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V. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 2 - Dec 31, 08

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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 5:52 pm   Post subject: Re: Drug tests   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
TM wrote:

Quote:
Someone raised an interesting point on the TJMK board. Were Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito given a drugs test once they became suspects? You would think that it would be standard procedure when a murder involved a frenzied attack.


I have never seen this question answered, but looked into the question of drug testing awhile ago, mainly to see how it is done and what the time frames are. I'm sure there are posters here who are far more qualified than I am who could enlighten us. I do remember reading, though, that for some drugs testing is done five or more days after the date of ingestion, which is the time it takes for the residue to embed itself in human hair.

I'll see if I can find this information again, but would be grateful if someone else has something to share. (Nicki? Michael?)

Skep:

I seem to recall someone at Porta a Porta saying that they were screened for drug abuse and resulted negative. A standard drugs of abuse screening panel would include:Amphetamines, Barbiturics, Benzodiazepines, Cocaine, Cannabiods, Methadone,Opiates. I'll try to listen to the show again and confirm it.
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:06 pm   Post subject: Cocinera Felliniana   

nicki wrote:
Jools wrote:
Kermit porfa manda a la otra rana a la Cocinera Felliniana con esa noticia, con un poco de suerte se atrangantan todos durante un rato!


Jools,

Eres fantastica:"la Cocinera Felliniana"... no better way to describe this character! :D


Ciao bella Nicki,

She is isn’t she? (Propio una pagliaccia) :lol:

The way she describes Italy and Italians way of life… The resentment and patronising theme forever there. The ‘Burina Calabresse’ turned of the century poor idea of Italy is present there, and nothing to do with today’s Italy, not even from what supposedly are her expert subjects, food and travel.

Trying to see Italy, it’s people, it’s culture through her scatty mind writings is just so hilarious, it’s comic and insulting at the same time. Perhaps is to do with the immigrant mentality, and those childhood stories that she was told… Still, there is no excuse, in 2008 with the knowledge there is out there and so easily accessible to have that point of view about Italy, specially if you go around pretending to be –IW- and like to project the idea that you are an authority in everything Italian.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:20 pm   Post subject: Re: Drug tests   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
TM wrote:

Quote:
Someone raised an interesting point on the TJMK board. Were Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito given a drugs test once they became suspects? You would think that it would be standard procedure when a murder involved a frenzied attack.


I have never seen this question answered, but looked into the question of drug testing awhile ago, mainly to see how it is done and what the time frames are. I'm sure there are posters here who are far more qualified than I am who could enlighten us. I do remember reading, though, that for some drugs testing is done five or more days after the date of ingestion, which is the time it takes for the residue to embed itself in human hair.

I'll see if I can find this information again, but would be grateful if someone else has something to share. (Nicki? Michael?)


Hi Skep,

Well, I've not been able to find anything as of yet on a '6 day' time period for drugs to get in hair, but here's something on the potential of the test and how far back in a testee's history it can provide a reading:


"Hair testing is considered accurate and can go back as far as 90 days.[16], As hair grows out, any drugs used are encased in the hair shaft. Longer hair can reveal an individual's drug history spanning a longer period than shorter hair. Human hair grows an average of .5 inches/month, which corresponds to 30 days of possible drug testing for approximately every .5 inch. Testing laboratories generally require between 0.5 and 1.5 inches for testing. This represents approximately 30 to 90 days of drug use. The standard for hair 1.5 inches or longer is 80 strand or 120 if only .5 inches as it is by picogram weight that the hair is uniformly tested. Some people attempt to circumvent this through shaving their heads. This does not usually work. In the absence of the required amount of hair on the scalp, body hair can be used as an acceptable substitute in the order of face, chest, arm pit, and on some occasions the police use leg hair that has a shorter slower growth rate. If all hair is shaven, the follicles of the hair may be used in place of the hair. Hair follicle testing is normally not part of an employer-based drug testing program using hair."

HAIR DRUG TESTING


But, hair testing cannot tell which 'day' any given substance has been taken, rather only give an outlay of 'what' drugs have been taken at some 'general' point in their recent history. In other words, it wouldn't be able to tell us if the suspects were on any drugs on the actual day Meredith was murdered.

For the science of how the procedure works also view A Survey of Probation Officers Concerning the Use of Hair Testing for Illicit Substances

IF...there is a 6 day time gap before drugs present in hair, I would assume that drugs ingested in more recent days can be detected via a urine test. Since that is easier to do, I would think that if a hair test is done, a urine test would also be done. But, of course, we can only speculate at the moment, as any such tests if performed by the ILE haven't yet been released into the public domain.

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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:25 pm   Post subject:    

Skep,

This was a subject much discussed back on the early Haloscans.

I don't remember that it was ever known back then if a drugs test had taken place.

Non expert opinion had it that any test would have taken place at least 4 days after the event.

and:

Cannabis would still be detected (this one is well known to hang around and can be detected up to a month or so later in a blood test.) Non expert opinion also thought that opiate related drugs might also still be apparent. But date rape type drugs are well known to leave the system within hours. I don't know about LSD related stuff or cocaine. The problem with hair tests is they can't fix any date. Sollecito has admitted heavy use of cannabis and some use of acid. They both admit to cannabis on the night.

It wouldn't surprise me at all, if any blood/urine test was negative for everything except cannabis and that's the only kind of test which could really play a significant part in the trial.


Last edited by Brian S. on Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:26 pm   Post subject: Re: Dateloine   

DakotaJune wrote:
Hey guys, if anyone wants to watch (or archive) the video of the entire episode of the Dateline special here is a link to a bittorrent file:
http://www.mininova.org/get/2069206

If you have never used bittorrent before you need to download a client first (http://www.utorrent.com/download.php) and then load the .torrent file in it.


Hi DakotaJune, welcome to the board and thanks for taking the time to make the Dateline prog aaccessible :)

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:35 pm   Post subject: Re: Drug Testing   

Here's a good guide on what drugs can be tested in hair and for how long back in time:



[web]http://www.toxassociates.com/hair.htm[/web]

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:50 pm   Post subject: Re: Dateline   

Indie, Guermantes -

Thank you for your summations of the Dateline prog :) The video clips can now be viewed directly on our board DATELINE VIDEO CLIPS - DEC 5, 08

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Last edited by Michael on Sun Dec 07, 2008 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:52 pm   Post subject: Drugs   

Thanks, Michael. In fact, that was my original source, but I confused .5/month with 5 days! Or maybe it was the 5-14 day turnaround that stuck with me. The website sells its services and touts the virtues of hair testing (its area of expertise) over urine analysis, but there is no reason to think that the data provided isn't accurate.

Most employers use urine testing simply because testing is often done ex post facto. Recently, my mother-in-law told me about someone she knows who was fired from his job as a delivery truck driver when he had a minor traffic accident on the job. He is a regular toker and a urine test revealed traces of cannabis in his system. He didn't contest the decision to fire him.

In the case of AK and RS, both have admitted to being under the influence. This raises at least three questions for me:

1. Are they being truthful about which drug(s) they were under the influence of? Cannabis is considered by many to be a relatively harmless recreational drug; so admitting to having used it would not be shocking.

2. But what about the claim that their inability to remember and propensity to contradict themselves is due to the recreational use of cannabis on the day and into the night of November 1? In part because cannabis is such a banal substance, and because most of us have tried it and/or use it on occasion or even regularly, the claim about memory loss is counter-intuitive at best.

3. Who did they (in particular Raffaele) buy drugs from? What other drugs does this dealer sell?
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Offline nowo


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:53 pm   Post subject:    

Toxicology in a recent case in the UK:
"Shannon Matthews was systematically doped with anti-depressants and a cocktail of prescription drugs including opiates, it can be revealed today after her mother was convicted of the child’s abduction. During the seven-week trial the jury was told that Shannon was drugged with sleeping pills for at least 20 months before her imprisonment. The court was not told that toxicology tests showed that Shannon had also been given a further three prescription drugs - two potent painkillers and an anti-depressant - over the same period. The doping of the young schoolgirl may even have happened over more than 20 months. That was merely the growth period of the 20cm-length of shoulder-length, medium-brown hair taken from Shannon for testing."
(from the Times)
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:54 pm   Post subject: Re: Cocinera Felliniana   

Jools wrote:
nicki wrote:
Jools wrote:
Kermit porfa manda a la otra rana a la Cocinera Felliniana con esa noticia, con un poco de suerte se atrangantan todos durante un rato!


Jools,

Eres fantastica:"la Cocinera Felliniana"... no better way to describe this character! :D


Ciao bella Nicki,

She is isn’t she? (Propio una pagliaccia) :lol:

The way she describes Italy and Italians way of life… The resentment and patronising theme forever there. The ‘Burina Calabresse’ turned of the century poor idea of Italy is present there, and nothing to do with today’s Italy, not even from what supposedly are her expert subjects, food and travel.

Trying to see Italy, it’s people, it’s culture through her scatty mind writings is just so hilarious, it’s comic and insulting at the same time. Perhaps is to do with the immigrant mentality, and those childhood stories that she was told… Still, there is no excuse, in 2008 with the knowledge there is out there and so easily accessible to have that point of view about Italy, specially if you go around pretending to be –IW- and like to project the idea that you are an authority in everything Italian.


Ciao Guapa :-)

You couldn't have said better! She manages to reach the highest levels in self-ridiculization in many ways, including when she attempts to write/translate Italian, a language she obviously ignores. It always amazes me to see how ignorant and arrogant some people can be when they pose as expert connoiseurs of an entire country they hardly know, and that has nothing to do with some personal childhood memories of Calabrian immigrants who left a poverty-stricken area of Italy a very long time ago.

Years ago, I've read that after visiting Little Italy in New York during a festivity period, an Italian politician from the South reported having seen folklore that had long ago disappeared from the areas where it originated from. So, as you have very correctly pointed out, it's the immigrant mentality. Just because one is of European descent, it doesn't automatically make a person an expert about the specific country their ancestors came from.
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 7:37 pm   Post subject:    

Clint Van Zandt reply to a question by Indie.

Q)
Clint,
Setting aside this case, because I know you need to be somewhat objective as a member of the media, I would like your thoughts IN GENERAL about the notion, "good, well-educated, kind, nice, wouldn't hurt a flea, do anything for you" kids could not commit a crime such as Meredith's murder.

A)
Indie,
I guess we can go back to the time of Christ and the crowd picking up the chant to crucify Him. Your statement has been my experience when one, two, three, or a group of people are together it is many times easier to go with the crowd than to be the lone person to say "No, this is wrong!"

I have done a number of psychological autopsies on killer after the fact. As you state, many people will tell you how goo, kind, well educated, gentle, etc., they are when in reality they just took a human life in some terrible manner. We have seen mothers (and fathers) kill their young or unborn children, husbands kill their wives (love, honor and obey...), wives of pastors shotgun their husbands to death, and on and on. For most, the act of violence, the act of murder was the first they had committed. While I do not believe that people just snap and commit murder (in the case of workplace violence), i.e., there are always behavioral clues to the forthcoming aberrant behavior, we, as society, disregard or miss these signs that pass without notice until murder takes place. There is usually a combination of factors that allow participation in group murder, perhaps substance abuse, perhaps a special relationship with one or more of the other defendants, perhaps something going on in their life that is new or challenging, or maybe a bad hair day...

In my case I learned the hard way that good kids, and good people in general can commit terrible crimes - take the parents who molest their own children for example.
We have the option of choice and we can make very bad choices for which there is no "take back" in life. We are then left to deal with something we said or did in a few moments for which we are accountable for the rest of our life. Take Dan Quayle, our 41st VP, and his historic spelling of "potatoe" as a final example. Then consider the Scott Petersons and Drew Petersons and the Lizzie Bordens of this world.

Be Safe!
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 7:37 pm   Post subject: Making connections   

TM wrote (about Candace's refusal to answer Trieste's question about Funnycat):

Quote:
What is there to hide indeed? I think I can answer Trieste's question:
A relationship with Madison Paxton who runs the Free Amanda and Raffaele facebook group.
A relationship with Edda Mellas who is Amanda Knox's mother.
A relationship with Doug Longhini who was responsible for the dreadful 48 Mystery on CBS News.
A book deal that she kept secret from her readers. She only admitted it after she had been rumbled by Fast Pete on the True Justice For Meredith Kercher website.
The fact that funnycat is her sister. A fact she has NEVER acknowledged, but just pretended that she was a forensic expert.
Introducing the key players from Team Knox like Doug Preston and Frank from Perugia Shock to each other.


I would like to preface my remarks below with a disclaimer, to the attention of some particularly inattentive readers from elsewhere who look in here (and who are encouraged and welcome to do so, of course). It goes like this: Below, I am MERELY speculating. I am not making any factual claims. My speculations are based on some fairly unsophisticated googling + a couple of intuitive leaps.

It is apparently obvious to many people what the link between Candace and Funnycat is. It is not too difficult to discern, even though it has never been explicitly stated (except, apparently, by Frank yesterday and I would take him as a highly reliable source in this case) by any of the trusted sources. Once you make this connection and assume it as a research hypothesis, it is fairly easy (in fact it is way too easy) to find out many things about Funnycat, including her real name. I don't know if Candace is aware of just how easy she has made this. Once you have hit upon this information, it is possible to find out other things about Funnycat.

Of course, this could be all wrong, since it relies on some unproven hypotheses. However, I believe the reason Candace does not want to acknowledge this link is that it would enable people to get an accurate handle on Funnycat's degree of expertise in scientific matters.

In fact, in my opinion this is the only reason to even care about the connection between Candace and Funnycat. It is true that Funnycat gets awfully special treatment over at the table; but so do a couple of other posters. So what? Candace can always say it's because Funnycat has always been nice to her, so why shouldn't she be nice to FC?

In addition, Candace and Funnycat share some stylistic and attitude ticks. For example, they both have a tendency to go after the person rather than the argument if they don't like the person. Candace has on occasion written about her siblings and how they grew up. Maybe the shoot-from-the-hip ad hominim attack mode is just how they rolled in the Dempsey household.

Had Candace not designated Funnycat as her "science person," I would not give a toss about who Funnycat is. And if Funnycat hadn't made disparaging comments about Nicki, whose credentials are impeccable and probably obvious to anyone with scientific training, I wouldn't have given it a second glance.

As for the rest, it is true that Candace did not disclose the information about her book deal until she was outed by Fast Pete. It may have been, as she says, an open secret, but in that case why wait for this ticking time bomb to explode? Why not detonate it beforehand? That's Candace's business, of course, but it looks bad. It looks bad because it suggests a profit motive and that strikes many people as unsavory given that this case has not yet gone to trial. Personally, aside from how this looks, I don't think Candace or anyone should be banned from writing about any subject that strikes their fancy. Nobody has to buy it if they don't approve of the process.

What about the relationship between Candace and Edda Mellas? I don't know that there was one before Candace got her book deal and Edda became a source. Access to the family or potential access is probably one of the keys to selling a book proposal in this case. What about the Kerchers? Will they decide it is better for them to have input than to see the result? People are going to write about the death of their daughter whether they like it or not; I just hope that anyone with such a project has the decency to realize that this may not be the best time to approach them.

Having done my rudimentary research, if I had to hazard a guess it would be that Candace did not have a prior connection to the Knox/Mellas people, but maybe someone in her entourage did. THAT IS JUST A GUESS. I HAVE NO INSIDE DOPE. I have just put various data side by side and made an assumption that could well be wrong. It's a hunch. And Seattle is a small town in many ways. I'm just doing what people do.

But I'm not sure it makes any difference. I don't think Candace's views have hindered her relationship with these people. I think she gravitated towards them and they towards her because of certain affinities in terms of what they believe. And that includes Madison Paxton.

Candace has also cultivated the Preston/Spezi connection to this case. That much is obvious. I don't know where Frank fits in, however. He was, according to Candace, living in Florence when Meredith was killed. Did he know or know of Spezi? He has said that his journalistic background is in theater, sports and crime. When the Monster of Florence stuff was first introduced as part of the campaign against Mignini, Frank seemed unaware of it.

Then there are other peripheral players. Kelly 13, for example. He called Candace "Cuz" once and that got deleted. He strikes me as an extremely immature person. He talks about a wife and kids, and once provided a link to the website for his form of humanitarion meddling - oops, I meant aid. But that link has long since disappeared. Like everyone else, I was initially struck by his horribly callous attitude toward the Kerchers. But his tone also caught my attention and that of my husband, who at first thought that the "13" in the handle referred to Kelly's age. He also noted that Kelly often sounds more like a teenage girl than a teenage guy. But if he is who I think he may be, I hope acts older than he sounds. Whatevah, Cuz!

Sorry for this long post! All of the speculations come from information in the public domain.


Last edited by Skeptical Bystander on Sun Dec 07, 2008 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 8:31 pm   Post subject: Self-absorption   

From Fiorenza Sarzanini's book, Damian has translated a passage about what Filomena told the police about Meredith and AK (emphasis mine):

Quote:
At the start they were often together; they were of a similar age, both spoke English and were here for a short period of time. Meredith had been here for some days when Amanda arrived and so had already met some people and so she invited her to go round town together to meet her friends. Then, halfway through October, it seemed to me that something had changed. Meredith had distanced herself from Amanda. I mentioned this to Laura and told her that I thought Amanda was annoying Meredith, that Meredith had had enough of her. Not because she was a bad person but because she was a bit too extroverted. We thought it might be because of her age but I don't know if there was something else....I saw Raffaele for the first time at our house on October 26. I remember because a dear friend of mine graduated that day and I'd gone back home to get changed. I asked Laura who he was and she told me he was Amanda's friend. Laura was perhaps a bit more indulgent towards Amanda whereas she sometimes troubled me, in the sense that I didn't like her way of doing things which was a bit too expansive. Laura used to say 'C'mon, she's only twenty, give her a break.


If Filomena's perception is accurate, then it is possible that something happened to estrange the two young women, or that a series of small things happened until the tipping point was reached for Meredith.
In either case, I think it is possible that between Meredith's English reserve and tendency toward understatement and Amanda's personality quirks -- she seems to have been fairly oblivious to the impact of her words and actions on other people, which Filomena tactfully describes as her overly expansive way of doing things and her extroverted nature -- there could have been a huge gulf created that Amanda did not even acknowledge. She may have (must have?) been aware of it on some level, though.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 8:40 pm   Post subject: Family Co-Moderators   

Candace Dempsey wrote:
Posted by Candace Dempsey at 12/7/08 12:16 p.m. #226055

Cherchez, I was asked to delete one of your comments as libelous and I have. The defendants are facing 30 years. Breathe, take a step back, stick to the facts in the case...

...If you don't know what's legal in Italy, then why not investigate yourself before commenting? I can tell you that hitting a suspect is not. Give the Italians a little credit.



THE COOK'S SMOG


Oh dear. It looks like the Knox/Mellas family are now co-moderating Candace's blog, getting on the blower to her whenever they want a post they don't like deleted...those that somehow manage to scrape by Candace's already frantic deleting thumb. That's at least the second post that's been deleted over the last two or three days at the 'request' of those Candace will not name. Any poor poster seeking any kind of open debate is truly up against it. Cherchez (I've been following the comments) said nothing libelous, but as we know, any excuse will do for a delete by a blog mistress that thinks nothing of libeling 'one' of the suspects and the ILE (under her version of libel) and libeling the T.J.M.K site (in actuality). If that's not enough, her implying in the very same post that the ILE hit Amanda, when even her own defence lawyers deny it happened is BLATANT libel. The double standards in operation there are truly breathtaking

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 9:35 pm   Post subject: Bleached Cutlery   

In regard to the evidence against Sollecito, this from Damian's

Quote:
-The large quantities of bleach which were also found on the cutlery as if someone had wanted to clean thouroughly.

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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 10:21 pm   Post subject:    

Nicki,
Have you seen the Porta a Porta show, what are your thoughts on the translation the interpreter did of AK’s Mignini interrogation?

It seems at the moment the mode is to attack the interpreter.
According to Frank she is ‘not a professional interpreter’.
Oceania says ‘the interpreter didn’t know the word for bathmat’. Once again that is another lie from her!

On the Porta Porta you can hear the interpreter asking Mignini how you called bathmat? and no sooner she asks she answers herself a fraction sooner or even at the same time as Mignini ‘tappetino’

From what was shown in the programme I don’t think you can say that she did a poor translation or that she was answering directly without input from AK there is no way you can tell. But these people are so efficient themselves :lol: :lol: that they can!
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 10:56 pm   Post subject:    

Anybody read AK’s diary that Michael put up here yesterday?

On page 4, the paragraph where Ak has the Bernadette of Lourdes moment with the nun… She writes: And this is what happened since I’ve been here. Just a speggheth????

Anybody knows what does this last word speg@&%$ means?
:lol:
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:57 pm   Post subject:    

Jools wrote:
Nicki,
Have you seen the Porta a Porta show, what are your thoughts on the translation the interpreter did of AK’s Mignini interrogation?

It seems at the moment the mode is to attack the interpreter.
According to Frank she is ‘not a professional interpreter’.
Oceania says ‘the interpreter didn’t know the word for bathmat’. Once again that is another lie from her!

On the Porta Porta you can hear the interpreter asking Mignini how you called bathmat? and no sooner she asks she answers herself a fraction sooner or even at the same time as Mignini ‘tappetino’

From what was shown in the programme I don’t think you can say that she did a poor translation or that she was answering directly without input from AK there is no way you can tell. But these people are so efficient themselves :lol: :lol: that they can!

Hi Jools,

I have listened again to part of Porta a Porta. Interesting what Simonetta Matone, a judge and former prosecutor said about witnesses showing up as late as one year after the crime. She said that it's not unusal at all, because they don't want to be involved in the long time- consuming process and miss many work days for which they only get a small monetary compensation. She also blamed it on the generally scarce civic attitude of Italians, who mostly tend to mind their own business.

But back to your original question: I don't see how people can claim that the interpreter was answering directly without input from Knox, since in the second part of the interview only the interpreter voice is audible, Knox's having been cut. But in the first part of the interview where Knox's voice is audible, the translation is very accurate. The interpreter only hesitates for about a nanosecond when having to translate the word bathmat, but immediately she gets the word. It often happens to bilingual people, or even to people when speaking their mothertongue. To claim that this translator was incompetent only indicates to me the situation for the defense must look very bleak-seeing how desperate they are getting.
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:30 am   Post subject: Search Engines   

Michael wrote:

I've changed 'Forum' search to the more recognisable 'P.M.F' (Perugia Murder File) and added a brand new community search catagory 'It-Media' (for 'Italian Media'). When selecting 'It-Media', your term will be searched on the following Italian news sites:

agi.it
adnkronos.com
lanazione.ilsole24ore.com
repubblica.it
lastampa.it
corriere.it
ansa.it
panorama.it
asca.it

Shout to Brian: Will that be of help to you Brian?

If someone would very kindly test out our search engine for us and let us know it all works fine for you, it would be much appreciated :)



Michael,

Thanks for your efforts. I think the ability to use Google to search the blogs etc. is great and much needed. I haven't tested it to the full yet.

The problem I found with Google during my search for "keys" stories was that although Google would turn up the stories I couldn't get it to work well with dates and thus found myself trawling through page after page. I had resorted to manual method of deciding a search term (involving a dictionary) in Italian and using another search engine to get stories in some kind of date order, then pasting the story links, around the date I was interested in, into Googles language tools to obtain a translation. With four tabs open, I got quite fast.

BUT:

Just look what I've found today. I've been trying it out and it's the best news media search engine ever. BAR NONE.


Maybe I'll go back and have another look for stories on "chiave". Keys :)
Incidentally that's not easy, as in English, chiave in Italian also means "key" as in very important. I found untold stories of key evidence. :(






Believe it or not this is an EU thing.


This is the front page of EMM News Explorer


Choose your language(a choice of about 20 including arabic - but I suppose here it will most likely English or Italian :) ) and click on text search:

Gives you this page:

EMM Text search page

Choose your search terms and from/to dates and away you go.

It searches what must be 50 Italian news sources and if you search in English you get all of the UK and much of the US press. (ISTM country and language mean very much the same thing in terms of the search)

If you know your source you can just search that publication - It's an option.

And read the FAQs on clustering etc. It will throw up connected stories and you can get stories which were printed in the days preceeding and after the story you have chosen.

It's absolute magic.

It pays to read up on it and then try some of the options.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:21 am   Post subject: Search Engines   

Brian -

Hi Brian...

I've upgraded the 'It-Media' search option in the Perugia Murder File search engine further and added the following sites:

ilriformista.it
italy-news.net
italia-news.it
wikio.it
quotidianonet.ilsole24ore.com
tg24.sky.it
news.centrodiascolto.it
blog.panorama.it
raiuno.rai.it

I hear what you say about the limitations of Google and not being able to refine the search beyond a certain level. The site you recommended looks very good. I'm unable to add that to the Perugia Murder File Search Engine. But, what I can do, is include it in something else that I'm currently working on and will be announcing soon :)

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:50 am   Post subject: Confession   

A crucial post here by Yummi explaining how Amanda's confession cannot be used against her as 'evidence', but can and is still being used against her as a 'clue':


Yumi wrote:
Posted by Yummi at 12/7/08 4:47 p.m. #226124

Well, in the disposal, basically the accusation against AK is "to have accused a person that she knaw he was innocent, in order to hide the identity of the real murderer that she *knew* he was Rudy Guede".
The 21 lines in some way are usede agains her, not directly by their content but indirectly, as a main clue, because of the fact they are still usable against another person. So they are interpretated as a manover to hinder investigation, as a "criminal plan". Thrown out from the main door as a confession, Amanda's accusations are coming back in through the window because of their aggressive content against an innocent "I fear Patrick very much", so as a possible clue of the existence of a criminal plan.

I agree that they can be a clue, but as an evidence, the statements are still quite disputable, they may have other explanations outside a criminal plan.

Anyway, they are among the reasons of suspect against Amanda, and they are adding to the set of clues.



THE COOK'S SMOG

You know, I think Yumi should start his/her own blog...it would be excellent!

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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:17 am   Post subject: Re: Confession   

Michael wrote:
A crucial post here by Yummi explaining how Amanda's confession cannot be used against her as 'evidence', but can and is still being used against her as a 'clue':


Yumi wrote:
Posted by Yummi at 12/7/08 4:47 p.m. #226124

Well, in the disposal, basically the accusation against AK is "to have accused a person that she knaw he was innocent, in order to hide the identity of the real murderer that she *knew* he was Rudy Guede".
The 21 lines in some way are usede agains her, not directly by their content but indirectly, as a main clue, because of the fact they are still usable against another person. So they are interpretated as a manover to hinder investigation, as a "criminal plan". Thrown out from the main door as a confession, Amanda's accusations are coming back in through the window because of their aggressive content against an innocent "I fear Patrick very much", so as a possible clue of the existence of a criminal plan.

I agree that they can be a clue, but as an evidence, the statements are still quite disputable, they may have other explanations outside a criminal plan.

Anyway, they are among the reasons of suspect against Amanda, and they are adding to the set of clues.



THE COOK'S SMOG

You know, I think Yumi should start his/her own blog...it would be excellent!



Amanda's statement was "in" the moment the prosecutors decided to charge Amanda with slander against Patrick. I thought then, and still do think it was it was a "tactical decision" made after the judges disallowed the statement as evidence in the murder case.

When Frank criticized the prosecutors for laying the slander charge - as in poor Amanda, isn't she in enough trouble without this - I said that I thought it was the most obvious way to get Amanda's statement back into court. Maybe it couldn't be used against her directly on the murder charge but everyone would get to hear what she said to cause the slander and you can't take that knowledge away from the judges minds once they've heard it.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:59 am   Post subject: Re: Confession   

Brian wrote:
Amanda's statement was "in" the moment the prosecutors decided to charge Amanda with slander against Patrick. I thought then, and still do think it was it was a "tactical decision" made after the judges disallowed the statement as evidence in the murder case.

When Frank criticized the prosecutors for laying the slander charge - as in poor Amanda, isn't she in enough trouble without this - I said that I thought it was the most obvious way to get Amanda's statement back into court. Maybe it couldn't be used against her directly on the murder charge but everyone would get to hear what she said to cause the slander and you can't take that knowledge away from the judges minds once they've heard it.


I fully agree. It wasn't only the accusation of Patrick, but the degree of detail in the confession. It wasn't simply something to shut the police up, although that was part of it, but to actually put them off track, At least, in my view that's what it was.

Mignini is experienced in his job. He knew fully well that when he interviewed Amanda as a suspect without a lawyer it would be thrown out. It might get past one judge (as it did with Matteini), but not not all the others in the steps. I feel he was willing to sacrifice it for the sake of being able to arrest and hold the other accomplice as soon as possible. He lost that gamble because the other 'accomplice' turned out to be innocent. But then, he didn't, because he also knew he could get it in via the 'slander' law, as you said, as well as demonstrate that the statement was in actual fact, evidence of Knox's criminality. He is a shrewd fellow.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 6:16 am   Post subject: Sex Toy   

Regarding Amanda's sex toy supposedly being a joke key ring (or something like that)...if that was the case, then why was it kept in her 'vanity' case/bag? I mean...I keep all my joke stuff in my 'vanity' bag...ya know, the cap with the two cans of beer attached and built in straws, that sort of stuff....right next to my toothpaste and shampoo.

It's not that I really care about the sex toy buisness...I don't think it important as far as whether she killed Meredith or not. It's more this obsessive need by the Knox Camp to rabidly attack any piece of evidence, the existence of anything at all that may suggest the slightest flaw in her character or conduct on 'any' level, at 'any' time. It's this insistance of Amanda's absolute 'perfection' that just comes over as overly defensive and really strips them of all credibility. Nobody is perfect, nobody. But this girl, she can do no wrong.

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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:45 pm   Post subject:    

Well done for Yummi! Hope she can explain her logic reasons as to why she deletes...LOL

'Posted by Yummi at 12/8/08 5:32 a.m.

Candace wrote, about Frog:

I will also delete when you post your own interpretation of what happened to Amanda at 5:45 a.m.

That's what libel laws are all about.

but Frog didn't give any interpretation.

I remember that you gave an interpretation about Rudy "making things" (undressing the victim) after the victim's death, suggesting some actions were not a "staging" for pourpose, but "part of the crime", so they were motivated more by necrophiliac obession.

People are often giving interpretations (about witnesses reliable or not and so on). I didn't see anything libelous in posting the officially known timeline of interrogations. It's possible, it's the official content. It's not libelous to assume as a possibility that the police were not criminals.
I dont' always follow your reasons to delete Frog.'
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:10 pm   Post subject: Llibel   

Ferdi wrote:
Posted by Ferdi at 12/8/08 6:56 a.m. #226309

Posted by Yummi at 12/8/08 6:38 a.m.

" "The Italian police says so" is however a fact. "

That doesn't mean that you are generally allowed to publish what the Italian police says, when it is libellous.



THE COOK'S SMOG

Of course you're allowed to publish what the police say in a murder case. I've never heard such nonsense in my life! Just when are Candace and her followers going to stop hiding behind trumped up charges of libel every time they are faced with a post they don't happen to like?

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:13 pm   Post subject: What has size got to do with it?   

Michael wrote:

Quote:
Regarding Amanda's sex toy supposedly being a joke key ring (or something like that)...if that was the case, then why was it kept in her 'vanity' case/bag? I mean...I keep all my joke stuff in my 'vanity' bag...ya know, the cap with the two cans of beer attached and built in straws, that sort of stuff....right next to my toothpaste and shampoo.


Making light of it and turning it into a joke is easier than acknowledging that public displays of your intimate life might be offensive to the people with whom you share private or public space. It seems to me that Knox could be described as aggressively uninhibited, with a constant need to demonstrate to others that she is sexually knowing.

Young American women have a superficial grasp of sexuality at an early age, and our culture actively encourages them to exhibit it. Amanda seems not to have realized that Europeans, particularly in the Latin cultures, are more reticent about their personal sexuality. This doesn't mean young people are not sexually active or that they are uncomfortable with sex; it is just that the culture encourages them to view sex as a very private matter.

What is unfortunate here is the juxtaposition of testimony about how this made Meredith feel with Knox's statement turning the vibrator into a gag gift. But the point is not whether she owns a vibrator, or how it came into her possession. It is that she (allegedly) kept it in a transparent beauty bag in the bathroom she shared with Meredith and that this apparently bothered Meredith.

So this isn't about the size of the vibrator, as Knox's response suggests. A vibrator is an object that takes up psychological as well as physical space, and when displayed in a shared physical space it speaks to one's sexuality. What difference does the size of the vibrator make? After all, and I don't mean to be crude, a small vibrator can be used to stimulate the clitoris only, which is not particularly large in most women.

Meredith might have shared this discomfort with her friends and family, who probably would have understood it.

Knox, on the other hand, was probably either totally unaware of the offense she was causing or feigned unawareness to perfection. In either case, she comes off as a fairly insensitive and thoughtless person. Her friends and family will protest, telling us she is all about love and peace. Maybe she is; I don't doubt it, but I don't think being about love and peace necessarily translates into being a thoughtful flatmate. A thoughtful flatmate might be able to understand that a vibrator is something better kept in a private place, for private pleasure.

This doesn't make Amanda Knox a murderer, and if she wasn't going on trial for murder, she would be just one more averagely selfish young person from the world's most affluent and sexually messed up culture.

Her family and friends would be more persuasive if they did not counter this kind of anecdotal testimony with non sequiters about love, peace, rock climbing and chocolate festivals. In the meantime, Meredith cannot speak for herself and her family and friends remain silent.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:32 pm   Post subject: Re: Sex Toy   

Skep wrote:
So this isn't about the size of the vibrator, as Knox's response suggests. A vibrator is an object that takes up psychological as well as physical space, and when displayed in a shared physical space it speaks to one's sexuality. What difference does the size of the vibrator make? After all, and I don't mean to be crude, a small vibrator can be used to stimulate the clitoris only, which is not particularly large in most women.


This had also occured to me but, lol, I wasn't going to go there, so I'm glad it was one of you girls that did. Not that I'm any expert, but sex toys seem to come in all shapes and sizes.

But, yes certainly, it's true that whilst not evidence of criminality, it certainly serves as an element in the deteriation of the relationship between Amanda and Meredith. I can imagine it being a problem for Meredith, being a shy sort, not so much just seeing it in the bathroom herself, but also thinking any boys that might have come around and used that bathroom may see it and mistake it for being hers. A lot of girls would find that rather embarrasing.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 6:14 pm   Post subject: Good vibrations   

Jools wrote:

Quote:
Well done for Yummi! Hope she can explain her logic reasons as to why she deletes...LOL


And when she does, we'll all understand why a post like this one is left standing :) :

Quote:
Posted by tufa at 12/7/08 11:38 p.m.
So actually the drug dealers were maybe Mez and her boyfriend? I am just saying what goes around, comes around. If people want to make an accusation, then faces the implications. Only this and nothing more.
Report violation


UPDATE - That one has now been deleted because it involved a food fight between Tufa and "Cherchy." Not because it is considered to be libelous speculation or anything. I think I'll leave it up here because it is indicative of the general level of consideration for Meredith shown by this poster.
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:07 pm   Post subject:    

Skep,

I saw that stupid disgusting comment by 'Tufa' I suppose she has to honor her nick. She loves shooting those bullets.

Tufa in Mafia colloquial language means revolver.
(This is not a joke)
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:33 pm   Post subject:    

I'm disgusted that the horrible comment by Tufa was allowed to stand. Candace only shows eagle-eyed vigilance when it comes to comments about Amanda Knox. She continues to delete frog-y-rana like there is no tomorrow. I think there are two reasons for this: she doesn't want anyone putting forward a compelling argument in favour of Amanda's guilt on her blog, and frog-y-rana does this very well, and she's completely out of her depth when discussing the case with someone as intelligent as frog-y-rana.

Candace Dempsey is like some foaming-at-the-mouth zealot. She's so obsessed with defending Amanda Knox it is no longer possible to have a reasoned discussion with her about the case.

She's poured scorn on Hekuran Kokomni anf Toto for being unreliable witnesses and yet she hasn't made a murmur about Amanda's and Raffaele's mulitple alibis, repeated lies and completely different accounts of what they were doing, who they were with and where they were on the night of the murder.

She claimed that Raffaele's alibis contained small inconsistencies. I don't know how anyone could say that Raffaele claiming:

He was at a party with Amanda.
He was at his apartment with Amanda.
He was alone at his apartment.

are small inconsistencies. They are three strikingly different alibis.

Candace has predictably ridiculed the new witnesses for the prosecution, but is quite happy to accept the witness who apparently can prove that Raffaele wasn't with Meredith, Amanda and Rudy on 30 October.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 8:32 pm   Post subject: Doing the splits, looking like a fool   

Jools wrote:

Quote:
I saw that stupid disgusting comment by 'Tufa' I suppose she has to honor her nick. She loves shooting those bullets.
Tufa in Mafia colloquial language means revolver.
(This is not a joke.)


The fact that Tufa's mostly idiotic, often shoot-from-the-hip and always sophomoric comments are allowed to stand makes me think she may be one of the handful of local FAF. She certainly loathes Frog-y and immediately pounced on Cherchez, with an unerring sense of who the enemy is and all the finesse of a 500-pound hippo.

TM wrote:

Quote:
Candace has predictably ridiculed the new witnesses for the prosecution, but is quite happy to accept the witness who apparently can prove that Raffaele wasn't with Meredith, Amanda and Rudy on 30 October.


In this respect - i.e. applying a double standard - Candace has been remarkably consistent. It would be easier for her if she didn't try and give the appearance of neutrality. For example, she has gone on at great lengths (and even on television) about how so many of the journalists covering this case are middle-aged perverts obsessed with Knox's sex life. And yet, when Frank manages to penetrate the prison walls with his questions, one of which is about Amanda's vibrator, he got nothing but praise for finally presenting Amanda in her own words. Which is also a complete joke, as it turns out. Amanda Knox, as told to a paid-off prison guard or some other Capanne insider, who then recited her words to Frank, who then wrote them down verbatim, and then presented them as the words of Knox.
I liked the hasty addition of the vibrator question, too. What did Prison Guard do? Rush back and ask one last, vital question?
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Offline indie


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 8:43 pm   Post subject: Re: Dateline   

Michael wrote:
Indie, Guermantes -

Thank you for your summations of the Dateline prog :) The video clips can now be viewed directly on our board DATELINE VIDEO CLIPS - DEC 5, 08


You are very welcome Michael.

Throughout the whole program, I just had a sense they held back on some of the other key inconsistencies/evidence and now reading some of Clint's comments, I can see they did some major editing. It is okay. The facts will be revealed during the trial where it REALLY counts, so I can understand not making such a program too one-sided.

But truth be told, I was disappointed that they repeated 99% of what we already know and could regurgitate off the top of our heads. I wish they would have provided a little more insight into the areas we are lacking some details, like the early morning cleaning product purchases, what clothes were in the washer and exactly how that knife was found in Raffaele's apt. Guess we will just have to wait like everybody else. Just darn.
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 8:52 pm   Post subject:    

Oh dear, the Slow Cook just outed the Janet H. The commenter I was wondering the other day if she was a relative. The bit about African American hair strand is there, the Cook did not delete this.

(Posted by Candace Dempsey at 12/8/08 10:57 a.m.

Here's a comment I've been meaning to post. It's from the UW Daily comments section and is from Amanda's aunt, Janet Huff. She's countering the previous poster whose source of information is the Daily Mail, one of the world's most notorious tabloids.)
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 9:23 pm   Post subject: Afro-hairy rag   

Jools wrote:

Quote:
Oh dear, the Slow Cook just outed the Janet H. The commenter I was wondering the other day if she was a relative. The bit about African American hair strand is there, the Cook did not delete this.



Maybe she's hoping that the science expert Funnycat will turn up to explain how microscopic analysis of a hair strand can distinguish African-American hair from African-African, African-European, or African-Caribbean hair. :)
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 11:59 pm   Post subject: Candace grabs her tufa and shoots   

TM wrote:

Quote:
She continues to delete frog-y-rana like there is no tomorrow. I think there are two reasons for this: she doesn't want anyone putting forward a compelling argument in favour of Amanda's guilt on her blog, and frog-y-rana does this very well, and she's completely out of her depth when discussing the case with someone as intelligent as frog-y-rana.


Actually, it is quite instructive and somewhat amusing to see what is going on right this minute over there. Frog-y posted five different hypotheses awhile ago that could fit with some of the evidence and statements made by the suspects. There was nothing remotely libelous about his post, which was, I believe, in response to something Charlie had written. There is absolutely no way any person with a thrid-grade level in reading would have mistaken Frog-y's hypotheses as purported facts and therefore libelous. But Candace deleted his post.

Frog-y compared the deleted post to one of Ferdi's, wherein Ferdi hypothesized that Giacomo could be the killer and that his parents could have given him a false alibi. There is nothing libelous in that statement either, since Ferdi never stated that he believed this to be the case or had evidence of it. Candace did not delete or even comment on Ferdi's hypothesis. Frog-y's question is simply why that statement was not deleted as libelous?

Since it is patently obvious that the hypotheses put forth by Kermit were merely hypotheses, and no different from the one made by Ferdi, Candace now has nowhere to go (which is a good thing, because she's apparently still in her bathrobe) except ballistic.

Why does this matter? Because Candace purports to be neutral and objective, to be beholden to no interests other than the truth. It is simply impossible to lay claim to this position when practicing this ad hoc deletion policy and she must know it.
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Offline DLW


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 2:00 am   Post subject:    

One of my favorite parts of the Dateline show was when they interviewed Amanda’s parents. Curt Knox and Edda Mellas sort of remind me of Ozzie and Harriet, from the early TV sitcom featuring the Nelson family. The all American family. Let’s forget that they are divorced, their daughter is a murder suspect, or if they get tongue tied sometimes. Like when they say that the DNA on the knife matches half of Italy, or in another interview they don’t know for sure which family is suffering more (must have meant their family or the Sollecito’s). They almost seem like they are up for the PTA approved parents of the year award. You don’t see Curt opening a beer can and calling other members of the family shithead or retards. But the interview could have used a little something extra. They could have shown those old photo’s of Amanda playing soccer, or a film clip of those touching moments when Amanda bonded with her step dad while trying to put up a tent on a camping trip. Plus the added time they took up, would have given Clint less time to explain the double DNA knife.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 2:23 am   Post subject: No sangfroid for Candace   

DLW wrote:

Quote:
One of my favorite parts of the Dateline show was when they interviewed Amanda’s parents. Curt Knox and Edda Mellas sort of remind me of Ozzie and Harriet, from the early TV sitcom featuring the Nelson family. The all American family. Let’s forget that they are divorced, their daughter is a murder suspect, or if they get tongue tied sometimes.
:lol:

It is interesting that the PR firm decided from the get-go to present them as a pair and that is how they have been presented ever since. It is hard to remember that both are married to other people and that one of them likes to call random strangers on the internet retards and threaten to rub their faces in shit.

Meanwhile, Candace is still in her bathrobe, has just had it with Frog-y and his scenarios. She shouts:
Quote:
Probably your scenarios are just too extreme for my blog, because they depart so far from the facts and stray into libel. We already have the fantastical sex game theory before us--and that is what the real suspects in the real world have to deal with. That is hard enough. Then I see that a single drop of blood on a sink becomes a hemorrhage, a bidet turns into a sink, a man sees something that can't be seen. Then I lose patience.


Here is Amanda, though, in her own words (as translated by Damian, from the recent book):

“…I got undressed and went into the bathroom, I had a shower…and I used the bathmat, on which there was blood, because I’d left the towels in the bedroom. I saw the blood on the bathmat and I dragged it into the bedroom to get the towels, then, I took it back to the bathroom and put my earrings in.. I saw the blood on the bathmat and in the washbasin but I didn’t think something terrible had happened.”
And also:
“…Then I closed the door and went to the bathroom, the one near my bedroom which me and Meredith use to have a shower. I noticed there were drops of blood on the floor, a bigger bloodstain on the bathmat and another one in the washbasin, as if someone had touched it with a bloody hand. It seemed strange to me because we are all clean and we clean the bathroom after using it. Right there, I thought the blood in the wash basin could have been mine because I had had my ears pierced about a week ago. In fact, I checked in the mirror, touching my ear. I then touched the blood in the basin but I saw that it wasn’t recent. I went into the other bathroom where I normally wash my hair and I noticed there were faeces in the toilet, that is, someone had used it without flushing.”

Clearly, there was more than a single drop of blood in the washbasin, if Amanda is to be believed. I couldn't say for sure, what with all the deleting going on, but I don't believe Frog-y or anyone else has ever claimed that the blood in the sink looked as if it had come from someone hemorrhaging.


Candace also says: "There is no trace of her in the room where the murder took place. A huge problem for the prosecution. How then could she be the stabber?"

There is also no trace of her in the room that she lived in, which is also quite problematic -- or at least mysterious.

I am very intrigued about the claim that AK's DNA was found on Meredith's bra. Clint Van Zandt did not pull this out of his hat, as some people seem to think. Indeed, it was reported by Raffaele's own lawyers during the preliminary hearing.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:04 am   Post subject: Laid back   

Candace Dempsey wrote:
Posted by Candace Dempsey at 12/8/08 5:12 p.m. #226651

Yummi, I am confused by this statement.
"Correct. But it can be used against others.
In the case the other is an innocent person, as in this case, the false statement in a testimony is a criminal behavior and, also, it is possible to consider it as a clue, a suspicious behavior."



THE COOK'S SMOG



Here's what I don't get: Many people named innocent people in this case. As is only natural. The police asked them to give them names of people they found suspicious. Platonic friends of Amanda's were often named, but they turned out to be completely innocent.

But the people who named them are not in trouble for false statements, no? As is only natural, because how can you help the police find a killer if you don't respond when they ask you about suspicious behavior? So I don't see how Amanda as a witness could be in trouble for bringing up Patrick, if she did at 1:30 a.m.


Maybe other people were named, maybe they weren't (I've seen no evidence that they were), but even if they were, nobody else 'described' an innocent person entering the cottage, going into Meredith's room, raping and then murderimg her! In her statement, Amanda claimed to have 'witnessed' Patrick doing that and added quite a lot of embelishment to her story and then signed it. This wasn't simply the suggesting of names of people that 'might' have done it. Please, do name one single 'other' person that claimed to have actually witnessed an innocent person murdering Meredith. Truly, I can hardly believe you wrote that.


Candace Dempsey wrote:
Posted by Candace Dempsey at 12/8/08 5:17 p.m. #226657

Funnycat,
I am reposting your comment after removing several sentences that could be misinterpreted...




Whilst it's lovely to see the 'cherished' Funnycat being dleleted/edited for a very nice change...my God woman, why do you have this overwhelming need to micro manage everybody's posts? It's like trying to have a debate under the eye of the Stazi. Why don't you just ban everyone from posting comments altogether and just have a conversation with yourself in the comments thread? At least then it will guarantee only things you approve of are ever said. Laid back...who are you kidding? I've never seen anything like it on a blog...anywhere!!!

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:16 am   Post subject: Re: Dateline   

Indie wrote:
I wish they would have provided a little more insight into the areas we are lacking some details, like the early morning cleaning product purchases, what clothes were in the washer and exactly how that knife was found in Raffaele's apt. Guess we will just have to wait like everybody else. Just darn.



Hi Indie :) Well, of course it would be lovely to see some of these points addressed by the media. I think though, the time factor is a problem. So much has happened in this case and they have to treat the viewers as though it's their first introduction to it. It's impossible to squeeze it all into one hour (with commercial breaks). The Sex, Lies and Murder of Meredith Kercher doc was also an hour. My mother watched it and it was her introduction to the case. Afterward she said she was left feeling remarkably uninformed and as we noted at the time, much was left out. Rudy, he was just mentioned in the last minute of the prog, almost as though they'd run out of time. And that was the problem, an hour wasn't nearly enough to adequately cover such a complex case and that was months ago. So much more has happened since. I think, if this case is ever to be covered properly, it has to be at least a two part doc with an hour apiece.

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Offline DLW


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:24 am   Post subject:    

Meanwhile, Candace is still in her bathrobe….‘….SB

I think that this is code for ‘pajama bloggers‘. I’m not sure when the word was first coined, but it is not that uncommon and is slang for home bloggers reporting on the news. From a recent article:

‘The gist is that pajama bloggers and traditional media are converging. As hobby blogs become more professional, traditional media are learning how to use the Internet to overcome the obsolescence of their delivery mechanism.’
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:55 am   Post subject: lights out, nobody home   

DLW quoted SB:
Meanwhile, Candace is still in her bathrobe….‘….SB
And added:
Quote:
I think that this is code for ‘pajama bloggers‘. I’m not sure when the word was first coined, but it is not that uncommon and is slang for home bloggers reporting on the news. From a recent article:

‘The gist is that pajama bloggers and traditional media are converging. As hobby blogs become more professional, traditional media are learning how to use the Internet to overcome the obsolescence of their delivery mechanism.’


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Let's just hope that Steve Huff is more indicative of the integrity and seriousness of the pyjama bloggers (shout-out to Steve: y'all got your jammies on?) than the Italian Woman! Obsolescence of delivery mechanism aside (and it is a real problem), just because someone blogs in their jammies doesn't mean they have anything to say!
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:04 am   Post subject: Puppet master   

Candace Dempsey wrote:
Posted by Candace Dempsey at 12/8/08 5:17 p.m. #226657

Funnycat,
I am reposting your comment after removing several sentences that could be misinterpreted...

I think that, just as "pyjama bloggers" is a code term, "could be misinterpreted" is either the friendly version of deleting a "libelous post" or code for "stay with the script, please."
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:40 pm   Post subject:    

DLW wrote:
Meanwhile, Candace is still in her bathrobe….‘….SB

I think that this is code for ‘pajama bloggers‘. I’m not sure when the word was first coined, but it is not that uncommon and is slang for home bloggers reporting on the news. From a recent article:

‘The gist is that pajama bloggers and traditional media are converging. As hobby blogs become more professional, traditional media are learning how to use the Internet to overcome the obsolescence of their delivery mechanism.’



Hey ho!

It's a term of denigration which has been picked up by the traditional media as they watch their "POWER and INFLUENCE" diminish.

"Pyjama army" destroying internet?
Jun 6, 2007 2:33 PM

Internet culture, often portrayed as the vanguard of progress, is actually a jungle peopled by intellectual yahoos and digital thieves, according to a Silicon Valley entrepreneur-turned-dissenter.

Andrew Keen, a 47-year-old Briton who founded dot-com era music startup Audiocafe, argues that basic notions of expertise are under assault amid a cultural shift in favour of the amateurism of blogs MySpace and other popularity-driven sites.

"Millions and millions of exuberant monkeys ... are creating an endless digital forest of mediocrity," Keen writes in a new book.

His views have infuriated bloggers and others, especially in Silicon Valley, who argue he is an elitist intellectual, a conservative pining for a return to old ways, and a writer who cannot keep his facts straight.

The villains in Keen's narrative are a "pyjama army" of mostly anonymous writers who spread gossip and scandal, "intellectual kleptomaniacs," who search Google to copy others' work and the "digital thieves" of media content in the post-Napster era.....


TVNZ

I could write a book on this and I'm not a blogger.

It's true there are countless millions of bloggers out there who must fall under the heading of "pyjama blogger" but then they don't attract the readership to have any influence.

The blogs which upset the media and "powers that be" come in many forms but the one thing they have in common is their "expertise" on the subject they relate to.

The most powerfull blogs and boards which have the media running scared relate to the "media's failing ability to manipulate public opinion". These blogs and boards have a VAST resource of knowledge relying on thousands of experts on their chosen subject. Nor are they short of member lawyers. Most know well how to protect themselves against attack by the establishment. These blogs attack the media in their presentation of politics, power and money.

A good example would be the pre-2006 Yahoo Stock Board. It may not be obvious but the financial pages of most influential newspapers are "manipulated" by the money brokers and their commercial partners. When you read an opinion in the press about some "rising stock", that opinion can be traced back to the funding financial institutions, commercial partners and large stock holders. The opinion in the media is an attempt to move minor stockolders in the direction which the large players want them to take. It can come weeks after the play was put into action and has no care for well being of the smaller investor.

The knowledge on the Yahoo stock board, of the indentification of company board members, some common to the financial institutions backing them, large stockholders, and the relationship between them, relationship between the writers in the media, their ultimate employers and the media itself, was largely exposing this manipulation to anyone who cared to read the stock board. In 2006 Yahoo changed their available search options of the stock board web pages in an attempt to prevent this relevent information being tracked by the casual reader. It was still there but not presented in a convenient or easy to follow way.

As GWR found out during the invasion of Iraq, the most knowledgable sites about the goings on there were the alt.mil sites on usenet before the government closed them down. They had to keep the "official version" flying in the media. There are some superb examples of the press getting it totally wrong in that situation.

eg. In the days just before the invasion, Iraqi's were reported on the front pages in the press to be sinking boats in Basra harbour loaded with explosives to sink any invading ships.

"Old soldiers" who'd gone to sightsee, (apparently this is quite common with people who've been directly involved in a war - many of them describe war as ultimately futile but they go to watch the tactics play out) watching with binoculars from the Saudi side said on alt.mil they'd seen it all before all over the world. The locals were sinking their boats in an attempt to save them. If you are worried your boat is about to get blown out of the water, the simplest way to attempt to save it is to pull out the plug in shallow water in the hope that you can refloat and repair it after the fighting has stopped. This subsequently turned out to be quite true and no sunken boats were found in Basra harbour loaded with explosives.

Who were the informed experts? Certainly NOT the press, just anonymous old soldiers posting on alt.mil.


Whic brings me back to the subject at hand. Excluding CVZ, Steve Huff, a few crime writers in Italy and maybe one or two others, there is more knowledge on this site about a crime in Perugia than amongst all the generalist US/UK reporters put together. Nick Pisa isn't in Pergugia, he's in "Italy" and has a lot of other news to cover. His employers have probably just got him to pop over to Greece and report on the civil violence there.


Last edited by Brian S. on Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:52 pm   Post subject: The Dempsey Defence   

Candace DEmpsey wrote:
Posted by Candace Dempsey at 12/9/08 12:57 a.m. #226855

Here's my response to the Il Messaggero chart.

Against Raffaele

-He didn’t raise the alarm immediately when he discovered the robbery. What robbery? I thought that was staged. And he didn't know about the broken window until he came back to the cottage with Amanda

-His contradictory statements about what he did on the night of the murder. Well, he said he was stoned.

-The finding of the knife which is compatible with the murder weapon at his house, upon which Amanda and Meredith’s dna was found. But is that Meredith's DNA? Inconclusive. Not enough for a second sample.

-The large quantities of bleach which were also found on the cutlery as if someone had wanted to clean thoroughly. So he cleaned the knife thoroughly. So do I. It was in a drawer with other knives. Were they really washed in a completely different way? Also, it hasn't been proven that the knife is the murder weapon. Police originally said it was a flick knife. And again the problem with the Meredith DNA.

-Rudy’s statements; Sollecito was in the corridor with a knife in his hand. Yes, but first he said he didn't see the guy clearly & that he didn't even know Raffaele. He's moved Raffaele around in his alibis like a chess piece, just as he as done with Amanda. Also, his alibis have already been found unbelievable in court.

-The bloody footprints which are compatible with his. I'll let others take this one.

-The new witness who claims he saw him with Amanda, Rudy and Meredith two days before the murder, despite him saying that he had never seen Rudy.

Raffale has an alibi witness to refute this.



THE COOK'S SMOG



1) Because Raffaele and Amanda 'claimed' there had been a robbery/break-in. The whole point of a staged robbery is to make it look like a real one. I really for the life of me, cannot understand what your point is as form of defence (can anyone else work it out?). They found the house in a condition they 'claimed', they 'thought' had been caused by a 'break-in'...yet it took them hours to call the police. Whether it was real or in fact staged, it makes no difference to the lack of credibility in their statements. Moreover, you have some cheek to be using the 'staging' of a robbery as some warped type of defence since you have always denied, as if your life depended on it, that there 'was' any staging!

2) What has his being stoned got to do with it? Being stoned does NOT cause one to give three different alibis a) I was at a party b) I was at home with Amanda C) I was at home and Amanda wasn't there...this is not simply a little confusion about mere 'details' and times.

3) The knife DNA is not inconclusive. It's test found it was Meredith's. One does not get a 'coincidental' match with a real individual involved in the case unless there is contamination. Contamination as a possibility has been ruled out by both the forensic experts and Judge Micheli who described any such contamination as 'impossible'. The lack of a large enough sample for a second test does not make it inconclusive. At most, it may provide a 'legal' technicality. The test showed it to be Meredith's DNA...FACT.

4) The knife was not just 'cleaned' thoroughly...it was BLEACHED and 'that' on a knife supposedly for cooking that contains the DNA of the murder victim is damning!!!

5) The fact that Rudy in his earlier accounts did not name Raffaele but only did so later, is actually strong evidence for the truth of his revised statement, or at least, that part of it. Rudy had EVERY reason to finger Raffaele as the knife holder in his initial statement if Raffaele was in fact innocent. The police had arrested Raffaele, they had evidence against him and Matteini had found there was more then enough grounds to charge him with being a suspect and refuse him house arrest pending further investigation. At the same time, there would have been nothing an innocent Raffaele could have said to harm Rudy, since he would not have been at the cottage when Meredith was murdered and therefore would not have witnessed anything. Rudy not naming him inititially, only to do so later, therefore implies the opposite; That Raffaele WAS at the cottage when Meredith was killed and was therefore dangerous to Rudy in that he could bear witness to Rudy's role in the crime. Rudy only went on to name Raffaele because he felt forced to do so, since Raffaele's defence team had begun to actively point the finger at Rudy leaving him nothing to lose. Your point is therefore a 'logical' argument for Raffaele's GUILT, not innocence.

6) The three sets of bloody footprints, of three different sizes, in the cottage, show clearly that THREE individuals were in the house at the time of the murder and also provide proof positive that there was a clean-up/staging afterwards (since many of these prints had been cleaned and were only visible under luminol application). They certainly rule out any 'Lone-Wolf' crime. Two of these prints are compatible in size to Raffaele's and Amanda's. One of these prints (Rafaele's) is EXITING MEREDITHS ROOM.

7) What new witness? I've not heard him/her (and neither have you and neither do we know if even the ILE have yet). All I've read is that the defence 'claim' to have a witness that gives Raffaele an alibi when he was reportedly seen by a witness whose testimony 'has' been heard by the ILE and reported in the press. Moreover, IF there is a witness for raffaele, what exactly makes this witness (after a year, as your camp loves to keep saying) any more reliable then any of the other witnesses you dismiss out of hand for matters of convenience?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:00 pm   Post subject: Enlightenment   

Brian -

A most enlightening post. Thank you for taking the time to post that up :)

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:24 pm   Post subject: Anything but 14 Hours is Libel!   

Frog-y-rana wrote:
Posted by Frog-y-rana at 12/9/08 2:59 a.m. #226872

...In the meantime, Ferdi and Yummi had exchanged some posts, because Yummi questioned your deletion policy about a completely different post of mine you had deleted (where I tried to show Sept79 that the "illegal 14 hour interrogation" wasn't really such). You stated with that deletion that "I will also delete when you post your own interpretation of what happened to Amanda at 5:45 a.m. That's what libel laws are all about."



THE COOK'S SMOG


Yes, it would seem that on the Cook's Smog it is now considered by her to be 'libel' to suggest that the interrogation of Amanda lasted anything less then 14 hours. This is despite the fact, that it's actually an impossibility for the interrogation to have lasted anything CLOSE to 14 hours! I wonder if any clever soul could explain to me how claiming an interrogation lasted less then 14 hours can possibly be interpreted as 'libelous'? In all my experience as a Moderator on various forums, I just don't get this one.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:51 pm   Post subject: PJ journalism   

Brian wrote:

Quote:
Which brings me back to the subject at hand. Excluding CVZ, Steve Huff, a few crime writers in Italy and maybe one or two others, there is more knowledge on this site about a crime in Perugia than amongst all the generalist US/UK reporters put together. Nick Pisa isn't in Pergugia, he's in "Italy" and has a lot of other news to cover. His employers have probably just got him to pop over to Greece and report on the civil violence there.


Good analysis, Brian.

I assume that "GWR" is really "GWB"? :)

As for CD being a pyjama blogger, I think DLW had his tongue firmly in his cheek. In fact, both CD and Frank of PS are looking not to "out" the mainstream media but rather to be taken into its fold and accepted as bona fide members. Frank has such a huge grudge against the local GU team, I am tempted to wonder if he didn't unsuccessfully apply for a job there when he moved to Perugia from Florence to cover this case, as the story goes.
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:34 pm   Post subject:    

Skep wrote:
I assume that "GWR" is really "GWB"? :D


Excuse my fingers Skep. :lol: They don't always go were I tell them to.

And a comment to round off about my yahoo story from above.

Interfering in the on-line world has a habit of causing it to bite back.

Yahoo was the pre eminent stock board. Bar none. Probably because they were the first. They must have had hundreds of thousands of members. Maybe even millions. Prior to 2006 it had become a battleground between corporate shills and knowledgable joe public stock trader and corporate insiders who had found a place to "whistleblow". But anyone reading it could soon work out who was who relative to any given company stock.

Yahoo made another of their corporate "misjudgements" of recent years and obviously took action to frustrate ordinary punters in their attempts to out the financial manipulators. Corporate Yahoo is obviously "a friend of theirs" and was doubtless responding to requests from their buddies rather than their clients.

Yahoo had to avoid the charge of "censorship", so they didn't delete the information, but by the changes to their pages and sort methods just made it near impossible to find in amongst the noise.

Within months smaller independent stock boards had appeared and on them was "the knowledge" in readable form. Most of the expertise had left Yahoo. Yet another virtual monopoly Yahoo had thrown away. Those who "invest" know now not to rely on the information found there, they'd rather get their unfiltered information elsewhere.

ISTM Yahoo's management are really good at destroying a company, but this story does demonstrate the power of the anonymous on-line world.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:42 pm   Post subject: Wabow   

Brian wrote:

Quote:
ISTM Yahoo's management are really good at destroying a company, but this story does demonstrate the power of the anonymous on-line world.


Information is like a rogue river. You can dam it up, divert it, bury it, whatever, and it will seep out elsewhere.
The fact that Yahoo is a publicly-traded company is a good reason not to have it hosting online stock information, or at least to require a strict separation between the two businesses.
By reacting the way it did, Yahoo only really managed to divert the expertise elsewhere. WABOW (means What A Bunch Of Wankers)!
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:08 pm   Post subject: Re: The Dempsey Defence   

Michael wrote:
What new witness? I've not heard him/her...


Michael: I believe this new witness will turn out to be Chris Mellas. Remember when Chris said he had talked to Raffaele on the phone - there you have it - Rafaele was actually on the phone to Chris at the time all 3 suspects were supposedly seen together.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:30 pm   Post subject: Spinning wheel got to go round   

FBN wrote:

Quote:
Michael wrote:
What new witness? I've not heard him/her...


Michael: I believe this new witness will turn out to be Chris Mellas. Remember when Chris said he had talked to Raffaele on the phone - there you have it - Rafaele was actually on the phone to Chris at the time all 3 suspects were supposedly seen together.


I remember when Chris said he had, and then said he hadn't. I also remember how CW and others tried to square that circle. Finally, I think we can count on the Italian Woman to delete any "confusion" created by these contradictory statements on her blog. Actually, this has probably already been taken care of.

Tout s'explique.

Ceci explique celà.

From a certain angle, a vibrator looks like a sonicare electric toothbrush, but only temporarily.

An African-American negroid hair looks different from and African-African one.

Etc.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:04 pm   Post subject: Re: Spinning wheel got to go round   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
An African-American negroid hair looks different from and African-African one.


No, Skep - you are wrong and Funnycat will back me up on this. They look the same, but under microscopic examination it is the trace amounts of McRib residue that will distinguish African-American hair.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:40 pm   Post subject: McWhopper   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Quote:
An African-American negroid hair looks different from and African-African one.


FBN wrote:
Quote:
No, Skep - you are wrong and Funnycat will back me up on this. They look the same, but under microscopic examination it is the trace amounts of McRib residue that will distinguish African-American hair.


Actually, that is just the kind of McNugget of wisdom that the world expects and that only Funnycat can deliver.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:55 pm   Post subject:    

I've got a new post up at TJMK. It's about Frank's recent "interview" with Amanda Knox:

http://tinyurl.com/3rj28e

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:36 pm   Post subject: ADMINISTRATOR NOTE   

:!: Administrator Note:

I have copied over the following Main Discussion threads from the TC board:

I. MAIN DISCUSSION, 12 Apr - 9 May


[url=http://perugiamurderfile.net/ii-main-discussion-2-may-29-may-t83.html]II. MAIN DISCUSSION, 2 May - 29 May
[/url]

III. MAIN DISCUSSION, 29 May - 15 Jul

They can be found in the The Murder of Meredith Kercher forum on Perugia Murder File.

Each post in each thread represents one page from that main discussion thread. Simply use the scroll bars in the embedded page in each post, or your mouse wheel, to navigate up or down within the page. I shall be copying over the final Main Discussion Thread in the near future. Note: Each copied over thread may take a while to load, since you are in effect loading multiple Web pages at once. I'm afraid that can't be helped.

Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:50 pm   Post subject: ADMINISTRATOR NOTE   

:!: Administrator Note:

New Forum Feature!

I've created an Announcement thread called FORUM TOOLS in The Murder of Meredith Kercher forum on Perugia Murder File.

Each post within the thread has its own online tool embedded which can be used directly from the post. The tools are as follows:

PERUGIA MURDER FILE FORUM SEARCH
PERUGIA MURDER FILE GOOGLE ENGINE
GOOGLE TRANSLATE
EMM SEARCH ENGINE
THE TRUE CRIME WEBLOG MESSAGE BOARD FORUM SEARCH
SPELL CHECKER
ONLINE UNIVERSAL CONVERTER
WAYBACKMACHINE


If there are any tools you would like to see added, just let me know :)

Michael

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"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES


Last edited by Michael on Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline indie


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:39 pm   Post subject:    

Jesus, Mary and Joseph!!! Is Michael getting us ready for trial or what? :P
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:30 pm   Post subject:    

Wow, Michael! What great features! :) 8-)
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Offline Jumpy


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:22 am   Post subject:    

Thank you Michael, this is great!
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Offline indie


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:52 am   Post subject:    

Brian S. wrote:

snipped>>>>>

It's a term of denigration which has been picked up by the traditional media as they watch their "POWER and INFLUENCE" diminish.




In line with this thought, Princeton University now asks applicants to list their favorite website along with the usual favorite book, movie, quote etc. There is no mention of favorite newspaper or newsmagazine. I guess one's favorite website could be quite insightful. ;)
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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:14 am   Post subject: MONICA GUZMAN'S ANNOUNCEMENT   

The Italian Woman's gal pal, Monica Guzman over at the Seattle PI has announced some details of IW's book deal at "The Big Blog".

Apparently Monica interviewed Candace Dempsey last Friday. Here's a sample:

Quote:
Dempsey, an Italian American who covered cops and courts for Spokane's Spokesman-Review, was drawn to the mystery both because of a dual fascination with true crime and Italian crime and because of the connections she saw between Kercher's fate and her own life. Dempsey was assaulted on a date as a teen. And like Stephanie Kercher, she, too, knows what it is to mourn the loss of a younger sister.


Of course, comments are not allowed.

MONICA GUZMAN ANNOUNCES DEMPSEY'S BOOK
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Offline Jumpy


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:22 am   Post subject:    

No shame!
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:01 am   Post subject:    

Indie wrote:
I guess one's favorite website could be quite insightful.


You bet. :lol:

And back on topic, something I'm trying to clear up in my own mind.

Others may already be aware of this, but somehow I managed to mix it up.

ISTM there are at least two witnesses to Amanda's visit to the shop. (The shop assistant is possibly a third since the GU hinted on Porta a Porta it may well have another witness it hasn't spoken of yet)

There is the manager who says Amanda was waiting outside at 7:45 when he opened the shop although he doesn't know what she bought.

Then there would appear to be a customer:

Giornale dell'Umbria. 16Nov 2008. Bene, Fiorucci, Fois.

'I saw Amanda that morning.' It's 7'45am, Nov2 2007. Perugia is still sleeping. Piazza Grimana is deserted. Almost all the students are away for the holiday weekend. The University is open but there are no lessons. Two young people, a short distance between them, go into the only shop that is open at that time...'The young woman was wearing a lightish grey, hooded jacket which was buttoned (zipped 'chiuso' d) all the way up, a pair of jeans, a grey/light blue scarf ('grigio azzurrino') which covered part of her face and and a dark coloured hat ('cappellino').' According to the witness, Amanda's blue eyes were behind this accouterment.
The witness is sure that it was her because he was often in that area and had seen both Sollecito and Knox on other occasions. 'I often saw him and I had noticed the American woman with him in the period leading up to the murder.. I looked at her closely because I was used to seeing Raffaele alone. It's for this reason that I remembered her.'
The witness says he has an excellent visual memory. 'When Amanda was arrested and I saw her photo in the papers and on TV, I told some of my colleagues immediately that she was the person I'd seen on the morning of Nov2 shopping in the same shop where I was.' ...
'It was very strange that a young female student was shopping at 7'45am. That morning was basically a holiday and nobody was around. In that area, students rarely go out so early. Maybe when there are lessons they do but that morning there were no lessons.'
What's stranger is the description of the young woman's behaviour. 'She was behaving circumspectly. She was covering her face and for this reason I couldn't see all of it, as if she didn't want to look anyone in the eye. She was about 1m65 tall and had light coloured eyes. When she came into the shop she didn't greet anyone, she just looked around and went to the part of the shop where they keep detergents but I'm not sure if she bought anything.'...The new witness gave another relevant detail. 'When she left the shop, she didn't go up corso Garibaldi (towards RS's flat) but towards Piazza Grimana', and so in the direction of cottage...


A translation by Damian at All of us for Meredith

Since this is a translation from the GU, I can't see how they would mix up a "young" customer who was "often in the area" with the manager who was always in his shop.

Can anyone help me to clear this up?
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:07 am   Post subject:    

Brian, I don't know if this helps, but I think it was initially reported that a male witness who saw Amanda near or in the shop was a student. If true, he can't be the shopkeeper.

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Offline Brian S.


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Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:33 am   Post subject: Re: MONICA GUZMAN'S ANNOUNCEMENT   

Tara wrote:
The Italian Woman's gal pal, Monica Guzman over at the Seattle PI has announced some details of IW's book deal at "The Big Blog".

Apparently Monica interviewed Candace Dempsey last Friday. Here's a sample:

Quote:
Dempsey, an Italian American who covered cops and courts for Spokane's Spokesman-Review, was drawn to the mystery both because of a dual fascination with true crime and Italian crime and because of the connections she saw between Kercher's fate and her own life. Dempsey was assaulted on a date as a teen. And like Stephanie Kercher, she, too, knows what it is to mourn the loss of a younger sister.


Of course, comments are not allowed.

MONICA GUZMAN ANNOUNCES DEMPSEY'S BOOK



What a load of crap.

ISTM that neither Candace Dempsey or Monica Guzman have the depth to understand the difference between an assault on a date which was made of her own choosing and a cold blooded murder in your own home.

Nor is there the slightest comparison between loosing a loved one to natural causes(cancer) and loosing a loved one as Stephanie Kercher lost her sister.

Ive got news for them both. Most people I know have lost a loved one to illness or age and understand how that feels. That kind of grief will ease over time. It's the natural way of the world. Death will come to us all in the end.

I only know one person who had a loved one murdered and there is absolutely no similarity between the two situations. His wife was found decapitated in Africa. No-one was ever charged with her murder although both he and her parents spent YEARS trying to find out the truth. None of them ever came to terms with not knowing what happened. Her parents died of old age without ever getting any answers.


PS Candace and Monica

I went to my sister's funeral this week. Older than your sister but mine was only 53 when she died of cancer of the throat. Do you think I can also understand how Stephanie Kercher feels?
Balls.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:07 am   Post subject: Despair   

Brian wrote:

Quote:
Tara wrote:
The Italian Woman's gal pal, Monica Guzman over at the Seattle PI has announced some details of IW's book deal at "The Big Blog".

Apparently Monica interviewed Candace Dempsey last Friday. Here's a sample:

Quote:
Dempsey, an Italian American who covered cops and courts for Spokane's Spokesman-Review, was drawn to the mystery both because of a dual fascination with true crime and Italian crime and because of the connections she saw between Kercher's fate and her own life. Dempsey was assaulted on a date as a teen. And like Stephanie Kercher, she, too, knows what it is to mourn the loss of a younger sister.


Of course, comments are not allowed.

MONICA GUZMAN ANNOUNCES DEMPSEY'S BOOK



What a load of crap.

ISTM that neither Candace Dempsey or Monica Guzman have the depth to understand the difference between an assault on a date which was made of her own choosing and a cold blooded murder in your own home.

Nor is there the slightest comparison between loosing a loved one to natural causes(cancer) and loosing a loved one as Stephanie Kercher lost her sister.

Ive got news for them both. Most people I know have lost a loved one to illness or age and understand how that feels. That kind of grief will ease over time. It's the natural way of the world. Death will come to us all in the end.

I only know one person who had a loved one murdered and there is absolutely no similarity between the two situations. His wife was found decapitated in Africa. No-one was ever charged with her murder although both he and her parents spent YEARS trying to find out the truth. None of them ever came to terms with not knowing what happened. Her parents died of old age without ever getting any answers.


PS Candace and Monica

I went to my sister's funeral this week. Older than your sister but mine was only 53 when she died of cancer of the throat. Do you think I can also understand how Stephanie Kercher feels?
Balls.


Well said, Brian. I'm sorry about your sister.
It takes not only balls, but zero brains and a hugely over-inflated ego to say what Candace Dempsey has said above. I am sure I'll get over it, but for the moment I am gobsmacked.
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:47 am   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Brian, I don't know if this helps, but I think it was initially reported that a male witness who saw Amanda near or in the shop was a student. If true, he can't be the shopkeeper.




EMM search in action for the dates 16th/17th November

Most of these stories are a version of the GU story, but 3 of the stories explicitly state that the witness is a customer.

If you want to read one pick one of the last two in the list.

They don't mention he is a student but I suspect he is. He's young and seems to be plenty aware of the lecture schedule and student habits.
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:35 am   Post subject: Amanda's defense   

Amanda's defense exposed??

...connections she saw between Kercher's fate and her own life. Dempsey was assaulted on a date as a teen.

I can hear it now:

"Rudy said he had a date with a girl. We say that date was arranged with Meredith and she let him in."
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:24 pm   Post subject:    

Brian wrote:

Quote:
Amanda's defense exposed??
...connections she saw between Kercher's fate and her own life. Dempsey was assaulted on a date as a teen.
I can hear it now:
"Rudy said he had a date with a girl. We say that date was arranged with Meredith and she let him in."


This line of defense has been suggested more or less obliquely, and Candace continues to push the Lone Wolf theory well past its sell-by date, aided and echoed by a few trusted sources.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:28 pm   Post subject: Food for thought from a frog   

Frog-y has made a couple of interesting posts on Candace's blog. I am reposting them here because they may be deleted and that would be shame, because they contain food for thought:

First post:
"Candace, just an honest, sincere observation concerning your book deal: you are going to fight an uphill battle to not be seen as writing a book about Amanda Knox (if you don't want to be seen as writing a book about Amanda).

That battle won't come from other blogs. The perception will come from the public at large: look at the TeleNorba incident and their news in general on the case. The coverage they have given to the case has always been described as coming from "Raffaele's home-town TV station".

Your book could be written from either a journalistic perspective (where a balance of points of view, and fair treatment makes or breaks the quality), or from an editorial, opinionated view of specific aspects and persons in the case.

If your focus is the former, you'll have to work at demonstrating to the public and your readers (here and future readers of your book) that you are more than just Amanda's "home-town author".

In that regard, the treatment you dish out to the other suspects, the Italian judicial system and in particular to the Kerchers will be important (your "hangover and waving goodbye" post is an unfortunate urban legend in that regard - even though you finally changed it -, and I don't say that to be rude or insulting, but as a simple observation).

Close relationships (or simply association) with persons like Kelly13 and his historically cached Internet posts aren't helpful in that regard either.

I'll try to be tactful, but since you say that you allow polite disagreement, allow me to say that your independence is not clear, or at least it may appear to not be clear. And if that is a value you look for in promoting and selling your book, you will have to make an extra effort to convince readers that it exists.

The scrutiny from other blogs which you feel has dogged you and your relationships will grow, not from those blogs and the interest of a few discussion board writers in the comfort of their homes around the world. It will probably come from other, larger media as this case advances and your book edges towards publication.

Do you have a publication date? Will you wait for the trial to end? Check and recheck your data. If you write about the "clear as mud" view of the cottage gate, try moving to the left before taking the photo. If you interview Toto again, keep in mind that his comments to a visiting American lady with sunglasses and a digital camera in hand are about as reliable as Signora Nara's comments to Paul Ciolini or to Frank."

Second post:

"Candace said: "I'm happy to say that Monica Guzman announced my book deal for Murder In Italy ... like Stephanie Kercher, she (Candace), too, knows what it is to mourn the loss of a younger sister."
============
You have emphasised in other posts that our interchange of comments here is about "the murder of Meredith Kercher on Nov. 1, 2007. That's why we're all here."

Will your book "Murder in Italy" incorporate any interviews with Stephanie in particular, or with the Kercher family? That would probably be the best way to see if your experiences are comparable.

If you request such an interview and they don't grant it to you, how will you be able to focus in on and talk about their mourning other than from the newspaper clippings we have all read about Arline's health and other such already publicised details?

I have lost very close family members to lengthy illnesses, and I cry whenever I relive losing them. However, I have no idea whatsoever what it is to lose a close family member to murder. None.

I think the only way to get anywhere near the Kerchers' loss, and be able to reflect in words that loss would be to speak with them. That is, if the book is about the brutal murder of Meredith. Maybe - unlike your stated purpose of this discussion board - the book won't be focused on Meredith but on other players in this case."
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Offline Tara


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Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:40 pm   Post subject: Re: MONICA GUZMAN'S ANNOUNCEMENT   

Brian S. wrote:
Tara wrote:
The Italian Woman's gal pal, Monica Guzman over at the Seattle PI has announced some details of IW's book deal at "The Big Blog".

Apparently Monica interviewed Candace Dempsey last Friday. Here's a sample:

Quote:
Dempsey, an Italian American who covered cops and courts for Spokane's Spokesman-Review, was drawn to the mystery both because of a dual fascination with true crime and Italian crime and because of the connections she saw between Kercher's fate and her own life. Dempsey was assaulted on a date as a teen. And like Stephanie Kercher, she, too, knows what it is to mourn the loss of a younger sister.


Of course, comments are not allowed.

MONICA GUZMAN ANNOUNCES DEMPSEY'S BOOK



What a load of crap.

ISTM that neither Candace Dempsey or Monica Guzman have the depth to understand the difference between an assault on a date which was made of her own choosing and a cold blooded murder in your own home.

Nor is there the slightest comparison between loosing a loved one to natural causes(cancer) and loosing a loved one as Stephanie Kercher lost her sister.

Ive got news for them both. Most people I know have lost a loved one to illness or age and understand how that feels. That kind of grief will ease over time. It's the natural way of the world. Death will come to us all in the end.

I only know one person who had a loved one murdered and there is absolutely no similarity between the two situations. His wife was found decapitated in Africa. No-one was ever charged with her murder although both he and her parents spent YEARS trying to find out the truth. None of them ever came to terms with not knowing what happened. Her parents died of old age without ever getting any answers.


PS Candace and Monica

I went to my sister's funeral this week. Older than your sister but mine was only 53 when she died of cancer of the throat. Do you think I can also understand how Stephanie Kercher feels?
Balls.


Brian,

I'm so sorry about your sister.

You have expressed my thoughts as well. I have lost both my parents and my daughter, none of them to violence. I am sad, but at peace with their passing. Meredith's family will NEVER have this comfort and Candace Dempsey's analogy is a most jaw-dropping statement.

She also stated that people would be surprised to hear who her "sources" are. Her attempt at being mysterious certainly will never prompt me to ever buy her book.

Her insensitivity to the Kerchers and comparisons to her own life experiences are just plain selfish, in my opinion. Many here have had some frightening incidents happen to them, but the bottom line is we are all still living our lives.

On another note about this, why would Candace Dempsey have Monica Guzman make this announcement? I don't know how this kind of thing works, so maybe having someone else announce your book deal is standard protocal. I don't see why the IW wouldn't just announce it herself? I see she's already correcting the article where it says "Italian crime" to Italian culture. Why not just do it yourself so it goes out correctly in the first place?
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:17 pm   Post subject: Spin, spin, spin   

Tara wrote:

Quote:
Brian,
I'm so sorry about your sister.
You have expressed my thoughts as well. I have lost both my parents and my daughter, none of them to violence. I am sad, but at peace with their passing. Meredith's family will NEVER have this comfort and Candace Dempsey's analogy is a most jaw-dropping statement.


I have said it before, but my heart goes out to both of you. And you didn't mention it Tara, but you have shared your own date rape experience with us.

Tara wrote:

Quote:
On another note about this, why would Candace Dempsey have Monica Guzman make this announcement? I don't know how this kind of thing works, so maybe having someone else announce your book deal is standard protocol. I don't see why the IW wouldn't just announce it herself? I see she's already correcting the article where it says "Italian crime" to Italian culture. Why not just do it yourself so it goes out correctly in the first place?


I think there are several reasons. The obvious one is that Monica Guzman reaches a much larger audience than Candace does. Also, Candace may have thought that the "jaw-dropping analogy" would sound better if delivered by someone else. Finally, Candace needed to be seen as unveiling her book project to blunt the impact of Fast Pete's "scoop." It clearly caught her by surprise and she needed to find a riposte.
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Offline Tara


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Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:25 pm   Post subject: Young and Popular   

Hi Skep,

You wrote:
Quote:
I think there are several reasons. The obvious one is that Monica Guzman reaches a much larger audience than Candace does. Also, Candace may have thought that the "jaw-dropping analogy" would sound better if delivered by someone else. Finally, Candace needed to be seen as unveiling her book project to blunt the impact of Fast Pete's "scoop." It clearly caught her by surprise and she needed to find a riposte.


Oh, ok! Thanks for clarifying. It seems to be a calculated tactic by Dempsey to have Monica Guzman, the much younger and much more popular journalist for the Seattle PI "break the ice" about the book. The true victim, Meredith Kercher is almost forgotten on Candace Dempsey's blog, where the focus remains on Dempsey's perceived victim, Amanda Knox. :shock: Most people reading about her book deal might find that very offensive, thus the need for Guzman to make the announcement. Monica Guzman made a poor decision in my opinion. :roll:
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Offline Tara


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Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:03 pm   Post subject: Comparisons, not even close.   

Skep wrote:
Quote:
I have said it before, but my heart goes out to both of you. And you didn't mention it Tara, but you have shared your own date rape experience with us.


The post where I shared my experience was hard to compose. Not the actual event, but it's relationship to this case. I felt, (and still do) that Meredith in no way consented to anything. There is NO comparison to what actually happened to her on that horrific evening of November 1, 2007.

I simply wanted to provide a glimpse of MY terror. NOBODY alive can compare their experience to Meredith Kercher's. It's impossible. You'd think that an award winning journalist would be able to state her motives more eloquently. As Pete says, Seattle deserves better.

Speaking of eloquence; Skep, I hope you don't mind if I bring your comment over from Pete's True Justice site. It was really beautiful and needs to be here as well:

Skep wrote at TJMK:

Quote:
sy Ed wrote: “Without getting philosophical (too late already), as the Internet nudges out the other media such as television and newspapers, there will only be blogs. Since anyone can start one, people will gather round the ones that say what they like to hear or the truth (like it or not).”

I agree with Ed that the ultimate choice lies with the people. They choose to gravitate toward what makes them feel good and/or comforts their world view or to ferret out the truth, wherever it happens to be.

Monica Guzman, of the PI’s Big Blog, began her superficial coverage of the Kercher murder with some interesting questions about the Internet and privacy, only to abandon them. Since then, her coverage has been lazy and lop-sided. Yesterday, she posted briefly on Candace Dempsey’s book deal. Incidentally, Candace shows yet again that she doesn’t understand what a leak is. News of her book deal was not “leaked” by this website. It was in the public domain (she herself called it an “open secret") and Fast Pete found information about the deal. He reported it on this website. Now, we can only wonder when Dempsey was planning to make the announcement.

In any case, many people may be put off to learn that Dempsey makes “connections… between Meredith Kercher’s fate and her own life. Dempsey was assaulted on a date as a teen. And like Stephanie Kercher, she, too, knows what it is to mourn the loss of a younger sister.”

One of my favorite college professors taught me a long time ago about the perils of comparing one kind of suffering to another, of comparing my suffering to your suffering. Getting a hangnail is clearly not as serious as having one’s hand chopped off in an industrial accident.

But for most people, it is intuitively true that the difference between date rape and what happened to Meredith Kercher is huge, and that any comparison of this sort is an act of emotional violence.

As for the loss suffered when a sibling dies, in both cases the loved one is gone forever. But if I had to choose, I would not choose to lose my sister in the way Stephanie Kercher lost hers. Nobody would. Again, the comparison is obscene.

I suspect I’m not the only person out there who stopped contributing to the PI Reader blog out of sheer frustration. The subject of the blog was misleading. It was supposed to be about Meredith Kercher, but it seemed to me that it was more about Candace Dempsey. In my opinion, her latest comments confirm that she is utterly shameless.

Posted by Skeptical Bystander on 12/10/08 at 11:49 AM | #


JUST PERFECT.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:13 pm   Post subject:    

Tara wrote:

Quote:
Oh, ok! Thanks for clarifying. It seems to be a calculated tactic by Dempsey to have Monica Guzman, the much younger and much more popular journalist for the Seattle PI "break the ice" about the book. The true victim, Meredith Kercher is almost forgotten on Candace Dempsey's blog, where the focus remains on Dempsey's perceived victim, Amanda Knox. Most people reading about her book deal might find that very offensive, thus the need for Guzman to make the announcement. Monica Guzman made a poor decision in my opinion.


While Guzman is certainly much younger and more plugged in, I don't have any idea about her popularity. I've seen some pretty harsh things written about her by other, less mainstream journalists. She often comes off as both glib and ditzy to me.

And frankly, I think the prima dona victim on Candace's blog is Candace. AK comes in at a distant second. Meredith is just petals from an English rose, plucked too soon.

I don't know whether Guzman's decision is important enough to qualify as poor or not. The blog on which she writes is a source of passing news for many. Here today and gone tomorrow. It probably gets a lot of younger readers who wouldn't otherwise bother with the PI. That is certainly the hope.

I really think it all comes down to wounded pride and ego for Candace. Pete rained on her parade, and it was something she was probably starting to feel kind of cheesy (yet excited) about. Anyway, now it is a done deal and Candace can focus on shaping her notes and documents into a marketable book. I doubt she'll really know what it's ultimately about until the trial is nearly over.

One always faces a dilemma: Do you want to be the first to get a book out, in case interest continues to wane? Or do you want to write the one memorable book about the subject?

It's possible that there are other people out there working on books that cover the same subject but we don't know about them because they have kept themselves out of the story and quietly gone about doing their research and observing.
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Offline Jools


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

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Location: Spain

PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 8:10 pm   Post subject: Indecisive   

OT. Have a laugh, I did!

The Fellini expert being totally clueless in the usual rabid O'Reilly.
She says: Senseless in Seattle, do you have to have a Ying and Yang for everything... :lol:

Video link:
http://www.horsesass.org/?p=10689
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 9:35 pm   Post subject:    

Jools quoted Annie B on O'Reilly:

Quote:
She says: Senseless in Seattle, do you have to have a Ying and Yang for everything.


Do you think Senseless in Seattle is a reference to herself?

Here are two funny comments to the post:

1.
At least David Goldstein has never been convicted of driving without a valid license. Anne Bremner was convicted of this criminal offense while she was an attorney and working for the King County Prosecuting Attorney’s office.

12/02/2008 at 10:32 pm


2. notaboomer spews:

Oh pope, don’t go there. Let’s just say that anne bremner has gotten the greta van susteren thing done to her face and it was a mistake.
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Offline Jools


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Location: Spain

PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:54 pm   Post subject: Ying & Yang in Seattle   

Skep,

I read Goldstein's blog and she is not much like by a lot of people. :lol:

Lets face it... She seems a sandwich short of a picnic :lol:
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 11:17 pm   Post subject: O'Rotten Factor   

Jools wrote:

Quote:
I read Goldstein's blog and she is not much like by a lot of people.
Lets face it... She seems a sandwich short of a picnic.


And as many posters noted, she did not offer any legal interpretation or analysis whatsoever. It's almost as if O'Reilly thought her mere presence, bobbing her head as he spoke, was enough to convince people that he was right. In fact, he was spewing total rubbish. He can't let anyone finish a sentence, can he?
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 11:42 pm   Post subject: The Nov 6 questioning   

Candace is yet again claiming that AK was interrogated all night. Apparently, she has forgotten what the Supreme Court said in its April ruling, namely, that the questioning of Amanda Knox as a witness was halted at 1:45 am because she had made incriminating statements and thus had become a suspect (see bold text below, from Frank's published excerpts from the SC ruling). That is precisely why questioning stopped: it is illegal to question a suspect without the presence of a lawyer, and at 1:45 am AK did not have a lawyer on hand to represent her. This point has been clarified again and again and again.

AK then made a "spontaneous" statement at 5:45 am,which the court has ruled cannot be used because she was without legal representation when she spontaneously made the statement. After all, it was not yet 6 am. I'm thinking they were waiting until morning to take the next step and did not expect Knox to want to speak.
Maybe it would be easier to grasp this point if the term "false confession" was also thrown out. Also, a trusted source who was not present is not much good as a source in this case. And the public record differs from what the trusted source is saying.

Amanda:
They used the statements I made at 1.45 am on November 6 when I didn't not have the presence of an attorney to defend me.
I was questioned again at 5.45 am and gave "spontaneous statements," but these are not admissible due to the status I had acquired in the mean time.
Both are violations of Article 63 cpp.
Supreme Court:
Statements released without the proper legal guarantees can't be used contra se (against the person) --not even against other suspects-- when there is already circumstantial evidence against the person who makes them.
But when the person is heard as a witness the total lock-up (can't be used at all, not against the one who makes them nor against other suspects) provided by Article 63 cpp does not apply.
In this case, the fact that he is just a witness and as such outside the facts protects him from possible abuse by the investigators (Cass.Sez.Un. 13/2/1997).


Arguing from these principles, the statements you made at 1.45 can only be used contra alios (against another person).
As a result of those statements, the interrogation was suspended and you became "indagata"(a suspect).
The "spontaneous statements" made at 5.45 am are not admissible against you or against other suspects because you had already become "indagata" and you did not have legal protection.But, the memoir you wrote was a spontaneous defensive act and is admissible against you.


Last edited by Skeptical Bystander on Thu Dec 11, 2008 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:41 am   Post subject: Atention Seeker   

Skep wrote:
And frankly, I think the prima dona victim on Candace's blog is Candace. AK comes in at a distant second. Meredith is just petals from an English rose, plucked too soon.


Hi Skep. Well, it all stems from her overwhelming need to be the center of attention...the ultimate attention seeker. This in fact is why she micro-manages her blogs to such a degree. Yes, making sure it's putting out the right propaganda and is staying on message is part of it, but that alone doesn't explain why she just can't let people get on with having their conversations without butting in on every single one. As soon as people start to have a free conversation their focus is on the case, not on Candace. Therein is her problem, she can't help herself, she has to jump in whenever she feels it's no longer about 'her'. It's like the little child who's having a birthday party...'It's MY party, this is about ME!' It's 'showbiz' that she really desires, only that demands talent. Prima dona? You bet!

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Offline Jumpy


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:01 am   Post subject:    

I've been thinking about the cook quote on the PI site, in the back of my mind, all day. It is disgusting. Are these people truly delusional or are they just evil? Like the Governor of Illinois, whatever won't go into that. They just don't care about the devastation of the Kercher family. They don't think twice that there is right and there is wrong. They don't put their heads down on a pillow at night and wonder if there might be something they might do better tomorow. They don't care about Meredith Kercher. It is so disgusting. I don't know. It has made me a bit emotional.

I do believe this statement by Candy saying she was attacked while on a date is directly a push for the Knox defense. I wish she would answer Frogy's question whether she will wait until after the trial to publish her book. I'm betting she won't because her fucking black soul is craving any paycheck she can muster.

A pox on her. Not kidding.

On that note, I am confident the gruesome twosome along with the pooper will rot in jail for quite some time. Still I just feel icky knowing that people like Candy are making money off of this.

night night.
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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:27 am   Post subject: Daily Mail   

Here's another display of hypocrisy over at the IW's table:
Quote:
#227509Posted by oceania8 at 12/10/08 1:34 p.m.

Here's the link to the Patrick Lumumba interview I copied a paragraph form yesterday. As I said earlier he later retracted the part that he had been hit.

DAILY MAIL ***

***URL SHORTENED BY TARA FOR THIS POST

Report violation


Candace Dempsey has taught her followers numerous times that the Daily Mail is NOT a reliable source. Yet, oceania8 is allowed to link to it with no reminder. Had Frogy cited this article, his comment would most likely have been deleted, or he'd get a slap on the frog leg! :lol:

I learned long ago this board's feelings about the Daily Mail as well! I cited this very article once myself, here or on the old TC board and was called out on it! I do like the pictures of Patrick Lumumba and his family however - they're really good, and I hope that one day in the future, they can find happiness like they display in these photos...

The IW really fell down on her micromanagement of that post! :P
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 5:42 am   Post subject: Worst tabloid in the world?   

Didn't the hormonal one also say The Daily Mail is notorious for being the worst tabloid in the world?
What a horrible catty and untrue statement.
She is certainly showing her ignorance and true self here.
Is it because Nick Pisa contributes to this paper, her object of hissing envy - as he is a respected journalist and she is just a cookery blogger on a local rag?
My younger brother has been a journalist for the past 20 years now and contributes regularly to the Times, Telegraph and Guardian and also does stuff for their magazines on Sundays.
He knows Nick Pisa and once when I visited my brother years ago we had a few beers with him in a pub in the west end one early evening.
But I digress.
Considering the hormonal ones obsession with libel, is it not libel to describe a respected newspaper as such as she says?

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R.I.P
Meredith Kercher.
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Offline daisysteiner


Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:59 pm

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:00 pm   Post subject:    

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 323413.ece

I see Amanda, the ever shrinking violet, is cashing in on her infamy again....

EDIT: OK not cashing in! Poor use of words! It is, by the sound of it though, another "poor old little me" episode. Tried to Google as it may have been leaked online but no joy, no doubt it will appear soon.
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:07 pm   Post subject:    

KERCHER MURDER SUSPECT IN JAIL FILM
Amanda Knox 'magnetic actress' in publicly funded movie

ANSA) - December, 11 - Amanda Knox, the 20 year-old American suspect in the murder of British student Meredith Kercher, is starring in a film shot at the Perugia jail where she has been held since her arrest in November last year. Knox is among 12 female prisoners who act in the 55-minute movie, entitled The Last City, which was funded by the Umbria regional government at a reported cost of between 10,000 and 15,000 euros.

''This is the first time we've made a film in the prison - until now we've only put on shows,'' said the movie's director, Claudio Carini, who works on the prison's reintegration programme.

''Amanda volunteered in September and we started filming immediately. She was diligent, disciplined, good. She worked hard, just like all the others,'' he said.

Knox and her co-stars play 12 prisoners who dream of escape and who go on an imaginary journey to seven different 'cities': those of cinema, work, music, loneliness, madness, dreams and prison, according to Carini.

Italian daily Corriere della Sera reported Knox as saying that ''making this film has been a great experience. The story is full of poetry, touching, emotional''.

The film was due to be screened at a city centre cinema on Sunday as part of Perugia's Batik Independent Film Festival, but was withdrawn at the last minute on the request of Knox's lawyers.

It will now be shown at the end of January, after Knox and her former Italian boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito begin their murder trial.

'MAGNETIC ACTRESS'.

''She's a magnetic actress'', Batik Director Alessandro Riccini Ricci, one of the few people to have seen the film, told Corriere della Sera.

Knox, who recites Hamlet's 'To be or not to be' speech in Italian and English, has ''a personality which stands out over the others, together with a strong stage presence''.

''Even if we hadn't known who she was we would certainly have noticed her because she's a good actress,'' Riccini Ricci said.

The film was shot over three months at the prison's theatre using minimalist scenery, while the prisoners appear without costumes or make-up.

Instead they pass a hat to each other when it is their turn to speak.

''For us making a film has a rehabilitative and reintegrative function,'' said the region's social policy chief Damiano Stufara.

''We don't want to single out Amanda. For us all the prisoners are equal''.

Stufara said the region had agreed to Knox's lawyer's request to delay the screening of the movie in view of the upcoming trial.

''We certainly don't want this film to bring to Perugia the type of publicity that arrived with the Kercher murder,'' he said.

People of Freedom party senator Laura Allegrini expressed ''astonishment and disappointment'' at the project's inclusion of Knox, who had to get special permission to participate as she is still awaiting trial.

Allegrini said the film would fuel celebrity-style media coverage of the American, whose 'angel-faced' looks have helped grab headlines, ''as if she were a star and not a young woman accused of a horrible crime''.

''In all of this, the victim and her family are put in second place''.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:27 pm   Post subject: new 'movie star'   

Jools and daisysteiner, thank you for sharing this news. Quite a chilling surprise, I must say. It's all falling into place now. The picture is becoming more clear as we put the puzzle pieces together that make up the 'Amanda interview'. My guess is: Frank Sfarzo used his contacts in the 'film industry' to send Amanda his questions and receive her 'answers'. It also makes Patrick's comment that she is an 'actress' very prescient... This girl has no shame whatsoever.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:24 pm   Post subject:    

"Knox, who recites Hamlet's .."

Why not Prospero?

"And my ending is despair,
Unless I be relieved by prayer,
Which pierces so that it assaults
Mercy itself and frees all faults.
As you from crimes would pardon'd be,
Let your indulgence set me free."
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:40 pm   Post subject:    

Some comment after reading the Italain press (this news is all over it).

The film appears to have hit a political nerve. The questions being asked:

Is this a good use of "public money" in the rehabilitation of prisoners?

&

If they were gonna do this why on earth did they include Amanda?



Mind you, the press also seemed to have sneaked a view. After visiting the "outside cities", the final "city" finds the "actors" back in the "real world". Locked up in prison.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:00 pm   Post subject: Rehabilitation?   

Since the film was financed by money that has been afforded for the purpose of the 'rehabilitation' of offenders, one has to wonder why Knox was in it. What rehabilitation does she need since she has not yet even been convicted of a crime, her trial not yet even having taken place? Technically, she's only on remand. What then, is their justification for putting her in the film, why did they do so?

Could it be because Amanda Knox is now a brand and the film makers wanted to exploit that to the max in order to draw the crowds? The film makers after all, don't want to be stuck making low budget prisoner movies forever, they want the limelight, the big funding, their names in lights. It seems everyone is just lining up to exploit Amanda, using her name to sell copy, market books and now films. As for her, it seems she's only too happy to 'be' exploited...she must feel like a star.

Alternatively, they could have looked at her and thought 'Yeah, she's as guilty as sin...the trial result's a forgone conclusion....she for sure needs rehabilitating!' :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 5:14 pm   Post subject: ADMINISTRATOR NOTE   

:!: Administrator Note:

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Offline daisysteiner


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 5:25 pm   Post subject:    

Michael, I'll take Brand Knox as the explanation, but I'm prepared to also go with the "yeah she's as guilty as a very guilty looking puppy sat next to a steaming pile of poo" explanation too!

I can feel a backlash coming on due to this film. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the "innocent Amanda" campaign non-existent in Italy and general public opinion (based on media etc) is that Knox is guilty? If so, then the latter could be an explanation or rather a massive misjudgement on behalf of the director. If she is guilty of everything levelled at her, how can the film be shown without insulting the Kerchers, sensationalist headlines and public complaints about using a convicted sex killer to sell films, no matter how wonderfully rehabiliative and artistic? Featuring Knox might generate publicity for the film but if I was John & Arline Kercher, once a conviction was secured, I'd go for an injunction on the film. In Britain at the very least.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 5:33 pm   Post subject: Re: Rehabilitation   

daisysteiner wrote:
Michael, I'll take Brand Knox as the explanation, but I'm prepared to also go with the "yeah she's as guilty as a very guilty looking puppy sat next to a steaming pile of poo" explanation too!

I can feel a backlash coming on due to this film. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the "innocent Amanda" campaign non-existent in Italy and general public opinion (based on media etc) is that Knox is guilty? If so, then the latter could be an explanation or rather a massive misjudgement on behalf of the director. If she is guilty of everything levelled at her, how can the film be shown without insulting the Kerchers, sensationalist headlines and public complaints about using a convicted sex killer to sell films, no matter how wonderfully rehabiliative and artistic? Featuring Knox might generate publicity for the film but if I was John & Arline Kercher, once a conviction was secured, I'd go for an injunction on the film. In Britain at the very least.


Hi Daisysteiner :) I am actually very curious to see the Kercher family/Maresca response to this news. I am almost certain there will be one. As for an injunction, I am not at all sure if they would have the right under Italian law to take one out against the film...I would hope so. I think you are right about a backlash. I doubt there will be any in the USA, but in Italy where the suspects are viewed far less sympathetically and are more publicly known, I'm sure there will be disaproval to say the least.

Frank, our 'film maker', must be pretty chagrined that he wasn't on the film making team ;)

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 5:36 pm   Post subject: Me, myself, I: the remake   

Dasiysteiner wrote:

"How can the film be shown without insulting the Kerchers"?

The producers and director of the film cared about only one thing: generating buzz, controversy, making a splash. So this question did not even occur to them.

In accepting this "role," Amanda Knox and her advisors are simply showing once again that their protests about the media are totally hollow. So this question did not even occur to them.

Just when you think it can't get any worse, it does.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:24 pm   Post subject: She's White and Middle Class Damn It!   

Ferdi wrote:
Posted by Ferdi at 12/11/08 8:10 a.m. #227856

Posted by Ma'At at 12/11/08 7:10 a.m.

" Police aren't warm and fuzzy with suspects they are interrogating here in the States either. Nor should they be. "

But young people may not be prepared for this. If they are white, middle class and established, and innocent, they will expect that the police is on their side. For them, it is an disturbing experience if the police tries to frame them. They wouldn't expect that.



THE COOK'S SMOG


So there we have it, in black and white, straight from the horse's mouth...right from the Knox Camp. Amanda Knox should not have been treated like the rest of all the great unwashed, rather she should have had special treatment because she's 'young', 'white', 'middle-class' and 'established' (of the 'establishment', of the ruling class?). Here, the elitist priviledged mind set of the Knox Camp is summed up in one short neat little package.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:24 pm   Post subject: Best in show   

In the words of Frank (see his most recent blog entry, on the new witnesses and Amanda's teeny vibrator):

Quote:
And the greatest you are as an actor the less you are reliable in front of the judge.


In the words of Batik director Alessandro Riccini Ricci, one of the few to have seen the film, Amanda is "a magnetic actress," who has "a personality which stands out over the others, together with a strong stage presence... Even if we hadn't known who she was we would certainly have noticed her because she's a good actress.''

Okay, Alessandro, but don't tell the judge!
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Offline indie


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:30 pm   Post subject:    

Wow! A film starring Amanda, we couldn't make this up if we tried, folks.

Wonder if the PR firm hired by the Knox's was consulted because if they were and they okayed this they should be fired immediately.

Surreal.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:57 pm   Post subject: No comment... yet   

Indie wrote:

Quote:
Wonder if the PR firm hired by the Knox's was consulted because if they were and they okayed this they should be fired immediately
.


I think they are working on their spin right now. This is excerpted from an online newspaper (kentucky.com), which also quoted the director as saying Amanda had had "a lot of fun" doing this film. Perhaps the PR spin will be that since her incarceration she has become impassioned about prisoner rights and decided to lend her notoriety to a noble cause.



Quote:
The idea for the project began in June 2007 - months before Kercher's murder - so Knox's participation in it is purely coincidental, regional official Damiano Stufara said in a statement. Carini has been involved in a number of previous film projects.

The director of the Capanne prison, Antonio Fullone, who has seen the movie, said Thursday that because of Knox's participation in the film, "We thought it most appropriate not to screen it at the festival."

Fullone said a decision on whether to make the movie public has not been made yet.

Knox's lawyers in Italy and a spokesman in Seattle representing Knox's family were not immediately available for comment. Lawyers for Kercher's family also could not immediately be reached.
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:16 pm   Post subject:    

Skep wrote:
The idea for the project began in June 2007 - months before Kercher's murder - so Knox's participation in it is purely coincidental, regional official Damiano Stufara said in a statement. Carini has been involved in a number of previous film projects.


Calls for the resignation of Stufara. His office had known of the involvement of Knox since September.

Google translation of ASCA

I think the problem is perceived that Amanda is not a convicted prisoner who needs rehabilitation help before her release. Presumably, all the other actors were.

Information from news elsewhere says that Amanda starred in the "escape" sequence.
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Offline Corrina


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:37 pm   Post subject: What a time to check in   

I was really hoping this was some kind of joke. Sick? Yes, but a joke.

I'm gobsmacked. I'm angry. My heart goes out to Meredith's family. There are absolutely no words for this latest insult to the memory of Meredith Kercher.

Somebody tell me this is a fucking lousy lameass excuse for a joke...
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Offline Fly by Night


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:08 pm   Post subject: Similar in many, many ways...   

Less than a day after George and Cindy Anthony appeared in the press again, on CNN'S Larry King Live show Wednesday night, vigorously defending the innocence of their daughter Casey, the body of Casey's daughter Caylee was finally located - within a half mile of the grandparents home. What will George and Cindy say now? Odds are they will still go on and on, just like Kurt and Edda, about how their daughter is innocent and how she is being framed by a face-saving police & judicial system and unfair and prejudiced press/public opinion. So it goes, with the narcissism of Casey being no different than that of Amanda.
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:18 pm   Post subject:    

Another addition to the Knox group of supporters?

I wonder if he is one of the many fans that write to her in prison to tell her she is HOT!

As he comes out of court today he shouted to journalist and the victim's -Antonella Multari- parents:

('You have ruined my life, you are cursed corpses. Antonella was hidden. Amanda Knox is innocent and I am innocent, I have to go out, corpses, cursed, cursed corpses'.)

http://tinyurl.com/68qe4l
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:46 pm   Post subject: That favorite poem is O8: A Violation that Needs Reporting   

For anyone who wants go there, cherchez has written a really moving comment on Candace's blog about what it is like to lose a sister to cancer and the many ways in which this event (which many of us have seen up way too close), as horrible as it is, differs from what happened to the Kerchers. She doesn't speak for them, of course, but she shows a remarkable ability to emotionally imagine their pain without ever presuming to understand it.

Then there's Oceania the Apologist, with her usual sensitive commentary, this time about all of us whiners who think the film thing was a bad idea. We're such sissies!

Quote:
Posted by oceania8 at 12/11/08 11:25 a.m.

Oh the of horror of it all ! Books and movies about real life stories ! Prisoners involved in a film making excercise ! For all those sensitive souls so shocked and offended by these things - cricket and cucumber sandwiches will be served on the lawn at 3pm sharp and Miss Marples will be giving a reading of her favourite poem.


Last edited by Skeptical Bystander on Thu Dec 11, 2008 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:50 pm   Post subject: Re: Similar in many, many ways...   

Fly by Night wrote:
Less than a day after George and Cindy Anthony appeared in the press again, on CNN'S Larry King Live show Wednesday night, vigorously defending the innocence of their daughter Casey, the body of Casey's daughter Caylee was finally located - within a half mile of the grandparents home. What will George and Cindy say now? Odds are they will still go on and on, just like Kurt and Edda, about how their daughter is innocent and how she is being framed by a face-saving police & judicial system and unfair and prejudiced press/public opinion. So it goes, with the narcissism of Casey being no different than that of Amanda.


Hi FBN,

What a sad case this is as well, poor child.

Similar in many ways?

Here are a couple of posts of Charlie Weird on Caylee's case:

"This is typical. The prosecutor doesn't have much of a case, so in come
the expert witnesses with their junk science. "

"I am skeptical about the quality of the forensic science in this case.
In particular, the chloroform test sounds like bullshit. I'd like to
hear the prosecutor explain how he thinks the chloroform was used.
I think Casey is guilty of something. It could be anything from
premeditated murder to failing to notify authorities of an accidental
death. But I do not want to see her convicted on bogus evidence."
Charlie
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Offline Mutley


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:05 pm   Post subject:    

Is anybody really THAT surprised at this film? In a place where the body of the victim has been paraded on TV, where the police publish photos of the blood splashed bathroom and leak information as fast as it comes in and where the witnesses have a heavy schedule of chat shows and interviews to attend. The book deals are sprouting and even the prison chaplain has had his five minutes in front of the cameras to tell us all about the angel's religious instruction. The maker knew full well what her reputation and media profile was and used her despite that and her being a remand prisoner and so not a convict. So did the prison! Kickbacks governor? Or do I hear the rustle of memoir pages? Anybody care about the other twelve 'stars'? Know their names? Would anybody have paid the slightest attention to this worthy art film drivel without the inclusion of the suffering one? NO! Put her in and hey presto, more media spotlight than he could dream of. Trip to the bank and then talk to all those suddenly interested parties about his next 'cutting edge, challenging project'. There will be plenty more slimeball profiteers showing their credentials as the trial gets going.

Probably rather a dumb move by the innocent angel though. Good to get the film career going of course and some acting practice in, but it must of slipped her mind that it might appear a tad, well, insensitive. Not like her. Hope the judge doesn't agree she's a natural actress. If it gets sticky, just cue the blubbing AK, turn those taps on. Always works, mommy said so.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:18 pm   Post subject:    

Mutley wrote:

Quote:
Is anybody really THAT surprised at this film? In a place where the body of the victim has been paraded on TV, where the police publish photos of the blood splashed bathroom and leak information as fast as it comes in and where the witnesses have a heavy schedule of chat shows and interviews to attend. The book deals are sprouting and even the prison chaplain has had his five minutes in front of the cameras to tell us all about the angel's religious instruction. The maker knew full well what her reputation and media profile was and used her despite that and her being a remand prisoner and so not a convict. So did the prison! Kickbacks governor? Or do I hear the rustle of memoir pages? Anybody care about the other twelve 'stars'? Know their names? Would anybody have paid the slightest attention to this worthy art film drivel without the inclusion of the suffering one? NO! Put her in and hey presto, more media spotlight than he could dream of. Trip to the bank and then talk to all those suddenly interested parties about his next 'cutting edge, challenging project'. There will be plenty more slimeball profiteers showing their credentials as the trial gets going.


Nope, no real surprise. I've got a post that will be up any second on Pete's blog about this latest unsurprising development.

As for AK, this is just a screen test. Hollywood needs to know she is able to play herself in the movie version of Fellini Forensics.
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Offline Fly by Night


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:34 pm   Post subject: Re: Similar in many, many ways...   

Jools wrote:
Similar in many ways? Here are a couple of posts of Charlie Weird on Caylee's case...


Yeah Jools, there you have the standard fallback position for people who don't believe in accountability; who choose, instead, to live by the words "oh yeah? prove it!"

"There isn't a motive, and they haven't found a motive," Cindy Anthony said Wednesday night, implying that her daughter must then be innocent. Cindy added, "They told us they thought it was an accident, and she's scared and tried to cover it up. They don't feel there's a motive." So, the Anthony's seem to be saying that accidents will happen, and when they do it is OK to try to cover everything up because whoever caused it really didn't mean it. Same goes for the Knox case - we shouldn't care about innocence or guilt - just bring her home because she's such a good kid at heart.

Charlie would say, "One look at her and you can tell that loving mothers like Casey just don't up and murder their kids - it just doesn't happen and it is completely ridiculous for the prosecutor to make such an accusation." Casey's attorney, Jose Baez, claims that when they finally go to trial the truth will be revealed and she'll be free - geeze, it's always the same - but why make us wait?

"Casey has done nothing to her daughter. There is no evidence that shows that," Cindy Anthony said. "I can with 100 percent of my being say that I believe that Casey had nothing to do with Caylee's disappearance." That is very noble of you, Cindy. The Anthonys are, instead, focusing on alleged Caylee sightings around the US.

When questioned, Casey Anthony gave conflicting statements to police, including some that were later disproved, according to hundreds of documents and investigative reports released in the case. But this, of course, is the obvious result of police abuse and manipulation, to the point of confusing and exhausting poor Casey.

Cindy Anthony stressed that five searches for the girl's body have "come up with nothing. There's nothing that they have found..." - does this sound redundant and familiar? - NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER. Hey, anybody could have wrapped that body in plastic and duct tape and thrown it in the swamp - there are no witnesses - the mountain of circumstantial evidence can all be explained away - Casey is innocent - so is Amanda.


Last edited by Fly by Night on Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:50 pm   Post subject: We're in the money   

Nick Pisa reports in the dreaded Daily Mail that Amanda Knox asked the director, Claudio Carini, if she could be in his movie and he said yes. Pisa doesn't specify whether the dollar signs in Carini's eyes were actually visible or whether the loud KERRRRR-CHING was actually audible as he realized he had hit the jackpot.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:13 pm   Post subject: Re: We're in the money   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Nick Pisa reports in the dreaded Daily Mail that Amanda Knox asked the director, Claudio Carini, if she could be in his movie and he said yes. Pisa doesn't specify whether the dollar signs in Carini's eyes were actually visible or whether the loud KERRRRR-CHING was actually audible as he realized he had hit the jackpot.


Oh yes and here's the rub. If the film goes on to make a packet on the back of Amanda's notoriety and Amanda is also convicted of murder, the Kerchers although then being successful by default in their suit against her, will not be able to claim a penny from any money made by the film. This is due to the fact that Knox does not own it and it was made with government money rather then her own.

It is one of the most sickening elements of this case. All the parasites are beginning to cash in on Meredith's murder, but the Kerchers have yet to see a penny, will not see a penny for years and even at the end, may never see a penny. By which time, they may well have bankrupted themselves in persuing justice for their daughter over the years. Plenty of others will be doing alright out of it though!

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:23 pm   Post subject:    

I've got a post up on Fast Pete's truejustice.org site about the latest development.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:34 pm   Post subject: A fund for the Kerchers   

Michael wrote:

Quote:
It is one of the most sickening elements of this case. All the parasites are beginning to cash in on Meredith's murder, but the Kerchers have yet to see a penny, will not see a penny for years and even at the end, may never see a penny. By which time, they may well have bankrupted themselves in persuing justice for their daughter over the years. Plenty of others will be doing alright out of it though!


This is why I am 100% in favor of creating a discretionary fund for the Kercher family that they could use as they wish. Fast Pete's non-profit website might be the best place to lodge the fund. I know Rob from days of old looked into that possibility, but I don't know what came of it. Is there any way some of our posters who actually live in the UK could coordinate with Meredith's school and possibly someone in her family to get that set up quickly?

After all, this is the giving season. I think everyone in my family would be supportive of a gift in their name to a fund like this one.

Does anyone out there have any ideas about how to go about this?
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:35 pm   Post subject: Excellent Article   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
I've got a post up on Fast Pete's truejustice.org site about the latest development.


Excellent article Skep and I shall be commenting over there on it very shortly.

It would appear that Candace Dempsey has only just within the last few minutes become aware of the film, but with her very first post on the development she is already firefighting for the home team. According to Candace...'but it was only a 5 minute appearance!'

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:49 pm   Post subject: Re: That favorite poem is O8: A Violation that Needs Reporting   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
For anyone who wants go there, cherchez has written a really moving comment on Candace's blog about what it is like to lose a sister to cancer and the many ways in which this event (which many of us have seen up way too close), as horrible as it is, differs from what happened to the Kerchers. She doesn't speak for them, of course, but she shows a remarkable ability to emotionally imagine their pain without ever presuming to understand it.

Then there's Oceania the Apologist, with her usual sensitive commentary, this time about all of us whiners who think the film thing was a bad idea. We're such sissies!

Quote:
Posted by oceania8 at 12/11/08 11:25 a.m.

Oh the of horror of it all ! Books and movies about real life stories ! Prisoners involved in a film making excercise ! For all those sensitive souls so shocked and offended by these things - cricket and cucumber sandwiches will be served on the lawn at 3pm sharp and Miss Marples will be giving a reading of her favourite poem.


Well, FYI, the moving post by Cherchez, the one Tufa immediately saw fit to post straight after and pour cold water on, has just been DELETED by Ms Dempsey.

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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:51 pm   Post subject:    

I've just read this post on Candace Dempsey's reader's blog:

Posted by cherchezlafemme at 12/11/08 3:42 p.m.

Wow. I've just come back to see my post deleted.

I know that it posted because Ma'At thanked me for it, and I appreciate that. You know, I hesitated before about mentioning personal information.

Am I hurt? Yes, truthfully, this did hurt me, if you care to know.

I was writing about the single most painful experience of my life, a death that has devastated me, and my family.

Candace, you've deleted me before and I've let it go. But this was very emotional for me to even discuss this. By just deleting it, honestly it feels like a slap in the face to my suffering and to my loss. How would you feel?

CANDACE YOU WROTE:

"So read my actual words. Then comment. If I actually said what you are criticizing me for, then I'll let it stand."
........................................................
CANDACE, REALLLY!!!!!I AM NOT CRITICIZING YOU. What part of what I wrote about my thoughts on loss was criticizing YOU? I thought I was validating how dreadful your loss,and mine was and at the same time saying, I GET IT!! Our losses are beyond words.

It was more about what I learned from my experience and how people's perceptions can be from words we use. I wrote that I think you and I could probably empathize with our equivalent experiences. BUT-YOU WERE NOT THE FOCUS OF MY POST.

The focus was that as HORRIFIC as our experiences are, and I do feel that a part of me has died. I imagine you do too. As HORRIFIC as our experiences are...it can even be worse than what we went through. Is it wrong to reflect how truly awful it is for the Kerchers? Other people may NOT think it's worse, and that's ok. I was only stating my opinion, and experience that I think I and my family was spared additional agony that the Kerchers have to deal with.

I guess it's more about how we word things that may affect people at times of grief.

Please, take a moment and read my words, too! I am not accusing you of anything and am a little shocked and stunned that you think that!!!! It is not what I'm thinking.

I have read your policies and think that I am abiding by the rules. I am a polite person. Please be polite back. If I have somehow said the wrong thing, bring it to my attention. Because it wasn't my intention.


The only thing that surprises me is that cherchezlafemme still posts there. He's been ridiculed by funnycat, accused of being an imposter and had numerous posts deleted.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:55 pm   Post subject: I didn't inhale   

Michael wrote:

Quote:
It would appear that Candace Dempsey has only just within the last few minutes become aware of the film, but with her very first post on the development she is already firefighting for the home team. According to Candace...'but it was only a 5 minute appearance!'


Yeah, and the vibrator was just a teeny little thing, the size of a triple-A battery.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:57 pm   Post subject: Birds of a feather flock together   

Tara wrote:

Quote:
She also stated that people would be surprised to hear who her "sources" are. Her attempt at being mysterious certainly will never prompt me to ever buy her book.


Expanding on the hypothesis that Frank had been using his connections to movie business for delivering his latest “scoop” (the 'Amanda interview'), I wonder if the moviemakers could also have been the mysterious ‘sources’ IW bragged about not so long ago. It seems that people that are participating in this for fame or money bond easily together. They must be sole-mates. The silence on IW’s blog - since the announcement of Amanda’s acting in a prison movie – has been deafening. Whilst IW was probably busy conferring with Frank about their next move, their ‘sources’ were sent scurrying in different directions. The reaction of lawyers and politicians to a possible film screening has been overwhelmingly negative. All of the above is my personal opinion, of course. I’m too afraid of IW’s legal advisors (CD/IW said: “I also have easy access to legal help” ) :).


Last edited by guermantes on Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:02 am   Post subject: Poor Cherchez, all that emotion got crushed   

TM wrote:

Quote:
The only thing that surprises me is that cherchezlafemme still posts there. He's been ridiculed by funnycat, accused of being an imposter and had numerous posts deleted.


I can't believe that post was deleted. Why? It was thoughtful, heartfelt and very respectful. I cried when I read it. It also contained some very helpful information for people who are preparing for the loss of a loved one to cancer.

I guess Candace is so taken with the idea that she can relate to Meredith and Stephanie in a special way because of her own experience that she can't bear the idea that others might also. At least Cherchez recognized what is unique and different in the Kerchers' case. That may be why it had to be deleted.

I am beginning to think that Candace is just another classic narcissist. There is no cure for that.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:05 am   Post subject: Deletes   

I know exactly what's coming. Candace is going to use the excuse that Cherchez put caps within her post.

There are good Moderators and bad Moderators. A good Moderator knows that a good many posts may infringe upon some rule sometimes, but depending on the post itself and its context will also use 'Moderator discretion'...Dempsey has no understanding of this concept and if ever there was a post that required discretion it was Cherchez's. She's very upset about the deletion and I don't blame her. Instead of Moderator discretion, Dempsey instead has 'Moderator blindness' , whereby she fails to see transgressions in all posts that serve her personal agenda. One approach, 'Moderator discretion', is even handed, the other, Moderator blindness, is not. They mark the difference between a good Moderator and a bad one.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:14 am   Post subject: Deletes   

Cherchez'a upset post about her post being deleted, as posted up by TM, has also just now been deleted by Dempsey.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:30 am   Post subject: Bring me the head of Cherchez La Femme   

Michael wrote:

Quote:
I know exactly what's coming. Candace is going to use the excuse that Cherchez put caps within her post.


Actually, Michael, it would be better if you were right. I just went to check after seeing TM's post, and found this:

Quote:
Cher-Chez, I am sorry. I'd be happy to explain if you want to email me.
And thank you for explaining. I'm glad that you did not mean your remarks to be hurtful and I honestly believe you did not. And I also feel very bad about your own loss.
Quote:
But you did upset people in the family who felt that you were lecturing them and making light of their loss.

Again, I'm sure that you meant to do no harm. I would be happy to discuss it with you offline.


I guess this really is a family blog Candace is operating. I assume that by "the family" she means people in her own family. This is hogwash. There was nothing in that post which made light of anyone's loss. Either Candace is rationalizing here because she doesn't want to admit the real reason she deleted the post, or people in her family are also unable to read properly and prefer instead to fly off the handle and go after people they perceive as hostile to the cause.

And why is Cherchez perceived in this way? Because she (TM, you seem to think she is a man, I don't know) was accused of being someone else the first time she posted, possibly by overly-sensitive people in "the family," and has never really recovered. In addition, she added insult to injury -- and I have to believe that is one fragile, over-inflated ego we're talking about -- by having some kind of medical background. That didn't go over well with the resident scientist, who tried but failed miserably to discredit Cherchez on that front.

What did you say the other day, Jools about the word "tufa"? That it is slang in Italian for the sound made by a mafioso's gun? Because speaking of insensitive, Tufa's reply to Cherchez's nice post was ice. I guess Tufa also felt that she was being lectured and didn't like that. In addition to family, who besides Frog-y and Yummi post on that blog? It seems that everyone else who tries gets run off. Talk about a Mafia! Mamma mia!
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:05 am   Post subject: Too favourable to the Kercher family   

I don't know but my money would be on that the reason the hormonal one has deleted the post of Cherchez is because it is too favourable to the Kercher family's plight and what they are going through.

In talking about ones own experience of death within ones family, in which a lot of people have experience of including myself - I believe she feels the spotlight has shifted from Knox (the victim in their eyes) and onto the suffering Kercher family - and we can't be having that can we?
I do not see any reason whatsoever to delete that post, or the one posted above.
The Knox/Mellas axis have an unhealthy influence on that blog bordering on in this case, evil.
All in all a truly despicable act from that awful individual, whichever way you look at it and whichever way she dresses it up after the fact.
Absolutely nauseating.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:27 am   Post subject: Re: Too favourable to the Kercher family   

DeathFish 2000 wrote:
I don't know but my money would be on that the reason the hormonal one has deleted the post of Cherchez is because it is too favourable to the Kercher family's plight and what they are going through.

In talking about ones own experience of death within ones family, in which a lot of people have experience of including myself - I believe she feels the spotlight has shifted from Knox (the victim in their eyes) and onto the suffering Kercher family - and we can't be having that can we?
I do not see any reason whatsoever to delete that post, or the one posted above.
The Knox/Mellas axis have an unhealthy influence on that blog bordering on in this case, evil.
All in all a truly despicable act from that awful individual, whichever way you look at it and whichever way she dresses it up after the fact.
Absolutely nauseating.


I don't think so DF2k...I think it's all about 'Candace'. Here's the real reason for the delete:

Cherchez wrote:
BUT-YOU WERE NOT THE FOCUS OF MY POST.


Just to prove my point, Candace then immediately went on, after the deletions of someone 'elses' pain, to post about 'herself', 'her' loss once again, all under the guise of 'clarification'. Knox may be important to Candace, after all, Knox is Candace's golden goose, but ultimately it's all about 'Candace'.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:37 am   Post subject: Say Abracadabra   

Just say 'Abracadabra' and a new question to Amanda and her answer magically appears on Frank's:

Frank wrote:
Did you use the washing machine on November 2?

I've never used the washing machine. It was always broken so I preferred going to the laundromat where there was the dryer too. I don't know what that stuff was, probably still the stuff Meredith had put in the day before.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:17 am   Post subject: Frank's Lost his Marbles   

Frank has locked his blog and posted the following:

Frank wrote:
True Crime people at their best!
These comments will remain to document what you guys are.
I' talking to people like Brian or Michael. You guys are not ashamed to hang up with such trash?

I guess it's clear now why Steve Huff's kicked you out. Or why you guys are disgusting to everyone.

December 11, 2008 8:34 PM


I'm too tired right now to try and work out just WHO the hell it is that apparently Brian and myself am 'hanging out with' (send your answers on a postcard if 'you' happen to know), or 'who' it is Brian and I am supposed to be responsible for, or why we two personally have been singled out for attack. Maybe I've missed something.

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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:31 am   Post subject: Re: Say Abracadabra   

Michael wrote:
Just say 'Abracadabra' and a new question to Amanda and her answer magically appears on Frank's:

Frank wrote:
Did you use the washing machine on November 2?

I've never used the washing machine. It was always broken so I preferred going to the laundromat where there was the dryer too. I don't know what that stuff was, probably still the stuff Meredith had put in the day before.


Curious. Always broken but Meredith still used it somehow.

Anyway, this confirms that Meredith's clothes have been found in it.

Was it working on Nov 2? Does Amanda dispute that it worked?
If so, who started it?
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:25 am   Post subject:    

I really, seriously think Frank is taking the piss now.
(excuse my language)
He is playing games and also having a snipe at Kermit with the google maps link to the laundry Knox was supposedly never seen at.
He is a fantasist, still reeling from Patrick Lumumba's refusal to grant him an interview and then Mrs Hormones 2007/2008 pulling the book deal on him.

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Offline daisysteiner


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:44 am   Post subject:    

In terms of setting up a fund for the Kercher's, my first advice is ask them if they want it. They may not require funds but may ask instead for something to be set up in Meredith's name, if something isn't already (not aware of anything as yet). Or they may just say thanks but no thanks. I'm not 100% sure how to get in touch with them as my mate was never in touch with family nor knows anyone who was. Sophie Purton is on Facebook if someone would like to send her a very very carefully worded message? Sadly most of Mez's other friends aren't on the 'Book any more, have asked about but I think those in the press (other than Sophie) have removed themselves along with the Kerchers.

The reason Michael, DF2K and Brian have been singled out is because they sign their posts, and the fact that Frank & Candy hate this board and it's affliates with a passion. Anyone trolling the site will pick up on your"verified" names and use them to validate their own shitty comments as the blame is easily placed elsewhere - including people supporting Candace & Frank, not hard to do on Blogger. Stop signing posts would be the best bet, I can pretty much tell when someone from here has posted at Frank's from the writing style. I'm not telling anyone what to do by any means, just my two pence worth of opinion!
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:53 pm   Post subject:    

Hi everyone,
I haven't surveyed the damage at Frank's, and may not bother. In any case, Frank is wrong to state that Steve Huff kicked anyone out or got rid of anyone. The TC board was shut down for other reasons. It certainly won't be the first time Frank has made such erroneous statements. Any informed person will realize that.
There is little you can do when you are singled out by name for abuse except ignore it.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:27 pm   Post subject: For Meredith   

DS wrote:

Quote:
In terms of setting up a fund for the Kercher's, my first advice is ask them if they want it. They may not require funds but may ask instead for something to be set up in Meredith's name, if something isn't already (not aware of anything as yet). Or they may just say thanks but no thanks. I'm not 100% sure how to get in touch with them as my mate was never in touch with family nor knows anyone who was. Sophie Purton is on Facebook if someone would like to send her a very very carefully worded message? Sadly most of Mez's other friends aren't on the 'Book any more, have asked about but I think those in the press (other than Sophie) have removed themselves along with the Kerchers.


Thanks for the feedback, Daisy. I can't say I blame any of them for removing themselves from places where they can be easily reached. Their privacy should be respected but probably often is not. The original idea was to set something up in Meredith's name, like a scholarship or an award.
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Offline daisysteiner


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:32 pm   Post subject:    

It's a great idea Skep but I personally would not want someone to set anything, no matter how well intentioned, up in my dead child's name without my express written or spoken permission. I think whatever is done, regardless of what it is and it's a lovely lovely idea, it needs to be ran past the Kercher's out of courtesey...that's just my opinion and I'm, as always, prepared to be wrong or argused against :D

Has anyone seen today's Times article? If I was Ms Knox I would be excreting bricks about now. It seems she's been convicted by the politicians by the tone of their comments.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 330039.ece
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:57 pm   Post subject: Blog review, part 1   

Michael wrote:
Quote:
Just say 'Abracadabra' and a new question to Amanda and her answer magically appears on Frank's: Frank wrote:
Did you use the washing machine on November 2?

I've never used the washing machine. It was always broken so I preferred going to the laundromat where there was the dryer too. I don't know what that stuff was, probably still the stuff Meredith had put in the day before.


Bolint wrote:

Quote:
Curious. Always broken but Meredith still used it somehow.
Anyway, this confirms that Meredith's clothes have been found in it.
Was it working on Nov 2? Does Amanda dispute that it worked?
If so, who started it?


This raises many questions, actually. The machine was always broken and yet it worked for Meredith. So I guess it wasn't always broken. RS tells us that AK asked for a bag so she could take her dirty laundry home that morning to wash it. Is it true, then, as early reports suggested, that she was seen at the laundromat? Did she put in a load and then go to the cottage for a shower? What about Joe Tacopina's early crime scene analysis, where he accuses the police of sloppy work and cites Meredith and Amanda's clean clothes jumbled together on Meredith's bed? Is that true or was Joe T talking nonsense?

As usual, I'm waiting for this information to be clarified in the courtroom. I'm not sure that AK's responses to any of these questions, presented in this format and gathered using incoherent methods, are worth the blog they are written on. I'm not saying the answers are true or false; I'm just saying they are neither here nor there.

After two cups of coffee, I felt ready to check the blogs. First, Frank's: Among the comments that led to his decision to disable and his erroneous statement about the relationship between Steve Huff and TC, I saw many comments about British men and their sex lives (or lack thereof) that probably were not written by Michael, DF2K or Brian, all of whom are British. These comments seem to be in response to a number of comments about AK's potential future as a prostitute. To me, it just looks like the usual descent into the lower depths that characterizes the nuts on both ends who seem to enjoy coming together over there. Frank's hit-or-miss deletions and conspicuous absence while the nuts spar do not help at all. It becomes a game of chance. Absolutely idiotic comments, both for and against AK, can sit there for hours and hours at a time. And Goofy's timely reminders about what comes out of and sometimes goes into people's bottoms are never deleted. Makes you think somebody has his head up his you-know-what.

Frank has a new entry up on the use of AK's diary in the most recently published book and the controversy over AK's appearence in the film. From what I gather, in the first instance AK is being exploited and in the second case she is not. Go figure.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:12 pm   Post subject: This and that   

DS wrote:

Quote:
It's a great idea Skep but I personally would not want someone to set anything, no matter how well intentioned, up in my dead child's name without my express written or spoken permission. I think whatever is done, regardless of what it is and it's a lovely lovely idea, it needs to be ran past the Kercher's out of courtesey...that's just my opinion and I'm, as always, prepared to be wrong or argued against.


We are in complete agreement. In fact, the reason the idea has stayed put is that approaching the Kerchers for any reason (no matter how well intentioned) just seems inappropriate at this time. The time and opportunity may come, but it would be a mistake to force the issue. I guess wait and see is the best way to approach it.

DS wrote:
Quote:
Has anyone seen today's Times article? If I was Ms Knox I would be excreting bricks about now. It seems she's been convicted by the politicians by the tone of their comments.


This makes everyone look bad. Public monies were used to make this film. The concept is certainly not new or wrong, but the decision to use Knox in the film under the circumstances was wrong. Nobody thought of the Kerchers or of the impact on the trial. If it is true that Knox asked to be in the film, then she has shown bad judgement. Did her parents know about and approve of this? If so, then they and their advisors have failed once again. For anyone who doubted it before, their complaints about being victimized by the media must surely ring hollow.
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Offline daisysteiner


Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:59 pm

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:18 pm   Post subject:    

The more I read that article, the more I think Frank has totally lost the plot and now rues the day he ever set up his blog or indeed the day he got mixed up with totally barking Cook. The last post reads like it has been posted by a crazy person. I'm not going to put any weight onto an interview by a crazy person of a seemingly crazy person. The interview is in broken English and not written like Amanda writes/speaks. There are Christ knows how many pages of diaries, statements and youtube featuring Amanda. You don't need to be into forensic linguistics to work out what is written by AK and what isn't. If AK said a word of what is written on that blog then I will be delivering your presents on a sleigh in a fortnight.
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Offline daisysteiner


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:36 pm   Post subject:    

Hi Skep, I thought we were on the same page but best to check aye! I don't think the Kercher's would be offended if you made a polite well phrased enquiry to a relevant third party, in fact it is a very sweet thing to do, esp considering you never knew Mez personally. The Leeds Uni Politics Dept may know more? Will try and find out if they've set up a bursary or something similar for Meredith. I'd be surprised if they haven't.

The film makes everyone involved look ridiculous. It won't be looked upon favourably by anyone with any sense of decency whether Knox was involved for a three hour solo acting extravaganza or in a blink n you'll miss it cameo. It's just wrong.
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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:19 pm   Post subject: Broken Washing Machine...WHAT???!!!!!   

From Frank's Update:
Quote:
Did you use the washing machine on November 2?

I've never used the washing machine. It was always broken so I preferred going to the laundromat where there was the dryer too. I don't know what that stuff was, probably still the stuff Meredith had put in the day before.


Amanda Knox should consult her MySpace page before making statements like this! Remember how she so kindly shared her flatmate, Laura's very personal encounter with the "WASHING MACHINE REPAIR MAN"?

It's sad to see someone so young losing their memory. Must be all that pot. :P
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:09 pm   Post subject: Never apologize, never explain   

DS wrote:

Quote:
Hi Skep, I thought we were on the same page but best to check aye! I don't think the Kercher's would be offended if you made a polite well phrased enquiry to a relevant third party, in fact it is a very sweet thing to do, esp considering you never knew Mez personally. The Leeds Uni Politics Dept may know more? Will try and find out if they've set up a bursary or something similar for Meredith. I'd be surprised if they haven't.


Thanks, DS, for checking with the Politics Department. OT, but I laughed when I read your reference to "a bursary," (as I'm sure you know, the term is "bourse" in French and scholarship in US English). How clever of you to try yet again to make people think you are British when you have been outed elsewhere. :lol:

DS also wrote:

Quote:
The film makes everyone involved look ridiculous. It won't be looked upon favourably by anyone with any sense of decency whether Knox was involved for a three hour solo acting extravaganza or in a blink n you'll miss it cameo. It's just wrong.


I don't understand why anyone would try and justify this error rather than simply apologizing for any offense it might have caused. Sometimes a simple acknowledgement of error or offence and a brief apology can go a long way towards rectifying a situation. But the never apologize, always justify approach is consistent with the pattern we've been seeing.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:41 pm   Post subject: How NOT to Win Friends and Influence People   

daisysteiner wrote:
The reason Michael, DF2K and Brian have been singled out is because they sign their posts, and the fact that Frank & Candy hate this board and it's affliates with a passion. Anyone trolling the site will pick up on your"verified" names and use them to validate their own shitty comments as the blame is easily placed elsewhere - including people supporting Candace & Frank, not hard to do on Blogger. Stop signing posts would be the best bet, I can pretty much tell when someone from here has posted at Frank's from the writing style. I'm not telling anyone what to do by any means, just my two pence worth of opinion!


And this just in from Frank:

Frank Sfarzo wrote:
It's pathetic, this poor anonymous people who want to criticize and they don't even know things, they don't even have a name.

I even waste my time in answering people who are so useless, so bad that they can't not even show their face or name and have to talk from the dark.
And after you have informed them they even insult you!....

But it seems to me to recognize some amateurs...

I'm gonna answer only to people I know.

December 12, 2008 11:13 AM


Except, those who do have the curtesy to show respect to his site and fellow posters by posting under their names, become the recipients of insults from Frank and of blame for every Tom, Dick, Harry and Troll that decides to post on HIS site as a reward.

Frank shall very soon be finding himself on the end of my retort!

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:55 pm   Post subject: Frank has lost it   

Michael wrote:

Quote:
Except, those who do have the courtesy to show respect to his site and fellow posters by posting under their names, become the recipients of insults from Frank and of blame for every Tom, Dick, Harry and Troll that decides to post on HIS site as a reward.


I tried to warn Frank quite some time ago that it was wrong to make blanket accusations about "TC people" unless he was ready to prove it with IP addresses and the like. I saw posts recently in which people tried to pass themselves off as DeathFish, unfairly and not very convincingly. And the comment from Frank yesterday, blaming you and DF and Brian for posts that included anti-British male insults, was ridiculous.
The fact is that Frank's site has become the favorite hangout for the bottom-feeders from both extreme ends of the spectrum. No wonder it is putrid. I have seen you posting there, signing your name, and taking abuse. If I were your agent, I would advise you to give it up. :)

Michael added:
Quote:
Frank shall very soon be finding himself on the end of my retort!


See above. Maybe the best retort is to put your energy where it matters. It is important to observe, question and criticize everyone who claims to have a stake in this case or a dog in this hunt. But maybe the time has come where it is pointless to do it on their blogs. I just had an email from one of our members saying that Frank had really lost control over there.

He could have chosen a different path in terms of responding to the valid concerns and questions we have raised here in recent months. He seems to have decided instead that anyone who criticizes any aspect of this work is a traitor. And he appears to listen to the idiots who give him all sorts of rubbish. His comment about Steve Huff is just a line fed to him by a "trusted source." He doesn't bother to get the facts straight. How can he expect us to believe him on other matters?
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 8:28 pm   Post subject:    

Hi Skep & Michael,
I must admit it did annoy me a little bit so I reacted and shouldn't have really.
It was the day I deleted my posts from one particular page here as some clown had been copying and pasting them on other blogs - but with much profanity added and passing them off as it was me - but I soon got the said posts removed anyway.

This is not the first time this has happened either.

Regarding Franks blog he does delete comments from other people passing themselves off as me but leaves the associated personal insults directed at me that seem to always come just after the phoney posts.
Rocket science springs to my mind here.

Saying things about my kids who they have never met anyway is just disgusting and lowdown at best, although I just look at it as juvenile behaviour that we are accustomed to from certain elements within the Knox camp.
The thing I find distasteful about Frank (and indeed says it all to me) is that he leaves all these personal insults to stand.
I did ask him several times to simply check the IP's but alas he will not.
This will prove I am right and he is wrong you see, as he even himself posted a mocking response to one of these phoney posts himself, addressing me as "deadfish" just like C Mellas does.
Go figure.

_________________
R.I.P
Meredith Kercher.


Last edited by DeathFish 2000 on Fri Dec 12, 2008 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 8:33 pm   Post subject: Why go there then?   

This from Frog-y in response to Candace's reasoning for deleteing Cherchez's heartfelt post:

Frog-y-rana wrote:
Posted by Frog-y-rana at 12/12/08 5:13 a.m. #228397

Candace said: "My family is finding this whole discussion painful."

Then why use it as part of the promotional spiel for your book?



THE COOK'S SMOG


A very good question and quite right! I asked myself the very same question last night.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 8:47 pm   Post subject: Proof   

DF2k wrote:
It was the day I deleted my posts from one particular page here as some clown had been copying and pasting them on other blogs - but with much profanity added and passing them off as it was me


I wish you'd have told me about that as I'd have done something about it. That's identity theft and that's a CRIME, for which in the USA I believe carries a sentence of 11 years. Frank has told us his site is on US servers so he, his site and those that post there therefore come under US legal jurisdiction.

I will say, deleting your posts is not the way to go. They are your record, your proof. They are what you can refer to and say 'Look, THIS is what I really said and where and when I said it.'

If anything like that happens again, let me know and I'll take action!

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline Jools


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:05 pm   Post subject: The film producer twisted ways   

Dear me, oceania is getting her imported Italian nickers in a twist over at the Cooks table. :lol:

'Posted by oceania8 at 12/12/08 11:46 a.m.

Froggy, Ma'At, Cherchez...

Okay you've all had your say about the host of this blog. It's insulting and rude but you don't seem to get it. On and on you go, post after post, trying to belittle and demean Candace. Pointing out with monotonous regularity where Candace has tripped up, who she deleted that you are so shocked at etc etc. Why don't you all hop off to the blog that treasures all your posts, hangs on your every word and spends most of their time copying and pasting your posts to their blog. I'm sure you would find a much more receptive response to your line of posting over their. Why hang around here and make the atmosphere hostile ? As Candace has said time and time again, you are welcome here as long as you are not insulting her, what part of that don't you understand ? Let's talk about the case not about how we can insult and belittle the host, her journalistic abilities, her family and her choices in how she runs her blog.

Accept it or move on.'
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:14 pm   Post subject: Right on the Money   

Just copying over this excellent post from Candace's by a first time poster before it gets deleted:


Puka Lani wrote:
Posted by Puka Lani at 12/12/08 7:20 a.m. #228427

Monica Guzman wrote:
Dempsey, an Italian American who covered cops and courts for Spokane's Spokesman-Review, was drawn to the mystery both because of a dual fascination with true crime and Italian crime and because of the connections she saw between Kercher's fate and her own life. Dempsey was assaulted on a date as a teen. And like Stephanie Kercher, she, too, knows what it is to mourn the loss of a younger sister.

Candace wrote:
Quote:
I'm re-posting this graph about the Kercher family that I wrote this week in the comments section. It was part of a long post I wrote about the death of my beloved younger sister after years of an agonizing struggle against breast cancer. I said I sympathized with Stephanie Kercher's loss of a cherished sibling. I know that pain. But I never said my sister's death was worse than being murdered. No one could say that.

Candace has said that she is quite pleased about what Monica Guzman wrote above. In her most recent post she attempts to explain why she deleted the posts written by someone who also lost a sister to an agonizing struggle with cancer. These were extremely moving and humane posts. Cherchez managed to move beyond a personal experience and consider the ways in which it differs from the experience of a family (any family) who loses a loved one to murder. Not once in either post did the poster imply that Candace had made the claim she is objecting to above (that her sister's death was worse than being murdered).

I read several posts by people who were unhappy with the (let's face it) inappropriate (but probably well-meaning) comparison Candace allowed to be drawn in Monica Guzman's brief article announcing the book, between her own experience and that of Meredith and Stephanie. Not one of them ever accused Candace of making any such claim (again, that her sister's death was worse than being murdered).

Many people, myself included, have suggested that it is unwise to draw parallels between one's own loss and grief and someone else's--especially in this particular case. We have all known grief and loss; saying that can sound like we are trying to diminish the grief and loss of someone else.

But because we have all known grief and loss, we all know intuitively that comparing ours to theirs, yours to mine, is untenable and leads only to more grief and loss.

Candace, if your family finds this whole discussion painful, then why did you bring it up? Are you saying that your family thinks it's okay for you to talk about its grief and loss but that it's not okay for anyone else to talk about their own or to suggest that maybe you and everyone else should leave the topic off this particular table?

I doubt that anyone read Cherchez's comments as a lecture about their grief or a comment about your late sister. By claiming otherwise or allowing members of your family to hijack your blog and disallow any comments that are not about their grief, you are doing a terrible disservice to them and your readers.

By bringing up the subject of your private grief (and theirs, they're in your family) within the context of the death of Meredith Kercher, you invite this pain on your family. You open up their personal, private experience to the world reading your blog. Please don't blame it on Cherchez.

You have written that the Kerchers have suffered beyond imagination, and many other people have expressed exactly the same sentiment. That is really as far as we need to go. In fact, one of the posters who expressed that sentiment was Cherchez. And you deleted her post!

This makes absolutely no sense to anyone as far as I can tell.

You can always say "it's my blog and I'll do what I want," but I think there are certain things that will cause the blog-reading public to revolt or feel revolted (except maybe your own family members). One of them is deleting posts like Cherchez's, no matter what reason you give. Her private experience with grief is as legitimate as yours.

As for me, I have read this blog and many others for over a year now. This is my first post here, and I will never post again. Watching your deletions of Cherchez's posts and dignity spurred me to write. I found Cherchez's very personal post very touching and informative. I was shocked you deleted it. I too have lost 3 people in 3 years; mother, father and child to CHF, colon cancer and open heart surgery, in that order. I'm not here to detail my experiences, but when someone shares such a personal story like Cherchez did, what an insult to simply erase it!

Good bye and good luck. I'm sorry for the loss of your sister, and wish you and your family a happy holiday season.

"puka lani" = hole to the sky (Hawaiian)



Puka Lani wrote:
Posted by Puka Lani at 12/12/08 7:25 a.m. #228430

P.S. How come nobody will step up and tell Cherchez that you all thought she was Skeptical Bystander, a MAJOR poster about this case?



Ma'At wrote:
Posted by Ma'At at 12/12/08 8:04 a.m. #228438

Puka, you beat me to it. I also read Cherchez's touching and heartfelt post. It would appear you can well imagine my shock that it had been deleted and she had been accused of trying to cause someone pain. I don't think Candace or her family member(s) could have read the same post I did, having, like you, lost close family members to cancer myself; I was moved to tears. I thanked you for your post, Cherchez and I will thank you again. I hope you see it before it gets deleted. Your post in question was thoughtful, heartbreaking and well put. It spoke volumes to me and I would think to anyone who has lost someone to the devastation of cancer. And that is not making light of any other disease at all. Unfortunately, it is just one that has been all too familiar in my life. Your post was brilliant, Cherchez.

And Puka, I never even knew that was a real word. I called my eldest son Puka as a nickname when he was very young (and still sometimes to his embarrassment). No idea where it came from, it just kind of started and stuck. I can hardly wait to tell him it is Hawaiian. Thanks!



Here you go Skep! :)


cherchezlafemme wrote:
Posted by cherchezlafemme at 12/12/08 8:11 a.m. #228441

ALOHA, Puka Lani!
Thank you so much for your comments. You articulated things that a crappy writer like me couldn't put into words.

And THANK YOU for FINALLY ID'ing the poster's name I was accused of impersonating. I don't know Skeptical Person but I can only assume that Skeptical Bystander must be a wonderful person, brilliant, lovable and imho to quote MSNBC's Keith Olbermann, probably, ...
'the BEST PERSON IN THE WOOOOOOOOOOOOORLD!" :-)

Let's see... I'm ALSO picking up that this person is young but also old, a girl who seems like a man, with a medical background that obviously doesn't exist has a reputation here and is accused of "impressing people" with ignorance. OK, yes, actually now that realllllly sounds like me! And now I understand the mix-up!

Actually, I also want to take this opportunity to apologize to Skeptical Bystander wherever you are, poor thing. I don't know what sins you allegedly committed on your own, but you shouldn't get charged with any that I've been accused of!




THE COOK'S SMOG


EDIT: All the above posts have now been deleted!

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES


Last edited by Michael on Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Offline Rhonda


Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 6:23 pm

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Location: Northern California

PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:30 pm   Post subject:    

I am so sick of hearing about Candace...who cares who she deletes, her writing sucks, and everyone knows it. Why read it??? The only ones who will buy her book will be the Knox clan and their supporters. She is not important, she thinks she is, but she's a leach just like Anne, Joe the Taco, Paul the PI and all the other idiots including the film makers. Frank seems to be losing it, not getting his fair share of the bloody pie??? His anger at Patrick was so huge and virile that I asked if Patrick had threatened to sue him, I was immediately deleted. The comment section is so base I can't even wade through it anymore.
My only hope is that justice will prevail and these clowns will fade into obscurity.
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:57 pm   Post subject:    

Rhonda wrote:
I am so sick of hearing about Candace...who cares who she deletes, her writing sucks, and everyone knows it. Why read it??? The only ones who will buy her book will be the Knox clan and their supporters. She is not important, she thinks she is, but she's a leach just like Anne, Joe the Taco, Paul the PI and all the other idiots including the film makers. Frank seems to be losing it, not getting his fair share of the bloody pie??? His anger at Patrick was so huge and virile that I asked if Patrick had threatened to sue him, I was immediately deleted. The comment section is so base I can't even wade through it anymore.
My only hope is that justice will prevail and these clowns will fade into obscurity.


I agree with you Rhonda,

I am also tired of reading about what IW does or does not. Anybody with just a tiny bit of common sense can see she is using double standards when choosing which posts to delete. And except for a few posts that inexplicabily survive the bleaching wave, the rest is just missinformed and biased crap.Pretty much the same can be said about PS, so why bother?
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:58 pm   Post subject: Acting lessons   

Rhonda wrote:

Quote:
I am so sick of hearing about Candace...who cares who she deletes, her writing sucks, and everyone knows it. Why read it??? The only ones who will buy her book will be the Knox clan and their supporters. She is not important, she thinks she is, but she's a leach just like Anne, Joe the Taco, Paul the PI and all the other idiots including the film makers. Frank seems to be losing it, not getting his fair share of the bloody pie??? His anger at Patrick was so huge and virile that I asked if Patrick had threatened to sue him, I was immediately deleted. The comment section is so base I can't even wade through it anymore.
My only hope is that justice will prevail and these clowns will fade into obscurity.


Hiya Rhonda!
I think you're right. It was interesting to read Yummi's posts, as well as Frog-y's, but having to wade through the rest of it is a drag. I happened to see a really nice post there yesterday and recommended that people read it, and that seems to have resulted in histrionics. If I were posting there and my posts were getting deleted, I would just stop. Maybe it doesn't show, but when I post something I put thought, heart and soul into it. I would hate to get deleted.

Certain people have economic interests to defend or to make a bid for, and if it isn't obvious by now for some then it never will be.

I read that part of Frank's post where he yet again says with bitterness that Patrick will make the most money (that bastard!). Too bad your question got deleted. At least it was short, or so it seems. Maybe Frank was worried that Patrick would see it and get ideas. :lol:

As for the comments section on his blog, see what I said above. Something about it being the place for bottom-feeders. It's a waste of time to post anything there.

It is sad that the trial has not yet begun and already the people who have achieved a modicum of fame thanks to this tragedy are worried about who's making money from it and who isn't. I know there's a global recession on, but still. :)

I hope it doesn't sound like I'm making light of the more serious matter at hand. I just want to see justice get a chance to be done. I was just reading the article in Il Messaggero about the movie controversy. There were 50 comments, all in Italian of course. My Italian is not very good, but I was doing quick and dirty translations into French to get a feel for public sentiment. People are generally outraged by this latest attempt to capitalize on Meredith's death. It's good to see that happening. Someone wanted to know why Rudy Guede hadn't been cast in the role of Othello. :)
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:13 pm   Post subject: Heads I win, tails you lose   

Rhonda wrote:
Quote:
I am so sick of hearing about Candace...who cares who she deletes, her writing sucks, and everyone knows it. Why read it??? The only ones who will buy her book will be the Knox clan and their supporters. She is not important, she thinks she is, but she's a leach just like Anne, Joe the Taco, Paul the PI and all the other idiots including the film makers. Frank seems to be losing it, not getting his fair share of the bloody pie??? His anger at Patrick was so huge and virile that I asked if Patrick had threatened to sue him, I was immediately deleted. The comment section is so base I can't even wade through it anymore.
My only hope is that justice will prevail and these clowns will fade into obscurity.


Nicki wrote:
Quote:
I agree with you Rhonda,
I am also tired of reading about what IW does or does not. Anybody with just a tiny bit of common sense can see she is using double standards when choosing which posts to delete. And except for a few posts that inexplicabily survive the bleaching wave, the rest is just missinformed and biased crap. Pretty much the same can be said about PS, so why bother?


Whenever deleting becomes rampant and arbitrary, the blog becomes impossible to read. I found it interesting to read Frog-y, but it has occurred to me lately that it's a bit like watching a chess match between two terribly mis-matched players. One is a master and the other is mediocre; the problem is that the mediocre one gets to impose the rules but doesn't have to follow them and, if she wants, can just kick the board over at any time and send the pieces flying. At first, it is kind of funny but then it just gets old.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:21 pm   Post subject: Call me Lucky Larue   

Michael quoted:

Quote:
Let's see... I'm ALSO picking up that this person is young but also old, a girl who seems like a man, with a medical background that obviously doesn't exist has a reputation here and is accused of "impressing people" with ignorance. OK, yes, actually now that realllllly sounds like me! And now I understand the mix-up!

Actually, I also want to take this opportunity to apologize to Skeptical Bystander wherever you are, poor thing. I don't know what sins you allegedly committed on your own, but you shouldn't get charged with any that I've been accused of!


Ha ha, that's pretty funny. Well, if anyone cares to know I am old in years (52) but fairly immature. I am most definitely a girl, but had tomboy tendencies as a child. As for my medical background, it is pretty thin. I once worked in human resources and communcations for a bio-tech company, but that was back in my youth. Finally, I am sure that I impress most people with my ignorance. I even impress myself on occasion.

I am sure I have committed many sins, and have usually had fun in the process. But as John Hiatt sang, I ain't hurtin' nobody, I ain't hurtin' no one.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:28 pm   Post subject: Bathing caps and other accessories   

Jools wrote:

Quote:
Dear me, oceania is getting her imported Italian nickers in a twist over at the Cooks table.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

And speaking of stylish accessories and undergarments, let's not forget those imported Italian swim caps. Oceans said she had hundreds of them, just like the one Raffaele was allegedly wearing when Rudy saw him at the cottage. :lol:
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:31 pm   Post subject:    

Speaking of Frank, does anyone have any idea how he's funneling his questions to AK?

If he's telling the truth and it isn't via someone in the family, I was thinking it might be the priest.

Seriously, how would one make contact with a prisoner in an Italian jail?

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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:49 pm   Post subject: FWIW   

Just my 2 cents from Seattle! :)

There are 4-5 major blogs covering this case. I think its evident that 2 are pro-defendant and 2-3 focus on justtice for Meredith Kercher.

As the trial draws near, book(s) are signed, movies made, etc., I believe it's important to keep a close eye on ALL blogs. Being an informed poster is what it's all about, isn't it?

Candace Dempsey is writing a book about this subject we are all so passionate about. Shouldn't we watch what happens over at her site? Frog and Yummi (with 2-3 others), are stalwart soldiers forging ahead, seeking the truth and fact checking. They are to be commended. (Even though I miss the frog, he is needed over there right now 8-) )

Pete over at TrueJustice.org is a dynamic presence for the media. Meredith Kercher is very lucky to have such a prolific and accurate supporter of her truth, seeking justice for her family. I've said this before, if you have an idea you feel strongly about, write it down and send it off to him for a blog entry... he edits and adds to make it even better! Skep, I also believe a fund for the Kerchers needs to be investigated right away, and I volunteer to do some deeper research; I will report back.

Frank's joint has denigrated into a sandbox for children learning obscenities. (However, I'm pleased to annouce that I am now included in the "nasty name change" group - I'm now "Scara" and proud of it!) Let them play, but they must be watched as well. We learned a long time ago that people close to the case were watching Frank's place, and you'd think SOME people would have taken notice and toned it down.

Certainly ignorance is bliss, but to me, it's just performing your due diligence and research - like the old saying goes, keep your friends close but...you know the rest!

Scara
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:39 pm   Post subject: Re: Call me Lucky Larue   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Michael quoted:

Quote:
Let's see... I'm ALSO picking up that this person is young but also old, a girl who seems like a man, with a medical background that obviously doesn't exist has a reputation here and is accused of "impressing people" with ignorance. OK, yes, actually now that realllllly sounds like me! And now I understand the mix-up!

Actually, I also want to take this opportunity to apologize to Skeptical Bystander wherever you are, poor thing. I don't know what sins you allegedly committed on your own, but you shouldn't get charged with any that I've been accused of!


Ha ha, that's pretty funny. Well, if anyone cares to know I am old in years (52) but fairly immature. I am most definitely a girl, but had tomboy tendencies as a child. As for my medical background, it is pretty thin. I once worked in human resources and communcations for a bio-tech company, but that was back in my youth. Finally, I am sure that I impress most people with my ignorance. I even impress myself on occasion.

I am sure I have committed many sins, and have usually had fun in the process. But as John Hiatt sang, I ain't hurtin' nobody, I ain't hurtin' no one.


( OT OT ) Actually, with you two apparently so alike I was tempted to nickname her 'Mini Me' :lol: :lol: :lol:



[align=center][/align]

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:55 pm   Post subject: Reading between the lines   

Hi Tara:

Quote:
There are 4-5 major blogs covering this case. I think its evident that 2 are pro-defendant and 2-3 focus on justice for Meredith Kercher.


You are right. It is obvious to everyone who has been following this case.


Quote:
As the trial draws near, book(s) are signed, movies made, etc., I believe it's important to keep a close eye on ALL blogs. Being an informed poster is what it's all about, isn't it?


Most people who are following this case read or at least skim the blogs and boards, and that is a good thing. Nobody has to post anywhere. I have seen the term lurking used to describe the act of reading but not posting, and I don't much like it. I think of it as gathering information, in much the same way one would do in researching any subject.

I think there are at least two stories emerging. One has to do with the brutal murder, the investigation, the trial, attempts to discredit the investigation, etc. There are many competent people out there who can and will tell this story.

The other story is about the race to sign the deals and tell a version of the first story. And this other story will also be told one day. In fact, it is catalogued in real time as we move toward the trial. The gaps, erasures, deletions and revisions are also part of this story, and the interesting thing is that everyone can see them happening in real time.

I noted the other day that all of the elements of this other story are being preserved for posterity. They are part of the public record; everytime something gets erased, it leaves a gap. And you have to pay attention to those gaps in order to understand the whole story. In fact, the identity of the person or people who are writing this other story is not important. What is important is that they have acquired the necessary distance to see what's going on.


Last edited by Skeptical Bystander on Sat Dec 13, 2008 2:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:20 am   Post subject: Making and impact   

Michael posted (a deleted post from the PI reader blog):

Quote:
Puka Lani wrote:
Posted by Puka Lani at 12/12/08 7:25 a.m. #228430

P.S. How come nobody will step up and tell Cherchez that you all thought she was Skeptical Bystander, a MAJOR poster about this case?


Before signing off for the day, I just wanted to say that I was way ahead of the curve when it comes to posting over there. I noticed from day one the tendency to go after people instead of grappling with their ideas and, when all else failed, to resort to name-calling and deletion. Let's not forget that I was called a Human Mud Bath by the hostess. I did not hang around very long as a poster, but at least I chose to leave. I certainly would not have had Cherchez's patience. And what I see today is no different from what we saw a year ago, except that maybe it has gotten worse.

Let's not forget that I was also accused publicly of posting something that I did not and never would post. When that happened, I felt like Josef K, living in the world Kafka describes so well in the Trial.

At Frank's, the situation was different. When the trusted sources started going after me whenever I posted, calling me stupid bitch, septic bog or whatever, I just decided to stop posting. It took awhile, but they finally stopped paying attention to me.

I guess the point I'm making is that we can all see what the ground rules are in other places, and we all have to decide how to respond. In my own case, it has meant not wasting time posting in those places. Pete's blog is a much more effective and objective forum for exposing these and other antics. And best of all, it is making a real impact.
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:49 am   Post subject:    

Amanda makes Variety

.....a flurry of offers poured in from international media outlets eager to buy footage of Knox in the pic.......

Next stop Hollywood.
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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 3:58 am   Post subject: Spaghetti Westerns Anyone?   

Brian,

Thanks for that link to the Variety article by Nick Vivarelli. :)

Judging from the 1 comment posted so far, someone feels that some of the past Itialian "greats" will be "turning in their graves" because this film is being picked apart and nixed from the Batik Film Festival.

How apt that he would pick Sergio Leone, the king of spaghetti westerns well known in the US for, A Fistful of Dollars, For a Few Dollars More, and of course, The Good, The Bad and The Ugly. How could I forget this name as my dad packed everyone in the stationwagon every time the local drive-in movie theater had the triple showing. :lol:

Here's the poster's comment - it made me laugh...
Quote:
Amanda Knox film provokes furor
Submitted by: Sergio Liden
12/12/2008 11:57:26 AM PT

I have the privellage to be named after the greatest director of all time, Sergio Leone. Italy has been a truly cinematic expose, in the films going back to Fellini, and even further back. Film is film. Art is art. Da Vinci is a master who put himself into his work. We are still enthralled by Leone, Fellini, Da Vinci, and those are but just a few of the artists to come out of Italy. For Italians, now, to pick apart a film because of the subject matter, or because of the cast is sad. The past greats of Italy are turning in their graves.


Last edited by Tara on Sat Dec 13, 2008 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline mylady007


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:43 pm   Post subject:    

Amanda's stardom: I don't think I would raise my hand to be in a prison documentary if I were incarcerated on suspicion of murder. Why would you want that to follow you for the rest of your life - especially if you were innocent of the/a crime? "Oh, look! That's me in prison! I was accused of murdering my flat mate."

Maybe she was bored and wanted a new experience.

betty
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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 2:59 am   Post subject: Good Point MyLady Betty!   

Hi Betty, :)

You bring up an excellent observation. You would think the Knox supporters would have nixed the movie making for Amanda for the very reason you stated! Does this mean the production was so secret that the budding actress couldn't tell anyone about this project? It appears they were filming during the September hearings, so perhaps that's why Knox was so giddy in court - singing during breaks, humming and dancing in her chair in front of the Kerchers. She knew she held a big secret about her forthcoming stardom. :roll:


Last edited by Tara on Sun Dec 14, 2008 3:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 3:14 am   Post subject: Corriere Dell'Umbria Today   

Here's an interesting article today. Two U.S. female students in Perugia filed a complaint against 4 Italian men for sexual assault(?). The google translation isn't the best, but you get a pretty good idea of what happened. Here's part of the article where they make comparisons to the Meredith Kercher case:

Quote:
The fact remains that the incident threatens to further accredit the image of Perugia Ibiza style, full of young people, rather than pausing on the books, quite devoted to business, going from pub (where it is not good in some way Morigerati), to nightclubs (where we are locked in unbridled dancing, almost orgiastici), the alleys (where you buy doses of cocaine or other drugs for the more classic "sballo").

An episode that, in some ways, strengthens - indirectly, of course - the reconstruction provided by the attorney (s Giuliano Mignini pm and Manuela Convenient) for the murder of Meredith Kercher. Same environment (the student), probably the same reasons (games motivated erotic), although fortunately a conclusion less severe (compared all'orrendo murder, sticking to the poor Mez).


GOOGLE TRANSLATION

Here's the original Italian:

Corriere Dell'Umbria
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 12:05 pm   Post subject: Of course she isn't mentally ill   

Hi Tara,
You reminded me about Knox singing and humming in open court in front of the victims family whose daughter and sister she is accused of murdering.
She also never had the guts to even look up at them or look any of them in the eye.
Is this the behaviour of someone wrongly imprisoned?
Her family said she sings and hums to relieve stress.
Of course she isn't mentally ill - it's just to relieve stress! what are you? stupid? LOL!!
All I can say is that Knox must have been under enormous stress while eating in the restaurant with the other girls when she suddenly burst out into loud song at the top of her voice.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 7:42 pm   Post subject: Though Frank Spectacles   

The World according to Frank. Through his spectacles,, regarding Amanda and defamation, she is completely innocent, but Patrick is the criminal:

Frank wrote:
Hey, someone interested in the case and not in insulting someone else! Interesting...

Patrick is not a key witness but, for the little he can testify, I agree with you that his relations with the media make him not really reliable.

As for the slander against him, the subjective elements tell us that Amanda is not punishable for that.

Instead HE is VERY punishable for his statements against Amanda, as anyone who says that someone is guilty before a court ruled that.

December 14, 2008 10:30 AM


I will point out, that for balance, having read his posts on the matter, Yummi, an Italian clearly very knowledgable about the Italian legal system and the case, takes the complete opposite view to Frank.

Subjective???

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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:09 pm   Post subject:    

To say Frank is being vindictive regarding Patrick Lumumba would be an understatement.
He's still a tad peeved Patrick requested a fee for an interview.
I wouldn't go as far to say he's being racist though.
I get the impression Patrick must have seen him coming.

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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:18 pm   Post subject: Re: Broken Washing Machine...WHAT???!!!!!   

Tara wrote:
From Frank's Update:
Quote:
Did you use the washing machine on November 2?

I've never used the washing machine. It was always broken so I preferred going to the laundromat where there was the dryer too. I don't know what that stuff was, probably still the stuff Meredith had put in the day before.


Amanda Knox should consult her MySpace page before making statements like this! Remember how she so kindly shared her flatmate, Laura's very personal encounter with the "WASHING MACHINE REPAIR MAN"?

It's sad to see someone so young losing their memory. Must be all that pot. :P



On washing machines:

On the 9/10th Novemeber 2007 there were a flurry of reports stating that a man and a woman were seen "acting suspiciously" at the local laundromat.

This can be RULED OUT as being Amanda since these sightings occurred around 13:30pm on the 2nd November.

We now know that at that time Amanda was well busy with the police "discovering" Meredith's body.



On the 19th November 2007 there were a flurry of reports giving a possible reason for the clothes found in the cottage washing machine.

Those reports say that "many of those clothes" belonged to Meredith. The suspicion was that because the was no blood anywhere on Meredith's legs her jeans had been taken off AFTER she was killed and put into the washing machine for a wash as part of the crime scene staging.

I would suggest that Meredith's friends will know if the jeans found on the floor next to her body were those she was wearing when she visited them on the 1st November.

It's strange that Raffaele made such a point that she was wearing Giacomo's jeans on the afternoon of the first. I'll bet that they were the jeans on the floor.
I'll bet that Meredith's friends will say she was wearing the jeans found in the washing machine.

Of course I have been known to lose bets, BUT.....

IF that was a wash put into the machine by Meredith, then her fingerprints will be on the controls, on/off switch and the door handle of that machine on top of any others.
If those controls were wiped clean.......??????
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Offline Jumpy


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:32 pm   Post subject:    

Hi Brian,
I think Raffaele said the jeans belonged to an old boyfriend of Meredith's from back home in England. I also thought it was really strange for him to remember this fact when he couldn't remember anything else from that day. Initially I thought it might have something to do with some animosity between Amanda and Meredith. Perhaps noticing something Mererdith was wearing, chatting her up, and thus pissing off Amanda. Not saying that would be only reason for a blowup of course, just another element of jealousy Amanda probably harbored towards Meredith. THEN I sort of changed my mind, because of the blood, and the clothes. Are those jeans really what Raffaele claims? Or are they another staging element? I hope Meredith's friends have a good idea of what she was wearing that night.
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Offline Fast Pete


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:36 pm   Post subject: Re: Though Frank Spectacles   

Michael wrote:
The World according to Frank. Through his spectacles,, regarding Amanda and defamation, she is completely innocent, but Patrick is the criminal:

Frank wrote:
(Patrick) is VERY punishable for his statements against Amanda, as anyone who says that someone is guilty before a court ruled that. [/i]


Very punishable?! Yeah, good luck on that ever flying. Let's add it to... Threatwatch!!

What a list already exists!
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:03 pm   Post subject: Jeans   

Brian wrote:
Quote:
It's strange that Raffaele made such a point that she was wearing Giacomo's jeans on the afternoon of the first.


Jumpy wrote:
Quote:
I think Raffaele said the jeans belonged to an old boyfriend of Meredith's from back home in England.


Jumpy's right. In the prison document he wrote, Raffaele says that when Meredith left the cottage on 1 November she was wearing jeans that belonged to her old boyfriend back in England.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:25 pm   Post subject:    

Steve Huff wrote a short piece on AK's most recent foray into cinema on his True Crime Report:

http://tinyurl.com/68n76d

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Offline Kermit


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:48 pm   Post subject: Clarity of thought   

Shame for Candace that she cut off the interchange between Charlie and Frog-y concerning evidence that is going to court (the deletion machete slashed away there).

We've seen that discussion over there of anything mainstream which could even remotely go against Amanda is forbidden, categorised in her euphemistic terminology as "conspiracy theory", even though that is the evidence that judge, judicial jury, prosecutor and defence teams will be dealing with.

I don't agree with Charlie on much of his analysis, but in spite of Candace, when dialogue has been permitted, it has been useful to clarify some of the evidence which is there. For example, the image of the very visible blood stain on the drain does seem to be on the drain to the bidet. Over the weekend I went closely over the Dateline show and these screen shots appear to confirm that (ie. Panorama - which I fear somehow in the SPI blog falls into another euphemistic category of obscure regional press - got their caption wrong).



That doesn't actually change a whole lot, as we always knew that in addition to blood/DNA mixes in the sink area, that there were also such mixes in the bidet.

And there are still the samples in the sink area. For example, in this photo of the sink, the Q-tips box is another point where mixed blood/DNA was found:



Last edited by Kermit on Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:02 am   Post subject: Blood stains in the bidet   

Kermit wrote:

Quote:
Shame for Candace that she cut off the interchange between Charlie and Frog-y concerning evidence that is going to court (the deletion machete slashed away there).
We've seen that discussion over there of anything mainstream which could even remotely go against Amanda is forbidden, categorised in her euphemistic terminology as "conspiracy theory", even though that is the evidence that judge, judicial jury, prosecutor and defence teams will be dealing with.


Maybe Candace hopes that her deletions will somehow alter reality. I doubt they will, but they certainly are not helping her to establish a relationship of impartiality or fairness.

Kermit added:

Quote:
I don't agree with Charlie on much of his analysis, but in spite of Candace, when dialogue has been permitted, it has been useful to clarify some of the evidence which is there. For example, the image of the very visible blood stain on the drain does seem to be on the drain to the bidet. Over the weekend I went closely over the Dateline show and these screen shots appear to confirm that (ie. Panorama - which I fear somehow in the SPI blog falls into another euphemistic category of obscure regional press - got their caption wrong).


I don't think it changes much, since there are also mixed blood stains in and around the sink. And regardless of where the blood stains are (a) Amanda has stated that they were visible to her and (b) it has been confirmed that they are not composed of menstrual blood.

Thanks for checking the photo and letting us know.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:53 am   Post subject: Patrick's evidence   

Frank on Patrick:

Sunday, November 25, 2007

The Day of the Jackal


Who has won the most exclusive auction for Patrick?
The English thought that they had been the first to come forward. But Patrick’s representatives had already contacted an Italian station that offered 20.000 € even before he got out of jail.
A journalist from the Sunday Express however, has no problems throwing out a 25.000 figure for Patrick or 35.000 for Patrick + wife.
And so begins the race between two; with the Mail on Sunday, the offer rises to 70.000 €.
Only two sentences are authorized when he gets out of jail; two phrases that we had already expected: “I’m fine thanks” and “I thank God”. These two phrases repeatedly expressed by Patrick.

Patrick’s representatives however, claim to have contact with Max Clifford, the King of PR. The English seem to bite and the price rises to 150.000. But then they get bored; also because his declarations were released before today, the day that both “Sundays” are issued. Also, Clifford doesn’t respond. He’s not interested. Surely it was only a bluff. And so Patrick’s calling price crumbles.
Either way, at the end he came out on Mail on Sunday for 70.000 €.....


Perugia-Shock

Frank seems to know a lot about Patrick's business.





Patrick on Amanda:

I fired Foxy Knoxy for hitting on customers: Patrick Lumumba reveals why he was framed over Meredith's murder

25 November 2007


It was nearly midnight in Le Chic and the three-floor club was heady with excitement.

The crammed dance floor was a flurry of bodies and the queue for the speciality rum cocktails was growing by the second.

Yet in the middle of it all sat barmaid Amanda Knox, whispering sweet nothings to her latest conquest, her chest pressed against his, their mouths just millimetres apart and seemingly unaware of the chaos ensuing around her.

It was at that moment that the club's owner, Patrick Lumumba, finally realised he'd had enough and told the brash blonde American he wouldn't be requiring her services any more.

For four weeks he had quietly tolerated her wild mood swings, crass sexual innuendo and complete unwillingness to do any work so terminating her employment was, on the face of it, a wise decision.

It was also, tragically, one that Patrick believes came close to costing him his family, his business and his freedom.

For just a week later, he believes, 20-year-old Amanda took her revenge by framing the 38-year-old Perugian club owner for the murder of her British friend, Meredith Kercher, whose half-naked body was discovered in a pool of blood by police on November 2.

Amanda painted him as a violent sexual predator who had raped the 21-year-old student before savagely slitting her throat and left him to languish in jail for a fortnight for a crime he didn't commit....

Now, in an exclusive interview with The Mail on Sunday, Patrick reveals his feelings towards the infamous "Foxy Knoxy", and tells how the seemingly quintessential American turned into a tormented monster eaten up by anger towards both himself and Meredith.

"She was angry I was firing her and wanted revenge," he says. "By the end, she hated me.
But I don't even think she's evil.

To be evil you have to have a soul. "Amanda doesn't. She's empty; dead inside. She's the ultimate actress, able to switch her emotions on and off in an instant. I don't believe a word she says. Everything that comes out of her mouth is a lie. But those lies have stained me for ever.

"She tried to play the race card. She thought that by pointing the finger at a black person she'd distract attention from herself. She used me as a scapegoat.

"I've never had so much as a fine for not paying a bus ticket before. But now I've been branded a cold-blooded murderer."....

"Meredith was a natural charmer, a beautiful girl who made friends easily, and effortlessly received attention wherever she went," Patrick explains, sitting beside his pretty Polish-born girlfriend of six years Aleksandra Kania, 28, and their 19-month-old son, Davide.



"Amanda tried much harder, but was less popular. I didn't realise it at the time, but now I see that she was jealous. She wanted to be the queen bee, and as the weeks passed, it became clear that she wasn't. She hated anyone stealing her limelight ? and that included Meredith."

Patrick, who moved from his native Congo 15 years ago when his family opened a chain of clothes stores in Italy, met Amanda and Meredith, both exchange students at Perugia's University for Foreigners, in late September.

"I'd just opened Le Chic and one of my friends said he knew an American girl who needed work, so I told her to come along to the bar."

As Amanda, a teacher's daughter educated at a Roman Catholic school, entered his bar that evening, dressed in flimsy trousers and full of bravado, he decided she'd fit the bill immediately.

"She was open and bubbly, and said she'd bring in more customers because she knew everyone. I didn't find her attractive, but she was confident about the way she looked. It was almost as if she didn't need to wear revealing clothes ? she thought she was sexy enough as she was."

The English Language student from Seattle then introduced Patrick to her new flatmate Meredith...."Her Italian was poor, but she smiled and commented on the special make of vodka I kept behind the bar. She said she'd used it herself instead of rum when she was a barmaid making mojitos back in Britain," he remembers.

"I was surprised she was English as her skin was so dark. She told me she had Indian ancestry.

"As she and Amanda headed off to chat with the rest of their group of girlfriends, I thought how close-knit they all seemed. It was a Latin and reggae night, and they danced happily, attracting the attention of all the guys around them."

The following day he employed Amanda to collect glasses for two shifts a week from 10pm to 3am. But he soon realised she was more interested in making herself available to his male customers than making herself useful at the bar.

"Every time I looked round she was flirting with a different guy," he says.

"I'd tell her off, she'd smile sweetly and apologise, and be back at it within five minutes. She'd put her mouth so close to her conquests it looked like they were kissing.

"Sometimes, when I tried to get her back to work, the men would become rowdy. Once I was told to mind my own business and butt out of Amanda's.

"She was always causing trouble. Even my girlfriend thought she was strange. Whenever she met her she'd death stare her and turn her nose up. I don't think she was jealous ? she never came on to me. She just felt so threatened by other women."

Economics graduate Aleksandra adds: "Amanda was so cold. She seemed like a girl who would do anything to get her way, and her man. If she had wanted Patrick I'm sure she wouldn't have thought twice about pushing me aside."

As Amanda's flirtatious behaviour continued, Patrick was faced with a dilemma, knowing that to sack her could generate as much negative word-of-mouth publicity as bringing her in had intended to create.

"I decided to put up with it," he says.

"Even though she'd ask to leave early all the time and got into work late so she could call her American boyfriend. She never told me his name but they seemed very much in love. He sent her presents and she giggled when she mentioned him."

It was a couple of weeks before Patrick met Sollecito, a doctor's son from Southern Italy, when he came into Le Chic.

"He was with a couple of friends, drinking rum and pear juice," he says. "After about four rounds I spotted Amanda flirting with him. Needless to say, I wasn't surprised."

What he was surprised to discover, however, was that she had started to date Sollecito. "I'd always thought her flirting was harmless," he says. "But I couldn't believe she was two-timing her American boyfriend."

He next saw Meredith at a party he threw in the club for his employees a couple of days later. "She made everyone two rounds of her special mojitos," he says.

"She was sparkly and cheery and lifted everyone's spirits. I bumped into her again in town soon after. I asked her if she wanted to have a spell behind the bar when I next had a female DJ playing, as a kind of ladies' night.

"She jumped at the chance, although she'd stopped coming into Le Chic, and I heard she wasn't hanging around with Amanda much either. I wasn't surprised. The two couldn't have been more different."


Amanda, meanwhile, was becoming increasingly erratic. "Her moods started swinging from docile and lazy to hyperactive and flighty.

"I knew she smoked cannabis and it was impossible to predict which one she'd be.

"I told her I'd asked Meredith to come and work for me and her face dropped and there was a big silence. Then she said, 'Fine,' and stropped off. I knew then she was extremely jealous of Meredith. She obviously thought she was invading her territory."

By Tuesday, October 30, his patience ran out. He told Amanda she could carry on handing out club flyers, but could no longer work in the bar.

"She looked at me blankly and walked away," he says.
"The club was busy and I didn't see her again that evening."

The next day Amanda attended a Hallowe'en party at the club, knocking back the free red wine. "She was all over two American boys," Patrick says. "There was no sign of Sollecito and I didn't see her leave."

At 3am he locked up and went on to another club, where he bumped into Meredith. "I mentioned the idea of her working for me again," he says.

"She smiled sweetly and said she couldn't wait, and she'd bring all her friends back to my club for me." That was the last he heard of either girl, until 6pm on Saturday November 3, when a couple of friends walked into his club.


"They asked me if I'd heard that Amanda's English friend had been murdered. And when they said she was the dark-skinned girl, my heart stopped." He called Amanda, who quietly confirmed that Meredith was dead.

"I expected her to be distraught, hysterical and sobbing," he says. "Surely, just because they'd grown apart didn't mean she wouldn't care?

"But instead she sounded weird. Her tone was completely flat and she sounded calm and unaffected. She said she was talking to the police and hung up. I was shaken and sick with sadness. Things like this just didn't happen in Perugia."

Over the next couple of days the murder stunned the town's 162,000 inhabitants. "It was all we could talk about, and we were all subdued," says Patrick, who handed out flyers for a candlelit vigil in her memory.

"Everyone became tense and suspicious. Everyone except Amanda, who'd gone into a kind of autopilot mode. I saw her a couple of times and all she talked about was the police, and how stressful the ordeal was for her.".... "It was outside the university library, on the Monday after the murder," he says. "Despite all my misgivings of her, I wanted to give her comfort and support.

"I told her I was so sorry about Meredith. She seemed completely normal. But she had a nasty look in her eye and simply said I had no idea what it was like to be probed by police for hours on end......



The Mail on Sunday

Apologies to the Mail for abusing their copyright, but.....

It's worth reading again what Patrick had to say on his release. It must be similar to the story he told the police.

What's obvious is that Meredith had no need to tell Amanda about Patrick's job offer. Patrick had told Amanda himself that Meredith was replacing her.

Also of note. Amanda spent Halloween at Le Chic without Sollecito although she left at some unknown hour. I take it that the two Amarican students have been interviewed about that. May have implications re Kokomani's uncertain evidence.

Meredith was out late on Halloween. It was after 3am when Patrick spoke to her in another club.




More to follow on Frank and Patrick.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:43 pm   Post subject: Adding to the confusion   

Brian wrote:

Quote:
Also of note. Amanda spent Halloween at Le Chic without Sollecito although she left at some unknown hour. I take it that the two Amarican students have been interviewed about that. May have implications re Kokomani's uncertain evidence.



It is interesting to compare this account with what Raffaele wrote in his diary. As a reminder, this diary was sold to La Nazione and no one has verified whether or not it is written in Raffaele's hand and/or signed by him. In other words, its value is uncertain at this point.

We leave from 31 October, day in which I went to the graduation of Francisco
(...) and stayed at Paolo's house (...) and subsequently I met with Amanda. I passed the day with her having supper and then she went downtown with her face painted like a cat. I went out subsequently painting my face making an abstract figure. I took a stroll downtown and after I met again with Amanda. From there we returned home right away and we passed the night watching a film.

In the morning we rose around 10:00-11:00 and I wanted to sleep again,
therefore Amanda went to her house saying that she would wait for to me to lunch. I caught up with her around 14:00 and Meredith was also there, that poor girl, she said that she had already eaten. So I prepared the lunch for us both, she so setting herself to play the guitar meanwhile Meredith was preparing to go out.The cute thing that I remember is that Meredith wore a pair of jeans
from man that were her ex-boyfriend's in England. She left hastily
near 16:00 not saying where she was going. Meanwhile Amanda and I
remained there until 18:00 approximately and began to smoke cannabis.
From this moment come my problems, because I have confused memories.

Also notice that Raffaele claims he and not Meredith had lunch with Amanda on the afternoon of November 1. I point this out because in the NBC Dateline program, it is claimed that Amanda and Meredith had lunch together on November 1. This would be according to Amanda, who made this statement via her lawyers in an "interview" published by Meo Ponte. Several months after the fact, the Knox/Mellas camp began contesting this interview, saying AK had never spoken to the press. Candace Dempsey then started calling it a "fake interview." I doubt this was to pave the way for Frank's scoop (and "fake interview" if ever there was one, in the sense that it was presented as verbatim when it could not have been).
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Offline DLW


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:59 pm   Post subject:    

From the Fondazione Italiani, the Court of Assizes is in the process of picking the popular and alternate judges.


‘Dec 16 2008 - Extracts the names of about fifty people among whom will be chosen from the six judges popular, more alternates, who will compose the Court of Assizes of Perugia where from January 16 is scheduled for trial for murder of Meredith Kercher. The president Giancarlo Massei and the court side, which will appear in front of Amanda Knox and Raffaele call, will guide the Court.
Within the next five days sorteggiate people will be convened and, based on extraction and their availability and compatibility with 'office will be the composition of the bench. The extraction took place this morning in the presence of the president Massei. Ultimo aggiornamento ( martedì 16 dicembre 2008 ) Last Updated (Tuesday 16 December 2008)’
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:37 pm   Post subject: A day in a dense table...   

I can’t help feeling sorry for that Yummi, he says one thing and both Cook and Funny kitchen-helper, understand whatever they want but usually the opposite of what he is trying to tell them, no matter how many times he tries somehow doesn’t get through. It must be something in their blood and oxygen doesn’t quite reach the brain.

Yesterday he said this in replying to the cook:

Posted by Yummi at 12/15/08 6:28 p.m.
(Funnycat, you have to remember that when it comes to Amanda, politicians in Italy have also gone out of their way to visit her, to interview her etc. I believe only relatives, priests, politicians and professors can get in.) 

”About this comment by Candace (sorry I pasted it wrongly in the previous). Not the "politicians", but 1) the members of the national Parliament and 2) members of Regional Parilaments, are the people's representatives who have the right to enter any prison without limitations. They have a special "pass" and the wadrians and proison police have to open and let them in immediately. 
The MP make visits inside prisons and to the inmates very frequently, so on this issue this was not a special favour to Amanda Knox. The only rule is that they can talk with inmates about anything but not about their judicial cases. 
Priests do not have any pass to enter the prisons, except the ones who volunteer permanently there, not more than the other personnel engaged working in the facility.”

Kitchen-helper says:
Posted by funnycat at 12/15/08 7:57 p.m.
Yummi, you are right to remind me that Amanda has received some kindnesses. Right now would be a good time for a kindly word from someone on high. 

I think that she has spent a year being a model girl, and that she is likely very kind to those around her, as that has been what all who knew her well say of her.

Cook t 12/15/08 10:37 p.m. Says:
Yummi, the politicians who have visited Amanda have been kind in that they said fairly pleasant things about her afterward. That is rare when you are a prisoner anywhere. However, I am sure that like the film director we discussed yesterday, they were also aware of her star power and how that might get them into the news.

By the way, we cannot exactly boast of our politicians in America.

Posted by Yummi at 12/16/08 10:41 a.m.
(Yummi, you are right to remind me that Amanda has received some kindnesses. Right now would be a good time for a kindly word from someone on high.) 
”
Well, I didn't say that politicians were kind with Amanda.
I said quite the opposite:

"The MP make visits inside prisons and to the inmates very frequently, so on this issue this was not a special favour to Amanda Knox".

AK did not recieve any favourable treatment by politicians. 
A person who comes in visit to an inmate, won't say anything bad about him, usually. Otherwise he wouldn't go to visit him, I think. Or he won't be received by the inmates a next time. 

About a "high word", well it is very dangerous if somebody tries to influence directly the judiciary on a political level, as we said many times on this blog.” 

:lol: :lol:
Yes Yummi, you can explain to them how things are or how life works in Italy till the cows come home, but they will still understand the opposite of what you trying to say. These previous cookery amateurs… now believe themselves to be experts on true crime, specially Italian crime, Italian culture, politics, judiciary, geography. Also best judges of Italian character and physique, etc., and oh yes, Fellini. Yummi, you are one patient man!
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:58 pm   Post subject:    

Skep,

This is for you. Paris Match article:

'When the actress becomes deadly Company.'

http://tinyurl.com/57fld2
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:04 pm   Post subject:    

Hi Jools,
Thank you for that little snippet from the spurious cookery blog, it afforded me yet another chuckle.
Yummi must sometimes think he's banging his head into the wall, perhaps he should try humming and singing to relieve his frustration as it seems to do the trick for Amanda Knox.
On the whole I think they have a rather inflated sense of importance regarding their accused killer and sex criminal friend.
I can see the cookery blogger in years to come like Miss Havisham from great expectations, driven mad waiting in the room she has prepared for Knox's coming home party and everything is untouched and covered in cobwebs and there's boxes full of unsold books lining the walls.

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Meredith Kercher.
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Offline Kermit


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:06 am   Post subject: JUSTICE SEATTLE-STYLE   

Well I guess that Frog-y (and others, I'm sure) will have no further opportunities to try to inject some ideas into the reader blog on the SPI.

Shame, I always thought that a vigorous, heterogeneous debate, with new ideas from new posters, is what makes Internet a most unique and rich townhall.

Of course, new ideas can be dangerous to those who want no new ideas.



Anyways, I guess the positive side is that that frees time for other pursuits and analysis which contribute more to the effort of understanding this crime.

What was the Simon and Garfunkel song ....?

"Gee but it's great to be back home,
Home is where I want to be-e-e-e-e-e
I've been on the road so long, my friend
that if you came along I know you couldn't disagree
it's the same old story,
Everywhere I go
I get slandered,
Libeled,
I hear words I never heard in the bible ...."
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:19 am   Post subject:    

Thanks Jools!
Here's a very quick and dirty translation of the Paris Match piece. Notice that some of the crime details are wrong (which is understandable, since they have not been covering the crime and got interested in this because of the culture/show biz aspect) and forgive me if I don't have Hamlet's soliliquy quite right. I don't have time to look it up right now, so mine is from memory, aided by the French.

Under normal circumstances, acting in a film appears to be a worthwhile way for prisoners to reintegrate themselves into society. But when your name is Amanda Knox, this can pose a problem. Amanda Knox, 21 years old, is a name that one does not forget in Italy. For a year now, she has been nicknamed the “Dark Lady from Seattle.” And not without cause: the young American woman has been indicted in the savage murder of her roommate, Meredith Kercher, 21 years old, a young British woman who had come to Perugia, Italy on the ERASMUS exchange program. On November 2, 2007, police found her dead in her bedroom. There was blood everywhere. The young woman had been drugged, sexually assaulted and beaten. Rapidly, three people became the primary suspects: Amanda, a young woman with an extreme personality, fond of all sorts of vices; her boyfriend; and one of their friends. The trio is alleged to have killed the British student when she refused to take part in some kind of sexual game. A sordid story that has shaken Italy.
Since she was arrested, Amanda has proclaimed her innocence, even though her DNA has confounded her. She is currently being held in custody in Perugia while awaiting trial. But Amanda seems to be doing fine, judging from the film she has just finished taking part in along with 11 other inmates—the cast of "The Last City," which was shot in her prison by director Claudio Carini. A 47-minute work in which we see Amanda recite verses from Shakespeare, the Portuguese writer Fernando Pessoa and the Spanish playwright Pedro Calderon de la Barca. Politicians wondered if "Amanda Knox is in a summer camp, where she can try her hand at acting, or is she in prison, accused of the atrocious murder of a young woman her own age?" (Maurizio Ronconi, a member of parliament).

The screening is cancelled
In one particular scene, Amanda recites the famous soliloquy of Hamlet: "To be or not to be, that is the question. Whether ‘tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune or to take arms against a sea of troubles and by opposing end them." This was a bit too much for public opinion, which cried scandal and feels that the memory of Meredith has been sullied.

The film was to have been screened on Sunday at the Perugia Film Festival. But the Regional Council of Umbria decided otherwise, and managed to get the screening canned. Laura Allegrini, an elected politician of the center right, was one of those who spoke up: "I can accept the fact that making a film is a good way for inmates to reintegrate themselves into society. But in this particular case, there are reasons to be alarmed. Amanda Knox is being treated like a celebrity, when in fact we are talking about someone who stands accused of an atrocious crime," she explains, adding that "the only thing that Amanda Knox should be doing right now is thinking about what happened on the night that Meredith was murdered."

Alessandro Riccini Ricci, director of the film festival, regrets the decision: "It is really too bad because I have seen the film and Amanda turns out to be a very magnetic actress. She is really very, very good (…) Had we not known about her past, I’m sure she would have received unanimous critical acclaim for her performance." It remains to be seen whether the young woman will be quite so acclaimed on January 16, 2009, the date on which her trial is set to begin.
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:22 am   Post subject:    

I guess the truth is an enemy and gets a bit uncomfortable for these people Kermit.
I would regard this banning as a badge of honour.

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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:33 am   Post subject:    

DeathFish 2000 wrote:
I would regard this banning as a badge of honour.


I agree. I believe Harry Rag was banned from there too and he regards it as a badge of honour as well. Candace is waving the white flag. She's completely out of her depth when it comes to discussing the case with frog-y-rana.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:57 am   Post subject: Family ties   

Kermit wrote:

Quote:
Well I guess that Frog-y (and others, I'm sure) will have no further opportunities to try to inject some ideas into the reader blog on the SPI.
Shame, I always thought that a vigorous, heterogeneous debate, with new ideas from new posters, is what makes Internet a most unique and rich townhall.
Of course, new ideas can be dangerous to those who want no new ideas.


You could always take it up with Candace's editor at the PI, whose name is Don Smith I believe.
But I suppose Candace could argue that she has never encouraged new ideas or vigorous debate, so why should you or anyone else expect that on her blog?

Candace sometimes evokes the fact that the PI is a family publication as a reason for deleting posts. I had always assumed she meant that the PI is a publication that must be fit for viewing by the whole family, but I now believe she was actually referring to just her family. In this case, it is a family blog for a particular family (and their friends) and, as such, of limited interest to those who are not part of this family.
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 1:05 am   Post subject: Fancy a dish from the Cook anyone?   

Hi DF2K,

I'm glad you had a chuckle. The cook as Miss Havisham from great expectations :lol: :lol:

She can be quite a laugh when she writes about the case, impossible to take her any other way, she is so clumsy, scatty... sort of foot in the mouth person, but when she goes OT she is barking mad :lol:

She seems to be stuck in another era. How old is this woman?

Yeah, British students would be so missing black pudding and jellied eels. :lol: :lol:

Posted by Candace Dempsey at 12/16/08 3:42 p.m.

OT. Here are some foods that British students may be homesick for while in Perugia. The same foods are often found in British novels and I've often wondered what they look like. They're pictured here. I love the clever names. I'll skip the jellied eels.

Bangers and mash
Bakewell tart
black pudding
Butties and bats
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 1:12 am   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
"Candace sometimes evokes the fact that the PI is a family publication as a reason for deleting posts"

I dont disagree but this reason is one of many in her strange world and I stick by my earlier statement - for want of not stating the obvious:-

Ms.Dempsey is notorious for deleting thousands upon thousands of comments on her blog under the guise that they have somehow broken one of her many blog rules – when in fact those that have their comments deleted have broken the unwritten rule of daring to reason through debate the suggestion that maybe Amanda Knox could be guilty of involvement in this crime.

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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:31 am   Post subject:    

Frank and Patrick:

I think it's personal.

An early comment at Perugia-Shock

Anonymous said...

I don't think it's nice to make a blog about it.
By the way, if you want to know what i'm thinking about it in my opinion amanda is a fucking bitch who knows everything but she's going on shouting up. i'm very angry about it! also because my city looks like a bad place, while people interested in it are a boy from puglia and a girl from britain!!

= in poche parole: non credo sia bello fare un blog su questo, ma in ogni caso penso che la colpevole (e poi aggiungo qualche insulto perchè se li merita)sia Amanda.. ciò che è sicuro è che lei sa tutto ma continua a stare zitta. e perugia viene mostrata come una pessima città, peccato che le persone coinvolte siano un tipo pugliese e una stron** inglese!
Michela



frank said...

I'm also in Perugia and I've spent so many evenings with Patrick and some girls at my place, at his place or around. And I've never seen him doing anything wrong. While our dear foreign girls... it's not the first time they tell bullshits to the police...


Sono anch'io in Perugia e ho speso così tante sere con Patrick e qualche ragazza a casa mia o a casa sua. e non l'ho mai visto fare niente di sbagliato. Mentre le nostre care ragazze straniere. Non è la prima volta che dicono cazzate alla polizia....

November 13, 2007 6:50 AM



So if Frank and Patrick spent SO MANY evening's together at each other's places, I'm thinking they must know each other quite well.

By this time it's already obvious Frank has "sources" close to the investigation and I think he thought he would get Patrick's version when he was released. But apparently Patrick was already lining up a paid interview before his release. Frank spent two or three posts decrying this situation and criticizing Patrick wanting pay for his story.



Personally, I'm not gonna criticise Patrick. His infamy wasn't of his own seeking. He'd been locked up for two weeks, he had hundreds of journalists waiting to pounce on him, his bar was closed indefinitely without permission to re-open, his livelihood, reputation and life in Perugia was in ruins. You can bet he was angry with Amanda

But he was selling HIS STORY of how that happened TO HIM. Not attempting to sell a book on the back of Meredith's murder. If you sell a story to the UK press they are quite likely to put you and yours up at a safe address to maintain the exclusivity. He probably needed a day or two away from it all with his family while they tried to work out what to do next.



Back to Frank. I get the impression his nose was put out of joint by being left out of the loop by Patrick. Following Patrick's release and subsequent "exclusive", Frank made comments in several stories that Patrick had never explained to the world why his phone was pinged by the cell covering Piazza Grimana. His attitude to Patrick became "unfriendly" under the guise of distaste with Patrick for selling his story.

I think Patrick would have become well aware of the things Frank was saying about him at Perugia Shock. Frank even made snide comments about journalists not being allowed at the eventual re-opening of Le Chic - suggesting that had he let them in, the bar might not have been so empty. When Patrick eventually agreed to speak to Frank in March, the first thing Frank asked about was Patrick's phone ping. Patrick immediately got angry and it was downhill all the way.

In a nutshell:

I think Patrick and Frank have become personal enemies.

Frank may find he's in a position to throw mud at Patrick but I think Patrick will save his mud for Amanda in court. Because of the animosity, I think Frank's assessment of the validity of Patrick's evidence is way off the mark. I think Patrick (and maybe one or two of his customers??) has more evidence to give relating to this crime than we know. Patrick may not be able to shed much light on the events which happened at the cottage but it's obvious he knows a lot about the background to the crime. He knew Amanda probably as well as anyone in Perugia. I think he feels guilty about contributing to the friction between Amanda and Meredith with his job offer. He may have perversely enjoyed watching Amanda "walk off in a strop", How was he to know that a couple of days later Meredith would be dead?
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:54 pm   Post subject: Confusing details   

Brian wrote:

Quote:
I think Patrick and Frank have become personal enemies.


Interesting post, Brian.

You know the old saying? The enemy of my enemy is my friend? I think that if you traced it on a graph, you would find that Frank's attitude toward Amanda improved as his attitude toward Patrick took a nose dive. As you suggest, this feud may have been simmering for awhile, and may be related to Patrick preferring to tell his story elsewhere, denying Frank the scoop.

I wonder when Patrick and Frank hung out with the same girls. We were recently told that Frank was in Florence when Meredith was murdered and moved back to Perugia to cover the case. Frank looks to be in his mid-to-late 30's. So when was he a student in Perugia and for how long? Is this when he and Patrick became friends? Did Frank also hang out for years in Perugia after he left the university?

Also, is it just me or do you get the impression from Frank's earliest posts that he had met Meredith or knew her slightly? I don't think he actually says it, but he talks about her like an acquaintance. But this can't be if he returned to Perugia after she was murdered.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:03 pm   Post subject: On the folly of cleaning knives with bleach   

As everyone knows or should know, knife manufacturers warn against the use of bleach to clean knives. The information below was sent to me by jw, a long-time member of this board who posts infrequently but follows daily. Thanks jw!

Knives do not need to be cleaned with bleach, nor should they be cleaned with bleach. Basta!


Care of Knives
Every Dexter-Russell product is designed to exceed the performance expectations of the user. Each product is individually heat treated and given the blade and edge geometry suited for the task.

The performance of these superior products can be diminished, if theyʼre not cared for properly. The cleaning and care of Dexter-Russell's products is critical to their long-term performance. We recommend adherence to the following guidelines to maximize the performance of Dexter-Russell products:

1. Cutlery should be hand washed in mild- to medium-strength detergent and towel-dried.

2. Knives should not be placed in automatic dishwashers. The blade edges will be dulled from rubbing against each other, and caustic detergents will cause staining and pitting of the blade. Heat and detergents cause the natural oils and pigments in wood-handled products to be drawn out of the wood, resulting in the handle fading and splitting.

3. Cutlery should not be soaked for long periods or submerged for cleaning. If a user insists on soaking cutlery in soap, bleach, or chlorine, soaking should be kept to a minimum, and the products rinsed thoroughly and dried immediately.

4. Carbon-steel knives should be washed and dried immediately after use to prevent rusting.

Chlorine and bleach products discolor and pit stain-free and high-carbon steel. If chlorine or bleach products come in contact with the blade, they must be thoroughly rinsed off immediately.

When cutlery is left to soak in aluminum pans or stainless steel sinks, galvanic action, the transfer of electrons from one metal to another, may occur. Galvanic action may cause pitting on cutlery blades. To prevent it, avoid long periods of soaking, and remove cutlery from condiments such as mayonnaise when they are kept in aluminum or stainless steel pans.

Only frequent and prompt cleaning of cutlery after each use with non-caustic solutions and prompt towel drying will ensure the performance and beauty of Dexter-Russell's superior products.


http://cutlerymania.com/knives/drussell.htm
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Offline DLW


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:41 pm

Posts: 623

PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:41 pm   Post subject:    

For those who have not seen the 12/05/08 broadcast of Dateline’s ‘Murder of Meredith Kercher’, it is now available on you tube. It is in 5 parts, each segment is about 10 min in length. The first half is essentially a recap of an earlier Dateline program.

http://tinyurl.com/563ypn
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Offline Mutley


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Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:38 pm

Posts: 71

PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 6:12 pm   Post subject:    

Have I missed something in the last week or has there been an uncharacteristic silence from Seattle regarding AK's foray into the world of movie stardom? I had expected by now to have been told that either:

1. AK was beaten around the head by the director after a 14 hour audition.

2. It's a fake movie

3. The movie was leaked to the tabloids. The real and full movie shows her in a totally different light.

4.She wasn't in the movie. She was in her room reading Harry Potter in Cantonese.

5. (Had my money on this) AK made it as a way of helping other prisoners whose plight she now has great insight of and sympathy for. It was hard finding the time to take out of her studies of languages and she did so only after desperate pleading by the director and the governor. When she leaves she wants to do more work for prisoner reform and educational opportunities. NB: The governor, the director, the sound man and the lesbian camerawoman all tried to hit on her.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 6:23 pm   Post subject:    

Mutley wrote:

Quote:
Have I missed something in the last week or has there been an uncharacteristic silence from Seattle regarding AK's foray into the world of movie stardom? I had expected by now to have been told that either:

1. AK was beaten around the head by the director after a 14 hour audition.

2. It's a fake movie

3. The movie was leaked to the tabloids. The real and full movie shows her in a totally different light.

4.She wasn't in the movie. She was in her room reading Harry Potter in Cantonese.

5. (Had my money on this) AK made it as a way of helping other prisoners whose plight she now has great insight of and sympathy for. It was hard finding the time to take out of her studies of languages and she did so only after desperate pleading by the director and the governor. When she leaves she wants to do more work for prisoner reform and educational opportunities. NB: The governor, the director, the sound man and the lesbian camerawoman all tried to hit on her.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Well, when I wrote the post for TJMK last week, there had been no official response and nothing has changed as far as I know. However, the unofficial response has been far less creative than yours. Those people are dullards! I read an anonymous comment on Frank's telling all the critics of this latest career move to stop trying to "micromanage" AK, and the Cook says what's the big deal? She only gets 5 minutes of screen time, so the tabloids are once again wrong to call her the star of the movie.

As for your scenario #5, that's the one I had my money on too. Maybe they were going to go with it but I spoiled things for them.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:13 pm   Post subject: Amanda's Law   

Italian Parliament looking into passing a new Amanda's Law.

The Parliamentary Supervisory Committee (of prisons??) is talking to the Minister of Justice about the passing of a law which will prevent the use of film made in prison being used to promote the popularity and success of those appearing in the film.


fondazioneitaliani
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Offline nicki

Forensics Moderator


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:27 am

Posts: 847

PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 8:17 pm   Post subject: Re: Amanda's Law   

Brian S. wrote:
Italian Parliament looking into passing a new Amanda's Law.

The Parliamentary Supervisory Committee (of prisons??) is talking to the Minister of Justice about the passing of a law which will prevent the use of film made in prison being used to promote the popularity and success of those appearing in the film.


fondazioneitaliani


Hi Brian.

Pietro Laffranco (Pdl), is a member of the "Parliament Surveillance Commitee".

There are several of those. I assume the Commitee Lanfranco is part of oversees media as well as related public money spending. He states: "It is unacceptable that Amanda Knox, currently incarcerated while awaiting trial for a vicious crime such as the murder of poor Meredith, may use media notoriety to become an actress...I will work on a law that prevents the use of the image of those individuals who have become "popular" because of vicious crimes,not to deny them the right to re-education and reintegration to society, but in order to avoid that such individuals may be presented as role models or "stars" to society".

I think Laffranco's reaction, as well as that of many other politicians and of the Italian public is the result of an excessive media exposure that has turned some of the individuals involved in brutal crimes into "heroes" or media stars.Apart from Knox, Italy has seen other cases in the recent past.

There are countless and very sad comments on the Italian blogs about what seems nowadays the fastest way to reach notoriety,that is to brutally kill someone. In this way, fame and stardom are guaranteed, and even more so if the defendant is young and photogenic. Very sad. But very true, it seems.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:03 pm   Post subject: "All of Florence is awaiting the release of 'Hannibal."   

Fact ot Fiction - Is this why Spezi HATES Mignini? Is he trapped in his own Jealousy

Preston's publisher, Ornella Robbiati of RCS Libri, says she's not happy about the situation and doesn't want to be involved. ''Journalist Spezi and [the] main police investigator hate each other," says Robbiati, whose publishing company is Italy's largest. ''Why? I don't know. It's a complicated matter, this Monster of Florence. If they [Preston and Spezi] think they have discovered something useful to police and law, they should say something without insulting police and judges -- but it sounds too personal in my opinion, now."

The Boston Globe


The first half of the book covers Spezi's examination of the case; the second half follows Preston's involvement in the story....And there is a great laugh-out-loud moment, when Preston is introduced as another famous writer, only to be told, "All of Florence is awaiting the release of 'Hannibal.'¤"

The Times-Picayune



And for some background it's worth reading these six pages:

July/August 2006 - A true crime story

by Douglas Preston

The Monster of Florence


It all began one summer morning many years ago in the Florentine hills. The date was June 7, 1981, a Sunday. Mario Spezi, then thirty-five, was covering the crime desk at La Nazione, Florence’s leading paper, when a call came in: a young couple had been found dead in a quiet lane in the hills south of town. Spezi, who lived in those same hills, hopped into his Citroën and drove like hell along back roads, arriving before the police....

People have often asked me if the Monster of Florence will ever be found. I once believed that Spezi and I could find the truth; now I am not so certain....life, I have learned, is not so tidy. Here were murders without motive and a trail of clues apparently without end. The process of discovery has led investigators so deeply into a wilderness of falsehood that I doubt they will ever find their way out. Spezi and I used to laugh at their elaborate theories, but ours may not be much better...


The Atlantic



and Franks version of the Mignini controversy:


Francesco Narducci was the son of one of a perugian wealthy family, married to Francesca Spagnoli --heiress of the fortune of Luisa Spagnoli fashion label--, handsome and athletic, and, at the age of 36, already a successful gastroenterologist.

In the hot and sunny morning of October 8 1985 Narducci made his rounds at the hospital until at 12:30, when he received a call from a nurse...They will find him 5 days later, drowned in the water of the lake.

In the summer 2001 the Squadra Mobile started an inquest on a group of loan sharks who were doing threat calls to a hairdresser in Foligno, near Perugia. It looked like --in order to scare the woman-- they were trying to credit themselves as a satanic sect and as the authors of the murderer of the doctor in the lake, at least that's how the content of the calls was read. We'll make you have the same fate of the doctor at the lake, they were saying.

At this point the situation was this:
in Perugia it seems that there were rumors that Narducci killed himself because he was the monster of Florence (indeed he was going often to Florence and after his death the killings stopped).
It seems that the Foligno loan sharks were selling themselves as satanic killers of Narducci....So, Mignini reopened the case on the hypothesis that the Foligno loan sharks were really involved in the Narducci's murder and that the information coming from the Gang of Magliana was reliable....


Perugia-Shock

BUT:

All this presents just one part of a thirty year story. The details of another parallel story have just been conveniently left out of the record by the authors of the links above.

I'll post this before it gets too long.

More to follow and none of it will shed much light on the Monster of Florence. Just the behind the scenes activity which I believe explains why Spezi harbours so much resentment that the subject has become all-consuming.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:06 pm   Post subject:    

Re Spezi: I found that Boston Globe quote when Preston first inserted himself into this case. It has been conveniently ignored by the Mignini conspiracy theorists. In my opinion, both Spezi and Preston have shamelessly exploited Meredith's tragic murder to create a buzz for and then sell their book.
I look forward to more details on the source of Spezi's deep hatred for Mignini because I have long believed it must be due to more than just a couple of weeks spent in jail.
By the way, I have heard here and there that the charges Mignini faces in this instance of "abuse of office" are pretty routine, nothing earth-shattering. It is interesting to note that those who jumped on the case against Mignini, in order to discredit his investigation of the murder of Meredith Kercher, are unable to come up with a pattern of incompetence or abuse. Indeed, many seem not to know exactly what he is charged with, or to care.
And not one has been able to show what Mignini has done wrong in the prosecution of the case at hand.
Many cite these so-called leaks as an example of his wrongdoing, but I haven't read of a single one that has come from Mignini. And he fired Lalli for leaking information to the press over the phone. As for the diary, it wasn't Mignini who offered to let me have a look.


Last edited by Skeptical Bystander on Thu Dec 18, 2008 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:34 pm   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
....In my opinion, both Spezi and Mignini have shamelessly exploited Meredith's tragic murder to create a buzz for and then sell their book.


Skep

I'm sure you mean Spezi and Preston. :lol:

Please forgive the slight delay in my follow on post. I've become otherwise caught up but I hope to post it in the next hour or two.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 5:40 pm   Post subject:    

Brian wrote:

Quote:
I'm sure you mean Spezi and Preston.

Please forgive the slight delay in my follow on post. I've become otherwise caught up but I hope to post it in the next hour or two.


Of course. Thanks; I've edited my post. My brain is a bit addled this morning. No hurry on your follow-up, but I'm interested in reading it!
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Offline Tara


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Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

Posts: 1010

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 1:49 am   Post subject: Question...   

After reading this suggested explanation about the washing machine on the defense blog, I was wondering how many folks have their laundry rooms set up in this fashion? I truly have never heard of this before...

Quote:
#231080Posted by sept79 at 12/18/08 4:00 p.m.

Thought on the washing machine supposedly finishing it's cycles when the police were present at the flat. Maybe power to the machine was controlled by a wall mounted on/off switch which also controlled an overhead light and/or various wall outlets. If this were true, MK might have started a load of wash the previous night and the murderer upon exiting the flat could have turned the light switch off which, also, turned the washing machine off. Maybe, maybe not.

Bob


Thanks in advance for any input.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 3:07 am   Post subject: Re: Question...   

Tara wrote:
After reading this suggested explanation about the washing machine on the defense blog, I was wondering how many folks have their laundry rooms set up in this fashion? I truly have never heard of this before...

Quote:
#231080Posted by sept79 at 12/18/08 4:00 p.m.

Thought on the washing machine supposedly finishing it's cycles when the police were present at the flat. Maybe power to the machine was controlled by a wall mounted on/off switch which also controlled an overhead light and/or various wall outlets. If this were true, MK might have started a load of wash the previous night and the murderer upon exiting the flat could have turned the light switch off which, also, turned the washing machine off. Maybe, maybe not.

Bob


Thanks in advance for any input.



Tara,

Such setups do exist.

Here in the UK, that idea was brought in in an attempt to "spread the load" being fed by the electrical generating companies. Everyone burns electicity like mad during the day but not so much during the night. Thus the generating companies were pouring energy into their generators during the day only to find they were producing excess electricity at night.

So they invented "off peak" electricty. They sell it cheaper. This requires a small change to the metering system and a timer at the house. Anything running from the "off peak" source is cheaper to operate.

See this link to get an idea of what it does and what can happen


Three observations:

I have no idea whether this idea is used in Italy.

If it was installed in the house, it will have been obvious to anyone who requires to know(as would be the accuracy of the clock etc.)

I really don't think this will have been popular or used by the girls in that small house. Just got to sleep and at 1am in the morning the washing machine roars into life right outside your door.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 4:04 am   Post subject:    

Just another quick post before I retire. Spezi will have to wait until tomorrow now.

But I've just done a quick scan of the blogs and boards. I noticed Pete in his last post at TJMK said Frank Sfarzo was a stage name. I'm inclined to agree with him.

Massimo Sfarzo literally translates as "maximum splendour".

Since it's been quiet for the last couple of weeks I've been digging into other things. I turned some stuff up re Frank a few days ago.


WARNING:

These links are proof of nothing:

Frank claims to be a "film professor".

Florence has a Film School

Professional Certificate Program Florence Film School

Florence Film School is either a branch of, or affiliate of The New York Film Academy

[url=http://www.nyfa.com/film_school/study_abroad/florence.php]The New York Film Academy is setting up branches overseas
[/url]

FILM SCHOOL
FLORENCE ITALY
NOTE: ALL COURSES ARE TAUGHT IN ENGLISH....


They also have a branch at Universal Studios and connections with Disney/MGM


BUT best of all Florence Film School has a Blog:

26 December 2007
Alas, the Blog!
Now that the Christmas festivities have passed us by, I wanted to devote more energy to get the blog that I have been discussing for some time now in working order.

First, I want to thank you, the reader and contributor, for taking the time to read as the construction of this blog, and by extension The Florence Film School, takes its creative shape.

Much time and devotion have been poured into the program and the creation of this blog is merely an extension of this hard work....



Now I know that Blogger comes with a column layout and you can see some similarities in the finished product of other bloggers. But I've looked high and low on Blogspot for any two blogs which appears so similar as this one does to Perugia-Shock.

Oh those headings! If you can find another blogger masthead quite like them, I think you'll be looking a long time. And that's not the only similarity.

Just Google "Blogspot" and try it out.

Meanwhile, I present:

The Florence Film School Blog
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 3:41 pm   Post subject:    

Brian wrote:

Quote:
Tara wrote:
After reading this suggested explanation about the washing machine on the defense blog, I was wondering how many folks have their laundry rooms set up in this fashion? I truly have never heard of this before...

Quote:
#231080Posted by sept79 at 12/18/08 4:00 p.m.

Thought on the washing machine supposedly finishing it's cycles when the police were present at the flat. Maybe power to the machine was controlled by a wall mounted on/off switch which also controlled an overhead light and/or various wall outlets. If this were true, MK might have started a load of wash the previous night and the murderer upon exiting the flat could have turned the light switch off which, also, turned the washing machine off. Maybe, maybe not.

Bob


Thanks in advance for any input.



Tara,

Such setups do exist.

Here in the UK, that idea was brought in in an attempt to "spread the load" being fed by the electrical generating companies. Everyone burns electicity like mad during the day but not so much during the night. Thus the generating companies were pouring energy into their generators during the day only to find they were producing excess electricity at night.

So they invented "off peak" electricty. They sell it cheaper. This requires a small change to the metering system and a timer at the house. Anything running from the "off peak" source is cheaper to operate.

See this link to get an idea of what it does and what can happen


Three observations:

I have no idea whether this idea is used in Italy.

If it was installed in the house, it will have been obvious to anyone who requires to know(as would be the accuracy of the clock etc.)

I really don't think this will have been popular or used by the girls in that small house. Just got to sleep and at 1am in the morning the washing machine roars into life right outside your door.


This falls under the category of things we can speculate about for which a simple and objective answer exists, known to the police, the prosecutors and defense.

Of course, we also know thanks to the film professor (I was the one who said his was a stage name and yes, Brian, your translation of the middle and last name is correct and pretty telling) that Knox thought the machine was broken and so never used it, even though others did and a repairman had been recently seen on the premises. Can you imagine coming home to an open front door (imagine how cold the place was on November 2 after the door was left open, plus the broken window, creating a tremendous cold air draft inside, where the stone walls would have kept the cold air in), turning on the lights and hearing a machine that was dormant suddenly resume its cycle, seeing that one flatmate's door is locked and blood, not seeing the disarray and broken window in the other flatmate's room, even though you have walked past it to get to the other bathroom, where you see feces in the toilet, which have been sitting in toilet bowl water for several hours, with a predictable result.... and going about your business as if nothing were amiss?

What's wrong with this picture?
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 3:57 pm   Post subject: What a farce!   

Brian wrote:

Quote:
Massimo Sfarzo literally translates as "maximum splendour".


Or maximum magnificence. And I believe sfarzo can also mean "farce."
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 3:07 pm   Post subject:    

Fast Pete has a fair and well-balanced critique of the recent NBC documentary about the case:

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php

Clint Van Zandt and NBC News deserve praise and recognition for their coverage of the case.
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:55 pm   Post subject:    

Frog-y-rana was banned from Candace Dempsey's blog for being far more intelligent than Candace and repeatedly making her look like a fool. However, there is another poster, cherchezlafemme, who is running rings round Candace, funnycat, tufa, sept79 and Ocenia08.

I thought I'd post cherchezlafemme's comments here before Candace or funnycat delete them:

Posted by cherchezlafemme at 12/20/08 7:46 a.m.

Funnycat asked me:
Cherchez do you consider any point of view except the prosecutor's?
.......................................................
Sure, Funnycat, I am an independent adult and I consider ALL points of view.
I keep an open mind until I hear what happens at the trial and feel convinced that the truth has come to light.
When I read certain things that just don't seem logical to ME, I will respond, and not go along with the group or the majority, just because most people feel that way.
But I don't represent the prosecution or anyone else. I just speak for me! I don't jump to an opinion, one way or the other, either. My nature is to be more analytical and think things through carefully. AND, I rely upon my life experiences, which is what jury members are supposed to do.
AND-any opinions I have can change at any time if I feel the evidence is there.

------------------------------------------
FUNNYCAT wrote to me :
"you libel Raffaele."
No Way, Funnycat! Libel has to be malicious and defaming and untrue. Anyway, I was only ASKING, not stating as fact the following: " Do you really know Raffaele didn't have a sexual interest in her[Meredith]? I don't know one way or the other but how can we rule it out that he didn't?"
...............................................
And, Funnycat, since when is it LIBEL to wonder whether a male has a (possible) sexual interest in a female... LOL!!!! Well, maybe it was to the nuns in Catholic school, !!!! (JUST KIDDING, EVERYONE!)

My point was only that you thought "sexual interest" was a bad thing and was going to narrow the list of suspects to just one-Rudy. But, if you're honest, you know a majority of guys in Perugia (and other places) most likely would find her "sexually interesting."

Hey, to me, and most normal people, sexual interest is a good thing! I think it's a normal and healthy response.

But, one of my strong opinions thus far is that I don't think THIS crime has anything to do with "sexual interest." That is a pretty strong opinion that I have.

Even if sadistic sexual behavior had some role, was a only a tool in humiliating and punishing Meredith.

-------------------------------------------------------
sept79 wrote about Raffaele:
"
He[Raffaele] had a very steady girl friend! Also, most people would deem messing around with their girl friends roommate to be a relationship breaker."
.................................................
Very steady girlfriend? No,not according to what I've read in numerous places. Including from quotes from Amanda, herself.
They only knew each other, what, less than two weeks?
Not very steady. Intense, maybe, but very new, not what I would call a "very steady" relationship.
In high school and your early twenties, relationships start and stop and restart and things can change a lot, even overnight! Yes, someone can have more than one sexual interest at the same time! Sometimes people have the interest and never act on it, sometimes people act on it. It's not a crime to have a sexual interest in someone! Well, not unless the person you have a sexual interest in is underage.

And how many "sexual interests" and crushes and desires are never expressed or discussed, but are there, just the same? There is no testimony.
Those feelings are just part of being human.
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Offline DLW


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:41 pm

Posts: 623

PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:08 pm   Post subject:    

Well Amanda made the top 10 list of noteworthy people in Italy, at least according to this list in the Fondazoine.it. I know in past years, people of very questionable character even make it to the Time’s magazine people of the year list. She couldn’t have made this list based on her own character. Barack Obama is number uno.

What it says about Amanda, and the journalist’s reference to Meredith : ‘It is a chronicle of cases of black that has more upset Italy in November 2007, and to place on the cruelty of a gesture that has torn the life a girl so young, and a dynamic so absurd.’

‘But according to the Italian justice is yet to be proven, and the possibility that it was she, along with two boys, groped to involve Mez in a party-based alcohol and drugs, and that his refusal was she to kill her, seem very high.’

http://tinyurl.com/8x2lmb
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 9:54 pm   Post subject:    

I've just had a quick look at Candace Dempsey's blog and saw this post:

Posted by Candace Dempsey at 12/21/08 11:47 a.m.

Readers,
If I delete your comments and you feel it was in error, then please email me. I will not discuss the deletion online. Thanks.

Candace


Some things never change.

Candace was still disputing the time the postal police turned up at the cottage. Raffaele has already stated on the record that he didn't phone the police before the arrival of the postal police and that he had lied. Besides, the arrival of the postal police was caught on CCTV camera. She manically disputes every single piece of incriminating evidence.
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 10:31 pm   Post subject:    

There's a new piece up on the True Justice For Meredith Kercher website:

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php
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Offline DeathFish 2000


User avatar


Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:53 pm

Posts: 340

Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 10:50 pm   Post subject:    

Why in her thousands upon thousands of deletions will she not discuss any of the said deletions online?
Why does she want them to be private?
How can anyone with a track record such as hers delete things in error?
In error? She is an expert in deleting comments by people who dont agree with her.
Issues where she knows she is backed into a corner are addressed with the same drivel: "I am not going to discuss this, it has been done to death, take it elsewhere" or words to that effect.

This is weak and pathetic, coming from such an arrogant individual.

Why have a blog if you cannot debate anything?
This woman is such a phoney with her censorship, just like all other dictatorships.
Copyright?
Ever heard of free use, Sherlock?
Libel?
Try it, sue me.
You will publish and be damned Dempsey.

Dempsey is so happy she fixed a book deal, profiteering out of the brutal murder of a young girl.
She is proud of herself for this as if it is a milestone in her professional life.

I hope you enjoy the food you will buy from the proceeds of this rag you will be hawking about Dempsey, but I suspect only your friends will buy it.
I hope you dont feel ill after the meal.
Somehow I dont think you will.

_________________
R.I.P
Meredith Kercher.
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Offline Frank Columbo


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Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:16 am

Posts: 12

PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:59 am   Post subject:    

Hello everyone,

with a rather hefty amount of jailtime for rudy guede to reflect upon, surely it is time for him to give a truthful account of the events that night. i mean, what does he now stand to lose from a little bit of honesty?
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:53 pm

Posts: 340

Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:29 am   Post subject:    

They're probably sending him phone credits and all other goodies.
Rudy, you're such a wonderful guy we all love you so much.....
Don't say you knew Amanda...
Check my avatar.

_________________
R.I.P
Meredith Kercher.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:35 pm   Post subject:    

Frank Columbo wrote:
with a rather hefty amount of jailtime for rudy guede to reflect upon, surely it is time for him to give a truthful account of the events that night. i mean, what does he now stand to lose from a little bit of honesty?


It is indeed remarkable that Rudy doesn't speak.
Most probably, i think, it is because his involvement is graver than what he told us so far. The truth would be more harmful for him.
He would like to pass the whole guilt onto AK and RS but if he went into details along this line both his old version and his corrected version would collapse. There is no way for him to say more. So he remains with his old version throughout the appeal process.
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Offline DLW


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:41 pm

Posts: 623

PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:55 pm   Post subject:    

"My tears are born from the darkness of solitude full of pain," he writes in a leaflet delivered to his lawyers, Nicodemo Gentile and Walter Biscotti.

I don’t know if this qualifies as talking, but Rudy is putting pen to paper in the form of a poem. It’s a small start. Keep writing Rudy. Your appeal will be coming up .

The jury (Judge) selection has been completed.

http://tinyurl.com/8cub2y

To all table members Season Greetings, Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukah and Happy Kwanzaa.

May the New Year will bring some closure for the Kercher family.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:04 pm   Post subject:    

Hi Frank Columbo and welcome!

Thanks, DLW, for the holiday wishes and same to you.

Let's hope Rudy writes a truthful epic poem.

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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:37 pm   Post subject:    

bolint wrote:

It is indeed remarkable that Rudy doesn't speak.
Most probably, i think, it is because his involvement is graver than what he told us so far. The truth would be more harmful for him.
He would like to pass the whole guilt onto AK and RS but if he went into details along this line both his old version and his corrected version would collapse. There is no way for him to say more. So he remains with his old version throughout the appeal process.


Hi Bolint,

I agree with you. Rudy Guede only implicated Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito when their lawyers made it clear that they thought he was responsible for Meredith's murder.

Rudy is a very disturbed and evil person. We should not expect him to be honest or honourable. It's not in his nature. I expect him to stick to the story he used at his trial. He won't convince any jury with his story because it's crystal clear that he is guilty.

Welcome Frank Columbo.
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Offline Michael

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Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 6:25 am   Post subject: Sterling Moss   

After a catastrophic meltdown of my computer system Thursday evening, I'm finally up and running once again and able to post.

Firstly, I would like to wish all our members and guests a merry Christmas and a happy new yesr.

Also, a big welcome to Frank Columbo and all our other new members :)

On catching up on my reading, I see nothing has changed on the pro-Knox blogs...an unrelenting stream of propeganda on one, Troll-City on the other, no surprises there. But on a positive note, there have been some good posts here on PMF and TJMK is going from strength to strength, becoming an evermore potent force for Meredith, so kudos to the editor and all the contributors there.

To all those I'm owing PM's/e-mails, I find myself behind on those once again and will be getting onto those just as soon as I can. I shall also be updating the site later on today and shall be posting again a bit later.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 3:59 pm   Post subject: Warm Socks and Freedom   

Knox's Christmas wish: warm socks, and freedom


...The 21-year-old Knox has been detained for over a year in the picturesque medieval city of Perugia on charges of murder and sexual violence. Her trial, and that of her former Italian boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito, is slated to open Jan. 16, over a month later than originally planned.

"She's disappointed, but seems to be holding up pretty well under the circumstances," Knox's family said in an e-mailed statement to The Associated Press.

Knox is planning to attend an in-jail Christmas Day Mass, the family said.

Even if visitors are not allowed to bring in wrapped presents, Knox's parents are trying to get her "warm sheets, slippers, cold weather underwear, wool socks and a sweater." They said she also asked for some food items and a sketch pad and wishes she was "out of prison."...


ASSOCIATED PRESS

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"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Jools


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

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Location: Spain

PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 5:56 pm   Post subject:    

From ANSA:

KERCHER MURDER JURY CHOSEN
Six 'people's judges' to flank court magistrates at trial.
(ANSA) - Perugia, December 22 - Three women and three men have been chosen as jury members for the upcoming trial of two suspects in the murder of British university student Meredith Kercher. The six jury members, all between the ages of 35 and 57, were chosen from an initial pool of 50 Perugia residents and will flank two judges during the trial of Kercher's 21-year-old American flatmate, Amanda Knox, and her Italian boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito, 24.

The six jury members, referred to as 'the people's judges' in Italian, will have the ''same weight and the same responsibility'' as the two professional judges in the trial, Judge Giancarlo Massei said during his assessment of the residents' suitability on Monday.

He added that each jury member would be paid between 25 and 70 euros per hearing according to their professions. The trial is set to begin on January 16. British exchange student Kercher, 21, was found semi-naked and with her throat slashed on November 2 last year in the house she shared with Knox and two other Italian women. Last month a third defendant, 21-year-old Ivory Coast national Rudy Guede, was found guilty and sentenced to 30 years for sexually assaulting and murdering Kercher after opting for a fast-track trial, which is held without a jury. The prosecution claims Kercher was killed when all three suspects tried to force her to participate in ''a perverse group sex game''.

The suspects deny the charges.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 9:20 pm   Post subject: ADMINISTRATOR NOTE   

:!: Administrator Note:

The final main discussion thread has now been brought over from The True Crime Weblog Message Board and embedded on Perugia Murder File: IIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 5 - Oct 2, 08

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:14 am   Post subject:    

Well I guess if you want to stay out of prison I would advise not to sexually assault and then stab your housemate to death.

_________________
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Meredith Kercher.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:15 am   Post subject: ADMINISTRATOR NOTE   

:!: Aministrator Note:

Haloscans I - III have now been uploaded to P.M.F:

HALOSCAN I, 6 NOV - 19 DEC, 2007

HALOSCAN II, 17 DEC, 2007 - 18 FEB, 2008

HALOSCAN III, 15 FEB - 19 MARCH, 2008

As has True Crime Weblog DISQUS:

DISQUS, NOV - DEC, 2007

All can be found in The Murder of Meredith Kercher Main Discussion forum on Perugia Murder File :)

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 5:27 pm   Post subject:    

Thanks, Michael, for putting all of that valuable data within easy reach. For anyone who hasn't read them, the old haloscan threads are filled with interesting observations. I find something I had overlooked earlier every time I venture into one of them.

Things are fairly quiet as the year-end holidays approach. I'll be checking all my usual sources of information daily and will share anything worthwhile, but probably won't be online all day, every day.

Thanks to all of you, whether you are an active poster or an active reader who doesn't post (I hate the word lurker - that sounds like a judgement - and prefer "seeker"), for your insight and participation. The road ahead will be long, I think.

Happy Holidays!

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Offline Kermit


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Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:37 am

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 8:28 pm   Post subject: Merry Christmas to All   

Everyone knows that Santa Claus is a bit of an imposter, and that the real bringers of gifts at this time of year are the Three Kings of Orient. And in fact, they don't arrive until Epiphany (6 January).

(Well, if Santa makes a visit, I won't mind...)

May this holiday season bring peace, hope and joy to all.
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Offline Tara


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Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

Posts: 1010

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 8:46 pm   Post subject: Someone's into the Nog early!   

Happy Holidays everyone!

It looks like this poster from Knox's neighborhood in response to the Seattle Times' article may be having early sips of the holiday nog:

Quote:
thinkforachange
burien, WA
1 comments December 24, 2008 at 10:47 AMRating: (0) (0) Log in to
report abuse

It is really frustrating reading articles that DO NOT tell the truth. This knife that your reporters keep refering to has already been thrown out... NOT the correct knife of the murder, and the DNA could have been anyone of half of Italy... WHY do you keep hammering on this knife as if it were true evidence??? The REAL murderer has been convicted. Rudy Guede DID IT!!! The only reason Amanda is in jail is PURELY POLITICAL. Mignini and crew have the same evidence in ALL there trials.... Sex orgies and devil worship. Mignini is INDICTED and is IN TROUBLE for this very thing... falsefying evidence and the same PROFESSIONAL EYE WITNESSES that testify in ALL his trials. Amanda is just some poor girl that was in the wrong place at the wrong time.... just trying to further her "languages" education in Italy. The Italian Justice System is NOT like the US. The prosecutor RULES. Everyone is afraid to go against Mignini and crew for fear of retribution and it is ALL political. Try to get the facts at least somewhat correct before you print things in the newspaper. Try printing that Amanda is an A student, highly respected in all areas from home to teachers to all who know her. Print that she has NO criminal record. She is a bookworm and loves to study. AND THEN PRINT that Mignini has LOTS of problem with the truth, and is indicted for his devil worship/sex orgy other cases and has his church affiliations with "WHITE MAGIC" churches to combat all the devils around... and that he consults his psychic about all his cases...and gets her input on who he should go after...before you print anything else about Amanda, try READING the book by Doug Preston and Mario Spezi called "Monster of Florence" and get some truth about Mignini and crew. And as far as Meredith is concerned, of course Amanda is crushed that her new friend was brutally murdered. Amanda was having the time of her life and she and her new roommates were having a great adventure in a wonderful foreign country when Rudy Guede murdered Meredith. Don't punish Amanda because Rudy has a long criminal record of abusing young girls with break-ins and knives to their throats.... check your facts!!!!


SEATTLE TIMES COMMENTS
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 2:37 am   Post subject: Administrator Note!   

:!: Administrator Note:

The final Haloscans have been embedded into P.M.F:

HALOSCAN IV, 13 MARCH - 12 APRIL, 2008

HALOSCAN V, 11 - 29 APRIL, 2008

Thanks out to Tara for helping me gather some of those :)

Well, that's it...all the main discussions from our community since our beginning on the 6th Nov, 2007, all now loaded up to the forum here.

I'll be making a detailed post about them at a later point.


Merry Christmas everyone :)

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Jools


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

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Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:19 pm   Post subject:    

Rudy Guede confides in his lawyers...
"I think of the suffering of Meredith's parents"

http://tinyurl.com/8pubmx


"If I think of the suffering of the parents of Meredith, I can only remain silent."
That is the state of mind of Rudy Guede, the Ivorian 22 year old sentenced to 30 years in prison for the murder of Meredith Kercher.

The youngster has confided with his lawyers, Valter Biscotti and Nicodemo Gentile, who was said to be very bad psychologically.

Guede, first locked up in prison in Perugia, is now held in one of Viterbo, in a special ward Mammagialla, reserved for those accused of sexual offenses.

He attends the catechism classes of the prison and has never stopped declaring his foreignness to murder Meredith.

Reads very much, so his lawyers have given him two books for his birthday: "L'arte del dubbio" of Carofiglio and "The Appeal of Grisham.

But above all, he writes.

"He does it since the day on which he was arrested - said his defense attorney, Valter Biscotti -. Writes about his state of mind and his thoughts on the trial. In the cell has a stack of cards. And well aware of the time trial expected. "

"If I think of the suffering of the parents of Meredith, I can only remain silent."
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:05 am   Post subject:    

Jools quoted:

Quote:
"If I think of the suffering of the parents of Meredith, I can only remain silent."


I beg to differ -- it seems to me that you can only start talking, Rudy.
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Offline Fly by Night


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:09 pm

Posts: 1014

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:10 am   Post subject: Re: Someone's into the Nog early!   

Tara wrote:
Happy Holidays everyone!

It looks like this poster from Knox's neighborhood in response to the Seattle Times' article may be having early sips of the holiday nog:


Aloha Tara!

I hope the Cook saw that Seattle Times comment and quickly hired Bremner to initiate a lawsuit. Whoever it was that made that comment obviously stole the Cook-Book manuscript and leaked it out to the world. Tough break for the Cook and I sincerely hope she is able to find out who it was that made the post and really takes them to the cleaners!
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:53 pm

Posts: 340

Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:31 pm   Post subject:    

The Seattle Times comment above seems to have more than a touch of C Mellas about it.
Abusing young girls with break-ins and knives to their throats?
Is this libel, cookie?

_________________
R.I.P
Meredith Kercher.
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Offline Jools


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:39 pm   Post subject: Massimum Splendor is also The Ruthless and...   

With regards to similar Blogspot blogs to Perugia-shock... So much for the "Film Professor". :lol: :lol:

Here is one also that is same style as the Shock-Blog, same font, same polls and run by Frank himself.

http://chivuolesseremilionario.blogspot.com/

This is a blog about the Italian TV game show “Chi Vuol Essere Milionario?” In the UK and I think USA TV the quiz show is “Who wants to be a Millionaire”.

From what I understand:

Frank reports on the questions being asked in the TV quiz show. Then he posts on the comments side, sometime as Frank, but mostly as “lo spiatato” (The Ruthless). The comments are to discuss if answers are right or wrong, and the contestants intellectual capacity. He often uses the same type of sarcasm he uses in PS blog. He seems to be envious of the money some contestants have made, in the so familiar obsessive way he does about Patrick L. Diya. When he does this kind of commenting he gets a negative reaction from other commenters.
In this blog, his email is:
to_be_frank00@yahoo. Different from the one he gives in PS, but when you click in the comments section of frank as himself, you get the same blogger profile number as that of PS: http://www.blogger.com/profile/08198681486139232956

:lol: :lol: There is more... Now for 'The Moviemaker'

Here Frank posted as befrank-1. Describing himself as a moviemaker. Notice his email is the same as the one he gives for Perugia Shock.

http://www.imdb.com/user/ur10816660/comments
befrank-1
Email 2befrank@gmail.com
Biography Male, italian, movie maker.
User comments http://imdb.com/user/ur10816660/comments

:lol: :lol: And I guess this is where 'The Cook'
http://www.writers.com/dempsey.html#food - could get her supplies for those Italian internet Food Writing lessons.

http://truffles-wines-and-best-italian- ... gspot.com/

Truffles,Olive Oil and Amazing Italian Food and Wines.....
The right place if you want to know or order Truffles, Bottarga, Pasta, Lentils and other great italian Food and Wines.

If you want to know more about this cooking technique and these products you can still write me : to_be_frank00@yahoo.com .
:lol:

So, Jack of all trades and master of none... seems to be quite prolific on the blogosphere and we are also supposed to believe him to be a serious investigative journalist and trust him to be fair and not bias on the Meredith Kercher murder case? :(
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:53 pm

Posts: 340

Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:48 pm   Post subject:    

LOL!!!
Want a new career?
"Well, roll up your sleeves and sharpen your knives"
Had to laugh at that one Dempsey, oh the irony.

_________________
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Meredith Kercher.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:09 pm   Post subject: To be frank....   

Jools wrote:

Quote:
This is a blog about the Italian TV game show “Chi Vuol Essere Milionario?” In the UK and I think USA TV the quiz show is “Who wants to be a Millionaire”.


Great work, Jools! In answer to the question who wants to be a millionaire, I think the answer may be Frank himself.

Jools added:

Quote:
So, Jack of all trades and master of none... seems to be quite prolific on the blogosphere and we are also supposed to believe him to be a serious investigative journalist and trust him to be fair and not bias on the Meredith Kercher murder case?


I think the Perugia Schlock experience was an eye-opener for Frank as to just how easy it is to reproduce a basic template and get google ad revenue.

Seriously, though, it does cheapen his work to some extent. Who wants to be a millionaire is not exactly highbrow entertainment.

As for his career as a moviemaker, I think he should begin with a court metrage called "Becoming Frank Sfarzo," something along the lines of Being John Malkovich.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:13 pm   Post subject:    

Jools quoted from Frank's "food" blog:

Quote:
Truffles,Olive Oil and Amazing Italian Food and Wines.....
The right place if you want to know or order Truffles, Bottarga, Pasta, Lentils and other great italian Food and Wines.


The comments (3) following the latest entry make me think that Frank's main readers are Yogi Bear, Goofy, C Mellas and DJ. Here they are:

Comments:
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8:32 PM
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4:04 PM
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Offline Jools


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:45 pm   Post subject: Everyone use your five senses!   

DeathFish 2000 wrote:
LOL!!!
Want a new career?
"Well, roll up your sleeves and sharpen your knives"
Had to laugh at that one Dempsey, oh the irony.


DF2K,
LOL :lol:
Want to write like Hemingway?

"You'll also learn how to:

*Use all five senses to enrich your writing"

You think she used all her senses when she wrote:

http://candacedempsey.com/12.html
"Spooked in London"

"Not knowing anybody in London, I phoned a booking agent from the airport — asking for a room, any room. I didn't care where, as long as I could get there fast.

"Then I rode the Underground to Earl's Court, that infamous stretch of red brick on London's flyspecked fringe.

The only thing that kept me going was a vision I had of the room awaiting me. Neat and clean, with a Miss Marple type in starched cotton and permed gray hair to nurse me back to health.

A few blocks from the station I found my grim hotel and pushed open the heavy metal door. What foreign land was this? Reeking of bacon and fried bread, the lobby was a tower of babble, unbearable in my feverish state. Only the desk clerk spoke English. She was a plump, pitiless young woman with masses of bleached hair skewered into a bun.

"Your key," she said, holding up a large metal object. "If you lose it, you'll pay for it. Breakfast from 8 to 10 in the morning. No breakfast after those hours."

"Where's my room?" I managed to say.

She pointed to the stairs. "Two floors straight up. I've put you in a bedsitter."

I shuddered. I knew all about bedsitters from reading Barbara Pym novels. They were tiny, mean rooms — rest stops for the desperate. People drank themselves to death in bedsitters or turned on the gas. In one English mystery novel, a little blonde typist named Lyla dies when an axe murderer breaks into her bedsitter,

The room in Earl's Court was clean enough — and efficient as the clerk. Just a fold-up bed, a scrap of blue carpet, a TV and toilet. I unfolded the bed and crawled under the blankets. Soon I started to sweat. I pried open the narrow window. Diesel fumes flooded the room. I threw the covers over me. Too hot. I threw off the covers. Too cold. This went on and on.

Shortly after midnight, I heard a scratching at the window. I threw off the covers in fright. A young girl floated through the half-open window like Cathy in Wuthering Heights. She had long straight black hair and the look of a waif. She sat on the bed. She could not be ignored.

To my horror, I recognized this ghost. She was a younger, braver version of myself.

"So you've been to Africa …" She lit an unfiltered cigarette. French, of course. "And you only stayed two weeks? Weren't you going to live there someday — not just go on safari with a bunch of rich people?"

"Go away." I yanked the covers over my head. "I can't be traveling all the time."

It was useless to argue with this waif — so proud of her backpack, her tattered blue jeans and leather bracelets. She was 22. The age I was when I fled my hick hometown and escaped to Europe. At first, I couldn't have been more scared. I couldn't get the hang of foreign money or maps or phrases. I cried when desk clerks gave me a bad time. But eventually I learned how to get by with sign language and bits of French and help from strangers. The important thing then was to keep traveling. I loved to chuck it all and climb aboard a train.

Now that I was in my thirties, I knew London. I could have showed that waif where to find William Blake's grave and oil paintings of the Bronte sisters.

"I've been lots more places than you have," I told her. "I've got a husband now. And a baby. I can't just move to Africa on a whim."

"You sound just like your mother." She laughed and laughed. Then she floated out the window, as free as the swallows that have circled Earl's Court since its creation.

The next morning, I still felt wretched. But I decided that (as soon as I felt better), I would get back at that smug little ghost by going somewhere she'd never been. Flipping through a tattered guidebook, I settled on Keats House — the last home of John Keats, the doomed young poet who fled to Italy and died of tuberculosis. I had loved a poem of his ever since my stranded childhood."

... And goes on and on and on...

Does anybody know what is the award she won?

It seems that she puts the "award winning" bit at every opportunity she can find, but she never mentions what's the blooming award for or where she got it from. Not that I really care but I was wondering since to me it looks like she is never written any books, seems that she participated with some comments on other books by other authors. So, seems that the Amanda Knox Perugia adventure is going to be her debut, The Cook's Opera Prima, into the world of having a book published.
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:47 pm   Post subject:    

Anne Bremner made the following comment about Frank Sfarzo on her website:

"That is what happened when investigators tested the knife. Publicly, authorities say the October 4 hearing validated of all their forensic claims. But Frank Sfarzo, a journalist in Perugia who runs a blog about this case, has pressed for a clear answer about the test results with regard to the knife, and he can't get one.

Sooner or later, the truth is going to come out, and the truth is that there was no match for Meredith Kercher's DNA on the blade of that knife.
"

I'd like to examine Anne's comments a little more closely. She referred to Frank as a journalist in Perugia. Is Frank a journalist? Does he work for a media organisation? Has he ever worked for a media organisation? I can't find any articles by him anywhere. Does anyone actually know his real name? It seems strange that a reputable and serious journalist would hide behind a stage name.

I think Anne Bremner comment about Frank being a journalist is extremely misleading. It seems Frank is nothing more than a chancer who saw an opportunity to make some money out of Meredith's death by running a blog about the case. I can't understand why Anne Bremner referred to him as a journalist when he clearly isn't. I can't understand why she would rather believe a chancer like Frank rather than the Italian authorities. It makes me seriously question Anne Bremner's judgement and not for the first time.

I have to question Frank's motivation behind his interest in the case. Is he seeking the truth about what happened to Meredith or is he looking for different opportunities to make money out of it through his blog, a possible film or a book?
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:14 am   Post subject:    

Hi Jools,
Hope you had a good Christmas and a happy new year to you!

Want to write like Hemingway? ROFL!!!! Nice one, just brilliant.

It is obvious to me that Dempsey is a fantasist with no grip on reality, I have thought this for some time.

I think she must have been on some very strong hallucinogenics while writing the above.

Having spent most of my life in London I was trying to get a handle on what she was babbling on about, certainly not the place I've spent all those years.

"Earl's Court, that infamous stretch of red brick on London's flyspecked fringe" what absolute total nonsense.

"I phoned a booking agent from the airport — asking for a room, any room. I didn't care where, as long as I could get there fast"

Do you know how big London is deary?
You call yourself a travel writer?

Again - just like this tragic case, a total misrepresentation of actuality from the ignorant arrogant one. Anyone hoping to travel to London for the first time would be seriously misguided in reading her inane drivel.
One thing shines through though as usual, her self promotion. Me me me...


The Machine, a happy new year to you too.
Do you think "eyebrows" Bremner is refering to when Frank was hanging around in the street outside the courthouse pushing in with the rest of the swarm of reporters when the forensic people refused to comment about the knife?
What dramatic language she uses - "a journalist in Perugia who runs a blog about this case, has pressed for a clear answer about the test results with regard to the knife, and he can't get one"
What a drama queen.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:02 am   Post subject:    

TM wrote:

Quote:
I'd like to examine Anne's comments a little more closely. She referred to Frank as a journalist in Perugia. Is Frank a journalist? Does he work for a media organisation? Has he ever worked for a media organisation? I can't find any articles by him anywhere. Does anyone actually know his real name? It seems strange that a reputable and serious journalist would hide behind a stage name.


What I find interesting is that this reference to Frank Sfarzo the journalist came shortly after the Seattle Times quoted Frank Sfarzo the college film professor. While it is possible to be both, it is extremely difficult to find ANY articles published by the journalist or any college that lists the professor in question among its ranks. Frank has written in the comments section of his blog that he was formerly a journalist, but under another name. I suppose his career as a movie maker was also conducted under another name.

At the very least, the Seattle Times should have indicated that this was not his real name. Maybe the journalist was under the impression that Frank Sfarzo was his real name, however. He should have checked. But Frank should have specified in this case. I would imagine Frank's real name is on his press pass or whatever it is that allows him to attend hearings and so on.

TM also wrote:

Quote:
I think Anne Bremner comment about Frank being a journalist is extremely misleading. It seems Frank is nothing more than a chancer who saw an opportunity to make some money out of Meredith's death by running a blog about the case. I can't understand why Anne Bremner referred to him as a journalist when he clearly isn't. I can't understand why she would rather believe a chancer like Frank rather than the Italian authorities. It makes me seriously question Anne Bremner's judgement and not for the first time.


I think it is a question of people helping people. Frank turned his blog over to her, so she had no reason not to give him a bit of a leg up in his new career as a journalist -- or his return to an old career. Whatever.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:00 pm   Post subject: The Stabber and the Strangler   

I hope everyone had a nice Christmas :)

We are now in one of the quiet periods of the case, with little information being released and the beginning of the trial some three weeks away (a long time in cyber terms). These are actually very good times for taking stock of where we now are in the case and for addressing outstanding problems.

Certain outstanding problems (with the crime scene) that have been bothering me are as follows:

1. The bloody handprint on Meredith's wall

2. The bloody knife print on Meredith's bed sheet. This provides us with a problem. What has always bothered me, is that the knife print was on the 'sheet'...not the 'douvet'. The assumption, has been that the wielder placed the knife on the bed some moments after the fatal stab blow...then at some point later, the douvet was placed over (or wrapped around Meredith). Only, this doesn't quite work. Were that the case, we'd expect to see the knife print on the douvet, not the sheet. This leaves several options, as far as I see it.

a) The douvet was already either removed from, or peeled back from the bed, when Meredith was stabbed. If so, why? This wouldn't have been something one would expect in a very small room where space was a premium.

b) The douvet was removed from the bed during the struggle...perhaps Meredith fell on the bed and was dragged off, clutching the douvet as she was dragged away from the bed.

c) The douvet was taken from the bed and usaed to wrap/cover Meredith much earlier in the scenarion then we supposed (one can't imagine the knife wielder to have been clutching a bloody knife for anything more than mere minutes at most)

If it was 'a', the most logical explanation would be that Meredith was already in bed for the night and was either roused from it, or dragged from it (a most unpleasant thought). However, we have a very short time frame for the attack as a whole to have been carried out between 2130, when she was on the phone to her mother (which we still do not know what time ended) and 2235 c. when Guede ran from the scene (meaning the attack had almost certainly finished by this point). By the time of the call, or its completion, it's almost certain the attacker/s had arrived in the cottage and being people Meredith knew, would also have required some time for 'hellos' and 'how are yous', or an argument if that began immediately. I therefore feel, Meredith having gotten in to bed during these activities and within this time frame to be highly unlikely. I am therefore minded to discard 'a' as the scenario.

I have a problem with 'b' for multiple reasons. The attack, whilst it may have began elsewhere, took place in ernest in front of the wardrobe. We know, from the multiple pricks from the knife that it was prolonged...rather then frenzied. The perpetrators, having overwhelmed Meredith, could have carried out the attack anywhere and likewise, during the attack, could have moved her anywhere (onto the bed for example), yet they did not. That means the position in front of the wardrobe was deliberately selected and decided upon. There was a 'reason' for that. Therefore, it's most unlikely the perpetrators would have forced Meredith onto the bed. At the same time, it's also unlikely Meredith would have jumped onto the bed herself for refuge -

i) The douvet was unlikely to have been 'partly pulled back', due to the therefore illogical choice of placement of the clearly very bloody knife...reason would deter the wielder from placing the bloody knife onto a pristine white sheet rather then on the douvet (darker coloured) covered part of the bed. This indicates that there was no douvet on the bed at that point, rather then it merely being pulled back/off to some extent and therefore, the 'pulled back' rather then completely off p[art of scenario 'b' can be discarded.

ii) If such a situation occurs, one either flees and if their way is blocked fights, or retreats to a defensible position such as a corner or wall that can be backed onto with a solid floor below ones feet. A bed is not a good defensible position, since being prone, semi-prone, or even standing upon it (due to its soft and springy nature) puts one at a complete disadvantage. It is also on the other side of the room to the other source of hope to one who may find themselves trapped...the window, which one may attempt to escape from, call for help from, or be seen through by somebody who may lend or call for help. The bed area leaves one not only imobile, but cut off from both the dooor and the window.

iii) When faced with male attackers, there is naturally one purpose for that attack going through a woman's mind...a sexual attack. Therefore, a bed would be the last place a woman would jump onto for refuge. In fact, she would fight to keep away from it. Even were sexual assault not the purpose and the woman was aware of that, getting onto the bed may tempt fate.

iiii) Neither would the douvet have been ripped from the bed in the general struggle, since Meredith would have been what would have been being grabbed by her attackers, not objects around them. Whilst the bed may have been bumped into, that wouldn't have dragged off the douvet.

I am therefore minded that scenario 'b' can also be completely ruled out.

That leaves scenario 'c'. I cannot think of arguments against it and since it is the only one left, it must be this scenario. This is important, not merely for establishing the scenario for its own sake, but because this scenario also tells us some crucial things about the crime, building us a further scenario.

After the fatal blow, the knife was still in the wielder's hand...but, the douvet was taken from the bed and placed over/around Meredith, but whilst this was being done, the knife was 'still' in the wielder's hand. This means, someone 'else' removed the douvet and placed it over Meredith, then the wielder placed the knife on the bed...perhaps after standing in shock for some moments/minutes. This, crucially, contravenes even further any notions of a 'Lone Wolf' attack, for there were at least two people performing actions here.

There is also the bloody handprint on the wall, so far not officially assigned to an individual. Let's see if we can link this into the scenario. This is unlikely to have been Meredith's, since if she was over that side of the room afterv being stabbed there would be far more blood there. The reconstruction also shows that she was stabbed and bled to death in front of the wardrobe. Therefore, the print belongs to one of the attackers. To have made the print on the wall, the whole palm and fingerpads were saturated in blood. I don't believe this print was made by the wielder of the knife, since the palm area gripping the knife handle would have shielded much of it from the blood, much of it instead being on the 'back' of the hand and not necessarily much of it either, since profuse bleeding would not have begun until the knife was withdrawn and the hand wielding the knife would have been moving 'away' from Meredith from that point. However, the palms of whoever 'strangled' Meredith would certainly have been completely saturated in blood, since they would have been right around the bloody and still bleeding wounds. The strangler is also unlikely to have been the knife wielder also because Meredith at this point was on the floor...either kneeling or prone, so the logical plcement down of the knife to free the hands to strangle her would have been on the floor beside her. We know it wasn't on the bed as the douvet had not been removed at this point and why walk all the way over to the bed just to put the knife down anyway? IT also makesd little sense to put the knife down on the floor next to Meredith, pick it up again after, only to go and then place it down again on the pristine white sheet (after just strangling her).

At least, as far as we have been informed, the douvet is not covered in bloody fingerprints (unlike the pillow). This suggest the douvet was removed from the bed 'without' blood on their hands.

Therefore, I feel it can be argued that the order of the events and scenario presented by the crime scene excludes a 'Lone Wolf' attacker. I also believe that it shows that the individual that stabbed Meredith and strangled Meredith was in fact, two seperate individuals. The scenario also clearly suggests a 'third' individual who removed the douvet from the bed and covered Meredith. I believe that it is these anomalies that have caused also the ILE to conclude that the stabber and the strangler were two seperate individuals...Amanda stabbing Meredith, Rudy Guede strangling her and in their scenario, it would then have been Raffaele who covered Meredith with the douvet. The bloody handprint on the wall, can therefore be assigned to Guede, as the strangler. The other essential difference between the stabber and the strangler, is the stabber having put down the knife immediately went into the bathroom to wash their hands, the strangler did not...hence the prolific amount of bloody fingerprints over the scene from one individual, but not from the other.

C Mellas has argued that he bets if one were to measure the handspand of the finger briuising around Meredith's throat it would match that of Guede, or at least, be too large for Amanda's. For once, I agree with him. But, this is not good news for Amanda since the stabber and the strangler were not the same person.

I also feel, just as mooted by the judge, that the fatal knife blow was struck because Meredith screamed. I agree. But since the scream therefore came at the end of the attack and the knife blow swiftly followed (and people were heard by Nara fleeing the scene just after the scream) what was it that happened to cause that scream, as in what was worse then all that had happened hitherto and had 'not' caused her to scream so? I feel the straw that broke the camel's back were Guede's fingers entering her. This is a most unsavoury point to raise, but, it a) explains why the sexual attack did not proceed further and b) most importantly, also excludes Guede from being the wielder of the knife when the blow was struck due to the location of his hand. He could hardly have been sexually assaulting her, threatening her with a knife and holding her in place all at the same time...and we know she was stuggling due to the defensive cuts.

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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:43 pm   Post subject:    

Happy New Year DF2K,

Anne Bremner makes it sound like Frank Sfarzo is an Italian version of Jeremy Paxman or John Humphreys on Newsnight rather than some guy off the street who as far as we know has never worked for any media organisation and hides behind a stage name.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:42 pm   Post subject: Will Justice Be Served?   

Trial of the Century
Italy gears up for the court date of American Amanda Knox, accused of murder. Will justice be served?

...Italy is not exactly devoid of newsworthy events. In the past 12 months this country has had a national election, a major garbage crisis and devastating floods. Yet Knox was named one of the top newsmakers of 2008 by countless Italian news organizations, alongside U.S. President-elect Barack Obama and anti-mafia muckraker Roberto Saviano. Important parliamentarians have visited her in prison. Two Italian-language books about Kercher's murder have focused on Knox as the protagonist, one with her angelic face on the cover. The paddy wagon that carries her to the Perugia courthouse for hearings is a magnet for the paparazzi hoping to get a shot through the blackened windows. Salacious details about her life behind bars—whether true or not—fill the tabloid press in both Italy and Britain...

...Knox's Italian lawyers plan to call about 60 witnesses, many from Seattle, who will fly to Perugia to testify on her behalf. Knox's mother, Edda Mellas, has been the chief defender of her daughter's innocence, insisting that the prosecutor has it wrong. "She has lost a year of her life and deserves a beautiful future," Mellas told the Italian women's magazine Oggi, before comparing her family's situation to that of the Kerchers. "It's hard to say if our situation is worse or not than theirs. They have lost a child; we still have ours."

Whatever the outcome of the criminal trial, it's clear that the focus on the real victim has already been lost in the lead-up to Italy's trial of the admittedly young century. Knox's infamy will only continue to grow as details from the trial make titillating headlines for the next year or longer. And Meredith Kercher will likely be only a small detail among those stories.

Barbie Nadeau


NEWSWEEK

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Offline Mutley


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:09 pm   Post subject:    

Wasn't it Newsweek that not so long ago had Joe Tackypina plastered all over it under the heading ''Defending Knox'' with the usual guff - flawed eveidence, dodgy prosecutor, one perpetrator etc. And nt a word about the victim. Pots and kettles Newsweek!

By the way, what happened to the white knight of lawyers? Have better media opportunites drawn him away?
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Offline DLW


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:41 pm

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:56 pm   Post subject:    

Golly Gee Wilikers. Nick Pisa also reports ‘Foxy Knoxy beats Sarah Palin and Carla Bruni to be highest rated woman in Italian TV poll.’. I guess there’s no place to go but down.

Our Man in Perugia, Frank (is that his name?) has a new post . His New Years Eve prediction is that AK/RS will be found guilty by the upcoming court (mostly due to bias not evidence), but their Supreme Court will overturn the verdict because they really aren’t guilty (beyond reasonable doubt).
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:11 am   Post subject: LOCKING THIS THREAD   

:!: Hello everyone and a Happy New Year to you all! :)

I am now locking this thread. A new main discussion thread has been created - VI. MAIN DISCUSSION, Jan 1 -

Michael

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