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XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 - AUGUST 19, 10

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Offline Popper


Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:36 am

Posts: 266

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:35 pm   Post subject: Re: Numbers   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:

Watch out, Tom. That kind of talk can get you expelled or expatriated or ejected or whatever. You may have to take up exile somewhere, like that third-world backwater known as Italy. That country didn't even really invent pasta, turns out. They stole it from the Chinese! Anyway, if you wish to remain a citizen of good standing in the USA (if you are one!), then I suggest a prominent display of patriotism, something like adhesive stars and stripes.:)


This has nothing to do with the Perugia murder but pasta dates back to Arabs, Etruscans, Greeks and Romans, much before Marco Polo went to China. The fact it was imported from China by Marco Polo is a legend created in America, even though MP wrote he had seen something similar in his China travels. Legend often becomes reality/belief in the absence of better info and with "good PR".

It is a bit like the legend - which could be believed by many in the absence of this good website - that there is no evidence whatsoever to convict Amanda Knox or the legend/belief that Shakespeare was an original writer (eg Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet was copied straight from the story of Pyramus and Thisbe in Ovid's the Metamorphoses - and this is not the only case).


Last edited by Popper on Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline SomeAlibi


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Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:23 pm

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Highscores: 7

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Earl Grey wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:

I say, Bilko, if you must know, one addresses an Earl as Lord. And were Mary H to yield to his Lordship's advances and proposals (but not to his propositions, mind you), then she would have to be addressed as Lady!
However, I fear that you have rightly divined that dear Mary's heart belongs to two simply delightful chaps with whom she shares much in common! Very common! Why, I daresay they all deserve one another. Ménage à trois? But wait! Let's not forget LondonJohn. Have you not noticed that he may put everyone else to sleep, but not our Mary. Now that is true devotion!


Yes-- yes -- oh, yes -- Lady Mary. It has such a ring to it. It certainly suits her.




25 & 26 Stretch Chambers
Round the back of the Barista Stand
Store Street
London
WC1E 1AK


Dear Lord Grey,

Re: Project Tinkerbell

Thank you for your letter of the 12th inst., in which you instructed Alibi, Lye and Bluster in the matter of your impending nuptials to Ms Mary H aka Project Tinkerbell. May I speak for the entire staff here when I say that your lordship is a pioneer in matters amatory and you have left us all quite speechless in our regard of your situation.

In re the same, I am grateful for your lordship's confirmation that you had not sampled the No.2 Mushroom Tea consignment in which we had the honour of defending Grey Enterprises against the joint action by HM Revenue & Customs and The Southampton Happy Daze Treatment Centre. If I may be so indelicate, may I take this opportunity to remind your Lordship that your account with us is due settlement in regards the expense claims for i) secure transporation provided to those members of HMRC who inspected the consignment at close quarters and ii) the bill for professional services from Dr Sigmund Mocio who convinced Officer Trepanner that he was indeed not a Plum-Headed Parakeet and should under no circumstances attempt to fly down from the shipping container upon which he was perched.

At the same time, I regret to inform you that matters regarding the successful negotiation of a pre-nuptial agreement with Ms H. in respect of your lordship's estates and the 1973 Mater's Settlement For Dinkums Will Trust have proved somewhat vexing;

I had, of course, travelled, at your instruction, to Seattle to secure the same and met with the future Lady Gray and her representative. However I am sorry to relate that the meeting seemed marred by some social misunderstandings and perhaps a lack of mutual terminology. Those representing Ms Gray seemed to take great exception to the fact that I declined to join them in a celebratory "Three Wheel Blow-Out" cocktail on the basis that I had only just had breakfast and that, regardless, the fumes were condensing on my reading glasses making the working environment quite uncondusive. The attorney offered me an alternative which in their quaint vernacular I believe she called a "Stuck Up Limey Bastard" but it was a little hard to hear her as she had her forehead on her desk and was talking directly into a stack of envelopes which she appeared to be making ready for the affixing of postage stamps by the liberal application of a small pool of spittle.

I must say, your dearly intended was quite delightful and read through the terms of the "prenup" most attentively, all the while entertaining us with the utterance of a series of bon mots which I believe are distinctly local. When I questioned her on their meaning, she enquired if I had ever been to Kismiaz but I informed her that I was Church of England and sadly unversed in the Jewish festivals.

At this point, her attorney muttered "Breakfast?" in a bemused voice but before I realised that she was merely catching up with my previous statement I responded that I had said that I had had my breakfast, had she? Then suspecting my mistake, I begged her pardon if I had had mistaken what she had said to have had a conotation than it had not had, or that she had meant it to have had imparted unless of course I was in error and she had had intended it through what she had stated in the manner she had. She enquired if "the three of you are trying to ring my bell?" to which I responded I was a fan of campanology, certainly, to which she replied that she could tell by the way I walked. I merely relay it as it happened...

Terms were proceeding quite well until we came to the conditions that your Lordship felt might ease the future Lady Grey's passage into English society. I had showed her the pictures of the estate stables and said that she would be instructed in the equestrian arts but on seeing the riding instructors' picture, Ms H. pointed at their jodhpurs and said "who are these jackboot, tight trousered somovbitches?". The ensuing explanation took some time as did reducing the temperature when Ms H. mistook a reference to your Lordship's fondness "for all matters equine" for something related to a certain oriental book of flexible education.

Unfortunately our last misunderstanding may take even longer to resolve. Ms H. asked what honourific might be due to her following your marriage. She said she had expressed her excitement at marrying the "Duke of Earl" to her friends at the weekly branch meeting of "Tourette Patriots for Freedom". I explained, of course, that your Lordship's position was not that of a Dukedom but nevertheless your Lordship was indeed an Earl and therefore a Lord which should make it clear, inter alia, that you were not the "Duke of Earl". She seemed to follow this explanation well enough, counting on her fingers with her tongue wedged charmingly between her dainty teeth but it must be said that both of us were somewhat distracted by her attorney singing the lyrics to the eponymous ditty by Gene Chandler while trying to insert a handful of ice-cubes into the clock on her mantlepiece.

Ms H. then asked if this meant whether she would be a Lady. I responded that indeed it did but only once the marriage was complete and that people might also refer to her as a Countness but not to her face. It was at this point, I am sorry to relate that she vaulted the desk and punched me squarely in the face.

In the circumstances I am sure that you will appreciate that I await your Lordship's instruction before taking matters further.


Yours sincerely

S.Alibi


p.s. I should also relay the Orient Express is off for the honeymoon. She informs me that she "don't do no railroads".

_________________
What it is is spin lent credence because it's from the mouth of a lawyer. We've seen how much gravitas they can carry merely by saying something is or is not so when often they are speaking as much rubbish as anyone else.


Last edited by SomeAlibi on Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:53 am, edited 11 times in total.
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Offline stint7


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Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:07 pm

Posts: 1582

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Made a quick morning surf of "another" Forum

Could not resist sharing a few 'gems'.
All these are *verbatim* from the not even finished last (most recent) page
Ain't it great to be here with our hard working Moderators, and sensible posters
Tried to organize, but *not summarize*. Everything is verbatim parts of posts. except (2) exclamations of mine denoted by %-----%
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

1)CAN YOU BELIEVE some posters are *still* so absolutely un informed about the ever so obvious elements of the case....Examples:

A) I'm already aware of a number of reasons to be skeptical that the knife retreived from the boyfriend's home was used to attack the poor victim in this case. I'm wondering if I've recently learned of another...
I know that the victim was stabbed a number of times. But that the knife from the kitchen is not compatible with at least some of the wounds % recently ??%

B) The prosecution wanted Knox for the crime.
They tried to get Sollecito to admit that Knox wasn't with him so they could charge Knox. When Sollecito kept giving Knox an alibi they got Knox to imagine a scenario.
% HUH ?? when Raffie *stopped* providing alibi, Patrick was slandered; JEEEEZ %


2) Of Course, tear down and denigrate the dreaded TRANSLATIONS:

A) If Massei's followers are mired in a swamp of untenable speculation, it is because he has brought them there.

B) I have been trying to explain to several posters on various boards why the Massei report actually helped convince me of Innocence.

C) This is a good example of how absurdly speculative the judge's opinions are.


3) Some rare injections of A VOICE OF REASON

A) From a typical FOAKer
You got to remember, Knox did have an alibi.
From a voice of reason
What is it?

B) From a rare voice of reason:
You can try and spin it all you want to. The bottom line is they LIED.
The tired non answer type reply from FOAKer:
That's not evidence hat they were in the murder room holding a knife. (sp)


4) And then the ever present REASONS for not even trying to discuss anything

A) All the witnesses are not credible at all, it astounds me they were taken seriousely …(sp)

B) Hi, I'm new and believe in Raffaele's and Amanda's innocence. I apologize for my non perfect english


5) Finally, from PROFESSOR wanna-bee....a "Loooong" lecture

Definition of alibi.........++snipped a Looooong BORE

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

% Remember, *all* this from today's *one* page %
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2310

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

ViaDellaPergola has posted a video about the Massei report on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pK-00uCoXQw
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Offline stint7


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

The Machine wrote:
ViaDellaPergola has posted a video about the Massei report on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pK-00uCoXQw


That is a *very* well done short, respectful, accurate and informative production (IMHO)
Add my applause to the Translators, and to the producer of the clip.

In case you missed them, Via Della Pergola has previously produced excellent clips on Micheli report, Kercher Family, and a moving tribute to Meredith
http://www.youtube.com/user/ViaDellaPergola
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Offline The 411


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Posts: 1386

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:30 pm   Post subject: Re: Summer news   

Catnip wrote:
A nice touch:

La Nazione reports the Giornale dell'Umbria reports that Amanda's cell summer, the third in that series, is spent playing the guitar, reading books in Italian, writing. The Radicali*, who visited her in prison last Sunday, thought Amanda looked thin. She wore a pair of trousers with "Seattle" written on them.

"On the walls of her cell, which she shares with another American sentenced for drugs, Amanda has stuck up adhesive stars and stripes."

"Stars-and-stripes cell: Third prison summer for Amanda"
Nazione 17 August 2010

? Radicali: a liberationist political movement: [Radicali]; they did a August holidays prison-inspection blitz [Summer in Prison] between 13-15 August, to show solidarity with the "pentitential community".



Additional translation from the last paragraph from Catnip's "Nazione" article about Amanda:

"What's more, the girl, who has now spent her third Ferragosto [NDR: Italian summer holiday, 15 August] seems once again to have taken up ("riallacciato" } with Raffaele Sollecito, her ex-boyfriend.
She has "resumed a personal letter correspondence"with Sollecito, in prison for 25 years, also sentenced for the Meredith murder."

____________________________________________________________________________________________
OT:
Speaking of the Italian Radical Party... I have a memory from years ago in Italy, one summer night, at a time when Marco Pannella (founder of the Radical Party) was carrying out one of his many well-publicized hunger strikes against.... well, I don't actually remember what the cause was. But, all I remember he was very passionate about his protest! s-((

Anyway, Pannella's face seemed to be on Italian TV and in the newspapers, on a daily basis. The man seemed to grow weaker, (yet curiously, NOT thinner)...with each passing day of his hunger strike.

One evening my boyfriend and I dined at a restaurant in Rome, and finished our meal just before 11 PM. Taking a postprandial passeggiata through the narrow streets we looked ahead and both spotted a distinctive looking white-haired gentleman, walking towards us, with two companions.

We both stopped in our tracks, stared at him and then looked back at each other :...."Could that be....???....."That really looks like....." "YES!! Isn't that....Marco Pannella?"

Sure enough, It WAS renowned hunger-striker politician Marco Pannella with two or three companions by his side, verrrrry quietly entering a small out-of-the way trattoria for a little...late night clandestine 'breaking of the fast." Once inside the trattoria, we could hear him being greeted with a warm and enthusiastic welcome, as a (Radical) returning "regular"to the restaurant.

Can anyone really blame him? In Italy, it's very hard to have la passione politica-- senza pasti. (i.e., without meals). Quando a Roma vai....

ser-)

Semo ricchi de volonta'.
core mio, core mio,
la speranza nun costa gnente,
quanta gente cia' tanti sordi
e l'amore no!
e stamo mejo noi,
che nun magnamo mai. :lol:


P.S. Don't attempt to GOOGLE TRANSLATE the above without Yummi or Clander's assistance !!
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Offline Popper


Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:36 am

Posts: 266

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Fast Pete wrote:
1) Does anyone know in what part of the house on Garibaldi Sollecito's apartment was located? I am looking at my shots (not all posted) and seem to be seeing six apartments, three on each floor, back and front. Is there a floor plan anywhere?
....


I think it was on the ground floor.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:15 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

The Machine wrote:
ViaDellaPergola has posted a video about the Massei report on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pK-00uCoXQw



I'll just embed that for you ;)



_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

That's so great Michael !! Love the clicking of the typewriters (computers) and the applause.!! In the background, I,m sure I could hear &/*&&### jealous screams from Looongjohn....

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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

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Location: New York

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Popper wrote:
Fast Pete wrote:
1) Does anyone know in what part of the house on Garibaldi Sollecito's apartment was located? I am looking at my shots (not all posted) and seem to be seeing six apartments, three on each floor, back and front. Is there a floor plan anywhere?
....


I think it was on the ground floor.


Wow Popper. That surprised me. The ground floor front is narrow on each side of the stairwell, rather dark, and it would get some street noise with windows and/or shutters open in the summer. Maybe Sollecito was at the back. There might have been a slight view down from there. Behind is a modern institute, a part of the university.

I always wondered why AK chose the middle of the three bedrooms. In the report she notes she was right opposite the french doors to the balcony which let in a lot of light. They'd give a nice enough view, sorta. One of five ways to break into the house that all would have been way easier than Filomena's window.
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Offline lauowolf


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Bolint says:
"As no claim of receiving email or other interaction is known from Meredith that evening, it is probably safe to say that she did not use the internet that night.
And I find this a bit undermining Massei's reconstruction. In it she was not sleeping."

Ah, having a college kid with computer, I can report what she does, for what it's worth.
If you are reading and studying, it can be good *not* to open your computer.
(Multi-tasking is a bit of a myth, especially if you are really working on something.)
The whole social networking thing takes up so much time that "just checking" can take half an hour, or an hour of your study time.
So, if you have serious intentions for the evening, you read, study, whatever, first, and check out people's twitters or facebook later, if you still have the energy/time before bed.
Not having computer usage for me would seem to argue that she had not yet gone to bed, since I would expect her to touch base with family and all at the end of her day.
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Offline lauowolf


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

SA: "Ms H. then asked if this meant whether she would be a Lady. I responded that indeed it did"

Yeah, but in name only, of course.
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Offline stint7


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Fast Pete wrote:
I always wondered why AK chose the middle of the three bedrooms. In the report she notes she was right opposite the french doors to the balcony which let in a lot of light. They'd give a nice enough view, sorta. One of five ways to break into the house that all would have been way easier than Filomena's window.


Hi Pete

Did Amanda arrive as a renter early enough to have the choice ??

(I hesitate to post reference for below, but will if you need it and you twist my arm ;-))

Upon her arrival in town, Amanda had settled into a house on Via Pergola already occupied by three other women, also in their 20s. Two were Italian. The third, Meredith Kercher, was London-born, a reserved but popular University of Leeds student who hoped to become a teacher. In her work habits, Meredith was diligent and methodical. “Every night she came home like a good little girl and studied,” Amanda would later say.

Meredith had arrived in August under the auspices of the European Union’s Erasmus
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Offline stilicho


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

nicki wrote:
stilicho wrote:
I know that TM and Pete are always looking for fresh articles. I wonder if DriveByDoc or nicki or someone knows a pathologist who might be willing to explain how time of death works and how it's presented in court, judged upon, and so forth. That's an article I'd really like to read.

I don't want to read advocacy positions or even necessarily the experts who appeared in court on behalf of either the accused or the prosecution and the plaintiffs.

I understand the piece that Michael kindly posted but really it's the first Google entry under "stomach contents forensic pathology".

Do you understand why I want something readable but also explanatory as to the various time of death determination techniques?

Hi Stil,
don't know how much this may clear your doubts, however when attempting to determine TOD-which is mostly approximate, forensics evaluate:
-frigor, livor and rigor mortis-subjected to environmental conditions
-stomach content, which only indicates that TOD cannot have taken place before a certain time, since even if digestion time usually spans between 3-4 hours time, presence of undigested food has been found after 7-8 after last meal. So let's say Mr X has been seen having dinner at 7 pm, the body was found at 100 am, and the stomach was empty, one can state with good approximation that the murder took place around 11 pm. Unfortunately situations are not aways so clear-cut.

Study of insects colonizing cadavers has recently been very useful in order to help with more accurate TOD-see Prof Introna's work re Calliphora Vomitaria-Incidentally, Prof Introna was defense consultant.

Sorry about not been able to be more exahustive but I have very limited Internet access where I am right now.
Will be happy to answer your PM in the next few days, should you be interested in pursuing the matter further
Best, Nicki


Thanks for the additional information. It's useful to have doubts especially as the ToD determination is an approximation. I have seen Prof Introna's credentials on some of the links I've read so it's not as though he isn't an expert. It's odd that a scientist of his calibre would give the impression in a courtroom that the stomach contents are so precise when they really aren't.
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Offline stilicho


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

stint7 wrote:
B) I have been trying to explain to several posters on various boards why the Massei report actually helped convince me of Innocence.


I recognise that one instantly: "Hi Rose!"

This is the hallmark of the conspiraloon and you can see it all over the web. The conspiracist joins a discussion with the appearances of 'fairness and balance'. They participate in criticism of the nutters until a level of trust and accommodation is gained.

Then they 'discover' a document/film/report that convinces them utterly that aliens inhabit the centre of the earth, the moon landings were faked, 9/11 was orchestrated by Dick Cheney, and that Bigfoot is real.

In Rose's case it's the Massei Report of all things. It couldn't even be something convincing such as a horoscope or her palm-reader.
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Hi, Stint. Amanda rented before Meredith, Ilrc, and had the choice of bedrooms before Meredith. I also was a little surprised, and that's why the memory sticks.

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Offline stint7


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

capealadin wrote:
Hi, Stint. Amanda rented before Meredith, Ilrc, and had the choice of bedrooms before Meredith. I also was a little surprised, and that's why the memory sticks.


OK, thanks Cape

Then I will cite with pleasure the source of that inaccuracy I quoted to Pete above
http://www.vanityfair.com/contributors/judy-bachrach


I 'shoulda' known better h-)) dis-))
1) Fast Pete has my long time admiration for rarely (if ever) getting a fact wrong
2) Ms Bachrach in Vanity Fair rarely got one right
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Offline stilicho


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

stint7 wrote:
A) All the witnesses are not credible at all, it astounds me they were taken seriousely …(sp)


I was thinking about this one too, stint. It's quite one thing to argue that one witness was coached/paid off/a liar/a publicity-seeker/etc. But in this case there are three witnesses to entirely different aspects of the case (the scream, the furtive early riser, the gate-watchers). That's an awful lot of creative coaching/lying/etc going on by the police!

On the other hand, to believe that Knox and Sollecito were not lying, you have to invent stories about them misremembering, denied food and water, beaten into submission, and being so fucking high on dope that they just blacked out entirely for a period of almost half a day.

sh-))
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Offline stilicho


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

stilicho wrote:
stint7 wrote:
A) All the witnesses are not credible at all, it astounds me they were taken seriousely …(sp)

...misremembering...


My favourite use of the term 'misremember' is from the testimony of ROGER CLEMENS during US congressional hearings on performance-enhancing drug use in baseball.

"Andy Pettitte is my friend. He was my friend before this. He will be my friend after this and again. I think Andy has misheard," Clemens said. "I think he misremembers."
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

stilicho wrote:
stint7 wrote:
B) I have been trying to explain to several posters on various boards why the Massei report actually helped convince me of Innocence.


I recognise that one instantly: "Hi Rose!"

This is the hallmark of the conspiraloon and you can see it all over the web. The conspiracist joins a discussion with the appearances of 'fairness and balance'. They participate in criticism of the nutters until a level of trust and accommodation is gained.

Then they 'discover' a document/film/report that convinces them utterly that aliens inhabit the centre of the earth, the moon landings were faked, 9/11 was orchestrated by Dick Cheney, and that Bigfoot is real.

In Rose's case it's the Massei Report of all things. It couldn't even be something convincing such as a horoscope or her palm-reader.


London John joined PMF pretending to be a "firm guilter" with the intention of "changing his mind" and declaring that he thought Knox and Sollecito are innocent. Unfortunately, for London John, he never got the opportunity to complete his road-to-Damascus conversion because he was kicked into touch. When he reappeared shortly afterwards on JREF he decided to drop the "firm guilter' act because there was no longer any need for it.

Rose Montague used a slightly different approach. She joined PMF pretending to be fair and balanced individual who was still undecided. Of course, she fully intended to see the light and realise that Knox and Sollecito are innocent.

When she finally came out of the closet on JREF and declared that she thought Knox and Sollecito are innocent of the murder of Meredith Kercher, it was almost as hammy and unconvincing as London John's "firm guilter' act.

Fiona pointed out that Rose Montague suddenly came to the conclusion that Knox and Sollecito are innocent without explaining what specifically led her to this conclusion. Rose Montague was unable to explain why she suddenly realised that Knox and Sollecito are innocent, which is understandable because she had made her mind up before she joined PMF.

Rose Montage can now be found in cyberspace trying to convince people that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are innocent:

"Craig,
I don't know where you did your research on this case but you have many of your facts wrong. Raffaele called the police before they arrived. This was proven in court and not contested in the recently released PMF translation of the Massei report. Amanda tried to call Meredith's phones 3 times and called Filomena between those efforts. Amanda was not leaving with a mop and bucket when the police arrived she had already taken them to Raffaele's to clean the spill and had already put them back when the police arrived. When police went to Raffaele's "everything" was not cleaned with bleach and there is no evidence that even the knife was cleaned with bleach other than the fact that one officer said he smelled bleach. It is pointed out in the appeal documents that Filomena testified to the fact that there was also glass under the clothes as well as in the middle of the clothes, testimony that is ignored by the court in the Massei report.
If you are really interested as a "campaigner for liberty" you should at the very least, post corrections to your errors."

Posted by: RoseMontague at August 16, 2010 4:21 PM

http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/ ... charg.html
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Offline TomM


User avatar


Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:28 pm

Posts: 583

Location: California

Highscores: 8

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

stilicho wrote:
TomM wrote:
I am well past displays of patriotism. I would have said that I am not in the least bit patriotic, but when someone a week or so ago posted sometlhing about something being an American characteristic, my critical senses were engaged.***


Boy, I hope that wasn't me who said that about Americans.

My relationship with Americans (including a few cousins) is that they are probably the least jingoistic people I have known. Most of them I know are inclusive rather than exclusive. The power of the US isn't its military but its institutions based on ideals that appeal to individuals everywhere.

It's hard to imagine a political entity that can easily accommodate both Dick Cheney and Kurt Vonnegut. But there you go.

No, it wasn't you, Stil. It's not of great moment. It was just an oblique remark which I don't specifically remember now. I just remember puzzling over what was meant and wondering whether I should feel offended. That's not something I normally feel when I hear Americans being criticized.

There is indeed, quite a wide range of attitude among the citizenry. Considering that some of our states started out a penal colonies, and other immigrants ranged from seekers of religious freedom to opportunists, and generally consisted of people who were not doing well in the countries from which they came, this not surprising.
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Offline Macport


User avatar


Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 7:54 am

Posts: 710

Location: Western USA

Highscores: 12

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

The video of Raffaele Sollecito's apartment from FOA that is located here sollecito apartment has been downloaded and now uploaded to PMF in the Forensics subforum. The video has been split into four pieces in order to upload it to PMF. I have posted it in two file formats (.flv and .mp4) to facilitate it being played on either Windows Media Player or QuickTime Player. The .flv codec may need to be installed in your Windows Media Player for it to display the video properly. If you have any problems playing the video please PM me with questions. If the need arises the video can also be posted in .wmv format as I have converted to that as well. The links to the video are as follows:

RS Apartment parts 1 - 3 .flv format

RS Apartment parts 4 .flv & 1 and 2 .mp4 format

RS Apartment parts 3 and 4 .mp4 format
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Offline piktor


User avatar


Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:30 pm

Posts: 1081

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Ms H. then asked if this meant whether she would be a Lady.
I responded that indeed it did but only once
the marriage was complete and that people people might also
refer to her as a Countess
but not to her face. It was at this point,
I am sorry to relate
that she vaulted the desk and
punched me squarely
in the face.

In the circumstances I am sure that you will appreciate that I await
your Lordship's instruction before taking matters further.-SomeAlibi


Yes-- yes -- oh, yes -- Lady Mary. It has such a ring to it. It certainly suits her.-
Earl Grey


Attachment:
Intercontinental engagement.jpg


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Last edited by piktor on Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Rose's quoted paragraph contains basically fair corrections, Machine, that came out during the trial, with the possible exception of what she wrote about Filomena's testimony which I don't know in detail.

As for professing undecidedness, I agree, Rose was clearly not sitting on the fence when she came here.
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Offline Earl Grey


User avatar


Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:38 pm

Posts: 236

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Viv wrote:
Earl Grey wrote:
Quote:
Ah, thank you.
I for one couldn't be more pleased to learn that the photographer of the person in my avatar is named Whacker.

Dear Earl Grey,
Arghs - have had a Moment of Stupid. I was picturing your sepia gent pointing his finger and crying "Aha!!" as he verbally wallops seven bells out of the idiots on that newspaper comments page, which is why the photographer's name amused me. Call me senile, but I didn't think of alt. definitions, wot might be seen as rather offensive. Apologies. I shouldn't be permitted to post past my bedtime...


Dear Viv,
No worries whatsoever.
For me, there was really no offensive definition that came to mind when I read this. I only thought about the word "wacky" or else the verb "to whack" (as in FOA people).
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2310

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Anne Bremner has been charged with drink driving:

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/425312_bremner18.html
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Offline Earl Grey


User avatar


Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:38 pm

Posts: 236

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Sheer genius, S. Alibi.
Is there anything you lawyerly types don't know or can't do?
Well, I'll see if I can at some point persuade his Lordship to respond to your letter, but it'll probably be a comparably feeble attempt.



SomeAlibi wrote:


25 & 26 Stretch Chambers
Round the back of the Barista Stand
Store Street
London
WC1E 1AK


Dear Lord Grey,

Re: Project Tinkerbell

Thank you for your letter of the 12th inst., in which you instructed Alibi, Lye and Bluster in the matter of your impending nuptials to Ms Mary H aka Project Tinkerbell. May I speak for the entire staff here when I say that your lordship is a pioneer in matters amatory and you have left us all quite speechless in our regard of your situation.

In re the same, I am grateful for your lordship's confirmation that you had not sampled the No.2 Mushroom Tea consignment in which we had the honour of defending Grey Enterprises against the joint action by HM Revenue & Customs and The Southampton Happy Daze Treatment Centre. If I may be so indelicate, may I take this opportunity to remind your Lordship that your account with us is due settlement in regards the expense claims for i) secure transporation provided to those members of HMRC who inspected the consignment at close quarters and ii) the bill for professional services from Dr Sigmund Mocio who convinced Officer Trepanner that he was indeed not a Plum-Headed Parakeet and should under no circumstances attempt to fly down from the shipping container upon which he was perched.

At the same time, I regret to inform you that matters regarding the successful negotiation of a pre-nuptial agreement with Ms H. in respect of your lordship's estates and the 1973 Mater's Settlement For Dinkums Will Trust have proved somewhat vexing;

I had, of course, travelled, at your instruction, to Seattle to secure the same and met with the future Lady Gray and her representative. However I am sorry to relate that the meeting seemed marred by some social misunderstandings and perhaps a lack of mutual terminology. Those representing Ms Gray seemed to take great exception to the fact that I declined to join them in a celebratory "Three Wheel Blow-Out" cocktail on the basis that I had only just had breakfast and that, regardless, the fumes were condensing on my reading glasses making the working environment quite uncondusive. The attorney offered me an alternative which in their quaint vernacular I believe she called a "Stuck Up Limey Bastard" but it was a little hard to hear her as she had her forehead on her desk and was talking directly into a stack of stack of envelopes which she appeared to be making ready for the affixing of postage stamps by the liberal application of a small pool of spittle.

I must say, your dearly intended was quite delightful and read through the terms of the "prenup" most attentively, all the while entertaining us with the utterance of a series of bon mots which I believe are distinctly local. When I questioned her on their meaning, she enquired if I had ever been to Kismiaz but I informed her that I was Church of England and sadly unversed in the Jewish festivals.

At this point, her attorney muttered "Breakfast?" in a bemused voice but before I realised that she was merely catching up with my previous statement I responded that I had said that I had had my breakfast, had she? Then suspecting my mistake, I begged her pardon if I had had mistaken what she had said to have had a conotation than it had not had, or that she had meant it to have had imparted unless of course I was in error and she had had intended it through what she had stated in the manner she had. She enquired if "the three of you are trying to ring my bell?" to which I responded I was a fan of campanology, certainly, to which she replied the she could tell by the way I walked. I merely relay it as it happened...

Terms were proceeding quite well until we came to the conditions that your Lordship felt might ease the future Lady Grey's passage into English society. I had showed her the pictures of the estate stables and said that she would be instructed in the equestrian arts but on seeing the riding instructors' picture, Ms H. pointed at their jodhpurs and said "who are these jackboot, tight trousered somovbitches?". The ensuing explanation took some time as did reducing the temperature when Ms H. mistook a reference to your Lordship's fondness "for all matters equine" for something related to a certain oriental book of flexible education.

Unfortunately our last misunderstanding may take even longer to resolve. Ms H. asked what honourific might be due to her following your marriage. She said she had expressed her excitement at marrying the "Duke of Earl" to her friends at the weekly branch meeting of "Tourette Patriots for Freedom". I explained, of course, that your Lordship's position was not that of a Dukedom but nevertheless your Lordship was indeed an Earl and therefore a Lord which should make it clear, inter alia, that you were not the "Duke of Earl". She seemed to follow this explanation well enough, counting on her fingers with her tongue wedged charmingly between her dainty teeth but it must be said that both of us were somewhat distracted by her attorney singing the lyrics to the eponymous ditty by Gene Chandler while trying to insert a handful of ice-cubes into the clock on her mantlepiece.

Ms H. then asked if this meant whether she would be a Lady. I responded that indeed it did but only once the marriage was complete and that people people might also refer to her as a Countness but not to her face. It was at this point, I am sorry to relate that she vaulted the desk and punched me squarely in the face.

In the circumstances I am sure that you will appreciate that I await your Lordship's instruction before taking matters further.


Yours sincerely

S.Alibi


p.s. I should also relay the Orient Express is off for the honeymoon. She informs me that she "don't do no railroads".
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2310

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

The Seattle Times also has an article about Bremner being charged with drink driving:

High-profile attorney Anne Bremner has been charged with one count of driving under the influence, according to the King County Sheriff's Office.

The charge was filed Wednesday in King County District Court in Shoreline. She is scheduled to be arraigned on Sept. 1.

Reached by a reporter by cellphone, Bremner said she was in a meeting and couldn't immediately comment.

Bremner was pulled over June 4 after a sheriff's deputy spotted her driving her BMW with a flattened tire in Kenmore, according to the Sheriff's Office. Once stopped, Bremner showed signs of impairment, the Sheriff's Office said.

She was booked into King County Jail just after 2 a.m. June 4 — her 52nd birthday — and was released less than five hours later, jail records show.

In an interview earlier this month, Bremner said she had drinks with dinner on the night of June 3 but was not drunk when she was pulled over by the deputy. Instead, she says she was the victim of a hit-and-run accident before her arrest and suffered a brain injury, resulting in behavior that mimicked the signs of alcohol impairment.

But in court documents, the Sheriff's Office said Bremner didn't report being in an accident or request medical attention at the time of her arrest.

"This is a straightforward DUI from our standpoint," sheriff's spokesman Sgt. John Urquhart had said.

Bremner had asked a King County judge to bar release of the deputy's report to news reporters to avoid negative publicity that could damage her reputation as a legal expert. However, a judge last week ruled that a redacted copy of the report could be released, but Bremner's attorney, Tyler Firkins, filed for a 14-day stay of the ruling so the decision can be appealed.

Sarah Roberts, the prosecutor for the city of Kenmore, declined last week to say why it has taken more than two months to review the case and make a decision on whether to file charges. She could not be reached immediately for comment on Wednesday.

Bremner is a well-known defense attorney who has often appeared on cable and national television programs to offer legal analysis. According to her website, she covered the Michael Jackson child-molestation trial in 2005 for CNN and has appeared on TruTV, "Good Morning America" and Fox News. Over the course of her 26-year career, she's represented numerous police agencies, officers and deputies.

She was also co-chairwoman for the Committee for a Two-Newspaper Town, which intervened in a legal fight between The Seattle Times Co. and The Hearst Corp., owner of the Seattle Post-Intelligencer, in what was ultimately an unsuccessful bid to keep both newspapers alive.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/l ... er19m.html


Last edited by The Machine on Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline stint7


User avatar


Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:07 pm

Posts: 1582

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

piktor wrote:
Ms H. then asked if this meant whether she would be a Lady.

In the circumstances I am sure that you will appreciate that I await
your Lordship's instruction before taking matters further.-Yes-- yes -- oh, yes -- Lady Mary. It has such a ring to it. It certainly suits her.
Earl Grey


Piktor Rules !!!! Yay-)

Just when I thought the artistry could get no better, I am wrong again

Absolutely Magnificent work; the doggie at the bottom with the sign was a stroke of genius

mul-)


Last edited by stint7 on Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline stilicho


User avatar


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:24 am

Posts: 2492

Location: Western Canada

Highscores: 8

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

bolint wrote:
Rose's quoted paragraph contains basically fair corrections, Machine, that came out during the trial, with the possible exception of what she wrote about Filomena's testimony which I don't know in detail.

As for professing undecidedness, I agree, Rose was clearly not sitting on the fence when she came here.


I'd like to see the cite for Filomena testifying that she even picked up the clothes. Where did that one come from?

As for the other corrections, they're pretty trivial. The article focuses on Amanda's lies and especially her heartless accusation of murder levelled against Patrick. Oh, right, she was scared. But not too scared to shower in a cold house, bounce around naked on a bloodstained carpet, and leave the front door unlocked so whoever was 'taking out the trash' could return at any time.

b-((
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2310

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

stilicho wrote:
bolint wrote:
Rose's quoted paragraph contains basically fair corrections, Machine, that came out during the trial, with the possible exception of what she wrote about Filomena's testimony which I don't know in detail.

As for professing undecidedness, I agree, Rose was clearly not sitting on the fence when she came here.


I'd like to see the cite for Filomena testifying that she even picked up the clothes. Where did that one come from?

As for the other corrections, they're pretty trivial. The article focuses on Amanda's lies and especially her heartless accusation of murder levelled against Patrick. Oh, right, she was scared. But not too scared to shower in a cold house, bounce around naked on a bloodstained carpet, and leave the front door unlocked so whoever was 'taking out the trash' could return at any time.

b-((


Rose Montague forget to mention that Knox lied about the order of the calls or that she didn't make a genuine attempt to reach Meredith.
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Offline Earl Grey


User avatar


Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:38 pm

Posts: 236

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

The Machine wrote:
Anne Bremner has been charged with drink driving:

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/425312_bremner18.html


Remember that scene from "Wizard of Oz" where the water from the pail is thrown in the face of the Wicked Witch of the West, and then she starts to melt?

They're different people, but the end result might be the same.
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Offline SomeAlibi


User avatar


Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:23 pm

Posts: 1932

Highscores: 7

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

piktor wrote:
Ms H. then asked if this meant whether she would be a Lady.
I responded that indeed it did but only once
the marriage was complete and that people people might also
refer to her as a Countess
but not to her face. It was at this point,
I am sorry to relate
that she vaulted the desk and
punched me squarely
in the face.

In the circumstances I am sure that you will appreciate that I await
your Lordship's instruction before taking matters further.-SomeAlibi


Yes-- yes -- oh, yes -- Lady Mary. It has such a ring to it. It certainly suits her.-
Earl Grey


Attachment:
Intercontinental engament.jpg




Brilliant. It's going up in my office. And when people ask what it's about, I shall say "Just a case I worked on" and smile enigmatically! :)

_________________
What it is is spin lent credence because it's from the mouth of a lawyer. We've seen how much gravitas they can carry merely by saying something is or is not so when often they are speaking as much rubbish as anyone else.
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Offline Earl Grey


User avatar


Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:38 pm

Posts: 236

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

This is great, Piktor. And I'm told that his Lordship does not at all mind the unauthorised
release of photographs of his romantic courtship of Mary H.
In fact, he delights in the attention and the chance to show his betrothed to supporters and well-wishers.



piktor wrote:
Ms H. then asked if this meant whether she would be a Lady.
I responded that indeed it did but only once
the marriage was complete and that people people might also
refer to her as a Countess
but not to her face. It was at this point,
I am sorry to relate
that she vaulted the desk and
punched me squarely
in the face.

In the circumstances I am sure that you will appreciate that I await
your Lordship's instruction before taking matters further.-SomeAlibi


Yes-- yes -- oh, yes -- Lady Mary. It has such a ring to it. It certainly suits her.-
Earl Grey


Attachment:
Intercontinental engament.jpg


Last edited by Earl Grey on Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2310

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Earl Grey wrote:
The Machine wrote:
Anne Bremner has been charged with drink driving:

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/425312_bremner18.html


Remember that scene from "Wizard of Oz" where the water from the pail is thrown in the face of the Wicked Witch of the West, and then she starts to melt?

They're different people, but the end result might be the same.


I wonder if Bruce Fisher is going to set up a blog called Injustice in Seattle and claim that Bremner was the innocent victim of a hit and run.

It seems that Anne Bremner's close friend Judge Michael Heavey was unable to make the charges disappear. He could always set up a group called the Friends of Anne, although he must remember not to use his court letterhead when campaigning on Bremner's behalf.


Last edited by The Machine on Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Earl Grey


User avatar


Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:38 pm

Posts: 236

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

The Machine wrote:
Earl Grey wrote:
The Machine wrote:
Anne Bremner has been charged with drink driving:

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/425312_bremner18.html


Remember that scene from "Wizard of Oz" where the water from the pail is thrown in the face of the Wicked Witch of the West, and then she starts to melt?

They're different people, but the end result might be the same.


I wonder if Bruce Fisher is going to set up a blog called Injustice in Seattle and claim that Bremner was the innocent victim of a hit and run.

It seems that Anne Bremner's close friend Judge Michael Heavey was unable to make the charges disappear. He could always set up a group called the Friends of Anne.


Things just don't seem to be going well these days for those who are in the FOA camp.
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2310

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Earl Grey wrote:
The Machine wrote:
Earl Grey wrote:
The Machine wrote:
Anne Bremner has been charged with drink driving:

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/425312_bremner18.html


Remember that scene from "Wizard of Oz" where the water from the pail is thrown in the face of the Wicked Witch of the West, and then she starts to melt?

They're different people, but the end result might be the same.


I wonder if Bruce Fisher is going to set up a blog called Injustice in Seattle and claim that Bremner was the innocent victim of a hit and run.

It seems that Anne Bremner's close friend Judge Michael Heavey was unable to make the charges disappear. He could always set up a group called the Friends of Anne.


Things just don't seem to be going well these days for those who are in the FOA camp.


Curt Knox, and Chris and Edda Mellas might all end up in Capanne prison. At least they won't have to travel so far when they want to visit Amanda Knox.

Joe Halderman is already in the slammer for trying to blackmail David Letterman.
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Offline stint7


User avatar


Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:07 pm

Posts: 1582

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

From the Seattle PI Article posted above by TM

1) Bremner attorney, Lindsay, opines:
Lindsay wrote in court documents that: "Bremner had been the "victim of a hit and run driver at 50 mph and had suffered a concussion," and argued that the deputy who stopped her in Kenmore "rushed to judgment."

"She was mistakenly arrested for DUI based solely upon the symptoms of traumatic brain injury," Lindsay wrote the court.

a) It is a good thing he *wrote* that because any rational being would have a hard time *saying* it in court without busting out laughing (or vomiting)

b) The "rush to judgment" BS sure gets overused lately since OJ's dream team $$$ employed it so successfully


2) Bremner's defense investigator interviewed the dinner party host, Rosselle Pekelis, a former state Supreme Court justice and former King County Superior Court judge. Pekelis, her husband, and others reported no issues with Bremner regarding her balance, coordination or thought process and speech, before she left, according to summaries of their statements.

a) Note 'her own' Investigator, and at least (2) lawyers, one psychiatrist, and another Medical Doctor, and about 6 injunctions and stays so far (just like any average Joe Beer Drinker would be afforded as DUI defense)

b) Oh, and such an *unbiased, neutral,objective* gaggle of potential witnesses her Investigator selected:... named above

Again, as noted by Skep, Ms Bremner deserves full consideration for her "problems"

I cite the above only because Ms Bremner was such an obnoxious omnipresent in your face objector in every available media available to her, to everything anything the Italian legal system, and any person involved in it tried to do to prosecute a unanimously convicted murderess.

All because the young murderess happened to be from her hometown and happened to be strongly supported by many of the same ' Seattle Big Wig Cronies' she is imploring now to undermine and abort the comparable legal process presently aligned (very reluctantly) against her.
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Offline piktor


User avatar


Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:30 pm

Posts: 1081

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

stint7, SomeAlibi, Earl Grey:

Thank you for your generous words. We should never pass up an opportunity for incisive ridiculosity!
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Offline piktor


User avatar


Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:30 pm

Posts: 1081

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

"I am pleased that the case is no longer in limbo," Bremner said in a statement released by a public relations firm.-Kirotv b-((

http://www.kirotv.com/news/24677793/detail.html

She claimed in recent interviews that she had head trauma from a car wreck, which possibly made her appear drunk.-MyNorthwest wa-))

http://www.mynorthwest.com/category/loc ... -with-DUI/
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Offline Earl Grey


User avatar


Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:38 pm

Posts: 236

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

piktor wrote:
"I am pleased that the case is no longer in limbo," Bremner said in a statement released by a public relations firm.-Kirotv


With beautiful quotes like that, absolutely no further wry commentary from me is needed.
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Offline SomeAlibi


User avatar


Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:23 pm

Posts: 1932

Highscores: 7

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

lauowolf wrote:
SomeAlibi says:
"The policeman who took the pipe said it came away easily and Amanda mentioned there had been a problem before. I think it happened but in a minor way."

Oooo
Oooo
Waves hand.
I know this one.
Here's where my landlady cred comes in handy.

I had the same problem with a tenant's sink.
There's an initial leak in that U or J shaped pipe under the sink drain.
Either the pipe itself is broken and leaks, or the joint between that pipe and the drain, or that pipe and the part coming out of the wall is faulty.
You take out broken bit, and replace it, or else you keep the unbroken U or J pipe, and properly seal up the joints, and then no more leaks.
Or so you hope.

But if someone does a fast and sloppy job, you are left with functional pieces which still leak.
That is, the U or J shaped pipe is itself intact, but one or both of the joints is left loose.
This gives you an intermittent leak.
When the sink is actually draining and water is in the pipe, a certain amount will come out from the leaky joints.
It is NOT a flood, but if you ignore it and just keep running water through the drain you could get maybe a couple of cups of water in the process of doing a big lot of dishes.
At first it just accumulates under the sink, getting everything in there soggy.
Finally there is enough to have it come seeping out of the cabinet under the sink and spreading out onto the floor.
At this point it might seem as if there is a "flood" but it is instead only the result of a small steady flow of water that has saturated the sink area unseen, and therefore become evident after there is a fair amount of it.
At this point, though, it is still nothing that a sponge couldn't easily pick up.

You'd only get a big flood if the pipe itself fell off or had been removed.
And the officer says it was attached and he removed it.
But he took it off easily, which might mean it had been loose.
Which might mean that there had been an earlier problem with the sink, and the landlord had fixed it, but left the joint too loose.
(Which is easy to do - getting those things watertight is a pain in the neck.)

In any case, it is easy to have a small leak with no damaged pipes in evidence.
The only way to be sure would have been to have tested the drain in situ.
And also, it is an easy leak to fake, requiring only a couple of tugs on the drain pipe.
Which anyone who was knowledgeable about the earlier repair would know.




This is a very good post Lauowolf and in particular I really hope everyone might now look at MacPort's posts of the Raffaele Apartment video taken on the 16th to link what Lauowolf has posted here and the thing that I've been musing on since the off of seeing this video; Concentrate on the cupboard floor when the policeman is picking up all the bottles and placing them. What do you see?

Number one - the bottles are under the sink pipes and have been unmoved - the policeman is moving them for the first time for the benefit of the video. Since they are directly under the sink pipe it would seem supportive that they have not been disturbed by a falling u-pipe that fell off. This corroborates the other statements of the police that this indeed was a split at the join in the pipe. If it's a split, it is hard to see a great volume of water occuring "while Raffaele was doing the washing up" per Amanda's trial testmony. Hmmmmm.....

But the main thing I see; water - drops of water coming off practically every bottle that is picked up and water already on the floor of the cupboard on the left and centre - drops and mini-pools of it glinting in the torch-light. Look at the cardboard box at the back of the cupboard when he picks it up and replaces it. Look at the very bottom edge of it - see it's soggy?

Now something else that is imortant? When the camera pans across to the right hand side of the cupboard (as we look at it) and we get to see the floor of the cupboard. What do we see? No water - bone dry.

So what SA? The water probably came from the police running the tap that day. No - have a look at the chalky residue (bleach? someone help on this point?) around the sink hole and over the surface of the sink. Remember that water swirls around a sink and a plug and then look at the pattern of residue - water hasn't been running here recently at all...


Attachment:
sink residue.JPG


Perhaps it's from the u-pipe being disconnected SA? I don't think so - this video is the sixteenth. Raffaele's diary is talking about the pipe being disconnected in his entry of the *7th*.


Which leads me to think...

Certain

i) Water doesn't evaporate terribly well in Raffaele's flat, does it Amanda?

Speculative

ii) Since you've seen how experienced the police are in dismantling pipes with the water filter on the washing machine, it doesn't strike me that they'd disconnect that (very thin) u-pipe and arbitrarily pour the small amount of water in it over the bottles which are important enough that you are later videoing them in detail. The bottles have not been moved - see the brown rings underneath them when they are lifted - they have been in place some days or more. No the police - they'd carry that u-pipe away intact, its upward orientation already being correct to prevent spilling water.

So where did that water come from? The obvious point to me is that it seems to be left over from a time when you were running the taps while cleaning with whatever it is that put down the chalky residue and the leaking pipe was still in situ. When was that? And why is the chalky residue all over the shop?

Which leads us to - why is it still there days later if this is evaporation central and then very nicely... if it was a deluge that happened, why is the soggy / stained bit of the cardboard box so very infinitesimally small in height? And why would the right hand side of the sink be bone dry even allowing for the first Dixan bag that is slightly blocking the right hand side. If there had been a big flood in there of which this was the left over residue, the cardboard would be soaked and the right hand side would have an accumulation of water also.

This looks a LOT more like a relatively minor pooling accumulation of water to left and centre of the cupboard that then starts dripping out of the front of the closed cupboard doors while Raffaele is doing the washing up lest we forget. It is so very far from something that couldn't be cleaned up by the multiplicity of absorbent sponges and cloths right there in that cupboard let alone the towel on the cooker door handle and the bath-towels.

So - water doesn't evaporate in that flat fast at all (and it generally doesn't fullstop, let alone in a student flat in November) and it's just another set of circumstances that shows that the spill was nowhere near the volume suggested to need a mop.

Oh - and when you have a spill in a cupboard and across the floor - what do you do? I clear out the cupboard and dry that up AND I dry the floor up. Why would you only dry the floor up? Were you perhaps a little pre-occupied?


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

_________________
What it is is spin lent credence because it's from the mouth of a lawyer. We've seen how much gravitas they can carry merely by saying something is or is not so when often they are speaking as much rubbish as anyone else.


Last edited by SomeAlibi on Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline tjt


Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:20 am

Posts: 30

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Love that pic, Pik. Made my day.
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Offline BobTheDnky


Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:01 am

Posts: 81

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:58 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

SomeAlibi wrote:
lauowolf wrote:
SomeAlibi says:
"The policeman who took the pipe said it came away easily and Amanda mentioned there had been a problem before. I think it happened but in a minor way."

Oooo
Oooo
Waves hand.
I know this one.
Here's where my landlady cred comes in handy.

I had the same problem with a tenant's sink.
There's an initial leak in that U or J shaped pipe under the sink drain.
Either the pipe itself is broken and leaks, or the joint between that pipe and the drain, or that pipe and the part coming out of the wall is faulty.
You take out broken bit, and replace it, or else you keep the unbroken U or J pipe, and properly seal up the joints, and then no more leaks.
Or so you hope.

But if someone does a fast and sloppy job, you are left with functional pieces which still leak.
That is, the U or J shaped pipe is itself intact, but one or both of the joints is left loose.
This gives you an intermittent leak.
When the sink is actually draining and water is in the pipe, a certain amount will come out from the leaky joints.
It is NOT a flood, but if you ignore it and just keep running water through the drain you could get maybe a couple of cups of water in the process of doing a big lot of dishes.
At first it just accumulates under the sink, getting everything in there soggy.
Finally there is enough to have it come seeping out of the cabinet under the sink and spreading out onto the floor.
At this point it might seem as if there is a "flood" but it is instead only the result of a small steady flow of water that has saturated the sink area unseen, and therefore become evident after there is a fair amount of it.
At this point, though, it is still nothing that a sponge couldn't easily pick up.

You'd only get a big flood if the pipe itself fell off or had been removed.
And the officer says it was attached and he removed it.
But he took it off easily, which might mean it had been loose.
Which might mean that there had been an earlier problem with the sink, and the landlord had fixed it, but left the joint too loose.
(Which is easy to do - getting those things watertight is a pain in the neck.)

In any case, it is easy to have a small leak with no damaged pipes in evidence.
The only way to be sure would have been to have tested the drain in situ.
And also, it is an easy leak to fake, requiring only a couple of tugs on the drain pipe.
Which anyone who was knowledgeable about the earlier repair would know.




This is a very good post Lauowolf and in particular I really hope everyone might now look at MacPort's posts of the Raffaele Apartment video taken on the 16th to link what Lauowolf has posted here and the thing that I've been musing on since the off of seeing this video; Concentrate on the cupboard floor when the policeman is picking up all the bottles and placing them. What do you see?

Number one - the bottles are under the sink pipes and have been unmoved - the policeman is moving them for the first time for the benefit of the video. Since they are directly under the sink pipe it would seem supportive that they have not been disturbed by a falling u-pipe that fell off. This corroborates the other statements of the police that this indeed was a split at the join in the pipe. If it's a split, it is hard to see a great volume of water occuring "while Raffaele was doing the washing up" per Amanda's trial testmony. Hmmmmm.....

But the main thing I see; water - drops of water coming off practically every bottle that is picked up and water already on the floor of the cupboard on the left and centre - drops and mini-pools of it glinting in the torch-light. Look at the cardboard box at the back of the cupboard when he picks it up and replaces it. Look at the very bottom edge of it - see it's soggy?

Now something else that is imortant? When the camera pans across to the right hand side of the cupboard (as we look at it) and we get to see the floor of the cupboard. What do we see? No water - bone dry.

So what SA? The water probably came from the police running the tap that day. No - have a look at the chalky residue (bleach? someone help on this point?) around the sink hole and over the surface of the sink. Remember that water swirls around a sink and a plug and then look at the pattern of residue - water hasn't been running here recently at all...


Attachment:
sink residue.JPG


Perhaps it's from the u-pipe being disconnected SA? I don't think so - this video is the sixteenth. Raffaele's diary is talking about the pipe being disconnected in his entry of the *7th*.


Which leads me to think...

Certain

i) Water doesn't evaporate terribly well in Raffaele's flat, does it Amanda?

Speculative

ii) Since you've seen how experienced the police are in dismantling pipes with the water filter on the washing machine, it doesn't strike me that they'd disconnect that (very thin) u-pipe and arbitrarily pour the small amount of water in it over the bottles which are important enough that you are later videoing them in detail. The bottles have not been moved - see the brown rings underneath them when they are lifted - they have been in place some days or more. No the police - they'd carry that u-pipe away intact, its upward orientation already being correct to prevent spilling water.

So where did that water come from? The obvious point to me is that it seems to be left over from a time when you were running the taps while cleaning with whatever it is that put down the chalky residue and the leaking pipe was still in situ. When was that? And why is the chalky residue all over the shop?

Which leads us to - why is it still there days later if this is evaporation central and then very nicely... if it was a deluge that happened, why is the soggy / stained bit of the cardboard box so very infinitesimally small in height? And why would the right hand side of the sink be bone dry even allowing for the first Dixan bag that is slightly blocking the right hand side. If there had been a big flood in there of which this was the left over residue, the cardboard would be soaked and the right hand side would have an accumulation of water also.

This looks a LOT more like a relatively minor pooling accumulation of water to left and centre of the cupboard that then starts dripping out of the front of the closed cupboard doors while Raffaele is doing the washing up lest we forget. It is so very far from something that couldn't be cleaned up by the multiplicity of absorbent sponges and cloths right there in that cupboard let alone the towel on the cooker door handle and the bath-towels.

So - water doesn't evaporate in that flat fast at all (and it generally doesn't fullstop, let alone in a student flat in November) and it's just another set of circumstances that shows that the spill was nowhere near the volume suggested to need a mop.

Oh - and when you have a spill in a cupboard and across the floor - what do you do? I clear out the cupboard and dry that up AND I dry the floor up. Why would you only dry the floor up? Were you perhaps a little pre-occupied?

The chalky residue is more likely to be "hard water spots", the bane of every auto detailer... :lol: Hardly verifiable evidence of bleach (at least, from where we're sitting) and really just shows the sink hasn't been used for however many days it takes for what little bit of water was there to evaporate.

As for how quickly water evaporates in the flat, that is really just conjecture. I think what's important is that it shows that the water wasn't cleaned up. If, as she/they claimed, the mop had been retrieved to clean up the spill, why is there still puddled water underneath the sink?. Logic would dictate that if the spill was large enough, and they were intent enough on cleaning up the water, the duo would have cleared out whatever was under the sink and soaked up what water they could reach under there as well.
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Offline Yummi


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Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:29 pm

Posts: 975

Location: Bunga-Bunga Republic

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Piktor!
the marriage thread wass a bit too high spirited for me to understand completely
but that was too much, I couldn't stop laughing! That's genius
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Offline H9


User avatar


Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:37 am

Posts: 1716

Highscores: 161

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Fantastic prenuptial picture, pictor! I do hope this is the OT talking point on jref etc. BTW, what is on the right side at the hem of Mary's dress, on the floor there?
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Offline SomeAlibi


User avatar


Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:23 pm

Posts: 1932

Highscores: 7

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Bob - I take what you say about hard-water. That's a *lot* of hard-water on the right hand edge of the sink hole? And all over every part of the metal draining board? I dunno...

The point of the evaporation was that Amanda said that so much water had been left over even having tried to clean up with the 5 cloths in the sink for instance that they had to get a mop... (You notice that two of the sponges at the back of the sink are not even withdrawn from the packet) yet within less than *13 hours* there was hardly any left due to evaporation!

But anyway I agree with you that the important bit is the not cleaning it up inside the sink. Tough to think about doing the cupboards when you are trying to create several alibis to get you off a murder innit...

_________________
What it is is spin lent credence because it's from the mouth of a lawyer. We've seen how much gravitas they can carry merely by saying something is or is not so when often they are speaking as much rubbish as anyone else.
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Offline H9


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Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:37 am

Posts: 1716

Highscores: 161

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:14 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

In the meantime, Amanda has been doing yoga, reading, and writing letters to her boyfriend who is serving 25 years.

http://wellbiteme.com/5286/news/amanda- ... innocence/



So.. DJ must be out of the picture now?
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Offline SomeAlibi


User avatar


Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:23 pm

Posts: 1932

Highscores: 7

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:15 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Yummi wrote:
Piktor!
the marriage thread wass a bit too high spirited for me to understand completely
but that was too much, I couldn't stop laughing! That's genius



Indeed. Over-wordy lawyer speak versus the clarity of inspired imagery. The pen may be mightier than the sword but now too we can see that the easel is mightier than the weasel...


p.s. Can someone please precee for me what the FOA argument was about the Harry Potter books again? I've totally lost that and I can't find it. Cheers...

_________________
What it is is spin lent credence because it's from the mouth of a lawyer. We've seen how much gravitas they can carry merely by saying something is or is not so when often they are speaking as much rubbish as anyone else.
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Offline piktor


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Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:30 pm

Posts: 1081

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:15 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

h9A7wa9i1K wrote:
BTW, what is on the right side at the hem of Mary's dress, on the floor there?

A cornucopia of assorted multi-colored peppers. ss-)
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

SomeAlibi wrote:
Bob - I take what you say about hard-water. That's a *lot* of hard-water on the right hand edge of the sink hole? And all over every part of the metal draining board? I dunno...

The point of the evaporation was that Amanda said that so much water had been left over even having tried to clean up with the 5 cloths in the sink for instance that they had to get a mop... (You notice that two of the sponges at the back of the sink are not even withdrawn from the packet) yet within less than *13 hours* there was hardly any left due to evaporation!
But anyway I agree with you that the important bit is the not cleaning it up inside the sink. Tough to think about doing the cupboards when you are trying to create several alibis to get you off a murder innit...


The great thing about cloths, rags, towels, sponges and the like is that they can be wrung out once they become water logged and reused. This simple process can in fact be repeated indefinitely.:)

_________________
Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point; on le sait en mille choses.
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Offline SomeAlibi


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Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:23 pm

Posts: 1932

Highscores: 7

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

My mind has been turning on alibis a lot. It makes me think (no proof, no nothing, just a muse);

If I'd bought two bottles of bleach after a murder and then I thought the police we getting onto me, I'd get down a store and buy two bottles more, throw them away and leave the receipt from my latter purchase hanging around...

Just saying like...

_________________
What it is is spin lent credence because it's from the mouth of a lawyer. We've seen how much gravitas they can carry merely by saying something is or is not so when often they are speaking as much rubbish as anyone else.
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Offline Jools


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

piktor wrote:
Ms H. then asked if this meant whether she would be a Lady.
I responded that indeed it did but only once
the marriage was complete and that people people might also
refer to her as a Countess
but not to her face. It was at this point,
I am sorry to relate
that she vaulted the desk and
punched me squarely
in the face.

In the circumstances I am sure that you will appreciate that I await
your Lordship's instruction before taking matters further.-SomeAlibi


Yes-- yes -- oh, yes -- Lady Mary. It has such a ring to it. It certainly suits her.-
Earl Grey


Attachment:
Intercontinental engagement.jpg


Piktor,
This piece is Fantastic!

cl-) Thanks for the laugh! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Offline piktor


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Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:30 pm

Posts: 1081

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

SomeAlibi wrote:
Yummi wrote:
Piktor!
the marriage thread wass a bit too high spirited for me to understand completely
but that was too much, I couldn't stop laughing! That's genius



Indeed. Over-wordy lawyer speak versus the clarity of inspired imagery. The pen may be mightier than the sword but now too we can see that the easel is mightier than the weasel...


p.s. Can someone please precee for me what the FOA argument was about the Harry Potter books again? I've totally lost that and I can't find it. Cheers...


Thanks, Yummi! It's a team effort.

S.Alibi, The Harry Potter to-do was about Knox reading H. Potter at Sollecito's on Nov. 1 night. There was a Potter book at Pergola 7 and people said she was lying. Apparently Knox had a German H.Potter at Sollecito's and another Potter in another language (English?) at Pergola 7.
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Offline piktor


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Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:30 pm

Posts: 1081

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Jools wrote:

Piktor,
This piece is Fantastic!

cl-) Thanks for the laugh! :lol: :lol: :lol:


Jools, thanks to you!
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Offline SomeAlibi


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Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:23 pm

Posts: 1932

Highscores: 7

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:29 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
SomeAlibi wrote:
Bob - I take what you say about hard-water. That's a *lot* of hard-water on the right hand edge of the sink hole? And all over every part of the metal draining board? I dunno...

The point of the evaporation was that Amanda said that so much water had been left over even having tried to clean up with the 5 cloths in the sink for instance that they had to get a mop... (You notice that two of the sponges at the back of the sink are not even withdrawn from the packet) yet within less than *13 hours* there was hardly any left due to evaporation!
But anyway I agree with you that the important bit is the not cleaning it up inside the sink. Tough to think about doing the cupboards when you are trying to create several alibis to get you off a murder innit...


The great thing about cloths, rags, towels, sponges and the like is that they can be wrung out once they become water logged and reused. This simple process can in fact be repeated indefinitely.:)



But... gosh... Skep.... you're being jolly unfair to them. I mean, what would they wring out such highly absorbent cloths *into*. I mean, it's not like there anything easily to hand...

Attachment:
two pans.JPG

Attachment:
three pans.JPG

Attachment:
Big f'in' pan.JPG


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

_________________
What it is is spin lent credence because it's from the mouth of a lawyer. We've seen how much gravitas they can carry merely by saying something is or is not so when often they are speaking as much rubbish as anyone else.
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Offline H9


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Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:37 am

Posts: 1716

Highscores: 161

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:29 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

SomeAlibi wrote:

p.s. Can someone please precee for me what the FOA argument was about the Harry Potter books again? I've totally lost that and I can't find it. Cheers...



I think it is like the cartwheel.. FOA said she was found guilty because she said she was reading Harry Potter with RS and the police footage of the flat showed a copy of the book in the cottage. So FOA made a video ( on brucie's site) and youtube showing the book on RS's desk. I think actually there are 2 books in RS's flat and there was one in the cottage?


OK : Brucie's version:

6) Lie - It was leaked to the media that investigators had collected the Harry Potter German edition book from Amanda's apartment. Amanda Knox had stated that she spent the night at Raffeale's apartment on the night of Meredith's murder. She stated that they watched the film Amelie and read Harry Potter in the German edition. Finding this book was another blow to Amanda's alibi.

Truth - The leaked story was a complete lie. The video below shows the Harry Potter German edition book at Raffaele's apartment as the apartment was being searched for evidence. The investigators never found the book at Amanda's apartment even though she did have a copy of her own. The information was leaked to further damage the reputation of Amanda Knox. This evidence was never presented at trial, proving once again that this was a lie. This lie was leaked on Tuesday, December 18, 2007, shortly before a hearing was to take place to decide if Amanda and Raffaele would remain in custody until their trial.

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/myths.html


Last edited by H9 on Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Jools


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

SomeAlibi wrote:
Yummi wrote:
Piktor!
the marriage thread wass a bit too high spirited for me to understand completely
but that was too much, I couldn't stop laughing! That's genius



Indeed. Over-wordy lawyer speak versus the clarity of inspired imagery. The pen may be mightier than the sword but now too we can see that the easel is mightier than the weasel...


p.s. Can someone please precee for me what the FOA argument was about the Harry Potter books again? I've totally lost that and I can't find it. Cheers...

FOA have given various versions, but here is the latest one from Bruce Fisher:
Quote:
Lie - It was leaked to the media that investigators had collected the Harry Potter German edition book from Amanda's apartment. Amanda Knox had stated that she spent the night at Raffeale's apartment on the night of Meredith's murder. She stated that they watched the film Amelie and read Harry Potter in the German edition. Finding this book was another blow to Amanda's alibi.

Truth - The leaked story was a complete lie. The video below shows the Harry Potter German edition book at Raffaele's apartment as the apartment was being searched for evidence. The investigators never found the book at Amanda's apartment even though she did have a copy of her own. The information was leaked to further damage the reputation of Amanda Knox. This evidence was never presented at trial, proving once again that this was a lie. This lie was leaked on Tuesday, December 18, 2007, shortly before a hearing was to take place to decide if Amanda and Raffaele would remain in custody until their trial.


Last edited by Jools on Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline stilicho


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Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:24 am

Posts: 2492

Location: Western Canada

Highscores: 8

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

h9A7wa9i1K wrote:
So.. DJ must be out of the picture now?


DJ doesn't want to wind up friendless and alone like BF and CW in 26 years. All those gun-toting dudes with the tats and the funky facial hair linked to Edda and Madison will be your everyday Sunday golfers with mortgage payments and mouths to feed by the time Knox is released.

Family is required to stick around; old college buds have their own goals in life.
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Offline H9


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Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:37 am

Posts: 1716

Highscores: 161

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

stilicho wrote:
h9A7wa9i1K wrote:
So.. DJ must be out of the picture now?


DJ doesn't want to wind up friendless and alone like BF and CW in 26 years. All those gun-toting dudes with the tats and the funky facial hair linked to Edda and Madison will be your everyday Sunday golfers with mortgage payments and mouths to feed by the time Knox is released.

Family is required to stick around; old college buds have their own goals in life.


BF is not alone yet.. he is sporting a lovely lady in his FB photo and he 'used' his son to video the famous back to the door locking technique...

CW however....

JL ( or LJ as he calls himself) however....

These guys are already seriously alone...... Mary to the rescue??!!
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Offline thoughtful


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Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:48 pm

Posts: 1225

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

SomeAlibi wrote:
Quote:
If I'd bought two bottles of bleach after a murder and then I thought the police we getting onto me, I'd get down a store and buy two bottles more, throw them away and leave the receipt from my latter purchase hanging around...

Just saying like...


SomeAlibi. That's brilliant. You have a criminal mind. I think you might want to consider changing jobs.
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Offline Rebel


Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:25 am

Posts: 129

Location: Bellingham WA

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:55 pm   Post subject: Floor Cleaning Stuff   

I am curious to know who might have owned all the floor cleaning stuff (mop, bucket, broom, dustpan?) sitting on the porch of the cottage. They appeared in photos of the cottage taken during and after the investigation. Speculation anyone?
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Offline bedelia


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Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:12 am

Posts: 167

Location: New York

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

The Machine wrote:
stilicho wrote:
bolint wrote:
Rose's quoted paragraph contains basically fair corrections, Machine, that came out during the trial, with the possible exception of what she wrote about Filomena's testimony which I don't know in detail.

As for professing undecidedness, I agree, Rose was clearly not sitting on the fence when she came here.


I'd like to see the cite for Filomena testifying that she even picked up the clothes. Where did that one come from?

As for the other corrections, they're pretty trivial. The article focuses on Amanda's lies and especially her heartless accusation of murder levelled against Patrick. Oh, right, she was scared. But not too scared to shower in a cold house, bounce around naked on a bloodstained carpet, and leave the front door unlocked so whoever was 'taking out the trash' could return at any time.

b-((


Rose Montague forget to mention that Knox lied about the order of the calls or that she didn't make a genuine attempt to reach Meredith.


Clearly Rose is still reading here, since the blog post is old yet her comment is dated from the day that the link was posted here.
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Offline Earl Grey


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Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:38 pm

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Well, it took some doing, but through the persistence of some very dedicated police sources (names withheld for obvious reasons), I've managed to obtain an actual video recording of
the party that Anne Bremner attended before she went on the road and was arrested.

If you look at the very end of this footage (6:38 on) you can actually see her drinking straight from
a bottle. Note the change in her facial expression and demeanor, which is almost immediate.

I think it must be perfectly clear to anyone who views this that she was in no fit state to
drive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_q2T_9UCTiI



picture of a pumpkin
This Post has been edited by a Moderator
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Last edited by Earl Grey on Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline bucketoftea


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

I've just been reading the Comissario's piece at TJMK and it says:

"Since Mignini has already said that they won’t appeal the case, Amanda and Raffaele are likely to see their jail sentence decreased by a few years, or at most confirmed, but not increased. Art. 575 of the Italian Penal Code however prescribes a minimum of 21 years for voluntary homicide."

I thought Mignini was appealing. Did I miss something important?
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2310

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

bucketoftea wrote:
I've just been reading the Comissario's piece at TJMK and it says:

"Since Mignini has already said that they won’t appeal the case, Amanda and Raffaele are likely to see their jail sentence decreased by a few years, or at most confirmed, but not increased. Art. 575 of the Italian Penal Code however prescribes a minimum of 21 years for voluntary homicide."

I thought Mignini was appealing. Did I miss something important?


The piece was written before Mignini appealed.
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

I wonder if Drunk Annie will copy Knoxy's court dress sense to impress the Seattle judge?
drin-) drin-)


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Last edited by Jools on Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline mortytoad


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

bucketoftea wrote:
I've just been reading the Comissario's piece at TJMK and it says:

"Since Mignini has already said that they won’t appeal the case, Amanda and Raffaele are likely to see their jail sentence decreased by a few years, or at most confirmed, but not increased. Art. 575 of the Italian Penal Code however prescribes a minimum of 21 years for voluntary homicide."

I thought Mignini was appealing. Did I miss something important?


Comissario's initial post was written back in December almost right after the verdict when Mignini said that he would not appeal.
I'm glad that he changed his mind in the meantime.

EDIT: woops, The Machine beat me to it. Dang. I actually knew something.
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Offline bucketoftea


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Thank you both :D
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Offline Patzu


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

h9A7wa9i1K wrote:
In the meantime, Amanda has been doing yoga, reading, and writing letters to her boyfriend who is serving 25 years.

http://wellbiteme.com/5286/news/amanda- ... innocence/



So.. DJ must be out of the picture now?


How is Raffy doing, Last I heard he was poorly and had turned to the man upstairs...


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Offline The 411


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Posts: 1386

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:56 pm   Post subject: PRICELESS PIKTOR PMF PARODY!   

piktor wrote:
Ms H. then asked if this meant whether she would be a Lady.
I responded that indeed it did but only once
the marriage was complete and that people people might also
refer to her as a Countess
but not to her face. It was at this point,
I am sorry to relate
that she vaulted the desk and
punched me squarely
in the face.

In the circumstances I am sure that you will appreciate that I await
your Lordship's instruction before taking matters further.-SomeAlibi


Yes-- yes -- oh, yes -- Lady Mary. It has such a ring to it. It certainly suits her.-
Earl Grey


Attachment:
Intercontinental engagement.jpg


Piktor,
Once again...
You've made me ROAR with laughter! (Another) Priceless Piktor PMF Parody! hugz-)
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Offline Catnip


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Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:11 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

piktor wrote:
The Harry Potter to-do was about Knox reading H. Potter at Sollecito's on Nov. 1 night. There was a Potter book at Pergola 7 and people said she was lying. Apparently Knox had a German H.Potter at Sollecito's and another Potter in another language (English?) at Pergola 7.



The Potter at the cottage was the Phoenix:

Quote:

– A book titled Harry Potter – Und der Orden des Phönix, in German, on Amanda Knox’s bed.

Source: list of items found, quoted by Sarzanini in Amanda and the Others, p 16



Edited to add:
Presumably the ownership of cottage Potter can be attributed to Amanda.


The ownership of the Raffaele apartment Potter has not been stated (as far as I am aware of, so far): since Raffaele did Erasmus in Germany, and Amanda has German interests and heritage, either (or both?) could have owned it. Reading from it to your boyfriend does not neccessarily imply that you own it. It could just as easily have been the boyfriend wanting the girlfriend to be near (a sort of permanent loan*).

*The book, I mean; not the girlfriend. (But, on the other hand, ...)
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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:39 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Re: SomeAlibi's question the other day about the usage of the towels.

The answer changes according to the context, doesn't it?

The bringing of Amanda's lamp into Meredith's room has often (always?) been assumed to have been after the murder.

That assumption could be one of those natural and "honest" views of the world.


If the lamp was brought round and plugged in before the stabbing, a slightly different motivation for the dynamics suggests itself. While Meredith was being held and restrained, someone goes to grab the lamp.

Plus also, this hypothesis could, additionally, easily have Rudy knocking the lamp over by yanking the door open on his exit; from then on, the lamp is "out of sight, out of mind". This implies the others "slipped out" without disturbing the lamp.

Having the lamp come into the room after the murder has implications for how the cleaner-upperers managed to exit the room when locking the door.

Either way, they had to leave the room.
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Offline The 411


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:32 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Jools wrote:
I wonder if Drunk Annie will copy Knoxy's court dress sense to impress the Seattle judge?
drin-) drin-)


Jools:

:lol: You forgot the "All you Need is....BOOZE" t-shirt. beer-)
Or well-connected Anne might try wear the "I Get By With A Little Help From My Friends" T-shirt
Mmm, Won't be tried with a little help from my friends,
Mmm, I'm gonna* LIE* with a little help from my friends.


On a serious note, though,...the fact that Anne didn't appear to be drunk (allegedly)...probably speaks to the fact that she's developed a high alcohol tolerance.
The higher her alcohol tolerance is, the more drinks she'd have to consume to "seem drunk."
It matters little how she "seemed" to her friends, if her alcoholic consumption exceeded the legal driving limit.
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:51 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

I can't imagine a sober person driving with three flat tires. Never mind one. Nope. Missy was hoping to clank her way slowly home. And, if she was involved in a hit and run, what was the damage to the body work? Or was it just the tires? Hit by a low level missile?

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:00 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

The 411 wrote:
Jools wrote:
I wonder if Drunk Annie will copy Knoxy's court dress sense to impress the Seattle judge?
drin-) drin-)


Jools:

:lol: You forgot the "All you Need is....BOOZE" t-shirt. beer-)
Or well-connected Anne might try wear the "I Get By With A Little Help From My Friends" T-shirt
Mmm, Won't be tried with a little help from my friends,
Mmm, I'm gonna* LIE* with a little help from my friends.


On a serious note, though,...the fact that Anne didn't appear to be drunk (allegedly)...probably speaks to the fact that she's developed a high alcohol tolerance.
The higher her alcohol tolerance is, the more drinks she'd have to consume to "seem drunk."
It matters little how she "seemed" to her friends, if her alcoholic consumption exceeded the legal driving limit.


Without wishing to imply that AB is necessarily an alcoholic, I would simply note that many alcoholics are highly functional in certain situations. Those who know them may not realize they are drunk; moreover, one's own ability to assess the sobriety or lack thereof of another person can be impacted by how much one has had to drink and hence the extent to which one's own judgement is impaired.

I can well understand the need for the host or hostess of a party from which at least one guest allegedly left in a state of impaired judgement to assert that he or she did not know that the guest was impaired, that the guest showed no signs of impairment and that, had it been otherwise, said host or hostess would have prevented the potentially dangerous driver from getting behind the wheel of a car. But I'm not sure that these kinds of testimonials necessarily carry much weight.

I know someone whose husband died of chronic alcohol poisoning a year ago. In other words, he slowly drank himself to death. His wife did not know he had a drinking problem, or so she said. I think she was probably looking the other way on a lot of things, but so were many people who worked for this man and many of his clients. In retrospect, I had three or four conversations with him when he was drunk (and running a restaurant!), and I can't say I realized it at the time. Growing up as I did in a highly functional alcoholic environment, you would think I would be more atuned to the signs. But this guy had me fooled. I was as shocked as the next person when he died of acute liver failure a week after being admitted to the emergency room. He even managed to bluff his doctors for a couple of days, and did not tell them he had a drinking problem. They finally figured it out; but it was too late. I might find this story hard to believe if I did not know it was true.

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Offline pataz1


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:38 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

bolint wrote:
"I am just wondering how you can fry 3 in the same investigation?"

A little "abuse of power" and there you are. :D


From what I can gather, they smartly pulled the hard drives out of the computers to make an exact copy of them before doing their analysis. If they had simply booted the computer up, the startup sequence can delete and/or over-write data you're looking for, such as a file that has been "deleted".

When you "delete" a file, you're not actually removing the file contents from the drive- you are erasing essentially the "table of contents" entry for the file that says "such and such a file is located on sectors x, y, and z". Until the computer says "Oh, I can re-use those sectors" and writes new data to it, the old contents can still potentially be retrieved via a low-level search of all of the sectors of the drive. (going deeper into forensics and espionage, even if you over-write the content data once with all 0's or 1's, sufficient electrical traces remain that with the proper equipment the data could -still- be recovered).

Regarding what can fail, a hard drive consists of its own circuitboard, the drive head, and the platters. For the drive head(s) and the platters, the analogy of a record turntable isn't too far off. When a drive fails, something could happen either electronically to the circuitboard, or mechanically to the drive motor or heads. If its a circuitboard failure or drive motor failure, skilled and equipped shops can actually either swap the circuitboard, or pull the platters and stick them in an identical drive and pull the data off. However, it gets very difficult to retrieve data if there is a full-blown "head crash", i.e. the drive head(s) actually start grinding into the platters, physically damaging them.

It is difficult to believe that three drives were so physically damaged that these specialty shops would be unable to retrieve data. I believe one of Amanda's defense requests was to have her drive sent to one of these shops to see if a retrieval of data is possible. Many of the shops deal routinely with legal cases where they're required to attempt to retrieve deleted/confidential data that will be used as a part of a lawsuit, so its not like its an unusual request. (as a side-note, the shoppes are clean-room environments at the same level as the plants that make the chips- specs of dust can get into the area between the head(s) and the platters and cause physical damage).

I've had to send several drives out to have data recovered on them. Prices range from a couple hundred quid for a simple circuit board swap on a popular brand drive, to 1500+++ for a platter swap or difficult drive.

Pat
(edit: spelling mistake. I tried to use all three homonyms of "they're")
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Offline Catnip


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Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:18 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

If the forensic software can't "see" the hard drive, then I can understand how that can be translated into "fried drives" for the lay folk, and then seized on as literally true by the eager and the propagandists.

Reporting that something was "fried" does not necessarily mean it actually *was* fried, in other words. (It could be, but not necessarily).

It could just be a case of waiting for an upgrade in the forensic software to come out.
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Offline DLW


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:41 pm

Posts: 623

PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:57 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

What’s this about Anne Bremner being charged with a DUI. I thought she was driving with a concussion. Her Psychiatrist said that she had a concussion, even a brain abnormality. That’s not her fault. I’ve seen football players stager off of a football field, after being conked on the head. They are in worse shape than watching a drunken student return from an all night beer blast hosted by a bunch of rock throwing college students. Criminal defense attorneys are hard to replace. Nobody can describe a crime scene better than Anne. I watched her on the boob tube describing the Meredith Kercher crime scene using a monitor. Amazing stuff. She even found things nobody else could find. I say let her have sufficient time to recoup. After which her doctor can run a battery of brain scans to ensure that whatever brain problem she had before has cleared up. Enough so she can engage in complicated legal matters. or using heavy machinery.
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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:01 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

DLW wrote:
After which her doctor can run a battery of brain scans to ensure that whatever brain problem she had before has cleared up. Enough so she can engage in complicated legal matters. or using heavy machinery.


The possibility that whatever brain problem she had before goes back a *long* way, to before any engagement in complicated legal matters, has not been ruled out (yet).
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Offline SomeAlibi


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:34 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

bolint wrote:
"I am just wondering how you can fry 3 in the same investigation?"

A little "abuse of power" and there you are. :D



My understanding is that they removed the drives and plugged them into a wrong-rated power supply unit which fried them.

We have to call it for what it is - it is shockingly poor handling. They are human beings but this is just crap. I would be all over it in a defence case.

However it is fortunately irrelevant; the net traffic shows there was no surfing activity and Raffaele had only been using the MAC which was intact with the devastating file log evidence. In fact, RS particularly and perhaps Ak I believe are probably likely lucky the other stuff was fried. It would only have added more possibilities for finding circumstancially unhelpful files to their case. Raffaele was a torrent downloader - I suspect he had all sorts of manga and porn (given his college history on "specialist" films and more innocently on the basis he is a previously single young man) on the computers which would have been "unhelpful".

_________________
What it is is spin lent credence because it's from the mouth of a lawyer. We've seen how much gravitas they can carry merely by saying something is or is not so when often they are speaking as much rubbish as anyone else.
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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:39 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Windfall,

Your thesis may have been pre-empted (at least, in part).

In a chapter devoted to knowing the victim, the experts warn against victim deification and victim vilification because both lead to investigative apathy:

Quote:
"If we idealize them, or vilify them, we will not learn who they were. We will not have the context for a complete profile and will not be able to provide investigative direction based on victim-victim and victim-offender connections."

— Brent Turvey and Wayne Petherick, Forensic Victimology: Examining violent crime victims in investigative and legal contexts (2009) [Elsevier 2009] p 196-197



The enormous flood of vilification poured against Curatolo for being homeless is an example that springs easily to mind. A poster here once tried to pretend witness credibility was related to domiciled residency. Even Bongiorno participated in part, by assuming Curatolo, because of his lifestyle, didn't know what the time was.

Coincidentally, the example of deification that Turvey and Petherick examine in their book, the Cynthia Allinger case, uncovered prosecutorial duplicity, misconduct and unethical behaviour. A short version here: [Washington v Rasmussen].

I had thought that the Marriott-Heavey-Bremner Keystone Kops view of the Italian justice system was merely based on an "honest" "naive-American" stereotype, mistaking a Dario Fo play for the real thing.

But looking at the Pierce County shenanigans*, I think that the MHB view of the world is a projection onto others of what is happening much closer to home.

The whole point of deification and vilification is to divert attention away from home base. There is something ironic in MHB doing exactly that.

A further irony: one of the deputy prosecutors drew horns on a picture of their main suspect and posted it up on their office wall. There's the Mignini satanic connection.(!)

Oh, and the "psychic"(!) who described where the body was to be found was anything but.

The Prestons/Grahams don't need to go to Italy to write their book/film.


P.S.
Won't Graham have to sue Preston for breach of copyright and loss of earnings, or the other way round, if one or either of them stop being such leadbellies and get off their chairs and actually output something in the creative arts department?




*E.g., an 11-year-old girl, potential witness for the prosecution, being arrested at school just before being named for the "student of the month" award, because she didn't turn up for an interview, because she didn't have the transportation. On top of that, she was kept in prison over the weekend, instead of the "hoped" no more than 12 to 18 hours period, because the judge was not available that Friday afternoon.
Such a toxic system would make you puke. tu-))
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Offline Emerald


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:40 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

If the pipe had leaked in the past, why wouldn't Raffaele already have a mop? Or at least a tried and true plan of attack on the mess?
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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:47 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

SomeAlibi wrote:


My understanding is that they removed the drives and plugged them into a wrong-rated power supply unit which fried them.



In the film version, this would be shown as:

plugs in cord
<spark>
close-up:
ZAPP!
{small puff of smoke mushrooms up and drifts away out the window}

Off camera:
Person1: Oops!
Their boss: %$^%$ !
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Offline SomeAlibi


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Highscores: 7

PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:50 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Emerald wrote:
If the pipe had leaked in the past, why wouldn't Raffaele already have a mop? Or at least a tried and true plan of attack on the mess?


He'd had it previously fixed by a plumber which is why Mandy said he was "bummed" wa-)) - that's probably it... and of course 5 different cloths (two hanging from the very pipe in question, 3 on top of the cleaning materials), 3 sponges, 2 bath-towels and a partridge in a pear tree tea towel hanging over the handle of the over door were not exactly parsimonious amounts of materials... Red Adair probably wouldn't have fitted in the cupboard...

_________________
What it is is spin lent credence because it's from the mouth of a lawyer. We've seen how much gravitas they can carry merely by saying something is or is not so when often they are speaking as much rubbish as anyone else.
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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:51 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Emerald wrote:
If the pipe had leaked in the past, why wouldn't Raffaele already have a mop? Or at least a tried and true plan of attack on the mess?


Yep.

He'd have the mop and wherewithal even if the pipe hadn't leaked in the past.


---
I've been doing so much Old English strong verbs recently, that I almost wrote lok, with a long oo, instead of leaked. Some typos are more than typos.
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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:10 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

It looks like EnCase can handle different operating systems ([here]), so that reduces the possibility of "frying" being software related. Physical malfunction, as SomeAlibi, indicated.

On the other hand, there is a lively industry in attempting to pre-emptively defeat EnCase:

Quote:
Copies of EnCase have been widely leaked on peer-to-peer file sharing networks, allowing full analysis of the software. Proof-of-concept code exists that can cause EnCase to crash, or even use buffer overflow exploits to run arbitrary code on the investigator's computer. It is known that EnCase is vulnerable to zip bombs, for example 42.zip.

-- Wikipedia


It must be exciting, being in Informatics (and Misinformatics, if you've been seduced by the Dark Side, Lord Vader).
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Offline Macport


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:29 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Yummi beautiful avatar!
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Offline Macport


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:34 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

We can't know from what is presented in the report the likelihood of whether or not the hard drives were "fried" prior to their examination. In other words pataz1's analysis of how these drives would have been examined is correct IMO. Is it stated anywhere specifically that those that were examining the hard drives fried them? As I read it the Massei report states that the hard drives sustained damage but it does not state that that was done while in possession of the police, does it?

Therefore scenarios - AK and RS googled cleaning methods on AK's laptop at the cottage - oops fry it. AK and RS don't know what Meredith may have said on her laptop that night - why risk it, fry it. The two peripheral drives at RS's apartment - they could have been baked long ago (as in broken down and not used) and just sitting around. RS was computer science major yes? Without a description of what "fried" means I wonder if RS didn't just wipe them.
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Offline stilicho


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:17 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Patzu wrote:
h9A7wa9i1K wrote:
In the meantime, Amanda has been doing yoga, reading, and writing letters to her boyfriend who is serving 25 years.

So.. DJ must be out of the picture now?


How is Raffy doing, Last I heard he was poorly and had turned to the man upstairs...


I have little faith in the edited accounts of prison life for AK or RS. They are each in prison for murder with aggravating circumstances (sexual assault). It doesn't matter in what country the jail is located. Prison is not a summer camp even if you do have a ration of a glass of wine with supper. Impressed sailors in the British Navy had a daily grog ration and it certainly didn't make life easy on a warship.

The accounts we read explain the panoramic views, the popularity of the inmate, and a depth of emotional commitment (to "god", their cellmate, everyone writing them) that is frankly absurd. Regardless of what is conveyed, people do not get sent to prison to better themselves. Whether correctly or wrongly convicted, rapist/murderers are at the lowest point on the totem pole in jail. It works that way in North America and there's no reason to believe that it's any different in Italy.

Knox is in prison with what's reported to be a population largely composed of immigrants, and the crimes seem to be connected to drug and prostitution offences. Not sexual assault. Not murder. That makes her situation unique and she'd stick out like a sore thumb. If she isn't under protective custody then she should be and that would require round-the-clock monitoring and probable isolation. Her lawyers would be crazy to allow her into general population as she is reported to be.

As for Sollecito, his situation is even more perilous. For one thing, anyone there--including the officers--know that he has access to money. And he's convicted of a sex crime. Unless he is in isolation then his life is in constant danger.

Let's take the accounts of prison life into perspective. This is not a summer camp for either of them and they will be lucky to get out unscarred either emotionally or physically.
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Offline stilicho


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:36 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Catnip wrote:
The enormous flood of vilification poured against Curatolo for being homeless is an example that springs easily to mind. A poster here once tried to pretend witness credibility was related to domiciled residency. Even Bongiorno participated in part, by assuming Curatolo, because of his lifestyle, didn't know what the time was.


Curatolo is villified along with Capezzali, Quintavalle, and of course Filomena. Kokomani would have been included if his testimony were believed. I still think Kokomani saw them and was unreliable due to the embellishments in his testimony and the fact it was not corroborated.

We also don't get to see all the interviews the police did between 02 NOV 2007 and 05 NOV 2007. Who were all those other eighty people? I still think others saw one or both of them but were unable to provide sufficiently reliable statements.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:59 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

"Is it stated anywhere specifically that those that were examining the hard drives fried them? "

Anne Bremner states that specifically.

Quote:
"Another incredible story surrounds the way investigators handled the computer hard drives they took into evidence. These drives were removed from computers belonging to Meredith Kercher, Amanda Knox, and Raffaele Sollecito.

Somehow the police hooked all of them up wrong and burned out the circuit boards that control the disks.

That of course made the drives unreadable, so they passed them on to a professor at a technical institute. He tried to revive the hard drives by replacing the circuit boards. But if you look on the Internet, you'll see that this is a big no-no. These circuit boards are specific, not just by model but by factory and production run. Unless you happen to get lucky, replacing them won't work and sometimes makes matters worse.

And that is exactly what happened in this case. Only after these hard drives were thoroughly messed up did the authorities send them to a company that specializes in data recovery and has people who know what they are doing. This company was able to recover the contents of two of the hard drives, but the one from Amanda's computer was scrambled, and the company couldn't recover the data.

That is unfortunate for Amanda, because her defense team wants access to the evidence on her computer. The prosecution is trying to argue that Amanda did not get along with Meredith Kercher, but photographs and videos on Amanda's hard drive would show otherwise.

At this point, it looks as if those photos will never been seen. The only remaining option is to send the drive to Toshiba, the manufacturer. This would cost many thousands of dollars, but Amanda's family is willing to shoulder the cost. Unfortunately, the Italian court has denied their request to do this.

So as of now, the hard drive is in police custody, in a partly dismantled condition, and very likely holding evidence that could help clear Amanda Knox. "
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Offline Fiona


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:11 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

How would showing evidence that AK and MK were best buddies help to clear her? We do not know the motive for the killing and we probably never will. We all have a strong desire for a coherent and convincing narrative and this has been evident throughout the discussion of this case, at least since I have been involved. But our wishes are not relevant; and while a good story seems to convince many people: and the lack of one impresses as a big problem, it is not logical to demand it. The best of narratives are only that: they are stories. We accept certain kinds of story more easily than others and we feel we have got to the truth if one of the more usual ones is proffered. But it isn't truth: it is only a story in the end
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Offline stilicho


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:14 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

bolint wrote:
"Is it stated anywhere specifically that those that were examining the hard drives fried them? "

Anne Bremner states that specifically.


Is that on the FOA site?
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:25 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

I found it on the Anne Bremner site.
But it may be at the FOA site, too, as I remember Charlie Wilkes telling basically the same story.
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Offline Macport


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:27 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

bolint wrote:
"Is it stated anywhere specifically that those that were examining the hard drives fried them? "

Anne Bremner states that specifically.

Quote:
"Another incredible story surrounds the way investigators handled the computer hard drives they took into evidence. These drives were removed from computers belonging to Meredith Kercher, Amanda Knox, and Raffaele Sollecito.

Somehow the police hooked all of them up wrong and burned out the circuit boards that control the disks.

That of course made the drives unreadable, so they passed them on to a professor at a technical institute. He tried to revive the hard drives by replacing the circuit boards. But if you look on the Internet, you'll see that this is a big no-no. These circuit boards are specific, not just by model but by factory and production run. Unless you happen to get lucky, replacing them won't work and sometimes makes matters worse.

And that is exactly what happened in this case. Only after these hard drives were thoroughly messed up did the authorities send them to a company that specializes in data recovery and has people who know what they are doing. This company was able to recover the contents of two of the hard drives, but the one from Amanda's computer was scrambled, and the company couldn't recover the data.

That is unfortunate for Amanda, because her defense team wants access to the evidence on her computer. The prosecution is trying to argue that Amanda did not get along with Meredith Kercher, but photographs and videos on Amanda's hard drive would show otherwise.

At this point, it looks as if those photos will never been seen. The only remaining option is to send the drive to Toshiba, the manufacturer. This would cost many thousands of dollars, but Amanda's family is willing to shoulder the cost. Unfortunately, the Italian court has denied their request to do this.

So as of now, the hard drive is in police custody, in a partly dismantled condition, and very likely holding evidence that could help clear Amanda Knox. "

I think this highlights my point perfectly. Anne Bremner writes in an article that the hard drives were fried and she is absolutely creditable and unbiased. That lays the ground work for the whole US media to pick it up and all of a sudden it's one of those phrases we all use "well the investigators fried the hard drives so . . .".
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Offline Emerald


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:34 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Those hard drives cannot change the physical evidence at the crime scene. It's a diversionary tactic.
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Offline Macport


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:35 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

I mean there are issues of differences in standard electrical currency between countries but computer power supplies are set up for the most part so that regardless of what goes into them they only supply a fixed amount coming out to the drives. All PC's and laptops are set up to use Molex and mini-plug connections. That seems so elementary that I don't see an investigative unit screwing that up.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:37 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

"We all have a strong desire for a coherent and convincing narrative"

Yes, it may happen that we'll never have one.

I remember the Hans Reiser case. There was no body, few evidence, though from the beginning more than in the Scott Peterson case.
He was convicted for first degree murder and a sentence of 25 years to life loomed.
Then he led the police to the place where he had dug her wife's body and he was granted a late plea bargain of second degree murder and 15 years to life in exchange for waiving his appeal right and telling all.
Then we knew the narrative.
I couldn't have found it out in a life (apart, of course, from killing his wife and hiding the body).

But the motive is still not clear.
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Offline Macport


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:37 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Emerald wrote:
Those hard drives cannot change the physical evidence at the crime scene. It's a diversionary tactic.

Exactly. Obfuscate, obfuscate, obfuscate.
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Offline Macport


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:38 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

bolint wrote:
I found it on the Anne Bremner site.
But it may be at the FOA site, too, as I remember Charlie Wilkes telling basically the same story.

Another very believable character.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:40 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

"I think this highlights my point perfectly. Anne Bremner writes in an article that the hard drives were fried and she is absolutely creditable and unbiased. That lays the ground work for the whole US media to pick it up and all of a sudden it's one of those phrases we all use "well the investigators fried the hard drives so . . ."."

We can easily say "Oh, it's only Anne Bremner's spin".
But where is the version of the police?
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Offline Macport


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:52 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

bolint wrote:
"I think this highlights my point perfectly. Anne Bremner writes in an article that the hard drives were fried and she is absolutely creditable and unbiased. That lays the ground work for the whole US media to pick it up and all of a sudden it's one of those phrases we all use "well the investigators fried the hard drives so . . ."."

We can easily say "Oh, it's only Anne Bremner's spin".
But where is the version of the police?

The police discover these drives were wiped and they moved on to document other evidence. I don't view it as their duty to explain away everything they discovered or everything that might have been done by the perps. Their job is to focus on the evidence that is hard and firm. It would be my guess that they had little knowledge of what spin was being put out in the media all over the world while they're simply trying to pull together their case. Show me a creditable source describing how the drives were destroyed and we can move forward with a dialogue about it.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:03 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

"Show me a creditable source describing how the drives were destroyed and we can move forward with a dialogue about it."

Massei Report (p21):

"an expert report on the computers of the accused was requested, the memories of which were found to have been damaged at the time of the analysis of the supports carried out by the Postal Police, such that the hard drives could not be duplicated/cloned for subsequent examination."
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Offline Popper


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:26 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Fast Pete wrote:
Popper wrote:
Fast Pete wrote:
1) Does anyone know in what part of the house on Garibaldi Sollecito's apartment was located? I am looking at my shots (not all posted) and seem to be seeing six apartments, three on each floor, back and front. Is there a floor plan anywhere?
....


I think it was on the ground floor.


Wow Popper. That surprised me. The ground floor front is narrow on each side of the stairwell, rather dark, and it would get some street noise with windows and/or shutters open in the summer. Maybe Sollecito was at the back. There might have been a slight view down from there. Behind is a modern institute, a part of the university.


I confirm all the sources I have seen indicate "piano terra" which is ground floor. Possibly the back but cannot confirm - will look. The indication of ground floor includes several articles and even the Massei report when talking about mobile phones (around page 347 original) "...Il punto di arrivo dell'indagine compiuta sul posto dal Consulente è quella di una cattiva ricezione tout court all'interno della abitazione, che è ubicata a piano terra ed è deliminata da spesse mura esterne, laddove ottimale è indicata la ricezione dei segnali all'altezza della porta di ingresso, come a suo tempo evidenziato dall'ispettore capo Latella che parimenti si era occupato della verifica dei segnali, senza in ogni caso accedere all'interno di alcuna delle abitazioni interessate...".

Sollecito's flat is at times indicated being (Corso/Via) Garibaldi 110 in other occasions Garibaldi 30 (even in RS' appeal). If I remember well I think 110 is right as that was the one indicated always at the beginning of the case.
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Offline SomeAlibi


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:38 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

bolint wrote:
"Show me a creditable source describing how the drives were destroyed and we can move forward with a dialogue about it."

Massei Report (p21):

"an expert report on the computers of the accused was requested, the memories of which were found to have been damaged at the time of the analysis of the supports carried out by the Postal Police, such that the hard drives could not be duplicated/cloned for subsequent examination."



This is a fact of the case - it was a serious procedural screw up and we should mark it as so and there's no other extra issues around it. However, it is not material to the prosecution case because of the ISP data and the MAC. The defence's case is that Amanda's computer would have had lots of happy smiley pictures of her and Meredith on it. This is about 0.001% relevant to the case and wouldn't change the evidence on which guilt has been predicated. Total fluff.

However *someone* got an alimighty bollocking for wrecking the drives and quite rightly so. That could have materially screwed up the application of justice on a case and is incompetent hardware handling. Just remember dear FOA that the evidence against Amanda and Raffaele is based on software analysis done by completely different people so the one has no relevance to the other as much as it is a highly prevelant meme in certain advocates of the pro-defence side to suggest that when X screws up that it means that unconnected party Y is more likely to also. In legal circles we call this form of argument "specious bollocks".

_________________
What it is is spin lent credence because it's from the mouth of a lawyer. We've seen how much gravitas they can carry merely by saying something is or is not so when often they are speaking as much rubbish as anyone else.


Last edited by SomeAlibi on Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Emerald


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:51 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

The yellow bar to install missing plugins displays when PMF is opened. Which are required?
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Offline SomeAlibi


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:53 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Emerald wrote:
The yellow bar to install missing plugins displays when PMF is opened. Which are required?


Well your internet browser is telling you the ones that it is offering you are required... that's why you get the pop-up. There's no spam pop-ups of inappropriate stuff from PMF!

_________________
What it is is spin lent credence because it's from the mouth of a lawyer. We've seen how much gravitas they can carry merely by saying something is or is not so when often they are speaking as much rubbish as anyone else.
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Offline Macport


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:55 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Emerald wrote:
The yellow bar to install missing plugins displays when PMF is opened. Which are required?

Earl Grey has used a Windows Media Player Plug-in upstream that may be causing that.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:10 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Emerald wrote:
The yellow bar to install missing plugins displays when PMF is opened. Which are required?


Is it still doing it Emerald?

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline Emerald


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:17 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Thanks! It's fixed.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:42 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Emerald wrote:
Thanks! It's fixed.


No problem. As Mac suggested, it was the windows media player Earl Grey embedded. I've now edited his post and exchanged it for the Youtube player.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline Popper


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:58 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

stilicho wrote:
Patzu wrote:
h9A7wa9i1K wrote:
In the meantime, Amanda has been doing yoga, reading, and writing letters to her boyfriend who is serving 25 years.

So.. DJ must be out of the picture now?


How is Raffy doing, Last I heard he was poorly and had turned to the man upstairs...


I have little faith in the edited accounts of prison life for AK or RS. They are each in prison for murder with aggravating circumstances (sexual assault). It doesn't matter in what country the jail is located. Prison is not a summer camp even if you do have a ration of a glass of wine with supper. Impressed sailors in the British Navy had a daily grog ration and it certainly didn't make life easy on a warship.

The accounts we read explain the panoramic views, the popularity of the inmate, and a depth of emotional commitment (to "god", their cellmate, everyone writing them) that is frankly absurd. Regardless of what is conveyed, people do not get sent to prison to better themselves. Whether correctly or wrongly convicted, rapist/murderers are at the lowest point on the totem pole in jail. It works that way in North America and there's no reason to believe that it's any different in Italy.

Knox is in prison with what's reported to be a population largely composed of immigrants, and the crimes seem to be connected to drug and prostitution offences. Not sexual assault. Not murder. That makes her situation unique and she'd stick out like a sore thumb. If she isn't under protective custody then she should be and that would require round-the-clock monitoring and probable isolation. Her lawyers would be crazy to allow her into general population as she is reported to be.

As for Sollecito, his situation is even more perilous. For one thing, anyone there--including the officers--know that he has access to money. And he's convicted of a sex crime. Unless he is in isolation then his life is in constant danger.

Let's take the accounts of prison life into perspective. This is not a summer camp for either of them and they will be lucky to get out unscarred either emotionally or physically.


I agree prison is not a summer camp, but I completely disagree with the assessment of physical risk: AK and RS risks in prison are negligible. This is a point for which AK and RS are VERY lucky, whether or not they have committed the crime: they are jailed in Perugia and Terni, two relatively small and provincial prisons.

Italian prisons have their own problems, especially in big cities (overcrowding), occasional violence stories and certainly lots of suicides, but ARE FAR LESS RISKY than US prisons (no idea about Canada). The same (less risky than US) could be said about any Western European prison system.

In the US a 2007 survey estimated that 60,000 inmates were abused sexually only in the last 12 months (4.5% of total jail population m+w) by fellow prisoners or guards and that 20% of total population was abused at some point during their time in prison (men's prisons, imagine women) http://www.justdetention.org/en/factshe ... Basics.pdf

AK and RS risk in prison is made lower by young age and the fact they are "better known" so any act against them would be made immediately public and investigated. AK risk is even lower because she is a woman and female sections of prisons are rarely overcrowded.

Some risk remains, they are prisons not kindergartens, but negligible.
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Offline Pelerine


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:11 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

bolint wrote:
"Is it stated anywhere specifically that those that were examining the hard drives fried them? "

Anne Bremner states that specifically.

Quote:
"


That is unfortunate for Amanda, because her defense team wants access to the evidence on her computer. The prosecution is trying to argue that Amanda did not get along with Meredith Kercher, but photographs and videos on Amanda's hard drive would show otherwise.

At this point, it looks as if those photos will never been seen.


Friends? - what an impudent statement!

excerpt from Amandas 'notorious' email:

....but i assumed that perhaps Meredith was having
menstrual issues and hadnt cleaned up yet.

Would any girl/woman speaks like this about a murdered friend?
Would any girl/woman write like this to I don't know how many 20-40 people who altogether do not have known Meredith?
Would any girl/woman mention like this to other people?


Just an additional attack - perhaps because of Merediths complaining about Amandas poor cleaning habits. I always found this extremly ugly and vicious. And this speculation about the vaseline - I am convinced all invented from Amanda.
'My friend Meredith' - Amandas mouth should freeze up for ever!

_________________
r-(( Rest in Peace Meredith Kercher r-((
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Offline DJLawless


Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 5:47 am

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:21 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

DJLawless wrote:
Regarding Anne Bremner and the DUI; Corrina said:

Sorry to go off topic here, but this pisses me off to no end. Or it will, rather, if she gets away with it. Guess it wouldn't count for anything if some concerned citizen of the world contacted the sheriff's office to ask that she be treated just like any other drunk jerk who thought it would be a good idea to get behind the wheel (and got caught)[/

Well Corrina,
I (and I'm sure many others) agree with you on this Bremner offense. It may be of no consequence, but I did send an email to the Sheriff's Office:


August 11, 2010
King County Sheriff’s Office
516 Third Avenue , Room W-150
Seattle, WA 98104-2312
Sheriff@kingcounty.gov
Kings County Sheriff's site

Sheriff Sue Rahr,
Please be aware that the case of Anne Bremner driving while intoxicated has attracted world-wide attention, and that Ms Bremner’s case is being monitored by and reported on Web sites with international readership.
It is in the best interests of all concerned citizens, and not just in Washington State, that penalties for drunken driving are applied in a like manner regardless of the notoriety of the driver.
Thank you very much,
A concerned citizen of Ohio

Regarding the Anne Bremner DUI, and after sending the above email to King County Sheriff; I was both surprised and impressed by the email response I received (Aug 18, 2010 7:56 pm) from Sgt John Urquhart with the Sheriff's office:

Sheriff Rahr asked me to respond.

Ms. Bremner was charged today with one count of DUI.

We agree everyone should be treated equally when it comes to DUI, or any other alleged crime for that matter.

Sgt. John Urquhart
Sheriff's Office Administration
King County Sheriff's Office


And probably this has been pointed out by others about Anne's arrest: she has vehemently declared her innocence; she claimed the police abused her; and she sent out a mass email to her aquaintences that detailed her (innocent) side of the story. Sure does sound familiar....

_________________
r-(( Rest in Peace Meredith Kercher r-((
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:26 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

SomeAlibi wrote:
"The defence's case is that Amanda's computer would have had lots of happy smiley pictures of her and Meredith on it. This is about 0.001% relevant to the case and wouldn't change the evidence on which guilt has been predicated."

The Knox defence no longer seems to be interested in the hard drive, at least I could not find anything in their appeal, as the judge did not accept the "bad relation" motive. Bremner's writing is an earlier piece.

The Sollecito defence, however, is still requesting an expert examination of what caused the damage in the hard drives of Amanda,'s, Meredith's and Raffaele's computers. This latter is his second laptop (the ASUS L300D).


Last edited by bolint on Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Emerald


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:27 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Quote:
In what police later would describe as a sadistic frenzy, the girls were gang-raped for more than an hour. They were forced to perform oral sex. They were kicked, teeth knocked out and hair pulled out and ribs broken. A red nylon belt, with an attacker tugging at each end, was pulled so tightly around Ertman's neck the belt snapped. Shoelaces were used to strangle Pena........

On death row, Cantu, now 35, was classified among the best-behaving inmates.


This guy was executed in Texas yesterday. He's guilty. No doubt about it.

Lately, there have been articles stating the same thing about Amanda.

BTW, I'm 100% anti death penalty.
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Offline fine


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:39 am   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

stilicho wrote:

* * *

On the other hand, to believe that Knox and Sollecito were not lying, you have to invent stories about them misremembering, denied food and water, beaten into submission, and being so fucking high on dope that they just blacked out entirely for a period of almost half a day.

sh-))


______________________

Hmmm. Amnesia and "lost time." Maybe, Post Alien Abduction Syndrome? wikipedia

And that "mystery mark" on Amanda's neck..............

"I was the first one to make contact with the victims of the suck-suck phenomena. In spite of my 22 years old at that time and being completely skeptic, I started to notice changes the medicine failed to explain. The burns on the victims' skin were almost always on the neck and the breast,....as if it was a little bite, but it wasn't". the suck-suck phenomena





///
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Offline Catnip


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Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:50 am   Post subject: Fried Translations   

"Suck suck" is a translation error. :)

It actually is: "the hoo-ha phenomemon: my stream-of-consciousness technique is better than your stream-of-consciousness technique, remember? I'll suck your memories out the long way, if you don't behave..."





Following on from the “total fluff” observation about fried drives, does using fried translations count as incompetence, or is that just another case of invisible irony?

What made me think of that was the part of the Mignini trial “motivations” stored at DocStocs.

It's a little bit cute: The "known spices, yes, yes, yes! no, no, no, no" is straight out of a Dario Fo play. :)

Attachment:
docstoc_m2_2.JPG




“Retired FBI” guy had a link to it on his page. I wondered why it is so hard to work out how fried fried translations are. Perhaps there’s nothing to compare with, as no-one can tell (in the select group).

So an example might help.






Example 1
Original:
Quote:

The Ridiculous Case Against Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito

A blog looking at the ridiculous case in Italy against two innocent suspects: Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito

[Retired FBI Agent]




becomes (English > Italian > Polish > Japanese > Chinese > Czech > Dutch > Italian > English):

Fried translation:
Quote:
Raffaele Sollecito Amandanokkusu interesting things

Innocent suspects that there are two: Amandanokkusu and Raffaele Sollecito, looking for an interesting blog in Italy


“nokkusu” is, of course, the Japanese pronunciation of “Knox”.


By the way, the repetition of the word “ridiculous” over-eggs the pudding: it makes you look as if you’re not confident about what you’re saying when you say it like that. If the reader was not persuaded by the first occurrence of the word, a second usage will have even less impact, and may even have the opposite effect, with the reader asking: “Why is he repeating that word for?”

Plus also, saying “innocent suspects” is like saying “cooked raw”, since the innocence/guilt stage comes after the suspect stage.





Example 2

Another dish: the beginning of the BG cut-and-paste cliché job from a couple of months ago, posted on the same blog:

Original:
Quote:
Wednesday, June 16, 2010

Why I Believe a Mafia Supergrass Will Help Clear Foxy Knoxy's Name
Copy of Aviello letter can be read here.

By Bob Graham

Rarely has a murder investigation been so mired in controversy, prejudice and downright incompetence as the inquiry into the death of British student Meredith Kercher. Yet this week, three years after she was killed in her Italian digs, once more the case took a dramatic twist as a Mafia mobster emerged to add to the obfuscation and intrigue. Gangster Luciano Aviello, a jailed supergrass, claims it is not Amanda 'Foxy Knoxy' Knox and her former boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito - who are serving jail sentences of 26 and 25 years respectively for the crime - who are guilty, but his own brother, Antonio. In almost two years since I began investigating this murder for a documentary, I have learned to be intensely sceptical of the many 'new' developments that have occurred. And this latest is no exception.


Read rest of the article here.
Posted by Ray Turner at 7:29 PM


[Post]




becomes (English > Italian > Greek > Russian > Hebrew > Hindi > Welsh > Latvian > Chinese > Italian > English)


Fried Translation:
Quote:
Wednesday, June 16, 2010, which

Because I think it helped open letter to the Mafia Supergrass Aviello Name
Copy Knoxy music can be found here.

Bob Graham

Rarely involved murder investigation, so controversial, biased and inefficient, the death of British student Meredith thorough inspection. But this week, three years after the murder of the Mafia Italian Mafia, once mining is a dramatic change in the chaos and conspiracy. Questions Aviello killer Luciano, Supergrass prison Knoxy Amanda Fox>> of Knox's ex-girlfriend Raffaele Sollecito - - responsible for the service of his crimes 26 years in prison and 25, respectively, but their brother, Antonio. Almost two years after the death of a file, I started checking, I learned a lot of questions, as updated and the latest is no exception ..


Read the rest of the article here.
At 19:29 Posted by Rattner







Useful phrases noted for future use:
  • “Knoxy music” (for those of a certain age)
  • “A change in the chaos and conspiracy” (and still signifying nothing)
  • “I started checking, I learned a lot of questions” (the beginning of wisdom)



And: “Rarely involved murder investigation, so controversial, biased and inefficient” could almost stand as a motto for the Fried Translation Crew.


P.S.
Oh, and also: this experiment shows that there’s another thing Italy has given the world – the word “Mafia”. Note how it survived the translation washing machine process intact, and even multiplied, just like the real thing. :)


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Offline Pelerine


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   


_________________
r-(( Rest in Peace Meredith Kercher r-((
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Offline stint7


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

capealadin wrote:
I can't imagine a sober person driving with three flat tires. Never mind one. Nope. Missy was hoping to clank her way slowly home. And, if she was involved in a hit and run, what was the damage to the body work? Or was it just the tires? Hit by a low level missile?


My thoughts exactly:

1) From what I can gather from *limited, (very)* information so reluctantly made available to public so far, the damage to the car was primarily to the *undercarriage* and the aforementioned three flat tires.

2) Much more akin to running full speed over a median strip or high curb at illegal speeds than a (long after the fact 'remembered') hit and run.

3) If it was a "hit and run" as Ms Bremner claimed (notably *much after* the incident and arrest), possibly Ms Bremner's highly talented (and compen$ated) legion$ of legal talent will make up a Courtroom re-enactment.

A) This crafted re-enactment will show a *very* low slung and profiled 'vehicle', driven by a very sinister grimy, grinning one armed man, impacting her vehicle in a T-Boning manner so that the hit and run guy passed completely under her vehicle causing the severe undercarriage damage before coming out the other side and disappearing into Anne's NorthWest USA 'never never land'.

B) The re-enactment subtitles state that the sinister looking one armed hit and run driver is also being sought after by OJ Simpson as the 'real' perpetrator of his wife's horrific murder.
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Offline stint7


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Few More observations about Bremner Case

Of course the video of the arrest would certainly show at least a few paint scrapes of this unique extremely low slung custom constructed, one of a kind, mystery hit and run 'vehicle' her Dream Team$$ reenactment shows

1) Oh, I forgot, Ms Bremmner's fully $taffed legal legion$$ have already sealed that away by utilizing some other legal technocrat crap that they are well practiced in using for all the other potential intoxicated killers they defend so graciou$$$ly and allow to continue to imperil us all.

2) In the *over two months* that it took to overcome Ms Bremner's legal shennigans sufficiently to follow the 'straightforward' arrest with charges, I am sure Sheriff Rahr's ( fewer, and much le$$ compen$ated Investigators) retraced the routes from the "legal gals only wine tasting" to the scene of arrest looking for obliterated and mashed medians and/or curbs.

A) Oh, I again forgot, lips are also 'legally locked' about this and nearly every other detail usually available to unwashed masses of the public.

B) All this, justified in legal customs, lest we, the unwashed masses, per chance (logically) conclude that Ms Bremner is anything less than a chosen mortal awaiting an inevitable Mother Theresa type canonization to sainthood.

3) Finally, every DUI convicted Joe Blow Beer drinker in the Northwest, represented in his defense only by a single significantly overworked underpaid Public Defender is taking note of Bremner's tactics.

A) Joe's (nightmare) dream team type Public Defender representation rarely is able to do much more than "read-'em and plead 'em" while walking to the Court with an armful of cases he is seeing for the first time.

B) Several "Jailed Joe's" anxiously volunteer their assistance in locating the one arm driver and his one of a kind submarine similar staff car as also being involved in their 'infraction

tu-))
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Offline windfall


Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:22 pm

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:15 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Catnip wrote:
Windfall,

Your thesis may have been pre-empted (at least, in part).

In a chapter devoted to knowing the victim, the experts warn against victim deification and victim vilification because both lead to investigative apathy:

Quote:
"If we idealize them, or vilify them, we will not learn who they were. We will not have the context for a complete profile and will not be able to provide investigative direction based on victim-victim and victim-offender connections."

— Brent Turvey and Wayne Petherick, Forensic Victimology: Examining violent crime victims in investigative and legal contexts (2009) [Elsevier 2009] p 196-197



The enormous flood of vilification poured against Curatolo for being homeless is an example that springs easily to mind. A poster here once tried to pretend witness credibility was related to domiciled residency. Even Bongiorno participated in part, by assuming Curatolo, because of his lifestyle, didn't know what the time was.

Coincidentally, the example of deification that Turvey and Petherick examine in their book, the Cynthia Allinger case, uncovered prosecutorial duplicity, misconduct and unethical behaviour. A short version here: [Washington v Rasmussen].

I had thought that the Marriott-Heavey-Bremner Keystone Kops view of the Italian justice system was merely based on an "honest" "naive-American" stereotype, mistaking a Dario Fo play for the real thing.

But looking at the Pierce County shenanigans*, I think that the MHB view of the world is a projection onto others of what is happening much closer to home.

The whole point of deification and vilification is to divert attention away from home base. There is something ironic in MHB doing exactly that.

A further irony: one of the deputy prosecutors drew horns on a picture of their main suspect and posted it up on their office wall. There's the Mignini satanic connection.(!)

Oh, and the "psychic"(!) who described where the body was to be found was anything but.

The Prestons/Grahams don't need to go to Italy to write their book/film.


P.S.
Won't Graham have to sue Preston for breach of copyright and loss of earnings, or the other way round, if one or either of them stop being such leadbellies and get off their chairs and actually output something in the creative arts department?




*E.g., an 11-year-old girl, potential witness for the prosecution, being arrested at school just before being named for the "student of the month" award, because she didn't turn up for an interview, because she didn't have the transportation. On top of that, she was kept in prison over the weekend, instead of the "hoped" no more than 12 to 18 hours period, because the judge was not available that Friday afternoon.
Such a toxic system would make you puke. tu-))


Thanks for that, Catnip. You don't have to be too long in academia to realise there is not much new under the sun. Also thanks to those coming forward with book titles, jacket artwork, and everything else. I am overwhelmed by your generosity and interest in my research. ;)

Oh, and thanks to Macport for reminding me of the case that had slipped my memory - Louise Woodward. Apparently she was named "most notorious criminal convicted in Massachusetts" by Boston law magazine Exhibit A some years ago. Three years ago she was back in the Daily Mail for planning to have children! Interesting that part of the case seemed to hinge on a "lost in translation" issue - she referred to "popping the baby onto the bed". Implies putting something down perhaps swiftly but certainly not with any degree of violence. "Popping", of course, has a different meaning in the US. "see you later..."
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Offline stint7


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

More Observations about Counsellor Bremner's high profile case:

1) Ms Bremner has had notable and well self-publicized (self-aggrandizing ?) direct past Seattle local legal involvement in "Police Abuse" matters.
2) She has also frequently, prolifically, and in very Public pulpits, severely castigated Italian Police for Incompetence and abuse.
3) Therefore, I take particular note of her (again much after the incident) latest claims of police misconduct during her recent arrest.

A) Did the Police ("mama mia") per chance cuff her twice behind her head ??
B) Could this possibly contribute to her not reported until much later, difficulty remembering (selective) facts and her *much* later reported traumatic brain injury??
C) Did the Officer have long Brunette hair, yet could not be identified when sitting very close by in a very small Courtroom
D) Is there a video *available to the public* that will negate or unequivocally validate any possibility of exaggerated, long after incident reported, allegations by Ms Bremner ??
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Offline Earl Grey


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

piktor wrote:
stint7, SomeAlibi, Earl Grey:

Thank you for your generous words. We should never pass up an opportunity for incisive ridiculosity!


I agree, Piktor. People like Mary H, Anne Bremner, etc., who spew vile propaganda in support of a convicted murderess and to the detriment of the memory of the true --and only -- victim should have their noses tweaked and tweaked often.
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Offline TomM


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

stilicho wrote:
*** Whether correctly or wrongly convicted, rapist/murderers are at the lowest point on the totem pole in jail. It works that way in North America and there's no reason to believe that it's any different in Italy.***

Actually, that position is occupied by pedophiles. Cops convicted of crime also need special protection in prison.
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Offline Earl Grey


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Michael wrote:
Emerald wrote:
Thanks! It's fixed.


No problem. As Mac suggested, it was the windows media player Earl Grey embedded. I've now edited his post and exchanged it for the Youtube player.


My apologies. It seems I'm all thumbs when it comes to anything that's slightly technological.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

bolint wrote:
"Is it stated anywhere specifically that those that were examining the hard drives fried them? "

Anne Bremner states that specifically.

Quote:
"Another incredible story surrounds the way investigators handled the computer hard drives they took into evidence. These drives were removed from computers belonging to Meredith Kercher, Amanda Knox, and Raffaele Sollecito.

Somehow the police hooked all of them up wrong and burned out the circuit boards that control the disks.
That of course made the drives unreadable, so they passed them on to a professor at a technical institute. He tried to revive the hard drives by replacing the circuit boards. But if you look on the Internet, you'll see that this is a big no-no. These circuit boards are specific, not just by model but by factory and production run. Unless you happen to get lucky, replacing them won't work and sometimes makes matters worse.

And that is exactly what happened in this case. Only after these hard drives were thoroughly messed up did the authorities send them to a company that specializes in data recovery and has people who know what they are doing. This company was able to recover the contents of two of the hard drives, but the one from Amanda's computer was scrambled, and the company couldn't recover the data.

That is unfortunate for Amanda, because her defense team wants access to the evidence on her computer. The prosecution is trying to argue that Amanda did not get along with Meredith Kercher, but photographs and videos on Amanda's hard drive would show otherwise.

At this point, it looks as if those photos will never been seen. The only remaining option is to send the drive to Toshiba, the manufacturer. This would cost many thousands of dollars, but Amanda's family is willing to shoulder the cost. Unfortunately, the Italian court has denied their request to do this.

So as of now, the hard drive is in police custody, in a partly dismantled condition, and very likely holding evidence that could help clear Amanda Knox. "



I am willing to bet that AB's one and only source for this is Chris Mellas. It contains several unsupported allegations, all of which lead to a totally unsupported and even ludicrous conclusion: that it is very likely the computer holds evidence that could help clear Amanda Knox.

First of all, notice that the police are held responsible for "somehow" hooking the computers up wrong and frying the circuit boards. Second, they tried to fix the problem by doing something that according to the Internet (!) can make things worse. What we don't know is whether or not their attempted fix did make things worse. Instead, we are left with this vague, sneaky and unsupported notion (the fix doesn't work and "sometimes" makes matters worse). Well, did this fix make things worse or not? We don't know; we are told that that is what happened in this case; but that assertion is unsupported. It serves the purpose, however, of indirectly and on a subconscous level supporting the wild claim at the end.

Third, the defense may have wanted to show that MK and AK got along, but how do we know the contents of the AK's computer would support this? If there are photos and/or videos on her computer showing the love fest that was her relationship with MK, our only evidence for this must come from AK herself. She must not have sent any of this digital evidence to anyone or downloaded it anywhere for viewing by friends and family. Otherwise, we would have evidence: emails to friends with attachments, uploads on personal blogs, etc. Why is there not a trace of this evidence? AK shared lots with the folks back home, didn't she? What about that MySpace page? It may look like "those photos will never be seen" to AB and Chris Mellas, but to me it looks more like those photos may well never have existed. I am unwilling to take this as an article of faith in light of the source(s).

Fourth, if indeed the request to send the drive to Toshiba has been denied, there must be a reason for this. What is it? It would be nice if AB the lawyer would summarize the request made and the grounds for denial.... but no such luck. Now I am scouring the text written by AB in vain for evidence that the computer, in police custordy, "very likely" contains evidence that could help clear AK. Not that this evidence, if it existed, would help clear AK, mind you. That is just another gaping hole in this incredibly dishonest and manipulative "argument".

But I do agree with AB on one point: When video and photographic material exists and can be shown to exist, it should be released. A pending matter right here in the state of Washington springs immediately to mind!

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Offline Earl Grey


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

stint7 wrote:
More Observations about Counsellor Bremner's high profile case:


A) Did the Police ("mama mia") per chance cuff her twice behind her head ??
B) Could this possibly contribute to her not reported until much later, difficulty remembering (selective) facts and her *much* later reported traumatic brain injury??
C) Did the Officer have long Brunette hair, yet could not be identified when sitting very close by in a very small Courtroom
D) Is there a video *available to the public* that will negate or unequivocally validate any possibility of exaggerated, long after incident reported, allegations by Ms Bremner ??


Terrific questions, Stint.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Earl Grey wrote:
stint7 wrote:
More Observations about Counsellor Bremner's high profile case:


A) Did the Police ("mama mia") per chance cuff her twice behind her head ??
B) Could this possibly contribute to her not reported until much later, difficulty remembering (selective) facts and her *much* later reported traumatic brain injury??
C) Did the Officer have long Brunette hair, yet could not be identified when sitting very close by in a very small Courtroom
D) Is there a video *available to the public* that will negate or unequivocally validate any possibility of exaggerated, long after incident reported, allegations by Ms Bremner ??


Terrific questions, Stint.



Here's another terrific question, with a terrific answer provided by someone with legal expertise, from the comments under the pi.com article about the DUI charge against AB:

Quote:
Posted by thezorg at 8/19/2010 7:50 a.m.

macker wrote, "I would love for a real legal professional to comment on why someone would amend to jane/john doe, when it's well known it's already them. I can only assume it's so a court search online will show that name. You can get off on a charge and have it expunged, but it's very hard to actually remove you from the court system search. It's almost as if the most you can do is have your record sealed."

I don't know about her case in particular, but I can tell you what I know about this generally. The first story that I read in the PI about this was "Anne Bremner, celebrity lawyer, goes 'Jane Doe' to keep her arrest records private. That story detailed Bremners efforts - before she was charged - to seal any case against her.

Let's look at the timeline because it's important. Unfortunately, the articles in the PI aren't very clear about the details, but I can fill in some of the blanks from experience, so bear with me.

She was arrested on June 4th. Incident to that arrest, she was taken to a holding cell at a police department or jail (the article doesn't say) and processed. The press caught wind of it and made a public records request for her arrest information 3 days later, which would be June 7th. A public records request can be by letter. It need not comply with any particular format.

"Jane's" attorneys then filed a motion for an injunction. That's a civil motion in which they asked a judge to block the public records request or to redact records to show only "Jane Doe" and not to identify Bremner specifically.

In response, one might say "in retaliation", Stafford Frey, "Jane's" firm, made a request for the arresting officer's personnel file and every incident report he'd ever written.

All of this legal wrangling was done before any charges were filed. As a general matter, an individual's police reports and what is called "non-conviction information" is protected by privacy laws. But that protection goes away when charges are filed - at least as to the matters covered by the charges.

On August 18th, the King County prosecutor filed charges against Bremner. Criminal cases are public as a matter of law. That principle is rooted in constitutional principles and is intended to protect the accused against secret trials, something that has historically been the source of great evils such as "star chambers" and the like.

The articles don't seem to shed much light on what happened with the public records requests, or where the motion for injunction stands, but the long and short of it is that I don't think that a judge can lawfully redact a defendant's name from a criminal case, and seal all proceedings to protect the anonymity of a defendant just to avoid "embarrassment".

As to expungement, there is no such thing in Washington. By law, a criminal conviction cannot be removed from the record. What can be done is (a) change the record from "guilty" to "not guilty"; or (b) seal the record. Both options require that at least 5 years (for misdemeanors) or 10 years (for felonies) have passed since all requirements of sentence have been completed and there are no new convictions. So she's a long ways from being able to seek those remedies. First, she has to be convicted.

Under certain circumstances, it can be possible to get an order that law enforcement agencies destroy investigative records, but the circumstances are very limited. As a general rule, non-conviction data is private anyway and doesn't (or shouldn't) turn up on employer background checks, etc. So there is less need to expunge or restrict it.

So far as I can tell from the articles Bremner's attorneys were taking a run at expunging, sealing, or whatever with the pre-charge, non-conviction records. Since she's just been charged it remains to be seen what they'll do now that the case is in the public record.

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Offline H9


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Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:37 am

Posts: 1716

Highscores: 161

PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Earl Grey wrote:
stint7 wrote:
More Observations about Counsellor Bremner's high profile case:


A) Did the Police ("mama mia") per chance cuff her twice behind her head ??
B) Could this possibly contribute to her not reported until much later, difficulty remembering (selective) facts and her *much* later reported traumatic brain injury??
C) Did the Officer have long Brunette hair, yet could not be identified when sitting very close by in a very small Courtroom
D) Is there a video *available to the public* that will negate or unequivocally validate any possibility of exaggerated, long after incident reported, allegations by Ms Bremner ??


Terrific questions, Stint.



Ahhh, well, yes.. but the real question is, "Can Anne Bremner sing?" Top marks to anyone finding a clip of Anne singing (youtube perhaps? myspace?)
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Offline fine


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   



///
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Offline DJLawless


Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 5:47 am

Posts: 140

Location: Ohio USA

Highscores: 1

PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Fast Pete wrote:
Popper wrote:
Fast Pete wrote:
1) Does anyone know in what part of the house on Garibaldi Sollecito's apartment was located? I am looking at my shots (not all posted) and seem to be seeing six apartments, three on each floor, back and front. Is there a floor plan anywhere?
....


I think it was on the ground floor.


Wow Popper. That surprised me. The ground floor front is narrow on each side of the stairwell, rather dark, and it would get some street noise with windows and/or shutters open in the summer. Maybe Sollecito was at the back. There might have been a slight view down from there. Behind is a modern institute, a part of the university.

I always wondered why AK chose the middle of the three bedrooms. In the report she notes she was right opposite the french doors to the balcony which let in a lot of light. They'd give a nice enough view, sorta. One of five ways to break into the house that all would have been way easier than Filomena's window.


Hello Fast Pete,
I am sorry if someone else has already addressed the reasoning for Amanda taking the (I think smaller) middle bedroom; but IIRC, I think I read that Amanda saw the for rent sign being posted by one of the original girls, she immediately put down her deposit but did not move in for two more weeks. In the meantime, Meredith rented a room in the house as well, and being the first to move in, took the (I believe larger) room at the end of the hall. This is in conflict with the Vanity Fair article of course.

BTW, I have followed your insightful discussions thoroughly and I have utmost admiration for the many excellent posters at True Justice. Thank you for all your efforts on behalf of Meredith and her family. tt-)

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r-(( Rest in Peace Meredith Kercher r-((
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Skep wrote:
"I am willing to bet that AB's one and only source for this is Chris Mellas. It contains several unsupported allegations, all of which lead to a totally unsupported and even ludicrous conclusion: that it is very likely the computer holds evidence that could help clear Amanda Knox."


Maybe. Charlie told basically the same, obviously from the same source.
I dug up what Frank said at that time. This Bernaschi seems to be the one that Bremner described as the "real expert", as he was able to provide the contents of two of the three damaged disks.

Anyways, the contents of Meredith's and Raffaele's second disk are thus available, only Amanda's is unknown.
So the Knox defence does not request any new examination as that dispute about the motive is off the table.

Now Rose will surely notify Anne to update her assessment, :D

As for the Sollecitos, they have the contents of Raffaele's second disk, obviously no traces of human activity in theat period could be obtained from them, either.
They still request a new examination of the cause of the damage in their appeal.


Frank's old report on the hard disk controversy:
Quote:
Saturday, April 5, 2008
Get-together at Claudia's

(updated)

All the parties were invited to Gip Claudia Matteini's this morning: Pm Mignini, all the lawyers of all three suspects and the Kercher family's legal representative Francesco Maresca.
The occasion was the acquisition of evidence (incidente probatorio) through the hearing of CNR expert Massimo Bernaschi on Meredith's, Raffaele's and Amanda's laptops (Raffaele's was the one where he was doing his thesis not the one where he watched Amelie, which is still being studied in the States).
Prof. Bernaschi explained that he wasn't initially able to start the laptops because someone had shocked them by giving them too strong an electric power surge.
He could easily recover the content of Meredith's and Raffaele's computers, while for Amanda's most data was lost.
So anyone hoping for a list of the lovers of the Dark Lady from Seattle, with pictures and detailed descriptions of performances, will be disappointed.

By the way, now the content of the laptops is available for the parties, but it seems that there's no smoking guns inside. Only university stuff. In Raffaele's there was the developing of a program for school management. For Meredith some files about Dante Alighieri. Almost a prediction of the Inferno she was going to go through.


At least it was a nice get-together, this morning, for all the group. These are the moments that make life worthwhile.

But now there's another giallo. Who gave that shock to the computers?
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Offline Patzu


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Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 5:10 pm

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

h9A7wa9i1K wrote:
Earl Grey wrote:
stint7 wrote:
More Observations about Counsellor Bremner's high profile case:


A) Did the Police ("mama mia") per chance cuff her twice behind her head ??
B) Could this possibly contribute to her not reported until much later, difficulty remembering (selective) facts and her *much* later reported traumatic brain injury??
C) Did the Officer have long Brunette hair, yet could not be identified when sitting very close by in a very small Courtroom
D) Is there a video *available to the public* that will negate or unequivocally validate any possibility of exaggerated, long after incident reported, allegations by Ms Bremner ??


Terrific questions, Stint.





Ahhh, well, yes.. but the real question is, "Can Anne Bremner sing?" Top marks to anyone finding a clip of Anne singing (youtube perhaps? myspace?)


Anne singing, way back before the screw-top brain surgery...

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Offline The 411


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Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:49 pm

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Pelerine wrote:
bolint wrote:
"Is it stated anywhere specifically that those that were examining the hard drives fried them? "

Anne Bremner states that specifically.

Quote:
"


That is unfortunate for Amanda, because her defense team wants access to the evidence on her computer. The prosecution is trying to argue that Amanda did not get along with Meredith Kercher, but photographs and videos on Amanda's hard drive would show otherwise.

At this point, it looks as if those photos will never been seen.


Friends? - what an impudent statement!

excerpt from Amandas 'notorious' email:

....but i assumed that perhaps Meredith was having
menstrual issues and hadnt cleaned up yet.

Would any girl/woman speaks like this about a murdered friend?
Would any girl/woman write like this to I don't know how many 20-40 people who altogether do not have known Meredith?
Would any girl/woman mention like this to other people?


Just an additional attack - perhaps because of Merediths complaining about Amandas poor cleaning habits. I always found this extremly ugly and vicious. And this speculation about the vaseline - I am convinced all invented from Amanda.
'My friend Meredith' - Amandas mouth should freeze up for ever!


Pelerine:

The hostility Amanda had for Meredith....what's that very apt expression--....you could cut it WITH A KNIFE.

Perhaps the MAIN motive for this vicious murder is simple: Amanda couldn't bear to be outclassed by Meredith.

Amanda both envied and resented Meredith, because Meredith was the "real thing."

In Amanda's mind, there was only one "winner" in this competition (and that winner was Meredith), which made Amanda feel like "the loser" --and this feeling was intolerable to her.

Amanda's snide comment about Meredith being the "good little girl" who did her homework is so revealing. The comment tells a lot more about AMANDA'S HOSTILE FEELINGS ABOUT MEREDITH than it does about Meredith, the diligent student.

It wasn't enough to take Meredith's life, Amanda needed to sully Meredith's reputation, destroy her good name, steal her dignity--EVEN AFTER HER DEATH.

So desperate was Amanda to destroy "her competition" that she tried to expose any Meredith vulnerability--for the sole purpose of making herself look better. Even if Amanda needed to invent some "weaknesses."

Amanda, the slovenly one draws the attention *off* her own sloppiness-- by inventing/suggesting Meredith's possible menstrual messiness. In Amanda's mind, it was also clearly a way of getting even with Meredith for chiding her about her untidy bathroom habits.

It's so transparent and pathetic to everyone-- well, EXCEPT to Amanda-- who has ZERO self-awareness-- and is the poster child for the Unexamined Life.
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:15 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Top marks for the post Stint, but you missed * Bushy Haired Stranger * in the description of the hit and run driver.:) So, Anne's attorneys immediately filed for the arresting cop's record of arrests, investigations. Low down and dirty. Glad that didn't work. Do I hear echoes of the Furman fiasco? ( OJ Simpson's case, involving Furman the detective). I bet Anne is just wishing that she'd never gone down this path, and just let it go down as a bit too much Birthday Celebration. It wouldn't have been good, but this is going to be far, far worse...As it shows the mind set :( the lies, and, anyone can tell how much this costs, dollar wise. Whether it's using up favours, or actual cash. Just pinpoints how much she stands to lose...and, as she hasn't exactly being too successful in this case so far, it severly undermine's one's faith in her ability . I wouldn't be hiring her ( not that I ever would have) after this . Surprised Nancy Grace didn't open up her show with * Bombshell Tonight* about Anne:)

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Offline mortytoad


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Location: Seattle, Washington

PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

And it seems to me that the " super best friends" angle is going to be part of the appeal and is trying to get some mileage in before the appels star (" I still can't believe that my friend is gone"). Didn't Amanda state some time ago, possibly at the trial, that she hadn't even known Meredith for that long or that well?
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Offline capealadin


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Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:58 am

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Absolutely right, 411.!!! Pyscopaths experience severe rage when rejected, as well. I can add nothing more to your excellent post.

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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Hi, Mortytoad. Yep, and added that she * just wanted to get on with her life*

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

capealadin wrote:
Top marks for the post Stint, but you missed * Bushy Haired Stranger * in the description of the hit and run driver.:) So, Anne's attorneys immediately filed for the arresting cop's record of arrests, investigations. Low down and dirty. Glad that didn't work. Do I hear echoes of the Furman fiasco? ( OJ Simpson's case, involving Furman the detective). I bet Anne is just wishing that she'd never gone down this path, and just let it go down as a bit too much Birthday Celebration. It wouldn't have been good, but this is going to be far, far worse...As it shows the mind set :( the lies, and, anyone can tell how much this costs, dollar wise. Whether it's using up favours, or actual cash. Just pinpoints how much she stands to lose...and, as she hasn't exactly being too successful in this case so far, it severly undermine's one's faith in her ability . I wouldn't be hiring her ( not that I ever would have) after this . Surprised Nancy Grace didn't open up her show with * Bombshell Tonight* about Anne:)



Not to mention his disciplinary record. It turns out he has a clean slate.

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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:58 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

Hi Skep. Oh, Bummer, for Bremner!!!!!

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Offline stint7


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

May I be the first to admit that my comments carping that the 2 month plus delay between a straightforward DUI arrest and filing of formal charges filed may not be so terribly suspicious.

I insinuated that *possibly* the young Kenmore City Municipal Court Prosecutor may have been intimidated by the celebrity status of Ms Bremner , her Army like array of equally powerful legal talent, and her Influential Connections, as well as the multitude of delaying and obscuring legal maneuvers she promulgated.

The New York Times notes just today that Roger Clemens will be formally charged with perjury in connection with his *February 2008* testimony on Capital Hill. (Over 2 1/2 *years* later)

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/20/sport ... ml?_r=1&hp

I promise as penance to repeat 1000 times: "The wheels of Justice sometimes move slowly"

However, I might sneak one stanza of :
"Especially for the well heeled, well financed, well connected, well represented, and well known."
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Offline Pelerine


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Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:19 pm

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

The 411 wrote:


Pelerine:

The hostility Amanda had for Meredith....what's that very apt expression--....you could cut it WITH A KNIFE.

Perhaps the MAIN motive for this vicious murder is simple: Amanda couldn't bear to be outclassed by Meredith.

Amanda both envied and resented Meredith, because Meredith was the "real thing."

In Amanda's mind, there was only one "winner" in this competition (and that winner was Meredith), which made Amanda feel like "the loser" --and this feeling was intolerable to her.

Amanda's snide comment about Meredith being the "good little girl" who did her homework is so revealing. The comment tells a lot more about AMANDA'S HOSTILE FEELINGS ABOUT MEREDITH than it does about Meredith, the diligent student.

It wasn't enough to take Meredith's life, Amanda needed to sully Meredith's reputation, destroy her good name, steal her dignity--EVEN AFTER HER DEATH.

So desperate was Amanda to destroy "her competition" that she tried to expose any Meredith vulnerability--for the sole purpose of making herself look better. Even if Amanda needed to invent some "weaknesses."

Amanda, the slovenly one draws the attention *off* her own sloppiness-- by inventing/suggesting Meredith's possible menstrual messiness. In Amanda's mind, it was also clearly a way of getting even with Meredith for chiding her about her untidy bathroom habits.

It's so transparent and pathetic to everyone-- well, EXCEPT to Amanda-- who has ZERO self-awareness-- and is the poster child for the Unexamined Life.


***

Yes, so true! And when you consider all these arguments and then add Patricks SMS - that he did not need her at the bar - so you have an acutal feeling how Amanda felt after recieving that SMS: she must have been boiling over with frust an hate!

I do not believe for a second that she was looking forward to a cosy night with Raffaele at his flat - she was determined to go to Le Chic and have lots of fun with lots of guys.

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Offline stilicho


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, JULY 22 -   

SomeAlibi wrote:
bolint wrote:
"Show me a creditable source describing how the drives were destroyed and we can move forward with a dialogue about it."

Massei Report (p21):

"an expert report on the computers of the accused was requested, the memories of which were found to have been damaged at the time of the analysis of the supports carried out by the Postal Police, such that the hard drives could not be duplicated/cloned for subsequent examination."



This is a fact of the case - it was a serious procedural screw up and we should mark it as so and there's no other extra issues around it. However, it is not material to the prosecution case because of the ISP data and the MAC. The defence's case is that Amanda's computer would have had lots of happy smiley pictures of her and Meredith on it. This is about 0.001% relevant to the case and wouldn't change the evidence on which guilt has been predicated. Total fluff.

However *someone* got an alimighty bollocking for wrecking the drives and quite rightly so. That could have materially screwed up the application of justice on a case and is incompetent hardware handling. Just remember dear FOA that the evidence against Amanda and Raffaele is based on software analysis done by completely different people so the one has no relevance to the other as much as it is a highly prevelant meme in certain advocates of the pro-defence side to suggest that when X screws up that it means that unconnected party Y is more likely to also. In legal circles we call this form of argument "specious bollocks".


It is and it isn't, SomeAlibi. If it's been reported that the manufacturer has the technology to recover data but the Italian police don't then that's not the same thing as stating unequivocally that the police "fried" the computer components and then refused to do anything about it. For this to be a "procedural screw up", we'd have to know the procedures which were to be followed and the whether they were ignored except in the case of Raffaele's significant machine.

The facts are that we don't have enough information to make that judgement. It's possible that none of the machines originally were able to be accessed with the software and the procedures employed by the police but that the MACBOOKPRO was accessible only after additional work.

As always in this case, the groupies leap all over what's essentially a one-liner in the report, combine it with some assertion made by a lawyer with absolutely no technical expertise, and arrive at a grand conclusion about something that they add to the agenda. Anyone who's worked with IT departments knows that you can propose a project only to hear that it's "impossible". Unfortunately, "impossible" usually means something like call the Senior VP of Information Systems, set up a scope document, apply budgeting and diligence (disaster recovery is a big one these days) and suddenly "impossible" actually means not only "very possible" but also much easier than anyone had thought.

I don't know how many times I've heard an IT professional say "impossible" only to find out they really meant they were too busy even to look at it until the project was scoped out.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:43 pm   Post subject: LOCKING THEAD!   

picture of a pumpkin
This topic has been locked by a Moderator
Reason: This thread is now locked. Please continue the discussion in the brand new main discussion thread: XIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUGUST 19 -

Thank You

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