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V. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 2 - Dec 31, 08

Moderators: Nell, Ergon, Michael, Moderators


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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:14 am   Post subject: Re: What do I know?   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Nicki wrote:

Quote:
Hi Tara,
What else could we expect from such a rude and arrogant individual? I 've never thought much of Frank and his blog, so I'm not a bit surprised about his nasty reaction.


Hi Nicki,

Do you have a sense of how Frank is perceived inside Italy? Does he have a following? Most of his readers now seem to be English speakers. I don't see many Italians making comments on his blog.

And what do people make of these weird insinuations coming from Spezi, Preston, Dempsey and now Frank about Mignini and his methods? It all seems so bizarre to me, but perhaps others see Popham's story as compelling.


Hi Skep,

I would say that Italians plainly ignore the existence of Frank's blog. I had found one blog a while ago -I am trying to find the link-where the blog host had posted about PS but they didn't have nice words for it.I remember they called it callous and disrespectful of Meredith's memory. There are a few blogs following the Kercher case and they they are solidly pro-prosecution. It doesn't take much to understand what's behind Frank's behavior.

About Spezi, he has made a come back on local press thanks to Meredith's murder, it has been a long time since nobody wrote about his case. But Italians are generally not stupid and they also tend to be cynical, so nobody is surprised that the Spezi 's case has re-emerged right when his book came out.

Incidentally, the Spezi -Preston book surely didn't make it to the top list here.

About Demspey, nobody knows who she is.

May I add that the Italian blogosphere showed outrage at the attempts of Bremner and her 7th Cavalry to rescue the prisoner from those primitive Italian savages.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:34 am   Post subject:    

"checks on the receipts issued on November 2 2007."

They verify the receipts issued in the shop were this new witness said he had seen Amanda.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:09 pm   Post subject: The cleanup.   

This story could do with a better translation but:

All the fingerprints found in the cottage have been identified except 14.
One of those was that on the pillow later identified as Rudy's. Two others in Meredith's room were on a plastic bag and one was on the door jamb, probably left when the door was broken down.

Although Amanda had lived there until the last week before Meredith's murder when she moved in with Raffaele, and despite the fact that on the morning of the 2nd by her own admission she went home for a shower and put some washing in the machine, the only fingerprint found in that cottage belonging to Amanda was found on a glass in the kitchen and not a single one was in her own room.

Who says there wasn't a cleanup????

The 14 unidentified fingerprints and the "cleansing" of the crime scene.

Google translation of a story in the CU
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:20 pm   Post subject: ADMINISTRATOR NOTE   

Administrator Note:

Hello everyone,

New Forum Feature! Please view the DATA, LINK, PHOTO AND VIDEO REQUESTS Sticky thread in the Projects For Meredith forum.

Thank You

Michael

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:34 pm   Post subject: Questions   

Brian quoted:

Quote:
I’m not directing any plot, it’s all much simpler. In America, they know me because of my book and they asked me for help.” Mignini spoke at length during the indictment about ’systematic attacks on the judiciary.’ Where are they coming from? “From nine thousand kilometres away” even if “the minds behind it are in Italy”. Spezi doesn’t have doubts about this, “He’s talking about me, it’s clear.” Also because it’s sufficent to go to his blog and read “It seems like Putin’s Russia but in fact it’s Perugia.” It’s not a coincidence then that Spezi received the letter that Heavey addressed to the CSM asking for “Knox’s trial to be moved to a different court or given to another magistrate in order to obtain a fair trial.” There are men behind the cards and battles that seem to go on for years.



Who are they and when did they ask Spezi for help?
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:01 pm   Post subject: Spezi   

Here's Spezi's site...I see he likes Peter Popham's article:

MARIO SPEZI'S SITE GOOGLE TRANSLATION

SPEZI'S SITE ITALIAN

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:05 pm   Post subject: Frankie's a soul man   

Brian wrote:

Quote:
Frank hails from Florence, Spezi's home town. He returned to Perugia (his university town) to cover this case.


Actually, Frank supposedly hails from Rome and was living in Florence when Meredith was murdered. But consider the source for this information: Candace Dempsey, on her blog. What was Frank doing in Florence?
In the Seattle Times article on the financial woes of the Knox and Mellas families, Frank's profession was given as film studies professor at the University.... Has anyone seen his name on a list of faculty members? Did he miraculously find a job as a film studies professor after Meredith was murdered and he turned up in town? Anne Bremner refers to him as a "journalist."
Frank may or may not have had ties to Spezi before he insinuated himself into the force field of competing interests around Meredith's death. I think it is more likely that the parties in America who asked for Spezi's help suggested that he check out Frankie.

Brian wrote:
Quote:
Frank has a background of an interest in crime, Spezi's speciality was as a crime reporter.


What is Frank's background of interest in crime? I would be interested in knowing what Frank's background is, actually, and how it relates to crime. Has he run other true crime blogs? I thought he was a film studies professor, or a journalist... or something. :)

Brian wrote:
Quote:
Frank has just out of the blue praised Oceania. I'm not aware she has ever contributed much to his blog. Why the high opinion for someone who has hardly ever posted. He must have followed her posting elsewhere to form any opinion.


O8 has posted from time to time on Frank's blog. He used to gently make fun of her. I remember when she reported (on our board) the conversation with the driver of the University president and how the university put pressure on Mignini and the police to solve the crime quickly, which led to sloppy work, etc. and Frank completely demolished that as sheer and utter rubbish. Remember that, Nicki? :lol:

Brian wrote:
Quote:
EDIT: She has been silent since July 8th. I'm gonna track down when she made her visit to Perugia.


Well, not exactly silent. She has posted a bit on Frank's and Candace's, and is now quite vocal about Mignini as well as Micheli. They are all part of the vast judicial conspiracy which finds its origins in her febrile mind.
O8 decided to stop posting after she launched the libel controversy on our board, which coincided exactly with the anonymous email sent to Steve Huff from a Chris Mellas IP address threatening a "slander" suit against Steve and his co-administrator and his moderators. The poster Abby left in a huff at the same time. Abby never made much of a contribution to our board, but presented herself as someone convinced of the guilt of AK and RS. I won't go into details, but O8 got her to post a defense of O8 and then she went absolutely nuts, running to Steve Huff to complain. When that got her nowhere, she had a meltdown and went ballistic against Michael and me, her co-oppressors. About 24 hours later, a charming person named Marm started posting occasionally at Frank's. All of her posts have been anti-TC, with a degree of obsessiveness that is comical or tragic, depending on how you look at it. I'm just sayin'.
I am guessing her latest visit to Perugia coincided with the end of the NZ summer. She wrote a comment on behalf of her entire family under Frank's one recent post about Meredith.

Brian wrote:
Quote:
Didn't Chris Mellas also visit Perugia around the time that the nature of Frank's blog changed?


There is no doubt in my mind that somebody must have made Frank an offer he couldn't refuse. One of Frank's most recent photos was one of Edda. It looks like it was taken by Frank himself, right there in Perugia.

Brian wrote:
Quote:
IW has visited Perugia and met Frank on more than one occasion.


My goodness. They seem to be thick as thieves. It is my opinion that Candace put Mellas in touch with Frankie.


Brian wrote:
Quote:
Charlie Wilkes has promoted Spezi's book ever since he came on the scene.


One of the funniest unscripted (not) moments was when Candace wrote her gushing review of the book, and one of the first comments was from Charlie, who wrote something like: "Splendid review! I shall be ordering my copy immediately!" Bling, bling, ka-ching!!!!

Brian wrote:
Quote:
Frank has never mentioned Spezi that I'm aware until his last post. Why has he previously avoided that talk. Did he want to avoid any connection until he had reason to report Mignini's trial?


I doubt it. I think Frankie was unaware of Spezi until the friends from America got to him. When the friends first started posting Preston and Spezi lore on his blog, he was not very impressed. He even on occasion reminded his readers that Spezi had spent very little time in jail and it was no big deal. I daresay he saw no connection to this case until fairly recently. Now, given how little we really know about Frank, I suppose you could argue that this indifference was feigned. Or that Frank goes whichever way he thinks the wind is blowing. Or that Frank has had undergone some kind of deep conversion after looking into his own soul. That implies the existence of one, however. :lol:
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:18 pm   Post subject: Re: Spezi   

Skep wrote:
I think it is more likely that the parties in America who asked for Spezi's help suggested that he check out Frankie...

Brian wrote:
Quote:
Frank has never mentioned Spezi that I'm aware until his last post. Why has he previously avoided that talk. Did he want to avoid any connection until he had reason to report Mignini's trial?


I doubt it. I think Frankie was unaware of Spezi until the friends from America got to him.


Hi Skep. I think you've got your finger right on the pulse there.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:12 pm   Post subject:    

Observation about Perugia Shock:

Frank has made his stories copyright.

This is recent.

For most of it's history Frank has operated Perugia Shock, copyleft with attribution.

An explanation of copyleft

Unless I'm much mistaken, once a story is published under copyleft, that license for others to use with attribution cannot be revoked.

Has the horse bolted before Frank shut the stable door???

Has Frank suddenly found a value for his articles?

EDIT: Frank was still using Copyleft on the 1st November:

Meredith, One year without you

Saturday 1st November.

© 2008 Copyleft upon attribution Frank M. Sfarzo.
- Look below the links on the right hand side.

Perugia Shock - Google cache

All stories since have been made copyright but because he has changed the license on the front page it appears that ALL stories at Perugia Shock are copyright.

I'm thinking about what to do about this. Google cache will run out and it's the only thing preserving the original license on all the stories up until November 1st.

Any bright ideas???


Last edited by Brian S. on Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline DLW


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:41 pm

Posts: 623

PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:13 pm   Post subject:    

Frank doesn’t think much about the new witness, doesn’t seem to think too much about the other witnesses either. Neither does Amanda. Store clerk doesn’t remember. But police have taken till receipts for Nov.2. I guess if no receipt is found it didn’t happen. The paper that first reported this should be closed, and the new witness should be questioned for offering false testimony.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:37 pm   Post subject: Emperor: buck naked now but NOT FOR LONG   

DLW wrote:

Quote:
Frank doesn’t think much about the new witness, doesn’t seem to think too much about the other witnesses either. Neither does Amanda. Store clerk doesn’t remember. But police have taken till receipts for Nov.2. I guess if no receipt is found it didn’t happen. The paper that first reported this should be closed, and the new witness should be questioned for offering false testimony.


Frank has appointed himself prosecutor, defender, judge, jury and official press organ. In a brave new world, Frank is the Emperor of Information. And the Emperor has no clothes.

Seriously, those damn regional journalists have been a thorn in Frankie's side ever since they beat him to the punch with a book that has already been published. The journalist Fois is just a young upstart, recently graduated from the University. What could he possibly know? I wonder if he is on the right side of the religion/sex/freedom divide?

Shut Down the Papers and Read All About It on Frank's Blog. Copyright protected.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 7:19 pm   Post subject: re: Copyleft   

Brian wrote:
I'm thinking about what to do about this. Google cache will run out and it's the only thing preserving the original license on all the stories up until November 1st.

Any bright ideas???


Hi Brian. Wouldn't some screenshots do the trick?

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 7:32 pm   Post subject: Re: Copyleft & Witnesses   

Skep wrote:
Shut Down the Papers and Read All About It on Frank's Blog. Copyright protected.


It would appear also, that the comments section for his new article is disabled. It would seem that Frank's had enough of his audience :)

Skep, DLW -

Frank wrote:
But personally I have a criterion, among others, to tell if a witness is reliable or not. If he says something unexpected there are good chances that he's reliable.
I've always been skeptical about Toto and the Albanian, for instance, because they said exactly what was daily reported in the news...


Well, under this arbitrary criteria it basically means ruling out 'any' witnesses that say 'amything' that supports the prosecution's theory. A fantastically convenient and useful criteria to impose if one wishes to argue for the innocence of the suspects. It is the literary magic wand to remove all potentially dangerous witnesses at a stroke!

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline DLW


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:41 pm

Posts: 623

PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:46 pm   Post subject:    

Well I learned something new reading some of the comments from Frank. Yes traces of bleach were found in a lot places at the cottage, and all detergents have bleach in them. I guess a logical conclusion of this is so what if they found that the flat was cleaned with bleach.
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 9:17 pm   Post subject:    

I guess Frank's just doing his job, he has to toe the party line now doesn't he?

A new witness comes forward and he has to discredit them - what's new?
This isn't the first time, nor will it be the last.

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Meredith Kercher.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 9:38 pm   Post subject: Me, myself, I   

It sounds to me like the local journalists - and they are real journalists - are engaged in a little investigative journalism. They are digging up information, some of it good and some of it not, and it is being duly checked out. I don't see why this would be grounds for shutting down the paper. In what way is their work any different from Frank's? Doesn't he chase down his own scoops in order to attract online readers, which in turn now generates google ad revenue, which in turn defrays the cost of life as a freelance investigative journalist (or film professor or whatever)?

Seriously, what is the difference, except that Frank works for different interests. They have different masters, so to speak.

I do wish Frank would not use Amanda photos whenever he can possibly link her to his story of the day, however. While I am sure he intends nothing of the sort, using these photos makes it look like he's trying to capitalize on (and in his own small way contribute to) the ongoing effort to make this all about Amanda.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 9:48 pm   Post subject: Re: Me, myself, I   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
I do wish Frank would not use Amanda photos whenever he can possibly link her to his story of the day, however. While I am sure he intends nothing of the sort, using these photos makes it look like he's trying to capitalize on (and in his own small way contribute to) the ongoing effort to make this all about Amanda.


I think it's just that he's recognised, like some other press, that Amanda is a brand, whereas Raf and Rudy are not. Here in the UK, all the TV magazines have pictures of soap opera characters on the front covers every single week. When asked why they only have soap characters on their covers, their answer is simple - 'When we put soap actors on the cover they sell more copies.'. Amanda is 'soap'.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Jools


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:08 pm   Post subject: Frank makes it to K camp   

Frank Copyleft mode:
© 2008 Copyleft upon attribution Frank M. Sfarzo.
Collaborations:
-Margaret Ganong
-L.S. Bird
-Minnie Ott, Nanni Shultz (Germany)

These last two names have now gone from the credits/collaboration.

MONDAY, MAY 5, 2008

The Monster in my Bedroom
-As Giulia Bongiorno takes the job-

This is an interesting post from Frank (Beginning May) on the comments side, it is were he was complaining about the case being exensive and inserts a Paypal button.

"2befrank said...
Yes, this site is not a joke, it has little budget, big expenses and needs everyone support. Also because it wants to give more. Whoever wants to support do it now, thanks.

There were a lot of people there, Candace.

MAY 7, 2008 6:33 PM"

Frank was replying to this comment from Betty.

"Frank, I noticed the Donate button on the site. This is what you do. You start archiving (taking off the web)your earlier topics, including discussions. Then continue to filter out the dated ones - and print them - in book format, along with all the reponses. Either way, Amanda convicted or freed, it will sell. Simply because it has gone on so long with nibbets and snibbets - waiting for the ball to drop, so to speak.

It's worthy of a hardcover and spine. :)

betty"

Cmellas or Emellas was commenting at the same time and implying that he/she was in Perugia. So, perhaps there was a meeting and this is the turning point for Frank, of course the Paypal button didn't last very long, so maybe thats it...finances for his blog were sort it then. Also Isakelle AKA Oceania introduces herself and of course the ever crawling cook is there as well.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:24 pm   Post subject: The ever-crawling cook and isakelle   

Jools wrote:

Quote:
Frank Copyleft mode:
© 2008 Copyleft upon attribution Frank M. Sfarzo.
Collaborations:
-Margaret Ganong
-L.S. Bird
-Minnie Ott, Nanni Shultz (Germany)
These last two names have now gone from the credits/collaboration.


And although the person who owns the first name has requested that it be removed, this has not been done.

Jools wrote:
Quote:
This is an interesting post from Frank (Beginning May) on the comments side, it is were he was complaining about the case being exensive and inserts a Paypal button.

"2befrank said...
Yes, this site is not a joke, it has little budget, big expenses and needs everyone support. Also because it wants to give more. Whoever wants to support do it now, thanks.
...
Cellas or Emellas was commenting at the same time and implying that he/she was in Perugia. So, perhaps there was a meeting and this is the turning point for Frank, of course the Paypal button didn't last very long, so maybe thats it...finances for his blog were sort it then.


It would be fairly easy to see if the dates correspond. I am pretty sure it was around this time that CM went to Perugia.

Jools wrote:
Quote:
Also Isakelle AKA Oceania introduces herself and of course the ever crawling cook is there as well.


I like "ever-crawling cook"! And yes, dear Isakelle. How could we forget her?
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Offline Tara


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Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:33 pm   Post subject: Re: Me, myself, I   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
It sounds to me like the local journalists - and they are real journalists - are engaged in a little investigative journalism. They are digging up information, some of it good and some of it not, and it is being duly checked out. I don't see why this would be grounds for shutting down the paper. In what way is their work any different from Frank's? Doesn't he chase down his own scoops in order to attract online readers, which in turn now generates google ad revenue, which in turn defrays the cost of life as a freelance investigative journalist (or film professor or whatever)?

Seriously, what is the difference, except that Frank works for different interests. They have different masters, so to speak.

I do wish Frank would not use Amanda photos whenever he can possibly link her to his story of the day, however. While I am sure he intends nothing of the sort, using these photos makes it look like he's trying to capitalize on (and in his own small way contribute to) the ongoing effort to make this all about Amanda.


I just read a comment over at Pete's TJMK site posted by rob. He is saying that Frank's Perugia Shock blog was up and running the night of Meredith's murder, before the crime was discovered. Also interesting to note his claim of Frank being a "professori of books" - librarian. I know that rob has been around for the entire time from the very first Haloscan. What does this mean?

I remember this being discussed somewhere? I can't find Frank's very first entry. It's gone. If this is true, did he have an "in" with the ILE or did he simply listen to a police scanner, hear about the murder and immediately start a blog?

When he writes about the paper being shut down, isn't that rather hypocritical?

Will the real Frank please stand up?

1. Journalist

2. Film Professor

3. Librarian

4. Other
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:56 pm   Post subject: Frog-y   

Speaking of bleach, I'm glad I started copying and storing all of Frog-y's comments on the ECC blog (for Ever Crawling Cook or Endlessly Cleansed Comments) because they often get bleached. For example, several of Frog-y's most recent ones have suddenly disappeared, although I can't for the life of me figure out why.

Anyway, Candace denies having bleached Frog-y, except for his reply to Oceania. I don't know why she deleted that. Her garbled and short-tempered explanations sound like they were written in Italian and then translated by babelfish.

So here's a shout-out to Frog-y: I have copied all your posts if you are interested in retrieving them.

Gosh, it sure is hard to read between the lines when a purge goes down over there.

I hope Frog-y doesn't get too discouraged and stop posting there. His posts, Finn's and Yummi's are insightful and interesting to read. And surely ECC has done the math: indeed, she told her readers about the big increase in traffic since October. Finn alone was good but not enough. Yummi came on blog and suddenly real stuff was being said by someone knowledgeable. Then along came Frog-y, persistent, polite and persuasive. He didn't even get upset when the ECC outed him by revealing his "other" identity - something she claims she would never do to anyone. I guess Frog-y is not anyone!

Personally, I think Frog-y is about to become the victim of his own success. Shout-out to Candace: Don't do it! Your last remaining shred of cred hangs in the balance! Let Frog-y be frog-y!

And to Frog-y: Keep your head! Even though those around you are clearly losing theirs!
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:57 pm   Post subject:    

Hahahaha Skep, maybe the first person who owns the name should ask for remuneration for services/collaboration rendered. :lol: :lol:

Tara,

I think I said this before.

A long time ago, back in Nov 2007 I was reading other forums (Italian) that were talking about the Perugia case, and there was a poster somewhere I remember her name was Giornalista, was asking the other members if they didn't find it odd that a site called Frank shock blog dedicated to the case was started before the actual discovery of the murder, I think she was quoting the 1st November and since the body was not found till the 2nd she thought it was very peculiar.
The rest of the members started posting comments like: maybe this frank had something to do with the giallo and blah, blah, blah.

At the time I trusted Frank and his unbiased writing on the case so, I never went back to that other forum thinking that they were crazy conspiracists and never kept the adress, but the comments really stack with me.
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:01 pm   Post subject:    

Skep I also get the feeling when the ever crawling cook writes that she puts her post through the babel/google translator.

Maybe Frank does the writing of her stuff and then uses the bable.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:08 pm   Post subject: Tour de babel   

Jools wrote:

Quote:
Skep I also get the feeling when the ever crawling cook writes that she puts her post through the babel/google translator.
Maybe Frank does the writing of her stuff and then uses the babel.


Maybe they are Siamese twins who got separated at birth, and both have been babbling ever since. :)
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:41 pm   Post subject:    

Michael wrote on the Perugia Shock message board that there is a print of Amanda's in Meredith's room. Does anyone know where it was found? It'll be interesting to see if there were any fingerprints on Amanda's lamp which she left in Meredith's room. The fact there are none of Amanda's fingerprints in her own room is so incriminating. I wonder what explanation Amanda will give at the trial. She'll have to explain what inspired her to clean her room so comprehensively. It seems so out of character for her to be so diligent when it comes to household chores, especially when she couldn't be bothered to flush the toilet that contained Rudy Guede's faeces.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:59 pm   Post subject: Re: Frog-y   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Speaking of bleach, I'm glad I started copying and storing all of Frog-y's comments on the ECC blog (for Ever Crawling Cook or Endlessly Cleansed Comments) because they often get bleached. For example, several of Frog-y's most recent ones have suddenly disappeared, although I can't for the life of me figure out why.

Anyway, Candace denies having bleached Frog-y, except for his reply to Oceania. I don't know why she deleted that. Her garbled and short-tempered explanations sound like they were written in Italian and then translated by babelfish.

So here's a shout-out to Frog-y: I have copied all your posts if you are interested in retrieving them.

Gosh, it sure is hard to read between the lines when a purge goes down over there.

I hope Frog-y doesn't get too discouraged and stop posting there. His posts, Finn's and Yummi's are insightful and interesting to read. And surely ECC has done the math: indeed, she told her readers about the big increase in traffic since October. Finn alone was good but not enough. Yummi came on blog and suddenly real stuff was being said by someone knowledgeable. Then along came Frog-y, persistent, polite and persuasive. He didn't even get upset when the ECC outed him by revealing his "other" identity - something she claims she would never do to anyone. I guess Frog-y is not anyone!

Personally, I think Frog-y is about to become the victim of his own success. Shout-out to Candace: Don't do it! Your last remaining shred of cred hangs in the balance! Let Frog-y be frog-y!

And to Frog-y: Keep your head! Even though those around you are clearly losing theirs!



I have started a new thread Frog-y-rana DELETE WATCH and I have written an intro. Skep, do feel free to post Frog-y-rana's deleted posts into that thread :) The deletions so far...an incredible 8 and counting!

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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:07 am   Post subject:    

Charles Mudede has a short piece about the new witness on The Stranger. Here's the link:

CHARLES MUDEDE THE STRANGER

I really liked his article The Education of Amanda Knox:

http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=504236

EDIT: Michael, shortened and BB coded url
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 1:06 am   Post subject: The Education of Amanda Knox   

The Machine wrote:
Charles Mudede has a short piece about the new witness on The Stranger. Here's the link:

CHARLES MUDEDE THE STRANGER

I really liked his article The Education of Amanda Knox:

http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=504236


Actually, Charles Mudede's 'Education of Amanda Knox' has to be my favourite piece written on the case so far. It's wonderfully written. I only wish he'd cover the case more.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 1:08 am   Post subject: Knox Print   

The Machine wrote:
Michael wrote on the Perugia Shock message board that there is a print of Amanda's in Meredith's room. Does anyone know where it was found? It'll be interesting to see if there were any fingerprints on Amanda's lamp which she left in Meredith's room. The fact there are none of Amanda's fingerprints in her own room is so incriminating. I wonder what explanation Amanda will give at the trial. She'll have to explain what inspired her to clean her room so comprehensively. It seems so out of character for her to be so diligent when it comes to household chores, especially when she couldn't be bothered to flush the toilet that contained Rudy Guede's faeces.


Hi TM. Yes, I read it some time in the last 2-3 weeks and for the last two hours I've been trying to remember where. I'll see if I can find it.

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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 1:30 am   Post subject: Re: re: Copyleft   

Michael wrote:
Brian wrote:
I'm thinking about what to do about this. Google cache will run out and it's the only thing preserving the original license on all the stories up until November 1st.

Any bright ideas???


Hi Brian. Wouldn't some screenshots do the trick?


That's the best I can think of at the moment.

Perhaps you could save a screen shot somewhere here of the November 1st page from Google cache with the original license?
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 1:48 am   Post subject: Re: re: Copyleft   

Brian S. wrote:
Michael wrote:
Brian wrote:
I'm thinking about what to do about this. Google cache will run out and it's the only thing preserving the original license on all the stories up until November 1st.

Any bright ideas???


Hi Brian. Wouldn't some screenshots do the trick?


That's the best I can think of at the moment.

Perhaps you could save a screen shot somewhere here of the November 1st page from Google cache with the original license?


Have you got a link to any of those cached pages with 'copyleft' on? I've just had a look at the Google cache and it has 'copyright'.

_________________
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 2:03 am   Post subject: Rudy loves Amanda XXX - true   

A story I missed from the CU:

I must say that this take is beginning to resonate with me, sometimes. I find myself wondering if Raffaele was with Amanda and Rudy on that night.

If it's true that Amanda was on her own for the cleanup at the cottage early on the 2nd??

I know Raffaele must be involved in at least some kind of cover up, but why didn't he accompany Amanda to the cottage early on? Or did he??

Amanda said she went on her own to the cottage, even in the first call to her mother.

It's a take by CU on the contents of Rudy's diary:




Rudy and Amanda united by a secret

They are the real couple: Rudy and Amanda.The only people who still swear not to know, not having never before seen if fleetingly.Instead, the prosecutor, investigators and also for the court prior to the hearing are united by a secret inconfessabile.
Inconfessabile other friends, maybe the boyfriend Raffaele.

"We met on the street and was a hello"

, Says Rudy, nell'interrogatorio and also in other testimonies.
There are appreciations, one evening, friends below, but nothing more. But in fact filter manuscript from prison, twenty pages in which the Guédé tells the whole story and greets friends, the former basketball say much more about his relationship with Amanda.
Appreciations, glances, smiles, or even to imagine going to bed. But always denied the sexual act. The first meeting with the Knox is the pub,

"He was inside the room - begins Rudy - who knew Amanda.
I remember well that came up with a smile printed on the face, that evening I was alone there.
Began to speak 'how are you?. Where are you from? '. Until you told me that he was in Seattle. There I was happy because a few days before he left Italy a man with whom I had close friendship that he was in Seattle.
I said 'who knows, maybe it knows' and then I said I had a friend in Seattle who studies all'UW, namely at the University of Washington, called Victor.
She immediately said yes, then asked me if the Chinese had said no, Victor is half Russian and I understood that talking about two different people there, but there was something funny and we started talking. "

Now Rudy begins to provide details that seem "too many", designed to demonstrate that friendship with Amanda was very superficial.
Yet the impression that you have read the manuscript is the opposite:

"That - continues Rudy - was the first time I met Amanda.
Later I met a lot of times, but it was hello and forth, each on his way, there had attacked the report, I had my group to leave, there was no reason that I cling to you. "

Then the second meeting: Guédé is out for the birthday of his friend and drinking. Meet the boys with whom he played basketball at square Grimana:

"We knew - he writes - and I decided to stay with them in which a girl came up and started to attack button.
I asked where was and where were you told me you called Amanda and was in Seattle.There, for there had not recognized and said he had met a girl in Seattle the first day and she told me was that girl, in which collegai to have already seen, then I talked about children, Amanda, while taking the road of home, arrived near the square Grimana said hello to the children but they convinced me to come with them at home.
We wanted much to convince me and went home for these children for the first time, even though it was about four months and they saw that we played basketball together, was that evening that I gave the name of Baron Davis.
Meanwhile Amanda went to his house and the children lived under the plan. Entered, the children all begin to criticize Amanda, who most people not in the sense that it was a beautiful girl, who if the imagined In the notice, etc.. "

Rudy a fantastic night of sex, together with the other:

"I that evening I do not remember exactly what I said to him, but to go to bed with you yes, because we are all the guys that purpose.
Then one of the boys (I do not remember the names), began to make a cane and I asked if I had to pay and I said ma-what? and there started to smoke, in my case in quotation marks, and imagine all of us in bed with Amanda.
Then heard knocking and who was it? Amanda. We all watch and ridemmo, Amanda sat down and began to smoke too, was there that I knew who smoked a lot, I told the boys.
That evening my eyes and Amanda cross a lot and I exchanging you that smile like "yes, I know you like it, but nothing happened."


Obviously the start of a flirt. But he denied even knowing.


Corriere dell'Umbria Tuesday, 11 November 2008


Google translation of the Corriere story at Perugia News
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 2:19 am   Post subject: Was Raf There?   

Brian wrote:
I must say that this take is beginning to resonate with me, sometimes. I find myself wondering if Raffaele was with Amanda and Rudy on that night.

If it's true that Amanda was on her own for the cleanup at the cottage early on the 2nd??


Brian, it has always been in my mind that Raf may not have been there for part of the clean-up. It would have been dangerous for Raf to have been seen/discovered at the cottage during daylight...but much safer for Amanda, since she lived there and having rigged Meredith's body to make it clear that she'd been sexually attacked, broke the window and tossed the place, it would have made it appear Amanda had merely stumbled onto the scene (who would consider her a sex attacker?). Once it was daylight and one of the flatmates could come back potentially any time, a male presence (Raf) would have been too dangerous...at least until a later point in the day when the contrived story of Amanda going back to get Raf due to what she'd discovered could be put in play. In fact, whilst Amanda went to the cottage, it's even possible that Raf was busy taking care of other things at 'his' apartment, maybe even doing stuff like dumping the phones. If Amanda went to the cottage on her own in the morning, it doesn't necessarily rule Raffaele out of having taken part in the crime.

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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 2:24 am   Post subject: Re: re: Copyleft   

Michael wrote:
Brian S. wrote:
Michael wrote:
Brian wrote:
I'm thinking about what to do about this. Google cache will run out and it's the only thing preserving the original license on all the stories up until November 1st.

Any bright ideas???


Hi Brian. Wouldn't some screenshots do the trick?


That's the best I can think of at the moment.

Perhaps you could save a screen shot somewhere here of the November 1st page from Google cache with the original license?


Have you got a link to any of those cached pages with 'copyleft' on? I've just had a look at the Google cache and it has 'copyright'.


THE CACHE FOR NOVEMBER 1ST HAS CHANGED.

This link for October 29th still has copyleft. I've already downloaded a couple of screenshots.

Perugia-Shock 29th October - Google cache
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 2:43 am   Post subject: Re: re: Copyleft   

Brian S. wrote:
Michael wrote:
Brian S. wrote:
Michael wrote:
Brian wrote:
I'm thinking about what to do about this. Google cache will run out and it's the only thing preserving the original license on all the stories up until November 1st.

Any bright ideas???


Hi Brian. Wouldn't some screenshots do the trick?


That's the best I can think of at the moment.

Perhaps you could save a screen shot somewhere here of the November 1st page from Google cache with the original license?




Have you got a link to any of those cached pages with 'copyleft' on? I've just had a look at the Google cache and it has 'copyright'.



THE CACHE FOR NOVEMBER 1ST HAS CHANGED.

This link for October 29th still has copyleft. I've already downloaded a couple of screenshots.

Perugia-Shock 29th October - Google cache



Okay Brian, I've taken a full screen shot as that will also take in the cached Pergia Shock address in my address bar and that my browser is loaded on Pergia Shock in my task bar and name of the story (so dateable) on my title bar...so. will this do?:




[align=center][/align]

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Offline indie


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:19 am   Post subject: Re: Was Raf There?   

Michael wrote:
Brian wrote:
I must say that this take is beginning to resonate with me, sometimes. I find myself wondering if Raffaele was with Amanda and Rudy on that night.

If it's true that Amanda was on her own for the cleanup at the cottage early on the 2nd??


Brian, it has always been in my mind that Raf may not have been there for part of the clean-up. It would have been dangerous for Raf to have been seen/discovered at the cottage during daylight...but much safer for Amanda, since she lived there and having rigged Meredith's body to make it clear that she'd been sexually attacked, broke the window and tossed the place, it would have made it appear Amanda had merely stumbled onto the scene (who would consider her a sex attacker?). Once it was daylight and one of the flatmates could come back potentially any time, a male presence (Raf) would have been too dangerous...at least until a later point in the day when the contrived story of Amanda going back to get Raf due to what she'd discovered could be put in play. In fact, whilst Amanda went to the cottage, it's even possible that Raf was busy taking care of other things at 'his' apartment, maybe even doing stuff like dumping the phones. If Amanda went to the cottage on her own in the morning, it doesn't necessarily rule Raffaele out of having taken part in the crime.


Sometimes Michael, do you ever feel like when we use our normal thinking minds to think about their actions after the murder it is mind boggling how many aspects of the crime they were able to address in a fairly extensive way.

ar ))

The clean-up and staging to me demonstrate some heavy duty consciousness of guilt.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:25 am   Post subject: Re: re: Copyleft   

Michael wrote:
Brian S. wrote:
Michael wrote:
Brian S. wrote:
Michael wrote:
Brian wrote:
I'm thinking about what to do about this. Google cache will run out and it's the only thing preserving the original license on all the stories up until November 1st.

Any bright ideas???


Hi Brian. Wouldn't some screenshots do the trick?


That's the best I can think of at the moment.

Perhaps you could save a screen shot somewhere here of the November 1st page from Google cache with the original license?




Have you got a link to any of those cached pages with 'copyleft' on? I've just had a look at the Google cache and it has 'copyright'.



THE CACHE FOR NOVEMBER 1ST HAS CHANGED.

This link for October 29th still has copyleft. I've already downloaded a couple of screenshots.

Perugia-Shock 29th October - Google cache



Okay Brian, I've taken a full screen shot as that will also take in the cached Pergia Shock address in my address bar and that my browser is loaded on Pergia Shock in my task bar and name of the story (so dateable) on my title bar...so. will this do?:




[align=center][/align]


I'm not sure Michael. I'm no lawyer. :lol: But there's no reference to the date of the snapshot etc.

I've saved the whole page as an HTML file which I can open in a browser. I'll have to work out what to do with it or where I can post it and save it. I'll save some more random stories over the time period of Perugia Shock's existence and work out what to do with them later.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:37 am   Post subject: Re: Was Raf There?   

indie wrote:
Michael wrote:
Brian wrote:
I must say that this take is beginning to resonate with me, sometimes. I find myself wondering if Raffaele was with Amanda and Rudy on that night.

If it's true that Amanda was on her own for the cleanup at the cottage early on the 2nd??


Brian, it has always been in my mind that Raf may not have been there for part of the clean-up. It would have been dangerous for Raf to have been seen/discovered at the cottage during daylight...but much safer for Amanda, since she lived there and having rigged Meredith's body to make it clear that she'd been sexually attacked, broke the window and tossed the place, it would have made it appear Amanda had merely stumbled onto the scene (who would consider her a sex attacker?). Once it was daylight and one of the flatmates could come back potentially any time, a male presence (Raf) would have been too dangerous...at least until a later point in the day when the contrived story of Amanda going back to get Raf due to what she'd discovered could be put in play. In fact, whilst Amanda went to the cottage, it's even possible that Raf was busy taking care of other things at 'his' apartment, maybe even doing stuff like dumping the phones. If Amanda went to the cottage on her own in the morning, it doesn't necessarily rule Raffaele out of having taken part in the crime.


Sometimes Michael, do you ever feel like when we use our normal thinking minds to think about their actions after the murder it is mind boggling how many aspects of the crime they were able to address in a fairly extensive way.

ar ))

The clean-up and staging to me demonstrate some heavy duty consciousness of guilt.


Hi Indie :)

It does. But then, we are having to come from a frame of referrence as people that haven't just committed a brutal murder, nor suffering the paranoia after having just done so. When one has done so...the things that would be going through ones mind is...'How might I get caught? What will people think if/when they see me? What clues have I left and how can I get rid of them?....etc,.' and the answers to those questions lead to plans. We aren't having to come from a position of desperate need as they were, if we believe they were involved and it's next to impossible to artificially recreate that situation fully in our own minds. All we can do is try to think in their shoes as much as we possibly can.

The clean-up and staging suggest exactly what you say (and that has also not been lost on the judges) and they are well aware of that, as are their supporters, hence their spending so much energy and time in denial of either of those events occuring, or blaming Rudy for them (or even Rudy and 'other' associates, anyone but Raffaele and Amanda).

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:53 am   Post subject: Re: Perugia Shock Copyleft   

Brian wrote:
I'm not sure Michael. I'm no lawyer. But there's no reference to the date of the snapshot etc.

I've saved the whole page as an HTML file which I can open in a browser. I'll have to work out what to do with it or where I can post it and save it. I'll save some more random stories over the time period of Perugia Shock's existence and work out what to do with them later.


Well, the name of the story of that page 'AMANDA AND RAFFAELE LEFT INSIDE' is dateable and is in the title bar of my browser in that shot.

Saving it as an HTML file is a good idea. You could publish it as a PDF, Tomahawk PDF+ 3.0.1 is a great ap for that (free):

http://www.nativewinds.montana.com/soft ... fplus.html

WinHTTrack Website Copier (free) is also a very good app:

http://www.httrack.com

If you save it in PDF format, zip it (Rar file preferably if it's 'big') and load it up in the 'Media' forum I'll create a Sticky for it, load it in and then delete your post when done. Does that sound like a plan?

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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:59 am   Post subject: Re: Perugia Shock Copyleft   

Michael wrote:
Brian wrote:
I'm not sure Michael. I'm no lawyer. But there's no reference to the date of the snapshot etc.

I've saved the whole page as an HTML file which I can open in a browser. I'll have to work out what to do with it or where I can post it and save it. I'll save some more random stories over the time period of Perugia Shock's existence and work out what to do with them later.


Well, the name of the story of that page 'AMANDA AND RAFFAELE LEFT INSIDE' is dateable and is in the title bar of my browser in that shot.

Saving it as an HTML file is a good idea. You could publish it as a PDF, Tomahawk PDF+ 3.0.1 is a great ap for that (free):

http://www.nativewinds.montana.com/soft ... fplus.html

WinHTTrack Website Copier (free) is also a very good app:

http://www.httrack.com

If you save it in PDF format, zip it (Rar file preferably if it's 'big') and load it up in the 'Media' forum I'll create a Sticky for it, load it in and then delete your post when done. Does that sound like a plan?


Sounds like a plan Michael....but for tomorrow. My bed is calling. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz :lol:
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Offline indie


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 5:28 am   Post subject:    

Brian S.,

You personify the old saying, "leave no stone unturned".
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Offline Bluetit


Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:01 am

Posts: 39

Location: France

PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:25 am   Post subject:    

Brian S. wrote:
Observation about Perugia Shock:

(...)

I'm thinking about what to do about this. Google cache will run out and it's the only thing preserving the original license on all the stories up until November 1st.

Any bright ideas???


Well, I have been saving the Perugia Shock articles (from Nov. 6, 2007) under Word. No pictures, though.
Perhaps that might help ? For instance if some screen shots proved to be difficult to read ...
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Offline Fly by Night


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:08 pm   Post subject: Re: Perugia Shock Copyleft   

Michael wrote:
Brian wrote:
I'm not sure Michael. I'm no lawyer. But there's no reference to the date of the snapshot etc.

I've saved the whole page as an HTML file which I can open in a browser. I'll have to work out what to do with it or where I can post it and save it. I'll save some more random stories over the time period of Perugia Shock's existence and work out what to do with them later.


Well, the name of the story of that page 'AMANDA AND RAFFAELE LEFT INSIDE' is dateable and is in the title bar of my browser in that shot.

Saving it as an HTML file is a good idea. You could publish it as a PDF, Tomahawk PDF+ 3.0.1 is a great ap for that (free):

http://www.nativewinds.montana.com/soft ... fplus.html

WinHTTrack Website Copier (free) is also a very good app:

http://www.httrack.com

If you save it in PDF format, zip it (Rar file preferably if it's 'big') and load it up in the 'Media' forum I'll create a Sticky for it, load it in and then delete your post when done. Does that sound like a plan?


Well, if it was on the web it was captured. All the way back to CW's good-old wild-west Usenet days. There is no hiding on the web. People don't seem to realize how public this resource really is - public in a long-lasting way. A great place to search for archives and track changes over time is via the WayBack Machine. Plug-in a few of your favorite urls and see for yourself at: http://www.archive.org/web/web.php
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:33 pm   Post subject:    

Bluetit wrote:
Brian S. wrote:
Observation about Perugia Shock:

(...)

I'm thinking about what to do about this. Google cache will run out and it's the only thing preserving the original license on all the stories up until November 1st.

Any bright ideas???


Well, I have been saving the Perugia Shock articles (from Nov. 6, 2007) under Word. No pictures, though.
Perhaps that might help ? For instance if some screen shots proved to be difficult to read ...


Bluetit, that's good to know should Frank's archive disappear.

But what concerned me was Frank "apparently" making all his articles copyright. That's the first step on the road to charging for using his text elsewhere. Up until now people have been free to copy Frank's articles here as long as they acknowledged they came from him.

As of the 30th October, copying more than a few words of Franks texts to here would breach his copyright.

Maybe he wants the cook to pay to reproduce some of his stuff in her book OR maybe he is planning a book of his own?? :lol:

Because Frank changed the copyright notice on the front page it "makes it appear that all his articles are protected by copyright".

BUT that's not true. Up until this November he was publishing under "copyleft with attribution". That means that despite the copyright notice on Franks site those earlier stories remain free for anybody to reproduce as long as they attribute them to Frank.

This effort is just an attempt to preserve proof of his original copyleft notice which applies to everything up to the end of this October.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:53 pm   Post subject: Copy rights and wrongs   

FBN wrote:

Quote:
Well, if it was on the web it was captured. All the way back to CW's good-old wild-west Usenet days. There is no hiding on the web. People don't seem to realize how public this resource really is - public in a long-lasting way. A great place to search for archives and track changes over time is via the WayBack Machine. Plug-in a few of your favorite urls and see for yourself at: http://www.archive.org/web/web.php


Anyway, there is no way that a copyright can be applied retroactively to material that was previously not under protection. Otherwise, what would prevent me or anyone else from copying the non-copyrighted material from Frank's blog or any other place, putting a fence around it and claiming it as mine?

Thanks, FBN, for the link to this valuable resource. And I can confirm that CW's entire career on Usenet, Easynet, Anyoldnet is preserved for posterity. Indeed, it took me only a few minutes of digging to discover CW's "real name" and all sorts of other fun facts about him and his "experiments." Not that it matters, of course.

P.S. Does anyone know if Frank's erstwhile editor has any claim on his material? What about the blog entry the erstwhile editor wrote, which appears under her own byline?
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Offline DeathFish 2000


User avatar


Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:53 pm

Posts: 340

Location: UK

PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 5:00 pm   Post subject:    

It could be the brave and beautiful Frank has just discovered after Fast Pete breaking Dempsey's book deal what a thoroughly odious individual she is.

He obviously came under her influence and spell when she was over in Perugia for the pre trial as all of a sudden we saw Dempsey style deletions on his blog and his English improving by leaps and bounds overnight and then allowing Bremner to use his site to get her point across blah blah blah...

A once kind of sarcastic sitting on the fence type blogger all of a sudden turned into a staunch free Amanda campaigner.
Quite remarkable, the change.
He certainly isn't copyrighting his site to prevent comments made on there being published anywhere else.
Seems to me he's pissed that Dempsey hasn't told him about the book she aims to make money from out of Meredith Kerchers brutal and tragic murder.
Ah well Frank, nevermind.
You got taken by people of the same calibre as Amanda Knox.
What did you expect - honesty?

_________________
R.I.P
Meredith Kercher.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 5:34 pm   Post subject: Copyright matters   

DF2K wrote:

Quote:
He certainly isn't copyrighting his site to prevent comments made on there being published anywhere else.


Does anyone know if copyright protection extends to comments as well as blog posts? I would have thought the comments would not be under copyright. They aren't written by the author of the blog, after all.

I think people who are in this kind of thing for profit, even if that is not their initial draw, go where the money is. It's fairly simple, actually.

I only have a problem with these people telling us what the truth is while a matter is pending, rather than quietly doing their work behind the scenes and then writing about it. Getting it wrong just makes matters worse. Candace, for example, often tells her readers that various pieces of evidence have been "thrown out," when in fact this is not the case, as she has been reminded by many people, including the well-informed Yummi.

O8 commented last night that this board is obsessed with Frank and Candace. I think she has misunderstood. Personally, I am obsessed with finding out the truth and anyone who purports to know it is fair game in terms of scrutiny and, where needed, criticism. This is of vital importance in any inquiry. If something turns out to be not true, then that needs to be publicized. It doesn't matter who the author of the error is. For example, O8 claimed awhile back that the kitchen knife was way too small (7 inches) to be the murder weapon, and Kermit took the time to locate the photo showing it was the blade that was 7 inches long after O8 refused to acknowledge her initial error (which she later blamed on Frank, but that's just a weird O8 personality quirk).

There are tons of facts out there about this case, and as far as I'm concerned, they all need to be hunted down and nailed down. The source of the information needs to be considered. That's what the process is about. The latest new witness, who has already been discredited by some, needs to be heard. Maybe he will turn out to be a bust. Some people have already discarded him. And they laugh at anyone who says, wait a minute. Let's hear what he has to say. Frank thinks Toto is a "nut," but Micheli apparantly doesn't. Can I say the jury is out on that one? What the judge says carries some weight, or so you would think.

The washing machine? It has been called a rumor, but I have seen several press reports from different countries and an ILE photo. What was inside the washing machine? Reports vary, but the truth will come out in the wash.

And on and on it goes.
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Offline IM


Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:38 am

Posts: 23

PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 5:53 pm   Post subject:    

just a thought, noted that some have stated that frank posted very quickly the shock on nov.2?
at times " jounalist"
can be a code name for other jobs.
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Offline DLW


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:41 pm

Posts: 623

PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 6:12 pm   Post subject:    

Some last minute preparations by the courts getting ready for the onslaught of media coverage for the trial on Dec. 4. Some of the judges involved, and last minute preparations by the prosecutor and for the defense teams. Doesn’t say if extra time will be needed for the added ‘proof‘.

http://tinyurl.com/5jhxr7
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Offline Tara


User avatar


Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

Posts: 1010

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:49 pm   Post subject: The Stranger   

The Machine wrote:
Charles Mudede has a short piece about the new witness on The Stranger. Here's the link:

CHARLES MUDEDE THE STRANGER

I really liked his article The Education of Amanda Knox:

http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=504236

EDIT: Michael, shortened and BB coded url


Hi TM! :)

Just catching up and saw your link - thanks! I've always liked Charles Mudede and I missed this. Also of interest is the active comments section - here's one that was apparently deleted by the IW and quite informative:

Posted by "Candy is bad for you"

Quote:
Comment #27: More proof that Candace Dempsey over at her PI hosted blog is streamlining her comments section to suit her own interests; she deletes any comment that questions other blogs and message boards, and comments that don't favor Amanda Knox's innocence. It's biased, and as I said above, a sham.

She just deleted this well thought out post in response to one of hers:

"#218893
Posted by Polly Wogg at 11/19/08 9:17 a.m.
Here are some resposes to Candace's post #218658:



Candace: Only for those who enjoy inter-blog gossip… forgive me my immaturity, I cannot resist. I promise I will not do this often.

The Shadow: You are forgiven for your immaturity. After all, you cannot resist



Candace: Just when you think that the House of Darkness can't get any darker, a friend just sent the latest from that increasingly sinister destination.

The Shadow: Is the House of Darkness any relation to the Ministry of Misinformation? Just wondering. That's so funny about your friend sending you the latest from there. That's what friends are for, right?



Candace: Yesterday they spammed my blog and Frank's when they found out about my book deal. Now they've announced two bold new initiatives. Are they going to send an investigative reporter to Perugia to find out more about the crime? No.

The Shadow: Wait a minute. Who is this "they" you refer to? How do you know who "they" are? Does this mean you can "see" who posts on your blog? Wow! 1984 and all that.
As for sending someone to Perugia, or even having someone there, what in the world would you know about it? Do you know who posts on other boards and blogs too? Do you know where they live? Do you know what they do?


Candace: They are going to do a Frog-y watch on my blog. They are going to repost any comment of his that I delete.

The Shadow: Oh my God! They're going to do what? Your friend doesn't have it quite right. Actually, that was Michael's idea. You got a problem with that? The fact is, many posters the world over enjoy Frog-y's comments and would like to save them from your erratic deletion habits. If you feel there's something wrong with this, then why don't you stop deleting his comments so that everyone is free to make of them what they will? Or are you afraid that is just what they will do?


Candace: Now why would they do this if Frog-y doesn't come from there? And how could they possibly have the deleted posts? Who could provide them? They always say they don't read my blog.

The Shadow: No, dear, once again your friend has got it wrong. "They" don't always say "they" don't read your blog. In fact, some of "them" seem to find it unintentionally funny, and "they" enjoy it now that you have three interesting posters, one of whom you keep deleting. Your friend who sent you the latest news needs to learn to read a little more carefully and report back more accurately. As for your question why would anyone do this if Frog-y didn't come from "there," what in the world does that mean? Where is "there"? Did no one tell you that in cyberspace, as Gertrude Stein famously remarked of her hometown (Oakland, California), there is no there there?

Using your logic, we would have to say that Frog-y is from your blog, since that is the only place he posts. So he comes from "there" -- but where is there?

I began copying all of Frog-y's posts when I noticed how often you deleted them or threatened to. It's pretty easy; I just stop by once a day and copy all of his posts. True, maybe I have missed some because I don't stop by often enough and you have been known to delete first and ask questions later.

Why do you delete his posts, by the way? The obvious answer is because you can. And sometimes the obvious answer is the right one. After all, he asks the really good questions and makes the really good points, which seems to bug the heck out of you. All in all, Frog-y has been pretty good-natured about the whole thing. I think his fan base is expanding as a result. Now if I could only figure out where "there" was, I would drive on over and tell him so in person. I might even get his autograph.



Candace: They are going to try to thwart the copyright notice on Frank's blog, because evidently he didn't copyright his first posts. He now has posted a blanket copyright on the whole site, but they don't think this is binding. So they are going to do screenshots of his cache files and then ... well, they don't say. And I can never follow their tortured logic.

The Shadow: There you go again. Who is this "they"? I read the board and noticed that two posters are trying to figure out a way to show that all of the posts through October 2008 were not published under copyright. Anyway, their logic is pretty easy to follow, so maybe you need a friend with a little more on the ball. I've got an even better idea, though. Since you're an investigative reporter, you could go and have a look at the board yourself.

You don't even need to sign up. There are unregistered guests online all the time and nobody bothers them or asks for ID or anything. You could be, like, totally clandestine. Like Harriet the Spy. How cool is that?! If you don't know where the board "is," just send an email to Frog-y. He gets around cyberspace pretty well, I hear. Or O8. She seems to know everything.

Who wouldn't want to visit the House of Darkness at least once?



Candace: They are also claiming Frank started his blog before Meredith was murdered. So I guess he has psychic powers too.

The Shadow: Have you ever been diagnosed as clinically paranoid? For the last time, who is this "they"? But more importantly, your friend really needs to get her facts straight or stop smoking that wacky weed. Nowhere in the House of Darkness have I seen it written that Frank started his blog before Meredith was murdered. This is an old rumor that surfaced on an Italian blog, and was mentioned by a delightful HoD poster who is at least trilingual. Again, intrepid investigative reporter that you are, maybe you could hunt down that blog, do a quick google translation of the rumor and subsequent discussion, and bring it back to your readers.

You seem not to understand that posters on the board often talk about things that are rumored. And here's the really freaky thing: it doesn't mean they believe them! This is an activity known as speculation. I think your friend is not reading our board very carefully. You either need some new friends or you need to go over there yourself and have a look. Most investigative reporters do that before they go public. But I guess you cannot help it. When the urge to vent strikes, you just go for it, don't you? Anyway, I think you should check these things out first, because otherwise you look like someone who doesn't know what heck they're talking about.



Candace: This is why Meredith's hometown newspaper called them "conspiracy theorists." And why they take that as a compliment.

The Shadow: I'm beginning to see a pattern to your thought processes. What's really interesting about this coverage by the Croydon Guardian is that it has garnered a lot of attention for another blog, a non-profit blog devoted to true justice for Meredith Kercher. I would love to provide a link, but you know how it is with you and links!

In fact, I would love to hang out "here" for awhile, but I gotta get back to the House of Darkness. Anyone who wants to know "where" it is can just ask Candace. And Candace can ask her friend. Make sure you get good directions, however. There's an address, of course, but Candace can't post it. Something about copyright!

Respectfully Submitted
The Shadow

Copyright@PollyWogg 2008"


Posted by Candy is bad for you on November 19, 2008 at 10:02 AM
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:45 pm   Post subject:    

Hi Tara,

You can see from the dialogue between Candace Dempsey and the Shadow how Candace twists the truth. Her desperate defence blog is openly discussed on here and the TJMK website. "We" haven't claimed that we never read her blog. Some members have stated that they don't post there anymore. However, she claimed that she was in "blog rehab" and didn't read this board when she clearly did.

I liked the way Candace Dempsey formally announced her book deal to the handful of posters on her blog...a couple of hours after she had been rumbled by Fast Pete on the TJMK site. She had so much "respect" for her readers that she refused to confirm the book deal at first and simply ignored or deleted all questions about it before closing her comments sections in yet another hissy fit. She only admitted that she had a book deal when she had no other choice, just like she had to admit that she knew Madison Paxton from the Free Amanda and Raffaele facebook group.

I'm sure that she will have no choice but to admit she knows Edda Mellas at some point in the future. Until then she'll continue to ignore or delete all questions about their relationship.

I really hope Charles Mudede writes more about the case.

Fast Pete has a new piece about Meredith's London up on the TJMK site:

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php


Last edited by The Machine on Thu Nov 20, 2008 12:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Tara


User avatar


Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

Posts: 1010

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 9:44 pm   Post subject: CORRIERE DELL'UMBRIA Article   

Google translation is confusing here. Is this saying that the attorneys for the defense are getting a bit anxious for the prosecutor's documents for trial? Maybe the trial could suffer a setback date?

Also, they are still considering a broadcast of the trial? Help!!

Original Italian:
http://www.corrieredellumbria.it/news.asp?id=29

Google Translation:
GOOGLE TRANSLATION
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Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:39 pm   Post subject: Re: Trial Date   

Hi Tara,

Yummi did a translation....I posted it up here: COURT OF ASSIZE TRIAL, 4TH DEC 2008, last entry in the post.

FBN -

Hi FBN :) Thanks for the great link!

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Tara


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Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

Posts: 1010

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:47 pm   Post subject: Thanks!   

Thanks Michael! :D
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Offline Michael

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User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:43 pm   Post subject: Re: Copyright   

Brian S. wrote:
Bluetit wrote:
Brian S. wrote:
Observation about Perugia Shock:

(...)

I'm thinking about what to do about this. Google cache will run out and it's the only thing preserving the original license on all the stories up until November 1st.

Any bright ideas???


Well, I have been saving the Perugia Shock articles (from Nov. 6, 2007) under Word. No pictures, though.
Perhaps that might help ? For instance if some screen shots proved to be difficult to read ...


Bluetit, that's good to know should Frank's archive disappear.

But what concerned me was Frank "apparently" making all his articles copyright. That's the first step on the road to charging for using his text elsewhere. Up until now people have been free to copy Frank's articles here as long as they acknowledged they came from him.

As of the 30th October, copying more than a few words of Franks texts to here would breach his copyright.

Maybe he wants the cook to pay to reproduce some of his stuff in her book OR maybe he is planning a book of his own?? :lol:

Because Frank changed the copyright notice on the front page it "makes it appear that all his articles are protected by copyright".

BUT that's not true. Up until this November he was publishing under "copyleft with attribution". That means that despite the copyright notice on Franks site those earlier stories remain free for anybody to reproduce as long as they attribute them to Frank.

This effort is just an attempt to preserve proof of his original copyleft notice which applies to everything up to the end of this October.


Here's the score:


Electronic Frontier Foundation wrote:
Bloggers' FAQ - Intellectual Property

The Bloggers' FAQ on Intellectual Property addresses issues that arise when you publish material created by others on your blog.

Questions About Copyright

I found something interesting on someone else's blog. May I quote it?

Yes. Short quotations will usually be fair use, not copyright infringement. The Copyright Act says that "fair use...for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright." So if you are commenting on or criticizing an item someone else has posted, you have a fair use right to quote. The law favors "transformative" uses — commentary, either praise or criticism, is better than straight copying — but courts have said that even putting a piece of an existing work into a new context (such as a thumbnail in an image search engine) counts as "transformative." The blog's author might also have granted you even more generous rights through a Creative Commons license, so you should check for that as well.

What is fair use?

There are no hard and fast rules for fair use (and anyone who tells you that a set number of words or percentage of a work is "fair" is talking about guidelines, not the law). The Copyright Act sets out four factors for courts to look at (17 U.S.C. § 107):

•The purpose and character of the use. Transformative uses are favored over mere copying. Non-commercial uses are also more likely fair.
•The nature of the copyrighted work. Is the original factual in nature or fiction? Published or unpublished? Creative and unpublished works get more protection under copyright, while using factual material is more often fair use.
•The amount and substantiality of the portion used. Copying nearly all of a work, or copying its "heart" is less likely to be fair.
•The effect on the market or potential market. This factor is often held to be the most important in the analysis, and it applies even if the original is given away for free. If you use the copied work in a way that substitutes for the original in the market, it's unlikely to be a fair use; uses that serve a different audience or purpose are more likely fair. Linking to the original may also help to diminish the substitution effect. Note that criticism or parody that has the side effect of reducing a market may be fair because of its transformative character. In other words, if your criticism of a product is so powerful that people stop buying the product, that doesn't count as having an "effect on the market for the work" under copyright law.


ELECTRONIC FRONTIER FOUNDATION

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline Tara


User avatar


Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

Posts: 1010

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:43 am   Post subject: Cages   

Does anyone know when Knox and Sollecito go to trial, will they be housed in the same cage? If Rudy is brought in as a witness, I would assume he will also be housed in a cage? How do they confer with their legal team? Are the legal teams positioned next to their defendant's cage? Does anyone have a picture of the courtroom? Sorry if I missed this info!

Just curious and trying to picture the scenario. Thanks!
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Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 3:27 am   Post subject: Re: Cages   

Tara wrote:
Does anyone know when Knox and Sollecito go to trial, will they be housed in the same cage? If Rudy is brought in as a witness, I would assume he will also be housed in a cage? How do they confer with their legal team? Are the legal teams positioned next to their defendant's cage? Does anyone have a picture of the courtroom? Sorry if I missed this info!

Just curious and trying to picture the scenario. Thanks!


Hi Tara,

From what I've read, prisoners on trial are put in the cage if they are considered a danger to those gathered in the court. Also, what is certain, is more then one prisoner will not go into that cage together...only one can go in it.

I don't have a picture of the courtroom/cage...the only cage I have a pic of is Raffaele's jail cell.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline DeathFish 2000


User avatar


Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:53 pm

Posts: 340

Location: UK

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 3:49 am   Post subject:    

I remember an image I saw regarding this case.
Maybe it was a temporary thing but it was a courtroom (empty, no people in there) and it was just a small type room but there was a cell type deal there with bars from the floor to the ceiling in the courtroom itself.

(I'm getting all confused now and can't remember anything, I want to go shopping)

Our courts in the UK these days have bullet proof areas as such which is different to the Italian M.O.
I don't know but to my knowledge Knox and her accomplice have never been in one of these cells when appearing in front of the Italian judiciary.
I do not know why this is the case but anyway I am thankful that Knox cannot get near any of my kids all the same.
The Italian justice system is working so I salute it.

_________________
R.I.P
Meredith Kercher.
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Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 4:00 am   Post subject: Keys   

Brian -

I think you were searching for reports on Meredith's keys being found in Amanda's room?



Frank wrote:
Wednesday, November 14, 2007

Waiting for evidences


Meredith had the keys of the apartment below and those keys have been found in Amanda's room.


PERUGIA SHOCK

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline Tara


User avatar


Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

Posts: 1010

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 4:02 am   Post subject: OT   

OT OT OT

DeathFish 2000,

This, "(I'm getting all confused now and can't remember anything, I want to go shopping)" was hilarious !! :lol:
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Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 4:27 am   Post subject: Heel Print   

Hi,

Just been looking at one of the footprint photos of the bathmat Frog-y posted on the Cook's. I clearly see a bloody 'heel' print off the mat on the bathroom floor...does anyone concur? The heel print lines up perfectly with the print on the mat...that means that was the position of the mat when it was made (I saw 08 elsewhere recently argue the mat may have been elsewhere in the cottage when it was made). So, this again begs the question...where is the preceeding print/s to that step?



[align=center][/align]

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:41 am   Post subject: Re: Keys   

Michael wrote:
Brian -

I think you were searching for reports on Meredith's keys being found in Amanda's room?



Frank wrote:
Wednesday, November 14, 2007

Waiting for evidences


Meredith had the keys of the apartment below and those keys have been found in Amanda's room.


PERUGIA SHOCK



Michael,

I did find that report from Frank, it's in one of my posts above.

BUT I then surmised he must have gotten that information from Matteini's report of the 9th November. Unfortunately that proved not to be the case. The question has become:

From where did Frank get his information?

There is no reference in the UK press. I'm slowly trawling through the Italian media reports which appeared prior to Frank's revelation. No luck yet. Did his information come from the prosecutor's office???


Last edited by Brian S. on Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:42 am   Post subject: Re: Copyright   

Michael wrote:
Brian S. wrote:
Bluetit wrote:
Brian S. wrote:
Observation about Perugia Shock:

(...)

I'm thinking about what to do about this. Google cache will run out and it's the only thing preserving the original license on all the stories up until November 1st.

Any bright ideas???


Well, I have been saving the Perugia Shock articles (from Nov. 6, 2007) under Word. No pictures, though.
Perhaps that might help ? For instance if some screen shots proved to be difficult to read ...


Bluetit, that's good to know should Frank's archive disappear.

But what concerned me was Frank "apparently" making all his articles copyright. That's the first step on the road to charging for using his text elsewhere. Up until now people have been free to copy Frank's articles here as long as they acknowledged they came from him.

As of the 30th October, copying more than a few words of Franks texts to here would breach his copyright.

Maybe he wants the cook to pay to reproduce some of his stuff in her book OR maybe he is planning a book of his own?? :lol:

Because Frank changed the copyright notice on the front page it "makes it appear that all his articles are protected by copyright".

BUT that's not true. Up until this November he was publishing under "copyleft with attribution". That means that despite the copyright notice on Franks site those earlier stories remain free for anybody to reproduce as long as they attribute them to Frank.

This effort is just an attempt to preserve proof of his original copyleft notice which applies to everything up to the end of this October.


Here's the score:


Electronic Frontier Foundation wrote:
Bloggers' FAQ - Intellectual Property

The Bloggers' FAQ on Intellectual Property addresses issues that arise when you publish material created by others on your blog.

Questions About Copyright

I found something interesting on someone else's blog. May I quote it?

Yes. Short quotations will usually be fair use, not copyright infringement. The Copyright Act says that "fair use...for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright." So if you are commenting on or criticizing an item someone else has posted, you have a fair use right to quote. The law favors "transformative" uses — commentary, either praise or criticism, is better than straight copying — but courts have said that even putting a piece of an existing work into a new context (such as a thumbnail in an image search engine) counts as "transformative." The blog's author might also have granted you even more generous rights through a Creative Commons license, so you should check for that as well.

What is fair use?

There are no hard and fast rules for fair use (and anyone who tells you that a set number of words or percentage of a work is "fair" is talking about guidelines, not the law). The Copyright Act sets out four factors for courts to look at (17 U.S.C. § 107):

•The purpose and character of the use. Transformative uses are favored over mere copying. Non-commercial uses are also more likely fair.
•The nature of the copyrighted work. Is the original factual in nature or fiction? Published or unpublished? Creative and unpublished works get more protection under copyright, while using factual material is more often fair use.
•The amount and substantiality of the portion used. Copying nearly all of a work, or copying its "heart" is less likely to be fair.
•The effect on the market or potential market. This factor is often held to be the most important in the analysis, and it applies even if the original is given away for free. If you use the copied work in a way that substitutes for the original in the market, it's unlikely to be a fair use; uses that serve a different audience or purpose are more likely fair. Linking to the original may also help to diminish the substitution effect. Note that criticism or parody that has the side effect of reducing a market may be fair because of its transformative character. In other words, if your criticism of a product is so powerful that people stop buying the product, that doesn't count as having an "effect on the market for the work" under copyright law.


ELECTRONIC FRONTIER FOUNDATION



More on the Creative Commons License under which Frank originally published.

The whole idea of non-copyright material began with software back in the 70's and 80's. Many computer companies use copyright to protect their software. Some people realised it then became a moot point who owned your computer and any information it contained. Was it you or was it the company who wrote the software which allowed you to access that information?

This gave rise to Richard Stallman writing the GPL (General Public License). Software written under the GPL is free to use and free to copy. The Linux operating system is probably the most famous for using it. Google runs on Linux. But it's everywhere. Open Office is released under the GPL. The World Wide Web works thanks to the GPL. The software which enables those three magic letters "www" to work when you type them in at the top of your browser was developed by CERN to connect their networks and later released to the world under the GPL.

CERN - Where the Web was born.


This lead to other people thinking that the same rules could be applied to other creative arts.
The most obvious being writing and music. The Creative Commons Licence is the result.

Creative Commons licenses enable copyright holders to grant some or all of their rights to the public while retaining others through a variety of licensing and contract schemes including dedication to the public domain or open content licensing terms. The intention is to avoid the problems current copyright laws create for the sharing of information.

The project provides several free licenses that copyright owners can use when releasing their works on the Web....

The following describes each of the six main licenses offered when you choose to publish your work with creative commons license.

Attribution Non-commercial No Derivatives (by-nc-nd) This license is the most restrictive of the six main licenses, allowing redistribution. This license is often called the “free advertising” license because it allows others to download your works and share them with others as long as they mention you and link back to you, but they can’t change them in any way or use them commercially.

Attribution Non-commercial Share Alike (by-nc-sa) This license lets others remix, tweak, and build upon your work non-commercially, as long as they credit you and license their new creations under the identical terms. Others can download and redistribute your work just like the by-nc-nd license, but they can also translate, make remixes, and produce new stories based on your work. All new work based on yours will carry the same license, so any derivatives will also be non-commercial in nature.

Attribution Non-commercial (by-nc) This license lets others remix, tweak, and build upon your work non-commercially, and although their new works must also acknowledge you and be non-commercial, they don’t have to license their derivative works on the same terms.

Attribution No Derivatives (by-nd) This license allows for redistribution, commercial and non-commercial, as long as it is passed along unchanged and in whole, with credit to you.

Attribution Share Alike (by-sa) This license lets others remix, tweak, and build upon your work even for commercial reasons, as long as they credit you and license their new creations under the identical terms. This license is often compared to open source software licenses. All new works based on yours will carry the same license, so any derivatives will also allow commercial use.

Attribution (by) This license lets others distribute, remix, tweak, and build upon your work, even commercially, as long as they credit you for the original creation. This is the most accommodating of licenses offered, in terms of what others can do with your works licensed under Attribution.....

The original non-localized Creative Commons licenses were written with the U.S. legal system in mind, so the wording could be incompatible within different local legislations and render the licenses unenforceable in various jurisdictions. To address this issue, Creative Commons International has started to port the various licenses to accommodate local copyright and private law. As of February 2008, there are 43 jurisdiction-specific licenses, with 8 other jurisdictions in drafting process, and more countries joining the worldwide project.


Creative Commons Licence - Wikipedia



Attribution (by) is what Frank was using until the end of October, thus:

others may distribute, remix, tweak, and build upon his work, even commercially, as long as they credit him for the original creation. This is the most accommodating of licenses offered, in terms of what others can do with his works licensed under Attribution.



These days even commercial entitities will use the CCL if it suits them. "Viral marketing" has to be the most obvious. The best way to get your message out is to allow other people to copy and publish it.

I suspect that Frank used the CCL (otherwise known as copyleft) so that people could freely copy his articles as long as they attributed it to him (probably with a link). It's a good way to make your site popular with people who might be interested in what you have to say.


To partially answer a query by Skep:

Comments are usually considered "owned" by the people who make them.

I'm not sure whether Frank's copyleft license applied to your article since he didn't write it.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:18 pm   Post subject:    

Brian quotes Frank:
"Meredith had the keys of the apartment below and those keys have been found in Amanda's room."

The defense will argue that the keys have suffered a place contamination.
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:53 pm

Posts: 340

Location: UK

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:51 pm   Post subject: SANDWICH ANYONE?   

Pass the sick bucket:

This from Nick Pisa on SKY: http://tinyurl.com/5pzn7t


"We have never spoken to them (the Kercher family) because we are waiting for Amanda to be freed so she can go to them and express her sorrow."
Edda Mellas.

"Its hard to say if our situation is worse or not than their (the Kercher family's) one"
Edda Mellas on her daughter facing murder charges over Meredith .



It is becoming more and more apparent to me how a murderous personality can develop.
I have thought since day one that Edda Mellas is not quite the full shilling and this article proves it beyond any doubt for me.
I don't think Amanda Knox was nursing Meredith or feeding her sandwiches on the night she died somehow.
This is all part of the sick campaign of lies to paint Amanda Knox as some sort of Mother Theresa type figure.

_________________
R.I.P
Meredith Kercher.


Last edited by DeathFish 2000 on Thu Nov 20, 2008 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 3:17 pm   Post subject:    

It's not right to attack the parents, IMHO.
There is nothing wrong in their not holding guilty their children and providing full support to them.
That's only natural.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 3:20 pm   Post subject: Feet and keys   

Brian wrote:

Quote:
Michael,
I did find that report from Frank, it's in one of my posts above.
BUT I then surmised he must have gotten that information from Matteini's report of the 9th November. Unfortunately that proved not to be the case. The question has become:
From where did Frank get his information?
There is no reference in the UK press. I'm slowly trawling through the Italian media reports which appeared prior to Frank's revelation. No luck yet. Did his information come from the prosecutor's office???


It may be obvious, but since the question was about Meredith's keys, note that the information concerns the keys to the downstairs flat, not Meredith's keys. Also, didn't we learn some time ago that a bare foot print compatible with Meredith's was found somewhere outside of her room? Was it in Filomena's room, in Amanda's or in the hall?

As for where Frank got his information, now that we know he's a former reporter on theater, film, cycling and crime, maybe he used an old contact in the police department. Maybe he already had an in with the prosecutor, or maybe he just read it in the regional paper.
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:53 pm

Posts: 340

Location: UK

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 3:30 pm   Post subject:    

bolint wrote:
It's not right to attack the parents, IMHO.
There is nothing wrong in their not holding guilty their children and providing full support to them.
That's only natural.


Well you would think that wouldn't you bolint?
There are some responsible parents out there that have turned their kids in to the police when they have found drugs for instance, or when their conscience gets the better of them when they have discovered their kids are guilty of a murder or other horrible crime.
It's not right to attack someone with a knife either bolint.
If the Mellas/Knox family had any shred of decency they would have at least at some point contacted the family of Meredith Kercher to offer their condolencies on the tragic death of their daughter.
This should happen irrespective of if their daughter (Knox) is guilty or not.
They both share something, they both have kids of university age away from home and sharing the same house together.
It is disrespectful to say the very least.
Furthermore, I think it is disgusting for Edda Mellas (the mother of the prime murder suspect) to say "Its hard to say if our situation is worse or not than their (the Kercher family's) one"
It is a statement well worthy to "attack".

_________________
R.I.P
Meredith Kercher.
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:53 pm

Posts: 340

Location: UK

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 4:13 pm   Post subject:    

Speaking about the Amanda defence fund website, the Kercher family's lawyer Francesco Maresca said: "I think we can see why this has been released.

"The trial is just about to start and the family want to present Knox as an innocent figure.

"That is now up to the judge and the court to decide - if she wants to express her sorrow to Meredith's family then she will have to wait a very, very long time."

Well said Francesco.

_________________
R.I.P
Meredith Kercher.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 4:17 pm   Post subject:    

skep wrote:
Also, didn't we learn some time ago that a bare foot print compatible with Meredith's was found somewhere outside of her room? Was it in Filomena's room, in Amanda's or in the hall?


I believe it was Meredith's footprint which was found on the postcard which had moved from her room and was found on the floor in Filomena's room. Nearby was an area of the floor which had been cleaned with bleach. There was a suggestion that maybe the struggle had moved to that area and the postcard was stuck to the bottom of Meredith's foot.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 4:37 pm   Post subject:    

More on Frank's attempted copyright changes.

It's been an interesting day or so. I've got copies of everything I think it makes sense to have or what was left available after cache renewal.

Here's what I think happened:

The first changes appear to have been made on the 5th November. Frank made several stories copyright that day and several more up until the 9th November. These show as renewed cached items with a copyright notice but they still have the last two names left on the notice. This applies to several stories from around the year.

ISTM that Frank was selective when he caused the cache to be renewed on certain stories.

The real burst came on the 13th, 15th and 16th November when he dropped the last two names from his new copyright notice and caused perhaps two thirds of his old stories to be recached on those three days.

I don't think it's any co-incidence that Anne Bremner's story appeared on the 5th November with a copyright notice attached to it. Frank had obviously spoken to her in the preceeding days. Frank only took action to make his stories copyright this month. Any story from before did not have copyright protection although it will say it has and those old stories which have been recached, mainly on 13th, 15th and 16th November, don't have a version with the old copyleft notice on them. But they were published copyleft and everbody knows it.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:08 pm   Post subject:    

"Posted by Candace Dempsey at 11/20/08 10:31 a.m.

Re the latest faux controversy: My sources say Edda Mellas never gave an interview to Oggi, an Italian magazine"


Though it is obviously silly to contradict the "Trusted Sources", the fresh Oggi does contain an interview with Amanda"s mother.

page 54
"La madre di Amanda Knox racconta la sua «bambina»,
di Elisa Teja"


I haven't read it, so it remains to be checked:


"and never uttered the following Oggi quote attributed to her in today's Skye news article:

"It's hard to say if our situation is worse or not than their (the Kercher family's) one."
Edda Mellas on her daughter facing murder charges over Meredith."
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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Location: UK

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:17 pm   Post subject:    

Oh...
It can't have happened then if Dempsey or any of the Knox defence camp say so.

We will have to wait and see if Nick Pisa or Sky News will be sued for slander and libel.

_________________
R.I.P
Meredith Kercher.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:30 pm   Post subject:    

"There are some responsible parents out there that have turned their kids in to the police when they have found drugs for instance, or when their conscience gets the better of them when they have discovered their kids are guilty of a murder or other horrible crime."


Yes, indeed. "When they have found" and "when they have discovered", as you say.
In this case they haven't found or discovered.

"It's not right to attack someone with a knife either bolint."
No contest.

"If the Mellas/Knox family had any shred of decency they would have at least at some point contacted the family of Meredith Kercher to offer their condolencies on the tragic death of their daughter."

If their daughter had not been accused or indicted.
Would the Kerchers accept any contact at this point?
What would they say now? Apology? ("Look! Even her parents think she is guilty") Condolencies? ("Look! The hypocrytes")
At this pont they have no rational option, I think.

As for Amanda, yes, she should have explained her innocence (if it exists), instead, she hid behind lawyers.
But her parents?
They should be the last to accept a set of evidence against their daughter.


"Furthermore, I think it is disgusting for Edda Mellas (the mother of the prime murder suspect) to say "Its hard to say if our situation is worse or not than their (the Kercher family's) one"
It is a statement well worthy to "attack"."

It depends on the faith in the innocence of their daughter.
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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Location: UK

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:38 pm   Post subject:    

bolint,
You're kidding right?
I wonder where you came from and who you support here.
I think you should go to the cooks blog where you will feel more at home.
I am not going to discuss anything with you for this reason.

_________________
R.I.P
Meredith Kercher.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:44 pm   Post subject:    

"who you support here. "

The truth.

"I think you should go to the cooks blog where you will feel more at home."

I dont think so.
See above.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:58 pm   Post subject: Truth or consequences   

DF2K and Bolint:

I think you can agree to disagree on that point.
Here's what I think, for what it's worth:

The Knox/Mellas family hired a PR firm very, very quickly, and that PR firm has been very, very active and aggressive.

The Knox/Mellas family has made itself available to media perceived as friendly and continues to do so. Some might even say that the PR firm has courted the media, perhaps made some deals along the way. I don't know if this is true, but it could be.

The Knox/Mellas family has by now a fairly long list of complaints about being misquoted. It seems that when something doesn't fly, they say they were misquoted or never said that. Remember the "fake interview" with Méo Ponti? The journalist who did the interview has notes and possibly transcripts, if it were to come to that.

As for whether or not the Knox/Mellas family should be proclaiming their daughter's innocence via the media, and whether or not it is their fault that their daughter is a suspect, I think that is a very tricky question. I would hate to be blamed for some of the things members of my family have done just because I am related to them. An incident as tragic and brutal as this one has a trickle-down effect on family and friends of the accused. It is natural to go into denial or in all lucidity to defend your offspring. I have seen this happen in my own family. In the two personal cases I can think of, my mother was in total denial both times and stayed there for a long time. In fact, she's still there to some degree.

Back to the initial observation: what is somewhat blameworthy in my opinion is the way in which the Knox/Mellas family has gone about defending their daughter. They are partly responsible, in my view, for the erasure of Meredith Kercher. Why was her name not mentioned once in the recent MSNBC piece? Personally, I think the PR firm is behind that one, but why not just say no.

I also think that Edda Mellas has an unfortunate habit of stepping in it whenever she speaks. She says things like this. Did she say this particular thing? My guess is that we will never know. We'll never know unless the Knox/Mellas family sues Oggi and I bet they won't. They have a system in place that kicks in and issues denials whenever needed. They hope it sticks, and figure the more it is repeated the more plausible it becomes.

If they have advised their daughter to remain silent regardless of what she knows, then they are blameworthy to some extent. If they are saying things they know to be false, then they are too.

I just wonder what happens to the truth? It becomes harder by the minute to discern. And no matter who is responsible, this is a disservice to Meredith and her family.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:02 pm   Post subject: No need to argue   

Bolint wrote:

Quote:
"who you support here. "

The truth.

"I think you should go to the cooks blog where you will feel more at home."

I dont think so.
See above.


Bolint is as interested in the truth as anyone here, and is welcome to post on our board. I for one have enjoyed his/her thought-provoking posts. The only way to get to the truth is to test assumptions and see which ones resist.

DF2K, you are also welcome here.
There is room for everyone.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:21 pm   Post subject: Copycat?   

Brian wrote:

Quote:
I don't think it's any co-incidence that Anne Bremner's story appeared on the 5th November with a copyright notice attached to it. Frank had obviously spoken to her in the preceeding days. Frank only took action to make his stories copyright this month. Any story from before did not have copyright protection although it will say it has and those old stories which have been recached, mainly on 13th, 15th and 16th November, don't have a version with the old copyleft notice on them. But they were published copyleft and everybody knows it.


Don't forget, Brian, that in the comments section of that particular entry, Frank suddenly blurted out (why I don't remember) that his blog was "American." Then he got busy with the copyrights. Is he trying to protect himself from lawsuits in Italy? Perhaps he was advised to do this by an American attorney.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:41 pm   Post subject: Copywrong   

This from Frank about copyright:

Frank wrote:
My god, Brian, my integrity...
First of all everything someone publishes online is his own property even if there's not a sign for that.
In my case the '©' has always been present.
Just, for not to be to strict, besides the '©' there was: 'copyleft upon attribution'.
= 'The website is copywritten but if you want to copy and publish something you can do it if you quote author and website'.

Since I noticed that it wasn't clear I left only the '(c)' with full copyright but the principle remains the same.

November 20, 2008 1:02 PM



PERUGIA SHOCK

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:05 pm   Post subject: Neutrality   

Bolint wrote:

Quote:
"Posted by Candace Dempsey at 11/20/08 10:31 a.m.
Re the latest faux controversy: My sources say Edda Mellas never gave an interview to Oggi, an Italian magazine"
Though it is obviously silly to contradict the "Trusted Sources", the fresh Oggi does contain an interview with Amanda"s mother.
page 54
"La madre di Amanda Knox racconta la sua «bambina»,
di Elisa Teja"
I haven't read it, so it remains to be checked:
"and never uttered the following Oggi quote attributed to her in today's Skye news article:
"It's hard to say if our situation is worse or not than their (the Kercher family's) one."
Edda Mellas on her daughter facing murder charges over Meredith."


The problem I have with this, if it isn't abundantly clear, is the source of this denial. Does this come from the family, from the PR firm, from Edda Mellas herself? If so, it is suspect. Note that I did not say false. But there is a pattern of denial here when it comes to the press that is troubling. And when the person making the denial is the one with access to the family who is writing a book, it becomes problematic. CD says she is not being paid by the PR firm, and I believe her. But she comes very close to functioning as an unpaid press organ for the family.

I see a conflict here. CD is not a neutral source of information and is not perceived as one either.

Just examine the deletions of comments deemed unacceptable with respect to Knox and compare with comments left to stand (except when she is hounded by her own posters) about Rudy Guede and more recently, the Kercher family. Except, of course, the deletions have been stricken from the record so they can no longer be examined.

Incidentally, the most offensive comments about the Kerchers made by Kelly 13 were finally and very quietly removed. And when frog-y made reference to the fact that they had been removed, his comment was deleted -- ostensibly because it contained one of the offending statements. But in fact, if you look at the string where Kelly's more recent offensive comments were made, the quoted references to those comments made by the two posters who disagreed, are still standing. So that can't be the real reason frog-y's post was deleted.

And it sure makes for a tangled web.
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Offline Tara


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Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:51 pm   Post subject: KOMO 4 NEWS REPORT (ABC) IN SEATTLE   

Seattle's KOMO 4 News (ABC) and their report of the Amanda Knox Defense Fund Website.

It's interesting to read the comments...

FAMILY SEEKS FINANCIAL HELP

They are also reporting about Edda's interview with Oggi.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:26 am   Post subject: Re: Copywrong   

Michael wrote:
This from Frank about copyright:

Frank wrote:
My god, Brian, my integrity...
First of all everything someone publishes online is his own property even if there's not a sign for that.
In my case the '©' has always been present.
Just, for not to be to strict, besides the '©' there was: 'copyleft upon attribution'.
= 'The website is copywritten but if you want to copy and publish something you can do it if you quote author and website'.

Since I noticed that it wasn't clear I left only the '(c)' with full copyright but the principle remains the same.

November 20, 2008 1:02 PM



PERUGIA SHOCK



My reply to Frank:


Brian S. said...

Thank you for an honest answer Frank.

First of all, I should tell you that I have no intention of breaching your copyright. I don't write books or blogs on the internet.

But I would advise you to check with your lawyer.

I believe that anyone who wanted to, would be free to write a book for commercial purposes containing nothing but you're articles prior to November, in full, as long as they attributed those words to you.

If you wanted to protect your words from commercial use by others, you should have used one of the other copyleft licenses which explicitly prevent that.

Copyleft with attribution is a totally different licence to copyright with all rights reserved.

Copyleft with attribution preserves virtually no rights for the author.

And once a licence on a published work has been stated, it can't be changed later to one with more restrictions.

I think "the horse has bolted" on your articles prior to November.

November 20, 2008 3:52 PM




I know what his response will be:

He used © and not (cc).

but:

Before Licensing

..............

What if I change my mind?


This is an extremely important point for you to consider. Creative Commons licenses are non-revocable. This means that you cannot stop someone, who has obtained your work under a Creative Commons license, from using the work according to that license. You can stop offering your work under a Creative Commons license at any time you wish; but this will not affect the rights with any copies of your work already in circulation under a Creative Commons license. So you need to think carefully when choosing a Creative Commons license to make sure that you are happy for people to be using your work consistent with the terms of the license, even if you later stop distributing your work.

For some creators and/or licensors, this is not an important issue. If you are an amateur photographer, and you’ve just taken a cool picture of Mt. Fuji, there may be little risk to you if you decide to make it available under our freest license that reserves only the right of attribution. But if you’re a musician who depends upon your music for your livelihood, you should think carefully before giving away commercial rights to your creative work...


Creative Commons

Frank should have thought beforehand. He should have used the copyleft licence which DID NOT allow copying for commercial purposes.
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Offline Michael

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Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:39 am   Post subject: Re: KOMO 4 NEWS REPORT (ABC) IN SEATTLE   

Tara wrote:
Seattle's KOMO 4 News (ABC) and their report of the Amanda Knox Defense Fund Website.

It's interesting to read the comments...

FAMILY SEEKS FINANCIAL HELP

They are also reporting about Edda's interview with Oggi.


Hi Tara,

I couldn't help noticing this one comment....how ironic? :)



eastwest wrote:
BTW, if things go well they might even be able to make some money back by signing a book deal when it's all over.
Maybe even a movie deal...
They should start shopping around now.


Komo Reader Comment

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:55 am   Post subject: Re: Neutrality   

Skep wrote:
Just examine the deletions of comments deemed unacceptable with respect to Knox and compare with comments left to stand (except when she is hounded by her own posters) about Rudy Guede and more recently, the Kercher family. Except, of course, the deletions have been stricken from the record so they can no longer be examined.

Incidentally, the most offensive comments about the Kerchers made by Kelly 13 were finally and very quietly removed. And when frog-y made reference to the fact that they had been removed, his comment was deleted -- ostensibly because it contained one of the offending statements. But in fact, if you look at the string where Kelly's more recent offensive comments were made, the quoted references to those comments made by the two posters who disagreed, are still standing. So that can't be the real reason frog-y's post was deleted.

And it sure makes for a tangled web.


That delete button isn't a moderating tool for her, it's a weapon... Just as is her whole blog come to think of it.

I shall be updating Frog-y-rana Delete Watch shortly :)

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 2:19 am   Post subject:    

Skep wrote:
Don't forget, Brian, that in the comments section of that particular entry, Frank suddenly blurted out (why I don't remember) that his blog was "American."...


And legally, he's right Skep.

Blogger.com is owned by Google and hosted on servers in California.

The laws in all countries haven't caught up with the internet yet but:

One thing that has pretty much been agreed around the world is that the location of the hosting server decides the legal jurisdiction under which that site falls.

Legally, Perugia Shock is American.
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Offline indie


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 5:05 am   Post subject:    

Brian S. wrote:
Skep wrote:
Don't forget, Brian, that in the comments section of that particular entry, Frank suddenly blurted out (why I don't remember) that his blog was "American."...


And legally, he's right Skep.

Blogger.com is owned by Google and hosted on servers in California.

The laws in all countries haven't caught up with the internet yet but:

One thing that has pretty much been agreed around the world is that the location of the hosting server decides the legal jurisdiction under which that site falls.

Legally, Perugia Shock is American.


Yes, in fact this is why the MySpace Teen Suicide trial is being held in California despite the fact the teen committed suicide in her Missouri home. MySpace servers are in LA,

MySpace Suicide Trial
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Offline Jumpy


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:27 pm

Posts: 231

Location: US

PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 6:49 am   Post subject:    

You guys are like Nancy Drew/Andy Hardy/ Sherlock Holmes/ Race Banner/ James Bond/ Agatha Christie/ You Name It/ all wrapped into one! I love it!
It amazes me!
:)
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Offline cindy


Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:57 pm

Posts: 26

Location: spain

PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:44 pm   Post subject:    

jumpy, i do too !

i just wish i had found this web site when it started. i have a lot of catching up to do! all these people are so ¨up¨ on all the details, makes me feel stupid.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 7:37 pm   Post subject: Jump on in   

Jumpy wrote:

Quote:
You guys are like Nancy Drew/Andy Hardy/ Sherlock Holmes/ Race Banner/ James Bond/ Agatha Christie/ You Name It/ all wrapped into one! I love it!
It amazes me!


And you, Jumpy, are part of it! Plus, you make me laugh out loud.


Cindy wrote:

Quote:
I just wish i had found this web site when it started. i have a lot of catching up to do! all these people are so ¨up¨ on all the details, makes me feel stupid.


Don't worry about it, Cindy. I'm glad to see you here. Jump in any time. We revisit lots of things and it helps everyone understand better.
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Offline Michael

Site Admin


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Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:41 pm   Post subject: Candace Dempsey is at it Again!   

Candace Dempsey wrote:
Posted by Candace Dempsey at 11/21/08 10:04 a.m. #219952

Frog-y. I am sorry, but I can't provide links to those pages. It's a free world and people can go there and read about what horrible people Frank and me are if they like. Since neither of us was in Perugia at the time of the murder, going there will not help anyone solve the crime.

It's a shame because your powerpoints are great.

Ferdi is correct in that you can register and provide your email that way. That's okay. But if you link to one of those Websites I cannot let you post here for the reason above, not to mention the misuse of copyrighted photos--illegal under PI rules that all American newspapers follow. Both sites have interconnecting links and the same posters, so I see little difference.

Moderators used to have an agreement that we would not bring disputes from one blog to another. Frank and I are the not the ones who broke it. Thus we cannot fix the problem. All we can do is refuse to link to sites.

I am sorry.



THE COOK'S BLOG

Since Fast Pete has posted both on this site and his own, which Candace Dempsey reads, a COMPREHENSIVE clarification of that site's use of any material (nearly all his photos are his OWN taken by HIM in any case), her accusing Fast Pete of "misuse of copyrighted" photos is an outright lie and a case of blatant LIBEL!!! I hope Fast responds robustly!

Second point. There was NEVER any agreement that a site could not critique another in regard to evidence and the facts and how those are reported! This is not a 'dispute' and it is not a personal matter between 'members', which is to what the agreement actually applied.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:42 pm   Post subject: Dempsey doodle dandy   

Michael wrote:

Quote:
Since Fast Pete has posted both on this site and his own, which Candace Dempsey reads, a COMPREHENSIVE clarification of that site's use of any material (nearly all his photos are his OWN taken by HIM in any case), her accusing Fast Pete of "misuse of copyrighted" photos is an outright lie and a case of blatant LIBEL!!! I hope Fast responds robustly!


Candace Dempsey is unable or unwilling to understand certain kinds of clarifications, especially when they require that she recognize an erroneous statement. Fast Pete probably won't bother responding again. Three strikes and you're out. She has had an opportunity to correct the statement and has not. The real reason, as every schoolboy knows, is that Pete's site has been very critical of Candace Dempsey and her PR Reader blog. She doesn't want anyone who stumbles upon her blog to link to a site that contains the record, for example, of the horrible anti-Kercher statements made by one of her stalwart posters, Kelly13, that were not initially deleted and that now have been clandestinely removed. Indeed, a poster who made a comment yesterday about the mere fact that these posts were finally deleted was himself deleted!

The fact is, she doesn't want the casual reader to see today's front page, about the Seattle PI's reaction to Fast Pete's critical review, or anything else that is critical of her for that matter.

That's her right. But she can't expect Frog-y to alter his powerpoint presentations (which contain links to the places where discussion stimulated Kermit's creativity). I guess that would be taking the revisionist impulse a little too far.


Michael wrote:

Quote:
Second point. There was NEVER any agreement that a site could not critique another in regard to evidence and the facts and how those are reported! This is not a 'dispute' and it is not a personal matter between 'members', which is to what the agreement actually applied.


Candace misunderstood Steve Huff's original statement and has been running with it ever since. I made the - in retrospect - serious mistake of asking her to remove a post made by Charlie on her blog, crowing about how Steve's haloscan was dead. I never asked that anything else be removed or otherwise altered, and would not have done so in this case had Charlie simply complied with my request that he have it removed.

Candace immediately decided that she could distort the meaning of Steve's words and put pressure on the moderator of the new board (where we started up after Chris Mellas and his sidekick Goofy made it impossible to remain on haloscan) to remove comments about herself that she did not like. The most ridiculous, I will say it again, was when she took exception to a comment made by Kermit about her limited command of Italian. I was asked to correct Kermit on the board, and tell him she was fluent in Italian. I said I couldn't do this because I had no way of knowing whether or not she was (but suspected she would not pass my definition of fluency). Candace later threatened to take another minor grievance to Steve Huff when I refused to comply with a request to delete something that was not libelous. He told to tell her that me if she couldn't take criticism she needed to get the f*ck off the internet.

What I finally realized was that, not content to run her own blog, Candace wanted to exercise control over our board as well. Much as she likes to do at Frank's. I felt like I was dealing with a child who wanted to get attention, test the limits and also raise them inch by inch.

Michael, I know that you understnad, having been subject to some of these same pressures from the same person.

I just wanted CD to understand that she could delete and admonish to her peril but also in complete freedom on her own blog, but that she was going too far in trying to control content on other people's blogs and boards. Candace would have been fine in the old days, before the internet, when she could have exercised more control over public expressions of distaste for her views. But that's just not the way things work any more.

As everyone here knows, I did not always agree with some of the more outrageous statements made about Candace Dempsey by some posters. I believe that valid criticism is always better than calling someone names or taking cheap shots. I actually think the sting is stronger when the argument is persuasive, well put and true. But in the case of Candace, what makes it hard to defend her is her own active role in making otherwise reasonable people despise her. I just posted a comment on Fast Pete's blog about what I see as the fundamental problem with the Seattle PI hosting this particular reader blog under the circumstances. It is a full expression of my deep difference of opinion with Candace Dempsey. Anyone who wants to read it can go there. Otherwise, I have no problem with Candace Dempsey and believe that she is no less entitled than anyone else to rabbit on about this case or anything else.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 9:12 am   Post subject:    

A new "superwitness". The man says he saw the four (AK, RS, MK, RG) together on Oct 30 at the house.

"...
L'uomo sostiene infatti che due giorni prima del delitto vide Amanda Knox, Raffaele Sollecito e Rudy Hermann Guede uscire dal cancello di via della Pergola insieme alla stessa Mez. Ai giudici dovrà però spiegare come mai abbia deciso di raccontarlo soltanto un anno dopo. Nella «lista testi» presentata ieri mattina dai pubblici ministeri ci sono novanta nomi. Persone che si chiederà alla corte d'assise di interrogare per ricostruire che cosa accadde prima e dopo la sera del primo novembre 2007 quando la giovane inglese fu uccisa con tre coltellate alla gola. In aula la partita tra le parti si giocherà proprio sulla loro credibilità. E dunque sarà fondamentale capire per quale motivo alcuni siano rimasti in silenzio per tutti questi mesi, nonostante l'inchiesta fosse costantemente al centro dell'attenzione di giornali e televisioni anche stranieri. Comprendere come mai quest'uomo, che secondo i magistrati può imprimere la svolta decisiva al dibattimento, non abbia finora ritenuto importante rivelare quello che dice di aver visto.

«Sono quasi certo che fosse il 30 ottobre 2007 — è scritto nel verbale che ha compilato qualche settimana fa —, io stavo passeggiando in via della Pergola e ho visto uscire dal cancello della villetta i quattro ragazzi. Sono sicuro che ci fosse Rudy perché lo conoscevo già di vista e dopo aver visto le foto sui giornali ho riconosciuto anche gli altri». L'uomo ha una quarantina d'anni, sostiene di aver riferito ad alcuni amici quello che aveva visto già nella prima fase delle indagini, ma di aver deciso di non presentarsi perché non era sicuro che fosse determinante per l'esito dell'inchiesta.
..."

(Corriere della Sera, Fiorenza Saranzini)
http://www.corriere.it/cronache/08_nove ... aabc.shtml
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Offline Jools


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 11:26 am   Post subject:    

Hello Bolint,

Thank you for the link to the Corriere article. Does it say in this bit that Sollecito may be known to the police in Bari as a habitual drug user?

'Un poliziotto ha rintracciato una segnalazione di qualche anno fa al prefetto di Bari nei confronti dello stesso Sollecito come «assuntore abituale di sostanze stupefacenti ». '
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 12:34 pm   Post subject:    

" Does it say in this bit that Sollecito may be known to the police in Bari as a habitual drug user? "

Something like that. There is some police record on that in Bari.

These days one feels that the trial is coming. The warm-up bands are playing now. :D
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 1:38 pm   Post subject:    

According to the Corriere report cited above there are a total of six other recent witnesses, three women and three men.

- one girl who was awaken by a scream
- two others who heard the noise of running
- the man who saw Amanda in the shop at 7:45 Nov 2
- a policeman who found something on the Bari drog use of Raffaele
- the lawyer of Kokomani who wants to confirm the memoirs of his client
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 1:57 pm   Post subject:    

I'm waiting for the spate of magazine and newspaper article and televison interviews to begin just before trial. We know exactly what inaccuracies to expect from her family and her supporters: the crime scene was compromised, Amanda's false confession was thrown out, Amanda only lied once, the European press gave Amanda the nickname Foxy Knoxy etc. At least they can no longer claim that there was no sexual violence or that Amanda was "smacked around".
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 4:46 pm   Post subject:    

La Stampa also reviews the witnesses.

On Friday the prosecutors handed in their list of witnesses of 90 persons.
The last day for the defense groups to give their list is next Wednesday.


Interesting:
"C’è anche quel particolare che Laura Mezzetti, una coinquilina di Amanda e Mez, aveva dimenticato di verbalizzare: Amanda aveva una piccola lesione alla gola, che copriva con una sciarpa. "

Laura now says she then forgot to talk about the fact that Amanda had a small lesion on her neck that she covered with a scarf.


In this report not the lawyer but an Aalbanian friend of Kokomani is mentioned as a witness.

"E c’è anche l’amico albanese di Hekuran Kokomani, che sostiene che nei giorni successivi alla morte di Mez, l’amico gli confidò di aver visto Amanda, Raffaele e Rudy fuori la casa della morte. "

He claims that Kokomani said him in the days after the murder that he had seen the three in front of the house.


(La Stampa: Tutti contro Amanda, Guide Ruotolo)
http://www.lastampa.it/redazione/cmsSez ... girata.asp
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 4:48 pm   Post subject:    

corr.: Guide Ruotolo=Guido Ruotole
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 5:12 pm   Post subject:    

bolint wrote:
Laura now says she then forgot to talk about the fact that Amanda had a small lesion on her neck that she covered with a scarf


I'll reserve judgement on the witnesses who have come forward recently, but Laura's comment has to be taken seriously. We don't actually know when she made that comment, but if its true, and I have no reason to doubt her, it would suggest that Meredith defended herself and fought back.

Someone posted a photograph of Amanda outside of the cottage on the old TC board and it seemed that Amanda was missing an earring. It would be useful is someone could post that photograph again. It might explain why Amanda's and Meredith's blood was mixed together in the bathroom.

I'd like to hear Mignini's explanation why the prosecutors took Hekuran Kokomani's testimony seriously. I'm assuming it was his mobile phone being pinged in the vicinity of the cottage on 31 October and 1 November, his recollection of the broken down car and breadkdown truck, and his claim that Amanda and Raffaele were watching the cottage seems to corroborate Toto's testimony.
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Offline Fly by Night


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:09 pm

Posts: 1014

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 5:22 pm   Post subject: Re: Dempsey doodle dandy   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Candace Dempsey is unable or unwilling to understand certain kinds of clarifications, especially when they require that she recognize an erroneous statement.


That's not all Candace Dempsey doesn't understand. For someone who is so desperately seeking to be THE information clearinghouse on the topic of the Murder of Merdith Kercher she has repeatedly displayed an ASTOUNDING and WILLFUL ignorance of detail and process on everything surrounding this case; so much so that I suspect that the entire thesis of her novella will be forced to migrate or perish as she attempts to comprehend and integrate a complex and evolving crime scenario as this actual trial begins and proceeds. For Candace, I believe it is a grave error in judgement to wait until after the trial to publish.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 5:24 pm   Post subject:    

The Machine wrote:
bolint wrote:
Laura now says she then forgot to talk about the fact that Amanda had a small lesion on her neck that she covered with a scarf


I'll reserve judgement on the witnesses who have come forward recently, but Laura's comment has to be taken seriously. We don't actually know when she made that comment, but if its true, and I have no reason to doubt her, it would suggest that Meredith defended herself and fought back.

Someone posted a photograph of Amanda outside of the cottage on the old TC board and it seemed that Amanda was missing an earring. It would be useful is someone could post that photograph again. It might explain why Amanda's and Meredith's blood was mixed together in the bathroom.

I'd like to hear Mignini's explanation why the prosecutors took Hekuran Kokomani's testimony seriously. I'm assuming it was his mobile phone being pinged in the vicinity of the cottage on 31 October and 1 November, his recollection of the broken down car and breadkdown truck, and his claim that Amanda and Raffaele were watching the cottage seems to corroborate Toto's testimony.


There are two or three pics that show a mark on Amanda's neck.

I've posted them two or three times. They should be easy to find again. The mark is clearly visible on the pics where Amanda stands with Raffaele, but there's even a pic where the mark can be seen through the tinted glass of a police car. I don't think Laura will be the only person who saw that mark, though it could be she who could describe Knox attempting to cover it. I also believe it is one of these same pics which blown up will show the missing ear stud. I haven't got much time to look just now, but if no-one else posts the pics in the meantime, I'll do it later on.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 5:31 pm   Post subject:    

Il Messagero's report of the new superwitness:
(Disclaimer: my translation, be careful)

"The last of the witnesses found by the prosecution has been put at top to the list. He comes up only now because he did not think that his story was important. In fact, on the evening of the crime he did not see anything. But he remembers another thing that strengthens the construction of the prosecuting attorneys Manuela Comodi and Giuliano Mignini. An Italian university student, living in an apartment in the center, tells more or less the following: … it was thirty October, a year ago, exactly the day before Halloween. It was evening, I had come back to the town, I remember it was a severe evening… They were all together. Who? Those persons who now I recognize as Meredith Kercher, Amanda Knox, Raffaele Sollecito and Rudy Hermann Guede. If it seemed that they knew each other? Yes, they were talking, it seemed to me that they knew each other. What were they doing? They went up along via de Pergola.Yes, went upward ... "


(Il Messagerod, Italo Carmignani and Vanna Ugolini)
http://www.ilmessaggero.it/articolo.php ... E_INITALIA
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Offline Jools


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 5:34 pm   Post subject:    

'22 novembre 2008 - E' stata chiesta la testimonianza davanti alla Corte d'assise di Perugia dei genitori e dei fratelli di Meredith Kercher nel processo a carico di Raffaele Sollecito e Amanda Knox. Servirebbe a ricostruire la personalità e il carattere della giovane uccisa, ma anche a descrivere la sofferenza subita nell'ultimo anno in seguito all'omicidio. Nella lista testi della parte civile - 65 nomi complessivamente - figurano investigatori e altri testi comuni ai pubblici ministeri.'

http://tinyurl.com/5zcnxy

It appears The Kercher family are asking the court to be heard at the trial in the case against suspects Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda knox.

They be able to testify about Meredith's personality, character but also to describe the suffering undergone in the past year after the murder.
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:53 pm

Posts: 340

Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 5:39 pm   Post subject:    

Hi TM,
It was me who posted the image of Knox with what certainly looks like her bottom lobe stud missing.
I commented at the time that it appears to me that it could have been torn out in a desperate struggle.
The investigators have stated that Meredith put up a fight for her life.

It was Edda Mellas herself who stated that the fresh blood of Amanda's that was found on the sink and tap in the bathroom mixed with Merediths blood came from Amanda's ear, due to her "piercings".
It is notable that Knox herself hasn't stated this. This was early on when Edda Mellas came on the scene and tried to get her daughter under her control and keep her mouth shut.
I also believe that the bottom lobe stud is the easiest to grab hold of and tear out during a struggle, especially for a right handed person.
I've posted another image of a mark on Knox's neck but this could be explained as a lovebite or hicky as known in the US but then again could also be a sign of a struggle.
On the bottom shot just look at those eyes from the histrionic Madam Knox.




_________________
R.I.P
Meredith Kercher.


Last edited by DeathFish 2000 on Sat Nov 22, 2008 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Anastasia


Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:13 pm

Posts: 47

Location: Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 5:48 pm   Post subject:    

DeathFish 2000 wrote:
Hi TM,
It was me who posted the image of Knox with what certainly looks like her bottom lobe stud missing.
I commented at the time that it appears to me that it could have been torn out in a desperate struggle.
The investigators have stated that Meredith put up a fight for her life.

It was Edda Mellas herself who stated that the fresh blood of Amanda's that was found on the sink and tap in the bathroom mixed with Merediths blood came from Amanda's ear, due to her "piercings".
It is notable that Knox herself hasn't stated this. This was early on when Edda Mellas came on the scene and tried to get her daughter under her control and keep her mouth shut.
I also believe that the bottom lobe stud is the easiest to grab hold of and tear out during a struggle, especially for a right handed person.
I've posted another image of a mark on Knox's neck but this could be explained as a lovebite or hicky as known in the US but then again could also be a sign of a struggle.





Hi Deathfish2000
I dont know if anyone brought this up, if someone has, I apologize, but, is that what Ak and Rf used the lamp for? To find AK's missing stud, lost during the struggle? because surely that would REALLY and TRULY incriminate them in Meredith's murder, so Ak had to get 'super sleuth' and look for that pesky ear stud.
Anastasia
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Offline Michael

Site Admin


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Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 5:51 pm   Post subject: Re New Superwitness   

bolint wrote:
Il Messagero's report of the new superwitness:
(Disclaimer: my translation, be careful)

"The last of the witnesses found by the prosecution has been put at top to the list. He comes up only now because he did not think that his story was important. In fact, on the evening of the crime he did not see anything. But he remembers another thing that strengthens the construction of the prosecuting attorneys Manuela Comodi and Giuliano Mignini. An Italian university student, living in an apartment in the center, tells more or less the following: … it was thirty October, a year ago, exactly the day before Halloween. It was evening, I had come back to the town, I remember it was a severe evening… They were all together. Who? Those persons who now I recognize as Meredith Kercher, Amanda Knox, Raffaele Sollecito and Rudy Hermann Guede. If it seemed that they knew each other? Yes, they were talking, it seemed to me that they knew each other. What were they doing? They went up along via de Pergola.Yes, went upward ... "


(Il Messagerod, Italo Carmignani and Vanna Ugolini)
http://www.ilmessaggero.it/articolo.php ... E_INITALIA


Thanks for that Bolint :) Wow. So this witness puts not only the three suspects together, but also actually with Meredith?

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:53 pm

Posts: 340

Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 5:54 pm   Post subject:    

Hi Anastasia,
I think it is an absolute certainty that the lamp from Knox's room was used in Merediths room as an aid to the clean up/frame up and very likely used by Knox to search for her ear stud, among other things.

_________________
R.I.P
Meredith Kercher.
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Offline Michael

Site Admin


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Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 6:08 pm   Post subject: Re: Earing   

Anastasia wrote:
I dont know if anyone brought this up, if someone has, I apologize, but, is that what Ak and Rf used the lamp for? To find AK's missing stud, lost during the struggle? because surely that would REALLY and TRULY incriminate them in Meredith's murder, so Ak had to get 'super sleuth' and look for that pesky ear stud.
Anastasia


Hi Anastasia :)

Yes, I mentioned the fact that the lamps and their position close to the ground, reminded me of when someone loses a contact lense or earing. It was a later bout of that discussion that caused DF2k to load up the image of her left ear above...which looks very much like the one in her lobe has been 'ripped' out. Personally, I subscribe to the idea of the lamps being used for the clean-up (as do the ILE). However, it could also be quite possible that one lamp or both, was 'originally' used to look for a missing ear ring, but it was then noted they would also be very useful in the clean-up (since they would provide the means of providing close 'adjustable' ground light, whilst also enabling the window and shutters to be closed).

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline Michael

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Posts: 16732

Location: England

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 6:19 pm   Post subject: Patrick and Rudy witnesses   

I'm hearing Patrick Lumumba and...RUDY GUEDE are going to be witnesses for the prosecution. I need to confirm. Back soon.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline Jools


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 6:27 pm   Post subject: Re: Patrick and Rudy witnesses   

Michael wrote:
I'm hearing Patrick Lumumba and...RUDY GUEDE are going to be witnesses for the prosecution. I need to confirm. Back soon.


Michael LOL :lol:

You are now sounding like the cook with the I'm hearing...
:lol: :lol:
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 6:29 pm   Post subject:    

Hi DF2K,

Thanks for posting the photographs. I think Amanda might have to explain what happened to the missing earring in court. I'm looking forward to Amanda and Raffaele being cross-examined by the prosecution in court. They've both hidden behind their right to silence.

The witness who claims he saw Amanda, Raffaele and Rudy with Meredith is an interesting development. I can understand why he didn't think what he saw was important enough to go to the police. Candace Dempsey has often made the sneeering comment that Hekuran Kokomani is the only person in the world who claims he saw Amanda, Raffaele and Rudy together. Unfortunately, Meredith saw all three on the night in question, but she can't testify that she did. Candace is not particularly bright; she doesn't seem to realise that Rudy Guede also confirmed that all three were at the cottage on the night of the murder.

I don't know what to make of Rudy Guede appearing as a witness at the trial. It's a strange development if it's true because he chose not give evidence at his own trial. Has he agreed to tell the truth in return for a reduction in his sentence? I don't know what he benefit he could be to the prosecution if he sticks to the story that his lawyers outlined at his abbreviated trial.


Last edited by The Machine on Sat Nov 22, 2008 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 6:40 pm   Post subject:    

Michael wrote:
I'm hearing Patrick Lumumba and...


I've been trying to find a story I read two or three weeks ago, just after the finish of the trial, without any luck.

It said that the police had just gathered some "new evidence from Le Chic". Is this actually verbal evidence to be given by Patrick and not "physical evidence" as I had assumed when I read that story?

ISTM that Patrick may well know more about the relationship between Meredith, Amanda, Raffaele and Rudy. They had all been in his pub.


Last edited by Brian S. on Sat Nov 22, 2008 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 6:41 pm   Post subject: Re: Patrick and Rudy witnesses   

Jools wrote:
Michael wrote:
I'm hearing Patrick Lumumba and...RUDY GUEDE are going to be witnesses for the prosecution. I need to confirm. Back soon.


Michael LOL :lol:

You are now sounding like the cook with the I'm hearing...
:lol: :lol:



s-((( cry-) n-((

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 6:41 pm   Post subject: A time to give   

Bolint wrote:

Quote:
Il Messagero's report of the new superwitness:
(Disclaimer: my translation, be careful)

"The last of the witnesses found by the prosecution has been put at top to the list. He comes up only now because he did not think that his story was important. In fact, on the evening of the crime he did not see anything. But he remembers another thing that strengthens the construction of the prosecuting attorneys Manuela Comodi and Giuliano Mignini. An Italian university student, living in an apartment in the center, tells more or less the following: … it was thirty October, a year ago, exactly the day before Halloween. It was evening, I had come back to the town, I remember it was a severe evening… They were all together. Who? Those persons who now I recognize as Meredith Kercher, Amanda Knox, Raffaele Sollecito and Rudy Hermann Guede. If it seemed that they knew each other? Yes, they were talking, it seemed to me that they knew each other. What were they doing? They went up along via de Pergola.Yes, went upward ... "


Thanks for the translation, Bolint. It sounds as if there are several credible witnesses among the 90 or 100 slated to appear at the trial.

On another note, in my morning sweep of the blogs and boards, I saw that there is some confusion over the defense fund set up to defray the high cost of defending Amanda Knox and ensuring that her parents can be close to her while she is incarcerated in Italy. The KOMO coverage that Tara linked to states that "supporters" of AK set up the website, while Nick Pisa in the Mail asserts that the parents set up the site. A poster called "Someonewhoknows," who presumably has ties to the family, says that the site was not set up by the family, but by friends (supporters) who naturally solicited testimonials and photos from family members.

It remains that the site is registered as a non-profit site (.org) by persons whose names do not appear on the site, and that the proceeds of the fund-raising appeal will go - presumbably - directly to AK's parents, to offset their costs.

So the big news (!) is that while the parents are benefiting from the money collected, they have not themselves made the appeal to the public for funds. It was made spontaneously on their behalf.
Whew! Now that we have that cleared up...

There were 93 comments on the KOMO website as of this morning, about 95% of them against the idea of appealing for funds in this case. Many people commented on the information contained in the article - to the effect that the family has retained one of Italy's top defense attorneys, which is costly, and one of its top forensic specialists, which is also costly - and wondered why Joe Q. Public (not to be confused with Joe the Plumber) should be asked to help pay. Many others noted that times are tough and that many people in far more dire straits could use a bit of money. One person even said, wryly, that he would love too but had no more checks left, having used the last one to contribute to the OJ Simpson defense fund.

Happily, many people said that if they were going to give, it would be to a fund set up in honor of the victim or to help her family. The idea is still out there, and overtures have been made, so maybe that will happen soon. Watch this space! :)

While it is normal that friends of the family would want to pitch in and help, taking the extra step and asking strangers to give money to pay for the defense of some who is not indigent seems to have backfired with the public. Personally, I would never write a check or give money to any cause unless I knew exactly who (names, something more specific than faceless supporters) was behind it; what kind of ad-hoc or special purpose structure had been set up to enable it to function; what its operating costs, if any, are; and so on. But that's probably because I often work with CPAs and corporate finance types.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 6:47 pm   Post subject: Re: Lumuba   

Brian S. wrote:
Michael wrote:
I'm hearing Patrick Lumumba and...


I've been trying to find a story I read two or three weeks ago, just after the finish of the trial, without any luck.

It said that the police had just gathered some "new evidence from Le Chic". Is this actually verbal evidence to be given by Patrick and not "physical evidence" as I had assumed when I read that story?

ISTM that Patrick may well know more about the relationship between Meredith, Amanda, Raffaele and Rudy. They had all been in his pub.


Hi Brian :)

I'll have a look for that too :) But, I think he's also going to testify that he was going to sack Amanda and give her job to Meredith.

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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 6:53 pm   Post subject:    

"It was a severe night" says the new witness

I found these data at this site:
http://www.tutiempo.net/en/Climate/Perugia/161810.htm

Extender Data October 30, 2007 Values Nº
Mean temperature: 13.3 ºC 18
Mean dew point: 11.1 ºC 18
Maximum temperature: 16 ºC
Minimum temperature: 10 ºC
Mean sea level pressure: - -
Mean station pressure: - -
Mean humidity: 87 %
Mean visibility: 7.6 Km 18
Mean wind speed: 11.5 Km/h 18
Maximum sustained wind speed: 24.1 Km/h
Maximum wind gust: -
Precipitation amount: -
Occurrences: Rain or Drizzle
Thunder



Extender Data October 31, 2007 Values Nº
Mean temperature: 13.3 ºC 17
Mean dew point: 7.9 ºC 17
Maximum temperature: 14 ºC
Minimum temperature: 11 ºC
Mean sea level pressure: - -
Mean station pressure: - -
Mean humidity: 70 %
Mean visibility: 11.1 Km 17
Mean wind speed: 20 Km/h 17
Maximum sustained wind speed: 35.2 Km/h
Maximum wind gust: 42.4 Km/h
Precipitation amount: -
Occurrences: None



Extender Data November 1, 2007 Values Nº
Mean temperature: 11.2 ºC 18
Mean dew point: 5.5 ºC 18
Maximum temperature: 13 ºC
Minimum temperature: 9 ºC
Mean sea level pressure: - -
Mean station pressure: - -
Mean humidity: 68 %
Mean visibility: 11.3 Km 18
Mean wind speed: 22 Km/h 18
Maximum sustained wind speed: 31.3 Km/h
Maximum wind gust: -
Precipitation amount: -
Occurrences: None
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 6:55 pm   Post subject:    

OT, sort of:

I also noticed some comments about whether one could put two and two together from Fast Pete saying he hoped SB would write a book about Meredith and Brian and Michael wondering about the copyright change on Frank's blog and came up with the idea that SB is planning to write a book, and is therefore desperately looking for a way around the copyright issue.

The poster who spoke for SB on Frank's blog has it exactly right. I have no plans to write a book and have only one goal: to ensure that justice is done for Meredith and that her family gets the closure it deserves. And as I read on that blog, SB sure does think that ANYONE who profits from the death of MEREDITH KERCHER is a SCUMBAG.

In my personal opinion, making book deals or film deals or otherwise using this case to promote a book based on the flimsy notion that the prosecutor in both cases is the same guy, and/or contributing in any way to that advertising endeavor while this matter is pending and while Meredith's family continue to absorb their grief and wait for justice is just plain wrong.

Very OT, but interesting: Steve Huff has a report up about the very disturbing suicide of a poster called CandyJunkie, who announced to fellow posters on bodybuilding.com that he was going to commit suicide and that he had set up a webcam in order to do it online. Nobody believed him - he had a history of being a troll - so he posted a suicide note and then proceeded to do exactly what he announced. This is a truly bizarre and tragic story, which you can read about on Steve's true crime report blog.
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 7:06 pm   Post subject: Re: Lumuba   

Michael wrote:
Brian S. wrote:
Michael wrote:
I'm hearing Patrick Lumumba and...


I've been trying to find a story I read two or three weeks ago, just after the finish of the trial, without any luck.

It said that the police had just gathered some "new evidence from Le Chic". Is this actually verbal evidence to be given by Patrick and not "physical evidence" as I had assumed when I read that story?

ISTM that Patrick may well know more about the relationship between Meredith, Amanda, Raffaele and Rudy. They had all been in his pub.


Hi Brian :)

I'll have a look for that too :) But, I think he's also going to testify that he was going to sack Amanda and give her job to Meredith.


Here's a warning Michael.

As Skep knows I've been searching for this story for some time. I don't believe it's in the English press and I've been through much of the Italian press from that time, no luck yet. I believe I may have read it in something like Il Giornal Dell'Umbria and their stories are only visible on the net for a day as a pdf.

The subject of the story was Micheli's request for the prosecution to re-investigate the movements of Raffaele and Amanda in the hours before and after the crime. It finished with a sentence which said words to the effect that "police had already taken/obtained??? new evidence from Le Chic."
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 7:08 pm   Post subject: La Stampa   

Here's a quick and dirty google translation of the La Stampa article Bolint kindly partially translated:

La Stampa wrote:
All against Amanda

Amanda Knox



Ninety witnesses indictment, a U.S. site collects money for the girl
GUIDO Ruotolo
PERUGIA
I remember perfectly that afternoon. It was Oct. 30, I am wrong. I was there, and I saw them leave all four from the gate, from the house via della Pergola 7. Yes, there were all four: Amanda, Raffaele, Rudy and Meredith. I'm sure they were. Rudy had already seen. No, I was not his friend. Perugia is small ... And the others I recognized them from photos. Why I decided to speak today? I thought a lot, I have not seen that crime ...». Tick a new supertestimone. It is not the only, and is not the only news on the eve of trial for the murder of Meredith Kercher, which will open in Perugia on December 4 next year and that will see the dock Amanda Knox and Raffaele call, having already been sentenced to Rudy Guédé 30 years, he has chosen the rite shortened. Yesterday morning the prosecution filed a list of ninety who wants to hear witnesses in the hearing. The defense will do the final day, Wednesday. Raffaele urge to announce yet another battle - that other legal perugini branded as "the last straw fires" - hoping that the President of the Court of Assizes, Giancarlo Massei, decides the postponement to January of the first hearing because up to yesterday hearing file was still empty. And the civil suit, which represents the families of Mez, request is directed at the hearing in camera. In short, a process not at all obvious, which continues to enrich shots of the scene. There are seven new witnesses who will spend Caudine Forks of the hearing and at risk of fueling new controversy by the defense, before being heard in the classroom where will persuade jurors and judges that their statements are genuine, and explain because we are determined to speak only on the eve of trial. Ninety witnesses: the protagonists of a year of investigation and controversy. The friends of Mez, Robyn, Amy, Sophie, Nathalie. Doctors lawyers, consultants, police and the Sco Furniture Perugia, Scientific experts, the inhabitants of Via della Pergola 7, the witnesses, the women cleaning the house call.

And Rudy, who may decide not to respond in the classroom. And there will be seven new witnesses. There is one that has seen the four protagonists of the evil of the first night last November out of the gate via della Pergola 7, two days before the massacre Mez. Rudy and Meredith along with Raffaele and Amanda. If this were true witness, meaning that if the judges were believed to supertestimone it confirms the view that Rudy, who had a physical attraction towards Amanda, lied when he claimed not to know Raffaele (also a graduate of Giovinazzo says not know the Ivorian), for example. But Rudy also said he that evening, the evening of the crime, went into the house of Via della Pergola 7 because he had appointment with Mez. Certainly, the Manuela pm Convenient and Giuliano Mignini during the preliminary hearing, to motivate the opposition to the release of two former boyfriends, had announced a supplementary inquiry. But to deliver new hearing witnesses in maximum time expired (although not formally so) is one that carries its own risks. There are two girls who swear that he heard steps in the path of Melo, that night. They, too, as the bedside - a key witness, as he acknowledged the same Gup Paolo Micheli which condemned Rudy and returned to court Amanda and Raffaele - were just sleeping and think that they had been 23 when you wake up to those steps of the race. And another witness, again as the bedside, is convinced that he had heard the screams in the house of Via della Pergola 7. In short, the cries of Mez. There is also the proprietor of a food store: says he saw Amanda, with scarf and hat, arriving at his shop at 7.45 the two last November. There is also the particular that Laura Mezzetti, a party of Amanda and Mez, had forgotten to record: Amanda had a small lesion in my throat, which covered with a scarf. Similarly there is a new clarification of Antonio Curatolo, the tramp who lived in affected Grimana square near Via della Pergola, who dismissed the doubts about the date: "I saw Amanda and Raffaele around the square in 23-23,30 Grimana the first night of November. I am sure because the next morning the streets were the carabinieri to questions. "

And there is also a friend of Albanian Hekuran Kokomani, which argues that in the days following the death of Mez, the friend confided that he saw Amanda, Rudy and Raffaele outside the house of death. And there is a witness who comes from Bari, and Raffaele call confirming that he had a report from the prefecture since taking drugs, hashish.


According to this, it's the OWNER of the shop that saw Amanda on the morning of the murder!

EDIT: And Rudy WILL be there.

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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 7:13 pm   Post subject:    

The Machine wrote:
Hi DF2K,

Thanks for posting the photographs. I think Amanda might have to explain what happened to the missing earring in court. I'm looking forward to Amanda and Raffaele being cross-examined by the prosecution in court. They've both hidden behind their right to silence.

The witness who claims he saw Amanda, Raffaele and Rudy with Meredith is an interesting development. I can understand why he didn't think what he saw was important enough to go to the police. Candace Dempsey has often made the sneeering comment that Hekuran Kokomani is the only person in the world who claims he saw Amanda, Raffaele and Rudy together. Unfortunately, Meredith saw all three on the night in question, but she can't testify that she did. Candace is not particularly bright; she doesn't seem to realise that Rudy Guede also confirmed that all three were at the cottage on the night of the murder.

I don't know what to make of Rudy Guede appearing as a witness at the trial. It's a strange development if it's true because he chose not give evidence at his own trial. Has he agreed to tell the truth in return for a reduction in his sentence? I don't know what he benefit he could be to the prosecution if he sticks to the story that his lawyers outlined at his abbreviated trial.


I've heard Sollecito is going to speak in court and I dearly hope Knox does.
I can't see it myself though, but I live in hope.
Her lawyers will be all too aware that this is suicide for them, considering her past outbursts and behaviour.

The new witness's indeed are an interesting development.
I suspect they have more than this up their sleeve too, as I heard a story awhile back that people have given statements to police that they had seen all 3 together in a nightspot and took it for granted they were a "group" or at least all friends.

I agree Dempsey can hardly be described as the sharpest tool in the box although she thinks she is at her own grandmas table she has in her head.
It is a trademark of Dempsey for her to sneer at everyone, everything and anything she percieves as being against her precious murder suspect Amanda.
Laughing along with Frank at "parkbench" for example, leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Then I respond and name her poster girl "Amnesia Knox" and she goes into a mad deletion frenzy LOL!!!

Regarding Guede I think there's a good chance he's agreed to tell the truth in return for a reduction in his sentence but I don't know how Italian law stands on this.

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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 7:27 pm   Post subject:    

DF2K wrote:
Regarding Guede I think there's a good chance he's agreed to tell the truth in return for a reduction in his sentence but I don't know how Italian law stands on this.


They don't do plea/sentence bargaining . When they bought the shortform trial in (which Rudy took), only a few years ago, it offered what some people have interpreted as an indirect version of plea bargaining. It was hoped that many people would take it up with a guilty plea following presention of the prosecution file in return for a reduction in their sentence, then they can't appeal. It was hoped this would speed up the system.

However, as Rudy demonstrated, many plead "not guilty", get the sentence reduction and then file for appeal. It appears it doesn't work as intended.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 8:22 pm   Post subject: I love the night life   

Brian wrote:

Quote:
As Skep knows I've been searching for this story for some time. I don't believe it's in the English press and I've been through much of the Italian press from that time, no luck yet. I believe I may have read it in something like Il Giornal Dell'Umbria and their stories are only visible on the net for a day as a pdf.

The subject of the story was Micheli's request for the prosecution to re-investigate the movements of Raffaele and Amanda in the hours before and after the crime. It finished with a sentence which said words to the effect that "police had already taken/obtained??? new evidence from Le Chic."


I still haven't found the first written reference to this new evidence, but I am 99% sure (the other 1% is an allowance for possible early onset of Alzheimer's) I saw a video (probably Italian news footage) of the police going to or emerging from Le Chic. Does anyone else remember this? Kermit, you uploaded a lot of that footage for the TC board: do you remember seeing this particular scene?

Re: New witnesses and in particular the guy who says he saw the 4 together. Rudy says in the narrative he wrote while awaiting extradition from Germany that he had been to the cottage and had even spent the night. He describes an evening of smoking pot with the boys downstairs in which Amanda and then Meredith made an appearance. He never mentions Sollecito, but I would not take this to mean that he had never met Sollecito. The boys downstairs will surely be able to say more about when and how often Sollecito was at the cottage and whether or not he may have crossed paths with Rudy Guede. And the latest information about Sollecito being busted a couple of times for smoking hash could be relevant. I still want to know who he bought his drugs from in Perugia. If Rudy was a small-time dealer, they may have met. This is a small town; they lived 129 steps from one another.

Possibly one of the reasons that Micheli made the statement in his ruling about the lack of cellphone records not being that important in establishing the connection between the protagonists is that some of this information was already available or was emerging. We keep hearing about the same 3 or 4 clubs and pubs; it's not like there are 100 of them. I was also thinking about the Le Monde article, where the journalist talks about the party scene in Perugia. Parties start in the clubs and pubs before moving on to people's houses and flats. Private parties operate on an open-door basis. You don't need a formal invitation to get in.

Re: The nick on AK's neck. We noticed this a long time ago and have posted that photo of it before. Remember also that RS was wearing a yellow woollen scarf on the day after the murder. Was he hiding something too? European men tend to wear scarves a lot, especially if they feel a cold coming on, but maybe he had another reason for keeping that scarf tightly wound around his neck.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 8:46 pm   Post subject: Song for Amanda   

Um....found this song for Amanda. I don't know what to say really:

AMANDA KNOX SONG

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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 9:04 pm   Post subject:    

Hi Michael,

I saw that video before as well. Whoever the singer is a bad one. He goes on about Amanda being beautiful, how she is all that his dreamt, and the chorus line is:
'Lets go around the city together and cut little children throats.'

If is meant to be a joke is a stupid one!
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 9:13 pm   Post subject: Selling Photos   

According to this, the Knox family are now selling photos of Amanda to raise money???

SELLING PHOTOS

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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 9:31 pm   Post subject: Cooks consultancy?   

Maybe the family are taking advise from the Cook about copyright images etc.
:lol: :lol:

Oops I better clarify that this is a joke just in case the award winning journo runs with it :lol: :lol:
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 9:41 pm   Post subject: encyclopediadramatica.com   

Michael,

Maybe we need a new thread for disgusting media links. Here's another one to add: :roll:

http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Amanda_Knox
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 9:48 pm   Post subject: Re: Selling Photos   

Michael wrote:
According to this, the Knox family are now selling photos of Amanda to raise money???

SELLING PHOTOS


Yes, but these images are in stark contrast to all the images of Knox taken since Merediths lifeless body was found.
These images available now of Knox as a child are a sick attempt to garner sympathy, appealling to a normal persons awwwww... factor in looking at pictures of innocent children.
This is what they hope to achieve.
First they offered that she can't be guilty because she is nice looking (I personally don't think so) and now she must be innocent as she was a cute little kid before she became a heavy skunkweed user.
I can't see it helping her in court though.

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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 10:11 pm   Post subject:    

"While it is normal that friends of the family would want to pitch in and help, taking the extra step and asking strangers to give money to pay for the defense of some who is not indigent seems to have backfired with the public"

I think that the US public is not much supportive in the first place.
No matter how many lawyers try to erase the "false confession", it was made and there was not so huge "police pressure" at all that justifies it.
I think that's what most people think.
The argument that an American is treated bad in Italy does not work either, because Raffaele gets the same treatment for apparently slightly less involvement.
So it is not an easy PR situation. It is extremely difficult.
But the family has not many options.
This kind of heavily legalistic defence based on the "right to silence" requires a lot of money.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 10:29 pm   Post subject: Re: New Witness   

A crucial new witness has claimed that he saw the Leeds exchange student Meredith Kercher with her alleged killers two days before she was stabbed to death in the Italian city of Perugia.

According to investigators, his account demonstrates that the accused knew one another and sealed a murder pact.

The unnamed witness, described only as a man in his forties, told prosecutors that he saw the victim outside her home with her American housemate Amanda Knox, Knox’s Italian boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito and the Ivory Coast drifter Rudy Guede. The four were leaving the cottage which Kercher and Knox shared, and walked through the front gate together...

The Milan newspaper Corriere della Sera yesterday quoted the witness as telling investigators: “I’m almost certain that it was on October 30, 2007. I was out for a stroll on Via della Pergola [Kercher’s street] and I saw the four young people come out of the cottage gate. I’m certain Rudy was there because I knew him by sight and, after I saw the pictures in the newspapers, I recognised the others too,” the witness testified.

The man said that soon after the murder he told friends what he had seen but did not contact investigators at the time because he was not sure his evidence was important...

For the prosecutors, the evidence is crucial to proving that the three went to the cottage to rape and kill Kercher.

“The testimony is important because it’s the only precise indication that the three alleged killers knew each other and were together shortly before the murder,” said Francesco Maresca, the lawyer for the Kercher family. Guede and Sollecito claim they had never met before the murder.

Prosecutors will summon a total of 90 witnesses to the trial. Among them are six who have only recently come forward. One young woman says she was woken by a scream on the night of the murder and two more say they heard the sound of people running away.

Kercher’s parents, John and Arline, her brother Lyle and her sister Stephanie, have been asked to address the court about her character and their suffering over the past year.

Meanwhile Knox’s family and friends have launched a new website (www.amanda defensefund.org) described as “a special place to share who the ‘real’ Amanda Knox is and allow you to help support her”.

It includes family photographs showing Knox playing with a guitar at the age of three, studying in her room and beaming at her graduation ceremony. Donors can send cheques to the fund or donate Air Miles to help pay for her legal fees.

THE TIMES

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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 11:09 pm   Post subject: Top of the list   

funnycat at 11/22/08 2:33 p.m.at the cook's reader blog names top of the list trusted source:

"Frog, and was it Tufa, of course one has to decide who to trust. Someonewhoknows is one such poster for me. One criteria: over time, has this person told truth? Maybe made a mistake that they are willing to acknowledge, but who deomonstrates over time that what they say was truthful? Perhaps if you find the person to be a supporter, you take that into consideration. Do they have access, tell truth, acknowledge mistakes?

Chris Mellas is at the top of my list."

Yeap, specially the bit about 'tell truth' :lol:
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 11:26 pm   Post subject: Unsavoury Cook   

I was wondering what scorn the cook and her unsavoury gang are going to pour on the 90 witnesses that are being called when the trial begins.
What objects of derision are they going to make of them?
What names are they going to assign to them along the lines of "parkbench" and so forth?
Well, they have 90 to come up with from now until the 4th Dec so they better get their thinking caps on.
No matter if they don't know who they all are yet or what they are going to say - it hasn't bothered them in the past.

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Offline Jumpy


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 3:02 am   Post subject: Re: Unsavoury Cook   

DeathFish 2000 wrote:
I was wondering what scorn the cook and her unsavoury gang are going to pour on the 90 witnesses that are being called when the trial begins.
What objects of derision are they going to make of them?
What names are they going to assign to them along the lines of "parkbench" and so forth?
Well, they have 90 to come up with from now until the 4th Dec so they better get their thinking caps on.
No matter if they don't know who they all are yet or what they are going to say - it hasn't bothered them in the past.


Yes, remember Candace's sickening pandering about the "beautiful" names of Mez's friends? In my opinion she was trying to start a class war between the students of Leeds and Knox, trying to get more background info. Well, Candy, as a travel writer, perhaps you might make a visit to the golden triangle!

Who named her Amnesia Knox above? That made me laugh out loud.
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 3:39 am   Post subject:    

Twas I Jumpy.
I never had my DF2K handle then, I just posted and signed with my initials.

As regards the pandering about the beautiful names, it did come across as sick to me when you look at who it is coming from and the context it is in.
Same as that thing about the flowers she published - a truly cynical, hypocritical cover your arse load of crap that she doesn't mean one iota.
Same as Frank on the anniversary of Merediths murder, himself posting the same sentimental drivel that means nothing from within the context of his pro Amanda site.
It is just phoney.
The pair of them in tandem then have the audacity to say that not one of us posted anything on their "tribute pieces".
They are sickening, truly sickening these people.
I don't know what I would liken it to, I really don't.

I will never forget the images of Dempsey caught stalking the Kercher family during the pre trial and thinking what would the Kercher family think if they knew that someone who supports the prime murder suspect of their daughter was creeping behind them taking photographs.
There is video of her doing this.

You can see shots of her here if you track back:
http://www.daylife.com/search/photos/al ... manda+Knox


I don't know, I guess I must have had a better upbringing.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 4:53 am   Post subject:    

Jools reported (the words of Funnycat):

Quote:
Frog, and was it Tufa, of course one has to decide who to trust. Someonewhoknows is one such poster for me. One criteria: over time, has this person told truth? Maybe made a mistake that they are willing to acknowledge, but who deomonstrates over time that what they say was truthful? Perhaps if you find the person to be a supporter, you take that into consideration. Do they have access, tell truth, acknowledge mistakes?

Chris Mellas is at the top of my list.


Well if one must have a list of truthiness tellers and one starts from certain assumptions, which we need not go into here, then Funnycat's is as good as any. It would be interesting to have a list of the mistakes CMellas (or Someonewhoknows or Showmeyoursources, etc.) has acknowledged and another list of all the truthful things he has said that have in fact turned out to be true over time.

But why take the time to make such a list when it is so much easier to deal in generalities?

I still can't quite figure out how to reconcile CMellas stating that he had both spoken and never spoken to Raffaele Sollecito, in terms of how both could be true. Of course, one way of solving this conunundrum would be to deny or forget that either statement was ever made, which is easy to do since both statements have since been deleted.

But I fully agree with Funnycat. One does have to decide who to trust.
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 11:02 am   Post subject:    

Michael wrote:
The unnamed witness, described only as a man in his forties, told prosecutors that he saw the victim outside her home with her American housemate Amanda Knox, Knox’s Italian boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito and the Ivory Coast drifter Rudy Guede. The four were leaving the cottage which Kercher and Knox shared, and walked through the front gate together...

The Milan newspaper Corriere della Sera yesterday quoted the witness as telling investigators: “I’m almost certain that it was on October 30, 2007. I was out for a stroll on Via della Pergola [Kercher’s street] and I saw the four young people come out of the cottage gate. I’m certain Rudy was there because I knew him by sight and, after I saw the pictures in the newspapers, I recognised the others too,” the witness testified.

The man said that soon after the murder he told friends what he had seen but did not contact investigators at the time because he was not sure his evidence was important...

The Times



You'll need to open the pdf of this front page of Il Giornal Dell'Umbria to read the print.

It describes the new witness as a "universitario", and since he is in his 40's, I assume this means he is a university lecturer.

I can't get to pages two and three which contain the story continued on from the front page.
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 11:34 am   Post subject:    

L'Unione describes the new witness as a young graduate.

But more interestingly they say Guede has been called by Maresca on the Kercher's witness list.

THE FAMILY OF MEZ front of the Court of Assizes of Perugia could also testify parents, sister and two brothers Mez. To be referred to were the lawyers Francesco Maresca and Serena Perna representing them as a civil party. "To rebuild his personality Meredith - they explained - but also to describe their suffering proved in the last year." The same lawyers have also asked to hear Guédé. Only in the coming days we will know the composition instead of lists of text-defense and to urge Knox. Lawyers have until Wednesday to give their names. By that date must be prepared the dossier of the hearing (the first hearing is set for Dec. 4). To prepare the following acts by the GUP chancelleries are engaged in a particularly complex. That is the case lately circulated c 'is also to a possible postponement of the trial, even though there' s no confirmation of a shift....

Google translation of L'Unione Sarda
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 11:48 am   Post subject:    

Witness also called "a young graduate".

Raffaele's lawyers complain to the Prosecutor General:


People who have presented to attorney after more than a year since explaining that it had not considered particularly important to report the details have not directly witnessed the crime. Ask to intervene against the attorney general Perugia lawyers Luca Maori and Marco Brusco, two defenders to urge Raffaele. Lawyers stressed that it had not yet received any formal communication of the filing of minutes "as is required by law." "We therefore call - they told the lawyers and Maori Brusco - that the prosecutor general to take action to make clear. It 'strange that texts already considered' key 'to the investigation are found after one year but we can give even more to read in the newspapers the contents of depositions without having yet available acts "

Google translation of the CU
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 1:30 pm   Post subject:    

There's a new thread about the Meredith Kercher case and media bias on the BBC UK News message board. I hope the members of PMF make thier feelings known about some of the disgraceful coverage of the case by certain newspapers and news channels. Here's the link:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbfivelive/F2148564

You'll have to join the BBC forum. It takes a couple of minutes.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 1:38 pm   Post subject: Sources   

Hi Brian,

I've downloaded the PDF's and will see what I can do with them.

I've found a good source for Italian news stories which may preserve a great many useful reports, including those that may have only been up for a day...I'm tracking back through them at the moment (looking for keys and such). It's an Italian blog that covers crime in general, but there's a good many Meredith stories:
WILDGRETA

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 2:05 pm   Post subject: Re: Top of the list   

Jools wrote:
funnycat at 11/22/08 2:33 p.m.at the cook's reader blog names top of the list trusted source:

"Frog, and was it Tufa, of course one has to decide who to trust. Someonewhoknows is one such poster for me. One criteria: over time, has this person told truth? Maybe made a mistake that they are willing to acknowledge, but who deomonstrates over time that what they say was truthful? Perhaps if you find the person to be a supporter, you take that into consideration. Do they have access, tell truth, acknowledge mistakes?

Chris Mellas is at the top of my list."

Yeap, specially the bit about 'tell truth' :lol:


Hi Jools,

Well, that statement of Funnycat's is just breathtaking. I can actually write quite a detailed list of all the things that guy has said that have turned out to be untrue/incorrect. However, when thinking of a list of things he's said that has later been shown to be accurate...you know, I can't think of a damned thing. Even in his latest list of 'facts' he posted on Frank's some time back, he announced the blood downstairs was from the cat being 'on heat' (as opposed to a cut ear)....then later, in all reports we are hearing, no...it's a cut ear. He can't even get that right. And I'll not forget on Haloscan when he said when Amanda phoned them the day Meredith was discovered, she was 'alone' at the cottage and was 'phoning' Raf to bring him over and they told her to call the police (something she wasn't capable of doing, despite the fact it's only 3 little numbers) and I won't even get started on the vanishing crap in the toilet. He also said on that occassion that they hadn't got the DNA report on the knife until Aug/September (which even then wasn't complete), despite the fact they had been saying as fact, all year, that it wasn't Meredith's DNA on that knife. If THAT is Funnycat's BEST source, then no wonder she never posts under her Funnycat moniker anywhere else aside from Candace's!

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Offline indie


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 3:42 pm   Post subject:    

DeathFish 2000 wrote:

The new witness's indeed are an interesting development.
I suspect they have more than this up their sleeve too, as I heard a story awhile back that people have given statements to police that they had seen all 3 together in a nightspot and took it for granted they were a "group" or at least all friends.



And perhaps the witnesses' cellphone records could be coordinated with Amanda's and Raffaele's to add some objective proof too. For example, the witness may have phone pings in the same area as Amanda's or Raffaele's phones on the nights they state they saw them. Too bad Rudy did not supposedly have a phone because that would have been VERY helpful.

I like so many of us following this case have always believed there just had to be some sort of relationship between the three of them with a semi-quasi plan to do "something" to Meredith. It is the only thing that makes sense at least for me.
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Offline indie


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 3:52 pm   Post subject:    

On the issue of the truthfulness of C Mellas I'd also like to add, can anyone state ONE piece of information that he has posted on behalf of Amanda that definitively will help her in court? IMO all he has posted are generalizations with sketchy timeframes and "just you all wait and see" refrains. We asked politely for simple answers to simple questions. I believe the handwriting is on the wall for the Knox family and unfortunately they need a translator cuz it might not be in English.
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 5:00 pm   Post subject:    

indie wrote:

I like so many of us following this case have always believed there just had to be some sort of relationship between the three of them with a semi-quasi plan to do "something" to Meredith. It is the only thing that makes sense at least for me.


Absolutely.
I think the defence are hanging onto the cliff edge by their fingernails to suggest otherwise.
This can be seen when their supporters harp on about "how could a group of people who hardly or don't know each other conspire all of a sudden to commit a murder like this?"
They will say this in desperation because it is the only thing they could say.
Aswell as discrediting the DNA evidence they now say none of them knew each other but Knox has stated she had met Guede at least 4 times previously.
One has to remember Knox is known to be economical with the truth to say the very least.
I am looking forward to an explanation in court as to why Knox maintains she was home all night with Sollecito but he stated to police she left at 9pm and came back around 1am - and I also wonder why she would leave her boyfriend at home and go off somewhere on her own on a public holiday.
I personally believe Knox was sleeping with both Guede and Sollecito around the same time, just a hunch.
Regarding a plan to do "something", Knox I believe is the main architect here, she is central to everything.
The judiciary tend to believe this too.

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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 5:33 pm   Post subject:    

"For example, the witness may have phone pings in the same area as Amanda's or Raffaele's phones on the nights they state they saw them."

Only calls (and SMS traffic) are logged.
Simple walking between cells cannot be retrieved in the present practice of logging.
Similarly turn on and turn off are not logged and thus cannot be retrieved later.
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 5:49 pm   Post subject:    

DeathFish 2000 wrote:
indie wrote:

I like so many of us following this case have always believed there just had to be some sort of relationship between the three of them with a semi-quasi plan to do "something" to Meredith. It is the only thing that makes sense at least for me.


Absolutely.
I think the defence are hanging onto the cliff edge by their fingernails to suggest otherwise.
This can be seen when their supporters harp on about "how could a group of people who hardly or don't know each other conspire all of a sudden to commit a murder like this?"
They will say this in desperation because it is the only thing they could say.
Aswell as discrediting the DNA evidence they now say none of them knew each other but Knox has stated she had met Guede at least 4 times previously.
One has to remember Knox is known to be economical with the truth to say the very least.
I am looking forward to an explanation in court as to why Knox maintains she was home all night with Sollecito but he stated to police she left at 9pm and came back around 1am - and I also wonder why she would leave her boyfriend at home and go off somewhere on her own on a public holiday.
I personally believe Knox was sleeping with both Guede and Sollecito around the same time, just a hunch.
Regarding a plan to do "something", Knox I believe is the main architect here, she is central to everything.
The judiciary tend to believe this too.


DF2000,

It has been speculated a long time ago on the Italian blogs that Knox had planned a "halloween prank" in order "to punish" Meredith. My personal opinion is that perhaps Mignini 's words as to the links to Halloween were simply referring to the hypothesis that she had organized an expedition to scare/humiliate her. If this is true, perhaps someone lost control at one point and the whole thing turned into a tragedy.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 6:34 pm   Post subject:    

"I am looking forward to an explanation in court as to why Knox maintains she was home all night with Sollecito but he stated to police she left at 9pm and came back around 1am - and I also wonder why she would leave her boyfriend at home and go off somewhere on her own on a public holiday."

They also came to the conclusion that it cannot be maintained so they recanted and the current tune is now that both were at Sollecito's place all time.

This however poses the question why on earth they had invented that they were apart for a while.

There is no credible answer for this only the "confused-beaten-pressured-foreignlanguage-smokedtoomuch-don'tremember" bullshit.
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 6:54 pm   Post subject:    

nicki wrote:

It has been speculated a long time ago on the Italian blogs that Knox had planned a "halloween prank" in order "to punish" Meredith. My personal opinion is that perhaps Mignini 's words as to the links to Halloween were simply referring to the hypothesis that she had organized an expedition to scare/humiliate her. If this is true, perhaps someone lost control at one point and the whole thing turned into a tragedy.


I can't equate the word "prank" with knives, sexual assault, torture and murder. Meredith suffered an exceptionally brutal attack that left her with 47 separate wounds and huge, gaping hole in her neck. Someone held Meredith so tightly around her neck that her tyoid bone was broken. Rudy Guede sexually assaulted her. Meredit's death has been attributed to heart failure due to a combination of hemorrhaging and asphyxia.

Judge Claudia Matteini did not think that someone lost control, but believed the attack on Meredtih was pre-planned and those who carried out it derived some strange enjoyment from Meredith's suffering:

"On the contrary, all of the small wounds with the last fatal one demonstrate cold calculation within the context of pre-planned conduct, the characteristics of which are clear signs of perversion demonstrated by a 'strange' enjoyment of her suffering."

ALL the judges who have looked at the evidence, psychological reports etc refused to grant Amanda and Raffaele bail on te grounds of that they could reoffend. They also noted that Amanda and Raffaele were mentally unstable.

To suggest that Meredith's murder was prank that went too far or a game that went wrong mitigates the actions of those responsible. Their actions are not the actions of normal people who just happened to "lose control" but the actions of evil and seriously disturbed individuals. Meredith suffered a sustained and vicious attack which is believed to have lasted an hour. Meredith fought desperately to save her life and attempted to fend off the knife blows. Someone or some people restrained Meredith, so that the murderer could inflict the fatal wound. If any of Meredith's attackers had played a lesser role they would have come clean and told the truth.
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 8:10 pm   Post subject: Re: Top of the list   

Michael wrote:
Jools wrote:
funnycat at 11/22/08 2:33 p.m.at the cook's reader blog names top of the list trusted source:

"Frog, and was it Tufa, of course one has to decide who to trust. Someonewhoknows is one such poster for me. One criteria: over time, has this person told truth? Maybe made a mistake that they are willing to acknowledge, but who deomonstrates over time that what they say was truthful? Perhaps if you find the person to be a supporter, you take that into consideration. Do they have access, tell truth, acknowledge mistakes?

Chris Mellas is at the top of my list."

Yeap, specially the bit about 'tell truth' :lol:


Hi Jools,

Well, that statement of Funnycat's is just breathtaking. I can actually write quite a detailed list of all the things that guy has said that have turned out to be untrue/incorrect. However, when thinking of a list of things he's said that has later been shown to be accurate...you know, I can't think of a damned thing. Even in his latest list of 'facts' he posted on Frank's some time back, he announced the blood downstairs was from the cat being 'on heat' (as opposed to a cut ear)....then later, in all reports we are hearing, no...it's a cut ear. He can't even get that right. And I'll not forget on Haloscan when he said when Amanda phoned them the day Meredith was discovered, she was 'alone' at the cottage and was 'phoning' Raf to bring him over and they told her to call the police (something she wasn't capable of doing, despite the fact it's only 3 little numbers) and I won't even get started on the vanishing crap in the toilet. He also said on that occassion that they hadn't got the DNA report on the knife until Aug/September (which even then wasn't complete), despite the fact they had been saying as fact, all year, that it wasn't Meredith's DNA on that knife. If THAT is Funnycat's BEST source, then no wonder she never posts under her Funnycat moniker anywhere else aside from Candace's!


Some quotes from one of the most "trusted sources" Sam W Klein= Someonewhoknows/ Sam/arch/


(In reality, Amanda is a hippy. She’s an outspoken pacifist. She’s a kind and gentle person. And she is the last person in the world that deserves this. she listens to the Beatles, for god’s sake. You know, “all you need is love…”)

Is the Cook writing her book on information supply by some of these trusted sources?
They have told so many lies I lost count. Do we know if this book is going to be Fiction?

I can just picture the scenario...
Charlie the goffer.
Funnycat/ Kyle S. the DNA expert.
Sam (S.W.K.) AK's personality/character builder.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 8:41 pm   Post subject:    

"she listens to the Beatles, for god’s sake. You know, “all you need is love…”"


or Maxwell's Silver Hammer
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 8:51 pm   Post subject:    

bolint wrote:
"she listens to the Beatles, for god’s sake. You know, “all you need is love…”"


or Maxwell's Silver Hammer


Good one bolint :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:00 pm   Post subject:    

The Machine wrote:
nicki wrote:

It has been speculated a long time ago on the Italian blogs that Knox had planned a "halloween prank" in order "to punish" Meredith. My personal opinion is that perhaps Mignini 's words as to the links to Halloween were simply referring to the hypothesis that she had organized an expedition to scare/humiliate her. If this is true, perhaps someone lost control at one point and the whole thing turned into a tragedy.


I can't equate the word "prank" with knives, sexual assault, torture and murder. Meredith suffered an exceptionally brutal attack that left her with 47 separate wounds and huge, gaping hole in her neck. Someone held Meredith so tightly around her neck that her tyoid bone was broken. Rudy Guede sexually assaulted her. Meredit's death has been attributed to heart failure due to a combination of hemorrhaging and asphyxia.

Judge Claudia Matteini did not think that someone lost control, but believed the attack on Meredtih was pre-planned and those who carried out it derived some strange enjoyment from Meredith's suffering:

"On the contrary, all of the small wounds with the last fatal one demonstrate cold calculation within the context of pre-planned conduct, the characteristics of which are clear signs of perversion demonstrated by a 'strange' enjoyment of her suffering."

ALL the judges who have looked at the evidence, psychological reports etc refused to grant Amanda and Raffaele bail on te grounds of that they could reoffend. They also noted that Amanda and Raffaele were mentally unstable.

To suggest that Meredith's murder was prank that went too far or a game that went wrong mitigates the actions of those responsible. Their actions are not the actions of normal people who just happened to "lose control" but the actions of evil and seriously disturbed individuals. Meredith suffered a sustained and vicious attack which is believed to have lasted an hour. Meredith fought desperately to save her life and attempted to fend off the knife blows. Someone or some people restrained Meredith, so that the murderer could inflict the fatal wound. If any of Meredith's attackers had played a lesser role they would have come clean and told the truth.


TM,
they have not been charged with premeditated murder so according to prosecutors the intent was not to kill Meredith, but to force her to do something she didn't want to do and that could be part of the crude prank. Not that it makes the crime less horrible, Perhaps I didn't express myself clearly.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:09 pm   Post subject: Beatles Fan   

Jools wrote:
(In reality, Amanda is a hippy. She’s an outspoken pacifist. She’s a kind and gentle person. And she is the last person in the world that deserves this. she listens to the Beatles, for god’s sake. You know, “all you need is love…”)



Yeah, I know of someone else who used to listen to The Beatles too. His name was Mark David Chapman.

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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 11:27 pm   Post subject:    

Charles Manson was a hippy too wasn't he?
The reasons people over on the cook's spurious blog give for the innocence of Knox are quite frankly ludicrous.
Ted Bundy was also highly intelligent and charming to all who met him, until he decided he wanted to bash their brains in or stab them to death with a knife.

On listening to her family and friends one could be forgiven for thinking that Knox was some sort of perfect human being, sent to this earth with the gift of genius and her mission in life to help people and feed them sandwiches.
Oddly enough, Amanda's habit of feeding down and outs and homeless people with sandwiches is in stark contrast to her friends and supporters who scoff at one of the witnesses in her case by calling him "parkbench".
Also this genius level model student who was studying the Italian language in Italy strangely enough came under extreme pressure while being questioned and started to crack up, as her interogators were speaking Italian and Knox couldn't understand them.This for some reason didn't stop the very same interogators from understanding what she said to them.
As stated by associates of Knox in Italy, the so called model student has been quoted as sneeringly casting aspersions at Meredith's character - as she came home from college every evening and studied "like a good little girl".
A few contradictions here, as there seems to be with everything to do with the character of Amanda Knox.

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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:03 am   Post subject:    

DeathFish 2000 wrote:
Charles Manson was a hippy too wasn't he?
The reasons people over on the cook's spurious blog give for the innocence of Knox are quite frankly ludicrous.
Ted Bundy was also highly intelligent and charming to all who met him, until he decided he wanted to bash their brains in or stab them to death with a knife.

On listening to her family and friends one could be forgiven for thinking that Knox was some sort of perfect human being, sent to this earth with the gift of genius and her mission in life to help people and feed them sandwiches.
Oddly enough, Amanda's habit of feeding down and outs and homeless people with sandwiches is in stark contrast to her friends and supporters who scoff at one of the witnesses in her case by calling him "parkbench".
Also this genius level model student who was studying the Italian language in Italy strangely enough came under extreme pressure while being questioned and started to crack up, as her interogators were speaking Italian and Knox couldn't understand them.This for some reason didn't stop the very same interogators from understanding what she said to them.
As stated by associates of Knox in Italy, the so called model student has been quoted as sneeringly casting aspersions at Meredith's character - as she came home from college every evening and studied "like a good little girl".
A few contradictions here, as there seems to be with everything to do with the character of Amanda Knox.


I also think these explanations as to why Knox is innocent are ridiculous-or better- a desperate attempt since they don't have any other valid argument supporting her innocence. Intelligence alone is not a guarantee of honest and decent behavior-actually very intelligent people do excell in many areas, including crime-which is one of the reasons why sometimes they get away with it-Recent and past history is filled with examples of intelligent & successful criminals, and how many times has been repeated here and elsewhere how sweet, loving and kind were the Nazi criminals to their friends, spouses, children and pets whilst coldly and rationally planning the mass murder of millions of innocents? Or how sweet and charming to friends, relative and co-workers were some of the most vicious convicted murderers of recent times?

When I was still living in California in the 80's I was a regular customer of the local dry cleaner whose owner was very cheerful, helpful and kind to all of his customers.I really liked him, he was always available for a friendly chat in the store or when I was running into him in the street.Well he turned out to be a serial killer who raped and murdered several women in the San Diego area. When we read on the paper that he had been arrested we were all shocked: me, my parents and my neighbors, including the 7/11 guy who had been chatting with him and selling him coffee and lunch for a very long time.

So, hearing how nice and wonderful Knox is doesn't change the picture a tiny bit for me. A soud alibi would, although I think that at this point it's a little overdue.
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:41 am   Post subject:    

Hi nicki,
I totally agree.
A sound alibi is well overdue, but alas for them - the chance went as soon as the first story change was recorded.
On listening to what Knox and her boyfriend initially had to say I would imagine the eyebrows of the officers questioning them when looking at each other would outdo Roger Moore in the James Bond films of the seventies.
Quite simply they haven't got an alibi.
Reason?
Guilt.
Pure and simple.
I am as firm as The Machine on this, there is no doubt in my mind whatsoever.
Innocent people do not behave like they have, I do not care what anyone says to the contrary.
It is their behaviour at the time plus their conflicting, contradictory and changing statements and their attitude since incarcerated, that just screams guilt to me - helped along of course by the actions of the "biased chain of solidarity" from the USA.
Quite simply all the story changes are lies.
Why are they lying?
Answer : Because they are guilty of involvement in this crime.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:26 pm   Post subject: Fundraiser   

Friends hold fundraiser for Amanda Knox


Friday night, a group of Knox’s friends and family members sought to escape from the media spectacle and legal aspects that have surrounded much of the case and instead, came together, bonding through their support for Knox to raise money for her family as they weather the storm.

The fundraiser took place in the Holy Rosary School Hall in West Seattle. Friends planned and catered the event, asking for a $50 donation from those in attendance. A slideshow with pictures of Amanda played while guests mingled; there was no talk of the case or evidence.

“A lot of Amanda’s friends have been talking about getting together and helping her and her parents,” David Johnsrud said.

Johnsrud described himself as one of Knox’s closest friends, saying he and Knox used to climb together and were friends all through college.

“The whole event was focused on her and just getting together and saying positive things,” he said. “... but that was secondary to raising money.”

During the past year, Knox’s parents have incurred substantial debt through various legal and travel expenses from supporting their daughter. In addition to buying plane tickets and hiring lawyers, Knox’s parents have also had to hire a public relations representative to handle the media storm that has surrounded them. Furthermore, because of differences within the Italian prison system, they also had to pay fees to make sure Amanda is getting proper nutrition as she awaits trial in prison.

“When you think about your friend, daughter, niece, cousin sitting in a jail cell in a foreign country, it’s tough,” Johnsrud said.

Madison Paxton, another one of Knox’s close friends who helped invite people to the event, was encouraged by the response the event recieved.

“It was so wonderful to see so many people willing to show support,” Paxton said. “Sometimes it feels like we’re the only ones who know her or care, so it kind of gave me more hope.”

“They’ve already missed numerous deadlines,” Paxton said of the Italian prosecutor handling Knox’s case. “Since there are only two to three hearings per month in Italy, the trial could last till September of next year.”

Friends are hoping to continue fundraising events like the one held Friday night, to ensure that Knox’s family can continue to visit her as she waits in Italy. Through the fundraisers, they hope to emphasize that regardless of the outcome of the trial, Knox will still need her family there for her.

Casey Smith

THE DAILY

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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:53 pm   Post subject:    

Il Giornal takes umbrage at Perugia Shock:

Giuseppe Castellini, director of Giornale dell'Umbria wrote the website that he's going to sue Frank Sfarzo for a number of zillions still to be decided. But then he was so kind to disclose his method and to explain why those witnesses are reliable.
He says himself lucky for having a journalist who lives just in piazza Grimana. So he knows who to ask to. And it seems that people living there were feared by talking to the police, or maybe they thought what they had seen wasn't important. That's why with the journalist is easier.
So, Castellini explains that Curatolo is reliable...The store witness is reliable...The one who saw the Peugeot in the garden is sure that it was in the morning of November 2...The one who heard from his house a quarrel between a boy and a girl, then the scream and then someone running, is reliable.....Castellini, then, explains why he doesn't publish what he finds --as journalists usually do, or should do-- but first brings his witnesses to the Pm and only later, when the news is about to become public, publishes: because he doesn't want to interfere with the inquest. Very generous....


Perugia Shock


Last edited by Brian S. on Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:57 pm   Post subject:    

Will it ever sink in with these people that Knox may be guilty?
Why do they think its an impossibility?
If she is found guilty and sentenced, will they stop and think then?
Will they for once think of the victim?

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Offline Anastasia


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:04 pm   Post subject: Re: Earing   

Michael wrote:
Anastasia wrote:
I dont know if anyone brought this up, if someone has, I apologize, but, is that what Ak and Rf used the lamp for? To find AK's missing stud, lost during the struggle? because surely that would REALLY and TRULY incriminate them in Meredith's murder, so Ak had to get 'super sleuth' and look for that pesky ear stud.
Anastasia


Hi Anastasia :)

Yes, I mentioned the fact that the lamps and their position close to the ground, reminded me of when someone loses a contact lense or earing. It was a later bout of that discussion that caused DF2k to load up the image of her left ear above...which looks very much like the one in her lobe has been 'ripped' out. Personally, I subscribe to the idea of the lamps being used for the clean-up (as do the ILE). However, it could also be quite possible that one lamp or both, was 'originally' used to look for a missing ear ring, but it was then noted they would also be very useful in the clean-up (since they would provide the means of providing close 'adjustable' ground light, whilst also enabling the window and shutters to be closed).


Hi Michael
Your right, and I remember now, the trigger to that memory was the 'search for a lost contact' I feel like a dork now :oops: , because I remember when everyone was discussing the lamps and looking for missing 'things' I thought 'wow if she really is missing a stud in her ear, this scenario nails her and raf to the wall' But there is so much info and evidence, its hard to keep track of it all.
Thanks for clarifying :)

Anastasia
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Offline Anastasia


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:18 pm   Post subject: Re: Fundraiser   

Michael wrote:
Friends hold fundraiser for Amanda Knox

Through the fundraisers, they hope to emphasize that regardless of the outcome of the trial, Knox will still need her family there for her.

Casey Smith

THE DAILY


What a CURIOUS statement at the end there, "regardless of the outcome of trial" sounds like yet again, they might already know she is guilty?

I dont think I could give money to a fundraiser like this in good conscience, ever.

Anastasia
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Offline Anastasia


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:21 pm   Post subject:    

DeathFish 2000 wrote:
Will it ever sink in with these people that Knox may be guilty?
Why do they think its an impossibility?
If she is found guilty and sentenced, will they stop and think then?
Will they for once think of the victim?


I dont know Deathfish2000
Denial is not just a river in Egypt. ;)
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:47 pm   Post subject: Re: Earing   

Anastasia wrote:
Hi Michael
Your right, and I remember now, the trigger to that memory was the 'search for a lost contact' I feel like a dork now :oops: , because I remember when everyone was discussing the lamps and looking for missing 'things' I thought 'wow if she really is missing a stud in her ear, this scenario nails her and raf to the wall' But there is so much info and evidence, its hard to keep track of it all.
Thanks for clarifying :)

Anastasia


Hi Anastasia :)

No, don't feel like a dork, you're not. So much has been said by so many people going back through our various incarnations, it's almost impossible to remember all the points that were made and what was said by whom.

But, you bring up something important here. The matter of 'studs'. Would it have been a stud? Many have assumed that it would have been since it was spread around by the Knox Camp some time ago that Amanda had had multiple piercings in her ears just over a week or so before the murder, which became infected. But, it doesn't follow that the piercings in her lobes were amongst that number. Would those have not already been pierced, with the other piercings simply being additional to what was already there? I recall reading (does anyone else recall reading this?) that Amanda had a penchant for wearing 'dangly earings'. Well, one wouldn't be remembered for having a dangly earing preference simply by having worn them for just over a week. If she'd just had them pierced, she'd have always worn studs in any case.

So, if we follow the premise that her lobes were already pierced before the others, it's also logical to suppose she may have been wearing any type of earing, rather then being limited to studs, the night of the murder. Many different earing types also offer more purchase area or snaggy bits, to be grabbed and yanked out, or get caught in something, resulting in the same. Many earing types also have little backs to them which are as easy, or easier still, to get lost as a stud.

It also raises the point, that if her lobes were already pierced, the apparent 'damage' visible in the photo of that ear wasn't caused by any ear infection...but something 'else'.

By the way, I think it was you that asked about my crime scene assessment I wrote back in January? I'll be loading that up to the 'Media' forum shortly :)

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:57 pm   Post subject: Behind Closed Doors   

Meredith Kercher's family ask for murder trial behind closed doors


The family of Meredith Kercher, the British student killed in Perugia, Italy, just over a year ago, has asked for the forthcoming trial of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito on charges of murder and sexual assault to be held behind closed doors because of what they say is the morbid interest in the case, according to the family's Italian lawyer.

Francesco Maresca said the family feared that the trial would become a media circus. He said that if the judge did not agree to the request for the trial to be held in camera, journalists should be allowed in only "two or three at a time" in rotation, with television cameramen and photographers banned altogether.

Mr Maresca said Italian law provided for trials in cases of sexual violence to be closed to the public, at the discretion of the judge. He said that showing graphic photographs and video footage of Ms Kercher's body and the murder scene in open court could do injury to her memory.

Mr Maresca said that 280 journalists had been accredited for the pre-trial hearings, which were held in camera. This led to reporters and photographers trying to snatch pictures of the accused as they arrived and left the court, with defence lawyers and prosecutors besieged by the media outside the courtroom.

He said that if this media assault was repeated for the trial of Ms Knox and Mr Sollecito, which opens on 4 December, “it would be hell. It could create problems of public order.” He said television talk shows should be banned from discussing the case while the trial was in progress...

...Mr Maresca said the case had attracted international attention partly because Ms Knox and Ms Kercher were both “beautiful, though with two completely different characters". Then there was the mix of nationalities involved: Ms Kercher was British, Ms Knox was American, Mr Sollecito was Italian, and Rudy Guede, who was sentenced to 30 years for the murder last month in a separate "fast track" trial, was an immigrant from the Ivory Coast.

Another factor was Perugia itself, an Umbrian hilltop town of steep medieval and Renaissance alleyways, passages and flights of steps “in which people, including the main actors in this crime, move from one house to another with extreme speed".

The murder of Ms Kercher was "without doubt a perfect crime," Mr Maresca told La Stampa. It was a mistake to devise a complex explanation when the crime was in fact “much simpler, I would even say banal”.

He said he did not however believe that Ms Knox, Mr Sollecito and Mr Guede had plotted a premeditated crime. They had gone to the hillside cottage which Ms Kercher shared with Ms Knox "simply to try out an erotic game".

The unforeseen had then happened, he said: Ms Kercher had refused to take part, and was killed. He said interest in the case was “morbid", with endless discussion of sexual violence and attempted sexual acts, with the added suggestion that it had something to do with the masks and sinister atmosphere of Hallowe'en.

Mr Maresca said the murder also fascinated people because it involved “degenerate" young people who smoked cannabis all day, went to bed at four in the morning, and stayed for hours on end glued to a computer screen surfing the internet, “turning their brains to mush." The Perugia crime thus offered “a photograph of today's ruined younger generation".

The prosecution is to call 90 witnesses at the trial, some of whom have only recently come forward. Last weekend it emerged that one new witness, a man in his forties, claims to have seen Ms Kercher together with all three of her alleged killers outside the cottage two days before she was murdered.

Mr Maresca said this was the first “precise indication that the three alleged killers knew each other and were together shortly before the murder". Mr Guede and Mr Sollecito claim they had never met. Italian media quoted the witness as saying “I'm certain Rudy was there because I knew him by sight and, after I saw the pictures in the newspapers, I recognised the others too.”

Richard Owen

THE TIMES

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Offline DLW


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:21 pm   Post subject:    

From the La Nazione:

‘Perugia, 24 November 2008 - The Pm Giuliano Mignini would again examining the medical reports and the reconstruction of aggression to see if the scratch on the neck of Amanda - particularly related by an Italian party - has been inflicted by Meredith before or after colluttazione that he would also urge involved and sentenced to 30 years Rudy Guédé.’

‘It complicate the positions of Amanda Knox and Raffaele call in the process on the death of Meredith Kercher, which should begin next December 4, but that could slip to 17 January 2009 by dell'incompleta list of witnesses to be present l ' indictment.

http://tinyurl.com/5jzrqs
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Offline Anastasia


Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:13 pm

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Location: Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:21 pm   Post subject: Re: Earing   

Michael wrote:
Anastasia wrote:
Hi Michael
Your right, and I remember now, the trigger to that memory was the 'search for a lost contact' I feel like a dork now :oops: , because I remember when everyone was discussing the lamps and looking for missing 'things' I thought 'wow if she really is missing a stud in her ear, this scenario nails her and raf to the wall' But there is so much info and evidence, its hard to keep track of it all.
Thanks for clarifying :)

Anastasia


Hi Anastasia :)

No, don't feel like a dork, you're not. So much has been said by so many people going back through our various incarnations, it's almost impossible to remember all the points that were made and what was said by whom.

But, you bring up something important here. The matter of 'studs'. Would it have been a stud? Many have assumed that it would have been since it was spread around by the Knox Camp some time ago that Amanda had had multiple piercings in her ears just over a week or so before the murder, which became infected. But, it doesn't follow that the piercings in her lobes were amongst that number. Would those have not already been pierced, with the other piercings simply being additional to what was already there? I recall reading (does anyone else recall reading this?) that Amanda had a penchant for wearing 'dangly earings'. Well, one wouldn't be remembered for having a dangly earing preference simply by having worn them for just over a week. If she'd just had them pierced, she'd have always worn studs in any case.

So, if we follow the premise that her lobes were already pierced before the others, it's also logical to suppose she may have been wearing any type of earing, rather then being limited to studs, the night of the murder. Many different earing types also offer more purchase area or snaggy bits, to be grabbed and yanked out, or get caught in something, resulting in the same. Many earing types also have little backs to them which are as easy, or easier still, to get lost as a stud.

It also raises the point, that if her lobes were already pierced, the apparent 'damage' visible in the photo of that ear wasn't caused by any ear infection...but something 'else'.

I think it was you that asked about my crime scene assessment I wrote back in January? I'll be loading that up to the 'Media' forum shortly :)


Michael
Your right about the newer piercings, I hadnt thought of that, they would be further up the curve of her ear, the lobe is nearly always the first spot to be pierced, so why would that bleed, unless she had a small hoop or dangly thing, that easily got snagged when Meredith was maybe taking a swipe at Ak, because she was being cornered or felt she was in danger.
You know I just remembered a time I went out with my friend, she has this knack for starting fights with other girls, well she got in a fight and I intervened and broke it up, and we drove home, and she realized she lost this small necklace, a cross, her grandma gave her, it was very important to her. So first thing in the morning we drove back to the spot where the fight occurred, a small lawn, and we actually found the necklace, it was a delicate, short chain with a very small cross and I was amazed we found it all. In fights it seems that all kinds of things are prone to being liberated from ones self. I have never been in a fight and dont ever plan on being in one, but they look very chaotic at best.

Yes, It would be nice to know and see the other types or ear jewelry Ak wore.

And yes, I did ask about the crime scene assessment you wrote back in January. The one you were going to post on IW but she wouldnt let you post part 2. That was the one I was talking about. I think we are on the same page here :?

Anastasia
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:44 pm   Post subject:    

Knox is wearing large dangly earrings in the infamous machine gun toting "nazi inside" pic.

P.S.
Frank is again showing his respect for Meredith Kercher and her family by again plugging the family of the prime murder suspect's appeal for money.
His command of English has mysteriously taken a turn for the worse too, all of a sudden.

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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 5:51 pm   Post subject:    

DLW wrote:
From the La Nazione:

‘Perugia, 24 November 2008 - The Pm Giuliano Mignini would again examining the medical reports and the reconstruction of aggression to see if the scratch on the neck of Amanda - particularly related by an Italian party - has been inflicted by Meredith before or after colluttazione that he would also urge involved and sentenced to 30 years Rudy Guédé.’

‘It complicate the positions of Amanda Knox and Raffaele call in the process on the death of Meredith Kercher, which should begin next December 4, but that could slip to 17 January 2009 by dell'incompleta list of witnesses to be present l ' indictment.

http://tinyurl.com/5jzrqs


DLW :

Thanks for the link. I think it's significant news, here's a complete translation :

Prosecutor Mignini seems to be again evaluating the medical reports and the aggression reconstruction in order to understand if the scratch on Amanda 's neck -a detail reported by one of the Italian roomates-has been made by Meredith before or after the struggle that would have involved also Sollecito and Guede,sentenced to 30 years.

The position of Knox and Sollecito becomes more complex as to the trial for death of Meredith Kercher that should start on December 4th but could be postponed to January 17th 2009 due to the incomplete list of witnesses that prosecution must present.

Sollecito, after the murder, had immediately offered an alibi to exonerate his American fiancee. As Amy Frost said: " He walked up (NdT:to the cops?) and introduced himself and added: " Amanda was at my apartment last night and she left around 1030 am" A time now being argued by the testimony of a retailer who says he has served and seen Amanda in his store at 730 am (NdT must be 745) of that tragic morning. The man has "de facto" entered the process as a prosecution witness.
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:26 pm   Post subject:    

New Nick Pisa article in The Daily Mail concerning the above here: THE DAILY MAIL


MODERATOR EDIT: Michael, BB coded url.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:57 pm   Post subject: BLOOD ON THE SINK   

Candace Dempsey wrote:
Posted by Candace Dempsey at 11/23/08 2:19 p.m. #220521

Frog-y, I've seen the few blood drops on the sink. I agree the drops can be made to look big when blown up to ridiculous size. But they hardly rate a melodramatic word like hemorrhage. Think about how narrow and small a sink faucet is. The disputed drops are on it.

And actually, I don't think PM Mignini is claiming the Amanda's blood drops are in themselves sinister. I believe he's claiming they had to have been placed there during the murder, not before and after it. I guess they looked "fresh" to him. Hardly a scientific argument, as Funnycat has shown. I'm sure she'd be glad to explain again that there is no valid test for blood dating. Her source is John Butler, one of the leading forensics experts in the world.

In fact, Zach first started doubting the prosecution case one night as he was flossing his teeth. He looked down at the faucet and saw his own drops on the metal. He also found it hard to believe that a student sex party (if there is such a thing outside of PM Mignini's heated imagination) would start as early as 9:30 p.m. and then somehow wildly escalate into murder by 10:25 p.m., leaving behind none of the party debris or even a whiff of cannabis.

I'm amused by people who believe blood from Amanda's infected ears could not possibly have caused a couple of drops to fall onto the sink. I don't know if they did or not, but it's certainly possible.

This argument raged on Frank's site for nearly a week. Then the infected ear doubters began claiming, with no sense of irony, that the lurid bloodtrail downstairs in the boy's flat was caused entirely by a bleeding ear on a cat. Cats are, of course, mammals just like human beings, only they have much smaller ears. Some Amanda ear doubters even vouched for their own particular cat, saying they had seen this blood-trail phenomenon firsthand.


I used to write quite a few posts on the analysis of evidence, but for one reason or another I haven't had time these past few weeks. Since one is long overdue and the blood on the sink can be considered important, I feel it worthy of scrutiny somewhat above that of Candace's 'spin' on it here.

First of all, let's get the picture up of that blood on the tap (faucet in American). Despite what Candace says about 'blow ups' of pictures to make things look bigger then they are, you'll be needing to maximise this shot, since it's not 'size' that we'll be concentrating on.


[align=center][/align]


The ILE has argued, that this blood is fresh and recent. This can be clearly understood when examining the photo of the tap and sink plughole area. Note the prominence of the blood right on the curved top of the chrome tap. and on the white surface of the sink, starkly contrasting with it. We all have taps as a point of reference, we can all gauge the scale in size of the tap and plughole and therefore the stains. It's inconceivable that these would have not have been noticed by any casual user and therefore cleaned off, especially by a rather clean and tidy Meredith, and even a slovenly Amanda. Who would want to use that sink with that there? Therefore, it must have been very recent indeed to not have been cleaned off by someone.

The placement of the blood also makes it highly vulnerable to 'erosion' via general use of the sink. Yet, note the 'pristine' nature of these marks. Their surfaces are hardly even scratched, dulled, or eroded around their edges, which are instead quite defined. The assessment that they are extremely recent would therefore be correct.

Moreover, we can see from the stain around the plughole that it was actually larger, but someone has already made a cleaning attempt. This was by a cloth of some kind, that left sharply defined edges on the stain for those edges would not be left by normal erosion. Whoever cleaned, was in a hurry for that's the only explanation for the blood that was left.

We can also see that the blood is quite deeply hued...it's 'pure'. This is not blood diluted with water from cleaning teeth or flossing. I clean my teeth, I floss and not favouring electric shavers, I also wet-shave (and even cut myself on very rare occassions), yet never have I left blood deposits that looked like those and never on the top of my taps. Nor have I seen others do so.

The blood on the tap is useful. That didn't come directly from the head or body area, since its closeness to the wall would prevent such parts of the body being vertical above it. Therefore, the blood came from a 'hand' that had been transfered to it from somewhere 'else'.

The volume of the blood also rules out it coming from an ear due to some 'infection'. Note, that the partially cleaned stain next to the plughole indicates that there was even more blood then can currently be seen. It should also be be pointed out at this juncture, that 'cats' are not 'humans'. Firstly, humans care if they are getting blood all over the place and attempt to prevent it happening, cats do not. Humans clean up after themselves if they do, cats do not. Moreover, cats do tend to pich and chew at a wound which may cause it to bleed even further, adult humans, as a rule, do not. Humans also apply things to injuries to prevent them bleeding, such as tape or plasters, cats do not. If something is bleeding rather badly, humans will also take themselves to a medic, cats do not and go only if someone takes them. There was nobody there to take the cat in question. Amanda's ears also contained studs blocking much of the surface area that could bleed out, the cat did not. The cat had a 'cut' ear, Amanda did not...or did she? It is therefore, not any kind of true comparison to match Amanda's supposedly infected ear with that of the cat.

Finally. All of this talk of Amanda's ears being infected and supposedly bleeding, have been offered as an excuse by people supporting Amanda on blogs, not by Amanda herself. One who has nothing to do with the case cannot simply offer up excuses on her behalf and then say 'So, it was probably that.' What 'is' important is Amanda herself has not been put on record as offering 'any' kind of explanation for her blood being there 'at all'. Any kind of bleeding by her is noticably absent in both her and Sollecito's accounts of what happened that morning, something of ultimate importance to mention when it's a murder scene and there's blood all over the place...'Oh, I think I really should say, I also bled a little myself at the scene...due to my infected ears you see.' Blood, that 'only' appears in the sink, but nowhere else in the cottage. Are these therefore magic ears that bleed on demand and only in one place? Lastly, if it is true that Amanda has told relatives that her ears were infected and bleeding, they have to accept, as do we, they only have Amanda's word for that...someone who's testimony has been totally unreliable to date.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:05 pm   Post subject: Re: Earings   

DeathFish 2000 wrote:
Knox is wearing large dangly earrings in the infamous machine gun toting "nazi inside" pic.


Hi DF2k. Good spot! We can therefore rule out Amanda's lobes being freshly pierced and can say that she may have been wearing any kind of earings at all on the night in question.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:08 pm   Post subject: Crime Scene Assessment   

Anastasia wrote:
And yes, I did ask about the crime scene assessment you wrote back in January. The one you were going to post on IW but she wouldnt let you post part 2. That was the one I was talking about. I think we are on the same page here


Yes, that's the one, I'll have it posted up by tomorrow. I'll zip a package that also contains the photos I used :)

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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:12 pm   Post subject: scratch mark   

Nick Pisa wrote:

Quote:
Murder suspect Amanda Knox had a cut on her neck according to her flatmate who saw her after the body of murdered student Meredith Kercher was discovered, it emerged today.
A prosecution source said: 'The flatmate's recollection of the scratch on Amanda Knox's throat is very significant. Was it there as a result of attempts by Meredith to defend herself?'


We have known about the red mark on Amanda's neck for a long time. This photo had already been reposted several times in the past.



Quote:
'The cut was missed by police..."


They should have asked us I guess...


Last edited by guermantes on Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline cindy


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:18 pm   Post subject:    

deathfish

it seems to me like frank wrote in italian and did a google translation to post. luckily i can figure out what he means, because after 9 years in spain i sort of talk english like this. see what i mean?

why does he disable comments ? he wants to have control and delete ¨offensive by his definition¨ comments.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:30 pm   Post subject: Frank New Post   

cindy wrote:
deathfish

it seems to me like frank wrote in italian and did a google translation to post. luckily i can figure out what he means, because after 9 years in spain i sort of talk english like this. see what i mean?

why does he disable comments ? he wants to have control and delete ¨offensive by his definition¨ comments.



Hi Cindy :) I've noticed on a couple of occassions, he's done this when he's just posted a new article but isn't quite done with the edits on it.

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Offline cindy


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:35 pm   Post subject:    

michael

ah well then ! i should just go to bed... its gunna take a while to edit this last post of his ....
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:39 pm   Post subject: Frank's Getting Sued   

Frank wrote:
Good news as well for Perugia-Shock's haters. Giuseppe Castellini, director of Giornale dell'Umbria wrote the website that he's going to sue Frank Sfarzo for a number of zillions still to be decided. But then he was so kind to disclose his method and to explain why those witnesses are reliable.


Oh dear Frank.

PS: "Perugia Shock haters"? Isn't that fluent 'Knox Camp' language ('Amanda haters')? I see Frank, that you're not only supporting them, but becoming just like them too.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:42 pm   Post subject: Bit of a Mess   

cindy wrote:
michael

ah well then ! i should just go to bed... its gunna take a while to edit this last post of his ....


Yes...a bit of a mess at the minute isn't it Cindy?

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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:53 pm   Post subject: The Cook's prose   

Hi All,

Frank's latest IMO he wrote in Italian and the Cook did the translation via Google.

This phrase sounds a lot like the Cook it is definetely her style:

"stop watching cartoons and chicks movies"

Another picture of AK wearing long dangling earrings:

http://tinyurl.com/6p5vdb
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:57 pm   Post subject: Grovelling Apology From Frank   

Frank Sfarzo wrote:
Castellini, then, explains why he doesn't publish what he finds --as journalists usually do, or should do-- but first brings his witnesses to the Pm and only later, when the news is about to become public, publishes: because he doesn't want to interfere with the inquest. Very generous.
And with this I hope to have apologized, if I've been too ironic, and expressed his point properly thanks to the long 'journalistic lesson' he was so kind to give me.


There's no reason at all for my making this post. It's completely gratuitous. I made it just for the pleasure of pasting in the Great and Sexy Frank making a grovelling apology to the Giornale dell'Umbria :)

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:06 pm   Post subject: Comments   

cindy wrote:
deathfish

it seems to me like frank wrote in italian and did a google translation to post. luckily i can figure out what he means, because after 9 years in spain i sort of talk english like this. see what i mean?

why does he disable comments ? he wants to have control and delete ¨offensive by his definition¨ comments.


Comments are open now.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:21 pm   Post subject: Re: scratch mark   

guermantes wrote:

They should have asked us I guess...


Yeah, I hear you and I hate to say it but like the bra clasp, I am a disappointed in some aspects of the investigation. Was she photographed at the time of her arrest? Might not be too helpful though considering her wound had time to heal and decrease in redness.

I am getting the feeling the trial date will be moved to January. It seems like there are too many loose ends.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:31 am   Post subject: Guzman's Going Again   

Supporters raise $11,000 for Amanda Knox family


A fundraiser aimed at defraying the legal bills in the high-profile Italian murder trial of former University Washington student Amanda Knox, pulled in more than $11,000 Friday, an organizer said...

...About 200 people came to the evening event at West Seattle's Holy Rosary School Hall, said organizer Brian McGaughey.

Reporter Casey Smith of The Daily at the University of Washington described the scene as informal and mellow, with little if any mention of the case that's grabbed headlines worldwide and sparked an international frenzy for information about the young suspect.

"It's pretty tough to even wrap your head around having a son or daughter abroad behind bars in a situation like this," said McGaughey, who's known Edda Mellas, Knox's mother, for 12 years.

"We've been standing by as this thing has gone on for over a year thinking she'd probably come home after the judge reviewed case. After it went to trial, we decided we had to do something."

I asked McGaughey how much a belief in Knox's guilt or innocence factored into his and his wife's decision to organize a fundraiser for her family.

"It doesn't make any difference to us," he said. "I would hope and pray she's able to come home."


MONICA GUZMAN

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Offline nowo


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:41 am   Post subject:    

On the same photo where the mark on AK's neck can be clearly seen, there also seems to be a line of congealed blood on her top lip, right side (as you look at the photo).
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Offline Jumpy


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:44 am   Post subject:    

Just my two cents if the trial is delayed til January, or whenever. For my friend's trial it was delayed and delayed. Months and months, I think it was not until about two years when we went to trial. It made me a little bit crazy because I was worked up...more nightmares...and then nothing for months. But in the end the trial went so smoothly and the best outcome imagined and hoped for did happen. I'd rather the prosectution have all ducks in row to fight the good fight. And really, the defense teams should want it too, but still I feel pretty confident for about this. Standard procedure.

One other thing (I know I go on, sorry) but regarding Laura's testimony about the abrasion she saw on Amanda Knox's neck. Just because she remembered it later, or was able to tell police/investigators about this later does not bother me at all. She is a good witness. I gave statements several times but was finally deposed much later, I think many months later. At that point I was able to elaborate on points to the questions from prosecution and trial. Even though this was not the trial yet, I could not perjure myself. Half the stuff they ask you do not know what angle it is coming from. As I write I talked, talked talked! I had nothing to hide.

Have good night!
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:23 pm   Post subject:    

Guermantes wrote:
We have known about the red mark on Amanda's neck for a long time. This photo had already been reposted several times in the past.


And here it is again on the front page of Il Giornal Dell'Umbria, complete with the red mark ringed.
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:29 pm   Post subject:    

From La Stampa.

http://tinyurl.com/5ubzwr

Trial postpone to 16th January.
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Offline Bluetit


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:29 pm   Post subject: Re: Guzman's Going Again   

Michael wrote:
quoting Monica Guzman (the Daily, U. of Washington)

Supporters raise $11,000 for Amanda Knox family
(...)

I asked McGaughey how much a belief in Knox's guilt or innocence factored into his and his wife's decision to organize a fundraiser for her family.


"It doesn't make any difference to us," he said. "I would hope and pray she's able to come home."




CQFD -- or rather not, for this had been "demonstrated" many times in the past !

Some (most ?) of AK's supporters simply don't care whether she is innocent or guilty. The only thing they are interested in is for her to be able to come home ...

Sad, really ...
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:46 pm   Post subject:    

Posponed to Jan 14.
(The president of the court told to a lawyer of RS.)

Il Messqgero:
Sarà rinviata alla metà di gennaio prossimo la prima udienza (in programma il 4 dicembre) del processo davanti alla Corte d'assise di Perugia a Raffaele Sollecito e Amanda Knox per l'omicidio di Meredith Kercher. L'orientamento è stato comunicato stamani dal presidente della sezione penale del tribunale perugino, Giancarlo Massei, a uno dei difensori del giovane pugliese, l'avvocato Marco Brusco.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:01 pm   Post subject:    

Candace posted the Popovic testimony
and
Yummi posted a good translation:

Posted by Yummi at 11/24/08 12:46 p.m.

(from the original Italian)


Jovana Popovic, an acquaintance of Sollecito reports that on 12.11.07, as she needed to be accompanied to pick up a suitcase at the station, she asked Sollecito if he could accompany her. It was about 17.50, the first of November, because at 18 she had an appointment to the Tre Archi. She was received by Amanda at Sollecito's house. She remained with Amanda who wrote at the computer for three minutes, and then come Raffaele, which, even if in a cold tone, agreed to accompany her. At 19 minutes, the mother of Ms. Popovic told her that she could not send her the suitcase any more, then, after she finished a violin lesson to the Tre Archi, she started to walk her way home at about 20.20, she reached Sollecito's home to cancel the appointment, at about 20.40. Amanda replied, laughing, saying that Raffaele was at home and he invited her in, but (Jovana) just let him know that the appointment was canceled. She didn't see Sollecito.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:25 pm   Post subject:    

candace also posrted Alessandra Formica's testimony:
The relevena part:

"Sono scesi a piedi per le scalette adiacente Piazza Grimana che portano al parcheggio di Sant'Antonio dove avevano lasciato la macchina. Mentre scendevano le scalette, il Minciotti, verso le ore 22.20-22.40, e stato urtato violentemente da un uomo di colore che correva in maniera velocissima verso Via Pinturicchio. La cosa li insospetti. Dopo essere scesi, hanno notato un'auto in panne nei pressi de "Il contrappunto." C'era un Italiano che chiedeva l'intervento del carro attrezzi. Seduta dul sedile posteriore c'era una donna e un neonate. "


The translation Candace posted (I made some minor changes):

"They descended the stairs next to Piazza Grimana that lead to the parking lot of Sant'Angelo where they had left the car. While descending the stairs at around 22.20-22.40 hours, Lucio Manciotti was struck violently by a black man running very fast towards Via Pinturicchio. That made them suspicious. Having descended they noticed a car broken down near "Il Contrappunto". There was an Italian man who sought the intervention of the tow truck. Sitting in the back seat was a woman and a baby. "



Minciotti was the man with Formica.

Il Contrappunto seems to be a bar or something like that

Il Contrappunto
Perugia
Via Degli Scortici, 4/A
Tel: 075/5730730
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Offline Anastasia


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:51 pm   Post subject: Re: Crime Scene Assessment   

Michael wrote:
Anastasia wrote:
And yes, I did ask about the crime scene assessment you wrote back in January. The one you were going to post on IW but she wouldnt let you post part 2. That was the one I was talking about. I think we are on the same page here


Yes, that's the one, I'll have it posted up by tomorrow. I'll zip a package that also contains the photos I used :)


Thats great Michael
And thanks, I look forward to reading it finally :)

Anastasia
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:11 pm   Post subject: Google translation   

Jools wrote:
From La Stampa.

http://tinyurl.com/5ubzwr

Trial postpone to 16th January.


Google translation:

The proceedings against Amanda and Raffaele is postponed to allow the reading of the surveys conducted by the Prosecutors

PERUGIA

It was postponed to January 16 2009, the hearing for the murder of Meredith Kercher that would open the regular procedure against Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, accused of murder in competition and violence of American student (Rudy Guédé has already been sentenced to 30 years having been found with abbreviated rite, ndr).

The chairman of the bench, Giancarlo Massei, has ordered the postponement to allow parties to know the contents of surveys integrative conducted by the Prosecutor Perugia. Tomorrow the deadline expires for filing the list of texts that will be a hundred or so.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:36 pm   Post subject:    

"list of texts"

I think the italian word "testi" is mistranslated here.

list of witnesses, I suppose
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:57 pm   Post subject: hours, not minutes   

bolint wrote:

Yummi wrote: At 19 minutes, the mother of Ms. Popovic told her that she could not send her the suitcase any more...


I guess this passage should read:

At 1900 h (i.e. 7 pm), the mother of Ms. Popovic told her that she could not send her the suitcase any more...
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:22 pm   Post subject: It may be too late   

Brian S. wrote:
Guermantes wrote:
We have known about the red mark on Amanda's neck for a long time. This photo had already been reposted several times in the past.


And here it is again on the front page of Il Giornal Dell'Umbria, complete with the red mark ringed.


Thanks for that, Brian. It's a little bit disconcerting to see that photo on a front page much too late in the day, ie. after the conclusion of the criminal investigation.
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Offline Corrina


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 5:07 pm   Post subject: Fight   

I don't believe for one second that the police did not notice the mark on Amanda's neck. What I believe is that Mignini's long leg is showing more and more. The defense leaked this info about Laura and are busily trying to discredit her for supposedly coming out with it a year later.

The police and investigators knew Meredith put up a fight. Why wouldn't they look for evidence of the same on the suspects?

More spin.

~edited to change week to year; not sure what I was typing!~


Last edited by Corrina on Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Corrina


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 5:11 pm   Post subject: Says it all   

I asked McGaughey how much a belief in Knox's guilt or innocence factored into his and his wife's decision to organize a fundraiser for her family.

"It doesn't make any difference to us," he said. "I would hope and pray she's able to come home."



The above from the link Michael provided? Says it all. It doesn't make any difference to them whether Amanda is guilty.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 5:37 pm   Post subject: Re: Guzman's Going Again   

Bluetit wrote:
Michael wrote:
quoting Monica Guzman (the Daily, U. of Washington)

Supporters raise $11,000 for Amanda Knox family
(...)

I asked McGaughey how much a belief in Knox's guilt or innocence factored into his and his wife's decision to organize a fundraiser for her family.


[b]"It doesn't make any difference to us,"
he said. "I would hope and pray she's able to come home."

CQFD -- or rather not, for this had been "demonstrated" many times in the past !

Some (most ?) of AK's supporters simply don't care whether she is innocent or guilty. The only thing they are interested in is for her to be able to come home ...

Sad, really ...


Hi Bluetit :) I was waiting for someone to notice that. And don't forget this one from the Daily I posted:

"Friends are hoping to continue fundraising events like the one held Friday night, to ensure that Knox's family can continue to visit her as she waits in Italy. Through the fundraisers, they hope to emphasize that regardless of the outcome of the trial, Knox will still need her family there for her."

In other words, it doesn't matter a damn to them if Knox is guilty. Their idea of laws is that they are GREAT, but they only apply to people not in their social circle. Justice for them, means that justice doesn't apply to them...only everyone else.

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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 5:47 pm   Post subject: Re: Says it all   

Corrina wrote:
I asked McGaughey how much a belief in Knox's guilt or innocence factored into his and his wife's decision to organize a fundraiser for her family.

"It doesn't make any difference to us," he said. "I would hope and pray she's able to come home."



The above from the link Michael provided? Says it all. It doesn't make any difference to them whether Amanda is guilty.


Touche.
I've been saying this for a long time.
I think I've commented on here in the past that they know Knox is guilty but just don't care.
How can anyone objectively look at all the evidence in this case and argue the toss continually otherwise.
Birds of a feather stick together so having an alleged murderess in their midst doesn't appear to trouble them in anyway.
When you look at the calibre of the people who support Knox - and the things they say, like Charles Wilkes for instance (who doesn't believe man has walked on the moon either) you get an idea of who you are dealing with here.
The cook has started trashing the Kercher family's lawyer now, describing what Sn. Maresca says as "bullshit".
Of course she would know wouldn't she?

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R.I.P
Meredith Kercher.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 5:55 pm   Post subject:    

This is "Il Contrappunto" (or it's parking lot) mentioned in Formica's testimony, nearby stood the car to be towed later.

http://megatractor.com/ee/images/perugia/36.pdf
(the blue sign on the left, above the cars, difficult to read, but can be magnified and read)
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Offline Corrina


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:04 pm   Post subject: Against the rules?   

Hi DeathFish,

Yes, I read a comment by someone on Frank's that the food and travel writer has taken to cursing on her blog. I wonder if she was at the fundraiser or if she cares if Amanda is guilty or not?

I'm with you. I really believe they KNOW she is guilty. They just really don't care.
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 7:29 pm   Post subject:    

It seems Harry Rag has upset Kelly13 on The Daily UW:

"Harry - You're such a hateful pinhead. The evidence against Amanda is manufactured by a prosecutor who himself is charged with criminal activity. The 13 pieces of evidence you site are silly. It is completely untrue that Meredith Kercher's dna is on the knife found in Raf's flat. This fact was verified at the recent pre-trial hearing, there is no match to Meredith.

You are a hateful blog hog who travels the internet attacking this innocent girl. I hope that your identity is determined so you can be sued for all of you misdeeds against Amanda.
"

I'm sure the Italian authorities would be very interested in reading Kelly's comments about Mignini manufacturing evidence. I think Kelly means cite and not site.

It is Meredith's DNA on the double DNA knife. Renatio Biondo confirmed that the forensic findings, including Meredith's DNA on the knife, were accurate and reliable.

I don't know what Kelly is wittering on about when he says Harry should be sued for his misdeeds against Amanda. Harry provided a succint summary of the prosecution's case against Amanda and Raffaele.
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Offline DLW


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:41 pm

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:08 pm   Post subject:    

Looks like they may also tag Raff with a drug charge:

Perugia, Nov. 25. (Apcom) - ‘In the case of the hearing which will be made available to the parties in the trial for the murder of Meredith Kercher, there is room for a complaint for possession of hashish against Raffaele urge. A modest amount - thus defining the Government - of which Raffaele was held in the summer of 2003. It was one of the policemen patrol the Puglia Region command to find drugs in their pockets's lawyer for the murder of Meredith Kercher. The young man was so Pugliese reported in 2003 as Financial drugs.’

http://tinyurl.com/6qucqn
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:31 pm   Post subject:    

DLW wrote:
Looks like they may also tag Raff with a drug charge:

Perugia, Nov. 25. (Apcom) - ‘In the case of the hearing which will be made available to the parties in the trial for the murder of Meredith Kercher, there is room for a complaint for possession of hashish against Raffaele urge. A modest amount - thus defining the Government - of which Raffaele was held in the summer of 2003. It was one of the policemen patrol the Puglia Region command to find drugs in their pockets's lawyer for the murder of Meredith Kercher. The young man was so Pugliese reported in 2003 as Financial drugs.’

http://tinyurl.com/6qucqn


How old was Rafaele in 2003? If he hadn't turn eighteen yet, his father had to be summoned and he would be aware of his son's drug use. Possession of hash and marjiuana in very small quantities (1 or 2 grs I think) is considered to be destined to personal use, however a fine will be issued and the record will remain on file. If the owner is under 18 the parent or legal guardian are alerted by authorities.
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Offline Fly by Night


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:09 pm

Posts: 1014

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:06 pm   Post subject: They REALLY don't care!   

Corrina wrote:
I'm with you. I really believe they KNOW she is guilty. They just really don't care.


That's right. Hey, one tiny mistake in an otherwise wonderful life. Let's bring her home.
It's time to recall that anonymous post on Guzman's Blog...

Amanda is a good person who made a terrible mistake. A mistake of which we DO NOT and probably WILL NOT know of her full involvement or even lack of involvement. You have know right to bash her if you don't even know her. Take a moment and think about how you would feel if your daughter, sister, or even yourself was in Amanda's position. Those hateful angry words would never have crossed your lips. Grow up and have some compassion! I know Amanda and her family and they have a tremendous amount of support from both friends and strangers.

By now I think most close observers have, in fact, developed a pretty good idea of what her involvement could have been, but for some that remains sadly unimportant.
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:36 pm   Post subject:    

Fast Pete has a new post up about the trial being postponed until January on TJMK.

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 844

Location: New York

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 1:05 am   Post subject:    

Love you guys. If I am not over here at least once a day I feel there is something missing in my life. We have a very good cause.

Just a heads-up that I have to travel this Thursday 27th through Saturday the 6th. In the general direction of (ahem) Vegas. It really is work, and I head right out of there for the mountains and deserts and the communities I try to help.

If you feel a post for TJMK coming on, please email it? Its tough running the site from a notebook, though others have life much tougher. And that site helps this site. Harry Rag checked the numbers and sees our readerships on the rise together.

Deathfish's remarks about the Kerchers have gone over so well. I owe you one, Michael. And I always owe you, Skep.
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 844

Location: New York

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 1:11 am   Post subject: Re: New witness?   

Brian S. wrote:
Suddenly, there are allegedly now in excess or a 100 witnesses to be called to the full trial, which some say could last 8 months.... I don't think 50 new witnesses have just come out of thin air.


Yeah maybe 8 months with hearings every week or two. Tough for good reporting. Reporters must come and go.

Apart from Popham though the Rome correspondents are a fine lot.

A dozen of the witnesses will be from Seattle, Italian papers are saying. I doubt if they will be for the prosecution...
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 844

Location: New York

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 1:15 am   Post subject: Re: Bleach and receipts   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
You don't want to pour a gallon of bleach down your toilet or kitchen sink. If you place the empty container in a dumpster, you have to make sure that no one sees you and that you do it just before rubbish pick-up day, to prevent anyone who may be snooping around from finding it and collecting it as evidence. If the container is not empty, placing it in a dumpster is a real hazard.


Skep,

I think it was one of those spray bleaches with detergent. Small bottle. We figured it out from the name. It's there on the shelf in the store.

Weren't the receipts found at Raffaele's?
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 844

Location: New York

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 1:30 am   Post subject: Re: Against the rules?   

Corrina wrote:
... the food and travel writer has taken to cursing on her blog.


A quote? Anyone? Probably about time we rattled her cage.
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 844

Location: New York

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 1:57 am   Post subject:    

bolint wrote:
This is "Il Contrappunto" (or it's parking lot) mentioned in Formica's testimony, nearby stood the car to be towed later.


Hi Bolint:

I think you are onto something interesting here.

I have just posted 4 more shots of the car-park here. Please scroll down to the bottom for them.

None are perfect of the car-park itself which didnt then seem to be involved!! The last shot might be the most useful to you.

Eventually on TJMK there'll be a bunch of other shots of the t-junction. Sorry to have not got round to processing them yet.
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 844

Location: New York

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 1:59 am   Post subject: Re: Fight   

Corrina wrote:
I don't believe for one second that the police did not notice the mark on Amanda's neck. What I believe is that Mignini's long leg is showing more and more.


I seem to recall that months ago we had a link here to a shot of that mark on Amanda's neck.

Michael was it you? Or Kermit? Not in my collection. I wish it was.
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Offline DeathFish 2000


User avatar


Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:53 pm

Posts: 340

Location: UK

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 2:20 am   Post subject:    

Pete,
Is it the one further up on this page posted on 22 Nov you refer to?

_________________
R.I.P
Meredith Kercher.
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Offline Jools


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 12:34 pm   Post subject:    

From Corriere della Sera.
Advance to CORRIERE MAGAZINE: A NEW BOOK reveals the OBSCURE SIDES OF THE ACCUSED
The crime of Perugia
and Amanda's secrets
The brave nights. The hangover. The reflections from prison. The sfoghi Raffaele urge and the flight of Rudy Guédé.

http://tinyurl.com/6btdma

Parts of AK's diary from before Italy. No doubt most of us will agree with her that Chris is an...

This is a Google translation, Nicki, Bolint can anybody help in translating this article please.


"IL DIARIO DI “VISO D'ANGELO”
Quando ti hanno arrestato, nella tua borsa hanno trovato tre blocchi. Sono il tuo diario. Non lo ha mai letto nessuno. Contiene i tuoi pensieri più segreti, le tue riflessioni, le tue fantasie.
"Quaderno di colore verde chiaro”, è specificato nel rapporto di polizia che elenca gli atti sequestrati. Parte dal 6 agosto 2007, prima del tuo arrivo a Perugia, prima che cominciassero questi due mesi che a ripercorrerli adesso sembrano più intensi di una vita intera. Sono pagine fitte di appunti che servono a ricostruire la tua personalità complessa, i tuoi desideri, i tuoi vizi. Alcool, sesso.
C’è il racconto di alcuni giorni trascorsi in campeggio con la tua famiglia, vacanze apparentemente normali che comunque non ti impediscono di lasciarti andare.

"Obviously Chris is doing irritates me because it is an asshole and then I go on. After I apologized for mum essermene left while they were mounting a tent, but I do not want to stay to hear me say that is a blunt delayed mental ... When I am responsible for what surrounds me (when I have the authority mom) does not exhaust my frustration about people I love most. So yesterday I was a little 'drunk and I called is that Seliber Dj. I can not wait to see them both. Are my "boys". I love them. What we really should do is to study because there is still some 'light. I tried last night but I stopped early because I want to avoid as much as possible the weight of glasses. And I was tired. And I was drunk. I go back and forth drunk. It's fun, but there are better ways to have fun that are not dangerous to their physical health and emotional ...

Le ultime pagine le hai scritte dopo l’omicidio di Meredith. Una, appena arrivata in questura, dopo il ritrovamento del suo cadavere.

E così sono alla stazione di polizia in questo momento, dopo una lunga giornata passata a raccontare come io sia stata la prima persona ad arrivare a casa e a trovare la mia compagna morta. La cosa strana è che tutto ciò che voglio fare in questo momento è scrivere una canzone su questo. Sarebbe la prima canzone che io abbia scritto e parlerebbe di qualcuno che è morto in modo orribile e per nessun motivo. Quanto è morboso tutto ciò? Sto morendo di fame. E vorrei tanto dire che potrei uccidere per una pizza, ma è solo che non sembra giusto. Laura e Filomena sono piuttosto sconvolte. Anche Raffaele. Io sono arrabbiata. All'inizio ero spaventata, poi triste, poi confusa, poi incazzata nera e ora… non so. Non riesco proprio a concentrami con la mente. Non ho visto il suo corpo e non ho visto il suo sangue perciò è quasi come se non fosse successo. Ma è successo, proprio nella camera accanto alla mia. Il sangue era nel bagno che ho usato per farmi la doccia oggi. La porta di casa era aperta a causa del vento e io ora sono senza una casa, senza più una persona che era parte della mia vita e non so che cosa fare o pensare.

È un diario nuovo. Scandisce le tue giornate. Ti aiuta a sopravvivere. Hai cominciato a scriverlo l’8 novembre, due giorni dopo l'arresto “perché voglio ricordare”. E poi hai continuato:
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Offline indie


User avatar


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:15 am

Posts: 383

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 2:18 pm   Post subject:    

DeathFish 2000 wrote:
Pete,
Is it the one further up on this page posted on 22 Nov you refer to?



Also Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:12 pm Post subject: scratch mark,

guermantes wrote:
Nick Pisa wrote:

Quote:
Murder suspect Amanda Knox had a cut on her neck according to her flatmate who saw her after the body of murdered student Meredith Kercher was discovered, it emerged today.
A prosecution source said: 'The flatmate's recollection of the scratch on Amanda Knox's throat is very significant. Was it there as a result of attempts by Meredith to defend herself?'


We have known about the red mark on Amanda's neck for a long time. This photo had already been reposted several times in the past.



Quote:
'The cut was missed by police..."


They should have asked us I guess...



And Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 7:23 am Brian S posted this:


Brian S. wrote:
Guermantes wrote:
We have known about the red mark on Amanda's neck for a long time. This photo had already been reposted several times in the past.


And here it is again on the front page of Il Giornal Dell'Umbria, complete with the red mark ringed.
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Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 3:47 pm   Post subject: Re: Crime Scene Assessment   

Anastasia wrote:
Michael wrote:
Anastasia wrote:
And yes, I did ask about the crime scene assessment you wrote back in January. The one you were going to post on IW but she wouldnt let you post part 2. That was the one I was talking about. I think we are on the same page here


Yes, that's the one, I'll have it posted up by tomorrow. I'll zip a package that also contains the photos I used :)


Thats great Michael
And thanks, I look forward to reading it finally :)

Anastasia


Hi Anastasia,

F.Y.I (and anyone else who may be interested), my Crime Scene Assessment from January 2007 is now uploaded and you can find it here, in the 'Media' forum:
CRIME SCENE ASSESSMENT

Please let me know if it downloads properly and contains all it should. I'd also be interested in your impressions.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline Michael

Site Admin


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Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 6:05 pm   Post subject: New Post by Nicki on TJMK   

Excellent new post by Nicki, covering the Italian judicial process, on TJMK

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 6:27 pm   Post subject:    

Hi all,
I'm on vacation this week but will check in daily. Keep up the good work. The West Seattle blog also covered the fundraiser. Last time I looked there were no comments - but there is a space for them.

_________________
Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point; on le sait en mille choses.
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Offline Jools


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:44 pm   Post subject:    

Knox's parents talk about latest court setback

10:47 AM PST on Wednesday, November 26, 2008
By LINDA BYRON / KING 5 News
SEATTLE - In a Seattle living room, Curt Knox and Edda Mellas pour over pictures of their daughter, Amanda.

http://tinyurl.com/6h5rzz

Same old boring staff... The satanic rite and the international press, blah,blah,blah
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Offline DeathFish 2000


User avatar


Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:53 pm

Posts: 340

Location: UK

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:55 pm   Post subject:    

Jools,
I never saw anything in the article regarding Edda's toyboy husband Chris Mellas keeping himself busy on the internet insulting supporters of the victim and her family.
Ah well, I guess they wouldn't have given the interview if they had to be impartial.

_________________
R.I.P
Meredith Kercher.
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Offline cindy


Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:57 pm

Posts: 26

Location: spain

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:32 pm   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Hi all,
I'm on vacation this week but will check in daily. Keep up the good work. The West Seattle blog also covered the fundraiser. Last time I looked there were no comments - but there is a space for them.


skep....have a nice week!

Several women appeared in court, each accusing the others of
causing the trouble they were having in the apartment
building where they lived.
The women were arguing noisily even in the court.
The judge, banging his gavel to quiet them, said, "We are
going to do this in an orderly manner. I can't listen to all
of you at once. I'll hear the oldest first."
The case was dismissed for lack of testimony.

HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO ALL....A DAY TO REST, RELAX AND ENJOY FAMILY OR FRIENDS....
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Offline Anastasia


Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:13 pm

Posts: 47

Location: Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:55 pm   Post subject: Re: Crime Scene Assessment   

Michael wrote:
Anastasia wrote:
Michael wrote:
Anastasia wrote:
And yes, I did ask about the crime scene assessment you wrote back in January. The one you were going to post on IW but she wouldnt let you post part 2. That was the one I was talking about. I think we are on the same page here


Yes, that's the one, I'll have it posted up by tomorrow. I'll zip a package that also contains the photos I used :)


Thats great Michael
And thanks, I look forward to reading it finally :)

Anastasia


Hi Anastasia,

F.Y.I (and anyone else who may be interested), my Crime Scene Assessment from January 2007 is now uploaded and you can find it here, in the 'Media' forum:
CRIME SCENE ASSESSMENT

Please let me know if it downloads properly and contains all it should. I'd also be interested in your impressions.


Hi Michael
I was able to open up everything just fine, and I am going to read it over a few more times and look at the same photos I have in photoshop, I cleaned & sharpened them up a bit, mainly because of what I 'thought' I saw on the pillow a few months back, and you have confirmed it, I was very chilled to the bone when I saw it and didnt want to think thats what it was, but it sure seems to be. Very sad.
So after I read your assessment a few more times, I will be able to comment more fully. But so far every thing feels dead on in what you write.
Thanks
Anastasia
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Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 2:35 am   Post subject: Re: Crime Scene Assessment   

Anastasia wrote:
Hi Michael
I was able to open up everything just fine, and I am going to read it over a few more times and look at the same photos I have in photoshop, I cleaned & sharpened them up a bit, mainly because of what I 'thought' I saw on the pillow a few months back, and you have confirmed it, I was very chilled to the bone when I saw it and didnt want to think thats what it was, but it sure seems to be. Very sad.
So after I read your assessment a few more times, I will be able to comment more fully. But so far every thing feels dead on in what you write.
Thanks
Anastasia


Hi Anastasia :)

I'm glad it all works. It's interesting that you found the pillow of interest too some months ago, enough to enhance the pictures (you might consider loading those up :) ) and it serves to emphasis the fact that the pillow is worthy of close scrutiny, still, after all this time. There certainly is a mystery surrounding that pillow. I only hope I'm wrong about what the solution to that mystery is.


Skep -

Have a great vacation and stay safe. I look forward to you getting back.


All our American members and visitors -

Happy Thanksgiving to you all from P.M.F...have a nice day :)

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES


Last edited by Michael on Thu Nov 27, 2008 8:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Michael

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

Posts: 16732

Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 3:04 am   Post subject: Paranoia Much?   

Dempsey wrote:
Posted by Candace Dempsey at 11/26/08 4:24 p.m. #222008


Cherchez, I'm not sure you want this for a nice reason. It sounds very like an obsession on a certain message board. I would hate to feed an obsession, especially the night before Thanksgiving. To be brief before moving on:...



cherchezlafemme wrote:
Posted by cherchezlafemme at 11/26/08 5:44 p.m. #222035


First, thank you Candace.
I really, really think you must be confusing me with French Woman or someone else. I've never asked this question on any blog, message board. I don't really follow blogs/message boards, but I did follow this one for many weeks earlier this year , before registration was required.
Really I'm not French Woman and I've never posted before under any other name. I really don't know why I first was "busted" here on for "my age" and then I'm called obsessed. I came here because I thought the trial was going to start on December 4.

I don't know what to say, guys. Except, thanks for not exactly the warmest of welcomes :(

I'm not up on my facts as the rest of you, and I'm sorry if I asked a question, but it was just something I've always wanted to know.
I don't think it's that off topic, is it?

Because I actually did read about this case in the beginning. And words and testimony and understanding and remembering are what made this case stand out early on.
Truthfully, I still don't understand why I'm feeding or you're feeding an obsession (??????)
but, take care and
Happy Thanksgiving !



Dempsey wrote:
Posted by Candace Dempsey at 11/26/08 6:25 p.m. #222051


Cherchez, I never mistook you for Frenchmom or French Woman (we don't even have a poster by that name). I already said that. But you are not exactly a stranger and not exactly a 20-year-old. If you will scroll back up, you'll see that I never said you asked that question before. I said it was an obsession on other blogs.

But I honestly do wish you a nice Thanksgiving. And thank you for wishing me that. Take care.



THE COOK'S SMOG


And the paranoia on the Dempsey Smog continues. Oh dear. Poor cherchezlafemme, (S)he's been attacked from all sides after making his/her initial post. If you ever get to read this, never mind cherchezlafemme, you are not the first victim of the defensive paranoia there and you won't be the last. You would get a far more hospitable welcome here.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 7:46 am   Post subject:    

On this latest contorversy

Chris (and company) attacked the prosecutors and the other plyayers but for some reason they did it without properly defending their balls.
The prosecutors or the other players fired back by leaking these new diary excerpts.

Now Chris tries to take it easy but it will have an impact.
It's like a valley dam bomb.
When they drop it into the water nothing happens for a while.
Then a crack appears, and so on ...

The trial will be long, Amanda will be convicted in the first degree, then comes the appeal.

Huge amount of energy and money is needed.
In my estimate it will cost USD 500,000 or even more.
It will take a toll on the famlily relations.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:35 am   Post subject:    

As the length of the process is criticised as an Italian anomaly, lets's make a comparison with an American case:

2006 Sept 3: Hans Reiser's (Oakland, CA) wife, Nina, was last seen at Hans's place. No body was found.
2006 Sept 6: Police start to investigate, soon started to suspect Hans who soon refused to cooparate
2006 Oct 10: Hans was arrested, he ask fast track trial and is granted
2006 Dec 11: Preliminary Trial begins
2007 March 9: Preliminary judge decides he must stand trial
2007 March 23: Hans pleads not guilty to another judge
2007 June 11: Trial judge assigned
2007 Nov 6: Trial begins, Hans maintains innocence all the way to the closing arguments
2008 April 28: Verdict: guilty. Sentencing is set to July 9, the minimum mandatory sentence is 25 years to life.
2008 July 7: Two days before sentencing in a kind of post trial plea bargain Hans led police to the place where he had buried his wife
2008 Aug 29: Hans sentenced to 15 years to life
2008 Sept 5 : Hans starts to serve in San Quentin


So the "fast track" trial started 14 month after the murder and sentencing was two years after the murder.
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Offline daisysteiner


Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:59 pm

Posts: 490

PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 10:15 am   Post subject:    

OT: Hi all, haven't posted here much but still reading and loving both here and TJMK. I wanted you to see a post I have just left the lovely Italian woman before she deletes it. Apparently I'm not British. She can tell that from the internets apparently. I may come off as slightly unhinged but the woman makes my blood boil. I really need to wean myself of her blog but it's like crack...vile, poisons your mind but yet you keep on coming back for more punishment. I hope cherchezlafemme comes here to post regardless of her opinions, you peeps are so much better to discuss things with as you will have a discussion rather than closing people down. I hope I have more time to post here in future. x

'Candace, I still read here if I don't post thanks to your amazingly poor & well paranoid attitude. As for "dropping my fake British accent" that shows what you know. Please email me and as I have offered before I will happily give you my real name and Facebook/whatever page so you can work out for yourself whether I really am from Leeds or not, I'll even make you a friend to prove a point. Won't you feel stupid when you realise I am exactly who I say I am. And more to the point, you've managed to slag off the only person who is even tenuously connected to the "victims side" who bothered to make the effort to post here and give you a perspective. Which highlights where your allegiance lie, how much did your soul cost Candace?

cherchezlafemme - I posted here before "the other place" I didn't even know about the other place before Candace paranoia pointed it out. At least they are welcoming regardless of your point of view, and open to discussing things without it them turning like a pack of dogs (they reserve that for special people it seems!). If you believe anything other than Amanda's total innocence, then you must be a sock puppet from the other board. And if you haven't read this within 10 seconds of posting, it'll be gone!'
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Offline daisysteiner


Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:59 pm

Posts: 490

PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 10:18 am   Post subject:    

PS Happy Thanksgiving my American chums! Not entirely sure what Thanksgiving is (yes yes, google is my friend!) but I do know you guys get two Christmas dinners a year thanks to it and that is cool!
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Offline DeathFish 2000


User avatar


Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:53 pm

Posts: 340

Location: UK

PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 6:39 pm   Post subject:    

daisysteiner,
I don't go there but I just clicked on the link Michael posted.
She is quite a mixed up award winning amateur cookery blogger isn't she?
Seems hormonal to me.
I won't comment on the content of the comments she allows to stand there while censoring others but she does seem very sneering in her attitude to other people - and this coming from someone who is writing a book with the sole intention to profit out of Merediths death and the hurt her family have to live through.

I tracked back and read Frog-y-rana's first post and notice she even berates the poor frog for using bold type in parts of the said post !

Then I see the most recent post by Charlie "man never landed on the moon" Wilkes has a paragraph in bold type - but of course, he doesn't have any sneering bile directed at him for doing so.
This is a perfect example of this duplicitous and biased individual who sees herself as a "Marm" type character over and above us all.

_________________
R.I.P
Meredith Kercher.
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Offline daisysteiner


Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:59 pm

Posts: 490

PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 10:32 am   Post subject:    

Thanks DF2K. I couldn't agree more. I look forward to getting back to discussing the trial and ignoring the ridiculous cook.
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Offline guermantes

Links & Gallery Moderator


User avatar


Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:49 am

Posts: 4854

PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 4:38 pm   Post subject: I can't believe my eyes!   

Chris Mellas wrote in the comments section on Frank’s blog:

Quote:
The "scratch/cut/abrasion" (depending on the article)
Amanda had a full physical examination, with photographs, by the police. Funny that they do not list any such evidence.
In reviewing every picture of her from the media, still there is no cut, scratch, or abrasion. In reviewing the exam file, nothing. In asking Amanda, she said that she had nothing. So...perhaps it is just faulty memory on the part of the individual that reported it?
Whatever the case may be...the evidence, photos, and video, do not lie. There is no such injury. Not in the police examination of her or in any other document.

November 25, 2008 9:12 PM


Is he as blind as a bat or blind with rage? Is it called to blind oneself to the facts or to turn a blind eye to his stepdaughter’s faults? Oh, I forgot: love is blind. Or maybe Chris has reached a blind alley.

Something else comes to mind:

Hear, you deaf! And look, you blind, that you may see.
Isaiah 42:18
New American Standard Bible(©1995)

The commentary on 42:16-25 is good too:

Multitudes are ruined for want of observing that which they cannot but see; they perish, not through ignorance, but carelessness. And those not humbled by lesser judgments, must expect greater.

How true.
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Offline Tara


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Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

Posts: 1010

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 5:32 pm   Post subject: Seattle PI Observation   

An article by Levi Pulkkinen titled "Friends of Amanda Rally Around Slaying Suspect" was posted in the Seattle PI last night (11/27/08) at 11:13pm. When I first saw the article late last night, there were 5 comments, one of which directed readers to this site and Pete's True Justice.org site.

I just checked this morning (about 9 hours after the article was first posted), and there are still 5 comments listed in the "Soundoff" section. However, when opening this message appears:

Quote:

! Error: The Sound Off feature is not available for this article.


This is strange because as we know, the PI has discontinued almost all "Soundoff" activity on articles pertaining to this case. Monica Guzman has not allowed comments for quite some time on anything she writes about this case. The usual message that one will encounter is "Comments are disabled for this Soundoff" or, there is simply no "Soundoff" indicated at all. However, one is still able to view what comments have been posted prior to commenting being disabled.

This is not the case for this most recent article. I have never seen the above message. It's also interesting to note that this all happened OVERNIGHT on Thanksgiving night. Is the Seattle PI taking direction from the "high profilers" quoted in the article? I'm just sayin'... :?

Here's the link:

FRIENDS OF AMANDA RALLY
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:53 pm

Posts: 340

Location: UK

PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 5:51 pm   Post subject:    

We are seeing the supporters of the accused murderer - Amanda Knox, get more desperate as her destiny and the truth of her actions get closer into full public view.

They are resorting now to the most heinous below the belt activity one could ever see.

Get ready to see even worse from them, as they will in all probability start to turn on each other as they crash and burn.

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Meredith Kercher.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:28 pm   Post subject: Who says my stomach is fat?   

Hi everyone,
I was just in the neighborhood, so to speak, and wanted to check in. Lots of interesting things happening on the TJMK website and here. Welcome back daisysteiner. Sorry to hear about your unfortunate addiction and hope you can go cold turkey.
Speaking of turkey, I had duck for Thanksgiving. And lots of good wine. Dessert was cheesecake from New York and some kind of homemade Moroccan chocolate and orange cake. Not your traditional fare but quite good.
I'm laughing about "cherchezlafemme," who I fear was probably doomed by the name she/he chose. Judging from CD's comment, in particular the "age-ist" remark, I would say that poor poster was mistaken for me. Anyone who uses a French-sounding name or who mentions French will probably have some explaining to do over there. Daisy, as I recall, your first post referred to the fact that you've been studying French for seven years and that got Funnycat all riled up. She accused you of the horrible sin of being.... skeptical bystander.
Incidentally, cherchez la femme is not really a French expression. I think it is an American invention. It is meaningful, however: "look for the woman." As in, whenever there's trouble, a woman is probably involved.
And one last OT thought before I head out for a walk along a deserted stretch of beach on the Pacific Ocean: I really hate the ads on this board and usually ignore them. But on the day after America's annual pig-out known as Thanksgiving, it is hard to ignore an ad that says "Why is your stomach fat?" I have been trying to suck it in all morning after a heavy meal and it is so demoralizing to have someone inquire!
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:53 pm

Posts: 340

Location: UK

PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 7:02 pm   Post subject: Damiano   

Damiano has some posts up for the first time in ages - apparently the "40 year old" witness is actually a student called Fabio.

http://damiano33.wordpress.com/

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Meredith Kercher.
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Offline Michael

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Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 8:15 pm   Post subject: Re: Who says my stomach is fat?   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Hi everyone,
I was just in the neighborhood, so to speak, and wanted to check in. Lots of interesting things happening on the TJMK website and here. Welcome back daisysteiner. Sorry to hear about your unfortunate addiction and hope you can go cold turkey.
Speaking of turkey, I had duck for Thanksgiving. And lots of good wine. Dessert was cheesecake from New York and some kind of homemade Moroccan chocolate and orange cake. Not your traditional fare but quite good.
I'm laughing about "cherchezlafemme," who I fear was probably doomed by the name she/he chose. Judging from CD's comment, in particular the "age-ist" remark, I would say that poor poster was mistaken for me. Anyone who uses a French-sounding name or who mentions French will probably have some explaining to do over there. Daisy, as I recall, your first post referred to the fact that you've been studying French for seven years and that got Funnycat all riled up. She accused you of the horrible sin of being.... skeptical bystander.
Incidentally, cherchez la femme is not really a French expression. I think it is an American invention. It is meaningful, however: "look for the woman." As in, whenever there's trouble, a woman is probably involved.
And one last OT thought before I head out for a walk along a deserted stretch of beach on the Pacific Ocean: I really hate the ads on this board and usually ignore them. But on the day after America's annual pig-out known as Thanksgiving, it is hard to ignore an ad that says "Why is your stomach fat?" I have been trying to suck it in all morning after a heavy meal and it is so demoralizing to have someone inquire!



Hi Skep, I'm glad to hear you've had a nice Thanksgiving and hope all our other American friends have too :)

For some reason, which I can't for the life of me think of, the Cook seems to think you are desperate to post on her blog, she must do, if she thinks you'd be willing to go as far as to make up aliases to do so. But, as I've said, paranoia seems rife over there. She cannot even bring herself to say the name of our group, yet reads it avidly. But, I do think, just as the paranoia is real, just as much of a reason for their accusing posters of coming from here, is that it is also another useful tactic for running any poster who turns up there and asks awkward questions or expresses an unfavoured perspective, off of the blog or dissuading them from posting in the first place. We know she uses every dirty trick in the book to do that and is constantly trying to find new ones. I can see her book being just as sanitized and unbalanced as her blog, aside from the occassional rant at 'them' of course.

Sorry there's been some ads on the site that have given you the guilts. The first thing I'll say, is you shouldn't even be seeing them Skep. Ads are not displayed to logged in Admins (it's a built in part of the software). However, there is a bug which means on some occassions Admins lose their immunity (the bug's hit me too as I can now see the spaces at least, where the ads are supposed to be). I hate the presence of the ads, as I've put a lot of time into designing the site and they pull that whole design out of shape, (as well as being a general annoyance to members). I also feel it's innapropriate that products/sites are advertised on the central community that is meant to be focused solely on Meredith Kercher and it's not as though she, her family or the site benefits in any way from their presence. My advice to everyone, is to use a Hosts file, MVPS Hosts, then you won't see the ads. There is an alternative which I'm currently considering.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline Michael

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Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:06 pm

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Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 8:32 pm   Post subject: Re: Seattle PI Observation   

Tara wrote:
An article by Levi Pulkkinen titled "Friends of Amanda Rally Around Slaying Suspect" was posted in the Seattle PI last night (11/27/08) at 11:13pm. When I first saw the article late last night, there were 5 comments, one of which directed readers to this site and Pete's True Justice.org site.

I just checked this morning (about 9 hours after the article was first posted), and there are still 5 comments listed in the "Soundoff" section. However, when opening this message appears:

Quote:

! Error: The Sound Off feature is not available for this article.


This is strange because as we know, the PI has discontinued almost all "Soundoff" activity on articles pertaining to this case. Monica Guzman has not allowed comments for quite some time on anything she writes about this case. The usual message that one will encounter is "Comments are disabled for this Soundoff" or, there is simply no "Soundoff" indicated at all. However, one is still able to view what comments have been posted prior to commenting being disabled.

This is not the case for this most recent article. I have never seen the above message. It's also interesting to note that this all happened OVERNIGHT on Thanksgiving night. Is the Seattle PI taking direction from the "high profilers" quoted in the article? I'm just sayin'... :?

Here's the link:

FRIENDS OF AMANDA RALLY


Hi Tara :)

Yes I saw that. I keep thinking that I'm very lucky that I'm not a criminal being judged in court by Heavey, as the man appears to lack 'any' level of wisdom, or imagination for that matter. I mean, he applies justice upon people so they can learn a lesson, yet fails to learn any of his own. One would have thought that he at least would have learned to keep his mouth shut in regard to slagging off the ILE, but no, despite the harm it's done Amanda and the image of his city/country, still he/they persist with the same plan, the same failed tactic. I also note, it's like he's reading from a script. I've heard the same lines pushed by Knox supporters on the blogs for months. Do they send out memos or something?

I'm also getting a bit sick of the media constantly plugging their fund raising site. Especially as those reporters can hardly seem to bring themselves to mention Meredith...'the VICTIM', more then once in their reports and she's lucky if she gets even that. It seems to me to be most 'un-American', a people that normally reserve their sympathies for the victim/s.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES


Last edited by Michael on Fri Nov 28, 2008 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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Location: UK

PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 8:36 pm   Post subject:    

Heavey lives 4 doors down from the Mellas clan.
2+2=4.

_________________
R.I.P
Meredith Kercher.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 2:52 pm   Post subject:    

Judge Heavey is also on the witness list of the Amanda defense (among Edda, Filomena, Laura and the four boys in the house and others).

Messaggero Umbria:

"Nell'elenco depositato dalla difesa della Knox, tra gli altri, le due coinquiline italiane della giovane e della Kercher nonchè gli studenti che occupavano l'appartamento sottostante a quello del delitto e le amiche inglesi di Mez. Quindi c’è un giudice americano Michael J. Heavey, giudice della Corte d'appello dello Stato di Washington, intervenuto più volte sul caso dell'omicidio di Mez.
Il giudice Heavey, che dice di parlare in completa autonomia rispetto ai genitori di Amanda e ai suoi legali italiani, scrisse una lettera al collega italiano Giuliano Mignini, il sostituto procuratore che ha condotto le indagini, per perorare la causa della giovane americana."

http://sfoglia.ilmessaggero.it/view.php ... e=STANDARD
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Offline Kermit


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Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:37 am

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:57 pm   Post subject: FLYING ABOVE THE LAW   

bolint wrote:
Judge Heavey is also on the witness list of the Amanda defense


I hope that when Heavey travels to Italy that in his hand luggage he carries the proof needed to back up these sorts of statements: "Judge Claudia Matteini participated in this false speculation.... I respectfully submit that the prosecutor’s office, police and prison employees have made illegal and false statements to the press."

Otherwise, he may have to get fingerprinted on the way to the courthouse.

Judge Heavey should consider before embarking on his flight that Lawyer Luciano Ghirga impressed upon Amanda how seriously false accusations are viewed in Italy. What applies to Amanda also applies to any other Italian or non-Italian.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 5:09 pm   Post subject: We want your money, not your criticism   

Michael wrote:

Quote:
I'm also getting a bit sick of the media constantly plugging their fund raising site. Especially as those reporters can hardly seem to bring themselves to mention Meredith...'the VICTIM', more then once in their reports and she's lucky if she gets even that. It seems to me to be most 'un-American', a people that normally reserve their sympathies for the victim/s.


From that perspective, it has been a resounding success. And since the main goal is probably publicity, with the collection of funds merely icing on the cake, then some success has been achieved. However, yet again, when the information is posted online and the real public weighs in, we see that public opinion tends to be highly critical of the idea of raising funds under the circumstances. Many of the people who comment state that if there is going to be a fund, it should benefit the victim, Meredith Kercher, or that the idea of hitting up strangers for money is questionable, or that there are many other, more worthy causes deserving of public generosity. And those are the kindest comments.

As we have seen before, after a few days of open comments, somebody shuts down the process.
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Offline Kermit


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Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:37 am

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 5:26 pm   Post subject: FLYING ABOVE THE LAW - OFFICIAL BUSINESS   

Here's a brief lesson in looking at original documentation. The quote in my prior post by Heavey about illegalities in the investigation was picked up from the English translation of his letter on Bremner's website. If you click on the link to the original document in Italian, you see this PDF.

I hadn't looked at the original document before. What surprised me a little is that he wrote it on "Superior Court of the State of Washington" letterhead, complete with his professional e-mail. Some of the anonymous supporters of his misguided intervention claimed that he was just another American exercising his constitutional right to free speech. I would say that in addition to that, he was making a representation from the State of Washington judiciary, which is exactly one of the things that Judge Micheli took into account in his decision to keep Amanda in prison.

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Offline nicki

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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:27 am

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 8:06 pm   Post subject: Re: FLYING ABOVE THE LAW - OFFICIAL BUSINESS   

Kermit wrote:
Here's a brief lesson in looking at original documentation. The quote in my prior post by Heavey about illegalities in the investigation was picked up from the English translation of his letter on Bremner's website. If you click on the link to the original document in Italian, you see this PDF.

I hadn't looked at the original document before. What surprised me a little is that he wrote it on "Superior Court of the State of Washington" letterhead, complete with his professional e-mail. Some of the anonymous supporters of his misguided intervention claimed that he was just another American exercising his constitutional right to free speech. I would say that in addition to that, he was making a representation from the State of Washington judiciary, which is exactly one of the things that Judge Micheli took into account in his decision to keep Amanda in prison.



WOW Kermit,

I hadn't see the original Italian version, thanks for posting it. All I can say is that the Judge makes such direct and precise accusations-so much beyond "freedom of speech" that someone might just decide to sue him. So I agree he should carefully evaluate any possible outcome, before boarding that flight to Perugia.
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Offline DLW


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:41 pm

Posts: 623

PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 8:32 pm   Post subject:    

Amanda said:

“I went into the house and closed the door… I went to my room, got undressed, went into the bathroom and had a shower….and I used the bathmat, on which there was blood, because I’d left the towels in the bedroom. I saw the blood on the bathmat and I dragged it into the bedroom to get the towels, then, I took it back to the bathroom and put my earrings in.. I saw the blood on the bathmat and in the washbasin but I didn’t think something terrible had happened.’ …Giornale dell’Umbria. 27 November 2008...Damiano’s weblog

OK, this makes some sense. Amanda got on the bathmat after taking a shower. In order to keep the bottom of her feet from getting dirty again, she was able to jostle the bathmat into her bedroom and got redressed . So this explains why the floor appeared mopped. The floor wasn’t actual mopped, it was just bathmatted. This also explains some of the missing footprints. And when she was putting in some of her dozen earrings , it started bleeding on the sink fixtures. By the time she was done sprucing up her hair, she noticed the blood in the sink. So the blood on the bathmat wouldn’t have been a big deal. It wasn’t until discussing this with Raff over a casual lunch, he thought he better have a look.

This sounds like the beginning of a plan. Have to work on a few details, maybe rethink the size of the foot imprint. Hand it to the judge at the trial, and see what he thinks.

And

‘Rudy Guédé, the Ivorian sentenced to 30 years for the murder of Meredith Kercher, is no longer locked in prison in Perugia, but in that of Viterbo.
The transfer was made today by its defenders, who talked of a decision in any way provided in falls in the normal conduct of the prisoner after the sentencing of First Instance‘…tamtam.

The Viterbo facility is listed as a top security prison, and located about 60 mi. south of Perugia.
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 8:34 pm   Post subject:    

Before judge Michael Heavey boards any plane, he should publicly apologise to Meredith's family for making his deeply offensive comments that there was no evidence of sexual violence.
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Offline Jools


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:15 pm   Post subject: Who leaked the diary?   

Hola Kermit,

Thank you for posting Heavey's letter with copy of diary.

I was just looking at the copy of the diary that the Seattle judge attached to his letter. I also looked at Frank’s photo of the same diary page that he posted on June 26 in his ‘Happiness in Hell’ post.

Both Heavey and Frank acknowledge that they have seen the names of AK’s sexual partners, so both copies must have been given or leaked to them showing all names. Also both have the said names hidden. Heavey’s copy we can presume was given to him by Knox/Mellas family and Frank’s copy, well, we don’t know how he got it, but he likes to say that he is ‘got the case’ and gets all the ‘scoops’.

So, both copies have hidden names in a similar way?. The judge’s one seems to have been done with a dark felt tip pen and Frank’s probably Tipex.

I doubt this is a coincidence...

If you look at the outline (perimeter) of the attempt to hide the 7 names and compare both copies it seems to me that it is exactly the same, this can only mean that Frank got his copy from the same source as the judge.

The judge can blame Nick Pisa or the ILE as much as he likes for leaking the diary on the STD story but the only ones to have posted actual copies of it on the Internet are Heavey and Frank Sfarzo, and both of them got the diary page from the Knox/Mellas. :roll:
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 11:13 pm   Post subject:    

"Amanda aveva avuto sette amanti italiani in sessanta giorni? NO. Aveva contratto una malattia di origine sessuale? NO. Nondimeno le era stato detto di essere risultata positiva al test HIV"


OMG, here we go again, one would think that a Judge would do some research before writing to the top judicial personalities and to the Prime Minister of a foreign country. He would have saved himself to look like a fool, if nothing else.

Its obvious that Judge Heavy ignores that HIV screening tests may yield false positive or unclear results-eg when OD's readings are close or around cut-off values. When this happen a confirmation test by Western blot is run. Patients must be informed when screening results are unclear, in order to let them know that they might be positive to HIV, and that a second test must be performed in order to either exclude or confirm positivity What Knox got is the same treatment any blood donor, pregnant woman, patient awaiting surgery, or other inmate would get.
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Offline Bluetit


Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:01 am

Posts: 39

Location: France

PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 11:48 pm   Post subject: "And the mother?"   

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/
us_and_americas/article5258040.ece

From The Sunday Times - November 30, 2008 (John Follain)

"Diary reveals Foxy Knoxy’s sex secrets
A book explores the desires of the student accused of killing her UK housemate"

So much for the Virgin Mary image ...

But never mind that.

What really intrigued me was (near the end) this question (bold) :

" But I imagine more what she went through when the blood went out of her. What did she feel? And the mother? Desperation? Did she have the time to find peace or in the end did she have only terror? "

I don't think I had read that before.

What do you think AK meant with this "And the mother ?" It sounds very strange in this context. I can't imagine, however, what translator's mistake might be involved ...
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