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V. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 2 - Dec 31, 08

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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 12:17 am   Post subject:    

:arrow:

_________________
R.I.P
Meredith Kercher.


Last edited by DeathFish 2000 on Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Jumpy


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:03 am   Post subject:    

Yes, I think when the trial comes out and all of the testimony through the statements, we will see how really unstable the defendents are, which will put to rest any questions about how anyone could commit such a crime.
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:35 am   Post subject:    

:arrow:

_________________
R.I.P
Meredith Kercher.


Last edited by DeathFish 2000 on Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Mutley


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:37 am   Post subject:    

I hope hope hope that the request by Meredith Kercher's family to hold the trial behind closed doors is granted. From day one this has been a media circus, with stories and misinformtion being fed to the animals from all sides. If this book is an analysis of the full diary then it presumably did not come from the usual suspects, the Knox / Mellas circus troupe; they would have sanitised it first. So where did it come from.? It only leaves the Sollicito mob in a stitch up operation or the police / prosecutors / or a court insider copying documents for onward sale.

This appears to be a book publicly analysing what may be evidence in the trial before it has been put before the full court. How does court evidence in the hands of the police get into the hands of book writers and journalists? Perhaps the judges should retire and leave everything to a panel of editors from La Stampa Corriere et al. The stench that emanates from Seattle also hangs around the multitude of profiteers in Italy. Tacopina , Ciolino etc jumped on a bandwagon but it was overflowing already. This may be a more academic study than anything that will be cooked up in Seattle but the recipe remains the same. We have already seen the university pounce on the first horse out of the stalls and use the first book as part of a course. The body has paraded on television, it seems most of the witnesses have queued up at TV studios and the local journos have played Sherlock when they stopped getting fed the titbits (A man covered in blood! We've found another suspect!) It may be the usual lazy, sloppy journalism that we have come to expect, but the Times suggests that the friends of Meredith Kercher were talking directly to the author, not being quoted from the usual leaked testimony. The same questions that should be asked of all books/ deals on this should be asked here. Is this a for profit book? Who does the money go to? Who commissioned it? Who provided the material and why? Is it complete and authentic? I'm surprised the police found so few footprints, there are plenty of people from both sides of the atlantic who have merrily waded through the blood on their way to the cash machine.

The police and prosecutors have consistently managed to look like the Keystone Cops. They fell over each other to feed the media and then found the opposition would do it too. Perhaps they are lucky that they are only up against the Knox/ Dempsey/ Heavey / Free Amanda Muppett Show with the collective intelligence of a tomato. They make the Keystone Cops look like Sherlock Homes. I know Italian law is very different to anglo saxon but a cleverer operator may have been able to make much more capital for the defense from this culture of leaks, media frenzy and amateur speculation. Is there a danger that multiple differing testimonies from witnesses on TV will be highlighted by the defense? Motives of witnesses questioned? Did they spruce up their testimony for that interview or three? Can evidence be thrown out because a prejudicial atmosphere has been created by its public airing? Not that any of the authors will care; it will give them something else to milk.

The only people who have shown restraint and dignity in this heart-rending time for them have been the Kercher family.
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 3:09 am   Post subject:    

:arrow:

_________________
R.I.P
Meredith Kercher.


Last edited by DeathFish 2000 on Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline indie


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 4:51 am   Post subject:    

I know I am in the minority on this, but in all honestly I believe an OPEN courtroom is EXACTLY what is needed in this case. I actually wish the Kercher family would see the value in exposing this horrendous crime committed on their lovely daughter. I think it is important for the public to see for themselves the evidence of the horrific behavior of the murderers. When the public has to rely on the reporting of others for information it often gets tainted reflecting the bias of the reporter. But off course, I believe the court should honor the Kercher family's wishes.
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Offline indie


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 5:13 am   Post subject:    

I am unclear on the dates Amanda wrote some of these diary bits that are now surfacing. When did she write about the "shuffling bath mat" scenario? That little description told me she is planning on explaining every shred of evidence with a full blown essay. Yep, the devil will be in her details. No way will she be able to keep all her lies straight in front of the judge.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:40 am   Post subject:    

"And the mother? ... what trasnlator mistake ..."

Maybe.

E la madre? = And the mother?
E' la madre? = Is it the mother?
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:49 am   Post subject:    

Noticably lacking in both Amanda's and Raffaele's diaries is any anger against the "real killers".
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:56 am   Post subject:    

Kernir wrote:
"Judge Heavey should consider before embarking on his flight"

I don't think he cares much.
He may even find Mignini in contempt for not calling him '"your honor" :-)
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Offline Kermit


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:31 am   Post subject: Sunday morning coffee   

bolint wrote:
Kernir wrote: "Judge Heavey should consider before embarking on his flight"

I don't think he cares much. He may even find Mignini in contempt for not calling him '"your honor" :-)


Hi, Bolint. Ref. your and Jools' (¡salu2!) and Nicki's comments on Heavey's letter, there's a sad truth that he (the Team) prefer a certain American view (not shared by most, thank goodness), that American "rules" (laws, way of doing things, cultural standards) apply everywhere in the world.

He writes in his letter to Berlusconi: "Prosecutors in the United States are prohibited by law from making statements to the press: 1) That have a substantial likelihood of heightening public condemnation of the accused; 2) Prosecutors are further required to exercise reasonable care ... "

The crime took place in Italy. Italian laws apply. Why try to convince the Prime Minister of Italy that Amanda should get a change of venue on the basis of references to American law? The only thing I can think of is that Heavey thinks that his interpretation of American law should apply to the virtual oasis that surrounds Amanda, like some sort of aura of sovereignty.

In fact, I think Heavey was very successful in convincing Judge Micheli that Heavey's "official" judicial analysis of Amanda's unjust confinement - written on State of Washington letterhead and based on unsubstantiated arguments of illegalities by Matteini and Mignini in the investigation process - would be used to throw out any request for extradition should Amanda ever find herself under American jurisdiction at any point before her date of trial.

==========

Bluetit, thanks for the recent Times link on the new Amanda book

Mutley, you said "the Times suggests that the friends of Meredith Kercher were talking directly to the author, not being quoted from the usual leaked testimony." I don't see that in the article.

The article refers to two friends of the victim, Amy Frost and Robyn Butterworth. Of Amy it says: "The book quotes testimony to police from Amy Frost, a British student friend of Kercher".

Of Robyn the article states: "Robyn Butterworth, a British friend of Kercher who saw Knox at police headquarters, gave evidence that Knox ..."

Those quotes clearly show that whatever statements appear in the article by the friends are gleaned from their testimony to police, not to John Follain. (The paragraph which starts "Several witnesses quoted in the book depict Knox and Sollecito as ..." winds up again saying that those comments came from police testimony).

I agree 100% with you that the Kercher family's attitude and actions have been beyond reproach. But I also think that Meredith's friends have maintained a posture which similarly supports the Kerchers in dignity and restraint.
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:31 am   Post subject:    

:arrow:

_________________
R.I.P
Meredith Kercher.


Last edited by DeathFish 2000 on Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 12:05 pm   Post subject:    

bolint wrote:
Noticably lacking in both Amanda's and Raffaele's diaries is any anger against the "real killers".


Quite so.

When considering the question of Meredith's suffering as she died, it would be the most natural thing to curse and ponder the identity and motive of the killer. "What bastard did it?"
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 12:26 pm   Post subject:    

indie wrote:
I know I am in the minority on this, but in all honestly I believe an OPEN courtroom is EXACTLY what is needed in this case. I actually wish the Kercher family would see the value in exposing this horrendous crime committed on their lovely daughter. I think it is important for the public to see for themselves the evidence of the horrific behavior of the murderers. When the public has to rely on the reporting of others for information it often gets tainted reflecting the bias of the reporter. But off course, I believe the court should honor the Kercher family's wishes.


I agree with you, Indie.

And because of the nature of this trial I don't believe the judge will close the court, but I do think he will try to accomodate the Kercher's wishes in some way.

I think it is possible he will make some instruction to the media covering the case from the court that certain material, video and pictures related to Meredith should not be published and any court journalist breaking that rule will be in contempt of the court. Not every detail of Meredith's person and the humiliation and suffering she endured need be shown to demonstrate the evidence on which the outcome of the trial will be decided.
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 12:53 pm   Post subject:    

:arrow:

_________________
R.I.P
Meredith Kercher.


Last edited by DeathFish 2000 on Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 4:48 pm   Post subject:    

Kermit wrote:
"The crime took place in Italy. Italian laws apply. Why try to convince the Prime Minister of Italy that Amanda should get a change of venue on the basis of references to American law?"

In international cases this happens. Countries are usually biased.
For example, years ago there were two British nurses condemned to death in Saudi Arabia for killing an Australian(?) nurse.
They had also confessed, then retracted, citing "pressure".
As I remember there was similar "support" in Britain to save them from the Saudi law.
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Offline Kermit


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 5:20 pm   Post subject:    

bolint wrote:
... years ago there were two British nurses condemned to death in Saudi Arabia for killing an Australian(?) nurse.
They had also confessed, then retracted, citing "pressure". As I remember there was similar "support" in Britain to save them from the Saudi law.


In international (and local) cases, it's natural that family and supporters of defendees try to obtain clemency (in addition to the purely legal efforts of the local - Saudi or Italian - legal teams) . Maybe it may obtain results.

What is counterproductive is to try to convince a foreign power (via a letter to the prime minister) that unsupported conclusions by an American judge, based on an American legal opinion, and presented on official State of Washington paper should be taken into account to change the direction of the judicial process of this case.

In this case, in fact, it was so counterproductive that it contributed to Judge Micheli's decision to keep Amanda in Capanne prison rather than considering house arrest or some other arrangement.
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 5:29 pm   Post subject:    

bolint,
Having been to Saudi many times in my job, I would hardly draw any similarities between them and a civilised western european country like Italy.
Slavery still exists in Saudi for instance.
When in jail in Saudi, you are not talking about human rights as they don't exist. There is no AC you do not have TV or a kitchen or a bathroom like Knox enjoys.
The police are like animals - barbaric, and I know as I was deported for being sat in the back passenger seat of a parked car outside a supermarket waiting for my friends doing their food shopping when a Saudi teenager shunted into the back of the car.
You are talking dungeons here and living in fear during your incarceration.
I was 4 months in jail there and starving most of the time.
To suggest otherwise is naive and to describe the two places as alike is also naive.

_________________
R.I.P
Meredith Kercher.


Last edited by DeathFish 2000 on Sun Nov 30, 2008 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 5:37 pm   Post subject:    

Kermit wrote:
What is counterproductive is to try to convince a foreign power (via a letter to the prime minister) that unsupported conclusions by an American judge, based on an American legal opinion, and presented on official State of Washington paper should be taken into account to change the direction of the judicial process of this case.

In this case, in fact, it was so counterproductive that it contributed to Judge Micheli's decision to keep Amanda in Capanne prison rather than considering house arrest or some other arrangement.


Hi Kermit,

I don't think there was ever any chance of Amanda Knox or Raffaele Sollecito being granted house arrest. The evidence against them is too strong and they are considered by the Italian authorities to be mentally unstable and dangerous.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 7:51 pm   Post subject:    

DF2K wrote:
"Having been to Saudi many times in my job, I would hardly draw any similarities between them and a civilised western european country like Italy."

I didn't compare the laws or rights, just the reaction.

(As for your case, you don't have much chance against an Arab there. And it will not change while there is oil.)
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 7:57 pm   Post subject: Mad Cow?   

Is the Cook suffering from Alzheimer, Mad Cow or is she just plain ignorant?

Being as she says ‘Italian woman’ you would expect her to know at least the geography map of Italy, one would think that this is basic for the book that she is writing. Get your locations right!

According to her ‘Raffaele stays in Bari’. Bari of course is in the region of Puglia happens to be the place he comes from, not where he is in prison.

Anyone that has follow the Meredith Kercher murder case would know that Raffaele Sollecito is in Terni prison in the Umbria region.

Also Rudy is been transfered to Viterbo not Viterbro. Dyslexia rules!

Probably her poster Yummi once again will give her a quick lesson, this time on Italian geography. :D

-Posted by the Cook at 11/29/08 1:34 p.m.
Big news for today (Nov. 29) is that Rudy has been transferred to a new prison in Viterbro. His lawyers say this is not unusual and that nothing else in his status has changed. Amanda remains in Capanne Prison, about an hour's drive from Perugia. Raffaele stays in Bari.

http://www.iltamtam.it/ArticleDetail.as ... leId=10378
****-
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 7:59 pm   Post subject:    

Kermit wrote:

"What is counterproductive ..."


Especially because it was done so arrogantly which of course prompted arrogant answers . And in that he was no match for the Italians. :-)
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:34 pm   Post subject:    

bolint wrote:
DF2K wrote:
"Having been to Saudi many times in my job, I would hardly draw any similarities between them and a civilised western european country like Italy."

I didn't compare the laws or rights, just the reaction.

(As for your case, you don't have much chance against an Arab there. And it will not change while there is oil.)


bolint,
You painted a picture as if Knox's imprisonment and the reaction to it is the same as the nurses in Saudi Arabia, when in fact the two cases are totally different.
Those nurses (and I remember the case very well) were wrongly imprisoned on invented charges (something the Saudi's have a propensity for when it comes to foreigners) but Knox is awaiting trial on firm grounds that she is involved in this crime.
Your defence of Knox on here is suspect.
It seems to go above the "truth" you say you seek.
Knox is not in prison on trumped up charges and will be dealt with under Italian law and that is that.
Having spent the best part of 25 years working in the oil industry travelling around the world and a lot of it in the middle east, I do not need you to share with me your wisdom that I don't have much chance against an Arab as you say.

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Meredith Kercher.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:25 pm   Post subject:    

"Those nurses (and I remember the case very well) were wrongly imprisoned on invented charges "

That's what I don't believe. The claim that their confession was beaten out of them is just as bullshit as AK's explanation.
But it seems we won't agree on that.

"Your defence of Knox on here is suspect. "

1. What defence?
2. Suspect of what?


"Knox is not in prison on trumped up charges and will be dealt with under Italian law and that is that."

I agree.

"Having spent the best part of 25 years working in the oil industry travelling around the world and a lot of it in the middle east"

Forgive me that I did not know it.
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:33 pm   Post subject:    

I'm not sure how long the supporters of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito will be able to pretend that Amanda and Raffaele don't have some serious, deep-rooted psychological problems.

The glimpses we've had of them since Meredith's murder have given us bigger a picture of two individuals whose behaviour was the exact opposite of what you would expect of people whose friend had been horrifically murdered.

Amanda and Raffaele kissing in front of the watching press outside the cottage where Meredith had been sexually assaulted, attacked viciously with a knife and left to die in a pool of her own blood struck everybody - the press and the general public alike- as inappropriate and strange behaviour. I dread to think what Meredith's family made of their behaviour. It was grossly insensitive at best.

Amanda's parents argued that they were comforting each other. However, the vivid CCTV footage of Amanda and Raffaele kissing, petting and laughing in the boutique like they didn't have a care in the world a couple of days of Meredith's murder showed that what happened outside the cottage wasn't an isolated instance. And they certainly weren't comforting each other.

Amanda's and Raffale's behaviour at the police station before they were questioned disturbed everybody who witnessed it. Whilst Amanda's friends and housemates were devastated and traumatised; crying and comforting each other, Amanda and Raffaele were kissing, caressing each other, and laughing and joking.

[Amanda] was in front of Raffaele. I remember that she stuck her tongue out at him, she made faces and then they’d laugh and kiss each other. In that moment I thought she was going crazy, that she was really crazy,” Frost testified.

"Robyn Butterworth, a British friend of Kercher who saw Knox at police headquarters, gave evidence that Knox “seemed to me to be completely lacking any emotion”. Butterworth added that Knox and Sollecito “sent each other kisses by smacking their lips. At a certain point she stretched out on a few chairs and he caressed her feet. It was strange, it wasn’t a nice thing to watch”. " (The Times, 30 November 2008).

It wasn't just Meredith's friends who were taken aback by Amanda's and Raffaele's bizarre behaviour at the police station. The in-house interpreter made a similar observation:

They hugged in the waiting-room of the police-station, and they kissed as if they were at – I don’t like to say it, well almost as if they were at -- a party.” And when he/she accompanied Amanda Knox to have her fingerprints taken by the technicians, s/he was amazed to see her hitting herself violently, beating her fists against her head.

There were other aspects of Amanda Knox's behaviour that struck Meredith's friends as being odd. Robyn Butterworth stated:

"I remember Amanda also kept going on about how she found the body. It was as if she was proud to have been the one who found it," she said. "I just remember thinking at the time at the police station that Amanda's behaviour was very strange. It was as if she wasn't bothered at all."

"She recalled that Ms Knox, speaking loudly in English "to all and sundry" had described returning to the house to find the front door open and then going into the bathroom that she and Meredith shared. "She was saying how she had seen blood on the floor – I remember her saying it was menstrual blood. She also said she had taken a shower. I remember her also saying that the toilet was full of shit. She kept saying the word shit over and over again. This behaviour seemed a little strange to me." (The Times, 15 November 2007).

It wasn't just the people at the police station who found Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito strange. The judges at the Italian Supreme court told Raffaele:

"You are a flight risk because of the gravity of the charges.Your danger to society matches your weak character and your personality, which we can't define in terms of harmless juvenile stereotypes, since the context includes the habitual use of drugs"

The judge at the preliminary hearings, Claudia Matteini, told Amanda:

"The homicide of Meredith was certainly not an impulsive act. On the contrary, all of the small wounds with the last fatal one demonstrate cold calculation within the context of pre-planned conduct, the characteristics of which are clear signs of perversion demonstrated by a 'strange' enjoyment of her suffering.
Meredith was a girl full of life and enthusiasm, who --for the sole purpose of having some pleasure and sensation during a boring day spent smoking joints-- was subject to acts of brutality and cruelty that are disgusting to any normal person.
In such a situation the danger of repetition of the crime is certainly very high and can't be considered to have diminished due to the mere passage of time, during which -- as a reminder -- you have never shown any sign of remorse or reconsideration of your life
."

"Your conduct after the murder is symptomatic of a personality which, considering your young age, provokes no small measure of dismay and apprehension, considering how extremely easy it was for you to control your states of mind."
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:43 pm   Post subject:    

" And when he/she accompanied Amanda Knox to have her fingerprints taken by the technicians, s/he was amazed to see her hitting herself violently, beating her fists against her head. "

Was it on the first day or after the confession?
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:46 pm   Post subject:    

It was before the confession. I think was 5 November.
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Offline Kermit


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 10:18 pm   Post subject: Settling accounts   

I'm really not interested in Amanda's list of lovers, but Heavey was.

A minor curiosity: Heavey states: "She lists seven people with whom she has had sexual contact 'in general'. The first five are obviously not Italians, number 7 is Rafaele Sollecito and number 6 also appears to be Italian."

So, Heavey's tally would seem to be 5 Americans and 2 Italians.

However, the Times articles states: "In another list, Knox names four men in Seattle and New York, and three in Florence and Perugia with whom she has had sex."

Maybe there's no contradiction between the two lists: the squaring off of the accounts could be that one of the three encounters in Italy was with a non-Italian.

Nevertheless, my suspicious mind makes me think that this is another (minor) case of spin, where Heavey would have had us believe that Amanda only had two lovers since coming to Europe. ((Heavey was harping on in his letter to Berlusconi about Amanda's list because, according to him: "The character assassination of Amanda Knox is improper. The information is false."))
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 10:26 pm   Post subject:    

What is the status of the parking lot's CCTV footage?

Some TV reports say it is Meredith, others say it is Amanda.
Meredith, however, as I understand, left the house
in blue jeans, per Raffaele.

But if she is neither Meredith, nor Amanda, then it sinks the Lone Wolf theory.


As for Rudy, does he at least admit, that he is the man on that CCTV footage?
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 10:30 pm   Post subject:    

"5 Americans and 2 Italians "

The man on train?
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 10:32 pm   Post subject:    

:arrow:

_________________
R.I.P
Meredith Kercher.


Last edited by DeathFish 2000 on Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 10:47 pm   Post subject:    

:arrow:

_________________
R.I.P
Meredith Kercher.


Last edited by DeathFish 2000 on Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline DLW


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:01 am   Post subject:    

‘What is the status of the parking lot's CCTV footage?’
‘As for Rudy, does he at least admit, that he is the man on that CCTV footage?’…bolint

Not according to Rudy’s lawyer, who said it wasn’t him. Frank seems almost positive it wasn’t him either. The girl dressed in light colored clothing is a mystery. Meredith was wearing darker colored clothing, and according to her friends it was too early. As for Amanda the jury is out. I don’t know what the cops think, but that footage doesn’t seem to be sufficient for the court case
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:11 am   Post subject: Pauvre Candace!   

Bolint wrote, in reply to Bluetit:

Quote:
"And the mother? ... what translator mistake ..."

Maybe.

E la madre? = And the mother?
E' la madre? = Is it the mother?


I am just catching up with all the blogs and boards after being away, so forgive me if I am rehashing a point that has already been resolved. First of all, I presume the original was in English, was translated into Italian, and then was translated back into English. Is this correct? If so, then a translation error could easily have been made at some point.

But also, if the original was handwritten English, then perhaps a transcription error is involved. I've been trying to work out what words could have been written in place of "and the mother," but so far nothing makes sense in the context. However, neither does "and the mother," at least for me. Or am I missing something? AK is talking about Meredith dying, not about her mother's reaction.

OT but kind of funny: I just now read the string of posts by and replies to "cherchezlafemme" on the PI Reader blog. Since I know Candace has "friends" who read this board and report back to her, perhaps one of them could tell her that once again she seems to have been led astray by one of her regulars.

If in fact she and/or said regulars have once again taken this poster to be me (this would not be the first time), and if this is the reason for their cold reception, then they are totally off base and have done a disservice to clf. Maybe they thought it was some other poster (i.e., not me but someone else), but it sure sounds to me as if she/he stands suspected of being me.

I read the posts in question and do not think clf sounds like me or indeed like anyone pretending to be a first-time poster. I think he/she really is a first-time poster. Please, dear friend(s) of Candace, tell Candace that although she has many fine qualities, detecting the identity of posters is apparently not one of them. She wrongly and loudly accused me of being the anonymous poster who posted something hideous about her on Frank's blog last February, and only backed down when Frank vouched for me -- even though I was nowhere near a computer when the post was made and have store receipts to prove it, which I offered to produce. Then, more recently, daisysteiner was wrongly accused by Candace's science expert Funnycat of being "skeptical bystander."

If clf is now suspected of being skeptical bystander, then let me say on behalf of poor clf that I am not she/he and he/she is not me. I am a registered poster on the PI blogs (all the blogs) and post under just one handle. It is neither skeptical bystander nor cherchezlafemme. In addition, I don't post on Candace's blog any more and have not for a very long time. If Candace could take a minute and look at the comments to her first blogs on this case, she could easily find my PI handle. (Hint: it is a French word.) For the record,I would never use anything remotely resembling cherchez la femme, which is attributed to Victor Hugo (Vous connaissez sa maxime, lorsqu'il veut découvrir un secret quelconque: cherchez la femme; dans ce cas la femme n'a pas été difficile à trouver.) and was supposedly adopted into English use and crossed the Atlantic by 1909. It was well enough known there by that date for O. Henry to use it as the title of a story - Cherchez La Femme, which includes this line: "Ah! yes, I know most time when those men lose money you say 'Cherchez la femme' - there is somewhere the woman."

But I digress. Candace knows my "handle" or "moniker" on the PI, because I told her what it was. And I stopped using it ages ago. I don't even post on the PI, anywhere. Luckily, I stopped posting of my own volition and have never been banned from there or anywhere else.

Anyway, good luck to cherchezlafemme, whoever she/he is.

P.S. Maybe I have it all wrong and "cherchezlafemme" is actually suspected of being someone else who posts here. The reason I think she/he is suspected of being me has to do with the comment about age that was made. Candace knows how old I am (and boy am I old!). Cherchez l'erreur!


Last edited by Skeptical Bystander on Mon Dec 01, 2008 6:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 6:28 am   Post subject:    

"Not according to Rudy’s lawyer, who said it wasn’t him. Frank seems almost positive it wasn’t him either. The girl dressed in light colored clothing is a mystery."

Then Rudy, the mystery woman and the mystery man all were there. It must haven been a Lone Wolves Congress in the cottage.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 6:36 am   Post subject:    

Bolint wrote:

Quote:
"Not according to Rudy’s lawyer, who said it wasn’t him. Frank seems almost positive it wasn’t him either. The girl dressed in light colored clothing is a mystery."

Then Rudy, the mystery woman and the mystery man all were there. It must haven been a Lone Wolves Congress in the cottage.


I don't know if anyone has shown that the tape is legitimate, that the mystery man and woman were in the cottage, etc. It has been stated on "high authority" (Frank) that the MM is not Rudy and, according to many witnesses (including Raffaele), Meredith was not wearing a light-colored skirt the night she was killed.

For me, the real mystery today is the footage itself. Is it legitimate or is it not? Who are the people in it? Can positive IDs be made or are the figures too indistinct, like the CCTV footage that supposedly showed a woman who could have been Amanda Knox?
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 7:38 am   Post subject:    

"For me, the real mystery today is the footage itself. Is it legitimate or is it not? Who are the people in it? Can positive IDs be made or are the figures too indistinct, like the CCTV footage that supposedly showed a woman who could have been Amanda Knox? "

A small part of the CCTV footage is in this report:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ0VavpuTnE

Assuming it is Rudy, why is he denying it? He admits being there about that time, what damage could do to Rudy also admitting that he is on the CCTV?

If it is Rudy, why is he coming out of the garage?
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:46 pm   Post subject:    

bolint wrote:
"For me, the real mystery today is the footage itself. Is it legitimate or is it not? Who are the people in it? Can positive IDs be made or are the figures too indistinct, like the CCTV footage that supposedly showed a woman who could have been Amanda Knox? "

A small part of the CCTV footage is in this report:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ0VavpuTnE

Assuming it is Rudy, why is he denying it? He admits being there about that time, what damage could do to Rudy also admitting that he is on the CCTV?

If it is Rudy, why is he coming out of the garage?



Several observations from memory about that video:

The timestamps show the clips are shown in the wrong order.

MM walks from the garage some minutes before the white shadow walks past.

I'm not aware that Rudy has denied it was him.

Meredith's friends will know what she was wearing, she spent the evening with them.

Raffaele was at pains to say that Meredith was wearing her boyfriend's jeans when she went out that afternoon.

Meredith was found with jeans nearby with no sign of a white skirt.

The investigators will have been able to enhance that video and even if it isn't good enough for a positive identification in court, they may still find it usefull in the investigation.

We've only found out since, that the car park camera was 10 minutes out and would make the white shadow close to 9:00pm.

I must check out on the times and the source of the denials before I say any more
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:21 pm   Post subject:    

That was quick:

The latest images of Meredith Kercher and Rudy Guédé front of the house of murder is unique to Open Studio, which has displayed in its Tg of Italia Uno. This is a movie camera taken from a car park in Perugia. Meredith was dell'ivoriano company and the two were returning home verse the hours 20:53 of the first in November 2007. The video denies the story of supertestimone Albanian Hekuran Kokomani.

The heads would have seen together after the crime Rudy, Raffaele and Amanda: man says he remembered very well that rained that night to divert. Ma le immagini del video mostrano che non pioveva. But video images show that it does not rain. Collapses the story and the alibi of Guédé Rudy, who had confessed to be under house Mez because he had an appointment with the student English.

For the investigators would be the last images of Meredith alive: a few moments later he would have consumed the tragedy.The number 7 camera installed in a parking lot of the Umbrian capital also incorporates the entrance of the home theater of murder.


Google translation from TGcom

When the video was leaked, it was "assumed to dispute" Kokomani's testimony because it wasn't raining. Frank was very keen on the lack of rain and said he'd already seen the video.

I believe there was some minutes between the images of MM and white blur, but given a time of 9:53 both of them are shown walking past after 9:00pm.

"Some people" disputed the fact that the video showed Rudy (it didn't look like the way he walks, not his build, etc. etc.). Meredith was disputed on the grounds of quality of image and the white skirt etc.)

BUT:

If white blur walked past at 9:03 or a few minutes later, could it not have been Amanda Knox?

She's well known for wearing a white skirt.


EDIT: CONFUSION!

Up to now the attention of investigators and lawyers had concentrated on shooting the first evening of November. And those two people, one of whom dressed in clear, you see the cameras. Someone has suggested initially that it was Amanda, Meredith someone else (who wore a plush blue and a pair of jeans editor's note.). In reality the two individuals have never been fully identified even though the police would have the full list of people who went to the parking lot to retrieve the car.

At the time - the day after the murder - watching the movie the police officer noted that the schedule of the cameras was moved forward 10 minutes. Now look at this, we learn that the black point of the Post, warned by the woman who had received threats by telephone and had found the next morning two phones in the garden (those stolen in Meredith) made maneuvering in front of the camera at 12.35 and 57 seconds. And a lot before pretend - according to the prosecutor - that phone call to 112, according to tabulations from defenders, is of 12.51. Raffaele e Amanda cercavano un alibi, è la tesi accusatoria. Raffaele and Amanda seeking an alibi, is the accusations. But the video they were stuck, at least in this respect....


Google translation of La Nazione

So the time according to this was 8:43pm and not after 9:00pm.

A very long time ago there was another CCTV video showing (from another camera giving a quite close up rear view) showing what was said to be Amanda wearing a white skirt and arriving at the cottage at 8:43pm.

Michael has reference to it in the timeline with a question mark.
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Offline daisysteiner


Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:59 pm

Posts: 490

PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:07 pm   Post subject:    

Does the skirt seen in the CCTV closely match anything owned by Knox or Kercher? I must confess that I didn't know that Amanda was known to wear/own a white skirt like the one shown, but I freely admit to having read everything on this case. If the police have found the outfit in the CCTV in Knox's possesion then what are the chance that the figure in the CCTV is someone else? I think I could match the outfit even if I cannot see the face of the person. Also, re: CCTV, people have identifiable movements. From the way the figures hold themselves when they walk, a forensic examination should give an "on balance of probabilities" standard answer at the very least.

IN regard to the new Amanda book, i think that is as distasteful as the cook's plan to write a book. Not only is it potentially prejudical to the case, it's morally out of order to do something like this before a conviction. I am convinced of Knox's guilt as the next person but I think she is still entitled to her trial and the opportunity to a fair trial at that. I think her parents fundraiser was utterly vile but at least they have done it for the first trial and not to raise funds for an appeal following conviction, now that would be distasteful indeed. Anyone profiteering from this case is sick. Any profits from this book or the cook's book should be given to victim's charities and/or the Kerchers. I actually find the adverts on this site a bit off but I appreciate that costs need to be covered, this is the best way to do it, and any money actually made is minimal.

In terms of the trial, I agree that the trial should be restricted but not closed completely. They should allow a couple of journalists/photographers into the court room to cover the case for AP or Reuters. My reasoning for this is thus: The Kercher's do not need a circus, or rather any more circusy than this is going to be already. Also, Knox & Sollecito's evidence needs to be heard in public so their families and lawyers have no opportunity to spin things as they have to date. The Knox Diary has been a good example of spin on both sides so far, allowing court testimony to be edited/misreported would be a slur on Meredith's memory. No party in this case is above spin, with the exception of the Kerchers. In my opinion, Knox's lawyers and family are prepared to argue black is white, even if there is cast iron evidence that Amanda is lying. This is the very reason they should not be given an opportunity to paint Amanda in any other light than she puts herself.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:08 pm   Post subject:    

Brian wrote:
"We've only found out since, that the car park camera was 10 minutes out and would make the white shadow close to 9:00pm."

10 minutes, but in the opposite direction. So 8:53 becomes 8:43.
I think this makes improbable that it was Meredith. Though I don't know how reliable is her friends' timing of her departure.


Rudy in the German diary says that he arrived there around 8:30.

"Then I headed for Meredith’s house. With all the
running around I did, I think it would have been around
8:30, approximately. Because we were supposed to
see each other at that time, even though I didn’t have a
watch I tried to arrive on time, because I usually arrive
late. As I arrived in front of the house, I noticed a white
car with headlights on, and a Drug-Dealer I often saw
on Garibaldi Avenue, but I didn’t make much of this,
and I went into the yard. I knocked on the door, but no
one answered. I went downstairs to the guys’ place,
but no one was there either. So then, I waited in the
yard."
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Offline daisysteiner


Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:59 pm

Posts: 490

PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:08 pm   Post subject:    

Edit to the above: I freely admit to NOT having read everything on this case!! Whoops!!
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:13 pm   Post subject:    

"A very long time ago there was another CCTV video showing (from another camera giving a quite close up rear view) showing what was said to be Amanda wearing a white skirt and arriving at the cottage at 8:43pm"

I see the correction to 8:43PM, and if indeed there was another CCTV footage with 8:43 earlier (and that with a correct clock) then the mystery woman arrival is fixed at least.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:16 pm   Post subject:    

"I didn't know that Amanda was known to wear/own a white skirt like the one shown"

She was wearing one all day long the next day as clearly seen on press videos.
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Offline Kermit


User avatar


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:37 am

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:16 pm   Post subject: Synchronise watches   

Brian S. wrote:
So the time according to this was 8:43pm and not after 9:00pm.


This Times article from a year ago stated (at a moment when most timings were still very general) that the image of the supposed Amanda on the CCTV was at (exactly) 8:43 p.m.
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Offline Fly by Night


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:09 pm

Posts: 1014

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:33 pm   Post subject: Re: Sunday morning coffee   

Kermit wrote:
The crime took place in Italy. Italian laws apply. Why try to convince the Prime Minister of Italy that Amanda should get a change of venue on the basis of references to American law? The only thing I can think of is that Heavey thinks that his interpretation of American law should apply to the virtual oasis that surrounds Amanda, like some sort of aura of sovereignty.

In fact, I think Heavey was very successful in convincing Judge Micheli that Heavey's "official" judicial analysis of Amanda's unjust confinement - written on State of Washington letterhead and based on unsubstantiated arguments of illegalities by Matteini and Mignini in the investigation process - would be used to throw out any request for extradition should Amanda ever find herself under American jurisdiction at any point before her date of trial.


Heavey did even more damage to himself. Rumor has it that Pres. Elect Obama will be nominating Hillary Clinton as Secretary of State this morning. This comes as a crushing blow to Heavey who clearly had his eye on the position. Heavey's brazen attempt to demonstrate expertise in top-level foreign affairs was an utter failure.
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Offline daisysteiner


Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:59 pm

Posts: 490

PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:41 pm   Post subject:    

bolint wrote:
"I didn't know that Amanda was known to wear/own a white skirt like the one shown"

She was wearing one all day long the next day as clearly seen on press videos.


I've only seen press videos where you can see Amanda & Raffaele's top halves but not thir bottom halves! The same pics where you can see Knox's neck with the scratch mark. Happy to accept though that there is a white skirt owned by Knox and she has been seen wearing it :D
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:47 pm   Post subject:    

Edda Mellas, the mother of 20-year-old Amanda Knox, said at the weekend her daughter had reverted to her original story that she spent the whole of the night of November 1, when Kercher was killed, at her Italian boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito's flat.

However, the Italian daily Corriere della Sera said a CCTV camera captured Knox as she let herself in by the front door at 8.43pm. Police sources were unable to confirm the newspaper's account. The moment at which the young American is said to have been filmed is 17 minutes before the estimated time of Kercher's death, as reported by the judge overseeing the inquiry. According to forensic experts, there is a margin of error of about one hour either way.

The newspaper said the images registered by the CCTV camera, in a nearby car park, were quite sharp...


The Guardian 13th November 2007

This video(or pics from it) did come out some time later. I'm still trying to find it although I don't remember it showing her by the front door. Nor is it the camera by the ramp.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:54 pm   Post subject:    

Jovana Popovic's testimony:
"incamminata versa casa alle 20.20 circa, raggiungendo l'abitazione del Sollecito per disdire l'appuntamento, alle 20.40 circa'

So she went "at about 20:40" to Sollecito's place (and there she spoke to Amanda on the intercom).
Clearly the timing is approximate.

Amanda sent an SMS to Lumumba at 20:35, it may have been after hte Popovic visit.

Sollecito's house is about 500m from the cottage, that is 5 minutes in fast walk.

Amanda could have been there at 20:43.
(Probably learning only from Raffaele's account whatever happened to Amélie)
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:05 pm   Post subject:    

Brian citing Guardian:
"However, the Italian daily Corriere della Sera said a CCTV camera captured Knox as she let herself in by the front door at 8.43pm."

Maybe the solution of this camera enigma is that there is only one camera footage, the one at the garage.
The early reports (and probably all police documents) gave the corrected time (as the 10 minute difference was documented at the time of seizure), but the Postal Police report was not corrected at that time for some reason and this error became clear only this summer.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:17 pm   Post subject:    

daisysteiner wrote:
"I've only seen press videos where you can see Amanda & Raffaele's top halves but not thir bottom halves!"

Amanda in white skirt on 2 November:
http://www.italymag.co.uk/files/story/l ... 042008.jpg

Panty shop (it was on 3 November, i think, she didn't have any other clothes, all sealed in the cottage)
http://cronacaeattualita.blogosfere.it/ ... ffaele.jpg
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Offline Kermit


User avatar


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:37 am

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:30 pm   Post subject: Reporter dressing up as suspect   

Brian S. wrote:
The newspaper said the images registered by the CCTV camera, in a nearby car park, were quite sharp... This video(or pics from it) did come out some time later. I'm still trying to find it although I don't remember it showing her by the front door. Nor is it the camera by the ramp.


I just wanted to confirm that you're not thinking of the Studio Aperto "journalistic reconstruction", which had many of us fooled for a week or so.

I repost from Haloscan:

"Abdar / Goofy, let me give you a hand. I think I told Chris M about the unrectified confusion caused by the "photo" of Amanda "caught" on the carpark CCTV. Well, I found the evening newscast video:
http://video.centrodiascolto.it/public/notizie/2007/11/12/video/211206.wmv
((Kermit 01-12-2008: what a shame, I didn't save this video and it seems to be no longer available))

From 34" to 1'16", you see the journalistic "reconstruction". In particular, at 39" you see the lady journalist converted in "Amanda" in the classic CCTV image that was published even in serious papers as actually being Amanda,
http://www.repubblica.it/2006/05/gallerie/cronaca/immagini-tv-perugia/2.html

(you can see it was even published in the paper with the same TV station's logo in the lower right from the reconstruction news cast), even though it’s in daylight, and in a situation (walking out of the carpark) which doesn’t mesh with Amanda's supposed movements (ie., walking down from Piazza Grimana / RS's place)

The CCTV images which should exist - and should be in ILE hands - would be from this camera which our own Italian TrueCrime Weblog poster Middie photographed (BTW, great photo) in a visit to Perugia back in December.
http://thumbsnap.com/v/bAPWyCiD.jpg

(keep clicking until you get an image which is more or less full screen size)
Middie's CCTV points directly at the road and the entrance gate to the cottage parking area from the street."
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:44 pm   Post subject: White skirt and mop   

Bolint wrote:

Quote:
daisysteiner wrote:
"I've only seen press videos where you can see Amanda & Raffaele's top halves but not thir bottom halves!"

Amanda in white skirt on 2 November:
http://www.italymag.co.uk/files/story/l ... 042008.jpg

Panty shop (it was on 3 November, i think, she didn't have any other clothes, all sealed in the cottage)
http://cronacaeattualita.blogosfere.it/ ... ffaele.jpg



For what it's worth, here is what Raffaele wrote in the diary sold to and published by La Nazione. He's referring to the how AK was dressed when she returned to his apartment on November 2 with the MOP.

Non mi ricordo come era vestita il giorno 1, ma sono certo che lei si fosse cambiata e che aveva messo la gonna bianca e le sue solite scarpe nere da trekking.

I don't remember how she was dressed day 1, but I'm sure that she had changed and had put on the white skirt and her usual black hiking shoes.
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Offline daisysteiner


Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:59 pm

Posts: 490

PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:45 pm   Post subject:    

bolint wrote:
daisysteiner wrote:
"I've only seen press videos where you can see Amanda & Raffaele's top halves but not thir bottom halves!"

Amanda in white skirt on 2 November:
http://www.italymag.co.uk/files/story/l ... 042008.jpg

Panty shop (it was on 3 November, i think, she didn't have any other clothes, all sealed in the cottage)
http://cronacaeattualita.blogosfere.it/ ... ffaele.jpg


Thanks for these bolint, very much appreciated! I had seen the shop picture before but didn't think it was conclusive in terms of is it a skirt, trousers etc The first picture seems to clear this up though. What is the evidence status of this CCTV film? I've read admissible/inadmissible on two different sites, does anyone have a definitive answer? If that CCTV is evidence, and it is proven that the person in white is Amanda, then I would not like to be in her shoes for A. sentencing or B. explaining to her parents WTF she has been up to and why they just bankrupted themselves for a liar. Apologies for raking over old ground people but if this is right, it's case iron proof of Amanda's alibi being utter rubbish. And it strengthens Sollecito's case that he wasn't at the cottage because the white figure is alone.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:46 pm   Post subject:    

"I just wanted to confirm that you're not thinking of the Studio Aperto "journalistic reconstruction", which had many of us fooled for a week or so. "


Is it a fake video?
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:46 pm   Post subject:    

From 34" to 1'16", you see the journalistic "reconstruction". In particular, at 39" you see the lady journalist converted in "Amanda" in the classic CCTV image that was published even in serious papers as actually being Amanda,
http://www.repubblica.it/2006/05/galler ... gia/2.html


:D

That's the one I was remembering Kermit.

I think I also remember watching your video.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:53 pm   Post subject:    

bolint wrote:
"I just wanted to confirm that you're not thinking of the Studio Aperto "journalistic reconstruction", which had many of us fooled for a week or so. "


Is it a fake video?



No, it's not fake.

But a trick was pulled in the way the video was cut and presented, a la crimescene video's from Telenorba.

The video from Studio Porto of a few weeks ago showed first the white blur, followed by MM walking down the ramp. The suggestion being that Rudy was "following" Meredith in some way.
It was only when the timestamps were examined that it became apparent that MM was pictured some minutes before white blur.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:59 pm   Post subject: Here come da Judge   

FBN wrote:

Quote:
Kermit wrote:
The crime took place in Italy. Italian laws apply. Why try to convince the Prime Minister of Italy that Amanda should get a change of venue on the basis of references to American law? The only thing I can think of is that Heavey thinks that his interpretation of American law should apply to the virtual oasis that surrounds Amanda, like some sort of aura of sovereignty.

In fact, I think Heavey was very successful in convincing Judge Micheli that Heavey's "official" judicial analysis of Amanda's unjust confinement - written on State of Washington letterhead and based on unsubstantiated arguments of illegalities by Matteini and Mignini in the investigation process - would be used to throw out any request for extradition should Amanda ever find herself under American jurisdiction at any point before her date of trial.


Heavey did even more damage to himself. Rumor has it that Pres. Elect Obama will be nominating Hillary Clinton as Secretary of State this morning. This comes as a crushing blow to Heavey who clearly had his eye on the position. Heavey's brazen attempt to demonstrate expertise in top-level foreign affairs was an utter failure.


So it backfired on every level. But let's not forget that other great and uniquely American resource, the capacity to put a "Rovelike" positive spin on just about anything. Some call it an uncanny ability to revise any fact so that it puts the revisionist in a positive light. Repeat as necessary, until it becomes the truth. As a variant, the spinner cries foul and "corrects" a misperception that was not really one, thereby adjusting the spin. We saw this when Anne Bremner went absolutely ballistic and took over Frank's blog. In reality, she was furious because she had been made to look the utter fool across Italy for her flaky crime scene analysis and "Fellini forensics" remark. But she spun it as a huge gaffe on the part of the press, which mistakenly claimed that she (and Heavey?) were trying to get a change of venue in order to move the trial out of Italy.

In fact, Heavey's letter (on Washington State Superior Court letterhead) mentions only a change of venue to some unspecified location.

The end result is that, as Kermit suggests, the request for house arrest status is denied, but the setback is blamed on the press, which got it wrong, and not on the misguided and arrogant strategy set in motion by Heavey, Bremner and The Friends of Amanda. This may not work in the broader context, but at least the egos of Heavey and Bremner remain intact. Whew! That's a relief.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:16 pm   Post subject:    

"if ... it is proven that the person in white is Amanda, then I would not like to be in her shoes for ... explaining to her parents "

I don't think that the parents will ever accept that the woman in white skirt is their daughter. So she won't explain anything.

There was a serial killer in NY and when he was sentenced to life for torturing and killing three girls his mother asked the detective at the lift in the courthouse "Are you happy now?".
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:28 pm   Post subject:    

Brian wrote:
"MM was pictured some minutes before white blur."

Thanks.
But in this case Rudy's diary might be more or less true in this respect.

He might have read the 8:43 time in the news and estimated his arrival time in the German diary.

But it was not Meredith whom he met.

But how is it that there is no picture of the fleeing Rudy? He must have run across the street to get to the stairs where he bumped into Formica's friend.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:35 pm   Post subject:    

Rudy's diary:
"I told Philip I had to go meet someone, and he
jokingly asked me if it was a guy or a girl. I pointed out it was a girl, because he was referring to an awful one night stand that happened to me a few days before, regarding a “guy.”"

Was this one night stand in the Milan jail? :-)
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:46 pm   Post subject: Adverts   

( OT OT )

Daisysteiner wrote:
I actually find the adverts on this site a bit off but I appreciate that costs need to be covered, this is the best way to do it, and any money actually made is minimal.


I feel I should just point out, just in case there's any confusion amongst new members/guests, that not a penny is made by this site from adverts. Advertisers pay Freeforums, our hosts, to host their adverts on Freeforum groups. That is why they are able to give us free hosting. We also have no say in 'what' adverts are shown. You'll find the same thing on Yahoo Groups and any other forum free hosting site.

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"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:53 pm   Post subject: CCTV   

Bolint wrote:
But how is it that there is no picture of the fleeing Rudy? He must have run across the street to get to the stairs where he bumped into Formica's friend."


Hi Bolint. Well, I think that it should be understood, that only a fraction of the ILE's evidence has been released into the public domain. Therefore, Rudy may well have been filmed leaving the cottage, but it simply hasn't been released as of yet. Also, it didn't need to be shown at his trial. After all, he never contested the fact that he was at the cottage and that he fled, so the CCT footage would only prove something he's not denying in the first place. It would be good if were able to see it though. It would be nice to have confirmation of what he was actually 'wearing' that night (the same goes for all the suspects really)

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Kermit


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Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:37 am

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:50 pm   Post subject: TURD BLOSSOM   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
(Heavey's letter to Berlusconi) backfired on every level. But let's not forget that other great and uniquely American resource, the capacity to put a "Rovelike" positive spin on just about anything. Some call it an uncanny ability to revise any fact so that it puts the revisionist in a positive light.... We saw this when Anne Bremner went absolutely ballistic and took over Frank's blog. In reality, she was furious because she had been made to look the utter fool across Italy for her flaky crime scene analysis and "Fellini forensics" remark. But she spun it as a huge gaffe on the part of the press, which mistakenly claimed that she (and Heavey?) were trying to get a change of venue in order to move the trial out of Italy.


Relating Heavey and Bremner to Karl Rove reminds me of G.Bush's nickname for his advisor and problem-fixer (often problem-maker too): "Turd Blossom" - a Texanism for a flower that blooms from cattle excrement. I think, however, that Rove refined his technique quite a bit more than than H and B, who should read the instruction manual before starting up their infernal locomotive.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 7:00 pm   Post subject:    

What Frank had to say about the car park cctv:

Studio Aperto aired today some frames of the garage video showing at about 8.31 a guy going out of the garage and at 8.41 a 'white spot' going towards the house.
Someone interpreted the guy as Rudy and the white spot as Meredith. Someone else even 'saw' the white spot going out of a car... It would be nice for Rudy this to be true and to have another partial confirmation to his version. Guede, indeed, always said to have been waiting for Meredith around the house for a while.
But the two figures are totally unrecognizable. The time doesn't really match because according to the reconstruction made with Sophie and Robyn, Meredith should have left via del Roscetto and via del Lupo slightly before 9 pm for arriving home slightly after 9 pm. But they can be wrong of almost half an hour. Maybe even apple pie can induce memory problems.

We can't say too much about the white figure, read as being Meredith thanks to a mere
almost-coincidence of time and space, but I think we can exclude the guy going out of the garage
to be Rudy Guede. He has maybe similar jacket and shoes but, for the little we can see, even
totally different features. The only certain element of this video is that it proofs that no rain
fell that evening while the albanian witness maintains that it was raining like hell (old stuff
for us here, we've been reasoning about that two articles ago). Will this be enough to deny him
at Friday's hearing? Probably.
But other elements of denial are about to be served, as, for
instance, some phone printouts showing him to be in Assisi at times that could make him difficult
to have been in via della Pergola in the evening....


Perugia-Shock


This gives some perspective on the timing of the cctv leak TO/BY Studio Operto. But it was also Studio Operto who published the garage CCTV pics last year, back in December.

Frank says the white blur was at 8:41???
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 7:25 pm   Post subject:    

Fast Pete has a brilliant piece up on the True Justice For Meredith Kercher website:

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:09 am   Post subject:    

Just an observation on diaries and friends:

November 5 Police are said to be trawling through Kercher's diary and examining her laptop and email account in an attempt to track down her killer.

November 6 Police arrest Kercher's US housemate Amanda Knox, then 20, Knox's boyfriend, the Italian student Raffaele Sollecito, 23....


Timeline from the Guardian



Italian police searching for the killer of the British exchange student Meredith Kercher are scouring her diary for clues.

They said that it contained telephone numbers, names, appointments and “thoughts on her life and friends”, although there were no entries for the day of her fatal appointment on November 1 with whoever killed her.

There is speculation that two men may have been involved, with one holding the woman down while the other killed her....

On Sunday evening her housemates — two Italians and an American — were taken back to the cottage. Dr Lalli said this was because of “interesting elements” in his post-mortem examination, but would not elaborate.


Story in the Times - 6th November - Obviously written before the news of the arrests



Police and prosecutors have called six friends of murdered British student Meredith Kercher back to Italy to question them again as part of the investigation.

They will be spoken to after further contradictions appeared in evidence given by the victim's US flatmate Amanda Knox, who is being held on suspicion of murder.

Among the six Britons are Meredith's best friends Sophie Purton, Amy Frost and Robyn Butterworth.....The other three friends to be questioned are Jade Bidwell, Natalie Hayward and Helen Power...


Sky News - three other witnesses for the trial?? Lost to memory from a year ago.

It would also appear that most if not all of the six friends were from the Italian Dept at Leeds.
These girls weren't "new friends". They will have known each other for at least two years and thus are likely to have spoken freely to each other about their thoughts and opinions on "the new people they met in Italy".
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:22 am   Post subject: La Dolce Vita   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
We saw this when Anne Bremner went absolutely ballistic and took over Frank's blog. In reality, she was furious because she had been made to look the utter fool across Italy for her flaky crime scene analysis and "Fellini forensics" remark.

Somewhat OT)) but relevant. Could anyone explain to me what "Fellini forensics" actually mean? What's Fellini got to do with it all? I really want to know... Thanks.

Federico Fellini
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:13 am   Post subject:    

Hero or Villain?

Leaked or investigated?

Amanda's supporters can't have it both ways.

Funnycat at the cooks blog:

But the police and Mr. Mignini "leak" whatever information they please, or release information at press conferences before important hearing dates. Often the information has been false, inflaming public opinion. The lesser Italian newspapers print whatever they please, and the better papers just go with the police leaks, Who can blame them, since prosecutors seize computers, search homes, and bring charges against journalists who get the truth and print it, as in the Monster of Florence case concerning journalists Mario Spezi and Fiorenza Sarzanini.

Fiorenza Sarzanini is the Corriere Della Sera journalist who has just put out the new book containing all the diary entries of Amanda and Raffaele which Curt Knox and Amanda's supporters are so upset about.

In fact Spezi is an outright amateur at getting in trouble with the police when compared to Fiorenza Sarzanini. He's the journalist at Corriere Della Sera whom Mignini has been ranting about since he first published the details of Amanda's and Raffaele's statements back on the 7th November 2007.

Corriere Della Sera - Fiorenza Sarzanini - English translation by Giles Watson


The first time the police seized his computer was when he had some inside information about terrorist activity at the G8 summit back in 2002. The last time they seized his computer was just last week and that was in connection with some financial investigation and he's been in trouble on several occasions in between. I don't think Mignini leaks to Sarzanini. I think Mignini would love to know from where he gets his information. I wonder where he came across his copy of Amanda's diary?

So Funnycat and all the other Amanda supporters:

Is Fiorenza Sarzanini hero or villain?

Is he friends with Mignini or agin him?
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:30 am   Post subject:    

Guermantes wrote:

Quote:
Somewhat OT)) but relevant. Could anyone explain to me what "Fellini forensics" actually mean? What's Fellini got to do with it all? I really want to know... Thanks.


It's called a sound bite. I think if you asked Anne herself, she too would be hard-pressed to offer any cogent explanation. But it sounds good. There's the alliteration, and Fellini is Italian, and well, Fellini liked freaks and well, Fellini is so, so Italian.... it's just BS, really. Total BS.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:33 am   Post subject: heroine   

Brian wrote:

Quote:
So Funnycat and all the other Amanda supporters:

Is Fiorenza Sarzanini hero or villain?

Is he friends with Mignini or agin him?


Just wondering -- wouldn't Fiorenza be a she and not a he?
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:31 am   Post subject:    

"Therefore, Rudy may well have been filmed leaving the cottage, but it simply hasn't been released as of yet. Also, it didn't need to be shown at his trial. After all, he never contested the fact that he was at the cottage and that he fled, so the CCT footage would only prove something he's not denying in the first place"

I think that proseuctors should present evidence before the trial begins to allow time for the defence to examine it.
What could be the reason not to offer this evidence if it exists?
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:00 am   Post subject: Re: heroine   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Brian wrote:

Quote:
So Funnycat and all the other Amanda supporters:

Is Fiorenza Sarzanini hero or villain?

Is he friends with Mignini or agin him?


Just wondering -- wouldn't Fiorenza be a she and not a he?


Yes, Fiorenza is a woman. She was interviewd about the book and she said it not about the judicial case, but rather it focuses on the world of the Erasmus/international students in Perugia etc.

About the "Fellini forensics" Bremner is missusing the word "Felliniana" that is sometimes used to describe the physical aspect of an overly mad- up woman- or someone whose appearance is almost "circus-like", since such characters aften appeared in Fellini movies. I agree with you, it's total BS.
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Offline daisysteiner


Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:59 pm

Posts: 490

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:36 am   Post subject: Re: Adverts   

Michael wrote:
( OT OT )

Daisysteiner wrote:
I actually find the adverts on this site a bit off but I appreciate that costs need to be covered, this is the best way to do it, and any money actually made is minimal.


I feel I should just point out, just in case there's any confusion amongst new members/guests, that not a penny is made by this site from adverts. Advertisers pay Freeforums, our hosts, to host their adverts on Freeforum groups. That is why they are able to give us free hosting. We also have no say in 'what' adverts are shown. You'll find the same thing on Yahoo Groups and any other forum free hosting site.


Thanks for the info, I knew it would be something along those lines. A friend has a site and makes buttons from Adwords etc so even if the ads were commercial and yours, I know you are hardly making millions from them :D Thanks for the site and keep it up!
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Offline daisysteiner


Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:59 pm

Posts: 490

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:00 am   Post subject:    

Brian S. wrote:
Just an observation on diaries and friends:

November 5 Police are said to be trawling through Kercher's diary and examining her laptop and email account in an attempt to track down her killer.

November 6 Police arrest Kercher's US housemate Amanda Knox, then 20, Knox's boyfriend, the Italian student Raffaele Sollecito, 23....


Timeline from the Guardian



Italian police searching for the killer of the British exchange student Meredith Kercher are scouring her diary for clues.

They said that it contained telephone numbers, names, appointments and “thoughts on her life and friends”, although there were no entries for the day of her fatal appointment on November 1 with whoever killed her.

There is speculation that two men may have been involved, with one holding the woman down while the other killed her....

On Sunday evening her housemates — two Italians and an American — were taken back to the cottage. Dr Lalli said this was because of “interesting elements” in his post-mortem examination, but would not elaborate.


Story in the Times - 6th November - Obviously written before the news of the arrests



Police and prosecutors have called six friends of murdered British student Meredith Kercher back to Italy to question them again as part of the investigation.

They will be spoken to after further contradictions appeared in evidence given by the victim's US flatmate Amanda Knox, who is being held on suspicion of murder.

Among the six Britons are Meredith's best friends Sophie Purton, Amy Frost and Robyn Butterworth.....The other three friends to be questioned are Jade Bidwell, Natalie Hayward and Helen Power...


Sky News - three other witnesses for the trial?? Lost to memory from a year ago.

It would also appear that most if not all of the six friends were from the Italian Dept at Leeds.
These girls weren't "new friends". They will have known each other for at least two years and thus are likely to have spoken freely to each other about their thoughts and opinions on "the new people they met in Italy".


The girls did know each other at Uni and, like all other females on the planet, yes they would have had regular dissections of the people they were living with and meeting on a daily basis in Perugia. Amanda was a whole new level of mentalist for Meredith, nice enough at first but very weird, why wouldn't they have talked & emailed about her to people at home? Forensics to one side, the words of the victim will play a big part in the prosecution evidence and I'm amazed that the Knox family haven't tried to play down this element in the press more. Oh hang on, it's covered in their "Everyone but us has an agenda to convict innocent Amanda" catch-all denials.

I started to pick apart lots of other little things in my mind about this case such as the other flatmates alibi's etc and the more I do so the more the answer in this trial becomes clear. Unless the defense can uncover clear unequivocal CCTV evidence that Amanda was somewhere else other than her house on the night Meredith was killed, she will be convicted. And it is the little things that will convict her. All those tiny holes in the alibi's, all those changed stories; once the judge has considered the forensics, coupled with the strong circumstantial evidence, Amanda is in really deep trouble. As Fast Pete says on TJMK, the evidence stacks up, the denials have stopped (other than what I assume are the drunken ramblings of Sam/DJ & Chris M) and the more we find out, the stronger the case looks against the accused. The only people who refuse to accept this is the Knox family. The Sollecito's have been quiet for a very long time now, they do not make public statements or do interviews. I understand why they (Knox/Mellas) have the public face they do, but I would love to be behind closed doors to find out if that unwavering support really does continue when the cameras are off. Chris Mellas seems to spend enough time slagging people off online now and very little reasoning things out or discussing evidence. When he is insulting Michael rather than reasoning with him, well insults are the last resort of the desperate man really. Says quite a lot about him and where his mind is at.
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Offline cindy


Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:57 pm

Posts: 26

Location: spain

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:23 am   Post subject:    

i found this article interesting...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28002991/?gt1=43001
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:45 pm   Post subject: Re: heroine   

nicki wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Brian wrote:

Quote:
So Funnycat and all the other Amanda supporters:

Is Fiorenza Sarzanini hero or villain?

Is he friends with Mignini or agin him?


Just wondering -- wouldn't Fiorenza be a she and not a he?


Yes, Fiorenza is a woman. She was interviewd about the book and she said it not about the judicial case, but rather it focuses on the world of the Erasmus/international students in Perugia etc.



Then, I apologise to Fiorenza, I just didn't think, nor did I know.

:oops:
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Offline Jools


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:06 pm   Post subject:    

Hi daisysteiner,

I totally agree with you. What you say it is absolutely true and natural to have regular dissections of people they live or meet on a daily basis.

I have a daughter the same age at University abroad (London) living with others students and we do talk daily and she does tell me about the students she shares accommodation with, and of course she does talk, tells her friends about situations in the shared accommodation and the other students living there.

Meredith apart from talking to her friends I am sure would have shared information with her parents or sister about the housemates, in particular this girl that must have seem very odd to her.

Ak also shared information with her friends in Seattle, with her (Chris M the vulgar) stepfather, her sister, etc., on her myspace site about the people she met on trains and situations, goings on with washing machine repair man and another housemate. Oddly though I don't think she talked about Sollecito with any of them, her friends certainly they didn't even know his name and her stepfather has lied about it.

I guess all will be clarify in court.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:39 pm   Post subject:    

bolint wrote:
"Therefore, Rudy may well have been filmed leaving the cottage, but it simply hasn't been released as of yet. Also, it didn't need to be shown at his trial. After all, he never contested the fact that he was at the cottage and that he fled, so the CCT footage would only prove something he's not denying in the first place"

I think that proseuctors should present evidence before the trial begins to allow time for the defence to examine it.
What could be the reason not to offer this evidence if it exists?


On the CCTV:

Most CCTV systems overwrite themselves after a certain time period. This car park was well covered by 5?? cameras and I'd like to suggest that the location itself would mean that video was stored for longer than 24 hours. By definition car parks are "crime areas", car theft, theft from cars, vandalism, drug dealing and the like. It won't have been the first time that CCTV from this car park has been used in a police investigation.

After checking on the internet, 28 days seems a common storage time for UK car parks. It all depends on the number of camera's, picture sample frequency, resolution and the capacity of the DVR.

A digital video recorder (DVR) or personal video recorder (PVR) is a device that records video in a digital format to a hard disk drive or other medium. It has also become the main way for CCTV companies to record their surveillance, as it provides far longer recording times than the previously used VCRs.

Protech Systems supply and install high end DVR's which record video onto hard disk drives and have the ability for Remote Monitoring over the internet. DVR's are supplied in a range of 4, 8 and 16 channels dependent on the amount of cameras required on the system. They have the ability of motion recording, time lapse recording and scheduled recording. Recordings onto the system can be viewed and downloaded onto memory stick or by the inbuilt CD writer.

Digital video recording times vary and are dependent on the size of hard drive storage and the amount of cameras on the system and whether the recording is set on motion or continuous recording.


Protech Sytems - Complete with some pics


I've been reading the techs, and on a 5 camera system, 96 hours would be a doddle to fit on a 100GB hard drive($50 these days) - but thats 130 CD's.

I deliberately picked on Protech because they sell "ordinary systems" and also car park barrier entry systems which can be linked to the cameras. More expensive, state of the art DVR these days involves RAID tech and all kinds of whizz bangs.

The car park in Perugia has barrier entry and we know that the cameras caught the numbers of all the cars parked there that night because the police said earlier that they'd managed to contact all of their owners.



Only certain parts of the CCTV video was given to the defense teams with the 10,000 pages. This did mean that the prosecution intended to use only those parts of the footage when they presented their case.

Sometime this Summer, Sollecito's team requested to be given the rest of the footage. They said they wanted it to check if it contained shots which would confirm Raffaele's story of his movements.

At the end of the pre-trial, Micheli requested the prosecution to reinvestigate the connections between, and the movements of, the suspects in the period they knew each other before the crime.

One new witness claims to have seen Meredith and the three leaving the cottage on October 30th.

I've been looking at the position of Middie's camera in Kermits pic. Who could walk past that to the cottage in the light of day without being seen? It must have picked up all the comings and goings. I think more of the CCTV than was required at the pre-trial will be used at the real trial.

The prosecution presented their new "evidence file" to the court before the cut off date. The judges said they were ready for Dec 4th. The trial was postponed at the request of the defences so they could study the new prosecution case. I think Amanda's team may have 130+ CDs to plough through.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:35 pm   Post subject:    

An interesting statistic:

The old TC board consistently gets around 20-25% the number of visitors as this site.

I've been watching for a couple of weeks.

I did think originally it may relate to links made by posters here back to old posts there.

But..... there doesn't seem to be any connection between the two.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:04 pm   Post subject: On connait la chanson   

Brian wrote:

Quote:
Hero or Villain?
Leaked or investigated?
Amanda's supporters can't have it both ways.

Then, I apologise to Fiorenza, I just didn't think, nor did I know.


I thought you might have inside dope on Fiorenza that contradicted mine. I had seen her referred to as "her" and wanted to make sure. I didn't mean to obscure your larger point, which is that the supporters can't have it both ways. And you are right. There is a tendency in that camp to demonize or deify people, and to turn on people who are perceived as hostile to the cause. Sometimes, the deified get demoted and demonized. This seems to have happened to Micheli. Before the preliminary hearing, he was the only just man in town. Another version of this can be observed when we look at police work: all of the physical evidence against Rudy was gathered with the utmost care. Not so with respect to the other two. And so on.
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Offline Corrina


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:20 pm

Posts: 625

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:07 pm   Post subject: Do the Shuffle   

Oh now I've just almost snarfed my yogurt over here. (I swore I grabbed blueberry, not raspberry) I sure hope this latest explanation of Iforgotmytowelsanddidthebathmatshuffleandthatshowthefootprintsgotwipedup is fake. I actually do. A year in jail hasn't helped this child's imagination any if not.

Maybe I better read more. They just can't expect this to fly.
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Offline cindy


Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:57 pm

Posts: 26

Location: spain

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:11 pm   Post subject:    

Brian S. wrote:
An interesting statistic:

The old TC board consistently gets around 20-25% the number of visitors as this site.

I've been watching for a couple of weeks.

I did think originally it may relate to links made by posters here back to old posts there.

But..... there doesn't seem to be any connection between the two.


brian,

maybe they are people like myself ( newbies) trying to catch up ?
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Offline Michael

Site Admin


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Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:23 pm   Post subject: TC Board   

cindy wrote:
Brian S. wrote:
An interesting statistic:

The old TC board consistently gets around 20-25% the number of visitors as this site.

I've been watching for a couple of weeks.

I did think originally it may relate to links made by posters here back to old posts there.

But..... there doesn't seem to be any connection between the two.


brian,

maybe they are people like myself ( newbies) trying to catch up ?


Hi Brian, hi Cindy,

Not just that. Skep specifically arranged with Steve Huff to keep the TC board available for views simply because it's so important for all the data and ideas that came up during discussions there. So, my guess is many of the hits are people going to find various specific data on the case. I myself still go there often for example (just as on occassions I'll go back to some of the old Haloscans). Even though it's no longer active, it's still a majorly important resource :)

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
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Offline indie


User avatar


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:15 am

Posts: 383

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:38 pm   Post subject:    

Thanks Brian for your as usual thoroughly investigated post.

Yes, the tale as told by those tapes will make Amanda's "explanation" essays even more unbelievable. These tapes are very helpful for the witnesses testifying on behalf of justice because it helps collaborate their truthful statements.

After reading about the bath mat shuffle, I believe the Knox camp is not going to admit to ANYTHING. I definitely think Rafaele was there at the moment of the final blow too, otherwise he would have washed his hands of Amanda a long time ago. I just wished he felt the truth would help him. If the truth can't help him, it must mean they probably planned to murder Meredith all along. It is so incredibly hard for me to believe, but it just may be the case.

This is my usual once a month post about I cannot comprehend how not one of the three will tell the real story of Meredith's murder.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:47 pm   Post subject:    

At Corrina's request, I am reposting this comment here in the main thread. She posted it as an announcement, which means she wants y'all to listen up!

Quote:
Hello All,

Haven't been about, what with the holiday here in the U.S. and mad candle and tie-dye making, but just came across this article on msnbc. On topic? Off topic? Interesting nonetheless.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28002991/?gt1=43001

Off to play catch up!
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Offline cindy


Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:57 pm

Posts: 26

Location: spain

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:52 pm   Post subject:    

hi michael,

yes i agree. the haloscan and tc sites are great resources. both have helped me immensely ! i dont know when i will be on the same page as y´all though.
i´ll keep trying , one day i may get there!
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:00 pm   Post subject: Personality Disorder   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
At Corrina's request, I am reposting this comment here in the main thread. She posted it as an announcement, which means she wants y'all to listen up!

Quote:
Hello All,

Haven't been about, what with the holiday here in the U.S. and mad candle and tie-dye making, but just came across this article on msnbc. On topic? Off topic? Interesting nonetheless.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28002991/?gt1=43001

Off to play catch up!


Yes, Cindy posted up this link too. I'm thinking this might be a good one for the site databases.

Question to the members: I'm considering the creation of a psychology forum on the group, both as a general psychological disorder database and for the general discussion of how it may apply to our suspects. Would the membership appreciate such a forum? Feedback welcome.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:03 pm   Post subject: Good grief   

Jools wrote:

Quote:
Meredith apart from talking to her friends I am sure would have shared information with her parents or sister about the housemates, in particular this girl that must have seem very odd to her.


Early on, John Kercher is reported to have said that Meredith found her flatmate a bit eccentric and was astonished that she had already picked up a boyfriend. Since then, the family has been extremely reticent. One can imply, as Frank and then Candace did, that they are being gagged (figuratively, of course) by their lawyer. One can also imagine that they have decided not to muddy the waters further by joining in the media circus. As Maresca pointed out recently, the Knox/Mellas camp is now part of the circus they initially criticized. That is the strategy the PR people have chosen and the family (plus its acceptable spokespeople) has adopted. I believe that the Kerchers have deliberately chosen a different strategy. It involves not being gagged by their lawyer but choosing instead to let him be their official voice. I believe they have realized that their role is not to interfere with the process but rather to observe it. I also believe that they are remaining silent and staying out of the public eye out of respect for Meredith and in order to grieve privately. It is impossible to say what one would do in someone else's shoes, especially these ones, which must be so difficult and painful to wear. But I'd like to think that in their shoes I would do as they are doing. Their attitude in grief is a testament to the kind of person I imagine Meredith to have been. They honor her memory.
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Offline Corrina


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:20 pm

Posts: 625

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:25 pm   Post subject: Re: Personality Disorder   

Michael wrote:
[

Yes, Cindy posted up this link too. I'm thinking this might be a good one for the site databases.

Question to the members: I'm considering the creation of a psychology forum on the group, both as a general psychological disorder database and for the general discussion of how it may apply to our suspects. Would the membership appreciate such a forum? Feedback welcome.


Yikes! Sorry about that, Cindy; thanks for pointing it out, Michael. Apparently, I really do need to read up before posting anything after an absence!

Of course! A bathmat shuffle! It's the only reasonable explanation for the alleged cleanup! I swear I felt a few brain cells die...
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Offline cindy


Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:57 pm

Posts: 26

Location: spain

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:51 pm   Post subject: Re: Personality Disorder   

Corrina wrote:
Michael wrote:
[

Yes, Cindy posted up this link too. I'm thinking this might be a good one for the site databases.

Question to the members: I'm considering the creation of a psychology forum on the group, both as a general psychological disorder database and for the general discussion of how it may apply to our suspects. Would the membership appreciate such a forum? Feedback welcome.


Yikes! Sorry about that, Cindy; thanks for pointing it out, Michael. Apparently, I really do need to read up before posting anything after an absence!

Of course! A bathmat shuffle! It's the only reasonable explanation for the alleged cleanup! I swear I felt a few brain cells die...


ah corrina !! you know what they say about great minds thinking alike !! you know after i posted i got scared that i posted a link already done , because there had been a lot of links that i skipped over.. whew ! no,,, i got lucky....
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:53 pm

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:52 pm   Post subject:    

:arrow:

_________________
R.I.P
Meredith Kercher.


Last edited by DeathFish 2000 on Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:24 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Offline Corrina


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Posts: 625

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:05 pm   Post subject: Meet the Flintstones   

Completely OFF TOPIC but the bathmat shuffle thing got me remembering Fred Flintstone and The Frantic. Anybody remember this?

*************************************************

Frantic, The - Dance craze accidentally created by cave man Fred Flintstone on the animated sitcom THE FLINTSTONES/ABC/1960-66. When Fred dropped a bowling ball on his foot while bowling, he frantically grabbed the injured foot and began to hop around the alley on his good foot all the while yelling "Yabba Dabba Di, Yi, Yi, Yi." Mistaking Fred's pain for a new dance step, an entrepreneur offered to pay Fred one hundred dollars if Fred performed his new dance step at the Bedrock A' Go-Go. Just before Fred was about to demonstrate "The Frantic," he sat on a tack and ran screaming onto the dance floor where he fell flat on his face. This new accident was misinterpreted as a dance called "The Flop." Later that same evening when Fred hit his head on a door, he ran around the room holding his head and screaming, and thus created "The Frenzy." Fred's friend Barney Rubble commented "Every time he hurts himself, he makes a new dance. He'll make a fortune, if he lives."

***************************************************

More tea, move down, hello, I must be going! Mad? We're all mad here...
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Offline Kermit


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Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:37 am

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:05 pm   Post subject: The BATHMAT SHUFFLE   

Corrina wrote:
Oh now I've just almost snarfed my yogurt over here ... I sure hope this latest explanation of Iforgotmytowelsanddidthebathmatshuffleandthatshowthefootprintsgotwipedup is fake.


Conscious that I am taking up precious discussion board vertical space, and willing to assume the risk of Michael administrating doctored and copyrighted Rolling Stones lyrics, please find below a Bathmat-for-Harlem search-and-replace version of "The Harlem Shuffle":

"You move it to the left
And you go for yourself
You move it to the right
Yeah if it takes all night
Now take it kinda slow
With a whole lot of soul
Don't move it too fast
Just make it last

You scratch just like a monkey
Yeah you do real cool
You slide it to the limbo
Yeah how low can you go?
Now come on baby
Don't fall down on me now
Just move it right here
To the Bathmat shuffle
Yeah yeah yeah to the Bathmat shuffle
Yeah yeah yeah to the Bathmat shuffle

Hitch hitch hike baby
Across the floor
I can't stand it no more
Now come on baby
Now get into your slide
Just ride ride ride
Little pony, ride!

Yeah yeah yeah do the Bathmat shuffle
Yeah yeah yeah do the Bathmat shuffle
Do the Monkey shine
Yeah yeah yeah shake a tail feather baby
Yeah yeah yeah shake a tail feather baby
Yeah yeah yeah do the Bathmat shuffle
Yeah yeah yeah do the Bathmat shuffle
Yeah like your mother told you how
Yeah yeah yeah do the Bathmat shuffle
Yeah yeah yeah do the Bathmat shuffle"

----------------------------------------------
I have a bigger bathmat than the cottage's little blue one, and I do have "rustico" earthen-type floor tiles like in the cottage, so this morning I carried out a test (more relevant than a Paul the PI test funded by CBS): I got out of the shower and tried to efficiently maneuver out of the bathroom and down the hall. To move a few centimetres from the shower to the sink was doable. However, when I headed out to conquer the hallway, I just about killed myself. Of course, if you do it very slowly and orthopedically it can be considered a means of moving about the house.

The experience reminded me of childhood potato-sack or three-legged races.

In any case, if the subtle hint is that any bloody footprints were "mopped up" by the bathmat as Amanda caterpillared around the house (and that that could allay the "staging" charge), then I assume that the bottom side of the bathmat is stained by blood.

I'm withholding judgement for the moment on the "bathmat shuffle", putting it in the same storage bin as Raffaele's "I remember cooking with her, pricking her with that knife, then apologising to her" story.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:13 pm   Post subject:    

"I've been looking at the position of Middie's camera in Kermits pic. Who could walk past that to the cottage in the light of day without being seen? It must have picked up all the comings and goings. I think more of the CCTV than was required at the pre-trial will be used at the real trial."

If there were such pictures then at least Amanda's Nov 2 arrival, around 10:30AM as she says, her departure later, and then the couples's re-arrival should have been seen on them, as they happened in daylight.
(Or Amanda's earlier arrival if the 7:45 shop witness is right.)
But no such news have leaked so far which is strange.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:14 pm   Post subject:    

It was an answer to Biran's post. Sorry, I often forget to wirte it in.
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Offline Corrina


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Posts: 625

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:15 pm   Post subject: Bathmat Rockclimb   

Kermit. An athletic bathmat shuffler could do it, no problem.
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:28 pm   Post subject:    

This would explain it.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=IqhlQfXUk7w

_________________
R.I.P
Meredith Kercher.
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Offline Corrina


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Posts: 625

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:32 pm   Post subject: That's IT!   

DF,

See? There really IS an explanation for everything! Why, it's just a cute little bunny...
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Offline Kermit


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Posts: 580

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:38 pm   Post subject: Re: Bathmat Rockclimb   

Corrina wrote:
Kermit. An athletic bathmat shuffler could do it, no problem.


I don't know Corrina. Maybe if the shuffler had opposing big toes, to lift up the leading edge of the mat and not trip up. :D

(But then it wouldn't be the Bathmat Shuffle but rather the Bathmat Tango ... much more elegant ...)
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:38 pm   Post subject: Lordy   

Kermit wrote:

Quote:
I have a bigger bathmat than the cottage's little blue one, and I do have "rustico" earthen-type floor tiles like in the cottage, so this morning I carried out a test (more relevant than a Paul the PI test funded by CBS): I got out of the shower and tried to efficiently maneuver out of the bathroom and down the hall. To move a few centimetres from the shower to the sink was doable. However, when I headed out to conquer the hallway, I just about killed myself. Of course, if you do it very slowly and orthopedically it can be considered a means of moving about the house.

The experience reminded me of childhood potato-sack or three-legged races.

In any case, if the subtle hint is that any bloody footprints were "mopped up" by the bathmat as Amanda caterpillared around the house (and that that could allay the "staging" charge), then I assume that the bottom side of the bathmat is stained by blood.

I'm withholding judgement for the moment on the "bathmat shuffle", putting it in the same storage bin as Raffaele's "I remember cooking with her, pricking her with that knife, then apologising to her" story.




It must be highbrow talk of Fred Flinstone and Barney Rubble that made me think of Boswell's Life of Samuel Johnson. In it, Boswell recounts one of Samuel Johnson's most memorable quips: "Sir, a woman's preaching is like a dog's walking on his hind legs. It is not done well; but you are surprised to find it done at all."

In this case, if I understand correctly -- and I am not sure I do, as this story gets curiouser and curiouser -- there was some overriding reason that it was necessary to hop on a bathmat from the bathroom to the bedroom to fetch the towel. And that would be? A clause in the lease stipulating that not a single bare wet foot could ever directly touch the floor?

Seriously, what are we being asked to believe here?
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Offline cindy


Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:57 pm

Posts: 26

Location: spain

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:44 pm   Post subject:    

DeathFish 2000 wrote:


oh how funny! im really getting my laughes in tonight !
i believe amanda could qualify for a job with this department !
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:46 pm   Post subject: How about slippers with sponges on the bottom   

Jools wrote:

Quote:
I have a daughter the same age at University abroad (London) living with others students and we do talk daily and she does tell me about the students she shares accommodation with, and of course she does talk, tells her friends about situations in the shared accommodation and the other students living there.


Has your daughter ever mentioned any of her flatmates using the bathmat to shuffle from bathroom to bedroom? I hear this practice is quite common among today's university students. Maybe, like dear old Fred Flinstone, they are practicing a new dance called The Bathmat Shuffle. I have heard of a variant that exists in France. There, people place one wet foot on each of their dirty socks and slide across the floor to fetch their undies, towels and other items. And last Christmas, a friend actually gave me a pair of bright pink slippers that double as floor wipers. They have "hairy rags" on the bottom that pick up lint, dust, hair and so on as the wearer shuffles around the house.
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Offline Jools


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Location: Spain

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:50 pm   Post subject: Laughing out loud   

DeathFish 2000 wrote:


DF2K, that is so hilarious! :lol:
Very appropriate for these clowns of supporters to 'face the press' :lol: :lol:

"The Ministry of Silly Walks" is a sketch from the Monty Python comedy troupe's television show Monty Python's Flying Circus, episode 14, which is entitled "Face the Press".
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Offline Kermit


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Posts: 580

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:53 pm   Post subject: Re: Lordy   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Seriously, what are we being asked to believe here?


I fear, Skep, that the Bathmat Shuffle, the Oops-I-pricked-her-then-apologised, the Amanda-often-wore-the-victim's-bras, etc, are just the beginning of a collection of tragic and sad explanations (I dare not say comical) for evidence in this crime.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:53 pm   Post subject: Amanda the Brand   

Candace Dempsey wrote:
Posted by Candace Dempsey at 12/2/08 12:42 a.m. #223406

Frog-y, you could start a support group for Raffaele and Rudy yourself if you feel they need financial help and support.

Meanwhile you can hardly blame the Knox supporters if the press goes crazy every time another bit of Amanda's private life is laid bare. Which is what happened last week when her personal diary was leaked.

She sells newspapers. That's what it's all about. ...



THE COOK'S SMOG


Yes indeed. And books evidently. Ain't that right Candace? K-r-r-r-ching!!!

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES


Last edited by Michael on Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Corrina


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:20 pm

Posts: 625

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:53 pm   Post subject: Suspended Belief   

Oh Skeppie Beehive,

Or are you Doubting Thomas? It's a perfectly reasonable explanation for why those footprints got cleaned up. Oh. That and the police, you know, filming themselves removing evidence. Didn't you get the script?

Hey, did anyone else ever read that Amanda has been straight about the blood in the sink from the beginning? It's true! A poster named Janet H says that Amanda had a cut on her ear (no mention of where it came from) and when she showered it opened up and dropped the blood on Meredith's blood in the faucet that was left there by Rudy. I can't believe I never read that Amanda had a cut on her ear! Why haven't the prosecution mentioned this? Most assuredly a conspiracy of Mignini proportions!

Yabba Dabba Di Yi Yi Yi
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Offline Jools


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:10 pm   Post subject: Re: How about slippers with sponges on the bottom   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Jools wrote:

Quote:
I have a daughter the same age at University abroad (London) living with others students and we do talk daily and she does tell me about the students she shares accommodation with, and of course she does talk, tells her friends about situations in the shared accommodation and the other students living there.


Has your daughter ever mentioned any of her flatmates using the bathmat to shuffle from bathroom to bedroom? I hear this practice is quite common among today's university students. Maybe, like dear old Fred Flinstone, they are practicing a new dance called The Bathmat Shuffle. I have heard of a variant that exists in France. There, people place one wet foot on each of their dirty socks and slide across the floor to fetch their undies, towels and other items. And last Christmas, a friend actually gave me a pair of bright pink slippers that double as floor wipers. They have "hairy rags" on the bottom that pick up lint, dust, hair and so on as the wearer shuffles around the house.


HAHAHA. My daughter’s student accommodation they all have their own individual bed+batroom (they share kitchen+living room) so she doesn’t have to share shuffling bathmats and thank God she doesn’t get to see others electric tooth brushes. :lol:
An untie of mine had those slippers-wipers and she used them whenever she waxed her parquet floor. :lol: :lol:
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:13 pm   Post subject: Re: Amanda the Brand   

Michael wrote:
Candace Dempsey wrote:
Posted by Candace Dempsey at 12/2/08 12:42 a.m. #223406

Meanwhile you can hardly blame the Knox supporters if the press goes crazy every time another bit of Amanda's private life is laid bare. Which is what happened last week when her personal diary was leaked.

She sells newspapers. That's what it's all about. ...



THE COOK'S SMOG


Yes indeed. And books evidently. Ain't that right Candace? K-r-r-r-ching!!!



Someone with a login should point out to Candace just who Amanda's diary was supposedly leaked to.

It was only the other reporter who got into trouble with Mignini along with Spezi in the Monster case.

Perhaps, Funnycat's hero has made up with her old persecutor or maybe she's been digging again into one of Mignini's cases?
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:17 pm   Post subject: Mat Walk   

Go to www.thegreenhead.com for a look at The Mat Walk, a bathmat with built-in slippers. Here's what one skeptical poster had to say (emphasis mine):


Quote:
I'm sorry, I don't really understand the Mat Walk ($49), bathmat with built-in slippers. Sure I get that you can shuffle around your bathroom after showering without getting the floor wet or something like that, but I just don't get the whole WHY behind it. However, you just know that someone out there, right this second, just clicked on it and is screaming out loud, "Oh Hell Yeah! That's exactly what I was looking for!!!" or maybe not.
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Offline Corrina


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:20 pm

Posts: 625

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:29 pm   Post subject: Re: Mat Walk   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Go to www.thegreenhead.com for a look at The Mat Walk, a bathmat with built-in slippers. Here's what one skeptical poster had to say (emphasis mine):


Quote:
I'm sorry, I don't really understand the Mat Walk ($49), bathmat with built-in slippers. Sure I get that you can shuffle around your bathroom after showering without getting the floor wet or something like that, but I just don't get the whole WHY behind it. However, you just know that someone out there, right this second, just clicked on it and is screaming out loud, "Oh Hell Yeah! That's exactly what I was looking for!!!" or maybe not.


I always bleach my bathmat slippers. I mean, eating utensils. It's very commonplace down the rabbit hole...
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Offline cindy


Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:57 pm

Posts: 26

Location: spain

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:35 pm   Post subject: Re: Mat Walk   

Corrina wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Go to www.thegreenhead.com for a look at The Mat Walk, a bathmat with built-in slippers. Here's what one skeptical poster had to say (emphasis mine):


Quote:
I'm sorry, I don't really understand the Mat Walk ($49), bathmat with built-in slippers. Sure I get that you can shuffle around your bathroom after showering without getting the floor wet or something like that, but I just don't get the whole WHY behind it. However, you just know that someone out there, right this second, just clicked on it and is screaming out loud, "Oh Hell Yeah! That's exactly what I was looking for!!!" or maybe not.


I always bleach my bathmat slippers. I mean, eating utensils. It's very commonplace down the rabbit hole...


corrina... i like your humor... we must be cousins in different lives.... something like that
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:53 pm

Posts: 340

Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:42 pm   Post subject:    

:arrow:

_________________
R.I.P
Meredith Kercher.


Last edited by DeathFish 2000 on Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Jools


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:51 pm   Post subject:    

From the UW Daily:
"Amanda Knox’s trial rescheduled to January"

http://tinyurl.com/5kxbzh

Is Janet H. AK's ant?

(#5 Janet H

on December 2, 2008 at 9:41 a.m.
OK Green, lets take a look:

1.Knox's blood ...---Amanda had a cut on her ear and came home to shower and reopened this cut which dripped into the sink where Guede probably dripped Merideths blood. Amanda has been straight about this fact from the begining.
* Knox's DNA ...-----WHAT? This knofe was found at Raf's house in a drawer for one, not Amanda's blood but her skin cells on the handle of a knife she used to cook in his kitchen. The DNA is such a low % match to Meredeth and such a miniscule amount that it is being tossed out. Needless to say this knife does not match the cuts made.
* Her cellphones ..._----They went to bed at the same time and woke up at the same time so phones going off and on is irrelevent.
* The partially cleaned crime scene ...---So she cleaned up everything but the "damming" evidence against her? Wonderful idea!
* The fake break-in...---Hmmm, think the actuall killer might have done that, say maybe the guy who's bloody handprint was under meredeth's head and in her purse?
* Knox's statements ...---Who are these witnesses and why are they not actually testifying? Probably because they do not exist and are made up by the rags you are quoting your information from.
* The many contradictions ...----she gave one contradictory statement after being hit and threatened to do so by the police and immediatly recanted it to go back to her original statement and has remained there ever since.
* Packrick Lumumba...---was insisted upon by the police as they found african american hair at the scene and this was the only person to fit thast bill that knew amanda.
* Her frequent quarrels ...----never happened, a story made up by people who did not actually know them. They had just attended the chocolate festival together and meredith had called her just the day before to see if they wanted to get together and hang out.
* Knox's past history ...---please, she has had 7 boyfrineds in her life, yes she smoked pot that's all, this is not a hard drug, the one party that the police were called she was the sober person who talked to the police outside and broke the party up after a noise complaint.
* The witness ...---a made up story, already thrown out of court.
* The witness ...---again, made up and thrown out of court.

Condsider your sources, the daily mail and true justice are tabliod rags that print whatever trash they can get their hands on regardless of if it's true or not, they also never print corrections when something they have printed has been proven wrong/incorrect. Do some real research with reputable sources before you condem someone.)
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:55 pm   Post subject: Meet the Huffs   

Jools asked:

Quote:
Is Janet H. AK's aunt?


She does have an aunt called Janet Huff (no relation to Steve).
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:58 pm   Post subject: More nonsense   

Janet H wrote:

Quote:
Packrick Lumumba...---was insisted upon by the police as they found african american hair at the scene and this was the only person to fit thast bill that knew amanda.


"Packrick" might be surprised to learn that he is African American.
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Offline Corrina


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:20 pm

Posts: 625

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:02 pm   Post subject: Ad lib   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Janet H wrote:

Quote:
Packrick Lumumba...---was insisted upon by the police as they found african american hair at the scene and this was the only person to fit thast bill that knew amanda.


"Packrick" might be surprised to learn that he is African American.


No No No No NO! The script (this week) clearly states that the police hit and coerced Amanda into fingering Patrick because she texted him "see you later" but what those awful police didn't tell us is that she ended it with "good night".

Obviously, this Janet H is an IMPOSTER.
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Offline Jools


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Location: Spain

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:09 pm   Post subject: Re: More nonsense   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Janet H wrote:

Quote:
Packrick Lumumba...---was insisted upon by the police as they found african american hair at the scene and this was the only person to fit thast bill that knew amanda.


"Packrick" might be surprised to learn that he is African American.


Yes, he would be surprised.
These people are so thick is unvelievable. Is always the same 3 maybe 4 persons, the best friend, the current boyfriend, the vulgar wannabe father and now the antie. The rest of her friends (if they ever were others) they most probably given up by now.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:45 pm   Post subject: The Daily   

Jools wrote:
From the UW Daily:
"Amanda Knox’s trial rescheduled to January"

http://tinyurl.com/5kxbzh"...


Hi Jools. Much could be said about the MANY lies being touted by Amanda's Aunt. Honesty doesn't appear to be a requirement for these people, only 'Throw as much mud as you possibly can and hope some sticks.'

I also note from that link to The Daily, there's Sam/Achr/someonewhoknows/one of the 'Friends of Amanda' now OPENLY promoting and linking to the Cook's Smog. Doesn't that just say it all?

_________________
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Offline Corrina


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:24 pm   Post subject: Hey Cuz   

cindy wrote:
[
corrina... i like your humor... we must be cousins in different lives.... something like that


Aw, shucks. :oops: Watch it now; you could be guilty by association with a Mignini groupie :lol: Thanks, Cindy! We can still be cousins; we're all related anyway, aren't we?
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:50 pm   Post subject:    

""Packrick" might be surprised to learn that he is African American."

Following this stupid naming whites should be called "European Americans" and indians "American Americans"
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Offline Corrina


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:58 pm   Post subject: Nice   

bolint wrote:
""Packrick" might be surprised to learn that he is African American."

Following this stupid naming whites should be called "European Americans" and indians "American Americans"


Nice one, Bo!
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:06 pm   Post subject: Values what are they?   

I wonder if this Janet H. is the irresponsible mother that allows Frank Sfarzo to feature a picture of a little girl undisguised and even name on his Shock-Blog.

Perugia Shock a blog that deals with murder, some disturbing pictures, constant swearing, sex orgies and drugs. And neither Frank nor the family seem to be bothered at all.

How can the Knox/Mellas family/supporters, visit that site and not have Frank disguised the child picture is beyond my comprehension, but I guess it speaks volume as to what type of people they are. They must think that the word VALUES is an accounting terminology.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:28 pm   Post subject: Less than zero   

Jools wrote:

Quote:
Perugia Shock a blog that deals with murder, some disturbing pictures, constant swearing, sex orgies and drugs. And neither Frank nor the family seem to be bothered at all.


In fact, they seem to positively take delight in the attention. As far as I can tell, Frank's blog has never recovered from Anne Bremner's takeover. It was on a slippery slope before that day, but has now given up all pretences of being a blog and is just a smelly bog where people trade insults with one another or shout out insults to people who don't even post there. It's a train wreck in slow motion.

Jools added:
Quote:
How can the Knox/Mellas family/supporters, visit that site and not have Frank disguised the child picture is beyond my comprehension, but I guess it speaks volume as to what type of people they are. They must think that the word VALUES is an accounting terminology.


I guess the idea clumsily conveyed by the photo (How could this guitar-playing girl beloved by small children be involved in a murder?) outweighed any other considerations. If the philosophy behind the PR campaign -- and I'm speaking about all levels of the campaign, including the web dimension -- could be summed up in a phrase, it would be this: The ends justify the means. So it really does come down to VALUES.
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 12:10 am   Post subject: Re: Less than zero   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Jools wrote:

Quote:
Perugia Shock a blog that deals with murder, some disturbing pictures, constant swearing, sex orgies and drugs. And neither Frank nor the family seem to be bothered at all.


In fact, they seem to positively take delight in the attention. As far as I can tell, Frank's blog has never recovered from Anne Bremner's takeover. It was on a slippery slope before that day, but has now given up all pretences of being a blog and is just a smelly bog where people trade insults with one another or shout out insults to people who don't even post there. It's a train wreck in slow motion.

Jools added:
Quote:
How can the Knox/Mellas family/supporters, visit that site and not have Frank disguised the child picture is beyond my comprehension, but I guess it speaks volume as to what type of people they are. They must think that the word VALUES is an accounting terminology.


I guess the idea clumsily conveyed by the photo (How could this guitar-playing girl beloved by small children be involved in a murder?) outweighed any other considerations. If the philosophy behind the PR campaign -- and I'm speaking about all levels of the campaign, including the web dimension -- could be summed up in a phrase, it would be this: The ends justify the means. So it really does come down to VALUES.


I understand why they are doing it, but I still think they could have the face of the little girl scramble, blurred and no need to have the actual name of the child shown.
It would still send the same message of the guitar-playing girl beloved by small children and all that. Personally I wouldn't even allow a picture of my dog on a crime blog let alone one of my child. These people have no values what so ever.
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Offline Fly by Night


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:07 am   Post subject: Family Values   

I read somewhere that the screenplay for the new movie "Rachel Getting Married" was actually inspired by the extended Knox family with Anne Hathaway's character, Kym, being a rough translation of Amanda.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:19 am   Post subject: Ho ho ho, Merry Christmas   

FBN wrote:

Quote:
I read somewhere that the screenplay for the new movie "Rachel Getting Married" was actually inspired by the extended Knox family with Anne Hathaway's character, Kym, being a rough translation of Amanda.


:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:35 am   Post subject:    

Skep wrote:
Early on, John Kercher is reported to have said that Meredith found her flatmate a bit eccentric and was astonished that she had already picked up a boyfriend. Since then, the family has been extremely reticent. One can imply, as Frank and then Candace did, that they are being gagged (figuratively, of course) by their lawyer.....


They've refused to comment right from the get-go:

November 7,2007

THE devastated family of murdered British student Meredith Kercher paid tribute to their “very special girl” last night.

Her father John, mother Arline and sister Stephanie, 24, yesterday endured the ordeal of viewing her body at an Italian morgue....

As they spoke of their loss, they refused to comment on recent arrests.....Mr Kercher, a freelance journalist from Croydon, Surrey, his ex-wife Arline and Stephanie were joined at the press conference by Edward Chaplin, British Ambassador to Italy.

He said: “This tragedy has shocked everyone who knew Meredith, both in Perugia and in the United Kingdom. There have been developments in the case. I will not comment on them because the investigation is still ongoing....


The Daily Express

At this stage Maresca hadn't even been appointed as the Kercher's lawyer.





But I have a theory - No: 14,237C :lol:

And yes I've done the reading:

By the 3rd of November, the investigators were saying they thought Meredith knew her killer. They didn't think the motive was robbery because her computer and some gold jewelry were left untouched. There was no mention of money or credit cards.

By the 4th of November they had Lalli's report and had decided sex was the likely motive. They also thought that more than one person was involved and that the crime scene was staged. They still maintained there was no suggestion of robbery.

On the 5/6/7th November, the Kerchers will have spoken to the police. The investigators will have asked them if they had any information which could help with their inquiries. Inevitably this would have consisted of information regarding Meredith' possessions, bank accounts credit cards and the like as well as any information Meredith may have given them regarding her acquaintances in Italy, especially Amanda Knox.

I think the Kercher's will have had plenty to say about Meredith's relationship with Amanda Knox. It's also worth remembering Meredith's phone call to her mother only half an hour before she was killed. I think Arline Kercher could well be a prosecution witness, especially with regard to missing rent money.


Why so?

When was it taken?

Rudy Guede was charged along with Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito of the theft, but he wasn't charged with crime scene staging.

Rudy Guede also knew the money was missing.

BUT They all ran from the house shortly after Meredith's scream. She wasn't even dead. It's possible they took her phones at this time to prevent her calling for help, but no way did they stage the theft of her credit cards and money in those moments of panic. So how did Rudy know about the missing money if it wasn't taken before Meredith was killed? There has never been any suggestion by the prosecution that he returned to the cottage with the other two to stage any robbery or help in the cleanup. He was simply charged with theft.

So, according to my theory, Meredith's money was stolen BEFORE she was killed. I think it quite likely Meredith complained to her mother about the missing cash in her 9:30 phone call and Arline Kercher is a witness. And just as Meredith's friends haven't spoken to the press about their evidence, neither have the Kerchers.
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 2:05 am   Post subject:    

:arrow:

_________________
R.I.P
Meredith Kercher.


Last edited by DeathFish 2000 on Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:46 am   Post subject:    

Some interesting early stories:

Meredith knew her killer. Police examining car park CCTV. They've already interviewed Meredith's 3 friends she was with on the night. They know she left them at 9:00pm. They've inteviewed the boys from downstairs. investigators are waiting to receive printouts on phone calls made and received from mobile phones of the victim (apparatus from which the ventiduenne not be separated ever). Particularly complex investigations also the need for consideration of possible contacts, including international.

The police are also searching for the weapon used to kill the girl - perhaps a knife or a screwdriver - and the key to the door of the room where the young woman was found dead. The chamber has been found locked, and the possibility remains that the murder privileged to have killed and then both fled from the window. Traces of blood were found on a window and a handkerchief near a railing that defines the way over, as well as in the victim's room...


Google tranlation of La Repubblica - 3rd November 2007



Girl slain, perhaps first raped
might have had a sexual relationship, the night he was consumed murder, the English student of 22 years, Meredith Kercher, killed in his bedroom in a cottage in St. Anthony Avenue near the old town Perugia. On the body of the young were detected signs that could indicate un'avvenuta colluttazione. This is apparent from the first inspection conducted on the body of the student.. But I will be only the autopsy examination, scheduled for Sunday morning at 8.30...

By day they arrived parents of the girl.The father does not know capacitive touch of the terrible end to his daughter: "We are devastated. I am so totally in shock that I can not even cry or get angry. Meredith was so beautiful, so smart. The wanted so much good. Are of stone, you vent John Kercher. Freelance journalist, with two other children (Lyle 28 and Stephanie 24), Kercher has started to worry yesterday afternoon when he heard that a British girl was savagely killed in the Umbrian town: "I called Meredith - told - to make sure that was not her but her phone was switched off.I must have tried fifteen or twenty times. " Then, after contacts with the tabloid Daily Mirror and the Foreign Office, the cold shower: "When I heard the name I was clinging to the hope that it was another Meredith or that there was a mistake. But they told me that had been identified by one of his companions at home. Now touch me as a father, to identify it officially and it is a thought that I was unbearable. " Brunette, brown eyes, educated at a private school from 15,000 a year, Meredith was residing with his father divorced in Coulsdon, a neighborhood south of London...



Google translation of Corriere Della Sera - 3rd November 2007



The autopsy: Meredith was raped
"They could have been in two"

Meredith Kercher was first raped and then killed with a blow to the throat. These first necropsy findings conducted on the body of British student in Italy for a time frame, murdered on the night between Thursday and Friday. And investigators do not exclude that they can be in two to attack the girl and her violence.

The autopsy has therefore already given the first confirmation the assumptions investigation. The analysis is now focused on fingerprints and the organic material found at the crime, along with traces of the two mobile computing. According to investigators, then, the girl knew the murderess.....

The autopsy. Meredith has struggled with the murderess - or killers - that would have forced a sexual relationship.This one of the examinations. Seven hours, after which the medical legal Luca Lalli said that there were "interesting elements" which was useful on a "confrontation" with the judge and investigators. So, soon after, Lalli, Giuliano Mignini pm on coordinating investigations and investigators are back in the cottage of the crime. A tour that did think of a breakthrough, because with them was a young woman, it seems one of the friends of the victim....


Google translation of La Repubblica - 4th November 2007

The young woman was Amanda. This was probably around the time that Raffaele gave his interview to Kate Mansey. He said to her that Amanda was still helping the police with their inquiries.



He fought hard, perhaps Murderess has an accomplice
Forced sex before dying
That night with Meredith were two.


The signs say that they left on the body and that the legal doctor noted. Obviously we expect the results of laboratory tests, in any case, the end of student killed in Perugia London at dawn on Friday was terrible: the knife that entered the neck was used even before the murder. Perhaps to threaten, not to force a rebel.

The affected skin with torture, as every moment of this story, appear without mercy. Why Meredith, who would have attained 22 years in December, that night will not be spared nothing. The girl had a sexual relationship before he died, but whoever kills the viewer does not even make the grab from behind and cuts the trachea. The walls of the room testify: there is blood up to half a meter from the ceiling.....

The boys who live there seem to have an alibi - a home for the bridge festival - but the reasoning of those who investigates is another, even quell'appartamento is continuously rented to students, and the lock has never changed, then there many enter and leave, friends, acquaintances, Italians and foreigners.

For that boys under the plan are continually questioned. It is what many young captain, in Perugia: the police and the magistrate has heard some North African, one in particular, who attended St. Anthony Avenue, the street where he lived Meredith. And are continuing even questioned his party: brought yesterday evening, along with another friend, Sophie, again in the house.

In the presence of pm, Giuliano Mignini, and men's mobile directed by Marco and Domenico Profazio Chat. A survey of more than one hour: one of the girls, exit, is put a towel on his face. What knows? Mostly, it seems. What can be witnessed, it is difficult to say. What is certain is that the investigations have a precise direction: the friends of Meredith, a sbandato not happened by chance. As a random, in this horrible story, there is little: the girls who live with English, that night, are all out, and boys under the plan started. Who kills Meredith, probably knows. Do not know, perhaps not far away cameras. In any event, before leaving, because it goes in the house under the plan? There are plants of marijuana, nell'orto, but he wants more: perhaps change. He has the keys, knows that there is no one can find men's clothes. Who knows.....


Google translation - Corriere Della Sera - 5th November 2007

Is this the magic moment when the keys were found in Amanda's room????

Who knows?

I assume it was Amanda who used the towel to shield her face from the cameras as she left.
I suspect that on the way the police stopped to pick up Raffaele Sollecito and said they wanted to talk to him. By then, they knew from his phone records that he and Amanda weren't at any party on the night of the 1st.

EDIT: Correct protocol would dictate that Amanda was present to give permission for her room to be searched. She was at this stage still a witness. Did a search of Amanda's room turn up Meredith's keys along with the boys? He could have checked Meredith's key without leaving the house.
Did he want to try the other keys to check that they were the keys to the flat downstairs?

Was the finding of the keys a turning moment?

A real translation of the relevent section of this Corriere story would be appreciated.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 5:43 am   Post subject: Allegedly?   

Candace Dempsey wrote:
Posted by Candace Dempsey at 12/2/08 9:00 p.m. #223937

Someone a while back was asking how Rudy's fingerprints led to his arrest. It wasn't because he'd been convicted of a crime, although he had been caught breaking and entering in Perugia several times in the fall of 2008. He was released & not charged...


THE COOK'S SMOG



What, no 'allegedly' Candace? You need to delete yourself.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 7:14 am   Post subject: DATELINE FRIDAY NBC 10:00PM   

Just caught the end of the Dateline trailer for this coming Friday's big show! I believe it's the premiere of their new season.

Tune in to NBC at 10:00pm this coming Friday, December 5, 2008 for the latest (not) on the case! Didn't I hear that the crew was in Perugia a couple months ago?
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Offline daisysteiner


Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:59 pm

Posts: 490

PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:45 am   Post subject:    

New Post on Perugia Shock with comments from Amanda herself.

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2008/ ... etful.html

Nothing earth shattering from Ms Knox, just the stuff which has already been reported elsewhere or via her family. Is it me or do the responses sound more like someone answering for her? Perhaps the paranoia is catching :D

The rest of the article is more deconstructing witnesses from Frank. Working on the "who sat where and saw what" issue again with Amanda and the shopkeeper/witnesses denials that he is indeed the witness.

Like I said, nothing new! :D
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Offline nowo


Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 12:35 pm

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 11:04 am   Post subject:    

Hi Brian, regarding RG knowing about the missing money, maybe he returned to the scene with the others. The only basis for this that I have seen is Toto saying he was under the impression RS and AK were met by someone else, who he didn’t get a look at, immediately prior to their leaving the park.

The call from MK to her mother may indeed shed light on whether MK’s rent money was already missing. This perhaps was the catalyst (remember RG’s diary, ‘drugged up tart’ etc) for a row which escalated out of control. This forms the basis of an ‘unpremeditated’ scenario. The so-called ‘prank’ or ‘sex game’ gone wrong can be seen as either part of the escalation within this scenario or as forming the basis of another supposedly ‘unpremeditated’ scenario, one which doesn’t involve ‘missing money’. It depends on whether MK mentioned missing money to her mother and/or if you believe RG’s diary. ‘It was an accident’ or ‘moment of madness’ would normally be the refrain in these kinds of circumstances, anything but ‘I/we planned it and carried it out’. How a sustained group attack with knives which results in death can be termed ‘unpremeditated’ is another question. It’s obvious even to honours students that once you start you’re in big trouble if the victim knows you and survives.
What if their intention all along was to humiliate, torment and kill? Maybe all talk of arguments and escalations and pranks is either RG throwing red herrings or ILE attempting to rationalize and come to terms with the brutality of the attack on MK. Maybe the ‘argument’ had occurred in preceding days and this was the ‘escalation’, the end of the argument.
After a few weeks in court I wouldn’t be surprised to see ‘they are innocent’ become ‘it wasn’t premeditated’.
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Offline daisysteiner


Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:59 pm

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 11:08 am   Post subject:    

I was just reading what Jools has posted from Janet H. If that person really is Amanda's aunt then she is one of two things. 1. Clever and trying to distract people from real evidence or 2. As stupid as they come as the best part her answers have been proved as true or accepted by the courts as evidence including some of those witnesses with an alleged interest in fiction!

I am very interested to hear the Kercher family evidence and the friends of Meredith evidence which is actually presented in court as I think this could be the circumstantial evidence which tips the case towards conviction (the forensics are enough to convict but the circumstantial underlines a correct decision in my opinion). There is this strong claim by the Knox side that Meredith & Amanda were friends. This really will not bear up under the evidence presented by Mez's real friends and family. I also believe that the theory above about the money being missing prior to Meredith coming home and that she mentioned the theft to her mother. I cannot understand, other than to testify as back up to Sophie, Natalie etc & for impact statement purposes, why Arline Kercher is a witness.

In reply to Skep's post about the Kercher silence. I absolutely agree mate on why the Kercher's are silent. They have also said through their lawyers on a number of occasions that the Italian system, prosecutor and police have their utmost confidence & support. Which is why, when the Cook, Frank, Chris Mellas & friends start to put the boot into the prosecutor and not the evidence collected, they are really putting the boot into the Kerchers & their confidence in getting justice for their daughter. I've always said that they have exactly the same information as the Knox's and the Kerchers are the only truly independent parties here for they do not care who is convicted so long as it's the murderer(s), if you get my meaning. For the Kerchers to see that evidence then fully support the process going on says much to me about how much spin is coming from Amanda's side. They strike me as not the sort of people to allow a legal farce to continue in the daughters name, nor are they the sort of people to allow an innocent person to be convicted while their daughters killer goes free.

Apolgies for the wall O text, catching up on many excellent and thought provoking posts above :D
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 12:18 pm   Post subject:    

nowo wrote:

"The call from MK to her mother may indeed shed light on whether MK’s rent money was already missing. This perhaps was the catalyst (remember RG’s diary, ‘drugged up tart’ etc) for a row which escalated out of control. "

I don't think Rudy understands English well enough to overhear a phone conversation.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 12:26 pm   Post subject:    

Why doesn't Rudy mention Meredith's phone call to her mother?

He didn't know. It wasn't in the news at that time and so he couldn't include it in his version. If it had been in his presence it must have happaned before the "real killers" rushed in and Rudy surely would have mentioned it as it would support his peaceful presence version.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:35 pm   Post subject:    

bolint wrote:
Why doesn't Rudy mention Meredith's phone call to her mother?

He didn't know.
It wasn't in the news at that time and so he couldn't include it in his version. If it had been in his presence it must have happaned before the "real killers" rushed in and Rudy surely would have mentioned it as it would support his peaceful presence version.


Great logic bolint.

And I'll combine it with some other thoughts.

In the part of his diary when it is as if he is speaking to Amanda, amongst some others he poses this question of her. It stands on its own and it's never made sense in the context of the rest of his story:

He asks: Was it all of you downstairs?

Was he dropping a "heavy hint" to Amanda or the police?


When I dug up the Corriere story yesterday about the police activity at the cottage and Mignini entering downstairs with the keys, it reinforced something I often forget.

"Downstairs" is not accessible from the girls flat above. You have to go outside, along the road and down through the cottage car park.

One of the new witnesses says he saw Meridith, RG, AK and RS walking up from the car park on October 30th.

Why so? The witness says it was cold and raining, so they weren't sat in the garden.

I'd suggest it's possible if not probable that the 3 had accompanied Meredith when she used her boyfriends keys to feed the cat and water the plants.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 2:09 pm   Post subject:    

Brian, this Google translation is rather mysterious:
"A survey of more than one hour: one of the girls, exit, is put a towel on his face. What knows? Mostly, it seems. What can be witnessed, it is difficult to say. What is certain is that the investigations have a precise direction: the friends of Meredith, a sbandato not happened by chance. As a random, in this horrible story, there is little: the girls who live with English, that night, are all out, and boys under the plan started. Who kills Meredith, probably knows. Do not know, perhaps not far away cameras. In any event, before leaving, because it goes in the house under the plan? There are plants of marijuana, nell'orto, but he wants more: perhaps change. He has the keys, knows that there is no one can find men's clothes. Who knows..... "

My version:
"A house-search of more than on hour at one of the girls, she comes out, a towel put on her face. Does she know something? A lot, it seems. What can she be a witness of, it is difficult to say. What certain is that the investigations have a precise direction: the friends of Meredith, not a drifter who dropped in by chance. There is (a?) little random (element) in this horrible story: the girls who lived with the English girl were all out, the boys who lived below departed. Who kills Meredith probably knows that. Probably does not know of the cameras not far away. In any case, before leaving why does (he/she) goes to the house below? There are marijuana plants at the place, but (he/she) wants something else, perhaps to change clothes. (He/she) has the keys, knows that there is nobody there and can find men's clothes. Who knows ..."
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 2:34 pm   Post subject:    

daisysteiner wrote:
New Post on Perugia Shock with comments from Amanda herself.

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2008/ ... etful.html

Nothing earth shattering from Ms Knox, just the stuff which has already been reported elsewhere or via her family. Is it me or do the responses sound more like someone answering for her? Perhaps the paranoia is catching :D

The rest of the article is more deconstructing witnesses from Frank. Working on the "who sat where and saw what" issue again with Amanda and the shopkeeper/witnesses denials that he is indeed the witness.

Like I said, nothing new! :D


Hi Daisy

Frank: Then Marco has a very clear memory of Amanda coming to shop as soon as he opened the store on November 2. He remembers exactly the way she was dressed, the color of the scarf, the price of the Ace bleach of one year ago. Just he doesn't remember what she bought and if she bought something. He admits that the police came right after the crime and sized the whole record of the sales.
Interesting that he perfectly remembers things which can't be verified, such as how Amanda was dressed, but doesn't remember what is not in his control and can be easily verified by the police, such us the purchase she made. For some reasons this guy --with such a great memory, who knew Amanda so well and who was so hit by her presence in the store-- didn't say anything on November 6 (or in the days or weeks or months after) when he saw that she was arrested. He didn't say anything not even to the very asking journalist, who lives next door, who is 'a friend', who he knew 'for ages', who shops there 'every day'. This journalists, as we learned, is the one who lives right there and he's asking and re-asking everyone, buzzing to every door, insisting in all possible ways. Marco didn't say anything to his friend, client and neighbor for one year. But suddenly, just when the investigations were reopened, he felt like telling everything to him (not to the police, of course).
Then I had a particular experience with this guy when last week --as soon as he was known-- I went to interview him but he denied to be the witness. He didn't just deny, he made a great scene explaining that for him it would be impossible to say who came to the shop even one day later, even 12 hours later, even if the person was someone he knew, even if the person became then famous, even if.. even if... Really a great scene. Very convincing. To convince him that he was lying I had to come back next day showing the deposition he had signed...
So we have another information on this guy: besides having a weak memory (he can't remember what she bought) he's a great actor as well. And the greatest you are as an actor the less you are reliable in front of the judge. Especially if you were presented as a guy with a prodigious memory and you turn to be a bit forgetful, instead....


I think Frank is at war with the journalists of Il Giornal.

But his story does give some information:

The police went to the shop "right after the crime" (6th November??) and seized his till. What did they know then to cause them to do that.

This event by itself, following the murder and arrest would precisely cause the shopkeeper's "prodigeous memory" even if he didn't want to involve himself at that time by giving a statement. Such a real happening would be better than tying a knot in his hanky to fix his memory.

Nor do I think his reluctance to talk to Frank at all surprising. Frank's face and connection to Amanda's defence team must by now be well known to anyone in Perugia connected to this case. It won't just be the police warning witnesses not to talk to him in particular.

The shopkeeper does however appear willing to talk to "some" others.

This from Damiano at the All of Us for Meredith website

The manager of the supermarket says AK was waiting outside the shop at 7'45am and then came in when it opened. He says he can't remember if she bought anything and can't check because the police seized the till. He also says RG once came into his shop shortly followed by RS. RG bought a can of coke and left, shortly followed by RS. On another occasion, RS and AK were seen by the manager in his shop.

The editor of GU says the shop assistant remembered seeing AK in the supermarket that morning. He also says that people are more willing to talk to journalists than they are the police.

Parts of the December 'bathmat shuffle' interrogation was on TV tonight, as was an interview with Toto and the manager of the supermarket. Sarzanini was on the programme and there was a little confusion on when AK's diary extracts were written. After shouting for a while, they seemed to establish that the sex bits were written between Aug-Oct 2007 and the rest at the police station or in prison.


With reference to the posts above about visits to the old TC crime board (and the even earlier Haloscans.) Anyone wishing to check up on information about this crime should also check out the All of Us for Meredith website. There is a lot of longstanding knowledge amongst the posters there. and Damian lives in Perugia. He can be a good foil to Frank's local disinformation.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:01 pm   Post subject: Shop Keeper   

Brian wrote:
Nor do I think his reluctance to talk to Frank at all surprising. Frank's face and connection to Amanda's defence team must by now be well known to anyone in Perugia connected to this case. It won't just be the police warning witnesses not to talk to him in particular.



Hi Brian. I'm left thinking of what Yummi wrote on Candace's. He said, that in Italy there's often a culture of witnesses being reluctant to come forward or have people know they are witnesses, because there it's seen as bad form by ones peers to be getting 'involved' in something that doesn't directly concern you...that your trustworthiness amongst your peers comes under question. I think this could well explain the shopkeeper's silence. After all, he wasn't just giving testimony against some random person out on the street...but a CUSTOMER of his, who had been in his shop on numerous occassions. How would that go down with his other customers? He could testify against them next. Those might be the reasons why he was reluctant to speak. It's never good buisness to give testimony against a customer in a small town that hasn't committed any wrong against you personally.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:13 pm   Post subject: Not Welcome   

Brian wrote:
Anyone wishing to check up on information about this crime should also check out the All of Us for Meredith website. There is a lot of longstanding knowledge amongst the posters there. and Damian lives in Perugia. He can be a good foil to Frank's local disinformation.


Well Brian, new people aren't welcome there. It's 'exclusive'. Therefore, I couldn't really advise members/guests to go there. And to be honest, the name of their board isn't too welcome here either. That said, let's move on.

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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:24 pm   Post subject:    

bolint wrote:
Brian, this Google translation is rather mysterious:
"A survey of more than one hour: one of the girls, exit, is put a towel on his face. What knows? Mostly, it seems. What can be witnessed, it is difficult to say. What is certain is that the investigations have a precise direction: the friends of Meredith, a sbandato not happened by chance. As a random, in this horrible story, there is little: the girls who live with English, that night, are all out, and boys under the plan started. Who kills Meredith, probably knows. Do not know, perhaps not far away cameras. In any event, before leaving, because it goes in the house under the plan? There are plants of marijuana, nell'orto, but he wants more: perhaps change. He has the keys, knows that there is no one can find men's clothes. Who knows..... "

My version:
"A house-search of more than on hour at one of the girls, she comes out, a towel put on her face. Does she know something? A lot, it seems. What can she be a witness of, it is difficult to say. What certain is that the investigations have a precise direction: the friends of Meredith, not a drifter who dropped in by chance. There is (a?) little random (element) in this horrible story: the girls who lived with the English girl were all out, the boys who lived below departed. Who kills Meredith probably knows that. Probably does not know of the cameras not far away. In any case, before leaving why does (he/she) goes to the house below? There are marijuana plants at the place, but (he/she) wants something else, perhaps to change clothes. (He/she) has the keys, knows that there is nobody there and can find men's clothes. Who knows ..."


Thanks for that improved version Bolint, even if I was wrong about Mignini trying the keys.

I think there may be a lot of interesting information to be found in the news stories of the 5th November.

I'm beginning to get a good impression of the investigation in those first 4 days.

November 2nd was discovery day, initial inquiries, planning the investigation and calling in the right people.

On the 3rd and 4th November the cottage belonged to the forensics people in their white suits.

The 5th of November was the first day that the whole cottage could be gone over in a systematic search for evidence other than that which was directly connected to the forensics and the immediate crime scenes.

The journalist from Corriere obviously watched those events unfolding. In one paragraph he/she put together all the big wigs from the investigation, a search, one "friend" of Meredith leaving with a towel over her face, CCTV, keys and the flat downstairs. The search wasn't random and somebody must have told him/her that the plants hadn't been stolen, it was something else which interested the investigators about downstairs.

Perhaps, it was Joe T's pizza? :lol:
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:33 pm   Post subject: Re: Not Welcome   

Michael wrote:
Brian wrote:
Anyone wishing to check up on information about this crime should also check out the All of Us for Meredith website. There is a lot of longstanding knowledge amongst the posters there. and Damian lives in Perugia. He can be a good foil to Frank's local disinformation.


Well Brian, new people aren't welcome there. It's 'exclusive'. Therefore, I couldn't really advise members/guests to go there. And to be honest, the name of their board isn't too welcome here either. That said, let's move on.


Well Michael

I must have misunderstood Soozie's invite to new people posted at the Croydon Guardian.

Just because there was a dispute back on TC, I still have a lot of respect for the people posting there.

Also, I wasn't aware that this board was unhappy about links to other sources of information a la Frank and the Cooks Smog.

That said, let's move on.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:54 pm   Post subject: Re: Not Welcome   

Brian S. wrote:
Michael wrote:
Brian wrote:
Anyone wishing to check up on information about this crime should also check out the All of Us for Meredith website. There is a lot of longstanding knowledge amongst the posters there. and Damian lives in Perugia. He can be a good foil to Frank's local disinformation.


Well Brian, new people aren't welcome there. It's 'exclusive'. Therefore, I couldn't really advise members/guests to go there. And to be honest, the name of their board isn't too welcome here either. That said, let's move on.


Well Michael

I must have misunderstood Soozie's invite to new people posted at the Croydon Guardian.

Just because there was a dispute back on TC, I still have a lot of respect for the people posting there.

Also, I wasn't aware that this board was unhappy about links to other sources of information a la Frank and the Cooks Smog.

That said, let's move on.


Well Brian, it was the arrival of new members and resentment of that fact that was one of the primary causes of the 'dispute'. But, in any case, you'll note, I allowed your linkage to stand. My 'unhappyness', is purely in regard to the opening of old wounds, ones that haven't and won't heal...which is something I feel isn't productive for the group. Frank and The Cook, well...they aren't personal, rather they are just part of our buisness of doing right by Meredith and her family. This upsets me a lot, so I don't really want to talk about it any more, so as you say...onwards.

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Offline daisysteiner


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:13 pm   Post subject:    

Hi Brian

I thought the guts of what is in Frank's article is not new as far as I can see. I seem to remember the shopkeeper's till being taken away in Nov 2007, which is why I was shocked that people seem to be treating this fella as a surprise/late witness. If they took away his till I'm pretty damn sure the police would have taken a statement at the same time. If I am wrong with that then feel free to correct me, always happy to be wrong m'dears :D

If I was the shopkeeper/shop worker, I wouldn't be answering questions to any Tom, Cook or Frank who came asking. I'd certainly want to see credentials before talking, and me being a little mercenary, I might want a spot of lunch to make the whole story easier to tell! Wouldn't make me a liar or someone who could be discredited; it would however, make me someone who unless you are police, doesn't give up something for nothing.

Is the Damien on the All of Us site the same Damieno 33 who translates on a Wordpress blog?
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:18 pm   Post subject:    

More on the trial:

The family of Meredith calls for the trial behind closed doors, Amanda and Raffaele - through their lawyers - they know who did not lock down the interest in hearing and the prosecutor did not yet disbanded the reserve.

It will decide Jan. 16 whether the first real time audience for a longer follow investigations by the international press will turn into confrontation 'secret'. Tomorrow the lawyer Francesco Maresca who assists Kercher in Perugia will deposit in the hands of the President of the Court, Giancarlo Massei, the panel to urge the hearing in camera or in the alternative rotation within the classroom or among reporters, still, the possibility that the process is followed at a distance through a circuit which transmits audio and video in another room. Request to that effect, is also the dell'Umbria of reporters who becomes the spokesman of the international press to ensure correct information of another penalty.....


Google translation of La Nazione
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:23 pm   Post subject: INTERFERENCE   

A very informative post from Yummi assessing the interference by the 'Friends of Amanda' campaign:

Yummi wrote:
Posted by Yummi at 12/3/08 2:57 a.m. #224048

Yes, in Italy, people support suspects,try to influence the media and courts, rally, and even protest. I am surprised that the media and the prosecutor find that such a response for Amanda from America is out of line. The Ghanian boy beat up by Italian police in Parma also has the support of his countrymen. What's wrong with that?

There is nothing wrong in supporting a person or in supporting the idea of a person's innocence.

Btw the Ghanian boy has in fact Italian nationality, and had the support from Italian people as well.

There is something wrong - on the strategical point of view - and something elese illegal, in the arguments and means that were used in this case.

The illegal part is expressed by Anne Bremner and by those who say "it is obvious that Rudy Guede did it alone", and "there is a straightforward solution to the case". It is a crime to declare those things in Italy. One thing is to support or claim somebody's innocence. One other, is to claim a solution or an evidence in a case. You can't use a possible sombody else's guilt as an argument for a defense, unless you are a constituted part in the trial. It is a serious crime. There is not the same degree or kind of "freedom of speech" here as in the Usa. Some subtile differences in what you claim are important. If Rudy is acquitted for the charge of burglary, an italian "Anne Bremner" would be put under trial for slander and for interfering with investigation.

There are also more serious (strategically I mean) behaviors from supporters, that could have created some problems to Amanda and Raf. One, is the legitimacy issue about a possile "tainted evidence". It is not the idea of supporting innocence. It is the argument. If youe endorse the idea of corrupted evidence/ investigation - not just the idea of innocence - you make a very peculiar choice, that in this case is different fom the attorney's strategy and is interfering with them, in fact you are damaging their credibility. If the ones who make this claims is a foreign country, maybe a foreign judge and if this hapens on a political authority level, it is a complication because in the judiciary sistem, politics are something from which they defend from, not something they deal with. If you take legal issues, the machine works. If you take political initiative / issues, they will only use force.

And, there are many arguments that are simply wrong, too many, not precise and uninformed. The wide attack against prosecutor Mignini - say for example that he had "problems" with the law - is not a corret picture of the situation, simply your view of the whole environment is not complete, from a foreign country there is not enough information. I see his "problems" as complex matter that, it cannot be simply used in this case, in this vague way. This has to be approached and known with extreme care, or you will destroy immediatly your credibility as a support group.

Other propaganda actios were also wrong (as usable arguments) - like the video in the downstairs apartament calling for a suspect od "mishandling" the evidence - such arguments also cannot be done outside the court and they are exclusive competence of the defense attorneys. Saying that witnesses are on "payroll" is also defamating. And, the general idea of a "poisoned" environment where it is impossible a "fair trial", is basically wrong and not usable. All this kind of arguments were used, in the case of Amanda, to create an extrajudicial pressure from an extra-jurisdictional power. The CSM detected this and issued an advice report to Judge Micheli's office. As a consequence of this order by his bosses, Micheli considered this information about the existence o supporter group, as a possible security issue for the surveillance of the suspects.


THE COOKS SMOG

Looking at this, I think it would be a very serious mistake indeed for Heavey to testify as a witness for Amanda...I think on arrival in Italy he may find himself accommodated in a prison cell next door to her, rather then a hotel.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:26 pm   Post subject: Brain rot   

Brian wrote:

Quote:
Michael wrote:
Brian wrote:
Anyone wishing to check up on information about this crime should also check out the All of Us for Meredith website. There is a lot of longstanding knowledge amongst the posters there. and Damian lives in Perugia. He can be a good foil to Frank's local disinformation.


Well Brian, new people aren't welcome there. It's 'exclusive'. Therefore, I couldn't really advise members/guests to go there. And to be honest, the name of their board isn't too welcome here either. That said, let's move on.


Well Michael

I must have misunderstood Soozie's invite to new people posted at the Croydon Guardian.

Just because there was a dispute back on TC, I still have a lot of respect for the people posting there.

Also, I wasn't aware that this board was unhappy about links to other sources of information a la Frank and the Cooks Smog.

That said, let's move on.


For what it's worth, I agree with Brian. All sources of information are useful, even polluted or hostile ones. I know that many people received invitations to join the other board and I assume that all are welcome except for Michael, me and probably Fast Pete. (Have I missed anyone?) It doesn't matter why; it doesn't mean that others should not join or just look; it doesn't mean no one can link or refer to the board.

There are many ways of looking at the "split." But the most important way is to see it as totally unimportant in the larger scheme of things. Personally, I think it was inevitable at some point for numerous and unrelated reasons. And incidentally, the majority of the members of the TC Board were either annoyed by the dispute or indifferent to it. Most people just wanted to discuss the case, its main and peripheral players, and the coverage (which has become a subect in and of itself). To all of you, let me say, that's what we're here for and that's what we do.

Large boards have a way of forming cliques over time.
The TC board attracted a few prolific new posters with lots of energy after the Chris Mellas/Goofy email threat to Steve Huff. As co-moderator and co-administrator, I welcomed all newcomers. Today, I stand by that requirement. As a result, we have become the home of a number of valuable posters. A small group of posters decided they preferred a more intimate setting. I think that's just fine. I think it would have been better had we found a way to split amicably and quietly, but that did not happen. I think that did not happen in part because of some of the personalities involved. Quiet is not their way. I also think that did not happen because a couple of people objected to Fast Pete's desire for a more high-profile website devoted to Meredith.

I encouraged Fast Pete in his project, and think that he (with the help of several people) has done some incredible things. The full extent of what he has accomplished is not yet entirely visible, but it will be. And he has done it for Meredith Kercher. There is no profit involved, no book deal, no glory seeking. If I have one beef about the other board, it is that a couple of its members are convinced that Pete (and possibly others, I don't know?) has an ulterior motive and that I was somehow recruited to divert the board to a new home, his blog. This is false and silly. That doesn't mean people won't continue to believe it if it floats their boat.

Finally, the obscure and stupid "dispute" back on TC does not detract from the quality of the posting on this board or the other one. Anything said there (or here) to dredge up this dispute is not worth the space it takes up. But sometimes it makes people feel better to believe they have absolutely done the right thing. I include myself. Speaking only for myself, I think that discussion of the "dispute" is a waste of time. It's like talking about your divorce after it has been finalized. It's over and talk of it becomes rapidly boring.

But discussion and criticism of ideas and even their authors is interesting and useful. And it absolutely does not matter where they come from.

It also does not matter where people post. People post where they feel comfortable and/or where they feel they have something to contribute. Look at Frog-y-rana. He has become the most effective poster by far on Candace's blog. He is engaging with people who are totally hostile to him and his origins, including a number of people who are very close to the Knox family. Why should he not continue to post there?

Likewise, if the other board is soliciting new members it means they want to open their discussion up to new voices. That is a positive thing, no question about it. As for Frank's blog, the other main forum for discussion, anyone who wants to can post there. Personally, I think it is a total waste of time unless you have a factual question for Frank. Otherwise, the comments section has degenerated into a place where people go to trash Amanda Knox, Frank, Candace, Michael and others, and the talk always degenerates into scatological references. That's what happens when people like Goofy, DJ and Chris are left unsupervised. At least Candace provides them with a more structured environment. I would not and do not post there because I think there is absolutely nothing to gain from it. But that's just me.

Let's not forget Fast Pete's True Justice for Meredith site. Comments are welcome there, and so are longer, signed posts. To clear up any misunderstanding that lingers from the TC board, posting is a voluntary, unpaid activity the goal of which is to keep Meredith Kercher from being snuffed out entirely.

Finally, I urge everyone to leave comments in the space provided under most mainstream articles about this case. I always leave a short post with a link to this board and the TJMK site. It doesn't have to be polemical, just factual. People are working hard here to "advertise" what we are doing. It is not for profit. It is for Meredith.

So please, let's not waste time on such unimportant matters. Provide links to any site and discuss ideas floated on any site. Frank and Candace have decided, for nakedly self-serving reasons wrapped up in pompous rationalization (with red ribbons), that no links to this board or Pete's blog shall be allowed. They are stupid to do so but are acting fully within their rights. I'm all in favor of NOT doing the same.

One of the posters who has produced the most in terms of tangible "things" -- Kermit -- is also one of the posters who cares the least about issues of ownership of material. I agree with Kermit. What is produced on the boards and the blogs belongs to everyone and is the result of input from everyone who participates. I get lots of messages from people who never post but who rely on this board (and others, probably) for information. Don't kid yourselves. The PR people and others attracted to this case are very savvy and hard-working. The only way to counter their efforts is to expose the spin, pursue the truth (no matter where it is found) and not get bogged down in totally trivial matters like who is or is not welcome to post on a board. It can rot your brain.
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:27 pm   Post subject:    

Daisy wrote:
Is the Damien on the All of Us site the same Damieno 33 who translates on a Wordpress blog?


Yes, and translator Passerotta on Damiano33 is Sparrow who also speaks Italian. She was one of the three who translated Rudy's german diary, along with Traduco and Nicki.
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Offline daisysteiner


Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:59 pm

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:40 pm   Post subject:    

Thanks Brian. It's interesting that Candace will link to Damien's site considering his apparent opinions on Knox and not this one. Or is just another one of her little foibles which prove she is a couple of stops short of Dagenham, Unless I'm misreading/reading too much into Damien's tone & choices of passage to translate?

Hear hear Skep. I know nothing of the previous hoo-harr which led to a split between this site and another one I've never heard of!! I have however been involved in Internet Wars before and they never end well for anyone no matter how well meaning. The more sites that cover this story, the better, particularly as the All of Us site is on the same page as this site certainly in their approach to the defense. There needs to be more pro-victim sites and less pro-Knox sites if you ask me. I think that all the main blogs covering this are doing a service...even the ones you read for a laugh as once you pick through the nonsense, you get a sense of where the defense thinking is and what their focus is. Good to know when this close to a trial esp one which despite our individual opinions really could go either way at this stage for so many reasons
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:48 pm   Post subject: Scared in Perugia   

Michael posted Yummi's comment on the PI blog (I corrected the typos to make it easier to read):

Quote:
And, there are many arguments that are simply wrong, too many, not precise and uninformed. The wide attack against prosecutor Mignini - saying for example that he had "problems" with the law - is not a correct picture of the situation, simply your view of the whole environment is not complete, from a foreign country there is not enough information. I see his "problems" as a complex matter that, it cannot be simply used in this case, in this vague way. This has to be approached and known with extreme care, or you will destroy immediately your credibility as a support group.


As Brian noted, Mignini's trial was immediately postponed until March. I have heard that, as far as the charges against him are concerned, this is a routine matter. Prosecutors sometimes overstep boundaries, and sometimes do so for compelling reasons. The people who are leading the attack against Mignini either have a grudge against him because of this very incident or are totally ignorant of what exactly he is alleged to have done or both. Nobody has provided any proof of past abuses or a pattern of incompetence or evil. And nobody has shown what the connection is between these two cases, except for the fact that the prosecutor is the same person.

As Yummi notes, the simplistic argument against Mignini destroys the credibility of the support group and actually weakens the defense because it implies that this is their best argument.

Someone who knows or show me your sources or one of the trusted few posters on the PI blog actually wrote yesterday or the day before that people in Perugia are shaking in their boots. Mignini is that evil and scary. Who knew? And of course, as we know thanks to Frank he's against sex, drugs and rock-n-roll. :)
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:48 pm   Post subject: Enough   

Skep wrote:
I include myself. Speaking only for myself, I think that discussion of the "dispute" is a waste of time. It's like talking about your divorce after it has been finalized. It's over and talk of it becomes rapidly boring.


Exactly right. But one thing I won't be a part of is promoting their board..damned if I will. It upsets me too much even 'mentioning' it. We've done very well here without it. But, if you want to go that way, fine...but it'll be without me.

EDIT: And, in just one minute...you are about to see in part why I didn't want this whole thing raised...watch the comments

EDIT: Seems they changed their mind about posting right at the last minute.

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Last edited by Michael on Wed Dec 03, 2008 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 5:10 pm   Post subject: The fog of obfuscation   

Daisy Steiner wrote:

Quote:
Hear hear Skep. I know nothing of the previous hoo-harr which led to a split between this site and another one I've never heard of!! I have however been involved in Internet Wars before and they never end well for anyone no matter how well meaning. The more sites that cover this story, the better, particularly as the All of Us site is on the same page as this site certainly in their approach to the defense. There needs to be more pro-victim sites and less pro-Knox sites if you ask me. I think that all the main blogs covering this are doing a service...even the ones you read for a laugh as once you pick through the nonsense, you get a sense of where the defense thinking is and what their focus is. Good to know when this close to a trial esp one which despite our individual opinions really could go either way at this stage for so many reasons.


Sometimes ignorance is bliss! And in this case, it really doesn't matter. What matters, as you note, is making sure that the fog of obfuscation is not allowed to settle around this case to the detriment of Meredith's family and her memory. After going back and forth on the issue, I have come around to your view, that all of these sites are useful. Even the comments on Frank's blog are useful in exposing the ruthlessness and uncouth-ness of some of the Knox/Mellas FAF (family and friends). And thanks to Yummi and Frog-y-rana, Candace's blog is worth reading at least once a day. Indeed, had I not done so one day last week during my vacation, I would not have known that poor cherchezlafemme got the same dog-shit festooned welcome mat that greeted you when you first posted over there. And it did make me laugh. All anyone has to do is mention certain keywords (France, French, studying French, any French words) or choose a French-ish sounding handle, and they get the dog-doo welcome mat.
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Offline daisysteiner


Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:59 pm

Posts: 490

PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 5:13 pm   Post subject:    

Sorry Michael & Skep, my bad, no more mentiony! :D

Why would Mignini terrify Perugia? Does he own it or something? Or is he just a prosecutor who has zero powers until the police present him with a suspect to prosecute? Granted he does have a very fertile imagination but I fail to see how he can instill fear & terror!!? I could happily slap Mignini into next week for even mentioning stupid theories over this case instead of saying what it probably was, an argument when went to far leading to a girl being killed. Who needs orgy theories?


Last edited by daisysteiner on Wed Dec 03, 2008 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Jumpy


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:27 pm

Posts: 231

Location: US

PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 5:14 pm   Post subject: Shhh shhhh shhhhh   

Just in case anyone was interested in the television schedule for holiday movies I am linking it.

http://holidaypages4u.tripod.com/christ ... ies_tv.htm
(sorry it is only for US - will look into UK)

I love you.

Jumpy


;) HOw's that for a comment, eh Michael? ;)
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Offline daisysteiner


Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:59 pm

Posts: 490

PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 5:17 pm   Post subject:    

All you gotta do is ask Jumpy and thou shall recieve!!

http://www.tvguide.co.uk/

Best site for UK TV Listings other than Xmas Radio Times
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 5:19 pm   Post subject: Thick skins needed   

Michael wrote:

Quote:
Skep wrote:
I include myself. Speaking only for myself, I think that discussion of the "dispute" is a waste of time. It's like talking about your divorce after it has been finalized. It's over and talk of it becomes rapidly boring.

Exactly right. But one thing I won't be a part of is promoting their board..damned if I will. It upsets me too much even 'mentioning' it. We've done very well here without it. But, if you want to go that way, fine...but it'll be without me.


Michael, with all due respect I think you have to make a distinction between "promoting" a board and "discussing" what's on it or mentioning it as a source of information. How can you condemn Frank and Candace for their policy of banning all mention of our board and Pete's blog and then refuse to acknowledge the existence of a board whose members are a few people who used to post with us on the TC board?

I can understand why you might be upset, because I think you were treated quite rudely. As for me, I really don't care. When someone (anyone) writes things to me that are filled with hate and falsehoods, which I know to be falsehoods, then I pretty much discount what they say and move on. That's all you can do, really. Sometimes further discussion serves no purpose and, as Daisy Steiner notes, these things always end badly.

I don't know what comments section you are referring to and I don't have time to watch. If you mean that one particular anonymous poster will post at Frank's about the latest TC board dispute, well, so what? That disgruntled soul has nothing better to do than be the bearer of board and blog gossip. It's just some asshole, with a permanent seat on a barstool, who nobody listens to. Who cares?
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 5:21 pm   Post subject: Re: Shhh shhhh shhhhh   

Jumpy wrote:
Just in case anyone was interested in the television schedule for holiday movies I am linking it.

http://holidaypages4u.tripod.com/christ ... ies_tv.htm
(sorry it is only for US - will look into UK)

I love you.

Jumpy


;) HOw's that for a comment, eh Michael? ;)


Thanks for lightening the mood Jumpy :)

_________________
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Offline Jumpy


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 5:23 pm   Post subject:    

Thanks Daisy! I'm sad for you Brits since you can't get 24 hours of A Christmas Story!
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 5:42 pm   Post subject: Re: Thick skins needed   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Michael wrote:

Quote:
Skep wrote:
I include myself. Speaking only for myself, I think that discussion of the "dispute" is a waste of time. It's like talking about your divorce after it has been finalized. It's over and talk of it becomes rapidly boring.

Exactly right. But one thing I won't be a part of is promoting their board..damned if I will. It upsets me too much even 'mentioning' it. We've done very well here without it. But, if you want to go that way, fine...but it'll be without me.


Michael, with all due respect I think you have to make a distinction between "promoting" a board and "discussing" what's on it or mentioning it as a source of information. How can you condemn Frank and Candace for their policy of banning all mention of our board and Pete's blog and then refuse to acknowledge the existence of a board whose members are a few people who used to post with us on the TC board?

I can understand why you might be upset, because I think you were treated quite rudely. As for me, I really don't care. When someone (anyone) writes things to me that are filled with hate and falsehoods, which I know to be falsehoods, then I pretty much discount what they say and move on. That's all you can do, really. Sometimes further discussion serves no purpose and, as Daisy Steiner notes, these things always end badly.

I don't know what comments section you are referring to and I don't have time to watch. If you mean that one particular anonymous poster will post at Frank's about the latest TC board dispute, well, so what? That disgruntled soul has nothing better to do than be the bearer of board and blog gossip. It's just some asshole, with a permanent seat on a barstool, who nobody listens to. Who cares?


Sigh. Since you insist on carrying on with it...it has nothing to do with my being treated 'rudely'. What it has to do with is being stabbed in the bloody back by people I trusted, respected, liked and counted as friends, people that in the end were quite happy to slit the throat of a community they were part of and helped build, for selfish reasons of pettyness and bloody ego. Least amongst the reasons was 'Meredith'. They went out of their way to destroy. I can never forget, nor forgive that.

And actually, I was talking about 'this' message board. One of them had read the discussion and had just joined this board and was posting a message...only to change their mind at the last moment before posting it, which still may come...which is why it was my view to best let sleeping dogs lie...I for one don't want to see all that shit raked up again, it split us apart once...I won't let it again, especially now that the stakes in the case are so high. We've been doing a good job for Meredith and as you say, many have worked so hard for the group...let's not risk it now.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 5:43 pm   Post subject: Bah humbug!   

Jumpy wrote:

Quote:
Thanks Daisy! I'm sad for you Brits since you can't get 24 hours of A Christmas Story!


Rule Britannia!
What about It's A Wonderful Life? I feel like crushing small animals every time I see even a snippet of that sappy soup of a movie. I know I am in a small (and bitter) minority, but I really hate it!

One thing I love about France is that the national Christmas holiday movie which runs every year is called "Père Noël est une ordure," which basically translates as Father Christmas (aka Santa Claus) is a stinking piece of garbage. It's totally irreverent and really funny.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 5:58 pm   Post subject: Thought processes   

Michael wrote:

Quote:
And actually, I was talking about 'this' message board. One of them had read the discussion and had just joined this board and was posting a message...only to change their mind at the last moment before posting it, which still may come...which is why it was my view to best let sleeping dogs lie...I for one don't want to see all that shit raked up again, it split us apart once...I won't let it again, especially now that the stakes in the case are so high. We've been doing a good job for Meredith and as you say, many have worked so hard for the group...let's not risk it now.


I realized after I posted which board you were referring to. Don't worry, Michael. We need to make use of what is out there to preserve and enhance what has been accomplished so far. Can't we just leave it at that and let individuals decide what to mention, what to read and so on?

For what it's worth, I think that you were wronged and stabbed in the back and all those things. And sometimes, when I think of all the time I spent for naught and of lost friendships, I get angry and/or sad. So I do what is necessary to keep these things from interfering with my thought processes.

The fact is, two boards now exist where once there was only one. Some people post on both boards, and that is their right. It leads to some cross-fertilization, and that is positive. As far as I can tell, everyone reads everything so why get upset about it? That's counter-productive. Maybe you and I should continue this discussion offline? But I mean what I said about not wasting too much time over it. I lost a couple of weekends when the "split" was going down and in hindsight gained nothing of value from it. It was a total waste of time. Except for one thing: I learned that I never wanted to go through that again.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 6:07 pm   Post subject: Re: Bah humbug!   

( OT OT )

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Jumpy wrote:

Quote:
Thanks Daisy! I'm sad for you Brits since you can't get 24 hours of A Christmas Story!


Rule Britannia!
What about It's A Wonderful Life? I feel like crushing small animals every time I see even a snippet of that sappy soup of a movie. I know I am in a small (and bitter) minority, but I really hate it!

One thing I love about France is that the national Christmas holiday movie which runs every year is called "Père Noël est une ordure," which basically translates as Father Christmas (aka Santa Claus) is a stinking piece of garbage. It's totally irreverent and really funny.


Actually, it's a common misconception that Father Christmas and Santa Claus are the person...they are not. Santa Claus is actually saint (Saint Nicholas) and has his image designed by Coca Cola (unfortunately shifted onto Father Christmas also). Father Christmas is actually the pagan god of winter and his name used to be Father Winter or Old Man Winter:

http://suewidemark.com/santaandsue.htm

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


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Offline cindy


Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:57 pm

Posts: 26

Location: spain

PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 6:11 pm   Post subject: Re: Bah humbug!   

Michael wrote:
( OT OT )

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Jumpy wrote:

Quote:
Thanks Daisy! I'm sad for you Brits since you can't get 24 hours of A Christmas Story!


Rule Britannia!
What about It's A Wonderful Life? I feel like crushing small animals every time I see even a snippet of that sappy soup of a movie. I know I am in a small (and bitter) minority, but I really hate it!

One thing I love about France is that the national Christmas holiday movie which runs every year is called "Père Noël est une ordure," which basically translates as Father Christmas (aka Santa Claus) is a stinking piece of garbage. It's totally irreverent and really funny.


Actually, it's a common misconception that Father Christmas and Santa Claus are the person...they are not. Santa Claus is actually saint (Saint Nicholas) and has his image designed by Coca Cola (unfortunately shifted onto Father Christmas also). Father Christmas is actually the pagan god of winter and his name used to be Father Winter or Old Man Winter:

http://suewidemark.com/santaandsue.htm


man you guys are bumming me out ..... hearing about all these movies i cant watch since i am ¨here¨and not ¨home¨.
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 6:15 pm   Post subject:    

daisysteiner wrote:
Good to know when this close to a trial esp one which despite our individual opinions really could go either way at this stage for so many reasons


Hi Daisy,

There is no chance of Amanda Knox and Raffaele being found not guilty. Absolutely no chance. The case has been fiercely debated on various blogs for more than a year and it has had no effect on the judicial process in Italy. Candace Dempsey and, to a lesser extent Frank, have given their readers the impression that the case against Knox and Sollecito is weak. This is completely at odds with the comments of ALL the judges who have been involved in the case.

Judge Claudia Matteini, the judges at the Italian Supreme Court, judge Massimo Riccarelli, and judge Paolo Micheli all thought there were serious indications of Amanda Knox's and Raffaele Sollecito’s guilt and refused to grant them bail on the grounds that they are mentally unstable, dangerous and could reoffend.

All these judges had full access to the evidence available at the time. Judge Paolo Micheli studied the prosecutor's 10,000 page report for nearly five months. These judges are extremely experienced, abundantly qualified and objective. In comparison, Frank and Candace have no legal training whatsoever, no relevant qualifications and are anything but objective. They are basing their opinions on the snippets of favourable information that the Knox/Mellas clan allow them to see.

Furthermore, the judges have no hidden agenda. Candace and Frank have both shamefully sought to make money out of this tragic case. Candace announced to her handful of posters that she was writing a book right after Fast Pete had rumbled her on TJMK. She had kept it secret until then. Frank had a Paypal button for contributions on his blog for a while.

The pro-Amanda Knox propaganda has been relentlessly peddled by her PR company and her supporters. It doesn't even take a close examination of what they have said to know that they are misinforming the public:

1. The European press gave Amanda Knox the nickname Foxy Knoxy.

2. The crime scene was violated or compromised.

3. Amanda was hit or "smacked around" during her interrogation.

4. Amanda's interrogation lasted 14 hours.

5. Amanda only lied once.

6. Amanda's confession that she was at the cottage when Meredith was murdered was thrown out by the Italian Supreme Court. Her supporters NEVER mention her handwritten note to the police on 6 November.

7. There is no evidence of sexual violence which is deeply offensive to Meredith and her poor family.

8. Amanda is some shrinking violet and not a maneater. What nickname did she use? What was her number one priority when she was in Europe? What was the first thing she showed Meredith?

9. Amanda and Meredith were friends who never quarrelled.

10. Amanda has no criminal record.

We are getting a clearer and fuller picture of Amanda's and Raffaele's disturbed personalities. The latest leak from Amy Frost's and Robyn Butterworth's testimonies shows just how inappropriate, offensive and strange their behavior was at the police station. Other witnesses have testified that Amanda's and Raffaele's behaviour was highly bizarre and all the judges commented on it as well, and refused to grant them house arrest because of the risk they pose to the public.

Can you imagine Amanda and Raffaele on the witness stand? How are they going to explain away the multiple alibis, the repeated lies, their knowledge of Meredith's corpse? How's Amanda going to explain her reasons for doing the bathmat shuffle? They've both hidden behind their right to silence. In the courtroom there will be no hiding place and both of them will be unravelled.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 6:18 pm   Post subject: Call him the fat guy who brings you toys   

Michael wrote:

Quote:
Actually, it's a common misconception that Father Christmas and Santa Claus are the person...they are not. Santa Claus is actually saint (Saint Nicholas) and has his image designed by Coca Cola (unfortunately shifted onto Father Christmas also). Father Christmas is actually the pagan god of winter and his name used to be Father Winter or Old Man Winter.


I know, I was "americanizing" the translation. In France, he's called "Père Noël," but he's the same guy we have all come to associate with Santa since Coca Cola went to town. So I should have just called him "Santa," the fat guy with the white beard, red suit, black boots, sleigh and reindeer. And though Coca Cola designed him as Saint Nick, there is little about the Coca Cola guy that is remotely saintly. :)
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 6:26 pm   Post subject: Re: Thought processes   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Michael wrote:

Quote:
And actually, I was talking about 'this' message board. One of them had read the discussion and had just joined this board and was posting a message...only to change their mind at the last moment before posting it, which still may come...which is why it was my view to best let sleeping dogs lie...I for one don't want to see all that shit raked up again, it split us apart once...I won't let it again, especially now that the stakes in the case are so high. We've been doing a good job for Meredith and as you say, many have worked so hard for the group...let's not risk it now.


I realized after I posted which board you were referring to. Don't worry, Michael. We need to make use of what is out there to preserve and enhance what has been accomplished so far. Can't we just leave it at that and let individuals decide what to mention, what to read and so on?

For what it's worth, I think that you were wronged and stabbed in the back and all those things. And sometimes, when I think of all the time I spent for naught and of lost friendships, I get angry and/or sad. So I do what is necessary to keep these things from interfering with my thought processes.

The fact is, two boards now exist where once there was only one. Some people post on both boards, and that is their right. It leads to some cross-fertilization, and that is positive. As far as I can tell, everyone reads everything so why get upset about it? That's counter-productive. Maybe you and I should continue this discussion offline? But I mean what I said about not wasting too much time over it. I lost a couple of weekends when the "split" was going down and in hindsight gained nothing of value from it. It was a total waste of time. Except for one thing: I learned that I never wanted to go through that again.


Me? It was the WHOLE community that was stabbed in the back, a betrayal against all. Getting upset? I'm not getting upset...I never stopped being upset. I also don't see it as being simply a couple of weekends lost, the community lost a hell of a lot more then that. As for not wanting to go through that again? On that we are in complete accord.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 6:28 pm   Post subject: Explanations   

TM wrote:

Quote:
Can you imagine Amanda and Raffaele on the witness stand? How are they going to explain away the multiple alibis, the repeated lies, their knowledge of Meredith's corpse? How's Amanda going to explain her reasons for doing the bathmat shuffle? They've both hidden behind their right to silence. In the courtroom there will be no hiding place and both of them will be unravelled.


Great post, TM. I hope that the two suspects are called on to explain all of the little things -- the bathmat shuffle, the bleeding pierced that morphed yesterday into a cut ear thanks to Janet Huff, the made-up story about accidentally pricking Meredith with a knife while cooking, the broken pipe and mop, the real timing of the phone calls to police versus the alleged timing of them, etc.

It is one thing to see these things explained away by members of the support team, and quite another to hear what the sources for these stories have to say.

We have been told that Raffaele can't wait to get up on the stand and talk. But we have also been told, by his lawyer, that he is suffering from psychological problems brought on by prolonged incarceration. We have not been told that Amanda is prepared or wants to speak at the trial. But her lawyers have also hinted that the interrogation may have left lasting mental scars, though her family and friends say she is mentally strong and serene. Both have reportedly found great solace in religion.

I guess we have to wait and see.
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Offline DLW


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:41 pm

Posts: 623

PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 6:53 pm   Post subject:    

(OT) Speaking of Christmas, I was watching Papa Bill O‘Reilly (man of the people) last night on the Fox News Network. I was getting ready to change channels, but before I new it Anne Bremner appeared on the show. You can tell her face anywhere. Now she didn’t talk about this case, or anything really legal. She was mostly there to agree with Papa Bill about how the non believers in Washington State were trying to take religion out of Christmas. She also agreed that some of the people in Washington State are goofy, but she’s not surprised by that.
Now I don’t know how she juggles all these just causes and remembers all the little details of everything, but if there is an opening before a TV camera, she‘s ready. Or maybe she feels she’s helped Amanda enough for now, and is moving on?
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Offline Jumpy


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 7:06 pm   Post subject:    

Hi DLW,
I saw that too. She doesn't look anything like the picture at Frank's place! LOL!

Then I turned it off because I just cannot take seriously anything that woman says.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 7:13 pm   Post subject: Your five minutes of fame have expired....   

DLW wrote:

Quote:
Speaking of Christmas, I was watching Papa Bill O‘Reilly (man of the people) last night on the Fox News Network. I was getting ready to change channels, but before I new it Anne Bremner appeared on the show. You can tell her face anywhere. Now she didn’t talk about this case, or anything really legal. She was mostly there to agree with Papa Bill about how the non believers in Washington State were trying to take religion out of Christmas. She also agreed that some of the people in Washington State are goofy, but she’s not surprised by that.
Now I don’t know how she juggles all these just causes and remembers all the little details of everything, but if there is an opening before a TV camera, she‘s ready. Or maybe she feels she’s helped Amanda enough for now, and is moving on?


Congratulations for surviving exposure to Bill O'Reilly AND Anne Bremner in one sitting. The striking thing about her face is how little resemblence it bears to the photo Frank ran when he officially turned his blog over to her. Anne is right about one thing: at least one person in Washington state is Goofy, even though he goes by many other names. I don't know why she would be surprised by that since she probably knows him personally. :lol:

I think your first guess is the right one. I would only add that she may have felt she needed a no-brainer appearance in the USA to get rid of the bad taste in her mouth from her recent performance on Italian TV and earlier crime-scene analysis fiasco on MSNBC.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 7:24 pm   Post subject:    

Michael wrote:
Yummi's post at the cooks blog:

....Other propaganda actios were also wrong (as usable arguments) - like the video in the downstairs apartament calling for a suspect od "mishandling" the evidence - such arguments also cannot be done outside the court and they are exclusive competence of the defense attorneys. Saying that witnesses are on "payroll" is also defamating. And, the general idea of a "poisoned" environment where it is impossible a "fair trial", is basically wrong and not usable. All this kind of arguments were used, in the case of Amanda, to create an extrajudicial pressure from an extra-jurisdictional power. The CSM detected this and issued an advice report to Judge Micheli's office. As a consequence of this order by his bosses, Micheli considered this information about the existence o supporter group, as a possible security issue for the surveillance of the suspects.


They couldn't have done more damage if they'd tried. Literally.

The CSM (Supreme Council of the Magistracy) is the body in charge of the whole Italian Judicial System.

They run the Italian legal system. They run the court system.

They are ferociously independent of the Italian Government. Their reason to be is to maintain the independence of the judicial system and run it for the benefit of Italian citizens free of political interference. (Unlike in the US, the most senior judges in most of Europe are not political appointees, they rise through the judicial system and it is their colleagues who put them into their positions of power). Judges vote people onto the Italian CSM.

The CSM detected this and issued an advice report to Judge Micheli's office. As a consequence of this order by his bosses, Micheli......

They can't even go to Burlesconi to get above the CSM.

The CSM fight him all the time over political corruption. Burlesconi had to pass a special law in the Italian parliament to keep them off his own back when he was elected.

Heavey's hit the steel ceiling and hurt his head.
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:06 pm   Post subject:    

Brian S. wrote:
Michael wrote:
Yummi's post at the cooks blog:

....Other propaganda actios were also wrong (as usable arguments) - like the video in the downstairs apartament calling for a suspect od "mishandling" the evidence - such arguments also cannot be done outside the court and they are exclusive competence of the defense attorneys. Saying that witnesses are on "payroll" is also defamating. And, the general idea of a "poisoned" environment where it is impossible a "fair trial", is basically wrong and not usable. All this kind of arguments were used, in the case of Amanda, to create an extrajudicial pressure from an extra-jurisdictional power. The CSM detected this and issued an advice report to Judge Micheli's office. As a consequence of this order by his bosses, Micheli considered this information about the existence o supporter group, as a possible security issue for the surveillance of the suspects.


They couldn't have done more damage if they'd tried. Literally.

The CSM (Supreme Council of the Magistracy) is the body in charge of the whole Italian Judicial System.

They run the Italian legal system. They run the court system.

They are ferociously independent of the Italian Government. Their reason to be is to maintain the independence of the judicial system and run it for the benefit of Italian citizens free of political interference. (Unlike in the US, the most senior judges in most of Europe are not political appointees, they rise through the judicial system and it is their colleagues who put them into their positions of power). Judges vote people onto the Italian CSM.

The CSM detected this and issued an advice report to Judge Micheli's office. As a consequence of this order by his bosses, Micheli......

They can't even go to Burlesconi to get above the CSM.

The CSM fight him all the time over political corruption. Burlesconi had to pass a special law in the Italian parliament to keep them off his own back when he was elected.

Heavey's hit the steel ceiling and hurt his head.


Brian,
Very good analysis. Short, coincise and clear. I couldn't have said it better :)
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 9:30 pm   Post subject: Tapes?   

Oceania8 wrote:
Posted by oceania8 at 12/3/08 4:31 a.m. #224056

Anyone who has eyes that open and has viewed the tapes knows that crime scene was horribly mismanaged. Are we all supposed to pretend what we saw didn't happen because it might interefere with the attorney's strategy and it "doesn't support the idea of innocence" ? If the evidence is proven to be contaminated it most certainly supports the idea of innocence...


THE COOK'S SMOG

Oh, really Oceania...are you claiming then to have been given a personal viewing of these tapes? Or, are you merely parroting heresay given by others who claim to have seen them? Are you one of the 'Friends of Amanda' then? For an organisation that has such a 'large and growing' membership, it is strange that so few seem willing to come forward and actually admit to being a member. Why are they all so coy?

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 11:12 pm   Post subject: The Mystery of the Electric Tooth Brush...   

From Franks:

Last Q & A. Apparently he just remember he hadn't put that one in his blog before. An explanation of the electric tooth brush.

Q: As for your beauty case I've just found listed 'purse + contents'. No vibrators or condoms are listed nor I could see them in the pictures. What is this story of the vibrator?

A: Oh my god! (she laughs) That vibrator is a gag gift, like for a women's party just before she gets married. It's big like this (she makes the sign of a AAA battery). You can hold keys to it...
PUBBLICATO DA FRANK A 11:54 PM
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Offline Kermit


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:56 am   Post subject: Mirror Mirror on the Wall   

Jumpy wrote:
I saw that too. She (Anne Bremner) doesn't look anything like the picture at Frank's place!


Reminds me of Celine Dionne without her makeup on. Except that Bremner actually is wearing a lot of it.
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:51 am   Post subject:    

Brian S. wrote:
Some interesting early stories:

Meredith knew her killer. Police examining car park CCTV. They've already interviewed Meredith's 3 friends she was with on the night. They know she left them at 9:00pm. They've inteviewed the boys from downstairs. investigators are waiting to receive printouts on phone calls made and received from mobile phones of the victim (apparatus from which the ventiduenne not be separated ever). Particularly complex investigations also the need for consideration of possible contacts, including international.

The police are also searching for the weapon used to kill the girl - perhaps a knife or a screwdriver - and the key to the door of the room where the young woman was found dead. The chamber has been found locked, and the possibility remains that the murder privileged to have killed and then both fled from the window. Traces of blood were found on a window and a handkerchief near a railing that defines the way over, as well as in the victim's room...


Google tranlation of La Repubblica - 3rd November 2007



Girl slain, perhaps first raped
might have had a sexual relationship, the night he was consumed murder, the English student of 22 years, Meredith Kercher, killed in his bedroom in a cottage in St. Anthony Avenue near the old town Perugia. On the body of the young were detected signs that could indicate un'avvenuta colluttazione. This is apparent from the first inspection conducted on the body of the student.. But I will be only the autopsy examination, scheduled for Sunday morning at 8.30...

By day they arrived parents of the girl.The father does not know capacitive touch of the terrible end to his daughter: "We are devastated. I am so totally in shock that I can not even cry or get angry. Meredith was so beautiful, so smart. The wanted so much good. Are of stone, you vent John Kercher. Freelance journalist, with two other children (Lyle 28 and Stephanie 24), Kercher has started to worry yesterday afternoon when he heard that a British girl was savagely killed in the Umbrian town: "I called Meredith - told - to make sure that was not her but her phone was switched off.I must have tried fifteen or twenty times. " Then, after contacts with the tabloid Daily Mirror and the Foreign Office, the cold shower: "When I heard the name I was clinging to the hope that it was another Meredith or that there was a mistake. But they told me that had been identified by one of his companions at home. Now touch me as a father, to identify it officially and it is a thought that I was unbearable. " Brunette, brown eyes, educated at a private school from 15,000 a year, Meredith was residing with his father divorced in Coulsdon, a neighborhood south of London...



Google translation of Corriere Della Sera - 3rd November 2007



The autopsy: Meredith was raped
"They could have been in two"

Meredith Kercher was first raped and then killed with a blow to the throat. These first necropsy findings conducted on the body of British student in Italy for a time frame, murdered on the night between Thursday and Friday. And investigators do not exclude that they can be in two to attack the girl and her violence.

The autopsy has therefore already given the first confirmation the assumptions investigation. The analysis is now focused on fingerprints and the organic material found at the crime, along with traces of the two mobile computing. According to investigators, then, the girl knew the murderess.....

The autopsy. Meredith has struggled with the murderess - or killers - that would have forced a sexual relationship.This one of the examinations. Seven hours, after which the medical legal Luca Lalli said that there were "interesting elements" which was useful on a "confrontation" with the judge and investigators. So, soon after, Lalli, Giuliano Mignini pm on coordinating investigations and investigators are back in the cottage of the crime. A tour that did think of a breakthrough, because with them was a young woman, it seems one of the friends of the victim....


Google translation of La Repubblica - 4th November 2007

The young woman was Amanda. This was probably around the time that Raffaele gave his interview to Kate Mansey. He said to her that Amanda was still helping the police with their inquiries.


Confirmation it was Amanda and more detail:

......Sundays were heard many people who could provide information useful in resolving the case. This would include those who live in other apartments of the house via letters. According to reports by Agi, it appears that four university students Marches have been heard for hours, although official sources maintain a strict privacy, and also the American student who shared the house occupied by Meredit Kercher returned in the evening with the investigators in the house of murder after the legal doctor had delivered an initial report to the magistrate. They are also in place controls on the ownership of the house and who had the keys to the availability of small apartments.

Google translation of TGCom -5th November 2007



So Raffaele was off around town and talking to Kate Mansey while Amanda must have spent nearly all day 4th November with the police. The police also interview everyone else from the cottage and then spend hours with Meredith's friends. Elsewhere on this day La Stampa even describes Sophie Purton as a "super witness". The bit about the keys doesn't translate very well, but basically the police are really interested to know who has got the keys for the other apartments in the cottage. I assume they go to the cottage with Amanda that evening to see if they can find them before returning the following day, again with Amanda, to carry out a proper search.

ISTM that by the 4th November the investigators were really homing in on AK.




Quote:
He fought hard, perhaps Murderess has an accomplice
Forced sex before dying
That night with Meredith were two.


The signs say that they left on the body and that the legal doctor noted. Obviously we expect the results of laboratory tests, in any case, the end of student killed in Perugia London at dawn on Friday was terrible: the knife that entered the neck was used even before the murder. Perhaps to threaten, not to force a rebel.

The affected skin with torture, as every moment of this story, appear without mercy. Why Meredith, who would have attained 22 years in December, that night will not be spared nothing. The girl had a sexual relationship before he died, but whoever kills the viewer does not even make the grab from behind and cuts the trachea. The walls of the room testify: there is blood up to half a meter from the ceiling.....

The boys who live there seem to have an alibi - a home for the bridge festival - but the reasoning of those who investigates is another, even quell'appartamento is continuously rented to students, and the lock has never changed, then there many enter and leave, friends, acquaintances, Italians and foreigners.

For that boys under the plan are continually questioned. It is what many young captain, in Perugia: the police and the magistrate has heard some North African, one in particular, who attended St. Anthony Avenue, the street where he lived Meredith. And are continuing even questioned his party: brought yesterday evening, along with another friend, Sophie, again in the house.


bolint's translation of this final paragraph:

"A house-search of more than on hour at one of the girls, she comes out, a towel put on her face. Does she know something? A lot, it seems. What can she be a witness of, it is difficult to say. What certain is that the investigations have a precise direction: the friends of Meredith, not a drifter who dropped in by chance. There is (a?) little random (element) in this horrible story: the girls who lived with the English girl were all out, the boys who lived below departed. Who kills Meredith probably knows that. Probably does not know of the cameras not far away. In any case, before leaving why does (he/she) goes to the house below? There are marijuana plants at the place, but (he/she) wants something else, perhaps to change clothes. (He/she) has the keys, knows that there is nobody there and can find men's clothes. Who knows ..."

Google translation - Corriere Della Sera - 5th November 2007

Is this the magic moment when the keys were found in Amanda's room????

Who knows?

I assume it was Amanda who used the towel to shield her face as she left.
I suspect that on the way the police stopped to pick up Raffaele Sollecito and said they wanted to talk to him. By then, they knew from his phone records that he and Amanda weren't at any party on the night of the 1st.

EDIT: Correct protocol would dictate that Amanda was present to give permission for her room to be searched. She was at this stage still a witness. Did a search of Amanda's room turn up Meredith's keys along with the boys?

Was the finding of the keys a turning moment?





First with the news:

Monday, 5 November 2007
studio aperto 18:30 • notizia n.9

Murder of Meredith in Perugia

Investigators have identified the culprit, but have yet to dismantle his alibi.


Studio Aperto


ISTM after putting this story together the investigators were on to AK and RS right from the get-go. Raffaele said himself he was with police all day on the 3rd. And Amanda was with him in the pics. They may have let Raffaele wander around on the afternoon of the 4th and during the day of the 5th. But Amanda must have been with the investigators right through from the start.
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Offline indie


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 3:46 am   Post subject:    

One has to wonder why they locked the door. It wasn't necessary and in fact sort of messes up their post staging scenario. Most burglars or for that matter sexual assaulters don't take the time to lock a door. They must of been afraid someone might come home a bit early or unexpectedly. They could have just closed it.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:28 am   Post subject: Two and two   

Brian wrote:

Quote:
ISTM after putting this story together the investigators were on to AK and RS right from the get-go. Raffaele said himself he was with police all day on the 3rd. And Amanda was with him in the pics. They may have let Raffaele wander around on the afternoon of the 4th and during the day of the 5th. But Amanda must have been with the investigators right through from the start.


Indie wrote:

Quote:
One has to wonder why they locked the door. It wasn't necessary and in fact sort of messes up their post staging scenario. Most burglars or for that matter sexual assaulters don't take the time to lock a door. They must of been afraid someone might come home a bit early or unexpectedly. They could have just closed it.


Taking these two posts, I think the investigators put two and two together. You're right, Indie: who takes the time to lock the door on a dead or dying body? Whoever did it wanted to buy time. Buy time for what? And remember, Brian, in one of her interviews Edda Mellas says her relatives in Germany told her it was not normal for the police to be spending so much time with AK. I think that's why she got on an airplane and headed to Italy. Something was up.
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:28 am   Post subject:    

I've noticed that Candace Dempsey has been predictably deleting the posts of frog-y-rana on her blog. Here is an excellent riposte to Candace from frog-y-rana:

Posted by Frog-y-rana at 12/4/08 2:37 a.m.

Candace said: "Frog-y, I have removed your bad-tempered posts of today ... I do not want my blog to be the place where people come to make nasty hit and run comments about me, Funnycat and posters.

Candace, as I have done on other occasions, I was going to modify my deleted posts to take out the parts which you may have objected to, then repost them.

Perhaps in some of my deleted posts of yesterday you may have felt that my irony went too far in some lateral references to you or Funnycat. If that was the case, I apologise.

However, a fast look at my deleted posts revealed that some which were deleted had no reference to you or Funnycat or any other posters.

For example, my list of alternative prison interview questions to Amanda.

How appropriate that one of my deleted posts was a reply to Someonewhoknows (in response to him describing how you don't delete: "Funny thing is, you (Frog-y) are posting. So obviously Candace doesn't go that heavy on the delete button, now does she?"). I referred to having to "feel" your deletion policy, to imagine what may offend you and avoid those issues. I guess my imagination yesterday wasn't sufficiently agile.

On the other hand, here's a fast sample of some non-deleted comments made in the last day by well-known posters, who it seems don't have to be thinking constantly about the ironic tone of their words:

Oceania8: " (Frog-y-rana) and his cronies are entitled to their opinions just as much as the next person masquerading as a small slimey creature in Blogsville."

Funnycat: "Cherchez, you appear to know as much about medicine as you do about being 20-something. Fess up."

Tufa: "(Frog-y-rana,) fess up or face humilation ... Who pays you?"

I would have liked to see the same strict yardstick applied to all here. It seems that some can joke (or accuse), others can't.

Whether these expressions of sentiment towards me or any other person who considers making a heterogeneous contribution to this board is humour or deep felt exophobia doesn't matter.

In my case I have taken all such comments in stride and laughed. Now, if I make a wry comment towards one or another poster here (including those who have dealt out similar comments, like those quoted above), I would have thought that the same common sense would apply.

At the very least, that wry humour shouldn't be used as an excuse to erase any inconvenient post of mine. It's your board, Candace, you don't have to make excuses to direct the discussion in the direction you want, via deletion.
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Offline daisysteiner


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:41 am   Post subject:    

Hi TM Thanks for the wicked post and explanation, you are right and all the evidence we know of does point to the fact they are as guilty as hell and will be found so, I just try not to count chickens as we don't have absolutely everything in front of us. I do trust the judges and if the case was as weak as Amanda's family says, she'd be on house arrest. I do think that any testimony that shows Knox & Sollecito to be lying will be the strongest evidence. This includes the evidence of Sophie, Natalie, Robyn etc as they are the ones who will show the fundamental argument made by Knox (that they were friends) is complete and utter rubbish. Meredith herself will testify through her friends on this one via the reading of her emails and messages and I'd like to see the defense argue with her! Once the prosecution have shown the defendants both to be the absolute world class (pardon language!) bullshitters that they are, why would the judge believe them when they say they are innocent? From there it is a simple case of adding the forensics to the circumstantial and it all adding up. I fail to see how the defense or any testimony in court from Knox or Sollecito can succsessfully challenge the fact that neither can be trusted or believed. I have confidence that CCTV will be the undoing along with the Meredith emails. As correctly pointed out, if the camera's were working at 9pm on 1st, they will have been working at 10am on 2nd. More evidence of Amanda's inability to deal in truth and honesty.

My reason for not being 100% convinced of conviction? OJ Simpson. Sounds ridiculous (different countries and legal systems, I know) but they couldn't have got more evidence against him if they had had a video of him killing Nicole and a signed confession yet look at what happened. I do not underestimate Amanda's family and exactly how far and how much money they will spend to keep Amanda out of prison for a long time.
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Offline daisysteiner


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:48 am   Post subject:    

Have any of the Pro-Knox side faced the fact she is going to prison for the false accusation against Patrick, short of her lawyer finding a Rodney King style video of police brutality? That offence has a minimum sentence of six years and a maximum of twenty does it not?
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 3:41 pm   Post subject:    

Damiano posted a part of Amanada's Dec 17 interrogation based on a recent Porta a Porta episode.

The new witnesses also were discussed in Porta a Porta two days ago:

http://www.raiclicktv.it/raiclickpc/sec ... aiClickWeb^Home^Notizie^Culture#2

Starting at 34:20 you can see and hear Antonio Curatolo in an evening interview in his office (Piazza Grimana bench).
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 4:41 pm   Post subject: George Bush and AK   

Daisy Steiner wrote:

Quote:
My reason for not being 100% convinced of conviction? OJ Simpson. Sounds ridiculous (different countries and legal systems, I know) but they couldn't have got more evidence against him if they had had a video of him killing Nicole and a signed confession yet look at what happened. I do not underestimate Amanda's family and exactly how far and how much money they will spend to keep Amanda out of prison for a long time.

I think it would be a huge mistake to be 100% convinced of anything. For one thing, in spite of the way it has been misrepresented by Knox supporters, the Italian system is more stringent when it comes to conviction. In other words, it is harder for the prosecution to get a conviction than in the US or the UK. A lot is riding on how well the two prosecutors present this complex case with its complex layers of evidence.

In addition, as you point out, Amanda's family has been and will continue to be active and aggressive in its efforts to get her acquitted at all costs. There is a fine line between unwavering support for the accused and interference with a legitimate process, and I doubt they can even see that line. In any case, they act as if it isn't there. Curt Knox has said that he will do whatever it takes to get his daughter back to Seattle. The PR firm was hired almost immediately, and has been extremely active.

The reaction to valid criticism of Heavey and Bremner's separate blunders -- basically to put a Karl Rove-like positive spin on them and repeat endlessly until the ring of truth is obtained -- is part of a pattern. Don't under-estimate its power.

Maybe no one remembers this, but way back in 2000, when George Bush Jr was running for president the first time, stories surfaced about drunk-driving arrests and cocaine use. I happened to be in Austin, Texas at the time visiting family and the city was abuzz with these stories. Karl Rove succeeded in spinning that to George's advantage with the story about George's fall into the slew of despond and rise out of it thanks to a religious conversion. The story even describes a walk in the garden at Kennebunkport (where the Bush family has a vast summer estate) with Billy Graham, a famous evangelical preacher, and a threat from Laura that she would leave George unless he stopped drinking. The power of prayer and Laura's strong will combined miraculously and George never touched the demon liquor again. No detox, no AA, an overnight thing. A miracle.

I only mention this because I think it is one of the myths that helped to sway voters in his favor, and it is a textbook example of taking a negative and spinning it positive. I thought of it this morning reading Frank's last "question" to Amanda about the vibrator. It was a gag gift and just a tiny thing. The lack of prints on the floor? The bathmat shuffle. The blood on the sink? First it was from pierced ears, then it was from a cut, in any case, it can be explained. It can all be explained. It can all be spun.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 4:44 pm   Post subject: Jean-Paul Gaultier shirt   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
It's called a sound bite. I think if you asked Anne herself, she too would be hard-pressed to offer any cogent explanation. But it sounds good. There's the alliteration, and Fellini is Italian, and well, Fellini liked freaks and well, Fellini is so, so Italian.... it's just BS, really. Total BS.

nicki wrote:
I agree with you, it's total BS.


Skep and nicki,
thanks you for explaining "Fellini forensics'. I thought as much - that it was BS cooked up by Anne Bremner - but wanted to make sure that I didn't miss any hidden message or an unknown reference to Fellini’s Œuvre.

What do you make of a 'multi-colored, synthetic shirt' that Raffaele Sollecito brought to the cleaners shortly after the murder? Now there appears to be both a shirt and a shirt box in which the knife was found or transported to the police station. It would be reasonable to assume that the shirt was housed in that box. Would anyone use a Jean-Paul Gaultier shirt for wrapping a murder weapon? It’s hard to imagine. Or was Raffaele Sollecito wearing a designer shirt at the time of the murder? Btw, it seems the young ‘man of few words’ had a good taste in high quality clothes, all purchased with papa’s money. It’s been a ‘wonderful life’ sponsored by Dr. Sollecito and RS blew it!


Last edited by guermantes on Thu Dec 04, 2008 8:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 5:05 pm   Post subject:    

Bolint wrote:

Quote:
Damiano posted a part of Amanda's Dec 17 interrogation based on a recent Porta a Porta episode.


Thanks for the information, Bolint, and thanks to Damian for providing the translation.

I'm a little confused by one part of it:

Interpreter: When she went into the bedroom to have a shower she forgot the towel. And so there was also, what do you call it in Italian?

Mignini: The bathmat.

Interpreter: …the bathmat that she used to go back…walk to the bedroom to get a towel.

Mignini: Sorry I don’t understand. You took the bathmat to walk, to go to the bedroom?

Interpreter: So she didn’t slip with bare feet.

Mignini: When did you notice the blood?

Knox: I saw the blood when I went into the bedroom.

Interpreter: In the washbasin when she took her earrings out. After the shower she realised she didn’t have a towel and she used the bathmat.

Mignini So you saw the blood before you had a shower?

Intepreter: Yes, in the wash basin yes.

Mignini: You found the door open, blood in the bathroom and despite all this you had a shower?

Knox: In my entire life…

Interpreter: She didn’t expect to find…She’s never gone through something terrible…

Mignini: But there was blood and the door was open.

When Knox is asked when she noticed the blood, according to this translation she replies that she saw the blood when she went into the bedroom. The interpreter says she saw it in the washbasin when she took her earrings out. So it wasn't when she went into the bedroom. Is this AK claiming something and then having to correct it because it doesn't make sense? What emerges from this is what has perplexed many from the start: as Mignini notes, there was blood and the door was open, and yet AK took a shower, shuffled across the floor nonchalantly, on a bathmat and buck naked, to get a towel in her bedroom, and at no time felt anything was amiss. In other words, it was not until she got back to Raffaele's place with the mop and had a leisurely breakfast that she thought it might be a good idea to mention the open door and the blood. In his prison diary, Raffaele even says it was not until they were walking down the street that she mentioned the blood and the open door. But this raises issues about where they were going with the mop... And I wonder if the mop was carried by AK the next morning back to Raffaele's, or whether it had been there since the night before and was being taken back to the cottage the next morning.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 5:50 pm   Post subject: Raffaele prepares for life in a monestary   

For what it's worth, here's my translation of the lead-in to an article in the Corriere dell'Umbria:

This information should be taken as conditional, but Raffaele Sollecito and his defense attorneys are said to have found witnesses who are able to demonstrate that the late breaking witness who says he saw Sollecito, Amanda Knox, Rudy Guede and even the victim, Meredith Kercher, together on the afternoon of October 30, 2007 is at the very least mistaken. According to this source, Sollecito was elsewhere and not between Pergola and Grimana as the witness claims. The suspect (ndlt: Sollecito), who is being held in the Sabbione prison in Terni, has had all of the documents in the case file delivered to him and has begun to read and study them in order to contribute to his defense team. The next court appearance, scheduled for January 16, will be a battle on every front. In prison, Raffaele has had a makeover: the source who saw him explains that he has shaved his head (from the temples to the nape of the neck) and that, as a result, he looks even younger than his 24 years.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:40 pm   Post subject: What's missing matters too - cherchez la femme   

Frog-y-rana wrote (on the PI READER BLOG)

Quote:
At the very least, that wry humour shouldn't be used as an excuse to erase any inconvenient post of mine. It's your board, Candace, you don't have to make excuses to direct the discussion in the direction you want, via deletion.


Charlie Wilkes and O8 should consider themselves lucky. When they posted on haloscan and then the TC board, no matter how inconvenient their posts were, they were allowed to stand. Certain people wanted them banned for having these inconvenient views and posting them repeatedly, like a broken record. They were not banned. One left of her own volition and the other was suspended and never came back. Both could post here today if they wanted to.

Now O8 is happily flogging Frog-y and the board that spawned his alter ego, or at least trying to. Most of her attempts at biting wit and withering put-down fail, for reasons that dwell deep in her psyche (Hi O8, how ya' doin'?), but she persists with total impunity. It must feel so good after what the poor thing endured here.

I will say again that Frog-y's impact over there can be measured by Candace's impatience and barely concealed anger. The insults from "Tufa" and others, which are tolerated because they emulate those of the hostess, are also pretty low and uninteresting. I think it is positive that they remain part of the record.

As for cherchezlafemme, having just read his/her last two posts, I am almost sorry that I am not him/her. I can almost see why he/she was suspected of being me, however. Although our writing styles are so different that only an inattentive reader would be fooled into thinking we are the same person, he/she seems pretty hard to fluster and pretty non-defensive.

Poor Funnycat is making herself look worse and worse: not only are her science credentials shrouded in mystery, but she seems to be insanely jealous of anyone with more than passing knowledge of the subject. Or does she just feel threatened? You know, insecurity can do that to a person.

Again, I truly believe that people are not stupid and that the more sources of information and even misinformation available the better. Candace may be providing a service in spite of herself by allowing Frog-y to continue posting, but it is nonetheless a service. Her blog consistently comes up on google searches, so it is important that an intelligent presentation of her opposition (the case against Amanda and Raffaele) be accessible to readers who are not necessarily aware of the full story and Candace's role in trying to shape it. Even the deletions are an important part of the record.

The late French philosopher of the present Michel Foucault noted an interesting fact in one of his many books (I think it was Madness and Civilization): When the Mona Lisa was stolen from the Louvre in 1911, thousands of people lined up to gaze at the empty space left by its absence.

Similarly, the erasure of Meredith, the blank space left by this erasure, the attempt to place another in the space marked victim, and the attempt to sketch Meredith back into that space are all important parts of the unfolding story.


Last edited by Skeptical Bystander on Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Corrina


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:46 pm   Post subject:    

Skep said:

Similarly, the erasure of Meredith, the blank space left by this erasure, the attempt to place another in the space marked victim and the attempt to sketch Meredith back into that space are all important parts of the unfolding story.~~~~~~

Well put, Skep.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 7:38 pm   Post subject: Death Eaters   

For what it's worth, I’m now posting new information on Harry Potter as a possible source of inspiration to AK et al. As we know, she has been an avid Harry Potter reader since her high school days, and even Chris Mellas has admitted to reading HP in one of his posts on Candace’s blog.

Chris Mellas said:
Quote:
‘A harry potter reader and we all know they are the most diabolical of all. What he [Mignini] doesn’t know, I am a step worth even… I watched the movies rather than just read.’

As the old saying goes, ‘Deep versed in books and shallow in himself’ ;) [John Milton, Paradise regained, Book IV, line 327].

After going through the plots of all seven Harry Potter books I can state that some episodes in the series are truly frightening, even to an adult. How kids don’t get scared nowadays by it, is a mystery to me. For example, there seems to be a lot of torture going on in the pages of that book. Consider the Death Eaters; nearly all of them are known for torturing at least one character in the book:

Death Eaters

Could they have ‘inspired’ the three young adults sitting in jail? Were they ‘playing’ the ‘Death Eaters’ the night of Nov.1, 2007? Any relation to the ‘torture’ Meredith may have endured in the final hour of her life?

The Death Eaters were a group of Dark wizards and witches that followed Lord Voldemort. They often wore black hoods with snake-like eye slits to cover their faces.



"They were a motley collection; a mixture of the weak seeking protection, the ambitious seeking some shared glory, and the thuggish gravitating towards a leader who could show them more refined forms of cruelty."
—Albus Dumbledore on the Death Eaters

"Pain. You don't need thumbscrews or knives to torture someone if you can perform the Cruciatus Curse.... That one was very popular once too."
—Barty Crouch, Jr. as Alastor Moody

The Cruciatus Curse is one of the three Unforgivable Curses of the wizarding world. It is a curse of torture, inflicting excruciating pain on a victim. This makes it popular among the Death Eaters for use on both fellow wizards and Muggles. Cursing another human being with Cruciatus carries a punishment of a life sentence in Azkaban [the wizard prison].

The pain caused by the Cruciatus Curse is said to be worse than "one thousand white-hot knives, boring into the skin."

Could be a pure coincidence, of course. Make of it what you will.

And look what else I’ve found! Scroll down to the end of the long list of Death Eaters and their crimes - what do you see there? Wilkes! ‘Killed by Aurors during the first Wizarding war'. Or was it the first Blogs war? Sorry about the poor joke, just couldn’t resist :) .


Last edited by guermantes on Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:05 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 7:59 pm   Post subject:    

Thanks, Guermantes. This is fascinating and worth giving more thought to. The names alone are interesting:
Voldemort = Death theft
Malfoy = Bad/Evil faith (foi = faith in French, although the expression for being of bad faith is "être de mauvaise foi," and as an abstract noun le Mal = Evil).

As for Wilkes, he may have been killed in the world of Harry Potter, but in the blogosphere he seems to be invincible. He has been posting forever, on all manner of subjects, including self-trepination, which is the process of drilling into one's own skull to relieve pressure by removing some blood. Some believe this can cure mental illness, or something like that. And no, I am not making this up.

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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:26 pm   Post subject:    

Thank you Bolint for the link to the Porta Porta TV programme.

The reconstruction of the crime is a a bit disturbing, I know a reconstruction is just that... and that they used actors, but still sends shivers up your spine.

Skep the bit about Mignini interrogation that you mentioned

"Knox: I saw the blood when I went into the bedroom"

On the Porta Porta video I understood bathroom not bedroom.

Sorry can't go over it again :lol: the damm programme last 2 hours, but you can just about hear AK speak in English and I'm sure she says bathroom.
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:46 pm   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Thanks, Guermantes. This is fascinating and worth giving more thought to. The names alone are interesting:
Voldemort = Death theft
Malfoy = Bad/Evil faith (foi = faith in French, although the expression for being of bad faith is "être de mauvaise foi," and as an abstract noun le Mal = Evil).

As for Wilkes, he may have been killed in the world of Harry Potter, but in the blogosphere he seems to be invincible. He has been posting forever, on all manner of subjects, including self-trepination, which is the process of drilling into one's own skull to relieve pressure by removing some blood. Some believe this can cure mental illness, or something like that. And no, I am not making this up.


Skep :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I said it a long time ago that I thought he was very weird. Seems he posts on hundreds of forums on any strange subject thats going. Do you think he's tried the self-trepanation on himself?

The Mellas lot a like a magnet atracting all the weirdos out there :lol:
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:49 pm   Post subject: Porta a Porta   

I have also watched the Porta a Porta talk show. A few interesting insights:

-The shop keeper: the police questionned him right after the murder, and asked him if he knew Sollecito. He said he did, since Sollecito was a regular customer of his store, he went in two-three times a day. The shop keeper also remembers Amanda as she had entered the shop with Sollecito several times before. So, even if she had been with Sollecito for a short time, a couple of days would have been enough for the shopkeeper to spot her several times because we know that she had practically moved in with Raffaele right after they met. Even Knox's camp confirms this. The shop keeper also knew Rudy, he recalls Rudy and Sollecito entering the shop at about the same time, but without giving the impression of being together since they didn't exchange words, but minded their own business separately while inside. However, this reminds me of the many posts I've read over here, on TC and Haloscan addressing the likelihood that the two knew each other. The reasoning was that since they lived so close, with all probability they were even shopping in the same neighborhood shop, therefore it is highly probable that they at least knew about each other existence. When the Police seized the till, the shop owner wasn't asked about Amanda, so he says he had no idea that his testimony was so important, not having followed the case and ignoring that part of her alibi was that she had been sleeping until 10 am at Sollecito's. He decided to speak to the police because the journalists pointed out to him how important this was.. He says he is absolutely certain that Knox was inside his store as soon as it opened at 745 am.

-Patrick Lumumba: again, he says that Knox is an actress. He points out how everytime she was asked by police the reasons for the false accusations she broke down, whereas when she was taliking to her mother about it, she was speaking in a calm and controlled manner.

-Toto: in his order, Judge Micheli warns anybody against " doubting Toto's credibility on the grounds that he is a homeless". The Judge considers Toto 's testimony crucial and highly reliable. It has been showed that the cottage entrance is visible from the rail in the Piazza Grimana where the two kept going back and forth from where they were seating. They also said that Toto's has already been a credible witness in two previous crime cases. Why? Because he lives on the streets and he is able to see many things.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:09 pm   Post subject: Bathroom not bedroom   

Jools wrote:

Quote:
Skep the bit about Mignini interrogation that you mentioned
"Knox: I saw the blood when I went into the bedroom"
On the Porta Porta video I understood bathroom not bedroom.


I thought it might be some sort of mix-up like that. Bathroom makes sense. Thanks for listening to that.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:46 pm   Post subject: Toto too   

Nicki wrote:

Quote:
Toto: in his order, Judge Micheli warns anybody against " doubting Toto's credibility on the grounds that he is a homeless". The Judge considers Toto 's testimony crucial and highly reliable. It has been showed that the cottage entrance is visible from the rail in the Piazza Grimana where the two kept going back and forth from where they were seating. They also said that Toto's has already been a credible witness in two previous crime cases. Why? Because he lives on the streets and he is able to see many things.


This will come as a great blow to Candace and Frank, who have used his homelessness as a prima facie reason for doubting his testimony. Maybe Mr. Curatolo will sue them for character assassination -- Candace loves to refer to him as "Park Bench." Maybe we should start referring to her as Stewpot or Blender or Garlic Press.
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:58 pm   Post subject:    

It seems that the shopkeeper is a credible witness. I wonder if the receipt for cleaning products found at Raffaele Sollecito's flat is from 2 November.

It's ironic that Amanda Knox's supporters are so quick to dismiss the witnesses for the prosection as not being credible when you consider the credibilty of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito who have given multiple alibis and lied repeatedly. I'm not sure which story is more ridiculous: Amanda and Raffaele forgetting most of what happened on the night of the murder because they had smoked cannabis or Amanda's bathmat shuffle to her room on the day that Meredith's body was discovered.

On second thoughts, Amanda's amnesia magically disappearing after she had been visited by a nun is probably the most far-fetched story she's told. Maybe, the nun should visit Raffaele, so he can remember whether Amanda was with him or not on the night of the murder.

Raffaele first alibi about being at imaginary party with Amanda on the evening of 1 November doesn't have the fairy tale qualities of Amanda's yarn about the nun, but it shows that he's just as creative as Amanda when it comes to making up ridiculous stories. His story about accidentally pricking Meredith with a knife whilst cooking even though Meredith had never been to his apartment shows that he can conjure a piece of fiction at the drop of a hat.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:25 pm   Post subject: Frog-y Delete Watch   


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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:17 am   Post subject:    

nicki wrote:
I have also watched the Porta a Porta talk show. A few interesting insights:

-The shop keeper: the police questionned him right after the murder, and asked him if he knew Sollecito. He said he did, since Sollecito was a regular customer of his store, he went in two-three times a day. The shop keeper also remembers Amanda as she had entered the shop with Sollecito several times before. So, even if she had been with Sollecito for a short time, a couple of days would have been enough for the shopkeeper to spot her several times because we know that she had practically moved in with Raffaele right after they met. Even Knox's camp confirms this. The shop keeper also knew Rudy, he recalls Rudy and Sollecito entering the shop at about the same time, but without giving the impression of being together since they didn't exchange words, but minded their own business separately while inside. However, this reminds me of the many posts I've read over here, on TC and Haloscan addressing the likelihood that the two knew each other. The reasoning was that since they lived so close, with all probability they were even shopping in the same neighborhood shop, therefore it is highly probable that they at least knew about each other existence. When the Police seized the till, the shop owner wasn't asked about Amanda, so he says he had no idea that his testimony was so important, not having followed the case and ignoring that part of her alibi was that she had been sleeping until 10 am at Sollecito's. He decided to speak to the police because the journalists pointed out to him how important this was.. He says he is absolutely certain that Knox was inside his store as soon as it opened at 745 am.

-Patrick Lumumba: again, he says that Knox is an actress. He points out how everytime she was asked by police the reasons for the false accusations she broke down, whereas when she was taliking to her mother about it, she was speaking in a calm and controlled manner.

-Toto: in his order, Judge Micheli warns anybody against " doubting Toto's credibility on the grounds that he is a homeless". The Judge considers Toto 's testimony crucial and highly reliable. It has been showed that the cottage entrance is visible from the rail in the Piazza Grimana where the two kept going back and forth from where they were seating. They also said that Toto's has already been a credible witness in two previous crime cases. Why? Because he lives on the streets and he is able to see many things.


The CU also has a story covering the same ground and discussing the implications of the new witnesses. Especially with regard to the case against Sollecito.

Google translation of the CU story



I think the shopkeepers evidence is likely to hold up. He knew them all. RS came in 2 or 3 times a day. It was obviously his regular local shop. He then came to know Amanda because she started coming in with one of his regular customers.

Rudy was (separately from RS) also a customer of his. He'd even seen them in his shop at the same time but he'd not noticed that they were together or seen them speak to each other.

To be honest, although the police asked him about RS when they seized his till, I do feel they were at fault for not coming back and taking a full statement from him in those early days. Also his assistant who obviously also would know the regulars and may have dealt with Amanda's purchase on the 2nd if the shopkeeper didn't.

Damian has said that the editor of Il Giornale dropped a heavy hint on Porta a Porta that there is ANOTHER as yet unnamed witness. who has given evidence. What makes that witness so special? I just wonder if it might be the assistant who served Amanda with the bleach.If the shopkeeper doesn't know what she bought, the obvious person to ask is the other one who was behind the tills.

The CU makes the point that in his report Micheli said that following the failure of the Kokomani's evidence it became important that evidence could be shown which would prove the link between all 3.

There is evidence from people at Le Chic and the boys flat downstairs, even probably other minor witnesses that Amanda and Rudy were aquainted, were seen together and spoke to each other but not so RS and Rudy. Even the shopkeeper doesn't do that.

That leaves the new witness from the 30th who says he saw the three and Meredith leaving the cottage car park. Raffaele's defense say they can prove HE was elsewhere at the time, although they don't say how. This witness is far more vulnerable to defence cross examination or even the proof of error which Raffaele's team say they possess.

As the CU says the only serious evidence against Raffaele is his DNA on Meredith's bra clasp.
It's never been suggested he appeared in any CCTV video and the footprint in Meredith's room was eventually attributed to Rudy.

Before he went silent, Raffaele's last statement given to the prosecutors was that he remained at his place when Amanda went out at about 9:00pm to meet some friends at Le Chic. He can prove he started a cartoon dowload at around 9:10. In his statement he said Amanda didn't come home until around 1 am the following morning.

The only independent witness who can dispute his story of that night is Toto and reliable as he may prove, his evidence only places Raffaele and Amanda in Piazza Grimana at around 11:30. An hour after the murderers' flight from the cottage. And should he need to, I'm sure it won't be beyond Sollecito's wit to find an explanation for his presence there, if there is no good evidence proving his involvement at the cottage at around 10:30.

He's only got to claim he was trying to distance himself fom Amanda once he came to realise the possible implications of the inconsistencies in what Amanda had said. She had in fact come home just after 11pm. they went for a walk to Piazza Grimana and only looked up towards the cottage to see if anyone was home, then after a while went back to his.

Without a doubt SOMEONE was up early at his place in the morning. The phones were turned on at 6:02 and someone played music on his computer and maybe used it for some other things. The shopkeeper says Amanda was round at the shop waiting at 7:45am. But nobody claims that Raffaele went anywhere until he accompanied Amanda back to the cottage at around mid-day.

When Raffaele and Amanda were given a lift to the police station by Luca he said they were asking each other questions. Raffaele can claim he needed to know what Amanda wanted him to say if he was about to give her the party alibi. Same thing with the notes they passed between each other at the police station. It wasn't his fault that the girls thought Amanda was behaving loud and strange. He didn't ask her to poke her tongue out, laugh and give him kisses. Maybe he even thought her behaviour was a little strange also?


MY QUESTION IS:

Given what we know, WHY ON EARTH WOULD RAFFAELE NOW GIVE AMANDA AN ALIBI?

He stands a far better chance at trial without her. In fact I'd like to suggest that unless something dramatic turns up, he may well be found not guilty

Five peoples DNA is on Meredith's bra clasp. Two of them are unknown. It was left at the cottage for over a month.


Last edited by Brian S. on Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:41 am   Post subject:    

The Machine wrote:
....His story about accidentally pricking Meredith with a knife whilst cooking even though Meredith had never been to his apartment shows that he can conjure a piece of fiction at the drop of a hat.


TM

I'm not suggesting RS is actually innocent but in connection with my post above and the connection between RS and the knife.

I believe it later came out that Raffaele had cooked at the girls cottage.

Plus:


Draft transcript of interview

COURTESY OF ABC NEWS' "20/20"



Judy Bachrach has been involved with interviews of the Knox's on more than one occasion


and came out with this in a six page story in June:

That same month, Mignini grilled Amanda again and again about a kitchen knife thought to be the murder weapon. It had been found in Raffaele’s house. On its blade was Meredith’s DNA; near the handle, Amanda’s. A sure sign, the prosecutor thought, that Amanda had handled the weapon that killed the girl. What accounted for those two different DNA sources?, the prosecutor demanded.

“I don’t know! I can’t understand!” Amanda replied, in an interrogation punctuated with violent sobs, during which she eventually exercised her right not to speak.

And, as Amanda informed her parents during a jail visit, she has no idea how that large knife managed to migrate from her own kitchen to her boyfriend’s house....


Vanity Fair
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:35 am   Post subject: Not From Her Ear!!!   

This from Damian's blog. Note that Amanda states that she checked...the blood in the sink, in her own words according to her is NOT from her ear:


[web]http://damiano33.wordpress.com/2008/12/03/more-quotes/[/web]

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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:17 am   Post subject:    

More early news:

This paragraph describes how Amanda responded to the arrival of the police and the following events.

Amanda è una bugiarda. Per quattro giorni, non ha mai smesso di mentire. E forse, lo diranno le prossime ore, continua a farlo. Almeno in parte. La mattina in cui viene scoperto il cadavere di Meredith, si fa "sorprendere" dai vicini e dalla polizia mentre, "sconvolta" rientra in casa per "scoprire" cosa vi è accaduto in sua assenza. Quindi, per quattro giorni, si afferra ad un alibi di cartapesta, secondo cui avrebbe trascorso la notte del delitto fuori da casa, insieme al fidanzato Raffaele.

Translation anyone?

She was "sorprendere" by the arrival of the police:

Principal Translations/Traduzioni principali:
sorprendere v surprise ⇒
sorprendere (stupire) v astonish

Additional Translations/Traduzioni aggiuntive:
sorprendere knock back
sorprendere v thrill (to surprise)
sorprendere v surprise
sorprendere v startle





Also confirmed the phone call to Meredith's mother at 9:30

is in the house (at least so says), where she returned after supper by her friend Sophie, which saw a film on DVD ( "The Notebook" by Nick Cassavetes).

However, she doesn't tell her mother whether or not she is alone in the cottage.



Google translation La Repubblica - 7th November
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Offline DLW


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:32 am   Post subject:    

Here is a updated report by Clint Van Zandt. This is a preliminary to the Dateline program on NBC scheduled for this Friday (Dec 5) at 10:00 pm.

http://clintvanzandt.newsvine.com/_news ... ced-victim
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:03 am   Post subject:    

"only looked up towards the cottage to see if anyone was home"

they can't see the house from there, only a part of the gate.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:34 am   Post subject:    

On the Mistery Woman in white skirt on CCTV.

Perhaps Jovana Popovic can tell if Amanda was wearing a white skirt when Jovana saw her in Raffaele's flat at around 17:50.

That day she was to work at Le Chic and she didn't have clothes at Rafe's place.
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Offline cindy


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:35 am   Post subject:    

:arrow:


Last edited by cindy on Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline indie


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:28 pm   Post subject:    

DLW wrote:
Here is a updated report by Clint Van Zandt. This is a preliminary to the Dateline program on NBC scheduled for this Friday (Dec 5) at 10:00 pm.

http://clintvanzandt.newsvine.com/_news ... ced-victim



This article IMO is more reserved sounding than his previous TV appearance. I will wait till I see Dateline tonight, but Clint seems to be a little ambivalent. He did not give in his previous TV appearances, any inkling of doubt about Amanda's involvement. Now, he seems to be either trying to be more fair and exposing other theories or he has some underlying worries that in all reality there may not be enough evidence.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:48 pm   Post subject: Dateline   

DLW wrote:
Here is a updated report by Clint Van Zandt. This is a preliminary to the Dateline program on NBC scheduled for this Friday (Dec 5) at 10:00 pm.

http://clintvanzandt.newsvine.com/_news ... ced-victim


Thanks for that DLW :)

I don't suppose some kind American among us could get a copy of that online somewhere for us at a later point...or will they actually put it online themselves?

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Last edited by Michael on Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:51 pm   Post subject: White Skirt   

bolint wrote:
On the Mistery Woman in white skirt on CCTV.

Perhaps Jovana Popovic can tell if Amanda was wearing a white skirt when Jovana saw her in Raffaele's flat at around 17:50.

That day she was to work at Le Chic and she didn't have clothes at Rafe's place.


Hi Bolint. Well, did she actually speak to Amanda face to face, or was it through the intercom? The earlier reports I've seen before now say that it was through the intercom. Although, I may have missed something since, as I've been trying to do too many things at once.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:10 pm   Post subject: Vanity Fair   

Brian wrote:

Quote:
Judy Bachrach has been involved with interviews of the Knox's on more than one occasion.


I think she was interviewed for the 20/20 program because she was already in Perugia researching her article for Vanity Fair. That article was "announced" at the very beginning of the year and, for whatever reason, did not appear until June (or was it May?), long after she had completed her research and writing.

She is one of the few journalists -- at least English-speaking ones -- who secured direct access to Mignini and got "for the record" comments. She also managed to speak to Maresca and to his wife (who said that Raffaele was like putty (or calzone dough) in the hands of Amanda), and is the source for the quote from one of Raffaele's lawyers that his client is "an asshole."

Her article ends with Edda Mellas saying that if only Amanda and Raffaele could get together in the same room, they could work out the inconsistencies in their alibis.

This article was heavily criticized by the Knox camp.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:35 pm   Post subject:    

"did she actually speak to Amanda face to face, or was it through the intercom? The earlier reports I've seen before now say that it was through the intercom. Although, I may have missed something since, as I've been trying to do too many things at once."

Jovana Popovic was there twice.
First at about 17:50 (she had an appointment nearby at 18:00 and it was before that). She went up and Amanda was alone, Jovana waited for Raffaele to ask him for a lift to get a luggage from the station. Raffaele soon arrived and in a cold tone he said OK.
Jovana later got a message that for some reason there is no need to get the luggage and after finishing the violin lesson at about 20:20 she went back to tell Raffaele at around 20:40, and through the intercom she spoke to a laughing Amanda who said that Raf is there and invited her up.
She did not go up.

(Source: Candace cited a part of Jovana Popovic's testimony verbatim in Italian
http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/demp ... asp?page=5
Post No 220641
I copied it into this topic earlier)

I think there is no Jovanovic witness, these two visits of Jovana got mixed.

Some recent reports said that Jovana Popovic was Raf's housekeeper, I don't know now if it is still valid.
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:40 pm   Post subject: Re: White Skirt   

Michael wrote:
bolint wrote:
On the Mistery Woman in white skirt on CCTV.

Perhaps Jovana Popovic can tell if Amanda was wearing a white skirt when Jovana saw her in Raffaele's flat at around 17:50.

That day she was to work at Le Chic and she didn't have clothes at Rafe's place.


Hi Bolint. Well, did she actually speak to Amanda face to face, or was it through the intercom? The earlier reports I've seen before now say that it was through the intercom. Although, I may have missed something since, as I've been trying to do too many things at once.



It hasn't been publicised but Curalato MUST be able to describe what he saw Amanda wearing that night. He may not be an expert on the style but I think he'll know whether Amanda was wearing jeans or a skirt.

The investigators questions about Amanda's attire were made before Toto came forward with his evidence.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:47 pm   Post subject: Raffaele has one hell of a memory for detail   

Brian wrote:

Quote:
Michael wrote:
Bolint wrote:
On the Mystery Woman in white skirt on CCTV.

Perhaps Jovana Popovic can tell if Amanda was wearing a white skirt when Jovana saw her in Raffaele's flat at around 17:50.

That day she was to work at Le Chic and she didn't have clothes at Rafe's place.


Hi Bolint. Well, did she actually speak to Amanda face to face, or was it through the intercom? The earlier reports I've seen before now say that it was through the intercom. Although, I may have missed something since, as I've been trying to do too many things at once.

It hasn't been publicised but Curalato MUST be able to describe what he saw Amanda wearing that night. He may not be an expert on the style but I think he'll know whether Amanda was wearing jeans or a skirt.

The investigators questions about Amanda's attire were made before Toto came forward with his evidence.


Indeed, you gotta believe that Raffaele was questioned pretty intensively about what Amanda was wearing. Why else would he state in his prison diary (sold to the press) that, although cannabis has pretty much shot his memory to hell, he remembers that when Amanda returned from the cottage, she had changed her clothes and was wearing her white skirt and black hiking boots? He also notes, elsewhere in the diary, that although Meredith left without a word the day before, he remembers that she was wearing the pair of levis that had belonged to her ex-boyfriend.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:50 pm   Post subject:    

More on the trial from La Nazione.

I think the idea of a separate room for journalsts with sound and video link to the court is gathering pace.

Unless I'm mistaken the Kerchers, via Maresca, are more interested that gruesome details of Meredith are not publicised rather than conducting the trial itself in secret.

The cameras in the courtroom don't have to zoom in on pics of Meredith's body and if defences choose to pull apart Meredith's previous sex life, I'm sure it can be arranged that the microphones are turned off for a time.

It also seems that this compromise has the added benefit of showing "open justice" whilst avoiding madness in a courtroom of restricted size.

Google translation of La Nazione
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:59 pm   Post subject:    

There is a report on a relatively new (Nov 28) Raffaele letter in La Stampa:
http://www.lastampa.it/redazione/cmsSez ... girata.asp

Not much specifics, mostly lamentation and comments on the new witnesses: "They accuse me for money"
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Offline DLW


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:01 pm   Post subject:    

'I don't suppose some kind American among us could get a copy of that (Dateline Program) online somewhere for us at a later point...or will they actually put it online themselves?'…Michael

I have it set up on my Tivo. I’m not computer savvy enough to know how to put it online. After a period of time Dateline offers what is called Quick Cuts on their MSNBC website, which are 5 min or longer recaps or summaries of the 1 hr. program.

Indie. I agree that Clint sounds more reserved and ambivalent about this case than before. But he’s not on the cutting edge of this case either. He maybe in part playing devils advocate. He has some questions on both sides of this issue, as anyone normally would have. I think he wants to build interest, so more people watch the program.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:18 pm   Post subject: Popovic   

bolint wrote:
"did she actually speak to Amanda face to face, or was it through the intercom? The earlier reports I've seen before now say that it was through the intercom. Although, I may have missed something since, as I've been trying to do too many things at once."

Jovana Popovic was there twice.
First at about 17:50 (she had an appointment nearby at 18:00 and it was before that). She went up and Amanda was alone, Jovana waited for Raffaele to ask him for a lift to get a luggage from the station. Raffaele soon arrived and in a cold tone he said OK.
Jovana later got a message that for some reason there is no need to get the luggage and after finishing the violin lesson at about 20:20 she went back to tell Raffaele at around 20:40, and through the intercom she spoke to a laughing Amanda who said that Raf is there and invited her up.
She did not go up.

(Source: Candace cited a part of Jovana Popovic's testimony verbatim in Italian
http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/demp ... asp?page=5
Post No 220641
I copied it into this topic earlier)

I think there is no Jovanovic witness, these two visits of Jovana got mixed.

Some recent reports said that Jovana Popovic was Raf's housekeeper, I don't know now if it is still valid.


Thanks bolint, I'm going to have to update the Timeline in a minute then.

Well, these times mess up both Raffeale's AND Amanda's accounts of that afternoon. According to Raffaele, after leaving Meredith's, he and Amanda walked around town together. Yet, Popovich places them both at Raf's at c. 17:50. Amanda's account, that has them going right back to Raf's and staying there after leaving the cottage, is also proved false by Popovich's second visit at 20:40 to find Raf was not there. Yet, Amanda made no mention of Raf leaving the apartment.

I agree that Popovic and Jovanovic are are most likely one and the same person. I also believe that Popovic 'was' Raffaele's housekeeper/maid.It was also she that was questioned about Raffaele's bleach.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:20 pm   Post subject:    

Bolint wrote:

Quote:
There is a report on a relatively new (Nov 28) Raffaele letter in La Stampa:
http://www.lastampa.it/redazione/cmsSez ... ata.aspNot much specifics, mostly lamentation and comments on the new witnesses: "They accuse me for money"


Thanks, Bolint. If anyone is an expert on how the whole under-the-table cash for services thing works, it would be Raffaele.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:21 pm   Post subject: Re: Dateline   

DLW wrote:
'I don't suppose some kind American among us could get a copy of that (Dateline Program) online somewhere for us at a later point...or will they actually put it online themselves?'…Michael

I have it set up on my Tivo. I’m not computer savvy enough to know how to put it online. After a period of time Dateline offers what is called Quick Cuts on their MSNBC website...


Okay, thanks DLW. I'm not sure what a Tivo is...but maybe someone else will be able to record it and load it up for us :)

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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:24 pm   Post subject:    

"He may not be an expert on the style but I think he'll know whether Amanda was wearing jeans or a skirt"

Lumumba also could say if Amanda was supposed to work in jeans or skirt in Le Chic, or if it was irrelevant.

I think Amanda wore the skirt when they left the cottage before 18:00 as she planned to go to work.
After learnign that there would be no work, she, for some reason, went back to the cottage and came back to Raffaele's place wearing something else.
That was replaced for the skirt at some point in the morning.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:25 pm   Post subject:    

Michael wrote:

Quote:
Well, these times mess up both Raffeale's AND Amanda's accounts of that afternoon. According to Raffaele, after leaving Meredith's, he and Amanda walked around town together. [sub]Yet, Popovich places them both at Raf's at c. 17:50.[/sub] Amanda's account, that has them going right back to Raf's and staying there after leaving the cottage, is also proved false by Popovich's second visit at 20:40 to find Raf was not there. Yet, Amanda made no mention of Raf leaving the apartment.
I agree that Popovic and Jovanovic are are most likely one and the same person. I also believe that Popovic 'was' Raffaele's housekeeper/maid.It was also she that was questioned about Raffaele's bleach.


Maybe I am mis-reading, but I get the opposite impression from this testimony, i.e. that Raffaele was not there when she first stopped by and that he was there at 20:40, at least according to Amanda, who invited her up.

Am I not understanding something?
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:31 pm   Post subject: Re: Popovic   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Michael wrote:

Quote:
Well, these times mess up both Raffeale's AND Amanda's accounts of that afternoon. According to Raffaele, after leaving Meredith's, he and Amanda walked around town together. [sub]Yet, Popovich places them both at Raf's at c. 17:50.[/sub] Amanda's account, that has them going right back to Raf's and staying there after leaving the cottage, is also proved false by Popovich's second visit at 20:40 to find Raf was not there. Yet, Amanda made no mention of Raf leaving the apartment.
I agree that Popovic and Jovanovic are are most likely one and the same person. I also believe that Popovic 'was' Raffaele's housekeeper/maid.It was also she that was questioned about Raffaele's bleach.


Maybe I am mis-reading, but I get the opposite impression from this testimony, i.e. that Raffaele was not there when she first stopped by and that he was there at 20:40, at least according to Amanda, who invited her up.

Am I not understanding something?


You're quite right Skep, my mistake. It was the earlier time that Raf wasn't there. However, it still messes up both of their given accounts for the same reasons I mentioned before. I'm Glad you set me straight before I updated the timeline :)

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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:33 pm   Post subject:    

"Popovich's second visit at 20:40 to find Raf was not there. "

No, it was at the first visit when Raf was missing for a while.
At 20:40 Raf was there according to Amanda through the intercom as reported by Jovana (who, of course, did not see Raf).
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 6:12 pm   Post subject: Re: Dateline   

Michael wrote:
DLW wrote:
'I don't suppose some kind American among us could get a copy of that (Dateline Program) online somewhere for us at a later point...or will they actually put it online themselves?'…Michael

I have it set up on my Tivo. I’m not computer savvy enough to know how to put it online. After a period of time Dateline offers what is called Quick Cuts on their MSNBC website...


Okay, thanks DLW. I'm not sure what a Tivo is...but maybe someone else will be able to record it and load it up for us :)


A Tivo is a DVR designed to maintain the copyright of the material it records.

I doubt there is any way to upload copyright material online from a Tivo. It's reason to be is to prevent just that happening. A copyright notification which the Tivo recognises is incorporated into the video information it records.

Of course, you could always do a Soozie, using a cornflake box and a mobile phone camera to record the sound and vision direct from the TV playback and upload that. It's called the "digital to analogue gap". Something through which no technology can prevent a leak. The information is recorded in digital format but we view it and hear it in an analogue form. After all we're only human. That's why we'll always find a way to beat a machine even if we have to use a cornflake box..
:lol:
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 6:37 pm   Post subject: Re: Dateline   

Brian S. wrote:
Michael wrote:
DLW wrote:
'I don't suppose some kind American among us could get a copy of that (Dateline Program) online somewhere for us at a later point...or will they actually put it online themselves?'…Michael

I have it set up on my Tivo. I’m not computer savvy enough to know how to put it online. After a period of time Dateline offers what is called Quick Cuts on their MSNBC website...


Okay, thanks DLW. I'm not sure what a Tivo is...but maybe someone else will be able to record it and load it up for us :)


A Tivo is a DVR designed to maintain the copyright of the material it records.

I doubt there is any way to upload copyright material online from a Tivo. It's reason to be is to prevent just that happening. A copyright notification which the Tivo recognises is incorporated into the video information it records.

Of course, you could always do a Soozie, using a cornflake box and a mobile phone camera to record the sound and vision direct from the TV playback and upload that. It's called the "digital to analogue gap". Something through which no technology can prevent a leak. The information is recorded in digital format but we view it and hear it in an analogue form. After all we're only human. That's why we'll always find a way to beat a machine even if we have to use a cornflake box..
:lol:


LOL, indeed! So, who's got a cornflake box then? :lol:

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Anonymous


PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 6:42 pm   Post subject:    

Quote:
In international (and local) cases, it's natural that family and supporters of defendees try to obtain clemency (in addition to the purely legal efforts of the local - Saudi or Italian - legal teams) . Maybe it may obtain results.

What is counterproductive is to try to convince a foreign power (via a letter to the prime minister) that unsupported conclusions by an American judge, based on an American legal opinion, and presented on official State of Washington paper should be taken into account to change the direction of the judicial process of this case.

In this case, in fact, it was so counterproductive that it contributed to Judge Micheli's decision to keep Amanda in Capanne prison rather than considering house arrest or some other arrangement.


This is very true. To give an example of how counter-productive this international pressure can be, in the Saudi case, the British government and International Media circus aided by the British family & friends of the accused, had all put so much pressure on Saudi Arabia that , in the end, the situation got completely out of hand. They began by criticising Saudi law, prosecution system, and finally the Saudi way of life & everything Saudi! This in turn threatened the diplomatic relationship between Britain & Saudi. With neither side willing to budge, the threat of a multi-billion dollar relationship (in the form of trade, technology, oil, weapons, etc.) between the two countries was on the verge of breakdown.

The saga finally ended when the defence lawyers (aided by the generousity of financial investing giants, who did not want to see trade relations between the two countries being severed at any cost!) found a loop-hole in Saudi Law; according to which: should someone be condemned of murder, the only way that they can avoid the death pentaly is if the victim's family see it fit to pardon the murderer (i.e. if the victim's family think that there were circumstantial reasons, or it was an unintended manslaughter, or that the accused have demonstrated adequate remorse & atonement, such that they can be pardoned).

This is what happened in the end. In a bid to avoid an international financial & diplomatic crisis of a grand scale, the Australian nurse's only living relative (her brother) was coerced into pardoning the two Brits for murdering his sister. Subsequently, they avoided the death penalty & were sent back to Britain.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:00 pm   Post subject: ADMINISTRATOR NOTE   

:!: Administrator Note:

New Community Feature...our own Perugia Murder File Google Search Page!


For some time I've been working behind the scenes on a number of little projects for our community and they are now just coming to completion. I'm therefore happy to announce our very own Perugia Murder File Google Search Engine Page! This is one to save to the top of your Browser Favourites list (just beneath Perugia Murder File of course ;) ). Or, you can even make it your home page simply by clicking on the option to do so :)

Now, above the search box are your different search options...'Web' is the standard Google search of the Web, select 'Forum' for your search instead and it will search just 'Perugia murder File', 'T.C.M.B' will search the True Crime Weblog Message Board, 'T.J.M.K' selected will search T.J.M.K (obviously), 'Damiano' selected will search Damian's Blog. Clicking the arrow to the right will expand the search options and reveal 'P.S' which will search Perugia Shock and there's a few other handy ones there such as 'News'. If however, you select the magic 'Meredith' search, your term will be searched in: Perugia Murder File, The True Crime Weblog Message Board, T.J.M.K, Damian's blog and Perugia Shock!!! :)

You can get to the page by clicking on the dynamic link above (middle click to open in new tab) or clicking within the page in the box below (just use your mouse wheel or the scroll bar in the right of the box to scroll up or down within it if you need to) :) b-((




[web]http://search.conduit.com/default.aspx?&SearchSourceOrigin=2&SelfSearch=1&hl=en&ctid=CT1618244&octid=CT1618244[/web]

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:06 pm   Post subject: Welcome Socrates42   

Socrates42 wrote:
Quote:
In international (and local) cases, it's natural that family and supporters of defendees try to obtain clemency (in addition to the purely legal efforts of the local - Saudi or Italian - legal teams) . Maybe it may obtain results.

What is counterproductive is to try to convince a foreign power (via a letter to the prime minister) that unsupported conclusions by an American judge, based on an American legal opinion, and presented on official State of Washington paper should be taken into account to change the direction of the judicial process of this case.

In this case, in fact, it was so counterproductive that it contributed to Judge Micheli's decision to keep Amanda in Capanne prison rather than considering house arrest or some other arrangement.


This is very true. To give an example of how counter-productive this international pressure can be, in the Saudi case, the British government and International Media circus aided by the British family & friends of the accused, had all put so much pressure on Saudi Arabia that , in the end, the situation got completely out of hand. They began by criticising Saudi law, prosecution system, and finally the Saudi way of life & everything Saudi! This in turn threatened the diplomatic relationship between Britain & Saudi. With neither side willing to budge, the threat of a multi-billion dollar relationship (in the form of trade, technology, oil, weapons, etc.) between the two countries was on the verge of breakdown.

The saga finally ended when the defence lawyers (aided by the generousity of financial investing giants, who did not want to see trade relations between the two countries being severed at any cost!) found a loop-hole in Saudi Law; according to which: should someone be condemned of murder, the only way that they can avoid the death pentaly is if the victim's family see it fit to pardon the murderer (i.e. if the victim's family think that there were circumstantial reasons, or it was an unintended manslaughter, or that the accused have demonstrated adequate remorse & atonement, such that they can be pardoned).

This is what happened in the end. In a bid to avoid an international financial & diplomatic crisis of a grand scale, the Australian nurse's only living relative (her brother) was coerced into pardoning the two Brits for murdering his sister. Subsequently, they avoided the death penalty & were sent back to Britain.


Welcome Socrates42! :)

You are absoultely right. The Friends of Amanda campaign with Anne Bremner and Judge Michael Heavey has so far been an unmittigated disaster for Amanda Knox, having done her image no good in the process either. I have seen no evidence that the campaign has gained them any extra followers either. The fallout from their bad judgement, they of course do not fail to blame on the Italians and media. Failing to take responsibility for their own actions is a trait they lack...very much like the person they are supporting. But then, like attracks like as they say.

Again, welcome to the board (I've seen some of your excellent posts on T.J.M.K) and feel free to look over all the forums here. I'm still in the process of building the databases, but there's still much to see and it's constantly being added to and upgraded :)

Michael

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Offline DLW


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:24 pm   Post subject:    

(OT) Justice finally catches up with O J Simpson. He gets 9 yrs. (minimal) in a Nevada State prison for conspiracy to commit a crime and related gun charges. Although he did apologize and said he was only trying to recover some of his sports memorabilia.
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 2:32 am   Post subject:    

OK

I've tried my best but I'm forced to abandon my search for reliable reference to the finding of the keys.

I've perfected my own method of searching for historical stories in the Italian press and it works pretty well provided the publication leaves history on-line.

Unfortunately, AGI and ADNKronos remove their history after a couple of weeks.

History from Le Stampa, La Nazione, La Repubblica and Corriere Della Sera and many others is all on-line and given a reasonable idea of time frame and what to search for, I don't think there is much which has been printed in those publications I won't find. I can use the same search criteria on them all at the same time.

Il Messagero remains a mystery.


Neither the Corriere Dell'Umbria or Il Giornal Dell'Umbria leave their history on line which is a real pity because I believe that is where the answer to the keys question could be found.

So. What do I know?

On 3rd, 4th and 5th November it was widely reported right across the Italian press that the police were searching for 3 things in particular. The murder weapon, Meredith's keys and the keys to the boys apartment downstairs which had been given to Meredith. They believed the killer may have gone downstairs to obtain a change of clothes. Apparently, the plants were left untouched.

On the 3rd and 4th November access to the cottage was pretty much restricted to the forensics team in their white suits.

On the 5th November, Mignini and the heads of the murder and flying squads arrived with Amanda to carry out a search.

Following the search, Amanda left with a towel covering her face before both she and Sollecito went to the police station for further questioning and were later arrested.

Following this, mention of the keys pretty much disappeared from the media although the missing murder weapon continued to maintain a high profile until the knife was recovered from Sollecito's apartment some days later.

On the 13th November Frank said "We know the keys were found in Amanda's room".

I think we should take him at his word. I think the keys were found on the 5th November during the search which "required" Amanda's presence. A towel says I'm right.
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 2:34 am   Post subject:    

Candace Dempsey's blog is still Deletion Central:

Posted by Trieste at 12/5/08 5:50 p.m.

I posted a few moments ago, but for some reason my post was deleted.

I asked, politely, whether what Frank of Perugia Shock said today was true: that "Funnycat" is your sister and that "everybody knows" that.

I asked for clarification.

Why not just answer the question? What is there to hide?

Or, at the very least, have the courtesy to respond to my query i.e. why won't you respond? Why just delete a perfectly reasonable question? That doesn't make sense.

Thank you.


What is there to hide indeed? I think I can answer Trieste's question:

A relationship with Madison Paxton who runs the Free Amanda and Raffaele facebook group.

A relationship with Edda Mellas who is Amanda Knox's mother.

A relationship with Doug Longhini who was responsible for the dreadful 48 Mystery on CBS News.

A book deal that she kept secret from her readers. She only admitted it after she had been rumbled by Fast Pete on the True Justice For Meredith Kercher website.

The fact that funnycat is her sister. A fact she has NEVER acknowledged, but just pretended that she was a forensic expert.

Introducing the key players from Team Knox like Doug Preston and Frank from Perugia Shock to each other.
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Offline indie


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:25 am   Post subject:    

Brian S. wrote:
OK

I've tried my best but I'm forced to abandon my search for reliable reference to the finding of the keys.

I've perfected my own method of searching for historical stories in the Italian press and it works pretty well provided the publication leaves history on-line.



Maybe you should explore getting a patent w-(( w-(( We are in awe of your skills.


DATELINE REPORT

I just finished watching Dateline. Unfortunately not much new to report. 99% was a rehash of the first Dateline.

The following stood out for me:

The narrator referred to Amanda as the "connective tissue" between the suspects. I thought that was a very interesting metaphor.

Clint VZ stated Amanda's DNA is also on the clasp besides Raffaele's and later he stated Amanda's DNA is on the bra. Not sure what to make of it.

Dateline did show a video clip of Anne Bremner reviewing the crime scene investigators with her comments while Clint observer this video. Then another clip of the crime scene investigators working at the scene was playing on the screen in the background while Clint stated he too felt there was some evidence of sloppy work, i.e. lack of hair nets, and he mentioned something else. He said the defense should and will use that excuse.

All in all I felt Clint was leaning towards their guilt but he seemed LESS emphatic about it than the first Dateline. I felt he was disappointed in some of the crime scene investigation.

Next they had an independent lawyer, I did not catch his name but he has lots of experience in Italian law. He feels the case is STRONG against Amanda and she needs to come up with a VERY cohesive and solid story to explain the evidence. This lawyer wishes the whole Vampire Anime theory would not have been theorized as a possible motive. He felt it just was NOT NECESSARY to understanding the crime.

There ya go Michael- an American contribution. Hope this helps till you all can see it for yourselves on the net.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 5:32 am   Post subject: Dateline video clips   

Here is the link to several video clips from the DATELINE program:

Criminal defense attorney Theodore Simon, a specialist in international law, talks to Dateline's Dennis Murphy about the system of justice Amanda Knox will face in an Italian courtroom next month.

Defense attorney explains the Italian justice system

On the same website:

- How damning is the evidence? (Clint Van Zandt)

- See police video of student murder in Italy

The updated story on the MSNBC website:

The Mystery of Meredith's Murder

I agree with Indie - nothing new, really.
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Offline DakotaJune


Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:13 am

Posts: 2

PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 8:28 am   Post subject:    

Hey guys, if anyone wants to watch (or archive) the video of the entire episode of the Dateline special here is a link to a bittorrent file:
http://www.mininova.org/get/2069206

If you have never used bittorrent before you need to download a client first (http://www.utorrent.com/download.php) and then load the .torrent file in it.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 2:33 pm   Post subject:    

DakotaJune wrote:
Hey guys, if anyone wants to watch (or archive) the video of the entire episode of the Dateline special here is a link to a bittorrent file:
http://www.mininova.org/get/2069206

If you have never used bittorrent before you need to download a client first (http://www.utorrent.com/download.php) and then load the .torrent file in it.



Hey DakotaJune,

Thanks for that. I guess I'll wait until Monday cos my partner will hog the Windoze PC all weekend. This PC is running Linux and the torrent will only work if I download Wine.



Indie,

You make me blush.
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Offline Kermit


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 3:31 pm   Post subject: Come on down!!   

DakotaJune wrote:
Hey guys, if anyone wants to watch (or archive) the video of the entire episode of the Dateline special here is a link to a bittorrent file:
http://www.mininova.org/get/2069206


Welcome DakotaJune, and an advance welcome to all other new posters on the verge of making their first posts!

DakotaJune, I've installed Vuze, and the Dateline show is racing down the line as I type this.
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 5:27 pm   Post subject:    

I'd like to echo Kermit's sentiments and welcome all new visitors to the site and I hope to see many of them participate in the discussions about the case.

Both Perugia Murder File and True Justice For Meredith Kercher are a different class to some of the other websites that cover the case. The owners are not seeking to make a profit from Meredith's tragic murder. They do not have a secret relationship with the prime murder suspect's family and attempt to use the sites as a vehicle for Amanda Knox's supporters to misinform the public.

Both sites have intelligent discussion about the case without undignified name-calling, bleaching of comments and posts that insult Meredith's family.
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Offline Michael

Site Admin


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Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 5:33 pm   Post subject: ADMINISTRATOR NOTE!   

Administrator Note :!:


I have considerably upgraded our Perugia Murder File Google Search Engine - see my post announcing the feature yesterday HERE

I've changed 'Forum' search to the more recognisable 'P.M.F' (Perugia Murder File) and added a brand new community search catagory 'It-Media' (for 'Italian Media'). When selecting 'It-Media', your term will be searched on the following Italian news sites:

agi.it
adnkronos.com
lanazione.ilsole24ore.com
repubblica.it
lastampa.it
corriere.it
ansa.it
panorama.it
asca.it

Shout to Brian: Will that be of help to you Brian?

If someone would very kindly test out our search engine for us and let us know it all works fine for you, it would be much appreciated :)

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:43 pm   Post subject: Welcome   

A late welcome to all new members.
The Machine's welcome and explanation are perfect.
I am only now catching up on PMs, emails and posts, having been away from the computer for 24 hours. I also missed the Dateline show due to a holiday party that ended late but was fun.
But thanks to the efforts of Kermit, Guermantes, Brian and others, it looks as if we can all view it. Thanks! :!:
I will do just that after a nap, which is the last step in my personal 4-step hangover removal method. (Steps 1, 2 and 3 are: a hot bath, followed by a cold compress resting over the face for twenty minutes while lying in a prone position, followed by a good breakfast.) Like I said, the party ended late and somebody kept filling my glass.
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Offline Kermit


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Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:37 am

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:05 pm   Post subject: A Toast to Us   

Michael, thanks for your none stop work in maintaining and improving this site ....

DakotaJune, thanks for the Dateline download link ....

Both of those words of thanks are related to and added to a word of congratulations to all of us, the descendants of Steve Huff's boards: what a surprise I had as I watched the Dateline show and saw on the projected screen behind the presenters, our measurement analysis of the Double DNA knife. It was obviously ours, as it came out of a discussion on the original board with Oceania88, concerning the length of the knife. At the time of that discussion in the spring, I dug up a Matrix screen shot of the knife (easily identifiable by the red "Matrix" tag in the upper lift. Since the ILE ruler didn't go the whole length of the knife, I doubled it, then marked 17.5 cm length that I estimated the knife blade to be.

And now NBC has used that item, from the TrueCrime Weblog discussion! Such material, along with translations and analysis you won't find elsewhere except on TCWB and its descendents.

((I should have copyrighted that doctored Matrix screenshot :lol: ))




Here's our original TCWB Double DNA knife. You can see that NBC removed the "This is no potato peeler" comment.

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Offline Rhonda


Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 6:23 pm

Posts: 44

Location: Northern California

PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:26 pm   Post subject:    

LOL kermit that's cool! Wonder if they left the "This is no potatoe peeler" on it???
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Offline Jools


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:50 am   Post subject:    

Kermit porfa manda a la otra rana a la Cocinera Felliniana con esa noticia, con un poco de suerte se atrangantan todos durante un rato!
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Offline nicki

Forensics Moderator


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:27 am

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:59 am   Post subject:    

Jools wrote:
Kermit porfa manda a la otra rana a la Cocinera Felliniana con esa noticia, con un poco de suerte se atrangantan todos durante un rato!


Jools,

Eres fantastica:"la Cocinera Felliniana"... no better way to describe this character! :D
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 2:53 am   Post subject: The truth of the matter   

I'm sorry that in thanking people earlier, I omitted DakotaJune, who actually made the video available. At least I welcomed you, DakotaJune. :oops:

Now that I have completed step 4 of my hangover cure, I can go and watch Dateline. With a big smile as I recall the quarrel I had with O8 over the size of the knife. It was the second time she had tried to claim that the knife taken from Sollecito's flat was akin to a vegetable peeler. In fact, O8 was the inspiration for the board rule requiring people to be able and willing to back up any claim presented as factual with evidence.

When I protested, she claimed that the entire knife was 175 mm, when in fact it was just the blade. And to boot, although this will not surprise many people, she was not really responding to the substance of what I was saying. She was using a fragment of it to make another spurious claim.

I was saying that it was unlikely that the knife was used by AK for personal protection because it was too big to carry around in a purse. In fact, as Nicki I believe then clarified, too big to be legal in Italy. But not too big for O8, who turned it into a carrot peeler because she wanted to prove that this particular knife was not robust enough to be the murder weapon.

Here's what Kermit wrote:
Skep, you can go back to version one of your post. The 175 mm (17.5 centimeters) refers to the knife blade, as the photo of the knife shows.

However, the best part was the way in which O8 dealt with the physical evidence. She blamed someone else! Somehow I suspect this won't come as a surprise to many either. She wrote:

Quote:
... I was going off the knife at PS and Frank confirmed to a poster a while back that the knife was 7", I presumed he meant the entire knife, maybe he was referring only to the blade although he didn't say that.


Anyone with time on their hands can go and dig up that old comment of Frank's (naturally, O8 did not provide it for the benefit of all), but it is probably not worth the trouble.

It's gratifying to see, though, that our collective effort, is helping to bring justice for Meredith. And I include O8 in the collectivity. John Stuart Mills believed that a certain degree of opposition and conflict were needed to arrive at the truth. He was wise enough to realize that arguments and disputes serve a vital purpose.


Last edited by Skeptical Bystander on Sun Dec 07, 2008 3:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 2:58 am   Post subject: Thanks, Michael   

Oh, and Michael, thanks for the search engine and for organizing and gathering all the materials in a handy way. :D
You deserve a medal or something! 8-) 8-) 8-)
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 3:21 am   Post subject:    

Thanks for the link to the updated MSNBC article, Guermantes. I just looked at the comments again, and notice that Clint Van Zandt is interacting with posters.
I recognized Harry Rag, an old friend ;) whose star must be rising now that the bathmat shuffle is in vogue, and must confess that I adopted a special occasion name (victoria_hugo) to post there a couple of days ago. I was inspired by someone I don't even know (cherchezlafemme), whose intelligent and patient posts I enjoy reading on the PI Blog.

Here's one of CVZ's comments (emphasis mine):

As indicated, this case has been challenged by the family, friends and supporters of Knox, some who have spoken to me to provide their version of what happened and why Amanda is innocent. As seen on the Dateline special, Knox's family states what they believe as truth, although, of course, they were not there. I have received a ton of e-mail this past year with criticism for either supporting Knox or trying to convict her. Neither, of course, is true. Like many of you, I only want to see justice done for Meredith and want those responsible for her death held responsible the part they played in her death. Evidence is not just black and white. There is always room for its interpretation, and that is what the court is for. Experts will line up on both sides of the case trying to prove their point, really trying to win. For those of you who have followed every report on this case, please know that the media, law enforcement, and the family, friends and supporters all have a dog in this fight. We can only hope that the ultimate truth somehow comes out in this case and that justice, while blind, will not be stupid or swayed by anything other than the evidence.


Last edited by Skeptical Bystander on Sun Dec 07, 2008 5:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:58 am   Post subject:    

Clint Van Zant replied to Harry's post:

Harry,

I accept all that you say and believe that there is a difficult road ahead for the two remaining suspects. I too believe that the forensic evidence and, in my case, especially the indicated behavior of the two suspects was highly telling. Were you and I to be working the case with the authorities, I'm sure we'd suggest that it appeared they had their co-conspirators, short of significant physical evidence to the contrary. I simply don't want to paint the two remaining suspects too deep into the corner by my words and tv appearances. Take TV for example. NBC Dateline probably shot 50 or more hours for the first show last year and many for the current show, only 47 minutes of which is ever seen on TV. My latest interview was about 4 hours, only a few minutes of which made it on TV, so there are a lot of believed facts and conclusions that never made the show.

I know that I'm not the fact finder in this case and I know how sensitive this case has been in the UK, Italy, and the US. Most people have lined up on one side or the other, believing beyond belief of the absolute guilt or innocence of the three suspects. I simply choose to wait until the information from the media actually becomes the true facts in the trial.

Thanks for your email!
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:09 pm   Post subject:    

Someone raised an interesting point on the TJMK board. Were Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito given a drugs test once they became suspects? You would think that it would be standard procedure when a murder involved a frenzied attack.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 5:42 pm   Post subject: Drug tests   

TM wrote:

Quote:
Someone raised an interesting point on the TJMK board. Were Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito given a drugs test once they became suspects? You would think that it would be standard procedure when a murder involved a frenzied attack.


I have never seen this question answered, but looked into the question of drug testing awhile ago, mainly to see how it is done and what the time frames are. I'm sure there are posters here who are far more qualified than I am who could enlighten us. I do remember reading, though, that for some drugs testing is done five or more days after the date of ingestion, which is the time it takes for the residue to embed itself in human hair.

I'll see if I can find this information again, but would be grateful if someone else has something to share. (Nicki? Michael?)
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