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A Psycho-Astrological Perspective

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:09 am   Post subject: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

Hi, everyone,

I wrote this article for my blog in October of last year, after the acquittals. While writing about the relationship of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, I looked at her Knox's relationship with Meredith Kercher, and what I saw gave me even more insights, which I'd like to share with you.

A Psycho-Astrological Perspective on the Relationship of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito

http://manfromatlan.blogspot.com/2011/1 ... ve-on.html

"I'm grateful to the person who asked this question a while ago: "I'd love to have a psychologist give an opinion of this Amanda/Raffaele relationship. They don't know each other. Media is making it out to be some great story of lovers torn apart. They had sex for a few days" (Referring to media speculation that the two would meet in Seattle over Christmas, much seen as an attempt to rehabilitate their image)

My reply:"Sigh, here I go, being dragged back into this case again. Thanks! Coming up, "A Psycho-Astrological Perspective on the Relationship of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito" But to let you know, it never was a soul mate relationship, more of a karmic one, clearly leading to imprisonment and legal difficulties. They'd do best to stay two oceans away from now on"

Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito have been found innocent in the first of two appeals trials that will determine whether they are truly guilty or innocent of the crime of the murder of British student Meredith Kercher in Perugia, Italy.

While we wait for the outcome of this process I would like to say that indeed, Astrology can answer such questions about the nature and outcome of a relationship. Whether Psychology can ever get back to its astrological roots is another debate, for another time, of course :)

Astrology, like Psychology, is the study of humanity in the context of time, location, space and waves, or, cycles, of energy. It can draw maps of the relationships of each with the other..

You can have one horoscope for the place where you were born, another for the place you go to, and an innumerable number for all the relationships you have, with people, places, and nations.

And then there are more, pertaining to time and the cycles of energy, which like the tides, ebb and flow.

I have already written about the astrological background, with spiritual insight of course, of the night of the murder in my article "What Might Have Been" http://manfromatlan.blogspot.com/2011/0 ... -been.html

Further background insights may be obtained from "The Criminal Mind" http://manfromatlan.blogspot.com/2011/0 ... -mind.html and there are two amazing books I recommend as well, "An Astrology Guide to your Sex Life" by Vivian E. Robson, and "Signs of Mental Illness" by Mitchell E. Gibson, M.D. Dr. Gibson was the chief resident in Psychiatry in a Philadelphia medical center and now has a successful private practice in Arizona. He is also an astrologer, with a new technique that identifies the planetary markers of mental illness; and Vivian E. Robson, has written a classic, almost out of print primer on sexual and marital compatibility (and dysfunction)

Their books have informed my own opinion, but the following interpretations are broadly speaking, my own, even if they are solidly grounded in accepted astrological teaching.

I am also grateful to the good people of http://www.astro.com/ for the use of their software to draw up the composite charts shown here. Please support them by ordering their horoscopes, which make great gifts!

There is an astrological technique called synastry where the charts of two individuals are blended into one. The composite chart of Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox show fascinating insights into the nature of their relationship, and, eventual outcome...

Moon Conjunct Neptune: With the conjunction of Moon and Neptune, both individuals should be very careful to understand the true nature of their relationship. They can see themselves as soul mates, but there is a great deal of self deception involved..

Venus in the Second House: Indicates being in love with the idea of love. This being the house of emotional resources, they will always have what they need, and may even be financially successful together.

Jupiter Trine Pluto: Luck, and fate, combine here. How that works out depends on the choices made, but Jupiter in the 12th house of restriction and imprisonment and Pluto the planet of inexorable fate in the 8th house of death shows the pitfalls ahead in this relationship..

Venus Opposition Pluto: This is a warning of danger. The relationship brings up deeply buried emotions that can be overwhelming.. It can either help you to grow, or cause self-destruction.

Sun Conjunct Mercury: You have the ability to understand each other's thinking. You meet through travel. You are alike on a mental level.

Sun Opposition Saturn:
The development of the self (Sun) is constantly thwarted by the fated or karmic circumstances of Saturn. This relationship cannot last.

Saturn in the Ninth House: The karma (Saturn) of the relationship is expressed through the 9th house. The ninth house rules higher learning, the legal system, and publishing.

Jupiter Conjunct Ascendant: The relationship will always have an element of 'luck' and 'friends in high places' that can help in the worst crisis. The relationship can create feelings of exuberance and optimism as long as the chart does not show other stressors.

Jupiter in the Twelfth House: This is the house of imprisonment and restriction. Combined with other indicators, shows a time spent in prison.

Uranus in the Tenth House: Uranus (upheaval and change) in the house of how the outer world sees you indicates you can seem er, 'different'. You try to challenge people's perceptions, but it is your choice whether to bring change in a positive or negative manner. Destructive activities can lead to a fall from grace.

Uranus Square Ascendant: This amplifies the destructiveness mentioned earlier. You can goad each other, and feelings of rebelliousness will be exaggerated in this unstable relationship. This is why I strongly feel the relationship cannot last.

Moon Square Mars: This is a difficult aspect for a relationship. The emotional energies show conflict through bad associations.

Mars in the Seventh House: You have the choice of channelling your energies together for a common purpose, or you can end up being each other's greatest enemy. The seventh is the house of partners and enemies.

Mars Square Neptune: This negative aspect can indicate ego and controlling games with each other. There can be confusion, deceit, and delusion in the relationship, which is often accompanied by drugs. The two can often act against each other's interests.

Jupiter Square Saturn: You have to find a balance between optimism on the one hand, and feelings of restriction. Extremes of mood and behavior can lead to difficulty.

Ascendant in Pisces: You can project an outward, dreamlike quality, and others can perceive yours as an ideal relationship. However, there may be self-destructive elements of your relationship. As long as you find a common idealism, it should work well. Drugs and alcohol on the other hand weakens the relationship. Friends and family find it hard to understand you; there are many levels of deception.

Neptune in the Tenth House: A lack of clarity is what you project to the outside world. People find it hard to understand what makes you tick. Or you can develop your creative, spiritual side to counteract that. (Note: I have this aspect in my own chart :)

Pluto in Scorpio in the Eighth House: Pluto (and Scorpio) rules death and transformation. So does the eighth house. It makes the relationship deep and intense, but can also bring out psychological conflict. There is a deep sexual connection that if utilised properly can lead to spiritual oneness. Or, it can lead to death and destruction. (Funny, but I have this aspect too :) and the spirit's journey after we pass on and the sacred aspects of sexuality is part of my teaching)

Venus Opposition Pluto: This can bring up deep powerful emotions in your relationship, so you have to be careful, otherwise you will not be able to deal with the consequences. (I have this aspect too, and yes I have powerful emotions, but direct it towards healing)

To summarise then:
The relationship chart of Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox shows that in spite of the fact they only knew each other a week, they did have a relationship based on their inner psychological needs. This sort of 'fatedness' but also imbalance, can project outwards and explain why so many people are attracted to and support them, and others, not. And so we project back on to them what is inside ourselves, good or bad, and it is important we step back and examine our own attraction to this case.

And here, so clearly in the chart, we see, motivation, outcome, political interference, and reaction.

The next technique I use is called Astro-Cartography. Moving away from our place of birth shifts the placement of the planets of our chart to different angles that bring out deep rooted conflicts or, where we can be more in harmony with ourselves and others.

Knox in Perugia: Chiron/MC Line: This line runs through Germany as well, where Knox had a job through her aunt which she lost. This affected her perception of herself and goals for her trip. The crisis of confidence that arose from her loss of professional and social standing affected her deeply. Here, one becomes aware of the influence of parents on one's growth, but also brings up feelings of rebelliousness.

Sollecito in Perugia: Crossing Sun/Uranus: This line shows how the quest for personal freedom and independence from a restrictive situation can make one seem even more eccentric and unpredictable. You seek new challenges and experiences. The unusual and the unexpected can happen along this line..

Knox in Seattle: Pluto/DC Line: Not a good place for Knox. Here there are secret power plays and conflicts, and uncontrolled behaviour. Life can run roughly, and one seeks to escape through extremes of behaviour, and then actually, seek to leave this place.. Unfortunately, one takes conflicts along where ever one goes..

Sollecito in Seattle: Crossing Venus/Jupiter: Funny, but he'd actually do very well if he moved to Seattle: Here, he'd find luck, prosperity and happiness; but not, it would seem, with Knox. Fame and notoriety may help, but it also would be an escape from the pressures of home..

But what about Meredith?

I thought this would be it for my article but found myself coming back to the victim, Meredith Kercher. What was it in Knox and Kercher that brought them together? They clearly had a deeper connection, to my mind, than Knox/Sollecito.

This is where the rationalists and I part ways. To them, it must have been a random coincidence, just bad luck, that brought them together that fateful night in Perugia. To me, there was a clear attraction that came from what is often referred to as a karmic relationship. And the map of that lies in their relationship chart, seen above.

I am drawn to the six planets all narrowly concentrated in the 6th house of service and health. Also, the house of mental and physical conflicts arising from the externalization of the ego http://www.astrologyweekly.com/dictiona ... -house.php It is clear from accounts that Knox and Kercher had many conflicts in the short time they were together. Published reports only show the petty irritations that might arise from two young women of different background and temperament having to live together. The relationship chart, however shows what in hindsight was clearly a deadly combination.

Note: blue lines show areas of compatibility; red lines, stresses and conflict. The eye is drawn immediately to a red triangle in the upper part of the chart (a conflict that is in the public eye) and connecting the 6th house of inner conflict with 8th house Uranus (jealousy, sudden death) and 12th house Jupiter (imprisonment, release)

Here are some interpretations of their chart:

Knox/Kercher:

Jupiter Square Uranus 8th/12th: It means you must give each other lots of room, and not try to restrict or change the other.

Mars Square Uranus 6th/8th: Personal expectations of each other cannot be met, a great deal of reaction to each other. Can escalate into violence leading to injury or death.

Mercury Square Uranus 6th /8th: Automatic disagreement with the other; psychologically conditioned reactions. This relationship would have broken up very quickly, and one or the other would have moved out. Sadly, this did not happen.

Venus in the Sixth House: The relationship is on the surface, a utilitarian one (a shared apartment) but has underlying nervous reactions that can lower self-esteem.

Venus Square Neptune 6th/9th: Here, I see that Knox was attracted to Kercher, and I do not mean in a sexual way. The 6th house is the house of healing. Knox had deep mental and psychological issues that had never been addressed. Kercher was a bright, focused high achieving student with passion and drive. There was something special about her that attracted everyone. It is my opinion that Knox wanted very much to not only be Meredith's friend, but also, to control her. (There are domination issues in Knox's chart) There can also be an idealized fixation, and from all accounts of their respective personalities, it appears the attraction was on Knox's part. Kercher would have found her the very opposite of her driven to achieve Capricorn character. This aspect leads to great disappointment in the relationship, and yes, I consider jealousy and feelings of rejection to be one of the motives.

Mars Square Saturn 6th/9th: This provokes negative feelings that simmer below the surface.

Uranus in the Eighth House: Sudden and unpredictable reactions

Mercury Conjunct Mars 6th: Speech patterns that can aggravate the other. Constant irritations can lead to physical confrontations.

One of the problems faced by the prosecution and defense has been in trying to determine or eliminate the motivation for this crime. The actual mechanics and physical evidence have been argued and disputed for a long time now but motive, on the other hand, with various scenarios being presented, are all conjectural. We may never know for sure.

But a study of the psychology of the individual, as seen through astrology, can be quite insightful.

Here: The placement of the Moon in the chart explains hidden feeling and emotion so very clearly.

Moon in the Sixth House: This indicates a coming together for the specific purpose of healing. However, this cannot work as there are too many imbalances in the chart, which prevent understanding.

Moon Conjunct Venus: They could have had a great friendship, but they were too opposite, and the squares to Uranus and Neptune indicate that repulsion set in very quickly.

Sun Conjunct Moon: This indicates a great attraction, even if there are too many difficulties indicated elsewhere.

Moon Square Neptune: This relationship has aspects of delusional thinking. It appears that one or the other can project all sorts of longing on to the other, but, when that turns out to have been misjudged, lead to great disappointment. Alcohol and drugs can exacerbate the situation.

Summary: The Moon represents the relationship with the mother. Amanda Knox's father left the family when she was a toddler, and her mother remarried with a much younger man. Meredith Kercher, on the other hand, had a strong, loving relationship with her mother. It appears that Meredith reflected back Amanda's issues with her own mother, whose high expectations (she's a teacher) and Amanda's self destructive patterns and rebelliousness led to a violent outcome.

That the Moon falls in the 6th house indicates to me that her actions can lead to Amanda Knox's eventual healing. It is very clear she had mental issues before she left for Italy, and they are much worse now. I told some people that she would be in a prison of one kind or the other until she was 41 years of age. Karma is a healer; more so than any physical prison.

And in the end, we will always remember Meredith Kercher. I prefer to see her, not as a victim, but the luminous figure (it really was her) who appeared in Kristian Leontiou's haunting music video, "Some Say" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-q15O-rRdQM "

RIP Meredith Kercher
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:26 am   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

25 comments:

DarkEyedIrish said...
"his relationship has aspects of delusional thinking. It appears that one or the other can project all sorts of longing on to the other, but, when that turns out to have been misjudged, lead to great disappointment"
Pretty much sums up the author and his outrageously insulting quackery.
October 24, 2011 6:38 AM

Man From Atlan said...
Some people go through life waiting to be "outrageously insulted" but aren't able to read. The sign says "keep it polite, thanks"

I don't mind people with honest disagreement, but since you seem incapable of debate, goodbye.
October 24, 2011 7:39 AM

RoseMontague said...
Thanks for an interesting read. My personal opinion is that Karma is a teacher more than a healer, once we learn then we can begin to heal.
I wonder how your analysis would fit together if you approached the case from the standpoint of innocence?
October 24, 2011 9:41 AM

Man From Atlan said...
Thanks for your comment, RoseMontague. I agree that Karma is more of a teacher, at first.

That it ultimately leads to healing, I also believe (even if that takes several lifetimes:)
You raise an interesting point about approaching the case from the standpoint of innocence, but sorry, the astrological indicators I listed here and in "What Might Have Been" all point to guilt. The interpretations I gave are supported by many standard texts.
You might be interested to know that when I wrote "I predict bombshells in court" there were several astrological indicators of this verdict at the Appeals level.
I will publish more if and when this case goes to the Supreme Court.
October 24, 2011 10:25 AM

SM Kovalinsky said...
Interesting post. Do you have a link to your predictions of acquittals?
October 24, 2011 5:11 PM

DarkEyedIrish said...
"It is very clear she had mental issues before she left for Italy, and they are much worse now"
You have no evidence of Amanda Knox's mental condition, either before or after her wrongful incarceration, except your "astrological interpretation"

Apart from the sheer audacity of your claims, what you stated above strikes me as malicious libel.
October 24, 2011 6:15 PM

Man From Atlan said...
Specifically, in several private messages to regulars at PMF.ORG. They can release that information if they wish. Also, generally speaking, in the regular discussion pages at PMF.
And as I said, I will write more if and when the case goes to the Supreme Court.
October 24, 2011 6:37 PM

Man From Atlan said...
And btw, SM Kovalinsky, you might think I was "angry" at DarkEyedIrish, but you're welcome to your opinion :)
October 24, 2011 6:41 PM

SM Kovalinsky said...
I know I am welcome to my opinion, but thanks for reminding me. I think saying "good bye" was an indication of quite natural "anger" - or perhaps 'irritation' is a more apt word - at perceived rudeness.
October 24, 2011 6:49 PM

Man From Atlan said...
@DarkEyedIrish, I'm not too sure what jurisdiction you reside in, but here, it's called an opinion piece.
You might want to go after Time magazine; they also speculated she had neurological issues.

It appears you know nothing about Astrology, but feel drawn to comment on it anyway. Hardly the conditions for rational debate, imo.
October 24, 2011 6:54 PM

SM Kovalinsky said...
To be truthful, I am one of those people who wants to be only rational, but is drawn to this type of analysis. So I cannot fully call it "quackery" - although logic says it must be so. I suppose Jung was both rational and drawn to things such as psycho-astrology. In your opinion, what were the "indicators" of the acquittals, and moreover, why were acquittals fated? thanks smk
October 24, 2011 6:54 PM

ftmdave said...
Will you bring this evidence to the attention of the Mignini appeal case to the Italian Supreme Court?

At the moment Knox & Sollecito have been found innocent (i.e. the court used the term innocent, rather than not proven/insufficient evidence). This was because all over the murder scene was the DNA of the vile rapist & murderer Guede, who took Kercher's life. There was no DNA of Knox or Sollecito. But ...
... your superb analysis could well tip the balance. Please get it to the Italian Supreme Court ASAP!
October 24, 2011 8:12 PM

Man From Atlan said...
Hi, SMK.
I started to develop very strong feelings about the acquittal in June 2011. So when I checked that against the astrological chart I saw a Grand Cross pattern with Sun and Venus at stressful 90 degree angles to Saturn, Uranus and Pluto, it all pointed to sudden, unexpected events. Since they impacted AK's chart so strongly I felt she would be acquitted.
The Sept 27 New Moon prior to the decision was favorable to her chart, and the fact it was due on Oct. 3, the day OJ Simpson was acquitted, convinced me. (He shares the same birthday as AK, July 9)
Jupiter in the 12th points to powerful allies, and that she was fated to be released.
We know that human beings have strong connections to the unknown. IMO astrology just barely touches the surface in trying to understand it.
But Jung certainly used Astrology to form the basis of his Psychological theory
October 24, 2011 8:32 PM

SM Kovalinsky said...
Thanks. It is certainly an interesting perspective.

Yes, CG Jung was drawn to the psychological aspects of depth astrology, and of the I Ching and Tarot as well, because he saw the archetypes as acting within them. Quantum physics gives this a scientific respectability.
I believe Hellman ruled as he should have, yet there is something in me which sees Knox and Sollecito as archetypal characters, and thus, having the full range of possibilities in them. Cheers.
October 24, 2011 9:05 PM

Man From Atlan said...
Thanks, SMK. Knox, Sollecito, Guede and Kercher might well be working within those archetypes, which is why this case fascinates me.
I also think the day Quantum Physics discovers its connection with the Occult will be a very good day for humanity.
October 24, 2011 9:29 PM

Man From Atlan said...
ftmdave needs to discover the difference between sarcasm and debate, but never mind.
The Supreme Court is the final arbiter of innocence or guilt under Italian Law, so any crowing might be a bit er, early..
I know if the pair are found innocent I will have no problem accepting that verdict, even if I disagree. I suspect ftmdave's reaction if this were reversed might not be so sanguine, and I don't even know his astrological sign ;)
October 24, 2011 9:39 PM

SM Kovalinsky said...
I was telling someone on Websleuths forum that the night the verdict was read, I went to sleep quite tranquil about the acquittals, which I had hoped for and expected. And as I drifted off to sleep, I suddenly had what British binary mind theorist Anthony Peake calls a "hypnogogic vision" - this is when from stress or exhaustion, one is falling asleep rapidly, and the right brain suddenly sets forth a thought, in the form of a vision. And I saw Knox and Sollecito looking sinister, and clearly involved in the murder. Notwithstanding, I knew I could accept the truth of Hellman's ruling. In terms of the occult, and of all things hidden, I concur with Hamlet, who said, "And therefore, as a stranger, give it welcome." Cheers.
October 24, 2011 9:53 PM

Man From Atlan said...
Speaking of "hypnogogic vision" I am also interested in the neuro-science of near death experiences.
There is a possible connection between the brain starvation/chemistry change that occurs at that point in time and that experienced by mystics who fast or take hallucinogenic drugs.

A separate line of enquiry might be the number of meditators who have micro-tumours on the pineal gland. Many of their visions can be traced to this, imo.
As someone who was a fan of the original "Mind Mirror", I love seeing the brain wave patterns that take place during meditation/spiritual activity.
All the best.
October 25, 2011 11:34 AM

RoseMontague said...
I am curious how much weight you give your astrological analysis as compared to the actual evidence in this case?
October 25, 2011 1:45 PM
SM Kovalinsky said...
I am interested also in hearing Man from Atlan's response to that question. I think that astrology, as CG Jung rightly said, can be an analytic and contemplative tool, but it cannot be used to declare facts about anything: Empirical data must rule in legal matters. Here is a quote from Jung , 1958:
"While studying astrology I have applied it to concrete cases many times. ... The experiment is most suggestive to a versatile mind, unreliable in the hands of the unimaginative, and dangerous in the hands of a fool, as those intuitive methods always are. If intelligently used the experiment is useful in cases where it is a matter of an opaque structure. It often provides surprising insights. The most definite limit of the experiment is lack of intelligence and literal-mindedness of the observer. ... Undoubtedly astrology today is flourishing as never before in the past, but it is still most unsatisfactorily explored despite very frequent use. It is an apt tool only when used intelligently. It is not at all foolproof and when used by a rationalistic and narrow mind it is a definite nuisance." -
October 25, 2011 3:03 PM

Man From Atlan said...
Hi, Rose. It was the evidence that convinced me in this case. My Psychism came second, and Astrology a distant third. I didn't even draw any charts until some time early this year.
What has been missing is an understanding of the motivation and psychology of the individuals involved. Astrology gave me the insights to flesh out that picture. I am quite aware I haven't met them personally or examined them, but am still astounded by the number of markers that confirm (to me) the scenario I hypothesised here and in the previous articles.
Therefore I accept the prosecution's argument, and not the defense's, based on the evidence alone. And if I were called upon to be a juror in any trial, I would never base as serious a matter as determining guilt or innocence on astrology.
But as a tool for understanding the psychology of individuals and their behaviour or potential for committing certain acts, yes, I use astrology.
October 25, 2011 4:57 PM

RoseMontague said...
Fair enough. Are you willing to discuss the evidence here?
October 25, 2011 8:54 PM

Man From Atlan said...
Hi Rose, no, since what you call 'evidence' is two opposing camps shouting at each other, and it's been 'discussed' at length all over the internet. There are websites that people can discover for themselves now. For myself, I am quite happy to wait for movement on the legal front in Italy, and will be concentrating on my own garden now.
The topic here is the spiritual, psychological and astrological aspects of the case. People can read my opinion on this, and make up their own minds.

@SMK, I'm neither the judge nor jury on this, so my opinion is equally as valid as any other blogger. I don't see why astrologers should refrain from commenting, but food column bloggers, veterinarians, truffle salesmen and scientologists should have free rein to do so (with all due respect)

Regarding Jung: Of course he would benefit from his studies of Hindu philosophy and Astrology and borrow themes from there to develop his own theory of archetypes. But he really was not qualified to speak further on astrology, having only touched the surface.

And yes, I do wish he had been able to stay longer in India. Hindu philosophy may have better enabled him to integrate the unconsciou­s within himself. I also suspect the 'psychosis­' he experience­d in 1913 which was the basis of his Red Book may have lasted all his life.
October 25, 2011 10:54 PM

SM Kovalinsky said...
I would agree that on your own blog, dedicated to psychoanalytic approaches, there is nothing wrong with using astrological analysis to discuss Knox and Sollecito - you are well within your rights to do so. I certainly was not implying that you were one of the "fools" in whose hands astrology is dangerous, as the Jung quote asserted. I think I was pointing out that you are well aware of both sides.
I am puzzled by those (not you) who say they accept Hellman's ruling, and yet wait for it to be overturned. Insofar as Jung's psychosis goes: I always thought the same thing. I believe he conducted much astrological research and many astrological experiments, but I also believe that he remained somewhat schizophrenic his whole life.
October 26, 2011 7:01 AM

Man From Atlan said...
I like to think we all are searching for the truth, no matter how and where that might be found.

Guilt or innocence will always be a matter for discussion, but the question of why we believe, now that's an interesting debate!
October 27, 2011 8:23 PM
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:53 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

Compelling article, Ergon. I would like to ask a question. You state:

To summarise then:
The relationship chart of Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox shows that in spite of the fact they only knew each other a week, they did have a relationship based on their inner psychological needs. This sort of 'fatedness' but also imbalance, can project outwards and explain why so many people are attracted to and support them, and others, not. And so we project back on to them what is inside ourselves, good or bad, and it is important we step back and examine our own attraction to this case.

Projection is, at times, a faulty tool. I'd like to know if the idea of 'instinct' falls here somewhere. Are thoughts and feelings that we take as instinctive, actually all 'projections', or 'learned' responses? Or do you believe some feelings and responses actually DO come from deeper, or more primal levels?
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:29 am   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

Ergon wrote:
A Psycho-Astrological Perspective on the Relationship of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=371
...
But really, there are very close links between astrology and psychology.


Thanks Ergon.

Off-topic, somewhat.

Just curious, do you know this book - Cosmos and Psyche by Richard Tarnas? He is Professor of Philosophy and Psychology at the California Institute of Integral Studies (CIIS) in San Francisco.

Attachment:
Tarnas Cosmos and Psyche.jpg


Just wanted to say that you are on the right path, doing the right thing by synthesizing your knowledge of psychology with your astrological work to elucidate psychological profiles of the three murderers. As regards your critics, their worldview is extremely limited; no need to pay attention to their (verbal) attacks. Scientists are now exploring different means of proving and probing the fifth dimension, while Knox Groupies and some members of the .org forum ;) remain caught up in old patterns of thinking in a 3-dimensional world; they possess a "Euclidean mind" with an idea of only three dimensions. All I can say is, "There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your Philosophy". Non-locality recognizes that at a deeper level of reality all things in the Universe - from the smallest to the largest scale - may be infinitely interconnected. Some people can see interconnections; others can't.

Here is an interesting video to watch on the weekend and share with the doubters:

COSMOS AND PSYCHE

More search results for "Richard Tarnas":

Richard Tarnas

And, for good measure, an interview with Stanislav Grof:

The Consciousness Revolution - Dr Stanislav Grof, San Francisco CA

Stanislav Grof

Enjoy. :)


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:10 am   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

Guermantes wrote:
Just wanted to say that you are on the right path, doing the right thing by synthesizing your knowledge of psychology with your astrological work to elucidate psychological profiles of the three murderers. As regards your critics, their worldview is extremely limited; no need to pay attention to their (verbal) attacks. Scientists are now exploring different means of proving and probing the fifth dimension, while Knox Groupies and some members of the .org forum ;) remain caught up in old patterns of thinking in a 3-dimensional world; they possess a "Eucleadean mind" with an idea of only three dimensions. All I can say is, "There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your Philosophy". Non-locality recognizes that at a deeper level of reality all things in the Universe - from the smallest to the largest scale - may be infinitely interconnected. Some people can see interconnections; others can't.



Not only that, they apply a clear double standard, They declare that because Ergon has metaphysical beliefs, that renders him a loon and therefore not credible in regard to his views on the case. Yet it would seem, it is perfectly fine for many in THEIR ranks to believe in a metaphysical God, miracles, magic, superhuman feats, demons, surreal events like talking bushes that are on fire and prophecy, all from a book that was written several thousand years ago by a small semetic tribe. I mean hey, then we'd have to throw out all the arguments and claims by people like Steve Moore. Ergon has Spiritual beliefs. They tend to forget, that many of them have spiritual beliefs also and Ergons beliefs are neither no less valid nor any more looney than theirs. And you know what? I'm going to show solidarity with Ergon and state that I believe in astrology too and in fact, don't see it as a belief but as a science. And as for alternative healing, it has validity and in many ways is better then conventional modern medicine which is based on drugs and surgery and concentrates on fixing the symptomatic illness, but not the causal illness, which is often hidden, in contrast to the holistic approach of alternative medicine, as well as sees quality of life of secondary import to the mechanics. The term 'alternative medicine' is wrongly applied to many therapies in any case, as it more correctly should be referred to as 'ancient medicine'. Whilst there may be one or two alternative therapies that have some negative or even dangerous effects, there is not a single one that doesn't have beneficial effects. The scientifically proven placebo effect alone dictates that to be the case. The placebo effect, which ironically, may be skewing results in human drug trials performed by conventional medical science. By its very nature, a placebo is not suitable as a control. But, I digress.

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:39 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

Thanks for the support, G & M. I'll reply later when I have a moment.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:13 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

Very interesting read, Ergon!
And thanks for the new input, Guermantes, I'll watch the vids when I get the chance.
Nice weekend, everyone! :)
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:04 am   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

@guermantes, no I haven't read Cosmos and Psyche, but know his work and am in full agreement. Here's what he wrote back after the WTC attacks http://www.gaiamind.org/WTCNotes.html and it is these Saturn/Pluto aspects that are reflected not only in world events, but also in the breakdown in the psyches of people everywhere.

As he says,

"Here then are characteristic manifestations when Saturn and Pluto come into major hard alignment:

1) Dark, grave, momentous, deadly serious, profoundly weighty events.

2) Intensely dramatic times, with enduring consequences ensuing from current decisions and actions, with much at stake, often with life and death issues in the balance.

3) The feeling of being caught helplessly in the grip of overwhelming, powerful, and often dark forces, of being the victim of large ruthless impersonal forces of nature or of history that are both destructive and imprisoning. More generally, a sense of larger powers of any kind—social, historical, elemental, biological, archetypal—being in control of one’s life. The powerlessness of the entrapped and suffering victim is usually matched by an obsessive drive for control, power, and domination, the two sides of the experience mirroring each other, sometimes occurring in alternation in the same person or community.

4) Deep humiliation effected by violence, violation, and defeat. A compensatory need to prove one's steely strength, power, and invulnerability.

5) The empowerment of forces of hatred, murderous aggression, of evil and the demonic, of the secretive and subversive, of the underworld—elemental, instinctual, criminal—with consequences that are punitive, defeating, traumatic, contracting, tragic. More generally, the simultaneous experience in extreme form of both violence and contraction.

6) Absolute determination, courage, and sacrifice, unbending will, intensely brave silent strenuous effort. Superhuman physical and moral exertion in the face of horrific circumstances, perilous threat, murderous hostility (the firemen and police in the World Trade Center, the passengers that stopped the hijackers in the jet that crashed in Pennsylvania from hitting their intended targets). Extreme self-control in dangerous and terrifying situations. (These qualities also pertain of course, in twisted form, to the suicidal hijackers themselves.)

7) A deeply sobering awareness of the world’s dangerousness. The potential for either a highly grounded and experienced realism in the face of a harshly challenging world, or paranoid fears of hidden organized plots and dangers.

An intense focusing of concentration on a deadly serious reality. In the extreme, the naked encounter with one’s own death, producing in response either mortal panic or unflinching courage.

8) The empowerment of conservative or reactionary forces, bringing about an emphatic increase in defensive armoring, rigid boundaries, hostile separation.

9) A tremendous intensification of the harshest aspects of reality—material, mortal, existential. Negativity of overwhelming, mass dimensions. Deprivation, poverty, hardship. Sadness intensified to anguish. At worst, intense mass suffering, death, loss, grief, agony.

10) The encounter with that form of the numinous which inspires awe and dread, even terror; confronting a power—divine or natural—whose stupendous elemental destructiveness is more than human, that stupefies the imagination.

11) The eruption of massive, titanic, volcanic, overwhelming elemental forces that have a negative, collapsing, constricting effect.

12) The annihilation of the established order and of the enduring structures symbolizing that order. Also, established structures of power which are experienced as being both oppressive and evil, and thus deserving of ruthless destruction. (The World Trade Center and Pentagon as Saturn—supreme symbols of established order and control; Pluto as violent destruction, as the terrorist underworld, and as extreme hatred, demonic both in intensity and as projected onto the established structure of power.)

13) Confinement and constriction intensified to claustrophobic, life-threatening, or even lethal dimensions (cf. the fetus struggling in the contractions of birth; suffocation; helpless entrapment by larger physical forces; Saturn-Pluto is the central aspect of the perinatal trauma—both Grof and Rank, the major psychologists of the birth trauma, had this aspect).

14) Experiences that in their traumatic intensity and gravity take many years to absorb, integrate, or heal from. More generally, events that are extremely enduring in their consequences—both destructively and constructively—establishing new structures and orders of life, either solidifying or oppressive, deadening or maturing.

15) In general, the emphatic intensification of conflict and separation, of intractable enmities, of problems, contradictions, and oppositions.

16) The tendency towards ruthless complete "othering": intense objectification of other subjects. This extreme objectification combined with the projection or experience of evil and shadow qualities, thereby impelling cruel behavior, hatred, revenge, murder, anger, suspicion, fear, terror, greed, fanaticism (Pluto). All made possible by establishing or experiencing an absolute boundary (Saturn) between self and other as separate and alien, often seeing the other as subhuman and unworthy of life (references to beasts, devils, swamps, vermin, lairs, hunting down animals, etc.).

17) A tendency to see things in terms of a confrontation between good and evil.

18) Both the confrontation with evil, with the shadow, and the constellating of it. Periods of collective intense and heavy judgment, blame, scapegoating, punishment, execution.

19) Historically a tendency in the collective psyche to constellate the shadow by eliciting or projecting archetypal "faces of the enemy," seeing or experiencing darkness and violent evil in the other, resulting in periodic historical contractions bringing war, mass death. There is usually a powerful focus of grave concern and fear in the collective psyche onto a particular object, either as scapegoat or as authentic danger or evil—the "Evil Empire" (Reagan against Soviet Union) in 1981-84; the apocalyptic nuclear danger of the superpower arms race reaching its peak during the same period, with widespread fear of World War III; the Germans and Japanese in 1939-41, the Communist Soviet Union at start of Cold War (1946-48), international terrorism now.

20) Experiences of irrevocable catastrophe, intense loss, endings, death, resulting in lasting sense of deep heaviness, darkness, and sorrow often combined with anxiety.

21) A sense of the tremendous inescapable weight and burden of history, the past, errors from the past, ancient resentments and enmities.

22) The sense of an ominous, darker reality descending on an age.

23) A sense of the irrevocable end of an era; the destruction of the established order of existence, the end of an earlier mode of life characterized by naivete, inflation, or illusion. "The end of innocence."
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:59 am   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

Napia5 wrote:
Compelling article, Ergon. I would like to ask a question. You state:

To summarise then:
The relationship chart of Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox shows that in spite of the fact they only knew each other a week, they did have a relationship based on their inner psychological needs. This sort of 'fatedness' but also imbalance, can project outwards and explain why so many people are attracted to and support them, and others, not. And so we project back on to them what is inside ourselves, good or bad, and it is important we step back and examine our own attraction to this case.

Projection is, at times, a faulty tool. I'd like to know if the idea of 'instinct' falls here somewhere. Are thoughts and feelings that we take as instinctive, actually all 'projections', or 'learned' responses? Or do you believe some feelings and responses actually DO come from deeper, or more primal levels?


Hi, Napia5. I'll answer your question from my own perspective; hope that helps. My study of psychology arose from early childhood spiritual experiences that later went into what we call the Psychic, and the Occult.

I see Psychism as an extreme emotional sensitivity that can often often lead to the breakdown of the Psyche, and it only was a short leap to see there was a very fine line between Psychism and mental illness. We know that Jung had an extreme emotional breakdown prior to the time he wrote The Red Book. I believe he went very deep into areas of the occult one should not do so without a teacher. of course, I have seen graduates of siddhi yoga and falun gong training go through similar breakdowns.

I do not agree that sensitivity, that receptivity comes from a Universal Consciousness alone. We are sensitive to projections from others, from environment (the pyramids of Gizeh, Mount Fuji, Mauna Kea, Mt. Shasta come to mind) from past lives.

Yes, 'instinct' can be a primal survival based response. Intuition and Psychism, on the other hand, comes from deeper connections with parallel dimensions.

I believe there are an infinite number of parallel dimensions across time and space. We tap into them often, yet are unaware of it at the time. They manifest in this life and we become aware of them in our relationships, our feelings, the repeated patterns of our lives. I am convinced that spiritualism is a way of tapping into those dimensions.

I see the chakras as storehouses of memory within ourselves. Each chakra has a particular function and in my cosmology the solar plexus chakra is the seat of the Psyche, the feet being the seat of the material phase, and karma, and the Crown Chakra, the gateway into the spiritual.

But each chakra also is a door into these dimensions. Therefore the brow is where we tap into our intuitive sides.

I think thoughts and feelings are indeed (on a superficial level) learned responses. They also, come from deeper levels. Analysis and the rational mind can keep them within some sort of structure, but as soon as you open up to intuition and deeper feelings, it's interesting to see where they come from.

Some say that when you meditate on a mandala, you open yourself up to a higher consciousness. So, and astrology is not the only tool I utilise, when you draw an astrological chart, that becomes a mandala. You then get insights, and where you get those insights from, that is the question...

I hope this helped, and if this leads to other questions, I'd be glad to help.

Ergon.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:10 am   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

Michael wrote:
Guermantes wrote:
Just wanted to say that you are on the right path, doing the right thing by synthesizing your knowledge of psychology with your astrological work to elucidate psychological profiles of the three murderers. As regards your critics, their worldview is extremely limited; no need to pay attention to their (verbal) attacks. Scientists are now exploring different means of proving and probing the fifth dimension, while Knox Groupies and some members of the .org forum ;) remain caught up in old patterns of thinking in a 3-dimensional world; they possess a "Eucleadean mind" with an idea of only three dimensions. All I can say is, "There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your Philosophy". Non-locality recognizes that at a deeper level of reality all things in the Universe - from the smallest to the largest scale - may be infinitely interconnected. Some people can see interconnections; others can't.



Not only that, they apply a clear double standard, They declare that because Ergon has metaphysical beliefs, that renders him a loon and therefore not credible in regard to his views on the case. Yet it would seem, it is perfectly fine for many in THEIR ranks to believe in a metaphysical God, miracles, magic, superhuman feats, demons, surreal events like talking bushes that are on fire and prophecy, all from a book that was written several thousand years ago by a small semetic tribe. I mean hey, then we'd have to throw out all the arguments and claims by people like Steve Moore. Ergon has Spiritual beliefs. They tend to forget, that many of them have spiritual beliefs also and Ergons beliefs are neither no less valid nor any more looney than theirs. And you know what? I'm going to show solidarity with Ergon and state that I believe in astrology too and in fact, don't see it as a belief but as a science. And as for alternative healing, it has validity and in many ways is better then conventional modern medicine which is based on drugs and surgery and concentrates on fixing the symptomatic illness, but not the causal illness, which is often hidden, in contrast to the holistic approach of alternative medicine, as well as sees quality of life of secondary import to the mechanics. The term 'alternative medicine' is wrongly applied to many therapies in any case, as it more correctly should be referred to as 'ancient medicine'. Whilst there may be one or two alternative therapies that have some negative or even dangerous effects, there is not a single one that doesn't have beneficial effects. The scientifically proven placebo effect alone dictates that to be the case. The placebo effect, which ironically, may be skewing results in human drug trials performed by conventional medical science. By its very nature, a placebo is not suitable as a control. But, I digress.


Astrology is not a science.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:35 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

Thank you, Ergon for your response. I realize as I read, that what I asked requires much more knowledge on my part to understand what you impart. On the subject of astrology, I take the attitude of 'respect for the possibility' of its importance in our lives. I DO believe that your advice about following the guide of a teacher is quite wise. Similar to the saying, " Don't follow a path in the dark unless you are sure the guy ahead of you has a flashlight."
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:27 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

DanielSC wrote:

Astrology is not a science.


Is Psychology a science, in your view?
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:02 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

Ergon wrote:
@guermantes, no I haven't read Cosmos and Psyche, but know his work and am in full agreement. Here's what he wrote back after the WTC attacks http://www.gaiamind.org/WTCNotes.html and it is these Saturn/Pluto aspects that are reflected not only in world events, but also in the breakdown in the psyches of people everywhere.


Thanks Ergon for an abbreviated synopsis on understanding Saturn and Pluto combinations from Tarnas's World Trade Center talk just after 9/11; I've already e-mailed the link to some of my friends. :)

Tarnas's prose is so lovely and lucid, and his presentation so elegant, it's a pleasure to read. "Cosmos and Psyche" is a remarkable book, written in a beautiful language. From the very first page, you know that you're in the hands of a brilliant, intense, insightful writer who has mastered the art of explaining complex concepts in illuminating prose and works magic with language (highly, highly recommended).

I'll post some thoughts in the Criminal Mind thread later on when I have more time.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:04 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

Ergon wrote:
DanielSC wrote:

Astrology is not a science.


Is Psychology a science, in your view?


Psychology uses the scientific method. Astrology is a sad joke
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:42 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

DanielSC wrote:
Psychology uses the scientific method. Astrology is a sad joke


Sorry DanielSC, do you think Tarnas is a liar and charlatan?

Lest you label him some kind of crackpot, consider that he is a serious scientist who carried out serious research and discussed his thoughts and findings with scientists all over the world.

No offense meant here, but if I were to choose, I'd believe HIM, rather than you.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:02 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

guermantes wrote:
DanielSC wrote:
Psychology uses the scientific method. Astrology is a sad joke


Sorry DanielSC, do you think Tarnas is a liar and charlatan?

Lest you label him some kind of crackpot, consider that he is a serious scientist who carried out serious research and discussed his thoughts and findings with scientists all over the world.

No offense meant here, but if I were to choose, I'd believe HIM, rather than you.


I'm not offended that you believe in a total joke. You could also choose to believe the 99.99% of scientists who know that astrology is a joke too. Believe what you want.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:29 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

DanuelSC wrote:
I'm not offended that you believe in a total joke. You could also choose to believe the 99.99% of scientists who know that astrology is a joke too. Believe what you want.


Scientists who 'know'? That word is an absolute and means the awareness of a hard fact. I am aware of no scientific experiment that has proven astrology to be utterly without basis. Therefore, you will have to substitute the word 'know' with 'believe'. The fact is, scientists engage in 'faith' as much as the rest of us and that faith often leads to dogma.

And as for what scientists believe. Many many times during the history of science, we have seen scientists pose theories and ideas that have earned them ridicule and even hostility from their peers, only for in later years their ideas to be proven correct by science. Therefore, as they are capabable of being wrong just as much as anyone else I don't care what scientists believe, only for what they can actually prove.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:43 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

Michael wrote:
DanuelSC wrote:
I'm not offended that you believe in a total joke. You could also choose to believe the 99.99% of scientists who know that astrology is a joke too. Believe what you want.


Scientists who 'know'? That word is an absolute and means the awareness of a hard fact. I am aware of no scientific experiment that has proven astrology to be utterly without basis. Therefore, you will have to substitute the word 'know' with 'believe'. The fact is, scientists engage in 'faith' as much as the rest of us and that faith often leads to dogma.

And as for what scientists believe. Many many times during the history of science, we have seen scientists pose theories and ideas that have earned them ridicule and even hostility from their peers, only for in later years their ideas to be proven correct by science. Therefore, as they are capabable of being wrong just as much as anyone else I don't care what scientists believe, only for what they can actually prove.


Astrology is not science. Science actually has a real definition and astrology does not fall into this category. It's not even a close call. There has been NO scientific experiment that has proven astrology to have any real basis. It's a joke and a very sad one.

To your last point, it's actually laughable. When astrology is vindicated by a real scientific consensus, you let me know, mmkay? See you in never.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:46 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

How do you arrive at the conclusion that "99.99% of scientists know that astrology is a joke too"?
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:50 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

Ergon wrote:
How do you arrive at the conclusion that "99.99% of scientists know that astrology is a joke too"?


My apologies, I probably should have added another .9 to the end to be more accurate.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:02 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

Ah, absolutism and dogmatism all in the same sentence. Very scientific, I am sure :)
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:03 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

Asrtology is 'A' science. The science you speak of has its own rules and those rules are ARBITRARY. There is more then one science.

There has been no scientific experiment that has proven ET exists, yet scientists believe he may. And as I said to you in my last post, those scientists that were ridiculed for their ideas...there was no scientific experiment proving their ideas to be correct either...until much later and until then it was the consensus of their peers they were wrong. Lots of people are as capable of being wrong as a few people. I don't care if one scientist believes something or if a thousand do, it doesn't suddenly make their belief a fact, let alone a truth.

How do you know we along with the world and universe exist Daniel and it isn't all a dream constructed by you...has there been a scientific experiment proving that isn't the case? There hasn't because there can't be, because any such experiment could also be merely a construct of your mind. 'Science', as you call it, has its limitations. You have to take it on faith that we are actually here and as such, our whole universes are built on that foundation of faith.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:22 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

Michael wrote:
Asrtology is 'A' science. The science you speak of has its own rules and those rules are ARBITRARY. There is more then one science.

There has been no scientific experiment that has proven ET exists, yet scientists believe he may. And as I said to you in my last post, those scientists that were ridiculed for their ideas...there was no scientific experiment proving their ideas to be correct either...until much later and until then it was the consensus of their peers they were wrong. Lots of people are as capable of being wrong as a few people. I don't care if one scientist believes something or if a thousand do, it doesn't suddenly make their belief a fact, let alone a truth.

How do you know we along with the world and universe exist Daniel and it isn't all a dream constructed by you...has there been a scientific experiment proving that isn't the case? There hasn't because there can't be, because any such experiment could also be merely a construct of your mind. 'Science', as you call it, has its limitations. You have to take it on faith that we are actually here and as such, our whole universes are built on that foundation of faith.


No, astrology is not "A" science at all. All you're doing is adding your own arbitrary definition of what science is. It's about as logical as saying, "astrology is spaghetti", because of course, you've created your own arbitrary definition of what spaghetti is. Nevermind the fact that science has an actual definition----one which astrology does not fall under.

Scientists believe ET may exist based on real scientific principles and probabilities based on what we know about the universe and the natural world, unlike the hogwash spat out by astrologists that has no objective foundation.

Quote:
How do you know we along with the world and universe exist Daniel and it isn't all a dream constructed by you


That's a philosphical question. Yes I've read Descartes. What's your point? Science is the study of the natural world and uses an objective approach as its cornerstone.

Quote:
those scientists that were ridiculed for their ideas...there was no scientific experiment proving their ideas to be correct either


Oh you mean like Galileo? Who actually had credible and factual reasons, not hogwash like astrologists, to actually support his theory?

Quote:
'Science', as you call it, has its limitations.


Absolutely. However, that doesn't lend any credibility to astrology (which is a total joke).

Quote:
I don't care if one scientist believes something or if a thousand do, it doesn't suddenly make their belief a fact, let alone a truth.


Certain things are "scientific fact". I'm assuming you know what that means. Evolution, for example, is a scientific fact. Whether I believe in evolution or not is a different matter. It is still a scientific fact regardless of that belief.


Last edited by DanielSC on Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:24 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

double post
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:32 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

Ergon wrote:
Ah, absolutism and dogmatism all in the same sentence. Very scientific, I am sure :)


You're confusing absolute fact with scientific fact. If you want to believe in astrology, that's your right. Just don't call it science, cause it isn't.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:33 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

I think our learned friend is confusing Science with The Scientific Method, Michael :)

Definition of science
the study of the physical and natural world and phenomena, especially by using systematic observation and experiment
http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_18617 ... ience.html
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Offline DanielSC


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:53 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

Ergon wrote:
I think our learned friend is confusing Science with The Scientific Method, Michael :)

Definition of science
the study of the physical and natural world and phenomena, especially by using systematic observation and experiment
http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_18617 ... ience.html


I'm starting to wonder if you even understand how the scientific method works. Please do let us know the measurable data that actually supports the joke that is astrology, by all means.
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Offline DanielSC


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:59 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

Speaking of dictionary definitions, here's a great one:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/astrology

noun
1.
the study that assumes and attempts to interpret the influence of the heavenly bodies on human affairs.
2.
OBSOLETE. the science of astronomy.

(emphasis added)
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:17 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

DanielSC wrote:
Ergon wrote:
I think our learned friend is confusing Science with The Scientific Method, Michael :)

Definition of science
the study of the physical and natural world and phenomena, especially by using systematic observation and experiment
http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_18617 ... ience.html


I'm starting to wonder if you even understand how the scientific method works. Please do let us know the measurable data that actually supports the joke that is astrology, by all means.


You first. Please provide the measurable data that actually supports your assertion that 99.999% of scientists think astrology is a joke. You know, extraordinary claims, and all that? ;)

I hesitate to provide the Gauquelin data, considering the community of science fetishists known as CSICOP lied about it the last time.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:24 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

double post


Last edited by DanielSC on Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:24 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

Ergon wrote:
DanielSC wrote:
Ergon wrote:
I think our learned friend is confusing Science with The Scientific Method, Michael :)

Definition of science
the study of the physical and natural world and phenomena, especially by using systematic observation and experiment
http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_18617 ... ience.html


I'm starting to wonder if you even understand how the scientific method works. Please do let us know the measurable data that actually supports the joke that is astrology, by all means.


You first. Please provide the measurable data that actually supports your assertion that 99.999% of scientists think astrology is a joke. You know, extraordinary claims, and all that? ;)

I hesitate to provide the Gauquelin data, considering the community of science fetishists known as CSICOP lied about it the last time.


Your question is irrelevant. The problem is, if the number was 70% of scientists actually believed in the joke that is astrology? It's still not a "science". Those scientist's beliefs that astrology is credible would not be based on any scientific and objective data to support that belief, because there isn't any. Like I said before, you're free to believe in it, but it ain't science. There is no credible objective data that supports it.....at all.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:26 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

DanielSC wrote:
Speaking of dictionary definitions, here's a great one:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/astrology

noun
1.
the study that assumes and attempts to interpret the influence of the heavenly bodies on human affairs.
2.
OBSOLETE. the science of astronomy.

(emphasis added)


Well, that's a poorly written definition, considering that most astrologists still debate causality vs correlation, and are open to both.

But then, you still need to explain why you consider psychology to be a science, and not, astrology. Surely, both are subjective?
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:09 am   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

DanielSC wrote:
Ergon wrote:
DanielSC wrote:
Ergon wrote:
I think our learned friend is confusing Science with The Scientific Method, Michael :)

Definition of science
the study of the physical and natural world and phenomena, especially by using systematic observation and experiment
http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_18617 ... ience.html


I'm starting to wonder if you even understand how the scientific method works. Please do let us know the measurable data that actually supports the joke that is astrology, by all means.


You first. Please provide the measurable data that actually supports your assertion that 99.999% of scientists think astrology is a joke. You know, extraordinary claims, and all that? ;)

I hesitate to provide the Gauquelin data, considering the community of science fetishists known as CSICOP lied about it the last time.


Your question is irrelevant. The problem is, if the number was 70% of scientists actually believed in the joke that is astrology? It's still not a "science". Those scientist's beliefs that astrology is credible would not be based on any scientific and objective data to support that belief, because there isn't any. Like I said before, you're free to believe in it, but it ain't science. There is no credible objective data that supports it.....at all.


There you go again, passing off your personal opinions as proven fact. Michael believes Astrology is a science, you don't. Yet even when I dropped in a hint about Gauquelin, the French statistician http://www.theoryofastrology.com/gauque ... effect.htm who came up with what is called the "Mars Effect" which researched the high incidence of planet Mars placements on angles of succesful sportsmen, you didn't even know what I was talking about, thus showing how little you know about the subject you consider to be a "joke". For your information, Gauquelin's data has been independently verified.

But then, one suspects you would be equally as adept as ignoring any data that supports the efficacy of homoeopathy, which throws up the possibility of um, dishonest debate on the part of your good self.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:35 am   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

Napia5 wrote:
Thank you, Ergon for your response. I realize as I read, that what I asked requires much more knowledge on my part to understand what you impart. On the subject of astrology, I take the attitude of 'respect for the possibility' of its importance in our lives. I DO believe that your advice about following the guide of a teacher is quite wise. Similar to the saying, " Don't follow a path in the dark unless you are sure the guy ahead of you has a flashlight."


Thanks, Napia5. I let my enthusiasm for the subject run away with me. But learned responses can indeed, come from a very deep place.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:41 am   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

DanielSC wrote:
That's a philosophical question. Yes I've read Descartes. What's your point? Science is the study of the natural world and uses an objective approach as its cornerstone.


Looks like Daniel is a hard-core rationalist (sorry). Descartes is so passé. I hope you've heard of the so-called "observation problem" in quantum theory.

Wolfgang Pauli (Nobel Prize in Physics, 1945):

"...though we now have natural sciences, we no longer have a scientific picture of the world. This very circumstance, however, should make it easier to move toward a unified concept of the entire cosmos, of which the natural sciences are only a part."

Carl Gustav Jung:

"The experimental method of inquiry aims at establishing regular events which can be repeated. Consequently, unique or rare events are ruled out of account. Moreover, the experiment imposes limiting conditions on nature, for its aim is to force her to give answers to questions devised by man. Every answer of nature is therefore more or less influenced by the kind of questions asked, and the answer is always a hybrid product. The so-called "scientific view of the world" based on this can hardly be anything more than a psychologically biased partial view which misses out all those by no means unimportant aspects that cannot be grasped statistically...

Absolutely unique and ephemeral events whose existence we have no means of either denying or proving can never be the object of empirical science; rare events might very well be, provided that there was a sufficient number of reliable individual observations. The so-called possibility of such events is of no importance whatsoever, for the criterion of what is possible in any age is derived from that age's rationalistic assumptions.

There are no "absolute" natural laws to whose authority one can appeal to support one's prejudices."

"This grasping of the whole is obviously the aim of science... but it is a goal that lies very far off because science, whenever possible, proceeds experimentally and in all cases statistically."

" Natural law possesses a merely statistical validity and thus keeps the door open to indeterminism."
-------------------------

Alright, I give up...
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:36 am   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

guermantes wrote:
DanielSC wrote:
That's a philosophical question. Yes I've read Descartes. What's your point? Science is the study of the natural world and uses an objective approach as its cornerstone.


Looks like Daniel is a hard-core rationalist (sorry). Descartes is so passé. I hope you've heard of the so-called "observation problem" in quantum theory.

Wolfgang Pauli (Nobel Prize in Physics, 1945):

"...though we now have natural sciences, we no longer have a scientific picture of the world. This very circumstance, however, should make it easier to move toward a unified concept of the entire cosmos, of which the natural sciences are only a part."

Carl Gustav Jung:

"The experimental method of inquiry aims at establishing regular events which can be repeated. Consequently, unique or rare events are ruled out of account. Moreover, the experiment imposes limiting conditions on nature, for its aim is to force her to give answers to questions devised by man. Every answer of nature is therefore more or less influenced by the kind of questions asked, and the answer is always a hybrid product. The so-called "scientific view of the world" based on this can hardly be anything more than a psychologically biased partial view which misses out all those by no means unimportant aspects that cannot be grasped statistically...

Absolutely unique and ephemeral events whose existence we have no means of either denying or proving can never be the object of empirical science; rare events might very well be, provided that there was a sufficient number of reliable individual observations. The so-called possibility of such events is of no importance whatsoever, for the criterion of what is possible in any age is derived from that age's rationalistic assumptions.

There are no "absolute" natural laws to whose authority one can appeal to support one's prejudices."

"This grasping of the whole is obviously the aim of science... but it is a goal that lies very far off because science, whenever possible, proceeds experimentally and in all cases statistically."

" Natural law possesses a merely statistical validity and thus keeps the door open to indeterminism."
-------------------------

Alright, I give up...


Jeez. A rationalist. What a horrible horrible thing to be. Anyways, thanks for the Jung quotes. None of them actually add any credence to the argument that astrology is a science, but that's ok.

Not to be too confrontational here, but Ergon, after our conversation on this board I looked at your blog and website. I might be missing some sort of nuance in your writing, but it appears you literally believe you are the messiah incarnate. You describe yourself as: "He is Krishna, Kalki, Imam Mahdi and Messiah, Jesus Christ. And more." Do you mean this literally?
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:40 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

Not to be evasive, DanielSC, but I will defend what I wrote here, here, and what I wrote elsewhere, elsewhere. I think that would be fair, don't you?
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:49 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

I'm sorry you missed guermantes point, DanielSC, but Jung and Pauli were pointing out the deficiencies in what is narrowly called 'Science', and calling for new definitions.

Me, I like the old one best, that I referred to earlier. And if you want to throw out thousands of years of observation and experimentation, that is your prerogative, or prejudice.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:13 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

Ergon wrote:
Not to be evasive, DanielSC, but I will defend what I wrote here, here, and what I wrote elsewhere, elsewhere. I think that would be fair, don't you?


No one is asking you to "defend" anything. But now that you represent PMF and you havechcsen to be out in the open about who you are. I do think you should explain it. I do think it hurts our credibility as a site if people are under the assumption that one of the main mods/admins thinks he's the messiah.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:25 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

That is a point much raised already by the FOAK, dot. org, and various neo-con sites (for my anti-war posts) so join the crowd. As I already brought up my websites and views to Peter Quennell, Peggy Ganong and Michael's attention, precisely to avoid this sort of conflict, and received assurances (from all of them) what I wrote elsewhere would have no effect on my posts, I think that is sufficient to just refer you to Michael's letter of support above. It's up to him to decide whether it 'affects the credibility of this site' or not.

It also is suspicious that you should be going on at it. For the record, I do not hold your association with James Randi against you, and I consider him a loathsome creature. But, more importantly, I think I've proven quite well that I am supported quite strongly on both sides of the PMF divide, both .org and .net except for a few cranks.

Please respect board rules regarding bringing disputes from (or about) other sites here. It has no bearing on what I do here, but if it bothers you, you're free to leave.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:45 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

Ergon wrote:
That is a point much raised already by the FOAK, dot. org, and various neo-con sites (for my anti-war posts) so join the crowd. As I already brought up my websites and views to Peter Quennell, Peggy Ganong and Michael's attention, precisely to avoid this sort of conflict, and received assurances (from all of them) what I wrote elsewhere would have no effect on my posts, I think that is sufficient to just refer you to Michael's letter of support above. It's up to him to decide whether it 'affects the credibility of this site' or not.

It also is suspicious that you should be going on at it. For the record, I do not hold your association with James Randi against you, and I consider him a loathsome creature. But, more importantly, I think I've proven quite well that I am supported quite strongly on both sides of the PMF divide, both .org and .net except for a few cranks.

Please respect board rules regarding bringing disputes from (or about) other sites here. It has no bearing on what I do here, but if it bothers you, you're free to leave.


You're free to ban me if you want. I already asked once for Michael to cancel my account but that was not honored. If Michael is ok with a mod/admin who thinks he's the messiah, then I personally think that's a problem. The truth is, it does effect your posts. This site doesn't exist in a vaccume. Do you honestly think if someone like say, Peter Quennell, had another website where he said he was the second coming of christ, it would not effect how he was perceived elsewhere? You don't think TJMK would lose quite a bit of credibility? It's interesting you think I'm somehow associated with James Randi. I've visited the board maybe once in my life. I know this is going to be shocking, but not everyone who thinks astrology is a joke is in cahootz with James Randi.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:49 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

So you have a previous dispute with Michael? He doesn't have the time to delete every person who remained on .org when they hijacked the site. All you have to do is not post here, and come to think of it, you have posted there more often than here until you decided to get on your anti-astrology hobby horse.

Therefore i don't see what right you have to go on at me about views I hold elsewhere. It is up to you to address that to Michael if you wish, but you clearly ignore what he's already said in my support.

You did refer on a couple of occasions on .org to seeing Randi at his next conference. As I already said, i do not hold whatever association you do have with him against you, and that might include being influenced by him. Your agumentative style seems a reflection of his own, tendentious skeptical style.

Your criticisms of whether astrology is a science or not receiving short shrift here, you start another line of argument, which, being O/T, effectively hijacks the thread.

I'm not going to oblige you with a banning so you can whinge about it elsewhere. But I will delete every subsequent O/T post.

Cheers,

Ergon
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:28 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

Ergon wrote:
So you have a previous dispute with Michael? He doesn't have the time to delete every person who remained on .org when they hijacked the site. All you have to do is not post here, and come to think of it, you have posted there more often than here until you decided to get on your anti-astrology hobby horse.

Therefore i don't see what right you have to go on at me about views I hold elsewhere. It is up to you to address that to Michael if you wish, but you clearly ignore what he's already said in my support.

You did refer on a couple of occasions on .org to seeing Randi at his next conference. As I already said, i do not hold whatever association you do have with him against you, and that might include being influenced by him. Your agumentative style seems a reflection of his own, tendentious skeptical style.

Your criticisms of whether astrology is a science or not receiving short shrift here, you start another line of argument, which, being O/T, effectively hijacks the thread.

I'm not going to oblige you with a banning so you can whinge about it elsewhere. But I will delete every subsequent O/T post.

Cheers,

Ergon


I wouldn't say I had a dispute with Michael. I've always liked the guy, and as far as I can see, he's never claimed to be the messiah, so that's a plus. I never asked him to delete my account based on the split.

Further, I'm not about to do an analysis of the number of my posts, but I'm pretty sure I've posted more on .net than the .org.

Quote:
Therefore i don't see what right you have to go on at me about views I hold elsewhere. It is up to you to address that to Michael if you wish, but you clearly ignore what he's already said in my support.


Your views reflect on PMF as a whole. It's one thing to think you are a healer, astrologist, whatever. It's another to claim you are the son of God or the messiah. That in fact damages the integrity of PMF as you are now moderator/admin here. And further, it is YOU who is posting your other websites on THIS board, and then claiming that what you post over there is irrelevant to here.

Additionally, you've already violated PMF rules by inviting Andrea Vogt and Barbie Nadeau to join our discussion. Though they are much respected journalists, if you actually read the rules of the forum, they are not allowed to be members here.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:46 am   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

But you did ask him to delete your account, and say he didn't 'honor' it. Where did I imply whatever issues you had with him were because of the split?

My website was well known by PMF before I accepted the moderator's position.

One troll has already tried to make an issue of it.

Michael has already written above that my "spiritual beliefs" had no bearing on my position. I invited you therefore to take your beef up with him, but you choose instead to repetitiously argue your case with me in the public forum. I find that curious

I also find it curious, (but I'm not surprised) that Peggy Ganong should also be harping about my 'astrology', that Peter Quennell tried to bring up my beliefs on .org (but backtracked when shot down by other members) right now.

Your reference to 'forum rules' when it came to my inviting Nadeau and Vogt to drop in really piqued my curiousity, but also, revealed where you're coming from.

I only have 8 or 9 followers on my twitter feed. You are not one of them, but several members of TJMk and .org are. How did you know I'd announced my moderatorship and invited Nadeau and Vogt to "drop in on the discussion" at .net? Almost my exact words, so it appears that someone isn't too happy about my letting Vogt and Nadeau know we're here? It appears that someone fed you that line. I do have several friends there, you know, so don't be surprised when I tell you that other people have already been fed their lines? And they complain about our tactics? btw, the forum rules apply to "those paid to post on blogs and discussion forums" so you obviously have a poor grasp. Not that i expected them to join as members, their rules prevent that. I was inviting them to observe, and making our presence known. Obviously, some don't want that to happen.

It seems that attacking me has become the new tactic by the minions. Hmm, I wonder why?
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:14 am   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

Ergon wrote:
But you did ask him to delete your account, and say he didn't 'honor' it. Where did I imply whatever issues you had with him were because of the split?

My website was well known by PMF before I accepted the moderator's position.

One troll has already tried to make an issue of it.

Michael has already written above that my "spiritual beliefs" had no bearing on my position. I invited you therefore to take your beef up with him, but you choose instead to repetitiously argue your case with me in the public forum. I find that curious

I also find it curious, (but I'm not surprised) that Peggy Ganong should also be harping about my 'astrology', that Peter Quennell tried to bring up my beliefs on .org (but backtracked when shot down by other members) right now.

Your reference to 'forum rules' when it came to my inviting Nadeau and Vogt to drop in really piqued my curiousity, but also, revealed where you're coming from.

I only have 8 or 9 followers on my twitter feed. You are not one of them, but several members of TJMk and .org are. How did you know I'd announced my moderatorship and invited Nadeau and Vogt to "drop in on the discussion" at .net? Almost my exact words, so it appears that someone isn't too happy about my letting Vogt and Nadeau know we're here? It appears that someone fed you that line. I do have several friends there, you know, so don't be surprised when I tell you that other people have already been fed their lines? And they complain about our tactics? btw, the forum rules apply to "those paid to post on blogs and discussion forums" so you obviously have a poor grasp. Not that i expected them to join as members, their rules prevent that. I was inviting them to observe, and making our presence known. Obviously, some don't want that to happen.

It seems that attacking me has become the new tactic by the minions. Hmm, I wonder why?


Oh please. One does not need to follow you on twitter to actually read what you write there. And as far as someone "feeding me" lines from PMF.org, that's just really funny to me because YOU are the last person to PM me on .org about the death of my pet. Go ahead and try to find anyone who is "feeding me lines". You will fail. Not even worried about that.

Quote:
Michael has already written above that my "spiritual beliefs" had no bearing on my position.


Does he know your claiming you are the messiah? It's one thing to have spiritual beliefs, it's another to be claiming your are literally the second coming of Jesus Christ. That hurts PMF's credibility. It should have a bearing on your position here.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:40 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

Quit it with the Ergon bashing please!

Ergon's spiritual views are not relevant to his being a Moderator here. Do you know why? As a Moderator, his role is simply to help enforce the ALREADY EXISTING rules, policy and ethos of PMF, not write them. He is simply a member of staff doing a job and so far, I've had no complaints from the membership regarding his work.

I am wondering, were Ergon a professed Buddhist, Hindu or Catholic would there be such a fuss? I don't think so. And if it were the case that he were one of those, would it be a requirement that his fellow PMF members and staff also believe in his spiritual beliefs? Again, I don't think so. Therefore, if certain people are taking offence, then it is more a reflection of their own prejudice rather than any problem either with Ergon or with his spiritual perspective and is only an issue, because some people are insisting on making it one. And let's be clear, the issue is THEIRS.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:17 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

Michael wrote:
Quit it with the Ergon bashing please!

Ergon's spiritual views are not relevant to his being a Moderator here. Do you know why? As a Moderator, his role is simply to help enforce the ALREADY EXISTING rules, policy and ethos of PMF, not write them. He is simply a member of staff doing a job and so far, I've had no complaints from the membership regarding his work.

I am wondering, were Ergon a professed Buddhist, Hindu or Catholic would there be such a fuss? I don't think so. And if it were the case that he were one of those, would it be a requirement that his fellow PMF members and staff also believe in his spiritual beliefs? Again, I don't think so. Therefore, if certain people are taking offence, then it is more a reflection of their own prejudice rather than any problem either with Ergon or with his spiritual perspective and is only an issue, because some people are insisting on making it one. And let's be clear, the issue is THEIRS.


Does this need reiterating? He doesn't just have spiritual beliefs, he thinks he is the messiah. That is not just a spiritual view. That goes WAY beyond that. He literally believes that. If Ergon was a Buddhist, Hindu, or Catholic, and thought he was the messiah, there WOULD be such a fuss.

This view by Ergon IS relevant to PMF if you actually care about PMF's integrity and credibility at all. Mods and Admins are not just posters, they are the face of PMF. Can you imagine if one of the FOAKers was proclaiming they were the messiah and moderated one of their boards? Oh I'm sure no one would ever use that against them. I wonder if Bruce Fischer said he was the messiah, you would just ignore it so as not to be overly prejudiced.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:33 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

What do you care? You don't even believe in God, you believe only in science, so what do you care what he believes he is?

And how are you so sure what Ergon LITERALLY believes? He sure doesn't appear to try and act like the messiah, does he?

And what do you care about PMF's 'integrity' and 'credibility', you were wanting to be 'deleted' the last time I heard from you, so again, what do you care?

Owners and Admins are the face of PMF...not Moderators. Bruce Fischer owns his own very vocal site campaigning for Knox and he represents IIP. Ergon owns no site connected with this case and is not on any case crusade, he merely posts here and helps me and the other staff Moderate this board, so your comparisson doesn't exist.

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Offline DanielSC


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:59 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

Michael wrote:
What do you care? You don't even believe in God, you believe only in science, so what do you care what he believes he is?

And how are you so sure what Ergon LITERALLY believes? He sure doesn't appear to try and act like the messiah, does he?

And what do you care about PMF's 'integrity' and 'credibility', you were wanting to be 'deleted' the last time I heard from you, so again, what do you care?

Owners and Admins are the face of PMF...not Moderators. Bruce Fischer owns his own very vocal site campaigning for Knox and he represents IIP. Ergon owns no site connected with this case and is not on any case crusade, he merely posts here and helps me and the other staff Moderate this board, so your comparisson doesn't exist.


Oh I see, so because Ergon doesn't "own" the site, his belief that he is the messiah is irrelevant. Ya that makes a lot of sense. No problems that the messiah is out promoting your site on twitter btw.

How do I know Ergon literally believes he is the messiah? Because that'swhat he wrote on his own website. Don't believe me? Here you go:


It's funny because Ergon could end this whole conversation by just saying "No, I am not the messiah". He hasn't done that of course.

Quote:
And what do you care about PMF's 'integrity' and 'credibility', you were wanting to be 'deleted' the last time I heard from you, so again, what do you care?


Well let's say I didn't care about PMF's integrity and credibility at all. It doesn't mean what I have said isn't true. When you have a mod parading around other websites claiming he is the second coming of Christ, ya that effects your site's credibility and integrity.

More to the point, the reason I asked for my account to be deleted was because I thought your FOAKer Tuesday was making the site look ridiculous and hurting its integrity. I DO care about PMF's credibility and integrity. Always have.

Quote:
You don't even believe in God, you believe only in science, so what do you care what he believes he is?


I can't remember a single instance when I said I didn't believe in God, or that I "only believe in science". I did say astrology is not science, which it is not. And the reason I do care about what he believes is because it reflects very badly to have this self professed messiah moderating PMF and promoting PMF as well.

Ergon could easily just end all this ballyhoo and say "no, don't be silly, I don't think I'm the second coming of Christ." Of course, he won't do that because he actually believes it.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:30 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

OK, DanielSC, you've had your say, at length, and having been over ruled, you were given the right of reply. You are now warned to stay on topic

In the course of your increasingly aggressive arguments about my personal spiritual beliefs you were given every opportunity to discuss it privately or refer it to the admin; instead you choose to carry out your personal beef on an open thread.

Since I could not arbitrate a matter that involved myself, I referred the matter to Michael, and he, as board admin, has now ruled. The matter is now closed.

I will address two unrelated statements you made here, and just for the record. This is not an invitation to argue further.

Yes, I sent you a condolence PM when you announced the death of your pet on .org. It was sent that way because I thought it was a private matter.

But you mention that in connection with "being fed lines". Now, I have no evidence or proof how you got my twitter inviting Nadeau and Vogt to drop by to meet us, but, since that was a one time twitter, only someone who was a follower or someone monitoring me could have got it and passed it on to you. I also note you did not deny it, but that is now irrelevant.

The fact that you objected to my contacting them was what struck me. You made an incorrect statement that it was against board rules. No, it's not.

But who has a fetish about access to Nadeau and Vogt? Who claims to speak for the Kerchers and what they felt about 'Michael's actions'?

And, for your information, I have proof that someone in that inner group fed personal and confidential information to someone as a way of discrediting others.

Therefore I have every reason to believe that the same has happened in regards to me. In a particularly disgusting example of the behaviour of partisans, someone on IIP revealed to every one there that I had autistic children. Then they excused that by saying "it's information he published on his website". No, they are not excused, nor is anyone on this side who does similar things to try to discredit me by bringing up my personal situation or views.

Nor will I ever, or have I ever, discussed them here.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:39 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

That seems rather a general statement. It doesn't mean he is literally those people, it means he walks in the path of those peoples teachings and that is a very common kind of language you'll see from people who walk in the path of initiation and spiritual enlightenment. What it means, in the vernacular, is that he is a teacher of the spiritual path that he has followed...nothing more. Your problem, is your literal interpretation. You are stepping into the world of the spiritual and esoteric now, not literal scientific.

Nobody has said Astrology IS science, only that it is 'A' science, that works by its own rules.

You know, there is a belief that we are all one, all being a part of God. Under that system, it means that I am you and you are me and we are all each other, including Jesus. And if Ergon believes that, then his belief is in line with well established religions such as Buddhism.

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Offline DanielSC


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:49 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

Michael wrote:
That seems rather a general statement. It doesn't mean he is literally those people, it means he walks in the path of those peoples teachings and that is a very common kind of language you'll see from people who walk in the path of initiation and spiritual enlightenment. What it means, in the vernacular, is that he is a teacher of the spiritual path that he has followed...nothing more. Your problem, is your literal interpretation. You are stepping into the world of the spiritual and esoteric now, not literal scientific.

Nobody has said Astrology IS science, only that it is 'A' science, that works by its own rules.

You know, there is a belief that we are all one, all being a part of God. Under that system, it means that I am you and you are me and we are all each other, including Jesus. And if Ergon believes that, then his belief is in line with well established religions such as Buddhism.


That's a nice interpretation, of course he does mean it literally. He doesn't want to talk about it here because he knows its true. Rather than have it discussed out in the open, he would rather me receive cowardly little private warnings in my inbox.

Quote:
What it means, in the vernacular, is that he is a teacher of the spiritual path that he has followed...nothing more.


These are your words, not our resident Messiah Ergon's. "Nothing more" indeed.

This is very simple. Ergon can just say "That is what I mean by it, yes Michael". You know why he won't do that? Because he thinks he's literally the messiah. The second coming of Christ. The "chosen one" if you will. And your kind attempt in parsing his words won't change that.

Seriously Michael, you're better than this. There's no reason to be this charlatan's little lapdog. He's making a fool out of you.
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Offline DanielSC


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:54 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

Ergon wrote:
OK, DanielSC, you've had your say, at length, and having been over ruled, you were given the right of reply. You are now warned to stay on topic

In the course of your increasingly aggressive arguments about my personal spiritual beliefs you were given every opportunity to discuss it privately or refer it to the admin; instead you choose to carry out your personal beef on an open thread.

Since I could not arbitrate a matter that involved myself, I referred the matter to Michael, and he, as board admin, has now ruled. The matter is now closed.

I will address two unrelated statements you made here, and just for the record. This is not an invitation to argue further.

Yes, I sent you a condolence PM when you announced the death of your pet on .org. It was sent that way because I thought it was a private matter.

But you mention that in connection with "being fed lines". Now, I have no evidence or proof how you got my twitter inviting Nadeau and Vogt to drop by to meet us, but, since that was a one time twitter, only someone who was a follower or someone monitoring me could have got it and passed it on to you. I also note you did not deny it, but that is now irrelevant.

The fact that you objected to my contacting them was what struck me. You made an incorrect statement that it was against board rules. No, it's not.

But who has a fetish about access to Nadeau and Vogt? Who claims to speak for the Kerchers and what they felt about 'Michael's actions'?

And, for your information, I have proof that someone in that inner group fed personal and confidential information to someone as a way of discrediting others.

Therefore I have every reason to believe that the same has happened in regards to me. In a particularly disgusting example of the behaviour of partisans, someone on IIP revealed to every one there that I had autistic children. Then they excused that by saying "it's information he published on his website". No, they are not excused, nor is anyone on this side who does similar things to try to discredit me by bringing up my personal situation or views.

Nor will I ever, or have I ever, discussed them here.


I found your twitter account after looking at your website. Get over it. Maybe you can you use some of your messianic healing powers to figure out what really goes on behind the scenes.

Quote:
only someone who was a follower or someone monitoring me could have got it and passed it on to you


Wrong! Anyone can find your twitter feed. How long have you used the internet?

Anyways, your refusal to simply say you're not the second coming.....well, what can I say? Interesting.

And here's some advice. If you don't want people talking about what you write about yourself on other sites, stop cross referencing your posts from your blog here.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:06 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

DanielSC wrote:
That's a nice interpretation, of course he does mean it literally. He doesn't want to talk about it here because he knows its true. Rather than have it discussed out in the open, he would rather me receive cowardly little private warnings in my inbox.


Don't be silly! :)


DanielSC wrote:
These are your words, not our resident Messiah Ergon's. "Nothing more" indeed.



The words of one that has a little bit of experience with the esoteric and spiritual, to one that doesn't have a clue. There is a language here, one that you don't understand how to speak.


DanielSC wrote:
Seriously Michael, you're better than this. There's no reason to be this charlatan's little lapdog. He's making a fool out of you.


Warch your language! Whatever your personal opinion of him may be, he is still a member of staff here.

I've asked you once, I won't ask you again...stop the flames.

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Offline DanielSC


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:22 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

Michael wrote:
DanielSC wrote:
That's a nice interpretation, of course he does mean it literally. He doesn't want to talk about it here because he knows its true. Rather than have it discussed out in the open, he would rather me receive cowardly little private warnings in my inbox.


Don't be silly! :)


DanielSC wrote:
These are your words, not our resident Messiah Ergon's. "Nothing more" indeed.



The words of one that has a little bit of experience with the esoteric and spiritual, to one that doesn't have a clue. There is a language here, one that you don't understand how to speak.


DanielSC wrote:
Seriously Michael, you're better than this. There's no reason to be this charlatan's little lapdog. He's making a fool out of you.


Warch your language! Whatever your personal opinion of him may be, he is still a member of staff here.

I've asked you once, I won't ask you again...stop the flames.


But he is making a fool out of you. He's watching you parse his words and not interjecting at all. Like I said, he can confirm that what you're saying is how it should be understood and there woudl be nothing left to talk about. But of course he hasn't, and he won't, because he thinks he's the second coming of Christ.

Quote:
There is a language here, one that you don't understand how to speak.


That's nice of you to say and vouch for your friend like this. But it would be a little more compelling coming from the horse's mouth in this instance. Again, he thinks he's the messiah, the chosen one.

I stand by what I said. He's a charlatan and is making a fool out of you. I don't begrudge it against you. You're defending him out of kindness, but at some point you need to stop letting him take advantage of you and just have him speak for himself (and of course, stop giving me cowardly private warnings in my inbox and hash it out like a true messiah on the thread here).

His refusal to actually clarify what he means by his messianic proclamations are pathetic and cowardly. He feels free to post his spiritual/astrology mumbo jumbo all the time. You'd think he'd see it as a teaching moment, but he'd rather just brush it under the rug and not talk about some of the more embarrassing assertions he's made....like where he claims to be the messiah.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:30 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

DanielSC wrote:
But he is making a fool out of you. He's watching you parse his words and not interjecting at all. Like I said, he can confirm that what you're saying is how it should be understood and there woudl be nothing left to talk about. But of course he hasn't, and he won't, because he thinks he's the second coming of Christ.


No, he's standing back because I've stepped in. And I've stepped in because people couldn't play nicely and things have gotten out of control.

DanielSC wrote:
That's nice of you to say and vouch for your friend like this. But it would be a little more compelling coming from the horse's mouth in this instance. Again, he thinks he's the messiah, the chosen one.

His refusal to actually clarify what he means by his messianic proclamations are pathetic and cowardly. He feels free to post his spiritual/astrology mumbo jumbo all the time. You'd think he'd see it as a teaching moment, but he'd rather just brush it under the rug and not talk about some of the more embarrassing assertions he's made....like where he claims to be the messiah.


And I say again, you are being daft. NOWHERE have I seen him behaving as though he thinks he is the messiah and neither can you indicate it in his behaviour to date. There's a reason for that.

Ergon doesn't HAVE to clarify anything to YOU, he is not directly answerable to YOU...do you understand me? The flames stop.

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Offline DanielSC


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:40 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

Michael wrote:
DanielSC wrote:
But he is making a fool out of you. He's watching you parse his words and not interjecting at all. Like I said, he can confirm that what you're saying is how it should be understood and there woudl be nothing left to talk about. But of course he hasn't, and he won't, because he thinks he's the second coming of Christ.


No, he's standing back because I've stepped in. And I've stepped in because people couldn't play nicely and things have gotten out of control.

DanielSC wrote:
That's nice of you to say and vouch for your friend like this. But it would be a little more compelling coming from the horse's mouth in this instance. Again, he thinks he's the messiah, the chosen one.

His refusal to actually clarify what he means by his messianic proclamations are pathetic and cowardly. He feels free to post his spiritual/astrology mumbo jumbo all the time. You'd think he'd see it as a teaching moment, but he'd rather just brush it under the rug and not talk about some of the more embarrassing assertions he's made....like where he claims to be the messiah.


And I say again, you are being daft. NOWHERE have I seen him behaving as though he thinks he is the messiah and neither can you indicate it in his behaviour to date. There's a reason for that.

Ergon doesn't HAVE to clarify anything to YOU, he is not directly answerable to YOU...do you understand me? The flames stop.


Things got a little too hot for Ergon huh? Didn't like someone actually questioning that he was the messiah? Things have gotten out of control because he's being incredibly cowardly. He refuses to be accountable for claiming he is the second coming. He could easily have stepped in and dispelled any notion about this, but instead he'd rather have you come up and save him and forward cowardly warnings in my inbox.

Quote:
NOWHERE have I seen him behaving as though he thinks he is the messiah and neither can you indicate it in his behaviour to date.


I agree, he certainly doesn't exhibit what you'd expect in a messiah. However, I think the bit on his website where he directly states he is the messiah....well, I think I've just proven you wrong where you claim I can't indicate it in his behavior to date. Certainly one saying they are the messiah is behaving as if you think you are the messiah. That's indisputable really.


picture of a pumpkin
You have been Warned by a Moderator
Reason: You couldn't just let it go! This flame has earned you a formal warning.


Note
You have been BANNED!!
Reason: Since I see you have already had multiple formal warnings on this issue, I have also issued you with a temporary ban of ONE MONTH. This was not permanent because of your previous good faith conduct on PMF.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:31 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

Not that I want to add to this, but DanielSC seems reluctant to fight with me on my website, he wants to fight HERE.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:35 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

Well, nobody is fighting 'here', I'll make sure of that.

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:27 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

Now we can get back on topic, here's a recap:

Astrology is a valid field of study and body of knowledge based on natural science.

Neutral researchers have come up with interesting data that seem to confirm its worth as a tool in understanding human potential. Psychologists like Jung studied and accepted it even as they tried to adapt it for western minds.

I wrote articles, reproduced in full here, which came up with a more complex understanding of the psychology of Knox, Sollecito and Guede. The other one is What Might Have Been-A Spiritual Perspective at viewtopic.php?f=1&t=372

There's another one "The Criminal Mind" you can find here. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=369

I also came up with a perspective about their relationship with each other and the crime scenario, and it was Astrology that gave me the logical framework to warn people before October 3 that Knox and Sollecito might be acquitted and the background to the Hellmann decision.

I offer this as a form of knowledge, and welcome debate on the subject at hand.
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Offline daisysteiner


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:34 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

If I don't post this, I'll actually curl up and die...

Ergon's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy!

...I'll get my coat.

Some other stuff was here but isn't now because it was off topic


Last edited by daisysteiner on Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:28 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

Well, I did post on .org about astrology, quite a few times, and there were a few people who said they didn't believe in it, and more than a few who sent me congratulatory PM's about bringing up a different perspective, but didn't want to say so or they'd get flamed by the few.

All people have to do is ask politely, and I'm happy to answer any question. In the appropriate forum.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:07 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

daisysteiner wrote:
What DanielSC just did is the same as Cape going for a moan on .org and getting banned for it. Cape should have kept her thoughts over here and Skep shouldn't have banned her for having an opinion.


Actually Daisy, Cape did keep her thoughts over 'here', it was because of what she posted here (presumably) that she was banned on .org. She didn't post at all on .org, let alone "go for a moan" there.

daistsyeiner wrote:
Equally, Daniel should have the decency to walk away if he doesn't agree with the OP and Michael shouldn't have banned him for having an opinion.


I had no choice, he'd had four formal warnings by that point. If you don't act on those, then formal warnings would be meaningless around here, so my hand was forced really. And it wasn't his expressing his 'opinions' I had a problem with, 'opinions' are fine. But it wasn't simply opinions, they were confrontational flames...personal attacks and insults. And in addition, how many times did they need to be restated? We'd heard his 'opinion', did we need to hear it over and over? Even after all that, I didn't ban him, which I would have been in my rights to do...he merely got a suspension.

daisysteiner wrote:
and Daniel isn't IP blocked as far as I know.


Yes, a month suspension only. And no, he's not IP blocked, it's on his username only.

Now I've cleared that up, lest I drag this thread off-topic, I'll now retreat :)

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Offline daisysteiner


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:00 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

Hey Michael and Ergon

Apologies to Cape. Totally misunderstood that :)

I understand it was a tone thing not a message thing. I think it was the tone that pissed me off. I understand the follow through on the warning too. Shame the temp ban has been taken te wrong way. We're all different and it's good that all points of view are taken into account. As I say, Ergon posted in the right place, I have no issue with that. In fact I like to see the debate into a different aspect of things and I'm open minded enough for that. I'm just not a fan of astrology as a general rule. I'll read a post though and give it a fair chance to change my mind. If it doesn't, I'll keep that to myself.

Bah more drama that I've dragged myself into, sorry. Delete posts Ergon m'dear, keep this on topic, I'll do the first one if you'll shift this one after you've read it :)

I'm keeping the joke tho :)
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:35 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

By all means, keep the joke, daisysteiner, one can never have enough of them ;)
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:39 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

Ergon, I don't know about the rest of us, but I have so little knowledge about this subject, that I barely know where to start. My questions may appear foolish, or at least un-informed, but I do have a certain curiousity about this.
For one thing, I know a few nurses who work in the Psychiatric ward of our hospital.
They all swear that the full moon influences the behavior of the patients.
Do you feel this is true? Is it a myth? Does this question seem foolish?
I'd really like to know if you have an opinion about this.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:42 am   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

That's a good question, Napia5, much asked in the past. From a recent study: http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/ ... statistics

"And that's it. Now you have the tools to answer the original question, because when the p-value is smaller than the significance level, we can say with some statistical confidence that crime rates go up when there's a full moon.

Applying these methods to their data, the researchers found there was a significant difference between the number of crimes committed when there was a full moon and the number of crimes on other nights: their p-value was much smaller than 0.001 (usually written as p<0.001). This means there was less than a 0.1% chance of the full moon and non-full moon crime rates actually being the same, despite the numbers that were observed in this particular analysis.

In other words, the researchers showed that if they were to repeat this analysis over and over again, say every year, they'd expect to get a difference in the number of crimes between nights with a full moon and non-full moon most of the time.

The strict statistical interpretation of what a significance test tells us is actually a little more subtle and is often misunderstood, but for now this explanation is just fine. (I'll cover "confidence intervals" in a later post.)"

In other words, yes, crimes do go up during the full moon, with lots of corroborating evidence from police blotters and hospital nurses.

But, here's an interesting twist: Amanda Knox was born the day before a full moon (within the orb of influence) Meredith Kercher, the day after one, and Knox met Raffaele Sollecito on the eve of a full moon. Hmm.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:25 am   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

Thanks, Ergon. Interesting, to say the least. Your last sentence, of course, leads me to a question: (I wish they would make a smilie for "I have a question), it would save me lots of typing.
Anyway. It seems the full moon does effect the crime rate, and as I have said, patients suffering from mental illnesses.
In your last sentence, you point out the differing birthdays of Knox, Sollecito , and Meredith Kercher.
Do you see in your studies that the full moon effects only negatively?
I know there's probably no real way to track this, but what about positive effects?
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 5:24 am   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

Hi, Napia5. Astrology charts both the positive and the negative, and each aspect can be expressed both ways. Someone born on the full moon can be empathetic and gifted, like Meredith Kercher, or have deep inner conflicts, like Amanda Knox. Those born on the full moon also have a strong connection with their mothers, for good or bad. That is why I have been specualting about the relationship between Knox and her mother. What we do know about Kercher is that she did, indeed, have a wonderful relationship with her mother Arlene.

And I speculated about how Amanda secretly craved Meredith's approval and attention, and was humiliated when she didn't receive it.

I wish those who criticise astrology do so with a little bit of knowledge first before they try to say what it's about.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:07 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

Trolling and in-fighting certainly goes up on PMF on a full moon...I can tell you that.

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:34 pm   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

Seeing as how my predilection for astrology gets me in so much hot water :) I should state it is only purely a coincidence that Clander, who is reputed to be a Capricorn, as am I, should have thrown such a bomb at PMF, as did I?

(And that perhaps staff should not be sniping at each other, eh, Clander? ;)

And speaking of coincidences, the fact that both Meredith Kercher and Amanda Knox were born during a full moon, and that Knox and Sollecito met on a full moon? Hmm.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:13 am   Post subject: Re: A Psycho-Astrological Perspective   

Speaking of coincidences again, Perugia Homicide Superintendent Monica Napoleoni was born on November 01, 1963, the anniversary of the murder, and that was right on a full moon as well.
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