Judge Massei Sentencing Report     The Meredith Kercher Fund     The Murder Of Meredith Kercher Wiki     True Justice For Meredith Kercher     Judge Nencini Sentencing Report 


Last visit was: Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:06 am
It is currently Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:06 am
All times are UTC

Forum rules

XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 - Dec 31, 09

Moderators: Nell, Ergon, Michael, Moderators


 Page 10 of 14 [ 3464 posts ]
Go to page Previous  1 ... 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14  Next
Author Message

Offline The 411


User avatar


Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:49 pm

Posts: 1386

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:17 pm   Post subject: My NEW AVATARA   

So, whaddya all think of the my avatara?
It's none other than Helen of Troy (AGAIN!) but this time, all'Italiana...
and my avatara depicts the characters of THAT tale.
But don'tcha think the image, ALSO eerily resembles the three convicted murderers?
Here's an interesting factoid about Helen of Troy.

The name of Helen of Troy's mother was LEDA (Nemesis)...not to be confused with EDDA (Nemesis)...


Last edited by The 411 on Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top Profile 

Offline piktor


User avatar


Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:30 pm

Posts: 1081

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

"Italian Locals Shower Knox With Christmas Gifts" SKY NEWS

So much for the 'evil Italy' scenario.

FOA must be fuming at the news.

Will U.S. reporters grill State Department oracles for an explanation?

Will Sen. Cantwell issue a 'Cease and Desist'?

A ploy? An admission of a prosecution's guilty conscience by proxy?

Assisi, "not real Italy"?


Last edited by piktor on Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Fiona


User avatar


Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:54 am

Posts: 1080

Highscores: 7

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Well I do not know if Italian charities normally collect for prison inmates at Xmas: I do not think it beyond the bounds of possibility that they do.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline stint7


User avatar


Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:07 pm

Posts: 1582

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Bard eloquently explains:
Quote:
Deathfish, whilst I fully understand your dislike of Edda Mellas I don't think it is right or fair to post those pictures of her on the board in that way. However we feel about her she is clearly grieving deeply for the loss of her daughter, the circumstances surrounding that loss, and for the life they all had before all this happened. I know it is nothing like the loss that the Kerchers are having to cope with, but Edda did not kill Meredith. Amanda did. Edda is just doing all she knows how to in an agonising situation. I don't think we need to use phots of her weeping like this. It feels like bullying and it makes me feel uncomfortable. Just thought I would make the comment for the record. I have always felt we have an obligation, toward Meredith in a way, to rise above the sort of thing we might frown at the FOA doing. I just wonder how fair it is, that's all.
Bard


********
Hi Bard
I have probably read all 461 of your previous posts without a dimple of disagreement.
In fact on many occassions with a resounding... Yesssssss!

However, please allow me to express some scintilla of discomfort with your images issue, and your subsequent elaboration about "right and fair".

IMHO, Edda Mellas has made the conscious choice to unabashedly actively accomplish whatever illogical,immoral,and in fact often actually illegal, etc actions she does to get her daughter out of the (dormitory like) 'cell' in Perugia.
She places herself by her own choice in every media managed moment for hundreds of images for the world to see (and hopefully swallow).
She has totally tethered herself to the FOA/Marriott talking points, even on many occasions exceeding the scripted misstatements into bald faced lies, repeated by her daily with sickening sentimentality to include touching tears, in spite of readily available refutations.

Her deliberate dearth of compassion for an innocent man in prison and her deliberate decision to leave him there, as well as her disgusting diatribe about Meredith leaves me little in the way of respect for her right to pictorial anonymity here when "crying".

Couple of hackneyed old sayings:
1) The apple rarely falls far from the tree.
2) If you cannot stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

Edda Mellas's assinine actions and disgusting decisions have forever forfeited my concern for being 'right and fair' about her pictures.

Just my opinion, politely (and alliteratively) proffered

Best Regards


Last edited by stint7 on Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top Profile 

Offline Emerald


User avatar


Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:53 am

Posts: 1706

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Does Edda Mellas think we are stupid or is she really that delusional?

The local merchants 'donated' stuff for Amanda? That woman is nuts!
Top Profile 

Offline Greggy


User avatar


Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:10 pm

Posts: 208

Location: Southern USA

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Does anyone know where The Tizzle Wizzle Show was filmed the night of the murder?
I have attached a link to a recent episode of this show.

http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/ ... w/1187092/
Top Profile 

Offline Zopi


User avatar


Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 8:52 pm

Posts: 317

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

stint7 wrote:
Bard eloquently explains:
Quote:
Deathfish, whilst I fully understand your dislike of Edda Mellas I don't think it is right or fair to post those pictures of her on the board in that way. However we feel about her she is clearly grieving deeply for the loss of her daughter, the circumstances surrounding that loss, and for the life they all had before all this happened. I know it is nothing like the loss that the Kerchers are having to cope with, but Edda did not kill Meredith. Amanda did. Edda is just doing all she knows how to in an agonising situation. I don't think we need to use phots of her weeping like this. It feels like bullying and it makes me feel uncomfortable. Just thought I would make the comment for the record. I have always felt we have an obligation, toward Meredith in a way, to rise above the sort of thing we might frown at the FOA doing. I just wonder how fair it is, that's all.
Bard


********
Hi Bard
I have probably read all 461 of your previous posts without a dimple of disagreement.
In fact on many occassions with a resounding... Yesssssss!

However, please allow me to express some scintilla of discomfort with your images issue, and your subsequent elaboration about "right and fair".

IMHO, Edda Mellas has made the conscious choice to unabashedly actively accomplish whatever illogical,immoral,and in fact often actually illegal, etc actions she does to get her daughter out of the (dormitory like) 'cell' in Perugia.
She places herself by her own choice in every media managed moment for hundreds of images for the world to see (and hopefully swallow).
She has totally tethered herself to the FOA/Marriott talking points, even on many occasions exceeding the scripted misstatements into bald faced lies, repeated by her daily with sickening sentimentality to include touching tears, in spite of readily available refutations.

Her deliberate dearth of compassion for an innocent man in prison and her deliberate decision to leave him there, as well as her disgusting diatribe about Meredith leaves me little in the way of respect for her right to pictorial anonymity here when "crying".

Couple of hackneyed old sayings:
1) The apple rarely falls far from the tree.
2) If you cannot stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

Edda Mellas's assinine actions and disgusting decisions have forever forfeited my concern for being 'right and fair' about her pictures.

Just my opinion, politely (and alliteratively) proffered

Best Regards


Interesting discussion indeed, may I add another saying?

Making the decision to have a child is momentous. It is to decide forever to have your heart go walking around outside your body. ~Elizabeth Stone

So, I am with Bard in this one.
Top Profile 

Offline lamaha


Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:08 am

Posts: 36

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

stint7 wrote:
tigger wrote:
Quote:
I don't know much about the Italian judicial process but, it seems to me that they allow you to speak when you have a desire to do so. Very humane.


Actually, the system is even more humane than you cite.
In Italian trials, the defendant may (and is usually expected) *to lie* .



de-lurking for a moment!
Doesn't the concept of perjury exist in Italy, at least for defendants?


Last edited by lamaha on Sun Dec 20, 2009 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline lamaha


Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:08 am

Posts: 36

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 5:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Zopi wrote:
stint7 wrote:
Bard eloquently explains:
Quote:
Deathfish, whilst I fully understand your dislike of Edda Mellas I don't think it is right or fair to post those pictures of her on the board in that way. However we feel about her she is clearly grieving deeply for the loss of her daughter, the circumstances surrounding that loss, and for the life they all had before all this happened. I know it is nothing like the loss that the Kerchers are having to cope with, but Edda did not kill Meredith. Amanda did. Edda is just doing all she knows how to in an agonising situation. I don't think we need to use phots of her weeping like this. It feels like bullying and it makes me feel uncomfortable. Just thought I would make the comment for the record. I have always felt we have an obligation, toward Meredith in a way, to rise above the sort of thing we might frown at the FOA doing. I just wonder how fair it is, that's all.
Bard


********
Hi Bard
I have probably read all 461 of your previous posts without a dimple of disagreement.
In fact on many occassions with a resounding... Yesssssss!

However, please allow me to express some scintilla of discomfort with your images issue, and your subsequent elaboration about "right and fair".

IMHO, Edda Mellas has made the conscious choice to unabashedly actively accomplish whatever illogical,immoral,and in fact often actually illegal, etc actions she does to get her daughter out of the (dormitory like) 'cell' in Perugia.
She places herself by her own choice in every media managed moment for hundreds of images for the world to see (and hopefully swallow).
She has totally tethered herself to the FOA/Marriott talking points, even on many occasions exceeding the scripted misstatements into bald faced lies, repeated by her daily with sickening sentimentality to include touching tears, in spite of readily available refutations.

Her deliberate dearth of compassion for an innocent man in prison and her deliberate decision to leave him there, as well as her disgusting diatribe about Meredith leaves me little in the way of respect for her right to pictorial anonymity here when "crying".

Couple of hackneyed old sayings:
1) The apple rarely falls far from the tree.
2) If you cannot stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

Edda Mellas's assinine actions and disgusting decisions have forever forfeited my concern for being 'right and fair' about her pictures.

Just my opinion, politely (and alliteratively) proffered

Best Regards


Interesting discussion indeed, may I add another saying?

Making the decision to have a child is momentous. It is to decide forever to have your heart go walking around outside your body. ~Elizabeth Stone

So, I am with Bard in this one.



Me, too. That's a beautiful quote, btw.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline stint7


User avatar


Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:07 pm

Posts: 1582

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 5:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Lam delurks to ask:
Quote:
de-lurking for a moment!
Doesn't the concept of perjury exist in Italy, at least for defendants?

*************
One of the ever observant trial watchers here helped me understand this same question long ago.
Iinterestingly enough, the concept of perjury certainly does exist....for all *except* defendants

A Reference
In some countries such as France, Italy, and Germany, suspects cannot be heard under oath or affirmation and thus cannot commit perjury, regardless of what they say during their trial.

http://www.answers.com/topic/perjury (scroll down)
Top Profile 

Offline Emerald


User avatar


Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:53 am

Posts: 1706

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 5:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

You know, this perceived special treatment of Amanda will not be received well by the prisoners forever. Another 'star' prisoner will soon emerge. Princess Amanda will be relegated to the dregs of prison society.

Amanda has a long, long way to go. Her new 'Family' will not see Amanda as entitled for long and will prove it.
Top Profile 

Offline Shirley


Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:48 pm

Posts: 376

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 5:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Greggy wrote:
Does anyone know where The Tizzle Wizzle Show was filmed the night of the murder?
I have attached a link to a recent episode of this show.

http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/ ... w/1187092/


I don't know Greggy, but I'm glad to see you didn't get stuck in a snowbank.:D
Stay warm!
Top Profile 

Offline Shirley


Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:48 pm

Posts: 376

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 5:27 pm   Post subject: Re: My NEW AVATARA   

The 411 wrote:
So, whaddya all think of the my avatara?
It's none other than Helen of Troy (AGAIN!) but this time, all'Italiana...
and my avatara depicts the characters of THAT tale.
But don'tcha think the image, ALSO eerily resembles the three convicted murderers?
Here's an interesting factoid about Helen of Troy.

The name of Helen of Troy's mother was LEDA (Nemesis)...not to be confused with EDDA (Nemesis)...


:lol:

And thanks also to Fine for your earlier reference to the sun and moon of the name Helen.
Top Profile 

Offline Zopi


User avatar


Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 8:52 pm

Posts: 317

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 5:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

bilko wrote:
I've just noticed that the "male model" has also made an appearance on the Trump site:

"I've been a male model for over 10 years and I can assure you that Amanda is innocent.
I've followed your advice Donald, and today I boycotted an Italian restaurant near my house with these Italian green white and red flags all over which is called Jose's Cantina. I told them that they can keep their margaritas and tacos because I'm not buying Italian food anymore until they free Amanda. The restaurant hostess, her name was Juanita, was stunned when I told her that. The hell with those Italians and their stupid sombreros!"

Now I know he's kidding.

It's going to be hard keeping up this scam, because I love margaritas and often eat at Taco Bell, but a couple of weeks in Italy hanging out with my new buddies from FOA is just the new year break I am looking for.


lol! :lol: and if you take a look at TJFM you will probably find his other alias!
Top Profile 

Offline SomeAlibi


User avatar


Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:23 pm

Posts: 1932

Highscores: 7

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Michael wrote:
tigger3498 wrote:
"She's not allowed candy in jail so I can't take the chocolates in and they won't allow the tree either," Ms Mellas said. "I can take the books in though."
LOL! She's allowed books Jester! Maybe the inmates would fight over the candy :)
I don't know much about the Italian judicial process but, it seems to me that they allow you to speak when you have a desire to do so. Very humane. Rudy had his chance to have new evidence admitted and, each time his lawyers state this, they fail to produce anything! I would like to see him make a truthful statement for once that is consistent with the facts. Here's to keeping our fingers crossed! :)


I think sweets are banned probably because they're a security risk. For example, it's quite easy to embed drugs or even poison inside chocolates.



Exactly right. And those in charge wouldn't want to undermine the bent screws' and other staff's monopoly of smuggling drugs into prison ;)

_________________
What it is is spin lent credence because it's from the mouth of a lawyer. We've seen how much gravitas they can carry merely by saying something is or is not so when often they are speaking as much rubbish as anyone else.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline The Bard


User avatar


Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:46 pm

Posts: 2486

Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

stint7 wrote:
Bard eloquently explains:
Quote:
Deathfish, whilst I fully understand your dislike of Edda Mellas I don't think it is right or fair to post those pictures of her on the board in that way. However we feel about her she is clearly grieving deeply for the loss of her daughter, the circumstances surrounding that loss, and for the life they all had before all this happened. I know it is nothing like the loss that the Kerchers are having to cope with, but Edda did not kill Meredith. Amanda did. Edda is just doing all she knows how to in an agonising situation. I don't think we need to use phots of her weeping like this. It feels like bullying and it makes me feel uncomfortable. Just thought I would make the comment for the record. I have always felt we have an obligation, toward Meredith in a way, to rise above the sort of thing we might frown at the FOA doing. I just wonder how fair it is, that's all.
Bard


********
Hi Bard
I have probably read all 461 of your previous posts without a dimple of disagreement.
In fact on many occassions with a resounding... Yesssssss!

However, please allow me to express some scintilla of discomfort with your images issue, and your subsequent elaboration about "right and fair".

IMHO, Edda Mellas has made the conscious choice to unabashedly actively accomplish whatever illogical,immoral,and in fact often actually illegal, etc actions she does to get her daughter out of the (dormitory like) 'cell' in Perugia.
She places herself by her own choice in every media managed moment for hundreds of images for the world to see (and hopefully swallow).
She has totally tethered herself to the FOA/Marriott talking points, even on many occasions exceeding the scripted misstatements into bald faced lies, repeated by her daily with sickening sentimentality to include touching tears, in spite of readily available refutations.

Her deliberate dearth of compassion for an innocent man in prison and her deliberate decision to leave him there, as well as her disgusting diatribe about Meredith leaves me little in the way of respect for her right to pictorial anonymity here when "crying".

Couple of hackneyed old sayings:
1) The apple rarely falls far from the tree.
2) If you cannot stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

Edda Mellas's assinine actions and disgusting decisions have forever forfeited my concern for being 'right and fair' about her pictures.

Just my opinion, politely (and alliteratively) proffered

Best Regards


Thanks stint7, I respect that viewpoint, politely expressed (I love this board). And I do actually share your dislike of Edda. 100% in fact. I cannot condone anything she does, not even for a moment, and have expressed that, often. Like DF2000 I do wonder how much she knows and does not voice, possibly even to herself. Her behaviour regarding Patrick was unforgivable in my view. However, I do feel that in spite of this it is incumbent upon us to respect her still as a human being. To me, this horrific crime has served to remind many many people, all over the world, of their humanity. The touching support people have shown for the Kerchers, how they have responded to Meredith's life and death, the work they do here and on other boards every day...it has actually touched a higher ideal in people I think. Through their involvement they have felt pity, protectiveness, a determination to answer this horrific crime with justice, to foreground the often forgotten victim. I suppose that is something that might comfort the Kerchers, to know that Meredith's life touched people in such a way. Who knows.

It is interesting that two other women have hit on why we perhaps differ in our reaction to the photographs of Edda. I think it is that as women maybe we react differently to a mother - any mother - suffering because of a child. I feel it is just not a laudable act to mock someone who is clearly in pain and suffering, whatever they have done. I am reacting as one human being to another, instinctively. It is the compassion that tigerfish found so lacking in me before! I knew it hadn't gone far, and I can also see why it is an irritating position to take for some people. I think it diminishes the person who does it too, but that is their choice. But it is just my personal take on it, like yours is. I was the kid in the playground befriending the kid that got bullied and losing all my friends because of it. It's just the way I am made. I can deal with not approving, liking, positively despising, the things that Edda has said and done, and yet defend her as one human being to another. That is not a difficult position for me to take. I have spoken up in defence of Amanda before now, several times, both here and on Perugia Shock, from people who made personal, sexist and unkind posts about her. It does not mean I defend her actions in any way.

I guess this civilised exchange is just another brick in the wall that makes this forum such a strong one, and pleasure to participate in. It is what marks this forum apart from The Cess Pit! We can agree to differ. It's ok. I respect your view, I just needed to explain mine. I don't think I managed any alliteration, but I probably mixed a few metaphors!

Best Wishes

The Bard

_________________
Top Profile 

Offline lector


Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:25 am

Posts: 97

Location: swamps of Jersey

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

The Bard wrote:

Thanks stint7, I respect that viewpoint, politely expressed (I love this board). And I do actually share your dislike of Edda. 100% in fact. I cannot condone anything she does, not even for a moment, and have expressed that, often. Like DF2000 I do wonder how much she knows and does not voice, possibly even to herself. Her behaviour regarding Patrick was unforgivable in my view. However, I do feel that in spite of this it is incumbent upon us to respect her still as a human being. To me, this horrific crime has served to remind many many people, all over the world, of their humanity. The touching support people have shown for the Kerchers, how they have responded to Meredith's life and death, the work they do here and on other boards every day...it has actually touched a higher ideal in people I think. Through their involvement they have felt pity, protectiveness, a determination to answer this horrific crime with justice, to foreground the often forgotten victim. I suppose that is something that might comfort the Kerchers, to know that Meredith's life touched people in such a way. Who knows.

It is interesting that two other women have hit on why we perhaps differ in our reaction to the photographs of Edda. I think it is that as women maybe we react differently to a mother - any mother - suffering because of a child. I feel it is just not a laudable act to mock someone who is clearly in pain and suffering, whatever they have done. I am reacting as one human being to another, instinctively. It is the compassion that tigerfish found so lacking in me before! I knew it hadn't gone far, and I can also see why it is an irritating position to take for some people. I think it diminishes the person who does it too, but that is their choice. But it is just my personal take on it, like yours is. I was the kid in the playground befriending the kid that got bullied and losing all my friends because of it. It's just the way I am made. I can deal with not approving, liking, positively despising, the things that Edda has said and done, and yet defend her as one human being to another. That is not a difficult position for me to take. I have spoken up in defence of Amanda before now, several times, both here and on Perugia Shock, from people who made personal, sexist and unkind posts about her. It does not mean I defend her actions in any way.

I guess this civilised exchange is just another brick in the wall that makes this forum such a strong one, and pleasure to participate in. It is what marks this forum apart from The Cess Pit! We can agree to differ. It's ok. I respect your view, I just needed to explain mine. I don't think I managed any alliteration, but I probably mixed a few metaphors!

Best Wishes

The Bard

Bard, I completely agree with you, even though I am a man, & admire your eloquence.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline lector


Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:25 am

Posts: 97

Location: swamps of Jersey

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

I would like to take a moment to recommend the blog written by "Miss Represented," Lies Our Mothers Told Us. It's been mentioned here many times, of course, but a link on another board discussing the case led me to click on it.

It's not strictly a journalistic blog; there's a good deal of opinion & analysis, much of it very interesting. It's very well written, in a voice that I've come to trust. A clear & cogent narrative of the events of the crime & its aftermath emerges if you read it carefully.

The blog is also well designed & formatted; it's easy to absorb the information presented there.

Miss Rep's writings have answered several questions which I've been holding in abeyance. I would highly recommend that anyone new to the case spend a few hours reading her work; it ventures into some pretty dark territory, but sometimes you have to explore those areas to find the answers you seek.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline tom_ch


Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:40 am

Posts: 241

Location: CH

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:10 pm   Post subject: Re: My NEW AVATARA   

The 411 wrote:
So, whaddya all think of the my avatara?

Umm, Troia is Italian slang for prostitute!

Tom
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Mutley


User avatar


Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:38 pm

Posts: 71

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

lamaha wrote:
Zopi wrote:
stint7 wrote:
Bard eloquently explains:
Quote:
Deathfish, whilst I fully understand your dislike of Edda Mellas I don't think it is right or fair to post those pictures of her on the board in that way. However we feel about her she is clearly grieving deeply for the loss of her daughter, the circumstances surrounding that loss, and for the life they all had before all this happened. I know it is nothing like the loss that the Kerchers are having to cope with, but Edda did not kill Meredith. Amanda did. Edda is just doing all she knows how to in an agonising situation. I don't think we need to use phots of her weeping like this. It feels like bullying and it makes me feel uncomfortable. Just thought I would make the comment for the record. I have always felt we have an obligation, toward Meredith in a way, to rise above the sort of thing we might frown at the FOA doing. I just wonder how fair it is, that's all.
Bard


********
Hi Bard
I have probably read all 461 of your previous posts without a dimple of disagreement.
In fact on many occassions with a resounding... Yesssssss!

However, please allow me to express some scintilla of discomfort with your images issue, and your subsequent elaboration about "right and fair".

IMHO, Edda Mellas has made the conscious choice to unabashedly actively accomplish whatever illogical,immoral,and in fact often actually illegal, etc actions she does to get her daughter out of the (dormitory like) 'cell' in Perugia.
She places herself by her own choice in every media managed moment for hundreds of images for the world to see (and hopefully swallow).
She has totally tethered herself to the FOA/Marriott talking points, even on many occasions exceeding the scripted misstatements into bald faced lies, repeated by her daily with sickening sentimentality to include touching tears, in spite of readily available refutations.

Her deliberate dearth of compassion for an innocent man in prison and her deliberate decision to leave him there, as well as her disgusting diatribe about Meredith leaves me little in the way of respect for her right to pictorial anonymity here when "crying".

Couple of hackneyed old sayings:
1) The apple rarely falls far from the tree.
2) If you cannot stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

Edda Mellas's assinine actions and disgusting decisions have forever forfeited my concern for being 'right and fair' about her pictures.

Just my opinion, politely (and alliteratively) proffered

Best Regards


Interesting discussion indeed, may I add another saying?

Making the decision to have a child is momentous. It is to decide forever to have your heart go walking around outside your body. ~Elizabeth Stone

So, I am with Bard in this one.



Me, too. That's a beautiful quote, btw.


And just how far will you go to protect that child fom the consequences of their own actions? Lie for them? Leave an innocent man in prison? Villify a murder victim by making public innuendo about her sex life and add to the grief and pain of her family? Does the fact that it is your own child justify launching a campaign of lies and half truths and slanders to try and force her release? Is the concept of justice to become 'Justice for ALL but only as long as MY child doesn't have to pay a price because it is MY child'? How far will you go? See TWO murderers walk away as if nothing had happened because one is your own child? That is not love. It is pure selfishness. To love your child is to support it but not excuse it. To nurture it to have compassion for others not a sense of entitlement and disregard for others. Perhaps that is the root of the problem; Sollecito has placed his faith in Papa's money and connections to get him out of trouble whatever he has done. Papa has certainly tried to oblige because ''money makes water flow uphill''. In their world view, blood also. Knox has the same attitude to life and people. Her family share it. Neither family have any regard or respect for anybody else. Others are just collateral damage in the trail of destruction and pain that their sense of supreme entitlement leaves behind. Perhaps if they had been brought up to have some boundaries on their own rights there would still be another family's child alive. Another parents' heart still walking outside their bodies. But there is not. The Sollecito and Knox parents want to shrug that off because THEIR child is the only one that matters. THEIR child should not have to face responsibilities or accountability. THEIR happiness overules all others'. THEIR entitlement justifies any and all actions in its defence.

Edda Mellas uses every trick she can muster and tries to wring every last ounce of support in front of the cameras. She cries to order. She uses imagery and manipulates the images of her entire family constantly though usually ineptly. Since she tries to use distorted image to portray her family and daughter in the 'right' light, why should their images not be used to reveal the scam and the falsity? She made her bed. Now she can lie in it in both senses of the term. She did not have to make a public crusade based on falsities, she CHOSE to. She CHOSE to use her family in front of the camera in any and every opportunity from outside the murder scene to inside the court. She COURTED those pictures because she thought she could use them. She may very well learn that those who live by the camera can be damned by it also. Tough! She chose the path. Others would choose otherwise. In England a mother made her son go to the police about the man he had stabbed. Another mother called the police herself about hers. They too loved their children and it must have broken their hearts to have to do it. I think they love them still despite the pain. With rights and autonomy come responsibilities. Unconditional love is to help a child stand on its own and accept those, not ignore them whatever collateral damage they cause to others. Amanda and Raffaele are practiced in deceit and arrogance. It is not hard to see where they learnt it. Amanda and Raffaele may be forced to confront their reponsibilities, their actions and the consequences. Edda Mellas may learn the hard way as well. So be it. It was HER choice. If she had chosen privacy then the pictures would not be used and would not for most part exist at all. She loaded the gun and pulled the trigger. It is too late to bemoan shooting off her own foot.
Top Profile 

Offline piktor


User avatar


Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:30 pm

Posts: 1081

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:14 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

The Bard rocks!! cu-))
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Lancelotti


Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:09 pm

Posts: 378

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Michael wrote:
Lancelotti wrote:
Michael wrote:
And that makes him different to Amanda and Raffaele how? If you want to keep score of lies, I think you'll find Raffaele and Amanda have Rudy beat hands down and there is certainly more truth in his version of that night's events then there is in their's. They've also been convicted of murder via numerous courts and judges don't you know. But I'm glad you at least admit the process is sound and therfore the verdicts are just.


the difference.. Amanda and Raffaele will eventually get off. Rudy won't.


How do you figure they'll get off? The verdict didn't just go against them, it was 'unanimous'. There wasn't so much as a hint of doubt. And only 12% of appeals in Italy succeed in overturning a verdict.


I think they'll have to wait for the 2nd appeal at the Supreme Court of Cassation.

from TJMK: "Approximately half of all sentences rendered in the first trial are in fact reversed during the appeal process, a percentage which is 3 times higher than France for example. The ones that are not reversed often see a decrease in punishment."
Top Profile 

Offline tigerfish


Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:54 am

Posts: 235

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Mutley wrote:

And just how far will you go to protect that child fom the consequences of their own actions? Lie for them? Leave an innocent man in prison? Villify a murder victim by making public innuendo about her sex life and add to the grief and pain of her family? . . . . . . . . She loaded the gun and pulled the trigger. It is too late to bemoan shooting off her own foot.


I pretty much second every word in that post.
And I also feel FOA have misjudged their campaign - it's all very well having American public opinion in your corner (if they do) - but it's the Italians who will decide this matter. What nation would take kindly to having their whole culture disrespected by such people? Italians definitely have a sense of honor and can be stubborn (unlike British politicians in the MacKinnon case) - and like Mignini, they also seem to have a strong desire to do the right thing by Meredith. At least that's how I read it. I hope it's not wishful thinking.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Mutley wrote:
lamaha wrote:
Zopi wrote:
stint7 wrote:
Bard eloquently explains:
Quote:
Deathfish, whilst I fully understand your dislike of Edda Mellas I don't think it is right or fair to post those pictures of her on the board in that way. However we feel about her she is clearly grieving deeply for the loss of her daughter, the circumstances surrounding that loss, and for the life they all had before all this happened. I know it is nothing like the loss that the Kerchers are having to cope with, but Edda did not kill Meredith. Amanda did. Edda is just doing all she knows how to in an agonising situation. I don't think we need to use phots of her weeping like this. It feels like bullying and it makes me feel uncomfortable. Just thought I would make the comment for the record. I have always felt we have an obligation, toward Meredith in a way, to rise above the sort of thing we might frown at the FOA doing. I just wonder how fair it is, that's all.
Bard


********
Hi Bard
I have probably read all 461 of your previous posts without a dimple of disagreement.
In fact on many occassions with a resounding... Yesssssss!

However, please allow me to express some scintilla of discomfort with your images issue, and your subsequent elaboration about "right and fair".

IMHO, Edda Mellas has made the conscious choice to unabashedly actively accomplish whatever illogical,immoral,and in fact often actually illegal, etc actions she does to get her daughter out of the (dormitory like) 'cell' in Perugia.
She places herself by her own choice in every media managed moment for hundreds of images for the world to see (and hopefully swallow).
She has totally tethered herself to the FOA/Marriott talking points, even on many occasions exceeding the scripted misstatements into bald faced lies, repeated by her daily with sickening sentimentality to include touching tears, in spite of readily available refutations.

Her deliberate dearth of compassion for an innocent man in prison and her deliberate decision to leave him there, as well as her disgusting diatribe about Meredith leaves me little in the way of respect for her right to pictorial anonymity here when "crying".

Couple of hackneyed old sayings:
1) The apple rarely falls far from the tree.
2) If you cannot stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

Edda Mellas's assinine actions and disgusting decisions have forever forfeited my concern for being 'right and fair' about her pictures.

Just my opinion, politely (and alliteratively) proffered

Best Regards


Interesting discussion indeed, may I add another saying?

Making the decision to have a child is momentous. It is to decide forever to have your heart go walking around outside your body. ~Elizabeth Stone

So, I am with Bard in this one.



Me, too. That's a beautiful quote, btw.


And just how far will you go to protect that child fom the consequences of their own actions? Lie for them? Leave an innocent man in prison? Villify a murder victim by making public innuendo about her sex life and add to the grief and pain of her family? Does the fact that it is your own child justify launching a campaign of lies and half truths and slanders to try and force her release?
...

To love your child is to support it but not excuse it. To nurture it to have compassion for others not a sense of entitlement and disregard for others.

...

Neither family have any regard or respect for anybody else. Others are just collateral damage in the trail of destruction and pain that their sense of supreme entitlement leaves behind. Perhaps if they had been brought up to have some boundaries on their own rights there would still be another family's child alive. Another parents' heart still walking outside their bodies.

...

She did not have to make a public crusade based on falsities, she CHOSE to. She CHOSE to use her family in front of the camera in any and every opportunity from outside the murder scene to inside the court. She COURTED those pictures because she thought she could use them. She may very well learn that those who live by the camera can be damned by it also.

...

It is not hard to see where they learnt it. Amanda and Raffaele may be forced to confront their reponsibilities, their actions and the consequences. Edda Mellas may learn the hard way as well. So be it. It was HER choice. If she had chosen privacy then the pictures would not be used and would not for most part exist at all. She loaded the gun and pulled the trigger. It is too late to bemoan shooting off her own foot.



It is hard to argue with this, in my opinion. I have read here and there on the internet that it's okay to do whatever it takes to get a loved one out of hot water. I find this attitude shocking and primitive. That isn't love; it is excessive amour propre (self love/regard), narcissism and lack of respect for the basic laws of civil society -- the ones each of us implicitly agrees to when we come in out of the jungle, give up our crude weapons and vigilante notions of right and wrong, and agree to yield some freedom in exchange for protection under a set of established laws. Hobbes said that life in the state of nature was mean, brutish, nasty and short. Thank goodness it was short.

In what moral universe is it acceptable that Edda Mellas and Amanda Knox let an innocent man languish in jail when both knew he did not belong there?

And that is just one question among many.

The most recent story about local citizens rallying to provide a care package for Amanda Knox? That's part of the PR strategy, which entails keeping Amanda Knox in the news, before the camera, on center stage. There will undoubtedly be a parallel effort in Seattle, possibly organized by well-heeled Catholics and a Jesuit community that would rather keep the faithful focused on anything but its own moral lapses.

_________________
Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point; on le sait en mille choses.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Zopi


User avatar


Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 8:52 pm

Posts: 317

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Mutley wrote:
lamaha wrote:
Zopi wrote:
stint7 wrote:
Bard eloquently explains:
Quote:
Deathfish, whilst I fully understand your dislike of Edda Mellas I don't think it is right or fair to post those pictures of her on the board in that way. However we feel about her she is clearly grieving deeply for the loss of her daughter, the circumstances surrounding that loss, and for the life they all had before all this happened. I know it is nothing like the loss that the Kerchers are having to cope with, but Edda did not kill Meredith. Amanda did. Edda is just doing all she knows how to in an agonising situation. I don't think we need to use phots of her weeping like this. It feels like bullying and it makes me feel uncomfortable. Just thought I would make the comment for the record. I have always felt we have an obligation, toward Meredith in a way, to rise above the sort of thing we might frown at the FOA doing. I just wonder how fair it is, that's all.
Bard


********
Hi Bard
I have probably read all 461 of your previous posts without a dimple of disagreement.
In fact on many occassions with a resounding... Yesssssss!

However, please allow me to express some scintilla of discomfort with your images issue, and your subsequent elaboration about "right and fair".

IMHO, Edda Mellas has made the conscious choice to unabashedly actively accomplish whatever illogical,immoral,and in fact often actually illegal, etc actions she does to get her daughter out of the (dormitory like) 'cell' in Perugia.
She places herself by her own choice in every media managed moment for hundreds of images for the world to see (and hopefully swallow).
She has totally tethered herself to the FOA/Marriott talking points, even on many occasions exceeding the scripted misstatements into bald faced lies, repeated by her daily with sickening sentimentality to include touching tears, in spite of readily available refutations.

Her deliberate dearth of compassion for an innocent man in prison and her deliberate decision to leave him there, as well as her disgusting diatribe about Meredith leaves me little in the way of respect for her right to pictorial anonymity here when "crying".

Couple of hackneyed old sayings:
1) The apple rarely falls far from the tree.
2) If you cannot stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

Edda Mellas's assinine actions and disgusting decisions have forever forfeited my concern for being 'right and fair' about her pictures.

Just my opinion, politely (and alliteratively) proffered

Best Regards


Interesting discussion indeed, may I add another saying?

Making the decision to have a child is momentous. It is to decide forever to have your heart go walking around outside your body. ~Elizabeth Stone

So, I am with Bard in this one.



Me, too. That's a beautiful quote, btw.


And just how far will you go to protect that child fom the consequences of their own actions? Lie for them? Leave an innocent man in prison? Villify a murder victim by making public innuendo about her sex life and add to the grief and pain of her family? Does the fact that it is your own child justify launching a campaign of lies and half truths and slanders to try and force her release?
...

To love your child is to support it but not excuse it. To nurture it to have compassion for others not a sense of entitlement and disregard for others.

...

Neither family have any regard or respect for anybody else. Others are just collateral damage in the trail of destruction and pain that their sense of supreme entitlement leaves behind. Perhaps if they had been brought up to have some boundaries on their own rights there would still be another family's child alive. Another parents' heart still walking outside their bodies.

...

She did not have to make a public crusade based on falsities, she CHOSE to. She CHOSE to use her family in front of the camera in any and every opportunity from outside the murder scene to inside the court. She COURTED those pictures because she thought she could use them. She may very well learn that those who live by the camera can be damned by it also.

...

It is not hard to see where they learnt it. Amanda and Raffaele may be forced to confront their reponsibilities, their actions and the consequences. Edda Mellas may learn the hard way as well. So be it. It was HER choice. If she had chosen privacy then the pictures would not be used and would not for most part exist at all. She loaded the gun and pulled the trigger. It is too late to bemoan shooting off her own foot.



It is hard to argue with this, in my opinion. I have read here and there on the internet that it's okay to do whatever it takes to get a loved one out of hot water. I find this attitude shocking and primitive. That isn't love; it is excessive amour propre (self love/regard), narcissism and lack of respect for the basic laws of civil society -- the ones each of us implicitly agrees to when we come in out of the jungle, give up our crude weapons and vigilante notions of right and wrong, and agree to yield some freedom in exchange for protection under a set of established laws. Hobbes said that life in the state of nature was mean, brutish, nasty and short. Thank goodness it was short.

In what moral universe is it acceptable that Edda Mellas and Amanda Knox let an innocent man languish in jail when both knew he did not belong there?

And that is just one question among many.

The most recent story about local citizens rallying to provide a care package for Amanda Knox? That's part of the PR strategy, which entails keeping Amanda Knox in the news, before the camera, on center stage. There will undoubtedly be a parallel effort in Seattle, possibly organized by well-heeled Catholics and a Jesuit community that would rather keep the faithful focused on anything but its own moral lapses.


The original discussion started about pictures of EM crying. I do believe she was genuinely crying and I did not like those pictures. There was no question about moral justification for her actions.
Top Profile 

Offline The 411


User avatar


Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:49 pm

Posts: 1386

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:58 pm   Post subject: Re: My NEW AVATARA   

tom_ch wrote:
The 411 wrote:
So, whaddya all think of the my avatara?

Umm, Troia is Italian slang for prostitute!

Tom

Yes, it does, indeed mean prostitute, as well as being the Italian word for "Troy."

The Italian slang word "troia" became part of our PMF knowledge after reading Rudy's diary.
Upon discovering Meredith's rent money was missing, (and suspecting AK was the thief) Rudy claimed Meredith vented her anger by saying of AK: "Quella troia di una drogata!" To be clear, this is Rudy's version of the facts. So, it is not 100% certain that she said those exact words, or even if she thought those thoughts.
Even if she stated those sentiments about AK, it was never clear whether they were uttered in Italian, or whether Rudy had translated her words from English, in his diary.
Top Profile 

Offline stint7


User avatar


Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:07 pm

Posts: 1582

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:58 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Bard concludes another "YESSSSSS !!! post" by saying:
Quote:
It's ok. I respect your view, I just needed to explain mine

^^^^^^^^^
Bard you have not only perfectly explained why you feel that way about the pictures, but you have opened a window to my feelings that I had not considered.

I am not a female, and not a parent.
Yes, a BIG difference.
As you so aptly alluded to, this probably explains all there is to know about why there can exist an empathy for Edda that escaped me.

I still hold everything she emphasizes and embodies in personal, total, dastardly disdain.
However, I agree that there are levels to which the more admirable among us probably should definitely, with some discretion, decide not to descend to.

Best regards from the "gushy guy".
Top Profile 

Offline tigerfish


Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:54 am

Posts: 235

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

The Bard wrote:

It is the compassion that tigerfish found so lacking in me before!


I am sure I didn't accuse you of lacking compassion. If I did, I apologize without reservation.
Except for a few truly great enlightened souls, we all have limitations on our capacity for compassion.
Probably we are only able to feel it when we recognize something of ourselves in that person.
What I recognize in AK - is that I would absolutely not want to be experiencing life from inside that skull of hers.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Yummi


User avatar


Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:29 pm

Posts: 975

Location: Bunga-Bunga Republic

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Quote:
from TJMK: "Approximately half of all sentences rendered in the first trial are in fact reversed during the appeal process, a percentage which is 3 times higher than France for example. The ones that are not reversed often see a decrease in punishment."


Lancelotti update your research, check/quote better your source before posting bs out of any context. Only about 1 in 10 sentences is reformed ('reveersed') in the appeal.
And the figure has not much sense, because it is not exactly a random lottery: cases are different. You can often predict how some sentencess CAN be reversed, while others will NEVER be.
I predict that in this case if the evidence set in the appeal is the same of that in the first degree, the result will be the same.
I recall also that in this case the Court's verdict was unanimous, and the previous 11 judges were allso all in agreement on the same evaluation. While other processes in fact have a more various iter with different opinions from different judges (like in the Albertso Stasi trial) in this case instead you have a consistent, predictable outcome.
Top Profile 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Lancelotti wrote:
Michael wrote:
Lancelotti wrote:
Michael wrote:
And that makes him different to Amanda and Raffaele how? If you want to keep score of lies, I think you'll find Raffaele and Amanda have Rudy beat hands down and there is certainly more truth in his version of that night's events then there is in their's. They've also been convicted of murder via numerous courts and judges don't you know. But I'm glad you at least admit the process is sound and therfore the verdicts are just.


the difference.. Amanda and Raffaele will eventually get off. Rudy won't.


How do you figure they'll get off? The verdict didn't just go against them, it was 'unanimous'. There wasn't so much as a hint of doubt. And only 12% of appeals in Italy succeed in overturning a verdict.


I think they'll have to wait for the 2nd appeal at the Supreme Court of Cassation.

from TJMK: "Approximately half of all sentences rendered in the first trial are in fact reversed during the appeal process, a percentage which is 3 times higher than France for example. The ones that are not reversed often see a decrease in punishment."


On what grounds?

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Italians shower Amanda Knox with Christmas gifts
By KOMO Staff and News Services
Story Published: Dec 20, 2009 at 11:04 AM PST
Story Updated: Dec 20, 2009 at 11:19 AM PST


KOMO NEWS

(Nothing new in this story from the ones earlier. However, there is a comments section which is likely to become active)

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline The Bard


User avatar


Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:46 pm

Posts: 2486

Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Zopi wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Mutley wrote:
lamaha wrote:
Zopi wrote:
stint7 wrote:
Bard eloquently explains:
Quote:
Deathfish, whilst I fully understand your dislike of Edda Mellas I don't think it is right or fair to post those pictures of her on the board in that way. However we feel about her she is clearly grieving deeply for the loss of her daughter, the circumstances surrounding that loss, and for the life they all had before all this happened. I know it is nothing like the loss that the Kerchers are having to cope with, but Edda did not kill Meredith. Amanda did. Edda is just doing all she knows how to in an agonising situation. I don't think we need to use phots of her weeping like this. It feels like bullying and it makes me feel uncomfortable. Just thought I would make the comment for the record. I have always felt we have an obligation, toward Meredith in a way, to rise above the sort of thing we might frown at the FOA doing. I just wonder how fair it is, that's all.
Bard


********
Hi Bard
I have probably read all 461 of your previous posts without a dimple of disagreement.
In fact on many occassions with a resounding... Yesssssss!

However, please allow me to express some scintilla of discomfort with your images issue, and your subsequent elaboration about "right and fair".

IMHO, Edda Mellas has made the conscious choice to unabashedly actively accomplish whatever illogical,immoral,and in fact often actually illegal, etc actions she does to get her daughter out of the (dormitory like) 'cell' in Perugia.
She places herself by her own choice in every media managed moment for hundreds of images for the world to see (and hopefully swallow).
She has totally tethered herself to the FOA/Marriott talking points, even on many occasions exceeding the scripted misstatements into bald faced lies, repeated by her daily with sickening sentimentality to include touching tears, in spite of readily available refutations.

Her deliberate dearth of compassion for an innocent man in prison and her deliberate decision to leave him there, as well as her disgusting diatribe about Meredith leaves me little in the way of respect for her right to pictorial anonymity here when "crying".

Couple of hackneyed old sayings:
1) The apple rarely falls far from the tree.
2) If you cannot stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

Edda Mellas's assinine actions and disgusting decisions have forever forfeited my concern for being 'right and fair' about her pictures.

Just my opinion, politely (and alliteratively) proffered

Best Regards


Interesting discussion indeed, may I add another saying?

Making the decision to have a child is momentous. It is to decide forever to have your heart go walking around outside your body. ~Elizabeth Stone

So, I am with Bard in this one.



Me, too. That's a beautiful quote, btw.


And just how far will you go to protect that child fom the consequences of their own actions? Lie for them? Leave an innocent man in prison? Villify a murder victim by making public innuendo about her sex life and add to the grief and pain of her family? Does the fact that it is your own child justify launching a campaign of lies and half truths and slanders to try and force her release?
...

To love your child is to support it but not excuse it. To nurture it to have compassion for others not a sense of entitlement and disregard for others.

...

Neither family have any regard or respect for anybody else. Others are just collateral damage in the trail of destruction and pain that their sense of supreme entitlement leaves behind. Perhaps if they had been brought up to have some boundaries on their own rights there would still be another family's child alive. Another parents' heart still walking outside their bodies.

...

She did not have to make a public crusade based on falsities, she CHOSE to. She CHOSE to use her family in front of the camera in any and every opportunity from outside the murder scene to inside the court. She COURTED those pictures because she thought she could use them. She may very well learn that those who live by the camera can be damned by it also.

...

It is not hard to see where they learnt it. Amanda and Raffaele may be forced to confront their reponsibilities, their actions and the consequences. Edda Mellas may learn the hard way as well. So be it. It was HER choice. If she had chosen privacy then the pictures would not be used and would not for most part exist at all. She loaded the gun and pulled the trigger. It is too late to bemoan shooting off her own foot.



It is hard to argue with this, in my opinion. I have read here and there on the internet that it's okay to do whatever it takes to get a loved one out of hot water. I find this attitude shocking and primitive. That isn't love; it is excessive amour propre (self love/regard), narcissism and lack of respect for the basic laws of civil society -- the ones each of us implicitly agrees to when we come in out of the jungle, give up our crude weapons and vigilante notions of right and wrong, and agree to yield some freedom in exchange for protection under a set of established laws. Hobbes said that life in the state of nature was mean, brutish, nasty and short. Thank goodness it was short.

In what moral universe is it acceptable that Edda Mellas and Amanda Knox let an innocent man languish in jail when both knew he did not belong there?

And that is just one question among many.

The most recent story about local citizens rallying to provide a care package for Amanda Knox? That's part of the PR strategy, which entails keeping Amanda Knox in the news, before the camera, on center stage. There will undoubtedly be a parallel effort in Seattle, possibly organized by well-heeled Catholics and a Jesuit community that would rather keep the faithful focused on anything but its own moral lapses.


The original discussion started about pictures of EM crying. I do believe she was genuinely crying and I did not like those pictures. There was no question about moral justification for her actions.


Thank you for clarifying that Zopi. As I said, I do not condone any of Edda's actions.

_________________
Top Profile 

Offline tom_ch


Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:40 am

Posts: 241

Location: CH

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:45 pm   Post subject: Re: My NEW AVATARA   

The 411 wrote:
Rudy claimed Meredith vented her anger by saying of AK: "Quella troia di una drogata!" To be clear, this is Rudy's version of the facts. So, it is not 100% certain that she said those exact words, or even if she thought those thoughts.
Even if she stated those sentiments about AK, it was never clear whether they were uttered in Italian, or whether Rudy had translated her words from English, in his diary.

Well, if she called her, for example, "that druggie bitch", most people I know would in fact translate that into Italian as "quella troia drogata", as for some reason they are taught that the English word "bitch"="troia". Strange to me, but that's what they learn.

Tom
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Processo Kercher: condannati Amanda Knox e Raffaele Sollecito
PERUGIA - Dopo 14 ore di camera di consiglio poco dopo la mezzanotte, la vita di Amanda Knox e Raffaele Sollecito è cambiata per sempre.
I giudici della Corte di Assise di Perugia hanno condannato i due giovani per l'omicidio di Meredith Kercher, uccisa a Perugia nella notte tra il primo e il 2 novembre del 2007.
Ad Amanda sono stati inflitti 26 anni di reclusione, a Raffaele 25 anni. A far da eco alle parole del presidente della corte Massei alla lettura del dispositivo, le lacrime di Amanda che abbracciata al suo avvocato Luciano Ghirga, mormorava “No, no...” . Nessuna reazione da parte invece, di Raffaele impassibile alla lettura del dispositivo.
Quando ha lasciato l'aula, la sorella gli ha urlato: “Forza, forza Raffaele...”
Amanda Knox e Raffaele Sollecito, sono stati condannati inoltre, al pagamento delle spese processuali, interdetti per sempre dai pubblici uffici; dovranno, inoltre, risarcire i familiari di Meredith. Naturalmente gli avvocati dei due ragazzi hanno annunciato che presenteranno appello.
Si è espresso in merito alla sentenza anche il senatore americano Maria Cantwell dichiarando: “Ho seri dubbi sul sistema giudiziario italiano e sul fatto che l'antiamericanismo abbia potuto inquinare questo processo. Comunicherò le mie preoccupazioni al segretario di Stato Hillary Clinton, ha concluso la Cantwell nella sua dichiarazione”.
A riportarlo è la Cnn che, come tutta la stampa americana, sta dando grande risalto alla sentenza ed alle proteste di familiari ed amici della studentessa di Seattle contro una sentenza ritenuta ingiusta.
“Vedere le persone fuori dal tribunale applaudire mi ha fatto venire la nausea, come fa la gente ad essere così fredda?” ha detto, tra le lacrime, la zia di Amanda, Janet Huff, intervistata subito dopo la sentenza. Intanto la famiglia di Amanda è pronta ad affrontare l’appello ed anche a trasferirsi in Italia. “Stiamo cercando appartamenti e lavori, non lasceremo Amanda da sola” ha aggiunto Janet Huff raccontando che la Knox “è sconvolta e spaventata a morte, ma è preoccupata per la sua famiglia e per questo rimane forte. Se lei crolla- conclude la zia- allora veramente perdiamo la speranza”.
I genitori di Amanda continuano a ripetere: “nostra figlia non è un'assassina. Ed alla fine sarà dichiarata innocente”.
Anche i familiari di Sollecito sono rimasti attoniti per la condanna.”Non hanno fatto il loro dovere, non lo hanno fatto fino in fondo. Dovevano assolverlo, Raffaele è innocente”. Queste le parole tra le lacrime della compagna del padre del giovane.Dall’altra parte c’è la soddisfazione dei legali di Mezz “E’ una sentenza che rende giustizia alla memoria di Meredith Kercher” queste le parole di Francesco Maresca che ha rappresentato insieme a Serena Perna la famiglia di Meredith “Una sentenza ottima – continua Maresca - e che ci soddisfa. Hanno riconosciuto l'ottimo lavoro fatto dagli inquirenti e nel corso del processo”. Soddisfattio anche il Pm Giuliano Mignini che ha commentato così la sentenza “Le nostre richieste sono state accolte, la Corte in sostanza ha condiviso l'impianto accusatorio. È una sentenza - ha aggiunto - che sicuramente le difese appelleranno. I giudici hanno ritenuto di concedere le attenuanti generiche ma comunque le nostre tesi sono state accolte. Leggeremo i motivi della sentenza - ha concluso -. Comunque noi a questo punto usciamo di scena”.
LE TAPPE DELL'UDIENZA:
Il 16 gennaio cominciano le udienze. La Corte d'assise di Perugia decide di celebrare il dibattimento a porte aperte ma senza riprese audio-video.
Il 6 febbraio i primi testi d'accusa ricostruiscono per le prime fasi dell'indagine.
Il 7 febbraio depone Filomena Romanelli, coinquilina di Kercher e Knox. "There is something strange" c' è qualcosa di strano, sono le parole che le disse l'americana la mattina del 2 novembre del 2007.
Il 13 febbario Amanda Knox chiede di parlare: "Sono innocente e ho fiducia che tutto si sistemerà". Poi depongono le amiche inglesi di Meredith.
Il 27 febbraio testimoniano gli investigatori della squadra mobile di Perugia. "Elementi oggettivi", come la scena del crimine, le "contraddizioni" tra gli imputati portarono a Sollecito e alla Knox.
Il 28 febbraio Gli avvocati di Amanda e Raffaele accusano la polizia per quanto avvenuto la notte del fermo alla questura di Perugia: "sono stati duri con noi" raccontano i ragazzi. Gli agenti rispondono che li hanno "trattati con massima cortesia e fermezza".
Il 20 marzo gli investigatori riferiscono che la notte del delitto i cellulari dei due imputati rimasero inattivi.
Il 27 marzo Nara Capezzali parla di un grido di donna, prolungato e straziante, "da fare accapponare la pelle" proveniente dalla casa del delitto.
Il 28 marzo testimonia il clochard Antonio Curatolo che notò Sollecito e la Knox la notte dell'omicidio in piazza Grimana.
Il 3 aprile testimonia il medico legale Luca Lalli e in aula vengono proposte a porte chiuse le immagini dell'autopsia.
Il 4 aprile è in aula Rudy Guede che si avvale della facoltà di non rispondere. Il 18 aprile la Corte d'assise compie un sopralluogo nella casa del delitto.
Il 23 aprile la Corte dissequestra l'abitazione di via della Pergola. L'allora responsabile della polizia scientifica Alberto Intini esclude la possibilità di una contaminazione della scena del delitto.
L'8 maggio testimona gli uomini della polizia scientifica: “nella casa del delitto trovate 61 impronte 'utili'”.
Il 22 e il 23 maggio sul banco dei testimoni sale la biologa della scientifica Patrizia Stefanoni. Spiega le 460 tracce analizzate,e dibatte con la difesa che in particolare si sofferma sulle tracce del Dna.
Il 29 maggio si concludono le deposizioni dei testi d'accusa anche se il 5 giugno viene risentito il medico legale Luca Lalli. Il 6 giugno sono in aula i familiari di Meredith. "La cerco ancora..." dice la madre Arline.
Il 12 e il 13 giugno è il giorno dell'interrogatorio di Amanda Knox che racconta che non era in casa la momento del delitto.
Il 19 giugno testimoniano Francesco Sollecito, il padre di Raffaele, ed Edda Mellas, la madre di Amanda Knox.
Il 20 giugno uno dei consulenti della difesa Sollecito dice: Mez uccisa da un solo aggressore con un solo coltello.
Il 9 ottobre la Corte respinge la richiesta delle difese di svolgere una nuova perizia sul Dna. Il 21 novembre i pm Giuliano Mignini e Manuela Comodi chiedono la condanna all'ergastolo.
Il 27 novembre l’arringa delle parti civili. Per il legale della famiglia della Mez, il dibattimento è stato tale da permettere alla Corte di condannare i due imputati. Per il legale di Patrick Lumumba "poche parole di Amanda lo hanno distrutto".
Il 28 e il 30 novembre parlano i difensori di Sollecito, Giulia Bongiorno e Luca Maori. Affermando che un colpevo gia c’è ed è “Guede, assolvete Raffaele”.
Il primo e il 2 dicembre parlano i difensori della Knox Carlo Dalla Vedova e Luciano Ghirga: "lei non era nella camera del delitto e va assolta".
4 dicembre, la corte è entrata in camera di consiglio per la sentenza.
(Foto dalla rete)

05/12/09 12:45 Amalia Coletta



NOTIZIARIO ITALIA


When someone has the time, could we have a translation of this please? Or at the very least, of the court Timeline part. I think this will be an essential resource for those researching the case as they can use that to get the date of the testimony of each witness/expert and then track those dates back in the main discussion threads. Thank you in advance.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline The Bard


User avatar


Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:46 pm

Posts: 2486

Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

tigerfish wrote:
The Bard wrote:

It is the compassion that tigerfish found so lacking in me before!


I am sure I didn't accuse you of lacking compassion. If I did, I apologize without reservation.
Except for a few truly great enlightened souls, we all have limitations on our capacity for compassion.
Probably we are only able to feel it when we recognize something of ourselves in that person.
What I recognize in AK - is that I would absolutely not want to be experiencing life from inside that skull of hers.


Awww tigerfish. I don't really remember now, it was a discussion about feeling compassion for Amanda because we could all find herself in her place. I think I was feeling a bit grumpy that day and took you on - which I would stand by. The interesting thing about this trial is that it messes with the emotions so much. Everyone, male, female, parent and non-parent, seems to be affected by the youth of the people involved. On the one hand the youth and hope embodied in Meredith, and on the other the youth and the sheer wickedness and waste of life for the other three. I am torn between anger, disbelief and horror and then sudden stabs of intense compassion on reading some fact or other. As the judge said in his summing up, it is easy to see the defendants before you and feel pity because of their extreme youth, but you have to stop yourself and think only of the victim, Meredith, and her parents only being able to visit her grave, or you could not do your job properly. The emotions get thrown all over the place for me. I used to say here (to the amusement of some, Snape!) that I was having a 'they didn't do it' day. That has gone now, but the emotions still surface. I think it is just sheer disbelief that people can be so cruel, and lie with a smile on their faces. And yes, that goes for Edda too. And Janet. And Curt. Their ability to sit in front of a camera, or to go on record and bare faced LIE is quite breath-taking. No wonder Amanda does it so effortlessly.

_________________
Top Profile 

Offline Lancelotti


Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:09 pm

Posts: 378

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Yummi wrote:
Quote:
from TJMK: "Approximately half of all sentences rendered in the first trial are in fact reversed during the appeal process, a percentage which is 3 times higher than France for example. The ones that are not reversed often see a decrease in punishment."


Lancelotti update your research, check/quote better your source before posting bs out of any context. Only about 1 in 10 sentences is reformed ('reveersed') in the appeal.

for the full context, look here


Quote:
I predict that in this case if the evidence set in the appeal is the same of that in the first degree, the result will be the same.

sure, same procedure as every year...

what about the independent experts the defence team had asked for to review the DNA evidence? will they be allowed in or not?
Top Profile 

Offline The Bard


User avatar


Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:46 pm

Posts: 2486

Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Lancelotti wrote:
Yummi wrote:
Quote:
from TJMK: "Approximately half of all sentences rendered in the first trial are in fact reversed during the appeal process, a percentage which is 3 times higher than France for example. The ones that are not reversed often see a decrease in punishment."


Lancelotti update your research, check/quote better your source before posting bs out of any context. Only about 1 in 10 sentences is reformed ('reveersed') in the appeal.

for the full context, look here


Quote:
I predict that in this case if the evidence set in the appeal is the same of that in the first degree, the result will be the same.

sure, same procedure as every year...

what about the independent experts the defence team had asked for to review the DNA evidence? will they be allowed in or not?


I really cannot see the verdict being overturned on appeal. It would be most peculiar to my mind. We know how thorough the trial was, and how many judges looked at the evidence. They felt that the evidence was 'overwhelming'. Also the verdict was unanimous. I could imagine other cases being overturned (Barry George for example) but not this one. The evidence is too strong.

Good to see the press coverage dying down about the case though. I think Marriot is going to have to do better than a bunch of presents from local shopkeepers to keep the case in the news before long. And it doesn't really fit too well with the backward and uncivilised Italy they have tried to portray so far does it!

_________________
Top Profile 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Lancelotti wrote:
what about the independent experts the defence team had asked for to review the DNA evidence? will they be allowed in or not?


Why would/should they be?

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline tigger3498


User avatar


Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:49 pm

Posts: 158

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

stint7 wrote:
tigger wrote:
Quote:
I don't know much about the Italian judicial process but, it seems to me that they allow you to speak when you have a desire to do so. Very humane.


Actually, the system is even more humane than you cite.
In Italian trials, the defendant may (and is usually expected) *to lie* .

LOL! Yes, Stint, well aware of this fact! Been following for quite some time. What I like is that it appears they allow the defendants to just speak up at any time.........Being prone to hoof in mouth, it wouldn't work well for me.........LOL!
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline piktor


User avatar


Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:30 pm

Posts: 1081

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

The Bard wrote:
I think it is just sheer disbelief that people can be so cruel, and lie with a smile on their faces. And yes, that goes for Edda too. And Janet. And Curt. Their ability to sit in front of a camera, or to go on record and bare faced LIE is quite breath-taking. No wonder Amanda does it so effortlessly.

The only point of comparison amidst the devastation is Meredith Kercher's parents and siblings.

The Kercher family has been exemplary in their restraint and quiet dignity.

The Knox's efforts on behalf of their Amanda is laughable.

We should all learn from the uncommon grace shown by the Kercher family.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline sam spade


User avatar


Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:16 pm

Posts: 59

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

piktor wrote:
The Bard wrote:
I think it is just sheer disbelief that people can be so cruel, and lie with a smile on their faces. And yes, that goes for Edda too. And Janet. And Curt. Their ability to sit in front of a camera, or to go on record and bare faced LIE is quite breath-taking. No wonder Amanda does it so effortlessly.

The only point of comparison amidst the devastation is Meredith Kercher's parents and siblings.

The Kercher family has been exemplary in their restraint and quiet dignity.

The Knox's efforts on behalf of their Amanda is laughable.

We should all learn from the uncommon grace shown by the Kercher family.


cl-) Hear Hear!

I agree with those of you who see through EM's manipulative behavior. The photos demonstrate that and I appreciated their inclusion. She and the FOAkers are reprehensible in their cavalier disregard for the Kerchers or Meredith's death. It seems to only be about them! BTW, I am a mother of three (and a psychotherapist) and love them enormously, but one has to be a whole person FOR them, not cripple them with one's own needs. This Edda does not demonstrate. (IMHO)
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Lancelotti wrote:
what about the independent experts the defence team had asked for to review the DNA evidence? will they be allowed in or not?


You're assuming that Dr. Patrizia Stefanoni is not an independent expert. She is. As an independent expert, her job is to collect any forensic evidence from a crime scene, perform tests on it in her laboratory in Rome and then inform the relevant authorities of the test results. The results show what they show.

Amanda Knox made a false and malicious allegation against Diya Lumuba, which led to his arrest and imprisonment. At first, he didn't have any witnesses to provide him with an alibi and Amanda Knox didn't retract her allegation the whole time he was in prison. When it became clear there was no forensic evidence against Lumumba and he had a cast iron alibi he was released from prison.

The prosecutors and police in Perugia are not out to frame innocent people. They wait for the forensic results to come back from Rome before deciding whether the suspects have a case to answer. It's that simple. There was no forensic evidence against Diya Lumumba and he was duly released from prison.

However, the forensic results implicated both Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito.

Dr. Stefanoni identified Meredith's DNA on the blade of the knife sequestered from Sollecito's apartment. Sollecito knew that Meredith's DNA was on the blade which is why he claimed on two separate occasions that he had accidentally pricked Meredith whilst cooking.

An abundant amount of Raffaele Sollecito's DNA was found on Meredith's bra clasp.

Three sets of different sized bloody footprints were found at the crime scene. These bloody footprints matched the foot sizes of Amanda Knox, Raffaele Sollecito and Rudy Guede.

Two independent imprint experts categorically excluded the possibility that the bloody footprint on the blue bathmat could belong to Rudy Guede, but attributed it Raffaele Sollecito. One of the imprint experts testified that the bloody footprint on the blue bathmat matched the precise characteristics of Sollecito’s foot.

Dr. Stefanoni found Meredith's blood in various parts of the cottage. When she analysed it, she found it was mixed with Amanda Knox's DNA in five places in three different locations, including Filomena's room, where the break-in was staged.

With the double DNA knife, there was a total of six instances of the Amanda Knox-Meredith Kercher combination of genetic traces. Do you really believe that it is a coincidence that there were six incriminating instances of this combination of genetic traces?

There was an independent review of the forensic evidence in 2008. Dr. Renato Biondo, the head of the DNA Unit of the scientific police, reviewed Dr. Stefanoni's investigation and the forensic findings. He confirmed that the forensic findings were accurate and reliable. He also praised the work of Dr. Stefanoni and her team.
Top Profile 

Offline Hammerite


User avatar


Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:46 pm

Posts: 517

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Michael wrote:
Lancelotti wrote:
what about the independent experts the defence team had asked for to review the DNA evidence? will they be allowed in or not?


Why would/should they be?


Additional Independent “experts” does not guarantee more accurate “experts”.

If the world is to continue turning on its axis we need to accept certain laws of nature. One of these could be that a randomly chosen adjudicating panel have the intelligence, integrity and objectivity to evaluate fairly the evidence presented to them. This is accepted by the system in the USA.

Those parts of the American (USA) media have not voiced serious reservations about the integrity of the Italian judicial during the past decades; it is difficult to take their protestations serious now when they zero in on one particular case that is promoted by a PR firm. They need to be consistent over time to be given serious consideration. Making spontaneous unsubstantiated sweeping generalisations does not add any serious weight to their argument.


Last edited by Hammerite on Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:14 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Emerald


User avatar


Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:53 am

Posts: 1706

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

I was looking back at some file video of Amanda in court. In most, Amanda holds her wrists so it looks as if she is handcuffed. Closer inspection reveals she is not.

Is she doing this purposefully to seem more demure and victimized?
Top Profile 

Offline SomeAlibi


User avatar


Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:23 pm

Posts: 1932

Highscores: 7

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

piktor wrote:
The Bard wrote:
I think it is just sheer disbelief that people can be so cruel, and lie with a smile on their faces. And yes, that goes for Edda too. And Janet. And Curt. Their ability to sit in front of a camera, or to go on record and bare faced LIE is quite breath-taking. No wonder Amanda does it so effortlessly.

The only point of comparison amidst the devastation is Meredith Kercher's parents and siblings.

The Kercher family has been exemplary in their restraint and quiet dignity.

The Knox's efforts on behalf of their Amanda is laughable.

We should all learn from the uncommon grace shown by the Kercher family.



I find the Knox family lacking in taste and compassion, inconsiderate in the extreme. I cringe at many of their quotations. I am hugely uncomfortable at the timeframe where Patrick was under arrest. At the same time I don't really like seeing the Edda pictures crying because they don't look remotely faked to me. I wouldn't remotely underestimate the power of self-delusion and denial that goes with being a parent when your child is that situation. It would be powerful beyond belief. They are a crude and non-empathetic family group but I don't think pictures of a mother's distress is faked up when taken so many times. I'd say, focus on the outrageousness of statements that are insupportable and criticise them robustly. That stuff is outrageous and should be hammered into the ground. This is where the FOA should be rounded on with all might. But the pics of a mother crying in court? Ditch them - the distress is real.

_________________
What it is is spin lent credence because it's from the mouth of a lawyer. We've seen how much gravitas they can carry merely by saying something is or is not so when often they are speaking as much rubbish as anyone else.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline piktor


User avatar


Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:30 pm

Posts: 1081

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

********************HEARINGS TIMELINE******************

(This is an uncorrected GoogleTranslation)


On January 16, begin the hearings. The Court of Assizes of Perugia decided to celebrate the hearing in open court but without audio-video.

On 6 February the first pieces of the prosecution to reconstruct the early stages of the investigation.

On February 7, deposes Filomena Romanelli, roommate of Kercher and Knox. "There is something strange" 's something strange, are the words that said the American on the morning of November 2, 2007.

13 febbario Amanda Knox asks to speak: "I am innocent and I trust that everything will settle down." Then lay their English friends of Meredith.

On February 27 testimony to investigators of the flying squad of Perugia. "The facts" as the crime scene, the "contradictions" between the defendants brought to Sollecito and Knox.

On February 28, Amanda and Raffaele's lawyers accuse the police for what happened the night of boarding at the police headquarters in Perugia, "were hard on us" tell the boys. The officers respond that they have "treated with utmost courtesy and firmness."

On March 20, the investigators report that the night of the murder of the two defendants were cell phones inactive.

On March 27, Nara Capezzali about a woman screaming, prolonged and agonizing, "to make flesh creep" from the house of the crime.

On March 28, testifies to the homeless Antonio Curatolo noted that Sollecito and Knox on the night of the murder in the square Grimana.

On April 3 testimony and the medical examiner Luca Lalli classroom are offered in camera images of the autopsy.

On April 4 and Rudy Guede in court which exercises the right to remain silent. On 18 April the Court of Assizes in the house makes an inspection of the crime.

On 23 April the Court unfrozen housing via della Pergola. The then head of forensic Alberto Intini exclude the possibility of contamination of the scene of the crime.

On May 8, is testament to the men of the forensic "the murder house 61 fingerprints found 'useful'."

On 22 and 23 May on the witness stand salt forensic biologist Patrizia Stefanon i. Explain the 460 traces analyzed and discussed with the defense that in particular focuses on the traces of DNA.

On May 29, concludes the testimony of the texts even if the charges June 5 is affected by the medical examiner Luca Lalli.
On 6 June, the family of classroom Meredith. "The more I try ..." says the mother Arline.

12 and June 13 is the day of the interrogation of Amanda Knox said that it was not at home at the time of the crime.

On June 19 testimony Francesco Sollecito, Raffaele's father, and Edda Mellas, the mother of Amanda Knox.

On June 20, a senior advisor to Defense Sollecito says Mez killed by a single attacker with only a knife.

On 9 October, the Court rejected the request of Defense to conduct a new report on the DNA.
On 21 November, Giuliano Mignini and Manuela are comfortable calling the sentence to life imprisonment.

On 27 November the harangue of the civil parties. For the office of the family of Mez, the debate has been such as to enable the Court to sentence the two defendants. For the lawyer Patrick Lumumba "a few words of Amanda have destroyed."

On 28 and 30 November the defenders speak of reminder, Giulia Bongiorno and Luca Maori. Arguing that there is already a hit and is "Guede, Raffaele absolve.

The first and December 2 defenders speak of Knox Carlo Dalla Vedova and Luciano Ghirga, "she was not in the room of the crime and must be paid.

4 December, the Court entered into closed session for the verdict.

http://translate.google.com/translate?j ... l=it&tl=en

Original Italian version
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Lancelotti wrote:
Yummi wrote:
Quote:
from TJMK: "Approximately half of all sentences rendered in the first trial are in fact reversed during the appeal process, a percentage which is 3 times higher than France for example. The ones that are not reversed often see a decrease in punishment."


Lancelotti update your research, check/quote better your source before posting bs out of any context. Only about 1 in 10 sentences is reformed ('reveersed') in the appeal.

for the full context, look here


Quote:
I predict that in this case if the evidence set in the appeal is the same of that in the first degree, the result will be the same.

sure, same procedure as every year...

what about the independent experts the defence team had asked for to review the DNA evidence? will they be allowed in or not?


In fact, as I understand it, the TJMK is referring to all cases that are appealed, not just criminal cases.
Here is the relevant paragraph. Most posters who commented on the article understood that AK and RS stand a chance of having their sentences reduced but not a 50/50 chance of having them overturned:

"Besides the broad appeal rights granted by the Italian law, an ulterior incentive to appeal is given by the fact that Italy has a very high “Reversal Rate” during the appeal process. Approximately half of all sentences rendered in the first trial are in fact reversed during the appeal process, a percentage which is 3 times higher than France for example. The ones that are not reversed often see a decrease in punishment."

_________________
Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point; on le sait en mille choses.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline The Bard


User avatar


Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:46 pm

Posts: 2486

Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Has anyone heard anything about Papa Sollecito since the verdict?

I read one interview with Raff's sister (usual stuff) but no real news stories and coverage of their plans re the appeal etc. The outrage is absent. It can only help Raff, and I think they are clever enough to realise the foolishness of the song and dance the KMs are making. All the same, I am surprised there was not more coverage or comment right after the verdict.

_________________
Top Profile 

Offline piktor


User avatar


Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:30 pm

Posts: 1081

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

sam spade wrote:

I agree with those of you who see through EM's manipulative behavior. The photos demonstrate that and I appreciated their inclusion. She and the FOAkers are reprehensible in their cavalier disregard for the Kerchers or Meredith's death. It seems to only be about them! BTW, I am a mother of three (and a psychotherapist) and love them enormously, but one has to be a whole person FOR them, not cripple them with one's own needs. This Edda does not demonstrate. (IMHO)

Thank you for your kind words, sam spade, they are much appreciated. th-)

I have no idea what the FOAggers' dog and pony show hopes to accomplish. If anything, it has done zero to help its cause. If what they pretend is to look mighty shrill and mighty inept, then, mission accomplished!
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

SomeAlibi wrote:
piktor wrote:
The Bard wrote:
I think it is just sheer disbelief that people can be so cruel, and lie with a smile on their faces. And yes, that goes for Edda too. And Janet. And Curt. Their ability to sit in front of a camera, or to go on record and bare faced LIE is quite breath-taking. No wonder Amanda does it so effortlessly.

The only point of comparison amidst the devastation is Meredith Kercher's parents and siblings.

The Kercher family has been exemplary in their restraint and quiet dignity.

The Knox's efforts on behalf of their Amanda is laughable.

We should all learn from the uncommon grace shown by the Kercher family.



I find the Knox family lacking in taste and compassion, inconsiderate in the extreme. I cringe at many of their quotations. I am hugely uncomfortable at the timeframe where Patrick was under arrest. At the same time I don't really like seeing the Edda pictures crying because they don't look remotely faked to me. I wouldn't remotely underestimate the power of self-delusion and denial that goes with being a parent when your child is that situation. It would be powerful beyond belief. They are a crude and non-empathetic family group but I don't think pictures of a mother's distress is faked up when taken so many times. I'd say, focus on the outrageousness of statements that are insupportable and criticise them robustly. That stuff is outrageous and should be hammered into the ground. This is where the FOA should be rounded on with all might. But the pics of a mother crying in court? Ditch them - the distress is real.


I don't doubt her distress is real either. However, I do believe her timing for her succumbing to that distress while on camera is quite deliberate and calculated.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Piktor wrote:
********************HEARINGS TIMELINE******************

(This is an uncorrected GoogleTranslation)


Thanks Piktor. But, since I want it to go into one of our reference sections as a proper Timeline it needs a professional translation. Not because it isn't understandable as it is, but because as an official site record it needs to be done professionally in order to be credible. I will not have it said by those that wish to put this site down that we rely on Google translations for our primary data.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline nicki

Forensics Moderator


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:27 am

Posts: 847

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:

The most recent story about local citizens rallying to provide a care package for Amanda Knox? That's part of the PR strategy, which entails keeping Amanda Knox in the news, before the camera, on center stage. There will undoubtedly be a parallel effort in Seattle, possibly organized by well-heeled Catholics and a Jesuit community that would rather keep the faithful focused on anything but its own moral lapses.


So far, nowhere on the local press in Italy there 's any mention of local citizens rallying to provide Knox a Christmas shower. But every year, prisoners in Italy benefits from the Christmas activities of several charity organizations, which include the gathering of gifts for inmates, and Knox is just one of them. I agree the Seattle PR is spinning more lies. When will they ever stop?

_________________
"A pensare male si fa peccato, ma molto spesso ci si azzecca" mike
Top Profile 

Offline SomeAlibi


User avatar


Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:23 pm

Posts: 1932

Highscores: 7

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:58 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Michael wrote:
SomeAlibi wrote:
piktor wrote:
The Bard wrote:
I think it is just sheer disbelief that people can be so cruel, and lie with a smile on their faces. And yes, that goes for Edda too. And Janet. And Curt. Their ability to sit in front of a camera, or to go on record and bare faced LIE is quite breath-taking. No wonder Amanda does it so effortlessly.

The only point of comparison amidst the devastation is Meredith Kercher's parents and siblings.

The Kercher family has been exemplary in their restraint and quiet dignity.

The Knox's efforts on behalf of their Amanda is laughable.

We should all learn from the uncommon grace shown by the Kercher family.



I find the Knox family lacking in taste and compassion, inconsiderate in the extreme. I cringe at many of their quotations. I am hugely uncomfortable at the timeframe where Patrick was under arrest. At the same time I don't really like seeing the Edda pictures crying because they don't look remotely faked to me. I wouldn't remotely underestimate the power of self-delusion and denial that goes with being a parent when your child is that situation. It would be powerful beyond belief. They are a crude and non-empathetic family group but I don't think pictures of a mother's distress is faked up when taken so many times. I'd say, focus on the outrageousness of statements that are insupportable and criticise them robustly. That stuff is outrageous and should be hammered into the ground. This is where the FOA should be rounded on with all might. But the pics of a mother crying in court? Ditch them - the distress is real.


I don't doubt her distress is real either. However, I do believe her timing for her succumbing to that distress while on camera is quite deliberate and calculated.


Yeah, I don't discount the possibility for sure. But these ones were court candids that I was talking about. We're not saying she's faking it for the court candids are we?

_________________
What it is is spin lent credence because it's from the mouth of a lawyer. We've seen how much gravitas they can carry merely by saying something is or is not so when often they are speaking as much rubbish as anyone else.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Lancelotti


Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:09 pm

Posts: 378

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Lancelotti wrote:
Yummi wrote:
Quote:
from TJMK: "Approximately half of all sentences rendered in the first trial are in fact reversed during the appeal process, a percentage which is 3 times higher than France for example. The ones that are not reversed often see a decrease in punishment."


Lancelotti update your research, check/quote better your source before posting bs out of any context. Only about 1 in 10 sentences is reformed ('reveersed') in the appeal.

for the full context, look here


Quote:
I predict that in this case if the evidence set in the appeal is the same of that in the first degree, the result will be the same.

sure, same procedure as every year...

what about the independent experts the defence team had asked for to review the DNA evidence? will they be allowed in or not?


In fact, as I understand it, the TJMK is referring to all cases that are appealed, not just criminal cases.
Here is the relevant paragraph. Most posters who commented on the article understood that AK and RS stand a chance of having their sentences reduced but not a 50/50 chance of having them overturned:

"Besides the broad appeal rights granted by the Italian law, an ulterior incentive to appeal is given by the fact that Italy has a very high “Reversal Rate” during the appeal process. Approximately half of all sentences rendered in the first trial are in fact reversed during the appeal process, a percentage which is 3 times higher than France for example. The ones that are not reversed often see a decrease in punishment."


If 50% of all sentences are reversed during the appeal process, it certainly does NOT mean AK and RS have a 50/50 chance of having their sentence overturned, that's right!
Top Profile 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

SomeAlibi wrote:
Yeah, I don't discount the possibility for sure. But these ones were court candids that I was talking about. We're not saying she's faking it for the court candids are we?


No, no. My comment was aimed generally at her bursting into tears when in interview in whatever setting (although she does it a bit less now then she used to)...I should have clarified. While in court, that's the proper context to cry and is to be expected and I don't have a negative opinion on her doing so in that context.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Lancelotti wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Lancelotti wrote:
Yummi wrote:
Quote:
from TJMK: "Approximately half of all sentences rendered in the first trial are in fact reversed during the appeal process, a percentage which is 3 times higher than France for example. The ones that are not reversed often see a decrease in punishment."


Lancelotti update your research, check/quote better your source before posting bs out of any context. Only about 1 in 10 sentences is reformed ('reveersed') in the appeal.

for the full context, look here


Quote:
I predict that in this case if the evidence set in the appeal is the same of that in the first degree, the result will be the same.

sure, same procedure as every year...

what about the independent experts the defence team had asked for to review the DNA evidence? will they be allowed in or not?


In fact, as I understand it, the TJMK is referring to all cases that are appealed, not just criminal cases.
Here is the relevant paragraph. Most posters who commented on the article understood that AK and RS stand a chance of having their sentences reduced but not a 50/50 chance of having them overturned:

"Besides the broad appeal rights granted by the Italian law, an ulterior incentive to appeal is given by the fact that Italy has a very high “Reversal Rate” during the appeal process. Approximately half of all sentences rendered in the first trial are in fact reversed during the appeal process, a percentage which is 3 times higher than France for example. The ones that are not reversed often see a decrease in punishment."


If 50% of all sentences are reversed during the appeal process, it certainly does NOT mean AK and RS have a 50/50 chance of having their sentence overturned, that's right!


Yes, but my point is that the statistic in the original article refers to all cases, not just criminal ones, and certainly not just murder.

_________________
Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point; on le sait en mille choses.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline nicki

Forensics Moderator


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:27 am

Posts: 847

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:07 pm   Post subject: Re: My NEW AVATARA   

tom_ch wrote:
The 411 wrote:
Rudy claimed Meredith vented her anger by saying of AK: "Quella troia di una drogata!" To be clear, this is Rudy's version of the facts. So, it is not 100% certain that she said those exact words, or even if she thought those thoughts.
Even if she stated those sentiments about AK, it was never clear whether they were uttered in Italian, or whether Rudy had translated her words from English, in his diary.

Well, if she called her, for example, "that druggie bitch", most people I know would in fact translate that into Italian as "quella troia drogata", as for some reason they are taught that the English word "bitch"="troia". Strange to me, but that's what they learn.

Tom

Hi Tom,
when the epithet "troia" is used in reference to someone who doesn't practice the "oldest profession of the world", it mainly means " slut", if the context is sexual, or differently, " very nasty woman", to stress someone's unapproapriate, rude and nasty behavior.

The word "troia" is very vulgar and it is basically the worst epithet one would choose to define a woman-it's much stronger than "bitch".

_________________
"A pensare male si fa peccato, ma molto spesso ci si azzecca" mike
Top Profile 

Offline equinox


User avatar


Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:22 pm

Posts: 140

Location: WA, USA

Highscores: 7

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Were it true, the highly publicized accusation against the Italian judicial system and the prosecutor in particular, that they have accused and convicted AK to "save face" would surely backfire in the appeal. If all involved in the prosecution were acting solely to "save face," and they were to then acquit the accused in appeal, this would appear to confirm the accusation against them of acting against her only to protect their honor. They can't let this happen, so to truly save face they would need to confirm the conviction and not allow it to be overturned - in order to save face against the accusation of only acting to save face.

Sorry for the circular logic, but it would seem another angle from which the PR campaign is doing AK a profound disservice in trying to manipulate the outcome of the trial. And of course, if one examines the facts carefully, this is clearly not why the convictions were pursued or confirmed, I am just following the logic of "What if?".
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Lancelotti wrote:
If 50% of all sentences are reversed during the appeal process, it certainly does NOT mean AK and RS have a 50/50 chance of having their sentence overturned, that's right!


Lancelotti...if you 'do' have a point to make, can you please make it?

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Lancelotti


Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:09 pm

Posts: 378

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

The Machine wrote:
Lancelotti wrote:
what about the independent experts the defence team had asked for to review the DNA evidence? will they be allowed in or not?


You're assuming that Dr. Patrizia Stefanoni is not an independent expert. She is. As an independent expert, her job is to collect any forensic evidence from a crime scene, perform tests on it in her laboratory in Rome and then inform the relevant authorities of the test results. The results show what they show.


Prosecutors and police had a theory before the forensic evidence came in. There was no talk of 'multiple killers' and 'staged break-in' before that theory, which at the time involved Lumumba, who was later replaced by Guede, came about.
Top Profile 

Offline Lancelotti


Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:09 pm

Posts: 378

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Michael wrote:
Lancelotti wrote:
If 50% of all sentences are reversed during the appeal process, it certainly does NOT mean AK and RS have a 50/50 chance of having their sentence overturned, that's right!


Lancelotti...if you 'do' have a point to make, can you please make it?


I just wanted to clarify that I never said that ;)
Top Profile 

Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Lancelotti wrote:
Michael wrote:
Lancelotti wrote:
If 50% of all sentences are reversed during the appeal process, it certainly does NOT mean AK and RS have a 50/50 chance of having their sentence overturned, that's right!


Lancelotti...if you 'do' have a point to make, can you please make it?


I just wanted to clarify that I never said that ;)



No, Lancelotti, but your initial statement, combined with your recent assertion that AK and RS (you always forget RG, but whatever) will walk on appeal, just muddied the waters. For the sake of clarity, let's just note that murder convictions are not "usually" or even "often" overturned on appeal. Edda Mellas has also made statements to this effect, and they only confuse matters.

_________________
Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point; on le sait en mille choses.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline SomeAlibi


User avatar


Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:23 pm

Posts: 1932

Highscores: 7

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Hopefully one just in a spirit of a little light-heartedness I'd share with you.... After the earlier post stuff, I took the family out for lunch today and we're all sitting around ordering. My four and seven year olds have their mango juice (nice Mexican place), my wife decides on a coke and I'm umm'ing and ahh'ing about the food. So I order the food and then the waitress says to me, "but what about your drink sir? Would you like a glass of wine with your food?". And I look at her and say "Thank you, no". Just right there and then I decided I was right off a glass of wine at the present!

_________________
What it is is spin lent credence because it's from the mouth of a lawyer. We've seen how much gravitas they can carry merely by saying something is or is not so when often they are speaking as much rubbish as anyone else.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Lancelotti wrote:
The Machine wrote:
Lancelotti wrote:
what about the independent experts the defence team had asked for to review the DNA evidence? will they be allowed in or not?


You're assuming that Dr. Patrizia Stefanoni is not an independent expert. She is. As an independent expert, her job is to collect any forensic evidence from a crime scene, perform tests on it in her laboratory in Rome and then inform the relevant authorities of the test results. The results show what they show.


Prosecutors and police had a theory before the forensic evidence came in. There was no talk of 'multiple killers' and 'staged break-in' before that theory, which at the time involved Lumumba, who was later replaced by Guede, came about.


And your point is?
I believe the first officers on the scene realized the break-in was staged. They didn't have a theory; they saw what they saw. Having worked in the area of insurance fraud, which quite often involves faking break-ins, I am not surprised at this.

_________________
Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point; on le sait en mille choses.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline bilko


User avatar


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:25 pm

Posts: 198

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Haven't been around for a while. Too busy getting my bags packed for Italy, should Donald Trump call. I've just read through the comments about Edda and I've got to say I'm with the Bard on this one. I can't help but feel a little sympathy for the woman. In her position, I would fight to the death for my off-spring and like many things in life, I don't know how effective I would be. The woman doesn't come across as particularly likeable, the family seems a bit strange to me. Some their tactics are awful, in my opinion, but I would rather spend my time trawling the net pointing out the flaws in their propaganda and debunking it. I draw the line at capitalising on their grief. I know that others see it differently, but I think that it is good for them to see that there are alternative ways of dealing with them.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline piktor


User avatar


Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:30 pm

Posts: 1081

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Michael wrote:
Piktor wrote:
********************HEARINGS TIMELINE******************

(This is an uncorrected GoogleTranslation)


Thanks Piktor. But, since I want it to go into one of our reference sections as a proper Timeline it needs a professional translation. Not because it isn't understandable as it is, but because as an official site record it needs to be done professionally in order to be credible. I will not have it said by those that wish to put this site down that we rely on Google translations for our primary data.

Michael, you're welcome. You can't complain you don't have motivated, eager readers here! oop-)
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Lancelotti wrote:
Prosecutors and police had a theory before the forensic evidence came in.


Are you saying that Mignini and Comodi, and the numerous police officers from different departments had the same theory?
Top Profile 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

equinox wrote:
Were it true, the highly publicized accusation against the Italian judicial system and the prosecutor in particular, that they have accused and convicted AK to "save face" would surely backfire in the appeal. If all involved in the prosecution were acting solely to "save face," and they were to then acquit the accused in appeal, this would appear to confirm the accusation against them of acting against her only to protect their honor. They can't let this happen, so to truly save face they would need to confirm the conviction and not allow it to be overturned - in order to save face against the accusation of only acting to save face.

Sorry for the circular logic, but it would seem another angle from which the PR campaign is doing AK a profound disservice in trying to manipulate the outcome of the trial. And of course, if one examines the facts carefully, this is clearly not why the convictions were pursued or confirmed, I am just following the logic of "What if?".


Actually, I can't tell you how much this whole thing pisses me off. They were convicted of murder, fabricating a crime scene, the illegal transportation of a knife and last but not least, criminal slander that in part ruined an innocent person's life. The prosecution asked for life (with 9 months solitary for Amanda) and under Italian law they were entitled to ask for life. The court did not apply that sentence. They could have then applied the next most severe sentence...30 years. They didn't apply that, instead they handed out 26 and 25 years respectively without any solitary. Amanda could be out of jail in as little as 10 - 12 years with day release and outside work even before that. And as jails go in the World, Italian jails are pretty damned cushy. The court showed them both unprecedented mercy (unprecedented to what we'd see in our systems in the UK or US) and compassion. Instead of being grateful for that, what has been the response of the supporters of Amanda? To increase even louder their lies and assault on the prosecutor, the experts, the judges and even the whole of Italy. It's a disgrace. Someone needs to tell these people so they understand, that there are other people in this Universe and it was not created exclusively for them. I struggle to understand where this innate concept of privilege and entitlement these people have comes from, why they feel they need to parade it in front of the World on a regular basis and why they think we should all give a damn!


_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Emerald


User avatar


Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:53 am

Posts: 1706

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Lancelotti wrote:
If 50% of all sentences are reversed during the appeal process, it certainly does NOT mean AK and RS have a 50/50 chance of having their sentence overturned, that's right!


When we discussed this in the past, it was indicated a very low percentage of decisions are overturned in the appeal process. Less than 20% on average. Closer to 12%, IIRC. The length of the sentence is most often the only change.
Top Profile 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Lancelotti wrote:
The Machine wrote:
Lancelotti wrote:
what about the independent experts the defence team had asked for to review the DNA evidence? will they be allowed in or not?


You're assuming that Dr. Patrizia Stefanoni is not an independent expert. She is. As an independent expert, her job is to collect any forensic evidence from a crime scene, perform tests on it in her laboratory in Rome and then inform the relevant authorities of the test results. The results show what they show.


Prosecutors and police had a theory before the forensic evidence came in. There was no talk of 'multiple killers' and 'staged break-in' before that theory, which at the time involved Lumumba, who was later replaced by Guede, came about.


Of course there was talk of a staged break-in before the evidence came in...the Postal Police said it was clear it was one the moment they walked into Filomena's room. As for the multiple attackers that came from Meredith's autopsy and Amanda's own statement on the night of the 5th!

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline SomeAlibi


User avatar


Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:23 pm

Posts: 1932

Highscores: 7

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Michael wrote:
equinox wrote:
Were it true, the highly publicized accusation against the Italian judicial system and the prosecutor in particular, that they have accused and convicted AK to "save face" would surely backfire in the appeal. If all involved in the prosecution were acting solely to "save face," and they were to then acquit the accused in appeal, this would appear to confirm the accusation against them of acting against her only to protect their honor. They can't let this happen, so to truly save face they would need to confirm the conviction and not allow it to be overturned - in order to save face against the accusation of only acting to save face.

Sorry for the circular logic, but it would seem another angle from which the PR campaign is doing AK a profound disservice in trying to manipulate the outcome of the trial. And of course, if one examines the facts carefully, this is clearly not why the convictions were pursued or confirmed, I am just following the logic of "What if?".


Actually, I can't tell you how much this whole thing pisses me off. They were convicted of murder, fabricating a crime scene, the illegal transportation of a knife and last but not least, criminal slander that in part ruined an innocent person's life. The prosecution asked for life (with 9 months solitary for Amanda) and inder Italian law they were entitled to ask for life. The court did not apply that sentence. They could have then applied the next most severe sentence...30 years. They didn't apply that, instead they handed out 26 and 25 years respectively without any solitary. Amanda could be out of jail in as little as 10 - 12 years with day release and outside work even before that. And as jails go in the World, Italian jails are pretty damned cushy. The court showed them both unprecedented mercy (unprecedented to what we'd see in our systems in the UK or US) and compassion. Instead of being grateful for that, what has been the response of the supporters of Amanda? To increase even louder their lies and assault on the prosecutor, the experts, the judges and even the whole of Italy. It's a disgrace. Someone needs to tell these people so they understand, that there are other people in this Universe and it was not created exclusively for them. I struggle to understand where this innate concept of privilege and entitlement these people have comes from, why they feel they need to parade it in front of the World on a regular basis and why they think we should all give a damn!



Michael, as far as I can tell it's simply that their brains are utterly binary. It is guilty or not guilty. Two options which in fact is in reality one option in their mind(s). They want nothing apart from not guilty and the logic stops at that. If it's not 'not guilty' then nothing about sentencing, a compassionate regime, anything like, well none of that matters to them. That's why you get no recognition.

_________________
What it is is spin lent credence because it's from the mouth of a lawyer. We've seen how much gravitas they can carry merely by saying something is or is not so when often they are speaking as much rubbish as anyone else.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline The Bard


User avatar


Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:46 pm

Posts: 2486

Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Michael wrote:
equinox wrote:
Were it true, the highly publicized accusation against the Italian judicial system and the prosecutor in particular, that they have accused and convicted AK to "save face" would surely backfire in the appeal. If all involved in the prosecution were acting solely to "save face," and they were to then acquit the accused in appeal, this would appear to confirm the accusation against them of acting against her only to protect their honor. They can't let this happen, so to truly save face they would need to confirm the conviction and not allow it to be overturned - in order to save face against the accusation of only acting to save face.

Sorry for the circular logic, but it would seem another angle from which the PR campaign is doing AK a profound disservice in trying to manipulate the outcome of the trial. And of course, if one examines the facts carefully, this is clearly not why the convictions were pursued or confirmed, I am just following the logic of "What if?".


Actually, I can't tell you how much this whole thing pisses me off. They were convicted of murder, fabricating a crime scene, the illegal transportation of a knife and last but not least, criminal slander that in part ruined an innocent person's life. The prosecution asked for life (with 9 months solitary for Amanda) and inder Italian law they were entitled to ask for life. The court did not apply that sentence. They could have then applied the next most severe sentence...30 years. They didn't apply that, instead they handed out 26 and 25 years respectively without any solitary. Amanda could be out of jail in as little as 10 - 12 years with day release and outside work even before that. And as jails go in the World, Italian jails are pretty damned cushy. The court showed them both unprecedented mercy (unprecedented to what we'd see in our systems in the UK or US) and compassion. Instead of being grateful for that, what has been the response of the supporters of Amanda? To increase even louder their lies and assault on the prosecutor, the experts, the judges and even the whole of Italy. It's a disgrace. Someone needs to tell these people so they understand, that there are other people in this Universe and it was not created exclusively for them. I struggle to understand where this innate concept of privilege and entitlement these people have comes from, why they feel they need to parade it in front of the World on a regular basis and why they think we should all give a damn!



Love the animator!

Re: cushy jails, are the conditions like this only for women? Will Raff be in the same kind of set up, or is it not so liberal. Somehow I can't see Rudy and Raffaelle taking part in singing, sewing and acting classes. Sounds a very expensive system to run to me.

_________________
Top Profile 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

SomeAlibi wrote:
Michael, as far as I can tell it's simply that their brains are utterly binary. It is guilty or not guilty. Two options which in fact is in reality one option in their mind(s). They want nothing apart from not guilty and the logic stops at that. If it's not 'not guilty' then nothing about sentencing, a compassionate regime, anything like, well none of that matters to them. That's why you get no recognition.


Yes, it is seeing things in black and white on their part. But that blinkered sight is driven by an affliction that effects all of those suffering from entitlement syndrome - the need to have their cake and eat it, all of it, with cream on top and to get patted on the back for it while doing so.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Lancelotti


Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:09 pm

Posts: 378

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Michael wrote:
Of course there was talk of a staged break-in before the evidence came in...the Postal Police said it was clear it was one the moment they walked into Filomena's room. As for the multiple attackers that came from Meredith's autopsy and Amanda's own statement on the night of the 5th!


Yes, Amanda was most helpful in creating that 'theory'.
I can't find any talk of a staged break-in and multiple attackers before then.
Top Profile 

Offline SomeAlibi


User avatar


Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:23 pm

Posts: 1932

Highscores: 7

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

The Bard wrote:
Michael wrote:
equinox wrote:
Were it true, the highly publicized accusation against the Italian judicial system and the prosecutor in particular, that they have accused and convicted AK to "save face" would surely backfire in the appeal. If all involved in the prosecution were acting solely to "save face," and they were to then acquit the accused in appeal, this would appear to confirm the accusation against them of acting against her only to protect their honor. They can't let this happen, so to truly save face they would need to confirm the conviction and not allow it to be overturned - in order to save face against the accusation of only acting to save face.

Sorry for the circular logic, but it would seem another angle from which the PR campaign is doing AK a profound disservice in trying to manipulate the outcome of the trial. And of course, if one examines the facts carefully, this is clearly not why the convictions were pursued or confirmed, I am just following the logic of "What if?".


Actually, I can't tell you how much this whole thing pisses me off. They were convicted of murder, fabricating a crime scene, the illegal transportation of a knife and last but not least, criminal slander that in part ruined an innocent person's life. The prosecution asked for life (with 9 months solitary for Amanda) and inder Italian law they were entitled to ask for life. The court did not apply that sentence. They could have then applied the next most severe sentence...30 years. They didn't apply that, instead they handed out 26 and 25 years respectively without any solitary. Amanda could be out of jail in as little as 10 - 12 years with day release and outside work even before that. And as jails go in the World, Italian jails are pretty damned cushy. The court showed them both unprecedented mercy (unprecedented to what we'd see in our systems in the UK or US) and compassion. Instead of being grateful for that, what has been the response of the supporters of Amanda? To increase even louder their lies and assault on the prosecutor, the experts, the judges and even the whole of Italy. It's a disgrace. Someone needs to tell these people so they understand, that there are other people in this Universe and it was not created exclusively for them. I struggle to understand where this innate concept of privilege and entitlement these people have comes from, why they feel they need to parade it in front of the World on a regular basis and why they think we should all give a damn!



Love the animator!

Re: cushy jails, are the conditions like this only for women? Will Raff be in the same kind of set up, or is it not so liberal. Somehow I can't see Rudy and Raffaelle taking part in singing, sewing and acting classes. Sounds a very expensive system to run to me.


The Italian environment sounds pretty considerate to me. I've been inside nearly every major jail in London and the south of england from Cat A to Cat C. I mean inside, not just the visitor room. I can tell you, many of them would make most normal people ill with the atmosphere in the higher security / serious offender environments which we call Cat A or Cat B. I do find the usual comments about how "easy" jail is rather distasteful to be honest - it's an objective correctional and educational environment which is *hard*. Any of the commentators who said those comments would crumble in a real jail in a matter of days - these are bad places - trust me. Having said that, I think the three are doing quite well by international standards - in the UK they wouldn't receive such considerate treatment and opportunities to be honest.

_________________
What it is is spin lent credence because it's from the mouth of a lawyer. We've seen how much gravitas they can carry merely by saying something is or is not so when often they are speaking as much rubbish as anyone else.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Lancelotti wrote:
Michael wrote:
Of course there was talk of a staged break-in before the evidence came in...the Postal Police said it was clear it was one the moment they walked into Filomena's room. As for the multiple attackers that came from Meredith's autopsy and Amanda's own statement on the night of the 5th!


Yes, Amanda was most helpful in creating that 'theory'.
I can't find any talk of a staged break-in and multiple attackers before then.


You didn't listen to the testimony of the Postal Police and Dr Lalli then?

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Lancelotti


Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:09 pm

Posts: 378

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Michael wrote:
Lancelotti wrote:
Michael wrote:
Of course there was talk of a staged break-in before the evidence came in...the Postal Police said it was clear it was one the moment they walked into Filomena's room. As for the multiple attackers that came from Meredith's autopsy and Amanda's own statement on the night of the 5th!


Yes, Amanda was most helpful in creating that 'theory'.
I can't find any talk of a staged break-in and multiple attackers before then.


You didn't listen to the testimony of the Postal Police and Dr Lalli then?


yes, I did! You have to look at the date!
Top Profile 

Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Michael wrote:
Lancelotti wrote:
Michael wrote:
Of course there was talk of a staged break-in before the evidence came in...the Postal Police said it was clear it was one the moment they walked into Filomena's room. As for the multiple attackers that came from Meredith's autopsy and Amanda's own statement on the night of the 5th!


Yes, Amanda was most helpful in creating that 'theory'.
I can't find any talk of a staged break-in and multiple attackers before then.


You didn't listen to the testimony of the Postal Police and Dr Lalli then?


Unless you were privy to the thoughts of the investigators and their private conversations, it would be hard to find any talk of what they were thinking and saying to one another. It is odd that you mention Amanda Knox as the source of the multiple attacker theory, since the FOA accuses the police of planting this idea in her head and practically forcing her to finger Patrick Lumumba.

As for the staged break-in, many here have pointed out and pointed out again that the police, who are trained professionals, realized that the break-in looked suspicious. I would have noticed it, for goodness sake. I am not sure they would have shared that information with anyone but the investigators. And I am not sure they would have shared it with the press. If they had, you would be accusing them of leaking information.

Maybe I am missing your point. Are you saying that it was the police and investigators who came up with these ideas about the murder -- i.e., that the break-in was staged to divert attention away from the killers, and that there were multiple attackers? I have always been of the belief that this is their job in such cases: to figure out what happened and act accordingly, adjusting their hypotheses as they gain more relevant information.

How many criminal investigations have you been a part of, Lancelotti?

_________________
Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point; on le sait en mille choses.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:07 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Lancelotti wrote:
yes, I did! You have to look at the date!


What do you mean 'look at the date'? The Postal Police entered Filomena's room on the 2nd. Meredith's autopsy was on the 3rd - 4th, Amanda's statement along with Raffaele's was on the 5th. What's wrong with those dates?

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:31 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Michael wrote:
Lancelotti wrote:
yes, I did! You have to look at the date!


What do you mean 'look at the date'? The Postal Police entered Filomena's room on the 2nd. Meredith's autopsy was on the 3rd - 4th, Amanda's statement along with Raffaele's was on the 5th. What's wrong with those dates?


I suspect there is some anxiety tonight, with Rudy's appeal set to reconvene tomorrow.

_________________
Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point; on le sait en mille choses.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:36 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Michael wrote:
Lancelotti wrote:
yes, I did! You have to look at the date!


What do you mean 'look at the date'? The Postal Police entered Filomena's room on the 2nd. Meredith's autopsy was on the 3rd - 4th, Amanda's statement along with Raffaele's was on the 5th. What's wrong with those dates?


I suspect there is some anxiety tonight, with Rudy's appeal set to reconvene tomorrow.


I think so too ;)

I also suspect a certain blog headed 'Taking Aim at Rudy Guede' may reopen tomorrow as well.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Emerald


User avatar


Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:53 am

Posts: 1706

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:08 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
I suspect there is some anxiety tonight, with Rudy's appeal set to reconvene tomorrow.


Reconvene? Is it the final report or will there be more evidence presented?
Top Profile 

Offline The Bard


User avatar


Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:46 pm

Posts: 2486

Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:08 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Michael wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Michael wrote:
Lancelotti wrote:
yes, I did! You have to look at the date!


What do you mean 'look at the date'? The Postal Police entered Filomena's room on the 2nd. Meredith's autopsy was on the 3rd - 4th, Amanda's statement along with Raffaele's was on the 5th. What's wrong with those dates?


I suspect there is some anxiety tonight, with Rudy's appeal set to reconvene tomorrow.


I think so too ;)

I also suspect a certain blog headed 'Taking Aim at Rudy Guede' may reopen tomorrow as well.


Wow. Just went to look at Candace's blog mentioned above. Maaaaan, she is dim isn't she? She and Turtle Dim make a right pair. Poor Yummi! She just called him a 'Rudy apologist'. I love the Turtle Dim post:

'Thank you for your Explosive and Timely article. Another masterful piece of journalism, wonderful piece, thank you Candace.

Classic! Love the creative use of capitals to add impact. I do hope this blog is not resurrected. The tone is very unpleasant. Hopefully Candace will be too busy with her Christmas cooking to do so.

_________________
Top Profile 

Offline tigerfish


Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:54 am

Posts: 235

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:25 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Piktor wrote:

The Kercher family has been exemplary in their restraint and quiet dignity.
We should all learn from the uncommon grace shown by the Kercher family.


The whole family amazes me - their outward grace seems to come from a place of truth - not faked like it would be in my case in such a situation.

I seem to remember seeing comments regarding Meredith's lost potential. And indeed it has been lost - but I don't see her life as being wasted in any sense. She seems to have touched a lot of lives and left a positive legacy.
Which brings me to another thought - I read on TJMK that there are plans for a Meredith Kercher Scholarship Fund - which seems like a wonderful idea considering how focused she was on her education. I want to put some money where my mouth is - does anyone know if it has been set up? And if so, how to donate?
For what it's worth, I feel it should benefit female students who wish to study abroad in a similar field to Meredith's interests. I feel applicants should have some knowledge of this case gleaned from John Kercher's planned book on his daughter - both for their own protection and to project Meredith's values into the future.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline max


Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:55 am

Posts: 1564

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:06 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Emerald wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
I suspect there is some anxiety tonight, with Rudy's appeal set to reconvene tomorrow.

Reconvene? Is it the final report or will there be more evidence presented?

No new evidence. Ruling probably on Tuesday. It is really difficult to find something about it but here is an Italian article.

http://www.libero-news.it/pills/view/28397
Top Profile 

Offline equinox


User avatar


Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:22 pm

Posts: 140

Location: WA, USA

Highscores: 7

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:24 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Michael wrote:
equinox wrote:
Were it true, the highly publicized accusation against the Italian judicial system and the prosecutor in particular, that they have accused and convicted AK to "save face" would surely backfire in the appeal. If all involved in the prosecution were acting solely to "save face," and they were to then acquit the accused in appeal, this would appear to confirm the accusation against them of acting against her only to protect their honor. They can't let this happen, so to truly save face they would need to confirm the conviction and not allow it to be overturned - in order to save face against the accusation of only acting to save face.

Sorry for the circular logic, but it would seem another angle from which the PR campaign is doing AK a profound disservice in trying to manipulate the outcome of the trial. And of course, if one examines the facts carefully, this is clearly not why the convictions were pursued or confirmed, I am just following the logic of "What if?".


Actually, I can't tell you how much this whole thing pisses me off. They were convicted of murder, fabricating a crime scene, the illegal transportation of a knife and last but not least, criminal slander that in part ruined an innocent person's life. The prosecution asked for life (with 9 months solitary for Amanda) and under Italian law they were entitled to ask for life. The court did not apply that sentence. They could have then applied the next most severe sentence...30 years. They didn't apply that, instead they handed out 26 and 25 years respectively without any solitary. Amanda could be out of jail in as little as 10 - 12 years with day release and outside work even before that. And as jails go in the World, Italian jails are pretty damned cushy. The court showed them both unprecedented mercy (unprecedented to what we'd see in our systems in the UK or US) and compassion. Instead of being grateful for that, what has been the response of the supporters of Amanda? To increase even louder their lies and assault on the prosecutor, the experts, the judges and even the whole of Italy. It's a disgrace. Someone needs to tell these people so they understand, that there are other people in this Universe and it was not created exclusively for them. I struggle to understand where this innate concept of privilege and entitlement these people have comes from, why they feel they need to parade it in front of the World on a regular basis and why they think we should all give a damn!



For what it's worth, it was the blatant bigotry evident in the PR campaign which first brought my attention to this case. This is at least some proof that the campaign is a failure. Those of us who are sensitive to racial and cultural bias and hatred, (of which, in America there are many I am happy to say), could likely see immediately that there must be an nefarious agenda behind publicizing accusations such as these. It caused me to seek out information on which to form an informed viewpoint. Finding the FOA website first, and having it immediately and stridently repeat the same claims.. did not have their desired effect on me. I immediately, before even finishing reading their "proofs" of innocence, sought the alternative viewpoint.

That FOA must now spend the next three months with only the reports of benevolence and opportunity being offered to AK as their triggers to gain press attention, the latest being the kindness of the Assisi locals who gifted her, is faintly amusing. This week the best they could do is frame this kindness as "donations" - which they imply as an act of condescension instead of true generosity of spirit. This is their best effort for keeping her in the news - it's a lame one.

And although Bilko is packing his bags in anticipation of Mr. Trump's diving into the fray with his financial might to power the effort, I'm making a prediction that much like Cantwell, his contribution will be limited to his unresearched and poorly written blog post. The PR has failed and miserably by drawing the wrong kind of attention.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:25 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Broken window glass ON TOP OF the strewn clothes Lancelotti.

Explain that.
Top Profile 

Offline Emerald


User avatar


Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:53 am

Posts: 1706

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:39 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

max wrote:
No new evidence. Ruling probably on Tuesday. It is really difficult to find something about it but here is an Italian article.

http://www.libero-news.it/pills/view/28397


Thanks Max. Even though I don't understand the Italian Justice methods, yet, I have every faith in it.
Top Profile 

Offline Yummi


User avatar


Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:29 pm

Posts: 975

Location: Bunga-Bunga Republic

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:40 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Quote:
for the full context, look here


I won't look. I already know all real figures. What I would like to see is a non hypocrite use of things. It is your burden to argue your points. You have to decide if the context fits the case.
Now, please specify full data or do a research for full data. Tell us your interpretation of those data: their relation with the case is, is that you are lead to think there are many chances to reverse the result in appeal?
And, do you think there is a relation between this possibility and the data, or do you think they have been quoted out of context?


Quote:
what about the independent experts the defence team had asked for to review the DNA evidence? will they be allowed in or not?


The experts in the Italian trial are not independent, and they are not allowed, they are appointed by the judges, usually not on request of the defenses. The expert are appointed only if the judges deem there is a (legally) compelling reason.
About DNA evidence, I think there is not going to be any judge-appointed expert in this case, because it would be useless, the defense's experts have been and will be exhaustive in submitting their position, thus there will be no legal ground for a third expert report.
Top Profile 

Offline Fiona


User avatar


Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:54 am

Posts: 1080

Highscores: 7

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:58 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Equinox you are not alone: it was the xenophobia which drew my attention and also that of some others at JREF.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Emerald


User avatar


Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:53 am

Posts: 1706

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:01 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Yummi, I don't understand.

Didn't the Defense have the option of calling their own expert witnesses?
Top Profile 

Offline Yummi


User avatar


Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:29 pm

Posts: 975

Location: Bunga-Bunga Republic

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:10 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Quote:
Yummi, I don't understand.

Didn't the Defense have the option of calling their own expert witnesses?


Yes, of course they were. Sorry maybe I didn't explain fully so maybe I wasn't clear. I was only talking about the experts that many call 'independent', to point out that in fact even those are not independent, they are in fact judge-appointed expert witnesses.
So far the defense called their own experts and those witnesses submitted a huge amount of material to the court. Some of those exper witnesses were even called twice. The defence could bring all the expert reports they wanted. That's why the judges didn't order any other report. The defense attorney were very convinced about their own studies, why then should they request a third report? That's obviously not consistent with their position, almost a provocation.
Top Profile 

Offline Emerald


User avatar


Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:53 am

Posts: 1706

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:48 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Yummi wrote:
Yes, of course they were. Sorry maybe I didn't explain fully so maybe I wasn't clear. I was only talking about the experts that many call 'independent', to point out that in fact even those are not independent, they are in fact judge-appointed expert witnesses.
So far the defense called their own experts and those witnesses submitted a huge amount of material to the court. Some of those exper witnesses were even called twice. The defence could bring all the expert reports they wanted. That's why the judges didn't order any other report. The defense attorney were very convinced about their own studies, why then should they request a third report? That's obviously not consistent with their position, almost a provocation.


JMO

The Defense asking for the 'independent' report was grandstanding. Doing it at the very end so it would be remembered. Make it seem as though the Judges were not allowing exonerating testimony.

In every post-trial interview, Edda made sure she said that the Judge would not allow evidence to help Amanda.
Top Profile 

Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:52 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Yummi wrote:
Quote:
for the full context, look here


I won't look. I already know all real figures. What I would like to see is a non hypocrite use of things. It is your burden to argue your points. You have to decide if the context fits the case.
Now, please specify full data or do a research for full data. Tell us your interpretation of those data: their relation with the case is, is that you are lead to think there are many chances to reverse the result in appeal?
And, do you think there is a relation between this possibility and the data, or do you think they have been quoted out of context?


Quote:
what about the independent experts the defence team had asked for to review the DNA evidence? will they be allowed in or not?


The experts in the Italian trial are not independent, and they are not allowed, they are appointed by the judges, usually not on request of the defenses. The expert are appointed only if the judges deem there is a (legally) compelling reason.
About DNA evidence, I think there is not going to be any judge-appointed expert in this case, because it would be useless, the defense's experts have been and will be exhaustive in submitting their position, thus there will be no legal ground for a third expert report.


In other words, stop trying to be "clever" (because you really aren't) and just be a good faith poster (which you really aren't). It is very tiresome to have to straighten out the misunderstandings generated for no good reason.

_________________
Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point; on le sait en mille choses.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:53 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Brian S. wrote:
Broken window glass ON TOP OF the strewn clothes Lancelotti.

Explain that.


I know that answer: strange polka dots on a photo.*

*Don't ask. You just have to believe it. Like UFOs.

_________________
Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point; on le sait en mille choses.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline sam spade


User avatar


Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:16 pm

Posts: 59

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:02 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Michael wrote:
equinox wrote:
Were it true, the highly publicized accusation against the Italian judicial system and the prosecutor in particular, that they have accused and convicted AK to "save face" would surely backfire in the appeal. If all involved in the prosecution were acting solely to "save face," and they were to then acquit the accused in appeal, this would appear to confirm the accusation against them of acting against her only to protect their honor. They can't let this happen, so to truly save face they would need to confirm the conviction and not allow it to be overturned - in order to save face against the accusation of only acting to save face.

Sorry for the circular logic, but it would seem another angle from which the PR campaign is doing AK a profound disservice in trying to manipulate the outcome of the trial. And of course, if one examines the facts carefully, this is clearly not why the convictions were pursued or confirmed, I am just following the logic of "What if?".


Actually, I can't tell you how much this whole thing pisses me off. They were convicted of murder, fabricating a crime scene, the illegal transportation of a knife and last but not least, criminal slander that in part ruined an innocent person's life. The prosecution asked for life (with 9 months solitary for Amanda) and under Italian law they were entitled to ask for life. The court did not apply that sentence. They could have then applied the next most severe sentence...30 years. They didn't apply that, instead they handed out 26 and 25 years respectively without any solitary. Amanda could be out of jail in as little as 10 - 12 years with day release and outside work even before that. And as jails go in the World, Italian jails are pretty damned cushy. The court showed them both unprecedented mercy (unprecedented to what we'd see in our systems in the UK or US) and compassion. Instead of being grateful for that, what has been the response of the supporters of Amanda? To increase even louder their lies and assault on the prosecutor, the experts, the judges and even the whole of Italy. It's a disgrace. Someone needs to tell these people so they understand, that there are other people in this Universe and it was not created exclusively for them. I struggle to understand where this innate concept of privilege and entitlement these people have comes from, why they feel they need to parade it in front of the World on a regular basis and why they think we should all give a damn!


tt-) Gad, that's funny, Michael! I love your "give a damn" thing! (and I agree!!!)
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline sam spade


User avatar


Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:16 pm

Posts: 59

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:14 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

tigerfish wrote:
Piktor wrote:

The Kercher family has been exemplary in their restraint and quiet dignity.
We should all learn from the uncommon grace shown by the Kercher family.


The whole family amazes me - their outward grace seems to come from a place of truth - not faked like it would be in my case in such a situation.

I seem to remember seeing comments regarding Meredith's lost potential. And indeed it has been lost - but I don't see her life as being wasted in any sense. She seems to have touched a lot of lives and left a positive legacy.
Which brings me to another thought - I read on TJMK that there are plans for a Meredith Kercher Scholarship Fund - which seems like a wonderful idea considering how focused she was on her education. I want to put some money where my mouth is - does anyone know if it has been set up? And if so, how to donate?
For what it's worth, I feel it should benefit female students who wish to study abroad in a similar field to Meredith's interests. I feel applicants should have some knowledge of this case gleaned from John Kercher's planned book on his daughter - both for their own protection and to project Meredith's values into the future.


I agree, wonderful direction for some of our energy. It's painful to keep hurting for Meredith and her family. A positive direction , a scholarship or somesuch is good!! Thanks! pp-(
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline lector


Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:25 am

Posts: 97

Location: swamps of Jersey

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:44 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

equinox wrote:
For what it's worth, it was the blatant bigotry evident in the PR campaign which first brought my attention to this case. This is at least some proof that the campaign is a failure. Those of us who are sensitive to racial and cultural bias and hatred, (of which, in America there are many I am happy to say), could likely see immediately that there must be an nefarious agenda behind publicizing accusations such as these. It caused me to seek out information on which to form an informed viewpoint. Finding the FOA website first, and having it immediately and stridently repeat the same claims.. did not have their desired effect on me. I immediately, before even finishing reading their "proofs" of innocence, sought the alternative viewpoint.

Same process I followed, though I first came across the pro-FOA line on a blog a day after the verdict. I don't watch TV news, for the most part, & that was honestly the first I'd heard of the case. I actually fell for it at first, but the ensuing discussion on the blog made me question what I was seeing. That led me straight to the JREF site, then to TJMK & eventually here.

There are useful discussions in many places around the Net.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline hikergirl99


Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:27 am

Posts: 127

Location: Canada

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:03 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Do any of the legal experts on this board know the answer to this question?

How can convicted murderers get early release (i.e. 10 - 15 years instead of 26) if they are still in denial and do not express remorse? Isn't the expression of truth and remorse part of the rehabilitation that allows for the privilege of early release?

Also, Mutley, your long blurb about choice, and true parental love where parents stand by their kids and encourage them to be accountable, etc. - I agreed with every word you wrote.
Top Profile 

Offline lamaha


Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:08 am

Posts: 36

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:21 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Mutley wrote:

And just how far will you go to protect that child fom the consequences of their own actions? Lie for them? Leave an innocent man in prison? Villify a murder victim by making public innuendo about her sex life and add to the grief and pain of her family? Does the fact that it is your own child justify launching a campaign of lies and half truths and slanders to try and force her release? Is the concept of justice to become 'Justice for ALL but only as long as MY child doesn't have to pay a price because it is MY child'?
How far will you go? See TWO murderers walk away as if nothing had happened because one is your own child? That is not love. It is pure selfishness. To love your child is to support it but not excuse it. To nurture it to have compassion for others not a sense of entitlement and disregard for others. Perhaps that is the root of the problem; Sollecito has placed his faith in Papa's money and connections to get him out of trouble whatever he has done. Papa has certainly tried to oblige because ''money makes water flow uphill''. In their world view, blood also. Knox has the same attitude to life and people. Her family share it. Neither family have any regard or respect for anybody else. Others are just collateral damage in the trail of destruction and pain that their sense of supreme entitlement leaves behind. Perhaps if they had been brought up to have some boundaries on their own rights there would still be another family's child alive. Another parents' heart still walking outside their bodies. .
[/quote][/quote]

To the bolded questions: No. I would never do these things. I have two children, aged 19 and 24, and I have always encouraged them to face the truth and if need be make hard decisions in keeping with truth; to be accountable for their actions, especially with my son who in his teens was involved with some pretty risky behaviour. And I know that I, myself, would never, ever behave the way Edda has done. I believe that real love is tough; it says no where no is necessary and does not give in to sentiment.

I still don't agree with the posting of her photos, in tears, in a public forum. Those may indeed be crocodile tears in those instances but I have no doubt that her pain is real, and in some essential way I feel that pain: even though I know it does not excuse her behaviour.

I find her behaviour despicable, most especially her behaviour reharding Patrick L.
Her pain is not despicable. And it was her pain being exposed and mocked, not her behaviour.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Emerald


User avatar


Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:53 am

Posts: 1706

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:47 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Just checking for court reports.

Will be back later.
Top Profile 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:10 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Rudy Guede is escorted to the courthouse for his appeal against the sentence he received in the Meredith Kercher murder trial, in Perugia December 21, 2009.









Rudy Guede gestures beside his lawyer Nicodemo Gentile (L) in the courthouse during his appeal against the sentence he received in the Meredith Kercher murder trial, in Perugia December 21, 2009.


_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline max


Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:55 am

Posts: 1564

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:14 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

http://www.loccidentale.it/articolo/omicidio+kercher.+legale:+%22la+famiglia+chiede+di+riconoscere+la+colpevolezza+di+guede%22.0083573

Google translate is horrible but I think this is clear enough :)

"Addressing the Court of Assizes of Appeal in Perugia, the lawyer (Maresca) said: "there is no room for you to depart from the sentence of the GUP."
Top Profile 

Offline Hammerite


User avatar


Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:46 pm

Posts: 517

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:37 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

lamaha wrote:
Mutley wrote:

And just how far will you go to protect that child fom the consequences of their own actions? Lie for them? Leave an innocent man in prison? Villify a murder victim by making public innuendo about her sex life and add to the grief and pain of her family? Does the fact that it is your own child justify launching a campaign of lies and half truths and slanders to try and force her release? Is the concept of justice to become 'Justice for ALL but only as long as MY child doesn't have to pay a price because it is MY child'?
How far will you go? See TWO murderers walk away as if nothing had happened because one is your own child? That is not love. It is pure selfishness. To love your child is to support it but not excuse it. To nurture it to have compassion for others not a sense of entitlement and disregard for others. Perhaps that is the root of the problem; Sollecito has placed his faith in Papa's money and connections to get him out of trouble whatever he has done. Papa has certainly tried to oblige because ''money makes water flow uphill''. In their world view, blood also. Knox has the same attitude to life and people. Her family share it. Neither family have any regard or respect for anybody else. Others are just collateral damage in the trail of destruction and pain that their sense of supreme entitlement leaves behind. Perhaps if they had been brought up to have some boundaries on their own rights there would still be another family's child alive. Another parents' heart still walking outside their bodies. .
[/quote]

To the bolded questions: No. I would never do these things. I have two children, aged 19 and 24, and I have always encouraged them to face the truth and if need be make hard decisions in keeping with truth; to be accountable for their actions, especially with my son who in his teens was involved with some pretty risky behaviour. And I know that I, myself, would never, ever behave the way Edda has done. I believe that real love is tough; it says no where no is necessary and does not give in to sentiment.

I still don't agree with the posting of her photos, in tears, in a public forum. Those may indeed be crocodile tears in those instances but I have no doubt that her pain is real, and in some essential way I feel that pain: even though I know it does not excuse her behaviour.

I find her behaviour despicable, most especially her behaviour reharding Patrick L.
Her pain is not despicable. And it was her pain being exposed and mocked, not her behaviour.[/quote]


Hello lamaha,
To be fair I think the pictures were displayed to illustrate the possibility of her ability to turn on the waterworks on demand to maximise their effect on photo opportunities, I believe there never was any intention to take comfort in another’s grief.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:38 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Amanda Knox gets Christmas presents from Italian shopkeepers in jail
21/12/2009

"She has also been sent "hundreds" of letters of support from "Italians apologising for what happened to her", said Ms Mellas."


THE DAILY MIRROR

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Emerald


User avatar


Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:53 am

Posts: 1706

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:43 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

I wish Edda Mellas would shutup. She's embarrassing me as an American.
Top Profile 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:44 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Google Translation:

Meredith, Monday's appeal
Rudy Guede


Back in court on murder case of Meredith Kercher, but this time with Rudy Guede. Monday it will resume in Perugia all'ivoriano the appeal process, already sentenced to 30 years in prison for having shortened the ritual part in the murder along with Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, which on 5 December of the Court of Assizes of Perugia fined 26 and 25 years imprisonment.
For Rudy, the Catalans pg Peter had requested confirmation of the sentence: the judge has in fact spoken in his indictment of his "full competition" in the violence suffered by students English. Monday will tell the lawyer Francesco Maresca and Serena Perna, representing the Kercher's family as a civil party. Then begin the speech dell'ivoriano defenders, lawyers Walter Biscotti and Nicodemo Gentile. The ruling could come on Tuesday.
Defense attorneys will demand a full acquittal of Guede, the young man admitted that he was in fact always present in the house on Via della Pergola when Mez was killed, but deny any responsibility in the crime, "not what it has taken the life and I have not raped, "he told the Court of Assizes of Appeal in the last hearing.
The other two accused in the death of British student Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox, who was granted extenuating circumstances: if they were also recognized all'ivoriano, the penalty could drop below the 20 years in prison. Guede is that Sollecito and Knox, all still prisoners, proclaim all strangers murder of Meredith Kercher.



LIBERO NEWS

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:51 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Meredith and resumed the trial of Rudy Guede
Perugia appeal for Ivorian convicted in first instance to thirty years for the murder of English student. The prosecution has asked for confirmation of the sentence

(video)

SKY TG24

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:04 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Google Translation:

MEREDITH FAMILY LAW, INNOCENCE RECOGNIZE Guede "The family of Meredith Kercher has called for justice and therefore to convict Guede Rudy" lawyer Francesco Maresca, a statutory family of slain British student in Perugia, so he began his harangue in the process Appellate all'ivoriano resumed this morning in Perugia. At first instance the defendant was sentenced to 30 years.


REGIONE VDA

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:12 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Google Translation:

Meredith, Rudy Guede back in the classroom: via the appeal process. Perhaps Tuesday the sentenzall of Meredith Kercher murder case returns to the classroom: it is taken to Perugia the appeal process to the Ivorian Rudy Guede.Per, already 'sentenced to 30 years in prison for the ritual abbreviated part in the murder along with Knox and Sollecito, which the Court of Assizes of Perugia has fined 26 and 25 years of imprisonment, the PG had requested confirmation of the sentence hearing on November 18. The ruling could come already martedì.L 'accusation: "The truth has already been reached" - "The family of Meredith Kercher has called for justice and therefore to convict Rudy Guede," so the lawyer Francesco Maresca, the family of the statutory English student, began his harangue. According to Maresca against Guede "the truth has already been achieved. 'C' is a good decision - he added - issued by an excellent judge (the GUP Paolo Micheli - ndr). A truth of the case coincides with that of history. " Addressing the Court of Assizes of Appeal in Perugia, the lawyer said: "There is no room for you to depart from the sentence of the GUP." Today is also the beginning of the intervention program in the defenders' s Ivorian, who called himself a stranger to crime. The prosecutor in the appeals process has therefore requested confirmation of the sentence 30 of imprisonment imposed on Guede. The accused is present in the courtroom. The ruling could come tomorrow. December 21, 2009


TISCALI

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:48 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

(( OT OT ))

Cat Saved After Being Superglued To Highway
11:36am UK, Monday December 21, 2009

By Lewis Dean, Sky News Online

A cat has escaped with all nine of its lives after being superglued to a highway in the US.

SKY NEWS

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline SomeAlibi


User avatar


Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:23 pm

Posts: 1932

Highscores: 7

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Michael wrote:
(( OT OT ))

Cat Saved After Being Superglued To Highway
11:36am UK, Monday December 21, 2009

By Lewis Dean, Sky News Online

A cat has escaped with all nine of its lives after being superglued to a highway in the US.

SKY NEWS


WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!11111oneoneone

_________________
What it is is spin lent credence because it's from the mouth of a lawyer. We've seen how much gravitas they can carry merely by saying something is or is not so when often they are speaking as much rubbish as anyone else.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Tiziano


Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:06 am

Posts: 714

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 - Guede Appeal   

Guede Appeal

Omicidio di Meredith Kercher, simulato anche lo stupro
Murder of Meredith Kercher, rape also simulated.
Sunday, 20 December, 2009, 17:18

Precis of report on Guede Appeal from Androkonos Agency:
- RHG has 2 days to risk all for his future, 48 hours to dismantle the "concrete castle" of reasons for guilty verdict & 30 years in gaol
- in prison in Viterbo, 23, former basketball player plays last cards Monday & Tuesday in Appeal Court
- court has already refused to reopen case & requests for more expert reports made By Gentile & Biscotto, his lawyers
- riskiest card to play? that of sexual violence
- he says was in bathroom when 2 assassins entered, one of whom was Amanda Knox; his only guilt was in not helping Meredith
- says he was in intimate contact with meredith, but not against her will
- girl's body was found half-clothed although she did not have major bruising
- RHG claims she was dying but fully clothed when he ran away; asks why he would have simulated violence; that would have directed blame against him as he had had contact with her
- thus s'one else turned the house over & undressed MK, according to RHG; proving this, her leegs were not blood-stained, so she was wearing jeans when killed
- hard battle ahead: reasons of 1st stage trial verdict were not in doubt according to judge, prosecutor has asked already for confirmation
- BUT in meantime other things have transpired
- RHG chose fast-track trial in hope of discounted sentence, but in fact received heaviest of sentences: Knox & Sollecito granted some relief on penalty as they were recognised as deserving general mitigating circumstances, given penalty of 26 & 25 years respectively
- although his case is independent of AK/RS trial, he continues to say:"Now there is confirmation that my verdict was unjust"
- RGH lawyers will ask for full acquittal, but he would get just below 20 years even if he were granted mitigating circumstances
- tomorrow (Monday) civil complainants appear; Maresca & Perna (for Kerchers) will open hearing; then it will be turn of RHG's defenders

From Il Messaggero article
Top Profile 

Offline mylady007


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:21 am

Posts: 50

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

bilko wrote:
I can't help but feel a little sympathy for the woman. In her position, I would fight to the death for my off-spring and like many things in life, I don't know how effective I would be.



Moms should support their daughters, no doubt, but not blindly. Parents are to guide and direct and teach right from wrong. If a child comments a crime, the parents should not condon the act. The love should be there, I agree, but supportive love for what is right and good. When you support an unhealthy mind, then you run the risk of veering off track yourself. It's all about truth. Something we've heard very little of.
Top Profile 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Google Translation:

Meredith: Guede LEGAL Kercher ASKED FOR CONFIRMATION ORDER

AGI) - Perugia, December 21 - Confirmation of 30-year sentence imposed at first instance Rudy Guede for the murder of Meredith Kercher and 'sought by the plaintiff's lawyers of the family of a student inglse, lawyers Francesco Maresca and Serena Perna, upon completion of their speech before the Court of Assizes of Appeal of Perugia. The lawyers have also requested confirmation of the financial compensation provided in gup to the family of the victim, estimated at eight million and a half euros. Serena Perna's lawyer pointed out in the classroom as on the body of Mez 43 lesions were found, some products with their hands and others with bladed weapons. For''peaceful''sexual violence spoke, however, the lawyer who says that we Maresca and 'in the presence of''a complex framework that sees the detrimental presence of more' people who produced''serious''injuries' '. Rudy Guede was there'' '- said the lawyer - is not' true that he was in the bathroom. He was there 'and raped Meredith.'' The lawyer will Maresca and 'simulazionee then briefly talked about the theft which defined''peacefully''and''confirmed for this Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito were condonnati''. ''When they come home Guede, the Knox and Sollecito - continued the lawyer - have no intention omicidiaria. We are in front of a rush of intent which is activated in the face of resistance of Meredith Kercher.'' Meredith''- he continued the lawyer - is eliminated because 'to know the three attackers and they would be reported, would have their names, they should explain why' had come up to that point.'' For the lawyer in the murder of English student there 'was an' excursus criminal and violent.''(AGI) Gal



AGI

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Tiziano


Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:06 am

Posts: 714

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -Guede's spontaneous Statement   

Guede's spont statement


RHG claims in statement only guilty of failure to help Meredith: He did not kill her, neither did he violate her. Claims there was a difference of opinion between AK & MK over money. He turned to Kercher lawyers & stated that he wished Meredith's parents to know his only fault was in his failure to assist their daughter as she lay dying
Top Profile 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Google Translation:

Meredith: Guede DEFENSE, RUDY VICTIM media lynching

(AGI) - Perugia, December 21 - Rudy Guede''victim of a media lynching''in a process tainted by a''fortisima pressure from the media.'' So 'one of the lawyers of the young Ivorian, a lawyer Valter Biscotti, opened his speech before the Assize Court of Appeal in Perugia that will have' comment on the sentencing to 30 years imposed at first instance Guede for the murder of English student.
The lawyer called Rudy Biscotti designated the''guilty''the press''and the victim of a lynching by those who have been defined difesori-accusers (the reference 'to the lawyers of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito ndr ) who have done everything, not to support the innocence of their guilt of Guede but defendants''. (AGI) Pg / Sic



AGI

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline bilko


User avatar


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:25 pm

Posts: 198

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

mylady007 wrote:
bilko wrote:
I can't help but feel a little sympathy for the woman. In her position, I would fight to the death for my off-spring and like many things in life, I don't know how effective I would be.



Moms should support their daughters, no doubt, but not blindly. Parents are to guide and direct and teach right from wrong. If a child comments a crime, the parents should not condon the act. The love should be there, I agree, but supportive love for what is right and good. When you support an unhealthy mind, then you run the risk of veering off track yourself. It's all about truth. Something we've heard very little of.


As I said… "Some their tactics are awful, in my opinion," I think that I was trying to say, that we would all have our own ways of dealing with the situation. Hers do not seem to be particularly admirable and seem to be counterproductive.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Catnip


User avatar


Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:08 am

Posts: 2997

Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:45 pm   Post subject: Provisional   

Provisional (pass 1) translation of case timeline from "05/12/09 12:45" article by Amalia Coletta.
I'll be offline (possibly) for a day or two.
In the meantime,
Anyone, feel free to polish/amend if required.
The aim was to get a "newspaper-legal (global English)".




The different stages of the hearings:


16 January 2009: Hearings commence. The Perugia Court of Assizes decides to hold the legal argument in open court but without audio-visual recording [physically] present.

6 February 2009: the first prosecution witnesses testify about the initial phases of the investigation

7 February 2009: Filomena Romanelli, roommate of Kercher and Knox, deposes testimony. “There is something strange,” [in English] Amanda tells her on the morning of 2 November 2007

13 February 2009: Amanda Knox asks to speak: “I am innocent and I have confidence that everything will turn out alright”. Meredith’s English friends testify.


27 February 2009: The Perugia Flying Squad investigators testify. “Objective elements”, like the crime scene, the “contradictions” between the accused begin pointing to Sollecito and Knox


28 February 2009: Amanda and Raffaele’s lawyers accused the police regarding what happened on the night of the arrest at the Perugia questura (police station): “they were heavy-handed with us,” recount the young ones. The officers reply that they “treated them with the utmost courtesy and firmness”

20 March 2009: The investigators go over how on the night of the murder the two accuseds’ phones remained inactive

27 March 2009: Nara Capezzali speaks of a woman’s scream, prolonged and chilling, “to make your skin crawl”, coming from the murder house

28 March 2009: Homeless Antonio Curatolo testifies how he observed Sollecito and Knox on the night of the murder in piazza Grimana

3 April 2009: Forensic pathologist ( medico legale) Luca Lalli testifies and autopsy images are presented in closed court


4 April 2009 and Rudy Guede is in court, availing himself of the right to not respond to questions.

18 April 2009: The Court inspects the murder house.

23 April 2009: The Courts unseals the via della Pergola house from being a crime scene. The then chief of forensics Alberto Intini excludes the possibility of contamination of the murder scene.


8 May 2009: Forensics officers testify: ”61 ‘useful’ prints found in the murder house”

22-23 May 2009: Patrizia Stefanoni steps up to the witness stand. She describes the 460 traces analysed, and argues with the defence, in particular, going into details about the DNA traces


29 May 2009: the prosecution witness depositions conclude, excepting forensic pathologist Luca Lalli who is re-heard on 5 June 2009.

6 June 2009: Meredith’s relatives are in court. “I’m still waiting for her to come home,” says mother Arline.

12-13 June 2009: Amanda is questioned, saying that she was not in the house at the time of the murder

19 June 2009: Raffaele’s father, Francesco Sollecito, testifies, and Amanda Knox’s mother, Edda Mellas


20 June 2009: Of the two expert witnesses for the Sollecito defence says: Mez was killed by only one aggressor with only one knife

9 October 2009: The Court denies the defence submission to appoint another DNA expert.

21 November 2009: The public prosecutors, Giuliano Mignini and Manuela Comodi, ask the Court to impose a life sentence

27 November 2009: The civil parties address the Court. For the Kercher family legal representative, the legal debate was such as to allow the Court to find the two accused guilty. For Patrick Lumumba’s lawyer, “a few words from Amanda destroyed him”


28 and 30 November 2009: Sollecito’s defenders, Giulia Bongiorno and Luca Maori, speak. They affirm that a culprit has already been found and it is ”Guede, vacate the charges against Raffaele”.


1 and 2 December 2009: Knox’s defenders, Carlo Dalla Vedova and Luciano Ghirga, speak: “she was not in the murder room and the charges against her must be vacated”

4 December 2009: The Court retires to chambers to consider the verdict.




[Notiziario] 05 December 2009
Top Profile 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:47 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Thanks for that Catnip, it will be most useful for those wanting to research the case!


EDIT: For easy future reference, it has now been added to the Timelines sub-forum as the: KNOX AND SOLLECITO TRIAL HEARINGS TIMELINE

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline stint7


User avatar


Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:07 pm

Posts: 1582

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:29 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Skep states:
Quote:
There will undoubtedly be a parallel effort in Seattle, possibly organized by well-heeled Catholics and a Jesuit community that would rather keep the faithful focused on anything but its own moral lapses.

^^^^^^^^^^^

Initially, a sincere thanks for all the excellent effort you and the Administrators graciously expend to make this Board such an enjoyable cyber experience.

Reference the above quote, I wonder if you might please share with us the basis for your belief.

Naturally, Amanda's classmates, their parents, and possible her Jesuit Faculty will accept and act on some of the same misguided motives that make Edda's abominable actions acceptable to some.

Additionally, the Jesuit order throughout history has made itself open to crucial, correct criticism and even threatened ouster, due to its affinity for and acclamation of "questionable causes".
Finally, it shares with all Catholics the shame of recent pedophelia phenomenon.

But "organized by well heeled Catholics and Jesuits".... I personally consider to be a..... pretty..... long...................... 'stretch'.

In fact, if I did not feel that through your previous 3,000+ well reasoned posts I "know you better than that", I would have to conclude that the quote above is little more than a pretty bitter, biased, 'cheap shot'.

Just speculating could it be based possibly on some personal less than satisfactory exposure to or experience with the 'well heeled Catholics and Jesuits' sub category of Seattle citizens that you deliberately demean.

Just my slant, definitely intended to be politely proffered, and thanks again for all you do here.
Top Profile 

Offline Jumpy


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:27 pm

Posts: 231

Location: US

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Hi Mutley,

I want to thank you for your post regarding Edda Mellas.

I understand that people like to think about a mother's compassion but Edda Mellas has shown no compassion and instead only lying and arrogance. Every instance where the fraud of the FOA is disclosed I welcome. Edda Mellas has one cause and falling between the cracks is what a real mother should do - protect her other children. Why on earth is she parading her family through the media? She loves the limelight and competes with her daughter. She is caught in what she perceives as her shining moment. An inability to be a proper parent in the past has morphed into an absurd delusion that she is making up for past time. And for the people who defend her? It makes me laugh because she wouldn't give a cold day in hell for them either. The Knox Family, the Mellas family and the Marriott PR are in my opinion, criminals. They are the worst that society has to offer. It goes the same for the family of Raffaele Sollectio.

Amanda Knox, Raffaele Sollectio and Rudy Guede have been convicted of murder. They are murderers and sexual predators. They are the scum of the earth. I could care less about the chocolate presents. Does Scott Peterson receive chocolate? Why is this news?

This trial is a money making business. It is all they have to grasp and has now evolved into what they are.

Meredith Kercher was murdered. She is the victim.
Top Profile 

Offline Fly by Night


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:09 pm

Posts: 1014

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:52 pm   Post subject: FAMILY ANXIOUS AS RUDY GWAYDAY AWAITS DECISION ON APPEAL   

From the Seattle EvenStranger, December 21, 2009:

FAMILY ANXIOUS AS RUDY GWAYDAY AWAITS DECISION ON APPEAL

SEATTLE – “He never had a chance!” These are the strong words from Amanda Fox's family at the beginning of Rudy Gwayday appeal of his conviction for murdering Meredith Kersher. The family is again blasting the Italian courts after they say authorities ignored evidence and instead portrayed Gwayday as some sex crazed killer.

Amanda's Aunt Janet Huffy says the courts stacked the cards against Gwayday and made it nearly impossible for him to prove his innocence. "With the way the media had portrayed him, the things that were leaked from the prosecutor's office, he was guilty before the trial even started," said Huffy.

Huffy has anguished over the murder conviction that will keep Gwayday behind bars in Italy for the next 30 years and hopes he finds freedom in his appeal. She's frustrated over what she calls a tainted Italian jury system.

"No one is screened for any previous bias, after they were brought in they were already giving interviews they're allowed to do that. They were already saying Gwayday was guilty before they heard any of the evidence," said Huffy.

Attorney Anne Beamer says unlike high profile American cases Italian judges and juries are not sequestered, and in Gwayday’s fast-track trial they came to their decision far too quickly.

"In Italy the judges and jurors deliberate from day one, so, a number of them thought Gwayday was guilty before they even heard the evidence," said Beamer.

Fox's parents Edda Melles and Curt Fox talked with reporters today about their next move to free all suspects in the murder of Meredith Kersher.

"We told Gwayday he's gonna get out of there. It's just gonna take a little longer," said Melles.

"He's innocent like our daughter, he's innocent, he will go home. The Italians are so confused." said Fox.

While Fox's parents say they will fight all three convictions, legal expert Anne Beamer still questions the evidence that Italian prosecutors presented that got the “African American” charged with murder in the first place.

"The knife was not the murder weapon because it didn't match one of the wounds, didn't match the imprint of a knife in the bedding and, after all, there wasn't a confession from anyone; no one here is guilty of anything," said Beamer.

Italian prosecutors said Fox's roommate Meredith Kersher was killed during some type of twisted sex game. But, Fox's Aunt Janet Huffy punched gaping holes in that theory.

"First it was a satanic ritual, then it was a sex game gone wrong, and at the end, their final thing was the motive is that there is no motive because it was a random act of violence," said Huffy.

Rudy Gwayday, Amanda Fox, and Raffaele Sollesito were all found guilty and given long prison terms. Fox's Aunt believes no matter how good Gwayday’s defense was a biased Italian court system wouldn't let him win.

"They were calling Gwayday names, a convicted thief and criminal with a violent knife-wielding past, and they were judging his moral character like it was just a smear campaign from the beginning," said Huffy. “Gwayday’s DNA was allegedly found on Meredith's body and his bloody handprint on her pillow but the scene was obviously contaminated by the investigators and the staged break-in clearly shows that the evidence against Gwayday was planted there by someone else, probably by the police themselves.”

Melles said, “The way the system works in Italy is that everyone gets convicted in the first go around and the truth never really comes out until the first or second appeal phase. Because of this, we are confident that the Italians will find all three defendants innocent upon appeal.”
Top Profile 

Offline lamaha


Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:08 am

Posts: 36

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Jumpy wrote:
Hi Mutley, And for the people who defend her? It makes me laugh because she wouldn't give a cold day in hell for them either. .


Just wanted to say that I -- and others too -- did not defend Edda.
And I know she wouldn't give a cold day in hell for me. But that's no reason for me to descend to her level.
I have no sympathy for her or Amanda or any of their family. But I would like to play fair, even if they don't.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Bea


Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 8:18 pm

Posts: 267

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Michael wrote:
Amanda Knox gets Christmas presents from Italian shopkeepers in jail
21/12/2009

"She has also been sent "hundreds" of letters of support from "Italians apologising for what happened to her", said Ms Mellas."


THE DAILY MIRROR


Edda might want to zip it about all the alleged 'thousands' of letters of support, lest she find her daughter 'snowed in' by mail from those who see her for what she really is.

I wouldn't ever write to taunt an convicted murder, but every time I read one of these quotes from Mellas, I am sorely, SORELY tempted to send Amanda an "Enjoy your pasta" card of my own. ta-)) (http://www.metro.co.uk/news/world/80607 ... sta-letter)
Top Profile 

Offline bilko


User avatar


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:25 pm

Posts: 198

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

lamaha wrote:
Jumpy wrote:
Hi Mutley, And for the people who defend her? It makes me laugh because she wouldn't give a cold day in hell for them either. .


Just wanted to say that I -- and others too -- did not defend Edda.
And I know she wouldn't give a cold day in hell for me. But that's no reason for me to descend to her level.
I have no sympathy for her or Amanda or any of their family. But I would like to play fair, even if they don't.


Thank you. That is exactly what I was going to say.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Dec. 21, 2009
Amanda Knox "Really Scared," Mom Says
U.S. Student Trying to "Make the Best of It" in Italian Prison after Murder Conviction but Has "Tough Moments"

CBS NEWS

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline hikergirl99


Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:27 am

Posts: 127

Location: Canada

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Did I just read that right? It must be fake. A Seattle article posted by Fly By Night stating:

"We told Gwayday he's gonna get out of there. It's just gonna take a little longer," said Melles.

"He's innocent like our daughter, he's innocent, he will go home. The Italians are so confused." said Fox (Knox)".

AKs support group including Anne B the lawyer, first jump up and down that RG is the killer and only killer, and now, they are defending him?

This article can't be for real, or if it is, perhaps the people being interviewed were misquoted.

It's one thing to cry DNA contamination and AK couldn't hurt a fly, but completely another thing to switch from "we've got the culprit and his name is RG" to "we are confident that the Italians will find all three defendants innocent upon appeal".

Beyond weird. Perhaps desperate.


Last edited by hikergirl99 on Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Top Profile 

Offline bilko


User avatar


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:25 pm

Posts: 198

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Before anyone challenges me. Yes, I know that I said something about having a certain amount of sympathy, but I think that lahaha sums things up for me.
As for the Seattle EvenStranger post and Janet Huffy's remarks. I was going to say "sounds reasonable to me" but am afraid that my sarcasm would be misunderstood. Please tell me that the EvenStranger post is satyrical. It gave me a good laugh! Particularly the bit about the staged break-in probably by the police. There she was, at one stage, convincing me (joke) that it was just a question of polka dot material, now she is accepting a staged break-in as proof of innocence.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Yes, I think that was an FBN satirical special ;)

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

After a number of articles informing us that Amanda Knox has been showered with Christmas gifts, CBS News have posted a story that Amanda Knox is scared:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/12/ ... 4408.shtml

I wonder if these journalists ever think about Meredith Kercher or her family.
Top Profile 

Offline fine


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:00 am

Posts: 555

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

A PEDANTIC CORRECTION

Skep: "Hobbes said that life in the state of nature was mean, brutish, nasty and short."

Well, not exactly, though that misquotation is so common that it's become CANONICAL. Hobbes' EXACT words were ".... and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short." (Leviathan) In other words, pathetic. No MORAL tone intended. We were no more malicious prior to law than we are today. Today we have fear of the law... but exactly the same instincts and passions. In effect, happier now but no better than our primeval ancestors.

But you're certainly right to use the canonical description in reference to the obknoxious clan. Not just pathetic. Mean.

//////


Last edited by fine on Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Google Translation:

Process Kercher: Rudy Guede to appeal process
PERUGIA - Today in the Court of Assizes of Appeal in Perugia was held the appeal process to Rudy Guede sentenced to 30 years in prison in the first instance because it was considered one of the authors of the murder of British student Meredith Kercher.
Speaking first was the lawyer Francesco Maresca, a lawyer for the Kercher family calendar.
"The family of Meredith Kercher, girl of 20 years of life and enthusiasm come to Perugia to study, calls for justice and calls for recognition of the innocence of Rudy Guede.
Maresca in its appeal requesting the confirmation of the sentence to 30 years imposed at first instance all'ivoriano addition to confirming the financial compensation provided in gup to the family of the victim, estimated at eight million and a half euros.
Rudy Guede was there''- referring Maresca - not 'true that he was in the bathroom. He was there 'and raped Meredith.''
The lawyer then Maresca, spoke of the simulation of the theft he called''peacefully''and''confirmed for this Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito have been convicted.''
''When they come home Guede, the Knox and Sollecito - continued the lawyer - have no intention omicidiaria. We are facing a surge of intent which is activated in the face of resistance of Meredith Kercher.''
Meredith''- has concluded the lawyer - is eliminated because he knows the three attackers and they would be reported, would have their names, they should explain why they had come up to that point.''
Of a completely different view is the lawyer Valter Biscotti who opened his speech before the Court, declaring: "Rudy Guede is the victim of a media lynching''in a process tainted by a''very strong pressure from the media'' .
Rudy's lawyer has described as the''culprit''appointed''by the press and the victim of a lynching by those who have been laid-accusers and the defenders did everything they could, not to support the innocence of the charges laid against them but the guilt of Guede.''
Rudy was present in court, next to his lawyers Valter Biscotti and Nicodemo Gentile.
The ruling could come tomorrow. We recall that a few weeks ago have been sentenced for the murder of Meredith Kercher by the Court of Assizes of Perugia at 25 and 26 years in prison, Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox



NOTIZIARIOITALIANO

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline bilko


User avatar


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:25 pm

Posts: 198

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Michael wrote:
Yes, I think that was an FBN satirical special ;)


Of course. It's easy to get fooled when the FOA sometimes come across as funnier than the kidders. When you get the aunt blowing away the "We were stoned" defence by stating that she was not the kind of girl who takes drugs, making up a staged break-in defence is not so far from the mark! Ha! Ha!
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

A Virtual Tour of Amanda Knox's Crime World
Posted by Charles Mudede on Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 12:22 PM

THE STRANGER


(just in case any of you haven't seen it. Also, people have been writing truly horrible comments at Charles in the comments beneath. He could use some nice ones)

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline SomeAlibi


User avatar


Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:23 pm

Posts: 1932

Highscores: 7

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

fine wrote:
A PEDANTIC CORRECTION

Skep: "Hobbes said that life in the state of nature was mean, brutish, nasty and short."

Well, not exactly, though that misquotation is so common that it's become CANONICAL. Hobbes' EXACT words were ".... and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short." (Leviathan) In other words, pathetic. No MORAL tone intended. We were no more malicious prior to law than we are today. Today we have fear of the law... but exactly the same instincts and passions. In effct, happier now but no better than our primeval ancestors.

But you're certainly right to use the canonical description in reference to the obknoxious clan. Not just pathetic. Mean.

//////


We can have a christmas huddle in pedants' corner ;) I've never heard that misquote. Searching for it "mean brutish nasty and short" turns up 3 results in google. The correct quote turns up >200,000. Doesn't seem terribly canonical to me? But this *is* pedants' corner ;) . Of course mean in the sense of poor rather than mean in the sense of 'you're being mean to me' doesn't convert the misquote into having a moral tone...

Exquisite pedantry :D

_________________
What it is is spin lent credence because it's from the mouth of a lawyer. We've seen how much gravitas they can carry merely by saying something is or is not so when often they are speaking as much rubbish as anyone else.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Rudy Guede (R) leaves the courthouse as he is escorted during a break of his appeal against the sentence he received in the Meredith Kercher murder trial, in Perugia December 21, 2009.



_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

S&S reveals details of Kercher book
15.12.09 Graeme Neill

Simon & Schuster UK has revealed further details of its account of the murder of British student Meredith Kercher.

Darkness Descending: the Murder of Meredith Kercher by Paul Russell and Graham Johnson will be published on January 7th. The acquisition was previously announced in June.

Kerri Sharp, senior commissioning editor at S&S, said: "Our author Paul Russell has lived in Italy for 27 years, speaks fluent Italian, and has attended the trial throughout. He has written the
book in consultation with one of Italy’s top forensics experts, general Luciano Garofano, and the book is co-written by bestselling crime writer, Graham Johnson, author of Powder Wars and The Devil.

"Darkness Descending will be the one book about the case that everyone will want to read."

It is one of a number of titles focusing on Kercher's murder and the subsequent trial. Earlier this month 22-year-old Amanda Knox and her former boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito were found guilty of conspiracy to murder the English student. She was stabbed to death in her apartment in Perugia in November 2007.

John Blake is publishing The Murder of Meredith by Gary King in January, while Hodder commissioned a book earlier this year on the case by Sunday Times reporter John Follain.




THEBOOKSELLER

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Amanda Knox given Christmas presents by shopkeepers
Amanda Knox has been given a large bag of Christmas presents by shopkeepers from a town near her prison, according to her mother.

Published: 10:38AM GMT 20 Dec 2009

THE DAILY TRLEGRAPH

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

SomeAlibi wrote:
fine wrote:
A PEDANTIC CORRECTION

Skep: "Hobbes said that life in the state of nature was mean, brutish, nasty and short."

Well, not exactly, though that misquotation is so common that it's become CANONICAL. Hobbes' EXACT words were ".... and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short." (Leviathan) In other words, pathetic. No MORAL tone intended. We were no more malicious prior to law than we are today. Today we have fear of the law... but exactly the same instincts and passions. In effct, happier now but no better than our primeval ancestors.

But you're certainly right to use the canonical description in reference to the obknoxious clan. Not just pathetic. Mean.

//////


We can have a christmas huddle in pedants' corner ;) I've never heard that misquote. Searching for it "mean brutish nasty and short" turns up 3 results in google. The correct quote turns up >200,000. Doesn't seem terribly canonical to me? But this *is* pedants' corner ;) . Of course mean in the sense of poor rather than mean in the sense of 'you're being mean to me' doesn't convert the misquote into having a moral tone...

Exquisite pedantry :D


Well, if you want to get all pedantic about it, notice that I deliberately did not use quotation marks because I wasn't "quoting" poor Thomas Hobbes. I was merely paraphrasing him. And although I would quibble with you (and perhaps Hobbes) over whether fear of the law is the only thing we have gained, this doesn't seem like the best place for that debate. Pedants' Corner is the more appropriate venue. I hear it is located three doors down from Pascal's Corner in Hell.:)

EDIT TO ADD: I used the term "mean" to "mean" "poor" or "shabby" and not to "mean" "unkind". In other words, as Hobbes intended insofar as we can tell. I did not intend to "mean" what is often meant in US English by "mean", i.e., aggressive or visious, as in "He is so mean to me".

_________________
Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point; on le sait en mille choses.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline piktor


User avatar


Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:30 pm

Posts: 1081

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Latest Guede reports on GoogleItalia news:

http://news.google.com/news?hl=it&ie=UT ... a=N&tab=bn
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Mother on Knox's Prison Life


_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline piktor


User avatar


Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:30 pm

Posts: 1081

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
fear of the law is the only thing we have gained.

You have to wonder if criminals carry criminal law codes and sentencing guidelines in their back pocket and after careful consultation with said tomes then do their dirty deeds in fear of the law and full knowledge of all legal ramifications to their acts.

All crimes are acted upon an impulse. The sorry schmucks keep on crossing the line.

All we have advanced is providing a hairdresser once a week for Capane female prison inmates.


Last edited by piktor on Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:58 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

stint7 wrote:
Skep states:
Quote:
There will undoubtedly be a parallel effort in Seattle, possibly organized by well-heeled Catholics and a Jesuit community that would rather keep the faithful focused on anything but its own moral lapses.

^^^^^^^^^^^

Initially, a sincere thanks for all the excellent effort you and the Administrators graciously expend to make this Board such an enjoyable cyber experience.

Reference the above quote, I wonder if you might please share with us the basis for your belief.

Naturally, Amanda's classmates, their parents, and possible her Jesuit Faculty will accept and act on some of the same misguided motives that make Edda's abominable actions acceptable to some.

Additionally, the Jesuit order throughout history has made itself open to crucial, correct criticism and even threatened ouster, due to its affinity for and acclamation of "questionable causes".
Finally, it shares with all Catholics the shame of recent pedophelia phenomenon.

But "organized by well heeled Catholics and Jesuits".... I personally consider to be a..... pretty..... long...................... 'stretch'.

In fact, if I did not feel that through your previous 3,000+ well reasoned posts I "know you better than that", I would have to conclude that the quote above is little more than a pretty bitter, biased, 'cheap shot'.

Just speculating could it be based possibly on some personal less than satisfactory exposure to or experience with the 'well heeled Catholics and Jesuits' sub category of Seattle citizens that you deliberately demean.

Just my slant, definitely intended to be politely proffered, and thanks again for all you do here.


It is true that Seattle Prep has expanded its student body beyond the traditional Capitol Hill Catholic crowd to include affluent people from all over Seattle. Indeed, one doesn't have to be Catholic any more to get in. You just have to be able to pay the fairly steep tuition. As for its Jesuit tradition, last time I looked there were two men of the cloth on the faculty. So it doesn't really provide a Jesuit education, if that means taught by Jesuits.

As for my own experience with this crowd, I can honestly say I have met religious hypocrites from every denomination, which means that I have also met good and honest folks from every one. I was raised Catholic, if that helps you any, so I do have first-hand experience with Catholic teaching and tradition. Personally, my discomfort with the Catholic Church stems from its opulance, its long tradition of misogyny, its systematic and categorical opposition to birth control (spread throughout the world by its missionaries), its dubious role in WWII with regard to the Jews, its habit of shuffling pedophiles around instead of taking them out of circulation, etc. Sorry to bore y'all with my views on the Catholic Church.

And I am sorry if I offended anyone. It was not my intention, though I can see how my comment could cause offense. It is my opinion, however and, like all opinions it is based on my experience and observations. I believe in religious tolerance and freedom, but am saddened to see how much violence and mayhem in the world is attributable to religious belief and power. Especially religious power. I remember being surprised when one of the nuns told our class that only Catholics would be going to heaven. What about people living in parts of the world that have never been exposed to Catholic teaching, I asked. Too bad for them, I was told, in so many words.

Along with a few other people who post here, I did see the folks who descended the staircase at Salty's for the fundraiser for AK, and I know that Holy Rosary Catholic Church in West Seattle was also a fundraising venue. My grandparents were faithful parishoners there for half a century; my mother and father got married there; the funeral for my uncle (a Seattle Prep graduate) was held there. Like Jumpy, I can't forget that Meredith Kercher is an innocent victim; and I wonder why there have been no prayers for her on the part of the local Catholics, and no fundraisers.

I am a bit suspicious of the motive. And though I have no absolute proof, I suspect that Prep has done its part to confuse the issue. I have a couple of friends with kids at Prep, and their knowledge of this case appears to have been gained solely from the FOA press kit. Their certainty, combined with their ignorance of the facts, is frightening. And yet so familiar to me as a former member of the flock. It is certainly a mistake to generalize from these two cases, and I hope that the rest of the community is a little less gullible and panicked over this incident involving one of its own.

As for whether or not Holy Rosary or Prep has any plans beyond what I have already seen, I have no idea. I hope not. I hope that their support does not extend beyond the traditional prayers for those suffering in the world. But when I read that Italians are showering AK with gifts, it got me thinking about the fundraisers already held in Seattle and whether any more are planned.

End of sermon.

_________________
Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point; on le sait en mille choses.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Tiziano


Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:06 am

Posts: 714

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -Guede   

guede
For the defence Rudy has been "designated" as the guilty one

21/12/09 14.43 hours

PERUGIA

RG is the "the guilty one designated for such a brutal crime" and he has been subjected to "lynching by media" which has also "contaminated the trial".
Thus said Guede's lawyer, Walter Biscotti in his address to the trial at the Appeals Court of the Ivory Coast man, already condemned to 30 years at the fast track trial
for the murder of Meredith Kercher. (RCD)
For the defence Rudy has been "designated" as the guilty one

21/12/09 14.43 hours

PERUGIA

RG is the "the guilty one designated for such a brutal crime" and he has been subjected to "lynching by media" which has also "contaminated the trial".
Thus said Guede's lawyer, Walter Biscotti in his address to the trial at the Appeals Court of the Ivory Coast man, already condemned to 30 years at the fast track trial
for the murder of Meredith Kercher. (RCD)
Top Profile 

Offline piktor


User avatar


Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:30 pm

Posts: 1081

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -Guede   

Tiziano wrote:
For the defence Rudy has been "designated" as the guilty one

21/12/09 14.43 hours

PERUGIA

RG is the "the guilty one designated for such a brutal crime" and he has been subjected to "lynching by media" which has also "contaminated the trial".
Thus said Guede's lawyer, Walter Biscotti in his address to the trial at the Appeals Court of the Ivory Coast man, already condemned to 30 years at the fast track trial
for the murder of Meredith Kercher. (RCD)

The ''guede'' link does not work.

This one does:

http://www.corriere.it/notizie-ultima-o ... 9622.shtml
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Tiziano


Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:06 am

Posts: 714

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -Guede   

piktor wrote:
Tiziano wrote:
For the defence Rudy has been "designated" as the guilty one

21/12/09 14.43 hours

PERUGIA

RG is the "the guilty one designated for such a brutal crime" and he has been subjected to "lynching by media" which has also "contaminated the trial".
Thus said Guede's lawyer, Walter Biscotti in his address to the trial at the Appeals Court of the Ivory Coast man, already condemned to 30 years at the fast track trial
for the murder of Meredith Kercher. (RCD)

The ''guede'' link does not work.

This one does:

http://www.corriere.it/notizie-ultima-o ... 9622.shtml

TYVM PIKTOR!
Top Profile 

Offline Kermit


User avatar


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:37 am

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:15 pm   Post subject: KEEPING UP WITH THE JONES   

Michael wrote:
Mother on Knox's Prison Life




Having vacationed on occasion in Tuscany and Umbria, let me tell you that the Knox-Mellas clan is not very destitute if the stone house behind Edda is the one they've rented and is where they live when they're on their European junkets.

(Maybe I'm wrong, maybe the CBS camera crew was just driving along with Edda and they simply decided to stop and film her in front of an attractive, anonymous stone house.)
Top Profile 

Offline piktor


User avatar


Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:30 pm

Posts: 1081

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -Guede   

Tiziano wrote:
piktor wrote:
Tiziano wrote:
For the defence Rudy has been "designated" as the guilty one

21/12/09 14.43 hours

PERUGIA

RG is the "the guilty one designated for such a brutal crime" and he has been subjected to "lynching by media" which has also "contaminated the trial".
Thus said Guede's lawyer, Walter Biscotti in his address to the trial at the Appeals Court of the Ivory Coast man, already condemned to 30 years at the fast track trial
for the murder of Meredith Kercher. (RCD)

The ''guede'' link does not work.

This one does:

http://www.corriere.it/notizie-ultima-o ... 9622.shtml

TYVM PIKTOR!

YAVW, TIZIANO!
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:22 pm   Post subject: Re: KEEPING UP WITH THE JONES   

Kermit wrote:
Michael wrote:
Mother on Knox's Prison Life




Having vacationed on occasion in Tuscany and Umbria, let me tell you that the Knox-Mellas clan is not very destitute if the stone house behind Edda is the one they've rented and is where they live when they're on their European junkets.

(Maybe I'm wrong, maybe the CBS camera crew was just driving along with Edda and they simply decided to stop and film her in front of an attractive, anonymous stone house.)


Ha! I had exactly the same thought. :)

That would be an attractive, anonymous stone house in Corciano, not too far from Perugia.

_________________
Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point; on le sait en mille choses.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:29 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Meredith family plea: Deny killer´s appeal

Murdered British student Meredith Kercher's family's lawyer has called for an appeal court to confirm the guilt of one of her killers. Drifter Rudy Guede was sentenced to 30 years for his part in the brutal sex murder of Meredith at her apartment in Perugia, Italy, two years ago. But today (monday) her family's lawyer Francesco Maresca told the killer's appeal hearing: "Meredith's family asks for justice - and for the court to confirm Rudy Guede's guilt." "The truth has already been established. There's a fair sentence passed by a fair judge. There is no justice in changing his sentence," he added. Guede was jailed after a fast-track trial and claims he took no part in the killing but admits he did nothing to help Meredith when she was attacked by flatmate Amanda Knox and her then boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito. His lawyers claim his conviction should be overturned and that his sentence is unfair compared with the 26 and 25 years handed down to Knox and Sollecito. The appeal continues.


AUSTRIAN TIMES

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Google Translation:

The appeal trial for Guede - Lawyers' Assolvetelo. He has lied and has killed "

Requested the acquittal of Rudy Guede on charges of murdering Meredith Kercher's lawyer Nicodemo Gentile, one of the defenders dell'ivoriano, in its appeal before the Court of Assizes of Appeal in Perugia. The lawyer, however, his client deserves''extenuating circumstances''.

Gentile said that Guede was''clean record, he's young, has not slandered anyone and did not kill.'' ''It's not a liar - he added - and is the only one that worked, saying among other things he saw Amanda Knox in the house of the crime.'' The lawyer then said that Guede was wondering why no one has asked for him to mitigating circumstances (which would result from a reduction of sentence), which were instead awarded to Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito in the process of First Instance. ''I'm not lucky in this process,''the words dell'ivoriano told by his lawyer.

Another of the defenders of Guede, the lawyer Walter Biscotti, also emphasized that''the young man spoke for 35 hours''during interrogations to which it was submitted. ''He never changed version - he added - as it did the prosecutor. Guede has ever reported seeing the house of a male figure but Meredith did not recognize you. Today, in light of the ruling that there 's been, we can say that that figure was Sollecito.''

Biscuits - whose intervention is still ongoing - has argued that Guede Meredith joined with''home''in the crime. He stressed that the alleged sexual assault''was excluded by the same consultant pm.''





UMBRIALEFT


(I say, that guy at the back has no idea how to shape a beret. He'll take off in a headwind!)

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Shirley


Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:48 pm

Posts: 376

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Michael wrote:
(I say, that guy at the back has no idea how to shape a beret. He'll take off in a headwind!)


Hahahahaha!
Top Profile 

Offline Leodmaeg


User avatar


Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:18 pm

Posts: 30

Location: England

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Michael wrote:

(I say, that guy at the back has no idea how to shape a beret. He'll take off in a headwind!)


Aye. Helicopter landing pads spring to mind. :lol:
Top Profile 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

The Cook is back in the kitchen: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito: The Deal Went Down

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Michael wrote:


Excuse me if I refrain from having a look. Does Candace plug her upcoming book?

_________________
Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point; on le sait en mille choses.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Michael wrote:


Excuse me if I refrain from having a look. Does Candace plug her upcoming book?


Hi Skep,

You won't be surprised to hear that she plugged her book.

I wonder if it will include the factually incorrect statements that she has made her own blog:

1. There is no trace of Amanda Knox or Raffaele Solecito in the murder room.

2. You can't see the gate of the cottage on Via della Pergola from Piazza Grimana.

3. Raffaele Sollecito didn't lie, but there were "small inconsistencies" in his witness statements.


Last edited by The Machine on Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Top Profile 

Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

The Machine wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Michael wrote:


Excuse me if I refrain from having a look. Does Candace plug her upcoming book?


Hi Skep,

You won't be surprised to hear that she plugged her book.



Somehow that seems like a no-brainer. Thanks for saving me the trouble of reading rubbish masquerading as writing.

I have another prediction: little to no mention of the Kerchers. She has had time to rethink (and possibly delete) her earlier comment, made in the heat of the moment, about how she still likes and respects Arline Kercher even though the latter did not take Kelly 13's advice and clamor for the release of two of the three suspects.

_________________
Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point; on le sait en mille choses.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline nicki

Forensics Moderator


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:27 am

Posts: 847

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

The Machine wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Michael wrote:


Excuse me if I refrain from having a look. Does Candace plug her upcoming book?


Hi Skep,

You won't be surprised to hear that she plugged her book.

I wonder if it will include the factually incorrect statements that she has made her own blog:

1. There is no trace of Amanda Knox or Raffaele Solecito in the murder room.

2. You can't see the gate of the cottage on Via della Pergola from Piazza Grimana.

3. Raffaele Sollecito didn't lie, but there were "small inconsistencies" in his witness statements.

I wish she could be a bit more creative though, rather than spinning the old FOA's mantra. Anyway, thanks for letting us know, TM

_________________
"A pensare male si fa peccato, ma molto spesso ci si azzecca" mike
Top Profile 

Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

nicki wrote:
The Machine wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Michael wrote:


Excuse me if I refrain from having a look. Does Candace plug her upcoming book?


Hi Skep,

You won't be surprised to hear that she plugged her book.

I wonder if it will include the factually incorrect statements that she has made her own blog:

1. There is no trace of Amanda Knox or Raffaele Solecito in the murder room.

2. You can't see the gate of the cottage on Via della Pergola from Piazza Grimana.

3. Raffaele Sollecito didn't lie, but there were "small inconsistencies" in his witness statements.

I wish she could be a bit more creative though, rather than spinning the old FOA's mantra. Anyway, thanks for letting us know, TM


That's why you have to wait and buy the book. This is where Candace is pouring all of her creative energies.

_________________
Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point; on le sait en mille choses.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline tom_ch


Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:40 am

Posts: 241

Location: CH

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Michael wrote:


Excuse me if I refrain from having a look. Does Candace plug her upcoming book?

Quote:
My book, Murder In Italy: The Shocking Slaying of a British Girl, Her Accused American Roommate, and an International Scandal, grew out of this blog. It will appear in May 2010. You can see the cover here.


One cannot comment on her post, so clearly this is a marketing scam.

Quote:
I will keep the blog open, post new stories and links. But it will be closed most of the time to comments.


Tom
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

tom_ch wrote:
One cannot comment on her post, so clearly this is a marketing scam.


Oh, you can comment there...it'll just get deleted ;)

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:15 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Michael wrote:
tom_ch wrote:
One cannot comment on her post, so clearly this is a marketing scam.


Oh, you can comment there...it'll just get deleted ;)



I actually just checked. I didn't read the article, but I noticed it says at the bottom that comments are closed for this entry.

_________________
Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point; on le sait en mille choses.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline DLW


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:41 pm

Posts: 623

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Reuters with a pretty good wrap up of today’s proceeding.

Reuters
Top Profile 

Offline nicki

Forensics Moderator


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:27 am

Posts: 847

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:


That's why you have to wait and buy the book. This is where Candace is pouring all of her creative energies.

My book, Murder In Italy: The Shocking Slaying of a British Girl, Her Accused American Roommate, and an International Scandal, grew out of this blog. It will appear in May 2010. You can see the cover here.


If the cook's book has "grown out" of her blog I don't see how it could possibly contain any new and "creative" insights. Besides the fact that I doubt Ms Dempsey's book will ever make to the Italian market, I don't think I'm interested to read a digest of the usual and trite anti-Italian crap that the cook has been trumpeting on her food blog during the last two years.No Thanks.

_________________
"A pensare male si fa peccato, ma molto spesso ci si azzecca" mike
Top Profile 

Offline piktor


User avatar


Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:30 pm

Posts: 1081

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Reuters google translation:

http://translate.google.com/translate?j ... l=it&tl=en
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline jodyodyo


User avatar


Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:02 am

Posts: 257

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Michael wrote:
Google Translation:

The appeal trial for Guede - Lawyers' Assolvetelo. He has lied and has killed "

Requested the acquittal of Rudy Guede on charges of murdering Meredith Kercher's lawyer Nicodemo Gentile, one of the defenders dell'ivoriano, in its appeal before the Court of Assizes of Appeal in Perugia. The lawyer, however, his client deserves''extenuating circumstances''.

Gentile said that Guede was''clean record, he's young, has not slandered anyone and did not kill.'' ''It's not a liar - he added - and is the only one that worked, saying among other things he saw Amanda Knox in the house of the crime.'' The lawyer then said that Guede was wondering why no one has asked for him to mitigating circumstances (which would result from a reduction of sentence), which were instead awarded to Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito in the process of First Instance. ''I'm not lucky in this process,''the words dell'ivoriano told by his lawyer.

Another of the defenders of Guede, the lawyer Walter Biscotti, also emphasized that''the young man spoke for 35 hours''during interrogations to which it was submitted. ''He never changed version - he added - as it did the prosecutor. Guede has ever reported seeing the house of a male figure but Meredith did not recognize you. Today, in light of the ruling that there 's been, we can say that that figure was Sollecito.''

Biscuits - whose intervention is still ongoing - has argued that Guede Meredith joined with''home''in the crime. He stressed that the alleged sexual assault''was excluded by the same consultant pm.''





UMBRIALEFT


(I say, that guy at the back has no idea how to shape a beret. He'll take off in a headwind!)


Hi Michael, I see the photo of Rudy has his hands blurred/obscured. Is he being brought in wearing handcuffs? Interesting difference in treatment between Rudy and his co-convicted.

Will the "love birds" be wearing the latest accessory when brought in for their appeal?
Top Profile 

Offline Fly by Night


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:09 pm

Posts: 1014

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:02 pm   Post subject: No Reviews, Please!   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Michael wrote:
tom_ch wrote:
One cannot comment on her post, so clearly this is a marketing scam.


Oh, you can comment there...it'll just get deleted ;)



I actually just checked. I didn't read the article, but I noticed it says at the bottom that comments are closed for this entry.


However, the Cook will have absolutely no control over the "comments" and "reviews" sections for the unlucky online distributors of her masterpiece (i.e. Amazon) - I will be waiting to observe and participate in the bar-b-que.
Top Profile 

Offline anne


User avatar


Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:04 pm

Posts: 173

Location: Berlin Kreuzberg

Highscores: 3

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:25 pm   Post subject: Re: FAMILY ANXIOUS AS RUDY GWAYDAY AWAITS DECISION ON APPEAL   

Fly by Night wrote:
From the Seattle EvenStranger, December 21, 2009:

FAMILY ANXIOUS AS RUDY GWAYDAY AWAITS DECISION ON APPEAL

SEATTLE – “He never had a chance!” These are the strong words from Amanda Fox's family at the beginning of Rudy Gwayday appeal of his conviction for murdering Meredith Kersher. The family is again blasting the Italian courts after they say authorities ignored evidence and instead portrayed Gwayday as some sex crazed killer.

Amanda's Aunt Janet Huffy says the courts stacked the cards against Gwayday and made it nearly impossible for him to prove his innocence. "With the way the media had portrayed him, the things that were leaked from the prosecutor's office, he was guilty before the trial even started," said Huffy.

Huffy has anguished over the murder conviction that will keep Gwayday behind bars in Italy for the next 30 years and hopes he finds freedom in his appeal. She's frustrated over what she calls a tainted Italian jury system.

"No one is screened for any previous bias, after they were brought in they were already giving interviews they're allowed to do that. They were already saying Gwayday was guilty before they heard any of the evidence," said Huffy.

Attorney Anne Beamer says unlike high profile American cases Italian judges and juries are not sequestered, and in Gwayday’s fast-track trial they came to their decision far too quickly.

"In Italy the judges and jurors deliberate from day one, so, a number of them thought Gwayday was guilty before they even heard the evidence," said Beamer.

Fox's parents Edda Melles and Curt Fox talked with reporters today about their next move to free all suspects in the murder of Meredith Kersher.

"We told Gwayday he's gonna get out of there. It's just gonna take a little longer," said Melles.

"He's innocent like our daughter, he's innocent, he will go home. The Italians are so confused." said Fox.

While Fox's parents say they will fight all three convictions, legal expert Anne Beamer still questions the evidence that Italian prosecutors presented that got the “African American” charged with murder in the first place.

"The knife was not the murder weapon because it didn't match one of the wounds, didn't match the imprint of a knife in the bedding and, after all, there wasn't a confession from anyone; no one here is guilty of anything," said Beamer.

Italian prosecutors said Fox's roommate Meredith Kersher was killed during some type of twisted sex game. But, Fox's Aunt Janet Huffy punched gaping holes in that theory.

"First it was a satanic ritual, then it was a sex game gone wrong, and at the end, their final thing was the motive is that there is no motive because it was a random act of violence," said Huffy.

Rudy Gwayday, Amanda Fox, and Raffaele Sollesito were all found guilty and given long prison terms. Fox's Aunt believes no matter how good Gwayday’s defense was a biased Italian court system wouldn't let him win.

"They were calling Gwayday names, a convicted thief and criminal with a violent knife-wielding past, and they were judging his moral character like it was just a smear campaign from the beginning," said Huffy. “Gwayday’s DNA was allegedly found on Meredith's body and his bloody handprint on her pillow but the scene was obviously contaminated by the investigators and the staged break-in clearly shows that the evidence against Gwayday was planted there by someone else, probably by the police themselves.”

Melles said, “The way the system works in Italy is that everyone gets convicted in the first go around and the truth never really comes out until the first or second appeal phase. Because of this, we are confident that the Italians will find all three defendants innocent upon appeal.”


Oh is it a new plot? GREAT! There are so many new names in it :mrgreen:
Top Profile 

Offline Yummi


User avatar


Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:29 pm

Posts: 975

Location: Bunga-Bunga Republic

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:06 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Candace's wrote in her ast post:

" The only reporter who was there every day was Frank Sfarzo of Perugia Shock and he didn't write about Amanda's clothes and facial expressions. "

When you read you think....
Andrea Vogt disappeared?
And Barbie Nadeau?
and Corriere/Reoubblica/ Giornale dell'Umbria reporters lik Meo Ponte and M. Sarzanini?
Top Profile 

Offline The 411


User avatar


Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:49 pm

Posts: 1386

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:49 am   Post subject: "...Not Found Guilty in Italy..."   

Michael wrote:
Mother on Knox's Prison Life





News Flash! Stop the presses! Amanda Knox, contrary
to what any of us might have read or heard, has NOT REALLY
been found guilty!

Edda, mother of "Ms. H.O.T." (i.e., Helen of Troy)
informs us in this video that you're "not found guilty in Italy" until
you've passed through the three judicial levels and, so far,
they've only had "one ruling against us."

Kinda like being "a little bit pregnant"
Amanda is just. . . "a little bit found guilty?" huh-)
Top Profile 

Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:01 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Yummi wrote:
Candace's wrote in her ast post:

" The only reporter who was there every day was Frank Sfarzo of Perugia Shock and he didn't write about Amanda's clothes and facial expressions. "

When you read you think....
Andrea Vogt disappeared?
And Barbie Nadeau?
and Corriere/Reoubblica/ Giornale dell'Umbria reporters lik Meo Ponte and M. Sarzanini?


The best part of all is that Frank "Sfarzo" is not really a reporter (neither is Candace for that matter). He vaguely claimed to have been one in a past life, under another name (perhaps another pseudonym even), reporting on theater, cycling and true crime. Candace also claimed to have been a crime beat reporter for the Spokesman Review, though recently I see she admits her only connection with the Spokesman Review was as a student intern. I suppose Candace is trying to insinuate something out of nothing, in her typically unprofessional manner. I imagine that both of the American reporters you mention could have missed a day or two, due to any number of reasons. As for the Italian reporters, they too may have missed a day or two as well. Frank Sfarzo the pseudo-reporter who wants to be a millionnaire may also have missed a day or arrived halfway through the day's hearing or left early or even fallen asleep.

I bet you a hundred bucks that Candace's source for this is Frank himself - since she was surely not there daily - so take her claim with a huge grain of salt. Also, and more importantly, I hope Frank's only distinguishing characteristic is not that he showed up every day; but I fear this in fact is his only claim to fame.

Anyway, it speaks to Candace's lack of professionalism that she has taken to sliming real reporters in this pathetic way. I didn't notice any of them caught multiple times on camera, following the Kerchers with a camera.

_________________
Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point; on le sait en mille choses.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Yummi


User avatar


Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:29 pm

Posts: 975

Location: Bunga-Bunga Republic

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:10 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

The original reading of the sentence by Judge Massei.
I noticed this original is still missing from the board. This reading in Italian is called the dispositivo, the "decision", which is the part of the ruling that is read in court. The following is my verbatim from Massei's reading:
(sorry, at the moment only in Italian)



In nome del Popolo Italiano

Nel processo a carico di Amanda Marie Knox e Raffaele Sollecito,

visti gli articoli 533 e 535 codice di procedura penale, questa corte dichiara gli imputati Knox Amanda Marie e Raffaele Sollecito colpevoli dei reati loro ascritti sulla lettera A, in detto reato assorbito il delitto contestato alla lettera C, nonché sulle lettere D, B limitatamente ai telefoni cellulari, ed E, e per quanto riguarda Amanda Knox anche del reato ascrittole sulla lettera F, reati tutti unificati sotto il vincolo della continuazione e, escluse le aggravanti di cui agli articoli 577 e 71 numero 5 codice penale, ad entrambi concesse le circostanze attenuanti generiche, equivalenti alla residua aggravante, li condanna alla pena di anni 26 di reclusione la Knox e alla pena di anni 25 il Sollecito, pena base per la continuazione anni 24 di reclusione, nonché ciascuno al pagamento delle spese processuali e di custodia in carcere.

Visti gli articoli 29 e 32 Codice Penale dichiara Knox Amanda Marie e Sollecito Raffaele interdetti in perpetuo dai pubblici uffici e in stato di interdizione legale per tutta la durata della pena.

Visti gli articoli 538 e seguenti condanna Knox Amanda Marie e Sollecito Raffaele al risarcimento in solido tra loro nei confronti delle costituite parti civili John Kercher, Arline Carlol Larah Kercher, Bill Kercher, John Ashley Kercher, e Stephanie Asleen Larah Kercher, danni da liquidarsi in separata sede civile, concede una provvisionale immediatamente esecutiva di euro un milione ciascuno in favore di John Kercher e Arlina Carlol Larah Kercher, e di Euro 500.000 ciascuno a Kercher, Bill Kercher, John Ashley Kercher, e Stephanie Asleen Larah Kercher, oltre al rimborso forfettario iva e cpa come per legge,

condanna Knox Amanda Marie al risarcimento dei danni nei confronti della parte civile costituita Patrick Diya Lumumba, da liquidarsi in separata sede, e concede una provvisionale immediatamente esecutiva di euro diecimila. Condanna Knox Amanda Marie alle spese di costituzione e difesa in favore di Patrick Diya Lumumba, che liquida in complessivi euro quarantamila oltre al rimborso forfettario iva e cpa come per legge,

condanna Knox Amanda Marie e Sollecito Raffaele al risarcimento in solido tra loro nei confronti della parte civile costituita Annalia Tartanelli da liquidarsi in separata sede, concede alla stessa una provvisionale immediatamente esecutiva di euro diecimila, e al pagamento in solido delle spese di costituzione e difesa nei confronti della parte civile costituita Annalia Tartanelli che liquida in complessivi euro 23.000 oltre al rimborso forfettario iva e cpa come per legge.

Visto l’articolo 240 dispone la confisca dei corpi di reato.

Visto l’articolo 530 codice di procedura penale assolve gli imputati dalla residua imputazione di cui al capo B perché il fatto non sussiste.

Dispone in giorni 90 il termine ultimo per il deposito della motivazione della presente sentenza.

L’udienza è tolta.


Last edited by Yummi on Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top Profile 

Offline The 411


User avatar


Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:49 pm

Posts: 1386

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:22 am   Post subject: Showing up   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:


I bet you a hundred bucks that Candace's source for this is Frank himself - since she was surely not there daily - so take her claim with a huge grain of salt. Also, and more importantly, I hope Frank's only distinguishing characteristic is not that he showed up every day; but I fear this in fact is his only claim to fame.



Hi, Skep:
You know, Sfarzo might be a Woody Allen fan.
It was Allen who once said:
"Eighty percent of success is showing up."
Top Profile 

Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:24 am   Post subject: Re: Showing up   

The 411 wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:


I bet you a hundred bucks that Candace's source for this is Frank himself - since she was surely not there daily - so take her claim with a huge grain of salt. Also, and more importantly, I hope Frank's only distinguishing characteristic is not that he showed up every day; but I fear this in fact is his only claim to fame.



Hi, Skep:
You know, Sfarzo might be a Woody Allen fan.
It was Allen who once said:
"Eighty percent of success is showing up."


I think Frank aspires to having fans, not so much to being one. It could be interpreted as a sign of weakness.:)

_________________
Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point; on le sait en mille choses.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Emerald


User avatar


Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:53 am

Posts: 1706

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:24 am   Post subject: Re: "...Not Found Guilty in Italy..."   

The 411 wrote:
News Flash! Stop the presses! Amanda Knox, contrary
to what any of us might have read or heard, has NOT REALLY
been found guilty!

Edda, mother of "Ms. H.O.T." (i.e., Helen of Troy)
informs us in this video that you're "not found guilty in Italy" until
you've passed through the three judicial levels and, so far,
they've only had "one ruling against us."

Kinda like being "a little bit pregnant"
Amanda is just. . . "a little bit found guilty?" huh-)



Yeah, I thought the same thing. 'Michael' wrote an article a while back about such ridiculous statements. I think it's at TJFM.

As a Mother, I can understand Edda's angst. But, there comes a point where you have to deal with the true nature of your child. Doesn't mean you stop loving and caring deeply for your child. Edda blubbers about this being the 3rd Christmas Amanda has spent away from the Family. How many Christmases has Edda spent away from the Family worshiping at the "Amanda is innocent" altar? How much of the future welfare of the other children has been blown on the adulation of la_) ?

Amanda allowed EVERY Christmas to be removed from Meredith and her loving Family. There will never be the option of having the warm, cheery hug from Meredith Kercher.

I have a question....... As long as the appeal process is open, is the investigation ongoing as well? Is it possible the phones of Edda Mellas is still tapped? Is the case against Curt/Edda still open for investigation?
Top Profile 

Offline sbman


Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:12 pm

Posts: 15

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:31 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Michael wrote:
equinox wrote:
Were it true, the highly publicized accusation against the Italian judicial system and the prosecutor in particular, that they have accused and convicted AK to "save face" would surely backfire in the appeal. If all involved in the prosecution were acting solely to "save face," and they were to then acquit the accused in appeal, this would appear to confirm the accusation against them of acting against her only to protect their honor. They can't let this happen, so to truly save face they would need to confirm the conviction and not allow it to be overturned - in order to save face against the accusation of only acting to save face.

Sorry for the circular logic, but it would seem another angle from which the PR campaign is doing AK a profound disservice in trying to manipulate the outcome of the trial. And of course, if one examines the facts carefully, this is clearly not why the convictions were pursued or confirmed, I am just following the logic of "What if?".


Actually, I can't tell you how much this whole thing pisses me off. They were convicted of murder, fabricating a crime scene, the illegal transportation of a knife and last but not least, criminal slander that in part ruined an innocent person's life. The prosecution asked for life (with 9 months solitary for Amanda) and under Italian law they were entitled to ask for life. The court did not apply that sentence. They could have then applied the next most severe sentence...30 years. They didn't apply that, instead they handed out 26 and 25 years respectively without any solitary. Amanda could be out of jail in as little as 10 - 12 years with day release and outside work even before that...



How does the flight risk play into the possibility of parole or day release? What's to stop AK jumping on the next plane or crossing the EU border? Good luck getting her back from the xenophobic US.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Hammerite


User avatar


Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:46 pm

Posts: 517

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:42 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

A general question for anyone who has come across this please; I understand that AK’s bedside lamp was located in MK’s room on the morning of the gruesome discovery.

Q: Were any fingerprints or DNA of AK found on it? Hard to imagine realistically how there could not be in view of the manner that this item is operated by its owner. It is just that CK and EM have continuously asserted that there was not “one scintilla” of AK in MK’s room. I would have thought that the total absence of AK trace on the lamp is harder to explain than if there was actually some on it.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Emerald


User avatar


Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:53 am

Posts: 1706

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:10 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Hammerite wrote:
A general question for anyone who has come across this please; I understand that AK’s bedside lamp was located in MK’s room on the morning of the gruesome discovery.

Q: Were any fingerprints or DNA of AK found on it? Hard to imagine realistically how there could not be in view of the manner that this item is operated by its owner. It is just that CK and EM have continuously asserted that there was not “one scintilla” of AK in MK’s room. I would have thought that the total absence of AK trace on the lamp is harder to explain than if there was actually some on it.



As Amanda's lamp, it would have Amanda's DNA all over it. Edda, Curt and Aunt Janet continuing the "not on e scintilla of Amanda's DNA in the room" makes them liars.

The lamp was plugged into the socket outside the room in the hallway, wasn't it? The person who plugged it into the hallway socket would have left a strong amount of DNA, both top and sides of the actual plug. Possibly on the socket wall plate too. Even if it was mixed with that of Amanda, it would have been possible to note there was foreign DNA there.

Whoever took that lamp from Amanda's room was careful not to disturb anything else in there. Rules OUT burglary. Rules IN staging of burglary, IMO.
Top Profile 

Offline piktor


User avatar


Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:30 pm

Posts: 1081

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:35 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Emerald wrote:
The lamp was plugged into the socket outside the room in the hallway, wasn't it? The person who plugged it into the hallway socket would have left a strong amount of DNA, both top and sides of the actual plug. Possibly on the socket wall plate too. Even if it was mixed with that of Amanda, it would have been possible to note there was foreign DNA there.

That is a whopper of an obstacle to overcome.

So, does anyone know if the lamps and plugs are 'clean'?

Wait, there were NO Knox PRINTS IN THE FLAT. Just one fingerprint on a glass at the kitchen.

Is this true?
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Shirley


Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:48 pm

Posts: 376

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:14 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Yummi wrote:
Candace's wrote in her ast post:

" The only reporter who was there every day was Frank Sfarzo of Perugia Shock and he didn't write about Amanda's clothes and facial expressions. "

When you read you think....
Andrea Vogt disappeared?
And Barbie Nadeau?
and Corriere/Reoubblica/ Giornale dell'Umbria reporters lik Meo Ponte and M. Sarzanini?


That "of" is peculiar too: makes it sound as if Perugia Shock is a news station or newspaper with loads of reporters and Sfarzo just happened to be assigned the beat. :roll:
Top Profile 

Offline grushka


Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 3:08 pm

Posts: 30

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:27 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

A recent US murder case; note the sentence lengths. Also, as vile as this crime was, at the very least one of the guilty confessed and apologized for it.

Quote:
Friends sentenced in NH Walmart worker slaying

Associated Press Writer
NORTH HAVERHILL, N.H. – Denounced as "evil" and "despicable," three young friends who plotted the killing of a developmentally disabled Walmart cashier who had been hitting on a co-worker drew long prison terms Monday.

Timothy Smith, Anthony Howe and Amber Talbot, who pleaded guilty to murder and conspiracy in the October 2008 death of 25-year-old Christopher Gray, sat at adjoining tables in court as the victim's family members tearfully remembered him and berated his killers.

"Just remember that night," said David Kemp, 33, Gray's brother. "I hope it eats you and eats you and eats you until can't take it (any) longer."
Smith and Howe each got 40 years to life and Talbot 25 to 50 years for taking the Groton, Vt., man to a mobile home under the pretext of watching movies. There, Smith, 24, and Howe, 19, who are cousins, stabbed and strangled him as they stood around a campfire.


The confession:

Quote:
Smith, who had confessed to the killing in a handwritten letter to Gray's family after the slaying, apologized again Monday.
"I see Chris every time I try to sleep. No matter how many times I say I'm sorry, I can't bring him back. But I wish I could. That night, I should've told Chris what we planned on doing, and not to come," Smith said.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_nh_murder ... Rzc2VudA--
Top Profile 

Offline tigerfish


Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:54 am

Posts: 235

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:41 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Also a story in today's Daily Mail about a guy who stabbed a woman to death because he woke up in a bad mood.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -mood.html

This story invalidates all the FOA bleating about a killer requiring a motive. This guy doesn't sound like he had any worse a previous history than AK. I doubt the bleating will stop anytime soon though.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline pataz1


Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:02 am

Posts: 303

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:46 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

[quote="jodyodyo]
Hi Michael, I see the photo of Rudy has his hands blurred/obscured. Is he being brought in wearing handcuffs? Interesting difference in treatment between Rudy and his co-convicted.

Will the "love birds" be wearing the latest accessory when brought in for their appeal?[/quote]

actually, i literally just came across some very early photos for Sollecito where they did the same

http://www.corriere.it/gallery/Cronache ... erugia/7&1
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline martin


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:28 pm

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:19 am   Post subject: Re: Showing up   

The 411 wrote:
Hi, Skep:
You know, Sfarzo might be a Woody Allen fan.
It was Allen who once said:
"Eighty percent of success is showing up."


Hi 411,
your avatar: troia means hooker in Italian
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline martin


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:28 pm

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:30 am   Post subject: Re: "...Not Found Guilty in Italy..."   

The 411 wrote:
Michael wrote:
Mother on Knox's Prison Life





News Flash! Stop the presses! Amanda Knox, contrary
to what any of us might have read or heard, has NOT REALLY
been found guilty!

Edda, mother of "Ms. H.O.T." (i.e., Helen of Troy)
informs us in this video that you're "not found guilty in Italy" until
you've passed through the three judicial levels and, so far,
they've only had "one ruling against us."

Kinda like being "a little bit pregnant"
Amanda is just. . . "a little bit found guilty?" huh-)


Hello again 411,
does she believe being a modern version of Helen of Troy? Did I miss something?
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:00 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Quote:
The Bard quoted:
"Was this the face that launched a thousand ships,


And burnt the topless towers of Ilium?
"


"These were too old to fight, but they were fluent orators, and sat on the tower like cicales that chirrup delicately from the boughs of some high tree in a wood. When they saw Helen coming towards the tower, they said softly to one another, "Small wonder that Trojans and Achaeans should endure so much and so long, for the sake of a woman so marvellously and divinely lovely. Still, fair though she be, let them take her and go, or she will breed sorrow for us and for our children after us." (Iliad, Book III, transl. by Samuel Butler)
Top Profile 

Offline nicki

Forensics Moderator


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:27 am

Posts: 847

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:08 am   Post subject: Re: Showing up   

martin wrote:
The 411 wrote:
Hi, Skep:
You know, Sfarzo might be a Woody Allen fan.
It was Allen who once said:
"Eighty percent of success is showing up."


Hi 411,
your avatar: troia means hooker in Italian


No Martin. Troia, or Troy in English is a)the name of an ancient city in Turkey who was at war with the Greek city-states for 10 years etc etc.b) a popular term to indicate the sow, c) a very rude and vulgar epithet to depict a very bitchy woman or a slut.

As you see, "troia" doesn't quite mean hooker in Italian.

_________________
"A pensare male si fa peccato, ma molto spesso ci si azzecca" mike
Top Profile 

Offline bucketoftea


User avatar


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:09 pm

Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:46 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

A little bit of news from the Drew Peterson case(s) that might be instructive for Candace and Frank:Derek Armstrong, a Canadian writer/con man who "collaborated" with Drew Peterson and his attorney to write the book "Drew Peterson Exposed" is finding out that journalistic privileges don't apply if you just SAY you're a journalist. After touting his "hundreds of hours" of taped interviews for sale with no takers, prosecutors are pursuing him for them. He claims privilege, but it appears to not apply to blogs, only to bona fide journalists with a job. :)
Top Profile 

Offline bucketoftea


User avatar


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:09 pm

Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:53 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Poor fella....even after he went to the trouble of fabricating his own "news" site with which to cite his journalists' "credentials".
Top Profile 

Offline Emerald


User avatar


Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:53 am

Posts: 1706

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:59 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-86508891.html

Quote:
[Vanessa] Leggett, 34, became the longest-jailed journalist in U.S. history because she wouldn't surrender her tapes and notes to federal authorities for the investigation of a "high society" Houston murder.


She had never published anything. The Judge did not consider her a journalist.


Last edited by Emerald on Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top Profile 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:00 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Rudy Guede watches during his appeal against the sentence he received in the Meredith Kercher murder trial, in Perugia December 22, 2009.


_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:03 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Google Translation:

]Meredith: now the sentence for Guede
Perugia - E 'taken up with the reply of the Attorney General Pietro Catalani the trial before the Assize Court of Appeal in Perugia for Rudy Guede sentenced at first instance rite shortened to 30 years imprisonment for the murder of Meredith Kercher.

The Prosecutor has asked for the confirmation of the Ivorian ruling by the gup Paolo Micheli. Replicas are now being represented by the civil party lawyers Francesco Maresca and Serena Perna for the family of the victim. After the replicas of the defense (lawyers Valter Biscotti and Nicodemo Gentile), the Court will retire 'in closed session. The sentence 'waiting in the day. Guede and 'present today.



IL PAESE NUOVO

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Emerald


User avatar


Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:53 am

Posts: 1706

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:05 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Good morning Michael. You know I have questions to ask.

Is the case still pending against Curt and Edda?

Since Amanda's case is pending appeal, are the same investigation techniques still available to LE? For instance, could they still be recording phone conversations of AK's Family?
Top Profile 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:07 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Google Translation:

22/12/2009
MEREDITH: And 'THE DAY OF JUDGMENT OF APPEALS FOR RUDY Guede


(AGI) - Perugia, Dec. 22 - After the first verdict against Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito (sentenced respectively to 26 and 25 years), the spotlight is now on Rudy Guede. For the Ivory Coast, already 'sentenced to 30 years in first grade, with abbreviated rite for the murder of British student Meredith Kercher, the Court of Assizes of Appeal in Perugia, chaired by John Borsini, will broadcast' the sentence today . In the morning, after any replicas of the Attorney General, the party claiming damages and defenses, the Court will retire 'in closed session to leave, presumably in the late afternoon or evening with the decision.

The attorney general has asked for reconfirmation of the sentence at first instance, a proposition that finds agreement among a victim's family, represented by lawyer Francesco Maresca and Serena Perna; the opposite opinion of the young lawyers, Walter Biscotti and Nicodemo Gentile, asking for absolution , however, noting that Rudy deserves extenuating circumstances, however, granted to the other two defendants.

Although the national and international media pressure is significantly lower than reported previously, the local press devoted considerable space to another. On the front page of Corriere Umbria reads:''For Rudy and 'the day of judgment - Defenders: e' a victim of a media lynching''and on page 3:''That's why 'Rudy must be done - l' passionate speech of the 2 criminal lawyers.'' The Journal of Umbria, on the front page shows:''The defense has no doubts: Establish Rudy''and on page 9:''Rudy, the last attack of the lawyers - a victim of the media's doom and people without courage.'' In The Nation on its front page:''Establish Guede did not kill Mez - Today the verdict a''and on page 14:''Guede's Last Chance - a victim of a lynching, he did not kill Mez.'' For The Messenger - edition Umbria - the front page, Italo Carmignani and Vanna Ugolini, returned to the theme of the accusations against the accused and the consequent counter-defense by titrating the article (which continues inside on page 37):'' Defenders dell'ivoriano attacking the attorney general. And retort: there was no sexual violence - Another murderess and 'Raphael.''

pg / cam / ss

(Reuters)



ASCA

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:09 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Emerald wrote:
Good morning Michael. You know I have questions to ask.

Is the case still pending against Curt and Edda?

Since Amanda's case is pending appeal, are the same investigation techniques still available to LE? For instance, could they still be recording phone conversations of AK's Family?


Hi Emerald. Yes, that case is still pending. Just as is the case against the family of Raffaele, one of their lawyers and the individuals at the Telenorba TV station.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline bucketoftea


User avatar


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:09 pm

Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:12 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Telenorba? Are they the ones that showed crime scene footage?
Top Profile 

Offline mortytoad


User avatar


Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:38 pm

Posts: 335

Location: Seattle, Washington

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:13 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

[quote="Michael"]Google Translation:

"the national and international media pressure is significantly lower than reported previously"
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I don't understand why this is. It would seem that Guede's appeals should be just as important news in this case than any news about Amanda and Raffaele's "plights". I've been anxiously awaiting any new news on this weeks procceedings, so thanks Michael for the updates (and apologies for still not figuring out how the quote function works). I beleive that the sooner that these appeals are over, the Kercher family will fully be able to move on. That's my hope for them, anyway.


Last edited by mortytoad on Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:14 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Google Translation:

Caso Meredith /

In the afternoon the ruling of the Court of Appeals called to confirm or carry Rudy Guede
This afternoon the Court of Appeals of Perugia confirm or absolve Rudy Guede, the Ivorian boy accused of murder in the competition for the death of Meredith Kercher. And 'the ongoing replication of the Attorney General Pietro Catalani point after point is confirming that the pattern of the verdict issued by the Gup Paolo Micheli. Rudi Guede, assisted by the lawyers Nocodemo Gentile and Walter Biscotti, is present in the classroom. After replication of the PG will be the turn of the plaintiffs and defense



UMBRIALEFT

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:15 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

bucketoftea wrote:
Telenorba? Are they the ones that showed crime scene footage?



Hi Bucket, that's right. A couple of individuals at telenorba are being prosecuted by the Kerchers.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline juliet


Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:08 pm

Posts: 15

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:17 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

ttrroonniicc wrote:
DeathFish 2000 wrote:
Guede did express what could be regarded as a form of remorse in his diary when he mentioned his guilt at not being able to save Merediths life when he was 'helping' her with towels while she was bleeding to death.
There was no phone to call for help he said, so he left her to die and then went to a disco.

(sorry)


Nobody answered my question recently as to whether people think he fought RS. The Koblenz police photographed what looked like knife defensive wounds on his hand.


Hi Ttrroonniicc. Yes I think RG must have got the defensive wound from RS or AK.

My difficulty in piecing the events together is how to fit together the periods where RG was participating fully as a 3rd member of group (evidenced by Kokomani), and where he was not participating (he was on the toilet, he got defensive wound, he was possibly the one heard by the neighbour arguing with AK?)

Could it have gone like this:

AK and RS leave his appartment, turning their phones off and taking knives with general scaring/hazing plan in mind (whether MK was specific target at this stage not sure). They bump into RG and go to the cottage for smoke and drink. He is not party to original plan, but perhaps they present it to him at some point.

Then either argument kicks off between MK and AK in her room and boys join to support AK, or they 'haze' MK when she has settled to study. Things escalate driven primarily by AK's jealousy and RS's liking for violence, and Guede particpates in some way in sexual violation, egged on by AK. They then lock up MK in cupboard or room and take her phones and leave the cottage.

Kokomani witnesses them outside, AK and RS manic and scary with knives. They are high on adrenalin as well as alcohol and hash probably. RG tries to get use of car for more hazing/kidnapping or other intent? Kokomani hears thuds and RG says it is just from the 'party' - more evidence that something was already started at this point.

They need to return to the flat to finish what they started. RG argues over what to do, heard by neighbour. They let MK out of cupboard and continue the violence. RG feels thing getting uglier and out of control, goes to bathroom has dump. (He perhaps already picks up towels at this point, MK having already been seriously wounded? He returns to find MK has been or being mortally wounded. RG gets defensive wound from RS or AK. They flee, while RG tries to stem blood with towels. He flees too.

Just one possible scenario, trying to fit together what we know. Interested to hear thoughts.

I do, as some others, feel that AK and RS's sentences are light compared to that of RG, especially since he seems to me to have possibly had the lesser parts in instigating the crime, driving it, the extreme violence of it and convering it up.


Last edited by juliet on Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:18 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Google Translation:

Mez, judges in closed session
Appeal Perugia, PG: Guede sentenced
She retired in closed session, the Assize Court of Appeal in Perugia in front of which was held on trial Rudy Guede sentenced to 30 years in prison on the abbreviated rite for the murder of Meredith Kercher. The ruling could come in the afternoon. In replicas of the PG this morning Pietro Catalani asked to "confirm in full" the sentence.



TGCOM

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Emerald


User avatar


Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:53 am

Posts: 1706

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:29 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Michael wrote:
Google Translation:

Caso Meredith /

In the afternoon the ruling of the Court of Appeals called to confirm or carry Rudy Guede
This afternoon the Court of Appeals of Perugia confirm or absolve Rudy Guede, the Ivorian boy accused of murder in the competition for the death of Meredith Kercher. And 'the ongoing replication of the Attorney General Pietro Catalani point after point is confirming that the pattern of the verdict issued by the Gup Paolo Micheli. Rudi Guede, assisted by the lawyers Nocodemo Gentile and Walter Biscotti, is present in the classroom. After replication of the PG will be the turn of the plaintiffs and defense



UMBRIALEFT


If the US media highlighted RG's appeals, it would negate their xenophobic focus. We (Americans) need to be bombarded with the la_) from the good ole USA.

**wink**

I don't do sarcasm as well as some posters here.
Top Profile 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:31 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Google Translation:

Meredith / Initiative chambers: the award in the afternoon

Perugia, December 22 (AFP) - "We call for the acquittal because Rudy Guede is innocent: he did not kill Meredith Kercher, but has tried to deal with the murderers in the house": with these words in defense of Guede is being pursued by Walter Biscotti and Nicodemo Gentile asked absolution for his own assisted in the appeal trial for the murder of Meredith Kercher. After replication of the defenses, met in closed session this afternoon that the Court will issue a decision. The Attorney General has requested confirmation of the sentence.



LA PROVINCIA DI VARESE

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Emerald


User avatar


Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:53 am

Posts: 1706

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:40 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Michael wrote:
Google Translation:

Meredith / Initiative chambers: the award in the afternoon

Perugia, December 22 (AFP) - "We call for the acquittal because Rudy Guede is innocent: he did not kill Meredith Kercher, but has tried to deal with the murderers in the house": with these words in defense of Guede is being pursued by Walter Biscotti and Nicodemo Gentile asked absolution for his own assisted in the appeal trial for the murder of Meredith Kercher. After replication of the defenses, met in closed session this afternoon that the Court will issue a decision. The Attorney General has requested confirmation of the sentence.



LA PROVINCIA DI VARESE


Sounds like they are just trying to have the sentenced reduced. No new evidence submitted.

RG said he picked up a chair to thwart the attacks against him in the home. If there are defensive wounds on RG, wouldn't there be a chair with defensive wounds, too?

How long before the 3rd and last level for RG? Will it be before AK/RG 2nd level?
Top Profile 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:43 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Mother 'waits for day' Kerchers know Knox was innocent


The mother of Amanda Knox has said she "waits for the day" the family of murdered British student Meredith Kercher know her daughter is innocent.

BBC NEWS

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:50 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Google Translation:

Delitto Meredith, the day of truth for GuedeL'ivoriano was sentenced to 30 years in first grade with abbreviated rite.

Lawyers call for acquittal

After the sentence of twenty years to twenty-five Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, is now awaiting the sentence of Appeals for the Ivorian Rudy Guede, already sentenced to 30 years in first grade with abbreviated rite for the murder of Meredith Kercher.

Guede's lawyers ask for absolution of their client: the Ivorian boy, they argue, deserves extenuating circumstances and is the only one to have cooperated. In his speech defense lawyer Valter Biscotti said Guede is only "designated culprit for a crime so heinous," the victim of a "media lynching" that would "contaminate the process." "A media lynching - stressed Biscuits - to which is added to that of the other accusers and defenders did everything not to support the innocence of their clients but the guilt of Guede.

A different opinion counsel for the family of the student found dead in Perugia, the lawyer Francesco Maresca, that "the truth has been reached, since there's a good ruling made by an excellent judge. A truth of the case, which coincides with the historical "he said. Kercher's lawyers have also asked for confirmation of the financial compensation provided by the gup to the family of the victim, estimated at eight million and a half euros. Serena Perna's lawyer pointed out in the classroom as on the body of Mez lesions have been observed, some products with their hands and others with bladed weapons. And for''peaceful''sexual violence spoke Maresca, the lawyer, that it was''in the presence of a complex framework that sees the detrimental presence of several persons who produced''serious''injury.'' Rudy Guede was there''- he said - is not true that he was in the bathroom. Was there 'and raped Meredith.'' The lawyer for Kercher has also addressed directly to the Court of Assizes, "There is no room for you to depart from the sentence of GUP.

The sentence for Amanda and Raffaele
After the verdict issued by the Court of Assizes of Perugia Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito Meredith's family had called "satisfied with the verdict." One of the brothers of the victim had said: "Our sister was murdered so brutally. We are not happy, but satisfied." The ruling has "made a point to this case very complicated."
Reminder after the first night in jail he said: "I seem to live in a hellish nightmare: what to do now?". While Amanda had reiterated its position: "Nobody believes in me and I do not understand why. I have always told the truth, it was not me who killed Meredith."

GRANTED MITIGATING
The Court, led by Giancarlo Massei, decided for a lighter sentence than requested by prosecutors who had asked for life imprisonment for both defendants with a lot of isolation during the day for some months (2 to 9 for Sollecito and Amanda). The Court granted extenuating circumstances to the two convicted and removed the aggravated murder for trivial reasons (hatred towards the victim Amanda). The two met instead for not having committed the theft of $ 300 that Meredith took in the drawer of the room and who prosecutors would have been a source of the dispute before the murder the house on Via della Pergola. Motive of the prosecutors were deleted. E 'stood with the sexual violence included in the crime of murder. Same for which he was sentenced to 30 years, the Ivorian Rudy Guede.
(AGI)



VIRGILIO

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:52 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Emerald wrote:
How long before the 3rd and last level for RG? Will it be before AK/RG 2nd level?


I would imagine that will be within a year Emerald.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline The Bard


User avatar


Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:46 pm

Posts: 2486

Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:58 am   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Michael wrote:
Rudy Guede watches during his appeal against the sentence he received in the Meredith Kercher murder trial, in Perugia December 22, 2009.



Why is Rudy in a CAGE? Amanda and Raffaelle were not put in a cage?

_________________
Top Profile 

Offline The Bard


User avatar


Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:46 pm

Posts: 2486

Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Michael wrote:
Mother 'waits for day' Kerchers know Knox was innocent


The mother of Amanda Knox has said she "waits for the day" the family of murdered British student Meredith Kercher know her daughter is innocent.

BBC NEWS


She just WON'T shut up will she. How sick. Amanda has been CONVICTED by a unanimous jury.

_________________
Top Profile 

Offline Fiona


User avatar


Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:54 am

Posts: 1080

Highscores: 7

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

I presume because he has been convicted while till recently they were only accused ?
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline max


Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:55 am

Posts: 1564

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

juliet wrote:
They need to return to the flat to finish what they started. RG argues over what to do, heard by neighbour. They let MK out of cupboard and continue the violence. RG feels thing getting uglier and out of control, goes to bathroom has dump.

Hi juliet, I am also interested in the witness Antonella Monacchia who heard the argument in Italian. Too bad there is not much information about this witness. It was mentioned the argument was followed shortly by the scream. The question then is how short is shortly? I think Rudy going to the bathroom after the argument would take too long. Also, Rudy likes to speak English. I don't see him yelling in Italian at Amanda. So IMO it is more likely that Amanda and Rafaelle were yelling at eachother. Then again how shortly thereafter was the scream? Was it seconds then the yelling was probably already part of the panicking fase where Meredith was fatally wounded. Was it minutes then maybe Amanda could have left the argument or something else happened. For sure is that Rudy lies about this. If the neighbor could hear this argument then he would have. So either he was not in the bathroom during the final attack but earlier and heard indeed an argument between Meredith and Amanda, or he was in the bathroom during the final attack and heard the Amanda and Rafaelle argument. Conclusion, Rudy is lying and we still don't know what happened :(


Last edited by max on Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top Profile 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

The Bard wrote:
Why is Rudy in a CAGE? Amanda and Raffaelle were not put in a cage?


There certainly is a contrast between how Rudy has been treated (by everyone) and how the others have. I believe Rudy is guilty and should face the consequences. But I also feel he should be treated 'fairly' and that means being treated like the other two. That has been lacking.

By the way, be on guard today for shrieks from the Amanda camp if Rudy's sentence is reduced to one lower then Amanda's ;)

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:15 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

The Bard wrote:
She just WON'T shut up will she. How sick. Amanda has been CONVICTED by a unanimous jury.


Hi Bard,

How many times are news organisations going to interview Curt Knox and Edda Mellas? I think everyone gets the message that Amanda Knox's parents think she is innocent. Is this worth reporting endlessly?
Top Profile 

Offline bucketoftea


User avatar


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:09 pm

Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Ive just emailed the BBC to ask them to spare us any more Edda.

Regarding the handcuffs....I've definitely seen one photo of Amanda appearing to have one cuff on with a sweateer draped over it, coming into the courtroom near the end of the trial.
Top Profile 

Offline Lancelotti


Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:09 pm

Posts: 378

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Michael wrote:
By the way, be on guard today for shrieks from the Amanda camp if Rudy's sentence is reduced to one lower then Amanda's ;)


that would be quite ironic! :lol:
Top Profile 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:29 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Fiona wrote:
I presume because he has been convicted while till recently they were only accused ?



Hi Fiona. Weeell, I have to wonder. He wasn't in a cage yesterday, so obviously it's not necessary. But, we also had this last year at the pre-trial hearing (anyone remember that?). When the pre-trial started Amanda and Raffaele were brought into the court room without handcuffs while Rudy was brought in handcuffed. When he was brought in again handcuffed the next day Raffaele's lawyers had enough and kicked up a big stink to the media and judge about it, that it showed prejudice and unfairness to their client that was visibly not being shown to the others and they had a point. The judge ordered the handcuffs be removed. There 'is' a prejudice against Rudy, just there under the surface.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Emerald


User avatar


Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:53 am

Posts: 1706

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Michael wrote:
Mother 'waits for day' Kerchers know Knox was innocent


The mother of Amanda Knox has said she "waits for the day" the family of murdered British student Meredith Kercher know her daughter is innocent.

BBC NEWS


Quote:
She [Edda Mellas] said: "I wait for the day that they too know that Amanda had nothing to do with it... putting a girl in jail for a crime she didn't commit is not going to make them feel better."


What, exactly, does EM believe is going to make friends and family feel better about having their beloved one brutally murdered?

These media outlets need to stop featuring Edda Mellas. The only thing it is accomplishing is more pain for those who knew, loved and miss Meredith Kercher.

Edda is really losing 'it'. She needs some serious emotional help.
Top Profile 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Google Translation:

Meredith, awaiting sentence for Guede appeal

PERUGIA (Reuters) - E 'in the afternoon pending the ruling of Appeals for Rudy Herman Guede, the Ivorian youth accused of complicity in the murder along with Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito to the death, two years ago, the British student Meredith Kercher.

Judges of Assizes in Perugia have in fact withdrawn in closed session, and it is expected that the verdict arrives in a few hours.

The Attorney General has requested confirmation of the sentence to 30 years in prison Guede decided at first instance rite shortened, while the defense sought acquittal or, in case of conviction, which are assessed all extenuating circumstances "for his young age, because it is uncensored, so you have no connection with the murder weapon and because he certainly did not commit the murder and why his stories are well known "that they saw out of the natural family.

In another trial ended in early December, Knox and Sollecito have been convicted at first instance to 26 and 25 years respectively.

Yesterday the lawyer for plaintiff family Kercher, Francesco Maresca, confirmed Guede's complicity in the murder consumed the night of 1 and 2 November 2007, at Via della Pergola in Perugia, and ruled out the hypothesis of the role of "spectator of Rudy, a murder committed by others."

Nicodemo Gentile, one of Guede's lawyers, spoke of a "process conditioned by the media to the point of doing to accelerate the closure of investigations, so as to leave too many questions hanging," and asked to find the real culprit.

Guede was born in Ivory Coast December 26, 1986. Six years after he arrived in Italy with his father and an aunt, and remained with them in the province of Perugia until adolescence. So the family has collapsed and the boy was given in trust for some time, then reunited with her aunt. He was arrested November 17, 2007.



REUTERS

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline bucketoftea


User avatar


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:09 pm

Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Edda is the one from the mob who is on the ground for European news abuse. Got to keep money coming in, although BBC won't pay. I know they protest they're not paid for their interviews, but that's just a dodge. They will have expenses but very likely a high licensing fee for a family photograph (;)) as well. This is how it works.
Top Profile 

Offline bucketoftea


User avatar


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:09 pm

Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Chris Mellas has been very quiet.
Top Profile 

Offline MikeMCSG


Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:14 am

Posts: 207

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Michael wrote:
There certainly is a contrast between how Rudy has been treated (by everyone) and how the others have. I believe Rudy is guilty and should face the consequences. But I also feel he should be treated 'fairly' and that means being treated like the other two. That has been lacking.



Do you mean by the system or the media Michael ? He made what looks in handsight a bad choice in opting for the fast track trial. It's inconceivable he would have got a longer sentence if he'd been in the dock with the other two.
Top Profile 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

MikeMCSG wrote:
Michael wrote:
There certainly is a contrast between how Rudy has been treated (by everyone) and how the others have. I believe Rudy is guilty and should face the consequences. But I also feel he should be treated 'fairly' and that means being treated like the other two. That has been lacking.



Do you mean by the system or the media Michael ? He made what looks in handsight a bad choice in opting for the fast track trial. It's inconceivable he would have got a longer sentence if he'd been in the dock with the other two.


By both I think Mike. Although, there have been some exceptions in the Italian media, there were a few journalists that made an effort to get to know the real Rudy. Tentatively, I'm mooting the possibility of some institutional racism at play there. Yes, he would have had a shorter sentence were he tried with the other two, but then it isn't in the sentence that I feel it's reflected. However, while we can never know, I suspect had the other two opted for the fast track trial along with Rudy they all would have got a lower sentence then he did alone in his fast track. I think there has been a real 'desire' to be sympathetic, institutionally both in the media and the legal system, to the other two that has not been there for Rudy. It isn't just a lack of sympathy for him, it's a lack of 'interest'. I also think the lack of interest in Rudy's appeal by the Anglo media has been a bit of a scandal too. It just emphasises to me that their interest has never been in Meredith Kercher, but one particular individual that has been on trial.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Google Translation:

Kercher case, after Amelie and the tale of the 3 Little Pigs in the classroom also check "The Fugitive. Biscotti: "Rudy as Sam Sheppard"


He cited the case of Sam Sheppard, accused of murdering his wife but later found innocent after his death, each of which were inspired series and a movie, the lawyer Walter Biscotti closing his harangue in the appeals process to Rudy Guede sentenced to 30 years imprisonment for the murder of Meredith Kercher. The court, remember, is in closed session. The ruling is expected around 16 hours.

''A story that dates back to the Fifties - said the lawyer - when a doctor came into the house, in the U.S., finding his wife dead after meeting a male figure on the staircase of the apartment. He was arrested and convicted but after his death his son managed to prove his innocence.'' According to the lawyer Biscotti ''are not fantasies, but things happen in reality.'' We only hope''- he continued - not to have to wait to see the death of Rudy acknowledged that it was not the charge of murdering Meredith Kercher.''

From the case of Sam Sheppard was taken to the TV series The fugitive and the movie The Fugitive starring Harrison Ford and Tommy Lee Jones.



UMBRIALEFT

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Perugia process, the decisive day for Guede
Perugia is expected for today's sentence for second degree Rudy Guede, who is accused of murdering Meredith Kercher. Prosecutors and the party have asked for confirmation of the sentence for the boy Ivorian

(Video with sound of the Attorney General making closing arguments)

TG24 SKY

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline juliet


Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:08 pm

Posts: 15

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

max wrote:
juliet wrote:
They need to return to the flat to finish what they started. RG argues over what to do, heard by neighbour. They let MK out of cupboard and continue the violence. RG feels thing getting uglier and out of control, goes to bathroom has dump.

Hi juliet, I am also interested in the witness Antonella Monacchia who heard the argument in Italian. Too bad there is not much information about this witness. It was mentioned the argument was followed shortly by the scream. The question then is how short is shortly? I think Rudy going to the bathroom after the argument would take too long. Also, Rudy likes to speak English. I don't see him yelling in Italian at Amanda. So IMO it is more likely that Amanda and Rafaelle were yelling at eachother. Then again how shortly thereafter was the scream? Was it seconds then the yelling was probably already part of the panicking fase where Meredith was fatally wounded. Was it minutes then maybe Amanda could have left the argument or something else happened. For sure is that Rudy lies about this. If the neighbor could hear this argument then he would have. So either he was not in the bathroom during the final attack but earlier and heard indeed an argument between Meredith and Amanda, or he was in the bathroom during the final attack and heard the Amanda and Rafaelle argument. Conclusion, Rudy is lying and we still don't know what happened :(


Thanks Max I didn't pick that up about the proximity of the scream and the argument.

The other possibility of course re RG hearing argument while on toilet, is that RG invented this to show he was surprised by events. The only thing we really know is that he used the toilet, and that it was not after he got his shoes bloody, because those prints lead right out the door.

Somone suggested that his not flushing might corroborate his 'surprised' story. But I don't think we even know if he did omit to flush (someone correct me if I am wrong) as I recall reading that it was only traces of faeces that were found and it was AK who said they were unflushed but later 'slipped down'. RG may simply have ommitted to brush after flushing. And in any case not flushing might indicate sloppiness not necessarily rushing out the toilet in a panic.

The only outside evidence I can see that might support RG not particpating fully in the final attack are: the defensive wound on his hand, the fact that Kokomani has the other 2 with knives but not RG, and perhaps what we know of the background, character and records of the 3 and therefore what the group dynamics may have been.

(The fact that RG did not participate in the staging in my view is a separate issue, this may simply have been because he legged it in a different direction, and it was not his appartment, it does not necessarily indicate a lesser part in the attack.)

Re the argument heard by Antonella Monacchia, yes you are right it may have been either of the 2 women with either of the 2 men. There is just no way to know until one of the 3 tell a better truth than they have thought up to now. mop-)
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Google Translation:

Delitto Perugia, waiting for the verdict in Guede appeal
Tuesday, December 22, 2009
Murder in Perugia. All Parts
December 22, 2009 - It resumed this morning in Perugia, with the replication of the Assistant Attorney General Peter Catalani, the appeal process to Rudy Guede sentenced at first instance in 30 years in prison for the murder of abbreviated rite Meredith Kercher. Immediately after replication, the Assize Court of Final Appeal is withdrawn in closed session to issue the ruling, expected around 16 today. The young Ivorian as the Ansa news agency announced, will be present in court at the time of reading. The PG asked to "confirm in full" the sentence, and so did the lawyer Francesco Maresca and Serena Perna, plaintiff's lawyers for the family Kercher. Defenders of Guede instead - Walter Biscotti and Nicodemo Gentile - reiterated their call for acquittal of the young man who has always proclaimed alien to the facts.


FONDAZIONE ITALIA

(verdict and sentence expected in around one hour and ten minutes from the time of this post)

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline SomeAlibi


User avatar


Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:23 pm

Posts: 1932

Highscores: 7

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Michael wrote:
Fiona wrote:
I presume because he has been convicted while till recently they were only accused ?



Hi Fiona. Weeell, I have to wonder. He wasn't in a cage yesterday, so obviously it's not necessary. But, we also had this last year at the pre-trial hearing (anyone remember that?). When the pre-trial started Amanda and Raffaele were brought into the court room without handcuffs while Rudy was brought in handcuffed. When he was brought in again handcuffed the next day Raffaele's lawyers had enough and kicked up a big stink to the media and judge about it, that it showed prejudice and unfairness to their client that was visibly not being shown to the others and they had a point. The judge ordered the handcuffs be removed. There 'is' a prejudice against Rudy, just there under the surface.


Yes that was unequal treatment. I presume the cage today is because the verdict is handed down today and because, as a convicted criminal rather than as an accused person he poses flight risk / physical danger risk to the persons in the court. It'll be interesting to see if the same happens to AK and RS - I presume it must(?).

_________________
What it is is spin lent credence because it's from the mouth of a lawyer. We've seen how much gravitas they can carry merely by saying something is or is not so when often they are speaking as much rubbish as anyone else.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline The 411


User avatar


Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:49 pm

Posts: 1386

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:28 pm   Post subject: Re: Showing up   

martin wrote:
Hi 411,
your avatar: troia means hooker in Italian


As Nicki has pointed out-- more than once, on this topic--
Troia has different meanings.
One is the slang pejorative meaning essentially
a "slut."
This slang term derived from the term "troia" (LATIN origin) which means
"sow"(i.e., a female pig, zoologically speaking).

And then there is Troia, as in the ancient city of Troy.
This Italian word, while spelled the same, has a totally different (i.e., GREEK) etimology.

My ava-tara is taken from a publicity poster for the Italo-American collaboration blockbuster film "Helen of Troy" aka "Elena di Troia", released in 1956! Now THAT'S ANCIENT!!!


Last edited by The 411 on Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top Profile 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:29 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

SomeAlibi wrote:
Yes that was unequal treatment. I presume the cage today is because the verdict is handed down today and because, as a convicted criminal rather than as an accused person he poses flight risk / physical danger risk to the persons in the court. It'll be interesting to see if the same happens to AK and RS - I presume it must(?).


We'll have to wait and see. Having said that, we should be slightly cautious. As...there is a possibility that the picture wasn't taken in the court room, but of Rudy in the back of the prison van when he arrived at court this morning.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline SomeAlibi


User avatar


Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:23 pm

Posts: 1932

Highscores: 7

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

juliet wrote:
ttrroonniicc wrote:
DeathFish 2000 wrote:
Guede did express what could be regarded as a form of remorse in his diary when he mentioned his guilt at not being able to save Merediths life when he was 'helping' her with towels while she was bleeding to death.
There was no phone to call for help he said, so he left her to die and then went to a disco.

(sorry)


Nobody answered my question recently as to whether people think he fought RS. The Koblenz police photographed what looked like knife defensive wounds on his hand.


Hi Ttrroonniicc. Yes I think RG must have got the defensive wound from RS or AK.

My difficulty in piecing the events together is how to fit together the periods where RG was participating fully as a 3rd member of group (evidenced by Kokomani), and where he was not participating (he was on the toilet, he got defensive wound, he was possibly the one heard by the neighbour arguing with AK?)

Could it have gone like this:

AK and RS leave his appartment, turning their phones off and taking knives with general scaring/hazing plan in mind (whether MK was specific target at this stage not sure). They bump into RG and go to the cottage for smoke and drink. He is not party to original plan, but perhaps they present it to him at some point.

Then either argument kicks off between MK and AK in her room and boys join to support AK, or they 'haze' MK when she has settled to study. Things escalate driven primarily by AK's jealousy and RS's liking for violence, and Guede particpates in some way in sexual violation, egged on by AK. They then lock up MK in cupboard or room and take her phones and leave the cottage.

Kokomani witnesses them outside, AK and RS manic and scary with knives. They are high on adrenalin as well as alcohol and hash probably. RG tries to get use of car for more hazing/kidnapping or other intent? Kokomani hears thuds and RG says it is just from the 'party' - more evidence that something was already started at this point.

They need to return to the flat to finish what they started. RG argues over what to do, heard by neighbour. They let MK out of cupboard and continue the violence. RG feels thing getting uglier and out of control, goes to bathroom has dump. (He perhaps already picks up towels at this point, MK having already been seriously wounded? He returns to find MK has been or being mortally wounded. RG gets defensive wound from RS or AK. They flee, while RG tries to stem blood with towels. He flees too.

Just one possible scenario, trying to fit together what we know. Interested to hear thoughts.

I do, as some others, feel that AK and RS's sentences are light compared to that of RG, especially since he seems to me to have possibly had the lesser parts in instigating the crime, driving it, the extreme violence of it and convering it up.



In your scenario, AK and RS just killed someone with horrendous violence and then they give RG the tiniest of cuts? I mean, if you look at the pictures of his hands, to me it looks entirely unconvincing that those are "defense wounds". I alway suspected these are self inflicted to try and corroborate some sort of story and are correspondingly shallow and insignificant. Someone swinging a knife with intent would have caused a totally different level of damage. They are practically paper cuts for heaven's sake.

_________________
What it is is spin lent credence because it's from the mouth of a lawyer. We've seen how much gravitas they can carry merely by saying something is or is not so when often they are speaking as much rubbish as anyone else.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline piktor


User avatar


Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:30 pm

Posts: 1081

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Here's short video of Guede appeal, possibly today:

http://tg24.sky.it/tg24/cronaca/2009/12 ... guede.html

More SKY.it links:

http://tg24.sky.it/tag/tg24/amanda_knox_1.html
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline The 411


User avatar


Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:49 pm

Posts: 1386

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:58 pm   Post subject: Re: "...Not Found Guilty in Italy..."   

martin wrote:

Hello again 411,
does she believe being a modern version of Helen of Troy? Did I miss something?


There have been a few references to Helen of Troy in this case. And not surprisingly, all of them are from Miss H.O.T.ness herself.
The very first of these H.O.T. references came from Amanda's own diary pages, circa 2007.
She commented on the plethora of admiring fan mail she was receiving in prison from men, all awestruck by her beauty. Amanda remarked that these male admirers seemed to think she was...like Helen of Troy.
Top Profile 

Offline martin


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:28 pm

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:02 pm   Post subject: Re: Showing up   

The 411 wrote:
martin wrote:
Hi 411,
your avatar: troia means hooker in Italian


As Nicki has pointed out-- more than once, on this topic--
Troia has different meanings.
One is the slang pejorative meaning essentially
a "slut."
This slang term derived from the term "troia" (LATIN origin) which means
"sow"(i.e., a female pig, zoologically speaking).

And then there is Troia, as in the ancient city of Troy.

Hi 411,
of course I know that "troia" also means the city of troy, (in German, the city is also called Troia), would be interesting to know if the ancient greek name was also troia
Back to my question: does she believe being a modern Helen of Troy?

My ava-tara is taken from a publicity poster for the Italo-American collaboration blockbuster film "Helen of Troy" aka "Elena di Troia", released in 1956! Now THAT'S ANCIENT!!!
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Emerald wrote:
Michael wrote:
Mother 'waits for day' Kerchers know Knox was innocent


The mother of Amanda Knox has said she "waits for the day" the family of murdered British student Meredith Kercher know her daughter is innocent.

BBC NEWS


Quote:
She [Edda Mellas] said: "I wait for the day that they too know that Amanda had nothing to do with it... putting a girl in jail for a crime she didn't commit is not going to make them feel better."


What, exactly, does EM believe is going to make friends and family feel better about having their beloved one brutally murdered?

These media outlets need to stop featuring Edda Mellas. The only thing it is accomplishing is more pain for those who knew, loved and miss Meredith Kercher.

Edda is really losing 'it'. She needs some serious emotional help.


Sometimes it is better just to keep one's mouth shut. Edda blew a great opportunity to do just that. The Kerchers gave a press conference after the verdict, in which they said that they will never have their daughter back and that's why they can never really "feel better". However, they also said they were satisfied with the verdict and even showed some compassion for the three young people convicted of murdering their daughter. Edda, in contrast, shows no compassion for their situation and instead takes a line from Kelly 13's playbook and tells them how they "should" feel.

It is time for the Knox and Mellas family to shut up for a few minutes and let the Kerchers alone. We are approaching the end of year holidays; a perfect time for SILENT reflection so that those who have lost their loved ones can gather together and find some solace.

_________________
Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point; on le sait en mille choses.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline The Bard


User avatar


Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:46 pm

Posts: 2486

Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

SomeAlibi wrote:
Michael wrote:
Fiona wrote:
I presume because he has been convicted while till recently they were only accused ?



Hi Fiona. Weeell, I have to wonder. He wasn't in a cage yesterday, so obviously it's not necessary. But, we also had this last year at the pre-trial hearing (anyone remember that?). When the pre-trial started Amanda and Raffaele were brought into the court room without handcuffs while Rudy was brought in handcuffed. When he was brought in again handcuffed the next day Raffaele's lawyers had enough and kicked up a big stink to the media and judge about it, that it showed prejudice and unfairness to their client that was visibly not being shown to the others and they had a point. The judge ordered the handcuffs be removed. There 'is' a prejudice against Rudy, just there under the surface.


Yes that was unequal treatment. I presume the cage today is because the verdict is handed down today and because, as a convicted criminal rather than as an accused person he poses flight risk / physical danger risk to the persons in the court. It'll be interesting to see if the same happens to AK and RS - I presume it must(?).



It would be interesting to know if that was in the court. There must be some footage of him in there so we can see properly. I am shocked that he has received such different treatment to Raffanda. I leaves a very nasty taste indeed. What with that and seeing Edda and Curt on the BBC of all places, being allowed to propogate lies AGAIN, unquestioned...I think I will write and complain too. I expect balanced reporting from the BBC, not unfiltered propaganda by the parents of a convicted killer. Unbelievable.

_________________
Top Profile 

Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

bucketoftea wrote:
Chris Mellas has been very quiet.


I think Edda and Curt work as a tag team. Chris only gets a turn when they are indisposed.

_________________
Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point; on le sait en mille choses.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline PointBlank


Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:46 pm

Posts: 30

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

I hope the appellate court let Guede free. Just take a look at the case:

- No motive.
- No murder weapon found and confirmed.
- The prosecutor is under indictment, hence trial is unfair.
- The prosecutor is obsessed with Satanism. A simple drug pusher engaged in satanic rites? Please.
- The jury is not sequestered, hence trial is unfair.
- DNA evidence could have been contaminated.
- The Italian police is notoriously brutal during interrogations, hence Guede's confession should be discounted.
- Guede's confession was not really a confession. He did not confess to the crime.
- There is not a single trace of Guede in Filomena's room. You cannot climb through a smashed window, deemed by police too narrow to even get through, without leaving a trace. You cannot even go to the bathroom without leaving abundant DNA.
- Italy's justice system is corrupt.
- Guede was subject to character assassination in the media.
- The jury was influenced by anti-Coté D'Ivoirean sentiment, alternatively racism.
- Guede's flight to Germany might be seen as suspicious but everyone deals with sorrow in their own way.
- The footprint on the bathroom mat does not match. If it doesn't fit, you must acquit!

Analogical points are reiterated over and over by those who demand acquittal for Knox and Sollecito in championing the "beyond reasonable doubt" principle; yet they spend not a second thought about sending Guede off to spend 30 years in prison. For people so passionate about exacting rule of law, they are oddly selective about who should be graced by Lady Justice.

I expect CBS reporters to celebrate with relief when Guede is released from his predicament, or alternatively, trash talking the Italian justice system if his sentence is confirmed. Unfortunately, my expectations will not be met.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline SomeAlibi


User avatar


Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:23 pm

Posts: 1932

Highscores: 7

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Emerald wrote:
Michael wrote:
Mother 'waits for day' Kerchers know Knox was innocent


The mother of Amanda Knox has said she "waits for the day" the family of murdered British student Meredith Kercher know her daughter is innocent.

BBC NEWS


Quote:
She [Edda Mellas] said: "I wait for the day that they too know that Amanda had nothing to do with it... putting a girl in jail for a crime she didn't commit is not going to make them feel better."


What, exactly, does EM believe is going to make friends and family feel better about having their beloved one brutally murdered?

These media outlets need to stop featuring Edda Mellas. The only thing it is accomplishing is more pain for those who knew, loved and miss Meredith Kercher.

Edda is really losing 'it'. She needs some serious emotional help.


Sometimes it is better just to keep one's mouth shut. Edda blew a great opportunity to do just that. The Kerchers gave a press conference after the verdict, in which they said that they will never have their daughter back and that's why they can never really "feel better". However, they also said they were satisfied with the verdict and even showed some compassion for the three young people convicted of murdering their daughter. Edda, in contrast, shows no compassion for their situation and instead takes a line from Kelly 13's playbook and tells them how they "should" feel.

It is time for the Knox and Mellas family to shut up for a few minutes and let the Kerchers alone. We are approaching the end of year holidays; a perfect time for SILENT reflection so that those who have lost their loved ones can gather together and find some solace.


That is to good ideas what spitting into the wind and eating yellow snow is to bad ideas.... unfortunately it's Edda.... She shuts up and I really will start to believe in Santa Claus...

_________________
What it is is spin lent credence because it's from the mouth of a lawyer. We've seen how much gravitas they can carry merely by saying something is or is not so when often they are speaking as much rubbish as anyone else.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline SomeAlibi


User avatar


Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:23 pm

Posts: 1932

Highscores: 7

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

PointBlank wrote:
I hope the appellate court let Guede free. Just take a look at the case:

- No motive.
- No murder weapon found and confirmed.
- The prosecutor is under indictment, hence trial is unfair.
- The prosecutor is obsessed with Satanism. A simple drug pusher engaged in satanic rites? Please.
- The jury is not sequestered, hence trial is unfair.
- DNA evidence could have been contaminated.
- The Italian police is notoriously brutal during interrogations, hence Guede's confession should be discounted.
- Guede's confession was not really a confession. He did not confess to the crime.
- There is not a single trace of Guede in Filomena's room. You cannot climb through a smashed window, deemed by police too narrow to even get through, without leaving a trace. You cannot even go to the bathroom without leaving abundant DNA.
- Italy's justice system is corrupt.
- Guede was subject to character assassination in the media.
- The jury was influenced by anti-Coté D'Ivoirean sentiment, alternatively racism.
- Guede's flight to Germany might be seen as suspicious but everyone deals with sorrow in their own way.
- The footprint on the bathroom mat does not match. If it doesn't fit, you must acquit!

Analogical points are reiterated over and over by those who demand acquittal for Knox and Sollecito in championing the "beyond reasonable doubt" principle; yet they spend not a second thought about sending Guede off to spend 30 years in prison. For people so passionate about exacting rule of law, they are oddly selective about who should be graced by Lady Justice.

I expect CBS reporters to celebrate with relief when Guede is released from his predicament, or alternatively, trash talking the Italian justice system if his sentence is confirmed. Unfortunately, my expectations will not be met.


Hahahahahahah. Thank you. That's the best laugh I've had all week.

_________________
What it is is spin lent credence because it's from the mouth of a lawyer. We've seen how much gravitas they can carry merely by saying something is or is not so when often they are speaking as much rubbish as anyone else.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline DeathFish 2000


User avatar


Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:53 pm

Posts: 340

Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Indeed Skeptical Bystander.
She should shut up but perhaps before she does, show some respect to the family of the victim, something that has been distinctly lacking from her and the rest of the Knox/Mellas group.

_________________
R.I.P
Meredith Kercher.
Top Profile 

Offline beans


Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:00 am

Posts: 220

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

My first post re this case was on TJMK, and I, the usual ill-informed newbie, gave my idea of what went down in Perugia. I said I thought since Rudy was a drug dealer, he made some sort of deal with Amanda and Raffaele that in exchange for drugs, Amanda would arrange for him to have a go at Meredith. I was promptly corrected, by Peter as I recall, to the fact that before the break-in in Milan, Rudy had no criminal record at all and was, in fact, not a drug dealer. I think that a great deal of the negative picture that has been painted of Rudy Guede and his “nefarious past” has been the result of unsubstantiated rumor and innuendo by the media, the FOA, the Knox-Mellas clan and their lawyers. I have read that, “Rudy was known to the police.” Do we actually know this is true? This is not meant to be an in your face question, I am just curious to know if there is actual proof of that statement. Or is it just that someone, perhaps early on in the case, printed that along with other unsubstantiated facts.

I ran across the following article re Rudy the other day. It is an additional piece of information re his character, similar to the interview with Mrs. Marcella, from people who actually knew Rudy well.


From “Ironic Surrealism v3.0, Archive for November 20th, 2007, Fourth Suspect Arrested in Meredith Kercher Murder Case (//ironicsurrealism.blogivists.com/10007/11/20)
The 1.79-metre Guede played guard for the ‘UISP Pallacanestro Perugia’ basketball team in Italy’s C1 third division until the 2004-05 season, police said.
Former team mates described him as ”a great lad with a great passion for the game, always on time for training, always ready to help others”.
His former club chairman, Roberto Segoloni, said Guede was ”more than perfect”.
He said he thought it was ”premature” to link him with such a serious crime.
Guede came to Italy as a five-year-old to join his father but moved out when a Perugia businessman’s family offered him a foster home when he was 17.
The businessman’s son made friends with the Ivorian at an open-air basketball court.
He left the affluent family when he turned 18 to join some of his other relatives in Lecco north of Milan.
Guede later returned to Perugia and worked as a gardener in a farm-tourism restaurant run by his foster family.
Earlier, he reportedly held down bar jobs to support himself while doing hotel and computer courses.
Guede broke off relations with the family in August.
The businessman’s daughter told ANSA Guede was a shy and introverted youth who never showed signs of violence.
”He was like an extra brother for us,” she said. Guede’s adoptive mother reportedly broke down in tears, repeating ”It’s not possible, it isn’t possible”.
Guede’s adoptive father ‘Paolo Caporali’ does not speak so highly or lovingly of him as did his adoptive sister and mother. Puzzling to be sure.
Guede is said to have lived in Perugia since he was five years old. In recent years, he was adopted by an Italian family.
The father, Paolo Caporali, 62, told the Italian national newspaper La Repubblica: “It is pointless to hide the fact that for me, Rudy was a disappointment. I hoped to help him build a future, I thought I had given him an opportunity. But as the months passed I understood I was mistaken, that my hopes were all met with delusion.
“He said he was at school, but he skipped class. He preferred to spend the day in front of the television or with video games. He had little wish to study, and even less to work.”

Mr. Caporali’s description doesn’t sound too different from the problem of a teenager gone astray that many other long-suffering families have had to deal with. I wonder if Rudy had actually been Mr. Caporali’s son, if there might not have been a different outcome. (I am not trying to imply that Caporali did anything wrong—but a person might deal differently with his own flesh an blood.)

Lest I be lambasted for defending Rudy, I believe he is at least guilty of complicity, obviously he was involved in the rape, and he left Meredith to die—he deserves to be punished. But I don’t think he has been treated fairly by the media and that a lot of people’s impressions of his character have been born of misinformation. I doubt that had RS and AK not met him and persuaded him to join in, that he would have hurt Meredith on his own. I think the other two set him up. He took the short form trial to avoid being tried with them because he felt they would try to pin the whole thing on him—in light of the defense lawyers actions in the trial of AK/RS, he seems to have had that right. I also think “black man found, black man guilty” has definitely had some relevance here, whether or not Raffaele said it. In short, I think it would be a travesty of justice if his sentence is for a longer period than AK and RS

Edited to add: If the figure 1.79 meters for Rudy's height is correct, that would make him approximately 5 feet 9 inches tall, not the super tall guy that some have implied.


Last edited by beans on Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline dittany1


Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:29 am

Posts: 4

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Wow Edda sounds like she's blaiming the Kerchers for Amanda's sentence - "putting a girl in jail for a crime she didn't commit is not going to make them feel better". Does she really hold the Kercher's responsible for Amanda's sentence?

First post here by the way, I've been reading through everything that's been posted - it has been very enlightening compared to the propaganda that the Knox family have managed to keep at the top of the headlines.

It is disgusting that Guede with his appeal continues his slanders on his victim Meredith Kercher claiming that she consented to his rape of her. I hope the court upholds the thirty years. Maybe they should add a few more years just to make sure he gets the message.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline DeathFish 2000


User avatar


Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:53 pm

Posts: 340

Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

dittany1 wrote:
Wow Edda sounds like she's blaiming the Kerchers for Amanda's sentence - "putting a girl in jail for a crime she didn't commit is not going to make them feel better". Does she really hold the Kercher's responsible for Amanda's sentence?

First post here by the way, I've been reading through everything that's been posted - it has been very enlightening compared to the propaganda that the Knox family have managed to keep at the top of the headlines.

It is disgusting that Guede with his appeal continues his slanders on his victim Meredith Kercher claiming that she consented to his rape of her. I hope the court upholds the thirty years. Maybe they should add a few more years just to make sure he gets the message.


I believe she does dittany1.
I also believe they blame Meredith for their perfect daughters initial arrest and subsequent incarceration.
Meredith Kercher (or Kerchner as Ciolino refers to her as) is just a pesky English girl who went and got herself murdered and in doing so landed the poor innocent victim in jail.

_________________
R.I.P
Meredith Kercher.
Top Profile 

Offline SomeAlibi


User avatar


Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:23 pm

Posts: 1932

Highscores: 7

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

beans wrote:
My first post re this case was on TJMK, and I, the usual ill-informed newbie, gave my idea of what went down in Perugia. I said I thought since Rudy was a drug dealer, he made some sort of deal with Amanda and Raffaele that in exchange for drugs, Amanda would arrange for him to have a go at Meredith. I was promptly corrected, by Peter as I recall, to the fact that before the break-in in Milan, Rudy had no criminal record at all and was, in fact, not a drug dealer. I think that a great deal of the negative picture that has been painted of Rudy Guede and his “nefarious past” has been the result of unsubstantiated rumor and innuendo by the media, the FOA, the Knox-Mellas clan and their lawyers. I have read that, “Rudy was known to the police.” Do we actually know this is true? This is not meant to be an in your face question, I am just curious to know if there is actual proof of that statement. Or is it just that someone, perhaps early on in the case, printed that along with other unsubstantiated facts.

I ran across the following article re Rudy the other day. It is an additional piece of information re his character, similar to the interview with Mrs. Marcella, from people who actually knew Rudy well.


From “Ironic Surrealism v3.0, Archive for November 20th, 2007, Fourth Suspect Arrested in Meredith Kercher Murder Case (//ironicsurrealism.blogivists.com/10007/11/20)
The 1.79-metre Guede played guard for the ‘UISP Pallacanestro Perugia’ basketball team in Italy’s C1 third division until the 2004-05 season, police said.
Former team mates described him as ”a great lad with a great passion for the game, always on time for training, always ready to help others”.
His former club chairman, Roberto Segoloni, said Guede was ”more than perfect”.
He said he thought it was ”premature” to link him with such a serious crime.
Guede came to Italy as a five-year-old to join his father but moved out when a Perugia businessman’s family offered him a foster home when he was 17.
The businessman’s son made friends with the Ivorian at an open-air basketball court.
He left the affluent family when he turned 18 to join some of his other relatives in Lecco north of Milan.
Guede later returned to Perugia and worked as a gardener in a farm-tourism restaurant run by his foster family.
Earlier, he reportedly held down bar jobs to support himself while doing hotel and computer courses.
Guede broke off relations with the family in August.
The businessman’s daughter told ANSA Guede was a shy and introverted youth who never showed signs of violence.
”He was like an extra brother for us,” she said. Guede’s adoptive mother reportedly broke down in tears, repeating ”It’s not possible, it isn’t possible”.
Guede’s adoptive father ‘Paolo Caporali’ does not speak so highly or lovingly of him as did his adoptive sister and mother. Puzzling to be sure.
Guede is said to have lived in Perugia since he was five years old. In recent years, he was adopted by an Italian family.
The father, Paolo Caporali, 62, told the Italian national newspaper La Repubblica: “It is pointless to hide the fact that for me, Rudy was a disappointment. I hoped to help him build a future, I thought I had given him an opportunity. But as the months passed I understood I was mistaken, that my hopes were all met with delusion.
“He said he was at school, but he skipped class. He preferred to spend the day in front of the television or with video games. He had little wish to study, and even less to work.”

Mr. Caporali’s description doesn’t sound too different from the problem of a teenager gone astray that many other long-suffering families have had to deal with. I wonder if Rudy had actually been Mr. Caporali’s son, if there might not have been a different outcome. (I am not trying to imply that Caporali did anything wrong—but a person might deal differently with his own flesh an blood.)

Lest I be lambasted for defending Rudy, I believe he is at least guilty of complicity, obviously he was involved in the rape, and he left Meredith to die—he deserves to be punished. But I don’t think he has been treated fairly by the media and that a lot of people’s impressions of his character have been born of misinformation. I doubt that had RS and AK not met him and persuaded him to join in, that he would have hurt Meredith on his own. I think the other two set him up. He took the short form trial to avoid being tried with them because he felt they would try to pin the whole thing on him—in light of the defense lawyers actions in the trial of AK/RS, he seems to have had that right. I also think “black man found, black man guilty” has definitely had some relevance here, whether or not Raffaele said it. In short, I think it would be a travesty of justice if his sentence is for a longer period than AK and RS



I'm sorry did you re-read what you posted? "He was involved in the rape, and he left Meredith to die" and you think that the press gave him a hard time by saying he was a petty dope dealer???!?!??!?! WTF?!

_________________
What it is is spin lent credence because it's from the mouth of a lawyer. We've seen how much gravitas they can carry merely by saying something is or is not so when often they are speaking as much rubbish as anyone else.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline nicki

Forensics Moderator


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:27 am

Posts: 847

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

beans wrote:
My first post re this case was on TJMK, and I, the usual ill-informed newbie, gave my idea of what went down in Perugia. I said I thought since Rudy was a drug dealer, he made some sort of deal with Amanda and Raffaele that in exchange for drugs, Amanda would arrange for him to have a go at Meredith. I was promptly corrected, by Peter as I recall, to the fact that before the break-in in Milan, Rudy had no criminal record at all and was, in fact, not a drug dealer. I think that a great deal of the negative picture that has been painted of Rudy Guede and his “nefarious past” has been the result of unsubstantiated rumor and innuendo by the media, the FOA, the Knox-Mellas clan and their lawyers. I have read that, “Rudy was known to the police.” Do we actually know this is true? This is not meant to be an in your face question, I am just curious to know if there is actual proof of that statement. Or is it just that someone, perhaps early on in the case, printed that along with other unsubstantiated facts.

I ran across the following article re Rudy the other day. It is an additional piece of information re his character, similar to the interview with Mrs. Marcella, from people who actually knew Rudy well.


From “Ironic Surrealism v3.0, Archive for November 20th, 2007, Fourth Suspect Arrested in Meredith Kercher Murder Case (//ironicsurrealism.blogivists.com/10007/11/20)
The 1.79-metre Guede played guard for the ‘UISP Pallacanestro Perugia’ basketball team in Italy’s C1 third division until the 2004-05 season, police said.
Former team mates described him as ”a great lad with a great passion for the game, always on time for training, always ready to help others”.
His former club chairman, Roberto Segoloni, said Guede was ”more than perfect”.
He said he thought it was ”premature” to link him with such a serious crime.
Guede came to Italy as a five-year-old to join his father but moved out when a Perugia businessman’s family offered him a foster home when he was 17.
The businessman’s son made friends with the Ivorian at an open-air basketball court.
He left the affluent family when he turned 18 to join some of his other relatives in Lecco north of Milan.
Guede later returned to Perugia and worked as a gardener in a farm-tourism restaurant run by his foster family.
Earlier, he reportedly held down bar jobs to support himself while doing hotel and computer courses.
Guede broke off relations with the family in August.
The businessman’s daughter told ANSA Guede was a shy and introverted youth who never showed signs of violence.
”He was like an extra brother for us,” she said. Guede’s adoptive mother reportedly broke down in tears, repeating ”It’s not possible, it isn’t possible”.
Guede’s adoptive father ‘Paolo Caporali’ does not speak so highly or lovingly of him as did his adoptive sister and mother. Puzzling to be sure.
Guede is said to have lived in Perugia since he was five years old. In recent years, he was adopted by an Italian family.
The father, Paolo Caporali, 62, told the Italian national newspaper La Repubblica: “It is pointless to hide the fact that for me, Rudy was a disappointment. I hoped to help him build a future, I thought I had given him an opportunity. But as the months passed I understood I was mistaken, that my hopes were all met with delusion.
“He said he was at school, but he skipped class. He preferred to spend the day in front of the television or with video games. He had little wish to study, and even less to work.”

Mr. Caporali’s description doesn’t sound too different from the problem of a teenager gone astray that many other long-suffering families have had to deal with. I wonder if Rudy had actually been Mr. Caporali’s son, if there might not have been a different outcome. (I am not trying to imply that Caporali did anything wrong—but a person might deal differently with his own flesh an blood.)

Lest I be lambasted for defending Rudy, I believe he is at least guilty of complicity, obviously he was involved in the rape, and he left Meredith to die—he deserves to be punished. But I don’t think he has been treated fairly by the media and that a lot of people’s impressions of his character have been born of misinformation. I doubt that had RS and AK not met him and persuaded him to join in, that he would have hurt Meredith on his own. I think the other two set him up. He took the short form trial to avoid being tried with them because he felt they would try to pin the whole thing on him—in light of the defense lawyers actions in the trial of AK/RS, he seems to have had that right. I also think “black man found, black man guilty” has definitely had some relevance here, whether or not Raffaele said it. In short, I think it would be a travesty of justice if his sentence is for a longer period than AK and RS

Edited to add: If the figure 1.79 meters for Rudy's height is correct, that would make him approximately 5 feet 9 inches tall, not the super tall guy that some have implied.

HiBeans,
As a matter of fact, Rudy's attorney today have asked the court-in case they are going to confirm his conviction-, to apply mitigating circumstances due to his young age, his life history and absence of criminal records. Basically the same factors that the court considered when they sentenced Knox and Sollecito to 26 and 25 years. Incidentally,this should clear for good all the rumors spread by the FOA about Rudy's "criminal past".

_________________
"A pensare male si fa peccato, ma molto spesso ci si azzecca" mike
Top Profile 

Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Hmmm, it looks like Rudy 'was' kept in the cage:



_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline PointBlank


Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:46 pm

Posts: 30

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

SomeAlibi wrote:
PointBlank wrote:
I hope the appellate court let Guede free. Just take a look at the case:

- No motive.
- No murder weapon found and confirmed.
- The prosecutor is under indictment, hence trial is unfair.
- The prosecutor is obsessed with Satanism. A simple drug pusher engaged in satanic rites? Please.
- The jury is not sequestered, hence trial is unfair.
- DNA evidence could have been contaminated.
- The Italian police is notoriously brutal during interrogations, hence Guede's confession should be discounted.
- Guede's confession was not really a confession. He did not confess to the crime.
- There is not a single trace of Guede in Filomena's room. You cannot climb through a smashed window, deemed by police too narrow to even get through, without leaving a trace. You cannot even go to the bathroom without leaving abundant DNA.
- Italy's justice system is corrupt.
- Guede was subject to character assassination in the media.
- The jury was influenced by anti-Coté D'Ivoirean sentiment, alternatively racism.
- Guede's flight to Germany might be seen as suspicious but everyone deals with sorrow in their own way.
- The footprint on the bathroom mat does not match. If it doesn't fit, you must acquit!

Analogical points are reiterated over and over by those who demand acquittal for Knox and Sollecito in championing the "beyond reasonable doubt" principle; yet they spend not a second thought about sending Guede off to spend 30 years in prison. For people so passionate about exacting rule of law, they are oddly selective about who should be graced by Lady Justice.

I expect CBS reporters to celebrate with relief when Guede is released from his predicament, or alternatively, trash talking the Italian justice system if his sentence is confirmed. Unfortunately, my expectations will not be met.


Hahahahahahah. Thank you. That's the best laugh I've had all week.


My pleasure. Although I cannot take credit for coming up with the material...

By the way, I was wrong. Guede had a different prosecutor. Take satanism out of the picture and it is a sealed case. Besides they already have someone convicted of the murder, namely Guede. See, the fast-track trial is a lone killers trial only. Opting for the fast-track trial is for champs. tt-)


Last edited by PointBlank on Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

Beans wrote: "If the figure 1.79 meters for Rudy's height is correct, that would make him approximately 5 feet 9 inches tall, not the super tall guy that some have implied."

I once had free access to a website with player stats for European basketball. I provided the information about Rudy Guede on an earlier version of this board, but I don't have time to find the post. If my memory is correct, Rudy is 1.80m, which would make him about 6 feet tall. He is very thin, which possibly makes him seem taller. He is often described as "tall and thin", but that is pretty meaningless when you think about it. Amanda Knox is "short", but what does that mean?

If Guede is 6 feet tall, then I would consider him to be "above average" in height, but not tall. And certainly not tall for a basketball player. I also seem to remember he was a point guard.

You could pay a small fee to access this information here. I'm sorry I didn't copy it and put it in a personal file marked Rudy stats when it was available free of charge:

http://tinyurl.com/ybxdt8c

_________________
Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point; on le sait en mille choses.
Top Profile E-mail 

Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:15 pm   Post subject: Re: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Dec 9 -   

nicki wrote:
beans wrote:
My first post re this case was on TJMK, and I, the usual ill-informed newbie, gave my idea of what went down in Perugia. I said I thought since Rudy was a drug dealer, he made some sort of deal with Amanda and Raffaele that in exchange for drugs, Amanda would arrange for him to have a go at Meredith. I was promptly corrected, by Peter as I recall, to the fact that before the break-in in Milan, Rudy had no criminal record at all and was, in fact, not a drug dealer. I think that a great deal of the negative picture that has been painted of Rudy Guede and his “nefarious past” has been the result of unsubstantiated rumor and innuendo by the media, the FOA, the Knox-Mellas clan and their lawyers. I have read that, “Rudy was known to the police.” Do we actually know this is true? This is not meant to be an in your face question, I am just curious to know if there is actual proof of that statement. Or is it just that someone, perhaps early on in the case, printed that along with other unsubstantiated facts.

I ran across the following article re Rudy the other day. It is an additional piece of information re his character, similar to the interview with Mrs. Marcella, from people who actually knew Rudy well.


From “Ironic Surrealism v3.0, Archive for November 20th, 2007, Fourth Suspect Arrested in Meredith Kercher Murder Case (//ironicsurrealism.blogivists.com/10007/11/20)
The 1.79-metre Guede played guard for the ‘UISP Pallacanestro Perugia’ basketball team in Italy’s C1 third division until the 2004-05 season, police said.
Former team mates described him as ”a great lad with a great passion for the game, always on time for training, always ready to help others”.
His former club chairman, Roberto Segoloni, said Guede was ”more than perfect”.
He said he thought it was ”premature” to link him with such a serious crime.
Guede came to Italy as a five-year-old to join his father but moved out when a Perugia businessman’s family offered him a foster home when he was 17.
The businessman’s son made friends with the Ivorian at an open-air basketball court.
He left the affluent family when he turned 18 to join some of his other relatives in Lecco north of Milan.
Guede later returned to Perugia and worked as a gardener in a farm-tourism restaurant run by his foster family.
Earlier, he reportedly held down bar jobs to support himself while doing hotel and computer courses.
Guede broke off relations with the family in August.
The businessman’s daughter told ANSA Guede was a shy and introverted youth who never showed signs of violence.
”He was like an extra brother for us,” she said. Guede’s adoptive mother reportedly broke down in tears, repeating ”It’s not possible, it isn’t possible”.
Guede’s adoptive father ‘Paolo Caporali’ does not speak so highly or lovingly of him as did his adoptive sister and mother. Puzzling to be sure.
Guede is said to have lived in Perugia since he was five years old. In recent years, he was adopted by an Italian family.
The father, Paolo Caporali, 62, told the Italian national newspaper La Repubblica: “It is pointless to hide the fact that for me, Rudy was a disappointment. I hoped to help him build a future, I thought I had given him an opportunity. But as the months passed I understood I was mistaken, that my hopes were all met with delusion.
“He said he was at school, but he skipped class. He preferred to spend the day in front of the television or with video games. He had little wish to study, and even less to work.”

Mr. Caporali’s description doesn’t sound too different from the problem of a teenager gone astray that many other long-suffering families have had to deal with. I wonder if Rudy had actually been Mr. Caporali’s son, if there might not have been a different outcome. (I am not trying to imply that Caporali did anything wrong—but a person might deal differently with his own flesh an blood.)

Lest I be lambasted for defending Rudy, I believe he is at least guilty of complicity, obviously he was involved in the rape, and he left Meredith to die—he deserves to be punished. But I don’t think he has been treated fairly by the media and that a lot of people’s impressions of his character have been born of misinformation. I doubt that had RS and AK not met him and persuaded him to join in, that he would have hurt Meredith on his own. I think the other two set him up. He took the short form trial to avoid being tried with them because he felt they would try to pin the whole thing on him—in light of the defense lawyers actions in the trial of AK/RS, he seems to have had that right. I also think “black man found, black man guilty” has definitely had some relevance here, whether or not Raffaele said it. In short, I think it would be a travesty of justice if his sentence is for a longer period than AK and RS

Edited to add: If the figure 1.79 meters for Rudy's height is correct, that would make him approximately 5 feet 9 inches tall, not the super tall guy that some have implied.

HiBeans,
As a matter of fact, Rudy's attorney today have asked the court-in case they are going to confirm his conviction-, to apply mitigating circumstances due to his young age, his life history and absence of criminal records. Basically the same factors that the court considered when they sentenced Knox and Sollecito to 26 and 25 years. Incidentally,this should clear for good all the rumors spread by the FOA about Rudy's "criminal past".


You are forgetting that the FOA has on numerous occasions proven beyond reasonable doubt that its members are absolutely impervious to facts. Their worldview is set in stone. Nothing, and I mean nothing, can alter it.

Incidentally, while looking for Rudy Guede's stats, I kept seeing references to Knox's defense attorney + jobless drifter. The fact that Guede lived in an apartment, just like Sollecito, and paid rent seems not to have penetrated either.

_________________
Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point; on le sait en mille choses.
Top Profile E-mail 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 Page 10 of 14 [ 3464 posts ]
Go to page Previous  1 ... 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14  Next


Who is online
Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], CommonCrawl [Bot] and 0 guests

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

  

Judge Massei Sentencing Report     The Meredith Kercher Fund     The Murder Of Meredith Kercher Wiki     True Justice For Meredith Kercher     Judge Nencini Sentencing Report 


29,144,430 Views