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XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 - Dec 9, 09

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Offline Johnnie


Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:35 am

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Michael wrote:
Johnnie wrote:
Goodmorning
i have a question about this. tia

(Filomena Romanelli recalled watching her boyfriend, Marco Zaroli, and a friend, Luca Altieri, breaking into the locked bedroom where Kercher lay dead)

So that door was locked .
Was the key inside the door ?
Or was the key disappeared ?


Yes, the door was locked and the keys have never been found.


Thanks Michael !
Was there Dna on the door handle ?
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Offline Tara


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Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

Posts: 1010

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Brian S. wrote:
Dear All,

I want to make a post.

I have been incredibly ill over the last two months, I don't want to go into it. I guess it's what comes with age.

Pete, you know I've had my arguments with you but what you've done over the last few days has been incredible.

I still keep up..

Signing off now

Brian


Hi Brian,

I, like The Bard also thought of you when the verdict was announced. Your analysis over the past 2 years has been a "go to" reference for me on many, many occasions.

My thoughts are with you and wish you strength in your recovery process.

Thank you so much for checking in - it's great to hear from you.

All the best,

Tara

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Offline GreenWyvern


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:14 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Johnnie wrote:
Was there Dna on the door handle ?

DNA on the door handle would prove nothing, since Knox lived there, and Sollecito and had visited.
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Offline jfk1191


Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:46 am

Posts: 286

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

capealadin wrote:
Hi, Emerald, You could be right, but I just feel that she was so jealous of Meredith, what with taking her job, taking her to task about her boyfriends and cleaning (skills) and just being intimidated with her european savoir faire, and the attack seemed so personal, so much anger... nothing stolen, Rudi and Raffaele didn't know Meredith well enough to inflict such a frenzied personal attack. Feel free to correct me, i am open to all opinions, because I couldn't hurt a "spider". lol


To accept Mignini's theory is only one choice.
Just because it was voted most likley, doesn't mean it is fact. Much of it is very speculative.

Rudys story, most believe, has some truth mixed in with the lies.
What if Amanda was never in the room? What if only Rudy is all over the bedroom because he was the only one, and a Raffaele with a red/white cap was the murderer?

When do you think she was attacked is a point I am very "stuck" or unclear about.

I think in my theory Meredith was attacked at 8:56pm when her cellphone call was oddly cutoff. Maybe it was the attack moment, maybe it wasn't?

But its just as viable a thought as 11:30pm because some 70yr old women can hear through cement 70 meters away.

But its more critical in that if it was 8:56pm, and Amanda was talking to Popovic at 8:42pm...then its highly unlikely she was at the cottage committing murder within 13minutes.
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Offline Johnnie


Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:35 am

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

GreenWyvern wrote:
Johnnie wrote:
Was there Dna on the door handle ?

DNA on the door handle would prove nothing, since Knox lived there, and Sollecito and had visited.


i mean on the door handle inside the room
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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Only one mainstream Seattle news station, KOMO4 (ABC), made mention of Amanda Knox this morning. Something about how she asked to work in the laundry at the prison and also continue her education by taking some correspondence courses through the UW.

What was interesting (or not) at the end of the report was Hillary Clinton. She stated that her department will continue to provide support as they do for all situations like this abroad. Ho Hum.

In the meantime, Knox can hone her laundry and folding skills enough to perhaps work at a drycleaners when she gets out in the distant future.

Next.

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Offline Kermit


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:42 pm   Post subject: Synchronise watches to F.S.T. (FOA Standard Time)   

jfk1191 wrote:
capealadin wrote:
Hi, Emerald, You could be right, but I just feel that she was so jealous of Meredith, what with taking her job, taking her to task about her boyfriends and cleaning (skills) and just being intimidated with her european savoir faire, and the attack seemed so personal, so much anger... nothing stolen, Rudi and Raffaele didn't know Meredith well enough to inflict such a frenzied personal attack. Feel free to correct me, i am open to all opinions, because I couldn't hurt a "spider". lol


To accept Mignini's theory is only one choice.
Just because it was voted most likley, doesn't mean it is fact. Much of it is very speculative.

Rudys story, most believe, has some truth mixed in with the lies.
What if Amanda was never in the room? What if only Rudy is all over the bedroom because he was the only one, and a Raffaele with a red/white cap was the murderer?

When do you think she was attacked is a point I am very "stuck" or unclear about.

I think in my theory Meredith was attacked at 8:56pm when her cellphone call was oddly cutoff. Maybe it was the attack moment, maybe it wasn't?

But its just as viable a thought as 11:30pm because some 70yr old women can hear through cement 70 meters away.

But its more critical in that if it was 8:56pm, and Amanda was talking to Popovic at 8:42pm...then its highly unlikely she was at the cottage committing murder within 13minutes.

The judges and jury have concluded that Knox and Sollecito - in this trial - and Rudy - in his short track trial - are guilty of murder. If you go back in time to the legal discussion, I believe that Yummi and others explained how this legal guilt does not mean necessarily that one or the other "pushed" the knife, but that they were all involved in the immediate dynamics which led up to Meredith's murder, and they could have done something to prevent it (that is reducing a big explanation into a few words).

Yes, it would be appreciated for the sake of greater clarity and further closure for the Kerchers in the understanding of what happened on 1 November 2007 if each of the murder convicts (pending appeal) could step up and finally tell the courts what they know.

However, even if they don't, they have been found legally guilty of the charge of murder (again, pending appeal).

Edda has being saying Time Of Death was 9.30 p.m., now you're saying it's 8:56 p.m. I bet we'll have a FOA scout on here over the next day with some explanation of how the TOD was 8:30, moments after Meredith left her friends ( ... maybe even before ... YES, Anne Bremner !!! the new analysis: the English girls are the murderers!!!! It all fits!!!!) .

It would be funny if it weren't so tragic, brutal and murderous.
===================================================

As for Sra. Nara's hearing ability, do you think she didn't hear someone pounding up the metal stair?

Why do you mention concrete? ... (maybe FOA is claiming on their pages now that Meredith was killed on the lower internal floor of the concrete carpark, it wouldn't be the first time they have manipulated evidence)


Last edited by Kermit on Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Lori Berenson May Be Lesson for Amanda Knox
Jailed at 26, NY Woman Creates New Life As U.S. Appeals Fail to Free Her
By SUSAN DONALDSON JAMES
Dec. 8, 2009


ABC NEWS

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THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

"Lori Berenson May Be Lesson for Amanda Knox
Jailed at 26, NY Woman Creates New Life As U.S. Appeals Fail to Free Her
By SUSAN DONALDSON JAMES
Dec. 8, 2009 "

ABC NEWS

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Johnnie wrote:
Michael wrote:
Johnnie wrote:
Goodmorning
i have a question about this. tia

(Filomena Romanelli recalled watching her boyfriend, Marco Zaroli, and a friend, Luca Altieri, breaking into the locked bedroom where Kercher lay dead)

So that door was locked .
Was the key inside the door ?
Or was the key disappeared ?


Yes, the door was locked and the keys have never been found.


Thanks Michael !
Was there Dna on the door handle ?


No, only a stain of Meredith's blood (inside handle).

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Michael - Global unity! :)

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Tara wrote:
Michael - Global unity! :)


:)

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline The Bard


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Some beautiful new photos of Meredith from The Mirror gallery next to the Kercher's interview. I feel desperately sad for them being forced to respond to this offensive hysteria from the US Media. Is there no way they can CHECK the facts the Knoxes are spouting? Surely if people come on to a news programme and just LIE there should be some redress. I was struck by this when listening to Janet Huff saying that the Italians had 'typed something out for Amanda to sign' (lie) and that they had 'tortured' her (lie). It's outrageous that a news outlet can allow these unmediated falsehoods to be spouted without censure or even a basic journalistic checking of the facts. It's causing diplomatic tensions for goodness sake! I have never seen anything like it.

Anyway. Here are some pictures of Meredith. I can only post one at a time for some reason...


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Offline The Bard


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Another Meredith photo


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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:55 pm   Post subject: Re: GET WELL SOON !!!!!!   

Kermit wrote:
Brian S. wrote:
Dear All,

I want to make a post.

I have been incredibly ill over the last two months, I don't want to go into it. I guess it's what comes with age.

Pete, you know I've had my arguments with you but what you've done over the last few days has been incredible.

I still keep up..

Signing off now

Brian

Well, Brian, you'd better get incredibly well, and very soon, because the judge's (or judges') report will soon be out on Raffaele's and Amanda's trial, and we'll need the same analysis and explanation which you patiently gave to Micheli's report on Rudy's short-track trial.

GET WELL SOON!!
:)


I second the sentiments expressed by Kermit and others. Brian, you have been missed. Get well soon and fully. We need you!

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Offline The Bard


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

What a beautiful baby she was...


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Offline chives


Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 11:02 am

Posts: 13

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Thank you for your warm welcome and answering the lock question. Wondering still about the door: were Rudy's
bloody prints or dna found on the handles or anywhere else on the door? Are Rudy's detailed interrogations kept secret because he's accusing the other two for the actual murder?



PS. Here in Finland Amanda and co would have gotten a life sentence, but in practice for young first offenders the time in prison would be at maximum 7 years and before release they'd get unsupervised holidays ( carrying mobile phone) . Sweden is even more lenient with murderers.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Alright, someone please explain to me, how is Berenson remotely comparable to Amanda Knox or her case (aside simply from being jailed in a foreign country)? And what exactly is the 'lesson'?

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THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

chives wrote:
Thank you for your warm welcome and answering the lock question. Wondering still about the door: were Rudy's
bloody prints or dna found on the handles or anywhere else on the door? Are Rudy's detailed interrogations kept secret because he's accusing the other two for the actual murder?



PS. Here in Finland Amanda and co would have gotten a life sentence, but in practice for young first offenders the time in prison would be at maximum 7 years and before release they'd get unsupervised holidays ( carrying mobile phone) . Sweden is even more lenient with murderers.


No, nothing from Rudy was found on the door. Ridy's detailed interrogations are not published because his trial was held behind closed doors and Amanda and Raffaele's lawyers had them rulled as inadmissible in their trial. Aside from that, I don't think interrogation transcripripts are published anyway. Rather, I think they are simply handed out to journalists and experts who are permitted to quote from them, but you won't get the whole thing.

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"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline observer


Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:36 pm

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

The Bard wrote:
Another Meredith photo


The one of her in the black top - a stunner!
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Offline observer


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Michael wrote:
Alright, someone please explain to me, how is Berenson remotely comparable to Amanda Knox or her case (aside simply from being jailed in a foreign country)? And what exactly is the 'lesson'?


I guess the point being made is that although some in the States might wage a well supported campaign to get someone in jail abroad released, it ain't that easy?
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Offline Lancelotti


Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:09 pm

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

anne wrote:
malcolm wrote:
Nell wrote:
It looks like the media in Germany are not much better than in the US. It would have been good if they would have informed themselves better before publishing this article.

Well, now we know where butters was getting his info.


Just wanna say that i don't think its right to say THE german media.
This is one author and he seems not have done his work proberly.
I've never heard of him before. The Spiegel has very good court speacialists but i guess they are busy with trials going on in their own country.
Spiegel is a very good magazine but the information given in this article is the work of one person. All other news i have seen about the case in germany were neutral.
(And i don't count smear-papers like BILD (Springer-Press) in it, people who read that don't deserve any better)
And saying media in germany is not better than in the US...wow, thats far fetched and a bit offending.



Actually, it is a well-written, accurate article. Or can anyone spot any mistakes in it?
Nobody has to agree with somebody else’s opinion, but it doesn’t mean the other person hasn’t done their research properly. What matters is that they get the facts right.
Alexander Smoltczyk is a journalist based in Italy. He has followed the case from the beginning.
link to the article
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Offline MikeMCSG


Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:14 am

Posts: 207

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Tara wrote:
Only one mainstream Seattle news station, KOMO4 (ABC), made mention of Amanda Knox this morning. Something about how she asked to work in the laundry at the prison and also continue her education by taking some correspondence courses through the UW.

In the meantime, Knox can hone her laundry and folding skills enough to perhaps work at a drycleaners when she gets out in the distant future.

Next.


Mmm, no tantrums or hunger strikes then. It does seem like Amanda is a bit ahead of her parents in accepting her situation.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Lancelotti wrote:
anne wrote:
malcolm wrote:
Nell wrote:
It looks like the media in Germany are not much better than in the US. It would have been good if they would have informed themselves better before publishing this article.

Well, now we know where butters was getting his info.


Just wanna say that i don't think its right to say THE german media.
This is one author and he seems not have done his work proberly.
I've never heard of him before. The Spiegel has very good court speacialists but i guess they are busy with trials going on in their own country.
Spiegel is a very good magazine but the information given in this article is the work of one person. All other news i have seen about the case in germany were neutral.
(And i don't count smear-papers like BILD (Springer-Press) in it, people who read that don't deserve any better)
And saying media in germany is not better than in the US...wow, thats far fetched and a bit offending.



Actually, it is a well-written, accurate article. Or can anyone spot any mistakes in it?
Nobody has to agree with somebody else’s opinion, but it doesn’t mean the other person hasn’t done their research properly. What matters is that they get the facts right.
Alexander Smoltczyk is a journalist based in Italy. He has followed the case from the beginning.
link to the article


Has he written other articles? If so, have they been just factual reporting or opinion pieces like this one? Just curious. The main point of an opinion piece is not to present factual information, but rather to express a viewpoint and persuade readers. In such writing, it is often more interesting to observe what details have been omitted. Personally, I doubt this piece is going to advance anyone's knowledge or change the game.

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Offline IRONSIDE


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

ANORAK comment on the Knox case...along with 42 photographs .


http://www.anorak.co.uk/233048/media/me ... l?pid=2673
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Offline Yummi


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Quote:
To accept Mignini's theory is only one choice.
Just because it was voted most likley, doesn't mean it is fact. Much of it is very speculative.


To be clear, Mignini's story was not voted "most likely". The court didn't vote on Mignini's story. But some parts of the prosecution's story and allegation of facts were found true beyond reasonable doubt, facts which are enough to pronuonce a guilty verdict.
What is the most likely story or what are the main possibilities, this is the court that will write it down in their sentence report. The court maybe will write about the "most likely" story, and above all why they rule off any possibility of innocence for the accused.
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Offline fine


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:29 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Free Amanda vehicle window stickers now for sale on ebay.....



"This window stickers are free and any money received will be donated to the Amanda Knox legal fund. Monies received in excess of their legal bills will be donated to Raffaele, then Meredith Kercher's family. We are all witness to money made by the jokers gossip in his newspapers, televisions stations from advertisements. May God bless all of us! Be careful in your travels, regardless who you are, or where you are from.

On Dec-06-09 at 14:26:47 PST, seller added the following information:

Before the New Year I am going to auction a chance to win a $200 prize for the best home made fiction video that closely resembles Perugia's Borgia descendant Giuliano Mignini. Details to come soon........" cgi.ebay.com

/////
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Offline chives


Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 11:02 am

Posts: 13

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Michael wrote:
chives wrote:
Thank you for your warm welcome and answering the lock question. Wondering still about the door: were Rudy's
bloody prints or dna found on the handles or anywhere else on the door? Are Rudy's detailed interrogations kept secret because he's accusing the other two for the actual murder?



PS. Here in Finland Amanda and co would have gotten a life sentence, but in practice for young first offenders the time in prison would be at maximum 7 years and before release they'd get unsupervised holidays ( carrying mobile phone) . Sweden is even more lenient with murderers.


No, nothing from Rudy was found on the door. Ridy's detailed interrogations are not published because his trial was held behind closed doors and Amanda and Raffaele's lawyers had them rulled as inadmissible in their trial. Aside from that, I don't think interrogation transcripripts are published anyway. Rather, I think they are simply handed out to journalists and experts who are permitted to quote from them, but you won't get the whole thing.


Thanks! Wouldn't that prove that Rudy wasn't the one who locked the door ? I hope that Rudy at least would tell the whole truth or has he something to gain by lying? Money from Sollecito? Threat from drug lords?
In his prison diary Rudy seems to have some sort of guilty memories of not helping Meredith, maybe he has a conscience.
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Offline Yummi


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Quote:
Actually, it is a well-written, accurate article. Or can anyone spot any mistakes in it?


No mistake, but the fact that doesn't give any factual information about the case. Nor any informed opinion, except the a quote from an insignificant outsider and false commenter like Kelly. This article is "well written" but is meant to be just entertainement.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

fine wrote:
Free Amanda vehicle window stickers now for sale on ebay.....



"This window stickers are free and any money received will be donated to the Amanda Knox legal fund. Monies received in excess of their legal bills will be donated to Raffaele, then Meredith Kercher's family. We are all witness to money made by the jokers gossip in his newspapers, televisions stations from advertisements. May God bless all of us! Be careful in your travels, regardless who you are, or where you are from.

On Dec-06-09 at 14:26:47 PST, seller added the following information:

Before the New Year I am going to auction a chance to win a $200 prize for the best home made fiction video that closely resembles Perugia's Borgia descendant Giuliano Mignini. Details to come soon........" cgi.ebay.com

/////


Is this for real? And Meredith's family comes last? I guess that's par for the course.

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Offline Lancelotti


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Has he written other articles? If so, have they been just factual reporting or opinion pieces like this one? Just curious.


12/02/2009
Courtroom Drama in Perugia
Verdict Due in Meredith Kercher Murder Trial
By Alexander Smoltczyk in Perugia, Italy

in this one he did get a detail wrong though (blood on the knife)
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Offline Lancelotti


Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:09 pm

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Yummi wrote:
Quote:
Actually, it is a well-written, accurate article. Or can anyone spot any mistakes in it?


No mistake, but the fact that doesn't give any factual information about the case. Nor any informed opinion, except the a quote from an insignificant outsider and false commenter like Kelly. This article is "well written" but is meant to be just entertainement.


it's a typical spiegel article.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Fine wrote:
Before the New Year I am going to auction a chance to win a $200 prize for the best home made fiction video that closely resembles Perugia's Borgia descendant Giuliano Mignini. Details to come soon........"


Well, after all, fiction is the FOA's speciality. Stick to what you know and all that.

What 'I' know, is neither Raffaele or Meredith's family will ever see a penny from any of the donations received in return for 'stickers'.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

So Lancelotti, when will you be buying your window sticker?

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Offline Yummi


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Quote:
Before the New Year I am going to auction a chance to win a $200 prize for the best home made fiction video that closely resembles Perugia's Borgia descendant Giuliano Mignini. Details to come soon........"


From the same advertisement site, a quote from the stickers salesman expressing his idea :

(.... If we look at the history of Italy, Arba and Britain it's obvious many have the mob mentality, even against other county lands in their own country. This is the result of too much inbreeding of a limited gene pool. This continued inbreeding means that deleterious genes become widespread in a limited group of individuals. The people loses there ability to reason, think and understand human mortality with sanity. They enjoy with amusement as they destory each others culture, lives and countries. Then they wonder and ask why is the world is falling apart. (...)
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Offline MikeMCSG


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Yummi - are the appeal courts resricted to considering verdict and sentence on the original charges or have they the option of substituting a lesser offence as well ?
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Offline anne


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Lancelotti wrote:
anne wrote:
malcolm wrote:
Nell wrote:
It looks like the media in Germany are not much better than in the US. It would have been good if they would have informed themselves better before publishing this article.

Well, now we know where butters was getting his info.


Just wanna say that i don't think its right to say THE german media.
This is one author and he seems not have done his work proberly.
I've never heard of him before. The Spiegel has very good court speacialists but i guess they are busy with trials going on in their own country.
Spiegel is a very good magazine but the information given in this article is the work of one person. All other news i have seen about the case in germany were neutral.
(And i don't count smear-papers like BILD (Springer-Press) in it, people who read that don't deserve any better)
And saying media in germany is not better than in the US...wow, thats far fetched and a bit offending.



Actually, it is a well-written, accurate article. Or can anyone spot any mistakes in it?
Nobody has to agree with somebody else’s opinion, but it doesn’t mean the other person hasn’t done their research properly. What matters is that they get the facts right.
Alexander Smoltczyk is a journalist based in Italy. He has followed the case from the beginning.
link to the article


Has he written other articles? If so, have they been just factual reporting or opinion pieces like this one? Just curious. The main point of an opinion piece is not to present factual information, but rather to express a viewpoint and persuade readers. In such writing, it is often more interesting to observe what details have been omitted. Personally, I doubt this piece is going to advance anyone's knowledge or change the game.


As far as i know he wrote three pieces about the trial. The one i translated, the one just mentioned and this one:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/eur ... 06,00.html

He had a good start but seems to have lost it.
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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:47 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

fine wrote:
Free Amanda vehicle window stickers now for sale on ebay.....



"This window stickers are free and any money received will be donated to the Amanda Knox legal fund. Monies received in excess of their legal bills will be donated to Raffaele, then Meredith Kercher's family. We are all witness to money made by the jokers gossip in his newspapers, televisions stations from advertisements. May God bless all of us! Be careful in your travels, regardless who you are, or where you are from.

On Dec-06-09 at 14:26:47 PST, seller added the following information:

Before the New Year I am going to auction a chance to win a $200 prize for the best home made fiction video that closely resembles Perugia's Borgia descendant Giuliano Mignini. Details to come soon........" cgi.ebay.com

/////


Too MUCH! I see the seller in Texas cannot decide if shipping is free or you need to send a self addressed stamped envelope to get your $.01 window sticker.

It prompted me to check another site, CRAIGSLIST and it seems people are opining there as well.

CRAIGSLIST SEATTLE

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Offline Yummi


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Quote:
it's a typical spiegel article.


No, it is a typical Spiegel weekly feed, or a Spiegel-Online page.
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Offline Yummi


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

" Yummi - are the appeal courts resricted to considering verdict and sentence on the original charges or have they the option of substituting a lesser offence as well ? "

The Appeal court has a total sovereign power exactly like the first degree court. But the charge is made by the previous verdict.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Below, letters to the editor of the Seattle Times, under the title Not a senator’s place to degrade a nation’s legal system:

Editor, The Times:

The recent statement on the Amanda Knox guilty verdict released by Sen. Maria Cantwell was insulting to all the citizens of Italy — our NATO ally — as well as to Americans of Italian descent [“Knox support network: friends, lawyers, scientists and a senator,” page one, Dec. 5].

She was clearly out of line to make them, as I suspect they were based largely or entirely on information provided to her by the Knox family. Her remarks were arrogant, to the point that she basically said Knox is innocent.

Knox may be, but the senator is simply not in a position to know, and she should take better measure of the available facts before making provocative public statements that disparage the legal system of an entire nation.

Too bad Sen. Cantwell wasn’t around when two Italians by the names of Sacco and Vanzetti were unjustly tried and executed in 1927, here in America. I’m certain she would have spoken out against the flaws in the justice system on display in this country. Or would she?

— Dan Possumato, Portland, Ore.

Boycotting all things Italian

I think it would be highly appropriate for Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton to converse with Sen. Maria Cantwell regarding the transfer of Amanda Knox to the U.S. to serve her prison term while her appeal undergoes the glacially slow injustice system that is Italy’s.

For my part, however, I have begun boycotting Italian products, starting with Perugina chocolate and San Pellegrino, both of which I like. I will not buy them or any Italian cheese, wine, or other products as long as Knox endures incarceration as a consequence of the farcical trial just concluded.

I urge others to join me in getting the attention of the Italians who were overjoyed by Prosecutor Giuliano Mignini’s successful vendetta against Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, whose cases probably should never have been brought to trial.

— Earl J. Bell, Seattle

Meredith Kercher and family are the only victims

Isn’t it time to show some balance in this matter [“Knox ‘railroaded from day one,’ ” News, Dec. 5]? The victims, the only victims, are Meredith Kercher and her family. The murderers are found to be Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito. Neither deserve our sympathy, although compassion shown to their families is in order.

The attempts by Sen. Maria Cantwell and others to portray Italy and Italian justice as biased and unfit to try this case are highly offensive and should cease at once.

Knox and her family should be thankful she committed her crime in Italy and not in the U.S.

She can expect to be released from prison in around 15 years if she behaves well. She’ll be less than 40 years old. Her sentence here in the states likely would have been much harsher.

The Seattle Times would do its readers a service if it carried comment from Britain and Italy. The views of the rest of the world would be informative. We do not need to read further articles attempting to deny this crime.

— Bruce Bailey, Seattle

Why are we defending Amanda Knox?

My daughter shared a two-bedroom apartment in college freshman year with two girls who partied and brought boys home on a nightly basis. Out of fear for her safety, my daughter not only purchased a lock for her bedroom, but spent most nights squeezing into a single bed with a friend because she was too afraid to sleep in her own apartment.

This continued until one night a drunk male college student punched through an apartment wall with his fist and attempted to sexually assault my daughter’s fourth roommate returning from band practice. After my husband and I met with the dormitory authorities, nothing was done and our daughter had to change dormitories during finals.

Reading about the Amanda Knox case, I am thankful my daughter was not hurt, or worse. It seems Washington is trying to defend Knox just because she is from Seattle, while ignoring the brutal reality that a gruesome act was committed to a young, innocent life, plus the horrendous loss to Meredith Kercher’s family.

So many parents might have done better to provide direction in their children’s lives versus throwing money and influence after the fact. I shudder to think my daughter might have suffered a similar fate.

— Anchi Miller, Kirkland

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Tara wrote:
fine wrote:
Free Amanda vehicle window stickers now for sale on ebay.....



"This window stickers are free and any money received will be donated to the Amanda Knox legal fund. Monies received in excess of their legal bills will be donated to Raffaele, then Meredith Kercher's family. We are all witness to money made by the jokers gossip in his newspapers, televisions stations from advertisements. May God bless all of us! Be careful in your travels, regardless who you are, or where you are from.

On Dec-06-09 at 14:26:47 PST, seller added the following information:

Before the New Year I am going to auction a chance to win a $200 prize for the best home made fiction video that closely resembles Perugia's Borgia descendant Giuliano Mignini. Details to come soon........" cgi.ebay.com

/////


Too MUCH! I see the seller in Texas cannot decide if shipping is free or you need to send a self addressed stamped envelope to get your $.01 window sticker.

It prompted me to check another site, CRAIGSLIST and it seems people are opining there as well.

CRAIGSLIST SEATTLE


Now that Frank Sfarzo has been forced to monitor his comments, I can think of a couple of people who may have been forced to find another place to vent.

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Offline Lancelotti


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Hartelijk dank, Michael! window sticker....phhhhhhhhhhhh

yummi: the style I meant




anne wrote:
As far as i know he wrote three pieces about the trial. The one i translated, the one just mentioned and this one:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/eur ... 06,00.html

He had a good start but seems to have lost it.


What is it you didn't like about it? His conclusion? I don't think that's important, or at least I am not interested in other people's conclusion. I just want those who write articles to get the facts right. I can draw my own conclusion.
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Offline MikeMCSG


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Yummi wrote:
" Yummi - are the appeal courts resricted to considering verdict and sentence on the original charges or have they the option of substituting a lesser offence as well ? "

The Appeal court has a total sovereign power exactly like the first degree court. But the charge is made by the previous verdict.


Thanks. What I was getting at is could Sollecito make a partial admission and change the charge to accessory after the fact (or something) ? That would be a real tempter for him and his family and would stuff Amanda. Once he admitted being there she'd have to follow suit.
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Offline anne


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Lancelotti wrote:
Hartelijk dank, Michael! window sticker....phhhhhhhhhhhh

yummi: the style I meant




anne wrote:
As far as i know he wrote three pieces about the trial. The one i translated, the one just mentioned and this one:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/eur ... 06,00.html

He had a good start but seems to have lost it.


What is it you didn't like about it? His conclusion? I don't think that's important, or at least I am not interested in other people's conclusion. I just want those who write articles to get the facts right. I can draw my own conclusion.


Why do you even bother to ask me if you are not interested in other peoples conclusions anyway? I dont think that this author is of such importance to discuss it for hours. I just wanted to say that he is not the media of germany.
And just for the record, i fully agree with Skep on this one. Its an opinion piece.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Yummi wrote:
Quote:
Before the New Year I am going to auction a chance to win a $200 prize for the best home made fiction video that closely resembles Perugia's Borgia descendant Giuliano Mignini. Details to come soon........"


From the same advertisement site, a quote from the stickers salesman expressing his idea :

(.... If we look at the history of Italy, Arba and Britain it's obvious many have the mob mentality, even against other county lands in their own country. This is the result of too much inbreeding of a limited gene pool. This continued inbreeding means that deleterious genes become widespread in a limited group of individuals. The people loses there ability to reason, think and understand human mortality with sanity. They enjoy with amusement as they destory each others culture, lives and countries. Then they wonder and ask why is the world is falling apart. (...)


Aside from the fact that he or she is grammar impaired, the ideas here are very confused. These kinds of arguments were prevalent a century or so ago, when the massive influx of immigrants to America frightened many earlier immigrants and resulted in xenophobia. With only a limited understanding of genetics, some scientists with a political agenda actually encouraged this kind of thinking. Indeed, for a brief period some people in mental care facilities, who had been diagnosed as feeble-minded, were given operations to prevent them from breeding, the idea being that eventually stupidity could be bred out of the "gene pool". Anyone interested can look at the history of eugenics. It is fascinating and quite frightening.

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Offline Ginny


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Sorry for the random interjection here but I was explaining the brief outline of the whole trial to my mother in law on Friday night and I came across something I hadn't asked myself before- no doubt someone here will know!
In Rudy's version of events he claims to have seen the two perpetrators run off and finding Meredith bleeding- he attempted to stop the bleeding with towels and then got scared and ran off.
How does he explain the cover over Meredith and the locked door- did he claim to lock her door and cover her up? Or does he believe the perpetrators came back and cleaned up after he'd ran off? I take it he didn't take responsibilty for stealing the phones?
I guess I haven't asked many questions of Rudy's story coz I always believed Raf and Amanda were to blame but thinking about it there are a lot of gaps I'm curious about.

I am so happy about the guilty verdict btw- the sooner the report comes out and silences the protestors the better, God bless the Kercher family.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

anne wrote:
Lancelotti wrote:
Hartelijk dank, Michael! window sticker....phhhhhhhhhhhh

yummi: the style I meant




anne wrote:
As far as i know he wrote three pieces about the trial. The one i translated, the one just mentioned and this one:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/eur ... 06,00.html

He had a good start but seems to have lost it.


What is it you didn't like about it? His conclusion? I don't think that's important, or at least I am not interested in other people's conclusion. I just want those who write articles to get the facts right. I can draw my own conclusion.


Why do you even bother to ask me if you are not interested in other peoples conclusions anyway? I dont think that this author is of such importance to discuss it for hours. I just wanted to say that he is not the media of germany.
And just for the record, i fully agree with Skep on this one. Its an opinion piece.


It looks like this is a non-starter, at least for now. Maybe people who are currently offline will pick it up later and dissect it.

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Offline GreenWyvern


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Tara wrote:
Only one mainstream Seattle news station, KOMO4 (ABC), made mention of Amanda Knox this morning.

The Google News graph showing the number of articles with "Amanda Knox" is interesting.

It looks like the fuss is already starting to die down. It won't last long, since nothing new or newsworthy is going to happen for quite a while.


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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Yummi wrote:
Quote:
To accept Mignini's theory is only one choice.
Just because it was voted most likley, doesn't mean it is fact. Much of it is very speculative.


To be clear, Mignini's story was not voted "most likely". The court didn't vote on Mignini's story. But some parts of the prosecution's story and allegation of facts were found true beyond reasonable doubt, facts which are enough to pronuonce a guilty verdict.
What is the most likely story or what are the main possibilities, this is the court that will write it down in their sentence report. The court maybe will write about the "most likely" story, and above all why they rule off any possibility of innocence for the accused.


Again, we will have to wait and read the reasoning. The judges and jurors made a unanimous decision based on the body of evidence presented to them. The prosecution made its case based on that body of evidence. The defense - according to many observers I would call neutral - did not do a particularly good job of countering the evidence or the prosecution's case.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

GreenWyvern wrote:
Tara wrote:
Only one mainstream Seattle news station, KOMO4 (ABC), made mention of Amanda Knox this morning.

The Google News graph showing the number of articles with "Amanda Knox" is interesting.

It looks like the fuss is already starting to die down. It won't last long, since nothing new or newsworthy is going to happen for quite a while.


I think last night's Larry King appearance was a last gasp. Perhaps we'll see one or two more thoughtful, expost facto analyses of the Cantwell episode. Barbie Nadeau was on CNN last night (along with a former State Dept. official and Lisa Bloom). Nadeau pointed out that US consular representatives have been present throughout the trial and not just last week, to monitor proceedings for fairness. And the former State Dept. guy said, with heavy irony, that at most the result might be to declare this part of Italy a hot spot for US travelers. This is something that is normally done in war-torn regions. So it is kind of laughable.

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Offline bucketoftea


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Brian, sending you hugs (unless you don't like that kind of thing; in which case please accept this warm handshake :) ) You have been missed and I want to thank you, too, for your brilliant contributions. I will be watching for any news of your progress. :)
Love,
Bucket
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

IRONSIDE wrote:
ANORAK comment on the Knox case...along with 42 photographs .


http://www.anorak.co.uk/233048/media/me ... l?pid=2673



Thanks for this link. It provides a very good media coverage wrap-up. And how about this?

Quote:
The Entertaining Murder

John Blake is publishing a book by true crime author Gary King that will tell “the whole story of the twisted murder case” behind the death of British student Meredith Kercher. The Murder of Meredith is due out in January as a paperback priced £7.99. - Bookseller


He may get out of the starting blocks faster than the Cook!

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Offline jfk1191


Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:46 am

Posts: 286

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:35 pm   Post subject: Re: Synchronise watches to F.S.T. (FOA Standard Time)   

Kermit wrote:
jfk1191 wrote:
capealadin wrote:
Hi, Emerald, You could be right, but I just feel that she was so jealous of Meredith, what with taking her job, taking her to task about her boyfriends and cleaning (skills) and just being intimidated with her european savoir faire, and the attack seemed so personal, so much anger... nothing stolen, Rudi and Raffaele didn't know Meredith well enough to inflict such a frenzied personal attack. Feel free to correct me, i am open to all opinions, because I couldn't hurt a "spider". lol


To accept Mignini's theory is only one choice.
Just because it was voted most likley, doesn't mean it is fact. Much of it is very speculative.

Rudys story, most believe, has some truth mixed in with the lies.
What if Amanda was never in the room? What if only Rudy is all over the bedroom because he was the only one, and a Raffaele with a red/white cap was the murderer?

When do you think she was attacked is a point I am very "stuck" or unclear about.

I think in my theory Meredith was attacked at 8:56pm when her cellphone call was oddly cutoff. Maybe it was the attack moment, maybe it wasn't?

But its just as viable a thought as 11:30pm because some 70yr old women can hear through cement 70 meters away.

But its more critical in that if it was 8:56pm, and Amanda was talking to Popovic at 8:42pm...then its highly unlikely she was at the cottage committing murder within 13minutes.

The judges and jury have concluded that Knox and Sollecito - in this trial - and Rudy - in his short track trial - are guilty of murder. If you go back in time to the legal discussion, I believe that Yummi and others explained how this legal guilt does not mean necessarily that one or the other "pushed" the knife, but that they were all involved in the immediate dynamics which led up to Meredith's murder, and they could have done something to prevent it (that is reducing a big explanation into a few words).

Yes, it would be appreciated for the sake of greater clarity and further closure for the Kerchers in the understanding of what happened on 1 November 2007 if each of the murder convicts (pending appeal) could step up and finally tell the courts what they know.

However, even if they don't, they have been found legally guilty of the charge of murder (again, pending appeal).

Edda has being saying Time Of Death was 9.30 p.m., now you're saying it's 8:56 p.m. I bet we'll have a FOA scout on here over the next day with some explanation of how the TOD was 8:30, moments after Meredith left her friends ( ... maybe even before ... YES, Anne Bremner !!! the new analysis: the English girls are the murderers!!!! It all fits!!!!) .

It would be funny if it weren't so tragic, brutal and murderous.
===================================================

As for Sra. Nara's hearing ability, do you think she didn't hear someone pounding up the metal stair?

Why do you mention concrete? ... (maybe FOA is claiming on their pages now that Meredith was killed on the lower internal floor of the concrete carpark, it wouldn't be the first time they have manipulated evidence)


I think the "attack" was possibly at 8:56pm, when Merediths call to her mom was cut-off.
No one will ever know for sure, but then its odd in Rudy's story he puts himself at the cottage exactly at this time....not 10:00, not 11, not 5pm...at 9pm Rudy placed himself at the cottage, in his own words. At 8:56pm Merediths call was interrupted and sadly, never made again.


As for Nara, the Elderly, the cement/concrete reference was referring to the walls of the cottage, possibly closed doors and unbroken windows, with a second of a female scream, the sound traveling thru the walls, through the trees, over the road through the car park, over the car park, through more cement and glass to Nara's ears.
This is what Micheli speaks of as impoortant, I disagree.
In Micheli's report, Nara mentions going to bed at 9:30pm, in a couple hours she awoke and heard this. Very unlikely she heard a scream at 11:30 coming from a bedroom in the cottage. Why unlikely? audio & physics in short.

Time of Death is another matter, I don't know either. It could be much later, or very soon.

I was speaking of the initial attack at 8:56pm, and think its very likely the attack happened then.

When do you think the attack occurred? And based off what piece of evidence?

Amanda and Raffaele were at RS's apartment at at least 8:42 per the witness Popovic.
With pc activity even later, maybe 9:10pm.
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Offline Ginny


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Quote:
IRONSIDE wrote:
ANORAK comment on the Knox case...along with 42 photographs .


http://www.anorak.co.uk/233048/media/me ... l?pid=2673


Who is Guiseppe Setola and when was he arrested in connection to Meredith's murder (pictures 8-11, 14-16) in the above link.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:49 pm   Post subject: Re: Synchronise watches to F.S.T. (FOA Standard Time)   

jfk1191 wrote:
Kermit wrote:
jfk1191 wrote:
capealadin wrote:
Hi, Emerald, You could be right, but I just feel that she was so jealous of Meredith, what with taking her job, taking her to task about her boyfriends and cleaning (skills) and just being intimidated with her european savoir faire, and the attack seemed so personal, so much anger... nothing stolen, Rudi and Raffaele didn't know Meredith well enough to inflict such a frenzied personal attack. Feel free to correct me, i am open to all opinions, because I couldn't hurt a "spider". lol


To accept Mignini's theory is only one choice.
Just because it was voted most likley, doesn't mean it is fact. Much of it is very speculative.

Rudys story, most believe, has some truth mixed in with the lies.
What if Amanda was never in the room? What if only Rudy is all over the bedroom because he was the only one, and a Raffaele with a red/white cap was the murderer?

When do you think she was attacked is a point I am very "stuck" or unclear about.

I think in my theory Meredith was attacked at 8:56pm when her cellphone call was oddly cutoff. Maybe it was the attack moment, maybe it wasn't?

But its just as viable a thought as 11:30pm because some 70yr old women can hear through cement 70 meters away.

But its more critical in that if it was 8:56pm, and Amanda was talking to Popovic at 8:42pm...then its highly unlikely she was at the cottage committing murder within 13minutes.

The judges and jury have concluded that Knox and Sollecito - in this trial - and Rudy - in his short track trial - are guilty of murder. If you go back in time to the legal discussion, I believe that Yummi and others explained how this legal guilt does not mean necessarily that one or the other "pushed" the knife, but that they were all involved in the immediate dynamics which led up to Meredith's murder, and they could have done something to prevent it (that is reducing a big explanation into a few words).

Yes, it would be appreciated for the sake of greater clarity and further closure for the Kerchers in the understanding of what happened on 1 November 2007 if each of the murder convicts (pending appeal) could step up and finally tell the courts what they know.

However, even if they don't, they have been found legally guilty of the charge of murder (again, pending appeal).

Edda has being saying Time Of Death was 9.30 p.m., now you're saying it's 8:56 p.m. I bet we'll have a FOA scout on here over the next day with some explanation of how the TOD was 8:30, moments after Meredith left her friends ( ... maybe even before ... YES, Anne Bremner !!! the new analysis: the English girls are the murderers!!!! It all fits!!!!) .

It would be funny if it weren't so tragic, brutal and murderous.
===================================================

As for Sra. Nara's hearing ability, do you think she didn't hear someone pounding up the metal stair?

Why do you mention concrete? ... (maybe FOA is claiming on their pages now that Meredith was killed on the lower internal floor of the concrete carpark, it wouldn't be the first time they have manipulated evidence)


I think the "attack" was possibly at 8:56pm, when Merediths call to her mom was cut-off.No one will ever know for sure, but then its odd in Rudy's story he puts himself at the cottage exactly at this time....not 10:00, not 11, not 5pm...at 9pm Rudy placed himself at the cottage, in his own words. At 8:56pm Merediths call was interrupted and sadly, never made again.


As for Nara, the Elderly, the cement/concrete reference was referring to the walls of the cottage, possibly closed doors and unbroken windows, with a second of a female scream, the sound traveling thru the walls, through the trees, over the road through the car park, over the car park, through more cement and glass to Nara's ears.
This is what Micheli speaks of as impoortant, I disagree.
In Micheli's report, Nara mentions going to bed at 9:30pm, in a couple hours she awoke and heard this. Very unlikely she heard a scream at 11:30 coming from a bedroom in the cottage. Why unlikely? audio & physics in short.

Time of Death is another matter, I don't know either. It could be much later, or very soon.

I was speaking of the initial attack at 8:56pm, and think its very likely the attack happened then.

When do you think the attack occurred? And based off what piece of evidence?

Amanda and Raffaele were at RS's apartment at at least 8:42 per the witness Popovic.
With pc activity even later, maybe 9:10pm.


It is very odd that Meredith's mother did not try and call her back or worry, don't you think? And I see no compelling reason to think that RS's defense team's effort to push back TOD to as early as possible should be accepted. No evidence of it was offered as far as I can tell.

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Offline indie


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Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:15 am

Posts: 383

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Brian S. wrote:
Dear All,

I want to make a post.

I have been incredibly ill over the last two months, I don't want to go into it. I guess it's what comes with age.

Pete, you know I've had my arguments with you but what you've done over the last few days has been incredible.

I still keep up..

Signing off now

Brian


Dear Brian,

We all sure do miss you buddy! There is NOTHING like reading a post from Brian S. You are the master of keeping us focused on the mission and giving us new ways of looking at the evidence.

I'll be saying a few prayers for your recovery. And your Fast Pete comment brought a smile to my heart. Honestly, those were the days my friend. I will join you in commending Fast Pete for his extreme diligence and hard work.

Take care and we are so happy that you are able to keep up. Crap even keeping up takes time and energy!

Hugs from across the pond,
indie
hugz-)
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Offline jodyodyo


User avatar


Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:02 am

Posts: 257

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Dear Brian,

Sending my thanks too for all your efforts at bringing the truth to light. I've often thought of you, especially at the time of the verdict.

Sending you love, light and blessings from Seattle,

Jody
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Offline Kermit


User avatar


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:37 am

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:11 pm   Post subject: Re: Synchronise watches to F.S.T. (FOA Standard Time)   

jfk1191 wrote:
Kermit wrote:
jfk1191 wrote:
capealadin wrote:
Hi, Emerald, You could be right, but I just feel that she was so jealous of Meredith, what with taking her job, taking her to task about her boyfriends and cleaning (skills) and just being intimidated with her european savoir faire, and the attack seemed so personal, so much anger... nothing stolen, Rudi and Raffaele didn't know Meredith well enough to inflict such a frenzied personal attack. Feel free to correct me, i am open to all opinions, because I couldn't hurt a "spider". lol


To accept Mignini's theory is only one choice.
Just because it was voted most likley, doesn't mean it is fact. Much of it is very speculative.

Rudys story, most believe, has some truth mixed in with the lies.
What if Amanda was never in the room? What if only Rudy is all over the bedroom because he was the only one, and a Raffaele with a red/white cap was the murderer?

When do you think she was attacked is a point I am very "stuck" or unclear about.

I think in my theory Meredith was attacked at 8:56pm when her cellphone call was oddly cutoff. Maybe it was the attack moment, maybe it wasn't?

But its just as viable a thought as 11:30pm because some 70yr old women can hear through cement 70 meters away.

But its more critical in that if it was 8:56pm, and Amanda was talking to Popovic at 8:42pm...then its highly unlikely she was at the cottage committing murder within 13minutes.

The judges and jury have concluded that Knox and Sollecito - in this trial - and Rudy - in his short track trial - are guilty of murder. If you go back in time to the legal discussion, I believe that Yummi and others explained how this legal guilt does not mean necessarily that one or the other "pushed" the knife, but that they were all involved in the immediate dynamics which led up to Meredith's murder, and they could have done something to prevent it (that is reducing a big explanation into a few words).

Yes, it would be appreciated for the sake of greater clarity and further closure for the Kerchers in the understanding of what happened on 1 November 2007 if each of the murder convicts (pending appeal) could step up and finally tell the courts what they know.

However, even if they don't, they have been found legally guilty of the charge of murder (again, pending appeal).

Edda has being saying Time Of Death was 9.30 p.m., now you're saying it's 8:56 p.m. I bet we'll have a FOA scout on here over the next day with some explanation of how the TOD was 8:30, moments after Meredith left her friends ( ... maybe even before ... YES, Anne Bremner !!! the new analysis: the English girls are the murderers!!!! It all fits!!!!) .

It would be funny if it weren't so tragic, brutal and murderous.
===================================================

As for Sra. Nara's hearing ability, do you think she didn't hear someone pounding up the metal stair?

Why do you mention concrete? ... (maybe FOA is claiming on their pages now that Meredith was killed on the lower internal floor of the concrete carpark, it wouldn't be the first time they have manipulated evidence)


I think the "attack" was possibly at 8:56pm, when Merediths call to her mom was cut-off.
No one will ever know for sure, but then its odd in Rudy's story he puts himself at the cottage exactly at this time....not 10:00, not 11, not 5pm...at 9pm Rudy placed himself at the cottage, in his own words. At 8:56pm Merediths call was interrupted and sadly, never made again.


As for Nara, the Elderly, the cement/concrete reference was referring to the walls of the cottage, possibly closed doors and unbroken windows, with a second of a female scream, the sound traveling thru the walls, through the trees, over the road through the car park, over the car park, through more cement and glass to Nara's ears.
This is what Micheli speaks of as impoortant, I disagree.
In Micheli's report, Nara mentions going to bed at 9:30pm, in a couple hours she awoke and heard this. Very unlikely she heard a scream at 11:30 coming from a bedroom in the cottage. Why unlikely? audio & physics in short.

Time of Death is another matter, I don't know either. It could be much later, or very soon.

I was speaking of the initial attack at 8:56pm, and think its very likely the attack happened then.

When do you think the attack occurred? And based off what piece of evidence?

Amanda and Raffaele were at RS's apartment at at least 8:42 per the witness Popovic.
With pc activity even later, maybe 9:10pm.

Okay, JFK, you've repeated about one hundred times that you have a wish that the "initial" attack (are you saying you believe there were several???) occurred at 8.56 p.m.

While that makes you and FOA comfortable (because Raffaele at least - maybe not Amanda - was still at his apartment), it doesn't jive with the walk home times given by Meredith's friends, and even more bothersome, it forces you now to deal with all of the evidence in the cottage:

- Amanda's DNA mixed with Meredith's blood in different locations

- the bloody bathmat footprint which is far too small to be Rudy's

- etc. etc. etc. as per The Machine's and many other posts
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Offline jodyodyo


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Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:02 am

Posts: 257

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

GreenWyvern wrote:
Tara wrote:
Only one mainstream Seattle news station, KOMO4 (ABC), made mention of Amanda Knox this morning.

The Google News graph showing the number of articles with "Amanda Knox" is interesting.

It looks like the fuss is already starting to die down. It won't last long, since nothing new or newsworthy is going to happen for quite a while.


Thanks for that info, GW! Truthfully, I have not watched the news since the aftermath of 9/11. It became such an assault, I decided to tune out. Oh sure, I'll tune in for news of an impending snow storm or something but not a daily news watcher any longer. The aftermath of this verdict has become another assault and it too has become too much for me. Just reading the summaries can make me angry. Two nights ago when I went upstairs my husband had the local Seattle news on and I heard a quick blurb on the knox verdict. Interviews with curt and edda seated on a park bench in Perugia. Edda seemed thrilled to be telling the stories about how everyone in the prison (even the guards) was taking care of amanda. Being so kind, comforting her, bringing her warm milk, etc. (Imagine that - in a corrupt, backwater place like Italy!!) But edda really literally beamed when she said that money was "pouring in from all over the world" to them. --click-- Had to turn it off and tune her out.

On another note, I commend you fellow PMF members for your patience when answering the posts that start out, "Hi new here, just need these 35 questions answered quickly and succinctly please - no time to read thru!" The level headed, patient responses from members here blow my mind. Note to self: try to be more patient.

As I said earlier, glad that the state department is checking on the trial - it will only serve to prove that everything has been on the up and up. Now perhaps the foa will sit quietly and maybe fold some laundry in solidarity with amanda knox.
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Offline jfk1191


Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:46 am

Posts: 286

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Michael wrote:
capealadin wrote:
The one thing that bothers me is...AK and RS did an amazing clean up job.. so why is Rudi's DNA still there?


Not really. All they had to do was clean part of the floor in the corridor, the bathroom and the threshold area in Merediths room. Rudy left the evidence he did because he went touching everything with bloody hands, tried to help Meredith (at least, claimed to)...he didn't care about leaving evidence, he wasn't squeamish about getting blood on him. It's different for the others. They didn't need to clean much because they didn't leave much 'to' clean, because they stood back away from...well...the mess.


How did they stand back away from the mess? This isn't what Mignini's theory states, he places Knox in front as the main culprit and Rudy on the left and Raffaele holding her from the right (Rudys DNA was found on Merediths left sleeve), it was a multiple attack, with all holding the victim, and very physically being involved. According to Mignini Amanda plunged the knife, fatal wounds...how did she stand back?
This doesn't make sense. Great question though.

How come Rudy leaves DNA on Merediths sleeve, on Merdith, on the purse, and on the bra, shoeprints etc.. and Raffaele doesn't?

And lets remember they are cleaning up DNA supposedly, not only visible bloody footprints, but DNA was not found on Meredith or in her room of the two, only Rudy.

It could be Rudy was sloppy, only he was sloppy, RS and Ak clean.

It could be easier, imo, to believe Amanda was in the kitchen with her ears plugged, easier than believing Mignini's theory, placing her as the main attacker yet leaving no DNA in the Merediths-bedroom.

How could they be in a struggling, physical event and two leave nothing, while one leaves an abundance? Keep in mind, Mignini has AK as the main person with the knife.
This is a question many want answered.

Maybe solitary confinement and the recent verdict's of December will get someone to talk and add some more insight. My bet would be Raffaele would talk if anyone does.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:47 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

JFK wrote:

"And lets remember they are cleaning up DNA supposedly, not only visible bloody footprints, but DNA was not found on Meredith or in her room of the two, only Rudy."

So you are forgetting about Sollecito's DNA on the bra clasp then? And Knox's on the knife, with Meredith's on the groove near the tip? And while we're speculating, how about the defense expert who was dismissed or left -- the one who said Knox's DNA was also found on Meredith's bra?

Yet again, you are limiting the crime scene more than is warranted or usual. I doubt we will get anywhere this time either.

Like Kermit, I sometimes I feel like each new day just brings the same sterile debate!:)

Thanks, Jodyodyo, for your support. For people who believe the earth is flat, there is no evidence in the world that will be enough to convince them otherwise.

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Offline mulder_01


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:52 pm

Posts: 5

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Isn’t it time to show some balance in this matter [“Knox ‘railroaded from day one,’ ” News, Dec. 5]? The victims, the only victims, are Meredith Kercher and her family. The murderers are found to be Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito. Neither deserve our sympathy, although compassion shown to their families is in order.
...
Why are we defending Amanda Knox?


Oh dear...where do we start with this one. You've made yourself look very ignorant.

Do you had access to the file? I don`t think so. No one of us knows 100% if she was involved or not.
We can't just "think" that she is guilty and convict her guilty. If there is a reasonable doubt to that she "is" innocent, than she is innocent. There's nothing worse than putting an innocent person into prison and nobody should take a risk in doing so.

My heart goes out to Amanda and her family, and also Meredith's family.
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Offline Jester


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Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:24 pm

Posts: 2500

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:52 pm   Post subject: Re: Cantwell Gets Clock Cleaned   

Earthling wrote:
Exactly. It is a circumstantial case from the get-go. People have such short memories, but like you said, 20 years (and more) ago, this case would have been vigorously argued (and probably successfully) just on the circumstantial evidence, including the blood evidence (luminol and bloody prints, etc.), witness statements, alibi statements, etc. Now, it seems like if you don't have a trail of defendant's blood leading away from the crime scene (and sometimes, even if you do ... viz. OJ), in copious enough amounts that it can be tested and DNA-matched to the defendant, people refuse to believe he/she is guilty. As if no one ever murdered someone without leaving a bloody trail behind.


I guess it must be something like the "CSI TV Show Effect".

The whole situation with the Knox parents is interesting. I think the parents believed that they could not only get the whole country involved in their cause, but also that the gov't would be willing to swoop in and pluck Amanda out of jail in the "ancient culture". The initial wave of reactions was choreographed by them ... and almost every news station in the US bought into the parent's story. Only a few days later it seems that some talking heads are looking at facts. Larry King asked difficult questions, and Anderson Cooper said that nothing about the trial was irregular. I liked Clinton's response about being immersed in the Afghanistan issues ... kind of like saying she's busy.

The best question from Larry King was whether Curt agreed with the anti-Americanism statements. We know that the statements came from Curt, and he was being put on the spot to defend the claims:

KING: Do you buy any of the anti-Americanism idea, Curt?

KNOX: You know, I would like to believe that there isn't any of that. But after listening to what took place in the court of law, and, you know, the huge mistake that was made in the result of this, you know, I frankly don't know what to believe. And I -- I'll leave it there at this point.

I guess he's okay with saying things like that if Cantwell is the messenger, but when he has to take responsibility, he's not quite ready to stand behind his words. I hope Cantwell reconsiders whether she wants to be the messenger for someone that isn't willing to stand behind his own words.
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Offline nowo


Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 12:35 pm

Posts: 186

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Skep, it's from the Seattle letters/comments you posted earlier. :)
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Offline Corrina


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:20 pm

Posts: 625

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Maybe they were both wearing those cutie little swim caps that everyone in Italy just has oodles of around. Maybe they were both wearing rubber gloves so as not to leave any evidence. Hell, you tell me. Raffaele (remember him?) has a doctor for a father, and even Manda Bears brought up CSI at one point. Nobody is claiming these kids are stupid, but they aren't as smart as they thought they were, obviously. They showed up in costume and in the struggle that ensued, Meredith ripped off Amanda's mask, which is why the little murderer (I can call her that now, right? She's a convicted murderer) can't get the idea of masks out of her head. They could have wrapped themselves in cellophane. It comes in large rolls. I know, I've done it, just minus the murdering my roommate part.

Oh my. I'm talking to the house plant. Must stop.

You know what I just love? How Curt and Edda can go along for months telling everyone how good they feel about the case (not understanding any Italian) yet the only way they knew the verdict was guilty was from Amanda's reaction. And they still have the majority of the American viewing public believing their line of crap.

I wonder if Amanda or her family had the nerve to look at the Kercher family or were they too busy watching to see if the judge would meet *their* eye?

****************************************************



Brian, wishing you all the best and sad to hear of your illness.
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Offline DLW


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:41 pm

Posts: 623

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

‘After the diplomatic incident in recent days about the conviction of Amanda Knox at 26 years imprisonment for the murder of Meredith Kercher, a spokesman for the U.S. State Department Ian Kelly called "fair, open and transparent," the Italian judicial system. In fact during the press conference yesterday, a reporter from Fox had judged the Italian judicial system overview as to compare with that of Iran.’

Not sure if this video of that press conference has been posted before. It certainly was lively.

http://www.mauxa.com/ultime-news/1371-a ... cere-.html

Brian take care.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

nowo wrote:
Skep, it's from the Seattle letters/comments you posted earlier. :)


Thanks, nowo. That's what I thought. So I can just delete this comment. And I will, though it demonstrates the value of reading carefully before reacting.

I prefaced my post with the indication that these were letters to the editor. I did not write any of them. Neither did I cherry pick. I posted all of them.

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Offline PureGrit


Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2009 7:04 pm

Posts: 12

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Corrina wrote:
Maybe they were both wearing those cutie little swim caps that everyone in Italy just has oodles of around. Maybe they were both wearing rubber gloves so as not to leave any evidence.


Of course the probably "forgot" to bring enough for Rudy .... setting him up as the fall guy from the start.
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Offline bucketoftea


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Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:09 pm

Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Thanks DLW for posting that little press conference snippet. That poor man!! lol
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:15 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

mulder_01 wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Isn’t it time to show some balance in this matter [“Knox ‘railroaded from day one,’ ” News, Dec. 5]? The victims, the only victims, are Meredith Kercher and her family. The murderers are found to be Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito. Neither deserve our sympathy, although compassion shown to their families is in order.
...
Why are we defending Amanda Knox?


Oh dear...where do we start with this one. You've made yourself look very ignorant.

Do you had access to the file? I don`t think so. No one of us knows 100% if she was involved or not.
We can't just "think" that she is guilty and convict her guilty. If there is a reasonable doubt to that she "is" innocent, than she is innocent. There's nothing worse than putting an innocent person into prison and nobody should take a risk in doing so.

My heart goes out to Amanda and her family, and also Meredith's family.


Oh dear...I accidentally deleted my first response (picked up by nowo, however). As you may now realize, what you have attributed to me was actually written by someone else and published by the Seattle Times. I do happen to agree with the first three sentences -- that it is time for the local press and the national press to provide some balanced reporting. I also believe that the real victim, Meredith Kercher, has been nearly forgotten in the course of this unbalanced (in fact, unhinged) reporting. Finally, after a fair and open trial, the two mentioned in the letter were convicted of murder. It is a factual statement, so I can only agree or look really foolish. As for whether or not they deserve sympathy, I don't even want to go near that fraught terrain. I was quoted in the papers last week, however, as saying that this is a tragedy for everyone involved. I said there were no winners in a situation like this.

As for your own comment, based on the mistaken assumption that I was the author of the letters I posted, I would only say that there is actually little that we know with 100% certainty in this world. Even when a murderer confesses, there is the slight chance that it is a lie. We usually base our decisions on information that is the best we have available. I take it that is what the judges and jurors did in this as in every other case.

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Offline bucketoftea


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Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

...and I really can't get over anyone taking issue with the jurors wearing their sash of office! Talk about paranoid!
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Offline flyonwall


Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 4:17 pm

Posts: 4

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

mulder_01 wrote:
Do you had access to the file? I don`t think so. No one of us knows 100% if she was involved or not.
We can't just "think" that she is guilty and convict her guilty. If there is a reasonable doubt to that she "is" innocent, than she is innocent. There's nothing worse than putting an innocent person into prison and nobody should take a risk in doing so.


Nor can we, just because we are not 100% sure she is guilty, let her walk in the face of evidence.

I don't know how you define "reasonable doubt", but to me it means there must be a reason for doubting. It doesn't mean that the smallest amount of doubt is enough to acquit.
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Offline Corrina


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:20 pm

Posts: 625

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

bucketoftea wrote:
...and I really can't get over anyone taking issue with the jurors wearing their sash of office! Talk about paranoid!



No, BoT! It's proof, PROOF, I tell ya, of rampant anti-Americanism! They hate us for our freedom and our democracy. Not only should there have been an American flag in the courtroom during the entire proceedings, I also never noticed ANY of them wearing flag lapel pins. Further evidence that she was convicted purely on the basis of her being an American. (Raffaele who? Rudy who?)
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Offline Corrina


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:20 pm

Posts: 625

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Oh look! A new house plant! Let's not water this one, either.
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Offline The Bard


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Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:46 pm

Posts: 2486

Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

bucketoftea wrote:
...and I really can't get over anyone taking issue with the jurors wearing their sash of office! Talk about paranoid!


I think the US Media is being taken over by some kind of mass hysteria. Was that woman at the end of the clip seriously suggesting that the US administration was not intervening in the case because Italy has troops in Afghanistan???!!!

...it's getting embarrassing...I feel your pain...

_________________
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Offline Kermit


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Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:37 am

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:26 pm   Post subject: The Judges Had it Perfectly Clear   

mulder_01 wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Isn’t it time to show some balance in this matter [“Knox ‘railroaded from day one,’ ” News, Dec. 5]? The victims, the only victims, are Meredith Kercher and her family. The murderers are found to be Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito. Neither deserve our sympathy, although compassion shown to their families is in order.
...
Why are we defending Amanda Knox?


Oh dear...where do we start with this one. You've made yourself look very ignorant.

Do you had access to the file? I don`t think so. No one of us knows 100% if she was involved or not.
We can't just "think" that she is guilty and convict her guilty. If there is a reasonable doubt to that she "is" innocent, than she is innocent. There's nothing worse than putting an innocent person into prison and nobody should take a risk in doing so.

My heart goes out to Amanda and her family, and also Meredith's family.

We the posters on this board haven't had access to the whole of the investigation file.

However, the judges and jury did have full access to all documentation, evidence and testimony. The only discrepencies that we have heard of in their deliberations are not related to whether Amanda and Raffaele are guilty of involvment in the murder of Meredith Kercher (again, to be guilty of murder, you don't necessarily have to be the one who pushes the knife, but be a conscious part of the immediate dynamics which lead to the murder and not do anything about it).

Their only discrepancies were related to what degree of leniency there should be in the sentences. Forget the anti-American talking point, Raffaele was found guilty too. Forget the "Meredith's room" talking point, there's ample evidence in the bedroom, in the bathroom, in the hallway, in Filomena's room, etc. etc. to involve Amanda.

The judges and jury found Amanda and Raffaele (and previously, Rudy) all guilty of murdering Meredith. If any of the convicted murderers (pending appeal) wish to shed additional light on the case, like who exactly pushed the particular knife which caused the particular mortal wound, that could help understand the deadly dynamics better, although it probably wouldn't change the guilty verdict all that much.
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Offline Shirley


Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:48 pm

Posts: 376

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Corrina are you anti-plant?
Just because you think someone's a plant doesn't make them a plant.
I mean, they might be an amoeba.
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Offline Emerald


User avatar


Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:53 am

Posts: 1706

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

On the opening 0page of the FOA website is the contact info for both Senators (Cantwell & Murray) from Washington. I called both to say I thought the trial was fair and Amanda was where she belonged--- in jail.

Both aides giggled dismissively as the said they would pass the message on to the Senators.
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Offline Jester


User avatar


Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:24 pm

Posts: 2500

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

DLW wrote:
‘After the diplomatic incident in recent days about the conviction of Amanda Knox at 26 years imprisonment for the murder of Meredith Kercher, a spokesman for the U.S. State Department Ian Kelly called "fair, open and transparent," the Italian judicial system. In fact during the press conference yesterday, a reporter from Fox had judged the Italian judicial system overview as to compare with that of Iran.’

Not sure if this video of that press conference has been posted before. It certainly was lively.

http://www.mauxa.com/ultime-news/1371-a ... cere-.html

Brian take care.


That was a joke, right? That was too strange ... implying that the US is reluctant to step in because of troops in Afghanistan.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Shirley wrote:
Corrina are you anti-plant?
Just because you think someone's a plant doesn't make them a plant.
I mean, they might be an amoeba.


And we can't be 100% sure anyway.

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Offline Lancelotti


Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:09 pm

Posts: 378

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Amanda Is America


Michael Wolff
Not too long ago, Amanda Knox, convicted the other day in Italy of murdering her junior-year-abroad roommate, Meredith Kercher, was “Foxy Knoxy.” Now she is martyred Amanda, a tabloid Joan of Arc, an immensely sympathetic character at the center of a monstrous international miscarriage of justice.

Because the Italian judicial system, which is now also on trial, allows for prolonged appeals—essentially do-overs of the original trial—we will be hearing about St. Amanda for a long time to come. So let’s pick up the story:

It is not about who killed Meredith Kercher. Because of mistakes in the investigation, fatal mishandling of the evidence, and all manner of bias, there will likely never be a reasonable conclusion of guilt (or innocence). Hence, the story is, in part, about bungling and about bias. Or, it is about the larger meaning of bias. The Italian bias is against Americans, who are arrogant and entitled. The American bias is against Italians, who are bunglers. Jokers. Clowns.

Indeed, the fate of Amanda Knox has now become a significant diplomatic issue, having to do not just with the rights of a young American abroad but with the ever-increasing distaste, among Americans, for Europe.

The US secretary of state, when asked about the verdict, rather oddly replied that she was willing to listen to anyone who had doubts, as though she were the ultimate appeals court. The Italian press pushed this further, with Corriere Della Sera headlining the story: “Amanda: Clinton Intervenes.”

If Europe is distasteful, Italy is an especially easy target of our aversion.

There’s Silvio Berlusconi. The prime minister has come, for much of the world, to embody the screwball nature of Italy, with its myriad and fantastic dysfunctions and illogic. Italian standards may apply to Italians but they shouldn’t, reasonably, apply to anyone else. Even the traditionally bloodthirsty and misogynistic British press has gone soft on Amanda (even though she’s now been convicted of murdering a British girl). Between a doping, sex-crazed American mall rat who may have slit her friend’s throat and Silvio Berlusconi, there’s no contest; the former is more prudent and rational.

For the Italians—and, it would seem especially, the Italian jury, which, after a two-year legal proceeding, convicted Knox within hours—the trial may have righted the judicial balance with the US. There’s the American military pilot who cut the cable of a sky gondola, killing 20 in Italy (“Massacre of Cermis”), and who was later acquitted in a US military court. There’s the Italians intelligence agent shot dead by US soldiers in Iraq as he freed an Italian journalist—nobody held accountable here. One might go so far as to say that Amanda Knox is guilty of the war in Iraq.

Every nation is, more and more, dangerously righteous.

This 22-year-old American girl, guilty certainly of great carelessness if not much worse, is about to become a personage in the bitter battle for standing and primacy in the world.
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Offline Corrina


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:20 pm

Posts: 625

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Only the plants (or amoebas) that come in, guns blazing, with intent to be inflammatory. Yeah, those plants sort of piss me off. They really need to stop attacking Skep first. It's the (first) giveaway who they are and where they are from. In my opinion. Not that I'm 100% sure. It would bee a bit more interesting if they jumped someone other than a moderator from the go, wouldn't it? Might leave us guessing for a while.
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Offline Jester


User avatar


Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:24 pm

Posts: 2500

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

bucketoftea wrote:
...and I really can't get over anyone taking issue with the jurors wearing their sash of office! Talk about paranoid!

It's ... uhm ... okay ... I'm speechless. In the US, court officials wear funny clothes. Here in Canada, underneath those long black robes, prosecutors wear what I would call a penguin suit. Everything but the underwear is dictated by protocol. Perhaps in the US some of the formal, traditional dress has been relaxed ... but ... to suggest that court dress is foreign countries is meant to intimidate people from the US is completely ... ludicrous ... and seriously provincial.

Question for those critical of foreign court dress protocol: why are these US court officials dressed like they are?




A QC in court dress (England, Canada)

And what would some US people have to say about the outfit of the Chief Justice in Canada ... that he's making a mockery of the convict by dressing like Santa Claus?


Here is a link to court dress in various countries ... http://www.filibustercartoons.com/judges.htm
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Lancelotti wrote:
Amanda Is America


Michael Wolff
Not too long ago, Amanda Knox, convicted the other day in Italy of murdering her junior-year-abroad roommate, Meredith Kercher, was “Foxy Knoxy.” Now she is martyred Amanda, a tabloid Joan of Arc, an immensely sympathetic character at the center of a monstrous international miscarriage of justice.

Because the Italian judicial system, which is now also on trial, allows for prolonged appeals—essentially do-overs of the original trial—we will be hearing about St. Amanda for a long time to come. So let’s pick up the story:

It is not about who killed Meredith Kercher. Because of mistakes in the investigation, fatal mishandling of the evidence, and all manner of bias, there will likely never be a reasonable conclusion of guilt (or innocence). Hence, the story is, in part, about bungling and about bias. Or, it is about the larger meaning of bias. The Italian bias is against Americans, who are arrogant and entitled. The American bias is against Italians, who are bunglers. Jokers. Clowns.

Indeed, the fate of Amanda Knox has now become a significant diplomatic issue, having to do not just with the rights of a young American abroad but with the ever-increasing distaste, among Americans, for Europe.

The US secretary of state, when asked about the verdict, rather oddly replied that she was willing to listen to anyone who had doubts, as though she were the ultimate appeals court. The Italian press pushed this further, with Corriere Della Sera headlining the story: “Amanda: Clinton Intervenes.”

If Europe is distasteful, Italy is an especially easy target of our aversion.

There’s Silvio Berlusconi. The prime minister has come, for much of the world, to embody the screwball nature of Italy, with its myriad and fantastic dysfunctions and illogic. Italian standards may apply to Italians but they shouldn’t, reasonably, apply to anyone else. Even the traditionally bloodthirsty and misogynistic British press has gone soft on Amanda (even though she’s now been convicted of murdering a British girl). Between a doping, sex-crazed American mall rat who may have slit her friend’s throat and Silvio Berlusconi, there’s no contest; the former is more prudent and rational.

For the Italians—and, it would seem especially, the Italian jury, which, after a two-year legal proceeding, convicted Knox within hours—the trial may have righted the judicial balance with the US. There’s the American military pilot who cut the cable of a sky gondola, killing 20 in Italy (“Massacre of Cermis”), and who was later acquitted in a US military court. There’s the Italians intelligence agent shot dead by US soldiers in Iraq as he freed an Italian journalist—nobody held accountable here. One might go so far as to say that Amanda Knox is guilty of the war in Iraq.

Every nation is, more and more, dangerously righteous.

This 22-year-old American girl, guilty certainly of great carelessness if not much worse, is about to become a personage in the bitter battle for standing and primacy in the world.



I think this author exaggerates the situation. Amanda is not America; she is American. And I doubt the Cantwell gaffe will trigger a bitter battle for standing and primacy in the world. That battle is ongoing and has been for about... a couple thousand years. The fate of Knox is not a significant diplomatic issue, though her supporters would like it to be. I think that bid has failed.

I don't really identify with Americans who find Europe "distasteful", probably because I lived there more than half of my adult life.

But I disagree that the case was not about who killed Meredith Kercher, as well as with the idea that any mistakes in evidence gathering are "fatal". This is surely an overstatement. The investigation was not perfect, but neither was it fatally flawed -- unless you buy Anne Bremner's analysis, and she didn't even recognize the real crime scene.

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Offline Kermit


User avatar


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:37 am

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:46 pm   Post subject: POPPYCOCK   

Lancelotti wrote:
Amanda Is America


Michael Wolff
Not too long ago, Amanda Knox, convicted the other day in Italy of murdering her junior-year-abroad roommate, Meredith Kercher, was “Foxy Knoxy.” Now she is martyred Amanda, a tabloid Joan of Arc, an immensely sympathetic character at the center of a monstrous international miscarriage of justice.

Because the Italian judicial system, which is now also on trial, allows for prolonged appeals—essentially do-overs of the original trial—we will be hearing about St. Amanda for a long time to come. So let’s pick up the story:

It is not about who killed Meredith Kercher. Because of mistakes in the investigation, fatal mishandling of the evidence, and all manner of bias, there will likely never be a reasonable conclusion of guilt (or innocence). Hence, the story is, in part, about bungling and about bias. Or, it is about the larger meaning of bias. The Italian bias is against Americans, who are arrogant and entitled. The American bias is against Italians, who are bunglers. Jokers. Clowns.

Indeed, the fate of Amanda Knox has now become a significant diplomatic issue, having to do not just with the rights of a young American abroad but with the ever-increasing distaste, among Americans, for Europe.

The US secretary of state, when asked about the verdict, rather oddly replied that she was willing to listen to anyone who had doubts, as though she were the ultimate appeals court. The Italian press pushed this further, with Corriere Della Sera headlining the story: “Amanda: Clinton Intervenes.”

If Europe is distasteful, Italy is an especially easy target of our aversion.

There’s Silvio Berlusconi. The prime minister has come, for much of the world, to embody the screwball nature of Italy, with its myriad and fantastic dysfunctions and illogic. Italian standards may apply to Italians but they shouldn’t, reasonably, apply to anyone else. Even the traditionally bloodthirsty and misogynistic British press has gone soft on Amanda (even though she’s now been convicted of murdering a British girl). Between a doping, sex-crazed American mall rat who may have slit her friend’s throat and Silvio Berlusconi, there’s no contest; the former is more prudent and rational.

For the Italians—and, it would seem especially, the Italian jury, which, after a two-year legal proceeding, convicted Knox within hours—the trial may have righted the judicial balance with the US. There’s the American military pilot who cut the cable of a sky gondola, killing 20 in Italy (“Massacre of Cermis”), and who was later acquitted in a US military court. There’s the Italians intelligence agent shot dead by US soldiers in Iraq as he freed an Italian journalist—nobody held accountable here. One might go so far as to say that Amanda Knox is guilty of the war in Iraq.

Every nation is, more and more, dangerously righteous.

This 22-year-old American girl, guilty certainly of great carelessness if not much worse, is about to become a personage in the bitter battle for standing and primacy in the world.

Lancelotti!!!! I was worried there for a moment, as I thought that those were your words .... for as much as I don't agree with anything you write, I thought that even for your way of thinking, the text which was in fact quoted from Michael Wolff was way off keel.

In fact, by cutting and pasting Wolff's article, you left out the most important part, his signature at the end:

"More of Newser founder Michael Wolff's articles and commentary can be found at VanityFair.com, where he writes a regular column. He can be emailed at michael@newser.com."


Ahhhhhhhh!!!!!!! Vanity Fair .... that explains it all, because Wolff's level of understanding of international affairs is on a level of Judy Bachrach's : the BIG ZERO (Judy's the one who even Larry Knight shushed up various times because of the verbal diarrhea she produced on his prime time show, like that the Italian Civil Code legal system came from the Inquisition).

I don't like Berlusconi's politics at all, but Italy, like Spain (which is rather reticent for these affairs) and other European nations responded to the most recent USA request for additional soldiers to support the USA lead surge in Afghanistan, exceeding the expected request. Just one example of the many to bely the crap which writers like Wolff peddle to his and Judy's readers.


Last edited by Kermit on Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Earthling


User avatar


Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:25 pm

Posts: 504

Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Jester wrote:
Earthling wrote:
Michael wrote:
Amanda Knox's Mom Tells Her to Have 'Courage'
Knox Family Realized the Verdict Was Guilty When Amanda Began to Cry
By NIKKI BATTISTE and JON MEYERSOHN
PERUGIA, Italy Dec. 9, 2009

ABC NEWS

What, are these parents dim-wits? (sorry) But I mean, look up the Italian word for "guilty" on the internet BEFORE you head on over from the hotel to the reading of your daughter's verdict in a murder trial! (I just did, it's "colpevole," it even sounds like a similar English word, "culpable.") I'm sorry, but did they look up only the word for "innocent" (that's easy, "innocenti") because they were so sure she'd be acquitted??! Wow.


Exactly ... at what point are they going to take some responsibility for knowing what happened in court. I have wondered what they were doing in the courtroom over the last year ... daydreaming for hours? That's just plain weird, in my opinion.


Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought Judge Massei's formulation was such that the word in Italian for "condemn" was spoken. He seemed to say the name and then the word indicating that the verdict was a conviction.

Skep, you're right. I think they used the word "condannato" according to this German article (by Smoltczyk), which I'm now translating.

But my main point was not exactly which word was used. It was the same as Jester is making -- that the parents of Amanda had been there for months or years. Certainly in all that time, they could learn the Italian words that might be spoken to either condemn or release their daughter, and not be dependent on their daughter's reaction (tears or smiles) to help them determine the verdict.

But I guess that's not so surprising, as they seem to be unable in many ways to take responsibility for themselves, or their other children.
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Offline mulder_01


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:52 pm

Posts: 5

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Am I alone on perugiamurderfile.org in thinking that Amanda Knox is innocent ?
I did my research on truejustice.org. Much better than the stupid Cable News Networks but some of its online reports on the case seem to contain bias and errors too.
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Offline Tiziano


Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:06 am

Posts: 714

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -WE MISS YOU!!!!!!   

Tara wrote:
Brian S. wrote:
Dear All,

I want to make a post.

I have been incredibly ill over the last two months, I don't want to go into it. I guess it's what comes with age.

Pete, you know I've had my arguments with you but what you've done over the last few days has been incredible.

I still keep up..

Signing off now

Brian


Hi Brian,

I, like The Bard also thought of you when the verdict was announced. Your analysis over the past 2 years has been a "go to" reference for me on many, many occasions.

My thoughts are with you and wish you strength in your recovery process.

Thank you so much for checking in - it's great to hear from you.

All the best,

Tara


BRIAN, DEAR OLD FRIEND! We all have missed you; I have often bemoaned to myself the lack of your clear concisive logical brain and your generous labours. I send you all my very best wishes for a continuing recovery.
All the very best from Oz, in particular for the heart-shaped island at the bottom of the globe. Tiziano
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Offline The Bard


User avatar


Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:46 pm

Posts: 2486

Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:52 pm   Post subject: Re: POPPYCOCK   

Kermit wrote:
I don't like Berlusconi's politics at all, but Italy, like Spain (which is rather reticent for these affairs) and other European nations responded to the most recent USA request for additional soldiers to support the USA lead surge in Afghanistan, exceeding the expected request. Just one example of the many to bely the crap which writers like Wolff peddle to his and Judy's readers.


cl-)

_________________
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Offline Emerald


User avatar


Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:53 am

Posts: 1706

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

For lunch I had a salad with Italian dressing and some garlic toast w/mozzarella and Parmesan topping.

tou-) to all the boycotters.

mul-)
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Offline Lancelotti


Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:09 pm

Posts: 378

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
I think this author exaggerates the situation. Amanda is not America; she is American.


Really? And I thought he was being serious when he said "One might go so far as to say that Amanda Knox is guilty of the war in Iraq." :lol:



and Kermit didn't get it either???? I am shocked!
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Offline The 411


User avatar


Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:49 pm

Posts: 1386

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

bucketoftea wrote:
...and I really can't get over anyone taking issue with the jurors wearing their sash of office! Talk about paranoid!


I'm becoming progressively more and more embarrassed by the inane comments made by the US media.. :oops:

When I heard the comment by the seemingly outraged reporter about the wearing of the tricolored sash... I was actually thinking this film clip has got to be a. . .

. . . PARODY!!

(I mean, in the same spirit as that silly Barbara Walters interview Tara, Willow and I were scripting. . . as a gag!)

This particular interchange, on the other hand, is not a gag...it's real...and IT MAKES ME *WANT* TO GAG!! Bleehhhhhhhh!!
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

mulder_01 wrote:
Am I alone on perugiamurderfile.org in thinking that Amanda Knox is innocent ?
I did my research on truejustice.org. Much better than the stupid Cable News Networks but some of its online reports on the case seem to contain bias and errors too.


I appreciate your apology for stating I looked stupid for something I did not write or say, by the way. :) Speaking of careless reading, I think it is better than none at all. This board has existed for two years, so there is lots for you to catch up on. If you find that daunting, check the posts since the verdict on Friday. You will get a sense of where people stand here, and some reasons why. To get a full picture, however, you have to read how we got to the view that the trial was warranted and the outcome not all that shocking and not unjustified.

_________________
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Offline ttrroonniicc


Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:12 pm

Posts: 1073

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:57 pm   Post subject: some trial overview   

related on IRC

kokomani:

His testimony is chilling he says that he was driving slowly past the murder house on the night (confirmed by phone records) and he saw AK and Sollecito crouched down in the road - AK came up to his car with a knife then Soll. he punched Soll. AK came around the other side of the car to try to get in after yelling 'did you do it!' to Soll (did you stab him) - he threw things out of his car to keep her away (a jar of olives - an old mobile phone) he said Soll. had walked towards him coldly without smiling that is only the start of the testimony it took the prosecution under cross examination several hours to get it out of him because he was such a mess

The prosection admitted that 'kokomani' their primary witness was 'unreliable' he certainly was -- he was brought into court for his testimony (7 hours) in handcuffs he was ruined he'd been jailed shortly after for beating his girlfriend up - was an alcoholic but he'd really hit the bottle after what he saw that night he only turned up in february 2008 an abanian he was told by his friends not to say anything (the albanian code of 'omerta' - don't talk to the police) but he was told also from other directions that he was in danger - he fled back to albania and then arrived back in italy to a lawyer friend who took his story and put him on the stand - the story is dynamite he said he was there that night and he was threatened with knives by both knox and solleceto - he ID'd rudy guede who offered him E250 to use his car (E250 was stolen from the victim) - he knew Guede - had worked with him. The defence tried to say that Kokomani was delusionally alcoholic - but he had related to friends when he arrived at the bar after the encounter that he'd been assailed by '3 lunatics' he knows detail about the attire of both AK and Solleceto that they were photographed wearing the next morning.

there has been speculation on perugia murder file that they were attempting a 'carjack'
the defence say he was offered money but in truth it is possible that *they* offered him money

AK:

New evidence came from the murder trial after the verdict it's a short story written by AK in prison they gave her a E100 prize for her writing it's allegorical it's all about the murder and in a way it explains what happened

It's a story of a party at a house where someone gets injured etc the story is short (coupla pages) in it it relates details of the crime scene


Last edited by ttrroonniicc on Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Kermit


User avatar


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:37 am

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

mulder_01 wrote:
Am I alone on perugiamurderfile.org in thinking that Amanda Knox is innocent ?
I did my research on truejustice.org. Much better than the stupid Cable News Networks but some of its online reports on the case seem to contain bias and errors too.

Often times I have asked people who have had a pro-Amanda stance, when they refer to Amanda's guilt or innocence:

Guilty of what?
OR, Innocent of what?

Are you referring to a legal definition of guilt (innocence)? Two judges and a jury found Raffaele and Amanda both guilty of the various charges against them. In the case of the murder charge, read above, read past discussions about what is required to be guilty of murder. Maybe you don't have to be the one who pushed the knife.

Are you referring to a moral approach to guilt of murder? Why did Amanda not cooperate with the investigation over a year's time, until its conclusion? Maybe she didn't push the knife (or maybe she did). But she certainly didn't help resolve many questions in the investigation.

Please don't follow the Anti-American FOA talking point line. It's patently absurd. Even Amanda's Italian lawyers reject it, as they do with most of the idiotic and counterproductive FOA activities, supposedly in favour of Amanda, but actually only favourable to the personal financial, commercial and power objectives of its members.
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Offline flyonwall


Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 4:17 pm

Posts: 4

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Corrina wrote:
Only the plants (or amoebas) that come in, guns blazing, with intent to be inflammatory. Yeah, those plants sort of piss me off. They really need to stop attacking Skep first. It's the (first) giveaway who they are and where they are from. In my opinion. Not that I'm 100% sure. It would bee a bit more interesting if they jumped someone other than a moderator from the go, wouldn't it? Might leave us guessing for a while.


Am I the other houseplant you were refering to right after my comment about reasonable doubt (which you may want to re-read at a slower rate)?

I have been in the house since July, at which time I joined to advance a masked assailant theory you seem to have adopted.

What does my post count need to be to make a Corrina worthy post?
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Offline bucketoftea


User avatar


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:09 pm

Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Shirley wrote:
Corrina are you anti-plant?
Just because you think someone's a plant doesn't make them a plant.
I mean, they might be an amoeba.


Blue-green algae?
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Offline nicki

Forensics Moderator


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:27 am

Posts: 847

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Brian,
Get well and come back soon! We miss you and need you hugz-)

_________________
"A pensare male si fa peccato, ma molto spesso ci si azzecca" mike
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Offline bucketoftea


User avatar


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:09 pm

Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

I don't think they mean you, Fly.
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Offline Zopi


User avatar


Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 8:52 pm

Posts: 317

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Lancelotti wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
I think this author exaggerates the situation. Amanda is not America; she is American.


Really? And I thought he was being serious when he said "One might go so far as to say that Amanda Knox is guilty of the war in Iraq." :lol:



and Kermit didn't get it either???? I am shocked!


Lancelotti, that's funny (seriously). :-)
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Offline Tiziano


Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:06 am

Posts: 714

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:10 pm   Post subject: Re: POPPYCOCK   

Kermit wrote:
Lancelotti wrote:
Amanda Is America


Michael Wolff
Not too long ago, Amanda Knox, convicted the other day in Italy of murdering her junior-year-abroad roommate, Meredith Kercher, was “Foxy Knoxy.” Now she is martyred Amanda, a tabloid Joan of Arc, an immensely sympathetic character at the center of a monstrous international miscarriage of justice.

Because the Italian judicial system, which is now also on trial, allows for prolonged appeals—essentially do-overs of the original trial—we will be hearing about St. Amanda for a long time to come. So let’s pick up the story:

It is not about who killed Meredith Kercher. Because of mistakes in the investigation, fatal mishandling of the evidence, and all manner of bias, there will likely never be a reasonable conclusion of guilt (or innocence). Hence, the story is, in part, about bungling and about bias. Or, it is about the larger meaning of bias. The Italian bias is against Americans, who are arrogant and entitled. The American bias is against Italians, who are bunglers. Jokers. Clowns.

Indeed, the fate of Amanda Knox has now become a significant diplomatic issue, having to do not just with the rights of a young American abroad but with the ever-increasing distaste, among Americans, for Europe.

The US secretary of state, when asked about the verdict, rather oddly replied that she was willing to listen to anyone who had doubts, as though she were the ultimate appeals court. The Italian press pushed this further, with Corriere Della Sera headlining the story: “Amanda: Clinton Intervenes.”

If Europe is distasteful, Italy is an especially easy target of our aversion.

There’s Silvio Berlusconi. The prime minister has come, for much of the world, to embody the screwball nature of Italy, with its myriad and fantastic dysfunctions and illogic. Italian standards may apply to Italians but they shouldn’t, reasonably, apply to anyone else. Even the traditionally bloodthirsty and misogynistic British press has gone soft on Amanda (even though she’s now been convicted of murdering a British girl). Between a doping, sex-crazed American mall rat who may have slit her friend’s throat and Silvio Berlusconi, there’s no contest; the former is more prudent and rational.

For the Italians—and, it would seem especially, the Italian jury, which, after a two-year legal proceeding, convicted Knox within hours—the trial may have righted the judicial balance with the US. There’s the American military pilot who cut the cable of a sky gondola, killing 20 in Italy (“Massacre of Cermis”), and who was later acquitted in a US military court. There’s the Italians intelligence agent shot dead by US soldiers in Iraq as he freed an Italian journalist—nobody held accountable here. One might go so far as to say that Amanda Knox is guilty of the war in Iraq.

Every nation is, more and more, dangerously righteous.

This 22-year-old American girl, guilty certainly of great carelessness if not much worse, is about to become a personage in the bitter battle for standing and primacy in the world.

Lancelotti!!!! I was worried there for a moment, as I thought that those were your words .... for as much as I don't agree with anything you write, I thought that even for your way of thinking, the text which was in fact quoted from Michael Wolff was way off keel.

In fact, by cutting and pasting Wolff's article, you left out the most important part, his signature at the end:

"More of Newser founder Michael Wolff's articles and commentary can be found at VanityFair.com, where he writes a regular column. He can be emailed at michael@newser.com."


Ahhhhhhhh!!!!!!! Vanity Fair .... that explains it all, because Wolff's level of understanding of international affairs is on a level of Judy Bachrach's : the BIG ZERO (Judy's the one who even Larry Knight shushed up various times because of the verbal diarrhea she produced on his prime time show, like that the Italian Civil Code legal system came from the Inquisition).

I don't like Berlusconi's politics at all, but Italy, like Spain (which is rather reticent for these affairs) and other European nations responded to the most recent USA request for additional soldiers to support the USA lead surge in Afghanistan, exceeding the expected request. Just one example of the many to bely the crap which writers like Wolff peddle to his and Judy's readers.



Like Kermit, Lancelotti, I don't find a lot in your posts that adds to my enjoyment of the world and life in general, so I just let most of your balls fly through to the keeper. What he does with them, damned if I care!

However, this time you have gone too far. I do not think the way you posted the comments from the Wolff article was at all clear or transparent.

At first I was under the impression that it was Lancelotti talking, not the Vanity Fair genius.

When I am at the doctor's or dentist's waiting for treatment, I look for Vanity Fair to read: it is usually such a painful experience reading it that all my pain and trepidation at the horrors of the treatment to come just evaporate away!! Sometimes I wonder whether I should just go home and not bother my health professionals for the comparatively minor ailments which have brought me to their waiting rooms!
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Offline Emerald


User avatar


Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:53 am

Posts: 1706

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

mulder_01 wrote:
Am I alone on perugiamurderfile.org in thinking that Amanda Knox is innocent ?
I did my research on truejustice.org. Much better than the stupid Cable News Networks but some of its online reports on the case seem to contain bias and errors too.


I don't think so. Frankly, this site would be very boring without all opinions.

In Amanda's false Patrick Lumumba confession, she included facts of the crime scene which the Investigators had not yet confirmed. For me, that was the single most convincing piece of evidence.

The dna did not convince me of Amanda's guilt. Most of it was very weak, IMO. Some of it seemed more plausible to convict.

But, in total, it was very convincing.
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Offline Bess


Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:41 pm

Posts: 69

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

DLW wrote:
‘After the diplomatic incident in recent days about the conviction of Amanda Knox at 26 years imprisonment for the murder of Meredith Kercher, a spokesman for the U.S. State Department Ian Kelly called "fair, open and transparent," the Italian judicial system. In fact during the press conference yesterday, a reporter from Fox had judged the Italian judicial system overview as to compare with that of Iran.’

Not sure if this video of that press conference has been posted before. It certainly was lively.

http://www.mauxa.com/ultime-news/1371-a ... cere-.html



At any moment, I was expecting that fellow to say, "Live from New York, it's Saturday Night!!!"
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Offline bucketoftea


User avatar


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:09 pm

Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Tiziano said:

"When I am at the doctor's or dentist's waiting for treatment, I look for Vanity Fair to read: it is usually such a painful experience reading it that all my pain and trepidation at the horrors of the treatment to come just evaporate away!! Sometimes I wonder whether I should just go home and not bother my health professionals for the comparatively minor ailments which have brought me to their waiting rooms!"

Made me laugh! My sister (a smart and sophisticated person) I spotted once with a Vanity Fair under her arm, and I thought "hmm". The next time I was about to board a plane, I bought a copy. Never again. I recall sitting down with it thinking there would be a good read, here. LOL! I thought the writing was terrible!!! Vanity Fair does what it says on the label.
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Offline The 411


User avatar


Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:49 pm

Posts: 1386

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Emerald wrote:
For lunch I had a salad with Italian dressing and some garlic toast w/mozzarella and Parmesan topping.

tou-) to all the boycotters.

mul-)


Hi, Emerald:
I'm with you 100%!
Let me extend my invitation to you for dinner tonight, Chez 411!!
I'm serving:
1-Spaghetti Ai Carabinieri (a variation of Alla Carbonara that Skep introduced me to)
2-Pollo alla Diavola (the devil and Doug Preston made me do it!)
3- For desert, I'm making "Torta di Noci" (Nut Cake, made with American nuts, though)
because...I don't know what ELSE to do with all these NUTS in the US! (present company excluded, of course!)

For the rest of ya, lots of BACI (the Perugina type)
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

bucketoftea wrote:
Tiziano said:

"When I am at the doctor's or dentist's waiting for treatment, I look for Vanity Fair to read: it is usually such a painful experience reading it that all my pain and trepidation at the horrors of the treatment to come just evaporate away!! Sometimes I wonder whether I should just go home and not bother my health professionals for the comparatively minor ailments which have brought me to their waiting rooms!"

Made me laugh! My sister (a smart and sophisticated person) I spotted once with a Vanity Fair under her arm, and I thought "hmm". The next time I was about to board a plane, I bought a copy. Never again. I recall sitting down with it thinking there would be a good read, here. LOL! I thought the writing was terrible!!! Vanity Fair does what it says on the label.


Vanity Fair is just a fancy gossip magazine for people who consider themselves too posh for People. Its writers are glib globetrotters for the most part. I quite like Christopher Hitchens, because he is well educated and acerbic, and James Wolcott, for the same reason. I also believe Vanity Fair has found a large niche market of affluent people who want to know what's going on culturally so that they can follow cocktail party chat.

_________________
Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point; on le sait en mille choses.
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Offline Kermit


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Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:37 am

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

flyonwall wrote:
Corrina wrote:
Only the plants (or amoebas) that come in, guns blazing, with intent to be inflammatory. Yeah, those plants sort of piss me off. They really need to stop attacking Skep first. It's the (first) giveaway who they are and where they are from. In my opinion. Not that I'm 100% sure. It would bee a bit more interesting if they jumped someone other than a moderator from the go, wouldn't it? Might leave us guessing for a while.


Am I the other houseplant you were refering to right after my comment about reasonable doubt (which you may want to re-read at a slower rate)?

I have been in the house since July, at which time I joined to advance a masked assailant theory you seem to have adopted.

What does my post count need to be to make a Corrina worthy post?

Don't worry Flyonwall, I don't think she was referring to you.

Any theories which further our understanding of the crime and which the other posters are interested in get discussed. Those which don't get discussed just don't get discussed.
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Offline bilko


User avatar


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:25 pm

Posts: 198

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Hi, I am new to this site, but have been absolutely sucked in to the "Foxy Knoxy" "Amandagate" etc. etc. story. I tend to get incensed by any story of injustice or wrong conviction, but equally I get furious about cases where people who appear to be guilty get let off. From the time that I became aware of the various alibis given by ms. Knox, I have been convinced of her guilt. There was a time, though when I started to believe that she was the victim of anti-americanism and character assassination, To allay my doubts, I started to read into the case a little more. I am now convinced that the Italian justice system achieved a fair result in this case. I am now becoming increasingly angry at the way that the American press appears to be swallowing the FOA campaign hook; line and sinker. I am also afraid that the British press is guilty of this also. I found this article in the Telegraph, quite refreshing.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... wrong.html

I don't know how the FOA campaign to woo the American public is going to have any effect on the Italians, though.
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Offline Corrina


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:20 pm

Posts: 625

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

flyonwall wrote:
Corrina wrote:
Only the plants (or amoebas) that come in, guns blazing, with intent to be inflammatory. Yeah, those plants sort of piss me off. They really need to stop attacking Skep first. It's the (first) giveaway who they are and where they are from. In my opinion. Not that I'm 100% sure. It would bee a bit more interesting if they jumped someone other than a moderator from the go, wouldn't it? Might leave us guessing for a while.


Am I the other houseplant you were refering to right after my comment about reasonable doubt (which you may want to re-read at a slower rate)?

I have been in the house since July, at which time I joined to advance a masked assailant theory you seem to have adopted.

What does my post count need to be to make a Corrina worthy post?



Relax Fly. No idea how you got that I was referring to you. I was joking with Shirley about the one that came in stating Skep appeared ignorant. As for what I have or have not adopted, again, I was having a bit of fun with one who dances a lot around subjects.
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Offline mulder_01


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:52 pm

Posts: 5

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
I appreciate your apology for stating I looked stupid for something I did not write or say, by the way. :) Speaking of careless reading, I think it is better than none at all. This board has existed for two years, so there is lots for you to catch up on. If you find that daunting, check the posts since the verdict on Friday. You will get a sense of where people stand here, and some reasons why. To get a full picture, however, you have to read how we got to the view that the trial was warranted and the outcome not all that shocking and not unjustified.


I forgot. Sorry for stating you looked ignorant (not stupid tou-) ) for something you did not write or say. I already checked the posts since the verdict on Friday. But you make an assumptive statement ("how we got to the view that the trial was warranted ...") because you don`t know exactly what happened. I can't believe the things you say. Everything rests purely on circumstantial evidence. It is a very sensitive issue. Please don`t judge about this case because you don`t know better than the internet/media. No one can`t get at the truth.
Let's keep it that way.

PS: I don't follow the stupid Anti-American FOA talking point line.


Last edited by mulder_01 on Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline anne


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Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:04 pm

Posts: 173

Location: Berlin Kreuzberg

Highscores: 3

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Was a criminal psychologist involved in the proceedings or in the investigations?
Or a profiler?
I would find it highly interesting what he would have to say about the kind/type of the crime and about the way the victim was attacked. Why the throat?
There are so many ways to hurt and murder a person. What does it say about the offenders that they chose to do it this way?
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

mulder_01 wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
I appreciate your apology for stating I looked stupid for something I did not write or say, by the way. :) Speaking of careless reading, I think it is better than none at all. This board has existed for two years, so there is lots for you to catch up on. If you find that daunting, check the posts since the verdict on Friday. You will get a sense of where people stand here, and some reasons why. To get a full picture, however, you have to read how we got to the view that the trial was warranted and the outcome not all that shocking and not unjustified.


I forgot. Sorry for stating you looked ignorant (not stupid tou-) ) for something you did not write or say. I already checked the posts since the verdict on Friday. But you make an assumptive statement ("how we got to the view that the trial was warranted ...") because you don`t know exactly what happened. I can't believe the things you say. Everything rests purely on circumstantial evidence. It is a very sensitive issue. Please don`t judge about this case because you don`t know better than the internet/media. No one can`t get at the truth.
Let's keep it that way.


I think you wandered onto the wrong board. Let's just leave it at that, shall we? By no one can't get at the truth, do you mean that everyone can? And if you mean something else, why should we keep it that way? Isn't getting at the truth a worthy goal? I can't agree either that everything rests on circumstantial evidence, but I doubt it is worth discussing. Good luck in your quest, whatever it is.

_________________
Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point; on le sait en mille choses.
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Offline flyonwall


Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 4:17 pm

Posts: 4

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Corrina wrote:
Relax Fly. No idea how you got that I was referring to you. I was joking with Shirley about the one that came in stating Skep appeared ignorant. As for what I have or have not adopted, again, I was having a bit of fun with one who dances a lot around subjects.

That's cool. I just wanted to defend myself as someone who tries to interject salient points for discussion.

I apologize for mistaking myself as the subject of your post about houseplants. I guess it was just where my post fell in relation to yours.
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Offline martin


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:28 pm

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Skeptical,
when will "italian dressing" be renamed as "freedom dressing" ?
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Offline cyyates


User avatar


Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:51 am

Posts: 64

Location: U.S. Nebraska

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Emerald wrote:
The common thread among everyone is AMANDA.

Sarcasm does not translate. Prank organized by Amanda gone bad.


I agree with this as well. I think this was the origin of the attack for some reason, possibly b/c it makes it easier to understand. Amanda wanted to pull another famous prank due to dark feelings about Meredith. Things went too far, identities became known to Meredith or she didn't take too lightly to the prank and threatened to expose them. She was then murdered, and Amanda / Raf staged and cleaned up.....and lots of holes in the middle.

It's the rape I have a hard time placing. Is there anyway to tell if a rape happened pre or post mortem? Is this info that has already been discussed? How would a couple convince another to rape while they watched?? I can't grasp this part because as a woman, I cannot imagine watching such a horrible thing. The wrong 3 people got together that's all I know.
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Offline Kermit


User avatar


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:37 am

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:02 pm   Post subject: THE JUDGES AND JURY KNOW BETTER THAN WE ....   

mulder_01 wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
I appreciate your apology for stating I looked stupid for something I did not write or say, by the way. :) Speaking of careless reading, I think it is better than none at all. This board has existed for two years, so there is lots for you to catch up on. If you find that daunting, check the posts since the verdict on Friday. You will get a sense of where people stand here, and some reasons why. To get a full picture, however, you have to read how we got to the view that the trial was warranted and the outcome not all that shocking and not unjustified.


I forgot. Sorry for stating you looked ignorant (not stupid tou-) ) for something you did not write or say. I already checked the posts since the verdict on Friday. But you make an assumptive statement ("how we got to the view that the trial was warranted ...") because you don`t know exactly what happened. I can't believe the things you say. Everything rests purely on circumstantial evidence. It is a very sensitive issue. Please don`t judge about this case because you don`t know better than the internet/media. No one can`t get at the truth.

We don't have access to the evidence and witness statements which the judges and jury DID have access to. On the basis of that information, Raffaele and his ex-girlfriend were found legally guilty of murder (doesn't matter if he, or she, or Rudy was the one who pushed the knife which was the mortal knife, in the wound which was the mortal wound - of the dozens of knife wounds which Meredith suffered).

The truth is that Raffaele didn't open his mouth during the trial.

The truth is that one of the first times that Amanda opened her mouth after over a year of non-cooperation with the investigation, was to clarify the size of her personal vibrator.

The truth is that Raffaele says that Amanda was out of his apartment for four hours on the night of the murder, while she says she was there.

The truth is that - in spite of FOA's explicit denials of any relation whatsoever - Amanda partied and smoked marijuana with Rudy prior to the crime.

The truth is that Amanda's DNA is mixed with Meredith's blood in several different locations around the cottage.

The truth is that Raffaele's DNA is on Meredith's bra clasp. His defence does not deny that, but claims that it could be due to contamination, a theoretical possibility, but one which has never affected the Perugia forensic team in the past and for which there is no indication of occurrence in this case.

The truth is that there is a barefoot footprint in the victim's blood, which is too small to be Rudy's (whose footprints in any case are shoeprints).

Etc, etc, etc.

Do you want more truths?

I have been personally convinced since the beginning of this case that all three suspects (and now murder convicts, pending appeal) have not been upfront, nor sincere, nor honest in most of their statements. This opinion is inherently true in the sense that Amanda and Raffaele invoked their rights to silence for over a year during the course of the investigation (and Raffaele all through the trial), and that Rudy's statements require leaps of faith to swallow whole which few people will afford him.
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Offline Stevo


Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:42 am

Posts: 16

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

What was the reason for having two separate trials? I'd like to know why RG, decided to go it alone! Was it advice from his lawyers? What was his original charge at the police station?

In my opinion the matter of two separate trials has played into the hands of AK/RS in some way, surely if 3 defendants was placed on trial at the same time, i reckon we would have got a better outcome for Meredith's peeps.


Last edited by Stevo on Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Jools


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Hi Everyone,

Brace yourselves for another ride...
Another piece of c**p from Marie Pace, this time is a poem. I will put up the original (Italian version) as the CU articles tend to disappear fairly quickly. Here it goes:

"I have only one life": New verses from Amanda.

The title recalls the words spoken by her before the judges of the court. Knox other than the winning story has written also a poem.

Has even received recognition for it. With members of the public, within the prison, inmates and the organizers of the literary competition present. The student from Seattle thanked and smiled. That Marie Pace is the pen name of Amanda Knox, it’s said by this mini unofficial shaped award ceremony, which took place behind bars, present were the judging panel and some members of Perugia's charities. What revealed the anonymity were mainly the rough copies handwritten drafts and their content. Explicit. The reconstruction of the night of the death of Meredith. The "certamen" ((literary function)) dedicated to Aldo and Luigina Triduzzi had in the “top five” some other detainees as winners who since then have been published in the booklet by the publisher "La Voce".

However, in the meantime since the first top five winners had been transferred to other prisons, it was decided to award the laurels to all the other participants. Amanda was third. If the short story and the transposition narrative is of what perhaps Amanda Knox saw that night (though obviously hard to take as a confession), there is also this one poem signed by Marie Pace which yet from the title it transpires a deep pain of who is perhaps already conscious of having lost her life in a penitentiary cell. "I have only one life," is the title, which seems to be paired with the "Give me back my life" at the end of closing arguments in court.

Here is the full text, this time also unpublished:

"This is the only life I have and I follow like tracks of scraps from the dawn. This life admired by the various ambitions of my mind, like a register that holds between the arms the psychology the anthropology and history of art. This life that I feel like a knot around the shoulders, like a valley between the breasts, filled by tea fruit-gardens, public libraries, football (soccer) grounds, covered by granite blocks. This life that remembers vaguely and forgets easily, thus in a way categorizing the time as out moments, naked moments, smiling moments, asleep moments, letting them slide between them. This life in which I float in the center, like a zero in the infinite series of positive and negative experiences. This is the only life I have, and not even I can disentangle the blinking moments, with a ball of twenty one strands of Christmas light which shines, like a star, when you insert the plug.”

Several references more or less hidden, to the facts in the Meredith case.
Moreover, “this volume --as written in the preface by Feliciano Ballarani, a member of the board of directors of Perugia's voluntary Association-- is loaded with a big responsibility, to communicate through the innermost thoughts of the prisoners, with the outside."


Quote:
“Ho solo una vita”: nuovi versi di Amanda.

Il titolo rievoca la frase pronunciata davanti ai giudici della corte. La Knox oltre al racconto vincitore del premio ha scritto anche una poesia.

PERUGIA07.12.2009
Ha ricevuto anche un riconoscimento. Pubblico, all'interno del carcere, con i detenuti e gli organizzatori del concorso letterario presenti. Ha ringraziato, la studentessa di Seattle, e ha sorriso. Che Marie Pace sia il nome di penna di Amanda Knox, lo dice questa mini premiazione in forma ufficiosa, avvenuta dietro le sbarre, presenti i giurati e alcuni membri dell'Associazione perugina di volontariato. A svelare l'anonimato ci sono soprattutto le brutte copie scritte a mano e i contenuti. Espliciti. La ricostruzione della notte della morte di Meredith. Il "certamen" dedicato ad Aldo e Luigina Triduzzi, aveva visto nella "top five" vincere altri detenuti rispetto a quelli che poi sono stati pubblicati nel volumetto edito da "La voce". Senonché, essendo stati trasferiti nel frattempo i primi cinque in altre carceri, si è deciso di assegnare l'alloro a tutti gli altri partecipanti. Amanda è risultata terza. E se il racconto breve è la trasposizione narrativa di quello che forse Amanda Knox ha visto quella notte (anche se evidentemente è difficile prenderla per confessione), c'è anche una poesia a firma Marie Pace che già dal titolo fa trasparire l'intimo dolore di chi è forse già consapevole di aver perso la vita nella cella di un penitenziario. "Ho solo una vita", il titolo, che sembra fare il paio con quel "Ridatemi la vita" dell'arringa conclusiva in tribunale. Ecco il testo integrale, anche questo inedito: "Questa è la sola vita che ho e che seguo come le tracce di briciole delle albe. Questa vita ammirata dalle varie ambizioni della mia mente, come una matricola che stringe fra le braccia la psicologia l'antropologia e la storia dell'arte. Questa vita che sento come un nodo attorno alle spalle, come una valle fra il seno, occupata dal frutteti di the, dalle biblioteche pubbliche, dai campi di calcio e foderata dalle scogliere di granito. Questa vita che ricorda vagamente e dimentica facilmente, in tal modo catalogando il tempo come momenti fuori, momenti nudi, momenti sorridenti, momenti addormentati, lasciando che questi scivolino fra di loro. Questa vita in cui galleggio nel centro, come uno zero nella serie infinita d'esperienze positive e negative. Questa è la sola vita che ho, e nemmeno io posso districare i momenti ammiccanti, con una palla di ventuno fili di luce di Natale che brilla, come una stella, quando s'inserisce la spina". Numerosi i riferimenti più o meno velati, ai fatti, al caso Mez. Del resto "questo volume - come scrive nella prefazione Feliciano Ballarani, membro del consiglio direttivo dell'Associazione perugina di volontariato - si fa carico di una grande responsabilità, comunicare attraverso i pensieri più intimi dei detenuti, con l'esterno"
Alessandro Antonini
http://www.corrieredellumbria.it/news.asp?id=35
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Offline mulder_01


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:52 pm

Posts: 5

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Good luck in your quest, whatever it is.


I don`t have some kind of "quest". My point is that media reports (FAUX NEWS, MSNBC, CBS, CNN) about this case are very biased. But this board is biased too. Everyone who`s wrinting "Amanda could be innocent" is treated as brainless FAUX-NEWS watching redneck, wich sucks.
That is "fair and balanced" such as FAUX NEWS and i hate this channel.

PERUGIA MURDER FILE RULES:
15. Freedom of Speech.

@Kermit:
Another truth:
The kitchen knife was not found to be compatible with the fatal wound. That "information" is not true. Official is: The knife doesn`t match. There were imprints of the knife used on Kercher left on the sheet at the crime scene. The "murder weapon" found at Sollecito's home is substantially bigger. It isn't the murder weapon. The only source claims that the knife was compatible with the fatal wound is truejustice.org.


Last edited by mulder_01 on Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline martin


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:28 pm

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:12 pm   Post subject: Re: THE JUDGES AND JURY KNOW BETTER THAN WE ....   

Kermit wrote:

The truth is that Raffaele didn't open his mouth during the trial.



But now he starts talking. After the verdict, his lawyers visited him in jail and he said:
"Where am I? Why am I still here?"
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Offline Corrina


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:20 pm

Posts: 625

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Hey, Scully's looking for you.

Survey says: Ignore the plant. Amoeba. Troll. Whatever.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

martin wrote:
Skeptical,
when will "italian dressing" be renamed as "freedom dressing" ?



I think that disaster has been averted. Incidentally, and I think it was mentioned here, Edda Mellas said last night on the LKL program that AK and RS would have to have gotten high and revved up, then gone out to kill, in the space of thirty minutes, between 9:15 and 9:45. She said that TOD was 9:45. Actually, I think she said 9:30 first and then corrected herself. The most amazing thing is that she said this was the prosecution's theory, or something like that.
I don't know why, but I think we will be seeing fewer appearances of this sort by the end of this week, at least for awhile.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Corrina wrote:
Hey, Scully's looking for you.

Survey says: Ignore the plant. Amoeba. Troll. Whatever.



Low life form in any case. Was out cruising on the Internet highway when suddenly a UFO swooped out of nowhere and the next thing he knew, here he was on this board. (Twilight Zone music here.)

_________________
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

mulder_01 wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Good luck in your quest, whatever it is.


I don`t have some kind of "quest". My point is that media reports (FAUX NEWS, MSNBC, CBS, CNN) about this case are very biased. But this board is biased too. Everyone who`s wrinting "Amanda could be innocent" is treated as brainless FAUX-NEWS watching redneck, wich sucks.
That is "fair and balanced" such as FAUX NEWS and i hate this channel.

PERUGIA MURDER FILE RULES:
15. Freedom of Speech.

@Kermit:
Another truth:
The kitchen knife was [b]not found to be compatible with the fatal wound. That "information" is not true.[/b] Official is: The knife doesn`t match. There were imprints of the knife used on Kercher left on the sheet at the crime scene. The "murder weapon" found at Sollecito's home is substantially bigger. It isn't the murder weapon. The only source claims that the knife was compatible with the fatal wound is truejustice.org.


But since all information from all sources is biased, this may be too.

I bet there are tons of forums devoted to the essential impossiblity of ever knowing anything. You might be more at home there.

Here's a little conundrum.

Is the statement "Everything I say is false" true or false?

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Offline Shirley


Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:48 pm

Posts: 376

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Jools wrote:
However, in the meantime since the first top five winners had been transferred to other prisons, it was decided to award the laurels to all the other participants. Amanda was third.


Ohhhh, so Marie came in 8th.
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Offline absfabulus


Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:43 am

Posts: 6

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
martin wrote:
Skeptical,
when will "italian dressing" be renamed as "freedom dressing" ?



I think that disaster has been averted. Incidentally, and I think it was mentioned here, Edda Mellas said last night on the LKL program that AK and RS would have to have gotten high and revved up, then gone out to kill, in the space of thirty minutes, between 9:15 and 9:45. She said that TOD was 9:45. Actually, I think she said 9:30 first and then corrected herself. The most amazing thing is that she said this was the prosecution's theory, or something like that.

I don't know why, but I think we will be seeing fewer appearances of this sort by the end of this week, at least for awhile.


I Hope so!!!

Hi Septical, Thank you for your warm welcome when I joined! I did read your comment but couldn't post at the time.

I wanted to also let any one whose interested know that The O'Reilly Factor will be talking about this case tonight. And the spin starts here.........

After Saturday night, I won't be tuning in. Just saw advertisement on Fox.
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Offline Shirley


Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:48 pm

Posts: 376

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Corrina wrote:
Hey, Scully's looking for you.

Survey says: Ignore the plant. Amoeba. Troll. Whatever.



Low life form in any case. Was out cruising on the Internet highway when suddenly a UFO swooped out of nowhere and the next thing he knew, here he was on this board. (Twilight Zone music here.)


Or the Star Wars cantina song. :)
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Offline martin


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:28 pm

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:38 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Jools wrote:
http://www.corrieredellumbria.it/news.asp?id=35
[/quote]

Thanks for the link Jools, if you open the link and then click "umbria", adobe reader opens a front page incuding a picture of amanda with the title: "amanda wants to work at the laundry - goto page 2-3, but these pages are blocked - maybe you can open page 2
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Offline Kermit


User avatar


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:37 am

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

mulder_01 wrote:
@Kermit:
Another truth: The kitchen knife was not found to be compatible with the fatal wound. That "information" is not true. Official is: The knife doesn`t match. There were imprints of the knife used on Kercher left on the sheet at the crime scene. The "murder weapon" found at Sollecito's home is substantially bigger. It isn't the murder weapon. The only source claims that the knife was compatible with the fatal wound is truejustice.org.

Amanda's and Meredith's DNA being present on the Double DNA Knife is a problem for both Raffaele and his ex-girlfriend, even if that knife is not the one which inflicted the mortal wound.

Mulder, I think that you're aware enough of this case, and in any case, you will have seen from the above posts and more extensive, prior posts on both the Double DNA Knife, and on what constitutes "Murder" in Italy, that even if there was an additional knife in the brutal, murderous attack on Meredith which caused the mortal wound, the apparent involvement of the Double DNA Knife is enough to contribute in a significant way (along with a lot of other evidence) to the "guilty" verdict.

Unless if you believe Raffaele's explanation that he was cooking with Meredith, accidentally pricked her with the knife, then immediately apologised.
=========================

Maybe you should better save your analytical skills and energy for the judges' report on Raffaele's and his ex-girlfriend's verdict and sentencing.


Last edited by Kermit on Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline martin


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:28 pm

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
martin wrote:
Skeptical,
when will "italian dressing" be renamed as "freedom dressing" ?



I think that disaster has been averted. Incidentally, and I think it was mentioned here, Edda Mellas said last night on the LKL program that AK and RS would have to have gotten high and revved up, then gone out to kill, in the space of thirty minutes, between 9:15 and 9:45. She said that TOD was 9:45. Actually, I think she said 9:30 first and then corrected herself. The most amazing thing is that she said this was the prosecution's theory, or something like that.
I don't know why, but I think we will be seeing fewer appearances of this sort by the end of this week, at least for awhile.


Skeptical, what means "TOD"?
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Offline anne


User avatar


Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:04 pm

Posts: 173

Location: Berlin Kreuzberg

Highscores: 3

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Jools wrote:
Hi Everyone,

Brace yourselves for another ride...
Another piece of c**p from Marie Pace, this time is a poem. I will put up the original (Italian version) as the CU articles tend to disappear fairly quickly. Here it goes:

"I have only one life": New verses from Amanda.

The title recalls the words spoken by her before the judges of the court. Knox other than the winning story has written also a poem.

Has even received recognition for it. With members of the public, within the prison, inmates and the organizers of the literary competition present. The student from Seattle thanked and smiled. That Marie Pace is the pen name of Amanda Knox, it’s said by this mini unofficial shaped award ceremony, which took place behind bars, present were the judging panel and some members of Perugia's charities. What revealed the anonymity were mainly the rough copies handwritten drafts and their content. Explicit. The reconstruction of the night of the death of Meredith. The "certamen" ((literary function)) dedicated to Aldo and Luigina Triduzzi had in the “top five” some other detainees as winners who since then have been published in the booklet by the publisher "La Voce".

However, in the meantime since the first top five winners had been transferred to other prisons, it was decided to award the laurels to all the other participants. Amanda was third. If the short story and the transposition narrative is of what perhaps Amanda Knox saw that night (though obviously hard to take as a confession), there is also this one poem signed by Marie Pace which yet from the title it transpires a deep pain of who is perhaps already conscious of having lost her life in a penitentiary cell. "I have only one life," is the title, which seems to be paired with the "Give me back my life" at the end of closing arguments in court.

Here is the full text, this time also unpublished:

"This is the only life I have and I follow like tracks of scraps from the dawn. This life admired by the various ambitions of my mind, like a register that holds between the arms the psychology the anthropology and history of art. This life that I feel like a knot around the shoulders, like a valley between the breasts, filled by tea fruit-gardens, public libraries, football (soccer) grounds, covered by granite blocks. This life that remembers vaguely and forgets easily, thus in a way categorizing the time as out moments, naked moments, smiling moments, asleep moments, letting them slide between them. This life in which I float in the center, like a zero in the infinite series of positive and negative experiences. This is the only life I have, and not even I can disentangle the blinking moments, with a ball of twenty one strands of Christmas light which shines, like a star, when you insert the plug.”

Several references more or less hidden, to the facts in the Meredith case.
Moreover, “this volume --as written in the preface by Feliciano Ballarani, a member of the board of directors of Perugia's voluntary Association-- is loaded with a big responsibility, to communicate through the innermost thoughts of the prisoners, with the outside."


Nice of them to call it a poem, but it ain't.
(this is the born in the middle of germany near Weimar Me speaking up)

Anyway, maybe it helps her coming to terms. Its a good thing to give the prisoners an opportunity to write and speak to the outside world.
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Offline mulder_01


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:52 pm

Posts: 5

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Corrina wrote:
Hey, Scully's looking for you. Survey says: Ignore the plant. Amoeba. Troll. Whatever.

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Low life form in any case. Was out cruising on the Internet highway when suddenly a UFO swooped out of nowhere and the next thing he knew, here he was on this board. (Twilight Zone music here.)


If you disagree with me, do so in a spirited manner but respectfully.


Last edited by mulder_01 on Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Emerald


User avatar


Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:53 am

Posts: 1706

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Larry King Live 07Dec09

Quote:
[Curt] KNOX: Well, there -- during the time frame in which Meredith lost her life and when Amanda was actually arrested, it was about a 90-hour time frame. During that 90 hours, Amanda was actually questioned and interrogated for over 41 hours, and it culminated in a 14-hour overnight, very aggressive interrogation.

She told us it's -- she has never been more scared in her entire life. She was asked to visualize a number of things. They prompted her towards Patrick Lumumba, and literally she described even in her testimony six to eight people circling her, shouting at her, questioning at her, hitting her in the back of the head.

And at that stage of the game, you're virtually willing to sign anything in order to get out of that situation. And that's a circumstance that if you take a look at it, across the world, you're going to find that a number of people do a number of things. And I believe that's exactly what happened in this case.

And one thing to point out here is that both of the statements that she made during that interrogation were actually thrown out by the Italian supreme court. So in this particular circumstance, yes, he was part of the trial, and yes, he was awarded something. But I believe in the appeal process, we're going to be able to show that she was essentially coerced into it, and therefore the civil settlement will go away.


http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/ ... kl.01.html

Curt Knox has been warned and warranted about saying this. They should arrest him.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

mulder_01 wrote:
Corrina wrote:
Hey, Scully's looking for you. Survey says: Ignore the plant. Amoeba. Troll. Whatever.

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Low life form in any case. Was out cruising on the Internet highway when suddenly a UFO swooped out of nowhere and the next thing he knew, here he was on this board. (Twilight Zone music here.)


If you disagree with me, do so in a spirited manner but respectfully.


This is wonderfully spirited. You are free to disregard any post or poster you want. The problem with trolls is that they are attention whores. The board becomes about them; they ignore substantive posts like Kermit's in order to play semantic games or work out their inner child's authority problems. It gets old; it really does. I am not a babysitter. Children need to find their mommies or their nearest daycare.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

martin wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
martin wrote:
Skeptical,
when will "italian dressing" be renamed as "freedom dressing" ?



I think that disaster has been averted. Incidentally, and I think it was mentioned here, Edda Mellas said last night on the LKL program that AK and RS would have to have gotten high and revved up, then gone out to kill, in the space of thirty minutes, between 9:15 and 9:45. She said that TOD was 9:45. Actually, I think she said 9:30 first and then corrected herself. The most amazing thing is that she said this was the prosecution's theory, or something like that.
I don't know why, but I think we will be seeing fewer appearances of this sort by the end of this week, at least for awhile.


Skeptical, what means "TOD"?


TOD= Time Of Death

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Offline absfabulus


Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:43 am

Posts: 6

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Emerald wrote:
Larry King Live 07Dec09

Quote:
[Curt] KNOX: Well, there -- during the time frame in which Meredith lost her life and when Amanda was actually arrested, it was about a 90-hour time frame. During that 90 hours, Amanda was actually questioned and interrogated for over 41 hours, and it culminated in a 14-hour overnight, very aggressive interrogation.

She told us it's -- she has never been more scared in her entire life. She was asked to visualize a number of things. They prompted her towards Patrick Lumumba, and literally she described even in her testimony six to eight people circling her, shouting at her, questioning at her, hitting her in the back of the head.

And at that stage of the game, you're virtually willing to sign anything in order to get out of that situation. And that's a circumstance that if you take a look at it, across the world, you're going to find that a number of people do a number of things. And I believe that's exactly what happened in this case.

And one thing to point out here is that both of the statements that she made during that interrogation were actually thrown out by the Italian supreme court. So in this particular circumstance, yes, he was part of the trial, and yes, he was awarded something. But I believe in the appeal process, we're going to be able to show that she was essentially coerced into it, and therefore the civil settlement will go away.


http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/ ... kl.01.html



Curt Knox has been warned and warranted about saying this. They should arrest him.


Hello Emerald,

I hadn't heard that Knox was warned.......If I missed it here my apology! But, since I'm pretty new at this could you tell me where I could go to read up?

Thanks!
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

OT))
I apologize for all the trollish eruptions since Friday night. As indicated, we have adopted a zero tolerance policy. Anyone who comes in and ignores the real discussion to push an agenda of their own will be banned. Sometimes without warning. Yes, it's true: mulder_01 is gone.

Someone who believes that nothing is knowable and that all "truths" are equally biased really has no business entering into a discussion like this one. Doesn't that seem pretty obvious?

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Offline Geologist


Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:31 pm

Posts: 83

Location: Leeds and Toronto

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Emerald wrote:
Larry King Live 07Dec09

Quote:

Curt Knox has been warned and warranted about saying this. They should arrest him.


This would have to be enforced in Italy right?

I think they feel they can get away with saying what they want in the States unfortunately.
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Offline Jools


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

martin wrote:
Jools wrote:
http://www.corrieredellumbria.it/news.asp?id=35


Thanks for the link Jools, if you open the link and then click "umbria", adobe reader opens a front page incuding a picture of amanda with the title: "amanda wants to work at the laundry - goto page 2-3, but these pages are blocked - maybe you can open page 2[/quote]

Hi Martin,

Anybody can open page 2, at the moment, the laundry article still there.
"Amanda cerca lavoro in lavanderia."
http://www.corrieredellumbria.it/news.asp?id=41

What I meant before was the poem article, in fact is gone now because is from yesterday, CU don't keep articles longer than a day, that's why I also put up the original in Italian in case any one wants to improve on the translation.
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Offline Jools


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

absfabulus wrote:
Emerald wrote:
Larry King Live 07Dec09

Quote:
[Curt] KNOX: Well, there -- during the time frame in which Meredith lost her life and when Amanda was actually arrested, it was about a 90-hour time frame. During that 90 hours, Amanda was actually questioned and interrogated for over 41 hours, and it culminated in a 14-hour overnight, very aggressive interrogation.

She told us it's -- she has never been more scared in her entire life. She was asked to visualize a number of things. They prompted her towards Patrick Lumumba, and literally she described even in her testimony six to eight people circling her, shouting at her, questioning at her, hitting her in the back of the head.

And at that stage of the game, you're virtually willing to sign anything in order to get out of that situation. And that's a circumstance that if you take a look at it, across the world, you're going to find that a number of people do a number of things. And I believe that's exactly what happened in this case.

And one thing to point out here is that both of the statements that she made during that interrogation were actually thrown out by the Italian supreme court. So in this particular circumstance, yes, he was part of the trial, and yes, he was awarded something. But I believe in the appeal process, we're going to be able to show that she was essentially coerced into it, and therefore the civil settlement will go away.


http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/ ... kl.01.html



Curt Knox has been warned and warranted about saying this. They should arrest him.


Hello Emerald,

I hadn't heard that Knox was warned.......If I missed it here my apology! But, since I'm pretty new at this could you tell me where I could go to read up?

Thanks!

Just Google Curt Knox and defamation and you will find it, in almost every language.
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Offline observer


Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:36 pm

Posts: 178

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Hi,

About a week or more ago, someone posted a link to a video, which I have seen before, and would like to view again. It has a series of Amanda's statements repeated in Italian in a deadpan way, with pictures of her or objects to go with the statements... do you know the one I mean? I have searched for it, but as I can't remember what it was called I have not been successful yet. I don't think it was on youtube, but another site. TIA for any help in locating it.
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Offline Bess


Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:41 pm

Posts: 69

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Geologist wrote:
Emerald wrote:
Larry King Live 07Dec09

Quote:

Curt Knox has been warned and warranted about saying this. They should arrest him.


This would have to be enforced in Italy right?

I think they feel they can get away with saying what they want in the States unfortunately.


I believe they were being interviewed last night while they were still in Italy.
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Offline equinox


User avatar


Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:22 pm

Posts: 140

Location: WA, USA

Highscores: 7

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:15 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

observer wrote:
Hi,

About a week or more ago, someone posted a link to a video, which I have seen before, and would like to view again. It has a series of Amanda's statements repeated in Italian in a deadpan way, with pictures of her or objects to go with the statements... do you know the one I mean? I have searched for it, but as I can't remember what it was called I have not been successful yet. I don't think it was on youtube, but another site. TIA for any help in locating it.


Amanda is Burning
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Offline Geologist


Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:31 pm

Posts: 83

Location: Leeds and Toronto

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:15 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Bess wrote:
Geologist wrote:
Emerald wrote:
Larry King Live 07Dec09

Quote:

Curt Knox has been warned and warranted about saying this. They should arrest him.


This would have to be enforced in Italy right?

I think they feel they can get away with saying what they want in the States unfortunately.


I believe they were being interviewed last night while they were still in Italy.


Thanks, it would certainly be interesting if they were picked up for this. I could only begin to imagine the press reports!
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Offline Stevo


Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:42 am

Posts: 16

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

absfabulus wrote:
Emerald wrote:
Larry King Live 07Dec09

Quote:
[Curt] KNOX: Well, there -- during the time frame in which Meredith lost her life and when Amanda was actually arrested, it was about a 90-hour time frame. During that 90 hours, Amanda was actually questioned and interrogated for over 41 hours, and it culminated in a 14-hour overnight, very aggressive interrogation.

She told us it's -- she has never been more scared in her entire life. She was asked to visualize a number of things. They prompted her towards Patrick Lumumba, and literally she described even in her testimony six to eight people circling her, shouting at her, questioning at her, hitting her in the back of the head.

And at that stage of the game, you're virtually willing to sign anything in order to get out of that situation. And that's a circumstance that if you take a look at it, across the world, you're going to find that a number of people do a number of things. And I believe that's exactly what happened in this case.

And one thing to point out here is that both of the statements that she made during that interrogation were actually thrown out by the Italian supreme court. So in this particular circumstance, yes, he was part of the trial, and yes, he was awarded something. But I believe in the appeal process, we're going to be able to show that she was essentially coerced into it, and therefore the civil settlement will go away.


http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/ ... kl.01.html



Curt Knox has been warned and warranted about saying this. They should arrest him.


Hello Emerald,

I hadn't heard that Knox was warned.......If I missed it here my apology! But, since I'm pretty new at this could you tell me where I could go to read up?

Thanks!



I read appeals can up to 5 years in Italy, CK gives the impression things will be all rosy within twelve months!
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Offline Kermit


User avatar


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:37 am

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:28 pm   Post subject: LIKE SUB-PRIME GARBAGE MORTGAGES   

You can spot a FOA talking point a mile off.

As soon as Raffaele and his ex-girlfriend were found guilty of murder, the Knox-Mellas clan issued a statement:

"We are extremely disappointed in the verdict rendered today against our daughter. While we always knew this was a possibility, we find it difficult to accept this verdict when we know that she is innocent, and that the prosecution has failed to explain why there is no evidence of Amanda in the room where Meredith was so horribly and tragically murdered ...."
Knox-Mellas statement after their daughter's conviction for the murder of Meredith Kercher

I saw the reference to limiting the evidence to Meredith's bedroom, and sure enough, over the last four days this discussion board and the rest of the world has been bombarded with insinuations that because of the supposedly limited amount of Amanda's DNA in the bedroom, we should look the other way.

It reminds me of this cartoon:


In the same way, we're seeing arguments which twist the concept of the "compatibility" of the Double DNA Knife with the mortal wound, and which ignore the observations / possibility that more than one knife was involved in the brutal, murderous attack on Meredith. Again, the argument seems to be "since it could be that another knife went in further than the Double DNA Knife, we should ignore the Double DNA Knife, or at least consider the persons who handled that knife as being uninvolved in the murderous attack on Meredith."



I don't buy it, and I don't think anybody else does. I think that only the FOA die-hards reinforce their insular thinking and primitive beliefs by preaching that the Emperor doesn't wear any clothes.


Last edited by Kermit on Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline dgfred


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:19 pm

Posts: 1082

Location: N.C., USA

Highscores: 13

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:29 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Just joining you guys and gals. Michael, Jester and Emerald can vouch for me from another forum. I have been lurking here for quite awhile.

Nothing new to post at the moment as I need to cruise some to look at parts of the forum I haven't been able to access until now.

Thanks to this forum and the people here giving great details and discussions regarding this case.
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Offline absfabulus


Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:43 am

Posts: 6

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Jools wrote:
absfabulus wrote:
Emerald wrote:
Larry King Live 07Dec09

Quote:
[Curt] KNOX: Well, there -- during the time frame in which Meredith lost her life and when Amanda was actually arrested, it was about a 90-hour time frame. During that 90 hours, Amanda was actually questioned and interrogated for over 41 hours, and it culminated in a 14-hour overnight, very aggressive interrogation.

She told us it's -- she has never been more scared in her entire life. She was asked to visualize a number of things. They prompted her towards Patrick Lumumba, and literally she described even in her testimony six to eight people circling her, shouting at her, questioning at her, hitting her in the back of the head.

And at that stage of the game, you're virtually willing to sign anything in order to get out of that situation. And that's a circumstance that if you take a look at it, across the world, you're going to find that a number of people do a number of things. And I believe that's exactly what happened in this case.

And one thing to point out here is that both of the statements that she made during that interrogation were actually thrown out by the Italian supreme court. So in this particular circumstance, yes, he was part of the trial, and yes, he was awarded something. But I believe in the appeal process, we're going to be able to show that she was essentially coerced into it, and therefore the civil settlement will go away.


http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/ ... kl.01.html



Curt Knox has been warned and warranted about saying this. They should arrest him.


Hello Emerald,

I hadn't heard that Knox was warned.......If I missed it here my apology! But, since I'm pretty new at this could you tell me where I could go to read up?

Thanks!

Just Google Curt Knox and defamation and you will find it, in almost every language.



Thanks Jools!!

I was just reading the LKL transcripts, UGHHHH. I haven't been able to stomach anymore of these people since Saturday nights horrendous coverage. Somehow, reading is much easier! (might check out O'Reilly tonight though, he may be a voice with reasoning?)

Hope when the parent's & FOA gang read the sentencing report, they realize they're lucky their kid only got 26 yrs. (wouldn't have been so lucky right here at home) But I doubt it......
A copy should be sent to the producer's of every show that allowed such blatant mis-representation by their guests/TH's regarding this case and the Italian system. (in the name of AK & her Italian ex-lover no less!)
May sound ridiculous, but I've actually thought about this.
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Offline martin


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:28 pm

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Jools wrote:
[Hi Martin,

Anybody can open page 2, at the moment, the laundry article still there.
"Amanda cerca lavoro in lavanderia."
http://www.corrieredellumbria.it/news.asp?id=41

What I meant before was the poem article, in fact is gone now because is from yesterday, CU don't keep articles longer than a day, that's why I also put up the original in Italian in case any one wants to improve on the translation.


Thanks Jools, your link worked, sometimes i have problems opening the CU page, don't know why
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Offline Jools


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Giuseppe Castellini, director and journalists Maria Francesca Bene, Luca Fiorucci e Antioco Fois, of “Il Giornale dell’Umbria” and who followed the case from the beginning will present their book “Meredith: cronaca di un delitto” tomorrow in Viterbo.
http://www.tusciaweb.it/notizie/2009/di ... redith.htm
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Offline observer


Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:36 pm

Posts: 178

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

equinox wrote:
observer wrote:
Hi,

About a week or more ago, someone posted a link to a video, which I have seen before, and would like to view again. It has a series of Amanda's statements repeated in Italian in a deadpan way, with pictures of her or objects to go with the statements... do you know the one I mean? I have searched for it, but as I can't remember what it was called I have not been successful yet. I don't think it was on youtube, but another site. TIA for any help in locating it.


Amanda is Burning


Thanks for that! At the 2.55 mark, the photo showing Amanda laughing as she poses with the (Gatling?) gun, there's a large green bag on the floor behind her, with a pattern on it, looks like it could be the one she had in the photos of her the day Meredith's body was found. (At 1.05 and 2.42 she also has a dark green/blue looking sling bag.)
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Offline Jools


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

absfabulus wrote:
Jools wrote:
absfabulus wrote:
Emerald wrote:
Larry King Live 07Dec09

Quote:
[Curt] KNOX: Well, there -- during the time frame in which Meredith lost her life and when Amanda was actually arrested, it was about a 90-hour time frame. During that 90 hours, Amanda was actually questioned and interrogated for over 41 hours, and it culminated in a 14-hour overnight, very aggressive interrogation.

She told us it's -- she has never been more scared in her entire life. She was asked to visualize a number of things. They prompted her towards Patrick Lumumba, and literally she described even in her testimony six to eight people circling her, shouting at her, questioning at her, hitting her in the back of the head.

And at that stage of the game, you're virtually willing to sign anything in order to get out of that situation. And that's a circumstance that if you take a look at it, across the world, you're going to find that a number of people do a number of things. And I believe that's exactly what happened in this case.

And one thing to point out here is that both of the statements that she made during that interrogation were actually thrown out by the Italian supreme court. So in this particular circumstance, yes, he was part of the trial, and yes, he was awarded something. But I believe in the appeal process, we're going to be able to show that she was essentially coerced into it, and therefore the civil settlement will go away.


http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/ ... kl.01.html



Curt Knox has been warned and warranted about saying this. They should arrest him.


Hello Emerald,

I hadn't heard that Knox was warned.......If I missed it here my apology! But, since I'm pretty new at this could you tell me where I could go to read up?

Thanks!

Just Google Curt Knox and defamation and you will find it, in almost every language.



Thanks Jools!!

I was just reading the LKL transcripts, UGHHHH. I haven't been able to stomach anymore of these people since Saturday nights horrendous coverage. Somehow, reading is much easier! (might check out O'Reilly tonight though, he may be a voice with reasoning?)

Hope when the parent's & FOA gang read the sentencing report, they realize they're lucky their kid only got 26 yrs. (wouldn't have been so lucky right here at home) But I doubt it......
A copy should be sent to the producer's of every show that allowed such blatant mis-representation by their guests/TH's regarding this case and the Italian system. (in the name of AK & her Italian ex-lover no less!)
May sound ridiculous, but I've actually thought about this.

O'Reilly a voice with reasoning... Is this a joke? :lol:
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Offline equinox


User avatar


Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:22 pm

Posts: 140

Location: WA, USA

Highscores: 7

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Pop Quiz: Who made these quotes?


Quote #1:
Then I don't remember anything else. There is such a lot going on in my head.'


Quote 2:
"It's all this really weird memory that I don't really remember. I cried... It was chaos"


Answer:

Quote #1: This one is easy to identify. This is of course Amanda immediately after explaining to the police that she was sitting in the kitchen covering her ears while Patrick Lumumba was raping and murdering Meredith in the next room.


Quote #2: This is Edda Mellas, (presumably being paid to speak) on ABC News 20/20 with Elizabeth Vargas. She is referring to her experience in the moments after the verdict of guilty is pronounced for Amanda and Raffaele.

interesting.. Was someone slapping Edda on the back of the head?
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Offline The Bard


User avatar


Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:46 pm

Posts: 2486

Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
OT))
I apologize for all the trollish eruptions since Friday night. As indicated, we have adopted a zero tolerance policy. Anyone who comes in and ignores the real discussion to push an agenda of their own will be banned. Sometimes without warning. Yes, it's true: mulder_01 is gone.

Someone who believes that nothing is knowable and that all "truths" are equally biased really has no business entering into a discussion like this one. Doesn't that seem pretty obvious?


cl-)

Thank goodness for that...

Amanda is now a convicted murderer. Rafaelle is now a convicted murderer. They are in prison for 26 and 25 year respectively. Nothing is going to change that. It's all over. It's all sound and fury.

_________________
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Offline The Bard


User avatar


Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:46 pm

Posts: 2486

Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:58 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

I have reformatted Marie Pace's poem in an effort to get some meaning out of it.

Nope.


Anyone?



This is the only life I have
and I follow like tracks of scraps from the dawn.
This life admired by the various ambitions of my mind,
like a register that holds between the arms the psychology
the anthropology
and history of art.
This life that I feel like a knot around the shoulders,
like a valley between the breasts,
filled by tea fruit-gardens, public libraries, football grounds,
covered by granite blocks.
This life that remembers vaguely and forgets easily,
thus in a way categorizing the time as out moments, naked moments, smiling moments,
asleep
moments,
letting them slide between them.
This life in which I float in the centre,
like a zero in the infinite series of positive and negative experiences.
This is the only life I have,
and not even I can disentangle the blinking moments,
with a ball of twenty one strands of Christmas lights
which shine,
like a star,
when you insert the plug.

_________________
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Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Only doubt over Amanda Knox conviction is exactly how they got it wrong
Flick through American television channels and it would seem that there is only one point of contention in the country's reaction to the murder conviction of Amanda Knox.

By Tom Leonard in New York
Published: 7:01PM GMT 08 Dec 2009


THE TELEGRAPH

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline justlooking


User avatar


Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:45 pm

Posts: 314

Location: England

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

The Bard wrote:
Another Meredith photo








Thanks Bard for posting these images of Meredith. It's obviously a mixture of sadness and happiness to see such vibrant images and to also know that the life captured has been so cruelly extinguished. It makes it even more depressing when compared to the abundant shots of the smiling Knox displayed so often in this trial. It's telling for me that when reading the Italian media on this case the headline invariably leads with "Meredith:", but in the US (and also here in the UK occasionally) it is Amanda that captures the attention of the leader writer. Now should be a time to let the image of Knox fade away and preserve the memory of Meredith. That is all that is left for her family. Unfortunately, the Knox campaigners are already engaged in such incredibly inaccurate and ultimately poisonous propaganda and there will be many more months of this to come it seems. How depressing that must feel for the Kerchers. I'm sure they will rise above it and give it the disdain it deserves.

_________________
Paul


Last edited by justlooking on Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

dgfred wrote:
Just joining you guys and gals. Michael, Jester and Emerald can vouch for me from another forum. I have been lurking here for quite awhile.

Nothing new to post at the moment as I need to cruise some to look at parts of the forum I haven't been able to access until now.

Thanks to this forum and the people here giving great details and discussions regarding this case.


Hi dgfred...welcome to PMF!! :)

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline absfabulus


Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:43 am

Posts: 6

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Jools wrote:
absfabulus wrote:
Jools wrote:
absfabulus wrote:
Emerald wrote:
Larry King Live 07Dec09

Quote:
[Curt] KNOX: Well, there -- during the time frame in which Meredith lost her life and when Amanda was actually arrested, it was about a 90-hour time frame. During that 90 hours, Amanda was actually questioned and interrogated for over 41 hours, and it culminated in a 14-hour overnight, very aggressive interrogation.

She told us it's -- she has never been more scared in her entire life. She was asked to visualize a number of things. They prompted her towards Patrick Lumumba, and literally she described even in her testimony six to eight people circling her, shouting at her, questioning at her, hitting her in the back of the head.

And at that stage of the game, you're virtually willing to sign anything in order to get out of that situation. And that's a circumstance that if you take a look at it, across the world, you're going to find that a number of people do a number of things. And I believe that's exactly what happened in this case.

And one thing to point out here is that both of the statements that she made during that interrogation were actually thrown out by the Italian supreme court. So in this particular circumstance, yes, he was part of the trial, and yes, he was awarded something. But I believe in the appeal process, we're going to be able to show that she was essentially coerced into it, and therefore the civil settlement will go away.


http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/ ... kl.01.html



Curt Knox has been warned and warranted about saying this. They should arrest him.


Hello Emerald,

I hadn't heard that Knox was warned.......If I missed it here my apology! But, since I'm pretty new at this could you tell me where I could go to read up?

Thanks!

Just Google Curt Knox and defamation and you will find it, in almost every language.



Thanks Jools!!

I was just reading the LKL transcripts, UGHHHH. I haven't been able to stomach anymore of these people since Saturday nights horrendous coverage. Somehow, reading is much easier! (might check out O'Reilly tonight though, he may be a voice with reasoning?)

Hope when the parent's & FOA gang read the sentencing report, they realize they're lucky their kid only got 26 yrs. (wouldn't have been so lucky right here at home) But I doubt it......
A copy should be sent to the producer's of every show that allowed such blatant mis-representation by their guests/TH's regarding this case and the Italian system. (in the name of AK & her Italian ex-lover no less!)
May sound ridiculous, but I've actually thought about this.

O'Reilly a voice with reasoning... Is this a joke? :lol:



I won't watch another talk/news show that features this case.......too sickening. As for O'Reilly, The Spin Starts Here, Factor--LOLOLOL-I WAS j/k!
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Offline Emerald


User avatar


Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:53 am

Posts: 1706

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

dgfred wrote:
Just joining you guys and gals. Michael, Jester and Emerald can vouch for me from another forum. I have been lurking here for quite awhile.

Nothing new to post at the moment as I need to cruise some to look at parts of the forum I haven't been able to access until now.

Thanks to this forum and the people here giving great details and discussions regarding this case.


Yeah, I'll vouch for ya. If it matters.

Welcome, dgfred. hugz-)
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Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Amanda Knox Defender Asks: Where's the Science Behind Evidence of "Strange" Behavior?
By Nina Shapiro in Crime & Punishment


SEATTLE WEEKLY

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline The 411


User avatar


Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:49 pm

Posts: 1386

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:04 pm   Post subject: WHERE AM I? WHY AM I HERE???   

martin wrote:
Kermit wrote:

The truth is that Raffaele didn't open his mouth during the trial.



But now he starts talking. After the verdict, his lawyers visited him in jail and he said:
"Where am I? Why am I still here?"


:? Is it just me...or does Raffaele seem to be
channeling the late
Admiral James Stockdale, whose opening in the
1992 US Vice Presidential debate was:
"Who am I? Why am I here?" :?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKpX-5jQjQ0&NR=1
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Offline sam spade


User avatar


Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:16 pm

Posts: 59

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

FYI
Missrepresented at Lies Our Mothers Told Us is posting again after a break.
I enjoy reading your thoughts and greatly appreciate the information.
Thanks, All.
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Offline sam spade


User avatar


Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:16 pm

Posts: 59

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

This is part of a quote from today's blog from Missrepresented:


"Friends of Amanda: Accusations of Ethnocentrism and Anti-Italianism

The ‘Friends of Amanda’ (FOA) PR campaign has been accused of anti-Italianism and ethnocentrism itself. On many occasions representatives of or writers sympathetic to the FOA cause, including Seattle defence attorney Anne Bremner, Timothy Egan and Douglas Preston have made defamatory remarks about the mental state of the chief prosecutor Giuliano Mignini and about the Italian Justice system. Mignini has responded by taking legal action against the West Seattle Herald for comments which labelled him ‘mentally unstable’ and accused him of trying to further his own career by prosecuting Amanda for the murder.

I don’t need to tell you that these comments are ridiculous and extremely offensive. Indeed the Italian judiciary have been remarkably silent about the treatment handed to them by the American and British press. At no point have any of the Italian lawyers involved in the case made defamatory remarks about the American legal system, the mental state of those acting for the FOA on Amanda’s behalf or individuals involved in analysing the case who are supportive to Amanda. On the contrary American representatives for Amanda and the FOA have done all of this and more to the Italian Judiciary, the Italian people and those who believed the evidence against Amanda and Raffaele was strong.

Some of the comments made in articles and interviews on (predominantly) US TV networks have been profoundly embarrassing and upsetting for the Italian people and have (understandably) caused a backlash in support for Amanda in Italy. Comments and snide remarks aside, this smear campaign ‘technique’ is merely smoke and mirrors designed to draw attention away from the DNA evidence used to convict them and the fact that neither Amanda Knox nor Raffaele Sollecito had a consistent alibi for their whereabouts on the night of the murder.

Relentlessly pursuing an ethnocentric and anti-Italian criticism of the trial by constant unfair comment and comparison between two very different legal systems and then claiming ‘anti-Americanism’ when the outcome is not as expected is extremely hypocritical. Different does not mean inadequate. The Italian legal system is steeped in history and far more complex and structured than the FOA will have you believe. Amanda and Raffaele were afforded many advantages and excellent legal representation. Amanda’s defence lawyer himself is of the opinion that the trial was conducted fairly.

Differences in legal systems aside. Meredith Kercher was murdered in Italy. It is therefore not in the jurisdiction of any US investigator or lawyer to investigate or attempt to influence. Can you imagine what would happen if the Italian government attempted to influence the progress of an American trial then claimed anti-Italianism when the verdict didn’t go their way?

The idea of the US Secretary of State intervening in this case is ridiculous. Hillary Clinton has far more important things to do than bail out every American who gets into trouble abroad (even if they are considered political prisoners the US cannot always successfully intervene). This case is not a matter of national security and it doesn’t represent general foreign policy interests. Ms Clinton and the Senator demanding the investigation should be very careful. Remember what happened last time an American official tried to intervene on Amanda’s behalf? Judge Michael Heavey wrote a letter to Italy’s justice minister on his official headed paper which was so full of inaccuracies he later had to apologise.

It also appears that the suggestion of interference by the US Secretary of State has unnerved not only Amanda’s legal team and those in charge of successfully prosecuting her, but also Meredith’s mother Arline Kercher who, in comments made to the Sun newspaper quite rightly expresses her distaste, saying: “We were not exactly given special treatment. I can’t see there was this anti-American thing.” And poor Arline is spot on, in fact there have been several instances where (predominantly) US commenters on the case have been distinctly anti-victim and made comments which are extremely offensive to Meredith and her family. Meredith’s corpse has even been shown on Italian television. The only person who has suffered any discrimination is the only person that no longer has a voice of her own: Meredith.

More Spin

Fortunately for Meredith’s long suffering family it seems the US media is once again misleading its audience. Headlines screaming ‘Hillary Clinton Meeting with US Senator to Discuss Knox Case” are exaggerated to say the least. Just because Clinton says she will meet with the Senator doesn’t mean she can or will intervene in Amanda’s case. This has been very carefully contrived to keep the story of Amanda’s plight in the news and at the centre of a very well manipulated public audience."
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Offline The Bard


User avatar


Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:46 pm

Posts: 2486

Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

justlooking wrote:
The Bard wrote:
Another Meredith photo








Thanks Bard for posting these images of Meredith. It's obviously a mixture of sadness and happiness to see such vibrant images and to also know that the life captured has been so cruelly extinguished. It makes it even more depressing when compared to the abundant shots of the smiling Knox displayed so often in this trial. It's telling for me that when reading the Italian media on this case the headline invariably leads with "Meredith:", but in the US (and also here in the UK occasionally) it is Amanda that captures the attention of the leader writer. Now should be a time to let the image of Knox fade away and preserve the memory of Meredith. That is all that is left for her family. Unfortunately, the Knox campaigners are already engaged in such incredibly inaccurate and ultimately poisonous propaganda and there will be many more months of this to come it seems. How depressing that must feel for the Kerchers. I'm sure they will rise above it and give it the disdain it deserves.


Totally agree. I love those two pictures, as they just show a mischievousness in her smile that makes you really connect. I have seldom seen a person so photogenic - not in the sense of her being pretty - but in the sense that the camera seems to capture her spirit with such ease. Maybe that is why so many people have connected with her so strongly. She just says 'Life!'. All that youth and innocence in her smile, and optimism. Her photos makes me think of a time when everything was new and the world was young.

If there is one thing I take away from this whole case it is a deeper awareness of the centrality and importance of the victim. I have never empathised with a victim so closely, and since following this case I have noticed myself thinking more and more about the circumstances surrounding reported crime - what it would mean to the victim's family, and the impact of violent crime. I will never skim over a news story again. In this way I think Meredith's life has had great meaning for me, in reconnecting me with something that becomes blunted by the relentless output from the news media, where it every story is a product, churned out and moved on from, even as this story itself is being moved on from now, slowly. It has reconnected me with my humanity, my imagination and my empathy, and for that I am indebted.

_________________
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Offline observer


Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:36 pm

Posts: 178

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

I have to admit, I am confused about when Guede was arrested in Milan for breaking into a school, and just how many run ins with the police he might have had before Meredith's murder. Then there's this in the Daily Mail -

Quote:
Disturbingly, police failed to act against Guede, despite having clear evidence of him committing break-ins or burglaries – some of them armed with a knife – at least three times in the weeks leading to Meredith’s murder.

On September 27, 2007 – five weeks before the killing – Perugia bar tender Cristian Tramantano heard a noise downstairs in his home and found Guede wandering around with a large knife.

Tramantano recognised Guede from his work in a nightclub. There was a confrontation between the two, ending when Guede ran away.

On four occasions, Tramantano went to Perugia’s central police station to report the break-in, identify Guede as the culprit and to detail how the intruder was armed and threatened him. On each occasion, he was ignored and police refused to log his complaint.

The following weekend, there was a break-in at an English-speaking nursery school in Milan in which
€2,000 and a digital camera were stolen. The school owner, Maria Antoinette Salvadori del Prato, reported it to her local police station.

Three weeks later, on Saturday, October 27 – one week before the murder – Mrs Prato arrived at the school early in the morning with a locksmith to replace the front door, only to be confronted by Guede standing in the main school entrance.

Police were called and Guede questioned. A stolen laptop, digital camera and a ten-inch kitchen knife were found in his backpack.

But instead of being arrested and charged, Guede was merely escorted to Milan central railway station and placed on a train back to Perugia.

In the interim, on the weekend of October 13, there had been a break-in at the office of lawyers Paolo Brocchi and Luigi Palazzoli in which a first-floor window was smashed – similar to the break-in at Meredith’s house.

A computer and other items were stolen. They were later found in Guede’s possession but he was neither arrested nor charged.

This series of crimes and the absence of police action has led several of Knox’s defence team to believe that Guede was very likely a police informant being protected by someone within the force. If, as one associate of the defence team says, that is the case then it must be investigated, as that failure to act left Guede free to murder Meredith.



Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z0Z8boKZTg



Please tell me if any or all of this is true. I have not come across so many "incidents" before.
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Offline Nell

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:38 pm

Posts: 5041

Images: 0

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

capealadin wrote:
ok, don't speak german. goodnight all. just caught the last part of the movie August Rush. Such beautiful music, and the tears just flowed. Meredith loved to dance, and Amanda loves her music. Such a tragic story. Am counting my blessings, and want to thank everyone on this site for wanting justice. How wonderful that you take the time to express your feelings, and FEEL. It has been very humbling to realize how many smart and funny people are out there. I have always thought of myself as well read, and pretty quick on the uptake. Wrong. I learn from all of you. G-d Bless.



The bottom line of the Spiegel article is that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito wouldn't have been accused, let alone found guilty, in a German or US courtroom.

Their explanation for the outcome of the trial is that Italy had to save face.

Quote:
Wenn Amanda und Raffaele mangels Beweisen freigesprochen worden wären, hätte das die gesamte bisherige Arbeit der Justiz in Zweifel gezogen, etwa die lange Untersuchungshaft, oder die Ergebnisse der (teilweise mehr als schlampigen) Spurensicherung.


In case Amanda and Raffaele would have been acquitted due to a lack of evidence, it would have raised doubts about the justice system, like the long pre trial imprisonment or the results of the (partially more than sloppy) forensics work.


I am not a native English speaker, so if you spot an error, please feel free to correct me. Thanks.


Other experts seem to differ very much about the conclusions that can be drawn from the secured evidence at the crime scene. Most seem to agree that the DNA amounts found are not "incriminating". It still does not explain Amanda's and Raffaele's lies. The most compelling evidence in my opinion is beside the cleaned bloody footprints and blood from the victim, the staged break in and the differing statements from Raffaele and Amanda, that they didn't call the police, but claimed they did. A necessary lie in their opinion, because they couldn't give a reasonable explanation why they wouldn't have called the police right away, finding blood in the house. So they said they were waiting outside for the police to arrive. This was fatal.
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Offline Jools


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

I just read: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/ ... kl.01.html

As most of you probably gathered English is not my first language. I like to ask, what's with Edda Mellas saying "you know" every other word? In this use as a filler while allowing time for her brain to come up with her best answer or is it a speech impediment?
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Offline observer


Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:36 pm

Posts: 178

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Jools wrote:
I just read: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/ ... kl.01.html

As most of you probably gathered English is not my first language. I like to ask, what's with Edda Mellas saying "you know" every other word? In this use as a filler while allowing time for her brain to come up with her best answer or is it a speech impediment?


It's a bit like when some Italian speakers insert "capito?" liberally into their speech.
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Offline anne


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Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:04 pm

Posts: 173

Location: Berlin Kreuzberg

Highscores: 3

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:38 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Nell wrote:
The bottom line of the Spiegel article is that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito wouldn't have been accused, let alone found guilty, in a German or US courtroom.

Their explanation for the outcome of the trial is that Italy had to save face.

Quote:
In case Amanda and Raffaele would have been acquitted due to a lack of evidence, it would have raised doubts about the justice system, like the long pre trial imprisonment or the results of the (partially more than sloppy) forensics work.




Its not "their explanation" its Alexander Smoltczyks explanation....
The thing is, he really is an award-winning journalist ("Egon-Erwin-Kisch Prize" - The German equivalent to the Pulitzer Prize and "Henri-Nannen-Prize - which is awarded every year for outstanding performance in printed journalism, is also committed to the professional ethos of journalism) ...not like others...you know...the cook and stuff....


Last edited by anne on Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Jools


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

observer wrote:
Jools wrote:
I just read: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/ ... kl.01.html

As most of you probably gathered English is not my first language. I like to ask, what's with Edda Mellas saying "you know" every other word? In this use as a filler while allowing time for her brain to come up with her best answer or is it a speech impediment?


It's a bit like when some Italian speakers insert "capito?" liberally into their speech.


Thanks Observer,

In her case is really abusing it.
:)
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Offline The 411


User avatar


Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:49 pm

Posts: 1386

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:13 pm   Post subject: MY FAIR LADY   

Jools wrote:
I just read: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/ ... kl.01.html

As most of you probably gathered English is not my first language. I like to ask, what's with Edda Mellas saying "you know" every other word? In this use as a filler while allowing time for her brain to come up with her best answer or is it a speech impediment?


Jools:

On TV, Edda also recently said (about Amanda's relationship with Meredith):
"HER and Meredith were good friends." eee-)
(like nails on a chalk board, both for what she says and HOW she says it!)
I don't want to sound like the Grammar Police. Lord only knows I make my share of mistakes... but, as a TEACHER, Edda READY needs to set a better example.
To paraphrase "My Fair Lady" character Henry Higgins,
(Sing along with me, those who know the music...) mul-)
Edda is...
"Condemned by every syllable she utters
By right she should be taken out and hung,
For the cold-blooded murder of the English tongue...

Heavens! What a noise!
This is what the "AMERICAN"population,
Calls an elementary education???

Why can't AMERICANS teach their children how to speak?
This verbal class distinction, by now,
Should be antique. ..
(As for Edda...)
I'd rather hear a choir singing flat.
Chickens cackling in a barn...


One common language I'm afraid we'll never get.
Oh, why can't EDDA learn to set...a good example
to people whose
English is painful to your ears?



PS: Next time: We'll do The Sound of Music's
"How do you solve a problem like Marie Pace?"
..."When I READ her, I'm confused, out of focus and bemused...and I never know exactly where I ammmmm."
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Offline juliet


Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:08 pm

Posts: 15

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:14 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Hi. Reading knox's short story and yummi's comments, I agree - was also struck by some similarities to KNox's 'confession' story with Lumumba. I have always wondered which aspects of this confession story were true. Did she actually have a more onlooking role than the prosecution have made out, or is this just wishful thinking on her part when she is confessing, and in her story? The prosecution needed to give a fairly firm narrative that explained her DNA on the knife by her holding it and using it, and indeed kokomani has her with the knife in hand outside the cottage, but her dna could have been explained by her simply cleaning the knife, or holding it at some point, nobody really knows who gave the fatal knife blows. Also, it surprised me slightly how the prosecution put Knox very much as dominant force in the attack; my feeling is that she and Sollecito were a fatal combination together, and you wonder how much his obsessions with knives and manga steered the events of the night. I noticed that psychologist David Wilson (was referred to by someone in the last few days, and his interview was linked) who studied the diaries of all 3 seemed to feel that Sollecito had a more dominant role than the prosecution allege. I am just talking out loud I wondered what others think, I feel that while Knox might be bossy in a slightly stupid self-centred sort of way, Sollecito may also haven driven things more subtly in his own way and with his own motivations, the combination as we know being so tragic.
Other point - was also surprised that K and S got fewer years than Guede and that the jury seemed so compassionate towards them from their comments. From afar it is very difficult to see Knox as other than a self-obsessed calculating manipulator. Who knows maybe her 'confession' and her story were both only more manipulation.
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Offline nathan_05


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:04 pm

Posts: 3

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:22 pm   Post subject: Re: LIKE SUB-PRIME GARBAGE MORTGAGES   

I am not a native English speaker, so if you spot an error, please feel free to correct me.

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
. Anyone who comes in and ignores the real discussion to push an agenda of their own will be banned. Sometimes without warning. Yes, it's true: mulder_01 is gone.
Someone who believes that nothing is knowable and that all "truths" are equally biased really has no business entering into a discussion like this one. Doesn't that seem pretty obvious?


I don`t believe that nothing is knowable and that all "truths" are equally biased. Don't get me wrong (if you can). I was banned for giving my point of view.
My point is that everyone who`s wrinting "Amanda could be innocent" is treated as brainless FAUX-NEWS watching redneck, wich sucks.

You are just as ignorant and stupid as the FAUX NEWS CHANNEL. I just give my point of view and as an result i have been permanently banned from this board. Do you unterstand this by "troll"?

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
The problem with trolls is that they are attention whores. The board becomes about them; they ignore substantive posts like Kermit's in order to play semantic games or work out their inner child's authority problems. It gets old; it really does.


I don`t ignore the real discussion. I hope you can read. If so you would know that i don`t ignore posts like Kermit's in order.
If I will be banned again for having my own opinion about this case you are not better than the biased Cable News Channels.

Kermit wrote:
In the same way, we're seeing arguments which twist the concept of the "compatibility" of the Double DNA Knife with the mortal wound, and which ignore the observations / possibility that more than one knife was involved in the brutal, murderous attack on Meredith.


Please read the best answer. Very interesting. I hope this smart answer will help to make this discussion more fair and balanced.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 203AAYxCqI
This best annswer is interesting too because the user grew up in the town next to Knox.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 559AAgw7wi


Last edited by nathan_05 on Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline tamale


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:13 pm

Posts: 615

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Greetings...I am a reformed lurker who has followed the case from many different angles.

Did authorities find any bloody clothing from AK or RS?
Is it true that the "double DNA" knife was found a box in the back of RS's closet? Was the DNA on the tip a match or compatible (with Meridith)?
Thank you
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Offline bibi


Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 6:26 pm

Posts: 13

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:40 pm   Post subject: Re: THE JUDGES AND JURY KNOW BETTER THAN WE ....   

I'm still concerned about the half-truths and rumors that seem to be continually posted on this board. And by the way, I agree with the verdict. But, If this board is going to compete against the FOA'ers and lousy media and win, you're gonna have to check your sources. The TRUTH is: (MY ADDITIONS IN ALL CAPS) I know this is being picky, but these kind of things really bug me about this case.

The truth is that Raffaele didn't open his mouth during the trial. I BELIEVE THAT HE MADE AT LEAST ONE STATEMENT TO SAY THAT SOME PIECE OF EVIDENCE "WAS IMPOSSIBLE"

The truth is that one of the first times that Amanda opened her mouth after over a year of non-cooperation with the investigation, was to clarify the size of her personal vibrator.

The truth is that Raffaele says that Amanda was out of his apartment for four hours on the night of the murder, while she says she was there. I THINK HE STATED THAT HE WASN'T SURE IF SHE WAS THERE ALL NIGHT OR NOT.

The truth is that - in spite of FOA's explicit denials of any relation whatsoever - Amanda partied and smoked marijuana with Rudy prior to the crime.

The truth is that Amanda's DNA is mixed with Meredith's blood in several different locations around the cottage.

The truth is that Raffaele's DNA is on Meredith's bra clasp. His defence does not deny that, but claims that it could be due to contamination, a theoretical possibility, but one which has never affected the Perugia forensic team in the past and for which there is no indication of occurrence in this case.

The truth is that there is a barefoot footprint in the victim's blood, which is too small to be Rudy's (whose footprints in any case are shoeprints).

Etc, etc, etc.

Do you want more truths?

I have been personally convinced since the beginning of this case that all three suspects (and now murder convicts, pending appeal) have not been upfront, nor sincere, nor honest in most of their statements. This opinion is inherently true in the sense that Amanda and Raffaele invoked their rights to silence for over a year during the course of the investigation (and Raffaele all through the trial), and that Rudy's statements require leaps of faith to swallow whole which few people will afford him.[/quote]
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Offline Tiziano


Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:06 am

Posts: 714

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:44 pm   Post subject: Re: MY FAIR LADY You KNOW   

The 411 wrote:
Jools wrote:
I just read: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/ ... kl.01.html

As most of you probably gathered English is not my first language. I like to ask, what's with Edda Mellas saying "you know" every other word? In this use as a filler while allowing time for her brain to come up with her best answer or is it a speech impediment?


Jools:

On TV, Edda also recently said (about Amanda's relationship with Meredith):
"HER and Meredith were good friends." eee-)
(like nails on a chalk board, both for what she says and HOW she says it!)
I don't want to sound like the Grammar Police. Lord only knows I make my share of mistakes... but, as a TEACHER, Edda READY needs to set a better example.
To paraphrase "My Fair Lady" character Henry Higgins,
(Sing along with me, those who know the music...) mul-)
Edda is...
"Condemned by every syllable she utters
By right she should be taken out and hung,
For the cold-blooded murder of the English tongue...

Heavens! What a noise!
This is what the "AMERICAN"population,
Calls an elementary education???

Why can't AMERICANS teach their children how to speak?
This verbal class distinction, by now,
Should be antique. ..
(As for Edda...)
I'd rather hear a choir singing flat.
Chickens cackling in a barn...


One common language I'm afraid we'll never get.
Oh, why can't EDDA learn to set...a good example
to people whose
English is painful to your ears?



PS: Next time: We'll do The Sound of Music's
"How do you solve a problem like Marie Pace?"
..."When I READ her, I'm confused, out of focus and bemused...and I never know exactly where I ammmmm."


EDDA: YOU KNOW what I think, YOU KNOW?

CURT: Well, YOU KNOW I don't, but YOU KNOW Preston was telling me s'thing the other day, YOU KNOW .....

EDDA: Yeahhhhhhhhhh AHHHHHHHHH YOU KNOW Curt, he's such a clever guy YOU KNOW ..... Most of the time YOU KNOW I don't know WTF he's getting at YOU KNOW

CURT: Sheeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzzzzz Edda, YOU KNOW you've taken the words right out my mouth YOU KNOW!!! YOU KNOW that Waterworks TM guy was saying the other day YOU KNOW the one who's reeeeeeal smart and even better edookated than we are ... YOU KNOW the one as has a PHD in plant rooting... YOU KNOW who I mean YOU KNOW?

EDDA: YOU KNOW Curt I think my mobile phones are ringing again, YOU KNOW ... It's probably Francolino Il Magnifico YOU KNOW the one, the little dago guy who's so far up himself that he can see daylight YOU KNOW ringing to explain what that nasty guy from that Curry della Sarah rag said about me & you YOU KNOW

Get the picture Jools? YOU KNOW I think you just MIGHT OF YOU KNOW!!!!

And BTW, dear 411, could I please join the choir: You KNOW I'm practising reeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaalllllllll hard right now YOU KNOW!
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Offline The Bard


User avatar


Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:46 pm

Posts: 2486

Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:48 pm   Post subject: Re: LIKE SUB-PRIME GARBAGE MORTGAGES   

nathan_05 wrote:
I am not a native English speaker, so if you spot an error, please feel free to correct me.

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
. Anyone who comes in and ignores the real discussion to push an agenda of their own will be banned. Sometimes without warning. Yes, it's true: mulder_01 is gone.
Someone who believes that nothing is knowable and that all "truths" are equally biased really has no business entering into a discussion like this one. Doesn't that seem pretty obvious?


I don`t believe that nothing is knowable and that all "truths" are equally biased. Don't get me wrong (if you can). I was banned for giving my point of view.
My point is that everyone who`s wrinting "Amanda could be innocent" is treated as brainless FAUX-NEWS watching redneck, wich sucks.

You are just as ignorant and stupid as the FAUX NEWS CHANNEL. I just give my point of view and as an result i have been permanently banned from this board. Do you unterstand this by "troll"?

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
The problem with trolls is that they are attention whores. The board becomes about them; they ignore substantive posts like Kermit's in order to play semantic games or work out their inner child's authority problems. It gets old; it really does.


I don`t ignore the real discussion. I hope you can read. If so you would know that i don`t ignore posts like Kermit's in order.
If I will be banned again for having my own opinion about this case you are not better than the biased Cable News Channels.

Kermit wrote:
In the same way, we're seeing arguments which twist the concept of the "compatibility" of the Double DNA Knife with the mortal wound, and which ignore the observations / possibility that more than one knife was involved in the brutal, murderous attack on Meredith.


Please read the best answer. Very interesting. I hope this smart answer will help to make this discussion more fair and balanced.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 203AAYxCqI


nathan_05 - If Skep banned you it was because you are not welcome here. It is wrong to then register under another name in order to post. The 'Yahoo' answer you direct people to contains so many factual errors I would not know where to begin. People who arrive with an agenda like this, from past experience, are not worth engaging in debate, since they are not willing to listen. It becomes a pointless exercise. Any valid point you may have is lost when you use these tactics. I am afraid you have already lost the argument.

If you look back over this board, the whole board for the last however many months, you will see that all the points you raise have been covered, debated and discussed. There have been many doubters, many who have objected and argued the fine and complex details of the evidence. All have done so with open minds and a certain humility. You display neither of these traits and as such are unlikely to get very much patience. This board is known for its openness and fair hearing of all sides of the argument. Sadly for you, you have arrived after the horse has bolted and all the arguments are over. You are too late for the party and the convicted murderer Amanda Knox and the convicted murderer Rafaelle Sollecito are now in prison for 26 and 25 years respectively.

_________________
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Offline nathan_05


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:04 pm

Posts: 3

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

I forgot: This best annswer is interesting too because the user grew up in the town next to Knox.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 559AAgw7wi
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Offline The Bard


User avatar


Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:46 pm

Posts: 2486

Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

nathan_05 wrote:
I forgot: This best annswer is interesting too because the user grew up in the town next to Knox.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 203AAYxCqI


If a Yahoo 'Best Answer' is the best you can come up with then it speaks VOLUMES. At least be the author of your own objections! I think it is time you were in bed nathan...

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Offline nathan_05


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:04 pm

Posts: 3

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:03 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

The Bard wrote:
nathan_05 wrote:
I forgot: This best annswer is interesting too because the user grew up in the town next to Knox.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 203AAYxCqI


If a Yahoo 'Best Answer' is the best you can come up with then it speaks VOLUMES. At least be the author of your own objections! I think it is time you were in bed nathan...


Sorry this link i quote is wrong. I found a user who grew up in the town next to Knox. Here is thr right one:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 559AAgw7wi

"I've been reading this a lot because I grew up in the town next to Knox, and was studying abroad in France the same time she was in Italy so it's been very interesting for me. When I first started researching, it was pretty clear she was guilty- changing her story, being weird and doing cartwheels before questioning. Then I started reading more about it and the most I discover, the clearer it is that she is not guilty. For whatever reason, the world seems to have a sick fascination with this whole idea of "sex game gone wrong", but there is no way that this girl from Seattle suburbia was that morbid. They claim she's interested in darkness and sex because she has quotes from Kill Bill on her myspace page? I love that movie, and I take stinkbugs outside rather than killing them. I literally can't hurt a fly.
If you read into it, the first story she told the police was the one she continues to tell, that she was with her boyfriend the whole night. After 14 hours of questioning and being yelled at by police (my experiences with italian authority figures is that they have a chip on their shoulder about americans...understandable sometimes) and being called guilty, she imagined that she could have been there, and what must have happened was that she plugged her ears. However she also wrote a letter to them the next day stating that "it seemed unlikely and she didn't remember it that way" and has continued to stick with her same story that she was with her boyfriend.
If you also look at the situation, it seems suspicious that Rudy Guede, who has already been convicted for the murder, had DNA, hair, footprints, fingerprints, and even semen in the body of Meredith Kercher. But there was barely any evidence of Knox or her boyfriend, even though they clearly spent more time in the house than a vagrant criminal. Does that mean that Knox and her boyfriend were wearing HAZMAT suits during the sex game? There's no way they could have cleaned up all evidence of them and left the evidence of Guerde. Also, when originally questioned, Guede told police no one was in the house with him, and didn't even know who knox and her boyfriend were. Why would they suddenly be wanting to have an orgy with him?

The whole thing is just too suspicious, and I really think that she just got very unlucky, and probably handled the situation wrong. I feel really sorry for her, especially since all of my friends that went to the same University as her just graduated, and she should have been there with them."
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Offline The Bard


User avatar


Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:46 pm

Posts: 2486

Location: UK

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:07 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

nathan_05 wrote:
The Bard wrote:
nathan_05 wrote:
I forgot: This best annswer is interesting too because the user grew up in the town next to Knox.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 203AAYxCqI


If a Yahoo 'Best Answer' is the best you can come up with then it speaks VOLUMES. At least be the author of your own objections! I think it is time you were in bed nathan...


Sorry this link i quote is wrong. I found a user who grew up in the town next to Knox. Here is thr right one:


Could I direct the Honourable Gentleman to the answer I gave earlier...

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Offline Jester


User avatar


Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:24 pm

Posts: 2500

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:11 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

dgfred, Good to see you ... I think you'll really enjoy discussing the case with people that have actually read about the case.
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Offline The Bard


User avatar


Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:46 pm

Posts: 2486

Location: UK

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:11 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

p.s Oh, and do you know what I find "just too suspicious" nathan??

Amanda's footprints in the murdered girl's BLOOD.

Give me a break.

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Offline Jester


User avatar


Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:24 pm

Posts: 2500

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:14 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

equinox wrote:
Pop Quiz: Who made these quotes?

Quote #1:
Then I don't remember anything else. There is such a lot going on in my head.'

Quote 2:
"It's all this really weird memory that I don't really remember. I cried... It was chaos"


Answer:

Quote #1: This one is easy to identify. This is of course Amanda immediately after explaining to the police that she was sitting in the kitchen covering her ears while Patrick Lumumba was raping and murdering Meredith in the next room.

Quote #2: This is Edda Mellas, (presumably being paid to speak) on ABC News 20/20 with Elizabeth Vargas. She is referring to her experience in the moments after the verdict of guilty is pronounced for Amanda and Raffaele.


interesting.. Was someone slapping Edda on the back of the head?

Brilliant comparison! Now we know where Amanda gets it from ... she's been saying it all her life, as has her mom. It's the most embellished I don't know I've ever heard.
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Offline Jester


User avatar


Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:24 pm

Posts: 2500

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:21 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

The Bard wrote:
I have reformatted Marie Pace's poem in an effort to get some meaning out of it.

Nope.


Anyone?



This is the only life I have
and I follow like tracks of scraps from the dawn.
This life admired by the various ambitions of my mind,
like a register that holds between the arms the psychology
the anthropology
and history of art.
This life that I feel like a knot around the shoulders,
like a valley between the breasts,
filled by tea fruit-gardens, public libraries, football grounds,
covered by granite blocks.
This life that remembers vaguely and forgets easily,
thus in a way categorizing the time as out moments, naked moments, smiling moments,
asleep
moments,
letting them slide between them.
This life in which I float in the centre,
like a zero in the infinite series of positive and negative experiences.
This is the only life I have,
and not even I can disentangle the blinking moments,
with a ball of twenty one strands of Christmas lights
which shine,
like a star,
when you insert the plug.

Again, like with the embellished, flowery essay/letter/story, I'm lost. These, to me, are random thoughts. They do not create a mental image. It appears to me to be disjointed, unfocused, rambling, a touch of kitsch (don't like kitsch), full of word she probably heard somewhere at some point and which she thought might look brilliant to a university professor that is struggling to find meaning in a student's work.

I do understand that she feels like her life is a big fat zero, but that's about it.
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Offline Jester


User avatar


Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:24 pm

Posts: 2500

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:26 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Jools wrote:
I just read: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/ ... kl.01.html

As most of you probably gathered English is not my first language. I like to ask, what's with Edda Mellas saying "you know" every other word? In this use as a filler while allowing time for her brain to come up with her best answer or is it a speech impediment?


I think it's also used as a kind of subliminal way of telling the listener that they too know that what she is saying is true. I think a prosecutor would say "no I don't know, but continue." It's also similar to "uhm" as a method for stalling while thinking what to say next.
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Offline capealadin


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Highscores: 11

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:30 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

YES!!! Wendy Murphy is on Jane V> Mitchell and has made excellent points on Amanda's quilt.

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Offline Emerald


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:57 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

capealadin wrote:
YES!!! Wendy Murphy is on Jane V> Mitchell and has made excellent points on Amanda's quilt.


What did she say? I missed it.
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Offline The 411


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Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:49 pm

Posts: 1386

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:58 am   Post subject: THE PMF CHOIR...on YOUTUBE!!   

Tiziano wrote:

And BTW, dear 411, could I please join the choir: You KNOW I'm practising reeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaalllllllll hard right now YOU KNOW![/b]


Yo, Tiziano!
Well, like, y'know, dude, yah, sure-U can like be a soloist ! I mean, like, you DID knew we already had a like PMF Choir, right?
**********************************************************************
Many of you may not be aware of this--but I think it's time to to divulge this little secret.

I've been quietly taking a group of the PMF'ers to Campanne Prison, over the past two years. While our group has not yet been allowed inside
the prison gates, we have been given permission to assemble our choir in the Capanne court yard and serenade Amanda. ser-)

In fact, just the other day, as soon as we found out about Marie Pace winning the acclaimed literary prize, we wanted to surprise "the award-winning inmate" by breaking out in a celebratory song, "Oi, Marie"

(Oh, let me just tell ya--did I have the hardest time trying to correct our Skep, and the rest of our French speakers, who kept singing "Oui, Marie!")

Anyhoo, I just happened to have captured this very moment on video, and thought you'd like to check us out! Tell me if you're not just dying to join the PMF Choir now, Tiziano!
mul-) band-)
BTW, Who knew Michael, in addition to his many other talents... played the accordion so well?!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlgcIjIq-68


Last edited by The 411 on Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline bucketoftea


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:04 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
bucketoftea wrote:
Tiziano said:

"When I am at the doctor's or dentist's waiting for treatment, I look for Vanity Fair to read: it is usually such a painful experience reading it that all my pain and trepidation at the horrors of the treatment to come just evaporate away!! Sometimes I wonder whether I should just go home and not bother my health professionals for the comparatively minor ailments which have brought me to their waiting rooms!"

Made me laugh! My sister (a smart and sophisticated person) I spotted once with a Vanity Fair under her arm, and I thought "hmm". The next time I was about to board a plane, I bought a copy. Never again. I recall sitting down with it thinking there would be a good read, here. LOL! I thought the writing was terrible!!! Vanity Fair does what it says on the label.


Vanity Fair is just a fancy gossip magazine for people who consider themselves too posh for People. Its writers are glib globetrotters for the most part. I quite like Christopher Hitchens, because he is well educated and acerbic, and James Wolcott, for the same reason. I also believe Vanity Fair has found a large niche market of affluent people who want to know what's going on culturally so that they can follow cocktail party chat.


I like Christopher Hitchens, too. I've heard him on the radio.
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Offline capealadin


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Highscores: 11

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:06 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Wendy talked about the knife, how it had been found in a box, buried at the back of Raffaele,s closet. When a FOA said there was only a cell of Meredith's on the tip, Wendy told her that Raffaele himself said he had pricked Meredith when she had dinner at his house. And Wendy mentioned that it was established that she had never been in his house. She also mentioned that there were 5 pieces of evidence with the co-mingling of Amanda's and Meredith's DNA. She told everyone to go to the TJMK website,where she said that people would find the true facts of the case. Jane V. Mitchell show is repeated at 6.00 pm

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Offline Kermit


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:07 am   Post subject: Re: THE JUDGES AND JURY KNOW BETTER THAN WE ....   

bibi wrote:
I'm still concerned about the half-truths and rumors that seem to be continually posted on this board. And by the way, I agree with the verdict. But, If this board is going to compete against the FOA'ers and lousy media and win, you're gonna have to check your sources. The TRUTH is: (MY ADDITIONS IN ALL CAPS) I know this is being picky, but these kind of things really bug me about this case.

The truth is that Raffaele didn't open his mouth during the trial. I BELIEVE THAT HE MADE AT LEAST ONE STATEMENT TO SAY THAT SOME PIECE OF EVIDENCE "WAS IMPOSSIBLE"

The truth is that Raffaele says that Amanda was out of his apartment for four hours on the night of the murder, while she says she was there. I THINK HE STATED THAT HE WASN'T SURE IF SHE WAS THERE ALL NIGHT OR NOT.

Hi Bibi,

If you want more precision from me, when I said that Raffaele didn't open his mouth during the trial, I meant that he maintained his right to silence, which is really the right to not be subject to questioning.

(the fact that he made a couple of uncontestable "spontaneous statements" doesn't count for much from an evidencial point of view)

It's clear that his legal team believed that any reply he might have given to any question from the Prosecution (or even from his own Defence team) could get him into hot water, given his record of comments like pricking Meredith with the Double DNA Knife, or fearing Rudy's stories.

As for Raffaele and his apartment, he clearly stated to police that Amanda left him for about 4 hours (which is what is in the investigation file, and he probably signed that off as a witness statement or freshly detained suspect statement - and this is what counts in the trial unless if he had wanted to make a formal restatement during the trial ... something which he didn't do). Later in one of his non-official diary statements he did say something about not being sure. What counts is what he signed.

So, I think you'll agree that my statements weren't half truths.

If you want not just half-truths, but whole lies, I'll send you the FOA web address.


Last edited by Kermit on Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline bucketoftea


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:11 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

er....the knife wasn't in a shoebox. It was in the kitchen drawer.
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Offline equinox


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Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:22 pm

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Location: WA, USA

Highscores: 7

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:12 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Jester wrote:
equinox wrote:
Pop Quiz: Who made these quotes?

Quote #1:
Then I don't remember anything else. There is such a lot going on in my head.'

Quote 2:
"It's all this really weird memory that I don't really remember. I cried... It was chaos"


Answer:

Quote #1: This one is easy to identify. This is of course Amanda immediately after explaining to the police that she was sitting in the kitchen covering her ears while Patrick Lumumba was raping and murdering Meredith in the next room.

Quote #2: This is Edda Mellas, (presumably being paid to speak) on ABC News 20/20 with Elizabeth Vargas. She is referring to her experience in the moments after the verdict of guilty is pronounced for Amanda and Raffaele.


interesting.. Was someone slapping Edda on the back of the head?

Brilliant comparison! Now we know where Amanda gets it from ... she's been saying it all her life, as has her mom. It's the most embellished I don't know I've ever heard.


I read quote #2 over 24 hours ago, and it kept nagging and nagging at me all night long. I knew I had heard it said somewhere before. It took forever to track both quotes down again. In the end what had struck me so strongly was the familial pattern of reaction to painful realities.. realities so painful one cannot bear to remember them. It was not "I was overwhelmed with a sense of horror and injustice so stark I could barely breath" or any kind of truly internalized response, just a mention of a state of confused mental process. In both cases, these statements are in response to the mind conveying thoughts of the very worst thing possible: the inescapable truth.
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Offline Viceroy


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:42 pm

Posts: 2

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:13 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Emerald,

you made a good point earlier when you wrote:

[quote]In Amanda's false Patrick Lumumba confession, she included facts of the crime scene which the Investigators had not yet confirmed. For me, that was the single most convincing piece of evidence./quote]

Would you mind telling me which facts they were? I know it must be tedious for the regular posters here to keep repeating the same points. I have been lurking for a while and have used the search button, so I'm not just being lazy! drin-)


Last edited by Viceroy on Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:13 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Los Angeles time. Oh, Wendy said that it therefore was Raffaele himself who confirmed that it was blood. Oh, and when the friends of Amanda were asked why Amanda was smiling all the time during the trial, they said it was to keep herself strong, and to keep her family and friends strong. BUT, a psychiatrist on the show said that's not normal, and if she WAS a friend of Meredith, normal would have been to look sad.

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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:18 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Yes, Bucketoftea, I also heard that it was found in the drawer. I must say, though, it sounded good that Wendy said it was in the closet. And, it was great that she mentioned how the knife had been cleaned with bleach. For the viewers who are in the dark, it was a very salient point. She made the point that students would wash a knife, but not scrub it with bleach.

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Offline Yummi


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:23 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Nathan,

The problem in believing Amanda (and Raffaele) innocent is when you start to consider meticulously the evidence left in the house, starting with the crime scene and the coroner's data to realize what happened in the minutes after Meredith's stabbing and her death, and in the other rooms, the bare footprints and the other signs, some traces left by Rudy and else.
The problem is if after the meticulous observation you try to fit all this in a scenario where Rudy was acting alone: the impossibility of this lonely perpetrator scenario is the starting point to look at the rest of the evidence.

But, Nathan, you must know that Amanda's questioning lasted only about 3 hours (10:30pm -01:45am). You have to start getting true information, not the propaganda, as the very first step.
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Offline max


Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:55 am

Posts: 1564

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:30 am   Post subject: Re: some trial overview   

ttrroonniicc wrote:
kokomani:

His testimony is chilling he says that he was driving slowly past the murder house on the night (confirmed by phone records) and he saw AK and Sollecito crouched down in the road - AK came up to his car with a knife then Soll. he punched Soll. AK came around the other side of the car to try to get in after yelling 'did you do it!' to Soll (did you stab him) - he threw things out of his car to keep her away (a jar of olives - an old mobile phone) he said Soll. had walked towards him coldly without smiling that is only the start of the testimony it took the prosecution under cross examination several hours to get it out of him because he was such a mess

I have never heard that an old mobile phone or olives were found there, but I think you have a point that AK tried to get in the car. Otherwise it would be rather difficult for Kokomani to hit her in the forehead. Lets say she stuck her head through the window and Kokomani tried to hit her. The phone would have fallen back inside the car IMO.
ttrroonniicc wrote:
AK:
New evidence came from the murder trial after the verdict it's a short story written by AK in prison they gave her a E100 prize for her writing it's allegorical it's all about the murder and in a way it explains what happened

It's a story of a party at a house where someone gets injured etc the story is short (coupla pages) in it it relates details of the crime scene

The story gave me the chills. I am not sure if you can call it 'evidence'. It describes a guy passed out on the side. Most likely Rudy. This gives the story of Rudy more credibility, but we need to know more about the events that lead up to the murder of MK to determine if one is more/less responsible than any of the others. Since they are not telling... sh-))
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:37 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

equinox wrote:

I read quote #2 over 24 hours ago, and it kept nagging and nagging at me all night long. I knew I had heard it said somewhere before. It took forever to track both quotes down again. In the end what had struck me so strongly was the familial pattern of reaction to painful realities.. realities so painful one cannot bear to remember them. It was not "I was overwhelmed with a sense of horror and injustice so stark I could barely breath" or any kind of truly internalized response, just a mention of a state of confused mental process. In both cases, these statements are in response to the mind conveying thoughts of the very worst thing possible: the inescapable truth.


Really nice connection you've made. If I were in a similar (could never be the same) situation, I'd say things like "I'm stunned or shocked, lost for words, not sure what to think, need time to process the experience", but I could never say that I have mental chaos, mental confusion, or describe something unpleasant as a "weird memory". What is a weird memory anyway? In reading through Amanda's testimony, we can see that the court was also baffled by the confusion that Amanda claimed existed in her head. It's no wonder Amanda's parents think she's innocent ... they know exactly what Amanda means when she claims to have mental confusion and dream like flashbacks ... it's part of their normal dialogue. It means ... I don't want to answer, so I'm going to pretend that my brains are scrambled.
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Offline Yummi


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:39 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

I have a blunt short theory droning in my mind, to submit. Maybe, the reason why so many journalists and observers see an obvious miscarriage of justice, is not always related to cultural arrogance or limit. It is that they are not subtle enough to understand the case. The case is difficult. And most journalist are not familiar with the subject of the justice system, they are not patient, not spending enough time on it, and maybe (some, and the public) too stupid andsimplicistic. They don't know how to orient themselves, see what the evidence is. They don't want evidence, instead they need smoking guns, show. That's all.
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Offline Michael

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Location: England

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:47 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Yummi wrote:
Nathan,

The problem in believing Amanda (and Raffaele) innocent is when you start to consider meticulously the evidence left in the house, starting with the crime scene and the coroner's data to realize what happened in the minutes after Meredith's stabbing and her death, and in the other rooms, the bare footprints and the other signs, some traces left by Rudy and else.
The problem is if after the meticulous observation you try to fit all this in a scenario where Rudy was acting alone: the impossibility of this lonely perpetrator scenario is the starting point to look at the rest of the evidence.

But, Nathan, you must know that Amanda's questioning lasted only about 3 hours (10:30pm -01:45am). You have to start getting true information, not the propaganda, as the very first step.


Her questioning was much shorter then that Yummi. Amanda was on the phone to Filomena at 10:30 and she was told off for doing cartwheels and yoga at 11:00. And the only time I have seen reported for the start of the questioning was 12 midnight.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline Viceroy


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:42 pm

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:48 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Yummi,

I agree with you. I think there is also the idea that spinning Amanda as a victim is deemed more attractive to the US reader, rather than casting her as the villain. But what I can't fathom, is why the English newspapers are following along too.

Perhaps, all the cutbacks the hacks have faced on both sides of the pond, mean that the journalists are just grateful for any easy story - and the Knox PR machine certainly churns out the copy.
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Offline Tiziano


Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:06 am

Posts: 714

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:56 am   Post subject: Re: THE PMF CHOIR...on YOUTUBE!! YO DEWD!!   

The 411 wrote:
Tiziano wrote:

And BTW, dear 411, could I please join the choir: You KNOW I'm practising reeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaalllllllll hard right now YOU KNOW![/b]


Yo, Tiziano!
Well, like, y'know, dude, yah, sure-U can like be a soloist ! I mean, like, you DID knew we already had a like PMF Choir, right?
**********************************************************************
Many of you may not be aware of this--but I think it's time to to divulge this little secret.

I've been quietly taking a group of the PMF'ers to Campanne Prison, over the past two years. While our group has not yet been allowed inside
the prison gates, we have been given permission to assemble our choir in the Capanne court yard and serenade Amanda. ser-)

In fact, just the other day, as soon as we found out about Marie Pace winning the acclaimed literary prize, we wanted to surprise "the award-winning inmate" by breaking out in a celebratory song, "Oi, Marie"

(Oh, let me just tell ya--did I have the hardest time trying to correct our Skep, and the rest of our French speakers, who kept singing "Oui, Marie!")

Anyhoo, I just happened to have captured this very moment on video, and thought you'd like to check us out! Tell me if you're not just dying to join the PMF Choir now, Tiziano!
mul-) band-)
BTW, Who knew Michael, in addition to his many other talents... played the accordion so well?!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlgcIjIq-68

TIZIANO SINGS OUT FOR MARIE PACE
YOU KNOW DEWDIE, I have done a few good gigs with this one YOU KNOW so I do expect top-of-the bill treatment (WINK, wink $$$$$$ NUDGE nudge) You know! Afterwards we could go and kill a pizza or two with Knoxy!! I think with my contacts YOU KNOW I just might get us in!! Getting out again might present a few probs, but I'll just call up Silvio: he's really good at crawling out from under!!
YO FRUMPYCAT, press those shirts Dudie and load up your wingwongs & come withus!
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Offline tamale


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:13 pm

Posts: 615

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:57 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

:?: I watched part of the Jane show, which brings me to another thought/question. A forensic pathologist can tell what sort of knife was used. Did that come up in trial?

Also, was the rock that was thrown thru Fillomena's window tested for touch DNA?
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Offline jfk1191


Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:46 am

Posts: 286

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:01 am   Post subject: Re: Synchronise watches to F.S.T. (FOA Standard Time)   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
jfk1191 wrote:
Kermit wrote:
jfk1191 wrote:
capealadin wrote:
Hi, Emerald, You could be right, but I just feel that she was so jealous of Meredith, what with taking her job, taking her to task about her boyfriends and cleaning (skills) and just being intimidated with her european savoir faire, and the attack seemed so personal, so much anger... nothing stolen, Rudi and Raffaele didn't know Meredith well enough to inflict such a frenzied personal attack. Feel free to correct me, i am open to all opinions, because I couldn't hurt a "spider". lol


To accept Mignini's theory is only one choice.
Just because it was voted most likley, doesn't mean it is fact. Much of it is very speculative.

Rudys story, most believe, has some truth mixed in with the lies.
What if Amanda was never in the room? What if only Rudy is all over the bedroom because he was the only one, and a Raffaele with a red/white cap was the murderer?

When do you think she was attacked is a point I am very "stuck" or unclear about.

I think in my theory Meredith was attacked at 8:56pm when her cellphone call was oddly cutoff. Maybe it was the attack moment, maybe it wasn't?

But its just as viable a thought as 11:30pm because some 70yr old women can hear through cement 70 meters away.

But its more critical in that if it was 8:56pm, and Amanda was talking to Popovic at 8:42pm...then its highly unlikely she was at the cottage committing murder within 13minutes.

The judges and jury have concluded that Knox and Sollecito - in this trial - and Rudy - in his short track trial - are guilty of murder. If you go back in time to the legal discussion, I believe that Yummi and others explained how this legal guilt does not mean necessarily that one or the other "pushed" the knife, but that they were all involved in the immediate dynamics which led up to Meredith's murder, and they could have done something to prevent it (that is reducing a big explanation into a few words).

Yes, it would be appreciated for the sake of greater clarity and further closure for the Kerchers in the understanding of what happened on 1 November 2007 if each of the murder convicts (pending appeal) could step up and finally tell the courts what they know.

However, even if they don't, they have been found legally guilty of the charge of murder (again, pending appeal).

Edda has being saying Time Of Death was 9.30 p.m., now you're saying it's 8:56 p.m. I bet we'll have a FOA scout on here over the next day with some explanation of how the TOD was 8:30, moments after Meredith left her friends ( ... maybe even before ... YES, Anne Bremner !!! the new analysis: the English girls are the murderers!!!! It all fits!!!!) .

It would be funny if it weren't so tragic, brutal and murderous.
===================================================

As for Sra. Nara's hearing ability, do you think she didn't hear someone pounding up the metal stair?

Why do you mention concrete? ... (maybe FOA is claiming on their pages now that Meredith was killed on the lower internal floor of the concrete carpark, it wouldn't be the first time they have manipulated evidence)


I think the "attack" was possibly at 8:56pm, when Merediths call to her mom was cut-off.No one will ever know for sure, but then its odd in Rudy's story he puts himself at the cottage exactly at this time....not 10:00, not 11, not 5pm...at 9pm Rudy placed himself at the cottage, in his own words. At 8:56pm Merediths call was interrupted and sadly, never made again.


As for Nara, the Elderly, the cement/concrete reference was referring to the walls of the cottage, possibly closed doors and unbroken windows, with a second of a female scream, the sound traveling thru the walls, through the trees, over the road through the car park, over the car park, through more cement and glass to Nara's ears.
This is what Micheli speaks of as impoortant, I disagree.
In Micheli's report, Nara mentions going to bed at 9:30pm, in a couple hours she awoke and heard this. Very unlikely she heard a scream at 11:30 coming from a bedroom in the cottage. Why unlikely? audio & physics in short.

Time of Death is another matter, I don't know either. It could be much later, or very soon.

I was speaking of the initial attack at 8:56pm, and think its very likely the attack happened then.

When do you think the attack occurred? And based off what piece of evidence?

Amanda and Raffaele were at RS's apartment at at least 8:42 per the witness Popovic.
With pc activity even later, maybe 9:10pm.


It is very odd that Meredith's mother did not try and call her back or worry, don't you think? And I see no compelling reason to think that RS's defense team's effort to push back TOD to as early as possible should be accepted. No evidence of it was offered as far as I can tell.


yes, for once I can agree, its interesting this call was not investigated to a conclusion.

tjmk doesn't even list it in the prosecutions time table? Maybe it never really even happened?
but this list doesn't include the Popovic visit either.

20:38 - Amanda sends a text message (sms) in reply to Patrick Lumumba.

20:46 - Sollecito turns off his mobile phone. He is still at home in Via Garibaldi.

20:45 – Meredith’s meal of pizza with her English friends ends. She starts off in the direction of Via della Pergola with a girlfriend who will leave her halfway to go to her own home.

21:00 - Meredith is at home, she eats a mushroom, she lies down on her bed, and she reads some university lecture notes.

21:10 - From this point on there is no more human interaction with Raffaele Sollecito’s computer.
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Offline DLW


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:41 pm

Posts: 623

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:35 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

I watched the Bill O’Reilly Show on Fox (so you don’t have to). Bill O. is a law and order guy just like me, and he isn’t squeamish about the use of harsh interrogation technique’s either. He had had two guest to discuss the Amanda Knox case. Former prosecutor Kimberly Guilfoyle and legal analyst Lis Wiehl‘s. Now Kimberly watched the 48 hr mystery show and the Van Sant interview, so I imagine she knows a lot about this case. There are a couple of red flags, but for the most part she thinks the level of evidence would rise beyond the level of reasonable doubt needed for conviction. I’m not sure what Lis Wiehl’s bona fides are in this case. She doesn‘t want to guess as to whether they are guilty or not , but she thinks that there would have been insufficient evidence to convict in the USA. So there you have it, fair and balanced.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:46 am   Post subject: Re: THE JUDGES AND JURY KNOW BETTER THAN WE ....   

Kermit wrote:
bibi wrote:
I'm still concerned about the half-truths and rumors that seem to be continually posted on this board. And by the way, I agree with the verdict. But, If this board is going to compete against the FOA'ers and lousy media and win, you're gonna have to check your sources. The TRUTH is: (MY ADDITIONS IN ALL CAPS) I know this is being picky, but these kind of things really bug me about this case.

The truth is that Raffaele didn't open his mouth during the trial. I BELIEVE THAT HE MADE AT LEAST ONE STATEMENT TO SAY THAT SOME PIECE OF EVIDENCE "WAS IMPOSSIBLE"

The truth is that Raffaele says that Amanda was out of his apartment for four hours on the night of the murder, while she says she was there. I THINK HE STATED THAT HE WASN'T SURE IF SHE WAS THERE ALL NIGHT OR NOT.

Hi Bibi,

If you want more precision from me, when I said that Raffaele didn't open his mouth during the trial, I meant that he maintained his right to silence, which is really the right to not be subject to questioning.

(the fact that he made a couple of uncontestable "spontaneous statements" doesn't count for much from an evidencial point of view)

It's clear that his legal team believed that any reply he might have given to any question from the Prosecution (or even from his own Defence team) could get him into hot water, given his record of comments like pricking Meredith with the Double DNA Knife, or fearing Rudy's stories.

As for Raffaele and his apartment, he clearly stated to police that Amanda left him for about 4 hours (which is what is in the investigation file, and he probably signed that off as a witness statement or freshly detained suspect statement - and this is what counts in the trial unless if he had wanted to make a formal restatement during the trial ... something which he didn't do). Later in one of his non-official diary statements he did say something about not being sure. What counts is what he signed.

So, I think you'll agree that my statements weren't half truths.

If you want not just half-truths, but whole lies, I'll send you the FOA web address.


I would just add that the only trustworthy court reporters consistently state that RS did not formally state that Knox was with him all night. Many analysts believe it is why he avoided taking the stand.

We have no interest in propagating lies and appreciate it when factual errors are corrected.

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Offline jfk1191


Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:46 am

Posts: 286

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:49 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

I was just reading the in-admissable tale by Amanda.

It sure is extremely odd everyone lies but use the same time of 9pm?
....not 11, not 5, not 3...

Amanda Interrogation-“We met around nine o’clock at the basketball court at Piazza Grimana and we went back to my house. I don’t remember if my friend Meredith was already there or whether she came later. What I can say is that the two of them (Meredith and Patrick) went off together.”

Rudy- I arrived after eating Kabob around 9pm and there I ran into Meredith coming in her driveway as I was leaving

Merediths friend confirms it was at 9pm approx, she returned to her cottage.

Merdiths last call cut-off at 8:56pm....
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Offline capealadin


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Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:58 am

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Highscores: 11

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:50 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Anyone know wht Raffaele gor solitary, and not Amanda?

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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:51 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

why....got

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Offline malcolm


Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:26 am

Posts: 239

Location: Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:57 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Lancelotti wrote:
anne wrote:
malcolm wrote:
Nell wrote:
It looks like the media in Germany are not much better than in the US. It would have been good if they would have informed themselves better before publishing this article.

Well, now we know where butters was getting his info.


Just wanna say that i don't think its right to say THE german media.
This is one author and he seems not have done his work proberly.
I've never heard of him before. The Spiegel has very good court speacialists but i guess they are busy with trials going on in their own country.
Spiegel is a very good magazine but the information given in this article is the work of one person. All other news i have seen about the case in germany were neutral.
(And i don't count smear-papers like BILD (Springer-Press) in it, people who read that don't deserve any better)
And saying media in germany is not better than in the US...wow, thats far fetched and a bit offending.



Actually, it is a well-written, accurate article. Or can anyone spot any mistakes in it?
Nobody has to agree with somebody else’s opinion, but it doesn’t mean the other person hasn’t done their research properly. What matters is that they get the facts right.
Alexander Smoltczyk is a journalist based in Italy. He has followed the case from the beginning.
link to the article


There are hardly any facts in this article, just a recounting of the reading of the verdict. Instead, it is a litany of FOA charges - insufficient evidence, no proof, the jury had doubts about their guilt, they were convicted because of their behavior in front of the investigators, etc. No discussion of the wealth of evidence on which the verdict actually was based. In that sense it is just like the American press.

But Anne is right in that this is not necessarily indicative of the German press as a whole.
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Offline malcolm


Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:26 am

Posts: 239

Location: Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:59 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

capealadin wrote:
Anyone know wht Raffaele gor solitary, and not Amanda?

He did? Where did you see that?
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:07 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

I believe I read it in the Sunday Times UK. online

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Offline malcolm


Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:26 am

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:17 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Yummi wrote:
Nathan,

The problem in believing Amanda (and Raffaele) innocent is when you start to consider meticulously the evidence left in the house, starting with the crime scene and the coroner's data to realize what happened in the minutes after Meredith's stabbing and her death, and in the other rooms, the bare footprints and the other signs, some traces left by Rudy and else.
The problem is if after the meticulous observation you try to fit all this in a scenario where Rudy was acting alone: the impossibility of this lonely perpetrator scenario is the starting point to look at the rest of the evidence.

This is exactly how I look at the case. I start with the footprints, then the shoeprints, the nature of MK's injuries, and the way the crime scene was cleaned up. These things point to the facts that Rudi couldn't have acted alone, a woman with feet of around AK's size was involved, and someone had an interest in altering the evidence, but not erasing it completely, to implicate only RG. Then when you add the ever-changing and conflicting testimony and odd behavior on the morning of the crime of AK and RS the conclusion becomes inescapable. The bra clasp and knife are useful only in that they support a conclusion derived by other means, while the witness testimony is superfluous.
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Offline malcolm


Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:26 am

Posts: 239

Location: Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:20 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

bucketoftea wrote:
er....the knife wasn't in a shoebox. It was in the kitchen drawer.

The police placed the knife in a shoebox when they removed it for testing. That is where the confusion arose.
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Offline Geologist


Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:31 pm

Posts: 83

Location: Leeds and Toronto

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:31 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

malcolm wrote:
Yummi wrote:
Nathan,

The problem in believing Amanda (and Raffaele) innocent is when you start to consider meticulously the evidence left in the house, starting with the crime scene and the coroner's data to realize what happened in the minutes after Meredith's stabbing and her death, and in the other rooms, the bare footprints and the other signs, some traces left by Rudy and else.
The problem is if after the meticulous observation you try to fit all this in a scenario where Rudy was acting alone: the impossibility of this lonely perpetrator scenario is the starting point to look at the rest of the evidence.

This is exactly how I look at the case. I start with the footprints, then the shoeprints, the nature of MK's injuries, and the way the crime scene was cleaned up. These things point to the facts that Rudi couldn't have acted alone, a woman with feet of around AK's size was involved, and someone had an interest in altering the evidence, but not erasing it completely, to implicate only RG. Then when you add the ever-changing and conflicting testimony and odd behavior on the morning of the crime of AK and RS the conclusion becomes inescapable. The bra clasp and knife are useful only in that they support a conclusion derived by other means, while the witness testimony is superfluous.


The common tactic of the FOA is to try and place critical importance on one piece of evidence such as the knife.

The problem is that (like in most trials) you have to look at the bigger picture, which they refuse to do.
You could actually remove the knife from the equation and still easily convict her with the rest of the evidence.
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Offline MarinaNYC


Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 7:23 pm

Posts: 16

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:51 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

nathan_05 wrote:
I forgot: This best annswer is interesting too because the user grew up in the town next to Knox.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 559AAgw7wi


Nathan,

Rather than take the word of someone who grew up in a town near her, how about the words of someome who knew her. A co-worker said:
"You know," Matthew said, leaning toward me, "a lot of people are saying she is a sweet girl and they can't believe she could have done such a thing. But, to be honest, I'm not surprised she is a suspect. Really. The first time I met her, when I got the job here, she asked me if I was Jewish. I told her I was. She then screamed: 'My people killed your people,' and began laughing hysterically. I didn't know what to say. She just kept laughing about her Germans killing my Jews. After that, I did not like her. She really freaked me out."

This quote is from Charles Mudede's article at The Stranger called The Education of Amanda Knox.

Some suburban kids, like Ted Bundy--also from Seatlle, or the Columbine killers grow up in suburbia, and are still capable of senseless murder.
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Offline max


Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:55 am

Posts: 1564

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:00 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

malcolm wrote:
capealadin wrote:
Anyone know why Raffaele got solitary, and not Amanda?

He did? Where did you see that?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/06/amanda-knox-jail-conditions
It doesn't say that it is part of his conviction, but more like that is how they keep the sex offfenders separated in that prison. At least, that is how I read it.
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Offline Geologist


Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:31 pm

Posts: 83

Location: Leeds and Toronto

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:00 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

MarinaNYC wrote:
nathan_05 wrote:
I forgot: This best annswer is interesting too because the user grew up in the town next to Knox.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 559AAgw7wi


Nathan,

Rather than take the word of someone who grew up in a town near her, how about the words of someome who knew her. A co-worker said:
"You know," Matthew said, leaning toward me, "a lot of people are saying she is a sweet girl and they can't believe she could have done such a thing. But, to be honest, I'm not surprised she is a suspect. Really. The first time I met her, when I got the job here, she asked me if I was Jewish. I told her I was. She then screamed: 'My people killed your people,' and began laughing hysterically. I didn't know what to say. She just kept laughing about her Germans killing my Jews. After that, I did not like her. She really freaked me out."


Thats awful, had she said anything like that in Europe - especially in Germany she'd have lasted 2 minutes.

No-one jokes about those things, least of all the Germans.
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:09 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Max, I'm positive that Raffaele got 2 months solitary, but not Amanda

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Offline MarinaNYC


Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 7:23 pm

Posts: 16

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:13 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

juliet wrote:
Hi. Reading knox's short story and yummi's comments, I agree - was also struck by some similarities to KNox's 'confession' story with Lumumba. I have always wondered which aspects of this confession story were true. Did she actually have a more onlooking role than the prosecution have made out, or is this just wishful thinking on her part when she is confessing, and in her story? The prosecution needed to give a fairly firm narrative that explained her DNA on the knife by her holding it and using it, and indeed kokomani has her with the knife in hand outside the cottage, but her dna could have been explained by her simply cleaning the knife, or holding it at some point, nobody really knows who gave the fatal knife blows. Also, it surprised me slightly how the prosecution put Knox very much as dominant force in the attack; my feeling is that she and Sollecito were a fatal combination together, and you wonder how much his obsessions with knives and manga steered the events of the night. I noticed that psychologist David Wilson (was referred to by someone in the last few days, and his interview was linked) who studied the diaries of all 3 seemed to feel that Sollecito had a more dominant role than the prosecution allege. I am just talking out loud I wondered what others think, I feel that while Knox might be bossy in a slightly stupid self-centred sort of way, Sollecito may also haven driven things more subtly in his own way and with his own motivations, the combination as we know being so tragic.
Other point - was also surprised that K and S got fewer years than Guede and that the jury seemed so compassionate towards them from their comments. From afar it is very difficult to see Knox as other than a self-obsessed calculating manipulator. Who knows maybe her 'confession' and her story were both only more manipulation.


Hello Juliet,

That part of the David Wilson interview caught my attention as well. Sollecito's fascination with knives, manga and the extreme sounds like the type of imagination that could come up with such a brutal scene. Amanda's writing always seems self-reflective, concerned with herself (lethally narcississtic, you could say), but not much imagination.

I think his legal team have wisely kept him hidden, while Amanda's peculiarity has taken the spotlight. I actually don't believe his attorney's statement that Rafael was so confused, broken that he said "Where am I? Why am I still here?" They want to portray him as weak. Keep him in the shadows, and somehow manage a transfer to psychiatric prison or a shorter sentence on appeal because he is already a broken man.

It's a better strategy that insulting the entire nation of Italy via her parents' campaign.
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Offline bibi


Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 6:26 pm

Posts: 13

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:15 am   Post subject: Re: THE JUDGES AND JURY KNOW BETTER THAN WE ....   

Thanks Kermit for clarifying things. If he signed a statement saying that she left his apartment for four hours, then that makes me even more sure of their guilt. Just wish the facts and actual court transcripts were available somewhere. Guess we'll have to wait for the post verdict report to get other facts straight.

Thanks again. And BTW, I have already visited the FOA site.


Kermit wrote:
bibi wrote:
I'm still concerned about the half-truths and rumors that seem to be continually posted on this board. And by the way, I agree with the verdict. But, If this board is going to compete against the FOA'ers and lousy media and win, you're gonna have to check your sources. The TRUTH is: (MY ADDITIONS IN ALL CAPS) I know this is being picky, but these kind of things really bug me about this case.

The truth is that Raffaele didn't open his mouth during the trial. I BELIEVE THAT HE MADE AT LEAST ONE STATEMENT TO SAY THAT SOME PIECE OF EVIDENCE "WAS IMPOSSIBLE"

The truth is that Raffaele says that Amanda was out of his apartment for four hours on the night of the murder, while she says she was there. I THINK HE STATED THAT HE WASN'T SURE IF SHE WAS THERE ALL NIGHT OR NOT.

Hi Bibi,

If you want more precision from me, when I said that Raffaele didn't open his mouth during the trial, I meant that he maintained his right to silence, which is really the right to not be subject to questioning.

(the fact that he made a couple of uncontestable "spontaneous statements" doesn't count for much from an evidencial point of view)

It's clear that his legal team believed that any reply he might have given to any question from the Prosecution (or even from his own Defence team) could get him into hot water, given his record of comments like pricking Meredith with the Double DNA Knife, or fearing Rudy's stories.

As for Raffaele and his apartment, he clearly stated to police that Amanda left him for about 4 hours (which is what is in the investigation file, and he probably signed that off as a witness statement or freshly detained suspect statement - and this is what counts in the trial unless if he had wanted to make a formal restatement during the trial ... something which he didn't do). Later in one of his non-official diary statements he did say something about not being sure. What counts is what he signed.

So, I think you'll agree that my statements weren't half truths.

If you want not just half-truths, but whole lies, I'll send you the FOA web address.
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Offline max


Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:55 am

Posts: 1564

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:22 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

capealadin wrote:
Max, I'm positive that Raffaele got 2 months solitary, but not Amanda

"Knox and Sollecito escaped tougher punishment requested by prosecutors. The prosecution had asked for them to begin their sentences in solitary confinement - in Knox's case, for nine months. That request was rejected by the jury."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/6746689/Amanda-Knox-Foxy-Knoxy-cries-herself-to-sleep-in-jail.html
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:23 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

anne wrote:
Its not "their explanation" its Alexander Smoltczyks explanation....
The thing is, he really is an award-winning journalist ("Egon-Erwin-Kisch Prize" - The German equivalent to the Pulitzer Prize and "Henri-Nannen-Prize - which is awarded every year for outstanding performance in printed journalism, is also committed to the professional ethos of journalism) ...not like others...you know...the cook and stuff....


That's splitting hairs. The article has been published in Spiegel and Spiegel is therefore jointly responsible to propagate the common misconception of "no real evidence" in this case. Or don't they have a say in what is published in their own paper? Can anyone link an article favourable to the victim, Meredith Kercher, instead of hundreds about Amanda Knox the "possible-miscarriage-of-justice-victim"?

Award-winning journalist aside, the article is not well researched. The conclusion that Amanda would have walked free in the US is most intriguing considering they convicted Scott Peterson with no evidence at all to death.

Amanda Knox will certainly benefit from this media frenzy. The case seems to have gained even more attention than ever before and the media are not interested in the facts, they only want to see her walk free, a happy end (for Amanda). I already feel for the poor family of the real victim. They have to witness all the sympathy the convicted murder of their daughter gets. I am disgusted with all this.
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Offline ttrroonniicc


Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:12 pm

Posts: 1073

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:30 am   Post subject: Re: some trial overview   

max wrote:
The story gave me the chills. I am not sure if you can call it 'evidence'. It describes a guy passed out on the side. Most likely Rudy. This gives the story of Rudy more credibility, but we need to know more about the events that lead up to the murder of MK to determine if one is more/less responsible than any of the others. Since they are not telling... sh-))

How many 'points of congruence' do you register between that story and the crime scene and possible actors?

It has to be about the night - a relation of amandas role on the night and her attempt to explain it's less of a short story more of a 'confession' ... there was plenty of evidence too much in fact and much of it wasn't addressed because although it was damning it was secondary evidence (this story for instance).

The evidence they committed AK on was completely damning - the most certain evidence.


Last edited by ttrroonniicc on Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline bibi


Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 6:26 pm

Posts: 13

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:34 am   Post subject: Re: THE JUDGES AND JURY KNOW BETTER THAN WE ....   

Skep,

Don't get me wrong, I'm not accusing anyone of intentionally propagating lies. I'm just saying that it's frustrating that so many of the facts of the case have been distorted, and would suggest that when someone posts a "supposed fact", just be careful that you are not embellishing or paraphrasing. It would be nice if a source was named if possible.

One of the key issues in the trial was the assertion that Meredith and Amanda were no longer friends and had conflicts over Amanda's laziness and lack of hygiene. I can't find any real documentation of this "fact" anywhere either. Does anyone know where this came from?


Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Kermit wrote:
bibi wrote:
I'm still concerned about the half-truths and rumors that seem to be continually posted on this board. And by the way, I agree with the verdict. But, If this board is going to compete against the FOA'ers and lousy media and win, you're gonna have to check your sources. The TRUTH is: (MY ADDITIONS IN ALL CAPS) I know this is being picky, but these kind of things really bug me about this case.

The truth is that Raffaele didn't open his mouth during the trial. I BELIEVE THAT HE MADE AT LEAST ONE STATEMENT TO SAY THAT SOME PIECE OF EVIDENCE "WAS IMPOSSIBLE"

The truth is that Raffaele says that Amanda was out of his apartment for four hours on the night of the murder, while she says she was there. I THINK HE STATED THAT HE WASN'T SURE IF SHE WAS THERE ALL NIGHT OR NOT.

Hi Bibi,

If you want more precision from me, when I said that Raffaele didn't open his mouth during the trial, I meant that he maintained his right to silence, which is really the right to not be subject to questioning.

(the fact that he made a couple of uncontestable "spontaneous statements" doesn't count for much from an evidencial point of view)

It's clear that his legal team believed that any reply he might have given to any question from the Prosecution (or even from his own Defence team) could get him into hot water, given his record of comments like pricking Meredith with the Double DNA Knife, or fearing Rudy's stories.

As for Raffaele and his apartment, he clearly stated to police that Amanda left him for about 4 hours (which is what is in the investigation file, and he probably signed that off as a witness statement or freshly detained suspect statement - and this is what counts in the trial unless if he had wanted to make a formal restatement during the trial ... something which he didn't do). Later in one of his non-official diary statements he did say something about not being sure. What counts is what he signed.

So, I think you'll agree that my statements weren't half truths.

If you want not just half-truths, but whole lies, I'll send you the FOA web address.


I would just add that the only trustworthy court reporters consistently state that RS did not formally state that Knox was with him all night. Many analysts believe it is why he avoided taking the stand.

We have no interest in propagating lies and appreciate it when factual errors are corrected.
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Offline Jester


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Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:24 pm

Posts: 2500

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:35 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Jane Velez-Mitchell Transcripts

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/ ... vm.01.html
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Offline Nell

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Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:38 pm

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:36 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

mulder_01 wrote:
--- snip ---
Another truth:
The kitchen knife was not found to be compatible with the fatal wound. That "information" is not true. Official is: The knife doesn`t match. There were imprints of the knife used on Kercher left on the sheet at the crime scene. The "murder weapon" found at Sollecito's home is substantially bigger. It isn't the murder weapon. The only source claims that the knife was compatible with the fatal wound is truejustice.org.
--- snap ---


As far as I understand, Meredith Kercher's body presented not only one wound, but various. The kitchen knife with the double DNA was found to be compatible with the other wounds, but not with the fatal stab wound in her throat. The bloody imprint of another knife was found on the sheet, suggestion that two knives had been used in the attack.

It is not far fetched to believe that the kitchen knife was used in the attack, but not for the fatal wound.

Now, please correct me if I understood that wrong.
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Offline max


Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:55 am

Posts: 1564

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:57 am   Post subject: Re: some trial overview   

ttrroonniicc wrote:
max wrote:
The story gave me the chills. I am not sure if you can call it 'evidence'. It describes a guy passed out on the side. Most likely Rudy. This gives the story of Rudy more credibility, but we need to know more about the events that lead up to the murder of MK to determine if one is more/less responsible than any of the others. Since they are not telling... sh-))

How many 'points of congruence' do you register between that story and the crime scene and possible actors?

It has to be about the night - a relation of amandas role on the night and her attempt to explain it's less of a short story more of a 'confession' ... there was plenty of evidence too much in fact and much of it wasn't addressed because although it was damning it was secondary evidence (this story for instance).

The evidence they committed AK on was completely damning - the most certain evidence.

I hear you. The point was does it change anything? Does it matter if Rudy was telling the truth and not in the bedroom while the murder accured? He clearly was involved in what lead up to the murder, and he didn't call an ambulance to try to save her. So far I see them all 3 responsible and not just AK.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:59 am   Post subject: Re: THE JUDGES AND JURY KNOW BETTER THAN WE ....   

bibi wrote:
Skep,

Don't get me wrong, I'm not accusing anyone of intentionally propagating lies. I'm just saying that it's frustrating that so many of the facts of the case have been distorted, and would suggest that when someone posts a "supposed fact", just be careful that you are not embellishing or paraphrasing. It would be nice if a source was named if possible.

One of the key issues in the trial was the assertion that Meredith and Amanda were no longer friends and had conflicts over Amanda's laziness and lack of hygiene. I can't find any real documentation of this "fact" anywhere either. Does anyone know where this came from?


Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Kermit wrote:
bibi wrote:
I'm still concerned about the half-truths and rumors that seem to be continually posted on this board. And by the way, I agree with the verdict. But, If this board is going to compete against the FOA'ers and lousy media and win, you're gonna have to check your sources. The TRUTH is: (MY ADDITIONS IN ALL CAPS) I know this is being picky, but these kind of things really bug me about this case.

The truth is that Raffaele didn't open his mouth during the trial. I BELIEVE THAT HE MADE AT LEAST ONE STATEMENT TO SAY THAT SOME PIECE OF EVIDENCE "WAS IMPOSSIBLE"

The truth is that Raffaele says that Amanda was out of his apartment for four hours on the night of the murder, while she says she was there. I THINK HE STATED THAT HE WASN'T SURE IF SHE WAS THERE ALL NIGHT OR NOT.

Hi Bibi,

If you want more precision from me, when I said that Raffaele didn't open his mouth during the trial, I meant that he maintained his right to silence, which is really the right to not be subject to questioning.

(the fact that he made a couple of uncontestable "spontaneous statements" doesn't count for much from an evidencial point of view)

It's clear that his legal team believed that any reply he might have given to any question from the Prosecution (or even from his own Defence team) could get him into hot water, given his record of comments like pricking Meredith with the Double DNA Knife, or fearing Rudy's stories.

As for Raffaele and his apartment, he clearly stated to police that Amanda left him for about 4 hours (which is what is in the investigation file, and he probably signed that off as a witness statement or freshly detained suspect statement - and this is what counts in the trial unless if he had wanted to make a formal restatement during the trial ... something which he didn't do). Later in one of his non-official diary statements he did say something about not being sure. What counts is what he signed.

So, I think you'll agree that my statements weren't half truths.

If you want not just half-truths, but whole lies, I'll send you the FOA web address.


I would just add that the only trustworthy court reporters consistently state that RS did not formally state that Knox was with him all night. Many analysts believe it is why he avoided taking the stand.

We have no interest in propagating lies and appreciate it when factual errors are corrected.

Actually, you mentioned half-truths and rumors that seem to be continuously stated on this board. I take exception to that on behalf of everyone here. Michael and I moderate the board. If you wish to challenge a specific fact, there is a polite way to do it. Yours was not polite. Kermit replied politely. No, you did not accuse "anyone" -- you accused the entire board. So stop. If you have a problem with the way the board is moderated, send a PM to Michael or me or both of us.

As for your question about hygiene, I suggest you read all of Andrea Vogt's articles from the trial phase. She was present in the courtroom.

As for sources, we usually provide those the first time. But you have to understand that most of the facts being kicked around now were sourced a long time ago. I'm not going to ask those who have been here for two years to repost sources for "anyone" who comes along to challenge them. We're a bit past that phase now. There may be a discussion board that is starting from ground zero for you to join.

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Offline Fly by Night


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:09 pm

Posts: 1014

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:02 am   Post subject: Re: THE JUDGES AND JURY KNOW BETTER THAN WE ....   

Kermit wrote:
As for Raffaele and his apartment, he clearly stated to police that Amanda left him for about 4 hours (which is what is in the investigation file, and he probably signed that off as a witness statement or freshly detained suspect statement - and this is what counts in the trial unless if he had wanted to make a formal restatement during the trial ... something which he didn't do).


Forget Raffaele's statement - phone records show that Amanda Knox was not at Sollecito's flat when she recieved the text from Patrick saying not to come to work. She was in the same location Rudy said he was in - at the same time.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:04 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Nell wrote:
mulder_01 wrote:
--- snip ---
Another truth:
The kitchen knife was not found to be compatible with the fatal wound. That "information" is not true. Official is: The knife doesn`t match. There were imprints of the knife used on Kercher left on the sheet at the crime scene. The "murder weapon" found at Sollecito's home is substantially bigger. It isn't the murder weapon. The only source claims that the knife was compatible with the fatal wound is truejustice.org.
--- snap ---


As far as I understand, Meredith Kercher's body presented not only one wound, but various. The kitchen knife with the double DNA was found to be compatible with the other wounds, but not with the fatal stab wound in her throat. The bloody imprint of another knife was found on the sheet, suggestion that two knives had been used in the attack.

It is not far fetched to believe that the kitchen knife was used in the attack, but not for the fatal wound.

Now, please correct me if I understood that wrong.


Mulder being busy with his X files, let me give it a try. His statement is wrong. Two or more knives were used in the attack, according to testimony given.

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Offline Fly by Night


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:09 pm

Posts: 1014

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:08 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

jfk1191 wrote:
Rudy- I arrived after eating Kabob


That's right - and Rudy was at the same location as Amanda when that happened. Amanda was not at Sollecito's flat that evening!
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Offline Tiziano


Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:06 am

Posts: 714

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:14 am   Post subject: Re: THE JUDGES AND JURY KNOW BETTER THAN WE ....   

bibi wrote:
Skep,

Don't get me wrong, I'm not accusing anyone of intentionally propagating lies. I'm just saying that it's frustrating that so many of the facts of the case have been distorted, and would suggest that when someone posts a "supposed fact", just be careful that you are not embellishing or paraphrasing. It would be nice if a source was named if possible.

One of the key issues in the trial was the assertion that Meredith and Amanda were no longer friends and had conflicts over Amanda's laziness and lack of hygiene. I can't find any real documentation of this "fact" anywhere either. Does anyone know where this came from?


Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Kermit wrote:
bibi wrote:
I'm still concerned about the half-truths and rumors that seem to be continually posted on this board. And by the way, I agree with the verdict. But, If this board is going to compete against the FOA'ers and lousy media and win, you're gonna have to check your sources. The TRUTH is: (MY ADDITIONS IN ALL CAPS) I know this is being picky, but these kind of things really bug me about this case.

The truth is that Raffaele didn't open his mouth during the trial. I BELIEVE THAT HE MADE AT LEAST ONE STATEMENT TO SAY THAT SOME PIECE OF EVIDENCE "WAS IMPOSSIBLE"

The truth is that Raffaele says that Amanda was out of his apartment for four hours on the night of the murder, while she says she was there. I THINK HE STATED THAT HE WASN'T SURE IF SHE WAS THERE ALL NIGHT OR NOT.

Hi Bibi,

If you want more precision from me, when I said that Raffaele didn't open his mouth during the trial, I meant that he maintained his right to silence, which is really the right to not be subject to questioning.

(the fact that he made a couple of uncontestable "spontaneous statements" doesn't count for much from an evidencial point of view)

It's clear that his legal team believed that any reply he might have given to any question from the Prosecution (or even from his own Defence team) could get him into hot water, given his record of comments like pricking Meredith with the Double DNA Knife, or fearing Rudy's stories.

As for Raffaele and his apartment, he clearly stated to police that Amanda left him for about 4 hours (which is what is in the investigation file, and he probably signed that off as a witness statement or freshly detained suspect statement - and this is what counts in the trial unless if he had wanted to make a formal restatement during the trial ... something which he didn't do). Later in one of his non-official diary statements he did say something about not being sure. What counts is what he signed.

So, I think you'll agree that my statements weren't half truths.

If you want not just half-truths, but whole lies, I'll send you the FOA web address.


I would just add that the only trustworthy court reporters consistently state that RS did not formally state that Knox was with him all night. Many analysts believe it is why he avoided taking the stand.

We have no interest in propagating lies and appreciate it when factual errors are corrected.

I do not appreciate the tone and implication of some of your statements; the people who run this board are of impeccable honesty and integrity. They unfailingly treat all comers with respect, tolerance, patience and good manners.
The people who post on this board do not deserve the disrepect which underpins much of what you are insinuating.

If you keep pushing the envelope, it is quite likely that the paper will tear, you know.
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Offline Jester


User avatar


Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:24 pm

Posts: 2500

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:21 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Just thinking out loud ... but Amanda's lawyer has done everything he could to distance her from media attention in the US. Amanda and her family have done the opposite. Her lawyer said just a couple of days ago that this latest media attention will not help. I think Amanda should have listened to her lawyer.

Initially, in the first few hours, all the media support was for Amanda, with names like Senator Cantwell, and Clinton, being attached to the case. Just a few days later, more and more people are taking the time to find out what this case is all about. The more they learn, the worse it looks for Amanda. It shouldn't take too long for people to walk away from the case altogether. At the time of the appeal, when Amanda could maybe really use some strong support, everyone will be long gone. Amanda is her own worst enemy at every turn.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:29 am   Post subject: Re: THE JUDGES AND JURY KNOW BETTER THAN WE ....   

Tiziano wrote:
bibi wrote:
Skep,

Don't get me wrong, I'm not accusing anyone of intentionally propagating lies. I'm just saying that it's frustrating that so many of the facts of the case have been distorted, and would suggest that when someone posts a "supposed fact", just be careful that you are not embellishing or paraphrasing. It would be nice if a source was named if possible.

One of the key issues in the trial was the assertion that Meredith and Amanda were no longer friends and had conflicts over Amanda's laziness and lack of hygiene. I can't find any real documentation of this "fact" anywhere either. Does anyone know where this came from?


Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Kermit wrote:
bibi wrote:
I'm still concerned about the half-truths and rumors that seem to be continually posted on this board. And by the way, I agree with the verdict. But, If this board is going to compete against the FOA'ers and lousy media and win, you're gonna have to check your sources. The TRUTH is: (MY ADDITIONS IN ALL CAPS) I know this is being picky, but these kind of things really bug me about this case.

The truth is that Raffaele didn't open his mouth during the trial. I BELIEVE THAT HE MADE AT LEAST ONE STATEMENT TO SAY THAT SOME PIECE OF EVIDENCE "WAS IMPOSSIBLE"

The truth is that Raffaele says that Amanda was out of his apartment for four hours on the night of the murder, while she says she was there. I THINK HE STATED THAT HE WASN'T SURE IF SHE WAS THERE ALL NIGHT OR NOT.

Hi Bibi,

If you want more precision from me, when I said that Raffaele didn't open his mouth during the trial, I meant that he maintained his right to silence, which is really the right to not be subject to questioning.

(the fact that he made a couple of uncontestable "spontaneous statements" doesn't count for much from an evidencial point of view)

It's clear that his legal team believed that any reply he might have given to any question from the Prosecution (or even from his own Defence team) could get him into hot water, given his record of comments like pricking Meredith with the Double DNA Knife, or fearing Rudy's stories.

As for Raffaele and his apartment, he clearly stated to police that Amanda left him for about 4 hours (which is what is in the investigation file, and he probably signed that off as a witness statement or freshly detained suspect statement - and this is what counts in the trial unless if he had wanted to make a formal restatement during the trial ... something which he didn't do). Later in one of his non-official diary statements he did say something about not being sure. What counts is what he signed.

So, I think you'll agree that my statements weren't half truths.

If you want not just half-truths, but whole lies, I'll send you the FOA web address.


I would just add that the only trustworthy court reporters consistently state that RS did not formally state that Knox was with him all night. Many analysts believe it is why he avoided taking the stand.

We have no interest in propagating lies and appreciate it when factual errors are corrected.

I do not appreciate the tone and implication of some of your statements; the people who run this board are of impeccable honesty and integrity. They unfailingly treat all comers with respect, tolerance, patience and good manners.
The people who post on this board do not deserve the disrepect which underpins much of what you are insinuating.

If you keep pushing the envelope, it is quite likely that the paper will tear, you know.


You are quite right. The fact is, if it needs to be sourced, one of the moderators or a long-time poster will point this out politely. Otherwise, best leave it. Sorry, but that's how it works here.

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Offline DLW


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:41 pm

Posts: 623

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:38 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Neil wrote:

‘As far as I understand, Meredith Kercher's body presented not only one wound, but various. The kitchen knife with the double DNA was found to be compatible with the other wounds, but not with the fatal stab wound in her throat. The bloody imprint of another knife was found on the sheet, suggestion that two knives had been used in the attack.
It is not far fetched to believe that the kitchen knife was used in the attack, but not for the fatal wound.
Now, please correct me if I understood that wrong.’

Hi Neil. My understanding is that it’s the other way around. The fatal knife wound was large, and consistent with the large kitchen knife. Some of the smaller non fatal wounds they believe were made with a smaller blade. Despite what the defense says, it would be difficult for a small blade to make that big wound. Requiring at least two stabbing wounds in the exact same spot.
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Offline Jester


User avatar


Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:24 pm

Posts: 2500

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:40 am   Post subject: Re: THE JUDGES AND JURY KNOW BETTER THAN WE ....   

bibi wrote:
Skep,

Don't get me wrong, I'm not accusing anyone of intentionally propagating lies. I'm just saying that it's frustrating that so many of the facts of the case have been distorted, and would suggest that when someone posts a "supposed fact", just be careful that you are not embellishing or paraphrasing. It would be nice if a source was named if possible.

One of the key issues in the trial was the assertion that Meredith and Amanda were no longer friends and had conflicts over Amanda's laziness and lack of hygiene. I can't find any real documentation of this "fact" anywhere either. Does anyone know where this came from?


I have noticed that people that have recently taken an interest in the case are looking for some sort of simple link that provides summarized versions of individual pieces of information. For example, today, on another board, I came across a request for a link stating that Rudy and Amanda had smoked pot together in the apartment downstairs and that Amanda knew the boys downstairs were away on the weekend that Meredith was murdered. Another request was to provide a link stating the Meredith's DNA was on the blade of the knife rather than the tip.

Both of these requests were very difficult to fulfill not because they are not true, but because people that have been reading the case for 1-2 year cannot clearly remember which of several articles they read to arrive at the information. In case you're interested, the answer was in the Amanda's testimony which is linked on this site.

Similarly, your request for a link stating that there were problems between Meredith and Amanda because: she didn't flush the toilet, she displayed her vibrator in a clear plastic bad and hung it in the bathroom she shared with Meredith, she didn't clean up after herself, she didn't keep up her end of shared and assigned chores, she was promiscuous, she brought strange men to the cottage, and more ... is unrealistic. The only way that you will understand and believe this is to read the available transcripts and translations on this website, read media articles, read everything you can find. It will take time ... that's how it works. If you want a summary of all the information that has been made public in one link ... you're here. If you want an independent quick link to a short summary ... that's difficult to provide as most of the information has been gathered from multiple sources as the information was released. For me ... the link is in my head ... I know it because I've read about it for at least a year. They are facts that I acquired from following the case.

I guess that give you two choices: trust those that have followed the case, or start reading.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:41 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Fly by Night wrote:
jfk1191 wrote:
Rudy- I arrived after eating Kabob


That's right - and Rudy was at the same location as Amanda when that happened. Amanda was not at Sollecito's flat that evening!


In case anyone is wondering, this indeed was established through phone records during the trial.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:57 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Nell wrote:
anne wrote:
Its not "their explanation" its Alexander Smoltczyks explanation....
The thing is, he really is an award-winning journalist ("Egon-Erwin-Kisch Prize" - The German equivalent to the Pulitzer Prize and "Henri-Nannen-Prize - which is awarded every year for outstanding performance in printed journalism, is also committed to the professional ethos of journalism) ...not like others...you know...the cook and stuff....


That's splitting hairs. The article has been published in Spiegel and Spiegel is therefore jointly responsible to propagate the common misconception of "no real evidence" in this case. Or don't they have a say in what is published in their own paper? Can anyone link an article favourable to the victim, Meredith Kercher, instead of hundreds about Amanda Knox the "possible-miscarriage-of-justice-victim"?

Award-winning journalist aside, the article is not well researched. The conclusion that Amanda would have walked free in the US is most intriguing considering they convicted Scott Peterson with no evidence at all to death.
Amanda Knox will certainly benefit from this media frenzy. The case seems to have gained even more attention than ever before and the media are not interested in the facts, they only want to see her walk free, a happy end (for Amanda). I already feel for the poor family of the real victim. They have to witness all the sympathy the convicted murder of their daughter gets. I am disgusted with all this.



Since he is German, we can at least wonder how he knows she would have walked. Is he an expert on American criminal procedure? Otherwise, it sounds as if he is repeating what some but not all TV pundits have said. Lisa Bloom on CNN says just the opposite. And she is just the example that springs to mind.

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Offline max


Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:55 am

Posts: 1564

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:17 am   Post subject: Re: some trial overview   

max wrote:
ttrroonniicc wrote:
max wrote:
The story gave me the chills. I am not sure if you can call it 'evidence'. It describes a guy passed out on the side. Most likely Rudy. This gives the story of Rudy more credibility, but we need to know more about the events that lead up to the murder of MK to determine if one is more/less responsible than any of the others. Since they are not telling... sh-))

How many 'points of congruence' do you register between that story and the crime scene and possible actors?

It has to be about the night - a relation of amandas role on the night and her attempt to explain it's less of a short story more of a 'confession' ... there was plenty of evidence too much in fact and much of it wasn't addressed because although it was damning it was secondary evidence (this story for instance).

The evidence they committed AK on was completely damning - the most certain evidence.

I hear you. The point was does it change anything? Does it matter if Rudy was telling the truth and not in the bedroom while the murder accured? He clearly was involved in what lead up to the murder, and he didn't call an ambulance to try to save her. So far I see them all 3 as equally responsible.
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Offline nowo


Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 12:35 pm

Posts: 186

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:47 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Jester said:
Quote:
Just thinking out loud ... but Amanda's lawyer has done everything he could to distance her from media attention in the US. Amanda and her family have done the opposite. Her lawyer said just a couple of days ago that this latest media attention will not help. I think Amanda should have listened to her lawyer.

Initially, in the first few hours, all the media support was for Amanda, with names like Senator Cantwell, and Clinton, being attached to the case. Just a few days later, more and more people are taking the time to find out what this case is all about. The more they learn, the worse it looks for Amanda. It shouldn't take too long for people to walk away from the case altogether. At the time of the appeal, when Amanda could maybe really use some strong support, everyone will be long gone. Amanda is her own worst enemy at every turn.


I thnk this is a good point, and I do hope as the dust settles that there is a 'second wave' of US commentary on the actual evidence and the judicial process we have just followed.
Another thing which would help would be for the Massei (presumably) Report to be published in English. My understanding from the Micheli report is that they don't translate or allow digital copies of the whole report, just excerpts. If on this occasion, given the international audience, they were to put a read-only translation on, say, the Ministry of Justice website, it would go a long way to subvert the subverters.
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Offline lamaha


Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:08 am

Posts: 36

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:15 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Hello, a de-lurker here!
I've been reading this forum ever since the verdict, and thank you for all your hard work.
I'm posting because I just saw an article on the Daily Mail online which seems to be gathering support for Amanda. Would be good if people moew knowledgabkle than myself could go there and post!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... urder.html

For instance:
Quote:
The knife that is alleged to have been used in the murder of Meredith is crucial, because the prosecution says it had traces of DNA from the victim and Knox.

The 12in kitchen knife was found in Sollecito's apartment, further linking the couple to the killing.

But question marks have long surrounded whether it was the murder weapon, and how exactly the police came to find it.

The court heard evidence that suggested the knife could not have made two of the three slash wounds to Meredith's neck. Furthermore, it did not match the bloody imprint of a knife left on bedclothes at the scene.

How police 'discovered' the knife has also raised eyebrows - it was selected from several owned by Sollecito that were in his kitchen cutlery drawer.

Officers testified that there was a strong smell of bleach in the apartment and that the knife looked exceptionally clean. Using 'police intuition', they decided it might be of interest, despite the fact it had no visible stains or notable characteristics.
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Offline Jester


User avatar


Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:24 pm

Posts: 2500

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:36 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Fly by Night wrote:
jfk1191 wrote:
Rudy- I arrived after eating Kabob


That's right - and Rudy was at the same location as Amanda when that happened. Amanda was not at Sollecito's flat that evening!


In case anyone is wondering, this indeed was established through phone records during the trial.


Question of clarification ... I thought Amanda was not at Raffaele's when Patrick texted her, but that she was at Raffaele's a little bit later when the Eastern European woman stopped by to say that she didn't need a ride to the train station. I also thought that she received the text away from Raffaele's, but may have responded to it at Raffaele's, as she didn't respond immediately.
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Offline Jester


User avatar


Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:24 pm

Posts: 2500

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:48 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

nowo wrote:

I thnk this is a good point, and I do hope as the dust settles that there is a 'second wave' of US commentary on the actual evidence and the judicial process we have just followed.
Another thing which would help would be for the Massei (presumably) Report to be published in English. My understanding from the Micheli report is that they don't translate or allow digital copies of the whole report, just excerpts. If on this occasion, given the international audience, they were to put a read-only translation on, say, the Ministry of Justice website, it would go a long way to subvert the subverters.


Great suggestion. I think that would be exactly the solution for putting an end to any speculation about what really happened in court ... even a partial English translation of the Micheli report would go a long way to ending the speculation. It would also help Amanda's parents understand why their daughter is convicted of murder ... or ... if they will already receive an English translation ... go a long way towards ensuring that what they have to say about it in public is accurate.
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Offline MikeMCSG


Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:14 am

Posts: 207

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:55 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Jester wrote:
Just thinking out loud ... but Amanda's lawyer has done everything he could to distance her from media attention in the US. Amanda and her family have done the opposite. Her lawyer said just a couple of days ago that this latest media attention will not help. I think Amanda should have listened to her lawyer.

Initially, in the first few hours, all the media support was for Amanda, with names like Senator Cantwell, and Clinton, being attached to the case. Just a few days later, more and more people are taking the time to find out what this case is all about. The more they learn, the worse it looks for Amanda. It shouldn't take too long for people to walk away from the case altogether. At the time of the appeal, when Amanda could maybe really use some strong support, everyone will be long gone. Amanda is her own worst enemy at every turn.


You're entirely right (as is Ghirga) about the likely effects of the campaign but it's a little unfair to pin it on Amanda herself. None of the anti-American bias crap has come out of her mouth and her latest writings and work request at least hint at some resignation to her fate. Her worst enemies are her family and their refusal to even take a moment to reflect on the verdict.
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Offline coolbeach


Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:17 pm

Posts: 43

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:01 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Hi.

I also lurk here and don't post much. But I just wanted to thank everyone for their hard work and dedication to making this board truthful. And by posting links to back up comments. I can't bear to watch TV here anymore(I am in NJ, USA). It is so biased and I am sick of seeing AK's parents all over the place crying the blue's about their daughter/legal system and bashing Italy. I get so mad I find myself yelling at the TV. I just can't believe these people. But, it is their daughter and they do not want to beleive that she could commit a murder. I actually feel sorry for them at times(not to many though). If they could see themselves thru someone else's eyes they really do look pathetic. It's ironic because if it was turned around and she was found innocent I do believe they would have praised the Italian legal system for such a great job and saving their daughter. I have no doubt in my mind that they both are guilty, I just wish someone would speak up about what really happened so we can all know the truth. The conclusions that were drawn are excellent, but I feel some details are left out or missing. I think if anyone will breakdown it will be RS and he will throw AK under the bus. He is the weakest link and has remained silent thru all of this. I think this makes him look more reliable. AK took the stand and "told a lot of rubbish". We are no better off now than if she chose to remain silent. Just another act for her. I am starting to agree with the posters here who felt she thought she was acting in a play. Seems like it now to me especially after her closeing message with the mask of a murderer. Not one mention of Meridith - and those fake hand gesters as if she was really Italian and all of the "mama mia's" during the trial. Please....
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