Judge Massei Sentencing Report     The Meredith Kercher Fund     The Murder Of Meredith Kercher Wiki     True Justice For Meredith Kercher     Judge Nencini Sentencing Report 


Last visit was: Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:54 pm
It is currently Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:54 pm
All times are UTC

Forum rules

XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 - SEPT 22, 11

Moderators: Nell, Ergon, Michael, Moderators


 Page 1 of 46 [ 11433 posts ]
Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 46  Next
Author Message

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:44 am   Post subject: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 - SEPT 22, 11   

XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 - SEPT 22, 2011






This is the main discussion thread regarding the achievement of truth and justice for Meredith Kercher and her family. Meredith, barely 21 years old, was brutally murdered in her own home on the 1st November 2007 whilst studying in Perugia, Italy.

To read the previous main discussion thread, please view XXI. MAIN DISCUSSION, DEC 21, 10 - JAN 22, 11

Michael (Co-Administrator/Moderator of Perugia Murder File)

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline piktor


User avatar


Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:30 pm

Posts: 1081

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:15 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Quote:
Hello Piktor & good moaning,

Could you see to it to have an array of pram pushers, Fisher pushing whoever, Mellas pushing Wilkes, Preston pushing Moore, baby bonnets all pushing books and their own trumpet blowing?
Feel free to include all those who didn't get a mention in the 'all you need is a murderer club'.

viewtopic.php?p=75321#p75321 .


Zorba,

You ask for a literary Parnassus full of scriber deities. I will humbly try my feeble talents in the face of so a grand endeavor.

Meanwhile, submitted to your attention:

The Lady Preston
paparazzi-ready to make her splash


Attachment:
the lady preston will conquer Italia by hook or crook.jpg


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline The 411


User avatar


Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:49 pm

Posts: 1386

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:18 am   Post subject: OT: "FELINES, nothing more than Felines..."   

Earthling wrote:
Yesterday, snow came down steadily all day. Blizzardy. This morning, outside it looks for all the world like a little kid who misbehaved yesterday, but is happy and bubbly today, as if to say "See? I'm not a bad kid! I'm happy now!"
Attachment:
sunny winter 1-21-2011.JPG

And then the kitty started playing with a ribbon on the table, afterward looking up guiltily:
Attachment:
kitty wiht ribbon 1-21-2011.JPG


Earthy:

I hope I don't sound too much like Judge Heavey or Doug Preston when I say this, but...yes, that cat of yours just "looks" really guilty. You can tell just by looking, you know.

Trust me. I know. I feel it in my (cat)gut.

Sorry to be blunt, Earthy...but I would NEVER let any of my cats room with him. That cat of yours would be a bad influence. I just know he would lead my kitties "a-stray." la-)

You don't need to conduct an investigation with a PURR-fidious puss like that one. You don't need evidence. And with that "look" you can dispense with all the FURR-ensics!! sor-)

I certainly hope he/she gets the full punishment the law allows: i.e., nine lives-sentences. bricks-)

Speaking of cats and justice and newsworthy stories:

Here's a PURRRRRRRfect one for PMF and fur BFQ!!! (Before the serious stuff begins...)


Pet Puss Summoned to Jury huh-)

A pet cat has been summoned for jury duty at an American court in Boston, Massachusetts, despite notification from the owners that the cat was “unable to speak or understand English”.

The pet’s owner wrote to the court that there had been an error, and enclosed a letter from the vet confirming that Tabby Sal was “a domestic short-haired neutered feline”. Nevertheless, a second notification said that Tabby Sal “must attend”.

Tabby Sal’s owner is now left wondering how the cat should reply when the question “guilty or not guilty?” is posed. A website for the US judicial system states that jurors are "not expected to speak perfect English".

Tabby Sal was included in the last census when the owner listed him in the pet’s section provided."

http://algarvedailynews.com/index.php/N ... -jury.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
same story, but...

From The Telegraph (---->WITH PHOTOS of "TABBY SAL"!!) Yay-) mike

CAT ORDERED TO DO JURY SERVICE

5:44PM GMT 17 Jan 2011

Anna Esposito, wrote to Suffolk Superior Crown Court in Boston, US, to explain that a mistake had been made, but a jury commissioner replied saying the cat, named Tabby Sal, "must attend" on March 23.

Mrs Esposito had included a letter from her vet confirming that the cat was "a domestic short-haired neutered feline".

Tabby Sal had been entered by Mrs Esposito under the 'pets' section of the last census. "When they ask him guilty or not guilty? What's he supposed to say - miaow?" She said.

"Sal is a member of the family so I listed him on the last Census form under pets but there has clearly been a mix-up."

A website for the US judicial system states that jurors are "not expected to speak perfect English". cl-) cl-) Well, that makes sense! Remember our American Standards.. US Honors students are not expected to speak perfect English, either!!! :lol:
Top Profile 

Offline Catnip


User avatar


Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:08 am

Posts: 2997

Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:19 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

[ASCA] says the two experts will be sworn in at the 22-January hearing, and that the Court will fix the schedule of future hearings, where 7 witnesses are expected to testify, dismantling Curatolo's version.
Top Profile 

Offline piktor


User avatar


Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:30 pm

Posts: 1081

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:37 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Tabby Sal

Attachment:
tabby sal jury duty cat.jpg


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline The 411


User avatar


Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:49 pm

Posts: 1386

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:08 am   Post subject: Tabby Sal and Feliney Furrensics   

:) Thanks, Piktor!
Here's another pic of the potential juror.

Don't you think Tabby Sal looks an awful lot like attorney Tom's cat/avatar?
Just a coincidence? I dunno for sure, but...
I'm getting .. really sus-pussious. ss-)



P.S. I have yet to see the Piktor Picture at the top of the page ss) ...Do I need to log out and then log in or sumthin like that? is)
Top Profile 

Offline Catnip


User avatar


Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:08 am

Posts: 2997

Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:11 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Re US jury cats:

Makes the claim easier to make that the some of the jurors were sleeping during the trial.

Or licking their paws...

And you can tell when they're paying attention to a good attorney/advocate: the little bells on their necks go ding-a-ling! as they watch the hand-waving intently.
Top Profile 

Offline zorba


User avatar


Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:11 am

Posts: 4233

Location: London

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:16 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Wow Piktor, that is brilliant!
The 1870's baby bonnet(s) fantastic!

You've captured the full evidence of perversity, the noble art in marble and stone, the fantastic sculptures and there leaving a stench, willy nilly auntie Dolly, a day out without the pram, but, could have sworn it's Tootsie, he/she/it, seeing the life works as crack one offery materiali.

Pissed in the fountain and pissed on life, they that stitch up their eyes with garish thread

he's as blind as he can be, just sees what he wants to see nowhere man can you see me at all

Justice today for dear Meredith and her family, because this definitely goes with them everyday, everywhere they go and everywhere they are, those with the cross-stitched up eyes, stitch life up itself, because they cannot understand the principle of do as you would be done by, one of the very best principles for getting along with one another.

Good luck to those kind and true and bad luck to those in court, trying to get away with cold-blooded murder, they deserve bad luck, they've designed it.

Sorry I can't write any better I still have not had any rest lots of work, is good but is a bit much.

Looking forward to seeing Knox and Sollecito be stopped from their vile behaviour

_________________
Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
Ignorance of the law is no excuse
Top Profile 

Offline zorba


User avatar


Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:11 am

Posts: 4233

Location: London

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:24 am   Post subject: Re: Tabby Sal and Feliney Furrensics   

The 411 wrote:
:) Thanks, Piktor!
Here's another pic of the potential juror.

Don't you think Tabby Sal looks an awful lot like attorney Tom's cat/avatar?
Just a coincidence? I dunno for sure, but...
I'm getting .. really sus-pussious. ss-

P.S. I have yet to see the Piktor Picture at the top of the page ss) ...Do I need to log out and then log in or sumthin like that? is)


The cat juror is hilarious

Image at top is grand, weird that u can't see it!

I think re-log

_________________
Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
Ignorance of the law is no excuse
Top Profile 

Offline The 411


User avatar


Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:49 pm

Posts: 1386

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:46 am   Post subject: Just kitten around...   

Catnip wrote:
Re US jury cats:

Makes the claim easier to make that the some of the jurors were sleeping during the trial.

Or licking their paws...

And you can tell when they're paying attention to a good attorney/advocate: the little bells on their necks go ding-a-ling! as they watch the hand-waving intently.


Ha ha, Catnip! :D
You're kind of an expert on the subject...so... do you really think feline jurors would take...catNAPS during the trial?????? mike p-(((

Maybe all cat jurors should be forced to take an oath to remain awake during the trial--They'd have to raise their right paws and all that.

I'm ok with any qualified cats serving as jurors... as long as they don't mistake the jury box for a litter box. :shock:

nw)

Meow for now,
La F'lllina (pron. "Felina?")

P.S. BRAVO, Piktor! I've just now seen your work. May this art display symbolize the beginning of a "banner" year for justice-- for Meredith Kercher.
Top Profile 

Offline The 411


User avatar


Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:49 pm

Posts: 1386

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:52 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Users browsing this forum: wg-))The 411 co-) and 0 guests

HEY!???? Where did everybody go?! It's just me with my bag of cheetos...

OK, I'll try not to take it purrrrrrrsonally. mike
Top Profile 

Offline Catnip


User avatar


Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:08 am

Posts: 2997

Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:03 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

I'm still here:

Users browsing this forum: Catnip, The 411 and 2 guests

It'll be another 4 hours until the prison van arrives and court doors open.

A catnap is a good idea. It's so hot here, watching the oleanders in the light breeze under a full sun.

With Piktor's banner, I feel like I'm in the Hall of Frescoes.
Top Profile 

Offline Catnip


User avatar


Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:08 am

Posts: 2997

Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:34 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Here's a new one: The Age: "Uni student who imported party drug 'meow meow' escapes jail", by Megan Levy:

Meow meow or 4-methylmethcathinone or 4-MMC or Mephedrone.

  • The drug first appeared in France in 2007
  • It has acute psychological and physical effects
  • It is not a controlled substance in Victoria (yet)
  • Malich Coory, 20, pleaded guilty to importing 753 grams and possessing 1.5 kilograms of mephedrone (Federal laws apply)
  • he suffers depression and anxiety, turned to drugs while studying for a Bachelor of Psychological Science at La Trobe University
  • He learned in an internet chatroom how to import the product and began distributing 4-MMC to make money.
  • He told his parents he was importing health supplements, while he also used a false name to import the goods
  • Customs intercepted a package, and during a search warrant found the drug stashed in various hiding places around his bedroom.
  • County Court Judge Jane Patrick said Coory knew he was "on the edge of the illegal drug world, and that you tried to hide your activities from the authorities and your parents"
  • She took into account Coory's early guilty plea, his relatively young age and good prospects for rehabilitation in sentencing him to 22 months in prison.
  • However Judge Patrick ordered him to be released immediately on a $500 recognisance to be of good behaviour for 22 months.

Moral:
Internet chatrooms are dangerous: they tempt you to do things in a sloppy way.

Young squirrel moment:
"stashed in various hiding places around his bedroom"

What if? conjecture:
Not conforming to social norms is behaviour that lies along a spectrum. Here it was: being on the edge of illegality; lying to parents; using a false name; (probably not declaring the income on his taxation return). If he had not been caught, would he have stayed at this end of the behaviour spectrum forever? As the reward of the activity wore off, would he have upped the ante?

I mention this as a real-life example of people choosing whether or not to conform, both broadly socially, and more narrowly to one's youth network.

Judge Heavey (or private citizen Michael Heavey) has made, and continues to make, equally negative conformity decisions relating to the sphere of justice and legal ethics (not to mention evidence and logic). He does not have the advantage of youth, though. Nor the benefit of depression and anxiety. And he has the disadvantage of not pleading early.
Top Profile 

Offline DLW


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:41 pm

Posts: 623

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 4:19 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

‘Knox Back In Court Over Meredith Killing’ by Nick Pisa

Sky News
Top Profile 

Offline bedelia


User avatar


Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:12 am

Posts: 167

Location: New York

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 4:21 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

My court update: The Good News: My 23 yr. old stepson was emancipated retroactively by one year!
The Bad News: His 21 yr old brother was not. He was suspended from the local community college a year ago after failing most of the classes we paid for. The law says that my husband should not have to support him if he doesn't have the academic aptitude. However his mother took both of them to a psychiatrist and had them diagnosed with ADHD (two weeks ago). After the judge scolded the mother and called her negligent for not getting them medical care sooner (the mother is the primary caretaker), the woman judge refused to emancipate him because he had not been allowed the chance to attend college with the benefit of ADHD medication.

The reason I'm posting this personal story is because I see some parallels with this case. I understand very well about 20 somethings who feel entitled, take drugs, and have poor academic attitudes. I also see the work of a mother who has both neglected her children's health and well-being (by not having them diagnosed when they were in middle school and never taking them to the dentist), poisoned them against their father (by showing them the court documents) and calling them "boys". The younger one still doesn't have a driver's license.

Family court gives a break to the mother even when the kid failed most of his classes and hasn't been in school for a year! Of the classes he passed, he got a C in a photography class and a D in an acting class, at a community college.

Thankfully criminal courts are a little tougher and you are not allowed to lie and get away with it. I'm interested in following the events of tomorrow and knowing that in this case at least justice will be done!
Top Profile 

Offline The 411


User avatar


Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:49 pm

Posts: 1386

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:36 am   Post subject: Quarters and Quotes   

HAMMERITE wrote:
"Hi 411,

Great news about the beloved k9.

Somehow I always get the impression when reading your posts (which are extremely enjoyable) that you occupy the Latin Quarter of PMF (something to do with FREE SPIRIT & WAY OUT THERE' ism.). Long may you continue.

H"

____________________________________________________________________
Awhhh, Hammerite.Thank you very much. That's very kind. k-((

I really must ask--When you say "Latin Quarter" would you be referring to the the "Quartier Latin" de Paris in Thoughtful's neck of the woods ? Or rather, the nightclub near Times Square in NYC, of chorus girl and can-can dancer fame?

To paraphrase the saying on a needlepoint pillow I was once given:
"My goal in life is to be what my dog already thinks I am."

AND, this photo, dear Hammer, will illustrate what my dog thinks I am.
Which, IS, for a dog, kinda Latin Quarteresque, isn't it?




As much as I'd like to think of myself as a can-can bon vivant kinda gal, tonight I'm much more of a....duvet-covered hausfrau ...than a Latin Quarter can-can dancer... It's one bitterly cold night (It must be MINUS 153 degrees out tonight, brrrrrrrrrrr!)

Cold enough to be what Catnip's ancestors used to call a "three-dog night." Aussie Shepherds (the human kind of sheep herders, not the Australian Shepherd breed of dog) needed to huddle around multiple dogs in order to get warm enough to fall asleep in the extreme cold. The colder it was outside, the more dogs they needed to keep warm. Ummm..or so I was once told. If not accurate, Catnip will set me straight.

Thinking about the various hardships facing our Board mates Bard, Cape, Smacker, Earthling, Bedelia, unknown other members here at the present time, and ESPECIALLY THE KERCHERS, I am reminded of Plato's great quote:

"Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle."
cu-))

And wise words I came upon recently, with relevance to unspeakable comments made by certain heartless FOA...

"By swallowing evil words, no one has ever harmed his stomach."
--Winston Churchill

BON NUIT to One and All from..."The Latin Quarter" (aka "Chez 411") ;)
Top Profile 

Offline Hammerite


User avatar


Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:46 pm

Posts: 517

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:09 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Hi smacker,

Tough break this with your daughter, hoping all works out for the best. Very best wishes.

H


Last edited by Hammerite on Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Earthling


User avatar


Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:25 pm

Posts: 512

Location: USA

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:10 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Four One One -

I thank you, my cat thanks you for your very witty repartee!!! Yes, she (not "he," humph!) looks rather "guilty" in that pic!

You should have seen the look she gave me yesterday, after she gazed out of her little chair at the endlessly falling snow, and looked back at me, as if to say: wtf)

And I also saw that Cat Summoned to Jury story. It was a spoof, did you realize? Anyway, it was funny. My better-half was called for jury duty, but I told him: Hey he could send the cat instead!!

signing off for now ....
Top Profile 

Offline Fly by Night


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:09 pm

Posts: 1014

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:37 am   Post subject: Re: Quarters and Quotes   

Great news about the beloved k9 and Latin Quarters notwithstanding...

Let's go back, for a moment, to the night of November 5th, 2007. Here's how Andrea Vogt summed up the courtroom testimony:

Sollecito was asked to come back to police headquarters, arriving around 11 p.m.

Knox came with Sollecito that night even though she had not been asked to come in - this according to Monica Napoleoni, head of the Perugia homicide unit.

"They were always together", Napoleoni said, "and did not want to be separated."

While police questioned Sollecito, Knox waited in a side room where policewoman Lorena Zugarini, also present at Knox's questioning, said she saw Knox doing a cartwheel and the splits. Zugarini said she told Knox it was "not the right place" for such activities.

Inspector Rita Ficarra from the Perugia police narcotics unit then began questioning Knox, with Napoleoni checking in occasionally to inform officers of comments Sollecito was making at the same time in another room.

Knox was asked about a lawyer, Ficarra said, but did not have one. Knox was treated seriously, Ficarra said during cross-examination, but never mistreated.

At some point, for some reason, Raffaele told police that Knox left and did not return until 1am. "Raffaele had not given her an alibi, so I asked her about those contradictions," Ficarra said. "I told her if you tell me a lie one time, that is comprehensible, but if you lie again--even if it is a small lie-- it makes you less credible."

As the night wore on, Ficarra said, Knox eventually broke down crying when questioned about the last activity on her cell phone that night. Of initial interest to police was a text message Knox sent to Patrick Lumumba saying she would see him later.

"When I showed her the message she put her head in her hands, started shaking her head, and started crying," Ficarra said. "She said, 'It was him. It was him. He was crazy.'"

Ficarra said the questioning on that evening was suspended when Knox admitted being at the scene of the crime, as is prescribed by Italian law - and the prosecutor was called. This is when Mignini first became involved in the case.

Knox then asked for a pen and paper, which investigators gave her. She wrote a rambling five-page statement saying she was confused, but recalled seeing Lumumba at the apartment. She wrote, "I saw myself cowering in the kitchen with my hands over my ears because in my head I could hear Meredith screaming."

Ficarra testified on the stand that Knox was absolutely not hit, punched, slapped or threatened in any way.

Lumumba's lawyer, Carlo Pacelli, belabored the point prompting the judge to ask what the point was.

"The point is that the Perugia Police Department is not Guantanamo," he said, continuing. "So everything she had said had been offered on her own free will?"

"Yes. I let her rest" Ficarra continued. "I took her down to get some breakfast at the caffeteria. No one ever treated her badly," Ficarra said.

Officer Zugarini, also present for Knox's questioning, testified on the stand that they were careful to follow protocol and added that she had even joked with a colleague about how carefully they were handling the young American, going so far as to even offer her a brioche.

Sollecito, down the hall, claimed that he had asked that his questioning be suspended multiple times to no avail. He complained that the police took his shoes without explaining why and left him barefoot for hours. "I asked for a lawyer and I was told no. I was taken to jail, put in a cell and never allowed to talk with a lawyer, my father or anyone until I went before the investigating judge."
Top Profile 

Offline stilicho


User avatar


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:24 am

Posts: 2492

Location: Western Canada

Highscores: 8

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:17 am   Post subject: Re: Quarters and Quotes   

Fly by Night wrote:
While police questioned Sollecito, Knox waited in a side room where policewoman Lorena Zugarini, also present at Knox's questioning, said she saw Knox doing a cartwheel and the splits. Zugarini said she told Knox it was "not the right place" for such activities.


Fortunately for Zugarini she didn't have $5 and there wasn't a mud puddle nearby.


Fly by Night wrote:
Knox then asked for a pen and paper, which investigators gave her. She wrote a rambling five-page statement saying she was confused, but recalled seeing Lumumba at the apartment. She wrote, "I saw myself cowering in the kitchen with my hands over my ears because in my head I could hear Meredith screaming."


I sure want to see these primary documents. I doubt we'll ever get to but these are key to Knox's mental state at the time. There are a lot of items in that case file that the FOA and the family want to make certain are never ever made public. They alone have the authority to allow them to be released, too. Since we know they read here, how come the FOA members demanding transcripts of the night of 05-06 NOV 2007 don't equally demand the family open up the whole case file for the public to see?

What exactly are they trying to conceal?
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Pelerine


User avatar


Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:19 pm

Posts: 414

Highscores: 2

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:34 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

I am convinced that if there is only the slightest hint for Amanda beeing coerced by the police they would have proudly presented this document - or part of it - to the public.
But beeing the 'key-part' of the upcoming slander trials maybe we will learn a bit more about this statement.

_________________
r-(( Rest in Peace Meredith Kercher r-((
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline equinox


User avatar


Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:22 pm

Posts: 140

Location: WA, USA

Highscores: 7

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:05 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

piktor wrote:
Tabby Sal

Attachment:
tabby sal jury duty cat.jpg



I smell a rat.. err.. a cat!

There is no "pet section" on the census. Give me a break. Rat!
Also, census data is not shared with any other government agency. Double Rat!

There must be another explanation. Bring in Clouseau!
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline norbertc


User avatar


Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:16 am

Posts: 307

Location: France

Highscores: 2

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:10 am   Post subject: Banner Art   

Image

This is spectacular! Is there any chance of obtaining a slightly larger version - just for personal enjoyment?

It's something completely different, but I find myself thinking of this fine Anselm Kiefer creation for the Louvre:



.


Last edited by norbertc on Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Fiona


User avatar


Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:54 am

Posts: 1080

Highscores: 7

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:13 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

I too am much impressed with this banner. Welll done Piktor. I love the colours especially
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline zinnia


User avatar


Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 2:57 am

Posts: 56

Location: Northern California

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:33 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Piktor, please add Meredith to the banner!
I know you can make it a puzzling look twice, three times... or
Why we are all here.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline stilicho


User avatar


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:24 am

Posts: 2492

Location: Western Canada

Highscores: 8

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:06 am   Post subject: Re: Banner Art   

norbertc wrote:
This is spectacular! Is there any chance of obtaining a slightly larger version - just for personal enjoyment?

It's something completely different, but I find myself thinking of this fine Anselm Kiefer creation for the Louvre:


It reminded me more of this:

Image
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline piktor


User avatar


Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:30 pm

Posts: 1081

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:14 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

zinnia wrote:
Piktor, please add Meredith to the banner!
I know you can make it a puzzling look twice, three times... or
Why we are all here.


I woke up this morning with that exact idea in mind. Will do. co-)
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline SomeAlibi


User avatar


Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:23 pm

Posts: 1932

Highscores: 7

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:21 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

piktor wrote:
zinnia wrote:
Piktor, please add Meredith to the banner!
I know you can make it a puzzling look twice, three times... or
Why we are all here.


I woke up this morning with that exact idea in mind. Will do. co-)



I trust in your vision. I have to say, I thought she was entirely within it already...

_________________
What it is is spin lent credence because it's from the mouth of a lawyer. We've seen how much gravitas they can carry merely by saying something is or is not so when often they are speaking as much rubbish as anyone else.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Clander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:26 am

Posts: 855

Location: Rome

Highscores: 77

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:29 am   Post subject: Re: Tabby Sal and Feliney Furrensics   

The 411 wrote:
P.S. I have yet to see the Piktor Picture at the top of the page ss) ...Do I need to log out and then log in or sumthin like that? is)


I forgot to mention this yesterday.
You can see the new banner if you are using the ExtremeDark Red style or if you are logged out of the forum (because the ExtremeDark Red style is the forum's default style).
If you are using the prosilver or the subsilver styles (the styles with the white background), you will not see the banner.

I edited only the "ExtremeDark Red" style for a few reasons:
1) the prosilver and subsilver styles are used only by 5% of registered users (and I'd have to go check how many of those are still active users)
2) the prosilver and subsilver styles have never been modified by anyone (they do not even use the previous banner)
3) the phpbb forum upgrade is based on the ExtremeDark Red style.
4) modifying a banner is not like inserting a link to a new image. Every style has it's own code and one needs to change that code for each and every style.

Anyway, if anyone has any forum-related technical issues, please use the "PMF Technical Help" forum:
viewforum.php?f=11

Thanks.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline The Bard


User avatar


Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:46 pm

Posts: 2486

Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:29 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

SomeAlibi wrote:
piktor wrote:
zinnia wrote:
Piktor, please add Meredith to the banner!
I know you can make it a puzzling look twice, three times... or
Why we are all here.


I woke up this morning with that exact idea in mind. Will do. co-)



I trust in your vision. I have to say, I thought she was entirely within it already...


so did I! It's stunning piktor!!!! Absolute joy to behold!!! Well done and thank you x

_________________
Top Profile 

Offline stilicho


User avatar


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:24 am

Posts: 2492

Location: Western Canada

Highscores: 8

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:39 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Knox is in court now:

BOSTON STANDARD

-------

EDIT: Or maybe not. That story looks like it was printed out from the Holodeck. Anyone have photos yet?


Last edited by stilicho on Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline stilicho


User avatar


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:24 am

Posts: 2492

Location: Western Canada

Highscores: 8

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:41 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

The Bard wrote:
SomeAlibi wrote:
piktor wrote:
zinnia wrote:
Piktor, please add Meredith to the banner!
I know you can make it a puzzling look twice, three times... or
Why we are all here.


I woke up this morning with that exact idea in mind. Will do. co-)



I trust in your vision. I have to say, I thought she was entirely within it already...


so did I! It's stunning piktor!!!! Absolute joy to behold!!! Well done and thank you x


Me too. I didn't want to say anything but I feel that Meredith's presence is already in the banner. It's honest and intelligent. Just how I like my art. And my coffee.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Catnip


User avatar


Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:08 am

Posts: 2997

Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:49 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

The experts have been sworn in and have requested 90 days to carry out their tasks, beginning 11am 09 February. The Court therefore fixed 21 May as the hearing date when the experts' conclusions will be heard. Parties' consultants will also be present, including Stefanoni, for the Prosecutor General. The two experts did not talk to the media on leaving court, other than Vecchiotti saying that she didn't know anything about the Meredith Kercher inquest.


ANSA


Last edited by Catnip on Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top Profile 

Offline Fiona


User avatar


Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:54 am

Posts: 1080

Highscores: 7

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:49 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12258935
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline stilicho


User avatar


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:24 am

Posts: 2492

Location: Western Canada

Highscores: 8

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:52 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

BBC REPORT

Chris Mellas: We have had things go well in the past and still she is in prison.

No s---, Sherlock. That's what happens when you're guilty of murder. Things go really well for a while except you're sentenced to 26 years.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 868

Location: New York

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:52 am   Post subject: Re: Tabby Sal and Feliney Furrensics   

Clander wrote:
1) the prosilver and subsilver styles are used only by 5% of registered users (and I'd have to go check how many of those are still active users)


Hi Clander. I know for a fact some people dont know those color options are there and are not keen to go read PMF in white on black. It may dent the readership.

I have converted some to PMF readers by explaining that black on silver or white is available. It seems to win out in mainstream popularity and to boost reader numbers.

Whatcha think?

Peter

Added: From one of various studies:

Quote:
However, most studies have shown that dark characters on a light background
are superior to light characters on a dark background (when the refresh rate is
fairly high). For example, Bauer and Cavonius (1980) found that participants
were 26% more accurate in reading text when they read it with dark characters
on a light background.

Reference: Bauer, D., & Cavonius, C., R. (1980). Improving the legibility of visual
display units through contrast reversal. In E. Grandjean, E. Vigliani (Eds.),
Ergonomic Aspects of Visual Display Terminals (pp. 137-142).
London: Taylor & Francis


Last edited by Fast Pete on Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline piktor


User avatar


Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:30 pm

Posts: 1081

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:52 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

stilicho wrote:
The Bard wrote:
SomeAlibi wrote:
piktor wrote:
zinnia wrote:
Piktor, please add Meredith to the banner!
I know you can make it a puzzling look twice, three times... or
Why we are all here.


I woke up this morning with that exact idea in mind. Will do. co-)



I trust in your vision. I have to say, I thought she was entirely within it already...


so did I! It's stunning piktor!!!! Absolute joy to behold!!! Well done and thank you x


Me too. I didn't want to say anything but I feel that Meredith's presence is already in the banner. It's honest and intelligent. Just how I like my art. And my coffee.


I sent a new image to Clander with Meredith's picture on it.

Now he will have to decide to update it or not hbc)
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Jools


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

By Nick Pisa for The Telegraph


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Top Profile 

Offline Catnip


User avatar


Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:08 am

Posts: 2997

Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:07 pm   Post subject: Re: Tabby Sal and Feliney Furrensics   

Fast Pete wrote:

I have converted some to PMF readers by explaining that black on silver or white is available. It seems to win out in mainstream popularity and to boost reader numbers.


Pete,

A bright background is not good on the eyes, long term. It's OK for printed books, not screens, because paper reflects light and screens send out light.
It's like looking at sunspots on the sun, trying to read that way for more than a few minutes.
Hopefully those readers are not screen professionals (e.g., journalists etc) or only want to print stuff off.
Eyesight is precious.
Top Profile 

Offline Fiona


User avatar


Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:54 am

Posts: 1080

Highscores: 7

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

I did not know that Catnip and I use this computer a lot. But I cannot bear dark backgrounds: in fact I joined PMF in the first place simply so I could change the skin to something I could read :) Maybe I am unusual but the default is impossible for me if I want to read extensively, as I did when I first came here
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 868

Location: New York

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:13 pm   Post subject: Re: Tabby Sal and Feliney Furrensics   

Catnip wrote:
Fast Pete wrote:

I have converted some to PMF readers by explaining that black on silver or white is available. It seems to win out in mainstream popularity and to boost reader numbers.


Pete,

A bright background is not good on the eyes, long term. It's OK for printed books, not screens, because paper reflects light and screens send out light.
It's like looking at sunspots on the sun, trying to read that way for more than a few minutes.
Hopefully those readers are not screen professionals (e.g., journalists etc) or only want to print stuff off.
Eyesight is precious.


Good morning Catnip.

Yes some are reporters. Most computer workers here seem to uses a light screen. CRT radiation problems are long gone.

And the optional background on PMF is silver not bright white, a sort of dull bluey-gray. There are studies also (I just added one above) saying white on black is more tiring.

My suggestion of course was simply to allow people to choose based on their knowing that there are options. That was all. Black on white was the only scheme for several years here.

Pete
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Clander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:26 am

Posts: 855

Location: Rome

Highscores: 77

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

piktor wrote:
I sent a new image to Clander with Meredith's picture on it.

Now he will have to decide to update it or not hbc)


I too am one of those that feels that Meredith is already in your banner.
That said, I am just the "tech guy".
I wanted to prepare the forum so that it could accommodate your banner.
It only takes 5 seconds now to change the banner (provided that the banner is always a JPG with 900x175 pixels).
Could you please email your new banner to Skep and Michael and let them decide?
Thanks. :)
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Jools


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Nick Pisa is on TV for Sky News reporting live from Perugia and he just said that the two DNA experts have been given 90 days to produce their results.
Top Profile 

Offline stilicho


User avatar


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:24 am

Posts: 2492

Location: Western Canada

Highscores: 8

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:17 pm   Post subject: Re: Tabby Sal and Feliney Furrensics   

Catnip wrote:
Fast Pete wrote:

I have converted some to PMF readers by explaining that black on silver or white is available. It seems to win out in mainstream popularity and to boost reader numbers.


Pete,

A bright background is not good on the eyes, long term. It's OK for printed books, not screens, because paper reflects light and screens send out light.
It's like looking at sunspots on the sun, trying to read that way for more than a few minutes.
Hopefully those readers are not screen professionals (e.g., journalists etc) or only want to print stuff off.
Eyesight is precious.


See, you're an old-timer at this medium. I know from years of working on computers before MicroSoft decided what was right (and bright) that dark backgrounds are far more friendly because the light source is behind the words and not reflecting from them as you read from a book. Users find it to be jarring because they're only accustomed to what the paradigm has provided.

Yet, if you look away from a dark background screen into real life, your eyes don't have to adjust. The real world is dark unless you habitually stare straight into the sun to form your world-view. Didn't Galileo do that? He discovered the sunspots in the same way most of us read words on a computer screen.

Oh, and he went blind, as the story goes.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 868

Location: New York

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Fiona wrote:
I did not know that Catnip and I use this computer a lot. But I cannot bear dark backgrounds: in fact I joined PMF in the first place simply so I could change the skin to something I could read :) Maybe I am unusual but the default is impossible for me if I want to read extensively, as I did when I first came here


Yeah Fiona reminds me. One had to be a member here to change the scheme. Does that still apply?

Pete
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline zinnia


User avatar


Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 2:57 am

Posts: 56

Location: Northern California

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

I didn't mean in any way to detract from the graphic, it indeed is awesome.
It was just my first thought, as in all Piktor's art,
I was looking for the hidden... feeling MK but not seeing her.
Thanks all for taking me the right way.
Looking forward to tomorrow.
Stupid question: Is it Saturday in Italy too?
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Catnip


User avatar


Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:08 am

Posts: 2997

Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Pete,
Quite right: not bright is less tiring that bright.
CRT is different, and long gone.

Fiona,
I set my own settings, overriding page/board settings: more a flight-deck colour scheme, like the old computer-centre IBM gas-plasma screens. (think 2001)
Top Profile 

Offline Clander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:26 am

Posts: 855

Location: Rome

Highscores: 77

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Fast Pete wrote:
Fiona wrote:
I did not know that Catnip and I use this computer a lot. But I cannot bear dark backgrounds: in fact I joined PMF in the first place simply so I could change the skin to something I could read :) Maybe I am unusual but the default is impossible for me if I want to read extensively, as I did when I first came here


Yeah Fiona reminds me. One had to be a member here to change the scheme. Does that still apply?

Pete


Yes, the default style is the dark background one. If you want to be able to use the white background, you need to register and then change the style in your User Control panel.
(please give me 10 mins to answer your previous question. I need to make a couple of calls)
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline stilicho


User avatar


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:24 am

Posts: 2492

Location: Western Canada

Highscores: 8

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jools wrote:
By Nick Pisa for The Telegraph


Are they both back into giggling lovebird mode again?
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Jools


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Request of the prosecution and granted by the court Antonio Curatolo will be on the witness stand again.
http://www.tg1.rai.it/dl/tg1/2010/artic ... 58cb6.html
Top Profile 

Offline Catnip


User avatar


Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:08 am

Posts: 2997

Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

zinnia wrote:
Stupid question: Is it Saturday in Italy too?


Yes. It's about early-to-mid afternoon Saturday there now.
Not a stupid question.

The only stupid question is the unasked one.
Top Profile 

Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2308

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

It seems that the two independent experts are following Luciano Garofano's suggestion that the handle should be separated from the knife:

"Knox's step-father, Chris Mellas, who was in court in Perugia on Saturday, said the independent experts had made a request to open up the handle of the six-inch knife, which was allegedly used as the murder weapon."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12258935
Top Profile 

Offline Catnip


User avatar


Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:08 am

Posts: 2997

Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

The experts:


They asked if they could open up the handle on the knife.

Next hearing dates are:
12 and 26 March, 16 April andl 21 May

[Umbria24].
Top Profile 

Offline ttrroonniicc


Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:12 pm

Posts: 1073

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jools wrote:
By Nick Pisa for The Telegraph

Why is he wearing the purple fingerless gloves (as Knox described him wearing in her "Marie Pace" letter -- described him at the scene of the murder) -- again. Must be an overture to Knox.

They're having such a good time aren't they.
Top Profile 

Offline stilicho


User avatar


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:24 am

Posts: 2492

Location: Western Canada

Highscores: 8

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jools wrote:
Request of the prosecution and granted by the court Antonio Curatolo will be on the witness stand again.
http://www.tg1.rai.it/dl/tg1/2010/artic ... 58cb6.html


It has to be regarding something new. What exactly is this for? They can't ask him the same questions all over again. Are they really going for the Disco Bus Defence?

It's a lose-lose.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline stilicho


User avatar


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:24 am

Posts: 2492

Location: Western Canada

Highscores: 8

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

ttrroonniicc wrote:
Jools wrote:
By Nick Pisa for The Telegraph

Why is he wearing the purple fingerless gloves (as Knox described him wearing in her "Marie Pace" letter -- described him at the scene of the murder) -- again. Must be an overture to Knox.

They're having such a good time aren't they.


I think you're on to something. There is unspoken communication in all human contact but the fingerless gloves are some sort of signal.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Jools


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Trans. from above tg1link:
Antonio Curatolo, already a witness at first instance, will be heard in the appeal trial of Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox for the murder of Meredith Kercher. The Court decided today after received a request from the Attorney General. Curatolo will give testimony as "proved to the contrary" of the [defence] witnesses admitted by the judges on the application of both defendants.
http://www.tg1.rai.it/dl/tg1/2010/artic ... 58cb6.html
Top Profile 

Offline Jools


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

stilicho wrote:
ttrroonniicc wrote:
Jools wrote:
By Nick Pisa for The Telegraph

Why is he wearing the purple fingerless gloves (as Knox described him wearing in her "Marie Pace" letter -- described him at the scene of the murder) -- again. Must be an overture to Knox.

They're having such a good time aren't they.


I think you're on to something. There is unspoken communication in all human contact but the fingerless gloves are some sort of signal.

Papa Sol once said that he wears them all the time because he always feels cold in prison. :roll:
Top Profile 

Offline Catnip


User avatar


Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:08 am

Posts: 2997

Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

stilicho wrote:
Jools wrote:
Request of the prosecution and granted by the court Antonio Curatolo will be on the witness stand again.
http://www.tg1.rai.it/dl/tg1/2010/artic ... 58cb6.html


It has to be regarding something new. What exactly is this for? They can't ask him the same questions all over again. Are they really going for the Disco Bus Defence?

It's a lose-lose.



As Jools says (much quicker than me!).

Curatolo is being recalled as a rebuttal witness:

"Curatolo deporrà come "prova contraria" ai testimoni ammessi dai giudici su istanza delle difese dei due imputati."
(Curatolo will depose [testimony] as "contrary evidence" against the witnesses admitted by the judges on the submission from the defence of the two accused.")
Top Profile 

Offline patches


Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:15 pm

Posts: 24

Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

First time poster here

but I`ve been reading the boards for a good while and must say that the way you guys debate together has prompted me to get involved.

I´ve read so much about this case and so many differing takes on the eventual outcome that it becomes very unclear exactly what the situation is.

Recently I read (think it was on TJMK) that IF the Knife and Bra clips are thrown out this time then they will have to set AK and RS free !!!
but what about all the luminol and circumstantial evidence, surely they aren`t going to get off through a point of law !!!

If their defences( through some miraculous intervention from above) can prove their innocence, then good, but if this case got thrown out on a
technicality how the hell are we going to live with that,
She will return home , recieve the keys to the city of Seattle. Become an honary member of the UoW. Be nominated for Congress. Write a book
called `How our american foxy out foxed the Italien justice system`. Do TV adverts for Procter and Gamble Bleach............. Please tell me somebody
that it won`t happen? But I`m busy looking for a new planet just in case !
Top Profile 

Offline Catnip


User avatar


Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:08 am

Posts: 2997

Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

So, today's hearing, at least the morning session, seems to have been taken up with administrative matters, rather than substantive ones.
Top Profile 

Offline ttrroonniicc


Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:12 pm

Posts: 1073

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:58 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

stilicho wrote:
ttrroonniicc wrote:
Jools wrote:
By Nick Pisa for The Telegraph

Why is he wearing the purple fingerless gloves (as Knox described him wearing in her "Marie Pace" letter -- described him at the scene of the murder) -- again. Must be an overture to Knox.

They're having such a good time aren't they.


I think you're on to something. There is unspoken communication in all human contact but the fingerless gloves are some sort of signal.


The prison charity "Caritas" has confirmed the "story" was written by Amanda Knox -- it describes someone writing a letter of recollections. It was written at the same time, in the same manner as a poem that Sollecito received from Knox during the initial trial -- on valentines day. The letter within the story is described as a "valentines day letter". Described is a party, a house a locked door; the scenario of someone becoming injured and the writers regret. The short "story" describes the cottage and what happened that night.

excerpt:

"I can talk to you of any day, any time. You remember that night, suddenly hot in November? We were lying down on my porch. We sat face to face and you had one leg between mine. You had those purple gloves, without fingers, and hair loose. How beautiful you were! Really, you were incredible, but I do not remember what we were talking about. At one point a car came behind me with the headlights turned on which light illuminated your blond hair. You were like the moon in a blue gloomy landscape. Then the car passed, and darkness lay upon us. It was a long distance like our contact not yet complete."


Last edited by ttrroonniicc on Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:18 pm, edited 11 times in total.
Top Profile 

Offline Jools


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

stilicho wrote:
Jools wrote:
Request of the prosecution and granted by the court Antonio Curatolo will be on the witness stand again.
http://www.tg1.rai.it/dl/tg1/2010/artic ... 58cb6.html


It has to be regarding something new. What exactly is this for? They can't ask him the same questions all over again. Are they really going for the Disco Bus Defence?

It's a lose-lose.

Looks like the defence is really going for the Disco Bus defence and prosecution is bringing back Curatolo to testify again, so it'll be up to the Court to decide. That's all is known at the moment.
Top Profile 

Offline Clander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:26 am

Posts: 855

Location: Rome

Highscores: 77

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:09 pm   Post subject: Re: Tabby Sal and Feliney Furrensics   

Fast Pete wrote:
Clander wrote:
1) the prosilver and subsilver styles are used only by 5% of registered users (and I'd have to go check how many of those are still active users)


Hi Clander. I know for a fact some people dont know those color options are there and are not keen to go read PMF in white on black. It may dent the readership.

I have converted some to PMF readers by explaining that black on silver or white is available. It seems to win out in mainstream popularity and to boost reader numbers.

Whatcha think?

Peter


I hear you Pete.
I too prefer black on white (as long as the white is not really bright).
A few days ago I sent an email to Michael asking if he had ever thought about changing PMF's style because NOW would be a good time to do so (before I proceed even further in the development of the PMF forum upgrade).
In short, his reply to me was that he considered changing it but that the dark background style had become a sort of "PMF trademark style".
So the dark background style will remain PMF's default style.

That said, I have been studying/improving PMF since I got back (well, most evenings at least).
Since I did not install the board, I need to know how everything has been configured.
I have fixed/patched/modified quite a few things already.
However, more has to be done before we can upgrade and I really need to know the forum/server/database inside out before we can upgrade.
For now, I would rather continue improving the security/backup measures I have already taken and fixing other problems.
One of these "problems" is having a white background style that really needs some work.
Once I finish working on the "white background" style, I'll also make sure that users know it's available.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Catnip


User avatar


Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:08 am

Posts: 2997

Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Hi Patches!

Welcome to PMF.

Take it one step at a time.

All things are possible; some things are more possible than others.

Take the knife handle, for instance: when it's opened up, what could they find? Anything? Nothing?

Meredith's DNA (if any) will take some explaining; Amanda's and Raffaele's would not be a surprise, since it's part of his flat's furnishment, and either or both would be expected to have used it during normal activities.

That still leaves the reliability of the trace found on the blade. How strong is the likelihood of contamination? If the experts say "Highly likely", then the Court will be wise not to rely on that evidence in explaining its reasons; if they say "Highly unlikely", then, again, the Court will use that opinion in helping it to reach a decision.

Were Amanda and Raffaele in his flat all night at the time of the murder? There's still a mountain of evidence and inference for the defence to shovel aside to be able to answer that question in their clients' favour.

Except Raffaele isn't quite alibiing Amanda all that much, which is intriguing if they are still supposed to be lovebirds.
Top Profile 

Offline orange


User avatar


Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:36 pm

Posts: 9

Location: England

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Gah! I accidentally typed http://www.perugiamurderfile.com/ into the address bar and the result was scary ss-)
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 868

Location: New York

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:17 pm   Post subject: Re: Tabby Sal and Feliney Furrensics   

Clander wrote:
Fast Pete wrote:
Clander wrote:
1) the prosilver and subsilver styles are used only by 5% of registered users (and I'd have to go check how many of those are still active users)


Hi Clander. I know for a fact some people dont know those color options are there and are not keen to go read PMF in white on black. It may dent the readership.

I have converted some to PMF readers by explaining that black on silver or white is available. It seems to win out in mainstream popularity and to boost reader numbers.

Whatcha think?

Peter


I hear you Pete.
I too prefer black on white (as long as the white is not really bright).
A few days ago I sent an email to Michael asking if he had ever thought about changing PMF's style because NOW would be a good time to do so (before I proceed even further in the development of the PMF forum upgrade).
In short, his reply to me was that he considered changing it but that the dark background style had become a sort of "PMF trademark style".
So the dark background style will remain PMF's default style.

That said, I have been studying/improving PMF since I got back (well, most evenings at least).
Since I did not install the board, I need to know how everything has been configured.
I have fixed/patched/modified quite a few things already.
However, more has to be done before we can upgrade and I really need to know the forum/server/database inside out before we can upgrade.
For now, I would rather continue improving the security/backup measures I have already taken and fixing other problems.
One of these "problems" is having a white background style that really needs some work.
Once I finish working on the "white background" style, I'll also make sure that users know it's available.


This all sounds terrific. Exciting to watch. Like changing the engines when the aircraft is up in the air. I think Meredith's case clearly has a ways to go and as opinion swings and hardens I suspect both our sites will only grow as others fade.

I think Michael and Peggy were a little disappointed to have to move over to a paid-for IP arrangement. It's a real point of pride that we spend so little. Your donated time is valuable I know. Thank you.

Pete
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 868

Location: New York

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

patches wrote:
Recently I read (think it was on TJMK) that IF the Knife and Bra clips are thrown out this time then they will have to set AK and RS free !!!


No. It certainly wasnt on TJMK.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2308

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

patches wrote:
First time poster here

but I`ve been reading the boards for a good while and must say that the way you guys debate together has prompted me to get involved.

I´ve read so much about this case and so many differing takes on the eventual outcome that it becomes very unclear exactly what the situation is.

Recently I read (think it was on TJMK) that IF the Knife and Bra clips are thrown out this time then they will have to set AK and RS free !!!
but what about all the luminol and circumstantial evidence, surely they aren`t going to get off through a point of law !!!


It hasn't been claimed on TJMK that Knox and Sollecito will be acquitted, if the double DNA knife and bra clasp are thrown own.

Luciano Garofano thinks that Meredith's blood might have seeped into the knife's handle and said he would have separated the handle from the knife and checked. The two independent experts have requested permission to do this. It would be an unexpected sting in the tail, if they found more of Merdith's DNA.
Top Profile 

Offline Jools


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

:lol: :lol: :lol: Chris Mellas is on television now -Sky News- looking really ridiculous with his grey cap!

Mellas: Our lawyers are confident that they will be able to discredit key evidence.
Top Profile 

Offline SomeAlibi


User avatar


Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:23 pm

Posts: 1932

Highscores: 7

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

The experts have requested to be able to break open the knife handle - yes! Now come on judges, grant that request, please grant it. It cannot be right not to look at the possibility and if (it's a large if) it is granted then imagine the possible scenario - traces of Meredith's DNA/blood are found in the cracks of the joining...

...there is no recovery from such a scenario. Forget it. The parade can stop. Meredith and her family get their justice finally complete. Perversely, Deanna, Delaney, Edda, Curt, Chris, Papa Doc, Vanessa, the pro-Knox camp all get their lives back, hell we all get a bit of our lives back because finally the charade is over and all that is left is the terrible realisation that something inexplicable and horrible that AK&RS's family could never believe could be possible was indeed what happened. The scenario I've seen played over a hundred times over with that "impossible" truth becoming clear, happens again. Crushing, terrible, appalling as the moment falls on the family of the properly convicted, but ultimately better for all involved. For the magnitude of the lies, the wasting of the court time, the destroying of further lives, the sentences are even increased.

If I was a judge in that court, I would be watching the reactions to any granting of that request closely. No guarantees, but if it is granted, and please god it is, I guarantee you that Amanda and Raffaele will spend the next 90 days absolutely shitting themselves.

_________________
What it is is spin lent credence because it's from the mouth of a lawyer. We've seen how much gravitas they can carry merely by saying something is or is not so when often they are speaking as much rubbish as anyone else.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 868

Location: New York

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

stilicho wrote:
Jools wrote:
Request of the prosecution and granted by the court Antonio Curatolo will be on the witness stand again.
http://www.tg1.rai.it/dl/tg1/2010/artic ... 58cb6.html


It has to be regarding something new. What exactly is this for? They can't ask him the same questions all over again. Are they really going for the Disco Bus Defence?

It's a lose-lose.


Would it not be simply to rebut the defense witnesses who want to challenge him?

With the drug charges now hanging over him that the prosecution has thoughtfully directed his way his memory now should be quite amazing... :-)

The prosecution here never loses one trick.

Pete


Last edited by Fast Pete on Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Fiona


User avatar


Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:54 am

Posts: 1080

Highscores: 7

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Am I right in thinking that the two main planks of the appeal are discrediting the dna evidence: and discrediting Curatolo? Or is that just the first things addressed?
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Catnip


User avatar


Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:08 am

Posts: 2997

Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Interesting:

Monica Napoleoni, Head of Homicide in the Perugia Flying Squad, and Municipal Police Officer Isabella Lucarelli will testify about the disco buses and the other tourist buses in Piazza Grimana that evening.

"Saranno ascoltati anche i dirigente della sezione omicidi della squadra mobile di Perugia Monica Napoleoni e dell'ufficiale della polizia municipale Isabella Lucarelli che deporranno sugli autobus diretti alla discoteche e di altri pullman turistici nella stessa zona di via Grimana che quella sera, a pochi metri dalla casa degli orrori, svolgevano la loro attività notturna."
-- [Virgilio]
Top Profile 

Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2308

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

SomeAlibi wrote:
The experts have requested to be able to break open the knife handle - yes! Now come on judges, grant that request, please grant it. It cannot be right not to look at the possibility and if (it's a large if) it is granted then imagine the possible scenario - traces of Meredith's DNA/blood are found in the cracks of the joining...


If Meredith's had blood seeped into the knife handle, it would have been very difficult for Knox and Sollecito to have completely removed the traces of Meredith's DNA and blood.
Top Profile 

Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 868

Location: New York

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Fiona wrote:
Am I right in thinking that the two main planks of the appeal are discrediting the dna evidence: and discrediting Curatolo? Or is that just the first things addressed?


Thats it unless the tests all fail to corroborate at which point there would be motions for more. For now Alessi and Aviello seem to have gone AWOL.

They are, you know, the trump cards in reserve... Seems no Bongiorno in court today. Another AWOL. By May the court could be a bleak empty place.

Pete
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2308

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Catnip wrote:
Interesting:

Monica Napoleoni, Head of Homicide in the Perugia Flying Squad, and Municipal Police Officer Isabella Lucarelli will testify about the disco buses and the other tourist buses in Piazza Grimana that evening.

"Saranno ascoltati anche i dirigente della sezione omicidi della squadra mobile di Perugia Monica Napoleoni e dell'ufficiale della polizia municipale Isabella Lucarelli che deporranno sugli autobus diretti alla discoteche e di altri pullman turistici nella stessa zona di via Grimana che quella sera, a pochi metri dalla casa degli orrori, svolgevano la loro attività notturna."
-- [Virgilio]


This is extremely interesting. Thoughtful has pointed out that the disco buses are very different to the public buses. However, I wonder if the tourists buses are similar to the disco buses.
Top Profile 

Offline Underhill


Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:56 pm

Posts: 80

Location: Suffolk, UK

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

SomeAlibi wrote:
The experts have requested to be able to break open the knife handle...


Have the defence raised any objections to doing this?
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Catnip


User avatar


Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:08 am

Posts: 2997

Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Fiona wrote:
Am I right in thinking that the two main planks of the appeal are discrediting the dna evidence: and discrediting Curatolo? Or is that just the first things addressed?


The main plank is trying to discredit everything possible.

DNA was hotly contested, so the Court wants to be as certain as possible about it. (Which is good).

Defence have found new evidence (the Disco Bus gambit), and the Court is admitting the new evidence (again, good).

The more evidence/knowledge it has, the more certain its decision can be.

All the other defence submussions were rejected*, leading to the inference that the Court feels sufficiently certain about those aspects.

I wonder if the knife handle is removable with a screw by mere mortals (e.g., students), or if it is welded/moulded on and has to be broken off, and/or has hard-to-reach places, nooks and crannies, to clean?

*Edited to add:
I should say, the Court reserved its decision about whether to hear Aviello and Alessi.


Last edited by Catnip on Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top Profile 

Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 868

Location: New York

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

The Machine wrote:
This is extremely interesting. Thoughtful has pointed out that the disco buses are very different to the public buses. However, I wonder if the tourists buses are similar to the disco buses.


The city buses cant get through that narrow city gate on the piazza and so on up to the discos which are half way up the hill. They are huge and made me laugh how they roar around. They do have ways to get to the top of the massif but not this way.

Hence the disco buses. I wouldnt be surprised if the tourist buses and disco buses are actually the same buses just used at different times.

Pete

Added: These are the streets on or off which the relevant discos are:

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php ... ths_house/
http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php ... ths_house/


Last edited by Fast Pete on Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Catnip


User avatar


Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:08 am

Posts: 2997

Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Underhill wrote:
SomeAlibi wrote:
The experts have requested to be able to break open the knife handle...


Have the defence raised any objections to doing this?


None has been reported so far.

Also, it is the defence who have asked for the knife to be re-examined. They are hoping for negative results, and a confirmation of contamination.
Top Profile 

Offline stint7


User avatar


Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:07 pm

Posts: 1582

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Raffie changes his hair style frequently, but not his glove styles or greeting gestures

Also noted that Court schedule announced today (four hearings over next four months) is dramatically reduced from previously 'reported' every saturday.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Top Profile 

Offline SomeAlibi


User avatar


Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:23 pm

Posts: 1932

Highscores: 7

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

The Machine wrote:
SomeAlibi wrote:
The experts have requested to be able to break open the knife handle - yes! Now come on judges, grant that request, please grant it. It cannot be right not to look at the possibility and if (it's a large if) it is granted then imagine the possible scenario - traces of Meredith's DNA/blood are found in the cracks of the joining...


If Meredith's had blood seeped into the knife handle, it would have been very difficult for Knox and Sollecito to have completely removed the traces of Meredith's DNA and blood.



Yes, good point Machine for fleshing this out for anyone reading who doesn't know the context: the join of the handle to the metal of the knife blade which is *inside* the handle is often susceptible to partial porousness / imperfect joins. In the same way you can clean a surface of blood but luminol can show traces in the harder to reach cracks, the DNA can be lodged inside the handle and be less susceptible to being diluted out in totality from a very prolonged soaking / drenching. We already know that the trace that was found was only found because there were scratches on the knife blade and this gave somewhere for the DNA to lodge. Now there's no definitive hope because for a start it depends how deep the knife wound went and how the blade was shepherded and cleaned thereafter. If the blood didn't go to the hilt in the blow (it didn't) and it is cleaned with say tissue paper away from the hilt and then later the blade is cleaned in a tip-down orientation with a lot of running wayer, there may be no mechanism for blood to be within it but in certain circumstances the interior of the knife handle could be a strong candidate also. I have everything crossed.

_________________
What it is is spin lent credence because it's from the mouth of a lawyer. We've seen how much gravitas they can carry merely by saying something is or is not so when often they are speaking as much rubbish as anyone else.


Last edited by SomeAlibi on Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Jools


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

From UmbriaJournal:

The two experts announced that operations will begin on February 9 at 11.00 at the Laboratory of Forensic Genetics, Department of Forensic Medicine of the University La Sapienza.

The Court has therefore set May 21 to be the hearing day in which the two experts will report their findings.

The examinations will be held in the presence of the other parties consultants. Among them will be, for the attorney general, Dr. Patrizia Stefanoni, technician director of the forensic laboratory that conducted the investigations.

Leaving the courthouse the two experts did not want to speak with reporters about the investigation that are expected to conduct. Professor Vecchiotti merely say that she knew nothing of the investigation related to the Kercher murder.
http://www.umbriajournal.com/mediacente ... -su-d.html
Top Profile 

Offline Underhill


Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:56 pm

Posts: 80

Location: Suffolk, UK

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

stint7 wrote:
Raffie changes his hair style frequently, but not his glove styles or greeting gestures....


So much for my ability to read body language! I completely misunderstood the gesture in that latest picture. I had mentally added the caption "I'm desperate for a spliff!"
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline ttrroonniicc


Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:12 pm

Posts: 1073

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

stint7 wrote:
Raffie changes his hair style frequently, but not his glove styles or greeting gestures
(pictures snipped)

Smirking killer.
Top Profile 

Offline Popper


Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:36 am

Posts: 266

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

patches wrote:
First time poster here

but I`ve been reading the boards for a good while and must say that the way you guys debate together has prompted me to get involved.

I´ve read so much about this case and so many differing takes on the eventual outcome that it becomes very unclear exactly what the situation is.

Recently I read (think it was on TJMK) that IF the Knife and Bra clips are thrown out this time then they will have to set AK and RS free !!!
but what about all the luminol and circumstantial evidence, surely they aren`t going to get off through a point of law !!!

If their defences( through some miraculous intervention from above) can prove their innocence, then good, but if this case got thrown out on a
technicality how the hell are we going to live with that,
She will return home , recieve the keys to the city of Seattle. Become an honary member of the UoW. Be nominated for Congress. Write a book
called `How our american foxy out foxed the Italien justice system`. Do TV adverts for Procter and Gamble Bleach............. Please tell me somebody
that it won`t happen? But I`m busy looking for a new planet just in case !


They will hardly be acquitted. Most likely the new experts give an opinion on the work done in the past it will hardly be conclusive. Many experts have been heard already so it will be another opinion. However let us assume a few scenarios.

My view is the following:

CASE 1 - DNA on bra clasp confirmed
RS - AK position unchanged, regardless if DNA confirmed or rejected on knife. It is unthinkable RS did it without AK.

CASE 2 - DNA on bra clasp rejected AND DNA of both MK/AK on knife confirmed
RS - AK - position unchanged as MK never went to RS'

CASE 3 - DNA on bra clasp rejected AND on knife DNA of MK confirmed while DNA of AK rejected
Same as Case 2

CASE 4 - DNA on bra clasp rejected AND DNA on knife of AK confirmed while DNA of MK rejected
AK may have used knife at RS'
RS - chances of acquittal go up from 2 to 4%
AK - chances improve but still below 1% - there is too much against her to give concrete chances of acquittal

CASE 5 - DNA on bra clasp rejected AND DNAon knife of both MK/AK rejected
same as case 4
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Earl Grey


User avatar


Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:38 pm

Posts: 236

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jools wrote:
By Nick Pisa for The Telegraph



Raffaele looks like the Artful Dodger in this picture... or like someone who´s about to crack the combination lock of a safe.
And he never ceases to surprise with his hairstyles.
But the most interesting aspect of this picture is the crafty devil-may-care look. I wonder if it might just be some residual, hand-me-down madness he acquired from Amanda. In more ways than one, those six days they spent together have had a lasting effect on Raffaele.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Jools


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Catnip wrote:
Underhill wrote:
SomeAlibi wrote:
The experts have requested to be able to break open the knife handle...


Have the defence raised any objections to doing this?


None has been reported so far.

Also, it is the defence who have asked for the knife to be re-examined. They are hoping for negative results, and a confirmation of contamination.


Here is one report about that. Sorry no time to translate now, I'm late for lunch.

Basically says that defence did not raised any objections as predicted. But the other parties, prosecution and Meredith's lawyer did raised strong objections. Court still has to decide.
http://www.umbria24.it/omicidio-meredit ... 16995.html
Top Profile 

Offline piktor


User avatar


Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:30 pm

Posts: 1081

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Clander wrote:
piktor wrote:
I sent a new image to Clander with Meredith's picture on it.

Now he will have to decide to update it or not hbc)


I too am one of those that feels that Meredith is already in your banner.
That said, I am just the "tech guy".
I wanted to prepare the forum so that it could accommodate your banner.
It only takes 5 seconds now to change the banner (provided that the banner is always a JPG with 900x175 pixels).
Could you please email your new banner to Skep and Michael and let them decide?
Thanks. :)


Oops, already sent it to you. bu-)

I agree with Michael the dark background is a PMF trademark color. pp-(
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline patches


Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:15 pm

Posts: 24

Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Thanks very much Catnip and Machine,
But am I right then in assuming that the bathmat, the luminol prints, the mixed swabs from the bathroom, the shoe print (size 36 to 38) on the pillow,
the circumstantial evidence, the faked break in through F`s window etc etc are NOT contested here and will definatly be taken into consideration at the end of appeal ? Because if that is so then that would tend to calm me down somewhat !
Top Profile 

Offline ttrroonniicc


Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:12 pm

Posts: 1073

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Earl Grey wrote:
Jools wrote:
By Nick Pisa for The Telegraph



Raffaele looks like the Artful Dodger in this picture... or like someone who´s about to crack the combination lock of a safe.
And he never ceases to surprise with his hairstyles.
But the most interesting aspect of this picture is the crafty devil-may-care look. I wonder if it might just be some residual, hand-me-down madness he acquired from Amanda. In more ways than one, those six days they spent together have had a lasting effect on Raffaele.

The short haircut has highlighted the prison pallor of his face. Much like Knox recently -- he's aligning himself with Knox ... also notice the wide lapel coat -- like Knox wears. It's all a game to Sollecito. What they think was good news recently despite the mass of evidence against them and they are loons again -- they must get something out of it - having a really good time. The circus goes on. They are not acting like wrongly accused people.
Top Profile 

Offline Catnip


User avatar


Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:08 am

Posts: 2997

Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

[ADN Kronos] says that Knox defence objected to all the prosecution rebuttal witnesses relating to the disco buses, and the Sollecito defence only objected to Curatolo.

Opening the knife handle is, technically, not part of the request the experts were tasked with. If they are of the opinion that it is "absolutely necessary", the Court said, then they should put a specific question which will then be evaluated ("dovranno porre un quesito specifico che verrà valutato successivamente").
Top Profile 

Offline bobc


Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:23 pm

Posts: 69

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

SomeAlibi wrote:
The Machine wrote:
SomeAlibi wrote:
The experts have requested to be able to break open the knife handle - yes! Now come on judges, grant that request, please grant it. It cannot be right not to look at the possibility and if (it's a large if) it is granted then imagine the possible scenario - traces of Meredith's DNA/blood are found in the cracks of the joining...


If Meredith's had blood seeped into the knife handle, it would have been very difficult for Knox and Sollecito to have completely removed the traces of Meredith's DNA and blood.



Yes, good point Machine for fleshing this out for anyone reading who doesn't know the context: the join of the handle to the metal of the knife blade which is *inside* the handle is often susceptible to partial porousness / imperfect joins. In the same way you can clean a surface of blood but luminol can show traces in the harder to reach cracks, the DNA can be lodged inside the handle and be less susceptible to being diluted out in totality from a very prolonged soaking / drenching. We already know that the trace that was found was only found because there were scratches on the knife blade and this gave somewhere for the DNA to lodge. Now there's no definitive hope because for a start it depends how deep the knife wound went and how the blade was shepherded and cleaned thereafter. If the blood didn't go to the hilt in the blow (it didn't) and it is cleaned with say tissue paper away from the hilt and then later the blade is cleaned in a tip-down orientation with a lot of running wayer, there may be no mechanism for blood to be within it but in certain circumstances the interior of the knife handle could be a strong candidate also. I have everything crossed.

From the pictures I have seen the knife appears to be a moulded type, so I think it is less likely for there to be any hidden DNA, but it is sensible to look. I can't really see any scenario where this helps the defense though.
Top Profile 

Offline piktor


User avatar


Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:30 pm

Posts: 1081

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Fiona wrote:
Am I right in thinking that the two main planks of the appeal are discrediting the dna evidence: and discrediting Curatolo? Or is that just the first things addressed?


"While the evidence review is being carried out, the trial will continue with witnesses sought by the defense aimed at challenging the reliability of a key prosecution witness who said he had seen Knox and Sollecito by the house the night of the murder. Knox and Sollecito insist they were at Sollecito's house.

The next hearing is on March 12."- AP

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... 09449c2c37
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline bucketoftea


User avatar


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:09 pm

Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

The Machine wrote:
Catnip wrote:
Interesting:

Monica Napoleoni, Head of Homicide in the Perugia Flying Squad, and Municipal Police Officer Isabella Lucarelli will testify about the disco buses and the other tourist buses in Piazza Grimana that evening.

"Saranno ascoltati anche i dirigente della sezione omicidi della squadra mobile di Perugia Monica Napoleoni e dell'ufficiale della polizia municipale Isabella Lucarelli che deporranno sugli autobus diretti alla discoteche e di altri pullman turistici nella stessa zona di via Grimana che quella sera, a pochi metri dalla casa degli orrori, svolgevano la loro attività notturna."
-- [Virgilio]


This is extremely interesting. Thoughtful has pointed out that the disco buses are very different to the public buses. However, I wonder if the tourists buses are similar to the disco buses.


Very interesting. Probably! Potentially many. A good friend of mine is an executive chef who conducts culinary tours and hires buses large and small. There are others besides big tour operators, too.
Top Profile 

Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 868

Location: New York

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Catnip wrote:
[ADN Kronos] says that Knox defence objected to all the prosecution rebuttal witnesses relating to the disco buses, and the Sollecito defence only objected to Curatolo.

Opening the knife handle is, technically, not part of the request the experts were tasked with. If they are of the opinion that it is "absolutely necessary", the Court said, then they should put a specific question which will then be evaluated ("dovranno porre un quesito specifico che verrà valutato successivamente").


Looks like the defenses phrased their demands re the knife very carefully.

No mention yet of Alessi and Aviello as witnesses - or of Rudy Guede.

If there is to be a hail-Mary escalation we didnt see it today.

Pete
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Catnip


User avatar


Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:08 am

Posts: 2997

Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

[Libero] adds a detail about the buses:

The prosecution witnesses will testify that "that night there were, however, buses in transit in the piazza in question and various venues were open" ("quella sera c'erano comunque degli autobus in transito nella piazza in questione e alcuni locali erano aperti.")

-------
The defence have the harder task of saying no discoes were open and no buses were running, rather than saying two discoes were closed and their buses weren't running. Further, they have to say there were no buses at all, disco or otherwise, which is why I would have expected the municipal officer to be called by them, rather than by the prosecution.

Still, they have to try.
Top Profile 

Offline bucketoftea


User avatar


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:09 pm

Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

About 1, 040,000 results (0.14 seconds) is the Google results for "guided tours of Perugia"; so many on the first page are the kind of accommodation-inclusive you expect woud be running buses.


Last edited by bucketoftea on Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top Profile 

Offline Fiona


User avatar


Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:54 am

Posts: 1080

Highscores: 7

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Fast Pete wrote:
Fiona wrote:
Am I right in thinking that the two main planks of the appeal are discrediting the dna evidence: and discrediting Curatolo? Or is that just the first things addressed?


Thats it unless the tests all fail to corroborate at which point there would be motions for more. For now Alessi and Aviello seem to have gone AWOL.

They are, you know, the trump cards in reserve... Seems no Bongiorno in court today. Another AWOL. By May the court could be a bleak empty place.

Pete


So the defence considers that if they can cast doubt on the dna evidence that will, of itself, be enough to overturn the conviction? I am extremely dubious about that.

The knife re-examination will presumably comprise a review of the procedures in the lab which revealed MK's dna on the blade. There is no spare material, so they cannot do the test again. That being so there are a number of suggestions as to how this can be undermined:1. the possibility of contamination;2. the ground breaking nature of the test; 3. the subjective assessment which leads to the conclusion it is MK's dna from interpretation of the findings. I think that is them all, but do correct me if I am wrong.

1. Let us suppose that the procedures were not perfect in the collection of the evidence. For the knife it would surprise me if there were a source of contamination at the scene of collection, because it is my understanding that the people who collected the knife were not the same people who made collections at the cottage. As there is no evidence that MK was ever at RS's house that leaves transfer by AK or RS. That is not very likely and I think we can rule it out.

Similarly there is no source for contamination of the bra clasp at the scene. RS was not in MK's room and there is no other dna in there. It has been suggested that he might have touched the bra some other place (laundry etc) but this is where the decision makers must use their judgement: is it more likely that such a transfer would result in RS leaving such a very clear trace compared to any other partial profiles which might be present? I suppose it is possible he moved the laundry and was the last to touch that bra. When did he do this? As I understand it MK was in the flat with RS and AK on the afternoon before her death. I assume she was clothed before she left her room. Perhaps she changed before she went out: that is not unlikely. But has anyone said she picked up the bra she was wearing from the drier that afternoon? I have not seen it, if they have. Seems to me she dressed in clothes which were in her room. So when did RS get the opportunity to leave his dna on the bra? If I move laundry from the drier I move it all. I do not pick up one bra, unless I am going to wear that. Why would RS do that? Not to make space, for they did no laundry that day. I suppose it could have fallen off the drier and he picked it up and put it back. Unlucky that he just happened to pick it up by the clasp: and he just happened to put it back: and she just happened to need that bra cos all her others were dirty.... it is another of those series of unfortunate coincidences which just begin to look unilikely when stacked up. So it seems to me.

So any contamination must have happened in the lab. The lab procedures were reviewed and found to be fine. There is no other contamination of the sort one might expect with sloppy procedures, so far as I know. For example there is no trace of any of the lab personnel's dna on any item: no trace of any other resident in the flat, so far as I am aware. In order to show contamination they have to establish a failure to follow protocol: but also that the failure happened only twice: for the bra clasp and for the knife. If they do not do that then they must discard all the dna evidence surely? Including RG's. In that case it would seem the case must be decided on the basis of the other evidence and the question is, is that sufficient to convict? I think it is. If I am wrong then what evidence is left which is stronger against RG than the others? Some bloody hand/fingerprints? RG does not deny he was there after MK was injured. With no dna evidence against him what is to implicate him in the crime? Seems to me it is exactly the same kind of evidence which is against the others: only less so. There is no evidence of him in the small bathroom: none in Filomena's room. Yet the killers were certainly in both.

2. It is perfectly possible that the dna evidence on the knife will be excluded because the procedure used has not been replicated or validated. In that case the knife dna is thrown out, but all other dna is intact. So there is still the mixed traces in the footprints and there is still the bra clasp. Dont see that this helps very much.

I understand that it is also claimed that RS' dna on the bra clasp is LCN and so should not be admitted. But I believe it is admissible in Italy, so that does not seem to be a substantive point. But let us suppose that argument is accepted after the new review. That has the same effect as 1. except that it does not result in exclusion of RG's dna. The mixed profiles in the footprints also remain. This might help RS: don't see that it helps AK though.

3. The new experts will examine the profiles and it is possible they will decide that the dna on the knife is not MK's. And/or that the dna on the clasp is not RS's. I think this is unlikely because the defence experts have not made this claim so far as I know. But let us suppose that is their conclusion. Do they do the same test on RG' dna in the murder room? If not, why not? My understanding is that the kind of test done was less reliable because it is not sufficient to narrow the profile down to an individual. So if they conclude the bra clasp dna and the knife dna cannot be attributed with certainty then they must surely come to the same conclusion about RG? I may be missing something here so correct me if I am wrong. If that is correct then I hope the court tasked the review to re-examine ALL of the dna evidence. But I understand they did not: so it seems to me that this possibility is not being seriously considered. As the defence accepted that the profiles belong to those they are attributed to that is not that surprising, perhaps.

There is the request to dismantle the knife. It should have been done at the outset and I am glad they are going to do that. But I do not expect much to come out of it. Either there is no more to be found: in which case we have learned not much at all and are where we were: or there is. If there is more of MK's dna it is game over, I think. If there is someone else's dna then what will that tell us? We might expect RS's: it suprised me his is not there at all and so it would add nothing except support that AK cleaned it last. We might expect the cutler's dna and I do not know if he or she will be traceable: but a new profile need not have anything to do with the murder for that reason. In short nothing is of any significance unless more of MK's dna is found. I think that is a strange gamble for the defence to take: but it is their call. What am I missing here?
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline bobc


Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:23 pm

Posts: 69

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:32 pm   Post subject: Re: Tabby Sal and Feliney Furrensics   

Clander wrote:
Fast Pete wrote:
Clander wrote:
1) the prosilver and subsilver styles are used only by 5% of registered users (and I'd have to go check how many of those are still active users)


Hi Clander. I know for a fact some people dont know those color options are there and are not keen to go read PMF in white on black. It may dent the readership.

I have converted some to PMF readers by explaining that black on silver or white is available. It seems to win out in mainstream popularity and to boost reader numbers.

Whatcha think?

Peter


I hear you Pete.
I too prefer black on white (as long as the white is not really bright).
A few days ago I sent an email to Michael asking if he had ever thought about changing PMF's style because NOW would be a good time to do so (before I proceed even further in the development of the PMF forum upgrade).
In short, his reply to me was that he considered changing it but that the dark background style had become a sort of "PMF trademark style".
So the dark background style will remain PMF's default style.

That said, I have been studying/improving PMF since I got back (well, most evenings at least).
Since I did not install the board, I need to know how everything has been configured.
I have fixed/patched/modified quite a few things already.
However, more has to be done before we can upgrade and I really need to know the forum/server/database inside out before we can upgrade.
For now, I would rather continue improving the security/backup measures I have already taken and fixing other problems.
One of these "problems" is having a white background style that really needs some work.
Once I finish working on the "white background" style, I'll also make sure that users know it's available.


I am very grateful that you provide an alternative scheme to the default light on dark, those give me a headache after a few minutes. I simply don't read websites with dark backgrounds! On the flipside, I have used computer screens professionally for 25+ years and have never had a problem with dark on light schemes. Horses for courses perhaps, it is good that people have a choice to suit their preference.

To reassure anyone who might be worried, there is no chance that the brightness of a computer screen would cause eye damage. The brightness of the sun is completely different in magnitude. Of course, there are problems associated with any long term use of displays, as with any workplace equipment, and sensible assessment and adjustments should be made to suit the user.
Top Profile 

Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2308

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Catnip wrote:
[Libero] adds a detail about the buses:

The prosecution witnesses will testify that "that night there were, however, buses in transit in the piazza in question and various venues were open" ("quella sera c'erano comunque degli autobus in transito nella piazza in questione e alcuni locali erano aperti.")


I was certain that there would have been other buses in Piazza Grimana on 1 November 2007 and it seems that this will be confirmed by the prosecution witnesses. Antonio Curatolo's testimony still stands up to scrutiny.

Some journalists seemed to think the fact that two clubs hadn't provided disco buses that evening was a significant blow to the prosecution's case. I wonder if they will report the news that there are prosecution witness who will testify that were buses running in Piazza Grimana after all.
Top Profile 

Offline The 411


User avatar


Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:49 pm

Posts: 1386

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:06 pm   Post subject: Stefano Conti & Carla Vecchiotti   



Today the Court appointed (and have already sworn in) University of Rome forensic medicine experts Stefano Conti and Carla Vecchiotti to examine the bra clasp and knife.

These experts will have 90 days to complete this work, which will take place in the Laboratory of Genetic Forensics in the Forensic Medicine Department.

May 22nd is the date of the hearing when these experts will report their results.

ttp://giornaleitaliano.info/omicidio-me ... u-dna-6566
Top Profile 

Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2308

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Fiona wrote:
I understand that it is also claimed that RS' dna on the bra clasp is LCN and so should not be admitted. But I believe it is admissible in Italy, so that does not seem to be a substantive point.


Sollecito's DNA on Meredith's bra clasp wasn't LCN DNA.
Top Profile 

Offline stint7


User avatar


Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:07 pm

Posts: 1582

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Wonder what Counsellor Dalla Vedova said that got such a reaction as Amanda removed coat and sat down today ??

Caption anyone ??


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Top Profile 

Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 868

Location: New York

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Fiona wrote:
Fast Pete wrote:
Fiona wrote:
Am I right in thinking that the two main planks of the appeal are discrediting the dna evidence: and discrediting Curatolo? Or is that just the first things addressed?


Thats it unless the tests all fail to corroborate at which point there would be motions for more. For now Alessi and Aviello seem to have gone AWOL.

They are, you know, the trump cards in reserve... Seems no Bongiorno in court today. Another AWOL. By May the court could be a bleak empty place.

Pete


So the defence considers that if they can cast doubt on the dna evidence that will, of itself, be enough to overturn the conviction? I am extremely dubious about that.


Is that a question to me? If it is I didnt say that. I dont believe that they believe that is enough for a moment. I merely listed what Hellman has so far allowed.

As I've been posting on TJMK everything that they ask for can blow up in their faces. This is a minefield for them. Alessi and Aviello and Guede are 3 of the mines.

Pete
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline patches


Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:15 pm

Posts: 24

Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Thank you Fiona for your analysis regarding the appeal.

What you are saying then in effect is , even if the bra clasp and knife got thrown out, then everything else found in the house is not contested. that is if
I understood properly. Do you know if that includes the shoe print on the pillow belonging to AK ?
Was the body moved after the murder? is that also proven ?
Top Profile 

Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 868

Location: New York

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Fiona wrote:
Fast Pete wrote:
Fiona wrote:
Am I right in thinking that the two main planks of the appeal are discrediting the dna evidence: and discrediting Curatolo? Or is that just the first things addressed?


Thats it unless the tests all fail to corroborate at which point there would be motions for more. For now Alessi and Aviello seem to have gone AWOL.

They are, you know, the trump cards in reserve... Seems no Bongiorno in court today. Another AWOL. By May the court could be a bleak empty place.

Pete


So the defence considers that if they can cast doubt on the dna evidence that will, of itself, be enough to overturn the conviction? I am extremely dubious about that.


Is that a question to me? If it is I didnt say that. I dont believe that they believe that is enough for a moment. I merely listed what Hellman has so far allowed.

As I've been posting on TJMK everything that they ask for can blow up in their faces. This is a minefield for them. Alessi and Aviello and Guede are 3 of the mines.

Now, so is the handle of the knife. The request to open it now seems to have Chris Mellas distinctly rattled. Probably rattled all of the defense.

Pete
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline smacker


User avatar


Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:33 pm

Posts: 399

Location: The King's Head, SW17

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

stint7 wrote:
Wonder what Counsellor Dalla Vedova said that got such a reaction as Amanda removed coat and sat down today ??

Caption anyone ??


Do you know what a whoopee cushion is ?
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Underhill


Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:56 pm

Posts: 80

Location: Suffolk, UK

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

stint7 wrote:
Wonder what Counsellor Dalla Vedova said that got such a reaction as Amanda removed coat and sat down today ??

Caption anyone ??


"They want to open up the knife handle!"
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline bobc


Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:23 pm

Posts: 69

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

stint7 wrote:
Wonder what Counsellor Dalla Vedova said that got such a reaction as Amanda removed coat and sat down today ??

Caption anyone ??

"This is a murder trial"
Top Profile 

Offline The 411


User avatar


Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:49 pm

Posts: 1386

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:45 pm   Post subject: D,N,A Testing?   

smacker wrote:
stint7 wrote:
Wonder what Counsellor Dalla Vedova said that got such a reaction as Amanda removed coat and sat down today ??

Caption anyone ??


"Sorry, Amanda!! But when I told you that the focus of today's court hearing was going to be "DNA testing"... I did NOT mean YOU'd be the one testing some D, N, A--(Drugs, Narcotics & Alcohol!)"

c-)) drin-)
Top Profile 

Offline piktor


User avatar


Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:30 pm

Posts: 1081

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

caption contest

Attachment:
the new Rome experts think you did it and I agree.jpg


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 868

Location: New York

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

patches wrote:
Thank you Fiona for your analysis regarding the appeal.

What you are saying then in effect is , even if the bra clasp and knife got thrown out, then everything else found in the house is not contested. that is if
I understood properly. Do you know if that includes the shoe print on the pillow belonging to AK ?
Was the body moved after the murder? is that also proven ?


No, think of it this way. The defenses began with a big shopping list but pushed it without much enthusiam. See previous remarks re land mines.

Hellman and co are very on top of the papers from the two trials and will soon have the report from Cassation on Guedes final appeal.

They are making up their own minds as to what on the shopping list serves THEIR further needs. So far the rest of the DNA doesnt.

There is nothing "not contested" as such though the shopping list is curiously silent on vast areas. The assorted alibis for example.

Peter Quennell

Added: If you are familiar with the zany klutzy amateur "work" of Bruce Fisher and Steve Moore and other assorted nuts, perverts and conspracists:

There is something INCREDIBLY ironic in all of this.

They thought one wrong defense fact on their lines would bring the whole prosecution case and Micheli and Massei and Cassation on Guede crashing down.

The reality looks like the exact opposite. Any one of the various landmines could bring the defense/Fisher/Moore/etc house of cards crashing down.

You really have to love it.

Pete
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline norbertc


User avatar


Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:16 am

Posts: 307

Location: France

Highscores: 2

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 4:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

caption contest



"The good news is that we're going to get you out of jail;
the bad news is that it might take 23 more years to happen."
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Underhill


Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:56 pm

Posts: 80

Location: Suffolk, UK

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 4:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

stint7 wrote:
Wonder what Counsellor Dalla Vedova said that got such a reaction as Amanda removed coat and sat down today ??

Caption anyone ??


"We're calling a new expert witness. He's called Steve Moore."
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline The Bard


User avatar


Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:46 pm

Posts: 2486

Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 4:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

bobc wrote:
stint7 wrote:
Wonder what Counsellor Dalla Vedova said that got such a reaction as Amanda removed coat and sat down today ??

Caption anyone ??

"This is a murder trial"


:D

_________________
Top Profile 

Offline guermantes

Links & Gallery Moderator


User avatar


Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:49 am

Posts: 4882

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 4:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Chris Mellas doing his best to put an upbeat spin on things:

"On CBS' "The Early Show on Saturday Morning," Amanda Knox's step-father Chris Mellas said, "Things are progressing nicely. You know, one of the things that we really needed to have happen is for this evidence to be checked by a third party, and the fact that it's finally now under way, it's very good.

"Even more so, the fact that they're interested, really, in going a little bit above and beyond what the court even requested," he said.

When asked which evidence he thought was most significant to Knox's appeal, Mellas said, "I would say it's more the lack of evidence. There isn't any evidence, as far as we're concerned, that shows that Amanda had anything to do with it or Raffaele, but there's the two most divisive pieces - the bra clasp and the knife. And that's what's going to be examined right now."

Having visited with Amanda in prison yesterday, Mellas said she is doing "pretty good."

"She's a little bit apprehensive," he said. "You know, things are starting to roll again, and there's kind of a conflict between getting her hopes up, and at the same time, not wanting to be disappointed at the end, if that, you know, because of the potential.

"We always wonder if this is good, or whether this is just kind of a show," he said. "It's hard to tell. . . . [But] we're certainly on the right path. You know, the fact that things are being looked at, that's what we've asked for the entire time."

CBS Early Show


Last edited by guermantes on Sat Jan 22, 2011 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top Profile 

Offline norbertc


User avatar


Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:16 am

Posts: 307

Location: France

Highscores: 2

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 4:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

ttrroonniicc wrote:
They are not acting like wrongly accused people.


Absolutely not. I think this is a central point. It's all theater for Anita and Biff now.

Anyone wrongly accused would exhibit a serious, intense desperation at this time. Years in jail and innocent? I'd be half crazy by now. Hell, if it were me in there, I'd be on the stand myself with the Massei Report in my hand ... credibly and honestly explaining the truth ... sentence by sentence ... minute by minute ... inviting cross examination.

The last thing the these two killers want to do is get the stand and be forced to lie again. They know they're not credible - I'll give them that.

.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline thoughtful


User avatar


Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:48 pm

Posts: 1225

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 4:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

The Machine wrote:
Quote:
Sollecito's DNA on Meredith's bra clasp wasn't LCN DNA.


We're not sure about this. I know that "an abundant amount" was often mentioned, but Sollecito's appeal states that the amount of DNA on the clasp was abundant, but most of it belonged to Meredith, and the amount of Sollecito's was LCN. They further claim that this information was only revealed to the defense in July 2009 when they received the extra papers from the prosecution, and that for such a small quantity, a second amplification would have been needed.

Quote:
Sulla base della documentazione scientifica in possesso dell’accusa sin dalle indagini preliminari, ma depositata nel fascicolo processuale solo in data 30 luglio 2009, anche se non è consentito stabilire con certezza il dato quantitativo del materiale rinvenuto sul gancetto del reggiseno, è possibile dimostrare che si tratti di low copy number.
Top Profile 

Offline Patzu


User avatar


Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 5:10 pm

Posts: 158

Highscores: 1

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 4:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

caption contest

Image

Very sorry Amanda but I have the worst possible news...

Raffaele has demanded equal billing and that the Lifetime film be renamed The Raffaele Sollicito & Amanda Knox Story !!!!!!!


Last edited by Patzu on Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline jfk1191


Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:46 am

Posts: 286

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 4:47 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

thoughtful wrote:
The Machine wrote:
Quote:
Sollecito's DNA on Meredith's bra clasp wasn't LCN DNA.


We're not sure about this. I know that "an abundant amount" was often mentioned, but Sollecito's appeal states that the amount of DNA on the clasp was abundant, but most of it belonged to Meredith, and the amount of Sollecito's was LCN. They further claim that this information was only revealed to the defense in July 2009 when they received the extra papers from the prosecution, and that for such a small quantity, a second amplification would have been needed.

Quote:
Sulla base della documentazione scientifica in possesso dell’accusa sin dalle indagini preliminari, ma depositata nel fascicolo processuale solo in data 30 luglio 2009, anche se non è consentito stabilire con certezza il dato quantitativo del materiale rinvenuto sul gancetto del reggiseno, è possibile dimostrare che si tratti di low copy number.


TJMK had the knife DNA charts, and Meredith Dna overlayed......but I havent found Raffaeles DNA chart, I'd really like to see that too.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline bobc


Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:23 pm

Posts: 69

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 4:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

One thing that puzzles me about the pro-innocent people. I can understand that there is a difference of opinion, but why do they so frequently get hostile and nasty when challenged? It often seems like they are trying to convince themselves, rather than other people. It's like they are saying "you had better be on our side, or else!" Either way, it is counter-productive.

The fact is, Knox and Sollecito are behind bars. The defense need more help to get them out than the prosecution do to keep them in.
Top Profile 

Offline pataz1


Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:02 am

Posts: 303

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 4:58 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Patzu wrote:
Raffaele has demanded the Lifetime film be renamed The Raffaele Sollicito & Amanda Knox Story !!!!!!!


I've got a copy of the latest commercial for it.. i'll have images up later this afternoon. Billed as "Amanda Knox; Murder on trial in italy". Huh. I thought people were on trial. Is someone contending that the murder itself didn't actually happen, and so has to go on trial?!?! :p
Pat
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline zorba


User avatar


Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:11 am

Posts: 4233

Location: London

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 4:58 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Patzu

Could you make the image smaller, the original isn't as wide as the one reproduced in your copy/quote

My screen has gone into laborious scroll mode, ie, scroll left to right, right to left, left to right to read!

Thanks

_________________
Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
Ignorance of the law is no excuse
Top Profile 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Clander wrote:
Fast Pete wrote:
Fiona wrote:
I did not know that Catnip and I use this computer a lot. But I cannot bear dark backgrounds: in fact I joined PMF in the first place simply so I could change the skin to something I could read :) Maybe I am unusual but the default is impossible for me if I want to read extensively, as I did when I first came here


Yeah Fiona reminds me. One had to be a member here to change the scheme. Does that still apply?

Pete


Yes, the default style is the dark background one. If you want to be able to use the white background, you need to register and then change the style in your User Control panel.
(please give me 10 mins to answer your previous question. I need to make a couple of calls)



Actually, not quite correct. One doesn't 'have' to register or log in in order to change the default style. The default can be changed by both members and guests on the Portal page. There's a style changer drop-down box there in the left vertical panel.

Talking of which, once the board has been upgraded it will also be possible to add a mod which will install a drop-down style changer box in the top area of every page, making it much easier and quicker for people to change the style when they wish.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline zorba


User avatar


Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:11 am

Posts: 4233

Location: London

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Well, putting Patzu on ignore hasn't helped so someone else is planting

own up quick

Patzu reinstated, I've already got a halfway there RSI arm

_________________
Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
Ignorance of the law is no excuse
Top Profile 

Offline zorba


User avatar


Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:11 am

Posts: 4233

Location: London

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

It's an inch-worth of scrollies

_________________
Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
Ignorance of the law is no excuse
Top Profile 

Offline fine


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:00 am

Posts: 555

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Fast Pete wrote:
The Machine wrote:
This is extremely interesting. Thoughtful has pointed out that the disco buses are very different to the public buses. However, I wonder if the tourists buses are similar to the disco buses.


The city buses cant get through that narrow city gate on the piazza and so on up to the discos which are half way up the hill. They are huge and made me laugh how they roar around. They do have ways to get to the top of the massif but not this way.

Hence the disco buses. I wouldnt be surprised if the tourist buses and disco buses are actually the same buses just used at different times.

Pete

Added: These are the streets on or off which the relevant discos are:

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php ... ths_house/
http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php ... ths_house/


______________________

So, let me get this straight Pete. Are you saying that the following statement is true.....

Public buses never stop at Grimana Square.

///
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Greggy


User avatar


Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:10 pm

Posts: 208

Location: Southern USA

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:14 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Fiona wrote:
Fast Pete wrote:
Fiona wrote:
Am I right in thinking that the two main planks of the appeal are discrediting the dna evidence: and discrediting Curatolo? Or is that just the first things addressed?



2. It is perfectly possible that the dna evidence on the knife will be excluded because the procedure used has not been replicated or validated. In that case the knife dna is thrown out, but all other dna is intact. So there is still the mixed traces in the footprints and there is still the bra clasp. Dont see that this helps very much.

I understand that it is also claimed that RS' dna on the bra clasp is LCN and so should not be admitted. But I believe it is admissible in Italy, so that does not seem to be a substantive point. But let us suppose that argument is accepted after the new review. That has the same effect as 1. except that it does not result in exclusion of RG's dna. The mixed profiles in the footprints also remain. This might help RS: don't see that it helps AK though.



Hi Fiona,

Your detailed analysis of the DNA evidence was superb. You did an excellent job of assessing the strength of the evidence. I agree with your global contention that as important as this DNA evidence is, even without these two items, a re-conviction is assured because of so much other corroborating evidence of their guilt. Three years later, do either AK or RS have a story they will stand by of what they did the night of the murder? I suggest that RS's biggest problem in being found not guilty is that he is sitting next to Ak47, who is so guilty it hurts. Even if the bra clasp evidence gets thrown out (which it won't in my opinion) there is enough guilt-by-association with AK to re-convict him. It is for good reason that the Court won't let RS sever his trial from AK. In some regards, he should have chosen a fast track trial to get away from her. He may have quickly been found not guilty, and perhaps even the bra clasp evidence never collected or analyzed.

I don't think that the bra clasp evidence results were obtained using a Low Copy Number (LCN) protocol. I think they used the Applied BioSystems quantitative PCR assay kit the way it is intended to be used. I propose this because they reported an actual amount of DNA (4ng, I think I recall). Besides being a rather large amount of DNA obtained by PCR analysis, which wouldn't require a LCN protocol, it is a parametric actual number. Often LCN protocol results are not presented as amount numbers and are viewed as quantal non-parametric results - all-or-none positive or negative results and at best semi-quantitative. In the near future, Invitrogen (Applied BioSystems) and Promega will be introducing quantitative LCN assay kits, but they are still in development. I don't usually criticize my scientific colleagues because we outside commentators never have all the facts, but I am quite amazed that Dr. Stef didn't repeat the bra clasp PCR result analysis. In her court testimony, she was rather brazen and correctly asserted that there was so much DNA found that it would be an easily reproducible result. So....why not do the experiment and confirm it. I don't know if Dr. Stef's lab group did the original bra clasp analysis in duplicate or triplicate so I have to temper any criticism because of my ignorance of exactly what her lab group did. Though not an independent experiment (i.e., the strongest science), duplicate and triplicate PCR results from a single analysis could substitute and be confirmatory (i.e., pragmatic science). I fully expect the new 2 independent experts to do the confirmatory experiment using the Applied Biosystems assay kit. And that will be it for Knife-boy.

I still, however, haven't forgiven you for breaking up the Beatles just because you could.
Top Profile 

Offline zorba


User avatar


Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:11 am

Posts: 4233

Location: London

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:15 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

no scrollies, zoom level 90%, readable with magnifying glass

_________________
Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
Ignorance of the law is no excuse
Top Profile 

Offline DLW


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:41 pm

Posts: 623

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

‘Amanda Knox faces delay in Meredith Kercher murder appeal as experts review evidence’

Mail Online
Top Profile 

Offline Fly by Night


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:09 pm

Posts: 1014

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jools wrote:
:lol: :lol: :lol: Chris Mellas is on television now -Sky News- looking really ridiculous with his grey cap!

Mellas: Our lawyers are confident that they will be able to discredit key evidence.


:lol: indeed! And how absurd that in a trial session established to specifically address the murder weapon, key witnesses, and key DNA evidence that Nick Pisa would include the following bit of information:

Retired British university professor David Anderson, who lives near Perugia and who has taken an interest in the case, said: "The conviction of Amanda and Raffaele is scandalous as neither has the psychological profile of a killer.

"The investigation was flawed from the beginning with many mistakes being made and there is no DNA, no real motive, no weapon and no credible witnesses at all."


Could Anderson (and by including this at this juncture, Pisa himself) possibly have made any more an irrelevant disconnected babbling fool of himself?
Top Profile 

Offline zorba


User avatar


Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:11 am

Posts: 4233

Location: London

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

low copy DNA but when enlarged definitely corresponding to that of suspect X, and uniquely so,

partial unique = parts missing, yet used to convict in British courts, see case of Rachel murdered with almost 50 stab wounds in '92 on Wimbledon Common, UK

anf this even though 99% of DNA is shared universally so, and with apes, yeah that line about 'it could be anyone's is complete and utter bullshit' and more than a non-starter, because partial DNA convicts and there are reasons for this.

_________________
Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
Ignorance of the law is no excuse


Last edited by zorba on Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top Profile 

Offline zorba


User avatar


Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:11 am

Posts: 4233

Location: London

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Fly by Night wrote:
Jools wrote:
:lol: :lol: :lol: Chris Mellas is on television now -Sky News- looking really ridiculous with his grey cap!

Mellas: Our lawyers are confident that they will be able to discredit key evidence.


:lol: indeed! And how absurd that in a trial session established to specifically address the murder weapon, key witnesses, and key DNA evidence that Nick Pisa would include the following bit of information:

Retired British university professor David Anderson, who lives near Perugia and who has taken an interest in the case, said: "The conviction of Amanda and Raffaele is scandalous as neither has the psychological profile of a killer.

"The investigation was flawed from the beginning with many mistakes being made and there is no DNA, no real motive, no weapon and no credible witnesses at all."


Could Anderson (and by including this at this juncture, Pisa himself) possibly have made any more an irrelevant disconnected babbling fool of himself?



I don't like Pisa because I recognised, a long time ago, that he puts his name to any newspaper line, any that pays.

He seemed to write some good stuff but I now do think he is yet another media whore.

I say it because instead of being unbiased/neutral, he just has no principles at all.

I mean if you are worth your salt there's no way you work for the f---daily star or the daily Seig Heil.

_________________
Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
Ignorance of the law is no excuse


Last edited by zorba on Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top Profile 

Offline guermantes

Links & Gallery Moderator


User avatar


Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:49 am

Posts: 4882

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jools wrote:
:lol: :lol: :lol: Chris Mellas is on television now -Sky News- looking really ridiculous with his grey cap!

Mellas: Our lawyers are confident that they will be able to discredit key evidence.


Here he is! ... again.

THE SUN (with video)

Chris Mellas looks everywhere but into the camera.

Attachment:
Chris Mellas on Sky News-1.JPG


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Last edited by guermantes on Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:44 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Top Profile 

Offline Clander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:26 am

Posts: 855

Location: Rome

Highscores: 77

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
Clander wrote:
Fast Pete wrote:
Fiona wrote:
I did not know that Catnip and I use this computer a lot. But I cannot bear dark backgrounds: in fact I joined PMF in the first place simply so I could change the skin to something I could read :) Maybe I am unusual but the default is impossible for me if I want to read extensively, as I did when I first came here


Yeah Fiona reminds me. One had to be a member here to change the scheme. Does that still apply?

Pete


Yes, the default style is the dark background one. If you want to be able to use the white background, you need to register and then change the style in your User Control panel.
(please give me 10 mins to answer your previous question. I need to make a couple of calls)



Actually, not quite correct. One doesn't 'have' to register or log in in order to change the default style. The default can be changed by both members and guests on the Portal page. There's a style changer drop-down box there in the left vertical panel.

Talking of which, once the board has been upgraded it will also be possible to add a mod which will install a drop-down style changer box in the top area of every page, making it much easier and quicker for people to change the style when they wish.


Yes, I was thinking about guests that will eventually register. My bad.
Lurkers that prefer the white background style do not even have to go to the Portal.

Just bookmark this link for the Prosilver style:
index.php?style=1

Or this one for the Subsilver style:
index.php?style=6
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Fly by Night


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:09 pm

Posts: 1014

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

DLW wrote:
‘Amanda Knox faces delay in Meredith Kercher murder appeal as experts review evidence’

Mail Online


File this under: "Be careful what you pray for - your wishes might just come true"
Top Profile 

Offline Pelerine


User avatar


Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:19 pm

Posts: 414

Highscores: 2

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Apologies, if already posted:

http://video.uk.msn.com/watch/video/rev ... rom=truveo


Watching the video - the lovebirds don't look by farest as innoncent people unjustly jailed already for years!
In this case they would look concentrated,determined and absolutely decisive to fight tooth and nails for their freedom. Going over relevant papers with the lawyer.

Instead they are entering the court-room with broad smile : Hey folks, nice to meet you again!
But I think at one time I could see a worried face when the knife was mentioned.

_________________
r-(( Rest in Peace Meredith Kercher r-((


Last edited by Pelerine on Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2308

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

thoughtful wrote:
The Machine wrote:
Quote:
Sollecito's DNA on Meredith's bra clasp wasn't LCN DNA.


We're not sure about this. I know that "an abundant amount" was often mentioned, but Sollecito's appeal states that the amount of DNA on the clasp was abundant, but most of it belonged to Meredith, and the amount of Sollecito's was LCN. They further claim that this information was only revealed to the defense in July 2009 when they received the extra papers from the prosecution, and that for such a small quantity, a second amplification would have been needed.

Quote:
Sulla base della documentazione scientifica in possesso dell’accusa sin dalle indagini preliminari, ma depositata nel fascicolo processuale solo in data 30 luglio 2009, anche se non è consentito stabilire con certezza il dato quantitativo del materiale rinvenuto sul gancetto del reggiseno, è possibile dimostrare che si tratti di low copy number.


Sollecito's expert claimed that Sollecito's DNA on Meredith's bra clasp was LCN DNA at the trial, but Judge Massei rejected this claim:

"In relation to this and also - at least in part - in relation to what was admitted by Professor Tagliabrachi on the ratio of 8 to 1 as originally indicated, the calculation presented by Sollecito's defence consultant and the results of these calculations must be spoken of as being "low copy number", cannot be accepted.

Moreover, the peak heights appear suitable to provide a result that is completely reliable according to the interpretation criteria demonstrated in that regard, and mentioned above. It is sufficient to recall in this regard that the lowest peak was 65 RFU. The heights of these peaks are therefore indicative of a sufficient quantity of DNA, as was also noted by Dr. Torricelli, such that there was no need to repeat the analysis." (The Massei report, pages 295-6).
Top Profile 

Offline windfall


Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:22 pm

Posts: 608

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Someone needs to lift that photo of Knox with guard from the Daily Mail page and start another caption competition... Note there are two comments on the article so far, both protesting their innocence, and both with 30+ negative ratings from other readers. I am sure that has nothing to do with PMF members.... ;-)
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Fiona


User avatar


Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:54 am

Posts: 1080

Highscores: 7

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Greggy wrote:
Hi Fiona,
I don't think that the bra clasp evidence results were obtained using a Low Copy Number (LCN) protocol. I think they used the Applied BioSystems quantitative PCR assay kit the way it is intended to be used. I propose this because they reported an actual amount of DNA (4ng, I think I recall). Besides being a rather large amount of DNA obtained by PCR analysis, which wouldn't require a LCN protocol, it is a parametric actual number. Often LCN protocol results are not presented as amount numbers and are viewed as quantal non-parametric results - all-or-none positive or negative results and at best semi-quantitative. In the near future, Invitrogen (Applied BioSystems) and Promega will be introducing quantitative LCN assay kits, but they are still in development. I don't usually criticize my scientific colleagues because we outside commentators never have all the facts, but I am quite amazed that Dr. Stef didn't repeat the bra clasp PCR result analysis. In her court testimony, she was rather brazen and correctly asserted that there was so much DNA found that it would be an easily reproducible result. So....why not do the experiment and confirm it. I don't know if Dr. Stef's lab group did the original bra clasp analysis in duplicate or triplicate so I have to temper any criticism because of my ignorance of exactly what her lab group did. Though not an independent experiment (i.e., the strongest science), duplicate and triplicate PCR results from a single analysis could substitute and be confirmatory (i.e., pragmatic science). I fully expect the new 2 independent experts to do the confirmatory experiment using the Applied Biosystems assay kit. And that will be it for Knife-boy.


I agree that LCN protocol was not used. The claim I have seen is that it should have been used. The argument goes like this: there was a large amount of dna recovered from the clasp. Stefanoni tested it and she put a number on the relative quantity which belonged to MK and to RS (I believe it was 6:1). Those who are contesting this finding say that 1/6 of the quantity of dna found amounts to an LCN amount of RS's dna. There are then two strands:1. LCN testing has to be done using a different protocol and so this finding cannot be relied upon:2. LCN testing is inherently unacceptable (unless, in some arguments, it is done using a specially constitued lab as is done in the uk.

I do not know enough about dna testing. At present I think this is a red herring because my understanding is that you get a quantity of dna and you test it and profiles emerge. Mixed samples produce two or more profiles. You then match those profiles. If that is the case, if there are two profiles, then there are two profiles. They have been detected using standard procedure and they do not turn into LCN profiles because of the relative quantity. I believe it is possible that in a mixed sample it may not be possible to detect both profiles: or one of them may be partial. But that was not the case here: they were both complete and attributable. My understanding is that the test produces peaks from the material and those peaks are examined so as to determine how many dna profiles are present and whether they match anyone on the database.

I may have this completely wrong. I am not in this field and I am relying on stuff I read some long time ago as well. But what those who argue against this identification seem to imply is that it is never possible to identify the profiles in a mixed sample if one of those profiles arises from a significantly smaller quantity than the other: which would normally be the case, surely? Yet peaks are peaks: there is a subjective element in interpretation, but it is not a random process. There are problems with drop out and drop in and peak height and all sorts of things: but the fact remains that you either have identifiable peaks distinguishable from noise and matching at all points: or you don't. The absolute height is not crucial: it matters for the purpose of ensuring noise is not mistaken for a peak, I think. And as I understand it there was sufficient differentiation to establish this was RS's dna: as I said, I do not think the defence seriously disputed that.

Those who say it was LCN appear to believe that one can separate a mixed sample and test the profiles separately: but since you do not know they are mixed until you test, that cannot be correct. I will be very interested to have this explained to me showing where I have gone wrong. But at the moment I think this is one of the less persuasive planks of the case for innocence.



Quote:
I still, however, haven't forgiven you for breaking up the Beatles just because you could.


I could say a whole lot on that: but I won't ;)


Last edited by Fiona on Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Emerald


User avatar


Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:53 am

Posts: 1706

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:58 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

The Bard wrote:
:D


Hi Bard. Hope Mr. Bard is doing better and your spirits are up. hugz-)

Are bunnies intuitive about their owners well being like dogs or cats are?
Top Profile 

Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 868

Location: New York

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

fine wrote:
Fast Pete wrote:
The Machine wrote:
This is extremely interesting. Thoughtful has pointed out that the disco buses are very different to the public buses. However, I wonder if the tourists buses are similar to the disco buses.


The city buses cant get through that narrow city gate on the piazza and so on up to the discos which are half way up the hill. They are huge and made me laugh how they roar around. They do have ways to get to the top of the massif but not this way.

Hence the disco buses. I wouldnt be surprised if the tourist buses and disco buses are actually the same buses just used at different times.

Pete

Added: These are the streets on or off which the relevant discos are:

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php ... ths_house/
http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php ... ths_house/


______________________

So, let me get this straight Pete. Are you saying that the following statement is true.....

Public buses never stop at Grimana Square.

///


Hi fine. No, the square is a major public bus stop, one of the busiest in the city. Buses fly in from four directions, from all 4 corners of the square.

Just not from those two streets down, the one through the city gate and the other down the very steep cobbles. which both arrive toward the middle of the south side of the square.

Best to see a map. Here it is quickly in text. Streets buses do use are Cesare Battisti and Pinturicchio (to right and left as you face south or uphill toward the city gate) which come more indirectly down from the massif, and then San Antonio and Fabretti (on off down further in opposite directions; Fabretti forks behind the language school, one way drops down to the station area and the other to the university main campus).

I'll try to do a photo montage and post it. This would make a good project for a 360 degrees panning video. SomeAlibi?!

Pete


Last edited by Fast Pete on Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline stint7


User avatar


Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:07 pm

Posts: 1582

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

The stepfather of Amanda Knox, jailed for the murder of British student Meredith Kercher, has said he would not return home until the American student was released from jail.

Mr Mellas, who moved to Italy in September to support his stepdaughter and was in court along with her school friend Madison Paxton, added: "I have been over here for much too long already but I will stay here for as long as it takes. The day that she goes home is the day that I move home."

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/ ... z1BmxmNipl
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


WOW

That is a pretty powerful, errr ahhh.. 'soundbite', isn't it, Chris ??
Of course, Edda is perfectly OK with that powerful 'promise', I presume ??


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Last edited by stint7 on Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Top Profile 

Offline Emerald


User avatar


Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:53 am

Posts: 1706

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Very strange reaction here as I scrolled past the photo of Raffaele blowing a kiss. I gasped and pulled away from the computer.

Just my psych(ic)o opinion. Raffaele is being advised to keep Amanda believing in his devotion. Depending on the bent of the upcoming trial, he is about to make a deal.
Top Profile 

Offline Greggy


User avatar


Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:10 pm

Posts: 208

Location: Southern USA

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

The Machine wrote:
thoughtful wrote:
The Machine wrote:
Quote:
Sollecito's DNA on Meredith's bra clasp wasn't LCN DNA.


We're not sure about this. I know that "an abundant amount" was often mentioned, but Sollecito's appeal states that the amount of DNA on the clasp was abundant, but most of it belonged to Meredith, and the amount of Sollecito's was LCN. They further claim that this information was only revealed to the defense in July 2009 when they received the extra papers from the prosecution, and that for such a small quantity, a second amplification would have been needed.

Quote:
Sulla base della documentazione scientifica in possesso dell’accusa sin dalle indagini preliminari, ma depositata nel fascicolo processuale solo in data 30 luglio 2009, anche se non è consentito stabilire con certezza il dato quantitativo del materiale rinvenuto sul gancetto del reggiseno, è possibile dimostrare che si tratti di low copy number.


Sollecito's expert claimed that Sollecito's DNA on Meredith's bra clasp was LCN DNA at the trial, but Judge Massei rejected this claim:

"In relation to this and also - at least in part - in relation to what was admitted by Professor Tagliabrachi on the ratio of 8 to 1 as originally indicated, the calculation presented by Sollecito's defence consultant and the results of these calculations must be spoken of as being "low copy number", cannot be accepted.

Moreover, the peak heights appear suitable to provide a result that is completely reliable according to the interpretation criteria demonstrated in that regard, and mentioned above. It is sufficient to recall in this regard that the lowest peak was 65 RFU. The heights of these peaks are therefore indicative of a sufficient quantity of DNA, as was also noted by Dr. Torricelli, such that there was no need to repeat the analysis." (The Massei report, pages 295-6).


It sounds to me like RS's DNA expert was trying to confuse the Judge and Court a bit since they are non-scientists by deliberately equating small amounts of DNA with the LCN protocol to confuse them and dispute the results. Some of our top hired-gun DNA experts use the same confusing tactics here in the USA in an attempt to get Juries to disregard all DNA evidence. The bra clasp DNA evidence seems very strong and the results are not equivocal. An 8:1 ratio, or more precisely 8X MK DNA to every 1X RS DNA is damming. If the RS result was pure contamination, the ratio would probably be roughly 1000:1 or less. Or in very rough actual relative amounts, if the result was due to contamination, for every nanogram (10e-9) of MK DNA, there would roughly be 1 picogram (10e-12) of RS DNA present. I believe they estimated 3-4ng of RS DNA on the bra clasp. In my opinion, that result is way too high an amount for it to be contamination by transference. In terms of Relative Fluorescent Units (RFU), once you get over 50, it is usually accepted as a positive peak result unless the noise of the assay is unacceptable due to a confounding substance. I think the independent experts should repeat the bra clasp assay simply just for completeness, but I propose that the results will be very nearly the same because there is so much of RS's DNA present. In short, whether she was dead or alive at the time, the oleaginous RS unsnapped her bra.
Top Profile 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Stint7 wrote:
The stepfather of Amanda Knox, jailed for the murder of British student Meredith Kercher, has said he would not return home until the American student was released from jail.

Mr Mellas, who moved to Italy in September to support his stepdaughter and was in court along with her school friend Madison Paxton, added: "I have been over here for much too long already but I will stay here for as long as it takes. The day that she goes home is the day that I move home."

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/ ... z1BmxmNipl
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


WOW

That is a pretty powerful, errr ahhh.. 'soundbite', isn't it, Chris ??
Of course, Edda is perfectly OK with that powerful 'promise', I presume ??



There's more to this ;)

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Emerald


User avatar


Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:53 am

Posts: 1706

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
There's more to this ;)


Becoming increasingly more obvious, too.
Top Profile 

Offline capealadin


User avatar


Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:58 am

Posts: 4089

Highscores: 11

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Caption: " Chris is staying till the end".

_________________
"You have been PERMANENTLY Banned!" - by .ORG eee-)
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Greggy


User avatar


Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:10 pm

Posts: 208

Location: Southern USA

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Fiona wrote:

I agree that LCN protocol was not used. The claim I have seen is that it should have been used. The argument goes like this: there was a large amount of dna recovered from the clasp. Stefanoni tested it and she put a number on the relative quantity which belonged to MK and to RS (I believe it was 6:1). Those who are contesting this finding say that 1/6 of the quantity of dna found amounts to an LCN amount of RS's dna. There are then two strands:1. LCN testing has to be done using a different protocol and so this finding cannot be relied upon:2. LCN testing is inherently unacceptable (unless, in some arguments, it is done using a specially constitued lab as is done in the uk.

I do not know enough about dna testing. At present I think this is a red herring because my understanding is that you get a quantity of dna and you test it and profiles emerge. Mixed samples produce two or more profiles. You then match those profiles. If that is the case, if there are two profiles, then there are two profiles. They have been detected using standard procedure and they do not turn into LCN profiles because of the relative quantity. I believe it is possible that in a mixed sample it may not be possible to detect both profiles: or one of them may be partial. But that was not the case here: they were both complete and attributable. My understanding is that the test produces peaks from the material and those peaks are examined so as to determine how many dna profiles are present and whether they match anyone on the database.

I may have this completely wrong. I am not in this field and I am relying on stuff I read some long time ago as well. But what those who argue against this identification seem to imply is that it is never possible to identify the profiles in a mixed sample if one of those profiles arises from a significantly smaller quantity than the other: which would normally be the case, surely? Yet peaks are peaks: there is a subjective element in interpretation, but it is not a random process. There are problems with drop out and drop in and peak height and all sorts of things: but the fact remains that you either have identifiable peaks distinguishable from noise and matching at all points: or you don't. The absolute height is not crucial: it matters for the purpose of ensuring noise is not mistaken for a peak, I think. And as I understand it there was sufficient differentiation to establish this was RS's dna: as I said, I do not think the defence seriously disputed that.

Those who say it was LCN appear to believe that one can separate a mixed sample and test the profiles separately: but since you do not know they are mixed until you test, that cannot be correct. I will be very interested to have this explained to me showing where I have gone wrong. But at the moment I think this is one of the less persuasive planks of the case for innocence.


Fiona, your understanding of the technology's strengths and limitations is strong. The only thing I would add is that peak height can be important when you have mixed samples because it enables you to distinguish DNA profiles from each other. For example, if one set of marker peaks are all relatively high, you can group them and assume that is from person #1; if another set of marker peaks are all relatively low, you can group them and assume that is from person #2. If you notice a third set of very very low marker peaks, group them and include your lab technican's profile in the determination. That is what contamination really looks like.
Top Profile 

Offline Fiona


User avatar


Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:54 am

Posts: 1080

Highscores: 7

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Greggy wrote:
The Machine wrote:
thoughtful wrote:
The Machine wrote:
Quote:
Sollecito's DNA on Meredith's bra clasp wasn't LCN DNA.


We're not sure about this. I know that "an abundant amount" was often mentioned, but Sollecito's appeal states that the amount of DNA on the clasp was abundant, but most of it belonged to Meredith, and the amount of Sollecito's was LCN. They further claim that this information was only revealed to the defense in July 2009 when they received the extra papers from the prosecution, and that for such a small quantity, a second amplification would have been needed.

Quote:
Sulla base della documentazione scientifica in possesso dell’accusa sin dalle indagini preliminari, ma depositata nel fascicolo processuale solo in data 30 luglio 2009, anche se non è consentito stabilire con certezza il dato quantitativo del materiale rinvenuto sul gancetto del reggiseno, è possibile dimostrare che si tratti di low copy number.


Sollecito's expert claimed that Sollecito's DNA on Meredith's bra clasp was LCN DNA at the trial, but Judge Massei rejected this claim:

"In relation to this and also - at least in part - in relation to what was admitted by Professor Tagliabrachi on the ratio of 8 to 1 as originally indicated, the calculation presented by Sollecito's defence consultant and the results of these calculations must be spoken of as being "low copy number", cannot be accepted.

Moreover, the peak heights appear suitable to provide a result that is completely reliable according to the interpretation criteria demonstrated in that regard, and mentioned above. It is sufficient to recall in this regard that the lowest peak was 65 RFU. The heights of these peaks are therefore indicative of a sufficient quantity of DNA, as was also noted by Dr. Torricelli, such that there was no need to repeat the analysis." (The Massei report, pages 295-6).


It sounds to me like RS's DNA expert was trying to confuse the Judge and Court a bit since they are non-scientists by deliberately equating small amounts of DNA with the LCN protocol to confuse them and dispute the results. Some of our top hired-gun DNA experts use the same confusing tactics here in the USA in an attempt to get Juries to disregard all DNA evidence. The bra clasp DNA evidence seems very strong and the results are not equivocal. An 8:1 ratio, or more precisely 8X MK DNA to every 1X RS DNA is damming. If the RS result was pure contamination, the ratio would probably be roughly 1000:1 or less. Or in very rough actual relative amounts, if the result was due to contamination, for every nanogram (10e-9) of MK DNA, there would roughly be 1 picogram (10e-12) of RS DNA present. I believe they estimated 3-4ng of RS DNA on the bra clasp. In my opinion, that result is way too high an amount for it to be contamination by transference. In terms of Relative Fluorescent Units (RFU), once you get over 50, it is usually accepted as a positive peak result unless the noise of the assay is unacceptable due to a confounding substance. I think the independent experts should repeat the bra clasp assay simply just for completeness, but I propose that the results will be very nearly the same because there is so much of RS's DNA present. In short, whether she was dead or alive at the time, the oleaginous RS unsnapped her bra.


The claim is that there was 4ng in total: 1/6 or 1/8 is said to be RS's. That is the contention which leads to the claim it is LCN. I am not sure if it is true.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Jools


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Here is a short video clip from today's session.

At 0.32 seconds, is that David C. Anderson sitting next to AK ? I think he is. Also check Paxton @ video end all chummy, chummy with RS.
mop-) mop-)

Top Profile 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jools wrote:
At 0.32 seconds, is that David C. Anderson sitting next to AK ? I think he is.


No...that's Vedova.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline stint7


User avatar


Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:07 pm

Posts: 1582

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

"I won't tell if you don't"

ETA:
Daily Mail says these waves/gestures were to their families


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Last edited by stint7 on Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top Profile 

Offline Jools


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Michael wrote:
Jools wrote:
At 0.32 seconds, is that David C. Anderson sitting next to AK ? I think he is.


No...that's Vedova.

Michael, Vedova is to her left. I'm talking about the guy with glasses wearing a beige suit and to her right at 0.32 seconds.


Here is the guy again with Mellas towards the end of the video:


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Top Profile 

Offline DLW


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:41 pm

Posts: 623

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

bobc wrote:

‘From the pictures I have seen the knife appears to be a moulded type, so I think it is less likely for there to be any hidden DNA, but it is sensible to look. I can't really see any scenario where this helps the defense though.’

If they don’t find any DNA, and I see it as extremely unlikely bordering nearly impossible unless there is a visible crack in the seal, then the defense will say it should have been there. It will give the defense another talking point. The experts I presume have not inspected that seal on the knife, but Stefanoni has and decided that the disassembly wasn‘t required and preserving the integrity of the knife was more important. It’s up to the court to expand or limit the additional testing.


Last edited by DLW on Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top Profile 

Offline Jools


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Article by Radell Smith-The Examiner:

Amanda Knox murder appeal: Would she have fared differently in Atlanta?

"Meredith Kercher is like other victims in Atlanta and elsewhere: she deserves justice for the horrendous crimes perpetrated against her. Amanda Knox is attempting to thwart the justice already served by having her legal representatives try to discount the evidence that convicted her of Meredith's murder."

"Should Meredith Kercher lose the justice already given to her once in Italy? Should the smiling American Amanda Knox get away with murder because she is an American? Will Americans rally to defend someone just because they hail from our country, regardless of evident guilt? Let us hope not."

The Examiner
Top Profile 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jools wrote:
Michael, Vedova is to her left. I'm talking about the guy with glasses wearing a beige suit and to her right at 0.32 seconds.


Here is the guy again with Mellas towards the end of the video:



Ahh, okay.



Jools wrote:
Article by Radell Smith-The Examiner:

Amanda Knox murder appeal: Would she have fared differently in Atlanta?

"Meredith Kercher is like other victims in Atlanta and elsewhere: she deserves justice for the horrendous crimes perpetrated against her. Amanda Knox is attempting to thwart the justice already served by having her legal representatives try to discount the evidence that convicted her of Meredith's murder."

"Should Meredith Kercher lose the justice already given to her once in Italy? Should the smiling American Amanda Knox get away with murder because she is an American? Will Americans rally to defend someone just because they hail from our country, regardless of evident guilt? Let us hope not."

The Examiner



She has a comments section on that article. She'll be coming in for heavy FOAKer attack for writing that.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline windfall


Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:22 pm

Posts: 608

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Emerald wrote:
Very strange reaction here as I scrolled past the photo of Raffaele blowing a kiss. I gasped and pulled away from the computer.

Just my psych(ic)o opinion. Raffaele is being advised to keep Amanda believing in his devotion. Depending on the bent of the upcoming trial, he is about to make a deal.


Worth being careful here. According to the Daily Mail, the gestures were to their respective families, not to each other.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline fine


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:00 am

Posts: 555

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

DLW wrote:
bobc wrote:

‘From the pictures I have seen the knife appears to be a moulded type, so I think it is less likely for there to be any hidden DNA, but it is sensible to look. I can't really see any scenario where this helps the defense though.’

If they don’t find any DNA, and I see it as extremely unlikely bordering nearly impossible unless there is a visible crack in the seal, then the defense will say it should have been there. It will give the defense another talking point. The experts I presume have not inspected that seal on the knife, but Stefanoni has and decided that disassembly wasn‘t required. It’s up to the court to expand or limit the additional testing.


_______________________

DLW,

Yes, that's what the defense team is hoping. Best case scenario for the defense: These is a tiny gap/crack found between the knife handle and blade, and found there is food debris plus DNA of both Amanda and Raffaele. Then defense will ask why was no trace of Meredith's DNA found there?

///
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Fly by Night


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:09 pm

Posts: 1014

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

fine wrote:
DLW wrote:
bobc wrote:

‘From the pictures I have seen the knife appears to be a moulded type, so I think it is less likely for there to be any hidden DNA, but it is sensible to look. I can't really see any scenario where this helps the defense though.’

If they don’t find any DNA, and I see it as extremely unlikely bordering nearly impossible unless there is a visible crack in the seal, then the defense will say it should have been there. It will give the defense another talking point. The experts I presume have not inspected that seal on the knife, but Stefanoni has and decided that disassembly wasn‘t required. It’s up to the court to expand or limit the additional testing.


_______________________

DLW,

Yes, that's what the defense team is hoping. Best case scenario for the defense: These is a tiny gap/crack found between the knife handle and blade, and found there is food debris plus DNA of both Amanda and Raffaele. Then defense will ask why was no trace of Meredith's DNA found there?

///


I doubt that knife was used much for cooking in the week that Amanda had access to it.
Top Profile 

Offline Welshy


User avatar


Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:27 pm

Posts: 30

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Quote:
Catnip wrote:
John wrote:


One more thing, if anyone knows, I read earlier that RS’s dad called him around 12:40 on Nov 2, this is the first I’ve heard of this, is this correct?


Page 319 of the English translation of the Massei report (p342 in the Italian):

Quote:
− 12:38: Vodafone sent a message of confirmation of phone [credit] recharge (Piazza Lupattelli sector 7 cell, good for Via della Pergola 7)

− 12:40: incoming call from the father’s mobile phone (lasting 67 seconds; connection through Piazza Lupattelli sector 7 cell, compatible with the Sollecito’s presence near the little house)

− 12:50:34 outgoing call directed at mobile phone xxxxxxxxx belonging to Vanessa Sollecito, sister of the defendant; duration 39 seconds. Connection to Piazza Lupattelli sector 7 cell



I blanked out the number.

Raffaele's dad was expecting them to have gone on a trip to Gubbio that day



Sorry to labour the point, and again apologies if this has already been addressed, but has RS or indeed his father ever accounted for the call at 12:40? The incoming call at 12:40 is registering with the mast that serves the cottage, as did his earlier top up at 12:35, also Amanda at 12:34 is registering with a mast that serves the cottage, she's already made the phone calls to Meredith's English phone and Romanelli at 12:07 and 12:08 respectively so at 12:40 when RS receives the call from his father he will be well aware of the odd situation at the cottage and Knox's apparent concerns - so he must have mentioned it to his father at this point surely?
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Emerald


User avatar


Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:53 am

Posts: 1706

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

stint7 wrote:
Wonder what Counsellor Dalla Vedova said that got such a reaction as Amanda removed coat and sat down today ??

Caption anyone ??


Not a caption, just an opinion. Amanda was acting very animated for the cameras. She's back to her initial antics.

If the court actually thought for a single second the wrong people were incarcerated, they would have accelerated the court dates to limit the State liability.
Top Profile 

Offline TomM


User avatar


Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:28 pm

Posts: 583

Location: California

Highscores: 8

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:13 pm   Post subject: Re: Just kitten around...   

The 411 wrote:
Catnip wrote:
Re US jury cats:

Makes the claim easier to make that the some of the jurors were sleeping during the trial.

Or licking their paws...

And you can tell when they're paying attention to a good attorney/advocate: the little bells on their necks go ding-a-ling! as they watch the hand-waving intently.


Ha ha, Catnip! :D
You're kind of an expert on the subject...so... do you really think feline jurors would take...catNAPS during the trial?????? mike p-(((

Maybe all cat jurors should be forced to take an oath to remain awake during the trial--They'd have to raise their right paws and all that.

I'm ok with any qualified cats serving as jurors... as long as they don't mistake the jury box for a litter box. :shock:

nw)

Meow for now,
La F'lllina (pron. "Felina?")

P.S. BRAVO, Piktor! I've just now seen your work. May this art display symbolize the beginning of a "banner" year for justice-- for Meredith Kercher.

OK. Gary Larson has your cat jury right here:


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline stint7


User avatar


Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:07 pm

Posts: 1582

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:15 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

From Today's Boston Herald:

Chris Mellas, who arrived in Perugia just days ago*, said:
"In the first trial a lot of things were good but she is still in prison," Mellas said.
"Nothing is good — it’s just better than bad."

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/intern ... rticleFull

1) Ahhh; thanks Chris....
another taste of those wonderful words of wisdom you always so graciously bestow on us.
(but never look us in the eye when you say them)
That is the kind of quote I want to laminate in plastic and always carry with me to forever enlighten myself with. :roll:

2*) Also FWIW; another ever so factual piece of U.S media's accurate reporting:.....
" Chris arrived in Perugia *just days ago*"
huh-)
Top Profile 

Offline Earl Grey


User avatar


Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:38 pm

Posts: 236

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

stint7 wrote:
The stepfather of Amanda Knox, jailed for the murder of British student Meredith Kercher, has said he would not return home until the American student was released from jail.

Mr Mellas, who moved to Italy in September to support his stepdaughter and was in court along with her school friend Madison Paxton, added: "I have been over here for much too long already but I will stay here for as long as it takes. The day that she goes home is the day that I move home."



WOW

That is a pretty powerful, errr ahhh.. 'soundbite', isn't it, Chris ??


Now, Stint. That was one hell of a soundbite as far as soundbites go.
It takes a hell of a man to promise what Chris Mellas promised. Ergo, he is a man.

His determination and statement of intent are to be admired. Now that I see him in this new light, I also have newly discovered admiration for his baseball cap, where before I had my doubts. No longer.
Chris is a man -- the man, it could even be argued -- and he sports the hat of a man. A real man´s real hat, dammit.

And -- am I going to be the first to say it? -- if I were a female, no other man would do for me.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline patches


Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:15 pm

Posts: 24

Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

High 5 for Radell Smith
It seems that even american journalism can (with the required distance) free itself from the national clammer of self righteousness.

With her educational expertise in behavioral forensics, I guess that what she must be seeing in those two has to be blowing her mind.

But that the Atlanta examiner is prepared to print it, may in itself give notice that the tide is ever so slowly beginning to turn.
Top Profile 

Offline zorba


User avatar


Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:11 am

Posts: 4233

Location: London

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Well, must be just me then, scroll necessity is even wider now

tried foe-ing a few people to see where the problem is, but, I give up

Edit by Clander:
Fixed.
There were two pictures at 900 pixels and above.
Are you the only one using a 1024x768 resolution?

Also, the next time that you see someone post a wider than 750-pixel image without using the RIMG tag, could you please let him/her know?

_________________
Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
Ignorance of the law is no excuse
Top Profile 

Offline pataz1


Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:02 am

Posts: 303

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

pataz1 wrote:
Patzu wrote:
Raffaele has demanded the Lifetime film be renamed The Raffaele Sollicito & Amanda Knox Story !!!!!!!


I've got a copy of the latest commercial for it.. i'll have images up later this afternoon. Billed as "Amanda Knox; Murder on trial in italy". Huh. I thought people were on trial. Is someone contending that the murder itself didn't actually happen, and so has to go on trial?!?! :p
Pat


"Immediately following the movie at 11PM ET/PT, Lifetime will premiere the hour-long documentary, Beyond the Headlines: Amanda Knox, featuring Amanda’s mother, father, friends, investigators, prosecutors and legal scholars who take viewers inside the Italian justice system and reveal what it’s like to be a foreigner locked up and convicted in another country. Set in the town of Perugia, Italy, and Amanda’s hometown of Seattle, the documentary will unravel the legal evidence and allegations to look at what really happened to Meredith Kercher on November 2, 2007 – and what Amanda Knox’s role might have been
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline DLW


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:41 pm

Posts: 623

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

fine wrote:
DLW wrote:
bobc wrote:

‘From the pictures I have seen the knife appears to be a moulded type, so I think it is less likely for there to be any hidden DNA, but it is sensible to look. I can't really see any scenario where this helps the defense though.’

If they don’t find any DNA, and I see it as extremely unlikely bordering nearly impossible unless there is a visible crack in the seal, then the defense will say it should have been there. It will give the defense another talking point. The experts I presume have not inspected that seal on the knife, but Stefanoni has and decided that disassembly wasn‘t required. It’s up to the court to expand or limit the additional testing.

_______________________
DLW,

Yes, that's what the defense team is hoping. Best case scenario for the defense: These is a tiny gap/crack found between the knife handle and blade, and found there is food debris plus DNA of both Amanda and Raffaele. Then defense will ask why was no trace of Meredith's DNA found there?///

Hi fine. Yes I doubt there will be food particles there. But in order to get that handle off the steel blade, they will most probably need a hammer and a chisel. The plastic isn’t going to come right off. Also let’s not forget that Amanda’s DNA is on the handle. Not only that, but it’s location. In Stefanoni’s judgment, there was nothing to be gained by hacking away at the handle. The DNA experts are not as yet nearly as familiar with the mechanics of that knife. Obviously the judges will decide.
Top Profile 

Offline The Bard


User avatar


Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:46 pm

Posts: 2486

Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Breaking News - 32 year old Vincent Tabak has been charged with the murder of Joanna Yeates.

_________________
Top Profile 

Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2308

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

DLW wrote:
fine wrote:
DLW wrote:
bobc wrote:

‘From the pictures I have seen the knife appears to be a moulded type, so I think it is less likely for there to be any hidden DNA, but it is sensible to look. I can't really see any scenario where this helps the defense though.’

If they don’t find any DNA, and I see it as extremely unlikely bordering nearly impossible unless there is a visible crack in the seal, then the defense will say it should have been there. It will give the defense another talking point. The experts I presume have not inspected that seal on the knife, but Stefanoni has and decided that disassembly wasn‘t required. It’s up to the court to expand or limit the additional testing.

_______________________
DLW,

Yes, that's what the defense team is hoping. Best case scenario for the defense: These is a tiny gap/crack found between the knife handle and blade, and found there is food debris plus DNA of both Amanda and Raffaele. Then defense will ask why was no trace of Meredith's DNA found there?///

Hi fine. Yes I doubt there will be food particles there. But in order to get that handle off the steel blade, they will most probably need a hammer and a chisel. The plastic isn’t going to come right off. Also let’s not forget that Amanda’s DNA is on the handle. Not only that, but it’s location. In Stefanoni’s judgment, there was nothing to be gained by hacking away at the handle. The DNA experts are not as yet nearly as familiar with the mechanics of that knife. Obviously the judges will decide.


Luciano Garofano thinks that Meredith's blood or DNA might be inside the handle. He is a distinguished DNA expert and a former Caribineri General. I don't think he would have suggested separating the plastic handle from the knife, if he didn't think there was a real possibility of finding Meredith's blood or DNA. The two independent experts clearly think that this is the case too.
Top Profile 

Offline DLW


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:41 pm

Posts: 623

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

The Machine wrote:

‘Luciano Garofano thinks that Meredith's blood or DNA might be inside the handle. He is a distinguished DNA expert and a former Caribineri General. I don't think he would have suggested separating the plastic handle from the knife, if he didn't think there was a real possibility of finding Meredith's blood or DNA. The two independent experts clearly think that this is the case too.’

Looking at the whole picture as described, yes they would know best. sur-)

‘Experts in place as Knox appeal grinds forward’ by Andrea Vogt

"Do we have permission to take apart the handle of the knife should it be opportune and possible?"

"If it is possible to repeat the testing on the evidence, it should be done," Judge Hellman said. "Otherwise you should evaluate the procedures done by the forensic police, including the attribution of those genetic codes. If it is absolutely necessary to open the handle, make a request to the court and we will consider it."


http://www.seattlepi.com/local/433944_knox22.html


Last edited by DLW on Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Top Profile 

Offline Jools


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

From CU today, but before the hearing, so yesterday's news.
by Elio Clero Bertoldi.

The crime of Perugia: New dossier about the night of the murder.

The prosecutor's office just recently in the past few days filed papers in court (an additional active investigation -report-) requested by prosecutors Giuliano Mignini and Manuela Comodi.

The points investigated in the filed document are:

-On disco clubs openings on the night of November 1, 2007 (the night of the crime in Via della Pergola 7).

-On organizations of independent events.

-On the possible persons that might have seen Antonio Totò Curatolo, that night in Piazza Grimana.

-On the Bus Stops in front of the Gallenga building.

The investigations – were conducted by the Fly Squad, directed by Marco Chiacchera and in particular by deputy commissioner Monica Napoleoni and chief assistant Lorena Zugarini – ascertains that the big discos, in fact were closed, while those in the center were open (Velvet, Tu Candela, S. Andrews and the nightclub Kristall) and in the Corciano area (Conca del Sole and Full Moon), though none of these appear to have called the shuttle bus. In the document file there is also a report attached from the chief of the municipal police Isabella Lucarelli, that highlights the service run and the Bus stop, even the sightseeing [tourist] buses stop, were open at night, on those days. Moreover, there is the APM report [Perugia Public Transport] certifying that the last bus had passed by the Piazza at 22.00.
http://www.corrieredellumbria.it/news.asp?id=26


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Top Profile 

Offline stilicho


User avatar


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:24 am

Posts: 2492

Location: Western Canada

Highscores: 8

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Greggy wrote:
The Machine wrote:
thoughtful wrote:
The Machine wrote:
Quote:
Sollecito's DNA on Meredith's bra clasp wasn't LCN DNA.


We're not sure about this. I know that "an abundant amount" was often mentioned, but Sollecito's appeal states that the amount of DNA on the clasp was abundant, but most of it belonged to Meredith, and the amount of Sollecito's was LCN. They further claim that this information was only revealed to the defense in July 2009 when they received the extra papers from the prosecution, and that for such a small quantity, a second amplification would have been needed.

Quote:
Sulla base della documentazione scientifica in possesso dell’accusa sin dalle indagini preliminari, ma depositata nel fascicolo processuale solo in data 30 luglio 2009, anche se non è consentito stabilire con certezza il dato quantitativo del materiale rinvenuto sul gancetto del reggiseno, è possibile dimostrare che si tratti di low copy number.


Sollecito's expert claimed that Sollecito's DNA on Meredith's bra clasp was LCN DNA at the trial, but Judge Massei rejected this claim:

"In relation to this and also - at least in part - in relation to what was admitted by Professor Tagliabrachi on the ratio of 8 to 1 as originally indicated, the calculation presented by Sollecito's defence consultant and the results of these calculations must be spoken of as being "low copy number", cannot be accepted.

Moreover, the peak heights appear suitable to provide a result that is completely reliable according to the interpretation criteria demonstrated in that regard, and mentioned above. It is sufficient to recall in this regard that the lowest peak was 65 RFU. The heights of these peaks are therefore indicative of a sufficient quantity of DNA, as was also noted by Dr. Torricelli, such that there was no need to repeat the analysis." (The Massei report, pages 295-6).


It sounds to me like RS's DNA expert was trying to confuse the Judge and Court a bit since they are non-scientists by deliberately equating small amounts of DNA with the LCN protocol to confuse them and dispute the results. Some of our top hired-gun DNA experts use the same confusing tactics here in the USA in an attempt to get Juries to disregard all DNA evidence. The bra clasp DNA evidence seems very strong and the results are not equivocal. An 8:1 ratio, or more precisely 8X MK DNA to every 1X RS DNA is damming. If the RS result was pure contamination, the ratio would probably be roughly 1000:1 or less. Or in very rough actual relative amounts, if the result was due to contamination, for every nanogram (10e-9) of MK DNA, there would roughly be 1 picogram (10e-12) of RS DNA present. I believe they estimated 3-4ng of RS DNA on the bra clasp. In my opinion, that result is way too high an amount for it to be contamination by transference. In terms of Relative Fluorescent Units (RFU), once you get over 50, it is usually accepted as a positive peak result unless the noise of the assay is unacceptable due to a confounding substance. I think the independent experts should repeat the bra clasp assay simply just for completeness, but I propose that the results will be very nearly the same because there is so much of RS's DNA present. In short, whether she was dead or alive at the time, the oleaginous RS unsnapped her bra.


It all sounds like special pleading brought to a new level. What are the comparisons to the amount of genetic material left by Guede?
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline stilicho


User avatar


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:24 am

Posts: 2492

Location: Western Canada

Highscores: 8

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

fine wrote:
DLW wrote:
bobc wrote:

‘From the pictures I have seen the knife appears to be a moulded type, so I think it is less likely for there to be any hidden DNA, but it is sensible to look. I can't really see any scenario where this helps the defense though.’

If they don’t find any DNA, and I see it as extremely unlikely bordering nearly impossible unless there is a visible crack in the seal, then the defense will say it should have been there. It will give the defense another talking point. The experts I presume have not inspected that seal on the knife, but Stefanoni has and decided that disassembly wasn‘t required. It’s up to the court to expand or limit the additional testing.


_______________________

DLW,

Yes, that's what the defense team is hoping. Best case scenario for the defense: These is a tiny gap/crack found between the knife handle and blade, and found there is food debris plus DNA of both Amanda and Raffaele. Then defense will ask why was no trace of Meredith's DNA found there?

///


I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Forensics are applied to locate what is there and not what isn't. This is just more of the same old junk. It's not your fault, Fine, but I agree with you that that's exactly what they're going to do. It doesn't matter that they find only one usable Knox print in her entire home and none in her own room. Now the lack of Meredith's DNA inside a knife crack is supposed to set them all free.

rt-))
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline stilicho


User avatar


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:24 am

Posts: 2492

Location: Western Canada

Highscores: 8

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jools wrote:

....

-On the possible persons that might have seen Antonio Totò Curatolo, that night in Piazza Grimana.

-On the Bus Stops in front of the Gallenga building.

....


Lawyer Drama Theatre starring "Toto" Curatolo, Mellas and The Grey Ballcaps, and the Piazza Grimana Disco Bus Shuttlers! Special Introduction: The Man In The Beige Suit. Held over for the next four months!!

mul-)
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Agatha


Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:38 pm

Posts: 33

Highscores: 1

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

If Meredith's DNA or blood were to be found by dismantling the knife, that would be very damning evidence against AK and RS.

I have no doubt that a press release claiming "contamination" by a corrupt Italian police force and rogue prosecutor is already being drafted, ready for that eventuality. br-)) It will fool very few people, I hope.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline The Bard


User avatar


Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:46 pm

Posts: 2486

Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:58 pm   Post subject: Where have we heard this before???   

This rings a bell...

"...relatives of Mr Tabak yesterday said they were convinced he was not a murderer. Speaking in Doornenburg, near Arnhem, Pauline Tabak, the suspect’s sister-in-law, said: “He is a kind, friendly, intelligent guy. He is well-educated and has a good family and a good job. He is not capable of murdering anybody – absolutely not. He is a sweet, gentle person.

“We can’t say any more until Vincent gives us more information that he wants us to pass on. But there is no way he murdered that young woman. We are totally convinced that he is innocent.” Mr Tabak’s brother, Marcel, added: “I am shocked that he has been accused of murder. He is a nice man. They have got the wrong guy.”

Clifton residents said they were surprised by the development. Mandy Golledge, who runs The Mall Newsagent, said she was stunned and described Mr Tabak as “gentle”.

“He and his girlfriend are a nice couple,” she said. “They often came in on a Saturday for the paper. He seems like a very gentle, nice man"

_________________
Top Profile 

Offline Jools


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:31 pm   Post subject: Re: Where have we heard this before???   

The Bard wrote:
This rings a bell...

"...relatives of Mr Tabak yesterday said they were convinced he was not a murderer. Speaking in Doornenburg, near Arnhem, Pauline Tabak, the suspect’s sister-in-law, said: “He is a kind, friendly, intelligent guy. He is well-educated and has a good family and a good job. He is not capable of murdering anybody – absolutely not. He is a sweet, gentle person.

“We can’t say any more until Vincent gives us more information that he wants us to pass on. But there is no way he murdered that young woman. We are totally convinced that he is innocent.” Mr Tabak’s brother, Marcel, added: “I am shocked that he has been accused of murder. He is a nice man. They have got the wrong guy.”

Clifton residents said they were surprised by the development. Mandy Golledge, who runs The Mall Newsagent, said she was stunned and described Mr Tabak as “gentle”.

“He and his girlfriend are a nice couple,” she said. “They often came in on a Saturday for the paper. He seems like a very gentle, nice man"


I read the other day that his girlfriend left him some weeks ago. I have a feeling that the girlfriend is the one who contacted police after the victim's mum made that heartbreaking TV appeal this week. :(
Top Profile 

Offline pataz1


Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:02 am

Posts: 303

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

The Today Show's update on Amanda Knox appeal hearing gets it wrong on almost all counts

http://aklwei.wordpress.com/2011/01/22/ ... ng-report/

The former NYC homicide prosecutor also claims curatolo "may have testified falsely in other cases"... first I've heard anything like that?
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline donnie

Banned


User avatar


Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 9:43 am

Posts: 627

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

stilicho wrote:
fine wrote:
DLW wrote:
bobc wrote:

‘From the pictures I have seen the knife appears to be a moulded type, so I think it is less likely for there to be any hidden DNA, but it is sensible to look. I can't really see any scenario where this helps the defense though.’

If they don’t find any DNA, and I see it as extremely unlikely bordering nearly impossible unless there is a visible crack in the seal, then the defense will say it should have been there. It will give the defense another talking point. The experts I presume have not inspected that seal on the knife, but Stefanoni has and decided that disassembly wasn‘t required. It’s up to the court to expand or limit the additional testing.


_______________________

DLW,

Yes, that's what the defense team is hoping. Best case scenario for the defense: These is a tiny gap/crack found between the knife handle and blade, and found there is food debris plus DNA of both Amanda and Raffaele. Then defense will ask why was no trace of Meredith's DNA found there?

///


I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Forensics are applied to locate what is there and not what isn't. This is just more of the same old junk. It's not your fault, Fine, but I agree with you that that's exactly what they're going to do. It doesn't matter that they find only one usable Knox print in her entire home and none in her own room. Now the lack of Meredith's DNA inside a knife crack is supposed to set them all free.

rt-))

It's not being done to set them free though.
I believe that the testing of the "under handle" part is actually to see if there's even more Meredith's DNA or blood. It'll be worthless to drag this appeal on if they will find anything. It'll be all over.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline stilicho


User avatar


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:24 am

Posts: 2492

Location: Western Canada

Highscores: 8

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:41 pm   Post subject: Re: Where have we heard this before???   

The Bard wrote:
This rings a bell...

.....

“He and his girlfriend are a nice couple,” she said. “They often came in on a Saturday for the paper. He seems like a very gentle, nice man"


They're actually all like that. Ever read of an arrest in a murder where friends, family and neighbours all said: "Oh, old Bledsoe? Yeah, he was a vicious animal who lived in van by the river and I have no doubts he's guilty."

The key ingredient, and the one that sets Knox apart from all the rest of them, is the hiring of a PR firm to mould public opinion. Let's see if the accused tries that one.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline stint7


User avatar


Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:07 pm

Posts: 1582

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   



Finally, Mr Mellas says something in the SeattlePI article that is very true*: mop-)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Chris Mellas told seattlepi.com in a courtroom break, however, that three additional experts -- two Americans and one woman living in Australia -- are also contributing behind the scenes.

*"We have had a lot of people want to help just for their own notoriety,

but these are people who have a lot of resources and who want to help for the right reasons," Mellas said.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Wonder exactly who Mr Mellas is referring to about... "helping for their own notoriety." :?:

I can rattle off at least a dozen pretty quickly....... :lol:

Also wonder if 'cooler heads' advised him his earlier quoted soundbite about him staying in Perugia .."until Amanda comes home"...was pretty asinine

In this article he says he is staying in Perugia until the Appeal is over; which although is much less dramatic, makes a lot more sense


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Top Profile 

Offline Jools


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

OT))

Giulia Bongiorno had a cesarean baby boy delivery today in Rome's Gemelli clinic. :)
http://www.corriere.it/politica/11_genn ... aabc.shtml
Top Profile 

Offline tsit


Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 1:23 am

Posts: 62

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Fiona wrote:
I did not know that Catnip and I use this computer a lot. But I cannot bear dark backgrounds: in fact I joined PMF in the first place simply so I could change the skin to something I could read :) Maybe I am unusual but the default is impossible for me if I want to read extensively, as I did when I first came here


Yes, I almost quit reading because of the default scheme.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline stint7


User avatar


Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:07 pm

Posts: 1582

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:07 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

pataz1 wrote:
The Today Show's update on Amanda Knox appeal hearing gets it wrong on almost all counts

http://aklwei.wordpress.com/2011/01/22/ ... ng-report/

The former NYC homicide prosecutor also claims curatolo "may have testified falsely in other cases"... first I've heard anything like that?


The Today 'Reporter', Michelle Kozinski, is famous for perhaps the dumbest attempt to hoodwink her viewers with a BS story in recent TV history.
She is an absolute disgrace to her 'profession'

She was sent out to report on New Jersey flooding.
So she stages herself, pictured in rain gear paddling a canoe in the muddy 'flood waters'
This while telling viewers how severe the flooding was in the area she is reporting from

Only problem is that as she speaks, a passerby walks past her canoe... and Michelle's 'flood waters' are barely over his ankles. eek-)
Even Matt Lauer could not resist a loud laugh as the clip aired.

The clip made the rounds of all the NY talk shows and bloopers jokes for weeks

The fact that she still has a job speaks volumes for the US mainstream media management and its ethics.
http://www.observer.com/node/37809
http://wn.com/michelle_kosinski_in_canoe


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Top Profile 

Offline guermantes

Links & Gallery Moderator


User avatar


Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:49 am

Posts: 4882

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:10 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Earl Grey wrote:
Now that I see him in this new light, I also have newly discovered admiration for his baseball cap, where before I had my doubts. No longer.

Chris is a man -- the man, it could even be argued -- and he sports the hat of a man. A real man´s real hat, dammit.


Oh yeah, what about THIS hat? :)

Chris "Shifty Eyes" Mellas

Attachment:
Chris Mellas on Sky News-1a.JPG

Attachment:
Chris Mellas on Sky News-1b.JPG

Attachment:
Chris Mellas on Sky News-1c.JPG


:roll:


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Top Profile 

Offline undecided


User avatar


Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 6:52 am

Posts: 232

Highscores: 76

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:22 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Fast Pete wrote:
Fiona wrote:
Fast Pete wrote:
Fiona wrote:
Am I right in thinking that the two main planks of the appeal are discrediting the dna evidence: and discrediting Curatolo? Or is that just the first things addressed?


Thats it unless the tests all fail to corroborate at which point there would be motions for more. For now Alessi and Aviello seem to have gone AWOL.

They are, you know, the trump cards in reserve... Seems no Bongiorno in court today. Another AWOL. By May the court could be a bleak empty place.

Pete


So the defence considers that if they can cast doubt on the dna evidence that will, of itself, be enough to overturn the conviction? I am extremely dubious about that.


Is that a question to me? If it is I didnt say that. I dont believe that they believe that is enough for a moment. I merely listed what Hellman has so far allowed.

As I've been posting on TJMK everything that they ask for can blow up in their faces. This is a minefield for them. Alessi and Aviello and Guede are 3 of the mines.

Now, so is the handle of the knife. The request to open it now seems to have Chris Mellas distinctly rattled. Probably rattled all of the defense.

Pete


Clearly, taking the knife apart can blow up in A.K. and R.S.'s faces--Taking the knife apart, and looking for more DNA doesn't negate the DNA that was found on the blade. Yet, lack of DNA inside the handle (if this is what we learn)....how would you interpret that?
Top Profile 

Offline zorba


User avatar


Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:11 am

Posts: 4233

Location: London

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:22 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

The Bard wrote:
Breaking News - 32 year old Vincent Tabak has been charged with the murder of Joanna Yeates.


I'm pleased to hear that.

In the Netherlands, if one looks, the newspapers are not allowed to print photos of suspects, not even of convicts, and they are not allowed to name them. So if you look at this story in the Netherlands, his face is masked (rthe eyes) and they do not mention his name. On the other hand, victims can be named and so on, I think that is strange, because obviously not every victim wants to be named in a newsdpaper or in the media.

Never knew Bristol was as beautiful as that, Clifton is for sure, like with Meredith, it's easy to see/imagine Joanna having loved the place she was living in.

Fancy standing by and watching someone else being arrested for something you did, as serious as that, reminds me of Knox 'and' Sollecito because the latter let Patrick Lumumba roast too. In fact, Guede let Patrick roast as well.

Another thing that comes to mind is Mellas, I don't know how he thinks he will get visas to stay that long, I think they might refuse him, once Knox has ben fully put in storage.

_________________
Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
Ignorance of the law is no excuse
Top Profile 

Offline zorba


User avatar


Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:11 am

Posts: 4233

Location: London

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:48 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

undecided wrote:
Fast Pete wrote:
Fiona wrote:
Fast Pete wrote:
Fiona wrote:
Am I right in thinking that the two main planks of the appeal are discrediting the dna evidence: and discrediting Curatolo? Or is that just the first things addressed?


Thats it unless the tests all fail to corroborate at which point there would be motions for more. For now Alessi and Aviello seem to have gone AWOL.

They are, you know, the trump cards in reserve... Seems no Bongiorno in court today. Another AWOL. By May the court could be a bleak empty place.

Pete


So the defence considers that if they can cast doubt on the DNA evidence that will, of itself, be enough to overturn the conviction? I am extremely dubious about that.


Is that a question to me? If it is I didn't say that. I don't believe that they believe that is enough for a moment. I merely listed what Hellman has so far allowed.

As I've been posting on TJMK everything that they ask for can blow up in their faces. This is a minefield for them. Alessi and Aviello and Guede are 3 of the mines.

Now, so is the handle of the knife. The request to open it now seems to have Chris Mellas distinctly rattled. Probably rattled all of the defense.

Pete


Clearly, taking the knife apart can blow up in A.K. and R.S.'s faces--Taking the knife apart, and looking for more DNA doesn't negate the DNA that was found on the blade. Yet, lack of DNA inside the handle (if this is what we learn)....how would you interpret that?


If they are professional knives, they are then well made, and I'm not sure liquids would get under the hilt, unless the knife is damaged/worn, but I've never taken one apart. I just took a look at my own knives that I've had years, and the blades are worn but the hilts ate all still firmly riveted into place.

Professional chef's knives can be made of two separate pieces of metal, that fact being disguised by the piece of metal between hilt and blade, the better knives are made of a single piece of metal making them far stronger. The little connecting piece is far more vulnerable to damage, etc.

If nothing is found doesn't mean nothing went on, it only means the knife was well made.

Had Knox and Solecito been innocent, then they'd have had pints that had matched up, no matter how many joints they had, but they couldn't get anything to match up, had they not been guilty of murder then they'd have done about 2 to 5000 things differently, and Knox would not have tried to blame everything on other people.

If the police, interpreter, forensics, witnesses like Laura and Filomena and Meredith's friends ever doubted their guilt then when they suffered Knox's lies, about them ALL, I am afraid there couldn't have been any room left for doubt.

Think how it was for the police, to discuss it between themselves about what Knox said, when they all knew those things never happened, if they ever doubted then Knox lying about them too, surely did cement their opinion s of her firmly into place, they knew ten that she moist definitely is was and well forever be, a murderer.

Same with Steptoe Sollecito with his milkman's gloves on, what a prick.

_________________
Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
Ignorance of the law is no excuse
Top Profile 

Offline Catnip


User avatar


Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:08 am

Posts: 2997

Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:50 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

stilicho wrote:
Jools wrote:

....

-On the possible persons that might have seen Antonio Totò Curatolo, that night in Piazza Grimana.

-On the Bus Stops in front of the Gallenga building.

....


Lawyer Drama Theatre starring "Toto" Curatolo, Mellas and The Grey Ballcaps, and the Piazza Grimana Disco Bus Shuttlers! Special Introduction: The Man In The Beige Suit. Held over for the next four months!!

mul-)



The title of the play will, of course, be:

--"Waiting for Toto"
Top Profile 

Offline pataz1


Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:02 am

Posts: 303

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:07 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

I particularly love the "oh ---- its a video camera" look knox gives at 1:30 in the following video:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... court.html

Attachment:
knoxcamera.JPG


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Earthling


User avatar


Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:25 pm

Posts: 512

Location: USA

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:25 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

The Machine wrote:
Catnip wrote:
[Libero] adds a detail about the buses:

The prosecution witnesses will testify that "that night there were, however, buses in transit in the piazza in question and various venues were open" ("quella sera c'erano comunque degli autobus in transito nella piazza in questione e alcuni locali erano aperti.")


I was certain that there would have been other buses in Piazza Grimana on 1 November 2007 and it seems that this will be confirmed by the prosecution witnesses. Antonio Curatolo's testimony still stands up to scrutiny.

Some journalists seemed to think the fact that two clubs hadn't provided disco buses that evening was a significant blow to the prosecution's case. I wonder if they will report the news that there are prosecution witness who will testify that were buses running in Piazza Grimana after all.

Rudy went dancing later that evening, so some disco must have been open.
Top Profile 

Offline Earthling


User avatar


Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:25 pm

Posts: 512

Location: USA

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:29 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

The Bard wrote:
bobc wrote:
stint7 wrote:
Wonder what Counsellor Dalla Vedova said that got such a reaction as Amanda removed coat and sat down today ??

Caption anyone ??

"This is a murder trial"


:D

"This is not a reality show, this IS reality."
Top Profile 

Offline bucketoftea


User avatar


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:09 pm

Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:42 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Piktor? Had you noticed the likeness between Smellas in the grey hat and the Staypuft marshmallow man? Maybe just a little forked lick of ribbon for the hat is needed.
Top Profile 

Offline DLW


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:41 pm

Posts: 623

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:50 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Frank as usual has his own observations. Focusing all his attention on one facet of one piece of evidence.
Top Profile 

Offline piktor


User avatar


Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:30 pm

Posts: 1081

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:15 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

bucketoftea wrote:
Piktor? Had you noticed the likeness between Smellas in the grey hat and the Staypuft marshmallow man? Maybe just a little forked lick of ribbon for the hat is needed.


Your point has been duly noted, bucket.

We luvz
them Perugia
courts


Attachment:
stayin' puft all the way.jpg


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Last edited by piktor on Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline stilicho


User avatar


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:24 am

Posts: 2492

Location: Western Canada

Highscores: 8

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:54 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

DLW wrote:
Frank as usual has his own observations. Focusing all his attention on one facet of one piece of evidence.


No conspiracy theory, eh?

Frank's Conspiracy Blog wrote:
If, instead, it’s not a lab mistake and contamination, there’s only one other possible option...


He also says, without a hint of a giggle, that "logic prevails over science". I don't even want to begin to try to understand that nonsense but it might well be the groupies' motto.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline equinox


User avatar


Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:22 pm

Posts: 140

Location: WA, USA

Highscores: 7

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:12 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

My sister had her first baby this afternoon. She's not even named yet, but please welcome this new little person to our world. New life trumps all. Happiness!


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline TomM


User avatar


Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:28 pm

Posts: 583

Location: California

Highscores: 8

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:48 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

There are reasons to be heartened by today's result. The ruling on the request to take the knife apart indicates that Hellman and the other jurors are not interested in fishing expeditions, and more importantly, do not have a bent toward overturning the verdict.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline dgfred


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:19 pm

Posts: 1082

Location: N.C., USA

Highscores: 13

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:50 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Congrats equinox Yay-) .
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline DLW


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:41 pm

Posts: 623

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:01 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

‘Hellman has not yet ruled on whether to hear testimony from Rudy Guede, the third man convicted of Kercher's murder. Guede chose a fast-track trial and was convicted in October 28, 2008 and sentenced to 30(16)years for his part in Kercher's murder.’

'Italy's high court ruled that Guede acted as one of three conspirators in Kercher's murder. Hellman has granted the prosecution the right to have the appellate court consider the high court ruling in Knox's and Sollecito's current appeal.'

CNN

Great news equinox
Top Profile 

Offline The 411


User avatar


Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:49 pm

Posts: 1386

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:41 am   Post subject: "EQUI-NIECE" is born!   

equinox wrote:
My sister had her first baby this afternoon. She's not even named yet, but please welcome this new little person to our world. New life trumps all. Happiness!


From the "RIDICULOUS" d-)) (Chris Mellas)... to the
"SUBLIME"(YOUR LITTLE NIECE)!!! r-((

AT LAST!... A picture of a BONAFIDE la_) on PMF!
The real thing!

And to think that your niece was born on the same day as Giulia Bongiorno's little boy--What PMF synchronicity! :D
Congratulations Equi!-- She's adorable!
I feel a song coming on...
Equi-niece, Equi-niece...
(sung to the tune of
Edelweiss, Edelweiss...) wh-)
Top Profile 

Offline stilicho


User avatar


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:24 am

Posts: 2492

Location: Western Canada

Highscores: 8

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:02 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

TomM wrote:
There are reasons to be heartened by today's result. The ruling on the request to take the knife apart indicates that Hellman and the other jurors are not interested in fishing expeditions, and more importantly, do not have a bent toward overturning the verdict.


I wonder why Hellmann didn't rule on hearing from Guede. The suspense is growing!
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline teacher


Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 1:53 am

Posts: 45

Location: California, US

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:21 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Congratulations, equinox and sister and family!
Top Profile 

Offline Emerald


User avatar


Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:53 am

Posts: 1706

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:52 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

L'Chayim, equinox.

Top Profile 

Offline equinox


User avatar


Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:22 pm

Posts: 140

Location: WA, USA

Highscores: 7

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:55 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Thank you dgfred, DLW, 411, teacher! I like the tiny grin she has on her face, like she knows she is beginning a great adventure. The daddy is Italian and he gets to pick the name (with mom's veto power I'm guessing) so it could be an Italian one. I will let you all know. Giulia is a lovely name, I wonder if he considered it?
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline dgfred


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:19 pm

Posts: 1082

Location: N.C., USA

Highscores: 13

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:27 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

On several sites I have seen excuses for the AK/cocaine 'friend' story as not being credible... but the Curatolo one is for certain as guilt beyond a doubt wh-) .

IMO it would be quite SIMPLE for anyone in the pro-AK camp to name this so-called friend that wasn't on the 'special friend' list, and just happened to get into trouble for cocaine dealing after getting/making calls from/to AK.

It's not like she would have wanted to mention him (if dealing), and how many people would have known about him at all?

All these calls would have been made before her arrest, right?

He must be a good friend if calling during this stressful time period, why didn't he testify on her behalf?

Did any newer friends of hers from Italy testify for the defense?

Wouldn't cocaine have been out of her system anyway within 3(+?) days?

I don't see how any knew dna evidence inside the blade handle can help the defense... unless it is the child-killer's brother or another known killer's dna. I find that unlikely!

What if more of Meredith's dna is found in there?
As Hudson in Aliens would say "Its game over man, game over". Seems like a big chance being taken by the defense IMO.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Emerald


User avatar


Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:53 am

Posts: 1706

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:29 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Scare mom with a name like Rainbow Avenue before you reveal the real choice.
Top Profile 

Offline dgfred


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:19 pm

Posts: 1082

Location: N.C., USA

Highscores: 13

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:36 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

stilicho wrote:
TomM wrote:
There are reasons to be heartened by today's result. The ruling on the request to take the knife apart indicates that Hellman and the other jurors are not interested in fishing expeditions, and more importantly, do not have a bent toward overturning the verdict.


I wonder why Hellmann didn't rule on hearing from Guede. The suspense is growing!


Would the prosecution need him at all if the knife and bra-clasp evidence is verified... again?

They would have all the reports of his trial anyway, and since his verdict has been upheld in addition to mentioning 'contributing' to the murder- Could they trust him enough to get up there and give testimony?
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Emerald


User avatar


Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:53 am

Posts: 1706

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:57 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

dgfred wrote:
What if more of Meredith's dna is found in there?
As Hudson in Aliens would say "Its game over man, game over". Seems like a big chance being taken by the defense IMO.


Even if no DNA of Meredith is found inside the handle doesn't exonerate Amanda. Especially if DNA not even human from cooking purposes is not found there.
Top Profile 

Offline stilicho


User avatar


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:24 am

Posts: 2492

Location: Western Canada

Highscores: 8

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 7:16 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

dgfred wrote:
stilicho wrote:
TomM wrote:
There are reasons to be heartened by today's result. The ruling on the request to take the knife apart indicates that Hellman and the other jurors are not interested in fishing expeditions, and more importantly, do not have a bent toward overturning the verdict.


I wonder why Hellmann didn't rule on hearing from Guede. The suspense is growing!


Would the prosecution need him at all if the knife and bra-clasp evidence is verified... again?

They would have all the reports of his trial anyway, and since his verdict has been upheld in addition to mentioning 'contributing' to the murder- Could they trust him enough to get up there and give testimony?


You're right there on all counts. I suppose my question was more about why Hellmann didn't rule on it one way or the other. It always seems like there's suspense on many levels. I don't doubt that the verdict will confirm that of the first court but it's interesting how there is always a "development".

On a separate issue, I just finished watching an episode of 48 Hours Mystery about Tausha Fields. Set aside for the moment that CBS is on the crap list here because this was a worthwhile show. The woman involved might be another star for the gallery of female killers for a number of reasons.

She was sentenced last year to life without parole for the murder of one of her ex-husbands (she had several) in 2004. The wrinkle in this case is that she was arrested only on the basis of several interviews (comprising many more hours than that of Knox over a much longer time) in which she changed her story several times. There was no physical evidence placing her at the crimescene. She didn't even pull the trigger on the firearm used to kill her ex-husband. The only evidence used to convict her was her changing stories, lying to the police about the location of the grave, and the testimony of the man (another ex-husband) who actually pulled the trigger. Two other men she had been involved with offered additional evidence of her involvement.

The unique part of Tausha Fields' story and eventual conviction that relates to Knox was the emergence of a confirmed ability to manipulate the people around her, especially men. The groupies are fond of explaining that Knox could not possibly have had any influence on the men in her life in spite of bountiful evidence to the contrary. And yet, almost all the men who were interviewed for the story (and some of the women) said that Tausha had an extraordinary ability to manipulate those who came close to her.

Fields lured one of her ex-husbands to a remote location and manipulated another ex into shooting him in the chest six times and burying the body. And yet the groupies state unequivocally that a woman could never ever manipulate two men into doing what she had planned.

I expect them to pen a retraction any moment now.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline TomM


User avatar


Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:28 pm

Posts: 583

Location: California

Highscores: 8

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:00 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

stilicho wrote:
dgfred wrote:
stilicho wrote:
TomM wrote:
There are reasons to be heartened by today's result. The ruling on the request to take the knife apart indicates that Hellman and the other jurors are not interested in fishing expeditions, and more importantly, do not have a bent toward overturning the verdict.


I wonder why Hellmann didn't rule on hearing from Guede. The suspense is growing!


Would the prosecution need him at all if the knife and bra-clasp evidence is verified... again?

They would have all the reports of his trial anyway, and since his verdict has been upheld in addition to mentioning 'contributing' to the murder- Could they trust him enough to get up there and give testimony?


Your right there on all counts. I suppose my question was more about why Hellmann didn't rule on it one way or the other. It always seems like there's suspense on many levels. I don't doubt that the verdict will confirm that of the first court but it's interesting how there is always a "development".

On a separate issue, I just finished watching an episode of 48 Hours Mystery about Tausha Fields. Set aside for the moment that CBS is on the crap list here because this was a worthwhile show. The woman involved might be another star for the gallery of female killers for a number of reasons.

She was sentenced last year to life without parole for the murder of one of her ex-husbands (she had several) in 2004. The wrinkle in this case is that she was arrested only on the basis of several interviews (comprising many more hours than that of Knox over a much longer time) in which she changed her story several times. There was no physical evidence placing her at the crimescene. She didn't even pull the trigger on the firearm used to kill her ex-husband. The only evidence used to convict her was her changing stories, lying to the police about the location of the grave, and the testimony of the man (another ex-husband) who actually pulled the trigger. Two other men she had been involved with offered additional evidence of her involvement.

The unique part of Tausha Fields' story and eventual conviction that relates to Knox was the emergence of a confirmed ability to manipulate the people around her, especially men. The groupies are fond of explaining that Knox could not possibly have had any influence on the men in her life in spite of bountiful evidence to the contrary. And yet, almost all the men who were interviewed for the story (and some of the women) said that Tausha had an extraordinary ability to manipulate those who came close to her.

Fields lured one of her ex-husbands to a remote location and manipulated another ex into shooting him in the chest six times and burying the body. And yet the groupies state unequivocally that a woman could never ever manipulate two men into doing what she had planned.

I expect them to pen a retraction any moment now.

Hi S. I saw the last half of this. I missed the earlier interrogation, changing stories part, so the prosecution case looked thin to me.

Regarding your earlier question, I don't know why Hellman didn't rule on RG. Was it discussed today? I have read some things that suggest RG would be a rebuttal witness if Avielo?, iirc, testifies that RG said in prison that AK and RS had nothing to do with it.

Although the prosecution and the defense have parity in most things, I wonder if there is some restriction that prevents the prosecution from putting him on the stand in a capacity other than as a rebuttal to defense-proferred testimony.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 868

Location: New York

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:31 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

TomM wrote:
Regarding your earlier question, I don't know why Hellman didn't rule on RG. Was it discussed today? I have read some things that suggest RG would be a rebuttal witness if Avielo?, iirc, testifies that RG said in prison that AK and RS had nothing to do with it.

Although the prosecution and the defense have parity in most things, I wonder if there is some restriction that prevents the prosecution from putting him on the stand in a capacity other than as a rebuttal to defense-proferred testimony.


Hi TomM and Stilicho. The prosecution got exactly the outcome it wanted and is pleased. Their Guede request now on hold was a shot across the defense bows. If Alessi or Aviello are put on the stand then Guede will also be there to heatedly rebut them.

The prosecution interviewed all three of them at Viterbo Prison in 2010 though the interviews were not so far made public. TomM wisely remarked above that Hellman is allowing no fishing expeditions, and my guess is we won't now see Alessi, Aviello or Guede.

Whole books could and should be written about how smart the prosecution has always been. Oh yes... no big bucks to be made there.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 868

Location: New York

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:15 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Jools wrote:
Here is a short video clip from today's session.

At 0.32 seconds, is that David C. Anderson sitting next to AK ? I think he is. Also check Paxton @ video end all chummy, chummy with RS.
mop-) mop-)

(VIDEO)


To their credit, Knox and Mellas and everybody else seem to be ignoring the guy. If it is Anderson - we are told that it is - it looks like his attempted leapfrog of Rocco Girlanda as White Knight numero uno has gone limp.

Pete
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline undecided


User avatar


Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 6:52 am

Posts: 232

Highscores: 76

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:19 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

stilicho wrote:
dgfred wrote:
stilicho wrote:
TomM wrote:
There are reasons to be heartened by today's result. The ruling on the request to take the knife apart indicates that Hellman and the other jurors are not interested in fishing expeditions, and more importantly, do not have a bent toward overturning the verdict.


I wonder why Hellmann didn't rule on hearing from Guede. The suspense is growing!


Would the prosecution need him at all if the knife and bra-clasp evidence is verified... again?

They would have all the reports of his trial anyway, and since his verdict has been upheld in addition to mentioning 'contributing' to the murder- Could they trust him enough to get up there and give testimony?


You're right there on all counts. I suppose my question was more about why Hellmann didn't rule on it one way or the other. It always seems like there's suspense on many levels. I don't doubt that the verdict will confirm that of the first court but it's interesting how there is always a "development".

On a separate issue, I just finished watching an episode of 48 Hours Mystery about Tausha Fields. Set aside for the moment that CBS is on the crap list here because this was a worthwhile show. The woman involved might be another star for the gallery of female killers for a number of reasons.

She was sentenced last year to life without parole for the murder of one of her ex-husbands (she had several) in 2004. The wrinkle in this case is that she was arrested only on the basis of several interviews (comprising many more hours than that of Knox over a much longer time) in which she changed her story several times. There was no physical evidence placing her at the crimescene. She didn't even pull the trigger on the firearm used to kill her ex-husband. The only evidence used to convict her was her changing stories, lying to the police about the location of the grave, and the testimony of the man (another ex-husband) who actually pulled the trigger. Two other men she had been involved with offered additional evidence of her involvement.

The unique part of Tausha Fields' story and eventual conviction that relates to Knox was the emergence of a confirmed ability to manipulate the people around her, especially men. The groupies are fond of explaining that Knox could not possibly have had any influence on the men in her life in spite of bountiful evidence to the contrary. And yet, almost all the men who were interviewed for the story (and some of the women) said that Tausha had an extraordinary ability to manipulate those who came close to her.

Fields lured one of her ex-husbands to a remote location and manipulated another ex into shooting him in the chest six times and burying the body. And yet the groupies state unequivocally that a woman could never ever manipulate two men into doing what she had planned.

I expect them to pen a retraction any moment now.



haha...I just watched that today too (online).
Tausha wasn't very believable to me, but her ex was even less so.
I felt as if he had plenty to gain by fingering her as the planner, but
at the same time, she may have been sneakier about manipulating someone into commiting
murder for her. I think she knew that her (then) husband wasn't very stable and would kill in a fit of rage,
and so brought her former husband there to his farm purposely. I'm not sure she set it all up
WITH her ex, but do think her ex feels as if she manipulated him into murder by feeding
him stories to make him jealous....(or making him believe the ex was still in love with her or whatnot).
Top Profile 

Offline stilicho


User avatar


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:24 am

Posts: 2492

Location: Western Canada

Highscores: 8

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:30 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

undecided wrote:
stilicho wrote:
dgfred wrote:
Would the prosecution need him at all if the knife and bra-clasp evidence is verified... again?

They would have all the reports of his trial anyway, and since his verdict has been upheld in addition to mentioning 'contributing' to the murder- Could they trust him enough to get up there and give testimony?


You're right there on all counts. I suppose my question was more about why Hellmann didn't rule on it one way or the other. It always seems like there's suspense on many levels. I don't doubt that the verdict will confirm that of the first court but it's interesting how there is always a "development".

On a separate issue, I just finished watching an episode of 48 Hours Mystery about Tausha Fields. Set aside for the moment that CBS is on the crap list here because this was a worthwhile show. The woman involved might be another star for the gallery of female killers for a number of reasons.

She was sentenced last year to life without parole for the murder of one of her ex-husbands (she had several) in 2004. The wrinkle in this case is that she was arrested only on the basis of several interviews (comprising many more hours than that of Knox over a much longer time) in which she changed her story several times. There was no physical evidence placing her at the crimescene. She didn't even pull the trigger on the firearm used to kill her ex-husband. The only evidence used to convict her was her changing stories, lying to the police about the location of the grave, and the testimony of the man (another ex-husband) who actually pulled the trigger. Two other men she had been involved with offered additional evidence of her involvement.

The unique part of Tausha Fields' story and eventual conviction that relates to Knox was the emergence of a confirmed ability to manipulate the people around her, especially men. The groupies are fond of explaining that Knox could not possibly have had any influence on the men in her life in spite of bountiful evidence to the contrary. And yet, almost all the men who were interviewed for the story (and some of the women) said that Tausha had an extraordinary ability to manipulate those who came close to her.

Fields lured one of her ex-husbands to a remote location and manipulated another ex into shooting him in the chest six times and burying the body. And yet the groupies state unequivocally that a woman could never ever manipulate two men into doing what she had planned.

I expect them to pen a retraction any moment now.



haha...I just watched that today too (online).
Tausha wasn't very believable to me, but her ex was even less so.
I felt as if he had plenty to gain by fingering her as the planner, but at the same time, she may have been sneakier about it. I think she knew that her (then) husband wasn't very stable and would kill in a fit of rage, and so brought her former husband there purposely. I'm not sure she set it all up WITH her ex, but do think her ex feels as if she manipulated him into murder by feeding him stories to make him jealous....


@undecided & TomM:

I agree that the prosecution case was thin. In fact, it was scarcely visible under clear light.

So there's that.

However, the groupies usually state two things without question:

1] Changing your stories and repeatedly lying to the police will suffer you no consequences whatsoever in the USA.

2] A woman is incapable of manipulation to the point of including two men in plan to commit murder (even if one of them was the victim).

Those two points were illustrated to me amply as being completely mistaken. Remember, these true crime shows are merely the tips of the icebergs. There are hundreds of murders committed annually by women in the US. Not all of them are newsworthy and a mere handful wind up featured on CBS or other similar shows.

Yet, I would gamble, more than a modest percentage include both of those features I outlined above.

And LWOP for simply lying and not even holding the gun. Knox ought to consider herself exceedingly lucky.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2308

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:10 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Nick Pisa's article for Sky News is one-sided. He has included interviews Chris Mellas and David C Anderson in his piece and repeated the claims about Antonio Curatolo made by the defence lawyers. He hasn't interviewed anyone who thinks Knox and Sollecito are guilty or mentioned the fact that the prosecution have witnesses who will confirm that buses were running in Piazza Grimana on the night of the murder.

It is also misleading to claim that Curatolo is a "key witness who during the trial put Knox and Sollecito at the scene of the crime..." Knox and Sollecito weren't convicted of Meredith's murder on the strength of Curatolo's testimony and Piazza Grimana can't be described as the "scene of the crime".

Nick Pisa claims that Knox and Sollecito have always claimed that they were at home the night Meredith was killed:

"During his evidence he pointed to the couple, who have always insisted they were at home the night Meredith was killed and did not leave until the following morning."

This is clearly not true. Amanda Knox stated on at least four separate occasions that she was at the cottage when Meredith was killed and Sollecito has specifically stated that Knox went out at around 9.00pm and returned at about 1.00am.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World- ... on_Resumes
Top Profile 

Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 868

Location: New York

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:35 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

The Machine wrote:
Nick Pisa's article for Sky News is one-sided. He has included interviews Chris Mellas and David C Anderson in his piece and repeated the claims about Antonio Curatolo made by the defence lawyers. He hasn't interviewed anyone who thinks Knox and Sollecito are guilty or mentioned the fact that the prosecution have witnesses who will confirm that buses were running in Piazza Grimana on the night of the murder.

It is also misleading to claim that Curatolo is a "key witness who during the trial put Knox and Sollecito at the scene of the crime..." Knox and Sollecito weren't convicted of Meredith's murder on the strength of Curatolo's testimony and Piazza Grimana can't be described as the "scene of the crime".

Nick Pisa claims that Knox and Sollecito have always claimed that they were at home the night Meredith was killed:

"During his evidence he pointed to the couple, who have always insisted they were at home the night Meredith was killed and did not leave until the following morning."

This is clearly not true. Amanda Knox stated on at least four separate occasions that she was at the cottage when Meredith was killed and Sollecito has specifically stated that Knox went out at around 9.00pm and returned at about 1.00am.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World- ... on_Resumes


Hi Machine. Great points.

Almost word for word the same as a Nick Pisa article in the Daily Telegraph 24 hours ago. He must be double billing...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... court.html
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline bucketoftea


User avatar


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:09 pm

Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:04 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Emerald wrote:
Scare mom with a name like Rainbow Avenue before you reveal the real choice.


I had fun winding up my friends and family telling everyone my new daughter would be called Kylie Madonna, he he he. Congratulations to Equinox and her sister and family. Wonderful news! Lucky you to have a niece....they're wonderful....I even managed to" keep" my husband's niece after the divorce. Thick as thieves we remain.

Thank you Piktor for the piktor! I knew you'd see what I did. ('cept he lookin' like a dirty grey marshmallow).


I've been wondering how G. Mignini may be persuaded to make public the taped conversation featuring Miss Preston that caused him to be brought in for an interview. Gosh, I'd love to hear that.
Top Profile 

Offline bucketoftea


User avatar


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:09 pm

Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:45 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

"Anonymous LMT said..(@ Frank's)

Frank, I always appreciate your work. You are a awesome writer and have a gift to bring out the larger issues. Great job!

Maybe we only have in common urology. I understand that your father was a urologist. My father was a urologist and so is Dr. Sollecito."

http://www.gadgetlounge.net/geek/urine- ... batteries/
Top Profile 

Offline Agatha


Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:38 pm

Posts: 33

Highscores: 1

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:55 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Congratulations, Equinox!
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Pelerine


User avatar


Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:19 pm

Posts: 414

Highscores: 2

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:56 am   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

What a wonderful banner! With Meredith included!
Thank you Pictor - astonishing work! Perfectly reflecting the tenor of the PMF.

And thank you Clander for your relentless work for the board, and as have also done by Skep and Michael.

And thanks to all our members making this board so devoted to justice and such a warmhearted place - despite so many of you have to carry a heavy load of personal sorrow and problems.
I sincerely hope that everything turns to the better.

hugz-)

_________________
r-(( Rest in Peace Meredith Kercher r-((
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline bucketoftea


User avatar


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:09 pm

Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Thank you, Pelerine. This is not the first time your good wishes have been noted. Thank you.

hugz-)
Top Profile 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Congratulations Equinox! :)

And Patches, welcome to PMF!!! :)

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline bucketoftea


User avatar


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:09 pm

Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

OT Jo Yeates update. Vincent Tabak has been charged with her murder. A tearful woman gave the tip that led to his arrest following an emotional plea and recnstuction of Jo's last sightings on television. Tabak knew Jo through their work, but he also lived in the flat next door to Jo's. I hope this is it; it looks to be.
Top Profile 

Offline observer


Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:36 pm

Posts: 178

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Quickie question - how long did it take for Curatolo to go to the police with his testimony? Thanks.
Top Profile 

Offline piktor


User avatar


Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:30 pm

Posts: 1081

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

bucketoftea wrote:
"Anonymous LMT said..(@ Frank's)

Frank, I always appreciate your work. You are a awesome writer and have a gift to bring out the larger issues. Great job!

Maybe we only have in common urology. I understand that your father was a urologist. My father was a urologist and so is Dr. Sollecito."

http://www.gadgetlounge.net/geek/urine- ... batteries/


This comment is a keeper. pp-( pp-( Urine-powered batteries rock!!!! pp-( pp-(

The Kidney Pie Fraternity in the midst of the Perugia courtroom melange is a moving beyond-words tableaux for the ages.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline bucketoftea


User avatar


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:09 pm

Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

LOL kidney pie.
Top Profile 

Offline Catnip


User avatar


Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:08 am

Posts: 2997

Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

It was a closed hearing.

Alessandro Capponi at the [Corriere] has an interesting take on the experts' request to open up the knife handle.

"It was announced as a routine hearing, instead the orders that the Appeal Court has just made is something else: in this case, routine does not exist. ...[Straight after being sworn in] the two experts asked to be able to take the murder weapon apart, to be able 'to open the handle of the knife, detach it from the internal part of the blade'. In sum, they want to look for new traces, search out blood and DNA where no-one, so far, has looked. A buzz in the courtroom. And suddenly prosecution and defence join battle."

Maresca (for the Kerchers) advanced "a clear and precise opposition, they're forcing the Code". Turning to them, he said, "We starting off very badly, like this."

Maori (for Sollecito) pointed out to the hearing that "the experts want to find the truth. If someone is interested in not finding it, then that's their problem..."

"The defendant, Amanda Knox, wrapped in her black coat, palid and thinner than before, observes without a breath. And without understanding, to judge from the dartings [rimbalzi="rebounds"] of her glance."



"It doesn't need a detective to work out that the Court will not oppose the new request. It's enough to listen to President Claudio Pratillo-Hellmann straight after the question from the two experts: he says only one word - 'Yes'.

Comodi (for the prosecution) intervenes: "But why? Finding other traces is not in the terms of reference [quesito = "question"] proposed by the Court."

The Procurator [senior Crown Counsel] Costagliola (for the prosecution) also intervenes: "Another term of reference must be formulated."

Dalla Vedova (for Knox) says: "the term of reference is general, it speaks of, quote, new technical findings..."

In the end, the President intervenes, turning towards the experts, choosing a formula less explicit than 'Yes': "Here Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are being tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher, if in your investigation other genetic traces are found, refer them to the Prosecutor's Office [the procura]. The initial mandate is ample, what will turn up, we'll see. If you consider it necessary to open the handle of the knife, make a specific request, and the Court will evaluate it".

Ghirga (for Knox) is satisfied: "It's another important step towards ascertaining the truth".

Giuseppe Novelli from the Tor Vergata college will be the prosecution consultant.

Capponi then closes his report with mention of Curatolo and of hearing dates and: "A new trial is starting, therefore. And those upcoming hearings, certainly, won't be routine."



Note:
I don't know enough about the Criminal Procedure Code to understand how or why the defence is stretching it, nor why the defence are OK, and the prosecution not, with the inside of the knife being tested, other than, perhaps, anything new being found will sufficiently delay the case (when is the expiration period, both of the charges and of the precautionary imprisonment period?).

Possible candidates for the source of Amanda's surprised look (in other articles) when told by Dalla Vedova of something could be, I suspect, Bongiorno's baby boy (since photographs aren't allowed during session, I presume); but, then, it was when she was taking her coat off (assuming she only did that once), so it could have been after the experts' swearing in, so it might be finding out about the experts' additional side-quest (to borrow a phrase from VR). Who knows.
Top Profile 

Offline stint7


User avatar


Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:07 pm

Posts: 1582

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Couple reactions from morning catch up readings co-)

Piktor has me nodding head at a great banner becoming even better, and later has me in stitches again with the merry marsmallow men

Equinox has me feeling so warm and cuddly and so happy for her new niece and happy Sister

Pelerine has me muttering...exactly....right on

Fast Pete and Machine have me categorizing and memorizing more great factual info about case.

Each and every post has me happy to be among such a wonderful bunch of intellects and personalities on a bright sunny Sunday morn

mul-)


Last edited by stint7 on Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top Profile 

Offline Emerald


User avatar


Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:53 am

Posts: 1706

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

I think I missed something. Not unusual for me, I know.

Several posters around the net have said Raffaele is now officially refuting Amanda's claim to have been with him all night. Is this true?
Top Profile 

Offline The Bard


User avatar


Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:46 pm

Posts: 2486

Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

WOW!!! I disappear for a couple of days and come back to find a beautiful banner and a beautiful baby!!! Congratulations equinox!!! She's a stunner.

Pik - you know my feelings about your banner. I think it is absolutely perfect. Thank you so much for taking time to make this beautiful artwork for us, and for Meredith. It is a delight to behold!

Thanks everyone too for your kind words to me about Mr Bard too. He is fine now, and the physio will get hold of him next week, so all will be well we hope. It is times like these we realise how special our loved ones are to us, and how much their well-being matters. Everyone on PMF seems to have very rich, full and love-filled lives, which is perhaps what makes them so able to empathise and feel for Meredith's parents and family - and for other members of the board. I know some people don't believe it, but the majority of people here really do. You're a lovely bunch. I can't imagine a single one of you 'withholding your condolences' for over three years.

_________________
Top Profile 

Offline Catnip


User avatar


Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:08 am

Posts: 2997

Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

observer wrote:
Quickie question - how long did it take for Curatolo to go to the police with his testimony? Thanks.


Local journalists went around trying to find people and track down information and persuade them that what they saw or heard might be important.

Curatolo was one of those. They kept him out of harm's way for a bit.

From memory, I think the significance of his information (that is, that the lovebirds weren't home all night) became known, and would have had meaning, to the investigators about a third to halfway through the investigation (March 2008?, at a guess, give or take), even though he had been asked routine questions the day after the murder.
Top Profile 

Offline bucketoftea


User avatar


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:09 pm

Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:14 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Emerald wrote:
I think I missed something. Not unusual for me, I know.

Several posters around the net have said Raffaele is now officially refuting Amanda's claim to have been with him all night. Is this true?


Uh-oh! Maybe that accounts for AK's surprised expression.
Top Profile 

Offline The Bard


User avatar


Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:46 pm

Posts: 2486

Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

I have to say I refuse to watch or read any 'news' report by Nick Pisa. I find he is the most appallingly crap journalist I have ever had the misfortune to come across - and Lord knows we have had a few to pick from. To me his reports somehow always seem to have 'ME, and MY BEAUTIFUL CAREER' written all over them in invisible ink. He really fancies himself (for some reason). If he would just get the FACTS right, show some balls by asking the odd vaguely challenging question, and try and adhere in JUST ONE REPORT to the notion of journalistic impartiality I would have some respect. I have never seen it. He has toadied up to the KnoxMellas from day one, and his reports are often factually inaccurate. I won't read them any more. It's pointless, like watching the interviews with Edda and Curt: you know what you're going to get and it's always the same old rubbish.

_________________
Top Profile 

Offline Catnip


User avatar


Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:08 am

Posts: 2997

Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

The Bard wrote:
Everyone on PMF seems to have very rich, full and love-filled lives, which is perhaps what makes them so able to empathise and feel for Meredith's parents and family - and for other members of the board. I know some people don't believe it, but the majority of people here really do. You're a lovely bunch. I can't imagine a single one of you 'withholding your condolences' for over three years.


What Bard said.

I think I would become ill, by being so mean as to "withhold condolences", for three hours or days, let alone three years. Society is not built by isolating people.
Top Profile 

Offline Emerald


User avatar


Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:53 am

Posts: 1706

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

bucketoftea wrote:
Emerald wrote:
I think I missed something. Not unusual for me, I know.

Several posters around the net have said Raffaele is now officially refuting Amanda's claim to have been with him all night. Is this true?


Uh-oh! Maybe that accounts for AK's surprised expression.


Well, where I read it is not the best place to get the facts. That's why I come here to find out what's really going on.
Top Profile 

Offline Fiona


User avatar


Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:54 am

Posts: 1080

Highscores: 7

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

I think that the issue over opening the knife handle is probably to do with the remit of the reviewing experts. Only guessing: but it may be that the they were originally tasked to review the existing dna evidence: that is to retest the material where possible and to review the records and protocols and procedures which were adopted where that is not possible. The aim being to establishe whether the existing dna evidence is sound

In asking to open the knife handle you can see it two ways. You can argue that they are not reviewing existing evidence, but are in fact looking for new evidence. You might even say that they presume their conclusion, because the implication is that this should have been done at the outset and that the forensics team were sloppy in not doing so. Doesn't matter if they find something or nothing: the suggestion remains that the job originally done was not thorough. This, I presume, is the basis of the prosecution objection.


The other consideration is related but it hangs on the nature of the Italian system. I understand that both prosecution and defence can introduce new evidence at this stage:but I was not aware that the experts could as well. However in a hybrid system, with retained elements of an inquisitorial system (however diluted) I would not be surprised if the court was inclined to grant them the right to do this: the aim is to find out what happened: not to win the argument. So in an inquisitorial system this should not be excluded, I think,and the defence is resting on that. The Italian system is hybrid and so I imagine the prosecution is focussing on the principles underlying adversarial systems: I think in those systems new evidence could not be actively sought in this way at this stage of the proceedings.


Last edited by Fiona on Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Stan


User avatar


Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:35 am

Posts: 130

Highscores: 5

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

OMG....the new banner is unbelievable. It has such a sparkle of life. Words just fail me on how touching it is. Piktor you are truely gifted wor-)) wor-)) wor-))

Thank you to everyone who made it possible to have such a stunning header to the forum hugz-)
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Emerald


User avatar


Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:53 am

Posts: 1706

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

What banner? I want to see it too.
Top Profile 

Offline observer


Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:36 pm

Posts: 178

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Thanks Catnip!
Top Profile 

Offline Jools


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Fast Pete wrote:
Jools wrote:
Here is a short video clip from today's session.

At 0.32 seconds, is that David C. Anderson sitting next to AK ? I think he is. Also check Paxton @ video end all chummy, chummy with RS.
mop-) mop-)

(VIDEO)


To their credit, Knox and Mellas and everybody else seem to be ignoring the guy. If it is Anderson - we are told that it is - it looks like his attempted leapfrog of Rocco Girlanda as White Knight numero uno has gone limp.

Pete

MYSTERY SOLVED! THE MAN IN THE BEIGE SUIT IS DEFENCE FORENSICS EXPERT WALTER PATUMI. :lol:

Here is another picture of him with AK. http://www.daylife.com/photo/0eb57mE0YpeoR


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Top Profile 

Offline Hammerite


User avatar


Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:46 pm

Posts: 517

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Catnip wrote:
stilicho wrote:
Jools wrote:

....

-On the possible persons that might have seen Antonio Totò Curatolo, that night in Piazza Grimana.

-On the Bus Stops in front of the Gallenga building.

....


Lawyer Drama Theatre starring "Toto" Curatolo, Mellas and The Grey Ballcaps, and the Piazza Grimana Disco Bus Shuttlers! Special Introduction: The Man In The Beige Suit. Held over for the next four months!!

mul-)



The title of the play will, of course, be:

--"Waiting for Toto"


Got that Catnip, nice one.

Well it would accurately reflect the pace at which judicial events amble along here.

Although it not seen as very PC among the thespian community to say this but I feel Beckett’s ‘Waiting for Godo’ is an incredibly boring play to sit through. I actually received a slightly bruised ankle from Mrs. H for “fidgeting and passing smart comments” throughout a performance once; although she did (reluctantly) admit to find some of the comments “vaguely amusing.” afterwards. Hmmm, must be losing my touch. The only line I actually remember from it is

“We are all born mad. Some remain so."

and this has hardly bust into the ranks of Shakespearian wisdom. Maybe a large gin & tonic beforehand would have helped.


Greetings to Bard. r-((
Congrats to Equinox. tt-)

Welcome to Patches. o-((
Huge appreciation to Piktor. th-)

Huge admiration of all posters. cl-)

There is never a time that it isn’t worth coming here for visit even if one has nothing to add to the debate.


Last edited by Hammerite on Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Patzu


User avatar


Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 5:10 pm

Posts: 158

Highscores: 1

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

Emerald wrote:
What banner? I want to see it too.


You need to be on the default dark board display.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2308

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

The Bard wrote:
I have to say I refuse to watch or read any 'news' report by Nick Pisa. I find he is the most appallingly crap journalist I have ever had the misfortune to come across - and Lord knows we have had a few to pick from. To me his reports somehow always seem to have 'ME, and MY BEAUTIFUL CAREER' written all over them in invisible ink. He really fancies himself (for some reason). If he would just get the FACTS right, show some balls by asking the odd vaguely challenging question, and try and adhere in JUST ONE REPORT to the notion of journalistic impartiality I would have some respect. I have never seen it. He has toadied up to the KnoxMellas from day one, and his reports are often factually inaccurate. I won't read them any more. It's pointless, like watching the interviews with Edda and Curt: you know what you're going to get and it's always the same old rubbish.


I don't think Nick Pisa has toadied up to Amanda Knox's family from day one. Edda Mellas and Chris Mellas don't like him and they have both confronted him on different occasions. It's not the first time that these two have attempted to bully journalists who don't toe the FOA party line either. Chris Mellas has sent obscene text messages to a female journalist and Edda Mellas has unleashed her fury on at least two journalists.

I object to one-sided reports that contain factually inaccurate statements. Nick Pisa has no excuses for erroneously claiming that Knox and Sollecito have always maintained they were at home. I really don't understand why so many journalists feel the need to repeatedly interview Curt Knox, Edda Mellas and Chris Mellas.
Top Profile 

Offline piktor


User avatar


Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:30 pm

Posts: 1081

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

The Bard wrote:
WOW!!! I disappear for a couple of days and come back to find a beautiful banner and a beautiful baby!!! Congratulations equinox!!! She's a stunner.

Pik - you know my feelings about your banner. I think it is absolutely perfect. Thank you so much for taking time to make this beautiful artwork for us, and for Meredith. It is a delight to behold!

Thanks everyone too for your kind words to me about Mr Bard too. He is fine now, and the physio will get hold of him next week, so all will be well we hope. It is times like these we realise how special our loved ones are to us, and how much their well-being matters. Everyone on PMF seems to have very rich, full and love-filled lives, which is perhaps what makes them so able to empathise and feel for Meredith's parents and family - and for other members of the board. I know some people don't believe it, but the majority of people here really do. You're a lovely bunch. I can't imagine a single one of you 'withholding your condolences' for over three years.


Thank you all for your kind words. wor-))

It's all Clander's fault, I have to say. First he pm'd me about doing a banner. I showed him the first draft image and he gave me comments that made it a lot easier to refine the image. Michael also contributed suggestions and Clander had more suggestions for the final stretch. zinnia spontaneously contributed with her opinion about including Meredith's picture.

PMF is a genuine socialistic community. Each member contributes generously with their hard work and knowledge for a common purpose. Free of charge! co-)

PMF is also unique in its care for the victim in this stupid crime. r-((

I am amazed at everyone's gift of talent and generosity in sharing it here. It all honors Meredith in a truly moving human way. If Meredith is watching, I am sure she approves. bu-)
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XXII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JAN 22 -   

The Bard wrote:
I have to say I refuse to watch or read any 'news' report by Nick Pisa. I find he is the most appallingly crap journalist I have ever had the misfortune to come across - and Lord knows we have had a few to pick from. To me his reports somehow always seem to have 'ME, and MY BEAUTIFUL CAREER' written all over them in invisible ink. He really fancies himself (for some reason). If he would just get the FACTS right, show some balls by asking the odd vaguely challenging question, and try and adhere in JUST ONE REPORT to the notion of journalistic impartiality I would have some respect. I have never seen it. He has toadied up to the KnoxMellas from day one, and his reports are often factually inaccurate. I won't read them any more. It's pointless, like watching the interviews with Edda and Curt: you know what you're going to get and it's always the same old rubbish.



That's because Nick Pisa is a reporter or correspondent rather then a journalist. He's also freelance which means he has to report for multiple outlets.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 Page 1 of 46 [ 11433 posts ]
Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 46  Next


Who is online
Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot] and 0 guests

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

  

Judge Massei Sentencing Report     The Meredith Kercher Fund     The Murder Of Meredith Kercher Wiki     True Justice For Meredith Kercher     Judge Nencini Sentencing Report 


29,421,700 Views