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IX. MAIN DISCUSSION, May 22 - June 19, 09

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 3:54 am   Post subject: IX. MAIN DISCUSSION, May 22 - June 19, 09   

IX. MAIN DISCUSSION, May 22 - June 19






This is the main discussion thread regarding the achievment of truth and justice for Meredith Kercher and her family. Meredith, barely 21 years old, was brutally murdered in her own home on the 1st November 2007 whilst studying in Perugia, Italy.

To read the previous main discussion thread, please view VIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, April 09 - May 22, 09

Michael (Co-Administrator/Moderator of Perugia Murder File)
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 7:58 am   Post subject: ADMINISTRATOR NOTE   

:!: Administrator Note:


Please be informed, Kermit's, Nicki's and May's PowerPoint presentations are now directly viewable online. This will provide a means for those who do not have the ability to view PowerPoints (even by installing the appropriate software), to now view them easily. It is also a convenient means for members who have already seen/downloaded them, to view them quickly and conveniently without having to hunt them down on their machines. However, please note, hyperlinks, animations and sounds in those PowerPoints that have them, do not work in the online versions, therefore the downloaded PowerPoint versions remain the optimum means of viewing them. Please let me know if you find any of the links don't work and I'd also find any kind of feedback on whether you find this new feature useful.

The links to the online versions can be found in each respective post that contain the PowerPoints. If anyone would like me to add any other media as an online version, please let me know :)

Michael

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 8:23 am   Post subject: Knox testifying   

Hi All,

Regarding Amanda Knox testifying.

I think Knox time to testify will be on the civil part’s turn. In my opinion this will happen when the other civil part in this trial, Patrick Lumumba represented by Carlo Pacelli has his allotted time to question the accused AK.
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Offline petafly


Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:08 pm

Posts: 278

Location: Switzerland/Germany

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 8:50 am   Post subject:    

Quote:
Hi Petafly,
I think there is a psychological motive here which Knox's Italian lawyers are going to use-and I was wondering why they hadn't yet done so. Can you imagine the impact on the jury of a cute sweeet college girl etc etc struggling with Italian and trying to express herself in the language oh she dearly love, with the cutest of the accents? Italians are very sensitive to people trying to learn the language -it's hardly spoken anywhere else but in Italy -and they go crazy for American /Anglo accents. A much greater impact on the jurors than the emotionless professional interpreter's voice. I would bet she will shed some tears too...ahi ahi ahi.

And she's going to wear a whiter than white shirt (perhaps her dirndl- no).
Thank you, Nicki, i didn't know italy loves American/Anglo accents so much (OT: the germans love the Swiss accent, and i happen to have one :D), but what about their patience with her stumbling through the testimony for hours? You know, even in her mother mother tongue she is almost unbearable. (Again, the germans have zero patience, they would certainly cut Amanda short and fetch an interpreter...)

The defense can't go for circus only. Can they? I mean, she has to say something. And i think she must to be very, very convincing (almost beyond nature) to do her a favor.

btw: Eyes for lies is dissapointed about Amanda testifing italian. He/she can't detect lies this way (besides, the court wouldn't make it public anyway). But perhaps thats one reason! Not to disgrace herself (Amanda) for the whole world, just for the italians. And later tell the rest of the world, the italians just didn't like her because she is american...
Quote:
I was bummed to hear that Amanda Knox is planning on speaking in Italian when she testifies on her own behalf. That sucks for us, and this blog! Maybe she'll change her mind?
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Offline petafly


Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:08 pm

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Location: Switzerland/Germany

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 9:48 am   Post subject:    

Frank wrote:
I avoid to go more into details but I guess now we are ready to hear Patrizia. See you there.

Frank wrote:
the logic tells us that the DNA test on the blade must be wrong and Raffaele's DNA on the bra, if there is, is inconclusive and unusable. Should we still see it in detail?

Frank wrote:
Just, if at next hearings they should remember that the washing machine was running or warm I'll know what conclusions to take.

The techniques of spin include:

- Selectively presenting facts and quotes that support one's position (cherry picking)
- Non-denial denial
- Phrasing in a way that assumes unproven truths
- Euphemisms to disguise or promote one's agenda
- "Burying bad news": announcing one popular thing at the same time or before as several unpopular things, hoping that the media will focus on the popular one.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 10:08 am   Post subject:    

Quote:
Will be two hearings devoted to organic relics acquired nell'indagine sull'omicidio of Meredith Kercher in the program today and tomorrow before the Court of Assizes of Perugia, which is processing urge Raffaele and Amanda Knox. Indeed Deporranno experts cited by the forensic pm Between this week and next will finish the examination of their witnesses.

Today prosecutors Giuliano Mignini and Manuela Convenient have called in the classroom alone Patrizia Stefanoni, biologist, an official of the investigation of forensic genetics. A witness is considered by prosecutors, defense and civil decisive. So much to be interviewed for eight hours prior to the hearing and urge the Knox and the process by a shortened rite Rudy Guede, then sentenced to 30 years in prison. At the heart of the testimony of the biologist, there will be followed by the operating modes and the scientific evidence.

Stefanoni the report on traces of DNA found on the urge to hook the bra of the victim and those of Knox and Kercher found on a knife seized at the house of the couple from Puglia, but also on the blood found in the house on Via della Pergola. Findings, those of science, but the defenses are always contested.

In particular the assignment of profiles to the two couples. Especially the defense of call then argued that the crime scene has been accidentally contaminated during the searches. Lawyers of the young complain that the hook of bra was identified soon after the discovery of the corpse and then find several days later. Saturday were called to give evidence of the three scientific experts who have analyzed the traces of blood in the murder house, reconstructing the position of the body of Kercher.


Google translation of this story at ANSA
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 10:41 am   Post subject:    

petafly wrote:
Quote:
Hi Petafly,
I think there is a psychological motive here which Knox's Italian lawyers are going to use-and I was wondering why they hadn't yet done so. Can you imagine the impact on the jury of a cute sweeet college girl etc etc struggling with Italian and trying to express herself in the language oh she dearly love, with the cutest of the accents? Italians are very sensitive to people trying to learn the language -it's hardly spoken anywhere else but in Italy -and they go crazy for American /Anglo accents. A much greater impact on the jurors than the emotionless professional interpreter's voice. I would bet she will shed some tears too...ahi ahi ahi.

And she's going to wear a whiter than white shirt (perhaps her dirndl- no).
Thank you, Nicki, i didn't know italy loves American/Anglo accents so much (OT: the germans love the Swiss accent, and i happen to have one :D), but what about their patience with her stumbling through the testimony for hours? You know, even in her mother mother tongue she is almost unbearable. (Again, the germans have zero patience, they would certainly cut Amanda short and fetch an interpreter...)

The defense can't go for circus only. Can they? I mean, she has to say something. And i think she must to be very, very convincing (almost beyond nature) to do her a favor.

btw: Eyes for lies is dissapointed about Amanda testifing italian. He/she can't detect lies this way (besides, the court wouldn't make it public anyway). But perhaps thats one reason! Not to disgrace herself (Amanda) for the whole world, just for the italians. And later tell the rest of the world, the italians just didn't like her because she is american...
Quote:
I was bummed to hear that Amanda Knox is planning on speaking in Italian when she testifies on her own behalf. That sucks for us, and this blog! Maybe she'll change her mind?


Hi Petafly,

Yes, Italians just love those Anglo accents, especially when coming from a young lady ;) and they also have much patience, so the judges might endure the testimony much longer than their German couterpart! I don't see any reason for Amanda to testify in Italian but trying to create some positive feelings towards her, so speaking without an interpreter may help, while a translator's emotionless voice wouldn't have any impact ( positive or negative).
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Offline Bess


Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:41 pm

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 11:10 am   Post subject:    

Art Exhibition

Among the paintings on display at the exhibition opening today at the Diocesan Museum of Terni, which collects works by prisoners in the local prison - and that will be auctioned in benefit - there is also one of Raffaele urge, a recluse accused because Terni with Amanda Knox, the murder of Meredith Kercher. It is an acrylic on canvas, size 35 cm to 45, entitled "Frangibile". The painting is a call to the landscape marked by blue and white tones with impetuous brush strokes. The exhibition aims to show the results obtained by some inmates who have attended courses in painting held at the home district, and was carried from the prison in partnership with the Diocese of Terni. All works shown are anonymous and marked only the initials of the name and surname of the authors. Except to urge that at the bottom of the painting he wanted to add his name written in italics. The exhibition will remain open until next May 23, when all the 16 works will be sold by auction, to allocate the proceeds to the Solidarity Fund of the Churches of Umbria for disadvantaged families. He was the lawyer Luca Maori, one of the defenders of call, to announce last month that some paintings made by his client during the course of painting in prison would have been exhibited in this exhibition. The lawyer also had to know that the desire to Raffaele was to allocate the proceeds from the sale of prisoners to orphans and people devastated by the earthquake in Abruzzo. The anxiety is learned.

http://www.fondazioneitaliani.it/index. ... ecito.html
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

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Location: New York

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 11:35 am   Post subject:    

About Amanda Knox testifying.

Interesting to see what pressure that might put on Sollecito, who seems to me to have shown some disdain for AK in the last year and a half, and to be a very cold fish.

He looks to me the biggest risk to her, not the prosecutors. Obviously some/much of what AK says will be about him, and he may then get up (maybe have to get up) and claim the exact opposite.

That would sure be some drama. I have two hunches here, nothing hard.

1) It is the family rather than the lawyers that are edging or reinforcing her urge to testify - Pa Knox of course made the announcement.

2) Ms Comodi would do most or all of the cross-examination, and Mignini might even take the day off....

Oh and presumably both AK and RS would be able to pop up and down to offer corrections during the testimony of the other. The courtroom is going to be full on those days.


Last edited by Fast Pete on Fri May 22, 2009 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 11:45 am   Post subject:    

Quote:
The procedures followed during the inspection and technical methods of analysis of DNA samples are identified on the center of the deposition of biologist Patrizia Stefanoni before the Court of Assizes of Perugia in the process and to urge Raffaele Amanda Knox accused of murder of Meredith Kercher.

The biologist Patrizia Stefanoni, which dealt with his team, the findings of DNA found on the body and in homes in via della Pergola, is responding to questions from the Pm Manuela comfortable. The first part of the deposition was a sort of seminar on how to catalogano and collect the evidence and exhibits.A must to try, by the accusation, to disassemble the theory of expected findings in the laboratory defenses raised by Knox and urge.

"We use the kit - Patrizia Stefanoni explained - which are internationally recognized and marketed. This means that a researcher of Sydney or in Australia looking at the same tube have the same outcome in terms of results on the DNA. . For the investigation into the death of Meredith were used two different and special kits that were used to analyze DNA and other genetic traces. "

The biologist Stefanoni also excluded contamination by operators. "Being in contact with traces of blood - he explains - is crucial for the operator does not come into contact is not to alter the scene to avoid being infected by some bacteria or viruses. Therefore we use gloves, boots, masks and coveralls special ".

The two November, just hours after the discovery of the corpse of Meredith, from Rome two teams have lots of science. "A team to identify the fingerprint papillary and the other led by me, to detect traces of DNA."


Google translation of this story at La Nazione

Would any of our Italian speakers like to go for a better translation of this paragraph:

Quote:
"Utilizziamo dei kit - ha spiegato Patrizia Stefanoni - che sono internazionalmente commercializzati e riconosciuti. Questo fa sì che sia un ricercatore di Roma o dell'Australia analizzando la stessa provetta avranno lo stesso esito in fatto di risultati sull'identificazione del Dna. Per l'indagine sulla morte di Meredith sono stati utilizzati due kit speciali e differenti che servivano per analizzare il Dna e altre tracce non genetiche".
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 11:55 am   Post subject:    

Quote:
Meredith would not be able to scratch or to be offensive in general his accusers. The girl would have limited English, as evidenced by the wounds, trying to avoid the blade of the knife that has pierced on more 'points in the neck. The news and 'indirectly confirmed by the biologist Patrizia Stefanoni, now heads the prosecution on the analysis
of artefacts and traces of dna girder in the house of horrors and the knife alleged murder weapon.

"I personally made the analysis of the hands of Meredith Kercher - says biologist - but under the nails there 'trace of skin and other ingredients that go back to the genetic profile of the killer. Or not' managed to scratch, its host, who attacked or very short nails were unable to trap the skin and hair. "

Slip on the victim, analyzed with the technique of verifying the chromosome "Y", is not 'found no trace genetic ne' seminal fluid.


Google translation of this story from Rai News

I think its saying that there wasn't any trace of the attackers under Meredith's finger nails.

Does this suggest she couldn't fight back because her arms were held?

Improved translation again welcome.
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Offline petafly


Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:08 pm

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Location: Switzerland/Germany

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 11:56 am   Post subject:    

Quote:
Interesting to see what pressure that might put on Sollecito, who seems to me to have shown some disdain for AK in the last year and a half, and to be a very cold fish.

Don't expect too much drama. The defense teams speak with each other as they know, if one falls the other will go down with him/her (although RS still refuses to give AK an alibi).

But if i were the FOA, i wouldn't trust the Sollecitos for one metre! They will try to get Raffaele out of this, and i don't think i reveal a secret: they don't care about the price!
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 12:01 pm   Post subject:    

Quote:
460 tracks were analyzed in biological laboratories of the scientific police in Rome when investigating sull'omicidio of Meredith Kercher.

228 artefacts seized by the experts at the end of the six visits that included the house of the crime and the houses of the accused. A talk about the ways' in which they have been finding traces of the methodology and used for the analysis of findings in laboratory and 'was the biologist Patrizia Stefanoni, official investigations of the genetic section of the police forensic science, witness today before the Court' s Assizes of Perugia in the process in which defendants urge Raffaele and Amanda Knox for the murder of English student (for the same crime and 'already been' sentenced to 30 years with the abbreviated rite Ivorian Rudy Hermann Guede). The biologist explained how DNA testing is useful in the investigation only if there 'a possibility' of a comparison with alri popular subjects. "The tracks do not find the name of the people to whom they belong - said the expert - and even their somatic characteristics." The Stefanoni therefore reminded that, in the house of the crime, the police operations were conducted science from the inside giving priority 'to the room of the victim. Every room 'was taken up with the spheron, a sort of video camera that turns on itself and which' can return to 360 degrees, allowing the police to be able to review scientific exactly the crime scene at any time. And then 'proceeded to the various findings and sampling. The expert was' then focused on the various tracks in the isolated home of the crime, in the home of Guede and urge and articles seized during several visits.


Google translation of this story from AGI

DNA evidence from the cottage and the homes of RG and RS.
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

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Location: New York

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 12:03 pm   Post subject:    

petafly wrote:
Don't expect too much drama. The defense teams speak with each other as they know, if one falls the other will go down with him/her (although RS still refuses to give AK an alibi).


Pete, I think there really could be some drama! We have heard that the defense teams have had limited control over these interventions.

By the way Chris Mellas is there now and likely through the dates that Curt Knox indicated AK might testify on.

We dont normally think of him as Restraining Influence #1...
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Offline petafly


Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:08 pm

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Location: Switzerland/Germany

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 12:15 pm   Post subject:    

Quote:
Pete, I think there really could be some drama! We have heard that the defense teams have had limited control over these interventions.

To the other Pete: Honestly, i pray for some escalation.! The chances aren't bad, after all: if only one of the three starts to say "something" the court will change into a freestyle mud wrestling arena!
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 868

Location: New York

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 1:00 pm   Post subject:    

petafly wrote:
To the other Pete: Honestly, i pray for some escalation.! The chances aren't bad, after all: if only one of the three starts to say "something" the court will change into a freestyle mud wrestling arena!


Yeah and at that point each defense team may have little choice but to egg on their gladiator in the ring.

This could never never happen here. No interventions. The Italian system is just so much more watchable.

And I think in some ways more fair.
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Offline MikeMCSG


Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:14 am

Posts: 207

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 1:44 pm   Post subject:    

petafly wrote:
To the other Pete: Honestly, i pray for some escalation.! The chances aren't bad, after all: if only one of the three starts to say "something" the court will change into a freestyle mud wrestling arena!


Hi petafly

You're forgetting that Rudy isn't there and has already decided to wait out the verdict before his next move.

I can't see how either of the others can extricate themselves by fingering the other so I doubt you will see a bunfight between them. We will see.
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Offline Corrina


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:20 pm

Posts: 625

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 2:07 pm   Post subject:    

Hello Everyone,

There is a story on Sky News. It says that a blood stain found in Laura's room contains mixed DNA; of Meredith and Amanda. Is this new? I haven't heard it before.

SKY NEWS


Eek! Help, moderator! Shorten my thingiemajig, please.



(Moderator Edit: Michael, Shortened url)


Last edited by Corrina on Fri May 22, 2009 2:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline petafly


Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:08 pm

Posts: 278

Location: Switzerland/Germany

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 2:07 pm   Post subject:    

I don't think it'll happen either, Mike. But i hope, so we get to know (at least some of) the truth...

btw: Rudy could write his new penfriend, Mr. Biscuit, who then faxes it to the press, they publish it, Giuliano Mignini buys a copy of, say, "Oggi" and hey presto!: Rudy is back in the trial :D It's easy!
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 2:12 pm   Post subject:    

Quote:
Dr Stefanoni...showed photographs of the knife and pointed out the areas of the handle where Knox's DNA was found, and the tip of the blade where Miss Kercher's was found.

Dr Stefanoni told the court that blood tests on the knife had proved negative, and in earlier hearings the judge and jury were told that the knife had been cleaned.

DNA from Knox and Miss Kercher was also found in blood stains found in the bidet of the bathroom, the sink and on a box of cotton wool buds, the court heard.

Dr Stefanoni said the bloodstains were "slightly pink as if the result of being washed"....The court heard how DNA from Sollecito was found on a metal clasp that had been cut away from Miss Kercher's bra and which was found at the scene.

A blood stain found in the bedroom of flatmate Laura Romanelli was also found to have DNA from Knox and Miss Kercher....


Nick Pisa at Sky News

Edit to add: Ha! Snap! Corrina. :lol: :lol:
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Offline Corrina


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:20 pm

Posts: 625

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 2:18 pm   Post subject:    

Hi Brian! But look how nice and pretty your link is. Mine is all over the place. I'm going back to see if I can edit it out since yours is less disruptive!

Edit to add: Never mind, Michael fixed my goof...Thanks, Michael. b-((


Last edited by Corrina on Fri May 22, 2009 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 868

Location: New York

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 2:19 pm   Post subject:    

MikeMCSG wrote:
I can't see how either of the others can extricate themselves by fingering the other so I doubt you will see a bunfight between them. We will see.


Each fingering the other is not the only possibility for how this might start.

Knox has been anxious to show she was with Sollecito throughout the evening, and so far he has not obliged, as Petafly already pointed out.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 2:24 pm   Post subject:    

Brian S. wrote:
Quote:
Dr Stefanoni...showed photographs of the knife and pointed out the areas of the handle where Knox's DNA was found, and the tip of the blade where Miss Kercher's was found.

Dr Stefanoni told the court that blood tests on the knife had proved negative, and in earlier hearings the judge and jury were told that the knife had been cleaned.

DNA from Knox and Miss Kercher was also found in blood stains found in the bidet of the bathroom, the sink and on a box of cotton wool buds, the court heard.

Dr Stefanoni said the bloodstains were "slightly pink as if the result of being washed"....The court heard how DNA from Sollecito was found on a metal clasp that had been cut away from Miss Kercher's bra and which was found at the scene.

A blood stain found in the bedroom of flatmate Laura Romanelli was also found to have DNA from Knox and Miss Kercher....


Nick Pisa at Sky News

Edit to add: Ha! Snap! Corrina. :lol: :lol:



The signs of washing are important. But, do you reckon our Mr Pisa has made a mistake in regard to the blood in Laura's room? No blood being found in there has ever been reported and when Charlie Wilkes posted the blood trace DNA results on the Cooks a while back, that likewise didn't mention any blood in Laura's room. It did mention blood in Filomena's, but that was supposedly found to contain only Meredith's DNA. Do you think Pisa's got Laura's room mixed up with Filomena's here? If not, this is new and quite important.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 2:25 pm   Post subject:    

Quote:
Six visits undertaken by police in Perugia during scientific investigations and that led to the finding of 228 items. In particular, they have covered the cottage in via della Pergola, the house and car and Raffaele urge the home of Rudy Guede. The biologist explained in the classroom mode 'in which they have been finding various objects and then tested in the laboratory. The expert explained to the Court as the test DNA and 'meaningful and useful only if you have the chance' to compare it with other DNA of subjects identified, stressing that''we do not find traces in the name of the entities to which nor were their somatic''.
The Stefanoni also explained that each room of the house and the crime 'was taken up with the' spheron 'a tool that lets you make photography-video global turning on itself through 360 degrees. In this way, the scientific police took the opportunity 'to review the crime scene in the laboratory.


ItaliaInformazioni

I wonder what they got from Raffaele's apartment AND HIS CAR?
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2308

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 2:26 pm   Post subject:    

Corrina wrote:
Hello Everyone,

There is a story on Sky News. It says that a blood stain found in Laura's room contains mixed DNA; of Meredith and Amanda. Is this new? I haven't heard it before.


I haven't heard this before, but if this report is accurate, it's very damning evidence. Stewart mentioned there were three or four instances of Amanda Knox's blood mixed Meredith's blood a few weeks ago.

It seems that there somebody had attempted to wash away the blood:

DNA from Knox and Miss Kercher was also found in blood stains found in the bidet of the bathroom, the sink and on a box of cotton wool buds, the court heard.

Dr Stefanoni said the bloodstains were "slightly pink as if the result of being washed
". (Nick Pisa, Sky News).


Last edited by The Machine on Fri May 22, 2009 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 2:29 pm   Post subject:    

Michael

Nick must have found a brand new hybrid of Italian rose. :lol:

Laura Romanelli - You pays your money and you takes your chance.

Personally, I think Nick meant to say Filomena Romanelli.

Any bets on Laura Mazzetti? If so its new news.
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 868

Location: New York

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 2:34 pm   Post subject:    

The Machine wrote:
Corrina wrote:
Hello Everyone,

There is a story on Sky News. It says that a blood stain found in Laura's room contains mixed DNA; of Meredith and Amanda. Is this new? I haven't heard it before.


I haven't heard this before, but if this report is accurate, it's very damning evidence. Stewart mentioned there were three or four instances of Amanda Knox's blood mixed Meredith's blood a few weeks ago.

It seems that there somebody had attempted to wash away the blood:

DNA from Knox and Miss Kercher was also found in blood stains found in the bidet of the bathroom, the sink and on a box of cotton wool buds, the court heard.

Dr Stefanoni said the bloodstains were "slightly pink as if the result of being washed
". (Nick Pisa, Sky News).


Hi Machine,

Yeah this has really surprised me too. Perhaps Brian or Nicki knew of it already? I sure dont recall seeing it elsewhere.

Added: Oh! I see that Brian already doubts it! I missed that confusion over the names.
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Offline Corrina


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:20 pm

Posts: 625

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 2:36 pm   Post subject:    

If this is new news, what else is coming up? If he just goofed up the names, then Nick is little sloppy. The pinkish blood stains is new, though raises all sorts of other questions.
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Offline budapesti


Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 1:51 pm

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 2:48 pm   Post subject:    

Yes, I didn't think that there was mixed blood in Filomena's room. Is this new?
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 2:51 pm   Post subject:    

budapesti wrote:
Yes, I didn't think that there was mixed blood in Filomena's room. Is this new?


If this report is accurate, this information is new.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 2:54 pm   Post subject: Bongiorno   

This also from Pisa's article:


Nick Pisa wrote:
Under the complicated Italian legal system hearings are only taking place on Fridays and Saturdays as the prosecutors and trial judge Giancarlo Massei are involved in other hearings.

Sollecito's lawyer Giulia Bongiorno is also an MP, busy during the week, so the trial - which started in January - is not expected to finish until October at the earliest.



When I was posting on Frank's, Amanda supporters were outright refuting my attempts to make the point that the trial is taking so long, in large part due to it having to be fit around Bongiorno's commitments in Parliament. Of course, they wanted to present the image of a grossly inferior Italian legal system being fully responsible for all the delay between hearings. God forbid anyone suggest that the defence may also be responsible for that. Above, Nick Pisa fully confirms the fact.

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Offline budapesti


Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 1:51 pm

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 2:55 pm   Post subject:    

The Machine wrote:
budapesti wrote:
Yes, I didn't think that there was mixed blood in Filomena's room. Is this new?


If this report is accurate, this information is new.


Thanks for the information. I am watching Sky News now, so if I hear anything I will post.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 2:56 pm   Post subject:    

I'd be really interested if someone could translate this sentence:

Quote:
L'esperta ha spiegato alla Corte come il test del Dna e' utile e significativo solo se si ha la possibilita' di confrontarlo con altri Dna di soggetti identificati, sottolineando che ''nelle tracce non troviamo il nome e cognome dei soggetti ai quali appartengono e nemmeno le loro caratteristiche somatiche''.


Google: The expert explained to the Court as the test DNA and 'meaningful and useful only if you have the chance' to compare it with other DNA of subjects identified, stressing that''we do not find traces in the name of the entities to which nor were their somatic''.

I think this is the "opportunity" argument.

ie. the sample isn't good enough to identify an individual from the whole population of Italy but is good enough to identify an individual from those who had the opportunity to handle Raffaele's knife.

I've heard of this argument in court before and it does carry weight.


Last edited by Brian S. on Fri May 22, 2009 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline budapesti


Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 1:51 pm

Posts: 16

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 3:01 pm   Post subject: Re: Bongiorno   

Michael wrote:
This also from Pisa's article:


Nick Pisa wrote:
Under the complicated Italian legal system hearings are only taking place on Fridays and Saturdays as the prosecutors and trial judge Giancarlo Massei are involved in other hearings.

Sollecito's lawyer Giulia Bongiorno is also an MP, busy during the week, so the trial - which started in January - is not expected to finish until October at the earliest.



When I was posting on Frank's, Amanda supporters were outright refuting my attempts to make the point that the trial is taking so long, in large part due to it having to be fit around Bongiorno's commitments in Parliament. Of course, they wanted to present the image of a grossly inferior Italian legal system being fully responsible for all the delay between hearings. God forbid anyone suggest that the defence may also be responsible for that. Above, Nick Pisa fully confirms the fact.



Or perhaps the trial is taking so long because the jury are having to sift through evidence clouded by multiple stories from certain defendants?!
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Offline indie


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 3:01 pm   Post subject:    

Bess wrote:
Art Exhibition

Among the paintings on display at the exhibition opening today at the Diocesan Museum of Terni, which collects works by prisoners in the local prison - and that will be auctioned in benefit - there is also one of Raffaele urge, a recluse accused because Terni with Amanda Knox, the murder of Meredith Kercher. It is an acrylic on canvas, size 35 cm to 45, entitled "Frangibile". The painting is a call to the landscape marked by blue and white tones with impetuous brush strokes. The exhibition aims to show the results obtained by some inmates who have attended courses in painting held at the home district, and was carried from the prison in partnership with the Diocese of Terni. All works shown are anonymous and marked only the initials of the name and surname of the authors. Except to urge that at the bottom of the painting he wanted to add his name written in italics. The exhibition will remain open until next May 23, when all the 16 works will be sold by auction, to allocate the proceeds to the Solidarity Fund of the Churches of Umbria for disadvantaged families. He was the lawyer Luca Maori, one of the defenders of call, to announce last month that some paintings made by his client during the course of painting in prison would have been exhibited in this exhibition. The lawyer also had to know that the desire to Raffaele was to allocate the proceeds from the sale of prisoners to orphans and people devastated by the earthquake in Abruzzo. The anxiety is learned.

http://www.fondazioneitaliani.it/index. ... ecito.html


Bess by any chance do you live near this exhibition. If so, we need a picture of Raffaele's "impetuous brush strokes"!
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Offline MikeMCSG


Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:14 am

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 3:04 pm   Post subject:    

Fast Pete wrote:
MikeMCSG wrote:
I can't see how either of the others can extricate themselves by fingering the other so I doubt you will see a bunfight between them. We will see.


Each fingering the other is not the only possibility for how this might start.

Knox has been anxious to show she was with Sollecito throughout the evening, and so far he has not obliged, as Petafly already pointed out.


Yeah I knew that but have never been able to see how it helped him when no one or nothing else could corroborate his presence in his flat. Hence him starting to say maybe she was with me after all to his dad.

No I think they'll stick together in this trial and cracks might start to appear at the appeal stage.
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Offline petafly


Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:08 pm

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Location: Switzerland/Germany

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 3:05 pm   Post subject:    

Quote:
Bess by any chance do you live near this exhibition. If so, we need a picture of Raffaele's "impetuous brush strokes"!

No, we don't. We've seen enough of his impetuous strokes...
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Offline Shirley


Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:48 pm

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 3:07 pm   Post subject:    

re: AK testifying

If she testifies, and testifies in Italian, then her stumbling in Italian will merely mask her fumbling with the truth. Something I doubt will fool the courtroom.

Happy Weekend everyone!
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 3:11 pm   Post subject: AManda Tesifying   

Shirley wrote:
re: AK testifying

If she testifies, and testifies in Italian, then her stumbling in Italian will merely mask her fumbling with the truth. Something I doubt will fool the courtroom.

Happy Weekend everyone!



Hi Shirley. That's a really good point actually. Amanda testifying in a non native language will serve to mask many evils. I think that's the reason the defence has opted for it. That and to curry favour with her Italian audience, as Nicki suggested.

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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 3:31 pm   Post subject:    

MikeMSCG wrote:
Yeah I knew that but have never been able to see how it helped him when no one or nothing else could corroborate his presence in his flat. Hence him starting to say maybe she was with me after all to his dad.

No I think they'll stick together in this trial and cracks might start to appear at the appeal stage.


For them to stick together either Raffaele or his defense will have to contradict Raffaele's last statement given to the investigators.

As it stands, Raffaele has said that he stayed at home whilst Amanda went out. That is what the judges will have heard. Papa Sollecito may say things to the media to suggest some doubt on the part of RS, but that is not the same as giving Amanda an alibi in court.

The proof against AK seems to me to be much stronger than the proof against RS.

His last words to a court were "the evidence against Amanda has been used against me on the "erroneous assumption that we must have been together.

Those words of his are in the file.

I don't think he'll want to change them at this trial. I don't think he will give evidence.

Amanda will say what she will when she gives evidence but she can't take away Raffaele's last words to a court.
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Offline Shirley


Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:48 pm

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 3:34 pm   Post subject: Re: AManda Tesifying   

Michael wrote:
Shirley wrote:
re: AK testifying

If she testifies, and testifies in Italian, then her stumbling in Italian will merely mask her fumbling with the truth. Something I doubt will fool the courtroom.

Happy Weekend everyone!



Hi Shirley. That's a really good point actually. Amanda testifying in a non native language will serve to mask many evils. I think that's the reason the defence has opted for it. That and to curry favour with her Italian audience, as Nicki suggested.


Hi Michael,
Speaking Italian will buy her some time too. She can hide behind- How do you say this in Italian?- while thinking up new lies. Though, Italian being her second language, her options of lies will be limited compared to their number and variety in English. But this also might work in her favor, perhaps making her sound more consistent. If that’s possible. Considering the hoo haa over her Italian sms to Patrick a whole testimony in Italian might burst a few heads. It seems that “confused” might still be her alibi.
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Offline indie


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 3:39 pm   Post subject:    

Brian S. wrote:
I'd be really interested if someone could translate this sentence:

Quote:
L'esperta ha spiegato alla Corte come il test del Dna e' utile e significativo solo se si ha la possibilita' di confrontarlo con altri Dna di soggetti identificati, sottolineando che ''nelle tracce non troviamo il nome e cognome dei soggetti ai quali appartengono e nemmeno le loro caratteristiche somatiche''.


Google: The expert explained to the Court as the test DNA and 'meaningful and useful only if you have the chance' to compare it with other DNA of subjects identified, stressing that''we do not find traces in the name of the entities to which nor were their somatic''.

I think this is the "opportunity" argument.

ie. the sample isn't good enough to identify an individual from the whole population of Italy but is good enough to identify an individual from those who had the opportunity to handle Raffaele's knife.

I've heard of this argument in court before and it does carry weight.



Just googling around Brian ar ))


Is this kind of what you are thinking:


Quote:
While the fidelity of a full DNA match has become a scientific and legal certainty in courts across the nation, partial DNA samples are not as powerful an identifier, and judges and juries must decide piecemeal if the evidence is sufficient. The number of appeals is rising along with trials based on partial matches.
Forensic scientists usually analyze 13 specific locations, or loci, on human chromosomes to obtain a complete DNA profile. Geneticists estimate that the odds of two unrelated people sharing 13 loci are one in four quadrillion.

A sample of deteriorated or contaminated DNA may allow for analysis of just some loci, which produces a partial match. In the case of Mr. Thomas, “they’ve matched three or four loci with each of those samples,” said Richard Bengtson, a homicide detective, who is the lead investigator on the case for the Los Angeles Police Department.

The chance of two people coincidentally sharing three or four genetic markers might be several thousand to one — unlikely, but not nearly the stratospheric odds of a complete DNA match.

“We used to just ignore this evidence,” said Mitch Morrissey, the district attorney of Denver and a national advocate of more aggressive uses of partial DNA evidence. “But now we’re using it to solve crimes.”

The Federal Bureau of Investigation, which manages the world’s largest forensic DNA database, accepts genetic profiles that have at least 10 loci. In certain circumstances they can be as useful as a tire print or a piece of clothing left at a crime scene. Even incomplete DNA samples can be used to exclude genetic suspects whose DNA share no matching loci.

The Federal Bureau of Investigation, which manages the world’s largest forensic DNA database, accepts genetic profiles that have at least 10 loci. In certain circumstances they can be as useful as a tire print or a piece of clothing left at a crime scene. Even incomplete DNA samples can be used to exclude genetic suspects whose DNA share no matching loci.
Critics of partial matches say they open DNA up to subjective judgments by forensic analysts and prosecutors who often overstate the value of incomplete DNA matches in court testimony. Some defense lawyers and forensic experts are pushing for universal thresholds for partial DNA evidence and clearer standards for their characterization at trial. No such standards exist.

“Partial matching becomes a very subjective thing,” said Lawrence Mueller, a biologist at the University of California, Irvine. “If analysts don’t have anything but a crappy sample, they’ll often end up going with it.”



Damaged DNA


The above explanation contains both sides of the argument.
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Offline indie


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 3:40 pm   Post subject:    

petafly wrote:
Quote:
Bess by any chance do you live near this exhibition. If so, we need a picture of Raffaele's "impetuous brush strokes"!

No, we don't. We've seen enough of his impetuous strokes...



We shall see...
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 4:15 pm   Post subject:    

indie wrote:
Brian S. wrote:
I'd be really interested if someone could translate this sentence:

Quote:
L'esperta ha spiegato alla Corte come il test del Dna e' utile e significativo solo se si ha la possibilita' di confrontarlo con altri Dna di soggetti identificati, sottolineando che ''nelle tracce non troviamo il nome e cognome dei soggetti ai quali appartengono e nemmeno le loro caratteristiche somatiche''.


Google: The expert explained to the Court as the test DNA and 'meaningful and useful only if you have the chance' to compare it with other DNA of subjects identified, stressing that''we do not find traces in the name of the entities to which nor were their somatic''.

I think this is the "opportunity" argument.

ie. the sample isn't good enough to identify an individual from the whole population of Italy but is good enough to identify an individual from those who had the opportunity to handle Raffaele's knife.

I've heard of this argument in court before and it does carry weight.



Just googling around Brian ar ))


Is this kind of what you are thinking:


Quote:
While the fidelity of a full DNA match has become a scientific and legal certainty in courts across the nation, partial DNA samples are not as powerful an identifier, and judges and juries must decide piecemeal if the evidence is sufficient. The number of appeals is rising along with trials based on partial matches.
Forensic scientists usually analyze 13 specific locations, or loci, on human chromosomes to obtain a complete DNA profile. Geneticists estimate that the odds of two unrelated people sharing 13 loci are one in four quadrillion.

A sample of deteriorated or contaminated DNA may allow for analysis of just some loci, which produces a partial match. In the case of Mr. Thomas, “they’ve matched three or four loci with each of those samples,” said Richard Bengtson, a homicide detective, who is the lead investigator on the case for the Los Angeles Police Department.

The chance of two people coincidentally sharing three or four genetic markers might be several thousand to one — unlikely, but not nearly the stratospheric odds of a complete DNA match.

“We used to just ignore this evidence,” said Mitch Morrissey, the district attorney of Denver and a national advocate of more aggressive uses of partial DNA evidence. “But now we’re using it to solve crimes.”

The Federal Bureau of Investigation, which manages the world’s largest forensic DNA database, accepts genetic profiles that have at least 10 loci. In certain circumstances they can be as useful as a tire print or a piece of clothing left at a crime scene. Even incomplete DNA samples can be used to exclude genetic suspects whose DNA share no matching loci.

The Federal Bureau of Investigation, which manages the world’s largest forensic DNA database, accepts genetic profiles that have at least 10 loci. In certain circumstances they can be as useful as a tire print or a piece of clothing left at a crime scene. Even incomplete DNA samples can be used to exclude genetic suspects whose DNA share no matching loci.
Critics of partial matches say they open DNA up to subjective judgments by forensic analysts and prosecutors who often overstate the value of incomplete DNA matches in court testimony. Some defense lawyers and forensic experts are pushing for universal thresholds for partial DNA evidence and clearer standards for their characterization at trial. No such standards exist.

“Partial matching becomes a very subjective thing,” said Lawrence Mueller, a biologist at the University of California, Irvine. “If analysts don’t have anything but a crappy sample, they’ll often end up going with it.”



Damaged DNA


The above explanation contains both sides of the argument.



You've got it Indie. :lol:

I'll defer to Nicki on this subject but as I understand it:

Although the peaks of Meredith's DNA are low in amplitude the sample doesn't have a lot of "noise"(random peaks etc) so those peaks are valid.

It would also appear that the sample of Meredith's DNA is short of 13 on matching loci.

I don't know how many match but let's just suppose it's 7 or 8. What are the chances of anyone else with 7 or 8 loci matching Meredith getting their DNA on the tip of Raffaele's knife.
This is where the opportunity aspect comes in.

How many people have ever handled Raffaele's knife? Not a quadrillion that's for sure.

I'm sure Nicki can say more on this.
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Offline indie


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 4:19 pm   Post subject:    

Brian S. wrote:
MikeMSCG wrote:
Yeah I knew that but have never been able to see how it helped him when no one or nothing else could corroborate his presence in his flat. Hence him starting to say maybe she was with me after all to his dad.

No I think they'll stick together in this trial and cracks might start to appear at the appeal stage.


For them to stick together either Raffaele or his defense will have to contradict Raffaele's last statement given to the investigators.

As it stands, Raffaele has said that he stayed at home whilst Amanda went out. That is what the judges will have heard. Papa Sollecito may say things to the media to suggest some doubt on the part of RS, but that is not the same as giving Amanda an alibi in court.

The proof against AK seems to me to be much stronger than the proof against RS.

His last words to a court were "the evidence against Amanda has been used against me on the "erroneous assumption that we must have been together.

Those words of his are in the file.

I don't think he'll want to change them at this trial. I don't think he will give evidence.

Amanda will say what she will when she gives evidence but she can't take away Raffaele's last words to a court.



I agree there is more proof against Amanda.

So for the sake of looking at it from a defense point of view:

1. Raffaele participated in the murder and he decides to support Amanda's alibi. No chance of freedom or reduced sentence.
2. Raffaele participated in the murder and he does not back Amanda's story. Slight chance of freedom if the judges feel there just is not enough evidence of Raffaele participating in the murder.
3. Raffaele was not there during the murder and only participated in the clean up and decides to support Amanda. STUPID!
4. Raffaele was not there during the murder and only participated in the clean up and does not support Amanda in court. Tell all and perhaps get a lighter sentence.

I think his best chance is not to support Amanda in any shape or fashion whether he was a part of the murder or not. For the record, I believe he was there.

For some inexplicable reason however, I feel like Raffaele has a slight conscience and he knowing he was a part of the murder is just going through with the trial for his dad's sake. I just can't see Raffaele pulling off convincing lies much longer. His psyche just seems weaker than Amanda's. The soulless charade and lying comes natural for Amanda, whereas for Raffaele it takes effort and fatherly guidance.
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Offline Swanny


Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:12 pm

Posts: 56

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 4:26 pm   Post subject:    

I'm not sure that the proof or evidence against AK is stronger than the evidence against RS. It looks to me like AK left RS's apartment first and went to the cottage before MK got to the cottage. But, I don't know about the white car here. Next, we have MK arriving at the cottage where she may or may not have met AK (or AK and RS and/or RG). Next, both AK and RS are seen at the plaza at about 9:30 PM looking back at the cottage. I don't know just how RG came into this situation. RG may have already been at the cottage when AK got there or RG may have been let in by AK, or AK and RS, or MK. Also, RG may have met AK and RS at the plaza after 9:30, as far as I know, and went with them to the cottage after 9:30 PM (even without Curatolo seeing RG).

At the cottage, it appears RS left a bare footprint on the bathroom mat in MK's blood. This, to me right now, is very strong evidence against RS. This puts him in a substantial amount of MK's blood, which can only mean MK's room. The footprint evidence against AK is two bare footprints maybe in MK's blood and missing footprint trails. However, the AK shower story degrades this evidence against AK for me.

As to the new evidence put to the court today, it appears that AK's and MK's DNA were mixed in a blood stain in, I think, Filomena's room. But, can't AK explain this away by saying that she previously visted Filomena's room and her DNA was simply mixed with blood that was brought in by someone else? I don't know the answer to that question.

As to the knife, this is quite strong evidence against AK. Also, the knife was RS's knife and found at RS's apartment. Unless AK and RS have another explanation for MK's DNA being on the knife and/or unless RS separates himself more completely from AK, it looks to be evidence against both.

As to the bra, RS's DNA on the bra clasp is very strong evidence against RS's involvement in this crime. If AK wore the bra, where is her DNA? Thus, RS is in a very tight spot with this and I think it puts him back in MK's room.

Thus, as I see it, the evidence against RS (including his bare footprint in MK's blood on the bathmat, his DNA on the bra clasp, and his ownership of the knife and relationship to AK) looks to be as strong or stronger than the evidence against AK, (which includes the two footprints, no foot print trails with a possible clean-up tied to her rental of the cottage, and the knife).

I'd like to see more evidence.

Regards,
Swanny
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 4:41 pm   Post subject: Evidence   

Posted on Frank's:


Quote:
Anonymous said...
Funny how anytime Frank posts about the increasing weakness of the prosecutions case, all the AK haters reply with a collective bray of "Amanda was lying". Seems like this misguided whine smacks of desperation.

May 22, 2009 9:11 AM



It seems the firefighting process by the FOA has now begun, as always happens after damning evidence is presented and I'd like to respond to this here, rather the Frank's as I'm not posting there at the moment. Any one piece of evidence can be taken in isolation, out of context from the rest, attacked and weakened. This process is called 'divide and conquer', which whilst normally applying to 'people', is actually applicable to evidence in a criminal case just as well. There is no slam dunk in this case, no one piece of evidence that the whole case hunges on, rather the case is a sum of many parts which come together to form a moasaic...which in turn tells a narrative. The con, would be to persuade the public of the opposite and take that one piece of evidence you wish to convince them is the keystone, where none exists, then attempt to expose it, mainly through spin and interpretation, as being weak. When you have a case where there is not one particular brick is super robust in strength, that does not neceassarily equate to a weak case...for many medium strength bricks combined together build a strong wall.

Let us take the knife for example. Yes, we could so the DNA result is not strong and so we could aquit the couple...IF it were not supported by many other bricks consisting of bloody footprints that match the suspects and have been cleaned, bloody footprints that match the suspects and haven't, mixed DNA in the blood of Meredith, a clear proof of a clean-up, a clear proof of a staging, a clear proof of multiple attackers present, plus multiple story changes collectively from the suspects and alibis that not only have never actually matched, but contradict each other, so proving 'lying'. When various DNA and blood evidence of the accused is also thrown into the mix placing them at the crime scene at the time around when the crime occured and multiple witnesses also place them there and expose them as having lied, a serious case remains to be answered. The only answer to which, is either guilt, or faith in a near impossible long chain of unfortunate coincidences. Which of these one accepts depends wholly one ones agenda and mind set. I am spritual and have my own very private faith, but blind faith is not a logical option for most people...myself included.

_________________
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Last edited by Michael on Fri May 22, 2009 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Swanny


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 4:41 pm   Post subject:    

Actually, now that I reread my post, when you put AK and RS together, they both look like they're guilty of something. But, I don't know who did what.

Swanny
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 4:50 pm   Post subject: Trial Reports   

From the Cook's Smog:

Goofy wrote:
Posted by ShowMeYourSources at 5/22/09 9:15 a.m.

Candace,

I see the google alerts are summarizing what is going on in court today. I also see they are blending previous court testimony to make it sound like it is happening today.

I will get you a report later today as to what really is going on in trial.

On a side note. Nobody needs to worry about what hasn't been said publically by the defense in regards to the DNA crap. They have known about this. Do you really believe Torre would stake his reputation on the line in order to accomodate speculation? Believe me, for some of us who have seen the DNA evidence we have decided that in this case DNA=JOKE. I can't wait to hear how the cross of Stefanoni has gone. I will also be very curious as to whether Andrea Vogt is in Perugia and whether or not she will in fact report on the entire days activities or will she too summarize?



THE COOK'S SMOG


Ahhh...and that report will be from Chris Mellas, right Goofy?


I see having Nick Pisa and Barbie Nadeau on your journalist hit list isn't enough and you're now gearing up to stick it to Andrea Vogt. You should get Peter Popham to attend the trials for you, I'm sure he'll sing you a pleasant song in post hearing copy.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Last edited by Michael on Fri May 22, 2009 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Jools


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

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Location: Spain

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 4:58 pm   Post subject:    

petafly wrote:
Quote:
Bess by any chance do you live near this exhibition. If so, we need a picture of Raffaele's "impetuous brush strokes"!

No, we don't. We've seen enough of his impetuous strokes...


Here it is!
:lol:

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Offline Shirley


Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:48 pm

Posts: 376

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 5:06 pm   Post subject:    

Wow Jools, thanks. That's actually not too bad, a whole lotta yellow, but not too bad. I was expecting it to be worse not because he's on trial for murder but because painting is hard.
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Offline Jools


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Location: Spain

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 5:09 pm   Post subject: Re: Trial Reports   

Michael wrote:
From the Cook's Smog:

Goofy wrote:
Posted by ShowMeYourSources at 5/22/09 9:15 a.m.

Candace,

I see the google alerts are summarizing what is going on in court today. I also see they are blending previous court testimony to make it sound like it is happening today.

I will get you a report later today as to what really is going on in trial.

On a side note. Nobody needs to worry about what hasn't been said publically by the defense in regards to the DNA crap. They have known about this. Do you really believe Torre would stake his reputation on the line in order to accomodate speculation? Believe me, for some of us who have seen the DNA evidence we have decided that in this case DNA=JOKE. I can't wait to hear how the cross of Stefanoni has gone. I will also be very curious as to whether Andrea Vogt is in Perugia and whether or not she will in fact report on the entire days activities or will she too summarize?



THE COOK'S SMOG


Ahhh...and that report will be from Chris Mellas, right Goofy?


I see having Nick Pisa and Barbie Nadeau on your journalist hit list isn't enough and you're now gearing up to stick it to Andrea Vogt. You should get Peter Popham to attend the trials for you, I'm sure he'll sing you a pleasant song in post hearing copy.


Yeap, this Goofy sounds like Goofy Cmellas.

SMYS quote:
"Do you really believe Torre would stake his reputation on the line in order to accomodate speculation?"

I'm sure Roberto (sentenced this week to life in prison) Spaccino's supporters for which Torre was also the consultant were saying the same thing.
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Offline indie


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Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:15 am

Posts: 383

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 5:10 pm   Post subject:    

Jools wrote:
petafly wrote:
Quote:
Bess by any chance do you live near this exhibition. If so, we need a picture of Raffaele's "impetuous brush strokes"!

No, we don't. We've seen enough of his impetuous strokes...


Here it is!
:lol:




Hmmmm ask and you shall receive. Thanks Jools. Interesting.
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Offline indie


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Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:15 am

Posts: 383

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 5:19 pm   Post subject:    

Swanny wrote:
Actually, now that I reread my post, when you put AK and RS together, they both look like they're guilty of something. But, I don't know who did what.

Swanny



Join the club it is a tangled web indeed. I was looking at it from Raffaele's defense team standpoint. How far is their client willing to go to have a chance at freedom? Will he abandon Amanda if he participated in the crime? I believe his father wants him to, but Raffaele has a conflict in his soul.
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Offline Tara


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Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

Posts: 1010

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 5:21 pm   Post subject: Art   

JOOLS! :)

You're amazing! GREAT FIND!

Indeed, a very interesting painting by Sollecito.
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Offline Jools


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Location: Spain

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 5:25 pm   Post subject:    

Jools wrote:
petafly wrote:
Quote:
Bess by any chance do you live near this exhibition. If so, we need a picture of Raffaele's "impetuous brush strokes"!

No, we don't. We've seen enough of his impetuous strokes...


Here it is!
:lol:



Hi Indie & Shirley,

I forgot to add the details:
Acrylic on canvas measuring 35x45 cm. AND TITLE "FRANGIBILE"
:lol: :lol:
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Offline budapesti


Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 1:51 pm

Posts: 16

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 5:26 pm   Post subject:    

I was just wondering if RS's DNA was found on the same knife as AK?
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2308

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 5:32 pm   Post subject:    

budapesti wrote:
I was just wondering if RS's DNA was found on the same knife as AK?


No, it wasn't.
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Offline budapesti


Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 1:51 pm

Posts: 16

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 5:35 pm   Post subject:    

Thanks again Machine. I had been thinking all along that it had been. Gosh that is damning.
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Offline Swanny


Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:12 pm

Posts: 56

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 5:41 pm   Post subject:    

RS may have a conflict in his soul, but I have a slightly different take on this.

To me, it looks like RS was involved in the crime and I think more than just the clean-up. Why? Because it makes no sense to me to think that a person, RS or any other person, would help clean up a murder for another person, here AK, that they only met two or three weeks earlier. I have been "in love" before and I can't imagine doing it for that reason either. I would not have anything to do with it and even if I did'nt want to report it I would probably have to report it almost immediately to the police.

For me, if RS says that he was only involved in the clean up, he comes off as unbelievable and I think he knows that. Thus, I think RS is not saying he was only involved in the clean-up because very few people would believe that and he knows that. Also, by admitting involvement, he places himself intimately involved in the crime and this brings him even closer to being convicted and he's afraid of being convicted. In addition, if he rats on AK, then he can expect AK to rat on him.

Regards,
Swanny
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Offline Swanny


Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:12 pm

Posts: 56

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 6:02 pm   Post subject:    

Sorry Indie, Maybe I didn't quite stay on track with what you said. I tried but got off track.

I don't know, I suppose RS could maybe cut a deal with the court, admitting guilt and getting a lighter sentence.

Swanny
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Offline Shirley


Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:48 pm

Posts: 376

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 6:02 pm   Post subject:    

Jools wrote:
Jools wrote:
petafly wrote:
Quote:
Bess by any chance do you live near this exhibition. If so, we need a picture of Raffaele's "impetuous brush strokes"!

No, we don't. We've seen enough of his impetuous strokes...


Here it is!
:lol:



Hi Indie & Shirley,

I forgot to add the details:
Acrylic on canvas measuring 35x45 cm. AND TITLE "FRANGIBILE"
:lol: :lol:




Hmmm "frangible" sounds like a kind of cheese, which all that yellow paint does nothing to dispel.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 6:12 pm   Post subject:    

Swanny wrote:
RS may have a conflict in his soul, but I have a slightly different take on this.

To me, it looks like RS was involved in the crime and I think more than just the clean-up. Why? Because it makes no sense to me to think that a person, RS or any other person, would help clean up a murder for another person, here AK, that they only met two or three weeks earlier. I have been "in love" before and I can't imagine doing it for that reason either. I would not have anything to do with it and even if I did'nt want to report it I would probably have to report it almost immediately to the police.

For me, if RS says that he was only involved in the clean up, he comes off as unbelievable and I think he knows that. Thus, I think RS is not saying he was only involved in the clean-up because very few people would believe that and he knows that. Also, by admitting involvement, he places himself intimately involved in the crime and this brings him even closer to being convicted and he's afraid of being convicted. In addition, if he rats on AK, then he can expect AK to rat on him.

Regards,
Swanny


The thing to bear in mind here Swanny is the Italian system.

AK is going to testify in what looks to be the civil part of the trial. Thus, I don't believe she will be available for cross examination by the criminal prosecution.

She'll say she was with Raffaele all night.

I don't believe for a minute that RS will testify because he will be asked to either confirm his statement that Amanda went out whilst he stayed at home or change his evidence to confirm what Amanda has said from the civil stand.

If Raffaele says he was with Amanda it won't just be the evidence against him at the trial but as he rightly said at his appeal for house arrest the evidence against Amanda will also play aginst him.

Despite conflicting stories of that evening, I don't believe either of them is going to change their position at this trial.

But if convicted, Raffaele may sing a different tune at the appeal.


Last edited by Brian S. on Fri May 22, 2009 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline justlooking


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 6:13 pm   Post subject:    

It has a vaguely 'Van Goth'/Impressionists feel to it. Certainly bold colours and confident looking strokes. Of course knowing that it was painted by a man charged with murder does make you see things that maybe are not there...

_________________
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Offline Swanny


Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:12 pm

Posts: 56

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 6:40 pm   Post subject:    

I have to say, I don't believe the RS clean-up argument. Also, using similar reasoning to the reasoning that evidence against AK will be used against RS if RS says he was with AK, then with AK saying that she was with RS all night, the evidence against RS will or may be used against AK.

AK may have significant problems with this.

Regards,
Swanny
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Offline mojo


Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:31 pm

Posts: 225

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 6:52 pm   Post subject:    

there's zip in the english language press....Nick Pisa's SKY NEWS report and and AP report that's about four paras long which says nothing that Nick has not already said....anything in the Italian press, yet??
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 6:59 pm   Post subject: Torre   

Jools wrote:
Yeap, this Goofy sounds like Goofy Cmellas.

SMYS quote:
"Do you really believe Torre would stake his reputation on the line in order to accomodate speculation?"

I'm sure Roberto (sentenced this week to life in prison) Spaccino's supporters for which Torre was also the consultant were saying the same thing.



Oh, you didn't know? Of all the experts giving testimony in this trial, including all those of the prosecution, Torre is unique and is the only one 'putting his reputation on the line' :roll:

Question: How many cases has Torre been on the winning side of lately?

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Hungarian


Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:40 am

Posts: 155

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 7:09 pm   Post subject:    

justlooking wrote:
It has a vaguely 'Van Goth'/Impressionists feel to it. Certainly bold colours and confident looking strokes. Of course knowing that it was painted by a man charged with murder does make you see things that maybe are not there...


like for example a figure lying on the shores of that lake, on the right side, with his arm stretched --
and every colour is represented here -- except the red --
only the colour of flesh -- pinkish rose --
quote from: http://desktoppub.about.com/cs/colorsel ... yellow.htm
"Yellow is sunshine. It is a warm color that, like red, has conflicting symbolism. On the one hand it denotes happiness and joy but on the other hand yellow is the color of cowardice and deceit."
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Offline Truth Seeker


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Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:26 am

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 7:15 pm   Post subject:    

Hungarian wrote:
justlooking wrote:
It has a vaguely 'Van Goth'/Impressionists feel to it. Certainly bold colours and confident looking strokes. Of course knowing that it was painted by a man charged with murder does make you see things that maybe are not there...


like for example a figure lying on the shores of that lake, on the right side, with his arm stretched --
and every colour is represented here -- except the red --
only the colour of flesh -- pinkish rose --
quote from: http://desktoppub.about.com/cs/colorsel ... yellow.htm
"Yellow is sunshine. It is a warm color that, like red, has conflicting symbolism. On the one hand it denotes happiness and joy but on the other hand yellow is the color of cowardice and deceit."


On my monitor it looks much more like a "cowardice and deceit" yellow than like a "happiness and joy" yellow. ;)
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Offline Truth Seeker


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 7:18 pm   Post subject:    

Swanny wrote:
I have to say, I don't believe the RS clean-up argument. Also, using similar reasoning to the reasoning that evidence against AK will be used against RS if RS says he was with AK, then with AK saying that she was with RS all night, the evidence against RS will or may be used against AK.

AK may have significant problems with this.

Regards,
Swanny


Yes, AK's story of being with RS all night is going to be very detrimental for her when the bra clasp evidence is introduced. I suspect that the bra clasp evidence is going to have a big impact in this trial, if RS's DNA was really present in an "abundant" quantity, as we have been hearing.
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2308

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 7:38 pm   Post subject:    

Truth Seeker wrote:
I suspect that the bra clasp evidence is going to have a big impact in this trial, if RS's DNA was really present in an "abundant" quantity, as we have been hearing.


The bra clasp evidence will have a huge impact in this trial. There was an abundant amount of Sollecito's DNA on the bra clasp and it was impossible for the clasp to have been contaminated. The fact Meredith's bra was removed some time after she had been killed further implicates Knox and Sollecito.

The bare bloody footprint on the blue bathmat is also damning evidence against Sollecito. Two experts testified at the trial that the bare bloody footprint on the blue bathmat matched the precise characteristics of Sollecito’s foot. Dr. Lorenzo Rinaldi categorically ruled out the possibility that the bloody footprint belonged to Rudy Guede

If Nick Pisa's report that Knox's DNA was mixed with Meredith's blood in Filomena's room is accurate, the case against Knox will be a slam dunk.
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Offline Hungarian


Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:40 am

Posts: 155

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 7:39 pm   Post subject:    

still musing about the painting -- autumn? no leaf on the tree -- the bare and contorted lengthened branches piercing the sky on the right side -- cloud comes down -- the reflection (if it is a reflection -- the green brushstrokes) is not a real reflection -- a strange picture, with a certain talent, or sensitivity -- especially those bare branches that grow out of the tree, like nerves -- just speculating -- I hope this is really RS's picture -- it intriguing anyhow
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Offline Tara


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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 8:57 pm   Post subject: ANDREA VOGT   

Andrea Vogt weighs in from the trial today at the SEATTLE PI

Here's an excerpt:

Quote:
Friday's key evidence focused on mixed genetic traces of Knox and Kercher found throughout the house. That's something, Knox's defense lawyers said, that was normal given that they lived together.

But mixed blood samples were found as well. Specifically, mixed blood of Knox and Kercher was found on the drain of the bidet, on a box of Q-tips sitting on the sink and the sink ledge.

A drop of Knox's blood was identified on the sink faucet. Kercher's blood was also found on the toilet lid and the bathroom light switch, on the part that would have been touched to turn on the lights. Elsewhere in the house, luminol-enhanced footprints were analyzed and found to be mixed genetic material of Knox and Kercher.

Tests on a spot of luminol-enhanced blood in roommate Filomena Romanelli's room (where the window had been broken with a large rock) revealed mixed DNA of Kercher and Knox.


Last edited by Tara on Fri May 22, 2009 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Tara


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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 9:03 pm   Post subject: Another excerpt   

Something else that's very intriguing from Andrea Vogt's article:

Quote:
In addition, their mixed DNA (this time traces of genetic material, but not blood) were found on the 20-inch kitchen knife that prosecutors say is the murder weapon.

"On the grip of the handle there is the profile of Amanda Knox and on the blade there is the genetic profile of the victim," Stefanoni said.

Biologists chose samples from a particular part of the blade because there were long streaks visible to the naked eye that appeared to have been made by a rubbing motion, she said.


Maybe the diligent cleaners used some sort of abrasive sponge/brillo pad/cleanser as well as the bleach?
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Offline petafly


Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:08 pm

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Location: Switzerland/Germany

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 9:06 pm   Post subject:    

Quote:
Tests on a spot of luminol-enhanced blood in roommate Filomena Romanelli's room (where the window had been broken with a large rock) revealed mixed DNA of Kercher and Knox.

Quote:
Stefanoni, however, responded that the one test she did "reliably" identified the trace as Kercher's.

- game over -
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Offline petafly


Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:08 pm

Posts: 278

Location: Switzerland/Germany

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 9:33 pm   Post subject:    

Quote:
Sollecito would have had to rub the bra hook forcefully for DNA from his skin cells to be on it, she said. Dead skin cells floating around the room do not contain DNA and would not stick, she said.

Another one, very interesting: Link
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Offline BellaDonna


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Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:44 pm

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 9:34 pm   Post subject:    

I have been following this court case and the PMF and True Justice sites closely for a while now but haven't posted before. The story of Meredith Kercher really touched me deeply and I truly hope we see some justice for her. I've never really followed a criminal case before but this one really effects me, not only because of the horrific details, but also because Meredith's family live only a mile or two from me (although I do not know them).

I am really interested in some of the more minor details in this case. There has been talk from Amanda's supporters about how Meredith and Knox were 'good friends' and I've heard people say that they couldn't believe that someone would be motivated to kill someone they had only known for such a short period of time (correct me if I'm wrong but I believe they'd only known each other for 2-3 months?). I believe it is definitely possible for both of these things to be true, from experience of my own. I find it scary in some ways how things that happened to me mirror this case.

Like Meredith, I studied abroad for a year and ended up in a flatshare with other girls. In the flatshare, there were three people and none of us had really been away from home much before. One girl was Canadian and the another girl was from South America. Myself and the Canadian girl stuck together and became close friends at first and it was a relief to have someone who spoke the same language where I didn't have to think too much about translating what I wanted to say. However, after the first few weeks, I began to meet other people from my course and found her quite suffocating. She didn't seem to make any other friends. To cut a long story short, we soon found that our personalities very much clashed - she was extremely self-obsessed, messy and promiscuous. She also drank a lot and rarely left the house, having met no friends. She become increasingly aggressive to me and I felt very threatened by her. When she met a particular boy, she started a campaign against me to make my life a misery there. The final straw was when I ended up very ill after she laced my food with amphetimines. At that point, I felt I couldn't carry on living with her, or even in the same country and so I packed my bags and went home (something I still regret). I'm not saying this this is anything like as extreme as happened in Meredith's case but I can't help but see similarities.

This all happened in the space of four and a half months. So I totally buy into the idea that Meredith and Amanda could have been friends at the beginning but then this turned into annoyance and perhaps, on Amanda's part at least, anger and hatred in such a short period of time. I have heard that Meredith had plenty of friends in Perugia but I haven't heard the same about Amanda. For Meredith to have suffered so many injuries, someone must have had some serious anger towards her.

My heart goes out to Meredith's family. I cannot imagine how hard it must be to go through this.
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Offline DLW


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:41 pm

Posts: 623

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 9:44 pm   Post subject:    

Patrizia Stefanoni from Rain News 24:

"I personally made the analysis of the hands of Meredith Kercher - says biologist - but under the nails there 'trace of skin and other ingredients that go back to the genetic profile of the killer. Or not' managed to scratch, its host, who attacked or very short nails were unable to trap the skin and hair. "

Unfortunately Meredith wasn’t able to scratch a suspect. That’s what happens when multiple attackers held her arms. But what about all this hair that the victim was supposedly clutching onto that quickly identified the attacker as being black. This was stated repeatedly by the FOA brigade. Another lie or myth busted. The investigators at that point would simply have had no reason or evidence to suspect that a black man was involved.? Not until Amanda identified the wrong one. Bad eyesight, bad luck considering she later said she said she wasn’t there , send the cops on a wild goose chase?
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Offline petafly


Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:08 pm

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Location: Switzerland/Germany

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 9:48 pm   Post subject:    

Quote:
I have heard that Meredith had plenty of friends in Perugia but I haven't heard the same about Amanda. For Meredith to have suffered so many injuries, someone must have had some serious anger towards her.

I think you nailed it! :D
Welcome BellaDonna, thank you for sharing your story. I still have goosebumbs!
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Offline DLW


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:41 pm

Posts: 623

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 10:28 pm   Post subject:    

Ann Wise on today’s developments.

‘Stefanoni also said that in about 20 out of over 100 hundred samples taken from the crime scene she found Knox's genetic profile, or DNA. This is not unusual since Knox lived in the cottage, but significantly, in a number of the samples Knox's DNA was mixed with Kercher's DNA.’

‘Most of the mixed DNA from the two women was found in blood traces discovered in the bathroom. Stefanoni told the court that Knox's DNA was found mixed with Kercher's in a luminol-enhanced bare footprint in the hallway outside Kercher's room,and in a luminol-enhanced spot found in the room of housemate Filomena Romanelli.’

http://abcnews.go.com/International/sto ... 872&page=1
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 10:39 pm   Post subject:    

Quote:
The Italian news agency ANSA quoted Stefanoni as testifying that traces of Knox's genetic code were found in a small scratch on the knife's handle, and that the point in which the genetic material was found indicates that the knife "was used to pierce and not to cut."

After Stefanoni testified, Knox's lawyer told reporters outside the courtroom that the and that the defense was considering asking the court to order DNA testing by an outside expert.


Associated Press
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Offline Tara


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Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

Posts: 1010

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 11:00 pm   Post subject: Ear troubles...   

DLW wrote:
Ann Wise on today’s developments.

‘Stefanoni also said that in about 20 out of over 100 hundred samples taken from the crime scene she found Knox's genetic profile, or DNA. This is not unusual since Knox lived in the cottage, but significantly, in a number of the samples Knox's DNA was mixed with Kercher's DNA.’

‘Most of the mixed DNA from the two women was found in blood traces discovered in the bathroom. Stefanoni told the court that Knox's DNA was found mixed with Kercher's in a luminol-enhanced bare footprint in the hallway outside Kercher's room,and in a luminol-enhanced spot found in the room of housemate Filomena Romanelli.’

http://abcnews.go.com/International/sto ... 872&page=1


Thanks for the link DLW :)

From the article above:

Quote:
The significance of the mixed DNA was not explained in court, but in past reports the prosecution has theorized that Knox used that bathroom to wash-up after the murder, and due to a nose-bleed or some other injury, her blood mixed with that of the victim.

Knox's defense, however, has mentioned the possibility that it could be menstrual blood or blood from Knox's ear, which she had recently pierced.


Back to our ear discussion from long ago, I was prompted to dig out this old photo:




If you download this photo and do a zoom on the ear, you'll see something's not right.

Where is that bottom "lobe" earring? Why does Knox's earlobe look strange? Has it been traumatized in some way? Was the earring "ripped" out in a struggle? That type of injury would cause bleeding.

A perfect coverup would be that she just had her ear pierced. She has 13 on each ear, so who would know right? Except a piercing would not bleed like a ripped out earring would.
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Offline Tara


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Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

Posts: 1010

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 11:26 pm   Post subject: Earrings   

I just saw this post over at Frank's and thought I'd clarify my earring query. Obviously, this poor Amanda defender has never worn earrings, so s/he doesn't know that earrings can get caught on fabric (terrycloth towels are great at grabbing earrings!), hair, etc. or just about anything they come in contact with - especially post type earrings. Amanda having her earring ripped out would not necessarily be a result of Meredith grabbing her ear.

Quote:
Anonymous said...
Apparently the latest theory is that Meredith was able to rip out one of Amanda's earrings and that's where her blood came from.

No DNA was found under her nails, but she ripped out an earring.

This is the wacky pattern of the crew, use the same information that you deny in the next breath.

May 22, 2009 4:14 PM
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Offline The 411


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Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:49 pm

Posts: 1386

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 11:30 pm   Post subject:    

Something from an old "Corriere della Sera" article, which I think Tara (I think it was you, Ms. Sleepless in Seattle!! ;) ) recently brought to our attention, has stuck in my head. In that Italian newspaper article, AK remarks about the possible length of her incarceration.


«Io spero che non ci vogliano vent'anni. Se è uno, un anno, allora okay, meglio di venti

Translation- "I hope it won't take 20 years. If one, one year, well, okay, better than twenty."

WHAAAAAttttT?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :shock:


This is NOT the statement of an innocent person.

What kind of innocent person, who has been falsely charged with a brutal, notorious crime would EVER say that????

Think about it. Of course, any truly innocent person would consider every single last day, hour minute that they were incarcerated to be only ...an enormous and INTOLERABLE injustice!!! He or she would never, ever accept ..."a year as okay, but twenty, I hope not." NEVER.

Hmmmm...as a matter of fact, it almost sounds as though she feels that she needs "a little bit of punishment"for the murder thing... but NOT A LOT. That's my read on her revealing comment.

If you are truly innocent, every day you are falsely imprisoned is a day that has been stolen from you. You may resign yourself to the fact that the wheels of justice turn slowly, hoping to make the best out of a horrible, horrible, situation, but you'd never say: "if one year [in prison] well, okay," No innocent person would consider one year, or one day, or even one hour to be okay of being accused and locked up for a crime they had no involvement with. An innocent person would, "not go gentle into that good (jail)." He or she would rage, rage, rage against the injustice!!!!!!! If not for him/herself, then for the nightmare you're putting your beloved family through!

As Michael wrote, you can't take one single piece of evidence and make a case of it, but AK's "consciousness of guilt" behavioral evidentiary "bricks" are making a pile high enough to ....well, build a nice villa, at this point.

I think the way AK copes is by seeing this as a dramatic adventure of sorts of which she will write a
book about, destined to be an international best-seller. I REALLY don't think her family feels this way, but I think Amanda is actually well, sorta *grateful* to have had this time in Italy, learn the language, get material for her book, become a legend in her own mind, errr...time.

I don't know why, but the photographs of Amanda's continuosly lighthearted expressions in court still shock me to the core, they disturb me. Her demeanor offends me, and I can just imagine how Meredith's family feels. Especially when seen in juxtaposition with the faces of the sober and ultra-serious Italian custodial/bailiff-type personnel, who are frequently photographed with the CONSISTENTLY carefree-looking young woman.

There is something very creepy about her gleeful smiles as she looks into the lenses of the courtroom photographers and these photos have reminded me of some fictional film character, but I couldn't quite remember who it was.

But, I finally remembered which film character it was. Remember that famous scene in "Sunset Boulevard" when murderess and narcissist Norma Desmond descends the staircase, performing to the end for the cameras...."All right, Mr. DeMille, I'm ready for my close-up." (available on YouTube, for film buffs) Yes, that's the same creepiness factor I'm picking up here with AK in court.

Could that character, Norma Desmond, whom Gloria Swanson played in the film version, resemble AK, say...twenty, thirty years from now...as she looks into the lens of that one camera that still bothers to take her picture--i.e., "Gente" Magazine!!
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 11:44 pm   Post subject: Italian press reports   

A short summary of the main points from the Italian press -thanks Catnip for posting the original versions :)

Stefanoni under cross examination answers Buongiorno's questions about contamination: " DNA transfer isn't granted nor easy, even theoretically", she defined such transfer possible " only when the originating sample is wet, but not when it is dry"-I guess she's referring to the bra evidence-collected after a few weeks after it had been found and photographed.

Stefanoni also stated that the knife has been used to pierce and not to cut. Knox's defense has argued that Meredith's DNA sample was too scarce haha, it seeems they are no longer claiming that that DNA could match "half of Italy"! Ghirga doesn't exclude they'll be asking for further examinations of the knife to show the sample yielding Meredith's DNA was too scarce to be reliable.

Stefanoni says she has personally examined Meredith's hands and there was no biological specimens trapped under her fingernails-either because her nails very short or because the was unable to scratch her attackers.

So far on the Italian press I have found no reports of the mixed blood Knox-Meredith in Romanelli room. But if it is true we will read it on tomorrow final reports of the hearing
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 11:56 pm   Post subject:    

No biological material was found under Meredith's fingernails. Excluding a clean up at this level, we can infer that
1. DNA containing cells are not so easily transferred-a certain pressure has to be exerted,DNA doesn't fly around-as it has been repeated over and over by experts.
2.Meredith was pinned down, someone was holding her arms, and she could only move her hands in the vain attempt to shield herself from the knife(s) blows

_________________
"A pensare male si fa peccato, ma molto spesso ci si azzecca" mike
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 11:58 pm   Post subject:    

Hi Nicki,

It seems that Nick Pisa's report about Amanda Knox's DNA being mixed with Meredith blood in Filomena's room for Sky News is accurate because it is being widely reported by other respectable journalists:

"DNA from Knox and Meredith was also found in a blood stain found in the bedroom of flatmate Laura Romanelli - where the prosecution claims a window was smashed to make the murder look like a bungled break in." (Nick Squires, The Daily Telegraph).

"Most of the mixed DNA from the two women was found in blood traces discovered in the bathroom. Stefanoni told the court that Knox's DNA was found mixed with Kercher's in a luminol-enhanced bare footprint in the hallway outside Kercher's room,and in a luminol-enhanced spot found in the room of housemate Filomena Romanelli." (Anne Wise, ABC News).

"The Rome forensic police biologist in charge of DNA collection and analysis, Patrizia Stefanoni, testified Friday that five mixed DNA samples -- blood or genetic material that tested positive for both Kercher and Amanda Knox -- were identified in three different areas of the apartment the two women shared."

"Tests on a spot of luminol-enhanced blood in roommate Filomena Romanelli's room (where the window had been broken with a large rock) revealed mixed DNA of Kercher and Knox." (Andrea Vogt, The Seattle Post-Intelligencer).
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 12:13 am   Post subject:    

The Machine wrote:
Hi Nicki,

It seems that Nick Pisa's report about Amanda Knox's DNA being mixed with Meredith blood in Filomena's room for Sky News is accurate because it is being widely reported by other respectable journalists:

"DNA from Knox and Meredith was also found in a blood stain found in the bedroom of flatmate Laura Romanelli - where the prosecution claims a window was smashed to make the murder look like a bungled break in." (Nick Squires, The Daily Telegraph).

"Most of the mixed DNA from the two women was found in blood traces discovered in the bathroom. Stefanoni told the court that Knox's DNA was found mixed with Kercher's in a luminol-enhanced bare footprint in the hallway outside Kercher's room,and in a luminol-enhanced spot found in the room of housemate Filomena Romanelli." (Anne Wise, ABC News).

"The Rome forensic police biologist in charge of DNA collection and analysis, Patrizia Stefanoni, testified Friday that five mixed DNA samples -- blood or genetic material that tested positive for both Kercher and Amanda Knox -- were identified in three different areas of the apartment the two women shared."

"Tests on a spot of luminol-enhanced blood in roommate Filomena Romanelli's room (where the window had been broken with a large rock) revealed mixed DNA of Kercher and Knox." (Andrea Vogt, The Seattle Post-Intelligencer).

Hi TM,
it looks like the info is reliable, the Italian press has not reported it but it's not so strange, usually they like to wrap up all the news after the hearings have concluded. If true, it's very damning. I'm curious to see how defense is going to explain it!
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 12:19 am   Post subject:    

It's known from Haloscan days that there was a blood stain which showed up under luminol in Filomena's room.

Near it was a postcard which was said to have a footprint on it. The postcard matched another found in Meredith's room and it was thought that perhaps it stuck to the bottom of someones foot and was transported from Meredith's room to Filomena's.

No matter - Blood on the floor in Filomena's room has been known about since 2007.


Last edited by Brian S. on Sat May 23, 2009 12:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 12:20 am   Post subject:    

nicki wrote:
Hi TM,
it looks like the info is reliable, the Italian press has not reported it but it's not so strange, usually they like to wrap up all the news after the hearings have concluded. If true, it's very damning. I'm curious to see how defense is going to explain it!


I don't see how they can explain it. Petafly is right; it's game over.
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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 12:27 am   Post subject: Norma, a woman of 50!   

Great post 411!

I love this clip where she says "I'm a star...I get hundreds of fan letters every day" - she looks like such a madwoman and what great acting!
SCENE FROM SUNSET BLVD

FINAL SCENE FROM SUNSET BLVD


Back on topic, I agree that if Knox was innocent, why would she say it was ok for the trial to take 1 year? Is she feeling remorse for what she did to Patrick Lumumba, so spending a year or two in prison for accusing him would be the "nice" thing to do?

I am also perplexed as to why she will be making her statement in Italian. If she had nothing to hide and was totally innocent of this crime, why would she need to perform an attention getting stunt like that? Nothing wrong with a monotoned interpreter stating your declaration of innocence; plus the victim's family, the victim's friends, the victim's country, your family, your friends, your hometown and your country could easily understand you as you make the most important statement of your entire life!
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Offline Yummi


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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 12:29 am   Post subject:    

The 411 wrote:

Quote:
This is NOT the statement of an innocent person.


But the question is not whether she is *innocent* , in a general sense, on any possible charge or offence. The only important question is: guilty of what? We don't know whether she is guilty in of the murder of Meredith Kercher, or if "yes" then in which degree and circumstance.
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 12:38 am   Post subject:    

Yummi wrote:
But the question is not whether she is *innocent* , in a general sense, on any possible charge or offence. The only important question is: guilty of what? We don't know whether she is guilty in of the murder of Meredith Kercher, or if "yes" then in which degree and circumstance.


First and foremost, the murder of Meredith Kercher.

Helping Rudy Guede sexually assault Meredith.

Transporting the double DNA knife from Sollecito's apartment to the cottage.

Slandering Diya Lumumba.

Tampering with the crime scene.

She might be acquitted of the theft charge.
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Offline Tara


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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 12:40 am   Post subject: Where was that scratch?   

Brian S. wrote:
Quote:
The Italian news agency ANSA quoted Stefanoni as testifying that traces of Knox's genetic code were found in a small scratch on the knife's handle, and that the point in which the genetic material was found indicates that the knife "was used to pierce and not to cut."

After Stefanoni testified, Knox's lawyer told reporters outside the courtroom that the and that the defense was considering asking the court to order DNA testing by an outside expert.


Associated Press


Hi Brian,

This is most interesting. In reports from long ago (I tried finding them but was unsuccessful, so I'm operating only from memory!), wasn't it stated that Knox's DNA was found on the hilt of the knife? Or, where one would need to exude the most pressure?

I wonder where that scratch on the knife was.
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 12:41 am   Post subject: Re: Norma, a woman of 50!   

Tara wrote:
Great post 411!

I love this clip where she says "I'm a star...I get hundreds of fan letters every day" - she looks like such a madwoman and what great acting!
SCENE FROM SUNSET BLVD

FINAL SCENE FROM SUNSET BLVD


Back on topic, I agree that if Knox was innocent, why would she say it was ok for the trial to take 1 year? Is she feeling remorse for what she did to Patrick Lumumba, so spending a year or two in prison for accusing him would be the "nice" thing to do?

I am also perplexed as to why she will be making her statement in Italian. If she had nothing to hide and was totally innocent of this crime, why would she need to perform an attention getting stunt like that? Nothing wrong with a monotoned interpreter stating your declaration of innocence; plus the victim's family, the victim's friends, the victim's country, your family, your friends, your hometown and your country could easily understand you as you make the most important statement of your entire life!

Hi Tara,
making a statement in Italian means that she can always claim she was "confused" because she was speaking a foreign language, also defense is hoping that it will have a positive effect the jury-it's cultural thing, Italians do not get impatient when they hear someone struggling with the language, actually it hits a soft spot; they love it when foreigners attempt to speak Italian. Indeed it would make much more sense if she spoke her native language in order to make sure that she would get the message across. Defense must be desperate if they have to resort to this!
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Offline indie


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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 12:45 am   Post subject:    

The Machine wrote:
nicki wrote:
Hi TM,
it looks like the info is reliable, the Italian press has not reported it but it's not so strange, usually they like to wrap up all the news after the hearings have concluded. If true, it's very damning. I'm curious to see how defense is going to explain it!


I don't see how they can explain it. Petafly is right; it's game over.



It ain't over 'til the fat lady sings. I'm just sayin'.
p-(((
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Offline Yummi


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Location: Bunga-Bunga Republic

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 12:48 am   Post subject:    

The Machine wrote:

Quote:
First and foremost, the murder of Meredith Kercher.

Helping Rudy Guede sexually assault Meredith.

Transporting the double DNA knife from Sollecito's apartment to the cottage.

Slandering Diya Lumumba.

Tampering with the crime scene.

She might be acquitted of the theft charge


Yes I know those are the charges. But I don't know if we can infer a guilt on this specific points from any observing that she doesn't speak as an innocent, as in the quoted sentences by the411.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 1:01 am   Post subject:    

Simply because I have found it while looking for something else. It could become relevent in a week or two.

I wonder what Meredith's mother is going to say?

Quote:
7 novembre 2007

....Ascertained the circumstances say that the last person to hear the voice of Meredith before the encounters his murder (or his murderess) is the mother, in England. Meredith calls to 21:30 on 1 November. It is in the house (at least so says), where she returned after supper by her friend Sophie, she has seen a film on DVD ( "The Notebook" by Nick Cassavetes).

Likely (the fact is not yet established), Meredith is in that moment alone....


Google translation of this story in La Reppublica

If this phone conversation is fact, I wonder if Meredith mentioned anything about missing money??
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Offline Tara


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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 1:01 am   Post subject: How does this read?   

Hi Nicki,

I agree, the defense must be desperate to have Knox speak Italian instead of English.

I have another question for you. How should we interpret a statement like this from Andrea Vogt:

Quote:
Tests on a spot of luminol-enhanced blood in roommate Filomena Romanelli's room (where the window had been broken with a large rock) revealed mixed DNA of Kercher and Knox."


Is Ms. Vogt is confirming that a spot of luminol-enhanced blood revealed mixed DNA of BOTH Meredith's "blood" and Knox's "blood"?

In addition, when she talks about the mixed DNA of Meredith and Knox in the luminol footprints, is this a mixture of BOTH Meredith's and Amanda's "blood" DNA?

I'm not getting this. :?
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2308

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 1:03 am   Post subject:    

Yummi wrote:
Yes I know those are the charges. But I don't know if we can infer a guilt on this specific points from any observing that she doesn't speak as an innocent, as in the quoted sentences by the411.


The point 411 was making is that somebody who had nothing to do with Meredith's murder would consider every single last day, hour minute that they were incarcerated to be only an enormous and intolerable injustice.

I would add that somebody who had nothing to do with Meredith's murder would not give multiple alibis and lie repeatedly.
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 1:04 am   Post subject:    

Yummi wrote:
The Machine wrote:

Quote:
First and foremost, the murder of Meredith Kercher.

Helping Rudy Guede sexually assault Meredith.

Transporting the double DNA knife from Sollecito's apartment to the cottage.

Slandering Diya Lumumba.

Tampering with the crime scene.

She might be acquitted of the theft charge


Yes I know those are the charges. But I don't know if we can infer a guilt on this specific points from any observing that she doesn't speak as an innocent, as in the quoted sentences by the411.


Dear Yummi,
one might not infer guilt from behavioral observations, but I guess you must agree that all this "circumstantial" evidence piling up is a bit too much to be explained as a" coincidence" and "a result of contamination". What do you make of the latest report of the mixed blood in Romanelli's bedroom? A clumsy cop stepping on blood once again? Or perhaps Knox's pierced ears profusely bleeding all over the apartment?
Mi sembra un pò una presa per il culo.
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2308

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 1:12 am   Post subject:    

indie wrote:
It ain't over 'til the fat lady sings. I'm just sayin'.
p-(((


The fat lady is clearing her throat at the moment. She'll be singing loud and clear sometime in October or November.
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 1:14 am   Post subject: Re: How does this read?   

Tara wrote:
Hi Nicki,

I agree, the defense must be desperate to have Knox speak Italian instead of English.

I have another question for you. How should we interpret a statement like this from Andrea Vogt:

Quote:
Tests on a spot of luminol-enhanced blood in roommate Filomena Romanelli's room (where the window had been broken with a large rock) revealed mixed DNA of Kercher and Knox."


Is Ms. Vogt is confirming that a spot of luminol-enhanced blood revealed mixed DNA of BOTH Meredith's "blood" and Knox's "blood"?

In addition, when she talks about the mixed DNA of Meredith and Knox in the luminol footprints, is this a mixture of BOTH Meredith's and Amanda's "blood" DNA?

I'm not getting this. :?

Hi Tara, she is saying that Luminol revealed blood containing both girls' DNA-that is if Vogt got it right . I still don't see it on the Italian press, but we'll probably read it tomorrow.So far, all we get here is that there hasn't been any contamination, and the DNA on the knife is Meredith-and the clasp couldn't possibly have been contaminated and the DNA fully matched Sollecito, without any doubt.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 1:33 am   Post subject:    

Found it! :D

I can't provide a link cos it comes via Damian from Il Giornal dell'Umbria {they don't keep history on the net}. :cry:

Quote:
There's alot of new stuff in the Gionale del Umbria today. This is a local paper and the things in it today have not been reported anywhere else. (yet!?) Some of it is in speech marks, indicating that they are quotes from the police.
A little summary would go like this;
The stone (supposedly) used to break the window (in Filomena's room) was left there.
In the same room, (which was trashed to simulate the robbery and of which there is a photo) there is a 'zona particularmente fluorescente ma estremamente diffusa all'interno della stanza'. (a large flourescent area inside the room) This is obviously after they put luminol there. (could someone tell me exactly what this stuff 'highlights'?) This quote is also in speech marks in the article. The journalist says that this maybe means the perp(s) went into this room (to simulate the robbery) before cleaning themselves.

There are five bare footprints in AK's room and another near Meredith's room.
In AK's room they found a pair of 'calzini antiscivolo', socks (not sure what the anti-slip bit means, maybe the small socks you wear with shorts, but I'm not sure). They are white with a red stripe. Rather cryptically, the article continues by saying that another pair of socks were found in Meredith's room, one under the desk and the other in the middle of the room.
The floor of the house was cleaned with bleach. The police believe one of the two mops in the house was used to do this.
There are more details about these things...I'll try and post them when I get time. (but would prefer it if other papers reported them...just for confirmation)
Make of it what you will.
Everything here is from IL Giornale del Umbria 16/01/2008 Fiorucci.
damian | 01.16.08 - 11:20 am | #


Haloscan
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Offline Shirley


Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:48 pm

Posts: 376

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 2:26 am   Post subject:    

Brian S. wrote:
Simply because I have found it while looking for something else. It could become relevent in a week or two.

I wonder what Meredith's mother is going to say?

Quote:
7 novembre 2007

....Ascertained the circumstances say that the last person to hear the voice of Meredith before the encounters his murder (or his murderess) is the mother, in England. Meredith calls to 21:30 on 1 November. It is in the house (at least so says), where she returned after supper by her friend Sophie, she has seen a film on DVD ( "The Notebook" by Nick Cassavetes).

Likely (the fact is not yet established), Meredith is in that moment alone....


Google translation of this story in La Reppublica

If this phone conversation is fact, I wonder if Meredith mentioned anything about missing money??



Or who was at the cottage?
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Offline The 411


User avatar


Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:49 pm

Posts: 1386

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 2:50 am   Post subject: Re: Norma, a woman of 50!   

Tara wrote:
Great post 411!

I love this clip where she says "I'm a star...I get hundreds of fan letters every day" - she looks like such a madwoman and what great acting!
SCENE FROM SUNSET BLVD

FINAL SCENE FROM SUNSET BLVD


Tara: (OT)
Great selections from such a memorable film. Hadn't seen that one particular scene, in ages.
Here's a great quote from that first video you provided:
"Norma, you're a woman of 50!!--NOW GROW UP!" THERE'S NOTHING
TRAGIC ABOUT 50, not unless you're trying to be 25!"
Wise words for any of us nearing the half century mark!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Back on topic, I agree that if Knox was innocent, why would she say it was ok for the trial to take 1 year? Is she feeling remorse for what she did to Patrick Lumumba, so spending a year or two in prison for accusing him would be the "nice" thing to do?

I am also perplexed as to why she will be making her statement in Italian. If she had nothing to hide and was totally innocent of this crime, why would she need to perform an attention getting stunt like that? Nothing wrong with a monotoned interpreter stating your declaration of innocence; plus the victim's family, the victim's friends, the victim's country, your family, your friends, your hometown and your country could easily understand you as you make the most important statement of your entire life!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TARA:
I think her need to testify stems from Amanda"-it's-gotta-be-all-about-me-"Knox's narcissism.
See, how special I am. I am the center of this case, not the murdered girl. I'm "Italy's Woman of the Year." How can I deprive the people of my specialness." Heck, my testifying will also be material for a riveting chapter in my soon-to-be-published book., about ME. It's the Amanda Knox trial, you know. So, I have to testify.


Remember, a true sociopath is willing to take all kinds of risks, anyway, and she probably believes that she can charm her way out of anything., seduce the jury into feeling warm and fuzzy feelings for her. And then those male jurors, woah, look out, they'll be so dazzled by her Helen of Troy beauty, they won't even remember to deliberate on the pesky evidence against her.
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Offline indie


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Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:15 am

Posts: 383

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 3:14 am   Post subject:    

The Machine wrote:
indie wrote:
It ain't over 'til the fat lady sings. I'm just sayin'.
p-(((


The fat lady is clearing her throat at the moment. She'll be singing loud and clear sometime in October or November.


As long as it is not "Let it Be" we will all be listening!
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Offline The 411


User avatar


Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:49 pm

Posts: 1386

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 3:14 am   Post subject:    

nicki wrote:
Yummi wrote:
The Machine wrote:

Quote:
First and foremost, the murder of Meredith Kercher.

Helping Rudy Guede sexually assault Meredith.

Transporting the double DNA knife from Sollecito's apartment to the cottage.

Slandering Diya Lumumba.

Tampering with the crime scene.

She might be acquitted of the theft charge


Yes I know those are the charges. But I don't know if we can infer a guilt on this specific points from any observing that she doesn't speak as an innocent, as in the quoted sentences by the411.


Dear Yummi,
one might not infer guilt from behavioral observations, but I guess you must agree that all this "circumstantial" evidence piling up is a bit too much to be explained as a" coincidence" and "a result of contamination". What do you make of the latest report of the mixed blood in Romanelli's bedroom? A clumsy cop stepping on blood once again? Or perhaps Knox's pierced ears profusely bleeding all over the apartment?
Mi sembra un pò una presa per il culo.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nicki and Yummi...
Some may not infer guilt, but as you, Nicki, wisely alluded to..some others on the jury MAY INDEED do just that-- infer guilt.
After all, the eventual verdict is not going to be reached by some set scientific formula or algorithm. It will be arrived at by human contemplation and jury deliberations. Juries are not instructed to throw out their "common sense" and their life experiences which help them draw inferences and conclusions about the evidence, and the people on trial, WHICH INCLUDE both behavioral and the pure scientific evidence.

I don't think behavioral evidence which has any possible ALTERNATIVE innocent explanation is going to cause the jury to infer guilt. We've discussed some of these.
But there is ALSO a HUGE pile of behavioral evidence (the lying, as Machine points out is numero uno) here which a jury would be foolish to ignore, in conjunction with the DNA and other "hard" evidence.
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Offline indie


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Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:15 am

Posts: 383

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 3:25 am   Post subject:    

Brian S. wrote:
Found it! :D

I can't provide a link cos it comes via Damian from Il Giornal dell'Umbria {they don't keep history on the net}. :cry:

Quote:
There's alot of new stuff in the Gionale del Umbria today. This is a local paper and the things in it today have not been reported anywhere else. (yet!?) Some of it is in speech marks, indicating that they are quotes from the police.
A little summary would go like this;
The stone (supposedly) used to break the window (in Filomena's room) was left there.
In the same room, (which was trashed to simulate the robbery and of which there is a photo) there is a 'zona particularmente fluorescente ma estremamente diffusa all'interno della stanza'. (a large flourescent area inside the room) This is obviously after they put luminol there. (could someone tell me exactly what this stuff 'highlights'?) This quote is also in speech marks in the article. The journalist says that this maybe means the perp(s) went into this room (to simulate the robbery) before cleaning themselves.

There are five bare footprints in AK's room and another near Meredith's room.
In AK's room they found a pair of 'calzini antiscivolo', socks (not sure what the anti-slip bit means, maybe the small socks you wear with shorts, but I'm not sure). They are white with a red stripe. Rather cryptically, the article continues by saying that another pair of socks were found in Meredith's room, one under the desk and the other in the middle of the room.
The floor of the house was cleaned with bleach. The police believe one of the two mops in the house was used to do this.
There are more details about these things...I'll try and post them when I get time. (but would prefer it if other papers reported them...just for confirmation)
Make of it what you will.
Everything here is from IL Giornale del Umbria 16/01/2008 Fiorucci.
damian | 01.16.08 - 11:20 am | #


Haloscan


I wonder if by anti-slip it meant types like these:

http://www.socksolutions.co.uk/shopdata ... 25x330.jpg

http://www.sockshop.co.uk/cms_media/ima ... _76011.jpg
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Offline Tara


User avatar


Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

Posts: 1010

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 3:37 am   Post subject: Matching socks and swim cap?   

Brian S. wrote:
Found it! :D

I can't provide a link cos it comes via Damian from Il Giornal dell'Umbria {they don't keep history on the net}. :cry:

Quote:
There's alot of new stuff in the Gionale del Umbria today. This is a local paper and the things in it today have not been reported anywhere else. (yet!?) Some of it is in speech marks, indicating that they are quotes from the police.
A little summary would go like this;
The stone (supposedly) used to break the window (in Filomena's room) was left there.
In the same room, (which was trashed to simulate the robbery and of which there is a photo) there is a 'zona particularmente fluorescente ma estremamente diffusa all'interno della stanza'. (a large flourescent area inside the room) This is obviously after they put luminol there. (could someone tell me exactly what this stuff 'highlights'?) This quote is also in speech marks in the article. The journalist says that this maybe means the perp(s) went into this room (to simulate the robbery) before cleaning themselves.

There are five bare footprints in AK's room and another near Meredith's room.
In AK's room they found a pair of 'calzini antiscivolo', socks (not sure what the anti-slip bit means, maybe the small socks you wear with shorts, but I'm not sure). They are white with a red stripe. Rather cryptically, the article continues by saying that another pair of socks were found in Meredith's room, one under the desk and the other in the middle of the room.
The floor of the house was cleaned with bleach. The police believe one of the two mops in the house was used to do this.
There are more details about these things...I'll try and post them when I get time. (but would prefer it if other papers reported them...just for confirmation)
Make of it what you will.
Everything here is from IL Giornale del Umbria 16/01/2008 Fiorucci.
damian | 01.16.08 - 11:20 am | #


Haloscan


Good find Brian!

I had forgotten about those socks with the red stripe. It reminds me of Rudy's description of Sollecito's white swimcap with the red stripe he supposedly was wearing! I wonder if we'll hear more.

Since you just had to provide a link to Haloscan, I just had to click for a visit.

I found this link to a blog written by Celeste Flint. Celeste is a University of Washington student majoring in journalism. She's currently the opinion editor of UW's The Daily. She has an entry describing the dilemmas the UW paper struggled with when the murder of Meredith Kercher story broke and Amanda Knox was arrested. The UW Daily took a very ethical approach it seems, and she linked to a TIMES ONLINE 11/08/2007 STORY that according to Ms. Flint, requested to use information gleaned by the UW Daily.

Celeste Flint made the following statement prior to providing the links to the stories :

Quote:
Yet, Italy was too far away to cover the story ourselves. The solution was to take the hard information from a few different news sources, including BBC, and then accurately quote her friends.

The London Times requested permission to print our story. I guess it pays to be credible
.




Here is an excerpt from the Times Online story:

Quote:
Amanda Knox posted short stories on her MySpace page about drugging and raping a young woman and photographing a woman in bed without her knowledge.

The page, on which she is known as “Foxy Knoxy”, is filled with photographs of Ms Knox with her friends and accounts of her trips in Europe. It also states that she is single even though she had been going out with her fellow suspect, Raffaele Sollecito. In one story, called Baby Brother, two brothers discuss the rape.

Colin Gregg, a former friend who once took Ms Knox to the school prom, told The Times that she had changed radically after leaving school.

“The Amanda I knew at prep would never have done such a thing, but in the three years between when I last saw her there and when I saw her at university she changed so much that I cannot honestly say one way or another what I believe she could or could not do.

“The girl I knew and was friends with was a sweet, innocent girl who loved playing soccer and singing in choir. But people change, especially once they leave a rather sheltered preparatory school and enter university
.”


CELESTE FLINT'S BLOG ENTRY, "ETHICAL DILEMMAS REGARDING THE AMANDA KNOX STORY"
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Offline strano_cammino


Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 3:14 pm

Posts: 16

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 5:26 am   Post subject:    

Just another observation: the other day my toilet got clogged. I am traveling and the toilets here apparently can't take a lot of toilet paper (or big No. 2s?). I tried flushing numerous times but to no avail. As I had to go out, I decided to just let the toilet be and check on it when I would get back, hoping that the whole toiletpaper/feces would have somehow dissolved over time.

Let me tell you, when I got back after about 3 hours I literally GAGGED because of the smell! Luckily, after a few more tries the toilet finally flushed.

This made me think: there is absolutely NO WAY that Amanda would just let Rudy's feces sit in the toilet while even blow-drying her hair! If my own waste already smelled so horrible after only 3 hours that it disgusted me immensely, how could Amanda happily look at stinking feces in the toilet, feces of a STRANGER or at least not of her own, blow-dry her hair, and then leave WITHOUT flushing it!? Especially thinking that this feces must have been there for a whole night or at least numerous hours, I don't even want to imagine the smell and I absolutely do not believe that ANYONE would not immediately try to flush such a thing!

Unless of course the toilet would have the same flushing-issues as mine did, but in that case I think Amanda would have mentioned that in her statements.
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Offline Catnip


User avatar


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Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 5:43 am   Post subject:    

Perugia News Digest 22 May 2009

A day of testimony from any witness can never be adequately summarised by one newspaper article, never mind a DNA expert witness.

However, having said that, and in addition to Nicki’s précis (here), which carries the gist of the day in court, here is an extended summary of those newspaper summaries that I have been able to find so far.
Original versions are archived starting at link [ here ].
Numbers refer to notes at the end.


Item
Soundbites

Knife and bra-clasp: Everyone’s in court to hear biologist Patrizia Stefanoni’s testimony today (17)
Amanda’s DNA was found in a scratch on the handle of the knife thought to be the murder weapon. The victim’s DNA was found on the blade. The Knox defence is contesting the minute quantity of biological material from which the DNA was recovered. (14, 15)


Item
Witnesses

Four expert witnesses will be called for 22 and 23 May 2009, coming close to the end of the long list of approximately 90 witnesses for the prosecution (2, 6, 17), whose case should be concluding at the end of next week (3). This week there are:
- considered a key witness by all parties (3), biologist Patrizia Stefanoni, from the Forensic Genetic Investigations section of the Scientific Police, Central Anti-crime Directorate in the Department of Public Security (2, 3): a whole day will be devoted to her testimony alone (3, 6). She has already testified, for about 8 hours, at the preliminary hearing (17).

The other three witnesses analysed blood traces to reconstruct the position of the victim’s body (3):
- Francesco Camana, Chief Technical Officer (Physics), from the Ballistics Investigations section of the Scientific Police – he will be heard on the results obtained from the blood traces (2)
- Giuseppe Codisposti, Director of the Violent Crime Analysis Unit of the Scientifica – on the second crime scene examination (2), and
- Piero Sbardella, Chief Assistant in the same unit – on the footprint found on the pillow (2)

Rudy’s defence team, Walter Biscotti and Nicodemo Gentile, were also in court (6, 17).



Item
Patrizia Stefanoni’s day in court

Biologist Patrizia Stefanoni will be the sole witness in court on 22 May 2009 and she will be answering questions about the operational methodologies followed by Forensics, the items collected, and the results obtained. (1, 2, 3, 4, 16) She will also be asked about the possibility of contamination, especially on the bra clasp and on the knife that the prosecution alleges was the murder weapon (2, 4). The Sollecito defence team has continually maintained that the evidence was accidentally contaminated during the collection stage (3), and complain that the bra clasp, identified immediately following the discovery of the body, was collected some time after (3).

- Stefanoni spent 8 hours (or: more than 9 hours (11)) on the stand (10): all day (16)
- She will have to come in on Saturday 23 May as well (11, 13)
- She used technical terms but also sought to make her analysis easily understandable (10)
- It was very technical and detailed (17)
- 460 (or 470 (7)) pieces of biological evidence were analysed by Forensics (5, 8, 9, 10, 12, 16, 17):
- only a few, the ones thought most important in “the murder reconstruction”, were discussed in court (7)
- 228 of them were legal acquisitions, coming from six crime scene examinations: the murder house and the residences of the accused (5): Sollecito’s car and apartment, and Guede’s apartment (8, 9, 12, 17)

DNA
- DNA test results are only useful if there is the possibility of comparison with other, known, subjects (5, 9, 12, 16, 17): “The traces do not tell us the name and surname of the subjects to which they belong, much less (or: nor) their physical appearance” (5, 9, 12, 17), or: The examination of DNA can be useful when being compared to a specific individual but “it does not supply the name and surname of the suspect” (10)
- She emphasised however that “no two individuals have the same genetic code unless they are homozygotic [i.e., identical] twins” (10, 17)

Procedures
- The Scientifica (=Forensics) “followed internationally-recognised procedures, using leading-edge equipment” (17, indirect speech in 10)
- “In any crime scene examination, collecting everything, that is everything relevant, is practically impossible. That’s why there are various selection steps. Visible traces are catalogued first, and then latent ones are looked for” (7)
- “There were visible bloodied prints in the house, leading away, getting fainter, from the room towards the front door. We also found prints of bare feet using Luminol thanks to a fluorescent reagent” (7)
- In the murder house, Forensics worked from the inside out, starting with the victim’s room (5, 16), obviously (16); then the other rooms, using a special camera (16)
- Besides the break-ins at the cottage, and the forensic examinations that took place between 2007 and February 2009, everything was captured [congelato] using special means from the time of the first entry into the house (7): Each room was captured on Spheron (a kind of rotating global-view 360-degree video camera), allowing a high-definition re-examination of the crime scene at any time (5, 9, 12, 16): “We photographed the entire environment of the murder house using a special camera, called ‘Spheron’, which captures 360 degrees. That way we froze the rooms after the evidence collection phase [prelievi]” (7), and this allows the crime scene to be viewed in the lab (9) at any time (16).

Rudy
- Rudy Guede’s organic material was on vaginal and anal swabs taken from the victim’s body (7)
- “Differentiation analysis attempts to separate the victim’s genetic material from that of the presumed external aggressor. In sexual violence cases, cells from the victim and sperm are found. We got a negative result with this kind of typological analysis. We therefore expanded the tests – as is done when there is violent death – focussing our efforts exclusively on Y-chromosome analysis: in this manner, we were able to pin down Rudy Guede’s genetic profile on the vaginal swab. I can exclude that Meredith and Rudy had anal sex, whether violent or consensual”. The same Y chromosome was also found on the victim’s bra. (7)

Meredith
- Meredith was not able to scratch or harm her killers (7): She was restricted, as the injuries show, to trying to avoid the knife blade which pierced her neck at multiple points (7): “I personally did the analysis on Meredith Kercher’s hands and there were no skin fragments or other elements under her nails that would help identify the genetic profile of the killers. Either she wasn’t able to scratch anyone because she was defending herself from the attackers, or else her nails were actually quite short and not capable of trapping skin and hair” (7)

Bra clasp
- Sollecito’s DNA, mixed with the victim’s (in a ratio of 6 to 1, MK to RS (17, 18)), was on the clasp of the bra Meredith was wearing when she was killed (10)
- Responding to questions from Bongiorno and Maori (acting for Sollecito) (to describe the steps leading to its discovery (17)), Stefanoni explained the bra clasp was found and photographed (on the night of 2/3 November (17)) during the crime scene examination following the discovery of the body on 2 November 2007, on the floor under a pillow under the body (12, 17, 18; 10 has a probable typo: “on the floor covered by a pillow under which lay the body”) . It was collected on 18 December 2007, 46 days later (17)), 1 to 1.5 metres away, near the desk in Meredith’s room, from under a mat (10, 12, 17, 18) which had “traces presumably haematic” on it (17, 16).
- The Sollecito defence suggested accidental contamination may have occurred in the period from 2 November to 18 December (18)
- Responding to Bongiorno’s (many (17)) questions about possible contamination, Stefanoni explained that DNA transfer, even in the abstract, “is not foregone and settled, nor so simple” (10, 17), saying it was possible if the trace were of “aqueous” origin “but not if it were dry”. (10)
or:
- The Sollecito defence showed a film in court made by forensics during the crime scene examinations, which shows one of the experts touching the bra-clasp by [gloved] hand: in particular, Bongiorno put it to the witness that from the video it was possible that two different objects could have been collected without a change of gloves. Patrizia Stefanoni then averred that it is possible a transfer of DNA could occur in cases of aqueous traces but not dry ones. “DNA transfer is not settled, and not so easily, but it is tied to the age and characteristics of the trace” (18) The witness therefore excluded the possibility that this could prove the evidence was contaminated during the evidence collection phase [repertazione]. (18)
- As for the bra-clasp being recovered from a place different to where it was found, Stefanoni spoke of accidental “translocation”, excluding [the possibility] that that could be the cause of any contamination. (10) For the defence, this could prove accidental contamination (12).
- Maori said (afterwards?): “The bra clasp was recovered after the room had been turned upside down” (10)
- The Sollecito defence contested the interpretation of the data used to attribute the DNA to Sollecito (10), Bongiorno contesting the identification of the DNA as Sollecito’s (17)), while the biologist confirmed it (10).
- Bongiorno (to the press?): It’s a case of “definitely contaminated evidence” and therefore of data which “according to the prosecution’s biologist can be read in a different way”, making the DNA on the victim’s bra-clasp “not attributable” to Raffaele Sollecito. “This whole case, and Sollecito’s imprisonment, is tied almost exclusively to what up till now has been claimed as definitive: the DNA evidence on the bra-clasp. Today, having seen the diagrams which ought to show his genetic profile, the proffered interpretations were abundantly clear”. “Leaving this aside, it was the same prosecution biologist who said that various pieces of data could be read differently. And this includes excluding Sollecito’s profile. Anyway, they’re finishing up with the prosecution witnesses, but it’s starting to appear obvious the prosecution’s picture is inconsistent.” (17)

Kitchen Knife
- Meredith’s DNA was on the blade of the knife (10, 13, 17)
- Knox’s DNA was identified in an approximately 2cm scratch on the plastic handle of a kitchen knife alleged by the prosecution to be the murder weapon (13, 17)
- Knox’s DNA was on a part of the handle, in such a way that it is possible to hypothesise that the knife was being held “to puncture and not to cut” (10, 13, 17): “Because this is to be determined [? by the court, si sia verificato questo], it is not up to me to say so.” (13, 17)
- The Knox defence contested the scarcity of material from which the DNA was recovered, and hence the unreliability of the result (10, 13, 17)
- (Afterwards?) One of the lawyers, Ghirga, did not exclude the possibility that a super-expert will be called on this point (10)


The lawyers have their say

Ghirga (for Knox):
“We will see, at the conclusion of the testimony (at the end of our cross-examination, which is still in progress (17)), whether we need to call a super expert witness on these two matters (the bra clasp and the knife (17)). With great respect to the work of Doctor Stefanoni, on the merits, we have differing theses, which have the right to exist scientifically” (11) “Nothing has changed since the preliminary hearing. The positions remain pure and simple opposed at the scientific level” (17)

Bongiorno (for Sollecito):
“Everyone is supposing that DNA is irrefutable proof, but when, as today, it emerges that this DNA came out 46 days later, from a clasp that went on a tour of the room, and with an interpretation that could possibly in reality be full of errors, I believe that this brings into consideration that, for the State, the inconsistency of the probative picture came out in an evident way” (11) The contamination of that piece of evidence “came about absolutely involuntarily either by means of the bra fragment’s displacement or because gloves which had never been changed were clenched on the clasps where Sollecito’s DNA would have been found.” (11)

Maresca (for the Kerchers):
Stefanoni’s testimony “was quite specific on the trustworthiness and reliability of the main evidence”, a “fundamental element” of the prosecutorial reconstruction. “However, very technical aspects remain to be covered, and they will be done tomorrow” (17).



Item
Art Show

At Terni prison, where Sollecito used to be (he’s at Perugia now), a painting of his is on show in the rooms of the Diocesan Museum, on sale along with those of other inmates, with the proceeds going to the [earthquake-stricken] Abruzzese people (16).


[hr]
Notes
1 – “Hearing resumes: Forensic biologist – key tests” [Tiscali] 21 May 2009
2 – “Hearing resumes tomorrow, forensics experts in court” [AGI] 21 May 2009
3 – “Hearing resumes with biologist testimony” [Nazione] 21 May 2009
4 – “Forensic biologists testifies in case” [AGI] 22 May 2009
5 – “460 pieces of evidence analysed in lab” [AGI] 22 May 2009
6 – “Hearing resumes, forensic biologist in court” [Unione Sarda] 22 May 2009
7 – “Biologist: Meredith did not scratch her killers” [Tiscali] 22 may 2009
8 – “460 biological traces: from Sollecito’s car, the murder house, Guede’s apartment” [ANSA] 22 May 2009
9 – “Forensics analyses 460 biological traces” [Italia Informazioni] 22 May 2009
10 – “Court battle over Sollecito-Knox DNA”, by Claudio Sebastiani [ANSA] 22 May 2009
11 – “Forensic biologist testimony continues tomorrow” [AGI] 22 May 2009
12 – “460 biological traces examined by forensics” [ADN Kronos] 22 May 2009
13 – “Amanda’s DNA on murder weapon” [Gazzetta di Parma] 22 May 2009
14 – “Amanda DNA on knife handle” [Panorama] 22 May 2009
15 – “Amanda DNA on knife handle” [ANSA] 22 May 2009
16 – “460 biological traces under forensic microscope” [ASCA] 22 May 2009
17 – “Forensic biologist testifies in court” by Arianna Luciani
[Fondazione] 22 May 2009
18 – “Sollecito defence pursues clasp contamination” [AGI] 22 May 2009
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 5:51 am   Post subject:    

Quote:
strano wrote:

"This made me think: there is absolutely NO WAY that Amanda would just let Rudy's feces sit in the toilet while even blow-drying her hair! If my own waste already smelled so horrible after only 3 hours that it disgusted me immensely, how could Amanda happily look at stinking feces in the toilet, feces of a STRANGER or at least not of her own, blow-dry her hair, and then leave WITHOUT flushing it!? Especially thinking that this feces must have been there for a whole night or at least numerous hours, I don't even want to imagine the smell and I absolutely do not believe that ANYONE would not immediately try to flush such a thing! "


Amanda's story is "stinking", the very least to say.
I don't believe that Rudy's deposit was resting there for some twelwe hours and then suddenly slipped down.
I think that Amanda invented this to direct the attention of the police (and possibly Raffaele's).


Anyway, have they found any fingerprints on the hairdryer?
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Offline Mutley


User avatar


Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:38 pm

Posts: 71

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 7:15 am   Post subject:    

No doubt Bongiourno will be making much more of the 'travels' of the bra clasp and how it picked up DNA souveniers as it went. But if Guede did it alone then it was him who cut the bra. So why is his DNA NOT on the clasp? He didn't wear gloves because he left other prints and DNA. Is there a difference in the stickiness quota of different DNA? Does 'African-American' keep slipping off objects while Italian is like superglue with wings, flys around a bit looking for a home and then latches on and never lets go? AK's DNA is apparently as loose as she is. It imposes itself everywhere while that of the other flatmates does not. Why is THEIR DNA NOT mixed with blood? They lived there too and theirs should have been hanging around waiting for a lift as well.

Why does the innocent knife NOT have the fish DNA that FOA were trumpeting so loudly? I live on my own and I admit that I only wash up with regular washing-up liquid. My knives never get cleaned half as well as this one, abrasive scratches and all. These were students. A group never noted for obsession with cleaning cutlery or kitchens or anything else particularly well. Yet suddenly students who had previously had an averson to doing their share of cleaning and who are happy to take a shower in a blood stained bathroom and to dry their hair to the delicate smell of unflushed faeces, develop a desire to clean a knife so thoroughly that abrasive scratches are created. If it was RS' knife in his kitchen, why is his DNA missing? It was pretty sticky for the bra clasp. Oh those scratches and pitting. You missed a bit!

I don't think shouting ''Contamination!'' from the rooftops and especially to the tabloids is going to do it. There have been murder convictions on ONE piece of DNA evidence. Here there are plenty. Each and every mixed blood sample must be explained away. Each footprint must be resized to Guede. Guede must grow extra arms to restrain the victim and wield two knives at the same time. He must learn to do the longjump so that missing prints were not cleaned away, they were never there. AK's DNA must be left lying all over the place because she lived there while those of the flatmates must be allowed to all blow out the window.

It's not going to work. Those amateur dramatics in prison are not going to create an actress capable of putting on a performance that will cancel out the circumstantials let alone the forensics.
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2308

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 8:50 am   Post subject:    

There was a a line from Andrea Vogt's article about Stefanoni's testimony that leapt out at me:

"Stefanoni, however, responded that the one test she did "reliably" identified the trace as Kercher's." (Andrea Vogt, The Seattle Post-Intelligencer).

I remembered something significant from one of the hearing's last year. Patrizia Stefanoni had categorically stated on Italian television that Meredith's DNA was on the double DNA knife. However, Frank and Knox's lawyers did their level best to muddy the waters and pretend there were huge doubts about this piece of evidence.

"So it looks like a terrible news for Amanda and Raffaele. A news that nobody noticed since everyone was obsessed with the bra.
But a news denied by Amanda's defense which explained then privately that the Dna on the blade will not be admitted in the evidence. According to them Stefanoni stated that the DNA on the knife is NOT RELIABLE at all
." (Frank Sfarzo, Perugia Shock).

If Knox's lawyers actually told Frank privately that the double DNA wasn't going to be entered as evidence and the DNA on the knife wasn't reliable, then they were lying and deliberately trying to misinform the public .

I was surprised at the time that Frank emphasised that the DNA on the knife wasn't reliable because it completely contradicted what Patrizia Stefanoni had stated on Italian television. He deliberately chose to draw attention Knox's lawyers inaccurate comments rather than Patrizia Stefanoni's certainty that it was Meredith's DNA on the double DNA knife.

For months Knox's supporters were claiming that Patrizia Stefanoni had stated in private the DNA wasn't reliable. They also claimed the knife wasn't going to be entered as evidence. Television presenter Juju Chang said that the knife evidence had been essentially ruled on ABC News.

There has been a deliberate attempt to manipulate and misinform the general public about the case.
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Offline mojo


Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:31 pm

Posts: 225

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 8:57 am   Post subject:    

so.....duelling experts, that's all Ghirga and Buongiorno got??

totally ignoring all the lies, the changing stories, amanda's fingering Patrick, the weird behavior, the EVIDENCE.....the defense reminds me of the ole Shakespeare quote about protesting too much. i'm looking forward to this tap dance.

i'm now beginning to understand the FOA mentality. if you say something enough times with enough conviction, then it's true! voila...case closed.
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Offline mojo


Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:31 pm

Posts: 225

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 8:59 am   Post subject:    

The Machine wrote:
There has been a deliberate attempt to manipulate and misinform the general public about the case.


didn't we always think that?? altho' it is nice to have it confirmed. 8-)
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2308

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 9:08 am   Post subject:    

mojo wrote:
The Machine wrote:
There has been a deliberate attempt to manipulate and misinform the general public about the case.

didn't we always think that?? altho' it is nice to have it confirmed. 8-)


Hi Mojo,

Yes, I've repeatedly made this point, but I thought it was important to draw attention Frank's and Knox's lawyers comments after Patrizia Stefanoni's testimony last year. Their comments completely undermine their trustworthiness. I wonder if it was Knox's lawyers that Stewart Home met...
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Offline petafly


Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:08 pm

Posts: 278

Location: Switzerland/Germany

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 9:36 am   Post subject:    

mojo wrote:
so.....duelling experts, that's all Ghirga and Buongiorno got??

totally ignoring all the lies, the changing stories, amanda's fingering Patrick, the weird behavior, the EVIDENCE.....the defense reminds me of the ole Shakespeare quote about protesting too much. i'm looking forward to this tap dance.

Yeah, the defense is pathetic!
I'm sure behind the curtain they have a straight talk already, cause Buongiorno hates to look bad. And, wheew, she does look bad right now! And, for sure, she isn't keen on "resizing each footprint to Guede" (what a phrase Mutley :lol: ).
I hear her say: "Raffaele, we have to speak. If you don't help us, we can't help you! You gave us nothing to work with!"

But what can he say?
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Offline Mutley


User avatar


Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:38 pm

Posts: 71

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 9:40 am   Post subject:    

When are certain US press / tv outlets going to stop giving the Knox / Mellas clan such an easy ride with fluffy interviews and the opportunity to put out propaganda. The press uses and is used in turn but they have been repeatedly lied to. The rubbish about the knife being excluded as evidence is one of the more brazen. But simply repeating the FOA propaganda is now so at odds with the reality that it surely cannot continue. Using the accused's family as a source is doubtful enough. To use them to report wild claims and smears as facts is even worse. But to then have to report the contradictory reality as it emerges destroys their own reputation for journalism. Or will they just go the whole way and be the FOA mouthpiece and avoid reference to unpalatable facts right to the end for the sake of consistency?
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Offline Yummi


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Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:29 pm

Posts: 975

Location: Bunga-Bunga Republic

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 9:55 am   Post subject:    

Quote:
A clumsy cop stepping on blood once again? Or perhaps Knox's pierced ears profusely bleeding all over the apartment?
Mi sembra un pò una presa per il culo.


Ehm... maybe just a little. Yes if you mean this as "behavioral evidence". But in fact many of those behaviours are another topic. About the guilt, I was answetring to the411's comment "she doesn't speak as an innocent"
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Offline budapesti


Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 1:51 pm

Posts: 16

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 9:56 am   Post subject:    

Will there be any more court events today? I read somewhere about the trial continuing on Saturday but I am not sure if this is reliable.
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2308

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 10:02 am   Post subject:    

budapesti wrote:
Will there be any more court events today? I read somewhere about the trial continuing on Saturday but I am not sure if this is reliable.


Hi Budapesti,

There is a hearing today. Patrizia Stefanoni is testifying again. She has excluded the possibility of contamination.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 10:55 am   Post subject:    

Nicki wrote:
For those of you who are wondering about the new "Gente" article, I have bought a copy of the magazine and between a set of pictures of Julia Roberts' protruding belly on an Hawaiian beach ( she gets an A+ from the magazine, notwithstanding her "roundness) and a local soap actress beauty advice in order to look at the top next summer, I've found the article about the Perugia case, titled "We know why Amanda is innocent".

The defense is basically repeating what we all know very well by now: scarce material, contamination due to the repeated "analyses" . First they say the sample has been "studied" 187 times, whatever that means. Then they say the DNA has been"amplified 500 times".....


Nicki wrote:
In the lab, we try to " photocopy" the original DNA by "amplification". Obviously, if a contaminant is present in the sample, that will be amplified as well.That is basically what defense is claiming. If forensic scientists have used an experimental protocol that uses 500 cycles of amplification I'm very curious to learn how the technique works, since it is known that after the plateau is reached (max 60 cycles in some cases), there's no point to continue.



Quote:
In laboratory "every trace organic is treated and examined individually and is' absolutely impossible to get a mixture of DNA between a track and the other". E 'as explained in the Court of Assizes of Perugia, the biologist Patrizia Stefanoni, official session genetics police forensic science in Rome, which has excluded any possibility of contamination of the exhibits during the laboratory tests conducted during the investigation sull'omicidio of English student Meredith Kercher. The biologist, felt today as a witness of the process in which defendants Amanda Knox and Raffaele urge for the murder of English student, said that during the laboratory investigations and 'been pulled 50 times "the DNA of the victim found on the blade Knife seized in the home of Raffaele urge the charge and found the weapon of the crime. The same knife where the handle, and 'been isolated DNA of Amanda Knox. The expert has noted that "within each session are made of controls" and that in carrying out the laboratory "is used disposable material."


Google translation of this story at AGI

Quote:
Before the Court of Assizes of Perugia, the biologist in charge of science has made it clear that they were extracted for 50 times "the DNA of British student...responding to one of the defenders of the student from Seattle, the lawyer Carlo Dalla Vedova, the Stefanoni said that "every trace organic is examined in a single and it is absolutely impossible to mix with each other or with those in other cases"


UnionSarda

Also at Il Messaggero

Also at ANSA:




Obviously, Amanda's defense or Gente magazine felt it necessary to misinform the public by adding a "0".

I think this reads that Meredith's DNA on the knife blade was amplified 50 times and NOT 500
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 1:08 pm   Post subject:    

From Il Messaggero, sorry no time to translate.

Tra le persone sempre presenti alle udienze c’é anche un signore, che si dice sia innamorato di Amanda.Senza dare nell’occhio è sempre lì in prima fila, silenzioso e attento a non perdere una battuta, a valutare le cose a favore della ragazza americana accusata del delitto della studentessa inglese e quelle contrarie. Sorride quando le cose vanno bene, si fa serio se tendono al meno bene.
Quindi racconta: prima dei tragici fatti incontrava Amanda tutti i giorni sulle scale mobili quando la giovane e bella americana distribuiva volantini per il locale di Patrick Lumumba, l’ormai noto pub “Le chic”.
Lì su quelle scale é iniziata prima una simpatia poi una infatuazione. Ha iniziato a salutarla con ammirazione poi ha iniziato a scambiarci qualche parola.
Con lei sembra che parlasse dei problemi che affrontano gli stranieri in Italia e quindi a Perugia, ed é nata una amicizia. I meglio informati dicono che quel signore ha pagato un grosso debito alla giustizia, per aver ucciso la moglie, ed ora tornato libero ed avendo conosciuto le pene che derivano da un processo e da una condanna, vuole essere vicinoalla sua amica e con la sua presenza testimoniargli tutta le sua solidarietà e perché no la sua affettuosa amicizia.
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Offline Shirley


Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:48 pm

Posts: 376

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 1:09 pm   Post subject:    

Perhaps RS's Prison Diary can be the Super Expert?

“The fact that there is Meredith's DNA on the kitchen is because once while cooking together, I shifted myself in the house handling the knife, I had the point on her hand, and immediately after I apologized but she had nothing done to her. So the only real explanation of the kitchen knife is this.”
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Offline budapesti


Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 1:51 pm

Posts: 16

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 1:15 pm   Post subject:    

Was any DNA found in Filomena's room, and if so, where?
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2308

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 1:20 pm   Post subject:    

budapesti wrote:
Was any DNA found in Filomena's room, and if so, where?


Amanda Knox's DNA was found mixed with Meredith's blood in Filomena's room.
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Offline budapesti


Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 1:51 pm

Posts: 16

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 1:23 pm   Post subject:    

Thanks. Sorry, I should have said any of RS's DNA..
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 1:28 pm   Post subject:    

The blood in Filomena's room:


Quote:
....then on the scientific expertise that prosecutors (Pm Mignini and comfortable) and defended, you are giving battle, and the hook of the bra of Meredith Kercher victim where and' found DNA traces of urge and mixed the other tracks (of Mez and Amanda) on the knife, the alleged murder weapon (the student English and 'was killed with more' wounds to the throat - ndr-) are two''test points'', so 'as the blood spilled in the chamber located Filomena Romanelli (flatmate of Mez and Amanda), track for the prosecution and investigators, attempting to prove simulation of theft by the American couple, after the consummation of the crime.


Google translation from this story in ASCA

That's a whole new one on me. The blood in Filomena's room is part of the crime scene staging???
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Offline petafly


Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:08 pm

Posts: 278

Location: Switzerland/Germany

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 1:34 pm   Post subject:    

Shirley wrote:
Perhaps RS's Prison Diary can be the Super Expert?

“The fact that there is Meredith's DNA on the kitchen is because once while cooking together, I shifted myself in the house handling the knife, I had the point on her hand, and immediately after I apologized but she had nothing done to her. So the only real explanation of the kitchen knife is this.”

Let's be not too hard on Raffaele. It's his first murder! He simply was unexperienced... :lol:
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 1:39 pm   Post subject:    

budapesti wrote:
Thanks. Sorry, I should have said any of RS's DNA..


No. His DNA was only found in two places in the whole house.

On Meredith's bra clasp and on a cigarrette butt in the kitchen.

That being the case, even though the bra clasp was left at the house for some time, I'd love to know where any supposed contamination came from while it was in Meredith's room.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 1:44 pm   Post subject:    

Quote:
Brian wrote:
"That's a whole new one on me. The blood in Filomena's room is part of the crime scene staging??? "


In the sense that its being there suggests that Amanda entered that room after the murder.

In her version she did not enter Filomena's room before 12:20 Nov 2.
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Offline Tara


User avatar


Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

Posts: 1010

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 2:10 pm   Post subject: Bizarre   

Jools wrote:
From Il Messaggero, sorry no time to translate.

Tra le persone sempre presenti alle udienze c’é anche un signore, che si dice sia innamorato di Amanda.Senza dare nell’occhio è sempre lì in prima fila, silenzioso e attento a non perdere una battuta, a valutare le cose a favore della ragazza americana accusata del delitto della studentessa inglese e quelle contrarie. Sorride quando le cose vanno bene, si fa serio se tendono al meno bene.
Quindi racconta: prima dei tragici fatti incontrava Amanda tutti i giorni sulle scale mobili quando la giovane e bella americana distribuiva volantini per il locale di Patrick Lumumba, l’ormai noto pub “Le chic”.
Lì su quelle scale é iniziata prima una simpatia poi una infatuazione. Ha iniziato a salutarla con ammirazione poi ha iniziato a scambiarci qualche parola.

Con lei sembra che parlasse dei problemi che affrontano gli stranieri in Italia e quindi a Perugia, ed é nata una amicizia. I meglio informati dicono che quel signore ha pagato un grosso debito alla giustizia, per aver ucciso la moglie, ed ora tornato libero ed avendo conosciuto le pene che derivano da un processo e da una condanna, vuole essere vicinoalla sua amica e con la sua presenza testimoniargli tutta le sua solidarietà e perché no la sua affettuosa amicizia.


Hi Jools,

What a bizarre article...but I'm basing my opinion on a Google translation:

Quote:
Among those present at the hearings ever there is also a gentleman, said to be in love with Amanda.Senza give the eye is always there in the front row, silent and careful not to miss a beat, to assess things in favor of American girl accused of murder of English student and those opposed. Smiles when things go well, you seriously if they are at least good.

So says: Before the tragic events met Amanda every day on the escalator when the young and beautiful American flyers distributed to local Patrick Lumumba, the well-known pub "Le Chic".
There, on those scales is begun before a sympathy then infatuation. He began to greet with admiration and then began to exchange a few words.

You seem to speak of the problems facing foreigners in Italy and then to Perugia, and a friendship was born. The better informed that gentleman say that he paid a huge debt to justice for having killed his wife, and now back open and having known the penalties resulting from a process and a condemnation vicinoalla wants to be her friend and his presence witness all the solidarity and why not his affectionate friendship


Hopefully, one of our Italian experts will step in to correct any misinformation! :)
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 2:16 pm   Post subject:    

Quote:
nicki wrote:
" If forensic scientists have used an experimental protocol that uses 500 cycles of amplification I'm very curious to learn how the technique works, since it is known that after the plateau is reached (max 60 cycles in some cases), there's no point to continue."


According to my understanding the "50 times" is not the number of amplifications of the knife DNA, I think it is the number of analyses that yielded Meredith's DNA from the different traces collected in the cottage.
They executed 460 analyses and in 50 of them they identified Meredith's DNA, I guess.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 2:24 pm   Post subject:    

Quote:
Tara quoted:
" incontrava Amanda tutti i giorni sulle scale mobili quando la giovane e bella americana distribuiva volantini per il locale di Patrick Lumumba"


Hmm...
So this admirer encountered Amanda every day as she was distributing flyers for Lumumba's bar?
Was not it said that she never distributed flyers?
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Offline Fly by Night


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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 2:45 pm   Post subject: Changing World   

Mutley wrote:
When are certain US press / tv outlets going to stop giving the Knox / Mellas clan such an easy ride with fluffy interviews and the opportunity to put out propaganda. The press uses and is used in turn but they have been repeatedly lied to. The rubbish about the knife being excluded as evidence is one of the more brazen. But simply repeating the FOA propaganda is now so at odds with the reality that it surely cannot continue. Using the accused's family as a source is doubtful enough. To use them to report wild claims and smears as facts is even worse. But to then have to report the contradictory reality as it emerges destroys their own reputation for journalism. Or will they just go the whole way and be the FOA mouthpiece and avoid reference to unpalatable facts right to the end for the sake of consistency?


It has to do with the international nature of this crime. Media outlets in the USA continue to maintain a highly nationalistic us-vs.-them perspective along with a we-are-better-than-them attitude. And they do it proudly as the nature of worldwide communications changes before their eyes. Online news sources, international blogs, and international message boards (like this one) - coupled with the international monetary crisis, instigated by American greed - have permanently changed the world's economic and communications landscapes, but news outlets in the USA haven't caught on yet and it is costing them their respectability (48 Hours' "A Long Way From Home") and livelihoods (failure of the Seattle PI newspaper, among others).

Most USA media, and especially Seattle-based media, clearly don't realize that every time they interview the Knox family and its representatives it is like speaking directly with, and only with, lawyers for a defense. It's as if the year of investigation and evidence gathering by the prosecution never happened. We never heard the prosecution's side regarding how they carefully built the case by following the twisted path of lies and cover-ups, picking up whatever hard evidence they could all the way to the logical end. All we got was defamatory remarks from the Knox family and it's interests regarding the prosecutor, ILE, and Italians in general. But fair and balanced reporting doesn't really matter in this case because it's us vs. them and we are better.

The world has changed forever and they don't even know it.
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 868

Location: New York

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 3:00 pm   Post subject:    

Excellent take on the US media there FBN.
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Offline Fly by Night


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:09 pm

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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 3:00 pm   Post subject: Lone Wolf Howling   

Brian S. wrote:
That's a whole new one on me. The blood in Filomena's room is part of the crime scene staging???


Sure - Rudy must have planted it there to frame the unsuspecting couple.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 3:03 pm   Post subject:    

Thanks Bolint,

for your improved translation and understanding of the 50 samples of Meredith's DNA and the blood found in Filomena's room.
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 868

Location: New York

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 3:11 pm   Post subject:    

budapesti wrote:
Will there be any more court events today? I read somewhere about the trial continuing on Saturday but I am not sure if this is reliable.


Hi Budapesti.

Patrizia Stefanoni was under cross-examination for most of the morning. That's already reported.

In the afternoon were to be Francesco Camana, on the bloody footprints revealed with luminol, and then Giuseppe Codisposti and Piero Sbardella, who were to testify on the second collection of evidence and the prints found on the pillow.

I'm not seeing reports out yet of their testimony. Nicki will be posting on TJMK in the next day or two on the significance of what has emerged in these two days. She has posted an excellent and very clear series on the DNA.
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Offline Greggy


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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 3:33 pm   Post subject:    

Knifeboy May Beat Murder Charge


Now that the DNA evidence is being presented and testified to, I think RS has a solid chance of beating the murder rap. The MK to RS DNA ratio on the clasp (6:1) is damming (it sounds like RS was sweating when he handled it and held it for a while). But, if RS's Defense DNA Expert gives a great presentation, he may be able to confuse the Jury about the bra clasp evidence sufficiently enough to make it questionable because of its delayed collection and travel around the room. The Defense Expert will also use the video of the technician touching the clasp with a supposedly dirty glove to suggest contamination. I am a scientist that has given numerous sworn depositions and testified in court during a biotech patent dispute that we could not settle; I must report that a confident presentation and the perception of competence by a supposed scientific expert can sometimes trump the better evidence in court if the evidence is not clear-cut. Many Judges and Juries get lost very quickly wading into scientific evidence and depend on whether they like and believe the expert. Fairly often the Defense and Prosecution Scientific Experts cancel each other out if they are perceived as equally likable and competent, and the Judge and Jury then looks at other evidence to make their decision. If RS's Defense DNA Expert is very good, and this is all the DNA evidence that the Prosecution has on him, and his Defense Team also makes a complete break with Ak47, then he may have a solid chance of beating the murder rap. It does, however, seem that he will be found guilty of the Italian equivalent of obstruction of justice, because it appears he was either involved in the clean-up or pranced around the cottage knowing MK was dead in her bedroom.
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2308

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 4:06 pm   Post subject:    

Hi Greggy,

Raffaele Sollecito has no chance of being acquitted of the murder charge. It was impossible for the bra clasp to have been contaminated. Dr. Patrizia Stefanoni and other forensic experts have made that abundantly clear.

Sollecito must have to exerted considerable pressure to leave such an abundant amount of his DNA on a small piece of Meredith's underwear. There is no evidence of contamination. The defence lawyers will have to put forward a plausible scenario and they simply won't be able to do that.

As I have repeatedly pointed out, this key piece of forensic evidence won’t be considered in a vacuum, but will be placed into context. Meredith’s bra was removed quite some time after she had been killed.

You seem to be forgetting that two forensic experts testified that the bare bloody footprint on the blue bathmat match the precise characteristics of Sollecito's foot. Dr. Lorenzo Rinaldi excluded the possibility that the bare bloody footprint on the bathmat belonged to Rudy Guede. Barbie Nadeau noted the bloody footprint evidence is "damning".

Don't forget either that the double DNA knife was found in Sollecito's apartment. He unwittingly provided confirmation that Meredith's DNA was on the blade by telling the silly cock and bull story about accidentally pricking Meredith whilst cooking.

Dr. Patrizia Stefanoni is a heavyweight witness and she has delivered a knock out blow to both Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito with her expert testimony yesterday and today.

Sollecito gave mulitiple alibis and lied repeatedly. There isn't an innocent explanation for his lies. They are a clear indication of his guilt. Incidentally, Sollecito still doesn't have a credible alibi for the night of the murder.

It is game over.
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Offline Fly by Night


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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 4:21 pm   Post subject: DNA is not Swine Flu   

Greggy wrote:
The Defense Expert will also use the video of the technician touching the clasp with a supposedly dirty glove to suggest contamination.


Any defense expert will have to do far more than show a video. The mechanics of DNA transfer are not so hard for anyone to understand. It is absolutely not possible for Sollecito's DNA to have gotten on that bra clasp via the technicians glove. At one time it was suggested that someone stepped in Raffaele's spit and then stepped on the bra clasp. That is a far more plausible explanation, but then we would have Sollecito's DNA tracked around on the floor by the contaminated foot. Sollecito's DNA was only found in two places in the entire cottage - on the bra clasp and on a cigarette butt in the kitchen. For Sollecito's defense team wishful thinking dies hard - but die it will.
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Offline Greggy


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Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:10 pm

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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 4:25 pm   Post subject:    

Oh Mr. Machine,

I D-Definitely think RS is guilty. The explosive combination of RS and Ak47 catalyzed this murder.

I just think that RS has a chance at an acquittal on the murder charge, which I didn't think so before, if his Father has cobbled together a set of excellent Defense Team Experts. It was a major blunder of the Italian Police to not find their best evidence linking him to the murder until so many weeks later and then in a different place than where it was originally. One could even imply, and I think his Defense Team will - not very subtly, that when the Police found out that they didn't have anything definitive on him that they went back to the cottage and found some "evidence". They might use that suspicious late recovery event as a gateway to dirty the entire case against RS. I think Knifeboy has a chance of beating the murder charge; in contrast, I think Ak47 is toast.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 4:39 pm   Post subject:    

Two stories saying mucch the same thing about the position of Meredith when she was stabbed in the neck:

Quote:
When Meredith Kercher e 'been hit with the knife to the throat was all'armadio in front of his bedroom, with the neck at about 30-50 cm from the ground. E 'quanto rebuilt in the classroom today Francesco Camana, technical director of the main physical forensics, which has' occupied the analysis of traces of blood on the scene of the crime by providing, according to these, a likely indication of the position of the victim when and 'suffered. Camana and 'was heard as a witness today before the Court of Assizes of Perugia as part of the process in which defendants Amanda Knox and Raffaele urge for the murder of English student.
The expert, in particular, reported that he had taken into consideration, through the so-called 'Blood pattern analysis', 25 traces of blood in the cabinet doors located in the bedroom of the victim, to determine the angle of impact and then reconstruct the point of origin. All traces of blood and 'were analyzed and photographed one by one. The expert then reconstructed the location of the murder victim at the time considered "probable" that this was with the neck at about 30 - 50 centimeters from the ground when and 'suffered. On the position of the body, then, Camana spoke of various scenarios by defining the most 'plausible that he wants Meredith's body towards the floor, in front of the cabinet to anti, with your knees on the ground and stretches his legs backward.


Google translation of this story at AGI



Quote:
When he was struck by the knife which was later proved fatal neck of Meredith Kercher was forty centimeters above the floor. She was faced with an dell'armadio in her room. A reconstruction made in the Court of Assizes of Perugia from the physical science Francesco Camana that has made a study of the trajectories of drops of blood found in the room. These 25 tracks photographed and examined one by one through the so-called Blood pattern analysis. All drops were identified sull'armadio.

According to the study Camana, who directed the crime investigation section ballistic, he placed the point of origin of the blood, ie Mez's neck, at a height between 30 and 50 centimeters from the ground, believing as most likely a value of 40 centimeters. The physicist has suggested that could be the position of the body, explaining that this is "plausible" but like the others. In your experience, Meredith Camana placed with the torso forward and perhaps the face down, knees on the ground and his legs stretched backwards. According to the lawyer Francesco Maresca, legal Kercher family, this is another "important step". In his view the study shows that "the three who had worked in the space available to the entire space of the room."


Google translation of this story at Il Giornal
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Offline Mutley


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Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:38 pm

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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 4:45 pm   Post subject:    

Knifeboy May Beat Murder Charge


Now that the DNA evidence is being presented and testified to, I think RS has a solid chance of beating the murder rap. The MK to RS DNA ratio on the clasp (6:1) is damming (it sounds like RS was sweating when he handled it and held it for a while). But, if RS's Defense DNA Expert gives a great presentation, he may be able to confuse the Jury about the bra clasp evidence sufficiently enough to make it questionable because of its delayed collection and travel around the room. The Defense Expert will also use the video of the technician touching the clasp with a supposedly dirty glove to suggest contamination. I am a scientist that has given numerous sworn depositions and testified in court during a biotech patent dispute that we could not settle; I must report that a confident presentation and the perception of competence by a supposed scientific expert can sometimes trump the better evidence in court if the evidence is not clear-cut. Many Judges and Juries get lost very quickly wading into scientific evidence and depend on whether they like and believe the expert. Fairly often the Defense and Prosecution Scientific Experts cancel each other out if they are perceived as equally likable and competent, and the Judge and Jury then looks at other evidence to make their decision. If RS's Defense DNA Expert is very good, and this is all the DNA evidence that the Prosecution has on him, and his Defense Team also makes a complete break with Ak47, then he may have a solid chance of beating the murder rap. It does, however, seem that he will be found guilty of the Italian equivalent of obstruction of justice, because it appears he was either involved in the clean-up or pranced around the cottage knowing MK was dead in her bedroom.


Doesn't the lack of other samples of his dna cut both ways though? Wont it be hard to convince the court of contamination when there is no source to contaminate with? The only other sample that had his dna was the cigarette butt. So where did this more plentiful sample come from before going on the glove or other object that the clasp just bumped into during the search? The prosecution has the advantage because they go first and can head questions off and if a jury is convinced isn't it harder to then unconvince them?

But then he has the problem of how to de-couple himself from AK. He's been hedging his bets as to whether he will 'remember' her at his place. If the DNA defence case goes favourably for him presumably he will not. But he has changed his story lots of times. Wont he have to come up with something more substantial than a series of shifting alibis. The knife was found at his place and had been cleaned. There is at least one footprint matching his size. The two were inseparable after the murder. I think they have become so whether he likes it or not. He is stuck trying to keep her at arms length by failing to match her story on the one hand ready to completely drop her and sending greetings and flowers and being ready to match her story if need be on the other. If he does try to cast her adrift, how will her side react? Both of them have given indications in their diaries that they will accuse the other if they step too far out of line. I don't think this tactical dance will be lost on the court. If the dna doesn't get him, the accumulated circumstantials and the headlock that AK has him in probably will. He complains that the evidence against AK is being used against him too. I dont think that shilly shallying will stop that. Admitting a lesser role will be a huge gamble and given his shifting stories, rather unbelievable. I think they stink and sink together.


Last edited by Mutley on Sat May 23, 2009 4:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Offline Mutley


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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 4:46 pm   Post subject:    

Ohhhhhh Nooooooooo. Sorry about the quote colour.
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 868

Location: New York

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 4:50 pm   Post subject:    

Greggy wrote:
...he will be found guilty of the Italian equivalent of obstruction of justice


Sollecito is not charged with that. The charge would in any case be accessory to murder, which would attract the same sentence.

And as the Machine says, the DNA is very far from a make-or-break issue. It only seems to loom large right now,

The judges and jury have already listened to three and a half months of other evidence against him


Last edited by Fast Pete on Sat May 23, 2009 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline petafly


Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:08 pm

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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 4:50 pm   Post subject:    

You can edit it, Mutley ;)
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Offline Mutley


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Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:38 pm

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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 4:58 pm   Post subject:    

petafly wrote:
You can edit it, Mutley ;)


A bit better. I'm the guy that the question ''Have you tried switching off and on again?'' was invented for.
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Offline Brogan


Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 2:41 am

Posts: 306

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 5:24 pm   Post subject:    

I don't think the contamination of the bra clasp has much validity. The ammount of Raff's DNA has been described as abundant, so the source of that abundant trace must have been greater. I stand to be corrected but dosent DNA require some form of moisture for effective tranfer.

A forensic investigator stepping in fresh wet saliva may do it but unless that was one big pool of saliva that stayed wet until after the body was found and the investigation had begun it seems implausable. This would leave the possibility of there being another source of Raff's DNA in MK's room, how so if Raff had not entered MK's room.

The clasp was under MK's body and as the body was not moved for some considerable time. I can see how it was overlooked as it is only a little bigger than a potage stamp and even if it did move around the room the source of the contamination would have shown up aswell.

Being part of the staging and clean up may not make him a killer but the fact that he helped out a girl he had only known for a couple of weeks to attempt to cover up the crime infers his complicity in the full course of events.

If I was Raff and had played no part in the murder but had recieved a call from a casual aqaintence requesting me to help cover up a brutal murder I would be calling the police first in case I was the next victim. The last thing I would do is go near the scene of the crime or let the killer into my home . Of course I'm an adult with a degree of common sense.
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Offline Greggy


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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 5:29 pm   Post subject:    

Fly By Night,

You can easily transfer DNA in cells and confounding enzymes such as DNAases by a glove finger, so you have to be thinking about what you touch all the time. That's why technicians change gloves all the time in the lab when working with a PCR machine. It is an incredibly exquisite amplifier of DNA. That's also why lab technician DNA is sometimes picked up and amplified by a PCR machine during analysis of evidence. Listen closely to the wording scientists use to express their DNA data at trials and you will notice that possibility can be present ( i.e., no non-identified DNA was found).

That being said, with only a 6:1 ratio between MK's DNA and RS's DNA on the clasp, which probably would have been >100:1 if it was a passive transfer event, the results strongly indicate that RS touched the bra clasp, whether during or after the murder. The positive charge of the metal in the clasp may have acted somewhat as an affinity binding site for his negatively charged cells and DNA - Too bad, biochemistry got ya Knifeboy. The amount of DNA recovered would be in agreement with the description earlier of this amount as "copious". RS's Defense Team has to do everything they can to destroy the credibility of the bra clasp evidence to have a chance at an acquittal.
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Offline petafly


Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:08 pm

Posts: 278

Location: Switzerland/Germany

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 5:40 pm   Post subject:    

Quote:
The mixed blood traces were identified on the sink, on the bidet near the drain and on a box of Q-tips sitting on the sink.

"Fortunately these were found all on white surfaces, perhaps had the sink not been white ceramic or the transparent cotton box been a different color -- pink for example -- we might not have found anything with the naked eye because the traces were so diluted."

Quote:
Bleach or fruit juice for example, Ghirga said, could have created a phosphorescent luminol reaction when viewed in the dark. While it was possible, Stefanoni said, most biologists who work regularly on crime scenes can tell the difference between the bright blue glow of a blood trace versus that of other reactive substances.

Andrea Vogt Link


Last edited by petafly on Sat May 23, 2009 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Brogan


Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 2:41 am

Posts: 306

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 5:49 pm   Post subject:    

Having just had a look at a couple of other blogs on this case, I wont name them but they know who they are. Can we organise an emergency delivary of straws for them to clutch at as they seem to be running out. Best make them big ones as it's hard to grab something when your spinning that fast.
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Offline disinterested


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Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:34 pm

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Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 5:51 pm   Post subject:    

Mutley wrote:
petafly wrote:
You can edit it, Mutley ;)


A bit better. I'm the guy that the question ''Have you tried switching off and on again?'' was invented for.


Ha! Funny! Was it black on black? Tres "existentialiste"....


Last edited by disinterested on Sat May 23, 2009 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline disinterested


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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 6:01 pm   Post subject:    

New Miss R. piece up:

http://missrepresented.net/blog/
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Offline Fly by Night


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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 6:23 pm   Post subject:    

Greggy wrote:
You can easily transfer DNA in cells and confounding enzymes such as DNAases by a glove finger, so you have to be thinking about what you touch all the time.


But it would have to be from a "wet" or "live" source. The clasp is highly problematic for the Sollecito defense because, 1. there was no source for Raffaele's DNA to be found in the cottage for contaminating the clasp (even if it stuck to the bottom of an investigators shoe and wandered around the entire house - which I highly doubt happened), and 2. there was such a large sample of his DNA on the clasp that it could only have come from direct hard contact with Raffaele himself (thus, the early stories about Amanda having worn Meredith's bra and Raffaele taking it off - clearly, they know this represents a huge problem that is not easily explained away).

You can scream "contamination" at the top of your lungs all you want, but unless you can clearly demonstrate how, no one is going to believe you.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 6:40 pm   Post subject:    

Andrea Vogt in the PI:

Quote:
unflappable Stefanoni....
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Offline Jools


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 7:00 pm   Post subject: Re: Bizarre   

Tara wrote:
Jools wrote:
From Il Messaggero, sorry no time to translate.

Tra le persone sempre presenti alle udienze c’é anche un signore, che si dice sia innamorato di Amanda.Senza dare nell’occhio è sempre lì in prima fila, silenzioso e attento a non perdere una battuta, a valutare le cose a favore della ragazza americana accusata del delitto della studentessa inglese e quelle contrarie. Sorride quando le cose vanno bene, si fa serio se tendono al meno bene.
Quindi racconta: prima dei tragici fatti incontrava Amanda tutti i giorni sulle scale mobili quando la giovane e bella americana distribuiva volantini per il locale di Patrick Lumumba, l’ormai noto pub “Le chic”.
Lì su quelle scale é iniziata prima una simpatia poi una infatuazione. Ha iniziato a salutarla con ammirazione poi ha iniziato a scambiarci qualche parola.

Con lei sembra che parlasse dei problemi che affrontano gli stranieri in Italia e quindi a Perugia, ed é nata una amicizia. I meglio informati dicono che quel signore ha pagato un grosso debito alla giustizia, per aver ucciso la moglie, ed ora tornato libero ed avendo conosciuto le pene che derivano da un processo e da una condanna, vuole essere vicinoalla sua amica e con la sua presenza testimoniargli tutta le sua solidarietà e perché no la sua affettuosa amicizia.


Hi Jools,

What a bizarre article...but I'm basing my opinion on a Google translation:

Quote:
Among those present at the hearings ever there is also a gentleman, said to be in love with Amanda.Senza give the eye is always there in the front row, silent and careful not to miss a beat, to assess things in favor of American girl accused of murder of English student and those opposed. Smiles when things go well, you seriously if they are at least good.

So says: Before the tragic events met Amanda every day on the escalator when the young and beautiful American flyers distributed to local Patrick Lumumba, the well-known pub "Le Chic".
There, on those scales is begun before a sympathy then infatuation. He began to greet with admiration and then began to exchange a few words.

You seem to speak of the problems facing foreigners in Italy and then to Perugia, and a friendship was born. The better informed that gentleman say that he paid a huge debt to justice for having killed his wife, and now back open and having known the penalties resulting from a process and a condemnation vicinoalla wants to be her friend and his presence witness all the solidarity and why not his affectionate friendship


Hopefully, one of our Italian experts will step in to correct any misinformation! :)


Hi Tara,

Bizarre indeed, one more for the road!

If what the article says is true then is one more weirdoo to add to her collection. :lol:

Here is my translation:
Among those present at the trial there is also a man attending every hearing, said to be in love with Amanda Knox. He always sits in the front row, silent and careful not to miss a beat assesses things in favor or against the American girl accused of murdering the English student. Smiles when things go well, gets serious if they don’t.
Then says: Before the tragic events used to meet Knox everyday by the escalator when she handed out flyers for Patrick Lumumba’s bar the pub known as “Le Chic”. There, on those steps started first a sympathy then an infatuation. He began to greet her with admiration then began to exchange a few words.
Seems they chatted about problems foreigners encounter in Italy and Perugia, and a friendship was born. Those best informed say this man has paid a huge debt to justice for killing his wife, now back to freedom and having known the penalties resulting from a trial process and a condemnation, wants to be near his friend and with his presence show her all his solidarity and why not his affectionate friendship.
Il Messagero.
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Offline petafly


Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:08 pm

Posts: 278

Location: Switzerland/Germany

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 7:36 pm   Post subject:    

A german newspaper wanted to write about the case. Guess whom they asked: Frank Sfrazo, 40! :D And guess what: the article turned out to be NOT biased. :lol: :lol: :lol: Go and see yourself (we are mentioned too btw): Link

Sorry Frank, no money from the FOA for this one! :cry:


Last edited by petafly on Sat May 23, 2009 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 8:23 pm   Post subject:    

petafly wrote:
A german newspaper wanted to write about the case. Guess whom they asked: Frank Sfrazo, 40! :D And guess what: the article turned out to be NOT biased. :lol: :lol: :lol: Go and see yourself (we are mentioned too btw): Link

He won't get money from the FOA for this one, thats for sure!

Thanks Petafly,

:lol: :lol: "Sfarzo liked it anyway with the students, life in the day inside. He loves the youth and enthusiasm" :lol: :lol:

Any chance of translating this paragraph please?:

...Frank Sfarzo is all about the students tell it, she is home for many years. Ten every year, otherwise he would have his house can not afford. Sfarzo, light linen pants, dark jacket, sitting on the terrace of the luxury hotel Brufani and turns a cigarette. He is 40, makes this times, the times, he studied philosophy. The students came and went, one remained the same: In the first few months they paid the rent on time and cleaned the house. Then she realized what was going on in Perugia, namely "festa, festa, festa". They were hardly more at home, and Frank Sfarzo had constantly about money and Saubermachen discuss. Sfarzo liked it anyway with the students, life in the day inside. He loves the youth and enthusiasm ", the students in the otherwise barren Perugia bring. "These are my people," says Sfarzo.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 8:40 pm   Post subject:    

"...Frank Sfarzo is all about the students tell it, she is home for many years. Ten every year, otherwise he would have his house can not afford. "

The German original says that Frank can tell everything about the students, he let (rooms) to them for years, otherwise he could not afford his house.
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Offline petafly


Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:08 pm

Posts: 278

Location: Switzerland/Germany

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 8:44 pm   Post subject:    

Quote:
Any chance of translating this paragraph please?:

Sure:
Frank Sfarzo can tell you everything about the students, he hosted them for many years. 10 every year, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to afford his house. Sfarzo, in linen pants of light colour, dark jacket, sits on the terrace of the first class hotel Brufani and rolls a cigarette. He is 40, does various things for living. He studied philosophy once. The students came and went, one remained the same: In the first few months they paid the rent on time and cleaned the house. Then they discovered whats going on in Perugia, namely "festa, festa, festa". The were hardly ever at home since then, and Frank had constantly debates about money and housecleaning. Nonetheless Frank liked living with the students and taking each day as it comes. He loves the youth and their enthusiasm, which students bring to Perugia. These are my people, says Frank.


Last edited by petafly on Sat May 23, 2009 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Viv


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Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:28 am

Posts: 105

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 8:49 pm   Post subject:    

Andrea Vogt's article published today in the PIhad a comments option for, ooh, a couple of hours. I captured it a short time ago as it seemed to be a rare and marvellous thing. Turns out it was. Naughty, naughty readers.


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Offline Jools


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

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Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 8:51 pm   Post subject:    

Thanks Petafly.

He is so full of BS "these are my people" a 40 year old man!
:lol: :lol:
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Offline Lancelotti


Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:09 pm

Posts: 378

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 9:09 pm   Post subject:    

"Tests on a spot of luminol-enhanced blood in roommate Filomena Romanelli's room (where the window had been broken with a large rock) revealed mixed DNA of Kercher and Knox." Andrea Vogt

There is always something missing. Where in the room was this spot of luminol-enhanced blood?
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Offline Tara


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Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 9:24 pm   Post subject: German Article   

petafly wrote:
Quote:
Any chance of translating this paragraph please?:

Sure:
Frank Sfarzo can tell you everything about the students, he hosted them for many years. 10 every year, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to afford his house. Sfarzo, in linen pants of light colour, dark jacket, sits on the terrace of the first class hotel Brufani and rolls a cigarette. He is 40, does various things for living. He studied philosophy once. The students came and went, one remained the same: In the first few months they paid the rent on time and cleaned the house. Then they discovered whats going on in Perugia, namely "festa, festa, festa". The were hardly ever at home since then, and Frank had constantly debates about money and housecleaning. Nonetheless Frank liked living with the students and taking each day as it comes. He loves the youth and their enthusiasm, which students bring to Perugia. These are my people, says Frank.


Thank you Petafly and Bolint. A most interesting article indeed - so Frank has a boarding house? s-((
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Offline Yummi


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Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:29 pm

Posts: 975

Location: Bunga-Bunga Republic

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 9:27 pm   Post subject:    

For non-Italians:
I notice there are some mistranslations or misunderstandings about numbers from the italian "volte".

The DNA allegedly was processed in a 500-fold amplification (Gente's defense interview).
On the knife, as an item, 187 tests were performed.

In italian there is not difference in word like "fold" and "times", both are "volte" (wich is also "turns") the meaning is related to the context use of the word.

A maybe obvious comment: Gente's article is really a bad source for discussion, it looks like packed on pourpose to have the less thecnical and less precise content ever possible, giving in fact almost zero information.

Stefanoni, instead, testified that AK's DNA was recovered from 50 samples (of the 460 tested spots) in the apartment.
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2308

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 9:29 pm   Post subject:    

Lancelotti wrote:
"Tests on a spot of luminol-enhanced blood in roommate Filomena Romanelli's room (where the window had been broken with a large rock) revealed mixed DNA of Kercher and Knox." Andrea Vogt

There is always something missing. Where in the room was this spot of luminol-enhanced blood?


The floor. Unfortunately, I don't know the exact position of the spot of blood. Does it matter? I get the impression that you don't understand the significance of this piece of evidence.
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Offline BellaDonna


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Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:44 pm

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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 9:40 pm   Post subject:    

Forgive me for dwelling on a horrible detail but there's something I just don't understand. I read that Meredith was stabbed in the throat when her head was approx. 30-50cms from the ground, facing down. I would have thought that it would be rather difficult and awkward to stab someone like that.

Given that the bra was removed sometime after Meredith died, I wonder if his using a knife to cut the clasp was due to Raff being squeamish about wanting to touch a body that would be cold by that point.
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Offline Yummi


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Location: Bunga-Bunga Republic

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 9:52 pm   Post subject:    

Quote:
I don't think this tactical dance will be lost on the court. If the dna doesn't get him, the accumulated circumstantials and the headlock that AK has him in probably will. He complains that the evidence against AK is being used against him too. I dont think that shilly shallying will stop that. Admitting a lesser role will be a huge gamble and given his shifting stories, rather unbelievable. I think they stink and sink together.


But I wonder one thing more.
Rudy Guede has a strong interest in changing strategy and cooperate, IF he committed the crime in accordance with the other two. My wonder is why is *he* silent. A confession would be a huge gain for him, and at zero risk. One explanation, is that he is just delaying it, since his lawers didn't fire all their bullet yet (remember the "no evidence of sexual violence") but if all three are guilty, it would be damaging to keep this strategy trough time indefinitely.
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Offline petafly


Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:08 pm

Posts: 278

Location: Switzerland/Germany

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 10:01 pm   Post subject:    

Quote:
Forgive me for dwelling on a horrible detail but there's something I just don't understand. I read that Meredith was stabbed in the throat when her head was approx. 30-50cms from the ground, facing down. I would have thought that it would be rather difficult and awkward to stab someone like that.

It assume this was her position when the knife was pulled out and the blood poured out of the gap (Sorry, sorry, sorry, i just don't know how to say this less brutal). The actual stab could easily have been higher above the ground. (SORRY again!)
Quote:
wanting to touch a body that would be cold by that point.

The body had still a temperature of 22 ° C, at room temperature 13 ° C, 26 hours after the murder. Dead bodys cool down rather slowly... (SORRY!)
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 1:07 am   Post subject:    

Hi everyone,
I have limited Internet access right now and so am playing catch-up. Petafly, thanks for the translation from German. If "Frank Sfarzo" has been in Perugia for 10 years renting rooms out to students, then so much for Candace Dempsey's BS story about Frank moving back to Perugia from Florence when he heard about the murder. Of course, maybe her source was Frank, who seems to invent the truth as he goes along.

And Yummi, thanks for reminding us that Gente is not exactly a reliable source of information!

_________________
Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point; on le sait en mille choses.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 1:10 am   Post subject:    

Brogan wrote:

Quote:
Having just had a look at a couple of other blogs on this case, I wont name them but they know who they are. Can we organise an emergency delivary of straws for them to clutch at as they seem to be running out. Best make them big ones as it's hard to grab something when your spinning that fast.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

_________________
Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point; on le sait en mille choses.
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Offline Yummi


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Posts: 975

Location: Bunga-Bunga Republic

PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 1:13 am   Post subject:    

Since there are several Italians reading and posting on this blog, I wanted to remember by the end of this day:

On may 23, 1992, the National Prosecutor Giovanni Falcone was killed in Capaci, Palermo, with his wife Francesca Morvillo and three bodyguaard policemen
(Antonino Montinaro, Rocco Di Cillo and Vito Schifani).

The case is to remember also Chief prosecutor Paolo Borsellino, killed on 19 july with five men and women of his armed guaard.

Other victims of mafia in previous times, the Carabinieri Prefetto Gen. Carlo Alberto Dalla Chiesa killed with his young wife.

Journalist Giuseppe Fava; the chief of the Palermo Flying Squad, Ninni Cassarà iand his officer Roberto Antiochia (1985); journalist Nino Pecorella killed in Perugia; the secretary of the Comunist Party of Sicily, MP Pio La Torre killed in Catania(1982); etrepreneur Libero Grassi (1991); Judge Antionio Saetta with his son Stefano; Judge Alberto Giacomelli(1988); Carabinieri Marshal Giuliano Guazzalli (1992); Crabinieri Marshall Vito Jevolella; Judge Antonio Scopelliti (1991); journalist Bebbe Alfano; Judge Rosario Livatino ....
and too many others, so many journalists and officers
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Offline martin


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:28 pm

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 1:20 am   Post subject:    

Hi Yummi,

I checked the online edition of the "corriere".
neither saturday nor today they published an
article about the trial. Why?
Perhaps in june i will travel to perugia and
stay one day in the courtroom
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Offline Yummi


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Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:29 pm

Posts: 975

Location: Bunga-Bunga Republic

PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 1:29 am   Post subject:    

Il Corriere della Sera
or
Il Corriere dell'Umbria ?
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Offline martin


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:28 pm

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 1:31 am   Post subject:    

corriere della sera
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Offline Yummi


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Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:29 pm

Posts: 975

Location: Bunga-Bunga Republic

PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 1:36 am   Post subject:    

Probably they wanted to wait to have all of saturday's hearing.
But also, they have mor important crime news: today they arrested the killers of journalist Mario Rostagno, a TV anchorman killed by mafia.
Anyway, there is an article on Il Giornale:

[link]http://www.ilgiornale.it/a.pic1?ID=353413[/link]

And a Google news list in Italian:

[link]http://news.google.it/news?pz=1&ned=it&cf=all&ncl=dNZyJS3k72qgfxMwDUdxx9iTpuMiM[/link]
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Offline Yummi


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Posts: 975

Location: Bunga-Bunga Republic

PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 1:39 am   Post subject:    

Sorry, wrong codes
working links :


http://www.ilgiornale.it/a.pic1?ID=353413

http://news.google.it/news?pz=1&ned=it&cf=all&ncl=dNZyJS3k72qgfxMwDUdxx9iTpuMiM
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Offline martin


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:28 pm

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 1:48 am   Post subject:    

thank's yummi,
are you also planning to go to perugia, to
get a "life" impression of what is really going on in the courtroom?
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Offline Wistar


Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2009 7:25 am

Posts: 15

PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 9:18 am   Post subject:    

For anyone who might be interested, this makes for entertaining reading at the very least :) Below is the summary of Friday and Saturday's hearings, courtesy of Kelly Brodbeck on the Free Amanda Knox facebook page:


Today In Court: Finally the DNA
That loud rushing sound of wind that you heard today was the air being let our PM Mignini's case by his star witness DNA specialist Patricia Stefanoni. Today she presented the DNA evidence long promised by Mignini and Maresca to be the nail in Raffaele and Amanda's coffin. And as predicted, it was a complete bust on many levels.

For those of you interested in the technical details of the DNA evidence go to the Perugia Shock blog as Frank has once again laid out the facts in a well organized manner. But at the end of the day this is what we have:

Of the hundreds of DNA samples taken only 10 relate to Amanda.

None of these samples place her in the victim's room.

And most importantly, the victim's DNA on the knife was obtained by laboratory techniques that are laughable everywhere, inadmissible in US courts, and will be thrown out by the Italian Supreme Court should the Italians wish to take this that far, no doubt damaging their tourist industry in the process.

Stefanoni did not find any of the victim's DNA on the murder weapon until she used amplification methods that allowed the noise in the test to produce peaks, which she then interpreted as the victims DNA. This is kind of like turning up the amplification on a microphone system until the noise in the circuit between the microphone and the speaker creates a humm. But Stefanoni doesn't hear a humm, she hears music.

Perhaps the most striking aspect of today's events was the complete let down expressed by the international media who came to see Amanda finally go down. Their reaction instead was one of confusion and sympathy for her. Note the lack of headlines. Gee, six months ago Amanda would create international controversies by just smiling too much or wearing the wrong clothes to Court. One would think the "journalist" who have made Amanda and her family's suffering into a cottage industry would have the professional integrity to report what happened. Instead, near silence, they are dumbfounded by the lack of proof.

And remember, this is the prosecution part of the trial. Just wait until Amanda's defense gets their turn. You will then understand what a complete injustice this has been. A complete breakdown of the police system, the judicial system, and media oversight that is supposed to keep institutions honest in a democracy.

It appears the prosecution will rest tomorrow. It also appears likely that PM Mignini will be found guilty in his abuse of power trial.

Look for a great piece on this case coming soon on ABC's 20/20.

As I write this there is a commercial on my TV encouraging Americans to visit Italy. Ya, right.





Prosecution Confirmation of a Lone Rudy
May 23, 2009

Today we had the cross examination of DNA specialist Patricia Stefanoni. As always I recommend those who are interested in technical details to go to the Perugia Shock blog where Frank will no doubt pick Patricia’s junk science apart. We are concerned here that her university will revoke her degree given her performance as a scientist today. If she were a doctor her license to practice would be in jeopardy.

From a legal standpoint Stefanoni conceded on all points of DNA evidence except for the bra clasp (Raffaele) and the knife (Amanda). All the other DNA evidence proves nothing more than that Amanda and Meredith shared a house, including a bathroom, the murderer washed up in the bathroom after the killing, and then Amanda took a shower and walked around the house the next day. Stefanoni had to concede that there are innocent explanations for these 8 DNA samples involving Amanda found around the house.

It will be left to Amanda and Raffaele’s capable experts to explain to the Jury why the knife DNA and bra clasp DNA are pure junk science. These experts will include resources from the United States who invented the science. Needless to say they are having a good laugh already at Patricia.

HOWEVER, the big news today was the prosecution’s, I repeat, the prosecution’s blood spatter witness. In short he testified that the blood spatter pattern proves that Meredith was leaning back on her elbows, facing her attacker, and that there was only one attacker. They pattern would be different had there been other people standing around holding her, which is PM Mignini’s stated theory of the crime. The pattern would be different had she been standing up or kneeing on hands and knees (Mignini’s claim). These findings are completely consistent with Amanda’s defense expert who testified to these very facts at the pre-trial hearing in October. There was one attacker and his name is Rudy Guede.

Ah Mignini, the gift that keeps on giving. If only he would turn over the video showing the police hitting Amanda during her 14-hour interrogation with no lawyer or translator. BTW, the first person to tell Amanda’s family that she was abused during her interrogation was not Amanda; it was the US Embassy who interviewed her after her arrest. At the time the family directed the Embassy to do nothing as they did not want to inflame the police as they were working in those early days to win her release.

So much more truth is yet to come. Stay tuned and invite your friends to the Cause.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 9:54 am   Post subject:    

"This is kind of like turning up the amplification on a microphone system until the noise in the circuit between the microphone and the speaker creates a humm. But Stefanoni doesn't hear a humm, she hears music. "

The name of this disease is Frank's Bullshit Gluttony.
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Offline Yummi


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Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:29 pm

Posts: 975

Location: Bunga-Bunga Republic

PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 9:59 am   Post subject:    

Quote:
are you also planning to go to perugia, to
get a "life" impression of what is really going on in the courtroom?


I think not. I work in Urbino on Fridays and if I can I would rather enjoy going to the seaside, considering also that in Perugia there is 35 degrees in the shadow during the day.
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Offline petafly


Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:08 pm

Posts: 278

Location: Switzerland/Germany

PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 10:11 am   Post subject:    

Kelly Brodbecks writing style reminds me a tiny little bit of Jesus Quintana (from "the Big Lebowski"). It wouldn't be really hard to translate it in his tone, would it?

Quote:
Jesus Quintana: What's this day of rest shit? What's this bullshit? I don't fuckin' care! It don't matter to Jesus. But you're not foolin' me, man. You might fool the fucks in the league office, but you don't fool Jesus. This bush league psyche-out stuff. Laughable, man - ha ha! I would have fucked you in the ass Saturday. I fuck you in the ass next Wednesday instead. Wooo! You got a date Wednesday, baby!

The Dude: Jesus.

Jesus Quintana: You said it, man. Nobody fucks with the Jesus.

Walter Sobchak: Eight-year-olds, Dude.


;)
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Offline Mutley


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Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:38 pm

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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 10:56 am   Post subject:    

Today In Court: Finally the DNA
That loud rushing sound of wind that you heard today was the air being let our PM Mignini's case by his star witness DNA specialist Patricia Stefanoni. Today she presented the DNA evidence long promised by Mignini and Maresca to be the nail in Raffaele and Amanda's coffin. And as predicted, it was a complete bust on many levels.

And most importantly, the victim's DNA on the knife was obtained by laboratory techniques that are laughable everywhere, inadmissible in US courts, and will be thrown out by the Italian Supreme Court should the Italians wish to take this that far, no doubt damaging their tourist industry in the process.

Perhaps the most striking aspect of today's events was the complete let down expressed by the international media who came to see Amanda finally go down. Their reaction instead was one of confusion and sympathy for her. Note the lack of headlines. Gee, six months ago Amanda would create international controversies by just smiling too much or wearing the wrong clothes to Court. One would think the "journalist" who have made Amanda and her family's suffering into a cottage industry would have the professional integrity to report what happened. Instead, near silence, they are dumbfounded by the lack of proof.

And remember, this is the prosecution part of the trial. Just wait until Amanda's defense gets their turn. You will then understand what a complete injustice this has been. A complete breakdown of the police system, the judicial system, and media oversight that is supposed to keep institutions honest in a democracy.

It appears the prosecution will rest tomorrow. It also appears likely that PM Mignini will be found guilty in his abuse of power trial.

Look for a great piece on this case coming soon on ABC's 20/20.

As I write this there is a commercial on my TV encouraging Americans to visit Italy. Ya, right.





Today we had the cross examination of DNA specialist Patricia Stefanoni. As always I recommend those who are interested in technical details to go to the Perugia Shock blog where Frank will no doubt pick Patricia’s junk science apart. We are concerned here that her university will revoke her degree given her performance as a scientist today. If she were a doctor her license to practice would be in jeopardy.

It will be left to Amanda and Raffaele’s capable experts to explain to the Jury why the knife DNA and bra clasp DNA are pure junk science. These experts will include resources from the United States who invented the science. Needless to say they are having a good laugh already at Patricia.

Ah Mignini, the gift that keeps on giving. If only he would turn over the video showing the police hitting Amanda during her 14-hour interrogation with no lawyer or translator. BTW, the first person to tell Amanda’s family that she was abused during her interrogation was not Amanda; it was the US Embassy who interviewed her after her arrest. At the time the family directed the Embassy to do nothing as they did not want to inflame the police as they were working in those early days to win her release.

So much more truth is yet to come. Stay tuned and invite your friends to the Cause.[/quote]


Mignini: You're BUSTED dude! Man were you dumb to take it this far. You get some witchdoctor woman from Rome to pedal snake-oil science and think you can bamboozle everybody just because you're in Italy. RETARD!!!!! WHO INVENTED THE SCIENCE DUMBO??? Your witchdoctor woman is history now. They'll investigate whatever bullshit qualification she has and take it away from her. Back to high school fathead. The real scientists are coming from the US to explain how it works. Frank the investigative journalist has got you sussed. He can explain the science stuff easy enough. DNA?? Listen, half of Italy has that stuff and only 20% of them match a 500% stereo amplified contamination sample which gives you the dna of a fish. Besides she lived there man so it's natural her blood is mixed with the victims. What do you expect, you take a shower and wander around barefoot with blood everywhere, of course they get mixed. Then she got scared and did the right thing and waited for the police to turn up without being called and they crucify her because she is the first person they find. Voodoo science man.

OMG am I glad the US embassy is on top of things. They sussed these fascist police thugs out straight away but didn't want to make things worse. They took their concerns straight to a Judge with proper qualifications, Michael Heavey. Yeah! Washington State dude. No bullshit qualifications there man. Thing I don't get man, is why the police start beating up on a WITNESS that they haven't actually invited for the beating. Hey they're Italians right. It aint the US. Then they claim she made accusations just because our Amanda volunteered to back and give loads of extra details about this African-American bar owner and how he did it. She did that because she aint scared of them man. She wanted to give them enough rope to hang themselves dude. Smart cookie. They fell right for it. Anyhow the embassy said it was best to go along with this for a while and not tell them the bar owner was innocent. Hey he can get a beating too!. So she waits a couple of weeks until he has proved himself innocent before telling them how dumb they have been. Now lets see the tape Mignini!!! Show us the beating!!!! SHOW THE TAPE!! Man you are toast. You're going to prison man! There's an investigation now dude. You called for it only because it was inevitable. You're bluffing. And the tourist board are after your scalp too dude. THERE'S A US BOYCOTT OF ITALY S***HEAD!! Where will that leave your economy??? You're nailed.

Hey! Did you see how the press were dumbfounded. They were expecting like loads of evidence and what they got was just crap. Hey some jerk claimed they were losing interest because things are going one way and there are no headlines in that. BIG headline man is RAILROAD JOB FROM HELL! European papers are too chicken to run it because the system will crucify them. Well if need be, Harry Wilkens' internet commandos are on standby to bust her out and we're still recruiting in like droves. It's time to get tough. We don't want to go that far but if we're pushed man.....
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Offline petafly


Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:08 pm

Posts: 278

Location: Switzerland/Germany

PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 11:06 am   Post subject:    

:lol: You said it, man. Nobody fucks with the Jesus.
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2308

PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 11:17 am   Post subject:    

Here is button's take on the testimony of the forensic experts:

Mez: A DEADLY MIX (3#) -
Meredith Kercher Murder -

On Friday, the Prosecution tipped its long-held hand to show us some cards we hadn't seen before: multiple discreet pieces of evidence - and the aggregate picture they represented was ominous. Unless Defense can provide an alternate scenario which persuasively accounts for the Prosecution's mosaic of evidence, the cumulative effect will be damning for the defendants.

We expected to see the alleged weapon presented: the knife. But there was more. At several locations in the house there was a mixture of DNA evidence containing both Knox and Kercher genetic material, including the light switch in the bathroom and in Filomena Romanelli's bedroom.

Why did this particular mixture exist?
And why was it at those locations?

What did Amanda's statement to the
Court about the pink rabbit sex toy tell us?

It seemed to tell us that Amanda believed that Meredith was an accessory in her life equivalent to a sex toy or a comb.

Which word does not belong in the following group:

murder - roommate - comb - university.

http://eclectchap.blogspot.com/
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 1:09 pm   Post subject:    

I pasted side by side the first graphs from each of the two DNA analyses published by Frank.
One of them is from the knife found in Raffaele's kitchen drawer, the other is a sample taken from the victim's wound.

Now we can see what an utter non-sense the "overamplified noise and arbitrary selection of peaks" theory is.
On the contrary, the matching is remarkably good (also between the other three pairs of graphs not included here).





Last edited by bolint on Sun May 24, 2009 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 1:17 pm   Post subject: Barbie Nadeau   

New article by Barbie Nadeau in the DAILY BEAST

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline mojo


Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:31 pm

Posts: 225

PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 1:34 pm   Post subject:    

i've been thinking about Greggy's musings about RS beating a murder rap....i wonder if the two of them will maintain a solid front or if one will throw the other under a bus. seems to me RS has the most to gain from this....the defense must think they have at least one leg to stand on...this is going to be very interesting (or extremely pathetic)....
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Offline petafly


Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:08 pm

Posts: 278

Location: Switzerland/Germany

PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 1:46 pm   Post subject:    

Quote:
I pasted side by side the first graphs from each of the two DNA analyses published by Frank.
One of them is from the knife found in Raffaele's kitchen drawer, the other is a sample taken from the victim's wound.

Now we can see what an utter non-sense the "overamplified noise and arbitrary selection of peaks" theory is.
On the contrary, the matching is remarkably good (also between the other three pairs of graphs not included here).

Great Idea bolint,
i called my sis (she's a biologist) and asked her about DNA analysis. She said, the defense isn't completely wrong about the noise and the selection of peaks, there can be false peaks in a weak sample, BUT thats not too important if you can compare it to good material: 'cause you always lay the good sample over the bad sample and check every single peak of the good sample wether or not it is present in the bad sample. Not the other way round. And, of course, if just one peak, say the strong peak 12 of CSF1P0 of the good one wouldn't show up in the bad one, bang, no match!

But every peak is there, even the tiny 33.2 on D21S1 is in the right place!


Last edited by petafly on Sun May 24, 2009 2:49 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Offline stint7


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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 2:00 pm   Post subject:    

Sometimes those BIG $$$ Lawyers pay off

Sollecito’s attorney, Giulia Bongiorno, stopped the crime scene video several times to point out errors. For example, Stefanoni testified that she had changed gloves according to official investigation procedures, but Bongiorno stopped the crime scene video twice to show that Stefanoni’s bracelet and the fold of her glove were exactly the same before and after the time she claimed to have changed gloves.
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Offline Viv


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Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:28 am

Posts: 105

PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 2:21 pm   Post subject:    

Quote:
These experts will include resources from the United States who invented the science.


Resources like that good ol' American Sir Alec Jeffreys?

Primary-school Italophobia and Anglophobia is par for the FOA course, but this particular aborigine of the 51st State would humbly suggest Kelly not only does a little historical homework, but learns that Less is More when it comes to drumming up international support for her Cause.

As for the papers, I regret that I don't know what is exercising Kelly's national press at the moment. The newspapers here are perversely concentrating on matters such as one of our periodic Cromwellian parliamentary clean-outs; the crucial battles in Mogadishu and Mingora; the Indian, Iranian and EU parliamentary elections; yet more British deaths in Afghanistan and, er, the calamitous split of Jordan and Peter.

The trial for Meredith Kercher's murder has been steadily slipping down editorial priority lists since January. Most continuing trials do. But when the verdict is announced, I can assure you that Meredith's hideous death will again be front-page news in her country.
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Offline petafly


Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:08 pm

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Location: Switzerland/Germany

PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 2:28 pm   Post subject:    

Made a composite of the two, to see if they match. Decide for yourself! (black is the sample taken from the victim's wound, white is the knife sample)

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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2308

PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 2:37 pm   Post subject:    

stint7 wrote:
Sometimes those BIG $$$ Lawyers pay off

Sollecito’s attorney, Giulia Bongiorno, stopped the crime scene video several times to point out errors. For example, Stefanoni testified that she had changed gloves according to official investigation procedures, but Bongiorno stopped the crime scene video twice to show that Stefanoni’s bracelet and the fold of her glove were exactly the same before and after the time she claimed to have changed gloves.


It still doesn't explain how an abundant amount of Sollecito's DNA ended up on a small piece of Meredith's underwear.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 2:50 pm   Post subject: Nick Pisa   

New piece by Nick Pisa, focusing on Meredith's last moments: SKY NEWS

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
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Offline stint7


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Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:07 pm

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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 3:01 pm   Post subject:    

The BIG $$$ Defense Attorneys have no intention (nor obligation) to "explain" every piece of Prosecution evidence.

Their intent and objective is quite simply just to *create a possible sense of doubt*, or 'what if'.

By immediately using visual proof to directly contradict (admittedly a small segment of) Ms Stefanoni's 10 hour testimpny, as well as previously repeatedly emphasizing that the bra clasp (the small piece of underwear you cite ?) had "made a tour of the premises" as well as laying undiscovered, (and *un secured*) for weeks, in my opinion, this intent of defense is well served.

Only time will tell how well
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 3:26 pm   Post subject:    

Stint7 wrote:
...as well as laying undiscovered...


It wasn't undiscovered for weeks. It was found under the pillow, under Meredith's body when her body was turned over, just after midight, Nov2/Nov3.

Its presence and description were noted and it was placed elsewhere in Meredith's room at the time.

The problem is that it wasn't collected up with the other exhibits, the pillow, the towels, the bra etc. It was only later that it was discovered as missing when it was required for testing in Rome. It was located in December when people returned to the cottage to search for it.

It was sloppy work by the forensics not to bag it first time, but on the basis that none of Raffaele's DNA was found in Meredith's room how do you perceive that his DNA came to be on that clasp.
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Offline stint7


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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 3:43 pm   Post subject:    

I am fully cognizant about the complete sorry evidence trail saga of the bra clasp.

Your distinction between "laying undiscovered" and "discovered as missing" (for weeks) is granted its semantic due.

In reply to your query; my personal perception FWIW is that the only way DNA found its way to the clasp was directly from RS.

However, again, my point is that the 'sloppiness' you acknowledge, as well as the erroneous statement by Ms Stefanoni about her gloves that I initially cited, definitely well serve the Defense intent which is just to possibly create doubts.
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Offline Tara


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Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 3:46 pm   Post subject: Kelly the Kook   

Caustic Kelly reported:

Quote:
HOWEVER, the big news today was the prosecution’s, I repeat, the prosecution’s blood spatter witness. In short he testified that the blood spatter pattern proves that Meredith was leaning back on her elbows, facing her attacker, and that there was only one attacker.


Daily Beast - Barbie Nadeau:

Quote:
On Saturday, Francesco Camana, an expert with Rome's criminal forensic division, testified that based on the trajectory of blood splatters, Kercher was most likely killed while on her knees facing her wardrobe. He will be cross-examined on May 29.


SKY News - Nick Pisa:

Quote:
In the latest court hearing, blood pattern analyst Francesco Camana used a series of photographs to illustrate how he believed Meredith had died.

The graphic photographs showed blood stains on the floor and wardrobe in Meredith's bedroom where she was found dead in November 2007.

Dr Camana told the court in Perugia: ''From the photographs of the blood pattern we can see that when Meredith was fatally knifed in the throat she was no more than 40cm from the floor.

''She was kneeling down in front of the wardrobe, her face was pressed almost to the floor, she was on her knees with her chest pushed forward and her legs behind her.



Kelly Brodbeck needs to get his information from a better source who speaks Italian so he can get the correct information to pass on to his Facebook Faithful Followers. Chris Mellas should consider hiring an interpreter so he can understand what's going on so he can pass the correct information on to Kelly Brodbeck.
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Offline Zopi


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Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 8:52 pm

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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 3:57 pm   Post subject: Re: Kelly the Kook   

Tara wrote:
Caustic Kelly reported:

Quote:
HOWEVER, the big news today was the prosecution’s, I repeat, the prosecution’s blood spatter witness. In short he testified that the blood spatter pattern proves that Meredith was leaning back on her elbows, facing her attacker, and that there was only one attacker.


Daily Beast - Barbie Nadeau:

Quote:
On Saturday, Francesco Camana, an expert with Rome's criminal forensic division, testified that based on the trajectory of blood splatters, Kercher was most likely killed while on her knees facing her wardrobe. He will be cross-examined on May 29.


SKY News - Nick Pisa:

Quote:
In the latest court hearing, blood pattern analyst Francesco Camana used a series of photographs to illustrate how he believed Meredith had died.

The graphic photographs showed blood stains on the floor and wardrobe in Meredith's bedroom where she was found dead in November 2007.

Dr Camana told the court in Perugia: ''From the photographs of the blood pattern we can see that when Meredith was fatally knifed in the throat she was no more than 40cm from the floor.

''She was kneeling down in front of the wardrobe, her face was pressed almost to the floor, she was on her knees with her chest pushed forward and her legs behind her.



Kelly Brodbeck needs to get his information from a better source who speaks Italian so he can get the correct information to pass on to his Facebook Faithful Followers. Chris Mellas should consider hiring an interpreter so he can understand what's going on so he can pass the correct information on to Kelly Brodbeck.


Does it mean that the final blow was hand-righted?
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2308

PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 3:58 pm   Post subject:    

stint7 wrote:
The BIG $$$ Defense Attorneys have no intention (nor obligation) to "explain" every piece of Prosecution evidence.

Their intent and objective is quite simply just to *create a possible sense of doubt*, or 'what if'.

By immediately using visual proof to directly contradict (admittedly a small segment of) Ms Stefanoni's 10 hour testimpny, as well as previously repeatedly emphasizing that the bra clasp (the small piece of underwear you cite ?) had "made a tour of the premises" as well as laying undiscovered, (and *un secured*) for weeks, in my opinion, this intent of defense is well served.

Only time will tell how well


Did Giulia Bongiorno prove that Dr. Patrizia Stefanoni didn't change gloves? Barbie Nadeau doesn't mention Stefanoni's response to Bongiorno's claim.

The defence lawyers have been paid to fiercely contest the prosecution's case by muddying the waters. I don't think they achieved their objective at all. If anything, the prosecution's case is stronger because the forensic experts have clarified some key points and corrected some misconceptions.

Patrizia Stefanoni testified that she had reliably identified the trace on the double DNA knife as belonging to Meredith despite Frank's Szarfo's claims below:

"But a news denied by Amanda's defense which explained then privately that the Dna on the blade will not be admitted in the evidence. According to them Stefanoni stated that the DNA on the knife is NOT RELIABLE at all."

Patrizia Stefanoni's testimony about the double DNA knife is damning:

“If the blood evidence is a positive match, it is not always important how much there is,” Stefanoni said. “And the material on the blade matches the victim.” (Barbie Nadeau, The Daily Beast).

We found out why the police and prosecution believe the double DNA knife had been cleaned. An officer testified that Sollecito's kitchen smelt strongly of bleach and there were peculiar diagonal scrapes on the side of the blade which indicate that somebody had tried to scrub it clean.

We've learnt that luminol actually reacts differently to blood than to other substances and that the scientific police are trained to tell the difference.

Stefanoni made it crystal clear that it was impossible for Meredith's bra clasp to have been contaminated with Sollecito's DNA.

"Sollecito would have had to rub the bra hook forcefully for DNA from his skin cells to be on it, she said. Dead skin cells floating around the room do not contain DNA and would not stick, she said." (Anne Wise, ABC News).

Meredith's blood mixed with Amanda Knox's DNA in Filomena's room is dramatic and damning evidence. Barbie Nadeau think it is possibly more damning that the double DNA evidence:

"But perhaps more damning even than the knife was Stefanoni’s testimony that a mix of Knox’s DNA and Kercher’s blood was found on the floor in the bedroom of a third roommate, Filomena Romanelli. While it might not be noteworthy to find mixed genetic traces of residents of the same house, Romanelli’s room is critical in this crime. Her window was broken with a large rock that prosecutors believe was used to stage a break-in. The mixed Knox-Kercher trace was found after investigators used luminol, a substance used in forensic science to bring out blood that had been cleaned up." (Barbie Nadeau. The Daily Beast).
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Offline Tara


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Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

Posts: 1010

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 4:05 pm   Post subject: Re: Kelly the Kook   

Zopi wrote:
Tara wrote:
Caustic Kelly reported:

Quote:
HOWEVER, the big news today was the prosecution’s, I repeat, the prosecution’s blood spatter witness. In short he testified that the blood spatter pattern proves that Meredith was leaning back on her elbows, facing her attacker, and that there was only one attacker.


Daily Beast - Barbie Nadeau:

Quote:
On Saturday, Francesco Camana, an expert with Rome's criminal forensic division, testified that based on the trajectory of blood splatters, Kercher was most likely killed while on her knees facing her wardrobe. He will be cross-examined on May 29.


SKY News - Nick Pisa:

Quote:
In the latest court hearing, blood pattern analyst Francesco Camana used a series of photographs to illustrate how he believed Meredith had died.

The graphic photographs showed blood stains on the floor and wardrobe in Meredith's bedroom where she was found dead in November 2007.

Dr Camana told the court in Perugia: ''From the photographs of the blood pattern we can see that when Meredith was fatally knifed in the throat she was no more than 40cm from the floor.

''She was kneeling down in front of the wardrobe, her face was pressed almost to the floor, she was on her knees with her chest pushed forward and her legs behind her.



Kelly Brodbeck needs to get his information from a better source who speaks Italian so he can get the correct information to pass on to his Facebook Faithful Followers. Chris Mellas should consider hiring an interpreter so he can understand what's going on so he can pass the correct information on to Kelly Brodbeck.


Does it mean that the final blow was hand-righted?



Hi Zopi,

The prosecution's theory is that Knox dealt the final blow and was facing Meredith. Knox would have stabbed Meredith holding the knife in her right hand which caused the mortal wound to the left side of Meredith's neck.
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Offline indie


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Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:15 am

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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 4:07 pm   Post subject:    

stint7 wrote:
I am fully cognizant about the complete sorry evidence trail saga of the bra clasp.

Your distinction between "laying undiscovered" and "discovered as missing" (for weeks) is granted its semantic due.

In reply to your query; my personal perception FWIW is that the only way DNA found its way to the clasp was directly from RS.

However, again, my point is that the 'sloppiness' you acknowledge, as well as the erroneous statement by Ms Stefanoni about her gloves that I initially cited, definitely well serve the Defense intent which is just to possibly create doubts.



I believe that the fact that the Italian jury consists of judges and professional jury members vs a "common folk" or civilian type jury system one sees in America will help the prosecution. I think professional juries are more likely to look at the WHOLE picture and less chance of falling for "if the glove does not fit you must acquit" tactics. That being said, a professional jury might not be too pleased with some of this sloppiness either and therefore decide to not even factor the bra clasp in their decision.


Last edited by indie on Sun May 24, 2009 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline indie


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Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:15 am

Posts: 383

PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 4:19 pm   Post subject:    

Quote:
In the latest court hearing, blood pattern analyst Francesco Camana used a series of photographs to illustrate how he believed Meredith had died.
The graphic photographs showed blood stains on the floor and wardrobe in Meredith's bedroom where she was found dead in November 2007.
Dr Camana told the court in Perugia: ''From the photographs of the blood pattern we can see that when Meredith was fatally knifed in the throat she was no more than 40cm from the floor.
''She was kneeling down in front of the wardrobe, her face was pressed almost to the floor, she was on her knees with her chest pushed forward and her legs behind her.''
~ Sky News Nick Pisa

So did Camana testify after Stefanoni? Will Camana be coming back?
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Offline stint7


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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 4:22 pm   Post subject:    

If in fact the judges and professional jurors "do not factor in the bra clasp in their decision", and lacking being 'ratted out' by AK and/or Guede, my personal opinion is that the probability of a guilty verdict for RS is dramatically diminished.

This would seem to validate initial premise of my post that every dollar (or Lire) that RS and his well connected Father paid the BIG $$$ Defense team was indeed well spent.
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2308

PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 4:25 pm   Post subject:    

indie wrote:
That being said, a professional jury might not be too pleased with some of this sloppiness either and not factor in the bra clasp in their decision.


The fact that the bra clasp wasn't collected immediately doesn't make any difference. Raffaele Sollectio didn't enter Meredith's room or the cottage during the time when the bra clasp was still in Meredith's room.

The situation hasn't changed and the bra clasp evidence remains crucial evidence against Sollecito.
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Offline indie


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Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:15 am

Posts: 383

PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 4:28 pm   Post subject:    

stint7 wrote:
If in fact the judges and professional jurors "do not factor in the bra clasp in their decision", and lacking being 'ratted out' by AK and/or Guede, my personal opinion is that the probability of a guilty verdict for RS is dramatically diminished.

This would seem to validate initial premise of my post that every dollar (or Lire) that RS and his well connected Father paid the BIG $$$ Defense team was indeed well spent.



Well, I discussed this yesterday. The problem will be Raffaele. Can he stomach his dearly beloved Amanda going off to prison when he knows damn well he was there and instrumental in the murder? Brian has brought it up too, there is less crucial evidence for Raffaele. So yes Raffaele does have a slight edge in the guilty verdict department.
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Offline Jumpy


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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 4:30 pm   Post subject:    

Their fake alibis should start to crumble in 5..4...3...2..1
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Offline Tara


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Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 4:33 pm   Post subject: Camana Cross Examination   

Indie asked:

Quote:
So did Camana testify after Stefanoni? Will Camana be coming back?


Hi Indie,

According to Barbie Nadeau in the Daily Beast article, Camana will be back this coming Friday, May 29, 2009 for cross examination.
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Offline Paula


Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:12 pm

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Location: Canada

PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 4:39 pm   Post subject:    

I hear the prosecution will rest soon. We have heard nothing of what they may have found from the clothes in the washing machine, Amanda's and Raffaele's own clothes, Raffaele's kitchen drain, anything in the mop or bucket, etc. Shouldn't something, anything, have been said about these? or did I just miss reading anything on this?
Did they test the floors for bleach? If not, why not? All evidence points to a cleanup. i would expect a bigger deal to have been made of it.
Does anyone know the agenda for the next trial session?
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 4:41 pm   Post subject:    

stint7 wrote:
If in fact the judges and professional jurors "do not factor in the bra clasp in their decision", and lacking being 'ratted out' by AK and/or Guede, my personal opinion is that the probability of a guilty verdict for RS is dramatically diminished.

This would seem to validate initial premise of my post that every dollar (or Lire) that RS and his well connected Father paid the BIG $$$ Defense team was indeed well spent.


I don't believe for a second that the judges or jury dismiss the bra clasp evidence. The defence will have to present a plausible alternative scenario that explains how Sollecito's DNA got on a small piece of Meredith's underwear. They will be unable to do this.

The testimony of the forensic experts on Friday and Saturday was very damning. Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito will be both found guilty of murdering Meredith. Giulia Bongiorno noticing that Patrizia Stenanoni had the same fold in her gloves won't make any difference. You're exaggerating the importance of this and completely turning a blind eye to the other highly incriminating evidence against Sollecito such as his multiple alibis and repeated lies, the two bloody footprints that have been attributed to him, and the double DNA knife being found in his apartment.
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Offline indie


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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 4:41 pm   Post subject:    

The Machine wrote:
indie wrote:
That being said, a professional jury might not be too pleased with some of this sloppiness either and not factor in the bra clasp in their decision.


The fact that the bra clasp wasn't collected immediately doesn't make any difference. Raffaele Sollectio didn't enter Meredith's room or the cottage during the time when the bra clasp was still in Meredith's room.

The situation hasn't changed and the bra clasp evidence remains crucial evidence against Sollecito.



Hi TM,

I know you know but I just want to say that we are just throwing thoughts and possibilities out here on the board. We are dealing with human nature and nothing is so black and white. In other words, yes the bra clasp is crucial evidence against Raffaele, but I bet you wish just like all of us here that that clasp would have been collected properly from its original position. Nobody is perfect. We are just postulating what the jury MIGHT think or do about that careless aspect of the investigation.
k-((
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Offline stint7


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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 4:45 pm   Post subject:    

Don't know if I can accept the above characterization of AK as RS's 'dearly beloved', at this stage in the drama.

This reluctance on my part is based on RS's initial Courtroom demeanor toward AK, his later in court statement, reducing the strength and durability of his willingness to testify that AK was with him in bed all night, and finally the derogatory, demeaning remarks his well connected Father used to describe AK to the Italian Press.
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Offline indie


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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 4:47 pm   Post subject: Re: Camana Cross Examination   

Tara wrote:
Indie asked:

Quote:
So did Camana testify after Stefanoni? Will Camana be coming back?


Hi Indie,

According to Barbie Nadeau in the Daily Beast article, Camana will be back this coming Friday, May 29, 2009 for cross examination.



Well I would like to hear more about the blood patterns say about the murder and what the killers did after the murder, especially since they moved and covered her.
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Offline Mutley


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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 4:50 pm   Post subject:    

Oh I don't think RS will lose any sleep over AK going to jail without him. His only concern is what she can SAY about him. His alliance with her is tactical and he has shown he is more than happy to separate if he can; he doesn't confirm her story of being with him all night. His current version is still that she left around 9pm.

I don't think the bra clasp is going to get put side in anybody's opinion, defence obfuscation notwithstanding. The Italian system of not using just average Joe public helps the prosecution. The sample is strong and had to COME from somewhere not just arrive. Uncollected if not undiscovered the clasp may have been and moved perhaps but where did all that dna come from? If Guede did it alone why is his dna NOT on the clasp. DNA migrating onto the clasp in large quantities via a policeman's shoe is just too daft for the jury to take seriously. It's a clasp not a sponge, it wasn't being used to mop up the floor even if it did get moved so again where did all the dna COME from? The only other sample that showed RS' dna was the cigarette butt. If the jury can be persuaded of an attempt at a cleanup then the lack of other samples has an explanation. The defence may have scored some points on some sloppiness in the collection but they have not shown how contamination could have happened or where the contamination could come from. The clasp is still in play.
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 5:27 pm   Post subject:    

We are missing so many "little" details when relying on the press. It's not dramatic stuff, but it can all add up.

As an example, a small item from Barbie Nadau's story which isn't explained or reported elsewhere:

Quote:
Stefanoni also found Kercher’s blood on the upper part of the light switch in that room, which indicates that it was left when the light was turned on, not off.


Might it also be evidence of the clean up?

It sounds that this light wasn't of a pull on/off nature since the position of the pull string is identical when on or off. Besides who would reach right to the top of the pull.

Thus, I assume we are talking about a "rocker" switch and Meredith's blood got onto the switch when somebody used it.

But if it was later switched off before being wiped clean, then Meredith's blood would remain on the top side of the switch rocker which would have been pushed back into the switch casing when it was switched off.

Pic of a rocker type switch
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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 5:32 pm   Post subject: 11 hours   

Brian S. wrote:
Stint7 wrote:
...as well as laying undiscovered...


It wasn't undiscovered for weeks. It was found under the pillow, under Meredith's body when her body was turned over, just after midight, Nov2/Nov3.

Its presence and description were noted and it was placed elsewhere in Meredith's room at the time.

The problem is that it wasn't collected up with the other exhibits, the pillow, the towels, the bra etc. It was only later that it was discovered as missing when it was required for testing in Rome. It was located in December when people returned to the cottage to search for it.

It was sloppy work by the forensics not to bag it first time, but on the basis that none of Raffaele's DNA was found in Meredith's room how do you perceive that his DNA came to be on that clasp.


AND Mutley wrote:

Quote:
I don't think the bra clasp is going to get put side in anybody's opinion, defence obfuscation notwithstanding. The Italian system of not using just average Joe public helps the prosecution. The sample is strong and had to COME from somewhere not just arrive. Uncollected if not undiscovered the clasp may have been and moved perhaps but where did all that dna come from? If Guede did it alone why is his dna NOT on the clasp. DNA migrating onto the clasp in large quantities via a policeman's shoe is just too daft for the jury to take seriously. It's a clasp not a sponge, it wasn't being used to mop up the floor even if it did get moved so again where did all the dna COME from? The only other sample that showed RS' dna was the cigarette butt. If the jury can be persuaded of an attempt at a cleanup then the lack of other samples has an explanation. The defence may have scored some points on some sloppiness in the collection but they have not shown how contamination could have happened or where the contamination could come from. The clasp is still in play.


Just to add to the above comments, we know from what's in the public reports of the crime scene video that the CSI's were processing the crime scene by at least 3:10pm on November 2, 2007. The bra clasp was under Meredith's body the entire time while other pieces of evidence were collected and bagged. We also know that Meredith's body was still in the same locale at least 11 hours later in the early hours of November 3, 2007.

Think of all the evidence that was processed in that room over a span of 11 hours that came up negative for Sollecito's DNA. Not one piece of evidence collected was "contaminated" from a CSI's bootie, glove or stray hair that Sollecito's DNA had magically attached itself to. According to the FOA, the CSI's were so sloppy that wouldn't some other piece of evidence mistakenly show Raffaele's DNA on it? Especially since the professional forensics experts were tromping around the place picking up his spit here and there.

All the while, the bra clasp was being "protected" by being covered up for 11 hours while much of the crime scene was processed. Suddenly it's "contaminated" with a substantial amount of Sollecito's DNA while the only other DNA of his is on a cigarette butt in the kitchen.

Absurd! :shock:

I agree Mutley - THE BRA CLASP IS STILL IN PLAY!
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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 5:49 pm   Post subject: Rocker Lightswitch   

Brian S. wrote:
We are missing so many "little" details when relying on the press. It's not dramatic stuff, but it can all add up.

As an example, a small item from Barbie Nadau's story which isn't explained or reported elsewhere:

Quote:
Stefanoni also found Kercher’s blood on the upper part of the light switch in that room, which indicates that it was left when the light was turned on, not off.


Might it also be evidence of the clean up?

It sounds that this light wasn't of a pull on/off nature since the position of the pull string is identical when on or off. Besides who would reach right to the top of the pull.

Thus, I assume we are talking about a "rocker" switch and Meredith's blood got onto the switch when somebody used it.

But if it was later switched off before being wiped clean, then Meredith's blood would remain on the top side of the switch rocker which would have been pushed back into the switch casing when it was switched off.

Pic of a rocker type switch


Hi Brian -

HUGE clue for evidence of a clean-up in my opinion. Did you mean to say that if it was later switched off "after" being wiped clean, then Meredith's blood would remain on the top side of the switch rocker...?


EDITED TO RE-THINK: I guess it would depend on which upper part of the rocker Meredith's blood was found. The upper flat part or the upper edge part? Now I'm confusing myself! :?
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 6:13 pm   Post subject: Reporting   

Brian wrote:
We are missing so many "little" details when relying on the press. It's not dramatic stuff, but it can all add up.

As an example, a small item from Barbie Nadau's story which isn't explained or reported elsewhere:



I've some more bad news in regard to our having to 'rely' on the press. My sources have informed me that almost all the foreign journalists will not be present for the next set of hearings, as they'll be going home for the commencement of the school holidays for their children. Coverage is going to be pretty threadbare.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 6:26 pm   Post subject:    

Brian S. wrote:
Thus, I assume we are talking about a "rocker" switch and Meredith's blood got onto the switch when somebody used it.

But if it was later switched off before being wiped clean, then Meredith's blood would remain on the top side of the switch rocker which would have been pushed back into the switch casing when it was switched off.

Pic of a rocker type switch



I could not find a picture of the switch in Meredith's room, but there are at least two switches of this kind in Laura's room and at least one in Filomena's room.
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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 7:34 pm   Post subject: OUT with the Lone Wolf   

Brian S. wrote:
Quote:
Meredith would not be able to scratch or to be offensive in general his accusers. The girl would have limited English, as evidenced by the wounds, trying to avoid the blade of the knife that has pierced on more 'points in the neck. The news and 'indirectly confirmed by the biologist Patrizia Stefanoni, now heads the prosecution on the analysis
of artefacts and traces of dna girder in the house of horrors and the knife alleged murder weapon.

"I personally made the analysis of the hands of Meredith Kercher - says biologist - but under the nails there 'trace of skin and other ingredients that go back to the genetic profile of the killer. Or not' managed to scratch, its host, who attacked or very short nails were unable to trap the skin and hair. "

Slip on the victim, analyzed with the technique of verifying the chromosome "Y", is not 'found no trace genetic ne' seminal fluid.


Google translation of this story from Rai News

I think its saying that there wasn't any trace of the attackers under Meredith's finger nails.

Does this suggest she couldn't fight back because her arms were held?

Improved translation again welcome.


In this photo (one of my favorites), a zoom of Meredith's hands shows she has nice fingernails in my opinion.




How could it be that Meredith, who we know fought for her life, didn't have any DNA material under her fingernails? I think because, like you say Brian, she was restrained and Rudy DID NOT do this alone. When will the FOA realize this?

Reports state that Meredith perhaps was strangled prior to being stabbed with the fatal blow. This is evidenced by the defensive cuts to her right palm and right thumb, so she tried to fend off the knife.

"When a person is strangled to the point of unconsciousness or death before the slashing begins, they have no opportunity to put their arms up to try and deflect the cutting blows. However, when a person is being strangled, even by someone larger and stronger than they, there is time to take some defensive actions.

The first thing most people would do, if being strangled, is to grab for the hands of their assailant and try to force them off their neck. As a few seconds pass and fear begins to take over, the "fight or flight" response is evoked. Since flight would be impossible, fighting would begin. Fingernails can be an effective weapon for causing a pain reaction and forcing an assailant to let go. It is also natural for a person to scrape and claw if that is the only action left available to them. Experience has shown that when this occurs, the assailants skin and blood will remain under the victims fingernails and can thus be collected and used as evidence."

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-cozart.html

If Meredith's hands were free, we can bet she would have been grabbing, scratching, poking etc. at her assailant - especially if there was only one attacker.

The fact she has nothing under her nails speaks volumes...there was absolutely more than one attacker.

Bye Bye AGAIN Lone Wolf Theory.
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 8:36 pm   Post subject: Maresca says:   

From Il Messaggero

According to Lawyers Francesco Maresca and Serena Pernas representing the family of Meredith Kercher:

“The biologist Patrizia Stefanoni has done a tremendous job and I think regarding these issues there is nothing more to discuss. She has ruled out any form of contamination, even if we discovered that it tends in a way enough to manifest, to say that, having Sollecito’s DNA for comparison, the result was almost prefabricated and then finalized in order to compare with his genetic code.
That is one further position of the two defenses –concluded Maresca- obviously they assist each other with respect of debating at the hearing”.
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 8:51 pm   Post subject:    

Brian wrote:
"As an example, a small item from Barbie Nadau's story which isn't explained or reported elsewhere:"

The blood drops (two) found in the light switch is not in Meredith's room but in the bathroom and mentioned before by GUP Micheli, see pg 4 of his report.

…Sulla placca in plastica dell’interruttore di accensione, è una goccia di sostanza ematica; una seconda goccia è presente sul pulsante di accensione (..).
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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 9:03 pm   Post subject: Auction over   

It must be the recession. The auction hammer has come down, and Raffaele Sollecito's 2 paintings didn't bring in what the auctioneers were expecting.

Jools, is the picture shown in the article attributed to Sollecito?

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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 10:52 pm   Post subject: Re: Auction over   

Tara wrote:
It must be the recession. The auction hammer has come down, and Raffaele Sollecito's 2 paintings didn't bring in what the auctioneers were expecting.

Jools, is the picture shown in the article attributed to Sollecito?

CORRIERE dell'UMBRIA GOOGLE

CORRIERE dell"UMBRIA ORIGINAL ITALIAN


Hi Tara,

Yes that's his other painting auctioned at 120 euros. He apparently had two paintings auctioned. The one I posted yesterday, "Frangibile" was sold @ 130 Euros. :lol:
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Offline Paula


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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 11:02 pm   Post subject:    

Can somebody please tell me whether Amanda, Raffaele and Rudy are right handed or left handed? Thanks
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Offline Greggy


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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 11:14 pm   Post subject:    

Hello Petafly,

Thanks ever so much for posting the graphs comparing the DNA results from the knife to the victim's wounds. Gosh, I love looking at actual data!!!
Every new protocol using a PCR amplification instrument has to be validated again and again before being accepted, but looking at those two superimposed graphs you posted and roughly figuring in standard deviations and area under the peaks by eye to assess significance, it is my hypothesis that the DNA on the knife and from MK's wounds are the same. They have nailed Ak47! The pattern and its amplification doesn't perfectly match, but I never thought the marker data would be that good considering all the equivocations asserted in the press. I hope the Italian scientists publish their results so my lab guys can employ their methodology to achieve higher sensitivity. I only wish they hadn't farmed out the evidence to Applied Biosystems for the results (they're our biggest competitor).

In my opinion, RS's Defense Team better make their move soon to sever their close association with Ak47. She is smelling like burnt toast.
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 11:30 pm   Post subject:    

Hi Greggy,

What's your take on the fact there were five instances of mixed DNA samples of Amanda Knox and Meredith in three different areas of the cottage? I'm especially interested to hear your opinion about Amanda Knox's DNA being mixed with Meredith's blood on the floor in Filomena's room. Barbie Nadeau thinks this piece evidence is probably more damning that the double DNA knife.
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Offline Greggy


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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 12:18 am   Post subject:    

Hello Machine,

For me, the mixture of MK's and Ak47's blood in Filomena's room is utterly damming, perhaps even beyond the knife evidence. In my opinion, the problem with the knife evidence is that, although it directly links MK and Ak47 to one of the purported murder weapons, the connection was obtained using unvalidated methodology. Having seen some of the results now, I think either the Italian scientists or those at that commercial company I won't mention were brilliant in their methodology to obtain a convincing match from only a crevasse on a reportedly bleached knife. That being said, the Defense Team will have a field day asserting that unvalidated "voodoo" PCR methodology was used to link their client and the knife to MK.

In contrast, the mixture of their blood in Filomena's room is a horrible turn for Ak47's Defense Team. How can they effectively assert their claim, like they have done in Ak47's and MK's shared bathroom, that the blood DNA evidence in Filomena's room was due to, euphemistically, normal shared activities of healthy young women. The two of them would never have been in Filomena's room together hanging out and indiscriminately bleeding. I suggest that if Amanda wasn't living in a dream, she would be feeling the tightening noose.
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 12:29 am   Post subject:    

Greggy wrote:
Hello Petafly,

Thanks ever so much for posting the graphs comparing the DNA results from the knife to the victim's wounds. Gosh, I love looking at actual data!!!
Every new protocol using a PCR amplification instrument has to be validated again and again before being accepted, but looking at those two superimposed graphs you posted and roughly figuring in standard deviations and area under the peaks by eye to assess significance, it is my hypothesis that the DNA on the knife and from MK's wounds are the same. They have nailed Ak47! The pattern and its amplification doesn't perfectly match, but I never thought the marker data would be that good considering all the equivocations asserted in the press. I hope the Italian scientists publish their results so my lab guys can employ their methodology to achieve higher sensitivity. I only wish they hadn't farmed out the evidence to Applied Biosystems for the results (they're our biggest competitor).

In my opinion, RS's Defense Team better make their move soon to sever their close association with Ak47. She is smelling like burnt toast.


Meredith's DNA on that knife is damning.

Now I understand why at the pre-trial back in October, Ghirga was mainly arguing contamination on the knife and not a poor sample. You can even look back at Frank comments on Perugia Shock at the time. Even he was surprised.

So where did this "match half of Italy come from". It came from Joe the sleuth back in Dec2007/Jan2008.

As even Frank now admits, the DNA charts from the knife and Meredith's wound match.

But Frank asks why Stefanoni unlocked the machine.

I'll give him an answer.

In the early days of DNA testing because it was so little understood, the courts in various countries set what amounted to "arbitrary levels" that the peaks should exceed in order to be considered valid by the courts.

But science doesn't work according to man made rules, it just ain't that simple.

More and more the "arbitrary levels" set by the courts are being challenged. A very noisy sample with peaks over 60 which the court may consider valid is in many cases worse than a less noisy sample with lower peaks. The argument is on and cases are being challenged, even in the US, that the validity of DNA evidence should not judged on a subjective level set to avoid judges and juries having to make an effort to understand the science. The argument will be had. The suggestion is that wrong people have been convicted on noisy samples which exceed the court imposed levels whilst guilty people have gotten away with it because their peaks, clear amongst the low volume noise don't obtain the level required by the court.

It's become obvious that this court is gonna have that argument.

And Ghirga thinks he'll lose. Best he go for contamination.

Amanda Knox has a real big problem with what is obviously Meredith's DNA on that knife.
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Offline Yummi


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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 12:35 am   Post subject:    

Quote:
I'm especially interested to hear your opinion about Amanda Knox's DNA being mixed with Meredith's blood on the floor in Filomena's room. Barbie Nadeau thinks this piece evidence is probably more damning that the double DNA knife.


This seems to me too among the heavviest, together with the system/distribution of barefoot prints on bathmat and floor, and with the bra clasp.
The location - Filomena's room - makes this droplet more strange, since it is off Amanda's living space. She probably never entered the room except that morning with Raffaele and then with Filomena.
I'm not expert to say if there is a way to contaminate a droplet with DNA by walking inside the room. But the fact there are other droplets with the same fetures, does look suspicious.
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Offline Greggy


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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 1:14 am   Post subject:    

Hello Brian,

You are correct in your assertion. The legal system didn't realize how quickly DNA data would be improved and set standards on this new methodology based on the results scientists originally were able to achieve. It is isn't the sheer magnitude of peaks, it is the signal-to-noise (S/N) ratio that is important - a direct comparison of the specific peaks to the background peaks. Generally in science, for a result to be considered significant you need a S/N ratio of at least 4:1, which is very roughly P<0.05 (i.e., the probability of the results being the same are 5%, or conversely, you are 95% confident there is a difference in the results). In brief, to be considered significant, a specific peak should be 4-times higher or have substantially more area than the background non-specific peaks. Before seeing the knife DNA results, based on press reports, I thought there may be spurious peaks due to artifacts from over-amplification or maybe even technician contamination of the evidence. The DNA results posted by Petafly evinces that is not the case. Although the novel methodology they used may be unvalidated, the results they obtained are impressive, and not good for Ak47. I applaud their ingenuity.
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Offline The 411


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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 1:18 am   Post subject:    

Greggy wrote:
In contrast, the mixture of their blood in Filomena's room is a horrible turn for Ak47's Defense Team. How can they effectively assert their claim, like they have done in Ak47's and MK's shared bathroom, that the blood DNA evidence in Filomena's room was due to, euphemistically, normal shared activities of healthy young women. The two of them would never have been in Filomena's room together hanging out and indiscriminately bleeding. I suggest that if Amanda wasn't living in a dream, she would be feeling the tightening noose.



Furthermore, and I realize this has probably been discussed before, but maybe it bears repeating
Any assertion that any of these AK/MK mixed blood samples are menstrual in origin, is just silly, and fruitless. The FOA can claim anything they want, but forensic scientists have long been able to make a differentiation between venous, arterial and menstrual blood.

In fact, I once watched a program about a married woman who disappeared under mysterious circumstances, in the U.S., some years ago. As I recall, her relatives reported her missing, but the husband insisted there was an innocent explanation, that the woman had merely taken a trip, and that she would return. For a while, there was no evidence anywhere to suggest foul play. But, as I recall, many months later, the police did a second inspection of the couple's bedroom. An investigator spotted a very, very tiny blood stain on the side of the couple's mattress, and questioned the husband about it.

The husband explained that his wife had heavy menstrual bleeding, and the stain was simply from her menstrual blood.
Finding that explanation unconvincing, the investigator made sure the blood stain was tested, and, sure enough, even with that tiny sample, back in the '80's, they were able to confirm that it was NOT menstrual blood, it was blood from a laceration. On the basis of that tiny sample, they were able to launch the murder investigation that later became known as "The Woodchipper Murder."

Here is a more recent abstract I found from "Forensic Science International"

"Identification of menstrual blood by real time RT-PCR: Technical improvements and the practical value of negative test results

Martin Bauera, Dieter Patzeltb


Received 23 August 2006; received in revised form 14 March 2007; accepted 18 March 2007. published online 02 June 2007.

Abstract
The identification of body fluids can be of crucial importance in forensic casework. Recently we have shown that the detection of cell- and tissue-specific mRNAs is a suitable technique to identify menstrual blood and semen. In this paper we present an improved method using real time-PCR and the menstrual blood marker MMP-7 which increases sensitivity and specificity. We furthermore demonstrate case examples described showing that the correct identification of samples as non-menstrual is likely to be in the focus of criminal investigations. Although negative test results may have a number of other reasons, the new technique provides quantitative results thus allowing a cut-off value for the control marker GAPDH to be defined, below which negative results for the menstrual blood marker MMP-7 allow the conclusion that the sample was indeed not menstrual blood. Using these data, it is possible to apply the molecular identification of menstrual blood to forensic casework considering both the limitations and the capabilities of the method."
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 1:35 am   Post subject:    

More on DNA. Not the technicalities, that's Nicki's and Greggy's field :D, but on Joe the sleuths argument and "odds" or "probability". Probability, I understand.

Quote:
In the early days of the use of genetic fingerprinting as criminal evidence, juries were often swayed by spurious statistical arguments by defense lawyers along these lines: given a match that had a 1 in 5 million probability of occurring by chance, the lawyer would argue that this meant that in a country of say 60 million people there were 12 people who would also match the profile. This was then translated to a 1 in 12 chance of the suspect being the guilty one. This argument is not sound unless the suspect was drawn at random from the population of the country. In fact, a jury should consider how likely it is that an individual matching the genetic profile would also have been a suspect in the case for other reasons. Another spurious statistical argument is based on the false assumption that a 1 in 5 million probability of a match automatically translates into a 1 in 5 million probability of guilt and is known as the prosecutor's fallacy.

The prosecutor's fallacy is any of several fallacies of statistical reasoning often used in legal arguments. Two of the most common errors are described below:

* One form of the fallacy results from misunderstanding conditional probability, or neglecting the prior odds of a defendant being guilty; i.e., the chance an individual might be guilty even though there's no evidence directly implicating him/her. When a prosecutor has collected some evidence (for instance a DNA match) and has an expert testify that the probability of finding this evidence if the accused were innocent is tiny, the fallacy occurs if it is concluded that the probability of the accused being innocent must be comparably tiny. The probability of innocence would only be the same small value if the prior odds of guilt were exactly 1:1. In reality the probability of guilt would depend on other circumstances. If the person is already suspected for other reasons, then the probability of guilt would be very high, whereas if he is otherwise totally unconnected to the case, then we should consider a much lower prior probability of guilt, such as the overall rate of offenders in the populace for the crime in question, and the probability of guilt would be much lower.

* Another form of the fallacy results from misunderstanding the idea of multiple testing, such as when evidence is compared against a large database. The size of the database elevates the likelihood of finding a match by pure chance alone; i.e., DNA evidence is soundest when a match is found after a single directed comparison because the existence of matches against a large database where the test sample is of poor quality (common for recovered evidence) is very likely by mere chance.

The terms "prosecutor's fallacy" and "defense attorney's fallacy" were originated by William C. Thompson and Edward Schumann in their classic article Interpretation of Statistical Evidence in Criminal Trials: The Prosecutor's Fallacy and the Defense Attorney's Fallacy (1987).


All from Wikipedia

Two samples of DNA were taken from the knife. One from the handle and one from the knife. They weren't compared to any large database. They were compared to the DNA of 4 people.

The DNA on the handle matched Amanda Knox. The DNA on the blade matched Meredith Kercher.

Joe the sleuth and FOA are welcome to their defense attorneys fallacy. They are still living in the early days of DNA testing.

I'll give Ghirga his due, he ain't falling for that. He's more up to date. He'll go for contamination.

Meredith's DNA on the knife doesn't appear contaminated with external DNA at all. He'll have to go for cross contamination in the lab. The knife came from RS apartment. None of Meredith's DNA there. I believe that the suggestion was made at the pre-trial that the policemen who collected the knife may have gone from the cottage to his place but that transpired to not be the case. Ghirga was also keen to suggest that contamination may have come from the shirt box. With the kind of A1 match we see here I don't think that is gonna fly either.


Last edited by Brian S. on Mon May 25, 2009 2:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 1:36 am   Post subject:    

Yummi wrote:
But the fact there are other droplets with the same fetures, does look suspicious.


There were five instances of Knox's DNA mixed with Meredith's blood:

1. On the drain of the bidet.

2. On the ledge of the sink.

3. On the top of the box of cotton swabs.

4. The luminol-enhanced bloody footprints in the hallway.

5. On a spot of luminol-enhanced blood on the floor in Filomena's room.

Amanda Knox's and Meredith's DNA was found on the double DNA knife.

The forensic evidence above is damning. The other evidence against her is also incriminating: the multiple alibis and repeated lies; the conflicting and contrasting witness statements; her confession that she was at the cottage when Meredith was killed; her knowledge of precise details of Meredith's body and her murder; the highly suspicious mobile phone activity at the time when Meredith was killed; her false and malicious accusation of Diya Lumumba; her bizarre and inappropriate behaviour in the days following Meredith's murder; numerous witnesses flatly contradicting her claims, the eyewitness testimony placing her in the vicinity of the cottage on the night of the murder; the staging of the break in and the tampering with the crime scene.
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Offline thoughtful


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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 7:46 am   Post subject:    

"From the photographs of the blood pattern we can see that when Meredith was fatally knifed in the throat she was no more than 40cm from the floor. She was kneeling down in front of the wardrobe, her face was pressed almost to the floor, she was on her knees..."

Can somebody explain how Camana's description of how the murder occurred can be compatible with a stab wound to the throat? At 40cm from the floor with a 20 inch knife? I don't understand how this is possible. It really was not a stab from behind? It is really difficult to speak about this graphic part of the murder, but it does seem as though this is totally incompatible with the picture of Amanda standing in front holding a knife, in fact it seems only compatible with a wound from the back from the left side.

I understand why Kelly Brodbeck was presented the position as low down but face-up. Otherwise it seems to contradict all we have heard about the throat.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 8:33 am   Post subject:    

Thoughtfull wrote:
Can somebody explain how Camana's description of how the murder occurred can be compatible with a stab wound to the throat? At 40cm from the floor with a 20 inch knife? I don't understand how this is possible



Cos some one can't get their metric conversions right.


http://docs.google.com/File?id=dfpc46js_185d562tncv_b - The Knife

This is the same pic as Frank posted at Perugia Shock.

He called it a 19" knife.

[s]I[/s] Some anonymous wiseguy informed him that it appeared the knife was only just over 30cm on the scale which accompanied it.

Frank deleted [s]my[/s] his post and changed his text to read 12.20 inches. Maybe the blade is 19/20cm??

Another point of interest to note from looking at this pic:

At the blade end of the handle there is a raised guard area to prevent the hand slipping along to the blade.

Stefononi said the location of the DNA suggested the knife had been used in a piecing motion. I suggest that perhaps Amanda's DNA was found in a crack up against this guard.
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Offline thoughtful


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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 9:16 am   Post subject:    

Even without mixing metrics and having a knife longer than the space to fit it in, I still don't get it. The picture you posted is a bit fuzzy, but there is a measuring ruler in centimeters next to the knife which is probably a 20cm ruler. This shows that the knife is well over 20cm long. Comparing to the ruler, I measure the knife as 31-32 cm, with a blade that may well be 19cm long. Camana speaks of 40cm from the floor.

Using the knife in a piercing motion means that the knife would be vertical, pointing upwards, held by a hand at floor level, with an upwards leverage of about 8-9 cm (3 1/2 inches-- a handsbreadth). This still seems like an impossible gesture to me. The height of the bloodstain on the inner wall of the closet is indeed very low so there is no doubt that the wound was inflicted at this height. But from the front?

I am definitely not shedding doubt on Camana's testimony. I am sure he figured out what happened. I just do not think the way this testimony has been reported makes sense.

PS to Skeptical: I know you think the best reporters cannot afford to make any errors in their reports (we were discussing Andrea Vogt and the testimony about flyers), but they do make a few not necessarily major but still confusing ones nonetheless! There have been a lot over the months, the latest being Nick Pisa's confusing "Laura Romanelli".

PPS to Michael: Thank you VERY much for making Kermit's powerpoints visible online. About our recent exchange, I was reacting to the expression "this has ALL been discussed many times", about my remark on Fiori's new scenarios which had only just appeared. More tolerant reaction next time, perhaps...but thanks for your clarification!
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 9:42 am   Post subject:    

Just a bit more detail on the wound "as I have come to understand it."

Although it's towards the front of the neck it is actually side to side. The knife wouldn't have been held under Meredith's neck pointing upwards so much as below and to the side, with the blade just off parallel to the floor.
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Offline Jools


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Location: Spain

PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 9:42 am   Post subject:    

From Il Messaggero:
...“When strike by the knife which then proved fatal, Meredith Kercher neck was 40 cm from the floor. She was in front of one of the wardrobe doors in her bedroom.” The reconstruction by the physicists of the scientific police at the Perugia Court of assize, Francesco Camana compiled a study of blood drops trajectory found in the bedroom.

These 25 tracks photographed and examined one by one through the so-called Blood pattern analysis. All drops were identified by the wardrobe. According to Camana’s study, who at the time directed crime investigation section of ballistics, placed the point of origin of the blood namely Meredith’s neck at a height between 30 and 50 cm from the ground, believing as most likely value of 40 cm. The physicist has suggested that could be the position of the body, explaining that this is "plausible" but equal with the others. Based in his experience, Camana has placed Meredith with the torso forward and her face perhaps turned down, knees on the ground and her legs stretched behind. According to prosecution brought in court by Comodi and Mignini, the reconstruction leads to another result: with Meredith in that position there’s space for other people to be inside the bedroom. And only: with Meredith in that position only more people could kill her: there was those who held her and those who strike her.
http://tinyurl.com/onpq3v
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Offline Yummi


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Location: Bunga-Bunga Republic

PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 10:33 am   Post subject:    

The Machine wrote:

Quote:
details of Meredith's body and her murder; the highly suspicious mobile phone activity at the time when Meredith was killed; her false and malicious accusation of Diya Lumumba; her bizarre and inappropriate behaviour in the days following Meredith's murder; numerous witnesses flatly contradicting her claims, the eyewitness testimony placing her in the vicinity of the cottage on the night of the murder; the staging of the break in and the tampering with the crime scene.


It is not that I want to critizise your commitment to find truth, but I think when we are speaking about evidence to convict somebody we have to be neutral and *very* serious on each point.

The five elements you quoted as damning, do not look all the same to me. Some of them are surfaces where the possible presence of Amanda's DNA may be considered obvious. The ledge of the sink and cotton sawbs box are quite irrelevant. Instead, the luminol enhanced footprint appears more significant.
Her false and malicious accusation of Diya Lumumba appears significantly suspicious to me, although it is a clue and not an evidence. Her bizarre and inappropriate behaviour in the days following Meredith's murder, instead, could be also related to the fact that she is bizarre and inappropriate as a person. Realizing that somebody is a liar, or a disturbed person, is one step, which I don't feel to be automatically as an evidence of guilt for something else.
Her knowledge of precise details of Meredith's body is - imo - also not usable, since some of those precise details appered to be wrong: she boosted false informations about the body. Other elements of suspicion anc clues can still be valid, in fact she is in prison. This evidence is however still circumstantial and thus there are still some keystones - like mixed droplets out of place or ythe bra clasp, and the attribution of the footprint on the bathmat - which are of most importance to make the system of clues "work".
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 10:59 am   Post subject:    

thoughtful wrote:
PS to Skeptical: I know you think the best reporters cannot afford to make any errors in their reports (we were discussing Andrea Vogt and the testimony about flyers), but they do make a few not necessarily major but still confusing ones nonetheless! There have been a lot over the months, the latest being Nick Pisa's confusing "Laura Romanelli".


Hi thoughtful,

Do you have an examples of Barbie Nadeau or Andrea Vogt making any errors in their reports?

Andrew Marr, who is a highly respected British journalist and television presenter, pointed out that Sky News make errors because they always try to get their reports out very quickly. It was clear from Nick Pisa's report that he was referring to Filomena Romanelli because he mentioned the staged break in:

"A blood stain found in the bedroom of flatmate Laura Romanelli was also found to have DNA from Knox and Miss Kercher.

The prosecution claims a window was smashed in Ms Romanelli's bedroom to make the murder look like a bungled break-in
."

Nick Pisa has made two claims which are untrue. He claimed recently that Amanda Knox has always maintained that she was at Raffaele Sollecito's apartment, which is clearly not true because she stated on three separate occasions that she was at the cottage when Meredith was killed. He also claimed there is no muder weapon as if that is a weakness in the prosecution's case. However, the prosecution has made it quite clear that they think the double DNA is most likely to be the murder weapon and they have never said there is no murder weapon.

There have been lots of errors in the reporting of the case and the worst offenders are the innocentisti journalists and reporters. Peter Popham didn't know some very basic facts about the case; the names of Meredith's family and the fact that Sollecito hadn't called 112 before the postal police arrived at the cottage. ABC News and CBS News have consistently got their facts wrong.

Peter Van Sant stated the following inaccuracies in his gushy preview of the CBS News documentary

Amanda Knox was questioned for 14 hours.

she was given no food or water.

She was struck during the course of the investigation.

The prosecution claim Meredith was killed during a satanic ritual.

Mignini relies heavily on Italian blogger Gabriella Carlizzi.

There is a whole section on TJMK devoted to the reporting of the case. The likes of Richard Owen, Barbie Nadeau, Andrea Vogt and Anne Wise are the most highly rated.
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2308

PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 11:36 am   Post subject:    

Yummi wrote:
The five elements you quoted as damning, do not look all the same to me. Some of them are surfaces where the possible presence of Amanda's DNA may be considered obvious. The ledge of the sink and cotton sawbs box are quite irrelevant.Instead, the luminol enhanced footprint appears more significant.

I think the number of instances of Amanda Knox's DNA mixed with Meredith's blood is significant. Like Knox's lies, the more instances there are, the more significance they gain. I agree that that the luminol footprint and the mixed droplet in Filomena's room are more significant. However, I don't agree that Knox's and Meredith's mixed blood on the cotton swab box or the ledge of the sink are irrelevant. The mixed blood on the bidet could be attributed to menstrual bleeding. I don't think the blood the other instances of Knox's and Meredith's mixed blood can be put down to menstrual bleeding.

Yummi wrote:
Her false and malicious accusation of Diya Lumumba appears significantly suspicious to me, although it is a clue and not an evidence.


Knox's false and malicious accusation of Diya Lumumba will be interpreted by the judges and the jury as the actions of somebody who is guilty of involvement in Meredith's murder and not the misguided actions of somebody who is innocent. I believe that Knox will be found guilty of slandering Diya Lumumba.

Yummi wrote:
Her bizarre and inappropriate behaviour in the days following Meredith's murder, instead, could be also related to the fact that she is bizarre and inappropriate as a person. Realizing that somebody is a liar, or a disturbed person, is one step, which I don't feel to be automatically as an evidence of guilt for something else.


NBC's highly-respected consultant Clint Van Zandt, the former FBI profiler and evidence analyst, stated that Amanda Knox's and Raffaele Sollecito's behaviour in the days following Meredith's murder was "highly-telling". I think the judges and jury will interpret Knox's bizarre and inappropriate as proof that she is a disturbed individual and that she was traumatised by what she had done. Knox's shaking fits when she was questioned by Mignini and when she was taken to the cottage looks extremely suspicious. The fact she was hitting herself repeatedly on the head when Sollecito was being questioned indicates that she was seriously agitated and anxious because she knew the police were closing in on her and Sollecito.

Yummi wrote:
Her knowledge of precise details of Meredith's body is - imo - also not usable, since some of those precise details appered to be wrong: she boosted false informations about the body.


Judge Paolo Micheli, who carefully studied the prosecution's 10,000 page report for several months, believed that both Knox and Sollecito knew precise details about Meredith's body and murder. It is telling that Knox referred to Meredith's killers rather than killer.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 12:01 pm   Post subject:    

More on the knifing:





When Meredith was killed her head was somewhere above her blue zipped top in front of the wardrobe (see 2nd pic) and the top of her head was towards the wardrobe where the door is slid open and her knees/feet back where the carpet is in the 2nd pic.

The blood spots which were used to determine the exact position have been variously referred to as being located on the door of the wardrobe, on the floor, on the carpet(Nick Pisa - see pic 1 for original location against the wall) and on the wall "at the back of the wardrobe".

I propose that "the wall at the back of the wardrobe" should be read as referring to the back wall above the carpet.

Thus the blood spray from Meredith's wound didn't travel towards the wardrobe. It travelled towards the wall above the carpet, some spots " elongated across" the door, some spots on the carpet/floor and some spots on the wall. In the general direction of C,Dand A in the 2nd pic.

ie. It came from the side of her neck .


Because I have seen another pic from a different angle I can say that E is in fact a smear of blood on the inside surface of the wardrobe side which looks as if it was made by a hand, Meredith's ??? It isn't "spots" which have fallen from a spray of blood
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 1:04 pm   Post subject:    

Thoughtful wrote:

Quote:
PS to Skeptical: I know you think the best reporters cannot afford to make any errors in their reports (we were discussing Andrea Vogt and the testimony about flyers), but they do make a few not necessarily major but still confusing ones nonetheless! There have been a lot over the months, the latest being Nick Pisa's confusing "Laura Romanelli".


Sorry, I have limited computer access right now so I can't reply at length, but I NEVER said that the best (or any reporters) cannot afford to make ANY errors. Everyone makes errors. If you recall, I was comparing the liability constraints that reporters face as opposed to, say, random bloggers or posters on a message board. I also faulted your logic, as you seemed to be stating that since Stewart Home (a random poster who happened to be in the courtroom) did not specifically state what Vogt reported Lumumba as testifying, she must be wrong. I did not state or imply that she (and other reliable reporters) have made no errors. With regard to this case, you might want to look at all her reports filed so far (they are available as clickable links on her own web site) and see if she has made any.

Of course, even reliable reporters get things wrong sometimes, Nick Pisa's use of "Laura" instead of "Filomena" being an example. His editor should have spotted that one. That's what editors are for. I am sure that Nick Pisa knows very well that Filomena's last name is Romanelli. But he, like other professional reporters working on this case, faces tight deadlines. Errors are inevitable. This minor one is correctible and got corrected.

And I hope that your mischaracterization of what I said now stands corrected.

_________________
Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point; on le sait en mille choses.
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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 1:58 pm   Post subject:    

It’s probably obvious with hindsight, but in “normal”, non-murderous, everyday daily life, kitchen knives can be used for other things besides chopping up mushrooms.


The scene:

My 2008 edition of Lonely Planet guide to Italy says:
Quote:

A growing drug problem in Perugia means it’s best to use the bagni at a bar or restaurant to steer clear of public toilets (and syringes etc).

Damien Simonis et al., Lonely Planet: Italy (2008), p549.



What happened yesterday:

The Guardia di Finanza (functionally equivalent to the old Customs and Excise Men (UK) or ATF (US)) did a sweep of Perugia yesterday, in particular along

Quote:

…Piazza 4th-November. And turned up a surprise. Drugs are being hidden in the fissures of the walls of medieval Perugia, left there by the drug dealers for picking up by their clients. …

…thanks to anti-drugs dog Talor, uncovering 70 grams of hashish and various doses of cocaine and heroin, all ably hidden in various narrow cavities or in the numerous fissures of the ancient walls of the streets and lanes of the city centre. But that’s not all: in an electric fittings box in via San Paolo (not two steps from San Francesco al Prato church), besides drugs, the agents found and seized a large knife, which, according to the troopers, was left there ready for “cutting” the gear. …

[CdU] 25 May 2009






The full Italian-language article is archived [here].

I'll put up a picture of the knife they found after ImagePoster is back online.

[hr]
Edited to add:
Here's the knife they found:


Last edited by Catnip on Wed May 27, 2009 8:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Shirley


Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:48 pm

Posts: 376

PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 2:04 pm   Post subject:    

The 411 wrote:


Furthermore, and I realize this has probably been discussed before, but maybe it bears repeating
Any assertion that any of these AK/MK mixed blood samples are menstrual in origin, is just silly, and fruitless. The FOA can claim anything they want, but forensic scientists have long been able to make a differentiation between venous, arterial and menstrual blood.

In fact, I once watched a program about a married woman who disappeared under mysterious circumstances, in the U.S., some years ago. As I recall, her relatives reported her missing, but the husband insisted there was an innocent explanation, that the woman had merely taken a trip, and that she would return. For a while, there was no evidence anywhere to suggest foul play. But, as I recall, many months later, the police did a second inspection of the couple's bedroom. An investigator spotted a very, very tiny blood stain on the side of the couple's mattress, and questioned the husband about it.

The husband explained that his wife had heavy menstrual bleeding, and the stain was simply from her menstrual blood.
Finding that explanation unconvincing, the investigator made sure the blood stain was tested, and, sure enough, even with that tiny sample, back in the '80's, they were able to confirm that it was NOT menstrual blood, it was blood from a laceration. On the basis of that tiny sample, they were able to launch the murder investigation that later became known as "The Woodchipper Murder."

Here is a more recent abstract I found from "Forensic Science International"

"Identification of menstrual blood by real time RT-PCR: Technical improvements and the practical value of negative test results

Martin Bauera, Dieter Patzeltb


Received 23 August 2006; received in revised form 14 March 2007; accepted 18 March 2007. published online 02 June 2007.

Abstract
The identification of body fluids can be of crucial importance in forensic casework. Recently we have shown that the detection of cell- and tissue-specific mRNAs is a suitable technique to identify menstrual blood and semen. In this paper we present an improved method using real time-PCR and the menstrual blood marker MMP-7 which increases sensitivity and specificity. We furthermore demonstrate case examples described showing that the correct identification of samples as non-menstrual is likely to be in the focus of criminal investigations. Although negative test results may have a number of other reasons, the new technique provides quantitative results thus allowing a cut-off value for the control marker GAPDH to be defined, below which negative results for the menstrual blood marker MMP-7 allow the conclusion that the sample was indeed not menstrual blood. Using these data, it is possible to apply the molecular identification of menstrual blood to forensic casework considering both the limitations and the capabilities of the method."



Hi 411. Thank you for this. The menstrual acrobatics that would be necessary to produce such mixed blood samples is ludicrous and tiring so it's great to have some science pointing to why.
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