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XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 - DEC 21, 10

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:40 pm   Post subject: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 - DEC 21, 10   

XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 - DEC 21






This is the main discussion thread regarding the achievment of truth and justice for Meredith Kercher and her family. Meredith, barely 21 years old, was brutally murdered in her own home on the 1st November 2007 whilst studying in Perugia, Italy.

To read the previous main discussion thread, please view XIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUGUST 19 - OCT 28, 2010

Michael (Co-Administrator/Moderator of Perugia Murder File)

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"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline dgfred


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

I agree with Piktor about all their stories (lies) being for their own benefit.

Of course RG may have been pointing out his own point of view because of knowing AK. After all she must have been flirting some with her knowing he liked her, he probably knew of her and RS's drug useage, then she still pushes him towards Meredith. He was also probably pissed off that she had gotten him (with his own weaknesses) into this mess in the first place.
His statements likely have some truths hidden in them, but for sure those truths are only mentioned for the benefit of whichever liar is lying at the time. Too hard to decipher which is truth and which is a lie.
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Offline dgfred


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Then again, Meredith may have actually said the same... which was highly accurate at the time IMO.
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Offline stint7


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

piktor wrote:
We have seen Guede, Knox and Sollecito produce nothing but self-serving lies throughout. They have no vested interest in telling the truth. I would not treat anything they say now or said in the past as reliable.

A big part of this "mystery" is the lies upon lies served by the defendants and groupies to create a fog of confusion and get them off the hook at all costs.

Believe the words of the three defendants at your own peril.


That is definitely good advice.

Whoever said it, I still find it accurate.

May I add to it and bring it up to date by quoting how some others in the case characterized Amanda:

........ la_) ?????,.............. wtf) ?????

Judges: :

1) ...a danger to the public without any inhibitions, disposed to follow any impulse even leading to violent conduct...
2) ...histrionic...an absolute liar...
3) ...restless, does not disdain 'multiple frequentations'.... (legalese for 'sleeps around like a tart')
4) ...had a 'negative personality....
5) ...crafty and cunning...a multi-faced personality unattached personality unattached to reality with an elevated fatal capacity to kill again...

Attorneys:

1) Pacelli:...she lies in a blatant and shameless manner...depraved, scheming, murderous...
2) Pacelli:...a promiscuous young woman who enjoyed telling lies....venal attitudes
3) Maresca:...an immoral uncouth degenerate.....

Others:

1) Patrick:...an exhibitionist and pathological liar...a vengeful college student...she does not even have a soul. She's empty; dead inside
2) Seattle Friends...she had fallen in with a bad crowd in Italy...
3) Polizia Ficarra:...does what she liked, when she liked without consideration for others
4) Madison: ...she was 'not ashamed' of having sex.
5) Robyn:...she literally seemed crazy...
6) Her Parents:...she sometimes lacked common sense...
7) Raffie's Father:...cursed day son met her...

Conclusion:
Amanda may have shared some of her 'traits' with Scarlett O'Hara, but none of the above with the Virgin Mary or most nuns I have known


Last edited by stint7 on Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline The 411


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:33 pm   Post subject: Toxic Translations and Transcriptions   

Catnip wrote:
Jools and The 411: you may need to have rinse out your frontal lobes with more than a couple of spin cycles with all of that literary translating and scene dialogue going on! I'm glad you've done it!


Caro Catnip:

Not to worry! I ran to the Conad early this morning to purchase some bleach to mop up the black matter forming in my grey matter.

No more impure thoughts coming from The la_) 411!!!

I'm much more concerned about JOOLS, who's had FAR MORE INTENSE, PROLONGED exposure to those dangerous AK toxins.

That Jools is a tough cookie, but, really, how much can one person take?!!!

You don't need a microbiologist to tell you that
the not-so-onorevole "Raucus Girl- Randyum" wan-) pathogen is extremely sickening and quite toxic!!!!!!!! blehhhhh tu-))

Jools would be better off drinking cone snail venom!!!! drin-) eee-)

I only hope that Drive-by-Doc is on call-- to render medical assistance for Jools, should our brave Toxin Translator succumb... ss-) e speriamo di no....
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Offline The 411


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

dgfred wrote:
Then again, Meredith may have actually said the same... which was highly accurate at the time IMO.


I dunno...this one particular line from Rudy's account has always sounded credible, to me. It may be one of a few kernels of truth embedded in a large pack of lies. Even liars tell the truth sometimes: even a broken watch is correct twice a day.

He's a liar, just like the other two liars, but even creative liars often "borrow from the truth" when they start to concoct a story.
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Offline stilicho


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Michael wrote:
From the JREF, a great post for a change:


Quadraginta wrote:

Mary H: It would mean nothing here. I find it hard to believe it would mean less in Italy, though, given the way the press is part and parcel of the legal system.



This is another topic which has been discussed in depth here. To deny the weight of press influence on public opinion and trial execution in the U.S. requires either a profound ignorance of American history or a willful denial. We have always had a "Crime of the Century" on a yearly or even monthly basis, at least as far back as the telegraph existed.

In recent years this trend has done nothing but accelerate. A lot. It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that our various media outlets now devote more of their combined budgets to in-detail pursuit of crimes and trials, before, during, and after, than is spent in Italy on all communications of any sort, including gossip over the telephone. Once respectable in-depth news reviews are becoming little more than "true crime" magazines in dismaying numbers.

Italy may try hard, but they can only be rank amateurs and wannabes when compared to the American appetite for salacious crime stories and the catering to it by American media.



Thanks for another good example of scepticism and clear thinking. I fear the point will go right over the groupies' head, though.

I don't know enough about the Anthony or Peterson cases but what I do know of them comes straight from the US media.

It's instructive that the biggest difference between those cases and this one is that the media coverage is so divergent in this case. All the evidence shows that the reason for this is not because the Italians are a primitive culture unable to report events properly. It's because the US media perceptions of the case are shaped by the Melloxes and a vigorous PR campaign.

That's the only difference and it's stark. As stark as the screen contrast on PMF if you don't adjust your preferences.

Just like the font and presentation of the PMF, the application of filters really are up to the individual. The groupies are in knots over the curious Italian legal requirements of the court to explain its decision. That doesn't happen in the US so ordinary people are entirely at the mercy of the media machine to tell them who was rightfully or wrongfully convicted. That's why those of us who've taken the time to read the Massei Report as well as the US media representation of the events would guess they're talking about two entirely different things.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 6:00 pm   Post subject: Administrator Note!   

Administrator Note:

Guests once again have read/download only access to all PMF subforums (with the exception of the private forums, staff forums, the range, the members only off-topic forum [World's End] and the arcade). This is a 'gently-gently' approach. If all goes well, I shall open up access for guests to the main discussion forum tomorrow.

Let's see how it goes and fingers crossed that nothing goes bang! :)

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline TomM


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 6:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Bedelia wrote: "She speaks more fluently in Italian than most native Italians? nw)

Umm…all it takes is this one bit of hyperbole to discredit the entire review. She can barely speak/write english properly."

"Barely"? I do take your point; I also think you put it very kindly--generously, in fact.
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 6:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

DEAR H9, You can't IMAGINE how thrilled I was to hear that you also learnt Mahjong for the first time here.( Fists clenched, teeth gritted, face green with jealousy :) ). I shall NOT BE giving you the layout, or tell you what I discovered!!! Every time I see I see that little trophy, I'm in a state of wonder. Saying that, you leave me in AWE!!!

Michael and DJLaw, H9 can whistle in the dark. ( evil laugh) :)

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Offline piktor


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 6:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

stint7 wrote:
piktor wrote:
We have seen Guede, Knox and Sollecito produce nothing but self-serving lies throughout. They have no vested interest in telling the truth. I would not treat anything they say now or said in the past as reliable.

A big part of this "mystery" is the lies upon lies served by the defendants and groupies to create a fog of confusion and get them off the hook at all costs.

Believe the words of the three defendants at your own peril.


That is definitely good advice.

Whoever said it, I still find it accurate.

May I add to it and bring it up to date by quoting how some others in the case characterized Amanda:

........ la_) ?????,.............. wtf) ?????

Judges: :

1) ...a danger to the public without any inhibitions, disposed to follow any impulse even leading to violent conduct...
2) ...histrionic...an absolute liar...
3) ...restless, does not disdain 'multiple frequentations'.... (legalese for 'sleeps around like a tart')
4) ...had a 'negative personality....
5) ...crafty and cunning...a multi-faced personality unattached personality unattached to reality with an elevated fatal capacity to kill again...

Attorneys:

1) Pacelli:...she lies in a blatant and shameless manner...depraved, scheming, murderous...
2) Pacelli:...a promiscuous young woman who enjoyed telling lies....venal attitudes
3) Maresca:...an immoral uncouth degenerate.....

Others:

1) Patrick:...an exhibitionist and pathological liar...a vengeful college student...she does not even have a soul. She's empty; dead inside
2) Seattle Friends...she had fallen in with a bad crowd in Italy...
3) Polizia Ficarra:...does what she liked, when she liked without consideration for others
4) Madison: ...she was 'not ashamed' of having sex.
5) Robyn:...she literally seemed crazy...
6) Her Parents:...she sometimes lacked common sense...
7) Raffie's Father:...cursed day son met her...

Conclusion:
Amanda may have shared some of her 'traits' with Scarlett O'Hara, but none of the above with the Virgin Mary or most nuns I have known


You either believe or you do not believe a person.

Although I find Guede is a liar in general, he describes Knox in a way familiar with credible sources as the ones noted by stint.

They corroborate Guede's words, even if Meredith never uttered them.

Knox used drugs and alcohol more liberally than what her parents would like to know or think their daughter was possibly using.

She is not the fourth grade little girl her mom wants the world to think was sent to jail for murder.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 6:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Stilicho wrote:
That's the only difference and it's stark. As stark as the screen contrast on PMF if you don't adjust your preferences.


Hey...

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline dgfred


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

They are still very worried about all of you 'over there' tou-)

Of course they put in the caveat that they 'hardly ever come to pmf to even look' wh-) .

For the next one that comes by to glance (not glance) ... b-))
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Interesting observation. Supernaut, read, Superzero, has mentioned twice on one page, that he has found PMF closed to visitors. AND, takes pains to mention both times that he rarely visits. BY CHANCE, he only popped over to read the Report. Riiiight.

Methinks thou dost protest to much.

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Offline lisareik


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

To 411:

In response to AK's using the hand tracing as her signature.

Hands are the instruments with which we act upon the world; our points of contact; and events in the brain are invariably represented in the hand.

AK: "It was a disgusting death...death that was shocking, yucky, disgusting", crossing her hands repeatedly in front of her chest.

There is a religious connotation or connection to the wash-away-your-sins metaphor. There is a physical sense of purity that is related to a moral sense of purity in the mind...."Wipe the slate clean" really wipes away past conerns. This is represented through the repeated act of washing the hands.

Thre are issues of morality in the symbolism of the hands, our actions in our world. Morality is a complex phenomenon and we rely on phsycial experience as represented by our hands to make sense of our actions.

Psychologists in one experiment asked people to describe a past unethical act. If people were then given a chance to wash their hands, they later expressed less guilt and shame.

In all this,let us remember Ak shows us the back of her hand; she is not showing the vulnerable inner part.
Other diagnostic conclusions may be broached to interpet this rather peculiar "signature" in a 23 year old woman; one that jumps out is regression to a much earlier stage of development; one in which the child or arrested/disturbed adult represents herself with a disconnected body part, the ever mighty hand. That same hadn that differenitates us from our nearest primate relatives and all that went before.
.

As well she might feel compelled to highlight this hand, while disconnecting it to the rest of her physical representation, this insturment of destruction in her case, even as she flashes it at her correspondent.
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Offline Maria


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:47 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Exactly, Lady Macbeth!
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

dgfred wrote:
They are still very worried about all of you 'over there' tou-)

Of course they put in the caveat that they 'hardly ever come to pmf to even look' wh-) .

For the next one that comes by to glance (not glance) ... b-))


Of course they are worried about us, 'they' always have been. To such an extent in fact that in our earlier days Chris Mellas himself (with some friends) arrived to try and get us onside, via various different means (talking at first, then snide, then threats).

PMF has always been a constant thorn in the side of the Knox PR campaign and (along with TJMK) has always been a voice for justice for Meredith. As such, we are feared and loathed. And I say this with no small amount of satisfaction. If we had no effect, there would be no point in us being here.

And I will repeat the promise I always made to the FOA...we are here and we will always be here, we're not going anywhere. We will see this out to the end.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
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Offline stint7


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Michael wrote:

PMF has always been a constant thorn in the side of the Knox PR campaign and (along with TJMK) has always been a voice for justice for Meredith. As such, we are feared and loathed. And I say this with no small amount of satisfaction. If we had no effect, there would be no point in us being here.

And I will repeat the promise I always made to the FOA...we are here and we will always be here, we're not going anywhere. We will see this out to the end.


cl-) dance-) mul-) tt-) cl-)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


May Meredith Rest In Peace, and may her dignified, grieving Family receive only the Condolences, Respect, and Solitude they are entitled to.
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Offline Earthling


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Quote:
Talking in this week's Grazia magazine, she [Knox's sister, Deanna] said: 'Amanda's greatest fear is that she'll spend the rest of her life in prison. She has always protested her innocence - Meredith was her friend. But she's terrified she'll be labelled a killer for the rest of her life.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/ar ... death.html

When I read this, I instantly heard and saw the scene between the good and bad sides of Gollum in The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers.

"Meredith was my friend!!!! -- gollum -- gollum..."

Remember the one? The bad side of Gollum:

Attachment:
BAD_Gollum.jpg

is arguing with the good side of Gollum (Smeagol):

Attachment:
GOOD Smeagol.jpg

For those who wish to revisit the scene, the YouTube is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLvIFRNbqOs

And here's the dialogue:

Gollum: (watching Frodo sleep with the ring clasped in his hands) We wants it! We needs it!! Must have the prrreeciousssss! They stole it from ussss. Sneaky little hobbitses. Wicked! Tricksy! False!

Smeagol: No! ... Not Master!

Gollum: Yes, precioussss... False! They will cheat you, hurt you, LIE!!!

Smeagol: Master's my friend!

Gollum: You don't have any friends! Nobody likes you.

Smeagol: (covering ears) I'm not listening! ...I'm not listening!!

Gollum: You're a liar and a thief!

Smeagol: No!

Gollum: (deeper voice) MURDERER...

Smeagol: (defeated) ....go away...

Gollum: "Go away"? (diabolically) ha ha ha ha ha....

Smeagol: I hate you... I hate you...

Gollum: Where would you be without me? --- gollum -- Where? I saved us... it was me!... we survived because of me!!!

Smeagol: (a bit stronger) Not anymore....

Gollum: (sharply) What did you say?

Smeagol: Master looks after us now. We don't need you!

Gollum: What?!

Smeagol: Leave now and never come back!

Gollum: No!!

Smeagol: (a bit louder) Leave now and never come back!!

Gollum: GRRRRR!!!!

Smeagol: (very loudly) LEAVE NOW AND NEVER COME BACK!!!!

(silence... a pause)

Smeagol: (happily) We told him to go away, and away he goes, preciousss! Gone, gone, gone! Smeagol is FREE!!

------

This scene is a great demonstration of internal struggle, something we see evidence of in Amanda all the time.

Thanks for the post on hands, lisareik.


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Offline Hammerite


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Many thanks to Michael, Clander, Pete and all who got this vital forum back on track. And of course to all valued members that post here with such a variety of insight, ingenuity, humour, rigor and sensitivity. Although I am a bit snowed under at the mo it is always a pleasure to catch up with the reading here; you just never know what may come up next.

Each of you honours the memory of dear Meredith in your own way. It is a community that I am proud to be associated with.

H
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Offline stilicho


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Earthling wrote:
Quote:
Talking in this week's Grazia magazine, she [Knox's sister, Deanna] said: 'Amanda's greatest fear is that she'll spend the rest of her life in prison. She has always protested her innocence - Meredith was her friend. But she's terrified she'll be labelled a killer for the rest of her life.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/ar ... death.html

When I read this, I instantly heard and saw the scene between the good and bad sides of Gollum in The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers.

"Meredith was my friend!!!! -- gollum -- gollum..."

....

Thanks for the post on hands, lisareik.


I'd echo my thanks to lisareik for the essay on hands. It reminded me of the fact that the forensics teams found none of Knox's prints (save one) in the cottage.

As for the way Knox (and, indeed, her whole family) observes friendship, it's instructive again to look at her own words. From her testimony, she describes the prison chaplain as her friend. Why? She elaborates on her definition:

Knox Testimony wrote:
We talk about my family, my thoughts, my studies. He gives me books to study from, and when we're together, there's a group that gets together to sing, to dance, to discuss theology.


Note that the first role of Amanda's friends is to take care of her needs. She expects a friend to be concerned about her family, thoughts, and activities. The ancillary role of a friend, in Knox's world, is to give her things (books in this case). Finally, a friend takes care of Amanda's entertainment. In prison, of course, this is limited to organised activities such as singing, dancing, and talking in a discussion group.

This is just as revealing as anything Knox says. How do others here define friendship? Why does Knox ignore the fact that the prison chaplain is being paid to be kind to her? What happens when a "friend" starts making demands?

I see exactly the same criteria extending to Girlanda. He exists only to publish her thoughts, provide her with comfort, supply her with books and a computer, and publish a memoir with the not-so-subtle title "I'm Coming With You".

And what about her Seattle circle? They exist to fly to Perugia to tell everyone what a terribly sweet girl Knox is. They are there to take her picture.

I think we've all encountered people with such narrow definitions of friendship but likely tire of the incessant demands for attention to their needs. It was certainly the misfortune of both Meredith and Patrick to have crossed this individual because they probably didn't see the scarcely concealed nasty streak coursing just beneath the angelic veneer.
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Offline The 411


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:21 pm   Post subject: (HOMICIDAL) HANDS   

lisareik wrote:
To 411:

In response to AK's using the hand tracing as her signature.

Hands are the instruments with which we act upon the world; our points of contact; and events in the brain are invariably represented in the hand.

AK: "It was a disgusting death...death that was shocking, yucky, disgusting", crossing her hands repeatedly in front of her chest.

There is a religious connotation or connection to the wash-away-your-sins metaphor. There is a physical sense of purity that is related to a moral sense of purity in the mind...."Wipe the slate clean" really wipes away past conerns. This is represented through the repeated act of washing the hands.

Thre are issues of morality in the symbolism of the hands, our actions in our world. Morality is a complex phenomenon and we rely on phsycial experience as represented by our hands to make sense of our actions.

Psychologists in one experiment asked people to describe a past unethical act. If people were then given a chance to wash their hands, they later expressed less guilt and shame.

In all this,let us remember Ak shows us the back of her hand; she is not showing the vulnerable inner part.
Other diagnostic conclusions may be broached to interpet this rather peculiar "signature" in a 23 year old woman; one that jumps out is regression to a much earlier stage of development; one in which the child or arrested/disturbed adult represents herself with a disconnected body part, the ever mighty hand. That same hadn that differenitates us from our nearest primate relatives and all that went before.
.

As well she might feel compelled to highlight this hand, while disconnecting it to the rest of her physical representation, this insturment of destruction in her case, even as she flashes it at her correspondent.


Lisa:
Fascinating analysis. Thanks for your interesting post. Let me give you, (dare I say)...."a hand" cl-)

I hope you'll post more frequently. :)

You know, we all end up looking at our hands for different reasons, throughout the day, for different reasons.

But, for a convicted killer with "LOTS OF TIME ON HER HANDS" ...one who applied her very hands to viciously torture and stab an innocent person to death, I'll bet AK has reflected a lot on her hands.

My first crass thought was that AK was giving Rocco a representation of her trademark "hand job." Really. :oops: I mean, given the nature of the relationship, was that much of stretch?

But I DO think there is non-sexual symbolism of the hand outline.

Anita's entire existence nowadays revolves around doing anything and everything to forget that SHE KILLED MEREDITH. To do that, she really needs to forget that MEREDITH KERCHER ever existed. But, those hands took Meredith's life! She killed her with those very hands.

With THOSE HANDS. HER HOMICIDAL HANDS. The knife is long gone, but she sees HER HOMICIDAL HANDS every day.

How best to forget her own involvement and gain her freedom?
She must convince everyone she's innocent.

How best to convince people of her innocence when the case/evidence isn't looking too promising?

By trying to recreate herself as a childish, naive, yet also a highly PRECOCIOUS WUNDERKIND.
And so she even tries to create a NEW childish naive image... for her HANDS!!!

The FOA love and do everything to encourage that FALSE SELF of the Brilliant Bambina.

The first response that everyone had (as well as Rocco G., for that matter) when they saw those AK hand outlines was: "Oh, my God -how CHILDISH!"

But, it's simply part of her campaign to recreate herself, to "infantilize" those HOMICIDAL HANDS. Those hands didn't wield the murder weapon, ladies and gentlemen of the jury and the public at large!! Oh, no! They're the hands that make little sweet drawings and hand outlines.

Thinking of Rocco and his fascination with the odd outdoorsy nature-loving AK...

I'm suddenly reminded of the lyrics (err... and when am I NOT reminded of lyrics??) to that '50's song entitled:
"Nature Boy"

I'll change the masculine lyrics to feminine to make it suitable for AK

"There was a girl...
A very strange enchanted girl.
They say she wandered very far, very far (A "Long Way From Home"--HOW MANY KMs. FROM SEATTLE IS IT, AGAIN?)
Over land and sea,
A little shy and sad of eye
But very wise was she. (OH, YEAH, MENSA MATERIAL, FOR SURE!!)

And then one day,
One magic day, she passed my way. (ACTUALLY HE PASSED HER WAY, TO BE PRECISE!)
And while we spoke of many things, (UH-HUH, oh yeah, EVEN ALIENS FROM SPACE)
Fools and kings, (EVEN THE KING OF ITALY, BERLUSCONI)
This she said to me,
"The greatest thing you'll ever learn
Is just to love and be loved in return."

~interlude~

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn
Is just to love and be loved in return." (IN OTHER WORDS...ALL YOU NEED IS LOVE!!!! ) e ee-)

(My sincere apologies to Nat King Cole for ruining one of his classic songs!!)
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

A really super post, Lisa. Thank you.

dgFred, I really like your posts.

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Offline piktor


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

The 411 wrote:
dgfred wrote:
Then again, Meredith may have actually said the same... which was highly accurate at the time IMO.


I dunno...this one particular line from Rudy's account has always sounded credible, to me. It may be one of a few kernels of truth embedded in a large pack of lies. Even liars tell the truth sometimes: even a broken watch is correct twice a day.

He's a liar, just like the other two liars, but even creative liars often "borrow from the truth" when they start to concoct a story.


That's the problem: what to believe. What is Guede making up.

The best advice is to refrain from using a defendant's words, while trying to con his way through jail by spouting credible anecdotes.

People under these desperate circumstances will say anything to ingratiate themselves to a skeptical audience. Guede will say anything to help his cause.

The Girlanda gambit is Knox's latest move in the charm offensive. Mr. Rocco is in line with other suckers to fall for Knox's bluer than blue eyes, the couldn't hurt a fly facade, the shameless lack of depth flaunted by a genuine writing klutz.


Last edited by piktor on Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:20 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Another bit of trans of Knoxy's creative writing from Girlanda's book. Continuing with yesterday's (as described by some groupie) "beautiful love story with the pianist". Enjoy!

I’ve lost my courage, didn’t even know I lost it, down in some part at the bottom of the stomach. I quickly look away and race back to the stairs by the entrance. I leave the building without knowing where to go. Then a part of me thinks that he will follow me, so I stopped in the middle of the pavement and lift the camera to my eyes. In front of me, across the street, there is a wall covered with colour graffiti. I don’t photograph it because it is already art, but I point to it with the camera and I wait.

I wait, but he does not hit me on the shoulder, doesn’t clear his throat, doesn’t breathe on my neck, doesn’t land me a punch in the back or wherever. I'm disappointed, like as if I made a mistake, a mistake so bad that I even want to delete all the pictures I took, throw them away. I'm angry with myself for having hoped without reason, and instinctively feel the need to photograph my self. I hold the camera the other way, facing me and I shoot. Then I turn it back to see the image on the screen. My face is pale and the skin under the eyes is a bit purple. He is standing a short distance from my back. I turn around. He is still there, he looks at me and raises one ray of sunshine-hand in a greeting sign. "Hello" he tells me for the second time.

"Hello" I respond. Suddenly I feel very clumsy. "Wait a moment." I raise my camera and captured his image near the door. On his head has a pair of big black headphones that seem earmuffs.

Red ski jacket and striped trousers –
A turban of tousled dark hair-
Finger rolling on finger –
Steps of sore feet -
Brown eyes looking for the sun –
Definitely a Californian guy –
Skimmed milk –
Tears never wasted, shed –
Wine of happiness -
Tastes of love -

The photographs make me feel too many things at the same time: joy, sadness, satisfaction, angry, confusion, admiration... I never feel one emotion alone and hardly understand what I'm feeling, unless I manage to connect it to an image in my head. Before I take pictures, while I'm taking them, I feel them, and that's how I understand that I must capture a certain image. Only once I shot them I then return for working on them, to print them, try to understand them, try to think about what could be their meaning. And it is at that point that I give them a name. It is like writing poetry.
br-))
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Offline The Bard


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:37 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Peeeeeps! Just back from a three day work trip. Holy Moley! So much to read! I ANNNOYINGLY haven't got time to read all that I have missed so have just dipped in here and there. Notes:

Stint: patacake cats. Too cute. Thank you!

SA and Michael: Like the annoyingly relativist liberal that I am, I think I can see both sides of the LJ argument. I don't think it is worth bringing anything here other than PURE bullshit that would totally misinform readers. I am sure Michael has a lot of pure BS to choose from and does so carefully.

Jools: Excellent translations of Amanda's ramblings. To me they sound like the words of someone who is resigned to their fate and is withdrawing into an inner world. She no longer cares what people think about her. She is going quietly insane. It is sad but perhaps inevitable. This is deep inner dialogue of no sense whatsoever. Just impressions, both private and meaningless. This is all she has. She's losing the plot, slowly and by degrees. Guilt is closing in. It's tragic, and I can barely watch. Whatever you feel about AK we are watching a young life disintegrating before our eyes. I take no pleasure in it whatsoever. I just feel it is what she has to do, and somewhere inside her she knows that. She wants to be purged. This is the beginning of her descent into nothingness. Trust me.

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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:07 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

I was wondering where you had disappeared to , Bard. We have been practicing how much pain and torture we can handle ; Roccos *book*, Pannetiere's pithy comments, and Amanda's inane ramblings.

Clander and Jools have contributed mightily, as always, and I have absolutely done my bit. Yes, I have. I have a trophy in Mahjong, much to H9's shock and awe.

We had a near catastrophy, when PMF went down for a few hours. Apparantly, Michael remained cool, calm and collected :). Jref regular nit wits, who * apparantly RARELY * visit, knew immediately. Strange that.

Oh, and Donnie came back to visit.

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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:22 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Thanks again so much Jools. My take on this last bit, is like a retelling of what happened. she looked away (couldn't take what she had done) Panic, not sure if Meredith is really dead.

Isn't hit ( Meredith couldn't fight back) doesn't clear his (her) throat, doesn't feel his (her) breath, no punch...Amanda is disappointed. Meredith didn't fight, and there was no release. No satisfaction.

Amanda wants to delete the *photos)* read...images. She turns the camera away, (from what she has done) and to herself, probably wondering if she looks different after what she has done. ( I remember looking in the mirror to see if I looked different, when I lost my virginity).

A turban of dark tousled hair ( Meredith's hair, dark, turban...Meredith's Indian heritage.

Brown eyes, looking to the sun. ( Meredith is already dead. You cannot look into the sun.

Steps of sore feet ( Yeah, that would be the sound of running that was heard.)

Tears never wasted, shed. ( Meredith will never again cry, whether in joy, or pain.)

This is my brief take, and my opinion, of course. And gut wrenching.

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Offline The Bard


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 2:39 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

capealadin wrote:
I was wondering where you had disappeared to , Bard. We have been practicing how much pain and torture we can handle ; Roccos *book*, Pannetiere's pithy comments, and Amanda's inane ramblings.

Clander and Jools have contributed mightily, as always, and I have absolutely done my bit. Yes, I have. I have a trophy in Mahjong, much to H9's shock and awe.

We had a near catastrophy, when PMF went down for a few hours. Apparantly, Michael remained cool, calm and collected :). Jref regular nit wits, who * apparantly RARELY * visit, knew immediately. Strange that.

Oh, and Donnie came back to visit.


I have missed you!!!!!!

hugz-)

bu-)


(Apologies for that to all who find female expressions of emotion,and animals, unsettling and like to pick up their skirts and run away in the face of it. Look away now. Look away now)

Yes cape, I have missed you all v.v. much! Also awaiting the return of the FionaBird from her holidays. Where is she????

Have been off visiting a printer and looking at book bindings. All rather fascinating. Enjoyed looking round the factory - it was like going through the Round Window on Playschool* and seeing how things are made!

Donnie? Where?

And as for the self-induced pain of HeyHey!den and the incoherent ramblings of LJ the tiger fiddler...well, you get what you ask for on that one!

* this not only ages me, but will only be understood by about three people. Apologies. Playschool = very early kids tv for under fives, with a daily visit to various places of work. The sweet factory was always my favourite. Anyone remember Katoo the foul tempered pet cockatoo? For God's sake, someone tell me I am not talking to myself...

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Offline stilicho


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 2:48 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Jools wrote:
Another bit of trans of Knoxy's creative writing from Girlanda's book. Continuing with yesterday's (as described by some groupie) "beautiful love story with the pianist". Enjoy!


Quick question. Do any of these "stories" go anywhere? Or is it all just Knox running around with a camera and feeling really important about herself?
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 3:04 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Maybe, Stilicho, it was just a way for Amanda to let Rocco know, that a camera would be a good gift :(

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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 3:12 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Jref has now turned into a spelling Bee. Some advice for new poster Bambi: Run, Bambi, Run.

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Offline TomM


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:01 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

piktor wrote:
The 411 wrote:
dgfred wrote:
Then again, Meredith may have actually said the same... which was highly accurate at the time IMO.


I dunno...this one particular line from Rudy's account has always sounded credible, to me. It may be one of a few kernels of truth embedded in a large pack of lies. Even liars tell the truth sometimes: even a broken watch is correct twice a day.

He's a liar, just like the other two liars, but even creative liars often "borrow from the truth" when they start to concoct a story.


That's the problem: what to believe. What is Guede making up.

The best advice is to refrain from using a defendant's words, while trying to con his way through jail by spouting credible anecdotes.

People under these desperate circumstances will say anything to ingratiate themselves to a skeptical audience. Guede will say anything to help his cause.

The Girlanda gambit is Knox's latest move in the charm offensive. Mr. Rocco is in line with other suckers to fall for Knox's bluer than blue eyes, the couldn't hurt a fly facade, the shameless lack of depth flaunted by a genuine writing klutz.

We are all deceptive in some way, even if some of those ways are basically benign deceptions motivated solely to spare other people's feelings. There are some people who lie so constantly and who believe that the truth is rarely their friend, that they will lie even when truth would serve them better. But even liars who regularly lie sometimes tell truth. The trick is knowing when. One circumstance, which is embodied in an exception to the hearsay rule, is where the statement is against the interests of person make a statement. The assumption is that since the content of the statement is damaging to the speaker, it wouldn't be said if it were not true.

Guede makes more statements against his interest than the other two. Anita's only statement against her interest, iirc, is her presence in the cottage covering her ears muffled screams during killing. Although this she does not claim as a real memory, but as the product of police coercion. Rudy admits to being present in the room while Meredith was dying, and claims some sense of responsibility for her death, although not in the form of having killed her, but from having failed to call for help. While his self-serving denials of participation in the murder are not believable, he has asserted, without later walking away from, or trying to blame on others, more connection with crime than either of the other two. It appears to me that all of Biff and Anita's lies were, at the time, calculated to improve their position in light of the information that they thought was known at the time.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 5:20 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

stilicho wrote:
Jools wrote:
Another bit of trans of Knoxy's creative writing from Girlanda's book. Continuing with yesterday's (as described by some groupie) "beautiful love story with the pianist". Enjoy!


Quick question. Do any of these "stories" go anywhere? Or is it all just Knox running around with a camera and feeling really important about herself?



Is this pianist fantasy related perhaps to a recent concert at Capanne? Just wondering.

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Offline donnie

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 5:46 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

The Bard wrote:
Donnie? Where?


Oh i just stopped by, tried to make a simple tribute to Meredith, I even attached a picture :) and if everything goes right, I'll stick around...hopefully.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 7:23 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

stilicho wrote:
Jools wrote:
Another bit of trans of Knoxy's creative writing from Girlanda's book. Continuing with yesterday's (as described by some groupie) "beautiful love story with the pianist". Enjoy!


Quick question. Do any of these "stories" go anywhere? Or is it all just Knox running around with a camera and feeling really important about herself?



I think they call it 'stream of consciousness'...

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THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 7:33 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Justice will be served in Kercher case
“The investigation was carried out very well”: lawyer
By Leonardo N. Molinelli


CORRIERE TANDEM

(Two pages)

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THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline H9


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 7:46 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Michael wrote:
Justice will be served in Kercher case
“The investigation was carried out very well”: lawyer
By Leonardo N. Molinelli


CORRIERE TANDEM

(Two pages)



Could this all be just a 10 minute thing again and postponed like the smaller cases or is it likely to take place and finish this year, the appeal, I mean?
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Offline donnie

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:26 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Michael wrote:
Justice will be served in Kercher case
“The investigation was carried out very well”: lawyer
By Leonardo N. Molinelli


CORRIERE TANDEM

(Two pages)


"...of 20-year-old American student Meredith Kercher."
They should get their act together, one can't make such mistakes in articles that are that good(the first few lines), especially when it's being called Kercher case and not, what it used to be called, Knox case, Amanda's story etc.

EDIT:
Three pages.
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Offline H9


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:40 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

http://www.pnwlocalnews.com/vashon/vib/ ... 92828.html

Hope remains as Amanda Knox nears her appeal

Oct 26 2010, 11:20 AM

By KAREN PRUETT

For The Beachcomber

Friends and supporters around the world wonder whether this trial will be as embroidered with fiction as the first one or if the appeals court will follow the evidence and release Amanda and her friend Raffaele Sollecito, who was also convicted in the murder.

Still to be discovered is why the Perugian court system used Amanda as a distraction for the tabloid press. She was dangled like a rabbit in front of a pack of hounds. Raffaele was collateral damage, Meredith was disrespected, and Rudy disappeared into the prison system.

The Amanda Knox Defense Fund is tentatively planning a benefit on Vashon

Karen Pruett, a longtime Islander and hairdresser, is a Knox family friend.



michelle is there in comments:

OK, what about my lack of objectivity? I completely thought they were 100% sicko whack guilty.
Now, I believe the exact opposite. There is a Michelli report, to be respectful. Is is possible that you are referring to the Massei report? Regardless, if you were to read this report, though there are tons of holes in it, I could see how someone could make some sort of sense of it (I guess). However, there is soooooo much in this report that is 1) false 2)contrived.
A 1/2 truth plus a 1/2 truth does not equal ONE truth, it equals two lies.
So, I find your tolerance is somewhat palpable as well it, it is still incorrect. There is toooo much out there, not to be more responsible at this point. You are responsible for what you believe. She WILL get out, and at that point, more crap than you can imagine will be revealed. Now, if Guede gets out, he will go right back to being a thief and now a murderer as well. I know this 100%. And the person who wrote this is smarter than you know. Though I don't know her personally, her credibility should make someone listen regardless of your thoughts about her lack of objectivity. And what about the rest of the credible independent (now) believer's that this is the most laughable case in history???


Last edited by H9 on Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:14 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:44 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

h9A7wa9i1K wrote:
Michael wrote:
Justice will be served in Kercher case
“The investigation was carried out very well”: lawyer
By Leonardo N. Molinelli


CORRIERE TANDEM

(Two pages)



Could this all be just a 10 minute thing again and postponed like the smaller cases or is it likely to take place and finish this year, the appeal, I mean?


Yes...in fact I'm expecting it to. The same thing happened in the trial. First day of the trial there was a hearing and then it was postponed for weeks.

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THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline stilicho


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:56 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

h9A7wa9i1K wrote:
http://www.pnwlocalnews.com/vashon/vib/opinion/105792828.html

Hope remains as Amanda Knox nears her appeal

Oct 26 2010, 11:20 AM

By KAREN PRUETT

For The Beachcomber

Friends and supporters around the world wonder whether this trial will be as embroidered with fiction as the first one or if the appeals court will follow the evidence and release Amanda and her friend Raffaele Sollecito, who was also convicted in the murder.

Still to be discovered is why the Perugian court system used Amanda as a distraction for the tabloid press. She was dangled like a rabbit in front of a pack of hounds. Raffaele was collateral damage, Meredith was disrespected, and Rudy disappeared into the prison system.

The Amanda Knox Defense Fund is tentatively planning a benefit on Vashon

Karen Pruett, a longtime Islander and hairdresser, is a Knox family friend.


Yeah, these are the groupies who still argue that they aren't conspiracy theorists:

Conspiracy Theorist wrote:
[T]here really is no hate, only frustration and anger toward the people, not the nation, responsible for this tragedy.


Which tragedy? Meredith's murder? A court found Knox and Sollecito unanimously guilty of murder and additional crimes including calunnia and mocking up the crimescene to make it look like a burglary.

So who are "the people...responsible"? The investigators? The witnesses? The prosecutors? The judges? Meredith's British friends? Filomena? Because, without them, Knox and Sollecito would not have been caught.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:57 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

h9A7wa9i1K wrote:
http://www.pnwlocalnews.com/vashon/vib/opinion/105792828.html

Hope remains as Amanda Knox nears her appeal

Oct 26 2010, 11:20 AM

By KAREN PRUETT

For The Beachcomber

Friends and supporters around the world wonder whether this trial will be as embroidered with fiction as the first one or if the appeals court will follow the evidence and release Amanda and her friend Raffaele Sollecito, who was also convicted in the murder.

Still to be discovered is why the Perugian court system used Amanda as a distraction for the tabloid press. She was dangled like a rabbit in front of a pack of hounds. Raffaele was collateral damage, Meredith was disrespected, and Rudy disappeared into the prison system.

The Amanda Knox Defense Fund is tentatively planning a benefit on Vashon

Karen Pruett, a longtime Islander and hairdresser, is a Knox family friend.



michelle is there in comments:

OK, what about my lack of objectivity? I completely thought they were 100% sicko whack guilty.
Now, I believe the exact opposite. There is a Michelli report, to be respectful. Is is possible that you are referring to the Massei report? Regardless, if you were to read this report, though there are tons of holes in it, I could see how someone could make some sort of sense of it (I guess). However, there is soooooo much in this report that is 1) false 2)contrived.
A 1/2 truth plus a 1/2 truth does not equal ONE truth, it equals two lies.
So, I find your tolerance is somewhat palpable as well it, it is still incorrect. There is toooo much out there, not to be more responsible at this point. You are responsible for what you believe. She WILL get out, and at that point, more crap than you can imagine will be revealed. Now, if Guede gets out, he will go right back to being a thief and now a murderer as well. I know this 100%. And the person who wrote this is smarter than you know. Though I don't know her personally, her credibility should make someone listen regardless of your thoughts about her lack of objectivity. And what about the rest of the credible independent (now) believer's that this is the most laughable case in history???


From your linked to opinion piece, the comment below form Michelle Moore:

Quote:
OK, what about my lack of objectivity? I completely thought they were 100% sicko whack guilty.
Now, I believe the exact opposite. There is a Michelli report, to be respectful. Is is possible that you are referring to the Massei report? Regardless, if you were to read this report, though there are tons of holes in it, I could see how someone could make some sort of sense of it (I guess). However, there is soooooo much in this report that is 1) false 2)contrived.
A 1/2 truth plus a 1/2 truth does not equal ONE truth, it equals two lies.
So, I find your tolerance is somewhat palpable as well it, it is still incorrect. There is toooo much out there, not to be more responsible at this point. You are responsible for what you believe. She WILL get out, and at that point, more crap than you can imagine will be revealed. Now, if Guede gets out, he will go right back to being a thief and now a murderer as well. I know this 100%. And the person who wrote this is smarter than you know. Though I don't know her personally, her credibility should make someone listen regardless of your thoughts about her lack of objectivity. And what about the rest of the credible independent (now) believer's that this is the most laughable case in history???

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Offline stilicho


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:07 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

h9A7wa9i1K wrote:
michelle is there in comments:

....

And the person who wrote this is smarter than you know. Though I don't know her personally, her credibility should make someone listen regardless of your thoughts about her lack of objectivity. And what about the rest of the credible independent (now) believer's that this is the most laughable case in history???


More conspiraloon whinging and fantasy.

9/11 "truthers" are fond of explaining to everyone just how smart they are. (Ehem, Michelle, Karen's c.v. is right up there at the end of the article. She's a hair stylist. Not exactly MIT or Harvard material.)

"Truthers" likewise imagine that there is a huge groundswell of latent public opinion out there just waiting for the opportune moment to swing into action. It's been three years now since Knox and Sollecito murdered Meredith. The "credible...believer's [sic]" can't even fill a small Seattle venue and a recent Ohio "benefit" went by unreported by anyone.

At least the writer of the article is honest about why Curt and Edda are still begging for cash. They're still unemployed and freeloading off impressionable locals to jet to Italy. Where is the accountability?
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:25 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

From the JREF:

Malkmus wrote:
Garofano criticized the LCN DNA evidence as well as the examination of the double DNA knife. Really, has there been anyone outside the prosecution and judges who hasn't described the forensic evidence in this case as questionable?


JREF 12925


Yes, the independent experts representing Meredith Kercher. It's funny how you people totally forget and ignore 'those' experts. In the fake little alternative universe you have created only the prosecution and defence exists...I suspect because that's the convenient fantasy.

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Offline MikeMCSG


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:26 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

The Bard wrote:
Jools: Excellent translations of Amanda's ramblings. To me they sound like the words of someone who is resigned to their fate and is withdrawing into an inner world. She no longer cares what people think about her. She is going quietly insane. It is sad but perhaps inevitable. This is deep inner dialogue of no sense whatsoever. Just impressions, both private and meaningless. This is all she has. She's losing the plot, slowly and by degrees. Guilt is closing in. It's tragic, and I can barely watch. Whatever you feel about AK we are watching a young life disintegrating before our eyes. I take no pleasure in it whatsoever. I just feel it is what she has to do, and somewhere inside her she knows that. She wants to be purged. This is the beginning of her descent into nothingness. Trust me.


I tend to agree with you and perhaps this is what Ghirga's remarks about her "loss of serenity" are really alluding to.

This raises a couple of interesting legal points

1. Could Judge Matteini find that she wasn't mentally fit to take part in the appeal if the defence didn't raise the issue (as Amanda's parents would be dead against them doing so ) ?

2. Would the appeal be postponed indefinitely if this happened ?
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Offline H9


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:33 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

You know.. I am sort of hoping that Ted Simon is working to extradite AK to Seattle. We don't want her in Europe anymore. She can do her time in a Washington prison. Where would she be sent do you think? I think she has been indulged too much in her fantasies in the Italian prison, it's time for her to go.




send her to Walla Walla

Volunteers are involved in religious programs, Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous meetings, assisting Veterans with military issues, assisting offender families with children mentoring programs, and special programs (i.e., dental hygienist, photographer, etc.) that are available to the offender population and their families.

Guest sport teams, choirs, musical groups, guest speakers/lecturers, and professional groups have held programs for the offender population. There are also groups that assist offenders in the process of re-integrating back into society. Some of the local motels have gift certificates available to assist families with their motel rate, if they need to spend a night at Walla Walla, either before or after a regularly scheduled visit.



http://www.doc.wa.gov/facilities/prison/wsp/default.asp

http://www.nsopw.gov/Core/Conditions.as ... eSupport=1


Last edited by H9 on Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:53 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:38 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

I couldn't agree more, H9. Amanda has it very cushy, notwithstanding that it is still a prison. Send her back to the US. Let her spend time here. Then they'll REALLY have something to complain about. I have yet to hear about anyone hear raving about the food, or having a bidet. I'm hoping the appeals will not be successful, and that Ted Simon is successful, in having Amanda serve her sentence here. And think of the money the supporters will save on airfare!

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Offline H9


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:27 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

capealadin wrote:
I have yet to hear about anyone hear raving about the food, or having a bidet.


I bet the bidet is a difficult one for Amanda. Every time she sees it she is reminded of washing off Meredith's blood.
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Offline H9


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:55 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

could be interesting...


If Amanda Knox’s parents think Amanda Knox is totally innocent and had nothing to do with Meredith Kercher’s murder then why don’t they publicly get Dr. Paul Ekman, the human lie detector who the Fox Series “Lie to Me” the Dr. Cal Lightman character is based on, to give his professional opinion publicly based on films of Amanda testifying, commenting and responding to questions on Meredith Kercher’s murder as well as interviewing her in person? I mean since Amanda Kercher’s parents seem to care so much about public opinion and Public Relations Campaigns, why not get a respected public and Scientific figure like Dr. Paul Ekman to give his opinion whether Amanda is lying or telling the truth based on his expertise of facial expression and body language? No matter what he says, it can’t convict Amanda of murder any more and if he says she told the truth about not having anything to do with the murder, then they have the best PR Campaign around to get her free. C’mon put up or shut up. It’s certainly better than a PR campaign insulting the Italian people and legal system and not coming to terms that when you are tried in Italian Court for Murder in Italy, you are not tried under the American Judicial System.


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Offline observer


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:56 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

stilicho wrote:
h9A7wa9i1K wrote:
michelle is there in comments:

....

And the person who wrote this is smarter than you know. Though I don't know her personally, her credibility should make someone listen regardless of your thoughts about her lack of objectivity. And what about the rest of the credible independent (now) believer's that this is the most laughable case in history???


More conspiraloon whinging and fantasy.

9/11 "truthers" are fond of explaining to everyone just how smart they are. (Ehem, Michelle, Karen's c.v. is right up there at the end of the article. She's a hair stylist. Not exactly MIT or Harvard material.)

"Truthers" likewise imagine that there is a huge groundswell of latent public opinion out there just waiting for the opportune moment to swing into action. It's been three years now since Knox and Sollecito murdered Meredith. The "credible...believer's [sic]" can't even fill a small Seattle venue and a recent Ohio "benefit" went by unreported by anyone.

At least the writer of the article is honest about why Curt and Edda are still begging for cash. They're still unemployed and freeloading off impressionable locals to jet to Italy. Where is the accountability?



I frequently see comparisons between "FOAKers" and "9/11 Truthers" on this board. I would just like to state that I do not see the comparison at all, and furthermore, the use of the term "conspiracy theorist" to brand all who merely disagree with one's point of view is IMO simply lazy labelling. After all, the idea that a man in a cave in Afghanistan and his barely-able-to-fly minions (some of whom are still alive and well, supposedly) were solely responsible for the havoc caused on 9/11 is as outlandish a conspiracy theory as any I have heard.

I realise that this is not the place to discuss the events of 9/11, so I won't mention it again, but I just thought I would respectfully register my disagreement with the assumption that "9/11 Truthers" are a bunch of delusional conspiracy theorists.

Enough from me.
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Offline stilicho


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:02 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

h9A7wa9i1K wrote:
could be interesting...

If Amanda Knox’s parents think Amanda Knox is totally innocent and had nothing to do with Meredith Kercher’s murder then why don’t they publicly get Dr. Paul Ekman, the human lie detector who the Fox Series “Lie to Me” the Dr. Cal Lightman character is based on, to give his professional opinion publicly based on films of Amanda testifying, commenting and responding to questions on Meredith Kercher’s murder as well as interviewing her in person?


Why not simply a polygraph? You often hear defendants begging to be allowed to have one done.

We know the answers already. We have documented evidence in Knox's own words. We have the alibi email, the "memorial", her stammering statement, and her testimony already. They each illustrate inconsistencies, evasion, lies, and self-confessed alterations to fit the evidence presented to her.

It's unnecessary to pull any more publicity stunts. Her words alone would be sufficient to keep her in prison for 26 years.

Black pearl pianos indeed.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:02 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

H9 wrote:
could be interesting...


If Amanda Knox’s parents think Amanda Knox is totally innocent and had nothing to do with Meredith Kercher’s murder then why don’t they publicly get Dr. Paul Ekman, the human lie detector who the Fox Series “Lie to Me” the Dr. Cal Lightman character is based on, to give his professional opinion publicly based on films of Amanda testifying, commenting and responding to questions on Meredith Kercher’s murder as well as interviewing her in person? I mean since Amanda Kercher’s parents seem to care so much about public opinion and Public Relations Campaigns, why not get a respected public and Scientific figure like Dr. Paul Ekman to give his opinion whether Amanda is lying or telling the truth based on his expertise of facial expression and body language? No matter what he says, it can’t convict Amanda of murder any more and if he says she told the truth about not having anything to do with the murder, then they have the best PR Campaign around to get her free. C’mon put up or shut up. It’s certainly better than a PR campaign insulting the Italian people and legal system and not coming to terms that when you are tried in Italian Court for Murder in Italy, you are not tried under the American Judicial System.


Or even a lie detector test ;)

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Offline H9


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:06 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Amanda Knox: whatever sympathy we feel, a girl is still dead

By Ceri Radford
Published: 6:46AM GMT 07 Dec 2009

When I saw the headline, I gasped. "Amanda Knox gets 26 years", and, alongside, a picture of a woman younger than her jail sentence, her scrubbed and pretty face obscured by bars.

without Knox, the case would have been stripped of the false glamour of the female killer. Dangerous women have always been ascribed a cartoonish, predatory sexual allure,

But whatever the uncertainties of the case, one thing is clear: no amount of drama or glamour can cover up the ugly truth of a girl's death. Men and women must be equal in guilt.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/pers ... -dead.html
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:08 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

observer wrote:
the use of the term "conspiracy theorist" to brand all who merely disagree with one's point of view is IMO simply lazy labelling.


I don't think anyone's branding them such merely because they disagree. They are so labelled because their manner of disagreement incorporates a grand conspiracy against Amanda Knox which includes the prosecution, the postal police, the polizia, the prosecution experts, Meredith's experts, Meredith's lawyers, the witnesses, Meredith's friends, Meredith's family, Filomena and Laura, the media and all the judges. This is a conspiracy on a grand scale...hence their being labelled as "conspiracy theorists".

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Offline bucketoftea


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:09 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

In case anyone hasn't seen Eyes for Lies' analyses of Amanda Knox, here's a link to one of her posts (there are several). Eyes for Lies is a "natural" ie detector ike Dr Paul Ekman.

http://blog.eyesforlies.com/2009/04/ama ... ement.html
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Offline stilicho


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:14 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

observer wrote:
stilicho wrote:
h9A7wa9i1K wrote:
michelle is there in comments:

....

And the person who wrote this is smarter than you know. Though I don't know her personally, her credibility should make someone listen regardless of your thoughts about her lack of objectivity. And what about the rest of the credible independent (now) believer's that this is the most laughable case in history???


More conspiraloon whinging and fantasy.

9/11 "truthers" are fond of explaining to everyone just how smart they are. (Ehem, Michelle, Karen's c.v. is right up there at the end of the article. She's a hair stylist. Not exactly MIT or Harvard material.)

"Truthers" likewise imagine that there is a huge groundswell of latent public opinion out there just waiting for the opportune moment to swing into action. It's been three years now since Knox and Sollecito murdered Meredith. The "credible...believer's [sic]" can't even fill a small Seattle venue and a recent Ohio "benefit" went by unreported by anyone.

At least the writer of the article is honest about why Curt and Edda are still begging for cash. They're still unemployed and freeloading off impressionable locals to jet to Italy. Where is the accountability?



I frequently see comparisons between "FOAKers" and "9/11 Truthers" on this board. I would just like to state that I do not see the comparison at all, and furthermore, the use of the term "conspiracy theorist" to brand all who merely disagree with one's point of view is IMO simply lazy labelling. After all, the idea that a man in a cave in Afghanistan and his barely-able-to-fly minions (some of whom are still alive and well, supposedly) were solely responsible for the havoc caused on 9/11 is as outlandish a conspiracy theory as any I have heard.

I realise that this is not the place to discuss the events of 9/11, so I won't mention it again, but I just thought I would respectfully register my disagreement with the assumption that "9/11 Truthers" are a bunch of delusional conspiracy theorists.

Enough from me.


I won't turn this into a "truther" thread but I'll set you straight on a few things right away:

Quote:
...a man in a cave in Afghanistan...


This is a "truther" mantra. He did not live in a cave. His organisation (and that of his chief lieutenants) was a sophisticated networks of skilled individuals. It included engineers, computer scientists, architects, and electronics experts.

Quote:
barely-able-to-fly minions


This is another "truther" mantra. All those selected to fly the planes were skilled at operating passenger jets. The one feature, in retrospect, that flagged each of them is that they were shown to be interested only in piloting the craft and employing the directional equipment rather than in taking off or landing.

Quote:
(some of whom are still alive and well, supposedly)


This is an error caused by people of similar names found working for various MidEast airlines. It's as though, in the US, someone named Joe Smith were accused of armed robbery. Those Joe Smiths not involved with the armed robbery might easily be mistaken for the suspect.

There are more parallels with the "truther" movement than you might think. Kevin Ryan, a water testing manager at Underwriter Laboratories, lost his job after using his corporate connections to call into question the very detailed NIST reports on the WTC collapses. He argued that UL had tested the WTC steel and it was somehow immune to fire, would not have weakened, and so on. He moreover charged that the chief engineers at the NIST were stooges of Dick Cheney or some other unnamed cabal instead of being the independent scientists they are.

Sound familiar? NoMoore did the same kind of thing and now makes a career out of lumping Pepperdine University in with this mysterious "they" who are conspiring to keep Knox in prison.
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Offline H9


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:22 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

bucketoftea wrote:
In case anyone hasn't seen Eyes for Lies' analyses of Amanda Knox, here's a link to one of her posts (there are several). Eyes for Lies is a "natural" ie detector ike Dr Paul Ekman.

http://blog.eyesforlies.com/2009/04/ama ... ement.html



Amanda calls it aggressive when someone calls her a liar.


Did she learn that from family?


Amanda:
So, what ended up happening was.... the fact that I had been pressured so much, and I was....(sigh), I was hit in the back of the head by one of the police officers...who said she was trying to make me...help me remember the truth.

Eyes for lies:
She was pressured so much that she was hit on the back of the head? Does that make sense? Why does she change "make me" which is a strong statement to "help me", which is much softer? I find this odd. If someone is hitting me on the back of the head, they aren't "helping me" do anything. They are making me forcefully and brutally react.
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:26 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

stilicho wrote:
h9A7wa9i1K wrote:
michelle is there in comments:

....

And the person who wrote this is smarter than you know. Though I don't know her personally, her credibility should make someone listen regardless of your thoughts about her lack of objectivity. And what about the rest of the credible independent (now) believer's that this is the most laughable case in history???


More conspiraloon whinging and fantasy.

9/11 "truthers" are fond of explaining to everyone just how smart they are. (Ehem, Michelle, Karen's c.v. is right up there at the end of the article. She's a hair stylist. Not exactly MIT or Harvard material.)

"Truthers" likewise imagine that there is a huge groundswell of latent public opinion out there just waiting for the opportune moment to swing into action. It's been three years now since Knox and Sollecito murdered Meredith. The "credible...believer's [sic]" can't even fill a small Seattle venue and a recent Ohio "benefit" went by unreported by anyone.

At least the writer of the article is honest about why Curt and Edda are still begging for cash. They're still unemployed and freeloading off impressionable locals to jet to Italy. Where is the accountability?

But... She'll go to any length for you!

http://karenforhair.mapmate.com/maps/341


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Offline bucketoftea


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:31 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

h9A7wa9i1K wrote:
bucketoftea wrote:
In case anyone hasn't seen Eyes for Lies' analyses of Amanda Knox, here's a link to one of her posts (there are several). Eyes for Lies is a "natural" ie detector ike Dr Paul Ekman.

http://blog.eyesforlies.com/2009/04/ama ... ement.html



Amanda calls it aggressive when someone calls her a liar.


Did she learn that from family?


Amanda:
So, what ended up happening was.... the fact that I had been pressured so much, and I was....(sigh), I was hit in the back of the head by one of the police officers...who said she was trying to make me...help me remember the truth.

Eyes for lies:
She was pressured so much that she was hit on the back of the head? Does that make sense? Why does she change "make me" which is a strong statement to "help me", which is much softer? I find this odd. If someone is hitting me on the back of the head, they aren't "helping me" do anything. They are making me forcefully and brutally react.



That "make.er,help" really stood out to me, too. I think that perhaps "make" was the version she told her family, but then backed off for the benefit of the court, to soften the accusation. OR she forgot which version she woud go forward with.
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Offline observer


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:14 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Michael, I was trying to make the point, not that FOAKers cannot be conspiracy theorists, but that likening them to 9/11 "Truthers"/"conspiracy theorists" is wrong, IMO.

Stilicho, I could, in turn, "set you straight" about a few things, but like I said, this is not the place to debate the happenings on 9/11. However, I did wish to signal that not all on this board are with the idea that 9/11 "Truthers" are conspiracy nuts. Having done that, I think we can move on.

I honestly don't wish to derail the discussion on the Kercher case, just felt uncomfortable at the idea of silently going along with this frequently made point, even though I disagree with it.

Thanks for letting me have my say.
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Offline DJLawless


Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 5:47 am

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

The Bard wrote:
snip....

Jools: Excellent translations of Amanda's ramblings. To me they sound like the words of someone who is resigned to their fate and is withdrawing into an inner world. She no longer cares what people think about her. She is going quietly insane. It is sad but perhaps inevitable. This is deep inner dialogue of no sense whatsoever. Just impressions, both private and meaningless. This is all she has. She's losing the plot, slowly and by degrees. Guilt is closing in. It's tragic, and I can barely watch. Whatever you feel about AK we are watching a young life disintegrating before our eyes. I take no pleasure in it whatsoever. I just feel it is what she has to do, and somewhere inside her she knows that. She wants to be purged. This is the beginning of her descent into nothingness. Trust me.


Hello Bard,
I have read and reread your post, and may I say that I think you are quite astute in your assessment of anita's state of mind. I am especially struck by your sentence: This is the beginning of her descent into nothingness That is the hell of her own making; 'nothingness' for a narcissist.

I don't know if guilt is setting in, or if she is even capable of feeling guilt as you or I, but I do believe she is overwhelmed at this point by remorse. Remorse would have the same devastating effect on anita as would guilt to a normal (non-sociopathic) person. That's more of anita's hell of her own making.

Also, Bard, may I say your posts are always a visual pleasure, like Joseph's amazing technicolor dreamcoat!! cl-)

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Offline stint7


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 2:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

h9A7wa9i1K wrote:
http://www.pnwlocalnews.com/vashon/vib/opinion/105792828.html
Hope remains as Amanda Knox nears her appeal
Oct 26 2010, 11:20 AM
By KAREN PRUETT
For The Beachcomber

michelle is there in comments:


Couple thoughts on 'Beachcomber'

1) If people of West Seattle need another local rag besides Shay and his West Seattle Herald to wrap fish with or train new puppies on, they now have Pruett and her Beachcomber.

2) Michelle Celestial Easterly Moore takes time from her everywhere, on everybody Facebook blatherings to comment in the Beachcomber.

2A Her comments about the "Amanda Forever and Ever Cheerleader Piece by Pruett" include this gem: " ... this being the most laughable case in history"
2A1) Her husband apparently has a soul mate (and source ?) for making a public fool of himself with asinine absurd overstatements
2B1) Did she teach the 25 year FBI expert this overstatement technique in addition to her well publicized:
... how to use CBS and its convicted felon producer to find out all you ever need to know about any murder Investigation... ?

3) harryrag just put up a lengthy comment that is a perfect 'truth squad follow-up' to the Moore misrepresentations and silly factless 'We Love Manders mantras' in most Beachcomber previous comments.

4) Interesting that the FOAKers use their favorite anonymous comment sections to even put up an obvious imposter called 'harryrags' (plural) who is just another infantile FOAKer copycat wanna bee
http://www.pnwlocalnews.com/vashon/vib/ ... 92828.html


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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 2:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Although to be fair, she isn't a reporter for the Beachcomber, she's just a hairdresser local they allowed to run loose in their opinion section. And frankly, it's probably the most exciting thing that's happened in a copy of Beachcomber for a decade and makes a bit of a change from grumbles about dog poop on the pavements.

_________________
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Offline dgfred


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 2:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

capealadin wrote:
A really super post, Lisa. Thank you.

dgFred, I really like your posts.


Thanks capealadin... and back at you most certainly. hugz-)
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Offline stint7


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 2:29 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Michael wrote:
Although to be fair, she isn't a reporter for the Beachcomber, she's just a hairdresser local they allowed to run loose in their opinion section. And frankly, it's probably the most exciting thing that's happened in a copy of Beachcomber for a decade and makes a bit of a change from grumbles about dog poop on the pavements.


Absolutely, Michael, I should have made that more clear.

Incidentally, my wife says from looking at her website she is a very reasonably priced hairdresser at that.
http://karenforhair.mapmate.com/maps/340

PS:
The real 'harryrag' must be 'counting to ten' about the crass imposter 'harryrags' in the Beachcomber comments


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Last edited by stint7 on Fri Oct 29, 2010 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 2:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

stint7 wrote:
Couple thoughts on 'Beachcomber'

1) If people of West Seattle need another local rag besides Shay and his West Seattle Herald to wrap fish with or train new puppies on, they now have Pruett and her Beachcomber.

2) Michelle Celestial Easterly Moore takes time from her everywhere, on everybody Facebook blatherings to comment in the Beachcomber.

2A Her comments about the "Amanda Forever and Ever Cheerleader Piece by Pruett" include this gem: " ... this being the most laughable case in history"
2A1) Her husband apparently has a soul mate (and source ?) for making a public fool of himself with asinine absurd overstatements
2B1) Did she teach the 25 year FBI expert this overstatement technique in addition to her well publicized:
... how to use CBS and its convicted felon producer to find all you need to know about any murder Investigation... ?


Every time Michelle Celestial Easterly Moore makes a comment, I feel embarrassed for her. There is no substance to anything she says. She has never provided a plausible innocent explanation for Knox's and Sollecito's lies or explained why and how they were framed.

She appears to think that she and her husband can influence the legal proceedings in Perugia. She doesn't seem to realise that this isn't American Idol and that the public don't get to vote on whether Knox and Sollecito stay in prison or not. Knox and Sollecito are going to lose their appeals and there is absolutely nothing she and her husband can do about it.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 3:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

The Machine wrote:
stint7 wrote:
Couple thoughts on 'Beachcomber'

1) If people of West Seattle need another local rag besides Shay and his West Seattle Herald to wrap fish with or train new puppies on, they now have Pruett and her Beachcomber.

2) Michelle Celestial Easterly Moore takes time from her everywhere, on everybody Facebook blatherings to comment in the Beachcomber.

2A Her comments about the "Amanda Forever and Ever Cheerleader Piece by Pruett" include this gem: " ... this being the most laughable case in history"
2A1) Her husband apparently has a soul mate (and source ?) for making a public fool of himself with asinine absurd overstatements
2B1) Did she teach the 25 year FBI expert this overstatement technique in addition to her well publicized:
... how to use CBS and its convicted felon producer to find all you need to know about any murder Investigation... ?


Every time Michelle Celestial Easterly Moore makes a comment, I feel embarrassed for her. There is no substance to anything she says. She has never provided a plausible innocent explanation for Knox's and Sollecito's lies or explained why and how they were framed.

She appears to think that she and her husband can influence the legal proceedings in Perugia. She doesn't seem to realise that this isn't American Idol and that the public don't get to vote on whether Knox and Sollecito stay in prison or not. Knox and Sollecito are going to lose their appeals and there is absolutely nothing she and her husband can do about it.


Perhaps Michelle believes that by bringing the level of "debate" down to elementary school level she has a better chance of persuading the masses. Hence her encouragement for the person whose vocation is "Karen for Hair."

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Offline Corrina


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 3:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

I was thinking after reading the latest from Rocco's "book" that the reason it was so disjointed and unsettling was due to some translation issues from Italian to English.

Then I remembered her stories from her myspace, her "alibi" email, her speaking at her hearing and I realized no, that's just the way this person communicates. Poorly.

Again, it makes me want to beat my head against a wall.

As for who made the "drugged up tart" reference, Rudy or Meredith, while I don't believe much out of Rudy, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Meredith did say it or something like it. There's a reason why the convicted murderer hung out with boys primarily. Women with self-respect and a strong sense of self can see right through the likes of her. There's no reason to believe Meredith didn't see her for exactly what she is.
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Offline stilicho


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Michael wrote:
From the JREF:

Malkmus wrote:
Garofano criticized the LCN DNA evidence as well as the examination of the double DNA knife. Really, has there been anyone outside the prosecution and judges who hasn't described the forensic evidence in this case as questionable?


JREF 12925


Yes, the independent experts representing Meredith Kercher. It's funny how you people totally forget and ignore 'those' experts. In the fake little alternative universe you have created only the prosecution and defence exists...I suspect because that's the convenient fantasy.


Furthermore, if any of the groupies wanted to take the time, there are professionals in academic positions at their local universities that would probably be happy to explain some of the technical issues to them. A legitimate question might be: In what cases would luminol evidence be excluded from a criminal trial? Or: What steps are taken in a criminal investigation to process luminol prints? This could be compared and contrasted to the procedures summarised in Massei.

That's how a true sceptic approaches doubtful statements, arguments, or evidence.
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Offline The 411


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:34 pm   Post subject: Cacoethes scribendi Merda   

Michael wrote:
stilicho wrote:
Jools wrote:
Another bit of trans of Knoxy's creative writing from Girlanda's book. Continuing with yesterday's (as described by some groupie) "beautiful love story with the pianist". Enjoy!


Quick question. Do any of these "stories" go anywhere? Or is it all just Knox running around with a camera and feeling really important about herself?



I think they call it 'stream of consciousness'...


No, Michael, that's being far, far too charitable. n-((
This is not AK about employing some literary technique-- it's a pathology, a disease.
AK's got a bad case of:

Cacoethes scribendi Merda = an insatiable urge to write. KAK.... fc-))

Evidently, even after THREE YEARS.... Anita STILL hasn't learned TO FLUSH her KAK down the tubes ...
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Offline The Bard


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

DJLawless wrote:
The Bard wrote:
snip....

Jools: Excellent translations of Amanda's ramblings. To me they sound like the words of someone who is resigned to their fate and is withdrawing into an inner world. She no longer cares what people think about her. She is going quietly insane. It is sad but perhaps inevitable. This is deep inner dialogue of no sense whatsoever. Just impressions, both private and meaningless. This is all she has. She's losing the plot, slowly and by degrees. Guilt is closing in. It's tragic, and I can barely watch. Whatever you feel about AK we are watching a young life disintegrating before our eyes. I take no pleasure in it whatsoever. I just feel it is what she has to do, and somewhere inside her she knows that. She wants to be purged. This is the beginning of her descent into nothingness. Trust me.


Hello Bard,
I have read and reread your post, and may I say that I think you are quite astute in your assessment of anita's state of mind. I am especially struck by your sentence: This is the beginning of her descent into nothingness That is the hell of her own making; 'nothingness' for a narcissist.

I don't know if guilt is setting in, or if she is even capable of feeling guilt as you or I, but I do believe she is overwhelmed at this point by remorse. Remorse would have the same devastating effect on anita as would guilt to a normal (non-sociopathic) person. That's more of anita's hell of her own making.

Also, Bard, may I say your posts are always a visual pleasure, like Joseph's amazing technicolor dreamcoat!! cl-)


What a very lovely thing to say DJ! Thank you!!

I was re-reading that post today, funnily enough, and am now unsure about Amanda's frame of mind. It struck me that she could quite easily be using this as another manipulative ploy to gain sympathy. The writings serve to show a) she has writing talent whatsoever b) her thoughts are confused at best c) her idea about what others would consider appropriate are as way off as ever. How would it serve her to submit this strangled prose to the world?

Conclusion:

a) her pride in her potential as a writer is something central to her. She would not sacrifice this bit of self-belief on the pyre of public opinion. It's too important. She clings to it. No, the sad truth is she has no IDEA how bad her writing is, bless her. I don't know if it is lost in translation, but the tenses are all over the place. Nothing agrees with anything. There is no apprehension of the music of language in her writing. She seems to equate deliberate obfuscation and circumlocution with erudition. But there is nothing worth saying actually underpinning her writing, so it is simply a meaningless, rather painful read.

b) Why should anyone have the faintest interest in her infantile ramblings anyway? The 'appropriateness' issue is just singing out to me again here, on several levels. Why the hell does she think it is either appropriate or interesting to publish this drivel? If she had a few short paragraphs about Italy and her love for the country I can see how it would aid the aims of the 'Foundation'. As it stands it is just horribly embarrassing. It's as if she's standing there naked again, like when she was messing about in court. She has no inkling of what a total fool she is making of herself. My instinct is to hand her a coat so she can cover her humiliation, but her minders/parents/exploiters/white knights are totally oblivious to the reactions, feeling and critical judgment of others when it comes to the little murderess. They are quite happy for her to stand naked before the world, like a village idiot who knows no better.

Why are they not covering her up with a metaphorical cape? Where is the chivalry, the protectiveness, the sense of what is and what is not appropriate in the eyes of the majority of decent people? It is non-existent. They are just standing back and gazing upon the beloved, admiringly, and assuming we are all doing the same. Whereas the truth is most people turn away, sickened. Where is the adult care for this vulnerable, unhinged young woman? What the hell sort of parents are they? I find their behaviour more and more deranged as this progresses.

c) finally, the 'unhinged' and 'vulnerable' Amanda. Yes indeedy. She is both (vulnerable does not imply sympathy here, just an observation). The more unhinged and vulnerable Amanda appears, the greater the pitch of the howl from her supporters. The next line of attack will be that she is not mentally fit to remain in Italy, and that she must be repatriated or given some lee-way due to her fragile state of mind. So appearing unhinged in her writing could in fact be a very useful thing indeed for our Mandy. Now I read it again, she does certainly seem to be a worse writer than before, since she now has the delusion via Girlander that she is worth being published. In exchange for those endless embraces he's giving her what she has always wanted. Her writing in print...

Where does the circus end, I wonder? When do the invisible clothes fall to the floor? Who is going to point out her nakedness first do you think? Will it be after this appeal? The next? What does it take before people begin to see clearly? The little Empress doesn't have much time left. And she knows it.

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Offline smacker


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Corrina,

I'd suggest that Meredith used the word 'tart' to describe our not so loveable murderess. Very much an English expression.
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Offline bucketoftea


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Corrina wrote:
I was thinking after reading the latest from Rocco's "book" that the reason it was so disjointed and unsettling was due to some translation issues from Italian to English.

Then I remembered her stories from her myspace, her "alibi" email, her speaking at her hearing and I realized no, that's just the way this person communicates. Poorly.

Again, it makes me want to beat my head against a wall.

As for who made the "drugged up tart" reference, Rudy or Meredith, while I don't believe much out of Rudy, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Meredith did say it or something like it. There's a reason why the convicted murderer hung out with boys primarily. Women with self-respect and a strong sense of self can see right through the likes of her. There's no reason to believe Meredith didn't see her for exactly what she is.


You put it so well, Corrina. I agree absolutely. I have met many, myself, and I'd wager the other women here know exactly what we're taking about.
:roll:
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Offline bucketoftea


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

I agree with Smacker, unless it's some sort of translation tweak.
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Offline H9


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

bucketoftea wrote:
Corrina wrote:
I was thinking after reading the latest from Rocco's "book" that the reason it was so disjointed and unsettling was due to some translation issues from Italian to English.

Then I remembered her stories from her myspace, her "alibi" email, her speaking at her hearing and I realized no, that's just the way this person communicates. Poorly.

Again, it makes me want to beat my head against a wall.

As for who made the "drugged up tart" reference, Rudy or Meredith, while I don't believe much out of Rudy, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Meredith did say it or something like it. There's a reason why the convicted murderer hung out with boys primarily. Women with self-respect and a strong sense of self can see right through the likes of her. There's no reason to believe Meredith didn't see her for exactly what she is.


You put it so well, Corrina. I agree absolutely. I have met many, myself, and I'd wager the other women here know exactly what we're taking about.
:roll:



Yup, I have come across my fair share as well. I think men have a bit of trouble catching on to what they have signed up for, though.
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Offline dgfred


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 5:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

You got that right h9! I've been married for 20 years and I'm still catching on :) .
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Offline H9


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 5:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

smacker wrote:

I'd suggest that Meredith used the word 'tart' to describe our not so loveable murderess. Very much an English expression.




Ever time i see your name here reminds me of my reaction when reading AK's poetry or listening to her testimony..

I just want to smack her
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Offline bucketoftea


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 5:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

ROFL. I feel the same, H9. What a coincidence!
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Offline The 411


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 5:24 pm   Post subject: Remorse?   

DJLawless wrote:


I don't know if guilt is setting in, or if she is even capable of feeling guilt as you or I, but I do believe she is overwhelmed at this point by remorse. Remorse would have the same devastating effect on anita as would guilt to a normal (non-sociopathic) person. That's more of anita's hell of her own making.

cl-)


She's probably discouraged, disheartened, and just feeling more emotionally hollow than she ever has felt.

But feeling GUILT??? Amanda? Nahhhh, I don't think so.

AK's amoral self-interest has been flourishing behind bars, not diminishing.

If she's feeling any "remorse", I'd have to ask... remorse for WHAT, exactly?

Perhaps remorse for her behavior in court?-- Regretting perhaps that the loony little angel act she presented didn't win over the judges and convince them of her innocence?
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Offline The 411


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 5:31 pm   Post subject: And the G.O.D. Award goes to....   

h9A7wa9i1K wrote:
smacker wrote:

I'd suggest that Meredith used the word 'tart' to describe our not so loveable murderess. Very much an English expression.




Ever time i see your name here reminds me of my reaction when reading AK's poetry or listening to her testimony..

I just want to smack her


h9,
:lol: You deserve today's G.O. D.* Award!
(*i.e, for all the atheists out there...That stands for GIF OF the Day award!!) tt-)
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Offline smacker


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 5:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

h9,

fame at last.......I've seen the penguin getting belted before, but still hilarious. My 7 year old son laughs his drawers off when he sees that bit of video...............
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Offline SomeAlibi


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 5:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

smacker wrote:
Corrina,

I'd suggest that Meredith used the word 'tart' to describe our not so loveable murderess. Very much an English expression.



It is indeed. But wouldn't Meredith have been talking Italian to Rudy rather than English and therefore probably used an Italian idiom?

Beautiful sunset a while back. Sunset before darkness of Monday. Time for some fresh air.

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What it is is spin lent credence because it's from the mouth of a lawyer. We've seen how much gravitas they can carry merely by saying something is or is not so when often they are speaking as much rubbish as anyone else.
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Offline bucketoftea


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 6:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

I may have misunderstood, but I thought Meredith is supposed to have called AK that directly; there was a confrontation?
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Offline lauowolf


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 6:14 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Jools wrote:
Another bit of trans of Knoxy's creative writing from Girlanda's book. Continuing with yesterday's (as described by some groupie) "beautiful love story with the pianist". Enjoy!

I’ve lost my courage, didn’t even know I lost it, down in some part at the bottom of the stomach. I quickly look away and race back to the stairs by the entrance. I leave the building without knowing where to go. Then a part of me thinks that he will follow me, so I stopped in the middle of the pavement and lift the camera to my eyes. In front of me, across the street, there is a wall covered with colour graffiti. I don’t photograph it because it is already art, but I point to it with the camera and I wait.

I wait, but he does not hit me on the shoulder, doesn’t clear his throat, doesn’t breathe on my neck, doesn’t land me a punch in the back or wherever. I'm disappointed, like as if I made a mistake, a mistake so bad that I even want to delete all the pictures I took, throw them away. I'm angry with myself for having hoped without reason, and instinctively feel the need to photograph my self. I hold the camera the other way, facing me and I shoot. Then I turn it back to see the image on the screen. My face is pale and the skin under the eyes is a bit purple. He is standing a short distance from my back. I turn around. He is still there, he looks at me and raises one ray of sunshine-hand in a greeting sign. "Hello" he tells me for the second time.

"Hello" I respond. Suddenly I feel very clumsy. "Wait a moment." I raise my camera and captured his image near the door. On his head has a pair of big black headphones that seem earmuffs.

Red ski jacket and striped trousers –
A turban of tousled dark hair-
Finger rolling on finger –
Steps of sore feet -
Brown eyes looking for the sun –
Definitely a Californian guy –
Skimmed milk –
Tears never wasted, shed –
Wine of happiness -
Tastes of love -

The photographs make me feel too many things at the same time: joy, sadness, satisfaction, angry, confusion, admiration... I never feel one emotion alone and hardly understand what I'm feeling, unless I manage to connect it to an image in my head. Before I take pictures, while I'm taking them, I feel them, and that's how I understand that I must capture a certain image. Only once I shot them I then return for working on them, to print them, try to understand them, try to think about what could be their meaning. And it is at that point that I give them a name. It is like writing poetry.
br-))


I had a few reactions to this writing.

First, people have pointed to the disjointed nature of this and wondered whether it is a result of having been translated from Italian, or initially composed in Italian by a non-native.
I'd just point out that the intervention of a translator, presumably fluent in at least one language, has probably vastly improved the text.
The lack of egregious errors here - in contrast to any other document we've seen coming from this murderous "honor" student - is probably due to the text having been filtered through a literate person, translator, editor, whoever; the incoherence, of course, is Mandy's own.

Second, and perhaps obvious, I'd just point to escapist nature of the piece.
Someone wondered whether the figure of the pianist was related to the presence in the prison of visiting music program members.
The actions here: the opportunity to wander freely, to interact with random unknown men, to flirt with them, to initiate sexual tension, in fact the whole apparatus of initiating a relationship, all these are things she clearly enjoyed.
All of them are the things that would make up much of her life in these years, if she had not thrown away all her possibilities through her own actions, her own choices, her own submission to her inner demons.

I'm not sympathizing with her in any way, since this free young adulthood that she has lost is part of what she took from Meredith, whose future possibilities seem more promising than this inchoate randiness.
It simply reads as if she is coming to realize her personal cost.
No matter how comfortable the conditions are for her - and certainly they are much better than she would be facing in the US, and no matter whether she can save face with her parents and family and shelter in a much proclaimed innocence, all her lies, and all her manipulations are not sufficient to change anything.
It is a completely self-centered realization, of course, but it is a first step.

And the third thing that strikes me:
"The photographs make me feel too many things at the same time: joy, sadness, satisfaction, angry, confusion, admiration... I never feel one emotion alone and hardly understand what I'm feeling, unless I manage to connect it to an image in my head."
"I hardly understand what I am feeling."
This may be one of the only truthful statements from Mandy that I have ever encountered.
Mandy's writing is from being "deep," so far in fact that this statement rings entirely true - she has no inner reflectiveness at all, just impulses, emotions, and needs.
A dangerous person.
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Offline The 411


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 6:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

SomeAlibi wrote:
smacker wrote:
Corrina,

I'd suggest that Meredith used the word 'tart' to describe our not so loveable murderess. Very much an English expression.



It is indeed. But wouldn't Meredith have been talking Italian to Rudy rather than English and therefore probably used an Italian idiom?



Yes, but, in that particular moment, Meredith could have been spontaneously just venting her anger, reacting in her native language, not necessarily having a dialogue WITH Rudy.

OOOOooops! is) Strike my comment......Rudy, in his diary wrote:
that she said: "QUELLA TROIA DI DROGATA" and the tart phrase is a TRANSLATION into English, AFAIK.
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Offline stilicho


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 6:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

bucketoftea wrote:
I may have misunderstood, but I thought Meredith is supposed to have called AK that directly; there was a confrontation?


There is no corroborated evidence that there was any kind of confrontation or incitement outside Meredith's room.

During our speculation phase, some posters have suggested an increasingly vocal confrontation around the common area in the cottage, with Meredith retreating to her room. However, this is entirely speculative and nowhere entered into evidence at the trial.

The Massei Report explains the escalation of violence quite differently and provides Guede a central role unlike the one that he gave in his own defence.
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Offline stilicho


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 7:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

lauowolf wrote:
Jools wrote:
He is still there, he looks at me and raises one ray of sunshine-hand in a greeting sign. "Hello" he tells me for the second time.

br-))


I had a few reactions to this writing.

This may be one of the only truthful statements from Mandy that I have ever encountered.
Mandy's writing is from being "deep," so far in fact that this statement rings entirely true - she has no inner reflectiveness at all, just impulses, emotions, and needs.


Not sure I think her writing indicates she's dangerous but certainly agree with your penultimate sentence.

I also thought the logical rewriting of this:

Imprisoned Murderer wrote:
He is still there, he looks at me and raises one ray of sunshine-hand in a greeting sign. "Hello" he tells me for the second time.


should be this:

Imprisoned Murderer wrote:
He is still there, he looks at me and raises one ray of sunshine-hand in a greeting sign. "We come in peace" he tells me for the second time.


Just to give it a bit more of that Mars Attacks! feeling.
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Offline dgfred


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 7:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Malkmus is also on the In Session thread and had some pretty good answers for question I had asked. I could use some help if Michael or Emerald have some time to visit there.

A few questions because of that thread to those that know much more than I do:

Is is true that Massei said the luminal prints were NOT in blood?
Were there any smear patterns around those hallway prints? Like they had been wiped clean?
Were any of the luminal prints supposed to be RS's?
It is claimed that AK said in court that she didn't claim Meredith always locked her door and it was a miscommunication that caused this discrepancy.
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Offline stint7


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 7:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

The 411 wrote:
Yes, but, in that particular moment, Meredith could have been spontaneously just venting her anger, reacting in her native language, not necessarily having a dialogue WITH Rudy.

OOOOooops! is) Strike my comment......Rudy, in his diary wrote:
that she said: "QUELLA TROIA DI DROGATA" and the tart phrase is a TRANSLATION into English, AFAIK.


At the risk of becoming too engrossed in exact translations verbiage, and also at the risk of believing too much of anything of what Rudy says.....

Here is the excerpt from page 18 of his Prison Diary from our own "In Their Own Words" Section describing confrontation and Meredith's angry description of Amanda:

Sometime later, here's Meredith, she was smiling, and asked me how long I’d been waiting, and I told her for about one minute. She smiled, then took the keys out of her purse, opened the door, and we entered. There wasn't anyone in the house because it was dark everywhere, in the kitchen, in the living room, then she yelled "Anybody here," to let people know she was back, but there was no answer from the other rooms. Even though I’d bought some drinks with the kebab, I needed to drink some more because it was very spicy, and I asked her if I could drink something. She told me to help myself as if I was at my place. I opened the fridge and drank some apricot juice and water too. Since she wasn't paying attention, I drank out of the bottle because I didn't know where the glasses were, and then I sat down.

I don't know what problems she had with Amanda, but I heard her complaining, so I got up and went to her room. I saw she was furious and she said- her exact words- "That whore of a doper." Heavy words for two people who were friends.


Rudy's Prison Diary.doc
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=38


Last edited by stint7 on Fri Oct 29, 2010 7:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Offline DJLawless


Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 5:47 am

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 7:29 pm   Post subject: Re: Remorse?   

The 411 wrote:
DJLawless wrote:


I don't know if guilt is setting in, or if she is even capable of feeling guilt as you or I, but I do believe she is overwhelmed at this point by remorse. Remorse would have the same devastating effect on anita as would guilt to a normal (non-sociopathic) person. That's more of anita's hell of her own making.

cl-)


She's probably discouraged, disheartened, and just feeling more emotionally hollow than she ever has felt.

But feeling GUILT??? Amanda? Nahhhh, I don't think so.

AK's amoral self-interest has been flourishing behind bars, not diminishing.

If she's feeling any "remorse", I'd have to ask... remorse for WHAT, exactly?

Perhaps remorse for her behavior in court?-- Regretting perhaps that the loony little angel act she presented didn't win over the judges and convince them of her innocence?


Oh 411, I did not express myself properly. Remorse for getting caught (by her own stupidity). Remorse for being incarcerated; remorse that she can be the center of attention in a much more limited way, even though she will make the most of it, with her prison-mates and her visitors and her (dwindling) fan club. Anita's stage is gotten a lot smaller, being in a cell most of the day.

I am sorry 411, for not making myself perfectly clear. What I mean to say is that I believe anita has remorse for the situation that she has stupidly gotten herself into. Not remorse for what she did; only that she must pay for what she did. Anita can only feel remorse for herself.

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Offline stilicho


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

dgfred wrote:
It is claimed that AK said in court that she didn't claim Meredith always locked her door and it was a miscommunication that caused this discrepancy.


One thing you'll notice about Knox is that she uses the word "always" in an indeterminate manner, just as she does with many English words. In her court testimony, though, she is clear that Meredith locked her door to take a shower or when she was out of the country. She explains that she knew this by inspecting the door on occasion:

Knox Testimony wrote:
[If] I called Meredith and she had just gotten out of the shower, and wanted to change her clothes, and I would get near the door, I would notice it was locked.


Yet Massei indicates that the problem was not that Knox thought the door was locked when she "discovered" the mess inside but that she directly contradicted Filomena when the Postal Police were investigating and before the decision was made to break down the door.

The question is whether the other Italian-speaking people there understood Knox at the time they were arguing. Massei appears to accept the word of the Italian-speakers that she employed the term "always":

Massei Report wrote:
This last circumstance, downplayed by Amanda, who said that even when she went to the bathroom for a shower Meredith always locked the door to her room (see declarations of Marco Zaroli, page 180, hearing of February 6, 2009 and declarations of Luca Altieri, page 218, hearing of February 6, 2009), had alarmed Ms. Romanelli more. She said she was aware of only once, when she had returned to England and had been away for a few days, that Meredith had locked the door of her room. (This circumstance was confirmed by Laura Mezzetti, page 6, hearing of February 14, 2009). [p 31]


The question isn't so much whether the word "always" was important (since Knox used it frequently even when it was inappropriate). Massei notes instead that the contrary position was not only "not always" but literally "only once". That's a far cry from "always" or even "often" or "sometimes".

That's the part of Knox's story that was disbelieved not only by the court but also by Filomena and eventually led to the discovery of Meredith's body. This can't be underestimated in the effect it had on the investigators and, ultimately, the court.
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Offline stint7


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:14 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Ever wonder how Curt covers all those expenses without having worked for a few years....

http://mysite.verizon.net/vze1063v4/Due ... oxDues.htm


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Offline Corrina


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:15 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

How could she notice the door was locked if she didn't try the handle? Or is it obvious on the doors of the cottage when one is locked simply by looking at it? If not, why did she want to enter Meredith's room while Meredith wasn't in it?
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Offline stilicho


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

dgfred wrote:
Were there any smear patterns around those hallway prints? Like they had been wiped clean?


Yummi is yards ahead of me on this one but there's a problem in the "wiped clean" meme used by the groupies. The prints found in the hallway were probably diluted by water. The luminol application does not find blood as such but reacts instead with the elements contained in blood (among other substances). This means that someone could conceivably "wipe clean" a visible footprint yet leave its outline without knowing they did. It's also conceivable that the wiped outline would not be considerably distinct from the original blood pattern because the act of wiping does not necessarily entail moving the elements or compounds from the spot they'd originally been deposited.

The very reason luminol is used is to reveal possible tracks leading to or from a crimescene. That's what they did in this case.

There's a whole appendix to Massei beginning on p 380 dealing precisely with the luminol prints.

My advice is to reference Massei and ask Yummi for a summary (or do a search here for work he's already done). The luminol "controversy" is extremely weak and poorly conceived. It really doesn't lead anywhere constructive. It would be better to ask Malkmus to provide evidence that the luminol procedures were violated by the forensics teams. It's really his burden of proof now anyhow.
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Offline piktor


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

stint7 wrote:
The 411 wrote:
Yes, but, in that particular moment, Meredith could have been spontaneously just venting her anger, reacting in her native language, not necessarily having a dialogue WITH Rudy.

OOOOooops! is) Strike my comment......Rudy, in his diary wrote:
that she said: "QUELLA TROIA DI DROGATA" and the tart phrase is a TRANSLATION into English, AFAIK.


At the risk of becoming too engrossed in exact translations verbiage, and also at the risk of believing too much of anything of what Rudy says.....

Here is the excerpt from page 18 of his Prison Diary from our own "In Their Own Words" Section describing confrontation and Meredith's angry description of Amanda:

Sometime later, here's Meredith, she was smiling, and asked me how long I’d been waiting, and I told her for about one minute. She smiled, then took the keys out of her purse, opened the door, and we entered. There wasn't anyone in the house because it was dark everywhere, in the kitchen, in the living room, then she yelled "Anybody here," to let people know she was back, but there was no answer from the other rooms. Even though I’d bought some drinks with the kebab, I needed to drink some more because it was very spicy, and I asked her if I could drink something. She told me to help myself as if I was at my place. I opened the fridge and drank some apricot juice and water too. Since she wasn't paying attention, I drank out of the bottle because I didn't know where the glasses were, and then I sat down.

I don't know what problems she had with Amanda, but I heard her complaining, so I got up and went to her room. I saw she was furious and she said- her exact words- "That whore of a doper." Heavy words for two people who were friends.


Rudy's Prison Diary.doc
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=38


On Guede's "German Diary", PDF page 22 he writes:

"Why are they saying she has been raped?
Meredith and I, that night, only talked and that's all.
What the f**k happened? Speak the truth. What are
you hiding? If it wasn't Raffaele, who was there on that
night? One of your many druggie lovers you were
bringing home? Was he someone from the "Merlin,"
"Domus," was it all of you downstairs?"

He also told his friend while riding the train back to Italy that he had had "oral" sex with the victim. So, which one was it, "only talk" or some sort of sexual activity.

This is why I am inclined to not believe the three defendants. The three are lying through their teeth and we are not supposed to notice.
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Offline stilicho


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Corrina wrote:
How could she notice the door was locked if she didn't try the handle? Or is it obvious on the doors of the cottage when one is locked simply by looking at it? If not, why did she want to enter Meredith's room while Meredith wasn't in it?


That's exactly what ran through my mind and doubtlessly through the minds of everyone listening to Knox too. It sounds like sheer desperation on her part to convince everyone that Meredith's door being closed or locked was a common occurrence whereas Filomena was correct in saying it was reason for alarm.

Locking that door was a blunder. It pointed directly to Knox as the only one responsible.
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Offline tjt


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Amanda writes undisciplined nonsense. She shows no consideration of the structure of language, of the rhythm, the sound, the importance of the careful selection of vocabulary, the need for tight control. . .

Good writing needs all that: care, consideration, and control. (That is an example of onomatopaeia - the use of words beginning with the same letter or sound - one of a host of techniques available to the serious writer. Here on PMF, Stint 7 makes telling use of this, obviously choosing words with care to achieve his desired effect.)

Good stream of consciousness prose is very difficult to do well. It requires hard work and usually much revision to get it to the point where it sounds spontaneous. Without it, it is just a stream of ostentatious and self-indulgent twaddle... Q.E.D.
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Offline Corrina


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

stilicho wrote:
Corrina wrote:
How could she notice the door was locked if she didn't try the handle? Or is it obvious on the doors of the cottage when one is locked simply by looking at it? If not, why did she want to enter Meredith's room while Meredith wasn't in it?


That's exactly what ran through my mind and doubtlessly through the minds of everyone listening to Knox too. It sounds like sheer desperation on her part to convince everyone that Meredith's door being closed or locked was a common occurrence whereas Filomena was correct in saying it was reason for alarm.

Locking that door was a blunder. It pointed directly to Knox as the only one responsible.


To me, it sounds like she often went into the rooms of her roommates without permission and without their knowledge.
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Offline piktor


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

stilicho wrote:
dgfred wrote:
Were there any smear patterns around those hallway prints? Like they had been wiped clean?


Yummi is yards ahead of me on this one but there's a problem in the "wiped clean" meme used by the groupies. The prints found in the hallway were probably diluted by water. The luminol application does not find blood as such but reacts instead with the elements contained in blood (among other substances). This means that someone could conceivably "wipe clean" a visible footprint yet leave its outline without knowing they did. It's also conceivable that the wiped outline would not be considerably distinct from the original blood pattern because the act of wiping does not necessarily entail moving the elements or compounds from the spot they'd originally been deposited.


The blood traces on the corridor and other places were probably embedded into the tile micro-pores. It is called "capillarity".

From wiki: Capillary action, or capillarity, is a phenomenon where liquid spontaneously rises in a narrow space such as a thin tube, or in porous materials. This effect can cause liquids to flow against the force of gravity. It occurs because of inter-molecular attractive forces between the liquid and solid surrounding surfaces; If the diameter of the tube is sufficiently small, then the combination of surface tension (which is caused by cohesion within the liquid) and forces of adhesion between the liquid and container act to lift the liquid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capillarity

A rag will wash away most of the bloody marks on the surface but some blood will seep into the tile's very small pores. When pressure by the bloody foot is applied on the tile, it helps embed blood traces into the tile.
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Bard, You do have a very good handle on human nature. Brava, Cara. So many really relevant posts, and there's not much I can add.

What strikes me most about Amanda's writing is : Nonsensical. I don't mean that in the sense that it's stupid. That might be an explanation. Just, it doesn't make sense. In any manner. It is simply, a disconnected piece of, well, gibberish.

Remorse? Maybe in her sub-conscience.. but not in reality. The denial is easier than the truth. I believe that Amanda has talked herself into being the victim. Kind of like the person who believes in her publicity. Does that create havoc in her mind? NO!! Amanda is, in my opinion, incapable of feeling any real emotion. In her mind, she's special. The one thing she clings to, desperately, is that she believes she has singing talent. Creativity is her mantra. The one thing she cannot accept, is that she's ORDINARY. That to her, would be the biggest insult. And deep down, what she fears, is true. And, it became apparent in Perugia. Resentment , not being singled out, not Particularly being NOTICED, was a feeling of failure.
This is a woman who dealt in pipe dreams, literally. In a perverse way, She's loving this attention. Better to be infamous, than ignored. Let's face it. If not for this terrible tragedy, no-one, apart from her family and few friends, would have known this individual. And, her true deviousness is obvious. IMO.

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Offline dgfred


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

But were the luminal prints tested as 'negative' for blood?
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

dgfred wrote:
But were the luminal prints tested as 'negative' for blood?


Yummi wrote an excellent post about luminol being used to reveal blood at crime scenes:

A little research on luminol prints.

First of all, a deleted comment. I never post on "IIP", but two days ago I decided to post the following comment, which was deleted in by the admin in 30 seconds (actual time, not metaphoric). The deleted comment:

Luminol could react to many things including various cleaning products, the TMB test is more specific for blood. Since it was not blood the luminol reacted to, it was something else and was most likely deposited days or weeks before the murder.


TMB is not more specific, it is only less sensitive (only on some substances and in a variable degree) to the same kind substances which give a reaction to luminol, but reacts positively to the all susbstance reacting with luminol.
In no case TMB is considered a mean of check or suitable for cross testing. Definitely TMB is not "more specific" for blood and never considered as such.
Phenophtalene ("KM test") is actually a chemichal presumptive test said to be more specific than Luminol/TMB. There is also a highly specific haematic test (an "enzymatic" test for haemoglobin), but lacks sensitiveness in comparison to all chemical presumptive tests.

Moreover, luminol is a direct test: it is made on the surface to be examined. TMB is indirect: a sample must be collected from a stain and put in contact with a filter and a solution. This additional step can be determinant in the actual dilution of the sample. If the stain was made visible by means of chemioluminescent reagent as luminol, which employs a layer of liquid solution, the original blood/substance concentration can be reduced: the solvent can literally dilute out blood.

You can verify all this in literature, if you are interested.

*

Now, the actual available literature about luminol and presumptive tests says more. Conclusions and implications are many and interesting. I don't want to encourage researches "ab extracta", from abstracts, as rightly said, like others do on the other sites. Most of this material is readable and the conclusions are available for everyone assessment, they deserve to be noted.



1.
This is a comparative study on blood tests.
Luminol interference on Analysis


Luminol has “far the greatest sensitiveness” :
“Webb et al. [22] conducted a study where the luminol test was compared to four other forensic blood tests. These tests where phenolphthalein, LMG, Hemastix (Bayer) and a forensic light source. The luminol test used was found to have by far the greatest
sensitivity. Under laboratorial conditions CL was detected from luminol treated stains of the used hemoglobin solution (corresponding to blood) diluted up to 5•106 times. A comparably high sensitivity of the luminol test has been reported in other studies [22].
However the sensitivity is probably not as great under the conditions found at a crime scene and here, depending on several factors, perhaps one may “only” see blood diluted to about 1:10000 [14]”.

TMB is no specific test. And it can produce false positives as well as false negatives:
Often these tests are based on the ability of hemoglobin to catalyse the oxidation of a chromogenic compound which produces a colour change [14]. Today the forensic use of about twenty such presumptive blood tests has been described [14]. They have all in common that they produce false positive and negative results to some degree, and therefore they are only presumptive [14].

Common substances that react to luminol are actually in a small number
In 2003 Creamer et al. [5] published a comprehensive study where the blood mimicking behaviour of 250 different substrates and compounds, common at crime scenes, had been measured on. In these test only 9 kinds of substrates or compounds were reported to give strong enough CL to be easy mistaken for blood.
These were preparations of turnip, parsnip, horseradish, bleaches (hypochlorite), copper metal, enamel paint, certain spray paints, furniture polish and interior fabrics in motor vehicles. In a separate study Quickenden et al.
[21] examined the interference with the luminol test for blood in motor vehicles. Also in motor vehicles only a few materials gave strong CL, without the presence of blood or hemoglobin solution.

[reading trhough articles you will see how the only kind of substances that can remain positive for days are metal salts, especially copper based composts; all other substances loose their capability to give positive result editor's note]

Substances are indeed recognizable by the color shade in luminol tests
(…) there are informative tables displaying intensities and wavelength shifts in
the CL [chemiluminescence, editor’s note] produced by the diverse materials.

This particular study relies on previous findings, cited, by which luminol doesn’t affect other presumptive tests (I note that other sources available on the internet apparently disagree with the latter finding).
Gross et al. [11] showedthat luminol treatment of bloodstains do not have a remarkable adverse effect on the use of neither the phenolphtalin (Kastle-Meyer) nor the tetramethylbenzidine tests. Other publications describes in a like manner that
the luminol test do not interfere with the subsequent use of other particular presumptive
blood tests [14].
The use of the luminol test has been found to have an strong adverse effect on subsequent forensic typing of serum protein markers [14].


2.
This is an abstract, probably of the cited article by Webb
“The luminol test was determined to be the most sensitive of the techniques, while Hemastix is a suitable alternative when the luminol test is not appropriate”: (only the abstract is readable)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16645959


3.
This study discusses effects of luminol on different materials, how this may influence the results in other tests and whether stains cleaned with soap or bleach are still visible though luminol.

http://projects.nfstc.org/workshops/res ... %20and.pdf


Among the conclusions, two points are clear: blood stains can still be visible even after a cleanup, and TMB can give false negatives (in accord with article cited in 1. ).

“ Prior to luminol testing, both PT and TMB performed well in detecting the blood on all surfaces which had not been washed.
Both tests gave positive results 7/7 times. Similar results were obtained on the surfaces which had been washed with either water or soap and water. (…) “

“ For those same surfaces tested with TMB, 3/7 gave strong positive results; one weak positive (tile) and three negative results (carpet, sheetrock-V, and sheetrock-H). The results for the PT test after the luminol treatment, both while the surface was still wet from the luminol treatment and after being allowed to dry, were similar to the results obtained before the luminol treatment. The only surface which gave different results after luminol treatment was the tile which was washed with bleach. Prior to luminol testing, the PT test on tile gave a weak positive result, while after luminol treatment the PT results were negative. Four of the surfaces which gave positive results with the TMB test before luminol treatment gave negative results after treatment (both wet and dry), and one of the surfaces which gave positive results before luminol treatment and after
luminol treatment (wet) gave negative results once the surface had dried.”

In this article there is also a table with lists of materials showing some false negatives ( - ) yielded by TMB on stains of blood at full concentration subsequently cleaned, under different conditions :


Tile PT TMB
Cleaned w/ soap and H2O PT: + + + TMB: + + +
Cleaned w/ 10% bleach PT: + - - TMB: w - -

….
Sheetrock
Cleaned w/ soap and H2O PT: + + + TMB: + - -
Cleaned w/ 10% bleach PT: - - - TMB: - - -

...


4.
This article is about interpretation of luminescence and the potential of specificity of luminol test by observing the light spectrum. It is straightforward to distinguish blood from bleach. Blood and bleach give different colour spectrums (it is in accord with study 1. ):
http://www.forensictv.net/Downloads/lum ... _blood.pdf

"The spectra in Fig. 2 show that the spectral maxima for sodium hypochlorite and for haemoglobin are clearly different and would readily be distinguishable using relatively straightforward spectroscopic equipment. (…)
The spectral peak for the concentrated (150 g/L) haemoglobin is at 455 + - 2 nm which is red-shifted by ca. 25 nm from the sodium hypochlorite peak at 430 + - 3 nm."


5.

An abstract of the cited study (Gross): an article on degradation of DNA after TMB/luminol tests: “Effect of presumptive tests reagents on human blood confirmatory tests and DNA analysis using real time polymerase chain reaction” – only the abstract is readable:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20643520



6.

Evaluation of six presumptive tests for blood (pdf) Another comparative study. This study talks about “false positives” and other substances reacting with blood tests, a comparison (specificity, sensitiveness) of the common different presumptive tests.
http://projects.nfstc.org/workshops/res ... Blood,.pdf

this study – in accord with the others - determines that luminol is the most sensitive:

" The luminol reagent reacted instantly, with both the 1:10,000 and 1:100,000 dilution factors producing a blue luminescence.
The luminescence lasted for close to a minute. [p. 104]"

"The Hemastixs reagent strips reacted with the 1:100,000 dilution by first causing a color reaction with the filter paper. At 1 min, one of the samples showed a color change on the filter paper of a green color. The rest of the samples showed this same reaction at between 1 min and 45 sec and 2 min. At 3 min and 45 sec, 17 of the reagent strips were a very light shade of green, (..) The remaining four strips registered a negative result at 4 min."
[editor’s note: positive reaction is a blue color; a 1/ 100.000 dilution equates to 45/50 erytrocytes per mm3 of liquid ; negative controls with TMB also give a green reaction after several minutes, so late or faint green is considered negative]

Another finding was that bleach doesn’t react with luminol after 18h

“ Contrary to the literature findings, this study found that luminol only reacted with blood and the metal salts. Bleach gave no reaction, but this could be because the bleach solution was only 5% concentration, and that it was not tested right away but first allowed to dry for at least 18 h “ (..)

bleach diminishes with time also its interference, aka inhibition of blood own luminescence:
“ Kent et al. (20) noted that when bleach-treated blood is left for several days, the interference by bleach is diminished. “ (..)

Also, several of the substances – like potato – do not react with luminol any more when dry, contrarily to blood:
“This could once again be due to the substances’ drying time before testing” (..) .

Interesting: according to this study, luminol is actually MORE specific than TMB (Hemastix)
“ (..) Based on this, the best overall presumptive blood test in this study was luminol. It had the greatest sensitivity and specificity. It did not destroy the DNA, and it could be reapplied. Its only drawback is that it must be used in near or complete darkness. Leuchomalachite green was found to be as specific to blood as luminol, but its sensitivity was 10 times less, and it destroyed the DNA. Phenolphthalein had equal sensitivity to most of the other tests, but was extremely unspecific, and the amount of recoverable DNA is reduced when this test is used. HemastixTM [TMB] were easy to transport and use, were sensitive, but not very specific although specificity could be increased if the strips were looked at rather than the reaction on the stain.”

[I note that some other studies instead seem to consider phenolphtalin (“Kastle-Meyer test”) as more specific than TMB, editor’s note]


7.

This .ppt (from centralia.edu/academics ) is a classroom text
CENTRALIA


8.

This is another classroom .ppt text: note that these lessons maintain that luminol affects subsequent tests, this one specifies the warning that luminol can "dilute out blood” and therfore affect other subsequent tests

here:
MARSHALL

or here:
http://www.science.marshall.edu/murraye ... %20DNA.ppt


9.
The abstract of another article highlights the superior sensitiveness of luminol test :
“A sensitive method for determination of serum hemoglobin based on iso-luminol chemiluminescence”

T. Olsson , a, K. Bergströma and A. Thorea
aDepartment of Clinical Chemistry, Karolinska Institutet, Huddinge University Hospital, S-141 86 HuddingeSweden
Received 16 November 1981. Available online 20 January 2003. The article is old and searchable on http://www.sciencedirect.com/

“ Abstract:
A simple and rapid method for determination of serum hemoglobin is described. Hemoglobin may be determined in serum within the range of 0.02–400 mg/1 by the sensitive chemiluminescent iso-luminol reaction. The iso-luminol assay was considerably more sensitive than the conventional colorimetric procedure based on tetramethylbenzidine. Precision and accuracy were higher with the iso-luminol assay especially at low levels of hemoglobin. The correlation between the luminescent and colorimetric method was linear but the colorimetric determinations resulted in higher concentrations of hemoglobin. This discrepancy was probably caused by non-heme serum iron which interfered more strongly with the colorimetric method. “


10.

More articles emphasize the greater sensitiveness of luminol. In this research luminol was found to be about 5 times more sensitive than TMB (Hemastix). But the sensitiveness of TMB decreases considerably if it is used with the “indirect” method, though paper/cotton sample:


http://lem.ch.unito.it/didattica/infoch ... angue.html

“ Based on the results presented here, the luminol test is clearly the most sensitive blood detection technique commonly used by forensic investigators. The Hemastix® test was the next most sensitive, followed by the KM and LMG techniques. The Polilight® was by far the least sensitive technique, being 50 000 times less sensitive than the luminol test and 10 times less sensitive that the next least sensitive technique investigated here (LMG). Another interesting finding was that the sensitivity of the KM, LMG and Hemastix® tests decreased considerably when applied to filter paper or cotton swabs of bloodstains. While the amount of blood transferred from a stain to a swab may vary considerably, depending on the investigator, this result clearly shows that it is favourable to test a bloodstain directly. The sensitivity of the luminol test was found to be 1:5 000 000 for both the bloodstained cloth and haemoglobin solutions. This was consistent with previously reported literature values [14, 22]. No literature results were found regarding the sensitivity of either the Hemastix® or Polilight® tests for blood; however, previous literature on the active reagent of the Hemastix® test, TMB, determined its sensitivity to be 1:1 000 000 for diluted haemoglobin solutions “
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Offline tjt


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Mea culpa. Sorry people, in my post where I was pontificating about writing I got muddled between onomatapaeia and alliteration. Alliteration: sorting similar sounds to spin striking sentences. (Sorry Stint 7.)

That should teach me not to post when I should be sleeping.
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

BTW. I believe Donnie is very sorry . He is young, and we have al f***ed up, I'm sure. He has not pmed me,or had any contact with me. I just feel that he misses PMF, and being included. It's not always easy to admit one's wrong, and he has done that.

Donnie, I cannot speak, or decide for anyone here, but for me, I think you genuinely feel terrible for what happened. And I'm a sucker for an apology, that I feel is genuine. Piano, piano...

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Offline smacker


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Sorry; I'm a bit behind here since I've been building a motion reacting skeleton butler (6 feet tall) that lights up, moves and delivers all sorts of diabolical comments before I collect the lad from school.

If there was indeed a confrontation between Meredith and AK and Meredith called AK a drugged up tart to her face I would imagine AK was more than a little put out. Not sure murder is the appropriate reaction but AK was probably hurting a bit after that gem. It would also put to bed any doubts as to whether or not AK and Meredith were friends.
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Offline windfall


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Has anyone read the book cover to cover? The kindle English translation? If so, would you care to comment on the way AK comes across in the book as a whole? And do we know if her stories and poems were written in English, translated into Italian for Girlanda's book, translated back into English for the kindle version? Or written in Italian originally? Or are the versions in the kindle as Amanda wrote them?

I'd be interested to hear some reactions, if anyone is able to comment.
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Offline stilicho


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

The Machine wrote:
dgfred wrote:
But were the luminal prints tested as 'negative' for blood?


Yummi wrote an excellent post about luminol being used to reveal blood at crime scenes:

A little research on luminol prints.

First of all, a deleted comment. I never post on "IIP", but two days ago I decided to post the following comment, which was deleted in by the admin in 30 seconds (actual time, not metaphoric). The deleted comment:

Quote:
Luminol could react to many things including various cleaning products, the TMB test is more specific for blood. Since it was not blood the luminol reacted to, it was something else and was most likely deposited days or weeks before the murder.


TMB is not more specific, it is only less sensitive (only on some substances and in a variable degree) to the same kind substances which give a reaction to luminol, but reacts positively to the all susbstance reacting with luminol.
In no case TMB is considered a mean of check or suitable for cross testing. Definitely TMB is not "more specific" for blood and never considered as such.
Phenophtalene ("KM test") is actually a chemichal presumptive test said to be more specific than Luminol/TMB. There is also a highly specific haematic test (an "enzymatic" test for haemoglobin), but lacks sensitiveness in comparison to all chemical presumptive tests.


It takes more than thirty seconds to read that entry and the links. I wonder why anyone would delete it without reading it.

One thing about the internet; it makes everyone instant science experts. The facts of the matter are that the investigators used exactly the right techniques on exactly the right parts of the cottage. All this other junk about rolling around in turnip juice, presumptive tests, inaccurate prints, and so on, are addressed at several points in the Massei Report and aren't likely to be successful features of any appeal.

It's almost incomprehensible that a well-paid legal team is going to re-assert the vague possibility that the luminol didn't really reveal bloody tracks in the corridor but that it was instead some rust or fruit juice deposited there weeks or months earlier. That sounds as silly as the infamous Chewbacca Defence mounted by Johnny Cochrane in a South Park episode.

Only on the internet are buffoons rewarded after offering aimless contentions about possible alternatives. Malkmus appears to be one of those. The rest of us (and the court--where it matters) understand quite well the connection between a room in which a lot of blood was found and an adjacent corridor with outlines revealed by luminol.

Good luck trying to convince the appeals court that there is no connection.
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Offline The 411


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:39 pm   Post subject: ONOMATOPOEIA   

tjt wrote:
Amanda writes undisciplined nonsense. She shows no consideration of the structure of language, of the rhythm, the sound, the importance of the careful selection of vocabulary, the need for tight control. . .

Good writing needs all that: care, consideration, and control. (That is an example of onomatopaeia - the use of words beginning with the same letter or sound - one of a host of techniques available to the serious writer. Here on PMF, Stint 7 makes telling use of this, obviously choosing words with care to achieve his desired effect.)

Good stream of consciousness prose is very difficult to do well. It requires hard work and usually much revision to get it to the point where it sounds spontaneous. Without it, it is just a stream of ostentatious and self-indulgent twaddle... Q.E.D.


Hi, tjt (Do we pronounce it as if it were "Tijit?")

Good post. There is no certainly technique or discipline or substance in AK's writing. It's, as you said "self-indulgent ....twaddle."

Just one little nit-picking remark about onomatopoeia, which I bet you already know.

I think you meant to write ALLITERATION here, instead of ONOMATOPOEIA
(Alliteration, which you know is the repetition of usually initial consonant sounds in two or more neighboring words or syllables--as in your example: care, consideration and control. )

ONOMATOPOEIA, on the other hand is:
"The property of a word of sounding like what it represents; A word which has the property of onomatopoeia, such as "moo" or "hiss.""

I think people frequently mix up ONOMATOPOEIA with alliteration because, let's face it, ONOMATOPOEIA is just too much fun to say...although, damn, it's quite a challenge to spell... when you want to write it!!

ETA: Ooops.You already realized this! Never Mind!
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Offline piktor


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:58 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

stilicho wrote:

One thing about the internet; it makes everyone instant science experts. The facts of the matter are that the investigators used exactly the right techniques on exactly the right parts of the cottage. All this other junk about rolling around in turnip juice, presumptive tests, inaccurate prints, and so on, are addressed at several points in the Massei Report and aren't likely to be successful features of any appeal.

It's almost incomprehensible that a well-paid legal team is going to re-assert the vague possibility that the luminol didn't really reveal bloody tracks in the corridor but that it was instead some rust or fruit juice deposited there weeks or months earlier. That sounds as silly as the infamous Chewbacca Defence mounted by Johnny Cochrane in a South Park episode.

Only on the internet are buffoons rewarded after offering aimless contentions about possible alternatives. Malkmus appears to be one of those. The rest of us (and the court--where it matters) understand quite well the connection between a room in which a lot of blood was found and an adjacent corridor with outlines revealed by luminol.

Good luck trying to convince the appeals court that there is no connection.


I posted a few days ago that it is a trail of little arrows all pointing to the defendants.

Pro-innocence fans want to treat each evidence episode isolated from the large picture and therefore irrelevant.

Normal people will see the evidence within a story line and within a context.

You can call the evidence little arrows or nuclear-tipped missiles. They nonetheless point in one direction.

You can still call a forest a forest, despite the shapeless trees, the crooked branches, the rocky patches, the weather and what have you. A forest is a forest, despite the objections of self-appointed perfect tree "scientific" prophets.
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Offline H9


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

windfall wrote:
Has anyone read the book cover to cover? The kindle English translation? If so, would you care to comment on the way AK comes across in the book as a whole? And do we know if her stories and poems were written in English, translated into Italian for Girlanda's book, translated back into English for the kindle version? Or written in Italian originally? Or are the versions in the kindle as Amanda wrote them?

I'd be interested to hear some reactions, if anyone is able to comment.



Alot of Save AK FB fans have purchased the book. I was under the impression she was writing in Italian. 411 thinks she is writing in braille and esperanto as well these days...
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Offline smacker


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

thought I'd mention that in England a tart (male or female) is someone who suffers from loose knicker elastic. Or something you have for desert.
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Offline piktor


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

h9A7wa9i1K wrote:
windfall wrote:
Has anyone read the book cover to cover? The kindle English translation? If so, would you care to comment on the way AK comes across in the book as a whole? And do we know if her stories and poems were written in English, translated into Italian for Girlanda's book, translated back into English for the kindle version? Or written in Italian originally? Or are the versions in the kindle as Amanda wrote them?

I'd be interested to hear some reactions, if anyone is able to comment.



Alot of Save AK FB fans have purchased the book. I was under the impression she was writing in Italian. 411 thinks she is writing in braille and esperanto as well these days...


Anita writes in knoxenese, actually.
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Hello, Donnie. You know, in my life I've done things I wish I hadn't. So, I empathize. How have you Been? I wondered how Poland has manged since that devastating plane crash?

Any more of your wonderful photos? Some things take time, Donnie. If you truly care, people will respond. Patience is a virtue, friend...

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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Piktor: To the point, as always: Who else *writes* like that? Mamma mia!!

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Offline piktor


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

capealadin wrote:
Piktor: To the point, as always: Who else *writes* like that? Mamma mia!!

Piano hands
camera girl
sex, sex
more
sex


Attachment:
knoxenese.png


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Offline Fly by Night


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

stint7 wrote:
Ever wonder how Curt covers all those expenses without having worked for a few years...


Reading the form below, doesn't a "miscarriage of misguided justice" imply that they got a "fair trial"?


After all, if the misguided part miscarried...


Proof positive these guys have absolutely no idea whatsoever what the hell they are talking about!


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Offline The Bard


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

capealadin wrote:
Bard, You do have a very good handle on human nature. Brava, Cara. So many really relevant posts, and there's not much I can add.

What strikes me most about Amanda's writing is : Nonsensical. I don't mean that in the sense that it's stupid. That might be an explanation. Just, it doesn't make sense. In any manner. It is simply, a disconnected piece of, well, gibberish.

Remorse? Maybe in her sub-conscience.. but not in reality. The denial is easier than the truth. I believe that Amanda has talked herself into being the victim. Kind of like the person who believes in her publicity. Does that create havoc in her mind? NO!! Amanda is, in my opinion, incapable of feeling any real emotion. In her mind, she's special. The one thing she clings to, desperately, is that she believes she has singing talent. Creativity is her mantra. The one thing she cannot accept, is that she's ORDINARY. That to her, would be the biggest insult. And deep down, what she fears, is true. And, it became apparent in Perugia. Resentment , not being singled out, not Particularly being NOTICED, was a feeling of failure.
This is a woman who dealt in pipe dreams, literally. In a perverse way, She's loving this attention. Better to be infamous, than ignored. Let's face it. If not for this terrible tragedy, no-one, apart from her family and few friends, would have known this individual. And, her true deviousness is obvious. IMO.



Yes, cape, and you have a good handle on it too!

I would go so far as to say that I think there are elements of this case that only women identify with in fact. We know the type sooooo well. Men, god bless them, often underestimate the level and depth of manipulation that some women are capable of. Other women see it immediately. I could go into a feminist defence of this statement, but I can't be arsed. (WINDFALL I CAN HEAR YOU NOW!!!! You make me laugh!) But sometimes you just need to come out with it. As a young teen I used my sexuality all the time to get what I wanted, but in retrospect I did not see that I was doing so at the time. It felt innocent. It didn't feel wrong. Only looking back do I see what I was doing. I think Amanda IS aware however. But she does not feel responsible (as I didn't) for the response of others towards her. It is very easy to maintain innocence in this way. Or the veneer of innocence. Cape, you and I have talked of this privately. You have felt that power too.

Luckily for most girls it stops at just attracting the man they want. For others, the power is intoxicating. Other women understand and abhor women who manipulate men in this way. It's unfair. They leave so many broken hearts. The good guys get hurt. 'Some' women behave like this. One can't generalise, and one could say that men use their sexuality (masculinity) constantly to get what THEY want. But this needs to be left aside as read. We have moved beyond that argument, into a post-post-feminist age. Reciprocal self-justification is pointless and dull. We need to be able to own contentious statements, huh windfall? (I love windfall). I stand by mine as a former manipulator, and an observer and victim of female manipulators. Amanda is all about manipulation, even as she denies it. She has not grown into her womanliness yet, had her heart broken, been passed over, been called, been rejected. All she has ever known is adoration and approval, even for the act of murder. You can almost sense an incestuous pride in Edda and Curt that will not be dented by proof absolute of her guilt. They are enablers.

Some people never know humility. Amanda will learn, and soon, what it means. At the moment everyone she comes into contact with she can manipulate. Even poor dim Michelle has fallen for it. I just want that road to end for her. It's only then she will discover self-knowledge and not live off the oxygen that others give her.

Cape, I know you will understand this x

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Offline fine


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 3:15 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

h9A7wa9i1K wrote:
You know.. I am sort of hoping that Ted Simon is working to extradite AK to Seattle. We don't want her in Europe anymore. She can do her time in a Washington prison. Where would she be sent do you think? I think she has been indulged too much in her fantasies in the Italian prison, it's time for her to go.




send her to Walla Walla

Volunteers are involved in religious programs, Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous meetings, assisting Veterans with military issues, assisting offender families with children mentoring programs, and special programs (i.e., dental hygienist, photographer, etc.) that are available to the offender population and their families.

Guest sport teams, choirs, musical groups, guest speakers/lecturers, and professional groups have held programs for the offender population. There are also groups that assist offenders in the process of re-integrating back into society. Some of the local motels have gift certificates available to assist families with their motel rate, if they need to spend a night at Walla Walla, either before or after a regularly scheduled visit.



http://www.doc.wa.gov/facilities/prison/wsp/default.asp

http://www.nsopw.gov/Core/Conditions.as ... eSupport=1


________________________

Amanda ain't goin' to Walla Walla. It's against the rules.......

"Washington State Penitentiary (also called the Walla Walla State Penitentiary) is a Washington State Department of Corrections men's prison located in Walla Walla, Washington." Walla Walla

But she could end up Here

///
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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 3:27 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

smacker wrote:

If there was indeed a confrontation between Meredith and AK and Meredith called AK a drugged up tart to her face I would imagine AK was more than a little put out. Not sure murder is the appropriate reaction ...


This may be over-imagining (in a kind way). The lack of light in an emotionless world cannot be stressed too strongly.


A better butler-building analogy:

Feeling "a little put out" requires emotion, and an empathy-module in the processing layer.

Besides the (more-or-less instinctive) girl-power that The Bard has pointed out above, there is, in addition, what I have been calling the "coping mechanism", which co-opts the verbal processing centres to emulate an emotional-type response.

Of necessity, this has to be done through a set of stipulated rules, and is very similar to learning how to write creatively, to learn painting by numbers, to learn a language "from the outside" by rote (i.e., through a grammar, of the La plume de me tante kind.).


Actual reaction-path diagnostics would follow an algorithm path like this:
  • Person X gestures, makes a facial expression, says something
  • Translation module activates:
    • a curl of lip indicates meanness/friendliness/anger/happiness
    • word Y + gesture Z = portrayal of anger/etc
    • word Y + gesture Z[sub]1[/sub] = joshing/taking the mickey/having a lark/leg pull
    • eyebrows scrunched together + creases in forehead indicate concentration or anger
  • examine/inspect face closely for extra clues
  • activate verbal-analysis module; construct internal narratives exploring likely scenario permutations;
  • assume worst-case scenario and work backwards; make a list; apply exceptions
    • a smile negates everything
    • a smile is always composed of showing-of-teeth plus narrowed-eyes plus maybe haw-haw throat noises or bending over or slapping something with the hands: exception to the exception: slapping something with the hands without a smile and with loud voice equals punishment for something equals helping/making something to do with the shouting
    • rule: when someone else smiles, that means they are kind; the appropriate response rule is: pull lips into corners, and (if in court) bow or nod head
      • Come sta? : How are you?
      • Bene, grazie. : Good, thanks.
  • stop looking at face for extra clues
  • construct verbal response agreeing in gender, number and context; if verbs (action words) are involved, agreement must also include tense and plot structure
  • articulate verbal response, use internal conversation-construction methods applied earlier if neccessary, beginning with intial reconstructed narrative thread and continuing from there
  • choose synonymous phrases for creativity; focus on denotation, connotation is for later (or the other way round?)
  • meta-rule: always practice the rules as often as practicable, if possible

There are too many rules this way.

A rule-based world will easily create "Knonsense", which will not be restricted only to young girls shut away in prisons.

It is not surprising that what others call "staying on topic" does not happen easily.

The crucial factor in the emotional-disconnect world is that there is no anchor or starting-point with which to stabilise the verbal rules (and the rules for processing the rules) in a coherently realistic and practical way. In an emotional-connect world, it is "obvious" where to draw the line, when to start, when to stop, how arbitrary is arbitrary, and so on.

The emotionally-disconnected has to cope by manufacturing the interpretation rules on their own, without explicit external guidance (because it is a "given" in others). Teaching yourself will get you some of the way. And the practice you build up in following "the rules" gives you a technique that helps in other things, like learning languages, or how to pick up glasses while waitressing.


P.S.
The "drogata" reference that Rudy alludes to in his story fits better situationally and linguistically with Raffaele bragging to Rudy (both inside a cloud of forgetting smoke) about the "quirkiness" of his girlfriend and something "endearing" she has just done or does (think teenage innuendo or door posters).

: Meredith talking to Amanda in Italian slang is possible, but unlikely in the circumstances, since native language for native speakers would be expected (and Rudy does have Meredith saying to Amanda" "We need to talk" in English).
: Meredith talking to Rudy in Italian slang about private matters, such as dealings with Amanda, where only her closest friends received her confidences, is also an unlikely stretch of the imagination.
: In script-writing terms, Rudy's story has the "Meredith" character doing and saying things in her role in his story that are consistent with different, other, personalities, and inconsistent with her own. This discordance hints that there is some sort of self-censoring going on (which is not surprising, given that it is a trial).

On the whole, my interpretation is that in his stories Rudy has shifted certain things onto Meredith, and away from Amanda and Raffaele, to the ultimate benefit of himself. Perhaps his recollection of events is confused, or not entirely accurate or complete. The fact that a shifting has occurred implies a sense of responsibility and a recognition of participation, if Rudy is acting "rationally" in writing his stories.

It may be said that this implication of a suppressed sense of responsibility is ironic, with respect to Rudy's perception of himself.
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Offline DLW


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 4:12 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

stilicho wrote:

‘That's exactly what ran through my mind and doubtlessly through the minds of everyone listening to Knox too. It sounds like sheer desperation on her part to convince everyone that Meredith's door being closed or locked was a common occurrence whereas Filomena was correct in saying it was reason for alarm.
Locking that door was a blunder. It pointed directly to Knox as the only one responsible.’

You might be talking about two different actions. One was locking Meredith’s door after the murder. Two: trying to convince Filomena et al. that Meredith routinely locked her door. I might agree with Mander’s decision to lock the bedroom door. Leaving it unlocked would require AK in particular, to find the body first. Or would require Amanda to be away from the cottage before the discovery. Both with potentially bigger downfalls. This led to the complication as to how to react to the locked door, with all the strange things going on. With the postal police there unexpended, it wasn’t a big deal to either AK/RS. Amanda then tried to convince Filomena that it was no big deal in order to justify Amanda’s own lack of real concern, only her gentle increase awareness of things not being right. Amanda wanted Filomena’s initial reaction to be the same as hers. It didn’t work out, but maybe they thought it was worth the gamble. After the discovery, that’s when I think AK/RS reinvented their concern (reasoning) over the locked bedroom door. Even panic stricken, an easy explanation for how the crack got in the door. Or for vanity reasons to appear like they were involved. But the pair could never reconcile those two extreme positions. It was a giant red flag for anybody investigating this case.
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Offline Emerald


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 4:17 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

stint7 wrote:
Ever wonder how Curt covers all those expenses without having worked for a few years...


Ever wonder how Curt's wife feels about him blowing her own daughters' inheritance and college funds on the murdering, criminal daughter of his first wife? That must create some lively discussions in the Knox home.
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Offline mimi


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 5:07 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

i am somewhat amazed that either of the Knox marriages has held together through all of the hand-holding. I thought CM would have ditched, as she's not even his flesh and blood. But I guess that would look really bad for the cameras, and, after all, Amanda "believes in the two of them".
Regarding her Ramblings-- "Stream of Consciousness", or "Shower of Shite"?

ps, all, thanks for tips on adjusting the board style!
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Offline Emerald


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 5:17 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

JMO

CM spending all his time in Italy near the adult Amanda seems creepy to me. He should be comforting his wife. Maybe Chris Mellas is near the woman he loves, huh?
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Offline stilicho


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:11 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

DLW wrote:
stilicho wrote:

‘That's exactly what ran through my mind and doubtlessly through the minds of everyone listening to Knox too. It sounds like sheer desperation on her part to convince everyone that Meredith's door being closed or locked was a common occurrence whereas Filomena was correct in saying it was reason for alarm.
Locking that door was a blunder. It pointed directly to Knox as the only one responsible.’

You might be talking about two different actions. One was locking Meredith’s door after the murder. Two: trying to convince Filomena et al. that Meredith routinely locked her door. I might agree with Mander’s decision to lock the bedroom door. Leaving it unlocked would require AK in particular, to find the body first. Or would require Amanda to be away from the cottage before the discovery. Both with potentially bigger downfalls. This led to the complication as to how to react to the locked door, with all the strange things going on. With the postal police there unexpended, it wasn’t a big deal to either AK/RS. Amanda then tried to convince Filomena that it was no big deal in order to justify Amanda’s own lack of real concern, only her gentle increase awareness of things not being right. Amanda wanted Filomena’s initial reaction to be the same as hers. It didn’t work out, but maybe they thought it was worth the gamble. After the discovery, that’s when I think AK/RS reinvented their concern (reasoning) over the locked bedroom door. Even panic stricken, an easy explanation for how the crack got in the door. Or for vanity reasons to appear like they were involved. But the pair could never reconcile those two extreme positions. It was a giant red flag for anybody investigating this case.


I am discussing both actions. Locking the door was a mistake; arguing with Filomena about its significance was worse.

It's been some time since we discussed the locking of the door but that action could only have led investigators to someone living in the cottage. Alibis quickly eliminated everyone excepting Knox. When she enthusiastically inserted herself into the investigation, that only cemented her involvement in the minds of the police.

It's interesting that the groupies protest loudly about lack of motive for the murder and yet, when faced with a very obvious motive for locking the door, they ignore it in favour of wild speculation about someone else performing that action. As with so much else (including the luminol-revealed prints), there are common sense implications of locking the door that won't escape a judge or jury.
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Offline norbertc


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Location: France

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 11:47 am   Post subject: Saturday Musings   

The interest of these boards seems to have moved beyond the question of Sollecito's and Knox's guilt, which has now been established. The focus now includes criminal psychology, the bizarre personalities and strategies of her "groupies", and the fascination of the tabloid press. Meredith's family remains silent in the face of this clamor.

------------------

Before reading the latest posts, I had wanted to explore the legal term "Reasonable Doubt". Here's one definition:

The level of certainty a juror must have to find a defendant guilty of a crime. A real doubt, based upon reason and common sense after careful and impartial consideration of all the evidence, or lack of evidence, in a case.

Proof beyond a reasonable doubt, therefore, is proof of such a convincing character that you would be willing to rely and act upon it without hesitation in the most important of your own affairs. However, it does not mean an absolute certainty.


I asked myself: what would it take to move me to a position of real doubt? I concluded that it has little to do with the forensic evidence and much to do with the behavior of the two killers. All it would take is a single action that contradicted the body of evidence.

For example, I imagine that Knox and Sollecito had led the effort to open Meredith's door - and had then reacted with obvious horror to the discovery. If they had done this, I think I'd be moved to a position of "real doubt" despite all the other evidence. As thing stand, however, they distanced themselves from that action; Knox had already phoned her mother in panic before the event; it's obvious they knew what was waiting behind the locked door.

The evidence and their actions all point in one direction: guilty as charged.

Is this an "100% certainty". Not 99.9% certainty, but 100% certainty? No. A very clever, devious killer could have set up the crime scene - including the lamp, the broken window, the clean-up, etc, - to suggest a cover-up by someone closer to the victim. Even more absurd, an alien space creature might have constructed the entire event to observe human behavior under stress prior to launching a war of conquest against the planet Earth.

These theories do not meet the tests of "reason" and "common sense". I do not need to prove that Professor Moriarty or a space alien are not responsible for the death of Meredith.

-------------------

I appreciate the excellent posts which attempt to explore the Knox consciousness as it is articulated in her behavior and writings. Personally, I'm fascinated by the "groupie" phenomenon that has attracted such a strange collection of misfits. I find myself wondering if this phenomenon is some kind of profound statement about the decline of our civilization ... or just another example of potential human craziness that has existed forever?

Ultimately I'm surprised that no true friend of Amanda (should such an individual exist) is encouraging her to tell the truth. After all, no one has claimed that the murder was premeditated and the sad event was likely a crazy prank gone wrong. It's the subsequent cover-up, lack of remorse, and lies that may be setting her up for an unnecessarily long stay behind bars. Do her attorneys truly believe in the substance of their appeal? I can not believe they do. No intelligent, objective person can explain away the dozens of large and small actions of Knox and Sollecito that indicate their involvement.

Just my opinion.
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 12:12 pm   Post subject: Re: Saturday Musings   

norbertc wrote:
I asked myself: what would it take to move me to a position of real doubt? I concluded that it has little to do with the forensic evidence and much to do with the behavior of the two killers. All it would take is a single action that contradicted the body of evidence.

For example, I imagine that Knox and Sollecito had led the effort to open Meredith's door - and had then reacted with obvious horror to the discovery. If they had done this, I think I'd be moved to a position of "real doubt" despite all the other evidence. As thing stand, however, they distanced themselves from that action; Knox had already phoned her mother in panic before the event; it's obvious they knew what was waiting behind the locked door.


Many people who have been convicted of murder appeared on television and made appeals for information. There was a documentary about this phenomenon on British television. Fortunately, the jurors in these particular cases had enough common sense and emotional intelligence not to be fooled by the murderers' acting abilities and focused instead on the actual evidence.

Here is a BBC article about killers who cried crocodile tears:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7288543.stm


Last edited by The Machine on Sat Oct 30, 2010 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Emerald


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 12:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Amanda's friends seem to know the truth........ she is quite capable and most likely culpable of the heinous crimes against Meredith Kercher. The friends have witnessed situations where Amanda's activities escalate to levels which could cross into physically dangerous criminal zones for others had they not stopped her.
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Offline bucketoftea


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 12:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

I think Amanda does have a true friend in the priest. He forgave her from the beginning.

As a parent I would be concerned for her "soul"; her peace of mind and longterm welfare. Living a lie in whatever context is its own petit hell. Something has to give, and it won't be good. I understand this partly by training, but I think the maternal instinct plays the greater part, so I'm surprised if after all this time Edda hasn't come to the same conclusion.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 12:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Someone was asking sometime back what the "Dummy" switch in the post box does. I replied at the time that it enables people to post 'Books for dummies', but I didn't have an example to show what I meant. Here's one now:


_________________
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THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline bucketoftea


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 12:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Emerald wrote:
JMO

CM spending all his time in Italy near the adult Amanda seems creepy to me. He should be comforting his wife. Maybe Chris Mellas is near the woman he loves, huh?


I think it's creepy, too, but I'm altogether not sure why. I don't see why they feel someone must be there all the time, I really don't. He is the worst possible influence.

If I were Edda, I'd be pretty pissed off that Cherub Chops Chris was the one who got to live in Italy. I wonder if he tells her all the time that it's horrible. You wouldn't like it, Edda....
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Offline stint7


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

bucketoftea wrote:
I think Amanda does have a true friend in the priest. He forgave her from the beginning.

As a parent I would be concerned for her "soul"; her peace of mind and longterm welfare. Living a lie in whatever context is its own petit hell. Something has to give, and it won't be good. I understand this partly by training, but I think the maternal instinct plays the greater part, so I'm surprised if after all this time Edda hasn't come to the same conclusion.


Hi BOT

As one of the more wordy FOAKers does on each of the several boards she populates,
may I ask ...

Cite, Cite, Cite ?? References please ?? ;)

Seriously I am not sure Manders is not 'living a lie' with the Good Prison Padre Saulo, as you point out, the lie she is living with herself, her Family and of course, her hapless, agenda blinded Groupies.

Since she is not of his Catholic Faith (or any Faith), if any 'forgiveness', maybe Fr Saulo just bestows a general type of 'overall forgiveness' on all his wards @ Capanne.

Maybe it is the cynic in me coming out again, but I see it as due to Manders's well detected and often used cunning and manipulative skills,
the Good Padre believes her to be innocent of murder, as reportedly do all her fellow convicted felons. (FWIW)

Quote from News Article:
In her cell in Capanne prison, Knox refuses to accept one iota of guilt. Fr Saulo Scarabattoli, the prison chaplain, visits once a week and says it is this that sustains her. 'There are those who may recognise their guilt and hope for a fair sentence. And there are those who believe in their innocence, and this leads to having greater hope,' says the priest. 'Fundamentally, it is this hope that keeps Amanda Knox going day after day.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/artic ... z13qYouE73


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Last edited by stint7 on Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

(( OT OT ))

A couple of weeks ago I posted a film for members (Raise the Titanic) and it went down quite well (no pun intended).

Well, since it's the weekend again I thought I'd post another good Saturday movie.

This week's is Harrison Bergeron. Set in a future perpetually trapped in the 1950's, society is kept 'dummed down'. Everyone by law has to wear headbands that lower their intelligence and television programming is kept at the inane. In this society, students are nurtured to all score a C average, sportsmen and women have to have all manner of handicaps to keep them 'average'. The aim is for an egalitarian average society where nobody excels at anything and nobody is cleverer or more talented then anyone else...the belief being that this will create a happy society and eradicate envy and with it, war and crime. But then comes along Harrison Bergeron, a young lad who no matter how much the juice is turned up on his headband he just can't seem to stop being cleverer then everyone else. Starring Sean Astin ('Sam' in the Lord of the Rings, 'Mikey' in The Goonies), Christopher plummer and Eugene Levy. (Some language towards the end and one brief non-nudity sexual scene)

Part 1




Part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f72rxzQ7mVg

Part 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fP3zhQ08nRw

Part 4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7UD5lglE9U

Part 5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zc3F-F1AJYo

Part 6

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAt7K7ydBTY

Part 7

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMsVoK8Nx9U

Part 8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiZMBZEMwq0

Part 9

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCEjvQZ3gS8

_________________
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THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline DJLawless


Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 5:47 am

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Emerald wrote:
stint7 wrote:
Ever wonder how Curt covers all those expenses without having worked for a few years...


Ever wonder how Curt's wife feels about him blowing her own daughters' inheritance and college funds on the murdering, criminal daughter of his first wife? That must create some lively discussions in the Knox home.
Hello Emerald,

I have wondered this very same thing, regarding the radioactive fall out that has landed on anita's siblings. There has to be a lot of resentment built up in all of those households.

And I believe that Curt knows full well that anita is responsible; for the murder, for the financial devastation that has followed, and for the damnable distressing upheaval of constant travel and being uprooted from his family, his children.

I cannot imagine the deep underlying resentments that are festering in those so affected. IMHO, anita's effect on her intimates is like a slow working poison, the effects of which have yet to be realized.

JMO also, Emerald. I think you have cut straight to the story that is still being written. Tragedies in the making, and sad.

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r-(( Rest in Peace Meredith Kercher r-((
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Offline bucketoftea


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Hi Stint

I think what I meant is there *was* someone who asked her to tell the truth and left the door open for the same. Good counsel was available, what she did with that opportunity is something else.
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Offline DJLawless


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

bucketoftea wrote:
Emerald wrote:
JMO

CM spending all his time in Italy near the adult Amanda seems creepy to me. He should be comforting his wife. Maybe Chris Mellas is near the woman he loves, huh?


I think it's creepy, too, but I'm altogether not sure why. I don't see why they feel someone must be there all the time, I really don't. He is the worst possible influence.
If I were Edda, I'd be pretty pissed off that Cherub Chops Chris was the one who got to live in Italy. I wonder if he tells her all the time that it's horrible. You wouldn't like it, Edda....


Hello bucketoftea, hello again Emerald,

Maybe it's the lesser of two evils; the alternative is that he is home alone with her other girls and she is away.

I also agree with you about cheeks boy being a worst influence; he comes across to me as crass and immature and too self absorbed to be trusted. Totally the opposite IMHO of a roll model.

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r-(( Rest in Peace Meredith Kercher r-((
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Offline DJLawless


Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 5:47 am

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Note to our wonderful Administrators!

Our "Posts:" counter does not appear to be working. My last posts are all Post number 70. I checked some other recent member posts and none of the numbers appear to be cumulating.

Is this because of our recent server hiccups? sor-)

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r-(( Rest in Peace Meredith Kercher r-((
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Offline DJLawless


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Oops, then when I made that post, all of my previous "Posts: numbers turned to "71". It seems to be be automatically updating all of the previous post numbers; just like addding a 'signature line' would do.

Yep, sor-)

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 3:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

:)

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Offline bucketoftea


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 3:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Hey DJLawless

Please call me bucket. :D
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Offline tom_ch


Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:40 am

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 3:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Michael wrote:
(( OT OT ))

A couple of weeks ago I posted a film for members (Raise the Titanic) and it went down quite well (no pun intended).

Well, since it's the weekend again I thought I'd post another good Saturday movie.

This week's is Harrison Bergeron. Set in a future perpetually trapped in the 1950's, society is kept 'dummed down'. Everyone by law has to wear headbands that lower their intelligence and television programming is kept at the inane. In this society, students are nurtured to all score a C average, sportsmen and women have to have all manner of handicaps to keep them 'average'. The aim is for an egalitarian average society where nobody excels at anything and nobody is cleverer or more talented then anyone else...the belief being that this will create a happy society and eradicate envy and with it, war and crime. But then comes along Harrison Bergeron, a young lad who no matter how much the juice is turned up on his headband he just can't seem to stop being cleverer then everyone else. Starring Sean Astin ('Sam' in the Lord of the Rings, 'Mikey' in The Goonies), Christopher plumber and Eugene Levy. (Some language towards the end and one brief non-nudity sexual scene)

It's based on a short story by Kurt Vonnegut. Haven't seen the movie, but I've read all of Vonnegut's work, he is one of my favorite authors.

Tom

P.S. Ironically, I read it after returning from a year studying in France when I was 15-16 (didn't kill anyone though).


Last edited by tom_ch on Sat Oct 30, 2010 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline bucketoftea


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 3:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Vonnegut rocks.
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Offline tom_ch


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 3:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

bucketoftea wrote:
Hey DJLawless

Please call me bucket. :D

Is that pronounced "buck-it", or "boo-kay"?

Tom
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Offline piktor


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 3:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Catnip wrote:
smacker wrote:

If there was indeed a confrontation between Meredith and AK and Meredith called AK a drugged up tart to her face I would imagine AK was more than a little put out. Not sure murder is the appropriate reaction ...


This may be over-imagining (in a kind way). The lack of light in an emotionless world cannot be stressed too strongly.


A better butler-building analogy:

Feeling "a little put out" requires emotion, and an empathy-module in the processing layer.

Besides the (more-or-less instinctive) girl-power that The Bard has pointed out above, there is, in addition, what I have been calling the "coping mechanism", which co-opts the verbal processing centres to emulate an emotional-type response.

Of necessity, this has to be done through a set of stipulated rules, and is very similar to learning how to write creatively, to learn painting by numbers, to learn a language "from the outside" by rote (i.e., through a grammar, of the La plume de me tante kind.).


Actual reaction-path diagnostics would follow an algorithm path like this:
  • Person X gestures, makes a facial expression, says something
  • Translation module activates:
    • a curl of lip indicates meanness/friendliness/anger/happiness
    • word Y + gesture Z = portrayal of anger/etc
    • word Y + gesture Z[sub]1[/sub] = joshing/taking the mickey/having a lark/leg pull
    • eyebrows scrunched together + creases in forehead indicate concentration or anger
  • examine/inspect face closely for extra clues
  • activate verbal-analysis module; construct internal narratives exploring likely scenario permutations;
  • assume worst-case scenario and work backwards; make a list; apply exceptions
    • a smile negates everything
    • a smile is always composed of showing-of-teeth plus narrowed-eyes plus maybe haw-haw throat noises or bending over or slapping something with the hands: exception to the exception: slapping something with the hands without a smile and with loud voice equals punishment for something equals helping/making something to do with the shouting
    • rule: when someone else smiles, that means they are kind; the appropriate response rule is: pull lips into corners, and (if in court) bow or nod head
      • Come sta? : How are you?
      • Bene, grazie. : Good, thanks.
  • stop looking at face for extra clues
  • construct verbal response agreeing in gender, number and context; if verbs (action words) are involved, agreement must also include tense and plot structure
  • articulate verbal response, use internal conversation-construction methods applied earlier if neccessary, beginning with intial reconstructed narrative thread and continuing from there
  • choose synonymous phrases for creativity; focus on denotation, connotation is for later (or the other way round?)
  • meta-rule: always practice the rules as often as practicable, if possible

There are too many rules this way.

A rule-based world will easily create "Knonsense", which will not be restricted only to young girls shut away in prisons.

It is not surprising that what others call "staying on topic" does not happen easily.

The crucial factor in the emotional-disconnect world is that there is no anchor or starting-point with which to stabilise the verbal rules (and the rules for processing the rules) in a coherently realistic and practical way. In an emotional-connect world, it is "obvious" where to draw the line, when to start, when to stop, how arbitrary is arbitrary, and so on.

The emotionally-disconnected has to cope by manufacturing the interpretation rules on their own, without explicit external guidance (because it is a "given" in others). Teaching yourself will get you some of the way. And the practice you build up in following "the rules" gives you a technique that helps in other things, like learning languages, or how to pick up glasses while waitressing.


P.S.
The "drogata" reference that Rudy alludes to in his story fits better situationally and linguistically with Raffaele bragging to Rudy (both inside a cloud of forgetting smoke) about the "quirkiness" of his girlfriend and something "endearing" she has just done or does (think teenage innuendo or door posters).

: Meredith talking to Amanda in Italian slang is possible, but unlikely in the circumstances, since native language for native speakers would be expected (and Rudy does have Meredith saying to Amanda" "We need to talk" in English).
: Meredith talking to Rudy in Italian slang about private matters, such as dealings with Amanda, where only her closest friends received her confidences, is also an unlikely stretch of the imagination.
: In script-writing terms, Rudy's story has the "Meredith" character doing and saying things in her role in his story that are consistent with different, other, personalities, and inconsistent with her own. This discordance hints that there is some sort of self-censoring going on (which is not surprising, given that it is a trial).

On the whole, my interpretation is that in his stories Rudy has shifted certain things onto Meredith, and away from Amanda and Raffaele, to the ultimate benefit of himself. Perhaps his recollection of events is confused, or not entirely accurate or complete. The fact that a shifting has occurred implies a sense of responsibility and a recognition of participation, if Rudy is acting "rationally" in writing his stories.

It may be said that this implication of a suppressed sense of responsibility is ironic, with respect to Rudy's perception of himself.


Catnip,

I think it is very important to separate what we want to hear and what we want to believe from what is FACTUAL.

The three defendants are lying. That is a fact.

They have said, testified or have written things that sound factual but are nonetheless self-serving. This is a great source of frustration mostly for the lawyers of the defendants. For us in the peanut gallery, we gotta be extra-attentive.

The judges will probably know how to catalog these "truths" by the defendants. Their good judgement has the three behind bars, rightfully so.

We, the public watching on the outside looking in, have to be on the defensive about the defendants' every word on this matter. They are in a desperate situation and will say anything to improve their sorry position.

We cannot have the luxury of picking and choosing "what is true" and what are self-serving fabrications. There has to be a method to the madness.

In Guede's case, whatever he says comes from a self-serving coward, as are the other two accused. Three cowards who could only help themselves by assault, torture, murder, staging the scene of their crime, falsely accusing an innocent man and lie to no end. The three are worthy of no trust.

The "tart" description by Guede sounds right but has no real weight because he has not come clean in a way that matters. He probably will never come clean because the time for opportune revelations has passed.

What is left is a fog of words whose meaning in this case Catnip has masterfully deciphered:

Quote:
In script-writing terms, Rudy's story has the "Meredith" character doing and saying things in her role in his story that are consistent with different, other, personalities, and inconsistent with her own. This discordance hints that there is some sort of self-censoring going on (which is not surprising, given that it is a trial).

On the whole, my interpretation is that in his stories Rudy has shifted certain things onto Meredith, and away from Amanda and Raffaele, to the ultimate benefit of himself. Perhaps his recollection of events is confused, or not entirely accurate or complete. The fact that a shifting has occurred implies a sense of responsibility and a recognition of participation, if Rudy is acting "rationally" in writing his stories.

It may be said that this implication of a suppressed sense of responsibility is ironic, with respect to Rudy's perception of himself.


viewtopic.php?p=65327#p65327
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Offline SomeAlibi


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 4:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Having read Massei, I can't see the detail of where Meredith and Sophie split up on the way home that night. Can anyone tell me where they split?

Many thanks
SA

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Offline SomeAlibi


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 4:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Ummmm anyone seen this one before? Probably - found googling Domus


Image

_________________
What it is is spin lent credence because it's from the mouth of a lawyer. We've seen how much gravitas they can carry merely by saying something is or is not so when often they are speaking as much rubbish as anyone else.
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Offline bucketoftea


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 4:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

tom_ch wrote:
bucketoftea wrote:
Hey DJLawless

Please call me bucket. :D

Is that pronounced "buck-it", or "boo-kay"?

Tom
Buck-it's good, but hear it in your head as you please. :)
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Offline The 411


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Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:49 pm

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 4:39 pm   Post subject: Get thee (AK )to a Nunnery!   

stint7 wrote:
bucketoftea wrote:
I think Amanda does have a true friend in the priest. He forgave her from the beginning.

As a parent I would be concerned for her "soul"; her peace of mind and longterm welfare. Living a lie in whatever context is its own petit hell. Something has to give, and it won't be good. I understand this partly by training, but I think the maternal instinct plays the greater part, so I'm surprised if after all this time Edda hasn't come to the same conclusion.


Hi BOT

As one of the more wordy FOAKers does on each of the several boards she populates,
may I ask ...

Cite, Cite, Cite ?? References please ?? ;)

Seriously I am not sure Manders is not 'living a lie' with the Good Prison Padre Saulo, as you point out, the lie she is living with herself, her Family and of course, her hapless, agenda blinded Groupies.

Since she is not of his Catholic Faith (or any Faith), if any 'forgiveness', maybe Fr Saulo just bestows a general type of 'overall forgiveness' on all his wards @ Capanne.

Maybe it is the cynic in me coming out again, but I see it as due to Manders's well detected and often used cunning and manipulative skills,
the Good Padre believes her to be innocent of murder, as reportedly do all her fellow convicted felons. (FWIW)

Quote from News Article:
In her cell in Capanne prison, Knox refuses to accept one iota of guilt. Fr Saulo Scarabattoli, the prison chaplain, visits once a week and says it is this that sustains her. 'There are those who may recognise their guilt and hope for a fair sentence. And there are those who believe in their innocence, and this leads to having greater hope,' says the priest. 'Fundamentally, it is this hope that keeps Amanda Knox going day after day.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/artic ... z13qYouE73


Continuing with the Bucket/Stint discussion....

Am I the only one baffled by Fr. Saulo and his thinking?

The man seems so deeply impressed with how "sincerely" Manders cites the prayers and does the readings. He sees *THIS* as evidence of her potential to be a nun? Yet Manders has no religious convictions whatsoever.

Hence, there is ONLY ONE CONCLUSION HERE!!! The real talent the Padre is witnessing is HER ACTING. Or maybe, at best her... ORATORY?

Padre: If "sounding sincere" while reciting and prayer makes one a good andidate for the nunnery.... rul-)

Why not just add these women to your list of women with "good nun potential"?
p-)) p-)) p-)) p-))
--Whoopi Goldberg
--Claudette Colbert
--Audrey Hepburn
--Julie Andrews ("How do you solve a problem like A-NITA? wh-) )
--SALLY FIELDS!!!!
--Ingrid Bergmen
--Loretta Young, etc., etc...

Or even better....English actress KATHLEEN BYRON, who played the nun "Sister Ruth" in the film "The "Black Narcissus" :twisted:
From the 1/21/09 Sunday Times



"[The Black Narcissus" is a] steamy tale of religious devotion and repressed sexuality in the Himalayas***, Sister Ruth is driven mad by lust, memorably abandoning habit and wimple :shock: and painting her lips blood red, renouncing her vows and declaring her love for the government agent David Farrar. His affections are reserved for Sister Clodagh (Deborah Kerr). The two women tussle on the convent bell tower and Sister Ruth plunges to her death. "

***411 Note: OMG, :lol: More of those hills/ mountains references!!!
__________________________________________________________________________
Hate to say it...but Fr. Saulo sounds like another middle-aged man projecting his own (religious) fantasy on to the blank slate that is Manders. That's a sin! ss) for him and for all the other inmates.



Ahhhh...If only I had 1/10th of Piktor's artistic talent right about now... ;) Yes, that's a hint, Piktor!!!
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Offline stint7


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Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:07 pm

Posts: 1582

PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 4:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

SomeAlibi wrote:
Having read Massei, I can't see the detail of where Meredith and Sophie split up on the way home that night. Can anyone tell me where they split?
Many thanksSA


Hi SA

2100 Meredith leaves friend’s house with Sophie Purton to return home, Sophie walks her halfway

2105 Sophie Purton leaves Meredith on Via Roscetto, Meredith continues home alone

From PMF comprehensive timeline

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2
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Offline bucketoftea


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Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:09 pm

Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 5:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

I've focused on what the priest said at the beginning, which is a mistake. Could I be thinking of a different Padre altogether? It was soon after her arrest and when asked if he thought she was guilty, he answered "Anyone can lose control". He also said he was asking her to tell the truth.
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Offline The 411


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Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:49 pm

Posts: 1386

PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 5:22 pm   Post subject: Sister "Act"   

bucketoftea wrote:
I've focused on what the priest said at the beginning, which is a mistake. Could I be thinking of a different Padre altogether? It was soon after her arrest and when asked if he thought she was guilty, he answered "Anyone can lose control". He also said he was asking her to tell the truth.


AFAIK, "Father Saul" has been the only Campanne Prison Chaplain since AK has been incarcerated.

From Nick Pisa's article on the day AK first took the stand:

"Prison chaplain father Saulo Scarabattoli said:'Amanda is in control of her emotions and has told me that she is looking forward to finally getting the chance to speak in court.

'In the beginning she found it difficult to accept that she was in prison but she has learned to cope very well with it and she has dedicated herself to the activities on offer in the prison.

'She is studying various foreign languages and she is also very keen on acting and drama - she took part in a production we had in prison of The Prodigal Son and she and the others danced and acted - she is a very good dancer. dm-)

'Amanda is also rehearsing for a production which will take place at the end of the month based on the film Sister Act which the nuns who help out at the prison are also taking part in. p-))

'I won't see her know until Saturday after she has spoken in court but my last words to her were what they always are I said to her to tell the truth through the Gospel and she said she would.

'She seemed very calm and relaxed about it and has seen her lawyers to go through what she will say - I do detect some anxiety in her but she has told me that the truth will come out and she wants to speak.'


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldne ... z13rajLYhq
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Offline Solange305


Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:14 am

Posts: 604

PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 5:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Michael wrote:
(( OT OT ))

A couple of weeks ago I posted a film for members (Raise the Titanic) and it went down quite well (no pun intended).

Well, since it's the weekend again I thought I'd post another good Saturday movie.

This week's is Harrison Bergeron. Set in a future perpetually trapped in the 1950's, society is kept 'dummed down'. Everyone by law has to wear headbands that lower their intelligence and television programming is kept at the inane. In this society, students are nurtured to all score a C average, sportsmen and women have to have all manner of handicaps to keep them 'average'. The aim is for an egalitarian average society where nobody excels at anything and nobody is cleverer or more talented then anyone else...the belief being that this will create a happy society and eradicate envy and with it, war and crime. But then comes along Harrison Bergeron, a young lad who no matter how much the juice is turned up on his headband he just can't seem to stop being cleverer then everyone else. Starring Sean Astin ('Sam' in the Lord of the Rings, 'Mikey' in The Goonies), Christopher plumber and Eugene Levy. (Some language towards the end and one brief non-nudity sexual scene)

(Video & video links)


Awesome, thank you Michael! I really really really enjoyed Raise the Titanic, and this one sounds great as well! Much appreciated br-))
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 5:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

As usual, Bard, you're absolutely right, and you've said it better than I could. I agree that we women instinctively have a really good read on other women. Unfortunately for me, I have to deal with one such manipulator constantly, (she's in the fam) and even though I've called her on it, she is unable to stop. In fact, it's worse, because then words are twisted to make her appear that she was right the whole time, and the other person wrong. I have come to realize that this behaviour is ingrained, and cannot be changed. She's in her late thirties now.

Tom, Isn't Hyacinth Bucket a scream ? :)

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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

What a great post, Norbert.

Like wise to Catnip. I really had to concentrate on that one, to get all the nuances, and it's very informative.

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Offline The Bard


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

capealadin wrote:
What a great post, Norbert.

Like wise to Catnip. I really had to concentrate on that one, to get all the nuances, and it's very informative.


That's what I love about Catnip's posts. The world seems to slow down whilst I read them... :D

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Offline tom_ch


Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:40 am

Posts: 241

Location: CH

PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 7:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

capealadin wrote:
Tom, Isn't Hyacinth Bucket a scream ? :)

That's why I had to have bucket(oftea) clarify things!

Tom
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 7:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Oh Christ, just been reading through the pap on the 'other' site...what's is called...the JREF? There, Candace Dempsey is considered an authority, a primary source...

Come on!

Dempsey is a failed journalist that stayed at home after getting married and then while getting bored in married life set up a reader blog on the Seattle PI discussing such deep matters as cooking recipes and travel. Then, Meredith got murdered. That was Candace's 'lucky break', after having her attention drawn to it by her sister. So, the Cook's blog suddenly became a 'true crime' blog, but one from the beginning in support of the home town girl. And what Candace did, aside from deleting and banning anyone that didn't support the home town girl or interfered too much with inconveniences like the facts or the truth, was to use the input of the posters (those she allowed) on her blog to help her write her book which she also planned from the early days. From day one she was FOA, she needed the family to write the other half of her book that her posters couldn't write. To produce a book, all then that was required was to put everyone "else's" work in santised order. Now she's written her book, she doesn't need those posters any more, hence why comments on her blog are always closed...her posters have already been bled dry for content that matches the agenda of her book. Her blog now serves as nothing more then a vessel to advertise her book.

All from a woman that claims to speak Italian but doesn't...having always had to have used posters like Yummi or Finn to translate for her and without those rely on Google Translate, who attended no more then two hearings and who has plaguerised Frank to fill most of her book.

For those who worship Dempsey...know and remember this...WE were there when she started (literally) and we observed her, along with the case, from week to week, correcting her misinformation but being ignored if it didn't match the planned theme of her book. And I will add this, aside from being dishonest, Dempsey isn't very bright. So, quoting a book at us written by someone who is both dishonest, thick and a FOA stooge isn't the best of moves.

Candace never wrote her piece of shite book...Amanda's family and the posters on her blog wrote it. That's the reality.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 7:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Meredith Kercher's murder is not "a really great story"
Hayden Panettiere's reaction to playing Amanda Knox is as tasteless as the movie itself, says Jenny McCartney.


THE TELEGRAPH

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
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Offline stint7


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 8:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Michael wrote:
Oh Christ, just been reading through the pap on the 'other' site...what's is called...the JREF?
There, Candace Dempsey is considered an authority, a primary source...Come on!

Dempsey is a failed journalist that stayed at home after getting married and then while getting bored in married life set up a reader blog on the Seattle PI discussing such deep matters as cooking recipes and travel.

All from a woman that claims to speak Italian but doesn't...having always had to have used posters like Yummi or Finn to translate for her and without those rely on Google Translate, who attended no more then two hearings and who has plaguerised Frank to fill most of her book.


In addition to all the above...When Candace first started her blog; 'Italian Woman at the Table' it was just her eating at various Seattle Restaurants and writing a critique of how much she liked/disliked the menu.
Thus the descriptive title for Candace...'Food Blogger'

Although she would have one believe she was also a travel blogger, the extent of her knowledge of any travel at that time was limited to the best route in Seattle to drive between the Restaurants she visited.

In addition to the 'helpers' you mention, she made extensive use of Freelance Italian Interpreter and writer/Producer wanna bee Giulia Alagna to complete her novel like 'book', that as you note, the FOAKer groupies equate to the Bible for obvious reasons.

Giulia was utilized to help Candace understand basic Italian, attend the trial for some of the many, many days Candace missed, and to share with Candace information she gleaned from her PR Police approved close association with the Mellox Klan


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Offline Clander


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Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:26 am

Posts: 855

Location: Rome

Highscores: 77

PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 8:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Michael wrote:
Someone was asking sometime back what the "Dummy" switch in the post box does. I replied at the time that it enables people to post 'Books for dummies', but I didn't have an example to show what I meant. Here's one now:



It's all very funny. But that "Edited by Yummi" really cracked me up. :D
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 8:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Michael wrote:
Meredith Kercher's murder is not "a really great story"
Hayden Panettiere's reaction to playing Amanda Knox is as tasteless as the movie itself, says Jenny McCartney.


THE TELEGRAPH


I'm pleased that Jenny McCartney has condemned the film so strongly and referred to Knox, Sollecito and Guede as murderers.
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Offline piktor


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Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:30 pm

Posts: 1081

PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 8:29 pm   Post subject: Re: Sister "Act"   

The 411 wrote:
with the Bucket/Stint discussion....

Am I the only one baffled by Fr. Saulo and his thinking?

The man seems so deeply impressed with how "sincerely" Manders cites the prayers and does the readings. He sees *THIS* as evidence of her potential to be a nun? Yet Manders has no religious convictions whatsoever.

Hence, there is ONLY ONE CONCLUSION HERE!!! The real talent the Padre is witnessing is HER ACTING. Or maybe, at best her... ORATORY?

Padre: If "sounding sincere" while reciting and prayer makes one a good andidate for the nunnery.... rul-)

Why not just add these women to your list of women with "good nun potential"?
p-)) p-)) p-)) p-))
--Whoopi Goldberg
--Claudette Colbert
--Audrey Hepburn
--Julie Andrews ("How do you solve a problem like A-NITA? wh-) )
--SALLY FIELDS!!!!
--Ingrid Bergmen
--Loretta Young, etc., etc...

Or even better....English actress KATHLEEN BYRON, who played the nun "Sister Ruth" in the film "The "Black Narcissus" :twisted:
From the 1/21/09 Sunday Times



"[The Black Narcissus" is a] steamy tale of religious devotion and repressed sexuality in the Himalayas***, Sister Ruth is driven mad by lust, memorably abandoning habit and wimple :shock: and painting her lips blood red, renouncing her vows and declaring her love for the government agent David Farrar. His affections are reserved for Sister Clodagh (Deborah Kerr). The two women tussle on the convent bell tower and Sister Ruth plunges to her death. "

***411 Note: OMG, :lol: More of those hills/ mountains references!!!
__________________________________________________________________________
Hate to say it...but Fr. Saulo sounds like another middle-aged man projecting his own (religious) fantasy on to the blank slate that is Manders. That's a sin! ss) for him and for all the other inmates.



Ahhhh...If only I had 1/10th of Piktor's artistic talent right about now... ;) Yes, that's a hint, Piktor!!!


. mop-). SISTER ACT .mop-)

* the musical
*

Attachment:
so little space, so much time, so many converts.jpg


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Last edited by piktor on Sat Oct 30, 2010 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 8:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

stint7 wrote:
Michael wrote:
Oh Christ, just been reading through the pap on the 'other' site...what's is called...the JREF?
There, Candace Dempsey is considered an authority, a primary source...Come on!

Dempsey is a failed journalist that stayed at home after getting married and then while getting bored in married life set up a reader blog on the Seattle PI discussing such deep matters as cooking recipes and travel.

All from a woman that claims to speak Italian but doesn't...having always had to have used posters like Yummi or Finn to translate for her and without those rely on Google Translate, who attended no more then two hearings and who has plaguerised Frank to fill most of her book.


In addition to all the above...When Candace first started her blog; 'Italian Woman at the Table' it was just her eating at various Seattle Restaurants and writing a critique of how much she liked/disliked the menu.
Thus the descriptive title for Candace...'Food Blogger'

Although she would have one believe she was also a travel blogger, the extent of her knowledge of any travel at that time was limited to the best route in Seattle to drive between the Restaurants she visited.

In addition to the 'helpers' you mention, she made extensive use of Freelance Italian Interpreter and writer/Producer wanna bee Giulia Alagna to complete her novel like 'book', that as you note, the FOAKer groupies equate to the Bible for obvious reasons.

Giulia was utilized to help Candace understand basic Italian, attend the trial for some of the many, many days Candace missed, and to share with Candace information she gleaned from her PR Police approved close association with the Mellox Klan


Any decent journalist would maintain a professional distance from Curt Knox and Edda Mellas. It's no surprise to see Frank Sfarzo and Giulia Alagna sitting with the family. Giulia Alagna follows the family around like a puppy.
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Offline Michael

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Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

stint7 wrote:
Michael wrote:
Oh Christ, just been reading through the pap on the 'other' site...what's is called...the JREF?
There, Candace Dempsey is considered an authority, a primary source...Come on!

Dempsey is a failed journalist that stayed at home after getting married and then while getting bored in married life set up a reader blog on the Seattle PI discussing such deep matters as cooking recipes and travel.

All from a woman that claims to speak Italian but doesn't...having always had to have used posters like Yummi or Finn to translate for her and without those rely on Google Translate, who attended no more then two hearings and who has plaguerised Frank to fill most of her book.


In addition to all the above...When Candace first started her blog; 'Italian Woman at the Table' it was just her eating at various Seattle Restaurants and writing a critique of how much she liked/disliked the menu.
Thus the descriptive title for Candace...'Food Blogger'

Although she would have one believe she was also a travel blogger, the extent of her knowledge of any travel at that time was limited to the best route in Seattle to drive between the Restaurants she visited.

In addition to the 'helpers' you mention, she made extensive use of Freelance Italian Interpreter and writer/Producer wanna bee Giulia Alagna to complete her novel like 'book', that as you note, the FOAKer groupies equate to the Bible for obvious reasons.

Giulia was utilized to help Candace understand basic Italian, attend the trial for some of the many, many days Candace missed, and to share with Candace information she gleaned from her PR Police approved close association with the Mellox Klan


Well, to be fair to her she went on holiday to one or two places. But you're right, that doesn't make her a travel journalist. I've been to a few places myself, I could set up a blog tomorrow talking about the various places I've been and what I did. Some people might even find it interesting...but that wouldn't make me a journalist, much less a travel writer (as we understand them to be). She also cooks meatballs (which are probably very nice) so she wrote about that and other food recipes which are also maybe, perhaps...rather good. But I fail to see why this woman should suddenly be considered an authority on a murder trial. On what grounds?

It seems to me, the only grounds for this claim is that she's written a book. Just in the same way we should suddenly consider Mark Waterbury as a bloody good bloke because he has just written a book and because it's in a book, it's all true.

What's with this? I'll tell you..months ago Skep and I were being slated (by the FOA) as the accusation was that we were a) plotting to write a book on the case and b) only interested in the fame/profits from said book. The fact is, we never intended on writing a book and neither shall we, however...everyone ELSE seems to have rushed to write books. I don't know what's going on with these people, but it's not what Skep and I signed up for. For us, it was all about simply providing a place where people could discuss the case without interference...and a place for Meredith.

Let them publish their shite, in books (because if it's in a book it's true right?)...and choke on it.

The FACT is though, none of it is going to help Amanda, Raffaele or Meredith...or that forgotten bloke that is only remembered when people want to blame everything on him...yes...Rudy, that's the guy.

The idea that history is rewritten because someone has written a book and that book says so...those days are gone. Especially when today is about the cult of groupies writing books. I mean, what the fuck is it with that?

This is beyond post modernism...this requires a whole new name.

_________________
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THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

I don't think Amanda is a good actress, but she is surrounded by some gullibility. Hello, Faddah ..I can imagine the hue and cry if Michael or Skep had written a book. Madonna !!!

Love the pic, Piktor. I'm always struck by the *haminess* of Manders , hands clasped in prayer. Just so fake.

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Offline The Bard


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Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:46 pm

Posts: 2486

Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

piktor - "so little space, so much time, so many converts.jpg" - pure genius!!!!

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

The Machine wrote:
Michael wrote:
Meredith Kercher's murder is not "a really great story"
Hayden Panettiere's reaction to playing Amanda Knox is as tasteless as the movie itself, says Jenny McCartney.


THE TELEGRAPH


I'm pleased that Jenny McCartney has condemned the film so strongly and referred to Knox, Sollecito and Guede as murderers.



When I saw that the main characters of this tasteless, insensitive piece of doo doo seem to be Edda, Madison, Anita and Biff, the name Garfield Kennedy suddenly popped into my head. Is it possible that he is involved in some way as an advisor? I would not be surprised to learn that he and Bob Graham have sought to increase their profit in this horrible story. And since he is apparently "close" to the family.....

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Offline Michael

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Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
The Machine wrote:
Michael wrote:
Meredith Kercher's murder is not "a really great story"
Hayden Panettiere's reaction to playing Amanda Knox is as tasteless as the movie itself, says Jenny McCartney.


THE TELEGRAPH


I'm pleased that Jenny McCartney has condemned the film so strongly and referred to Knox, Sollecito and Guede as murderers.



When I saw that the main characters of this tasteless, insensitive piece of doo doo seem to be Edda, Madison, Anita and Biff, the name Garfield Kennedy suddenly popped into my head. Is it possible that he is involved in some way as an advisor? I would not be surprised to learn that he and Bob Graham have sought to increase their profit in this horrible story. And since he is apparently "close" to the family.....



Well, they've been a bit quiet lately...haven't they? ;)

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline stint7


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Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:07 pm

Posts: 1582

PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 10:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:


When I saw that the main characters of this tasteless, insensitive piece of doo doo seem to be Edda, Madison, Anita and Biff, the name Garfield Kennedy suddenly popped into my head. Is it possible that he is involved in some way as an advisor? I would not be surprised to learn that he and Bob Graham have sought to increase their profit in this horrible story. And since he is apparently "close" to the family.....


Our own Machine did another of his great truth squad follow ups on Bob Graham's previous 'Steve Moore' like misstatements, misrepresentations, overstatements, and assorted unadulterated pure BS with another great TJMK Article while back.

Report By Bob Graham In The Daily Express Close To Breaking New Record For Inaccuracy
Posted by The Machine


http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tj ... ecord_for/

(Article also includes nice comments from our own LReik and Skep among others)


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Offline The 411


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Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:49 pm

Posts: 1386

PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 10:41 pm   Post subject: There's "NUN" Better than PIKTOR!!   

piktor wrote:
The 411 wrote:
with the Bucket/Stint discussion....

Am I the only one baffled by Fr. Saulo and his thinking?

The man seems so deeply impressed with how "sincerely" Manders cites the prayers and does the readings. He sees *THIS* as evidence of her potential to be a nun? Yet Manders has no religious convictions whatsoever.

Hence, there is ONLY ONE CONCLUSION HERE!!! The real talent the Padre is witnessing is HER ACTING. Or maybe, at best her... ORATORY?

Padre: If "sounding sincere" while reciting and prayer makes one a good candidate for the nunnery.... rul-)

Why not just add these women to your list of women with "good nun potential"?
p-)) p-)) p-)) p-))
--Whoopi Goldberg
--Claudette Colbert
--Audrey Hepburn
--Julie Andrews ("How do you solve a problem like A-NITA? wh-) )
--SALLY FIELDS!!!!
--Ingrid Bergmen
--Loretta Young, etc., etc...

Or even better....English actress KATHLEEN BYRON, who played the nun "Sister Ruth" in the film "The "Black Narcissus" :twisted:
From the 1/21/09 Sunday Times



"[The Black Narcissus" is a] steamy tale of religious devotion and repressed sexuality in the Himalayas***, Sister Ruth is driven mad by lust, memorably abandoning habit and wimple :shock: and painting her lips blood red, renouncing her vows and declaring her love for the government agent David Farrar. His affections are reserved for Sister Clodagh (Deborah Kerr). The two women tussle on the convent bell tower and Sister Ruth plunges to her death. "

***411 Note: OMG, :lol: More of those hills/ mountains references!!!
__________________________________________________________________________
Hate to say it...but Fr. Saulo sounds like another middle-aged man projecting his own (religious) fantasy on to the blank slate that is Manders. That's a sin! ss) for him and for all the other inmates.



Ahhhh...If only I had 1/10th of Piktor's artistic talent right about now... ;) Yes, that's a hint, Piktor!!!


. mop-). SISTER ACT .mop-)

* the musical
*

Attachment:
so little space, so much time, so many converts.jpg


So little space, so much time, So many converts HAHAHA!!
:lol: What a great title!

Speaking of converts and followers...

Well, today I did some verrrrrry last-minute Halloween costume-shopping !
In one store, I found the most adorable animal masks in one of the bins.
Yes, I spotted one tiger mask next to one lion mask. Hey, I thought to myself: I can go as PIKTOR and/or CATNIP!!! Yay-) That would be the cat's pyjamas, wouldn't it?! But I was distracted by someone and then I ended up leaving and going to another store.

Later, I regretted not purchasing those masks.

Because, quite frankly, I wouldn't mind if someone forced the Piktor or Catnip mask on my face. Maybe some of their gifts would rub off on me?? mike mike

Piktor, I must repeat:
There is NUN better than you! (If Sally Fields only knew about this....I really think she'd be laughing, too!!)
Hallelujah!
We are truly blessed to have you and your special talent on Board. cl-)
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Offline Michael

Site Admin


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Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 10:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
The Machine wrote:
Michael wrote:
Meredith Kercher's murder is not "a really great story"
Hayden Panettiere's reaction to playing Amanda Knox is as tasteless as the movie itself, says Jenny McCartney.


THE TELEGRAPH


I'm pleased that Jenny McCartney has condemned the film so strongly and referred to Knox, Sollecito and Guede as murderers.



When I saw that the main characters of this tasteless, insensitive piece of doo doo seem to be Edda, Madison, Anita and Biff, the name Garfield Kennedy suddenly popped into my head. Is it possible that he is involved in some way as an advisor? I would not be surprised to learn that he and Bob Graham have sought to increase their profit in this horrible story. And since he is apparently "close" to the family.....


This is what I've said from the beginning...the character priority of the cast determines exactly where this story is going.

They don't even have someone to play Meredith and if they do, don't consider them important enough to even mention them.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline The Bard


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Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:46 pm

Posts: 2486

Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 11:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Michael wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
The Machine wrote:
Michael wrote:
Meredith Kercher's murder is not "a really great story"
Hayden Panettiere's reaction to playing Amanda Knox is as tasteless as the movie itself, says Jenny McCartney.


THE TELEGRAPH


I'm pleased that Jenny McCartney has condemned the film so strongly and referred to Knox, Sollecito and Guede as murderers.



When I saw that the main characters of this tasteless, insensitive piece of doo doo seem to be Edda, Madison, Anita and Biff, the name Garfield Kennedy suddenly popped into my head. Is it possible that he is involved in some way as an advisor? I would not be surprised to learn that he and Bob Graham have sought to increase their profit in this horrible story. And since he is apparently "close" to the family.....


This is what I've said from the beginning...the character priority of the cast determines exactly where this story is going.

They don't even have someone to play Meredith and if they do, don't consider them important enough to even mention them.


Brilliant piece by Machine - I hope it is being sent to the Editor of the Express. Worrying to see he is actually getting more involved, given his total lack of case knowledge. He comes from the Steve Moore school of media punditry:

1. Find something high profile that other people are making money from

2. Say something - anything - about it, even if it is total garbage

3. Get paid for it. Don't worry, no-one will check you got the facts straight, they just want something. Anything.


I don't know about you, but I think Meredith's life was worth more than this. If we were not monitoring this sort of ridiculous press article then it would just stand, unchallenged. Even if only a fraction of the readers of the article read about the errors, it is still a fraction less than swallowed it. It suits to media to keep the story controversial and have pundits shocking it back into life after the horse has been flogged to death. They don't give a damn about the truth, that much is becoming very clear as these articles appear again and again.

I am just glad that there is this quiet corner of the world where people do care about putting the story straight.

_________________
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Offline piktor


User avatar


Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:30 pm

Posts: 1081

PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 11:31 pm   Post subject: Re: There's "NUN" Better than PIKTOR!!   

The 411 wrote:

So little space, so much time, So many converts HAHAHA!!
:lol: What a great title!

Speaking of converts and followers...

Well, today I did some verrrrrry last-minute Halloween costume-shopping !
In one store, I found the most adorable animal masks in one of the bins.
Yes, I spotted one tiger mask next to one lion mask. Hey, I thought to myself: I can go as PIKTOR and/or CATNIP!!! Yay-) That would be the cat's pyjamas, wouldn't it?! But I was distracted by someone and then I ended up leaving and going to another store.

Later, I regretted not purchasing those masks.

Because, quite frankly, I wouldn't mind if someone forced the Piktor or Catnip mask on my face. Maybe some of their gifts would rub off on me?? mike mike

Piktor, I must repeat:
There is NUN better than you! (If Sally Fields only knew about this....I really think she'd be laughing, too!!)
Hallelujah!
We are truly blessed to have you and your special talent on Board. cl-)


I choked with laughter when I read your post, Fourelevenllina.
Your posts are some of the liveliest on the internetz. I correct myself: your posts are THE liveliest. They are an inspiration for merciless satire. Yay-)
I revised the illustration and it now has arid mountaintops, added to follow scrupulously surp-) after your well thought out imagery. b-(( hump-) b-((
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Offline The 411


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Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:49 pm

Posts: 1386

PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 11:55 pm   Post subject: Re: There's "NUN" Better than PIKTOR!!   

piktor wrote:

I choked with laughter when I read your post, Fourelevenllina.
Your posts are some of the liveliest on the internetz. I correct myself: your posts are THE liveliest. They are an inspiration for merciless satire. Yay-)
I revised the illustration and it now has arid mountaintops, added to follow scrupulously surp-) after your well thought out imagery. b-(( hump-) b-((


Thank you, Piktor!
At the risk of sounding like an Over-the-Top Mutual Admiration Society.... k-((
(but, hey, what's wrong with that?!)let me just state the obvious: Piktor's Parodies are Priceless! A Piktor picture...is worth...a thousand laughs!

On a more serious note...
Piktor, I was thinking of you yesterday while watching the news.
As you know, there is some really frightening, very worrisome large-scale violence going on in Mexico these days. ss)
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39863570/ns ... -americas/
We all hope things improve ASAP. Meantime, we hope you stay safe and out of harm's way.

CREATE ART and MUSIC-- NOT CONFLICT!!! pro-)
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Offline The 411


User avatar


Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:49 pm

Posts: 1386

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:52 am   Post subject: A PMF HALLOWEEN- Birthday Mystery!!   

Tomorrow, October 31 is HALLOWEEN, but... it is also the BIRTHDAY of some PMF Posters!!!

One of those people is... (drum roll, please...)

The Mistress of Mahjong!!...
The Guru of Gamesmanship!!... Mua-)
The Pasha of Posting...
PMF's OWN... H-9!



Happy Birthday, h-9!

If I could, I'd wag my tail 411 times in your honor!

Now part of the PMF mystery is that... we know h-9 has ALWAYS been extremely coy and evasive about revealing her age.

But I was determined to learn how old she is. So I applied Occam's Razor (ya know, in case she tried to "shave" off some years like Candace Dempsey has done). After careful analysis and rigorous critical thinking I have really been able to narrow down her age significantly ... I can now say with near-certainty that h-9 is somewhere between 9 and 90 years old. I'm positive.

While you work on pursuing that mystery...I must now ALSO reveal that h-9 is NOT THE ONLY PMF POSTER celebrating a birthday on Halloween! :shock: I have it on good authority that there are others! da-)) mul-)

I really wish I could tell y'all what I know, but I can't. n-(( nw)

Having been paid off by Deep Pockets (again!!!)to keep mum about this information, I am not at liberty to reveal this knowledge on PMF.

I have been sworn to strict omerta`! So...either a tipster will come forward to spill the beans, or the person/people whose birthday it is will confess, I mean -volunteer- this information. And then run off together to celebrate with h-9...in the hills, camping...with Clander.......!!?

huh-)

Meantime:

HAPPY HALLOWEEN to EVERYBODY here...and to Her Highness H-9
a Very Happy Birthday, oh ageless one!!
and HAPPY BIRTHDAY also to.......the very shy........xxxxxxxx
........xxxxxxxxxxx as well as...to . mul-)
_______________________________________________________________________
OK, now back to working on my Halloween costume....I've stolen my costume idea from RS and AK and I've decided to go as an abstract cat.....As RS would say...really "creazy."
(Sooooo KIDDING! I've found that anything REMOTELY related to those two
makes me.... tu-)) }
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Offline Solange305


Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:14 am

Posts: 604

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:24 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Happy birthday H9! That is so awesome! Congrats, you are officially another year wiser!
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Offline Catnip


User avatar


Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:08 am

Posts: 2997

Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:36 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

SomeAlibi wrote:
Having read Massei, I can't see the detail of where Meredith and Sophie split up on the way home that night. Can anyone tell me where they split?

Many thanks
SA



Micheli has it: Via del Roscetto


The Assize Court talks about the timing:

Amy remembers Meredith and Sophie leaving "right after 21:00" (p 36)

Sophie remembers "then they had seen a film; then Meredith and she had gone off before 21:00" (p 37 [24])

Quote:
She remembered that they had eaten pizza and an apple cake. She did not know when they had finished eating; perhaps an hour before leaving; and she indicated that they had left the house at around 20:45 pm. She said good-bye to Meredith about ten minutes later, at 20:55 pm. She remembered the time because she wanted to be home at 21:00 pm to see a television programme she was interested in. That evening, Meredith‚ did not have any appointment, she just said that she was tired‛. (pp 37-38 [p24 in the Italian version])




Micheli in the committal hearing for Amanda and Raffaele (and Rudy's fast-track trial judgment) mentions the location:


Quote:
"Anche la PURTON collocava intorno alle 21:00 l’ora in cui erano uscite assieme dalla casa delle altre ragazze, il 1 novembre (confermando di esservi giunta verso le 15:30, prima di MEREDITH): avevano camminato fino a Via del Roscetto, e là si erano separate dato che l’appartamento della PURTON era in una di quelle traverse. Per quanto la giovane ricordava, la ragazza uccisa non aveva palesato alcuna stranezza, salvo dirsi od apparire un po’ stanca a causa delle ore piccole fatte il giorno prima festeggiando Halloween." (p11)

Ms Purton also placed the time at which they exited the other girls' house together to around 21:00 (confirming to having arrived there around 15:30, prior to Meredith): they had walked up until Via del Roscetto, and there they had parted ways given that Ms Purton's apartment was in one of the cross-streets. As far as the young lady was able to recall, the victim had not shown signs of anything unusual, save for admitting or appearing a little tired due to celebrating Halloween into the wee small hours the day before.




Edited to add:
In the secondary sources:

Darkness Decending (p178): "Bontempi Street dovetails into Rose Street [=via del Roscetto] and then Wolf Street [=via Lupo]. Sophie Purton peeled off to go home leaving Meredith to complete her final journey home alone."

Angel Face (p37): "She and Sophie left together and split up on via Roscetto, each heading to her own house."

From Sophie's pre-trial testimony:
Quote:
... We [all] watched a DVD, called The Notebook, until 9 PM. Then Meredith and I left. We walked together up until via del Rossetto [sic]. I left her to go to my apartment in via del Lupo and she proceeded to go to her home. When we parted, she was tranquil [or: calm, unworried], except [for being] a bit tired because of the partying the previous night. (quoted in Sarzanini, p43)


Also, Micheli (p11) reports that Sophie's house in via Lupo is "barely two minutes' walk from the house on via della Pergola".



Edited to further add:

Just to clear up the confusion that Darkness Decending's street-name translation style may have created:

Via del Roscetto is named after Cesarino Rossetti, goldsmith, painter, scupltor, architect and friend of Raphael the painter. He came from a family of artists, and was nicknamed "Il Roscetto" from the colour of his hair. {Nowadays, he would probably have been nicknamed "Carrot" in England, or "Bluey" in Australia.} He designed the Santa Maria della Luce church at the end of via dei Priori. (Info from Sacchi de Angelis' Perugia Placenames, p79).

The road used to be called Via dell Ramerino ("Coppersmith Alley") from the artisans who worked there, and Via dei Servi because it led to the new Holy Mary Servants of Mary church (Santa Maria Nuova dei Servi di Maria). (p80)

Interestingly, in reference to via del Lupo ("Wolf Way"), Frezzini in the 1890s commented disparagingly: "were it not for being gilded by the first rays of the Orient [sun], it would have had the aspect of a veritable wolves' den" (from p82), i.e., dark and dingy.


Last edited by Catnip on Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:58 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Offline piktor


User avatar


Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:30 pm

Posts: 1081

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:48 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

. mop-) mop-) mop-) mop-) mop-) mop-) mop-) mop-) mop-) .

Attachment:
one chord, many disguises.jpg

. hbc) hbc) hbc) hbc) hbc) hbc) hbc) hbc)


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Offline Catnip


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Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:08 am

Posts: 2997

Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 2:04 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

The cleaning lady after the party is done is the most frightening person on Hallowe'en.
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Offline piktor


User avatar


Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:30 pm

Posts: 1081

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:03 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Catnip wrote:
The cleaning lady after the party is done is the most frightening person on Hallowe'en.


Attachment:
the mop barbarian.jpg

. mop-) .


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Offline capealadin


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Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:58 am

Posts: 4089

Highscores: 11

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:18 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Wishing you a Very Happy Birthday, H9. May this one be your best ever...

Piktor: Fantabulous!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

_________________
"You have been PERMANENTLY Banned!" - by .ORG eee-)
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Offline DJLawless


Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 5:47 am

Posts: 140

Location: Ohio USA

Highscores: 1

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:22 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

piktor wrote:
. mop-) mop-) mop-) mop-) mop-) mop-) mop-) mop-) mop-) .

Attachment:
one chord, many disguises.jpg

. hbc) hbc) hbc) hbc) hbc) hbc) hbc) hbc)



Happy Halloween yourself, oh esteemed Piktor. Thank you sincerely for sharing your awesome artistic talents with us.

This board is an absolutely wonderful tribute to Meredith Kercher.
cl-) cl-) cl-) cl-) cl-)

_________________
r-(( Rest in Peace Meredith Kercher r-((
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Offline TomM


User avatar


Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:28 pm

Posts: 582

Location: California

Highscores: 8

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 4:31 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

stilicho wrote:
DLW wrote:
stilicho wrote:

‘That's exactly what ran through my mind and doubtlessly through the minds of everyone listening to Knox too. It sounds like sheer desperation on her part to convince everyone that Meredith's door being closed or locked was a common occurrence whereas Filomena was correct in saying it was reason for alarm.
Locking that door was a blunder. It pointed directly to Knox as the only one responsible.’

You might be talking about two different actions. One was locking Meredith’s door after the murder. Two: trying to convince Filomena et al. that Meredith routinely locked her door. I might agree with Mander’s decision to lock the bedroom door. Leaving it unlocked would require AK in particular, to find the body first. Or would require Amanda to be away from the cottage before the discovery. Both with potentially bigger downfalls. This led to the complication as to how to react to the locked door, with all the strange things going on. With the postal police there unexpended, it wasn’t a big deal to either AK/RS. Amanda then tried to convince Filomena that it was no big deal in order to justify Amanda’s own lack of real concern, only her gentle increase awareness of things not being right. Amanda wanted Filomena’s initial reaction to be the same as hers. It didn’t work out, but maybe they thought it was worth the gamble. After the discovery, that’s when I think AK/RS reinvented their concern (reasoning) over the locked bedroom door. Even panic stricken, an easy explanation for how the crack got in the door. Or for vanity reasons to appear like they were involved. But the pair could never reconcile those two extreme positions. It was a giant red flag for anybody investigating this case.


I am discussing both actions. Locking the door was a mistake; arguing with Filomena about its significance was worse.

It's been some time since we discussed the locking of the door but that action could only have led investigators to someone living in the cottage. Alibis quickly eliminated everyone excepting Knox. When she enthusiastically inserted herself into the investigation, that only cemented her involvement in the minds of the police.

It's interesting that the groupies protest loudly about lack of motive for the murder and yet, when faced with a very obvious motive for locking the door, they ignore it in favour of wild speculation about someone else performing that action. As with so much else (including the luminol-revealed prints), there are common sense implications of locking the door that won't escape a judge or jury.

I have not read the previous discussion about the locking of the door, so forgive me if I repeat what has already been said. I find AK's story that the outside door was swinging wide open while Meredith's door was locked to be curious. What possible reason would a stranger to the dwelling have for locking the interior door? If delay in discovering the body is the reason, then why not block the exterior door, as well? Clearly, the person who locked Meredith's room had a set of keys and could well have locked the front door.
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Offline Emerald


User avatar


Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:53 am

Posts: 1706

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:26 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Isn't there statute of some kind in Italian Justice for RS to get an injunction against being portrayed in any way in the la_) film? It may be an American film, but it's being filmed in Italy.

Why would RS's attorneys allow this?
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Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:56 am   Post subject: ADMINISRATOR NOTE!   

Administrator Note:

For UK members. Just a reminder note that for the UK, the clocks went back last night. I've reset the standard board time to reflect this. However, you will also each have to reset the time yourselves via your User Control Panel under 'Board Preferences'.

Thank You

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline stilicho


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Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:24 am

Posts: 2492

Location: Western Canada

Highscores: 8

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 9:30 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

TomM wrote:
stilicho wrote:
DLW wrote:
stilicho wrote:

‘That's exactly what ran through my mind and doubtlessly through the minds of everyone listening to Knox too. It sounds like sheer desperation on her part to convince everyone that Meredith's door being closed or locked was a common occurrence whereas Filomena was correct in saying it was reason for alarm.
Locking that door was a blunder. It pointed directly to Knox as the only one responsible.’

You might be talking about two different actions. One was locking Meredith’s door after the murder. Two: trying to convince Filomena et al. that Meredith routinely locked her door. I might agree with Mander’s decision to lock the bedroom door. Leaving it unlocked would require AK in particular, to find the body first. Or would require Amanda to be away from the cottage before the discovery. Both with potentially bigger downfalls. This led to the complication as to how to react to the locked door, with all the strange things going on. With the postal police there unexpended, it wasn’t a big deal to either AK/RS. Amanda then tried to convince Filomena that it was no big deal in order to justify Amanda’s own lack of real concern, only her gentle increase awareness of things not being right. Amanda wanted Filomena’s initial reaction to be the same as hers. It didn’t work out, but maybe they thought it was worth the gamble. After the discovery, that’s when I think AK/RS reinvented their concern (reasoning) over the locked bedroom door. Even panic stricken, an easy explanation for how the crack got in the door. Or for vanity reasons to appear like they were involved. But the pair could never reconcile those two extreme positions. It was a giant red flag for anybody investigating this case.


I am discussing both actions. Locking the door was a mistake; arguing with Filomena about its significance was worse.

It's been some time since we discussed the locking of the door but that action could only have led investigators to someone living in the cottage. Alibis quickly eliminated everyone excepting Knox. When she enthusiastically inserted herself into the investigation, that only cemented her involvement in the minds of the police.

It's interesting that the groupies protest loudly about lack of motive for the murder and yet, when faced with a very obvious motive for locking the door, they ignore it in favour of wild speculation about someone else performing that action. As with so much else (including the luminol-revealed prints), there are common sense implications of locking the door that won't escape a judge or jury.

I have not read the previous discussion about the locking of the door, so forgive me if I repeat what has already been said. I find AK's story that the outside door was swinging wide open while Meredith's door was locked to be curious. What possible reason would a stranger to the dwelling have for locking the interior door? If delay in discovering the body is the reason, then why not block the exterior door, as well? Clearly, the person who locked Meredith's room had a set of keys and could well have locked the front door.


We talked about it for a while but it's not a big deal talking about it again.

The groupies have been steadfast in objecting to my parallel between having a body locked behind a door in your home and having one locked in the trunk of your car. I've been on a jury before and you can bet that I want to know why the only inhabitant of the house without an alibi knew ahead of time that the door was locked. And really did nothing about it even though at least three people told her that this was not normal.

Put that strange behaviour together with the non-burglary burglary and you're going to have a lot of explaining to do. "I was high" or "I was confused" doesn't cut it. As a juror, I really want to know why. The Massei Report echoes that by explaining that Knox had to know something more than what she admitted. She said that the door was locked when Meredith was in the UK or taking a shower and she knew that neither case was true.
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Offline mistercrunch


Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:43 pm

Posts: 160

Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:51 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

This Movie seems to be out of respect for the real victim. This is tasteless.
If it's filmed the Way i expect it to be, portaying a ruthless murderess as a victim of herself, i will Be shocked. AK is more than that, she is a Psychopath and everyone who is watching the Movie Suizid Know that. And the PR-Campaign should Be mentioned too.
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Offline mistercrunch


Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:43 pm

Posts: 160

Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:53 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

BTW...they are biting their nails off for Not being able to read this page. Please let this status as it is, i like this. They are getting nervous short before the appeal i guess, and that is for a good reason.
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Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 11:08 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Moore files lawsuit over termination
By Stan Parker

PEPPERDINE GRAPHIC

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline H9


User avatar


Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:37 am

Posts: 1716

Highscores: 161

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 11:12 am   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

http://www.pepperdine-graphic.com/mobil ... -1.2387693

Steve Moore might be out of a job right now, but at least his sudden termination from Pepperdine has given him a free mind and a free schedule. He's thinking about the future, and has more time to keep fighting to free Amanda Knox from the Italian jail where she could potentially spend the next 25 years of her life.
But amid the dreams for a future, Moore has also filed a wrongful termination lawsuit against Pepperdine University, claiming the University violated his First Amendment right to political speech with his dismissal.
Moore has said he sought truth— as well as justice— in his post-trial inquiry into the Amanda Knox case.

Jerry Derloshon, Pepperdine's executive director of public relations, said that the University disagrees wholeheartedly with Moore's characterization of the dismissal, but is unable to say more, due to legal restriction regarding personnel issues.

Moore is hoping that the reasons behind his termination will come out in the discovery process in the lawsuit: "If there is something else here, I'd love to know what it was," Moore said in a telephone interview.
Moore also said his is seeking vindication and monetary damages in excess of $25,000, although an exact number is not specified in the suit.

Moore said he's not filing suit to "get rich," but that in this process he's been hurt financially. Also, he wants some people to answer for what he calls "arbitrary" actions.
"I'm not trying to get rich off this; I'm trying to get people to realize what some people at Pepperdine are doing unilaterally," Moore said.


It is this void of discourse on tough issues that seems to be perpetuating the administration's reputation as lacking in transparency.

Moore's unexplained dismissal seems to be the latest in a series of events that have many on campus wondering of the administration, "Why did they do that?"

Silence in personnel issues is a pretty standard track for corporations, Derloshon said. He illustrated the point, saying when a network journalist called him for comment on Steve Moore's dismissal, the journalist began his conversation saying, "'So, I know that you're probably not allowed to say more than you've already said…'"

"I firmly believe my firing was arbitrary," he said a bit later in the interview. "But it didn't surprise me."
Moore said he'd seen the administration act in an arbitrary manner regarding employment issues, without explanation. But, as the California statute mandates, they didn't explain themselves.
Moore says the administration needs to answer some tough questions, because "they're getting away with it because nobody says anything."

Moore said he has come to love the school and what it stands for.

"What's happening to me is not Pepperdine," but, he said, "Harm will come unless something is done about it."
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Offline ttrroonniicc


Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:12 pm

Posts: 1073

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

h9A7wa9i1K wrote:
....

"I firmly believe my firing was arbitrary," he said a bit later in the interview. "But it didn't surprise me."

If it didn't surprise him when they fired him why did he get himself fired?
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Offline Yummi


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Location: Bunga-Bunga Republic

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Something must be done with this provider to bring this forum public again.

Their behaviour is intolerable.
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Offline bucketoftea


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Michael wrote:
Moore files lawsuit over termination
By Stan Parker

PEPPERDINE GRAPHIC


Since when is a clueless dingbat shouting the odds about a murder case that's none of his business, really, "political"?

When he describes his ideal city being composed of the best bits of his favourite places, where's the love for Seattle? The writing may be on the wall...
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Offline Catnip


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Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

h9A7wa9i1K wrote:

"I firmly believe my firing was arbitrary," he said a bit later in the interview. "But it didn't surprise me."


If it was arbitrary, it would have been a surprise.
If it was not a surprise, it was not arbitrary.

The ex-FBI agent is perhaps suggesting here that it was provoked?
A reverse persecution complex is a good tactic, in the circumstances.
It will reinforce the religious standing of whatever-it-is he thinks he is pursuing.

Luckily, there are no ex-Jesuits around to poke holes in his logic bubbles, so he will continue on a bit longer talking to reporters and trying to chase the publicity bandwagon.





The protective instinct is strong and deep.


Nine-year-old schoolgirl Annie Janatková went missing two weeks ago.
Search continues yesterday in Prague, shifting into forensics mode.

Grim task

[Lidovky] 30 October 2010


When the instinct arises in the middle-aged paunch crowd to protect a similar "little girl lost" named Amanda, it will seem "right" and therefore "god-given", which makes it even more right, and there will be no gainsaying it: any discussion about the evidence hinting at the contrary will be automatically denied and deemed abhorrent.

The strength of the fervour will not yield to stable, rational or unemotive thinking.
That was why Judge Heavey was so quick to project the same fervour onto the Italian legal system, and decry it, using whatever means necessary. Others have followed suite.

The conspiracy-theory is a natural outgrowth of this thinking, and it, too, will not be denied.

It's a sort of cancer, in a way, operating at the level of thought.

The recognition signals in the protective instinct mechanism have gotten their wires crossed. The paunchers are doing things without knowing what they are doing, so in a way they are sort of innocent. Not that that pardons the harm they are causing.

In the meantime, other wheels are turning...
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Offline Patzu


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

dm-) A scary Halloween video for Meredith...


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Offline Clander


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Yummi wrote:
Something must be done with this provider to bring this forum public again.

Their behaviour is intolerable.


Something is being done.
Two more days.
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Offline Catnip


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Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Clander wrote:
Yummi wrote:
Something must be done with this provider to bring this forum public again.

Their behaviour is intolerable.


Something is being done.
Two more days.


Thanks, everyone.
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Offline Catnip


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Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

SomeAlibi might be on to something.

The last part of Meredith's walk home that night might have been a shortcut through the parking lot (down the iron stairs, presumably), or the usual route past the basketball courts.

Either way, she would have had to have gone through the gate on the driveway.

And with A&R in the vicinity at the same time, and Rudy kebabing it around the place (he maintains) and toing-and-froing at the cottage, I can hear another piece of the puzzle sliding into place.

On the one hand, the Perugia city-centre is a small place, a hilltop, and everyone is near everyone, by definition. Proximity of time and place is going to be yet another coincidence.

On the other hand, how often are murders not proximate? Here this morning, a mother was fatally stabbed in her kitchen (husband and adult-son are in hospital recovering from their injuries; police are continuing their enquiries).
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Steve Moore CHOSE to immerse himself in this case. He took it on, as a BET. When told to desist, or he would be fired, he CHOSE to be fired. He has chosen his course of action, knowing he would be unemployed. This was a voluntary action, taken by Steve, and for Steve.

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Offline Catnip


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Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

The need for a macho-ness proof for an ex-FBI agents is a scary thing.
I predict his "proof" in this matter will be as robust as all his other "proof". ;)
He's left himself no other choice.

Scary monsters have flown away from this part of the world.

Happy Halloween everyone, where it still remains!

It is now All Saints here - time for a candle and a thought in prayer.
r-((
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Finally!!! pp-( This is the last part of AK's short story in Girlanda's opera prima. p-(((

*He gave me his iPod to listen to, because he said he understood what I was trying to say. He’s cold and soft between his fingers, and he’s connected to a black wire that runs up to the headphones-earmuffs and walking down the road it tickles my neck. In return, I gave him my camera. The plan is to exchange it again in a week’s time. This is an experiment to see if we’re able to understand each other.
I don’t know if I can stay that long without taking a picture. Is all very nice, but goes against my rules of doing things my way. His way is never to stop listening to the iPod unless it is absolutely necessary, like under the shower or in the case, when he is still playing himself. Whereas I have to keep the music on and do and see everything through it, even when I talk on the phone, even when I’m in lessons, even when I'm sleeping. All of it is music for grand piano. I feel stunned. Keeps on playing and playing.

Up to this moment it had been a difficult experiment for me. Meaningless. I observe things with a soundtrack in my head and I feel confused. Is nice, but it is all too much at once and it does not fit in. I try to imagine what things does he look at in silence. Probably he doesn’t need the iPod to replay music in his head, but perhaps finds it a bit disconcerting not to physically have it with him. Are his ears cold? Are his fingers dancing? I’m surprise to purposely blink the eyelids in front of things: click. The images get lost in my mind and merge with similar images, so I don’t longer know where one starts and where the other finishes, like the piano music in my ears.

The interesting thing is when my photos are concentrated on a single subject. Last fall, for example, I photographed the dead leaves. I wanted to print them all and throw them into the air in my room, in order to jump into the midst of my personal leaves. I loved those leaves for their colours, their shapes, their consistency. If I could photograph closely the snowflakes as they fall I would, because they are even more beautiful and intimate than leaves. Unfortunately my camera doesn’t have a powerful enough zoom, and it doesn’t snow much often.

I'm sipping a cup of masala chai with both hands, but I listen with one ear only. For these occasions, he gave me a pair of those small earphones that fit into the ear canal. His usual headphones, the big earmuffs, are smoldering my neck with their weight. He looks at them and scratches his head. "Come on then, take a picture," I say. He grabs the camera and points to the headphones. While fiddling with the focus, I suddenly feel uncomfortable, as if he was breathing on my neck instead of framing the lens. Finally he takes the photo, but immediately points the camera to my hands, which hold the steaming cup. This makes me even more uncomfortable, as if he was able to scrutinize me inside up to the photo that I also took of his own, of the hands.

Finally he looks at me again and smiles, perhaps because I follow the piano music by swinging my head. “I don’t live in the hostel,” he says.

“No?” I respond. I am surprised and relief on the whole.
“No,” he says. “I come to play piano.” I frown and he says to me “Stay like that!”

“Can you not just play in the rehearsals room in the music department?” I ask him while he photographs my wrinkled forehead.

“Yes,” he says. “But in there no one would hear it. The music is made to be listened. It belongs to the real world, to the people.”

“Wow, so you play intentionally for others?" I ask. He nods. "I too shoot pictures for others."

"Which others?" He asks.

“For you, if you like,” I said and I swallow a huge sip of hot masala chai. He looks at me like undecided whether to take a picture of me, like he wouldn’t know if he should or not. "For anyone who wants it" I add hastily.

His expression does not change. I wish I could photograph him. Instead I have my ears full of music, which transforms his immobility in movement. I see that inside he squirms, thinking of the music I listen to.

It is about having a good eye, be able to see what is extraordinary behind the ordinary. I admire so much those people who can physically show what others cannot see. Some manage it with colours, with dimensions, with distortions, with the angles, with the technique and inspiration of the event. Afterwards, what is good for them can be shared and can no longer be exchanged for being ordinary or undeserving of attention. There is no greater waste than to not pay attention and it is such a pity that beauty can’t always be seen everywhere, by whoever. It's a shame for both the images and the person who does not see it - especially for the person.

A large wooden door in an old brick building...

Rhetorical question –

Silent insecurity on creaking stairs –

Rays of sunshine-hands on a dark handrail, sliding down –

A hole in my heart, that follows-

The pit of my stomach, filling up –

A coat of paint, peels off -

I'm not trembling, but he is, and I think it should be the other way round. Instead no. Neither of us is calm. Discrepancy. I have the advantage to listen to the music that slips away, slowly, like a dress too large. Unfolds around me. He pulls the bag from my shoulder and disappears into a large closet. When he comes back, tells me to take off my headphones. I do – he’s turned on another music for piano that drops like rain through the speakers near the closet. “No rules are broken” he smiles, but his eyes are like a wrong note. I arrange my hands, uncertain. The music is like the rain drumming before a storm. I need to calm down, or for the music to adapt to the accelerated pace of my heart. “There is no need to look at me like that,” he says. “I will not ask you to do anything you don’t want to do.”

My face is hard, like a porcelain mask. I'm afraid that it might crack and so I still worry a lot. My lips move, but feel very hot and soft. “What do you want?” I ask.

He shrugs his shoulders. “I want to take your portrait.”
“ Like this as I am?”
“Like as you are.” He picks up my camera. “Make yourself comfortable.”

I get caught off guard by a sudden premonition. The truth of what might happen runs through me and once I’m over the surprise, I feel calmer. I stand still, fearless and he is looking at me. It is a slow dance and melancholic about this music; he is the spectator with sparkling binoculars, a spectral shadow. I see myself inside and behind the lens, I hear him making click and I look away.

While I undo my coat I wander around the small room. It's a bit pathetic - a room pretending to be a house. The setting is fitted with a stage. I pull out my coat and I think of the layers that I have to remove from me to become my mother. How many I got left before we get to be the same?

In one corner there is a sink with a small under cabinet. There is a small refrigerator and a mattress on the floor under the window. There is a desk and a chair – I lay the coat on the chair. On walls there are rows of hanging shelves with books on top, records, CDs, canned food, cereal boxes, folded clothes. There are no photos or mirrors.

Beyond the window, the sun is setting. I take off my shoes and climb up onto the mattress to look outside. I lean my cheek against the cold glass and I observe the colours by the psychedelic landscape that becomes inconspicuous as shadows grow. I await also that his shadow takes shape and wraps around me. This is what happens in my premonition. I can see the image of his face that appears next to mine.

I wait, but he doesn’t come. Placed my hands on hips, look out the window, stubborn, hopeful, all of a sudden insecure. I am not afraid. I am hesitant. Nothing happens. The clicks stopped. I make myself more and more little and I vanished inside. Before I turn back I begin to say, “I think...”.
“That we should go," he finishes.

He is sitting in front of me, stuck with a headset in one ear. Lays down my camera on the table, in between our hands. I take it and cradle it to my lap. Feels heavy, perhaps because of all the images it contains.

“And the photos?” I ask.

“An interesting experiment,” he replies.

“But do you want them?”

He lifts a shoulder. “I've taken them for you.”

“I’ll print them for you” I suggest. He still shrugs shoulders. "I will do the printing," I insist, and wait. Then finally, “When I was much younger,” I tell him, “one day I got on a bus because I wanted to run away.”

He raises his eyebrows and nods. His fingers gently tap on the table to the rhythm of the piano. Seems to me I hear it inside my head. I remember and even feel I miss it.

“Not because there were problems at home or because I had nowhere to go.”

“And then what did you do?” He asks me.
“Nothing,” I reply. “I wandered about for a while, I looked around, and I at the end called home from a pay phone to ask my father to come and pick me up from the other side of town.”

“And then?” He asks.
“I wanted to do something, even if it just meant getting on the bus. To be alone,” I respond. “I wanted something. Was searching for it.”

“And what is it you want?” He asks.
“What do you want?” I ask.
He doesn’t hesitate. “Music,” he says. “ Do you know what you want?”

His hand, so near, seem infinitely afar. If I tried to grab it, my hand would be stretching to the infinite and I will never find it. I want what I don’t have. I feel him when I watch his hands. What I don’t have, and that I never had, it’s everything. I feel too empty to raise my camera and photograph him. I suppress my instinct, my own feelings, I swallow them entirely and I feel them laying down unsettled in the stomach. His eyes are full of sympathy and understanding, full of melancholy. They drop down under the weight of vision.

He holds my hand and takes it to his ear, uses it like a caress to cover the sound. “Do know what you want?” He had asked. The question remains suspended in the air around us and he will not be able to hear the answer.

“Love," I respond silently.
“No,” I say out loudly.

Dead leaves ...

A rose that weeps –

Blinking eyelashes in the shadow of a goodbye –

Forgotten languages –

Handshakes –

Open palms with a thumb pointing at home –

So many eyes –

Days in the past –

Finger Painting –

Fragments of broken sentences –

Exhaustion -

I'm in the computer room in the art department. I look at his photos that run slow on the slideshow and in the background I’m listening to one of his music CD for piano. He never photographed himself, or anything else, just me. He said the pictures were for me. Now I would have very much like he said that they were for him.

Not everything that is pleasing is beautiful, and not everything that is beautiful is pleasing. The photos are a bit out of focus, but they are very beautiful. Part of me is glad that at least for a short period I appeared beautiful to his eyes. Another part is in tatters, because the photos are not for him, they are for me. Want to appear beautiful in your eyes, he tells me. It is not a pleasant feeling to realize that he knows more than me. And his, eyes?

My fingers hesitate on the print icon. My images are flashing one by one on the screen. When the music stops, I click. The printer produces the same noise like a dishwasher. I pick up the shiny paper sheets spitting out near me and I put them in a large manila envelope. I gather my things. He could have come but did not come.

I leave the building. It's windy. My hair is flying back with the edges of the coat. If I were to open the envelope, my photos would be scattered like leaves, but I would remain the same. Lost and fallen, but I'd still be here. This makes me feel better. I feel a bit lost, but less empty; nude but brave; light but anchored to the ground. I am not only an eye, but also a whole person from whom an image may be born. Despite everything, I am solid.

I lift my camera and snap photos of the rain that begins to fall.*
br-))
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Offline namwera51


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:30 pm

Posts: 13

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

A prayer in rememberance of Meridith seems like a good idea this weekend!
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Offline TomM


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Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:28 pm

Posts: 582

Location: California

Highscores: 8

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Michael wrote:
Moore files lawsuit over termination
By Stan Parker

PEPPERDINE GRAPHIC

Unless he has grounds other that violation of his "free speech rights" his suit is going nowhere since Pepperdine is not a governmental entity. He was an "at will" employee, so a good reason to fire him was not required.
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Offline Hammerite


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Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:46 pm

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Could someone can help me please on the time/hours AK was interviewed by the police on 4 November 2007.

This was the day that she was brought to the Cottage and had a type of meltdown when she was viewing the drawer containing the kitchen knives.

It appears that RS dropped her off at the police station at c.11.30 am. Does anyone know the time she went to the cottage and did she subsequently return to the Questura? And if so at what time did she leave the Questura?

If anyone knows about this or where it can be found I would be most grateful.
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Offline The 411


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:30 pm   Post subject: Fighting Words..   

Michael wrote:
Moore files lawsuit over termination
By Stan Parker

PEPPERDINE GRAPHIC



What exactly do these words mean, exactly???

s-(( What's happening to me is not Pepperdine," but, he said, "Harm will come unless something is done about it." eee-)

Dems are fightin' words...What is he threatening?
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Offline capealadin


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Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:58 am

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Highscores: 11

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

You are very much appreciated, Jools.

Note to self: Do not kill the messenger :)

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Offline ttrroonniicc


Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:12 pm

Posts: 1073

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:38 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Just reading the prior story to the above one (Pepperdine News):

"But Moore, a retired special agent with the FBI, was prompted by his wife to take a closer look at the case. He drew upon his 25 years of experience as a federal investigator to pursue a personal investigation, examining hard evidence, weeding out rumor, and finally arriving at a conclusion: that Knox and Sollecito were both innocent."

Moore didn't examine the existing evidence (that presented at trial). He examined what was created by Knox campaign/PR machine. Moore didn't examine any evidence. He hasn't successfully argued any of the evidence because he hasn't encountered it. Because he has no counter to it. He hasn't put forward any counter to the hard evidence that led to the conviction of Knox/Sollecito (as her defenders consider his story to be the same).
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Offline piktor


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Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:30 pm

Posts: 1081

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:45 pm   Post subject: Re: Fighting Words..   

The 411 wrote:
Michael wrote:
Moore files lawsuit over termination
By Stan Parker

PEPPERDINE GRAPHIC



What exactly do these words mean, exactly???

s-(( What's happening to me is not Pepperdine," but, he said, "Harm will come unless something is done about it." eee-)

Dems are fightin' words...What is he threatening?


First, Mr. Moore will invade Italy and rescue Saint Anita. ser-)

Second, at Pepperdine, Moore will cause some pain, of the chatty, vacuous kind. b-((

En garde! fen-)
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

ttrroonniicc wrote:
Just reading the prior story to the above one (Pepperdine News):

"But Moore, a retired special agent with the FBI, was prompted by his wife to take a closer look at the case. He drew upon his 25 years of experience as a federal investigator to pursue a personal investigation, examining hard evidence, weeding out rumor, and finally arriving at a conclusion: that Knox and Sollecito were both innocent."

Moore didn't examine the existing evidence (that presented at trial). He examined what was created by Knox campaign/PR machine. Moore didn't examine any evidence. He hasn't successfully argued any of the evidence because he hasn't encountered it. Because he has no counter to it. He hasn't put forward any counter to the hard evidence that led to the conviction of Knox/Sollecito (as her defenders consider his story to be the same).


Steve Moore clearly got his misinformation from the family and the FOA. I suspect he spent a long time examining the reams of blank copier paper given to him by Linda Byron and he literally filled in the blanks.
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Offline The 411


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Posts: 1386

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 4:12 pm   Post subject: Rules for Jools   

capealadin wrote:
You are very much appreciated, Jools.



Grazie, JOOLS--e BRAVISSIMA!! th-)

The only capolavoro that I see here ... is YOUR TRANSLATION WORK!!! tt-)

Che lavoraccio! It was a dirty job, mop-) but someone had to do it! And once again, you rose to the occasion!!

But, now I'm concerned about you!

Get lots of fresh air and sunshine, supplement with antioxidants. Take Maalox as needed for any residual nausea.

But most importantly, go fill your mind with the works of some of the literature's great authors-- in order to purge all that AK verbal detritus and decaying garbage from your system!! You should feel better in a day or two.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 4:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

TomM wrote:
Michael wrote:
Moore files lawsuit over termination
By Stan Parker

PEPPERDINE GRAPHIC

Unless he has grounds other that violation of his "free speech rights" his suit is going nowhere since Pepperdine is not a governmental entity. He was an "at will" employee, so a good reason to fire him was not required.


This is one of the most confused and confusing articles I have ever read on any subject. I think this Stan Parker has a future with the West Seattle Herald under Steve Shay. He seems to think that Pepperdine is "guilty" of lack of transparency when in fact, as the school's legal counsel explains, Pepperdine is bound by laws of privacy from commenting on certain issues, including recent decisions regarding tenure.

Moore also makes a ludicrous statement about his firing being in contradiction with Pepperdine's mission statement. The mission statement refers to its mission as an institution of higher learning; it has nothing to do with Moore's extracurricular pursuit of his "truth" with regard to Meredith Kercher's murder. Moore's position with the university had nothing to do with its core academic mission; he was a security officer, not a physics professor. What a joke!

Indeed, Tom, if this is his only beef, he has not got a case.

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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 4:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
TomM wrote:
Michael wrote:
Moore files lawsuit over termination
By Stan Parker

PEPPERDINE GRAPHIC

Unless he has grounds other that violation of his "free speech rights" his suit is going nowhere since Pepperdine is not a governmental entity. He was an "at will" employee, so a good reason to fire him was not required.


This is one of the most confused and confusing articles I have ever read on any subject. I think this Stan Parker has a future with the West Seattle Herald under Steve Shay. He seems to think that Pepperdine is "guilty" of lack of transparency when in fact, as the school's legal counsel explains, Pepperdine is bound by laws of privacy from commenting on certain issues, including recent decisions regarding tenure.

Moore also makes a ludicrous statement about his firing being in contradiction with Pepperdine's mission statement. The mission statement refers to its mission as an institution of higher learning; it has nothing to do with Moore's extracurricular pursuit of his "truth" with regard to Meredith Kercher's murder. Moore's position with the university had nothing to do with its core academic mission; he was a security officer, not a physics professor. What a joke!

Indeed, Tom, if this is his only beef, he has not got a case.


It seems that Steve Moore is taking legal advice from the South African Mystic Meg Lisa J Gordon.
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Offline Michael

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Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 4:57 pm   Post subject: ADMINISTRATOR NOTE!   

Administrator Note:

Hello everyone, just a note on PMF's status. As most of you know we were essentially shut down by our hosts on wednesday. This was because PMF was causing mayhem on their server. PMF's daily average bandwidth is 2 GB, only very rarely going above 4 GB. For reasons I don't quite understand, on Tuesday our bandwidth spiked to a massive 26.93 GB and on Wednesday to 19.79 GB. The culprit for most of this could be traced back to one particular IP address.

With some help from Clander, I'm trying to ensure this doesn't happen again before opening up the main discussion forum to guests once again. Currently, I see no reason why I can't do that tomorrow or even later today.

Thank You

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline Nonno_Max


Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:36 pm

Posts: 2

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 4:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

In the sentence that included "Moore, a retired special agent with the FBI ....drew upon his 25 years of experience as a federal investigator" there are potentially misleading overtones, and the repeated description of Mr Moore as a "retired special agent" may mislead those not familiar with the structure of law enforcement in the United States. Disregarding those people who are employed in a civilian capacity, every man and woman recruited and accepted as a "sworn" police officer in the FBI becomes a "special agent". In this context the use of the adjective "special" does not indicate of itself that the agent has been promoted within the FBI or has skills beyond the excellent basic training given at the FBI National Academy in Quantico, Virginia. Equally the use of the adjective "federal" does not afford any significance, as the FBI is a federal organisation. For all I know Mr Moore was one of the FBI's ace investigators and has a superb track record as a detective. However the FBI is a large organisation with many needs, so many "special agents" may spend much and possibly even the larger part of their service doing other things besides investigation in the sense of detective work. If, say, a "retired London police constable" were to make pronouncements on a current case, it would not have the same cachet as "retired FBI special agent" but might it not amount to the almost the same thing? Essentially I'm saying one should not assume too much about anyone's current abilities just because of a past job title.
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Offline Hammerite


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Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:46 pm

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

TomM wrote:
Michael wrote:
Moore files lawsuit over termination
By Stan Parker

PEPPERDINE GRAPHIC

Unless he has grounds other that violation of his "free speech rights" his suit is going nowhere since Pepperdine is not a governmental entity. He was an "at will" employee, so a good reason to fire him was not required.


Hello Tom,

Don’t know about USA Employee/Employer relationships but on this side of the pond Pepperdine would probably defend their actions (among other fronts) on possible damage to the Institution via Vicarious Liability due to public defamation of various Italian law enforcement agencies by its employee (SM). They would no doubt throw in an “actions bringing the Employer into disrepute” along with the ubiquitous “gotcha” dismissal clause in their employment contract.

It would also depend on the nature of the Employment Contract ie. one year renewable of “fixed term” for a specific period. In any case he would require four years uninterrupted service before he would qualify for a “contract of indefinite duration (CID)”

The mention of a minimum claim of $25,000 (est. 3 months pay?) in expected damages suggests that he was releasable on three months’ notice and is probably looking/hoping for an additional punitive sum for “hurt feelings”.

Would have thought though that he had already received a number of oral warnings over his choice of neck ties anyway! :)

H
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Offline piktor


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Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:30 pm

Posts: 1081

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:09 pm   Post subject: Re: Rules for Jools   

The 411 wrote:
capealadin wrote:
You are very much appreciated, Jools.



Grazie, JOOLS--e BRAVISSIMA!! th-)

The only capolavoro that I see here ... is YOUR TRANSLATION WORK!!! tt-)

Che lavoraccio! It was a dirty job, mop-) but someone had to do it! And once again, you rose to the occasion!!

But, now I'm concerned about you!

Get lots of fresh air and sunshine, supplement with antioxidants. Take Maalox as needed for any residual nausea.


Gracias, Jools!


Attachment:
halloween noir.jpg


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Offline DLW


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:41 pm

Posts: 623

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

According to some of the lawyers involved in the appeal process, they are looking (seeking) for at least 12 hearings during the appeals process: Libero-Newa

‘In recent days, while all the lawyers involved in the appeal process for former sweethearts met with the President of the Assize Court of Appeals. All agreed that it will take at least a dozen hearings before a new sentence. The defenses of young people will focus on the request for a super scientific expertise to analyze again the alleged murder weapon and the time of the death of Meredith Kercher, together with traces of DNA that implicates Amanda and Raffaele. The defense asked the acquittal of two young men. The prosecution however, that did not like the granting of extenuating circumstances in the first instance, asks for their life in prison.’

Michael thanks for all your help in resolving these forum problems.
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Offline Emerald


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Exactly WHAT does Steve Moore think he can do to free Amanda? Anything he says or does in this case could only be an insult to his his employer who has International Studies program with Italy.
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Offline SomeAlibi


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

I hope everyone has a good Halloween. We will be reflective tomorrow. I hope this piece will help you in that reflection and give you a feeling of confidence. This is part of what happened to me today. Much more will follow in due course, in about three or four days time.

SA


I walk the journey to the cottage from where Meredith and Sophie parted ways at the Via Del Lupo. Time from there to the cottage is 5 minutes at a leisurely pace. I video the journey for proof. As I finish, I decide to walk up Via Scortici with the wall of the basketball court to my left, just to prove to myself that it isn’t what sane people would normally do (they go round the basketball court on the stairs of the Via Della Pergola which is why Amanda saw Rudy, practising on the basketball court, daily). Managing not to get spread against the wall by a slowly passing car which honks at me for my patent stupidity, I come to the bottom corner of Piazza Grimana by the news-stand. The entrance to Corso Garibaldi, Raffaele’s road, is five metres away.

I turn round to look at the entrance to Piazza Grimana and see the figure of a man on crutches with shoulder-length white grey hair poking out from the bottom of a striped bobble hat walking away from me and towards the steps. Is it? I cross quickly and go round the top of the basketball court, along the pavement of Via Pinturicchio trying to look down to see if I can identify him. If it's who I think it is, I haven't been able to find him in previous days.

The man is dressed in a white and blue ski jacket and moves purposefully, even with the crutches. He goes to the steps of Via Della Pergola and heads down towards the cottage. But then he does a right and disappears into Via Melo which is half way down the steps and leads to an area of public garden. I go down after him, down the steps, and turn into Via Melo too. I try to take a picture but inadvertently engage video mode. That has to go quickly – I need to catch him.

I walk past a woman and then overtake him. As I do, I look back at him naturally as if just with a friendly passing nod. I allow my ‘spontaneous’ surprise to stop me.

“Mr Curatolo?” I say, in my best very English sounding Italian. He looks at me in a friendly way. His eyes are bright, unbothered, looking straight at me. He furrows his eyebrows minutely at me.

“Curatolo” he says with a pronunciation which is different from mine but in ways in which I’d never be able to explain. “Yes, I’m Curatolo” he says in Italian.

His voice is soft, clear, his diction precise, also unbothered, and he looks at me calmly.

I smile at him and nod, mostly to myself. I size him up for a couple of seconds. I reach out to shake his hand which he does so unhesitatingly, taking if from the crutch at his side. As I draw close to him, I hate myself for doing it, but I use an old trick a policeman taught me and breath in deeply through mouth and nose. It looks like a normal inhalation, which of course it is, but I’m smelling him. There isn’t the slightest wiff of alcohol or smoke about him, not from today or last night, completely corroborating the precision of his speech.

My spoken Italian, worse than my understood, will now let me down but I will try in Italian and English combined. He replies only in Italian.

“Thank you,” I say, shaking his hand, “Meredith Kercher; what you saw – so important.” I point to my eyes as I do so.

“Ah, Meredith Kercher,” he replies, understanding my action and nods. “Are you a friend?” he asks.

Well that’s a complex one. “Yes, in a way”, I reply, waggling my hand from side to side in the universal language of ‘kind of’.

“Ah, I see. That is a good thing,” he replies.

“Thank you,” I say again, patting my chest with the flat of my hand. “Many people say thank you. Many people.”

He nods.

“It is my pleasure,” he says in that calm voice again. Then he shrugs with those crutches of his but in a very measured way. “I saw what I saw” he says simply.

I look him straight in the eyes throughout the whole conversation. He doesn’t once break eye contact back – never - and I particularly note it when he says those final words. I look at him some more and I nod again.

“I know you did,” I say.

But this time I really do know it, with certainty. And since Raffaele and Amanda never said they went to the basketball court on the previous night and did what Curatolo saw them doing, I know when he saw them too.

“For you, sir,” I say and give him a twenty euro note to help him through today.

I ask if I might possibly take a quick picture, just to prove it happened, and he graciously says yes. I take a single one and then I shake his hand once more. I pat him on the back and smile a last time.

And then I say a final thank you and goodbye. I haven’t got the Italian to talk to him further but more than that, I want him to know that sometimes people say thank you and mean it without wanting anything else.

I walk off back towards Piazza Grimana and out into a little sunshine on an otherwise grey day as the bells start to chime out one o’clock.

Seeing the three disco buses last night after 11pm helped, about what happened that night in the square. But this meeting helped me more. I’ve dealt with more liars than most people have had hot breakfasts: I know the deeply credible ones, the squirming ones, I know the lies of drug addicts and thieves and other types more innumerable than I care to mention. He’s none of these things whatsoever. He is calm, measured, collected and together, softly spoken; a man with dignity even if he is down on his luck.

Curatolo saw what he saw, and now, as I start walking with a smile on my face, I know he did too.



Image

_________________
What it is is spin lent credence because it's from the mouth of a lawyer. We've seen how much gravitas they can carry merely by saying something is or is not so when often they are speaking as much rubbish as anyone else.


Last edited by SomeAlibi on Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline stilicho


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Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:24 am

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Location: Western Canada

Highscores: 8

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Jools wrote:
Finally!!! pp-( This is the last part of AK's short story in Girlanda's opera prima. p-(((

*He gave me his iPod to listen to, because he said he understood what I was trying to say. He’s cold and soft between his fingers, and he’s connected to a black wire that runs up to the headphones-earmuffs and walking down the road it tickles my neck. In return, I gave him my camera. The plan is to exchange it again in a week’s time. This is an experiment to see if we’re able to understand each other.
I don’t know if I can stay that long without taking a picture. Is all very nice, but goes against my rules of doing things my way. His way is never to stop listening to the iPod unless it is absolutely necessary, like under the shower or in the case, when he is still playing himself.

....

br-))


At least Knox managed to complete a "story" without featuring a sexual assault or murder. Before my retinas burned out and I lost several more brain cells, I did notice a peculiar Knox motif. She doesn't "say" things but is "trying to say". Her common theme of confusion comes up again. And, of course, she writes about doing things her way.

She should spend more time reading and less time writing. I don't know what it is about this woman that she just can't shut up.
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Offline norbertc


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Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:16 am

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Location: France

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

stilicho wrote:
We talked about it for a while but it's not a big deal talking about it again.

The groupies have been steadfast in objecting to my parallel between having a body locked behind a door in your home and having one locked in the trunk of your car. I've been on a jury before and you can bet that I want to know why the only inhabitant of the house without an alibi knew ahead of time that the door was locked. And really did nothing about it even though at least three people told her that this was not normal.

Put that strange behaviour together with the non-burglary burglary and you're going to have a lot of explaining to do. "I was high" or "I was confused" doesn't cut it. As a juror, I really want to know why. The Massei Report echoes that by explaining that Knox had to know something more than what she admitted. She said that the door was locked when Meredith was in the UK or taking a shower and she knew that neither case was true.


Exactly.

Plus we have these facts (from the Massei report):

- the 12:07 pm "test call" to Meredith's English subscriber line only;

- Knox's email stating that she was "panicked" because Meredith didn't respond to her knocks on her door ... but then expressing zero "panic" to the Postal Police when they arrive unexpectedly; and not mentioning the door to Romanelli;

- the agitated phone call by Knox to her mother before the door was opened;

- Knox and Sollecito remaining distant and "out of possible vision range" once the door was finally opened - conduct that only makes sense if "Amanda and Raffaele already knew what was beyond the door".

Game, set, and match.

---------------

EDIT to SA: It just dawned on me what you posted. Am amazed and very moved.

---------------


Last edited by norbertc on Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Hammerite


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Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:46 pm

Posts: 517

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Well done SA. You are the man. cl-) cl-) cl-)

We all wait with bated breath for your future adventures but this will certainly be a hard act to follow. A virtual group hug to you from all genuine PMF members.

H
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Thanks, SA. You brought tears to my eyes. And you write so much better than a certain would-be writer and wannabee whose prose has been intruding of late.

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Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point; on le sait en mille choses.
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Offline The Bard


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Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

SA...you brought tears to my eyes too. I can't say more. Tonight of all nights, when Meredith is in our thoughts. Thank you.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:48 pm   Post subject: Re: ADMINISTRATOR NOTE!   

Michael wrote:
Administrator Note:

Hello everyone, just a note on PMF's status. As most of you know we were essentially shut down by our hosts on wednesday. This was because PMF was causing mayhem on their server. PMF's daily average bandwidth is 2 GB, only very rarely going above 4 GB. For reasons I don't quite understand, on Tuesday our bandwidth spiked to a massive 26.93 GB and on Wednesday to 19.79 GB. The culprit for most of this could be traced back to one particular IP address.

With some help from Clander, I'm trying to ensure this doesn't happen again before opening up the main discussion forum to guests once again. Currently, I see no reason why I can't do that tomorrow or even later today.

Thank You



About that one particular IP address: when you have the simple truth on your side, you don't need to do shit like that.

I'm off to light three candles for Meredith Kercher.

Thanks, everyone, for all you do in her memory.

_________________
Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point; on le sait en mille choses.
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Offline stint7


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

The Bard wrote:
SA...you brought tears to my eyes too. I can't say more. Tonight of all nights, when Meredith is in our thoughts. Thank you.


Me Too !!!

From bottom of my heart, while thinking of how very much all this adds to our thoughts tonight of Meredith...

THANK YOU, Some Alibi


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Offline Solange305


Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:14 am

Posts: 604

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

SA, I am so happy. The insight that you and Thoughtful have brought to us from Perugia is absolutely awesome. I had no idea you were going, what a pleasant surprise. Im glad Mr. Curatolo seems to be doing well, thank you for thanking him on our behalf
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Offline Fly by Night


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:09 pm

Posts: 1014

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:00 pm   Post subject: Re: ADMINISTRATOR NOTE!   

Michael wrote:
Administrator Note:

Hello everyone, just a note on PMF's status. As most of you know we were essentially shut down by our hosts on wednesday. This was because PMF was causing mayhem on their server. PMF's daily average bandwidth is 2 GB, only very rarely going above 4 GB. For reasons I don't quite understand, on Tuesday our bandwidth spiked to a massive 26.93 GB and on Wednesday to 19.79 GB. The culprit for most of this could be traced back to one particular IP address.

With some help from Clander, I'm trying to ensure this doesn't happen again before opening up the main discussion forum to guests once again. Currently, I see no reason why I can't do that tomorrow or even later today.

Thank You


Interesting, although it's very easy to see why some people can't handle honest and open discussion; they've got too much to lose.
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Offline Fly by Night


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:09 pm

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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

SomeAlibi wrote:
I hope everyone has a good Halloween. We will be reflective tomorrow. I hope this piece will help you in that reflection and give you a feeling of confidence. This is part of what happened to me today. Much more will follow in due course, in about three or four days time.


Simply stunning, SA - reflective tomorrow, indeed.

Thanks so much!
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 844

Location: New York

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

SomeAlibi wrote:
As I finish, I decide to walk up Via Scortici with the wall of the basketball court to my left, just to prove to myself that it isn’t what sane people would normally do (they go round the basketball court on the stairs of the Via Della Pergola which is why Amanda saw Rudy, practising on the basketball court, daily).


Hi SA!

Agreed - that short steep street above the intersection has no footpath and it is very busy - a death trap especially at night.

My guess is Sollecito would have walked it alone, back to his place, the girls maybe not - they could go 1/2 up the stairs and then across the park to the school.

I still wonder why (or if) Meredith didnt walk down the steel stairs and across after leaving Sophie. It is brightly lit and 100 meters shorter than the stone steps route.

Big puzzle.

Peter Quennell
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Offline bedelia


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Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:12 am

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Location: New York

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Thank you for sharing that SomeAlibi. You've brought us all with you to Perugia on a significant anniversary with your post.
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Offline Fiona


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Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:54 am

Posts: 1080

Highscores: 7

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Hello everyone: there seems to have been a great deal happening while I have been away. Far too much to catch up on. it feels like. But on reading just recent posts I am amazed by SA's trip in particular: thank you for that post and I look forward to further insights.

It appears that the board has been subjected to an attack of some kind too. I do not know the background to that but it is strange that anyone would do such a thing: I am very glad to find they have not succeeded in closing it down: it would have been horrible to come back to no PMF!!
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Offline Earthling


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Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:25 pm

Posts: 504

Location: USA

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Fly by Night wrote:
SomeAlibi wrote:
I hope everyone has a good Halloween. We will be reflective tomorrow. I hope this piece will help you in that reflection and give you a feeling of confidence. This is part of what happened to me today. Much more will follow in due course, in about three or four days time.


Simply stunning, SA - reflective tomorrow, indeed.

Thanks so much!

Seconded. Well done, SA, by which I mean both well-played and well-written.

My eyes were misting up as I read and especially as I looked at that picture of that soulful man.

I believe he is what he seems: just a GOOD PERSON, who wanted to tell the truth as he saw it.

(and incidentally, doesn't seek any glory or profit for it. how refreshing.)

Thank you SA!!!! Great job.

And Happy Halloween, everyone!!! (a holiday that Meredith loved, btw).

And Happy Birthday, H9!!!

mul-)
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Offline Jools


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

From today's Corriere dell Umbria:

“After three years we missed Mez more than ever.”

The family of the student killed in Perugia hasn’t found peace yet.

Condolences. The Kercher family has stated that on the anniversary of Meredith’s death they will be remembering her on her grave.

"We missed Meredith more than ever and after three years continues to be equally difficult to understand the 'why' of such as it happened to her”. This was said by the Kercher family on the eve of the third anniversary of the murder of the English student, killed in Perugia on the night the first and second of November 2007. Words contained in a statement issued yesterday through their lawyer Francesco Maresca who, together with colleague Serena Perna, represent Mez’s family. “We can only hope that soon we be able to draw a line on the various happenings and go forward solely concentrating on the memory of Meredith,” affirmed again the Kercher family who live around London. "We are sure [remark the Kerchers] that all her friends will remember her on this anniversary each one in their own way in private. We commemorate her going to visit her grave, bring her flowers and spend some time with her.”

“I join the family in the memory of Mez, [comment from lawyer Maresca] I’m continuing to support with full confidence in the Italian justice system shortly few days before the start of the next proceedings, I’m convinced that the truth arrived at in first instance will be confirmed in order to render justice for such horrible death to a young girl.”

For the murder of Meredith Kercher were convicted to 26 and 25 years in prison, her at the time, American housemate Amanda Knox and the former boyfriend of the latter Raffaele Sollecito, their appeal process will begin on November 24. Also Rudy Guede, serving 16 years in prison already convicted with the fast-track procedure in the first and second instance. The16 December this year is the appointed date for examination by the Supreme Court of the appeal action presented by his defense. The three are all detainees. Knox, Sollecito and Guede they proclaimed to be extraneous to the crime.

The house where the murder was committed, released from seizure for some time, is the cottage in Via della Pergola, close to the center of Perugia and other students are living there now. For a long time the house was visited by a continuous “pilgrimage” of curious onlookers, as well as acquaintances of the young English girl killed. At this moment there are no known initiatives by the university to remember Meredith, who came to Perugia to study and had attended her classes always with superior study.

For sure the girl's parents are not wrong in believing that everyone who knew her will devote a thought to her cruelly broken life.
http://www.corrieredellumbria.it/news.asp?id=39
rip)


Last edited by Jools on Sun Oct 31, 2010 9:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Tara


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Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

Posts: 1010

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Fly by Night wrote:
SomeAlibi wrote:
I hope everyone has a good Halloween. We will be reflective tomorrow. I hope this piece will help you in that reflection and give you a feeling of confidence. This is part of what happened to me today. Much more will follow in due course, in about three or four days time.


Simply stunning, SA - reflective tomorrow, indeed.

Thanks so much!


Dear Some Alibi,

Amazing and wonderful. Many thanks for your outstanding effort at this important and thought provoking time. Bravo!

Anxiously awaiting more...

_________________
“If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything” ~Mark Twain~
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

“I join the family in the memory of Mez, [comment from lawyer Maresca] I’m continuing to support with full confidence in the Italian justice system shortly few days before the start of the next proceedings, I’m convinced that the truth arrived at in first instance will be confirmed in order to render justice for such horrible death to a young girl.”

Thanks for the translation, Jools.

_________________
Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point; on le sait en mille choses.
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Offline Clander


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Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:26 am

Posts: 855

Location: Rome

Highscores: 77

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:39 pm   Post subject: Re: ADMINISTRATOR NOTE!   

Michael wrote:
Administrator Note:
Currently, I see no reason why I can't do that tomorrow or even later today.


I sent you an email just now before reading your post.
After going through all the latest stats I concluded in my email: "I see no reasons why you cannot reopen the forum to guests even tonight." ;)

GO ! GO ! GO ! Michael :D

P.S.

Amazing post SA !!!
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Offline Hammerite


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Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:46 pm

Posts: 517

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Thanks, SA. You brought tears to my eyes. And you write so much better than a certain would-be writer and wannabee whose prose has been intruding of late.


Indeed Skep,

Must admit I was agog when I read the post first and may I point out here that with the passing of years it takes a lot to agog me.

Firstly the surprise that SA was actually in Perugia and especially at this most significant of times in dear Meredith’s calendar. RIP.

Secondly the good fortune of SA to come across Mr. Curatolo and the sensitive yet productive nature of the exchange despite “Our Man in Perugia’s” limited command of Italian.

Thirdly it cannot be overlooked that the quality of the prose by SA was up there with the best of the “professional” story tellers and novelists. I will be pleased to see a book in dear Meredith’s honour from the pen of SA at some time in the future.

H

ETA I suspect that SA would have made it his business to meet Mr Curatolo before he left Perugia anyway.
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Offline Jools


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:58 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

BRAVO SA!

Is so very kind of you to share your beautifully told encounter with Curatolo. Sei Grande!

Thank you. hugz-)
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Offline H9


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Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:37 am

Posts: 1716

Highscores: 161

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 9:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Amazing post SA... how weird to read both that and the translation provided by Jools in the same sitting, it's like entering the twilight zone. Thanks to you both for timely posts reminding us why we are here, a crazy murderess who's presence was testified to by Mr C. What a lovely photo actually, SA. And, welcome back Fiona!

TY for Birthday wishes and also according to 411 there are other posters who share this as a birthday so happy birthday to them and prayers and best wishes for All Saints Day for all who value justice and truth.
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Offline tjt


Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:20 am

Posts: 30

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 9:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Beautifully expressed, SA.
Thank you.
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Offline Earthling


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Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:25 pm

Posts: 504

Location: USA

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 9:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
“I join the family in the memory of Mez, [comment from lawyer Maresca] I’m continuing to support with full confidence in the Italian justice system shortly few days before the start of the next proceedings, I’m convinced that the truth arrived at in first instance will be confirmed in order to render justice for such horrible death to a young girl.”

Thanks for the translation, Jools.

Second that. hugz-)
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Offline Viv


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Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:28 am

Posts: 105

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 9:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Many thanks to Jools for your heroic translation of ... (I can't think of a suitable description). Above and beyond any call of duty.

And thank you, too, for your account of meeting Mr. Curatolo, SA. I loved reading it. When I saw the mention of blistered blisters, after your earlier allusion to mysterious weekend doings, I did wonder if you were planning a walk around a hilltop town. I'm so glad you did, and really appreciate your post.

Thinking of the Kercher family r-((
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Offline mortytoad


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Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:38 pm

Posts: 335

Location: Seattle, Washington

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Wow, SomeAlib. Just wow.


And thank you , Jools, for the translation. The Kerchers will be in my thoughts these next few days.
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Offline guermantes

Links & Gallery Moderator


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Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:49 am

Posts: 4854

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:14 pm   Post subject: Re: A PMF HALLOWEEN- Birthday Mystery!!   

The 411 wrote:
Happy Birthday, h-9!

Now part of the PMF mystery is that... we know h-9 has ALWAYS been extremely coy and evasive about revealing her age.

But I was determined to learn how old she is. So I applied Occam's Razor (ya know, in case she tried to "shave" off some years like Candace Dempsey has done). After careful analysis and rigorous critical thinking I have really been able to narrow down her age significantly ... I can now say with near-certainty that h-9 is somewhere between 9 and 90 years old. I'm positive.


Is it really your Birthday today, h9? I thought it was one of 411's jokes!

It's still not too late, so I'm going to unwrap a Bacio Perugina for you!

Attachment:
Baci-Perugina.jpg


And the message inside the wrapper says.... May I have your attention for a moment please .... PMF crowd cheers wildly.....

DRUMROLL .... band-)

Oh my God, I can't believe it!!! Isn't this just TOO MUCH of a coincidence??? The message printed on a tiny note says:

"Never trust a woman who tells you her real age; a woman who tells you that would tell you anything."
~Oscar Wilde~

[I sincerely hope Hammerite would approve this message penned by his famous compatriot as the Quote of the Day.]

Of course, we have always known that you, h9, are rather good at keeping the secret .... of ....of .... your real age! ;) :)

I'm finishing with a doodle. It's not exactly Amanda's Peace-Sign-in a-Heart, but looks more like a Broken Heart. Hmmmm. If you are about to break someone's heart, make sure to destroy all those secret files that reveal ..... that reveal .... your age!

Attachment:
Perugina Heart.jpg


HAPPY BIRTHDAY, h9!

mul-)

P.S. A woman can keep one secret - the secret of her age
~Voltaire~


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
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Offline The Bard


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Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:46 pm

Posts: 2486

Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Whose IP address was it Michael? You telling?

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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

The Bard wrote:
Whose IP address was it Michael? You telling?


I think it's safe to assume that this person works in the IT industry and has a track record of trying to suppress the truth.
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Offline ttrroonniicc


Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:12 pm

Posts: 1073

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

The Machine wrote:
The Bard wrote:
Whose IP address was it Michael? You telling?


I think it's safe to assume that this person works in the IT industry and has a track record of trying to suppress the truth.


Chris Mellas instigated a DoS (Denial of Service) attack to bring down this forum?

How clever.

A denial-of-service attack (DoS attack) or distributed denial-of-service attack (DDoS attack) is an attempt to make a computer resource unavailable to its intended users. Although the means to carry out, motives for, and targets of a DoS attack may vary, it generally consists of the concerted efforts of a person or people to prevent an Internet site or service from functioning efficiently or at all, temporarily or indefinitely. Perpetrators of DoS attacks typically target sites or services hosted on high-profile web servers such as banks, credit card payment gateways, and even root nameservers. The term is generally used with regards to computer networks, but is not limited to this field, for example, it is also used in reference to CPU resource management.[1] There are two general forms of DoS attacks: those that crash services and those that flood services.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial-of-service_attack

One common method of attack involves saturating the target machine with external communications requests, such that it cannot respond to legitimate traffic, or responds so slowly as to be rendered effectively unavailable. In general terms, DoS attacks are implemented by either forcing the targeted computer(s) to reset, or consuming its resources so that it can no longer provide its intended service or obstructing the communication media between the intended users and the victim so that they can no longer communicate adequately.
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Offline The Bard


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Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:46 pm

Posts: 2486

Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 11:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

ttrroonniicc wrote:
The Machine wrote:
The Bard wrote:
Whose IP address was it Michael? You telling?


I think it's safe to assume that this person works in the IT industry and has a track record of trying to suppress the truth.


Chris Mellas instigated a DoS (Denial of Service) attack to bring down this forum?

How clever.

A denial-of-service attack (DoS attack) or distributed denial-of-service attack (DDoS attack) is an attempt to make a computer resource unavailable to its intended users. Although the means to carry out, motives for, and targets of a DoS attack may vary, it generally consists of the concerted efforts of a person or people to prevent an Internet site or service from functioning efficiently or at all, temporarily or indefinitely. Perpetrators of DoS attacks typically target sites or services hosted on high-profile web servers such as banks, credit card payment gateways, and even root nameservers. The term is generally used with regards to computer networks, but is not limited to this field, for example, it is also used in reference to CPU resource management.[1] There are two general forms of DoS attacks: those that crash services and those that flood services.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial-of-service_attack



But why on earth would Amanda Knoxes family want the truth suppressed on the anniversary of Meredith's last day on earth? Why, they should want to honour her memory, and let the truth be discussed openly. Unless...unless they have something to hide of course...

Now I wonder what that might be? The truth?

How very interesting...It speaks volumes about the case, right there doesn't it.

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Offline The Bard


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Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:46 pm

Posts: 2486

Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 11:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XX. MAIN DISCUSSION, OCT 28 -   

Michael, I assume you couldn't possibly comment... ;)

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