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XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 - Dec 9, 09

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Offline Jester


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Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:24 pm

Posts: 2500

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:09 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

MikeMCSG wrote:

You're entirely right (as is Ghirga) about the likely effects of the campaign but it's a little unfair to pin it on Amanda herself. None of the anti-American bias crap has come out of her mouth and her latest writings and work request at least hint at some resignation to her fate. Her worst enemies are her family and their refusal to even take a moment to reflect on the verdict.


It seems to me that there is only one person that could have silenced the group that is formed by Amanda's friends, and friends of her parents, and that's Amanda herself. Anne Bremner is connected to the Knox parents through some judge (can't remember his name) that is a neighbour (something like that). Sorry, didn't pay attention to the details early on.

Point is, if Amanda had said to them early on that it is in her best legal interests for them to not criticize the prosecutor, and not criticize Italy, they would have stopped. Instead, they involved Senator Cantwell and Clinton on Amanda's behalf ... and somehow I think this is what Amanda wants. She may even partially believe that Clinton can somehow get her a pardon, or interfere with the Italian justice system.
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Offline windfall


Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:22 pm

Posts: 608

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:15 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Just a few random reflections. I don't have time to follow the forum in great detail, though I did my best last week leading up to the verdict.

Barbie Nadeau's most recent article at the Daily Beast, which Michael, I think, posted a link to the other day, is remarkable for its subtlety, sophistication, and compassion: compassion for more than just Meredith. I think there is a lot to be learnt there in terms of attitude.

I am struck by all the attempts to interpret AK's story and then her poem. For a forum dedicated to truth and fact, there is a remarkable amount of hot air generated in terms of cod-psychology, whether it is interpreting photos of AK and RS, or in detailed analysis of these recent writings. FWIW, and just as a starter for 10, I read the story as from a female rather than a male perspective. Just an indicator of how subjective this all can be.

Finally, one of the things that still perplexes me most about the case: does anyone know of a scenario like this one having happened before? I am sure it must have done, some day, somewhere. But female vs. female homicide is rare; aggravated by a sexual assault, it is even less common. The only recent case that comes to my mind is Karla Homolka, and there were massive complicating factors there in terms of Karla being abused by her husband and partner in crime.
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Offline Jester


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Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:24 pm

Posts: 2500

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:16 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

coolbeach wrote:
Hi.

I also lurk here and don't post much. But I just wanted to thank everyone for their hard work and dedication to making this board truthful. And by posting links to back up comments. I can't bear to watch TV here anymore(I am in NJ, USA). It is so biased and I am sick of seeing AK's parents all over the place crying the blue's about their daughter/legal system and bashing Italy. I get so mad I find myself yelling at the TV. I just can't believe these people. But, it is their daughter and they do not want to beleive that she could commit a murder. I actually feel sorry for them at times(not to many though). If they could see themselves thru someone else's eyes they really do look pathetic. It's ironic because if it was turned around and she was found innocent I do believe they would have praised the Italian legal system for such a great job and saving their daughter. I have no doubt in my mind that they both are guilty, I just wish someone would speak up about what really happened so we can all know the truth. The conclusions that were drawn are excellent, but I feel some details are left out or missing. I think if anyone will breakdown it will be RS and he will throw AK under the bus. He is the weakest link and has remained silent thru all of this. I think this makes him look more reliable. AK took the stand and "told a lot of rubbish". We are no better off now than if she chose to remain silent. Just another act for her. I am starting to agree with the posters here who felt she thought she was acting in a play. Seems like it now to me especially after her closeing message with the mask of a murderer. Not one mention of Meridith - and those fake hand gesters as if she was really Italian and all of the "mama mia's" during the trial. Please....

The "Mama Mias" really got to me too. It sounded so contrived and out of place. It may well be part of Italian conversation, but for someone whose Italian is still not perfect, it would be better to stick to translating one's thoughts into Italian as accurately as possible and omit the unnatural colloquial words and gestures.

I agree too in that the Knox/Mellas family appears to have based their opinion of the Italian Justice system solely on the verdict delivered to Amanda ... which is anything but rational.
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Offline Tiziano


Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:06 am

Posts: 714

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:26 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -DON'T CLOUD THE ISSUES!!!!!!!   

Corriere on Frattini/Clinton


Il ministro degli Esteri e le polemiche sul PROCESSO
The Foreign minister and Polemics about the TRIAL
Amanda, Frattini prova a smorzare
Amanda, Frattini tries to tone things down
«La Clinton non ha criticato la sentenza»
"CLINTON DID NOT CRITICISE THE JUDGEMENT"
Il capo della Farnesina: «Non facciamo confusione». Sollecito trasferito a Terni, la Knox resta a Perugia
FARNESINA HEAD: "LET'S NOT CREATE CONFUSION". SOLLECITO TRANSFERRED TO TERNI, KNOX REMAINS IN PERUGIA.
A DOT POINT SUMMARY OF WHAT THE ITALIAN FOREIGN MINISTER SAID FROM ITALY'S MOST PRESTIGIOUS DAILY
Brussels:
*Franco Frattini denies Clinton criticised Meredith trial judgement
*Who is criticising? A citizens' petition organised by family of guilty party
*Don't cloud the issue: Hillary is certainly not involved
*Lots of people talk to me about Forti (business man from Trentino already in gaol for 10 years in hard prison in Miami, found guilty of murder & sentenced to life) & Parlanti (physicist & programmer in gaol in California since 2005, sentenced to 8 years for rape)
*Only right that HC should listen to American senator
Sollecito/Amanda:
*RS (sentenced to 25 years) transferred to Sabbione di Terni prison after short stay at Capanne prison Perugia (this confirmed by Luca Maori- his lawyer - who will visit him there in in the next few hours)
*AK in Capanne (26 year sentence)
*RHG in gaol in Viterbo (30 year sentence)
December 7th, 2009

Italian Foreign Minister Franco Frattini
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Offline nowo


Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 12:35 pm

Posts: 186

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:32 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Hi Windfall, there wasn't a great deal of talk on Ak's new story, as far as I can remember. Even less on the poem, as no-one has yet claimed to see anything in it!
I also saw the story as coming from a female perspective, AK wistfully saying goodbye to the other AK that 'died' that night. Anyway, by talking about it we're getting speculative!
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Offline MikeMCSG


Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:14 am

Posts: 207

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:36 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Jester wrote:
MikeMCSG wrote:

You're entirely right (as is Ghirga) about the likely effects of the campaign but it's a little unfair to pin it on Amanda herself. None of the anti-American bias crap has come out of her mouth and her latest writings and work request at least hint at some resignation to her fate. Her worst enemies are her family and their refusal to even take a moment to reflect on the verdict.


It seems to me that there is only one person that could have silenced the group that is formed by Amanda's friends, and friends of her parents, and that's Amanda herself. Anne Bremner is connected to the Knox parents through some judge (can't remember his name) that is a neighbour (something like that). Sorry, didn't pay attention to the details early on.

Point is, if Amanda had said to them early on that it is in her best legal interests for them to not criticize the prosecutor, and not criticize Italy, they would have stopped. Instead, they involved Senator Cantwell and Clinton on Amanda's behalf ... and somehow I think this is what Amanda wants. She may even partially believe that Clinton can somehow get her a pardon, or interfere with the Italian justice system.


I think Amanda could only do that by confessing; otherwise they will always think they know best since she is still a baby in their eyes. You have to think Ghirga has made the point to them time and time again but of course he's Italian himself and therefore suspect. Although quoted in today's Sun Curt does seem to be distancing himself from Cantwell's initiative so maybe he has started listening.
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Offline bucketoftea


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Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:09 pm

Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:40 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

nowo wrote:
Jester said:
Quote:
Just thinking out loud ... but Amanda's lawyer has done everything he could to distance her from media attention in the US. Amanda and her family have done the opposite. Her lawyer said just a couple of days ago that this latest media attention will not help. I think Amanda should have listened to her lawyer.

Initially, in the first few hours, all the media support was for Amanda, with names like Senator Cantwell, and Clinton, being attached to the case. Just a few days later, more and more people are taking the time to find out what this case is all about. The more they learn, the worse it looks for Amanda. It shouldn't take too long for people to walk away from the case altogether. At the time of the appeal, when Amanda could maybe really use some strong support, everyone will be long gone. Amanda is her own worst enemy at every turn.


I thnk this is a good point, and I do hope as the dust settles that there is a 'second wave' of US commentary on the actual evidence and the judicial process we have just followed.
Another thing which would help would be for the Massei (presumably) Report to be published in English. My understanding from the Micheli report is that they don't translate or allow digital copies of the whole report, just excerpts. If on this occasion, given the international audience, they were to put a read-only translation on, say, the Ministry of Justice website, it would go a long way to subvert the subverters.


Ah! That would be a great idea. Perhaps providing a translation is something the State Dept could actually usefully do.
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Offline Tiziano


Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:06 am

Posts: 714

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:55 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -Hillary clears things up!   

Clinton/Arline K/Sollecito
Delitto di Perugia: Hillary Clinton risponde, Raffaele Sollecito trasferito a Sabbione di Terni
pubblicato: martedì 08 dicembre 2009
da Daniele Particelli in: Delitto di Perugia
Tues 08/12/09
Main points of report:
H. CLINTON:
"We have had no indication that Italian law was not respected. The Italian government authorised our consular staff to attend the trial. As well, we have been able to visit AK periodically and will continue to play this rôle of checking and support."

In the meanwhile Arline Kercher - Merdith's mother - has spoken out criticising Knox's family.

ARLINE KERCHER:
"The news that they were going to appeal was already quite difficult and now this ... I do not know where they want to get by involving people in high office. In the days I spent in court it seemed a normal trial. We did not get any special treatment either, so I don't understand how there can be an anti-American element."

LUCA MAORI: (about Sollecito, who is reported to be in shock)
"He's ill, he has lost the sense of time and space. He keeps asking "When am I getting out? When can I go away?" In brief, he can't understand how this could have happened, and he doesn't know what is going to happen now. He is afraid about his future and we have tried to reassure him.. I had a long meeting with the prison head who was very helpful."

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Offline Michael

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Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

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Location: England

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:00 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

Tiziano wrote:
If you keep pushing the envelope, it is quite likely that the paper will tear, you know.


Some are doing more then pushing the envelope...they're trying to blow up the post office.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:03 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 -   

European: America's favourite insult
When in America, if you wish to describe something as bad, you
can just call it 'European'. It's very useful

Hadley Freeman
The Guardian, Wednesday 9 December 2009

THE GUARDIAN

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Offline bucketoftea


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Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:09 pm

Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:13 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 - Dec 9, 09   

Knox: My rights were respected.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/ar ... kweGdpgEhA
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Offline MikeMCSG


Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:14 am

Posts: 207

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:15 am   Post subject: Re: XII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 9 - Dec 9, 09   

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/ar ... kweGdpgEhA


Translates as "Mom, Dad STFU !"
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:17 am   Post subject: ADMINISTRATOR NOTE - LOCKING THREAD!   

picture of a pumpkin
This topic has been locked by a Moderator
Reason: Administrator Note: Locking Thread!

I have now locked this thread. Please continue the discussion in the new Main Discussion Thread Here: XIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, DEC 9 -

This thread will now be stored along with all the other past Main Discussion threads in the Murder of Meredith Kercher sub forum on PMF.

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"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


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