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XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 - OCT 31, 12

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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:20 am   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

max wrote:
That is a family member Zorba. Donati was Maori's assistant IIRC, and not all that much in the picture except at the end where she pretty much accused the police of planting evidence. I believe this is her:
http://static2.oggi.it/wp-content/blogs ... 00y1uj.jpg


That's her right there. Spot on, max. I believe she works in Maori's law firm / office, Studio Maori

http://www.lexpoint.it/TabID/62/ID/9113/default.aspx

Anyone know if Maori has his own private law practice / legal firm?
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:24 am   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

All I know is that the one is the picture I placed, always seemed like a truly gullible chimp, I mean professional behaviour as opposed to someone stepping away from that, it seemed that way, and all of the emotional stuff that just looks so wrong/unproffessional from a lawyer.

Every photo/image I see of Knox and Sollecito shows them, in my view, as two entirely fake people, every facial expression faked, they do not appear genuine, and apart from all the rest of it, this is what I cannot even avoid sensing every time I look at their faces, in turn it apparently leads everyone involved with their charade to look fake as well.


I'd be useles as a lawyer because I could no defend a person once I realised they were in fact guilty, to my mind certain people, to start with, as it is relevant, in this case, definitely had to close off a whole lot to believe in these two people's innocence, to me it looks like they decided to just believe in the show Knox and Sollecito were and still are putting on.

Who could deny, that Sollecito seen at the time of the murder as opposed to later on, even in court, looked better in the later stage, in jail, as he wasn't a well person at the time Meredith was murdered,
that's obvious,
one might expect someone to look worse as a result of jail

what with all the stressl,

unlike a free person eating and drinking and doing whatever they liked,
so I don't think he had a bad time,
seems it brought him out of his obscurity, Knox was lending him a hand, but as she was, it meant she could pull his strings like a puppet, and that in my opinion is what she did too.
But he is not truly bright and is a damaged goods anyhow, so he was more than a willing victim. he had as much to do with it if you ask me, as she did.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:27 am   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

Hi that is not a family member Max (getting musled up here with who is saying what, oeps)

definitely not, she is Italian and I'm certain of that, and on Knox's team.

She was there cuddling Knox and all of that but she is not family.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:32 am   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

oh yeah, right looked like a family member, sorry, yes the way she carried on, it was so wrong, for a lawyer. I call it unprofessional.

All of this hugging and shit, I'm not sure that is usual behaviour in courts of law.

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Last edited by zorba on Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:50 am   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

zorba wrote:
oh yeah, right looked like a family member, sorry, yes the way she carried on, it was so wrong, for a lawyer. I call it unprofessional.

All of tghis hugging and shit, I'm not sure tht is usual behaviour in courts of law.

Yeah, did that dirty old guy Luciano Ghirga ever keep his hands off AK? So many times I thought why that guy not keep his hands to himself. I don't know but unprofessional is an understatement.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:29 am   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

I agree with zorba's and max's opinion about the unprofessional behaviour of Luciano Ghirga and Maria del Grosso. "Cuddling" really describes it best!

I also found the photo where Amanda Knox put her hand on that of Carlo Dalla Vedova weird. I found it highly inappropriate.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:44 am   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

A few examples. The "cuddling" is what I remember most, together with Amanda Knox flirting with Carlo Dalla Vedova in the courtroom.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:50 am   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

Yay-), just found this picture of Sollecito and Donati in the .org gallery. I may have overlooked it the first time. I think it's a screenshot from a video. I'll crop and resize it and add it to the document. Would that be good enough?

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RS + Lawyer Donati.png


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Offline max


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:10 am   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

Here is my submission for the disgust gallery.

http://img2-cdn.newser.com/image/313169 ... 05445.jpeg
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:47 am   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

But my absolute favorite pic is of Sollecito looking at his footprint in disbelief and wondering if it's his, and it's so obvious that it is. The almost triangular shape of the pad of his big toe is quite unique and different from the footprint geometry of Knox and Guede. Poor Raff has trouble recognizing his own footprint... :mrgreen:

Attachment:
-Is this really my foot-!-.jpg


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footprints-1.jpg


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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:02 am   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

Found this link re: Saul Kassin.

http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=sea ... -24333-001

It appears that he has made some minor corrections with regard to his artlcle on the Knox case. Anyone have any ideas how to track this back to determine what changes he made?
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:33 am   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

max wrote:
Here is my submission for the disgust gallery.



Excellent choice!


@max

If you want to show the photo in your post instead of the link, use the img-tags:

Code:
[img]http://img2-cdn.newser.com/image/313169-6-20091202105445.jpeg[/img]
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:47 am   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

Kermit has published a new piece on Douglas Preston. To read the article, please visit TJMK: The Truth And Nothing But The Truth: #2: On Contradictions, Here Preston Contradicts Preston.

The presentation is available for download: Click here.


For those who missed it, there was a first part published a few days ago, also on TJMK: The Truth And Nothing But The Truth #1: Placing The Noisy Claimant Doug Preston In The Hot Seat or alternatively, click here to download the presentation.


In this context there was also a new article published: How Doug Preston’s Wrong Claims In His MOF Afterword Were Often Corrected In The Past.


I hope you enjoy it, I sure did!

Thanks to Kermit for putting the facts straight!
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:28 am   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

Napia5 wrote:
Found this link re: Saul Kassin.

http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=sea ... -24333-001

It appears that he has made some minor corrections with regard to his artlcle on the Knox case. Anyone have any ideas how to track this back to determine what changes he made?


What an excellent find, Napia.

Quote:
Reports an error in "Why confessions trump innocence" by Saul M. Kassin ( American Psychologist, Advanced Online Publication, Apr 30, 2012, np). Minor corrections should be made in the description of the Amanda Knox case. These corrections are presented in the erratum. For the most recent and “official” opinion on this case, see the Hellmann-Zanetti Report on the Acquittal of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito–December 16, 2011, Translated into English (http://hellmannreport.wordpress.com/contents/). In addition, since the article was published Online First, the prosecution’s appeal of Knox’s acquittal has been scheduled to be heard by Italy’s highest appeals court on March 25, 2013. (The following abstract of the original article appeared in record 2012-11471-001.) As illustrated by the story of Amanda Knox and many others wrongfully convicted, false confessions often trump factual innocence. Focusing on consequences, recent research suggests that confessions are powerfully persuasive as a matter of logic and common sense; that many false confessions contain richly detailed narratives and accurate crime facts that appear to betray guilty knowledge; and that confessions in general can corrupt other evidence from lay witnesses and forensic experts—producing an illusion of false support. This latter phenomenon, termed “corroboration inflation,” suggests that pretrial corroboration requirements as well as the concept of “harmless error” on appeal are based on an erroneous presumption of independence among items of evidence. In addition to previously suggested reforms to police practices that are designed to curb the risk of false confessions, measures should be taken as well to minimize the rippling consequences of those confessions. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2012 APA, all rights reserved)


It astounds me how Saul Kassin uses Amanda Knox as an example for a person wrongfully convicted. She has not been exonerated based on new evidence or because they caught the real killers and she could be ruled out without the shadow of a doubt. In the best of the cases we can say she was acquitted based on reasonable doubt or lack of evidence and in the worst case it was a miscarriage of justice to acquit her given the evidence that points to her involvement. She is far from being a textbook example of someone wrongfully convicted.

I recommend reading the Hellmann-Zanetti motivations report in regards to the calumnia charge (page 21-25 in the translation). If it wasn't so sad, it would actually be funny to read.

Hellmann misses the point completely and fails to explain why Amanda was in a tight spot to begin with. Meredith's friends and roommates gave statements to police and none of them ended up in a tight spot, let alone accuse an innocent of murder. Reading Hellmann's motivations is like reading the comments from the Huffington Post. He might as well have copied them from there.

Raffaele Sollecito withdrew his alibi and recanted his statement. This is the moment when Amanda Knox starts to feel the heat, not when they find Patrick Lumumba's text message.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:19 am   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

Thanks Nell. I was a bit embarrassed to show it out in the open like that. Maybe AK does not know any better as she is just playing her 'game', but these old horny guys that call themselves lawyers...yuk! Speaking of embarrassments, Saul Kassin used to make sense when he said that nobody confesses in an hour. He might have been fooled by the all night interrogation tale which was just an hour or two till her false accusation, but I doubt we will see an erratum on that.

Quote:
The circumstances of interrogation are crucial. "Everybody has a breaking point. Nobody confesses falsely in an hour," says Kassin. The suspects in the Central Park case each spent between 14 and 30 hours under interrogation.

Children and the mentally handicapped, or people whose recollections are clouded by drugs or alcohol, are particularly susceptible.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles ... confession
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:07 am   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

max wrote:
zorba wrote:
oh yeah, right looked like a family member, sorry, yes the way she carried on, it was so wrong, for a lawyer. I call it unprofessional.

All of this hugging and shit, I'm not sure that is usual behaviour in courts of law.

Yeah, did that dirty old guy Luciano Ghirga ever keep his hands off AK? So many times I thought why that guy not keep his hands to himself. I don't know but unprofessional is an understatement.




Right, rewording: One of the least strong terms I'd use to describe the in-court behaviour from Knox's lawyer Grosso (= big) and the white-haired smiling uncle type )can't be bothered to remember his name) is unprofessional,

apart from that polite term, I'd also say in more clear terms, exactly why it is incorrect behaviour.

It is because it reeks of inequality and sexism.

After all, had this been Ted Jones, a MAN let's just say ages about Knox's age, would he have been treated in the same way, by 1) a female

Answer I reckon, definitely no, because it would look o wrong for a woman such as Grosso, to be comforting/cuddling/hugging her client, long before the case finished, as Madam Big (Grosso) did.
That would appear sexual way too quick, and everyone knows, so many men will always like attention like that from females.

Same thing with Sollecito, to me he appeared like a person enjoying his days out, the sitting with the female lawyers, he imagined probably, somehow, that they were some kind of girlfriend, after all, when locked up, it is not as though on a men's wing of a prison that there is a majority of females, nope, it's mainly men and now and then a female, the only place you will see females off the wings where prisoners are held and on other wings, are the wings where education is provided, where healthcare is provided, and then also in the prison store, where it'd be like a shop that the prisoners do not get to walk around in, they queue up or if under protection, will get taken out only when other prisoners are locked away or not in the vicinity, all of that has to be synchronised, between prison officers responsible for the different wings, so that they do not just take prisoners across from one wing to the other.

It has to be planned or they'd end up having two different wings meet up, where things can then be passed (drugs/weapons/messages) or fights can break out, or not even fights but attacks, so vulnerable prisoners get attacked because they are being kept away from the general prison population for their own good.

Once the general population (the run-of-the-mill prisoners waiting on remand or the convicted also still on the remand wings through lack of space on the wings housing the convicted, some staying right there on those convicted wings or else getting shipped out to prisons of varying categories, so open, half open, high-security depending on what they did wrong)
know that an individual committed any sexual offence, then that entire wing, will be waiting for it to happen, which means waiting for someone to attack that person, often prison staff have turned a blind eye to it, as they despise such individuals as much as the prisoners do.

It is part of the sickness of the prison regimes, because to start with, if you are a robber, and you rob banks, whereby you carry a weapon like a gun, and in the process of robbery, you lead those under attack to believe that you are going to use that gun on them if they do not do what you say, so like to the old to the young, young girls/cashiers, etc, and whoever else, then what makes you one hair better than the rapist?

The usual run-of-the mill prisoners, often have been in and out of youth detention and then on to prisons, many wind up spending more time in jail than out, and often for petty crimes but seeing as they have no tools in life with which to get on and may be thick anyhow, or for whatever other reasons, they keep committing the same old crimes; small theft, robbing people, burglary, fraud, and domestic violence.
Yet this last one, nobody in prisons views as similar to abusing a woman where the woman gets raped, no, as this violence towards women at home is a so-called domestic case, then this is apparently their business, like some notion of well, that's between man and wife sonny boy, or between them even if they are not married.

But what can one expect with the vast majority having very little education and the main theme, basically, in prison, being: fear and violence.

This notwithstanding, in prisons there may be less violence actually taking place than there is on the outside.
This is due to the fear and the drive to get to the release date as soon as possible, plus the control/monitoring in place.

However, there is always the fear of violence.
Reality shows that if one prisoner hits someone then after that the hitter cannot simply go away, he's still there locked up with the one he hurt, that's if the officers never heard or saw what happened, so only those really out to get someone and never mind the consequences fights.

Nonetheless, the sex criminals, they get attacked in such a way that there's no come back from that, and after the attack the prisoner attacked is going to want to be put under the protection rules whereby they get taken to a wing where there are only people in the same boat, not all of them for sex crimes, but for one reason or another cannot be kept on an ordinary wing.

Yet, again, with inequality, it seems Knox was not placed on any special wing.

Maybe she was though, and if she was, then all of those in the Happy Days images showing Knox enjoying a prison concert with the band coming in allowed to correspond privately with her, mean then that all prisoners present must have been in the same position (heavy crimes) or that Knox was simply among the ordinary run-of-the-mill prisoners.

Maybe that's because females have some other prison codes to their male counterparts.

I know that women in the UK prisons accused or found guilty of cruelty to elderly or kids, or involved in sex crimes, get the same kind of treatment as men receive, where they are hounded, hounded off the wing, so, I'm guessing in Italy, all of those we saw in the photos were in there for a lot of bad things themselves so they couldn't target Knox, and I think she would have been watched closely to make sure nothing happened to her.

The things Knox's lot claimed were wrong about Italy, were in fact totally all right, but the true wrong things, are such instances as that band being able to play in jail and then Knox to interact with them like they were her buddies and them to go on, as free people, to advertise Knox's innocence for her. Now that cannot be right.

There ought to have been a clause in the contract saying, you may at no time enter into correspondence with any of the inmates, you may not talk with others about the things you learned through the job. This is what confidentiality clauses contain in company deeds/contracts, so that workers do not leave and reveal the companies data.

Surely in jail, if allowed such a privilege, it should work neither as something that favours a convicted prisoner nor puts them in a bad light, it should not work against or for them.
It was used in her favour and it should be investigated how that is possible within the European Courts of Justice Framework/Directives, to which Italy is signed up as a member state.
It cannot be let go of because reversed it would be unfair for a band to show up in jail then go on YouTube saying, yep, she sure as hell is guilty.

That would not be accepted or acceptable and neither should this Knox promotion through the band, I know why it was allowed to happen, it is because civil servants arranged the concert, through their prison job positions, but positions lacking legal knowledge and expertise, not on Italian law and not in the wide European spectrum of directives, which join up to a number of internationally agreed rules & regulations too.

Some countries signed up to some parts, other countries signed up to more of the international directives, but there are a few that hardly any could manage not to sign up to and to then be accepted as a country protecting human rights. Italy hasn't signed up to any less than America has, in fact, in accordance with the European directives, which monitor what countries in Europe do, Italy has signed up to far more than America has because America is not included and makes up its own in league with nobody, all except when signing to an international agreement.

What I'm saying is this was all about law but it was all done as if this was within the framework of people convicted of nothing.

And that is actually illegal to do such things, because law cannot be biased.
This has been a true injustice to start with, let alone the other injustices heaped up against Meredith's right to get her killers caught and brought to justice, I say Meredith's right, yes in absence, death, but as human beings, we regard those killed as still being human, though now dead, to be treated this way is to throw a person onto a junkheap as though they never existed, yes it is for Meredith even in death that justice must be seen to be done and be done for sure.

I don't think the same could happen in the UK or the USA.
And even this could be potentially used by the prosecution in a summing up of contributory factors leading to a false impression of what Knox is all about, it has biased the case, in Knox's favour. So it should - even if it cannot be undone or even if nobody can be reprimanded for it/prosecuted for it - be made clear that all of that should not be considered at all in court when trying to get to the truth of who these actors were and are and what the truth is.
For what would have been the case had a band gone into jail and not liked Knox? What if they'd come out and had started saying, we took an instant dislike to the person Knox, we think she killed Meredith Kercher cold blood, she spoke to use and we could tell by her face and her shifty eye that she was telling lies, in fact we asked a few questions and she got very muddled up and couldn't reply, and we aren't even lawyers.


Her family would have had that all announced in court, how it was a total conspiracy put into motion by Mignini, and all of Italy as they definitely hated Americans.
Truth is, it is Knox's family who have come across as total xenophobes, because they latched onto every single angle to use for themselves, the main one about the unworthiness of a black human being, by doing everything they could to make him fit into the already deeply embedded and established stereotypes about black people, and thereby, very much in place as stereotypes in AMERICA, but not only America.

There must be a dividing line, in Italy, with Knox and that band that loved her so much, there was nothing, and it is so wrong that they could, after their visit, publicise details and say the things they did. On that basis, the appearance should never have been allowed.

So if Italy is anything like it is in the United Kingdom, prisoners there would have been using this tool-to-make-me-feel-less-bad-about the things I did wrong, in order to gain leverage, and they too would drive any sex offender off the wing, some of them get killed, because crime in prison tends to be very extreme, so prisoners are making own tools and it really is a question of it's you or me.

Though prisoners are allowed nothing that could be used as a weapon, somehow these materials get created/found. so one way is that prisoners were allowed big batteries, like very heavy, but then only under strict control, but somehow here is always ways for prisoners to get these marked objects out of the control system in place, the answerability for each one, it might be because a prisoner gets to leave/be released and somehow passes the battery on to someone else or says it has been stolen, after selling it, and though there's nowhere to hide stuff, somehow they still hide stuff, that's because there are only so and o many officers and they do not search every single one.

This means, Sollecito in no way would have been forced to go on a protected wing, he would have demanded it, as he would have had no life among the ordinary prisoners; prisoners are all fed up, angry, cut off from everything, an so this small angle where they can point to someone else as being the true baddy, is why it goes on.

So there he is, on the protected wing, to make sure he would not get harmed as it is the prison's duty to protect, and certainly in a high-profile case such as this was through all of the publicity, does anyone in their right mind believe that the prison authorities or even individual officers were ever going to start abusing Sollecito in any way, taking thereby such a risk in doing so, that they themselves would be in trouble as a result of that if it came to light and it sure would have, had it actually taken place?

No way. They made sure nothing happened to him from either con or cop or prison regime and those executing it.

And like Knox, did he ever make a formal complaint, what with all of his lawyery folk to take care of his highly entitled self, why in the world wouldn't they have, they wouldn't because he didn't get abused in any way at all. Yet more lies.


So there you have Sollecito, looking like he is out for a day to Disneyland, ''in a court where HE is being tried" now would you ever, happy happy jolly, smiling, waving, I ask did he show any signs of being deeply upset for either himself or let alone Meredith, of course not, as nobody mistreated him, the only mistreaters it seems clear, was him and her.

He gets his cuddles too then, from what looked like his mother, so alike they looked, he and Bongiorno, however what Bonny did was the usual Italian formal greeting that is warm but is not a thing that could ever be confused with sex or care given by a family member or perhaps, well, I was going to say counsellor but that's wrong because these day professionals are not even allowed to do any of these things, like touching, because there has been too much abuse, like teachers putting arms around a female student, each time, when walking around the class, and the girls not liking it or feeling comfortable with it, so none of it is acceptable any longer and those in professions such as these are not allowed to be touching people.

What then is it with a lawyer even if of the same sex, who acts more like Knox's auntie, in their a hugging and a cuddling, comforting Knox, it is a kind of favouritism and in no way should she ever have been doing that, that's just tough luck, when you are on trial for murder, it's tough, but in no way are you supposed to have all of these people touching you physically.

This is the reason for me that I was astounded to learn that Grosso was a lawyer, I couldn't believe how she repeatedly did all of that comforting, once I knew she was a lawyer, I couldn't help think there was something wrong with her, and that thing was, that no matter what her qualifications were, she was nevertheless unintelligent, if she did not know that her court behaviour towards Knox was a no no, that it was wrong.

What she did, was crate a bias, a show that created bias, leaning to Knox's side. There was no neutrality, because to be making a show like that for all to see in the open courtroom led those observing, most importantly the lay judges, away from reality, away from the seriousness, away from the actual positions of each player, so there you have Grosso cuddling like she was Knox's auntie but it seemed to say, that loose from her being a lawyer, she just believed that Knox was innocent.
And that is why the physical behaviour was all wrong, and should be illegal in courts of law.

Ah look what they've done to you, ah come here pet, you poor poor thing, now now, here, ah you poor poor thing.
This has created bias in court.

To conclude: the main injustice in my opinion is that Knox and Sollecito are not in prison, convicted of Meredith's murder.

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Last edited by zorba on Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:30 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:11 am   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

Grosso ought to be a nurse not a lawyer

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:54 am   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

Most working in prisons know hardly anything about the law, but it is the governor and chief officers who should know certain things.

Considering the way the jailhouse concert performances were arranged, it seems those employed by the prison who have no training in law in any way and would have been given only rudimentary details/facts, have gone to their jobs and managed to arrange things in the same way they would were they working at a concert hall or in an office, for this is all they are, office employees, ones that happen to have applied for and managed to get a job in a prison.

When showing up for work, they like everyone else can be searched, mostly will not be, only randomly as a rule, and then they go into their jobs. Many who work as prison officers in Britain, do not have a lot of education, maybe they were painters and decorators, an electrician, a shop worker, but the draw-effect of prison is the pay and pension schemes.

However, those in the offices within a prison, in managerial roles, counselling, whatever else, teachers, etc, they have very little trouble doing their work, the office workers will hardly ever see the prisoners.

Those in charge of probation and staff employed in the creative therapy areas, would have arranged that concert.

But they were not monitored correctly, because maybe, for instance, the creative therapist had more language skills, more qualifications than anyone else except medical staff and teachers, so then those prion officers encountering such well-educated employees, would be in a way, sort of subservient, not exactly in awe, but have that type of unworded/spoken respect for them, seeing them as their superiors, though these well-educated so-called superiors do not officially have that position over any prison officer. They have different roles.

However, it is the governors who have to sign to say yes, and they are of the same pedigree as a trained person, those of the calibres in higher education, like that of the creative therapist, and those having come from the business world with managerial skills, and then entered the prison service more often than not primarily because they got offered lots of money to do so.

Therefore, the governors leave tasks to those practitioners in their separate roles, when in fact the governors should have been moitoring the goings-on and should have been using their own minds and knowledge to work out and that it is a no-no to bring in a band that is going to compromise the carrying out of justice by either the outsiders criticising the inmates or praising them and declaring them mistreated and innocent, as this band did.

In fact now that I'm writing about it, I think I ought to get in touch with the European Courts to bring this matter to their attention, since these practices are forbidden and the prison in Perugia should never have allowed a band in on those terms.

The prison authorities need to have rules in place that are regularly monitored so that situation like the one where Knox go to misuse the system cannot take place.

1) They took care of her, as they did Sollecito, fed her cakes, got her coffee, then she said they starved her.

2) She came out with a whole lot of lies about Patrick then she said they hit her.

3) She gets out of jail after being treated like someone at a girls boarding school (thu not in prison) and after being comforted by prison staff, as her family declared she had, after returning from court, then what does she do, she accuses yet more people, prison staff of abuse.

But angel Knox, no, she never abused anyone. Sure.

4) If a band was allowed in, on those terms, then equally, a different band should have been allowed in too, and been allowed to declare Knox guilty of murder if they so chose to do.

5) Would that make sense?

6) No, and neither should letting a band in without making it very clear to them what position they were permitted to have.

7) They obviously were told nothing and nothing was required of or from them.

And I am guessing, that after the crap Knox went on to say about prison staff, they will have regretted being so kind to her.

8) That's because they should have had a system in place where Knox would never have been able to make such false claims, a system where it is a rule that no prisoner is ever dealt with unless there are two officers present.

9) But maybe the truth is, that this is indeed the rule in place and that yet again, Knox hs lied through her family with their wild accusations that they have worked up out will have no backlash.

10) Anyone like a Knox can say what they like, but it is all hearsay, when done within the context as laid out by me here above.

11) Strange isn't it, how Knox said nothing about abuse at the time.

12) The only things she revealed were how very kind they were to her dear self in prison, comforting her after she returned to the jail, etc.

13) It was revealed through her family and can be verified as such.

14) They said those things to pretend that Knox was very popular in Prison.

15) It was as if to say see, they think she is innocent, see how they comfort her, the bad bad police the bad bad courts doing that to this poor, dear, sweet girl, comfort, comfiort, comfort.

16) And is it in any conceivable way believable that it was some elderly prison officer to blame, yet again, for sexual matters?

17) A man who, ready for pension and more likely to have had prostate problems than actively seeking out women would hardly risk his life's work and career.

18) A man who worked all of those years without a single complaint from anyone.

19)
a/ At the same time all those years running his little family, a couple of kids he has paid for to get further ahead/do btter than he had the opportunity to do; would he go and do that, mess about with a Ms Knox, who already clearly had caused enough trouble, a dangerous individual known for falsely accusing others?

b/ Reality shows Knox was in the news every day.

c/ I mean the prison officer would have to have been out of his mind to do that, to take such risks.

d/ And a fellow Knox co-prisoner means nothing as obviously people build up bonds in prison and are willing to lie sometimes, the value of someone coming out with any back-up statement, so much later, is ridiculous and has no value.

e/ The officer simply would never have done those things, and is it in any way conceivably believable that he was the one on about sex when everything Knox did or said had some strange connection to the sexual.

20) Every way she looked, her facial gestures, her appearance... never caring to take care for how she came across by means of her clothing, point to her having something wrong with her mentally, in relationship I think to some insecurity the subject of which being the last thing any of her family is ever going to talk about.

21) Yet this 'insecurity' lies as motive at the very heart of the murder.

22) Indeed it seems like Knox dressed provocatively on purpose; since she was so far gone in her own mind she was unable to see how bad her behaviour actually looked.

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Last edited by zorba on Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:12 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:47 pm   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

Hi to @ll,

As DanielSC and others have been asking about Michael's absence, I would like to inform the membership that Michael is taking a break due to personal reasons. He'll be back as soon as circumstances permit.


~Ergon
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Offline Kermit


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:26 pm   Post subject: TALL vs. TRUE TALES . . .   

Nell wrote:
Kermit has published a new piece on Douglas Preston ...
The presentation is available for download: Click here.

I hope you enjoy it, I sure did!

Thanks to Kermit for putting the facts straight!

Hey Nell, the truth is that most of the issues that are in the powerpoints come from our discussions on Meredith's murder case. The presentations are simply a visual vehicle to bring it all together.

I think that this powerpoint, with the first two questions of many that we the public will be asking of Preston and Spezi, is quite important: if you can't trust the Start of a "True Story" to be true, and if you can't trust the End of a "True Story" to be true, then what should you think of the middle?

I know that the Preston/Spezi angle of the Monster of Florence in our discussions might be a little tedious for some of the readers here, but given the active participation up until now of this particular "Dynamic Duo" (didn't you always get the impression that Batman and Robin wore their underwear on the outside?) in sliming Mignini and opining on the suspects in Meredith's murder, I think it's worthwhile to evaluate just how far Preston's and Spezi's truth can travel (my own conclusion: not very far).

My problem now is to decide on the next question for Preston and Spezi ... should it be about how key MoF characters disappear in Preston's book? About how much real investigation Preston and Spezi did on the case since Preston's arrival in Italy in 2000? About their treatment of their favourite suspect? the list goes on and on...
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

@Kermit, I hope you write about Magdalen Nabb, who ALSO wrote a book called "The Monster Of Florence", albeit as fiction? Here's a series about her work http://italian-mysteries.com/nabb-interview-part08.html

When she writes "I gave information to a journalist who knew the case from the beginning and he published a series of articles on a daily basis during the appeal." Is she referring to Mario Spezi?
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Offline ttrroonniicc


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   



Link: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/silvio-berlusconi/9636315/Silvio-Berlusconi-sentenced-to-four-years-in-jail.html
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

Love the picture, tron. Looks like someone pulled the chair right out from under him!
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Offline ttrroonniicc


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

Thats Berlusconi sitting down in the Italian Parliament
Here's another photo from the same set

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Offline Kermit


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:18 pm   Post subject: GIVE RECOGNITION WHERE RECOGNITION'S DUE ...   

Ergon wrote:
@Kermit, I hope you write about Magdalen Nabb, who ALSO wrote a book called "The Monster Of Florence", albeit as fiction? Here's a series about her work http://italian-mysteries.com/nabb-interview-part08.html

When she writes "I gave information to a journalist who knew the case from the beginning and he published a series of articles on a daily basis during the appeal." Is she referring to Mario Spezi?
Hi Ergon,

Don't you worry, there will be a whole mega-presentation dedicated to Magdalen Nabb as part of the "Questions for Preston and Spezi" collection. (It will take some time ... Preston is going to be ticked off ... it would have been so much easier for him simply to have responded to my questions by email).

Nabb was partially recognised (with an alias that she may have requested) in Spezi's Italian version of the tale, but Preston with his super-hero (ie. Spezi and him) focus couldn't have for other writers who were actually on top of the facts and evidence and Spezi's theory (which wasn't really Spezi's but Nabb's and some carabinieri officers').

So Preston did what was easiest for him to do: just bleach Nabb completely out of the story. She was (and is, even though she died in 2007 ) a complication for him.
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Offline ttrroonniicc


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

Last year Berlusconi was asking Obama to get him off the hook
Obama was like "whaddyawantmetadoabartit"



05/27/11 ROME — Italian Premier Silvio Berlusconi has taken his claim that he is being persecuted by leftist judges to the G-8 summit, telling a clearly perplexed President Barack Obama that in Italy they represent "almost a dictatorship."

His comments carried on Italian TV news broadcasts from the summit in Deauville, France, set off a barrage of criticism Friday from Italian magistrates and his political opponents.

Italians are used to such statements from Berlusconi, but Obama seemed surprised when Berlusconi approached him and said through an interpreter that his government has proposed a judicial reform because "we have almost a dictatorship of leftist judges."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/27/berlusconi-obama-g8-summit_n_867985.html
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   



Hi tron,

Thanks for posting this. I just heard it on the morning news. He is expected to appeal the sentence.
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Offline ttrroonniicc


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

Nell wrote:
Thanks for posting this. I just heard it on the morning news. He is expected to appeal the sentence.

He'll be out in a year (if he ever goes in)

Costa Concordia captain is suing for unfair dismissal (he wants his job back)
Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito got out
There's no chance in hell Berlusconi will be jailed

"Former Italian PM Silvio Berlusconi has been sentenced to four years in prison for tax evasion by a Milan court. His sentence was immediately reduced to one year under a 2006 amnesty plan to ease overcrowding in in Italian jails."

Berlusconi decried what he claimed was a politicized verdict stemming from what he views as left-leaning magistrates while speaking on his Mediaset television station Friday.

"If you can't count on impartial judges in a country, the country becomes uncivil, barbarian and unlivable and stops being a democracy. It's sad, but the situation of our country today is that way," he said.

http://rt.com/news/italy-berlusconi-jail-sentence-322/

Were Hellman / Massei, of differing political orientations?
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Offline Emerald


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 2:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

ttrroonniicc, I had more positive thoughts about Berlosconi's guilty verdict. Maybe he won't spend anytime in jail, but at least the courts aren't afraid of rendering that kind of verdict. Gave me hope the new court will not fear the evidence of Amanda's case.

That guilty verdict for the scientists who did not predict the earthquake was moronic, but it seems the courts are finally getting some nerve.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 8:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

Kermit has just posted a second Powerpoint presentation about Doug Preston and Mario Spezi and their factual inaccuracies TJMK

This reminds me of "Three Cups of Tea" writer Greg Mortenson. Famed mountaineer Jon Krakauer wrote an expose on him in "Three Cups of Deceit" which is an e-book on Amazon. A lot of the information in the book and the '60 Minutes' expose came from Pakistani sources, including my cousin who used to organise many of the expeditions to the Karakorams years back and knows Krakauer well. He tells me that there is no way that Mortenson was in the village where he claims he was held captive. Mortenson also put a picture of his guide, the man who actually took him around the area, in the book and falsely called him a Taliban sympathiser, thus endangering his life.

This brings us to American writers who embellish their tales in order to become rich, so please, keep these excellent posts coming, Kermit. Another area I hope you'll cover is about Mignini's so-called obsession with the 'satanic'. A bit rich coming from Preston, but also, keep in mind several carabinieri also had the opinion that the MOF slayings were carried out by a satanic cult, or at least, by someone influenced by such themes. I was always annoyed by North American writers like Burleigh who convert their rationalistic scepticism into lies, without acknowledging that there really is a culture of people who in fact are influenced by satanism. But not Mignini, I hasten to add. I know that Spezi is in the 'rationalist' camp, and believe he allowed that to color his journalistic objectivity, which Preston never had much of to begin with. That man does carry a grudge a very long way, doesn't he?

Three things that can destroy the career of any writer, journalist, or editor.

a) Making up a story then lying to your readers about it.
b) Plagiarism.
c) Not attributing or fact-checking your source material if you're writing non-fiction.

Looking forward to the rest of your series.
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

Hi Ergon,

There is also a new article available on TJMK that I recommend reading regarding the MoF book, see my post from October 26 quoted below:


Nell wrote:
Kermit has published a new piece on Douglas Preston. To read the article, please visit TJMK: The Truth And Nothing But The Truth: #2: On Contradictions, Here Preston Contradicts Preston.

The presentation is available for download: Click here.


For those who missed it, there was a first part published a few days ago, also on TJMK: The Truth And Nothing But The Truth #1: Placing The Noisy Claimant Doug Preston In The Hot Seat or alternatively, click here to download the presentation.


In this context there was also a new article published: How Doug Preston’s Wrong Claims In His MOF Afterword Were Often Corrected In The Past.


I hope you enjoy it, I sure did!

Thanks to Kermit for putting the facts straight!
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:41 pm   Post subject: KASSIN CORRECTS   

Napia5 wrote:
Found this link re: Saul Kassin.

http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=sea ... -24333-001

It appears that he has made some minor corrections with regard to his artlcle on the Knox case. Anyone have any ideas how to track this back to determine what changes he made?


Hi Napia,

brmull from .org has seen your post and shown interest in finding out what the corrections are. He wrote the following on .org:

Quote:
Re: XXX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCTOBER 27, 2012 -

Post by brmull » 27 Oct 2012, 21:00
Posts: 1272
Images: 10
Joined: 16 Oct 2011, 02:36


Let's start out this new thread on a positive note, h/t .NET:

Quote:
American Psychologist, vol 67(6) wrote:Corrections and updates to Kassin (2012). "Why confessions trump innocence" by Saul M. Kassin (American Psychologist, Advanced Online Publication, Apr 30, 2012, np). Minor corrections should be made in the description of the Amanda Knox case. These corrections are presented in the erratum. For the most recent and “official” opinion on this case, see the Hellmann-Zanetti Report on the Acquittal of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito–December 16, 2011, Translated into English (http://hellmannreport.wordpress.com/contents/). In addition, since the article was published Online First, the prosecution’s appeal of Knox’s acquittal has been scheduled to be heard by Italy’s highest appeals court on March 25, 2013.



I'm going to pull the article later today and see what the "erratum" (euphemistically called an "update") actually says, but suffice it to say for now that when you're forced to put an asterisk on your work like this it's a pretty big deal. And I do think PMF/TJMK had something to do with it.


It am curious about it.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

Thanks, Nell. I'm curious also.
This is a link to the original article I was reading when I found the link to Kassin. http://forensicpsychologist.blogspot.co ... false.html

It's an article by Karen Franklin PhD. I had to back-track to re-find it. (sigh)
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:26 am   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

Emerald wrote:
ttrroonniicc, I had more positive thoughts about Berlosconi's guilty verdict. Maybe he won't spend anytime in jail, but at least the courts aren't afraid of rendering that kind of verdict. Gave me hope the new court will not fear the evidence of Amanda's case.

That guilty verdict for the scientists who did not predict the earthquake was moronic, but it seems the courts are finally getting some nerve.

Bit OT, but it is interesting to see that you shouldn't believe everything you read in the papers. Those scientists weren't convicted because they didn't predict the earthquake. They were convicted because there is evidence that they deliberately gave false reassuring statements. People that would normally go outside when there was a tremble, now stayed inside because of these reassurances, and we know the result. I don't know all the details about who did what exactly and if the 6 year sentence is just, but the Italians aren't that stupid to convict someone for not predicting an earthquake. The story is different then what the tabloids want us to believe.

This is a good article on the case.
http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110914/ ... 7264a.html

Quote:
The failure to remind residents of earthquake preparedness procedures in the face of such risks is one of the reasons that John Mutter, a seismologist at Columbia University's Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory, declined to sign the open letter circulated to support the Italian scientists. Mutter says that in his opinion, "these guys shouldn't go to jail, but they should be fined or censured because they should have said something other than what they said. To say 'don't worry' — that sort of thing just isn't helpful. You need to remind people of their earthquake drills: if they feel the house moving, get out of the building if you can, or get under a table or a door frame if you can't. Do all the things that we know save lives."
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:49 am   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

Sometimes the reasoning in the Hellmann report is so ridiculous it is 'almost' funny. Here he goes with his 'little common sense' on the luminol findings:

Quote:
With a little common sense it is useful, on the other hand, to remember that the girls lived together in that house, that they were all friends, and who knows how many times they went up and down barefoot in the various rooms, as often young people do, leaving their races here and there, even superimposing them by chance, possibly on bleach, but without excluding some other possibilities, such as a stain of fruit juice or of vegetable stock.

Sure, 'by chance' somebody just so happened to drop fruit juice or vegetable stock in exactly those spots where there was Meredith's and AK's DNA mixed. Or the other way around (where we don't even know if they ever walked around barefooted in Filomena's room). Right. And if he really thinks that somebody cleaned those spots with bleach (and nowhere else) then why not include the possibility that it was because blood was dropped just like in the bathroom? But now comes the 'fun' part:

Quote:
Indeed – as already recalled above – Dr. Stefanoni (pp. 221 and 228) has acknowledged that it is not possible to date the moment DNA is released, nor to establish the chronological order in which multiple traces were left, even one above the other.

In this respect, then, it must be considered that footprint 183 was observed near a shoeprint of Guede directed towards the exit, so it could have been this shoeprint that contaminated Amanda’s DNA with Meredith’s.

It could have been the bloody shoeprint that contaminated the luminol footprint! No vegetable stock but blood. He acknowledges that his whole previous story about the sensitivity of TMB means squad and there could have been blood inside the footprints after all. Thanks mr Hellmann.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:04 am   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

This section of Hellman had me sitting for an hour, trying to follow the 'logic'.

Quote:
To show that Amanda Knox, at the police station in the days following Meredith’s
murder, was absolutely not disturbed, the testimonies of some of the police officers and
some of the other girls who had also been summoned there were recalled: Amanda and
Raffaele – according to their statements – were exchanging caresses, and Amanda, while
waiting, also allowed herself to be seen doing some gymnastic moves.
[31] In reality, however – apart from the fact that the caresses, simple signs of tenderness
between two lovers, could have been a way of comforting each other, and apart from the
fact that those same gymnastic exhibitions could also have been a way of exorcising the
climate of anxiety and fear that had caught everyone up, a way to find a bit of the ordinary
normality that had been destroyed by what had happened – apart from all these
considerations, it is observed that these testimonies refer to the beginning of the time spent
at the police station and not to the late night (1:45 AM and 5:45 AM) when the so‐called
“spontaneous” declarations were rendered; which, contrary to the hypothesis of the
prosecution, tends to prove that Amanda Knox, who had no reason at the beginning to be
scared, entered into a state of stress and oppression as a consequence of the interrogation
and the way it took place.


If this isn't an example of talking out of both sides of your mouth, I don't know what is. Words fail me every time I read this.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

Hi Everyone,

Apologies for my absence. This was down to my having to send my computer away to be fixed, which hopefully it now is. Thank you everyone for keeping the community running along nicely :) Now, I'll get on with catching up on all the stuff I missed.

Michael

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THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

Kermit -

Thank you for the excellent work on keeping "Walter Mitty" Preston honest! This is all the more important considering he now, along with Spezi, has a book on the case in the works. IF that ever sees publication, I am expecting that it will carry falsehoods of a magnitude that will make those in the afterword of the MOF pale in comparison.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

The Machine -

Hi TM, if you're reading. I was wondering if you could do us a favour? Do you think you could have a word with Peter Quennell and ask him if he can figure out a way of putting permalinks on his TJMK articles? Only, as things stand, it's rather awkward to link to any of the TJMK articles without that link then becoming redundant a few days later as the article in question moves down the list and off the front page.

EDIT: Never mind, I see he has them now :)

_________________
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

I have uploaded Kermit's latest powerpoints along with the links to the articles to the board for posterity and easy reference. They can be found here: viewtopic.php?p=100364#p100364 in the KERMIT'S POWERPOINTS & PRESENTATIONS thread in the MEDIA subforum.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

The UK clocks have gone back one hour today, so I have now reset the board default time to GMT (Greenwich Mean Time). If, when logged in, the board time displays incorrectly for your time zone, you can set your time zone in the User Control Panel under 'Board Preferences'.

Thank You

Michael

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:50 pm   Post subject: RUDY GUEDE, DRUG DEALER?   

This post from brmull of .ORG deserves to be reproduced in full http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewto ... 42#p122442

Quote:
brmull:
"Back to the question of whether Rudy was a drug dealer.

Giuseppe Castellini, the editor of Giornale dell'Umbria, still believes firmly that Kokomani was telling the truth when he said Guede was one of his dealers. I'd really like to know if he has any evidence to back up that suspicion.

My take is that Guede was somewhere between a "facilitator" and a neophyte dealer.

When the police issued Guede's arrest warrant (November 18, I believe) they said he may have been involved in the drug trade. This info seems to have come from statements by his friends Viktor and Momi. Viktor said that Guede once bought cocaine on the steps of the duomo, on behalf of a group of students going to a club. Viktor said that at some point later Guede became very afraid of those dealers and he wondered if Guede he'd had some sort of a fight with them. Momi said that Guede used cocaine and became aggressive when he did so. Both said that Guede had episodes of bizarre behavior such as barking like a dog in which friends wondered if he was on drugs. He would also fall asleep at odd times. Both said that to their knowledge Guede was not a dealer.

Benedetti said that Guede spent a lot of money and had no apparent source of income. Benedetti said he gave Guede money on a regular basis. He could not rule out that Guede wall a "small-d" drug dealer, but found it hard to believe that he was a "Big-D" dealer.

Guede of course indignantly protested that he was not a dealer, and although I wouldn't bet a large amount of money on it, my instinct is that he was telling the truth.

Anyway the foreign press seems to have misinterpreted "may have been involved in the drug trade" as "drug dealer" and this became established lore even in Italy. No one has explicity attributed this claim to anyone in the police or the prosecutor's office. His friends didn't know it. Some Perugians who spoke to the media called him a drug dealer but they probably heard it from the media.

What's not in doubt is that Guede used cocaine, at least occasionally, and that he bought it for other people on at least one occasion. There's a fine line between buying for other people and being a dealer yourself, so that's how he may have come into conflict with those dealers. And I'm more convinced than ever than cocaine was what brought the three killers together that night
."


I agree. I also believe this was how Amanda came to know Rudy, by his hanging around the foreign students and acting as their drug go-between, that he hung around Piazza Grimana not only to shoot hoops but also interact with the Maghrebi and Albanian dealers that were part of the scene, and that Curatolo was a reliable witness about them hanging around the basketball court. I also think Guede was an occasional cocaine user based on his reported behaviour.

Unfortunately we will never know whether the drug that fueled their escalation of violence that night was cocaine, skunk weed, or a combination of both. The hair analysis test taken the day after their arrest has many reported problems http://svmsl.chem.cmu.edu/vmsl/cocaine/ch_bg3.htm and since cocaine has an extremely short half-life then any blood or urine test taken at that point might have been inconclusive. See http://druglibrary.org/schaffer/cocaine/clearurine.htm
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

The idea of drug dealer is used to further the distance in life styles between Guede and the lovebirds. He is a drug dealer. They are white-bread, innocent, casual smokers, or users, or whatever. You are expected to see the sinister picture of hard-core vs harmless college. The logic bhind this is faulty, IMO.

I wouldn't logically assume that a drug dealer would resort to B&E second-story windows to burglarize. One would think that there was enough profit in the illegal drug industry to circumvent the need to burgle.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:50 pm   Post subject: RE: "FALSE CONFESSIONS" EXPERT DR. SAUL KASSIN   

Since the subject of Dr. Saul Kassin's insertion into the case was first brought up on .NET in my SOMETIMES AN 'EXPERT' CAN ALSO BE AN 'IDIOT' post of July 08, 2012, we've been following his exploits on PMF and TJMK, and protesting vociferously about all the inaccuracies in his online article for the APA magazine. Finally, some corrections have been made.

The current print edition of American Psychologist has made several corrections to Dr. Kassin's online article posted here on July 21. Courtesy of brmull on .ORG:

Quote:
brmull:
In the article “Why Confessions Trump Innocence,” by Saul M. Kassin (American Psychologist , Vol. 67, No. 6, pp. 431–445, this issue; published Online First April 30, 2012), minor corrections should be made in the description of the Amanda Knox case. The author thanks those whose feedback prompted these changes: (1) On p. 431, paragraph 1, line 5, “the only one” should be deleted; (2) on p. 431, paragraph 2, lines 10–12, “She was told, falsely, that Sollecito, her boyfriend, disavowed her alibi and that physical evidence placed her at the scene” should read “She was told that Sollecito, her boyfriend, disavowed her alibi, which he later retracted, and that physical evidence placed her at the scene, which was not true”; (3) on p. 433, paragraph 2, lines 3–4, “her English roommates left Perugia;” should be deleted; (4) on p. 436, paragraph 3, lines 8–10, “Two weeks later, the rapist whose DNA was found in sperm and other biological matter at the crime scene was apprehended” should read “Two weeks later, Rudy Guede, who was convicted of murdering Meredith Kercher and whose DNA was found inside her body and throughout the crime scene, was apprehended”; (5) on p. 436, paragraph 3, line 13, “the rapist” should be replaced with “Guede”; (6) on p. 441, paragraph 3, line 13, “Knox's British roommates” should be replaced with “Kercher's friends.”


These are minor corrections, made only after intense pressure from us at PMF and TJMK, though he might revisit the corrections I underlined. Kudos to every one who took the time to write to him to correct the record, though he still has not clarified whether he had been retained by the defence, as claimed by Bruce Fischer and co. This might speak to his credibility on the issue. Reading his article, I also note his sources:

1:Additional sources to which I had access include the translated police reports of Knox’s statements; personal communications with Amanda Knox, Madison Paxton, and Nina Burleigh; and the Perugia Murder File translation of the Jury/Judge Conviction Report.

Dr. Kassin might also look at the following paragraph in his artice, and er, rewrite that too?

"Her final interrogation started on November 5 at 10 p.m. and lasted until November 6 at 6 a.m., during which time she was alone, without an attorney, tag-teamed by a dozen police, and did not break for food or sleep"

I've already asked what the literature says about the difference between false confessions and false accusations, or the incidence of white women that falsely accuse black men, but so far received no reply :)

You can follow the debate on the dedicated Saul Kassin page FALSE CONFESSIONS" EXPERT DR. SAUL KASSIN
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:06 pm   Post subject: DOUG PRESTON, MARIO SPEZI, AND THE MONSTER OF FLORENCE   

Since we've also been following the work of Doug Preston and Mario Spezi for so many years, I've also opened a new topic in The Cast of Characters here:
DOUG PRESTON, MARIO SPEZI, AND THE MONSTER OF FLORENCE as a place to post the many pieces we've written about the MOF.

"There was a series of cult like murders carried out around Florence, Italy from 1968-85, called The Monster of Florence Murders. This new listing in The Cast of Characters is to put together under one heading all the relevant material we have collected about the murders and the writers Doug Preston and Mario Spezi, whose writing has been interjected into the case of the Murder of Meredith Kercher"
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:01 pm   Post subject: BOOK AND FILM DEALS GONE AWRY   

From Wikipedia:
Quote:
The Monster of Florence, also known as Il Mostro, is an epithet commonly used for the perpetrator, or the perpetrators, of 16 murders that took place between 1968 and 1985 in the province of Florence, Italy. The same gun and pattern was used in all the murders.

Four local men, Stefano Mele, Pietro Pacciani, Mario Vanni and Giancarlo Lotti were arrested, charged and convicted of the crime at different times. However, these convictions have been criticized and ridiculed in the media; critics suggest that the real killer or killers have never been identified. Several other suspects were arrested and held in captivity at various times, but they were later released when subsequent murders using the same weapon and methods cast doubt on the guilt of the suspects held in captivity.

The English author Magdalen Nabb, wrote the 1996 novel, The Monster of Florence based on her extensive research and documents from the actual case. Although a work of fiction, Nabb states that the investigation in the novel was real and keeping it fiction was a protective measure. In their 2008 non-fiction book The Monster of Florence, Douglas Preston and Mario Spezi suggested the same perpetrator as Nabb had identified, Antonio Vinci (the nephew and son of two Sardinian brothers each suspected of being the Monster) is a likely candidate for being the real killer. Vinci denied this in a Dateline NBC interview with Stone Phillips.


While Spezi credited Magdalen Nabb for her research in the Italian edition of Il Mostro de Florence, all mention of her was excised from the American edition.

There was some interest in making a movie on the book, with Tom Cruise and then George Clooney slated to star as author Doug Preston. This movie deal has been held back for several years when the two authors were first charged with interference in the case (the charges were later withdrawn) but they then got into a feud with Perugian prosecutor Mignini. Preston claims he was afraid of being arrested if he ever returned to Italy, though he seems to have no problem when he returned for the NBC Dateline series mentioned above.

Preston carried out a high profile media campaign to impugn the character of PM Mignini, suggesting that his prosecution of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito is based on his 'obsession with satanism', flawed evidence, and that he 'persecutes journalists', ie: Spezi, who has just been convicted of slandering retired carabinieri detective Guittari who investigated the MOF murders, and Francesco Sforza, aka Frank Sfarzo, who was selling confidential files to the media.

In the meantime, the Monster of Florence movie is still 'in development' limbo, and no publisher has been found for their proposed "The Witch of Perugia" about the trial of Amanda Knox for the murder of Meredith Kercher.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:18 pm   Post subject: MARIO SPEZI   

A rare interview with the late British writer Magdalen Nabb, who wrote the 1996 book The Monster of Florence that predates Preston and Spezi. Any publishing and film deal will have to acknowledge her many contributions to the case.

http://italian-mysteries.com/nabb-interview-part08.html

"Unfortunately, I then had trouble with the journalist (Spezi) who began selling my researches anywhere he could, including to the New Yorker. When he tried to sell to the RAI (Italian State Television) they wouldn’t go ahead with their programme without seeing proof in the form of original documents. The journalist had to admit the stuff was mine and they came to me for it. I refused. It could have led to more unfounded accusations, the last thing I could allow."
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:54 pm   Post subject: Re: MARIO SPEZI   

Ergon wrote:
A rare interview with the late British writer Magdalen Nabb, who wrote the 1996 book The Monster of Florence that predates Preston and Spezi. Any publishing and film deal will have to acknowledge her many contributions to the case.

http://italian-mysteries.com/nabb-interview-part08.html

"Unfortunately, I then had trouble with the journalist (Spezi) who began selling my researches anywhere he could, including to the New Yorker. When he tried to sell to the RAI (Italian State Television) they wouldn’t go ahead with their programme without seeing proof in the form of original documents. The journalist had to admit the stuff was mine and they came to me for it. I refused. It could have led to more unfounded accusations, the last thing I could allow."


What an interesting read, Ergon. And the absolute ring of truth.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

Stay safe, all in the path of this horrific storm.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

Napia5 wrote:
Stay safe, all in the path of this horrific storm.


x2
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Offline Emerald


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:46 am   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

Interesting Raf took so long to study the footprint on the rug. Why not just be able to toss it aside because he was never there barefooted? Obviously, there was a reason Raf thought it was possible.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:27 pm   Post subject: ADMINISTRATOR NOTE!   

Administrator Note:

Hi Everyone. As all of you who have followed PMF for any period of time will be aware, PMF is not only a community devoted to 'discussing' the case. PMF has a time honoured tradition of creating and providing case related content with the aim of presenting the case facts to the public, be that in the form of powerpoints, videos, original case documents and photographs, translations, etc, etc. In line with that tradition, PMF will be launching a new major project over the next fortnight, the groundwork for which has already been laid. It will be a long-term ongoing project, continuing for the full duration of the case. The project's aims will be to provide for posterity, a full landscape of the case! It will be purely raw fact based (as opposed to interpretive or opinion based) and so will be of value not only to those fighting for justice for Meredith Kercher and the neutrals, but also those from the opposing camp. The idea is to create a primary reference source that will be a must-have for anyone with any level of interest in the case and it will be on the same level of import to the case as previous major projects, such as the Massei Report translation. The good thing about this project is that it will be immediate, there will be no delay before the membership and public will be able to view the results. As soon as it starts, the public will be able to view its progress and reap the benefits of it as an information resource in real time as it develops.

As with all PMF community projects, it will require volunteers. So, if you feel you might like to be involved in a major project for Meredith, please start thinking about that now. The actual work that will be required will be simple and easy and in terms of degree, there is no set amount or deadlines required of any contributor, one puts the amount of time into it they like, when they like, for as long as they like. Neither does it require expertise or any skill set above basic level. Provided one is able to copy and paste simple text, links and upload photos and files and perform basic research (or are willing to learn those basic skills), that's all that's required. The project will be co-ordinated by Nell and myself and once we're all set and ready to get going we will make an announcement in this thread calling for volunteers, which will be some time over the next two weeks, so watch this space! :)

Thank You,

Michael

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Offline dgfred


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

Michael wrote:
Hi Everyone,

Apologies for my absence. This was down to my having to send my computer away to be fixed, which hopefully it now is. Thank you everyone for keeping the community running along nicely :) Now, I'll get on with catching up on all the stuff I missed.

Michael


Yay! Welcome back Michael. Take your shoes off and sit awhile. beer-)
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

dgfred wrote:
Michael wrote:
Hi Everyone,

Apologies for my absence. This was down to my having to send my computer away to be fixed, which hopefully it now is. Thank you everyone for keeping the community running along nicely :) Now, I'll get on with catching up on all the stuff I missed.

Michael


Yay! Welcome back Michael. Take your shoes off and sit awhile. beer-)


Thanks, dgfred. It's nice to be back and to see you guys again :)

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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

Hi everybody, I haven't seen this (defense team) presentation before, have you? I may have missed it. It's one of those rare cases where I would concede that IIP is useful for something.

Defense presentation detailing arrival of police at via della Pergola using garage camera, Nov 2, 2007. I'm attaching a PDF below:

Attachment:
Police Arrival Nov 2 2007.pdf


According to the defense, timestamp is 10 minutes slow, so Postal Police arrival time is 12:58.

You can also view this presentation here: http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/postale.pdf

There is a PowerPoint showing Meredith arriving home at 9:01 pm on the night of Nov 1 (if one takes into account that the clock on the garage camera was 10 minutes behind; this according to the defense but is it certain?)

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/meredith_arriving_home.ppt


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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

guermantes wrote:
Hi everybody, I haven't seen this (defense team) presentation before, have you? I may have missed it. It's one of those rare cases where I would concede that IIP is useful for something.

Defense presentation detailing arrival of police at via della Pergola using garage camera, Nov 2, 2007. I'm attaching a PDF below:

Attachment:
Police Arrival Nov 2 2007.pdf


According to the defense, timestamp is 10 minutes slow, so Postal Police arrival time is 12:58.

You can also view this presentation here: .

There is a PowerPoint showing Meredith arriving home at 9:01 pm on the night of Nov 1 (if one takes into account that the clock on the garage camera was 10 minutes behind; this according to the defense but is it certain?)

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/meredith_arriving_home.ppt



Yeah, I think, if you remember, that's the PDF I had a big fight with Thoughtful over, many moons ago.

The 'Meredith arriving home' PP is BS. Meredith wasn't wearing a white skirt (or any skirt). The individual in the video is certainly not wearing jeans as Meredith was wearing. The skirt is more like that Amanda was seen wearing the day after the murder.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

zorba wrote:
Grosso ought to be a nurse not a lawyer


I just realized that Maria Del Grosso is the only lawyer whose closing arguments aren't included in the summary, so we don't know exactly what she said at the end of the appeal trial. I found this old article that provides a brief summary of her defense speech (I know it's not much, but better than nothing):

Quote:
But Knox's attorney, Maria Del Grosso, said her client is the victim of bad casting in a script in which prosecutors have decided she is guilty, "regardless of the logic and reason."

For the convictions to stand, Del Grosso argued, prosecutors need, "proofs, proofs, proofs, and in this case there is only the proof that they are strangers to this crime."

Del Grosso said there was no evidence of a cover-up attempt, as prosecutors claim, and accused prosecutors of using a double standard when it comes to evidence in the case.


Donatella Donati:

Quote:
Sollecito's lawyer, Donatella Donati, told the court that her team suffered repeated roadblocks each time they asked for further reviews of the evidence and said it was clear that some of the evidence had been contaminated.


Lawyers argue evidence in Knox murder trial
30 Sep 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

Napia5 wrote:
Stay safe, all in the path of this horrific storm.


OT: Hurricane Sandy updates

ABC News Live Streaming Coverage

Hurricane Sandy speeds towards landfall

Quote:
The full moon will make storm surges worse, as high tides along the Eastern Seaboard will rise about 20 percent higher than normal.

Get your Wellingtons and waterproofs out at the ready or better still stay home and wait out the storm. mop-)
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

Michael wrote:
guermantes wrote:
Hi everybody, I haven't seen this (defense team) presentation before, have you? I may have missed it. It's one of those rare cases where I would concede that IIP is useful for something.

Defense presentation detailing arrival of police at via della Pergola using garage camera, Nov 2, 2007. I'm attaching a PDF below:

According to the defense, timestamp is 10 minutes slow, so Postal Police arrival time is 12:58.

You can also view this presentation here:

There is a PowerPoint showing Meredith arriving home at 9:01 pm on the night of Nov 1 (if one takes into account that the clock on the garage camera was 10 minutes behind; this according to the defense but is it certain?)

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/meredith_arriving_home.ppt

Yeah, I think, if you remember, that's the PDF I had a big fight with Thoughtful over, many moons ago.

The 'Meredith arriving home' PP is BS. Meredith wasn't wearing a white skirt (or any skirt). The individual in the video is certainly not wearing jeans as Meredith was wearing. The skirt is more like that Amanda was seen wearing the day after the murder.

They really should have done a reconstruction of that video. Not only are the clothes clearly white but also Meredith supposedly came down from the car park which is right across the street from the gate entrance to the cottage. The person in white on the CCTV walks straight ahead on the other side of the street taking at least 4 or 5 steps which would be unlikely if she had just crossed the street. See for example the video SA made or the police officer crossing the street the next morning.

You cross the street and end up right at the gate. Especially on a quiet evening there is no reason to take a detour. AK confessed that she came down from the basketball court which is further up the road so she would have ended up walking a bit on that side. However that confession could not be used against her as evidence so maybe that is why the police didn't bother to study the images.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

Yeah, it's either Amanda Knox or some other individual completely unrelated to the case (except perhaps as a potential witness), it certainly isn't Meredith.

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:29 am   Post subject: Catastrophe   

Parts of Manhattan now under water and still rising. Fires in the subway and 5 people dead. Prayers for every one in the storm's path.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:26 am   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

Stephanie Kercher to be honoured at Women of the Year event in London tonight http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-20135261
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:29 am   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

It was a major disaster all across the eastern seaboard last night. Sixteen dead, 6.8 million people without power. Best wishes and prayers to our readers there, and hope they came out all right.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:55 am   Post subject: HONOR? BOUND REVIEW   

Still reading Raffaele Sollecito's book borrowed from the library. Hard slogging. Seriously, the cover? The hard lighting and stark background makes a statement I am sure, but if you want to portray someone sympathetically, don't make them look like this:


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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:59 am   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

guermantes wrote:
zorba wrote:
Grosso ought to be a nurse not a lawyer


I just realized that Maria Del Grosso is the only lawyer whose closing arguments aren't included in the summary, so we don't know exactly what she said at the end of the appeal trial. I found this old article that provides a brief summary of her defense speech (I know it's not much, but better than nothing):

Quote:
But Knox's attorney, Maria Del Grosso, said her client is the victim of bad casting in a script in which prosecutors have decided she is guilty, "regardless of the logic and reason."

For the convictions to stand, Del Grosso argued, prosecutors need, "proofs, proofs, proofs, and in this case there is only the proof that they are strangers to this crime."

Del Grosso said there was no evidence of a cover-up attempt, as prosecutors claim, and accused prosecutors of using a double standard when it comes to evidence in the case.


Donatella Donati:

Quote:
Sollecito's lawyer, Donatella Donati, told the court that her team suffered repeated roadblocks each time they asked for further reviews of the evidence and said it was clear that some of the evidence had been contaminated.


Lawyers argue evidence in Knox murder trial
30 Sep 2011



I found the role she played in court so weird, she didn't act like a lawyer and in a way, as I said, it's sexual discrimination, because she would hardly do that with a male. That is why these things cannot be done in such serious settings and under such terrible circumstances but these people did them.


I get the feeling she was hired in not to play lawyer but to play auntie to Knox, I just do not believe those lawyers really believed in the innocence, there are breed apart, however, it is not every lawyer that always stays, at times, when they know, they quit saying something or other, as an excuse, simply put; they cannot bear to be supporting someone they know is guilty, I'm sure Bongiorno knew, just like Napoleoni knew, and so many others did too there in Perugia.

The thing about Meredith's sister, is so nice.

Stay safe you or those in that awful storm.


Exasperated up all night, till 12 midday working, why do I end up doing nuts stress work?


Ciao tutti

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Last edited by zorba on Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

How's the book you're working on coming along, zorba? All the best. I think we do the work we love. (Even if it stresses us out sometimes)
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:09 pm   Post subject: Re: HONOR? BOUND REVIEW   

Ergon wrote:
Still reading Raffaele Sollecito's book borrowed from the library. Hard slogging. Seriously, the cover? The hard lighting and stark background makes a statement I am sure, but if you want to portray someone sympathetically, don't make them look like this:



I couldn't, I feel like it's like inviting the evil eye into the home at a wedding or birth

Sollecito will end up on heroin and OD.

If not he is heading for problems one way or the other, how can you avoid it if you have to hide so much?
Impossible,
He is going to get into more trouble.
In their cases, I love being the guy sandwich boarding up and down the street, predicting doom ever so caringly so, for S & K.

Let's be real, who in their right mind, in Italy, is going to employ that cat, when they know his personal details, oh lovely, Sally, you've invited who to dinner?

Do you know who he is, do you truth him. (see this was a typo but I'll leave it as it's right, but I meant to say: trust him


I mean how is Knox too, gonna keep those images out of her head, why of course she too is bound to be on something, to block it out, then again, her eyes look so iron-like, she had it all going on, madly, a long time before she left America and may be made of stone, her heart is anyhow.

Okay, anyhow now I'm hullucinating in colour from lack of sleep, eat, god I worked hard.
Yesterday morning 9am right through to 12 today.

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Last edited by zorba on Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:14 pm   Post subject: HB REVIEW   

The Back Cover:


Reviews from a plagiarizing felon, and an ex-FBI Agent who says "In the FBI, we had a dark joke we could convict anyone (even the innocent)" which I'm sure the Bureau, which does indeed know all about 'convicting the innocent', may want to have a conversation with their ex-agent about.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:15 pm   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

Ergon wrote:
How's the book you're working on coming along, zorba? All the best. I think we do the work we love. (Even if it stresses us out sometimes)


Not done a thing for it yet, lately though, some serious bizz to sort out so then absoluto nothing, basically need a nice wife with a stick.

I need to do it though.
stuff I have to say relates to life exerience but then to Gnosticism and Eastern things like reincarnation and the things I know are the ones that are important, without any fakery or ego, not that I follow any one thing, at all, but I recognise bits that I found out from real life, darn the keys have turned phychedelic, looks like Rubber soul and Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds, I can barely type.

Very hard though when the word spinds now full of redundant folk, totally self-absorbed and shallow an this I see as the downside of the changes to the means of communication, however, there are still some who have subsstance.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:15 pm   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

Was about to take 51 winks, when yet another thing came in to look at, I'm looking with one eye as one is up the spout, need to visit the eye doctor as they'd say in India.

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

zorba wrote:
Ergon wrote:
How's the book you're working on coming along, zorba? All the best. I think we do the work we love. (Even if it stresses us out sometimes)


Not done a thing for it yet, lately though, some serious bizz to sort out so then absoluto nothing, basically need a nice wife with a stick.

I need to do it though.
stuff I have to say relates to life exerience but then to Gnosticism and Eastern things like reincarnation and the things I know are the ones that are important, without any fakery or ego, not that I follow any one thing, at all, but I recognise bits that I found out from real life, darn the keys have turned phychedelic, looks like Rubber soul and Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds, I can barely type.

Very hard though when the word spinds now full of redundant folk, totally self-absorbed and shallow an this I see as the downside of the changes to the means of communication, however, there are still some who have subsstance.


Yes, a nice wife is always helpful, zorba :)

One thing I want to add is that every one with a voice needs to put it out there. We are the 1% that have something to say, and the other 99% are er, self-absorbed. Which makes what we do all the more valuable, and urgently needed now. So yes, I'll (gently) crack that whip for you, but also, remind every one to take time off to enjoy the snooze, coffee, tea, or roses. Don't burn out.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:51 pm   Post subject: NOTE TO KERMIT   

Bruce Fischer of the Injustice-Anywhere board seems to think we're monitoring his moribund "Today Over At PMF" pages 24/7 and so all he needs do is post ANYTHING and we'll respond, even to gerbil like chirping about "look at the (crap) crime scene videos" .Yeah, right. We did several years ago and all saw were incomplete and false presentations like 'there's Meredith" and "there's Rudy" (short, stocky white dude) but never mind. This latest might interest you:

Quote:
Bruce Fischer Post subject: Re: Today over at PMF Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:09 pm
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.org is trying to organize another campaign against Douglas Preston. Kermit's latest rants on TJMK are an attempt to get out ahead of the Doug's future plans. I wonder who the public will believe, a credible author with a long track record of honesty and integrity or a couple of anonymous people on a hate site calling themselves Kermit and The Machine.

They are discussing ways to derail the Monster of Florence movie by contacting George Clooney. I am confident Douglas Preston will prevail. He has my full support and I encourage everyone here to support him as well.


Plus more attaboys from the water carriers about how PowerPoint presentations never convince anybody. Fine.

Too bad for 'the Doug' (sic), but he hitched his star, and reputation, to Amanda Knox, and like any sensible Hollywood type, George Clooney will wait to see if Knox is acquitted by the Supreme Court. Too bad for Preston, also, that there are higher standards of proof required for what is billed as 'based on a true story'.

Anything that is incorrect as to the facts, based on other people's source material, or coming from Spezi and Preston might well be looked at with a jaundiced eye by those who might not want to throw good money at what might end up facing 'a PR campaign' against it. And contrast the bombast thrown so far by the afore mentioned Bruce Fischer and Doug Preston, all we need to do is present the facts, and not, attack the messenger.
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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

Ergon wrote:
Stephanie Kercher to be honoured at Women of the Year event in London tonight http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-20135261


Here's another article on that with some news pics of Stephanie.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/artic ... -2012.html

And best wishes to all those on the East Coast...
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

Stepanie Kercher on 'Lorraine'

Five Years since Meredith Kercher was murdered in Italy we are joined by her sister Stephanie who has been awarded The Cosmopolitan Editors Choice Award.

Stephanie was given the award for the great resilience and strength through what must have been a horrific time for her and her family, and she is here today to tell us more about what she went through.

Video (for UK viewers): http://www.itv.com/lorraine/hottopics/cosmo-award-winner/
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

Sorry, I don't know what I did with one of my posts so again: reading about Stephanie made my day, and week and month and year, congratulations to a dear person, if anyone more than deserves that, she certainly is the one.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

Thank you Guermantes.

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

guermantes wrote:
Stepanie Kercher on 'Lorraine'

Five Years since Meredith Kercher was murdered in Italy we are joined by her sister Stephanie who has been awarded The Cosmopolitan Editors Choice Award.

Stephanie was given the award for the great resilience and strength through what must have been a horrific time for her and her family, and she is here today to tell us more about what she went through.

Video (for UK viewers): http://www.itv.com/lorraine/hottopics/cosmo-award-winner/


Clander on .ORG has downloaded it for everyone else. With thanks, http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewto ... 38#p122538

It is hard, but also very inspiring, to watch. And yes, she says they are still seeking justice for Meredith, and mentions the appeal in March, yay. The awards are to be shown on the same show tomorrow night, in case any UK members want to download and convert it? Slow slogging for comments on the Daily Mail article to show up, btw.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:22 am   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

31 October 2012
Stephanie Kercher dedicates award to her murdered sister
By Katie Begley

Stephanie paid tribute to the student as she picked up a gong at the Cosmopolitan Ultimate Women of the Year Awards.

The 29-year-old said: “It’s an honour to be nominated for this award and I dedicate it to Mez, I’m doing it for her.

“We still miss Mez terribly. We just have to keep going and be positive."

“We’re still very close as a family. We’re lucky we’ve got a lot of Mez’s friends who are still in contact. So it’s being able to keep Mez’s memory alive and remember all the happy times.”


THE DAILY STAR
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:42 am   Post subject: Re: XXV. MAIN DISCUSSION, MAY 28 -   

I've uploaded the video to PMF to the 'Media' subforum. It can be viewed or/and downloaded from there, or viewed in the player below:


STEPHANIE KERCHER - COSMO AWARD WINNER


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"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:55 am   Post subject: THREAD LOCKED   

picture of a pumpkin
This topic has been locked by a Moderator
Reason: I am now locking this thread. Please continue the discussion in the brand new Main Discussion thread: XXVI. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 31 -.

Thank You,

Michael
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