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XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 - Dec 9, 09

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Lancelotti wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Here, let's fix them:

She also claimed that the next morning she came back to the flat, found blood and Meredith's door locked, but did not call the police or in fact anyone. Instead she took a shower and washed her hair in a bloodstained bathroom.

she found the front door open, blood in the small bathroom (but I think she said that was after the shower). She asked if anybody is there and nobody answered.
She found Meredith's door locked and a window smashed when she came back with Raffaele.

Quote:
Rudy Guede's unflushed faeces now eight hours old and presumably pretty smelly - were in the toilet, and it was one of those ledge ones so they sit above the water. She didn't flush them, but brushed and blow dried her hair all standing in the small bathroom next to them.
other bathroom


Quote:
When police got to his place, they found a large kitchen knife that later turned out to match one of the wounds. It had apparently been cleaned with bleach, but had Meredith's DNA trapped in a groove near the tip of the blade. Knox's DNA was on the handle.
no proof for bleach, but it surely had been cleaned before as it was found in a drawer.


Knox said it was after the shower but there is no way to confirm this; people who saw the scene tend to disbelieve her. I think they are right. She must have seen the blood. As for the window being smashed, as I correctly noted, her version does not coincide with Sollecito's. He said the door was open. If it was, she would have seen the room in disarray and the window smashed. Her account is not really credible. I am not sure you are right about Knox not discovering Meredith's door locked until she came back with Sollecito either.

Both bathrooms are pretty small. I don't think saying "small" or "other" bathroom really changes anything. Maybe we should just say "bathroom", although as I noted earlier, she would have walked past Filomena's room to get there.

As for bleach, there is no proof that bleach was purchased on the morning of the murder, but the knife was cleaned with bleach. Even Candace admits that. She says everyone in Italy does this routinely, especially after slaughtering chickens in the kitchen.

The knife in question is compatible with one of the wounds.

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Offline justlooking


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Michael wrote:
Actually, Butters did say English wasn't their first language.


Yes, I did see that, but that's no excuse for spelling The Grauniad incorrectly.

;).

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

The Bard wrote:
Thanks for taking the video down Skep. I was actually surprised at my own reaction to it - I burst into tears again. I know I'm a wimp. But this last few days has really served to bring Meredith and the suffering of her family into very sharp focus. The job of TJMK and this board has been achieved. Meredith is in everyone's minds, in all her innocence. That crime scene is horrific and has no place in discussions at this time, shoved into our faces with no explanation as to what it was. To me this is typical Cess Pit behaviour, and these people have no place here. It just shows the depths they will stoop to to make a point. Not a shred of respect or decorum. I will stop reading until they have slunk off I think, I can't bear their ugliness here. Not now. It's just not proper at this time. I expect they will be highly delighted with the upset they have caused. What little minds, what cold hearts.


The lack of respect for the victim and her family is an all too common theme, and it manifests itself on so many levels.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

jfk1191 wrote:
The Machine wrote:

I defy you to find one factual error on TJMK.


"It appears that the knife has Amanda’s DNA on the handle and Meredith’s DNA on the blade, and it was cleaned with bleach and then hidden in a shoe box at Raffaele’s apartment. "

Machine Oct 7, 2008

here's one needing correction.


It seems to me that by beginning the sentence with "it appears that" TM gives himself the opportunity for correction and signals to the reader that his sentence is subject to correction. Just my opinion.

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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

jfk1191 wrote:
The Machine wrote:

I defy you to find one factual error on TJMK.


"It appears that the knife has Amanda’s DNA on the handle and Meredith’s DNA on the blade, and it was cleaned with bleach and then hidden in a shoe box at Raffaele’s apartment. "

Machine Oct 7, 2008

here's one needing correction.

For God's sake JFK,
Everybody knows by now that the knife was not hidden but standing out there in the drawer, catching the investigators'eyes for its shine after it has been throughly scrubbed with bleach. Now, what's that supposed to mean?

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:38 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Lancelotti wrote:
she found the front door open, blood in the small bathroom (but I think she said that was after the shower). She asked if anybody is there and nobody answered.
She found Meredith's door locked and a window smashed when she came back with Raffaele.


No, Amanda stated she saw the blood BEFORE getting in the shower. She even repeated it on the stand. She found Meredith's door locked on her first visit Lancelotti.

Quote:
other bathroom


No, she blow dried her hair in the large bathroom with the poo. She used Filomena's hair dryer that was kept in the large bathroom.

Stefanoni testified on the stand that in her expert scientific opinion, the knife was cleaned with bleach...as that would have been the only thing that would have degraded the biological sample to such a degree. You may not agree with her, or believe her, but that is merely your 'opinion'...while her opinion is classed as 'evidence'.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Jools wrote:
Did Amanda Knox Do It? by Judy Bachrach
WoWoWow



After seeing Judy B on television I don't think I can read another word she writes. Vanity Fair is primarily an entertainment magazine, a kind of glossy, upscale people magazine. It is too bad Vanity Fair didn't put one of its good investigative reporters on the case. Judy B just wants to get a cover story and photo out of this, possibly a book. In her mind, the end justifies the means.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Skep wrote:
The knife in question is compatible with one of the wounds.


The fatal wound.

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Offline anne


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Have you ever seen that? Hard to watch with reality in mind:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfvb6wo4qe8


Last edited by anne on Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:

As for bleach, there is no proof that bleach was purchased on the morning of the murder, but the knife was cleaned with bleach. Even Candace admits that. She says everyone in Italy does this routinely, especially after slaughtering chickens in the kitchen.


HAHAHAH
Using bleach to clean knives?? Please give me a break. After 25 years in this country I've never seen anybody doing that.And never did it myself when living in the US. Spin, spin, spin

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Offline Geologist


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

nicki wrote:
jfk1191 wrote:
The Machine wrote:

I defy you to find one factual error on TJMK.


"It appears that the knife has Amanda’s DNA on the handle and Meredith’s DNA on the blade, and it was cleaned with bleach and then hidden in a shoe box at Raffaele’s apartment. "

Machine Oct 7, 2008

here's one needing correction.

For God's sake JFK,
Everybody knows by now that the knife was not hidden but standing out there in the drawer, catching the investigators'eyes for its shine after it has been throughly scrubbed with bleach. Now, what's that supposed to mean?


Trying to debate with Knox supporters is like trying to debate Creationists.

It's like trying to play whack-a-mole, they dismiss one bit of evidence, only to be confrinted by 10 other bits that are unconnected.

They always appear claiming that some tiny nit-picked piece of the evidence is wrong (usualy due to a simple mistake), then proclaim that the entire trial is a sham.

They seam to forget that to find both suspects innocent, they need to not only disprove the entire body of evidence but also in such a way that a coherent story emerges and this just does not appear to be possible.

Ultimately the people that need convincing are not the hard-core posters, it's the lurkers of which there are many.

Foolish arguments that are repeatedly dismissed are far more telling to lurkers, than repeating ad-infinitum long-debunked issues.
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Offline Lancelotti


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Michael wrote:
She found Meredith's door locked on her first visit Lancelotti.

??? when exactly? after the shower or before?

Quote:
other bathroom

no, she blow dried her hair in the large bathroom with the poo. She used Filomena's hair dryer that was kept in the large bathroom.

Yes, the other bathroom! not the one she took the shower in.

Quote:
Stefanoni testified on the stand that in her expert scientific opinion, the knife was cleaned with bleach...as that would have been the only thing that would have degraded the biological sample to such a degree. You may not agree with her, or believe her, but that is merely your 'opinion'...while her opinion is classed as 'evidence'.

Well, we just learnt that apparently all Italians clean their knives with bleach. The knife was found in the drawer, of course it had been cleaned before.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Geologist wrote:
nicki wrote:
jfk1191 wrote:
The Machine wrote:

I defy you to find one factual error on TJMK.


"It appears that the knife has Amanda’s DNA on the handle and Meredith’s DNA on the blade, and it was cleaned with bleach and then hidden in a shoe box at Raffaele’s apartment. "

Machine Oct 7, 2008

here's one needing correction.

For God's sake JFK,
Everybody knows by now that the knife was not hidden but standing out there in the drawer, catching the investigators'eyes for its shine after it has been throughly scrubbed with bleach. Now, what's that supposed to mean?


Trying to debate with Knox supporters is like trying to debate Creationists.

It's like trying to play whack-a-mole, they dismiss one bit of evidence, only to be confrinted by 10 other bits that are unconnected.

They always appear claiming that some tiny nit-picked piece of the evidence is wrong (usualy due to a simple mistake), then proclaim that the entire trial is a sham.

They seam to forget that to find both suspects innocent, they need to not only disprove the entire body of evidence but also in such a way that a coherent story emerges and this just does not appear to be possible.

Ultimately the people that need convincing are not the hard-core posters, its the lurker of whcih there are many.

Foolish arguments that are repeatedly dismissed are far more telling than repeating ad-infinitum long-debunked issues.


Yes, so it is pointless to even try.

I believe the average lurker is way too smart to be taken in, but the goal of these trollish time-wasters is to lure them. A note to all lurkers: these people think you are stupid and will fall for their BS. I know this is unlikely. You are way smarter than they are.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Lancelotti wrote:
Michael wrote:
She found Meredith's door locked on her first visit Lancelotti.

??? when exactly? after the shower or before?

Quote:
other bathroom

no, she blow dried her hair in the large bathroom with the poo. She used Filomena's hair dryer that was kept in the large bathroom.

Yes, the other bathroom! not the one she took the shower in.

Quote:
Stefanoni testified on the stand that in her expert scientific opinion, the knife was cleaned with bleach...as that would have been the only thing that would have degraded the biological sample to such a degree. You may not agree with her, or believe her, but that is merely your 'opinion'...while her opinion is classed as 'evidence'.

Well, we just learnt that apparently all Italians clean their knives with bleach. The knife was found in the drawer, of course it had been cleaned before.


There is no irony so big that it can't be lost on some. Just in case anyone missed it: All Italians do not clean their knives with bleach.

The most interesting thing about this knife is that it never was thrown out as evidence, a claim that was repeatedly made by FOA and its distant cousin, the local core of family supporters headed by Chris Mellas. How many times has Mellas stated that the knife was thrown out? He said it to my husband's face. But it turned out to be false. We don't yet know how much weight the judges and jury assigned to it, and won't for three months.

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Offline Esperanza


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

DriveByDoc wrote:
Hi,

Another long time lurker de-cloaking, as it were.

First, thanks to all the tireless efforts by members of this board in collecting and distilling information about this case. It's been a fascinating and saddening experience wading through everything from individual posts, powerpoint presentations, timelines and the thoughtful analysis and informed opinions expressed so eloquently here.

The thing I find most appealing here is that the only agenda is the truth in whatever form it takes. Far from being pro-anyone-in-particular, the only goal is justice, which is the ideal for a civilized society.

If I might jump in on the discussion:

lauowolf wrote:
The sentencing, though, speaks to the jury's perceptions of Amanda and Raphaele, how they accessed their characters. And they did not sentence them harshly, considering their actions. So, rather than looking at Amanda's sexiness and condemning her as evil, I think they looked at her youth, and her obvious ignorance of right behavior, and pitied her.


A rehabilitative prison system is
defendents, and luckily for me
the court agreed with me, but I am disturbed by the media hype in the US that threatens to derail the most important aspect of this case - justice for Meredith Kercher.

I am sending my best thoughts to the Kercher family and I'll light a candle for Meredith. She'll not be forgotten.

DriveByDoc I think so too. The Italian Court of Justice showed honour and mercy in their verdict which perhaps the extended victims in the families of the perpretators this nightmare will some day understand. The Italian Court of Justice decided to allow them out in 12 or 13 years instead of the 25/ 30 they would have received if they'd received life sentences. This gives them the hope of rehabilitation and the possibility of a life and happiness. I am glad of this I have to say. No matter how horrified or disgusted I am by their crimes - I cannot myself imagine cutting their lives off completely (I believe it's called murder) and hope that one day they come to understand.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Lancelotti wrote:
Michael wrote:
She found Meredith's door locked on her first visit Lancelotti.

??? when exactly? after the shower or before?

Quote:
other bathroom

no, she blow dried her hair in the large bathroom with the poo. She used Filomena's hair dryer that was kept in the large bathroom.

Yes, the other bathroom! not the one she took the shower in.

Quote:
Stefanoni testified on the stand that in her expert scientific opinion, the knife was cleaned with bleach...as that would have been the only thing that would have degraded the biological sample to such a degree. You may not agree with her, or believe her, but that is merely your 'opinion'...while her opinion is classed as 'evidence'.

Well, we just learnt that apparently all Italians clean their knives with bleach. The knife was found in the drawer, of course it had been cleaned before.


The statement I amended about the hair drying was just fine. Lancelotti is grasping at straws now. In the bathroom where Knox blow-dried her hair was a toilet filled with feces, which would have been sitting there for at least eight hours. The point is that Knox was in the same bathroom, drying her hair, next to a toilet containing human feces. That bathroom must have stunk to high heaven. Yet this did not deter Knox from her task. The point of the blog writer is fairly clear and it stands with the minor clarification provided. It doesn't matter for the sake of this argument "which" bathroom it was -- it was the bathroom Knox was standing in while she dried her hair. How's that?

As for when Knox found Meredith's door locked, before or after her shower, she claims in her email that it was not until she returned to the cottage with Sollecito. But who knows if this is true or not? If I had time right now, I would compare with what she said to the court. But in her email, she says that she told Sollecito about strange things at home and he "suggested i call one of my roommates, so i called filomena". In fact, she called Meredith first and then Filomena.

No easy task for the judges and jury to wade through this obfuscation.

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Offline Esperanza


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

I was replying in hte above to another of your posts DriveByDoc but attached it to the wrong one... sorry... meant it in reference to the post about honour and mercy.
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Lancelotti wrote:
Michael wrote:
She found Meredith's door locked on her first visit Lancelotti.

??? when exactly? after the shower or before?

Quote:
other bathroom

no, she blow dried her hair in the large bathroom with the poo. She used Filomena's hair dryer that was kept in the large bathroom.

Yes, the other bathroom! not the one she took the shower in.

Quote:
Stefanoni testified on the stand that in her expert scientific opinion, the knife was cleaned with bleach...as that would have been the only thing that would have degraded the biological sample to such a degree. You may not agree with her, or believe her, but that is merely your 'opinion'...while her opinion is classed as 'evidence'.

Well, we just learnt that apparently all Italians clean their knives with bleach. The knife was found in the drawer, of course it had been cleaned before.

We just LEARNT WHAT??
People do not usually clean cutlery with bleach in Italy or anywhere else BECAUSE IT SMELLS AND TASTES BAD AND ON TOP OF IT IT'S TOXIC.
Now plese drop this bleach thing Lancelotti, you're are truly making a fool out of yourself.

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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

jfk1191 wrote:
The Machine wrote:

I defy you to find one factual error on TJMK.


"It appears that the knife has Amanda’s DNA on the handle and Meredith’s DNA on the blade, and it was cleaned with bleach and then hidden in a shoe box at Raffaele’s apartment. "

Machine Oct 7, 2008

here's one needing correction.


I couldn't verify the information about the knife being hidden in a shoe box, which is why I wrote "appears". I got the information from Damian's blog before he closed it to the public. He had translated an Italian newspaper article into English.

I also provided a link for the newspaper article and quoted Damian's translation verbatim.


Last edited by The Machine on Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Lancelotti wrote:
??? when exactly? after the shower or before?


See if you can work 'that' out from her email.

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Offline The 411


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Corrina wrote:
I would be curious to know how many other inmates submitted "stories". On what planet does Amanda Knox have blonde hair, people? Good lord. My guess is, the competition wasn't too fierce if this was the winning entry.



HA! HA! Of course, this is a great question! Wouldn't that be funny to learn that she was the lone contestant!

I heard (in an interview on TV with AK's friend Madison) that AK had met another AMERICAN prisoner at Capanne. This piqued my interest. I wonder who that woman is, and what she's in for...

Does anyone know?
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:14 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

American coverage of the Amanda Knox case has been terrible

Jarrett Skorup

EXAMINER

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:15 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

The 411 wrote:
Corrina wrote:
I would be curious to know how many other inmates submitted "stories". On what planet does Amanda Knox have blonde hair, people? Good lord. My guess is, the competition wasn't too fierce if this was the winning entry.



HA! HA! Of course, this is a great question! Wouldn't that be funny to learn that she was the lone contestant!
I heard (in an interview on TV with AK's friend Madison) that AK had met another AMERICAN prisoner at Capanne. This piqued my interest. I wonder who that woman is, and what she's in for...

Does anyone know?


Like that award-winning Italian American journalist!

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Skep wrote:
Like that award-winning Italian American journalist!


Oh yeah. What was that award for again?

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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

HAHAHAH
Using bleach to clean knives?? Please give me a break. After 25 years in this country I've never seen anybody doing that.And never did it myself when living in the US. Spin, spin, spin[/quote]


It even ruins knives. RS certainly wouldn't have used it unless for some other reason.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Michael wrote:
Lancelotti wrote:
??? when exactly? after the shower or before?


See if you can work 'that' out from her email.



It is hard to make sense of Meredith's door. In the email, Knox said she did not knock on it until she came back with Sollecito because, when she saw that it was closed earlier, to her it meant that Meredith was sleeping. But she also claimed elsewhere that Meredith locked (and thus closed) her door when she was using the bathroom. And what about when Meredith was not home? Somehow, I find it hard to imagine that someone who locked her door while in the shower would leave it open when she was away. Then there is the odd claim, contradicted strenuously by Filomena, that it was normal for Meredith to have her door locked.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Ava wrote:
HAHAHAH
Using bleach to clean knives?? Please give me a break. After 25 years in this country I've never seen anybody doing that.And never did it myself when living in the US. Spin, spin, spin



It even ruins knives. RS certainly wouldn't have used it unless for some other reason.[/quote]

Yes. If the knife is stainless steel, owners are strongly advised not to use bleach.

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Offline Ava


Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:08 pm

Posts: 943

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Wel, it is very simple.. it is just what I said. An appeal is a new trial. There is a kind of double jeopardy rule but with a different simmetry in the system. If the prosecution doesn't appeal, when the appeal trial takes place the first degree sentence cannot be increased. Ghirga has won a definitive goal by avoiding the life sentence. But the jeopardy doesn't work on the reduction: the time could be reduced by onother court. It could happen if the defense - and the defendant - find more reason for mitigation. Btw, in this particular case I deem that if two of the main charges stand (aggravated murder and slander), even if Amanda tells the truth the reduction with full mitigation cannot go below a 22 year sentence.[/quote]


thanks
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Offline martin


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:28 pm

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

nicki wrote:
Lancelotti wrote:
Michael wrote:
She found Meredith's door locked on her first visit Lancelotti.

??? when exactly? after the shower or before?

Quote:
other bathroom

no, she blow dried her hair in the large bathroom with the poo. She used Filomena's hair dryer that was kept in the large bathroom.

Yes, the other bathroom! not the one she took the shower in.

Quote:
Stefanoni testified on the stand that in her expert scientific opinion, the knife was cleaned with bleach...as that would have been the only thing that would have degraded the biological sample to such a degree. You may not agree with her, or believe her, but that is merely your 'opinion'...while her opinion is classed as 'evidence'.

Well, we just learnt that apparently all Italians clean their knives with bleach. The knife was found in the drawer, of course it had been cleaned before.

We just LEARNT WHAT??
People do not usually clean cutlery with bleach in Italy or anywhere else BECAUSE IT SMELLS AND TASTES BAD AND ON TOP OF IT IT'S TOXIC.
Now plese drop this bleach thing Lancelotti, you're are truly making a fool out of yourself.

My housekeeper told me that she never ever used bleach in my house; she tolds me it#s more for industrial use
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Offline martin


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:28 pm

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Michael wrote:
Lancelotti wrote:
??? when exactly? after the shower or before?


See if you can work 'that' out from her email.



It is hard to make sense of Meredith's door. In the email, Knox said she did not knock on it until she came back with Sollecito because, when she saw that it was closed earlier, to her it meant that Meredith was sleeping. But she also claimed elsewhere that Meredith locked (and thus closed) her door when she was using the bathroom. And what about when Meredith was not home? Somehow, I find it hard to imagine that someone who locked her door while in the shower would leave it open when she was away. Then there is the odd claim, contradicted strenuously by Filomena, that it was normal for Meredith to have her door locked.


Maybe she decided to lock the door after she found out that her money had been stolen?
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

martin wrote:
nicki wrote:
Lancelotti wrote:
Michael wrote:
She found Meredith's door locked on her first visit Lancelotti.

??? when exactly? after the shower or before?

Quote:
other bathroom

no, she blow dried her hair in the large bathroom with the poo. She used Filomena's hair dryer that was kept in the large bathroom.

Yes, the other bathroom! not the one she took the shower in.

Quote:
Stefanoni testified on the stand that in her expert scientific opinion, the knife was cleaned with bleach...as that would have been the only thing that would have degraded the biological sample to such a degree. You may not agree with her, or believe her, but that is merely your 'opinion'...while her opinion is classed as 'evidence'.

Well, we just learnt that apparently all Italians clean their knives with bleach. The knife was found in the drawer, of course it had been cleaned before.

We just LEARNT WHAT??
People do not usually clean cutlery with bleach in Italy or anywhere else BECAUSE IT SMELLS AND TASTES BAD AND ON TOP OF IT IT'S TOXIC.
Now plese drop this bleach thing Lancelotti, you're are truly making a fool out of yourself.

My housekeeper told me that she never ever used bleach in my house; she tolds me it#s more for industrial use


I certainly don't use it and neither does the person who cleans my house. She doesn't use it for any of her clients.

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Offline martin


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:28 pm

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Ava wrote:
Wel, it is very simple.. it is just what I said. An appeal is a new trial. There is a kind of double jeopardy rule but with a different simmetry in the system. If the prosecution doesn't appeal, when the appeal trial takes place the first degree sentence cannot be increased. Ghirga has won a definitive goal by avoiding the life sentence. But the jeopardy doesn't work on the reduction: the time could be reduced by onother court. It could happen if the defense - and the defendant - find more reason for mitigation. Btw, in this particular case I deem that if two of the main charges stand (aggravated murder and slander), even if Amanda tells the truth the reduction with full mitigation cannot go below a 22 year sentence.



thanks[/quote]
But she can be released earlier on parole?
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Offline martin


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:28 pm

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Like that award-winning Italian American journalist!

Who?
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Offline martin


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:28 pm

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:38 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Esperanza wrote:
DriveByDoc wrote:
Hi,

Another long time lurker de-cloaking, as it were.

First, thanks to all the tireless efforts by members of this board in collecting and distilling information about this case. It's been a fascinating and saddening experience wading through everything from individual posts, powerpoint presentations, timelines and the thoughtful analysis and informed opinions expressed so eloquently here.

The thing I find most appealing here is that the only agenda is the truth in whatever form it takes. Far from being pro-anyone-in-particular, the only goal is justice, which is the ideal for a civilized society.

If I might jump in on the discussion:

lauowolf wrote:
The sentencing, though, speaks to the jury's perceptions of Amanda and Raphaele, how they accessed their characters. And they did not sentence them harshly, considering their actions. So, rather than looking at Amanda's sexiness and condemning her as evil, I think they looked at her youth, and her obvious ignorance of right behavior, and pitied her.


A rehabilitative prison system is
defendents, and luckily for me
the court agreed with me, but I am disturbed by the media hype in the US that threatens to derail the most important aspect of this case - justice for Meredith Kercher.

I am sending my best thoughts to the Kercher family and I'll light a candle for Meredith. She'll not be forgotten.

DriveByDoc I think so too. The Italian Court of Justice showed honour and mercy in their verdict which perhaps the extended victims in the families of the perpretators this nightmare will some day understand. The Italian Court of Justice decided to allow them out in 12 or 13 years instead of the 25/ 30 they would have received if they'd received life sentences. This gives them the hope of rehabilitation and the possibility of a life and happiness. I am glad of this I have to say. No matter how horrified or disgusted I am by their crimes - I cannot myself imagine cutting their lives off completely (I believe it's called murder) and hope that one day they come to understand.

I agree!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

martin wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Like that award-winning Italian American journalist!

Who?


I can't remember her name. She's a Cook of some sort.

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Offline anne


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:47 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

I would just like to add that i am somehow convinced that AK never dryed (dried?) her hair in any of those bathrooms on that day. Surly they would have found LOADS of hair of her if this was true. But i suppose i have mentioned this thought before already....


edit edit edit....fingers are too fast at times...


Last edited by anne on Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:49 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:47 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

peppersue wrote:
I am new to this forum, so I hope I'm doing this right--as I really haven't followed the later media coverage after the family started to court the media, and didn't see the CBS show, I've been absolutely shocked and dismayed at the one sided reporting going on right now, with no attempt for objective reporting--At least, remembering following the case in the beginning and what I had thought then, and now kind of stepping into what apperently has been developing since just shocks me--I've never felt more like I'm being sold a bill of goods than I felt ---this now one has to agree with--when the run up to the Iraq war, and I site that only because I my self felt I was being sold a one sided bill of goods then and I hope it's all right to site that---I started googling the case to see if I were going crazy because my views were so different, but now feel incredulous that the media has lost all sense of objectivity---and have been learning so much reading this site--as to WHY they did what they did, I've felt it had something to do with Meredith and Amanda's divergent lifestyles, but I haven't read enough to give an intelligent answer-am just glad to find a place where the facts are available--and though I'm a great Douglas Preston fan, I think he's either being hoodwinked or has an agenda--and am very worried about all the anti-Italian sentiment that is going on right now---this all has a mob mentality kind of tone.



Welcome, peppersue -- I just now saw your post. It does have a mob mentality, and unfortunately Doug Preston seems to be fanning the flames. I think his motive is twofold: financial (sell more copies of his "Italy" book) and personal (get revenge on the prosecutor who thwarted his effort to lead a parallel investigation with Spezi. I think in addition to having an agenda, he has been hoodwinked -- by Mario Spezi, with whom he wrote the book. Spezi has long hated Mignini; I believe he has manipulated Preston to some extent. But as a journalist (which Preston claims to be), Doug Preston is expected to cross-check and validate his sources. So in my opinion he is guilty of bad journalism, bad judgement or ulterior and crass motives. Take your pick.

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Offline DriveByDoc


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Another article:

"Think of Meredith Kercher not Bambi-eyed killer Amanda Knox"

[urlx=http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/12/08/think-of-meredith-kercher-not-bambi-eyed-killer-amanda-knox-115875-21880718]Mirror.co.uk[/urlx]
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Offline Lancelotti


Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:09 pm

Posts: 378

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

nicki wrote:
Lancelotti wrote:
Well, we just learnt that apparently all Italians clean their knives with bleach. The knife was found in the drawer, of course it had been cleaned before.

We just LEARNT WHAT??
People do not usually clean cutlery with bleach in Italy or anywhere else BECAUSE IT SMELLS AND TASTES BAD AND ON TOP OF IT IT'S TOXIC.
Now plese drop this bleach thing Lancelotti, you're are truly making a fool out of yourself.

Oh, really? You mean people don't ususally clean cutlery with bleach...not even in Italy??? Wow!


anne:
Quote:
I would just like to add that i am somehow convinced that AK never dryed (dried?) her hair in any of those bathrooms on that day. Surly they would have found LOADS of hair of her if this was true.

Maybe they did find her hair or maybe they didn't because there wasn't any hair or they weren't looking for her hair in the bathroom. We don't know.


Last edited by Lancelotti on Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

DriveByDoc wrote:
Another article:

"Think of Meredith Kercher not Bambi-eyed killer Amanda Knox"

[urlx=http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/12/08/think-of-meredith-kercher-not-bambi-eyed-killer-amanda-knox-115875-21880718]Mirror.co.uk[/urlx]


From the opinion piece:
"I’ll reserve my sympathy for Arline Kercher, who says she can never bring herself to sell the family’s Surrey home because if she did Meredith would never know where to find her.
“It’s silly really,” says Arline. No, it’s not. When the physical bond has been ripped away all that’s left for the bereaved are emotional ties and associations."

And this in a related article from the same source:

Arline says the family have been “living a nightmare” for two years and adds poignantly: “We’re the ones who have been given a life sentence.

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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

I just have to say that for me the turning point was that at Meredith's Memorium, Amanda and Raffaele were eating pizza. This was so abhorrent. From that point on, everything they did, or said, was suspect. Was it premedidated? No..but like Girls gone wild..

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

capealadin wrote:
I just have to say that for me the turning point was that at Meredith's Memorium, Amanda and Raffaele were eating pizza. This was so abhorrent. From that point on, everything they did, or said, was suspect. Was it premedidated? No..but like Girls gone wild..



For months, certain people (Candace Dempsey, for example) claimed it was because they were at the police station. It was established during the trial that this is not true. They went from the pizza parlor to the police station, Knox voluntarily.

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Offline Jools


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

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Location: Spain

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
DriveByDoc wrote:
Another article:

"Think of Meredith Kercher not Bambi-eyed killer Amanda Knox"

[urlx=http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/12/08/think-of-meredith-kercher-not-bambi-eyed-killer-amanda-knox-115875-21880718]Mirror.co.uk[/urlx]


From the opinion piece:
"I’ll reserve my sympathy for Arline Kercher, who says she can never bring herself to sell the family’s Surrey home because if she did Meredith would never know where to find her.
“It’s silly really,” says Arline. No, it’s not. When the physical bond has been ripped away all that’s left for the bereaved are emotional ties and associations."

Excellent article!

"Meanwhile, I’d suggest the Knox family take their distasteful publicity machine home and consider themselves fortunate their daughter’s trial was conducted on European not American soil.

They have a special kind of punishment for killers in the good old US of A. It’s called the death penalty. Is that the justice they would have preferred?"

Personally is one of the best articles I have read! well done Sue Carrol for the Mirror!
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

anne wrote:
I would just like to add that i am somehow convinced that AK never dryed (dried?) her hair in any of those bathrooms on that day. Surly they would have found LOADS of hair of her if this was true. But i suppose i have mentioned this thought before already....


edit edit edit....fingers are too fast at times...



OT)) I love your new avatar.

As for the hair, Knox is not clear in the email. She says she went to the other bathroom but does not specify where she dried her hair. Many people are skeptical about the claim because of the way her hair looked in photos taken on Nov 2.

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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Quote:
Maybe they did find her hair or maybe they didn't because there wasn't any hair or they weren't looking for her hair in the bathroom. We don't know.


What do you mean "we" Kemosabe? You mean YOU don't know!
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

martin wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Like that award-winning Italian American journalist!

Who?


Exactly.

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Offline Ava


Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:08 pm

Posts: 943

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:14 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

DriveByDoc wrote:
Another article:

"Think of Meredith Kercher not Bambi-eyed killer Amanda Knox"

[urlx=http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/12/08/think-of-meredith-kercher-not-bambi-eyed-killer-amanda-knox-115875-21880718]Mirror.co.uk[/urlx]


Everytime I read about Arline Kercher or see pictures of her I get so sad.
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Offline Jools


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:15 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
capealadin wrote:
I just have to say that for me the turning point was that at Meredith's Memorium, Amanda and Raffaele were eating pizza. This was so abhorrent. From that point on, everything they did, or said, was suspect. Was it premedidated? No..but like Girls gone wild..



For months, certain people (Candace Dempsey, for example) claimed it was because they were at the police station. It was established during the trial that this is not true. They went from the pizza parlor to the police station, Knox voluntarily.

For months she was nothing but a freaking liar!
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Offline Ava


Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:08 pm

Posts: 943

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

martin wrote:
Ava wrote:
Wel, it is very simple.. it is just what I said. An appeal is a new trial. There is a kind of double jeopardy rule but with a different simmetry in the system. If the prosecution doesn't appeal, when the appeal trial takes place the first degree sentence cannot be increased. Ghirga has won a definitive goal by avoiding the life sentence. But the jeopardy doesn't work on the reduction: the time could be reduced by onother court. It could happen if the defense - and the defendant - find more reason for mitigation. Btw, in this particular case I deem that if two of the main charges stand (aggravated murder and slander), even if Amanda tells the truth the reduction with full mitigation cannot go below a 22 year sentence.



thanks

But she can be released earlier on parole?[/quote]


Yes, I think so.
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Offline Lancelotti


Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:09 pm

Posts: 378

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Jools wrote:
Quote:
Maybe they did find her hair or maybe they didn't because there wasn't any hair or they weren't looking for her hair in the bathroom. We don't know.


What do you mean "we" Kemosabe? You mean YOU don't know!


And YOU do know if they found Amanda's hair in the bathroom? Why don't you tell us then?
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

The one thing that bothers me is...AK and RS did an amazing clean up job.. so why is Rudi's DNA still there?

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Lancelotti wrote:
Jools wrote:
Quote:
Maybe they did find her hair or maybe they didn't because there wasn't any hair or they weren't looking for her hair in the bathroom. We don't know.


What do you mean "we" Kemosabe? You mean YOU don't know!


And YOU do know if they found Amanda's hair in the bathroom? Why don't you tell us then?


What if they had? What would it prove?

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Offline ttrroonniicc


Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:12 pm

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Why did AK say she had a shower when she arrived at the house before noticing anything wrong with the house?

A: she could not be sure that her DNA was not mixed with the victims blood in points around the house. Saying she took a shower in what turned out to be the crime scene excuses this.

In relating her initial arrival back at the house she says she did not notice the break-in - Soll. says the breakin was only noticed by himself and AK when they arrived back at the house (they say to fetch a mop). Soll. said at that point of arrival the door to Filomenas room was open and they could see an obvious break-in. This information came from Soll. later (jail diary).

This excuses AK having a shower in the house (only a small amount of blood in the bathroom and no break-in). Of course she knew about the break-in.

The 'bathmat' shuffle that AK related could be for two reasons:

1. to excuse the pattern of bloody footprints in corridor away from the bedrooms (she relates 'shuffling' with the bathmat from the bathroom to her bedroom - why?)

2. the 'shuffle' was related in the trial - such detail - the bloodied footprint of Soll. the prosecution knew they had on the bathmat. She was trying to 'telegraph' to Soll. in the trial that she had actually tried to clean his footprint, remove HIS evidence and hadn't tried to frame him (so please don't frame me) ...

I am pretty sure that the shower that Soll. and I think Knox separately relate having together (where Soll. cleaned AK's ears) was not in Solls apartment - the shower occurred in the crime scene house quite possibly on the night of the murder.

AK and Soll's cleanup was suspended by the unexpected arrival of the postal police and thereafter their communication was limited to the short time period before their arrest. Specific related details in testimony after the fact (months later) by AK and Soll. in relation to what they knew the police knew about the crime scene (from the press or wherever) is extremely telling when it does not match up. AK has framed herself by relating her actions temporally based on the facts she thought the police knew and because the statements she has made about her actions that morning have consistantly not been corroborated by Soll. The creation of specific testimony in relation to places objects and times couldn't be dismissed by the defence (also the testimony of Kokomani - it would be a fantastical creation). This partial fabrication of scenarios by AK based on the information she had to hand at the time of their fabrication is damning.


Last edited by ttrroonniicc on Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Offline Lancelotti


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Michael wrote:
Lancelotti wrote:
Jools wrote:
Quote:
Maybe they did find her hair or maybe they didn't because there wasn't any hair or they weren't looking for her hair in the bathroom. We don't know.


What do you mean "we" Kemosabe? You mean YOU don't know!


And YOU do know if they found Amanda's hair in the bathroom? Why don't you tell us then?


What if they had? What would it prove?


Nothing I can think of...
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

capealadin wrote:
The one thing that bothers me is...AK and RS did an amazing clean up job.. so why is Rudi's DNA still there?


Not really. All they had to do was clean part of the floor in the corridor, the bathroom and the threshold area in Meredith's room. Rudy left the evidence he did because he went touching everything with bloody hands, tried to help Meredith (at least, claimed to)...he didn't care about leaving evidence, he wasn't squeamish about getting blood on him. It's different for the others. They didn't need to clean much because they didn't leave much 'to' clean, because they stood back away from...well...the mess.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Lancelotti wrote:
Michael wrote:
Lancelotti wrote:
Jools wrote:
Quote:
Maybe they did find her hair or maybe they didn't because there wasn't any hair or they weren't looking for her hair in the bathroom. We don't know.


What do you mean "we" Kemosabe? You mean YOU don't know!


And YOU do know if they found Amanda's hair in the bathroom? Why don't you tell us then?


What if they had? What would it prove?


Nothing I can think of...


Then what's your point?

If the police had found her hair, that's not going to be offered in court as evidence...because it doesn't evidence anything. So, we can't make statements like her hair 'was' there, or that it 'wasn't'.

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Offline Lancelotti


Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:09 pm

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:29 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Michael wrote:
Then what's your point?

If the police had found her hair, that's not going to be offered in court as evidence...because it doesn't evidence anything. So, we can't make statements like her hair 'was' there, or that it 'wasn't'.


I completely agree with you.

I was just responding to this comment: "I would just like to add that i am somehow convinced that AK never dryed (dried?) her hair in any of those bathrooms on that day. Surly they would have found LOADS of hair of her if this was true. But i suppose i have mentioned this thought before already...."
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Lancelotti wrote:
Michael wrote:
Then what's your point?

If the police had found her hair, that's not going to be offered in court as evidence...because it doesn't evidence anything. So, we can't make statements like her hair 'was' there, or that it 'wasn't'.


I completely agree with you.

I was just responding to this comment: "I would just like to add that i am somehow convinced that AK never dryed (dried?) her hair in any of those bathrooms on that day. Surly they would have found LOADS of hair of her if this was true. But i suppose i have mentioned this thought before already...."


The more important question is...does the little bathroom have a power socket? wh-)

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Offline Shirley


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Financial Times

'Mr Sollecito, pale and slim and from southern Italy, was portrayed by the prosecution as a pot-smoking geek in thrall to Ms Knox. His father, Francesco Sollecito, told La Repubblica newspaper yesterday: "The fight will continue against a judicial system that made a mockery of justice, and not just for my son."'
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Shirley wrote:
Financial Times

'Mr Sollecito, pale and slim and from southern Italy, was portrayed by the prosecution as a pot-smoking geek in thrall to Ms Knox. His father, Francesco Sollecito, told La Repubblica newspaper yesterday: "The fight will continue against a judicial system that made a mockery of justice, and not just for my son."'


Yeah, trust Papa Soll to get a mention in the Financial Times ;)

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Offline Shirley


Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:48 pm

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Michael wrote:
Shirley wrote:
Financial Times

'Mr Sollecito, pale and slim and from southern Italy, was portrayed by the prosecution as a pot-smoking geek in thrall to Ms Knox. His father, Francesco Sollecito, told La Repubblica newspaper yesterday: "The fight will continue against a judicial system that made a mockery of justice, and not just for my son."'


Yeah, trust Papa Soll to get a mention in the Financial Times ;)


Financial geek. ;)
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Offline anne


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Location: Berlin Kreuzberg

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
anne wrote:
I would just like to add that i am somehow convinced that AK never dryed (dried?) her hair in any of those bathrooms on that day. Surly they would have found LOADS of hair of her if this was true. But i suppose i have mentioned this thought before already....


edit edit edit....fingers are too fast at times...



OT)) I love your new avatar.

As for the hair, Knox is not clear in the email. She says she went to the other bathroom but does not specify where she dried her hair. Many people are skeptical about the claim because of the way her hair looked in photos taken on Nov 2.


She looks wasted on that pictures.

But also something else struck me. Ttrroonniicc mentioned above (talking about the story of Marie Pace) that she (maybe) stuck her bloodied fingers in her ears. Now that would also fit with her saying "Raffaele cleaned my ears". Just speculation. But i find that whole story, beside everything else, highly incriminating.

Re OT)) Haha, thanks :D They tried to make me look into the camera but it only worked (on another pic) when my brother accidently didn't hold my back anymore and i bumped backwarts looking shocked :o


Last edited by anne on Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Hershon


Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:01 am

Posts: 42

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

The Knox Family are Idiots and some of these other people who condemn Italian Law are idiots too. I'm an American and it doesn't take a Rocket Scientist to understand that if you commit or are accused of committing a crime in another country you will be judged by that country's legal system. Thems the rules. The Knox Family idiots and the Amanda Supporters can't grasp that. Let's say everything they claim is hypothetically correct that Amanda wouldn't be convicted in the United States under our Legal System- So what, that and 50 cents will get you on a Subway. She's was tried in Italian Court under Italian Rules and that's the only thing that counts. Guilty!
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Offline anne


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Michael wrote:
martin wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Like that award-winning Italian American journalist!

Who?


Exactly.


This is fun. Go on :lol:
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Offline Buzz


Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:11 am

Posts: 72

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Hershon wrote:
The Knox Family are Idiots and some of these other people who condemn Italian Law are idiots too. I'm an American and it doesn't take a Rocket Scientist to understand that if you commit or are accused of committing a crime in another country you will be judged by that country's legal system. Thems the rules. The Knox Family idiots and the Amanda Supporters can't grasp that. Let's say everything they claim is hypothetically correct that Amanda wouldn't be convicted in the United States under our Legal System- So what, that and 50 cents will get you on a Subway. She's was tried in Italian Court under Italian Rules and that's the only thing that counts. Guilty!



Amen, brother.
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Offline SomeAlibi


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Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:23 pm

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

On Violet: Which Yummi and someone else were discussing (sorry someone else!), I agree that creative writing students are taught to use allusion, imagery and association in their writings. (BTW my view - AK isn't entirely terrible at imagery but as everyone can see and has said she is utterly hopeless at narrative construction. She's just flipping hard to follow in all of her writings and is disjointed as hell).

Violet as a colour has many connotations as Yummi said. The eponymous flower also features heavily in literature to represent innocence, faithfulness and innocent love (from the beauty of the flower) but also took a very prominent position as alluding to the loss of innocence and death in youth through the character of Ophelia in Hamlet. Hamlet was nagging away at me on the way to work because as I then remembered later, I have seen it mentioned a couple of times in connection with AK; she apparently gave a very good rendition of Hamlet's to be or not to be soliloquy in the documentary that was being filmed in jail but was then stopped when it was clear it was focused on her. I'm pretty sure I also heard her dad citing it in relation to how she was being strong.

So, violet, a roman colour of mourning and affection for the dead and one of Shakespeare's favourite allegories for loss of innocence and death in youth. Violet gloves on the hands that committed the act? A totally fanciful read or just the sort of thing an unstable creative writing student who knows Hamlet would use as a 'secret' allegory or image to please herself? Who knows... someone write and ask her :)

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Last edited by SomeAlibi on Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Fly by Night


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:50 pm   Post subject: Cantwell Gets Clock Cleaned   

Senator Marie Cantwell is skating on very thin ice:

State Dept. Says Amanda Knox Got Fair Trial
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Offline Ferret


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Geologist wrote:
I think when you break the case down into it's simplest forms- in the weeks after the murder you have 6 basic elements:

Kercher, the Appartment and the four original prime suspects.

The only way to link them together is to place Knox at the center, the US news reports can't even see this.

Lets just suppose Knox is innocent (which she isn't) and Guede was the only person there - Knox was still responsible for bringing him into Kerchers life.

Indirectly Knox is still responsible and has shown zero remorse or sadness that her actions ended someone elses life.
This same lack of respect is evident in how she has treated her relatives in Germany "suckers", or dreadful neglect of her younger sister (train sex).

I'm stunned that the parents are still behind her, I'm sure it's because they know more than they are letting on and are now forever tied to Amanda.


How US media and especially broadcast/tv/cable tv media works, they need to fill in air time. I think there is a confusion that laziness can be a good cover for neutrality or objectivity, besides they may go to a completely different topic after the five minutes are up.

The Marriott PR firm knows this, hence each FOA advocate have their bullet points of "lack of evidence" " police abuse" etc, besides knowing each booking agent for many of these shows, and who needs to fill air time

For bona fide journalists in the States, I think if they put a good word or two about Amanda's parents, doubt about the direct evidence or the slurs against Mignini, it helps them for future stories as the FOA will give them access. I sense that from a couple of the Seattle Newspaper reporters.

Also, My guess is that many of these US reporters don't know Italian, besides, "Prego" and "Grappa", so their source of information i kind of poison to start with, because they are relying on FOA, and their handpicked "experts".

On Amanda's parents unwavering support, and refusal to accept the verdict. Parents are never going to give up. They aren't objective observers. They also have their own ulterior motive to fight for Amanda's fate, if they accept the verdict, their world of denial comes crashing down, because all those years of raising Amanda, all those memories are tainted. It is very difficult for a parent to face. It is easier for them to explain this as a miscarriage of justice, then their daughter brutally murdered another woman.

I don't agree with Curt Knox and Eddy Mellas, and I cry a bit of crocodile tears for some of their bills. However they are victims in this. I just give them a free obnoxious card, and try not to judge them too harshly. The people of FOA that I judge pretty harshly are the Tim Egans and Paul Ciolinos, who are just saying whatever as part of their billable hours. Chris Mellas I judge much more harshly because of his antics, that are borderline harassment to clear cut harassment and intimidation. I don't know how to judge Candace Dempsey, except she seemed to learn her "reporting" from Fox News, like putting a question mark in any of her subject, can make her say anything?

As much as Amanda's parents come across as arrogant and obnoxious, I just try to bite my tongue, because I have seen other parents act as zealous when their child is accused or convicted of murder, like Scott Peterson's parents, or Kristen Rossum's parents...
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Offline Ferret


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:01 am   Post subject: Re: Cantwell Gets Clock Cleaned   

Fly by Night wrote:
Senator Marie Cantwell is skating on very thin ice:

State Dept. Says Amanda Knox Got Fair Trial



There is a reason that Senator Cantwell is doing this than Senator Murray. Cantwell can do this without much reprecussion when she comes up for re-election in 2012, or she will have some sort of plausible denialbility Senator Patty Murray, who is in the Senate Democratic Party Leadership and is much more powerful than Senator Cantwell isn't going make waves before the 2010 campaign.

I really don't see Senator Cantwell pushing this strongly, compare to going all out to make sure Boeing gets the US Air Force refuelling aircraft contract, and firebombing South Carolina for getting some of the 787 production line. She may be doing this more of a favor to David Marriott.
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:23 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Yeah, but Michael, How did they skirt around the DNA? I mean, Amanda's DNA was still in the bathroom. HOW did they leave no trace of themselves, but leave so much of Rudi's there. I know that AK and RS are guilty but I just can't understand that evidence. Had there been no evidence of all three, it would be much more understandable to me. Or am I a donkey, and I just don't get it?

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Offline Geologist


Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:31 pm

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:24 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Ferret wrote:
On Amanda's parents unwavering support, and refusal to accept the verdict. Parents are never going to give up. They aren't objective observers. They also have their own ulterior motive to fight for Amanda's fate, if they accept the verdict, their world of denial comes crashing down, because all those years of raising Amanda, all those memories are tainted. It is very difficult for a parent to face. It is easier for them to explain this as a miscarriage of justice, then their daughter brutally murdered another woman.


My sympathy for the Knox's ended when it transpired that Edda knew Amanda was lying about Patrick while he was stil in jail.
There comes a point where you either chose to go down the rabbit hole and start adding to the lie, hoping it will not be noticed, or you pull back and encourage your daughter to tell the truth.

Edda chose to add to the lies, furthering the misery of an innocent man and his family, wasting a colossal amount of police time and dragging her own family into a civil lawsuit. My count puts that at least 6 people who's lives were ruined by her actions: the Lumumba's, Edda, Chris and Deanna.

She reaped what she sowed and was caught out - no sympathy, I've had to make some very tough decisions in my life and if this was my daughter I would have made a decision that would have benifited the rest of the family, not the one already in prision (especially when they are asking you to commit purgery). Edda showed no concern for the greater good of all the people around her, just like her daughter.
Her excuse of not knowing any Itallian was silly, translaters are 10 a penny, it wouldn;t have taken much to go to the local police station and make a statement that could have been sent to the police in Italy.

Like mother, like daughter.


Last edited by Geologist on Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:31 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:25 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Am watching Jane V. Mitchell. G-d, I just have to get past her hair, and focus on watch what's happening.

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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:28 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

and

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Offline Earthling


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:40 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Michael wrote:
Amanda Knox's Mom Tells Her to Have 'Courage'
Knox Family Realized the Verdict Was Guilty When Amanda Began to Cry
By NIKKI BATTISTE and JON MEYERSOHN
PERUGIA, Italy Dec. 9, 2009

ABC NEWS

What, are these parents dim-wits? (sorry) But I mean, look up the Italian word for "guilty" on the internet BEFORE you head on over from the hotel to the reading of your daughter's verdict in a murder trial! (I just did, it's "colpevole," it even sounds like a similar English word, "culpable.") I'm sorry, but did they look up only the word for "innocent" (that's easy, "innocenti") because they were so sure she'd be acquitted??! Wow.
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:41 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

capealadin wrote:
Yeah, but Michael, How did they skirt around the DNA? I mean, Amanda's DNA was still in the bathroom. HOW did they leave no trace of themselves, but leave so much of Rudi's there. I know that AK and RS are guilty but I just can't understand that evidence. Had there been no evidence of all three, it would be much more understandable to me. Or am I a donkey, and I just don't get it?


Hi Capealadin,

You need to get your facts straight.

1. An abundant amount of Sollecito's DNA was found on Meredith's bra clasp.

2. Raffaele Sollecito's forensic expert, Professor Vinci, claimed that he had found Knox's DNA on Meredith's bra. This seems to prove she also handled Meredith's bra.

Apparently, Vincenzo Pascali, Sollecito's chief forensic consultant, also found Knox's DNA on Meredith's bra.

3. The double DNA Knife not only places Amanda Knox in Meredith's room, but also indicates that she inflicted the fatal wound.

4. Amanda Knox's reading lamp was found in Meredith's room. This is further evidence that Amanda Knox was in Meredith's room on the night of the murder.

5. The woman's bloody shoeprint on the pillow under Meredith's body matched Amanda Knox's foot size, but was incompatible with Meredith's foot size. This debunks the myth that Rudy Guede acted alone and clearly places Amanda Knox inside Meredith's room when Meredith was killed.

The crime scene wasn't confined to Meredith's room. Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito were also convicted of stimulating a burglary. Witnesses testified that there were shards of glass strewn on top of Filomena's clothes. This proves that the window was broken after the room had been ransacked.

Amanda Knox's DNA was found mixed with Meredith's blood on the floor of Filomena's room.

Knox's and Sollecito's footprints were in set in Meredith's blood in different parts of the cottage.

Raffaele Sollecito left a bloody footprint on the blue bathmat in the bathroom. Another one was revealed by luminol in the hallway.

Amanda Knox’s footprints were found set in Meredith’s blood in two places in the hallway of the new wing of Meredith’s house. One print was exiting her own room, and one print was outside Meredith’s room, facing into the room. These bloody footprints were only revealed under luminol.

Why do you think Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito both gave multiple conflicting alibis and lied repeatedly?
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Offline Buzz


Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:11 am

Posts: 72

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:41 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

This might be off topic, but has anyone here read The Secret History by Donna Tartt? For some reason, I always thought Knox was influenced by it. Of course, I'm just guessing. But given Knox's interest in creative writing and European history, and that it's a popular book, maybe she read it. It's about six artsy college students and the strained relationships between them that eventually lead to murder within the group. They are studying ancient Greek, think they are smarter than everyone else, drink way too much, and seek extreme emotions through violence and losing control. And then some members of the group make plans to kill another group member to prevent him from revealing a terrible secret.....it's an excellent read. Maybe Knox thought so too?
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Offline The Bard


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Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:45 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Have just had a gracious apology by pm from the poster who posted the You Tube video. Appreciated.

I have to share this gem from abc :


"The debate over the legitimacy of the verdicts continued today on "Good Morning America" where reknowned criminal lawyer Ted Simon and Vanity Fair contributing editor Judy Bachrach assailed the verdict and the Italian justice system.

Simon said the "lack of evidence is both compelling and profound," and that she was convicted of murder despite the fact that there was "no sweat, no salavia, no DNA of Amanda Knox" in Kercher's room.

Bachrach... said Knox "didn't have a chance" because "she is an outsider. If you are an outsider, a foreigner, you don't know a lot of famous powerful people you are sunk." Bachrach said there is a chance that Knox could win her case on appeal. "There is a possibility if Italy is ashamed enough," she said. "She might win on appeal, but it will take a lot of influence…it will take a lot of clout, a lot of work, I'm afraid."



Whaaaat????? If Italy is WHAT???!!!! This takes the biscuit!

Plus there might not have been any DNA of Amanda in MEREDITH Kercher's room, but there was plenty scattered about mixed together with the victim's in other parts of the house. Hmmm Ted?

And funny how Sollecito, who was NOT an outsider, and whose family DID know a lot of powerful people, was convicted too.

Whatalotof nonsense. Is it a slow news week in the US at the moment that they have to fill all the air time with muppets like this? Isn't there, like, a war on somewhere?

Sheeeeesh...I've heard it all now. If Italy is ashamed enough indeed. You couldn't make it up!

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Offline Geologist


Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:31 pm

Posts: 83

Location: Leeds and Toronto

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:46 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

With regards to the sentences, does anyone feel that the heavier sentence for Guede reflects the chance he may re-offend again.

Real justice IMHO would be seeing a rehabilitated Knox and Sollecito in 20 years, sorry and repentant for what thay have done. Perhaps in their own ways able to contribute to society again. Knox and Sollecito will still be young enough to have families (something Kercher will never get the chance to experience). Maybe then they might realize how precious life is.
Punishing someone for life - especially when so young is in many ways counterproductive - Red from the Shawshank Redemption.

Guede on the other hand I'm not so sure about, he strikes me as someone who would return to crime once he is out. He may be the more repentant of the three at the moment, but in the long term I think the one who would least understand the significance of what he did.
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Offline Ronald_L


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:46 am

Posts: 5

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:50 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

I am curious to know what physical evidence was found in Meredith's room that implicates Amanda Knox. If anyone knows, please post.

Thank you.

Ronald
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:00 am   Post subject: Re: Cantwell Gets Clock Cleaned   

Ferret wrote:
Fly by Night wrote:
Senator Marie Cantwell is skating on very thin ice:

State Dept. Says Amanda Knox Got Fair Trial



There is a reason that Senator Cantwell is doing this than Senator Murray. Cantwell can do this without much reprecussion when she comes up for re-election in 2012, or she will have some sort of plausible denialbility Senator Patty Murray, who is in the Senate Democratic Party Leadership and is much more powerful than Senator Cantwell isn't going make waves before the 2010 campaign.

I really don't see Senator Cantwell pushing this strongly, compare to going all out to make sure Boeing gets the US Air Force refuelling aircraft contract, and firebombing South Carolina for getting some of the 787 production line. She may be doing this more of a favor to David Marriott.


Great...maybe then we should send an open letter to Senator Patty Murray and ask them for 'their' opinion on the fairness of the trial...'Do you agree with Senator Cantwell in this matter Senator Murray? Do you share her concerns? Please give us a statement' :)

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Offline Yummi


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Location: Bunga-Bunga Republic

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:01 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Quote:
Sheeeeesh...I've heard it all now. If Italy is ashamed enough indeed. You couldn't make it up!


Miss Bachrach has worked in Italy for four years. In Milan, for the fashion luxury & buisness... I think polishing the golden pavement in a toilet in a Mafia-Berlusconi-owned firma ...
... she is obviously not ashamed enough.
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:01 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Ronald_L wrote:
I am curious to know what physical evidence was found in Meredith's room that implicates Amanda Knox. If anyone knows, please post.

Thank you.

Ronald


Hi Ronald,

1. The double DNA Knife not only places Amanda Knox in Meredith's room, but also indicates that she inflicted the fatal wound

2. The woman's bloody shoeprint on the pillow under Meredith's body matched Amanda Knox's foot size, but was incompatible with Meredith's foot size. This debunks the myth that Rudy Guede acted alone and clearly places Amanda Knox inside Meredith's room when Meredith was killed.

3. Raffaele Sollecito's forensic expert, Professor Vinci, claimed that he had found Knox's DNA on Meredith's bra. This seems to prove she also handled Meredith's bra.

Apparently, Vincenzo Pascali, Sollecito's chief forensic consultant, also found Knox's DNA on Meredith's bra

4.Amanda Knox's reading lamp was found in Meredith's room. This is further evidence that Amanda Knox was in Meredith's room on the night of the murder.

5. Amanda Knox's footprints were set in Meredith's blood in different parts of the cottage, which clearly indicates that she had stepped in Meredith's blood in the Meredith's room and then tracked the blood around the house.

6. Amanda Knox's DNA was mixed with Meredith's blood in the bathroom, which clearly indicates that her hands had come into with Meredith's blood in Meredith's room and then touched different fittings and the box of Q Tips cotton swabs in the bathroom.

Why did Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito both give multiple conflicting alibis and lie repeatedly?

I'll give you a clue:

"Everything I have said in regards to my involvement in Meredith’s death, even though it is contrasting, are the best truth that I have been able to think."

It shouldn't be too difficult for you to work out the answer.
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Offline The Bard


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Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:02 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Ronald_L wrote:
I am curious to know what physical evidence was found in Meredith's room that implicates Amanda Knox. If anyone knows, please post.

Thank you.

Ronald


Ronald, if you scroll up four posts you can read The Machine's answer to this question amongst others...

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Offline Kermit


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:03 am   Post subject: OPEN YOUR HORIZONS A LITTLE ...   

Ronald_L wrote:
I am curious to know what physical evidence was found in Meredith's room that implicates Amanda Knox. If anyone knows, please post.

Thank you.

Ronald

Please read The Machine's post above at:
viewtopic.php?p=25824#p25824

FOA / The Entourage have made an extensive effort to limit discussion of forensic evidence to Meredith's room (in spite of the fact that Anne Bremner constantly refers to images of police breaking down a door on the floor below the girls' flat as evidence of contamination of the bra clasp found under a pillow, which was in turn under the victim ... yeah, I know, Bremner's logic is weird, or she can't remember the talking points that Charlie passes her).

Don't be sucked in. The Knox / Meredith DNA / blood mixes were found at different locations in the bathroom, hallway, and Filomena's room which can't be explained by the "girls living together" excuse. The bathmat footprint is clearly not Rudy's (FOA had to shrink it to make it fit) yet is compatible with Raffaele's, and if in addition Raffaele's DNA was found in abundant quantities on the bra clasp (under the pillow, under the victiim), and Amanda insists that she was with Raffaele all night .... I think you understand.

Amanda's lamp, along with another lamp, was on the floor of Meredith's room.

The Sollecito experts state that Amanda's DNA was on the bra ...

Well, I'm starting to repeat what others have already listed. Don't forget the Luminol prints.

Meredith was attacked in her house. The partial clean up and staging occurred in her house, not just her room. Help us not allow FOA to artificially limit discussion of the evidence.

Thanks.


Last edited by Kermit on Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Ronald_L


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:06 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

In reply to The Machine,

I understand that all the things that you list go towards her guilt, rather than innocence.

However, I was aking for physical evidence in Meredith's room. None of your items are this.

I find it difficult to fathom that someone could perpetrate such a brutal crime and leave no physical evidence behind whatsoever.

If anyone else knows of physical evidence putting Amanda in Meredith's room, please reply.

thank you

Ronald
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:07 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

capealadin wrote:
Yeah, but Michael, How did they skirt around the DNA? I mean, Amanda's DNA was still in the bathroom. HOW did they leave no trace of themselves, but leave so much of Rudi's there. I know that AK and RS are guilty but I just can't understand that evidence. Had there been no evidence of all three, it would be much more understandable to me. Or am I a donkey, and I just don't get it?


I'm saying they didn't 'skirt around' the DNA...what they left was found by the forensics (so they 'did' leave traces of themselves) and they didn't leave DNA anywhere else. This is down to the fact that they interacted with the crime scene differently to the way Guede did.

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Offline The Bard


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:07 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Ronald_L wrote:
In reply to The Machine,

I understand that all the things that you list go towards her guilt, rather than innocence.

However, I was aking for physical evidence in Meredith's room. None of your items are this.

I find it difficult to fathom that someone could perpetrate such a brutal crime and leave no physical evidence behind whatsoever.

If anyone else knows of physical evidence putting Amanda in Meredith's room, please reply.

thank you

Ronald


Um...the murder weapon?

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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:10 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Ronald_L wrote:
In reply to The Machine,

I understand that all the things that you list go towards her guilt, rather than innocence.

However, I was aking for physical evidence in Meredith's room. None of your items are this.

I find it difficult to fathom that someone could perpetrate such a brutal crime and leave no physical evidence behind whatsoever.

If anyone else knows of physical evidence putting Amanda in Meredith's room, please reply.

thank you

Ronald


All the evidence I mentioned places Amanda Knox in Meredith's room.

You forgot to answer my question:

Why did Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito both give multiple conflicting alibis and lie repeatedly?


Last edited by The Machine on Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Kermit


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:10 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Ronald_L wrote:
In reply to The Machine,

I understand that all the things that you list go towards her guilt, rather than innocence.

However, I was aking for physical evidence in Meredith's room. None of your items are this.

I find it difficult to fathom that someone could perpetrate such a brutal crime and leave no physical evidence behind whatsoever.

If anyone else knows of physical evidence putting Amanda in Meredith's room, please reply.

thank you

Ronald

Why do you want to limit discussion of evidence to Meredith's room?
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:13 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Peter Popham has written another terrible article about the case:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 36076.html

Readers can leave comments.
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Offline The Bard


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:14 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

"Second day of evidence from Knox

Knox said she considered Kercher a friend. Had she suffered for the death of her friend, Maresca asked? “Yes, I was very shocked.” Did she remember Kercher in her daily life? “Yes I remember her; but, in the end I knew her for a month, and first of all I’m trying to get on with my life.”

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Offline Ronald_L


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:18 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Reply to The Kermit,

I am not "sucked in" by FOA.

I might go so far as to say that think that the FOA are MORANS.

But the fact that they are morans does not mean Amanda is guilty.

As I said before, I find it difficult to believe that someone brutally kills Meredith and leaves no physical evidence in the room. A hair, a flake of skin, something ....

Don't get sucked in. Tell me what is the evidence ....
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Offline The Bard


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:21 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Sigh...

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:22 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Editorials / Opinion
Doubts in the Amanda Knox case warrant impartial review
Seattle exchange student Amanda Knox will remain behind bars in Italy until her case comes up on appeal. The U.S. government should join the European Union in insisting on a more equitable trial.

SEATTLE TIMES


(well thanks for letting us know where you stand Seattle Times, as if we didn't know anyway)

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Offline Geologist


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:26 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Ronald_L wrote:
Reply to The Kermit,

I am not "sucked in" by FOA.

I might go so far as to say that think that the FOA are MORANS.

But the fact that they are morans does not mean Amanda is guilty.

As I said before, I find it difficult to believe that someone brutally kills Meredith and leaves no physical evidence in the room. A hair, a flake of skin, something ....

Don't get sucked in. Tell me what is the evidence ....


There is stil additional evidence that has not been heard yet from the Autopsy, this part of the trial was conducted behind closed doors.

Therefore the full picture of what happened in the room is still not complete.

I would wait till the report is published before any full conclusions can be made.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:27 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Ronald_L wrote:
Reply to The Kermit,

I am not "sucked in" by FOA.

I might go so far as to say that think that the FOA are MORANS.

But the fact that they are morans does not mean Amanda is guilty.

As I said before, I find it difficult to believe that someone brutally kills Meredith and leaves no physical evidence in the room. A hair, a flake of skin, something ....

Don't get sucked in. Tell me what is the evidence ....


There probably was a hair or skin flake from Amanda in the room. But what if there was? Unless it could be specifically connected to the crime then it wouldn't be admitted as evidence.

But, let's for argument's sake take your assertion as true...what if you're right and there wasn't a single skin flake, hair or anything else of Amanda in Meredith's room....don't you think that would be rather strange since she lived in the house? And if that was the case, wouldn't that put even more weight on other evidence, for example, Amanda's DNA being found mixed with Meredith's blood in Filomena's room?

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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:28 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Thank you, Michael. I completely forgot that they did leave some of their dna in Meredith's room. I didn't know that Amanda's dna was also on the bra clasp. And I didn't know that they had proved that it was Amanda's shoe print. Should have done my homework. Still, I still wish they had gotten stiffer sentences. Such a small price to pay for so much suffering. I would not have behaved as well as Meridith's family, that's for sure.

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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:29 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Ronald_L wrote:
Reply to The Kermit,

I am not "sucked in" by FOA.

I might go so far as to say that think that the FOA are MORANS.

But the fact that they are morans does not mean Amanda is guilty.

As I said before, I find it difficult to believe that someone brutally kills Meredith and leaves no physical evidence in the room. A hair, a flake of skin, something ....

Don't get sucked in. Tell me what is the evidence ....


Hi Ronald,

There is an overview of the prosecution's case on the True Justice For Meredith Kercher website:

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/C360/P0/

You still haven't answered my question:

Why did Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito both give multiple conflicting alibis and lie repeatedly?
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Offline The 411


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:31 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Geologist wrote:
With regards to the sentences, does anyone feel that the heavier sentence for Guede reflects the chance he may re-offend again.

Real justice IMHO would be seeing a rehabilitated Knox and Sollecito in 20 years, sorry and repentant for what thay have done. Perhaps in their own ways able to contribute to society again. Knox and Sollecito will still be young enough to have families (something Kercher will never get the chance to experience). Maybe then they might realize how precious life is.
Punishing someone for life - especially when so young is in many ways counterproductive - Red from the Shawshank Redemption.

Guede on the other hand I'm not so sure about, he strikes me as someone who would return to crime once he is out. He may be the more repentant of the three at the moment, but in the long term I think the one who would least understand the significance of what he did.


What evidence do you have to support your thesis that he may be the one most likely to re-offend?
Just curious, is yours a gut feeling or something else?

You ARE entitled to have a gut feeling, by the way.

I guess I really don't understand how you think Rudy "LEAST understands the significance of what he did." What are you basing THAT on?

Least understanding because of...
Intelligence? Education? Integrity? Or something else?

Have you read the writings of all three accused? What kind of opinion have you formed of their "understanding" based on their writings and statements?
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Offline Ferret


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:33 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Michael wrote:
Editorials / Opinion
Doubts in the Amanda Knox case warrant impartial review
Seattle exchange student Amanda Knox will remain behind bars in Italy until her case comes up on appeal. The U.S. government should join the European Union in insisting on a more equitable trial.

SEATTLE TIMES


(well thanks for letting us know where you stand Seattle Times, as if we didn't know anyway)


Joni Balter is a Seattle Times Editorial Writer, who surprise! surprise! is the wife of Tim Egan..

This is more about FOA PR team than the case and trial, and who they can influence..


Last edited by Ferret on Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:37 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Ferret wrote:
Michael wrote:
Editorials / Opinion
Doubts in the Amanda Knox case warrant impartial review
Seattle exchange student Amanda Knox will remain behind bars in Italy until her case comes up on appeal. The U.S. government should join the European Union in insisting on a more equitable trial.

SEATTLE TIMES


(well thanks for letting us know where you stand Seattle Times, as if we didn't know anyway)


Joni Balter is a Seattle Times Editorial Writer, who surprise! surprise! is the wife of Tim Egan..

This is more about FOA PR team then the trial, and who they can influence..



Thanks for that nugget of info Ferret, that explains everything :)

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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:38 am   Post subject: Re: Cantwell Gets Clock Cleaned   

Fly by Night wrote:
Senator Marie Cantwell is skating on very thin ice:

State Dept. Says Amanda Knox Got Fair Trial


From skimming the oh so very sad descriptions of how the family of a murderer feels when the verdict is read in court, one almost gets the impression that this is the first family in history to every hear a guilty verdict against a family member. They felt sick, they were sad, they were in shock, they cried ... and ... so what. What did they expect? Did they really expect a not guilty verdict because they doubted the DNA evidence?

Let's skip back in time to about 20 years ago, before DNA evidence was a court tool. Let look at the circumstantial evidence minus the DNA evidence. This is still a guilty case. It almost seems like the family excluded all the evidence except for the DNA, and then decided DNA evidence wasn't reliable, so Amanda would be found not guilty. Regardless, their reactions are nothing new, nothing different from anyone else that hears a guilty verdict. I don't know why it's news.
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:38 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Ferret wrote:
Joni Balter is a Seattle Times Editorial Writer, who surprise! surprise! is the wife of Tim Egan..

This is more about FOA PR team then the trial, and who they can influence..


Hi Ferret,

Thanks for that information. There is connection with all of them. For example, Anne Bremner knows John Q Kelly.
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Offline stint7


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:40 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Another BIG Sigh.....

Congressman Barney Frank while trying to repeatedly explain the same points over and over at the turbulent Town Hall meetings recently said something that seems to be very applicable to a few of our recent arrivals to this board.

"Trying to have a logical reasonable discussion with people like you is like trying to have a conversation with a dining room table.

No disrespect intended from me toward anyone, and kudos to those of you who so patiently keep conversing with "the tables".
(Even when they unashamedly admit they want immediate answers, and are not interested in doing any research on their own)
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Offline Kermit


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:41 am   Post subject: KEEP TALKING .... WHOAAAA ... KEEP TALKING !!!   

Ronald_L wrote:
Reply to The Kermit,

I am not "sucked in" by FOA.

I might go so far as to say that think that the FOA are MORANS.

But the fact that they are morans does not mean Amanda is guilty.

As I said before, I find it difficult to believe that someone brutally kills Meredith and leaves no physical evidence in the room. A hair, a flake of skin, something ....

Don't get sucked in. Tell me what is the evidence ....

You haven't replied to my question:
Why do you want to limit discussion of evidence to Meredith's room?
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Offline Ronald_L


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:46 am

Posts: 5

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:42 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

The Machine wrote:
Ronald_L wrote:

You still haven't answered my question:

Why did Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito both give multiple conflicting alibis and lie repeatedly?



I do not know about Raffaele's alibis, so can't comment.

But Amanda's alibis (and behavior) are very bad for her. Especially in Italy. It is a difficult case, in my opinion. I really don't see how you kill someone face to face, even three against one, and leave no physical evidence. Hard to fathom. But Amanda's behavior is very implicating. The guy seems guilty to me too. He doesn't engender sympathy...

The people that bother me are the ones who KNOW she is innocent (how they know this, I can't understand), and the ones who KNOW she is guilty (again, hard to fathom).

I await the Autopsy evidence.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:43 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Earthling wrote:
Michael wrote:
Amanda Knox's Mom Tells Her to Have 'Courage'
Knox Family Realized the Verdict Was Guilty When Amanda Began to Cry
By NIKKI BATTISTE and JON MEYERSOHN
PERUGIA, Italy Dec. 9, 2009

ABC NEWS

What, are these parents dim-wits? (sorry) But I mean, look up the Italian word for "guilty" on the internet BEFORE you head on over from the hotel to the reading of your daughter's verdict in a murder trial! (I just did, it's "colpevole," it even sounds like a similar English word, "culpable.") I'm sorry, but did they look up only the word for "innocent" (that's easy, "innocenti") because they were so sure she'd be acquitted??! Wow.


Exactly ... at what point are they going to take some responsibility for knowing what happened in court. I have wondered what they were doing in the courtroom over the last year ... daydreaming for hours? That's just plain weird, in my opinion.
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:47 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Ronald_L wrote:
The Machine wrote:
Ronald_L wrote:

You still haven't answered my question:

Why did Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito both give multiple conflicting alibis and lie repeatedly?



I do not know about Raffaele's alibis, so can't comment.

But Amanda's alibis (and behavior) are very bad for her. Especially in Italy. It is a difficult case, in my opinion. I really don't see how you kill someone face to face, even three against one, and leave no physical evidence. Hard to fathom. But Amanda's behavior is very implicating. The guy seems guilty to me too. He doesn't engender sympathy...

The people that bother me are the ones who KNOW she is innocent (how they know this, I can't understand), and the ones who KNOW she is guilty (again, hard to fathom).

I await the Autopsy evidence.


Hi Ronald,

Barbie Nadeau wrote:

"Countless forensic experts, including those who performed the autopsies on Kercher's body, have testified that more than one person killed her based on the size and location of her injuries and the fact that she didn't fight back—no hair or skin was found under her fingernails." (Barbie Nadeau, Newsweek).
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Offline Geologist


Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:31 pm

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Location: Leeds and Toronto

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:47 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

The 411 wrote:
Geologist wrote:
With regards to the sentences, does anyone feel that the heavier sentence for Guede reflects the chance he may re-offend again.

Real justice IMHO would be seeing a rehabilitated Knox and Sollecito in 20 years, sorry and repentant for what thay have done. Perhaps in their own ways able to contribute to society again. Knox and Sollecito will still be young enough to have families (something Kercher will never get the chance to experience). Maybe then they might realize how precious life is.
Punishing someone for life - especially when so young is in many ways counterproductive - Red from the Shawshank Redemption.

Guede on the other hand I'm not so sure about, he strikes me as someone who would return to crime once he is out. He may be the more repentant of the three at the moment, but in the long term I think the one who would least understand the significance of what he did.


What evidence do you have to support your thesis that he may be the one most likely to re-offend?
Just curious, is yours a gut feeling or something else?


You ARE entitled to have a gut feeling, by the way.

I guess I really don't understand how you think Rudy "LEAST understands the significance of what he did." What are you basing THAT on?

Least understanding because of...
Intelligence? Education? Integrity? Or something else?

Have you read the writings of all three accused? What kind of opinion have you formed of their "understanding" based on their writings and statements?



I guess it's just a gut feeling, he's already had a second chance to tell the truth at his appeal. A year in jail has not done much for his truth - telling abilities. At this stage I feel he has nothing to loose.

On the flip side though, I do get the feeling that he my be the one who will slowly leak out the truth - Amanda's too cryptic. Rudy just gives small morsels at a time.

I guess ultimately this is a very complicated case and I'm tossing out ideas.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:47 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Ronald_L wrote:
The Machine wrote:
Ronald_L wrote:

You still haven't answered my question:

Why did Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito both give multiple conflicting alibis and lie repeatedly?



I do not know about Raffaele's alibis, so can't comment.

But Amanda's alibis (and behavior) are very bad for her. Especially in Italy. It is a difficult case, in my opinion. I really don't see how you kill someone face to face, even three against one, and leave no physical evidence. Hard to fathom. But Amanda's behavior is very implicating. The guy seems guilty to me too. He doesn't engender sympathy...

The people that bother me are the ones who KNOW she is innocent (how they know this, I can't understand), and the ones who KNOW she is guilty (again, hard to fathom).

I await the Autopsy evidence.


Raffaele's? you can find them all here: RAFFAELE SOLLECITO'S OWN WORDS :)

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"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Yummi


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:51 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Popham:

"... the powerful influence of the US on Italian post-war politics – for decades actively preventing the Communists from entering government, for example – has left Italy with tortured and contradictory feelings towards the US, an unstable mixture of admiration and resentment. The vigorous campaign by US-based supporters of Ms Knox may have been counter-productive. "

I am learning now that I am tortured and contradictory because of the US.
What a fine theoretic anthropologist.
(my Region has a Communist government since 1948 . jtk)
"Painstaking" Popham, I'm admired... and it is typical of frustrated leftists to put people in jail randomly
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:03 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Ronald_L wrote:
I am curious to know what physical evidence was found in Meredith's room that implicates Amanda Knox. If anyone knows, please post.

Thank you.

Ronald


I don't know. Does it matter? If there was a hair from Amanda next to Meredith, would anyone conclude that Amanda was guilty, or would the obvious response be: "of course there was evidence of Amanda in Meredith's bedroom, they were roommates, it could have gotten there at any time". That is what would be said ... obviously.

The murder occurred in the house, and there is ample DNA evidence implicating all three murderers in the house. There is also enough circumstantial evidence to conclude that Amanda, Raffaele, and Rudy are guilty.

I have read some arguments where there is an attempt to reduce the murder scene to the corner in Meredith's bedroom. That is, the suggestion is that because there was no evidence presented in court placing Amanda in the bedroom, she must be innocent. I can't think of any investigation, even in the US, where a person is murdered in their house, and only the few square feet on either side of the body are considered to be the limits of the murder scene. Why would anyone want to reduce the scene of the murder to immediately near the body, and exclude the rest of the small cottage? Should we ignore the broken window and staged break-in because it was not in Meredith's bedroom? Should we ignore the evidence in the bathroom shared by Laura and Filomina because it was not in the bedroom? Similarly, should we ignore the mixed DNA in the bathroom shared by Amanda and Meredith because it was not in the bedroom?
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Offline The 411


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:04 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

"La Famiglia" (Curt and Edda) on "Larry King Live" right now.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:04 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Ronald_L wrote:
I am curious to know what physical evidence was found in Meredith's room that implicates Amanda Knox. If anyone knows, please post.

Thank you.

Ronald



Ronald,
I suggest you go to TJMK and read the extensive postings there. You can also look around on our site. I would say offhand that one piece of physical evidence was in Meredith's room but was removed; it is the knife with Knox's DNA on the handle and Meredith's in a groove near the tip. In addition, there is a woman's shoeprint that matches the size of Knox's foot. And remember, Knox says she was with Sollecito all night. An abundant amount of his DNA was found on a bra clasp. When Knox says she was with him all night, does that include the moment when this DNA was left? Moving beyond Meredith's small room, there is other physical evidence that has been patiently listed in response to questions like yours about a million times here. Why don't you take some time to read and get a feel for the purpose and ethos of the board before posting again.

I have left a number of posts since Friday night attempting to explain those two things to people who have come here to rail against a verdict that a majority of the people posting on this board feels is the right one, after a thorough investigation and a fair trial.

We agree with Arline Kercher, who said one has to go with the evidence. She was answering a question about whether or not the two suspects were rightly convicted for their involvement.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:08 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Yummi wrote:
Popham:

"... the powerful influence of the US on Italian post-war politics – for decades actively preventing the Communists from entering government, for example – has left Italy with tortured and contradictory feelings towards the US, an unstable mixture of admiration and resentment. The vigorous campaign by US-based supporters of Ms Knox may have been counter-productive. "

I am learning now that I am tortured and contradictory because of the US.
What a fine theoretic anthropologist.
(my Region has a Communist government since 1948 . jtk)
"Painstaking" Popham, I'm admired... and it is typical of frustrated leftists to put people in jail randomly


I didn't know that countries had feelings; I always thought it was people. But what do I know? I'm just a person. :)

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Offline The 411


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:08 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

On "Larry":
New news: Edda says AK has been moved from a cell with five women to another cell in which she is one of two inmates. AK's sole cellmate is Americana!


Last edited by The 411 on Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:09 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

The 411 wrote:
On "Larry":
New news: Edda says AK has been moved from a cell with five women to one in which she is one of two inmates, with another AMERICAN prisoner.


Geez! What did this one do?

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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:11 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
The 411 wrote:
On "Larry":
New news: Edda says AK has been moved from a cell with five women to one in which she is one of two inmates, with another AMERICAN prisoner.


Geez! What did this one do?


She too is innocent ... it's just more anti-Americanism.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:12 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Jester wrote:
Earthling wrote:
Michael wrote:
Amanda Knox's Mom Tells Her to Have 'Courage'
Knox Family Realized the Verdict Was Guilty When Amanda Began to Cry
By NIKKI BATTISTE and JON MEYERSOHN
PERUGIA, Italy Dec. 9, 2009

ABC NEWS

What, are these parents dim-wits? (sorry) But I mean, look up the Italian word for "guilty" on the internet BEFORE you head on over from the hotel to the reading of your daughter's verdict in a murder trial! (I just did, it's "colpevole," it even sounds like a similar English word, "culpable.") I'm sorry, but did they look up only the word for "innocent" (that's easy, "innocenti") because they were so sure she'd be acquitted??! Wow.


Exactly ... at what point are they going to take some responsibility for knowing what happened in court. I have wondered what they were doing in the courtroom over the last year ... daydreaming for hours? That's just plain weird, in my opinion.


Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought Judge Massei's formulation was such that the word in Italian for "condemn" was spoken. He seemed to say the name and then the word indicating that the verdict was a conviction.

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Offline Ronald_L


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:12 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Michael wrote:
Raffaele's? you can find them all here: RAFFAELE SOLLECITO'S OWN WORDS :)


He is stating that Amanda told him that the bathroom had blood in it ... right ?
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Offline Geologist


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:12 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
The 411 wrote:
On "Larry":
New news: Edda says AK has been moved from a cell with five women to one in which she is one of two inmates, with another AMERICAN prisoner.


Geez! What did this one do?


It's probably for punishment, Amanda will sing to her!
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Offline Yummi


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:17 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

I don't know about this newspaper (Christian...?) but I just see this article

http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/1207/p06s22-woeu.html
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:21 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

The US State Dept does not see irregularities in the trial:

http://www.repubblica.it/2009/06/sezioni/cronaca/meredith-processo-2/frattini-dopo-clinton/frattini-dopo-clinton.html
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:27 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Yummi wrote:
I don't know about this newspaper (Christian...?) but I just see this article

http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/1207/p06s22-woeu.html


Here's what it says about its own philosophy:

Quote:
The Christian Science church doesn't publish news to propagate denominational doctrine; it provides news purely as a public service. Here's why: If the basic theology of that church says that what reaches and affects thought shapes experience, it follows that a newspaper would have significant impact on the lives of those who read it.

News with the motive "to injure no man, but to bless all mankind" cannot but help improve society and individual lives. The idea is that the unblemished truth is freeing (as a fundamental human right); with it, citizens can make informed decisions and take intelligent action, for themselves and for society.


Despite the strange name (the combination of Christian and science strikes some as odd), the CSM is a progressive publication that is considered to be objective and professional. It has nothing to do with right-wing fundamentalism in the US.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:30 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   



This is not a surprising outcome in my opinion. The previous administration was also solicited for help. It had a look and decided to stay away.

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Offline The 411


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:30 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Edda tells Larry that AK could NOT have committed the crime. Per Edda's rendition, computer records show she & RS were at his house until 9:30 PM, and MK killed at 9:45. Hence, only 15 minute window to kill-impossible.

Also claimed Rudy's DNA found all over the room and *IN* Meredith's handbag...
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Offline MarinaNYC


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:31 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Geologist wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
The 411 wrote:
On "Larry":
New news: Edda says AK has been moved from a cell with five women to one in which she is one of two inmates, with another AMERICAN prisoner.


Geez! What did this one do?


It's probably for punishment, Amanda will sing to her!


Perhaps it is part of the "medieval" Italian justice system. They are trying to elicit a confession from the other American...."Confess, or you shall be Amanda Knox's roommate...you heard what happened to her last roommate, haven't you."
(Followed my a roll of the mustache and a maniacal laugh)
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:35 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Sounds like LK broke the news to them that the US gov't is not going to get involved ... that there don't appear to be any irregularities.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:35 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

The 411 wrote:
Edda tells Larry that AK could NOT have committed the crime. Per Edda's rendition, computer records show she & RS were at his house until 9:30 PM, and MK killed at 9:45. Hence, only 15 minute window to kill-impossible.

Also claimed Rudy's DNA found all over the room and *IN* Meredith's handbag...


It is unfair to require that Edda master any of the details of the case file or anything that was presented in court. For some reason, the whole damn thing was in Italian, even the verdict. Plus, in a move clearly intended to intimidate the family, the jurors wore Italian flags draped over their upper bodies.

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Offline stilicho


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:37 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Greetings All:

I spend a bit of time on the JREF site, a forum dedicated to scepticism and other topics such as the paranormal, religion, conspiracies, and the role of scientific inquiry in society.

The subject of this trial (and especially the verdict) has perhaps unsurprisingly garnered a lot of interest at that site.

I have done my best to read up on this issue, especially the links and interpretations available here. I have read about 24 hours worth of material and scarcely dented your site. I have a couple of ideas as no doubt the administrators have noticed a sharp spike in traffic since the verdict.

(1) Is there anyone available to provide expertise in the translations of Italian documentation? I am especially thinking of Catnip or someone similar.

(2) Is there a catalogue or summary where (especially) the distinctions between the Marriott/Knox/Mellas account and what the defence teams actually used in court may be found?

I would dearly love to see someone such as The Machine, Catnip, Michael, or nicki (sorry if I missed anyone) to participate in the JREF thread where the sceptics are at one anothers' throats over what happened in Perugia in NOV 2007. Here is the link to the thread there, although there is already one split-off that I have not included:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php? ... ost5387934
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Offline Yummi


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:38 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

From Apcom news agengy:

Washington, 7 dic. (Apcom) - Non vi è ragione di pensare che la condanna della studentessa americana Amanda Knox per omicidio in Italia sia segnata da irregolarità: lo ha detto oggi Ian Kelly, portavoce del Dipartimento di Stato americano. Alla domanda se la giovane aveva subito un processo equo, Kelly ha risposto di non avere "alcuna indicazione contraria". "Non abbiamo alcuna indicazione che la legge italiana non sia stata rispettata", ha insistito in seguito, sottolineando per contro che Amanda Knox aveva diritto a fare ricorso per la sua condanna a 26 anni di prigione per l'omicidio della sua coinquilina britannica a Perugia. Ian Kelly ha riferito inoltre che il Segretario di Stato Hillary Clinton riceverà a breve la senatrice americana Maria Cantwell, che ha criticato la condanna di Amanda Knox nel caso Meredith sostenendo che la sentenza potrebbe esser stata condizionata da "sentimenti anti americani" presenti in Italia. Kelly ha tuttavia definito "giusto, aperto e trasparente" il sistema giudiziario italiano. "Il governo italiano ha autorizzato il personale del nostro consolato ad assistere al processo", ha spiegato: "Ci ha permesso di visitare regolarmente Amanda Knox e noi continueremo ad avere questo ruolo di verifica e di sostegno". (con fonte Afp)


translation:

Washington, 7 dic. (Apcom) There is no reason to think that the sentencing of American student Amanda Knox for murder in Italy is affected by irregularities: it was said today by Ian Kelly, speaker of the American State Dept. On the question whether the young woman had an equitable trial, Kelly answered they had “no indication of the opposite”. “We have no indication that the Italian law was not respected” he insisted afterwards, while highlighting on the other hand that Amanda Knox had a right to appeal for her 26 year sentence. Ian Kelly told also that Secretary of State Hillary Clinton will soon receive M. of Senate Cantwell, who criticized Amanda’s sentencing in the Meredith case maintaining the verdict could have been affected by “anti-American bias” allegedly present in Italy. Kelly however defined the Italian justice system as “just, open and transparent”. “The Italian government has been allowing us to assist to the trial” he explained “they let us meet Amanda Knox regularly and we will go on in having this role of verifying and support”.


http://www.apcom.net/newscronaca/20091207_231201_446b70b_78000.html
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:42 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Edda: Amanda went to Perugia because she wanted to immerse herself in an ancient culture.

I didn't know ancient cultures were alive an well in Italy.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:44 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Curt just said that in the US one needs a motive to convict someone ... the poor guy ... he really needs to brush up on law before the time of the appeal.
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Offline DLW


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:51 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Peter Van Sant of CBS 48 hrs. was on the Bill O’Reilly Show on Fox news. Papa Bill said he booked him because he knows that Peter has been following this Amanda Knox case and respects his opinion. Bill was a little confused about how naïve this 20 yr old Amanda was, and seemed perplexed that she didn’t know anything about this murder considering her boyfriend was also arrested. Peter said he would stake his whole reputation that Amanda never left her boyfriends apartment that night. Pete also said he was very knowledgeable of this case and can answer any and all questions. He also put in a plug for the family, saying they are almost bankrupt and needed donations. Doesn’t know if political pressure will do any good, and seemed to downplay the anti- Americanism angle. Amanda’s problem’s all stem from Mignini, the runaway prosecutor who had Doug Preston shaking in his boots, and compares him to Bill Nifong in the Duke Lacrosse case.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:51 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Jester wrote:
Curt just said that in the US one needs a motive to convict someone ... the poor guy ... he really needs to brush up on law before the time of the appeal.



Jester, thanks for sparing me the pain of actually watching this show. For some reason, I have never been able to watch Larry King. He looks like a used car salesman.

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Offline martin


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:55 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

This was a comment i found linked to the 48 hours show:

This is exactly why I will NEVER leave this country! Clearly ALL other countries are full of uneducated morons and this just proves it. We have quite a few of our own, but not this bad.
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Offline The 411


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:56 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

More bits from Larry... (BTW, he's more prepared tonight!)

Larry brings up that despite Sen. Cantwell's intervention, State Dept. confirms all is kosher with trial, in accordance with Italian law. So, they've washed hands of this case. What do you think of THAT asks Larry?

Curt says: Well, uh, I don't know "specifically" then goes off subject

Larry returns to lack of support/interest by State Dept.
Curt says: I think If they look further, they'll eventually understand...

Edda states that UNDER ITALIAN LAW, AK's RIGHTS WERE REPEATEDLY VIOLATED!!! (no examples given..)

Curt says Defense's belief is that Rudy, who has a history of "breaking and entering with a rock to a 2nd floor buildings" went to steal rent money!!!!!!!!! (Edda smiles, knowingly--it's just so obvious) Then, presumably Rudy assaulted Meredith sexually, and murdered her.

Larry continues asking about them getting help from US Embassy. Edda says, uh...well, I'm going there again tomorrow and Y'know, they're going to keep an eye on the case...

Now defense attorney Mark Geragos (defended Scott Peterson) and JOHN Q. KELLY on...so I've turned off the volume!!!
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Offline martin


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:01 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Despite the strange name (the combination of Christian and science strikes some as odd), the CSM is a progressive publication that is considered to be objective and professional. It has nothing to do with right-wing fundamentalism in the US.

isn't the CSM based in Salt Lake City?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:02 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

DLW wrote:
Peter Van Sant of CBS 48 hrs. was on the Bill O’Reilly Show on Fox news. Papa Bill said he booked him because he knows that Peter has been following this Amanda Knox case and respects his opinion. Bill was a little confused about how naïve this 20 yr old Amanda was, and seemed perplexed that she didn’t know anything about this murder considering her boyfriend was also arrested. Peter said he would stake his whole reputation that Amanda never left her boyfriends apartment that night. Pete also said he was very knowledgeable of this case and can answer any and all questions. He also put in a plug for the family, saying they are almost bankrupt and needed donations. Doesn’t know if political pressure will do any good, and seemed to downplay the anti- Americanism angle. Amanda’s problem’s all stem from Mignini, the runaway prosecutor who had Doug Preston shaking in his boots, and compares him to Bill Nifong in the Duke Lacrosse case.


I don't think Van Sant has much of a reputation to defend anyway. He has forayed into the book business, however, and may be lining up to write a story. He did write one called Perfectly Executed, or some such, about a case or two he covered for 48 Hours. He co-wrote the book. There are 17 reader reviews on Amazon. This is the one that was found to be most helpful, by 14 of 16:

Quote:
This book needed a good editor. It is rambling and too long by half. The Peter van Sant interpolations slow the story and add little or nothing to it.

The book is also riddled with errors. Here are just two of the more obvious:

Page 108: "Leopold and Loeb were found guilty and executed."
>>>>Neither was executed. In a defense famous in the history of American criminal justice, the great lawyer Clarence Darrow succeeded in getting both men's lives spared: they were sentenced to life in prison. Nathan Loeb was murdered by a fellow convict in prison; Richard Leopold was paroled after 33 years, moved to Puerto Rico, married, and died of a heart attack at age 66.

Page 110: ack in 1994 . . . David Koresh was running the [Branch Dravidian] cult in Waco, Texas."
>>>>David Koresh died in 1993.

[b]One wishes a competent author, like Ann Rule, had told this story.


So you see, Pete has nowhere to go but up.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:03 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

martin wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Despite the strange name (the combination of Christian and science strikes some as odd), the CSM is a progressive publication that is considered to be objective and professional. It has nothing to do with right-wing fundamentalism in the US.

isn't the CSM based in Salt Lake City?


I think you are confusing it with the Mormons (Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints). They are totally unrelated.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:05 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

martin wrote:
This was a comment i found linked to the 48 hours show:

This is exactly why I will NEVER leave this country! Clearly ALL other countries are full of uneducated morons and this just proves it. We have quite a few of our own, but not this bad.


You never know. Maybe the poster lives in Canada and was referring to the morons at CBS who are responsible for this crap.

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Offline disinterested


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:07 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

DriveByDoc wrote:
Another article:

"Think of Meredith Kercher not Bambi-eyed killer Amanda Knox"

[urlx=http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/12/08/think-of-meredith-kercher-not-bambi-eyed-killer-amanda-knox-115875-21880718]Mirror.co.uk[/urlx]


Be sure not to miss the great photos of Mez alongside this article (which I hadn't seen before):

photos
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Offline martin


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:07 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
martin wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Despite the strange name (the combination of Christian and science strikes some as odd), the CSM is a progressive publication that is considered to be objective and professional. It has nothing to do with right-wing fundamentalism in the US.

isn't the CSM based in Salt Lake City?


I think you are confusing it with the Mormons (Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints). They are totally unrelated.


I know what and where the mormons are (Utha). I was asking you, because I once met
a mormon and he has been working with CSM.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:07 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

The 411 wrote:
More bits from Larry... (BTW, he's more prepared tonight!)

Larry brings up that despite Sen. Cantwell's intervention, State Dept. confirms all is kosher with trial, in accordance with Italian law. So, they've washed hands of this case. What do you think of THAT asks Larry?

Curt says: Well, uh, I don't know "specifically" then goes off subject
Larry returns to lack of support/interest by State Dept.
Curt says: I think If they look further, they'll eventually understand...

Edda states that UNDER ITALIAN LAW, AK's RIGHTS WERE REPEATEDLY VIOLATED!!! (no examples given..)

Curt says Defense's belief is that Rudy, who has a history of "breaking and entering with a rock to a 2nd floor buildings" went to steal rent money!!!!!!!!! (Edda smiles, knowingly--it's just so obvious) Then, presumably Rudy assaulted Meredith sexually, and murdered her.

Larry continues asking about them getting help from US Embassy. Edda says, uh...well, I'm going there again tomorrow and Y'know, they're going to keep an eye on the case...

Now defense attorney Mark Geragos (defended Scott Peterson) and JOHN Q. KELLY on...so I've turned off the volume!!!


I wonder if Biscotti will respond to Curt's little prevarication about Rudy. And I like the way he skirts questions. Maybe Larry will ask about the latest short story by Marie Pace, and we'll hear them say they don't remember what it was about.

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Offline martin


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:12 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
martin wrote:
This was a comment i found linked to the 48 hours show:

This is exactly why I will NEVER leave this country! Clearly ALL other countries are full of uneducated morons and this just proves it. We have quite a few of our own, but not this bad.


You never know. Maybe the poster lives in Canada and was referring to the morons at CBS who are responsible for this crap.


There were much more radical comments on this site
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:15 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

martin wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
martin wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Despite the strange name (the combination of Christian and science strikes some as odd), the CSM is a progressive publication that is considered to be objective and professional. It has nothing to do with right-wing fundamentalism in the US.

isn't the CSM based in Salt Lake City?


I think you are confusing it with the Mormons (Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints). They are totally unrelated.


I know what and where the mormons are (Utha). I was asking you, because I once met
a mormon and he has been working with CSM.


The CSM has its headquarters in Boston, Mass. There may be regional offices, since it is a global paper. I would imagine that people of all denominations work there, since it is not a denominational or religious paper. It was founded on the notion of providing unbiased information, in part because the founder of Christian Science (Mary Baker Eddy) was distressed at the distorted reporting about her church. Although a Mormon could work for the paper, it would surprise me because Mormons tend to be politically conservative and CSM is not.

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Offline Friend


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:48 am

Posts: 2

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:15 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Jools wrote:
Did Amanda Knox Do It? by Judy Bachrach
WoWoWow



After seeing Judy B on television I don't think I can read another word she writes. Vanity Fair is primarily an entertainment magazine, a kind of glossy, upscale people magazine. It is too bad Vanity Fair didn't put one of its good investigative reporters on the case. Judy B just wants to get a cover story and photo out of this, possibly a book. In her mind, the end justifies the means.


Who can count the most overstatments in that article?
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Offline martin


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:28 pm

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:16 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Despite the strange name (the combination of Christian and science strikes some as odd), the CSM is a progressive publication that is considered to be objective and professional. It has nothing to do with right-wing fundamentalism in the US.


I agree. Christian faith and science don't match, that's a contradiction.
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Offline martin


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:28 pm

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:19 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
martin wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
martin wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Despite the strange name (the combination of Christian and science strikes some as odd), the CSM is a progressive publication that is considered to be objective and professional. It has nothing to do with right-wing fundamentalism in the US.

isn't the CSM based in Salt Lake City?


I think you are confusing it with the Mormons (Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints). They are totally unrelated.


I know what and where the mormons are (Utha). I was asking you, because I once met
a mormon and he has been working with CSM.


The CSM has its headquarters in Boston, Mass. There may be regional offices, since it is a global paper. I would imagine that people of all denominations work there, since it is not a denominational or religious paper. It was founded on the notion of providing unbiased information, in part because the founder of Christian Science (Mary Baker Eddy) was distressed at the distorted reporting about her church. Although a Mormon could work for the paper, it would surprise me because Mormons tend to be politically conservative and CSM is not.


Can you find mormons also outside utah?
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Offline capealadin


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Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:58 am

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:20 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

is there ever going to be someone on the news circuit refuting this so called injustice? Why am I only hearing this one sided b......t! Surely, there has to be one show that wants to have a forum that explains why they were convicted. What is going on here!! There is no smoke wthout fire. Is this about ratings? Can this simply be that the news agencies are going with what they believe is a majority wanting to believe that one of their own is innocent? My belief in American open mindedness is shaken to the core.

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Offline Shirley


Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:48 pm

Posts: 376

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:29 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

There is never a complete picture to any crime, there is a just a constellation of details (evidence). These details are not viewed in isolation.

Apolgies for being graphic:

RS's DNA on the bra clasp: This was DNA on a bra clasp from a bra that had been worn by Meredith during the killing. DNA on a bra clasp from a bra that was removed from her body some time after death. DNA on a bra that was removed from her body after death, after her body had been moved: the crime scene altered to resemble a rape.

AK's DNA mixed with Meredith's DNA in Filomena's room: Not just any room, the room wherein a faked burglary had been attempted. These mixtures were not found in the kitchen, in Laura's room, in the bathoom used by Laura & Filomena, AK's room, the living room, etc. This was not Filomena's DNA mixed with Meredith's DNA, or Laura's DNA mixed with Meredith's DNA.

Context.


Last edited by Shirley on Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline max


Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:55 am

Posts: 1564

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:29 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

I just saw Anderson Cooper on CNN. It had Amanda's parents saying there was no evidence at all...blabla.. Some Lisa Bloom woman who didn't really say anything. A guy that said the US government has been following the case and there was nothing that they really could/would do. And there was Barbie Nadau explaining that there was actually some compelling evidence that the defense simply could not refute. Overall, I didn't feel the program showed any huge outcry of injustice and that it was reasonably relaxed about the case. Maybe the denial fase is turning into the acceptance fase?
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Offline Geologist


Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:31 pm

Posts: 83

Location: Leeds and Toronto

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:33 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

capealadin wrote:
is there ever going to be someone on the news circuit refuting this so called injustice? Why am I only hearing this one sided b......t! Surely, there has to be one show that wants to have a forum that explains why they were convicted. What is going on here!! There is no smoke wthout fire. Is this about ratings? Can this simply be that the news agencies are going with what they believe is a majority wanting to believe that one of their own is innocent? My belief in American open mindedness is shaken to the core.


The economy is still hurting, America is fighting 2 unpopular wars, is deeply divided politically and nothing is going to top Micheal Jackson dieing.

American's need a cosy feel-good story just in time for Christmas.

What better than the all American girl who bravely fought off the nasty Italian system and fled the country at great cost to her family. Stepping off the plane home waving a flag to be rushed to appear on Oprah, Good Morning America and Ellen and gush about how wonderful it is to be back on American soil, embracing the $$$'s flowing in for book deals and interviews + a documentary showing what a wonderful personality she is.

......,,,,,,
errrrrrrrrr hang on, that second part isn't right I must have been dreaming.

But that's what would have happened had she been found not guilty.

Now her family have crashed back into reality and it hurts. I guess anything goes now - plus donations!
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:42 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

I watched the show. Lisa Bloom (Gloria Allreds daughter) says that Amanda is innocent. The point is that nobody on any of these shows is pointing out the discrepencies . Michael or skep should be on one of these shows. THEN we'll see some squirming. I just want to see some accountability. Showing just one side is fundamentally flawed.

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Offline martin


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:28 pm

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:42 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Geologist wrote:
The economy is still hurting


Isn't the econom recovering? I read there has been a remarkable decrease in the jobless rate
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Offline mortytoad


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Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:38 pm

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Location: Seattle, Washington

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:43 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

thanks for posting the link to the Mirror story, drive by doc and disinterested! Those pictures are great! This was my favorite.
http://images.mirror.co.uk/upl/m4/dec2009/5/9/image-4-for-a-tribute-to-meredith-kercher-gallery-64722625.jpg


Last edited by mortytoad on Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:54 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:43 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

managgia!

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Offline Brogan


Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 2:41 am

Posts: 306

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:46 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

I've just got to go back to that quote from Candace, Italians regularly use bleach on their knives especially after slaughtering chickens in their kitchens. Yes that may be true in some rural idyll but Raff is a 20 something middle class student not a character from cavalleria Rusticana. Are we to believe that he would be more inclined to kill and dress his chicken rather than buy a ready to cook one from the local shop.

I actually feel sorry for those that had blindly swallowed the FOA propaganda and now find themselves disparately clutching at straws in order to justify their inability accept the fact that in spite of all the time and effort they have spent trying to supporting Amanda she has been found guilty, not because of some anti American conspiracy but because she did it.
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Offline Geologist


Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:31 pm

Posts: 83

Location: Leeds and Toronto

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:47 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

martin wrote:
Geologist wrote:
The economy is still hurting


Isn't the econom recovering? I read there has been a remarkable decrease in the jobless rate


it's recovering very slowly but will take a long time to recover to 2006/7 levels.

A lot of people are still hurting and median wages have decreased steadily for 2 years.
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Offline MarinaNYC


Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 7:23 pm

Posts: 16

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:49 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

martin wrote:

Can you find mormons also outside utah?


Yes, they live everywhere in the U.S. Most often in the West, but there is a huge concentration in Utah, something like 70%
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:50 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Geologist, that's really funny... and true. The Knoxes are asking for more donations. Yep, it's the gravy train. They've probably never had it so good. Gli mortacci sua!

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Offline Shirley


Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:48 pm

Posts: 376

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:51 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

disinterested wrote:
DriveByDoc wrote:
Another article:

"Think of Meredith Kercher not Bambi-eyed killer Amanda Knox"

[urlx=http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/12/08/think-of-meredith-kercher-not-bambi-eyed-killer-amanda-knox-115875-21880718]Mirror.co.uk[/urlx]


Be sure not to miss the great photos of Mez alongside this article (which I hadn't seen before):

photos


Thank you for the link.
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Offline malcolm


Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:26 am

Posts: 239

Location: Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:53 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

martin wrote:
Geologist wrote:
The economy is still hurting


Isn't the econom recovering? I read there has been a remarkable decrease in the jobless rate


No, what you in all probablility read was that there was a remarkable decrease in the rate of job loss. Unemployment is still rising, just not as fast as before.
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Offline Geologist


Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:31 pm

Posts: 83

Location: Leeds and Toronto

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:53 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

capealadin wrote:
I watched the show. Lisa Bloom (Gloria Allreds daughter) says that Amanda is innocent. The point is that nobody on any of these shows is pointing out the discrepencies . Michael or skep should be on one of these shows. THEN we'll see some squirming. I just want to see some accountability. Showing just one side is fundamentally flawed.



With a phone-in to one of these shows, do they pre-screen the call like they do written questions?
That would make it difficult IMHO, especially with the FOA's influence.

A debate on screen would be even worse - It'd be like a creationist or 9/11 conspiracy theorist.

You'd just be interrupted constantly and bombarded with questions that will take too long to answer.
The end result would be that very little would be addressed properly and the Pro Amanda side would go home claiming you never answered the questions.

I think it is an uphill task to get a major US show at the moment to remove any bias.

The best way is still in the Italian courts.
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:56 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Seeing Anne Bremner on TV... I think she did it !

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Offline Professor Snape


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Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:53 pm

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Location: Seattle. WA

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:58 am   Post subject: Today's Snapism   

Ronald_L wrote:
Reply to The Kermit,

I am not "sucked in" by FOA.

I might go so far as to say that think that the FOA are MORANS.

But the fact that they are morans does not mean Amanda is guilty.

As I said before, I find it difficult to believe that someone brutally kills Meredith and leaves no physical evidence in the room. A hair, a flake of skin, something ....

Don't get sucked in. Tell me what is the evidence ....

So unlike Amanda's contribution to the chores the cottage had a good cleaning that night, unfortunately for AK and RS they left small but good leads to their hot trail even after making sure there was ample evidence for their fall guy, RG. This has all been said many times over the last two years; what part of "guilty" do you not get??

Are you by chance a ringleader with a "tard" vocabulary or just a pen pals? "Moron" sounds awefully similar and familiar.

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Offline MarinaNYC


Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 7:23 pm

Posts: 16

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:01 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

capealadin wrote:
is there ever going to be someone on the news circuit refuting this so called injustice? Why am I only hearing this one sided b......t! Surely, there has to be one show that wants to have a forum that explains why they were convicted. What is going on here!! There is no smoke wthout fire. Is this about ratings? Can this simply be that the news agencies are going with what they believe is a majority wanting to believe that one of their own is innocent? My belief in American open mindedness is shaken to the core.


Sad, isn't it? There is no reporting on the case, as in an objective review of the facts. They haven't even bothered to read the jury statements where they clearly state that they were not swayed by the media, or the prosecution's theory of motive, but that the evidence was undeniable. Ironnically, the Italian court was merciful in light of the brutality of the crime. They wanted to give Amanda and Raffaele a chance at some life, though Meredith had completely lost hers. That's why these shrieks of anti-Americanism are preposterous.

Thank goodness that the State Department DID review the actual case before saying anything. Some tiny pin pricks of reason still exist.
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Offline capealadin


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Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:58 am

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:03 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Ronald, you remind me of the saying...:who are you gonna believe... Me or your lying eyes:

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Offline malcolm


Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:26 am

Posts: 239

Location: Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:04 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Ronald_L wrote:
It is a difficult case, in my opinion. I really don't see how you kill someone face to face, even three against one, and leave no physical evidence. Hard to fathom.

I await the Autopsy evidence.

The autopsy evidence has been available for many months - it was included in Micheli's report.
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:11 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Exactly, Marina.... I live in Los Angeles.. and am sticking with the BBC and Rai from now on. If I had a gun, I would be tempted to shoot my expensive TV. Having three grown sons, they never came close to infuriating me as much as those self serving idiots on TV. (smile)

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Offline Geologist


Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:31 pm

Posts: 83

Location: Leeds and Toronto

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:11 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

malcolm wrote:
Ronald_L wrote:
It is a difficult case, in my opinion. I really don't see how you kill someone face to face, even three against one, and leave no physical evidence. Hard to fathom.

I await the Autopsy evidence.

The autopsy evidence has been available for many months - it was included in Micheli's report.


I believe it was my mistake that this was brought up.

Is it the forensic evidence experts testimony that was held behind closed doors?
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Offline Tiziano


Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:06 am

Posts: 714

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:13 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -EMAIL IL CORRIERE della SERA   

CALLING ALL AUSTRALIANS BOARD MEMBERS: WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEND A REPLY TO THIS POSTING BY AN ITALIAN IN AUSTRALIA CRITICISING THE PERUGIA CASE ?
Edit for further explanation: I shall be responding to this famous and respected columnist for Corriere in Italian, putting forward the point of view of an Australian Italian joint citizen by virtue of marriage to an Italian husband resident in Australia since 1952, and questioning just which sources our "anon' has consulted to come to his opinions. I shall be revealing my identity and giving some details of my interest in and links with Italy and Italian cultural life in Australia. I am going to request some Australian posters who have in-depth knowledge of the case to deal with rebutting the lies about it by anon. I do not think that it worth getting involved in the in & outs of the Cucchi case: we need to focus on Perugia. I shall make a few dismissive comments about "veline" etc, as this is also not our focus.
If you would like to help make this a big Australian splash, please consider emailing Corriere, attention of Beppe Severgnini : he would welcome posts in English, and they would be expertly translated by the paper or put in the English section, depending on editorial decisions at C della S.
If you want to sound out ideas, Nicki has offered to help: please PM her or me if you want a sounding-board for your ideas.


Beppe Severgnini (Where to go to post)
If you need help posting on the Corriere board, or registering before you post, PM/or email Tiziano; I'd be happy to talk you through by phone from Tasmania - have Skype.
Corriere della Sera

Processo di Perugia: teorie di pura fantasia senza uno straccio di prova
Perugia Trial: theories without a shred of proof

Gentile dott. Severgnini,
vivo in Australia ormai da tre anni. Ho avuto così l'opportunità di guardare al nostro Paese dal di fuori e non ne ho una buona immagine.
I have been living in Australia for 3 years now. Thus I have had the opportunity to see our country from outside and I do not have a good image of it.[b]
Specialmente in materia di giustizia, l'Italia da qui pare come un Paese medievale dove la mentalità paesana per cui una bugia detta mille volte
[b]Especially as far as justice is concerned, from here Italy seems to be a medieval country, where the homespun mentality, in which a lie

diventa verità, ha ormai raggiunto i più alti livelli dello strato sociale. Dove «veline» e tuttociò che è immagine contano più della giustizia.
repeated a thousand times becomes the truth, has now reached the highest levels of the society. Where "TV dolly-girl hostesses"
Rimango scioccata da casi come quello Cucchi e il processo di Perugia ad Amanda Knox e Raffaele Sollecito. E nel caso di quest'ultimo
and appearances count more than justice. I am shocked by cases such as the Cucchi one and the Perugia trial of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito.
sono scioccata da come l'accusa possa sviluppare teorie di pura fantasia senza uno straccio di prova e cavarsela con così poco. Le scrivo per sapere la sua opinione in materia.
In the case of the latter I am shocked at how the prosecution can develop theories of pure fantasy without a shred of proof and get away with it with so little. I am writing to you to learn your opinion on the matter.
Preferirei che il mio nome non fosse menzionato nel caso la lettera fosse pubblicata. La ringrazio per l'attenzione.
I would prefer that my name should not be mentioned in the event that my letter should be published. Thank you for your attention.



Cordiali saluti.
Yours sincerely

Nome rimosso
Name removed

«Teorie di pura fantasia», «senza uno straccio di prova». Lei era in tribunale a Perugia e ha letto tutti gli atti, immagino. Come può altrimenti lanciarsi in queste affermazioni?
" Theories that are pure fantasy", "without a shred of truth". I imagine that you were in court in Perugia and you have read all the case documentation. Otherwise how can throw yourself into all these assertions?
In quanto all'anominato, l'accontento, ma non capisco. L'Italia ha i suoi problemi, ma è ancora un Paese dove si possono esprimere opinioni, senza subire conseguenze. Scrivere «preferirei che il mio nome non fosse menzionato nel caso la lettera fosse pubblicata» non fa una bella impressione,
As far as remaining anonymous, I will comply with your request, but I do not understand it. Italy is still a country where one can express opinions and not suffer any consequences.
mi creda, e indebolisce qualsiasi punto di vista.
To write "I should prefer that my name were not mentioned in the case that my letter should be published" does not create a good impression, believe me, and it weakens no matter what point of view.


Last edited by Tiziano on Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Ferret


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Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:21 am

Posts: 101

Location: Hidden Hills, CA

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:16 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

martin wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Despite the strange name (the combination of Christian and science strikes some as odd), the CSM is a progressive publication that is considered to be objective and professional. It has nothing to do with right-wing fundamentalism in the US.

isn't the CSM based in Salt Lake City?


No, that is the Church of Latter Day Saints, aka Mormons. The Christian Science Monitor is based in Boston. It was one of the best newspaper for reporting, especially its overseas reporting. However it has been hurting for years as all newspapers in the US. It tries to abide by Columbia University School of Journalism standards. They have been cutting back on the newspaper for years, until they only produce one edition a week, and do everything else on line. I used to read them much.

The news staff tried to keep the Christian Science and the paper separate, unlike the Washington Times, which is own by the Moonies, or Murdoch's rag sheets.
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Offline The 411


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Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:49 pm

Posts: 1386

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:18 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

martin wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
martin wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
martin wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Despite the strange name (the combination of Christian and science strikes some as odd), the CSM is a progressive publication that is considered to be objective and professional. It has nothing to do with right-wing fundamentalism in the US.

isn't the CSM based in Salt Lake City?


I think you are confusing it with the Mormons (Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints). They are totally unrelated.


I know what and where the mormons are (Utha). I was asking you, because I once met
a mormon and he has been working with CSM.


The CSM has its headquarters in Boston, Mass. There may be regional offices, since it is a global paper. I would imagine that people of all denominations work there, since it is not a denominational or religious paper. It was founded on the notion of providing unbiased information, in part because the founder of Christian Science (Mary Baker Eddy) was distressed at the distorted reporting about her church. Although a Mormon could work for the paper, it would surprise me because Mormons tend to be politically conservative and CSM is not.


Can you find mormons also outside utah?


Yes. As a matter of fact, the wife of the aforementioned Larry King, Shawn King, is a devout Mormon. The Kings live in California. Just to give you one example.

There are Mormons outside the U.S. as well, including Italy.
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Offline capealadin


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Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:58 am

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Highscores: 11

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:18 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Tiziano, I wonder if he (or she) got into Australia under Political Asylum?

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Offline jfk1191


Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:46 am

Posts: 286

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:20 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

capealadin wrote:
I completely forgot that they did leave some of their dna in Meredith's room. I didn't know that Amanda's dna was also on the bra clasp. And I didn't know that they had proved that it was Amanda's shoe print. Should have done my homework. Still, I still wish they had gotten stiffer sentences. Such a small price to pay for so much suffering. I would not have behaved as well as Meridith's family, that's for sure.


I think many people think the sentence is too soft, if they believe they were guilty.
Many would assume a death penalty for a crime like this.

The shoe print was found to be the edge of Rudys tennis shoe , per the defense. The defense said it was the edge of his shoe print as the pillow creased.
So its a matter of believing who you choose.

Imo, Its more logical, it was Rudys shoe print, as all the prints in that exact area were Rudys. There were numerous Rudy shoe prints in Merediths room and no one elses.

Rudy also admits to stumbling around in her blood, and admits to throwing away the tennis shoes while he was in Germany.
It was not needed to prove Rudy's prints, as there was an abundance of his shoe prints in the blood beside the body which were very clear matches. Great police work in tracking down the tennis shoe and finding Rudy to admit this.

For the Bra Clasp, I keep hearing there was multiple people's DNA on the clasp, including Amandas DNA on the bra clasp, or Lauras or Filomenas, or unknown people etc.....but not once was it mentioned in Micheli's report?
So I have tried to find documents of this, and there seems to be nothing to back-up this statement.

If Amandas DNA was on the bra clasp, don't you think it would have been mentioned in the trial? Wouldn't this be mentioned in the Judge Micheli Report?
Where is the "multiple people DNA" article? Wouldn't this be in the Headlines everywhere in bold print?

Obviously Raffaele's DNA was on it, and was presented in court throughout the trial. It was a main piece of evidence against him, if not "the main piece" against him.
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Offline Ferret


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Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:21 am

Posts: 101

Location: Hidden Hills, CA

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:26 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

martin wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
martin wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
martin wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Despite the strange name (the combination of Christian and science strikes some as odd), the CSM is a progressive publication that is considered to be objective and professional. It has nothing to do with right-wing fundamentalism in the US.

isn't the CSM based in Salt Lake City?


I think you are confusing it with the Mormons (Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints). They are totally unrelated.


I know what and where the mormons are (Utha). I was asking you, because I once met
a mormon and he has been working with CSM.


The CSM has its headquarters in Boston, Mass. There may be regional offices, since it is a global paper. I would imagine that people of all denominations work there, since it is not a denominational or religious paper. It was founded on the notion of providing unbiased information, in part because the founder of Christian Science (Mary Baker Eddy) was distressed at the distorted reporting about her church. Although a Mormon could work for the paper, it would surprise me because Mormons tend to be politically conservative and CSM is not.


Can you find mormons also outside utah?


Oh, let's see Idaho, Washington State, Oregon, Arizona, Nevada, and there is a bunch in California, (which helped with organizing and fund the Prop. 8 ballot initiative.

I always felt that architects from the Stalin Era were kidnapped from the LDS to build their temples, given they have the same jejeune wedding cake building style, the LDS temple in Lake Oswego, Oregon is particularly hideous. The Bellevue, Washington temple looks like a mini version of Moscow State University.

Mormon missionaries are all over Latin America, I met many in Chile, most of them very clueless.
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:27 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

JFK, I still think that Rafaelle was called in for the cleanup. AND I think that he will be the one to flip. As he has time to reflect, he may not want to be held as responsible as Amanda. And, with no nookie in the forseeable future, well......

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Offline DLW


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:31 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Maria Cantwell was on Anderson Cooper tonight and said she didn’t know if Amanda was innocent or not, only she didn’t think she got a fair trial because of the media frenzy and the jury isn’t sequestered . Which I take is not always the case in the USA. She also said that Ian Kelly of the American State Department isn’t familiar enough to know that there were no irregularities in this case. She expects to talk to Hillary and the State department and clear up this little discrepancy.
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Offline Geologist


Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:31 pm

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Location: Leeds and Toronto

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:32 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

jfk1191 wrote:
capealadin wrote:
I completely forgot that they did leave some of their dna in Meredith's room. I didn't know that Amanda's dna was also on the bra clasp. And I didn't know that they had proved that it was Amanda's shoe print. Should have done my homework. Still, I still wish they had gotten stiffer sentences. Such a small price to pay for so much suffering. I would not have behaved as well as Meridith's family, that's for sure.


I think many people think the sentence is too soft, if they believe they were guilty.
Many would assume a death penalty for a crime like this.


Why? Italy abolished the death penalty in 1948.

Italy is not America.
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Offline max


Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:55 am

Posts: 1564

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:39 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

capealadin wrote:
JFK, I still think that Rafaelle was called in for the cleanup. AND I think that he will be the one to flip. As he has time to reflect, he may not want to be held as responsible as Amanda. And, with no nookie in the forseeable future, well......

How can you say that of the convicted murderer of Meredith Kercher? The court got it all wrong? The evidence, the witnesses. After all this time. I really like to understand why someone could still think that one of them is innocent of being involved of the murder of Meredith.
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:40 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

The death penalty is not applicaple in many states in America. And I don't think that this would have warrented a death penalty in any event. Usually, there must be aggravated circumstances, such as robbery, premeditation, or multiple deaths. Still, 13 years,( the probable sentence) is very light. Especially as there are a lot of perks as compared to US prisons.

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Offline martin


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:44 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

From "Corriere della sera"
Raffaele asked his lawyers: "Where am I? Why am I still here?"

Amanda e Raf controllati a vista Gli Usa contro la giustizia italiana
La notte in carcere. Lei: «Alla fine vincerò». Lui: «Perché sono ancora qui?» 8 I giudici In camera di consiglio, venerdì, si sono riuniti due giudici togati e 6 popolari (3 uomini e 3 donne): solo uno è avvocato, gli altri non hanno mai trattato questioni legali

DA UNO DEI NOSTRI INVIATI PERUGIA - Amanda Knox non ha dormito, neanche un minuto: dopo la condanna a ventisei anni, ha passato la notte a piangere. Le compagne di cella l' hanno accolta con una tazza di latte, ma non è servito a calmarla. La direzione del carcere l' ha fatta sorvegliare, c' era paura che si suicidasse. Al mattino ha incontrato i suoi avvocati: «Lottate per me, per dimostrare la mia innocenza. Alla fine vinceremo noi, non è vero? Ma perché nessuno mi crede? Sono ferita nel cuore e nell' anima, ma so una cosa con certezza, ve la prometto: io non muoio». Raffaele Sollecito, invece, quando ha visto il suo avvocato Luca Maori gli ha chiesto: «Ma dove sono? Perché mi trovo ancora qui?». Completamente sotto choc, spiega il legale, sembra abbia perso contatto con la realtà. «Facciamo un appello alla direzione delle carceri, al Dap - dice il legale -, perché non lo trasferisca. Intanto chiediamo di rafforzare il supporto psicologico e nei prossimi giorni lo faremo visitare, valuteremo se le sue condizioni sono compatibili con il carcere». La condanna per omicidio ha lasciato il segno. Anche in America: le tv hanno dato il verdetto in diretta, scatenato critiche al nostro sistema giudiziario. La senatrice Maria Cantwell, per esempio, sostiene di avere «seri interrogativi sul funzionamento del sistema giudiziario italiano» e sul fatto che «l' antiamericanismo possa avere inquinato il processo». Severi sia i giornali, sia gli avvocati statunitensi che hanno definito «oltraggioso il verdetto». L' attacco della Cantwell è totale: «Non esistevano prove sufficienti per spingere una giuria imparziale a concludere oltre ogni ragionevole dubbio che Amanda fosse colpevole. Il processo ha messo in evidenza una serie di difetti nel sistema di giustizia italiano, compresi il trattamento aggressivo dei poliziotti nei confronti di Amanda, il fatto che la giuria non sia stata tenuta in isolamento - consentendo così ai giurati di leggere gli articoli spesso scandalistici sulla vicenda - e la negligenza mostrata dagli inquirenti nella raccolta delle prove». Sostiene di averne parlato sia con l' ambasciata in Italia sia con il segretario di Stato Hillary Clinton. Non è stata l' unica, in America, a schierarsi apertamente contro la sentenza. I media hanno criticato «il mancato isolamento della giuria», e più di un aspetto dell' impianto accusatorio. Diversi esperti legali statunitensi hanno giudicato «scandaloso» il verdetto. Ma le polemiche arrivate dagli Usa non riescono a portare serenità ad Amanda Knox. Anche lei, così come Raffaele, è parsa sotto choc durante l' incontro coi suoi avvocati. «Non ricordo quasi niente di ieri sera, chi ho abbracciato al momento della sentenza?». Luciano Ghirga le sorride: «Hai stretto me, non ricordi?». Lei cambia discorso: «Io non vi ho mai preso in giro, sono innocente. Ma perché non mi credono? Perché mi hanno condannato? Con quali prove?». Prima della sentenza Raffaele le ha fatto arrivare un messaggio d' affetto. Lei però non ha voglia di parlarne: «Gli voglio bene anch' io, ma oggi sono troppo delusa». Alla stessa ora, a metà mattina, Raffaele Sollecito confessa al suo legale un dettaglio: «Ho capito di essere stato condannato solo quando sono tornato in carcere. L' ho scoperto dalla televisione». Lui è in cella con un anziano condannato per pedofilia. Il padre Francesco dice che non lo abbandonerà «mai». Per i genitori di Meredith Kercher, nessun trionfo: «Giustizia è fatta ma non possiamo dirci felici. Ci sono due ragazzi in carcere e nessuno ci ridarà la nostra Mez». Una posizione ribadita, in conferenza stampa, anche dal fratello Lyle: «È una sofferenza non soltanto per noi e per le persone che conoscevano Meredith. A vivere una profonda sofferenza oggi sono anche i due ragazzi che hanno ricevuto la sentenza di condanna per un lungo periodo di detenzione». «Mez ci manca tanto, anche se è sempre con noi», ha aggiunto la sorella Stephanie. La procura di Perugia, intanto, ha annunciato che non ricorrerà in appello: per il pm Manuela Comodi, la sentenza di venerdì è «un dispositivo già equilibrato». Al. Cap. RIPRODUZIONE RISERVATA
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Offline MarinaNYC


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:48 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

DLW wrote:
Maria Cantwell was on Anderson Cooper tonight and said she didn’t know if Amanda was innocent or not, only she didn’t think she got a fair trial because of the media frenzy and the jury isn’t sequestered . Which I take is not always the case in the USA. She also said that Ian Kelly of the American State Department isn’t familiar enough to know that there were no irregularities in this case. She expects to talk to Hillary and the State department and clear up this little discrepancy.


Sequestering juries is an American standard, not an Italian one. How does she expect to "clear up" that discrepancy? Does the Senator not understand that Italy is a sovereign nation, with its own laws and rules of court. Didn't Ian Kelly state that his office had been involved in the case from the very beginning and had met with the Knoxes.

I am perplexed and saddened at the level of representation in the Senate, these days. Eeesh.
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Offline martin


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:53 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

capealadin wrote:
The death penalty is not applicaple in many states in America. And I don't think that this would have warrented a death penalty in any event. Usually, there must be aggravated circumstances, such as robbery, premeditation, or multiple deaths. Still, 13 years,( the probable sentence) is very light. Especially as there are a lot of perks as compared to US prisons.


But WA has the death penalty.
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Offline equinox


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:01 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

capealadin wrote:
JFK, I still think that Rafaelle was called in for the cleanup. AND I think that he will be the one to flip. As he has time to reflect, he may not want to be held as responsible as Amanda. And, with no nookie in the forseeable future, well......


Why would anyone keep their mouth shut all the way through to a conviction as a rapist and murderer if they were only guilty as an accessory after the fact? Surely he could have flipped his information about the truth long ago for dropped charges or seriously reduced penalty if he could. Instead he presented a series of three false alibis finally ending up with an "I don't remember" which threw a wrench into AK's third (fourth? fifth?) alibi without specifically countering it with proof, creating only doubt instead of any evidence of innocence. He could have hung the others out to dry and came off looking merely gullible. Only a shared guilt explains the silence of all three to me.

And why would any murderer call in her boyfriend of 6 days to help in a brutal crime scene cleanup? Did the mop need four hands?
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:02 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Good point, Martin

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Offline martin


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:06 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

From Spiegel Online:

"In den USA, wohl auch in Deutschland, wären Amanda Knox und Raffaele Sollecito freigesprochen worden " - in the US, and most likely in Germany too, Amanda would have been acquitted"

Im Zweifel gegen die Angeklagte
Von Alexander Smoltczyk, Rom


Elf Monate Prozess, 14 Stunden Richterberatungen - dann das Urteil: Amanda Knox und Raffaele Sollecito sind Mörder. Wegen der grausigen Tötung der Britin Meredith Kercher sollen sie 26 Jahre ins Gefängnis. Doch der spektakuläre Prozess in Italien hat reichlich Fragen offengelassen, es gibt viele Zweifel.

Als die fabelhafte "Amélie aus Seattle" hatte ihre Verteidigung Amanda Knox beschrieben, in Anlehnung an die populäre französische Filmfigur. Eine unkonventionelle junge Frau, die mit ihrer Neugier und ihrem Hunger auf Leben alle verwirrt, die meisten entzückt.


Das Urteil von Samstagnacht ist das Todesurteil für diese Amélie.

Nein, so haben die Laienrichter gesagt, nach 14 quälenden Stunden Beratung, nein - Amanda Knox, einst US-Gaststudentin in Italien aus Seattle, ist keine Harmlose. Sie ist eine Mörderin.

"Condannato, verurteilt... die Prozesskosten tragen die Angeklagten...", der Vorsitzende Richter las mit müder Stimme, ohne jede Emphase, das Urteil: 26 Jahre für Amanda Knox, 25 für ihren damaligen Geliebten Raffaele Sollecito.

Ein Jahr mehr für Knox, weil sie in ihrer ersten Vernehmung einen Unbeteiligten, den Barbesitzer Patrick Lumumba, belastet hatte. Knox soll ihm dafür 40.000 Euro Entschädigung zahlen, so das Gericht.

Bei der Urteilsverkündung brach Knox in Tränen aus. Sie stammelte "nein, nein" und fiel ihrem Anwalt in die Arme. Sollecito verharrte bleich und regungslos. "Nur Mut, nur Mut, Raffaele", rief ihm seine Schwester zu, als er den Gerichtssaal verließ. Das Urteil ist noch nicht rechtskräftig; die Verteidigung kündigte unmittelbar nach der Verkündung an, Rechtsmittel einzulegen.

Das Gericht von Perugia schloss sich in allen Punkten der Tatversion der Staatsanwaltschaft an. Knox und ihr Freund Sollecito hätten den Abend zusammen verbracht, seien später dann noch durch die Altstadt gezogen, wo sie den Ivorianer Rudy Guede trafen. Gegen Mitternacht seien alle drei noch auf ein Glas in die Via della Pergola gegangen. Das Opfer, Knox' Mitbewohnerin Meredith Kercher, sei zu diesem Zeitpunkt schon im Bett gewesen.

Kercher sei, sagte der Staatsanwalt, genervt gewesen, dass Knox schon wieder zwei Männer mit in die Wohnung gebracht habe. Es kam zum Streit, über ihre so verschiedenen Lebensweisen, über die nicht gezahlte Miete. Dann hätte Knox den Kopf von Meredith gegen einen Schrank geschlagen. Die Schilderung der Anklage: Kercher fällt zu Boden, die drei beginnen sie auszuziehen. Meredith wehrt sich, Sollecito holt sein Taschenmesser heraus, Knox holt ein Küchenmesser. Rudy Guede versucht, Meredith zu vergewaltigen, Sollecito verletzt sie.

Schließlich tötet Knox sie mit einem tiefen Schnitt durch den Hals. Alle drei fliehen, später kommen Knox und Sollecito zurück, fingieren stümperhaft einen Einbruch und verwischen die Fingerabdrücke.

Italien ist um eine Justizfabel reicher

Die Anwälte stellten im Prozess den aus der Elfenbeinküste stammenden Guede als alleinigen Täter dar - der wiederum Sollecito und Knox belastete.

"26 Jahre": Die Strafe klingt nach fester Überzeugung des Gerichts. Zu Unrecht.

Der lange Prozess hat keine Antwort auf zentrale Fragen gebracht. Es gibt nach wie vor kein Motiv und keine Beweise für die Täter, nur Hinweise, zum Beispiel belastende DNA-Spuren am Tatmesser und am BH der Toten. Auch die fehlenden Alibis und ihr ungewöhnliches Verhalten legten die Ermittler zu ihren Lasten aus. Zu wenig, um zwei jungen Menschen ihr Leben zu rauben.

Dass die Richter unter der Forderung des Staatsanwalts nach lebenslänglicher Haft geblieben sind, deutet eventuell an, dass ihnen die Lücken der Beweisführung bewusst waren. Im Zweifel für die Angeklagten?

Wenn Amanda und Raffaele mangels Beweisen freigesprochen worden wären, hätte das die gesamte bisherige Arbeit der Justiz in Zweifel gezogen, etwa die lange Untersuchungshaft, oder die Ergebnisse der (teilweise mehr als schlampigen) Spurensicherung.

In den USA, wohl auch in Deutschland, wären Amanda Knox und Raffaele Sollecito freigesprochen worden. Von "öffentlicher Hinrichtung aufgrund schierer Spekulation" sprach John Q. Kelly, der Ankläger im O.-J.-Simpson-Prozess.

Amélie ist tot, Amanda hinter Gittern, und Italien um eine Justizfabel reicher.

mit Material von AFP
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Offline equinox


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:08 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

According to the Death Penalty Information Center
"Washington currently has eight men on death row, and has not had an execution since 2001. In almost 30 years, there has been only one non-consensual execution. Four defendants have been executed since the death penalty was reinstated in 1981, but three of the four defendants waived their appeals. The paper cites a Washington State Bar Association report noting that of the 270 convictions for aggravated murder since 1981, the death penalty was sought 79 times, resulting in 30 death sentences. The majority of those cases were overturned on appeal, and most of those reversals resulted in life without parole sentences."


Last edited by equinox on Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline The 411


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:11 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

From the Corriere article posted by Martin
Amanda declares:
"ma so una cosa con certezza, ve la prometto: io non muoio"

"But I know one thing for certain: I promise you : I won't die."

OMG! Not only is she a perfect, and totally innocent, but now we learn she's. . . IMMORTAL?
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Offline martin


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:17 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

The 411 wrote:
From the Corriere article posted by Martin
Amanda declares:
"ma so una cosa con certezza, ve la prometto: io non muoio"

"But I know one thing for certain: I promise you : I won't die."

OMG! Not only is she a perfect, and totally innocent, but now we learn she's. . . IMMORTAL?


Hi 411, your avatar is a highway/freeway sign, isn't it?
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:18 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

I have to say, I have never met an Italian that I didn't like, and I know many. Even lived in Italy for awhile, and had Italian boyfriends. Love their family values, sense of style, and warmth. Also, they did condemn one of their own, so forget the antiamerican bias.Yes, it is hard to belive someone as young and pretty could be evil. But it reminds me when one of my sons was three years old and we were warning him about strangers, my husband, who is an attorney, asked our son what a stranger looked like, and he said with great confidence. "He wears a hat". All riiiiighty then....

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Offline The 411


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:19 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Oh, one last thing I've recalled about "La Famiglia" on Larry King.
Larry asked about the seemingly unbeatable charges re: AK falsely accusing Lumumba.
Curt's actual words included: "She was coerced." Once they realize THAT, he said assuredly..."the civil settlement WILL GO AWAY."

La famiglia è ASSURDA! They all live in Amanda's world of PURA FANTASIA!!
Or in the words of Doug Preston, they say the most
"FANTASTICAL" things, don't they??
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:22 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

I do u nderstand your point of view, Equinox, but I think he was waiting for a not guilty verdict. That's why I think now he may flip. I could be wrong, but that's my reasoning.

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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:30 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

411, lol. Amanda is very much like her father, no? I watched the show, and was struck by the way they both stick to their guns, no matter what comes their way. UNBELIEVABLE. No empathy, just totally well, one dimential.

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Offline Emerald


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:35 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

The common thread among everyone is AMANDA.

Sarcasm does not translate. Prank organized by Amanda gone bad.
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Offline equinox


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:40 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

capealadin wrote:
I do u nderstand your point of view, Equinox, but I think he was waiting for a not guilty verdict. That's why I think now he may flip. I could be wrong, but that's my reasoning.


By remaining mostly silent he has introduced the least evidence of deceit of the three, and perhaps the best possibility of reaching some kind of "reasonable doubt" in the minds of the judges of the appeal court. His multiple alibis, his foolish attempt to explain Meredith's DNA on the knife found at his house, the statement about "a pack of lies" - none of these lead to a greater understanding of what his role actually might have been.

Compare to the bulk of AK's statements to friends, police station and jail confessions, diaries, emails and testimony (and now that bizarre piece of fiction) - so much conflicting and contestable evidence! Yet, RS's very silence has dragged him into complicity with AK's contradictions. Hoping on the acquittal of someone else who has incriminated themselves more deeply than you have- as a means of getting off? Bad Plan.. Didn't work.
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:44 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Hi, Emerald, You could be right, but I just feel that she was so jealous of Meredith, what with taking her job, taking her to task about her boyfriends and cleaning (skills) and just being intimidated with her european savoir faire, and the attack seemed so personal, so much anger... nothing stolen, Rudi and Raffaele didn't know Meredith well enough to inflict such a frenzied personal attack. Feel free to correct me, i am open to all opinions, because I couldn't hurt a "spider". lol

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Offline The 411


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:46 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

martin wrote:
The 411 wrote:
From the Corriere article posted by Martin
Amanda declares:
"ma so una cosa con certezza, ve la prometto: io non muoio"

"But I know one thing for certain: I promise you : I won't die."

OMG! Not only is she a perfect, and totally innocent, but now we learn she's. . . IMMORTAL?


Hi 411, your avatar is a highway/freeway sign, isn't it?


Yes, indeed it is! And if you check your map, Martin, you'll see that the 411 really gets around...in the state of Washington, through Deep South, and even in Italia...Strada Statale 411! Yummi, Nicki, have you ventured onto the SS 411? I hope you'll take a moment and think of me, next time. b-((

But, I don't think of the sign as my "avatar". I really think of it more as my "Ava-tara" because Tara, here, assisted me in its creation.
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:51 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

411, is that Washington State? My family live on Mercer Island, and I have driven up from Los Angeles. I don't remember that freeway.

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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:54 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

G-ddammit, if it is, then doing crossword puzzles have not helped in avoiding Altzheimers

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Offline martin


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:28 pm

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:19 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

The 411 wrote:
Yes, indeed it is! And if you check your map, Martin, you'll see that the 411 really gets around...in the state of Washington, through Deep South, and even in Italia...Strada Statale 411! Yummi, Nicki, have you ventured onto the SS 411? I hope you'll take a moment and think of me, next time. b-((

But, I don't think of the sign as my "avatar". I really think of it more as my "Ava-tara" because Tara, here, assisted me in its creation.


I found this:
U.S. Route 411 is a spur of U.S. Route 11. It currently runs for 314 miles (505 km) from U.S. Route 78 in Leeds, Alabama to U.S. Route 25 in Newport, Tennessee. It passes through the states of Alabama, Georgia, and Tennessee, most notably by way of the cities of Gadsden, Alabama, Rome, Georgia, and the popular tourist destination of Sevierville, Tennessee.

Residents along the route commonly pronounce its numeric designation "four-eleven" or "four-leven".
But that's far away from WA. One question: Is U.S. route and interstate the same, and does it further mean that the federal governement and not the state is responsible for the maintainance? I have been driving a lot in flordia and to a lesser extent in CA and I never
understood the difference between Interstates/turnpikes/Us routes/freeways
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:25 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

martin wrote:
From Spiegel Online:

"In den USA, wohl auch in Deutschland, wären Amanda Knox und Raffaele Sollecito freigesprochen worden " - in the US, and most likely in Germany too, Amanda would have been acquitted"

Im Zweifel gegen die Angeklagte
Von Alexander Smoltczyk, Rom


Elf Monate Prozess, 14 Stunden Richterberatungen - dann das Urteil: Amanda Knox und Raffaele Sollecito sind Mörder. Wegen der grausigen Tötung der Britin Meredith Kercher sollen sie 26 Jahre ins Gefängnis. Doch der spektakuläre Prozess in Italien hat reichlich Fragen offengelassen, es gibt viele Zweifel.

Als die fabelhafte "Amélie aus Seattle" hatte ihre Verteidigung Amanda Knox beschrieben, in Anlehnung an die populäre französische Filmfigur. Eine unkonventionelle junge Frau, die mit ihrer Neugier und ihrem Hunger auf Leben alle verwirrt, die meisten entzückt.


Das Urteil von Samstagnacht ist das Todesurteil für diese Amélie.

Nein, so haben die Laienrichter gesagt, nach 14 quälenden Stunden Beratung, nein - Amanda Knox, einst US-Gaststudentin in Italien aus Seattle, ist keine Harmlose. Sie ist eine Mörderin.

"Condannato, verurteilt... die Prozesskosten tragen die Angeklagten...", der Vorsitzende Richter las mit müder Stimme, ohne jede Emphase, das Urteil: 26 Jahre für Amanda Knox, 25 für ihren damaligen Geliebten Raffaele Sollecito.

Ein Jahr mehr für Knox, weil sie in ihrer ersten Vernehmung einen Unbeteiligten, den Barbesitzer Patrick Lumumba, belastet hatte. Knox soll ihm dafür 40.000 Euro Entschädigung zahlen, so das Gericht.

Bei der Urteilsverkündung brach Knox in Tränen aus. Sie stammelte "nein, nein" und fiel ihrem Anwalt in die Arme. Sollecito verharrte bleich und regungslos. "Nur Mut, nur Mut, Raffaele", rief ihm seine Schwester zu, als er den Gerichtssaal verließ. Das Urteil ist noch nicht rechtskräftig; die Verteidigung kündigte unmittelbar nach der Verkündung an, Rechtsmittel einzulegen.

Das Gericht von Perugia schloss sich in allen Punkten der Tatversion der Staatsanwaltschaft an. Knox und ihr Freund Sollecito hätten den Abend zusammen verbracht, seien später dann noch durch die Altstadt gezogen, wo sie den Ivorianer Rudy Guede trafen. Gegen Mitternacht seien alle drei noch auf ein Glas in die Via della Pergola gegangen. Das Opfer, Knox' Mitbewohnerin Meredith Kercher, sei zu diesem Zeitpunkt schon im Bett gewesen.

Kercher sei, sagte der Staatsanwalt, genervt gewesen, dass Knox schon wieder zwei Männer mit in die Wohnung gebracht habe. Es kam zum Streit, über ihre so verschiedenen Lebensweisen, über die nicht gezahlte Miete. Dann hätte Knox den Kopf von Meredith gegen einen Schrank geschlagen. Die Schilderung der Anklage: Kercher fällt zu Boden, die drei beginnen sie auszuziehen. Meredith wehrt sich, Sollecito holt sein Taschenmesser heraus, Knox holt ein Küchenmesser. Rudy Guede versucht, Meredith zu vergewaltigen, Sollecito verletzt sie.

Schließlich tötet Knox sie mit einem tiefen Schnitt durch den Hals. Alle drei fliehen, später kommen Knox und Sollecito zurück, fingieren stümperhaft einen Einbruch und verwischen die Fingerabdrücke.

Italien ist um eine Justizfabel reicher

Die Anwälte stellten im Prozess den aus der Elfenbeinküste stammenden Guede als alleinigen Täter dar - der wiederum Sollecito und Knox belastete.

"26 Jahre": Die Strafe klingt nach fester Überzeugung des Gerichts. Zu Unrecht.

Der lange Prozess hat keine Antwort auf zentrale Fragen gebracht. Es gibt nach wie vor kein Motiv und keine Beweise für die Täter, nur Hinweise, zum Beispiel belastende DNA-Spuren am Tatmesser und am BH der Toten. Auch die fehlenden Alibis und ihr ungewöhnliches Verhalten legten die Ermittler zu ihren Lasten aus. Zu wenig, um zwei jungen Menschen ihr Leben zu rauben.

Dass die Richter unter der Forderung des Staatsanwalts nach lebenslänglicher Haft geblieben sind, deutet eventuell an, dass ihnen die Lücken der Beweisführung bewusst waren. Im Zweifel für die Angeklagten?

Wenn Amanda und Raffaele mangels Beweisen freigesprochen worden wären, hätte das die gesamte bisherige Arbeit der Justiz in Zweifel gezogen, etwa die lange Untersuchungshaft, oder die Ergebnisse der (teilweise mehr als schlampigen) Spurensicherung.

In den USA, wohl auch in Deutschland, wären Amanda Knox und Raffaele Sollecito freigesprochen worden. Von "öffentlicher Hinrichtung aufgrund schierer Spekulation" sprach John Q. Kelly, der Ankläger im O.-J.-Simpson-Prozess.

Amélie ist tot, Amanda hinter Gittern, und Italien um eine Justizfabel reicher.

mit Material von AFP



It looks like the media in Germany are not much better than in the US. It would have been good if they would have informed themselves better before publishing this article.

Quote:
Albert Einstein: Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; but I'm not sure about the universe.
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Offline Emerald


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:36 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

The Larry King Live transcript is not posted yet. Curt Knox repeated his accusations of the abuse by police. I think they should arrest him. He was warned and charged.
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:45 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

ok, don't speak german. goodnight all. just caught the last part of the movie August Rush. Such beautiful music, and the tears just flowed. Meredith loved to dance, and Amanda loves her music. Such a tragic story. Am counting my blessings, and want to thank everyone on this site for wanting justice. How wonderful that you take the time to express your feelings, and FEEL. It has been very humbling to realize how many smart and funny people are out there. I have always thought of myself as well read, and pretty quick on the uptake. Wrong. I learn from all of you. G-d Bless.

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Offline disinterested


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:46 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

SLATE/Why did Amanda get one more year?
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Offline Rebel


Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:25 am

Posts: 129

Location: Bellingham WA

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:47 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Martin, here is a description of Washington State Route 411 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_State_Route_411.
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Offline Earthling


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Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:25 pm

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:29 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Michael wrote:
American coverage of the Amanda Knox case has been terrible

Jarrett Skorup

EXAMINER

th-) Michael!!

CNN's coverage has been the worst I have seen in my lifetime. I don't remember them ever being so biased and one-sided in any other story. Even in the depths of the OJ Simpson scandal, when almost every thinking person seemed convinced of his guilt, they always had a lawyer or expert or someone who defended him. ALWAYS.

CNN, get your groove back. This is just disgusting. n-((
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Offline GreenWyvern


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:44 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Meredith's Father speaks out

From the Mirror:

Quote:
Accusations of anti-American bias at Meredith Kercher's murder trial have been branded "ludicrous" by her grieving father.

John Kercher, 66, blames confusion about the facts of the case for the wave of US support for American killer Amanda Knox. He said: "How can there be talk of anti-American bias when one of the three convicted of killing Meredith is Italian and the other is from the Ivory Coast? It's ludicrous. They have been judged on the evidence, not on where they have come from."

John spoke out yesterday after American experts slammed the Italian legal system on US TV.

Democrat Senator Maria Cantwell said there was an anti-US atmosphere at the trial and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton agreed to meet her to discuss backing Knox's appeal. On Friday, the student, 22, and her Italian ex-lover Raffaele Sollecito, 25, were found guilty of killing Meredith, 21, in Perugia two years ago. Both were jailed.

Dad John believes the only bias to have emerged is in the American media.

He said: "The Americans seem completely ignorant to the fact that there was a mass of evidence other than the DNA. I don't blame them because they are going on what they have seen and read. But it is upsetting for my family to hear these things. I believe the verdict was based entirely on the evidence and not any media attention around Amanda Knox. The jury saw Knox and Sollecito as a pair, it wasn't all about her.

"We have no reason to doubt the Italian legal system."


The full article is HERE, including a brief summary of the evidence.

I particularly liked, "... the only bias to have emerged is in the American media."

I'm glad that he has now responded strongly and clearly. Hopefully this will have some effect.
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Offline Tiziano


Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:06 am

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:44 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -IN HER OWN WORDS   

martin wrote:
The 411 wrote:
From the Corriere article posted by Martin
Amanda declares:
"ma so una cosa con certezza, ve la prometto: io non muoio"

"But I know one thing for certain: I promise you : I won't die."

OMG! Not only is she a perfect, and totally innocent, but now we learn she's. . . IMMORTAL?


Hi 411, your avatar is a highway/freeway sign, isn't it?


No problems AK: we all know "L'ERBA CATTIVA NON MUORE MAI!!!"

WHICH BEING TRANSLATED IS: WEEDS NEVER DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Offline Earthling


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:49 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
It is hard to make sense of Meredith's door. In the email, Knox said she did not knock on it until she came back with Sollecito because, when she saw that it was closed earlier, to her it meant that Meredith was sleeping. But she also claimed elsewhere that Meredith locked (and thus closed) her door when she was using the bathroom. And what about when Meredith was not home? Somehow, I find it hard to imagine that someone who locked her door while in the shower would leave it open when she was away. Then there is the odd claim, contradicted strenuously by Filomena, that it was normal for Meredith to have her door locked.

I just thought of something. Meredith had been living with Filomena and the other Italian girl for a while (a few weeks/months?) before Amanda moved in. Maybe she never locked her door then... but only began to when Amanda started getting on her nerves and she started distrusting her. Then again, maybe Amanda was just lying on the morning of the 2nd. Wouldn't be the first time.
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Offline Tiziano


Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:06 am

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:49 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

capealadin wrote:
Tiziano, I wonder if he (or she) got into Australia under Political Asylum?


Pull the other leg, Capealadin!! A political refugee from ITALY ............ Well that would really be likely (not)!
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Offline sam spade


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:18 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

capealadin wrote:
ok, don't speak german. goodnight all. just caught the last part of the movie August Rush. Such beautiful music, and the tears just flowed. Meredith loved to dance, and Amanda loves her music. Such a tragic story. Am counting my blessings, and want to thank everyone on this site for wanting justice. How wonderful that you take the time to express your feelings, and FEEL. It has been very humbling to realize how many smart and funny people are out there. I have always thought of myself as well read, and pretty quick on the uptake. Wrong. I learn from all of you. G-d Bless.


Hear, hear! I feel the same, Capealadin. The nights are long and cold and this site has helped me laugh through the sadness about Meredith's death and the USA's obscene obsession with itself. Good night all. gh-))
PS Earlier someone (sorry, forgot your name) asked about The Secret History. Yes, excellent book and some parallels. Another good book about group dynamics gone bad in a shared house is The Likeness by Tana French.
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Offline Willow


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:33 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Can I be hugely ignorant and ask what happens next with RG? Just waiting for a ruling? More testimony? Any opportunities for him to spill the beans?
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Offline Johnnie


Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:35 am

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:35 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Where were the other 2 inmates that evening /night ?
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Offline Earthling


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:50 am   Post subject: Re: Cantwell Gets Clock Cleaned   

Jester wrote:
Let's skip back in time to about 20 years ago, before DNA evidence was a court tool. Let look at the circumstantial evidence minus the DNA evidence. This is still a guilty case. It almost seems like the family excluded all the evidence except for the DNA, and then decided DNA evidence wasn't reliable, so Amanda would be found not guilty.

Exactly. It is a circumstantial case from the get-go. People have such short memories, but like you said, 20 years (and more) ago, this case would have been vigorously argued (and probably successfully) just on the circumstantial evidence, including the blood evidence (luminol and bloody prints, etc.), witness statements, alibi statements, etc. Now, it seems like if you don't have a trail of defendant's blood leading away from the crime scene (and sometimes, even if you do ... viz. OJ), in copious enough amounts that it can be tested and DNA-matched to the defendant, people refuse to believe he/she is guilty. As if no one ever murdered someone without leaving a bloody trail behind.
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Offline GreenWyvern


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:21 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Johnnie wrote:
Where were the other 2 inmates that evening /night ?

That day was a family holiday in Italy. The other two girls who lived in the house were at home with their families, as were the male students who lived downstairs.
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Offline IRONSIDE


Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:58 pm

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:23 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/b ... 947979.ece


Has anyone read this yet.I am incensed.....
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Offline Earthling


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:29 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

MarinaNYC wrote:
martin wrote:

Can you find mormons also outside utah?


Yes, they live everywhere in the U.S. Most often in the West, but there is a huge concentration in Utah, something like 70%

Mitt Romney, the former governor of Massachusetts and 2008 Presidential candidate, is Mormon. His father, George Romney, also a Mormon, was governor of Michigan and a 1968 Presidential candidate.

Mitt Romney did live in Utah while attending Brigham Young University; otherwise, though, I don't think he's lived there much, nor did his father, who was actually born in Mexico.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:36 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

How To Clean a Bloody Knife
Does DNA come off with soap and water?
By Juliet Lapidos
Posted Tuesday, Nov. 20, 2007, at 4:01 PM ET


SLATE

(old, but contains important info)



Why Did Amanda Knox Get an Extra Year in Jail?
Can DNA evidence really yield a false match? And other questions about the Italian murder trial.
By Brian Palmer
Posted Monday, Dec. 7, 2009, at 6:03 PM ET


SLATE

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline Earthling


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Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:43 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Geologist wrote:
The economy is still hurting, America is fighting 2 unpopular wars, is deeply divided politically and nothing is going to top Micheal Jackson dieing.

American's need a cosy feel-good story just in time for Christmas.

What better than the all American girl who bravely fought off the nasty Italian system and fled the country at great cost to her family. Stepping off the plane home waving a flag to be rushed to appear on Oprah, Good Morning America and Ellen and gush about how wonderful it is to be back on American soil, embracing the $$$'s flowing in for book deals and interviews + a documentary showing what a wonderful personality she is.

Oh gag with a spoon, puhleeze! tu-))

Mamma mia, I will love the Italians forEVa for saving us from this fate!!!
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Offline observer


Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:36 pm

Posts: 178

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:53 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

OT -

The Christian Science Monitor was started by the founder of Christian Science, Mary Baker Eddy, partly as a result of being subjected to the worst kind of yellow journalism of her day, and because she believed that people (particularly Christian Scientists) needed to be kept well informed about the affairs of the world without stooping to complete muck (they were also expected to pray for the world). Only one religious article is printed in each issue, the rest of the newspaper is completely independent of that. It is very well respected and has won numerous awards for its journalism. The article that was linked to up-thread is an example of that non hysterical, factual reporting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Christ ... ce_Monitor

As for the term Christian Science, the word science means "knowledge of" and it therefore means, the knowledge of the Christ. Mary Baker Eddy wanted to understand what it was about primitive Christianity, as practiced by Jesus, his disciples and the apostles, that allowed them to heal. Healing was central to the ministry of Jesus, and is central to Christian Science. Jesus often said of his works, he who believes in me shall do likewise, and greater works than these.

http://christianscience.com/
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Offline GreenWyvern


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:54 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

From the Irish Independent

Quote:
It seems Yanks just can't catch a break at the moment.

They're stuck in two unwinnable wars, their economy is knackered and the rest of the world hates them so much that students travelling abroad to places like Yurp are advised to put a Canadian flag on their back packs.

And the latest outrageous example of rampant European anti-Americanism comes with the 26-year sentence for Amanda Knox after she was found guilty of murdering her flatmate, Meredith Kercher.

Sure, the evidence was overwhelming; sure, Knox wasn't exactly the perfect defence witness -- doing cartwheels in a police station after being questioned for murder is, on reflection, not something a lawyer would recommend -- and there can be little genuine doubt that she's as guilty as sin.

Guilty of being American, that is.

That's the view of one American senator who has claimed that: "This raises questions about the Italian legal system" and now a campaign has been started in America to boycott all Italian goods.

Honestly, what's the world coming to when a brash young American can't traipse around the world killing people without facing justice?


It's pure racism.

Although this column's considered legal opinion is that she should had have been offered clemency on the grounds that she is remarkably cute (law school didn't work out too well for you, did it? -- ed.)
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Offline bucketoftea


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:19 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Good morning all

I just wanted to interject here a little about Christian Science. I was raised in Christian Science. The Monitor is the excellent paper that it is because of the church, not in spite of it. There is a lot of misunderstanding about it, like they don't go to doctors. (Of course we did). It's all about love and making it real. Thinking is encouraged. :)
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Offline Stevo


Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:42 am

Posts: 16

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:32 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

The Italian justice system was always going to come under scrutiny about this case, damned if they did, damned if they didn't. The way some of the American media have been reporting about the verdict, is just a huge slap in the face for Merediths family. I would say that the witnesses statements, and some of the dna evidence needs more clarity, but i think all 3 was involved in this tragic murder in some way. The events of that fateful night may never come to light, i have read the judges report and the trauma that girl suffered is just too much to even considered.

The real injustice in this case is, these evil b---ards will be out of prison in just over 10 years, to profit from their actions. If the appeal actually happens the judge should state no-one will be able to profit from any interviews/books on release from prison.

RIP Meredith
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Offline nowo


Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 12:35 pm

Posts: 186

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:32 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Hi Ironside, yes that article in the Times is a shocker. Goes to show that the US doesn't monopolise crap journalism. The only good thing about it is the return of the mysterious Harry Rag in the comments section below. :)
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Offline IRONSIDE


Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:58 pm

Posts: 15

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:41 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Good morning nowo..ah yes but it is a Murdoch owned newspaper...I have left a comment but doubt it will be published. In England we no longer have free speech Carter Ruck has seen to that.
Hi Stevo, I am not sure of the law in Italy is this true.?..25 years does not mean they will have to serve this time?..I hope that there is a law that they cannot profit from their crime.

The British press are a disgrace they have not bothered to follow this case. Now it looks like a slanging match, they are ready to join in. The British press as usual have also forgotten the victim Meredith ...they will have us soon feeling sorry for Amanda.
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Offline MikeMCSG


Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:14 am

Posts: 207

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:57 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

IRONSIDE wrote:
Hi Stevo, I am not sure of the law in Italy is this true.?..25 years does not mean they will have to serve this time?..I hope that there is a law that they cannot profit from their crime.


They are not likely to spend all that time in prison but the giant awards of compensation to the Kerchers are I believe primarily intended to stop them profitting from the crime. Having said that I think it might be quite difficult to enforce that ruling on AK if and when she got back on US soil.
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Offline nicki

Forensics Moderator


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:08 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Yummi wrote:
Popham:

"... the powerful influence of the US on Italian post-war politics – for decades actively preventing the Communists from entering government, for example – has left Italy with tortured and contradictory feelings towards the US, an unstable mixture of admiration and resentment. The vigorous campaign by US-based supporters of Ms Knox may have been counter-productive. "

I am learning now that I am tortured and contradictory because of the US.
What a fine theoretic anthropologist.
(my Region has a Communist government since 1948 . jtk)
"Painstaking" Popham, I'm admired... and it is typical of frustrated leftists to put people in jail randomly

Does Popham actually get paid to write this stuff? huh-)

_________________
"A pensare male si fa peccato, ma molto spesso ci si azzecca" mike
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Offline Kermit


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Posts: 580

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:23 am   Post subject: WHO'S YOUR DADDY ???   

nicki wrote:
Yummi wrote:
Popham:

"... the powerful influence of the US on Italian post-war politics – for decades actively preventing the Communists from entering government, for example – has left Italy with tortured and contradictory feelings towards the US, an unstable mixture of admiration and resentment. The vigorous campaign by US-based supporters of Ms Knox may have been counter-productive. "

I am learning now that I am tortured and contradictory because of the US.
What a fine theoretic anthropologist.
(my Region has a Communist government since 1948 . jtk)
"Painstaking" Popham, I'm admired... and it is typical of frustrated leftists to put people in jail randomly

Does Popham actually get paid to write this stuff? huh-)

Hi Nicki,
I think the question is: WHO pays Popham to write this stuff?

:?
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:29 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Kerchers angry at Knox supporters’ political ploys

Meredith Kercher’s mother attacks Senator Maria Cantwell for trying to enlist Hillary Clinton in Amanda Knox’s appeal
By Rachel Helyer Donaldson
LAST UPDATED DECEMBER 8, 2009

THE FIRST POST

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"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline nowo


Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 12:35 pm

Posts: 186

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:31 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

So when is the cash going to dry up? Are they recycling TV appearance money into 'journalists' pockets? (what a virtuous circle!).
When they solicit for the defense fund online, what is the legal status of the fund? Can donations be written off against tax? Are they open to scrutiny?
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:53 pm

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:37 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

The anti American charge Senator Cartwheel is trumpeting at the moment is doomed to failure as it's fundamentally baseless and wrong.
The horse is lame before the race starts, like most of the nonsense produced by the supporters of Amanda Knox and quite simply this charge will not be able to be substantiated as her partners in crime are one Italian and one Ivorian immigrant.
It's just not going to fly.
Reading through the posts I noticed a couple of references to the mad cookery blogger and her silence since the verdict.
Can we not hear the squealing of the rats as they throw themselves onto the traps in her rat infested kitchen?
Will the cookery blogger now have to follow the party line and trash the Italian system of justice and in doing so go against everything she believes in with her passion for extolling the virtues of all things Italian - or will we see more vomit inducing hypocrisy?
Quite frankly though, I don't really care as we have a verdict and justice has been served.

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R.I.P
Meredith Kercher.


Last edited by DeathFish 2000 on Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:37 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Signs that suggest Amanda Knox is a psychopath

The narcissism and the nonchalance are both indicators, says The First Post’s psychoanalyst
By Coline Covington
LAST UPDATED DECEMBER 8, 2009

THE FIRST POST

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"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Johnnie


Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:35 am

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:47 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Goodmorning
i have a question about this. tia

(Filomena Romanelli recalled watching her boyfriend, Marco Zaroli, and a friend, Luca Altieri, breaking into the locked bedroom where Kercher lay dead)

So that door was locked .
Was the key inside the door ?
Or was the key disappeared ?
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:51 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Johnnie wrote:
Goodmorning
i have a question about this. tia

(Filomena Romanelli recalled watching her boyfriend, Marco Zaroli, and a friend, Luca Altieri, breaking into the locked bedroom where Kercher lay dead)

So that door was locked .
Was the key inside the door ?
Or was the key disappeared ?


Yes, the door was locked and the keys have never been found.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Stevo


Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:42 am

Posts: 16

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:55 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Johnnie wrote:
Goodmorning
i have a question about this. tia

(Filomena Romanelli recalled watching her boyfriend, Marco Zaroli, and a friend, Luca Altieri, breaking into the locked bedroom where Kercher lay dead)

So that door was locked .
Was the key inside the door ?
Or was the key disappeared ?


I don't know the answer to where the key was found! but the door being locked was one of the reason why i personally thought it was the convicted 3. If it was a random intruder why would he/she lock the door?
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Offline bucketoftea


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Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:09 pm

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:56 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

nowo wrote:
So when is the cash going to dry up? Are they recycling TV appearance money into 'journalists' pockets? (what a virtuous circle!).
When they solicit for the defense fund online, what is the legal status of the fund? Can donations be written off against tax? Are they open to scrutiny?


They will not have charitable status. It's never granted for the benefit of one person.
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Offline malcolm


Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:26 am

Posts: 239

Location: Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Nell wrote:
It looks like the media in Germany are not much better than in the US. It would have been good if they would have informed themselves better before publishing this article.

Well, now we know where butters was getting his info.
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Offline chives


Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 11:02 am

Posts: 13

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

I've reading your informative and intelligent forum since the trial started ( thank you for the brilliant work!) and usually found answers before asking you but for the small detail of the type of lock of Meredith's door. Did one need to turn the key to lock from the outside or could it be pushed to become locked? Did all the inside bedrooms have different keys?
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Offline malcolm


Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:26 am

Posts: 239

Location: Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Stevo wrote:
I don't know the answer to where the key was found! but the door being locked was one of the reason why i personally thought it was the convicted 3. If it was a random intruder why would he/she lock the door?


Not just a random intruder - even if it were only Rudi he wouldn't have had a reason to lock the door. What could he hope to accomplish by that, a delay in discovery of the body by a few minutes? He didn't lock Filomena's door, so the break-in would've been discovered right away, and there were of course his shoeprints all across the living room, in addition to the blood in the bathroom.

OTOH, it makes perfect sense that AK and RS would lock the door - they wanted someone else to be the first to discover the body. Besides, their work in that room was already done - all the shoeprints except Rudi's had been removed (except one by Amanda that they missed on the pillow). Now if only the police hadn't come so early so they could've finished with the bathroom.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

chives wrote:
I've reading your informative and intelligent forum since the trial started ( thank you for the brilliant work!) and usually found answers before asking you but for the small detail of the type of lock of Meredith's door. Did one need to turn the key to lock from the outside or could it be pushed to become locked? Did all the inside bedrooms have different keys?


Hi Chives and welcome to PMF :)

It was a turn key lock and could be locked from both the inside and the outside. There was no push button locking mechanism, the key was required to lock or unlock the door.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Stevo


Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:42 am

Posts: 16

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Michael wrote:
chives wrote:
I've reading your informative and intelligent forum since the trial started ( thank you for the brilliant work!) and usually found answers before asking you but for the small detail of the type of lock of Meredith's door. Did one need to turn the key to lock from the outside or could it be pushed to become locked? Did all the inside bedrooms have different keys?


Hi Chives and welcome to PMF :)

It was a turn key lock and could be locked from both the inside and the outside. There was no push button locking mechanism, the key was required to lock or unlock the door.


So it was a mortice type lock?
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Dear All,

I want to make a post.

I have been incredibly ill over the last two months, I don't want to go into it. I guess it's what comes with age.

Pete, you know I've had my arguments with you but what you've done over the last few days has been incredible.

I still keep up..

Signing off now

Brian
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Offline Michael

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Location: England

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Brian S. wrote:
Dear All,

I want to make a post.

I have been incredibly ill over the last two months, I don't want to go into it. I guess it's what comes with age.

Pete, you know I've had my arguments with you but what you've done over the last few days has been incredible.

I still keep up..

Signing off now

Brian



Hi Brian. I'm very sorry to hear that. I wish you a full and speedy recovery and know that we all miss you.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Stevo wrote:
Michael wrote:
chives wrote:
I've reading your informative and intelligent forum since the trial started ( thank you for the brilliant work!) and usually found answers before asking you but for the small detail of the type of lock of Meredith's door. Did one need to turn the key to lock from the outside or could it be pushed to become locked? Did all the inside bedrooms have different keys?


Hi Chives and welcome to PMF :)

It was a turn key lock and could be locked from both the inside and the outside. There was no push button locking mechanism, the key was required to lock or unlock the door.


So it was a mortice type lock?


Hi Steve and welcome. Yes, mortice lock.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline anne


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Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:04 pm

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

martin wrote:
From "Corriere della sera"
Raffaele asked his lawyers: "Where am I? Why am I still here?"


Or: Who am I and if yes how many? :D
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Offline The Bard


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Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:46 pm

Posts: 2486

Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Brian S. wrote:
Dear All,

I want to make a post.

I have been incredibly ill over the last two months, I don't want to go into it. I guess it's what comes with age.

Pete, you know I've had my arguments with you but what you've done over the last few days has been incredible.

I still keep up..

Signing off now

Brian



Brian, so sorry to hear you've been ill. Stay strong and hopeful and know that your contribution to the board has been phenomenal too. Your posts were always wonderful, your articles so clear and well written, your manner so courteous and friendly. You are greatly missed, and we look forward to hearing from you again when you are fully recovered. You're a legend!

The Bard

p.s I thought of you when the verdict was announced and wondered where you were!

hugz-)

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Offline Kermit


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Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:37 am

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:59 pm   Post subject: GET WELL SOON !!!!!!   

Brian S. wrote:
Dear All,

I want to make a post.

I have been incredibly ill over the last two months, I don't want to go into it. I guess it's what comes with age.

Pete, you know I've had my arguments with you but what you've done over the last few days has been incredible.

I still keep up..

Signing off now

Brian

Well, Brian, you'd better get incredibly well, and very soon, because the judge's (or judges') report will soon be out on Raffaele's and Amanda's trial, and we'll need the same analysis and explanation which you patiently gave to Micheli's report on Rudy's short-track trial.

GET WELL SOON!!
:)
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Offline anne


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Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:04 pm

Posts: 173

Location: Berlin Kreuzberg

Highscores: 3

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

malcolm wrote:
Nell wrote:
It looks like the media in Germany are not much better than in the US. It would have been good if they would have informed themselves better before publishing this article.

Well, now we know where butters was getting his info.


Just wanna say that i don't think its right to say THE german media.
This is one author and he seems not have done his work proberly.
I've never heard of him before. The Spiegel has very good court speacialists but i guess they are busy with trials going on in their own country.
Spiegel is a very good magazine but the information given in this article is the work of one person. All other news i have seen about the case in germany were neutral.
(And i don't count smear-papers like BILD (Springer-Press) in it, people who read that don't deserve any better)
And saying media in germany is not better than in the US...wow, thats far fetched and a bit offending.


Last edited by anne on Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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