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XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 - SEPT 22, 11

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

The judge is my friend!

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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

THE LATEST BREAKING NEWS

Nick Pisa in Rome
3:51PM BST 09 Sep 2011

Amanda Knox says 'they finally believe me' over murder of Meredith Kercher

Jailed Amanda Knox on Friday spoke of her relief that ''finally they believe'' me as hopes rise for her and her family that she will be cleared of the murder of Meredith Kercher.

THE TELEGRAPH

----------------------------------

Being the accomplished liar that she is, she doesn't stop at just one untruth. :roll:
Obviously determined to escape a murder conviction.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

I think it's worth remembering at this point, a fact of the Italian system Yummi informed us of (quote a long time ago now). In Italy, in the main trial, the court takes on the persona of strict parents. In the appeals, it takes on the character of a kindly uncle. It's an analogy of course, but is a good one for how the system works. Of course, it doesn't mean the 'kindly uncle' is going to find you innocent...they are simply giving you every chance to demonstrate that the case against you has no merit and you didn't do it, as the appeal is the last chance saloon. After all, despite the FOAKer propaganda, the Italian system doesn't actually 'want' you to be guilty...they want you to be innocent. Their whole mentality is based on an ethos of healing people...rehabilitation and compensation...not punishing people and vengeance. And one has to only remember, when Knox and Sollicito were convicted in their trial...the judges in tears. Nobody is 'out to get them'.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

guermantes wrote:
THE LATEST BREAKING NEWS

Nick Pisa in Rome
3:51PM BST 09 Sep 2011

Amanda Knox says 'they finally believe me' over murder of Meredith Kercher

Jailed Amanda Knox on Friday spoke of her relief that ''finally they believe'' me as hopes rise for her and her family that she will be cleared of the murder of Meredith Kercher.

THE TELEGRAPH

----------------------------------

Being the accomplished liar that she is, she doesn't stop at just one untruth. :roll:
Obviously determined to escape a murder conviction.


Oops. Is that what she thinks it all means? The court didn't want to re-test the knife...and that means the court believes her?

Actually, to be honest, I'm now a little worried for her. If the court upholds the conviction, it'll hit her twice as hard if she's now built up this level expectation...

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"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

From Nick Pisa's report for the Telegraph (I know, I know it's ONLY Nick Pisa, but...):

"In an interview with local newspaper il Messaggero through her lawyer Luciano Ghirga, Knox said:''Finally they believe me. I always knew that I would make it. I hope that I will be back home in the United States for Thanksgiving Day.

''It's great to know that at last they don't hate me any more, that they are not looking at me as if I am guilty, although not all of them believe me, some still want to hurt me and I don't understand why."

''During the first trial I was so afraid to go in the witness box, there was such a hostile atmosphere, every time I spoke and cried as I tried to explain that I had nothing to do with what happened that night, I could tell people were laughing bemusedly and shrugging their shoulders. Now it's all changed.''

When asked what her biggest secret was Knox replied:''I'm going to whisper it because I still don't believe it, because I'm still scared it could all change at the last minute, that they could still find me guilty.

''Ok I will tell you. My secret is that I always believed I would get out of jail, where my life had frozen, after getting the truth to emerge.''

---------------------------------------------

Yeah Amanda, we know you have a "Chamber Of Secrets" that you guard so well. And it's alright as long as you stay in jail. You plan to make a buck off of your "private secrets", heh?

I don't know about anyone else, but that really gets my blood boiingl! .. .m-))
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Offline SqueakEMouse


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
guermantes wrote:
THE LATEST BREAKING NEWS

Nick Pisa in Rome
3:51PM BST 09 Sep 2011

Amanda Knox says 'they finally believe me' over murder of Meredith Kercher

Jailed Amanda Knox on Friday spoke of her relief that ''finally they believe'' me as hopes rise for her and her family that she will be cleared of the murder of Meredith Kercher.

THE TELEGRAPH

----------------------------------

Being the accomplished liar that she is, she doesn't stop at just one untruth. :roll:
Obviously determined to escape a murder conviction.


Oops. Is that what she thinks it all means? The court didn't want to re-test the knife...and that means the court believes her?

Actually, to be honest, I'm now a little worried for her. If the court upholds the conviction, it'll hit her twice as hard if she's now built up this level expectation...



I think she is quick to fall for the ever over-optimistic propaganda and assurances that her family churn out. Assuming the appeal upholds the conviction, she may rue the day that she didn't simply go with the down to earth realism that was probably coming from her lawyers. Bisocotti played the system for Guede and he has the shortest sentence. If water fails to run uphill and the political and media machinations of the families fail to deliver, then for both of them there will most likely be a heavy layer of resentment building up for the future.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

The same theme - Amanda hopes to be home for Thanksgiving - echoed by two more articles published on the web, with slight variations.

REUTERS

AFP
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Offline SqueakEMouse


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

guermantes wrote:
From Nick Pisa's report for the Telegraph (I know, I know it's ONLY Nick Pisa, but...):

"In an interview with local newspaper il Messaggero through her lawyer Luciano Ghirga, Knox said:''Finally they believe me. I always knew that I would make it. I hope that I will be back home in the United States for Thanksgiving Day.

''It's great to know that at last they don't hate me any more, that they are not looking at me as if I am guilty, although not all of them believe me, some still want to hurt me and I don't understand why."

''During the first trial I was so afraid to go in the witness box, there was such a hostile atmosphere, every time I spoke and cried as I tried to explain that I had nothing to do with what happened that night, I could tell people were laughing bemusedly and shrugging their shoulders. Now it's all changed.''

When asked what her biggest secret was Knox replied:''I'm going to whisper it because I still don't believe it, because I'm still scared it could all change at the last minute, that they could still find me guilty.

''Ok I will tell you. My secret is that I always believed I would get out of jail, where my life had frozen, after getting the truth to emerge.''

---------------------------------------------

Yeah Amanda, we know you have a "Chamber Of Secrets" that you guard so well. And it's alright as long as you stay in jail. You plan to make a buck off of your "private secrets", heh?

I don't know about anyone else, but that really gets my blood boiingl! .. .m-))



''Ok I will tell you. My secret is that I always believed I would get out of jail, where my life had frozen, after getting the truth to emerge.''

There may be an ironic truth in this statement. She acts as though she really does believe that ultimately she can fool everybody else, that her acting and presentation really does convince. That there really is NO EVIDENCE. That at the last hurdle she will clear with flying colours and just 'get on with her life' as planned. That consequences do not happen. You really can just walk away physically as much as she does mentally from her actions. That people really DO believe the things she says even when they conflict with observable reality. Her antics in court are not just inappropriate and insensitive, they suggest a degree of self belief that reaches self delusion.

Hey 100 posts! Where's my bumper sticker?
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:38 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

AMANDA KNOX: "THE TRUTH WILL EMERGE"

Clander wrote:

http://www.libero-news.it/news/818162/C%20...%20parla.html

AK via her lawyer:

"Mi dispiace Per Patrick Lumumba, non ho capito cosa mi sia preso, avevo paura, ero disorientata: è vero, ho mentito, ma non ricordo perché."

"I'm sorry for Patrick Lumumba. I don't know what got into me, I was scared, I was disoriented: it's true, I lied, but I do not remember why."

Posted by Clander: Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:43 pm
------------------------------------------

Hmm, she now admits she lied. The truth is the "ugly" truth isn't pretty! The best truth she can remember? Again???
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:38 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

guermantes wrote:
AMANDA KNOX: "THE TRUTH WILL EMERGE"

Clander wrote:

http://www.libero-news.it/news/818162/C%20...%20parla.html

AK via her lawyer:

"Mi dispiace Per Patrick Lumumba, non ho capito cosa mi sia preso, avevo paura, ero disorientata: è vero, ho mentito, ma non ricordo perché."

"I'm sorry for Patrick Lumumba. I don't know what got into me, I was scared, I was disoriented: it's true, I lied, but I do not remember why."

Posted by Clander: Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:43 pm
------------------------------------------

Hmm, she now admits she lied. The truth is the "ugly" truth isn't pretty! The best truth she can remember? Again???



THIS is the important part:

Quote:
it's true, I lied, but I do not remember why



It's a case of "Oops, don't know why I did that". Well, wait minute...I thought the reason was clear...she was harranged by the cops and they put the idea into her head. NOW she doesn't know why she did it or how the idea got there...Mamma mia.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Let me just say, the fact she lied has never been in dispute...she's always admitted what she said about Patrick wasn't true (which makes it a lie). What is new, is now she claims she doesn't know WHY she lied. Think about that.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:29 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

For four years, the FOAKers have been telling us why she lied (the 'best truth' they could think of). Now, she turns around and says she doesn't know why.

But...WHY the sudden change about? Could it be, that she has bought all the hype that she could be acquitted, so now she's preparing a retraction and be all apologetic so she doesn't have to face the prison time that may come with another calunnia conviction (her upcoming one)? I mean, what a bummer that would be if she's acquitted of the murder and then finds she has to do extra time for falsely accusing the cops...

The cynic in me asks...why this sudden announcement by her...how's it to her advantage? If it isn't, then why make it?

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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

I believe Amanda made that statement, as she knows it is a sticking point.By *trying* to take responsibility, she hopes to sway the judges into thinking she is worthy of redemption.

Just another manipulative ploy...trying to * make amends* for accusing an innocent man. That false accusation caused huge dislike for her, and her attorneys know it. So, oh, I was disorientated ( didn't know she was in a police station??)'

Trying to make reparition, re : Patrick. See, what a nice person really. Look, she's showing remorse. OK, now you can aquit her.

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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

guermantes wrote:
AMANDA KNOX: "THE TRUTH WILL EMERGE"

Clander wrote:

http://www.libero-news.it/news/818162/C%20...%20parla.html

AK via her lawyer:

"Mi dispiace Per Patrick Lumumba, non ho capito cosa mi sia preso, avevo paura, ero disorientata: è vero, ho mentito, ma non ricordo perché."

"I'm sorry for Patrick Lumumba. I don't know what got into me, I was scared, I was disoriented: it's true, I lied, but I do not remember why."

Posted by Clander: Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:43 pm
------------------------------------------

Hmm, she now admits she lied. The truth is the "ugly" truth isn't pretty! The best truth she can remember? Again???


She doesn't remember why she lied? She feels like her life is on hold now that the truth has come out? Is she nuts? She really needs to go back to remaining silent.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael, she can't say she lied because the police 'hit her head' again stup-)
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

It is then, in some people's case, not a thing where I or anyone here much needs to stop consider and be so nice to some types of other people ,because some other types just do NOT care, so, I could say and often do, hey, they'll have to live with themselves,

u know, imagining they might have a hard time living with themselves but not just Knox and Sollecito seem genuinely...... NoT sorry, they are not the only ones.

If the pair of them ever doubted their own minds, well hey they've got singalong Don, Teflon Don, he's not one person but a group of people who if not gone out of their minds being related to let's say Knox through their inability to accept anything, like in as far as even if she were to admit it they'd say now hush your mouth, you know you wasn't there are otherwise like some type of parasite drsn to the smell of something through their own likely disturbed mental states.

so I see Knox in a real far fetched scenario sort of almost letting on properly to her parents and them saying, no that's not right you did thins and you did that

and I can just picture Knox readjusting her versions, in her head and saying to herself, well. you killed Meredith but these people say you didn't so right, let me get my version straight, i really have so many

she sounds like Alice in Wonderland talking to the Mad Hatter, after she'd not had some kind of mushroom but some bad acid

Well, it's really hard to say, said Alice, before, I thought I was big but now I feel so small,

the caterpillar coughed, removing the hookah intake plug from his bubbled lips, what, what's that, he was none other than Sollecito, yes, he said, my family, remind me of yours

denial is not in Egypt

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

what a dark bitch Knox is, I was going to say that I had intended to say, I was going to say,
just now, a dark horse, but, I 'd be lying,
I can only think dark bitch,
because what she does is so depraved,

this trying to make it seem like the only reason she is locked away, is because everyone hated her, according to her they were secretly laughing at her, but the fact is, she is the one who does that shit, openly and secretly.

Reason she is locked up is because the evidence, all of it, shows she is as guilty as sin.

Again, that she has the audacity, to walk into court dressed in a silk blouse, no bra, and also doing those stretchy-wetches of hers, ones that make her breasts stick out, where she puts her outstretched arms behind her, right there in court, well the cop stood right in front of her didn't appear to be amused with her at all!

Somehow, everything is about physicality with her, where we would say narrrrrrr, she wouldn't do that, like think that she could use her looks to try to influence people, maybe even the judge, Dott. Hellmann,
by parading her tits around the place,
well, it's sad, but she does somehow really think she can influence people like that.

She has a choice of clothes, she is not in prison in Southern Sudan, what a fucked up, twisted witch.

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Last edited by zorba on Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline stint7


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:37 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Ergon wrote:
Michael, she can't say she lied because the police 'hit her head' again stup-)


That's Fer' sure, Fer' sure.

If she "can't imagine" why she lied, try spending a few hours at JREF.

The fanatical FOAKers there have made up about 65,000 excuses for her lies such as:

1) 53 straight hours of water board third world head slapping by dozens of Interrogators and no piss breaks
2) All kinds of psycho babble and fancy sounding false memory muck.
3) Childhood problems of Mom marrying boy toy who called her a shithead.

Others observe:

1) Pathological classic liars always revert to what they do best
2 Narcissistic people always think they can do anything and get away with it.
3) She is from See-aahh-til and everybody there is quirky.
4) Chris says she once jumped in a mud puddle and MadPax says she bought a cup of coffee for a stranger. Therefore she is entitled to lie.


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Offline max


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:42 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

She probably doesn't remember testifying either :roll:
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Offline Tiziano


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:45 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 - exams for Raffaele   

[url=http://www.umbrialeft.it/notizie/meredith-vista-della-sentenza-raffaele-sollecito-studia-esame-università]RSExam[/url]

Raffaele will be doing a written examination in his information science specialisation next week in the Terni prison.

His father says that he hopes to go to Verona as a free man if he passes and goes on to the oral exam.

''Questa volta spero di andarci da libero...'' ha detto al padre Francesco. ''L'ho trovato sereno - ha spiegato quest'ultimo - ma comunque con i piedi per terra'

"This time I hope to go there as a free [man]..." he said to his father Francesco.
"I found him [to be] serene - the latter explained - but with his feet on the ground, however."
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 2:03 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

It is the juxtaposition of examples of good that contrast so clearly when laid beside the dungheap.

I already said "what drew me to the case", but it is this, that keeps me here: The dignity of the Kerchers contrasted by the lack of dignity and respect shown by the Amanders. If there is anything I can do to give them peace after so losing their daughter I would do so, and one way we can do that is to fight for justice to be given to them.

And after that I will also pray for the redemption of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito. That can only happen if they pay for the crime they did. Otherwise, they will have learned nothing.

On a more personal note to everyone, we all have crises of faith, but, we will also always have, hope.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 2:42 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

capealadin wrote:
I want so much to thank everyone again, but I'm worried I'll start to seem like an arse creeper :)

I also know Michael, how much effort and time you're putting in, and I need to know you're OK, and not overdoing it.

Lovely to see * Old faces * :) and their great input. Yes, Ava, Nell, Max. Et al. And, the great stalwarts, Stint, Zorba, Jester, Jackie (kiss) , and my adorable Nicki. And, TIZIANO.

Just got home, and lots of interesting posts. Scanned, and will now read them carefully.


Hi, Cape! I'm sorry I missed this one! Makes me think I should have looked you up this summer! Any chance you'll be near La Jolla in December? ;-)


Last edited by Jackie on Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 2:45 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
For four years, the FOAKers have been telling us why she lied (the 'best truth' they could think of). Now, she turns around and says she doesn't know why.

But...WHY the sudden change about? Could it be, that she has bought all the hype that she could be acquitted, so now she's preparing a retraction and be all apologetic so she doesn't have to face the prison time that may come with another calunnia conviction (her upcoming one)? I mean, what a bummer that would be if she's acquitted of the murder and then finds she has to do extra time for falsely accusing the cops...

The cynic in me asks...why this sudden announcement by her...how's it to her advantage? If it isn't, then why make it?


Trying to undermine efforts to prove that she had the requisite mens rea for the offence?
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:23 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

guermantes wrote:
Kermit's translation of an article from Corriere Della Sera, available online at

http://archiviostorico.corriere.it/2011%20...%208034.shtml
...
Giulia Bongiorno, Raffaele Sollecito's defence lawyer: "They were opposed to the expert review at the end of the first hearing, and now they want another. Personally, I have never doubted being able to get an acquittal."


But you can bet money that she's seriously doubted whether she should "get an acquittal."

My criminal court experience is limited, but I never once failed to wonder whether the ends of Justice were served when I managed to keep a client accused of a violent crime from having to serve jail time.

I'd have my doubts from time to time as we prepared for trial, but the serious doubts would always hit me when it was all said and done.

The things they tell you...

The things they omit...

I loved the drama of criminal law but I realized I just couldn't continue down that road. Despite FOA rumors to the contrary, there really aren't a lot of wrongfully accused sweethearts out there.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:54 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

guermantes wrote:
AMANDA KNOX: "THE TRUTH WILL EMERGE"

Clander wrote:

http://www.libero-news.it/news/818162/C%20...%20parla.html

AK via her lawyer:

"Mi dispiace Per Patrick Lumumba, non ho capito cosa mi sia preso, avevo paura, ero disorientata: è vero, ho mentito, ma non ricordo perché."

"I'm sorry for Patrick Lumumba. I don't know what got into me, I was scared, I was disoriented: it's true, I lied, but I do not remember why."

Posted by Clander: Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:43 pm
------------------------------------------

Hmm, she now admits she lied. The truth is the "ugly" truth isn't pretty! The best truth she can remember? Again???

There is more in that article. For example, the title is about Rudy:
"The confessions of Knox: Rudy knows everything and does not speak"

But then in the article itself Rudy is only mentioned in the last sentence:
"But Rudy does not tell the truth, he knows what happened, but he never really wanted to say."

Not so smart to say you know exactly what your partner in crime knows and when he is lying.
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 5:24 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Hi Jackie...

I keep thinking you can't up your avatars, and then....Bingo. Another winner:)

Where will I be in December? I 'm not sure. it's my Birthday that month, so maybe Vegas, maybe Seattle, visiting Mum, or...maybe in La Jolla :) :)

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 6:18 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

I must again, try to illuminate on dress, time and place.

Of course people should be able to wear what they like, but, there are some types of clothing that go with certain jobs, one wouldn't want or expect to see the police wearing bathing costumes, the doctor just about to do the open heart surgery bit on YOU, dressed up not in a sterile robe but instead looking like she was ready to do a lap dance, mini-skirted, lots of jewelry, or in the case of a man, someone dressed in a hoody, Hawaiian shirt and a gold chain around his neck with a 12 inch clock attached to it.

So, Amanda Knox, indeed can wear whatever she likes without considering anything at all, but, I'd say there are different reasons why not only her but everyone else needs to consider things conservatively, when up on serious charges.

In the female position, it is not about women not being free or discriminated, it is about the very opposite, because if one draws attention to sexuality and in the case of women, female curves, it is definitely a possible sign that the wearer thereof, might imagine that through drawing attention to these elements, physical attributes, one might be able to affect the outcome of proceedings, but, considering that one ought to respect those in court presiding over these matters of life and death, it is thought that one should think highly of them, of the judge(s) and not insult his/her intelligence, by even leaving the possibility for him/her to think that you may not respect his/her intelligence, because if you do respect that level of intelligence, a level that should see to it to make the kind of judgements that only a proper judge is able to do and then officially, you cannot disrespect these people by anything or in any way, allowing the possibility that anyone might think that you think you could influence them, because to think you could, means you think they are thick.

And that is why, the insult to the intellect, is the thing that the issue is about.

The insult involves not assuming that the judge is honest.

In these matters the judge has to be above all of the ordinary considerations, after all, they the judges are deciding on other people's futures.

One is supposed to assume that one is in good hands, ones that will be fair.

If the judge were to be influenced, just through appearances, because you, let's say as a female, dress in a way that does draw attention to feminine curves, then the idea that you may be thinking you might be able to influence the judge in that way means you do not assume that the judge is intelligent and you think of him/her as having no integrity.

The idea that the judge would realise this angle, is the reason one should never allow such a misunderstanding, unless, you are plain stupid, or you do not care, and this because you TRULY ARE trying to influence matters, at such a low level.

That is an insult to your very own intelligence.

The way to go is to realise the seriousness of court and that it demands a sterile approach, one free of anything that would detract from the issues at hand/cause bias,

not just to make sure that the judge remains neutral and fair and treats you correctly where matters very complicated must be examined.
A lady's business suit, which does not necessarily mean trousers, but not untidy and not casual, not when you are on trial, is the way to go, this because you do not WANT anyone judging you by appearances, or and you do not want anyone thinking that the judge would stoop so low as to be unprofessional, you do not want the judge thinking that you think this of him/her.

Therefore, my take on this, is that Knox really does it on purpose, and the reason she does, is because of things about her, where she does not grasp certain things and also where she indeed is fixated somehow on elements related to physicality.

To many males, she might not appear entirely unattractive, I can see that, to me she is a Plain Jane, not my type, but seeing what she has done, makes her entirely unattractive to me.

What I think is that she DOES think she is very attractive and that she was learning how to use the power of that,
and,
where she had confrontations simply because her whole thinking was revolving around physical related elements, and issues,
everything she did,
the way she interacted and expected reactions from others,
was related to this primary notion.
She said that her mother was beautiful. Knox, said that while the murder had just taken place, and she was coming out with stuff like that.
The thing is, of course someone can think that about his/her parent, that's ordinary behaviour, except, the timing, and, her mother is far from being a S. Loren, spo what is al the fixation on physical appearance?
It makes me wonder what her issue with/against Meredith was.

Laura or Filomena, relayed the episode where Knox had told Meredith that she liked Giancomo too, but that Meredith could have him.
That means it went something like: Mmm, well, you know, I like him too, but you can have him (as though she were a dictator on those things). Knox was already with Sollecito.
If Patrick stated; she thought she was the Queen Bee! then I believe him.
I think Meredith was vastly attractive, and vastly more so than Amanda Knox. Meredith was an attractive female, from what I can see, through not only her physical appearance, but her entire being, mentally, emotionally, her ways, her kindness.

That kindness is strikingly evident, one need only take a glimpse at the members of her family, all of them gentle, intelligent, considerate people. They've suffered so much, yet never hateful.
Look at how Lyle Kercher is, to me, that is a lovely family, composed of wonderful people.

I take a look at Mr Knox, and even if his daughter is in jail, what's the one characteristic about him? I think it's aggression, the way he looks, is so uptight, his daughter may be in jail, but to me, his behaviour is an excuse.
It may well be an excuse for his own hang-up(s), this case allows him to act like Mr Angry.
But, is it not possible, that if it were another person, that person could be at least as concerned as Mr Knox is, yet act entirely differently? Maybe not taking little children along to a courtroom with herds of media people outside and exposing them to such traumatic events would be one thing that could be done differently, but no, Mr Angry has the right to act like he could kill someone too, simply because he is acting like Mr Hard Done by because of the situation his daughter is in, but, the example he should have set, is of humility and gentleness.
Now he just makes me think Knox junior has a lot from Knox senior.

So for all I care, why doesn't Knoxy Foxy just wear a bikini to hear what they decided?

Maybe she could go topless and Sollecito in his swimming trunks with a parsnip/turnip/melon.. whatever it was, stuck up his unmentionables.

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Last edited by zorba on Sat Sep 10, 2011 11:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 7:28 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Your honour

.. which doesn't exist in Italy so, again..

Signor presidente della corte

and members of the jury do you find the woman there who said you all just locked her up because you hated her... guilty, not guilty, or.. more guilty

cut, cut, no jurors in Italy

Oh sorry, we're not from round these parts

Signor presidente della corte and giudici popolari

have the jurors reached a decision

cut, cut, how many more times, no jurors, giuduici, popalari, not popular as in, ew, look at me, everyone likes us, but popolo.. poulation, extracted from the people, judging with the judges.
Okay, once more

Signor presidente della corte and giudici popolari have you reached a decision on her over there dressed in the pole dancer's get up, is she guilty or more guilty?

Yes we have and she's more guilty

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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 11:14 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

capealadin wrote:
Hi Jackie...

I keep thinking you can't up your avatars, and then....Bingo. Another winner:)

Where will I be in December? ... maybe Vegas, maybe Seattle, visiting Mum, or...maybe in La Jolla :) :)


Cape in La Jolla...just when I though I couldn't love Cali any more than I already do ;-)

I'm glad you like the av - thank you, Cape - I know I'm not in Jester's or Piktor's league, but I do what I can. I wish I could somehow give my old ones away to the 'avatarless'.

I've got quite a collection now - the FOA make it so easy: decades out of date glam shots, padded c.v.'s, misrepresentations and outright fabrications. Marriott dug up some real winners.


Last edited by Jackie on Sat Sep 10, 2011 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

guermantes wrote:
The same theme - Amanda hopes to be home for Thanksgiving - echoed by two more articles published on the web, with slight variations.

REUTERS

AFP



I might be missing something here, but after the court's hearing on Wednesday, Amanda's lawyer (Ghirga) said something that sounded like the opposite: that Amanda is still very worried and anxious about the outcome of the appeal.

http://www.reuters.com/video/2011/09/07 ... =221320759

(at appr.2:20)

So she just made up her mind over night...
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:38 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Zorba, I really appreciate your remarks about the Knox outfits. From the beginning, I have been shaking my head at how she presents herself. Recently, I thought that someone had finally talked some sense into her and that she "got it". She didn't get it. The high beams we saw recently were also visible a week or so ago, but I didn't think it was quite right that I noticed so I kept it to myself. After initially commenting on how she may be thinking that she could use females wiles to influence the Judge, I had second thoughts and wondered if I was being harsh.

After yesterday's reports about how she believes the Judge now likes her so she'll get out of jail, and giving us more of her ditzy "I don't remembers" regarding her witness statements to police, I think my impression that she is still inclined to use sexuality to influence (especially) men and the Judge was correct. Throughout the trial, many have complained that she was sexualized by the media, but I think it was the other way around. Foxy Knoxy is the nickname she chose and sexuality is the weapon that she used with men. Let's take Sollecito, for example. He was a geeky, somewhat disturbed loner with access to a lot of money. When he met her, he noticed that they had little in common. He was bewildered that she was bopping her head to something, but it was unrelated to the classical music concert. That should be enough for most men to step back and take a second look. However, there was the sex angle, and before the night was over, sexuality was the lure and the geeky loner was in love.

For some reason, I always aligned going to court with going to church. It's a solemn experience where what is said is the only thing that matters. All other interpretations of life are suspended. Showing up in church in a red mini-skirt or without underwear isn't going to get someone thrown out of most churches, but it is going to garner an awful lot of sideways looks and distrust. At the same time, there's going to be the odd guy that is smirking in the corner while praying that God will forgive him for having the wrong thoughts. Knox's outfits are intended to communicate with that odd guy, hoping that he will be smitten with her and forget why he is in church in the first place. For her to suggest that the Judge likes her so she can reveal the secret that she will be released tells us all we need to know about how she has viewed this murder trial. She does not see that it is about guilt, innocence, Meredith Kercher, evidence, statements she gave to police, truth or facts. She sees this as seduction, lies spun like confused imaginings, facts smudged over with don't remembers and a game of trying to make people like her for any reason.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Ava wrote:
guermantes wrote:
The same theme - Amanda hopes to be home for Thanksgiving - echoed by two more articles published on the web, with slight variations.

REUTERS

AFP



I might be missing something here, but after the court's hearing on Wednesday, Amanda's lawyer (Ghirga) said something that sounded like the opposite: that Amanda is still very worried and anxious about the outcome of the appeal.

http://www.reuters.com/video/2011/09/07 ... =221320759

(at appr.2:20)

So she just made up her mind over night...


She's either confused by her own imaginings, or she can't remember from one day to the next what she's supposed to think and say.
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Offline zorba


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Location: London

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jester wrote:
Zorba, I really appreciate your remarks about the Knox outfits. From the beginning, I have been shaking my head at how she presents herself. Recently, I thought that someone had finally talked some sense into her and that she "got it". She didn't get it. The high beams we saw recently were also visible a week or so ago, but I didn't think it was quite right that I noticed so I kept it to myself. After initially commenting on how she may be thinking that she could use females wiles to influence the Judge, I had second thoughts and wondered if I was being harsh.

After yesterday's reports about how she believes the Judge now likes her so she'll get out of jail, and giving us more of her ditzy "I don't remembers" regarding her witness statements to police, I think my impression that she is still inclined to use sexuality to influence (especially) men and the Judge was correct. Throughout the trial, many have complained that she was sexualized by the media, but I think it was the other way around. Foxy Knoxy is the nickname she chose and sexuality is the weapon that she used with men. Let's take Sollecito, for example. He was a geeky, somewhat disturbed loner with access to a lot of money. When he met her, he noticed that they had little in common. He was bewildered that she was bopping her head to something, but it was unrelated to the classical music concert. That should be enough for most men to step back and take a second look. However, there was the sex angle, and before the night was over, sexuality was the lure and the geeky loner was in love.

For some reason, I always aligned going to court with going to church. It's a solemn experience where what is said is the only thing that matters. All other interpretations of life are suspended. Showing up in church in a red mini-skirt or without underwear isn't going to get someone thrown out of most churches, but it is going to garner an awful lot of sideways looks and distrust. At the same time, there's going to be the odd guy that is smirking in the corner while praying that God will forgive him for having the wrong thoughts. Knox's outfits are intended to communicate with that odd guy, hoping that he will be smitten with her and forget why he is in church in the first place. For her to suggest that the Judge likes her so she can reveal the secret that she will be released tells us all we need to know about how she has viewed this murder trial. She does not see that it is about guilt, innocence, Meredith Kercher, evidence, statements she gave to police, truth or facts. She sees this as seduction, lies spun like confused imaginings, facts smudged over with don't remembers and a game of trying to make people like her for any reason.



Hi there Jester, I thank you too, for writing it down, exactly how it is. I have been extremely tired the past couple of weeks, working at the computer, translating legal documents... amendments to company/partnership statutes, etc, drawn up by civil-law notaries, company documents, and that type of document is not like ordinary English, in fact, in either language (any language) they do not look actually LIKE language at all, consisting almost entirely of specialised legal jargon/terms, that seem to make no sense at all, at first sight, so up all night for work, sometimes working from say 3 in the afternoon/12 midday (anything) depending when I get a few hours sleep (in) and wake up and start work (immediately or after grabbing a few bits of shopping/fuel up with coffee and some nutrients) again, at home, until 5 the next day (or any type of hour day or night), PM, and of late had to, additionally, arrange stuff like tax... been falling asleep while working, even sometimes when it gets like that, almost wiping out what I was working on, because of my hand hitting the backspace key while falling asleep sat upright.

Anyway, how you've illuminated, is exactly what I was trying to get across, it isn't discrimination against the female or females, it's the other way around, and I for one, love women and how they may dress but as I said: time and place for everything.

Anyway, will shut up a minute before I ruin a very good moment, your illuminations.
I'm still too tired, going to re-read your post, so well written, thanks, really appreciate you taking the time.

There are things a human can sense, especially without any lags getting in the way, like own disturbances, and looking at Knox I keep sensing some bastard thing but cannot quite put my finger on it, I'm male and a feminist, so it is really not about telling any female to be less, to be inhibited, to be something she is not... but you do not go to your dad's funeral dressed in nothing but a thong and a top hat either.

This last descriptive exercise in overkill of mine is admittedly over the top, but, yes, all of that what you wrote is what it is actually ALL about.

_________________
Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
Ignorance of the law is no excuse
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Offline SqueakEMouse


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 5:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Ava wrote:
guermantes wrote:
The same theme - Amanda hopes to be home for Thanksgiving - echoed by two more articles published on the web, with slight variations.

REUTERS

AFP



I might be missing something here, but after the court's hearing on Wednesday, Amanda's lawyer (Ghirga) said something that sounded like the opposite: that Amanda is still very worried and anxious about the outcome of the appeal.

http://www.reuters.com/video/2011/09/07 ... =221320759

(at appr.2:20)

So she just made up her mind over night...



Different spin to different audiences?
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 7:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Hello All,

has anyone seen this video before? Amanda's parents on British morning show "This Morning". I stumbled upon it on Youtube quite by chance. It was uploaded on July 20, 2011 by InjusticeInPerugia, by the way. I hadn't been around much in July and August so I might have missed it.

It's a rare occasion that you see both Chris and Edda Mellas interviewed together. I know we are all tired of listening to their endless boring lies, embellishments of facts and exaggerations of their daughter's "virtues". Don't watch the video if you have a weak heart. :)



Btw, I tried to search this board for the link and couldn't find it. I also notice that the "search" feature on the "cloned" board has been disabled and is no longer available. Does anyone know why?
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

zorba wrote:
Jester wrote:
Zorba, I really appreciate your remarks about the Knox outfits. From the beginning, I have been shaking my head at how she presents herself. Recently, I thought that someone had finally talked some sense into her and that she "got it". She didn't get it. The high beams we saw recently were also visible a week or so ago, but I didn't think it was quite right that I noticed so I kept it to myself. After initially commenting on how she may be thinking that she could use females wiles to influence the Judge, I had second thoughts and wondered if I was being harsh.

After yesterday's reports about how she believes the Judge now likes her so she'll get out of jail, and giving us more of her ditzy "I don't remembers" regarding her witness statements to police, I think my impression that she is still inclined to use sexuality to influence (especially) men and the Judge was correct. Throughout the trial, many have complained that she was sexualized by the media, but I think it was the other way around. Foxy Knoxy is the nickname she chose and sexuality is the weapon that she used with men. Let's take Sollecito, for example. He was a geeky, somewhat disturbed loner with access to a lot of money. When he met her, he noticed that they had little in common. He was bewildered that she was bopping her head to something, but it was unrelated to the classical music concert. That should be enough for most men to step back and take a second look. However, there was the sex angle, and before the night was over, sexuality was the lure and the geeky loner was in love.

For some reason, I always aligned going to court with going to church. It's a solemn experience where what is said is the only thing that matters. All other interpretations of life are suspended. Showing up in church in a red mini-skirt or without underwear isn't going to get someone thrown out of most churches, but it is going to garner an awful lot of sideways looks and distrust. At the same time, there's going to be the odd guy that is smirking in the corner while praying that God will forgive him for having the wrong thoughts. Knox's outfits are intended to communicate with that odd guy, hoping that he will be smitten with her and forget why he is in church in the first place. For her to suggest that the Judge likes her so she can reveal the secret that she will be released tells us all we need to know about how she has viewed this murder trial. She does not see that it is about guilt, innocence, Meredith Kercher, evidence, statements she gave to police, truth or facts. She sees this as seduction, lies spun like confused imaginings, facts smudged over with don't remembers and a game of trying to make people like her for any reason.



Hi there Jester, I thank you too, for writing it down, exactly how it is. I have been extremely tired the past couple of weeks, working at the computer, translating legal documents... amendments to company/partnership statutes, etc, drawn up by civil-law notaries, company documents, and that type of document is not like ordinary English, in fact, in either language (any language) they do not look actually LIKE language at all, consisting almost entirely of specialised legal jargon/terms, that seem to make no sense at all, at first sight, so up all night for work, sometimes working from say 3 in the afternoon/12 midday (anything) depending when I get a few hours sleep (in) and wake up and start work (immediately or after grabbing a few bits of shopping/fuel up with coffee and some nutrients) again, at home, until 5 the next day (or any type of hour day or night), PM, and of late had to, additionally, arrange stuff like tax... been falling asleep while working, even sometimes when it gets like that, almost wiping out what I was working on, because of my hand hitting the backspace key while falling asleep sat upright.

Anyway, how you've illuminated, is exactly what I was trying to get across, it isn't discrimination against the female or females, it's the other way around, and I for one, love women and how they may dress but as I said: time and place for everything.

Anyway, will shut up a minute before I ruin a very good moment, your illuminations.
I'm still too tired, going to re-read your post, so well written, thanks, really appreciate you taking the time.

There are things a human can sense, especially without any lags getting in the way, like own disturbances, and looking at Knox I keep sensing some bastard thing but cannot quite put my finger on it, I'm male and a feminist, so it is really not about telling any female to be less, to be inhibited, to be something she is not... but you do not go to your dad's funeral dressed in nothing but a thong and a top hat either.

This last descriptive exercise in overkill of mine is admittedly over the top, but, yes, all of that what you wrote is what it is actually ALL about.


My work comes in waves as well ... making me at times almost certifiable, while others times I almost appear lucid. I enjoy some of the imagery you bring forth like Alice in Wonderland & the Mad Hatter and attending dad's funeral in a thong & top hat ... sleep deprivation is good for that sort of thing.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

guermantes wrote:
Hello All,

has anyone seen this video before? Amanda's parents on British morning show "This Morning". I stumbled upon it on Youtube quite by chance. It was uploaded on July 20, 2011 by InjusticeInPerugia, by the way. I hadn't been around much in July and August so I might have missed it.

It's a rare occasion that you see both Chris and Edda Mellas interviewed together. I know we are all tired of listening to their endless boring lies, embellishments of facts and exaggerations of their daughter's "virtues". Don't watch the video if you have a weak heart. :)

Btw, I tried to search this board for the link and couldn't find it. I also notice that the "search" feature on the "cloned" board has been disabled and is no longer available. Does anyone know why?


That interviewer was polite, but I don't think he was drinking the koolaid.

As for the search feature ... this is just a guess ... but there was a lot of cross over in the links when the board was twinned, and it's possible that the twins were intertwined in the search engine as well. That might explain the disabling ... although I just speculating.
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Offline Jester


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Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:24 pm

Posts: 2500

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:14 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

SqueakEMouse wrote:
Ava wrote:
guermantes wrote:
The same theme - Amanda hopes to be home for Thanksgiving - echoed by two more articles published on the web, with slight variations.

REUTERS

AFP



I might be missing something here, but after the court's hearing on Wednesday, Amanda's lawyer (Ghirga) said something that sounded like the opposite: that Amanda is still very worried and anxious about the outcome of the appeal.

http://www.reuters.com/video/2011/09/07 ... =221320759

(at appr.2:20)

So she just made up her mind over night...



Different spin to different audiences?


Sure ... it sounds like another example of Knox telling people what she thinks they want to hear ... ever the emty shell of a person that has no idea what is appropriate under the circumstances.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

10.9.2011

Process Meredith, Amanda will talk to the judges

Voluntary statement before the final decision. The father: "She will soon be free."

GOOGLE TRANS

15:24 - Amanda Knox, the young American sentenced to 26 years in prison in the first instance along with her former boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito for the murder of Meredith Kercher, will speak to the judges before they retire into closed session. This was announced by her lawyer, Luciano Ghirga. "Amanda is anxious and hopeful for these last stages of the process - the lawyer said - but wait with great respect for the decision of the judges."
The girl, who has always declared innocent, "will make spontaneous statements to the judges of the Assize Court of Appeals before they retire into closed session," said Ghirga.

Father to CNN: "She will soon be free"

At the end of the month she is out. Amanda Knox's father, in a brief interview with CNN, he sees "light at the end of the tunnel." "The prosecution has no evidence - said Curt Knox - Amanda will be released later this month. Finally, it seems that now want to really bring out the truth, so we can take home Amanda and Raffaele," added the father of the American girl.

"No contact with TV"

How much output to rumors in recent days that an American network would offer to Amanda and her family a return flight to America on a private jet in exchange for an exclusive interview in the event of an acquittal of the young student from Seattle, denies everything. "No contact, we must first await the decision of the Court," added the lawyer. The trial will resume on September 23 with the indictment of the prosecutor. The ruling is expected by the end of the month or early October.


TGCOM


Last edited by guermantes on Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jackie,

I tell ya, no matter how my day is, when I see *you*, your avatars, Jesters pics, a smile and dimples appear. Because some times, humour is necessary, no?

For me, it was not the knife, bra clasp or the witnesses. I became drawn to this case, when I read that an innocent young girl was falsely arrested.

In a very short time, I realized this was not the case. Who, after smoking a couple of spinelli's couldn't get one thing of their story straight? It wasn't exactly as though they described a complicated evening.

How would anyone accuse an innocent man, after a couple of hours of questioning?

Why would Raff and Amanda be scared of what an unknown man would say about them? Why would they be scared of his * lies*. How would he even be implicating them? They never implicated HIM.

The forgotten call home.

And, something that always pulls me up short. The photo of Amanda and Raff, standing a bit away from the cottage. Not the one of them snogging.

The unkempt, puffed up one. Looking exhausted, pale, unwell..and according to the police, Amanda reeking. This, after a shower and blow dry.

It was obvious she had not showered, or washed her hair. The long e-mail, bolstering this lie. If she had nothing to do with this, she would have simply stated, I came home, found something wrong, called my boyfriend, police, roomates, at THAT time. The whole scenario was pivotal to my thinking guilt.

Then, there were so many other things. Raff throwing her under the bus.

At last, Amanda admits to lying about something. Taken down from the net, pretty quickly. Oh, Amanda's not allowed to speak? Not even through her lawyer.

Then, WHY was she able to tell Walter that she had a fair trial?

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jester wrote:
guermantes wrote:
Hello All,

has anyone seen this video before? Amanda's parents on British morning show "This Morning". I stumbled upon it on Youtube quite by chance. It was uploaded on July 20, 2011 by InjusticeInPerugia, by the way. I hadn't been around much in July and August so I might have missed it.

It's a rare occasion that you see both Chris and Edda Mellas interviewed together. I know we are all tired of listening to their endless boring lies, embellishments of facts and exaggerations of their daughter's "virtues". Don't watch the video if you have a weak heart. :)

Btw, I tried to search this board for the link and couldn't find it. I also notice that the "search" feature on the "cloned" board has been disabled and is no longer available. Does anyone know why?


That interviewer was polite, but I don't think he was drinking the koolaid.

As for the search feature ... this is just a guess ... but there was a lot of cross over in the links when the board was twinned, and it's possible that the twins were intertwined in the search engine as well. That might explain the disabling ... although I just speculating.



No, it's because the 'technical admin' has turned off the search feature for guests (it should still work for signed in members). He wanted to do the same here, when he was here, the idea being to reduce demand on server load. But, since searches didn't make any unacceptable demands on server load here, I said no. I consider the search feature to be an essential requirement for the board, since part of our primary mandate is as an information source for the public and media. As the board grows further and evermore data is added, the search feature becomes even more essential. A board is useless as an information source if nobody is able to find anything. If you take away the search function, then you take away one of the main reasons for PMF to exist. Since he is now free to do whatever he wants on the board he cloned, he's obviously put what he wanted to do here, into practice there. That is what happens when you put an IT guy in a position of making executive decisions about the most fundamental workings of a site. They prioritise their quest for (unnecessary) technical perfection over the ethos of the board and the very reason for the site to exist, the very embodiment of 'completely missing the point'.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 11:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

guermantes wrote:
10.9.2011

Process Meredith, Amanda will talk to the judges

Voluntary statement before the final decision. The father: "She will soon be free."

GOOGLE TRANS

15:24 - Amanda Knox, the young American sentenced to 26 years in prison in the first instance along with her former boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito for the murder of Meredith Kercher, will speak to the judges before they retire into closed session. This was announced by her lawyer, Luciano Ghirga. "Amanda is anxious and hopeful for these last stages of the process - the lawyer said - but wait with great respect for the decision of the judges."
The girl, who has always declared innocent, "will make spontaneous statements to the judges of the Assize Court of Appeals before they retire into closed session," said Ghirga.

Father to CNN: "She will soon be free"

At the end of the month she is out. Amanda Knox's father, in a brief interview with CNN, he sees "light at the end of the tunnel." "The prosecution has no evidence - said Curt Knox - Amanda will be released later this month. Finally, it seems that now want to really bring out the truth, so we can take home Amanda and Raffaele," added the father of the American girl.

"No contact with TV"

How much output to rumors in recent days that an American network would offer to Amanda and her family a return flight to America on a private jet in exchange for an exclusive interview in the event of an acquittal of the young student from Seattle, denies everything. "No contact, we must first await the decision of the Court," added the lawyer. The trial will resume on September 23 with the indictment of the prosecutor. The ruling is expected by the end of the month or early October.


TGCOM



It's a Knox trademark...she always insists on making a speech to the court.

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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 11:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

No doubt * I want to live * along the lines of the movie by the same name, staring Susan Hayward.

Doesn't want to wear the mask of the assassin? Why not, it's a perfect fit.

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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 11:29 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Thanks Michael for you answer and clarification. It's too bad that the search function isn't working over there.

Michael wrote:
I consider the search feature to be an essential requirement for the board, since part of our primary mandate is as an information source for the public and media.


I couldn't agree more Michael - from a usability point of view, an efficient search function is not only helpful but crucial. It's a little annoying, actually - not being able to search the site when looking for specific information.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 11:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

guermantes wrote:
Thanks Michael for you answer and clarification. It's too bad that the search function isn't working over there.

Michael wrote:
I consider the search feature to be an essential requirement for the board, since part of our primary mandate is as an information source for the public and media.


I couldn't agree more with you Michael - from a usability point of view, an efficient search function is not only helpful but crucial. It's a little annoying, actually - not being able to search the site when looking for specific information.



It's more then annoying. If you can't search the board, then pretty much all of that goldmine of information and ideas you've collectively as a community spent over three years building up is essentially 'lost' to all. People are not going to manually trawl through 20 + (and growing) discussion threads of 250 posts per page and up to 30 pages long, in the hope they may just stumble upon what they're looking for. It's just in addition to their losing us the TCWMB (that archive of information, over six months worth of community case data, is now gone forever because the Admin at the cloned board just 'stopped' doing the one task that was entrusted to her to ensure that board wasn't deleted. So, if any of you go looking for it and wonder why it's not there, now you know why).

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Offline Tiziano


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:30 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 - from the media   

Knox'sfather

Video with Italian commentary.

Ghirga

Perugia, September 10th, 2011.

"Amanda will make spontaneous declarations to the judges of the Appeal Court of the Assizes before they withdraw to chambers." Her lawyer Luciano Ghirgha has said so. This morning he went to see Amanda in prison in Perugia.
"She is anxious and hopeful about these last stages of the trial - her lawyer said further - but she is awaiting the judges' decision with much respect."

In recent days rumours have been circulating that an American network is supposed to have offered Amanda and her family a flight back to America in a private jet in return for an exclusive interview, in the case of a not guilty finding, But the young student from Seattle denies everything.
"No contact, first we must await the Court's decision," the lawyer added. The trial will resume from September 23rd with the summing up of the Prosecutor. The sentence is expected at the end of the month or the beginning of October.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:57 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

It's rather unbelievable that the declaration by the Judge that they have enough information to make a ruling on the DNA without the completion of a second DNA report has been interpreted as meaning that Knox will be released from prison. Am I missing something?
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:14 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael, I've been trying to wrap my head around what you were saying the other day about Knox now pretending that she can't remember why she implicated Patrick in the first place. I think you've hit the nail on the head. Knox believes she will be released and that her only remaining obstacle is her accusations against police of beating her until she lied about Patrick. It seems that she wants to retract those accusations in the hopes that she will be released and it will be all over.

Is that how it will go? Will the knife and clasp be rejected by the court, all the other evidence, like the staged break in and bloody footprints that don't match Guede, omitted and all of a sudden Knox and Sollecito walk out of prison with nothing left to do but sue the system for their half million euros?

OR ... is this another case of the murderer and her family telling the media how the courts will rule and expecting the courts to do what they say?
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:22 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

capealadin wrote:
No doubt * I want to live * along the lines of the movie by the same name, staring Susan Hayward.

Doesn't want to wear the mask of the assassin? Why not, it's a perfect fit.


I didn't know there was a movie reference. I still don't quite know what she means. Meredith was murdered, not Knox. Knox is alive and convicted of murder. What is she talking about with this "I want to live" crap? She's really playing up the victim these days. Pathetic.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:30 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

capealadin wrote:
Jackie,

I tell ya, no matter how my day is, when I see *you*, your avatars, Jesters pics, a smile and dimples appear. Because some times, humour is necessary, no?

For me, it was not the knife, bra clasp or the witnesses. I became drawn to this case, when I read that an innocent young girl was falsely arrested.

In a very short time, I realized this was not the case. Who, after smoking a couple of spinelli's couldn't get one thing of their story straight? It wasn't exactly as though they described a complicated evening.

How would anyone accuse an innocent man, after a couple of hours of questioning?

Why would Raff and Amanda be scared of what an unknown man would say about them? Why would they be scared of his * lies*. How would he even be implicating them? They never implicated HIM.

The forgotten call home.

And, something that always pulls me up short. The photo of Amanda and Raff, standing a bit away from the cottage. Not the one of them snogging.

The unkempt, puffed up one. Looking exhausted, pale, unwell..and according to the police, Amanda reeking. This, after a shower and blow dry.

It was obvious she had not showered, or washed her hair. The long e-mail, bolstering this lie. If she had nothing to do with this, she would have simply stated, I came home, found something wrong, called my boyfriend, police, roomates, at THAT time. The whole scenario was pivotal to my thinking guilt.

Then, there were so many other things. Raff throwing her under the bus.

At last, Amanda admits to lying about something. Taken down from the net, pretty quickly. Oh, Amanda's not allowed to speak? Not even through her lawyer.

Then, WHY was she able to tell Walter that she had a fair trial?


Perhaps the prosecution, in their closing arguments, should quote Knox saying that she showered that day, and then show a larger photo of her on that day surrounded by smaller photos from all the prison photos of her where she did shower that day. That would be enough to cast doubt on the shower. Doubt on the shower places question on what she did at the cottage that morning ... like whether she was locking Meredith's bedroom door and throwing away the keys. From there, the story unfolds and the alibis unravel.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:57 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

And now for a commercial break, I received this email ... which I cannot decipher:

"Thanks I did the software but one thing i forgot to accurate run the software, So for I started my practice. That one I'll discus in class."

It's a legit email but it's garbled.

Knox-speak-ing native language English is also garbled. I can accept garbled language from someone that has English as a new language, but Knox? She doesn't speak any other language. Her Italian lacks class - she learned it in jail; it's not like we expect any better. Knox-Speak is garbled English, facts and memories with imaginings and smudged "I forgets" thrown in. With her high beams, she hopes to make the Judge forget about the facts, focus on the now and remember that I'm like your granddaugter who just went through puberty and doesn't know any better. I hope they slam her to the wall.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:27 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

a photo now how do i do that

Hey guard, do ya mind if I do a few cartwheels? I won't say you forced me to do them, no, I swear, on scouts honour and ya can come ta muh party after


Guard says fuk all, but thinks: what the fukadukkery is she up to now, I'm just glad she ain't coming to my party



http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0bc482s2wl6bi/x610.jpg

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Last edited by zorba on Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:37 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

She's a 24 year old woman, 10 years older than the age for throwing people in prison for life, or killing them, when they commit murder in the US. Appeals in the US most often denied, or sentence is confirmed - thus the emergence of innocence projects like what we see in Idaho (is that KKK country, by any chance?). Did the Knox/Mellas family appealed to a state (Idano) with a common belief that the black african did it - Rudy was described as something like an African American for a while - as though all black people are former US slaves.

Why do the US media continuously attempt to align Ms Knox with a little girl. She is well past the age of being a little girl and anyone that aligns her to that age is falling into the allure of her feminine wiles. She play acts what she thinks people want her to be, hoping judges and politicians will dream of her. She is using seduction to manipulate. She's 24 years of age, so she's aware enough to play the black widow, the Femme Fatale.

The stretch thing is just bullshit to cover for the callous cartwheels.


Last edited by Jester on Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:40 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

daughter, you sure you are telling me the truth, I mean, I had my own version, and it went, hey daughter, you woke me up, it was 3 in the morning, but although we were speaking about it recently, well hell, ya just declared in open court that ya don't recall, oh well, I guess I was wrong, please don't call me a liar though, now, sorry for gettin my version wrong

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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:46 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

How about: "What the heck did you get yourself into this time ... and you expect me to get you out of it? Do you realize how much this is costing us - are you sure we can pull it off? You're in for a shipload of money if you pull this off ... what are the chances?"
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:51 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

exactly jester

though we cannot see knox's eyes, i get the feeling she's avoiding looking too deeply into her mom's ones, and mom just seems to know, but, she thinks it is right, or she doesn't even think, she just does, what she does is desire to get knox out of there, even knowing full well that she is a murderer

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:52 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

http://www.daylife.com/photo/019SdVjgsq ... manda+Knox

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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:57 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Please tell me that mom, given her weight, is not wearing shorts or tight white pants in court.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 6:10 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

she sure looks like she knows though eh jester and looks fed up with her but still with has the intent to lie too, if she must, to get her daughter off but it looks like her expression says, ordinarily... you just wait till i get u home


like she deals with it as though her daughter stole some apples from the neighbour's back garden

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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 6:13 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

zorba wrote:
exactly jester

though we cannot see knox's eyes, i get the feeling she's avoiding looking too deeply into her mom's ones, and mom just seems to know, but, she thinks it is right, or she doesn't even think, she just does, what she does is desire to get knox out of there, even knowing full well that she is a murderer


It's rather astonishing that Knox mother hasn't taken the time to think through the facts of the case. She is unable to even comment about the phone call that neither she nor her daughter want to discuss (before the murder was discovered), in or out of court. I couldn't imagine having a child that couldn't look me in the eye or that I couldn't look in the eye.

I think that Knox's mother Edda has known that her daughter was capable of committing murder all along ... and now that she as a murdered roomate ... she's determined to bring her daughter home and pretend everything is okay/normal/right. I disagree with what she, her husband and Knox's father are trying to do not only because of their tactics, but because of what they must already know. From that 3-4 AM phone call on, they knew something wasn't right. An hour later they heard about the murder, and all of a sudden Edda is taking a work break so she can fly to Italy where her daughter's roommate was murdered ... but somehow in the mix they forgot to express any condolences about the murder because they're saving it for later ... years and years later ... and then they will be sorry that Meredith lost her life.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 6:13 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

i have to get some sleep still totally out zoned, zoned out, whatevva, qua time and biological clock settings.

Think I need to marry a Hatty Jaques type of matron like in the Carry On films to boss me into normality.

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Last edited by zorba on Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 6:57 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

I figured out that I could go on four hours of sleep for four nights in a row, but after that, I was 100% sleeping.

What's really frightening is that women in their fifties with facial surgery that was supposed to make them look young, but instead turned them into freaks, are still using the same seductions that Knox is using. Whether she is 24 years of age pretending to be a 14 year old, or a 54 year old trying to be a 14 year old, it's all the same, but it's stomach turning to watch when they're 54 years of age, black widows, or trying to cover up a murder.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:44 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jester wrote:
Michael, I've been trying to wrap my head around what you were saying the other day about Knox now pretending that she can't remember why she implicated Patrick in the first place. I think you've hit the nail on the head. Knox believes she will be released and that her only remaining obstacle is her accusations against police of beating her until she lied about Patrick. It seems that she wants to retract those accusations in the hopes that she will be released and it will be all over.

Is that how it will go? Will the knife and clasp be rejected by the court, all the other evidence, like the staged break in and bloody footprints that don't match Guede, omitted and all of a sudden Knox and Sollecito walk out of prison with nothing left to do but sue the system for their half million euros?

OR ... is this another case of the murderer and her family telling the media how the courts will rule and expecting the courts to do what they say?



There are other implications people haven't considered. If Knox is acquitted of the murder, she'll also be acquitted of the other lesser charges....the illegal transportation of the knife, theft of the phones, the simulation of a crime (the staging), but the conviction of calunnia for her accusation against Patrick will still stand. It doesn't matter the excuses or that she's acquitted of everything else, she still accused Patrick and that is a criminal offence and the conviction and sentence for it will stand. No doubt, the Knox family will declare to the world that Knox isn't a convicted criminal, that the calunnia is merely a libel thing and so a civil offence...this would be a lie. Calunnia is a crime and a serious one, one that carries a mandatory prison sentence. She will also still face the calunnia against the police charge. It has already been referred to trial. Even if the police drop their own suit, that trial still goes ahead because calunnia is considered primarily a crime against the state. Now, if convicted of that, she'll get more then a year, which is what she got for the first calunnia, as this will be a second offence. Neither would she get the mitigation for having a clean record, neither is she so young now (as in her trial, she got mitigation for her young age). What one could end up with is a sentence of three years, which added to the year for her first calunnia charge would make four years. Still with me?

Knox will have spent almost four years in jail. Those four years in jail will have legitimately been spent there, for crimes committed even though she's been acquitted of the actual murder and therefore, the dreams of the Knox family to recoup the 'millions' they've spent throughout this case in the form of millions in compensation to Knox for wrongful imprisonment will be completely up in smoke, they won't get a penny! And they'll have more costs to come, paying their legal teams for the two automatic appeals concerning the second calunnia charge and the paresnts are still facing a defamation suit.

Chris Mellas encouraging Knox to make accusations of criminal wrongdoing against the police on the stand in the trial, will be the most costly thing he's ever done. The Melloxes have effectively shot themselves in the foot!

But it's worth remembering, it's not just about getting out of jail and getting her passport back quickly, Knox and her family have other huge incentives to make the upcoming calunnia charge go away.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:03 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Amanda Knox tells Italian newspaper 'some still want to hurt me'

Cindy Adams, Crime Examiner
September 10, 2011

EXAMINER


(Talk about milking it for the sympathy vote!)

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Offline max


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:57 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

I don't agree with Comodi that Hellmann never asked the indies any questions. That is if she indeed said that (can't trust the media these days). Hellmann asked a question and it showed what he was interested in 'Is there something of Meredith on that knife or not?'. The answer was 'yes, but but...'. That he doesn't allow a re-test shows that he accepts that Meredith's DNA is on that knife. So he accepts Stefanoni testing methods and he rejects the 'too low' argument. Now the question is, what does he think of the mishandling and contamination arguments.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:04 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Oh, and one last thing about that bathmat footprint. Who puts their foot into a strangers bidet? Yuk! No, somebody knew that bidet wasn't used for any ass cleaning, but was used for washing feet. Who else then.....?
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:45 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Amanda Knox prosecutor convicted of abuse of office

BY ANDREA VOGT, SPECIAL TO SEATTLEPI.COM

Published 10:00 p.m., Thursday, January 21, 2010


SEATTLE PI


Andrea Vogt on Twitter:

andreavogt Andrea Vogt
#Mignini abuse of office appeal set for Nov 22. @andreavogt,
@BLNadeau for coverage from Florence courts


(Barbie and Andrea will be covering his appeal :) )

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:45 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

max wrote:
Oh, and one last thing about that bathmat footprint. Who puts their foot into a strangers bidet? Yuk! No, somebody knew that bidet wasn't used for any ass cleaning, but was used for washing feet. Who else then.....?



:) :) :) You just made me laugh...

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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:27 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

I don't see how Amanda can be aquitted. There is too much evidence. These latest * outpourings * are just ploys. Sympathy votes, indeed. She already got that, the first go round, by getting a relatively light sentence.

I see it's come down to....Personal. They like me, some don't like me. ( Amanda)

Ghirga: We are confident, ... however, we await with respect the judges decision. Right. It's so freaking transparent. Do they believe the Judges are that gullible? It's possible that this is the way things are done there.

Watching and enjoying the Italians play futbal, and seeing the soap opera dramatics, the pretending to have been severely kicked, the rolling in * agony*, but not being able to resist peeking through fingers, to see how it's going down, well, I guess sometimes it works. There are umpires and referees who go for it. Nothing to lose, right?

I'm giving the Judges more respect, than to fall for these shenanigans.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 12:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

UPDATE: "Amanda Knox will be freed" says Italian prosecutor; Judge won't allow new DNA tests by prosecution

Judge stands by his court-appointed forensics experts that dismissed DNA findings on the knife and deemed original evidence collection methods invalid

By Steve Shay

2011-09-11

UPDATE, SEPT. 11


WEST SEATTLE HERALD

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 12:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

From the above WSH article by FOA Shay:


Steve Shay wrote:
A questionable article is circulating in many major Seattle media outlets, and beyond, picked up by European sources with the headline "Amanda Knox hopes to be home for Thanksgiving". The article claims Knox spoke to an Italian newspaper, which she did not, her parents told the West Seattle Herald. They pointed out that it is illegal in Italy for their daughter, who is convicted of murder, to speak to any media unless, and until, she is freed. She has not yet spoken to any press at any time.


RED FLAG! RED FLAG! Why are the Melloxes going so far out of their way to deny that Knox spoke to Italian media (where she made fairly innocuous comments) and why is FOA Shay going out of his way in turn to print this 'non-story'? She did or didn't say it, so what? Why the fuss? I'll tell you why...the Melloxes have been working on deals behind the scenes with US media outlets for money or reward, the likes of Elizabeth Vargas, and those deals require those outlets have first dibs on interviews with Knox (exclusives). News that Knox has spoken to Italian media lowers the value of those deals or jeopardises them entirely.

The Melloxes are so transparent!

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 12:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

How, I wonder, is Amanda not speaking to or throught the press? Where is the * They like me* *some want to hurt me* I'll be home for Thanksgiving from then? Very confusing.

Either she's allowed to make statements, or she isn't.

Are these statemnets true? Is her statement that she lied about Patrick true? Oh, I think I see :)

It's true if Amanda is being duly repentant about lying. But, it's not true, if admitting she lied means..she wasn't...coerced. Pfft.

On a light note. Shuttit, trying desperately to debate with the numbskulls, has finally admitted he feels like he's taking crazy pills. He's the lone poster on JLOL, whilst not asserting that he thinks Amanda is guilty, but trying to get them to make even a teeny bit of sense.

GOOD LUCK with that Shuttit. I think a medal should be on it's way. You're earning it. :)

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Remembrances to all who suffered due to 9/11, on this the 10th anniversary. ss)

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

capealadin wrote:
Remembrances to all who suffered due to 9/11, on this the 10th anniversary. ss)

Same here. Still trembling and shaking when I see the clips of the 2nd plane flying in. Still unbelievable. I did see the Twin Towers in real...just once in my life...in 2001..few months before.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

I remember waking up early for no reason. It was close to 6.00 am, as I recall. I switched on the TV, and was surfing, looking for something interesting.

I was annoyed, wondering why they were showing the movie * Die Hard * on so many channels. :(

It then became obvious that something terrible was happening. As it unfolded, I really was in shock. I called my best friend, and we stayed on the phone, all the while watching. My cell died, and I stayed glued to the TV for ages.

I finally went over to my friend's place, and we watched and cried together. I shall never forget the images. The obvious ones, and then the one of the person jumping. Then I just couldn't watch anymore. Not for quite awhile.

And, hearing the talking of the people in the plane. Knowing that they were going to die. I felt my heart crack.

The fear and pain and loss will never really go away, for so many. Those towers were iconic. I still get a shock when I see movies with them in it, or photos.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

capealadin wrote:
Remembrances to all who suffered due to 9/11, on this the 10th anniversary. ss)


Indeed.
What I find typifying, is that what Lao Tze said, when he turned his back on civilization thousands of years ago.


He left the city, on the back of a bull - the bull was symbolic - saying that he was disgusted with man's inhumanity to man.

That short line just about fully describes, condensed, the entire human pitfall.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

max wrote:
Oh, and one last thing about that bathmat footprint. Who puts their foot into a strangers bidet? Yuk! No, somebody knew that bidet wasn't used for any ass cleaning, but was used for washing feet. Who else then.....?



Well not one's foot perhaps, but, I worked at an Indian bakery for about 2 days when I was 16, it was awful hard work, I was a smoking weed & hash back then and just about no place meant any kind of hold-up with that, so I smoked a couple of joints on the roof or somewhere but you know, perhaps, how if you smoke a joint in certain (official-like) places how it seems to be so much more effective than if you had done it at home perhaps not even noticing you had smoked anything, well, I went to the toilet and it was full of these strange looking toilet bowls that I'd never seen before in my life, I thought what an odd shape and what is this with no toilet seat, so I took a dump in one and my god, it wouldn't flush away, haha,
I say ha ha ha, but it wasn't very! It freaked me out, it was like flushing after someone had poured a mixture of melted candle wax and spaghetti into the toilet.

I don't have the courage to admit what I had to do to clear up there, yes did clear up as I'm not a complete animal and didn't think I ought leave that trash for someone else to discover.

I steered clear of those things for the next ten years, until someone explained what they were!

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Re: Knox talking to media, early reports were that her lawyer has been relaying information from Knox to the media. Today, media stories suggest that she has been talking to media, but I suspect that someone twisted the information between Friday and today. I don't think she has been talking to media. I was under the impression that media weren't exactly allowed to have interviews with Knox. The article has a blatant contradiction:

"On Friday, Amanda Knox spoke to a local newspaper about her appeal and her hopes for the future. She also noted that after much testimony, many “finally” believe her, but there are still some who “want to hurt” her."

AND ... later in the article

"Knox told il Messaggero through her attorney Luciano Ghirga, “Finally they believe me. I always knew that I would make it. I hope that I will be back home in the United States for Thanksgiving Day... It's great to know that at last they don't hate me anymore, that they are not looking at me as if I am guilty, although not all of them believe me, some still want to hurt me and I don't understand why.”

She continued, “During the first trial I was so afraid to go in the witness box, there was such a hostile atmosphere, every time I spoke and cried as I tried to explain that I had nothing to do with what happened that night, I could tell people were laughing bemusedly and shrugging their shoulders. Now it's all changed.”

Knox was asked her biggest secret and she said she was afraid to say it out loud because she still doesn't truly believe it. She relented and said, “OK, I will tell you. My secret is that I always believed I would get out of jail, where my life had frozen, after getting the truth to emerge.”

http://www.examiner.com/crime-in-nation ... to-hurt-me
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jester wrote:
zorba wrote:
exactly jester

though we cannot see knox's eyes, i get the feeling she's avoiding looking too deeply into her mom's ones, and mom just seems to know, but, she thinks it is right, or she doesn't even think, she just does, what she does is desire to get knox out of there, even knowing full well that she is a murderer


It's rather astonishing that Knox mother hasn't taken the time to think through the facts of the case. She is unable to even comment about the phone call that neither she nor her daughter want to discuss (before the murder was discovered), in or out of court. I couldn't imagine having a child that couldn't look me in the eye or that I couldn't look in the eye.

I think that Knox's mother Edda has known that her daughter was capable of committing murder all along ... and now that she as a murdered roomate ... she's determined to bring her daughter home and pretend everything is okay/normal/right. I disagree with what she, her husband and Knox's father are trying to do not only because of their tactics, but because of what they must already know. From that 3-4 AM phone call on, they knew something wasn't right. An hour later they heard about the murder, and all of a sudden Edda is taking a work break so she can fly to Italy where her daughter's roommate was murdered ... but somehow in the mix they forgot to express any condolences about the murder because they're saving it for later ... years and years later ... and then they will be sorry that Meredith lost her life.



You put it right there, yes, indeed, the very thing that had mom up out of bed in the middle of the night, unable to even eat a morsel, and look at her, well she doesn't look like she misses meals, so, there she was, up at the crack of dawn and within no time on a plane, off to some place, perhps ffurther away than she'd ever been, Germany being as far as she may hve ventured ever before, now how could SHE forget the connecting activity/matter/happening scene that had caused this major upheaval in her life and yes, daughter Knox had perobably had to apologise ten-fold, 20-fold for havingcaused mom all that trouble but mom said well, I'm your mother and we know you are innocent.

Yes said Amanda Knox, in no cent, in no sence, staring sideways at the floor.

Amanda Knox's mother was truly dumbfounded there in open court, right there in court, open for everyone to see, her reaction in open court did I say that before OPEN.

There she is trying to help her daughter and brainwash her very own self into actually believing everything but then daughter-love puts her into a position on the chessboard of truth that she just cannot get around, and knows at that VERY moment that her daughter is lying and must be guilty and you can see it all dawning on her but in no way is this about to make her stand up and be counted as a true-thinking good citizen, nope... because it's her daughter and daughter-dear weighs thicker than spilt blood. You can see it dawning on her in OPEN COURT, she knowing that Amanda knows full well what she meant, and they had so very often referred to it all, so yeah, mom is a liar... and a fool.
If she hadn't been a liar before, at that moment the game of lying, the awful game of deceit forced her into the real life position of being a first grade liar. If her mother had declared to the court or rather argued it out with her daughter, at that moment in court, when Amanda pretended not to remember, instead of accepting it from her daughter and acting like she herself might have been mistaken or that her daughter could have forgotten when she knew full well that in no way had her daughter forgotten it then the court wouldn't have needed a lot more to decide that Amanda Knox is a complete FAKE. As it goes, I think the lay judges from the first round already realised that aManda Knox and Sollecito are both complete FAKES and LIARS.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

A tongue in cheek prediction: Amanda Knox will be making a spontaneous declaration to repudiate all previous spontaneous declarations, including the one where she called Patrick, "the African boy who owns the pub called “Le Chic”

What's with all the subliminal racism that permeates this case?
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Ergon wrote:
A tongue in cheek prediction: Amanda Knox will be making a spontaneous declaration to repudiate all previous spontaneous declarations, including the one where she called Patrick, "the African boy who owns the pub called “Le Chic”

What's with all the subliminal racism that permeates this case?



To be fair, I'm suspecting 'boy' in that phrase is simply an awkward translation of the Italian word 'regazzo' which means young man or male youth. In Italy, the word 'boy' (although regazzo doesn't really mean 'boy') does not have the same connotations when used with black people as it does in English language countries, as they didn't grow up with the use of the word 'boy' in relation to black men in their cultural history. In fact, it's not a direct part of the UK's cultural history either or that of other non-US English speaking countries, it only resonates in the English speaking world because that world is aware of US cultural history.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:47 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Another crosspost, apologies.

Ergon wrote:
The Machine wrote:
Ergon wrote:
Another tongue in cheek prediction: Amanda Knox will be making a spontaneous declaration to repudiate all previous spontaneous declarations, including the one where she called Patrick, "the African boy who owns the pub called “Le Chic”

What's with all the subliminal racism that permeates this case?


The groupies make many overtly racist and xenophobic comments about Italy.


That was clear from reading their oeuvre, but I wondered if that came from genuine feelings of distrust of Italian justice or a strategic decision to push as many hot buttons as possible to sway public opinion. American girl in distress and mistreated by swarthy foreigners with dodgy justice systems may carry a certain weight with oh, people who still call black men 'boys'.

Of course, Italians have every right to complain about American justice, where the NATO flyboy who caused the Cavalese cable car disaster of 1998, the G.I's that deliberately targeted and shot Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena and killed secret police major-general Nicola Calipari, and the CIA agents that facilitated torture in Italy all escaped justice
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

There certainly is an undercurrent of racism amongst both the Knox supporters and their supporters in the US media (sometimes it''s not so subtle either), both to Rudy as the black guy and to Italians. There is a tone of 'they are so inferior to us' and it forms the basis of one of their arguments of why Knox should go free. They (the Italians) aren't Americans and they just do things like the Americans do.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:15 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
Ergon wrote:
A tongue in cheek prediction: Amanda Knox will be making a spontaneous declaration to repudiate all previous spontaneous declarations, including the one where she called Patrick, "the African boy who owns the pub called “Le Chic”

What's with all the subliminal racism that permeates this case?



To be fair, I'm suspecting 'boy' in that phrase is simply an awkward translation of the Italian word 'regazzo' which means young man or male youth. In Italy, the word 'boy' (although regazzo doesn't really mean 'boy') does not have the same connotations when used with black people as it does in English language countries, as they didn't grow up with the use of the word 'boy' in relation to black men in their cultural history. In fact, it's not a direct part of the UK's cultural history either or that of other non-US English speaking countries, it only resonates in the English speaking world because that world is aware of US cultural history.


How old is Patrick Lumumba? In his 40's? I was trying to be fair too, and did wonder if it was a subliminal connection with Rudy Guede? (Who was 20 yrs old at the time)
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Vella Dova: My client has spent the past 3 months devising, planning and practicing a spontaneous statement, she would now like to present it, spontaneously.. please refrain from clapping as even though it may appear to be a theatrical piece, she takes no credit, she would like to thank her director, her producer, her mom n dad and cousin Sally in O HI there O! Sally Hamipikian and Mr Marriot.

Knox: Look, I don't know how to put this, but I did lie, I want to say, that the truth I'm telling now, about my ONE lie... I gather you my audience all know which one because I only told one lie didn't... I, didn't I?

I can't remember now but it's unimportant, I just want to say, I know it's not okay to tell lies but sometimes, a little WHITE lie, is okay, I know it was a white lie about a black man, and what was it I wanted to say now, I don't remember but it was a BLACK man and a WHITE lie, bingo, salt n peppa.

So, I really like that black man Patrik, and, why I told such horrifically, entirely fabricated, completely untrue set of scenes and scenarios about him, I cannot imagine why, but let me get it straight, it had nothing to do with the police suspecting me of murder and me trying to get them off my back, it was obvious that everyone in Perugia hated my guts and that is why I have been placed in prison.

I thank the judge here for seeing sense unlike his comrades and and colleagues and having told that prosecutor dude, that bad bad prosecutor, when I said bad bad black man Patrick I must have meant bad, bad Italian prosecutor man, that there's no need for more tests.

I again thank the nice new judge for liking me and showing he is on my side.

I'm glad that now everyone seems to like me as it's clear everyone did hate me, and my imprisonment had nothing to do with all of the evidence, well, my family said no evidence, I hope this is all clear now.

I thank again the scientists who liked me and said they don't really know what they were talking about but the contamination idea Hamipikan wrote to them about must have been right, this without being able to underpin it scientifically, I would like to thank the judge for liking me and seeing things my way, I'm sure if he ever wants to visit America he will be welcome in our home.

On the other judges I say shame on you all for hating me, and I still do not know why my boyfriend sat over there, Mr Raffaele Sollecito, said he lied for me, I mean, there were no inconsistencies, we both told lies and that's that.

I do not know what I ever did to him for him to tell lies about me, I don't know what Patrik (sic/sick) ever did to me either or I to him, for me to make up wicked lies about him, I don't know why my mom lied in court or what I ever did to her, but in fact, I'm not a liar and I always tell the truth... in my versions.

This has all greatly inconvenienced my life the one I want to live.
Never mind anyone else, even if I do have to say the latter, it's about me, my life, my spontaneous statements.
I mean the English girl, clever, funny, my frien, is dead she ain't coming back, whatevva, get a life, move on, shit happens, what about me, but what can I do about that, I liked her, English, funny, pretty, and my mother beautiful, Patrik (sic) who I knew well, I loved him, African, black, funny, I liked him so much I accused him of murder and rape so there.

Why did I lie? don't ask me, I'm just me.
I am lying now about having lied and why for, what else can I do, come on now, gimme a break, how should I know why I lied, I lied but I'm telling the truth now, and it has nothing to do with the fact that I've been sentenced to 26 years of prison, nope, I'm telling the truth.

I hope everything is clear now.

PS: If Patrik wants to come over for the Christmas holidays he can too. Thanks Patrik, I like you very much how's your kid, alive? great.

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Last edited by zorba on Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:11 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Peter Popham Tweeted:



peterpopham Peter Popham
sober, detailed look at unanswered questions in #amandaknox case.
Moral: avoid becoming a criinal suspect in Italy. http://www.groundreport.com/Opinion/The ... s-/2941254



I can't believe Peter Popham is tweeting Ground Report articles by Joseph Bishop. If anyone had any doubts that Peter Popham is a fully fledged member of the FOA, let those be dispelled now.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Ergon wrote:
Michael wrote:
Ergon wrote:
A tongue in cheek prediction: Amanda Knox will be making a spontaneous declaration to repudiate all previous spontaneous declarations, including the one where she called Patrick, "the African boy who owns the pub called “Le Chic”

What's with all the subliminal racism that permeates this case?



To be fair, I'm suspecting 'boy' in that phrase is simply an awkward translation of the Italian word 'regazzo' which means young man or male youth. In Italy, the word 'boy' (although regazzo doesn't really mean 'boy') does not have the same connotations when used with black people as it does in English language countries, as they didn't grow up with the use of the word 'boy' in relation to black men in their cultural history. In fact, it's not a direct part of the UK's cultural history either or that of other non-US English speaking countries, it only resonates in the English speaking world because that world is aware of US cultural history.


How old is Patrick Lumumba? In his 40's? I was trying to be fair too, and did wonder if it was a subliminal connection with Rudy Guede? (Who was 20 yrs old at the time)



Yeah, he's certainly not a regazzo. That word can be used with guede and Sollecito, but certainly not Lumumba. Of course, when the police were taking Amanda's statement they didn't know how old Lumumba was.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 6:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

The pretend story about having just washed and blow dried her hair

Image
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 6:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

What in the world is the reporter writing in this picture ... "The aunt of a convicted murderer just stuck some fingers in her eye and is holding the phone between her thumb and index finger?" Is that news in Seattle?

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jester wrote:
The pretend story about having just washed and blow dried her hair

Image


For me, disturbing are, clockwise, photo number 4 all you need is to tell the truth for once, then, number 9: look we are still smashed from a mixture of dope, and even by our very actions are actually trying to hide away from the actual reality of what is taking place all around us. The affection was not comfort-zoned it was something else; hiding.

Number 10 always struck me as her seeing the things that took place right in front of her again, if you had nothing to do with it you would not be chewing your nails off looking like you did have everything to do with it.

Photo 8 always made me think she was being too helpful and the police really would have noticed that real fast, it's what they do, it wasn't what she did, she thought she was being unique and clever, they see it all the time, that's the difference. They are experienced in crime and criminals and the behavioural patterns and excuses seen, Knox, she had no idea.


6 and 11 to me show her looking truly devious and fake seems to be the main characteristic, a characteristic I find attributable to so many of the photos, both of her and Sollecito Soulless.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:58 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

and the central pic, is one I too have looked at very intensively, that one and a couple of others very similar, the look in her eyes says it all, not this one as much as another one taken a split second later, the hardness in her eyes is a look that goes along with the fake niceties presented at surface level at the very same moment, the btis she hides are still visible to me, or according to my viewing point and point of view

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jester wrote:
What in the world is the reporter writing in this picture ... "The aunt of a convicted murderer just stuck some fingers in her eye and is holding the phone between her thumb and index finger?" Is that news in Seattle?



Reporter: Well, she crying boss, how could they do this, she may have murdered that girl but, how could they be so cruel, look, her aunt has been reduced to tears, it's not fair, okay someone was murdered, but what does a murdered person want, is this fair, if you are murdered, then you are gone and others, even the murderer, must get on with their lives, it's simply unfair that a murderer should be brought to justice, look at the family, look what it is doing to them, it's not fair, surely, she ought to be let off, otherwise her family will be upset.

Well boo fucking hoo.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Found two more videos on Youtube, this time of Candy defending Mandy, uploaded by ... yes you guessed it, Mrs. MurderInItaly herself.

Notice the self-satisfied look on Mrs. Dempsey's face - she thinks she has finally made it to the top of the social pyramid and onto national TV, and not just making meatballs on some obscure cooking show, but advertising her 'award-winning' book on MSNBC. She can now add "fake legal analyst" to her résumé. :roll:



Has she become a permanent fixture on MSNBC?



This is my prediction on the future book sales - If the verdict is upheld, Mrs. Dempsey could end up with hundreds of unsold copies of her book molding in her garage, littering up storage space or collecting dust in the basement or attic. Still, a better destiny I guess than her book being pulped into toilet paper, tissues or kitchen towels.

fc-))
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Meredith Kercher Case: Are Things Now Looking Rosy For Amanda Knox?

11 Sep 2011

Michael

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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Oh my goodness! Candace: "I'm Italian American and whenever I go to Italy, I talk to Italians a lot." She's a moron! And what a voice! Did she have surgery on her nose and it screwed up her nasal cavities? What a horrible tone of voice! She gives me the willies. She's hideous.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

guermantes wrote:
Found two more videos on Youtube, this time of Candy defending Mandy, uploaded by ... yes you guessed it, Mrs. MurderInItaly herself.

Notice the self-satisfied look on Mrs. Dempsey's face - she thinks she has finally made it to the top of the social pyramid and onto national TV, and not just making meatballs on some obscure cooking show, but advertising her 'award-winning' book on MSNBC. She can now add "fake legal analyst" to her résumé. :roll:

This is my prediction on the future book sales - If the verdict is upheld, Mrs. Dempsey could end up with hundreds of unsold copies of her book molding in her garage, littering up storage space or collecting dust in the basement or attic. Still, a better destiny I guess than her book being pulped into toilet paper, tissues or kitchen towels.

fc-))

Funny you should say this :) but I walked into my local Book City today and there was Doug Preston's "The Monster of Florence" in the remainders section! Should I spend $8.99 on it? Nah, I got a double ice cream cone, chocolate and cappucino instead. Yum.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Thanks Jester. An excellent collection. In no other photos of Amanda, before and after, has her hair ever needed a shampoo more, never mind a blow dry. Yep, the devil's in the details.

The over explaining. The overexplaining also, about the blood on the faucet.

I still say, Amanda came up with that story about being there when Patrick murdered Mez, because she thought they did have evidence, and Raff had just thrown her under the bus.

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Offline stint7


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:45 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

guermantes wrote:
Found two more videos on Youtube, this time of Candy defending Mandy, uploaded by ... yes you guessed it, Mrs. MurderInItaly herself.

Notice the self-satisfied look on Mrs. Dempsey's face - she thinks she has finally made it to the top of the social pyramid and onto national TV, and not just making meatballs on some obscure cooking show, but advertising her 'award-winning' book on MSNBC. She can now add "fake legal analyst" to her résumé. :roll:


This is my prediction on the future book sales - If the verdict is upheld, Mrs. Dempsey could end up with hundreds of unsold copies of her book molding in her garage, littering up storage space or collecting dust in the basement or attic. Still, a better destiny I guess than her book being pulped into toilet paper, tissues or kitchen towels.
fc-))


You sure got the high points right about the Dempsey self produced you tubes.

1) Her face, particularly in the first vid looks like a plastic surgeon's absolute worst 'after' photo
2) Her voice is about as pleasant to hear as a 3rd grader class clown scraping fingernails across a blackboard
3) Her incessant nervous right hand hand waving is something taught to avoid during 4th grade speaking classes.
This because the nervous habit is very distracting.
This mannerism would be a gold mine for a body language expert explaining what not to do if you want people to believe falsehoods are stating.
4) Marriott did an excellent job in having the Interviewer ask nothing but powder puff questions straight from talking points, and never a follow up, only 'Oh yeses'
5) Nonetheless, it still was a very, very shoddy presentation overall.
This because Candace's habit of stopping talking, then suddenly thinking of more to add caused innumerable 'talkovers' from the Interviewer, that PR experts must shudder watching.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:04 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Candace looks almost as pretty as Tiny Tim

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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:01 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Why does adding makeup give her a clownlike appearance?

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Offline DanielSC


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:26 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Looks like a another Mignini hit job. I have a feeling we'll be seeing a lot of these come the arrival of the inevitable second guilty verdict: http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1052267
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:38 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:02 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Amanda Knox, and Ann Counlter's New McCarthyism
by SteveMoore September 11, 2011

GROUND REPORT


(Absolutely hilarious!)

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:18 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
Amanda Knox, and Ann Counlter's New McCarthyism
by SteveMoore September 11, 2011

GROUND REPORT


(Absolutely hilarious!)


Hi Michael,

Just clicked on the link and got the "Article does not exist" , looks like it has been pulled, ah i was so looking forward to a good ole rant at 007 as well..... :P
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:04 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jester wrote:
Why does adding makeup give her a clownlike appearance?



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:34 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

zorba wrote:
Jester wrote:
Why does adding makeup give her a clownlike appearance?




Well this is a true statement but let us not forget the cook is a self appointed leading mouth piece in the FOA travelling misinformation circus hence the CLOWN APPERANCE da-))

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:43 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

jeffski wrote:
Michael wrote:
Amanda Knox, and Ann Counlter's New McCarthyism
by SteveMoore September 11, 2011

GROUND REPORT


(Absolutely hilarious!)


Hi Michael,

Just clicked on the link and got the "Article does not exist" , looks like it has been pulled, ah i was so looking forward to a good ole rant at 007 as well..... :P



Oh, I'm getting it too now when I follow the link. It was one totally long "I was totally staunch republican and idolised you, until I read your article and I'm now turning democrat because your just like MaCarthy!" rant. I mean, it was rabid, apoplectic, foaming at the mouth stuff, so upset was he, he couldn't even spell her name right in the title...it was Basil Fawlty doing his nut gold...such a shame he thought better of it at the last minute and pulled it so nobody can read it (or Ground Report did). Oh...wait a minute, yes they can...since I kept it open in my browser....here it is :) :) :)


Amanda Knox, and Ann Counlter's New McCarthyism
by SteveMoore September 11, 2011



This is a difficult article to write. It’s kind of like being a cop and finding out that the burglar you’re looking for is your mom.



You see, I’m a lifelong Republican. I tell you this not because I want to pick a political fight, argue ideology, make you like me, or certainly make you dislike me. I tell you this because I am having an identity crisis. For years, you see, I watched Fox News, and for a while I even listened to Rush. I thought Ann Coulter was irreverent, a little over-the-top, but generally right, though I occasionally winced at her statements.



I was a career FBI Agent, the son of an FBI Agent. I was a SWAT team-member, a certified sniper, an undercover agent, and a helicopter pilot. I followed terrorism investigations overseas into Pakistan and Indonesia. I have (and wear) American flag lapel pins. I own guns. I haven’t voted for a Democrat for president since….well, ever. I am a member of the National Rifle Association, and I am an NRA certified Law Enforcement Firearms Instructor. I do not buy carbon credits. I have never even sat in a Suburu. My current car has 300 unapologetic horsepower. I love animals but enjoy a good steak.



I consider myself a Christian. I believe God loves me in spite of my weaknesses and failures, not because of their absence. I depend on God daily to teach me, to give me guidance, and to shape me into a person who cares more about others than I do myself. I am not there yet, by the way, but that’s not an excuse not to keep trying.



And now, to my amazement, I’ve just found out that I’m a “Liberal.”



This comes as a terrific surprise to me, but if Ann Coulter says it, it must be true, as she’s never wrong. In fact, not only am I a liberal, but according to her, I’m suffering from a “psychological disorder.” According to her, I’m also “demonic” because I “intentionally defend the guilty and impugn the innocent,” I “side with barbarians,” because “a fair and just system of law challenges [my] hegemony as a “judge of the universe.” As you may understand, this has come as quite a shock to me. How did this happen? How could I have been so wrong about myself?



Apparently, this radical change happened when I discovered that an innocent person had been convicted of murder and I tried to do something about it. Maybe it happened to you, too. (If so, don’t tell Ann Coulter.)



In an article on September 7, 2011, mean-spiritedly entitled “Amanda Knox: The New Mumia,” Coulter uses lists of long-discredited, flat-earth-society “facts” to postulate the guilt of Amanda Knox, the American College student railroaded for murder in Italy in 2007. Coulter initially branded Knox as guilty several years ago, based on Knox’s alleged purchase of bleach on the morning after the murder of her roommate. This type of American press savagery is partially why Knox is still in prison four years later. Because this alleged bleach purchase never happened: No bleach was ever found, no records of any such purchase exist, the checkout employee flatly stated that Knox was not in the store that morning; and regardless, the crime scene that Knox is wrongly accused of causing was not cleaned with bleach. I knew these things about the bleach at the time Coulter said them, but I simply chalked it up to the fact that investigating violent crime wasn’t a hobby for me. But I was still disappointed, because Coulter and I shared some conservative political views and I trusted her. (Now that I realize I am a ‘liberal’ I am not sure how this could have been possible.)



After Coulter’s unfounded bleach “fact” was shown to be apocryphal, she fell into a long silence about the case. I naturally assumed that she had learned that the facts on which she based her conclusion were wrong, and that she therefore changed her opinion and was weighing how to best help this innocent girl. Instead, Coulter fired back this week with a list of even more incorrect, discredited facts; an article simply breathtaking in its naiveté. The problem with this isn’t simply that people more knowledgeable about the crime than her (lawyers, FBI agents, judges, scientists, DNA experts, senators, FBI profilers, almost a dozen members of the Italian Parliament, Pulitzer-prize winning journalists and New York Times Best-Selling authors) have all come to the conclusion that Knox is innocent. The problem is that Coulter is quoting “facts” discredited over a year ago. The other problem is that that if you disagree with her, you are evil.



Coulter alleges in her 9/7 masterwork; “Now liberals are howling that the DNA evidence was "contaminated,…” For the readers’ edification, here is a short list of just some of the ‘liberals’ who have spoken out in favor of Amanda Knox’s innocence: Megyn Kelly, Shepard Smith of Fox News, Bill O’Reilly, Geraldo Rivera, and Donald Trump, who recently attended a tree-hugging, “pinko” rally held by a group calling themselves the “Tea Party.” In fact, a recent meeting between me and another “liberal” who believes Knox was railroaded was held at the Ronald Reagan Library in Simi Valley, California, because both of us are inexplicable admirers of the man.



In her magnificently naïve article of the 7th, Coulter quotes more than a dozen “facts,” all of which she says proves Knox’s guilt, and all of which have been thoroughly deconstructed. If not, the fact that the DNA evidence was false would not have any bearing on the case, and the release of Knox would not be imminent. I have no intention at this point of going point by point through Coulter’s charges, which appear to say something, but hide the real truth. I would rather argue with a 9/11 conspiracy theorist. (Or have dental surgery in Somalia.) There are only so many times I can stand to say the same thing to a stone wall. If you care to see the real facts of the Knox case, visit injusticeinperugia.org.



But what is more striking than Coulter’s incredible ignorance about the case is her startlingly bigoted assessment of anybody who disagrees with her. She leaves the intelligent reader speechless and just a little afraid.



This shouldn’t surprise us, really. Coulter is becoming a pariah even to conservatives. Until 2001, for instance, Coulter was a columnist for National Review Online, a sharply conservative publication. But she was fired. Why? Jonah Goldberg, editor at large of NRO said at the time; “We did not ‘fire’ Ann for what she wrote…we ended the relationship because she behaved with a total lack of professionalism, friendship and loyalty.”



Coulter’s syndicated column was dropped by the Arizona Daily Star in August 2005, because, “Many readers find her shrill, bombastic and mean-spirited. And those are the words used by readers who identified themselves as conservatives.”







It’s not simply the bigotry inherent in her statements that is disturbing. It is the propaganda-like nature of her tactics. Propaganda is defined as “Information of an intentionally misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view.” The best propaganda is that which has the ring of truth, but hides the salient facts. In that way, propaganda is like a bikini; what it shows appears to be important. But what it hides is crucial.



In short, propaganda is not defined so much by what it says, as by what it hides. For instance, Coulter never mentions (conveniently) that the prosecutor in the Knox case has been convicted and sentenced to prison for malfeasance, and was under indictment at the time he prosecuted Knox. His crime? The abuse of the rights of innocent suspects and random, vicious threats and accusations. You would think this germane to the conversation, would you not? But Coulter leaves that gem out. As Coulter herself said in 2002, “I don’t pretend to be impartial or balanced….”



Coulter also conveniently omits that the loss of the DNA evidence she blames on American liberals was actually at the hands of court-selected Italian (not Italian-American) DNA scholars designated as independent experts by the Italian judge. The only American officially involved in the case is Amanda Knox.



But still, it is “liberals” who are trying to spring a ‘guilty’ Amanda. As an example; Coulter spews the following; “From Tawana Brawley, Mumia and the Central Park rapists, to the Duke Lacrosse players and Karl Rove, liberals are always on the wrong side of a criminal case. A few times could be a coincidence; every time is evidence of a psychological disorder.” Let’s be clear on this; I was outraged by the Brawley lies, I believe Mumia was guilty, and I find justice and immense peace in the fact that murderer Leonard Peltier will die in prison. But I also know from a quarter-century in the FBI that most criminal cases do not split on party lines, they split on facts. On evidence. Only opinion splits on party lines. Opinion should never condemn someone in court.







As described in her (eponymous?) book "Demonic," Coulter alleges that “liberals defend the guilty and impugn the innocent not only because they side with barbarians, but because a fair and just system of law challenges their hegemony as judges of the universe.” This hurts me now that I find that I am a liberal. And because I have friends who are liberal. It also hurts me because it’s stupid. It’s a statement that might fit some (on both sides), but as a blanket statement, it is pure bigotry. (Let alone the fact that in the Duke case, Coulter is still defending the guilty and impugning the innocent, even though the facts are well known.) Not surprising from a woman who famously stated in the British newspaper, “The Guardian,” “[The United States] would be a much better country if women didn’t vote.” Maybe it would be a better country if this particular woman wouldn’t communicate.



What Coulter has written bears more similarity to a drive-by shooting than it does to a journalistic endeavor. Denigrating and dehumanizing those who disagree with her is really not original, it was used with flair in the early 1950’s when Senator Joseph McCarthy went on a reactionary rampage using as his antagonist not “liberals” but “communists.” But the methods were the same; if you disagreed with McCarthy, you were obviously a communist. And like McCarthy’s rampage, innocent, real people are getting hurt.










It is to the conservative movement’s shame that they did not ‘self-police’ the problems with Joseph McCarthy. I hope to become a conservative again, notwithstanding Ann Coulter’s pronouncement. But now I know how peaceful Muslims feel about Al Qaeda. If I, as a conservative, stay silent about Coulter and other demagogues, then the ideas in which I truly believe will be viewed not on their merit, but by the people who espouse them. I don’t want people to think of Ann Coulter when they hear the word “conservative” any more than many “liberals” want be defined by Michael Moore (I hope.) I also wish that when people heard the name “Jesus” they didn’t think of politics.










Maybe Coulter’s own words will do the trick. It took Edward R. Murrow, other senators and McCarthy’s own excesses to ruin him. Murrow’s words about McCarthy seem strangely prescient in this instance:










“We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty. We must remember always that accusation is not proof and that conviction depends upon evidence and due process of law. We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason, if we dig deep in our history and our doctrine, and remember that we are not descended from fearful men — not from men who feared to write, to associate, to speak and to defend causes that were, for the moment, unpopular.”










Finally though, the most appropriate rebuke for McCarthy, and again, strangely fitting for Coulter, was a moral rebuke, and came from Chief Counsel of the United States Army Joseph Welch during a senate hearing. Welch had recommended a young attorney to work for the very committee that McCarthy was using as a career springboard. But McCarthy found out that the attorney was a member of the “Lawyers Guild,” which McCarthy maintained was a communist front. He then attacked this young attorney in public, not with real facts, but with innuendo, attempting to destroy his career to further his own; a type of political vampirism. Finally, Welch had had enough. With deep emotion, Welch rebuked McCarthy during a hearing in one of the most dramatic moments in congressional history.










“Until this moment, Senator, I think I never really gauged your cruelty, or your recklessness. Fred Fisher is a young man who went to the Harvard Law School and came into my firm and is starting what looks to be a brilliant career with us…..”










“Let us not assassinate this lad further, Senator. You’ve done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?”










Welch speaks eloquently for us today. Until Coulter’s September 7th article in which she attempts to sacrifice an innocent girl’s future on the altar of the god who would guarantee her own, I had really never gauged her cruelty and her recklessness. Amanda Knox is a fine young woman who was railroaded by a deranged prosecutor in Italy in a failed attempt to save his own career. Ann Coulter is now using that tragedy to further her own career. So now we are left with just one question;










“Have you no decency, Ms. Coulter? At long last, have you no sense of decency?”

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:51 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Sigh...Seattle Pi's starting polls on whether Knox should come home...http://blog.seattlepi.com/thebigblog/20 ... o-seattle/


Criminal trials are a democracy, dinch ya know...

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Offline jeffski


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:58 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Wow just wow, this guy has gone man, i knew he was on the edge but jesus he needs help "now", no wonder that was pulled, even by ground reports standards its nothing more or nothing less than a mad mans crazy rant, The part about Ann coulter "using this tragedy to further her own career" talk about calling the kettle black or what.....

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Offline jeffski


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:08 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
Sigh...Seattle Pi's starting polls on whether Knox should come home...http://blog.seattlepi.com/thebigblog/20 ... o-seattle/


Criminal trials are a democracy, dinch ya know...


wtf)

What a load of BS, It’s basically a rerun of the media frenzy that occurred around the time of the first trials verdict announcement, I really can’t see any other outcome than a confirmation of guilt.

Jeffski

“BE JUST AND FEAR NOT”
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Offline jeffski


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:11 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Thanks Michael for the above.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:21 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

jeffski wrote:
Michael wrote:
Sigh...Seattle Pi's starting polls on whether Knox should come home...http://blog.seattlepi.com/thebigblog/20 ... o-seattle/


Criminal trials are a democracy, dinch ya know...


wtf)

What a load of BS, It’s basically a rerun of the media frenzy that occurred around the time of the first trials verdict announcement, I really can’t see any other outcome than a confirmation of guilt.

Jeffski

“BE JUST AND FEAR NOT”


The can't even get the basic facts right when introducing their poll:

Quote:
This week, an appeals judge denied a prosecutor’s request to refute a report condemning DNA analysis in the original trial as unreliable.


Since when did the appeals judge deny the prosecution (or anybody else who was part of the process) the ability to refute the C & V report? They refuted it...C & V were cross-examined by both prosecution and victims, the prosecution and victims were even permitted to put their own experts on the stand to refute the report and did so.

What was refused, was the request to re-test the knife for the DNA C & V found on it but didn't test. When people don't even have a basic understanding of the case and then ask people to take a poll on it, it's a tragic day for the ideal of an 'informed public'.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:55 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

tried to get through it ..Hawaii Steve Five O

no wonder they got shot of him

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

(( OT OT ))

News is coming through that there's been an explosion at a French nuclear power plant. There have been deaths/injuries. Risk of radiation leak.

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
(( OT OT ))

News is coming through that there's been an explosion at a French nuclear power plant. There have been deaths/injuries. Risk of radiation leak.


But this is so important, Michael. Washington State and the entire west coast is getting unprecedented levels of radiation from the Fukushima disaster, my friends live close by Sellafield in the UK, and my wife left Hungary before Chernobyl, but thousands of women in her city came down with cancer.

We need to change, but are short of solutions.
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Please give a spoiler Alert when posting pics of Ms. Dempsey :)

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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

I watched a documentary about Bikini Island on the weekend, which detailed the consequnces of 16 - 23 (+/-) nuclear or hydrogen bomb tests carried out by the US between 1946 and 1958. The fall out from that was far worse than thought at the time, and there is still cesium-137 contamination today in the soil, vegetation and people on the Island. Although the radiation leaks caused by the earthquake and tidal wave in Japan are serious, it certainly isn't the worst case of poisoning our planet. My understanding is that we have radiation buildup in our bodies throughout our lives and many, at some point, have levels that begin to mutate our cells resulting in cancer. All we can do is hope for the best and avoid eating anything that comes from Japan for a very long time.

http://toxipedia.org/display/wanmec/Ato ... kini+Atoll
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Ergon wrote:
Michael wrote:
(( OT OT ))

News is coming through that there's been an explosion at a French nuclear power plant. There have been deaths/injuries. Risk of radiation leak.


But this is so important, Michael. Washington State and the entire west coast is getting unprecedented levels of radiation from the Fukushima disaster, my friends live close by Sellafield in the UK, and my wife left Hungary before Chernobyl, but thousands of women in her city came down with cancer.

We need to change, but are short of solutions.



We need to stop using MOX fuel for a start...

The place of the explosion in France, it's in a waste MOX fuel centre.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

You know, for police and archaeologists it's very easy to determine if human skeletal remains are more than 70 years old. All human beings on the planet living post the mid 1940's contain strontium-90, a by-product/pollutant in our atmosphere caused by the atomic bomb. Every single one of us carries the mark of atomic explosions in our bones, yet you won't find it in a single human being from the millions of years before the atomic bomb as it doesn't occur naturally. This of course, also applies to animals. Nuclear explosions and accidents effect every single one of us, no matter where we are on the planet.


strontium-90

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Steve Moore's rant's back up :) :) :)

Not sure if he's edited it or not though.

http://www.groundreport.com/Business/Am ... sm/2941293

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

capealadin wrote:
Please give a spoiler Alert when posting pics of Ms. Dempsey :)


Will do, the sight of her very face is as salt to a slug.

However she'll love the compliment; although, granted, Tiny Tim ''is'' the more handsome of the pair.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

I seem to be sensitive to the tone of someone's voice. Even as a child, I recoiled from voices that were overly nasal. The cook has a voice that makes me want to jump back and stick my fingers in my ears. I've noticed it more in women that have had surgery to modify the shape of their nose. They seem to have a voice that makes me think they need to drink some tea or swallow because the voice is thick and cranky sounding.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

(( OT OT ))

Gemma Hayter murder: three of disabled woman's 'friends' jailed for life

Two others also given long sentences after Hayter, who had learning disabilities, was viciously beaten and left to die

THE GUARDIAN

The verdict for this horrible crime has just come in. I'm posting it because I'm struck by a few similarities to Meredith's case.

1. Gemma Hayter was murdered by people she knew and considered to be her friends.

2. The murderers consisted of both males and females.

3. The murderers ages ranged from 19 to their early 20's.

4. Gemma was deliberately humiliated on top of the violence and she was also stripped.

5. Gemma was also cut with a knife.

6. What leaped out at me the most though, was that they took her moblie phone (putting it down the toilet) so she couldn't call for help.

7. The female member of the gang got especially singled out by the judge as being a nasty piece of work. That female (Booth) described herself as Gemma's 'best friend'.

8. No clear motive, it was done for 'fun'.

(strangely, there's also a mop in this story)

On the judge's words to Booth:

Quote:
She singled out Booth, of Rugby – who had described Miss Hayter as her best friend – as a "nasty piece of work".

"Over the years you treated Gemma Hayter like a toy to be picked up and put down, dependent, I suspect, on whether there was a gap in your miserable life which she could fill," the judge said.

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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jester wrote:
I seem to be sensitive to the tone of someone's voice. Even as a child, I recoiled from voices that were overly nasal. The cook has a voice that makes me want to jump back and stick my fingers in my ears. I've noticed it more in women that have had surgery to modify the shape of their nose. They seem to have a voice that makes me think they need to drink some tea or swallow because the voice is thick and cranky sounding.



Yeah, she's really hard to listen to. Nice Freudian slip at 1:50 in guermantes' second video btw: "the co-dependants...er co-defendants".
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jester wrote:



Right & that's just it, nobody can tell me she was not aware of how she would be appearing, that shirt is designed to display a rack of greeting cards, hello, how are you.

That is exactly what I mean(t), this woman goes out of her way to attract attention to that very element, and then half-heartedly complains, everything she says is fake, just like her expressions.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
Jester wrote:
guermantes wrote:
Hello All,

has anyone seen this video before? Amanda's parents on British morning show "This Morning". I stumbled upon it on Youtube quite by chance. It was uploaded on July 20, 2011 by InjusticeInPerugia, by the way. I hadn't been around much in July and August so I might have missed it.

It's a rare occasion that you see both Chris and Edda Mellas interviewed together. I know we are all tired of listening to their endless boring lies, embellishments of facts and exaggerations of their daughter's "virtues". Don't watch the video if you have a weak heart. :)

Btw, I tried to search this board for the link and couldn't find it. I also notice that the "search" feature on the "cloned" board has been disabled and is no longer available. Does anyone know why?


That interviewer was polite, but I don't think he was drinking the kool aid.

As for the search feature ... this is just a guess ... but there was a lot of cross over in the links when the board was twinned, and it's possible that the twins were intertwined in the search engine as well. That might explain the disabling ... although I just speculating.



No, it's because the 'technical admin' has turned off the search feature for guests (it should still work for signed in members). He wanted to do the same here, when he was here, the idea being to reduce demand on server load. But, since searches didn't make any unacceptable demands on server load here, I said no. I consider the search feature to be an essential requirement for the board, since part of our primary mandate is as an information source for the public and media. As the board grows further and evermore data is added, the search feature becomes even more essential. A board is useless as an information source if nobody is able to find anything. If you take away the search function, then you take away one of the main reasons for PMF to exist. Since he is now free to do whatever he wants on the board he cloned, he's obviously put what he wanted to do here, into practice there. That is what happens when you put an IT guy in a position of making executive decisions about the most fundamental workings of a site. They prioritise their quest for (unnecessary) technical perfection over the ethos of the board and the very reason for the site to exist, the very embodiment of 'completely missing the point'.



Sire, Michael, I know of the good fellow of whom you doth speak, he was all very helpful to me, as long as I accepted every word he said as God's law, this in relation to Italian law and related matters, as soon as I disagreed with Mr Jolly Nice Pants he became very uptight indeed, whereupon I put him in my little ''I do not like you man ya bastard know it all'' - book, and after all, for a non-native Italian speaker such as he is, it was more than a raspberry trifle over the top.

On matters Italian then, I'd rather have it from an Italian, not a Portuguese chap pretending to be Mr Italiano.

A very bossy old bean indeed.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
You know, for police and archaeologists it's very easy to determine if human skeletal remains are more than 70 years old. All human beings on the planet living post the mid 1940's contain strontium-90, a by-product/pollutant in our atmosphere caused by the atomic bomb. Every single one of us carries the mark of atomic explosions in our bones, yet you won't find it in a single human being from the millions of years before the atomic bomb as it doesn't occur naturally. This of course, also applies to animals. Nuclear explosions and accidents effect every single one of us, no matter where we are on the planet.


strontium-90


After the nuclear testing in the atmosphere, there was a huge increase in childhood cancers in the 50's and 60's.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:46 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Amanda Knox Prepares to Return to Seattle!

THE SEATTLE SALMON

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
Amanda Knox Prepares to Return to Seattle!

THE SEATTLE SALMON


A very funny site, thanks, Micheal :)

"The Junction-Amanda Knox got the good news last week that she may be free to return home by Thanksgiving in time for her to slash the turkey. If the appeals proceedings continue to go her way, she will be cleared of murder charges on a technicality and able to return to her beloved Seattle to settle back into a normal life. Her friends and family are already looking for ways to make her welcome, but also ensure they are never alone with her"
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

AMANDA KNOX: “PRISONER OF WAR!”
by DENVER September 13, 2011

GROUND REPORT

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:58 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Seeking True Justice for Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, Not Personal Gain for the Prosecutors
by Jleznek September 12, 2011

GROUND REPORT

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Knox's Dad Optimistic She'll Go Free
The father of American student Amanda Knox says prosecutors have "no case left," after an Italian judge rejected a request for new DNA testing of evidence.
Reporter: CNN


WIBW

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Ten Examples Of How The Former Campus Cop Steve Moore Serially Mischaracterizes The Case

Posted by The Machine

TRUE JUSTICE FOR MEREDITH KERCHER

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
guermantes wrote:
AMANDA KNOX: "THE TRUTH WILL EMERGE"

Clander wrote:

http://www.libero-news.it/news/818162/C%20...%20parla.html

AK via her lawyer:

"Mi dispiace Per Patrick Lumumba, non ho capito cosa mi sia preso, avevo paura, ero disorientata: è vero, ho mentito, ma non ricordo perché."

"I'm sorry for Patrick Lumumba. I don't know what got into me, I was scared, I was disoriented: it's true, I lied, but I do not remember why."

Posted by Clander: Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:43 pm
------------------------------------------

Hmm, she now admits she lied. The truth is the "ugly" truth isn't pretty! The best truth she can remember? Again???



THIS is the important part:

Quote:
it's true, I lied, but I do not remember why



It's a case of "Oops, don't know why I did that". Well, wait minute...I thought the reason was clear...she was harranged by the cops and they put the idea into her head. NOW she doesn't know why she did it or how the idea got there...Mamma mia.


"I'm sorry for Patrick Lumumba"

not

"Patrick, I'm sorry I lied and implicated you as the murderer.....I'm sorry you lost your business because of this...I'm sorry I did nothing while you were imprisoned for two weeks knowing full well that you were innocent...I'm sorry that for two weeks you were dubbed a 'murderer' in the eyes of the world...I'm sorry that your wife your and baby were deprived of your love and protection for two weeks...............I'm sorry for being a rubbish employee.....Thank you for giving me a job.

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Offline max


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:57 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Gosh, who turned websleuths into JREF 2 ? Was it that boring at JREF 1 ? :mrgreen:
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:49 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Hi Jester,

I see your name here, so, I'm saying hello. Awoke at 5.30, tired is not the word, I make people who have that sleeping disorder look like insomniacs.


Open letter from the cell.
Dear Mom,

You shouldn't have made me look like a liar the other day in court, I mean ta say, dense, ya look like a pine forest. How am I sposed ta rimembuh (sic) what I was thinking.

Look I'm greatfull (si) (sic + sic + sick) you gave me a hand in my time of need, if I did tell the not truth it was probably for some reason.. that I fail to re memb er, you know how it is, so I was tired, didn't see what all the fuss was about, did nobody consider I needed a room and had to do my life, my life.. Anyhow mom, I will be telling the untruth rehashed.
Greetings to my young siblings, they must be so pleased my untruths have led to the ruin of their childhoods, PS will they be interviewed too?

Signed Foxy

(the one who thinks she's pretty and that's why she called herself Fox, everything pretty much did revolve around that one little idiosyncrasy)
PPS: and don't tell no-one I call myself that and that's what I think I am

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:00 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

I'm here ... completely discombobulated because I had a lecture where I had to teach online and in class simultaneously - a completely new thing - and it felt like a complete disaster. It is extremely distracting having to stop mid-sentence to address an online student with technical difficulties, then pick up in the middle of the sentence and carry on ... very weird experience. I felt like I had to sit still so the online students could see me while I was talking ... something else I do not normally do. I'm not sure I like this futuristic world. It felt like my train of thought was so interupted that eventually I was just winging it, and I don't particularly like winging it. I was winging it. It was a bit like being hit with text messages that I can't ignore throughout the lecture ... sure hope things go more smoothly on Thursday!

That Knoxy Fox should stay in prison where she belongs. I'm a little stunned at all the media releases about how she is packing her bags ready to bolt for the US.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:11 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

max wrote:
Gosh, who turned websleuths into JREF 2 ? Was it that boring at JREF 1 ? :mrgreen:


I guess it should be obvious now that there is only a handful of people following the case - they just post on several different forums, thus giving the Free the Fox crowd the illusion that this case is following by many.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:44 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jester wrote:
max wrote:
Gosh, who turned websleuths into JREF 2 ? Was it that boring at JREF 1 ? :mrgreen:

I guess it should be obvious now that there is only a handful of people following the case - they just post on several different forums, thus giving the Free the Fox crowd the illusion that this case is following by many.

That and the need to jump on mr. Fulcanelli with at least 10 at a time ;)
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:25 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jester wrote:
I'm here ... completely discombobulated because I had a lecture where I had to teach online and in class simultaneously - a completely new thing - and it felt like a complete disaster. It is extremely distracting having to stop mid-sentence to address an online student with technical difficulties, then pick up in the middle of the sentence and carry on ... very weird experience. I felt like I had to sit still so the online students could see me while I was talking ... something else I do not normally do. I'm not sure I like this futuristic world. It felt like my train of thought was so interrupted that eventually I was just winging it, and I don't particularly like winging it. I was winging it. It was a bit like being hit with text messages that I can't ignore throughout the lecture ... sure hope things go more smoothly on Thursday!

That Knoxy Fox should stay in prison where she belongs. I'm a little stunned at all the media releases about how she is packing her bags ready to bolt for the US.


Yes, if I manage to get me a different way of earning a crust, I will probably distance myself from everything internet and gadgetry-like, much in the same way one would when walking through the rice paddies of life and coming upon a cobra.

That what you did sounds schizoid-making.
I expect your pupils bend back rulers and shoot paperbacked chewed up but still fresh gum direction of your forehead. Pay attention teeeeet cher.
Tired is not the word for what I was yesterday. I worked all night, then tried to get further with my tax sorting activities, then went to pick my daughter and grandson up, slept in my van while waiting for them, slept.. all of about 5 or 10 minutes, then went to the garage picked her car up, with the heating fixed by them and paid for by me (hence the working like a dog and hard day's nights), popped into IKEA, got some ravioli and soup , discarded both as they tasted worse than I imagine shit would if the stench of it is anything to go by (notice I did not say tastes like crap for how could one know?). Went to my renovated chicken shack home, fixed her speakers, and the minute I was done and they were in the car ready to go, it rained cats and entire hogs. I came in, had a beer, ended up throwing that away as well, after eating some pasta, then head-on collision-ed into my feathery nest.

Awoke upon the hour of fivery halfway tween the sixes, proceeded two step-wise into the kitchen created area, designed a bucket of coffee, then went back to sleep again, whereupon I didst awaken, not to the sound of music or mother Mary but to the sound of some not far-off drill bugger person, somewhere.. as usual.

Here I does sit, still feeling like a decompressed deep-sea welder (saw it on the telly yesterday) glad that they decompressed him on time before he became paralysed from the bodily reaction and the creation of gasses, and dying thereupon, with another swig washery amount of coffee. Not yet washed down, I breath, lift my head up anvil-wise, and see the day, lovely, off to the library. But I must share this letter from the mom with a gun to pick, or a bone to dig or whatevva she thinks she is doing


Dear Daughter,

Yes I know you is in the jail, but, let me say but... it ain't my fault you is in there is it, or is it. Oh I see, you are blaming me now, do you have any idea how shit I felt stood there in full force gale of a court, you denying that ya called me up at god damned 4 in the middle of the bastard night? Well, I can tell ya, it didn't make me look pretty, in fact at that moment I could have entered a competition, with your friend Candace ''Tiny'' Tim. I can't know everything and why didn't you say that you would deny ever having made such a call when by now the whole world knows ya did, the whole world, everyone except you knows, gurl... it gets hard ta keep up with ya. Now ya pal Mad Max or Pax whatevva her name is, used your predicament to pretend she hates being away out of Seattle and resident of late in sunny Italy, damn, she is having a hard time, as long as she doesn't go putting it about like you did she'll be fine, though nobody ever took a second look at her here, she is enjoying herself there. Seems she is not boycotting pasta or Italian food but I never did like the girl with the eyes of a shithouse rat.
Muh hus...band is staying with the retired doctor guy, the English oddfellow (seems everyone with any kind of a problem with authority is and has gotten in on this case = come on then you poor wretch, get it out of your system you little fucking sissy, ah, is that better now = fake attracts fake), enjoying the good Italian stuff whilst slagging off all things Italian at the same time... nice guy, meet em everywhere, they must just love him in that village, except nobody reads anything he says as they don't speak English, in all truth, they are probably blessed, ignoring him and his mare of a wee wife instinctively.

But don't mind me.
By the way you ought not keep winking at that little sap Sollecito, it makes ya look like you are taking the piss out of the entire thing, winking in court is the same as wanking in court, don't do it.

Okay must dash as we're organising a private barbecue for Mr Marriot, he studies piggery in general and was writing a thesis on Porkers called The Low Levels to Which Some Will Fail to Stop and other Pig-Like Tales of Deranged Humanism.

So we've bought a whole hog for him in thanks for all the lies he told.

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Last edited by zorba on Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:18 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:42 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

max wrote:
Jester wrote:
max wrote:
Gosh, who turned websleuths into JREF 2 ? Was it that boring at JREF 1 ? :mrgreen:

I guess it should be obvious now that there is only a handful of people following the case - they just post on several different forums, thus giving the Free the Fox crowd the illusion that this case is following by many.

That and the need to jump on mr. Fulcanelli with at least 10 at a time ;)


With a Fulcanelli and a big enough lever we can move the world :)
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

The Fulcanelli guy is Chris Mellas.

He took the identity off of someone who was upsetting the FOA lot by arguing points against the idea that Knox is innocent.

So Mellas, I think, took the identity to try to intimidate the person who was using the name Fulcanelli into stopping what he said or stopping the original Fulcanelli from getting his points across by creating a copy of that ID and writing all kinds of nonsense under it, the idea being to confuse people about Fulcanelli.

Now these brilliant schemes are as yet without the ingenious ideas of The Potty Pants Club run by Michelle Moore, between them, her and her hero husband Stevie Five O, they've caused Harvard to shut its gates, doors and windows and declare we had it all wrong, until Michelle came along we assumed brains were needed for thinking but she proved us wrong and so did Steve I've-got-guns Moore, we've given up and are in counselling said a spokesman for Harvard, Michelle runs counselling service and we joined up, in our name she seeks advice from da Lord every Tuesday eve-nin and sessions are held in the hall of their church, there is much laying on of hands, deals and merriment too, with her singing Michelle Sings, her album, then Michelle carries out a few exorcisms and Steve collects the dough at the door, well in truth, in order to get out they charge money.

If there could be anything more childish as exercises go, I'd like to know what, as this is so truly backward. Yet, it's typical of the two (possibly 3 or 4) people that the FOA club is comprised of.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:15 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

zorba wrote:
The Fulcanelli guy is Chris Mellas.

He took the identity off of someone who was upsetting the FOA lot by arguing points against the idea that Knox is innocent.

So Mellas, I think, took the identity to try to intimidate the person who was using the name Fulcanelli into stopping what he said or stopping the original Fulcanelli from getting his points across by creating a copy of that ID and writing all kinds of nonsense under it, the idea being to confuse people about Fulcanelli.

Now these brilliant schemes are as yet without the ingenious ideas of The Potty Pants Club run by Michelle Moore, between them, her and her hero husband Stevie Five O, they've caused Harvard to shut its gates, doors and windows and declare we had it all wrong, until Michelle came along we assumed brains were needed for thinking but she proved us wrong and so did Steve I've-got-guns Moore, we've given up and are in counselling said a spokesman for Harvard, Michelle runs counselling service and we joined up, in our name she seeks advice from da Lord every Tuesday eve-nin and sessions are held in the hall of their church, there is much laying on of hands, deals and merriment too, with her singing Michelle Sings, her album, then Michelle carries out a few exorcisms and Steve collects the dough at the door, well in truth, in order to get out they charge money.

If there could be anything more childish as exercises go, I'd like to know what, as this is so truly backward. Yet, it's typical of the two (possibly 3 or 4) people that the FOA club is comprised of.



No, that's the handle 'Michael Fulcanelli' and that was cloned from the real Fulcanelli. The real Fulcanelli is not Mellas and he's not a FOAKer. It is the real Fulcanelli they are talking about. It is the real Fulcanelli that is posting at Websleuths.

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Offline dgfred


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

max wrote:
Gosh, who turned websleuths into JREF 2 ? Was it that boring at JREF 1 ? :mrgreen:


Must have been sc-)) .

First it was InSession... then Websleuths nw) . Still there are only a very few, and easy to spot. One or two post for the most part and you can recognize the common groupie hoop-) and mental gymnastics regarding explaining/excusing away evidence. mop-)
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:47 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

max wrote:
Jester wrote:
max wrote:
Gosh, who turned websleuths into JREF 2 ? Was it that boring at JREF 1 ? :mrgreen:

I guess it should be obvious now that there is only a handful of people following the case - they just post on several different forums, thus giving the Free the Fox crowd the illusion that this case is following by many.

That and the need to jump on mr. Fulcanelli with at least 10 at a time ;)


Mob/gang mentality is rather common there ... lots of uneducated types that "would of definately" used the National Enquirer as a reliable source. I cringe every time I read something like "would of" or "definately". I suspect that any attempts to politely correct this to "would have" or "definitely" would result in having the comment deleted. As long as the mob thinks that they're amongst the brightest of the brightest, they can happily enjoy their group-think without concerning themselves with facts.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

O.T. ... Zorba, I can empathize with wanting to escape from our techno world. I've been thinking that in 2 years my youngest should be independent and in some ways I just want to disappear into the woods, or some equally Luddite like community, to live a simple live. I suspect that a lot of people that have to adapt annually to the latest, greatest rearrangement of technology (it's not necessarily better anymore, just different) have had enough. After yesterday's schizo experience I'm tempted to throw in the towel and admit that I've had enough. My supervisor was telling me that I should incorporate moodle into my lecture. Really? I should be in class presenting a video of me teaching? For what purpose? Benefit? The answer: I could have a little inclass break while teaching and be available to answer questions afterwards. When teaching deconstructs to the point of me showing video of me teaching, something is whacked. It seems to be the mentality of grabbing a new technology for the sake of grabbing it, without questioning why. It reminds me of the texting with phone tool. We can use the phone to speak the words, or we can use the phone to type out every single word we have to say on a tiny little keypad ... which makes more sense? Speaking makes more sense to me, but not so for so many. With each day, that job of flipping burgers looks more attractive.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
zorba wrote:
The Fulcanelli guy is Chris Mellas.

He took the identity off of someone who was upsetting the FOA lot by arguing points against the idea that Knox is innocent.

So Mellas, I think, took the identity to try to intimidate the person who was using the name Fulcanelli into stopping what he said or stopping the original Fulcanelli from getting his points across by creating a copy of that ID and writing all kinds of nonsense under it, the idea being to confuse people about Fulcanelli.

Now these brilliant schemes are as yet without the ingenious ideas of The Potty Pants Club run by Michelle Moore, between them, her and her hero husband Stevie Five O, they've caused Harvard to shut its gates, doors and windows and declare we had it all wrong, until Michelle came along we assumed brains were needed for thinking but she proved us wrong and so did Steve I've-got-guns Moore, we've given up and are in counselling said a spokesman for Harvard, Michelle runs counselling service and we joined up, in our name she seeks advice from da Lord every Tuesday eve-nin and sessions are held in the hall of their church, there is much laying on of hands, deals and merriment too, with her singing Michelle Sings, her album, then Michelle carries out a few exorcisms and Steve collects the dough at the door, well in truth, in order to get out they charge money.

If there could be anything more childish as exercises go, I'd like to know what, as this is so truly backward. Yet, it's typical of the two (possibly 3 or 4) people that the FOA club is comprised of.



No, that's the handle 'Michael Fulcanelli' and that was cloned from the real Fulcanelli. The real Fulcanelli is not Mellas and he's not a FOAKer. It is the real Fulcanelli they are talking about. It is the real Fulcanelli that is posting at Websleuths.


I have to say that it's very refreshing to see the rapid fire response to the rampant misconceptions there.
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Offline dgfred


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

The frustrating part is that it will only take a few post after the misconceptions are corrected for them to go right back to those SAME old misconceptions... usually by another in the 'group'.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Exactly. How often has it been pointed out that tabloids should not be considered reliable source? The best example comes from the article claiming Knox was fired for being a floozy and Patrick was beaten by police. The paragraph falsely stating that Patrick claims he was beaten by police is repeatedly referenced, but the paragraph falsely stating that Knox was fired is agreed to be false. It's all in the same article, but only that which supports some misguided viewpoint is considered to be true - it is not considered possible that the entire article is fabricated. Round and round in circles ...
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

dgfred wrote:
The frustrating part is that it will only take a few post after the misconceptions are corrected for them to go right back to those SAME old misconceptions... usually by another in the 'group'.



Well, Fulcanelli seems to be telling them he's not going to repeat himself and if they raise points he's already addressed to review his previous posts. I don't think he's up for playing that game ;)

Not that they haven't been trying to play it. They've also been playing the 'cite!' game and the 'JAQ'ing Off' game as well as the 'Change the Subject and Switch to a New Talking Point When the Argument You have been Making is Defeated' game. Oh, and the 'Refuse to Answer Questions' Game.

It's a typical debate with FOAKers, really...just sans the usual personal abuse.

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Offline dgfred


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

I'm quite confident in Fulcanelli being able to handle himself ;) .
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
dgfred wrote:
The frustrating part is that it will only take a few post after the misconceptions are corrected for them to go right back to those SAME old misconceptions... usually by another in the 'group'.



Well, Fulcanelli seems to be telling them he's not going to repeat himself and if they raise points he's already addressed to review his previous posts. I don't think he's up for playing that game ;)

Not that they haven't been trying to play it. They've also been playing the 'cite!' game and the 'JAQ'ing Off' game as well as the 'Change the Subject and Switch to a New Talking Point When the Argument You have been Making is Defeated' game. Oh, and the 'Refuse to Answer Questions' Game.

It's a typical debate with FOAKers, really...just sans the usual personal abuse.


It's just a matter of time before the personal abuse starts ... the game is played where one person refers to someone as a third party, and then the third party becomes the topic.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
zorba wrote:
The Fulcanelli guy is Chris Mellas.

He took the identity off of someone who was upsetting the FOA lot by arguing points against the idea that Knox is innocent.

So Mellas, I think, took the identity to try to intimidate the person who was using the name Fulcanelli into stopping what he said or stopping the original Fulcanelli from getting his points across by creating a copy of that ID and writing all kinds of nonsense under it, the idea being to confuse people about Fulcanelli.

Now these brilliant schemes are as yet without the ingenious ideas of The Potty Pants Club run by Michelle Moore, between them, her and her hero husband Stevie Five O, they've caused Harvard to shut its gates, doors and windows and declare we had it all wrong, until Michelle came along we assumed brains were needed for thinking but she proved us wrong and so did Steve I've-got-guns Moore, we've given up and are in counselling said a spokesman for Harvard, Michelle runs counselling service and we joined up, in our name she seeks advice from da Lord every Tuesday eve-nin and sessions are held in the hall of their church, there is much laying on of hands, deals and merriment too, with her singing Michelle Sings, her album, then Michelle carries out a few exorcisms and Steve collects the dough at the door, well in truth, in order to get out they charge money.

If there could be anything more childish as exercises go, I'd like to know what, as this is so truly backward. Yet, it's typical of the two (possibly 3 or 4) people that the FOA club is comprised of.



No, that's the handle 'Michael Fulcanelli' and that was cloned from the real Fulcanelli. The real Fulcanelli is not Mellas and he's not a FOAKer. It is the real Fulcanelli they are talking about. It is the real Fulcanelli that is posting at Websleuths.



That's what I meant, but I'm sure the second Fulcanelli also posts as Fulcanelli in some spots and not only with Michael Fulcanelli.

anyway, spending time anywhere near where such nutters as Michael Fulcanelli post, is too much for my head, so I did not know the origina fulcanelli was still posting anywhere

Sure sounds confusing and that's what Mr Copy Cat Pants Fulcanelli wants to do, confuse.


Ok must na [

Jester will respond later cant keep eyes open

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Well, whoever the fake Michael Fulcanelli on Ground Report is, he obviously doesn't know the real Fulcanelli was the Master Alchemist in Pauwel and Bergier's The Morning of the Magicians :)
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Oh, now there's a book :)

I also recommend 'Le Mystere des Cathedrales'

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

O so Websleuths, that is not Ground report?

Nope (answers question meself)

And on ground report, there is a person posting under the name Michael Fulcanelli? (Yes, answers question meself).

And the Michael bit of the name would be a reference to some guy called Michael right? (Yeah, answers question all by me lonesome).

Cleared that up then.

Why can't people think up an own ID? (Cos they is fik, answered that all by me lonsome cowboy self).

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:38 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jester wrote:
O.T. ... Zorba, I can empathize with wanting to escape from our techno world. I've been thinking that in 2 years my youngest should be independent and in some ways I just want to disappear into the woods, or some equally Luddite like community, to live a simple live.


Esattamente, me too.

Jester wrote:
I suspect that a lot of people that have to adapt annually to the latest, greatest rearrangement of technology (it's not necessarily better anymore, just different) have had enough.


Esatto, what a money making lot of crap eh, Microsoft too with all of it's so called changes, nothing new, just rearranging stuff, then when my printer won't work messages like: Maybe it's time to buy a new printer, bla bla bla.

That is a really terrible thing, being forced to throw a perfectly good piece of equipment away, simply because Microsoft designs their things in such a way as to render your stuff incompatible, I'll think about these things and how Bill Gates is so kind to give his money away, but in a way he robbed the lot to start with, I'll think of how reality here in the Western countries is not the same as it is in let's say, mmm, India, where they hold competitions and the prize being a washing machine, where there it is like getting given a house, as people still have to save for years to buy one, whereas here you get given the stuff if you take a telephone account, with my last account I got a TV and a DVD, I could have picked any number of things, simply as here it all becomes outdated no sooner than the stores stock it, and with companies like Microsoft forcing you to discard stuff then one is forced to be a real consumer. What upsets me is that it all seems so unfair, why does washing machine have to cost someone a year or more of wages, in Africa or India or South America some place, but here you can find whatever you need on trash collection day, just lying around on the streets, dumped?


Jester wrote:
After yesterday's schizo experience I'm tempted to throw in the towel and admit that I've had enough.


I can imagine that, it's weird, that you have to be a auto-voyeurist, not looking at someone else but at your very own dear self. How strange is that eh Jester.


Jester wrote:
My supervisor was telling me that I should incorporate moodle into my lecture.
Really? I should be in class presenting a video of me teaching?
For what purpose?
Benefit? The answer: I could have a little in-class break while teaching and be available to answer questions afterwards. When teaching deconstructs to the point of me showing video of me teaching, something is whacked. It seems to be the mentality of grabbing a new technology for the sake of grabbing it, without questioning why. It reminds me of the texting with phone tool. We can use the phone to speak the words, or we can use the phone to type out every single word we have to say on a tiny little keypad ... which makes more sense? Speaking makes more sense to me, but not so for so many. With each day, that job of flipping burgers looks more attractive.



You might as well just watch it from home and type answers in, that's the danger of things these days, I get to thinking well money won't exist in future either, it's already impossible to do many things without cards, even parking there's no choice, one must have a card, your bank card or a chip card.
I find that discriminatory, I would prefer to use coins, it's far easier, it was good for about 50 years so why is it so bad that they needed to change it? The way things are going means in the future maybe everything will be like a reflection of real life.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:31 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

TV bookers’ most famous ‘exclusive’ interviews
TV bookers chase down high-profile subjects for morning shows, often paying them for their cooperation.


THE WASHINGTON POST

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:35 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Italian Legal System Flawed

Wednesday, September 14, 2011 9:04 pm

Alexa Livezey

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:37 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Italian press: Evidence not analyzed properly in Amanda Knox case (video)
Cindy Adams, Crime Examiner
September 14, 2011

EXAMINER

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:41 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Meredith Kercher killer Amanda Knox 'may be free by January'

THIS IS CROYDON TODAY

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:01 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

The Cook is off again: http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/2011/ ... t-go-free/


I wish The Machine would write a TJMK article...working title: '10 Reasons Why Candace Dempsey Should Keep Her Gob Shut'.

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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:14 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Amanda's aunt and Chris Mellas were on a German TV show the other day. If anyone's interested, I can look up the link, but it was a bit boring really.
Chris said he could visit Amanda in prison twice a week (I thought it was less) and that if she was not acquitted on appeal, he'd stay in Italy and continue doing what he's doing now. Reaction talk show host: That could be a very long time.
A criminal psychologist who didn't know the case raised the question if Amanda was sober during her first police interrogations.
But he did make an interesting general point: In his work he focuses on what the murderer did do that he didn't have to do (on top of the mere killing of a person) to approach the murderer's psyche and behavior.
In Meredith's case this of course speaks of an extreme brutality, the psychologist said. He didn't know about the staged break in and all the other things.


Last edited by Ava on Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jiin Fallon neuroscientist, the BBC doc I watched the other day, showing his work, a link here to him and his work.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Part 3 of a Horizon series shown on the BBC recently.
Jim Fallon & Co, explaining.









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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

zorba wrote:
O so Websleuths, that is not Ground report?

Nope (answers question meself)

And on ground report, there is a person posting under the name Michael Fulcanelli? (Yes, answers question meself).

And the Michael bit of the name would be a reference to some guy called Michael right? (Yeah, answers question all by me lonesome).

Cleared that up then.

Why can't people think up an own ID? (Cos they is fik, answered that all by me lonsome cowboy self).


Because the same sort of people who thought it would be funny to hijack Perugia Murder File dot COM also have a fetish for the one and only Michael :)
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
Oh, now there's a book :)

I also recommend 'Le Mystere des Cathedrales'


Will check out, thanks. I also confess to a love for T. Lobsang Rampa's books :)
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Ergon wrote:
Michael wrote:
Oh, now there's a book :)

I also recommend 'Le Mystere des Cathedrales'


Will check out, thanks. I also confess to a love for T. Lobsang Rampa's books :)



I'll send you a copy, I have an English translated version in e-book format somewhere...if I can find it. It wasn't written by Fulcanelli, but his student after Fulcanelli disappeared. He used Fulcanelli's research manuscripts to write it.

T. Lobsang Rampa. I grew up with those :) I think I've still got one or two of them lying around somewhere, but my mother has the whole set. He does have an extremely gentle, but very insightful wisdom. I remember there was a campaign by some people to try and discredit him, by claiming he was really a New York plumber and a taxi driver, in various turns.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Ava wrote:
Amanda's aunt and Chris Mellas were on a German TV show the other day. If anyone's interested, I can look up the link, but it was a bit boring really.
Chris said he could visit Amanda in prison twice a week (I thought it was less) and that if she was not acquitted on appeal, he'd stay in Italy and continue doing what he's doing now. Reaction talk show host: That could be a very long time.
A criminal psychologist who didn't know the case raised the question if Amanda was sober during her first police interrogations.
But he did make an interesting general point: In his work he focuses on what the murderer did do that he didn't have to do (on top of the mere killing of a person) to approach the murderer's psyche and behavior.
In Meredith's case this of course speaks of an extreme brutality, the psychologist said. He didn't know about the staged break in and all the other things.



You know, I don't know why they bother. Why always use experts that know so little about the case? I mean, what's the point? They could at least have the expert they are going to use research the case beforehand just to have 'some' idea of what they are talking about.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:47 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Quote: Bob Hare had identified one of the lines that might separate good from evil.
It was our emotions. Psychopaths simply just did not seem to have the feelings of empathy that stopped the rest of us from harming!

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Ergon wrote:
zorba wrote:
O so Websleuths, that is not Ground report?

Nope (answers question meself)

And on ground report, there is a person posting under the name Michael Fulcanelli? (Yes, answers question meself).

And the Michael bit of the name would be a reference to some guy called Michael right? (Yeah, answers question all by me lonesome).

Cleared that up then.

Why can't people think up an own ID? (Cos they is fik, answered that all by me lonsome cowboy self).


Because the same sort of people who thought it would be funny to hijack Perugia Murder File dot COM also have a fetish for the one and only Michael :)


Do you think so..?
Same sort!

I don't think the muscling-in, as with the mirror site - as in hijacked site - is related to the same type of people that make ridiculous copy cat ID's and do what they have tried to do with/against Fulcanelli.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

No, it's not them. It's a FOAKer who uses 'Michael Fulcanelli'.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
No, it's not them. It's a FOAKer who uses 'Michael Fulcanelli'.


It is, I believe, them, :) Michael.

This the site I was referring to http://www.perugiamurderfile.com/ , hijacked by IIP'ers.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Oh...that one, yes. That one's a Chris Mellas job.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

I'm posting this, just because...well, it's topical:


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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
You know, I don't know why they bother. Why always use experts that know so little about the case? I mean, what's the point? They could at least have the expert they are going to use research the case beforehand just to have 'some' idea of what they are talking about.



Well, I guess that's how most of those shows work. They want to keep it simple and at the same time appear to be clever.
What I was wondering about is why Chris Mellas travels all the way to Hamburg instead of looking for an Italian talk show. Probably they won't have him there.


Last edited by Ava on Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

See u luvly peepil later have to go see a man about a hog.. no not Mellas for Marriot's birthday barbecue

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Yesterday Knox was in the audience at Capanne prison for a concert given by Kandinsky Quintet, which played a variety of pieces in a program called Music of Hope.

Wind Quintet "Kandinsky" (Sagra Musicale Umbra)

Matteo Salerno (flute),
Simone Frondini (oboe),
Simone Fornaciari (clarinet),
Eolo Pignattini (horn),
Stefano Semprini (bassoon)

Attachment:
concerto-capanne-amanda-1.jpg


Amanda Knox in jail listening to classical music

Kandinsky Quintet concert organized as part of the Sagra Musicale Umbra

UMBRIA24

Attachment:
knox at the concert.jpg


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:47 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Fresh forensics blunder pushes Amanda Knox closer to freedom: Victim's bloody jumper was found in a laundry basket six weeks AFTER murder
By Nick Pisa

Last updated at 4:36 PM on 15th September 2011

THE DAILY MAIL


(Nick...this news is SO old....this was known three years ago. Could you give us anything more current? As in, developments this year, or at least, ones Methuselah would find modern? ? Us old campaigners know well that you're selling crap well past it's sell by date. Let's have something that doesn't give us food poisoning.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

It looks like they have air conditioning. We've heard from the Knox/Mellas family/friends that it is so hot in the prison, yet it doesn't look like anyone is suffering from the heat. I notice that there are two cameras on the prisoners too. She probably suffers more from lack of privacy than heat. She also appears to be quite happy and well adjusted. Since she doesn't understand classical music, I wonder what she was thinking about while she sat there ... more mugging for the camera, only to have her face blurred?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

guermantes wrote:
Yesterday Knox was in the audience at Capanne prison for a concert given by Kandinsky Quintet, which played a variety of pieces in a program called Music of Hope.

Wind Quintet "Kandinsky" (Sagra Musicale Umbra)

Matteo Salerno (flute),
Simone Frondini (oboe),
Simone Fornaciari (clarinet),
Eolo Pignattini (horn),
Stefano Semprini (bassoon)

Attachment:
concerto-capanne-amanda-1.jpg


Amanda Knox in jail listening to classical music

Kandinsky Quintet concert organized as part of the Sagra Musicale Umbra

UMBRIA24

Attachment:
knox at the concert.jpg



She gets to see more concerts then I do...

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jester wrote:
It looks like they have air conditioning. We've heard from the Knox/Mellas family/friends that it is so hot in the prison, yet it doesn't look like anyone is suffering from the heat. I notice that there are two cameras on the prisoners too. She probably suffers more from lack of privacy than heat. She also appears to be quite happy and well adjusted. Since she doesn't understand classical music, I wonder what she was thinking about while she sat there ... more mugging for the camera, only to have her face blurred?



I don't think Knox ever cared about privacy...

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

From Nick Pisa's article in the Daily Mail:

Quote:
But Patrizia Stefanoni, the forensic scientist in charge of the investigation dismissed their claims in court and insisted that there had been no contamination of the evidence and that proper procedures had been followed throughout.

When asked about the jumper today, she said: 'I can't comment when there is a trial in progress it would not be right. I don't understand why they are pulling this out now. It is of no relevance to either Knox or Sollecito.'


THE DAILY MAIL

Indeed, there was only Rudy Guede's DNA found on the cuff of the left sleeve of Meredith's blue Adidas top. How could it help exonerate Knox and Sollecito? Are they (the OGGI reporters) now saying that the DNA on the cuff was due to secondary transfer??? From dirty clothes, cigarette butts, hats, gloves, etc? Was Rudy's DNA supposed to be in the dirty laundry? What's all this good for? What nonsense!

wm)
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:47 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Thoughtful's translation of an article published today on the TGCOM website.

Is it true - that the lawyers are now preparing a new line of defence? Or is it all just gossip fabricated for the sake of sensationalism, which obviously sells better than the truth? I mean, the "sensational" stories we are being fed by the media at this late point are getting a bit ridiculous.

TGCOM

Thoughtful wrote:

Finally, Amanda's lawyers have gotten around to reading JREF!!

Translation of the tgcom article linked just above by H9:

Quote:
The lawyers say: "Mez was killed before 10 o'clock, these SMS and phone calls prove it"

At the appeal in Perugia, the defense reconstruct the crime and take apart the prosecution's theory: at what time were Raffaele and Amanda at the house?

Was Meredith Kercher really killed around 23:30?

The defense lawyers of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are working to insinuate a reasonable doubt about the timing of the death: if this, also, was refuted, the prosecution's plan would take another blow, after the contamination of the DNA collected in the room in via della Pergola. The "new" timing would disculpate Amanda and Raffaele (who were in front of the TV) and would implicate [inguiarebbero?] Rudy Guede (who in his chat said that "Mez was killed before 9:30").

The SMSes

In support of their hypothesis, the defense brings records of the phone calls, SMS and MMS made to and from the victim's telephone. For example, they point out Mez's habits, such as sending many SMSes late in the evening: on October 25 she sent 28, the next day 14, on the 29th she sent 9, on the 30 she sent 27, whereas on the night of the crime (November 1st), she only sent 3. For the defense, the fact that she didn't send many SMSes shows that the time of the crime should be moved earlier.

Phone calls home

Her telephone in her hand, Meredith called her home that evening at
20:56. An empty ring, then another. At the end she hangs up: no one is answering. None of the Kerchers call her back. Is it possible that the girl didn't try to contact her family again? Maybe she wanted to, but - according to the lawyers - couldn't, because she was already in the hands of her attacker. The defense lawyers ask themselves the question, and they are asking it in court: "If, as the prosecution asserts, she died two and a half hours later, then why didn't she call her parents back?"

Strange events

One hour later, at 21:58, a call to voice mail went out from the student's cell phone. But the call was immediately blocked. Why? The second strange circumstance is a call to the English Abbey bank. This second call is also abruptly terminated. For the defense, these two facts prove that the cell phone was not in the hands of its owner, but of someone else.

The last MMS

It came at 22:13, through the main cell tower covering the Parco Sant'Angelo (which is the one that covers the area where the phones were thrown, Mrs. Lana's garden). This is not the main cell tower covering via della Pergola. Consequently, the defense of the convicted [ones] reconstruct the crime differently.

The reconstruction

At 21:00 on November 1st, Mez was playing with her phone. Alone in her house. Then came the unexpected. Someone attacks her and kills her. At 21:58, the English student is already dead. Her killer takes the phones, generating two calls by mistake, and when he receives the MMS, he panics (knowing that they are traceable) and throws them away, convinced that he's flinging them into the ravine.

Moral of the story: Mez is supposed to have died between 20:56 and 21:58, while Raffaele and Amanda were watching the film "Amelie".


Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:42 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:18 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

max wrote:
It will be interesting to see how much Hellman will accept of Massei's reasoning and how much he will accept from Rudy's trials now his docs have been entered into evidence as well. One thing you don't see discussed much is the statements made by Rudy which will now be added to the evidence that AK + RS were in the cottage. This is simply an extra piece of evidence that wasn't there before.

Looking at the Rudy's Supreme Court Sentencing Report you seem some small differences. For example, they reason from Curatolo's testimony that RS+AK went to the basketball court after the murder and not before as in Massei's reasoning. Also, the TOD is a bit earlier. From Rudy's statements he left about 22:30. This would mean they all left just before the broken down car arrived, or even ...they all ran away because the broken down car arrived. They might have thought the guy heard the scream and was calling the police. I tend to agree more with the version from Rudy's trials. Curatolo saw them in a heated argument. It would make more sense IMO if that was after the murder.

I believe this is one of the main reasons why Hellman asked Curatolo to come back. To hear more about this difference in reasoning between the courts. I hope he follows my reasoning :) and sets the TOD at shortly after 22:30. This will end any discussions on TOD and significance of when exactly the tow truck left. I also think the series of strange activity on Meredith's phone after 22:00 was the start of the attack, and not Meredith playing with her phone. Anyhow, I will just wait patiently to see how Hellman will fit the pieces of the puzzle together. Most importantly of course is the confirmation of the guilty verdicts.


Hi Max, the TG-Com article about the defence's plans to dispute the prosecution's accuracy of determining the 'real' TOD echoes to some degree your observations about the discrepancies regarding TOD in various reports.

I agree those two calls made from Meredith's phone at around 10 pm are very puzzling.

By the way, here is the link to an earlier posting (Nov 2010) on the TOD controversy (IIP).

Time of Death Crucial Issue in Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito Appeals

IIP

It's almost too obvious to point out similarities between the IIP version and the TG-Com article.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:54 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

I don't see how it will exonerate Amanda Knox if the TOD is shifted from 23:00/23:30 to around or shortly before 22:00.

So the time of death could have been earlier according to the defense teams. Still, Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito don't have an alibi for that time, they lied to police repeatedly, contradicted each other and DNA traces place them at the cottage the night of the murder.

It doesn't make any difference to me.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:21 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

guermantes wrote:
max wrote:
It will be interesting to see how much Hellman will accept of Massei's reasoning and how much he will accept from Rudy's trials now his docs have been entered into evidence as well. One thing you don't see discussed much is the statements made by Rudy which will now be added to the evidence that AK + RS were in the cottage. This is simply an extra piece of evidence that wasn't there before.

Looking at the Rudy's Supreme Court Sentencing Report you seem some small differences. For example, they reason from Curatolo's testimony that RS+AK went to the basketball court after the murder and not before as in Massei's reasoning. Also, the TOD is a bit earlier. From Rudy's statements he left about 22:30. This would mean they all left just before the broken down car arrived, or even ...they all ran away because the broken down car arrived. They might have thought the guy heard the scream and was calling the police. I tend to agree more with the version from Rudy's trials. Curatolo saw them in a heated argument. It would make more sense IMO if that was after the murder.

I believe this is one of the main reasons why Hellman asked Curatolo to come back. To hear more about this difference in reasoning between the courts. I hope he follows my reasoning :) and sets the TOD at shortly after 22:30. This will end any discussions on TOD and significance of when exactly the tow truck left. I also think the series of strange activity on Meredith's phone after 22:00 was the start of the attack, and not Meredith playing with her phone. Anyhow, I will just wait patiently to see how Hellman will fit the pieces of the puzzle together. Most importantly of course is the confirmation of the guilty verdicts.


Hi Max, the TG-Com article about the defence's plans to dispute the prosecution's accuracy of determining the 'real' TOD echoes to some degree your observations about the discrepancies regarding TOD in various reports.

I agree those two calls made from Meredith's phone at around 10 pm are very puzzling.

By the way, here is the link to an earlier posting (Nov 2010) on the TOD controversy (IIP).

Time of Death Crucial Issue in Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito Appeals

IIP

It's almost too obvious to point out similarities between the IIP version and the TG-Com article.

Yah, silly isn't it? Stretch half an hour here or there while we are already talking about ranges in the first place. How will that ever work in court. TOD was set 'around 11pm'. That is really all we know. Massei stretched it a bit too far to the right IMO and maybe Rudy was right when he said 22:30. It is all still 'around 11pm'. It does not change anything about who killed Meredith. I am afraid the disruption of the 8:56pm phonecall isn't going to be very significant either although I agree that it meant that she wasn't alone. After all AK confessed that she arrived at about 9pm. Unfortunately that statement can't be used in court.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:50 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Nell wrote:
I don't see how it will exonerate Amanda Knox if the TOD is shifted from 23:00/23:30 to around or shortly before 22:00.

So the time of death could have been earlier according to the defense teams. Still, Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito don't have an alibi for that time, they lied to police repeatedly, contradicted each other and DNA traces place them at the cottage the night of the murder.

It doesn't make any difference to me.


I've been working like a schizophrenic again today so I can barely think straight, but I have to agree with you. The last known human interaction with the computer was not at 9:10 when the movie ended, but earlier. The last confirmed time that the lovebirds were at Sollecito's apartment was at about 8:40. There was plenty of time for the drinking, drugged up lovebirds to be at the cottage at 9:30 to murder Meredith. Is the idea that Guede told the truth about when the murder occurred, but not about who was involved in the murder? Meredith's father phoned her shortly after midnight, and at that time the signal was confirmed to be bouncing off the tower near the area where the phones were found the following day. I agree that putting the murder as early as 10 makes no difference. The time of death, in my opinion, will never be known.

As for their alibi, it was eating dinner at 11, 10 and 9:30. That didn't pan out, so that still leaves them without an alibi for the time period between 8:40 PM and 6 AM.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 6:15 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

This isn't really new. As I recall it, they tried during the main trial (using more or less the same arguments) to push the TOD earlier, so there is no bombshell here.

One of the reasons they want to push it earlier, is to discredit the testimony of the witnesses that heard the scream and running, since that testimony places multiple people at the crime scene.

The texts aren't really an argument, since people cancel the sending of texts all the time. They start to send one then think better of it. As for the lack of texts, well that's easy to explain...Meredith was going home to study for her test. She was probably studying. And the defence are only comparing text use to the two previous nights, which isn't a large sample size at all. The two previous nights she was arranging and going out for Halloween. That probably explains the amount of texts.

As for Meredith's top and whatever Oggi's going on about, it has nothing whatsoever to do with Knox and Sollecito, just like Dr Stefanoni said. What's the point? Only to try and smear the ILE some more is all.

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Offline max


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 6:21 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

What is up with that Oggi magazine anyway? Is that just some kind of tabloid trying to sell by choosing the Knox side? Is there any objectivity there?
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:37 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

It's actually a lot worse then a tabloid...really low end of the market. Oggi has been championing their cause from the start. Stefano Nazzi seems to be a Knox sympathiser and he writes most of the stories. In return the family give him access and their experts feed him 'exclusives'. It was Nazzi who photographed Knox's sisters by the cottage I believe.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:25 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Amanda Knox and the Architects of the Foxy Knoxy Myth
by Bruce Fisher September 16, 2011


GROUND REPORT

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:47 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Nicki -

If you're reading...please check your PM's.

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Offline jeffski


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
Amanda Knox and the Architects of the Foxy Knoxy Myth
by Bruce Fisher September 16, 2011


GROUND REPORT


HI Michael,

I really can’t believe the amount of people on ground report that seem to take everything for gospel that is written there by Bruce/Denver/Moore etc, it really makes you question where these people get there information regarding this sad story.

I can honestly say I have never come across a site that spews out so much miss-information and outright lies and vile hatred towards anyone who does not agree with their take on the case.

I will continue to attempt to put the true facts out there but it does wear you down after a while reading some of the outlandish theories they come out with.

JEFFSKI

“BE JUST AND FEAR NOT”
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

jeffski wrote:
Michael wrote:
Amanda Knox and the Architects of the Foxy Knoxy Myth
by Bruce Fisher September 16, 2011


GROUND REPORT


HI Michael,

I really can’t believe the amount of people on ground report that seem to take everything for gospel that is written there by Bruce/Denver/Moore etc, it really makes you question where these people get there information regarding this sad story.

I can honestly say I have never come across a site that spews out so much miss-information and outright lies and vile hatred towards anyone who does not agree with their take on the case.

I will continue to attempt to put the true facts out there but it does wear you down after a while reading some of the outlandish theories they come out with.

JEFFSKI

“BE JUST AND FEAR NOT”



Well, I think a good many of them know fully well most of it is bunk but don't really care. Any and all lies are good as long as they are for our gal. They don't care about the truth, although they love to (ab) use the word a lot. It's all about 'winning', at ANY cost.

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THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 1:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

From what I can see, it appears the defense's final arguments will be based on

a) an earlier time of death
b) contaminated evidence
c) Amanda and Raffaele have been railroaded by a malicious prosecution and incompetent forensics by Dr. Stefanoni's team.

Everything else will be explained away, the purpose being to create reasonable doubt in the mind of Judge Hellmann. True, he has only one vote, but true also that he can influence the jury. This appears to be an American directed strategy.

They're going for broke; let's see how that works.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
This isn't really new. As I recall it, they tried during the main trial (using more or less the same arguments) to push the TOD earlier, so there is no bombshell here.

One of the reasons they want to push it earlier, is to discredit the testimony of the witnesses that heard the scream and running, since that testimony places multiple people at the crime scene.

The texts aren't really an argument, since people cancel the sending of texts all the time. They start to send one then think better of it. As for the lack of texts, well that's easy to explain...Meredith was going home to study for her test. She was probably studying. And the defence are only comparing text use to the two previous nights, which isn't a large sample size at all. The two previous nights she was arranging and going out for Halloween. That probably explains the amount of texts.

As for Meredith's top and whatever Oggi's going on about, it has nothing whatsoever to do with Knox and Sollecito, just like Dr Stefanoni said. What's the point? Only to try and smear the ILE some more is all.


The food processing argument from those that want Knox released from prison is all about pushing the time of death as early as possible as well. Two facts about murder: the time of death cannot be conclusively determined based on stomach contents - at best a time interval spanning several hours can be established; and, a murder weapon cannot be conclusively determined based on wounds.

As for texts and phone calls, Meredith was tired (per her friends testimony). She had been out with friends until 6 AM that morning, probably slept poorly and had called it a night by 9 PM. She had borrowed a textbook that had to be returned the following day at noon and she believed that she needed to prepare for an exam that evening.

Oggi has published other odd articles, so one more doesn't really say much to me.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Ergon wrote:
From what I can see, it appears the defense's final arguments will be based on

a) an earlier time of death
b) contaminated evidence
c) Amanda and Raffaele have been railroaded by a malicious prosecution and incompetent forensics by Dr. Stefanoni's team.

Everything else will be explained away, the purpose being to create reasonable doubt in the mind of Judge Hellmann. True, he has only one vote, but true also that he can influence the jury. This appears to be an American directed strategy.

They're going for broke; let's see how that works.


Regarding time of death, the fact that Knox mentioned a terrible scream - so terrible that she had to cover her ears - stands out in my mind as important, particularly because a terrible scream was also heard by a neighbour. It's too coincidental that two people reported a terrible scream that night. Although I consider the time of the scream to be in question, I do believe that it corresponds to the time of the murder.

The contaminated evidence argument seems like the same ole' same ole' argument that is presented by guilty people all the time: essentially the argument is that contamination was possible, but it cannot be proven. In this case, I think there is a strong argument that contamination did not occur - particularly regarding the knife.

Knox knew that Meredith had been sexually assaulted, that Meredith bled to death and that more than one person was involved in the murder well before those facts were known by investigators. Those are three important points that suggest Knox knew details about the murder prior to the coroner's examination - well before she should have had that information. Similarly, Sollecito stated that nothing had been stolen from Filomina's room well before he should have known this. Knox attempted to deflect attention from herself when she realized the police were closing in and accused an innocent man of rape and murder. Sollecito attempted to deflect attention from himself by claiming that he lied because Knox asked him to. Knox fully believed that after accusing Patrick of murder that she would be free to leave the police station. Sollecito probably believed the same - that he would be released after pointing the finger at Knox. Knox knew that her mother was arriving the following day and probably thought that she could quickly leave the country with her mother's assistance the next morning. Sollecito probably assumed he could flee to his father's home and be protected by "water flowing uphill".

Behavioral science was used in this murder investigation, but Knox supporters would like us to believe that after centuries of being sound science in murder investigations, it is suddenly junk science. I suppose that would suggest that FBI profilers are practicing junk science, or that there is no connection between experience and behavioral reactions - which simply isn't true. In the last few years we've been hearing the nonsense that: everyone grieves differently and strange/abnormal behaviors of murderers should be viewed as quirky personalities rather than suspicious behavior. Is it prosecutorial misconduct and malicious forensics, or malicious prosecution and forenic misconduct (or whatever combination of complaints that are possible) with respect to Knox, the quirky, lying clairvoyant? OR was it old fashioned police work where a convicted murderer was called out for having information about a murder before it was investigated, and who did everything in her power to escape justice?
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Zorba ... just watching the videos you loaded about brain and behavioral science. When I heard oxytocin mentioned (part 2), I recognized it as the drug/hormone that is given to women to induce labour, and which is also present in high quantities naturally during child birth. The neuroscientists are equating oxytocin to empathy. If this is a natural occurring hormone during childbirth, how does that fit into the empathy argument? Is this the hormone that makes women want to care for their new offspring? If testosterone is equated to aggression, how does that impact men and women as they age? As we age, men's testosterone levels decrease and women's testosterone levels increase. I've often joked about this with my son, pointing out that when females are young, they want to talk about their feelings and males really couldn't care less. As males and females age, men want to talk about their feelings and women don't really seem to care much about it anymore. In the debate with my son, I point out that the shift in women to not care much about discussing feelings could be a learned response, but it could also be that testosterone is the culprit.

There are certainly some interesting points in the documentary, but I'm not convinced that babies choosing the toy that played nice, or not nice, with the ball is conclusive. Some children that choose the toy that took the ball may think that they can get the ball back from that toy - hard to say.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Rudy also confirms the scream (and Capezalli and Monacchia and in a way AK). He also confirms the 2 people running on the gravel path. With his testimony he confirms several witnesses. I do expect Hellmann to use Rudy's testimony.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Interesting reference in the documentary about "what lay beneath the mask" when aligning it with Knox claiming that she doesn't want to wear the mask of a murderer. Who would have thought that a murderer knew so intuitively that murderers wore masks.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:38 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Ava wrote:
Michael wrote:
You know, I don't know why they bother. Why always use experts that know so little about the case? I mean, what's the point? They could at least have the expert they are going to use research the case beforehand just to have 'some' idea of what they are talking about.



Well, I guess that's how most of those shows work. They want to keep it simple and at the same time appear to be clever.
What I was wondering about is why Chris Mellas travels all the way to Hamburg instead of looking for an Italian talk show. Probably they won't have him there.


Thanks Ava for the summary of the German talk show segment. Probably, CM is cashing in on his newly-found abilities to appear on TV.

Attachment:
Chris Mellas on Markus Lanz in ZDF-1.jpg


I found a fluff piece about it in the BILD-Zeitung:

BILD

Attachment:
Markus Lanz, Dorothee Nair, Chris Mellas in ZDF-1.jpg


Link to the video: ZDF


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Last edited by guermantes on Fri Sep 16, 2011 5:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

max wrote:
Rudy also confirms the scream (and Capezalli and Monacchia and in a way AK). He also confirms the 2 people running on the gravel path. With his testimony he confirms several witnesses. I do expect Hellmann to use Rudy's testimony.


The blood curdling scream on the night that someone was brutally murdered simply cannot, in my opinion, be ignored. Knox attempts to distance herself by claiming that the police coerced her into stating that she heard the scream, and Knox supporters attempt to distance the scream from the murder by claiming that the witness is deaf. Neither are reasonable claims. There was a scream and the fact that Knox knew this is extremely suspicious. When there is a murder, there are many different possibilities in terms of how someone died and the circumstance of the murder. Meredith could have died by strangulation, for example. The murder could have occurred as a result of a robbery. She could have been caught off guard without being able to utter a sound. In this case, Knox knew that Meredith bled to death - not that she died instantly from strangulation after being stabbed, that she was sexually assaulted - not that she was at the wrong place at the wrong time, that she screamed - not that she was unable to utter a sound. How is all of this possible if she was no where near the murder? She's not clairvoyant or quirky ... she simply knew the facts of the case before the murder was discovered or investigated.

Regarding Rudy's testimony, there are so many inconsistencies in his statements, similar to Knox and Sollecito, that I am reluctant to believe anything any of them say without independent corroboration. Regarding the scream, we have that independent corroboration.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 5:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

From the German video ... What? Knox is still having trouble sleeping and eating? Is her hair also falling out again?

Mellas has perfected the art of imitating a garden gnome while he sits amongst people speaking a language where he knows not one word.

After the criminologist talks about why it's quite possible that Knox was involved, we get the "aunt" (Knox sure has a lot of aunts all over the place) claiming that police forced Knox to implicate herself - same ole' same ole'.

Gag ... the journalist makes more excuses for Knox than Knox herself.

And there's Mellas with his 52 hours and all the crap about coercion - I guess there's nothing to explain Knox except lies.

I wish they didn't talk so fast ... my German is very rusty.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 5:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Gotta love this:

"16 Polizisten hätten sie 14 Stunden lang befragt. Die Amerikanerin hätte währenddessen nichts zu Essen oder zu Trinken bekommen und durfte nicht auf die Toilette gehen. Und: Das Verhör fand auf italienisch statt – ohne Übersetzer!"

16 police officers questioned her for 14 hours. The american had nothing to eat or drink and was not allowed to use the toilet. And: the interrogation took place without an interpreter!

Gasp! On what planet did this happen?

http://www.bild.de/news/inland/amanda-k ... .bild.html

I rather liked the questions about why Knox is always smiling in court given the gravity of the situation ... the nice journalist can explain this too: she's happy to see her family. I suppose she's so happy to see her family that she can't focus on the seriousness of the situation.


Last edited by Jester on Fri Sep 16, 2011 5:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 5:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jester wrote:
Zorba ... just watching the videos you loaded about brain and behavioral science. When I heard oxytocin mentioned (part 2), I recognized it as the drug/hormone that is given to women to induce labour, and which is also present in high quantities naturally during child birth. The neuroscientists are equating oxytocin to empathy. If this is a natural occurring hormone during childbirth, how does that fit into the empathy argument? Is this the hormone that makes women want to care for their new offspring? If testosterone is equated to aggression, how does that impact men and women as they age? As we age, men's testosterone levels decrease and women's testosterone levels increase. I've often joked about this with my son, pointing out that when females are young, they want to talk about their feelings and males really couldn't care less. As males and females age, men want to talk about their feelings and women don't really seem to care much about it anymore. In the debate with my son, I point out that the shift in women to not care much about discussing feelings could be a learned response, but it could also be that testosterone is the culprit.

There are certainly some interesting points in the documentary, but I'm not convinced that babies choosing the toy that played nice, or not nice, with the ball is conclusive. Some children that choose the toy that took the ball may think that they can get the ball back from that toy - hard to say.


Hello Jester, the best way to find out what they, or any one of the individuals mean or meant, is by writing to him/her/them directly (it's not too hard to find people these days) like I just did, to one of those in one of the vids, as I wanted to ask something, it too was related to the bit, the approach towards kids, with those toys, I knew when I saw that, that they are very unknowledgeable, the world of science is (unknowledgeable) on that matter, the perinatal. They guess and in fact, are a huge frustration to the tiny toddler, because their lack of agility is only bodily bound, not at the core of their being.

I am not part & parcel of what they say,

I have very own views on everything and titles don't say a lot to me,
as I see, that in this world, with our manmade realities, that what is thought of and celebrated as being intelligence, can and is often not always intelligence or people being or having intelligence

but more like people who learn parrot-fashion, maybe are good at recording facts & figures in their minds, are good at learning, but good at being brainwashed by the very idea that they, following a study, are then made intelligent, just because they get awarded a certificate of some type or another.

So if for instance, one expert says he would give a year of his life to be able to be that creature the child again and know what it (the very young child) is thinking, then I know that there are plenty of things he does not know, and his analyses are all based on lack of self-knowledge, certainly where it regards what a pre-speaking child has in its mind.

Getting them to do those tests with the toys told me they consider a baby is born as a blank slate and that they then in turn, don't know, they are just guessing. This is as far as most science is on this matter.

They may have expertise in other areas, gained through experimentation and tests, and trying to find links, like Jim Fallon pointed out that they did find sometimes, by chance. His PET scans show things that mean something but even he found out that even though he had all of those markers that should have made him a psychopathic killer too, he was however not one.

He says he isn't a killer probably as a result of the environment he was lucky enough to be born into, but I'd say that he is simply lucky, someone else may have had the same markers as he had and had a nice home but ended up acting like Ted Bundy.

What if people are actually born with things to go through/learn according to what they already got around to/up to what they mastered or failed to to in a previous existence and that choices are somehow tied into karmic bound matters?
That's what interests me.

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Last edited by zorba on Sat Sep 17, 2011 7:14 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 5:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jester wrote:
Gotta love this:

"16 Polizisten hätten sie 14 Stunden lang befragt. Die Amerikanerin hätte währenddessen nichts zu Essen oder zu Trinken bekommen und durfte nicht auf die Toilette gehen. Und: Das Verhör fand auf italienisch statt – ohne Übersetzer!"

16 police officers questioned her for 14 hours. The american had nothing to eat or drink and was not allowed to use the toilet. And: the interrogation took place without an interpreter!

Gasp! On what planet did this happen?

http://www.bild.de/news/inland/amanda-k ... .bild.html


I think they're confusing the issue with a concentration camp in Poland.

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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 5:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Is that Hinduism ... the karmic bounding? I've considered those possibilities at different times ... whether there really are old souls that are here once again because they need to repair something they did in an earlier life ... but another part of me questions whether there are souls. My mother had a brain tumour when she was about 60. Prior to this, she was a very religious woman - more of religous debater, but still a believer. When she had the tumour, her personality was altered (she became very sweet and easy to be with rather than the astute, sharp minded person she normally was). After the operation, she doubted the existence of a soul because if there was a soul, then regardless of brain illness, the soul would remain intact. If a brain illness could alter the personality - the inner person, the soul, then the soul did not exist independent of a brain and if that's the case, then there really is no soul.

That's the quick summary of the logic she used ... gotta run ... gotta deal with my son's damaged tooth from the attack of the thugs ... but it's an interesting topic to debate. I think that people have free will, regardless of nature and nurture. Even people with missing genes or unfortunate homes have a responsibility to function within societal rules and if they choose not to do this, they are responsible - not genetics or environmental factors. Having a supposed genetic predisposition towards aggression is probably as old as man himself ... given the right circumstances. If I had been anywhere near the thugs that attacked my son, I would become murderous.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 5:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

zorba wrote:
Jester wrote:
Gotta love this:

"16 Polizisten hätten sie 14 Stunden lang befragt. Die Amerikanerin hätte währenddessen nichts zu Essen oder zu Trinken bekommen und durfte nicht auf die Toilette gehen. Und: Das Verhör fand auf italienisch statt – ohne Übersetzer!"

16 police officers questioned her for 14 hours. The american had nothing to eat or drink and was not allowed to use the toilet. And: the interrogation took place without an interpreter!

Gasp! On what planet did this happen?

http://www.bild.de/news/inland/amanda-k ... .bild.html


I think they're confusing the issue with a concentration camp in Poland.


But of course ... Knox isn't really the creep that ridicules Jewish people by saying "my people killed your people", she's now a victim at Auschwitz.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 6:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jester wrote:
zorba wrote:
Jester wrote:
Gotta love this:

"16 Polizisten hätten sie 14 Stunden lang befragt. Die Amerikanerin hätte währenddessen nichts zu Essen oder zu Trinken bekommen und durfte nicht auf die Toilette gehen. Und: Das Verhör fand auf italienisch statt – ohne Übersetzer!"

16 police officers questioned her for 14 hours. The American had nothing to eat or drink and was not allowed to use the toilet. And: the interrogation took place without an interpreter!

Gasp! On what planet did this happen?

http://www.bild.de/news/inland/amanda-k ... .bild.html


I think they're confusing the issue with a concentration camp in Poland.


But of course ... Knox isn't really the creep that ridicules Jewish people by saying "my people killed your people", she's now a victim at Auschwitz.


Yeah, I just checked the above vid out, but after all the introductions, I'd already had enough, and switched it off, what good will it do me to put myself through watching warped Mellas say his usual stuff.
The woman with Mellas, was that Knox's aunt, she seemed to understand German, or perhaps she just recognised her name.


Watching A German version of the lie machine, can't be useful.

What an odd bunch of German people too, the tough looking guy with the coloured beads around his neck, what is he all about.

It's weird, for instance, in Britain there has never ever been a lot of foreign language films, plays or whatever shown on TV, if one is shown, it'll be overdubbed, so that they appear to be speaking English even though the film was French or whatever, as British people are not great at learning other languages, certainly not compared to say people in the Netherlands where many people are able to speak 2 to 3 extra languages and often, 6 languages, 6 by no means being a rarity. In Germany or France, where they are very into their own languages, they do the same as is done in Britain, cowboy films with the old famous stars, Cary Grant, John Wayne, speaking German.

God knows it must be easy for Mellas to tell them anything he likes, what kind of understanding are people in Germany, in general, going to have of this case? I do not think a lot, simply because a majority of people in Germany do not have a good command of English.

I bet that in the above video, there was nobody present who knew the case inside out and opposed the idea, as put out by her family and their propaganda machine, that Knox is innocent.

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Last edited by zorba on Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 6:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jester wrote:
From the German video ... What? Knox is still having trouble sleeping and eating? Is her hair also falling out again?

Mellas has perfected the art of imitating a garden gnome while he sits amongst people speaking a language where he knows not one word.

After the criminologist talks about why it's quite possible that Knox was involved, we get the "aunt" (Knox sure has a lot of aunts all over the place) claiming that police forced Knox to implicate herself - same ole' same ole'.

Gag ... the journalist makes more excuses for Knox than Knox herself.

And there's Mellas with his 52 hours and all the crap about coercion - I guess there's nothing to explain Knox except lies.

I wish they didn't talk so fast ... my German is very rusty.



He does look like a garden gnome, doesn't he? :)
It's really same ole same ole.
The "aunt" is Edda's cousin, so that would make her Amanda's grand-cousin, I suppose?
The journalist started out with a more impartial attitude btw (AK could be guilty, but she could also be innocent), and I think was maybe a little insecure and also unexperienced. She had probably talked to CM shortly before the show, as they usually do, and was "under the influence".
And "Bild" is really one of the worst tabloids, they go for high emotions and sensationalism, not necessarily the truth.

And thanks, Zorba, for the videos! I had to stop somewhere in the middle but will finish watching them when I get the chance.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jester wrote:
zorba wrote:
Jester wrote:
Gotta love this:

"16 Polizisten hätten sie 14 Stunden lang befragt. Die Amerikanerin hätte währenddessen nichts zu Essen oder zu Trinken bekommen und durfte nicht auf die Toilette gehen. Und: Das Verhör fand auf italienisch statt – ohne Übersetzer!"

16 police officers questioned her for 14 hours. The american had nothing to eat or drink and was not allowed to use the toilet. And: the interrogation took place without an interpreter!

Gasp! On what planet did this happen?

http://www.bild.de/news/inland/amanda-k ... .bild.html


I think they're confusing the issue with a concentration camp in Poland.


But of course ... Knox isn't really the creep that ridicules Jewish people by saying "my people killed your people", she's now a victim at Auschwitz.



You know what Jester, I reckon that the Knox helpers (PR Firm Marriot) devised a strategy from day one, and obviously thy had enough tried and tested lines up their PR-manipulative sleeves.

They said look at it, there's no way of getting her off through normal channels, so you (talking to the family - those responsible for engaging the PR Firm) must stick to what we say, and she must be presented as the victim, a victim of everything that we can possibly make her a victim off. In fact then, the strategy has been to undermine everything they possibly could, even before they did a thing, they knew that what they would be using was the idea that everything had been dealt with in an incompetently, that the evidence was contaminated.

Much like Freak Dempsey, the way she jumped on this case immediately, and lied to everyone, those who just out of a sense of own-humanity, were interested in what had happened to Meredith, ... not in what had happened to Knox, but Dempsey truly used the case to try to make a name and money for herself, so where people wrote on her blog, people like Michael, myself and many others, she in no way was ever going to play fair, and her blog was an exercise in dictatorial using of people, those who wrote there were only used as material sources, if anyone wrote anything that she could use, I bet she did use it later on in her shit book.

I never read it as I'm not a glutton for punishment and seeing what she did write on her blog was enough to inform me of what her book would be like.


Anyhow, Mr Mellas now enjoys an international career, traveling the wold, meeting people, why.. he might even get given an own TV show sometime, by Steve Shay Productions or something like any one of those shit American media outlets connected to Marriot.


Where even what were top newspaper concerns have had to shut up shop through the change in the what was monopoly of news
provision to a world in which the Internet means people can access far more same news but provided by different sources, the power has been lost so those still involved in the media,in news are pretty much all afraid of losing their jobs and have pretty much thrown any high standards that may one time have been part of what top news publishing meant, right overboard, what's important now is to make sure you do not lose your job, so nobody is courageous enough to go against the grain, simply because they have no more opportunity to do so. That is something that the heads of news publishers have to take responsibility for, but yeah if you are a Nick Pisa, you can actually still have integrity if you think it's important, and you can then make up your own mind, he obviously doesn't, he has a line to sell (it is most profitable to him as those he writes for demand sensationalism and heated topics, he creates them a la minute, making heavy issues even worse by telling lies and putting it into print, he is like the Dracula of tabloid print and it seems he got his fang into Barbie Nadeau too, Barbie and Co probably making the mistake of looking up to him, the man they think is some kind of big British journalist but he isn't, he is a newspapery whoremonger of the twisted storyline, I found it most disturbing to see him sat eating at the same table with Barbie, as I do still believe in Barbie to an extent, knowing she knows little about law,I did have faith in her, in Pisa I never believed or had any faith, ever, simply because he writes for the Mail and I noticed early on it was him introducing stuff like the DRIFTER and repeating that, he has done a lot of damage with his inaccuracies as others have just copied his crap) and after all, his main paper is actually the Daily Mail, the Mail owned by people who have more newspapers under their umbrella, but the Daily Mail one of the very worst excuses for a newspaper in the entire world. To me anyone writing for that paper has to have something wrong with them, it is full of crap.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jester wrote:
Is that Hinduism ... the karmic bounding? I've considered those possibilities at different times ... whether there really are old souls that are here once again because they need to repair something they did in an earlier life ... but another part of me questions whether there are souls. My mother had a brain tumour when she was about 60. Prior to this, she was a very religious woman - more of religous debater, but still a believer. When she had the tumour, her personality was altered (she became very sweet and easy to be with rather than the astute, sharp minded person she normally was). After the operation, she doubted the existence of a soul because if there was a soul, then regardless of brain illness, the soul would remain intact. If a brain illness could alter the personality - the inner person, the soul, then the soul did not exist independent of a brain and if that's the case, then there really is no soul.

That's the quick summary of the logic she used ... gotta run ... gotta deal with my son's damaged tooth from the attack of the thugs ... but it's an interesting topic to debate. I think that people have free will, regardless of nature and nurture. Even people with missing genes or unfortunate homes have a responsibility to function within societal rules and if they choose not to do this, they are responsible - not genetics or environmental factors. Having a supposed genetic predisposition towards aggression is probably as old as man himself ... given the right circumstances. If I had been anywhere near the thugs that attacked my son, I would become murderous.



Will get back to you on this one

Doesn't necessarily have to be part of Hinduism, it can be (refer to) part of what a person has discovered through introspection and an own life.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Ava wrote:
Jester wrote:
From the German video ... What? Knox is still having trouble sleeping and eating? Is her hair also falling out again?

Mellas has perfected the art of imitating a garden gnome while he sits amongst people speaking a language where he knows not one word.

After the criminologist talks about why it's quite possible that Knox was involved, we get the "aunt" (Knox sure has a lot of aunts all over the place) claiming that police forced Knox to implicate herself - same ole' same ole'.

Gag ... the journalist makes more excuses for Knox than Knox herself.

And there's Mellas with his 52 hours and all the crap about coercion - I guess there's nothing to explain Knox except lies.

I wish they didn't talk so fast ... my German is very rusty.



He does look like a garden gnome, doesn't he? :)
It's really same ole same ole.
The "aunt" is Edda's cousin, so that would make her Amanda's grand-cousin, I suppose?
The journalist started out with a more impartial attitude btw (AK could be guilty, but she could also be innocent), and I think was maybe a little insecure and also unexperienced. She had probably talked to CM shortly before the show, as they usually do, and was "under the influence".
And "Bild" is really one of the worst tabloids, they go for high emotions and sensationalism, not necessarily the truth.

And thanks, Zorba, for the videos! I had to stop somewhere in the middle but will finish watching them when I get the chance.



YW Ava, I'm looking again too, as there are lots of thinking areas, such as the one Jester mentioned, it hadn't registered with me, so am thinking about that now.
I'm in no way any kind of authority on bodily chemicals that may cause certain behaviour.

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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

zorba wrote:
Jester wrote:
zorba wrote:
Jester wrote:
Gotta love this:

"16 Polizisten hätten sie 14 Stunden lang befragt. Die Amerikanerin hätte währenddessen nichts zu Essen oder zu Trinken bekommen und durfte nicht auf die Toilette gehen. Und: Das Verhör fand auf italienisch statt – ohne Übersetzer!"

16 police officers questioned her for 14 hours. The American had nothing to eat or drink and was not allowed to use the toilet. And: the interrogation took place without an interpreter!

Gasp! On what planet did this happen?

http://www.bild.de/news/inland/amanda-k ... .bild.html


I think they're confusing the issue with a concentration camp in Poland.


But of course ... Knox isn't really the creep that ridicules Jewish people by saying "my people killed your people", she's now a victim at Auschwitz.


Yeah, I just checked the above vid out, but after all the introductions, I'd already had enough, and switched it off, what good will it do me to put myself through watching warped Mellas say his usual stuff.
The woman with Mellas, was that Knox's aunt, she seemed to understand German, or perhaps she just recognised her name.


Watching A German version of the lie machine, can't be useful.

What an odd bunch of German people too, the tough looking guy with the coloured beads around his neck, what is he all about.

It's weird, for instance, in Britain there have never ever been a lot of foreign language films, plays or whatever shown on TV, if one is shown, it'll be overdubbed, so that they appear to be speaking English even though the film was French or whatever, as British people are not great at learning other languages, certainly not compared to say people in the Netherlands where many people are able to speak 2 to 3 extra languages and often, 6 languages, 6 by no means being a rarity. In Germany or France, where they are very into their own languages, they do the same as is done in Britain, cowboy films with the old famous stars, Cary Grant, John Wayne, speaking German.

God knows it must be easy for Mellas to tell them anything he likes, what kind of understanding are people in Germany, in general, going to have of this case? I do not think a lot, simply because a majority of people in Germany do not have a good command of English.

I bet that in the above video, there was nobody present who knew the case inside out and opposed the idea, as put out by her family and their propaganda machine, that Knox is innocent.


I really don't get all these aunts that Knox has all over the place. Edda's mother was born in Germany, but she moved to Seattle long, long ago. Why would there be any siblings of Edda in Germany? The aunt in that show doesn't look like the aunt that I saw at some other time, and then we have the aunt in Seattle.

It looked like one of those talk shows where the guests get heckled after the show.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Ava wrote:
Jester wrote:
From the German video ... What? Knox is still having trouble sleeping and eating? Is her hair also falling out again?

Mellas has perfected the art of imitating a garden gnome while he sits amongst people speaking a language where he knows not one word.

After the criminologist talks about why it's quite possible that Knox was involved, we get the "aunt" (Knox sure has a lot of aunts all over the place) claiming that police forced Knox to implicate herself - same ole' same ole'.

Gag ... the journalist makes more excuses for Knox than Knox herself.

And there's Mellas with his 52 hours and all the crap about coercion - I guess there's nothing to explain Knox except lies.

I wish they didn't talk so fast ... my German is very rusty.



He does look like a garden gnome, doesn't he? :)
It's really same ole same ole.
The "aunt" is Edda's cousin, so that would make her Amanda's grand-cousin, I suppose?
The journalist started out with a more impartial attitude btw (AK could be guilty, but she could also be innocent), and I think was maybe a little insecure and also unexperienced. She had probably talked to CM shortly before the show, as they usually do, and was "under the influence".
And "Bild" is really one of the worst tabloids, they go for high emotions and sensationalism, not necessarily the truth.

And thanks, Zorba, for the videos! I had to stop somewhere in the middle but will finish watching them when I get the chance.


Thank you ... I haven't used German for at least 15 years so I was only catching bits of it.
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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jester wrote:

I really don't get all these aunts that Knox has all over the place. Edda's mother was born in Germany, but she moved to Seattle long, long ago. Why would there be any siblings of Edda in Germany? The aunt in that show doesn't look like the aunt that I saw at some other time, and then we have the aunt in Seattle.

It looked like one of those talk shows where the guests get heckled after the show.



Not that I'm especially interested in Amanda's genealogy, but I think it's always the same aunt/second cousin, the one Amanda was staying with before she went to Perugia and who also testified in court.
You're right though, she looked a bit different some time ago (the hairstyle, I believe).


Last edited by Ava on Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

I just finished watching the last of the videos posted above ... and I started laughing at the defence of "bad gene" that resulted in the verdict of manslaughter. That's a bit silly. It more or less says that people with bad genes shouldn't be responsible for their actions, should be given lenience and should be free to roam among society until that bad gene accidentally causes them to murder again - and then more lenience. I think the verdict in the Tennessee case is like the Casey Anthony case ... bamboozled jury.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
It's actually a lot worse then a tabloid...really low end of the market. Oggi has been championing their cause from the start. Stefano Nazzi seems to be a Knox sympathiser and he writes most of the stories. In return the family give him access and their experts feed him 'exclusives'. It was Nazzi who photographed Knox's sisters by the cottage I believe.


Hi Michael,

if I recall correctly, Stefano Nazzi writes for the weekly magazine Gente. Yeah, definitely a believer in Knox's/Sollecito's innocence.

STEFANO NAZZI

Another staunch Knox sympathizer, Giangavino Sulas is a journalist for Oggi magazine and one of the co-authors of the "sensational" story about Meredith's light blue jacket that the forensic team allegedly pulled out of a laundry hamper on Dec 18th.

The latest on the case from Stefano Nazzi's blog (nothing new or original, just an appeal trial recap):

Quote:
Meredith Kercher, the hearing closed. The court says no to new expertise required by the prosecution
07.09.2011
By Stefano Nazzi

The debate is over, it's back in court Sept. 23 for the indictment and the plea of ​​the prosecution lawyers. Then the sentence. Perugia is about to end so the appeal trial for the murder of Meredith Kercher. And it ends with no new expertise required by the PM. The court found "unnecessary" any new genetic survey. What we found is sufficient. The non-partisan experts, appointed by the court, have challenged the valuations of the leading forensic [scientist] at first instance to the conviction of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: second opinion requested by the court in this appeal process is not possible to detect the DNA of Sollecito and Knox, nor on the bra of Meredith Kercher or the knife that had been designated as the murder weapon. Now the word is to the jury. For the first time in four years the two young people, in prison since November 2007, see the near future with some hope.


STEFANO NAZZI BLOG
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 2:47 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Here we go again...

Rewrite Perugia

July 4, 2011
By Stefano Nazzi

GOOGLE TRANSLATE

At the appeal hearing of Perugia for the murder of Meredith Kercher will probably reach the decision in September. Of course, it all seems very different from the first trial, everything has been put in doubt the scientific expertise they have in fact given a resounding blow to the charge: there is nothing to indicate the presence of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito on the scene of the crime, was murdered in the house where British student.

I'll have someone in the press, do you have any questions. To quote a cliche, "thinking it would take." Because the history of Perugia is a classic example of parallel process, conducted in the papers, basted and invented beyond anything real or unreal, beyond any clue or evidence presented in court.

We have to go back four years to November of 2007, to reread the articles relate to the endless TV broadcasts Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito were "sweethearts evil", the "new Erika and Omar," the students had become a Perugia species of Sodom in whose home they followed the religion of sex, drugs and alcohol. Knox was a "dark lady" even though she was twenty. A little girl was transformed into a "maneater" one that "smoked the pipe." He went in search of every boy who had kissed him, someone flew to Seattle in a sort of spasmodic search: "Sorry, you have been with Amanda Knox?" And on Facebook you tried the most idiotic pictures to all those in a museum in which she pretends to fire a machine gun, or movies where tipsy at a party, says stupid things. Also to say "Here it is the killer, there he is her accomplice." No: Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito were made in the form of guilty, that's it, there is almost no need for investigations, they are the killers. Above her, so twenty years old, so uninhibited, so American. Then somebody has started to doubt them, and write. And the others, those already convinced, asking: "So who was it?" To then say, "Sure, it's easy to blame the whole poor, black, Rudy Guede. While those two will be saved because they are rich kids. " And go and explain that the children of fathers are in prison and have not saved at all and that the reasonable doubt in this story are as big as houses. And if there's one thing certain, incontrovertible and accepted, is that Rudy Guede was in the house the night of the murder.

There was a constant accompaniment in this matter of who, in newspapers, on TV, on websites, without knowing anything about evidence, testimony, scientific reconstructions, has conducted its review process. Think their processes, their guilty to their murders. As if it were a race Italy-United States, in an absurd game of nationalism such as "At home we decide." Of course, we decide. But what? Based on what?

It happened something similar in Garlasco for the murder of Chiara Poggi. Remember? He spoke of the cold-eyed blond, that it was cold, unemotional. So guilty. It took a good judge, young, one of those who are taking their work to read the folders that you are obsessed with the truth, to clear the field from all that was suggestive. Via this history of ice-blue eyes, suits on psychological analysis of TV in the afternoon. Where is the evidence? There is your honor. That's how Alberto Stasi, the cold-eyed blond, was acquitted. There is no evidence, that counts. And the TV commentators, those of psychology textbook in installments to say, "But how, you said ....".

In Perugia hours. Where a jury president has painstakingly done what should have been done long ago. We make impartial assessments, analyzing the evidence, real or imagined, is affected by the witnesses. And most are thrown off the table the thousands of pages of newspapers that had already decided to write everything down to the final ruling for the dark lady and her faithful accomplice.


Why Knox and Sollecito have been in prison?

June 29, 2011
By Stefano Nazzi

The experts wrote: "Do not you share some conclusions about the attribution of the profile detected on the track B (knife blade) to the victim Meredith Kercher because the genetic profile, as obtained, is unreliable because it is not supported by scientifically validated analytical procedures". The knife in question is what, in the first trial, was referred to as the murder weapon, the one that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito have killed Meredith Kercher on the night between 1 and 2 November 2007. In practice, say the experts, the results of scientific analysis conducted by the police do not give reliable results. Indeed, it is precisely to contest.

Then there's the other findings discussed: the hook of the bra found at the scene of the crime. Of what the experts say: "We can not exclude that the results obtained may result from the phenomena of environmental contamination and / or contamination arising at any stage of the repertoire and / or manipulation." That hook was for 40 days on the floor of the house of Meredith Kercher before anyone would gather and repertoire. It is obvious that the contamination was possible. The experts add that "were not followed international procedures and protocol of inspection and sampling of specimen collection."

The two experts who have drawn these conclusions are Stefano Conti and Carla Vecchiotti. Were appointed by the president of the jury of appeal trial of Perugia. They are therefore non-partisan experts: they had to analyze the findings (which had been carried out analysis is not repeatable) and check the reliability of scientific expert reports by the police. The results leave little doubt.

The fact is, however, that defense lawyers for Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito have strongly advocated that these surveys were also carried out in the first trial. The judges refused, Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito were sentenced to 26 and 25 years in prison. Because these reports were not made before? That verdict would have been if even then, in December of 2009, the jury had in hand these results?

We are at this point: the surveys say that nothing, absolutely nothing, puts two guys on the scene of the crime. A witness who at first instance had been of great importance, Antonio Curatolo, and claimed to have seen Amanda and Raffaele together the night of November 1, went in the second degree in confusion: he did not know which day had actually seen the two boys. Rudy Guede, when questioned, says he is certain that the killers were Amanda and Raffaele. But does not respond to questions about that night, and before say he is convinced that he had always known that this was so, said he saw a shadow and heard a voice. Shadows and voices. Rudy Guede is the only one of which has been detected in that house. His tracks have been found in the bathroom. And he in fact has always said that he went into the bathroom and, once released, they have found stabbed Meredith Kercher. Speaking precisely, the voices and shadows. The same Guede among other things, he told a fellow prisoner of Viterbo, Mario Alessi, a completely different story. And that is that into the house he and Meredith were a friend and it was to kill the girl before her eyes. Guede has denied this version, then reiterating once again the story of the bathroom.

At this point the question arises: why are four years in prison for Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito?


STEFANO NAZZI

He sounds a bit like Candace.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:46 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:56 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

zorba wrote:
JESTER: Cocaine is the sort of drug that people want several times through the night. It's an intense high that makes time go fast and the higher they get, the more they want. The entire night becomes a blur and some things remain a blur. The following couple of days are also a blur. This is exactly what we have seen in Knox. She has patches of memories from the night of the murder, and she is so confused in the following days that she can't keep her lies straight. When questioned by police, she answered with what she thought they wanted to hear, not what she should have been able to figure out. When she described the best imaginings she can remember, or whatever it is she was saying, she is probably describing fragmented memories from a night of serious drug use ... and it wasn't hashish.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Agree with this possible explanation too.
And on the coke, yeah, I've been in houses where they were truly into it, and I want, it was like they wanted me to be in it too, so when given a line and I didn't take it, I did not actually make eye contact with them but I felt exactly what was going ion as I wasn't born yesterday, the longer that unused line remained on the CD case (substitute mirror) the more uptight it made them, I didn't give a shit but they did, they wanted me to use it or they wanted it themselves. I hated the whole lot of it knowing full well how these people were through the coke....


Hi Jester and Zorba - I've never tried cocaine so I've got some dumb questions: If someone's a bit of a light weight with alcohol (video of Knox sloppy-drunk but claiming to have only had 1 and 1/2 shots), are they more likely to be the sort that has trouble handling the high from cocaine? Have you ever seen a first-timer react poorly?
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:59 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

zorba wrote:
Jiin Fallon neuroscientist, the BBC doc I watched the other day, showing his work, a link here to him and his work...


Great link, Zorba. Thanks.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 8:44 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

capealadin wrote:
Jackie,

I tell ya, no matter how my day is, when I see *you*, your avatars, Jesters pics, a smile and dimples appear. Because some times, humour is necessary, no?

For me, it was not the knife, bra clasp or the witnesses. I became drawn to this case, when I read that an innocent young girl was falsely arrested.

In a very short time, I realized this was not the case...


Cape, the same thing happens to me whenever I see that you've decided to take another round out of them over at the JLOL. I love to see you work those disingenuous bastards into a frenzy. How do you do it?! You NEVER resort to their underhanded tactics! It's beautiful! There's just something about you. It's as though they NEED your approval. They're pretty quick to dismiss "guilters" as irrational/ demented/ hate-filled/ jealous/ mentally defective/ repugnant/ vile/ ignorant/ etc., but they can't quite bring themselves to ignore you. Somehow they've figured out that you're none of those awful things.

You know what first drew me in? An audio-only recording of Knox at a pretrial hearing.

It was her chance to explain to the court why she'd admitted to being present while falsely accusing PL. You know, the whole ' ...I can explain...the reason is...because...they kept asking the same questions...over and over...and they called me a liar...a stupid liar...and, so, the reason I gave them Patrick's name..I can explain...the reason is...because...sob...they kept asking the same questions...over and over...and they called me a liar...a stupid liar...sob' (please excuse my paraphrasing)

Before that, I thought there must be some mistake (A studious girl next door type rapes and stabs another woman, WTF?), but after listening to that recording, I thought, You have got to be ****ing kidding me! A 3rd year university student?! And THAT's the best she can do to "explain" herself?! The police repeated their questions (per every cop show ever made) and called her a "stupid liar"?! That's IT?!

Barring some sort of mental or psychological defect, nothing short of electrocution could justify what she'd done.

The hooks were in.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:23 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Hi Jackie.

How do I do it? I think it's because I come from a place, inside me, that cries out for justice. Because, the dead don't have a voice, except for their loved ones, and the ones seeking justice. The victim is forgotten, for the most part, and it's just not right.

There is a certainty, for me, that the right people are in prison. An absolute certainty. Murders were solved, before the time of DNA, the modern forensics. And, few murders had eyewitnesses. And, 99% or more of murderers, deny involvement.

Now, why do people lie? To avoid taking responsibility for their actions. I believe Amanda lies, because the truth is worse than any lie she can come up with.

Another thing that drew me to this case. The total lack of EMPATHY. That always gets to me. It's an interesting case, on may levels. Not least, BECAUSE of the kind of people, WANTING her to be innocent. But, hey, I really DO NOT want to go there. :) It's beyond creepy, to me.

I have to agree with you. The audio recordings, and watching Amanda. Every hair just crinkled. I was looking and hearing evil. And, for WHAT? This needless, senseless, taking of a life.

To me, Amanda is a psycopath. Through and through. And, I have to wonder what is wrong with people, who are so vitriolic, that they attack the victim's family. This pretty much tells me all I have to, or want to know about them.

You're always a pleasure to engage with, Jackie. There's something about YOU. I felt it the first time I read your posts. You're so on point, very clever, and so engaging. It's a good thing I'm too old for you :)

And, btw, You had me totally, with Baghdad Bob. With that awful war, it was the one thing that had me in hysterics. Who could forget that pic of him, saying * WE HAVE THEM SURROUNDED*, as the Americans crested the hill behind him. eee-)

Delusional. Same as the Foakers. ss)

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Last edited by capealadin on Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 2:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jackie wrote:
zorba wrote:
JESTER: Cocaine is the sort of drug that people want several times through the night. It's an intense high that makes time go fast and the higher they get, the more they want. The entire night becomes a blur and some things remain a blur. The following couple of days are also a blur. This is exactly what we have seen in Knox. She has patches of memories from the night of the murder, and she is so confused in the following days that she can't keep her lies straight. When questioned by police, she answered with what she thought they wanted to hear, not what she should have been able to figure out. When she described the best imaginings she can remember, or whatever it is she was saying, she is probably describing fragmented memories from a night of serious drug use ... and it wasn't hashish.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Agree with this possible explanation too.
And on the coke, yeah, I've been in houses where they were truly into it, and I want, it was like they wanted me to be in it too, so when given a line and I didn't take it, I did not actually make eye contact with them but I felt exactly what was going ion as I wasn't born yesterday, the longer that unused line remained on the CD case (substitute mirror) the more uptight it made them, I didn't give a shit but they did, they wanted me to use it or they wanted it themselves. I hated the whole lot of it knowing full well how these people were through the coke....


Hi Jester and Zorba - I've never tried cocaine so I've got some dumb questions: If someone's a bit of a light weight with alcohol (video of Knox sloppy-drunk but claiming to have only had 1 and 1/2 shots), are they more likely to be the sort that has trouble handling the high from cocaine? Have you ever seen a first-timer react poorly?


I did it once about 20 years ago to see what it was like. I do know that it was the sort of thing that once you had a little, you did want more - to kind of keep the high going. I know that I was really wired for the entire night and that we (there were four of us) were all over the place ... various clubs and so on - adding alcohol to the mix. For me, the entire night was a complete blur after the fact. There is absolutely no way I could have recounted the events of the night no matter how hard I tried. All the senses seemed to be on overdrive. We were a very coherent group of four even though I had only met two of the people once or twice - I knew them about as well as Knox knew Guede. I do remember that there was one close call in terms of an altercation between one of the people I was with and another person, but that is all a blur too. I didn't understand it at the time, and I still don't understand it. After that, I cut contact with all three people. They were not first time users, like I was. All I wanted to do afterwards was sleep for a very long time. Knox's memory wipe and confusion could easily have been caused by using cocaine for the first time on Nov 1. Using cocaine in a group, like I did, made us a team for the night although they were not the type of people I would normally team up with. I also recall that it was easy to have the wrong perceptions about things. I wouldn't recommend the experience to anyone, but it did satisfy my curiosity.


Last edited by Jester on Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jester wrote:

Behavioral science was used in this murder investigation, but Knox supporters would like us to believe that after centuries of being sound science in murder investigations, it is suddenly junk science. I suppose that would suggest that FBI profilers are practicing junk science, or that there is no connection between experience and behavioral reactions - which simply isn't true. In the last few years we've been hearing the nonsense that: everyone grieves differently and strange/abnormal behaviors of murderers should be viewed as quirky personalities rather than suspicious behavior. Is it prosecutorial misconduct and malicious forensics, or malicious prosecution and forenic misconduct (or whatever combination of complaints that are possible) with respect to Knox, the quirky, lying clairvoyant? OR was it old fashioned police work where a convicted murderer was called out for having information about a murder before it was investigated, and who did everything in her power to escape justice?


And it was behavioural science that convinced me of their guilt too, Jester. Canadians have a strong history of supporting the wrongfully accused, but clearly, Knox and Sollecito are not.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Ergon wrote:
Jester wrote:

Behavioral science was used in this murder investigation, but Knox supporters would like us to believe that after centuries of being sound science in murder investigations, it is suddenly junk science. I suppose that would suggest that FBI profilers are practicing junk science, or that there is no connection between experience and behavioral reactions - which simply isn't true. In the last few years we've been hearing the nonsense that: everyone grieves differently and strange/abnormal behaviors of murderers should be viewed as quirky personalities rather than suspicious behavior. Is it prosecutorial misconduct and malicious forensics, or malicious prosecution and forenic misconduct (or whatever combination of complaints that are possible) with respect to Knox, the quirky, lying clairvoyant? OR was it old fashioned police work where a convicted murderer was called out for having information about a murder before it was investigated, and who did everything in her power to escape justice?


And it was behavioural science that convinced me of their guilt too, Jester. Canadians have a strong history of supporting the wrongfully accused, but clearly, Knox and Sollecito are not.


I think the Guy Paul Morin case was a pretty big eye opener for police and prosecutors in terms of understanding the problems of tunnel vision. With Paul Bernardo, more problems were exposed, particularly the lack of cooperation between jurisdictions and the slow turnover in DNA labs. With Russell Williams, both tunnel vision and lack of cooperation probems were overcome. Tunnel vision would have caused police to look for someone with a long history of criminal activities leading up to the murders committed by Williams, and a lack of cooperation between jurisdictions would have left police thinking that the related burglaries, assaults, murders were unconnectd. As it was, cooperation and open mindedness led to the quick arrest of the most unlikely suspect.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:38 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jester wrote:
Zorba ... just watching the videos you loaded about brain and behavioral science. When I heard oxytocin mentioned (part 2), I recognized it as the drug/hormone that is given to women to induce labour, and which is also present in high quantities naturally during child birth. The neuroscientists are equating oxytocin to empathy. If this is a natural occurring hormone during childbirth, how does that fit into the empathy argument? Is this the hormone that makes women want to care for their new offspring? If testosterone is equated to aggression, how does that impact men and women as they age? As we age, men's testosterone levels decrease and women's testosterone levels increase. I've often joked about this with my son, pointing out that when females are young, they want to talk about their feelings and males really couldn't care less. As males and females age, men want to talk about their feelings and women don't really seem to care much about it anymore. In the debate with my son, I point out that the shift in women to not care much about discussing feelings could be a learned response, but it could also be that testosterone is the culprit.

There are certainly some interesting points in the documentary, but I'm not convinced that babies choosing the toy that played nice, or not nice, with the ball is conclusive. Some children that choose the toy that took the ball may think that they can get the ball back from that toy - hard to say.


@Zorba and Jester, the theory is that psychopaths lack the 'empathy' hormone Oxytocin. Drug and alcohol use can also affect hormone production, like temporarily increase aggression, or reduce inhibition. Another question I would love to get the answer to one day: Was Amanda Knox prescribed Ritalin or Adderall for her probable ADHD? It's overprescribed in the U.S., imo, and oddly enough, it's teachers that tend to first suggest to parents their child should be medicated. That would explain much.

Of course, another plug :) for my article The Criminal Mind http://manfromatlan.blogspot.com/2011/0 ... -mind.html which is a little more detailed than the shorter one that was published on TJMK.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Ergon wrote:
Jester wrote:
Zorba ... just watching the videos you loaded about brain and behavioral science. When I heard oxytocin mentioned (part 2), I recognized it as the drug/hormone that is given to women to induce labour, and which is also present in high quantities naturally during child birth. The neuroscientists are equating oxytocin to empathy. If this is a natural occurring hormone during childbirth, how does that fit into the empathy argument? Is this the hormone that makes women want to care for their new offspring? If testosterone is equated to aggression, how does that impact men and women as they age? As we age, men's testosterone levels decrease and women's testosterone levels increase. I've often joked about this with my son, pointing out that when females are young, they want to talk about their feelings and males really couldn't care less. As males and females age, men want to talk about their feelings and women don't really seem to care much about it anymore. In the debate with my son, I point out that the shift in women to not care much about discussing feelings could be a learned response, but it could also be that testosterone is the culprit.

There are certainly some interesting points in the documentary, but I'm not convinced that babies choosing the toy that played nice, or not nice, with the ball is conclusive. Some children that choose the toy that took the ball may think that they can get the ball back from that toy - hard to say.


@Zorba and Jester, the theory is that psychopaths lack the 'empathy' hormone Oxytocin. Drug and alcohol use can also affect hormone production, like temporarily increase aggression, or reduce inhibition. Another question I would love to get the answer to one day: Was Amanda Knox prescribed Ritalin or Adderall for her probable ADHD? It's overprescribed in the U.S., imo, and oddly enough, it's teachers that tend to first suggest to parents their child should be medicated. That would explain much.

Of course, another plug :) for my article The Criminal Mind http://manfromatlan.blogspot.com/2011/0 ... -mind.html which is a little more detailed than the shorter one that was published on TJMK.


Very interesting! I just looked up oxytocin and cocaine, and sure enough cocaine results in a reduction of the natural hormone oxytocin in the brain. That would suggest that cocaine reduces empathy and increases aggression. I think it's always been known that cocaine users are prone to irrational aggression, but this suggests that it could be a direct result of reduced oxytocin levels.

If Sollecito, Knox and Guede used cocaine that night, none of them would say a word about it because cocaine use would make the murder that much easier to understand.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 4:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Those Knox supporters sure are a funny crowd. They are so very desperate to discredit people. First they attacked the prosecutor. That didn't work. Then it was the police, then the forensics, then the lawyers and they don't stop there. Next they attack the people they are debating the case with. They want to turn those debating the case into a battle of the experts where they claim that someone arguing the point that Knox is unjustly convicted has more credentials than someone arguing the point that Knox is justifiably convicted. They are in fact a bit of a scary crowd because they seem to want any personal information they can get on those debating the case.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 4:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jackie wrote:
zorba wrote:
JESTER: Cocaine is the sort of drug that people want several times through the night. It's an intense high that makes time go fast and the higher they get, the more they want. The entire night becomes a blur and some things remain a blur. The following couple of days are also a blur. This is exactly what we have seen in Knox. She has patches of memories from the night of the murder, and she is so confused in the following days that she can't keep her lies straight. When questioned by police, she answered with what she thought they wanted to hear, not what she should have been able to figure out.When she described the best imaginings she can remember, or whatever it is she was saying, she is probably describing fragmented memories from a night of serious drug use ... and it wasn't hashish.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Agree with this possible explanation too.
And on the coke, yeah, I've been in houses where they were truly into it, and I want, it was like they wanted me to be in it too, so when given a line and I didn't take it, I did not actually make eye contact with them but I felt exactly what was going ion as I wasn't born yesterday, the longer that unused line remained on the CD case (substitute mirror) the more uptight it made them, I didn't give a shit but they did, they wanted me to use it or they wanted it themselves. I hated the whole lot of it knowing full well how these people were through the coke....


Hi Jester and Zorba - I've never tried cocaine so I've got some dumb questions: If someone's a bit of a light weight with alcohol (video of Knox sloppy-drunk but claiming to have only had 1 and 1/2 shots), are they more likely to be the sort that has trouble handling the high from cocaine? Have you ever seen a first-timer react poorly?



Hello Jackie.

1) If someone's a bit of a light weight with alcohol (video of Knox sloppy-drunk but claiming to have only had 1 and 1/2 shots), are they more likely to be the sort that has trouble handling the high from cocaine?

2) Have you ever seen a first-timer react poorly?



I'd say that every type of substance can have a different type of effect on any and every different individual.

There are different classes of substances.

a) The hallucinogenic = hash/weed (mildly hallucinogenic-sometimes), LSD, psilocybin, etc
b) The uppers = cocaine, amphetamine (speed), ketamine, etc
c) The downers = alcohol, opiates such as the opium derivatives morphine and heroin, sleeping tablets such as barbiturates, tranquillizers, etc.



1) there is no fixed way, or even terms of likelihood as people are so different to one another, you cannot state with certainty that a person will react one way or another.
2) Yes, I have seen people react poorly, for instance, become a pain to be around,
after their very first line. A person who I saw for instance would become a total coke head, just by observing what coke did. Whereas others take coke all day long and hold down full-time jobs.

What may initially seem like an upper, may in fact be a downer = alcohol = the removal of inhibitory factors at first only to be replaced by partial or complete incoherence later on, as more alcohol is consumed.

Some people have hardened themselves/their nervous systems in that they are used to bombarding their ordinary waking state, their clean selves, and are able to take a lot of bombardment even if they are new to an experience they would I would say, be more like;y to manage themselves than someone who has hardly any experience in anything.

A person who has used speed for years or has used alcohol a lot will be more able to take lot of different types of effects on their nervous systems.

So even though cocaine and alcohol are two different types of things, uppers and downers, mostly from what I've seen, people using coke and plenty of it, do like drinking beer, and other alcohol.
Part of the difference with this wildness and simply having a few joints is that the nature of cocaine is that it is a stimulant whereas, I do not see that hash or weed is.
When I say substance-stimulant I mean that the level one engages in on cocaine, is that of getting kicks.

This bit of it relates to heroin and speed, though heroin is in a different league, it is about getting kicks, it is not like taking an hallucinatory substance with any idea of opening one's mind or having visions or gaining insights or using it as a medicine as are Magic Mushroom, psilocybin and many others like that are used in cultures around the world, such as in South America, and amongst various types of Shamans, where the hallucinatory substance is ingested as part of a sacred rite of passage into the spirit world, used as a tool to help a person.

There's nothing of this with the uppers and downers.
Even if a person knows nothing of spirit world ideas, or does not engage in taking an hallucinatory substance with any of the ideas/intentions like of gaining insight or perhaps healing oneself, nonetheless, if one does take an hallucinatory substance one may still arrive at some point at profound insights. One may start to get interested in understanding what took place or what does take place.

''If not freaking out first", and definitely after several sessions of it one may enter upon the exercise with a clear intention, with the idea of the substance working as a helper, a remedy. This is true of Magic Mushrooms, less so of LSD.
LSD is way too strong and anyone taking that for a first time, whatever they have ever taken, will find the world as they know it dissolving. They will, invariously, go beyond the sensorial, and actually end up in some kind of a driver's seat, in tune with their spirit, behind the front facade of senses. This last-mentioned is when things are at their best; even if one does get in tune with one's spirit one may not know that this is what is taking place or how to use that, considering most people, whoever they are, when taking LSD the first few times, if having not read up on it or having any proper advice will not have a clue what it is that is actually happening to them, whether good things or bad and then again, even if one does have info and help it is still not a drug that is easy to manage/handle.

Most times, it's just too much, different to every other type of drug experience, uncontrollable. That's whee the expression go with the flow came from, yeah, because that is about all you can do when high on it.

Many though will ingest LSD, and just enjoy seeing the exterior things playing tricks on their eyes, solids dissolving, morphing into other forms, perceptions entirely altered, into unimaginably beautiful things or through just a single thought, into nightmarishly horrifying things.
It's through hallucinogenics that people (may) discover just what power their own thoughts have.
If very up on LSD one can visualise just about anything. In the wrong company it can be terrible.
That's why some said that if you are going to take LSD make sure you have someone around you who is experienced, and make sure you are in an environment that will be beneficial to you having a positive experience, so not at home with mum and dad or at work, obviously, or in any public place where people are going to be saying the usual run of the mill superficial insincere nonsense that people do say all the time.
This stuff can seriously put a person on a bad trip just trying to deal with the vibes that run right through to your marrow.

SPEED: Mostly, if a person is not used to amphetamine, they will be unable (in most cases) to ingest much of anything whether food or drink. Again, initially, I would say, from what I've seen and experienced, amphetamine is something that is able to de-adjust, malign a person's sense of reality, I would say even more so than cocaine is able to do. Yet, I've seen someone, for instance, just have a line of coke, and be unable to be the person he usually was, unable to play the guitar while normally being very able to.

Different drugs and substances can have this effect. Someone going up on an LSD trip will find that they are experiencing a world that they'd never seen, everything they thought was real, dissolving. Unable to do anything but perhaps lie on their back and be into the experience, unable to talk.


HEROIN: of all drugs, being just about the most addictive, along with cocaine, will drive a person to do anything that needs to be done in order to score some more heroin.
Everything that had been important falling away including and majorly sensitivity, feelings of responsibility towards the self or others, these elements becoming things that no longer get a look in. The addiction takes over/dominates everything, your feelings of responsibility and care for your loved ones included, making you change and not care, be unable to care.

With heroin, a person addicted, will be unable to think of anything else.

Yet once the person has scored and used, within that period of the drug being effective/active in the bloodstream, the person will be quite laid back, as opposed to someone on cocaine, who is not laid back but very much in everyone’s face, and full of themselves, thinking that they are really great, feeling great but for someone who is simply clean the face to face with a person high on coke can be highly unpleasant, where the person seeing the person on coke, does not see them as being nice and great and pleasant or any of the rest of it at all, but rather as unpleasant and not okay instead.

The effects of being high on coke is not something that can be compared to memory loss.
In the rosy cushion-like effects of cocaine one does have their wits about them, very much so, it's just the things that they think they see so clearly and the reasons they think they are feeling so great, the kick, while high, is removed as soon as one is no longer high, once the effects have worn off, a person cannot access the high anymore, but they do know where they were and what they did and who was there. After all cocaine is in no way a downer, whereas with a sleeping pill, a tranquilizer, one has a heightened state of awareness, reactions are speeded up but not in the nasty cheap way that this also happens when high on speed.

On LSD, one could see things that truly are not there, as in hallucinations, hell-like or heavenly but NOT on cocaine, cocaine is not about the visual aspects of altered sensory perceptions. Though people high on coke are often able to eat, mostly they too, like a person on speed, will have little interest in food, but after a session of a day or two up and partying, a person may eat like a horse.
Others who use speed or coke all the time may have none of this, even a speed freak being able to eat, whereas for a sometimes user, it'd be near impossible to even swallow a bite, just undoable.

A combination of different stimulants and substances can/may have potentially terrible effects. Maybe those high on different substances feel great at the time, but any good effect for instance, let's say of having been pleasantly high from smoking a few joints, is cancelled out by the contrasting nature of a different substance that overrides the first and so on. So alcohol takes the edge off of the cocaine high, I've known enough cocaine users who I know enjoyed booze because of this, high on coke they'd drink an awful lot too, beer mostly, but if someone happened to have a bottle of something strong, most of those present would gladly indulge in that too. The entire thing is kicks tha'ts why, the more the merrier, right up until total wipe-out/off your facedness.

A person high on heroin will use coke if it's there/available (for free) but if a person is a true heroin addict he/she will primarily be wanting the heroin and any cocaine use is more like a luxurious added extra, take it or leave it or take it if there is nothing else available.

It's well known that many who get into speed (amphetamine) do it, often, because it's such a cheap drug. Speed will destroy a person faster than cocaine will, especially if the coke is clean.
Coke is made from green leaves of the cocaine plant, indigenous to South American countries, speed is a substance processed through purely chemical means.

Of course, amphetamine is something that can also be derived from plants, but the stuff most people use, is all chemical based.

You know with the turning phones off, that strikes me as being part of a precautionary measure, for them to be able to do something, not to murder Meredith, but to do something what was to them adventurous; the plan to take certain drugs and to experience them and not be disturbed.
So once they had done that and were in that, the things that ensued, easily turned into nasty wickedness, but are not complicated in the way some seem to imagine,

It does not stand to reason that Knox and Sollecito wold have planned to murder Meredith right there in Knox’s own home, and so they in no way set about turning off the phones with a wicked intention.

My view is that this murder was carried out for the most futile of reasons, the reasons being simply that there were actually no real reasons, it was a spontaneous run of bad, bad vibes and thoughts, and a mix of Knox’s problems coming out.

I do believe control was lost, but I believe that Knox had issues that were just all unleashed by the aid of the shit they took.

It was not LSD. It was not smoking weed or hash that could have pushed them into such depths, it had to be a mixture, I'd say of coke/speed, possibly with XTC.

XTC being the ingredient that could get people into entering areas of promiscuity, but that mixed with coke, perhaps later on, and even speed additionally, could have really warped them up.

They could both have been hardened drinkers but I don't think that would have necessarily made them more ale to take the effects of cocaine, because one person may take cocaine and be able to remain quite calm, for the outside world at least appear that way, while another person will not stop talking, or just lose the plot, but coke isn't like LSD or being high on weed, as it is a different degree of being high, it is a stimulant and it wears off fast and if you like it you just want to keep having that high, and that's where addiction steps in. I say a certain type of individual may remain calm on coke but mostly, from what I've seen coke users are pretty hyper.

Someone who has very little experience with ANY substances, like never drinking, not smoked weed, none of it, will I reckon get pretty whacked if using coke.
Someone who drinks a lot (or who has used a lot o speed or heroin), though taking a different type of substance, an upper with coke as opposed to a downer like alcohol, will, though undergoing two totally different effects (uppers & downers), at least be used to doing things to the own nervous system that are not natural. So it really is pretty hard to answer your question(s).

Yes, I'm realising as I write, that someone who is used to drinking may not be as heavily affected by a bit of coke as someone might who has always been entirely clean. Alcohol is already a heavy substance, it is a hard drug.

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Last edited by zorba on Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:40 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 4:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

guermantes wrote:
Michael wrote:
It's actually a lot worse then a tabloid...really low end of the market. Oggi has been championing their cause from the start. Stefano Nazzi seems to be a Knox sympathiser and he writes most of the stories. In return the family give him access and their experts feed him 'exclusives'. It was Nazzi who photographed Knox's sisters by the cottage I believe.


Hi Michael,

if I recall correctly, Stefano Nazzi writes for the weekly magazine Gente. Yeah, definitely a believer in Knox's/Sollecito's innocence.

STEFANO NAZZI

Another staunch Knox sympathizer, Giangavino Sulas is a journalist for Oggi magazine and one of the co-authors of the "sensational" story about Meredith's light blue jacket that the forensic team allegedly pulled out of a laundry hamper on Dec 18th.

The latest on the case from Stefano Nazzi's blog (nothing new or original, just an appeal trial recap):

Quote:
Meredith Kercher, the hearing closed. The court says no to new expertise required by the prosecution
07.09.2011
By Stefano Nazzi

The debate is over, it's back in court Sept. 23 for the indictment and the plea of ​​the prosecution lawyers. Then the sentence. Perugia is about to end so the appeal trial for the murder of Meredith Kercher. And it ends with no new expertise required by the PM. The court found "unnecessary" any new genetic survey. What we found is sufficient. The non-partisan experts, appointed by the court, have challenged the valuations of the leading forensic [scientist] at first instance to the conviction of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: second opinion requested by the court in this appeal process is not possible to detect the DNA of Sollecito and Knox, nor on the bra of Meredith Kercher or the knife that had been designated as the murder weapon. Now the word is to the jury. For the first time in four years the two young people, in prison since November 2007, see the near future with some hope.


STEFANO NAZZI BLOG




Thanks Guermantes. It looks like I got Nazzi and Sulas and the publications they reported for mixed up. It seems that Nazzi and Gente tend to be close to the Melloxes, whereas Oggi tends to be used by the legal teams (and their experts), primarily the Sollecito people.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 4:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jester wrote:




:) :) :)

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 4:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

A person, an habitual drinker may not even enjoy having the consciousness awakened in any way, as far as that goes alcohol and heroin are enjoyed for the same reasons; they put you to sleep and stop you having to feel.
Feel not so much as empathy goes but have to feel bad about oneself.

That's why both are means of escape.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 4:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jackie wrote:
zorba wrote:
JESTER: Cocaine is the sort of drug that people want several times through the night. It's an intense high that makes time go fast and the higher they get, the more they want. The entire night becomes a blur and some things remain a blur. The following couple of days are also a blur. This is exactly what we have seen in Knox. She has patches of memories from the night of the murder, and she is so confused in the following days that she can't keep her lies straight. When questioned by police, she answered with what she thought they wanted to hear, not what she should have been able to figure out. When she described the best imaginings she can remember, or whatever it is she was saying, she is probably describing fragmented memories from a night of serious drug use ... and it wasn't hashish.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Agree with this possible explanation too.
And on the coke, yeah, I've been in houses where they were truly into it, and I want, it was like they wanted me to be in it too, so when given a line and I didn't take it, I did not actually make eye contact with them but I felt exactly what was going ion as I wasn't born yesterday, the longer that unused line remained on the CD case (substitute mirror) the more uptight it made them, I didn't give a shit but they did, they wanted me to use it or they wanted it themselves. I hated the whole lot of it knowing full well how these people were through the coke....


Hi Jester and Zorba - I've never tried cocaine so I've got some dumb questions: If someone's a bit of a light weight with alcohol (video of Knox sloppy-drunk but claiming to have only had 1 and 1/2 shots), are they more likely to be the sort that has trouble handling the high from cocaine? Have you ever seen a first-timer react poorly?



Just to add to what others have said...I don't think there's a correlation between low alcohol tolerance and low cocaine tolerance. Different people are more susceptible to different drugs, which is why they tend to end up with their 'drug of choice'. In terms of those two particular drugs, they are completely different, as one is a depressant (alcohol) and the other is a stimulant (cocaine). People may have a very low tolerance for one, but a high tolerance for the other.

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 4:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jester wrote:
Those Knox supporters sure are a funny crowd. They are so very desperate to discredit people. First they attacked the prosecutor. That didn't work. Then it was the police, then the forensics, then the lawyers and they don't stop there. Next they attack the people they are debating the case with. They want to turn those debating the case into a battle of the experts where they claim that someone arguing the point that Knox is unjustly convicted has more credentials than someone arguing the point that Knox is justifiably convicted. They are in fact a bit of a scary crowd because they seem to want any personal information they can get on those debating the case.


Happened to me twice :)

Years ago I irked some reactionary elements on a political forum so next thing I knew, some right-wing website Googled and published my real name and city (which always was available, no biggie) so when the JREF'ers did same, it was deja vu all over again.

They can't attack the argument, so they attack the person.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 4:38 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Just going back to Oggi again and the defence recently publishing the guff about Meredith's top...it seems clear that this is a standard defence practice. They did the same thing near the end of the main trial. They rushed out a piece in it with Torre and the footprints and stain on the pillow. Now they are doing the same again, this time using Meredith's top. Their stunt didn't help them in the main trial, I don't see why the same type of stunt should suddenly help them in the appeal.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 4:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jester wrote:
Those Knox supporters sure are a funny crowd. They are so very desperate to discredit people. First they attacked the prosecutor. That didn't work. Then it was the police, then the forensics, then the lawyers and they don't stop there. Next they attack the people they are debating the case with. They want to turn those debating the case into a battle of the experts where they claim that someone arguing the point that Knox is unjustly convicted has more credentials than someone arguing the point that Knox is justifiably convicted. They are in fact a bit of a scary crowd because they seem to want any personal information they can get on those debating the case.



That's why I've always insisted on keeping my information private. As an Administrator of PMF, there was always a lot of pressure by some for me to come out in public, but I wasn't having any of it. Primarily, because of the vindictive nature of the FOAKers as you have described.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 4:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Ergon wrote:
Jester wrote:
Those Knox supporters sure are a funny crowd. They are so very desperate to discredit people. First they attacked the prosecutor. That didn't work. Then it was the police, then the forensics, then the lawyers and they don't stop there. Next they attack the people they are debating the case with. They want to turn those debating the case into a battle of the experts where they claim that someone arguing the point that Knox is unjustly convicted has more credentials than someone arguing the point that Knox is justifiably convicted. They are in fact a bit of a scary crowd because they seem to want any personal information they can get on those debating the case.


Happened to me twice :)

Years ago I irked some reactionary elements on a political forum so next thing I knew, some right-wing website Googled and published my real name and city (which always was available, no biggie) so when the JREF'ers did same, it was deja vu all over again.

They can't attack the argument, so they attack the person.


I suspect that some people know perfectly well who I am because of registering at a forum, but I trust that the information is kept confidential. I had someone on a political forum track me down one time and I found it scary ... that was a few years ago, but it was enough for me to completely distance myself from the forum. Online debating is one thing, but having a nutcase potentially arrive at your front door is not something I would want to deal with - and it does seem that some people following the Seattle woman's murder conviction are complete nutcases. I get the impression that they want to silence people that disagree with them.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 4:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
Jester wrote:
Those Knox supporters sure are a funny crowd. They are so very desperate to discredit people. First they attacked the prosecutor. That didn't work. Then it was the police, then the forensics, then the lawyers and they don't stop there. Next they attack the people they are debating the case with. They want to turn those debating the case into a battle of the experts where they claim that someone arguing the point that Knox is unjustly convicted has more credentials than someone arguing the point that Knox is justifiably convicted. They are in fact a bit of a scary crowd because they seem to want any personal information they can get on those debating the case.



That's why I've always insisted on keeping my information private. As an Administrator of PMF, there was always a lot of pressure by some for me to come out in public, but I wasn't having any of it. Primarily, because of the vindictive nature of the FOAKers as you have described.


Wise decision. From time to time it seems that some people decide to give their full names and personal information on a forum. It was done on the cloned site shortly after it was set up where a couple of people were introduced with their full information - which very much surprised me. For years I've told my son to be careful with what he says to strangers ... that we project ourselves and our perceptions onto others and assume that they are rational, normal people. It's simply not true. There are complete crazies walking around with the appearance of normal people and there is no way to predict how they will react in any given situation.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

I wonder if Guede and Sollecito have classical music concerts at their prisons and why we don't see those photos.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

It looks like Knox has sent a script to the band Hands of Time that will be made into a video. It appears that she made contact with them when they played in prison. The video is due out in Oct.

http://www.gqitalia.it/viral-news/artic ... video-clip
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jester wrote:
Michael wrote:
Jester wrote:
Those Knox supporters sure are a funny crowd. They are so very desperate to discredit people. First they attacked the prosecutor. That didn't work. Then it was the police, then the forensics, then the lawyers and they don't stop there. Next they attack the people they are debating the case with. They want to turn those debating the case into a battle of the experts where they claim that someone arguing the point that Knox is unjustly convicted has more credentials than someone arguing the point that Knox is justifiably convicted. They are in fact a bit of a scary crowd because they seem to want any personal information they can get on those debating the case.



That's why I've always insisted on keeping my information private. As an Administrator of PMF, there was always a lot of pressure by some for me to come out in public, but I wasn't having any of it. Primarily, because of the vindictive nature of the FOAKers as you have described.


Wise decision. From time to time it seems that some people decide to give their full names and personal information on a forum. It was done on the cloned site shortly after it was set up where a couple of people were introduced with their full information - which very much surprised me. For years I've told my son to be careful with what he says to strangers ... that we project ourselves and our perceptions onto others and assume that they are rational, normal people. It's simply not true. There are complete crazies walking around with the appearance of normal people and there is no way to predict how they will react in any given situation.



I'm very surprised at that. Since, as an Administrator I've always had a policy 'here' that if someone posts confidential information about themselves, to erase it and contact them to ask them to reconsider doing that, for their own security. I'm actually very dodgy about letting people post even their personal emails on the board. It really is a security risk and a site has an obligation to look after the security of its members. I'm surprised nobody is continuing that tradition of responsibility on the Clone.


There are exceptions, if for example the person in question is already in the public eye or consciously wishes to become public in the debate....or if, they are publishing specially created email addys which are designed for use solely in this case. But in general, a Mod should step in, since many either don't realise or they haven't considered, the potential consequences of publishing their private information. That said, my job is generally quite easy since for the most part, PMF membership consists of more mature members, those of the generations grew up when the concept of 'privacy' was a fiercely held ideal. It's much more difficult on sites with a younger membership who have grown up in the 'Facebook Age' where privacy isn't even a consideration and people are willing to post their whole identities and lives online. As a very private person myself, the whole concept makes me wince. When posted on the web it stays on the web. And for a close to home example, one only has to look at Knox and the consequences of her Myspace page...her family and supporters have been trying to fight the 'Foxy Knoxy' tag ever since. But the fact is, it's all self inflicted as knox gave no thought to privacy, just as many millions of others these days do not.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jester wrote:
I wonder if Guede and Sollecito have classical music concerts at their prisons and why we don't see those photos.



Because they aren't classed as 'hotties'. Most of the media infatuation with Knox is down to sex. Sex sells.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jester wrote:
I wonder if Guede and Sollecito have classical music concerts at their prisons and why we don't see those photos.



Hi Jester, I will try to get back to the points you made.
As I'm no expert on the various chemicals that may or may not affect a person, I can't easily state an opinion. The videos I haven't studied them entirely, yet. I will though, as others have already mentioned bits that I hadn't stopped at yet.

That about the gene meaning it would just excuse a person - I do not think that this is what they are trying to get at, I think they are studying the things, not as a way to provide an excuse for killers, but instead and on the contrary, in order to find facts out to try to prevent having people running around when they are capable of killing, therefore the idea being that in finding out why certain people do things, they might be able to prevent it and be aware of it in future, like they found out about the high-fliers the boss types all sharing certain elements/characteristics/traits, ones that are also seen in psychopaths.

Where in general, people experience those in society, the high-fliers as people to be looked up to, where they go unnoticed as having particular traits that are not necessarily healthy ones at all. That bit corresponds to the psychopaths who are not what they seem and are then in ordinary life, seen as ordinary people, often even thought to be likeable people, found to be except the secrets they hold being, namely, that they just happen to kill people, on a serial level.

The psycho is not a person with a signboard around the neck foaming about the mouth, they go hidden in society and that's why many get away with it for so long.

The man who was found to have the gene his case setting a precedent in the States, where the gene meant he had no empathy, I don't know yet if it meant that he just ended up with a slap on the wrist, if it does that would be wrong in my view but wouldn't it mean/signify instead, that knowing he has a gene that makes him not give a shit, they are then trying to separate the ones like him who are ill, in any way, from the ones who do know exactly what they are doing, may care but do it anyway for various reasons.

I really wonder about Knox as she fails to care not only for Meredith and Meredith's family, but also for her own family, young sisters; it seems, as long as she can get away with it.

Maybe she does care about her family but is too greedy to face up to what she did, pay the price and release her family from the prison she has placed them in as a result of her deeds.

Considering how far she is prepared to let it all go though, one would need to examine whether she indeed just does not care a shit about her family and therefore is unable to feel empathy.

All indications are that she does not care about ANYONE, except herself.
It may, though, in her case, be pure greed; unwillingness to spend the years in prison no matter what it costs others. That bit seems to correspond to her having been capable of murder in the first place, the lack of empathy not being limited to a single day, a single event, but permeating everything she is about and does.

So does Knox feel no empathy or is she simply a greedy, nasty person who just does not care, a super narcissist?

As she seems to break out in tears, it makes me think that somewhere she does have feelings, a typical sign of the person unable to feel any empathy at all, like with the psychopaths is that they feel nothing and do not shed tears.. for anyone.

_________________
Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
Ignorance of the law is no excuse


Last edited by zorba on Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jester wrote:
Ergon wrote:
Jester wrote:
Those Knox supporters sure are a funny crowd. They are so very desperate to discredit people. First they attacked the prosecutor. That didn't work. Then it was the police, then the forensics, then the lawyers and they don't stop there. Next they attack the people they are debating the case with. They want to turn those debating the case into a battle of the experts where they claim that someone arguing the point that Knox is unjustly convicted has more credentials than someone arguing the point that Knox is justifiably convicted. They are in fact a bit of a scary crowd because they seem to want any personal information they can get on those debating the case.


Happened to me twice :)

Years ago I irked some reactionary elements on a political forum so next thing I knew, some right-wing website Googled and published my real name and city (which always was available, no biggie) so when the JREF'ers did same, it was deja vu all over again.

They can't attack the argument, so they attack the person.


I suspect that some people know perfectly well who I am because of registering at a forum, but I trust that the information is kept confidential. I had someone on a political forum track me down one time and I found it scary ... that was a few years ago, but it was enough for me to completely distance myself from the forum. Online debating is one thing, but having a nutcase potentially arrive at your front door is not something I would want to deal with - and it does seem that some people following the Seattle woman's murder conviction are complete nutcases. I get the impression that they want to silence people that disagree with them.



You just have to look to what happened to SB. She had someone posting that they were standing behind her in her local supermarket and were so close to her, they knew what she smells like. They claimed they followed her home and knew where she lives. When she went abroad, she used to ask me to not mention it on the board because she was afraid they may go around her house while she was away and do something evil to her animals.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
Jester wrote:
Michael wrote:
Jester wrote:
Those Knox supporters sure are a funny crowd. They are so very desperate to discredit people. First they attacked the prosecutor. That didn't work. Then it was the police, then the forensics, then the lawyers and they don't stop there. Next they attack the people they are debating the case with. They want to turn those debating the case into a battle of the experts where they claim that someone arguing the point that Knox is unjustly convicted has more credentials than someone arguing the point that Knox is justifiably convicted. They are in fact a bit of a scary crowd because they seem to want any personal information they can get on those debating the case.



That's why I've always insisted on keeping my information private. As an Administrator of PMF, there was always a lot of pressure by some for me to come out in public, but I wasn't having any of it. Primarily, because of the vindictive nature of the FOAKers as you have described.


Wise decision. From time to time it seems that some people decide to give their full names and personal information on a forum. It was done on the cloned site shortly after it was set up where a couple of people were introduced with their full information - which very much surprised me. For years I've told my son to be careful with what he says to strangers ... that we project ourselves and our perceptions onto others and assume that they are rational, normal people. It's simply not true. There are complete crazies walking around with the appearance of normal people and there is no way to predict how they will react in any given situation.



I'm very surprised at that. Since, as an Administrator I've always had a policy 'here' that if someone posts confidential information about themselves, to erase it and contact them to ask them to reconsider doing that, for their own security. I'm actually very dodgy about letting people post even their personal emails on the board. It really is a security risk and a site has an obligation to look after the security of its members. I'm surprised nobody is continuing that tradition of responsibility on the Clone.


There are exceptions, if for example the person in question is already in the public eye or consciously wishes to become public in the debate....or if, they are publishing specially created email addys which are designed for use solely in this case. But in general, a Mod should step in, since many either don't realise or they haven't considered, the potential consequences of publishing their private information. That said, my job is generally quite easy since for the most part, PMF membership consists of more mature members, those of the generations grew up when the concept of 'privacy' was a fiercely held ideal. It's much more difficult on sites with a younger membership who have grown up in the 'Facebook Age' where privacy isn't even a consideration and people are willing to post their whole identities and lives online. As a very private person myself, the whole concept makes me wince. When posted on the web it stays on the web. And for a close to home example, one only has to look at Knox and the consequences of her Myspace page...her family and supporters have been trying to fight the 'Foxy Knoxy' tag ever since. But the fact is, it's all self inflicted as knox gave no thought to privacy, just as many millions of others these days do not.


It was actually moderators at the cloned site that revealed exactly who they were and where they worked. I think it was intended to give the impression of having some sort of credibility.
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Offline Jester


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Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:24 pm

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

zorba wrote:
Jester wrote:
I wonder if Guede and Sollecito have classical music concerts at their prisons and why we don't see those photos.



Hi Jester, I will try to get back to the points you made.
As I'm no expert on the various chemicals that may or may not affect a person, I can't easily state an opinion. The videos I haven't studied them entirely, yet. I will though, as others have already mentioned bits that I hadn't stopped at yet.

That about the gene meaning it would just excuse a person - I do not think that this is what they are trying to get at, I think they are studying the things, not as a way to provide an excuse for killers, but instead and on the contrary, in order to find facts out to try to prevent having people running around when they are capable of killing, therefore the idea being that in finding out why certain people do things, they might be able to prevent it and be aware of it in future, like they found out about the high-fliers the boss types all sharing certain elements/characteristics/traits, ones that are also seen in psychopaths.

Where in general, people experience those in society, the high-fliers as people to be looked up to, where they go unnoticed as having particular traits that are not necessarily healthy ones at all. That bit corresponds to the psychopaths who are not what they seem and are then in ordinary life, seen as ordinary people, often even thought to be likeable people, found to be except the secrets they hold being, namely, that they just happen to kill people, on a serial level.

The psycho is not a person with a signboard around the neck foaming about the mouth, they go hidden in society and that's why many get away with it for so long.

The man who was found to have the gene his case setting a precedent in the States, where the gene meant he had no empathy, I don't know yet if it meant that he just ended up with a slap on the wrist, if it does that would be wrong in my view but wouldn't it mean/signify instead, that knowing he has a gene that makes him not give a shit, they are then trying to separate the ones like him who are ill, in any way, from the ones who do know exactly what they are doing, may care but do it anyway for various reasons.

I really wonder about Knox as she fails to care not only for Meredith and Meredith's family, but also for her own family, young sisters; it seems, as long as she can get away with it.

Maybe she does care about her family but is too greedy to face up to what she did, pay the price and release her family from the prison she has placed them in as a result of her deeds.

Considering how far she is prepared to let it all go though, one would need to examine whether she indeed just does not care a shit about her family and therefore is unable to feel empathy.

All indications are that she does not care about ANYONE, except herself.
It may, though, in her case, be pure greed; unwillingness to spend the years in prison no matter what it costs others. That bit seems to correspond to her having been capable of murder in the first place, the lack of empathy not being limited to a single day, a single event, but permeating everything she is about and does.

So does Knox feel no empathy or is she simply a greedy, nasty person who just does not care, a super narcissist?

As she seems to break out in tears, it makes me think that somewhere she does have feelings, a typical sign of the person unable to feel any empathy at all, like with the psychopaths is that they feel nothing and do not shed tears.. for anyone.


People with no empathy always have tears for themselves. They feel something when there are consequences for themselves, just not for anyone else. It's probably still a learned response where they know they should have some tears in certain situations.
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