Plotting.

The only good thing in the letter is the person (using that term loosely) who wrote it managed to spell Honour properly *golf clap*
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Offline daisysteiner


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

zorba wrote:
There is definitely a thread of true pottiness in that family and listening to OMA now, it sounds like she may be one of its sources.

In fact, I don't think even Knox's mother was a bad person before all this, it's just it's too painful for her to accept, for if she accepts the truth, then it means waving goodbye to the daughter she had, the one who was not a murderer, and to her, that is devastating, she cannot do it, and blocks out the truth, by making noise as one with fingers in both ears saying la la la when someone says something she cannot bear listening to.

That one moment, for instance, in court, when mom didn't know quite which direction she had to argue when daughter-love told mom, no, I don't remember calling, when the truth behind that moment, was obviously that mom and daughter-love had discussed the matter so many times that mom was left there mouth agape, which she hid, but her mind was definitely left agape there because she as a person had tried to live honestly and now here she was in open court being forced by the person she protected and loved, into a liar and one aiding ans abetting a murderer, my opinion being, that the aforesaid murderer, was, her own daughter. Her mother appeared very feeble and insecure at that moment as right there her mathematical thinking brain was computing the relevance/meaning, implications of what was happening. She could not say, huh, but Amanda, it is something we've talked about so many times and you never once said this, you explained to me so many times exactly how it was that you'd come to call me at that ungodly hour, but now you are saying you cannot remember the call.

What did this type of I don't remember moment mesh into? It meshes right into what Knox had been doing with the police, the moment of realisation for mom must have told her, God, the police weren't lying, my daughter was and is.

So then she had to decide (and she had anyway) to do whatever she needed to get her daughter away from there, away from taking responsibility, her mother decided she couldn't allow herself to think of anything other, guilty or not, than getting her daughter away out of there. So she continued, complying right there for all to see with the lies her daughter was telling the court... and the world.

Therefore, and I was discussing this elsewhere with a friend, it will, probably be other like mom who will suffer the most with her mind, unless she too had ts the mind of a murderer and assuming mom has never murdered anyone, then she cannot keep that up, she has not run through the experience of plunging a knife into someone's neck and if she is not potty, then she is bound to be hindered in her life, by the wrong she will be aware she has done, for she will not be able to repel the incoming thoughts from the deeper part of her. We all have that deeper part, some are in tune with it and allow themselves, even unconsciously to use it as a guide through life, not voices in the head but the inner voice, and if one was brought up inm anywhere near a decent way like had good examples of what is right and wrong, without indoctrination, just ordinary ways, like the benefits of being kind and the difference to that with being means and cruel, then that tuned in-ness helps, so a person denying that inner voice, can only become ill, in the head because it means going against the more vital, true part of your own being, it's something people cannot do entirely no matter who they are. Even the multi-killing nasties, who admitted what they did and glare in the face of scorn simply to wallow in that shock they bring upon others, do end up making excuses somewhere, because they too cannot block the reality out completely and need a diversionary measure/way(s) to live with lies that their inner self is saying don't do this, this is not right or good for you. This conflict is what will wind up causing some real mental problems in this.

Now the actual, in my opinion, knife plunging person (the actual one who killed Meredith striking the fatal blow with all of that anger, whether fleeting or long-term -= I think not too long-term but not immediate, more like growing and festering), Ms Knox herself, she if guilty (which I think is the case) needs a way to get through her life, and as the reality of the aforesaid experiences, meaning the effects of the actions she undertook, leave it even harder for her to block out, so she needs more than the process let's say her mom or OMA will be using to deny, she needs to believe it herself, believe that it didn't happen, one way is having diversion all around, but that alone would not help her upon waking up, mornings or in the night or even from an afternoon nap on the sofa, realising, hey, it was not a nightmare, it is true, it happened and you did those things.
Therefore she needs to go ever-further into that no grip on reality, as worded by her good colleague-friend Sollecito. I say colleagues in murder, as an opinion I have of the two.

We as people are allowed to have these opinions, for they are founded in our basic civil and human rights, to not have them means one must be living in some place like North Korea.

Now OMA and family however, still want(s) us too to divorce from reality and scaring us, make us believe we too are not grounded in reality, and can simply be bullied, like Meredith was, to death and into believing we have no such rights to opinions, opinions we personally are certain are true.

What I'm saying is that those who have not committed murder but have been lying to the world and importantly, themselves for fear of admitting the truth about their loved one, will have a hard time of keeping the act up. A person who did these things is different, the depth of the distress at ones own actions catapults the mind into a different sphere, what I said, where the person finds ways to imagine none of it happened, after all, the associates/family, are all saying it didn't happen, so this serves as a crutch under the broken-legged-mind of the killer.

Yet family do not have those crutches in the same way, their minds are not destroyed in the same way, because no matter how bad they themselves behave, they still didn't murder anyone yet, they are simply being self-sacrificial to the ones that did commit murder and are allowing themselves to be ruined by the effects of that wickedness.

The effects, they entice/encourage/ inspire the worst traits in people, to emerge.
Mother cannot accept the truth for it will mean everything in her life is destroyed, because then she herself is no longer Mrs Ordinary person, law-abiding, good family person, she becomes mother of that murderer, and that idea is too much to take for her and for the rest of them, this notwithstanding, I feel that examples are something that work strongly and had mother had the courage to actually save her daughter from an even worse fate than the p;lain after-effects of having committed murder, saved her from her own demons as far as that could by accepting, admitting, and facing up and then saving whatever there was to save of the original human being the one that is not only a killer, then the rest would have, likewise sen the sense in being truthful and I am sure though it would have been hard, they themselves would eventually have come to terms with it and been able to not blame themselves for the things that they themselves did not do there in Perugia.

Sadly, they, not one of them, has the type of intelligence to grasp these things and are simply allowing themselves to be swallowed up by the sheer wickedness of the original wicked moment, the murder.

The murder thus does not become the one point, and then basta/stop it is extended upon and prolonged, turned into babies, born of that wickedness, the process is mutating and leaving trails and acts of wickedness all over the place as those in denial run like lemmings to their own mental destruction.

Let's face it, who on Knox's family could have taken it, by admitting the truth, how would it have been for hem, to admit the reality?
Let's look at Deanna, then it would no longer be, Hi I'm Deanna and this is my dear sister who I love. It would be, Hi I'm Deanna, and I'm the sister of a Amanda who murdered a girl in Italy, but, I still love her.

That pain would have been so much thus, that encouraged by the elders too, she cannot do anything other than accept the lies, clinging on for dear life to the lies, to the past, to the sister that had not done anything wrong; for the truth is just too much to take. This is my honest opinion.
Only that person, that daughter that sister is a thing of the past, she is no longer that person, but they all deny this, because they cannot take it to admit that not only Meredith died, but so did the sister and daughter they once had.

How then in real life terms can they/will they be able to keep this reality out of the picture?



^^^I agree with all of this ^^^^
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ergon,
Quote:
One thing I do see. Curt Knox knows but right now, he's protecting his other two daughters and staying out of it. Funny that his wife Cassandra and daughter Deanna is acknowledged in Sollecito's book, but not him.


Too much credit here, IMO. He took the reins of the Marriott Chariot and just couldn't find a safe place to get off. He's stuck protecting his own image.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Napia5 wrote:
Ergon,
Quote:
One thing I do see. Curt Knox knows but right now, he's protecting his other two daughters and staying out of it. Funny that his wife Cassandra and daughter Deanna is acknowledged in Sollecito's book, but not him.


Too much credit here, IMO. He took the reins of the Marriott Chariot and just couldn't find a safe place to get off. He's stuck protecting his own image.


I think he's (rightly) concerned about the upcoming SC hearing and his own defamazione trial. Marriott was a blunder, and the whole thing is now propelled by people with books, movies, and assorted causes to sell, in increasing decibelitude. Nothing was more telling to me than his complete absence from the scene after October 03.

Even the Knox book will make things worse, not better.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Hi, Zorba. Your post is right on the money, IMO.

Quote:
How then in real life terms can they/will they be able to keep this reality out of the picture?


Sadly, this type of family dysfunction limps along on all levels. As long as the blame is shifted, and the guilt that goes along with it, people manage to survive. Mom blames dad for not being there, dad blames mom for marrying a younger man and not being there, daughter blames dad for calling in the PR team, locking her onto the path they took. Mom blames self for giving her blessing to go to Italy in the first place.
Dad blames mom and daughter for always being more of a burden than he wanted to handle. Blaming each other eases the burden or responsibility. As long as none of them alter the script, each one of them will be able to limp along, trying to ease their own consciences by pointing the finger at the other guy. It's typical of dysfunction. The family dynamic at its worst.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Funny to see earlier narratives, once derided, now enter into the discussion.

Drug induced psychosis...

Amanda Knox's bi-sexuality...

Judicial corruption...

What next?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Stephanie Kercher, seen here speaking after receiving Cosmo's Ultimate Women of the Year award (starts @ ~ 4 min 20 sec)

VIDEO: Cosmo's Ultimate Women of the Year winners

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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

What a delightful clip, guermantes! I smiled the entire time, for each of these women. How nice to be recoginzed in this way.
She seems content. She shines.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ergon wrote:
zorba wrote:
There is definitely a thread of true pottiness in that family and listening to OMA now, it sounds like she may be one of its sources.

In fact, I don't think even Knox's mother was a bad person before all this, it's just it's too painful for her to accept, for if she accepts the truth, then it means waving goodbye to the daughter she had, the one who was not a murderer, and to her, that is devastating, she cannot do it, and blocks out the truth, by making noise as one with fingers in both ears saying la la la when someone says something she cannot bear listening to.

That one moment, for instance, in court, when mom didn't know quite which direction she had to argue when daughter-love told mom, no, I don't remember calling, when the truth behind that moment, was obviously that mom and daughter-love had discussed the matter so many times that mom was left there mouth agape, which she hid, but her mind was definitely left agape there because she as a person had tried to live honestly and now here she was in open court being forced by the person she protected and loved, into a liar and one aiding ans abetting a murderer, my opinion being, that the aforesaid murderer, was, her own daughter. Her mother appeared very feeble and insecure at that moment as right there her mathematical thinking brain was computing the relevance/meaning, implications of what was happening. She could not say, huh, but Amanda, it is something we've talked about so many times and you never once said this, you explained to me so many times exactly how it was that you'd come to call me at that ungodly hour, but now you are saying you cannot remember the call.
-----------------
That pain would have been so much thus, that encouraged by the elders too, she cannot do anything other than accept the lies, clinging on for dear life to the lies, to the past, to the sister that had not done anything wrong; for the truth is just too much to take. This is my honest opinion.
Only that person, that daughter that sister is a thing of the past, she is no longer that person, but they all deny this, because they cannot take it to admit that not only Meredith died, but so did the sister and daughter they once had.

How then in real life terms can they/will they be able to keep this reality out of the picture?


Another gem from zorba, a stellar piece of writing. This is Festinger's 1957 theory of Cognitive Dissonance writ large, as we see in the Amanda Knox case (I'm talking about her psychological case study, and not, the murder trial)

Cognitive Dissonance is the psychological need to have all your beliefs in harmony, and therefore, one raises these er, mental barriers against facts that might conflict with those beliefs, and yes, that means the Knox family. Faced with a set of facts, of a series of lies compounded with more lies, one can only deny the obvious. Yet the thing with cognitive dissonance is, the psychic disease it causes, as zorba makes clear.

Reading through Raffaele Sollecito's novel, er, manifesto, one gets the clear picture of a family that knows he's guilty, but defaults to a fallback position of "Amanda's the strange one, she left in the night to commit murder but we have to defend our own". Cognitive dissonance and cheerful amorality now they think they've gotten away with it, but fear of the SC ruling. Berlusconi out, an angry populace that is fed up with the state of their country they will not accept anything less than that justice must be done. In this, I trust the good in the dual nature of Gemini ruled Italy to prevail.

But the Knox family? They bear a deeper psychological burden. Knox is a deeply damaged individual. I doubt she has the capacity to love. How did they miss the signs? Or ignore the evidence? Sure, you can buy into 'contaminated evidence and corrupt prosecution' all you want, that is peculiar to the mindset of a small group of professional innocence peddlers. But to be so scared of the alternative you shut yourself off from the possibility she might be guilty as charged?

One thing I do see. Curt Knox knows but right now, he's protecting his other two daughters and staying out of it. Funny that his wife Cassandra and daughter Deanna is acknowledged in Sollecito's book, but not him.

Never mind. Justice will be served.



Thank you Ergon,

will look Festinger's work up when I get the time, my year of birth too, '57.

About the incapacity to love, yes, I agree, more, I think written all over her face, through all of this, is the expression of her own position, wherein, she thought she was rightfully angry and she never changed from that position, this could be the very element that allows her and may forever to not ever feel upset or take responsibility for her wrong actions, it'd be akin to a soldier in war, who says it was me or them, so if the soldier can shoot a man or whoever dead then go home and not feel guilty, somehow Knox must be leaning into a similar mind-set/strategy of survival, some soldiers even though told they had to, they must, they should, end up with lots of mental problems either whilst still in service or when they get out, but others, saying it was the right thing, even if they are Christians, somehow think and say it is okay, it was right and then they do not have problems with themselves.
The thing allowing Knox to carry on regardless is some kind of mental position like the soldier's, where she says in her head, I had to do it and she deserves it, I see that aggression written all over her and her own father demonstrated a tendency into that vein, whereas, though the mother is wrong, I haven't detected that type of brazen aggression in her.

To her mind-set, admitting her daughter is guilty is like the destruction of her osn life, as she obviously loves her, it's her child but as a human being it's wrong to be as small and narrow-minded as this, it is also not a sign of real love, it is encouraging your child to be possessed by all the wrong spirits.

Thing is, it is the father who has the young family, and it was up until Knox's trouble, separate, a separate life, to that of his other two daughters and their home life, even if they popped over, stayed over, his family was with his second wife and he would be answering to her about the well-being of the two minors, however, he may have been that forceful; that his second wife had to take whatever he dished out, knowing he wouldn't be leaving her and he dishing it out however he wanted knowing she wouldn't leave him either, but I do not see/envisage his daughter visiting the whole time with her guitar guy.
Behind the scenes I believe there have been some explosions of anger, I cannot possibly imagine that nobody would have heaped scorn on Knox for the trouble she has caused them all, unless they are really very far beyond stupid indeed and truly do believe she knew nothing but man, they would have to be SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO dumb it's incredible to even try understanding.

The only other way is that they do not even want to hear of it, even if Knox wished to come clean they'd run a mile and are having none of it, you are innocent do you hear.
Yes sir

I didn't do nothing?

You sure as hell did not, now forget about it do ya hear

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

daisysteiner wrote:
zorba wrote:
There is definitely a thread of true pottiness in that family and listening to OMA now, it sounds like she may be one of its sources.
?



^^^I agree with all of this ^^^^


Thanks Daisy

I too feel equally angry about those things they are saying, the torture should never stop as far as these people are concerned

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Napia5 wrote:
Hi, Zorba. Your post is right on the money, IMO.

Quote:
How then in real life terms can they/will they be able to keep this reality out of the picture?


Sadly, this type of family dysfunction limps along on all levels. As long as the blame is shifted, and the guilt that goes along with it, people manage to survive. Mom blames dad for not being there, dad blames mom for marrying a younger man and not being there, daughter blames dad for calling in the PR team, locking her onto the path they took. Mom blames self for giving her blessing to go to Italy in the first place.
Dad blames mom and daughter for always being more of a burden than he wanted to handle. Blaming each other eases the burden or responsibility. As long as none of them alter the script, each one of them will be able to limp along, trying to ease their own consciences by pointing the finger at the other guy. It's typical of dysfunction. The family dynamic at its worst.


Thanks Nap

Would A Knox's anger be anger she actually feels towards her father?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

guermantes wrote:
Stephanie Kercher, seen here speaking after receiving Cosmo's Ultimate Women of the Year award (starts @ ~ 4 min 20 sec)

VIDEO: Cosmo's Ultimate Women of the Year winners

COSMOPOLITAN

Attachment:
Stephanie Kercher.JPG



Stephanie is just like her parents, gentle, loving, intelligent people, she definitely is a delight to listen to and to see.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

zorba wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
Hi, Zorba. Your post is right on the money, IMO.

Quote:
How then in real life terms can they/will they be able to keep this reality out of the picture?


Sadly, this type of family dysfunction limps along on all levels. As long as the blame is shifted, and the guilt that goes along with it, people manage to survive. Mom blames dad for not being there, dad blames mom for marrying a younger man and not being there, daughter blames dad for calling in the PR team, locking her onto the path they took. Mom blames self for giving her blessing to go to Italy in the first place.
Dad blames mom and daughter for always being more of a burden than he wanted to handle. Blaming each other eases the burden or responsibility. As long as none of them alter the script, each one of them will be able to limp along, trying to ease their own consciences by pointing the finger at the other guy. It's typical of dysfunction. The family dynamic at its worst.


Thanks Nap

Would A Knox's anger be anger she actually feels towards her father?


Are you talking the night of the murder? What I see there is Rage. Much, much more than anger at daddy. Just my opinion.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:41 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Napia5 wrote:
zorba wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
Hi, Zorba. Your post is right on the money, IMO.

Quote:
How then in real life terms can they/will they be able to keep this reality out of the picture?


Sadly, this type of family dysfunction limps along on all levels. As long as the blame is shifted, and the guilt that goes along with it, people manage to survive. Mom blames dad for not being there, dad blames mom for marrying a younger man and not being there, daughter blames dad for calling in the PR team, locking her onto the path they took. Mom blames self for giving her blessing to go to Italy in the first place.

Dad blames mom and daughter for always being more of a burden than he wanted to handle. Blaming each other eases the burden or responsibility. As long as none of them alter the script, each one of them will be able to limp along, trying to ease their own consciences by pointing the finger at the other guy. It's typical of dysfunction. The family dynamic at its worst.


Thanks Nap

Would A Knox's anger be anger she actually feels towards her father?


Are you talking the night of the murder? What I see there is Rage. Much, much more than anger at daddy. Just my opinion.


Yes, that night but I meant,
where would such a built-up amount of frustration (turned into rage) come from?

In pictures of her way back, she looks not like a person full of confidence, and I have always felt that there's an underlying thing about her that has been hidden, I mean I had a friend he was always so loud, like out of place and the type that makes you uncomfortable, he never fooled me, as I knew it was something to do with things that weren't right, where he was being the big mouth, loud, and making fun of others, I always knew it was one of those habits people have of standing on top of someone else to make themselves taller, so I was never one to encourage people like that, his type of out of place behaviour, that would have many laughing along with him, was just not right, one day he explained, hey listen, in fact, I'm very shy.

At that very moment everything fell into place, the reason for his out of place, out of time, unsettling behaviour, was a cover up, one used in order to temporarily overcome his inhibitions and nervousness, so yes for a long time he'd drink himself silly, along with so many others who did likewise, that helped him be loud too and most people would never have believed he was in fact shy, shyness, in his case, definitely going back to deep insecurity; his mother a lesbian (when this was totally unacceptable in society) had given him up for adoption to two friends of hers, rich friends. He grew up with every single thing, in what was basically a posh family, yet I remember being there and him shouting at his adoptive father and it made me very uncomfortable because I did not know what to say, it was such bad manners, to put me in that position, to force me to witness him being abusive, for whatever reason, real or valid, or not, to his dad. It made me look as if I condoned it

He hid that bit about the real situation, someone else told me by chance/coincidence about him, a girlfriend of mine worked as a carer, for a woman, and by chance my girlfriend somehow found out it was the mother of my friend.
So he must have felt a lot of pain about his mother not wanting him, even though the adoptive parents truly loved him, he treated them, especially his father, like a piece of shit.

He should not have demanded so much from his dad if his dad was so bad, he did demand a lot, he was very spoilt and nothing dad could do made it any better.

Me, at that time, I was far from my hometown, living in houses with lots of people in them, travelling the world, right out there on the edge, not high on drugs but high on life, yet there he was, always popping on in on people in these houses (at times I felt like a xhimp being observed in a zoo the way he remained on the outside and popped in almost as if to observe this real life that he did not partake of) but never taking a room, always keeping a room at the parents place where he'd come and go as he pleased, do whatever he liked, demand money, call his dad every name under the sun.

Yet never once did he have the honesty or courage and decency to explain to me what his problem was, he had no self-control either, to shout and rant he had the courage to do that, the messed-upness in the brain allowed him/compelled him, like a spoilt 10-year-old, to keep doing these things.

In fact, he was never a real friend, he was an acquaintance, as I said, popping in, though often over-exaggeratedly generous, leaving crates of beer behind for people, yet yeah, he was after all demanding hundreds from dad, so it wasn't (true generosity to my mind, knowing this about demanding money), that it was really worth a lot, not like he'd spent all week working and then leavin you a whole crate.

I think Knox's shyness and deep-seated insecurity goes back to her feeling abandoned by her father, because later he may have made amends but as a small girl she felt upset, and all of that rage was unleashed onto Meredith, after all, no way in the world could Meredith, and I mean just look at Steph, have done anything to upset her that could merit any kind of violence yet I think Knox murdered Meredith, not Sollecito, he is simply a spineless idiotic creep, and idiotic enough to have become wicked that night too, under Knox's cloak of demon-like mischievousness.

It could have been someone else than Meredith if they'd been unlucky enough to have been around at the wrong time as I feel this had been bubbling and brewing to come to what it did for years.

Though, I cannot imagine the unleashing has served to get it all out of Knox's system, it has served to totally gain control of her entire family
and in a way,
get them back,
so on that account,
the unleashing may well have served to get it out of her system,
she paid them back,
without even knowing it,
it was just a mechanism within her,
therefore,
it is not like she is conscious of why she acted the way she did,
but she definitely knows the things in her life that upset her and those things were in Seattle,
not abroad.

Not spending time in jail,
not upsetting her family,
not getting her family to tell lies,
not telling lies to her family,
not Meredith's death,
makes her sad,
the things that are Knox's true reasons for feeling sad and angry have not been revealed,
she has hidden them from absolutely everyone.
But she knows what they are.

Even in court, her crocodile tears,
if in an uncontrolled setting,
even in an interview,
could see her go out of her mind in anger/rage,
her whining in court was on the verge of that,
it's so easy to imagine her lose her rag completely and go bananas at someone, violently so.

It is all there.

All of why Meredith ended up dead.

It is all about Knox and nothing to do with anyone from the recent past,
it has everything to do with her and her way-back problems from childhood
and the people that in her mind,
did not value her,
possibly, she felt unloved by certain people she needed to feel loved by
and I'd say that would be
her father.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:03 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Well, Zorba, you never really know about people. What sets them off, what makes them tick. But, I know when i originally began reading about this case, there were certainly things that sent up red flags. I read the evidence, took my time with Massei, and looked at crime scene pictures and 'reconstructions'. I became convinced of their guilt. The WHY of the whole thing is another matter entirely.

One of the things that struck me was a comment made by Deanna. Something about Knox being so quirky and naive, or something to that effect, that Deanna had to tell her that some guy was actually hitting on her. I wasn't saving links in those days to be able to go back to the exact link, but I remember thinking that this comment read as being very honest. Not that it was true, per se, but that Deanna believed in her assessment. She believed she was giving a truthful statement about her sister.

This is the person Deanna knew. This wide-eyed, innocent Audrey Hepburn-type was what she saw in her sister. And I can't think of any movie where the innocent Audrey goes off for vacation and turns into the loud-mouthed, attention-seeking, bed jumping, drug-using young woman that we've been reading about. IMO, something was wrong. And it was wrong and brewing for a very long time. Until the lid blew off.

Take, for example the assault prank she pulled. I can't think of one woman who would find that kind of aggression funny in any way.
Pouring a drink on someone's head. Huh. Bits of aggression creeping through the cracks.

I don't believe the rage that surfaced that night was an immediate response to some slight, or the result of some new wound. I think it was a culmination of something that was festering for a long, long time. And that would place it, as you said, somewhere within the family.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:28 am   Post subject: MORE SEMEN STAINS   

Honor Bound page 185: Re the 'semen stains' on the pillow, Raffaele says "We asked for--and obtained--permission to inspect the pillow case that looked alot like semen on one of Guede's shoe prints. How could the prosecution have missed this? If the semen was fresh when Guede stepped on it, that meant it must have been produced on the night of the murder. We thought long and hard about demanding a full analysis, but we did not trust the Polizia Scientifica as far as we could spit and were deathly afraid they might construe that the semen was mine. So we held back."

Then the defense, after promising sex change operations to loony convicts, turns around and demands the following in Raffaele's Appeal:

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/appeal4.html

Quote:
Evidence on Pillowcase

There is a possible semen stain that was found on the pillow under Meredith's body. The defense is requesting that testing be done on this stain. It was originally stated by the court that the stain could not be dated because Meredith was sexually active so there was no reason to test it. Forensics expert Francesco Vinci found this same substance smeared in one of Rudy's shoe prints on the pillow. This proves this substance was wet at the time of the murder so it must have been deposited on the pillow at that time. This discovery was made using Crimescope. Why wasn't this substance tested to begin with? The investigators were presented with a murder with sexual assault and they neglected to test a substance that appears to be semen. If this substance tests positive for semen and it is attributed to Rudy, the entire theory made by the prosecution would be further proven false. The photo below shows the substance on the pillow smeared in one of Rudy's shoe prints.

The defense is asking for further investigation of Mario Joseph Alessi. Alessi is a prison inmate that claims to have had confidential conversations with Rudy Guede. During these conversations, Guede allegedly discusses sexual acts that could be attributed to the stains left on the pillow. The defense argues that Alessi’s statements contain details of the crime that only Guede would have known. These details confirm that these discussions actually took place. In light of this testimony, it is imperative that further testing be done on the substance found on the pillow."


Judge Hellmann, agreeing with Massei, decides there's no point in following up on this. Can we have an end to assorted groupies bringing up this argument in discussion, or will it be in Amanda's book as well? It's become boring. THERE WAS NO SEMEN, SO STOP GOING ON ABOUT IT, OK?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:15 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Speaking of Crimescope, the pillowcase picture is easy to find but where is the bathmat photo? Vinci doesn't seem to have used it (didn't show what he wanted to I suppose) but Massei did notice the crimescope image of the bathmat.

Quote:
Finally, there is a piece of data which the Court has uncontrovertibly adopted: the same images of the bathmat, shown in deepened colours by the lighting equipment of the Crimescope, do actually increase the impression of solidity of the size of the big toe (and also of the metatarsus), and augment the perception of the unity with the rest of the small mark whose detachment was suggested.

H/Z pushed this evidence aside claiming it is subjective. The 'objective' H/Z then follow up with a completely absurd scenario of Rudy losing his shoe during the fight with Meredith.

Quote:
However, this is no more than a mere subjective impression, lacking in any logical, let alone technical‐scientific support, and as such it is unsuitable for overcoming the objective data expressed just above.

Galati is almost making fun of the 'objective' H/Z on this topic.

Quote:
But there are further obvious and intrinsic contradictions in the judgment on this point: it is sufficient to read the following passage, relating to an argument of the first instance Court reported at length: "But this is nevertheless a mere subjective impression, without any logical, and even less, technical-scientific support" (p 98 of the contested sentence), although just earlier they asserted: "A simple visual examination of the photographs of the small mat makes it obvious that" (p 96 of the appeal judgment), and "The which is in striking and irremediable contrast with what leaps out to the eye..." (p 98 of the appealed judgment). It superimposes, therefore, on the presumed subjective impression of the first instance Court (for which it had just denied any argumentative value) its own definitely subjective impression, without giving, moreover, account of the reasons for which this should have been preferred to the former.

Embarrassing.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Heavy rains and floods across Umbria and Tuscany. Thinking of our friends there, and wishing them well.

Update: http://news.yahoo.com/three-die-italy-f ... 11280.html

Rivers overflowing, two-thirds of Venice flooded, 3 electrical workers dead as bridge collapses under their car. Prayers for every one.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:05 pm   Post subject: RUDY GUEDE'S FAILED FINAL APPEAL   

WHY I BELIEVE THE SUPREME COURT WILL OVERTURN THE HELLMANN/ZANETTI DECISION


It's bad enough that the fans of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito think the SC will rubber stamp the Appeal Court's decision, but they're getting obnoxious towards the Kerchers. If they're so sure of acquittal, they might just savour the moment? Speaking for myself, when the time comes, I won't be celebrating in any way. The Kerchers will never get their daughter back, so what's to celebrate?

But justice will be served by the people of Italy. Please refer to Rudy Guede's Final Appeal Sentencing Report posted by Michael here, and download to your computer. viewtopic.php?f=10&t=336

I believe the reason the SC will overturn Hellmann/Zanetti is found in those pages. I'll post my reasons later, but if you want to look at what the SC thinks of fanciful interpretations of evidence or rewriting what has already been established by lower courts (see the last few pages) then you'll know why I think the Galati/Costagliola Appeal will prevail.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ergon quoting Sollecito wrote:
Honor Bound page 185: Re the 'semen stains' on the pillow, Raffaele says "We asked for--and obtained--permission to inspect the pillow case that looked alot like semen on one of Guede's shoe prints. How could the prosecution have missed this? If the semen was fresh when Guede stepped on it, that meant it must have been produced on the night of the murder. We thought long and hard about demanding a full analysis, but we did not trust the Polizia Scientifica as far as we could spit and were deathly afraid they might construe that the semen was mine. So we held back."


Just as I've always maintained...the Sollecito defence deliberately waited until the end of the trial to request testing of the stain, when such a request was certain to be refused, because they DID NOT WANT IT TESTED for fear that if it was semen it may be a positive for Raffaele! Instead, they have sought solely to use the existence of the stain to attack the prosecution, but raising it ONLY when they are certain doing so will not result in its being tested. If such a test reveals it not to be semen (the most likely) it doesn't help them, if it comes back as Rudy's semen it doesn't help them since all courts have already concluded Rudy was present and took part in a sexual assault already, so it in no way exonerates Knox and Sollecito and if it comes back as Raffaele's, it destroys them. Therefore, they and their supporters really need to shut up about it.

ETA: By the way, Raffeale's claim that they feared testing because they may erroneously conclude (implied) that it was his is total BS. As we all know, Raffaele had the right to have his own experts present to oversee any such tests as they took place. Therefore, they did not fear that they might assign any semen to Raffaele in error, they feared that it might REALLY BE Raffaele's semen!

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

On page 235 he says that Knox's lawyer Dalla Vedova called the gangster Luciano Aviello and says it was over the objections of Giulia Bongiorno, but then mentions the next witness Mario Alessi, without revealing that Bongiorno called him :)

No mention either, on page 236 about the allegations of bribes offered by Bongiorno, just that Costagliola 'threatened' him with an investigation for lying. Of course, Hellmann still alows Alessi to testify that Rudy Guede spoke to him about masturbating over the body.

That's what I get from reading the book too, Michael. He and his supporters need to stop talking about it, but at this point I think it's the tail wagging the rather aimless dog :)
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:38 pm   Post subject: Re: MORE SEMEN STAINS   

Ergon wrote:
Honor Bound page 185: Re the 'semen stains' on the pillow, Raffaele says "We asked for--and obtained--permission to inspect the pillow case that looked alot like semen on one of Guede's shoe prints. How could the prosecution have missed this? If the semen was fresh when Guede stepped on it, that meant it must have been produced on the night of the murder. We thought long and hard about demanding a full analysis, but we did not trust the Polizia Scientifica as far as we could spit and were deathly afraid they might construe that the semen was mine. So we held back."

Then the defense, after promising sex change operations to loony convicts, turns around and demands the following in Raffaele's Appeal:

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/appeal4.html

Quote:
Evidence on Pillowcase

There is a possible semen stain that was found on the pillow under Meredith's body. The defense is requesting that testing be done on this stain. It was originally stated by the court that the stain could not be dated because Meredith was sexually active so there was no reason to test it. Forensics expert Francesco Vinci found this same substance smeared in one of Rudy's shoe prints on the pillow. This proves this substance was wet at the time of the murder so it must have been deposited on the pillow at that time. This discovery was made using Crimescope. Why wasn't this substance tested to begin with? The investigators were presented with a murder with sexual assault and they neglected to test a substance that appears to be semen. If this substance tests positive for semen and it is attributed to Rudy, the entire theory made by the prosecution would be further proven false. The photo below shows the substance on the pillow smeared in one of Rudy's shoe prints.

The defense is asking for further investigation of Mario Joseph Alessi. Alessi is a prison inmate that claims to have had confidential conversations with Rudy Guede. During these conversations, Guede allegedly discusses sexual acts that could be attributed to the stains left on the pillow. The defense argues that Alessi’s statements contain details of the crime that only Guede would have known. These details confirm that these discussions actually took place. In light of this testimony, it is imperative that further testing be done on the substance found on the pillow."


Judge Hellmann, agreeing with Massei, decides there's no point in following up on this. Can we have an end to assorted groupies bringing up this argument in discussion, or will it be in Amanda's book as well? It's become boring. THERE WAS NO SEMEN, SO STOP GOING ON ABOUT IT, OK?


How could they know it was the SAME substance, if it hadn't been tested, this is ranting on as though there were bucket loads of this stuff that resembled wallpaper paste, splashed around all over, if it had been relevant I''m sure it would have to have been tested, but whatever it was, if it was, was irrelevant, after all this idea that the prosecution team or thew police would manipulate anything is simply yet another fallacy put out by first of all department Knoxo Cube and co and then, getting in on the trick to add to their own brand, Sollecito's brand of obfuscatory manoeuvres in the dark, including the actual important things, no way did the prosecution or police have any other intention than getting those guilty tried, and that did not include getting an any old body but getting those who clearly showed they had more than a real lot to hide, namely, Knoxo Cubus and Sorry Sad F Sollecito the psycho pumpkin pushing, turnip plunging, gross you outer.
If the police and prosecution had anything they needed that was relevant, they'd have done whatever they had to do with it whether it incriminated the pair or exculpated them.

Would not surprise me in the slightest if Dad Solly Sorry Arse had started donating to the local police departments, I mean they've done a lot to insult the police but if it is like well that's them not here and money comes in maybe those pushing pens at police departments in the town there, in Bari and nearby, will swallow that and not give a shizenhausen as Knox's people would say as they polished up their boards saying Arbeit is Freiheit.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Nap

I responded to your post inviting others to add their viiews,
lovely post

then went to send it and though I had been logged in it said,

you have to be logged in to quote,
so I logged in,

knowing already my post had gone to neverland, but hoping, and yes,

it was gone,

so like you recently, I was unable to rewrite everything I said so had to leave it for now,

I hear a row of people sat on their stone seats in their Neo Nazi arena clapping and cheering at that, in the coldness of their denial theatrics.

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Some browsers like Google or Safari allow you to hit the back arrow and it takes you back to the form you filled out, zorba. Then hit the post button once, then try again if it doesn't come out. Unless you close the browser, in which case it clears everything.

I prefer Google myself, though it drives my malware program crazy :)
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Right Ergon, I use Google and sometimes what you said works, this time it was gone.

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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ergon wrote:
Heavy rains and floods across Umbria and Tuscany. Thinking of our friends there, and wishing them well.

Update: http://news.yahoo.com/three-die-italy-f ... 11280.html

Rivers overflowing, two-thirds of Venice flooded, 3 electrical workers dead as bridge collapses under their car. Prayers for every one.


I'd like to add my prayers to this.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:07 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

I think the blueish photo (bottom right) of the bathmat was the Crimescope picture but I am really not sure. Silly that the 'semen' photo is all over but I can't find the Crimescope picture of the bathmat. I find it rather clear from the blue photo that especially the top of the big toe shows one uninterrupted line, and not a big toe and 2nd toe merged together or whatever the defence claimed.

Attachment:
evidence.jpeg

I don't think there was any semen on the pillow by the way. At least not from RG or RS. RS's team would never even have mentioned the stain if it was his, and might have mentioned it a lot earlier if it was RG. I think the sexual assault was mostly a threatening, and taking off the clothes as a humiliation. RG certainly did grab since he had both his hands free (and the bruises show he was brutal), but also RS actively participated by cutting the bra. AK's role was to threaten and to keep Meredith quiet IMO.


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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:34 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Hi, max.

Quote:
I don't think there was any semen on the pillow by the way. At least not from RG or RS. RS's team would never even have mentioned the stain if it was his, and might have mentioned it a lot earlier if it was RG. I think the sexual assault was mostly a threatening, and taking off the clothes as a humiliation.


Totally agree with this.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:55 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Max wrote:
I think the blueish photo (bottom right) of the bathmat was the Crimescope picture but I am really not sure. Silly that the 'semen' photo is all over but I can't find the Crimescope picture of the bathmat. I find it rather clear from the blue photo that especially the top of the big toe shows one uninterrupted line, and not a big toe and 2nd toe merged together or whatever the defence claimed.


Hi, Max. Here, try this thread...Yummie's assessment of the bath mat print: RESEARCH ON THE BATHMAT PRINT

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:08 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Max wrote:
I don't think there was any semen on the pillow by the way. At least not from RG or RS. RS's team would never even have mentioned the stain if it was his, and might have mentioned it a lot earlier if it was RG. I think the sexual assault was mostly a threatening, and taking off the clothes as a humiliation. RG certainly did grab since he had both his hands free (and the bruises show he was brutal), but also RS actively participated by cutting the bra. AK's role was to threaten and to keep Meredith quiet IMO.


Whatever was on the pillow was fresh though, since it bonded to the sole of the shoe that left the footprints on the pillow. The substance was likely to be grease based (possibly from Meredith's Vaseline lip balm or make-up left on the pillow from when she had gone to sleep the previous night in her Halloween make-up), which would explain its easily bonding to the sole of the shoe and being spread about. Alternatively, it could have been urine, since it is common for urine to escape during panic or at time of death as muscles relax and we know that at some point the pillow came to below the victim's hips. Make-up, Vaseline and urine will glow under a blacklight. I share your view that it's highly doubtful to be semen.

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Offline beans


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:28 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

My solution to preventing the disappearance of posts when I try to submit them is to use the edit function to copy the post before I submit it. Then, if the system has logged me out, I can just log back in, paste the copied post into the box and submit it. It's kind of a simpleton's solution, but it works.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:55 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Michael wrote:
Max wrote:
I think the blueish photo (bottom right) of the bathmat was the Crimescope picture but I am really not sure. Silly that the 'semen' photo is all over but I can't find the Crimescope picture of the bathmat. I find it rather clear from the blue photo that especially the top of the big toe shows one uninterrupted line, and not a big toe and 2nd toe merged together or whatever the defence claimed.


Hi, Max. Here, try this thread...Yummie's assessment of the bath mat print: RESEARCH ON THE BATHMAT PRINT

Thanks. I like Yummi's assessment but it is based on a digitally enhanced image and not on the crimescope pictures I believe. The picture that Massei is referring to is a different one. Crimescope should show some fluorescent light just like with the pillow case. At least, that is how I understand it :)
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

beans wrote:
My solution to preventing the disappearance of posts when I try to submit them is to use the edit function to copy the post before I submit it. Then, if the system has logged me out, I can just log back in, paste the copied post into the box and submit it. It's kind of a simpleton's solution, but it works.



Hi Beans,

That's what I do too, most often, but sometimes I forget, even right clicking on my contraption and hitting the COPY button sees me okay, but I forgot even that, and this comes, the finding yourself logged out if you've had your machine switched on for ages, I also hadn't clicked on the Keep Me Logged In button here.

It was an in-depth post about the possible psychology of Knox, Sollecito & their families and the people they either sought out or appealed to.

Have to work right now.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

max wrote:
I find it rather clear from the blue photo that especially the top of the big toe shows one uninterrupted line, and not a big toe and 2nd toe merged together or whatever the defence claimed.


Max, if you want to take a closer look at RS's feet and toes, here are some pictures Jools recently posted in the .org gallery :)

Attachment:
RS Hallux Valgus deformity.png


Attachment:
RS Bunions.png


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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

zorba wrote:
I think Knox's shyness and deep-seated insecurity goes back to her feeling abandoned by her father, because later he may have made amends but as a small girl she felt upset, and all of that rage was unleashed onto Meredith...


zorba wrote:
I think Knox murdered Meredith, not Sollecito, he is simply a spineless idiotic creep, and idiotic enough to have become wicked that night too, under Knox's cloak of demon-like mischievousness.


zorba wrote:
It is all about Knox and nothing to do with anyone from the recent past,
it has everything to do with her and her way-back problems from childhood
and the people that in her mind,
did not value her,
possibly, she felt unloved by certain people she needed to feel loved by
and I'd say that would be
her father
.


Hello everybody,

I know I made a promise to quote from Dempsey's and Follain's books, and after one week there aren't any quotes to be seen. But you see, there's a reason. I am continuing my reading marathon. I have already finished two books and am now reading Nina Burleigh's The Fatal Gift of Beauty. Her book isn't bad actually and certainly much better written than Dempsey's, and full of interesting details about Knox, Sollecito and Guede's childhoods. I'd recommend reading it if you are interested and can find it in a library near you: Burleigh had done some good research before writing her book, had spoken to Rudy's friend from Seattle, Victor Oleinikov, who had told her about Rudy's bizarre sleep-walking episodes, among other things, etc I understand that Burleigh's final conclusions about who participated in the murder are wrong, but I haven't read that part of her book yet (I'm halfway through it on p.165, a chapter about Mignini).

So, when I do write up a new post and the quotes I want to be in a better form than I've been the last few days. I need to wait until the 'muse' strikes me. :) So while I'm waiting for that to happen, here is a short passage from Burleigh's book about Knox's relationship with her father, and I agree with everything Zorba wrote above, that it's part of Knox's psychological makeup and also part of a bigger issue affecting her everyday interactions with other people. The fact that she has been linked to a bevy of men (almost all her friends in Perugia were male, and Sollecito was just the latest addition to her conquests) indicates that she was overcompensating for a lack of attention from her father during childhood, by intentionally or unintentionally seeking out male company, dominating relationships, etc

Anyway, here is an excerpt from Burleigh's book (pp.33-34, Chapter 3 "Seattle"):

Quote:
Amanda tried to be a good daughter. ... That effort, given the tensions simmering among wife, ex-wife, Curt, and the competing sisters, came with a price. Only a few people who watched her closely could see it. On the surface she was all smiles and practical jokes; impervious to rejection, disappointment, other people's issues; resistant to the most tempestuous emotional weather. She almost never cried. Even her best friend marveled at her stoicism, her ability to hold it together.

But there was this:"She just couldn't sit still. You could be talking to her, and she would suddenly just get up and play guitar or read or just walk out of the room. Just like that." Some of her relatives thought her fidgetiness came from the fact that "she needed to be the center of attention." When the focus turned away from her, she just scooted right out.

That need was never stronger when Dad was around. She was always pranking him, always doing mischief, trying to get a laugh out of him, and, if not that, at least an angry glare. She poured extra salt on his food when his back was turned, sneaked up behind him and tapped him on the shoulder, then hid on the other side of him, only to pop into his face like a little jack-in-the-box. Sometimes she yanked the pillows out from behind him when he was on the couch with a beer in one hand and the remote in the other, just to get a reaction.

That was Amanda. She would just "do and deal with it later."


Burleigh, Nina. The Fatal Gift of Beauty: The Trials of Amanda Knox. New York: Broadway Books, 2011.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:28 pm   Post subject: HONOR BOUND MINI REVIEW   

Regarding the Massei Report, Sollecito has this to say on Page 213:

Quote:
"Such sentencing reports effectively say, I don't like the evidence has been presented, so I'll come up with my own version, which I'll pluck out of thin air if I have to. Naturally Massei's report begged question after question, some of which he attempted to answer, however tentatively".


Um, has he read the Hellmann Report?
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:17 am   Post subject: MORE HONOR BOUND MINI REVIEWS   

On being transferred to a new prison in Terni, page 125.

Quote:
"My thoughts turned frequently to another dark place, perhaps the darkest I have ever seen: the Dachau concentration camp....My experience, of course, was not on the same order of magnitude as the concentration camp inmates....And I wept for the extraordinary suffering that had preceded mine."


Ya think?

Regarding PM Mignini, page 208:

Quote:
"On January 22, 2010, Mignini was convicted on abuse-of-office charges and sentenced to sixteen months in prison, six more than even the prosecutor had requested....There remained, however, a crucial difference between Mignini the convicted criminal and Amanda and me. He was never placed in preventive custody. That meant, under the rules of Italian criminal procedure, he didn't need to worry about about jail time until his case had been heard all the way up the Corte di Cassazione, a process that would take years and supersede any dealings we would have with him"


He's wrong: sentences under two years do not result in prison time under the Italian criminal procedure. On the other hand, the Supreme Court ruled in 2008 that he and Amanda should not be placed under house arrest, due to the heinous nature of their crimes.

About his sister Vanessa, page 209:

Quote:
"One romantic relationship that had buoyed her for a while came to a crashing halt because of he case against me; Vanessa was tight-lipped about the subject, but apparently her partner didn't feel safe lying in bed and thinking about me knifing someone to death without warning. If I could do such a thing, then what might Vanessa, who shared my DNA, be capable of? Vanessa couldn't believe what she was hearing, and ended the relationship immediately."


Now you know what ITALIANS think of you, Raffaele. And while you might have won a reprieve, I doubt somehow that revulsion will go away.

Sigh. 266 pages of whining and 'poor me' to slog through.
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:20 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Thanks to Tara who posted the link to the website on .org:

The Meredith Kercher Fund

The website has been registered and created by Stephanie Kercher.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Thanks Nell.

Pixalart tweeted about it #meredithkercher:

Quote:
15 days until the launch http://ow.ly/fawwK #meredithkercher
5 hrs ago


https://twitter.com/search?q=%23meredithkercher&src=typd
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:14 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

I note that the movie which lists Saul Kassin as a cast member is being shown tonight at DOC NYC.
http://www.docnyc.net/film/central-park-five/

I'm left to wonder whether I will eventually be able to Google SaulKassin,AmandaKnox,FrankSfarzo,DougPreston,BruceFisher,movie
and get a hit or two.

I find it interesting that, while those of us on the side of Justice for Meredith Kercher face constant personal attacks regarding our motives, more and more of the Foakers' names are being connected to book deals and movies. Just an observation.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

guermantes wrote:
max wrote:
I find it rather clear from the blue photo that especially the top of the big toe shows one uninterrupted line, and not a big toe and 2nd toe merged together or whatever the defence claimed.


Max, if you want to take a closer look at RS's feet and toes, here are some pictures Jools recently posted in the .org gallery :)



God, looking at his toes, I mean, it's like you do not need a magnifying glass/micropscope or blown up pictures to see how those prints related to the murder look identical to his feet, this guy really does have some front the way he sat there with those prints in court, acting like he was astounded and all that trash.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

guermantes wrote:
zorba wrote:
I think Knox's shyness and deep-seated insecurity goes back to her feeling abandoned by her father, because later he may have made amends but as a small girl she felt upset, and all of that rage was unleashed onto Meredith...


zorba wrote:
I think Knox murdered Meredith, not Sollecito, he is simply a spineless idiotic creep, and idiotic enough to have become wicked that night too, under Knox's cloak of demon-like mischievousness.


zorba wrote:
It is all about Knox and nothing to do with anyone from the recent past,
it has everything to do with her and her way-back problems from childhood
and the people that in her mind,
did not value her,
possibly, she felt unloved by certain people she needed to feel loved by
and I'd say that would be
her father
.


Hello everybody,

I know I made a promise to quote from Dempsey's and Follain's books, and after one week there aren't any quotes to be seen. But you see, there's a reason. I am continuing my reading marathon. I have already finished two books and am now reading Nina Burleigh's The Fatal Gift of Beauty. Her book isn't bad actually and certainly much better written than Dempsey's, and full of interesting details about Knox, Sollecito and Guede's childhoods. I'd recommend reading it if you are interested and can find it in a library near you: Burleigh had done some good research before writing her book, had spoken to Rudy's friend from Seattle, Victor Oleinikov, who had told her about Rudy's bizarre sleep-walking episodes, among other things, etc I understand that Burleigh's final conclusions about who participated in the murder are wrong, but I haven't read that part of her book yet (I'm halfway through it on p.165, a chapter about Mignini).

So, when I do write up a new post and the quotes I want to be in a better form than I've been the last few days. I need to wait until the 'muse' strikes me. :) So while I'm waiting for that to happen, here is a short passage from Burleigh's book about Knox's relationship with her father, and I agree with everything Zorba wrote above, that it's part of Knox's psychological makeup and also part of a bigger issue affecting her everyday interactions with other people. The fact that she has been linked to a bevy of men (almost all her friends in Perugia were male, and Sollecito was just the latest addition to her conquests) indicates that she was overcompensating for a lack of attention from her father during childhood, by intentionally or unintentionally seeking out male company, dominating relationships, etc

Anyway, here is an excerpt from Burleigh's book (pp.33-34, Chapter 3 "Seattle"):

Quote:
Amanda tried to be a good daughter. ... That effort, given the tensions simmering among wife, ex-wife, Curt, and the competing sisters, came with a price. Only a few people who watched her closely could see it. On the surface she was all smiles and practical jokes; impervious to rejection, disappointment, other people's issues; resistant to the most tempestuous emotional weather. She almost never cried. Even her best friend marveled at her stoicism, her ability to hold it together.

But there was this:"She just couldn't sit still. You could be talking to her, and she would suddenly just get up and play guitar or read or just walk out of the room. Just like that." Some of her relatives thought her fidgetiness came from the fact that "she needed to be the center of attention." When the focus turned away from her, she just scooted right out.

That need was never stronger when Dad was around. She was always pranking him, always doing mischief, trying to get a laugh out of him, and, if not that, at least an angry glare. She poured extra salt on his food when his back was turned, sneaked up behind him and tapped him on the shoulder, then hid on the other side of him, only to pop into his face like a little jack-in-the-box. Sometimes she yanked the pillows out from behind him when he was on the couch with a beer in one hand and the remote in the other, just to get a reaction.

That was Amanda. She would just "do and deal with it later."


Burleigh, Nina. The Fatal Gift of Beauty: The Trials of Amanda Knox. New York: Broadway Books, 2011.



Wow Guer n all,


It's incredible to see that, because to my mind there you have Burleigh trying to spin an angle in Knox's favour, you know, the stuff like; well that's just Amanda you people should not try to see anything abnormal in the way she behaved.

Yeah sure but by doing that she's (Burleigh) gone and confirmed everything I said, it's almost like reading my own words, either she copied me or I her, but I copied nobody and she got it from the source. Only she would have been better off not revealing those things, as it really does help to have it confirmed, but then, I trust my insights, I've always had them, whether I liked it or not and sometimes I did not like what I see, and things shocked me, like knowing my father was going to die and stuff like that but when I let something sink in, in the end things do come to me, and it is or has nothing to do with trying to be hurtful, it has everything to do with an inner need to understand things.

Thanks for showing those things, all of you are braver than I am (for being able to read books from people like Sollecito and others even worse), I still have John's book here, right on my desk but to me it is an operation, an experience to read it and I cannot just do it, because reading that man's words will, to me, be like imagining myself as him, and that is very frightening and hard. When I read that book I want to have nothing else on my mind and give it the respect it deserves.


This Sollecito, he is unbelieveable, who the hell does he think he is kidding the ninny, with his comparing an Italian jail in the north to a concentration camp.
This is part of what makes him so transparent, even those who know nothing know saying stuff like that is just ridiculous.

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Last edited by zorba on Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:10 pm   Post subject: ADMINISTRATOR   

Administrator Note:

Hi, Everyone. Several topics: Firstly, I have added Stephanie Kercher's new website link to the top and bottom headers of PMF, also as a link on the index page and as a link in the links module on the Portal Page (it would be helpful if members could confirm for me that when clicking on them, all of those links work for them, both when signed and when logged out). PMF, as I'm sure will all of the other sites that support the Kerchers, offers our full support for Stephanie's new site dedicated to Meredith. However, I will also state for the record, PMF has had no involvement with that site's creation or with Stephanie Kercher. This is a landmark moment for Meredith, as for the first time in this case, the Kercher family now has a direct web presence in Meredith's name.

Second Topic. The planned new major PMF project I recently announced: This is still happening, however, I am delaying its commencement for about a week, meaning that it will now be launched around the middle or end of next week rather then this or last week. This is due to Nell having been poorly these last couple of weeks, and it's important that being team leader for the project, that she have time to familiarise herself with a website and its software that will be central to the project. So, now that Nell is better, I'm giving the extra time she needs to do that.

Third and last. All of the staff have been updating and adding to our reference subforums over recent weeks, so do browse through the subforums to see what's new.

Thank You :)

Michael

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ok, one issue, Michael. When logged in, if I click on the headers, I go to the page, but lose the PMF header. No way to click back to the PMF board.
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Offline dgfred


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:19 pm

Posts: 1082

Location: N.C., USA

Highscores: 13

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

guermantes wrote:
max wrote:
I find it rather clear from the blue photo that especially the top of the big toe shows one uninterrupted line, and not a big toe and 2nd toe merged together or whatever the defence claimed.


Max, if you want to take a closer look at RS's feet and toes, here are some pictures Jools recently posted in the .org gallery :)

Attachment:
RS Hallux Valgus deformity.png


Attachment:
RS Bunions.png



nw) Freako needs to wear slippers if he is going to post pics of his feet and STILL claim the footprint on the bathmat wasn't his.

His foot is a ringer for the print. mop-)
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Napia5 wrote:
Ok, one issue, Michael. When logged in, if I click on the headers, I go to the page, but lose the PMF header. No way to click back to the PMF board.


Hi, Napia5, when you click on the Perugia Remembers Meredith, ot The Meredith Kercher Fund, it should open a new tab, which you do not click back from. The board should still be there in the original tab. It worked for me, even in edit mode. Does that help?
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ergon wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
Ok, one issue, Michael. When logged in, if I click on the headers, I go to the page, but lose the PMF header. No way to click back to the PMF board.


Hi, Napia5, when you click on the Perugia Remembers Meredith, ot The Meredith Kercher Fund, it should open a new tab, which you do not click back from. The board should still be there in the original tab. It worked for me, even in edit mode. Does that help?



Must be something on my end. This happens when I am just a guest. I get a new tab. But, when I am logged on, no new tab. If I X out of the Meredith Kercher Fund, I am off the site completely.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Is this on your own, or a public computer, Napia5?
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Offline zorba


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Posts: 4233

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:14 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

I would say muh dears

that if Sollecito were put on a police identity parade, no need to have the witness look at faces, just the feet, talk about sore thumbs, I bet his dad (& sister) saw the prints and said, son, you need to have your feet amputated.

Anyhow, to keep things pleasant, that thing he's hanging upside down on, if he were to fall and break his neck, oh how I'd cry..........




........




....


..











NOT

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:34 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Napia5 wrote:
Ergon wrote:
Napia5 wrote:
Ok, one issue, Michael. When logged in, if I click on the headers, I go to the page, but lose the PMF header. No way to click back to the PMF board.


Hi, Napia5, when you click on the Perugia Remembers Meredith, ot The Meredith Kercher Fund, it should open a new tab, which you do not click back from. The board should still be there in the original tab. It worked for me, even in edit mode. Does that help?



Must be something on my end. This happens when I am just a guest. I get a new tab. But, when I am logged on, no new tab. If I X out of the Meredith Kercher Fund, I am off the site completely.



Hi Napia,

It could be any number of things causing it (I suspect whatever browser you are using). In your case, the easy solution as a workaround, from now on don't left click on those links...middle click on them with the mouse wheel instead. That will automatically open the clicked link in a new tab. And it's a faster way then right clicking on a link and then scrolling through the context menu to select "open in new tab", a method that also requires two clicks instead of one. I hope that helps :)

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline dollycat


Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 6:59 pm

Posts: 38

PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:47 am   Post subject: Re: ADMINISTRATOR   

Michael wrote:
Administrator Note:

Hi, Everyone. Several topics: Firstly, I have added Stephanie Kercher's new website link to the top and bottom headers of PMF, also as a link on the index page and as a link in the links module on the Portal Page (it would be helpful if members could confirm for me that when clicking on them, all of those links work for them, both when signed and when logged out). PMF, as I'm sure will all of the other sites that support the Kerchers, offers our full support for Stephanie's new site dedicated to Meredith. However, I will also state for the record, PMF has had no involvement with that site's creation or with Stephanie Kercher. This is a landmark moment for Meredith, as for the first time in this case, the Kercher family now has a direct web presence in Meredith's name.

Second Topic. The planned new major PMF project I recently announced: This is still happening, however, I am delaying its commencement for about a week, meaning that it will now be launched around the middle or end of next week rather then this or last week. This is due to Nell having been poorly these last couple of weeks, and it's important that being team leader for the project, that she have time to familiarise herself with a website and its software that will be central to the project. So, now that Nell is better, I'm giving the extra time she needs to do that.

Third and last. All of the staff have been updating and adding to our reference subforums over recent weeks, so do browse through the subforums to see what's new.

Thank You :)

Michael



Hi Michael - all links seem to be working from my end. I look forward to supporting Stephanie's fund. Hope everyone is well x
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Offline Napia5


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Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:23 pm

Posts: 1893

PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:15 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

This works. Thanks, Michael.
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Offline Napia5


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Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:23 pm

Posts: 1893

PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Looks like I missed the opportunity to have a copy of Special Agent Man signed.
I wasn't aware the former FBI agent was still making book-signing appearances.

http://agourahills.patch.com/articles/n ... -agent-man
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Offline daisysteiner


Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:59 pm

Posts: 490

PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Slightly off the current topic but...

Below is a tweet from Tim Minogue (UK journalist) who is explaining why Lord McAlpine is suing the Speaker’s wife, Sally Bercow (amongst others), in the wake of the Savile Child Abuse allegations (US & other foreign friends – google it as I do not have enough hours in my life to try and explain what it all means. Long story short - Big kids celebrity turns out to be abuser of 300 kids over 40+years. All comes out after celebrity dies, BBC implicated, UK media explodes).

There are huge legal libel parallels for this case with the Knox parents accusations in Italy. Essentially, Sally Bercow alluded on Twitter to the fact that a man had accused Lord McAlpine of abusing him as a child. It has since come out that the man in question had confused Lord McAlpine with his much nastier brother who, so it seems, is more likely to be the abuser (he died in 1990 so no fear of a libel case Michael ;) ) As Tim Minogue puts in his tweet below, it is libelous in the UK and elsewhere in Europe – including Italy – to repeat a libelous allegation with no knowledge whether that allegation is true or not. By the strict letter of UK and Italian law, if I were to say in print that Knox was hit by the Italian police and I know this because Amanda told me, I could be sued by said police in Italy or the UK. I know we all know this but I thought that such a succinct tweet like Mr Minogue’s was worth sharing as I haven’t seen it put so eloquently by someone who is so in the know about libel laws. This just shows how right Italy is to continue with the prosecution against the Knox parents as they did exactly that – repeat a serious allegation in print with no evidence to back themselves up. Its also proof that saying "I didn't know it was illegal" is no defence under any law in any country. Free speech is free but you can't go around making groundless accusations. The police may well of hit Amanda, I've felt like punching her myself on occasion, but without evidence there isn't much you can do. Doesn't make it right but it does make you stupid if you go around repeating stuff without being able to back it up.

Quote:
@sturdyAlex I'm just a journalist, but as such know that it's no defence in libel to say one is merely repeating someone else's allegation.
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Offline Ergon

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Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:10 pm   Post subject: DID FRANK SFARZO SCAM THIS LADY?   

Did Frank Sfarzo scam his supporters?


It would seem so. I had this feeling, after all the "he's losing his apartment!, his landlord wants 10,000 euros! and assorted entreaties to get behind him (Clive Wismayer reportedly said 'well we can pray for him' :) that this might happen. One of his best supporters, Bettina, with many pleading posts on his behalf, had this to say today.

Quote:
Bettina Post subject: Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011 Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:17 pm

Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 3:04 pm
Posts: 104

Thanks to everybody who called to support me in my time of need. Indeed I have learned many shameful things about the great truth teller from Perugia. Layer upon layer of lies, theft and bad treatment of supporters...some of it criminal. So sad.

I have been a faithful supporter and true friend thru the years. I financed his vacation to the islands. Nothing made him happy. He mocked me, told me I was a waste of flesh, and angered the locals with his arrogance.

He spoke badly of the many people who helped him....

Indeed, this has been most revealing. I believe the truth is good enough.

Sad but wiser, Bettina


No one deserves to be treated this way, and she has my sympathy.
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Offline malvern


Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:27 pm

Posts: 497

PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Well we could predict that day coming , Unfortunatly its a blow to the orchestrated conspiracy between Mignigni and the police, Frank's bread and butter.
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Offline Napia5


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Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:23 pm

Posts: 1893

PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:21 pm   Post subject: Re: DID FRANK SFARZO SCAM THIS LADY?   

Ergon wrote:
Did Frank Sfarzo scam his supporters?


It would seem so. I had this feeling, after all the "he's losing his apartment!, his landlord wants 10,000 euros! and assorted entreaties to get behind him (Clive Wismayer reportedly said 'well we can pray for him' :) that this might happen. One of his best supporters, Bettina, with many pleading posts on his behalf, had this to say today.

Quote:
Bettina Post subject: Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011 Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:17 pm

Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 3:04 pm
Posts: 104

Thanks to everybody who called to support me in my time of need. Indeed I have learned many shameful things about the great truth teller from Perugia. Layer upon layer of lies, theft and bad treatment of supporters...some of it criminal. So sad.

I have been a faithful supporter and true friend thru the years. I financed his vacation to the islands. Nothing made him happy. He mocked me, told me I was a waste of flesh, and angered the locals with his arrogance.

He spoke badly of the many people who helped him....

Indeed, this has been most revealing. I believe the truth is good enough.

Sad but wiser, Bettina


No one deserves to be treated this way, and she has my sympathy.



Glad you captured it when you did, Ergon, as it vanished in record time.
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Offline dgfred


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:19 pm

Posts: 1082

Location: N.C., USA

Highscores: 13

PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:36 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Yes E... nice work. Deleting it so quickly is very revealing too about the rest of the bunch.

That sort of ruins the joy of the Three Amigo pics too.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:22 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Wow... what a scandal. The Groupies have only themselves to blame for being too gullible and believing everything the con artist said. Now that he's got some sort of job with Oggi, shouldn't they stop sending him money and supporting him all together? Can I ask what 'islands' are we talking about? :)

Btw, isn't FS scheduled to return to court sometime this month?
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:09 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

She doesn't say, guermantes. But I checked, and yes it's been deleted. Her total posts now show as 103, down from 104 when she posted earlier today. But the "Frank Sfarzo-Losing apartment due to lack of funds" plea page is STILL up. I guess now he's got a job at Oggi he's left this band behind, and yes, wasn't he supposed to be in court?
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:12 am   Post subject: THE CAT'S OUT OF THE BAG~FRANK SFARZO   

The Cat's Out Of The Bag


Despite efforts to suppress at Injustice-Anywhere, members are commenting:

Quote:
MichaelB Post subject: Re: Today over at PMF Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:07 pm

Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:07 pm
Posts: 610
What's the deal with the allegiations Bettina has made about Frank? lies, theft, criminal behaviour?

Ergon has had an early Xmas finding that post

_________________


Comments, Bruce? The post, (and a reply I missed) disappeared within the hour, yet there you were, welcoming a new member! Francisco saw it, (probably the graceless reply someone wrote to Bettina), and Karen for Hair missed it entirely, I am sure.

Responses, Doug Preston, Judge Heavey, CPJ? Since you're responsible for unleashing Frank Sfarzo upon the world.

Frank Sfarzo? When's your date in court?

The Three Amigos? Are they now down to two?

Oh, and perhaps I-A owes an apology to its members, for deleting Bettina's post. Yet they still have a page up asking for donations to him! The mind boggles.
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Offline Napia5


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Posts: 1893

PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:23 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ergon, I have decided that my New Year's Resolution this year is going to involve taking lessons on this damn computer.I hope it's possible to teach an old dog some new tricks.

When I read Bettina's post this afternoon, I immediately popped over to IIP for a look-see, and not only did I see her post, I saw a response. Poor Bettina was told that it sounded as if she was having a PERSONAL problem with Frank (yes, the poster named him), as many of the posters had met him and no one else had a problem. I thought that there might have been some further reference to the problem upstream, as Bettina was thanking people for their calls, so some of them were apparently previously aware of the issue, but I saw nothing.
When I returned to her post, I refreshed the screen, and both posts were gone. Just a post from Bruce, welcoming a new member. Showed up pretty quick, I'd say. I didn't capture Bettina's post, or the response.
Where's the egg on my face smilie when I need it?
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:06 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

No problem, Napia5. I suggest people check the IA today over at PMF thread. They're in full damage control there. Serious allegations have been made by a member of IA that Frank Sfarzo, the 'journalist' who has been their entire case against PM Mignini, has engaged in criminal activity. At the very least, ge very ln advantage of a vulnerable person and took money from her.

So does Bruce Fisher look into it? Get Frank to issue a statement, ask Bettina to tell her side of the story? It looks like she tried to talk by PM but got sympathy but nothing else. So what does he do? Attack me, and suggest people not read here. Well, as one member pointed out, they contributed to Frank Sfarzo's fund, and they deserve to know. So if they dont get answers there, tgey most certainly will come here.

And if Bruce has an ounce of integrity, he will get to tge bottom of this.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:48 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

I'm sure Bruce will use his FBI connections to get this resolved quickly. Probably doing a background check as we speak. mop-)
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Offline louiehaha


Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:13 am

Posts: 348

PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:39 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Does anyone know if this is the woman who "loaned" Frank her PayPal account, as his was allegedly closed by PayPal in the middle of the big IIP campaign/member pat down for his phenomenal 10,000 "rent deposit" and "money to pay the police for beating him up" ie the domestic abuse charge?

That's like loaning out your bank account. The potential for abuse is quite high.
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Offline louiehaha


Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:13 am

Posts: 348

PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:53 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Nina Burleigh calls Frank Sfarzo a gadfly and lotus-eater, who wasted 20 years of his life on the club scene in Perugia..I guess she didn't turn up any evidence he was a film director, she found him to be a party planner:

Quote:
“It’s like a family,” said a Perugia writer and gadfly who goes by the name Frank Sfarzo, one of the men who let twenty years of his adult life slide away in the clubland of Perugia. Reflecting on his lotus-eater’s existence, he said, “You start doing these things, organizing parties, and then you get used to it. It’s a life."



Old tweet of Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt

Quote:
#Perugia docket: Blogger Sfarzo's resisting arrest hearing delayed to mid-Nov.


Should be about time for an update.
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Offline max


Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:55 am

Posts: 1564

PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:01 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

She expected some kind of return on investment then? He makes it rather clear that he just wants money. He rambles like a mad man in the post below. Suing all the nobodies on their IP address and it will be his retirement? Good luck with that! I think these clowns are better to be ignored but sometimes I understand one has to respond. It is a crazy world.

http://perugiashock.com/2012/10/03/the- ... mment-1824
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Offline zorba


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Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:11 am

Posts: 4233

Location: London

PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:35 am   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

That's funny..

Back when Commandant Sfarzo felt he was not getting the attention he demanded from Seattleites he reacted by suddenly writing even stranger stuff, stuff that looked like he was going against them, sort of like, look here, I can do this too you know.

To me it was quickly clear what he was all about, that's why I wrote all kinds of nonsense scenarios with him in them, about him, on his very own dumb blog,

At that time it was easy to see, as before his blog writing about Meredith he'd been parading salami and wine around trying to start some kind of business (visitors 20 in 2 years or something), but then in a truly unprofessional, niave, unskilled and stupid way.


His blog only gained attention simply because people wanted a platform to discuss these things, so like Reichfuhrer Darkspray, he just profited from that but being simple like her, let it go to his head, thinking somehow that he was popular, popularity never had a thing to do with anything, not for him and not for Darkspray.

_________________
Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
Ignorance of the law is no excuse


Last edited by zorba on Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline malvern


Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:27 pm

Posts: 497

PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Ergon wrote:
She doesn't say, guermantes. But I checked, and yes it's been deleted. Her total posts now show as 103, down from 104 when she posted earlier today. But the "Frank Sfarzo-Losing apartment due to lack of funds" plea page is STILL up. I guess now he's got a job at Oggi he's left this band behind, and yes, wasn't he supposed to be in court?

I saw the post on IIP and the reply that it must be a personal problem before both disappeared. The new member's arrival quickly distracted all from the fleeting comet... I have always thought of F as a grifter.
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Offline zorba


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Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:11 am

Posts: 4233

Location: London

PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

Yes with this twat in mind and then Sollecito, anyone would think they are brothers, but in a way, in his own way, this Frank is even nastier than Sollecito, definitely AS nasty at the very least. He still comes out with such nasty things, like looking today a moment, on the site with his scribbles, I saw left-hand side he has one that says something like Meredith's genepool, I looked no further than that, I mean I didn't open that shite of his, but it was exactly as he'd done right after Meredith's murder with his so terribly distasteful polls, one of which Do you think Meredith wa a nice person (click kere yes or no).

I mean if I hadn't been standoffish and hadn't already started hating the guy, when I saw that, that was it. The guy has lots he is hiding.

_________________
Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
Ignorance of the law is no excuse
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Offline Napia5


User avatar


Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:23 pm

Posts: 1893

PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -   

zorba wrote:
Yes with this twat in mind and then Sollecito, anyone would think they are brothers, but in a way, in his own way, this Frank is even nastier than Sollecito, definitely AS nasty at the very least. He still comes out with such nasty things, like looking today a moment, on the site with his scribbles, I saw left-hand side he has one that says something like Meredith's genepool, I looked no further than that, I mean I didn't open that shite of his, but it was exactly as he'd done right after Meredith's murder with his so terribly distasteful polls, one of which Do you think Meredith wa a nice person (click kere yes or no).

I mean if I hadn't been standoffish and hadn't already started hating the guy, when I saw that, that was it. The guy has lots he is hiding.


I agree, Zorba. And, unless I miss my guess, Bettina is about to be thrown under a very big bus.
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