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XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 - SEPT 22, 11

Moderators: Nell, Ergon, Michael, Moderators


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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jester wrote:
Michael wrote:
Jester wrote:
Michael wrote:
Jester wrote:
Those Knox supporters sure are a funny crowd. They are so very desperate to discredit people. First they attacked the prosecutor. That didn't work. Then it was the police, then the forensics, then the lawyers and they don't stop there. Next they attack the people they are debating the case with. They want to turn those debating the case into a battle of the experts where they claim that someone arguing the point that Knox is unjustly convicted has more credentials than someone arguing the point that Knox is justifiably convicted. They are in fact a bit of a scary crowd because they seem to want any personal information they can get on those debating the case.



That's why I've always insisted on keeping my information private. As an Administrator of PMF, there was always a lot of pressure by some for me to come out in public, but I wasn't having any of it. Primarily, because of the vindictive nature of the FOAKers as you have described.


Wise decision. From time to time it seems that some people decide to give their full names and personal information on a forum. It was done on the cloned site shortly after it was set up where a couple of people were introduced with their full information - which very much surprised me. For years I've told my son to be careful with what he says to strangers ... that we project ourselves and our perceptions onto others and assume that they are rational, normal people. It's simply not true. There are complete crazies walking around with the appearance of normal people and there is no way to predict how they will react in any given situation.



I'm very surprised at that. Since, as an Administrator I've always had a policy 'here' that if someone posts confidential information about themselves, to erase it and contact them to ask them to reconsider doing that, for their own security. I'm actually very dodgy about letting people post even their personal emails on the board. It really is a security risk and a site has an obligation to look after the security of its members. I'm surprised nobody is continuing that tradition of responsibility on the Clone.


There are exceptions, if for example the person in question is already in the public eye or consciously wishes to become public in the debate....or if, they are publishing specially created email addys which are designed for use solely in this case. But in general, a Mod should step in, since many either don't realise or they haven't considered, the potential consequences of publishing their private information. That said, my job is generally quite easy since for the most part, PMF membership consists of more mature members, those of the generations grew up when the concept of 'privacy' was a fiercely held ideal. It's much more difficult on sites with a younger membership who have grown up in the 'Facebook Age' where privacy isn't even a consideration and people are willing to post their whole identities and lives online. As a very private person myself, the whole concept makes me wince. When posted on the web it stays on the web. And for a close to home example, one only has to look at Knox and the consequences of her Myspace page...her family and supporters have been trying to fight the 'Foxy Knoxy' tag ever since. But the fact is, it's all self inflicted as Knox gave no thought to privacy, just as many millions of others these days do not.


It was actually moderators at the cloned site that revealed exactly who they were and where they worked. I think it was intended to give the impression of having some sort of credibility.



Yes Skeptikal Bystander helped Frank Sfarzo by correcting his English, for his blog. In fact, she was very naive, as me, for instance, I saw immediately that Frank was not okay, I mean who the fuck in the world would put a poll up asking Do You Think Meredith Was A Nice Person?
I could have shot him on the spot for saying that, the nasty little worm. How dare he.
His general tone with the rest was also entirely obnoxious and he was simply a Mr know-it-all and as arrogant as hell.
After that I knew he was a cnut. And those who did not get that, in my book, were simply thick.

It was only much later that it emerged that she had been helping him, as nobody knew her as Peggy (or Margaret) Ganong, but he had published her name, each time, acknowledging her for helping him with his language.
Only much later did she stop helping him, she had been helping him for months, without people knowing, when they realised, or when many people realised what she had been doing, many thought much less of her, including me.
This because it was obvious that Frank was not okay.
So it is not as if much work needed to be done in order to find out her details, she provided them to Sfarzo.
A very stupid thing to do.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jester wrote:
zorba wrote:
Jester wrote:
I wonder if Guede and Sollecito have classical music concerts at their prisons and why we don't see those photos.



Hi Jester, I will try to get back to the points you made.
As I'm no expert on the various chemicals that may or may not affect a person, I can't easily state an opinion. The videos I haven't studied them entirely, yet. I will though, as others have already mentioned bits that I hadn't stopped at yet.

That about the gene meaning it would just excuse a person - I do not think that this is what they are trying to get at, I think they are studying the things, not as a way to provide an excuse for killers, but instead and on the contrary, in order to find facts out to try to prevent having people running around when they are capable of killing, therefore the idea being that in finding out why certain people do things, they might be able to prevent it and be aware of it in future, like they found out about the high-fliers the boss types all sharing certain elements/characteristics/traits, ones that are also seen in psychopaths.

Where in general, people experience those in society, the high-fliers as people to be looked up to, where they go unnoticed as having particular traits that are not necessarily healthy ones at all. That bit corresponds to the psychopaths who are not what they seem and are then in ordinary life, seen as ordinary people, often even thought to be likeable people, found to be except the secrets they hold being, namely, that they just happen to kill people, on a serial level.

The psycho is not a person with a signboard around the neck foaming about the mouth, they go hidden in society and that's why many get away with it for so long.

The man who was found to have the gene his case setting a precedent in the States, where the gene meant he had no empathy, I don't know yet if it meant that he just ended up with a slap on the wrist, if it does that would be wrong in my view but wouldn't it mean/signify instead, that knowing he has a gene that makes him not give a shit, they are then trying to separate the ones like him who are ill, in any way, from the ones who do know exactly what they are doing, may care but do it anyway for various reasons.

I really wonder about Knox as she fails to care not only for Meredith and Meredith's family, but also for her own family, young sisters; it seems, as long as she can get away with it.

Maybe she does care about her family but is too greedy to face up to what she did, pay the price and release her family from the prison she has placed them in as a result of her deeds.

Considering how far she is prepared to let it all go though, one would need to examine whether she indeed just does not care a shit about her family and therefore is unable to feel empathy.

All indications are that she does not care about ANYONE, except herself.
It may, though, in her case, be pure greed; unwillingness to spend the years in prison no matter what it costs others. That bit seems to correspond to her having been capable of murder in the first place, the lack of empathy not being limited to a single day, a single event, but permeating everything she is about and does.

So does Knox feel no empathy or is she simply a greedy, nasty person who just does not care, a super narcissist?

As she seems to break out in tears, it makes me think that somewhere she does have feelings, a typical sign of the person unable to feel any empathy at all, like with the psychopaths is that they feel nothing and do not shed tears.. for anyone.


People with no empathy always have tears for themselves. They feel something when there are consequences for themselves, just not for anyone else. It's probably still a learned response where they know they should have some tears in certain situations.



Right so she can turn the crododile tap on with tears for HERSELF!!!

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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 7:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

zorba wrote:
Jester wrote:
Michael wrote:
I'm very surprised at that. Since, as an Administrator I've always had a policy 'here' that if someone posts confidential information about themselves, to erase it and contact them to ask them to reconsider doing that, for their own security. I'm actually very dodgy about letting people post even their personal emails on the board. It really is a security risk and a site has an obligation to look after the security of its members. I'm surprised nobody is continuing that tradition of responsibility on the Clone.


There are exceptions, if for example the person in question is already in the public eye or consciously wishes to become public in the debate....or if, they are publishing specially created email addys which are designed for use solely in this case. But in general, a Mod should step in, since many either don't realise or they haven't considered, the potential consequences of publishing their private information. That said, my job is generally quite easy since for the most part, PMF membership consists of more mature members, those of the generations grew up when the concept of 'privacy' was a fiercely held ideal. It's much more difficult on sites with a younger membership who have grown up in the 'Facebook Age' where privacy isn't even a consideration and people are willing to post their whole identities and lives online. As a very private person myself, the whole concept makes me wince. When posted on the web it stays on the web. And for a close to home example, one only has to look at Knox and the consequences of her Myspace page...her family and supporters have been trying to fight the 'Foxy Knoxy' tag ever since. But the fact is, it's all self inflicted as Knox gave no thought to privacy, just as many millions of others these days do not.


It was actually moderators at the cloned site that revealed exactly who they were and where they worked. I think it was intended to give the impression of having some sort of credibility.



Yes Skeptikal Bystander helped Frank Sfarzo by correcting his English, for his blog. In fact, she was very naive, as me, for instance, I saw immediately that Frank was not okay, I mean who the fuck in the world would put a poll up asking Do You Think Meredith Was A Nice Person?
I could have shot him on the spot for saying that, the nasty little worm. How dare he.
His general tone with the rest was also entirely obnoxious and he was simply a Mr know-it-all and as arrogant as hell.
After that I knew he was a cnut. And those who did not get that, in my book, were simply thick.

It was only much later that it emerged that she had been helping him, as nobody knew her as Peggy (or Margaret) Ganong, but he had published her name, each time, acknowledging her for helping him with his language.
Only much later did she stop helping him, she had been helping him for months, without people knowing, when they realised, or when many people realised what she had been doing, many thought much less of her, including me.
This because it was obvious that Frank was not okay.
So it is not as if much work needed to be done in order to find out her details, she provided them to Sfarzo.
A very stupid thing to do.


In addition to that "outting", I was also thinking about one of the people that became a moderator when the clone split. He was introduced with his real name and profession - I think he's a professor in Seattle ... something like that. I can't be bothered to look for the post, but I thought it was too much information for a forum. Being a professor isn't really a big deal. All it means it that someone spent an awful lot of time in the books and that they are now teaching that information to others. Speaking of professions, some of the Knox groupies are really hung up on the whether someone is a scientist. I have a realy strong suspicion most of them have never taken any post-sec. courses in any science, yet they are so eager to claim that others cannot be scientists - like trying to reduce Dr Stefanoni to Mrs Nobody with no real accomplishments. What the heck is a scientist anyway? If someone has one or even a couple of degrees from the faculty of science, does that make them a scientist? It's such a bizarre and general label ... it reminds me of that guy that did a 2 year mechanical engineering technologist diploma and then everyone was raving about him being a mechanical engineer that specialized in accidents, so now he was an expert in rocks through windows. There's such a huge different between a professional engineer and an engineering technologist, but so many don't seem to know the difference - so they pretend that it is the same thing. Today we have sanitation engineers and computer architects - scientist is equally meaningless.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 8:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Ahhh...in his case, his identity was out there already. He'd already gone on interview in publications where his real name, his forum handle, where he posts and his job description had already been published...years ago in fact. So, in that sense, it was a faux 'coming out', as he came out a very long time ago. And that was for the benefit of forum members as much as for outsiders since he was replacing 'me' and where simply mentioning my name would result in deletion, so that was to aid the swallowing of the pill. That said, I've known and worked with him (on the case) for years and he's a capitol chap, is one of the old guard (from our Haloscan days) and should make an excellent Moderator. He's a more than worthy replacement. He also fulfills SB's desire to have a partner willing to go on record under their full identity, which I wasn't willing to do. He has my affection and I wish him the best of luck in his new role.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

The other thing, which has nothing to do with the case...or even the site much, is my mother has been prowling about. Whilst interested in the case, she's been very shy in posting about it. I've no problem with that...but she HAS been stealing my trophys. That will not stand, even if she is my mother. And yes mum, I jhdf you.

And I will also look after the cats when you go away...even though it is during the week of closing arguments and verdict. Perhaps Kate could do them in the evenings and I could do the mornings...or vice versa? If I don't get a postcard, I'll be miffed. I'm miffed already because your cats are so bright they can feed themselves...I caught one of them tossing a steak on the barbecue just the other day. I know you don't believe me, but one day you'll catch them doing it and then you will. Anyway, I'll drop by soon (before you go away) and we'll work out how the moggies need to be pampered.

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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Just wanted to say hello and chime in on the discussion of changes made to the cloned website. If you've noticed, there is also a strange footer at the bottom of some posts, the one that says: "You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post. Please register or log in."

As a result, we (and other guests) not only can't see ANY pictures posted on their board but also cannot use some links! Is this new measure also aimed at reducing the server load, as in the case of the search function, or at forcing more people to register? Just wondering.

Apart from the fact that such restrictions go against the spirit of the old board, they are really unhelpful for those looking at the forum from the outside. The website visitors won't probably enjoy it either. I do a lot of skimming for translations and other information, sometimes don't read the details, but not being able to follow the links is frustrating. One recent example: yesterday H9 posted a link to the German talk show video but the link didn't show up in her post, so I had to go and do my own search for the link.

I know that some of our members visit the twin board regularly, so don't want to hurt anyone's feelings by making an issue out of it, but I still have to ask: has it become a closed society ("Members only"), a walled city with sentries at the gates? I find it strange.

Attachment:
Walled City-1.jpg


By the way, I have a couple of suggestions for a new PMF clone website name. Not sure if everyone would appreciate that, so I better keep it to myself. ;) :)


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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael, Your Mum is adorable!! Go, Mum!! Oh, and help yourself to as many trophies as you like...I'm sure Michael secretly is proud :)

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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

guermantes wrote:
Just wanted to say hello and chime in on the discussion of changes made to the cloned website. If you've noticed, there is also a strange footer at the bottom of some posts, the one that says: "You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post. Please register or log in."

As a result, we (and other guests) not only can't see ANY pictures posted on their board but also cannot use some links! Is this new measure also aimed at reducing the server load, as in the case of the search function, or at forcing more people to register? Just wondering.

Apart from the fact that such restrictions go against the spirit of the old board, they are really unhelpful for those looking at the forum from the outside. The website visitors won't probably enjoy it either. I do a lot of skimming for translations and other information, sometimes don't read the details, but not being able to follow the links is frustrating. One recent example: yesterday H9 posted a link to the German talk show video but the link didn't show up in her post, so I had to go and do my own search for the link.

I know that some of our members visit the twin board regularly, so don't want to hurt anyone's feelings by making an issue out of it, but I still have to ask: has it become a closed society ("Members only"), a walled city with sentries at the gates? I find it strange.

Attachment:
Walled City-1.jpg


By the way, I have a couple of suggestions for a new PMF clone website name. Not sure if everyone would appreciate that, so I better keep it to myself. ;) :)


I noticed that too ... have to log in to see all the graphics and so on.

And Michael ... your comment made me smile.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:29 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

jester wrote:
I noticed that too ... have to log in to see all the graphics and so on.



I guess they've developed different priorities...not that I know what they are or why they are.

Meanwhile, the original PMF retains the original open source principles on which it was built. Free and open access to all. That's carved in stone and will never change...not on my watch.

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:48 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:

You just have to look to what happened to SB. She had someone posting that they were standing behind her in her local supermarket and were so close to her, they knew what she smells like. They claimed they followed her home and knew where she lives. When she went abroad, she used to ask me to not mention it on the board because she was afraid they may go around her house while she was away and do something evil to her animals.


I suspect it was intentional, and designed to intimidate any discussion of guilt. I doubt the person actually did follow SB. Most Internet 'warriors' are cowards and prefer to make threats from behind the safety of their keyboards..

But, there always is some crazy who could get tipped over by the rhetoric of idiots; witness the Norwegian sniper Brevik and the looney that shot Congresswoman Giffords.

I hope such never happens to one of us, but if so, I will hold Chris Mellas and Bruce Fischer responsible. They're deliberately inciting some very unstable people.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:02 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
jester wrote:
I noticed that too ... have to log in to see all the graphics and so on.



I guess they've developed different priorities...not that I know what they are or why they are.

Meanwhile, the original PMF retains the original open source principles on which it was built. Free and open access to all. That's carved in stone and will never change...not on my watch.


Thanks Michael. A shout-out to anyone who wants to search the board: an-)) DON'T BE SHY AND COME OVER!
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:22 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Confident and optimistic, Amanda Knox waits to hear the final verdict

The best friend of Amanda Knox says she has been transformed by prison, and is now waiting for the acquittal she and her family expect.

Tom Kington
Sunday, 18 September 2011

THE GUARDIAN
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:33 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Amanda Knox writes video script for band
Published: Sept. 17, 2011 at 3:21 PM

UPI

Quote:
PERUGIA, Italy, Sept. 17 (UPI) -- U.S. student Amanda Knox, convicted in Italy for the murder of her British roommate, has written a music video script for a band based near her prison.

Amanda Knox has "always had a passion for music and poetry" said the band, Hands of Time, ANSA reported Friday.

Knox reportedly sent the script in English and Italian to the band via mail. Hands of Time said the script showed "considerable artistic quality" and decided to use it for their song "The Mistral Blows."

Etc
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Offline stint7


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:49 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

guermantes wrote:
Confident and optimistic, Amanda Knox waits to hear the final verdict

The best friend of Amanda Knox says she has been transformed by prison, and is now waiting for the acquittal she and her family expect.

Tom Kington
Sunday, 18 September 2011

THE GUARDIAN


Interesting article.
This quote was particularly interesting since Brucie and his the Looney Loudmouths have been saying "Its Over" ever since the C&V report was leaked months ago.

Mignini claims he is "satisfied" with the disputed forensic work, finds the triumphalism of the Knox camp "questionable", and also has a new legal argument up his sleeve. "The legal code states that any review of evidence must be requested immediately, not two years later." If the couple are acquitted, he added, the verdict could yet be annulled if Italy's high court decides the recent DNA review was illegal.

Sounds like a pretty good argument that may well take the case to Cassation if in fact Judge Hellmann's "ill wind" blows an acquittal.

A long way from Brucie's simpleton sing song... "Its Over"

Also nice touch about MadPax now hugging the Guards at Capanne while visiting her BFF


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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:53 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

another truly crap piece, fuck Kington, he's another one of these Brits (who ought to be thoroughly ashamed of themselves), living in Italy, married to an Italian, a man who writes with as much substance as a mushy pea, his writing just like a piece in Hello Magazine about some twat of a cook.
Why if this man is so very concerned doesn't he look into things properly, yet again, a total lot of crap written, all FOA-like.

Those descriptions, like; sits across on a bare table... duh...

well man what the fuck did you expect, a penthouse suite with jacuzzi and Knox offering her big pal champange?

He's so useless, his dad is famous, and he entered the same trade and is useless at it, and is not about to become famous with that, not famous like dear old dad.

His stuff is even worse than Pisa's, but is equal to Popham's nonsense.

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Last edited by zorba on Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:58 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

yes the bit about guards hugging her, that type of thing is not allowed, it is a lie, next thing they'll be saying that the judge was giving Knox kisses and cuddles.

Yes, duh, it was hard, duh, because they all thought she was guilty but now duh duh duh

This game they are playing is not going to work but they are one evil bunch of bastards for trying such stuff.

She was guilty and is still guilty and will always be guilty.

As if, I mean as if the prison authorities made things difficult because they personally thought she was guilty, I mean, as fucking if; there are laws, and in no way has anyone been able to make things anything other than as dictated by law.

Fuck off Mellas and fuck off all of you lying, dirty, loathsome, cruel, devious, murderer-loving toerags for insulting people's intellects with this nonsense, it is not going to have any effect. You are sick people.

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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:32 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

What a strange comment in that article:

"The vitriol is also flowing online as contributors to a site calling for Knox's acquittal accuse the organiser of a pro-guilt site of harassing women. That site, in turn, claims it is fighting lies put out by "the Knox family PR supertanker".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/se ... ts-verdict

What organizer of a pro-guilt site is harassing women?
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:59 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jester wrote:
What a strange comment in that article:

"The vitriol is also flowing online as contributors to a site calling for Knox's acquittal accuse the organiser of a pro-guilt site of harassing women. That site, in turn, claims it is fighting lies put out by "the Knox family PR supertanker".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/se ... ts-verdict

What organizer of a pro-guilt site is harassing women?




He's referring to Peter Quennell and TJMK. Only it's not a 'pro-guilt' site, it's a pro-Meredith Kercher site.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:00 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Thanks. It seems to me that only people with an agenda to see Knox released from prison refer to those standing behind the verdict as "guilters".
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:11 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Will Italy's Misguided Persecution of Amanda Knox Finally End?
by S. Michael Scadron September 17, 2011


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THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:32 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Will Amanda Knox be freed this week?
Nearly four years after the murder of Meredith Kercher, Amanda Knox and her ex-lover are within days of finding out whether they will spend the next two decades in jail or their liberty restored, writes Nick Squires.

By Nick Squires, Rome
7:00AM BST 18 Sep 2011


DAILY TELEGRAPH

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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:00 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Within days? Freed this week? That's not going to happen. Is this going to be announced play by play like World Soccer - lots of build up and speculation?
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:02 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

They certainly are treating it like a spectator sport, aren't they?

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:07 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

According to Squires in his Telegraph article (which incidentally repeats some of the myths...Knox was interrogated all night etc), he states that if Knox is acquitted the prosecution will appeal. But he also seems to think that in that event, they'll let her fly off back to America while that happens.

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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:18 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
According to Squires in his Telegraph article (which incidentally repeats some of the myths...Knox was interrogated all night etc), he states that if Knox is acquitted the prosecution will appeal. But he also seems to think that in that event, they'll let her fly off back to America while that happens.


I've been curious about that. If the court overturns the verdict and the prosecution lodges an immediate objection, would she be released - given the potential flight risk? Normally people are not free to leave the country when their murder conviction is being appealed. One of the reasons Knox was held in jail before tiral is because of the potential flight risk. I would expect that the law includes a clause about murder suspects not leaving the country. Until the appeals are finished, she is implicated in the murder. With Chris and Paxton in Perugia maybe she would be released to the community, but if I were a judge I wouldn't take their word in vouching for Knox to be available for future court hearings.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:55 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Well, the prosecution wouldn't be able to appeal for at least 90 days, until the Motivations Report is published. I don't know what mechanism they could possibly use to request she is compelled to stay in the country during that time when (in this scenario) the court has acquitted her and no appeal is pending. She would to all intents and purposes, be a completely free woman. It would be different if they could file their appeal immediately, but they can't.

The only way around it for the prosecution I can see, is if they file a request that she be compelled to remain in Italy in order to face her upcoming calunnia trial. In that event, by the time that trial arrives the prosecution appeal for the murder would have been filed. She has after all, been judged a flight risk by multiple judges and that judgment remains even if she's acquitted of the murder. When someone is judged to be a flight risk, it isn't simply that they have been judged to be likely to run away...but also to be unlikely to ever return. The prosecution would be able to effectively argue, that if she is permitted to leave the country then it is highly likely that she will never return to face her calunnia trial. This may explain Knox's recent attempts to tackle her accusation of Patrick.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 11:11 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

guermantes wrote:
Confident and optimistic, Amanda Knox waits to hear the final verdict

The best friend of Amanda Knox says she has been transformed by prison, and is now waiting for the acquittal she and her family expect.

Tom Kington
Sunday, 18 September 2011

THE GUARDIAN



That's also a pretty strange quote from Madison:
"But Amanda has had four years to really reflect on who she is, a time no one else gets. Her character is really honed and she is more confident now than she ever was. It is strangely beautiful."
I suppose she wasn't aware of how cynical that can sound.

On another note: Is Amanda somehow privileged in terms of prison visit time?
It seems to me that she's allowed a lot of visits: Madison once a week, Chris twice a week.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 11:42 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

[colorslide=]
Ava wrote:
guermantes wrote:
Confident and optimistic, Amanda Knox waits to hear the final verdict

The best friend of Amanda Knox says she has been transformed by prison, and is now waiting for the acquittal she and her family expect.

Tom Kington
Sunday, 18 September 2011

THE GUARDIAN



That's also a pretty strange quote from Madison:
"But Amanda has had four years to really reflect on who she is, a time no one else gets. Her character is really honed and she is more confident now than she ever was. It is strangely beautiful."
I suppose she wasn't aware of how cynical that can sound.

On another note: Is Amanda somehow privileged in terms of prison visit time?
It seems to me that she's allowed a lot of visits: Madison once a week, Chris twice a week.


MadPax impresses me overall as a very 'strange' individual.
Marriott exploits Maddie for their particular purposes of the minute.
And yes, in her unbiased eyes, everything about her BFF, Knox, is now, always has been, and will forever be ...."beautiful".
As well as any other "buzz word" adjectives Marriott tells her to say.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Meredith Kercher's jumper missed by police for six weeks
by Karen Rockett, Sunday Mirror 18/09/2011

SUNDAY MIRROR

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

stint7 wrote:
[colorslide=]
Ava wrote:
guermantes wrote:
Confident and optimistic, Amanda Knox waits to hear the final verdict

The best friend of Amanda Knox says she has been transformed by prison, and is now waiting for the acquittal she and her family expect.

Tom Kington
Sunday, 18 September 2011

THE GUARDIAN



That's also a pretty strange quote from Madison:
"But Amanda has had four years to really reflect on who she is, a time no one else gets. Her character is really honed and she is more confident now than she ever was. It is strangely beautiful."
I suppose she wasn't aware of how cynical that can sound.

On another note: Is Amanda somehow privileged in terms of prison visit time?
It seems to me that she's allowed a lot of visits: Madison once a week, Chris twice a week.


MadPax impresses me overall as a very 'strange' individual.
Marriott exploits Maddie for their particular purposes of the minute.
And yes, in her unbiased eyes, everything about her BFF, Knox, is now, always has been, and will forever be ...."beautiful".
As well as any other "buzz word" adjectives Marriott tells her to say.



As above so below: But Amanda has had four years to really reflect on who she is, a time no one else gets.


Then Knox is lucky judging by what Pax says. If she is so lucky, being part of an elite, having this opportunity to hone her whatever, then maybe, if Madison could see her way to perhaps committing a murder too, then she could join her Pied Pipery girlfriend in prison and be oh-so-very exclusive too.

What is that photo, is she sat over a sewage cover.

The woman is not quite right in her head if you ask me, for one reason, the lengths she is prepared to go, to twist things around, but in doing so, using such idiotic things, like the above and far more, and, the bit about it's such a sacrifice for her to have upped it out of Seattle, yeah, sunny sunshine Seattle, to go to rain-drenched Italy with its lousy food. It's so hard for the poor thing.

She sure is suffering.
Her cheerleading for Knox is about as convincing as the claps an obese child receives when finishing last on sports day!

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Hello Manders,

I could not visit you this week as my new boyfriend took me out truffle hunting, I hope you don't mind, it will give you extra time to hone your personality.

When he said; but isn't she in prison,

I said, why no, of course not,

she is on a learning mission, she is studying, and perfecting her personality,

I explained it's not everyone who is as lucky as you are to get given the opportunity to become so confident,

he said; are you sure,

I said sure I'm sure, people say she is in prison but they do not have the correct version,
I said they are remembering things wrong,

she isn't in prison,

she's having the time of her life, learning languages, writing songs and film scripts
and my how she liked those young men in that band,
they too, were so pleased that she liked them, I mean they get hundreds of bands a week going into Capanne Campus, and out of all of those bands, she liked them. It's beautiful, it's amazing, it's incredible, I exclaimed.

I told him that if she knew you she'd probably say she liked you too but as I'm her pal I could have you.

He said, no, no of course I wouldn't.

I said, why, she would, she's kind like that, she gave a tramp a bun one day and helped an old lady across the street.

I said to him; would you like to go with me as I have special privileges now that they all love her not like before but now they understand I've been getting bunches of flowers and kisses and cuddles off the guards at her special unit at the University of Capanne Campus, even from the women bodyguards, so, yeah, do ya want to go with me to visit her on Campus? You can you know, she'll like you she'll take time out from her busy film schedule and book-writing interviews.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

This article by Ted Thornhill and Nick Pisa deserves the "not-worth-reading" tag. Not really a prediction about anything, NOT very illuminating, rather confusing and even misleading.

THE DAILY MAIL

Both reporters are only too happy to regurgitate the same old tired and worn out faux news copied from articles penned by 'dim bulbs' working at Oggi. Tom Kington seems like a 'shining light' in comparison. :idea:


Last edited by guermantes on Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Ava wrote:
guermantes wrote:
Confident and optimistic, Amanda Knox waits to hear the final verdict

The best friend of Amanda Knox says she has been transformed by prison, and is now waiting for the acquittal she and her family expect.

Tom Kington
Sunday, 18 September 2011

THE GUARDIAN



That's also a pretty strange quote from Madison:
"But Amanda has had four years to really reflect on who she is, a time no one else gets. Her character is really honed and she is more confident now than she ever was. It is strangely beautiful."
I suppose she wasn't aware of how cynical that can sound.

On another note: Is Amanda somehow privileged in terms of prison visit time?
It seems to me that she's allowed a lot of visits: Madison once a week, Chris twice a week.


I'm a little curious about the friendship that Paxton has with Knox too. Has Paxton had a boyfriend? I'm assuming she has, and all, but has she? Her latest hairdo makes me wonder if she's trying to morph into Knox - with that unkempt prison look. I'm sure that Knox is more confident about beating the murder conviction at this time than she has been since prior to the guilty verdict, but how is that beautiful?

I simply cannot believe that after spending 4 years in jail, any prisoner can emerge with confidence. That is not a trait that society wants in convicted murderers. In fact, I suspect that prisoners have it instilled in them that they will listen and do as they're told; that they will not think, just do. I've seen the expression Knox has on her face when the guards talk to her and it isn't one of confidence, it's one of submission.

Oh look ... they're twins!

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

(( OT OT ))

Since it's the weekend, here some some clips of a very special and unique television series, made for Sky Television by British ex-pat Dr Lawrence Blair, who has explored and studied Indonesia and its marvels for 30 years. It contains some truly magical wonders, everything from shamen, strange phenomena (like the underwater circle of debris that transforms back to it's original shape if disturbed), amazing creatures...the biggest snakes in the world, some of the most venomous snakes in the world (as well as the meanest snake in the world...not only poisonous, but in having bitten you, it then chases after you and bites you again and again), 6 ft bats, miniature elephants that walk on walls, the mimic octopus, the world's most expensive (and apparently most delicious) coffee which comes out of a marsupial's bottom and many more wonderful things you've never heard of.

Myths, Magic and Monsters

This first clip is about the 'hobbits', an ancient race of humans that lived some 12 thousand years ago in Indonesia and were only 3 ft high and believed long extinct. The discovery is controversial as some scientists argue they are merely normal humans with skull deformities. Dr Blair reveals their decedents still survive today and takes us to one of their villages to meet the 4 ft tall residents:




The Mimic Octopus (Myths, Magic and Monsters)

A creature only catagorised in the 1990's, this little octopus survives by knowing what each of its predators' least favourite food is and then mimics it...it impersonates at least 16 different sea creatures:






6 ft Bats






Myths Magic And Monsters (Titles)



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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 11:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Thanks for vids Michael, couple of nice things in there and funny too, the little guy saying, Oh but only a short distance, in my village, everyone has a normal height.

Small like him, ha ha ha.

I couldn't find the snake that keeps chasing you to bite repeatedly.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:10 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jester wrote:
Ava wrote:
guermantes wrote:
Confident and optimistic, Amanda Knox waits to hear the final verdict

The best friend of Amanda Knox says she has been transformed by prison, and is now waiting for the acquittal she and her family expect.

Tom Kington
Sunday, 18 September 2011

THE GUARDIAN



That's also a pretty strange quote from Madison:
"But Amanda has had four years to really reflect on who she is, a time no one else gets. Her character is really honed and she is more confident now than she ever was. It is strangely beautiful."
I suppose she wasn't aware of how cynical that can sound.

On another note: Is Amanda somehow privileged in terms of prison visit time?
It seems to me that she's allowed a lot of visits: Madison once a week, Chris twice a week.


I'm a little curious about the friendship that Paxton has with Knox too. Has Paxton had a boyfriend? I'm assuming she has, and all, but has she? Her latest hairdo makes me wonder if she's trying to morph into Knox - with that unkempt prison look. I'm sure that Knox is more confident about beating the murder conviction at this time than she has been since prior to the guilty verdict, but how is that beautiful?

I simply cannot believe that after spending 4 years in jail, any prisoner can emerge with confidence. That is not a trait that society wants in convicted murderers. In fact, I suspect that prisoners have it instilled in them that they will listen and do as they're told; that they will not think, just do. I've seen the expression Knox has on her face when the guards talk to her and it isn't one of confidence, it's one of submission.

Oh look ... they're twins!



Jester, Check out the look in Amanda's eyes. A picture's worth a thousand words.............. eee-)

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:28 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

That is precisely what struck me too Cape

she has that same look in every single photo of her

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:37 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

another thing is, of course Mellas reads everything.
If he sees stuff that he thinks is an angle to work on, he does.

For instance, about me and others having said yeah the photos of them right after the murder when she said they'd had all of those showers, but her hair all like they'd been dragged backwards through a bush,

well, I can imagine Mellas saying to Knox that they say this stuff about your hair, so maybe it'd be good for you to wear your hair all over the place (like a mess) sometimes, so that they can't say you look all tidy after a shower. I can imagine Mellas trying to change these things,. Telling her, yeah, because you did look a mess on that morning but afterwards, your hair always looks neat and tidy, so why not let your hair be untidy sometimes, even when it is obvious you've had a shower, like when appearing in court, so that they cannot think these things about you.

Knox has the look of calculated posturing all about her in everything she does, the one characteristic she always has about her, is I am FAKING it.

Me, I reckon they really do get up to this kind of nonsense, but it is all too late, Knox has way too much to hide and no amount of posturing can put the things right that have already been seen to be so very wrong.

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Last edited by zorba on Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:00 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Yes, Zorba. I think it's pretty obvious, those eyes, yes? If eyes are the windows of the soul.....well.

Amanda lying about the shower. It's important, I believe. Too much information. It creates a problem. Why lie..when it's so obvious that she didn't, with the rank odour thrown in, affirming no shower took place, never mind shampooing and blowdrying.

Same thing with the bath mat boogie. Behaviour also plays a part in decideing guilt. Ask just about any juror. Coupled with the lies ( Oh, let's not forget Amanda now admitting that she lied, re Patrick) the can't remembers...and NO ALIBI. In fact, spinning as much as the groupies want to, Raff threw her under the bus.

It's not possible to try and spin EVERYTHING away, trying to make guilt look like innocence. They lose all credibility, imo.

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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:06 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Hello everybody,

I’m happy to report that my little critique of the lack of openness on the cloned website is already making a big impact. Can you believe it? Lo and behold, we can view pictures of kittens again, though personally I prefer case-related photos to furry animals, and the annoying red footers are gone! That’s what I call swift and immediate action.

Whether the decision to open the forum to outsiders was motivated by the fear of loosing the reader base to competitors (?), fear of making their readers unhappy or something else, we will probably never know. Whether an emergency meeting was held overnight in the backroom of the forum, or SB simply used her influence with Clander (I wonder if she also ‘looked him in the eye’?) is anyone’s guess. Not that I consider myself to be a competitor in any shape or form, being the non-native English semi-speaker that I am, but, as you can see, a little constructive criticism from a friendly ‘opposition’ can go a long way to making improvements that will benefit all. We’ll find out soon enough if we can have access to the links as 'guests'. One small step at a time I guess.

And to state a truth, which you might already know, there’s no competition as such. Many forums can be in the blogosphere together. Part of being open means you’re not exclusive with information, you’re open to ALL.

Cheers, G.


Last edited by guermantes on Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:47 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Knox appeal enters final stage

By ANDREA VOGT, Special to SEATTLEPI.COM
Updated 10:01 p.m., Sunday, September 18, 2011

SEATTLE PI
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:43 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

zorba wrote:
Thanks for vids Michael, couple of nice things in there and funny too, the little guy saying, Oh but only a short distance, in my village, everyone has a normal height.

Small like him, ha ha ha.

I couldn't find the snake that keeps chasing you to bite repeatedly.



Oh, you won't find that snake in those clips, they are just very short clips. You need to see the series to see the snake and all the other wonderful things. Unfortunately, the clips I posted constitute the totality of what's available online.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:02 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

guermantes wrote:
Hello everybody,

I’m happy to report that my little critique of the lack of openness on the cloned website is already making a big impact. Can you believe it? Lo and behold, we can view pictures of kittens again, though personally I prefer case-related photos to furry animals, and the annoying red footers are gone! That’s what I call swift and immediate action.

Whether the decision to open the forum to outsiders was motivated by the fear of loosing the reader base to competitors (?), fear of making their readers unhappy or something else, we will probably never know. Whether an emergency meeting was held overnight in the backroom of the forum, or SB simply used her influence with Clander (I wonder if she also ‘looked him in the eye’?) is anyone’s guess. Not that I consider myself to be a competitor in any shape or form, being the non-native English semi-speaker that I am, but, as you can see, a little constructive criticism from a friendly ‘opposition’ can go a long way to making improvements that will benefit all. We’ll find out soon enough if we can have access to the links as 'guests'. One small step at a time I guess.

And to state a truth, which you might already know, there’s no competition as such. Many forums can be in the blogosphere together. Part of being open means you’re not exclusive with information, you’re open to ALL.

Cheers, G.



What about 'search'?

What red footer do you mean, by the way?

They shouldn't need 'friendly criticism' from elsewhere to sort these things out...it shouldn't have been the case in the first place. That's what happens when you forget your guiding principles and once you start forgetting those, then something is rotten in Denmark. This is the primary reason why I refused to bow to pressure and close this board when the clone was created...I simply did not trust the new management of the clone to uphold those guiding principles, to maintain and protect all the data and ensure it remains available to all, regardless of membership, being signed in or not or having special privileges or not or any other kinds of restrictions. When you are a steward of PMF, you are not simply a steward of a 'place', but of a prime directive, an ethos and of guiding principles that are bigger and more important than any number of bits and bytes or bandwidth packets.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:28 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

From Andrea's article (thanks Guermantes):


Quote:
The jury members have free reign to fashion their decision as they please. They could acquit, convict or also choose to convict on lesser charges, reducing sentences, or even opt to release Knox from prison but order house arrest with electronic monitoring in Italy as the case moves on to the final phase in Court of Cassation.

If there is a full acquittal, Knox would go from court to Capanne penitentiary and after two hours of signing papers, walk out of prison a free woman.

"It is common for Italian courts of appeal to review sentences, and I would not be surprised if the two defendants in fact receive a more lenient sentence, also given the final outcome of Guede's trial," said Stefano Maffei, who teaches criminal procedure at the University of Parma.....

....According to Maffei, it is "perfectly possible" that the court could acquit. In this scenario, Knox would be freed "and nothing could prevent her from leaving the country," he said, "unless the prosecution seeks some measure in relation to other charges she faces."

That scenario would surely trigger inquiries into how the investigation was conducted and set the stage for a retrial for Guede because the decision would conflict directly with the Court of Cassation's ruling on Guede, convicted of committing the murder along with others, using evidence handled by the same labs and crime scene investigators.

"If Knox and Sollecito's conviction is overturned we are ready to ask for a retrial immediately," Guede's attorney Valter Biscotti said last week.

If released, Knox could seek compensation for unjust incarceration (in Italy, the maximum is 500,000 euros) and would be poised for book and movie deals once home. But it is not a given that she would immediately embrace such opportunities. While a public relations campaign swirls around the case, she is not directing it. More her style, friends say, would be a low-key trip to her favourite neighborhood pizza joint on beautiful Alki beach, with its iconic views of downtown Seattle and the Space Needle.


The above has some quite important information on how the mechanism with the judges will work, possible sentencing permutations and options for the prosecution if it goes against them. Since there are so many possible outcomes and so many factors involved, I can quite understand why few are willing to call it.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:42 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

capealadin wrote:
Hi Jackie.

How do I do it? I think it's because I come from a place, inside me, that cries out for justice. Because, the dead don't have a voice, except for their loved ones, and the ones seeking justice. The victim is forgotten, for the most part, and it's just not right.

There is a certainty, for me, that the right people are in prison. An absolute certainty. Murders were solved, before the time of DNA, the modern forensics. And, few murders had eyewitnesses. And, 99% or more of murderers, deny involvement...


Cape, you're absolutely correct to say that victims of crime are effectively forgotten/ left with out a voice when their (alleged) victimizers are brought to trial. (That's what makes PMF and TJMK so kewl! They're helping to assert Meredith's rights in the court of public opinion despite having to face the nastiest professional PR campaign I've ever witnessed.)

I find it difficult to rationalize/ endorse any system that puts the rights of an (oftentimes repugnant) accused on a pedestal in the center of the courtroom while relegating the rights of the victim(s) to the cheap seats.

The problem starts the moment we choose to conceptualize a criminal wrong as conduct that is harmful to society, as a whole, rather than as conduct that is harmful to a particular individual or individuals (which is addressed under the rubric of tort law).

When I went to law school, there was a lot of talk about "restorative justice" as a means of addressing the shortcomings of this approach/ giving victims a voice, but I am no expert on the subject. I suspect you might be familiar with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa, which is one of the better known examples of this bold 'new' (yet ancient) approach.

I admire victims that are willing to go this route (it makes me think there's hope for the human race), but I am too big on retribution and deterrence (as Zorba's BBC link illustrates, it may well be the case that sociopaths are simply not capable of genuine remorse or concern for anyone but themselves, which would render their words and acts of 'contrition' meaningless/ insufficient to justify the 'break' they're being granted).

As for the CSI Effect, I couldn't agree more: DNA testing of crime scenes really only began around 1982 or so and the administration of justice hummed along quite well up to that point. Indeed, the advent of DNA testing helped to establish that the pre-1982 wrongful conviction rate was something on the order of 1% (even worst-case estimates don't run higher than 10%).

Getting it right that often without benefit of DNA testing is testament to the fact that non-DNA evidence can be highly relevant, probative and reliable.

I'm always surprised to see that a lot of intelligent lay people labour under the mistaken belief that "forensic evidence" (DNA or otherwise) is not "circumstantial" in nature. And how did it come to be that the general public appears to believe that "circumstantial" evidence is somehow inferior to "direct" evidence?!

As you point out, "direct" evidence of murder (e.g. an eye witness to the killing) is not only rare (for the obvious reason that murderers tend to do the deed when no one is looking), it's often completely unreliable - eyewitness misidentification is the NUMBER ONE cause of wrongful convictions!!!

And enough already with the phrase, "hard evidence" - surely there must be a few journalists with JDs out there! They can't ALL be relying on silly lingo from cops shows, can they?!

Too many lay people are approaching jury duty with too many misconceptions and the courts are not doing enough to set them straight along the way to a verdict. Some of the brighter lights in the JLOL crowd (Halkides, LJ, KL) even have me wondering whether prospective jurors should be given not only IQ tests but something like an MMPI or an EI test before letting them serve!





PS Bob's back, just for you, Cape.

PPS I wouldn't say I'm young and you're far from "old"! ;-)
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:44 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

capealadin wrote:
Yes, Zorba. I think it's pretty obvious, those eyes, yes? If eyes are the windows of the soul.....well.

Amanda lying about the shower. It's important, I believe. Too much information. It creates a problem. Why lie..when it's so obvious that she didn't, with the rank odour thrown in, affirming no shower took place, never mind shampooing and blowdrying.

Same thing with the bath mat boogie. Behaviour also plays a part in deciding guilt. Ask just about any juror. Coupled with the lies ( Oh, let's not forget Amanda now admitting that she lied, re Patrick) the can't remembers...and NO ALIBI. In fact, spinning as much as the groupies want to, Raff threw her under the bus.

It's not possible to try and spin EVERYTHING away, trying to make guilt look like innocence. They lose all credibility, imo.



Hi Cape,

The worst thing about lies and liars is, that the one on the receiving end of lies, at a certain point, is unable to trust anything the other says, cannot trust even if he/she wanted to.

The reason being, obviously, that the person telling the lie, has already gone over a barrier, the barrier being the bit where you respect the other person, when you lie to someone, you show you do not respect them. If you have disrespected them in that way once, then you, knowing the other can do that to you because they already did, know that they can do it again. You cannot know that they will not, it's like cheating on someone, once you've done it, you cannot undo it. You break something. The broken part is not an element like Knox thinks it is, something that can be played around with. Sollecito, he already made the same mistake, early on, changed what he'd said early on, but even though it all took place early on, it did not mean that after his announcement - that he had indeed told lies, only to help Knox - everyone started trusting anything, everything or a thing he said, on the contrary, he'd already shown that he was capable of breaking the one fine line that should never be broken, the one of being credible, the line showing the truthful person as opposed to someone devious, capable of disrespecting others by not caring about taking them for fools.

Seeing as we, as humans, do not like to be made fools of, then gluing the broken line back together is something that does not work, it's like the stories and the apologies go so and so far as to joining the severed ends up, but anytime there's a little weight, like doubt, and a true need to be sure, the weight of the previous knowledge means the line comes unglued real fast because it is just two broken ends glued together but not something whole anymore.

The glue might become real tough if the right type is used, the right type of glue would be the right type of action. The action would have to involve not simply telling more lies, but let's say in Knox's case, and Sollecito's case, that they actually owned up. That's the only way that those two will ever be believed properly about things that are vital. They will need to explain how it is/why it was that they killed Meredith. This is because they have clearly told many lies, not one.

Prepositioning and posturing, as Knox now did, with her, Yes, well, let me admit it, yes, I did tell A LIE, as though she had just told one (single lie), but it was not a real important one and she was confused, will just not work for her.

The thing that is all wrong about Sollecito's positioning and posturing, is that the entire air of it comes across as threatening, bossy and arrogant, it is not so much that he is actually allowing you to see, even things his way, or any way, but rather a matter of he dictates, where he does this, he comes across as entirely lacking in backbone. The backbone is the strength of conviction and that strength is recognised by the nature of it, one that does not need the nervousness of pretence but rather is characterised by a person not having to be ready with stories but being able to respond in a natural way, convincingly, and the ability to do this, is only done through having the facts of truth behind you.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:00 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jester wrote:
...I do know that it was the sort of thing that once you had a little, you did want more - to kind of keep the high going. I know that I was really wired for the entire night and that we (there were four of us) were all over the place ... various clubs and so on - adding alcohol to the mix. For me, the entire night was a complete blur after the fact. There is absolutely no way I could have recounted the events of the night no matter how hard I tried. All the senses seemed to be on overdrive. We were a very coherent group of four even though I had only met two of the people once or twice - I knew them about as well as Knox knew Guede. I do remember that there was one close call in terms of an altercation between one of the people I was with and another person, but that is all a blur too. I didn't understand it at the time, and I still don't understand it. After that, I cut contact with all three people. They were not first time users, like I was. All I wanted to do afterwards was sleep for a very long time. Knox's memory wipe and confusion could easily have been caused by using cocaine for the first time on Nov 1. Using cocaine in a group, like I did, made us a team for the night although they were not the type of people I would normally team up with. I also recall that it was easy to have the wrong perceptions about things. I wouldn't recommend the experience to anyone, but it did satisfy my curiosity.


Awesome post, Jester. Thank you for sharing your experience. It fits perfectly with the notion that RS introduced AK to cocaine that night and that the drug was the catalyst for thrill seeking behavior/ an altercation/ temporary bonding with mere acquaintances / confusion/ memory loss/ exhaustion after the fact and so on.

I'm still leaning hard toward the drug-fueled prank theory!
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:33 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

zorba wrote:
...
2) Yes, I have seen people react poorly, for instance, become a pain to be around,
after their very first line...
When I say substance-stimulant I mean that the level one engages in on cocaine, is that of getting kicks....

SPEED: Mostly, if a person is not used to amphetamine, they will be unable (in most cases) to ingest much of anything whether food or drink. Again, initially, I would say, from what I've seen and experienced, amphetamine is something that is able to de-adjust, malign a person's sense of reality, I would say even more so than cocaine is able to do. ...

With heroin, a person addicted, will be unable to think of anything else...the person will be quite laid back, as opposed to someone on cocaine, who is not laid back but very much in everyone’s face, and full of themselves, thinking that they are really great, feeling great but for someone who is simply clean the face to face with a person high on coke can be highly unpleasant, ...

The effects of being high on coke is not something that can be compared to memory loss.
In the rosy cushion-like effects of cocaine one does have their wits about them, very much so, it's just the things that they think they see so clearly and the reasons they think they are feeling so great, the kick, while high, is removed as soon as one is no longer high, once the effects have worn off, a person cannot access the high anymore, but they do know where they were and what they did and who was there. After all cocaine is in no way a downer, whereas with a sleeping pill, a tranquilizer, one has a heightened state of awareness, reactions are speeded up but not in the nasty cheap way that this also happens when high on speed...
...high on coke they'd drink an awful lot too, beer mostly, but if someone happened to have a bottle of something strong, most of those present would gladly indulge in that too. The entire thing is kicks tha'ts why, the more the merrier, right up until total wipe-out/off your facedness....Speed will destroy a person faster than cocaine will, especially if the coke is clean. ...
You know with the turning phones off, that strikes me as being part of a precautionary measure, for them to be able to do something, not to murder Meredith, but to do something what was to them adventurous; the plan to take certain drugs and to experience them and not be disturbed.
So once they had done that and were in that, the things that ensued, easily turned into nasty wickedness, but are not complicated in the way some seem to imagine,

It does not stand to reason that Knox and Sollecito wold have planned to murder Meredith right there in Knox’s own home, and so they in no way set about turning off the phones with a wicked intention.

My view is that this murder was carried out for the most futile of reasons, the reasons being simply that there were actually no real reasons, it was a spontaneous run of bad, bad vibes and thoughts, and a mix of Knox’s problems coming out.

I do believe control was lost, but I believe that Knox had issues that were just all unleashed by the aid of the shit they took.

It was not LSD. It was not smoking weed or hash that could have pushed them into such depths, it had to be a mixture, I'd say of coke/speed, possibly with XTC.

XTC being the ingredient that could get people into entering areas of promiscuity, but that mixed with coke, perhaps later on, and even speed additionally, could have really warped them up.
...

but coke isn't like LSD or being high on weed, as it is a different degree of being high, it is a stimulant and it wears off fast and if you like it you just want to keep having that high, and that's where addiction steps in. I say a certain type of individual may remain calm on coke but mostly, from what I've seen coke users are pretty hyper.

Someone who has very little experience with ANY substances, like never drinking, not smoked weed, none of it, will I reckon get pretty whacked if using coke.
Someone who drinks a lot (or who has used a lot o speed or heroin), though taking a different type of substance, an upper with coke as opposed to a downer like alcohol, will, though undergoing two totally different effects (uppers & downers), at least be used to doing things to the own nervous system that are not natural. So it really is pretty hard to answer your question(s).

Yes, I'm realising as I write, that someone who is used to drinking may not be as heavily affected by a bit of coke as someone might who has always been entirely clean. Alcohol is already a heavy substance, it is a hard drug.


Fantastic post, Zorba! Thank you for taking the time to pour out all of that information. A lot to consider. I'm such a square. Just using the word, square is, well ... square. I know this. And yet I can't help myself. Anything else would be pretense. A little weed, a little hash. In my youth. That's it. I once took a psychoneuropharmacology course during my BSc that covered these drugs (but for XTC), however, it occurs to me now that it's likely that neither the professor nor the lab instructors had ever tried any of these drugs notwithstanding their willingness to drone on and on and on about their chemical structure, mechanism of action, etc., etc.. The blind leading the blind, I suppose.

Now, it seems to me that you would be in agreement with Jester on the effects of cocaine but for the confusion/ memory loss aspect that Jester recalls, is that right?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:47 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jackie wrote:
Now, it seems to me that you would be in agreement with Jester on the effects of cocaine but for the confusion/ memory loss aspect that Jester recalls, is that right?


I never suffered any confusion or memory loss with it, I have to say. That isn't a common feature. Memory loss is more associated with depressants, like opiates, weed and alcohol. Stimulants, for most people, enhance memory. In fact, there is a trend among students for taking amphetamine (speed) when doing exams as it enhances memory, focus and intelligence.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7684963.stm

http://jscms.jrn.columbia.edu/cns/2007- ... abuse.html

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:57 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

On amphetamines:


Amphetamines are a popular drug of choice for people who are looking to stay awake and alert for a long period of time. They are a form of stimulant which give an instant ‘high’ and the effects of these drugs, especially if injected, can remain in the body for many hours.

If smoked or injected then the effects are instantaneous but with other forms, the effects can last longer.

Often used by clubbers, lorry drivers, athletes and students.

What are amphetamines?
Amphetamines are synthetic drugs which act as a stimulant on the human body. In other words they act in a very similar way to adrenaline � a naturally occurring hormone in the body. Examples of these include amphetamine sulphate and dexamphetamine.

Another type of amphetamine is called methamphetamine which is discussed further on in this section.

They were originally designed to treat obesity, depression and nasal congestion but their medical value has almost disappeared. However there are two forms of amphetamines which are still in use today and these include:

Dexedrine: used to treat narcolepsy (sleep disorder) Ritalin: used to treat attention deficit disorder in children (ADHD) These are produced for legitimate reasons but others are made in illegal laboratories for street/recreational use.

Amphetamines are a Class B drug.

What do amphetamines look like?
Pure amphetamines come as a white, crystalline powder whereas those which have been mixed or ‘cut’ with another substance will be off-white or greyish in colour.

The powder form is usually available in ‘wraps’.

Other forms include crystals and small tablets.

How are they used?
Amphetamines are usually dabbed in the mouth (gums) or snorted as a ‘line’ using a folded banknote. The type of amphetamine used to treat ADHD is taken orally (small white pills). It can also be injected or added to drinks.

Another option is that of rolling the powder up in cigarette paper before swallowing it. This is called a ‘speedbomb’.

What is its street name?
There are many slang terms for amphetamines which include:

Ice Snow Speed Whizz/Billy Whizz Dexies Uppers Base Bennies Crank Who uses amphetamines?
Amphetamines are popular with young people especially clubbers and partygoers. Other people include those trying to lose weight, students trying to revise before exams and lorry drivers or people who drive long distances for a living.

How much do they cost?
On the average, a ‘wrap’ of speed can cost �8 to �12.

The effects of amphetamines
They act in a similar way to other forms of stimulants such as cocaine, ecstasy or caffeine in that they give an energy boost, increase alertness and a feeling of euphoria.

The physical effects of amphetamines include:

Increased heart rate and blood pressure Dilated pupils Increased breathing Reduced appetite Very large doses can result in tremors, irregular heartbeat, sweating, fever, blurred vision, nausea and a lack of co-ordination.

Your reaction to amphetamines will depend upon age, other substances, any current medical conditions, your present mood, how long you have been taking them, how often and in what form (injected, smoked etc).

The psychological affects of amphetamines include:

Confidence Alertness Euphoria Excited Talkative Restless Feeling as if you are ‘on top of the world’ Tenseness Aggressiveness Insomnia

http://www.medic8.com/healthguide/artic ... mines.html

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

In Jester's case, I would suggest what happened is that she overdosed. Overdosing on a stimulant can cause the opposite of its standard effects, so that sharpness of the mind becomes a confusion of the mind because you become so sensitive to outside stimulas it actually overwhelms you and so your brain is unable to process it. If you can't process the data in the first place, that inevitably results in memory loss...although memory 'loss' isn't accurate, rather it's more the case that you weren't able to write the memory properly in the first place. Mixing with alcohol (as I believe Jester did) will also enhance that negative effect.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jackie wrote:

Now, it seems to me that you would be in agreement with Jester on the effects of cocaine but for the confusion/ memory loss aspect that Jester recalls, is that right?


Hello Jackie, you're welcome to what I know, no prob.

Yes, if downers including booze and heroin can and often do affect memory.

Weed can affect memory but not necessarily so. Characteristically, weed/hash affects the short-term memory leaving the long-term memory intact, even enhanced. The bit about having weed affect short-term memory I think is not always really the direct effect, it's just that silly little things seem to become unimportant to someone stoned on cannabis (weed/hash), therefore it could be more a lack of desire to pay attention to what are felt in a way to be silly trivialities.

If a person has not smoked a lot, I would expect weed/hash to be capable of affecting memory more than it could in someone who is used to using weed/hash.

However, all of these things are still partly determined through/by personal traits, habits, dispositions, attitudes and personal circumstances. A person who uses that much cocaine that he/she is in fact an addict but nonetheless holds down a full time job, in any walk of working life, may be busy in such a way with certain things that having good memory of certain things is something he/she has learned to do and be able to do.

Someone else who sits around all day getting stoned on weed, drinking, having lines of coke and sometimes speed, going out to clubs and dropping pills too, and having no bars held, taking downers when wanting to sleep, well in someone like this, I do not know what characteristic behaviour might be determined because it could all be very mixed up.

There are people who go for one main thing, they are really into coke or have chosen speed or weed and then one can see certain behavioural traits without it all being a mix up.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
Jackie wrote:
Now, it seems to me that you would be in agreement with Jester on the effects of cocaine but for the confusion/ memory loss aspect that Jester recalls, is that right?


I never suffered any confusion or memory loss with it, I have to say. That isn't a common feature. Memory loss is more associated with depressants, like opiates, weed and alcohol. Stimulants, for most people, enhance memory. In fact, there is a trend among students for taking amphetamine (speed) when doing exams as it enhances memory, focus and intelligence.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7684963.stm

http://jscms.jrn.columbia.edu/cns/2007- ... abuse.html


Hi Michael - interesting. I wonder if alcohol played a role in creating the 'blur' that Jester experienced. Perhaps it's only a matter of individual differences.

Either way, I'm liking the cocaine-fueled prank theory. Looking for kicks on the Halloween long weekend. Stupid and immature. Like Knox.

K & S tested positive for an unidentified "narcotic" via a hair test, correct?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jackie wrote:
Michael wrote:
Jackie wrote:
Now, it seems to me that you would be in agreement with Jester on the effects of cocaine but for the confusion/ memory loss aspect that Jester recalls, is that right?


I never suffered any confusion or memory loss with it, I have to say. That isn't a common feature. Memory loss is more associated with depressants, like opiates, weed and alcohol. Stimulants, for most people, enhance memory. In fact, there is a trend among students for taking amphetamine (speed) when doing exams as it enhances memory, focus and intelligence.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7684963.stm

http://jscms.jrn.columbia.edu/cns/2007- ... abuse.html


Hi Michael - interesting. I wonder if alcohol played a role in creating the 'blur' that Jester experienced. Perhaps it's only a matter of individual differences.

Either way, I'm liking the cocaine-fueled prank theory. Looking for kicks on the Halloween long weekend. Stupid and immature. Like Knox.

K & S tested positive for an unidentified "narcotic" via a hair test, correct?



My feeling is that they used a mixture, I can very well imagine Sollecito being the good provider to his American new-found thing, he able easily to buy speed, it being cheap and available but then that they were into partying with those things, it's hardly likely that being willing to take one thing they'd decline another, if willing to have speed they'd have gladly used coke too. I think they used perhaps as many as three substances, XTC, speed and cocaine.

That would explain the way out-ness of their behaviour, the XTC introducing the desire elements- SEX, and the other drugs warping (destroying any good effects of the XTC that could be harmless) things up to hell.

I don't know if you know much about XTC but people high on it often suddenly become people they never knew or thought they were or could be, going home with someone, male or female or a group or having a trio or a four-o whatever that is, anything is possible!

Inhibitions are thrown out of the window.
It's in combination with this (what can be entirely harmless preoccupations because who writes the rule book on what someone should prefer as to amount of sexual partners, or whether everyone should get married and do as the parents did?) and other types of drugs that things might be turned into something warped and nasty.

I think in this case this is what happened and it led to Meredith getting murdered.

Knox and Sollecito were the complete picture of two persons awake all night, entirely in that trip, so much so that they, exhausted after trying to set right as well as possible what they'd done wrong, they not as much supported one another but could do nothing else other than remain in the actual same state they'd been in, where they are then seen kissing and cuddling,

any type of real support like in reaction to the god almighty awful things they'd supposedly just been finding out, entirely lacking.

No sign of usual reactions that's why they appeared perverse, and were PERVERSE.

The reason they appeared/seemed perverse stood there kissing was because they were reacting to nothing, simply because they could not react to things they had full knowledge of already.

There was no surprise, no shocking and horrific surprise, because they were the engineers of the stuff that was being discovered.


Fred Perkins on working out E = bla bla squared fell to his knees my god, look he barked. And why are you not surprised Mr Einstein? Well it's just I already discovered this 10 years before you, that's all, how could I be surprised, I knew it already.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

If it's true what Guede said and I think it may be, then for Meredith to have referred to Knox as a drugged-up anything (tart) she must have had good reason to,

yes, because Knox was simply off her head,

you can be off your head on coke but mostly a coke effect alone (coke on its own) wouldn't inspire such a remark or response but a mixture of drugs really mashing a person up and making them unbearable, a pain - WOULD/MIGHT/COULD!

And it's Knox's screwed up behaviour that Meredith objected to. Knox wouldn't accept anything, she was off her head and any criticism, or anything experienced as criticism by her, brought the worst out in her, the worst which was not far below the surface, as she was an entirely unstable woman.
Meredith's stability, I think, is what formed a confrontation for Knox, because Knox's world was and still is, now more than ever, built on fallacies and lies. Her entire family are upholders of the unreal and the deceitful. It's the pseudologia fantastica that caused Knox such inner turmoil, that's why away from it, she fell apart, as that fakeness was what had formed her life.

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Last edited by zorba on Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jackie wrote:
Michael wrote:
Jackie wrote:
Now, it seems to me that you would be in agreement with Jester on the effects of cocaine but for the confusion/ memory loss aspect that Jester recalls, is that right?


I never suffered any confusion or memory loss with it, I have to say. That isn't a common feature. Memory loss is more associated with depressants, like opiates, weed and alcohol. Stimulants, for most people, enhance memory. In fact, there is a trend among students for taking amphetamine (speed) when doing exams as it enhances memory, focus and intelligence.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7684963.stm

http://jscms.jrn.columbia.edu/cns/2007- ... abuse.html


Hi Michael - interesting. I wonder if alcohol played a role in creating the 'blur' that Jester experienced. Perhaps it's only a matter of individual differences.

Either way, I'm liking the cocaine-fueled prank theory. Looking for kicks on the Halloween long weekend. Stupid and immature. Like Knox.

K & S tested positive for an unidentified "narcotic" via a hair test, correct?


Jackie, I don't know that it was 'an unidentified narcotic' that showed up on the hair analysis conducted on November 8, just marijuana. Any cocaine should have shown up by then. http://www.omegalabs.net/abouthairtesti ... ngfaq.aspx
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Oops sorry Jackie this should have read:

NOT: After all cocaine is in no way a downer, whereas* with a sleeping pill, a tranquilizer, one has a heightened state of awareness, reactions are speeded up but not in the nasty cheap way that this also happens when high on speed...


BUT INSTEAD: After all cocaine is in no way a downer like* is the case with a sleeping pill or a tranquilizer; with coke* one has a heightened state of awareness, reactions are speeded up but not in the nasty cheap way that this also happens when high on speed...


Sorry that was sloppy of me, it meant the complete opposite of what I intended.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Amanda Knox awaits murder appeal verdict

By Rosa Silverman

Monday, 19 September 2011


THE INDEPENDENT

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jackie wrote:
K & S tested positive for an unidentified "narcotic" via a hair test, correct?


I don't believe they were ever drug tested Jackie. Or at least, if they were, the result of any such drug test was never made public. If it was, I missed it.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
guermantes wrote:
Hello everybody,

I’m happy to report that my little critique of the lack of openness on the cloned website is already making a big impact. Can you believe it? Lo and behold, we can view pictures of kittens again, though personally I prefer case-related photos to furry animals, and the annoying red footers are gone! That’s what I call swift and immediate action.

Whether the decision to open the forum to outsiders was motivated by the fear of loosing the reader base to competitors (?), fear of making their readers unhappy or something else, we will probably never know. Whether an emergency meeting was held overnight in the backroom of the forum, or SB simply used her influence with Clander (I wonder if she also ‘looked him in the eye’?) is anyone’s guess. Not that I consider myself to be a competitor in any shape or form, being the non-native English semi-speaker that I am, but, as you can see, a little constructive criticism from a friendly ‘opposition’ can go a long way to making improvements that will benefit all. We’ll find out soon enough if we can have access to the links as 'guests'. One small step at a time I guess.

And to state a truth, which you might already know, there’s no competition as such. Many forums can be in the blogosphere together. Part of being open means you’re not exclusive with information, you’re open to ALL.

Cheers, G.



What about 'search'?

What red footer do you mean, by the way?

They shouldn't need 'friendly criticism' from elsewhere to sort these things out...it shouldn't have been the case in the first place. That's what happens when you forget your guiding principles and once you start forgetting those, then something is rotten in Denmark. This is the primary reason why I refused to bow to pressure and close this board when the clone was created...I simply did not trust the new management of the clone to uphold those guiding principles, to maintain and protect all the data and ensure it remains available to all, regardless of membership, being signed in or not or having special privileges or not or any other kinds of restrictions. When you are a steward of PMF, you are not simply a steward of a 'place', but of a prime directive, an ethos and of guiding principles that are bigger and more important than any number of bits and bytes or bandwidth packets.


The red footer

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Why don't they put up razor wire and have done with! st-))



rip) PMF org

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
In Jester's case, I would suggest what happened is that she overdosed. Overdosing on a stimulant can cause the opposite of its standard effects, so that sharpness of the mind becomes a confusion of the mind because you become so sensitive to outside stimulas it actually overwhelms you and so your brain is unable to process it. If you can't process the data in the first place, that inevitably results in memory loss...although memory 'loss' isn't accurate, rather it's more the case that you weren't able to write the memory properly in the first place. Mixing with alcohol (as I believe Jester did) will also enhance that negative effect.


It was crack cocaine and it was the only time I tried it. The guy I was dating, and two of his co-workers, were more regular users, but I didn't know that until the cocaine night. I don't know that I overdosed, as I have vague memories of the evening, but I suppose it's possible. I wouldn't be able to put together a timeline because everything went so fast, and I wouldn't be able to retrace my steps because I was in a different city about 12 hours from home. We had maybe 2 beer though the evening, maybe 3. I remember that around midnight all the cocaine was gone and everyone wanted more so one of the guys went out to get more. I know that I went into a very deep sleep at the end of it (roughly 6 AM) and when I woke up, I still had that crystal clear, intense feeling - but I didn't feel right at all. As soon as I'd slept enough, which was probably about 14 hours, I packed up my car and drove home - 12 hour nonstop drive. I was completely wired for the entire drive and when I was safely home, I became violently ill. I cut all contact with the guy that gave me the cocaine but he called out of the blue the other day ... thinking that because we had some history maybe he could stay with me while he is town for a couple of months. That certainly wasn't going to happen. If Knox was using cocaine with Sollecito, and he had used before while she was a new user, throw in a couple of drinks (as they admitted), it's possible that the drugs had a similar effect on her - nothing but vague memory and confusion between dream and reality.

As you say, the vagueness in memories would be consistent with short term memory loss. Even the following couple of days were a complete blur.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
Why don't they put up razor wire and have done with! st-))



rip) PMF org


Maybe limiting the use of the board to registered users was intended to track who was using the site and where they are from ... email, IP addresses.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jester wrote:
The red footer



Yes Michael, that's the red footer, a sort of extra signature added at the bottom of some posts (Thanks Jester :) ) It's now gone. Marvelous, isn't it?

The search function is still unavailable.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jester wrote:
Michael wrote:
Why don't they put up razor wire and have done with! st-))



rip) PMF org


Maybe limiting the use of the board to registered users was intended to track who was using the site and where they are from ... email, IP addresses.



No, that wasn't the reason. Clander is an 'IT man' and as such, is obsessed with IT perfection and he's raising that as a priority over the mandate, principles and ideals of the board. Not only is it completely unnecessary, it undermines PMF's whole purpose and everything it stands for. It's putting the proverbial cart before the horse.

What you are suggesting would also be an abuse of the whole ethical standards of PMF. It's one thing to track someone if they are a spammer or launching some form of attack or threats against the board, quite another to have an actual policy of tracking the membership, including those of differing opinions and that would go against everything we stand for. And in any case, a majority of members join and never or rarely post, so you can never match them to an actual identity of a specific individual. PMF doesn't exist to snoop on its members.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

guermantes wrote:
Jester wrote:
The red footer



Yes Michael, that's the red footer, a sort of extra signature added at the bottom of some posts (Thanks Jester :) ) It's now gone. Marvelous, isn't it?

The search function is still unavailable.



As I said, Clander shouldn't be restricting access to attachments/files in the first place. As for turning off the ability to search (even if only for guests), you effectively castrate the site as an information resource...and its whole purpose is to be an information resource. I'm appalled. I dread to think what else he's turn off, restricted or vandalised. If he's so concerned about bandwidth and server load...then I would suggest that if one is going to steal someone's website, one that is sacred...at least have the fecking decency to host it on a competent server or/and with a competent host where those aren't an issue.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jester wrote:
Michael wrote:
In Jester's case, I would suggest what happened is that she overdosed. Overdosing on a stimulant can cause the opposite of its standard effects, so that sharpness of the mind becomes a confusion of the mind because you become so sensitive to outside stimulas it actually overwhelms you and so your brain is unable to process it. If you can't process the data in the first place, that inevitably results in memory loss...although memory 'loss' isn't accurate, rather it's more the case that you weren't able to write the memory properly in the first place. Mixing with alcohol (as I believe Jester did) will also enhance that negative effect.


It was crack cocaine and it was the only time I tried it. The guy I was dating, and two of his co-workers, were more regular users, but I didn't know that until the cocaine night. I don't know that I overdosed, as I have vague memories of the evening, but I suppose it's possible. I wouldn't be able to put together a timeline because everything went so fast, and I wouldn't be able to retrace my steps because I was in a different city about 12 hours from home. We had maybe 2 beer though the evening, maybe 3. I remember that around midnight all the cocaine was gone and everyone wanted more so one of the guys went out to get more. I know that I went into a very deep sleep at the end of it (roughly 6 AM) and when I woke up, I still had that crystal clear, intense feeling - but I didn't feel right at all. As soon as I'd slept enough, which was probably about 14 hours, I packed up my car and drove home - 12 hour nonstop drive. I was completely wired for the entire drive and when I was safely home, I became violently ill. I cut all contact with the guy that gave me the cocaine but he called out of the blue the other day ... thinking that because we had some history maybe he could stay with me while he is town for a couple of months. That certainly wasn't going to happen. If Knox was using cocaine with Sollecito, and he had used before while she was a new user, throw in a couple of drinks (as they admitted), it's possible that the drugs had a similar effect on her - nothing but vague memory and confusion between dream and reality.

As you say, the vagueness in memories would be consistent with short term memory loss. Even the following couple of days were a complete blur.



Ahhh...crack cocaine. Crack cocaine and cocaine are two different drugs with different effects, even though they derive from the same root narcotic.

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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
Jester wrote:
Michael wrote:
In Jester's case, I would suggest what happened is that she overdosed. Overdosing on a stimulant can cause the opposite of its standard effects, so that sharpness of the mind becomes a confusion of the mind because you become so sensitive to outside stimulas it actually overwhelms you and so your brain is unable to process it. If you can't process the data in the first place, that inevitably results in memory loss...although memory 'loss' isn't accurate, rather it's more the case that you weren't able to write the memory properly in the first place. Mixing with alcohol (as I believe Jester did) will also enhance that negative effect.


It was crack cocaine and it was the only time I tried it. The guy I was dating, and two of his co-workers, were more regular users, but I didn't know that until the cocaine night. I don't know that I overdosed, as I have vague memories of the evening, but I suppose it's possible. I wouldn't be able to put together a timeline because everything went so fast, and I wouldn't be able to retrace my steps because I was in a different city about 12 hours from home. We had maybe 2 beer though the evening, maybe 3. I remember that around midnight all the cocaine was gone and everyone wanted more so one of the guys went out to get more. I know that I went into a very deep sleep at the end of it (roughly 6 AM) and when I woke up, I still had that crystal clear, intense feeling - but I didn't feel right at all. As soon as I'd slept enough, which was probably about 14 hours, I packed up my car and drove home - 12 hour nonstop drive. I was completely wired for the entire drive and when I was safely home, I became violently ill. I cut all contact with the guy that gave me the cocaine but he called out of the blue the other day ... thinking that because we had some history maybe he could stay with me while he is town for a couple of months. That certainly wasn't going to happen. If Knox was using cocaine with Sollecito, and he had used before while she was a new user, throw in a couple of drinks (as they admitted), it's possible that the drugs had a similar effect on her - nothing but vague memory and confusion between dream and reality.

As you say, the vagueness in memories would be consistent with short term memory loss. Even the following couple of days were a complete blur.



Ahhh...crack cocaine. Crack cocaine and cocaine are two different drugs with different effects, even though they derive from the same root narcotic.


It was definitely a beast, one that I wouldn't meet with again. I suspect that Knox and Sollecito, who both stated after the fact that they were swearing off drugs after Nov 1, had also met a beast that put them in an over-the-top frame of mind.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
guermantes wrote:
Jester wrote:
The red footer



Yes Michael, that's the red footer, a sort of extra signature added at the bottom of some posts (Thanks Jester :) ) It's now gone. Marvelous, isn't it?

The search function is still unavailable.



As I said, Clander shouldn't be restricting access to attachments/files in the first place. As for turning off the ability to search (even if only for guests), you effectively castrate the site as an information resource...and its whole purpose is to be an information resource. I'm appalled. I dread to think what else he's turn off, restricted or vandalised. If he's so concerned about bandwidth and server load...then I would suggest that if one is going to steal someone's website, one that is sacred...at least have the fecking decency to host it on a competent server or/and with a competent host where those aren't an issue.


I host through enom where hosting large sites with a huge amount of info is not an issue.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
to host it on a competent server or/and with a competent host where those aren't an issue.



Isn't this and the site Skeptikal Bystander is running, run on exactly the same servers, the one here below: phpBB Group?

The male you referred to the other day as being a nice chap, from Seattle, who is moderating, whom you wished the best, I am guessing you meant Fly By Night who I always thought was female.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jester wrote:
Michael wrote:
guermantes wrote:
Jester wrote:
The red footer



Yes Michael, that's the red footer, a sort of extra signature added at the bottom of some posts (Thanks Jester :) ) It's now gone. Marvelous, isn't it?

The search function is still unavailable.



As I said, Clander shouldn't be restricting access to attachments/files in the first place. As for turning off the ability to search (even if only for guests), you effectively castrate the site as an information resource...and its whole purpose is to be an information resource. I'm appalled. I dread to think what else he's turn off, restricted or vandalised. If he's so concerned about bandwidth and server load...then I would suggest that if one is going to steal someone's website, one that is sacred...at least have the fecking decency to host it on a competent server or/and with a competent host where those aren't an issue.


I host through enom where hosting large sites with a huge amount of info is not an issue.



Neither was it ever an issue here with our hosts, yet it didn't stop him wanting to make those changes here during his brief period as a member of staff. I overruled him, because not only did it completely undermine the whole ideal of the board, it was also completely unnecessary on a technical level. NEVER has this site ever experienced technical or security issues, in its over three and half years of existence, because of guest access to attachments or the search feature. Should any such issue ever arise, it can be dealt with quite simply.

The ideal of PMF is to be open and inclusive, not exclusive. The job of an Administrator is to defend the ideals of the community.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

zorba wrote:
Michael wrote:
to host it on a competent server or/and with a competent host where those aren't an issue.



Isn't this and the site Skeptikal Bystander is running, run on exactly the same servers, the one here below: phpBB Group?

The male you referred to the other day as being a nice chap, from Seattle, who is moderating, whom you wished the best, I am guessing you meant Fly By Night who I always thought was female.



No. PHPBB is simply the software engine that the board runs on, not our servers.

Yes, the nice chap from Seattle I meant was Fly By Night. And I assure you, he's a he :)

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
zorba wrote:
Michael wrote:
to host it on a competent server or/and with a competent host where those aren't an issue.



Isn't this and the site Skeptikal Bystander is running, run on exactly the same servers, the one here below: phpBB Group?

The male you referred to the other day as being a nice chap, from Seattle, who is moderating, whom you wished the best, I am guessing you meant Fly By Night who I always thought was female.



No. PHPBB is simply the software engine that the board runs on, not our servers.

Yes, the nice chap from Seattle I meant was Fly By Night. And I assure you, he's a he :)



Oh I see.

I was mixed up couldn't imagine you were talking about Clander as a lovely chap from Seattle.
Didn't know who else was moderating there.

The one I had in mind from Seattle was the woman who lost a child and was harrassed by the Knox League even using her loss in some nasty, terrible ways, against her.

One of the good things is that the trolls plague that site and not this one.

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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
Jester wrote:
Michael wrote:
guermantes wrote:
Jester wrote:
The red footer



Yes Michael, that's the red footer, a sort of extra signature added at the bottom of some posts (Thanks Jester :) ) It's now gone. Marvelous, isn't it?

The search function is still unavailable.



As I said, Clander shouldn't be restricting access to attachments/files in the first place. As for turning off the ability to search (even if only for guests), you effectively castrate the site as an information resource...and its whole purpose is to be an information resource. I'm appalled. I dread to think what else he's turn off, restricted or vandalised. If he's so concerned about bandwidth and server load...then I would suggest that if one is going to steal someone's website, one that is sacred...at least have the fecking decency to host it on a competent server or/and with a competent host where those aren't an issue.


I host through enom where hosting large sites with a huge amount of info is not an issue.



Neither was it ever an issue here with our hosts, yet it didn't stop him wanting to make those changes here during his brief period as a member of staff. I overruled him, because not only did it completely undermine the whole ideal of the board, it was also completely unnecessary on a technical level. NEVER has this site ever experienced technical or security issues, in its over three and half years of existence, because of guest access to attachments or the search feature. Should any such issue ever arise, it can be dealt with quite simply.

The ideal of PMF is to be open and inclusive, not exclusive. The job of an Administrator is to defend the ideals of the community.


I've certainly had my share of dealings with IT/software people in my time and one thing they all seem to have in common is that if a bell/whistle is new, then it should be used. The problem with this philosophy is that bells and whistles are added without fully exploring the consequences. It's like my schizophrenic synchonous class where I have online and in class students simultaneously. The camera is pointed at the chair in front of the computer, whereas it should be pointed to the large screen at the front of the class. My computer interface is shared with students, so that's a good thing, but there's a chat bar at the side that is a distraction. The whole system was rushed into because it's there, not because it's a good idea, and I have yet to give a coherent lecture in that class because the expectation to multitask is over the moon crazy. The problem is that online students have a different learning experience than inclass students, and trying to blend or blur it into one learning style has resulted in a compromise for everyone. I have decided that if the situation isn't drastically improved or changed in the next couple of weeks, I will be giving up this lucrative work as I simply don't need the stress ... but back on point ... too often a new electronic trick, tool or gadget is adopted without questioning whether it is actually an improvement, but because it's there.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

There are certainly occasions or functions where less is more. But this wasn't the thing with Clander, he was the opposite...ruthless cutting of features for cutting's sake, features I considered essential to the purpose of the board. There are certain bells and whistles I can live without...the chat box or even some of the custom BB codes for example. In fact, some of the bells and whistles are turned off, such as forum ranks, forum pruning, Adsense and the WYSIWYG Editor...to name a few. But, the ability to search the board or see attached images or download documents, is pretty damned essential if you're an information site in my view.

Can your IT bods not turn off certain features, like the chat box?

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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

RANT: speaking of work, I just got the most obnoxious email from a student that is having difficulties with an assignment that was given last Thursday. She emailed me an hour ago because she is having some difficulties starting the assignment and uses the phrase "could you kindly ... blah blah blah" several times and telling me to post my instructional materials online and expecting an extention because she started the assignment late and now only has one evening to work on it. Holly shit ... talk about the entitled attitude in students these days. Since when are lectures available after class? Sure, I've done it before, but since when is it an expectation? Take notes ... pay attention ... read the textbook ... and no, I've decided that I'm not posting my lecture materials online because I really don't feel like it. It's many extra hours of work and it's not worth it for me. I think this student thought she could whip off the assignment during lunch at work and now that she has realized it's going to take about 4 hours, she's all upset, but pissing me off is not the solution.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Oh dear :(

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Just Tweeted by Andrea Vogt:

andreavogt Andrea Vogt
10-ep TV documentary series on #forensics &
#true crime I reported
and collaborated on in #Italy
premiers Sept. 22. http://www.la7.it/laltrametadelcrimine/



Videos: MEREDITH KERCHER - La Pubblica Accusa

Il Pubblico Ministero Giuliano Mignini
17/06/2010

http://www.la7.it/laltrametadelcrimine/ ... ?id=i74860


MEREDITH KERCHER - 1A PUNTATA

17/06/2010


http://www.la7.it/laltrametadelcrimine/ ... ?id=i75306


(In the second video, the prison guards really don't mess about dragging Sollecito out and throwing him into the back of that prison van...he nearly flew in!!!)

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Tweeted by Barbie Nadeau:


BLNadeau Barbie Latza Nadeau
#AmandaKnox appeal dates in
flux,latest: Prosecution Sep 23/24, civil 26, sollecito 27, Knox 29, rebuttal/verdict oct 3, 4. No crt 28, 30, 1

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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
There are certainly occasions or functions where less is more. But this wasn't the thing with Clander, he was the opposite...ruthless cutting of features for cutting's sake, features I considered essential to the purpose of the board. There are certain bells and whistles I can live without...the chat box or even some of the custom BB codes for example. In fact, some of the bells and whistles are turned off, such as forum ranks, forum pruning, Adsense and the WYSIWYG Editor...to name a few. But, the ability to search the board or see attached images or download documents, is pretty damned essential if you're an information site in my view.

Can your IT bods not turn off certain features, like the chat box?


I can turn off the chat feature, but I'm not allowed to, just like I'm not allowed to turn off the camera that is supposed to be pointed at my head while I sit still in my chair throughout a 3 hour lecture. The chat is so that the online students can throw questions at me during the lecture and if I happen to notice their question mid-sentence, I'm supposed to stop and answer the question and then pick up mid-sentence and carry on. It's a crazy system right now. I would strongly recommend that anyone considering taking a synchonous online/in class course, don't do it. We're in the test pilot part of the process right now, but it's not a process that should be piloted with paying students ... in my opinion.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

It sounds a rather odd way of conducting a class to me. Can you not format it so that at the end of every segment of your lecture, then you field questions? So that, they can only ask questions at the end of each segment....with each segment being about 15 minutes? It sounds impractical to me, the format as it currently is...having to stop and answer questions that can come at any moment. It must be bad for the concentration of the students too.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jester wrote:

too often a new electronic trick, tool or gadget is adopted without questioning whether it is actually an improvement, but because it's there.



This sounds like an exact description of how things are shoved down people's necks by Google and Microsoft, like having things pop up all the time, as I have now through using Windows 7 with Explorer God knows how many, 9 or 10 cannot remember, with a bar at the bottom (one of many pop ups or bars, so-called extras that are entirely unnecessary) it says: Would you like to turn off your add ons to speed up browsing, bla bla bla,

but hey , don't we know by now - already having tried out all of these versions - that we can manage the add ons ourselves, we know where they are, in the place where it says manage add ons that can be located in about 36 dozen different oplaces, sidebars, top bars and yet now the lonely bottom bar crying out not to forget it, do we have to keep being irritated by a bar that we are then forced to click on to get rid off?

Answer yes, these geniuses that are coming up with what heýre selling as new, think it is a way to make us believe they've thought of something new or useful when they haven't and it isn't.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

AMANDA KNOX: “GOOD NEWS”
by DENVER September 19, 2011


GROUND REPORT

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jester wrote:
Michael wrote:
There are certainly occasions or functions where less is more. But this wasn't the thing with Clander, he was the opposite...ruthless cutting of features for cutting's sake, features I considered essential to the purpose of the board. There are certain bells and whistles I can live without...the chat box or even some of the custom BB codes for example. In fact, some of the bells and whistles are turned off, such as forum ranks, forum pruning, Adsense and the WYSIWYG Editor...to name a few. But, the ability to search the board or see attached images or download documents, is pretty damned essential if you're an information site in my view.

Can your IT bods not turn off certain features, like the chat box?


I can turn off the chat feature, but I'm not allowed to, just like I'm not allowed to turn off the camera that is supposed to be pointed at my head while I sit still in my chair throughout a 3 hour lecture. The chat is so that the online students can throw questions at me during the lecture and if I happen to notice their question mid-sentence, I'm supposed to stop and answer the question and then pick up mid-sentence and carry on. It's a crazy system right now. I would strongly recommend that anyone considering taking a synchonous online/in class course, don't do it. We're in the test pilot part of the process right now, but it's not a process that should be piloted with paying students ... in my opinion.



It all sounds very dictatorial. I think an element of fun & pleasure has to be included if one is to motivate others and oneself, if things are reasonable I think people can work really hard, if they can believe in things.

If you are not happy with the system I can't see how the students will feel that things are nice/good/right, but if your higher ups are dictating that you must enter into the far outreaches of cyberland then the students are going to approach you with unreasonable expectations as though you are a machine. It sounds like that anyhow.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Thanks, Jackie :)

Baghdad Bob..always makes me smile...grin. His take on things remind me of so many of the groupies. It didn't work for him or the Regime, won't work for them either. Talk about STIFF UPPER LIP !! :)

I meant to add as well, re my post you responded to. It's sickening the way the VICTIM is denegraded, put in a bad light. Which, btw, Amanda most certainly tried to do, vis a vis her e-mail, posted to HOW MANY people???????:(

And then, what really gets to me. The insults, slurs, attacking John Kercher. They have no shame.

I've come to the conclusion, that most of the groupies are attracted to Amanda, not least because they themselves have no empathy, no limits to socially accepted behaviour. They see themselves in her.

k-(( k-(( k-(( ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:22 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
Just Tweeted by Andrea Vogt:

andreavogt Andrea Vogt
10-ep TV documentary series on #forensics &
#true crime I reported
and collaborated on in #Italy
premiers Sept. 22. http://www.la7.it/laltrametadelcrimine/



Videos: MEREDITH KERCHER - La Pubblica Accusa

Il Pubblico Ministero Giuliano Mignini
17/06/2010

http://www.la7.it/laltrametadelcrimine/ ... ?id=i74860


MEREDITH KERCHER - 1A PUNTATA

17/06/2010


http://www.la7.it/laltrametadelcrimine/ ... ?id=i75306


(In the second video, the prison guards really don't mess about dragging Sollecito out and throwing him into the back of that prison van...he nearly flew in!!!)


I think that being in prison in Italy is a very serious situation and I think that prisoners have their free will and wilfulness taken from them one way or another. If Sollecito resisted what he had to do in the days after his arrest, I suspect he was treated in ways that made it clear who was in charge. I suspect Knox had it a little easier because she made accusations of poor treatment even when it didn't happen.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:08 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jester wrote:
It was definitely a beast, one that I wouldn't meet with again. I suspect that Knox and Sollecito, who both stated after the fact that they were swearing off drugs after Nov 1, had also met a beast that put them in an over-the-top frame of mind.


Yes, it IS odd that they'd both be swearing off drugs for good after an evening that entailed just one or two joints.

Another example of the horrible truth slipping out in dribs and drabs.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:36 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
Jackie wrote:
K & S tested positive for an unidentified "narcotic" via a hair test, correct?


I don't believe they were ever drug tested Jackie. Or at least, if they were, the result of any such drug test was never made public. If it was, I missed it.


I wonder where I read it...

There was a discussion about drug testing. IIRC, someone was claiming that blood and/or urine testing was not done because the metabolites of cocaine would have been eliminated by the time S & K had become suspects/ given the police probable cause/ RPG for a warrant (they have 2 to 5 days max with those 2 tests, I believe), so a hair test was done and it detected a trace of "narcotic" too small to be identified. Apparently, this result was consistent with a one time use of cocaine but might also have been caused by cannabis alone or some other drug or combination of drugs.

Now where did I read this??? I'm too fried to look it up now. Long day.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:45 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jester wrote:
RANT: speaking of work, I just got the most obnoxious email from a student that is having difficulties with an assignment that was given last Thursday. She emailed me an hour ago because she is having some difficulties starting the assignment and uses the phrase "could you kindly ... blah blah blah" several times and telling me to post my instructional materials online and expecting an extention because she started the assignment late and now only has one evening to work on it. Holly shit ... talk about the entitled attitude in students these days. Since when are lectures available after class? Sure, I've done it before, but since when is it an expectation? Take notes ... pay attention ... read the textbook ... and no, I've decided that I'm not posting my lecture materials online because I really don't feel like it. It's many extra hours of work and it's not worth it for me. I think this student thought she could whip off the assignment during lunch at work and now that she has realized it's going to take about 4 hours, she's all upset, but pissing me off is not the solution.


I say give her a "C" at best. Devastating.

Maybe that's too harsh. There was a time in my life where I'd have considered a "B+" the End of the World.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:17 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

zorba wrote:
...
My feeling is that they used a mixture, I can very well imagine Sollecito being the good provider to his American new-found thing, he able easily to buy speed, it being cheap and available but then that they were into partying with those things, it's hardly likely that being willing to take one thing they'd decline another, if willing to have speed they'd have gladly used coke too. I think they used perhaps as many as three substances, XTC, speed and cocaine.

That would explain the way out-ness of their behaviour, the XTC introducing the desire elements- SEX, and the other drugs warping (destroying any good effects of the XTC that could be harmless) things up to hell.

I don't know if you know much about XTC but people high on it often suddenly become people they never knew or thought they were or could be, going home with someone, male or female or a group or having a trio or a four-o whatever that is, anything is possible!

Inhibitions are thrown out of the window.
It's in combination with this (what can be entirely harmless preoccupations because who writes the rule book on what someone should prefer as to amount of sexual partners, or whether everyone should get married and do as the parents did?) and other types of drugs that things might be turned into something warped and nasty.

I think in this case this is what happened and it led to Meredith getting murdered.

Knox and Sollecito were the complete picture of two persons awake all night, entirely in that trip, so much so that they, exhausted after trying to set right as well as possible what they'd done wrong, they not as much supported one another but could do nothing else other than remain in the actual same state they'd been in, where they are then seen kissing and cuddling,

any type of real support like in reaction to the god almighty awful things they'd supposedly just been finding out, entirely lacking.

No sign of usual reactions that's why they appeared perverse, and were PERVERSE.

The reason they appeared/seemed perverse stood there kissing was because they were reacting to nothing, simply because they could not react to things they had full knowledge of already.

There was no surprise, no shocking and horrific surprise, because they were the engineers of the stuff that was being discovered.


Fred Perkins on working out E = bla bla squared fell to his knees my god, look he barked. And why are you not surprised Mr Einstein? Well it's just I already discovered this 10 years before you, that's all, how could I be surprised, I knew it already.


I haven't seen much talk about the possibility that XTC was a factor. Interesting stuff. It really would go a long way toward supporting theories based on the (difficult for me to buy) idea that Knox's sexual desires were a part of what happened to Meredith.

It's a shame the police didn't think to rely on (or were somehow precluded from relying on) the Italian equivalent of the "exigent circumstances" doctrine (assuming such a thing exists) in order to obtain blood and urine samples without a warrant but within the 2 to 5 day time frame required by such drug testing.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:48 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jackie wrote:
zorba wrote:
...
My feeling is that they used a mixture, I can very well imagine Sollecito being the good provider to his American new-found thing, he able easily to buy speed, it being cheap and available but then that they were into partying with those things, it's hardly likely that being willing to take one thing they'd decline another, if willing to have speed they'd have gladly used coke too. I think they used perhaps as many as three substances, XTC, speed and cocaine.

That would explain the way out-ness of their behaviour, the XTC introducing the desire elements- SEX, and the other drugs warping (destroying any good effects of the XTC that could be harmless) things up to hell.

I don't know if you know much about XTC but people high on it often suddenly become people they never knew or thought they were or could be, going home with someone, male or female or a group or having a trio or a four-o whatever that is, anything is possible!

Inhibitions are thrown out of the window.
It's in combination with this (what can be entirely harmless preoccupations because who writes the rule book on what someone should prefer as to amount of sexual partners, or whether everyone should get married and do as the parents did?) and other types of drugs that things might be turned into something warped and nasty.

I think in this case this is what happened and it led to Meredith getting murdered.

Knox and Sollecito were the complete picture of two persons awake all night, entirely in that trip, so much so that they, exhausted after trying to set right as well as possible what they'd done wrong, they not as much supported one another but could do nothing else other than remain in the actual same state they'd been in, where they are then seen kissing and cuddling,

any type of real support like in reaction to the god almighty awful things they'd supposedly just been finding out, entirely lacking.

No sign of usual reactions that's why they appeared perverse, and were PERVERSE.

The reason they appeared/seemed perverse stood there kissing was because they were reacting to nothing, simply because they could not react to things they had full knowledge of already.

There was no surprise, no shocking and horrific surprise, because they were the engineers of the stuff that was being discovered.


Fred Perkins on working out E = bla bla squared fell to his knees my god, look he barked. And why are you not surprised Mr Einstein? Well it's just I already discovered this 10 years before you, that's all, how could I be surprised, I knew it already.


I haven't seen much talk about the possibility that XTC was a factor. Interesting stuff. It really would go a long way toward supporting theories based on the (difficult for me to buy) idea that Knox's sexual desires were a part of what happened to Meredith.

It's a shame the police didn't think to rely on (or were somehow precluded from relying on) the Italian equivalent of the "exigent circumstances" doctrine (assuming such a thing exists) in order to obtain blood and urine samples without a warrant but within the 2 to 5 day time frame required by such drug testing.



Hi Jackie,

Yes, it's not without reason XTC became so popular, as a going out substance/drug, as opposed to LSD and other stuff, XTC far more than any of the others created things/atmospheres/scenes, events/nights that other drugs did not. Part of it is that XTC does, if it is proper XTC, allow people, often, to get closer, perhaps closer to others, or another than they ever did in their lives before.

It sees a guy going home with a nice girl without any of the old-fashioned beer-light nastiness, of clumsiness and wrong behaviour or pushiness and groping behaviour, in as far as pushing things.
XTC actually can allow people to let things just ride, and from that, people are able to get closer to one another, without even trying.

This is ideally speaking/in terms of ideals, but as with everything, people mostly do not manage to treat things moderately, so instead of having that one special experience, people get a taste for it, and as with other things, just want more of that good thing, but the overdoing it soon ruins what was good and people also, many, on XTC, or from the effects of, ended up very depressed, because afterwards, many felt or feel as though they've fallen into a black hole. It was so great, it was so vibrant, so full and then nothing, just emptiness.

I knew of people taking 8 pills at least in an evening, but then there's the coming down or the pills are done, and out comes other stuff.
In the 90's where I was, the after party was followed by the after party, by the after after party, and sometimes, people just stayed up, dancing, whatever, until they were so wasted. I know of some who ended up becoming psychotic.

The parties, well, in it, a big part of it is that women cold really be women, girls, be as beautiful as they are and up front with it, sexual stuff right out in the open and up front and no sense of shame. As sexy as never before and NOT CHEAPLY so either.

Lots of people into lots of kicks, so there's the visual and the sound but taste experiences, and everything else that forms a part of rebelling in a way against the accepted norms, by having lots of pretty tattoos, or piercings, I've been at clubs where shows were going on or things just happened spontaneously, like SM acts too.

Women and not old ones, into that, girls and women all over the place opening showing that they know they are allowed to enjoy their sexuality, and a lot of behaviour that never was possible before, the air & atmosphere filled with sex and sexuality.
All of it ought to be extremely hip but not all of it is, especially when you get people who have something nasty about them and never were part of any good scene or thing and get a whiff of what they think it's all about but then get all kinds of wrong ideas in their heads.

Bari is not very close to Perugia and as far as I'm concerned Sollecito also was a world away from what he really knew.
I'm sure there'plenty of XTC around in Perugia, and that the scene there is just like anywhere these days, where with going out, people do still swallow pills, they might have some coke, but the main outgoing drug is still XTC, it's the party drug the one that gets people mixing, dancing, having fun in the moment, the next days is a different story but people, especially young people don't care about after, when they're out they want it all going on.
It was XTC that shaped the way furniture outside and inside bars now is, because it was this lounging about, this super chilled out what I mentioned above, where the guy who might be like a clumsy lumberjack dumbo before, suddenly is able to let that crap go and is sensitive, talkative but not in a speed-like way, and it's all of these things with XTC that made it so popular, but, it lowered a barrier too, whereas before there were those who used drugs and those who definitely did not, well with XTC all kinds of people started dropping a pill, the ones who were very straight ordinarily, and so because people started using pills they also got involved with different stuff like coke and speed too, and even more, in fact some got involved with everything, and this then saw more drugs being used than ever before and in a very hedonistic way.


The initial good vibes at parties some years back were soon cashed in on and what one gets is a replica of what it really was and is supposed to be all about, commercialized as everything is, with music that's not what it is supposed to be, and all kinds of other fakey shit.
In the end it all becomes simply about drugs and not the good things like the moments people were into really good vibes and dancing and actually being loving.

For me, Knox played games, with her power as a female, in which she would not be unique, women have power luckily not all are nuts like that and misuse it so badly, but I think she played games with Guede, leading him into thinking things that were not as she spun them, like letting him think he had a chance with Meredith.
Sollecito probably wouldn't have liked it but went alone with anything as long as it seemed to him that she was into him, for me he is as spineless as they get.

These are the ingredients, the elements as I feel it, that created a setting that seems hard to grasp but in fact, what went on was not so very complicated at all.

There is simply something very wrong with Knox to start with. I mean, to see her, to feel what she is, I mean, I find her truly scary, and if you consider how her family are, they too are threatening, and creepy like that, intimidating people and so on. And people say they are a so-called decent family, well I think they are very wrong in that.

I know of people with little education, little means and plenty of trouble yet even they would not behave as Knox's lot have done.


My belief is that in the end the truth is going to come out, it has to. There are too many loose ends, it's not just Knox any longer, they've involved themselves in a shocking way, as hardly ever seen, trying force matters, and in so doing, their behaviour mirrors Amanda Knox's exactly.
I mean even Madison Paxton is a scary person. I would not let her anywhere near my family.
One can go on, and each person there has something wrong with them, greatly so.
They can get away with all they've been up to for so and so long but it is going to boomerang them and come right back into their faces.

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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:25 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

capealadin wrote:
Thanks, Jackie :)

Baghdad Bob..always makes me smile...grin. His take on things remind me of so many of the groupies. It didn't work for him or the Regime, won't work for them either. Talk about STIFF UPPER LIP !! :)

I meant to add as well, re my post you responded to. It's sickening the way the VICTIM is denegraded, put in a bad light. Which, btw, Amanda most certainly tried to do, vis a vis her e-mail, posted to HOW MANY people???????:(

And then, what really gets to me. The insults, slurs, attacking John Kercher. They have no shame.

I've come to the conclusion, that most of the groupies are attracted to Amanda, not least because they themselves have no empathy, no limits to socially accepted behaviour. They see themselves in her.

k-(( k-(( k-(( ;)


Cape, the (escalating) attacks on the Kerchers rank with the most revolting human conduct I've ever encountered.

IMHO, Knox's parents are directly responsible: they hired a PR firm well-versed in the tactics/ dirty tricks employed during American political campaigns, either knowing ab initio that this would entail the vilification of the Kerchers, or turning a blind eye to the tactic when it began in earnest during the course of this appeal.

That this should happen to a family as horribly wounded yet dignified, graceful and restrained as the Kerchers is truly beneath contempt.

Evidently, Knox's parents feel that 'ANYTHING goes' so long as it's done in the defense of their child. "Wouldn't you do ANYTHING you could to protect your child?" is a common refrain. Edda is a Mother Bear, Amanda is her cub. Fine. The Mother Bear Doctrine is great...if we want to live like ANIMALS instead of HUMAN BEINGS.

Someone needs to remind Edda that the POINT of the CIVILIZED SOCIETY that Amanda wishes to return to is to REJECT amoral, irrational ANIMAL behavior of this kind lest we return to a 'state of nature' where fairness, justice, morality, ethics, reason, logic, equality, altruism, the rule of law and basic HUMAN decency have no place.

I wonder how long would men like Curt, Chris and Mr. Marriott would last under the law of the jungle. My guess is you throw those winners into a 'Mad Max' World, and their skulls would be hood ornaments before sundown on Day 1.



PS Look what I found at JLOL while trying to find info on the hair tests for narcotics (they're onto us Cape!):

18th September 2011, 06:30 PM #5712
js202
New Blood

Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 10

Originally Posted by Rolfe
No, I mean the love-in between capealadin and Jackie.

J: I love to see you work those disingenuous bastards into a frenzy. How do you do it?! You NEVER resort to their underhanded tactics! It's beautiful! There's just something about you. It's as though they NEED your approval.

C: I come from a place, inside me, that cries out for justice. .. There is a certainty, for me, that the right people are in prison. An absolute certainty.

It's just so refreshing to see such incisive assessment of the evidence and the issues in the case, all conducted with a dispassionately open mind.... not. Worth bearing in mind when capealadin comes back to post here.


...

Now if only the two of them together could formulate one coherent thought, they would truly be dangerous.




PPS You know, Cape, I thought our meeting in Cali might involve the beach, the waves, maybe a spinello, some bad decisions ;-)

Who knew it could "truly be dangerous"?!
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Offline stint7


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:58 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jackie wrote:
Jester wrote:
It was definitely a beast, one that I wouldn't meet with again. I suspect that Knox and Sollecito, who both stated after the fact that they were swearing off drugs after Nov 1, had also met a beast that put them in an over-the-top frame of mind.


Yes, it IS odd that they'd both be swearing off drugs for good after an evening that entailed just one or two joints.

Another example of the horrible truth slipping out in dribs and drabs.


Absolutely.

The FOAKer Groupies' Marriott managed talking points about two "kids" smoked a joint or two...so what...is as usual terribly misleading.

Sollecito was known by his hometown Bari Polizia as a heavy drug user.
People who use crack also use a 'pipe', and Sollecito said to his Father he would never use his 'pipe' again
Sollecito himself says he was high 80% of his waking hours
Knox even writes this about Sollecito:
“According to Amanda’s prison diaries, Raf been reminiscing about his incredible highs on heroin and cocaine…” (Barbie Nadeau, Angel Face, page 163).

People who smoke one joint are not conveniently unable to remember much about a murder they were involved.
People who smoke one joint are not high "80% of their waking hours"
Yes, as you so accurately observe........
People who smoke an occasional joint do not usually find it necessary to "swear off drugs"
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Some guesswork going on at TJMK as to what psychological issues may have played a part in the crime. Was Amanda bi-sexual, and had an attraction for Meredith? My reply:

"Since we know nothing about Amanda Knox's medical history, everything said here is speculation based on the public record.

The Massei trial and conviction was based on forensic evidence, cellphone records, the falsified break in and alibis, the clean up attempts, the behavior of the defendants..

The Appeals court, despite all the rumours, cannot just overturn the evidence and acquit. That would be a perverse judgment.

So what we have left, while we wait for the final days of the trial, is to speculate on motive. When I said I felt Amanda had an attraction for Meredith it was not to imply she was bi-sexual.

As I said I have no evidence for that. But, based on her behaviours, her need to dominate a crowd, to be the center of attention, shows a narcisstic personality (millions of us have it, unfortunately)

Faced with an obviously gifted individual like Meredith, the need to compete, to get her approval, to not be outshone by her, would all war within her psyche. That she was about to lose her job, and that Lumumba was going to hire Meredith, raise all sorts of flags. Her family dynamic with Curt and Edda may also have played a part. I see a more comfortable relationship with her father, a complex one with Edda. Whether jealousy played a part, or there were other factors, we can only guess at.

Meredith was older, and more mature. At what point attraction crosses over to sexual feelings, or whether it is always underlying, is a debate for the psychologist in us. It certainly explains why this case holds such fascination for so many obviously intelligent individuals.

But I will say this. The nature of the sexual violence committed on Meredith Kercher reveals, in my mind, the sexual undercurrents that lie deep within the psyche of Amanda Knox"
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Funny, I may have stirred up the whole drug testing thing on JLOL by asking questions on the sister site, but here's what I found: according to this site the hair analysis on the suspects may have been conducted too early to provide meaningful results http://www.omegalabs.net/abouthairtesti ... ngfaq.aspx

(emphasis mine)

8. How soon after use can a drug be detected in hair?
It takes approximately 4-5 days from the time of drug use for the affected hair to grow above the scalp.
Body hair growth rates are generally slower and cannot be utilized to determine a timeframe of drug use.

9. What is the shortest time period that can be evaluated?
The minimum time period is approximately two weeks (1/4 inch)
.

I was going by my recollection from Angel Face or Darkness Descending that the hair anaysis was conducted after they were arrested, on November 6 or 8.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Yes, what Machine just stated (over der) in his/her machine-like and usual way, that nothing drug- related except for the few weed plants was found at the cottage, and not at Guede or Sollecito's place, is no proof that they did not have and use drugs. In certain countries we ceremoniously destroyed all evidence as we went (this included life in London), even if only a smoked joint, knowing not to allow ashtrays to fill up, to always be ready and not to have stuff lying around that could cause you to end up arrested and in jail if the police did drop in uninvited as they mostly do, not having manners that way, why they even come pre-breakfast hours and dinner time, how convenient for them and inconvenient for those being examined.

If they the killers used coke (and other), I expect they'd have been tidy coke users, not leaving stuff around, getting rid of wrappers immediately, after all, it was Italy where they resided and not Amsterdam where people do pretty much what they like without worrying, certainly as far as own use goes.

No ma'am, lack of drug evidence means nothing.
Any amount larger than is immediately consumable in the event of a raid, would have been stashed by Sollecito, stashed down along the way between Knox's place and his own, buried under the the soil under a tree somewhere, dead easy to do there. That's probably where those keys are lying around waiting to be found too, in no way would it surprise me for the Italian police did not do a multi-sweep, you know, like as is seen in cases where they are searching for evidence and walk, in a long chain, combing out the area for the smallest piece of evidence. They failed to do this there, it wouldn't be the easiest place to do it because it's so hilly, but I reckon more could have been done. They threw those phones away like that, my idea is that the keys are there somewhere too, and if Knox and Sollecito's DNA are found on them, oh dear, will their champion cause carriers say it is too long ago?

His sister was the police after all, and so he wouldn't have been sat around with multiple lines of coke laid out on mirrors, looking like Paddington or Euston train station.

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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jackie ,

Yes. I saw that our posts were transported. It must've hit a nerve. ( Hence my kissy emoticons and wink ). sun-)

Beach, waves, spinello, bad decisions? I KNEW IT !! Mad, bad, and DANGEROUS to know. ( Caro Lamb). ff)

So, Amanda must be busy getting ready for * THE SPONTANEOUS *declaration. A to do list.

1) Kleenex..........check.

2) Mask of an assassin........check.

3) Italian gestures..............check.

4) Convincing ( ?) little breaks in voice.......check

5) Musn't forget..* Meredith was my FRIEND*.........check.

6) I want to live, and some more along that vein..........check

7) Look imploringly at Patrick.......check.

Loving looks at Edda, Curt, AND CRISPY CREAM CHRIS. pig-)

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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:34 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jackie wrote:
Michael wrote:
Jackie wrote:
K & S tested positive for an unidentified "narcotic" via a hair test, correct?


I don't believe they were ever drug tested Jackie. Or at least, if they were, the result of any such drug test was never made public. If it was, I missed it.


I wonder where I read it...

There was a discussion about drug testing. IIRC, someone was claiming that blood and/or urine testing was not done because the metabolites of cocaine would have been eliminated by the time S & K had become suspects/ given the police probable cause/ RPG for a warrant (they have 2 to 5 days max with those 2 tests, I believe), so a hair test was done and it detected a trace of "narcotic" too small to be identified. Apparently, this result was consistent with a one time use of cocaine but might also have been caused by cannabis alone or some other drug or combination of drugs.

Now where did I read this??? I'm too fried to look it up now. Long day.


The Machine reminded me where I first read about it - Nadeau's book:

"...As for Amanda and Raf, when they were finally arrested, on November 6, only the slightest trace of narcotics was found through hair samples - not even enough to identifiy the substance..."


Is this result not consistent with a one time/ short time use of cocaine on November 1?

Could speed or XTC cause this result?

Is cannabis alone enough to cause this result?
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 4:13 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

capealadin wrote:
...
Beach, waves, spinello, bad decisions? I KNEW IT !! Mad, bad, and DANGEROUS to know. ( Caro Lamb). ff)
...


Nah, I'm all talk, Cape. Nowhere near Lord Byron's league. Perfectly harmless. 8-)

And I think you're absolutely right - Knox is probably relishing the chance to attempt another ridiculous/ inappropriate/ awkward/ stilted 'flourish'. "The mask of an assassin forced upon me"... No wonder Maresca leaves the room! I think it's not just a genuine response to Knox's nauseating BS but a clever response to the limitations imposed on him: If you can't let the triers know what to make of a spontaneous declaration by cross-examining the accused, let them know via your body language/ exit from the room. Maresca impresses me.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 4:17 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Tests on hair don't show anything until after 5 days, according to what I just read

If I had been policeman there, I would have had them up as suspects fast,
if only to be able to carry out drug tests via blood samples and alcohol tests too
to find out that much at least about them!

In the cold,
they stood
OUTSIDE, the murder was real and had taken place
INSIDE

The warmth of indoors had no appeal, they needed to be outside, sharing coats, Knox with Sollecito's coat on, he with a scarf on that to me looked more like something to hide behind, Sollecito wished he was a Muslim woman in a burka, they couldn't look properly, the only way Knox was able to manage it and having to look the police in the face was by talk talk talking, they both did that, the over-helpfulness. I listened to Sollecito and the intonation, the lack of inflectiion in his voice, when making the first call to the police, he was not alarmed at all, his entire tone was one of let me explain. He carried on with that too, explaining everything, things that they as police are used to working out for themselves, when people are that over-helpful as he was, bells start a-ringing in experienced police people's heads, for sure.

He explained about smashed windows, he explains about blood but his voice is all on the same flat plateau of extremely well-considered careful wording and full of control.

He acted as if he was not quite alarmed because in his mind he imagined if he did sound alarmed he'd give away that he knew something real bad had happened so rather than run the risk of having anyone think that of him, he went the other way, explaining it as though he were buying cheese and milk at the local shop, very relaxed and helpful, just matter of factly, but no emotions, no inflection, no rising and falling of his voice at all.

In being afraid to show he knew anything for fear of running the risk of coming across as alarmed, he ended up giving the game away anyway, because if your girlfriend's place had been burgled and she had run the risk of heavens knows what happening to her, because that is what you'd think about your girlfriend, you'd think wow, if she'd gone home alone she might have had something bad happen to her, and you'd be like phew, that was lucky but what now? And he had absolutely none of that at all.

O the window is broken, O and there's blood and O nothing has been stolen and O do I sound very unalarmed officer,
No, I do not sound alarmed at all officer do I, I know I don't.. I wouldn't want you thinking I thought something real bad had happened, for I think it'll be far nicer (convenient) for you to find out yourself.
I'm entirely unalarmed, I'm entirely free of worry,
I must be truly thick then, surely, if I had been for real I'd be thinking, damn what is this, it's not safe for her to be here if things like this happen!
I don't like it.

You'd be talking to the police, not dictating to them what must have happened but more like a chicken without a head trying to get some reason from them, some sense.

Sollecito, what did he do?
he stood there kissing and cuddling Knox like it was her who had suffered,

he did not comfort her as in god how awful, your very own housemate,
the girl who you were so friendly with.

No he didn't because it simply was not like that at all.

The reason Knox shows no empathy, and cannot even fake it if she tried is because there was such a disagreement that it led to them killing Meredith,

and you do not just change then, afterwards,

even if someone dies,

if someone dies at your hands, that is a result of you, and you were so screwed up in the first place to be doing that to someone,

the anger does not subside and it still hasn't,

Knox does not care about what happened to Meredith,

she doesn't for she has a secret, about what it was all about in the first place,
and that has not changed.

Meredith is dead and so cannot ever have the opportunity to confront Knox.

Knox having gotten rid of Meredith, thinks it was Meredith's fault, she knows it was not, but as a result of the things they did, she and the others, they are now changed people.

Sollecito and Knox fed on one another.

Murdering Meredith has made them feel powerful.

It is not something that has made (certainly not Knox) them feel bad, or regret, not for what they did to Meredith, only insofar as it means they are locked away,

but the more they think they can fool everyone and that nobody can figure it out,
the more it inspires Knox to laugh as she does in court, the type of laughs and weird looks they are exchanging, is to my mind a result of Knox being aware of the spell they share, just as Knox is playing all of those games, she is also well-aware that Sollecito is doing exactly the same thing.

And that is what keeps her going. These things are all they have. The feeding on one another.

They fed on one another's ill, and are still feeding on one another.

Nothing has changed at all within them, nothing, everything is exactly as it was the night Meredith died.

There are no lengths to which they will not go, again, certainly as far as Knox is concerned,
everything she does is as salt in wounds,
like, for imtance, this latest crap about going and helping people.

So it's not enough that she murdered Meredith, destroyed the minds and hearts of Meredith's family and those too of her own family; no matter how bad the latter behave, still it is Knox's responsibility after all, for without her lies they would never have become so twisted and deceitful, it's an extreme situation and her actions have radicalised her family and brought the worst out in them.

It's not enough, she has to go on and make out she is going to be some kind of champion of those wrongly accused, when all the time, she actually committed murder.

The Italians are far too kind and trusting

The three of them were off their faces.

The very idea that they can do this and get away with it is really exciting Knox, it's making her worse, it's making her feel powerful.
They are like a pair of dogs that have tasted blood.

They know now what it is to kill a person, the idea in mind that you can rule over others, knowing you can do this and nobody can stand in your way.
That's what it feels like to them.

If they get away with it, they are going to love it.
I see it written in Knoxs facial gestures, the idea that she could get away with murder, that others could tell her (like her family do), no you did not do it, when she damned well did, that is giving her an enormous kick. A twisted kick.

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Last edited by zorba on Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:14 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 4:30 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Ergon wrote:
...
8. How soon after use can a drug be detected in hair?
It takes approximately 4-5 days from the time of drug use for the affected hair to grow above the scalp.
Body hair growth rates are generally slower and cannot be utilized to determine a timeframe of drug use.

9. What is the shortest time period that can be evaluated?
The minimum time period is approximately two weeks (1/4 inch)
...


murder = Nov 1

hair test = Nov 6 (per Nadeau)

That's barely 5 days.

Why not use the blood and urine tests as well (the range there is 2 to 5 days)???

And why not give the scalp hair an extra day (or two or three) to grow? Seems they were barely giving the hair enough time to grow out. The hair that would reveal the drugs used on Nov 1 might still have been below the surface of the scalp on Nov 6.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:18 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

The police simply couldn't grasp what exactly it was they were dealing with as regards levels of depravity but I think they ought to have been harder on them, in as much as getting those tests done, I'd have had it done that very morning. It was too weird that they were stood there.
I guess it was just a lot to deal with, the crimes were horrific.

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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:35 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Ergon wrote:
Some guesswork going on at TJMK as to what psychological issues may have played a part in the crime. Was Amanda bi-sexual, and had an attraction for Meredith? My reply:

"Since we know nothing about Amanda Knox's medical history, everything said here is speculation based on the public record.

The Massei trial and conviction was based on forensic evidence, cellphone records, the falsified break in and alibis, the clean up attempts, the behavior of the defendants..

The Appeals court, despite all the rumours, cannot just overturn the evidence and acquit. That would be a perverse judgment.

So what we have left, while we wait for the final days of the trial, is to speculate on motive. When I said I felt Amanda had an attraction for Meredith it was not to imply she was bi-sexual.

As I said I have no evidence for that. But, based on her behaviours, her need to dominate a crowd, to be the center of attention, shows a narcisstic personality (millions of us have it, unfortunately)

Faced with an obviously gifted individual like Meredith, the need to compete, to get her approval, to not be outshone by her, would all war within her psyche. That she was about to lose her job, and that Lumumba was going to hire Meredith, raise all sorts of flags. Her family dynamic with Curt and Edda may also have played a part. I see a more comfortable relationship with her father, a complex one with Edda. Whether jealousy played a part, or there were other factors, we can only guess at.

Meredith was older, and more mature. At what point attraction crosses over to sexual feelings, or whether it is always underlying, is a debate for the psychologist in us. It certainly explains why this case holds such fascination for so many obviously intelligent individuals.

But I will say this. The nature of the sexual violence committed on Meredith Kercher reveals, in my mind, the sexual undercurrents that lie deep within the psyche of Amanda Knox"


I wouldn't put the need to compete together with get approval. I think that Knox did compete with Meredith because she saw something in her that Knox could never be. Meredith was in a music video, so Knox decided to script one. That's Knox competing with Meredith, still today. Meredith is soft, angelic and somehow wise in her music video. What will Knox be, or portray, in her music video. Did Knox ever see the video that Meredith is in? I don't think that Knox so much wanted Meredith's approval, but moreso that she wanted to outdo her, push her down, put her in her place, make her like Knox ... broken, hooking up with any man that looked at her, sleeping with two or three guys while claiming that she had a boyfriend in Australia. There was a huge difference between Meredith and Knox in everything from morals and ethics to abilities to charm to natural warmth.

I should say ... right here ... that of course I am speculating. I have never met any of the parties in this murder, but I have formed opinions based on what I've read, heard and seen.

As I was saying, of all the things that Knox, that odd creative writer, could creatively write and mail out of prison is a music video script. It was not a poem or a limeric, not a short story or an essay, not a novel or a comic, but a music video script. I can hardly wait to see what it is. The Mistral? Is that Knox who blew in from the North? Ice in her veins? She can't compete with Meredith, not even after she murdered her. She doesn't want her approval, she wants to be her by any means necessary ... like a cheap rip-off of someone's personality.

I don't see that as a mental illness, moreso a personality disorder. Antisocial Personality Disorder? Something like that.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:43 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Antisocial Personality Disorder

Antisocial personality disorder symptoms may include:

Disregard for right and wrong
Persistent lying or deceit
Using charm or wit to manipulate others
Recurring difficulties with the law
Repeatedly violating the rights of others
Child abuse or neglect
Intimidation of others
Aggressive or violent behavior
Lack of remorse about harming others
Impulsive behavior
Agitation
Poor or abusive relationships
Irresponsible work behavior

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/antiso ... N=symptoms

Further research suggests that Antisocial Personality Disorder with a sexual twist to the murder is known as Malignant Narcissism.

How many of those can we associate with Knox?
All of them?

Disregard for right and wrong: left Patrick in jail for 2 weeks
Persistent lying or deceit: lied about Patrick and persistently remained silent about that lie
Using charm or wit to manipulate others: dressing like a tart in court
Recurring difficulties with the law: both in Seattle and Perugia
Repeatedly violating the rights of others: Patrick, probably knew that Meredith was more modest but left her vibrator lying around anyway
Child abuse or neglect: her father did leave the family when she was less than 2 years old
Intimidation of others: how did she get into Sollecito's bed so fast?
Aggressive or violent behavior: wasn't she climbing the bars in prison like a monkey, singing at the top of her lungs, defiant in court?
Lack of remorse about harming others: no remorse for the loss to Meredith's family.
Impulsive behavior: burst out in song during dinner, flipped a couple of cartwheels, did the splits, hook ups and so on
Agitation: all those lies about coercion happening in 2 or "54" hours, beginning shortly after she'd had dinner
Poor or abusive relationships: relationships we're not as would be expected ... boyfriend in Australia, boyfriend in Perugia, sleeping with the guy downstairs ... abusive?
Irresponsible work behavior: we heard from Patrick that he had to speak to her more than once about flirting with the customers


OT: Zorba, thanks for the "dictatorial" remark. It was all I needed to turn my head around in the right direction and do whatever I wanted. Their way was like multitasking to the point where it was impossible to concentrate on any one thing, like what I'm saying. I pointed the camera at the chair in front of the computer, and then did my own thing. Worked much better for the students in the class and me.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:04 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Doesn't he look serious (with that crooked little mouth for a crooked little man), for a casual witness that had met Meredith fewer times than Knox met Guede. Knox mimics with a blank stare - probably already thinking about that music piece, or music script, she could write now that she knows someone that was murdered. She's not dying for a pizza yet, like she was after arriving at the police station, or when she was questioned for two hours prior to her change of status to "suspect", but she is thinking about something.



How odd that Knox was excitedly claiming, imediately after the murder was discovered, that she wanted to write a song because she never knew anyone that was murdered before, and last weekend we heard that Knox has written a music script for a band that has visited her prison three times.

The video is due to be released in October, probably timed to be released with the hopeful reversal of her verdict. If it's not overturned, how does it relate to the proceeds from all the hits on youtube and other distributions? If the verdict is overturned, can Sollecito be similarly whisked out of the country? Someone mentioned ankle bracelets (to keep them in the country) if the verdict is overturned but the proceedings are not fully concluded (Supreme Court). It's a pivotal point in the trial. If Knox retains the label of murderer, will the US media continue to make her into their darling murderer abroad or will they close the door on her and accept that justice has spoken. I suspect that no matter what the ruling, the US media will continue to skew the facts to paint their own murderer abroad as a victim.
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:39 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

I personally don't think Amanda needed any drugs, to do what she did. She was feeling pretty high about herself. Thought she was the bees knees. UNTIL, she got to know the real thing. Mez. Mez, effortlessly charming, had been in a rock video, popular, well spoken, studious but fun. Even looked good in her boyfriends jeans. Wasn't looking for a job, but was offered one by Patrick.

Amanda's gauche * oopla's *, shagging on the train, sex within hours of meeting Raf.........In HER mind, she was the femme fatale. And, then she did become THE fatal woman.

Patrick said it best when he said: Amanda is not evil. To be evil, you need a soul, and Amanda doesn't have one. He talks about how furious Amanda was, when he told her he was giving Mez the job.

No, she didn't need drugs. This was a woman with jealousy issues, rejection played a big part, as well. So much so, that I mentioned a while ago to Stint, that I have given some thought as to whether Amanda was attracted sexually to Mez. Mez was avoiding her. Something a little off with her friendship with Maddie as well.

My only point about this, is it may help to get a grasp about just what was going on with her at this time.

I think about her rape story. Pretty unusual for a woman to write about that I think. Men who rape, usually it's about power. When one thinks rape, that's predominantly in a man's psyche. Very , very strange.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:59 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Knox: innocent abroad or ‘getting away with murder’?

There may be just enough reasonable doubt to convince a jury that Amanda Knox should be freed

By Andrea Vogt

LAST UPDATED 7:47 AM, SEPTEMBER 21, 2011


THE FIRST POST

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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

capealadin wrote:

So, Amanda must be busy getting ready for * THE SPONTANEOUS *declaration. A to do list.

1) Kleenex..........check.

2) Mask of an assassin........check.

3) Italian gestures..............check.

4) Convincing ( ?) little breaks in voice.......check

5) Musn't forget..* Meredith was my FRIEND*.........check.

6) I want to live, and some more along that vein..........check

7) Look imploringly at Patrick.......check.

Loving looks at Edda, Curt, AND CRISPY CREAM CHRIS. pig-)



8) Thank the prosecutors because "I know they're only trying to do their job".

Didn't she say something like that in her last Oscar speech?
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
Knox: innocent abroad or ‘getting away with murder’?

There may be just enough reasonable doubt to convince a jury that Amanda Knox should be freed

By Andrea Vogt

LAST UPDATED 7:47 AM, SEPTEMBER 21, 2011


THE FIRST POST


Many seem convinced that Amanda Knox will be the next OJ or Casey Anthony. I wonder what "observers" Andrea Vogt was talking about? Just people from the street or legal experts?

I will have to accept whatever the court decides, but based on the evidence there is nothing and no one who can convince me Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are innocent. My heart goes out to the Kercher family. If Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are convicted, they will get a rather light sentence, while the Kercher's have been handed life sentences. If they are acquitted, they will laugh in the Kercher's faces and go on with their money making media campaign without any regard for the life they have taken and the grief they have caused.

I have gotten to a point where only a long prison sentence would satisfy me, everything else seems unfair. A long prison sentence doesn't seem to be a possibility anymore. No matter how you look at it, there won't be any justice for Meredith Kercher and her family, I am afraid.
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Offline BellaDonna


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Ava wrote:
capealadin wrote:

So, Amanda must be busy getting ready for * THE SPONTANEOUS *declaration. A to do list.

1) Kleenex..........check.

2) Mask of an assassin........check.

3) Italian gestures..............check.

4) Convincing ( ?) little breaks in voice.......check

5) Musn't forget..* Meredith was my FRIEND*.........check.

6) I want to live, and some more along that vein..........check

7) Look imploringly at Patrick.......check.

Loving looks at Edda, Curt, AND CRISPY CREAM CHRIS. pig-)



8) Thank the prosecutors because "I know they're only trying to do their job".

Didn't she say something like that in her last Oscar speech?


Perhaps a few mamma mia's thrown in for good measure?
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:58 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Amanda Knox appeals trial enters final stretch
By Philip Pullella, Reuters

Last Updated: September 21, 2011 8:48am


LONDON FREE PRESS

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

BellaDonna wrote:
Perhaps a few mamma mia's thrown in for good measure?



Hi BellaDonna, nice to see you! :)

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Offline BellaDonna


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Nell wrote:
Michael wrote:
Knox: innocent abroad or ‘getting away with murder’?

There may be just enough reasonable doubt to convince a jury that Amanda Knox should be freed

By Andrea Vogt

LAST UPDATED 7:47 AM, SEPTEMBER 21, 2011


THE FIRST POST


Many seem convinced that Amanda Knox will be the next OJ or Casey Anthony. I wonder what "observers" Andrea Vogt was talking about? Just people from the street or legal experts?

I will have to accept whatever the court decides, but based on the evidence there is nothing and no one who can convince me Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are innocent. My heart goes out to the Kercher family. If Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are convicted, they will get a rather light sentence, while the Kercher's have been handed life sentences. If they are acquitted, they will laugh in the Kercher's faces and go on with their money making media campaign without any regard for the life they have taken and the grief they have caused.

I have gotten to a point where only a long prison sentence would satisfy me, everything else seems unfair. A long prison sentence doesn't seem to be a possibility anymore. No matter how you look at it, there won't be any justice for Meredith Kercher and her family, I am afraid.


But if she is acquitted (and I sincerely hope not), there will always be a veil of suspicion hanging over her. She'll never be able to go back to a normal life. Once all of the appearances and interviews have happened and the press have moved on, she will find it very difficult to adjust to finding a job, friends etc. I wouldn't envy that at all.

I don't know about Raffaele. Perhaps he'll adjust better because they'll be less media attention on him.

I don't believe that anyone is evil, just that people are sometimes capable of evil acts. So I hope, whatever the verdict, that these three can be rehabilitated. And that the Kerchers can find peace once its all over.

Regardless of what happens, there will never be 'true' justice for Meredith and no-one will be celebrating at the end of the appeal.
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Offline BellaDonna


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
BellaDonna wrote:
Perhaps a few mamma mia's thrown in for good measure?



Hi BellaDonna, nice to see you! :)


Thanks Michael! It's nice to be back. I'm nursing a dislocated shoulder and a large glass of wine and thought I'd catch up on the latest happenings. Hope you're well x
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:14 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

BellaDonna wrote:
But if she is acquitted (and I sincerely hope not), there will always be a veil of suspicion hanging over her. She'll never be able to go back to a normal life. Once all of the appearances and interviews have happened and the press have moved on, she will find it very difficult to adjust to finding a job, friends etc. I wouldn't envy that at all.

I don't know about Raffaele. Perhaps he'll adjust better because they'll be less media attention on him.

I don't believe that anyone is evil, just that people are sometimes capable of evil acts. So I hope, whatever the verdict, that these three can be rehabilitated. And that the Kerchers can find peace once its all over.

Regardless of what happens, there will never be 'true' justice for Meredith and no-one will be celebrating at the end of the appeal.



I don't know about rehabilitation. Some people cannot be rehabilitated. I don't know if that's true for them or not. I am against lenient sentences. The punishment should fit the crime. Relatively short sentences for murderers are inappropriate in my opinion.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

BellaDonna wrote:
Michael wrote:
BellaDonna wrote:
Perhaps a few mamma mia's thrown in for good measure?



Hi BellaDonna, nice to see you! :)


Thanks Michael! It's nice to be back. I'm nursing a dislocated shoulder and a large glass of wine and thought I'd catch up on the latest happenings. Hope you're well x


I'm well, thank you :) Sorry to hear about the shoulder. I hope it isn't causing too much discomfort.

What a coincidence...I'm having a glass of wine too :)

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

BellaDonna wrote:
But if she is acquitted (and I sincerely hope not), there will always be a veil of suspicion hanging over her. She'll never be able to go back to a normal life. Once all of the appearances and interviews have happened and the press have moved on, she will find it very difficult to adjust to finding a job, friends etc. I wouldn't envy that at all.



The Kerchers might also have the option of taking a private suit out against her in the States, ala O J Simpson.

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Offline BellaDonna


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
BellaDonna wrote:
But if she is acquitted (and I sincerely hope not), there will always be a veil of suspicion hanging over her. She'll never be able to go back to a normal life. Once all of the appearances and interviews have happened and the press have moved on, she will find it very difficult to adjust to finding a job, friends etc. I wouldn't envy that at all.



The Kerchers might also have the option of taking a private suit out against her in the States, ala O J Simpson.


That is purely financial in outcome isn't it? If they do that, I assume they have to prove her guilt all over again? Could they do the same to Raffaele in Italy?
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Yes. But that really wouldn't be the purpose. The purpose would be so that society would then consider her 'guilty', rather then innocent. She would be 'legally' guilty. It would also stop her from profiting from it. They would have to demonstrate her guilt, but the level of proof required in a civil proceeding is a lot lower then in a criminal proceeding.

They wouldn't have that option for Raffaele, since Italy doesn't have a separate civil process...certainly not for murder.

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Offline BellaDonna


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 4:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
Yes. But that really wouldn't be the purpose. The purpose would be so that society would then consider her 'guilty', rather then innocent. She would be 'legally' guilty. It would also stop her from profiting from it. They would have to demonstrate her guilt, but the level of proof required in a civil proceeding is a lot lower then in a criminal proceeding.

They wouldn't have that option for Raffaele, since Italy doesn't have a separate civil process...certainly not for murder.


I see. I had no idea that option was available to them. If that happened and they were successful, that would stop the talk about the Italian justice system being corrupt or inferior to the US system.

Let's hope it doesn't come to that.

A friend of mine went to university with Louise Woodward (the British Au pair accused of shaking a baby to death in the US in 1997). He studied law alongside her and saw that Louise was treated very warily, teased and one student asked to be moved away from her in student halls. She was sometimes treated aggressively by others and must have had a miserable time. Even now, many years on, I read that she was planning a baby which will bring with it a new wealth of press articles about her.

It don't imagine it will be a bed of roses for Amanda either.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 4:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

BellaDonna wrote:
A friend of mine went to university with Louise Woodward (the British Au pair accused of shaking a baby to death in the US in 1997). He studied law alongside her and saw that Louise was treated very warily, teased and one student asked to be moved away from her in student halls. She was sometimes treated aggressively by others and must have had a miserable time. Even now, many years on, I read that she was planning a baby which will bring with it a new wealth of press articles about her.

It don't imagine it will be a bed of roses for Amanda either.



Maybe. But, the thing is with Louise Woodward, is afterwards she kept her head down and just tried to carry on with a normal 'real' life...a lot of people won't allow that, as they can't get past what they did, or at least, 'may' have done. I suspect a different life is being planned out for Knox (and she will find it hard to say no as those doing the planning are people she will feel she owes...or at least, her parents owe). I can see her taking the chat show circuit and maybe from there moving into the 'reality celeb' circuit ('Celebrity Big Brother'...'I'm a Celebrity, Get Me Out of Here'...) and in doing that, people will quickly forget about her as someone who stood accused of a brutal murder, but as a C list celeb. Playboy is already standing by to make her an offer for a spread and that's just the start. And let's face it, the US media has been working very hard to ensure that she's welcomed back with open arms, pushing the 'innocent abroad' crap, paving the way for that destiny. They don't see her as just a good story for the 'now', but as a long-term investment.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

I'll say this; Knox's family hired a PR firm. If Knox gets out...'she' will be hiring an agent.

There's already a queue for the job.

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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
I'll say this; Knox's family hired a PR firm. If Knox gets out...'she' will be hiring an agent.

There's already a queue for the job.


It's funny how it's so easy to predict what could happen ... it's another Casey Anthony situation. Most often when someone is found not guilty of murder, or their verdict is overturned on appeal, life goes on. When it comes to young women from the US that everyone is rather convinced are guilty of murder, a not guilty verdict turns them into celebrities.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 6:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jester wrote:
Michael wrote:
I'll say this; Knox's family hired a PR firm. If Knox gets out...'she' will be hiring an agent.

There's already a queue for the job.


It's funny how it's so easy to predict what could happen ... it's another Casey Anthony situation. Most often when someone is found not guilty of murder, or their verdict is overturned on appeal, life goes on. When it comes to young women from the US that everyone is rather convinced are guilty of murder, a not guilty verdict turns them into celebrities.



It also helps when the media has deemed them to be 'hot'. The papers say they are, so they 'must' be. That makes them a media commodity and commodities have value. Brand Knox.

And that's something else that differs to Louise Woodward...nobody ever labeled her as hot...least of all as 'Foxy'. It's the sex thing...and that sells. And that's Knox's future, just like her parents' present...to become a media whore to the likes of Vegas. Edda thinks she's her friend. It's just business. The friendship will last only as long as the copy (or its promise) does.

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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
Jester wrote:
Michael wrote:
I'll say this; Knox's family hired a PR firm. If Knox gets out...'she' will be hiring an agent.

There's already a queue for the job.


It's funny how it's so easy to predict what could happen ... it's another Casey Anthony situation. Most often when someone is found not guilty of murder, or their verdict is overturned on appeal, life goes on. When it comes to young women from the US that everyone is rather convinced are guilty of murder, a not guilty verdict turns them into celebrities.



It also helps when the media has deemed them to be 'hot'. The papers say they are, so they 'must' be. That makes them a media commodity and commodities have value. Brand Knox.

And that's something else that differs to Louise Woodward...nobody ever labeled her as hot...least of all as 'Foxy'. It's the sex thing...and that sells. And that's Knox's future, just like her parents' present...to become a media whore to the likes of Vegas. Edda thinks she's her friend. It's just business. The friendship will last only as long as the copy (or its promise) does.


I must have different ideas about attractiveness because Casey Anthony, in my opinion, is a dog. Knox isn't a dog, but she's plain ... and there is that old saying about if you want to know what a young woman will look like in a few years, have a look at mom. Seems to me that Knox has a size 24 in her future. Nubiles have had their place throughout the centuries as muses, in art ... today's fashion ... but the lifespan of a nubile is short.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

'We' don't decide what is attractive. The media does that for us. It's all laid on.

Personally, I don't think great big haired blonds with massive fake tits, nose jobs and a photo portfolio taken in soft focus are all that attractive. Yet, it doesn't stop the media and pornographers shoving them down our throats to insist that 'is' what is attractive. These days it's all a dictatorship, not only politically but of 'thought'....'this' is what you should like, 'this' is what is attractive, 'this' is what is cool. And people buy it, just like it was the latest pair of designer Nikes.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
BellaDonna wrote:
Michael wrote:
BellaDonna wrote:
Perhaps a few mamma mia's thrown in for good measure?



Hi BellaDonna, nice to see you! :)


Thanks Michael! It's nice to be back. I'm nursing a dislocated shoulder and a large glass of wine and thought I'd catch up on the latest happenings. Hope you're well x


I'm well, thank you :) Sorry to hear about the shoulder. I hope it isn't causing too much discomfort.

What a coincidence...I'm having a glass of wine too :)


Me too! :)
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Offline Tiziano


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 - Closing arguments   

lagoccia



Meredith Murder: The Perugia Prosecutor's Office aims for the strengthening of the sentences for Amanda and Raffaele.

The exclusion of the generic extenuating circumstances granted in the first trial and the recognition of the aggravating circumstances of futile motives. A framework which could even lead to the request for life sentences.

The closing arguments of the prosecution, will involve all three magistrates who worked on the trial: Giancarlo Costagliola, Giuliano Mignini and Manuela Comodi.

Comodi will be the one to demolish the conclusions of the experts appointed by the Appeals Court, who claimed that the DNA examination of the knife of the crime and the bra clasp of the the English student were "not reliable".

In order to obtain the confirmation of the responsibility of AK & RS, the magistrates will also point to other evidence: the bloody footprints, witness accounts, especially that of the homeless man and the neighbour who heard the scream and sound of footsteps coming from the cottage. At the centre of the arguments will be the simulated theft in the room of one of the co-tenants, and Knox's initial declarations accusing Lumumba. The declarations of Guede will also be used, in his placing of the two accused at the crime house.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Funny or not as in ha ha, odd then, that Guede, of the few things he touched on, one was the; Meredith called Amanda a drugged up tart.


I reckon there's truth in it.
You look at the photo of the pair, above, and Sollecito looks skinny-fced, drained, and that does not come about through a single night of being up all night.

Anyway, as far as I am concerned, and to put it as kindly as I can; all three of them can just drop dead.

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Offline Tiziano


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:42 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -Pacelli's summing up   

Corriere dell'Umbria

By Elio Clero Bertoldi

Some very hard words from Carlo Pacelli, Lumumba's counsel.

He begins:"I will explain to the Appeal Court of the Assizes that Knox studded the whole of her route with nonsense, lies. A mixture of falsehood and truth from a consummate actress. She claimed for example to have stayed in Perugia to help the police. Which does not correspond with the truth. On the day of November 3rd 2007, a little more than 24 hours from the discovery of Mez's body, talking with her Aunt Dorothy, who lives in Germany, she was listened into and in response to her relation's invitation to go to her in Germany, the student replied: 'They have told me that I cannot go away.'
Therefore she had not stayed of her own will, but because of a precise request by the investigators."
The lawyer completes his reasoning: "The day of the 4th she was already feeling [the police] breathing down her neck, she was becoming aware of being under suspicion seeing that she said: 'They are treating me like a criminal.'

The most incisive attack, however, is the one Pacelli makes on the calumny.

He continues , referring in detail to her false accusation of Lumumba. But he does not stop there, referring to her confession to being present at the crime scene. Her reference to the scream, also heard by Signora Capezzali, but not reported until November 21st, whilst Knox refers to it on November 6th. Then there is the further confirmation from Signora Monacchia.

He concludes: "... on November 8th she availed herself of the faculty of not responding. And she continued to accuse, and to falsely accuse Patrick Lumumba. No, no: she continued to lie to guarantee impunity to Rudy Guede, to distance suspicions from herself, to save herself."
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:03 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -Pacelli's summing up   

Tiziano wrote:
Corriere dell'Umbria

By Elio Clero Bertoldi

Some very hard words from Carlo Pacelli, Lumumba's counsel.

Thanks. This is a good article. It has some more info about replacing Lumumba with Guede and Knox's story actually fits rather well (although I doubt she was in the kitchen). Furthermore, it says that Knox claimed that Lumumba was suggested to her by the police but that the police even had to ask 'who is Patrick?'. I don't think Pacelli will use the word 'she-devil' again but he will be really hard on Knox which he should be since it is her lies that put his client through hell.

I don't remember Knox refusing to answer questions on November 8 ? Does that mean she had the opportunity right there to explain about Patrick Lumumba and she refused? Point, set and match for Pacelli.
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Offline Tiziano


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:13 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 - Porta a Porta   

Porta a Perta


Porta a Porta su Meredith Kercher. Con il padre di Amanda Knox

Porta a Porta on Meredith Kercher: With Amanda Knox's Father

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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 2:10 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

No going into TOD, the staged breakin, the mixed DNA? Will Maresca be on hand?

Interesting, that they'll be bringing up the missing money.

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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 2:17 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 - Closing arguments   

Tiziano wrote:
lagoccia



Meredith Murder: The Perugia Prosecutor's Office aims for the strengthening of the sentences for Amanda and Raffaele

The exclusion of the generic extenuating circumstances granted in the first trial and the recognition of the aggravating circumstances of futile motives. A framework which could even lead to the request for life sentences.


Thank you, Tiziano! This is excellent news. I have been wondering what happened to the prosecution's appeal; we may have just found out. It sounds like some of the grounds for appeal may be raised in prosecution's closing arguments. To remind you, the prosecution's appeal against Knox and Sollecito argues that the acceptance of mitigating circumstances by the Massei court should be thrown out and that Knox and Sollecito should be sentenced to longer sentences.

To refresh everyone's memory, below is the PROSECUTION APPEAL SYNOPSIS written by Catnip (thanks Catnip!) All or part of these arguments just might find their way into the prosecution's speeches on Friday. In their summation, the prosecution will likely highlight some of the points - it may be useful to mentally recall them before the next hearing. Here they are:


PROSECUTION APPEAL SYNOPSIS
_____________________________________________________________________________

FIRST GROUND OF APPEAL
Denial of aggravating circumstances

{The appeal point revolves around legal definitions, formal logic, and the Court’s somewhat self-contradictory reasoning regarding the applicability of the aggravating circumstances: a full translation will follow, but basically it boils down to: if it was done for trivial reasons by Rudy, then it would be the same for the other two.}

______________________________________________________________________________

SECOND GROUND OF APPEAL
General Mitigation

{A full translation will follow, but the gist is as follows, with the prosecution challenging the Court’s reasoning (shown in bold) for granting the general mitigation (and so knocking years off the sentencing). The prosecution challenge is shown underneath the Court’s thinking.}

    - In allowing mitigation, the Court referred to: the clean record of the accused
      - The prosecution is appealing against this reasoning by saying: a clean record carries weight when an offender is of advanced age; with the offenders here being barely out of the age of minority, a clean record has little or no significance in terms of mitigation

    - In allowing mitigation, the Court referred to: the confirmed absence, besides drug use, of unseemly and disagreeable behaviour harmful to others
      - The prosecution is appealing against this reasoning by saying: as above; plus their chosen lifestyle is not totally without a shadow side: Raffaele always carried a knife with him (Knox’s mother raised this and the daughter confirmed it) – hardly a reassuring and usual circumstance; Knox, on her side, was fined $269 as a result of an episode that was not, in fact, able to be ignored: both conducts either having the potentiality, or the likelihood, of harming others. And even if these circumstances have no negative weight, they do place a hurdle in front of the idea of the “strait-laced” behaviour that the Court bases its reasons on.

    - In allowing mitigation, the Court referred to: diligent behaviour in study and towards others, e.g. Sollecito offering a lift to Popovič, Amanda working for Lumumba, even though studying and attending lessons
      - The prosecution is appealing against this reasoning by saying: these arguments are so facile that they hardly require commenting on: study success is tied to qualities of intelligence and memory, which the two accused certainly possess, but this is neither here nor there at the ethical level – which is where the mitigation operates. The Court emphasized Sollecito’s availability to help Popovič, to give her a lift to the bus station that night. Yet the same Popovič testified that Raffaele was not exactly happy at the prospect, so much so that he replied “in a cold tone”, and in any case not his normal one. And the fact that Amanda was working for Lumumba is also neutral with respect to the mitigation. Obviously, the accused had the economic need to do so, and that job, while not onerous, provided the opportunity for meeting people and avoiding the routine of study.

(Continued in next post)


Last edited by guermantes on Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:06 am, edited 4 times in total.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 2:29 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

(PROSECUTION APPEAL SYNOPSIS, continued)

    - In allowing mitigation, the Court referred to: the inexperience and immaturity of the accused, long distance from their families, and their attachment to each other
      - The prosecution is appealing against this reasoning by saying: inexperience and immaturity: the calunnia against Lumumba, its continuation during his unjust imprisonment and further calunnia against the Flying Squad during the trial, so opening up another case, – speak to a coldness and determination, and not a docile disposition and inexperience. And on the other hand, the intervention of the respective families never addressed themselves to undoing the initial calunnia against Lumumba even when Knox’s mother received her daughter’s confidences about Patrick’s innocence, and, notwithstanding that, there was no advice, from mother to daughter, to retract that accusation. No positive influence would have come from the presence of the families, at least to judge from the behaviour after the murder. The Court would have had to have considered this in conjunction with the staged burglary and the shared desire of both accused to mislead the investigation.

    - In allowing mitigation, the Court referred to: the events of that night being merely the accidental confluence of various factors in combination, with “no other plans, without any animosity or rancorous feeling against the victim that could by any means be seen as preparation/predisposition for the crime”
      - The prosecution is appealing against this reasoning by saying: in terms of mitigation, the Court spent little time on this, and did so in contradictory ways: if, as the Court affirms, the two accused were totally impassive, as if killing someone their own age was the same as going to the pub, the club, consuming stupefactants, or having sex, or, more simply, just going to sleep, how could this “accidental contingency” be used to lessen the offence? How could it possible to hold, of all the options that presented themselves on that unexpectedly free evening, that the murder and sexual violence against the young English girl be one of them? And if the Court held them to be capable of such coldness, of extreme criminal acts, solely because they had a free evening and the two didn’t know what else to do, this certainly goes to worrying psychology for the pair, because both have been glacial in this case, more so than Rudy who, at least, expressed sadness and grief for the victim.


    - In allowing mitigation, the Court referred to: the post-crime conduct, that is covering Meredith’s body, and distancing themselves from the room when the door was forced open (i.e., as signs of conscience)
      - The prosecution is appealing against this reasoning by saying: it is not reasonable to consider this as an expression of pity and a psychological rejection of the crime. The two types of behaviour are completely different and are expressions of different states of mind. It’s true that the covering of Meredith’s body expresses some form of pity towards the victim, but this gesture appears attributable solely to Amanda and as an instinctive expression of “feminine solidarity” which often characterises the murderous behaviour of women as against other women – rather than a conscience choice susceptible to ethical-legal evaluation. Both Amanda and Raffaele demonstrated a striking coldness, especially on the evening and night of 2 November.
      As for being distant from the door when it was broken open, it is evident that the two accused had no need to go and look at the murder scene. They knew well what lay behind the locked door.

Posted by Catnip: Fri Aug 20, 2010 6:07 am
http://www.perugiamurderfile.net/viewtopic.php?p=55733#p55733
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:19 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -Pacelli's summing up   

Tiziano wrote:
Corriere dell'Umbria

By Elio Clero Bertoldi

Some very hard words from Carlo Pacelli, Lumumba's counsel.

He begins:"I will explain to the Appeal Court of the Assizes that Knox studded the whole of her route with nonsense, lies. A mixture of falsehood and truth from a consummate actress. She claimed for example to have stayed in Perugia to help the police. Which does not correspond with the truth. On the day of November 3rd 2007, a little more than 24 hours from the discovery of Mez's body, talking with her Aunt Dorothy, who lives in Germany, she was listened into and in response to her relation's invitation to go to her in Germany, the student replied: 'They have told me that I cannot go away.'
Therefore she had not stayed of her own will, but because of a precise request by the investigators."
The lawyer completes his reasoning: "The day of the 4th she was already feeling [the police] breathing down her neck, she was becoming aware of being under suspicion seeing that she said: 'They are treating me like a criminal.'

The most incisive attack, however, is the one Pacelli makes on the calumny.

He continues , referring in detail to her false accusation of Lumumba. But he does not stop there, referring to her confession to being present at the crime scene. Her reference to the scream, also heard by Signora Capezzali, but not reported until November 21st, whilst Knox refers to it on November 6th. Then there is the further confirmation from Signora Monacchia.

He concludes: "... on November 8th she availed herself of the faculty of not responding. And she continued to accuse, and to falsely accuse Patrick Lumumba. No, no: she continued to lie to guarantee impunity to Rudy Guede, to distance suspicions from herself, to save herself."



Thanks for the translation, Tiziano.

He nails it. Independently of what doubts Conti and Vechiotti might have been raised, this is the kind of evidence you cannot ignore. Her false accusation and her written statement to police are damning.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:05 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Closing Arguments Friday in Amanda Knox Case (video)

by LINDA BYRON / KING 5 News

Posted on September 21, 2011 at 10:55 AM

Updated today at 8:34 PM

Amanda Knox's family is headed back to Italy for what are expected to be the final days of Knox's appeals trial.

Amanda's family has been disappointed before, but they say they're increasingly hopeful that an appeals court will free Amanda, and that it could happen as soon as next week.

Her father and stepfather are already in Perugia. Now the rest of her family on their way to Italy to join them.

“Our hope is that it’s the last [trip] and that we bring Amanda home,” said Amanda’s mother, Edda Mellas. “I’m not going to fears, I’m just going to the hopes. We hope this is it and we don’t have to go back.”

Amanda's been in prison for nearly four years but her family has always maintained she is innocent and they hope an appeals court will exonerate her and they can bring her home.


KING 5 News

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:54 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -Porta a Porta   

Further to the Rai 1 Porta a Porta, broadcast Wednesday 21st at 23.15, it is posted as available for reviewing shortly at
PaP
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:23 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Me, I say, they can drop dead but just as I hate murder, death sentences too are not what I believe in.

How fortunate for Knox, Sollecito and certainly Guede, what with racism, that they are not being tried in Georgia.

And Georgia, and those in authority, mark my words, they believe they themselves are Christians.

Ha!

9 superior court judges refused to back down and spare the guy, I do not know whethere he was or was not guilty but to kill in the name of country as Geiorgia just did, in that way, shows a backward mentality.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:33 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Hi Jester, I'm pleased if I did help you,

I understand the work pressure,

it isn't as if it's easy to have a way to earn your money and one needs to earn a living somehow, me translating, it's not as pretty as it sounds, it is not easy to just switch jobs, mainly it isn't, for most people.

I get panic attacks thinking damn, I might not get more work, although I have been getting more and more, certainly in the last two years, after beginning professionally in 2004, then the very next day I again get work and end up working all kinds of mad hours, like now, always get it done but it's a very nerve twiddling way to live.
Legal documents are the worst, written in a language that's not used by any normal person, I actually hate the unnecessarily complex way it is all written, very cold. It has to be very precise, as no mistakes can be permitted, or else someone could understand things in an incorrect way, so I guess that is why it has to be so stiff and formal, still, for an ordinary person, the type of language used, would seem completely weird.

Anyway, doing what you do has to be better than what I have been doing.
The only good bit about it is, I can please myself how I get things done and when, and I do not have to tolerate others, which has its pros and cons.

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Last edited by zorba on Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:42 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 - Porta a Porta   

I still have not been able to view the Porta a Porta programme, but here is the Rai advance publicity on it.




HANNO UCCISO LORO MEREDITH?
In onda mercoledì 21 settembre 2011 alle 23.15
DID THEY KILL MEREDITH?
Broadcast Wednesday 21st September, at 23.15


One on side the father of Amanda, Kurt Knox, on the other the parents of Meredith, the English girl killed in Perugia in 2008 (sic). This evening on Porta a Porta we will show you witnesses and exclusive film clips on the Meredith Kercher story.

Awaiting the outcome of the appeal trial which sees Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito as defendants with accusation of voluntary murder, we will confront in the studio the justifications of the prosecution and those of the defense, we will see how the last expert scientific reports could demolish some important prosecution theses and [see] an unpublished film clip on the last on the spot investigations carried out at the murder cottage.

Guests of Bruno Vespa Simonetta Matone, Paolo Crepet, Roberta Bruzzone, Francesco Maresca, Sabina Castelfranco, Umberto Brindani, Giuseppe Castellini. A link to the father of Amanda, Kurt Knox, and an interview with the Kerchers.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 7:29 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 - Porta a Porta   

Tiziano wrote:
I still have not been able to view the Porta a Porta programme, but here is the Rai advance publicity on it.




HANNO UCCISO LORO MEREDITH?
In onda mercoledì 21 settembre 2011 alle 23.15
DID THEY KILL MEREDITH?
Broadcast Wednesday 21st September, at 23.15


One on side the father of Amanda, Kurt Knox, on the other the parents of Meredith, the English girl killed in Perugia in 2008 (sic). This evening on Porta a Porta we will show you witnesses and exclusive film clips on the Meredith Kercher story.

Awaiting the outcome of the appeal trial which sees Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito as defendants with accusation of voluntary murder, we will confront in the studio the justifications of the prosecution and those of the defense, we will see how the last expert scientific reports could demolish some important prosecution theses and [see] an unpublished film clip on the last on the spot investigations carried out at the murder cottage.

Guests of Bruno Vespa Simonetta Matone, Paolo Crepet, Roberta Bruzzone, Francesco Maresca, Sabina Castelfranco, Umberto Brindani, Giuseppe Castellini. A link to the father of Amanda, Kurt Knox, and an interview with the Kerchers.


Thank you, Tiziano!

Much appreciated.

The Kerchers! In an interview! Fantastic. I hope it's the start of a big P U S H B A C K.

I'm sick of seeing the Knox's roll over the media unopposed. Amanda's side is the ONLY side being presented.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:15 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

zorba wrote:
Hi Jester, I'm pleased if I did help you,

I understand the work pressure,

it isn't as if it's easy to have a way to earn your money and one needs to earn a living somehow, me translating, it's not as pretty as it sounds, itis not easy to just switch jobs, moarly it isn't, for most people.

I get panic attacks thinking damn, I might not get more work, although I have been getting more and more, certainly in the last two years, after beginning professionally in 2004, then the very next day I again get work and end up working all kinds of mad hours, like now, always get it done but it's a very nerve twiddling way to live.
Legal documents are the worst, written in a language that's not used by any normal person, I actually hate the unnecessarily complex way it is all written, very cold. It has to be very precise, as no mistakes can be permitted, or else someone could understand things in an incorrect way, so I guess that is why it has to be so stiff and formal, still, for an ordinary person, the type of language used, would seem completely weird.

Anyway, doing what you do has to be better than what I have been doing.
The only good bit about it is, I can please myself how I get things done and when, and I do not have to tolerate others, which has its pros and cons.


I was definitely in semi-panic mode when I couldn't concentrate on what I was saying, but it's sorted out ... for me, at least. My supervisor may not like it, but this is a pilot project so hopefully feedback will fix the problems. The camera needs to be on the screen, not pointed at the chair in front of the computer. Online students arriving late was a disruption ... but not anymore.

Barristers can't text because they're so careful with their words ... it takes them forever to get it perfectly cold and precise. It takes them forever to formulate an email.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:30 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

It's good to read something about the upcoming appeal hearing that isn't complete propaganda. Some newspapers, bloggers and forums have spent the last week or more shouting "read, read, read all about it, Knox to be released in a few days". The story or article is nothing more than someone predicting the outcome of a trial, which of course reminds me of the soccer tournament - predictions, speculations, propaganda, not news. Sports reporters make predictions, not journalists. An opinion piece speculating on the outcome of the trial is not news, it's opinion. At least the Italian news discusses the issues rather than the predictions, like Knox and Sollecito's moral character, the level of deception (including Edda) surrounding the accusations against Patrick, the nonsense and twisting of information to deceive from the beginning (reason for remaining in Italy~ Knox) and that very fishy broken window.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:49 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 - Porta a Porta   

Tiziano wrote:
I still have not been able to view the Porta a Porta programme, but here is the Rai advance publicity on it.




HANNO UCCISO LORO MEREDITH?
In onda mercoledì 21 settembre 2011 alle 23.15
DID THEY KILL MEREDITH?
Broadcast Wednesday 21st September, at 23.15


One on side the father of Amanda, Kurt Knox, on the other the parents of Meredith, the English girl killed in Perugia in 2008 (sic). This evening on Porta a Porta we will show you witnesses and exclusive film clips on the Meredith Kercher story.

Awaiting the outcome of the appeal trial which sees Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito as defendants with accusation of voluntary murder, we will confront in the studio the justifications of the prosecution and those of the defense, we will see how the last expert scientific reports could demolish some important prosecution theses and [see] an unpublished film clip on the last on the spot investigations carried out at the murder cottage.

Guests of Bruno Vespa Simonetta Matone, Paolo Crepet, Roberta Bruzzone, Francesco Maresca, Sabina Castelfranco, Umberto Brindani, Giuseppe Castellini. A link to the father of Amanda, Kurt Knox, and an interview with the Kerchers.



Here is a link to the porta a porta program:

http://www.rai.tv/dl/RaiTV/programmi/me ... f.html#p=0

Stephanie and Arline Kercher are on at about 00:26:00 and 1:35:50. (as far as I can see).


Last edited by Ava on Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:16 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 - Porta a Porta   

Tiziano wrote:
I still have not been able to view the Porta a Porta programme, but here is the Rai advance publicity on it.




HANNO UCCISO LORO MEREDITH?
In onda mercoledì 21 settembre 2011 alle 23.15
DID THEY KILL MEREDITH?
Broadcast Wednesday 21st September, at 23.15


One on side the father of Amanda, Kurt Knox, on the other the parents of Meredith, the English girl killed in Perugia in 2008 (sic). This evening on Porta a Porta we will show you witnesses and exclusive film clips on the Meredith Kercher story.

Awaiting the outcome of the appeal trial which sees Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito as defendants with accusation of voluntary murder, we will confront in the studio the justifications of the prosecution and those of the defense, we will see how the last expert scientific reports could demolish some important prosecution theses and [see] an unpublished film clip on the last on the spot investigations carried out at the murder cottage.

Guests of Bruno Vespa Simonetta Matone, Paolo Crepet, Roberta Bruzzone, Francesco Maresca, Sabina Castelfranco, Umberto Brindani, Giuseppe Castellini. A link to the father of Amanda, Kurt Knox, and an interview with the Kerchers.



Is this like a talk show and are they going to sit together with Curt Knox discussing the case? That would be a first.

I believe the Kercher's are too educated to offer any resistance to Curt Knox. They are not mean enough.
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:40 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Thanks, y'all. So great to have these links, and all the updates. Ti amo, Tiz.

Michael, I know you're going to be busy, posting everything. I already appreciate it. Mind you, I already have my brow furrowed, concentration at the ready, for the GOOGLE translations :)

Jackie. hugz-)

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Just Tweeted by Andrea Vogt:

andreavogt Andrea Vogt
Still grieving mother of #meredithkercher asks Italy for justice. Tells Tgcom all evidence should be considered. http://t.co/sC0WphfA

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THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Tiziano...Thanks for the great translations! :)

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Cape wrote:
Michael, I know you're going to be busy, posting everything. I already appreciate it. Mind you, I already have my brow furrowed, concentration at the ready, for the GOOGLE translations



Don't worry Cape, I shall be :)

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:15 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Nell wrote:
Is this like a talk show and are they going to sit together with Curt Knox discussing the case? That would be a first.

I believe the Kercher's are too educated to offer any resistance to Curt Knox. They are not mean enough.



I can't see them sitting the Kerchers next to Knox...maybe they'll do their part by phone or video link?

Now, Curt will have the opportunity to to give his condolences to the Kerchers directly...without giving them a load of flannel about how innocent she is, I might add. Let's see if he does. If he doesn't, I'm going to be asking 'why not?!'. I'd also like to see him apologise to them for having his web thugs attack them online. I suspect, that won't happen.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

GOOGLE TRANSLATION:


Meredith's mother: "What happened to
the evidence they have nailed the guilty? "

Arline Kercher tells Tgcom the last phone call with his daughter and doubts about investigation


11:48 - Meredith's mom wants justice and, in a lengthy statement to Tgcom, wonders what happened to all the evidence that, at first instance, had nailed Rudy Guede, Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito. "In that process there were many trials. What has changed? "asks Arline Kercher before declaring that she will accept the ruling of Appeals, asking that the same be done by all parties.
In the words of Arline Kercher.

"My daughter Meredith was killed while she was in the safest place: in her bedroom. Who killed her knew her well, but her confidence has been betrayed. For me it is inconceivable that.

I have my daughter killed in her home. not in a park, not the street. Her body we did not find in a watch.

I had heard from her the day before the murder. She was happy. She had promised that she would be back to celebrate my birthday. She had bought the chocolate that she wanted to give me.

In these four years I never stopped thinking about her. And 'as if I had always had her near me.

She loved Italy, she was fascinated by Perugia.

I do not make the case to the names of those convicted, I do not care whether they are called Rudy, Amanda and Raffaele. For me it's just that my daughter was killed by someone who at first instance was found guilty and sentenced.

In that process there were many tests, I wonder now what happened to them. They tell me that would no longer be valid but they are two and all the others? What has changed from the first trial?

I accepted the ruling of the Court of Assizes, and accept what will be delivered by the Court of Appeal will have to make him like me and all the others without any distinction.

I want justice done for my daughter. "



TGCOM

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

A few days ago, Knox and fellow inmates were treated to another classical concert. GOOGLE TRANSLATION:


Amanda Knox and classical music
Thurs 15 September 2011 09:18



The event, staged on September 14, was called Music of Hope , in the 66th Sagra Musicale Umbra. It was to perform the Quintet Kandinsky . Location: the women's prison huts of Perugia. Among the audience even a smiling Amanda Knox .

The young American, a few days before the start of the final phase of the appeals process in which she indicted the ex-boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito to the savage murder of English Meredith Kercher, she participated with great passion, confirming the His love for music. She was sitting in the front row and wearing a light blue dress, leggings and sandals blacks.

One of the Quintet of the artists Kandinsky, Frondini Simon said after the concert: ' It was a very beautiful moment for both the public and for us. There was a lot of attention from the girls, who sang one of a proposed by us, the famous song Maria , taken from West Side Story by Bernstein, for surely they felt very involved with the figure of this girl, from her feelings . Don Saul, the chaplain of the penitentiary, said that with our music we did not spend all evil. There is no greater satisfaction, thinking of the place where we played '.



EXCITE

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Thanks for the message from Arline Kercher, Michael.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Ergon wrote:
Thanks for the message from Arline Kercher, Michael.



I'm hoping Tiziano or someone can give us a better translation of it later.

It's about time someone heard the Kerchers. I'm sick to death of having to constantly listen to the Melloxes.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jester wrote:
zorba wrote:
Hi Jester, I'm pleased if I did help you,

I understand the work pressure,

it isn't as if it's easy to have a way to earn your money and one needs to earn a living somehow, me translating, it's not as pretty as it sounds, it is not easy to just switch jobs, mainly it isn't, for most people.

I get panic attacks thinking damn, I might not get more work, although I have been getting more and more, certainly in the last two years, after beginning professionally in 2004, then the very next day I again get work and end up working all kinds of mad hours, like now, always get it done but it's a very nerve twiddling way to live.
Legal documents are the worst, written in a language that's not used by any normal person, I actually hate the unnecessarily complex way it is all written, very cold. It has to be very precise, as no mistakes can be permitted, or else someone could understand things in an incorrect way, so I guess that is why it has to be so stiff and formal, still, for an ordinary person, the type of language used, would seem completely weird.

Anyway, doing what you do has to be better than what I have been doing.
The only good bit about it is, I can please myself how I get things done and when, and I do not have to tolerate others, which has its pros and cons.


I was definitely in semi-panic mode when I couldn't concentrate on what I was saying, but it's sorted out ... for me, at least. My supervisor may not like it, but this is a pilot project so hopefully feedback will fix the problems. The camera needs to be on the screen, not pointed at the chair in front of the computer. Online students arriving late was a disruption ... but not anymore.

Barristers can't text because they're so careful with their words ... it takes them forever to get it perfectly cold and precise. It takes them forever to formulate an email.



Good for you that you made amendments to the set-up, after all, it is all well and good being dictated to but when you are the one who ends up being giving the feedback when people are unhappy, then this point is fine to use in your own defence when anyone is trying to get you to follow them like some kind of a sheep, you might tell them fine, as long as you are prepared to take responsibility when people are unhappy and complain.

Yes, the stuff I'm working on is mostly for civil-law notaries, they all have to have a Masters Degree in Law, I was wondering how their studies must be, in law, exercises in writing in very formal ways.

To work on it, means I have to have ways to find the correct terms, not ones like Nick Pisa or maybe it was Follain, made up for their own happiness but not terms used in real life, like; Fast Track. That one gets on my nerves, I think Pis started it and if it wasn't him I'm pretty sure it was Follain, Follain who wrote on this case in the Times and was doing better than the rest but I think he stopped and the Times having difficulties to survive started charging for online access. So if translating this case, one could not use the term Fast Track because it is not what it is, seeing as there are about 3 different types of speeded-up processes and fast track does not articulate what is actually happening at all. It gives a sense of lack of thoroughness, very handy when you are someone who is not an impartial party but someone trying to gain leverage by pouring scorn onto the case where and as far as Guede is concerned in order to tilt the other two upwards by pushing his profile downwards, tilt the ''two'' upwards only because it has to be that way, because they cannot tilt Knox up and abandon Sollecito, as he is intertwined in the dagger game of twisted tongues. Damn, it in fact is reminiscent of those cowboy films, White man speak with forked tongue, except, Seattle I can't rightly remember there being any old cowboy films from around that area, but the Knox lot have made up for their past lack of fame in this matter.

Yeah, journalists/reporters like to use those catchy sounding words and phrases, catch-phrases are most popular but when it is about murder I find it distasteful, this being inaccurate and trend-pushy.
After Follain or Pisa started using the term fast track to indicate that the trial Guede had was speeded-up, in fact abbreviated, then after that all articles copied that. they copied it without examining it or knowing what the hell they were actually talking about.

I have pointed it out quite a lot, how the abbreviated process is just one of about three that are processes that take far less time than a full-blown trial, they take less time for various and different reasons.
If a person is caught red-handed with a knife in hand whilst said knife is still stuck in the victim, it goes without saying, that a lot of messing around is in that case simply unnecessary, that type of process is way faster than the abbreviated process that Guede made use of.

Anyhow, I for one am pleased that neither Sollecito nor Knox thought it fitting to try to save the country time & money by opting for the abbreviated process, as it would have meant them, like Guede, getting away/off with a slap on the wrist, relatively speaking in view/light of the serious and wicked nature of the crimes committed.

I find it equally sickening to hear about how Guede's lawyers will immediately go for a special appeal if the other two KILLERS are released.
Sure Mr Biscotti, your client was having a loving relationship and just simply happened to be relieving his bowels when all of that went on, and afraid he'd get all the blame, said nothing. Going by what Meredith's friends revealed, Meredith would have told them if she had any such dealings with Guede, so he is a liar, and it is shameful that he is such a coward that he makes misuse of Meredith not being around to tell the world how he is lying, how the other two are lying.

Bless poor Meredith and her family and grieving friends.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael this is only an attempt to improve the TGCOM Google Translate generated translation. This bit from what Meredith's mother said.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

My daughter Meredith was killed while she was in the safest place: in her bedroom. Who killed her knew her well, had her confidence but her confidence has been betrayed. For me all of this is inconceivable.

I have had my daughter killed in her own home. Not in a park, not in the street. We did not find her body in a garden.

I had heard from her the day before the murder. She was happy. She had promised me that she would be back to celebrate my birthday. She had bought the chocolate that she wanted to give me as a present.

In these four years I never stopped thinking about her. And it is as if I have always had her near me.

She loved Italy, she was fascinated by Perugia.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

[guardino was a typo from the newspaper and should have read, I think, giardino= garden]

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 2:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Amanda Knox Vigil Is Combination of 'Dread and Hope' as Murder Appeal Nears End
By NIKKI BATTISTE
PERUGIA, Italy Sept. 22, 2011

ABC News
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 2:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Zorba - Thanks for having a go at the translation.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

I am getting sick of newspaper after newspaper cheering on Amanda Knox and her obnoxious family.

The moral of the story folks...if you are a middle class American (especially female), feel free to go to foreign countries and rape and murder whoever you like. And if any of those silly little foreigners forget their place and dare to arrest you for it we the US media, will be bringing out the brass bands, cheerleaders and clowns to loudly beat the drum for you along with much barely disguised flag waving. Raping and murdering foreigners is cool, just don't do it at home kids, we put the victim first when they are Americans.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Thanks Michael

Oh dear I see that I made a typo in my post on Pisa and Follain and the Fast Track nonsense, I have written Pis instead of Pisa, oh well, In'sh Allah and all that jazz.

I'll just leave it as it came out... it is obviously God's will!

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
I am getting sick of newspaper after newspaper cheering on Amanda Knox and her obnoxious family.

The moral of the story folks...if you are a middle class American (especially female), feel free to go to foreign countries and rape and murder whoever you like. And if any of those silly little foreigners forget their place and dare to arrest you for it we the US media, will be bringing out the brass bands, cheerleaders and clowns to loudly beat the drum for you along with much barely disguised flag waving. Raping and murdering foreigners is cool, just don't do it at home kids, we put the victim first when they are Americans.




I think the same, tried to look at the Porta thing, and it immediately struck me as a lot of crap, with murder being turned into a family entertainment, sensationalist, lot of old bollocks.

I was thinking on seeing that smug git Knox's dad sat there, that I must be the only one who sees that Knox Amanda has a lot off of Knox Senior, he and she, well they both have the eyes of a pair of shit-house rats.

I never bother ruining my day/week month or year by looking at such people as tha ungentleman, as I know he is full of shit and is entirely dishonest; a minute is way too much already!

It will be nice if someone competent gives a true and accurate summary or outlines, importantly, what those who are not brainwashed idiots, said, those such as the magistrate. In Italy a judge is a magistrate and a prosecutor is a magistrate but a prosecutor is not then automatically a judge or vice versa.

I was pleased they didn't have him (Knox) sat there through the entire thing. I could not see properly until later on, who the people were sat in the chairs next to where Knox had been sitting, so I couldn't tell whether or not he was actually still sat there, but even before I had worked out that he'd gone, I did think that could not be possible that they'd seat Maresca next to him.

They did not.

I don't know anything about Porta potty or whatever it is called but I know right now that it doesn't seem to be a good thing.

Maybe Popper or Yummi, Nicki or other can or will enlighten us as to what the actual overall quality was and whether or not it was a lot of old propaganda and a nondescript, money spinning commercial TV show.

I know the magistrate and Maresca are hardly nondescript types but the intention of the show makers, I wonder if it can be worked out what they are up to when they produce such a show.

I mean all of those huge screen shots of Knox & Sollecito as the programme enters and man, did I see, did I spy a single one of Meredith, no, nothing as far as I could see.


For that reason, I do not like it, the intro is all wrong, let's remember who it is about and why and have someone with a brain place perspective into the mix.

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Last edited by zorba on Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

You can tell what is on Mother Mellas' mind... grub and plenty of it; Well when she gets back we want to carry on regardless, and Amanda wants to lie on her back and have cooked breakfast..

I think meantime mother has been eating daughter's share.

Yeah I'm mean, because I'm fed up with them, she a teacher, how it is that she is allowed loose in a classroom I can't imagine it, she if not primarily aware, of what her daughter was up to, certainly become aware in court and in full view of everyone, deciding to be a liar as well, like her daughter; she decided to become part of a murderous plan, the one designed by her daughter and her odd-fella Sollecito.

That's unforgivable.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 - Porta a Porta   

Ava wrote:
Tiziano wrote:
I still have not been able to view the Porta a Porta programme, but here is the Rai advance publicity on it.




HANNO UCCISO LORO MEREDITH?
In onda mercoledì 21 settembre 2011 alle 23.15
DID THEY KILL MEREDITH?
Broadcast Wednesday 21st September, at 23.15


One on side the father of Amanda, Kurt Knox, on the other the parents of Meredith, the English girl killed in Perugia in 2008 (sic). This evening on Porta a Porta we will show you witnesses and exclusive film clips on the Meredith Kercher story.

Awaiting the outcome of the appeal trial which sees Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito as defendants with accusation of voluntary murder, we will confront in the studio the justifications of the prosecution and those of the defense, we will see how the last expert scientific reports could demolish some important prosecution theses and [see] an unpublished film clip on the last on the spot investigations carried out at the murder cottage.

Guests of Bruno Vespa Simonetta Matone, Paolo Crepet, Roberta Bruzzone, Francesco Maresca, Sabina Castelfranco, Umberto Brindani, Giuseppe Castellini. A link to the father of Amanda, Kurt Knox, and an interview with the Kerchers.



Here is a link to the porta a porta program:

http://www.rai.tv/dl/RaiTV/programmi/me ... f.html#p=0

Stephanie and Arline Kercher are on at about 00:26:00 and 1:35:50. (as far as I can see).


Isn't that the Gone With the Wind soundtrack at the beginning of the show?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Well, Zorba, perhaps a little mean. Understandably so, because my first thought was that Chris had sent home all that unwanted Pasta :)

BIG difference, the pictures of Amanda at the Rock Concert, and Meredith in the Rock Vidoe. Such a striking difference. The one so ordinary, with zut personality, and Meredith, who was a real star.

Arline, always classy. Apology, any sign of sympathy to Arline..from Curt? I think NOT. He sheds tears for his Mortgage payments. :( And, always looks and acts constipated.

Yes, what about all the evidence? We can be sure the Prosecution will drive those points home. They didn't * Go with the Wind*.

Everyone ready for the tear jerker? Amanda, the psycopath on the stand with her declaration? Pfft.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
I am getting sick of newspaper after newspaper cheering on Amanda Knox and her obnoxious family.

The moral of the story folks...if you are a middle class American (especially female), feel free to go to foreign countries and rape and murder whoever you like. And if any of those silly little foreigners forget their place and dare to arrest you for it we the US media, will be bringing out the brass bands, cheerleaders and clowns to loudly beat the drum for you along with much barely disguised flag waving. Raping and murdering foreigners is cool, just don't do it at home kids, we put the victim first when they are Americans.


Yeah i know what you mean Michael it seems like the whole media establishment is courting her vile family and cheering her over the finish line!!

They seem to think it is some kind of game and Amanda will get up and recieve a medal at the end...

Just hope and pray that the conviction is confirmed as i cannot begin to imagine the the extended hurt and pain it would cause the poor Kercher family, they have been through so much thanks to knox's and her disrespecting family and friends!!

RIP Meredith Kercher

JEFFSKI

"BE JUST AND FEAR NOT"
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

John Hooper tweets:

@john_hooper John Hooper
Leaving 4 Perugia 4 final stages of Amanda #Knox appeal. Will be tweeting the highlights / turning points.

1 hour ago

Attachment:
john_hooper_140x140.jpg

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John Hooper, who reports for the Guardian from Rome, has spent more than two decades abroad as a foreign correspondent
http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/johnhooper


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

zorba wrote:
Michael this is only an attempt to improve the TGCOM Google Translate generated translation. This bit from what Meredith's mother said.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

My daughter Meredith was killed while she was in the safest place: in her bedroom. Who killed her knew her well, had her confidence but her confidence has been betrayed. For me all of this is inconceivable.

I have had my daughter killed in her own home. Not in a park, not in the street. We did not find her body in a garden.

I had heard from her the day before the murder. She was happy. She had promised me that she would be back to celebrate my birthday. She had bought the chocolate that she wanted to give me as a present.
In these four years I never stopped thinking about her. And it is as if I have always had her near me.


Thanks for the translation, Zorba

Mr Kercher is such a dignified, refined, respectful, classy Father.
His pain about "the four years" tears at my heartstrings.

Would it not be nice if just a smidgen of his admirable attributes rubbed off on the Mellox menagerie.
Cassandra and her daughters are the only ones I have any regard for.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:58 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Awaiting a final verdict for Amanda Knox (video, 3:30 min)

REUTERS

Nothing new, an excerpt from the video transcript:

A verdict in the appeals trial is expected next week, and Knox could be freed even if the prosecution decides to seek a re-trial on technical grounds. SOUNDBITE: Carlo Fiorio, is a professor of criminal procedure at the University of Perugia, saying: (Italian): "A sentence that withdraws a murder charge would immediately lead to a release of the two defendants from prison. In the case of an acquittal at the appeals hearing these two defendants should be freed. At this point the Italian judicial code says that the judge should order the immediate release of the defendants and they should be in every aspect, free. Procedure dictates that they need to return to prison to collect their personal items. Normally this return is with the police but it is not written any way that they cannot do this by themselves with their lawyers." If Knox and Sollecito find the ruling unfavorable next week, there is still time for an appeal. SOUNDBITE: Carlo Fiorio, is a professor of criminal procedure at the University of Perugia, saying: (Italian): "In any case the two defendants can still appeal in a final court in order to try and repeal both verdicts of the murder trial and appeals hearing." Analysts say an acquittal would be a blow to the image of Italian police procedures and the Italian judicial system, both of which have come under criticism in the British and American media.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:15 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Amanda Knox Case: Who's Who in the Italian Murder Trial


ABC NEWS


(13 pages, no surprises Amanda Knox takes page 1)

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

jeffski wrote:
Michael wrote:
I am getting sick of newspaper after newspaper cheering on Amanda Knox and her obnoxious family.

The moral of the story folks...if you are a middle class American (especially female), feel free to go to foreign countries and rape and murder whoever you like. And if any of those silly little foreigners forget their place and dare to arrest you for it we the US media, will be bringing out the brass bands, cheerleaders and clowns to loudly beat the drum for you along with much barely disguised flag waving. Raping and murdering foreigners is cool, just don't do it at home kids, we put the victim first when they are Americans.


Yeah i know what you mean Michael it seems like the whole media establishment is courting her vile family and cheering her over the finish line!!

They seem to think it is some kind of game and Amanda will get up and recieve a medal at the end...

Just hope and pray that the conviction is confirmed as i cannot begin to imagine the the extended hurt and pain it would cause the poor Kercher family, they have been through so much thanks to knox's and her disrespecting family and friends!!

RIP Meredith Kercher

JEFFSKI

"BE JUST AND FEAR NOT"



It's absolutely sickening. Never in my life have I seen a convicted sex murderer and their family receive anything even approaching this degree of media cheerleading. Talk about a partisan media!

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

This report in German quotes Sabina Castelfranco, who is of course in the "innocentisti" camp and is rooting for Knox and Sollecito.

http://www.n24.de/news/newsitem_7276416.html

Google translation:

Observers believe acquittal process is possible

"The process observer for the U.S. broadcaster CBS Sabina Castelfranco, believes in turning the process in favor of Knox and Sollecito." After an independent review of the evidence, the opinion of the court could shift in their favor. The probability has increased much that the first conviction for Amanda and Raffaele is tilted. The outcome of the case is still open, but it looks positive for the two accused at this stage. "
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

zorba wrote:
Michael this is only an attempt to improve the TGCOM Google Translate generated translation. This bit from what Meredith's mother said.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

My daughter Meredith was killed while she was in the safest place: in her bedroom. Who killed her knew her well, had her confidence but her confidence has been betrayed. For me all of this is inconceivable.

I have had my daughter killed in her own home. Not in a park, not in the street. We did not find her body in a garden.

I had heard from her the day before the murder. She was happy. She had promised me that she would be back to celebrate my birthday. She had bought the chocolate that she wanted to give me as a present.

In these four years I never stopped thinking about her. And it is as if I have always had her near me.

She loved Italy, she was fascinated by Perugia.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

[guardino was a typo from the newspaper and should have read, I think, giardino= garden]


The fact that she was murdered in her bedroom is such an important point. Suppose she was at home when the pretend burglar broke the window. She would either be in the kitchen checking it out when she was attacked, or in her locked bedroom. Neither happened. Suppose she was not at home when the pretend burglar broke the window. She would have approached the cottage walking towards Filomina's bedroom window ... shutters open, big hole in the window and most likely the pretend burglar would have used a light or flashlight rather than trip his way through the cottage. Upon arriving home to see a light on or at least some sign of someone in the cottage, she would not have gone to her room and left the door unlocked. Could she have arrived home, not noticed that someone else was there when no one else was expected to be there, called out and heard nothing but silence and then thought nothing of it? If the pretend burglar was there to steal things, why didn't he just leave with the laptop when Meredith came home? Why did she remain in her bedroom when someone was sneaking through the cottage ... did she not hear anything to alert her?

The phone calls at 10 ... were they frantic attempts by Meredith to call for help, pushing the wrong numbers in a panic?

There are so many more realistic scenarios other than the chopped up concoctions that the Knox/Mellas team would like people to believe. Nothing about a pretend break in makes any sense.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Amanda Knox 'hopeful of release'
US student and ex-boyfriend hope unreliable DNA evidence will see their conviction for Meredith Kercher's murder overturned

John Hooper
guardian.co.uk, Thursday 22 September 2011 19.35 BST


THE GUARDIAN


(This one's a 'must read')

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THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline jhansigirl


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 7:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Looks like RG has a new handle "a small-time drugs trafficker" Yay-)

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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

'She's been completely forgotten': Meredith Kercher's family speaks out as pair convicted of her murder restart their appeal
By Nick Pisa

Last updated at 8:39 PM, 22nd September 2011


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ds-newsxml
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

TAG: "Not worth reading" :roll:

Amanda Knox, long strange trip may begin to end tonight in court

British tabloids soften Knox criticism over four years while some American journalists dig in

By Steve Shay
2011-09-22

WEST SEATTLE HERALD
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jester wrote:
zorba wrote:
Michael this is only an attempt to improve the TGCOM Google Translate generated translation. This bit from what Meredith's mother said.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

My daughter Meredith was killed while she was in the safest place: in her bedroom. Who killed her knew her well, had her confidence but her confidence has been betrayed. For me all of this is inconceivable.

I have had my daughter killed in her own home. Not in a park, not in the street. We did not find her body in a garden.

I had heard from her the day before the murder. She was happy. She had promised me that she would be back to celebrate my birthday. She had bought the chocolate that she wanted to give me as a present.

In these four years I never stopped thinking about her. And it is as if I have always had her near me.

She loved Italy, she was fascinated by Perugia.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

[guardino was a typo from the newspaper and should have read, I think, giardino= garden]


The fact that she was murdered in her bedroom is such an important point. Suppose she was at home when the pretend burglar broke the window. She would either be in the kitchen checking it out when she was attacked, or in her locked bedroom. Neither happened. Suppose she was not at home when the pretend burglar broke the window. She would have approached the cottage walking towards Filomina's bedroom window ... shutters open, big hole in the window and most likely the pretend burglar would have used a light or flashlight rather than trip his way through the cottage. Upon arriving home to see a light on or at least some sign of someone in the cottage, she would not have gone to her room and left the door unlocked. Could she have arrived home, not noticed that someone else was there when no one else was expected to be there, called out and heard nothing but silence and then thought nothing of it? If the pretend burglar was there to steal things, why didn't he just leave with the laptop when Meredith came home? Why did she remain in her bedroom when someone was sneaking through the cottage ... did she not hear anything to alert her?

The phone calls at 10 ... were they frantic attempts by Meredith to call for help, pushing the wrong numbers in a panic?

There are so many more realistic scenarios other than the chopped up concoctions that the Knox/Mellas team would like people to believe. Nothing about a pretend break in makes any sense.



Right you are.

I mean, who in their right mind as a burglar, would break in, beforehand, then lay in wait, when, he/she could never know, certainly not in a mixed-company inhabited house, who would be coming home and when.
So if you did break in, like that, making a mess, that you know could already be seen, the broken window, before anyone had even entered the house, then exactly what would be in your mind; what if a whole bunch of people showed up, and you were hiding inside.

Nah, it is simply not feasible at all, that a burglar would do this. Sometimes, cranky burglars stumble across a female and rape them in the process of burglary, yet if anyone had smashed that window, and Meredith had been inside, then there's no way that person, whoever it supposedly was, would have then been able to proceed up the wall, yeah sure with the people inside already calling the police, or running out the door while you are stuck up the wall.

It is not what burglars do. On British TV there have been several programmes, showing people how easily burglars can get in, and what they revealed is that the burglar never makes it any harder than it has to be, and then they choose the method that gets them in within 60 seconds to 2 minutes.

One would have to be mentally retarded to choose the route Knox's pals say Guede took.
Insane.
Guede was and is not a mentally retarded person.


Part of the misinformation campaign owes thanks to Nick Pisa and the like, it was also Nick forever using the same old tired lines, DRIFTER, bla bla bla, small time drug dealer or plain drug dealer, take your pick, and that too was copied gluttonously by truly mentally retarded persons such as Dempsey, apart from that rotten pear-faced crank making stuff up all of her own accord like the nasty Park Bench about the old guy, Caratolo (spelling) and also the nasty; a ''teensy weensy'' bra clasp, man I could have had her put in front of a firing squad when I read that particular cnut line. Dempsey, through her spy work and her nasty little blog gained Knox-Mellas approval and her going on about that bra clasp so long ago, proves she was up to no good and had access to stuff via the family.
This case reminded me of how nasty some people can be, how twisted, but this lot do set new precedents in that light (light is too good a word call it darkness), they must be proud of themselves.

Not just shits like her though but by the other pen-pushers, or keyboard jabbing journalists. Nope, we do not spend a lot of time really working, we much prefer to act like a lot of daft parrots, and save our time for enjoying the lovely country of Italy, and its wonderful food, drink, arts, culture, everything. Then we stab it in the back by showing how little we understand anything.
What a bunch of pigs that league of not-gentlemen/women is.

I will look at the Hooper thing.
Nearly every single other piece written has pissed me off grandly.
That these people earn fat salaried but do no work and sit like naughty children copying one another; but how did you catch them all out teacher?

Well, it wasn't exactly what they all got right, it was more that when they got a thing wrong, they all got it wrong in exactly the same way.

It's then I realised they were all cheating.

I would so love one iof them to crack or whatever and come out with the truth, just to show those who have been wicked to the entire world, because they all ought to be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Okay read Hooper, did'nt like it, empty piece, no info, no quotes from anyone but Mellas and Taliban hero Moore.


when Moore said he swept through Taliban land, he meant it literally, dressed as he was in enough kit to sink a Titanic and brushing the yard or whatever it was.

Can just imagine his ex-colleague-pals reading about him now and thinking thank f... we got rid of him.
I reckon he got laid off.
If all the FBI are anything like he is God help poor Americans.

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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Some info, PLEASE.

I know the Prosecution goes first. Then the Defense. THEN, does the Prosecution close, like in the U.S.A.?

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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

I read the Guardian link, Michael. Lots of hedging.

I doubt the Judges will be swayed by this media frenzy.......from journalists, ( I use this word rather freely :( ) who have not exactly done their homework.

I have a feeling..Rudi's putting them there, is going to be something the defense will not be able to overcome. What on Earth does he have to gain, by implicating them? The opposite, because a snitch is not treated well in prison, anywhere.

Whatever the outcome, I will say this. In the majority of people's eyes, she is a murderess. Linked in the same breath as Casey Anthony. It would be another example, as to there is a different outcome for those able to pay for top advocates.

I have faith in the Judicial system in Italy. There is too much evidence remaining to return anything but a guilty verdict. Forza Italia.

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Offline stint7


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

capealadin wrote:
Some info, PLEASE.

I know the Prosecution goes first. Then the Defense. THEN, does the Prosecution close, like in the U.S.A.?


Great Question, Cape.
So great that I really cannot find a definitive answer for you

But looking at the schedule:
As you say, the Prosecution goes first on sep 23-4th
Then Civil Parties the 26th
Then Defense Sollecito the 27th
And Defense Knox the 29th.

Oct 3-4 was scheduled as Rebuttal and Verdict.
Therefore since the defense finished on 29sep, I assume that the Prosecution does get the "rebuttal" last word before verdict.
But it is an assumption on my part

However, as you know, In Italy's Inquisitorial system, the presiding Judge has much more leeway in many areas, including sequencing of arguments.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 - SEPT 22, 11   

picture of a pumpkin
This topic has been locked by a Moderator
Reason: I am now locking this thread. Please continue the discussion in the brand new Main Discussion thread: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -

Thank You
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