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XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 - Oct 9, 09

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Offline 007


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 6:40 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

jfk1191 wrote:
Michael wrote:

Mignini is up for 10 months in jail isn't he? No intelligent person would be over confident would they?
Unless this is just lip service, but then why would the courts pursue it and not have dropped it and ignored it to begin with?

I would think it's somewhat a accusation that goes with the job, but I don't know.

People who know the Italian system would know the statistics.

Is this a very common trial for Prosecutors in Italy?
Or is it actually something that doesn't happen often to Prosecutors?


I did some research on this when the Kercher case began. As it turns out, many corruption cases have been brought against high ranking members of the judicial system in Italy, but to date, no judge or prosecutor has ever been convicted of a serious crime or sentenced to jail time. They protect their own over there. Mignini clearly overstepped his authority, IMO, when he wire-tapped other government officials without their knowledge, without first receiving (the equivalent of) warrants to do so.

In this post 9/11 era of 'Patriot Acts' and 'War on Terror', such activities appear to be perfectly acceptable, despite the potential societal instability that may result...
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Offline jhansigirl


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:54 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

petafly wrote:

That was my guess, sorry if i smogged you (whatever that means), jhansigirl!
I want to repeat for the sake of completeness why i think Mignini might use the phone records: this way he could possibly show that Amanda actually knew Meredith was dead before her door was opened by the police. That little connection, if possible to make, would be one fine way to prove her guilt just using facts and logic!

But he's a sly fox, let's get prepared for a surprise!
.


Hi petafly, I'm sorry I thought I had read it on Candace's blog which is why I said 'smogged' . It was just a play on words nothing more. la-)


BTW, thank you for pointing out Mack-Mack's post on the Daily Beast. Very interesting and useful. th-)

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Offline mistercrunch


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:23 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Chris M. showing over at Frank´s (again) what kind of character he is...
Quote:
Chris said...
[...]You can blow smoke and sunshine up each others rear ends all day and night...but you will be no nearer your desired result. (unless your desire is to be nearer your buddy's butt)[...]The silliest part of all this is when I see you spouting things which haven't even been talked about in court. Things which are only talking points on the digital rubber rooms (PMF, TJMK, Etc)[...]
September 24, 2009 7:31 PM


I´m really glad that here we never sank down to that level.

But how does he know what is talked in court? He´s not fluent in italian, he won´t pay a personal translator and frank only tells him what he wants to hear to prevent him from freakin´out. And i can´t imagine that AK´s lawyers like to talk to him much, notably if they know something about his behaviour out of court like above. I mean, if i was AK´s lawyer, i also would rather like to talk to Curt than to Chris and his Goofygang.

He never has done, and never will do, his stepdaughter any favor with his behaviour like quoted above. And if there was a crown for counterproductive behaviour, he would be the king. I bet Marriott already suffers under gastric ulcer, hope he gets compensation for his suffering.
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Offline mojo


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:13 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

teacher wrote:
Bard,

Did you ever see the movie, "Dead Man Walking" starring Sean Penn? I saw it years ago so can't go into the details, but the film was very intense and dealt with a man on death row who never admitted to himself or anyone that he committed the crime he was found guilty of. Just before he was executed, he finally (with the help of a tough nun) was able to own up to it. Your discussion above reminded me of it. If you haven't seen it and it sounds interesting to you, check it out.



an excellent film and brings up a point that seems to be the case in many murder scenarios..the unwillingness or inability of the perpetrator to accept responsibility. i've often wondered if they are truly convinced or have lied themselves into such a corner with friends, family and supporters that coming clean is not an option.
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Offline bucketoftea


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:28 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Sorry, I don't (am I sinking to their level?) feel sorry for the likes of Marriott. They deserve all the ulcers they get.
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:36 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

mistercrunch wrote:
Chris M. showing over at Frank´s (again) what kind of character he is...
Quote:
Chris said...
[...]You can blow smoke and sunshine up each others rear ends all day and night...but you will be no nearer your desired result. (unless your desire is to be nearer your buddy's butt)[...]The silliest part of all this is when I see you spouting things which haven't even been talked about in court. Things which are only talking points on the digital rubber rooms (PMF, TJMK, Etc)[...]
September 24, 2009 7:31 PM


I´m really glad that here we never sank down to that level.

But how does he know what is talked in court? He´s not fluent in italian, he won´t pay a personal translator and frank only tells him what he wants to hear to prevent him from freakin´out. And i can´t imagine that AK´s lawyers like to talk to him much, notably if they know something about his behaviour out of court like above. I mean, if i was AK´s lawyer, i also would rather like to talk to Curt than to Chris and his Goofygang.

He never has done, and never will do, his stepdaughter any favor with his behaviour like quoted above. And if there was a crown for counterproductive behaviour, he would be the king. I bet Marriott already suffers under gastric ulcer, hope he gets compensation for his suffering.


Compared to other comments that person wrote, this one is still quite civil.

That man and his comments are as helpful as a hole in the head.
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Offline mistercrunch


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:39 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

(AGI) - Perugia, 25 set - "E' possibile che la memoria, in condizioni di stress, possa avere delle modificazioni. Una situazione di pressione e di prolungata tensione puo' indurre il fenomeno dell'illuminazione anche di un ricordo in realta' inesistente, un falso ricordo". E' una delle conclusioni del neurologo Carlo Caltagirone, consulente della difesa di Amanda Knox, oggi sentito come testimone nel processo davanti alla Corte d'assise di Perugia che vede imputati l'americana e Raffaele Sollecito per l'omicidio di Meredith Kercher. Il professor Caltagirone ha incontrato Amanda Knox in carcere nel marzo scorso. Un colloquio di circa tre ore durante le quali il consulente ha rivolto alla giovane alcune domande e che ha portato l'esperto a definire "molto buone" e "tipiche di una ragazza giovane" le condizioni cognitive della Knox. Il consulente ha comunque sottolineato come una persona con una funzione cognitiva normale possa avere difficolta' di memoria in situazioni specifiche come lo stress. L'avvocato Carlo Dalla Vedova, uno dei legali di Amanda Knox, ha ricordato in aula che la sua assistita "e' stata sottoposta a interrogatorio per circa 42 ore" nei giorni dal due al sei novembre del 2007, quando poi e' stata fermata dalla polizia (Meredith Kercher e' stata uccisa la notte tra il primo e il due novembre 2007).
Durante l'interrogatorio avvenuto in Questura la notte tra il cinque e il sei novembre Amanda indico' il musicista congolese, Patrick Lumumba Dya, come l'autore dell'omicidio di Mez.
Dichiarazione che porto' all'arresto di Lumumba, in seguito scagionato da ogni accusa e tornato il liberta'. L'avvocato Dalla Vedova ha letto oggi in aula alcuni passi del memoriale che la giovane di Seattle scrisse e nel quale la ragazza diceva di avere "seri dubbi" sulle sue dichiarazioni rilasciate "sotto stress". "Sono molto confusa" e "la mia testa e' piena di idee contrastanti che non riesco a distinguere" sono alcune delle frasi contenute nel memoriale e ricordate oggi in aula dall'avvocato Dalla Vedova. "Amanda e' una persona apparentemente serena e disponibile - ha detto Carlo Caltagirone - ma in realta' vive le situazioni di stress dentro di se. Essere interrogati per un periodo molto lungo, in una situazione in cui si prospetta anche una certa colpevolezza, in un paese straniero e senza comprendere bene la situazione in cui ci si trova, puo' portare a una situazione di forte stress". Per il consulente "non e' prevedibile stabilire a priori i tempi di durata del "falso ricordo".


Nothing new as far as i can see. He said what he had to say. Stress, foreign country, pressure, memory loss, the FOA mantra. Why didn´t they call Candace herself to the stand, she would have said the same, but maybe for a lower price than an expert is paid.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:40 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

MEREDITH: CONSULTANT KNOX, STRESS CAN 'MAKE UP FALSE MEMORY

(AGI) - Perugia, 25 September - "E 'memory may, under stress, may have some modifications. A situation of prolonged pressure and tension can' cause the phenomenon of enlightenment even a memory in reality ' nonexistent, a false memory. " And 'one of the findings of the neurologist Carlo Caltagirone, adviser to the defense of Amanda Knox, now heard as a witness in the trial before the Court of Assizes of Perugia who sees the American defendants and Raffaele Sollecito in the murder of Meredith Kercher. Professor Caltagirone met Amanda Knox in jail in March. An interview about three hours during which the consultant turned to the girl some questions, which led the expert to define "very good" and "typical of a young girl" the cognitive conditions of Knox. The consultant has however stressed that a person with normal cognitive function may have difficulty 'of memory in specific situations such as stress. The lawyer Carlo Dalla Vedova, one of the lawyers of Amanda Knox, recalled in court that his client 'and' been subjected to interrogation for about 42 hours "in two to six days of November 2007, and then when 'was stopped the police (and Meredith Kercher 'was killed the night between the first and two November 2007).
During the interrogation took place at police headquarters the night of five and the six novembre Amanda means' Congolese musician Patrick Lumumba DYA, as the author of the murder of Mez.
Statement that harbor 'arrest of Lumumba, later acquitted of all charges and returned the Freedom'. The widow's lawyer has read today in court a few steps of the memorial that the young woman in Seattle where she wrote and said he had "serious doubts" about his statements "under stress". "I'm very confused" and "my head and 'full of conflicting ideas that I can not tell" are some of the phrases contained in the memorial and remember the lawyer in court today by his widow. "Amanda and 'a person apparently calm and helpful - said Carlo Caltagirone - but actually' living situations of stress within themselves. Being interviewed for a very long time, it envisages a situation where a certain innocence, in a foreign country without a good understanding of the situation where you are located, can 'lead to a situation of great stress. " For the consultant "is not 'expected to decide in advance the time duration of" false memory ".



AGI

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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

My translation of the AGI article.
"Knox Consultant stress can bring false memory"
“Is possible the memory, in conditions of stress, may have some alterations. A situation of prolonged pressure and tension can cause the phenomenon of enlightenment of a memory even in reality non existent, a false memory.” It is a conclusion of neurologist Carlo Caltagirone, adviser to Amanda Knox defense, now heard as a witness in the Court of Assizes trial of Perugia, where Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are on trial for the Meredith Kercher murder. Professor Catagirone met Amanda Knox in jail in March. During a three-hour interview, the consultant made some questions, which led the expert to define the cognitive conditions of Knox “very good” and “typical of a young girl”. However, the consultant has stressed that a person with normal cognitive function may have difficulty of memory in specific situations such as stress. The lawyer Carlo Dalla Vedova, for Amanda Knox defense, recalled in court that his client “has been subjected to about 42 hours interrogation” from the 2nd to 6 November 2007, and (Meredith Kercher was killed the night between the first and second November 2007).



During the interrogation that took place at police headquarters on the night of 5th and the 6th November Amanda indicated Congolese musician Patrick Lumumba DYA, as the author of Meredith’s murder.
Statement that brought the arrest of Lumumba, later acquitted of all charges and returned to Freedom'. Dalla Vedova read today in court a few steps of the memorial that the young woman from Seattle where she wrote and said she had "serious doubts" about her statements "under stress". "I'm very confused" and "my head is full of constracting ideas that I can not distinguish" are some of the phrases contained in the memorial and reminded by lawyer Dalla Vedova in court today.
"Amanda is a person that appears calm and willing -said Carlo Caltagirone- but actually lives situations of stress within herself. Being interviewed for a long period of time, in a situation where it envisages certain guiltiness, in a foreign country without a good understanding of the situation where you are located, can lead to a situation of great stress." For the consultant "is not foreseeable to establish in advance the duration time of “false memory".
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Offline jhansigirl


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Ok so all those perpetrators of crimes in the past who had broken down and confessed to crimes in can now ask for their cases to be re-opened because they all had 'false memories' after hours and hours of police interrogation and they did not really do the crimes.

- Yeah right!

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Offline mistercrunch


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Was he called by Knox´s Defense only? Or did he speak for BOTH defendants like Harry posted at the cook´s?
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Offline GreenWyvern


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

AP Report

"ROME — A neurologist testifying Friday at the trial of an American student accused of killing her British roommate said stress could have caused the defendant to have false memories about the night of the killing, news reports said."

Pretty feeble.

What's this claim about 42 hours of interrogation from the 2nd to 6th November? 8 hours a day for 5 days? The number of hours she was questioned just seems to grow and grow all the time.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

007 wrote:
Hmmm.

Does anyone in PG who may be reading this - know of 'Shaky''s whereabouts today (nearly 2 years subsequent to the crime)?


You should ask Oceania 8, who early on began talking up the idea of Rudy's "accomplice", the guy who "got away" and who Rudy is "afraid of". As far as I can tell, this story is loosely based on O8's son's relationship with Rudy and other townies. O's son was a student in Perugia. According to O, he and his housemates were picked up for questioning by police four days after Meredith Kercher's murder. I don't think anyone except for O8, Chris Mellas and vested interests in the Railroad Job From Hell theory really give this idea much credence.

The only thing I find interesting is that O8 is tacitly admitting that the Lone Wolf theory has never had prima facie plausibility. It was necessary to find an accomplice. So much the better if he has vanished since the crime.

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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:14 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

GreenWyvern wrote:
AP Report

"ROME — A neurologist testifying Friday at the trial of an American student accused of killing her British roommate said stress could have caused the defendant to have false memories about the night of the killing, news reports said."

Pretty feeble.

What's this claim about 42 hours of interrogation from the 2nd to 6th November? 8 hours a day for 5 days? The number of hours she was questioned just seems to grow and grow all the time.


I suspect the 42 hours represents the time she spent "in the presence" of the police over those 5 days.

On the 2nd-3rd she was with them from the time of the discovery of Meredith's body through to the following morning. Maybe 16/18 hours. But so were the other flatmates, assorted boyfriends and Meredith's English friends.
It's the time where their stories come from of AK's inappropiate behaviour.

A murder had just been discovered.

But on the day she accused Patrick, she went to classes in the day and out for a meal with RS in the evening.
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Offline GreenWyvern


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

A new article from Nick Pisa in the Daily Mail

Quote:
Under cross-examination prosecutor Giuliano Mignini asked if stress was also caused by telling lies. Professor Caltagirone said that that lying 'increased heartbeat and sweat'.

Prosecutor Mignini then also asked him if Knox's 'cartwheels' at the police station while she was being questioned were 'also a sign of stress'.

Professor Caltagirone replied: 'It was probably her way of dealing with nervous tension'.

:lol:
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

GreenWyvern wrote:
AP Report

"ROME — A neurologist testifying Friday at the trial of an American student accused of killing her British roommate said stress could have caused the defendant to have false memories about the night of the killing, news reports said."

Pretty feeble.

What's this claim about 42 hours of interrogation from the 2nd to 6th November? 8 hours a day for 5 days? The number of hours she was questioned just seems to grow and grow all the time.


This is certainly not a staggering revelation. Stress can indeed cause all sorts of things. Did it, though? And what was the cause of this stress, if there was indeed stress? Lying is also a cause of stress for many people. Drugs can also cause false memories, and so can psychotic breakdowns, manic or depressive episodes, etc.

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Offline Fly by Night


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

mistercrunch wrote:
Nothing new as far as i can see. He said what he had to say. Stress, foreign country, pressure, memory loss, the FOA mantra. Why didn´t they call Candace herself to the stand, she would have said the same, but maybe for a lower price than an expert is paid.


What's new is that getting mentally tortured and repeatedly hit on the head has, apparently, been "thrown out" - otherwise the witness for the defense would have said "stress, in conjunction with police brutality, will cause the memory to change"
mop-)


Last edited by Fly by Night on Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Brian wrote:

"But on the day she accused Patrick, she went to classes in the day and out for a meal with RS in the evening."

I'm sure that was their way of dealing with stress.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

GreenWyvern wrote:
A new article from Nick Pisa in the Daily Mail

Quote:
Under cross-examination prosecutor Giuliano Mignini asked if stress was also caused by telling lies. Professor Caltagirone said that that lying 'increased heartbeat and sweat'.

Prosecutor Mignini then also asked him if Knox's 'cartwheels' at the police station while she was being questioned were 'also a sign of stress'.

Professor Caltagirone replied: 'It was probably her way of dealing with nervous tension'.

:lol:


Does this mean that the mysterious police officer who, according to Chris Mellas, made Knox do cartwheels has never been located? I bet he, Shaky and Rudy's mysterious friend all took off together for parts unknown.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Mistercrunch wrote:

"Nothing new as far as i can see. He said what he had to say. Stress, foreign country, pressure, memory loss, the FOA mantra. Why didn´t they call Candace herself to the stand, she would have said the same, but maybe for a lower price than an expert is paid."

And Candace could have also provided a graphologically sound handwriting analysis because, as Turtle Dove has pointed out, she has a master's degree in journalism and AK's written submissions are at the seventh or eighth grade level. This is not my assessment of the writings; it is Turtle Dove's.

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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

I've been saying from day one that Amanda Knox would have sung like a bird by now if it wasn't for her mother telling her to keep her mouth shut and the family will deal with it, and that is about the kindest thing I can say for this person. She had virtually done that anyway before her mother arrived in Perugia on her 1st visit.
I would also say her description of the police questioning her was how she saw things in her naive mind and when related to her mother and family they then blew it up to the ridiculous proportions we see today.
It's a bit like accusing the local authority of verbally raping you after they have sent you a reminder to say your library books are overdue.

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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Quote:
The wounds found on Meredith Kercher's body are incompatible with the knife prosecutors say was used to kill the British exchange student in November 2007, a Perugia trial heard Friday.

''Mereditch's throat was slashed several times but the deepest cut went 8cm in, while the alleged murder weapon is much longer, 17cm,'' said Walter Patumi, a consultant for defendant Amanda Knox.

He said the victim had been immobilised, ruling out the possibility that the difference between the wound depth and the knife length was due to Kercher struggling with the knife-wielder.

The knife was found in the house of US student Knox's Italian ex-boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito shortly after the murder and police say it has Kercher's DNA on the tip and Knox's on the handle.

Patumi said the DNA was ''contaminated'' and therefore inadmissible as evidence............ and quite a bit more


ANSA

"contaminated" means they accept that the DNA on the blade is Merediths.

How far a knife "goes in" depends on the force behind the stab.
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Offline GreenWyvern


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Quote:
The wounds found on Meredith Kercher's body are incompatible with the knife prosecutors say was used to kill the British exchange student in November 2007, a Perugia trial heard Friday.

''Mereditch's throat was slashed several times but the deepest cut went 8cm in, while the alleged murder weapon is much longer, 17cm,'' said Walter Patumi, a consultant for defendant Amanda Knox.

This line of argument is unconvincing for two reasons:

1. It's not really likely that anyone would thrust a 17cm knife completely through a neck and out the other side. Probably the maximum diameter of the neck was only about 10cm. 8 cm already means that the knife went most of the way through the neck. To stab right through the neck up to the handle of the knife, in one motion, with a knife as wide as the one in question, would have required considerable strength accurately applied. So it would be unlikely to find wounds much deeper than those actually found, given the confined space, and probably a struggle taking place. The wounds are reasonable for the knife and situation in question.

2. It's quite possible, even likely, that there was a second knife which has never been recovered.
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Offline mojo


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

the hail mary pass lives in perugia, i see. first it was the dope, then it was the cops, she was confused, tortured and now stressed -- what next, the devil made me do it?
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

DeathFish 2000 wrote:
I've been saying from day one that Amanda Knox would have sung like a bird by now if it wasn't for her mother telling her to keep her mouth shut and the family will deal with it, and that is about the kindest thing I can say for this person. She had virtually done that anyway before her mother arrived in Perugia on her 1st visit.
I would also say her description of the police questioning her was how she saw things in her naive mind and when related to her mother and family they then blew it up to the ridiculous proportions we see today.
It's a bit like accusing the local authority of verbally raping you after they have sent you a reminder to say your library books are overdue.

I am with you on this DF2K and I believe the same goes for Sollecito's father.
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

From tgcom.
http://www.tgcom.mediaset.it/cronaca/ar ... 1305.shtml

Walter Patumi: "Raped before killed"
Before being killed, "Meredith has had a sexual actiivity but in the form of violence." Walter Patumi, medical and legal adviser to the defense of Amanda Knox, the American girl accused of murdering Meredith. Moreover, according to the defense, the knife 17 centimeters seized at the home of Raffaele Sollecito could not have caused the wounds that were inflicted upon the English girl.

Before being killed “Meredith had sexual activity but in the form of a violence”. Said Walter Patumi, medical-legal adviser to Amanda Knox defense, the American girl accused of murdering Meredith. Besides, according to the defense, the 17 cm knife that was seized at Raffaele Sollecito house, could not have caused the wounds that were inflicted on the English girl.

"The larger wound -said the consultant- that led to the death with certainty of Meredith, was the result of more strikes and it is certain that whoever killed the girl did it sinking the full blade. The wound is deep 8 cm while the knife seized at the house of Raffaele Sollecito has a blade of 17 centimeters. So there isn’t compatibility”.
But Patumi didn’t focus only on "wound and knife," he also studied the traces of a sexual activity that Meredith would have had before her death. "My conclusions are that Meredith has had a sexual activity but in the form of violence" repeated the coroner. An analysis that for Amanda and Raffaele’s defense have ago at putting another notch on the road that leads to the single killer Rudy Guede.

In courtroom then also deposed the neurologist Carlo Caltagirone. "We have demonstrated that the 'false memory' is a possibility." Explained Carlo Dalla Vedova, Knox defense lawyer. "We brought this expert consultant on questions of memory (the lawyer went on) to support the fact that, under certain conditions, individuals may react to the point where there are memories that, in fact, do not correspond to reality.”

"Amanda subjected to severe stress"
Here is a young girl without experience, in a tragic and traumatic situation subjected to a stress of days of interrogation. A stress which may have led to a reaction such as Amanda had and we have brought it to the attention of the Court. Is clear that evening, there was something that did not go the right way".

Lawyer Francesco Maresca for the victim’s family: "No false memory"
Francesco Maresca, does not believe the hypothesis of the false memory of Amanda Knox linked to stress, according to the lawyer for the family of Meredith Kercher:
"The reasons are others."
"The theory of false memory exists but can not be applied so broadly. It is not possible that for so many days can exceed what was the reality”.

Lumumba: "Amanda wanted to sidetrack the investigation"
"I believe what Amanda told, she said it in premeditated manner in the deliberate attempt to divert the investigation.”
"There were so many other people that Amanda could’ve indicated. I believe in science, I believe the professor and I believe that stress can lead people to these things, but I also think that Amanda, in giving my name, wanted to sidetrack the investigation.”
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Offline DLW


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Ann wise with a overview of today’s events.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/US/ ... id=8673957
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Offline mistercrunch


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

So what we now have is....nothing new angel-)

And for sure, nothing 'thrown out' la-)

But we still have: witnesses who saw them at the cottage, the computer activity that contradicts the so called first alibi (second alibi if you count 'partying' as first alibi), unanswered phonecalls from daddy...and so on...and so on.

What we don´t have is an alibi that is supported by evidence (or at least supported by 'silent-raff' ) and so....let´s go on with the trial.
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Offline bucketoftea


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Curt says the interrogation was "continuous, continuous,continuous". Edda says "hours and hours and hours"
The police did not require her to attend...
Amanda herself said the questioning only became intense/?aggressive that evening "at a certain point" (will that be the point where Raff dropped her in it?) Funny how the expert sounds just like the Foakers....
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Offline mistercrunch


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

I´m still a bit suprised by these weak statements from that highly paid experts. Even turtle dove could have googled that. Where is the 'explosive' thing they wanted to offer? Tomorrow maybe? I´m still waiting for the superhero-expert...
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Offline mistercrunch


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Question to Yummi: if that 'independent review' or independent experts provide the (prosecutions and forensics) evidence that was braught up in court, what does this mean for the appeal? Will there be an appeal at all? Or is that the last card the defense can play?

Sounds a bit like an 'all in' in poker with bad cards in your hand.
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Offline Yummi


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

mistercrunch wrote:
Question to Yummi: if that 'independent review' or independent experts provide the (prosecutions and forensics) evidence that was braught up in court, what does this mean for the appeal? Will there be an appeal at all? Or is that the last card the defense can play?

Sounds a bit like an 'all in' in poker with bad cards in your hand.


There will always be appeals in case of conviction. However if an indipendent expert subrscribes entirely the interpretation of evidence from proscecution, this will be transmissed to the appeal court and very likely could influence all degrees of appeal and seal the defendant's fate permanently. That's why a super-expert has fo be only the very last bolt for the defense.
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Offline Fly by Night


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:07 pm   Post subject: But she said...   

Jools wrote:
From tgcom.
"My conclusions are that Meredith has had a sexual activity but in the form of violence" repeated the coroner. An analysis that for Amanda and Raffaele’s defense have ago at putting another notch on the road that leads to the single killer Rudy Guede."


Except for Amanda's statement that she was the facilitator and instigator for Meredith's sexual encounter - but let's go ahead and call it what it was: rape - and that she was right there that night. And, Raffaele's admission that he and Amanda were at "a party" with "a friend" on the night of the murder.

Not to mention all the hard evidence (bloody footprints, mixed blood samples around the cottage, dna, etc.) that clearly demonstrates for even the casual observer that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito were in the cottage on the night of the murder.
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Offline mistercrunch


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Quote:
Posted by turtle dove at 9/25/09 3:13 p.m.

Coulda woulda shoulda! Had Patrick taken the high road his bar would have thrived again. He is the maker of his own destiny. He forgave Amanda in public and than reneged on his forgiveness and cursed her. It is not a very savvy marketing plan to publicly burn a foreign student when your clientele is for the most part foreign students. His bar emptied because students clearly could see Amanda was innocent and this was a rail road job from Hell. His clientele saw through the games and wanted no part of them. Foreign students clearly voted with their feet and found new watering holes. 'Have a cold one and help me roast a student'probably turned a lot of students away.


That is disgusting. I don´t know what to say more. This is so telling about the character of these people, i could almost puke tu-))
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 - flexible mind   

Quote:
On the request of Knox's lawyers Caltagirone visited her in jail last spring, and spent a few hours with her. He gave her a psychological evaluation and found her to be in "very good general and cognitive condition, typical of a girl of her age, with a flexible mind."
ABC

Flexible mind. As in: “the mind that is very good at justifying bad actions, telling lies and concocting multiple alibis”? That sort of flexibility?
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Offline The 411


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

In the Ann Wise report posted by DLW, Curt Knox protests Italian police questioning, saying that "they took advantage of a very young girl."

What is he trying to make us believe...that Amanda is still eight years of age? Amanda was and IS an ADULT, Curt, no longer "a VERY YOUNG GIRL." A young woman, maybe, but certainly not "a very young girl."

And if you view her as so vulnerable and naive, why would you, the parent, have allowed frail unsophisticated and impressionable Amanda to live completely on her own, in a foreign country?
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

New article by FRANK

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:34 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

This is how low Amanda's supporters have sunk. This was posted on Frank's. I'm ashamed to share the same name with this poster:

Michael from Switzerland wrote:
OK, it is a known fact that it was the cat and yes you can go to bed now.

By the way, it is a known fact that there was no staging in Fuckomenas room. Fuckomena went into this room many times after the crime and possibly put the glass parts on her clothes by herself. Also it was shown that glass parts fall outside if a stone is thrown into a window. Actually as an engineer I already knew this, because the energy of the impact will go in all directions.

Michael from Switzerland

September 25, 2009 4:37 PM



FRANK'S CESS PIT

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:55 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Michael wrote:
New article by FRANK


Again, such an interesting article:
Even Patrick, after hearing, wanted to release his precious opinion: Amanda Knox premeditated the crime and tried to mislead the investigations. He risks becoming the slanderer now.

How ridiculous. How pathetic. The FOA are convinced that offence is the best defence.


I don't know why anybody defending Amanda Knox would post an image like that from her:

Now how funny is that?

bricks-)
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Offline fine


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:10 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

The Effects of STRESS

Well, if interrogation stress caused false memories in Amanda, should she be innocent, it also turned her into a clairvoyant.
She correctly guessed that the assailant was male and black (how could she know?). She correctly guessed that the victim had been sexually assaulted (how could she know?) She correctly guessed that the assault happened the night of Nov 1, instead of the morning of Nov 2 (how could she know?) And the deafening screams, that don't usually precede a murder (how could she know?) Not to mention Amanda knowing that the assailant did not enter through a window, since the assailant was a guest.
And does stress also make a sweet innocent girl vicious,....vicious enough to try to send an innocent man to jail, for life?

////
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:16 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

fine wrote:
The Effects of STRESS
--- snip ---
Well, if interrogation stress caused false memories in Amanda, should she be innocent, it also turned her into a clairvoyant.
--- snap ---
////


Right. Most strikingly she knew how Meredith had died and how she was found even though she couldn't know that.

Sometimes I ask myself how her parents are able to avoid the elephant in the room.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:24 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

The 411 wrote:
In the Ann Wise report posted by DLW, Curt Knox protests Italian police questioning, saying that "they took advantage of a very young girl."

What is he trying to make us believe...that Amanda is still eight years of age? Amanda was and IS an ADULT, Curt, no longer "a VERY YOUNG GIRL." A young woman, maybe, but certainly not "a very young girl."

And if you view her as so vulnerable and naive, why would you, the parent, have allowed frail unsophisticated and impressionable Amanda to live completely on her own, in a foreign country?


And judging from his title, Frank continues the now great tradition of infantalizing Ms. Knox. Speaking of Frank, his vigilance about questionable posts appears to have been shortlived. I saw a post from earlier today knocking the victim, Meredith Kercher, and now I see that "Michael from Switzerland" has weighed in there with an adorable nickname for Filomena.

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Offline Tiziano


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 2:23 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

In comparison to some of the foul rubbish being posted elsewhere by people who are so limited in intelligence and linguistic skills that they resort to filthy insults of people totally extraneous to the crime, here is a full, balanced and reasoned account of Friday's events.

La Nazione
TRIAL RESUMES IN COURT OF ASSIZES: KNOX'S CONSULTANTS IN COURTROOM

PERUGIA September 25th, 2009

The trial of the young American and Raffaele Sollecito for the murder of Meredith Kercher resumed this morning before the Perugia Court of the Assizes, with the deposition of the neurologist, Carlo Caltagirone, consultant for the defence of Amanda Knox. The two accused, who proclaim their innocence, were both present in court. Knox was still wearing the red sweatshirt with the word "Beatles" and the stylised images of the faces of the English musicians.

"A situation of great stress can induce false memories in a person and Amanda Knox, after the murder of Meredith Kercher and the long questioning to which she was subjected, could have found herself in this situation". This is the opinion of the neurologist Carlo Caltagirone, heard today as consultant for the defence of the young American in the course of the trail before the Court of the Assizes of Perugia.

The university teacher explained that he had spent two or three hours with the student from Seattle last winter. He had then defined Knox' condition as "typical of a young woman", from a cognitive point of view. "Amanda - Caltagirone claimed - is an apparently open person, but in reality, when she experiences stressful situations she internalises them. Being interrogated at length in a foreign country without fully understanding the situation in which one is can lead to a state of extreme stress."

Questioned by the police before being arrested, Knox accused Patrick Lumumba Dya of murder, he being subsequently completely absolved of any wrongdoing. Among other things, the same young American retracted this after a few days, claiming to be no longer sure of the presence of the Congolese musician in the crime house. Knox must also answer to a charge of defamation against Lumumba for this.

Speaking with journalists after the hearing, Caltagirone explained that false memory linked to extreme stress "is a documented phenomenon which happens". "It can be scientifically be reproduced - he added - and all the elements exist to apply it to Amanda Knox."

Another Knox consultant, the forensic doctor Walter Patumi, then gave evidence, citing the "absolute incompatibility" of the knife, confiscated from the house of Raffaele Sollecito, and claimed to be the weapon in the crime by the prosecution, with the wounds inflicted on the neck of Meredith Kercher. For the consultant in particular the deepest wound inflicted on the victim's neck (8 cm long, 4 cm wide and 8 cm deep) "is not compatible" with the knife claimed to be the murder weapon, which has a blade of 17.5 cm. For Patumi the mortal wound is the result of "several blows, at least three, inflicted at the same point after the first, with a total penetration of the blade".

"It is difficult to think - said Knox' consultant - that three blows struck with such violence, so as to overcome the resistance of the hyoid bone, stopped at a depth of eight centimetres with a blade of 17.5 and that the killer did not want to stab to the full depth." "Such a knife - Patumi said - would have gone through the victim's neck from one side to the other." Then talking about the tests which resulted in isolating traces of DNA from Amanda Knox and Meredith Kercher on the same knife, the consultant spoke of a "strange method of identification" on the part of the police scientific branch.

Still according to Patumi, the results are "the fruit of contamination". Finally, as far as the sexual violence is concerned, the forensic doctor underlined the "absence of signs, both in the sexual organs and on the lower limbs of the victim". "It is strange to theorise that such a violent and determined aggressor should have interrupted these acts of violence without attempting to physically overwhelm the victim."

"If a further two months are needed to have the truth of the matters come out, then it is worthwhile waiting, rather than waiting the two years which might be needed for the appeal." Kurt Knox , Amanda's father gave this opinion, talking to journalists at the end of today's hearing and referring to the possibility that the Court of the Assizes of Perugia may accept an eventual request for supplementary expert reports on the part of the defence for Amanda and Raffaele Sollecito. Knox continued, "I cannot see how any other decision can be made, with what has been heard up till now."

According to Amanda's father, "today it was understood that they took advantage of a girl to whom continuous and continuous questions were put during the interrogation". He concluded, "Amanda was interrogated by the police for four days, for a total of 41 hours. It's natural that she should have become confused."

"Amanda wanted to sidetrack the investigation. That's why she gave my name." Patrick Lumumba responded like this to the theory put forward today in court, that Amanda Knox had false memories related to stress when she mentioned his name during the initial stages of the investigation into the murder of Meredith Kercher. The musician was then absolved of any wrongdoing and is now a civil complainant against the young American, accused of his defamation. "There were so many other names...." Lumumba continued leaving the Court building. "I believe in science and Prof. Caltagirone - he added - but Amanda wanted to sidetrack things and she premeditated it."

The lawyer for the civil claim of the Kercher family, Francesco Maresca, doesn't believe in the theory of false memory linked to stress in Amanda; according to him "there are other motivations". He said this leaving the court building in Perugia at the end of today's hearing. "The theory of false memory exists - Maresca continued - but it cannot be applied in such a broad way.. Thus it is not possible that it could have prevailed over reality for so many days."
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Offline Buzz


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 2:32 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

So, let's assume that stress made AK say all those inaccuracies in the days after the murder. What's RS's excuse? If AK has now come back to earth and her current version of events is really true, why isn't it corroborated by RS's statements? Why didn't he tell it like it was from the beginning? Or are we to believe that RS too became unable to tell the truth due to stress? Ridiculous.
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 2:38 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Tiziano wrote:
--- snip ---
According to Amanda's father, "today it was understood that they took advantage of a girl to whom continuous and continuous questions were put during the interrogation". He concluded, "Amanda was interrogated by the police for four days, for a total of 41 hours. It's natural that she should have become confused."
--- snap ---


Where does the total of hours come from? A usual day of work in Italy has 8 or 8 1/2 hours. Even interrogating for four days non-stop would sum up in a maximum of 34 hours.

@Tiziano
Thank you very much for translating the article!
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Offline lisareik


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 4:04 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

To Michael from Switzerland,
What is your agenda?
Your crude demeaning of Ms. Knox's roommate is unwarranted and unfunny.

Amanda KNox is guilty and will be indicted.

Check your reactions to this and ask yourself Why is distorting the truth so important for you?
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Offline lisareik


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 4:44 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Can anyone help with first, what did this esteemed neurologist Dr. Carlagirono actually earn or profit from his ridiculous testimony, and second, what are his credentials and background as a specialist?

You woner how Dr. Sollecito does it, pull these dubious witnesses out of a magic hat.

Not that they will help...
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 5:37 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Michael wrote:
Michael from Switzerland wrote:
--- snip ---
By the way, it is a known fact that there was no staging in Fuckomenas room. Fuckomena went into this room many times after the crime and possibly put the glass parts on her clothes by herself.
--- snap ---
Michael from Switzerland
September 25, 2009 4:37 PM


FRANK'S CESS PIT


The way of expressing reminds me of a post from Chris Mellas I read. Rude, vulgar, gross.
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 5:43 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

lisareik wrote:
--- snip ---
You woner how Dr. Sollecito does it, pull these dubious witnesses out of a magic hat.
--- snap ---


No magic hat - just a big bank account. He can afford it.


lisareik wrote:
--- snip ---
Not that they will help...
--- snapp ---


I don't think they will have the same weight compared with the neutral experts.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 6:08 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

GreenWyvern wrote:
Quote:
The wounds found on Meredith Kercher's body are incompatible with the knife prosecutors say was used to kill the British exchange student in November 2007, a Perugia trial heard Friday.

''Mereditch's throat was slashed several times but the deepest cut went 8cm in, while the alleged murder weapon is much longer, 17cm,'' said Walter Patumi, a consultant for defendant Amanda Knox.

This line of argument is unconvincing for two reasons:

1. It's not really likely that anyone would thrust a 17cm knife completely through a neck and out the other side. Probably the maximum diameter of the neck was only about 10cm. 8 cm already means that the knife went most of the way through the neck. To stab right through the neck up to the handle of the knife, in one motion, with a knife as wide as the one in question, would have required considerable strength accurately applied. So it would be unlikely to find wounds much deeper than those actually found, given the confined space, and probably a struggle taking place. The wounds are reasonable for the knife and situation in question.

2. It's quite possible, even likely, that there was a second knife which has never been recovered.

The defence has a point that the large knife might not be the murder weapon. Note how they never mention all the small cuts on MK's body though. Would there be so many small cuts in a one on one violent struggle? I doubt that. Looks like she was held down for some time, and in my opinion threatened and cut with the large knife (that is why MK's DNA is only at the tip of the knife), and we just don't know who handled the smaller knife. They didn't need a knife to send RG to jail for 30 years.
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 6:20 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Quote:
You can lie without meaning? Yes you can. He made that Professor Carlo Caltagirone, a neurologist and psychiatrist, professor at the University of Tor Vergata, adviser to the defense of Amanda Knox. A situation of "severe stress" can lead - argued the expert - the "false memories" in a person and Amanda Knox after Meredith Kercher's murder and lengthy interrogations of which it was submitted may have been in this condition. The university professor said that he went past two or three hours with the student in Seattle in early March in the interview room of the prison huts. And he described as "typical of a young" the conditions of Knox by a cognitive point of view. "Amanda - said Caltagirone - is a person apparently available, but actually lives the stress inside of him. Be questioned at length in a foreign country without a good understanding of the situation in which it can lead to a situation of great stress. " In those days, however singular behavior Amanda held, if not strange. As the "split" performed in a corridor in front of some policemen. 'And' certainly incongruous behavior - argued Caltagirone - but also testifies to the profound stress that Amanda was living in those hours. " He was asked whether the use of "smoke" could have influenced the memory of a subject. "No impact on the cognitive - said the consultant - Smoke does not affect memory or the memories." Caltagirone has dealt with, albeit briefly, the "media texts" that is, that those affected by a strong emotion, something that happened in their city "unconscious desire to create false memories." Neither the prosecutor (with Giuliano Mignini and Manuela Comodi) nor the civil Kercher remained convinced of the hypothesis of a false memory of Amanda Knox linked to stress. Maresca has said: "The theory of false memory exists, but can not be applied so broadly. Is therefore not possible for so many days we can overcome what is reality. " None of knife wounds found on the neck of Meredith Kercher is compatible with the knife shown by the prosecution as the murder weapon under the medical-legal Walter Patumi, defense consultant Knox. Patumi has embraced the idea already presented by Professor Carlo Torre, always before the court of assizes. According to the professional Perugia - graduated in Bologna and who is involved in many major news items that occurred in Umbria - the wider and deeper wound, that death would have been caused by "more blows" inflicted "totally sinking the blade into the neck" . The medical-legal then noted that the lesion is 8 centimeters deep as the knife seized at the house of Raffaele Sollecito had a knife 17. Therefore - according to his reasoning - the assessment of incompatibility. Patumi also possible that the difference between the characteristics of the blade and the wound is due to an attempt to defend Kercher. Patumi then spoke about contamination in the analysis of the DNA traces found on the knife (of Knox near the handle and the tip of the victim), explaining that this is a contamination due to the fact that in the forensic laboratory were made many tests on the blood of the victim and that the blade of the knife, instead there was - they say the tools used by the Scientific - very little substance to be analyzed ( "too low, too low). According Patumi Stefanoni has not sought the DNA between the blade el'impugnatura which is the point where it settles more substance. On the subject of sexual violence has argued that neither the victim's vaginal area, nor on the lower limbs were found bruising. But as Professor Anna April (which he called "bright") claimed that there are no signs of sexual violence on the victim's body, takes note of this statement. As for the footprint of a heel of shoe on pillow, Patumi said (as Torre) that it was instead a "bloody bend" on a soft surface. Slip downside risks to the hearing on 2 October. The defenders seem willing to ask, before making requests of 507, ten days to collect his thoughts, re-read everything and be thorough reasons to the court of assizes. It appears that witnesses not be called (at most one), but on the advice, especially on the DNA, the requests will be particularly pressing


Google translation of this story at the CU

If I'm understanding the bolded section correctly, he's saying that "smoking dope" doesn't affect the memory. Well that's cleared that up then. Something I think many of us already knew.

So why did RS and AK say they went to a party with some of Raf's friends when they were first questioned, eh?

Mua-)

And why Raffaele, in the conversations you had with your father, can't you remember whether Amanda was with you or not?

Was this a sucker punch question from Mignini?
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Offline lisareik


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 6:47 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Thank you Nell for responding.

Again does anyone know the credentials of the specialists for hire by Dr. Sollecito?

Also what evidence is there that Ms. Knox is lying only or mostly at the behest of her mother?

I am interested in what drives the two accused psychologically.

Thank you interested readers.
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Offline Mutley


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:16 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Each time I see the latest media spin in Seattle and the blog sewage in drains like Perugia Shock there are two things that strike me.

Firstly the xenophobic propaganda especially from Seattle newspapers. A simple story line as all propaganda should be; no nuances, filled with dubious statements to provoke outrage, horror and wallet-opening in a fit of 'there but for the grace of God goes I' compassion. Perugia Shock appears to be the place for the attck dogs of the campaign, especially those with limited vocabulary dudes; hungry to savage any and all who do not repeat the 'innocent maiden in foreign hellhole fit-up' narrative. The latest reference to Filomena as 'Fuckomena' seems pretty typical of the mindset and lack of mind. An innocent circumstantial witness to the brutal murder of a flat mate who has not courted media attention is slandered and abused.

Secondly, how few people are listening. The comments from the usual suspects repeating the outrage narratives, the prosecutors NEED a conviction to save their skins, railroad, beatings, corrupt judicial system in banana republic etc are all there. The smattering of horror comments from folks whose IQ has failed to keep pace with their shoe size are there. My favourites from the papers and the blogs:
''President Obama: BRING AMANDA HOME!!!!!''
''Italians are xenophobic f***wits!''
''has anybody read the monster of florence? explains it'' (Come on Doug, was that you? I wish you would learn to use capitals.)

But oh so few of them! The media campaign has been in full swing for coming on two years and all it gets is a handfull of outraged citizens behind it. Excluding the family friend judges, hired help and needy bookwriters of course. Not much bang for the buck Mr Marriott. Must do better though you have left it rather late. Do you think your efforts will encurage or discourage future clients to beat a path to your door?
Perugia Shock just has its sewer rats squabbling amongst themselves and swapping their fleas in the delusion that the wrold is paying attention when in fact life goes on above ground without noticing their sewer below.

So I have to ask, for whose benefit is all this noise and smoke? Not for Amanda Knox certainly. Over two years we have been earnestly told that she would be released as soon as this thing came before a proper judge and the prosecutor would be locked up. Unwelcome reality: No bail.
As soon as it gets into court the prosecution evidence will be exposed as a sham. Unwelcome reality: The defence has had little to show.
None of the propaganda has had the slightest effect on the conduct or result of the trial, it may very well have bolstered AK into a false sense of confidence. It has failed to get a political campaign of any import going and was always going to fail on that score. I cannot help but think that the main benefit has been to give AK's family a narrative of WHY she is prison and to paint themselves as victims so they feel, receive and enjoy sympathy instead of revulsion and can avoid the need to ask searching questions of themselves.
Still the bookwrites are laughing. They get the choice of going for horror outrage narrative (Midnight Express with pizza) or 'Enduring Mystery' did she, didn't she enigma story.
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Offline bucketoftea


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:25 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Further to the mad stabbing woman photograph posted at the sewer, there was originally an even madder picture accompanying Ann Wise's article, but it disappeared. Does the ABC picture editor have an opinion about Amanda's guilt? LOL
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Offline jhansigirl


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:44 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

lisareik wrote:
Thank you Nell for responding.

Again does anyone know the credentials of the specialists for hire by Dr. Sollecito?

Also what evidence is there that Ms. Knox is lying only or mostly at the behest of her mother?

I am interested in what drives the two accused psychologically.

Thank you interested readers.


Lisareik

Carlo Caltagirone is Scientific Director of the Institute for Hospitalization and by the Medical Research Foundation Saint Lucia. He is also the President of the Italian Society of Neurogeriatria. Also, he is the author of over 140 publications in international peer-reviewed journals in the field of clinical neurology, clinical neuro-psychology and behavioral, neuro-rehabilitation.

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Offline Tiziano


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:59 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

For Lisareik:
Carlo Caltagirione is also a teacher at the University of Tor Vergata in Rome. He is a neurologist and psychiatrist.

For Brian:
You are right. Translation of relevant passage from Corriere dell'Umbria follows:
He (Caltagirone) was asked whether the use of "smoke" could have affected the memory of a subject. "No consequence on the cognitive level - the consultant declared - smoking does not weigh upon the memory or recollections".

Curriculum


Last edited by Tiziano on Sat Sep 26, 2009 9:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline bucketoftea


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 9:13 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Who or what is LMT and where did they get post mortem photographs of Meredith that they post online? Sick feck.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 9:35 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

bucketoftea wrote:
Who or what is LMT and where did they get post mortem photographs of Meredith that they post online? Sick feck.



He must be close to the FOA or the Sollecitos, since those photos came out of the case file and haven't been made public, at least not to my knowledge. Wherever he got them he's totally out of line. The Kerchers went to great lengths to have the trial investigate the autopsy and crime scene material behind closed doors, specifically so that pictures like that wouldn't be made public. Now, LMT's single handedly broadcasting them around the World. Frank is partly to blame for this since he started the trend of publishing various photos from Meredith's post mortem.

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Offline mistercrunch


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 9:41 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

fine wrote:
The Effects of STRESS
[...]
She correctly guessed that the assailant was male and black (how could she know?). [...]


Good point. I mean, lets say there are 5 % african-italian males in Perugia (i guess there aren´t, maybe someone could correct me) to make it simple. So Amanda had a 1-to-20-chance to hit the nail with saying the murderer was male and black. Thats very impressive.

So Amanda, could you please tell us: who killed Lady Di and Dodi? Please look into your crystal ball!!! The world wants to know

th-)
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 9:43 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

lisareik wrote:
To Michael from Switzerland,
What is your agenda?
Your crude demeaning of Ms. Knox's roommate is unwarranted and unfunny.

Amanda KNox is guilty and will be indicted.

Check your reactions to this and ask yourself Why is distorting the truth so important for you?



Hi Lisaik. Michael from Switzerland (we really need to find an abbreviation for this guy) betrays what the FOA really think of Meredith's housemates and friends. There is naked hatred and contempt for them and by extension also, Meredith. They can't stand Patrick either. It is in fact why I copied his post here, as I think it's important that the World is aware of the true colours of these people.

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Offline bucketoftea


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 9:45 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Thanks Michael :) It's really ugly out there. :(
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Offline lisareik


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 10:19 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Thansk Michael for the reassurance.

It is interesting to note that the defenders of and believers in Amanda Knox's innocence get so personal and venomous. Is it an alliance made up of only the persecuted, people who cannot bear the thought that this image of American wholesomeness is in reality the bearer of dark murderous impulses? Surely those of you reading this who fall into the FOA camp must see that you are in reality doing Ms. Knox a disservice and are guilty of gross distortion and selective processing of the evidence presented so far.

I fear for y our sanity when the verdict of guilt arrives.
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:46 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Sollecito’s PC internet connection on the night of his arrest.
(News on the murder were consulted)
On the night of the 5 and 6 november 2007, when Knox and Sollecito were arrested, Sollecito’s PC connects with the ANSA site, where news on Meredith’s murder was consulted. Antonio D’Ambrosio, a computer expert consultant for RS defense. He explained that human interaction results were at 22.22 hours on the 5 November and 09.24 the next day. That night Sollecito and Knox were at the police.
http://www.ansa.it/site/notizie/regioni ... 97453.html
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:52 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Jools wrote:
Sollecito’s PC internet connection on the night of his arrest.
(News on the murder were consulted)
On the night of the 5 and 6 november 2007, when Knox and Sollecito were arrested, Sollecito’s PC connects with the ANSA site, where news on Meredith’s murder was consulted. Antonio D’Ambrosio, a computer expert consultant for RS defense. He explained that human interaction results were at 22.22 hours on the 5 November and 09.24 the next day. That night Sollecito and Knox were at the police.
http://www.ansa.it/site/notizie/regioni ... 97453.html

So, if this is true, someone else had access to Sollecito's pc-and to his apartment. But I can't see the relevance, it could have been a member of the family. Did Dr Sollecito or Raffaele's sister arrive in Perugia just after the murder?

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Last edited by nicki on Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline martin


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:57 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
And judging from his title, Frank continues the now great tradition of infantalizing Ms. Knox. Speaking of Frank, his vigilance about questionable posts appears to have been shortlived. I saw a post from earlier today knocking the victim, Meredith Kercher, and now I see that "Michael from Switzerland" has weighed in there with an adorable nickname for Filomena.

Why did "Michael from Switzerland" insult Filomena? After all, it was Laura who discovered
the bruise/scratch/scar on amanda's neck. Who is this guy? What has she done to him?
I also think he mixed up momentum with kinetic energy, have to read his post again.
I am not interested in psychology, but i remember that a psychologist once told me that
the brain of a person who has been confronted with a terrible situation (like the victim
of a rape) could create a false memory or a mental blockade in order to protect the person's
state of mind. Is it possible that she is not lying intentionally, that she doesn't want
to be confronted with reality, that her consciousness can't stand the truth?
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

The deposition of witnesses cited by defense, prosecution and plaintiffs in the trial of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito in the murder of Meredith Kercher. The hearing before the Court of Assizes of Perugia was then postponed until 9 October at 15:30 (revoked the dates of 2 and 3) to examine requests for inclusion investigation of the parties. The last witness to testify today was the geneticist Sarah Gino, defense consultant Knox, who has again challenged the conclusions of the forensic analysis of biological traces. "DNA does not have wings - she said - but it flies. In a laboratory where we examine hundreds of samples, the contamination risk exists and must be taken into consideration."
http://unionesarda.ilsole24ore.com/Articoli/News/146752.


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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

nicki wrote:
Jools wrote:
Sollecito’s PC internet connection on the night of his arrest.
(News on the murder were consulted)
On the night of the 5 and 6 november 2007, when Knox and Sollecito were arrested, Sollecito’s PC connects with the ANSA site, where news on Meredith’s murder was consulted. Antonio D’Ambrosio, a computer expert consultant for RS defense. He explained that human interaction results were at 22.22 hours on the 5 November and 09.24 the next day. That night Sollecito and Knox were at the police.
http://www.ansa.it/site/notizie/regioni ... 97453.html

So, if this is true, someone else had access to Sollecito's pc-and his apartment. But I can't see the relevance, it could have been a memeber of the family. Did Dr Sollecito of RS sister arrive in perugia just after the murder?


Hi Nicki. Unless it's the defence' intent to use this to argue that Raffaele's PC clock was out of whack. But then, where does the data for this connection come from, Raffaele's PC or his ISP? If it's from his ISP then they can't argue anything is wrong with the internal PC clock, but if it's from his PC...

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:14 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Meredith, the PC connected to Sollecito
Internet the night of his arrest
Someone attempted murder on the news site of the loop


PERUGIA (26 September) - At one o'clock in the night between 5 and 6 November 2007, the arrest of Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox, the laptop of the couple in Puglia instead stayed home while he was already in police station connects with the site of the loop by consulting the reports of the murder of Meredith Kercher.

He argued this morning before the Court of Assizes of Perugia, Antonio D'Ambrosio, a computer consultant defense Sollecito. The expert explained that it had examined together with another consultant Michele Gigli, the computer and the data of the young Apulian Internet. According to D'Ambrosio would human interaction from 22:22, 5 November at 9:24 the next day.

That night, Knox and Sollecito were subjected to lengthy interrogations began in the last hours of 5 November and ended the next morning with their arrest. "That night I call arrived at police headquarters at around 21.40 - said one of its defenders, the lawyer Luca Maori - and never came back free." According to another consultant interaction with the site of the loop there was at 2:47 on 6 November. "No theories about who might have been to connect, but we have provided an objective fact," he added Maori. "The fact - the lawyer has argued - is that the interaction has lost some data." Defender of Sollecito explained that the laptop was seized in the house of his client at 9am on 6 November, after the formalization of the arrest.

D'Ambrosio has also talked about the night of the murder. According to the consultant on the pc reminder there was human interaction than 4 seconds to midnight and 58 minutes on 2 November, preceded at 21.10 with the shift of the file on the film "The fabulous world of Amelie."

It was concluded the examination of witnesses cited by the prosecution. The hearing before the Court of Assizes of Perugia was then postponed until 9 October at 15:30 (revoked the dates of 2 and 3) to examine requests for inclusion investigation of the parties. The last witness to testify today was the geneticist Sarah Gino, defense consultant Knox, who has again challenged the conclusions of the forensic analysis of biological traces. "The DNA does not have wings - he said - but it flies. In a laboratory where we examine hundreds of samples, the risk of contamination exists and must be taken into consideration. "



IL MESSAGGERO

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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

martin wrote:
--- snip ---
Why did "Michael from Switzerland" insult Filomena?
--- snap ---


There is a very interesting comment from Peter Quennell regarding Filomena (you can find the original here: http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php ... real_flop/)

Here is the reported response of Meredith’s roommate Filomena to Knox on the stand. The translation is by Kermit.

It is from the major Italian paper Corriere in a report by the tough journalist Fiorenza Sarzanini who wrote a book on the case.

*******

She (Amanda) doesn’t know that amongst the public is sitting Filomena Romanelli, her flatmate, the young woman who had agreed to lease to her one of the rooms of the cottage in Via della Pergola. They were friends, Amanda in fact called Filomena on the morning of 2 November 2007 when “I returned home and found the door open and everything seemed very strange because there was blood on the sink, on the bathmat, and Meredith’s room was locked” .

Now, however, they appear distant, completely separate from each other. Filomena appears annoyed to hear the American reconstruct her movements of that day and above all her alibi for the previous night, that of the crime. “She’s incoherent, she continues to change versions,” bursts out Filomena, convinced that nobody has recognized her.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 06/14/09 at 12:47 PM | #


I think that someone who calls Filomena names might be someone who has been angered by her behaviour, by her "not-straight-away-believing in Amanda's innocence". Long story short: I believe the author of the comment is possibly someone directly related to Amanda, maybe family, maybe a stepfather. In the latter case the language would fit the author perfectly. s-((
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Michael wrote:
nicki wrote:
Jools wrote:
Sollecito’s PC internet connection on the night of his arrest.
(News on the murder were consulted)
On the night of the 5 and 6 november 2007, when Knox and Sollecito were arrested, Sollecito’s PC connects with the ANSA site, where news on Meredith’s murder was consulted. Antonio D’Ambrosio, a computer expert consultant for RS defense. He explained that human interaction results were at 22.22 hours on the 5 November and 09.24 the next day. That night Sollecito and Knox were at the police.
http://www.ansa.it/site/notizie/regioni ... 97453.html

So, if this is true, someone else had access to Sollecito's pc-and his apartment. But I can't see the relevance, it could have been a memeber of the family. Did Dr Sollecito of RS sister arrive in perugia just after the murder?


Hi Nicki. Unless it's the defence' intent to use this to argue that Raffaele's PC clock was out of whack. But then, where does the data for this connection come from, Raffaele's PC or his ISP? If it's from his ISP then they can't argue anything is wrong with the internal PC clock, but if it's from his PC...

From AGI:http://tinyurl.com/yegmblb
This is what Luca Maori, RS defense says about that human interaction...
"No theories about who may have been interacting on the PC" by one of Sollecito's lawyers, the lawyer Luca Maori, who recalled how “Raffaele Sollecito that night, from 21:40 was in the police station where he never left except to go to jail the next morning.”
According to Sollecito’s defense:

“this interaction, which occurred on the computer, could have led to cancellation of previous data.”
co-)
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Jools wrote:
Michael wrote:
nicki wrote:
Jools wrote:
Sollecito’s PC internet connection on the night of his arrest.
(News on the murder were consulted)
On the night of the 5 and 6 november 2007, when Knox and Sollecito were arrested, Sollecito’s PC connects with the ANSA site, where news on Meredith’s murder was consulted. Antonio D’Ambrosio, a computer expert consultant for RS defense. He explained that human interaction results were at 22.22 hours on the 5 November and 09.24 the next day. That night Sollecito and Knox were at the police.
http://www.ansa.it/site/notizie/regioni ... 97453.html

So, if this is true, someone else had access to Sollecito's pc-and his apartment. But I can't see the relevance, it could have been a memeber of the family. Did Dr Sollecito of RS sister arrive in perugia just after the murder?


Hi Nicki. Unless it's the defence' intent to use this to argue that Raffaele's PC clock was out of whack. But then, where does the data for this connection come from, Raffaele's PC or his ISP? If it's from his ISP then they can't argue anything is wrong with the internal PC clock, but if it's from his PC...

From AGI:
This is what Luca Maori, RS defense says about that human interaction...
"No theories about who may have been interacting on the PC" by one of Sollecito's lawyers, the lawyer Luca Maori, who recalled how “Raffaele Sollecito that night, from 21:40 was in the police station where he never left except to go to jail the next morning.”
According to Sollecito’s defense:

“this interaction, which occurred on the computer, could have led to cancellation of previous data.”
co-)



I see, so the defence are deliberately trying to imply that someone went into Sollecito's apartment while he was down the police station and maliciously removed exculpatory data off his machine??? That's what it sounds like in the subtext.

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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Jools wrote:
--- snip ---
According to Sollecito’s defense:
“this interaction, which occurred on the computer, could have led to cancellation of previous data.”
co-)
--- snap ---


Adventurous theories - as usual. Even if we suspect that to be true, how does that makes the DNA on the bra clasp go away? It doesn't look good, computers aside.
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Quote:
The computer consultant appointed by defending Raffaele Sollecito tried to show that during the time of the death of Meredith Kercher the accused was at his house and was using his laptop to watch a movie on DVD. Dunning between 9.30 and 23 would have seen a film "The Wonderful World of Amelie" in the company of Amanda Knox. The expert analyzed the computer and the data of the young Pugliese Internet....


Google translation from APCOM

Combined with the other testimony relating to the 5/6th they are trying to prove that Raffaele's pc clock timing can't be relied on.

I think they are trying to prove it was running 2/3 hours slow.

If it was slow all the activity 5/6th could be attributed to the police who by that stage could well have been round at Raffaele's.

If it was slow on the 1st, Amelie would have been watched much later than the time shown by the PC.

But just cos it was slow on the 5/6th doesn't mean it was slow on the 1st.

The police have all the ISP records. I don't think this is going anywhere
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Nell wrote:
Jools wrote:
--- snip ---
According to Sollecito’s defense:
“this interaction, which occurred on the computer, could have led to cancellation of previous data.”
co-)
--- snap ---


Adventurous theories - as usual. Even if we suspect that to be true, how does that makes the DNA on the bra clasp go away? It doesn't look good, computers aside.



Hi Nell. It's more then an 'adventurous theory' the defence are posing here, it's a veiled accusation against the ILE.

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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

martin wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
And judging from his title, Frank continues the now great tradition of infantalizing Ms. Knox. Speaking of Frank, his vigilance about questionable posts appears to have been shortlived. I saw a post from earlier today knocking the victim, Meredith Kercher, and now I see that "Michael from Switzerland" has weighed in there with an adorable nickname for Filomena.

Why did "Michael from Switzerland" insult Filomena? After all, it was Laura who discovered
the bruise/scratch/scar on amanda's neck. Who is this guy? What has she done to him?
I also think he mixed up momentum with kinetic energy, have to read his post again.
I am not interested in psychology, but i remember that a psychologist once told me that
the brain of a person who has been confronted with a terrible situation (like the victim
of a rape) could create a false memory or a mental blockade in order to protect the person's
state of mind. Is it possible that she is not lying intentionally, that she doesn't want
to be confronted with reality, that her consciousness can't stand the truth?

Martin,
Indeed it is possible. The Cogne murderer is a good example. My opinion is that Ms Franzoni very likely doesn't remember killing her own son-but the jury had no doubt that she was guilty, so she was sentenced to 30 years, then reduced to 16.Her family also started an aggressive PR campaign, although they were so smart not to slander the prosecutors nor the entire Italian judicial system. Franzoni was on many TV shows, and she was repeatedly interviewed by "Oggi" and "Gente", since she was granted freedom-not house arrest- during the trial. But Ms Franzoni didn't supply phony alibis -although she did finger her neighbors, differently from Knox, she didn't claim to have witnessed the crime-.The impression I got is that she was honest when claiming her innocence, in the sense that she truly doesn't remember having committed the crime. However, she has sharp memories of what she did before and after the murder.

Incidentally,Prof Torre was one of the defense experts in both the Cogne and the Erba murder cases. In the first case he was claiming that Ms Franzoni 's bloodied pajamas had been worn not by her, but by the true murderer, i.e. the murderer breaks in while Ms Franzoni is taking her other son to the bus stop,wears her pajamas, kills the baby, take the pajama off and runs away-all in a time frame of 10 minutes-. In the Erba murder case, Torre attacked DNA and autopsy data.Unfortunately for the murderous couple, there was an eye witness-the only survivor of the attack-and the jury preferred to believe his testimony rather than Torre 's theories. They were both sentenced to life in prison.

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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Quote:
I see, so the defence are deliberately trying to imply that someone went into Sollecito's apartment while he was down the police station and maliciously removed exculpatory data off his machine??? That's what it sounds like in the subtext.


Well, somehow defense they have to explained the fact that no matter how many computer experts they hired they still could not find traces of RS's alibi. He was not on the computer on the night of the murder!

And this is the best excuse they can come up with? Human interaction on the 5th cancelled his alibi?
d-)) d-))
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Brian S. wrote:
Quote:
The computer consultant appointed by defending Raffaele Sollecito tried to show that during the time of the death of Meredith Kercher the accused was at his house and was using his laptop to watch a movie on DVD. Dunning between 9.30 and 23 would have seen a film "The Wonderful World of Amelie" in the company of Amanda Knox. The expert analyzed the computer and the data of the young Pugliese Internet....


Google translation from APCOM

Combined with the other testimony relating to the 5/6th they are trying to prove that Raffaele's pc clock timing can't be relied on.

I think they are trying to prove it was running 2/3 hours slow.

If it was slow all the activity 5/6th could be attributed to the police who by that stage could well have been round at Raffaele's.

If it was slow on the 1st, Amelie would have been watched much later than the time shown by the PC.

But just cos it was slow on the 5/6th doesn't mean it was slow on the 1st.

The police have all the ISP records. I don't think this is going anywhere



Hi Brian. It isn't the PC clock that's running slow, it's Amanda. According to her testimony on the stand they watched Amelie, then after the film had finished they had dinner. While they were eating dinner Popovic arrived for the second time that evening, to cancel her lift to the station. We know Popovic arrived at 20:30 - 20:45. Therefore, even if we allow them only 10 minutes to have cunjoured up a meal, served it and started eating it, Amelie was watched and ended well before 20:45. So what, did they then watch Amelie twice...on the same evening?

But, looking at what Jools posted I don't think the expert is arguing about the clock so much. He's infering that someone used Raf's laptop while Raf was down the police station and that activity could have deleted data...i.e. data from the evening of the 1st that would have shown that Raffaele had indeed been on his computer all evening. Or, perhaps they're trying to argue 'both' data removal and a skewed computer clock. Either way, they're being cheeky.

But I agree, this isn't going anywhere.

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Offline lisareik


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

It sounds like "false memories" do not apply in this case.
Ms. Knox lied and fingred an innocent man; also the only black Italian man of her acquaintance, except for Mr. Guede. She repeatedly changed her alibi for that night; had access to information about Meredith's death and body positioning that only one who had been present at the crime scene could know; reacted visibly and viscerally when brought back to the house (covering her ears and shaking). All her "thinking she rememered" or "trying to remember as best as she could" or other expiating notions, are not the actions of one stricken with anmensia by the trauma; rather they are the actions of a guilty murderer sticking to her script.

Foresics alone could indict her I would think.

r
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Offline martin


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

nicki wrote:
Incidentally,Prof Torre was one of the defense experts in both the Cogne and the Erba murder cases. In the first case he was claiming that Ms Franzoni 's bloodied pajamas had been worn not by her, but by the true murderer, i.e. the murderer breaks in while Ms Franzoni is taking her other son to the bus stop,wears her pajamas, kills the baby, take the pajama off and runs away-all in a time frame of 10 minutes-. In the Erba murder case, Torre attacked DNA and autopsy data.Unfortunately for the murderous couple, there was an eye witness-the only survivor of the attack-and the jury preferred to believe his testimony rather than Torre 's theories. They were both sentenced to life in prison.

So, this Prof Torre is some kind of "scientific mercenary"?
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

martin wrote:
nicki wrote:
Incidentally,Prof Torre was one of the defense experts in both the Cogne and the Erba murder cases. In the first case he was claiming that Ms Franzoni 's bloodied pajamas had been worn not by her, but by the true murderer, i.e. the murderer breaks in while Ms Franzoni is taking her other son to the bus stop,wears her pajamas, kills the baby, take the pajama off and runs away-all in a time frame of 10 minutes-. In the Erba murder case, Torre attacked DNA and autopsy data.Unfortunately for the murderous couple, there was an eye witness-the only survivor of the attack-and the jury preferred to believe his testimony rather than Torre 's theories. They were both sentenced to life in prison.

So, this Prof Torre is some kind of "scientific mercenary"?



Exactly :) A gun for hire.

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Offline GreenWyvern


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 2:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

An article from Fox News.

Next week, apparently, "retired police forensic officer Vincenzo Pasquali will use a video and ballistic measurements to tell the court the window was smashed from the outside and was not simulated."

Will the video and ballistic measurements show how the glass from jumped on top of the clothing?

Window broken, intruder trashes room, glass fragments (unlike DNA) grow wings and fly on top. Should be an interesting video. Will the glass fragments dance around the room to Disney music?

mul-)
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Offline stint7


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 3:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Quote:
You wonder how Dr. Sollecito does it, pull these dubious witnesses out of a magic hat.


But remember Pappa's self expressed strategy and reassurance statement to Raffy...
"Money can make water run uphill
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 3:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

GreenWyvern wrote:
An article from Fox News.

Next week, apparently, "retired police forensic officer Vincenzo Pasquali will use a video and ballistic measurements to tell the court the window was smashed from the outside and was not simulated."

Will the video and ballistic measurements show how the glass from jumped on top of the clothing?

Window broken, intruder trashes room, glass fragments (unlike DNA) grow wings and fly on top. Should be an interesting video. Will the glass fragments dance around the room to Disney music?

mul-)

That was several months ago.
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Offline mojo


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 3:47 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

do we know the exact nature of this "interaction" on his account?? and is it actually on HIS computer or his account?

this is a college town, if someone uses a wi-fi connection into your account, how is it registered?? i'm no expert, but this latest claim seems very odd.
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Offline The 411


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 3:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Nell wrote:
martin wrote:
--- snip ---
Why did "Michael from Switzerland" insult Filomena?
--- snap ---


I think that someone who calls Filomena names might be someone who has been angered by her behaviour, by her "not-straight-away-believing in Amanda's innocence". Long story short: I believe the author of the comment is possibly someone directly related to Amanda, maybe family, maybe a stepfather. In the latter case the language would fit the author perfectly. s-((


G'day, Nell:
Yes, indeed!!!
It's so painfully obvious who's writing these things, isn't it?
Chris Mellas (and the FOAK ilk) shake their frustrated little fists, stamp their enraged feet, screech prepubescent obscenities. And, all for naught.

And those pathetic tantrums and demonstrations of rage are directed to everyone and anyone who doesn't support their desperately-held fictions about AK and RS.

Can't help but wonder why there is not --and has never been-- a FOAK branch in Perugia ....not one single person who stands up to support Amanda Knox's innocence.....in the city where the she lived.

I guess if such a group actually existed, it might be called. . .

The "FOAK-UP" (Friends of Amanda Knox, United in Perugia). br-)) br-))
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Offline petafly


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 3:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Michael wrote:
martin wrote:
So, this Prof Torre is some kind of "scientific mercenary"?



Exactly :) A gun for hire.

You can find them in every corners these days...

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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 5:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

"Antonio D'Ambrosio testified that someone had used Sollecito's computer at home twice to read ANSA's news about the slaying on the Internet, Italian news reports said.

The defense contended that this interaction with the computer had caused the loss of some data on the computer a few days earlier, SKY TG24 TV reported." (The Associated Press).

This is explanation is so ridiculously far-fetched, I'm surprised Sollecito's computer expert managed to keep a straight face whilst testifying in court. I wonder how much he was paid to come up with this nonsense. Despite Bongiorno's claims to the contrary, they were unable to offer any evidence that Sollecito used his computer from 9.10pm to 5.32am.

The geneticist Sara Gino got paid for basically saying that contamination is theoretically possible in a laboratory. I noticed she didn't say that it wasn't Meredith's DNA on the blade of the double DNA knife.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 5:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Hi TM. I've yet to see any members of the defence offer a 'source' for this 'contamination'. It's not enough to simply say 'Oh, well it probably happened somewhere in the lab'. They have to offer a culprit. Where exactly is Meredith's and 'only' Meredith's DNA supposed to have come from? Just floating around the lab? Well then, how is it that nobody 'else's' DNA was just 'floating' around the lab? And that includes that of all the lab technicians, and everyone else in history that had been tested in any way in that laboratory. Stefanoni used a different machine to that which had been used to test items from the cottage. The only DNA in sight is Amanda's, on the handle, so therefore, if 'anyone's' DNA should have contaminated the blade it should have been either Amanda's, Stefanoni's (who actually did the test) or that of the policeman that actually collected and bagged the knife, or Raffaele's who was actually the owner. Yet, it came up for none of those people, only Meredith. How is that remotely possible? What is the statistical probability?


Petafly -

I LOVE that photo!!! :)

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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 5:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Michael wrote:
"He's infering that someone used Raf's laptop while Raf was down the police station and that activity could have deleted data...i.e. data from the evening of the 1st that would have shown that Raffaele had indeed been on his computer all evening."

But any computer uses after the murder would do for this argument, not necessarily only those when Raffaele was at the police.
For example Amanda probably wrote the Nov 4 email on that machine, too.
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Offline Professor Snape


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 5:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Mutley wrote:
Each time I see the latest media spin in Seattle and the blog sewage in drains like Perugia Shock there are two things that strike me.

Firstly the xenophobic propaganda especially from Seattle newspapers. A simple story line as all propaganda should be; no nuances, filled with dubious statements to provoke outrage, horror and wallet-opening in a fit of 'there but for the grace of God goes I' compassion. Perugia Shock appears to be the place for the attck dogs of the campaign, especially those with limited vocabulary dudes; hungry to savage any and all who do not repeat the 'innocent maiden in foreign hellhole fit-up' narrative. The latest reference to Filomena as 'Fuckomena' seems pretty typical of the mindset and lack of mind. An innocent circumstantial witness to the brutal murder of a flat mate who has not courted media attention is slandered and abused.

Secondly, how few people are listening. The comments from the usual suspects repeating the outrage narratives, the prosecutors NEED a conviction to save their skins, railroad, beatings, corrupt judicial system in banana republic etc are all there. The smattering of horror comments from folks whose IQ has failed to keep pace with their shoe size are there. My favourites from the papers and the blogs:
''President Obama: BRING AMANDA HOME!!!!!''
''Italians are xenophobic f***wits!''
''has anybody read the monster of florence? explains it'' (Come on Doug, was that you? I wish you would learn to use capitals.)

But oh so few of them! The media campaign has been in full swing for coming on two years and all it gets is a handfull of outraged citizens behind it. Excluding the family friend judges, hired help and needy bookwriters of course. Not much bang for the buck Mr Marriott. Must do better though you have left it rather late. Do you think your efforts will encurage or discourage future clients to beat a path to your door?
Perugia Shock just has its sewer rats squabbling amongst themselves and swapping their fleas in the delusion that the wrold is paying attention when in fact life goes on above ground without noticing their sewer below.

So I have to ask, for whose benefit is all this noise and smoke? Not for Amanda Knox certainly. Over two years we have been earnestly told that she would be released as soon as this thing came before a proper judge and the prosecutor would be locked up. Unwelcome reality: No bail.
As soon as it gets into court the prosecution evidence will be exposed as a sham. Unwelcome reality: The defence has had little to show.
None of the propaganda has had the slightest effect on the conduct or result of the trial, it may very well have bolstered AK into a false sense of confidence. It has failed to get a political campaign of any import going and was always going to fail on that score. I cannot help but think that the main benefit has been to give AK's family a narrative of WHY she is prison and to paint themselves as victims so they feel, receive and enjoy sympathy instead of revulsion and can avoid the need to ask searching questions of themselves.
Still the bookwrites are laughing. They get the choice of going for horror outrage narrative (Midnight Express with pizza) or 'Enduring Mystery' did she, didn't she enigma story.

It would be my humble guess someone as to the likes of Doug Preston saw the Knox/Mellas circus as a perfect means to boost marketing efforts for the sequel to his first piss poor book. His challenge to them along with money and promises a plenty were slammed down on their simulated walnut coffee table. This anticipated frenzy was let loose and these stupid hound dogs were released on Mignini. It does not take but one brain cell to figure out how this very desperate and utterly dumb clan would react given these enticing circumstances.

IMHO this does not have anything to do with the guilt of Amanda Knox. I think it has everything to do with someone flaunting a whole lot of money in front of them. Pay off the bills; provide the girls school money, acting lessons and make up they won’t have to share; send Edda to the casino and buy her a new washer and dryer so she can pocket her laundry allowance and drink at home; first class tickets to a lovely and sought after foreign destination, the envy of the neighborhood; popularity as never to be imagined in book deals and possible parts in movies – and an attorney and PR firm to coach them through the entire process.

Amanda? Who gives a rip? All they have to do is be themselves – vicious, ugly, and revolting and never, ever, lead on even with one expression that Amanda is guilty – or the whole deal is off! This opportunity is justifiable because it is truly in Amanda’s best interest. Desperate people go to desperate measures when all hell breaks loose. They usually go along in life shuffling their feet and hoping for that big break by buying lottery tickets. They drink Keystone beer and they never miss the reruns of “American Beauty.” They think they have “arrived” when they own a 1970 “Street Performance” LeMans or a gas guzzling obnoxious “wish-I-were-a-big-boy” truck adorned with mud flaps sporting naked chrome girls.

It’s easy to fall for the snare when faced with endless money you only dreamed would come true sitting at a blackjack table. It’s easy to just “be yourself!” when baited with the assurance everyone will buy your trip. It’s easy to see the puzzle pieces fall into place when the motive is pure fame and luxury.

The truly difficult part is witnessing the extremely low level these people have gone to justify their stand all in the name of attempting to prove the innocence of a murderer. When they crossed the line of bashing Meredith or dragging her innocent memory though the gates of hell they revealed the ugliest of human nature to all of us and what, for a cause that was not even their own? We have to ask ourselves to identify all of the criminals in this case because I believe there are many.

Meredith should never have lost her life. I wish the people who continue to torment her could find it in their heart to give her peace. r-((

Justice is coming and it's just around the corner.

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Last edited by Professor Snape on Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 5:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Hi Michael,

What is the statistical probability of Knox's and Sollecito's DNA being transported by dust and landing in a microscopic groove on the double DNA knife and on Meredith's tiny bra clasp? Surely, it must be millions to one. Bear in mind that there have been no instances of contamination in Dr. Stefanoni's labatory for at least the last seven years.

Alberto Intini, the head of the Italian police forensic science unit, stated that unless contamination has been proved, it does not exist. None of the defence's forensic experts have proved that there was any contamination. They have merely argued that contamination is theoretically possible.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 6:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

The Machine wrote:
Hi Michael,

What is the statistical probability of Knox's and Sollecito's DNA being transported by dust and landing in a microscopic groove on the double DNA knife and on Meredith's tiny bra clasp? Surely, it must be millions to one. Bear in mind that there have been no instances of contamination in Dr. Stefanoni's labatory for at least the last seven years.

Alberto Intini, the head of the Italian police forensic science unit, stated that unless contamination has been proved, it does not exist. None of the defence's forensic experts have proved that there was any contamination. They have merely argued that contamination is theoretically possible.


The defence are in effect demanding the scientifica prove a negative. That is the essence of their defence, which is no defence at all.

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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 7:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Il Messaggero questions Patrick Lumumba and his lawyer Carlo Pacelli:
Lawyer Pacelli:
“She has tried to derailed the investigation to cover for herself and the others”
"From the testimony of Professor Carlo Caltagirone comes out a profile of a girl sane mind, normal and lucid."

Lawyer Pacelli what do you think of the examination of the witness and the report filed?
“I think the report he filed is entirely academic.”

And your position?
“Is been strengthened, and our belief is proven that Amanda lies and slanders."

Is there a particular reason why Amanda maintained that the murderer was Patrick?
"She accused my client, knowing him innocent, to deflect inquiries from other parties, obviously including herself."

-Beside Pacelli, is also Lumumba that has follow the questioning and cross-examination without missing a beat, affected by the outcome of the trial because of dissatisfaction for what compensation he’s received so far for the very grave loss he suffered.-

Lumumba:
"I was under stress without accusing"
"I also was interrogated and have been in prison but I’ve never set up anybody in the middle of this."

How you think Amanda appeared in the words of Professor Caltagirone?
"I never thought that Amanda was under stress, it is not possible, I can not believe."

You knew her well?
"Our relationship was just work, but as I had her closer, her ways of being, from her attitudes I can not imagine that a girl like her could suffer stress, though in a situation so serious, but even under stress it cannot be possible to say things that are not correct”

Were you in the police station for the questioning?
"No, I was arrested by the police. However at the police station were many others. I think of my position, in those days we were all in the same situation, same questions, same fears, same uncertainties, but none of us has accused others.”

Currently, what is your business?
"After prison, once released, I had many difficulties to resume my work in the pub Le Chic, which I had to close. I am without a job and I have a family to support. For now I'm a musician and compose."
http://tinyurl.com/ya9wx48
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Offline indie


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 7:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Mutley wrote:
I cannot help but think that the main benefit has been to give AK's family a narrative of WHY she is prison and to paint themselves as victims so they feel, receive and enjoy sympathy instead of revulsion and can avoid the need to ask searching questions of themselves.



This thought by Mutley is IMO precisely why Amanda's family has traveled the path they have taken, they cannot and will not face reality. Their behavior certainly shines a light on Amanda's upbringing. After the guilty verdict they can proceed in life as victims. They will gladly take on their martyr roles as they face the public, workplace, friends and family. Poor Amanda's family, the unjust Italian legal system destroyed their once happy All-American life. They have left no room for Amanda to come clean with the truth. She must keep up the charade too.
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Offline Itchy Brother


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

bolint wrote:
Michael wrote:
"He's infering that someone used Raf's laptop while Raf was down the police station and that activity could have deleted data...i.e. data from the evening of the 1st that would have shown that Raffaele had indeed been on his computer all evening."

But any computer uses after the murder would do for this argument, not necessarily only those when Raffaele was at the police. For example Amanda probably wrote the Nov 4 email on that machine, too.


So the implication is that this alleged activity on the 5th/6th was malicious. I'm sorry, but this is just staggeringly implausable. Anyone who is clever enough to erase all traces of activity for a certain time period would certainly be clever enough to avoid leaving signs of their own activity on the 5th/6th.

There are event logs from any number of hardware devices and software processes, numerous files with timestamps, and potentially external network logs that would have to be dealt with. Talk about grasping at straws. They are just tossing out everything including the kitchen sink (and mop) in the hope that something raises a shawdow of doubt in the jurors. It is not going to work.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

bolint wrote:
Michael wrote:
"He's infering that someone used Raf's laptop while Raf was down the police station and that activity could have deleted data...i.e. data from the evening of the 1st that would have shown that Raffaele had indeed been on his computer all evening."

But any computer uses after the murder would do for this argument, not necessarily only those when Raffaele was at the police.
For example Amanda probably wrote the Nov 4 email on that machine, too.


Exactly Bolint. We know Raffaele or Amanda used his computer on the morning of the 2nd for example. Did he never use it at any time on the 3rd, 4th or day of the 5th? Of course he did, So, why are the defence arguing that exclusively, activity on the night of the 5th was the specific usage that deleted data? They offered no evidence to support that, other then merely that in their opinion his computer was 'used'. But in any case, that's what I mean by subtext to their argument. They are trying to imply that while kept occupied down the police station, police came into Raffaele's apartment, started his computer, connected to the Net and then systematically deleted all his user activity from the night of the 2nd in order to fit him up. If that's 'not' what they are trying to imply, then why not also mention all the other computer usage that 'may' have occurred on his machine between the 1st and evening of the 5th and suggest that may have played some part in data removal? As I said, this is a veiled accusation, they're pointing fingers. Yet, they've provided nothing from the computer to support it (or from anywhere else).

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Itchy Brother wrote:
So the implication is that this alleged activity on the 5th/6th was malicious. I'm sorry, but this is just staggeringly implausable. Anyone who is clever enough to erase all traces of activity for a certain time period would certainly be clever enough to avoid leaving signs of their own activity on the 5th/6th.


They wouldn't connect to the Internet for a start, which would leave a record. Why would they need to do that anyway just to erase local data?

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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 9:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 - ABC / Telegraph   

Amanda Knox Defense Expert Pushes DNA Errors in Murder Trial

ABC

While police experts have testified that there was no human interaction on Sollecito's computer after 9:10 p.m. Nov. 1, 2007, when Sollecito finished watching the movie "Amelie" until the following morning at 5:42 a.m., computer technician Antonio D'Ambrosio said that an examination of a copy of Sollecito's hard drive showed that his computer connected with a provider for four seconds at 00:58 -- two-minutes before 1 a.m. -- Nov. 2.

D'Ambrosio confirmed that he found no other sign of human interaction with the computer after that until 5:42 a.m. when an application on the computer crashed. He did maintain, however, that there were indications that Sollecito might have watched a second film on his computer that night, since he had downloaded different copies of "Stardust" from the Internet, eventually saving just one.

Neither Sollecito nor Knox have ever mentioned watching "Stardust."


Meredith Kercher trial evidence completed


Final witnesses in the long-running Meredith Kercher murder trial have been heard but a verdict is still not likely before the New Year.

Nick Pisa for The Telegraph
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Offline Tiziano


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 10:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

This article from Il Messaggero has been commented on by others, but I thought that it was worth translating in full, as this is the only report I have so far read that talks about the two points in bold:
Mignini's scepticism and the failure of the expert to comment on Knox's extreme reaction on being shown the knives.

Caltagirone

From Il Messaggero Saturday 26th September, 2009.

By ITALO CARMIGNANI and VANNA UGOLINI

A person put under a situation of extreme stress can be induced to formulate false memories and this could also have happened in the case of Amanda Knox, who was in a foreign country, whose flatmate had been killed and who was questioned at length by the police. This is the opinion of Carlo Caltagirone, consultant for the defence of the young American, who was heard yesterday in the course of the trial before the Court of the Assizes of Perugia for the murder of Meredith Kercher, the English student killed on the night of November 1st, 2007 in the cottage in Via della Pergola at Perugia.
Caltagirone explained that he had had a meeting of about three hours with Amanda at the prison, at the end of which he deemed her cognitive condition to be "very good" and "typical of a young girl". The girl "was subjected to interrogation for about 42 hours" between November 2nd and November 6th, 2007. It was in fact on the night between November 5th and 6th two years ago that Knox indicated Patrick Lumumba as the killer of Meredith Kercher.

For Caltagirone there is "scientific proof" which supports this. According to the neurologist, in the statement written by Amanda before she ended up in prison, she tells of her confused state, taking back in part what she had said, and speaking of having had "flashes" which she cannot relate to reality or her imagination, and all this is truly indicative of the state of stress to which the girl had been subjected.

This explanation did not convince Prosecutor Giuliano Mignini, who asked whether the fact that she knew she was lying could have been the stress causing factor. According to the neurologist the overall situation had more influence than the effort of telling lies. Caltagirone did not comment on Amanda's attitude two days after the murder when she returned to the crime house with the police to inspect the knives and suddenly started to cry, but he explained on the other hand, that "doing cartwheels and the splits" in the entrance of the police station, which was absolutely inappropriate behaviour, was in fact an indication of the state of stress she was under.

The expert Walter Patumi, a forensic medicine specialist, confirmed what had been claimed by previous experts for the accused, adding another criticism about the way the scientific branch had conducted the investigations: "In order to save 70 euros for the kit, the groove of the handle, at the intersection with the blade, which is the place where you can find the greatest amount of DNA, was not analysed".
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 10:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 - ABC / Telegraph   

guermantes wrote:
Amanda Knox Defense Expert Pushes DNA Errors in Murder Trial

ABC

While police experts have testified that there was no human interaction on Sollecito's computer after 9:10 p.m. Nov. 1, 2007, when Sollecito finished watching the movie "Amelie" until the following morning at 5:42 a.m., computer technician Antonio D'Ambrosio said that an examination of a copy of Sollecito's hard drive showed that his computer connected with a provider for four seconds at 00:58 -- two-minutes before 1 a.m. -- Nov. 2.

D'Ambrosio confirmed that he found no other sign of human interaction with the computer after that until 5:42 a.m. when an application on the computer crashed. He did maintain, however, that there were indications that Sollecito might have watched a second film on his computer that night, since he had downloaded different copies of "Stardust" from the Internet, eventually saving just one.

Neither Sollecito nor Knox have ever mentioned watching "Stardust."


Meredith Kercher trial evidence completed



Final witnesses in the long-running Meredith Kercher murder trial have been heard but a verdict is still not likely before the New Year.

Nick Pisa for The Telegraph




Thanks Guermantes. Connected for four seconds? It sounds to me like Raffaele had a program on his computer set to check for automatic updates. That requires no human interaction for as it says, it's automatic. I note the computer experts opted to completely ignore the I/O record.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 10:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

From Andrea Vogt's report for the Seattle PI:

Specifically, a computer engineer who analyzed Sollecito's computer and Internet provider records testified that his review indicated someone navigated on Sollecito's computer while he and Knox were being questioned by police. Specifically, the computer revealed that the movie "Stardust" had been downloaded, and then a few hours later, at 1 a.m. and 2:47 a.m., someone surfed the Web twice and viewed a story about Kercher's killing on the Italian wire service news agency ANSA.

"We aren't saying who it was, but you can imagine," said Sollecito's attorney, Luca Maori during a break in the trial, noting that Sollecito left his computer at home and went into police headquarters 21:40 p.m. on November 5 for questioning, leaving the keys to his house with police. He has been in jail ever since.

The suggestion, albeit unspoken, that police may have snooped on Sollecito's computer while he was being questioned and not yet a suspect is potentially damaging development for two reasons.

First, defense lawyers claim that the computer interactions while he was at police headquarters may have canceled out important data showing the last known access to files that could have proven he was on his computer the night of the killing. And second, it further damages the credibility of investigators, who have been under increasing scrutiny since the defense began presenting its case.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Told you it was an accusation. 5 minutes after I saw the first report from the day I thought 'Hang on a minute, look where they're going with this'. I can't believe they've got the balls to go there. Can you imagine how this can backfire?

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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Quote:
"We aren't saying who it was, but you can imagine," said Sollecito's attorney, Luca Maori during a break in the trial, noting that Sollecito left his computer at home and went into police headquarters 21:40 p.m. on November 5 for questioning, leaving the keys to his house with police. He has been in jail ever since.


Andrea Vogt in her article tells the same as most of the Italian press reports, that Maori made that comment to journalist during a break.
I doubt very much that RS lawyer said anything of the sort ("We aren't saying who it was, but you can imagine") in court. Both defenses are known to say things to journalist during the brakes that they don't necessarily bring up at trial.
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Tiziano wrote:
This article from Il Messaggero has been commented on by others, but I thought that it was worth translating in full, as this is the only report I have so far read that talks about the two points in bold:
Mignini's scepticism and the failure of the expert to comment on Knox's extreme reaction on being shown the knives.

Caltagirone

From Il Messaggero Saturday 26th September, 2009.

By ITALO CARMIGNANI and VANNA UGOLINI

A person put under a situation of extreme stress can be induced to formulate false memories and this could also have happened in the case of Amanda Knox, who was in a foreign country, whose flatmate had been killed and who was questioned at length by the police. This is the opinion of Carlo Caltagirone, consultant for the defence of the young American, who was heard yesterday in the course of the trial before the Court of the Assizes of Perugia for the murder of Meredith Kercher, the English student killed on the night of November 1st, 2007 in the cottage in Via della Pergola at Perugia.
Caltagirone explained that he had had a meeting of about three hours with Amanda at the prison, at the end of which he deemed her cognitive condition to be "very good" and "typical of a young girl". The girl "was subjected to interrogation for about 42 hours" between November 2nd and November 6th, 2007. It was in fact on the night between November 5th and 6th two years ago that Knox indicated Patrick Lumumba as the killer of Meredith Kercher.

For Caltagirone there is "scientific proof" which supports this. According to the neurologist, in the statement written by Amanda before she ended up in prison, she tells of her confused state, taking back in part what she had said, and speaking of having had "flashes" which she cannot relate to reality or her imagination, and all this is truly indicative of the state of stress to which the girl had been subjected.

This explanation did not convince Prosecutor Giuliano Mignini, who asked whether the fact that she knew she was lying could have been the stress causing factor. According to the neurologist the overall situation had more influence than the effort of telling lies. Caltagirone did not comment on Amanda's attitude two days after the murder when she returned to the crime house with the police to inspect the knives and suddenly started to cry, but he explained on the other hand, that "doing cartwheels and the splits" in the entrance of the police station, which was absolutely inappropriate behaviour, was in fact an indication of the state of stress she was under.

The expert Walter Patumi, a forensic medicine specialist, confirmed what had been claimed by previous experts for the accused, adding another criticism about the way the scientific branch had conducted the investigations: "In order to save 70 euros for the kit, the groove of the handle, at the intersection with the blade, which is the place where you can find the greatest amount of DNA, was not analysed".


Tiziano,

Your highlights have drawn me back to the subject of the knife.

So has a comment from Frank:

Quote:
But the most emotional exhibit of the day was a knife, the most popular knife in Italy, the cheapest possible knife, the one that you find in all stands at the marketplace: aMarietti knife. Presumed murder weapon of the case.


Amanda had a set of knives (etc - a cutlery set) under her bed. mostly still in their original wrappers because the cottage had it's own cutlery.

I go back to an article by Judy Bacharach who interviewed both AK's mother and Mignini to write this:

Quote:
...And, as Amanda informed her parents during a jail visit, she has no idea how that large knife managed to migrate from her own kitchen to her boyfriend’s house.


Vanity Fair - go to page 5

The police were continually asked why they picked on the knife they found at Raffaele's.

There is something here that we don't know about.


Last edited by Brian S. on Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:18 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

The 411 wrote:
--- snip ---
I guess if such a group actually existed, it might be called. . .

The "FOAK-UP" (Friends of Amanda Knox, United in Perugia). br-)) br-))
--- snap ---


LOL, funny name. You nailed it!

I also observed that Michael from Switzerland must have had a very sleepless night. Unless he is a night guard with access to the internet and nothing to do, I can't see how someone would write through the night hours and go to sleep at 7am when the sun rises in Switzerland.


petafly wrote:
You can find them in every corners these days...


You made my day. cl-)
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Offline jodyodyo


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:09 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Brian S. wrote:
Tiziano wrote:
This article from Il Messaggero has been commented on by others, but I thought that it was worth translating in full, as this is the only report I have so far read that talks about the two points in bold:
Mignini's scepticism and the failure of the expert to comment on Knox's extreme reaction on being shown the knives.

Caltagirone

From Il Messaggero Saturday 26th September, 2009.

By ITALO CARMIGNANI and VANNA UGOLINI

A person put under a situation of extreme stress can be induced to formulate false memories and this could also have happened in the case of Amanda Knox, who was in a foreign country, whose flatmate had been killed and who was questioned at length by the police. This is the opinion of Carlo Caltagirone, consultant for the defence of the young American, who was heard yesterday in the course of the trial before the Court of the Assizes of Perugia for the murder of Meredith Kercher, the English student killed on the night of November 1st, 2007 in the cottage in Via della Pergola at Perugia.
Caltagirone explained that he had had a meeting of about three hours with Amanda at the prison, at the end of which he deemed her cognitive condition to be "very good" and "typical of a young girl". The girl "was subjected to interrogation for about 42 hours" between November 2nd and November 6th, 2007. It was in fact on the night between November 5th and 6th two years ago that Knox indicated Patrick Lumumba as the killer of Meredith Kercher.

For Caltagirone there is "scientific proof" which supports this. According to the neurologist, in the statement written by Amanda before she ended up in prison, she tells of her confused state, taking back in part what she had said, and speaking of having had "flashes" which she cannot relate to reality or her imagination, and all this is truly indicative of the state of stress to which the girl had been subjected.

This explanation did not convince Prosecutor Giuliano Mignini, who asked whether the fact that she knew she was lying could have been the stress causing factor. According to the neurologist the overall situation had more influence than the effort of telling lies. Caltagirone did not comment on Amanda's attitude two days after the murder when she returned to the crime house with the police to inspect the knives and suddenly started to cry, but he explained on the other hand, that "doing cartwheels and the splits" in the entrance of the police station, which was absolutely inappropriate behaviour, was in fact an indication of the state of stress she was under.

The expert Walter Patumi, a forensic medicine specialist, confirmed what had been claimed by previous experts for the accused, adding another criticism about the way the scientific branch had conducted the investigations: "In order to save 70 euros for the kit, the groove of the handle, at the intersection with the blade, which is the place where you can find the greatest amount of DNA, was not analysed".


Tiziano,

Your highlights have drawn me back to the subject of the knife.

So has a comment from Frank:

Quote:
But the most emotional exhibit of the day was a knife, the most popular knife in Italy, the cheapest possible knife, the one that you find in all stands at the marketplace: aMarietti knife. Presumed murder weapon of the case.


Amanda had a set of knives (etc - a cutlery set) under her bed. mostly still in their original wrappers because the cottage had it's own cutlery.

I go back to an article by Judy Bacharach who interviewed both AK's mother and Mignini to write this:

Quote:
...And, as Amanda informed her parents during a jail visit, she has no idea how that large knife managed to migrate from her own kitchen to her boyfriend’s house.


Vanity Fair - go to page 5

The police were continually asked why they picked on the knife they found at Raffaele's.

There is something here that we don't know about.



So, Brian or anyone: Were the other flatmates questioned on the stand about whether or not they had seen that knife in their kitchen or whether or not it had belonged to knox? Interesting.
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:17 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Michael wrote:
Hi TM. I've yet to see any members of the defence offer a 'source' for this 'contamination'. It's not enough to simply say 'Oh, well it probably happened somewhere in the lab'. They have to offer a culprit. Where exactly is Meredith's and 'only' Meredith's DNA supposed to have come from? Just floating around the lab? Well then, how is it that nobody 'else's' DNA was just 'floating' around the lab? And that includes that of all the lab technicians, and everyone else in history that had been tested in any way in that laboratory. Stefanoni used a different machine to that which had been used to test items from the cottage. The only DNA in sight is Amanda's, on the handle, so therefore, if 'anyone's' DNA should have contaminated the blade it should have been either Amanda's, Stefanoni's (who actually did the test) or that of the policeman that actually collected and bagged the knife, or Raffaele's who was actually the owner. Yet, it came up for none of those people, only Meredith. How is that remotely possible? What is the statistical probability?


I wrote something similar yesterday at Seattle PI (do I have to say it got deleted?). We have heard lots of accusations from the FOA and the Knox/Mellas clan, but not one shred of evidence/proof whatsoever to sustain any of it. So far, they want us to believe that

- the police set Amanda and Raffaele up by coercing Amanda to a false statement even though witnesses testified she was treated well at all times
- Amanda was beaten up by police - no wait, she was hit - no wait, she was slapped on the head - no wait, she was threatened - no wait, what?
- Mignini was involved in the set up before he even was involved in the case
- it is pure casualty that Amanda "imagined" things that happened in the night of the murder that turned out to be true
- the evidence presented by the prosecution is contaminated or not existing or both and that applies to all of the evidence
- the court in Italy doesn't know what the presumption of innocence is, because the prosecution lays out the evidence in court
- the smear campaign against the Italian court, Italy and the Italians is not a curtain of smoke to mislead the public
- (if everything else fails) Italy is a backward country where you can get convicted even when there is no evidence

And I haven't even mentioned Amanda's erratic behaviour, her two sisters coming in hot shorts to a sexual assault/murder trial and getting taken their picture in front of the murder scene, Curt Knox "reporting live from Perugia" and Chris Mellas writing !!#%?!!! on the internet.

Oh boy. It is painful to watch.
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:39 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Brian S. wrote:
I go back to an article by Judy Bacharach who interviewed both AK's mother and Mignini to write this:
Quote:
...And, as Amanda informed her parents during a jail visit, she has no idea how that large knife managed to migrate from her own kitchen to her boyfriend’s house.

Vanity Fair - go to page 5


@yodyody
If Amanda said to her mother that she didn't know how the knife in question came from her kitchen to Raffaele's apartment, then she admits she recognises the knife as belonging to the kitchen of the cottage where she lived. If not, she would have said that she never saw that knife before or that it was Raffaele's.

That is at least how I understand it and therefore the prosecution is right in believing that it was transported from the cottage where the murder took place to Raffaele's apartment. Am I overlooking something?

Raffaele's remarks about Meredith's DNA getting onto the knife do make me suspicious too. From here I understand that Raffaele tried to find an "innocent" explanation, because he knew there was a chance that Meredith's DNA would be found on the knife. How could he suppose her DNA on the knife if they didn't use it to kill her? They certainly didn't cook for Meredith and didn't prick her accidentally with a knife while cooking.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:52 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

jodyodyo wrote:
Brian S. wrote:
Tiziano wrote:
This article from Il Messaggero has been commented on by others, but I thought that it was worth translating in full, as this is the only report I have so far read that talks about the two points in bold:
Mignini's scepticism and the failure of the expert to comment on Knox's extreme reaction on being shown the knives.

Caltagirone

From Il Messaggero Saturday 26th September, 2009.

By ITALO CARMIGNANI and VANNA UGOLINI

A person put under a situation of extreme stress can be induced to formulate false memories and this could also have happened in the case of Amanda Knox, who was in a foreign country, whose flatmate had been killed and who was questioned at length by the police. This is the opinion of Carlo Caltagirone, consultant for the defence of the young American, who was heard yesterday in the course of the trial before the Court of the Assizes of Perugia for the murder of Meredith Kercher, the English student killed on the night of November 1st, 2007 in the cottage in Via della Pergola at Perugia.
Caltagirone explained that he had had a meeting of about three hours with Amanda at the prison, at the end of which he deemed her cognitive condition to be "very good" and "typical of a young girl". The girl "was subjected to interrogation for about 42 hours" between November 2nd and November 6th, 2007. It was in fact on the night between November 5th and 6th two years ago that Knox indicated Patrick Lumumba as the killer of Meredith Kercher.

For Caltagirone there is "scientific proof" which supports this. According to the neurologist, in the statement written by Amanda before she ended up in prison, she tells of her confused state, taking back in part what she had said, and speaking of having had "flashes" which she cannot relate to reality or her imagination, and all this is truly indicative of the state of stress to which the girl had been subjected.

This explanation did not convince Prosecutor Giuliano Mignini, who asked whether the fact that she knew she was lying could have been the stress causing factor. According to the neurologist the overall situation had more influence than the effort of telling lies. Caltagirone did not comment on Amanda's attitude two days after the murder when she returned to the crime house with the police to inspect the knives and suddenly started to cry, but he explained on the other hand, that "doing cartwheels and the splits" in the entrance of the police station, which was absolutely inappropriate behaviour, was in fact an indication of the state of stress she was under.

The expert Walter Patumi, a forensic medicine specialist, confirmed what had been claimed by previous experts for the accused, adding another criticism about the way the scientific branch had conducted the investigations: "In order to save 70 euros for the kit, the groove of the handle, at the intersection with the blade, which is the place where you can find the greatest amount of DNA, was not analysed".


Tiziano,

Your highlights have drawn me back to the subject of the knife.

So has a comment from Frank:

Quote:
But the most emotional exhibit of the day was a knife, the most popular knife in Italy, the cheapest possible knife, the one that you find in all stands at the marketplace: aMarietti knife. Presumed murder weapon of the case.


Amanda had a set of knives (etc - a cutlery set) under her bed. mostly still in their original wrappers because the cottage had it's own cutlery.

I go back to an article by Judy Bacharach who interviewed both AK's mother and Mignini to write this:

Quote:
...And, as Amanda informed her parents during a jail visit, she has no idea how that large knife managed to migrate from her own kitchen to her boyfriend’s house.


Vanity Fair - go to page 5

The police were continually asked why they picked on the knife they found at Raffaele's.

There is something here that we don't know about.



So, Brian or anyone: Were the other flatmates questioned on the stand about whether or not they had seen that knife in their kitchen or whether or not it had belonged to knox? Interesting.


We never got the detail - it's down to an uninformed, useless press - hours of testimony condensed into four paragraphs concentrating on the girl's appearance and whether or not they cried.

I'll offer this:

Raffaele said he "pricked" Meredith with the knife while he was preparing a meal.

Meredith never went to his place but I think Raffaele may well have cooked at the cottage.

What was in his mind when he made the "pricked" statement in his diary?
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:30 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Nell wrote:

"I also observed that Michael from Switzerland must have had a very sleepless night. Unless he is a night guard with access to the internet and nothing to do, I can't see how someone would write through the night hours and go to sleep at 7am when the sun rises in Switzerland."

I think MfS, Frumpycat and other frenetic round the clock posters all have one and the same creator, and he has a hard time wrapping his mind around the whole time zone thing.

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Offline Tiziano


Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:06 am

Posts: 714

PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:50 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

jodyodyo wrote:
Brian S. wrote:

Tiziano,

Your highlights have drawn me back to the subject of the knife.

So has a comment from Frank:

Quote:
But the most emotional exhibit of the day was a knife, the most popular knife in Italy, the cheapest possible knife, the one that you find in all stands at the marketplace: aMarietti knife. Presumed murder weapon of the case.


Amanda had a set of knives (etc - a cutlery set) under her bed. mostly still in their original wrappers because the cottage had it's own cutlery.

I go back to an article by Judy Bacharach who interviewed both AK's mother and Mignini to write this:

Quote:
...And, as Amanda informed her parents during a jail visit, she has no idea how that large knife managed to migrate from her own kitchen to her boyfriend’s house.


Vanity Fair - go to page 5

The police were continually asked why they picked on the knife they found at Raffaele's.

There is something here that we don't know about.



So, Brian or anyone: Were the other flatmates questioned on the stand about whether or not they had seen that knife in their kitchen or whether or not it had belonged to knox? Interesting.


Brian & Jody, one of the reasons given for the knife being selected from the other cutlery at Sollecito's house was that it showed signs of rubbing/cleaning on the blade. Small scratch marks, from memory, which made me think of scrubbing with steel wool or abrasive cleanser or both.
The other thing that Jody's comments about is the set of knives Amanda had; could it have been one of this set? It is characterised in one press report as a very common and cheap brand, available at any market in Italy. Amanda would obviously not have been buying expensive knives, so this would seem to be consistent. Perhaps the police were looking for a missing knife from the set.
But as Brian says, we don't have access to the court transcripts, having to rely on journalists' reports, so this is conjecture. I try and read all the Italian reports, as I find nearly all the American reporting pitiful. The British press (with the obvious exception of the gutter press) is better, but my preference usually goes to La Nazione (Perugia pages) and to Corriere dell'Umbria whose journo Elio Clero Bertoldi seems to be always present in court and very reliable.
Needless to say, it would have to be a very quiet day at the office if any word of all this filtered into the Australian press!
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Offline max


Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:55 am

Posts: 1564

PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:55 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Michael wrote:
Itchy Brother wrote:
So the implication is that this alleged activity on the 5th/6th was malicious. I'm sorry, but this is just staggeringly implausable. Anyone who is clever enough to erase all traces of activity for a certain time period would certainly be clever enough to avoid leaving signs of their own activity on the 5th/6th.


They wouldn't connect to the Internet for a start, which would leave a record. Why would they need to do that anyway just to erase local data?

Fantastic story. The police breaks in RS's house and reads about the MK story on a news site on his computer. Hey, maybe it was Rudy? Concerning the few seconds the computer connected to the internet on the night of the murder. My computer often disconnects from the internet when going into standbye mode. So maybe they came home at that time and RS wants to shut down the computer. He 'wakes up' the computer, it reconnects automatically to the internet, and he then shuts it down.
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:06 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

There is a new article online at Frank's: http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/ ... le-dj.html

Again with another tasteful photo:

I guess a weird situation calls for a weird picture.

Among other things you can read there the following:
"At 12:22:16 someone opens the website facebook.com/david.johnsrud. I'm not sure it was Raffaele. Probably it was Amanda, still in touch with her ex-boyfriend DJ, who was in that moment spending his year abroad in China.

After all, the English girls have told us that Amanda --due to her new affair with Raffaele-- felt bad for DJ."

I have never read anything like that before. The English girls had nothing nice to say about Amanda Knox as far as I read. Did I miss something?
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:19 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Tiziano,

The best I can find in the English speaking press.

Quote:
Armando Finzi, an assistant in the Perugia police department's organized crimes unit, first discovered the knife in Sollecito's kitchen drawer. He said the first thing he noticed upon entering the place was a "strong smell of bleach." He opened the drawer and saw "very shiny and clean" knife lying on top of the silverware tray.

"It was the first knife I saw," he said. When pressed on cross-examination, said his "investigative intuition" led him to believe it was the murder weapon because it was compatible with the wound as it had been described to him.
With gloved hands, he placed the knife in a new police envelope, taped it shut with Scotch tape, then placed it inside a folder, he said. There were smaller and bigger knives in the drawer, but no others were taken into evidence from the kitchen, he said. A small knife was taken into evidence from Sollecito's bedroom, along with other items...


Andrea Vogt in the Seattle PI

Say what?

Sorry Andrea, but there is something missing here. :lol:

Investigative intuition eh?

Compatible with the wound, everbody has one, even the girls at the cottage, maybe it was missing from Amanda's set, maybe it didn't match Raffaele's other cutlery..........?????
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:47 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

It is also interesting to note that the time of the few seconds of activity on RS computer that night (1 am) fits exactly with the time RS describes Amanda coming home that night.
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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 5:08 am   Post subject: PERUGIA NEWS DIGEST 15, 18, 19 SEPTEMBER 2009   

This digest is from last week’s testimony.

During these hearings, the defence was attacking the Polizia Scientifica specifically, as an entity, so I have left the name of this team in the original, rather than translating it as the more generic “Forensics”.

The numbers in brackets refer to the notes at the end.


PERUGIA NEWS DIGEST 15, 18, 19 SEPTEMBER 2009


What is obvious is that the Perugia case is revolving around scientific matters. Like what has already happened for the Cogne case, you have to put your faith in this way of side-stepping [dribblare = “dribble”, like in basketball] the gaps of a traditional inquest. (27)



Notwithstanding the doubts and the absence of certain proof (there’s no trace of contacts between Rudy, Amanda and Raffaele; and motives and dynamics are still shrouded in mystery), the result of the case is looking to be a sure bet, and life sentences for Amanda and Raffaele seem to be inevitable. It is probably more for dispelling any doubts that the President of the Court of Assizes, Giancarlo Massei, will be constrained to commission an expert (at least on the knife and on the DNA found on Meredith’s bra-clasp collected forty days after the discovery of the body), just as GUP Paolo Micheli, on the other hand, had suggested when he remanded Amanda and Raffaele to stand trial. An expert, however, that will be called by the defences of the accused. (27)





14 SEPTEMBER 2009
Adriano Tagliabracci (in the afternoon)
– Pointed out the lack of information about the initial volume of the samples used by the Polizia Scientifica for DNA analysis, and also the procedures followed (9)
– He mentioned the “advanced state of the research” and the “reports relating to the quantification of the DNA” , referring to the around-300 pages deposited in the last few weeks by Polizia Scientifica biologist Patrizia Stefanoni as part of the judicial record. (9) “We don’t know how much was extracted. The data is not there, even if they are part of the normal practice of the lab”. (9)

REQUEST FOR MISSING DATA
– Giulia Bongiorno therefore requested the deposition of what on her advice is the missing data. “There’s nothing more,” was Prosecutor Manuela Comodi’s reply. (9)




18 SEPTEMBER 2009
– Hearings resumed at 10am (25)
– Both young ones, Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, were present in court (25)


WITNESSES NOT REQUIRED
In Court, Raffaele Sollecito’s defence announced the decision of not calling the last few witnesses. (5)

REQUEST FOR BANK STATEMENTS
(Luca Maori, on behalf of (34)) The Sollecito defence continued calls for acquiring the documentation relating to the victim’s bank account with a view to ascertaining at which bank the 20 euro withdrawal was made on 2 November 2007. The Court reserved its decision on this matter. (5, 30, 34)

Mauro Paggi
– supervised the transcription of various telephone intercepts, including Amanda’s (in the hours (25)) after the discovery of Meredith’s body (19, 25);
– Not all of the transcribed material was able to be presented at the moment, owing to various damaged disks (25)
– such material as allowed by the President of the Court will be made available to the parties at the hearing on the 25th September (19)

Francesco Vinci
– a professor (2)
– from Bari (2), at the Athenaeum there (25)
– spent almost seven hours testifying in court (13)
– his subject matter of expertise was and is prints (20)
– four prints were added to the court record (25)

Shoe prints on the pillow

FIVE PRINTS
– Five shoe prints have been found on the pillow collected by Forensics from Meredith’s room (1)
– Up until now, there was only one print (attributed to Rudy) and one trace (described as the heel of a size 37 woman’s shoe), not particularly clear (1)

[Reporter’s comment:] This is another arrow that the defences are readying to let loose on the case in an upcoming hearing, perhaps as early as this weekend. (1)

SOURCES SAY - CRIMESCOPE
The defence teams have not officially announced anything yet, but the whispers doing the rounds are saying that Professor Vinci (after having obtained permission from Giancarlo Massei the President of the Court of Assizes), having accessed the Roman labs of the Scientifica, was able to lift some new prints thanks to Crimoscope, an instrument which reveals prints treated chemically with fluorescing substances. (1)

SOURCES SAY – SHOE SIZES
The whispers are saying that there are five prints and all from a (left) shoe that, from its size (45) and pattern on the sole (eleven circles), the expert is going to attribute to Rudy Guede’s Nike Outbreak2s. Various of these prints are almost superimposed on each other. (1)

IMPLICATIONS
In sum, at this distance in time from the investigations, the defence experts are uncovering new things, substantial (if proved) as well as, indirectly, a kind of criticism of the actions undertaken by the police, in particular by the Polizia Scientifica of Rome. (1)

THEY’RE NOT RAFFAELE’S
– Prints attributed to Raffaele are not his (2)
– took an entire morning to explain his conclusions (2)
– and almost a whole afternoon defending his opinion against the insistent questioning of the prosecution and the Kercher lawyers (2)
– the meeting of minds became deeper, if not bitter (2)

PRINT “A” – THE SHOE PRINT IN MEREDITH’S ROOM
Vinci began with the attribution of print "A", left by a Nike shoe, an Air Force One series, that the Polizia Scientifica of Rome had attributed to Raffaele Sollecito and he demolished it, reminding everyone how he had already presented his conclusions back in January 2008. The print had been left by a Nike shoe, but another series (Outbreak 2) – the same kind worn by Rudy Guede (who had an empty shoebox of this type at his place). As the Professor explained, this same conclusion was reached, but only later, by the Roman police officers. Hence, the first incorrect attribution of the part of the police. (2)

THE FOOTPRINT ON THE BATHMAT
Then, evidenced on the bathmat in the small bathroom, the print of the bare foot, still attributed to Sollecito. Vinci began with looking at Raffaele’s feet, including using documentation from a posture examination that the lad had done in 2006. Underlining the variation in the left [a misprint for “right”?] lateral hallux (the hammer toe) and other particulars of posture and anatomical changes, Vinci demolished the Polizia Scientifica’s conclusions, criticizing, as well, the fact that the experts had failed to make an ascertainment on the complete print (in large part “fixed” onto the bathmat, but with the heel missing). (2)

The 2006 orthopaedic examination shows that the toe next to the big toe of the right foot is partially bent (remaining normally slightly raised (8); however it appears on the bathmat print (8)). (6, 12)

“During the course of undertaking this study, we were fortunate because in 2006 Sollecito, owing to a posture problem, took an orthopaedic exam. From this, we were able to derive a study relevant for understanding the foot characteristics of the accused. Sollecito’s right foot has a morphological characteristic: the big toe is turned inwards, leaving the second toe lifted up. That is to say, it does not touch the ground. (25, and 19)


The hammer toe characteristic is fundamental when comparing prints. Using a projection in court, the bathmat print has none of the morphological and metrical characteristics of the accused. (19)
The murder print and Sollecito’s print were superimposed in a video shown in court. (25)

During his deposition, Vinci emphasised that, to reach his conclusions, he used certified systems of measurement, took into account the technical procedures published by the Polizia Scientifica, watched films and looked at photographs, and examined the various pieces of evidence at first hand. (In his report, Vinci also compared the foot prints collected by the Polizia Scientifica with those of Amanda Knox and Rudy Guede.) (6, 8, 12)

The bloodied footprint is not Sollecito’s. Vinci said that, owing to its metrics and morphological characteristics, it cannot be attributed to Sollecito like the Prosecution is seeking to do. (4, 8, 12, 18, 21, 25)

For Vinci, the bathmat print “is attributable, in a probable sense, to Rudy Guede” (6, 12) He hypothesises that it might be Guede’s: “I cannot say with certainty that it belongs to Guede, but we can say that it is attributable, in a probable sense, to him” (8, 18, 19, 25, 38)


THE LUMINOL PRINT IN FRONT OF AMANDA’S ROOM
Another session was devoted to the bare-foot print, revealed with Luminol, in the hallway of the flat right in front of Amanda Knox’s room. That print would show a difference of 3 cm with respect to the accused’s foot, so therefore it is not possible to attribute it to him in an absolute manner. (2) That print is smaller than his (6, 12, 18, 19, 25) and is probably attributable to a person of the female sex (6, 12, 19): “it is not attributable to Raffaele because it is smaller than his foot” (8, indirect speech in 38)

THE FOOTPRINTS ON THE PILLOWSLIP
Vinci then explained the results of his lab research on the pillowslip found under the body of the victim. On this item, the police had identified the trace of a shoe and the print of a heel. Using Crimescope, Vinci identified five prints, three of them superimposed. All these prints, according to Vinci, would have been attributable to Nike brand shoes, Outbreak2 model (that is, Rudy’s shoes). (2)

LEFT AND RIGHT
They are all left-foot shoe prints (while the three barefoot prints, including the two smaller ones – from a woman? – are all of the right foot) (2)

CONCLUSIONS
The bathmat print does not belong to the accused. (22)
“None of the prints (or: Neither of the two prints (12, 18)) collected by the Polizia Scientifica in the via della Pergola cottage are able to be attributed to Raffaele Sollecito” (6, 12, 18; indirect speech in 19)

KNIFE IMPRESSION ON THE BEDSHEET
The last thing Vinci dealt with was the print (or the impression, if you will) of the knife on the bedsheet. The defence expert maintained that the murderer placed the weapon on the fabric. From the measurements (and the interpretations) made by Vinci, we are talking of a knife with a 1.6cm-wide and 9.6cm long blade. And so, completely different dimensions to the weapon thought to be that used by the killer, which is around 31cm long. (2)



MARESCA (KERCHER TEAM) ON VINCI
–After the hearing (3, 14):
– “For us, the scenario outlined today is not credible” (2, 3, 14)
– “The barefoot print on the bathmat is, for us, Sollecito’s. The Polizia Scientifica reconstructed it perfectly; for which, on this result, there is no room for discussion.” (2, 3, 14)
– Commenting on the possibility that the via della Pergola cottage might be leased out soon, Maresca said that “as always, time passes and it is to be expected [logico] that the owner of the residence would intend to put it back on the market [sooner or later]” (14)

MAORI (SOLLECITO TEAM) ON VINCI AND THE BATHMAT PRINT
– After the hearing (6, 15):
– “Finally, today we were able, in a clear and straightforward way, to say what we have been maintaining for almost two years, that is, that in that house there exist no shoeprints belonging to Raffaele Sollecito, and neither any footprints. They belong to other subjects who have been unequivocally identified: they are Rudy Guede’s.” “in the murder house there are left-shoeprints and right-barefoot prints belonging to Rudy Guede” “There are, and were, no footprints of Raffaele Sollecito. What was shown during the course of the commital proceedings legal argument on the part of the Polizia Scientifica was an absolutely erroneous fact.” (6, 15)

MAORI ON VINCI AND THE BEDSHEET IMPRINT
– The bedsheet bloodied knife-print is “completely different in dimensions with respect to the one thought to have been the murder weapon and that was found inside Raffaele Sollecito’s house” “It’s half the length compared to that knife – a point absolutely in our favour.” (6, 15)


LAST HEARINGS
The last witnesses ought to be heard in the coming hearings on 25 and 26 September (5, 34)
The hearings on 2 and 3 October ought to be devoted to the probable request for final expert examinations. (5, 34)


COTTAGE BACK ON THE RENT MARKET
After desequestration, the flat, repainted and with new furniture, has come back onto the market.(6)

Rent enquiries for the upstairs and downstairs apartments in via della Pergola are starting to come through, via the Internet (the ad was in fact placed on a portal), to the real estate agent charged by the owner with finding new tenants. (6, 7, 16, 17, 23, 24)

The ad was placed on the Quality Living site. (16, 23, 24)

“There have been enquiries, but in fact both places are still available”, confirmed Emanuele Pesciolini, head of the agency. (6, 7, 16, 17, 23, 24)
The agent explained that, other than some journalists, various students have shown interest. They’ve made them because of the position, the environment and because they need a yard and parking. No-one has made any reference to an interest tied to the murder” (6, 7, 23, 24)

The ads for the two apartments (1300 euro a month for the one in which Meredith Kercher was living, 300 euro less for the smaller downstairs one) make reference to a “tiny standalone cottage redone outside and in, with private garden and ample parking”. A photo of an external view of the little house is also on the web. (6, 7, 23, 24)

UmbriaLeft
No-one has however visited the house or met with the real estate agent so far. (6, 23, 24)

The murder flat and the one underneath were long under sequestration. After being returned to the care of the owner, a lady in Rome, they were completely renovated inside and out. Freshly painted walls, and almost all the furniture of the murder house has been replaced. For damages suffered, the cottage owner has joined the case against Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox as a civil party via her lawyer Letizia Magnini. (7, 23, 24)




19 SEPTEMBER 2009

TGCOM

– The knife that was used to kill Meredith Kercher was shown in court (26, 30) and was “not incompatible” with the wounds (35)
– At the request of Giulia Bongiorno (27), the three forensics experts, who undertook the (the GIP’s (28)) probatory preliminary [incidente] investigation into the causes of Meredith’s death, were heard today (11, 26, 35): Giancarlo Umani-Ronchi, Mariano Cingolani and Anna Aprile (27), speaking of an “escalation of violence” (35)
– They re-affirmed their conclusions (28): the larger wound on the victim’s neck was “not incompatible” with the kitchen knife (the one with DNA traces from Kercher on the tip and from Knox near the handle) seized from Sollecito’s house (28, 33).

On the subject of the smaller wound, Cingolani spoke of “non absolute incompatibility” (28)

In their report to the GIP, the experts explained, however, that the width and depth of a wound caused by a sharp pointed blade depends on various factors, including the force used by the aggressor and the victim’s movements. In their opinion, therefore, there were “significant elements” missing to allow one to say whether or not one or more knives were used. (28, 29, 33)

The experts did not directly examine the body, but based themselves on data collected during the autopsy, (by Dr Luca Lalli (33, 38)) and they analysed the samples acquired.(29, 33, 38)


Mariano Cingolani
– spoke long about the knife (36)
– examined it in person (36, 38); he spoke of its “not absolute incompatibility” with the smaller wound found on Meredith’s neck, but he also said that “many others [i.e., knives] could be more compatible” (29, 33, 36, 38)
– the knife seized by the Perugia Flying Squad was shown in Court during his testimony (28, 38); he put on gloves and mask to examine it (28, 29, 31, 38)

– he repeated what he said before: the knife is “not incompatible” with the wound. (27)
A double negative, to be found neither in the medico-legal literature nor in the Italian language, which up until now allows that kitchen knife to be thought of as the weapon used to kill Meredith. Although he now adds: “Just as any other single-edged knife is not incompatible”. Which is a way of saying all the knives in the world that have a single-edged blade. Moreover, outside court, the same Cingolani says: “You want to know if it is the murder weapon? No, and I told the judges so, in a way. Not having the technical data, though, to affirm it, in court we had to have recourse to the ‘not incompatible’ formula. That’s all.” (27)


– “Meredith died within minutes,” seven to ten minutes, from the moment she suffered the neck injuries, and “she might have screamed”. (29, 33, 37, 38; partly reported, as indirect speech, in 31)

– He also confronted the various alcohol readings: “We recovered a reading of zero in the gastric contents, of 0.2 grams per litre in the liver, and 2.72 in the blood. The readings are too far apart. There is no pharmacological-genetic reason that can explain all of them. Something else must be going on.”(31, 36, 37, 38)
– Cingolani thereby used, as a parametric “reference” value, a blood-alcohol reading of 0.43, as obtained during the autopsy. (31, 36). This reading could be tied to having drunk a glass of wine or beer, and could encompass a “least consequence” [=minimo riflesso] on behaviour (36, 37)



Giancarlo Umani-Ronchi
– Expert called on by the GIP (10)
The professor was critical of the way the inquest was conducted. “They asked me to establish the time of death but at the start the most basic errors were made, beginning with the lack of thanatological analysis of the body by the first medico-legal officer arriving at the scene of the crime. Doctor Luca Lalli had arrived at via della Pergola at 2pm and had to wait until all collections by the Polizia Scientifica were effected before he could examine the body, which he did the day after, at 1pm. Twelve hours after, therefore, with a delay the consequences of which are easy to imagine. And now the attempt to put a time on the death of that poor student is by means of analysing stomach contents – a datum in forensic medicine that is the last to be examined, because it is subject to too many variables. And, returning to the knife, it is impossible to establish if the one indicated [by the Prosecution] is or is not the murder weapon, given that the dynamics of the aggression is not known.” (27)


– From looking at the photos, he had “the impression (“it was only an impression” (33)) that there was an escalation of violence” against the victim, “with an evolution from small-sized, superficial, wounding up to the more important injuries that then became those that caused the decease” (10). “Looking at the images, I had the impression that there was an escalation of violence.”(10). From “small-sized superficial” wounds to “those that caused death” (32).

– On the knife held by the Prosecution to be the murder weapon, Umani-Ronchi spoke of “generic compatibility” or “non-incompatibility” of this knife with the wounds suffered by the victim: (10, 33) “generic compatibility” insofar as a single-edged blade and “not incompatible” with the larger wound made in the victim’s neck, adding, though, he was able to see the knife “only from a distance” (34)

– He spoke of how, in a probatory sense, the knife “was almost unapproachable”. “I saw it from a distance and I was not allowed to touch it. It was brought into the lab almost as if it were a sacred relic.” (10, 33)

Equally uncertain, for the expert, is the possibility of establishing an exact time of death, generically estimated in the a range from 20 to 30 hours before the time the temperature of the body as taken. (34)


Anna Aprile
– The only one to reinforce the Prosecution’s thesis is Doctor Anna Aprile, who, unable to affirm without a shadow of doubt that Meredith was subjected to sexual violence, explains: “There are signs of sexual intercourse shortly before death. Whether consensual or not, it is not possible to say using technical data”. (27, 28, 29, 36, 38)

She specified however that sexual violence might not leave evident signs on a victim. She agreed with Prosecutor Manuela Comodi (she’s very good at putting the defence consultants on the defensive) that under a direct threat any consent is annulled. (27)

She spoke of “small ecchymosis” [=“bruising”] found on the victim. “It is however incorrect to infer consent from the absence of lesions. There’s a study that shows that two thirds of attacked women who were examined immediately by their specialists did not present with lesions on their organs.” (36, 37)

In her opinion, in any case, the overall picture is suggestive of “Meredith being killed in a violent struggle” (27, 28, 29, 36, 37, 38)


The Knife
Protecting it like a holy relic: kept in a plastic bag inside a cardboard box with “evidence” written on the outside, and accompanied by two officers (27, 31) from the Polizia Scientifica (31).

During the inquest, when it was being analysed in the forensics lab, it was not possible to inspect it close up, either for the defence consultants, or for the GIP’s experts. And today in Court, both witnesses and lawyers had to follow strictest protocol to examine it: face masks and latex gloves and the utmost care to not contaminate it. (27).

These precautions appear ridiculous, given that it’s now certain [i.e., per the defence] that the knife with Meredith’s and Amanda’s DNA on it seized at Raffaele Sollecito’s house is not the weapon used to kill the English student on 1 November 2007 in via della Pergola (27)
Repubblica


The actual knife was shown by Prosecutor Manuela Comodi to the jury (30)

Radio RAI







References
1 – “Five shoe prints found on pillow” by Elio Clero Bertoldi Corriere dell’Umbria 15 September 2009
2 – “Shoes, feet and knife” by Elio Clero Bertoldi Corriere dell’Umbria 19 September 2009
3 – “Kercher lawyer: Sollecito defence not credible” Giornale del Friuli 19 September 2009
4 – “Not Sollecito’s print” ANSA 18 September 2009
5 – “Hearings resume, forensics experts in court” AGI 18 September 2009
6 – “”They’re not Sollecito’s prints; rent enquiries for murder cottage” Quotidiano 18 September 2009
7 – “First rent enquiries for murder house” Nazione 18 September 2009
8 – “Case resumes, Sollecito expert testifies” Nazione 18 September 2009
9 – “Case resumes: Sollecito expert disputes DNA” Nazione 14 September 2009
10 – “Ronchi: Escalation of violence against the victim” AGI 19 September 2009
11 – “Hearings resume: forensics in court” AGI 19 September 2009
12 – “Sollecito expert: prints not his” AGI 18 September 2009
13 – “Hearing concludes; resumes tomorrow” AGI 18 September 2009
14 – “Kercher lawyer: defence expert picture not credible” AGI 18 September 2009
15 – “Sollecito lawyer: not his prints” AGI 18 September 2009
16 – “Rent enquires for the house” ANSA 18 September 2009
17 – “Rent enquires for Meredith house, but apartment still empty” TGCOM 18 September 2009
18 – “Escalation of violence” Libero 18 September 2009
19 – “Defence expert: no prints attributable to Sollecito” ASCA 18 September 2009
20 – “Hearing resumes, Sollecito expert in court” AGI 18 September 2009
21 – “Print not Sollecito’s” EuroNews 18 September 2009
22 – “Hearings resume” ExpoItaly 18 September 2009
23 – “Standalone renovated villette” UmbriaLeft 18 September 2009
24 – “Rent enquiries for the house”
TempoReale 18 September 2009, and also TRG Media 18 September 2009 and PerugiaNews 18 September 2009 and BlitzQuotidiano 18 September 2009
25 – “No Sollecito prints, Guede killer hypothesis resurfaces” by Nicola Bossi UmbriaLeft 18 September 2009
26 – “Knife shown in court” ADN Kronos 19 September 2009
27 – “Kitchen utensil centre of attention today” by correspondent Meo Ponte Repubblica 19 September 2009
28 – “Murder weapon in court” RAI News 19 September 2009
29 – “Died in 7-10 minutes” Corriere della Sera 19 September 2009
30 – “Knife shown in court” Libero 19 September 2009
31 – “In court, knife seized at Sollecito house” TGCOM 19 September 2009
32 – “GIP experts in court” ANSA 19 September 2009
33 – “Murder knife in court” Giornale 19 September 2009
34 – “GIP consultant: escalation of violence” ASCA 19 September 2009
35 – “Escalation of violence” Radio RAI 19 September 2009
36 – “Mez had sexual activity” TGCOM 19 September 2009
37 – “The lass died in a few minutes, perhaps after having screamed” IrisPress 19 September 2009
38 – “Sexual activity before dying” Leggo Online 19 September 2009

The reports are archived at “Italian newspaper reports on the case 28 Feb 2009-“, page 4 [ link ]
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Offline Tiziano


Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:06 am

Posts: 714

PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 5:13 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Brian S. wrote:
Tiziano,

The best I can find in the English speaking press.

Quote:
Armando Finzi, an assistant in the Perugia police department's organized crimes unit, first discovered the knife in Sollecito's kitchen drawer. He said the first thing he noticed upon entering the place was a "strong smell of bleach." He opened the drawer and saw "very shiny and clean" knife lying on top of the silverware tray.

"It was the first knife I saw," he said. When pressed on cross-examination, said his "investigative intuition" led him to believe it was the murder weapon because it was compatible with the wound as it had been described to him.
With gloved hands, he placed the knife in a new police envelope, taped it shut with Scotch tape, then placed it inside a folder, he said. There were smaller and bigger knives in the drawer, but no others were taken into evidence from the kitchen, he said. A small knife was taken into evidence from Sollecito's bedroom, along with other items...


Andrea Vogt in the Seattle PI

Say what?

Sorry Andrea, but there is something missing here. :lol:

Investigative intuition eh?

Compatible with the wound, everbody has one, even the girls at the cottage, maybe it was missing from Amanda's set, maybe it didn't match Raffaele's other cutlery..........?????


Thanks Brian. You did extremely well to dig that out! I've been searching but can't find the source for my remembering the scratches on the blade, referred to as evidence of cleaning.
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Offline Tiziano


Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:06 am

Posts: 714

PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 5:21 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Thank you Catnip for your fantastic roundup and all the references to your sources.
It is most impressive, as usual.
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Offline Tara


User avatar


Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

Posts: 1010

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 5:27 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Hi Tiziano,

Andrea Vogt wrote about the streaks on the knife in her May 22, 2009 report:

"Biologists chose samples from a particular part of the blade because there were long streaks visible to the naked eye that appeared to have been made by a rubbing motion, she said. "

EXPERTS SAY KNOX'S DNA IS ON MURDER WEAPON

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Offline Tiziano


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:23 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Tara, thank you for the link. I'll go back to May and see what else I can find.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:32 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

On Nov 2 "At 12:22:16 someone opens the website facebook.com/david.johnsrud. I'm not sure it was Raffaele."

The time is most interesting.
It seriously contradicts the police's theory of the CCTV camera time being 10 minutes ahead of true time.

So the postals couldn't arrive at 12:26 and find the pair there.

(Assuming, of course, that the computer time was correct)
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:58 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

And it also contradicts Amanda's account.
At the latest at 12:34, in their last phone conversation, she talked with Filomena about the burglary.
That is also very strict if at 12:22 she was still surfing at Raffaele's place.

2:08:44 to 12:09:52 Amanda calls Filomena (length: 68 sec] [cell ????}
12:11:02 Amanda calls Meredith's Italian phone (ringing) (length: 3 sec)
12:11:54 Amanda calls Meredith's English phone ("out of service" message) (length: 4 sec)
12:12:35 to 12:13:10 Filomena calls Amanda [length: 35 sec]
12:20:44 to 12:21:49 Filomena calls Amanda [length: 65 sec]
12:34:56 to 12:35:44 Filomena calls Amanda [length: 48 sec]

12:35:08 to 12:37:23 (ie 135 seconds) Raffaele recharges his cellphone account [cell: piazza Lupatelli, covering the cottage]
12:38:17 Raffaele receives SMS confirming recharge [cell: piazza Lupatelli]
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Offline Woodrina


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:43 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

bolint wrote:
On Nov 2 "At 12:22:16 someone opens the website facebook.com/david.johnsrud. I'm not sure it was Raffaele."


Hi Bolint! Minor detail... Facebook didn't have usernames until 2009, so it seems it's unlikely that anyone opened such a webpage in 2007. The profile address would have been facebook.com followed by a bunch of random letters and numbers then. So I think whoever wrote this is making things up in this case.
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:11 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Woodrina wrote:
bolint wrote:
On Nov 2 "At 12:22:16 someone opens the website facebook.com/david.johnsrud. I'm not sure it was Raffaele."


Hi Bolint! Minor detail... Facebook didn't have usernames until 2009, so it seems it's unlikely that anyone opened such a webpage in 2007. The profile address would have been facebook.com followed by a bunch of random letters and numbers then. So I think whoever wrote this is making things up in this case.


Ha ha. Good one! The devil is always in the detail! Thanks for that information, Woodrina.

Maybe the mistake is originated by the reporting? If you open an "old" web-address will you be redirected to the new address? On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised, there has been so much misreporting on behalf of the FOA and the Knox/Mellas clan so far.
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Offline ttrroonniicc


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:29 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

bolint wrote:
12:11:02 Amanda calls Meredith's Italian phone (ringing) (length: 3 sec)


She left it ringing for 3 seconds because she knew there wouldn't be an answer; she rang for the appearance of having rang. At that stage she was only just beginning to go through the process of pretending to discover the murder. This involved performing actions she knew to be pointless and telling lies. It became a long process.

Who would leave a phone ringing just for 3 seconds if they believed it could be answered.

Amanda was beginning to experience real fear - her mind racing - she'd had no sleep -- thinking fast and moving fast she didn't let the phone ring on. She knew she didn't have to. What she didn't think or know at that stage was that she would be completely implicated and that there would even be a record of the length of time the phone was ringing.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

The most detailed information to date on the computer activity:

Quote:
Antonio D'Ambrosio

(ECB) Who has maneuvered the PC Raffaele Sollecito, an Apple Mac Book Pro, on the night between 5 and 6 November 2007, while the student was in Bari police station as a person informed of the facts first and then as a suspect, so that be immediately transferred to huts, charged with the murder of Meredith Kercher of competition and competition in sexual violence on studentedssa English? Yellow bursts of Frescoes in the classroom, in this process as long as the shirt of Meo and full of surprises. Bursts, yellow, following the production performed by expert Michele Gigli and Antonio D'Ambrosio (the latter was to present his report the trial) by analyzing the hard drive, PC, the suspect acquired a copy of lawyers than to logging, the company acquired by the Postal Police Fastweb. Analyzing the activity of PC 22 between the hours of 5 November through to 13.30 on 6 November, experts have reconstructed the activity in two phases. "In the first - say - Expected use by the owner Raffaele Sollecito. In the following the PC was used by a person unknown to us, because the pleadings Raffaele Sollecito could not be present at home in that space of time (he was, precisely, in police headquarters, ed). The use of computers by the owner, in our view, ended with 20 on 5 November with the use of Skype. 22:05 From experts have reconstructed accesses to the Safari browser, applications, Messenger, Skype, Adobe GoLive CS2 (ore 22.10), open the Mail (at 23.07), Finder (00.58 '), iTunes, Firefox. Then he starts again with a new access to Safari (9.07), Firefox (with the opening page of the anxiety which bore the title "English slew of detentions carried out" and details "identify the people involved, press conference at 11" . Anyone who has clicked on legere the news agency and other interactions, it is not known. But it is possible that, soon, the yellow may have a solution. The consultants also discussed the analysis of computer activity in the night of the crime, among the 21 on November ee 5 am on 2 November. "Analyzing the printouts provided by the company providing the service connectivity Fastweb SpA, have taken over - hold Gigli and D'Ambrosio - a major traffic consists mainly of P2P (PeerToPeer). It 'is well known that the computer was still plugged in and connected to the network to allow software such as Azureus and aMule to continue the download / upload files selected. And' this, however, albeit with lesser amounts of traffic "www.http." Part of the web traffic is automatic, self-generated at regular intervals by the Firefox browser to IP related Google and Mozilla, but we found that in addition to trafficking at 00:58 '.50' there Traffic home page at http://www.apple.com. This means that, in our view, there was access to the international site of Apple time indicated by a user. Then at 00:58 'on November 2, there was a human interaction with computers. "There is interaction with the film" The fabulous world of Amelie "and" Star Dust. "Not only. The consultants, commissioned by Defense Sollecito, have also analyzed the" movements "of the computer on the afternoon of 30 October (from 15 to 18:30, to be exact). And even in these hours were detected accesses which demonstrate the use of the computer that afternoon. "We feel good - plus the two experts - that the day was on October 30 system of Standard Time, or the sun has risen at 6:11 'and is set at 17:36.' "Easy for the defense concluded that the witness who claims to have seen, when it was still daylight, I call on the street, between the farmhouse and Piazza Grimana with Amanda, Meredith and Rudy Guede, are wrong. The advice, in short, is a sort of undermines the prosecution case but prosecutors Mignini and comfortable and the party have been careful to point out that the conclusions What are the experts of the Postal Police arrived (present in the classroom alongside the judges) are completely different. In attendance also geneticist Sarah Gino, defense consultant Knox, who has again raised the issue of contamination of trace amounts of DNA. "The risk exists and must be taken into serious consideration "- said


Google translation of this page at Corriere Del'Umbria


Edit to add:

There is a lot of detailed information here, anyone up for a real translation??


Last edited by Brian S. on Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Comments from Raffaele's defence team and more info on the upcoming events:

Quote:
We will ask to make new assessments.
The announcement Sollecito's lawyer, Luca Maori.


PERUGIA 27/09/2009

"We were very lucky because the objective data that have emerged have excluded any liability for my son in this terrible situation." This was declared yesterday, at the exit from the hearing, Professor Franco Sollecito, the father of Raphael. The day in which they are paraded before the sull'emiciclo computer expert, then expert in genetics, was viewed by the defenders (yesterday was attended by Luca Maori, and Donatella Donati Daniela Rocca) as very positive for the arguments brought forward and to highlight the errors and the gray areas of investigators and forensic science. Professor Franco added that he was "confident" the outcome of the process. "Have always been convinced of the innocence of Raffaele - underlined - and a fortiori they are now. Raffaele is also more serene in the light of what is emerging. " The Maori lawyer asked, formally, slipping hearings on 2 and 3 October, as the testimony was completed, in order to organize work, to study the papers and submit a detailed and thorough justification for requests in the light of 'Article 507. The Assize Court accepted the request and set the next hearing for the afternoon of 9 October (15.30). If necessary, work will continue the next day, Saturday 10. "What do you ask? More than one expert. Everything, as you may have noticed, has been called into question. " Short time the process may lengthen if the Assize Court decides to accept requests from patrons of the two defendants, who had already anticipated as a lawyer Giulia Bongiorno

Ecb


Google translation of this page at Corriere Dell'Umbria
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Woodrina wrote:
bolint wrote:
On Nov 2 "At 12:22:16 someone opens the website facebook.com/david.johnsrud. I'm not sure it was Raffaele."


Hi Bolint! Minor detail... Facebook didn't have usernames until 2009, so it seems it's unlikely that anyone opened such a webpage in 2007. The profile address would have been facebook.com followed by a bunch of random letters and numbers then. So I think whoever wrote this is making things up in this case.


This one could already be solved. Please read the comments from Frank's blog:

Quote:
Anonymous said...
(brought from the other topic)
Frank, the website http://www.facebook.com/david.johnsrud
did not exist in 2007 with this URL.
What did the computer expert state exactly?

September 27, 2009 5:13 AM


Quote:
Frank said...
I didn't say that the expert said that.
It's just documentation in my possession since ever. I talked about it yesterday since yesterday was a hearing about computer traffic.
You want me to post the string?
Or maybe the emails she sent?

September 27, 2009 5:19 AM


OK, in other words, we don't know where this information comes from. I doubt that Frank analyses the traffic himself, I read somewhere that Chris Mellas is a network admin et voilà - a new fact is born.

I can't escape the feeling that this was deliberately published coinciding with the testimony from the computer expert so that the reader must believe this was what the expert said. In Frank's article it wasn't mentioned that these "facts" were his own conclusions.

What a waste of time.
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17   

Just a thought about bloody footprints. Maybe someone has said it before and I don't remember.

RS's team have consistently attempted to lay the big footprints off on RG. The latest was one shoe on and one shoe off. Yeah that's possible in a struggle but what about his sock.

BUT

To my knowledge AK's team have never attempted to lay the small bloody footprints off on Meredith and resulting from that same struggle.

I can only think of one reason for this.

Meredith didn't have any blood on her feet, and all that information is in the coroners report and well demonstrated with photographic evidence.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:47 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Nell wrote:
Woodrina wrote:
bolint wrote:
On Nov 2 "At 12:22:16 someone opens the website facebook.com/david.johnsrud. I'm not sure it was Raffaele."


Hi Bolint! Minor detail... Facebook didn't have usernames until 2009, so it seems it's unlikely that anyone opened such a webpage in 2007. The profile address would have been facebook.com followed by a bunch of random letters and numbers then. So I think whoever wrote this is making things up in this case.


This one could already be solved. Please read the comments from Frank's blog:

Quote:
Anonymous said...
(brought from the other topic)
Frank, the website http://www.facebook.com/david.johnsrud
did not exist in 2007 with this URL.
What did the computer expert state exactly?

September 27, 2009 5:13 AM


Quote:
Frank said...
I didn't say that the expert said that.
It's just documentation in my possession since ever. I talked about it yesterday since yesterday was a hearing about computer traffic.
You want me to post the string?
Or maybe the emails she sent?

September 27, 2009 5:19 AM


OK, in other words, we don't know where this information comes from. I doubt that Frank analyses the traffic himself, I read somewhere that Chris Mellas is a network admin et voilà - a new fact is born.

I can't escape the feeling that this was deliberately published coinciding with the testimony from the computer expert so that the reader must believe this was what the expert said. In Frank's article it wasn't mentioned that these "facts" were his own conclusions.

What a waste of time.


It's not a waste of time - IT'S DECEPTION!!!
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Well, Frank's admitted that none of that actually came up in court in his comments section (he should have said so in his main article, as he gives the impression this is from the court). The whole Amanda sending Gmail mails and connecting to DJ's page, this is all Frank. He claims he's had this data in his possession for AGES. Well, what I'd like to know, is if it's been around since the age of Methusala, why we've not heard of these elements in the trial, especially for the defence considering they would be most handy for Raffaele and Amanda, casting doubt on the arrival time of the postal police.

And why is Maori holding up the trial? What was his reason for an adjournment request? (I note Knox supporters and family aren't giving HIM stick for making the process even longer).

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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Michael wrote:
Well, Frank's admitted that none of that actually came up in court in his comments section (he should have said so in his main article, as he gives the impression this is from the court). The whole Amanda sending Gmail mails and connecting to DJ's page, this is all Frank. He claims he's had this data in his possession for AGES. Well, what I'd like to know, is if it's been around since the age of Methusala, why we've not heard of these elements in the trial, especially for the defence considering they would be most handy for Raffaele and Amanda, casting doubt on the arrival time of the postal police.

And why is Maori holding up the trial? What was his reason for an adjournment request? (I note Knox supporters and family aren't giving HIM stick for making the process even longer).


Michael,

Frank has been caught cold in a deception because somebody knew what he said couldn't be true.

He had no choice but to come clean.

The question is, how much more DISINFORMATION has he propogated over the last 18 months where no-one was in a position to know otherwise?
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Brian S. wrote:
It's not a waste of time - IT'S DECEPTION!!!


I agree!


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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17   

Brian S. wrote:
Just a thought about bloody footprints. Maybe someone has said it before and I don't remember.

RS's team have consistently attempted to lay the big footprints off on RG. The latest was one shoe on and one shoe off. Yeah that's possible in a struggle but what about his sock.

BUT

To my knowledge AK's team have never attempted to lay the small bloody footprints off on Meredith and resulting from that same struggle.

I can only think of one reason for this.

Meredith didn't have any blood on her feet, and all that information is in the coroners report and well demonstrated with photographic evidence.


That is a very interesting point. Brian, you are a good observer.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

I will add, neither has anyone identified Rudy's supposed bare foot in Meredith's room. If, as they're tring to argue, his shoe came off in the struggle and he stepped in blood then stepping in that blood would have left a print. But there's no barefoot prints in Meredith's room at all, not even a partial. It also doesn't explain the barefoot print in the corridor. It also doesn't explain why the shod foot he was hopping on left no prints going into the bedroom, or why one who was so concerned to hop so he wouldn't leave prints would then go stomping in blood again and then happily leave a trail of his prints going down the crorridor, through the living room and out the front door. We are supposed to accept that someone starts out being very careful, but then all of a sudden goes to the other extreme of not giving a damn about being careful and leaving evidence all over the place.

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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

So it goes ....

Now he tries to shift the blame to his ex schoolmates. But Frank, your schoolmates don't have any interest in that case, only Curt, Edda and Chris. Remarkable how fast he pushes the delete button. He has that in common together with his friend Candace. I had a good laugh last time on her blog, the numeration of the comments leaves much to be desired: #373769, #373772, #373774, #373786, #373791, #373793, #373794, #373797, #373799 ....


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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

It's quite simple. The defence teams are using Frank to put out in the public arena that which they don't present in court, because it's too weak. And when instead presented in the public arena it has little chance of being knocked down as it would in court, because of course, when presented in a story one doesn't actually have to also provide the data or it's origins for scrutiny ;Hey, just take my word for it'. We know the defence like to do this. The recent article in Oggi in regard to the footprints is a great example. That article included supposedly, a nike footprint with glass in the sole supposedly from Rudy Guede, in Filomena's bedroom. Dempsey was going berserk over this footprint for days. Then, low and behold, when it comes to their footprint expert to testify in court, not a single mention of any footprint assigned to Guede in Filomena's room. It never existed! The defence have a track record of feeding false and fabricated information to friendly 'reporters', e.g, Oggi and FRANK.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

By the way, Raffaele's laptop required a password. How would the police have been able to log into his account on the 5th?

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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:58 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Brian S. wrote:
The question is, how much more DISINFORMATION has he propogated over the last 18 months where no-one was in a position to know otherwise?


According to Frank, Amanda's lawyers claimed the double DNA knife wouldn't be entered as evidence and Dr. Stefanoni stated that the DNA on the knife wasn't reliable:

"But a news denied by Amanda's defense which explained then privately that the Dna on the blade will not be admitted in the evidence. According to them Stefanoni stated that the DNA on the knife is NOT RELIABLE at all."

Frank and/or Amanda Knox's lawyers were lying. The double DNA knife was entered as evidence and Dr.Stefanoni testified at the trial that the one test she did "reliably" identified the DNA on the blade as Meredith's.

For me, Frank lost all credibility when I found out that he had admitted lying to Jonathan Martin, a journalist for the Seattle Times. Frank told him he was a film professor in Perugia. However, he told Julian Joyce from the BBC that he was a journalist. It's telling that Frank still hides behind his stage name and he has never specified which college or university or media organisations he works for. It seems Frank is a bit of a Walter Mitty.


Last edited by The Machine on Sun Sep 27, 2009 4:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Professor Snape


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 4:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Brian S. wrote:
Tiziano,

The best I can find in the English speaking press.

Quote:
Armando Finzi, an assistant in the Perugia police department's organized crimes unit, first discovered the knife in Sollecito's kitchen drawer. He said the first thing he noticed upon entering the place was a "strong smell of bleach." He opened the drawer and saw "very shiny and clean" knife lying on top of the silverware tray.

"It was the first knife I saw," he said. When pressed on cross-examination, said his "investigative intuition" led him to believe it was the murder weapon because it was compatible with the wound as it had been described to him.
With gloved hands, he placed the knife in a new police envelope, taped it shut with Scotch tape, then placed it inside a folder, he said. There were smaller and bigger knives in the drawer, but no others were taken into evidence from the kitchen, he said. A small knife was taken into evidence from Sollecito's bedroom, along with other items...


Andrea Vogt in the Seattle PI

Say what?

Sorry Andrea, but there is something missing here. :lol:

Investigative intuition eh?

Compatible with the wound, everbody has one, even the girls at the cottage, maybe it was missing from Amanda's set, maybe it didn't match Raffaele's other cutlery..........?????


"I know I didn't kill Meredith. That's all I know for sure."

Maybe if she says it enough she will convince herself. And, ah, Frank - you can kiss it:
Attachment:
homer ass.jpg


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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 5:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

The Machine wrote:
Brian S. wrote:
The question is, how much more DISINFORMATION has he propogated over the last 18 months where no-one was in a position to know otherwise?


According to Frank, Amanda's lawyers claimed the double DNA knife wouldn't be entered as evidence and Dr. Stefanoni stated that the DNA on the knife wasn't reliable:

"But a news denied by Amanda's defense which explained then privately that the Dna on the blade will not be admitted in the evidence. According to them Stefanoni stated that the DNA on the knife is NOT RELIABLE at all."

Frank and/or Amanda Knox's lawyers were lying. The double DNA knife was entered as evidence and Dr.Stefanoni testified at the trial that the one test she did "reliably" identified the DNA on the blade as Meredith's.

For me, Frank lost all credibility when I found out that he had admitted lying to Jonathan Martin, a journalist for the Seattle Times. Frank told him he was a film professor in Perugia. However, he told Julian Joyce from the BBC that he was a journalist. It's telling that Frank still hides behind his stage name and he has never specified which college or university or media organisations he works for. It seems Frank is a bit of a Walter Mitty.


For me, Frank is a dark and obscure presence in this case. Perhaps the reason he hides behind a pseudonym is that, in reality, he is just another nobody with an obscure past. It sounds as if his most recent employment, prior to setting up a tabloid blog and pretending to be a journalist, was renting rooms in a house to young college students. Wittingly or not, he has been an active participant in creating and maintaining the almost cult-like frenzy around the American suspect. How was he able to gain access to this suspect for his fanciful "interview" with her, which under intense questioning turned out not to be an actual interview? Everyone who has maintained open, friendly and ongoing access to this entourage has had to pay for it in some way, usually by running friendly stories of the Bob Graham type.

The real question about Frank is what he stands to gain from this venture. He certainly isn't doing it out of the goodness of his heart. What's in this for Frank?

Incidentally, if the goal of the defense teams was to muddy the waters and create a great deal of confusion surrounding many aspects of this case, then they have succeeded admirably. Will the Kercher family ever find out what happened to their cherished Meredith?

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 5:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Skep wrote:
The real question about Frank is what he stands to gain from this venture. He certainly isn't doing it out of the goodness of his heart. What's in this for Frank?


Well, his film of course :)

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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

What Frank doesn't realise is that his credibility is shot.

It's been obvious that he does get inside information and I've been prepared to accept that.

I've accepted the things he wrote about the evidence given in court.

I can accept that he reports those things with a slant towards his chosen side. A bit like reading the other sides version in politics.

But this is different.

Hey Frank, an old school contact of mine told me the world is going to end tomorrow, I've got an inside line.

He presented the information he gave "as if it was evidence given at the trial" - No it wasn't.

And the information he gave was demonstably false.

People must question everything else he has written which is "inside information".

Was it fact, or was it fiction?
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Offline martin


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

The Machine wrote:
Brian S. wrote:


According to Frank, Amanda's lawyers claimed the double DNA knife wouldn't be entered as evidence and Dr. Stefanoni stated that the DNA on the knife wasn't reliable:

"But a news denied by Amanda's defense which explained then privately that the Dna on the blade will not be admitted in the evidence. According to them Stefanoni stated that the DNA on the knife is NOT RELIABLE at all."


And what about the drops of mixed blood? Also not reliable? And what does he make of
rs's decision not to take the stand? Did anybody of the defense team or spin doctors come up with a reasonable explanation why an "innocent" defendant is not willing to stand up and fight for his freedom?
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Offline martin


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Incidentally, if the goal of the defense teams was to muddy the waters and create a great deal of confusion surrounding many aspects of this case, then they have succeeded admirably. Will the Kercher family ever find out what happened to their cherished Meredith?


Let's wait for RG's appeal trial, maybe he starts spilling the beans, if I am correct, he can
only gain by telling the truth, especially if he really played a minor part in the crime.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:47 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Martin wrote:
Let's wait for RG's appeal trial, maybe he starts spilling the beans, if I am correct, he can
only gain by telling the truth, especially if he really played a minor part in the crime.



Yes, but I fear it wasn't minor enough to warrant his getting a discount off of the 30 years he's already got so therefore, there's no real incentive for him to admit a minor role. Moreover, all the noises coming from his lawyers indicate that he's not going to admit any role, minor or otherwise. Rather, he's going to continue to deny any involvement.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

martin wrote:
The Machine wrote:
Brian S. wrote:


According to Frank, Amanda's lawyers claimed the double DNA knife wouldn't be entered as evidence and Dr. Stefanoni stated that the DNA on the knife wasn't reliable:

"But a news denied by Amanda's defense which explained then privately that the Dna on the blade will not be admitted in the evidence. According to them Stefanoni stated that the DNA on the knife is NOT RELIABLE at all."


And what about the drops of mixed blood? Also not reliable? And what does he make of
rs's decision not to take the stand? Did anybody of the defense team or spin doctors come up with a reasonable explanation why an "innocent" defendant is not willing to stand up and fight for his freedom?



Oddly, the various defense teams have had little to say about the DNA/blood mix.... and why no trace of Rudy Guede in the small bathroom - unless you count a footprint that can only be attributed to him if it is shrunken down in size?

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Offline jhansigirl


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

In the Vanity Fair article that Brian S posted a link to this morning there was mention of a 35-page report that explained why Amanda was refused bail and house arrest. Does anyone have a translated version of this report?

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

jhansigirl wrote:
In the Vanity Fair article that Brian S posted a link to this morning there was mention of a 35-page report that explained why Amanda was refused bail and house arrest. Does anyone have a translated version of this report?



Hi Jhanisgirl. here you go: AMANDA'S FAILED BID FOR HOUSE ARREST, JUNE 2008, JUDGE CLAUDIA MATTEINI PRESIDING

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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 - fair and impartial?   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Wittingly or not, he has been an active participant in creating and maintaining the almost cult-like frenzy around the American suspect.

One of the most “fair” and “impartial” [sarcasm] bloggers on the case, seen here conferring with Knox’s defense team (getting instructions?) June 13, 2009.

Iber-Press


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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Hey Guermantes, nice catch :)

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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 - Yoga or Falun Gong?   

Here is Amanda Knox practicing yoga in the Hall of Frescoes. Or is this Falun Gong? Before we know it, she will be serving green tea in small Chinese style cups to a panel of judges… I’m sorry to say but she has been behaving like a diva that has lost some of her marbles. One cannot help but think that this is a rather desperate exercise in attention seeking and self-dramatization, which is just so much visual and verbal theatrics*.

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* My opinion only.


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Offline jhansigirl


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Michael wrote:
jhansigirl wrote:
In the Vanity Fair article that Brian S posted a link to this morning there was mention of a 35-page report that explained why Amanda was refused bail and house arrest. Does anyone have a translated version of this report?



Hi Jhanisgirl. here you go: AMANDA'S FAILED BID FOR HOUSE ARREST, JUNE 2008, JUDGE CLAUDIA MATTEINI PRESIDING



Thanks Michael. th-)

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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

In this RAI NEWS24 VIDEO there are some close up shots of the computer screen showing the activity.

Maybe someone with a bigger and better monitor than the one I have can decypher something? sun-)

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Last edited by Tara on Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Interview with Francesco Sollecito.

Quote:
Two days ago, for the first time was absent at the trial, but the doctor Francesco Sollecito, Raffaele's father, is back in court on time to occupy his usual armchair from which follows closely the process in which a child accused of 'Meredith Kercher's murder along with Amanda Knox, the young American who was his girlfriend.

How's doctor?
"If it refers to the process I would say pretty good, do not you think?"

The parade of the texts of the defense now seems to have been favorable to Raffaele. Considers it impossible to disconnect the path of having the case of his son from that of Amanda?
"We have no agreed common strategy of the case, it is certain that the two boys were together, though not always together, so the defenses seem common. We chose to work at length on his advice to arrive at valuations unassailable lead.

Who should decide on a possible separation of the pathways?
"Not me, I decide that the conduct of the case, although it seems unified. Certainly, our experts have done in some cases also the interests of Amanda, but this does not mean anything. "


What moments functional even in the defense of Amanda?
"For example, the reconstruction made by our expert cell phone was good also to Amanda, another example of the bloody footprints found on the pad da Vinci. And Francesco Sollecito said: "As you see the experts have worked in absolute professionalism and autonomy, then when you are confronted with reports about Amanda has also acted in its interests."

So perfect harmony?
"I would not say this, because when you are faced with cases in which their work could be in conflict with the interests of Amanda and I am sure you do not stop."


For example?
"Always win when he said that the famous mark of blood could have belonged only to a female foot."


As a father, but also, now also an expert, believes that the position of Raffaele is very light?
"If we even got on the knife at the home of Raphael, Professor Tagliabracci, who explained well how Meredith's DNA could not be attributed to Raphael, also showed that traces of DNA of poor Meredith Kercher had virtually no such not be detectable.

Francesco Sollecito then closes thus: "From what has emerged from the examination of computers made by Antonio D'Ambrosio I wonder who has accessed the computer to my son to see the Ansa news at 9.07 when news of the ' arrest had already left and I have been warned by the police that Raphael had been placed in custody only after 14 hours. E'vergognoso.


Google translation of this story at Il Messaggero

So, according to Papa, they weren't always together and there is a problem with the small bloody footprints.
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Offline Yummi


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Does anyone know when the next hearing will take place?
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Yummi wrote:
Does anyone know when the next hearing will take place?



Hi Yummi. The next hearing is on the 9th October.

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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Ho hum:

Quote:
"The technicians of postal police confirmed that there is no trace of tampering or deletion of data on the PC of Raffaele Sollecito, and there is no evidence to say otherwise."
To emphasize this were the lawyer Francesco Maresca and Serena Perna, as a civil party representing the family of Meredith Kercher, commenting on the testimony of the defense of the young computer consultant from Puglia. "On the evening of the first of November, one of the murder - argued the attorney - no one working at the computer reminder and the interaction detected by the consultant at midnight and 58 minutes may well be compatible with the murder as it was described.....


Google translation from this story at Il Messaggero
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Try this on for a theory:

Quote:
........The description of the facts as represented by the prosecution and substantially confirmed by the gup has suggested the presence and involvement in the murder of three people. During the investigations, no other person has been identified as possible participants in the event a crime, if not the two boys Knox and Sollecito. Their eventual acquittal would clear the whole building indictment, involving also the decision to Guede, who also will be subject to appeal proceedings in November. Overall, the picture appears to hold circumstantial hypothesis of a participation of more people in the murder of Meredith and the prime suspect for several reasons appear to coincide precisely with the figures of Guede of Sollecito and Knox. In contrast, however, remains the anomaly of the lack of evidence of the presence of the boy in the Puglia and the American Kercher's room. It seems unlikely that two people who participate in an erotic game, which ended with a murder for the resistance by the victim, leave no trace organic, at least one hair of their presence.
Requires that the circle is closed by giving a logical explanation to this important relief, heavily defeated by the defense. It is conceivable, and perhaps in this sense we can imagine a supplement to the hearing, that the mode of killing the girl's English are different from those previously thought, such as being killed in another room of the house and then transported to his room and left her there dying, with the door closed.

University Lecturer
Perugia


Google translation of this story from Il Messaggero
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Brian -

That's an interesting theory. But I can't see how it would work due to the blood spurts in Meredith's room (notably on the wardrobe). Therefore the theory is lacking.

Unless... the stabbing took place in another area of the cottage. However, when the knife was struck it wasn't withdrawn. That acts as a plug, or damn as it were. There was little spray or outward bleeding. Meredith was then dragged into the bedroom and forced down on her knees in front of the wardrobe, at which point two of the assailants stand back while the third (Rudy Guede) grabs a hold of the knife and pulls it out. This withdrawl, especially as in this short period of it being in place it has allowed pressure to build up, results in the spurts. At this point the victim is incapacitated, not only because of the wound itself, but the withdrawl of the knife has allowed the free flowing of blood into throat and lungs. At this stage, the concentration of the victim is on trying to breath, rather then standing up or going anywhere. Since in this scenario it was Rudy that withdrew the knife, it was he that was spattered with blood rather then the other two assailants and as we know, his clothes were later dumped in Germany.

Does that work?

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Offline martin


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Michael wrote:
Martin wrote:
Let's wait for RG's appeal trial, maybe he starts spilling the beans, if I am correct, he can
only gain by telling the truth, especially if he really played a minor part in the crime.



Yes, but I fear it wasn't minor enough to warrant his getting a discount off of the 30 years he's already got so therefore, there's no real incentive for him to admit a minor role. Moreover, all the noises coming from his lawyers indicate that he's not going to admit any role, minor or otherwise. Rather, he's going to continue to deny any involvement.

In the unlikely case that either ak or rs start telling the truth: would they be rewarded with
a discount (mitigating circumstances), or is it already too late for them?
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

And here is some real information.

About the "too low" reported by the machine on Meredith's DNA on the knife blade.

People with knowledge of DNA testing have said that despite the "low amplitude of the peaks", because "of the low level of noise" that was Meredith's DNA. Even Frank couldn't find anyone to say otherwise.

But the "too low" reported by the machine wasn't refering to the graphs, it was referring to the volume of genetic material Stephononi was asking it to work with.

Quote:
...the forensic geneticist Sarah Gino has tacked a sort of indictment of the forensic biologist Patrizia Stefanoni.
First, the amount is too low. Not only that, it is even much lower than Patrizia Stefanoni said in court during the preliminary hearing that led to the conviction of Rudy Guede and the prosecution of Amanda and Raffaele. "There are discrepancies between the report that the lab has given us and that stated at the preliminary hearing judge. There the Stefanoni spoke of a few hundred picograms, but to see the result of the machine are much less, since it says "too low", volume too low. ".....


Google translation of yet another story from Il Messaggero

I know exactly what I think about this. 40 years in tech.

Manufacturers will always "underspec the performance of their machines". They are afraid of legal comebacks.

So Stephononi programmed her machine to work with a smaller sample than "the default minimum volume level guaranteed by the manufacturer."

It doesn't mean the machine couldn't do what she was asking it to do. It obviously did it very well.

Any comments Nicki, or someone else who knows?


EDIT to add:

Perhaps they should call in a senior techy from the manufacturer to give an opinion. :lol:

This is crap.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Brian wrote:
erhaps they should call in a senior techy from the manufacturer to give an opinion.


Actually, it speaks volumes that the defence haven't called in a senior engineer from the manufacturer. If Stefanoni was so far out of line, one would have thought that an engineer from the manufacturer would have been one of the first ports of call for defence investigators. A phone call is all that's required to start with. So where's the engineer in the defence's role call of witnesses? Perhaps the defence never included them because they didn't like what he/she had to say. Their absence says it all.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

martin wrote:
Michael wrote:
Martin wrote:
Let's wait for RG's appeal trial, maybe he starts spilling the beans, if I am correct, he can
only gain by telling the truth, especially if he really played a minor part in the crime.



Yes, but I fear it wasn't minor enough to warrant his getting a discount off of the 30 years he's already got so therefore, there's no real incentive for him to admit a minor role. Moreover, all the noises coming from his lawyers indicate that he's not going to admit any role, minor or otherwise. Rather, he's going to continue to deny any involvement.

In the unlikely case that either ak or rs start telling the truth: would they be rewarded with
a discount (mitigating circumstances), or is it already too late for them?



No, that wouldn't have any effect on length of sentence. It may however give grounds for sooner secure home visits and parole.

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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

From the earlier Il Messagero article today:

"Non ci sono tracce d'effrazione e nessun altro, oltre alla padrona di casa e allo stesso Raffaele, aveva le chiavi."

"There are no traces of forced entry and no other, besides the hostess and at the same Raffaele, had the keys."

Dare I say "yeah right"? huh-) OK! OK! Just my opinion!

Doc Sollecito seems pretty controlling and aware. As he watched his son, and especially his son's new girlfriend being questioned daily by the cops (42 hours wasn't it?), wouldn't he think it prudent to make an extra key to Raf's place? You'd think big sister Vanessa, the policewoman would have an inkling of what was going on and perhaps suggest this... Just in case what happened (Raffaele's arrest), happened.

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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:11 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Michael wrote:
It's quite simple. The defence teams are using Frank to put out in the public arena that which they don't present in court, because it's too weak. And when instead presented in the public arena it has little chance of being knocked down as it would in court, because of course, when presented in a story one doesn't actually have to also provide the data or it's origins for scrutiny ;Hey, just take my word for it'. We know the defence like to do this. The recent article in Oggi in regard to the footprints is a great example. That article included supposedly, a nike footprint with glass in the sole supposedly from Rudy Guede, in Filomena's bedroom. Dempsey was going berserk over this footprint for days. Then, low and behold, when it comes to their footprint expert to testify in court, not a single mention of any footprint assigned to Guede in Filomena's room. It never existed! The defence have a track record of feeding false and fabricated information to friendly 'reporters', e.g, Oggi and FRANK.


What puzzles me is that with all the money the Knox family says they have been spending, they couldn't come up with something more professional than two blogs that are dedicated to drag the Italian police and the Italian court through the mire.

I am sure that Chris Mellas will be eternally thankful for the dumb comment from Frank, admitting the evidence discussed in his article is not from court, but from his own archive. tou-)
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Offline Tiziano


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:05 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Brian S. wrote:
The most detailed information to date on the computer activity:

Google translation of this page at Corriere Del'Umbria

There is a lot of detailed information here, anyone up for a real translation??

What a good reporter this man is. Very precise and packed with detail.
A MYSTERY BREAKS OUT ABOUT THE COMPUTER

The defence of the young man from Puglia: :"Someone used the PC while Rafffaele was being held at Police Headquarters."

Perugia 27/09/2009
From Corriere dell'Umbria by Elio Clero Bertoldi

Who worked on Raffaele's laptop, an Apple Mac Book Pro on the night of the November 5th to 6th, 2007, while the student from Bari was at Police Headquarters, first as a person with knowledge of the facts and then as a suspect, to be immediately transferred to Capanne prison accused of the homicide of Meredith Kercher and complicity in sexual assault against the English student? A mystery breaks out in the Hall of Murals in this never-ending trial full of surprises. The mystery was born after the expert computer examination carried out by Michele Gigli and Antonio d'Ambrosio (the latter presented the document in court), analysing the hard disk of the suspect's laptop, obtained as the forensic copy as well as log files by the Postal Police from the company Fastweb. Analysing the activity on the laptop between 22.00 of the 5th November and 13.30 on the 6th November, the experts reconstructed the activity in two phases.

They claim, "At first, it is presumed that the user is Raffaele Sollecito, the owner. Subsequently the computer was used by an unknown person, since as can be seen by the trial records, RS could not have been present at home at that period of time (he was actually at the police station - ed). The owner's use of the computer ended at 20.00 on November 5th with the use of the Skype programme, in our opinion."
From 22.05 the experts traced accesses to the browser Safari, to the applications Messenger, Skype, Adobe Golive Cs2 (22.10), the opening of the Mail application (23.07), Finder (00.58), Itunes, Firefox. Then they start again with a new access to Safari(9.07), Firefox (with the opening of Ansa page with the title "English girl murdered: arrests made" and the subtitle "Persons involved identified, press conference at 11.00"). It is not known who clicked on to read the agency notice or make the other interactions. But it is not unlikely that the mystery will soon be solved.

The consultants also undertook the analysis of the computer activity on the night of the crime, between 21.00 on November 1st and 5.00 in the morning of November 2nd.
"Analysing the printouts provided by the server company for Fastweb spa, we identified considerable traffic, principally on P2P (PeertoPeer)," Gigli and D'Ambrosio claim. "In fact, it in noted that the computer was continuously on and connected to the web to allow software such as Azureus and aMule to continue to download/upload selected files. There is nonetheless present, although to a lesser degree, "www.http" traffic. Part of the web traffic is automatic, auto-generated at regular intervals by the browser Firefox to IP referencing Google and Mozilla; but we have identified other traffic as well, for at 00.58.50 there is traffic to the home page http://www.apple.com. This means, in our opinion, that there was access to the international Apple site at the time noted by a user. Therefore at 00.58.50 on November 2nd there was a human interaction with the computer."

There are interactions with the films Amélie and Stardust. This is not all. The consultants, on instructions from Sollecito's defence, also analysed the movements on the computer on the afternoon of October 30th (from 15.00 to 18.30, to be exact). And at these times as well, accesses have been identified which witness the use of the computer that afternoon. The two experts add, "We believe it is relevant to note that on October 30th daylight saving/summer time was effective, so that sunrise was at 6.11 and sunset at 17.36." It is easy for the defence to conclude that the witness who claims to have seen Sollecito in the street between the cottage and Piazza Grimana with Amanda, Meredith and Rudy Guede, while it was still light, was mistaken. Thus the advice represents a sort of landmine for the prosecution theory, even if the PMs Mignini and Comodi and the civil complainants immediately made it clear that the conclusions of the Postal Police experts (present in court next to the magistrates) were quite different.

The genetics expert Sara Gino was also present in court as advisor for the Knox defence and went back to the question of contamination of the DNA traces. "The risk exists and must be seriously considered," she claimed.
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Offline Jumpy


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:39 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Re keys and access to Raffaele's apartment and inneuendos. Is his defense perhaps instead implying something about Amanda? A break in the contract?
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Offline Brogan


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:42 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Nell wrote:
Michael wrote:
It's quite simple. The defence teams are using Frank to put out in the public arena that which they don't present in court, because it's too weak. And when instead presented in the public arena it has little chance of being knocked down as it would in court, because of course, when presented in a story one doesn't actually have to also provide the data or it's origins for scrutiny ;Hey, just take my word for it'. We know the defence like to do this. The recent article in Oggi in regard to the footprints is a great example. That article included supposedly, a nike footprint with glass in the sole supposedly from Rudy Guede, in Filomena's bedroom. Dempsey was going berserk over this footprint for days. Then, low and behold, when it comes to their footprint expert to testify in court, not a single mention of any footprint assigned to Guede in Filomena's room. It never existed! The defence have a track record of feeding false and fabricated information to friendly 'reporters', e.g, Oggi and FRANK.


What puzzles me is that with all the money the Knox family says they have been spending, they couldn't come up with something more professional than two blogs that are dedicated to drag the Italian police and the Italian court through the mire.

I am sure that Chris Mellas will be eternally thankful for the dumb comment from Frank, admitting the evidence discussed in his article is not from court, but from his own archive. tou-)


I suspect that The family knew it was a lost cause from the kick off, Marriot have been courting the home press and I would not be surprised that post conviction the blogs will be used in the US to show some sort of international support for a wrongful conviction. I would bet that both Frank and Candace will delete all pro guilty posts and use an archive of pro Amanda posts to generate some outrage at home in an effort to pressure the government to get involved as a long term stratagy.

As for the contentious issue of the use of the computer. Raff is a young man who had only had a girl friend for a few days. If I was about to have the derbys slapped on my wrists and dragged off to the pokey and knowing the police would be having a good look through my computer I would have a mate pop by to delete my porn stash.

I would hazard a guess that as a sexually inexperienced 20 something Raff would have a substantial collection of cyber grot on his computer that he would rather not have examined by the police. Has anything been mentioned about the full contents of his computer because if he hasn't got any porn hidden away in there I would find it a bit odd. I know many members ( oop's, did you see what I did there ) may find this a bit contentious but think about it he would fall into the category of internet porn producers target audience. The internet is the young man's behind the wardrobe/ under the bed for the 21st century.

As for Frank and his dubious qualifications, employment and experience, I go with Michael, he has walt written all over him. That's the problem with the internet anyone can claim to be an expert on anything thanks to google, Chris Mellas has proved that on Franks sewer, what is he today anonymous lawyer, ex cop, DNA expert, he has had more characters than Mr Ben ( google that one if you live outside the UK) lets face it Candace calls herself Italian woman at the table, has Seattle been moved to Italy, no so she is doing a bit of walting as well. Pardon my rambling, this is the first bit of free time I've had in ages and it has involved beer, non the less I'm really enjoying the quality of the posting on this site, keep it up everyone.
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Offline Tiziano


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:58 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Translation of article referred to by Brian (28/09/009 7.27 am AuEastTime)

IL MESSAGGERO

Sunday 27th September,2009

By ITALO CARMIGNANI and VANNA UGOLINI

One is quick to say that science is exact, something about which there is little to argue. Yet on that terribly small sample 36B which, according to the prosecution, nails Amanda Knox as the assassin of Meredith Kercher, there are non-stop sensational developments. It was known that the DNA found on the blade and identified as belonging to Meredith by the police scientific branch was in a small quantity, but in the light of documents released to the defence at the last moment on the July 30th by the scientific branch, the forensic genetic expert Sara Gino has tacked together a sort of accusation against the biologist for the police scientific branch, Patrizia Stefanoni.
First of all, that quantity which is too low. Not only this, but it is much lower than what Patrizia Stefanoni declared in court, during the preliminary hearing which led to the condemnation of Rudy Guede and to the indictment of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito.
"There are discrepancies between the report that the scientific branch gave us and what was declared to the GUP. There Stefanoni talked of some hundreds of picograms, but seeing the result from the machine there are far fewer, since there it is written 'too low', too low a quantity."
Secondly, "Both the sample B36 on the knife and another sample C gave the same result, but sample C was judged to be negative, not able to be judged, while sample B was judged to be positive. Why this disparity?
Thirdly, "There are no dates for the days when the DNA was analysed." Why is this important? "Because you cannot see how many analyses of DNA from the same subject have been made, therefore I cannot evaluate what was the risk of contamination on that day. Contamination is all the more possible the smaller the quantities of DNA."
Sara Gino is also aiming to demolish the analyses of the footprints found with luminol in the corridor of the crime house. "We were not told that first of all the prints were treated with a substance which should have indicated whether they were blood, and the result was very uncertain." Therefore, according to Gino, the probability that an assassin with with bloody feet left those prints "goes down to 50%." And Gino's criticisms rained down on other technical procedures for revealing DNA.
As far as witnesses are concerned, the expert who analysed Raffaele's computer dismantled the words of a witness who was sure he saw Amanda (in a red coat which no-one had ever seen her wearing), Raffaele, Rudy and Meredith together on October 30th, walking along Via della Pergola. "Impossible. That day, at that time, Raffaele was on his computer."
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:17 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Tiziano wrote:
Brian S. wrote:
The most detailed information to date on the computer activity:

Google translation of this page at Corriere Del'Umbria

There is a lot of detailed information here, anyone up for a real translation??

What a good reporter this man is. Very precise and packed with detail.
A MYSTERY BREAKS OUT ABOUT THE COMPUTER

The defence of the young man from Puglia: :"Someone used the PC while Rafffaele was being held at Police Headquarters."

Perugia 27/09/2009
From Corriere dell'Umbria by Elio Clero Bertoldi

Who worked on Raffaele's laptop, an Apple Mac Book Pro on the night of the November 5th to 6th, 2007, while the student from Bari was at Police Headquarters, first as a person with knowledge of the facts and then as a suspect, to be immediately transferred to Capanne prison accused of the homicide of Meredith Kercher and complicity in sexual assault against the English student? A mystery breaks out in the Hall of Murals in this never-ending trial full of surprises. The mystery was born after the expert computer examination carried out by Michele Gigli and Antonio d'Ambrosio (the latter presented the document in court), analysing the hard disk of the suspect's laptop, obtained as the forensic copy as well as log files by the Postal Police from the company Fastweb. Analysing the activity on the laptop between 22.00 of the 5th November and 13.30 on the 6th November, the experts reconstructed the activity in two phases.

They claim, "At first, it is presumed that the user is Raffaele Sollecito, the owner. Subsequently the computer was used by an unknown person, since as can be seen by the trial records, RS could not have been present at home at that period of time (he was actually at the police station - ed). The owner's use of the computer ended at 20.00 on November 5th with the use of the Skype programme, in our opinion."
From 22.05 the experts traced accesses to the browser Safari, to the applications Messenger, Skype, Adobe Golive Cs2 (22.10), the opening of the Mail application (23.07), Finder (00.58), Itunes, Firefox. Then they start again with a new access to Safari(9.07), Firefox (with the opening of Ansa page with the title "English girl murdered: arrests made" and the subtitle "Persons involved identified, press conference at 11.00"). It is not known who clicked on to read the agency notice or make the other interactions. But it is not unlikely that the mystery will soon be solved.

The consultants also undertook the analysis of the computer activity on the night of the crime, between 21.00 on November 1st and 5.00 in the morning of November 2nd.
"Analysing the printouts provided by the server company for Fastweb spa, we identified considerable traffic, principally on P2P (PeertoPeer)," Gigli and D'Ambrosio claim. "In fact, it in noted that the computer was continuously on and connected to the web to allow software such as Azureus and aMule to continue to download/upload selected files. There is nonetheless present, although to a lesser degree, "www.http" traffic. Part of the web traffic is automatic, auto-generated at regular intervals by the browser Firefox to IP referencing Google and Mozilla; but we have identified other traffic as well, for at 00.58.50 there is traffic to the home page http://www.apple.com. This means, in our opinion, that there was access to the international Apple site at the time noted by a user. Therefore at 00.58.50 on November 2nd there was a human interaction with the computer."

There are interactions with the films Amélie and Stardust. This is not all. The consultants, on instructions from Sollecito's defence, also analysed the movements on the computer on the afternoon of October 30th (from 15.00 to 18.30, to be exact). And at these times as well, accesses have been identified which witness the use of the computer that afternoon. The two experts add, "We believe it is relevant to note that on October 30th daylight saving/summer time was effective, so that sunrise was at 6.11 and sunset at 17.36." It is easy for the defence to conclude that the witness who claims to have seen Sollecito in the street between the cottage and Piazza Grimana with Amanda, Meredith and Rudy Guede, while it was still light, was mistaken. Thus the advice represents a sort of landmine for the prosecution theory, even if the PMs Mignini and Comodi and the civil complainants immediately made it clear that the conclusions of the Postal Police experts (present in court next to the magistrates) were quite different.

The genetics expert Sara Gino was also present in court as advisor for the Knox defence and went back to the question of contamination of the DNA traces. "The risk exists and must be seriously considered," she claimed.


Thanks, Tiziano, for posting this.

Nonetheless, I can't see what the computer activity proves. It is not so much mystery than misery. Best case scenario - and I am referring to what I read at Frank's shocking blog - is that there was computer activity long before and long after the murder took place and the next day, shortly before the two accused went from Raffaele's home to the cottage where they were surprised by the postal police. None of what I read so far contradicted the evidence incriminating Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox.

Now Brogan's theory is very interesting and it makes sense too, that someone used the computer during the time Raffaele was questioned by the police. Possibly his sister or someone Raffaele can trust. It is not believable that someone unrelated to Raffaele used his computer and had access to his apartment. Anything else is not believable. The defence seems to imply that someone entered Raffaele's apartment while he was being interrogated and manipulated (deleted) log files in order to incriminate Raffaele. How far fetched is that?
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:20 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

More information (or misinformation?) about computer activity from FRANK.

Can you say, wishful thinking?
Quote:
At 00:58 something different happens. An access to apple.com, for trying to open a file with iTunes, a song, probably. The difference with all the others is that it's not self-generated: is a human interaction. It's just 4 seconds interaction, it seems like nothing. But it's a click, a finger pressed a key: someone was there. Amanda, Raffaele, or Amanda and Raffaele, were there. And the window to go to kill gets narrower and narrower.

What does it prove anyway? Maresca, the family lawyer, contended that there was general agreement that Kercher died between 10 pm Nov. 1 and midnight. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article3791114.ece by Richard Owen

The suspects had ample time to do the deed, leave the scene, discard evidence (cell phones, credit cards, etc) and return to RS’s apartment around 1 am, then think things through and go back to the cottage to do
mop-)
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:39 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Nell wrote:

"Possibly his sister or someone Raffaele can trust. It is not believable that someone unrelated to Raffaele used his computer and had access to his apartment. Anything else is not believable."


I agree - Raffaele's father or sister wouldn't necessarily need a key to get in would they? Raffaele could have called and given them the heads up about him being asked to come into the police station again, then left the door to his apartment unlocked so they could get in. Or, someone (the landlady?) could have let them in. Or, as Brogan suggested, Raffaele could have left it open for one of his friends to tidy things up.

You'd think with his sister's connections in the carabinieri she would have a pulse on what was happening? Has anyone seen where she has ever been interviewed...or even photographed? Has she been in the courtroom?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 4:07 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

It appears that Candace "Columbo" Dempsey has already solved the mystery of who was on Sollecito's computer November 5-6:

From the land of deletions:

"Posted by Candace Dempsey at 9/27/09 7:53 p.m.

Yes, I did mean Nov. 2. I am the worse typist, as we've all seen. Thanks for catching that.

Also, if the officer who was at the flat on nov. 5/6 is one of the knife finders, then that also makes the claims of correct procedure, no contamination, harder to sustain."

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 4:22 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Tara wrote:
It appears that Candace "Columbo" Dempsey has already solved the mystery of who was on Sollecito's computer November 5-6:

From the land of deletions:

"Posted by Candace Dempsey at 9/27/09 7:53 p.m.

Yes, I did mean Nov. 2. I am the worse typist, as we've all seen. Thanks for catching that.

Also, if the officer who was at the flat on nov. 5/6 is one of the knife finders, then that also makes the claims of correct procedure, no contamination, harder to sustain."


This sounds like super JV high school debate talent at work.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 4:25 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Brogan wrote:
Nell wrote:
Michael wrote:
It's quite simple. The defence teams are using Frank to put out in the public arena that which they don't present in court, because it's too weak. And when instead presented in the public arena it has little chance of being knocked down as it would in court, because of course, when presented in a story one doesn't actually have to also provide the data or it's origins for scrutiny ;Hey, just take my word for it'. We know the defence like to do this. The recent article in Oggi in regard to the footprints is a great example. That article included supposedly, a nike footprint with glass in the sole supposedly from Rudy Guede, in Filomena's bedroom. Dempsey was going berserk over this footprint for days. Then, low and behold, when it comes to their footprint expert to testify in court, not a single mention of any footprint assigned to Guede in Filomena's room. It never existed! The defence have a track record of feeding false and fabricated information to friendly 'reporters', e.g, Oggi and FRANK.


What puzzles me is that with all the money the Knox family says they have been spending, they couldn't come up with something more professional than two blogs that are dedicated to drag the Italian police and the Italian court through the mire.

I am sure that Chris Mellas will be eternally thankful for the dumb comment from Frank, admitting the evidence discussed in his article is not from court, but from his own archive. tou-)


I suspect that The family knew it was a lost cause from the kick off, Marriot have been courting the home press and I would not be surprised that post conviction the blogs will be used in the US to show some sort of international support for a wrongful conviction. I would bet that both Frank and Candace will delete all pro guilty posts and use an archive of pro Amanda posts to generate some outrage at home in an effort to pressure the government to get involved as a long term stratagy.

As for the contentious issue of the use of the computer. Raff is a young man who had only had a girl friend for a few days. If I was about to have the derbys slapped on my wrists and dragged off to the pokey and knowing the police would be having a good look through my computer I would have a mate pop by to delete my porn stash.

I would hazard a guess that as a sexually inexperienced 20 something Raff would have a substantial collection of cyber grot on his computer that he would rather not have examined by the police. Has anything been mentioned about the full contents of his computer because if he hasn't got any porn hidden away in there I would find it a bit odd. I know many members ( oop's, did you see what I did there ) may find this a bit contentious but think about it he would fall into the category of internet porn producers target audience. The internet is the young man's behind the wardrobe/ under the bed for the 21st century.

As for Frank and his dubious qualifications, employment and experience, I go with Michael, he has walt written all over him. That's the problem with the internet anyone can claim to be an expert on anything thanks to google, Chris Mellas has proved that on Franks sewer, what is he today anonymous lawyer, ex cop, DNA expert, he has had more characters than Mr Ben ( google that one if you live outside the UK) lets face it Candace calls herself Italian woman at the table, has Seattle been moved to Italy, no so she is doing a bit of walting as well. Pardon my rambling, this is the first bit of free time I've had in ages and it has involved beer, non the less I'm really enjoying the quality of the posting on this site, keep it up everyone.


I don't know how easy this would be to locate, but I seem to remember that Sollecito Sr. was either in town or close to being in town shortly after the murder occurred. This would have been in press reports that appeared much earlier, of course.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 4:32 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Tara wrote:
Nell wrote:

"Possibly his sister or someone Raffaele can trust. It is not believable that someone unrelated to Raffaele used his computer and had access to his apartment. Anything else is not believable."


I agree - Raffaele's father or sister wouldn't necessarily need a key to get in would they? Raffaele could have called and given them the heads up about him being asked to come into the police station again, then left the door to his apartment unlocked so they could get in. Or, someone (the landlady?) could have let them in. Or, as Brogan suggested, Raffaele could have left it open for one of his friends to tidy things up.

You'd think with his sister's connections in the carabinieri she would have a pulse on what was happening? Has anyone seen where she has ever been interviewed...or even photographed? Has she been in the courtroom?


It was also reported in the press at some point that this apartment was owned by Raffaele's family.

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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:24 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Tara wrote:
Nell wrote:

"Possibly his sister or someone Raffaele can trust. It is not believable that someone unrelated to Raffaele used his computer and had access to his apartment. Anything else is not believable."


I agree - Raffaele's father or sister wouldn't necessarily need a key to get in would they? Raffaele could have called and given them the heads up about him being asked to come into the police station again, then left the door to his apartment unlocked so they could get in. Or, someone (the landlady?) could have let them in. Or, as Brogan suggested, Raffaele could have left it open for one of his friends to tidy things up.

You'd think with his sister's connections in the carabinieri she would have a pulse on what was happening? Has anyone seen where she has ever been interviewed...or even photographed? Has she been in the courtroom?


It was also reported in the press at some point that this apartment was owned by Raffaele's family.


I guess that means we found a believable explanation for the computer activity without Raffaele being present at his apartment. angel-)
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:11 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Tara wrote:
Nell wrote:

"Possibly his sister or someone Raffaele can trust. It is not believable that someone unrelated to Raffaele used his computer and had access to his apartment. Anything else is not believable."


I agree - Raffaele's father or sister wouldn't necessarily need a key to get in would they? Raffaele could have called and given them the heads up about him being asked to come into the police station again, then left the door to his apartment unlocked so they could get in. Or, someone (the landlady?) could have let them in. Or, as Brogan suggested, Raffaele could have left it open for one of his friends to tidy things up.

You'd think with his sister's connections in the carabinieri she would have a pulse on what was happening? Has anyone seen where she has ever been interviewed...or even photographed? Has she been in the courtroom?



You can bet they did have keys though, especially considering it was an apartment bought for him by daddy and we know how he likes to micro manage, with Italian families being very tight anyway.

And really, why would police use his computer to surf the Net and read about the crime? They'd know more about it then the press did and they have their own computers for that anyway. If they were going on his computer to look for evidence, the only plausible reason for their going on there anyway, that's what they'd have done...looked for evidence, not gone surfing the Internet. Turtle Dove on the Smog mooted his theory that they surfed media pages on the crime so as to incriminate Raffaele, but that's weak and doesn't work anyway. How could surfing media articles on the crime days after the murder incriminate Raffaele in any way? One would 'expect' Raffaele, since he knew the victim and it happened in his town where he was living, to be interested in the case and to read the news on it everyday, probably just like everyone else in Perugia. So that doesn't work. At the same time, why would the police have wanted to fit Raffaele up anyway, especially at that very early stage? None of that makes any kind of sense. Moreover, the records of computer activity on the night of the 1st remains anyway (the file sharing etc). One doesn't just go in and surgically remove certain specific activity from an evening but leave the rest, it's just not that easy, especially as you've also got to mess around in the I/O record (that's not a simple task). That requires a specialist, not a standard detective (and it was just detectives working on the case at that point). It's far more complex then simply deleting a few cookies and browser history. Moreover, if Raffaele had gone online on the first, that would be on record with his ISP. If he'd just messed around without connecting, that'd be in the I/O record.

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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:28 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Tara wrote:
Nell wrote:

"Possibly his sister or someone Raffaele can trust. It is not believable that someone unrelated to Raffaele used his computer and had access to his apartment. Anything else is not believable."


I agree - Raffaele's father or sister wouldn't necessarily need a key to get in would they? Raffaele could have called and given them the heads up about him being asked to come into the police station again, then left the door to his apartment unlocked so they could get in. Or, someone (the landlady?) could have let them in. Or, as Brogan suggested, Raffaele could have left it open for one of his friends to tidy things up.

You'd think with his sister's connections in the carabinieri she would have a pulse on what was happening? Has anyone seen where she has ever been interviewed...or even photographed? Has she been in the courtroom?


Hi Tara,

Here is a pic of Vanessa Sollecito


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
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Offline Tiziano


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:33 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Nell wrote:
Perugia 27/09/2009
From Corriere dell'Umbria by Elio Clero Bertoldi



Thanks, Tiziano, for posting this. (translation of Corriere dell"Umbria article by Elio Clero Bertoldi

Nonetheless, I can't see what the computer activity proves. It is not so much mystery than misery. Best case scenario - and I am referring to what I read at Frank's shocking blog - is that there was computer activity long before and long after the murder took place and the next day, shortly before the two accused went from Raffaele's home to the cottage where they were surprised by the postal police. None of what I read so far contradicted the evidence incriminating Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox.

Now Brogan's theory is very interesting and it makes sense too, that someone used the computer during the time Raffaele was questioned by the police. Possibly his sister or someone Raffaele can trust. It is not believable that someone unrelated to Raffaele used his computer and had access to his apartment. Anything else is not believable. The defence seems to imply that someone entered Raffaele's apartment while he was being interrogated and manipulated (deleted) log files in order to incriminate Raffaele. How far fetched is that?


Who worked on Raffaele's laptop, an Apple Mac Book Pro on the night of the November 5th to 6th, 2007, while the student from Bari was at Police Headquarters, first as a person with knowledge of the facts and then as a suspect, to be immediately transferred to Capanne prison accused of the homicide of Meredith Kercher and complicity in sexual assault against the English student?
Nell, I think that the "mystery" referred to in the title is the question of just who used Sollecito's computer on November 5th - 6th, when he was already on remand in gaol. The journalist starts off his account with this question (above in bold).
As far as the other use, on the night of the murder and the morning after, there is as you say nothing much to help the defence here: there is ample time in the interim for the events involving Knox and Sollecito, as outlined by the prosecution, to have taken place. However, there is now some doubt about the reliability of the witness who claimed to have seen Knox, Sollecito, Guede and Meredith together in Via della Fontana early in the evening of October 30th while it was still light.

This is obviously yet another attempt to characterise the police as unprincipled and unprofessional, by inferring that they were involved in entering Sollecito's flat and interfering with his computer, resulting in the loss of exculpatory evidence that he was at home the night of the murder, working on his thesis. Furthermore, it is an implicit criticism of the Postal Police, who did not find what the defence IT experts have turned up.

But it is not unlikely that the mystery will soon be solved. This sentence in the second para hints that all will be revealed, soon! I guess that Bertoldi was given a briefing by the defence lawyers and that this is the source of the hint. So even if it is manifestly untrue that the police were involved, and the fact is that someone helping Sollecito was the "mystery" person, this will probably be difficult to prove. Thus the defence will have clouded the issue and hope that they have out some doubts in the minds of the civil judges at least.

The continued criticism of Patrizia Stefanoni and the Scientifica probably has the same aim, although I don't have enough scientific knowledge to offer an opinion on this. It just appears to me that the defence tactics since the resumption of the trial have been aimed principally at casting doubt on the prosecution evidence and attacking the credibility of the scientific, investigative and postal police.
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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Hi Jools!

Thanks for the picture of Vanessa. I knew you'd come up with the goods!

She certainly resembles her brother, doesn't she?




TIZIANO!

Thank you so much for all of your great translations! th-)

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Tara wrote:

"Thanks for the picture of Vanessa. I knew you'd come up with the goods!

She certainly resembles her brother, doesn't she?"

I think she looks alot like her father.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

THE TODAY SHOW this morning with Keith Miller reporting and Meredith Viera interviews Curt Knox.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

The latest from Button, at the Eclectic Chapbook blog.
She does a nice job of unpacking the "defense firecracker" that was thrown in at the last minute on Saturday:

Monday, September 28
Mez: Defense Firecracker (3#) -
Meredith Kercher Murder Case -

Grab yer smelling salts, Granny!
The Sacred Chain may have been broken . . .

Arguably, it's not nice to throw a legal firecracker into the courtroom just before ending your case, but that seems to be what Defense did on Saturday. Dramatic? Yes. But it leaves people feeling feeling uneasy and unresolved.

First, Defense DNA expert Sarah Gino challenged the validity of the DNA evidence on the butcher knife. I am not equipped to argue about DNA here. The Court may invite an outside, independent DNA expert to contribute an opinion. Moving on...

Computer expert Antonio D'Ambrosio for the Defense testified that "someone had used the young man's computer, which the defence said might have erased data that could prove his innocence."

Let's unpack this. Defense is making two claims here.

The first allegation is that the Sacred Chain of Custody was broken here. In a murder case, evidence must be secured, sequestered and signed for. It is being alleged that the Sollecito computer was left somehow unsecured and, as a result, it suffered outside interference. That's very bad.

But Defense goes on to make yet a second claim:

"Whoever it was cancelled valuable data that showed
Raffaele was on the computer the night of the murder."

Let's clarify this. There are at least 3
file "cabinets" involved, as far as I know:

-- 1) the Temporary Internet Cache file cabinet,
-- 2) the Browser History Log,
-- 3) and the Connections Log Viewer.

Even if the Temporary Cache of Internet material was overwritten, that operation would not impact the other two cabinets which are entirely separate. Defense's claim that the history of that computer's usage was "cancelled" does not seem credible to me. I'm not a computer whiz, but it looks like double talk to me.

Just short of dripping a bottle of nail polish onto the naked hard drive, how could the other two entirely separate record logs be cancelled, erased or corrupted? Sorry, but I don't buy that. Let's say I'm a bit dubious. I expect that the second claim is going to need some further clarification.

Court will reconvene Oct 9th. We haven't heard final summations yet. Also, Rudy Guede's appeal is due in November with the possibility that he could contribute more information.

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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Some logical thinking at Il Messaggero:

Quote:
PERUGIA - Not just someone uses the computer for Raffaele Sollecito, several times, connecting to the Internet and watching news agency murder of British student Meredith Kercher, while he was questioned at police headquarters. But these attacks could have canceled the mysterious excuse the young. They may have erased evidence that Raphael, together with Amanda Knox, both accused of murdering Meredith, would have seen another film after "Fabulous Destiny of Amelie" also the fantasy "Stardust", incidentally, another troubled love story.
From Bari advisor of reminders, Antonio D'Ambrosio, raises the findings of his report and spoke of "high probability" that this happened. "The constant state power and access to the internet - says - may have changed the dates of the last visit. The software used by the police post and myself to evaluate human activity on the computer detects only recent entries, so if the film had been downloaded on the evening of the first of November, around 21:30, had been seen, subsequent accesses l 'were deleted. But why, then, has not been deleted "Amelie"? "Because that movie was seen and then archived. Stardust, however, was left in "sharing". So every time you turn on your computer, there could be subsequent contacts that have deleted the previous ones. And the software used detects only the last contact. "
Eventuality that the prosecution, however, excludes, referring to the sender the certainties of the expert: "The police check found no signs of cancellations or tampering of files." But if D'Ambrosio considered possible but not sure a hundred per cent, the cancellation of the movie does not, however doubts on those links and access to information website Ansa, occurring several times a night and the morning of the arrest of Raffaele just as the young Bari was the police station before being brought to huts with his ex-girlfriend. A thriller that is full of uncertainties and poisons. "Among other things - concludes D'Ambrosio - the computer was password protected, so anyone could use it as wanted.
But the picture yet, despite the new elements, does not fit all. Because the kids have not said then that they were at home watching two movies instead of one? Because those statements the night before the arrest, full of contradictions and corrections? Why Amanda placed at the scene of the crime and accused Patrick Lumumba? Among other things, "Stardust" the young American did not even mention when it was heard in June when he was questioned by prosecutor Giuliano Mignini.....


Google translation of this story at Il Messaggero

I think this whole idea of overwritten files is stardust.

First they said they were at a party with Raffaele's friends.

Then Raffaele said he stayed at home while Amanda went out.

Amanda said she was at the cottage and "Patrick did it."

Raffaele went into silent mode.

Amanda changed her mind and said she wasn't at the cottage. Instead she decided she was at Raffaele's. She had a shower and he cleaned her ears then they sat on his bed while Raffaele poured out his guilt at not being present when his mother died.

Ashes to ashes, stardust to dust.
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Offline petafly


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Tara wrote:

"Thanks for the picture of Vanessa. I knew you'd come up with the goods!

She certainly resembles her brother, doesn't she?"

I think she looks alot like her father.

Pooh! Thank goodness a genetic test isn't needed here. Wouldn't be useful anyway. As we know now it doesn't work AT ALL! :mrgreen:

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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Whatever happened to Juve(Juba)?
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

More on understanding what Stephononi did with her machine.

This applies right across the board when manufacturers declare the operating specifications of their machines.

When you build a bridge it has a maximum operating load. That doesn't mean it can't carry more. just that they aren't prepared to guarantee it. They allow a safety margin cos if it collapses unedr the weight of the load they'll get sued.

Everyone's seen those old war movies where commanders decide they have to dive down into the "red zone", 500 ft below the submarines maximum operating depth.

So it is with modern tech test equipment of any sort not just DNA analysers.

The manufacturer guaranteed that machine would work 100% with a minimum sample volume.

Stephononi didn't quite have that volume and so she instructed the machine to work with a lower volume(no blame on the manufacturer if it couldn't do it).

AND THAT MACHINE PERFORMED PERFECTLY

Stephononi got her result and everyone has seen it.



This is an entirely different subject from the possibility of contamination. That has nothing to do with the machine itself.
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Offline Yummi


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 4:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Brian S. wrote:
More on understanding what Stephononi did with her machine.
Everyone's seen those old war movies where commanders decide they have to dive down into the "red zone", 500 ft below the submarines maximum operating depth.

So it is with modern tech test equipment of any sort not just DNA analysers.

The manufacturer guaranteed that machine would work 100% with a minimum sample volume.

Stephononi didn't quite have that volume and so she instructed the machine to work with a lower volume(no blame on the manufacturer if it couldn't do it).

AND THAT MACHINE PERFORMED PERFECTLY

Stephononi got her result and everyone has seen it.

This is an entirely different subject from the possibility of contamination. That has nothing to do with the machine itself.


In fact, Brian this is one of the best synthetic explanations of the knife DNA - Stefanoni issue.

The joob done by Stefanoni is spotless, simply and exactly what she is requested to do. She has provided the prosecution with reports during the investigation and the documentation she brings in court is the what prosecution requested her to include in her file.

When asked if she deemed reliable the result, as a testifying expert she gave her opinion about the result.

The defense were allowed to attack the results as they thought it was fit, and could use any data they wanted for doing so.

Now, the court examining her is not a US jury, it is an organ with a bigger power. If - for any of the given reason - the court think they don't like her work or deem it is not reliable, they can dump Stefanoni's report and Stefanoni's opinions in the trash bin under the table in their counsel room. If they conclude that maybe a contamination occurred or if they don't like her way of using machines they will give an assessment and solve the problem in a minute, also they will give a written explaination for any of their conclusions.

I think none of the parties made anything different from what they are expected to do.

So, do you think there is in fact any "knife DNA / Stefanoni problem" to address?
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Yummi wrote:
So, do you think there is in fact any "knife DNA / Stefanoni problem" to address?


Hi Yummi. Not unless the defence can identify a specific 'source' of origin for that DNA contamination. To simply say it 'may have occurred somewhere in the lab' is too airy fairy. Did Stefanoni use the same machine to test other items from the cottage or from Meredith's body? No. Was the knife collected on the same day by the same people that had collected items from the cottage? No. Was the knife kept separate from items taken from the cottage? Yes. Therefore, this is the defence problem since they can't identify a specific culprit for contamination.

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Offline fine


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

There is a smoking gun.

As I heard again on the NBC television report this morning (see link above) the American reporters keep telling us that there is no "smoking gun". Utter nonsense. And the news report was followed by yet another (!) live interview with Kurt Knox, Kurt reminding us that there is no good evidence against The Angel from Seattle

Many have been perplexed by Raffaele's reaction to the scientific knife analysis. He didn't charge contamination or faulty laboratory procedures, he accepted the results-- Meredith's DNA on the blade. And as other comments on this website illustrate, the claim of contamination and/or faulty lab procedures IS pretty much vacuous. Raffaele sensed that, too, and ---after reflecting on his options---resorted to the only plausible explanation for the lab results.....cutting Meredith during an innocent "cooking accident". (http://www.giftsandfreeadvice.com/free_ ... own-words/) Of course, unless Raffaele wishes to elaborate of the details of that cooking accident, the jury will disregard his version of how Meredith's DNA was found on the knife.

The prosecution is treating the knife as a "sacred relic" because they know it will convict, even if an "independent investigator" is first retained by the judge. A smoking gun in America is a bloody knife in Italy.
/////


Last edited by fine on Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 6:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Yummi wrote:
Brian S. wrote:
More on understanding what Stephononi did with her machine.
Everyone's seen those old war movies where commanders decide they have to dive down into the "red zone", 500 ft below the submarines maximum operating depth.

So it is with modern tech test equipment of any sort not just DNA analysers.

The manufacturer guaranteed that machine would work 100% with a minimum sample volume.

Stephononi didn't quite have that volume and so she instructed the machine to work with a lower volume(no blame on the manufacturer if it couldn't do it).

AND THAT MACHINE PERFORMED PERFECTLY

Stephononi got her result and everyone has seen it.

This is an entirely different subject from the possibility of contamination. That has nothing to do with the machine itself.


In fact, Brian this is one of the best synthetic explanations of the knife DNA - Stefanoni issue.

The joob done by Stefanoni is spotless, simply and exactly what she is requested to do. She has provided the prosecution with reports during the investigation and the documentation she brings in court is the what prosecution requested her to include in her file.

When asked if she deemed reliable the result, as a testifying expert she gave her opinion about the result.

The defense were allowed to attack the results as they thought it was fit, and could use any data they wanted for doing so.

Now, the court examining her is not a US jury, it is an organ with a bigger power. If - for any of the given reason - the court think they don't like her work or deem it is not reliable, they can dump Stefanoni's report and Stefanoni's opinions in the trash bin under the table in their counsel room. If they conclude that maybe a contamination occurred or if they don't like her way of using machines they will give an assessment and solve the problem in a minute, also they will give a written explaination for any of their conclusions.

I think none of the parties made anything different from what they are expected to do.

So, do you think there is in fact any "knife DNA / Stefanoni problem" to address?


Absolutely none.

And the defense has known this for over a year. It's why they surprised everyone at the pre-trial by arguing "contamination". Until then we were lead to believe the result "matched half of Italy". Woe betide the geneticist prepared to take the stand and claim that's not Meredith's DNA. There isn't one prepared to do it.

Therefore the defence must attack the process.

If the court were prepared to accept, without proof, that contamination took place in the Rome lab, they might as well close the place down. Everyone else would claim the same thing. It would be the end of DNA testing in Italy.

Edit to add:

Sufficient material to perform a second test would have made the case 100%, but you have to work with what you've got.

I guess the court will have to do some "weighting".
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Offline Tiziano


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

This is a translation of Messaggero report posted by Brian in Google translation, which did not make a lot of sense
(Google, not you Brian!)

Translation from Il Messaggero Monday 18th September, 2009
By I. CARM and V. UG

Perugia

It's not just that someone used RF's computer several times, connecting to the internet and looking at news agency reports about the murder of the student MK, while RF was being questioned at Police Headquarters.
But these mysterious accesses could have cancelled the young man's alibi. Because they could have cancelled the proof that R, together with AK, both accused of the murder of M, may have watched another film after Amélie, the fantasy Stardust; what a coincidence - another troubled love story.

From Bari the Sollecitos' consultant, Antonio D'Ambrosio, sets out again the results of his investigation, talking of "the highest probability" that this happened.
"The fact that the computer was on all the time and continuously connected to the internet - he explains - could have changed the dates of the last accesses. The programme used by the Postal Police and by me to evaluate the human activity on the computer indicates only the last accesses. Therefore if the film, which was downloaded on the evening of November 1st at about 21.30, was watched, the later accesses could have cancelled this."
But why, then, wasn't Amelie cancelled?
"Because that film was watched and then saved. Stardust on the other hand remained in "sharing" (my best effort for "condivisione" as computer jargon non-expert - transl). Thus every time the computer was put on , it could be that new contacts cancelled the ones before. The software used identified only the last contact."
The prosecution however excludes this possibility, returning to sender the certainties of the expert.
"The postal police did not find signs of cancellation or interference with files."
But if D'Ambrosio considers the cancellation of the film being watched possible but not 100% certain, he has however no doubts about the accesses and connections to the Ansa newsagency site, which took place several times on the night and the morning of R's arrest, just while the young man from Bari was at the station prior to being taken to Capanne with his ex-girlfriend. This is a mystery full of uncertainties and poison.
"Among other things - D'Ambrosio concludes - the computer was not password-protected, thus anyone could have used it as they wished."

But the picture still doesn't fit together at all, not withstanding the new elements. Why did the youngsters not say before that they stayed home and watched two films, rather than one? Why did they make those statements so full of contradictions and adjustments on the night preceding their arrest? Why did A link herself to the scene of the crime and accuse Patrick Lumumba? Among other things, the young American did not even mention Stardust when she was questioned in June by PM Mignini.

The next stage of the trial is set for October 10th, when the defence lawyers (Giulia Bongiorno, Luca Maori, Luciano Ghirga) will ask the Court of the Assizes for new expert reports to be done on the DNA found on the bra clasp and the knife, and on the bloody footprints. These are subjects that the experts for defendants have tried to take apart, directly attacking the way in which the analyses were done by the police scientific branch.
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Offline Buzz


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Well the defendants are certainly putting up a fight, that's for sure. But can they really pull it off and get themselves acquitted? For me, there's just waaaay too much smoke for there not to be a fire. If they truly are innocent despite all that seemingly damning evidence, they must be the two most unlucky people in the history of unlucky people.
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Offline Bess


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:16 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Thanks to all the contributors to this amazing site for Meredith Kercher.

You're great Tiziano. Thanks for all the translations.

Thanks for the analyses Brian S. and The Machine.

Jools, you find the most amazing things that are always "right on"!

I don't have a lot of opportunity to pop in these days, but when I do I realize I'm still right with you all.

Let's all hope for the best outcome. My thoughts are with the Kercher family.
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:31 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Buzz wrote:
--- snip ---
Well the defendants are certainly putting up a fight, that's for sure.
--- snap ---


I believe that if papà Sollecito and the Knox/Mellas clan wouldn't have had the money to pay experts who want to make us believe the world is flat, this fight would be over already.

It's just a shame that lots of people gave their hard earned money as donation to the Knox/Mellas, so they could hire David Marriot and travel to Italy. I am wondering if there will be an audit about the donations at some point? This is one of the few websites where I have read comments showing sympathy for the Kerchers and the impact this trial in Italy might have had on them. Don't bother to try to look for sympathy for the real victims of this crime at Candace's or Frank's!
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Offline Fly by Night


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:08 am   Post subject: Knox/Mellas needed some assistance...   

Nell wrote:
It's just a shame that lots of people gave their hard earned money as donation to the Knox/Mellas, so they could hire David Marriot and travel to Italy. I am wondering if there will be an audit about the donations at some point? This is one of the few websites where I have read comments showing sympathy for the Kerchers and the impact this trial in Italy might have had on them. Don't bother to try to look for sympathy for the real victims of this crime at Candace's or Frank's!


Hi Nell: Don't overlook the influence of Douglas Preston on the behavior of the Knox/Mellas/FoAKer contingent. Knox/Mellas/FoAKer are simply not smart or resourceful enough to do what has been done in the name of Amanda Knox on their own. I've concluded that Preston introduced himself to them very early in the game simply because his book would soon be published and he saw $$$$ signs everywhere. Preston couldn't care less about Meredith Kercher, and he couldn't care less about Amanda Knox beyond the money and attention any hyped-up press coverage whatsoever can generate, whether it is true or false. The truth simply doesn't matter to these kinds of people; for them the money and ego gratification (with a little "payback" on the side) that is generated by being in the media limelight is what its all about.
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:38 am   Post subject: Re: Knox/Mellas needed some assistance...   

Fly by Night wrote:
Hi Nell: Don't overlook the influence of Douglas Preston on the behavior of the Knox/Mellas/FoAKer contingent. Knox/Mellas/FoAKer are simply not smart or resourceful enough to do what has been done in the name of Amanda Knox on their own. I've concluded that Preston introduced himself to them very early in the game simply because his book would soon be published and he saw $$$$ signs everywhere. Preston couldn't care less about Meredith Kercher, and he couldn't care less about Amanda Knox beyond the money and attention any hyped-up press coverage whatsoever can generate, whether it is true or false. The truth simply doesn't matter to these kinds of people; for them the money and ego gratification (with a little "payback" on the side) that is generated by being in the media limelight is what its all about.


With that you are probably right. I had already forgotten about Doug Preston. Here I found an interview from Doug Preston where he gives his opinion about the Meredith Kercher case. Should I be surprised that Candace Dempsey is the interviewer? Certainly not.

I agree with you completely that there are people who try to derive benefit from the murder of Meredith Kercher, among them is unfortunately the family of one of the suspects. Something that is hard to top in my opinion.

What is unique about this case is also the fact that the media receive their information only or mostly from the family and/or lawyers of the suspects and publish that without hesitation. What has become to journalism? What happened to integrity? Borrowed words these days.

The last interview from Barbie Nadeau (the link to the interview was posted in this thread before) was weak as piss poor in my opinion. She didn't state the facts and suggested that the reason why Amanda Knox was charged with the crime was merely because of her conflicting statements. She forgot to mention some important facts, the evidence that places Amanda Knox in the cottage on the night of the murder. Disappointing.
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Offline petafly


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:11 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Quote:
Manuela Comodi, his assistant prosecutor, is a wide-awake pit bull who takes no prisoners. In a nearly two-decade career, she has taken down Catholic cardinals, Albanian Mafiosi and bank presidents in major corruption and drug cases. She has been leading the attack on the defense team's scientific experts, and her sharp retorts and exasperated outbursts snap sleepy reporters back to attention. During hot afternoons in summer, she furiously fanned herself with a black, lacy fan, and initiated frequent shouting matches with the other lawyers. She is often seen dashing out the side door to inhale a cigarette in the middle of questioning.


About the "Tough Women of the Amanda Knox Case". Time Magazin. Obviously no pp-( ...
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Offline lisareik


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:00 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Her parents seem to be in deep denial; apparently when they learn of Amanda's guilt it wil force them to look at their own roles in her upbringing with a more discerning eye. This for them is apparently impossible.

I do remember the Manson girls and I do also see similarities. The difference is cosmetic; Amanda reeks of good all American wholesomeness on the surface; the Manson girls did not hide under convenient disguises like that.

Time for judgment is coming up quickly. Ms. Knox should do the right thing at this point; make a clean confession, ask the court's and her familay's mercy and bear the responsibility for what we now know she
did.
Otherwsie her disgrace and conviction will be even more ignominous.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:36 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

"I do remember the Manson girls "

Recent news:
"Atkins died of natural causes on September 24, 2009, at the Central California Women's facility in Chowchilla"
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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

OT

A bit of news about Salty's on Alki where some of us have been accused of "crashing" the FOA fundraiser back in January 2009.

When is the next one FOA? See you there! b-((

KOMONEWS.COM

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

bolint wrote:
"I do remember the Manson girls "

Recent news:
"Atkins died of natural causes on September 24, 2009, at the Central California Women's facility in Chowchilla"


And Squeaky Fromm is all set to move into her new neighborhood in upstate New York.

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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

lisareik wrote:
Her parents seem to be in deep denial; apparently when they learn of Amanda's guilt it wil force them to look at their own roles in her upbringing with a more discerning eye. This for them is apparently impossible.

I do remember the Manson girls and I do also see similarities. The difference is cosmetic; Amanda reeks of good all American wholesomeness on the surface; the Manson girls did not hide under convenient disguises like that.

Time for judgment is coming up quickly. Ms. Knox should do the right thing at this point; make a clean confession, ask the court's and her familay's mercy and bear the responsibility for what we now know she
did.
Otherwsie her disgrace and conviction will be even more ignominous.


I don't know if I am right with that, but I believe the upbringing is not crucial to become a murderer. Amanda Knox behaviour certainly reflects the education she received at home, but how that could culminate in a murder defies me. The education (if wrong) might encourage, but I don't believe it to be a decisive factor.

I find it more believable that Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox were peculiar for other reasons. I am certainly inclined to believe they must have some personality disorder that might have been overlooked by the family because it wasn't very pronounced or they simply didn't feel there was anything threatening about it. This is possibly the most common thing to happen until murders are discovered as what they are.
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Offline The 411


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:58 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

lisareik wrote:
Her parents seem to be in deep denial; apparently when they learn of Amanda's guilt it will force them to look at their own roles in her upbringing with a more discerning eye. This for them is apparently impossible.



Lisa:
When I listened to the "Today Show" video link that Tara provided for us yesterday, I was struck by this one (perhaps unintentional but very telling} statement made by Curt Knox, on the "FOA Philosophy of how to deal with Reality"

Concerning the Defense case against Amanda, Curt Knox remarked to Meredith Viera: "What they have as evidence against her does not exist." huh-)

Thinking about that remark I was reminded of
Friedrich Nietzche who said: "You have your way. I have my way. As for the correct way, and the only way, IT DOES NOT EXIST."

But The FOA should break out of their denial and heed the words of the rationist philosopher Parmenides who once argued:

"What is, is, and What is not, is not."

MEANING. . . if the FOA say "X "does not exist, they are in fact acknowledging SOMETHING because "nothing" is in fact something.

To update Parmenides' words, AND to make them more relevant to this case,


"What is, is,
and. . .
WHAT IS KNOX IS KNOX."

:lol:
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Offline bucketoftea


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

There is no proof that the Sollecito family had anything to do with the use of Raffaele's computer on Nov. 1; it is one of many arguments popular on the lunatic fringe. Phone call activity would indicate that Raffaele's father was in Bari; Raffaele's sister in Rome. Nor did they have a reason to go into Raffaele's apartment and use his computer. It is laughable.

In any case, this blog is not a sounding board for every ridiculous theory floated elsewhere. I will delete.

Candace
* * * * *
Someone had asked was it not reasonable that Raff's family were at his flat and why would the police check for news. She deleted both those posts and her reply above, but I think missed this because it started "you're right" lol :

You're so right. No sounding board, no discussion, just propaganda, wild ravings from people we hope to God don't own firearms (or anything sharp)(or a passport) and irrelevant bullshit you copy and paste.

You might actually enjoy and learn from proper debate at PMF, so much better; discussions and respect and plenty of good translations, not excuses.

http://tinyurl.com/ydul24p

* * * * * *
Then she followed with a post of irrelevant bullshit.....ROFL
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Offline martin


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:28 pm

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
bolint wrote:
"I do remember the Manson girls "

Recent news:
"Atkins died of natural causes on September 24, 2009, at the Central California Women's facility in Chowchilla"


And Squeaky Fromm is all set to move into her new neighborhood in upstate New York.

Why she is nicknamed "squeaky"? Because of her voice?
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Candace wrote:

"There is no proof that the Sollecito family had anything to do with the use of Raffaele's computer on Nov. 1; it is one of many arguments popular on the lunatic fringe. Phone call activity would indicate that Raffaele's father was in Bari; Raffaele's sister in Rome. Nor did they have a reason to go into Raffaele's apartment and use his computer. It is laughable."

Actually, I haven't seen any proof whatsoever that anyone was on RS's computer on November 5 (not November 1). From what I have read, one of his lawyer's intimated during a break in the hearing that it could have been the police, who could have done something on the computer that could have deleted earlier proof of activity on the night of November 1. That's a lot of could haves to deal with. I guess I'd rather wait for more information and, in the meantime, entertain ideas rather than hit the delete button repeatedly and mindlessly.

I haven't seen RS's phone records for November 5 (I have seen them for Nov 1 and 2, but this is irrelevant here), so I don't know what they show in terms of the whereabouts of his father or sister.

Once again, Candace misses the point entirely. Sometimes I think she does it on purpose, as a coping strategy. Other times, I think she truly just misses the point. That's the price you pay when you stake out a position and then stick to it no matter what.
e

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Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point; on le sait en mille choses.
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Offline Esperanza


Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 7:32 pm

Posts: 24

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Jools wrote:
DeathFish 2000 wrote:
I've been saying from day one that Amanda Knox would have sung like a bird by now if it wasn't for her mother telling her to keep her mouth shut and the family will deal with it, and that is about the kindest thing I can say for this person. She had virtually done that anyway before her mother arrived in Perugia on her 1st visit.
I would also say her description of the police questioning her was how she saw things in her naive mind and when related to her mother and family they then blew it up to the ridiculous proportions we see today.
It's a bit like accusing the local authority of verbally raping you after they have sent you a reminder to say your library books are overdue.

I am with you on this DF2K and I believe the same goes for Sollecito's father.


I think Sollecito's father is the worst because of his remark about making water run uphill. How can a parent think they are doing their child a favour by covering up a murder? If it was self defence or something you'd understand but no sane parent would cover up a murder surely? Knoxs' parents still strike me as being in denial. I think it may be dawning on her father that maybe she did it... but her mother strikes me as someone who will always stay in denial because she couldn't cope with the truth. I really believe it would be too painful for her. Let us not forget that they are not murderers - it is their children are on trial. Their hearts must be cleaved in two... I feel murder is something none of them would be capable of themselves so it must be as abhorrent thought for them as much as it is for us. How could you cope with knowing your child is capable of such barbarity? I know that I'd go nuts and I think my own parents would have been incapable of covering up such a thing because their hearts would have been so broken. If I was in any of their shoes I'd be worrying more about my childrens souls now than anything I could do to set them free. What good would freedom do? None. They would still remain murderers. In fact they'd have more to worry about if they were set free... because maybe they'd strike again.
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Offline Esperanza


Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 7:32 pm

Posts: 24

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Jools wrote:
Il Messaggero questions Patrick Lumumba and his lawyer Carlo Pacelli:
Lawyer Pacelli:
“She has tried to derailed the investigation to cover for herself and the others”
"From the testimony of Professor Carlo Caltagirone comes out a profile of a girl sane mind, normal and lucid."

Lawyer Pacelli what do you think of the examination of the witness and the report filed?
“I think the report he filed is entirely academic.”

And your position?
“Is been strengthened, and our belief is proven that Amanda lies and slanders."

Is there a particular reason why Amanda maintained that the murderer was Patrick?
"She accused my client, knowing him innocent, to deflect inquiries from other parties, obviously including herself."

-Beside Pacelli, is also Lumumba that has follow the questioning and cross-examination without missing a beat, affected by the outcome of the trial because of dissatisfaction for what compensation he’s received so far for the very grave loss he suffered.-

Lumumba:
"I was under stress without accusing"
"I also was interrogated and have been in prison but I’ve never set up anybody in the middle of this."

How you think Amanda appeared in the words of Professor Caltagirone?
"I never thought that Amanda was under stress, it is not possible, I can not believe."

You knew her well?
"Our relationship was just work, but as I had her closer, her ways of being, from her attitudes I can not imagine that a girl like her could suffer stress, though in a situation so serious, but even under stress it cannot be possible to say things that are not correct”

Were you in the police station for the questioning?
"No, I was arrested by the police. However at the police station were many others. I think of my position, in those days we were all in the same situation, same questions, same fears, same uncertainties, but none of us has accused others.”

Currently, what is your business?
"After prison, once released, I had many difficulties to resume my work in the pub Le Chic, which I had to close. I am without a job and I have a family to support. For now I'm a musician and compose."
http://tinyurl.com/ya9wx48


That is so sad. I'd love to hear his music. I remember once hearing a great description of a sociopath. They appear charming but leave a trail of destruction behind them in all who they come in contact with. Amanda's actions and lies have certainly caused absolute destruction in everyone's life that she came in contact with in Italy.
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Offline martin


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:28 pm

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Esperanza wrote:
I think Sollecito's father is the worst because of his remark about making water run uphill. How can a parent think they are doing their child a favour by covering up a murder? If it was self defence or something you'd understand but no sane parent would cover up a murder surely? Knoxs' parents still strike me as being in denial. I think it may be dawning on her father that maybe she did it... but her mother strikes me as someone who will always stay in denial because she couldn't cope with the truth. I really believe it would be too painful for her. Let us not forget that they are not murderers - it is their children are on trial. Their hearts must be cleaved in two... I feel murder is something none of them would be capable of themselves so it must be as abhorrent thought for them as much as it is for us. How could you cope with knowing your child is capable of such barbarity? I know that I'd go nuts and I think my own parents would have been incapable of covering up such a thing because their hearts would have been so broken. If I was in any of their shoes I'd be worrying more about my childrens souls now than anything I could do to set them free. What good would freedom do? None. They would still remain murderers. In fact they'd have more to worry about if they were set free... because maybe they'd strike again.

Hi Esperanza,
Didn't evolution equip all "mammals" with the instinct to protect their "cubs" no matter how
dangerous the situation is? Soul? Are you referring to the religious or the psychological
meaning of this word?
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Offline DLW


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

The 411 wrote:

‘When I listened to the "Today Show" video link that Tara provided for us yesterday, I was struck by this one (perhaps unintentional but very telling} statement made by Curt Knox, on the "FOA Philosophy of how to deal with Reality"
Concerning the Defense case against Amanda, Curt Knox remarked to Meredith Viera: "What they have as evidence against her does not exist."


Even though Judge Giancarlo Massei and his panel of Judges is handling Amanda’s case over at the Court of Assizes in Italy , Curt Knox and his panel of Foakers is handling her case over here in the USA. Just ask any of the major network stations, including the NBC Today show. Now Curt did use the words “ I hope, I think, and I believe’, but he is rock solid in her complete innocence. In fact he is so sure that Amanda will be declared innocent at the present hearing, that he wants an independent review of some of the DNA evidence. Even though it will take additional time. He just wants to make it perfectly clear to everyone, that Amanda cooperated fully and honestly with the proper authorities to help solve this crime against Meredith.

OT) Martin asked: ‘Why she is nicknamed "squeaky (Lynette Fromme)"? Because of her voice?' From one of her followers : ‘The name "Squeaky" was conferred by Manson because she made "Squeaking" sounds when touched on the thigh by whomever Manson was pimping her to, most notably George Spann, owner of the ranch where the gang lived at one time. She never used the name.’
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Offline Kermit


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:12 pm   Post subject: PAVLOV's DOG, SKINNER's RAT AND OTHER MAD EXPERIMENTS   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Candace wrote:

"There is no proof that the Sollecito family had anything to do with the use of Raffaele's computer on Nov. 1; it is one of many arguments popular on the lunatic fringe .... It is laughable."

Actually, I haven't seen any proof whatsoever that anyone was on RS's computer on November 5 (not November 1). From what I have read, one of his lawyer's intimated during a break in the hearing that it could have been the police, who could have done something on the computer that could have deleted earlier proof of activity on the night of November 1. That's a lot of could haves to deal with. I guess I'd rather wait for more information and, in the meantime, entertain ideas rather than hit the delete button repeatedly and mindlessly."

If the defence "experts" in the last two weeks had had any truly explosive information, they would have presented it in a detailed manner, rather than intimate it with insinuations to reporters outside the courthouse.

As regards the supposed connections beyond 10 p.m. on Nov 5 there is an amazing lack of information. (I found it strange that the expert suggested that the 10ish Skype connection was Raffaele, I would have thought that if such a connection actually occurred, it would more likely have been Amanda.)

The connection on Nov. 1 to www.apple.com is not necessarily significant, if it occurred, as it fits in with established timelines. Was it really http traffic? According to the Giornale dell'Umbria article which Brian S. google translated and posted above, the "expert", who I believe is a hometown Bari boy, detected the traffic he detected by studying the ISP provider's data, which is fair enough .... but couldn't he identify the corresponding activity on the computer? There are different logs and nooks and crannies on the computer where such information would be stored.

I have an Apple computer. By default, the OSX operating system checks the Apple site once a week to see if there is any software update to download. Maybe that explains the supposed activity. Maybe a browser jammed for some reason and restarted. The Safari browser has the Apple web site set by default as the home page.

What is totally lacking from the Sollecito defense expert is any detail on the supposed activity that he supposedly detected.

As usual, by applying Occum's Razor, we see that it's easier to apply a more logical, simple explanation for possible computer activity online on Nov.1. And as regards Nov. 5-6, why employ convoluted conspiracy theory plots which require Mignini to be waiting in his pyjamas and bathrobe, hiding around the corner from Raffaele's flat, waiting for the happy couple to finish their innocent Skype call to Seattle friends (or to a friend in Germany? ....) and leave for their police questioning, so that Mignini can sneak in and check out the latest Apple computers at http://www.apple.com.
============
As for The Cook hitting the delete button endlessly and mindlessly, the image which comes to mind is some sort of salivating Pavlov's dog or a rat in a Skinner Box, where the poor savage animal repeatedly hits a lever until a little compartment opens with a reward.


Last edited by Kermit on Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Yummi


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

the quoted article abou the pc from "Il Messaggero"

Scoppia un giallo intorno al computer

La difesa del pugliese: “Qualcuno ha usato il pc mentre Raffaele era trattenuto in questura”.
PERUGIA27.09.2009

Antonio D’Ambrosio

(Ecb) Chi ha manovrato il pc di Raffaele Sollecito, un Apple Mac Book Pro, la notte tra il 5 e il 6 novembre 2007, mentre lo studente barese si trovava in questura come persona informata sui fatti prima e poi come indagato, tanto da essere subito trasferito a Capanne, con l’accusa di concorso nell’omicidio di Meredith Kercher e di concorso nella violenza sessuale sulla studentedssa inglese? Scoppia un giallo nell’aula degli Affreschi, in questo processo lungo come la camicia di Meo e pieno di sorprese. Scoppia, il giallo, in seguito all’elaborato peritale effettuato da Michele Gigli e Antonio D’Ambrosio (è stato quest’ultimo ad illustrare il documento in aula) analizzando l’hard disk, del pc dell’indagato, acquisito in copia forense oltre ai files di log, acquisiti dalla Polizia Postale dalla società Fastweb. Analizzando l’attività del pc tra le ore 22 del 5 novembre fino alle 13.30 del 6 novembre, i periti hanno ricostruito l’attività in due fasi. “Nella prima - sostengono - si presume l’utilizzo da parte del proprietario Raffaele Sollecito. Nella successiva il pc è stato utilizzato da persona a noi sconosciuta, visto che dagli atti processuali Raffaele Sollecito non poteva essere presente in casa in quello spazio temporale (si trovava, appunto, in questura, ndr). L’utilizzo del computer da parte del proprietario, a nostro avviso, si è concluso alle 20 del 5 novembre con l’utilizzo del programma Skype”. Dalle 22.05 i periti hanno ricostruito accessi al browser Safari, alle applicazioni Messenger, Skype, Adobe Golive Cs2 (ore 22.10), l’apertura dell’applicativo Mail (alle 23.07), Finder (00.58’), Itunes, Firefox. Poi si riprende con un nuovo accesso a Safari (9.07), Firefox (con l’apertura della pagina dell’Ansa che portava il titolo “Inglese uccisa: eseguiti dei fermi” e la descrizione “individuate le persone coinvolte, alle 11 conferenza stampa”. Chi abbia cliccato per legere la notizia di agenzia, e per le altre interazioni, non si sa. Ma non è escluso che, prossimamente, il giallo possa avere una soluzione. I consulenti hanno affrontato anche l’analisi della attività del computer nella notte del delitto, tra le 21 del primo novembre e e le 5 del mattino del 2 novembre. “Analizzando i tabulati forniti dall’azienda fornitrice del servizio di connettività Fastweb spa, abbiano rilevato - sostengono Gigli e D’Ambrosio - un notevole traffico costituito principalmente da P2P (PeerToPeer). E’ noto infatti che il computer fosse sempre collegato e connesso alla rete per permettere a software come Azureus e aMule di continuare il download/upload dei files selezionati. E’ tuttavia presente, sia pure in quantità minore, un traffico “www.http”. Parte del traffico web è di tipo automatico, auto-generato a intervalli regolari dal browser Firefox verso IP riconducibili a Google e Mozilla; ma abbiamo rilevato oltre a questo traffico che alle ore 00.58’.50” c’è traffico sull’home page http://www.apple.com. Ciò significa che, a nostro avviso, c’è stato un accesso al sito internazionale della Apple all’ora indicata da parte di un utente. Quindi alle 00.58’ del 2 novembre vi è stata una interazione umana con il computer”. Risultano interazioni con il film “Il favoloso mondo di Amelie” e “Star dust”. Non solo. I consulenti, su incarico della difesa Sollecito, hanno analizzato anche i “movimenti” del computer nel pomeriggio del 30 ottobre (dalle 15 alle 18.30, per l’esattezza). E anche in queste ore sono stati rilevati accessi che testimoniano l’utilizzo del computer in quel pomeriggio. “Riteniamo utile - aggiungono i due esperti - che il giorno 30 ottobre era in regime di ora solare, ovvero il sole è sorto alle 6.11’ ed è tramontato alle 17.36’ ”. Facile per la difesa concludere che il teste che sostiene di aver visto, quando era ancora giorno, Sollecito in strada, tra il cascinale e piazza Grimana, con Amanda, Meredith e Rudy Guede, si sbaglia. La consulenza, insomma, rappresenta una sorta di mina per l’ipotesi dell’accusa anche se i pubblici ministeri Mignini e Comodi e la parte civile hanno subito tenuto a precisare che le conclusioni alle quali sono arrivati gli esperti della Polizia Postale (presenti in aula al fianco dei magistrati) sono del tutto diverse. In aula anche la genetista Sara Gino, consulente della difesa Knox, che ha riproposto la questione della contaminazione delle tracce di Dna. “Il rischio esiste e va preso in seria considerazione” - ha affermato
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Offline Yummi


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

The full translation:
(bolds are mine)

Scoppia un giallo intorno al computer.

La difesa del pugliese: “Qualcuno ha usato il pc mentre Raffaele era trattenuto in questura”.
PERUGIA27.09.2009


Antonio D’Ambrosio

Who operated Raffaele Sollecito’s pc, an Apple MacBook Pro, the night between nov 5 and 6, 2007, while the student from Bari was in the questura as person providing information first, then as a suspect, so much as to be driven to Capanne on the accusation of concurring in the murder of Meredith Kercher and in concurring to a sexual violence?
A mystery bursts out in the Aula degli Affreschi (the courtroom) in this trial long as a Meo’s shirt and full of surprises. The mystery is bursting out subsequently to the expert report written by Michele Gigli and Antonio d’Ambrosio (the latter explained the document in the courtroom) as they had been analyzing the hard disk – acquired in forensic copy format – as well as the log files acquired by the Telecommunication Police from Fastweb internet provider.
Through an analysis the computer activity between 22:00 Nov 5 and 13.30 Nov 6, the experts reconstructed the activity in two phases.
“In the first – they maintain – we assume the use by the owner Raffaele Sollecito. In the following the laptop was used by a person by us unknown, since as for the proceeding acts Raffaele Sollecito could not be at home in that period of time (he was, in fact, in the questura) The use of the computer by the owner, in our opinion was concluded at 20:00 of Nov 5 with the use of Skype application”. From 22:05 the experts reconstructed the record of accesses to the Safari browser, to messenger, Skype, Adobe Golive Cs2 (22:10) application, the opening of Mail application (at 23:07), Finder (00:58), Itunes and Firefox. It begins again with a new access on Safari (9:07) and Firefox with the opening of the ANSA page carrying the title “The murdered English girl: some people under police arrest” and the subtitle “Involved people identified, press conference at 11”. Whoever clicked to check for the press conference, nobody knows it. But it is not to be excluded that, within the next days, the mystery could have a solution. The consultants also dealt with the analysis of computer activity during the murder night, between 21:00 of nov 1 and 05:00 of nov 2. “Trhough an analysis of the records at the Fastweb internet provider service we found out – Gigli and d’Ambrosio say – a big amount of traffic mostly made of P2P. It is known that the computer was always on and connected to the web in order to allow software Azureus and aMule [the Fastweb version of eMule] to continue the upload/download of files. It is also present anyway, even if in a low quantity, also an amount of http traffic. Partly this traffic is automatically generated by the Firefox browser to IP addresses related to Google and Mozilla, but we found also that at 00.58’.50” there was traffic directed to the Apple.com home page. This means in pour opinion that there was an access to the home page by a user. Thus in our opinion at 00:58 of nov2 there was a human interaction with the computer”.
There are interactions with the movie files “Amelie” and “Stardust”. Not only this. The consultants also analyzed the computer “movements” in the afternoon of oct 30. In this case too (precisely from 15:00 to 18:30). In these hours also accesses were found showing the computer had been used that afternoon. “We deem useful – the two experts add – that oct 30 was a period of ‘solar time’, which means the sun rise at 6:11 am and set down at 17:36”. Easy to conclude for the defence that the witness claiming to have seen Sollecito on the road as it was still daylight – together with Meredith Amanda and Rudy Guede, is mistaking. So the report presents itself like a sort of mine against the accusation hypothesis, although the public ministers Mignini and Comodi immediately recalled the conclusion to which the experts of the Postal Police (presently sitting in the courtroom) had come to, are totally different. In the courtroom also geneticist Sarah Gino, expert consultant for Knoox’s defence, who proposed again the issue of contamination and Dna traces: “The danger exists and has to be taken into serious consideration” she said.
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

DLW wrote:
The 411 wrote:
--- snip ---
In fact he is so sure that Amanda will be declared innocent at the present hearing, that he wants an independent review of some of the DNA evidence. Even though it will take additional time. He just wants to make it perfectly clear to everyone, that Amanda cooperated fully and honestly with the proper authorities to help solve this crime against Meredith.
--- snap ---


I disagree on this one. I don't think that he is necessarily convinced about his daughter's innocence. The neutral expert are Amanda's last chance to contest the evidence presented by the prosecution and to get off the hook. If they ask for independent experts to review the evidence, they must have realised that the experts who have contested the evidence so far during the trial couldn't cast enough doubt. It also shows that the evidence wasn't thrown out of the trial like Curt misreported many times. Evidence thrown out of the trial by the judge doesn't need to be reviewed anymore by independent experts. They know that Meredith's DNA on the blade can't be retested that gives them room to attack it.

I certainly wouldn't consider that Amanda Knox or anybody of her family co-operated fully and honestly with the authorities for one second. That ship has sailed.

The parents from Amanda first tried to show that Amanda was abused and coerced into a false statement in order to get all her conflicting statements thrown out. They did that primarily outside the courtroom for obvious reasons. They failed. Then they tried to attack the police work and how they had picked up the evidence. Again outside the courtroom. That failed too. Then they made another attempt by accusing Stefanoni of contamination of the evidence in hope to get the double DNA knife disproved. Again they failed. There are not many options left. The independent experts are their last shot before they will get a conviction. Curt Knox knows that. I am sure that Curt Knox and Edda Mellas know more about low copy DNA right now than many who write about the case on the internet. At this point they must know what it means that Meredith's DNA has been found on the blade and Amanda's on the handle of the knife and that this knife is compatible with at least two wounds out of three inflicted on the victim. It must be difficult if not impossible at this point to overlook that.

Regarding papà Sollecito: Italians have close knitted families and blood is thicker than water. He blames Amanda for everything that happened, he already expressed that in an interview when he said "I curse the day my son met Amanda." He obviously attributes his son only a minor role in this crime and that makes it easier for him to ignore the rest.
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Offline Yummi


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Candace on her blog seems open to accapt a comment about the pc's report only under the condition it is not "slanderous" towards Sollecito family member, but she also adds the condition that I must not sound like a second person using my alias.

She is making an allegation about me letting someon else use my password/machine, and requires from me to not to allege there could be people allowing others to use their passwords/machines, keys...

Because of her request and the content of our views, i am afraid there is a danger to fail to meet her requirements, so I will write here my opinion.

About the intrusion mystery in Sollecito’s computer.
The first obvious - or more obvious thing for me - in reading about this news is the difference we cans see in the results, between the analysis from the night of murder (nov 2) and the night of arrest (nov 5). In both cases the expert’s interpretation is a “human interaction”. But the content of those two reports is in fact extremely different. Almost totally opposite. I look forward for a feedback from a telecommunication technician like Kermit. The only sign here associated (by the defence’s expert alone) to a human interaction in the night of nov2, is a http connection to the OS manufacturer site (Apple.com) lasting only four seconds. The lot of all other actions accomplished by the machine – all http connections always lasting few seconds as well – are all considered just automatically generated activities (downloads, updates, scripts or program payloads etc.).
This means the nov2 computer activity described by the defence is a “dead calm”, with only one atomic possible human movement.

Now, lets look to the computer activity of nov 5-6 (22:05 – 9:07).
This instead looks like *two* different periods of human activities ( A: 22:05- 00:58, and B: 9:07- following minutes) with a night in between (1:00-9:00) in which the computer was left on in order to complete the download of “Stardust”.
Although this comes from a forensic copy and not from a direct analysis of the pc hard disk we believe it to be an equivalent. But in addition, an important second source is the connection record from internet provider Fastweb. This indicates there was a connection on Raffaele’s account.
Since Raffaele’s Mac was protected by password, this means a person accessing the pc was allowed to work beyond two passwords: the machine access password and the Fastweb customer password. But also, this person had access though two application to accounts also protected by passwords.

A digression. For those who don’t know about connectivity in Italy, among several national wireless providers Fastweb is one of the cheapest (in fact it is the cheapest but one: only Tele2 is maybe slightly cheaper). Those providers are cheap but they use a different protocol from others more secure services. They do not admit the use of fix IP addresses by their users, they assign .. only dynamic IP addresses to single machines, they also do not support any possibility for the customer to use a private LAN because they use, as a network, a LAN protocol themselves.
You can deduce that it is virtually impossible to know, from an analysis network traffic on the server, what machine is accessing the net. The Fasweb provider for this reason is knowingly less secure because it is impossible for clients to implement a supplementary hardware protection, as well as the impossibility to control possible traffic with other Fastweb machines. The cracking of Fastweb wireless access keysin Italy is almost like a national sport for kids; this can be done obviously only when there is one genuine connection activated in the area. Those features of Fastweb mean their server records, would be unreliable as a source if considered alone. Only the pc data are interesting.

Back to the defence’s claim. The intent of the expert in court was to rise suspicion that it was a police officer who braked in Raffaele’s home and used the pc. Some elements are strange in this claim. Aside from the machine password, the intruder needs a key to enter the apartment.
It is extremely strange also to imagine that the alleged cop (22:05) decided to access data through the operative system, something the police never does.

But it makes even les sense that the cop surfed on the internet the next morning, after a pause (00:58-9:07) during which he/she was maybe sleeping there for about 8 hours.
I find difficult to believe is that they checked the download of one of the eight “Stardust” files. We can think, maybe, this agency officer opened all these application with the purpose to look through Raffaele’s contacts, friends, downloaded material or any useful material with information related to possible evidence, maybe this is why the cop was rummaging in so many machine applications. But the opening and use of Messenger and Skype, requiring the use of different passwords? Was the cop talking with his cousin? All this is at least unusual, I would say, as police activity.

But next morning, this policeman checked the news on the web, and what news? The latest ANSA report about arrest and about a press conference. Think: who could be such an awake policeman who gets up to date on the evolving of the case by checking the latest ANSA news? The alleged cop searches and learns from the ANSA about the arrest of the person he is investigating.

Let’s use a bit our imagination: think of a person who is called at the police station at night. Who could be the likeliest – most natural candidate – to use communication tools like Skype and Messenger? Who could be more interested in reaching on Raffs computer to see whether there could thought his files be maybe anything like incriminating stuff? Obviously: a relative, a sister, a brother. Whoever opens at the morning for ANSA news looks like someone who is anxious while Raffaele is out by the police the whole night. Do imagine instead the police - who are informed in real time – open the morning news to check the first ANSA about the case, after their man has been declared suspect since hours, when they are there and they can sequestrate the machine?

Think about the utter nonsense. Is there any reason why the police should access a computer in a way possibly damaging data that could be useful *them* in order to find a possible *evidence * ? And, for what reason do they take this danger? To check the news they already know? And how do they get Skype and Messenger passwords: do they use Messenger and Skype for their own purposes on a different account with their own password? And do they have to use a Fastweb connection?
And finally, above all, as taxpayer I also wonder what agency dispatches personnel for the whole night to have a picnic, and a pyjama party – with an 8 hours rest, including breakfast time – sleeping inside a witness’ or suspect’s apartment? And for what purpose? I have a problem on this point not only as a taxpayer, but even if I had to write a screenplay for a third class spy story.

At last, we can go back to analyze the nov 2 interaction. There is – together with the high download traffic on the p2p protocol - a small amount of http traffic on which the defence concludes that it is all directed to service pages and automatically generated by application scripts. They believe only one connection – at 00.58’.50” to the apple.com domain, lasting only four seconds – is a human interaction. I don’t know the basis of the expert’s deduction but I am quite sceptical. Because even without being experts we know that connections to a manufacturer main page can often be generated automatically: think for example to a p2p program set to get automatically a codec for a downloaded file or for authorization issues, or a security suite operating on schedule. Those machines always left on, for hours, in intrusive networks like Fastweb with all their applications open on several ports with downloading devices, have a riddle of scripts and possibly undesirable active stuff (so often system malware). Think to how many ‘normal’ applications automatically address a manufacturer main page on schedule (example: OS firewalls, update programs, driver payloads). Thus, I don’t believe this 00.58’.50” can in fact prove there was a human interaction, I am surprised a technician is so sure of that just because the page address is different from the other automatically generated connections. Also because, what does a human do in four seconds? If he goes there he would need to do something else: open a page, a directory, close it.

So who was the intruder? Which clan do you think he/she was a member of? I observe also the use of Adobe Golive, a program suitable for web designers, graphics and visual designers. Apple.com home page receives millions of automatic connections per day. This expert analysis uses the Fastweb provider service record obtained and provided to them by the Telecommunication Police. Put all this together.
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Offline martin


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:28 pm

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Yummi wrote:


La difesa del pugliese: “Qualcuno ha usato il pc mentre Raffaele era trattenuto in questura”.
PERUGIA27.09.2009


"Qualcuno ha usato il pc"
"in qualche modo il coltello è stato contaminato"
"magari" , "probabilmente", "forse"
When does the defense finally decide to come up with something tangible instead of
"somebody", "somehow", "perhaps" , "maybe", "it could have happended"??
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Offline martin


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:28 pm

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Dear Skeptical,
There are three words in your postage stamp; are these words the corporate mission statement
of a certain seattle-based pressuregroup and do they mean:

Liberté = Free ak and rs!

Egalité = All defendants are equal but caucasian americans and europeans are more equal
than african immigrants

Fraternité = Donate all you can afford to our cause
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Offline Yummi


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Location: Bunga-Bunga Republic

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

My conclusion on the pc use, is that the most important datum is that, rather than one intrusion it is *two* different periods of human activities (A: 22:05- 00:58, and B: 9:07- following minutes). There is night in between (1:00-9:00), when the computer was left on to complete the download of “Stardust”. There is no decisive proof that those two different period are an interaction with the same people. While there could be at least some suspicion on whether the second was done by the police on their entrance using Raffaele's apartment key, the first period (A: 22:05- 00:58) looks like somebody surfing and messaging.
I have to add that, about the cancellation of data on log files, this doesn't happen through casual operations on the OS and especially doesn't give those allegedly 'incomplete' records as a result. The Mac was used every day between nov 2 and nov 6 and was always connected. Logged actions like file openings are still there, recorded in a sequence.
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Offline Kermit


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:28 pm   Post subject: AND IF YOU BELIEVED THAT ....   

Yummi wrote:
The first obvious - or more obvious thing for me - in reading about this news is the difference we cans see in the results, between the analysis from the night of murder (nov 2) and the night of arrest (nov 5). In both cases the expert’s interpretation is a “human interaction”. But the content of those two reports is in fact extremely different. Almost totally opposite. I look forward for a feedback from a telecommunication technician like Kermit.

Hi Yummi, I'm flattered, but I have to admit that I am a mere IT consultant. When I need expert TCP/IP or operating system knowledge, I have to find it in others.

I agree with you that if the Sollecito computer experts base their conclusions principally on the ISP data, they have stepped away from the actual computer (which has many sources of information concerning use and if that use is more likely human or not). Without further information (which I doubt they will even be providing to the court in their report), I'm not at all convinced of their conclusions. As I mentioned in my prior post, there are a number of explanations for a non human connection to http://www.apple.com (which in any case, with reference to the Nov.1 supposed activity, is not incompatible with the crime timeline).

Yummi wrote:
Now, lets look to the computer activity of nov 5-6 (22:05 – 9:07).
This instead looks like *two* different periods of human activities ( A: 22:05- 00:58, and B: 9:07- following minutes) Since Raffaele’s Mac was protected by password, this means a person accessing the pc was allowed to work beyond two passwords: the machine access password and the Fastweb customer password. But also, this person had access though two application to accounts also protected by passwords.
..........
The cracking of Fastweb wireless access keysin Italy is almost like a national sport for kids; this can be done obviously only when there is one genuine connection activated in the area. Those features of Fastweb mean their server records, would be unreliable as a source if considered alone. Only the pc data are interesting.

I just checked my wireless connections, here as I type. I see eight, five of which are protected, and three which are not. One of my neighbours is always telling me to use his if I ever have problems. I could use his or the other two and no one would ever know.

Wait, I'm going to do an experiment. I'm joining one of my neighbours' wireless networks on my other machine. Now I'm typing "http://www.apple.com" in the address bar of my browser, <enter>. ...... Hey! From the ISP records, it looks like my neighbour just connected to http://www.apple.com during 4 seconds!!! And he's away on a business trip!! (or is being interrogated by the police).

Conclusion 1: the abundant and boring application and system log information on the computer (Raffaele's Mac) is what Raffaele's IT experts should have looked at if they wanted a good, clear view of his activity. ((Ah, maybe that's exactly why they looked elsewhere for records of computer activity))

Conclusion 2: it would have been hard for the police / spies to have accessed Raffaele's computer without his password AKIRAFUGA (the violent Manga character), which the police didn't know until January 2008. (the user password in Mac is the same as the screen saver password)

Yummi wrote:
But it makes even les sense that the cop surfed on the internet the next morning, after a pause (00:58-9:07) during which he/she was maybe sleeping there for about 8 hours.
..... But next morning, this policeman checked the news on the web, and what news? The latest ANSA report about arrest and about a press conference. Think: who could be such an awake policeman who gets up to date on the evolving of the case by checking the latest ANSA news?

In the land of smoke and mirrors, any distraction from the truth is a valid defence tactic.

BTW, I found that brief ANSA report, which was allegedly viewed at 9:07 on November 6. There may be a simple explanation related to different computer clocks, but in principal it wasn't posted until 9:20 (and if it was freshly posted, if it is true that someone at RS's computer viewed that page, they must have been lucky and saw it just as it was posted).
http://www.wuz.it/news/43857/inglese-uccisa-eseguiti.html

Yummi wrote:
And finally, above all, as taxpayer I also wonder what agency dispatches personnel for the whole night to have a picnic, and a pyjama party – with an 8 hours rest, including breakfast time – sleeping inside a witness’ or suspect’s apartment? And for what purpose? I have a problem on this point not only as a taxpayer, but even if I had to write a screenplay for a third class spy story.

cl-)
Thanks Yummi for your analysis. Don't get too frustrated with the logic gymnastics with which the "experts" try to fool us.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:05 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Kermit wrote:

"Thanks Yummi for your analysis. Don't get too frustrated with the logic gymnastics with which the "experts" try to fool us."


I second that motion. It is painstaking, it is thorough, it is very clear. And even to a relatively unsophisticated user like myself, it is logical. I know enough about wireless networks to tap into those belonging to others remotely if they are not protected by a big long password. I don't have to go into their house or apartment and sometimes don't even know for sure where they live exactly.

Also, and this is probably overly simplistic, but don't y'all think that if AK and RS had spent the night of November 1 watching Stardust in addition to Amélie they would have mentioned this at some point in the last two years?

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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:31 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
--- snip ---
Also, and this is probably overly simplistic, but don't y'all think that if AK and RS had spent the night of November 1 watching Stardust in addition to Amélie they would have mentioned this at some point in the last two years?
--- snap ---


Exactly. Instead they came up with lies that have been easy to discover for the police. I believe that Raffaele's first lie (he said he was at a party with friend/s) was made, because he thought he never would be investigated. They both were so sure of that. That's the reason why Amanda Knox broke down when the SMS was shown to her. She simply didn't count on that. She thought she was safe.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:42 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

martin wrote:
Dear Skeptical,
There are three words in your postage stamp; are these words the corporate mission statement
of a certain seattle-based pressuregroup and do they mean:

Liberté = Free ak and rs!

Egalité = All defendants are equal but caucasian americans and europeans are more equal
than african immigrants

Fraternité = Donate all you can afford to our cause



Jamais ! Quel sacrilège !

_________________
Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point; on le sait en mille choses.
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Offline martin


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:28 pm

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:05 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

I wonder how rg will react when he finds out that they try to shift all the blame on him.
Maybe he will become so enraged that he retaliates by telling the truth. Possible?
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:19 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

martin wrote:
I wonder how rg will react when he finds out that they try to shift all the blame on him.
Maybe he will become so enraged that he retaliates by telling the truth. Possible?


He must know that already. He will come up with a new story that can be the truth, only partially true or a new gigantic lie. I wonder what it will be.

I am sure that he won't maintain his first story exactly, as it didn't help him. He must give some more information as he already knows that his last story wasn't convincing. If he is as guilty as AK + RS then I wouldn't expect too much from his appeal and the revelations that might come with it.
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Offline Yummi


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Location: Bunga-Bunga Republic

PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:33 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

I wonder how rg will react when he finds out that they try to shift all the blame on him.
Maybe he will become so enraged that he retaliates by telling the truth. Possible?


I consider that Amanda's defence - nor her family - avoided state clearly that RG was the lone perpetrator. In this their line of defence differs from raffael'e. In a certain degree I see Amanda always covered him up, in a degree compatible with the evidence. Rudy is never "alone" for sure in Edda and others's statement and I read this as a cautional free room, left by the defence, for a possiblity to use a further battle ground on a new line of defence/attack ,in case of complete failure: Amanda versus Raffaele?
Rudy could be outraged but he is not the only one who could have a growing strategic interest in telling something. All sides could have a secret "B" plan.
I recall a quote from (i think) A. Karpov: "Chess is the most violent of all games"
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Offline justlooking


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Location: England

PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:30 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Yummi wrote:
Candace on her blog seems open to accapt a comment about the pc's report only under the condition it is not "slanderous" towards Sollecito family member, but she also adds the condition that I must not sound like a second person using my alias.

She is making an allegation about me letting someon else use my password/machine, and requires from me to not to allege there could be people allowing others to use their passwords/machines, keys...

Because of her request and the content of our views, i am afraid there is a danger to fail to meet her requirements, so I will write here my opinion.



I'm just surprised how you can still hang out on that site considering the amount of abuse and slander they throw at you. You obviously enjoy a challenge ;).


Quote:
A digression. For those who don’t know about connectivity in Italy, among several national wireless providers Fastweb is one of the cheapest (in fact it is the cheapest but one: only Tele2 is maybe slightly cheaper). Those providers are cheap but they use a different protocol from others more secure services. They do not admit the use of fix IP addresses by their users, they assign .. only dynamic IP addresses to single machines, they also do not support any possibility for the customer to use a private LAN because they use, as a network, a LAN protocol themselves.
You can deduce that it is virtually impossible to know, from an analysis network traffic on the server, what machine is accessing the net. The Fasweb provider for this reason is knowingly less secure because it is impossible for clients to implement a supplementary hardware protection, as well as the impossibility to control possible traffic with other Fastweb machines. The cracking of Fastweb wireless access keysin Italy is almost like a national sport for kids; this can be done obviously only when there is one genuine connection activated in the area. Those features of Fastweb mean their server records, would be unreliable as a source if considered alone. Only the pc data are interesting.


I agree, ALL logs taken from an ISP need to be taken with a large pinch of salt. It should still be possible though to be reasonably sure of which client accessed which server by linking the DHCP logs which capture the MAC addresses of the home equipment with the web server logs that show the client public IP address. I'm not sure if Fastnet provided this level of information or not.

The rest of your argument is also quite convincing. I look forward to reading it again on the cook blog ;).

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Offline jhansigirl


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:27 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

justlooking wrote:
Yummi wrote:
Candace on her blog seems open to accapt a comment about the pc's report only under the condition it is not "slanderous" towards Sollecito family member, but she also adds the condition that I must not sound like a second person using my alias.

She is making an allegation about me letting someon else use my password/machine, and requires from me to not to allege there could be people allowing others to use their passwords/machines, keys...

Because of her request and the content of our views, i am afraid there is a danger to fail to meet her requirements, so I will write here my opinion.



I'm just surprised how you can still hang out on that site considering the amount of abuse and slander they throw at you. You obviously enjoy a challenge ;).


Quote:
A digression. For those who don’t know about connectivity in Italy, among several national wireless providers Fastweb is one of the cheapest (in fact it is the cheapest but one: only Tele2 is maybe slightly cheaper). Those providers are cheap but they use a different protocol from others more secure services. They do not admit the use of fix IP addresses by their users, they assign .. only dynamic IP addresses to single machines, they also do not support any possibility for the customer to use a private LAN because they use, as a network, a LAN protocol themselves.
You can deduce that it is virtually impossible to know, from an analysis network traffic on the server, what machine is accessing the net. The Fasweb provider for this reason is knowingly less secure because it is impossible for clients to implement a supplementary hardware protection, as well as the impossibility to control possible traffic with other Fastweb machines. The cracking of Fastweb wireless access keysin Italy is almost like a national sport for kids; this can be done obviously only when there is one genuine connection activated in the area. Those features of Fastweb mean their server records, would be unreliable as a source if considered alone. Only the pc data are interesting.


I agree, ALL logs taken from an ISP need to be taken with a large pinch of salt. It should still be possible though to be reasonably sure of which client accessed which server by linking the DHCP logs which capture the MAC addresses of the home equipment with the web server logs that show the client public IP address. I'm not sure if Fastnet provided this level of information or not.

The rest of your argument is also quite convincing. I look forward to reading it again on the cook blog ;).


You also need to take into consideration that the ISP will be bound by a data protection act specific to whichever country it operates in and will not supply all the information required to build up a concise picture of when where and who.

Client IP addresses will be screened by the ISP's internal IP address network so any access to web sites will be logged against the ISP public IP address and not the clients. To obtain any specific client web accesses the ISPs firewall logs would need to be scrutinised if the log still existed at the that time. These logs can get huge and may or may not be archived offline. The length of time these logs are available will also be constrained by the data protection act.

From the information I have seen most of the detail has been gleaned from RS's laptop and not the ISP.

I have not seen any mention of remote incoming connections to RS's laptop. One does not need to be in front of the laptop or inside the apartment to be able to access it.

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Offline justlooking


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Ah ok, so Fastweb NAT's all clients? Well in that case yes it would be next to impossible to show the client as they would all appear to be using the same public IP address.

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Offline jhansigirl


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

That's right the reason being that there is a limited number of public IP addresses.

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Offline ttrroonniicc


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:52 pm   Post subject: OT: some people think they are right and persecuted   

may be of interest to people in this forum

UK high profile news story this week

Already we are beginning to forget the horror of the story of Fiona Pilkington and her 18-year-old daughter Francecca.

We heard this week how bullying neighbours tormented them for ten years, finally driving Fiona to burn herself and Francecca, who had a mental age of four, to death.

What made matters so much worse was that she made 33 separate complaints to the police - yet was all but ignored.

How bitterly ironic it is that the police are now visiting her street in huge numbers, providing protection to the Simmons family who allegedly helped drive Fiona Pilkington to such a desperate act.

What scant consolation it must be for Fiona's grieving relatives that her death has at last stirred the police into action.

I will never forget that photograph of the Simmons family. There is nothing particularly wicked about them. And that's the horror. The four sons are smiling, relaxed, leaning affectionately against each other and their father. Their clothes are clean. They are posing, for goodness sake, in front of flowered wall paper.

Yet this is the family who allegedly tormented a woman to such horrific extremes after enduring a decade of terror.

I have spent the last ten months interviewing teenage boys in poor neighbourhoods. The Simmons boys are no worse, and even a lot better, than many of those I met. Like a lot of adolescent boys they did the reprehensible because it was fun - and because they could.

As one of the boys chillingly told Fiona Pilkington's 72-year-old mother: 'We can do anything we like to you and you can't do anything about it.'

In any normal society those boys would have been pulled up short - by their parents, by neighbours, by the police, by pillars of the local community - the first time they threw an egg at the Pilkington household.

But we no longer live in a normal society. No one censured them, so they were able to continue their reign of terror in Barwell in Hinckley, Leicestershire, for up to a decade.

The sorry truth is we live in the twilight years of a social experiment that has failed. The Pilkington family has paid the worst possible price for that failure.

In the caring, sharing culture of our social services, one fact gets forgotten. In order to protect the vulnerable, you have to take a stand. But our Government and our institutions are uncomfortable at exercising authority. And in the vacuum that this creates, bullies like the Simmons family move in.

As one policeman remarked to me: 'Sometimes it's not enough to be all pink and fluffy. You've got to be nasty sometimes. You've got to be getting stuck in there.'

The failure to get 'stuck in' by social services, schools and the police means they have the blood of people like Fiona Pilkington and her daughter on their hands.

Take the local community. In the old days, a neighbour would have seized boys urinating against a house and clipped them around the ear - or worse. Now what happens when a grown-up tells off a gang of youths? Those community-minded individuals risk getting stabbed or beaten or are themselves arrested by the police.

The Pilkingtons's neighbours complained. 'We tried our best to stop what was going on,' they said. They contacted the police and council. 'But our pleas fell on deaf ears.' Our local communities have been totally emasculated.

What about schools? What role did they play in socialising and directing the youths in Barwell? White working class boys like the Simmons brothers do worse at school than any other group. At 14, 65 per cent of them have a reading age of seven or below.

Schools today appear incapable of exercising the discipline and moral authority so clearly needed by teenage boys. In fact one of the Simmons brothers, Alex, boasted he has twice been expelled from school for 'fighting with teachers'.

So what kind of punishment can a school inflict? They can hold a boy in at break time or, of course, with the appropriate procedure and letters to the parent, after school for a few hours. None of the boys I interviewed looked on that as a life-changing experience.

When authority is ineffectual, bullies flourish. When one mother at a North Yorkshire school complained her son was being persecuted by a group of boys, his headmistress replied: 'There is nothing I can do about bullying.' At least she was honest.

Indeed in the topsy-turvy world of our ineffectual institutions, victims of bullying often find themselves cast as the villain simply for demanding justice. Many parents told me that if their child complained, they were the ones who suffered and were forced to withdraw the complaint or even move school - not their tormentors.

Nor is this attitude confined to schools. It is prevalent throughout social services and the police. A disabled man described to me what happened when he complained about his neighbours from hell.

The police and his social worker announced there was nothing they could do to protect him because he 'was alone and had no witnesses.' When he refused to back down, 'that was when the trouble really started'.

From then on, he suffered abuse not just from the neighbours but also the police and social workers who bullied and intimidated him into dropping his complaints.

Social workers stopped visiting. The police told him he should count himself fortunate for not being physically assaulted. 'Life,' remarked the man, 'has been a living hell.

hell

Leicestershire police have rightly been castigated by the splendid coroner in the Fiona Pilkington case, Olivia Davison. She is the only official in this saga to show authority, independence and a strong sense of justice.

How could anyone excuse their failure to respond to Fiona Pilkington's 33 desperate calls for help? They did not even notice - despite the usual police grumbles that they spend the majority of time on paperwork - that the same woman had been making the same complaint for ten years.

So-called Safer Neighbourhood teams were introduced by this Government specifically to deal with just this sort of problem. Two years ago, police on such teams told me they really believed creative thinking and council support could reduce crime and anti-social behaviour.

One young policeman in the north of England dealt with families like the Simmons by paying them a visit with council officers. 'We warned the families if their sons continued to cause problems, they would lose their council flats.' He paused, before adding: 'Well they wouldn't but they didn't know that.'

He beefed-up the local youth club and got boys causing trouble to take part in sponsored car washes. He worked for two years in the neighbourhood. 'By putting time and effort into it, it's been a real success,' he said.

So what has happened to this excellent initiative? Despite both public and police enthusiasm, the Government appears to have lost interest in neighbourhood policing.

Funding has been cut by £70 million and the police are not judged on how quiet they keep their patch - but how many people they have arrested.

One policewoman explained: 'Eighty per cent of my time is spent sorting out disputes between neighbours like the Simmons and the Pilkingtons. But that does not tick any of the right boxes. My sergeant tells me off for wasting my time on neighbourhood disputes - even though it makes peoples' lives a misery.'

As for the young policeman, he has been ordered to work on crimes outside his neighbourhood rather than concentrate on local policing.

In his absence, the weekend before I spoke to him, 200 youths had a mass fight which he claimed was 'all down to us no longer patrolling the streets.' He is so disillusioned he is leaving the force.

Gordon Brown stood up at the Labour Conference with the latest ideas for dealing with families like the Simmonses. He talked a lot about responsibility. But never once did he mention his Government's own responsibility for the death of Fiona Pilkington and her daughter.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/artic ... z0SdJwWqVn
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Offline ttrroonniicc


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:17 pm   Post subject: WHAT HAPPENED   

YES THERE WILL BE A VERDICT BASED ON CIRCUMSTANTIAL STATISTICAL OR "EVIDENTIAL" EVIDENCE

BUT WHAT HAPPENED?

WHAT HAPPENED TO POOR MEREDITH WHAT?

WHY ARE THEY SILENT THE THREE PROTAGONISTS

"FRAMED" OBVIOUSLY OBVIOUSLY BY EVIDENCE BUT WHAT HAPPENED ... IN THE NATION OF CONFESSION

WHAT HAPPENED

THERE MAY BE A VERDICT YES BUT WHAT HAPPENED
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Offline ttrroonniicc


Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:12 pm

Posts: 1073

PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:39 pm   Post subject: here is a place of disaffection   

Time present and time past
Are both perhaps present in time future,
And time future contained in time past.
If all time is eternally present
All time is unredeemable.
What might have been is an abstraction
Remaining a perpetual possibility
Only in a world of speculation.
What might have been and what has been
Point to one end, which is always present.
Footfalls echo in the memory
Down the passage which we did not take
Towards the door we never opened
Into the rose-garden. My words echo
Thus, in your mind.
But to what purpose
Disturbing the dust on a bowl of rose-leaves
I do not know.
Other echoes
Inhabit the garden. Shall we follow?
Quick, said the bird, find them, find them,
Round the corner. Through the first gate,
Into our first world, shall we follow
The deception of the thrush? Into our first world.
There they were, dignified, invisible,
Moving without pressure, over the dead leaves,
In the autumn heat, through the vibrant air,
And the bird called, in response to
The unheard music hidden in the shrubbery,
And the unseen eyebeam crossed, for the roses
Had the look of flowers that are looked at.
There they were as our guests, accepted and accepting.
So we moved, and they, in a formal pattern,
Along the empty alley, into the box circle,
To look down into the drained pool.
Dry the pool, dry concrete, brown edged,
And the pool was filled with water out of sunlight,
And the lotos rose, quietly, quietly,
The surface glittered out of heart of light,
And they were behind us, reflected in the pool.
Then a cloud passed, and the pool was empty.
Go, said the bird, for the leaves were full of children,
Hidden excitedly, containing laughter.
Go, go, go, said the bird: human kind
Cannot bear very much reality.
Time past and time future
What might have been and what has been
Point to one end, which is always present.



II

Garlic and sapphires in the mud
Clot the bedded axle-tree.
The trilling wire in the blood
Sings below inveterate scars
Appeasing long forgotten wars.
The dance along the artery
The circulation of the lymph
Are figured in the drift of stars
Ascend to summer in the tree
We move above the moving tree
In light upon the figured leaf
And hear upon the sodden floor
Below, the boarhound and the boar
Pursue their pattern as before
But reconciled among the stars.

At the still point of the turning world. Neither flesh nor fleshless;
Neither from nor towards; at the still point, there the dance is,
But neither arrest nor movement. And do not call it fixity,
Where past and future are gathered. Neither movement from nor towards,
Neither ascent nor decline. Except for the point, the still point,
There would be no dance, and there is only the dance.
I can only say, there we have been: but I cannot say where.
And I cannot say, how long, for that is to place it in time.
The inner freedom from the practical desire,
The release from action and suffering, release from the inner
And the outer compulsion, yet surrounded
By a grace of sense, a white light still and moving,
Erhebung without motion, concentration
Without elimination, both a new world
And the old made explicit, understood
In the completion of its partial ecstasy,
The resolution of its partial horror.
Yet the enchainment of past and future
Woven in the weakness of the changing body,
Protects mankind from heaven and damnation
Which flesh cannot endure.
Time past and time future
Allow but a little consciousness.
To be conscious is not to be in time
But only in time can the moment in the rose-garden,
The moment in the arbour where the rain beat,
The moment in the draughty church at smokefall
Be remembered; involved with past and future.
Only through time time is conquered.



III

Here is a place of disaffection
Time before and time after
In a dim light: neither daylight
Investing form with lucid stillness
Turning shadow into transient beauty
With slow rotation suggesting permanence
Nor darkness to purify the soul
Emptying the sensual with deprivation
Cleansing affection from the temporal.
Neither plenitude nor vacancy. Only a flicker
Over the strained time-ridden faces
Distracted from distraction by distraction
Filled with fancies and empty of meaning
Tumid apathy with no concentration
Men and bits of paper, whirled by the cold wind
That blows before and after time,
Wind in and out of unwholesome lungs
Time before and time after.
Eructation of unhealthy souls
Into the faded air, the torpid
Driven on the wind that sweeps the gloomy hills of London,
Hampstead and Clerkenwell, Campden and Putney,
Highgate, Primrose and Ludgate. Not here
Not here the darkness, in this twittering world.

Descend lower, descend only
Into the world of perpetual solitude,
World not world, but that which is not world,
Internal darkness, deprivation
And destitution of all property,
Desiccation of the world of sense,
Evacuation of the world of fancy,
Inoperancy of the world of spirit;
This is the one way, and the other
Is the same, not in movement
But abstention from movement; while the world moves
In appetency, on its metalled ways
Of time past and time future.



IV

Time and the bell have buried the day,
The black cloud carries the sun away.
Will the sunflower turn to us, will the clematis
Stray down, bend to us; tendril and spray
Clutch and cling?

Chill
Fingers of yew be curled
Down on us? After the kingfisher's wing
Has answered light to light, and is silent, the light is still
At the still point of the turning world.



V

Words move, music moves
Only in time; but that which is only living
Can only die. Words, after speech, reach
Into the silence. Only by the form, the pattern,
Can words or music reach
The stillness, as a Chinese jar still
Moves perpetually in its stillness.
Not the stillness of the violin, while the note lasts,
Not that only, but the co-existence,
Or say that the end precedes the beginning,
And the end and the beginning were always there
Before the beginning and after the end.
And all is always now. Words strain,
Crack and sometimes break, under the burden,
Under the tension, slip, slide, perish,
Decay with imprecision, will not stay in place,
Will not stay still. Shrieking voices
Scolding, mocking, or merely chattering,
Always assail them. The Word in the desert
Is most attacked by voices of temptation,
The crying shadow in the funeral dance,
The loud lament of the disconsolate chimera.

The detail of the pattern is movement,
As in the figure of the ten stairs.
Desire itself is movement
Not in itself desirable;
Love is itself unmoving,
Only the cause and end of movement,
Timeless, and undesiring
Except in the aspect of time
Caught in the form of limitation
Between un-being and being.
Sudden in a shaft of sunlight
Even while the dust moves
There rises the hidden laughter
Of children in the foliage
Quick now, here, now, always—
Ridiculous the waste sad time
Stretching before and after.

t.s. eliot
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Offline nowo


Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 12:35 pm

Posts: 186

PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Steady on! Don't take the world upon your shoulders.
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Offline Jumpy


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:27 pm

Posts: 231

Location: US

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:15 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Yeah!!! Just like Haloscan old times!
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Offline nowo


Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 12:35 pm

Posts: 186

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 4:05 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Poesie for the perps:

The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.

(Rubaiyat)
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Offline guermantes

Links & Gallery Moderator


User avatar


Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:49 am

Posts: 4882

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 4:51 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 - King of the Courtroom   

It's an evening of poetry TONIGHT!

rul-)

Hey Nowo, where did you find that quote? I want to read more!! Don't forget this quatrain (LXIX):

Yummi wrote:
I recall a quote from (I think) A. Karpov: "Chess is the most violent of all games"

He=Mignini?

"But helpless pieces in the game He plays
Upon this chequer-board of Nights and Days
He hither and thither moves, and checks ... and slays
Then one by one, back in the Closet lays …" 8-) ;)

Hi Jumpy,

I too miss the old days...

Jools,

witty avatar; I don’t mean the Sailor Moon, the new one! :lol:
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Offline ttrroonniicc


Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:12 pm

Posts: 1073

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:57 am   Post subject: the popular silvio berlusconi   

Reportage inglese: Berlusconi e le donne [Sub ITA]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJIwlT0r ... L&index=46
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Guermantes wrote:

"Jools,
witty avatar; I don’t mean the Sailor Moon, the new one!"

Yes, I have always liked Dumb and Dumber.

_________________
Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point; on le sait en mille choses.
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Offline guermantes

Links & Gallery Moderator


User avatar


Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:49 am

Posts: 4882

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 4:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 - Dumb and Dumber   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Yes, I have always liked Dumb and Dumber.

I think the soundtrack fits perfectly too :lol:.


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Offline The 411


User avatar


Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:49 pm

Posts: 1386

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 5:18 pm   Post subject: CREEPY & CRIMINAL CONDUCT   

Creepy Criminal Conduct
or How Sociopaths Behave Just After They Commit Murder-


For all those folks who believe that there is no "acceptable way" to react after your nearest and dearest is murdered. . . In fact, to some people, "anything and everything goes" in the hours and days after a violent crime has been committed in your own bedroom:

Check out this latest crime story (and note some unpleasant parallels to the Meredith Kercher murder case)

In the recent homicide of his own wife (21 September 2009) James Robert Ward,and his daughter (who is also the DAUGHTER of the poor victim!) behave eerily reminiscent of Amanda Knox, at the police station with her carefree inappropriate post-homicide demeanor. (e.g, turning cartwheels, yoga, kissing RS)


In this particular case,Ward, who is a Florida multimillionaire, has been arrested and jailed in the fatal shooting of his wife, Diane Ward.

This time, for THIS crime,there are no cartwheels. However, we see giggling, making faces, sticking out the tongue, suggestive gestures by the daughter to her father. The jailed Ward father even attempts a striptease in front of his daughter and sister-in-law.
Let's all party! Mum's dead!

mul-)

Ward was the one who actually called "911" to report his wife's death. When questioned, he first stated that HE shot his wife.

But, later, in jail, Ward changed his story to "she committed suicide." (just a minor slip of the tongue, that "I killed her" part.....Ya know, stress and all makes you say funny things...)

What's truly creepy and repulsive are all the videos released from his meetings IN JAIL with his daughter, Mallory, and the victim's sister, who visited Ward, together.
Note: this footage is just after Mallory's MOTHER was murdered. . . by her father!
No tears, no grieving, no sadness, just joking and lighthearted banter!
st-))
But, hey, who are we to judge how the daughter, sister, and husband of a murder victim are "supposed" to act?

As the FOAKers would say, this is probably "stress-relieving behavior", nothing more.

For the record, the Wards are an extremely upper-class (financially upper-class only--- morally, obviously, very, very low class) American family.

ALSO for the record, Mallory, Ward's eldest daughter, seen horsing around after her mother's murder, in the jail video, attends George Washington University in Washington, D.C., a very prestigious U.S. college. An honors student!!! la_)

Fair warning: the more you see of these reprehensible individuals, the more nauseated you will become. tu-))

First, for an overview of the case about the murder of poor Diane Ward, watch the "Today Show" segment from yesterday, September 30
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/
Click on the Today Show video segment entitled "What does suspect's bizarre behavior mean?"

Then, to see some of this unedited creepy family video:
"Raw Video: Suspect in Murder Dances, Laughs in Jail Visit"
http://tinyurl.com/y95fpkl


And for more evidence of how a sociopath acts after committing cold-blooded murder,
check this out.
"Does Isleworth millionaire murder suspect realize the trouble he's in?"
http://tinyurl.com/yca9djw

It's Amanda Knox deja`-vu.... all over again!!!

Rest in Peace, Diane Ward.
You are in a better place now, far from your ruthless, heartless, cold-blooded "family"...
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Offline Jools


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Guermantes wrote:
Quote:
Jools,
witty avatar; I don’t mean the Sailor Moon, the new one!

Hi Guermantes,

Yes, I got fed up of seeing Sailor Moon’s fugly face. She might be back another time though.
For now I like my new avatar best, I think is something charming about the ‘compagni di merende’ sharing a busy stool by the dining room table. sc-))
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Offline Jools


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

There is no end to Dumb & Dumber concocted lies at the cook’s smog.

Quote:
Posted by tufa at 10/1/09 11:21 a.m.
The popular notion is that Raffaele held the clasp while he cut it with a knife. But this is physically impossible, the clasp is so tiny, one could not both hold it and cut it at the same time. One would cut thier own fingers by doing so.

Posted by turtle dove at 10/1/09 11:31 a.m.
Securing a crime scene

Investigators left their forensic boxes wide open in show and tell fashion outside while Raffaele was standing directly beside the open boxes on a day when the wind was strong. The forensic equipment would have been contaminated even before their equipment was brought into the home. A proper crime scene has TWO permimeters of security. It is abusrd that Raffaele was allowed to hover around the investigators while they worked.


As for tufa-dumb stating that is physically impossible for one person to both hold and cut the bra at the same time, here is a demonstration of how it is possible by Sollecito’s defense Luca Maori:

Then the other turtle-dumber stating that the forensic equipment was contaminated with Sollecito’s DNA because he was absurdly allow to hover around the investigators while they worked. I think turtle dumber should get in touch with Bongiorno/Maori since they have had different theories for the DNA contamination, but it never occurred to them that it happened as a result of their client was hovering around the forensic equipment. I’m sure they will be ever so grateful for turtle dumb to come up with the right answer. hb-))


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Offline Nell

Site Admin


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Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:38 pm

Posts: 5041

Images: 0

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Jools wrote:
There is no end to Dumb & Dumber concocted lies at the cook’s smog.

Quote:
Posted by tufa at 10/1/09 11:21 a.m.
The popular notion is that Raffaele held the clasp while he cut it with a knife. But this is physically impossible, the clasp is so tiny, one could not both hold it and cut it at the same time. One would cut thier own fingers by doing so.

Posted by turtle dove at 10/1/09 11:31 a.m.
Securing a crime scene

Investigators left their forensic boxes wide open in show and tell fashion outside while Raffaele was standing directly beside the open boxes on a day when the wind was strong. The forensic equipment would have been contaminated even before their equipment was brought into the home. A proper crime scene has TWO permimeters of security. It is abusrd that Raffaele was allowed to hover around the investigators while they worked.



At least they are not afraid of sounding really stupid - oh, should I say dumb dumb, one of Chris favourite expressions! Yay-)
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Offline Nell

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Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:38 pm

Posts: 5041

Images: 0

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:20 pm   Post subject: Re: CREEPY & CRIMINAL CONDUCT   

The 411 wrote:
Creepy Criminal Conduct
or How Sociopaths Behave Just After They Commit Murder-


For all those folks who believe that there is no "acceptable way" to react after your nearest and dearest is murdered. . . In fact, to some people, "anything and everything goes" in the hours and days after a violent crime has been committed in your own bedroom:

...

Fair warning: the more you see of these reprehensible individuals, the more nauseated you will become. tu-))

First, for an overview of the case about the murder of poor Diane Ward, watch the "Today Show" segment from yesterday, September 30
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/
Click on the Today Show video segment entitled "What does suspect's bizarre behavior mean?"

Then, to see some of this unedited creepy family video:
"Raw Video: Suspect in Murder Dances, Laughs in Jail Visit"
http://tinyurl.com/y95fpkl


And for more evidence of how a sociopath acts after committing cold-blooded murder,
check this out.
"Does Isleworth millionaire murder suspect realize the trouble he's in?"
http://tinyurl.com/yca9djw

It's Amanda Knox deja`-vu.... all over again!!!

Rest in Peace, Diane Ward.
You are in a better place now, far from your ruthless, heartless, cold-blooded "family"...


I read about this case and the similarities are appalling. I watched the video and I was most impressed by the behaviour of the father and his daughter. They must be really glad their wife/mother is dead, otherwise there is no explanation for this creepy behaviour.
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Offline 007


Joined: Sun May 31, 2009 4:26 am

Posts: 9

PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:57 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

I'm still taken aback by this image from evidence in the trial. This came from PG-Shock.
Have cropped it this time. Does this look like fish blood to you? Surely they must have tested this knife? Anyone have details?


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Offline petafly


Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:08 pm

Posts: 278

Location: Switzerland/Germany

PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:37 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Just for your information OT: CBS 48 Hours producer Joe Halderman, the producer of the “The Amanda Knox Story” (remember, they wanted to send the 82nd Airborne Division over to Italy) has been arrested. He seems to have blackmailed David Letterman! huh-)
Link
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Offline Jools


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

petafly wrote:
Just for your information OT: CBS 48 Hours producer Joe Halderman, the producer of the “The Amanda Knox Story” (remember, they wanted to send the 82nd Airborne Division over to Italy) has been arrested. He seems to have blackmailed David Letterman! huh-)
Link


I can just imagine the crazy FOA blaming Mignini for this arrest.
Since the producer is probably acquainted with The Knox/Mellas PR Marriot agency, he can always give them a call. Oh, and maybe he should also enlist the valuable help Harry wilkens could offer with his thousands of twitter and Facebook 'friends'
:lol: .
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