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XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 - Oct 9, 09

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:01 am   Post subject: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 - Oct 9, 09   

XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 - OCT 9, 2009






This is the main discussion thread regarding the achievment of truth and justice for Meredith Kercher and her family. Meredith, barely 21 years old, was brutally murdered in her own home on the 1st November 2007 whilst studying in Perugia, Italy.

To read the previous main discussion thread, please view X. MAIN DISCUSSION, June 19 - July 17, 09

Michael (Co-Administrator/Moderator of Perugia Murder File)

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"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


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Offline lauowolf


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:51 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

While it doesn't look as if AK, RS, and RG all three started the evening with a single pre-meditated plan of attack, there's nothing to say that they did not begin with two, or even three separate agendas.
All of them "nasty," as it were.
My own thought is that AK and RS probably enticed RG to the house with an offer of serving up Meredith to him for unwilling sex.
He did not know her, and would have no reason to think she had a sudden yen for him.
And certainly she did not have sex with him willingly.
Since it seems unlikely AK and RS would chance offering an innocent RG a willing girl only to turn around and try to set up a rape, RG must have arrived knowing Meredith was going to be victimized.
As she was.
There is no sign she was able to resist him, no skin under her fingernails - with two accomplices there was no evidence of a struggle.
Whatever RG did, he knew she was unwilling, and he did it anyway.
So RG gets into the pants of a women he has wanted who would never normally accept him.
AK gets to see her criticizing roommate, "prissy" Meredith, humiliated sexually.
The girl who had looked down on AK for two-timing her hometown boyfriend was going to get taken down a notch or two.
RS gets the pornographic thrill of observing a rape, and the kick of violently controlling a helpless woman.
He even gets to use one of his knives to threaten her, and he helps his girlfriend obtain vengeance against her enemy.
(How sweet, the lovebirds are bonding.)
All three of them will be able to control her physically to minimize any signs of a struggle, and if they had cooperated on a joint cover story it will be their word against hers that sex with RG was voluntary.
RG may well have only intended to victimize Meredith to this extent.
If he had intended or understood from the beginning that Meredith would die, I believe that he'd have been involved in the clean-up, and quite possibly that he would have refrained from leaving intimate dna samples.
After all, if the original plan had been only that he rape Meredith, with his friends and co-conspirators to testify it was consentual, he would see no need to wear a condom, and he did not.
After all, he would not be denying that they had had sex, only that it was not a rape.
Indeed, the unprotected sex may have been meant as additional punishment for Meredith.
At this point, RG had no reason to want Meredith to die, rather the opposite.
When the night goes bad, though, he allows her to die.

It may be that the rape was as far as anyone's expressed plan went at the beginning.
But there were knives, and cruelty and humiliation alone may not have been enough for either AK or RS.
As soon as any of them started actually cutting Meredith, the notion of an acceptable joint cover story was blown.
My own belief was the knife was used merely a threat until after RG had finished the rape, and thereby tied himself to the crime scene, but then my own belief is that he was always meant to be a patsy.
AK and RS may either both always have intended it to end as it did, or perhaps maybe only one of them did.
The inadequate alibis tend to make me think it wasn't openly planned between AK and RS, but that rests on an implicit belief that no one would be quite that stupid or that arrogant.
It's clear that after they shed blood, the plan was to deflect blame first on the fictional burglar, then as a fallback on RG.
What I wonder is whether there would have been a further fallback sacrifice of one or the other of them, if the the physical evidence had not caught up with them both so quickly.
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Offline diana


Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:44 am

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 5:35 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

I have been following this case for a long time. I have to give kudos to you guys you are the best! Now I would like to give a little of my opinion. I think that to really solve this case you have to figure out who is the strongest personality in this. Is it RS, AK, or RG, who is the REAL leader here? Which one of these three could lead the way?
Details that I find confusing are:
(1) The entire situation with the broken window.
(2) Absence of cleaning rags, bloody clothing, bloody shoes
(3) Mysterious sighting of AK in a laundry mat
(4) RG's apparent silence (which certainly is part of the reason for a fast track trial)

Now questions for the above:
(1) Is it possible that the window was broken long after the murder, say closer to am wee hours of the morning?
(2) Likely the first thing that was done, was the quick and efficient disposal of these items. I am certain there are many dumpsters in Perugia.
(3) Perhaps AK and RS laundered the clothes they were wearing and actually had them on when the postal police arrived.
(4) Why is the guy pretty much keeping silent and can someone direct me again about his confusing confession that he saw another man rushing out?

Let me tell you if I was in on something like this, the FIRST thing I would do would be to get the clothes, shoes, rags, towels, etc. outta there. E
specially if I had cleaned up. Which is what is presumed.
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Offline malcolm


Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:26 am

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Location: Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:23 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

diana wrote:
Details that I find confusing are:
(1) The entire situation with the broken window.
(2) Absence of cleaning rags, bloody clothing, bloody shoes
(3) Mysterious sighting of AK in a laundry mat
(4) RG's apparent silence (which certainly is part of the reason for a fast track trial)

Now questions for the above:
(1) Is it possible that the window was broken long after the murder, say closer to am wee hours of the morning?
(2) Likely the first thing that was done, was the quick and efficient disposal of these items. I am certain there are many dumpsters in Perugia.
(3) Perhaps AK and RS laundered the clothes they were wearing and actually had them on when the postal police arrived.
(4) Why is the guy pretty much keeping silent and can someone direct me again about his confusing confession that he saw another man rushing out?


(1) Certainly this is possible. In fact, they probably would've cleaned up a little before breaking the window. Also, no one who was near the scene around the time of the car breakdown heard any glass breaking.
(2) I assume you mean, the first thing that was done, after the cleanup, which must've preceded the disposal of bloody rags and clothing. Then again, it doesn't seem that the cleanup was really completed. Were AK and RS satisfied with the cleanup? Had they intended to leave some bloody clues behind, outside of MK's room, to alert whoever was to be the first on the scene (Filomena?) that something had happened to Meredith? But then, she called Filomena before the Postal Police showed up, and admitted that she had been home already. Did she really expect that no one would be suspicious that she could take a shower in a bathroom in such condition?
(3) I'm not sure what happened to the supposed witness who saw AK washing sneakers with a dark man in the laundromat the next day. I would assume that it was a rumor, based on a twisting of the story about the running washing machine, except the RS is his prison diary (which I quoted yesterday) attempts to explain this sighting. What was presented about it at trial?
(4) Rudy hasn't exactly been silent - he did eventually implicate the other 2 in the crime and told pretty much the only version of the story that he could that simultaneously explains why he was there and puts the blame for the murder on the other 2. Why hasn't he told the truth? Because he's still trying to win on appeal, so he's waiting for the outcome of this trial (and I'm sure his lawyers are advising on this). Why didn't he accuse AK and RS when he first admitted that he was at the scene? Maybe because he was afraid that they, being witnesses to his involvement, would testify against him.

His testimony is scattered around, including in the Micheli report. You might have better luck isolating it on the TJMK site.
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Offline MikeMCSG


Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:14 am

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:24 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Michael

Your post on Hindley and Brady is incorrect. They met in January 1961 when she started work at the same firm and started going out after a Christmas party that year. Unless you believe some of Brady's subsequent and unsubstantiated claims about earlier murders their first victim was Pauline Reade in July 1963 which means he had a full 18 months to initiate her into his warped world.

Btw where did you hear the tape ? I've watched a lot of stuff on the case here in the UK and none of them have ever played the tape.
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:38 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

The trial is on. Aunt Dorthy has testified about a call from Knox, who said she had hoped to console John Kercher.

Karen Green from London will testify, probably tomorrow. She is apparently not from Meredith's bank where the 20 Euros was withdrawn from but from the Fraud Squad of Scotland Yard.
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Offline petafly


Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:08 pm

Posts: 278

Location: Switzerland/Germany

PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:43 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Quote:
Today in class will listen to two friends call, a consultant of his lawyers that he was in charge of the cell phone and another expert on the effects dell'hascisc.

Wow, today is the day they're gonna "prove" the amnesia claim. Hard job! wh-)

What a frustrating (and embarrassing) job for the defense having to turn every single white lie into scientifically proven facts. Doesn't suprise me that Giulia Bongiorno isn't coming to court anymore...

btw, i wonder how a pot expert looks like (an if he can speak fluently)... dm-)


Last edited by petafly on Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:44 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Some blogger predicting Knox's diary in 10 years from now?
:lol: :lol: :lol:

....The following is a fictional prediction of what Amanda Knox Prison Diary in the Year 2019 might look like after her conviction and 10th year in an Italian Prison:
“July 9, 2019 Diary Entry”
Prison in Italy
Dear Diary,
Today is my Birthday and as usual I have to bake a birthday cake for my visiting family. Is this any way for Italy to treat a star? My sisters are wearing their skimpy shorts again and are posing by my old House which enraged Italians 10 years ago and which mom blamed for my conviction. The press are paying them a lot of money for these pictures and they’re using some of the money to get me the latest remasters of the Beatles remasters which were last done in 2009. I can’t wait to hear the latest remastered version of “Hey Jude”. I blame the Italian Press for having my sisters originally pose in their shorts in 2009 by the House where Meredith suffered an icky murder. I have better legs then my sisters. Just because my sisters agreed to pose by that House doesn’t make them responsible for posing. I think Patrick Lumumba my old boss made them do it. Yeah, that’s the ticket.
CBS is doing a special story about my innocence this week in the United States which I’m sure will get me out of this Italian Prison immediately. Yeah, right! Mom blames all the CBS stories on enraging the Italians which resulted in my conviction. CBS new theory is that the person who assassinated JFK was behind Meredith Kercher’s murder not me.
Actually, Prison here isn’t such a bad deal after they passed a law giving prisoners unlimited conjugal visits and allowed us to smoke grass. I’ve had over 200 lovers in the last month alone and I bong almost every day. Cable TV here is great and we have a terrific home theater system. The other day, I watched for the 10th time the Amanda Knox Story on DVD starring Jenna Fisher Click Here and I never get tired of it.
Next to Charles Manson, I receive the largest amount of mail of any prisoner in the world. Each week I get thousands of marriage proposals, some of them from actual millionaires. Andy Dick, writes me almost every day!
I’m still doing my cartwheels and have learned to speak my 100th different foreign language since I’ve been here. Oh, I have to go now because my Award Winning MTV Reality Show, “Perugia Hills” is about to start filming its 5th season. I make more money then anyone from my Graduating Class from the University of Washington (Bloggers note: Amanda Knox received her College Degree from the University of Washington after the school decided to award her credits for “Life Experience”). I have a standing invitation to do “Dancing with the Stars” and will do “The Bachelorette” this year if ABC gets permission to film from Prison.
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 868

Location: New York

PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:49 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

malcolm wrote:
(4) Rudy hasn't exactly been silent - he did eventually implicate the other 2 in the crime and told pretty much the only version of the story that he could that simultaneously explains why he was there and puts the blame for the murder on the other 2. Why hasn't he told the truth? Because he's still trying to win on appeal, so he's waiting for the outcome of this trial (and I'm sure his lawyers are advising on this). Why didn't he accuse AK and RS when he first admitted that he was at the scene? Maybe because he was afraid that they, being witnesses to his involvement, would testify against him.


Hi Malcolm. I think you have it just right here.

However much interest AK and RS on the one hand and RG on the other hand had in implicating one another later, their first instinct would seem to have been to point in other directions.

RG did blame the other two quite strenuously at his trial. It kinda didnt work for Micheli because of the forensic evidence against him.

We believe Guede requested a deal if he was to sing at the present trial but it was turned down. Nobody within the system seems to have an interest in a deal with Guede that knocks 5 or 10 years off his sentence.

The truth may be that he deserves all of his 30 years and maybe in many eyes more.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:53 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

MikeMCSG wrote:
Michael

Your post on Hindley and Brady is incorrect. They met in January 1961 when she started work at the same firm and started going out after a Christmas party that year. Unless you believe some of Brady's subsequent and unsubstantiated claims about earlier murders their first victim was Pauline Reade in July 1963 which means he had a full 18 months to initiate her into his warped world.

Btw where did you hear the tape ? I've watched a lot of stuff on the case here in the UK and none of them have ever played the tape.



Hi MikeMCSG,

Well, to be honest with you I know the story of the Moors murders but I'm not an expert on the case. I deferred to my mother on it who kind of is. She's got and read just about every book on the case and on the pair that's been published and watched all the docs. It was actually she that told me about the pairs' relationship when I told her about this case and how short a time RS and AK had been together. She told me it was just like Hindley and Brady who also had been together for only a couple of weeks, so I blame her if it's wrong :) I'll speak to her again about it and see what she says and get back to you.

As for the tape, ahh this was years ago. I can't even remember the documentary or what it was called. I do remember the section of the tape that was played though. There were subtitles with it as well, as the quality wasn't so great.

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"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:22 pm   Post subject: ADMINISTRATOR NOTE!   

:!: Administrator Note:

Before posting on the trial starts in earnest as we start seeing today's press reports come out, I just want to get some Admin stuff out the way.

Now the recent DDOS attack. For those who thought the attack was by the FOA on PMF, I can inform everyone that wasn't the case. The attack was against a specific forum rather then directly on the FF server. So, clearly some forum had gone and got someone really, really upset. Any attack that was so big that it could also bring down the whole of FF's servers must have been huge. FreeForums were passing out the news to its members in the form of situation updates as it was all happening. When they reported that the attack was against a specific forum everyone's reaction was "(gulp), is it my forum?" Of course, FF never did tell us 'which' forum specifically it was, but rather only later they told us it was against one of the V2 forums. Well, PMF is a V3 forum so that means it wasn't us :)

Now, here's next thing which is quite important. Next week PMF is moving. We are leaving FreeForums and going it alone. It's just costing us too much being where we are. Just a few months ago it was costing us about $59 a year to be on FF. Then they put their prices up MASSIVELY and that combined with our increase is size and activity saw our costs rise from $59 to by my calculations over $1400 a year. No, there isn't a typo with an accidental extra figure in there, you see it right. So, we are moving.

This will have an effect a little like when we recently got upgraded, but not so severe. We'll lose our styles and all our Mods (sorry, that includes the chat box everyone). Some of those mods I can replace over time but it will have to be done manually, which will require coding and messing with the forum's root directory. So, I'll have my work cut out. The good news is, it won't be so severe as the upgrade. For example, we'll retain all our smilies, avatars and we'll also retain all the custom codes I've been adding to the board over the last 3 or 4 weeks. That's good news because a lot of those codes have been used by people to format their posts....so we won't lose any of the post formatting like we did last time, only styles and Mods. The good news is also the fact that I will be able to add custom mods myself, rather then just accepting (or not) the ones FF lets us have. Top of my list will be to add an RSS feed Mod for example, maybe an ATOM Mod as well. But anyway, I'll keep you all posted.

In the meantime, welcome to all new members, posters and readers, it's good to have you and I look forward to reading you :)

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"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Knox and Sollecito looking somber in court. I sometimes wonder if, of the three of them, it is Knox that might one day talk, at least some.

All three have in the past said things that were not too good for their narrow interests, Sollecito the least and Knox so far the most.

She and Guede seem to have flashbacks or at least some ongoing recall. To Sollecito, the whole thing seems just a bore...
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Offline The Bard


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Hmmm...have just read that Angelina Jolie has a heavy knife fetish. It sounds rather odd to me. Linked to self-harm as a child when she used to cut herself. The slightly more sinister:

"Angelina Jolie lost her virginity at 14 and used to cut her first boyfriend with a knife.

The former wild child turned goodwill ambassador, 31, says she was never suicidal but used to cut herself. She said, "I had my first boyfriend and had sex with him when I was 14. In a moment of wanting to feel closer, I grabbed a knife and cut him. Then, whenever I felt trapped, I'd cut myself. I have a lot of scars.""

Apparently she has already bought Maddox, her son, his first knife. She is seriously fetishistic.

So, interesting sexual link which had never occurred to me with the knife thing. If it was a heavy obsession with RS then I think I can see him bringing the knife, to impress AK. Maybe he had this sexual fixation too, and they had experimented already. Extreme experiences. Intense relationship. Something is binding those two closely together, this was no two week teen fling. Shudder....

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Offline Per Ardua Ad Altiora


Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:56 am

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Corrina wrote
Quote:
As far as courtroom attire goes, Deanna showing up in red, white and blue sure doesn't surprise me as she has been playing the "they hate her because she's American" card right from the first interview. I can almost hear Lee Greenwood singing in my head whenever I see her and yes, it's quite painful. But hotpants? Surely that's a mistake or a misinterpretation or something. Where I come from, hotpants allow for the lower portion of your cheeks to show. I'm hoping she was just wearing shorts that were a little, well, short. I know some of the photos I've seen of the dark-haired policewoman (can't remember her name), she dresses in what could be considered sexy, but still very classy. There's a not-so-fine line between classy and that other word. I think I'll treat this like the yoga/cartwheel thing. If a former travel and food blogger from Seattle can re-write history, why can't I?


Deanna showing up in court in "red, white, and blue" doesn't surprise me one bit either. However that has nothing to do with the "they hate her because she's American" theory. It doesn't surprise me because it is not at all surprising for an American to wear "red, white, and blue" on the weekend of the 4th of July. Since the 4th of July happens to be a significant date and has been since 1776 to any American. It is not out of place, odd, or surprising for any American to wear "red, white, and blue" on Independance Day. It may make for good controversy for those outside of the United States of America though. I think you over theorized on this one.

I think we also have to keep in mind culture clashes when someone is describing attire. America certainly has business attire, but the fashion is generally eclectic and informal for most. I can't comment much on the attire as I have seen no pictures of how they were dressed. I just know there are definitive culture clashes in fashion. What is deemed as spaghetti straps, halter tops, and camisole's are not uncommon for American women to wear. Although these may seem revealing to other cultures. Again I can not comment too far, I have not seen the pictures.
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

The Bard wrote:
Then, whenever I felt trapped, I'd cut myself. I have a lot of scars.""


Hi Bard. Interesting and certainly an angle worth knowing more about. The sad self-cutting phenomenon did not seem to be on many peoples' radars here in the US but a couple of cases have recently been examined on the more serious channels.
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Offline Tiziano


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

http://lanazione.ilsole24ore.com/perugi ... sise.shtml
Just about to read this report from La Nazione about the trial.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Amanda Knox 'Feared For Killer On The Loose'
12:58pm UK, Friday July 17, 2009

Nick Pisa in Perugia


SKY NEWS

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"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Tiziano


Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:06 am

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Amanda's "cousin" (so says La Nazione) said in her testimony, "Amanda would have liked to meet Meredith's father in order to console him, to be nice to him and to explain to him what she knew about how things went."

Dorothy said in court that after the murder Amanda had known that Meredith's father would arrive in Italy and that she had shown the desire to meet him.
"Amanda was terrified, frightened, confused and shocked because a terrible thing had happened and she did not know what to do" after the body of her flatmate was found and "she was also afraid that someone could come back to the house, that there was someone going around killing girls."

Dorothy, who lives in Germany with her family, explained that she often spoke on the phone to her cousin after the events which took place in Perugia on the night of November 1st- 2nd 2007. "She was alone," the woman said. "From the way she spoke to me you could understand that she was worried because she had nobody close to her. I was under the impression that she needed someone from the family to be at her side. She was frightened and she calmed down when she learnt that her mother would be arriving in Italy."

The woman also mentioned that she had suggested to her cousin that she should go to her in Germany, but that Knox had preferred to stay in Perugia "in order to help the police and answer their questions.

From La Nazione: http://lanazione.ilsole24ore.com/perugi ... sise.shtml
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Offline Tiziano


Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:06 am

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Per Ardua Ad Altiora wrote:
Corrina wrote
Quote:
As far as courtroom attire goes, Deanna showing up in red, white and blue sure doesn't surprise me as she has been playing the "they hate her because she's American" card right from the first interview. I can almost hear Lee Greenwood singing in my head whenever I see her and yes, it's quite painful. But hotpants? Surely that's a mistake or a misinterpretation or something. Where I come from, hotpants allow for the lower portion of your cheeks to show. I'm hoping she was just wearing shorts that were a little, well, short. I know some of the photos I've seen of the dark-haired policewoman (can't remember her name), she dresses in what could be considered sexy, but still very classy. There's a not-so-fine line between classy and that other word. I think I'll treat this like the yoga/cartwheel thing. If a former travel and food blogger from Seattle can re-write history, why can't I?


Deanna showing up in court in "red, white, and blue" doesn't surprise me one bit either. However that has nothing to do with the "they hate her because she's American" theory. It doesn't surprise me because it is not at all surprising for an American to wear "red, white, and blue" on the weekend of the 4th of July. Since the 4th of July happens to be a significant date and has been since 1776 to any American. It is not out of place, odd, or surprising for any American to wear "red, white, and blue" on Independance Day. It may make for good controversy for those outside of the United States of America though. I think you over theorized on this one.

I think we also have to keep in mind culture clashes when someone is describing attire. America certainly has business attire, but the fashion is generally eclectic and informal for most. I can't comment much on the attire as I have seen no pictures of how they were dressed. I just know there are definitive culture clashes in fashion. What is deemed as spaghetti straps, halter tops, and camisole's are not uncommon for American women to wear. Although these may seem revealing to other cultures. Again I can not comment too far, I have not seen the pictures.


As an Australian, I come from a culture where dressing informally is widely acceptable. However, there are "horses for courses", as we say.
Nobody would turn up at a funeral in shorts & thongs, and only the extremely stupid or those who know no better and have no hotshot defence lawyer to advise them otherwise, would appear in court inappropriately dressed. And I don't just mean the accused: that goes for the family and supporters too. When in Rome do as the Romans do, so waving big gold and green kangaroos might be OK at the tennis or the cricket, but it's not quite the best look at a murder trial, Corrina. So even if it is the good old 4th of July, leave your "red, white and blue" halter-neck and your hotpants at home and wear something more conservative and less flamboyant. Remember, we're in Perugia, not Memphis or wherever in the US of A.
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Offline Corrina


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Tiziano wrote:
Per Ardua Ad Altiora wrote:
Corrina wrote
Quote:
As far as courtroom attire goes, Deanna showing up in red, white and blue sure doesn't surprise me as she has been playing the "they hate her because she's American" card right from the first interview. I can almost hear Lee Greenwood singing in my head whenever I see her and yes, it's quite painful. But hotpants? Surely that's a mistake or a misinterpretation or something. Where I come from, hotpants allow for the lower portion of your cheeks to show. I'm hoping she was just wearing shorts that were a little, well, short. I know some of the photos I've seen of the dark-haired policewoman (can't remember her name), she dresses in what could be considered sexy, but still very classy. There's a not-so-fine line between classy and that other word. I think I'll treat this like the yoga/cartwheel thing. If a former travel and food blogger from Seattle can re-write history, why can't I?


Deanna showing up in court in "red, white, and blue" doesn't surprise me one bit either. However that has nothing to do with the "they hate her because she's American" theory. It doesn't surprise me because it is not at all surprising for an American to wear "red, white, and blue" on the weekend of the 4th of July. Since the 4th of July happens to be a significant date and has been since 1776 to any American. It is not out of place, odd, or surprising for any American to wear "red, white, and blue" on Independance Day. It may make for good controversy for those outside of the United States of America though. I think you over theorized on this one.

I think we also have to keep in mind culture clashes when someone is describing attire. America certainly has business attire, but the fashion is generally eclectic and informal for most. I can't comment much on the attire as I have seen no pictures of how they were dressed. I just know there are definitive culture clashes in fashion. What is deemed as spaghetti straps, halter tops, and camisole's are not uncommon for American women to wear. Although these may seem revealing to other cultures. Again I can not comment too far, I have not seen the pictures.


As an Australian, I come from a culture where dressing informally is widely acceptable. However, there are "horses for courses", as we say.
Nobody would turn up at a funeral in shorts & thongs, and only the extremely stupid or those who know no better and have no hotshot defence lawyer to advise them otherwise, would appear in court inappropriately dressed. And I don't just mean the accused: that goes for the family and supporters too. When in Rome do as the Romans do, so waving big gold and green kangaroos might be OK at the tennis or the cricket, but it's not quite the best look at a murder trial, Corrina. So even if it is the good old 4th of July, leave your "red, white and blue" halter-neck and your hotpants at home and wear something more conservative and less flamboyant. Remember, we're in Perugia, not Memphis or wherever in the US of A.



Hi Tiziano,

That was my point. I think PAAA took it the wrong way. I was well aware it was the 4th of July. I'm 40 years old and was born in New Jersey and am no stranger to this country. Hell, I've even worn hot pants, though never to court when on trial for murder. However, I have never prescribed to the whole idea of blind faith equals patriotism and my country right or wrong, which runs rampant here. I believe it was Fish of Marillion who once said "I will swear to have no nation, but I'm proud to own my heart". God/Goddess bless the whole world, PAAA. No exceptions.

Edit to correct: That should have read but never to court when my family member is on trial for murder. Reading that back, it looks as though Amanda were wearing the hot pants. I was a paralegal once and I can tell you, I've seen heroin addicts dress better for the seriousness of their situation. It doesn't have to be expensive clothing. SpraWlmart I'm sure sells cheap slacks and button down shirts if money is an issue. Better yet, Goodwill, to appeal to the hippie in you and reduce/reuse/recycle element. It comes across as blatant disregard for the court, for the victim and even yes, for herself.


Last edited by Corrina on Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Per Ardua Ad Altiora


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Tiziano wrote:
As an Australian, I come from a culture where dressing informally is widely acceptable. However, there are "horses for courses", as we say.
Nobody would turn up at a funeral in shorts & thongs, and only the extremely stupid or those who know no better and have no hotshot defence lawyer to advise them otherwise, would appear in court inappropriately dressed. And I don't just mean the accused: that goes for the family and supporters too. When in Rome do as the Romans do, so waving big gold and green kangaroos might be OK at the tennis or the cricket, but it's not quite the best look at a murder trial, Corrina. So even if it is the good old 4th of July, leave your "red, white and blue" halter-neck and your hotpants at home and wear something more conservative and less flamboyant. Remember, we're in Perugia, not Memphis or wherever in the US of A.


Which is exactly why I say I can not comment because I have not seen the pictures. I am confused on reports. On one hand I am reading AK sister was wearing Red, White, and Blue in court. There are tasteful clothing in the colors red, white , and blue. One of the videos I have seen of AK's sister coming out of the court room and even doing an interview had her is respectful clothing (Jeans Purple and black top and even wearing a light grey opened sweater) It is very possible the reason for wearing the colors was in honor of Independance Day for America.

I am also reading people questioning of what AK's sisters were wearing during photos taken by a magazine. Again I have not seen it, but being in the streets of Perugia is not a court room. Wearing a Halter top, camisole, or spaghetti strap is common in fashion. That being said the re should have been no photo shoot of them in front of the cottage. Even photos of Meredith, Meredith's friends, and several women in Perugia attending the University are wearing spaghetti straps or halter-tops. It is noit uncommon for women.

I wish I had photos to see, but that is all I can go off of
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Offline Tiziano


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Hi Tiziano,

That was my point. I think PAAA took it the wrong way. I was well aware it was the 4th of July. I'm 40 years old and was born in New Jersey and am no stranger to this country. Hell, I've even worn hot pants, though never to court when on trial for murder. However, I have never prescribed to the whole idea of blind faith equals patriotism and my country right or wrong, which runs rampant here. I believe it was Fish of Marillion who once said "I will swear to have no nation, but I'm proud to own my heart". God/Goddess bless the whole world, PAAA. No exceptions.[/quote]

Spot on Corrina: I should have addressed PAAA, not you! I'm 67 and at that age even the most recalcitrant bogan (I think you call them trailer trash) would agree that that is way too late to set off to a funeral in thongs (the Australian sort you wear on your feet) and shorts - what a horrible thought!!!!!!!!!!!!
May the Goddess be with you and may she convert the misguided.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

PAAA wrote:
Which is exactly why I say I can not comment because I have not seen the pictures. I am confused on reports. On one hand I am reading AK sister was wearing Red, White, and Blue in court. There are tasteful clothing in the colors red, white , and blue. One of the videos I have seen of AK's sister coming out of the court room and even doing an interview had her is respectful clothing (Jeans Purple and black top and even wearing a light grey opened sweater) It is very possible the reason for wearing the colors was in honor of Independance Day for America.


4th July? A court room isn't the place for making political or nationalistic statements, especially when in the court room of a foreign country and you are there as a relative of the accused and you have previously stated to the press that the person you are supporting is on trial because they are from your country. Leave the baggage at home, it doesn't belong in the public gallery of the court.

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Offline bucketoftea


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

On the one hand it seems trivial, but it's about manners and respect. The courtroom especially in the midst of such grave work is not the beach or the mall. Please tell me I'm right and that there are plenty of Americans who appreciate this and would not do the same.
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Offline Per Ardua Ad Altiora


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Michael wrote:
4th July? A court room isn't the place for making political or nationalistic statements, especially when in the court room of a foreign country and you are there as a relative of the accused and you have previously stated to the press that the person you are supporting is on trial because they are from your country. Leave the baggage at home, it doesn't belong in the public gallery of the court.


There is also nothing wrong with wearing the colors of your nation on a very important Holiday to your country. Like I said there are very tasteful clothing with the colors red, white, and blue. There are polos and oxford shirts with these colors, and there are dresses with these colors. Nobody has that I am aware of has provided photos, which is why I am finding it tough to know if people are describing court or the magazine photos. So were they wear short shorts in the streets or in court. If in court yes this would be unacceptable. I bet several different people in the court room were wearing different colors however be it purple blue yellow. Is there a certain color you should wear in the court room? Deanna wearing red, white, and blue on the 4th of July so long as it was a respectful outfit is perfectly acceptable in my opinion. It is just a color. Now I wouldn't say it was respectful at a funeral.
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Offline beans


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Re the fashion issue...

While certainly dress is much more casual in the US--or at least in Seattle, where people wear blue jeans to the opera, there are certain occasions where you dress more conservatively. I haven't been near a courtroom in years, but from what I see on tv, defendants and their families in the US usually wear nice outfits, not fancy or upscale, but nothing too casual or revealing either. Sometimes suits or sport coats and slacks for the guys, but at least nice slacks and shirts, and dresses or nice, unrevealing blouses/sweaters/jackets and long pants or skirts for the ladies. I think this is a time when most people realize that they need to make the best impression possible.

As a visitor to Italy from the US it is my impression that short shorts are pretty much out of place in Italy except on little kids--I would have thought the girls would have felt pretty uncomfortable in them. And, yes, I would think Amanda's defense team would have made a point of advising them how to dress to put Amanda in the best light for the court. They are not the Joe Blow family out to have fun and see Italy--they are in Italy for a very different, very serious reason. Shorts and halter tops for court? That wouldn't play well even in the US. nnn-))

I don't think wearing red, white and blue on July 4th is a big deal--as PAAA says, you can dress conservatively and appropriately in those colors (navy slacks, white shirt, red jacket for instance).

I have been thinking about this more and have finally seen the pictures of Deanna and Edda in court. I frequently wear red and navy together--I just like the colors and they suit me. I might even wear them to court, not to demonstrate any political bent, but just because they look nice together and in suitably dressy apparel, I think they can be appropriate. I certainly wouldn't wear the red to a funeral. But even in gray or black or white, if the clothing looks like you're headed to the beach, it's certainly not appropriate. I think it's the type of clothing they wear, rather than the colors, that are the real problem. I know Italy can be hot, but come on, this is a trial, it calls for conservative dress.


Last edited by beans on Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Corrina


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

bucketoftea wrote:
On the one hand it seems trivial, but it's about manners and respect. The courtroom especially in the midst of such grave work is not the beach or the mall. Please tell me I'm right and that there are plenty of Americans who appreciate this and would not do the same.


Bucket o' Tea, I can only assure you that this one sure as hell wouldn't. Then again, I prefer to think of myself as Human and an Earthling first and foremost. I feel little need to be on the "winning team". I just don't understand the mentality of the in-your-face, proud-to-be-an-American thing and I never will. I was born here. That doesn't make America any better or any less than anywhere else. It's where I am but it doesn't define me. Beware of false idols and graven images and all that, yet pledge allegiance to a piece of cloth? Might as well worship a head of lettuce. Propaganda at its finest.

PAAA, try Daylife. You can see a photo of Deanna, sitting next to Edda, in the courtroom. I can't personally tell if they are hot pants, but I can tell her choice of attire is not in the least bit respectful of the situation her sister is in and might even be considered a passive-aggressive move considering what she has said in the press. But that's just me and we all know what they say about opinions...


Last edited by Corrina on Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Per Ardua Ad Altiora


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

bucketoftea wrote:
On the one hand it seems trivial, but it's about manners and respect. The courtroom especially in the midst of such grave work is not the beach or the mall. Please tell me I'm right and that there are plenty of Americans who appreciate this and would not do the same.


I am American and I would not wear a tank top or shorts or even short shorts in court. That is where my area of confusion huh-) is coming from. I have read the reports of photos being taken in front of the house (which is disrespectful) and them saying they were wearing revealing clothing.

This is the first I have heard of them wearing short shorts in court though. The videos of them going into or out of the court room that I have seen have them in respectful clothing. To me the colors aren't a big deal I have no problem if they wore red white and blue so long as it was a respectful outfit for the courtroom, but if they were in short shorts and sport bra's in the court room this would be extremely unacceptable.

If anyone can clearify it would be extremely helpful

My question is who has photos.
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Offline Corrina


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

http://www.daylife.com/photo/072T5lN5v9 ... +Sollecito


PAAA, try this. There are many other courtroom photos at www.daylife.com. I hope this is helpful to you.
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Per Ardua Ad Altiora wrote:
bucketoftea wrote:
On the one hand it seems trivial, but it's about manners and respect. The courtroom especially in the midst of such grave work is not the beach or the mall. Please tell me I'm right and that there are plenty of Americans who appreciate this and would not do the same.


I am American and I would not wear a tank top or shorts or even short shorts in court. That is where my area of confusion huh-) is coming from. I have read the reports of photos being taken in front of the house (which is disrespectful) and them saying they were wearing revealing clothing.

This is the first I have heard of them wearing short shorts in court though. The videos of them going into or out of the court room that I have seen have them in respectful clothing. To me the colors aren't a big deal I have no problem if they wore red white and blue so long as it was a respectful outfit for the courtroom, but if they were in short shorts and sport bra's in the court room this would be extremely unacceptable.

If anyone can clearify it would be extremely helpful

My question is who has photos.


Try this link:
http://www.picturedesk.com/en/results/i ... -knox.html
You can click on any picture to enlarge.

http://tinyurl.com/mm9884
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Offline The Bard


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Per Ardua Ad Altiora wrote:
Michael wrote:
4th July? A court room isn't the place for making political or nationalistic statements, especially when in the court room of a foreign country and you are there as a relative of the accused and you have previously stated to the press that the person you are supporting is on trial because they are from your country. Leave the baggage at home, it doesn't belong in the public gallery of the court.


There is also nothing wrong with wearing the colors of your nation on a very important Holiday to your country.


Personally I agree with Michael here. I don't think court is any place to be drawing attention to yourself for any reason whatsoever. It just isn't respectful to me. This court is convened to find out who butchered a young woman. On exactly what level does wearing your country's national colours because of a 'very important holiday to your country' become relevant or appropriate to this deeply distressing court case? It just sounds like levity to me. The colours represent freedom and celebration to happy people miles away. Meredith has been murdered. She won't ever be able to celebrate anything, ever again.

Sorry PAAA, not with you on this one. Wear what you want after the court hearing, but nothing should draw attention away from the case in my view. It's not a 'day out', which someone should have pointed out to these girls.

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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:47 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Court attire?
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Per Ardua Ad Altiora wrote:
Michael wrote:
4th July? A court room isn't the place for making political or nationalistic statements, especially when in the court room of a foreign country and you are there as a relative of the accused and you have previously stated to the press that the person you are supporting is on trial because they are from your country. Leave the baggage at home, it doesn't belong in the public gallery of the court.


There is also nothing wrong with wearing the colors of your nation on a very important Holiday to your country. Like I said there are very tasteful clothing with the colors red, white, and blue. There are polos and oxford shirts with these colors, and there are dresses with these colors. Nobody has that I am aware of has provided photos, which is why I am finding it tough to know if people are describing court or the magazine photos. So were they wear short shorts in the streets or in court. If in court yes this would be unacceptable. I bet several different people in the court room were wearing different colors however be it purple blue yellow. Is there a certain color you should wear in the court room? Deanna wearing red, white, and blue on the 4th of July so long as it was a respectful outfit is perfectly acceptable in my opinion. It is just a color. Now I wouldn't say it was respectful at a funeral.



You're just not getting it. It doesn't belong in the court room, even if it's your national holiday - especially when you are both jointly and personally responsible for attacks on that country and it's legal system on nationalistic grounds. It doesn't matter how tasteful or even if completely innocently meant because others will look at it and interpret it as a political statement , will suspect that it carries a subtext of meaning and intent.

The very fact that you, others and I are having this debate on it right now and disagreeing, completely proves my point.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Per Ardua Ad Altiora wrote:
bucketoftea wrote:
On the one hand it seems trivial, but it's about manners and respect. The courtroom especially in the midst of such grave work is not the beach or the mall. Please tell me I'm right and that there are plenty of Americans who appreciate this and would not do the same.


I am American and I would not wear a tank top or shorts or even short shorts in court. That is where my area of confusion huh-) is coming from. I have read the reports of photos being taken in front of the house (which is disrespectful) and them saying they were wearing revealing clothing.

This is the first I have heard of them wearing short shorts in court though. The videos of them going into or out of the court room that I have seen have them in respectful clothing. To me the colors aren't a big deal I have no problem if they wore red white and blue so long as it was a respectful outfit for the courtroom, but if they were in short shorts and sport bra's in the court room this would be extremely unacceptable.

If anyone can clearify it would be extremely helpful

My question is who has photos.


Newsweek is a highly respected publication and its journalists and reporters are top-notch. I truly doubt the magazine or its reporter would make this stuff up. The larger point is that this attire -- call it patriotic, tacky, inappropriate, sexy, casual or whatever you want -- is not considered acceptable for the courtroom in a country like Italy. In the same way, wearing a bathing suit to the shopping mall in Saudi Arabia would be considered unacceptable. Even in Seattle it would be considered unacceptable.

My mother got married recently in the Catholic church, with a full mass and everything. It was a hot day, but nobody wore thongs, halter tops or shorts. The solemnity of the occasion seemed to require that people dress up. Even the youngest family members wore dresses (girls) and nice slacks and shirts (boys). It just seemed like the normal thing to do under the circumstances.

I don't think the reporter should be vilified for pointing out the obvious. It's no big deal, just the latest example of how the PR machine appears totally unable to deal with cultural differences. I am willing to bet that the reporter has access to all the lawyers and members of the prosecution. I am willing to bet that Knox's lawyers are feeling extremely frustrated: the entourage is not doing AK any favors. You can hate Italy and the Italians for that, but it's a fact. And you can be a patriotic American without waving flags in people's faces and going into courtrooms sporting your country's national colors in abbreviated form. It doesn't take much of an effort.

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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:04 pm   Post subject: KOMO4 Seattle news report-   

Kathi Goertzen reporting from the courtroom in Perugia:

Quote:
Her attorneys then played a police recording of one of the phone calls Amanda had made to her cousin. Little did she know, police were recording all her conversations, even though she had never been told she was a suspect.

Knox told her cousin that the questioning had become more intense..that she was scared, confused, hungry, and lonely. Nair said Knox was "falling apart" and insisted that her cousin come to Germany to be with her. But by now, Knox told her cousin, police had forbidden her to leave Italy and soon Nair heard on the news that Knox and Sollecito had been arrested.



Of course we all knew this, but hopefully the FOA/family/IW will now stop saying that "Amanda wanted to stay and help the police"!

[urlx=http://www.komonews.com/news/local/51025942.html]KATHI GOERTZEN, KOMO4 NEWS REPORT[/urlx]

If you click on the "Watch the story" link, Kathi also talks about the cell phone expert who testified about the cell phones being turned off the night of the murder.

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Offline Corrina


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:27 pm   Post subject: Re: KOMO4 Seattle news report-   

Tara wrote:
Kathi Goertzen reporting from the courtroom in Perugia:

Quote:
Her attorneys then played a police recording of one of the phone calls Amanda had made to her cousin. Little did she know, police were recording all her conversations, even though she had never been told she was a suspect.

Knox told her cousin that the questioning had become more intense..that she was scared, confused, hungry, and lonely. Nair said Knox was "falling apart" and insisted that her cousin come to Germany to be with her. But by now, Knox told her cousin, police had forbidden her to leave Italy and soon Nair heard on the news that Knox and Sollecito had been arrested.



Of course we all knew this, but hopefully the FOA/family/IW will now stop saying that "Amanda wanted to stay and help the police"!

[urlx=http://www.komonews.com/news/local/51025942.html]KATHI GOERTZEN, KOMO4 NEWS REPORT[/urlx]

If you click on the "Watch the story" link, Kathi also talks about the cell phone expert who testified about the cell phones being turned off the night of the murder.



Hiya, Tara. If you click on watch the story, you also get to hear Kathi talk about being in the courtroom and that "of course, she doesn't understand Italian". Fantastic! Now there's some coverage to sink your teeth into... qt-)
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Offline Per Ardua Ad Altiora


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Michael,

You have your opinion I have mine. We agree to disagree. I seen nothing wrong with the colors other than those who will be digging for things not related to the case (media) will make a fuss of it. It becomes a moot point because after seeing the pictures the shorts worn were what I consider inappropriate for a court room.

Thank you Jools Corrina etc. for the photos.
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Offline bucketoftea


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Well, tired, scared etc is consistent both with innocence and guilt. but COMPLETELY wigging-out be-) the way she did looks more suspicious.and a guilty Amanda would need to stay to try to control the situation and stay on top of Raff.
I think.
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

The FOA don't seem to mind Harry Wilkens at he Cook's table referring to the Knox sisters as
“the hotties posing outside the house”
Crazy lot! m-))

HWilkens:
"GENTE did cut the legs of the hotties posing outside the house, DAILY MAIL + NEWSWEEK + SKY NEWS + now many others are putting them in evidence with nasty comments..."
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Offline disinterested


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

My bet is that Amanda didn't want to leave Perugia because she felt she needed to be there to try to control whatever came down about her involvement in the murder (and possibly what Raffaele might say about her if he were on his own). If what we have mostly supported here is true, she'd already put a good deal of energy into changing, expunging or confusing the evidence--she was fixated on this, tense and frightened that if she left the scene the truth would come out and they'd come get her anyway.

As with all of it, she has to have her own "version" of what her motives were: wanting to help the police, wanting to meet Mr. Kercher and console him, wanting to do right by Meredith. She's been doing her own PR campaign from the beginning, she's just really not too good at it.

Didi

PS I note that I just restated what bucketoftea said above! Great minds etc...
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Offline The Bard


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:47 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Michael wrote:
Per Ardua Ad Altiora wrote:
Michael wrote:
4th July? A court room isn't the place for making political or nationalistic statements, especially when in the court room of a foreign country and you are there as a relative of the accused and you have previously stated to the press that the person you are supporting is on trial because they are from your country. Leave the baggage at home, it doesn't belong in the public gallery of the court.


There is also nothing wrong with wearing the colors of your nation on a very important Holiday to your country. Like I said there are very tasteful clothing with the colors red, white, and blue. There are polos and oxford shirts with these colors, and there are dresses with these colors. Nobody has that I am aware of has provided photos, which is why I am finding it tough to know if people are describing court or the magazine photos. So were they wear short shorts in the streets or in court. If in court yes this would be unacceptable. I bet several different people in the court room were wearing different colors however be it purple blue yellow. Is there a certain color you should wear in the court room? Deanna wearing red, white, and blue on the 4th of July so long as it was a respectful outfit is perfectly acceptable in my opinion. It is just a color. Now I wouldn't say it was respectful at a funeral.



You're just not getting it. It doesn't belong in the court room, even if it's your national holiday - especially when you are both jointly and personally responsible for attacks on that country and it's legal system on nationalistic grounds. It doesn't matter how tasteful or even if completely innocently meant because others will look at it and interpret it as a political statement , will suspect that it carries a subtext of meaning and intent.

The very fact that you, others and I are having this debate on it right now and disagreeing, completely proves my point.



I have never tried posting photos before, but looking through the pictures on that link made the contrast so stark I feel I have to try. Here goes:

Court-room Attire Vs. Partywear. And those are HOTPANTS
Attachment:
hotpants.jpg
Attachment:
partywear.jpg


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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Jools wrote:
The FOA don't seem to mind Harry Wilkens at he Cook's table referring to the Knox sisters as
“the hotties posing outside the house”
Crazy lot! m-))

HWilkens:
"GENTE did cut the legs of the hotties posing outside the house, DAILY MAIL + NEWSWEEK + SKY NEWS + now many others are putting them in evidence with nasty comments..."



Well, yes, Gente had the benefit of Nick Pisa's report and the reaction to it. Frank noted on his blog that the reporter refused to listen to him. Were photos in front of that house really necessary, with or without the legs cut off?

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Offline jhansigirl


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Disrespectful attire and 'macabre' photo shoots


Any publicity is good publicity when you're determined to make a killing (pardon the pun) on a book deal or an interview and it would appear that they are succeeding judging by everyone's reaction.

Forget guilt or innocence, right or wrong, truth or lie, good taste or bad. They're in it for the money now.
Else they face total ruination.


There should be a law against people making money out of someone's tragedy.

nnn-))

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Offline The Bard


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

jhansigirl wrote:
Disrespectful attire and 'macabre' photo shoots


Any publicity is good publicity when you're determined to make a killing (pardon the pun) on a book deal or an interview and it would appear that they are succeeding judging by everyone's reaction.

Forget guilt or innocence, right or wrong, truth or lie, good taste or bad. They're in it for the money now.
Else they face total ruination.


There should be a law against people making money out of someone's tragedy.

nnn-))



Sadly I think you could be right. Something doesn't sit right with the way this family are using the media. It's just not...seemly. I think they could be lining up for a bit of a media splurge when this is all over, one way or another. I can't blame them for needing money - there can't be anything left. I assume there will be a book, guilty or innocent. I just wish, like you say, that people did not make money out of someone else's tragedy.

Also, they did not need to hire a PR firm. So some of the cost is choice. Again, contrast with the Kerchers who have refused all offers of financial help, and have kept a dignified silence throughout...

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Offline bucketoftea


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Jools, they are barking, drooling mad! (and love it when the cook posts loads of blocks of untranslated Italian; looks like she's spamming herself, lol)

Poor Edda. The solution is there for her (but too late!). She will find a bazillion gorgeous, affordable scarves in Italy, and that's all she really needed to fix her low-cut look.
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Offline Corrina


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 5:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

jhansigirl wrote:
Disrespectful attire and 'macabre' photo shoots


Any publicity is good publicity when you're determined to make a killing (pardon the pun) on a book deal or an interview and it would appear that they are succeeding judging by everyone's reaction.

Forget guilt or innocence, right or wrong, truth or lie, good taste or bad. They're in it for the money now.
Else they face total ruination.


There should be a law against people making money out of someone's tragedy.

nnn-))


In God We Trust; it's right there on the almighty US dollar.

Well said, Jhansigirl.
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Offline The Bard


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 5:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Jools wrote:
The FOA don't seem to mind Harry Wilkens at he Cook's table referring to the Knox sisters as
“the hotties posing outside the house”
Crazy lot! m-))

HWilkens:
"GENTE did cut the legs of the hotties posing outside the house, DAILY MAIL + NEWSWEEK + SKY NEWS + now many others are putting them in evidence with nasty comments..."



Well, yes, Gente had the benefit of Nick Pisa's report and the reaction to it. Frank noted on his blog that the reporter refused to listen to him. Were photos in front of that house really necessary, with or without the legs cut off?


Absolutely unnecessary. And tasteless.

The picture thing worked. Here's another spot the difference comp.

Which one do you think is most upset about Meredith Kercher?


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Offline Rhonda


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 5:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -Re: Coutroom Fashion   

Many judges in the US will kick you out of the courtroom if you enter wearing halter or tank tops, or shorts. I have seen some courtrooms where this is posted. I believe this rule is up to either the individual courts or the judge.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 6:15 pm   Post subject: Shay   

Extended family rallies for Amanda Knox
By Steve Shay
July 17, 2009 updated 8 minutes ago


FOA Shay on the march again in the West Seattle Herald

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Offline Mutley


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 6:24 pm   Post subject: Re: Shay   

Michael wrote:
Extended family rallies for Amanda Knox
By Steve Shay
July 17, 2009 updated 8 minutes ago


FOA Shay on the march again in the West Seattle Herald



Shay Guevara launches his guerrilla campaign against the tyranny of balanced and objective reporting. His iconic T-shirt will be the quasi religious image of the anjelic one in a beret.
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 6:29 pm   Post subject: Re: Shay   

Mutley wrote:
Shay Guevara launches his guerrilla campaign against the tyranny of balanced and objective reporting. His iconic T-shirt will be the quasi religious image of the anjelic one in a beret.


:D :D :D
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Offline petafly


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 6:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Even the german tabloid "Bild", who loves to swing in opinion (led by "emotions") and was therefore the ideal target for the defense spin, isn't impressed by the defense work at all:
Quote:
And the defense has not succeeded so far to shake the evidence against the american.

A few weeks before they started to report a turnaround in the case, and i'm sure they really, really want to continue that, but they simply can't. The defense is too pathetic...
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Offline bucketoftea


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 6:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

From Shay, quote (thanks, michael, corrina, jools and all above who shared great stuff :-)
"Best-selling author John Grisham plans to write a book about the case. He was quoted in an Italian newspaper, La Stampa, saying that while he believes Amanda is innocent, “She appears to be a stupid little girl.”

“What Grisham said has no bearing on his actual opinion, I think,” said Mellas. “He cannot look too one-sided while investigating at this point..."

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Offline danny38_61


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 7:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

I am a long time reader of this forum and find this murder to be so tragic and appalling.
I've gone back and forth many times as to the guilt of AK or RS and admit it's hard to understand how a human being can do something this horrific as this. But to see AK in court acting the way she does, no regard for Meredith definitely seals it for me. Along with all the evidence of course.
My gut feeling is:
AK absolutely struck the fatal blow. RS just seems to meek.
There were no sex games at all.
No way was there anything consensual between Rudy and Meredith.
Rudy was denied and things went bad fast.

It just boggles my mind thinking of what exactly happens next and how horrible it was for Meredith.
I struggle putting those thoughts to words here in this forum. I don't want to be graphic or disrespectful.

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Offline danny38_61


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 7:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Corrina wrote:
jhansigirl wrote:
Disrespectful attire and 'macabre' photo shoots


Any publicity is good publicity when you're determined to make a killing (pardon the pun) on a book deal or an interview and it would appear that they are succeeding judging by everyone's reaction.

Forget guilt or innocence, right or wrong, truth or lie, good taste or bad. They're in it for the money now.
Else they face total ruination.


There should be a law against people making money out of someone's tragedy.

nnn-))


In God We Trust; it's right there on the almighty US dollar.

Well said, Jhansigirl.


Amen!!

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Offline diana


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

bucketoftea
Do you know how many book deals that there are right now about this case, I mean how many that are legit?
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Offline Mutley


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 9:38 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Shay Guevara - Biopic of a literary revolutionary courtesy of Wikipedia

Little is known of Shay's early life. He first came to public attention during his period of increasing radicalisation as a journalist for the West Seattle Herald, a splinter group of the fractious and notoriously vicious Seattle press. This was at a time when early editions would often turn up in dark alleys with the truth horribly mutilated or shot dead. Shay quickly lost his scruples and climbed the organisational ladder on the opportunity afforded by the P.I. Gang losing its hold over the city centre. Undermining and then replacing its original leadership, Shay wanted to see more militant action by the Herald and to break out of its Seattle myopia into a wider world of revolutionary action. Shay was seen as something of a visionary for his ability to forge links with seditious bloggers, internet revolutionaries, book writers and European revolutionaries and for his belief that the truth is something that can be created and maintained by mass hysteria and self hypnosis. A concept he expounded in his travel writings, 'The Cartwheel Diaries'. On return he even broke bread with the most radical elements that survived the P.I. implosion by taking them out for a nice Italian meal and tempting them with publicity and book deals.

Shay's increasing radicalism and need for global impact led him to align his organisation with the confederation of revolutionary groups known as the F.O.A. who were dedicated to the release of their leader and inspiration, codename AK47.
Seeing this as a stepping stone to his ultimate ambition of storming Fort Pullitzer with guns blazing, Shay disdained the bourgeois support of Judge Stomach-Heavey and his wishy washy letter writing followed by apologies campaign and they were soon sidelined and disappeared to tend their roses. Tactics of cyber bullying, propaganda blitzes with truth-free content were learned and appreciated. Unfortunately for Shay he was a man born out of time. The F.O.A was already fragmenting.

The Harry Wilkens Internet commandos continued their own bizarre path. Shay sidelined them not so much from revolutionary fervour as from the suspician that books of poetry entitled 'Venereal Disease' were just too esoteric even for FOA tastes. General Frank of the Perugia Shock Troops soon followed. Shay had begun to suspect that Frank was not the son of the great revolutionary film maker Eisenstein after all. He was probably just a guy who had taken some snaps of his Sardinian holiday and possibly made an amateur porn film or two. Nobody could say for certain as his alias was so good. But revolutionary journalist he was most certainly not. He had to go. Faction fighting soon broke out. The Baader-Mellas gang continued their campaign against fashion and taste in Italy and Germany and had great success. Even when brought before courts they continued unabashed and seemingly oblivious of consequences. But even here friction showed. Wilkens belief that true commandoes for the revolution are always pre teen hotties didn't help as some of the Baader-Mellas gang thought they had grown out of that stage and should be taken more seriously. Especially when in make-up and hot pants. Another serious rift followed when John Grisham of the notorious Grisham Gang joined. Charismatic and experienced in writing complete fiction he was seen by most members as a great catch. To Shay he was a dangerous rival. He attempted to forge an anti-Grisham faction but lost heart when he realised that the attempt to create a true mass movement had failed. Checking the internet he found that FOA was now only associated with crimes of fashion, venereal disease, Paul Ciolino who joined any movement that had 50 grand to spend and Ann Bremner. ANN BREMNER!!!. At least her cosmetic surgeon had been radical. Even more humiliiating, his attempt at going out Butch and Sundance style failed. The P.I had committed suicide without him. Close to suicide, Shay left for South America but internet forces were closing in and he soon found himself in front of a literary firing squad and was sent into oblivion.

See also 'Yoga and the Art of Prison Maintenance' by Goofy
My 14 Hours of Hell in a Comfy Chair by Harriet Potter
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Offline The Bard


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Best beloved, am off awandering - will try to look in whenever I can for updates. Be good, don't let that FOA camp wind you up on the Cess Pit. A bientot!

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Offline thoughtful


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Michael, I sent you all of the Friday and Saturday testimony by email a couple of days ago, in Word as you requested. Just checking that you received them and can read them, otherwise I can easily send them again.
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Offline Fast Pete


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

diana wrote:
bucketoftea
Do you know how many book deals that there are right now about this case, I mean how many that are legit?


Hi Diana

We know of six book deals that seem firm for the moment - and crime writer John Grisham seems to be threatening to leap in and get it seriously wrong!

Publishers are skittish because several of the writers are real heavies and are likely to command most of the market.

And then there is the book of Candace Dempsey which we unearthed and made public... The whole world holds its breath for that one.

Peter Quennell
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Mutley wrote:

Quote:
Checking the internet he found that FOA was now only associated with crimes of fashion, venereal disease, Paul Ciolino who joined any movement that had 50 grand to spend and Ann Bremner. ANN BREMNER!!!. At least her cosmetic surgeon had been radical. Even more humiliiating, his attempt at going out Butch and Sundance style failed. The P.I had committed suicide without him. Close to suicide, Shay left for South America but internet forces were closing in and he soon found himself in front of a literary firing squad and was sent into oblivion.

See also 'Yoga and the Art of Prison Maintenance' by Goofy


I think if you can weave Doug Preston and Charlie Wilkes into this story board, we have a feature length biopic in the works.

This had me rolling on the floor laughing. I was trying to figure out who could possibly be cast as Shay, and finally came to the conclusion that he could play himself. I mean, the man has charisma. Did you see his photo and hear his words, uttered with such clarity, on the Nancy Grace show. I teared up when he said "a cornucopia of DNA". Genius, sheet genius.

cl-)

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

bucketoftea wrote:
From Shay, quote (thanks, michael, corrina, jools and all above who shared great stuff :-)
"Best-selling author John Grisham plans to write a book about the case. He was quoted in an Italian newspaper, La Stampa, saying that while he believes Amanda is innocent, “She appears to be a stupid little girl.”

“What Grisham said has no bearing on his actual opinion, I think,” said Mellas. “He cannot look too one-sided while investigating at this point..."
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:



Do these people actually understand what they are saying?

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Offline bucketoftea


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Have fun, Bard. Just make sure you stay out of Farmer MacGregor's garden.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 1:12 am   Post subject: Ann Wise   

Amanda Knox Rejected Offer to Leave, Wanted to Console Kercher's Dad
Knox's Cousin Tells Court She Wanted to Stay in Perugia and Help the Police

By ANN WISE
ROME, July 17, 2009


ABC

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Offline The 411


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 1:46 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -Re: Coutroom Fashion   

quote="Rhonda"]Many judges in the US will kick you out of the courtroom if you enter wearing halter or tank tops, or shorts. I have seen some courtrooms where this is posted. I believe this rule is up to either the individual courts or the judge.[/quote]

YIKES! I could hardly believe what I saw in the photos showing AK's family's courtroom attire! be-)
The one photo in the collection from the link Jools provided us...the photo of
Edda and Deanna followed by Madison parading into the courtroom today...the one that reveals Deanna's obvious bra-less look...well, it gives new meaning to the expression.."keeping a breast of trial developments!" b-((
[BTW, Doesn't Jools ALWAYS provide the most interesting finds!
Jools...you're... a gem!!!] th-)

But back to the clothing.
Like it or not, YES, it DOES matter what we choose to wear. It sends a message.
The message these Knox/Mellas women/girls are transmitting is not a positive one.

Edda is a school teacher. Does she wear this skimpy kind of lingerie dress in the classroom with full décolleté on display? I certainly hope not!

I've got a little advice for 'ya, Edda.
If ya wouldn't wear it in the "aula" (classroom), don't even think about wearing it in the "aula" (court room).

Is it possible that this "look" is actually a deliberate strategy?
Perhaps they think (or have been told) that the hot pants and plunging necklines and the heavy make-up on the 14-year old- sister will somehow distract the jurors from the actual evidence? Perhaps they think/or have been told...wink, wink, sex sells ...can't hurt to be a little seductive in Italy, now, can it? Of course, this is the worst advice they could get.

The message the jury will receive is one of disrespect, and of being inappropriate and thoughtless, which will reflect poorly on Amanda.
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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 1:57 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

From the ABC article by Ann Wise:

Quote:
"I told her to come see me in Germany so she could calm down," Najir said. But Knox said no. "She said she wanted to help the police and answer their questions," Najir added. Najir also said that Knox had told her that she wanted to meet Kercher's father "to tell him what she thought happened. She wanted to console him, be nice to him, and tell him what she knew." Knox never got a chance to meet Kercher's parents.


What a load of BS, in my opinion. Why wouldn't Knox want to talk with Meredith's mother and family as well? This makes absolutely no sense at all. Sounds like Knox got another one of her "stories" all mixed up! la_)

If she had made an effort to attend Meredith's candlelight vigil on Monday night, November 5th at 8:00pm, she might have seen Meredith's family, (although perhaps the police had advised the Kerchers not to speak with Knox and Sollecito?). Plus, I'm sure Meredith's parents were in Perugia shortly after they were advised of their daughter's horrific murder, so they had been in Perugia for a couple of days already.

Another quote from the ABC article:

Quote:
The second witness at today's hearing was mobile telephone expert Bruno Pellero who testified that Sollecito was at his house on the morning of Nov. 2 because his cellphone was turned on at 6:02 a.m. in that location and remained there until 9:30 a.m.


What happened to Sollecito's cell phone at 9:30am? Did I miss something?

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Offline ttrroonniicc


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 2:19 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

[urlx=] http://tiny.cc/7ONvl [/urlx]

http://tiny.cc/7ONvl

tell me someone what does edda/mandies aspect indicate in this video ^

levity?


Last edited by ttrroonniicc on Sat Jul 18, 2009 2:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline The 411


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 2:33 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Tara wrote:
From the ABC article by Ann Wise:

Quote:
"I told her to come see me in Germany so she could calm down," Najir said. But Knox said no. "She said she wanted to help the police and answer their questions," Najir added. Najir also said that Knox had told her that she wanted to meet Kercher's father "to tell him what she thought happened. She wanted to console him, be nice to him, and tell him what she knew." Knox never got a chance to meet Kercher's parents.


What a load of BS, in my opinion. Why wouldn't Knox want to talk with Meredith's mother and family as well? This makes absolutely no sense at all. Sounds like Knox got another one of her "stories" all mixed up! la_)

If she had made an effort to attend Meredith's candlelight vigil on Monday night, November 5th at 8:00pm, she might have seen Meredith's family, (although perhaps the police had advised the Kerchers not to speak with Knox and Sollecito?). Plus, I'm sure Meredith's parents were in Perugia shortly after they were advised of their daughter's horrific murder, so they had been in Perugia for a couple of days already.

Hi, Tara!!!
I'm having a terrible time having messages post today. co-) But here goes another attempt:

First, I couldn't agree with you more about today's testimony...total B.S. --Amanda Propoganda.

The testimony about Amanda wanting so much to console Meredith's father rings so hollow and comes across as complete fiction.

Amanda has had nearly TWO YEARS TO make good on that altruistic stirring of the heart, to try to console Mr. Kercher.
As an innocent person, I want to know what exactly has stopped her from reaching out to any the Kerchers, in some way, in ANY of a number of ways...
As you wrote, why didn't she simply attend the candlelight vigil? Or write a letter? Or, make a public statement, a spontaneous statement in court. If words failed, why not send a card?

Maybe she thought "bleauggh" pretty much covered it---because it was the full extent of her feelings about the horrific murder of her dear friend...I'm sure the Kerchers were greatly consoled and comforted by that heartfelt expression And really, after THAT kind of eloquence, what more needed to be said about the tragic loss of their daughter, right? :roll:
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Offline ttrroonniicc


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 2:49 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

The 411 wrote:
Tara wrote:
From the ABC article by Ann Wise:

Quote:
"I told her to come see me in Germany so she could calm down," Najir said. But Knox said no. "She said she wanted to help the police and answer their questions," Najir added. Najir also said that Knox had told her that she wanted to meet Kercher's father "to tell him what she thought happened. She wanted to console him, be nice to him, and tell him what she knew." Knox never got a chance to meet Kercher's parents.


What a load of BS, in my opinion. Why wouldn't Knox want to talk with Meredith's mother and family as well? This makes absolutely no sense at all. Sounds like Knox got another one of her "stories" all mixed up! la_)

If she had made an effort to attend Meredith's candlelight vigil on Monday night, November 5th at 8:00pm, she might have seen Meredith's family, (although perhaps the police had advised the Kerchers not to speak with Knox and Sollecito?). Plus, I'm sure Meredith's parents were in Perugia shortly after they were advised of their daughter's horrific murder, so they had been in Perugia for a couple of days already.

Hi, Tara!!!
I'm having a terrible time having messages post today. co-) But here goes another attempt:

First, I couldn't agree with you more about today's testimony...total B.S. --Amanda Propoganda.

The testimony about Amanda wanting so much to console Meredith's father rings so hollow and comes across as complete fiction.

Amanda has had nearly TWO YEARS TO make good on that altruistic stirring of the heart, to try to console Mr. Kercher.
As an innocent person, I want to know what exactly has stopped her from reaching out to any the Kerchers, in some way, in ANY of a number of ways...
As you wrote, why didn't she simply attend the candlelight vigil? Or write a letter? Or, make a public statement, a spontaneous statement in court. If words failed, why not send a card?

Maybe she thought "bleauggh" pretty much covered it---because it was the full extent of her feelings about the horrific murder of her dear friend...I'm sure the Kerchers were greatly consoled and comforted by that heartfelt expression And really, after THAT kind of eloquence, what more needed to be said about the tragic loss of their daughter, right? :roll:


not only "bleauggh"
"i only knew meredith for a few weeks"
"i just want to get on with my life"
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Offline ttrroonniicc


Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:12 pm

Posts: 1073

PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 3:49 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Francesco Maresca, representing the Kercher family, asked Knox why, as English friends of the victim have testified, she exclaimed in the offices of the Perugia flying squad only hours after the murder that Kercher must have died a slow death. Knox replied: “I heard that she had her throat slit and from what I saw in CSI these things are not quick or pleasant so I said, gosh . . . bleargh . . . this brutality, this death . . . bleargh . . . it really did shock me,” Knox replied.

“It was a disgusting death. I imagined it was a slow death, a death that was shocking, yucky, disgusting,” Knox said, crossing her hands repeatedly in front of her chest.

Knox said she considered Kercher a friend. Had she suffered for the death of her friend, Maresca asked? “Yes, I was very shocked.” Did she remember Kercher in her daily life? “Yes I remember her; but, in the end I knew her for a month, and first of all I’m trying to get on with my life.”

http://tiny.cc/GSl2E (uk times)


Last edited by ttrroonniicc on Sat Jul 18, 2009 3:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 3:55 am   Post subject: Aunt Dorothy, a la news Italiana   

It was summer-hot in Perugia yesterday (34 degrees).
Here is the Friday morning news.
I expect there will be more news items when the evening editions go out.


Perugia News Digest 17 July 2009
Part 1

Resumption of hearings
– After a week’s suspension, the next hearings in the case are 17 July and 18 July 2009, probably the last two hearings before the summer vacation (6, 7)

Dorothy Craft-Naji
– Amanda’s cousin [cugina] (1, 2, 3), or: aunt (6, 7)
– she lives in Germany (2, 3, 4, 5) with her family (3)
– she testified in court with the assistance of a German-speaking interpreter (2)
– she called Amanda on the phone (2)
– she spoke (often (3, 4)) with Amanda on the phone after the murder (1)

– Amanda sounded “frightened and confused” (1, 4, 5) about what happened (4)
– “She was afraid that there was someone going round and killing girls” (1, 4), a hypothetical serial-killer (2): “Amanda was in terror, frightened, confused and shocked because something terrible had happened and she didn’t know what to do” after the discovery of her roommate’s body, and “she was also afraid that somebody would come back to the house, that there might be someone going around killing girls” (3, 5)

– Dorothy had invited Amanda to join her in Germany but she refused, saying it was not possible (2), preferring to stay in Perugia (3, 4) and be at the disposition of the police (4), “because she wanted to be of help to the police and answer their questions” (1, 3, 5), helping them in their inquiries, wanting to contribute to the uncovering of what happened inside the house at via della Pergola where her friend Meredith Kercher had been killed (2), even though the way in which she had been interrogated had made her so upset [ amareggiata , “hurt”, “saddened”, “embittered”, “upset”, “disappointed”] that she (Dorothy) advised her (Amanda) to contact the American Embassy, which, as it happened, never eventuated (2)

– Before being arrested (5), “Amanda had wanted to met Meredith’s father, to console him, be kind to him [essere gentile con lui] and explain to him what she knew about what happened” (3, 4)
– Dorothy explained in court that, after the murder, Amanda knew that Meredith’s father was arriving in Italy (or: was in Perugia (4)), and she showed a willingness to meet with him. (3)

– “She was by herself. From the way she was talking, I knew she was worried that she had no-one near her. I had the impression that she needed some family by her side. She was frightened and became more cheerful [rasserenata , “in better spirits”, “upbeat”] when she found out that her mother was arriving in Italy” (3, quoted as phrases in 4)


Further witnesses in the afternoon
– Another two expert witnesses called by the Sollecito defence (2, 6, 7): concerning phone records and the (dangerous (6)) effects of hashish (5, 6, 7)
– Two more friends of Raffaele’s (2, 6, 7)

Next hearing 18 July 2009
– Geneticist Adriano Tagliabracci (2, 6)


Resumption of hearings in September
– 5 more witnesses:
== 2 for Sollecito, Professors Vinci and Gigli (2)
== 2 for Knox, Walter Patumi and Prof. Carlo Caltagirone (2)
== and lastly, UK bank officer Karem [sic] Green (2)





Notes
1 – “Amanda’s cousin Dorothy testifies: she was afraid somebody would come back to the house” ANSA 17 July 2009
2 – “Amanda’s cousin Dorothy testifies” ASCA 17 July 2009
3 – “Assize hearing resumes: Amanda’s cousin Dorothy testifies” Nazione 17 July 2009
4 “Amada’s cousin: she wanted to meet Meredith’s father and offer her sympathy” Libero 17 July 2009
5 – “Amanda’s cousin: she was afraid someone would come back to the house”
Messaggero 17 July 2009
6 – “New hearings 17, 18 July” Fondazione 16 July 2009
7 – “Case resumes tomorrow, two hearings before the summer break” Unione Sarda 16 July 2009


The above articles are archived [ here ].
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Offline malcolm


Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:26 am

Posts: 239

Location: Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:37 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Tara wrote:
Another quote from the ABC article:
Quote:
The second witness at today's hearing was mobile telephone expert Bruno Pellero who testified that Sollecito was at his house on the morning of Nov. 2 because his cellphone was turned on at 6:02 a.m. in that location and remained there until 9:30 a.m.


Is Bruno Pellero testifying for the prosecution now? I can't see how this helps Raffaele at all. We already know that he was at home after 6 am since somebody played music on his computer after 5 am. That does nothing to disprove that he participated in the murder the previous night or even the cleanup. This only emphasizes the fact that he lied about being asleep until after 10 am.
Where did he go after 9:30 am? Back to Amanda's place? The laundromat? To buy more bleach? Dispose of the phones? Was he sleep walking? He's just digging himself a deeper hole.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 5:08 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

"What happened to Sollecito's cell phone at 9:30am? Did I miss something?"

A short call (41 sec) from his father.
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Offline budapesti


Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 1:51 pm

Posts: 16

PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 7:07 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

I'm beginning to think that the only way that the truth will come out is if RS is found innocent and AK guilty, if this is even possible. I can't imagine her being able to keep quiet about what really happened if RS walks.

Her narcissism reminds me of an ex of mine, and one thing I learned about that horrible experience is that narcissists will do absolutely anything to keep their holier than thou image.
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Offline budapesti


Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 1:51 pm

Posts: 16

PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 7:12 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattle911/ar ... 174043.asp

Listen to the last 30 seconds. Is that Edda conceding that things aren't looking good for Amanda? :)
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Offline Itchy Brother


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Location: California/U.S.A.

PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 7:42 am   Post subject: Re: Aunt Dorothy, a la news Italiana   

Catnip wrote:
– “She was afraid that there was someone going round and killing girls”, a hypothetical serial-killer: “Amanda was in terror, frightened, confused and shocked because something terrible had happened and she didn’t know what to do” after the discovery of her roommate’s body, and “she was also afraid that somebody would come back to the house, that there might be someone going around killing girls”

– “She was by herself. From the way she was talking, I knew she was worried that she had no-one near her.

Not only does this sound like a shameless plea for sympathy and a manipulative play on the emotions of the court, it also raises some disturbing questions about AK's sociability. How can someone live with a small group of peers for a couple months and not establish a close friendship with any of them? And how can someone be intimate with a partner for a few weeks and feel completely alone?

Maybe any friendships she might have made with the other roommates disappeared when they began to suspect she was a murderer. And Perhaps there is no solace to be found with an intimate partner when he and you share a dark and troubling secret. Okay, maybe she was alone after all.

This brings up a question: have any of the roommates expressed an opinion on AK's guilt or innocence? It seems to me they might be the best ones to have an accurate "reading" of AK's mental and emotional state surrounding the event. It also seems to me that Filomena's testimony did not help the defence (IIRC) so maybe she has expressed her opinion indirectly.
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Offline Tiziano


Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:06 am

Posts: 714

PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 8:38 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Per Ardua Ad Altiora wrote:
Michael,

You have your opinion I have mine. We agree to disagree. I seen nothing wrong with the colors other than those who will be digging for things not related to the case (media) will make a fuss of it. It becomes a moot point because after seeing the pictures the shorts worn were what I consider inappropriate for a court room.

Thank you Jools Corrina etc. for the photos.


For PAAA
http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php
Thursday, July 16, 2009
Attitudes Seem Hardening In Italy Against Knox Campaign And Defense
Posted by Peter Quennell

Perhaps this report would help you understand what a number of posters have been unsuccessfully attempting to convey to you.
If one is on trial in a foreign land, it is intelligent to behave in a way which will not alienate public opinion, let alone the members of the court trying your case. This includes anyone associated with you, relations, friends and supporters.
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Offline Jools


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 10:14 am   Post subject: Re: Aunt Dorothy, a la news Italiana   

Itchy Brother wrote:
Catnip wrote:
– “She was afraid that there was someone going round and killing girls”, a hypothetical serial-killer: “Amanda was in terror, frightened, confused and shocked because something terrible had happened and she didn’t know what to do” after the discovery of her roommate’s body, and “she was also afraid that somebody would come back to the house, that there might be someone going around killing girls”

– “She was by herself. From the way she was talking, I knew she was worried that she had no-one near her.

Not only does this sound like a shameless plea for sympathy and a manipulative play on the emotions of the court, it also raises some disturbing questions about AK's sociability. How can someone live with a small group of peers for a couple months and not establish a close friendship with any of them? And how can someone be intimate with a partner for a few weeks and feel completely alone?

Maybe any friendships she might have made with the other roommates disappeared when they began to suspect she was a murderer. And Perhaps there is no solace to be found with an intimate partner when he and you share a dark and troubling secret. Okay, maybe she was alone after all.

This brings up a question: have any of the roommates expressed an opinion on AK's guilt or innocence? It seems to me they might be the best ones to have an accurate "reading" of AK's mental and emotional state surrounding the event. It also seems to me that Filomena's testimony did not help the defence (IIRC) so maybe she has expressed her opinion indirectly.


This photos are from the moment Meredith's body was discovered.
To the left of the pic the 'lovebirds' by themselves, Laura (flatmate) in the light grey jacket walking away from them. As everyone described them or testified in court: always by themselves, kissing, cuddling, wispering or passing notes to each other in the police station. To the right of the pic is Filomena (flatmate) in the brown boots & glasses.




There are lots of pictures and video from the same moment that shows that while the housemates were together within a group the 'lovebirds' were always separated from everyone else.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:14 am   Post subject: Frank   

New Frankoid on the CESS PIT

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline petafly


Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:08 pm

Posts: 278

Location: Switzerland/Germany

PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:03 pm   Post subject: Re: Frank   

Michael wrote:
New Frankoid on the CESS PIT

He doesn't sound too enthusiastic. I'm a bit surprised how fluffy Raffaeles defense was. No testimony, a few experts who beat around the bush, lawyers who don't show up anymore... qt-)

Didn't Curt say something like this:
"You only heard the prosecution theory until now, things will look aaaaaaall differently when our teams have their turn. From what i know, our own and especially Raffaele's experts will show that...." bla bla bla

Now what? Wait until the final speech? You can't be serious...
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Offline Tiziano


Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:06 am

Posts: 714

PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:15 pm   Post subject: Re: Frank   

Michael wrote:
New Frankoid on the CESS PIT


Michael, I am speechless! Well, almost.
I have never before read any of this gentleman's reports, but reading this one leads me to say that "il vecchio proverbio non fallisce mai" - an old proverb never lets you down!!!
With friends like him, who needs enemies?
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:43 pm   Post subject: Nick Pisa - Cannabis Evidence   

Meredith Trial: Expert's Cannabis Evidence
1:27pm UK, Saturday July 18, 2009

Nick Pisa, Perugia

SKY NEWS

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:52 pm   Post subject: Dorothy Nair   

Amanda Knox feared a killer on loose after Meredith Kercher murder, court told
Amanda Knox feared there was a killer on the loose and wanted to meet Meredith Kercher's family to comfort them following her murder, an Italian court has heard.

From Nick Pisa in Perugia
Published: 12:50PM BST 18 Jul 2009


"Before giving evidence Mrs Nair, from Hamburg, Germany, was asked by trial judge Giancarlo Massei, if she wanted to testify bearing in mind her family relationship with Knox. She said she did."


THE TELEGRAPH

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

It's not true that Bongiorno is not present. She was there yesterday.

Quote:
The court also heard from mobile telephone expert Bruno Pellero, who was called by Sollecito's lawyers.

He described how records showed that Meredith's mobile phone had received a picture message at 22.13 on November 1.

He said: ''This message was received on Meredith's mobile phone via a cell which does not cover her house and is nearer to the garden where the mobile was found.''

The trial has already heard how Meredith returned home at around 9pm and pathologist Luca Lalli told the court he estimates time of death at around 11pm but Mr Pellero's evidence would suggest she was killed earlier.

Sollecito's lawyer Giulia Bongiorno said: ''This is clearly in line with Raffaele's alibi as he was at home the whole time.

''It's clear that if Meredith's phone had a message at 22.13 via a cell no where near her house then the accusation against Raffaele is crumbling.''



This argument was presented, unsuccessfully, in the pretrial, too.


Last edited by bolint on Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:57 pm   Post subject: Two Month Break - Edda Mellas   

Two-month break in Knox murder trial

Saturday July 18 2009


"Knox's mother Edda Mellas said the Italian holiday is a big disadvantage for them,

"The prosecution was able to take avery long time to slowly present their case.

"The defence was getting kind of squished we had to kind of hurry to get some things in before this really long break." "


THE DUBLIN HERALD

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


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Offline indie


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Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:15 am

Posts: 383

PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 1:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

http://www.usembassy.it/acs/emergency/emergency-arrest.asp

Quote:
An American consular officer will visit any U.S. citizen in jail as soon as possible after his/her arrest. Consular officers cannot obtain a prisoner's release. A consular officer's responsibility is to: ensure that the accused is receiving the same treatment that is accorded to anyone facing a similar charge in Italy, that the accused is receiving due process under Italian law, that he/she is not being discriminated against because he/she is American, that he/she is not being mistreated, and that he/she is being represented by an attorney of his/her choice. The consular officer will provide the accused with a list of attorneys from which the accused may select an attorney. It is the responsibility of the accused to reach agreement with the attorney over fees and conditions of the defense. The U.S. Government and its consular officers are not authorized to meet prisoners' expenses, including attorney's fees.



There is a reason why Amanda and her family did not seek embassy help and it is twofold.
A. They would lose the poor innocent angel being railroaded by the Italian justice system "card".
B. IMO the embassy had already been informed by the ILE about the facts of the case and there is NO question of Amanda's involvement. They know she has all the proper tools to defend herself and that is all they can do for a guilty U.S. citizen.
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 868

Location: New York

PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 1:12 pm   Post subject: Re: Two Month Break - Edda Mellas   

Michael wrote:
"The prosecution was able to take a very long time to slowly present their case.


And if there had been no cross-examinations by the two defenses they would be two months ahead of where they are now!

Pesky cross-examinations... Life is very unfair!
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Offline indie


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Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:15 am

Posts: 383

PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 1:18 pm   Post subject: Re: Two Month Break - Edda Mellas   

Quote:
"Knox's mother Edda Mellas said the Italian holiday is a big disadvantage for them,

"The prosecution was able to take avery long time to slowly present their case.

"The defence was getting kind of squished we had to kind of hurry to get some things in before this really long break."


There ya go Michael, Edda's quote clearly demonstrates the "Amanda is being railroaded" card is still in play. This family just can't stop themselves.

EDDA GO TO THE EMBASSY THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE THERE FOR AND COMPLAIN ABOUT THE WAY POOR AMANDA IS BEING TREATED IN THE ITALIAN COURT SYSTEM!!! I am sorry for shouting but I told her a year ago and she still isn't listening today.
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Offline Jools


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

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Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 2:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

bolint wrote:
It's not true that Bongiorno is not present. She was there yesterday.

Quote:
The court also heard from mobile telephone expert Bruno Pellero, who was called by Sollecito's lawyers.

He described how records showed that Meredith's mobile phone had received a picture message at 22.13 on November 1.

He said: ''This message was received on Meredith's mobile phone via a cell which does not cover her house and is nearer to the garden where the mobile was found.''

The trial has already heard how Meredith returned home at around 9pm and pathologist Luca Lalli told the court he estimates time of death at around 11pm but Mr Pellero's evidence would suggest she was killed earlier.

Sollecito's lawyer Giulia Bongiorno said: ''This is clearly in line with Raffaele's alibi as he was at home the whole time.

''It's clear that if Meredith's phone had a message at 22.13 via a cell no where near her house then the accusation against Raffaele is crumbling.''



This argument was presented, unsuccessfully, in the pretrial, too.


You are right Bolint. Is this the best Bongiorno can produce? Lots of Meredith's calls from the cottage were picked by the cell near Mrs Lana's garden, the judge at the pretrial told Bongiorno and Co. that it was not at all logical to think that every time Meredith made a phone call she would walk to Mrs Lana's garden to use her phone. bricks-)
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 868

Location: New York

PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 2:29 pm   Post subject: Re: Two Month Break - Edda Mellas   

indie wrote:
EDDA GO TO THE EMBASSY THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE THERE FOR AND COMPLAIN ABOUT THE WAY POOR AMANDA IS BEING TREATED IN THE ITALIAN COURT SYSTEM!!! I am sorry for shouting but I told her a year ago and she still isn't listening today.


Hi Indie. I commiserate! You did try.

This reminds me that the Senator from Washington State seems to have gone AWOL (I hope someone here has begun a list of those AWOL!)

She apparently talked with the State Department at one point.

We checked into this embassy intervention thing a few months ago, and the surprise was... it almost NEVER happens!

Out of some thousands of American arrests overseas every year, only a few dozen stirred any official response.

American embassies are in those countries primarily to make America LOOK GOOD!

And these citizens abroad who get themselves into mischief are not what the embassies want making local headlines.

In this case it will be a "dont call us we will call you" situation for sure.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 2:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

bolint wrote:
It's not true that Bongiorno is not present. She was there yesterday.

Quote:
The court also heard from mobile telephone expert Bruno Pellero, who was called by Sollecito's lawyers.

He described how records showed that Meredith's mobile phone had received a picture message at 22.13 on November 1.

He said: ''This message was received on Meredith's mobile phone via a cell which does not cover her house and is nearer to the garden where the mobile was found.''

The trial has already heard how Meredith returned home at around 9pm and pathologist Luca Lalli told the court he estimates time of death at around 11pm but Mr Pellero's evidence would suggest she was killed earlier.

Sollecito's lawyer Giulia Bongiorno said: ''This is clearly in line with Raffaele's alibi as he was at home the whole time.

''It's clear that if Meredith's phone had a message at 22.13 via a cell no where near her house then the accusation against Raffaele is crumbling.''



This argument was presented, unsuccessfully, in the pretrial, too.


Actually, at the time the article was written, it was true that Bongiorno was not present. Recent courtroom footage shows Sollecito conferring with one of the other lawyers. Also, there is no indication that the quotation from Bongiorno comes from the courtroom. She may have been contacted by phone. On the other hand, she may have put in an appearance yesterday.

_________________
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Offline mojo


Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:31 pm

Posts: 225

PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 3:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

bucketoftea wrote:
Jools, they are barking, drooling mad! (and love it when the cook posts loads of blocks of untranslated Italian; looks like she's spamming herself, lol)

Poor Edda. The solution is there for her (but too late!). She will find a bazillion gorgeous, affordable scarves in Italy, and that's all she really needed to fix her low-cut look.


how kind you are, bucketoftea...it would take more than a scarf.....
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Offline Jools


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 3:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

From Il Messaggero:
PERUGIA - Kathi Goertzen, KumoTv journalist, had just arrived yesterday from Seattle, the city of Amanda Knox, with a series of questions and curiosities to be resolved in these days of her stay in Perugia. Goertzen was sent to Perugia from the network for which she works, to follow the process that sees in the dock her compatriot and Raffaele Sollecito.

Ever been to Perugia before?
“No, and I find it beautiful, pity that I am here to work and not for tourism. The process is demanding both professionally and as a woman and mother, because I have a daughter currently studying in Madrid in Spain, and which is the same age of the protagonists in this affair.”

What impressions you bring from Seattle of the process under way?
“There it is view as a novelty very important and tragic. For TV I interviewed the family of Amanda twice.”

And what do they say?
"That the daughter is innocent and regret that can not do anything for her and for them this is a real tragedy.”

As a mother with a daughter like Amanda and Meredith, and as a journalist what do you think of the event?
“As a mother I have empathy, as a journalist I have to see it rationally.”

So then?
"I have the constant questioning whether Amanda has done or has not done that of which she is accused, Seattle is divided into two between innocent and guilty, but I'm ‘super partes’ I don’t know yet decide a verdict, I will try to make myself a idea more precise, following the hearings. “
Don’t yet know to decide a verdict, will try to get a more precise idea by following the hearing.”

What will you tell your viewers?
"First of all I want to say that I had never seen anything similar with regard to the process. In Italy, you have an incredible procedure, judges, lawyers in toga, popular judges with the tricolor fascia, hearings on Friday and Saturday. But the most surprising thing is about the interruption of two months for holidays, incredible when there are people in jail waiting to know their fate, further more will want to say of the two years in prison before sentencing? What if she was absolved? Then Amanda will have a story to tell!”


Knox cousin Dot from Germany:


Sollecito's defense telephone expert:
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 3:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

From Il Messaggero. Sorry no time to translate now. Can Tiziziano, Catnip or any one else please translate? Thanks!

SIAMO alle ultime battute prima del periodo feriale relative al processo in corte d’assise nei confronti di Raffaele Sollecito e Amanda Knox. Il processo sembra che abbia raggiunto una fase di stanca, dovuto probabilmente da un lato da un numero considerevole di udienze finora tenute e dell’altra dalla assoluta irrilevanza di buona parte dell’attività istruttoria prodottasi nel dibattimento.
Ci troviamo di fronte a un esito incerto, stante la natura prevalentemente indiziaria degli elementi a carico degli imputati. Ad onor del vero, qualche elemento con carattere probatorio a favore dell’accusa è emerso, soprattutto la presenza di Dna sul gancetto del reggiseno della povera Kercher e in quella sul coltello trovato in casa Sollecito. Questi due elementi di per sé possono costituire argomenti sufficienti su cui poggiare una eventuale sentenza di condanna. Di questo ne è ben consapevole la difesa di entrambi gli imputati, che ha dovuto puntare tutte le contro argomentazioni sulla eventuale contaminazione dei rilievi effettuati dalla polizia giudiziaria. Cioè non si discute se quel Dna appartiene al Sollecito relativamente al gancetto del reggiseno, ovvero se quello sul coltello appartiene alla Kercher e, o alla Knox, ma semplicemente se il suo ritrovamento sia il frutto di una errata procedura di prelievo effettuata dalla polizia giudiziaria. Le difese degli imputatati sostengono concretamente che nell’effettuare i rilievi, gli agenti non hanno proceduto alla sostituzione dei guanti per ogni singola operazione, determinando così un involontario trasferimento dei Dna sia sul gancetto del reggiseno che sul coltello. Avverso a queste tesi sono state le dichiarazioni degli agenti della scientifica che hanno materialmente operato, i quali, sotto giuramento e nella qualità di pubblici ufficiali, hanno ribadito la correttezza del loro operato secondo protocolli in uso, che prevedono appunto la sostituzione dei guanti.
Andando sulle questioni essenziali, contro gli imputati abbiamo sia il ritrovamento del Dna e la sostanziale confusione nella ricostruzione dei loro movimenti nella sera del’omicidio. Occorre dire che anche sull’ora in cui è avvenuto l’omicidio non vi è allo stato certezza assoluta. A favore degli imputati invece vi è la circostanza che nella stanza della Kercher, dove sarebbe avvenuto l’omicidio, a conclusione di un gioco erotico collettivo, non vi sono tracce né biologiche né di altra natura dei due imputati. La circostanza è obbiettivamente anomala. Se la ricostruzione effettuata dagli inquirenti è fondata resta obiettivamente inspiegabile di come in quella stanza non si è trovato né un capello né una goccia di sudore dei due fidanzatini. Ci troviamo di fronte ad un vero e proprio rompicapo, con la sensazione che quando si stia formando il convincimento in un senso, si deve ricominciare da capo perché il cerchio non si chiude aprendosi contrarie e diverse prospettive. In questo quadro, in linea teorica, gli imputati possono avvantaggiarsi del raggiungimento di due obiettivi alternativi: provare la propria innocenza o quantomeno raggiungere una situazione di dubbio che li porterebbe ad una assoluzione in ogni caso. Rimane però il dato oggettivamente forte dei rilievi del Dna effettuati dagli inquirenti che incombono come macigni su Raffaele e Amanda.
Docente Università
di Perugia
http://tinyurl.com/lavba6
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Skep wrote:
" She may have been contacted by phone. On the other hand, she may have put in an appearance yesterday."

I don't think she jumped ship.

http://www.telenorba.it/home/news_det.php?nid=11087
This Telenorba report says she was there actively deposing the witness.

MEREDITH: DISPOSTO DEPOSITO DOCUMENTI ESAMI BIOLOGICI
HA DISPOSTO CHE TUTTA LA DOCUMENTAZIONE DI LABORATORIO RELATIVA AGLI ESAMI COMPIUTI DALLA BIOLOGA DELLA POLIZIA SCIENTIFICA PATRIZIA STEFANONI VENGA MESSA A DISPOSIZIONE DELLE PARTI LA CORTE D'ASSISE DI PERUGIA DAVANTI ALLA QUALE SI SVOLGE IL PROCESSO PER L'OMICIDIO DI MEREDITH KERCHER.
LA DECISIONE E' STATA PRESA SU RICHIESTA DELLA DIFESA DI RAFFAELE SOLLECITO ALLA QUALE SI SONO ASSOCIATI I LEGALI DI AMANDA KNOX, CON IL CONSENSO PM.
I DIFENSORI DEL GIOVANE PUGLIESE, GLI AVVOCATI GIULIA BONGIORNO E LUCA MAORI, HANNO SOLLEVATO LA QUESTIONE DURANTE LA DEPOSIZIONE DEL MEDICO LEGALE ADRIANO TAGLIABRACCI, LORO CONSULENTE, CHE HA CONTESTATO L'ATTRIBUZIONE A SOLLECITO DEL DNA TROVATO SUL GANCETTO DEL REGGISENO DELLA VITTIMA RECUPERATO VICINO AL CORPO.
LA CORTE HA QUINDI SOSPESO IL PROCESSO RINVIANDOLO AL 14 SETTEMBRE PROSSIMO.
FISSATE ANCHE LE DATE DEL 15, 18, 19, 25 E 26 SETTEMBRE NONCHE' DEL 2 E 3 OTTOBRE.
ENTRO ALLORA LA CORTE - HA DETTO IL PRESIDENTE GIANCARLO MASSEI - ''SPERA DI ESAURIRE L'ATTIVITA' ISTRUTTORIA''.
18-LUG-09



Anyway, the next trial days have been also fixed:
Sept 14, 15,18, 19, 25, 26
Oct 2,3
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 5:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Bolint wrote:

Quote:
Skep wrote:
" She may have been contacted by phone. On the other hand, she may have put in an appearance yesterday."

I don't think she jumped ship.


I don't think that was reported - it was only noted that she had not been present for recent hearings. That does not mean she has jumped ship, but it certainly is telling with regard to her priorities.

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Offline jhansigirl


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 5:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Light Relief Warning

mul-)


Email from David Marriott
co-)
Dear Edda/Curt/Chris/FOA

I hope you are all well and having a great time in Italy. Sorry to hear that you were having problems finding somewhere to stay. Same old story everywhere! No-one likes us Americans. I just don't understand why. Beats me.

Anyway I hope the apartment is ok. Does it have air-conditioning? Internet? I hope so. I feel so sorry for you guys. It's so third worldish and primitive. Hey, I've just had a thought! The apartment that Amanda rented is empty. Why not call the landlady? She might give you a discount.

It'll be just perfect. The girls would love it. The guys downstairs are really nice. All keen gardeners I heard. You might be able to buy some pot plants from them. And you can send me a piccy of the girls in THE room! That would be just great.

Anyway, I just thought I would catch up with you and give you a progress report. Good news (and you guys deserve some) I bumped into Bill Gates last week. He sends his love to Amanda and says to hang on in there. He says he knows what it's like to be railroaded by a meglamaniac from hell and to have the world think of you as arrogant, conniving, unstable, a waste of space and over- hyped. Yeah, he knows just what she is going through. ss-)

The good news is that the Foxy Knoxy video game is coming along nicely and he has a definite date for release - 1 November! Yes he is aware of the date but he said it will be perfect so don't worry. gb-)

I had a video conference call last night with Barack and Michelle. They said to say hi to you guys and poor Amanda. They were sorry they didn't get the chance to pop over to see her last week but you know what the Italians are like. They couldn't speak a word of English so couldn't understand that they wanted to go to Perugia and instead kept bringing them bowls of pasta all the time. So they're keeping their fingers crossed and hope all goes well for Amanda. Anyway they want you know that they are still working on the Fort Knox breakout plan. surp-)

Well I guess you heard about the Pope breaking his wrist. oop-) Well that was DJ. Sorry about that. He took the 'twist his arm' instruction too literally as a persuasive technique. So there won't be a papal visit for the time being. But don't worry! Doug Preston came up with a brilliant idea. He suggested we send Oma and Doroty to visit him. They should be able to strike up a friendship with the 'Nazi' connection they have in common. They can take him some flowers and grapes and apparently he loves Twinkies so I've shipped a few packets to Oma and she should get them in a couple of days. So lets all hope that goes well.

I'm sending you and the girls swastika tee-shirts. This will go down VERY WELL. Trust me, this will make a real killing! ROFL Yay-)

BTW, wonderful photos of the girls in hotpants. Edda, that was brilliant! Went down really well. Everyone is talking about it. I reckon we should do a 'Foxy Knoxy's Hotties in Hotpants' fashion range. What do you think? I am going to talk to a couple of designers to see if we could come up with a few ideas on that. gb-)

I've had no news from the Queen of England yet so I am going to try another approach on this plan. I've sent some autographed photos of Amanda to Princes William and Harry. I guess that we will just have to wait and see. I'm determined to get a garden party invite for Amanda and you guys. So no worries there. I'll pull whatever strings need pulling. la_)

Lots of other things going on. All look good. BTW, Asics, Nike and Sketchers have all contributed lots to the FOA fund and they are sending free trainers to Amanda at Caponne.BIG thank you from them. Adidas want to get in on the act also and they are willing to pay lots so maybe we should work out how to mention them. Perhaps Amanda can make out that Raf wears Adidas trainers, something like that perhaps? We'll talk more about this when you get back. b-((

No doubt you've heard the great news that John Grisham wants to write a book about Amanda. He's a very successful author of pure fiction. He reckons that Amanda's story is better than any fiction he can ever write. You just cannot make up things like that. Tell that to the judge! gb-)

Well anyway JK Rowling wants to do a book also. She quite likes the idea of writing about Foxy Knoxy the witch who is having an extra-marital affair with Harry Potter.
She has a little sidekick called Frisky who is a Pink Rabbit. I've set up a meeting next month to discuss all this. This could be a real earner for us. pp-(

Almost forgot, the RFA have bought exclusive rights to use that photo of Amanda with the gun in their new advertising campaign. This is worth loads. Money Money Money. gang-)

OK, thats all the news I have for now but before I sign out I want to just say we've got two months to work on an alternative to the lone wolf theme.
I know it's worked really well so far but it's getting a bit boring now. It was brilliantly inspired and I still can't get over that guy thinking he saw Amanda in a red coat and not realising that it was actually blood. Our little red riding hood. No-one appears to have cottoned on to that one. Pheeeew. tt-)

So guys come on, I need some more ideas please. Turtle Dove / Charlie, any more thoughts on the alien abduction theory?

Goofy, I don't think the 'Terrorist Plot' idea will work. It will be bit too difficult to retrospectively include a bomb plot in all of this. I know we got away with police brutality story but I think we'd be pushing it if we introduced a bomb. Sorry.

Who came up with the Chucky-like Bunny Vibrator idea? Was that you Chris? Have you had any more thoughts on that? It sounded quite interesting.

Candace, did you get that Magic Mushroom recipe for Amanda? I think we should go live on the 'Í've just remembered something' plan as soon as the hashish expert has been in the witness box.

Now Edda please make sure that Amanda only announces that she suddenly remembers eating Magic Mushrooms and this memory was triggered by watching the Bridgit Jones DVD. Don't forget to change the DVD region setting on your laptop as Frank could only get hold of the European DVD.


I've got to dash now. Enjoy your holiday and good luck. See you back in Seattle (with Amanda of course). ghu-))

Best Wishes
David Marriott

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 5:40 pm   Post subject: Nick Pisa - Bra Clasp   

Knox Says 'Ciao' As Trial Stops For Summer
5:04pm UK, Saturday July 18, 2009

Nick Pisa, Perugia


"As she left court Knox, escorted by prison guards, she was asked what she thought of the two month break, she shrugged her shoulders and said ''ciao".



The court then heard from forensic scientists Professor Adriano Tagliabraccia who contested the way DNA evidence had been collected by the police forensic science unit.

During the hearing a bra clasp from Meredith's bloodied bra on which prosecutors say DNA from Sollecito was found was shown to judge Giancarlo Massei and the jury.

Professor Tagliabracci told the court how police scenes of crime video showed the bra clasp being found on November 3rd during a search of the blood splattered bedroom.

He then described how it was ''not properly bagged and missed for 47 days, when it was found in another location during a search of the bedroom on 18th December.''

''The clasp goes from one scientist to another and we don't see gloves being changed, we then see it being put on the floor and picked up again, these procedures are all wrong."

''By not changing gloves and by touching other objects cross contamination of DNA is highly possible.''

After the hearing Knox's mother Edda Mellas said things had gone really well.

"We heard today from a forensics professor who described how badly evidence was collected,: she said.

''It's terrible but Amanda is staying patient much more so than me and she is keeping positive.'' "


SKY NEWS

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THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 5:47 pm   Post subject: Komo - False Confession Expert   

Expert: DNA evidence against Knox's ex-boyfriend tainted

Story Published: Jul 18, 2009 at 9:32 AM PDT

Story Updated: Jul 18, 2009 at 9:39 AM PDT
By KOMO Staff


"Saturday's session was the last one in the trial before a two-month court recess.

When the trial resumes, the defense plans to call an expert on false confessions, who who will say that statements made by Amanda Knox after she was arrested were basically coerced by the interrogators, Goertzen said.

Goertzen said the prosecution's strategy is to present their final evidence in September and leave that with the jury when they go to consider the case and finally deliver a verdict, which could be as late as October or November.

By then, Knox will have been in Italian prison for two years.

Goertzen said Knox seemed more subdued Saturday than she had previously.

"I interviewed her mother this afternoon, Edda Mellas, and she said she's now going to prison for the next two months, she will not be getting out to go to a trial. She'll basically be in that prison in the heat of summer in Italy, and that's a tough thing to look forward to when, as her mother claims, Amanda is innocent."

Mellas also said the Italian holiday is a big disadvantage for the defense.

"The prosecution was able to take a very long time to slowly present their case.

"The defense was getting kind of squished we had to kind of hurry to get some things in before this really long break."

But on the other hand, Goertzen said, it appears everyone involved in the case needs to take some time off.

Some jurors have been falling asleep during testimony, and the prosecution and defense attorneys were shouting at one another on Saturday.

"I think everybody's just ready for a break," Goertzen said."


KOMO NEWS

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THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 6:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

To jhansigirl (aka Dave M):


:lol: x 2000

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Offline jfk1191


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 6:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

the jurors will get a needed rest, and they can go read up, on the internet, about this case.

i hate to say it, but the one time I was a juror on a manslaughter case, we all got really burnt out and just wanted to go home. I think and suspect a few just threw in to the majority to go home.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 6:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Quote:
Sky News:
The trial began in January and the 80 prosecution witnesses finished giving evidence in May, while the defence had less than half that number and several have failed to appear.


Who were these missing witnesses?

I remember:

- Cristian Tramontano (who said that Rudy had broken into his house)
- the plumber of Sollecito
- Juve

Who else?
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 6:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Quote:
" and the prosecution and defense attorneys were shouting at one another on Saturday.

"I think everybody's just ready for a break," Goertzen said.""



Well, it seems to me a normal course in an Italian trial. :D
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2308

PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 6:14 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

jfk1191 wrote:
the jurors will get a needed rest, and they can go read up, on the internet, about this case.

i hate to say it, but the one time I was a juror on a manslaughter case, we all got really burnt out and just wanted to go home. I think and suspect a few just threw in to the majority to go home.


I'm expecting a unanimous verdict in October.
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 6:23 pm   Post subject: Re: Komo - False Confession Expert   

Michael wrote:
Expert: DNA evidence against Knox's ex-boyfriend tainted

Story Published: Jul 18, 2009 at 9:32 AM PDT

Story Updated: Jul 18, 2009 at 9:39 AM PDT
By KOMO Staff


"
"I interviewed her mother this afternoon, Edda Mellas, and she said she's now going to prison for the next two months, she will not be getting out to go to a trial. She'll basically be in that prison in the heat of summer in Italy, and that's a tough thing to look forward to when, as her mother claims, Amanda is innocent."


KOMO NEWS

"Heat of Italian summer?" Skimpy clothes because of the "Italian heat?" yr-)
Sorry about busting yet another "Italian myth" ham-) but these are the average temperatures in Perugia during summer months (last four years):
June 26 C =78 F
July 30 C= 86 F
August 29 C =84 F
Seètember 26 C 78 F
I wouldn't say the above are very hot temperatures for a continental summer-unless one is from Alaska-
Perugia temperatures

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Offline Tara


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Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 6:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

From the KOMO4 report with Kathi Goertzen reporting from Perugia:
Quote:
But on the other hand, Goertzen said, it appears everyone involved in the case needs to take some time off.

Some jurors have been falling asleep during testimony, and the prosecution and defense attorneys were shouting at one another on Saturday.

"I think everybody's just ready for a break," Goertzen said."


For people unfamiliar with KOMO4 (ABC) here in Seattle, Kathi Goertzen has been a very popular anchor on our evening news for many, many years. She has worked for KOMO for almost 30 years after graduating from Washington State University with a degree in Communications.

That being said, Ms. Goertzen has been challenged with a brain tumor on which she has had 4 surgeries; 2 of them being within the last 15 months.

Some may recall the 2-3 part interview she did with the Knox/Mellas family, (it's posted here in our archives) and shortly after it aired she went in for surgery and was absent from KOMO for 10 months!

Since her mind may have been on more important personal matters this past year and a half, these are just some thoughts to keep in mind when reading Kathi Goertzen's personal opinions about the trial! sun-)

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 6:30 pm   Post subject: AP - Dust DNA   

Witness at Italy trial challenges DNA evidence

(AP) – 18 minutes ago


"Tagliabracci told the court that DNA compatible with Sollecito's found on the clasp of the victim's bra may have been the result of later contamination. He said "DNA has no wings, but can fly" and may have been transported onto the bra with dust."


AP


Turtle Dumb is going to be ecstatic b-((((

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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 6:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

"and may have been transported onto the bra with dust."

For some strange reason it was not, say, Filomena's or Laura's DNA finding its way onto that small bra clasp.
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 6:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

bolint wrote:
Quote:
" and the prosecution and defense attorneys were shouting at one another on Saturday.

"I think everybody's just ready for a break," Goertzen said.""



Well, it seems to me a normal course in an Italian trial. :D

Bolint, Considering that August is the month of the year during whicht he majority of Italian workers take 2-3 weeks off i.e.10-15 working days out of the yearly 25-30 or more that everybody is entitled to depending on type of contract and seniority in the company, I agree with you that the two months recess is not as weird as some people claim. I assume the last 10 days of June and the first two weeks of September the judges and lawyers will be busy with other stuff, Knox and Sollecito are not the only defendants undergoing trial in Perugia.

And now excuse me, but I have to go packing for my 5 week summer vacation, first to the Alps and later on to Greece... b-((

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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 6:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Nicki,I was commenting the shouting not the break. :D

Have a good vacation.
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Offline Professor Snape


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 6:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Michael - thanks to your buddy Steve Shay at the West Seattle Harold 7/17/09:

Things aren't going so well these days. I'd say this person sounds very similar to one we know all too well:
"There are certainly different interpretations in view of the way this case has gone..." I'm not going to dignify a jerk like you by quoting the whole text of your stupid lies. You have absolutely no idea what is going on here so why do you insist on demonstrating your ignorance and sickness to the world? The only malicious and disassociated "thing" around here is you. Shame on you.She was forced to create a scenario under the kind of threats and pressures you wouldn't have held up under for 30 seconds. She didn't run away. She stayed to help.You would have crawled up your own a@# to get away from what she went through. I suspect you would have betrayed your own Mother to get yourself out of the fix Amanda was in; your a perfect example of the kind of fascist groupie needed for a Nazi state to succeed.When the final history is written on the story of Amanda Knox and this horrific miscarriage of justice this heroic young woman has had to endure you and others like you will be a liner note, a reference to the chapter about the small, ugly little people like yourself who sought to do further the injury to her after untold damage was already done just so you could bring a person absolutely superior to you in every way imaginable down. You're one of the bad guys in this story moron.There's no other way.Amanda Knox has demonstrated more character and more courage through this crucible than a tiny, ugly little person like yourself will ever have; she is better than any of the goons who trash her; she's so decent and kind she would probably resent the animosity I feel towards you and if she had a voice in all of this that we could finally hear she'd probably tell me to shut-up.That's the kind of common decency she's known for; I will never have her kind of courage.
Cream rises - crap just floats. Amanda is rising to the top." You're just treading water. (comments)


Just hold your hands over your ears and la-la real loud sista:
“Over there she is misunderstood,” said Delaney of Amanda in Italy. “I don’t want to hear, ‘she’s a devil, a murderer, and everybody hates her.’ I want to hear the day she’s coming home and that she’s innocent. That’s all I want to hear.”

Could ya just give a girl a break and quit pickin' on er?
“This misinformation about the knife and DNA as evidence drives you nuts,” said Amanda’s grandmother, teary-eyed after reading the letter. "They put that out as an absolute. It’s so hard to get people to support this girl, just picking on her with any ugly thing they can find. She was the first recipient of the Allen Schauffler Award at Explorer West (Middle School) for high achievement and character. That’s the real Amanda.”

We don't all wear jeans to the opera in Seattle - only the Knox family when Macy's forks out employee tickets.

Wearing patriotic clothing to even a US court even on the 4th if they were open is simply self promoting. Ring a bell??
What would have shown tasteful class was to wear a small rinestone pin on her blazer jacket.

Oh, Edda. Someone should tell you that you do not have the arms of Michelle Obama. Not so pretty. eek-)
This is not a mud pie put down but a fact. Your husband and man friends ought to not look beyond their own living room when tossing mud pies and name calling other women "fat." I challenge you to summit Mt. Rainier three times within one month or get your ass on a bike on the Burke Gilman trail a few times a week as some of us DO!
If I am fat, well....

Wonder where the Mellas family will enjoy their Italian vacation during the summer break and who will sponsor it? Me, too!!

_________________
"Wizard of Healing Potions and Alibis"


Last edited by Professor Snape on Sat Jul 18, 2009 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 6:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

The Machine wrote:
jfk1191 wrote:
the jurors will get a needed rest, and they can go read up, on the internet, about this case.

i hate to say it, but the one time I was a juror on a manslaughter case, we all got really burnt out and just wanted to go home. I think and suspect a few just threw in to the majority to go home.


I'm expecting a unanimous verdict in October.


The jurors have not been sequestered during this trial so it isn't really comparable.

_________________
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Offline nicki

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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:27 am

Posts: 847

PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 7:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Jools wrote:
From Il Messaggero. Sorry no time to translate now. Can Tiziziano, Catnip or any one else please translate? Thanks!

SIAMO alle ultime battute prima del periodo feriale relative al processo in corte d’assise nei confronti di Raffaele Sollecito e Amanda Knox. Il processo sembra che abbia raggiunto una fase di stanca, dovuto probabilmente da un lato da un numero considerevole di udienze finora tenute e dell’altra dalla assoluta irrilevanza di buona parte dell’attività istruttoria prodottasi nel dibattimento.
Ci troviamo di fronte a un esito incerto, stante la natura prevalentemente indiziaria degli elementi a carico degli imputati. Ad onor del vero, qualche elemento con carattere probatorio a favore dell’accusa è emerso, soprattutto la presenza di Dna sul gancetto del reggiseno della povera Kercher e in quella sul coltello trovato in casa Sollecito. Questi due elementi di per sé possono costituire argomenti sufficienti su cui poggiare una eventuale sentenza di condanna. Di questo ne è ben consapevole la difesa di entrambi gli imputati, che ha dovuto puntare tutte le contro argomentazioni sulla eventuale contaminazione dei rilievi effettuati dalla polizia giudiziaria. Cioè non si discute se quel Dna appartiene al Sollecito relativamente al gancetto del reggiseno, ovvero se quello sul coltello appartiene alla Kercher e, o alla Knox, ma semplicemente se il suo ritrovamento sia il frutto di una errata procedura di prelievo effettuata dalla polizia giudiziaria. Le difese degli imputatati sostengono concretamente che nell’effettuare i rilievi, gli agenti non hanno proceduto alla sostituzione dei guanti per ogni singola operazione, determinando così un involontario trasferimento dei Dna sia sul gancetto del reggiseno che sul coltello. Avverso a queste tesi sono state le dichiarazioni degli agenti della scientifica che hanno materialmente operato, i quali, sotto giuramento e nella qualità di pubblici ufficiali, hanno ribadito la correttezza del loro operato secondo protocolli in uso, che prevedono appunto la sostituzione dei guanti.
Andando sulle questioni essenziali, contro gli imputati abbiamo sia il ritrovamento del Dna e la sostanziale confusione nella ricostruzione dei loro movimenti nella sera del’omicidio. Occorre dire che anche sull’ora in cui è avvenuto l’omicidio non vi è allo stato certezza assoluta. A favore degli imputati invece vi è la circostanza che nella stanza della Kercher, dove sarebbe avvenuto l’omicidio, a conclusione di un gioco erotico collettivo, non vi sono tracce né biologiche né di altra natura dei due imputati. La circostanza è obbiettivamente anomala. Se la ricostruzione effettuata dagli inquirenti è fondata resta obiettivamente inspiegabile di come in quella stanza non si è trovato né un capello né una goccia di sudore dei due fidanzatini. Ci troviamo di fronte ad un vero e proprio rompicapo, con la sensazione che quando si stia formando il convincimento in un senso, si deve ricominciare da capo perché il cerchio non si chiude aprendosi contrarie e diverse prospettive. In questo quadro, in linea teorica, gli imputati possono avvantaggiarsi del raggiungimento di due obiettivi alternativi: provare la propria innocenza o quantomeno raggiungere una situazione di dubbio che li porterebbe ad una assoluzione in ogni caso. Rimane però il dato oggettivamente forte dei rilievi del Dna effettuati dagli inquirenti che incombono come macigni su Raffaele e Amanda.
Docente Università
di Perugia
http://tinyurl.com/lavba6


Hola Jools, great job as usual hugz-)

Here's a fast translation:
We're at the last days of the trial before the summer holidays. The trial seems to have reached a phase of tiredness due to the number of hearings until now, as well as the total irrelevance of great part of the pre-investigation activity produced in the debate. We are facing an uncertain outcome, due to the nature of the evidence against the defendants, that is mostly circumstantial. Actually, some sound evidence has been shown in favor of prosecution, especially the bra clasp DNA and the knife DNA. These two elements alone can be enough for a guilty verdict, and the defense is well aware of it,since all their arguments had to be aimed at a possible sample contamination by police. Basically the DNA match (bra and Meredith's blade) has not been under discussion, rather if the match is due to an improper collection procedure. Defense claims that detectives have not changed gloves every single time, thus causing an involuntary transfer of the DNAs both on the knife and the bra clasp. This is refuted by scientific police agents in their position of public servants under oath, reaffirming the correctness of procedures employed according to standard protocols, including gloves replacement.

Looking at the essential evidence against the defendants then, we have the DNAs and their major confusion when referring their wherabouts on the night of the murder-it needs to be said that there is no absolute certainty of the time the murder occurred-. In favor of the defendants, is the absence of hair or sweat or other biologiocal traces that should have been present in the murder room where an erotic collective game had taken place, if prosecution reconstruction is correct. We are facing a true puzzle, feeling that as soon as we are close to form a belief, we must start all over, since new and opposite perspectives appear. Theoretically, in this situation the defendants could benefit from reaching two alternative goals: to either prove their innocence or reach the point of "reasonable doubt", thus obtaining an acquittal either way. However, the objectively strong DNA evidence is like a boulder hanging over Amanda and Raffaele.
Professor at the University of Perugia

_________________
"A pensare male si fa peccato, ma molto spesso ci si azzecca" mike


Last edited by nicki on Sat Jul 18, 2009 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline jfk1191


Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:46 am

Posts: 286

PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 7:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

The Machine wrote:
jfk1191 wrote:
the jurors will get a needed rest, and they can go read up, on the internet, about this case.

i hate to say it, but the one time I was a juror on a manslaughter case, we all got really burnt out and just wanted to go home. I think and suspect a few just threw in to the majority to go home.


I'm expecting a unanimous verdict in October.


I read the court doesn't make public, the jurors votes. So we'll never know if it was unanimous.

unless its leaked, which would be about normal for this case. sun-)
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2308

PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 7:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

jfk1191 wrote:
I read the court doesn't make public, the jurors votes. So we'll never know if it was unanimous.unless its leaked, which would be about normal for this case. sun-)


I'm surprised that Amanda Knox's family and lawyers have been giving so many people access to the prosecution's 10,000 page report.
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Offline jfk1191


Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:46 am

Posts: 286

PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 7:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

The Machine wrote:
jfk1191 wrote:
I read the court doesn't make public, the jurors votes. So we'll never know if it was unanimous.unless its leaked, which would be about normal for this case. sun-)


I'm surprised that Amanda Knox's family and lawyers have been giving so many people access to the prosecution's 10,000 page report.


they have?

has that been proven?

or are you just assuming it was the Knox's.

obviously someone is leaking it.

Does anyone know, is it a crime in Italy to leak things to the press during the case?
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2308

PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 8:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

jfk1191 wrote:

they have?

has that been proven?

or are you just assuming it was the Knox's.

obviously someone is leaking it.

Does anyone know, is it a crime in Italy to leak things to the press during the case?


I'm not assuming anything. Amanda Knox's family and lawyers have been giving various people who they believe can help their cause access to the prosecution's file.

Who do you think offered Candace Dempsey access to Amanda Knox's diary? Skep was also offered access as long as certain conditions were met.

Who do you think gave Frank Sfarzo important court documents like the DNA charts and the photograph of the woman's bloody shoeprint on the pillow?

Who gave Stewart Home access to the prosecution's file? I can assure you it wasn't the prosecutors.
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Offline beans


Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:00 am

Posts: 220

PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 8:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Snape said:

Quote:
We don't all wear jeans to the opera in Seattle - only the Knox family when Macy's forks out employee tickets.

Wearing patriotic clothing to even a US court even on the 4th if they were open is simply self promoting. Ring a bell??
What would have shown tasteful class was to wear a small rinestone pin on her blazer jacket.


No Snape, we don't all wear jeans to the opera (I don't)--but some do and more than just the Knox family. I was just trying to indicate that Seattlites are pretty casual dressers. Most, however, seem to understand when more formal clothing is in order. The Knoxes aren't among them apparently. They are showing up for court dressed more casually than most American visitors out sightseeing.

What would have shown tasteful class is to have worn a blazer etc. rather than shorts and a low-cut casual top. Because of George Bush's idiotic expectation that wearing a flag lapel pin on every occasion demonstrated what a great patriot he was, I think a small, patriotic rhinestone pin might have been even more of an in-your-face than the red, white and blue clothing... But I concede, that the red, white and blue combination, even if conservative could be misconstrued, especially in the face of the comments by Deanna and others of the family that AK is being persecuted because she is an American. They should have saved the red, white and blue for after court.

I just wanted to add, you can beat the heat with linen or linen-blend clothing--blazers, sleeveless shells and slacks are all available.
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Offline Michael

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Posts: 16732

Location: England

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 8:58 pm   Post subject: ABC - Defence Don't Have All Tests   

DNA Evidence Challenged in Amanda Knox Trial
Defense Says Sloppy Procedures Affected Evidence

By MALAIKA BOVA

July 18, 2009



"Defense lawyers also complained that the police did not make results of some biological tests available to them.

The complaint was made by laywyers for Knox's ex-boyfriend and co-defendant Raffaele Sollecito.

"We have been working with our hands tied behind our backs without access to essential evidence that would have allowed us to do pre-emptive analysis and might have led us to different conclusions. I don't even know if Raffaele would be in prison," Sollecito's lawyer Giulia Bongiorno said."


ABC

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline disinterested


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Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:34 pm

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Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 9:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

New Barbie?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-07-18/the-knox-trial-cliffhanger/?cid=hp:mainpromo3
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Offline Hungarian


Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:40 am

Posts: 155

PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 10:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   




I think so -- this part from Nadeau's article:

"Saturday’s hearing ended with a dramatic exchange about whether the prosecution had been given key documents regarding the DNA on Kercher’s bra. The charge was seen as a blatant attempt by the prosecution to throw the defense’s witness, and it worked. The exchange ended with Sollecito’s lawyers accusing the prosecution with illegality – a move many thought was primarily to set the stage for an appeal if one or both are convicted."

is absoluetely new information for me, although I don't understand it hundred percent -- so this was the reason of the shouting between prosecution and defence --
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Offline Jools


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 10:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

nicki wrote:
Jools wrote:
From Il Messaggero. Sorry no time to translate now. Can Tiziziano, Catnip or any one else please translate? Thanks!

SIAMO alle ultime battute prima del periodo feriale relative al processo in corte d’assise nei confronti di Raffaele Sollecito e Amanda Knox. Il processo sembra che abbia raggiunto una fase di stanca, dovuto probabilmente da un lato da un numero considerevole di udienze finora tenute e dell’altra dalla assoluta irrilevanza di buona parte dell’attività istruttoria prodottasi nel dibattimento.
Ci troviamo di fronte a un esito incerto, stante la natura prevalentemente indiziaria degli elementi a carico degli imputati. Ad onor del vero, qualche elemento con carattere probatorio a favore dell’accusa è emerso, soprattutto la presenza di Dna sul gancetto del reggiseno della povera Kercher e in quella sul coltello trovato in casa Sollecito. Questi due elementi di per sé possono costituire argomenti sufficienti su cui poggiare una eventuale sentenza di condanna. Di questo ne è ben consapevole la difesa di entrambi gli imputati, che ha dovuto puntare tutte le contro argomentazioni sulla eventuale contaminazione dei rilievi effettuati dalla polizia giudiziaria. Cioè non si discute se quel Dna appartiene al Sollecito relativamente al gancetto del reggiseno, ovvero se quello sul coltello appartiene alla Kercher e, o alla Knox, ma semplicemente se il suo ritrovamento sia il frutto di una errata procedura di prelievo effettuata dalla polizia giudiziaria. Le difese degli imputatati sostengono concretamente che nell’effettuare i rilievi, gli agenti non hanno proceduto alla sostituzione dei guanti per ogni singola operazione, determinando così un involontario trasferimento dei Dna sia sul gancetto del reggiseno che sul coltello. Avverso a queste tesi sono state le dichiarazioni degli agenti della scientifica che hanno materialmente operato, i quali, sotto giuramento e nella qualità di pubblici ufficiali, hanno ribadito la correttezza del loro operato secondo protocolli in uso, che prevedono appunto la sostituzione dei guanti.
Andando sulle questioni essenziali, contro gli imputati abbiamo sia il ritrovamento del Dna e la sostanziale confusione nella ricostruzione dei loro movimenti nella sera del’omicidio. Occorre dire che anche sull’ora in cui è avvenuto l’omicidio non vi è allo stato certezza assoluta. A favore degli imputati invece vi è la circostanza che nella stanza della Kercher, dove sarebbe avvenuto l’omicidio, a conclusione di un gioco erotico collettivo, non vi sono tracce né biologiche né di altra natura dei due imputati. La circostanza è obbiettivamente anomala. Se la ricostruzione effettuata dagli inquirenti è fondata resta obiettivamente inspiegabile di come in quella stanza non si è trovato né un capello né una goccia di sudore dei due fidanzatini. Ci troviamo di fronte ad un vero e proprio rompicapo, con la sensazione che quando si stia formando il convincimento in un senso, si deve ricominciare da capo perché il cerchio non si chiude aprendosi contrarie e diverse prospettive. In questo quadro, in linea teorica, gli imputati possono avvantaggiarsi del raggiungimento di due obiettivi alternativi: provare la propria innocenza o quantomeno raggiungere una situazione di dubbio che li porterebbe ad una assoluzione in ogni caso. Rimane però il dato oggettivamente forte dei rilievi del Dna effettuati dagli inquirenti che incombono come macigni su Raffaele e Amanda.
Docente Università
di Perugia
http://tinyurl.com/lavba6


Hola Jools, great job as usual hugz-)

Here's a fast translation:
We're at the last days of the trial before the summer holidays. The trial seems to have reached a phase of tiredness due to the number of hearings until now, as well as the total irrelevance of great part of the pre-investigation activity produced in the debate. We are facing an uncertain outcome, due to the nature of the evidence against the defendants, that is mostly circumstantial. Actually, some sound evidence has been shown in favor of prosecution, especially the bra clasp DNA and the knife DNA. These two elements alone can be enough for a guilty verdict, and the defense is well aware of it,since all their arguments had to be aimed at a possible sample contamination by police. Basically the DNA match (bra and Meredith's blade) has not been under discussion, rather if the match is due to an improper collection procedure. Defense claims that detectives have not changed gloves every single time, thus causing an involuntary transfer of the DNAs both on the knife and the bra clasp. This is refuted by scientific police agents in their position of public servants under oath, reaffirming the correctness of procedures employed according to standard protocols, including gloves replacement.

Looking at the essential evidence against the defendants then, we have the DNAs and their major confusion when referring their wherabouts on the night of the murder-it needs to be said that there is no absolute certainty of the time the murder occurred-. In favor of the defendants, is the absence of hair or sweat or other biologiocal traces that should have been present in the murder room where an erotic collective game had taken place, if prosecution reconstruction is correct. We are facing a true puzzle, feeling that as soon as we are close to form a belief, we must start all over, since new and opposite perspectives appear. Theoretically, in this situation the defendants could benefit from reaching two alternative goals: to either prove their innocence or reach the point of "reasonable doubt", thus obtaining an acquittal either way. However, the objectively strong DNA evidence is like a boulder hanging over Amanda and Raffaele.
Professor at the University of Perugia


Gracias guapisima. hugz-)
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Offline Michael

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Posts: 16732

Location: England

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 12:44 am   Post subject: Confused   

I have to say I'm a lttle confused. We have conflicting reports.

Malaika Bova reports for ABC that the defence were complaining today because the prosecurion had witheld test results.

Barbie Nadeau reports that it is the other way around and it is the prosecution complaining because the defence witheld test results from them.

Which is correct?

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline bucketoftea


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Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:09 pm

Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 1:58 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

OK, let's say the bra clasp was "kicked around" the crime scene for weeks. Amanda and Raff had only known each other ?6 days. I suppose they spent most of their time together at his place, don't you? So just how much of his DNA could there be there? And how so if contaminated from the crime scene floor? From his bare footprints? lol.

Beans said:
"" I just wanted to add, you can beat the heat with linen or linen-blend clothing--blazers, sleeveless shells and slacks are all available ." Would you like to join my consultancy, Stylists to the Damned?
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Offline bucketoftea


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Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:09 pm

Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:04 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Malaika Bova reports for ABC that the defence were complaining today because the prosecurion had witheld test results.

Barbie Nadeau reports that it is the other way around and it is the prosecution complaining because the defence witheld test results from them.

Which is correct?

* * * *
Details,details lol. Does this have something to do with the defense DNA-guy who quit?
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Offline Michael

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Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:10 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

bucketoftea wrote:
Malaika Bova reports for ABC that the defence were complaining today because the prosecurion had witheld test results.

Barbie Nadeau reports that it is the other way around and it is the prosecution complaining because the defence witheld test results from them.

Which is correct?

* * * *
Details,details lol. Does this have something to do with the defense DNA-guy who quit?



It could be. It was in regard to the test results on the bra clasp and he was involved in that.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline disinterested


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Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:34 pm

Posts: 236

Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:32 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

I like this:

"Some character witnesses for Knox have left town..."

(Quickly, in the dead of night.)
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Offline martin


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:28 pm

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:33 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

The Machine wrote:
jfk1191 wrote:

they have?

has that been proven?

or are you just assuming it was the Knox's.

obviously someone is leaking it.

Does anyone know, is it a crime in Italy to leak things to the press during the case?


I'm not assuming anything. Amanda Knox's family and lawyers have been giving various people who they believe can help their cause access to the prosecution's file.

Who do you think offered Candace Dempsey access to Amanda Knox's diary? Skep was also offered access as long as certain conditions were met.

Who do you think gave Frank Sfarzo important court documents like the DNA charts and the photograph of the woman's bloody shoeprint on the pillow?

Who gave Stewart Home access to the prosecution's file? I can assure you it wasn't the prosecutors.

Hi Machine,
what happened to Stewart? Why isn't he posting any more?
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Offline Catnip


User avatar


Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:08 am

Posts: 2997

Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:45 am   Post subject: The Heat, The Heat   

84-year-old Battista Zanellato, who had been becoming more and more obsessed with being attacked in his own home, what with news of an old person being killed here, and another old person being killed there, thought he was surrounded by mafia-types and malcontents, and barricaded himself inside and wouldn’t open the door. His son called the Carabinieri and after some persuasion the old man opened the door. When he saw Lieutenant-Colonel Valerio Gildoni, 42, standing there, he fired at him fatally with an old rifle that he’d had for half a century.

His advanced age and the heat of these last few days [ L'età avanzata e il caldo di questi giorni] might have been contributing factors affecting his state of mind.

TGCOM 17 Jul 2009
AGI 17 July 2009
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2308

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:21 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

martin wrote:
Hi Machine,
what happened to Stewart? Why isn't he posting any more?


Hi Martin,

I don't know why he isn't posting anymore. He said he was going to be busy for two weeks a couple of months ago.

I do know he was sold a bill of goods by the defence lawyers. Perhaps, he feels embarrassed about it now. What did he expect the defence lawyers to say? Knox and Sollecito are guilty?

A lot of people have been taken in. Surely, common sense tells you that innocent people don't lie repeatedly and give multiple alibis.

How can anyone believe that both the double DNA knife AND Meredith's bra clasp were contaminated?

How can anyone believe it's just a coincidence that Amanda Knox's DNA was mixed with Meredith's blood in five locations in the cottage?

How can anyone believe that it's just a coincidence that that Knox and Sollecito turned off their mobile phones shortly before Meredith was murdered when neither Knox nor Sollecito were in the habit of turning off their mobile phones at this time?

How can anyone believe that Knox and Sollecito both conveniently couldn't remember most of what happened on the night of the murder because they were suffering from cannabis induced amnesia?

How can anyone believe that it's a coincidence that Amanda Knox's lamp was found in Meredith's room?

How can anyone believe that it's a coincidence that Sollecito's kitchen pipes broke on the night of the murder?
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Offline jfk1191


Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:46 am

Posts: 286

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:01 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

The Machine wrote:
jfk1191 wrote:

they have?

has that been proven?

or are you just assuming it was the Knox's.

obviously someone is leaking it.

Does anyone know, is it a crime in Italy to leak things to the press during the case?


I'm not assuming anything. Amanda Knox's family and lawyers have been giving various people who they believe can help their cause access to the prosecution's file.

Who do you think offered Candace Dempsey access to Amanda Knox's diary? Skep was also offered access as long as certain conditions were met.

Who do you think gave Frank Sfarzo important court documents like the DNA charts and the photograph of the woman's bloody shoeprint on the pillow?

Who gave Stewart Home access to the prosecution's file? I can assure you it wasn't the prosecutors.


Does anyone know if it's against the law to leak all this info., in a case like this?
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Offline beans


Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:00 am

Posts: 220

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:11 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Quote:
." Would you like to join my consultancy, Stylists to the Damned?


So, bucketoftea, what is that supposed to mean? I'm not trying to excuse them at all--I'm just saying that there are clothes you can wear in warm temperatures and not look like you are on your way to the beach.

On another topic, from the AP's story on Tagliabracci's testimony:
Quote:
Tagliabracci told the court that DNA compatible with Sollecito's found on the clasp of the victim's bra may have been the result of later contamination. He said "DNA has no wings, but can fly" and may have been transported onto the bra with dust.
yr-)
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Offline indie


User avatar


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:15 am

Posts: 383

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:00 am   Post subject: A Little Love for Kermit!   

OT but I just couldn't pass this up:

Looks like Lady GaGa loves Kermit too.

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Offline Catnip


User avatar


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Posts: 2997

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:04 am   Post subject: PERUGIA NEWS DIGEST 18 JULY 2009   

PERUGIA NEWS DIGEST 18 JULY 2009

Evidence
– At the request of Sollecito’s defence, the bra Meredith was wearing when she was killed was brought into court in its sealed bag. (1, 4, 6), and also the bra-clasp (4), so that they could be examined during the course of the testimony (1, 6)
– With the prosecution’s consent (3), the complete set of Patrizia Stefanoni’s laboratory notes have been placed at the disposition of all parties (2, 3, 7)


Adriano Tagliabracci, for Sollecito
– spoke about the bra clasp (with Sollecito’s DNA) and the seized knife (with Knox’s and the victim’s DNA) (1)

The Bra Clasp

– a “mis-interpretation of peaks” means the DNA on the piece of evidence is incompatible with Sollecito’s DNA (3)

– he spoke of “inevitable contamination”, because, amongst other things, the piece of evidence was found “on a very dusty floor under an equally dirty mat”' (3, 5)

– the examination of the bra-clasp followed incorrect protocols (4): in the collection of the evidence, in its analysis, and in interpretation (4): the evidence can be given no weight: ‘it cannot be considered as bona fide evidence” (4) “given the inappropriate and anomalous collection methodology” (3, 4)

– In his opinion, the forensics work was not in line with international standards, beginning with the long length of time, 47 days, from the time of the bra-clasp’s discovery on the 2 November under a pillow on top of which lay the victim, until its collection on the 18 December, over a month later, and this time it was underneath a mat (4)

– “Meredith Kercher’s bra clasp was collected 47 days after its initial discovery, and around a metre from its initial location. In this expanse of time there were an unspecified number of searches by an unspecified number of persons who used unspecified means of precaution” (3, 5, indirect speech in 4), thereby creating a situation that increased the possibility of contamination. (4)
  • [Note: source 4 explicitly mentions that there were 3 crime scene searches, so that, by comparison, the witness’s quoted “unspecified number of searches” is more persuasive rhetoric than anything else.]

– Given that Sollecito’s DNA was recovered from shed epithelial cells, there is a distinct possibility, in his opinion, that they were, contrary to Stefanoni’s testimony, deposited on the clasp during one of the crime scene searches themselves (4)


Lawyers’ takes
Giulia Bongiorno
– “Attributing DNA to somebody requires doing tests, and today it comes out that not all the elements at the foundation of the prosecution’s case had been made available to the defence” (3)


Francesco Maresca (for the Kerchers)
– After the hearing concluded, he said that there has been “no withholding of data because in their reports Forensics have always indicated levels of DNA sufficient for testing” (3)

Schedule
– Hearings have now been suspended for the summer break (2)
– Hearings will resume on 14 September (2, 3), with further defence witnesses expected (2)



Notes
1 – “Victim’s bra in court” Messaggero 18 July 2009
2 – “Court allows biological documents” ANSA 18 July 2009
3 – “Expert: Bra-clasp - contamination inevitable” ADN Kronos 18 July 2009
4 – “Sollecito defence expert: Bra was contaminated” ASCA 18 July 2009
5 – “Sollecito expert: inevitable bra-clasp contamination” Secolo XIX 18 July 2009
6 – “Meredith’s bra in court” Sicilia 18 July 2009
7 – “Documents deposited” Unione Sarda 18 July 2009

Original articles are archived [ here ].


Edited to add: Source 7.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:34 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Curious:
"La difesa Knox ieri ha ottenuto, visto che la polizia ha dichiarato irreperibili due testi (Ardak Kussainova e Juba Louerguioui) di avere comunque un indirizzo di questi due stranieri."
(Corriere dell'Umbria)

The police declared these two foreign witnesses untraceable but the Knox defense managed to get their addresses.

I don't know what is behind this, but I have the feeling that this Juve (i.e. Juba) is somehow more important than is thought.
He had been in the cottage at least five times the last time was Oct 31 (per Amanda), Meredith found him very strange (per Sophie Purton), it is very likely him that Amanda is talking about in that mysterious Nov 4 bugged conversation at the police station and Raffaele does not seem to know him at all, and also Alessandra Formica spoke about a man who had a more North African look rather than black.
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Offline Hungarian


Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:40 am

Posts: 155

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:59 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

bolint wrote:
Curious:
"La difesa Knox ieri ha ottenuto, visto che la polizia ha dichiarato irreperibili due testi (Ardak Kussainova e Juba Louerguioui) di avere comunque un indirizzo di questi due stranieri."
(Corriere dell'Umbria)

The police declared these two foreign witnesses untraceable but the Knox defense managed to get their addresses.

I don't know what is behind this, but I have the feeling that this Juve (i.e. Juba) is somehow more important than is thought.
He had been in the cottage at least five times the last time was Oct 31 (per Amanda), Meredith found him very strange (per Sophie Purton), it is very likely him that Amanda is talking about in that mysterious Nov 4 bugged conversation at the police station and Raffaele does not seem to know him at all, and also Alessandra Formica spoke about a man who had a more North African look rather than black.



Is this the guy?

http://www.facebook.com/people/Louergui ... /706074464
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Offline Hungarian


Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:40 am

Posts: 155

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 6:05 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Hungarian wrote:
bolint wrote:
Curious:
"La difesa Knox ieri ha ottenuto, visto che la polizia ha dichiarato irreperibili due testi (Ardak Kussainova e Juba Louerguioui) di avere comunque un indirizzo di questi due stranieri."
(Corriere dell'Umbria)

The police declared these two foreign witnesses untraceable but the Knox defense managed to get their addresses.

I don't know what is behind this, but I have the feeling that this Juve (i.e. Juba) is somehow more important than is thought.
He had been in the cottage at least five times the last time was Oct 31 (per Amanda), Meredith found him very strange (per Sophie Purton), it is very likely him that Amanda is talking about in that mysterious Nov 4 bugged conversation at the police station and Raffaele does not seem to know him at all, and also Alessandra Formica spoke about a man who had a more North African look rather than black.



Is this the guy?

http://www.facebook.com/people/Louergui ... /706074464




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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 6:29 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

"Is this the guy?"

Yes, I think.
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Offline Tiziano


Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:06 am

Posts: 714

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 6:42 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

[quote="bolint"]
http://www.telenorba.it/home/news_det.php?nid=11087
Translation of report.
MEREDITH: DISPOSTO DEPOSITO DOCUMENTI ESAMI BIOLOGICI

HA DISPOSTO CHE TUTTA LA DOCUMENTAZIONE DI LABORATORIO RELATIVA AGLI ESAMI COMPIUTI DALLA BIOLOGA DELLA POLIZIA SCIENTIFICA PATRIZIA STEFANONI VENGA MESSA A DISPOSIZIONE DELLE PARTI LA CORTE D'ASSISE DI PERUGIA DAVANTI ALLA QUALE SI SVOLGE IL PROCESSO PER L'OMICIDIO DI MEREDITH KERCHER.
LA DECISIONE E' STATA PRESA SU RICHIESTA DELLA DIFESA DI RAFFAELE SOLLECITO ALLA QUALE SI SONO ASSOCIATI I LEGALI DI AMANDA KNOX, CON IL CONSENSO PM.
I DIFENSORI DEL GIOVANE PUGLIESE, GLI AVVOCATI GIULIA BONGIORNO E LUCA MAORI, HANNO SOLLEVATO LA QUESTIONE DURANTE LA DEPOSIZIONE DEL MEDICO LEGALE ADRIANO TAGLIABRACCI, LORO CONSULENTE, CHE HA CONTESTATO L'ATTRIBUZIONE A SOLLECITO DEL DNA TROVATO SUL GANCETTO DEL REGGISENO DELLA VITTIMA RECUPERATO VICINO AL CORPO.
LA CORTE HA QUINDI SOSPESO IL PROCESSO RINVIANDOLO AL 14 SETTEMBRE PROSSIMO.
FISSATE ANCHE LE DATE DEL 15, 18, 19, 25 E 26 SETTEMBRE NONCHE' DEL 2 E 3 OTTOBRE.
ENTRO ALLORA LA CORTE - HA DETTO IL PRESIDENTE GIANCARLO MASSEI - ''SPERA DI ESAURIRE L'ATTIVITA' ISTRUTTORIA''.
18-LUG-09
18/07/09 16:59:16 redtno@telenorba.it" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false


MEREDITH: Ruling re file relating to biological tests

The Court of the Assizes of Perugia, before which the trial for the murder of Meredith Kercher is taking place, has ruled that all the laboratory documentation relating to the tests carried out by the biologist for the Forensic Police, Patrizia Stefanoni, be made available to the parties.
The decision was taken at the request of the defence for Raffaele Sollecito, joined by the lawyers for Amanda Knox, with the agreement of the Public Minister.
The defence for the young man from Puglia, the lawyers Giulia Bongiorno and Luca Mori, raised the question during the testimony of forensic scientist Adriano Tagliabracci, their consultant, who contested the attribution to Sollecito of DNA found on the bra clip of the victim, which was recovered near the body.
The court then suspended proceedings until September 14th.
Hearing dates were also set for September 15th, 18th, 19th, 25th & 26th, as well as for October 2nd & 3rd.
The president Giancarlo Massei said that by then the court "hopes to complete the investigative process".
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Offline malcolm


Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:26 am

Posts: 239

Location: Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 6:50 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

bolint wrote:
"Is this the guy?"

Yes, I think.

What about the Argentinian guy that Raff, in his prison diary, said was washing sneakers with Amanda at the laundromat? Who was that?

As for the DNA on the bra/clasp, has anyone for the defense actually testified yet about 6 different people's DNA being found on it?
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Offline malcolm


Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:26 am

Posts: 239

Location: Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 6:59 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Nicki, Catnip, Brian,

I went through all the parts of the Micheli report that had been translated on the "Data Examinations" forum, but I only found a few pages worth of translations, mainly concentrated in the 70s and 80s, with the beginning and end of the document having been translated as well. Aside from the sections that Tiziano translated for Brian recently, were there any other sections translated? I'd like to help organize this project.

Also, I copy and pasted the copy from the Penale website into a word document, but the page numbers seem to differ slightly from those of, e.g., Catnip. I'm thinking of posting the whole thing in the Data Examinations section, with page numbers added and the sections that have translated already highlighted in a different color.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 7:02 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

"What about the Argentinian guy that Raff, in his prison diary, said was washing sneakers with Amanda at the laundromat? Who was that?"

I think it is confusion.
This Juve was mostly described in the early reports as Argentinian instead of Algerian (even in Corriere quoting Amanda Nov 3 questioning she says Juve is Argentinian , so maybe she was the source of this confusion).
On the other hand there was a report of seeing Amanda and a North-African looking guy in a laundry but it could not be Amanda because at that time she was at the cottage right after the discovery of the murder.
In the news the "laundry man" and the "Argentinian man visiting the cottage" stories got mixed up and that's what Raffaele heard from the TV.
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Offline Hungarian


Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:40 am

Posts: 155

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 8:01 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

bolint wrote:
"What about the Argentinian guy that Raff, in his prison diary, said was washing sneakers with Amanda at the laundromat? Who was that?"

I think it is confusion.
This Juve was mostly described in the early reports....



His name is Juba, not Juve -- not to cause more confusion.
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Offline Mutley


User avatar


Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:38 pm

Posts: 71

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 9:11 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

disinterested wrote:
I like this:

"Some character witnesses for Knox have left town..."

(Quickly, in the dead of night.)



BULLSHIT P.I. (Episode 9)

Wellcome back to dis show. I'm Pauli Ciolinso and I'm a top P.I. As you remember from episode eight, friends I'd known in my days at the department called me in on this because they couldn't handle such a complex case. I get lots of requests and I have to be choosy (50 grand and up only) but as they gave me the details I was more and more intrigued. There was a open and shut railroad job in Italy that was getting sticky. The defence was sounding confident for months and couldn't wait for the bell to get at dem prosecutors. Suddenly, just as they opened their side, 23 of the 36 defence witnesses disappeared. The railroad job was turning into the St Valentine's Day Massacre. Nobody could believe that dese upstanding people had gone into hiding for no reason. It looked like a branch of the mob known as the Amanda Haters were trying to swing the case by bumping off dose witnesses. My job was to save the remaining nine, sorry fourteen, hold on, THIRTEEN and get some proof over the fate of dose missing ones. It looked dangerous and challenging but I would be helping a lot of good folks so I was on dat plane as soon as we finished counting da cash.

My first contact was an unassuming dude called DJ. I guess Dude was his first name but he was too scared to give me his last name. He confirmed my worst suspicions. He'd been targeted too. They ambushed him at traffic lights and put six bullets from a magnum through his head, straight between his eyes. Fortunately they all missed his brain and the assassins made their first mistake in leaving him for dead. I got a lot of confidential stuff from dis dude Dude. It sounded like there was a lot a dudes around shooting off their mouths and their guns. I had to be cautious. I went back to the hotel to review the evidence and before long I got a call from some dude who warned me off. I got to work fast, this dude sure didn't know Pauli Ciolinso. I demanded another 50 grand to carry on. Dis was definitely a 100 grand case and I reckoned it could go higher.

Next day I interviewed a port manager who claimed to have seen the missing 23. He claimed that they had bought group tickets for a round the world cruise and left in a hurry. So this was a case of blackmail. So what terrible damage to their reputations did these 23 fear if they appeared at the trial that would make them become incomunicado as we say in Italy for months?. What did the Amanda Haters have on them? I jotted down his evidence

The ships had left the sinking rat.

That's one for the notebook. As I pensively put my notebook away I came to a decision. I got out my phone and called for another 50 grand. This was a global case with global exposure. Tune in for episode 10 to hear how I handled the international mob and sorted out dis case. And remember, don't try any of dis at home. Not just anybody can become a PI like me. It took me over two weeks to get my qualifications
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Offline thoughtful


User avatar


Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:48 pm

Posts: 1225

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 9:35 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Quote:
His name is Juba, not Juve -- not to cause more confusion.


Except that it seems he might have been going by Juve in Italy; at any rate that is what he is called on the tapes. It makes sense since the italians love that name, it's the nickname of favorite soccer team Juventus. He was clearly a foreigner but most people weren't clear on where he came from, Amanda thought Albania, others have mentioned South America, but I believe in the end he is from the Maghreb. At any rate, it seems very unlikely that Juve-Juba can contribute much to the defense.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 10:32 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

"At any rate, it seems very unlikely that Juve-Juba can contribute much to the defense."

I still find the conversation below interesting (if not for the defense. :D).

Why is the most important problem for Amanda the unknown friends of Juve (because i think it is about him) while she is being questioned at the police station?
What are they talking about?

Quote:
"While at the police station on Nov4, RS popped out to get a pizza. The lovebirds were put in a room and their conversation was 'secretly' recorded.

4'40;

RS; What are you thinking about?

AK; That I don't want to be here. I want everything to be over because I want to know who is (sic d) his friends, because he doesn't have many friends.
Now, it's like this, it's interesting. In fact, nobody is his friend now. because before when (his? ndr) house was here he doesn't have..., he didn't go out, he didn't speak to many people..., he was always focusing on his girlfriend. That's what he told me.

RS. (in bad English) You...because I've got many friends, if I tell everyone to look after you...or...this is the difference, I have good friends, not his friends.6'30;

AK; (In Italian) I know, but he's a bit crazy when he's...(she hesitates, stumbles in Italian and continues in English) When he thinks about breaking off a relationship with a woman (incomprehensible)...strange to me. He says he trusts his girlfriend but he doesn't like it when he sees her talk to a man he doesn't know. Even if they've just split up...(incomprehensible). He looks at her and gets crazy. And...but then he (not clear, seems like 'He forced me')all the time. He's terrible. He says he doesn't mind seeing his girlfriend, even if he's talking to a man he doesn't know, but then he gets arrogant with me.

RS; (in English) This is ridiculous.

7'20;

AK; (In English) I don't like him anymore frankly. I mean; it was nice of him to find me a job and I liked it when he played the guitar with...when I went home (the missing word isn't clearly audible because of backgound voices and sounds. It could be 'with me', 'with Meredith' or something else)

RS; Hang on, are we talking about...(he hesitates) your friend from Le Chic or ...

AK; (She interrupts him) Friend from Le Chic?

RS; I'm not talking about the one that...

AK; Who?

RS; I'm mean the one that...

AK; Spiros?

RS; No. Shaky, Shaky, eh, eh (sniggering)

AK; I don't like him. He's not...I detest that man (sniggering). He tried it on with me.

RS; (after an interruption) Yes, OK, and...if he says something (?) ...with friends (?) Do you think he's...because I'm just..."
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Offline Michael

Site Admin


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Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:26 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

JK wrote:
Does anyone know if it's against the law to leak all this info., in a case like this?


Not at the trial stage. Once it reaches trial the legal teams for either the prosecution, defence or the victims can release whatever data to the press or public they want.

The only exceptions to would be any specific aspects a judge has ordered cannot be released, if there are any.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline Michael

Site Admin


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Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:34 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

malcolm wrote:
Nicki, Catnip, Brian,

I went through all the parts of the Micheli report that had been translated on the "Data Examinations" forum, but I only found a few pages worth of translations, mainly concentrated in the 70s and 80s, with the beginning and end of the document having been translated as well. Aside from the sections that Tiziano translated for Brian recently, were there any other sections translated? I'd like to help organize this project.

Also, I copy and pasted the copy from the Penale website into a word document, but the page numbers seem to differ slightly from those of, e.g., Catnip. I'm thinking of posting the whole thing in the Data Examinations section, with page numbers added and the sections that have translated already highlighted in a different color.


I'd be fine with that, on the proviso that any translated sections are passed on to Skep to peruse before being published publicly. There are some very brutal elements of what happened to Meredith in that report that we didn't want to publish and Skep has very clear ideas of what those elements are. Therefore, Skep needs to be able to check it over first.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline martin


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:28 pm

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:47 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

The Machine wrote:
martin wrote:
Hi Machine,
what happened to Stewart? Why isn't he posting any more?


Hi Martin,

I don't know why he isn't posting anymore. He said he was going to be busy for two weeks a couple of months ago.

I do know he was sold a bill of goods by the defence lawyers. Perhaps, he feels embarrassed about it now. What did he expect the defence lawyers to say? Knox and Sollecito are guilty?

A lot of people have been taken in. Surely, common sense tells you that innocent people don't lie repeatedly and give multiple alibis.

How can anyone believe that both the double DNA knife AND Meredith's bra clasp were contaminated?

How can anyone believe it's just a coincidence that Amanda Knox's DNA was mixed with Meredith's blood in five locations in the cottage?

How can anyone believe that it's just a coincidence that that Knox and Sollecito turned off their mobile phones shortly before Meredith was murdered when neither Knox nor Sollecito were in the habit of turning off their mobile phones at this time?

How can anyone believe that Knox and Sollecito both conveniently couldn't remember most of what happened on the night of the murder because they were suffering from cannabis induced amnesia?

How can anyone believe that it's a coincidence that Amanda Knox's lamp was found in Meredith's room?

How can anyone believe that it's a coincidence that Sollecito's kitchen pipes broke on the night of the murder?

I agree with you, too many coincidencies, this doesn't happen
in the real world. I have another question : I didn't follow on purpose the coroner's and forensic's testimonies about how meredith had died (really didn't want to hear that, sorry).
I was talking with my girlfried about the case, she told me
that the killers stabbed her more then 35 times and then
locked her in the room to die alone. Is that true? If it really happend like that, how can anybody believe that she was killed "by mistake"?
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Offline thoughtful


User avatar


Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:48 pm

Posts: 1225

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 12:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

That is a strange conversation. I think that it has to be understood as Raffaele and Amanda going over Amanda's male friends who had visited the house, which they were probably doing because they had been lengthily questioned on this subject. Juve was actually Laura's friend but he got the job at Patrick's for Amanda and sometimes came over to the house to play guitar. Spiros was a boy she met who worked at the internet cafe where she would go to write to DJ. Shaky was a strange boy she had met who (she claims) had worried or scared her. Shaky was just a nickname, his real name was apparently Hicham. I saw him on one of the witness lists, but I haven't noticed that he actually testified. Maybe he's one of the 23 desaparecidos? It seems to me that all this mention of these young men not having friends and being strange and having frightening attitudes towards women etc. would make sense in this context.

Quote:
RS; What are you thinking about?

AK; That I don't want to be here. I want everything to be over because I want to know who is (sic d) his friends, because he doesn't have many friends. Now, it's like this, it's interesting. In fact, nobody is his friend now. because before when (his? ndr) house was here he doesn't have..., he didn't go out, he didn't speak to many people..., he was always focusing on his girlfriend. That's what he told me.

RS. (in bad English) You...because I've got many friends, if I tell everyone to look after you...or...this is the difference, I have good friends, not his friends.6'30;

AK; (In Italian) I know, but he's a bit crazy when he's...(she hesitates, stumbles in Italian and continues in English) When he thinks about breaking off a relationship with a woman (incomprehensible)...strange to me. He says he trusts his girlfriend but he doesn't like it when he sees her talk to a man he doesn't know. Even if they've just split up...(incomprehensible). He looks at her and gets crazy. And...but then he (not clear, seems like 'He forced me')all the time. He's terrible. He says he doesn't mind seeing his girlfriend, even if he's talking to a man he doesn't know, but then he gets arrogant with me.

RS; (in English) This is ridiculous.

7'20;

AK; (In English) I don't like him anymore frankly. I mean; it was nice of him to find me a job and I liked it when he played the guitar with...when I went home (the missing word isn't clearly audible because of backgound voices and sounds. It could be 'with me', 'with Meredith' or something else)

RS; Hang on, are we talking about...(he hesitates) your friend from Le Chic or ...

AK; (She interrupts him) Friend from Le Chic?

RS; I'm not talking about the one that...

AK; Who?

RS; I'm mean the one that...

AK; Spiros?

RS; No. Shaky, Shaky, eh, eh (sniggering)

AK; I don't like him. He's not...I detest that man (sniggering). He tried it on with me.

RS; (after an interruption) Yes, OK, and...if he says something (?) ...with friends (?) Do you think he's...because I'm just..."
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2308

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 12:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

martin wrote:
I was talking with my girlfried about the case, she told me
that the killers stabbed her more then 35 times and then
locked her in the room to die alone. Is that true? If it really happend like that, how can anybody believe that she was killed "by mistake"?


Hi Martin,

There were 47 separate wounds on Meredith's body. There were three knife wounds on Meredith's neck and some on her right hand. The knife wounds on Meredith's right hand indicate that she wasn't restrained at first and was fending off blows with the knife or knives.

Several medical experts, Dr. Luca Lalli, Dr. Vicenza Liviero and Professor Gianaristide Norelli, testified that they believed Meredith was attacked by more than one person. There were bruises around both Meredith's elbows and on her right forearm which indicate that Meredith was being restrained while she was being attacked with the knives.

There was blood on Meredith's left hand and almost none on her right hand. It seems almost certain that Meredith right arm was being restrained when the fatal wound was inflicted and that she managed to free her left hand and bring it to the wound on her neck.

The fact there were two different sized bloody footprints in Meredith's room prove that Meredith wasn't killed by a lone wolf. The bloody footprints were compatible with Rudy Guede's and Amanda Knox's foot sizes.

Meredith's room was locked and her two mobile phones were thrown into a nearby garden. We don't know when Meredith's room was locked.
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Offline nicki

Forensics Moderator


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:27 am

Posts: 847

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 12:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

malcolm wrote:
Nicki, Catnip, Brian,

I went through all the parts of the Micheli report that had been translated on the "Data Examinations" forum, but I only found a few pages worth of translations, mainly concentrated in the 70s and 80s, with the beginning and end of the document having been translated as well. Aside from the sections that Tiziano translated for Brian recently, were there any other sections translated? I'd like to help organize this project.

Also, I copy and pasted the copy from the Penale website into a word document, but the page numbers seem to differ slightly from those of, e.g., Catnip. I'm thinking of posting the whole thing in the Data Examinations section, with page numbers added and the sections that have translated already highlighted in a different color.


Hi Malcom,
The report is very long, as Micheli reviews every single detail of the witnesses depositions relatively to their whereabouts, their connections to the suspects and their friends etc, even those that are unrelated and/or not important e.g. details on Filomena 's boyfriend's friends, depositions of people whose name we have never heard elsewhere because not relevant to the investigation etc. The translations of selected pages attempted to give the relevant facts upon which Micheli based his decision to sentence Guede and send the other two to trials. We avoided to translate the many pages containing graphic details for obvious reasons. I'll review the original report when I have some time but honestly I don't know how many more pages if any, may add any significant value to what we already know. I am afraid most of it is quite boring material. However, excellent summaries of the Micheli verdict exist on TJMK, so if you would like to read the material in a more "organized" fashion, I suggest you check over there.

_________________
"A pensare male si fa peccato, ma molto spesso ci si azzecca" mike
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 12:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

"she told me that the killers stabbed her more then 35 times and then
locked her in the room to die alone. Is that true?"

"Stabbed more than 35 times" is not true. Most of the injuries were bruises.
It is not known if she was alive when the door was locked.
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Offline Hungarian


Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:40 am

Posts: 155

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 1:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

thoughtful wrote:
Quote:
His name is Juba, not Juve -- not to cause more confusion.


Except that it seems he might have been going by Juve in Italy; at any rate that is what he is called on the tapes. It makes sense since the italians love that name, it's the nickname of favorite soccer team Juventus. He was clearly a foreigner but most people weren't clear on where he came from, Amanda thought Albania, others have mentioned South America, but I believe in the end he is from the Maghreb. At any rate, it seems very unlikely that Juve-Juba can contribute much to the defense.


My problem is, that I shall be confused. I might think it is not the same person, who is listed as a witness, but an other one. That's all.
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Offline budapesti


Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 1:51 pm

Posts: 16

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 1:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Apologies if this has already been asked, but did they find fingerprints on the 2 mobile phones of Meredith's that were found? I don't recall reading anything about fingerprints on them.
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Offline Hungarian


Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:40 am

Posts: 155

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 1:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

bolint wrote:
"she told me that the killers stabbed her more then 35 times and then
locked her in the room to die alone. Is that true?"

"Stabbed more than 35 times" is not true. Most of the injuries were bruises.
It is not known if she was alive when the door was locked.



So, what's the true number? of the stab-wounds.
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Offline malcolm


Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:26 am

Posts: 239

Location: Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

budapesti wrote:
Apologies if this has already been asked, but did they find fingerprints on the 2 mobile phones of Meredith's that were found? I don't recall reading anything about fingerprints on them.

No fingerprints or blood or DNA evidence found on the phones.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

"So, what's the true number? of the stab-wounds."

Three stabs on her neck, one of them caused the death, and some small cuts on her hand.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

"Apologies if this has already been asked, but did they find fingerprints on the 2 mobile phones of Meredith's that were found?"

Nothing usable. Too many people had them in their hands, those who found them and the postal police.
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Offline Jools


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

This article from Il Messaggero, I think clarifies the confusion on yesterday's difference in reporting Sollecito's defense and prosecution request for further documents to be made available for all parties regarding the quantity of DNA collected from the bra metal clasp.
Prosecutor Manuela Comodi spoke of a quantity of 1.4 nanograms for the first time in court yesterday when questioning RS consultant Adriano Tagliabracci. This apparently alarmed Giulia Bongiorno to say that this is the first time after 7 months of trial that a quantity figure of DNA collected has been mentioned for the whole duration time of trial. It provoked Bongiorno/Maori, with Mignini/Comodi agreeing to it, to request the court that all documents work done by Stefanoni be made available to all parties, therefore making the trial postponed till September 14.

I will put the whole article in Italian here before it dissapears. Perhaps someone could translate? sor-) I don't have time to do it my self today at all. Thanks!


...PERUGIA - E’ il gancetto di reggiseno più famoso del mondo. Perché sopra a quei millimetri quadrati ci potrebbe essere scritta una condanna all’ergastolo. Il reggiseno è quello di Meredith Kercher, la ragazza inglese uccisa la notte di Ognissanti del 2007. E quando ieri mattina l’hanno portato dentro una busta nell’aula del Tribunale dove vengono processati Amanda Knox e Raffaele Sollecito, accusati di avere ucciso Meredith assieme a Rudy Guede, nessuno avrebbe immaginato cosa sarebbe successo per quel pezzo di stoffa di genere intimo. Sopra a quel piccolissimo ferretto, infatti, c’è il dna di Raffaele Sollecito. E questo è l’unica indiscutibile certezza. Il problema è di come ci sia finito. Per l’accusa Raffaele ha strappato il reggiseno di Mez la notte del delitto quando era in camera dell’inglese assieme a Rudy e Amanda pronti ad una violenza carnale da portare avanti fino alla morte per strangolamento. Per la difesa, invece, quel dna c’è finito per caso, anzi per dirla con le parole di Adriano Tagliabracci, esperto di genetica e consulente della difesa di Sollecito, «il dna non ha le ali, ma può volare». Secondo il tecnico della difesa lo spostamento sarebbe avvenuto durante i rilievi della polizia scientifica in camere di Mez subito dopo il delitto. Il dna di Raffaele che si trovava in un punto delle casa sarebbe stato poi trasportato sul gancetto al momento di prelevarlo da terra. Una teoria confutata ovviamente dall’accusa che parla di quantità alta di dna affinché prenda il volo, anzi che si sia depositata dopo un trasporto aereo. La quantità di Dna, però, non era stata mai specificata dall’accusa. Così quando ieri mattina in aula il pm Maunela Comodi ha parlato di 1,4 nanogrammi di dna aggiungendo «questa quantità sarebbe sufficiente per una corretta attribuzione?» la difesa si è subito allarmata: per la prima volta usciva quel dato che finora, dopo sette mesi di processo, non era stato reso pubblico. Così la difesa (avvocato Giulia Bongiorno) ha chiesto tutti i dati e le analisi ancora coperte per poterle studiare. Così si rinvia a settembre (il 14), che annuncia ancora caldo.

PERUGIA - C’erano delle carte ancora segrete nel processo in Corte d’assise per l’omicidio di Meredith Kercher. Si tratta di documentazione di laboratorio che soltanto ora, dopo quanto è successo ieri mattina al processo contro Amanda Knox e Raffaele Sollecito, verranno messe a disposizione delle parti. Una decisione presa su richiesta della difesa di Sollecito alla quale si è associata quella della Knox, con il consenso dei pubblici ministeri. A sollevare la questione è stata l'avvocato Giulia Bongiorno, uno dei legali del giovane pugliese, nel corso della deposizione del proprio consulente, il medico-legale Adriano Tagliabracci, esperto di genetica forense.
Questi ha sostenuto la non corretta interpretazione del Dna riscontrato sul gancetto del reggiseno di Meredith Kercher in parte attribuito a Raffaele Sollecito e la «inevitabile contaminazione» del materiale genetico («che non ha le ali ma può volare», ha detto tra l'altro). Dopo alcune domande del pm Manuela Comodi su quale quantità di materiale considerasse sufficiente per la corretta attribuzione del Dna, la Bongiorno ha chiesto il deposito della relativa documentazione affermando che non è mai stata messa a disposizione delle difese.
Un'istanza alla quale non si è opposto il pm Comodi. «Non ci fa che piacere che ciò avvenga», ha detto il magistrato, spiegando comunque come si tratti di dati «normalmente non riportati». Il pubblico ministero ha inoltre sottolineato che «tutti gli esami sono stati svolti con la formula dell'accertamento tecnico irripetibile, sempre alla presenza dei difensori o dei loro consulenti». La Corte ha quindi disposto che la documentazione venga depositata in cancelleria entro il 30 luglio. Il processo riprenderà invece alla metà di settembre. Fissato anche un nuovo calendario di udienze e il presidente del collegio, Giancarlo Massei, si è augurato che entro l'inizio di ottobre venga esaurita l'istruttoria dibattimentale. Al termine dell'udienza il pm Comodi si è detta «certa che i dati richiesti avvaloreranno ulteriormente il quadro accusatorio». Di diverso avviso la Bongiorno. «Abbiamo fatto un processo al buio, in assenza di elementi per noi essenziali» ha sottolineato.
Di «dati richiesti da un anno e mezzo, anche in udienza preliminare, ma mai forniti» ha parlato l'avvocato Luca Maori, un altro dei difensori di Sollecito. «Nessun occultamento di dati perchè nella sua relazione la scientifica ha sempre indicato livelli di Dna sufficienti per le analisi» è stata la replica dell'avvocato Francesco Maresca che rappresenta come parte civile la famiglia Kercher. Dopo sette mesi di udienze, si ferma per la pausa estiva il processo ad Amanda Knox e a Raffaele Sollecito per l'omicidio di Meredith Kercher. Riprenderà il 14 settembre prossimo con gli ultimi testi della difesa.


Last edited by Jools on Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline malcolm


Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:26 am

Posts: 239

Location: Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

bolint wrote:
"So, what's the true number? of the stab-wounds."

Three stabs on her neck, one of them caused the death, and some small cuts on her hand.

I believe there was 1 small cut on the left hand (between the fingers?) and several larger cuts on the right hand, as she fended off her attacker(s). I'm not aware of any cuts anywhere other than her neck and hands.
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Offline stint7


User avatar


Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:07 pm

Posts: 1582

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Does anyone feel sympathy for poor Edda who is now whining about having to stay in Italy for two months while everyone else is on vacation ? And this vacation has also, according to her, caused the defense to "hurry up" their presentation.
http://www.tuscaloosanews.com/article/2 ... k-in-Trial

How about empathy for Dimwit daughter Deanna who said the Italian Court dislikes Amanda because she is an attractive American, and who dignifies her own Court appearance by wearing Red Hotpants to the trial on 4 July.
Deanna also demonstrated her reverence and intelligence by posing in front of the murder scene wearing short shorts, and exhibitionist top, along with her similarly immodest half sister.

This in a country where men are considered immodest if knees are exposed.

What a crew...where was the Big Buck Public Relations operation the Family says is bankrupting them.
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Offline martin


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:28 pm

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

[quote="Jools"]This article from Il Messaggero

Very good article, Jools, thanks
nin-)
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Offline jfk1191


Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:46 am

Posts: 286

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Michael wrote:
JK wrote:
Does anyone know if it's against the law to leak all this info., in a case like this?


Not at the trial stage. Once it reaches trial the legal teams for either the prosecution, defence or the victims can release whatever data to the press or public they want.

The only exceptions to would be any specific aspects a judge has ordered cannot be released, if there are any.


Was the interrogation, of Nov 5, considered a leak, as it was in the media long before this trial?

The only people at the interrogation on the Nov 6 was the staff, PM, and the accused.

but this article on Nov 9 2007 clearly is talking about all the interrogation details, which really was when the stories all changed and they were considered liars from then on.

A case fought in the internet?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... eport.html

It's finally making sense why so much attention was turned to the internet on both sides.

and the jurors not being sequestered from the internet of info.

wonder if there will be follow-ups to the "leaks" after the case is over?
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Offline martin


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:28 pm

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:47 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

stint7 wrote:
Does anyone feel sympathy for poor Edda who is now whining about having to stay in Italy for two months while everyone else is on vacation ? And this vacation has also, according to her, caused the defense to "hurry up" their presentation.
http://www.tuscaloosanews.com/article/2 ... k-in-Trial

How about empathy for Dimwit daughter Deanna who said the Italian Court dislikes Amanda because she is an attractive American, and who dignifies her own Court appearance by wearing Red Hotpants to the trial on 4 July.
Deanna also demonstrated her reverence and intelligence by posing in front of the murder scene wearing short shorts, and exhibitionist top, along with her similarly immodest half sister.

This in a country where men are considered immodest if knees are exposed.

What a crew...where was the Big Buck Public Relations operation the Family says is bankrupting them.

Hi Stint,
does it really matter how they were dressed?
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Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

jfk1191 wrote:
Michael wrote:
JK wrote:
Does anyone know if it's against the law to leak all this info., in a case like this?


Not at the trial stage. Once it reaches trial the legal teams for either the prosecution, defence or the victims can release whatever data to the press or public they want.

The only exceptions to would be any specific aspects a judge has ordered cannot be released, if there are any.


Was the interrogation, of Nov 5, considered a leak, as it was in the media long before this trial?

The only people at the interrogation on the Nov 6 was the staff, PM, and the accused.

but this article on Nov 9 2007 clearly is talking about all the interrogation details, which really was when the stories all changed and they were considered liars from then on.

A case fought in the internet?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... eport.html

It's finally making sense why so much attention was turned to the internet on both sides.

and the jurors not being sequestered from the internet of info.

wonder if there will be follow-ups to the "leaks" after the case is over?


No, Judge Claudia Matteini released details of the interrogation in her hearing report on 9 Nov. Judges reports have to be made public, it's one of the checks and balances.

As fory the jury, I doubt they go online and read the Daily Mail. But I see little problem with that anyway. The jury, or more aptly "Lay Judges" have complete access to the whole case file , evry shred of revidence regarding the case. Therefore, there's nothing the press can tell them they don't already know. Anything that is in the press and is false, the judges will also know.

They are not like a simple jury in the US/UK system that at the end solely makes a simple vote of yay or nay, so they can't make judgements based on 'predjudice'. They have to write out all their reasoning on every single point of exactly why they have come to each conclusion they and each has to be shown with a full path of logic. They must also explain what evidence they accept and that which they do not and exactly why. All this then gets made fully public afterwards. Literally every single one of their thought processes is put under the microscope.

In the US/UK jury system it's simply a vote one way or the other. Jurors do not have to explain themselves, so they can vote for whatever reason they wish, even if it's simply because they don't like the accused, don't approve or any number of predjudices. The Italian system is deliberately constructed to prevent that.

As for leaks, why show favouritism? The defence teams have been leaking like sieves almost since the beginning. Therefore, if you are wanting enquiries into leaks all parties should be examined accordingly, not just the prosecution.

Indeed, the prosecution hasn't been 'leaking' very much at all, if anything. When they have, Mignini responded robustly and dealt with it. That is why Lalli was sacked from the case. Of course, the prosecution can't win in some peoples minds. If they sack people for leaking it's twisted against them and claimed they sacked them because they disagreed with the prosecution line.

Also, one needs to bear in mind, what leaks have come from the ILE are not actually from the prosecution as an office at all, but rather 'individuals' whohave their own reasons for leaking. Multiple police departments were involved in this case, not to mention various scientific experts, literally hundreds of people. Some may leak because someone's given them a back hander or because they are repaying a favour to a journo who's a friend of theirs or because they made a mistake and thought it was okay to speak of a specific element. People are dynamic independent individuals and to lay it all at the foot of Mignini, like he has mind control over everyone is a bit much. Organisations leak. People leak. It's a fact of life.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline petafly


Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:08 pm

Posts: 278

Location: Switzerland/Germany

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Quote:
So, no vacation for the beautiful biologist, she will have to provide a lot of data, about the activity of the lab in general and about the most important tests in particular. And when those data should be insufficient or if they shouldn't add up with the rest, the judge may erase from the trial some of the body of evidence: the DNA on the bra clasp and on the blade. Important ones?
Again Frank shows his beautiful character. He cheers about a possible procedural violation in the DNA-lab link.

I bet, after OJ Simpsons was found not guilty of slashing his wife to pieces, Frank threw a party... mul-)
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Offline Michael

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Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Jools wrote:
This article from Il Messaggero, I think clarifies the confusion on yesterday's difference in reporting Sollecito's defense and prosecution request for further documents to be made available for all parties regarding the quantity of DNA collected from the bra metal clasp.
Prosecutor Manuela Comodi spoke of a quantity of 1.4 nanograms for the first time in court yesterday when questioning RS consultant Adriano Tagliabracci. This apparently alarmed Giulia Bongiorno to say that this is the first time after 7 months of trial that a quantity figure of DNA collected has been mentioned for the whole duration time of trial. It provoked Bongiorno/Maori, with Mignini/Comodi agreeing to it, to request the court that all documents work done by Stefanoni be made available to all parties, therefore making the trial postponed till September 14.



Thanks Jools, that makes things much clearer :)

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline stint7


User avatar


Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:07 pm

Posts: 1582

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Hi Martin:

As you point out, how you are dressed may matter very little, (especially in USA for Gen X and younger).

My point was that in Italy, it matters very much, even to the Jury, as I tried to state the next to last sentence of my Post.

I based my conclusion on the following article:

*************************

Not only has her defense's forensics expert contradicted her co-defendant's forensic expert, her family has unwittingly fatto una bruta figura (made a bad impression) in the Italian press.

Last weekend, Knox's mother, Edda Mellas, and Knox's two younger sisters, Deanna and Ashley, posed for a series of pictures for the Italian magazine Gente. One of the shots features Knox's younger sisters standing before the house in which Kercher was murdered. Deanna, 20, and Ashley, 14, are both wearing short-shorts.Needless to say, the pictures have drawn the family unwanted attention at a crucial point in the trial. In a country where image and reputation is paramount, Knox's sisters also have drawn criticism for their relatively casual courtroom ensembles. On the 4th of July, Deanna wore a red, white, and blue ensemble replete with hotpants to watch her sister's court proceedings.

A Rome-based criminal lawyer named Alessandra Batassa told Newsweek that in Italy, "the jury pays attention to much more than the testimony...the lawyers should take control of the client's complete image - including who attends court with her - not just the client's personal behavior."
*******************************
http://www.zimbio.com/Amanda+Knox/artic ... +Courtroom

Best Regards
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2308

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:29 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

stint7 wrote:
What a crew...where was the Big Buck Public Relations operation the Family says is bankrupting them.


Curt Knox and Edda Mellas have spent around $1 million on lawyers and hiring David Marriott's PR company. How many families could afford to spend so much money?

Why have they hired a PR firm anyway? They seem to think they can buy a not guilty verdict. They don't realise that it doesn't matter how many times they tell a journalist or reporter that their daughter is innocent or how much money they spend, it will have no effect on the verdict in October. The fact they are trying to influence the judicial process of another sovereign country speak volumes about their characters.

The US television networks have been paying their expenses. The cozy relationship between some of the American media organisations and Curt and Edda has clearly influenced the content of their newspaper reports and news programmes.

Curt and Edda have seen an opportunity to get rich quick. Don't be surprised if they follow in the footsteps of their friend Candace Dempsey and sign book deals.
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Offline Fly by Night


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:09 pm

Posts: 1014

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

stint7 wrote:
Hi Martin:

As you point out, how you are dressed may matter very little, (especially in USA for Gen X and younger).

My point was that in Italy, it matters very much, even to the Jury, as I tried to state the next to last sentence of my Post.


Just one more example of how far over-their-heads everything is for this Knox clan - ever since Doug Preston convinced them to go down a path built entirely for his glory and profit. It's a nice dream while it lasts, I suppose, but when it dies only heartbreak remains. And die it will. As John Lennon said: "The dream is over."
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Offline Michael

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Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:42 pm   Post subject: Frank   

New Frankoid

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
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Offline jfk1191


Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:46 am

Posts: 286

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Michael wrote:
jfk1191 wrote:
Michael wrote:
JK wrote:
Does anyone know if it's against the law to leak all this info., in a case like this?


Not at the trial stage. Once it reaches trial the legal teams for either the prosecution, defence or the victims can release whatever data to the press or public they want.

The only exceptions to would be any specific aspects a judge has ordered cannot be released, if there are any.


Was the interrogation, of Nov 5, considered a leak, as it was in the media long before this trial?

The only people at the interrogation on the Nov 6 was the staff, PM, and the accused.

but this article on Nov 9 2007 clearly is talking about all the interrogation details, which really was when the stories all changed and they were considered liars from then on.

A case fought in the internet?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... eport.html

It's finally making sense why so much attention was turned to the internet on both sides.

and the jurors not being sequestered from the internet of info.

wonder if there will be follow-ups to the "leaks" after the case is over?


No, Judge Claudia Matteini released details of the interrogation in her hearing report on 9 Nov. Judges reports have to be made public, it's one of the checks and balances.

As fory the jury, I doubt they go online and read the Daily Mail. But I see little problem with that anyway. The jury, or more aptly "Lay Judges" have complete access to the whole case file , evry shred of revidence regarding the case. Therefore, there's nothing the press can tell them they don't already know. Anything that is in the press and is false, the judges will also know.

They are not like a simple jury in the US/UK system that at the end solely makes a simple vote of yay or nay, so they can't make judgements based on 'predjudice'. They have to write out all their reasoning on every single point of exactly why they have come to each conclusion they and each has to be shown with a full path of logic. They must also explain what evidence they accept and that which they do not and exactly why. All this then gets made fully public afterwards. Literally every single one of their thought processes is put under the microscope.

In the US/UK jury system it's simply a vote one way or the other. Jurors do not have to explain themselves, so they can vote for whatever reason they wish, even if it's simply because they don't like the accused, don't approve or any number of predjudices. The Italian system is deliberately constructed to prevent that.

As for leaks, why show favouritism? The defence teams have been leaking like sieves almost since the beginning. Therefore, if you are wanting enquiries into leaks all parties should be examined accordingly, not just the prosecution.

Indeed, the prosecution hasn't been 'leaking' very much at all, if anything. When they have, Mignini responded robustly and dealt with it. That is why Lalli was sacked from the case. Of course, the prosecution can't win in some peoples minds. If they sack people for leaking it's twisted against them and claimed they sacked them because they disagreed with the prosecution line.

Also, one needs to bear in mind, what leaks have come from the ILE are not actually from the prosecution as an office at all, but rather 'individuals' whohave their own reasons for leaking. Multiple police departments were involved in this case, not to mention various scientific experts, literally hundreds of people. Some may leak because someone's given them a back hander or because they are repaying a favour to a journo who's a friend of theirs or because they made a mistake and thought it was okay to speak of a specific element. People are dynamic independent individuals and to lay it all at the foot of Mignini, like he has mind control over everyone is a bit much. Organisations leak. People leak. It's a fact of life.



thanks, an intelligent and great answer..

no I'm not suspecting the one side or the other, the interrogation to me was pivotal, and highly suspicious to me. No films, but they have all this surveilance stuff going on, they film the Forensic investigation they filmed the courtrooms, they film the parking garage.....but not the interrogation? it has to be intentionally NOT filmed. yes?

Its not doubted the defense has done the PR thing, so thats not interesting to me. I don't think anyone argues that do they?
but i wonder if the other side, the "pro" Prosecution, has slipped a few to the internet too. its a new battleground of info. propaganda, the internet. as we all know character assasination can be a powerful thing, so the internet can do this. it just seems a lot of "unknown" laws and rules for the internet are surfacing and devious behavior and falsitys can be spread from "virtual" people. it probably doesn't matter anyway.


your right there's a really interesting approach of the courts in comparison to Italy and the US.
this is the first case I ever read about in Italy.

appreciate the answers and explanations on the courts.
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Offline Fly by Night


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:09 pm

Posts: 1014

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Hungarian wrote:


"Saturday’s hearing ended with a dramatic exchange about whether the prosecution had been given key documents regarding the DNA on Kercher’s bra. The charge was seen as a blatant attempt by the prosecution to throw the defense’s witness, and it worked. The exchange ended with Sollecito’s lawyers accusing the prosecution with illegality – a move many thought was primarily to set the stage for an appeal if one or both are convicted."


This is great! Another fine example of the excellent news coverage and analysis we are getting here in the USA. Seattle TV News anchor Kathi Goertzen flew to Perugia to report first-hand about these final two days of defense testimony and here is her report:

"It appears everyone involved in the case needs to take some time off. Some jurors have been falling asleep during testimony, and the prosecution and defense attorneys were shouting at one another on Saturday. I think everybody's just ready for a break."

OK Kids - TIME OUT while mommy gets some rest.

Why do they even bother?
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2308

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

jfk1191 wrote:
no I'm not suspecting the one side or the other, the interrogation to me was pivotal, and highly suspicious to me. No films, but they have all this surveilance stuff going on, they film the Forensic investigation they filmed the courtrooms, they film the parking garage.....but not the interrogation? it has to be intentionally NOT filmed. yes?


Who are they? What survelliance stuff is going on?

The scientific police filmed their work inside the cottage. They didn't film every part of their investigation.

Television news channels have filmed what's been happening in the courtroom.

Most towns and cities have CCTV have cameras. I seriously doubt whether the CCTV camera in the car park is a police camera.

Do you know for a fact that the interrogations weren't filmed? I know they were recorded. Amanda Knox was asked if she wanted a lawyer and she declined the offer. She wanted to make a statement to the police. Three police interpreters have testified under oath that Amanda Knox wasn't mistreated. I have no reason to doubt what they say.

However, Amanda Knox is a compulsive liar who lied from the very beginning and she lied when she testified in court recently. You don't seem to grasp this very simple point.
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Offline Fly by Night


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

The Machine wrote:
jfk1191 wrote:
no I'm not suspecting the one side or the other, the interrogation to me was pivotal, and highly suspicious to me. No films, but they have all this surveilance stuff going on, they film the Forensic investigation they filmed the courtrooms, they film the parking garage.....but not the interrogation? it has to be intentionally NOT filmed. yes?


Who are they? What survelliance stuff is going on?

The scientific police filmed their work inside the cottage. They didn't film every part of their investigation.

Television news channels have filmed what's been happening in the courtroom.

Most towns and cities have CCTV have cameras. I seriously doubt whether the CCTV camera in the car park is a police camera.

Do you know for a fact that the interrogations weren't filmed? I know they were recorded. Amanda Knox was asked if she wanted a lawyer and she declined the offer. She wanted to make a statement to the police. Three police interpreters have testified under oath that Amanda Knox wasn't mistreated. I have no reason to doubt what they say.

However, Amanda Knox is a compulsive liar who lied from the very beginning and she lied when she testified in court recently. You don't seem to grasp this very simple point.


Exactly! There is no they here, and that's why all the conspiracy theories have died on the vine, for most of us anyways. JFK argues as though each of these independent entities, with their separate missions and governance, are party to an informed and unified plot, perhaps all orchestrated by the Evil Mignini himself. Nothing could be further from the truth. JFK is either very naïve or the victim of nationalistic prejudice.
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 6:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Jools wrote:
This article from Il Messaggero, I think clarifies the confusion on yesterday's difference in reporting Sollecito's defense and prosecution request for further documents to be made available for all parties regarding the quantity of DNA collected from the bra metal clasp.
Prosecutor Manuela Comodi spoke of a quantity of 1.4 nanograms for the first time in court yesterday when questioning RS consultant Adriano Tagliabracci. This apparently alarmed Giulia Bongiorno to say that this is the first time after 7 months of trial that a quantity figure of DNA collected has been mentioned for the whole duration time of trial. It provoked Bongiorno/Maori, with Mignini/Comodi agreeing to it, to request the court that all documents work done by Stefanoni be made available to all parties, therefore making the trial postponed till September 14.

I will put the whole article in Italian here before it dissapears. Perhaps someone could translate? sor-) I don't have time to do it my self today at all. Thanks!


...PERUGIA - E’ il gancetto di reggiseno più famoso del mondo. Perché sopra a quei millimetri quadrati ci potrebbe essere scritta una condanna all’ergastolo. Il reggiseno è quello di Meredith Kercher, la ragazza inglese uccisa la notte di Ognissanti del 2007. E quando ieri mattina l’hanno portato dentro una busta nell’aula del Tribunale dove vengono processati Amanda Knox e Raffaele Sollecito, accusati di avere ucciso Meredith assieme a Rudy Guede, nessuno avrebbe immaginato cosa sarebbe successo per quel pezzo di stoffa di genere intimo. Sopra a quel piccolissimo ferretto, infatti, c’è il dna di Raffaele Sollecito. E questo è l’unica indiscutibile certezza. Il problema è di come ci sia finito. Per l’accusa Raffaele ha strappato il reggiseno di Mez la notte del delitto quando era in camera dell’inglese assieme a Rudy e Amanda pronti ad una violenza carnale da portare avanti fino alla morte per strangolamento. Per la difesa, invece, quel dna c’è finito per caso, anzi per dirla con le parole di Adriano Tagliabracci, esperto di genetica e consulente della difesa di Sollecito, «il dna non ha le ali, ma può volare». Secondo il tecnico della difesa lo spostamento sarebbe avvenuto durante i rilievi della polizia scientifica in camere di Mez subito dopo il delitto. Il dna di Raffaele che si trovava in un punto delle casa sarebbe stato poi trasportato sul gancetto al momento di prelevarlo da terra. Una teoria confutata ovviamente dall’accusa che parla di quantità alta di dna affinché prenda il volo, anzi che si sia depositata dopo un trasporto aereo. La quantità di Dna, però, non era stata mai specificata dall’accusa. Così quando ieri mattina in aula il pm Maunela Comodi ha parlato di 1,4 nanogrammi di dna aggiungendo «questa quantità sarebbe sufficiente per una corretta attribuzione?» la difesa si è subito allarmata: per la prima volta usciva quel dato che finora, dopo sette mesi di processo, non era stato reso pubblico. Così la difesa (avvocato Giulia Bongiorno) ha chiesto tutti i dati e le analisi ancora coperte per poterle studiare. Così si rinvia a settembre (il 14), che annuncia ancora caldo.

PERUGIA - C’erano delle carte ancora segrete nel processo in Corte d’assise per l’omicidio di Meredith Kercher. Si tratta di documentazione di laboratorio che soltanto ora, dopo quanto è successo ieri mattina al processo contro Amanda Knox e Raffaele Sollecito, verranno messe a disposizione delle parti. Una decisione presa su richiesta della difesa di Sollecito alla quale si è associata quella della Knox, con il consenso dei pubblici ministeri. A sollevare la questione è stata l'avvocato Giulia Bongiorno, uno dei legali del giovane pugliese, nel corso della deposizione del proprio consulente, il medico-legale Adriano Tagliabracci, esperto di genetica forense.
Questi ha sostenuto la non corretta interpretazione del Dna riscontrato sul gancetto del reggiseno di Meredith Kercher in parte attribuito a Raffaele Sollecito e la «inevitabile contaminazione» del materiale genetico («che non ha le ali ma può volare», ha detto tra l'altro). Dopo alcune domande del pm Manuela Comodi su quale quantità di materiale considerasse sufficiente per la corretta attribuzione del Dna, la Bongiorno ha chiesto il deposito della relativa documentazione affermando che non è mai stata messa a disposizione delle difese.
Un'istanza alla quale non si è opposto il pm Comodi. «Non ci fa che piacere che ciò avvenga», ha detto il magistrato, spiegando comunque come si tratti di dati «normalmente non riportati». Il pubblico ministero ha inoltre sottolineato che «tutti gli esami sono stati svolti con la formula dell'accertamento tecnico irripetibile, sempre alla presenza dei difensori o dei loro consulenti». La Corte ha quindi disposto che la documentazione venga depositata in cancelleria entro il 30 luglio. Il processo riprenderà invece alla metà di settembre. Fissato anche un nuovo calendario di udienze e il presidente del collegio, Giancarlo Massei, si è augurato che entro l'inizio di ottobre venga esaurita l'istruttoria dibattimentale. Al termine dell'udienza il pm Comodi si è detta «certa che i dati richiesti avvaloreranno ulteriormente il quadro accusatorio». Di diverso avviso la Bongiorno. «Abbiamo fatto un processo al buio, in assenza di elementi per noi essenziali» ha sottolineato.
Di «dati richiesti da un anno e mezzo, anche in udienza preliminare, ma mai forniti» ha parlato l'avvocato Luca Maori, un altro dei difensori di Sollecito. «Nessun occultamento di dati perchè nella sua relazione la scientifica ha sempre indicato livelli di Dna sufficienti per le analisi» è stata la replica dell'avvocato Francesco Maresca che rappresenta come parte civile la famiglia Kercher. Dopo sette mesi di udienze, si ferma per la pausa estiva il processo ad Amanda Knox e a Raffaele Sollecito per l'omicidio di Meredith Kercher. Riprenderà il 14 settembre prossimo con gli ultimi testi della difesa.

Hi Bella,
your did it again! :D
Interesting article. It appears that Buongiorno made a big deal about not knowing the exact amount of DNA of the sample,but to me it's just smoke-she must show her clients she 's earning her six figure fee cl-)
The analyses were conducted "according to the non-repeatibility formula in the presence of defense or their consultants". If nobody showed up, it's not the prosecution problem. Furthermore, the information about the quantity of DNA has not been hidden, since all the documents reported that the sample was in sufficient quantity to be analized and 1,4 nanograms is definitely sufficient for a correct attribution. In fact, Comodi agreed to release the details, and she added "we are only pleased to oblige, even if it is not customary to report these detailed results".

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Offline malcolm


Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:26 am

Posts: 239

Location: Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 6:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Michael wrote:
malcolm wrote:
I'm thinking of posting the whole thing in the Data Examinations section, with page numbers added and the sections that have translated already highlighted in a different color.


I'd be fine with that, on the proviso that any translated sections are passed on to Skep to peruse before being published publicly. There are some very brutal elements of what happened to Meredith in that report that we didn't want to publish and Skep has very clear ideas of what those elements are. Therefore, Skep needs to be able to check it over first.

That's fine, I can do that, but I just want to point out that I was talking about first posting in Italian with pagination and color coding. Moreover, a Google translation of the entire document, including the objectionable parts, is currently posted in the Data Examinations folder. Finally, I wasn't planning on posting ANY of the translated document anywhere outside of the Data Examinations folder at this stage.
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Offline malcolm


Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:26 am

Posts: 239

Location: Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 6:58 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

nicki wrote:
The report is very long, as Micheli reviews every single detail of the witnesses depositions relatively to their whereabouts, their connections to the suspects and their friends etc, even those that are unrelated and/or not important e.g. details on Filomena 's boyfriend's friends, depositions of people whose name we have never heard elsewhere because not relevant to the investigation etc. The translations of selected pages attempted to give the relevant facts upon which Micheli based his decision to sentence Guede and send the other two to trials. We avoided to translate the many pages containing graphic details for obvious reasons. I'll review the original report when I have some time but honestly I don't know how many more pages if any, may add any significant value to what we already know. I am afraid most of it is quite boring material. However, excellent summaries of the Micheli verdict exist on TJMK, so if you would like to read the material in a more "organized" fashion, I suggest you check over there.

I've read all the material on TJMK and also what you and others have translated in the past, as well as the Micheli report itself. I agree that much of it is boring, repetitive, or irrelevant to this case. OTOH, a number of sections have been posted only in Google translation in response to requests, and I do see more material that is interesting that hasn't been translated as far as I can tell. I'll do what I can when I have time - I'm not asking for anyone else to join me.
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Offline Professor Snape


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Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:53 pm

Posts: 247

Location: Seattle. WA

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 7:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

beans wrote:
Snape said:

Quote:
We don't all wear jeans to the opera in Seattle - only the Knox family when Macy's forks out employee tickets.

Wearing patriotic clothing to even a US court even on the 4th if they were open is simply self promoting. Ring a bell??
What would have shown tasteful class was to wear a small rinestone pin on her blazer jacket.


No Snape, we don't all wear jeans to the opera (I don't)--but some do and more than just the Knox family. I was just trying to indicate that Seattlites are pretty casual dressers. Most, however, seem to understand when more formal clothing is in order. The Knoxes aren't among them apparently. They are showing up for court dressed more casually than most American visitors out sightseeing.

What would have shown tasteful class is to have worn a blazer etc. rather than shorts and a low-cut casual top. Because of George Bush's idiotic expectation that wearing a flag lapel pin on every occasion demonstrated what a great patriot he was, I think a small, patriotic rhinestone pin might have been even more of an in-your-face than the red, white and blue clothing... But I concede, that the red, white and blue combination, even if conservative could be misconstrued, especially in the face of the comments by Deanna and others of the family that AK is being persecuted because she is an American. They should have saved the red, white and blue for after court.

I just wanted to add, you can beat the heat with linen or linen-blend clothing--blazers, sleeveless shells and slacks are all available.


Hell no, I would never suggest wearing a flag as I have never allowed myself to be assocated with Bush - I won't even let my neighbors put their stupid plastic flags in my yard (but I do put out an equally "riddikilus" character garden flag). I have pins of all styles and colors to coordinate outfits. IMHO wearing a discreet piece of jewelry with a splash of color honoring American Independence day in an Italian courtroom (less the hot pants) would not be worth my bashing. But we both know Edda and her girls are anything but discreet, I'm with you! It's pretty easy to make them a target of trash topics.

Charming, linen - a very crisp choice!! tt-)

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 7:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

malcolm wrote:
nicki wrote:
The report is very long, as Micheli reviews every single detail of the witnesses depositions relatively to their whereabouts, their connections to the suspects and their friends etc, even those that are unrelated and/or not important e.g. details on Filomena 's boyfriend's friends, depositions of people whose name we have never heard elsewhere because not relevant to the investigation etc. The translations of selected pages attempted to give the relevant facts upon which Micheli based his decision to sentence Guede and send the other two to trials. We avoided to translate the many pages containing graphic details for obvious reasons. I'll review the original report when I have some time but honestly I don't know how many more pages if any, may add any significant value to what we already know. I am afraid most of it is quite boring material. However, excellent summaries of the Micheli verdict exist on TJMK, so if you would like to read the material in a more "organized" fashion, I suggest you check over there.

I've read all the material on TJMK and also what you and others have translated in the past, as well as the Micheli report itself. I agree that much of it is boring, repetitive, or irrelevant to this case. OTOH, a number of sections have been posted only in Google translation in response to requests, and I do see more material that is interesting that hasn't been translated as far as I can tell. I'll do what I can when I have time - I'm not asking for anyone else to join me.


I believe Tiziano also wanted to have a look.

The forum is now public for anyone who want's to view it by the way, it's the 'Data Examination' forum, marked by the animated ying-yang symbol.

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Offline bucketoftea


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Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 7:24 pm   Post subject: Stylists to the Damned   

Dear Beans, I'm sorry, it was supposed to be a joke b-(( I meant nothing at all; it just struck me funny that there might be a living to be had there, and we both have the knack! lol
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Offline Yummi


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Location: Bunga-Bunga Republic

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 8:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

An article by genetist A. Tagliabracci (currently in Sollecito's defense experts team).
I pst it here, to observe that Tagliabraccia claims he can attribute DNA profiles with quantities as low as 25 picograms. He doesn't suggest to implement some amplification/attribution thechiques on quantities below 100 picograms.


http://www.istitutoaffarisociali.it/flex/AppData/Redational/Ejournal/Articoli/Files/D.7e1010a4daa67d625c63/indagini_genetico_forensi.pdf

I quoted this as it could be useful to recall it further.
It might have a part in Comodi' "trick" (keeping secrets her data abut quantities).
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Offline Hershon


Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:01 am

Posts: 42

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:17 am   Post subject: Re: XI. You Can Find My Amanda Knox Blogs At   

You can find my Amanda Knox Blogs at www.giftsandfreeadvice.com/free_advice/category/crime/

Some blogger predicting Knox's diary in 10 years from now?
:lol: :lol: :lol:

....The following is a fictional prediction of what Amanda Knox Prison Diary in the Year 2019 might look like after her conviction and 10th year in an Italian Prison:
“July 9, 2019 Diary Entry”
Prison in Italy
Dear Diary,
Today is my Birthday and as usual I have to bake a birthday cake for my visiting family. Is this any way for Italy to treat a star? My sisters are wearing their skimpy shorts again and are posing by my old House which enraged Italians 10 years ago and which mom blamed for my conviction. The press are paying them a lot of money for these pictures and they’re using some of the money to get me the latest remasters of the Beatles remasters which were last done in 2009. I can’t wait to hear the latest remastered version of “Hey Jude”. I blame the Italian Press for having my sisters originally pose in their shorts in 2009 by the House where Meredith suffered an icky murder. I have better legs then my sisters. Just because my sisters agreed to pose by that House doesn’t make them responsible for posing. I think Patrick Lumumba my old boss made them do it. Yeah, that’s the ticket.
CBS is doing a special story about my innocence this week in the United States which I’m sure will get me out of this Italian Prison immediately. Yeah, right! Mom blames all the CBS stories on enraging the Italians which resulted in my conviction. CBS new theory is that the person who assassinated JFK was behind Meredith Kercher’s murder not me.
Actually, Prison here isn’t such a bad deal after they passed a law giving prisoners unlimited conjugal visits and allowed us to smoke grass. I’ve had over 200 lovers in the last month alone and I bong almost every day. Cable TV here is great and we have a terrific home theater system. The other day, I watched for the 10th time the Amanda Knox Story on DVD starring Jenna Fisher Click Here and I never get tired of it.
Next to Charles Manson, I receive the largest amount of mail of any prisoner in the world. Each week I get thousands of marriage proposals, some of them from actual millionaires. Andy Dick, writes me almost every day!
I’m still doing my cartwheels and have learned to speak my 100th different foreign language since I’ve been here. Oh, I have to go now because my Award Winning MTV Reality Show, “Perugia Hills” is about to start filming its 5th season. I make more money then anyone from my Graduating Class from the University of Washington (Bloggers note: Amanda Knox received her College Degree from the University of Washington after the school decided to award her credits for “Life Experience”). I have a standing invitation to do “Dancing with the Stars” and will do “The Bachelorette” this year if ABC gets permission to film from Prison.


Last edited by Hershon on Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:23 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, 7/17 Jools Quote My Blog Provide Link   

Hershon wrote:
If you are going to quote my blog in its entirety which I don't appreciate and you don't have permission to do- did you ever here of the word copyright infringement, then you should at least provide a link to the Blog which you didn't. I don't appreciate your actions one damn bit.

For anyone interested, my Blog, Gifts and Free Advice, www.giftsandfreeadvice.com/free_advice has posted off the top of my head about 12 Blog Posts or so in the past year on Amanda Knox (I think she's guilty) including:

Amanda Knox Prison Diary: 2019 Prison Diary A Fictional Prediction which Jools so kindly quoted in its entirety without my permission and without providing a link,
Amanda Knox The Movie,
If Amanda Knox is Innocent Why Isn’t She Screaming in Outrage Instead of Behaving Like Spock! and more

You can find my Amanda Knox Blogs at www.giftsandfreeadvice.com/free_advice/category/crime/







Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:44 pm
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:38 pm
Posts: 611
Location: Spain
Some blogger predicting Knox's diary in 10 years from now?
:lol: :lol: :lol:

....The following is a fictional prediction of what Amanda Knox Prison Diary in the Year 2019 might look like after her conviction and 10th year in an Italian Prison:
“July 9, 2019 Diary Entry”
Prison in Italy
Dear Diary,
Today is my Birthday and as usual I have to bake a birthday cake for my visiting family. Is this any way for Italy to treat a star? My sisters are wearing their skimpy shorts again and are posing by my old House which enraged Italians 10 years ago and which mom blamed for my conviction. The press are paying them a lot of money for these pictures and they’re using some of the money to get me the latest remasters of the Beatles remasters which were last done in 2009. I can’t wait to hear the latest remastered version of “Hey Jude”. I blame the Italian Press for having my sisters originally pose in their shorts in 2009 by the House where Meredith suffered an icky murder. I have better legs then my sisters. Just because my sisters agreed to pose by that House doesn’t make them responsible for posing. I think Patrick Lumumba my old boss made them do it. Yeah, that’s the ticket.
CBS is doing a special story about my innocence this week in the United States which I’m sure will get me out of this Italian Prison immediately. Yeah, right! Mom blames all the CBS stories on enraging the Italians which resulted in my conviction. CBS new theory is that the person who assassinated JFK was behind Meredith Kercher’s murder not me.
Actually, Prison here isn’t such a bad deal after they passed a law giving prisoners unlimited conjugal visits and allowed us to smoke grass. I’ve had over 200 lovers in the last month alone and I bong almost every day. Cable TV here is great and we have a terrific home theater system. The other day, I watched for the 10th time the Amanda Knox Story on DVD starring Jenna Fisher Click Here and I never get tired of it.
Next to Charles Manson, I receive the largest amount of mail of any prisoner in the world. Each week I get thousands of marriage proposals, some of them from actual millionaires. Andy Dick, writes me almost every day!
I’m still doing my cartwheels and have learned to speak my 100th different foreign language since I’ve been here. Oh, I have to go now because my Award Winning MTV Reality Show, “Perugia Hills” is about to start filming its 5th season. I make more money then anyone from my Graduating Class from the University of Washington (Bloggers note: Amanda Knox received her College Degree from the University of Washington after the school decided to award her credits for “Life Experience”). I have a standing invitation to do “Dancing with the Stars” and will do “The Bachelorette” this year if ABC gets permission to film from Prison.


Hershon, if you have an issue about anything posted here then please follow protocol and contact one of the Administrators (either Skeptical Bystander or myself). I'm posting this publicly since you opted to make a public scene with your complaint. There are ways of going about things.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Hershon


Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:01 am

Posts: 42

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:57 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -Delete this Post Please   

Please Delete


Last edited by Hershon on Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Tiziano


Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:06 am

Posts: 714

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 5:06 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

...PERUGIA - E’ il gancetto di reggiseno più famoso del mondo. Perché sopra a quei millimetri quadrati ci potrebbe essere scritta una condanna all’ergastolo. Il reggiseno è quello di Meredith Kercher, la ragazza inglese uccisa la notte di Ognissanti del 2007. E quando ieri mattina l’hanno portato dentro una busta nell’aula del Tribunale dove vengono processati Amanda Knox e Raffaele Sollecito, accusati di avere ucciso Meredith assieme a Rudy Guede, nessuno avrebbe immaginato cosa sarebbe successo per quel pezzo di stoffa di genere intimo. Sopra a quel piccolissimo ferretto, infatti, c’è il dna di Raffaele Sollecito. E questo è l’unica indiscutibile certezza. Il problema è di come ci sia finito. Per l’accusa Raffaele ha strappato il reggiseno di Mez la notte del delitto quando era in camera dell’inglese assieme a Rudy e Amanda pronti ad una violenza carnale da portare avanti fino alla morte per strangolamento. Per la difesa, invece, quel dna c’è finito per caso, anzi per dirla con le parole di Adriano Tagliabracci, esperto di genetica e consulente della difesa di Sollecito, «il dna non ha le ali, ma può volare». Secondo il tecnico della difesa lo spostamento sarebbe avvenuto durante i rilievi della polizia scientifica in camere di Mez subito dopo il delitto. Il dna di Raffaele che si trovava in un punto delle casa sarebbe stato poi trasportato sul gancetto al momento di prelevarlo da terra. Una teoria confutata ovviamente dall’accusa che parla di quantità alta di dna affinché prenda il volo, anzi che si sia depositata dopo un trasporto aereo. La quantità di Dna, però, non era stata mai specificata dall’accusa. Così quando ieri mattina in aula il pm Maunela Comodi ha parlato di 1,4 nanogrammi di dna aggiungendo «questa quantità sarebbe sufficiente per una corretta attribuzione?» la difesa si è subito allarmata: per la prima volta usciva quel dato che finora, dopo sette mesi di processo, non era stato reso pubblico. Così la difesa (avvocato Giulia Bongiorno) ha chiesto tutti i dati e le analisi ancora coperte per poterle studiare. Così si rinvia a settembre (il 14), che annuncia ancora caldo.

PERUGIA - C’erano delle carte ancora segrete nel processo in Corte d’assise per l’omicidio di Meredith Kercher. Si tratta di documentazione di laboratorio che soltanto ora, dopo quanto è successo ieri mattina al processo contro Amanda Knox e Raffaele Sollecito, verranno messe a disposizione delle parti. Una decisione presa su richiesta della difesa di Sollecito alla quale si è associata quella della Knox, con il consenso dei pubblici ministeri. A sollevare la questione è stata l'avvocato Giulia Bongiorno, uno dei legali del giovane pugliese, nel corso della deposizione del proprio consulente, il medico-legale Adriano Tagliabracci, esperto di genetica forense.
Questi ha sostenuto la non corretta interpretazione del Dna riscontrato sul gancetto del reggiseno di Meredith Kercher in parte attribuito a Raffaele Sollecito e la «inevitabile contaminazione» del materiale genetico («che non ha le ali ma può volare», ha detto tra l'altro). Dopo alcune domande del pm Manuela Comodi su quale quantità di materiale considerasse sufficiente per la corretta attribuzione del Dna, la Bongiorno ha chiesto il deposito della relativa documentazione affermando che non è mai stata messa a disposizione delle difese.
Un'istanza alla quale non si è opposto il pm Comodi. «Non ci fa che piacere che ciò avvenga», ha detto il magistrato, spiegando comunque come si tratti di dati «normalmente non riportati». Il pubblico ministero ha inoltre sottolineato che «tutti gli esami sono stati svolti con la formula dell'accertamento tecnico irripetibile, sempre alla presenza dei difensori o dei loro consulenti». La Corte ha quindi disposto che la documentazione venga depositata in cancelleria entro il 30 luglio. Il processo riprenderà invece alla metà di settembre. Fissato anche un nuovo calendario di udienze e il presidente del collegio, Giancarlo Massei, si è augurato che entro l'inizio di ottobre venga esaurita l'istruttoria dibattimentale. Al termine dell'udienza il pm Comodi si è detta «certa che i dati richiesti avvaloreranno ulteriormente il quadro accusatorio». Di diverso avviso la Bongiorno. «Abbiamo fatto un processo al buio, in assenza di elementi per noi essenziali» ha sottolineato.
Di «dati richiesti da un anno e mezzo, anche in udienza preliminare, ma mai forniti» ha parlato l'avvocato Luca Maori, un altro dei difensori di Sollecito. «Nessun occultamento di dati perchè nella sua relazione la scientifica ha sempre indicato livelli di Dna sufficienti per le analisi» è stata la replica dell'avvocato Francesco Maresca che rappresenta come parte civile la famiglia Kercher. Dopo sette mesi di udienze, si ferma per la pausa estiva il processo ad Amanda Knox e a Raffaele Sollecito per l'omicidio di Meredith Kercher. Riprenderà il 14 settembre prossimo con gli ultimi testi della difesa.[/quote]
Perugia
It's the clasp of the most famous bra in the world. Because on those few square millimetres of material a life sentence could be written .
It's the bra of Meredith Kercher, the English girl killed on the night of All Saints 2007. And yesterday morning when in a plastic envelope it was brought into the court room where AK an d RS, accused of the murder of MK, together with RG, nobody would have imagined what would happen to that piece of intimate material. On top of that tiny hook, in fact, there is the DNA of RS. And this is the only indisputable certainty. The problem is how it got there. According to the prosecution, Raffaele tore off the Mez' bra the night of the crime when he was in the English girl's room with Rudy and Amanda, ready for a sexual assault which was to finish up with death by strangulation. For the defence, on the other hand, that DNA got there by accident, what is more in the words of Adriano Tagliabracci, genetics expert and consultant for Sollecito's defence, "DNA hasn't got wings, but it can fly". According to the expert for the defence, the transfer happened while the forensic police were collecting samples in Mez' room straight after the crime. Raffaele's DNA which was in fact present in the house was transferred onto the hook at the moment it was removed from the floor. A theory which is obviously rejected by the prosecution which speaks of the large amount of DNA necessary to permit it to fly around, rather than the DNA being deposited by transfer through the air.
However, the amount of DNA has never been specified by the defence. Thus, yesterday morning in court, when Manuela Comodi spoke of 1.4 nanograms of DNA adding "this quantity would be sufficient for a valid attribution?" the defence suddenly became alarmed: for the first time that piece of data came out, a fact that had not been made public during the seven months of the trial. Thus the defence (lawyer Giulia Bongiorno) asked for all the data and the tests carried out so far in order to be able to study them. So adjournment until September 14th which promises to still be heated.

Perugia

At the Court of the Assizes at the trial of the murder of MK there were still sealed documents. This was laboratory documentation which will only now being made available to the parties, after what happened yesterday morning at the trial of AK and RS. This was a decision made at the request of Sollecito's defence and seconded by that of Knox. It was a question raised by lawyer Giulia Bongiorno, one of the lawyers of the young man from Puglia, in the course of testimony by their consultant, the forensic expert Adriano Tagliabracci, an expert in forensic genetics.
He had argued about the incorrect interpretation of DNA found on the hook of MK's bra, in part attributed to RS and the "inevitable contamination" of the genetic material ("which has no wings but which can fly", he said, among other things). After a few questions by PM Manuela Comodi about the actual quantity of material considered sufficient for the correct attribution of DNA, Bongiorno asked for the file of the relative documentation, claiming that it had never been made available to the defence.
This request was not opposed to by PM Comodi. "We are only too pleased that this should happen", the magistrate said, explaining however that these were data "not normally made available". The PM further underlined that "all the tests were carried out according to the protocol of non-repeatable technical ascertainment (accertamento tecnico irripetibile) and always in the presence of the defence or their consultants.
The court then ruled that the documentation be lodged in chancellery by July 30th. The trial will reconvene however in mid-September. A new timetable for hearings was fixed and President Giancarlo Massei expressed the wish that the investigative debate would be finished by the beginning of October. At the end of the hearing PM Comodi stated that "certainly the data requested will be of further use in the prosection's domain". Bongiorno was of a different opinion. "We have had a trial in the dark, in the absence of elements
which are essential to us" she underlined.
Lawyer Luca Maori spoke about "data requested a year and a half ago, even in the preliminary hearings, but never provided".
"(there has been) no suppression of data because the forensic police in its report has always indicated levels of DNA high enough for testing" was the reply of lawyer Francesco Maresca who represents civil claimants, the Kercher family. After seven months of hearings the trial of AK and RS closes for the summer break. It will open again on September 14th for the final witnesses for the defence.


Last edited by Tiziano on Mon Jul 20, 2009 6:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline malcolm


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Location: Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 5:35 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Yummi wrote:
An article by genetist A. Tagliabracci (currently in Sollecito's defense experts team).
I pst it here, to observe that Tagliabraccia claims he can attribute DNA profiles with quantities as low as 25 picograms. He doesn't suggest to implement some amplification/attribution thechiques on quantities below 100 picograms.

1.4 nanograms is 1400 picograms! If the defense's explanation for the DNA on the clasp is now that it drifted through the air and deposited itself there (but not anywhere else), rather than arguing that it was contaminated in the lab (as they have with the knife) or that it was placed there by someone who touched it after touching something with Raffaelle's DNA, then they're going to lose the argument and the case, as that's way too much of a quantity to have flown there.

Back to the drawing board. ho-)
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Offline beans


Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:00 am

Posts: 220

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:11 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Hi bucket of tea. I thought it was a joke, but I wasn't sure--and I didn't want to be mistaken for a FOA-type. I wouldn't make much of a fashion consultant for anyone--I agonize over what to wear when we visit Italy--they're so stylish, and I'm so not...

Snape, I didn't expect you'd wear a flag pin, but I wouldn't count the Knoxes out in that respect. They seem to be totally clueless--spend a million on PR and lawyers but dress to offend! Wonder what Edda wears to teach if she thinks those low-cut numbers are appropriate courtroom attire?

On a more serious note, has anybody found anything on the cross-examination of the defense witnesses? All I've seen are things that imply that Tagliabracci, et al, have put a serious dent in the prosecutions claims (DNA floating on air, etc.). I'm sure that the prosecution has had rebuttals to much of the expert testimony but the media don't seem to feel it's necessary to print that side of the story.

beans
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Offline bucketoftea


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:57 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

So, no vacation for the beautiful biologist, she will have to provide a lot of data, about the activity of the lab in general and about the most important tests in particular. And when those data should be insufficient or if they shouldn't add up with the rest, the judge may erase from the trial some of the body of evidence: the DNA on the bra clasp and on the blade. Important ones?
* * * * *
The beautiful biologist will still enjoy her vacation. She will go back to the lab and pick up the relevant docs when required. Quality Control file and all. ;-) Dim swetio as they say in Welsh.
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Offline bucketoftea


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:40 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

:-D Beans :-D
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Offline FinnMacCool


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Yummi wrote:
An article by genetist A. Tagliabracci (currently in Sollecito's defense experts team).
I pst it here, to observe that Tagliabraccia claims he can attribute DNA profiles with quantities as low as 25 picograms. He doesn't suggest to implement some amplification/attribution thechiques on quantities below 100 picograms.


http://www.istitutoaffarisociali.it/flex/AppData/Redational/Ejournal/Articoli/Files/D.7e1010a4daa67d625c63/indagini_genetico_forensi.pdf

I quoted this as it could be useful to recall it further.
It might have a part in Comodi' "trick" (keeping secrets her data abut quantities).


VERY interesting. gb-)

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Hershon wrote:
And you think its protocol for someone to quote my entire blog post without providing a link to my Blog Site or at least to have asked me for permission? I'm not the bad guy here at all. It's one thing if he used a paragraph or 2 but he used the whole Post and didn't have the decency to provide a link to my Blog. I consider the matter closed and am not going to make an issue of it further but I'm not the person you should be criticizing.


Hi Hershon,
I don't think anyone needs to be criticizing anyone with regard to this matter. I'm sure many of us visited your blog thanks to Jools' post. It looks as if she fully appreciated your work.
Please feel welcome here and I hope you welcome new readers to your blog. I look forward to reading your other posts about this case and promise correct attribution if any mention is made.

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Offline Hershon


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

I'm not sure if anyone has written about it here, but in a comment to the latest Newsweek issue, someone advanced the idea which I had not heard previously that the 2 cell phones were turned off so they couldn't be pinged for their locations afterwards. I am surprised that this has not been widely discussed online- or maybe it has and I missed it. I wonder how the people who think Amanda and Rafe are innocent rebut that one? There are just too many coincidences in this case. I still want to know how smoking grass can give one total amnesia, particularly for a 14 hour police interrogation? My overall theory is that something happened accidentally that was not initially planned and deliberate and got totally out of hand and was compounded by lies over lies. From everything I've read, I can't see the Italian Courts finding them innocent. This is the one thing I particularly don't understand about the "Amanda is Innocent Crowd". They don't seem to grasp that no matter what they claim the people in the United States think or how bad they think the Italian Justice System is, that ultimately the Italian Jury can convict her.


Last edited by Hershon on Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 3:13 pm   Post subject: The Today Show   

Here's [urlx=http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/vp/32007333#32007333]THE TODAY SHOW VIDEO[/urlx] from this morning.

Well worth watching to hear Edda call "non Italian journalists tacky"!

Hershon,

I saw a link to your blog weeks ago over at Perugia Shock. In fact, I tried your "tips" for speeding up XP but alas, had to do a system restore as they didn't work for me.

Maybe you shouldn't be so quick to cast blame here?

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Offline Brogan


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 3:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Hershon

I found your blog by putting the introductary line into google.
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Offline indie


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 3:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Hershon wrote:
I consider it a dead issue but how could anyone know where my site was as Jules didn't bother to list it? That was what I was upset about. Anyway, that's past history.

I'm not sure if anyone has written about it here, but in a comment to the latest Newsweek issue, someone advanced the idea which I had not heard previously that the 2 cell phones were turned off so they couldn't be pinged for their locations afterwards. I am surprised that this has not been widely discussed online- or maybe it has and I missed it. I wonder how the people who think Amanda and Rafe are innocent rebut that one? There are just too many coincidences in this case. I still want to know how smoking grass can give one total amnesia, particularly for a 14 hour police interrogation? My overall theory is that something happened accidentally that was not initially planned and deliberate and got totally out of hand and was compounded by lies over lies. From everything I've read, I can't see the Italian Courts finding them innocent. This is the one thing I particularly don't understand about the "Amanda is Innocent Crowd". They don't seem to grasp that no matter what they claim the people in the United States think or how bad they think the Italian Justice System is, that ultimately the Italian Jury can convict her.


Hershon,
I had a chance to peruse your site for awhile and found you to be quite the blog entry machine. Knowing Jools, she meant no harm. Though the link perhaps was an oversight, no one ever took credit for your work. Welcome aboard and we love creative thinkers around here.

As for the phones being turned off, I believe many of us assumed the purpose was to avoid tracking. So yes this sort of adds to the element of a more sophisticated plan.
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 3:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Hershon wrote:
My overall theory is that something happened accidentally that was not initially planned and deliberate and got totally out of hand and was compounded by lies over lies.


Hi Hershon,

You're not the first person who has re-edited what happened to make it less cruel and more palatable.

Meredith was sexually assaulted. This cannot be possibly construed as an accident. She was tortured with a knife, which is a deliberate and sadistic act. Someone then plunged Sollecito's kitchen knife through her neck with such force it left a huge, gaping hole.

Preliminary judge Claudia Matteini noted the following:

"The homicide of Meredith was certainly not an impulsive act. On the contrary, all of the small wounds with the last fatal one demonstrate cold calculation within the context of pre-planned conduct, the characteristics of which are clear signs of perversion demonstrated by a 'strange' enjoyment of her suffering.

Meredith was a girl full of life and enthusiasm, who for the sole purpose of having some pleasure and sensation during a boring day spent smoking joints was subjected to acts of brutality and cruelty that are disgusting to any normal person."

Meredith's killers are not normal people who killed Meredith by accident. They are evil and/or psychologically disturbed.
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Offline malcolm


Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:26 am

Posts: 239

Location: Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

The Machine wrote:
You're not the first person who has re-edited what happened to make it less cruel and more palatable.

Meredith was sexually assaulted. This cannot be possibly construed as an accident. She was tortured with a knife, which is a deliberate and sadistic act. Someone then plunged Sollecito's kitchen knife through her neck with such force it left a huge, gaping hole.

Preliminary judge Claudia Matteini noted the following:

"The homicide of Meredith was certainly not an impulsive act. On the contrary, all of the small wounds with the last fatal one demonstrate cold calculation within the context of pre-planned conduct, the characteristics of which are clear signs of perversion demonstrated by a 'strange' enjoyment of her suffering.

Meredith was a girl full of life and enthusiasm, who for the sole purpose of having some pleasure and sensation during a boring day spent smoking joints was subjected to acts of brutality and cruelty that are disgusting to any normal person."

Meredith's killers are not normal people who killed Meredith by accident. They are evil and/or psychologically disturbed.

I have a hard time buying the idea that this was deliberate. Any friction between AK and MK was not serious enough for AK to want to kill her, and even then it's hard to see RS wanting to be involved in a murder, especially with a girl he just met a week or 2 earlier. OTOH, if they were planning to just sexually assault her and torture her with a knife, how could they possibly expect to get away with this if they didn't kill her?

Sexual assaults are not necessarily planned, and in any event the extent of the sexual violence seems to have been played up during the clean up.

Mind you, I still think they're guilty, but it seems more likely that it was something that wasn't intended to be criminal and got out of hand.
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Offline bucketoftea


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Machine, I'm still looking for a reason to believe.
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Offline bucketoftea


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Can anyone recall where the story about Amanda having once before planned a "prank" where someone was to be abducted or detained or something came from?
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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 5:01 pm   Post subject: Seattle Stranger   

bucketoftea wrote:
Can anyone recall where the story about Amanda having once before planned a "prank" where someone was to be abducted or detained or something came from?


Hi bucketoftea,

The comment was in the Seattle Stranger - here's a link to all the past articles. I can't remember which one it was. Knox wanted to play an April Fools Day prank on one of her dorm mates. She and some others donned ski masks and pretended they were going to assault the dorm mate.

[urlx=http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Search?cx=018412283168992679552%3Ayvxwdz723au&cof=FORID%3A9&q=amanda+knox#1375]SEATTLE STRANGER, AMANDA KNOX[/urlx]

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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 5:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

malcolm wrote:
Any friction between AK and MK was not serious enough for AK to want to kill her


You're assuming Amanda Knox is a normal, well-balanced individual. She is not.
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Offline DLW


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:41 pm

Posts: 623

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 5:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

The HBO series ‘True Blood”, has developed a following:

‘But it's that potential for death that gives vampires a lot of their sexual edge. "It's kind of like autoerotic asphyxia, except that's real," says Katherine Ramsland, professor of psychology at DeSales University. "In terms of fantasy, the vampire mystique is 90 percent sexual. It's a metaphor for dangerous sex.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/207128/page/1

Note: It doesn’t say what effects Manga comics have?
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Offline bucketoftea


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 5:47 pm   Post subject: Re: Seattle Stranger   

Tara wrote:
bucketoftea wrote:
Can anyone recall where the story about Amanda having once before planned a "prank" where someone was to be abducted or detained or something came from?


Hi bucketoftea,

The comment was in the Seattle Stranger - here's a link to all the past articles. I can't remember which one it was. Knox wanted to play an April Fools Day prank on one of her dorm mates. She and some others donned ski masks and pretended they were going to assault the dorm mate.

[urlx=http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Search?cx=018412283168992679552%3Ayvxwdz723au&cof=FORID%3A9&q=amanda+knox#1375]SEATTLE STRANGER, AMANDA KNOX[/urlx]


Thank you, Tara! I'll have a wander over there to read.I wonder what kind of relationship she had with that dorm mate. Passive-aggression bordering on aggression-aggression, disguised as a joke? *shudder*
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Offline disinterested


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 6:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

The Machine wrote:
Hershon wrote:
My overall theory is that something happened accidentally that was not initially planned and deliberate and got totally out of hand and was compounded by lies over lies.


Hi Hershon,

You're not the first person who has re-edited what happened to make it less cruel and more palatable.

Meredith was sexually assaulted. This cannot be possibly construed as an accident. She was tortured with a knife, which is a deliberate and sadistic act. Someone then plunged Sollecito's kitchen knife through her neck with such force it left a huge, gaping hole.

Preliminary judge Claudia Matteini noted the following:

"The homicide of Meredith was certainly not an impulsive act. On the contrary, all of the small wounds with the last fatal one demonstrate cold calculation within the context of pre-planned conduct, the characteristics of which are clear signs of perversion demonstrated by a 'strange' enjoyment of her suffering.

Meredith was a girl full of life and enthusiasm, who for the sole purpose of having some pleasure and sensation during a boring day spent smoking joints was subjected to acts of brutality and cruelty that are disgusting to any normal person."

Meredith's killers are not normal people who killed Meredith by accident. They are evil and/or psychologically disturbed.



Hi Machine,

I think we could have this discussion ad infinitum. I'm wondering why you are more attached to the "planned" murder scenario rather than the "sudden development" version. It seems that what we know of Amanda's history certainly supports some signs of pathology:

1) the wild party and aftermath
2) the ski mask prank
3) the machine gun photo
4) the "my people killed your people" comment
5) sexual impulsiveness; abandoning the internship

(and many more others could probably think of, including most importantly her betrayal of Patrick, although that's post-murder, so doesn't fit here...)

...but not anything full blown--nothing we would call pathology in someone if they didn't go so much farther, as Amanda did. So it seems to me more likely to say Meredith's murder was a "perfect storm" moment that got out of control. Except for the knife which we always come back to, as that suggests planning. But the fact that it was such "bad" planning argues against that--doing it at the cottage and so many other things.

Why, Machine, do you favor the planned version--because of the knife? It just seems so much harder to believe.

Didi
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Offline observer


Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:36 pm

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 6:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Quote:
Machine, I'm still looking for a reason to believe.


Google "narcissitic rage"
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2308

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

disinterested wrote:
Why, Machine, do you favor the planned version--because of the knife? It just seems so much harder to believe.Didi


Hi Didi,

I think that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito intended to harm or humiliate Meredith before they arrived at the cottage. Sollecito's kitchen knife was taken to the cottage with this purpose in mind. I can't exclude the possibility that Meredith murder was premeditated.

Some posters seem reluctant to believe that Meredith's murder could have been planned because they don't want to believe that two or three people are capable of such evil. However, such murders are nothing new:

Two teenage girls in Australia murdered their best friend because they "felt like it".

Four teenagers in Florida killed a tramp with sticks in 2005. They told the police they had done it "for fun".

Mary Anne Lenneghan was kidnapped, drugged, raped, tortured and murdered by six men in England in 2005. Her friend miraculously survived the attack.

Fred and Rosemary West tortured, raped and killed at least 12 young women.

In 1979 Janet Chandler was abducted and taken to a "party" where she was gang raped and murdered. By late 2007, six people, including her roommate, Laurie Ann Swank, had been convicted of murder.
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Offline Hershon


Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:01 am

Posts: 42

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:25 pm   Post subject: Why I Cant See it Premeditated Murder From these 2 Doofuses   

I think almost everyone on this board will agree whether they think the "Dynamic Duo" are guilty or not, that they are both two of the stupidest brain dead people in the world. It's for that reason I can't imagine them actually planning to cause actual physical harm and/or murder. There's nothing in their history of any violence that I'm aware of and they couldn't possibly figure out how they were going to escape the long arm of the law by planning what happened. As an aside, I don't find Amanda Knox particularly "Foxy"/Hot

Basically, everything that has come out of Amanda Knox's mouth is preposterous. As I think someone posted here, she's in her own world of non-reality which she probably got from her family based on their words and actions ( I find her mother thinking she's a great kid after supposedly having sex with 7 different men in the short time she was in Italy and getting high regularly, absurd). The only thing that makes any sense to me is a vicious prank that got seriously out of control.

Can someone please post an actual Link or detail the April 1 College incident I keep hearing people mention but haven't found any details online.


Last edited by Hershon on Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Hershon wrote:
Can someone please post an actual Link or detail the April 1 College incident I keep hearing people mention but haven't found any details online.



Knox once got a bunch of her friends to dress up in ski masks and break into her apartment and assault her roomates as an "april fools" joke. She's guilty and fucking nuts.

Posted by Joh | December 2, 2007 2:50 PM



THE STRANGER (Comment # 15)

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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:51 pm   Post subject: Re: Why I Cant See it Premeditated Murder From these 2 Doofuses   

Hershon wrote:
I think almost everyone on this board will agree whether they think the "Dynamic Duo" are guilty or not, that they are both two of the stupidest brain dead people in the world.


The people who think they are innocent aren't exactly rocket scientists. :D
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Offline Shirley


Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:48 pm

Posts: 376

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:00 pm   Post subject: Re: Why I Cant See it Premeditated Murder From these 2 Doofuses   

The Machine wrote:
Hershon wrote:
I think almost everyone on this board will agree whether they think the "Dynamic Duo" are guilty or not, that they are both two of the stupidest brain dead people in the world.


The people who think they are innocent aren't exactly rocket scientists. :D


But, judging by their break-in theories, they might be rock scientists.
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Offline bucketoftea


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

LOL @ you, Shirley.

* * * *
It's really important to remember that the only source for the April Fool prank is an anonymous commenter.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

bucketoftea wrote:
LOL @ you, Shirley.

* * * *
It's really important to remember that the only source for the April Fool prank is an anonymous commenter.



Not quite so anonymous, we were in contact with him.

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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Hershon wrote:

“If you are going to quote my blog in its entirety which I don't appreciate and you don't have permission to do- did you ever here of the word copyright infringement, then you should at least provide a link to the Blog which you didn't. I don't appreciate your actions one damn bit.”

Hi Hershon,

I’m sorry if you got upset about me not mentioning the site where I read your article?

Had I linked the site where I read the article, the people perusing this forum would have seen a Zimbio site and your article in its ‘full glory’ there.

Had I realized I had to seek permission I would have asked Zimbio.com.

Doubt very much anybody after reading the funny article by blogger Hershon2000 at Zimbio.com under Amanda Knox articles, would’ve click further on to your own blog! Especially as it’s name (gifts&freeadvise.com features a ‘Free Amanda’ T-shirt) suggest to be a commercial site where one could purchase those shirts, and to be honest why would they click on the gifts site once they were done reading your funny article on its entirety at Zimbio?

So, don’t be so upset, be happy that your complaint to the board about me not asking you (?) for permission... gave your a good chance for a lot of people who read this forum to check your blog!

cu-))
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Offline cyyates


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

To those consistantly harping on the family of AK.........consider letting it go would you?

Amanda did this, not her family. Her family is by no means the largest victim of this crime, but they are victims. Those closest to the defendant are blinded by unconditional love. For Amanda to declare innocense, this means lying to her family as well, keeping up her image to her parents.

They have some hard times coming up when / if Amanda (hopefully when) gets convicted. They do not deserve criticism any more than MK's family.

Am I wrong in this?
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Offline bucketoftea


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:29 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Does that mean you're convinced it has substance? (IMO it fits)
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

bucketoftea wrote:
Does that mean you're convinced it has substance? (IMO it fits)


I think there's definitely something there. I'll let Skep give the details, as he was her contact.

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Offline bucketoftea


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Thank you. And Happy Moon Day, everyone.
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Offline Hershon


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:45 pm   Post subject: Her Family Sorry They're Not Off Limits I THink They're Idio   

Sorry, in my family if I was guilty of murder, my family wouldn't lie about it or act as outrageous/clueless as they are. If anything, they've made her situation worse and have put the final touches on her conviction. From my American viewpoint, they've totally insulted Italy and Italians by their PR campaign in the United States which makes no sense to me- She's on trial in Italy and if the 6(?) Italians on the jury decide she's guilty and every single American thinks she's innocent, guest what she's still guilty and going to prison. Gazooks! They should have run their PR campaign in Italy and not be negative about Italians. Then her equally brain dead sisters pose next to the House Meredith was murdered. I'm sure that will help Amanda's image. Then they show up in court in shorts like they're going to a lawn party. Bottom line is they are going to be a negative impact on her verdict. That's why I mention them and won't stop. Based on their actions, I can see how Amanda grew up to be the Brain Dead Person she is.
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Offline Hershon


Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:01 am

Posts: 42

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:50 pm   Post subject: Jools An Appology   

I totally appologize. I assumed that you somehow were on my site via Google or Twitter or Digg and am not quite sure how it went to Zimbio- there's actually a link inside the summary there but that's beside the point- I overreacted please accept my appology, I was totally wrong. I think I deleted the offending posts here.


Last edited by Hershon on Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline cyyates


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:05 pm   Post subject: Re: Her Family Sorry They're Not Off Limits I THink They're Idio   

Hershon wrote:
Sorry, in my family if I was guilty of murder, my family wouldn't lie about it or act as outrageous/clueless as they are. If anything, they've made her situation worse and have put the final touches on her conviction. From my American viewpoint, they've totally insulted Italy and Italians by their PR campaign in the United States which makes no sense to me- She's on trial in Italy and if the 6(?) Italians on the jury decide she's guilty and every single American thinks she's innocent, guest what she's still guilty and going to prison. Gazooks! They should have run their PR campaign in Italy and not be negative about Italians. Then her equally brain dead sisters pose next to the House Meredith was murdered. I'm sure that will help Amanda's image. Then they show up in court in shorts like they're going to a lawn party. Bottom line is they are going to be a negative impact on her verdict. That's why I mention them and won't stop. Based on their actions, I can see how Amanda grew up to be the Brain Dead Person she is.


Yes...yes! Tacky they are! I am not arguing that at all! They should by all means respect the Italian court system and it's dress codes.

The picture in front of the cottage: horrible.

Lack of tact does not make your kid a murderer. That's my only point. I also don't believe that her family is lying for AK. Do you?? AK has her family brainwashed. YOUR family may be perfect, but that's YOUR family. Some people unconsciously choose to believe what they want to believe. It's a fact!

Making fun of her family, of which did not commit the crime, isn't going to make AK any more guilty. It's just stooping down to a low level by making fun of people NOT LIKE THE NORMAL people in the world. Someone made fun of Edda's large arms. My point: tacky. I am interested in reading about the case, not opinions of people not involved in the murder. Maybe I'm alone in that?
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:13 pm   Post subject: Re: Jools An Appology   

Hershon wrote:
I totally appologize. I assumed that you somehow were on my site via Google or Twitter or Digg and am not quite sure how it went to Zimbio- could you let me know the link if you have time. Again, my apologies, I was totally wrong. I'll see if there is a way to delete those posts- I'm new here so I'm a bit clueless.


Hi Hershon. It is a protocol on PMF that everyone give attribution and link when quoting anything, even if only a reader's comment off of another blog or news site or even another comment from elsewhere on PMF. It's one rule I've never had to enforce since members always do so naturally and slips are very rare. Therefore, when Jools didn't link to her source for your blog piece I assumed there was a good reason for her not doing so. It seems that was indeed the case.

Well, if you really want certain posts deleted, simply let me know which ones and I'll take care of it. Unfortunately, members have only 24 hrs to edit or delete a post they've made, so anything after that period a Moderator has to take care of it. I 'generally' don't like to delete posts, especially if they are posts other members have responded to, as then you are left with various posts making reference to phantom posts that no longer exist and that can make a thread confusing. However, I'll be happy to in this case since the posts in question and their responses are off-topic anyway.

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Offline Hershon


Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:01 am

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:17 pm   Post subject: Cyyates Family Agree With Most of What Your Saying to Me   

I agree with most of what you wrote in your post to me. I also don't think her family is lying for her but they're deliberately avoiding the facts and her actions. As for guilt, her families behavior in my opinion is making the Italians think she's definitely guilty. They kind of remind me of that old US TV SHow, The Beverly Hillbillies. I have never seen such a whacked out College Educated Family like the Knox's. I'm sorry that's not a nice thing to say but they're in left field looking at right!
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

cyyates wrote:
To those consistantly harping on the family of AK.........consider letting it go would you?

Amanda did this, not her family. Her family is by no means the largest victim of this crime, but they are victims. Those closest to the defendant are blinded by unconditional love. For Amanda to declare innocense, this means lying to her family as well, keeping up her image to her parents.

They have some hard times coming up when / if Amanda (hopefully when) gets convicted. They do not deserve criticism any more than MK's family.

Am I wrong in this?


I have a number of valid criticism of Amanda Knox's family:

Curt Knox and Edda Mellas haven't contacted Meredith's family to pass on their condolences.

Curt and Edda have misinformed the public about the case. For example, repeatedly telling journalists that the DNA on the double knife could belong to half the population of Italy or Amanda Knox only lied once.

Edda didn't tell Amanda Knox to tell the truth, but told her to revert to her alibi that she and Raffaele Sollecito were together at his apartment all night. The truth is important, not the most convenient story.

Curt and Edda gave interviews to several journalists who wrote articles about the case. These journalists made the same claim that there was no evidence that Meredith was sexually assaulted. The claim that Meredith wasn’t sexually assaulted is not only untrue, it’s deeply offensive to Meredith and her poor family. Curt and Edda must have told the journalists that there was no evidence of sexual violence. Judge Michael Heavey, who is a friend of Curt and Edda, also made this offensive claim.

Curt and Edda hired David Marriott's PR firm. The PR campaign has been aggressive and dishonest. There has been a deliberate attempt to mislead and manipulate the general public. Journalists who don't toe the official FOA party line have been bullied and intimidated. Charles Mudede complained specifically about David Marriott's conduct. Curt and Edda are ultimately responsible for this PR campaign.

Curt and Edda are using the PR campaign in an attempt to interfere with the judicial process in another sovereign country. This is a murder trial, not Big Brother where the public gets to decide whether Amanda Knox stays in the big house or not.

The Seattle Post-Intelligencer suspended all comments about the case. Its readers are being denied the freedom of speech. Who is behind the Seattle Post-Intelligencer's decision to suspend all comments? I have reason to believe that Curt and Edda put pressure on the editors via the FOA.

Numerous posters were banned from commenting on Candace Dempsey's reader's blog for daring to think Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito might be guilty. Many of Finn's comments have been deleted recently after he stated that he thought Knox and Sollecito were involved in Meredith's murder. As we now know Candace Dempsey has a relationship with Edda Mellas.
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Offline bucketoftea


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

I pity her parents, I really do. Curt in particular looks like he's in hell. Motivated by love and feelings of guilt and fear and grief, no doubt. (I'm not saying they're guilty of anything, but those feelings would be perfectly natural). It's the lying that gets to me. Broadcast worldwide.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:29 pm   Post subject: Re: Her Family Sorry They're Not Off Limits I THink They're Idio   

cyyates wrote:
Hershon wrote:
Sorry, in my family if I was guilty of murder, my family wouldn't lie about it or act as outrageous/clueless as they are. If anything, they've made her situation worse and have put the final touches on her conviction. From my American viewpoint, they've totally insulted Italy and Italians by their PR campaign in the United States which makes no sense to me- She's on trial in Italy and if the 6(?) Italians on the jury decide she's guilty and every single American thinks she's innocent, guest what she's still guilty and going to prison. Gazooks! They should have run their PR campaign in Italy and not be negative about Italians. Then her equally brain dead sisters pose next to the House Meredith was murdered. I'm sure that will help Amanda's image. Then they show up in court in shorts like they're going to a lawn party. Bottom line is they are going to be a negative impact on her verdict. That's why I mention them and won't stop. Based on their actions, I can see how Amanda grew up to be the Brain Dead Person she is.


Yes...yes! Tacky they are! I am not arguing that at all! They should by all means respect the Italian court system and it's dress codes.

The picture in front of the cottage: horrible.

Lack of tact does not make your kid a murderer. That's my only point. I also don't believe that her family is lying for AK. Do you?? AK has her family brainwashed. YOUR family may be perfect, but that's YOUR family. Some people unconsciously choose to believe what they want to believe. It's a fact!

Making fun of her family, of which did not commit the crime, isn't going to make AK any more guilty. It's just stooping down to a low level by making fun of people NOT LIKE THE NORMAL people in the world. Someone made fun of Edda's large arms. My point: tacky. I am interested in reading about the case, not opinions of people not involved in the murder. Maybe I'm alone in that?


Cyyates, it isn't about making fun of her family, rather it's valid criticism. The Knox/Mellas family have not simply limited themselves to speaking up for their daughter and proclaiming her innocence and that would be quite acceptable and understandable, as you noted in an earlier post. The problem is they've gone much further then that. Firstly, they have gone about it in a manner that displays a totally callous disregard to the victim in this terrible tragedy, Meredith Kercher and her family. Their conduct, in trying to usurp Meredith's place as the true victim in this case with Amanda Knox makes Meredith a victim for a second time and that is unforgivable. Moreover, they have gone as far as they possibly can to placing all the responsibility of what happened to Meredith on the shoulders of Rudy Guede, telling numerous lies to the public in the process. This is not only dishonest, it's unjust. Not content with this, they have gone out of their way to slur, harrass and attack anyone they conceive to be their enemies. Their smearing of Prosecutor Mignini has been simply jawdropping in it's audacity and cruelty. They have actually sought to undermine and subvert the legal process in Italy. They have harrassed and threatened journalists that choose to take an independent view and their personal attacks on bloggers and commenters on this case that believe Amanda has questions to answer have been of a level that is simply appalling. You are aware that my co-Administrator Skep has actually had to file a police complaint against them? At least two other PMF members are considering following suit. When you have people threatening you, posting private details about you and your family online in order to intimmidate you into silence, when you have them claiming they are following you to your local store and then actually to your house afterwards, there is no excuse in the world for that!

I can actually think of no precedents where any family has behaved in this way. If they are victims, they are victims doing their best to make as many other victims as they possibly can. In my mind, that makes them victims no longer.

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Offline disinterested


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:35 pm   Post subject: Knox family tacky, etc.   

I think Machine gave lots of good reasons why we might have a low opinion of Amanda's family, but what I think cyyates is saying is that, Yes they may be tacky, but no, that doesn't mean we should be tacky in return by making personal insults, etc., about them. That just puts us among those types on Frank's site and some of the Foakers (although they tend more to be fantasist conspiracy theorists and deniers of reality than obscene, raging ***holes). It's a probably a bit childish to get really personal in our put downs, but OK I think to vent about their idiotic behavior.

Didi
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:42 pm   Post subject: Re: Knox family tacky, etc.   

disinterested wrote:
I think Machine gave lots of good reasons why we might have a low opinion of Amanda's family, but what I think cyyates is saying is that, Yes they may be tacky, but no, that doesn't mean we should be tacky in return by making personal insults, etc., about them. That just puts us among those types on Frank's site and some of the Foakers (although they tend more to be fantasist conspiracy theorists and deniers of reality than obscene, raging ***holes). It's a probably a bit childish to get really personal in our put downs, but OK I think to vent about they're idiotic behavior.


Didi, on that point I fully agree and indeed Skep and I adopted that principle as policy when we were back on the TCWMB (and it holds to this day). Indeed, the adoption of that policy was a catalyst for a rift on the TCWMB that began a chain of events that led us to being here in our present form as PMF.

There is a line between criticism and gratuitous abuse. Skep and I endeavour to prevent that line being crossed. However, there may always be the odd post that may upset some people, since the line is arbitrary and people will have different views on where it actually lies.

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Offline indie


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 11:18 pm   Post subject: Knox Family   

My problem with Edda is she has left no room for Amanda to tell the truth. If I were Edda, I would make sure my daughter knew that I would still love her even if she murdered Meredith. IMO Edda has left Amanda no options but to continue playing the poor American angel face girl being railroaded by the Italian justice system. I mean, how can Amanda tell the truth now with the amount of money and public face her family has put forward on her behalf? I hope someday some new evidence somehow surfaces that clearly takes her mom out of this delusional state. I think the truth would actually help the Knox family. They could then stop this charade and could focus on the other children and their needs while supporting Amanda through her prison sentence.

If I were a journalist I would ask Edda, "Could you still love Amanda if she told you she took part in Meredith's murder?" Could you Edda?
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Offline disinterested


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 11:59 pm   Post subject: Re: Knox Family   

indie wrote:
My problem with Edda is she has left no room for Amanda to tell the truth. If I were Edda, I would make sure my daughter knew that I would still love her even if she murdered Meredith. IMO Edda has left Amanda no options but to continue playing the poor American angel face girl being railroaded by the Italian justice system. I mean, how can Amanda tell the truth now with the amount of money and public face her family has put forward on her behalf? I hope someday some new evidence somehow surfaces that clearly takes her mom out of this delusional state. I think the truth would actually help the Knox family. They could then stop this charade and could focus on the other children and their needs while supporting Amanda through her prison sentence.

If I were a journalist I would ask Edda, "Could you still love Amanda if she told you she took part in Meredith's murder?" Could you Edda?



Whew, I just cannot begin to imagine how all that duplicity plays out among them, not to mention between Amanda and Raffaele who are now flirting in court with candies and smiles. Cyyates above said something about "unconscientious" in regard to the parents' "you must be innocent because we love you" position on Amanda and I wondered if that was a typo and Cyyates meant actually "unconscious"--because there's a tremendous difference between the two possibilities. Are they just unconscious of what they're doing--or are they unconscientious, meaning dishonest? I'd hate to have to keep that game up. Talk about stress.
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Offline Hershon


Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:01 am

Posts: 42

PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:12 am   Post subject: What is the Point of US PR Campaign to Disparage Italians?   

I wrote a separate Blog on this and I simply don't get it. Maybe someone can explain it to me. The US can't even get a kidnapped American Child out of Brazil (Google David Goldman) for over 5 years and what exactly do the Knox's think is going to happen by disparaging Italians and the Italian Court System in the United States led by their lackys, CBS? It's just going to naturally piss off Italians, the Court and jury more. They think that's going to help Amanda? Ma and Pa Clampett should have just hired a good lawyer in Italy and launched a positive campaign in Italy. I think when the movie with Jenna Fisher gets made, lol, and they follow the actual play by play of this tragic farce, the Amanda Supporters are going to feel awfully stupid seeing the brain dead actions of their heroine.
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:20 am   Post subject: Re: Jools An Appology   

Michael wrote:
Hershon wrote:
I totally appologize. I assumed that you somehow were on my site via Google or Twitter or Digg and am not quite sure how it went to Zimbio- could you let me know the link if you have time. Again, my apologies, I was totally wrong. I'll see if there is a way to delete those posts- I'm new here so I'm a bit clueless.


Hi Hershon. It is a protocol on PMF that everyone give attribution and link when quoting anything, even if only a reader's comment off of another blog or news site or even another comment from elsewhere on PMF. It's one rule I've never had to enforce since members always do so naturally and slips are very rare. Therefore, when Jools didn't link to her source for your blog piece I assumed there was a good reason for her not doing so. It seems that was indeed the case.

Well, if you really want certain posts deleted, simply let me know which ones and I'll take care of it. Unfortunately, members have only 24 hrs to edit or delete a post they've made, so anything after that period a Moderator has to take care of it. I 'generally' don't like to delete posts, especially if they are posts other members have responded to, as then you are left with various posts making reference to phantom posts that no longer exist and that can make a thread confusing. However, I'll be happy to in this case since the posts in question and their responses are off-topic anyway.


Hi again Hershon,

Don't worry about it!

Funny that you don't know about Zimbio, all your articles seem to be up on that site. There is even a profile of yourself presumably created by you?

Link to Zimbio articles:
http://www.zimbio.com/Amanda+Knox/articles

Link to (your ?) Hershon2000 profile:
http://www.zimbio.com/member/Hershon2000

Michael- Personally I don't think there is a need to delete the posts, please don't 'cook' the board. :lol:
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Offline disinterested


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:37 am   Post subject: Re: What is the Point of US PR Campaign to Disparage Italians?   

Hershon wrote:
I wrote a separate Blog on this and I simply don't get it. Maybe someone can explain it to me. The US can't even get a kidnapped American Child out of Brazil (Google David Goldman) for over 5 years and what exactly do the Knox's think is going to happen by disparaging Italians and the Italian Court System in the United States led by their lackys, CBS? It's just going to naturally piss off Italians, the Court and jury more. They think that's going to help Amanda? Ma and Pa Clampett should have just hired a good lawyer in Italy and launched a positive campaign in Italy. I think when the movie with Jenna Fisher gets made, lol, and they follow the actual play by play of this tragic farce, the Amanda Supporters are going to feel awfully stupid seeing the brain dead actions of their heroine.



Hey Hershon, now I've gone over to check out your blogging on Zimbio and want to express my gratitude for providing more offerings to my desperate search for reading material. And how long has it been since I saw that old 60's slogan
"Fighting for Peace is like F ing for Chastity!"--now aptly applied to the Knox family's misguided American PR campaign.

Plus the fact that you've inadvertently wandered into our camp. The Internet is a beautiful thing.
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Offline diana


Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:44 am

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:43 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Machine:
I read this forum alot and don't post much. Sometimes I forget everything that I want to ask. Some time back on this forum and the above reference to vampires often tying to sexual fantasy is what jogged my memory. Wasn't there some discussion about freemasonry and AK and MK being a part of this?
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Offline martin


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:28 pm

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:52 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

diana wrote:
Machine:
I read this forum alot and don't post much. Sometimes I forget everything that I want to ask. Some time back on this forum and the above reference to vampires often tying to sexual fantasy is what jogged my memory. Wasn't there some discussion about freemasonry and AK and MK being a part of this?

Ohh please, diana, not another conspiracy theory!
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2308

PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:52 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

There is a summary of the DNA and forensic evidence on TJMK:

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php
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Offline martin


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:28 pm

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:59 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Hi,
does anyone know if all 3 (armstrong, aldrin, collins) are
still alive?
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2308

PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 1:01 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

diana wrote:
Machine:
I read this forum alot and don't post much. Sometimes I forget everything that I want to ask. Some time back on this forum and the above reference to vampires often tying to sexual fantasy is what jogged my memory. Wasn't there some discussion about freemasonry and AK and MK being a part of this?


Hi Diana,

I haven't read or heard anything about Amanda Knox and Meredith Kercher being Freemasons.
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Offline martin


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:28 pm

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 1:01 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

The Machine wrote:
There is a summary of the DNA and forensic evidence on TJMK:

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php

Hi Machine,
how are you?
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2308

PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 1:09 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

martin wrote:
The Machine wrote:
There is a summary of the DNA and forensic evidence on TJMK:

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php

Hi Machine,
how are you?


Hi Martin,

I'm fine. I hope you are too.
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Offline martin


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:28 pm

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 1:17 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

The Machine wrote:
malcolm wrote:
Any friction between AK and MK was not serious enough for AK to want to kill her


You're assuming Amanda Knox is a normal, well-balanced individual. She is not.

Machine, how can we be so sure about her state of mind?
After all, it was rs who read all these perverted manga
rape books and who always carried a knife with him.
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Offline jfk1191


Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:46 am

Posts: 286

PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 1:41 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Michael wrote:
jfk1191 wrote:
Michael wrote:
JK wrote:
Does anyone know if it's against the law to leak all this info., in a case like this?


Not at the trial stage. Once it reaches trial the legal teams for either the prosecution, defence or the victims can release whatever data to the press or public they want.

The only exceptions to would be any specific aspects a judge has ordered cannot be released, if there are any.



No, Judge Claudia Matteini released details of the interrogation in her hearing report on 9 Nov. Judges reports have to be made public, it's one of the checks and balances.

As for the jury, I doubt they go online and read the Daily Mail. But I see little problem with that anyway. The jury, or more aptly "Lay Judges" have complete access to the whole case file , every shred of evidence regarding the case. Therefore, there's nothing the press can tell them they don't already know. Anything that is in the press and is false, the judges will also know.

Indeed, the prosecution hasn't been 'leaking' very much at all, if anything. When they have, Mignini responded robustly and dealt with it. That is why Lalli was sacked from the case. Of course, the prosecution can't win in some peoples minds. If they sack people for leaking it's twisted against them and claimed they sacked them because they disagreed with the prosecution line.



yes, thats some peace of mind, in the second paragraph. thank goodness for that!

I came across a interrogation media release Nov 7, 2007. Before Judge Matteini report the Nov 9th...
(not sure anymore if one is supposed to place links anywhere? yikes!)

yea...Dr. Lalli...his autopsy is what put the "multiple attackers" in the news.

I agree its the same on both sides, if "they" do or say anything the opposition will use it against them.

After all this time, I imagine the jurors mind's are already made up.

Machine, the surveilence comment was about the prison video taping and audio, of AManda and her mom.
I still find it really odd it is so simple to video tape everything these days the interrogations were not filmed.
It would have avoided a lot of controversy. I believe it was not video taped intentionally, which makes the "scene" suspicious.

what its worth in court, if Amanda was telling the truth? probably not worth anything other than the Patrick slander charge....which is nothing compared to charge A.

the media is really a different event, as I've never noticed before in a murder trial. so many contradicting articles.

its great to be remembered, the jurors get to see everything first hand.
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2308

PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 1:42 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

martin wrote:
Machine, how can we be so sure about her state of mind?
After all, it was rs who read all these perverted manga
rape books and who always carried a knife with him.


Hi Martin,

I think it's quite clear that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito have serious psychological defects. Numerous witnesses testified about their bizarre and inappropriate behaviour at the trial. One of the witnesses, Amy Frost, specifically said that she thought Amanda Knox was "crazy".

Knox and Sollecito started kissing each other moments after Meredith's body was discovered. They were French kisisng each other at the police station whilst everyone else was crying and comforting each other. This behavior is the exact opposite of what you would expect in the circumstances.

Knox's behaviour on 5 November was particularly erratic. One moment she was doing the splits and cartwheels, and the next she was hitting herself repeatedly on the head, having shaking fits, crying and shouting out. If you read her bizarre writings from this evening, you'll see that she rambles and refers to herself in the third person. There is something distinctly childlike about the content and the accompanying cartoon pictures. She is more concerned about her American boyfriend than Sollecito. She seemed completely disconnected from reality.

A number of judges who have been involved in the case have referred to Knox's and Sollecito's mental instability and refused them bail on the grounds that they were both dangerous and could reoffend.
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Offline martin


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:28 pm

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 1:57 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

The Machine wrote:
martin wrote:
The Machine wrote:
malcolm wrote:
Any friction between AK and MK was not serious enough for AK to want to kill her


You're assuming Amanda Knox is a normal, well-balanced individual. She is not.

Machine, how can we be so sure about her state of mind?
After all, it was rs who read all these perverted manga
rape books and who always carried a knife with him.


Hi Martin,

I think it's quite clear that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito have serious psychological defects. Numerous witnesses testified about their bizarre and inappropriate behaviour at the trial. One of the witnesses, Amy Frost, specifically said that she thought Amanda Knox was "crazy".

Knox and Sollecito started kissing each other moments after Meredith's body was discovered. They were French kisisng each other at the police station whilst everyone else was crying and comforting each other. This behavior is the exact opposite of what you would expect in the circumstances.

Knox's behaviour on 5 November was particularly erratic. One moment she was doing the splits and cartwheels, and the next she was hitting herself repeatedly on the head, having shaking fits, crying and shouting out. If you read her bizarre writings from this evening, you'll see that she rambles and refers to herself in the third person. There is something distinctly childlike about the content and the accompanying cartoon pictures. She is more concerned about her American boyfriend than Sollecito. She seemed completely disconnected from reality.

A number of judges who have been involved in the case have referred to Knox's and Sollecito's mental instability and refused them bail on the grounds that they were both dangerous and could reoffend.

Hello again Machine,
Of course, her behaviour on 5 november was very "unusual",
but maybe this was caused by stress (she might have known
that the police was closing in on her) or maybe other drugs then pot "diconnected her from reality", or maybe she
didn't want to remember what happened in the night of
november 1st? Finn wrote me once that she has already been
examined by a psychologist/psychiatrist - do you now anything about this examination?
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2308

PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:02 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

martin wrote:
Finn wrote me once that she has already been
examined by a psychologist/psychiatrist - do you now anything about this examination?


All that I know is that Knox, Sollecito and Guede were seen by a psychologist when they were in prison.
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Offline Hershon


Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:01 am

Posts: 42

PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:25 am   Post subject: Jools: Zimbio, & How I Found This Forum & The Machine   

I signed onto Zimbio for something months ago and totally forgot about them till now. As I can't see any harm in therm picking up my blogs, when you click the shortened URl of my blog there it does land you on the actual blog spot, I don't see any harm so I'm leaving it there till now.

I actually found this blog through TrueJustice.Org, there was a link I clicked on in the comments section by Peter on the article "Cannabis Effects And Meredith’s Mobile Phone".

One of the articles I did, one of the few where I posted someone elses blog-actually I combined and slightly edited 2 great articles with permission from TrueJustice.org to reprint and make 1 was by the Machine (Who's credited) See the Full Blog Piece Below:

www.giftsandfreeadvice.com/free_advice/ ... own-words/

Murder Suspect Amanda Knox Raffaele Sollecito Betrayed by Own Words

The following article tearing apart Meredith Kercher murder suspects Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito attributed statements is reprinted by permission from TrueJustice.org, a website devoted to True Justice for Meredith Kutcher. These were originally 2 separate articles written by “The Machine”, which I have combined into one single Blog Post with no editing on the original articles. Many of these points should have been mentioned and discussed during CBS “48 Hours” ridiculously one sided April 14, 2009 report which I hope CBS fully investigates on how they allowed this report to be broadcast. I will never trust CBS again. I don’t have a problem with the fact that CBS doesn’t think Amanda Knox is guilty but with the fact that CBS seemed to ignore, minimize or distort many things involved with this case that they could have found online if they had used better journalistic standards in my opinion.

Amanda Knox Trapped In Her Own Words by “The Machine”

Newcomers to the case and casual readers may not realize this.

But it is really an indisputable fact that Amanda Knox has spun the truth. Deliberately, repeatedly, and very incriminatingly.

I think it’s worth revisiting her many falsehoods for any new visitors to this board, so that they can get a clearer picture of the real strength of the case.

Some of Amanda’s vociferous supporters have claimed that Amanda only lied once - and that was because she was “smacked around” by the police, or put under pressure.

And that her confessions, in which she admitted to being at the cottage on the night of the murder, were thrown out by the Italian Supreme Court.

It doesn’t take a careful examination of the known facts to conclude that both these claims really are nonsense.

Amanda’s first known lie wasn’t to the police, but to her flatmate, Filomena, on 2 November, the day after Meredith’s murder.

Amanda phoned Filomena at 12.08 pm, and said she was worried about the front door being open and blood stains in the small bathroom.

Lie one. Amanda said she was going to call Raffaele, but according to Raffaele, Amanda had already returned to his apartment at 11.30 am, and then they had gone back to the cottage.

At 12.34 pm Amanda and Filomena spoke again. Filomena said, “We spoke to each other for the third time and she told me that the window in my room was broken and that my room was in a mess. At this point I asked her to call the police and she told me that she already had.”

Lie two. Amanda and Raffaele didn’t actually call the police until 12.51 pm.

The postal postal police unexpectedly turned up at the cottage at 12. 35 pm.

Lie three. Amanda and Raffael told the police that they had called the police and were waiting for them.

Lie four. Amanda told the postal police that Meredith always kept her door locked. Filomena strongly disagreed with her, and told the postal police the opposite was true.

Amanda and Raffaele were then taken in for questioning.

Lie five. They said they couldn’t remember most of what happened on the night of the murder, because they had smoked cannabis.

It is medically impossible for cannabis to cause such dramatic amnesia and there are no studies that have ever demonstrated that this is possible.

Long term use of cannabis may affect short term memory, which means that users might have difficulty recalling a telephone number. But it won’t wipe out whole chunks of an evening from their memory banks.

Lie six. Amanda accused Diya Lumumba of murdering Meredith at the cottage.

It’s true that two of Amanda’s such statements were thrown out by the Italian Supreme Court. However, Amanda repeated the accusation, in a note that she wrote to the police on 6 November.

This note was not thrown out by the Italian Supreme Court, and it was admitted as evidence.

Lies seven and eight. In her 6 November note Amanda claimed to have seen Diya Lumumba at the basketball court at Piazza Grimana; and outside her front door. He was actually at his bar.

Line nine. Amanda’s supporters claim that she confessed to a lesser role in Meredith’s murder, and blamed Diya Lumumba, because she had been “smacked around” or put under pressure by the police.

But the real reason she had to say she was at the cottage was because she was informed that Raffaele Sollecito was no longer providing her with an alibi.

Raffaele had been confronted with phone records, and was now claiming that she was not with him the whole evening, and that she had only returned at 1.00 am. Amanda did not attempt to refute Raffaele’s claim, but now admitted that she had been at the cottage.

The significance of this about-turn cannot be stressed enough.

(Incidentally, Raffaele was also claiming that he had lied, because he had believed Amanda’s version of what happened and not thought about the inconsistencies. He is acknowledging that Amanda’s version had inconsistencies.)

If it had been true that Amanda had been “smacked around” by the police during questioning, why haven’t her lawyers ever filed a complaint? It was very telling that Amanda dropped her allegation of being hit by the police at her recent court hearing, and instead just claimed she had been put under pressure.

There’s a world of difference between police brutality and being put under pressure. It wasn’t the first time that Amanda has made a false and malicious accusation, as Diya Lumumba knows only too well.

Lie ten. Amanda claimed to have slept in at Raffaele’s until the next morning. However, her mobile records show that this was not so. Amanda turned on her mobile at approximately at 5.32 am.

The only plausible explanation for Amanda’s deliberate and repeated lies? That she was involved in the murder of Meredith Kercher.

It should be no surprise to anyone following the case that the same three witnesses who have repeatedly lied, Amanda Knox, Raffaele Sollecito and Rudy Guede, have all been placed at the crime scene.

When the prosecutors present the forensic evidence, the defence lawyers will do their level best to try and muddy the waters, by claiming that much of the damning forensic evidence is due to contamination.

Well, good luck with that one. There is a FAR greater danger for them lurking…

Raffaele Sollecito Trapped In His Own Words by “The Machine”

We have already described above how Amanda Knox has boxed herself in with her own words.

Raffaele Sollecito has done precisely the same. Sollecito has also said things that are demonstrably untrue, and they now seriously haunt him and his team.

There is no question that Raffaele Sollecito has deliberately and repeatedly lied. He even himself admitted that he told the police “un sacco di cazzate” (a load of rubbish), and the judges at the Italian Supreme Court noted that he had lied and was reluctant to cooperate.

Lie one. Raffaele Sollecito first claimed in an interview with Kate Mansey from the Sunday Mirror that he and Amanda Knox were at a friend’s party on the night of the murder. It would have been obviously a tad difficult for Sollecito to find any witnesses who had attended an imaginary party to provide him and Knox with an alibi. This alibi was predictably abandoned very quickly.

Lie two. Sollecito then claimed that he was his apartment with Amanda Knox. This alibi is flatly contradicted by a silent witness: forensic evidence. According to the scientific police, there are six separate pieces of forensic evidence, including an abundant amount of his DNA on Meredith’s bra clasp, that place him in the cottage on Via della Pergola on the night of the murder.

Lie three. Sollecito then came up with a third alibi. He claimed that he was alone at his apartment and that Knox had gone out from 9pm to 1am. Both Sollecito and Knox gave completely different accounts of where they were, who they were with and what they doing on the night of the murder. These weren’t small inconsistencies, but huge, whopping lies.

Lies four and five. Sollecito and Knox told the postal police that he had called the police before the postal police had turned up at the cottage and were waiting for them. Sollecito later admitted that this was not true and that he had lied because he had believed Amanda Knox’s version of what had happened.

He said he went outside “to see if I could climb up to Meredith’s window” but could not. “I tried to force the door but couldn’t, and at that point I decided to call my sister for advice because she is a Carabinieri officer. She told me to dial 112 (the Italian emergency number) but at that moment the postal police arrived. He added: “In my former statement I told you a load of rubbish because I believed Amanda’s version of what happened and did not think about the inconsistencies.” (The Times, 7 November, 2007).

Lie six. Knox and Sollecito said they couldn’t remember most of what happened on the night of the murder, because they had smoked cannabis.

It is medically impossible for cannabis to cause such dramatic amnesia and there are no studies that have ever demonstrated that this is possible.

Long term use of cannabis may affect short-term memory, which means that users might have difficulty recalling a telephone number. But it won’t wipe out whole chunks of an evening from their memory banks.

Lie seven. Sollecito claimed that he had spoken to his father at 11pm. Phone records show that there was no telephone conversation at this time. Sollecito’s father called him a couple of hours earlier at 8.40pm.

Lie eight. Sollecito claimed that he was surfing the Internet from 11pm to 1am. The Kercher’s lawyer, Franco Maresca, pointed out that credible witnesses had shattered Sollecito’s alibi for the night of the murder. Sollecito still maintains he was home that night, working on his computer, but computer specialists have testified that his computer was not used for an eight-hour period on the night of Meredith’s murder

Lie nine. Sollecito claimed that he had slept until 10pm the next day. However, he used his computer at 5.32am and turned on his mobile phone at 6.02am. The Italian Supreme Court remarked that his night was “sleepless” to say the least.

Lie ten. When Sollecito heard that the scientific police had found Meredith’s DNA on the double DNA knife in his apartment. He told a cock and bull story about accidentally pricking Meredith’s hand whilst cooking at his apartment.

“The fact that Meredith’s DNA is on my kitchen knife is because once, when we were all cooking together, I accidentally pricked her hand.’’

Meredith had never been to Sollecito’s apartment. Sollecito could not have accidentally pricked her hand whilst cooking.

It’s highly telling that Sollecito wasn’t surprised that the forensic police had found Meredith’s DNA on the double DNA knife in his apartment. He knew Meredith’s DNA was on the blade, which is why he made up the silly cock and bull story. He was attempting to explain the presence of Meredith’s DNA on the blade, but in doing so, he further incriminated himself and Amanda Knox.

Manuela Comodi, the deputy prosecutor, explained during the hearings that the prosecution had not called either Knox or Sollecito as witnesses “because there is no point. Every time they were questioned during the pre-trial investigation they lied or tried to derail the inquiry.”

Judge Paolo Micheli, who presided over Rudy Guede fast-track trial and sent Knox and Sollecito to trial, didn’t believe many of their claims. He noted that they had given triple alibis and had lied in attempt to cover for each other.

Sollecito’s lawyers claim that he lied out of confusion and fear. However, Sollecito lied from the very first time he spoke to the police when he wasn’t a suspect. His lies cannot be attributed to confusion and fear.

Like Amanda, he has boxed himself in.

By a total of 23 separate pieces of forensic evidence.

Renato Biondo has just recently provided independent confirmation that the scientifc police’s investigation was carried out correctly. And that the forensic findings are accurate.
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Offline Hershon


Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:01 am

Posts: 42

PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:40 am   Post subject: Was Amanda Possessed by Satan Can You Elaborate?   

"Knox's behaviour on 5 November was particularly erratic. One moment she was doing the splits and cartwheels, and the next she was hitting herself repeatedly on the head, having shaking fits, crying and shouting out."

This is the first time I've read about the Hitting Heads & Fits. Can You elaborate. I'd like to possibly make a longer Blog About that if its true called "Amanda Knox Possessed by Satan?". All you needed was for her to turn her head 360 degrees and Tubular Bells by Mike Oldfield in the background! I know about the cartwheels but the head beating no! This forum's got some really neat info!
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Offline lauowolf


User avatar


Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:50 am

Posts: 525

PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:51 am   Post subject: Re: XI. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 17 -   

Couple of points.
One is, I am, of course, ridiculously old these days, but is there anyone else old enough to remember the creepy Manson girls in court, before they started with the head shaving, and carving Charlie's initials on their faces and all?
I get a similar feel from watching AK.

The other is, yes, her family is nuts.
On the one hand I do feel sorry for them, because I think in a sort-of LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU kind of way, they are working so hard to believe the unbelievable that it must be exhausting.
And. while they are fundraising like mad, it is a costly circus they are running.
I'd worry about the impact of their eventual discovery of their child's guilt, if I thought they'd ever see it with anything other than a complete confession from her.
And I don't think she'll ever do that.
In fact, maintaining her lies even this long is to me a significant sign of her incredible self-centeredness.
She might think she has a right to her parents' unquestioning support, and maybe that is true in some way.
But her 13 year-old sibling doesn't have any choice at all, any rational guidance at all, and is trying to learn how to be a grown up in the middle of this chaos.
I may not find the kid, or her older sister either, very appealing, but neither of them brought any of this about.
Their parents should know better, and that's the cause of a lot of people's anger.
But it all comes back to Amanda in the end, and so far as I can tell, she doesn't give a damn about anyone.
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Offline Hershon


Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:01 am

Posts: 42

PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:58 am   Post subject: Re: XI.Manson Girls Great Minds Think Alike   

I was thinking about them too but didn't want to post anything before someone thought I was totally nuts. I won't even blog about them as I'm sure there plenty of Manson Followers around and I don't want to get on their bad side! Squeeky Froome has to be one of the greatest names ever! In my sequel to the Amanda Knox Story- the movie maybe I'll have her go back in time and join the Manson Family and have her be Dennis Wilson of the Beach Boys love interest!

As I said, her family has to be one of the most Brain Dead Clueless College Educated Family's I've ever come across.
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