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V. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 2 - Dec 31, 08

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:06 pm   Post subject: Or that my sister is one   

Bolint wrote:

Quote:
"and have never as far as I know seen a member of the postal police. "

But if you ever happen to see one, for God's sake, don't tell him that you have already called the carabinieri.



Or that my sister is one! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:24 pm   Post subject:    

Speaking of police cars, here is a link to a photo of one that was guarding the cottage on Nov 7, 2007:

http://tinyurl.com/54wwy9


I am not going to post the actual photo because it is marked as not for public use or something like that. It is a blue car; I'm trying to blow it up and see what it is.

This would not be the postal police, however.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:30 pm   Post subject: Wikipedia to the rescue   

Make of this what you will, from Wikipedia (emphasis mine):


Until recently, all Italian police forces were equipped with Italian-made police cars. The most famous of them, the Alfa Romeo Giulia, gave the nicknames of the cars still commonly used today. A patrol car belonging to Polizia is nicknamed Pantera (Panther), one used by the Carabinieri is nicknamed Gazzella (Gazelle) and every unmarked car is called a Civetta (Owl).

Every force has also helicopters, trucks and campers (used as mobile offices usually in undercover missions). In Venice, which is built across several islands linked by bridges and surrounded by water, public security and fire brigades work with boats. In 2004, Lamborghini donated two Lamborghini Gallardo police cars - fully equipped with lights and sirens and capable of travelling at almost 310 km/h - to the state police on the occasion of their 152nd anniversary. This car is used for fast delivery of plasma and organs for transplantation.

Arma dei Carabinieri patrol vehicles are very dark blue (almost black) with a red stripe along the side. Their normal civilian law enforcement vehicles have registration plates beginning with "CC" whereas vehicles for military police duties have military plates beginning with "EI".
Guardia di Finanza vehicles are dove grey or dark blue with a thin gold stripe along each side and the words Guardia di Finanza in gold underneath. The vehicle plates begin with the letters “GdiF” in red.
Polizia di Stato vehicles are light blue with a white stripe along the side and the word Polizia in large letters underneath. The license plates also start with the word Polizia in red usually followed by a letter and four numbers.
Polizia Penitenziaria vehicles are dark blue with a light blue stripe along the side and Polizia Penitenziaria in white letters under the stripe.
Corpo Forestale dello Stato vehicles are green with a white stripe and the words Corpo Forestale dello Stato in white along the side. The vehicle plates begin with the letters “CF” in red.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:31 pm   Post subject: Re: Links   

"I keep going back to the idea that Raffaele and Rudy lived exactly 129 steps' distance from one another (though not on the same street)."

Yes, but Rudy lived there only since September. Till August he was in Milan, I think.
About that time started he his (yet petty) criminal career.
Now some say that he had never been convicted, etc.
That is true, but his life changed a lot in July or early August when he lost all support.
Suddenly he had to live on his own and he failed.
I think that at the end of October a big problem was for him to pay the rent.
So in my opinion he stole the 250 euros, whatever happened in the cottage.
That's why he felt so important to provide an explanation for the theft in his tales, though at that time not much talk was about the money in the news.
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:39 pm   Post subject: Re: Links   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
I too think that establishing the link between the three protagonists is one of the prosecutor's biggest challenges. I keep going back to the idea that Raffaele and Rudy lived exactly 129 steps' distance from one another (though not on the same street). Did they know one another? Did Raffaele buy drugs from Rudy or did they both know the same dealer? Rudy never mentions Raffaele in his German prison narrative; but he mentions Amanda.


The prosecution will not only demonstrate there is a link between the three suspects, but also prove it too. There is a total of 23 separate pieces of forensic evidence linking the the three suspects to the crime.

All three suspects were in Meredith's room and involved in her murder. Raffaele's DNA on Meredith cut and bloodied bra, places him in Meredith's room, and Amanda's and Meredith's DNA on the double DNA knife places Amanda in Meredith's room, stabbing her. Amanda's bare bloody footprints in Meredith's blood also places her at the cottage at the time of the murder. Amanda's handwritten note to the police on 6 November confirms that she was present when Meredith was murdered. Rudy confirmed Amanda and Raffaele were there too. That's one part of his testimony that is true.

Amanda and Raffaele both knew details about Meredith's body that nobody could have known unless they were present when Meredith was murdered. All this evidence puts all three suspects together in Meredith's room.

Judge Paolo Micheli didn't seem to be concerned about proving there was a conspiracy between the three suspects and he took a different starting point:

"I took the opposite approach to that of the defence teams. The lawyers claimed that there was no proof of conspiracy between the three because they didn’t know each other and Kokomani’s testimony wasn’t reliable. They also said that it would have been impossible for them to have organised the crime since they had previous commitments which then fell through. My starting point was the three’s presence in the room where the crime was committed."

Candace Dempsey has thrown a hissy fit on her blog because one of the posters, Frog-y-rana doesn't agree with her and we all know what happens when somebody doesn't agree with her:

"I have deleted your nasty remark about how I must have known Charlie belonged to the support group. Why then would I say they don't post here? I'm sure Finn was under the same impression, otherwise he would have addressed Charlie directly."

It seems you can't criticise Anne Bremner and judge Heavey either. I wonder why?:

"I weary of your personal attacks on Anne Bremner and Judge Heavey. They've become tedious. If you wrote under your own name, I'm sure we could find some tiny flaw in your life story to get all sinister about--if we wanted to get that ugly. But I don't. It's my blog, not the Rush Limbaugh show. Take it somewhere else."
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:07 pm   Post subject: Re: Links   

bolint wrote:
"I keep going back to the idea that Raffaele and Rudy lived exactly 129 steps' distance from one another (though not on the same street)."

Yes, but Rudy lived there only since September. Till August he was in Milan, I think.
About that time started he his (yet petty) criminal career.
Now some say that he had never been convicted, etc.
That is true, but his life changed a lot in July or early August when he lost all support.
Suddenly he had to live on his own and he failed.
I think that at the end of October a big problem was for him to pay the rent.
So in my opinion he stole the 250 euros, whatever happened in the cottage.
That's why he felt so important to provide an explanation for the theft in his tales, though at that time not much talk was about the money in the news.


Hi Bolint,

Can you explain please if you know.
You think Rudy stole the money?
But he was sentence by the Gup for murder and not the theft charge so I take it that he was clear of that.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:19 pm   Post subject: The Green Peugeot   

I don't mean to sow confusion, but looking at the first ASCA release (provided by DLW) and then the second one (which I provide in part), I think that the dark green Peugeot spotted in the cottage driveway was seen before or around midnight and not at noon the next morning or at any time the next morning (although it may have been after midnight?). Anyway, make of my quick and certainly perfectible translation of the article what you will. Emphasis below is provided by me:


ASCA) - Perugia, Nov. 10 - 'A man and a woman who argued before the 23, then the scream of a person suffering and an old Peugeot - 106 or 205 - dark green, firm in the yard of the house before finding Meredith the corpse. These are the new elements provided by three witnesses who, after having reported as seen and heard in the Journal of Umbria, have placed in Prosecutor (Pm Mignini the secrets of their statements) before pm following the case. This morning, the newspaper Umbria, in the first, second and third page is reconstructed the murder of Meredith Kercher with articles referring to the testimony of Clochard Grimana streets (1) to the bedside lady who has heard more 'people fleeing (immediately gave testimony ) And these new people informed of the facts, the same Antonio Curatolo (more witness who said he saw Amanda and Raffaele still before the house the night of Nov. 1 2007) have reported that the magistrate, one year after 'murder of Via della Pergola-Viale Sant'Antonio. Testimonials considered attractive''by investigators because 'the one hand complete the reconstruction of the story and match to perfection - stresses a note of the Journal of Umbria - with a history of other witnesses made to magistrates and the time of death Meredith decreed dall'autopsia, while the other (the identification of the car) opened up new avenues for investigation investigators''. The first witness says he saw an old Peugeot model, a 205 or 106 in the yard of the house of crime on the morning of Nov. 2. A car''or more green bottle 'darker, which in front of the house around noon''. Then a crime occurred, but before the police arrived in home and discovered the corpse of Mez.'


Here is the later release:

A detail considered to be interesting, a circumstance that bears further examination. Who does the car belong to? A legitimate question, as there are legitimate new details. Start of the trial for Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, suspected of sexual violence and homicide, on December 4. As for Rudy Guede, already tried on a fast track trial and sentence to 30 years prison by Judge Paolo Micheli, his lawyers are waiting to receive the grounds of the judge's verdict before filing a formal appeal. The Umbrian daily (whose editor in chief is Giuseppe Castellini) has published an article written by Francesca Bene, Luca Fiorucci and Antioco Fois entitled A Green Peugeot Parked in the Cottage Courtyard, (2) which mentions three witnesses: the first saw the car; the second heard a man and a woman quarreling in Italian, followed by a piercing scream; the third refers to the sound of running footsteps... This happened on the night of November 1-2 between 22:30-23:00... It cannot be ruled out that as further investigations are carried out, the prosecutors Micheli and Comodi could decide to have the witness who heard the argument listen to the voices of the two suspects to see if, even with the passage of time, he is able to recognize them.

(1) Help from someone fluent in Italian would be appreciated here. Who or what is Clochard Grimana streets? Clochard means street or homeless person in French... Is this yet another "Toto" or the very same Antonio Curatolo?

(2) The local team that brought you the book on Meredith, if I am not mistaken.

The second article makes me think that the dark green car was spotted late at night (or after midnight in the wee hours) and not the next day at noon. Can anyone help out here? If so, then it wasn't the postal police vehicle, as Bolint suggested.

Also, there is something in the second article that I have omitted due to translation problems, but I think it has to do with the knife that Raffaele's attorneys found in the bushes in December.

Finally, according to the regional journalists, the prosecution may ask the witness who heard the man and woman arguing to listen to the voices of AK and RS, to see if he recognizes them in spite of the passage of time since that night.
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 11:03 pm   Post subject:    

The "postals"
LOL!!!
Ignorance is bliss.

The eminent google scientist, Dr Funnyrat somehow hasn't googled that the postal police are part of the anti terrorist squad.
How sad.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 11:07 pm   Post subject: True colors   

TM posted:

Quote:
Candace Dempsey has thrown a hissy fit on her blog because one of the posters, Frog-y-rana doesn't agree with her and we all know what happens when somebody doesn't agree with her:

"I have deleted your nasty remark about how I must have known Charlie belonged to the support group. Why then would I say they don't post here? I'm sure Finn was under the same impression, otherwise he would have addressed Charlie directly."

It seems you can't criticise Anne Bremner and judge Heavey either. I wonder why?:

"I weary of your personal attacks on Anne Bremner and Judge Heavey. They've become tedious. If you wrote under your own name, I'm sure we could find some tiny flaw in your life story to get all sinister about--if we wanted to get that ugly. But I don't. It's my blog, not the Rush Limbaugh show. Take it somewhere else."


Wow! This is pretty ugly. I saw the original "nasty remark" and understood that what Frog-y intended was that, if IW did not know about Charlie's affiliation, which he has been pretty open about, then she is probably the only person in the blogosphere. In any case, he did not state that she "must" have known, in the sense that if she says otherwise she is lying. This is the kind of bad faith attitude IW adopts when she knows she is in the wrong but can't "back down," for whatever reason. I think it is an age old problem with her.
Note that her deletion policy comes in handy here, because now readers can't judge for themselves what Frog-y actually did say. And she thinks Mignini employs ethically questionable methods?

As for Frog-y's remarks about Bremner and Heavey -- I am assuming they too have been deleted, so this is all guesswork -- I don't think they fell within the realm of personal attacks. Unless in this case she means referring to them by name, as they themselves do. If so, that hardly qualifies as an attack.

And why should any poster anywhere be brow-beaten because he chooses not to post under his "real" name? People have different reasons for remaining semi-anonymous, and they are usually valid. Candace should take a long, hard look in the mirror before she talks to Frog-y about "getting ugly" like Rush Limbaugh. Oh well, let the reader judge. Except that becomes difficult when the post that triggered the ugliness on the part of the blogmistress gets deleted but the ugliness remains. Like a stain, for all to see.

If you ask me, here's what is really going on: A guy named Frog-y starts posting and, while remaining fully within the rules of the blog, asks hard questions, makes valid points and, worst of all, disagrees with IW. He is polite, logical, persuasive and persistent. And IW hates it. She wants him to go away but he won't. She becomes increasingly agitated and desperate to find a way to get rid of him, which is why she so often opts for a "bad faith" interpretation of what he writes. Finally, she just runs out of patience (waiting for him to commit a sackable offense) and blows up out of sheer frustration. I should know. She called me a "Human Mud Bath."

Again, it's her damn blog and she can do whatever she pleases. The problem is, she can't control how other people will read and judge her own behavior, except for those huddled around the campfire with her. The rest of us are free to think what we want.
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 11:21 pm   Post subject:    

Candace Dempsey has deleted someones post?
Say it aint so!
This can't be right, I have always thought she was a fine upstanding lady.
I am getting really confused here, in fact I think I am but I don't know, there's something in my head that tells me it's true but I just don't know, maybe it's a dream or it could actually be reality - I am very confused about this.
I want to go shopping now.

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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 11:47 pm   Post subject:    

Fast Pete has another piece up on the True Justice For Meredith Kercher:

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 11:59 pm   Post subject: Re: Of knives and shoe boxes   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Tara wrote:

Quote:
Yes, this answers my questions. For the record I have NEVER bleached my knives, and as far as "PCR inhibitors", well, I wouldn't even know where to buy the stuff!!


There have been some lively discussions of knife-bleaching in the past year with respect to this case. You can find them at all the usual places, including previous incarnations of this board. Some cleaning products used in dishwashers contain chlorine bleach in small amounts, but hand-washing products do not. One unanswered question is whether or not Raffaele had a dishwasher. As for bleach, everyone knows -- or should know -- of the dangers of mixing bleach witho other household cleaning products, including hand dishwashing liquid.

IW claimed way back when that it is common to clean knives used on poultry and such with bleach, but I have never in my entire life -- including more than 20 years in France and 2 years in China -- seen anyone actually do this or recommend it. Whatever.

Nicki:
Frank says that, as far as he knows, the knife was placed in the shoe box by investigators, not found there. Is it possible to verify which it is?

Skep:
http://tinyurl.com/5mut4p
From Corriere dell?umbria quoting Judge Micheli:
"...O ancora come si può immaginare che in una scatola da camicia, dove fu repertato più o meno a regola d'arte il coltello..."
"..Or how is it it possible to imagine that in a shirt box, where the knife has been found ..." The verb repertare means to find an object that becomes an exhibit.And the shoe box has turned into a shirt box here. However I've read somewhere that the box said "Guarnera" on it, and this company is a well known shirts manufacturer. I don't think that the police lack plastic bags to store exhibits, especially after reading Micheli' s praises to the professionalism of the scientific police.
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:06 am   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Speaking of police cars, here is a link to a photo of one that was guarding the cottage on Nov 7, 2007:

http://tinyurl.com/54wwy9


I am not going to post the actual photo because it is marked as not for public use or something like that. It is a blue car; I'm trying to blow it up and see what it is.

This would not be the postal police, however.


Skep, this is a Polizia car.
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:38 am   Post subject: Re: Of knives and shoe boxes   

[quote="nickiThe verb repertare means to find an object that becomes an exhibit.And the shoe box has turned into a shirt box here. However I've read somewhere that the box said "Guarnera" on it, and this company is a well known shirts manufacturer. I don't think that the police lack plastic bags to store exhibits, especially after reading Micheli' s praises to the professionalism of the scientific police.[/quote]

Hi Nicki,

As if the forensic police would have put the knife into a shirt box that they found lying around at Raffaele's apartment. It's just another sly attempt to undermine the investigation. Renato Biondo also praised the professionalism of the forensic police. Candace Dempsey was predictably giving this rumour credibility on her blog. She also didn't like the fact that Renato Biondo was allowed to provide independent confirmation that the forensic investigation was carried out correctly and the findings were accurate. It defies belief that she doubts his integrity, yet has no problem when it comes to believing Amanda and Raffaele who have lied repeatedly and deliberatley.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:39 am   Post subject: Car 54, where are you?   

Nicki wrote:

Quote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Speaking of police cars, here is a link to a photo of one that was guarding the cottage on Nov 7, 2007:

http://tinyurl.com/54wwy9


I am not going to post the actual photo because it is marked as not for public use or something like that. It is a blue car; I'm trying to blow it up and see what it is.

This would not be the postal police, however.


Skep, this is a Polizia car.


Thanks, Nicki. It corresponds to that description from wikipedia. Just out of curiosity, do you know what kind of car it is? Also, in wikipedia it says that until recently all Italian LE drove Italian made cars. Does this mean that some are now driving non-Italian made cars? Do you know? It isn't important; I'm just curious. Anyway, I think we have established that the article says the car was parked in the driveway to the cottage after/around midnight, not the next day at noon. I think that was an error. So what kind of cars the police drive is a moot point.
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 2:50 am   Post subject:    

Skep,
Hilarious.
Never heard of or seen that before.
Cleaning cutlery with bleach?
Of course the cook will say this is normal practice and I am sure her sock puppets will agree.
My dear mam would be chuckling in her grave now if I was to say this to her.
In my young life (and I am from a family of 10) stuff like bleach was in the toilet and such.
We all had our turn at washing up and I can assure you (as if you didn't know) bleach was not used for the pots and pans and knives and forks - we just used washing up liquid!
Maybe this concept is a bit hard for some people to get their heads around.
Or maybe they are just corrupt.

_________________
R.I.P
Meredith Kercher.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:04 am   Post subject:    

skep wrote:
The second article makes me think that the dark green car was spotted late at night (or after midnight in the wee hours) and not the next day at noon. Can anyone help out here? If so, then it wasn't the postal police vehicle, as Bolint suggested.


I think I know where this will go.

The witness says it could have been an old Peugeot 106 0r 205???

Bear in mind that all the cars in the following pics have 3 and 5 door versions, hatch or car style:



Late 90's - Peugeot 106



Late 90's - Peugeot 205



Late 90's - VW Golf


Late at night, in the dark, it would be easier to mix up a Peugeot 205 and a VW Golf. They're the same size and very similar in style and shape. The Peugeot 106 is a noticably smaller car than both the others.

Hekuran Kokomani had a dark green VW Golf.
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:17 am   Post subject:    

This my last post on here.
Thank you.

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Meredith Kercher.
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Offline FinnMacCool


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 6:35 am   Post subject: Re: Terms matter   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
About the diary "quote" from Newsweek and elsewhere, which is substantially different from the actual diary. I noted at the time, and have reiterated on several occasions, that the chance of distortion is extremely high when a source text (in this case the actual diary) is translated into a target language (in this case Italian), published in the target language with ellipses (not in and of itself a bad thing), then retranslated back into the source language (from the target language) and published. What I believe is most likely (and I said it at the time) is that the various translations were done by the reporters themselves, rather than by professional translators. Obviously, the quality of the result would depend on their level of fluency in the source language (the language you are translating into). As a professional translator, I can always spot a text that has been translated, especially if it has been translated by an amateur. Most professional translators strive to produce seamless texts, whereby the reader who has no familiarity with the language of the original is not aware that he or she is reading a translation.


I also do some translation work as part of my job. (In fact - hurray for me! - I was away yesterday receiving a prize for a translation I did a few months ago, but it was nothing to do with Italian.)

And of course I'd agree with you about the translation/retranslation manglings that have taken place as people talk about this case.

I think an additional problem is that it's not always clear where a "leak" has come from - and obviously the partiality of the leak might result in pushing the translation in one direction or another.

In this particular case, the version published by Candace Dempsey and the version published in the anglophone news media are so different that it's hard not to suspect that partiality - rather than linguistic incompetence - is at the root of the discrepancies. It's a pity that someone in possession of a copy of the diary (if Candace herself doesn't feel she can do it, then someone closer to Amanda Knox) couldn't release an image file of that section (as has been done with the pointless "seven men I've slept with" story), as this would clear up the confusion.
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:14 am   Post subject:    

DeathFish 2000 wrote:
Skep,
Hilarious.
Never heard of or seen that before.
Cleaning cutlery with bleach?
Of course the cook will say this is normal practice and I am sure her sock puppets will agree.
My dear mam would be chuckling in her grave now if I was to say this to her.
In my young life (and I am from a family of 10) stuff like bleach was in the toilet and such.
We all had our turn at washing up and I can assure you (as if you didn't know) bleach was not used for the pots and pans and knives and forks - we just used washing up liquid!
Maybe this concept is a bit hard for some people to get their heads around.
Or maybe they are just corrupt.


Hi DF2000,
I would say that household use of bleach does not include cutlery nor pots and pans. Supermarkets are full of detergents, that can be used without resorting to add bleach to the washing soluzion in order to have clean forks and knives.
Sorry you don't intend to post here any longer.
Nicki
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:09 pm   Post subject:    

Quote:
Jools wrote:
You think Rudy stole the money?
But he was sentence by the Gup for murder and not the theft charge so I take it that he was clear of that.


I don't think he has been cleared. Just there was not enough evidence to sentence him.
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Offline Tara


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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 2:49 pm   Post subject: Bleach   

Nicki wrote:
Quote:
Hi DF2000,
I would say that household use of bleach does not include cutlery nor pots and pans. Supermarkets are full of detergents, that can be used without resorting to add bleach to the washing soluzion in order to have clean forks and knives.
Sorry you don't intend to post here any longer.
Nicki


Hi Nicki :)

Good point about there being MANY choices available for washing cutlery. In addition, just imagine the clothes you would ruin every time you washed your kitchen items...unless you wore white head to toe or did the dishes naked! :roll:

I wonder if that rumor long ago about someone Googling bleach and blood will slip out at trial?

I echo your sentiments to DEATHFISH 2000 - I'll miss your posts and style!! All the best to you :)
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Offline Kate


Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:03 am

Posts: 1

PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:22 pm   Post subject:    

While we're on the topic, wasn't there something about finding receipts for two bottles of bleach bought from the closest store to RS's place around 9am (i.e. as soon as it opened). As I recall they have proof that the store sold two bottles of bleach (i think they got the receipts from the store ?) but did not know who it was sold to? Surely that would be a relatively easy thing to prove/ disprove, if the shop assistant was able to identify either of the two accused? Although I'm sure they would have a totally illogical explanation for stocking up on bleach the morning after the murder.
Is this just one of the rumours? I've been catching up on all the posts (newbie), and maybe this is no longer a valid point :)
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:20 pm   Post subject: Re: Of knives and shoe boxes   

[quote="The Machine]As if the forensic police would have put the knife into a shirt box that they found lying around at Raffaele's apartment. [/quote]

Still it may happen that this was the case.
This shirt box thing turns up in the recent sentencing where the judge argues against DNS contamination after seizure.

He says:
"O ancora come si può immaginare che in una scatola da camicia, dove fu repertato più o meno a regola d'arte il coltello, sia andato a finire proprio il dna della Kercher?"


He says that "in a shirt box where the knife was secured as an evidence more or less perfectly/professionally".

So he does not specifically say that the knife was found in a shirt box.

They can't put such a big knife simply into a plastic bag so using a box found there is not so absurd. There is a reason for using the qualifier "more or less".

We'll see.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:37 pm   Post subject: Kudos   

Finn wrote:

Quote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
About the diary "quote" from Newsweek and elsewhere, which is substantially different from the actual diary. I noted at the time, and have reiterated on several occasions, that the chance of distortion is extremely high when a source text (in this case the actual diary) is translated into a target language (in this case Italian), published in the target language with ellipses (not in and of itself a bad thing), then retranslated back into the source language (from the target language) and published. What I believe is most likely (and I said it at the time) is that the various translations were done by the reporters themselves, rather than by professional translators. Obviously, the quality of the result would depend on their level of fluency in the source language (the language you are translating into). As a professional translator, I can always spot a text that has been translated, especially if it has been translated by an amateur. Most professional translators strive to produce seamless texts, whereby the reader who has no familiarity with the language of the original is not aware that he or she is reading a translation.


I also do some translation work as part of my job. (In fact - hurray for me! - I was away yesterday receiving a prize for a translation I did a few months ago, but it was nothing to do with Italian.)
And of course I'd agree with you about the translation/retranslation manglings that have taken place as people talk about this case.
I think an additional problem is that it's not always clear where a "leak" has come from - and obviously the partiality of the leak might result in pushing the translation in one direction or another.
In this particular case, the version published by Candace Dempsey and the version published in the anglophone news media are so different that it's hard not to suspect that partiality - rather than linguistic incompetence - is at the root of the discrepancies. It's a pity that someone in possession of a copy of the diary (if Candace herself doesn't feel she can do it, then someone closer to Amanda Knox) couldn't release an image file of that section (as has been done with the pointless "seven men I've slept with" story), as this would clear up the confusion.


First of all, congratulations on the translation prize. We usually toil away in obscurity and take more than our fair share of the blame when things go wrong. It's nice to see a confrère get singled out for kudos!

Second, I think that translation problems (remember the confusion that ensued and that continues to crop up over the mistranslation of the Italian "tampone" (swab) as "tampon" in English?) and the source of the various leaks combine to make this case and its coverage extremely complex.

Third, I think partiality is part of the problem here, but the translation issue cannot be brushed aside. Why did no one ask for an actual copy of the diary page they were quoting from? Then they would have seen the discrepancy immediately. If they received the elliptical quotes in Italian, did it not occur to them that the original had already been translated into another language? If they received them in English from an Italian source, did it not occur to them to inquire whether they were looking at a translation?

In other words, did they not consider the source before publishing the information?

Personally, when I read that passage in Newsweek (which is where I saw it), I recognized it as a translation. Therefore, my guard was up. I never seriously considered that AK really believed the scenario she was describing or even expected her readers, whoever they might be, to believe it either. It did not come off as an affirmative utterance at all. But I freely acknowledge that I am not a typical reader.

I'm not sure this passage or others that have been published will have a huge impact on the trial. Presumably, the document submitted as evidence is the original and the translation has been been done by a court-appointed sworn translator and double-checked.

Things may be different, however, in the court of public opinion. Even there, it has become almost impossible to determine who has contributed the most to any image impairment due to the press coverage of Amanda Knox. I say this because it is obvious that the efforts made by her family, supporters in Seattle and the PR firm the family hired have largely backfired, contributing to the very image impairment they wish to combat. It will be very difficult to mete out punishment and determine damage awards based on proportionate responsibility.

Coverage in the US has been particularly bad, and quite skewered in favor of AK. Her parents have been interviewed at every level, with the focus on making the case for incompetence on the part of the investigators and the idea that basic human rights are denied in Italy. My feeling is that most of the reporting here in America has been lazy and incompetent, in part because those reporting have little or no knowledge of the Italian language. To make matters worse, most don't seem to have tried to reduce the gap by boning up on the Italian criminal justice system.

Finally, as for ownership of the diary itself, US law on the status of property in the hands of individuals taken into custody is quite clear. I assume the same is true in Italy. If Candace does not publish the handwritten page, it is because her source will not allow her to do this, and not because doing so would in any way reveal her source. Frank published a handwritten page.
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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 6:06 pm   Post subject: 100 Witnesses   

Speaking of translations, La Nazoine is reporting there are close to 100 witnesses. Yesterday, we talked about 22!

Is this Google translation correct?

GOOGLE TRANSLATION OF LA NAZOINE
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 6:50 pm   Post subject: What about the bleach?   

Kate wrote:

Quote:
While we're on the topic, wasn't there something about finding receipts for two bottles of bleach bought from the closest store to RS's place around 9am (i.e. as soon as it opened). As I recall they have proof that the store sold two bottles of bleach (i think they got the receipts from the store ?) but did not know who it was sold to? Surely that would be a relatively easy thing to prove/ disprove, if the shop assistant was able to identify either of the two accused? Although I'm sure they would have a totally illogical explanation for stocking up on bleach the morning after the murder.
Is this just one of the rumours? I've been catching up on all the posts (newbie), and maybe this is no longer a valid point.


Hi Kate, and welcome to the board. I must admit that the alleged purchase of two bottles of bleach remains a mystery to me. I have heard/read everything and its polar opposite on the subject. It has been said that two receipts were found in Sollecito's apartment, both dated Nov 2 and clocked at 8:45 and 9:30 (or something like that). It has also been said (by Chris Mellas) that no such receipts were found; it has been said by others that receipts were found, but not for the date in question -- something about a difference in price. I have read as well that two bottles of bleach were confiscated from Sollecito's apartment, one of which was full and one of which was 3/4 full. This information has been interpreted to mean that the knife could not have been bleached to remove traces of DNA, since "so little" bleach was missing. Whoever thinks that has never worked with bleach. A little goes a very long way. I have also read that Sollecito's housekeeper (the Polish witness whose name appeared in the list of 22 that was posted here yesterday) was questioned about the two bleach bottles found in the apartment and stated that she had never used them on the premises nor introduced them.

I only have access to what I have read in the public domain. I don't know the current status of the bleach receipts and bottles. I would bet, however, that Sollecito's housekeeper is not being summoned as a character witness by the defense. :)
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 6:55 pm   Post subject:    

"Is this Google translation correct? "

Well, I wouldn't call it the most correct of them all.

"I pm Giuliano Mignini e Manuela Comodi

I am Giuliano Mignini Comfortable and Manuela"

:D :D
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 7:18 pm   Post subject:    

Tara wrote:

Quote:
Speaking of translations, La Nazoine is reporting there are close to 100 witnesses. Yesterday, we talked about 22!

Is this Google translation correct?


Maybe I misunderstood, but I didn't think the list of 22 provided yesterday was meant to be exhaustive.

As for your question about whether the Google translation is "correct," I would say it is what it is. I laughed when reading the reference to the two PMs in English as "I am Giuliano Mignini Comfortable and Manuela" (for PM Giuliano Mignini and Manuela Comodi).

So starting from there, I have fixed the translation up a bit:

In recent days, prosecutors Mignini and Comodi have again questioned Curatolo (who confirmed that it was on the evening of All Saints) and three other people, and have prepared a list of nearly a hundred witnesses to be filed with the Court of Assizes, where on Dec. 4 the trial of Amanda Knox and Raffaele will begin. They stand accused of having raped and killed Meredith Kercher along with Rudy Guédé, who has already been sentenced to thirty years (for his role in the murder).


The defense team working for the "diabolical girlfriend" are said to want to ban cameras from filming in the courtroom (and not "shooting in the classroom" as the google translation says, although one would hope the team would be against that too). Meredith's family - through its civil lawyer Francesco Maresca - are alleged to have asked that the trial be held behind closed doors (i.e., not open to the public or the media) because of the sexual nature of the crime and to avoid destroying the memory of the English student by showing graphic videos and photos of her body.

The judges will hear only some of the new witnesses who have voluntarily come forward. Investigators are examining the testimony of a man who reports that he heard "a man and a woman arguing in Italian and, shortly thereafter, a heartbreaking cry of pain" between 22.30 and 23:00 on the night of All Saints Day. Another person reports having heard steps in the court of via Melo near the via della Pergola, in the early part of the evening. However, the testimony of the witness who said he saw a car -- an older model Peugeot -- in the yard of the cottage on the morning of Nov. 2 is purportedly not deemed to be relevant.

I'm sure this could be fixed up, but I wanted to stress a couple of things:

1. A lot of this information is given in the conditional tense, so watch out. The writer is hedging her bets and reporting what she has been told, not what is official.

2. The testimony about the car is said to be irrelevant (according to her sources).
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 7:25 pm   Post subject:    

Fast Pete has some big news on TJMK:

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 7:29 pm   Post subject: Re: Of knives and shoe boxes   

bolint wrote:
[


Bolint:

Repertare means to find an object AND secure it. E.g. The verb repertare is also used to describe archaelogical finding such as in : the sword was "repertata" in the tomb of the King". As for the expression "più o meno a regola d'arte" it means " as impeccably as it was possible".
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 7:50 pm   Post subject: Re: 100 Witnesses   

Tara wrote:
Speaking of translations, La Nazoine is reporting there are close to 100 witnesses. Yesterday, we talked about 22!

Is this Google translation correct?

GOOGLE TRANSLATION OF LA NAZOINE


Hi Tara,
Thanks for the link :) it's faster for me to read the Italian version than trying to figure out the Google translation so here's a summary of the main points:

-prosecution is presenting 100 witnesses to ask for hard sentences and close the Kercher case
-Toto is considered very reliable -he has been interrogated again in the last few days and it's confirmed that on the night of Nov 1st he saw Sollecito and Knox going back and forth from the wall where they were sitting to the rail and looking over the direction of Via della Pergola as if they were waiting for someone.
-Nara will be telling the court about the scream and the people (more than one) that she heard running away after the long, piercing scream
-Defense doesn't want TV cameras in the courtroom. The Kerchers attorney would like a close hearing out of respect of Meredith 's memory because slides will be showed of her slaughtered body.
-Presecutors are evaluating the witness saying that he/she heard a man and a woman arguing in Italian
-The witness who reported the old Peugeot parked nearby on the morning of Nov 2 doesn't seem to be reliable
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 7:55 pm   Post subject: thanks, TM   

TM wrote:

Quote:
Fast Pete has some big news on TJMK:

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php


Aside from the reference to the TJMK site as a conspiracy theory blog, this is a good article that will help to raise awareness of the often biased and factually challenged media coverage of this case, especially in the United States.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:18 pm   Post subject: Calling DF2K   

DeathFish 2000 wrote:
This my last post on here.
Thank you.


DF2K???

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:22 pm   Post subject: Welcome Bolint and Kate   

Bolint and Kate,

Welcome to the board from your wayward co-administrator. I'm spread a little thin at the moment, so please forgive my late welcome. I hope you find the site informative and we look forward to your taking part. Any problems at all, please feel free to contact me :)

Michael

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:28 pm   Post subject: Great Powerpoint!   

Nicki,

Thank you for yet another fantastic powerpoint! :)

I think I will have to go through it 3 or 4 times to let things sink in. But then, that is good advice for all the powerpoints.....on each viewing, there's always something one finds one missed. Great work!!!

PS: Frank says he interprets the passage regarding the shirt box to mean the police placed the knife in it.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:31 pm   Post subject: Les imbéciles, in y en a partout   

Nicki wrote:

"Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Yes, by steadfastly insisting that ten minutes is not a long time to be in agony, Candace shows us yet again that she would rather appear bovine and callous than actually admit to having made an error. It baffles me, frankly. She would be wiser to just ignore the criticism and yet she can't...

A popular Italian saying : "la madre degli imbecilli è sempre incinta". Do you have anything similar in French?"


Nicki, I must have missed this when you posted it on Nov 5. I would translate this into French as "la mère des imbéciles est toujours enceinte." It is perfectly comprehensible in French (as it would be in English - the mother of imbeciles is always pregnant), but I had never heard it used as an expression. (What do you think, Bluetit?) There is another expression that comes to mind, though: Il n'y a que les imbéciles qui ne changent pas d'avis. In other words, only imbeciles never change their minds (or their opinions).
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:28 pm   Post subject: ADMINISTRATOR NOTE   

Administrator Note:

New forum created. In light of our recent debate in regard to the validity of data originating from Candace Dempsey as a source, after having given it some thought, I have created a new forum called The Rabbit Hole, symbolised by the White Rabbit Minstrel. Please read the forum's explanation/instruction file here:
THE RABBIT HOLE

Thank You

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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:30 pm   Post subject: Re: Great Powerpoint!   

Michael wrote:
Nicki,

Thank you for yet another fantastic powerpoint! :)

I think I will have to go through it 3 or 4 times to let things sink in. But then, that is good advice for all the powerpoints.....on each viewing, there's always something one finds one missed. Great work!!!

PS: Frank says he interprets the passage regarding the shirt box to mean the police placed the knife in it.


Michael:
Frank's interpretation is indeed a peculiar one, since the verb "repertare" specifically refers to the act of finding and-cataloguing, holding on to-securing- objects from a scene, e.g:"Le ossa di bambini repertati nelle urne sono state riferite a riti sacrificali o a morti naturali premature." The bones of the children found in the urns have been referred to sacrificial rites or natural prematures deaths http://tinyurl.com/66lbdq

Another example of the correct use of the verb repertare:"Non c'è compatibilità tra il campione di sangue repertato sul pick-upToyota e il codice genetico dei genitori di Ilaria Alpi" There is no compatibility between the blood sample found on the Toyota pick up and the genetic code of Ilaria Alpi parents...http://tinyurl.com/6re3u3

Should we " interpret" archaelogists to have found the children bones somewhere and afterwards packed them in the urns? Or that Ilaria Alpi's blood was found somewhere on the crime scene and "packed" in the pick up truck to be sent to the lab to be analized?


Last edited by nicki on Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:36 pm   Post subject: Kelly opens mouth, inserts foot   

Kelly 13 wrote (on the PI reader blog):

"I'm sure Anne Bremner will advise the family that it's a mistake for the defense to try and do the job of the police, and solve the crime."

Is this the same Anne Bremner who is part of the local Seattle defense initiative that Curt Knox dissociated himself from, and that Knox's Italian lawyers scoffed at -- in both cases "on the record"?

So is Anne Bremner advising the family in some unpaid capacity now, kind of like Joe Tacopina claimed to be doing -- for the public record, incidentally -- most recently just before he flew to Rome last April?

And come to think of it, isn't Joe Tacopina also a former legal counselor to none other than Michael Jackson? Do I see a sinister connection here between Anne and Joe? That must be my weakness for conspiracy theories overtaking my brain. Oh, wait, that's the other site. What's it called? True Justice for Meredith Kercher. :)
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:40 pm   Post subject: Re: Great Powerpoint!   

nicki wrote:
Michael wrote:
Nicki,

Thank you for yet another fantastic powerpoint! :)

I think I will have to go through it 3 or 4 times to let things sink in. But then, that is good advice for all the powerpoints.....on each viewing, there's always something one finds one missed. Great work!!!

PS: Frank says he interprets the passage regarding the shirt box to mean the police placed the knife in it.


Michael:
Frank's interpretation is indeed a peculiar one, since the verb "repertare" specifically refers to the act of finding and-cataloguing, holding on to-securing- objects from a scene, e.g:"Le ossa di bambini repertati nelle urne sono state riferite a riti sacrificali o a morti naturali premature." The bones of the children found in the urns have been referred to sacrificial rites or natural prematures deaths http://tinyurl.com/66lbdq

Another example of the correct use of the verb repertare:"Non c'è compatibilità tra il campione di sangue repertato sul pick-upToyota e il codice genetico dei genitori di Ilaria Alpi" There is no compatibility between the blood sample found on the Toyota pick up and the genetic code of Ilaria Alpi parents...http://tinyurl.com/6re3u3

Should we " interpret" archaelogists to have found the children bones somewhere and afterwards packed them in the urns? Or that Ilaria Alpi's blood was found somewhere on the crime scene and "packed" in the pick up truck to be sent to the lab to be analized?


Thank's for that Nicki, I'll put that to Frank :)

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:17 pm   Post subject: Cars   

Quote:
Brian wrote:

Skep wrote:
The second article makes me think that the dark green car was spotted late at night (or after midnight in the wee hours) and not the next day at noon. Can anyone help out here? If so, then it wasn't the postal police vehicle, as Bolint suggested.


I think I know where this will go.
The witness says it could have been an old Peugeot 106 0r 205???


It now looks as if the witness was mistaken or not reliable (still conditional at this point). I've been thinking about the photos of the Peugeot sedans and the VW Passats. While the photos make them look quite similar, my experience of actually seeing them is quite different. For one thing, both have distinctive and quite visible logos, which are very different from one another. Most of the other features (wheel hubcaps and headlights, for example) are also different.

In any case, it may not matter now. And did this alleged witness say he saw a Peugeot or a car that looked like one? If it was in the morning, as the latest report suggests, it would have been easy to tell the difference.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:46 pm   Post subject: Franky Boy   

Frank says on the shirt box

Frank wrote:
Yes but the language includes improper use of terms and evolves. It's common that a verb used for an operation after a while connotes as well the operation immediately next.
You find and you take note, you find and you take note... until finding can become synonymous of taking note as well. That's why sometimes in their local language they say ho repertato meaning I've recorded and even I've stored. Indeed he criticize them for the way they stored it, in a shirt box, which indeed, as he says (because he wants to be generous) is 'more or less regular' meaning that the police stored it not by protocol.
Or you want to think that he meant that Raffaele and Amanda stored it not by protocol?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 12:17 am   Post subject: Re: Franky Boy   

Michael wrote:
Frank says on the shirt box

Frank wrote:
Yes but the language includes improper use of terms and evolves. It's common that a verb used for an operation after a while connotes as well the operation immediately next.
You find and you take note, you find and you take note... until finding can become synonymous of taking note as well. That's why sometimes in their local language they say ho repertato meaning I've recorded and even I've stored. Indeed he criticize them for the way they stored it, in a shirt box, which indeed, as he says (because he wants to be generous) is 'more or less regular' meaning that the police stored it not by protocol.
Or you want to think that he meant that Raffaele and Amanda stored it not by protocol?


Oh really? So let me see...the original meaning of " REPERTARE" IS TO FIND, but I guess after "You find and you take note, you find and you take note..." in Perugia, the meaning of the verb magically switch to " store". Interesting indeed. Someone should write to the publisher of Zingarelli-Il Dizionario della Lingua Italiana-because I don't think they're aware of it.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:43 am   Post subject: Such a Good Post   

This was such a good post by frog-y-rana, I felt I had to post it here:

frog-y-rana wrote:
Posted by Frog-y-rana at 11/11/08 5:03 p.m.

I really feel a little overwhelmed.

I came here to talk about understanding what happened to Meredith Kercher, and it seems what's important is being proud about being at the top of the hit charts and how there's no other way forward but to win the chess game, no need to discuss anything that's not on the GANTT critical path to achieving the objective of freeing Amanda and Raffaele. And nothing, no bit of evidence, will prevent gaining that objective.

This actually brings up an important aspect to this crime: who gains from interest in this crime. Doug Preston has successfully used discussion boards of the Perugia crime to increase sales of his book with Spezi.

Ciolino and Tacopina and Bremner have gotten media coverage associated with their names and faces.

Tabloids have made lots of sales. And blog advertisers get lots of hits.

Maybe we could just get through the trial, have everyone reply to questions, and allow the judicial jury to ponder the evidence, independently of the chess game, of copyrights, of media stakes.


This was down to, in part, the fact that some random poster had earlier walked in and posted the link to the Croydon Guardian's piece on TJMK that also mentioned a certain frog that makes powerpoints about the case. Candace then felt the need to compete by announcing that her blog was now number 2 (this latter I agree with ;) ) of the SPI's reader blogs...all rather very sad really and plain...toe curling.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:47 am   Post subject: Re: Franky Boy   

nicki wrote:
Michael wrote:
Frank says on the shirt box

Frank wrote:
Yes but the language includes improper use of terms and evolves. It's common that a verb used for an operation after a while connotes as well the operation immediately next.
You find and you take note, you find and you take note... until finding can become synonymous of taking note as well. That's why sometimes in their local language they say ho repertato meaning I've recorded and even I've stored. Indeed he criticize them for the way they stored it, in a shirt box, which indeed, as he says (because he wants to be generous) is 'more or less regular' meaning that the police stored it not by protocol.
Or you want to think that he meant that Raffaele and Amanda stored it not by protocol?


Oh really? So let me see...the original meaning of " REPERTARE" IS TO FIND, but I guess after "You find and you take note, you find and you take note..." in Perugia, the meaning of the verb magically switch to " store". Interesting indeed. Someone should write to the publisher of Zingarelli-Il Dizionario della Lingua Italiana-because I don't think they're aware of it.


Hi Nicki,

Yeah. It seems Frank just desn't want to budge on that one. He's certainly stubborn, if nothing else. It won't matter at the end of the day, I promise you ;)

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"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 2:03 am   Post subject: We're number two, so we try harder   

Michael wrote:

Quote:
This was down to, in part, the fact that some random poster had earlier walked in and posted the link to the Croydon Guardian's piece on TJMK that also mentioned a certain frog that makes powerpoints about the case. Candace then felt the need to compete by announcing that her blog was now number 2 (this latter I agree with ) of the SPI's reader blogs...all rather very sad really and plain...toe curling.


I remember Yogi Berra once remarking that no one ever went anymore to a certain restaurant because it was impossible to get a table there. :)

The PI reader blog in question does now have an annoying pop-up ad that appears when one visits; it seems to be The Economist, suggesting something about the readership. However, I doubt very much the proceeds go to Meredith's family.

As for Candace, what do you expect her to do? Frog-y is just running circles around her. If Kelly 13 is your sharpest ally (Funnycat, where are you?), you are in trouble. Unless it is "tufa," who just figured out that "rana" means "frog" in Spanish.

I think I've seen the pop-up ad one too many times. Please let me know if anything remotely funny is said over there going forward.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:28 am   Post subject: Frank's Banned the Croydon Guardian   

It would appear that Frank has now banned the Croydon Guardian from his site, Meredith Kercher's hometown newspaper. Talk about staking out your colours Frank!!!

_________________
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:00 am   Post subject:    

Painting a picture:

Charges Thrown, Not by the Prosecution

The objective is to demonstrate that serious evidence of the charges against Raffaele Sollecito do not exist, and to try to dismantle the reconstruction of the Prosecution that says the new engineer from Puglia left his DNA on the clasp of the victim’s bra. The final effect is to confuse the situation even more, and to point out that Rudy Guede and Amanda Knox certainly would have been in the house on via della Pergola. With less than 48 hours until the day Judge Paolo Micheli will decide the fates of the three suspects, the war between the defense teams continues without sparing the low blows. The re-reading of the scientific tests has pitted the protagonists of this drama one against the other. Until a few days ago, it seemed Amanda and Raffaele were allied against Rudy, but now it also seems Sollecito wants to put distance between himself and his ex-girlfriend.

A supplement to the scientific tests, presented by the defense some days ago, insists on the “involuntary contamination of evidence,” affirming that there were at least “three different DNA traces on the clasp,” and the extra two are from Knox and Guede. This part of the scientific exam points out that when a minimum quantity of biological matter is found, it’s difficult to say to whom it belongs. And it concludes by saying that the DNA attributed to Sollecito “is not absolutely useful at the end of the testing.”....


Translation from Il Messagero - 27 Oct 2008 by Passerotta at Damian's Blog.




What Influenced the Judge

What evidence did the judge consider to be valid? He seems to have been convinced of Amanda and Raffaele’s involvement in the crime by Meredith’s friends’ testimony. The two suspects are believed to have spoken about details of the body that nobody could have known. Also Mrs Capezzali’s testimony was considered to be reliable. She said she heard screams from the house in via della Pergola. Then there’s Amanda’s dna found on the knife, the traces of blood in the bathroom and Raffaele’s dna on the bra clasp. The judge also believed Rudy was an equal accomplice with the other two. However, what seems to have convinced him most of all is the behaviour of the three; the confusion in their memories, the triple versions, trying to ‘cover’ for each other (at least in regard to Raffaele and Amanda).....


Translation of an extract from Il Messaggero - 29 Oct 2008 at Damian's Blog


As part of his ruling Judge Micheli also instructed the prosecution/investigators to reinvestigate and look again at the evidence concerning the whereabouts of RS and AK on the evening of the 1st November. He wanted this done and ready for presentation at the trial.

I've read more than one report since which suggests they may have met with RG at Le Chic.

Since it has become public that Rudy Guede was not with Alex eating a kebap at around 7:30pm on the evening of the murder (Alex denies meeting him at all that day, even the alleged meeting after the murder when Rudy said he went home cleaned up, went to Alex's and on to the disco). Where was he in the hours before and after the murder?

RS and AK themselves say they were wandering around Perugia town centre early in the evening. Their mobile phone record will give an approximate route. Did they meet Rudy on the way? Did they arrange to see him later at Le Chic where Amanda was supposed to be working? Did Amanda meet him at the basketball court before she realised Patrick didn't require her?




That Unbearable Lightness of the Accused: “Can I go home?”

In the room, the other night… He didn’t call for his mother, but it was close. Like a scared, defenseless newborn, the graduate, Raffaele Sollecito listened to the judge’s decisions and fell into a panic most infantile. They might as well have awakened him with electroshock. After exactly a year on stage, after much acting with the attitude of a superstar, the accused emerged from his muffled, catatonic state, and suddenly understood. Perhaps only at that precise moment, while he read the indictment calling him to trial, with the prospect of being seriously condemned to a second life in prison, only then he completely realized a sense of his own destiny. Like a small boy, he managed to simply throw out a sorrowful and childish request: “But when can I go home?”

And why not? You finish the game and you go home. Why would you ever need to do more? What do they want, everything from me? And we see the same incredulous, irritated reaction from many main players in the games of death in Italy. The recent case of the minors in Sicily who confessed to raping their friend and throwing her into a well, is similar to that of Sollecito. Judge, I have told you everything, the story is over, why can’t I return to my life?.....

Seeing the actions in these savage inhuman stories, one clearly feels a sense of estrangement. A friend is killed in her house in Perugia, in a ruthless, gratuitous, perverse manner, but Amanda and her Raffaele seem involved only because they are required to be, as if they must take care of a tiresome formality. Okay, so justice must take its course, but we want to take care of it quickly because we have other things to think about. We must go home. That there is a life destroyed in that manner, that they are the main suspects to have destroyed that life in that manner, doesn’t seem to concern them much....Perhaps we are at that point. Perhaps the problem is that fundamentally these acts are truly their routine. They’ve seen them thousands of times, from a tender age, in the virtual realities on computer and television screens always found in their bedrooms. To plunge a knife into a human body has been a tame, habitual, repetitive, easy, common activitity in our homes for too long. It takes one second, after such a long period of twisted brainwashing, causing one to lose their conscience, and to play a grave, blasphemous, irreparable, macabre game with the human victim. It happens that, also in true crime, with the girl who was raped and thrown into a well by her friends, with the classmate humiliated and murdered during an alcohol infused game, in the end it doesn’t make much difference in respect to the many experiences of the spectators. There is an abysmal and absolute difference, but it’s difficult to grasp. The spectators become apathetic themselves. It is absolutely abominable. As if from the outside, as if in front of a movie screen, the frivolous question is spontaneously born: now that the closing credits flow by, can I go home?

No, graduate Sollecito. No, little mafiosi of Sicily. No, little bullies of Rome. You can’t go home right away. Unfortunately your bloody fictions don’t end here. This film is different: you must explain it. You’d better come to terms with it. You’d better start thinking it over. And who knows? Sooner or later, someday in the midst of your bewildered reactions, that unknown sentiment called compassion might re-emerge.


Translation from Il Giornale - 30 Oct 2008 by Passerotta at Damian's Blog



Raffaele is Ready to Explain Everything

‘Raffaele will speak during the trial and he will explain everything. You can be sure of that.’ said his lawyer Luca Maori. No more reticence or silence, he goes on the attack. He will not invoke his right to remain silent in what represents a change of tactics. Maori knows his client well and after yesterday’s disappointment (’He’s down, he needs a psychologist’s help’) today is the time to look ahead to the trial on December4. ‘He will participate in the trial and speak in front of the panel of judges’, said Maori, giving an early insight into the defense strategy...The accused, in choosing to speak, will show that he is not afraid of being cross-examined by the prosecution as he gives his version of events. There could be some surprises at the trial also, since new evidence can be introduced.

Maori also gave his views on the best approach to adopt with the press. Sollecito’s father visited his son yesterday in prison. Responding to this question, ‘Maori, has the father spoken or will he speak about the meeting with his son?’, Maori said, ‘If he speaks, I will go. I will leave the defense team. He must be a father, Giulia Bongiorno and I are the lawyers....


Translation of the Corriere Dell'Umbria - 1 Nov 2008 at Damian's Blog




Still Investigating the Couple-The Prosecution Identifies Other Witnesses

There are new investigations, and most of all, new witnesses to shed light on the still obscure aspects of the murder of Meredith Kercher, violated and killed one year ago. The investigative machine doesn’t stop, even after the indictments of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, and the condemnation of Rudy Guede to 30 years in prison. All three were there that cursed night, according to Judge Paolo Micheli.

This is about people capable of “committing crime with little thought and absolute contempt for others” wrote Judge Micheli, as he rejected the request for release of the couple. The Prosecution has quickly restarted with additional investigative activity in view of the trial in the Court of Assise on December 4th. Obviously they have protected the evidence, but it seems that the police (in this case the Flying Squad) and the Public Prosecutors, Giuliano Mignini and Manuela Comodi, have identified still more witnesses that would make up part of the list of people that could be heard in the Court of Assise. It’s a list the prosecutors are already compiling. But the new witnesses could serve to, most of all, fit together all the pieces of this difficult puzzle of a crime....


Translation of La Nazione - 5 Nov 2008 by Passerotta at Damian's Blog




On the number of witnesses:

The 10,000 page prosecution file presented to the defences and pre-trial court contained evidence from over 50 witnesses. Now there are apparently over 100.
I suspect that most of these witnesses were already known by the prosecution but not considered essential to the case. I also suspect that many may have been re-interviewed in more detail following Judge Micheli's instruction to the prosecution and will relate to sightings and details which may shed some light on the movements of the three on the evening of the 1st November. Further questioning of these known witnesses could lead to the identification of others unknown.

ISTM that Judge Micheli considers the evidence from the cottage is as complete as it will likely ever be. What is required is the destruction of AK and RS stories for their movements that night.

I also think there is next to no chance that Raffaele will give Amanda an alibi for the hours after 9.00pm. If he's now prepared to be cross-examined in court, he'll want to be free of being caught in any difficulties or possible contradictions which may result from aiding the Knox camp to maintain Amanda's story that she was with him.
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:48 am   Post subject: Re: Frank's Banned the Croydon Guardian   

Michael wrote:
It would appear that Frank has now banned the Croydon Guardian from his site, Meredith Kercher's hometown newspaper. Talk about staking out your colours Frank!!!


I wouldn't worry too much Michael,

The Croydon Guardian is part of the Local Guardian Group

It's various editions cover southwest London, south of the river out to the M25.


Choose an edition:


News:
Balham
Clapham
Cobham
Croydon North
Croydon South
Crystal Palace
Elmbridge
Epsom
Esher
Hounslow
Kingston
Mitcham & Morden
Putney
Richmond and Twickenham Times
Staines
Streatham
Sutton
Tooting
Walton
West Norwood
Weybridge
Wandsworth
Wimbledon


Looking at the place names, I'd guess it's the local paper for a quarter of Greater London.

This story is contained in all the editions:


Editor's Choice


Driver fined while observing two-minute silence
A Chiswick motorist claims she was given a parking ticket as she stood alongside her car observing the two-minute silence on Remembrance Day...


Rose Theatre wants £600k a year from taxpayers
The Rose Theatre is negotiating with Kingston Council for up to £600,000 a year of council taxpayers’ money to “provide sustainable funding”...


Brain damaged boy, 4, suing for £5m
A four-year-old boy who was left brain damaged when he fell from a changing table in a nursery is suing for more than £5m in compensation...


Boris abandons £170M plan to extend Croydon Tramlink
A £170M plan to extend the Croydon Tramlink in to Crystal Palace has been abandoned due to lack of funding...


Victory for motorists over TfL
Drivers are celebrating as a controversial traffic system thought to have cost motorists more than £300,000 in fines this year is set to be changed...


Conspiracy theorists latch on to Meredith murder
A conspiracy theory website that claims to report the true account of the death of Coulsdon student Meredith Kercher has surfaced on the internet...


Plus the story complete with Skep's comment.

Your Local Guardian - 12 Nov 2008


Last edited by Brian S. on Wed Nov 12, 2008 8:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:04 am   Post subject: Re: Franky Boy   

[quote="Michael"]Frank says on the shirt box

Where is this discussed? I can't find it on the Perugia Shock blog.
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:24 am   Post subject:    

Hi Bolint,
You will find it on the second comments second page of the "My Truth and My Challenge"
Here is the link to that page:

http://tinyurl.com/5moumc

this is the last comment from Frank on the shirt box:-

frank said...
Anonymous, I can only tell you this. In the language of this judge saying that they did something 'more or less regular' equals to a huge rebuke...
But, on the other hand we can hardly accept the possibility that a shirt box contaminated the inside of the groove of the knife.

November 11, 2008 4:37 PM
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:31 pm   Post subject:    

Thanks.
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Offline FinnMacCool


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:53 pm   Post subject:    

I've just spent a little while trying to figure out exactly what's going on with Amanda's spontaneous declaration from November 6. I'm after posting this on Candace's blog, but I thought I'd also post it here because I find it very confusing and someone might be able to point out where I've misunderstood it (if indeed I have).

In a nutshell - and this is where I'm thinking maybe I've got the wrong end of the stick - it looks to me as if the evidence for the trial includes the 0545 statement that was previously ruled inadmissible by the Cassazione.

Frank made a nice translation of the Cassazione's main points back in April 2008.

The Cassazione judgment is very precise. As I read over it, it's actually slightly different from the way I'd remembered it (so I may have misled people when I've posted on this before - sorry!)

Here's what the Cassazione says:

0145 statements: "can only be used contra alios (against another person). As a result of those statements, the interrogation was suspended and you [Amanda] became 'indagata'."

0545 statements: "The 'spontaneous statements' made at 5.45 am are not admissible against you or against other suspects because you had already become 'indagata' and you did not have legal protection."

The written statement: But, the memoir you wrote was a spontaneous defensive act and is admissible against you.


I'm quite surprised by this article from the Corriere dell'Umbria, because it appears to imply the inclusion of the 0545 statement that I'd understood to have previously been ruled inadmissible.

I notice also that "i verbali degli interrogatori degli imputati" have also been included - I take this to refer to the written transcripts of the suspects' interrogations, which have been the subject of considerable debate on Candace's blogs in particular.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 2:07 pm   Post subject: Guardian Group   

Hi Brian,

Great to see you.

I suppose I wanted to draw attention to the fact that this is yet another move to erase Meredith. I don't believe Frank is ant-Meredith, but I do very much think that he believes subjects such as Amanda Knox, Candace Dempsey, Anne Bremner and most of all himself, are far sexier.

In his view, those people are his ticket to acclaim and prominence, not....'some dead girl'. He'll just use her on those occassions where it's convenient to get him to where he wants to go. 'Exploitation' I believe is the word we have for it.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 2:22 pm   Post subject: Statements   

Finn wrote:
0145 statements: "can only be used contra alios (against another person). As a result of those statements, the interrogation was suspended and you [Amanda] became 'indagata'."

0545 statements: "The 'spontaneous statements' made at 5.45 am are not admissible against you or against other suspects because you had already become 'indagata' and you did not have legal protection."


Hi Finn. Yes...I got corrected over this just recently. I believe the 0545 statement is being included as this is the one that ultimately was the cause of Patrick's arrest (since this was the one given in the presence of Mignini). Therefore, it may be being included as part of Patrick's suit against Amanda (along with the 0145 statement and written memoir). It may be, that Amanda's defence will be able to get this statement thrown out pretty easily once introduced due to the ruling of the Cassazione, but we'll have to see. If I'm wrong, Yummi probably would be the best person to ask.

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Offline ddude


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:50 pm   Post subject: Meredith's Door and Keys and more   

I recall reading somewhere that the lock on Meredith's bedroom door was of the type that needed a key to be locked. Are we any closer to certified on this?

It's very strange that Amanda claims that Meredith locked her door but another says no - and Amanda reportedly had a key for the door but didn't volunteer it, rather enabling the need for a "failed" breaking by the brutish and manly Raffaele and ultimately a successful breaking by the "Postals" (!)

Do I have this all correct?

Amanda seemed to have a lack of respect for others' boundaries. It's surprising that in the midst of all the weird little clues at the cottage that Nov 2 morning she wouldn't have knocked on Meredith's door and upon no reply, investigated Meredith's room just with a nose-in-the door snoop using her key. Unless there was a reason to avoid the door and the room.

I find a twisted logic here - if you are worried about a non-responsive room mate why try breaking the door down - especially if there's a key available - and why not just call the Police straight away as Edda recommended? If one is worried enough to smash the door, why not follow through? What would make someone in a situation like this not remember that they had a key? Extreme panic? Amanda didn't seem to be too alarmed...

I trust all the keys for Meredith's door are accounted for.

Also:

Notice that in Amanda and / or Raffaele's testimony re: Nov 1 that Meredith left without saying where she was going or what time she would be coming back. A convenient lie to make the evening's potential timetable appear unpredictable to the potential perputrators? Like they wouldn't / couldn't have had a plan? With everything being so hazy in a cloud of cannibis smoke, this has always struck me as the only definite triviality of the day's proceedings.

I'm still of the mind that what happened was a twist on Amanda's prank from before, except this time, upped a notch, it careened towards too dangerous and crashed with fatal results. Like a fraternity hazing gone wrong.

I'll never ping the "award winning" journalist's blog-of-nothing again. Ever. It's clear that there's secret agendas and trysts. Opinions and theories that run counter to Amanda's mandated (not "presumed") innocence are simply uninvited there. The Madame is clearly outlapped by many here on the crime possibilities and she chooses -by wanton ignorance- to have the biggest head buried deeply in her own sandbox...
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:15 pm   Post subject: Head buried in the sand   

ddude wrote:

Quote:
I'll never ping the "award winning" journalist's blog-of-nothing again. Ever. It's clear that there's secret agendas and trysts. Opinions and theories that run counter to Amanda's mandated (not "presumed") innocence are simply uninvited there. The Madame is clearly outlapped by many here on the crime possibilities and she chooses -by wanton ignorance- to have the biggest head buried deeply in her own sandbox...


Hi ddude! It's always nice to "see" you. The keys are as confusing to me as the bleach receipts, but I'm going to try and find what has been reported to date about those keys.

I'm reposting my comment from the TJMK site, which I wrote to alert Fast Pete to the fact that Candace Dempsey has repeated the erroneous claim that his site violates copyright laws and that this is the reason she cannot post links to the site. It's against PI rules, she claims, in response to someone who mentioned the Croydon Guardian piece.

Since I know she reads this board and can visit as often as she wants without each ping being counted up for anyone to crow about, I am also reposting Fast Pete's reply, which was already posted here. If she continues to assert that the TJMK site violates copyright law, she will be knowingly making a false claim. I don't care if she refuses to link to that or any other site - it's her blog she can do what she wants - but once again I find she is being disingenuous at best and dishonest at worst. Just tell the truth, Candace: I don't link to that site because they have given my blog the lowest grade - F - and have criticized me. Why should I advertise that?

Here's what I posted to Pete:
"As for the PI reader blog, Candace Dempsey continues to assert, wrongly, that this not-for-profit site dedicated to justice for Meredith Kercher violates copyright law, and that this - alas, poor Yorrick - is why she cannot link to it. Pete, I believe you have already provided a clear explanation as to why this is not the case. Perhaps you need to contact Ms. Dempsey directly so that she does not continue to misinform her readers on this point."
Posted by Skeptical Bystander on 11/12/08 at 12:56 AM | #

And Pete's reply:

"Hmmm. I wonder. Do we really want any links from that for-profit blog? Making money out of bashing the victim?

Take a look at this.

We gave the blog an F rating then, for its perpetual anti-victim bias and its extreme callousness. And a recent glance suggests we won’t be upgrading it any time soon.

And for copyright reasons also, we may not want links. Here’s part of a 10 October comment on the PMF forum on that subject:

First, news shots usually have a premium commercial shelf-life of only a few hours, and it is the commercial newspapers and magazines which pay the big bucks, and then only for the high-resolution shots. If the providers want copyright to apply and a fee for their use, they always say so - often right there on the shot itself. Copyright is never applied to the sample images under 100,000 bytes widely used on the web.

Second, look around the blogosphere. There are literally thousands of shots reposted daily on blogs. Go look at Google Images, where there are millions. See ANYONE worrying? These days, anyone can use shots from sites everywhere, certainly for a not-for-profit blog like ours, without any fear. Nobody is going to start suing all the blogs, and certainly not the not-for-profit blogs. Companies do not want to waste money and goodwill, and risk the almost sure chance they’ll lose, suing the not-for-profits, period.

Third, having said all that, Dempsey actually has no clue where we get the shots for TJMK or whether we pay for them, and she should perhaps be careful about those “illegal” accusations. I’m very experienced in this area and I have been reposting shots for years. I know people in Reuters etc etc here in NYC and it is easy for me to get all the shots and okays I ever need, and easy for me to pay whatever they want for them. And we specifically DONT claim copyright. Please see the statement in the TJMK footer saying that.

Fourth, Dempsey and Frank DO seem to us to have a need to take care of what material they post on their own blogs. Their status is entirely different.

Nobody would mistake Dempsey’s blog for a not-for-profit: it is posted on a Hearst corporate website, and there are online ads appearing right alongside it. And this appears at the bottom of all posts: “Copyright 2008 by Candace Dempsey. All rights reserved.” That is pretty unusual on any blog, and it strongly limits her right to reproduce copyright material that she takes from others…

We may soon be posting an open letter to the Hearst Corporation on illegal copyright use. They are going to LOVE that."

Posted by Fast Pete on 11/12/08 at 10:14 AM | #

I hope this clarifies things for everyone.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:23 pm   Post subject: Re: Meredith's Door and Keys and more   

ddude wrote:
and Amanda reportedly had a key for the door but didn't volunteer it


I'm afraid this is not true.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:24 pm   Post subject: Doors   

DDude wrote:
I recall reading somewhere that the lock on Meredith's bedroom door was of the type that needed a key to be locked. Are we any closer to certified on this?


Hi DDude. Affirmative. See the photo of the inside of Meredith's door handle below that makes it clear. It's a door requiring a key:



_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:26 pm   Post subject: Don't wait up for me   

ddude:

Quote:
Notice that in Amanda and / or Raffaele's testimony re: Nov 1 that Meredith left without saying where she was going or what time she would be coming back. A convenient lie to make the evening's potential timetable appear unpredictable to the potential perputrators? Like they wouldn't / couldn't have had a plan? With everything being so hazy in a cloud of cannibis smoke, this has always struck me as the only definite triviality of the day's proceedings.


This has always bothered me. It strikes me as odd that, if the two roommates were on good terms, the one would leave without saying where she was going and/or the other would not ask her. I can imagine a scenario where the one who is not coming home says, "by the way, I won't be home tonight. I'm staying at Raffaele's place."

It's a common courtesy, after all. Everyone else is away for the weekend, even the boys below. Wouldn't you let your roommate know that you too planned to be away for the night? Maybe give your roommate that information so she can decide whether to come home alone or crash on her friend's sofa.

I can't imagine not letting my roommates know where I was going in a friendly living situation.

The second thing that bothers me is that we have only AK and RS's word that Meredith left without saying where she was going, and they have proven thus far to be less than credible.

In any case, if it is true that Meredith left without saying where she was going (and if it is true that AK did not tell her she would not be back that night - that's a big if that only AK knows, and she apparently can't remember much - or couldn't - because of the dope), then that constitutes a sad failure of communication.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:34 pm   Post subject: The keys   

Bolint wrote:

Quote:
ddude wrote:
and Amanda reportedly had a key for the door but didn't volunteer it


I'm afraid this is not true.


Bolint, what is your understanding of the keys? Mine is that the master key (which everyone had) opened all the doors in the cottage; but that may not be correct.

Even if it is, AK may not have known this to be the case. Having had the experience of so many relatives and friends from the US spending time with me when I lived abroad, I can state with certainty that European keys and lock systems can be confusing to Americans. My own mother broke the lock on my front door, and I only gave her the key because she kept inadvertently locking herself out just by shutting the door.

It has also been reported that the keys in Meredith's possession (to the apartment below) were found in AK's room. Is this true?

In his diary, Raffaele states that when he and AK returned to the cottage they unlocked the front door (because AK had locked it upon leaving).

What else?
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:44 pm   Post subject:    

Brian wrote:

Quote:
I've read more than one report since which suggests they may have met with RG at Le Chic.

Since it has become public that Rudy Guede was not with Alex eating a kebap at around 7:30pm on the evening of the murder (Alex denies meeting him at all that day, even the alleged meeting after the murder when Rudy said he went home cleaned up, went to Alex's and on to the disco). Where was he in the hours before and after the murder?

RS and AK themselves say they were wandering around Perugia town centre early in the evening. Their mobile phone record will give an approximate route. Did they meet Rudy on the way? Did they arrange to see him later at Le Chic where Amanda was supposed to be working? Did Amanda meet him at the basketball court before she realised Patrick didn't require her?


Brian, did you ever find Frank's comment to the effect that some evidence was taken at some point from Le Chic? Maybe after Rudy's story didn't quite add up? But if they did meet there, surely they were seen, perhaps even by the owner?! :?

As for the pair wandering around the Perugia town centre, I don't recall AK stating this (as far as I know, she says they went straight to RS's cottage after "not" saying goodbye to Meredith). Raffaele, however, in one of his versions, says they walked around town until around 20-20:30 pm, then shopped for groceries and went back to his place.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:57 pm   Post subject: Re: The keys   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Bolint wrote:

Quote:
ddude wrote:
and Amanda reportedly had a key for the door but didn't volunteer it


I'm afraid this is not true.


Bolint, what is your understanding of the keys? Mine is that the master key (which everyone had) opened all the doors in the cottage; but that may not be correct.

Even if it is, AK may not have known this to be the case. Having had the experience of so many relatives and friends from the US spending time with me when I lived abroad, I can state with certainty that European keys and lock systems can be confusing to Americans. My own mother broke the lock on my front door, and I only gave her the key because she kept inadvertently locking herself out just by shutting the door.

It has also been reported that the keys in Meredith's possession (to the apartment below) were found in AK's room. Is this true?

In his diary, Raffaele states that when he and AK returned to the cottage they unlocked the front door (because AK had locked it upon leaving).

What else?


Skep,

It's been my understanding that ALL the keys would operate the front door but each had a minor difference in the cut which made each key specific to the owners room door.

Neither Amanda's nor Filomena's key would operate on Meredith's door.



It's long been said that Meredith's keys were found in Amanda's room but it will take some digging to obtain any confirmation or not. This story must date back to last year and one of the earlier Haloscans. I'll see what I can find later.

Brian, did you ever find Frank's comment to the effect that some evidence was taken at some point from Le Chic?

I'll try to dig this up too. It's much more recent
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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:03 pm   Post subject: Keys...again!   

Hi ddude! :)

Those pesky keys have been on my mind as well. Here's a post stating my confusion on October 16th.

Quote:
I can't stop thinking about those keys. I was prompted to go to the timeline HERE, and Michael asks the same question I have:

Quote:
1300 (just before) Filomena Romanelli arrives at apartment with her friends PA (Paola Grande - girlfriend of Luca) and LA (Luca Altieri). M (Marco) was present and "Amanda and Raffaele were in Amanda's room because at a certain point they came out into the corridor and we introduced ourselves." (Michael: Evidently, RS and AK failed to notice Meredith's keys whilst they were hidden away in her room. Why were they in AK's room when important actions were taking place elsewhere in the cottage, leaving non-resident Marco to deal with the Postal Police? How long were they in there for? 'What' were they doing whilst in there - checking it was 'clean'?)

(Tara said:)
Did only Meredith have a key on her key ring to lock her bedroom door? SOMEONE had to lock her in there so wouldn't the last prints on the key to HER door be those of whoever locked her in? I wonder if these keys were wiped clean of prints - after all, they were found in the "print free" room of Knox. If the keys were clean, I would think that to be strange.

And just what were Knox and Sollecito doing in Amanda's bedroom? Since they were in the room with "the keys", WHY didn't they give them to the people trying to open up Meredith's door? Wouldn't that be the "helpful" thing to do? I remember I asked this question when I saw the policewoman kick in the door downstairs. The fact that RS and AK were in her room where Meredith's keys were found makes me question this even more!


I don't see a "button" for locking the door on the photos that Michael just posted. (Thanks Michael!)

Bolint, what do you think? I always thought that everyone's key opened everyone's door. Back when I wrote the post above, Skep questioned whether Meredith had added the "boys downstairs keys" to her own key ring. I have always wondered why the information that Meredith was taking care of the cat downstairs wasn't offered up so the ILE didn't have to kick the downstairs door in! Meredith had the key! Did Knox not know about Meredith's cat sitting job?

ddude wrote:
Quote:
Also:

Notice that in Amanda and / or Raffaele's testimony re: Nov 1 that Meredith left without saying where she was going or what time she would be coming back. A convenient lie to make the evening's potential timetable appear unpredictable to the potential perputrators? Like they wouldn't / couldn't have had a plan? With everything being so hazy in a cloud of cannibis smoke, this has always struck me as the only definite triviality of the day's proceedings.


You make a very good point here. I always figured that since Knox and Meredith were on the outs, maybe they were "ignoring" eachother, and that's why Meredith didn't say goodbye. However, after having a late night out on Halloween, it seems logical to drop the hint that she planned to have an "early" evening and get to bed early - thus "please, no parties here at the house tonight!" At least that's what I would do! ;) It does seem odd that Meredith would leave without saying ANYTHING - and from what we've read about her, it doesn't fit her personality - in my opinion.
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Offline indie


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:33 pm   Post subject: Re: Meredith's Door and Keys and more   

ddude wrote:
>>>>>> snipped to the point I'd like to address:

I'm still of the mind that what happened was a twist on Amanda's prank from before, except this time, upped a notch, it careened towards too dangerous and crashed with fatal results. Like a fraternity hazing gone wrong.

I'll never ping the "award winning" journalist's blog-of-nothing again. Ever. It's clear that there's secret agendas and trysts. Opinions and theories that run counter to Amanda's mandated (not "presumed") innocence are simply uninvited there. The Madame is clearly outlapped by many here on the crime possibilities and she chooses -by wanton ignorance- to have the biggest head buried deeply in her own sandbox...


Hi ddude,

The PRANK scenario has been my view from day 1 and continues to be my view of this horrific murder. It makes the most sense because it sort of answers why the phones were turned off, encompasses their sick fantasies and even helps explain why seemingly "normal 20 year olds" committed this crime. Just like in many hazing situations, death was never the intended consequence. I really do not believe they INTENDED to murder Meredith. The situation they put themselves in began to mesh with their fantasy and their sick personalities were UNABLE to stop them. Their hedonistic brains do not have the NORMAL breaks people have to control those impulses.

And to think all it would have taken is for ONE of the three to stop the madness. We have talked about it before, but every single factor possible was lined up against Meredith that fateful evening. I have absolutely no compassion for any of them because they have had EVERY opportunity to tell the truth. They must now live with the severest of consequences. I do believe the judges would have helped in sentencing if someone would have told the truth and helped the Kercher family understand how their daughter was murdered that evening. But no they continue the charade and now they must pay with the maximum price.


And count me in as one of the PI "nonpingers". The discussion about her bores me, but perhaps it is due to the fact I have never read her blog.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:38 pm   Post subject: Re: Doors   

I'll just also say, that door would present no problem for me at all to break in and I'm no superman. Therefore, for me, Sollecito's claim to have attempted to break in the door but was unable, a so-called kickboxer, holds no water for me.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:41 pm   Post subject:    

The Croydon Guardian article about the True Justice For Meredith Kercher website is the most read article on their website. News Now has also picked up the article and is providing a link to the story. This will have positive knock on effect on Perugia Murder File. Both sites are becoming more visible on the Internet.

Fast Pete has a new piece up on the True Justice For Meredith Kercher site:

Now Our Website Is The Subject Of A Russian Wire Service Story

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php


Last edited by The Machine on Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:29 pm   Post subject: Re: Doors   

Michael wrote:
I'll just also say, that door would present no problem for me at all to break in and I'm no superman. Therefore, for me, Sollecito's claim to have attempted to break in the door but was unable, a so-called kickboxer, holds no water for me.


So true! And let's not forget Knox's "foxy" soccer and mountain climbing skills - she probably has some strong legs on her as well. :shock:
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:02 pm   Post subject: Re: The keys   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
what is your understanding of the keys? Mine is that the master key (which everyone had) opened all the doors in the cottage; but that may not be correct.

Even if it is, AK may not have known this to be the case.



But then we must also believe the Filomena, too, did not know that this supposed master key opens all rooms.
Anything against Amanda would hold also against Filomena.
So I don't think that this was the case.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:09 pm   Post subject: Re: Keys...again!   

Tara wrote:
what do you think? I always thought that everyone's key opened everyone's door.



Then Filomena could have opened Meredith's room without having to break it down.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:14 pm   Post subject: key   

Bolint wrote:

Quote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
what is your understanding of the keys? Mine is that the master key (which everyone had) opened all the doors in the cottage; but that may not be correct.
Even if it is, AK may not have known this to be the case.

But then we must also believe the Filomena, too, did not know that this supposed master key opens all rooms.
Anything against Amanda would hold also against Filomena.
So I don't think that this was the case.


Agreed. I am not comfortable speculating about such things because there is a simple and unambiguous answer, but we just don't have it.
What Brian noted may be correct and makes sense:

Quote:
It's been my understanding that ALL the keys would operate the front door but each had a minor difference in the cut which made each key specific to the owner's room door. Neither Amanda's nor Filomena's key would operate on Meredith's door.


I bet that both AK and Filomena knew their own keys would not open Meredith's door
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:19 pm   Post subject:    

Bolint wrote:

Quote:
Tara wrote:
what do you think? I always thought that everyone's key opened everyone's door.

Then Filomena could have opened Meredith's room without having to break it down.


And it makes sense that Filomena would be more inclined than Amanda to know how the keys worked, as she had been living in the cottage longer. I think the news report long ago containing the statement about the master key was simply wrong.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:31 pm   Post subject: Re: Keys...again!   

Tara quotes Michael:"Why were they in AK's room when important actions were taking place elsewhere in the cottage, leaving non-resident Marco to deal with the Postal Police? How long were they in there for?"

Between the arrivals of Marco/Luca and Filomena/Paola.
A couple of minutes.

Filomena called Amanda allegedly at 12:35 and then she was informed of the broken window and the mess in her room so she was sure to rush there anytime. And it was logical to expect that she started a chain reaction by alarming all others.

If AK and RS are guilty, then they needed time desperately to discuss things to handle the unexpected Postal Police visit and the early explosion.
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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:47 pm   Post subject: Bad reporting...   

More erroneous reporting:

Quote:
The police then entered the residence, forced open the locked bedroom door, and found Kercher nude and dead from stab wounds to her neck. The local police and homicide detectives were then called to the scene, along with the local prosecutor. Investigators found it strange that Knox, whose house key they say would open any room in the house, hadn’t used her key to check on Kercher.


MSNBC.MSN.COM
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 4:22 am   Post subject: More on the key to Merediths door.....   




As Michael says, this type of lock will require a key for both unlocking AND locking.


FACT:

IF Meredith's keys were found in her room, then the person who locked the door leaving Meredith dead on the floor, would require their own key to do so.


I find it hard to believe that this obvious point would not have been widely reported if Meredith's keys had been found in her room. It would be MAJOR evidence indicating that Meredith was killed by a holder of the cottage door keys. ie Knox. However, early reports do say that the door was "locked from the inside". This is given as the reason for breaking it down. (I've just had a feeling of deja vous)

Is it possible that Meredith's keys were pushed through a gap under the door and found just inside??
EDIT to note: No key is labelled for identity in Kermit's crime scene shots.



FACT:

It is reported in a Judges report back in November 2007 that Raffaele told the investigators that he could not have gone to the cottage alone as he did not possess a key. Thus, any time he gained entry to the cottage he must have been with Amanda.



This fact itself, did lead to some discussion about door keys back in November last year.

By January this year, it is being "stated" in posts at various forums that Meredith's keys had been found on Amanda's bedside table. I haven't yet tracked down the source for this information, but my feeling is that if it exists, it dates from November/early December 2007. I can't find good reference in the English speaking press, so I guess I'll have to resort to the Italian (that means I'll be slow :lol:)

If Meredith's keys had not been located "somewhere" in the cottage, I'll be surprised. Why weren't they reported as being missing along with her cash, phones and credit cards?

EDIT to note: In February there is some discussion about "Knox's key" possibly being a "master". Why is it assumed that the house worked on a system like this? Every time Meredith's keys are mentioned the plural is used. Is it possible that everyone had a front door key plus a seperate key for their individual room?


Last edited by Brian S. on Thu Nov 13, 2008 5:59 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Offline indie


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 4:52 am   Post subject:    

Just curious and not sure if this has been covered but must Amanda and Raffaele be tried together? Could they request and be granted independent trials?

ISTM unless Amanda's lawyers and Raffaele's lawyers are in back rooms sealing one totally bulletproof joint alibi it might be best to concentrate on the evidence against their own client and totally not worry where it takes them.

I feel a joint trial benefits the prosecution because Amanda's and Raffaele's lawyers may have only a minute or so to respond to what the other side presents while answering the judge's questions. Everyone needs to be prepared and quick on their feet including the judges because their questions may be the only shot at getting at the truth.

In a way, since this involves citizens from other countries the Italian justice system may feel a little more pressure to probably be as transparent as possible. England and the U.S. will be watching and to avoid any political ramifications I am sure they'll want to showcase the evidence in a clear and solid manner. I so hope all goes well for them. Meredith deserves the Italian justice system to be at its best.
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 5:18 am   Post subject:    

indie wrote:

In a way, since this involves citizens from other countries the Italian justice system may feel a little more pressure to probably be as transparent as possible. England and the U.S. will be watching and to avoid any political ramifications I am sure they'll want to showcase the evidence in a clear and solid manner. I so hope all goes well for them. Meredith deserves the Italian justice system to be at its best.


I've thought about this one Indie, and I'm sure you're right. I think the "big clue" may be in Amanda's request not to have the trial televised and the Kercher's have expressed disquiet about Meredith's body being plastered all over the media.

ISTM that the problem revolves around the size of the courts in Perugia. They can't cater for hundreds of journalists, plus those involved in the trial along with seats for the general public.

FIX:

Limit the seating to a small number of journalists and members of the public and televise the trial.

Accomodation can be made between the TV company and the court over what is shown directly relating to Meredith, and Amanda will lose her appeal against the cameras in court. Why would her defense object to something which hasn't been proposed?

She'd be in good company. They televised the Monster of Florence trial in 1994.

Personally, I believe the Free Amanda Campaign has virtually guaranteed televising. They will shout "cover up" if it isn't. I think the Italian Courts will be only to pleased to oblige them. Why should they worry about Amanda's plea for secrecy when they want to demonstrate the openess of the Italian system to US and UK audiences.

I'm sure the worries of the Kercher's can be accomodated without detracting from the substance of the trial.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 7:24 am   Post subject:    

Times September 21, 2008:

Quote:
Soon after she was jailed on November 6, Knox wrote the two-page account in which she described the supposed conversation on Sollecito’s bed.

“This is what happened - I swear it,” she wrote. She spent the evening at the home of Sollecito. “I checked my e-mails on his computer for a time and then I read him a bit of Harry Potter in German. We watched [the film] Amélie and we kissed each other a bit,” Knox continued.

After dinner, Sollecito said he wanted to smoke cannabis and the two talked on his bed “about the kinds of people we were”. Knox added: “Raffaele told me about his past. About how he had a horrible experience with drugs and alcohol.”

Claiming in her account to have consoled Sollecito when he blamed himself for not having been at his depressed mother’s side before she committed suicide, Knox outlined her own philosophy of life.

“I told him that life is full of choices and that these choices are not necessarily between good and evil, but between what’s better and what’s worse, and that what we all must do is that which we believe is best.”

Knox concluded: “It was a very long conversation but it happened and it must have happened while Meredith was being killed.”


Even if it was a long conversation it doesn't seem to have made a huge impact on Raffaele as he doesn't remember a single word of it not even that it happened at all.
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Offline Jumpy


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 7:57 am   Post subject:    

Please God please god please god please god do not televise this trial. It compromises everyone and everything for what? Let's be honest. Fucking ratings. Not justice. Judges, attorneys, witnesses, accused, you name it. No one, and I mean no one, acts normal when there is a camera on them. Can you imagine how desperate Candy & Co would be to get in all those shots? I cannot stomache the bottom feeding frenzy.

A trial can be done with justice to all. No cameras. Not good for anyone. Let the courts decide and not the recession.
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Offline Anastasia


Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:13 pm

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Location: Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 8:03 am   Post subject: just a thought   

I dont know if this has been covered yet but......I have to say this.... ever since Ak's parents started their squawking about their little pumpkins innocence and then hauled these pr firms in to smarten up Aks image and scream out her innocence.
I wondered to myself (and still do) if Ak is truly innocent, why didnt her family contact a human rights organization like Amnesty International????? I am sure they would jump at the opportunity to investigate the infringments of AK's human rights and such, and fight for her freedom. I must say that Amnesty International does some very important work in these areas. So why arent her parents getting them on board, unless deep down even they doubt her innocence.

Anastasia
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 8:19 am   Post subject: Re: More on the key to Merediths door.....   

Brian S. wrote:



As Michael says, this type of lock will require a key for both unlocking AND locking.


FACT:

IF Meredith's keys were found in her room, then the person who locked the door leaving Meredith dead on the floor, would require their own key to do so.


I find it hard to believe that this obvious point would not have been widely reported if Meredith's keys had been found in her room. It would be MAJOR evidence indicating that Meredith was killed by a holder of the cottage door keys. ie Knox. However, early reports do say that the door was "locked from the inside". This is given as the reason for breaking it down. (I've just had a feeling of deja vous)

Is it possible that Meredith's keys were pushed through a gap under the door and found just inside??
EDIT to note: No key is labelled for identity in Kermit's crime scene shots.



FACT:

It is reported in a Judges report back in November 2007 that Raffaele told the investigators that he could not have gone to the cottage alone as he did not possess a key. Thus, any time he gained entry to the cottage he must have been with Amanda.



This fact itself, did lead to some discussion about door keys back in November last year.

By January this year, it is being "stated" in posts at various forums that Meredith's keys had been found on Amanda's bedside table. I haven't yet tracked down the source for this information, but my feeling is that if it exists, it dates from November/early December 2007. I can't find good reference in the English speaking press, so I guess I'll have to resort to the Italian (that means I'll be slow :lol:)

If Meredith's keys had not been located "somewhere" in the cottage, I'll be surprised. Why weren't they reported as being missing along with her cash, phones and credit cards?

EDIT to note: In February there is some discussion about "Knox's key" possibly being a "master". Why is it assumed that the house worked on a system like this? Every time Meredith's keys are mentioned the plural is used. Is it possible that everyone had a front door key plus a seperate key for their individual room?



More on keys:

Devastated Giacomo, 22, who shared a flat below where Meredith was living, is still struggling to come to terms with her brutal murder.

"I wasn't in Perugia when it happened because I had travelled to the coast to see my family," he said. "My place was empty because my flatmates had also gone away as Halloween is a time in Italy when we remember members of our family who have died.

"I left her the keys to my flat because she'd offered to look after our two cats and water the plants.

"Meredith had some parties planned with her English friends....


Kate Mansey interview with Giacomo in the Sunday Mirror - 18 Nov 2007

Whoever had Meredith's keys had access to the whole cottage including the cannabis plants downstairs (the existence of which has been confirmed by Papa Sollecito).


EDIT: 3rd November - police are searching for the key to Meredith's door.

Meanwhile, investigators are waiting to receive printouts on phone calls made and received from mobile phones of the victim (apparatus from which the ventiduenne not be separated ever). Particularly complex investigations also the need for consideration of possible contacts, including international.
The police are also searching for the weapon used to kill the girl - perhaps a knife or a screwdriver - and the key to the door of the room where the young woman was found dead. The chamber has been found locked, el'ipotesi privileged remains that the murder that has killed and is then escaped through the window....


Google translation of Medeaonline

I guess this means that the keys weren't found in Meredith's room.



Meredith had the keys of the apartment below and those keys have been found in Amanda's room.....

Wednesday, November 14, 2007 Waiting for evidences - Perugia Shock


I suspect that Frank got this information either directly from, or from reports of, the Judges report:

The following are extracts from the official judge's report on the murder of Meredith Kercher, obtained by the Telegraph

......As far as the presence of Knox Amanda is concerned in the place of the murder, there are the statements from Sollecito who has lately confirmed that he was always together with her and in the objective circumstances that only the aforementioned had access to the keys of the apartment in via della Pergola and had therefore the ability to open the front door without leaving any signs of breakage.....


The Daily Telegraph - 12 November 2007


Last edited by Brian S. on Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:11 pm   Post subject:    

To earlier discussion: The car of the Postal Pollice was a black Punto.

"The days – the days after the murder – a police officer examining the film took note that the time on the telecamera was 10 minutes fast. Today, looking at that document, one learns however that the postal police’s black Punto called by the woman who received threats on the telephone and found two cellphones (stolen from Meredith) in her garden the next morning, appeared in front of the telecamera at 12:35 and 57 seconds. So, it was actually 10 minutes before that."
(Source: Translation from Damiano33's blog based on La Nazione Oct. 7. 2008)
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 856

Location: New York

PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 4:08 pm   Post subject:    

indie wrote:
In a way, since this involves citizens from other countries the Italian justice system may feel a little more pressure to probably be as transparent as possible. England and the U.S. will be watching and to avoid any political ramifications I am sure they'll want to showcase the evidence in a clear and solid manner. I so hope all goes well for them. Meredith deserves the Italian justice system to be at its best.


I think the televising could be enormously beneficial to (1) Meredith and her UK friends and supporters (2) Italy and the much-maligned system (3) and the US and its curious and somewhat misinformed public.

Court TV here is now defunct but it televised a lot of trials and never once did I get the impression that anyone in the courtroom paid the cameras the slightest attention. (Except late Johnny Cochrane!)

Here in the US there would be an attempt at English sub-titles, and there would for sure be talking heads after every segment. Hopefully Skep is one, and hopefully Bremner is not another!

I am not wild about the kind of show that Nancy Grace puts on, on CNN Headline News (do you in the UK see that show?) but she sure is animated about victims' rights. And it helps. It actually does advance some of the cases.

Most usually that is the pattern here. Victims get every possible break on the shows, and some of them get some real star treatment.

Media emails reaching me now suggest that the interest in the Real Meredith is becoming HUGE right now.

I think the Kercher family will become a subject of total fascination. They will totally eclipse the Knox-Mellases during the trail.

At the Guede trial the Knox-Mellases seem to even have trouble facing the Kerchers in the courtroom.

They were nervously hanging out in the hills above, looking down on the scene outside. That doesnt play well on TV.
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 856

Location: New York

PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 4:32 pm   Post subject:    

The Machine said he's on a business retreat today on a mountain in north England, but he did amuse me with this parting shot.

The Machine wrote:
Personally, I thought you were very generous giving Candace's blog an F. Cheers, Tm


I know. I'm such a softie.

I sure would be grateful for a heads-up on any media coverage that we might pump up or take down.

It would be nice to really populate that A grade and that F grade area. If you want to write the relevant post that would be so nice.
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 856

Location: New York

PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 4:47 pm   Post subject:    

On Skep and the mystery car.

Late night or late morning, it's said to be of real interest to the prosecution. So I guess it aint a cop car.

One of the surprises in Perugia is just how many different kinds of police car (and police) there are around.

Outside the court of appeals there were at least five kinds at one point late July. And several others in the main piazza.

Whatcha think Nicki?! I liked all the cops I saw. Cheerful lot. Being a cop in Perugia must be a real plum job.

*******

Request: Does anyone have an address or location for the court of appeals annex where the Rudy trial was conducted?

It's down to the west somewhere, but I cant quite pick where.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 4:57 pm   Post subject: by fiat   

Bolint wrote:

Quote:
To earlier discussion: The car of the Postal Pollice was a black Punto.


Thanks for tracking that one down. In the meantime, the dark green Peugeot was allegedly reported by an unreliable witness, and we never did figure out whether it was allegedly spotted around midnight, in the morning or at noon!
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 856

Location: New York

PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 5:03 pm   Post subject:    

Yeah... that does sound a tad unreliable.

Allegedly unreliable...!
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 5:16 pm   Post subject:    

Fast Pete wrote:

Quote:
I know. I'm such a softie.
I sure would be grateful for a heads-up on any media coverage that we might pump up or take down.
It would be nice to really populate that A grade and that F grade area. If you want to write the relevant post that would be so nice.


First, we need to make an exhaustive list of everyone who has covered this case (reporters and media).
Then, we need to make a list of criteria so that they can be evaluated using the same scorecard.

I think we also need to divide our list into geographic categories -- US, UK and Italy.

In other words, I think it should be a global review rather than an ad hoc one. Adds credibility.
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 5:32 pm   Post subject:    

Fast Pete wrote:
The Machine said he's on a business retreat today on a mountain in north England, but he did amuse me with this parting shot.

The Machine wrote:
Personally, I thought you were very generous giving Candace's blog an F. Cheers, Tm


I know. I'm such a softie.

I sure would be grateful for a heads-up on any media coverage that we might pump up or take down.

It would be nice to really populate that A grade and that F grade area. If you want to write the relevant post that would be so nice.


Hi Pete,

I'm off tomorrow.

Jan Moir of Daily Telegraph wrote a brilliant grade A piece on the case:

"It was one of those crisp Sunday afternoons, with the cold tingle of winter in the air. Earlier, down by the Cenotaph, the British people had commemorated their war dead; the sombre, annual ritual of honouring military sacrifices, past and present, made on our behalf.

Later, once the parades had finished, the trumpets had been packed away and all the old soldiers had limped homewards, another spectre of death appeared in the blue skies to the west. In a discreet corner of Heathrow airport, an Alitalia flight from Rome taxied to a halt, and Meredith Kercher came home for the last time.

Even in those secret, sleepless moments of worry that all parents have, John and Arline Kercher could never have imagined that their pretty, 21-year-old daughter would be returned to them in a box, her body allegedly broken by sexual violence, the carotid artery in her neck fatally nicked by a pocket knife. Meredith wasn't backpacking alone in the wilder reaches of Thailand or drifting unthinking through the badlands of South America; the twin peaks of middle-class parental horror.
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The Kerchers had every reason to believe their daughter would be safe in Perugia, a civilised Umbrian town famous for its chocolate and its jazz concerts. There, Meredith studied history and political theory, sharing a house with other students. Safety in numbers. A diligent daughter, she spoke to her father on the phone nearly every day. "She was sweet like that," he said. Shortly before she died, Meredith was enjoying the town's annual chocolate festival and planning to return to London the following week for her mother's birthday. She had her tickets.

In the days since Meredith's murder two weeks ago, her grieving family have been spared no detail. In stark contrast to the fog of silence that surrounded the early days of the Madeleine McCann investigation, an alarming amount of evidence is already in the public domain.

We believe that Meredith suffered an agonisingly slow death after having her throat cut following a sexual assault. She died clasping a handful of hair pulled out at the roots, a desperate trophy of her struggle for life.

Chillingly, police believe there is evidence that her flatmate Amanda Knox may have held her down while she was attacked. The question has been raised whether the imprint of a Nike trainer at the scene points to the presence of Knox's boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito.

Both students are now in custody, alongside Diya Lumumba, a Congolese bar owner known to all parties. No charges have yet been brought, but Knox and Sollecito wasted no time in changing their stories. Into this stew of blood and lies come more stricken parents, all trying to do the best for their troubled offspring; but is that the right thing to do?

After flying in from Seattle, Knox's parents looked ashen with worry, but announced with spirit that their daughter was "distraught but innocent". The father of Sollecito cut an even less sympathetic figure, his protestations of his son's innocence bordering on the belligerent. "His passion for knives implies nothing," he snapped.

As the evidence emerges against the suspects, this lack of empathy must be difficult for the Kercher family to bear. Particularly as their daughter seems like a blameless young woman caught up by the darker forces of soft drugs and casual carnality that blight university towns. If she is guilty of anything, it is perhaps of being unaware of the sexual currents that swirled around her and perhaps trusting in others too much.

For her mourning parents, a black curtain has fallen over their lives. This untying of familial bonds, as children get older and move out of the comfort zone of home, is never easy. Mothers and fathers, like the Kerchers, can only wave goodbye and let their children go, hoping that they will not be unlucky or stupid, and that people will be kind to them. Then the fateful phone call comes, and the pillars of their world crash down.

For the parents of Raffaele and Foxy Knoxy, the road ahead is also bleak and strewn with many difficulties. Yet whatever the magnitude of their problems might be, they can console themselves with the fact that whatever happens, their child is still alive. Their child was not flown home from a life half-lived in the cold hold of an aeroplane, like poor Meredith Kercher.

They might do well to remember this, the next time they make a feisty public statement on behalf of their son or daughter." (The Daily Telegraph, 14 November 2007).
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 5:57 pm   Post subject:    

"She died clasping a handful of hair pulled out at the roots,"

This seems dubious, because DNA of hair with roots can be well analysed to my knowledge, and would easily indicate one of the suspects or a "fifth person".
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 6:07 pm   Post subject:    

Here's the link for the Jan Moir article:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main ... do1404.xml
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Offline Jools


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:06 pm   Post subject: BOAT HAS BEEN SOLD I GUESS   

The economic crisis affects everybody. Time to beg now. :lol:

http://amandadefensefund.org/
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:59 pm   Post subject: Re: BOAT HAS BEEN SOLD I GUESS   

Jools wrote:
The economic crisis affects everybody. Time to beg now. :lol:

http://amandadefensefund.org/


Hi Jools,

I couldn't help but notice they didn't include the photographs of Amanda kissing Raffaele outside the cottage or Amanda and Raffale laughing and kissing each other like they didn't have a care in the world when they were shopping in the boutique the day after Meredith was murdered.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 11:28 pm   Post subject: Free AK   

Jools wrote:

Quote:
The economic crisis affects everybody. Time to beg now.

http://amandadefensefund.org/


The weird thing is that this site looks more like a mausoleum. Does anyone remember if it is related to the facebook page (with people wearing the Free Amanda and Rafaele (sic) t-shirts) that surfaced a few months ago and was linked from the University of Washington Daily? The page mentioned an Amanda Defense Fund.

People pictured on this site:

Madison Paxton
Alexandra McDougall
David Johnsrud
Deanna Knox
The two half-sisters Ashley and Delaney
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:06 am   Post subject: DNA   

Nicki -

Frank is saying the following in regard to the DNA evidence on the knife:


Frank wrote:
The Knife yes, was discussed in april and was defined compatible with the fatal wound and not compatible with the lesser ones. So The Knife either is not the murder weapon or there were at least two knives acting.

About that I'd like to recall that the ioid bone was broken more or less on the run of the fatal wound so it's not sure at all that she was strangled too.

For the dna, yes, the pics were very low but the charts were hundreds and so that's what made them state the dna being Meredith's.
The problem is another. That the dna was scarce and damaged and had to be enhanced with some enzymes in order to be read.
So, given these two factors (artificial enhancement and low pics) they will probably try to attack the certainty beyond any reasonable doubt of the result.


Whilst Charlie is saying:

Charlie Wilkes wrote:
...the highest peak on the chart was 41 rfu...


Can you interpret exactly what this means for us?

Thanks Nicki :)

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:20 am   Post subject: Re: BOAT HAS BEEN SOLD I GUESS   

Jools wrote:
The economic crisis affects everybody. Time to beg now. :lol:

http://amandadefensefund.org/


Hi Jools. Thanks for the link. It is most unfortunate for the Knox/Mellas family that this happened last year rather then the year before...for certainly, with the economic crises, few will have spare cash to donate to the cause as the World tightens its belt.

The sad thing about that site...is it illustrates the price of this crime. Not only Meredith's, but so many lives down the tubes, so many people effected, so many wishing they could go back in time and make things different and will nurse that impossible wish for all the years to come. This whole thing is such a tragedy.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:49 am   Post subject: Re: DNA   

Michael wrote:
Nicki -

Frank is saying the following in regard to the DNA evidence on the knife:


Frank wrote:
The Knife yes, was discussed in april and was defined compatible with the fatal wound and not compatible with the lesser ones. So The Knife either is not the murder weapon or there were at least two knives acting.

About that I'd like to recall that the ioid bone was broken more or less on the run of the fatal wound so it's not sure at all that she was strangled too.

For the dna, yes, the pics were very low but the charts were hundreds and so that's what made them state the dna being Meredith's.
The problem is another. That the dna was scarce and damaged and had to be enhanced with some enzymes in order to be read.
So, given these two factors (artificial enhancement and low pics) they will probably try to attack the certainty beyond any reasonable doubt of the result.


Whilst Charlie is saying:

Charlie Wilkes wrote:
...the highest peak on the chart was 41 rfu...


Can you interpret exactly what this means for us?

Thanks Nicki :)


Judge Paolo Micheli accepted that the DNA on the blade was Meredith's:

"The judge attached weight to a kitchen knife found in Mr Sollecito’s flat which allegedly carried traces of Miss Knox’s DNA on the handle and Miss Kercher’s DNA on the blade." (The Daily Telegraph, 30 October 2008)

It's worth noting that the forensic scientists in Rome have consistently stated said that it's Meredith's DNA on the blade. They have no reason to lie and if the result was inconclusive they would have said so, like they did with the DNA of the two other people on Meredith's bra which Raffaele's forensic scientist says belongs to Amanda Knox and Rudy Guede.

It's also worth noting that Raffaele wasn't surprised that Meredith's DNA was on the blade of the knife that was found in his apartment. He wasn't surprised because he knew it was used on Meredith and knew it would have her DNA on it. That's why he made up that silly fairy tale about accidentally pricking Meredith whilst cooking.

All the judges so far have accepted the forensic evidence presented by the prosecution. Renato Biondo provided independent confirmation that the forensic investigation was carried out correctly and the findings are accurate, including the results on the double DNA knife. Otherwise, he would have said the knife result was inconclusive. It's only the defence lawyers who are saying this and they have a vested interest, unlike the forensic scientists.

I'd take what you hear from Charlie Wilkes and the gang with a hefty pinch of salt. You'll recall what they were saying about the knife not being entered as evidence a few months ago. Frank thought there was a possibilty that Amanda and Raffaele would be granted house arrest :D . Their relationship with the Knox/Mellas clan has clouded their judgement. They still think there's a chance that Amanda and Raffaele might be found not guilty.

It's funny how Frank didn't make any gags about Anne Bremner analysing the wrong crime scene. He has no problem laughing at Hekuran Kokomani or Toto. I wonder why he's so inconsistent...


Last edited by The Machine on Fri Nov 14, 2008 1:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline nicki

Forensics Moderator


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:27 am

Posts: 847

PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:58 am   Post subject: Re: DNA   

Michael wrote:
Nicki -

Frank is saying the following in regard to the DNA evidence on the knife:


Frank wrote:
The Knife yes, was discussed in april and was defined compatible with the fatal wound and not compatible with the lesser ones. So The Knife either is not the murder weapon or there were at least two knives acting.

About that I'd like to recall that the ioid bone was broken more or less on the run of the fatal wound so it's not sure at all that she was strangled too.

For the dna, yes, the pics were very low but the charts were hundreds and so that's what made them state the dna being Meredith's.
The problem is another. That the dna was scarce and damaged and had to be enhanced with some enzymes in order to be read.
So, given these two factors (artificial enhancement and low pics) they will probably try to attack the certainty beyond any reasonable doubt of the result.


Whilst Charlie is saying:

Charlie Wilkes wrote:
...the highest peak on the chart was 41 rfu...


Can you interpret exactly what this means for us?

Thanks Nicki :)

Michael,
No offense to Frank, but what he writes is totally unclear.However, about the highest peaks being 41 rfu, in case this is true-and there is no way to know it since we don't have the lab report-it would point to non-conclusive results, since peaks should be above 50 rfu. But was the DNA sample <100 pgs? What kind of test did they run then? A low copy number? We don't know...

Unless I'm provided with REAL information, there is no way to elaborate on this. Meanwhile, I'd rather trust Stefanoni's public statement that the DNA belongs to Meredith. Stefanoni is a well-reputed scientist and I have no reasons to doubt that she is faking a lab report.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 1:41 am   Post subject: Re: DNA   

Nicki wrote:
Michael,
No offense to Frank, but what he writes is totally unclear.However, about the highest peaks being 41 rfu, in case this is true-and there is no way to know it since we don't have the lab report-it would point to non-conclusive results, since peaks should be above 50 rfu. But was the DNA sample <100 pgs? What kind of test did they run then? A low copy number? We don't know...

Unless I'm provided with REAL information, there is no way to elaborate on this. Meanwhile, I'd rather trust Stefanoni's public statement that the DNA belongs to Meredith. Stefanoni is a well-reputed scientist and I have no reasons to doubt that she is faking a lab report.


Thanks Nicki. So, really we are not at the stage where we can put this to bed then. My understanding was that Italy didn't use low copy number protocol? Although I am fully with you, Stefafoni is a far more reputable voice then Mr Wilkes.

TM -

Thank you for a very good summary regarding the knife. That puts it rather well.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 1:50 am   Post subject: Skep is Popular   

It would seem you are very popular Skep...'Marm' is shouting you out on Frank's...accusing you of being some poster posting to her earlier (just a part of it):

Marm wrote:
No SB, you do NOT understand correctly. My ONLY grievance with TC is that they will not keep their misguided innuendos and ugly accusations about those who do not agree with them, on their own board!


It would appear, lots of posters get accused of being you on other boards, posters that tend to turn out 'not' to be you :)

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 3:08 am   Post subject: For Marie Tringignant   

OT))

I just read that Bertrand Cantet of the French rock group Noir Désir has released a couple of songs with his old group. What makes this noteworthy is that on July 27, 2003, Bertrand Cantat got into a dispute with his then companion, the French actress Marie Trintignant, and beat her to death.

In fact, she died of her injuries on August 1, 2003. This happened in a hotel room in Lithuania, where she was shooting on location for a telefilm. Cantet was found guilty of murder "committed with an indirect and undetermined motive," and was sentenced to only eight years in prison. He served four years of his sentence in France, and was granted parole in 2007. Last July, he asked for and was granted a conditional release, provided that he seek psychological assistance and submit to psychological supervision for a year and that he refrain from speaking publicly about the death of Marie Trintignant, who is survived by several children (none of them with Cantet).

It seems incredible to me that Betrand Cantet served only 4 years for this terrible crime, which he initially tried to dissimulate by saying that he had merely pushed her during a dispute and she had fallen, hitting her head on a metal wall radiator. He even said she seemed fine and he thought she was asleep. While he had no prior history of violence as far as I know, the fact is that he beat a woman to death.

I can imagine that for Marie's children and parents, both of whom are well-known in theatre and film circles in France, his release and what now appears to be his comeback must be very difficult to see.


Michael wrote:

Quote:
It would seem you are very popular Skep...'Marm' is shouting you out on Frank's...accusing you of being some poster posting to her earlier (just a part of it):
Marm wrote:
No SB, you do NOT understand correctly. My ONLY grievance with TC is that they will not keep their misguided innuendos and ugly accusations about those who do not agree with them, on their own board!
It would appear, lots of posters get accused of being you on other boards, posters that tend to turn out 'not' to be you.


Hey Michael, I don't know what I haven't understood correctly and probably won't have time to look tonight. This seems kind of garbled, whatever it refers to. And after being reminded of Bertrand Cantet and the brilliant actress Marie Trintignant, I really don't think it matters.

NICKI
Thanks for your explanation of the ongoing DNA controversy. It seems like good common sense to refrain from making pronouncements without looking at the real thing.

I'm intrigued about the defense fund. It is asking that donations be sent by mail to a PO box whose zip code places it in the south (west) end of Seattle. I'm not sure how many people would be willing to send money (and in the near future donate frequent flyer miles - to be uses for trips to and from Italy?) without any other information about this organization. Are donations tax deductible? Can they be made directly to a bank? Is there any accountability in terms of how the funds are used? Is there any accounting at all?
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Offline Tara


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Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

Posts: 1010

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 4:02 am   Post subject: ADF   

Skep,

Interesting to note that the Amanda Defense Fund has no tab with "Contact". Usually sites will at least have a contact email for those with questions.

Here's an example of a local fund set up for James O'Neal - and they raised over $200,000 with the help of KOMO 4 (ABC) news. It's a great story, and couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.

http://friendsofjamesoneal.blogspot.com/

I checked if ADF is registered with Washington State and my search came up with no results. However, ADF may be exempt from having to register...

Usually, like you say, don't charitible solicitations have a bank associated with the cause? Seems to me that would be more credible than sending off a check to a P.O. Box! As always, this is just my opinion.

http://www.secstate.wa.gov/charities/Default.aspx

JOOLS :) Thanks for the link!
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Offline Kermit


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Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:37 am

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 6:58 am   Post subject: Re: BOAT HAS BEEN SOLD I GUESS   

Jools wrote:
The economic crisis affects everybody. Time to beg now. :lol:
http://amandadefensefund.org/


I have been distracted over the last few days, but still around.

This amandadefensefund.org is a bit of a mystery. If you look up the Internet registration of the domain, you don't find much because the person who did the registration used a service called "Domains by Proxy", apparently based in Scottsdale Arizona (which is neither here nor there, although that city name rings a bell).

http://www.domainsbyproxy.com/

This service's slogan is: "Your identity is nobody's business but ours".

Don't you think they would be proud of who they are? Couldn't Anne Bremner have used her legal firm's contact info?

The Donations page says:

"Thank you for your support. If you would like to make a financial contribution mail a check to the address given below:

Amanda Defense Fund (ADF)
PO Box 47231
Seattle, WA 98146"


Do you get a receipt? I guess there's no tax incentive of any sort for donations.

Okay, I'm back to my meanderings.
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 11:21 am   Post subject: Re: DNA   

Michael wrote:
Nicki wrote:
Michael,
No offense to Frank, but what he writes is totally unclear.However, about the highest peaks being 41 rfu, in case this is true-and there is no way to know it since we don't have the lab report-it would point to non-conclusive results, since peaks should be above 50 rfu. But was the DNA sample <100 pgs? What kind of test did they run then? A low copy number? We don't know...

Unless I'm provided with REAL information, there is no way to elaborate on this. Meanwhile, I'd rather trust Stefanoni's public statement that the DNA belongs to Meredith. Stefanoni is a well-reputed scientist and I have no reasons to doubt that she is faking a lab report.


Thanks Nicki. So, really we are not at the stage where we can put this to bed then. My understanding was that Italy didn't use low copy number protocol? Although I am fully with you, Stefafoni is a far more reputable voice then Mr Wilkes.

l.

Michael:
The low copy number protocol is included in the preliminary flow-chart -guideline proposal from the Association of the Italian Forensic Genetists, but I don't know if Stefanoni used this protocol although from what I've heard the amount of DNA was so scarce that perhaps she did perform it.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 1:13 pm   Post subject: More on Meredith's keys.   

This address has really taken some finding.

I believe this is Matteini's report of the 9th November 2007 which may well contain the information about Meredith's keys being found in Amanda's room.

I've got to go elsewhere any moment so I'm storing the link right here.

It's an 18 page pdf.

Matteini's Report - 9th November 2007

Is anyone any good at Italian. I'm sure it contains lots of other interesting information about those first few days.
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Offline Kermit


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Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:37 am

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 1:46 pm   Post subject: Re: More on Meredith's keys.   

Brian S. wrote:
this is Matteini's report of the 9th November 2007 which may well contain the information about Meredith's keys being found in Amanda's room.
Matteini's Report - 9th November 2007


Hi Brian. In fact we've seen this report before, but between shuffles and boards, the reference may have slipped into the cracks. I think poster Belle back on the very first Haloscan started to translate it.

It is indeed an important document, inspite of it pointing to Patrick instead of Rudy, at that kickoff stage of the investigation.

These Telegraph and Times links provide partial translations of parts of the document. The only reference to keys is Raffaele stating that it was Amanda who had the keys to the cottage, not him. (I wonder why he emphasised that ......)

Telegraph extract of Matteini's report

Times Online extract of Matteini's report
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 2:26 pm   Post subject: Re: More on Meredith's keys.   

Brian S. wrote:
This address has really taken some finding.

I believe this is Matteini's report of the 9th November 2007 which may well contain the information about Meredith's keys being found in Amanda's room.

I've got to go elsewhere any moment so I'm storing the link right here.

It's an 18 page pdf.

Matteini's Report - 9th November 2007

Is anyone any good at Italian. I'm sure it contains lots of other interesting information about those first few days.


Hi Brian

If I'd known you were looking for that report I could have saved you some trouble...it's uploaded in our legal context forum:
JUDGE'S REPORT FROM THE FIRST HEARING

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


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Offline Fast Pete


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 3:08 pm   Post subject: Re: BOAT HAS BEEN SOLD I GUESS   

Kermit wrote:
This amandadefensefund.org is a bit of a mystery. If you look up the Internet registration of the domain, you don't find much because the person who did the registration used a service called "Domains by Proxy", apparently based in Scottsdale Arizona (which is neither here nor there, although that city name rings a bell).


Scottsale? You play any golf, Kermit?! For everyone else, it is the plooty eastern 1/3 of Phoenix. We occasionally pass through there. Incongruous place for anything digital.

I actually found the defense fund site a little moving. Seeing those other family members as the collateral damage in all this... Michael said something too on these lines.

While we are on this issue of defense funds, can anyone recall if the Kerchers are likely to get the compensation for families of victims the Italian government normally would pay?

There were stories a while back that Italy had not yet signed the EU protocol on this for non-Italians.

I have a bad feeling that the Kerchers so far have paid themselves for everything except Maresca (state funded, I think).

Their wrongful death lawsuits against the defendants may never result in real payments; those just stop the probability of million-dollar book deals.

TJMK was in part intended to get a fund alive for them. If they need it, we should move now.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 3:33 pm   Post subject: Re: DNA   

Nicki wrote:
Michael:
The low copy number protocol is included in the preliminary flow-chart -guideline proposal from the Association of the Italian Forensic Genetists, but I don't know if Stefanoni used this protocol although from what I've heard the amount of DNA was so scarce that perhaps she did perform it.


Thanks Nicki. We're no clearer then. If it was low copy number protocol used, would it state that clearly (or whatever technique it was) at the top of the forensic report? As unreliable as he is, Charlie Wilkes is claiming to have seen the DNA report which he says he finds incomprehensible, but is quoting the 41 rfu figure...therefore, I would have thought, had the report stated it used the low copy number technique he would be stating that too (screaming it in fact), but he isn't.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 3:53 pm   Post subject: Frequent flyer miles   

Kermit wrote:

Quote:
Jools wrote:
The economic crisis affects everybody. Time to beg now.
http://amandadefensefund.org/

I have been distracted over the last few days, but still around.
This amandadefensefund.org is a bit of a mystery. If you look up the Internet registration of the domain, you don't find much because the person who did the registration used a service called "Domains by Proxy", apparently based in Scottsdale Arizona (which is neither here nor there, although that city name rings a bell).

http://www.domainsbyproxy.com/
This service's slogan is: "Your identity is nobody's business but ours".

Don't you think they would be proud of who they are? Couldn't Anne Bremner have used her legal firm's contact info?


I doubt the base of operations for Domains by Proxy is anything other than a coincidence, although Chris Mellas used to live in Arizona (Tuscon) and perhaps one or two other peripheral characters hail from the state of Senator John McCain. But we won't hold that against them.

As for Anne Bremner, she says she is not being paid for this and has gotten involved as an activist with Heavey, other members of the legal profession (whoever they may be, we don't know) and friends of Amanda. Maybe her firm only allows her to conduct business for the firm on its dime.

As Tara and Jools have pointed out, there are some irregularities here. No contact info, no bank details, etc.

I don't mean to imply that anyone is out to scam anyone else - I seriously doubt it - but one would have to be extremely gullible or know the individuals behind the operation very well to mail a check to a PO Box. I think the set-up is more careless than calculating.

And one other thing: are frequent flyer miles generally transferrable?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 3:55 pm   Post subject: Just do it!   

Pete wrote:

Quote:
TJMK was in part intended to get a fund alive for them. If they need it, we should move now.


Yes, that was the idea. Now that the site's profile is on the upturn, we should get that going. Like now.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 4:15 pm   Post subject:    

OT to Michael)))

I did my once-a-day sweep of the blogs and boards and read the "marm" string on Frank's. Not that it matters, but marm is pretty identifiable. I think it is best just to ignore her; I don't respond to anything that purports to be about me on other people's blogs, and the comments are so OT and bitter I don't even feel like addressing them here and wasting everyone's time.

But Marm's last comment about bleaching knives is strange. It may be USDA recommended or whatever she says, but I have never seen it done or recommended anywhere, particularly in Europe. Certainly bleach is never mixed with hand-washing soap. My mom cut up a lot of chicken and fish, and I never saw her bleach the knives. It may be a regional thing in the US??? Anyway, I don't know. I've never seen that one before.

When I lived in France, I divided my time between Paris and the countryside (la France profonde), as many people do. My father-in-law kept and slaughtered rabbits, and his neighbors kept and slaughtered various other beasts, including chickens and goats. I've seen plenty of animals killed, cleaned and cut up, but have never seen the knives treated with bleach. Maybe the particular group of peasants I hung with in the French countryside were lax in their hygiene and safety, but I never ate anything but delicious food and am alive to tell about it today.

Anyway, it would be interesting to know what standard practice is in a city like Perugia and what Raffaele's habits were in this regard. We read one recent report that he had become interested in cooking behind bars, which suggests that prior to his incarceration he was not an experienced chef. Did he regularly buy and cut up freshly killed poultry and meat? Would investigators be able to tell if a knife had been rinsed with a diluted bleach solution as opposed to rubbed and scrubbed with pure bleach?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 4:24 pm   Post subject: Eye on DNA   

Speaking of cleaning knives, one of the first things that comes up in a casual google search is the website of Dr. Hsien-Hsien Lei. She posted an article called How to Clean DNA Off a Knife on November 21, 2007, under her heading called DNA and the Law. In it, she quotes from the Slate article that appeared last November. Her website, by the way, is called Eye on DNA (eyeondna.com)

She writes:

As most of us are now aware from many episodes of CSI, you can get DNA off of most anything. Because this is the case, if you’re contemplating a crime, you should think twice. Chances are, DNA can catch a thief. And a murderer.

Three suspects accused of murdering British exchange student Meredith Kercher in Italy thought they’d gotten rid of the evidence by cleaning the alleged murder weapon, a kitchen knife, with bleach. But it wasn’t good enough. DNA could still be recovered from the tip and handle of the knife.
Juliet Lapidos, Slate’s Explainer, says bleach is very effective at destroying DNA but you have to be very thorough.

So, why did Knox and Sollecito’s bleaching gambit fail? It’s difficult to swab a knife thoroughly. Dried blood can stick to the nooks and crannies in a wood handle, to the serrated edge of a blade, or become lodged in the slit between the blade and the hilt. With help from a Q-tip, it’s possible to eliminate most stains, but what’s not visible to the naked eye might still be visible to a microscope, and sophisticated crime labs need only about 10 cells to build a DNA profile.

DNA specialist Dr. Karen Rudolph has been able to extract one speck of dried blood from the hinge of a folding knife that had been boiled. The suspect was later convicted.

This all begs the question: Why don’t the suspects destroy the murder weapons rather than cleaning them? If there’s enough time to bleach and boil, surely there’s enough time to find a way to dispose of the knife. Not that I would know, of course!
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 4:30 pm   Post subject: Shen-Shen Lay   

More about Eye on DNA. This looks like a very good website about DNA issues (ethics, law, technical, etc.). I'd be interested in Nicki's opinion.

Here's how Dr. Hsien-Hsien Lei presents herself:

Welcome to Eye on DNA. I’m Hsien-Hsien Lei (pron. shen-shen lay) and I’m a PhD-trained epidemiologist and biotech consultant. I graduated from Stanford University with a BA in Human Biology, area of concentration in disease prevention, and received my PhD from the Johns Hopkins University Bloomberg School of Public Health in Epidemiology, Division of Genetic Epidemiology.

I have been blogging about science and health since 2005 and was the founding editor of the b5media Science and Health Channel as well as founding author of GeneticsAndHealth.com, AHeartyLife.com, and PlayLibrary.com. For a time, I was also Community Director of wurk.net and wrote healthcare.wurk.net. As of May 15, 2007, I work at DNA Direct as a Genetics Information Specialist.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 4:42 pm   Post subject: Re: Shen-Shen Lay   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
More about Eye on DNA. This looks like a very good website about DNA issues (ethics, law, technical, etc.). I'd be interested in Nicki's opinion.

Here's how Dr. Hsien-Hsien Lei presents herself:

Welcome to Eye on DNA. I’m Hsien-Hsien Lei (pron. shen-shen lay) and I’m a PhD-trained epidemiologist and biotech consultant. I graduated from Stanford University with a BA in Human Biology, area of concentration in disease prevention, and received my PhD from the Johns Hopkins University Bloomberg School of Public Health in Epidemiology, Division of Genetic Epidemiology.

I have been blogging about science and health since 2005 and was the founding editor of the b5media Science and Health Channel as well as founding author of GeneticsAndHealth.com, AHeartyLife.com, and PlayLibrary.com. For a time, I was also Community Director of wurk.net and wrote healthcare.wurk.net. As of May 15, 2007, I work at DNA Direct as a Genetics Information Specialist.


Thanks Skep, I'll be having a look at that site. Some of it looks ideal for our database.

As for Marm and the USDA, what bloody student consults USDA guidelines before cooking a meal? In fact, who 'anywhere' does?

It's a known fact that Governments put guidelines up just so everyone can completely ignore them ;)

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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 5:29 pm   Post subject: Re: DNA   

Michael wrote:
Nicki wrote:
Michael:
The low copy number protocol is included in the preliminary flow-chart -guideline proposal from the Association of the Italian Forensic Genetists, but I don't know if Stefanoni used this protocol although from what I've heard the amount of DNA was so scarce that perhaps she did perform it.


Thanks Nicki. We're no clearer then. If it was low copy number protocol used, would it state that clearly (or whatever technique it was) at the top of the forensic report? As unreliable as he is, Charlie Wilkes is claiming to have seen the DNA report which he says he finds incomprehensible, but is quoting the 41 rfu figure...therefore, I would have thought, had the report stated it used the low copy number technique he would be stating that too (screaming it in fact), but he isn't.

Michael, of course if would say the word low copy number somewhere on the report. But what is he quoting the 41 rfu figure for? How many peaks are there on the diagram? What was the initial DNA concentration? What polymerase was used? What commercial kit (if a commercial kit was used)? What markers ? How many?What was the cut off adopted by the lab? How does the protocol follow the GEFI-SIGU guidelines? (Gruppo Ematologi Forensi Italiani-Società Italiana di Genetica Umana) or other standard guidelines? If one ignores the answer to these and many more questions, that claimed 41 rfu value doesn't really help much. And as I said before, Stefanoni stated that the DNA belongs to Meredith.I suppose she is able to interprete lab reports better than Wilkes (or anybody else who doesn't work as a molecular biologist for a living).
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 5:34 pm   Post subject: Re: DNA   

nicki wrote:
Michael wrote:
Nicki wrote:
Michael:
The low copy number protocol is included in the preliminary flow-chart -guideline proposal from the Association of the Italian Forensic Genetists, but I don't know if Stefanoni used this protocol although from what I've heard the amount of DNA was so scarce that perhaps she did perform it.


Thanks Nicki. We're no clearer then. If it was low copy number protocol used, would it state that clearly (or whatever technique it was) at the top of the forensic report? As unreliable as he is, Charlie Wilkes is claiming to have seen the DNA report which he says he finds incomprehensible, but is quoting the 41 rfu figure...therefore, I would have thought, had the report stated it used the low copy number technique he would be stating that too (screaming it in fact), but he isn't.

Michael, of course if would say the word low copy number somewhere on the report. But what is he quoting the 41 rfu figure for? How many peaks are there on the diagram? What was the initial DNA concentration? What polymerase was used? What commercial kit (if a commercial kit was used)? What markers ? How many?What was the cut off adopted by the lab? How does the protocol follow the GEFI-SIGU guidelines? (Gruppo Ematologi Forensi Italiani-Società Italiana di Genetica Umana) or other standard guidelines? If one ignores the answer to these and many more questions, that claimed 41 rfu value doesn't really help much. And as I said before, Stefanoni stated that the DNA belongs to Meredith.I suppose she is able to interprete lab reports better than Wilkes (or anybody else who doesn't work as a molecular biologist for a living).


Thanks Nicki. Right...so it's not so simple as quoting some particular number from the report.

_________________
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 5:50 pm   Post subject: Re: Defense Fund   

Charlie Wilkes wrote:
Posted by Charlie Wilkes at 11/14/08 9:10 a.m. #216534

The Amanda defense fund site has been set up with the support and knowledge of Amanda's family.


THE COOK'S BLOG

Note: The word 'by' is not used.

_________________
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 6:04 pm   Post subject: Charlie, take off your lab coat and get real!   

Michael posted and wrote:

Quote:
Charlie Wilkes wrote:
Posted by Charlie Wilkes at 11/14/08 9:10 a.m. #216534
The Amanda defense fund site has been set up with the support and knowledge of Amanda's family.

THE COOK'S BLOG

Note: The word 'by' is not used.


Although someone may have mentioned the possibility that this site is a sham, I don't think that is the issue. I have little doubt that this site really was set up by someone with the support and knowledge of Amanda's family. If not, I think they would already have issued a press release dissociating themselves from the initiative. They issued a press release within a day or two of Amanda's arrest last November.

This is the kind of non-answer that I'm afraid Charlie is quite adept at. I don't even mean this as a criticism of the guy. More as a wake-up call: if you expect the public at large to donate money, then you need to reassure them about such basic things as:

Is my donation tax deductible?
Has this organization filed with some Washington state authority?
Will I receive an itemized account of how the funds are put to use?
Who collects the funds?
Can I pay directly into a bank?
Will I receive a written statement that will allow me to deduct this donation from my taxable income?
If I want more information about this fund and its operators, who do I contact?
For example, who are the members and operators of this fund?
Etc.
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Offline Corrina


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 6:08 pm   Post subject: Madison Seal of Approval   

Hi Michael,

The amandadefensefund must be on the up and up. Madison posts a message about it on the comments section at the "Free Amanda Knox and Rafaele (sp) Sollecito" Facebook site. Oh and it looks like Fast Pete has a *fan* over there, too. :shock: But then I recall Madison saying they had nothing to do with the teddy bears and coffee mugs and that site was listed on there, too. Go figure.

Still around and checking in periodically but have been giving myself a break from machinery as much as possible. Lots of meditation, yoga and clean eating.

For Meredith


Last edited by Corrina on Fri Nov 14, 2008 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Jumpy


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 6:08 pm   Post subject:    

Yes, you would want to be sure that the money was not going to the purchase of a new boat/VW.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 6:15 pm   Post subject: Information   

Here's what the law says:
Chapter 434-120 WAC
Charitable solicitation organizations
and charitable trusts

434-120-025
Definitions.
(1) "Charitable organization" means any entity that solicits or collects contributions from the general public where the contribution is or is purported to be used to support a charitable activity, but does not include any commercial fund-raiser or commercial fund-raising entity as defined in this section. "Charitable":

(a) Is not limited to its common law meaning unless the context clearly requires a narrower meaning;

(b) Does not include religious or political activities; and

(c) Includes, but is not limited to, educational, recreational, social, patriotic, legal defense, benevolent, and health causes.

(2) "Charitable trust" means any real or personal property right held by an entity or person that is intended to be used for a charitable purpose(s). The trust may be created by will, deed, articles of incorporation, or other governing instrument. It may be express or constructive.

(3) "Commercial coventurer" means a corporation, partnership, sole proprietorship, limited liability company, limited partnership, limited liability partnership, individual, or other entity that:

(a) Is regularly and primarily engaged in making sales of goods or services for profit directly to the general public; and

(b) Is not otherwise regularly or primarily engaged in making charitable solicitations in this state or otherwise raising funds in this state for one or more charitable organizations; and

(c) Represents to prospective purchasers that if they purchase a good or service from the commercial coventurer, a specified portion of the sales price or a certain sum of money or some other specified thing of value will be donated to a named charitable organization; and

(d) Does not ask purchasers to make checks or other instruments payable to a named charitable organization or any entity other than the commercial coventurer itself under its regular commercial name.

(4) "Compensation," means salaries, wages, fees, commissions, or any other remuneration or valuable consideration. Compensation shall not include reimbursement for expenses incurred and documented or noncash awards or prizes, valued at one hundred dollars or less, given annually to each volunteer.

(5) "Solicitation," means any oral or written request for a contribution, including the solicitor's offer or attempt to sell any property, rights, services, or other thing in connection with which:

(a) Any appeal is made for any charitable purpose; or

(b) The name of any charitable organization is used as an inducement for consummating the sale; or

(c) Any statement is made that implies that the whole or any part of the proceeds from the sale will be applied toward any charitable purpose or donated to any charitable organization; or

(d) The solicitation shall be deemed completed when made, whether or not the person making it receives any contribution or makes any sale.

(6) "Solicitation," as defined in RCW 19.09.020(16), for the purposes of these regulations, shall not include any of the following:

(a) An application or request for application for a grant, contract, or similar funding from any foundation, corporation, governmental agency or similar entity which has an established application and review procedure for reviewing such requests;

(b) The attempt to sell a service or good which constitutes the basis of the charitable organization's activities under which the federal income tax exemption was granted, or is the primary purpose for the existence of the charitable organization. This includes, but is not limited to, admission to a theatrical or other performance presented by a charitable organization that is a drama, musical, dance, or similar group and fees for services such as a hospital provides or use of the charitable organization's facilities; or

(c) Bingo activities, raffles, and amusement games conducted under chapter 9.46 RCW and applicable rules of the Washington state gambling commission.

(7) "Commercial fund-raiser" or "commercial fund-raising entity" means any entity that for compensation or other consideration within this state directly or indirectly solicits, receives or raises contributions for or on behalf of any charitable organization or charitable purpose, or that is engaged in the business of or is held out to persons in this state as independently engaged in the business of soliciting or receiving contributions for such purposes. However, the following shall not be deemed a "commercial fund-raiser" or "commercial fund-raising entity":

(a) Any entity that provides fund-raising advice or consultation to a charitable organization within this state but neither directly nor indirectly solicits or receives or raises any contribution for or on behalf of any such charitable organization; or

(b) A bona fide officer or other employee of a charitable organization.

(8) "Renewal date" means the fifteenth day of the fifth month after the close of the organization's fiscal or accounting year.

(9) "Secretary" means the secretary of state or the secretary's designee, or authorized representative.

Based on the above, and given that the FOA include attorneys and a judge, I assume the defense fund has made the necessary filings.

Information about disclosure requirements and just about everything else pertaining to such ventures can be found here:

http://tinyurl.com/5tzzhs
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Offline ddude


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 6:30 pm   Post subject: Annie B on the Nancy G and misc more   

First- thanks to all who provided some clarity on the door and keys.

Annie Blemner was on Nancy Grace about a week or two ago, shortly after her PR for Amanda stunt. Looking not like that picture of the action figure doll, but like the natural I-just-got-up Blemner, which I kind of go for. Funny- she wasn't railing against NG about Casey Anthony's presumed innocence and all the negative hype coming out on Nancy's show. I hope Annie can throw that segment up on her website to illustrate that there's two sides to every fish.

Also, I hit the defence fund site for Amanda. I was hoping to find pictures / videos of the the "real" recent Amanda, but didn't see any. Maybe mystoneynudistroommate.com has them.

Two or three days now I'm Seattle Bog free. I'm feeling Joy. (not Behar)

Ta-

p.s. this author knows how to spell but likes to play with words, like attorneys, politicians, bloggers, and Award Winning Journalists and Cooks.

< back to stealth mode >
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Offline DLW


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 7:15 pm   Post subject:    

‘But Marm's last comment about bleaching knives is strange. It may be USDA recommended or whatever she says, but I have never seen it done or recommended anywhere, particularly in Europe. Certainly bleach is never mixed with hand-washing soap. My mom cut up a lot of chicken and fish, and I never saw her bleach the knives. It may be a regional thing in the US??? Anyway, I don't know. I've never seen that one before‘…SB

This comes from a procedure for cleaning surgical equipment:

‘Never expose stainless steel instruments to bleach or other corrosive
chemicals to disinfect. Exposure to bleach may result in
instrument pitting and will void all manufacturer guarantees.’

Bleach corrodes most metals including stainless. The chlorine can get into the tiny metal pores, sort of like a sponge, and once there is not easily rinsed off. This may have been the problem the psycho twins ran into, leaving traces of bleach on the blade. After a while the chorine bonds to the metal and starts pitting. A very well made polished knife may not be as bad, but it can still ruin the finish. The cutting edge bevel is ground and roughened and is most susceptible to this type of damage.
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Offline Corrina


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 7:28 pm   Post subject: Come As You Are-Soaked in Bleach   

[quote="DLW"]‘ This may have been the problem the psycho twins ran into, leaving traces of bleach on the blade.

One has to wonder why this is trying to be explained away by certain parties. DLW, you might be onto something and the evidence shows that the knife was indeed bleached. Sort of like Joey the Taco telling us about Amanda's bloody footprints and coming up with a *logical* explanation. Or Sam telling us that the blood was from multiple piercings. Oy, my head! h-((
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:20 pm   Post subject: Re: Come As You Are-Soaked in Bleach   

Corrina wrote:
DLW wrote:
‘ This may have been the problem the psycho twins ran into, leaving traces of bleach on the blade.

One has to wonder why this is trying to be explained away by certain parties. DLW, you might be onto something and the evidence shows that the knife was indeed bleached. Sort of like Joey the Taco telling us about Amanda's bloody footprints and coming up with a *logical* explanation. Or Sam telling us that the blood was from multiple piercings. Oy, my head! h-((


Hi Corrina :)

We must also remember here, all these silly excuses have been offered by various Knox supporters...none have been offered by Amanda herself. In fact, whilst it's possible it's been ommitted from public view, Amanda made no suggestion at all in her questioning that she had bled 'anywhere' for 'any' reason on the night of or morning after the murder. One can't simply just 'invent' scenarios on a suspect's 'behalf', like these people are.

I would very much love to see Amanda on the stand and answer these kinds of questions herself, directly, as well as see what 'her' answers actually were in her questioning to these kinds of questions. Although, I don't think she answered any such questions due to her falling back on her right to silence.

_________________
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Offline Corrina


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:26 pm   Post subject: Make it up as we go along   

:D Michael,

I just get the feeling they keep making things up to try and hold back the glacier. So much of the excuses are so off-the-map, you know?

And now, I must go completely OFF TOPIC for it is time for a dancing banana!

b-(( I've seen one of a dancing pickle. Now that's just plain silly.
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 9:39 pm   Post subject: Support your local murderess.   

I think the Amanda defence fund is sick.
How far will these people stoop?
They use pictures of Knox as a young child, to try and curry favour for her.

I personally cannot hardly look at pictures of my girls when they were kids without having to wipe tears from my eyes, for they are so lovely.

This is why I think this is sick on the part of the Knox camp and of course intentional by design.

They are SELLING Knox as a little innocent girl now, which of course she was when the pictures were taken.

Of all the 3rd world countries I have been to in my life and been stuck at a red traffic light when a little girl comes up with a plastic cup begging for money - even they have more dignity than the Knox camp.
It is absolutely awful.
One has to remember that this individual has been charged with murder, sexual violence, theft and slander.

Curt Knox:
"We will do anything to free Amanda"

You're not kidding Curt....

_________________
R.I.P
Meredith Kercher.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 10:18 pm   Post subject: Re: Support your local murderess.   

DeathFish 2000 wrote:
I think the Amanda defence fund is sick.
How far will these people stoop?
They use pictures of Knox as a young child, to try and curry favour for her.

I personally cannot hardly look at pictures of my girls when they were kids without having to wipe tears from my eyes, for they are so lovely.

This is why I think this is sick on the part of the Knox camp and of course intentional by design.

They are SELLING Knox as a little innocent girl now, which of course she was when the pictures were taken.

Of all the 3rd world countries I have been to in my life and been stuck at a red traffic light when a little girl comes up with a plastic cup begging for money - even they have more dignity than the Knox camp.
It is absolutely awful.
One has to remember that this individual has been charged with murder, sexual violence, theft and slander.

Curt Knox:
"We will do anything to free Amanda"

You're not kidding Curt....


Hi DF2k, great to see you! Well...I sympathise in part. I mean, without some sort of help, there's no way they can maintain their current lifestyle as it is...I mean, all those trips out to Italy to see Amanda for example, the legal costs...that can't be sustained indefinitely. I always imagined that eventually, they were going to have to ask for some kind of help. The only alternative is to stop going to visit their daughter and I would imagine Amanda's come to depend on those visits. I don't envy their situation I have to say.

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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 10:54 pm   Post subject:    

Hi Michael,
I dont sympathise at all - not one iota.
As a parent myself (and one of mine being Knox's age) I think they have failed in not seeing that their daughter was obviously suffering from a mental disorder of some sort.

Perhaps like her friends they just regarded her behaviour as being good old "wacky" Amanda.
I have said this before but I think maybe one reason for Edda's eternal blubberings is that it is a guilt thing on her part manifesting itself.
She knew her daughter was barking mad but still unleashed her on an unsuspecting public and she now has to live with this if she posesses any shred of decency as a human being.
But then again I dont know, considering the way they have been trying to derail everything and anything to do with this trial.
Her refusal to send any condolence to the grieving Kercher family speaks volumes to me.

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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 11:05 pm   Post subject: Re: Support your local murderess.   

DeathFish 2000 wrote:
I think the Amanda defence fund is sick.
How far will these people stoop?
They use pictures of Knox as a young child, to try and curry favour for her.

I personally cannot hardly look at pictures of my girls when they were kids without having to wipe tears from my eyes, for they are so lovely.

This is why I think this is sick on the part of the Knox camp and of course intentional by design.

They are SELLING Knox as a little innocent girl now, which of course she was when the pictures were taken.

Of all the 3rd world countries I have been to in my life and been stuck at a red traffic light when a little girl comes up with a plastic cup begging for money - even they have more dignity than the Knox camp.
It is absolutely awful.
One has to remember that this individual has been charged with murder, sexual violence, theft and slander.

Curt Knox:
"We will do anything to free Amanda"

You're not kidding Curt....


I agree with you DF2K,

I think the Knox/Mellas behaviour is disgusting. They know very well that their daughter has lied, (specially the mother she would know) they in turn have also told many lies, changing them to fit the case as it moves along. Blame the ILE. Defend Sollecito (the 7 day old boyfriend) only because is convenient to them.

I do feel part sympathy for some friend/s, the way they are being used by the family borders on the cruel, brainwashing Madison Paxton.
This is what Paxton wrote on 28-October-2008

"Then Julia, how can you be so sure Amanda's guilty? You don't know her.
George - I know these things because Amanda's family knows the evidence. We (a group of Amanda's friends) meet at their house every week to talk about what's going on. Amanda said she was denied food and bathroom breaks, so I believe that because I know her to be an honest person - we're just going to disagree on that. She signed the statement because she was terrified, because the police told her they had evidence linking her and Raffaele to the crime scene (and Patrick). They told her they had enough evidence to put her in jail for 30 years, told her she'd never see her family again. She was terrified, she was under great stress, and she was incredibly confused. Many professors who have never met Amanda or Raffaele have spoken out about how real false confessions and false accusations are. You should look into it if you get some time.
"Then Julia, how can you be so sure Amanda's guilty? You don't know her.
George - I know these things because Amanda's family knows the evidence. We (a group of Amanda's friends) meet at their house every week to talk about what's going on. Amanda said she was denied food and bathroom breaks, so I believe that because I know her to be an honest person - we're just going to disagree on that. She signed the statement because she was terrified, because the police told her they had evidence linking her and Raffaele to the crime scene (and Patrick). They told her they had enough evidence to put her in jail for 30 years, told her she'd never see her family again. She was terrified, she was under great stress, and she was incredibly confused. Many professors who have never met Amanda or Raffaele have spoken out about how real false confessions and false accusations are. You should look into it if you get some time."
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Offline Jumpy


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 4:50 am   Post subject:    

Hi DeathFish,
I'm glad to see you posting b/c I enjoy reading your posts.

I think it is funny how those people are now saying that since there is bleach on the knife there cannot be any dna. Can we say delusional? Raffaele and Amanda did not scrub ENOUGH. Her cleaning skills were really not up to par! :D

Jools, I like you dancing banana. Can we get a swimming polar bear?
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 4:57 am   Post subject: Intention by design   

Hi Joolz,
I found it interesting (as if we didn't know) regarding Paxton and her meetings with the Knox coven.
Every week!
Well knock me down with a feather, I could jump off a doll's house..
Who would have known it aye...

This week we want to discuss Tee shirts and merchandising.

Don't say anything, our Italian contact will front it up.
We can make money via cafe press, our Knox merchandise will be good stocking fillers for Christmas and also be something nice to wear to church on Sunday!

Minimum 27 to 30 dollars per unit, is that ok?
But it will be all done in the best possible taste!

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Offline Jumpy


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 4:58 am   Post subject:    

I really feel for the families of the accused if they didn't act the way they did. I would be devastated in their shoes. There just comes a time when you have to consider right and wrong.

If there were some type of miracle which proved that the three were innocent I would eat my words, plate, you name it, and apologize. There is not conspiracy. Hardworking people who care about this case are solving it. It's not a movie. No happy ending for anyone. What must happen is justice even when it won't bring someone back. Someone who died at the hands of people she knew and actually trusted. The picture of what happened that night is so frightening to actually consider.

I believe in all of my heart and mind that the good people of Perugia are working in the best interest of those they serve. They are doing their jobs and seeking justice for a horrible situation they would rather never happen on their doorstep. I feel bad for the families of the police and investigators too.
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 5:15 am   Post subject:    

Jumpy wrote:
Hi DeathFish,
I'm glad to see you posting b/c I enjoy reading your posts.

I think it is funny how those people are now saying that since there is bleach on the knife there cannot be any dna. Can we say delusional? Raffaele and Amanda did not scrub ENOUGH. Her cleaning skills were really not up to par! :D

Jools, I like you dancing banana. Can we get a swimming polar bear?

Hi Jumpy,
Touche...
I think this concept is a mix of them both...
We have seen the strange shots of Sollecito wrapped up in toilet paper and brandishing a meat cleaver while holding a bottle of alcohol (why?)
but anyway, as Curt says the meat cleaver is probably one of his art pieces.

Well, when I go to see my team play in the Premier league on Sunday I dont think I will get into the ground if I am carrying an art piece like what Sollecito does and I will certainly not try and get on the aircraft on Monday with the said art piece.
Regarding the bleach and I am confident Nicki will back me up here, a bleach solution is used to scrub down benches in forensic labs - so as to avoid any contamination.
Sollecito I think was intelligent enough to know this.
Unfortunately it looks like his intellectual arrogance is to be his downfall.. same as Knox.

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Offline Jumpy


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 5:21 am   Post subject:    

Yes DeathFish, Agreed.

She watched enough of A&E, I imagine.

But can you get a swimming polar bear?
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 5:40 am   Post subject:    

Jumpy wrote:
Yes DeathFish, Agreed.

She watched enough of A&E, I imagine.

But can you get a swimming polar bear?


LOL!!

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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 10:12 am   Post subject:    

DeathFish 2000 wrote:
Jumpy wrote:
Hi DeathFish,
I'm glad to see you posting b/c I enjoy reading your posts.

I think it is funny how those people are now saying that since there is bleach on the knife there cannot be any dna. Can we say delusional? Raffaele and Amanda did not scrub ENOUGH. Her cleaning skills were really not up to par! :D

Jools, I like you dancing banana. Can we get a swimming polar bear?

Hi Jumpy,
Touche...
I think this concept is a mix of them both...
We have seen the strange shots of Sollecito wrapped up in toilet paper and brandishing a meat cleaver while holding a bottle of alcohol (why?)
but anyway, as Curt says the meat cleaver is probably one of his art pieces.

Well, when I go to see my team play in the Premier league on Sunday I dont think I will get into the ground if I am carrying an art piece like what Sollecito does and I will certainly not try and get on the aircraft on Monday with the said art piece.
Regarding the bleach and I am confident Nicki will back me up here, a bleach solution is used to scrub down benches in forensic labs - so as to avoid any contamination.
Sollecito I think was intelligent enough to know this.
Unfortunately it looks like his intellectual arrogance is to be his downfall.. same as Knox.

You bet Deathfish.Bleach is used to scrub lab benches not only in forensic labs.It is among the cheapest and most efficient disinfectants so it's routinely used in any lab.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 3:09 pm   Post subject: Mignini Trial   

Well, Mignini is starting his trial right about now for the Narducci case line taps, so prepare for the Knox camp bringing this up again...and again...and again...and...

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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 3:53 am   Post subject: Re: Mignini Trial   

Michael wrote:
Well, Mignini is starting his trial right about now for the Narducci case line taps, so prepare for the Knox camp bringing this up again...and again...and again...and...


....and it was then adjourned until the 18th March.

Corriere dell'Umbria
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 5:30 am   Post subject: Benito Mignini   

Hello Brian,
Good news that the evil fascist Mignini has his court case adjourned until March.
It will give him more time now and enable him to keep a clear head in his fanatical life quest to frame an innocent hard working and studious student who he had never met in his life before this case - with murder, theft, sexual violence and slander.

Hasn't he seen the pictures of her when she was a child? She must be innocent...

Authorizing a wire tap during an investigation really "sucks".

I think he should be strung up with piano wire in public for this.

It is absolutely despicable what he has done and far worse than murder - therefore disqualifying any credibilty he may have had before and certainly not the right type of person to prosecute a murder.

I believe there are balconies in Perugia still in existence where once Benito Mussolini preached to the townfolk but I think this murder case will be held in court.
Sarc off...

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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:25 am   Post subject:    

New "superwitness" places Amanda in the vicinity of the cottage at 7:45am on the morning of the 2nd November.

Il Giornale dell'Umbria
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 3:41 pm   Post subject:    

Brian S. wrote:
New "superwitness" places Amanda in the vicinity of the cottage at 7:45am on the morning of the 2nd November.

Il Giornale dell'Umbria


After one year: Well, I saw Amanda on that day.
Hmmm...
(A bit reminds me of the 30 or so women who one week before the election testified that Schwarzenegger had harrassed them, long time ago in a galaxy far away.)

More can be read here:
http://www.tgcom.mediaset.it/cronaca/ar ... 3241.shtml


Mez, teste vide Amanda il 2/11
Ma giovane afferma che era a casa

"Ho visto Amanda, la mattina del ritrovamento del cadavere di Meredith fare spesa alle 7,45". Un nuovo testimone dell'inchiesta sull'omicidio di Meredith Kercher inchioda l'imputata che sarà giudicata dalla corte d'Assise con l'ex fidanzato Raffaele Sollecito a dicembre. L'uomo dice di aver riconosciuto la ragazza la mattina successiva all'omicidio, mentre la Knox sostiene di aver dormito fino alle 10.


Il testimonie, secondo il "Giornale dell'Umbria", è stato ascoltato sabato dal procuratore Giuliano Mignini, che coordina le indagini. L'uomo sostiene di avere visto la studentessa americana il 2 novembre, alle 7,45 (quando il cadavere di Meredith non era ancora stato scoperto), in un esercizio commerciale nella zona di piazza Grimana, poco distante dalla casa dell'omicidio. Il testimone, che dice di conoscere Raffaele, spiega che aveva notato in passato anche la ragazza che era con lui.

"Quella mattina - racconta - si è recata nella parte del negozio dove ci sono anche i detersivi, ma non so dire con certezza se poi abbia acquistato qualcosa. Una volta uscita - prosegue il testimone, un cliente dello stesso negozio - non si è diretta verso la parte alta della via (dove c'è casa di Sollecito), ma verso piazza Grimana", quindi proprio in direzione della villetta del delitto.

Amanda Knox e Raffaele Sollecito sono in attesa del processo davanti alla corte d'Assise di Perugia il 4 dicembre. Mentre il giovane ivoriano Rudy Guede è stato condannato a 30 anni di reclusione con il rito abbreviato. Tutti si sono sempre dichiarati innocenti.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 4:09 pm   Post subject:    

Raffaele November 5/6 2007:

“She told me that when she got home, she found the door wide open and blood stains in the small bathroom. She asked me whether I thought it was strange. I said I did and advised her to phone her friends. She told me she’d phoned Filomena and that Meredith wasn’t answering”.

Timing:

12:07 Amanda calls Meredith's UK cellphone
12:08 Amanda calls Filomena
12:11 Amanda calls Meredith's Italian cellphone (borrowed from Filomena)
12:12 Filomena calls Amanda
12:20 Filomena calls Amanda

12:26 Postal Police arrives


So Amanda was practically continuously talking from 12:07 to at least 12:13

And all that before he told Raffaele that she had found the cottage strange.

Comparing Raffaele's version with the timeline one sees that they only had about 3 minutes unaccounted time to check the house, try to kick the door, contemplate the burglary traces, tryi to climb to Meredith's window.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 4:11 pm   Post subject: Re: Mignini Trial   

Brian S. wrote:
Michael wrote:
Well, Mignini is starting his trial right about now for the Narducci case line taps, so prepare for the Knox camp bringing this up again...and again...and again...and...


....and it was then adjourned until the 18th March.

Corriere dell'Umbria


Hi Brian. Indeed. I feel the Knox Camp were dearly hoping that all sorts of sordid details about Mignini would emerge that they could publicly disect and use to demonstrate his 'evilness' and argue, therefore, all the accusations against AK and RS must be false and lies. But, now its been adjourned until March and they won't be able to disect it until then at the earliest. My, what a shame!

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 4:14 pm   Post subject: Phone Times   

bolint wrote:
Raffaele November 5/6 2007:

“She told me that when she got home, she found the door wide open and blood stains in the small bathroom. She asked me whether I thought it was strange. I said I did and advised her to phone her friends. She told me she’d phoned Filomena and that Meredith wasn’t answering”.

Timing:

12:07 Amanda calls Meredith's UK cellphone
12:08 Amanda calls Filomena
12:11 Amanda calls Meredith's Italian cellphone (borrowed from Filomena)
12:12 Filomena calls Amanda
12:20 Filomena calls Amanda

12:26 Postal Police arrives


So Amanda was practically continuously talking from 12:07 to at least 12:13

And all that before he told Raffaele that she had found the cottage strange.

Comparing Raffaele's version with the timeline one sees that they only had about 3 minutes unaccounted time to check the house, try to kick the door, contemplate the burglary traces, tryi to climb to Meredith's window.


Hi Bolint. Are you using The Cook's timeline for those calls? You know to be careful with that don't you?

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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 4:21 pm   Post subject:    

"Are you using The Cook's timeline for those calls? You know to be careful with that don't you?"

Yes I use that one as I don't have other call list.
But I am careful, because I'm arguing that even that call list is incompatible with Raffaele's version.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 4:29 pm   Post subject: TIMELINES   

bolint wrote:
"Are you using The Cook's timeline for those calls? You know to be careful with that don't you?"

Yes I use that one as I don't have other call list.
But I am careful, because I'm arguing that even that call list is incompatible with Raffaele's version.


Hi Bolint. Well, there is our Timeline which also has times of calls (which don't all gel with The Cook's) here:

COMPREHENSIVE TIMELINE (PRIMARY)

It may of course transpire that her call times are correct, but the problem is we cannot corroborate them since no other media source has published those times and she refuses to make the documents she claims to posess public.

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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 4:43 pm   Post subject:    

Michael wrote:
"there is our Timeline which also has times of calls (...)
It may of course transpire that her call times are correct, but the problem is we cannot corroborate them since no other media source has published those times and she refuses to make the documents she claims to posess public. "


I know that timeline, too (it was one of the first thing I read at this site).
I'm also aware of the problem of reliability or contradicting/biased/fake info.
But this site's timeline has no recorded events in the interval I discussed (between the time when Amanda starts to talk to Raffaele about "the strange things" and the time of the arrival of Postal Police).
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 5:00 pm   Post subject:    

As for the timeline:
"'Dawn' Mobile phones switched back on (Would be great to have an actual time for this event!) "

It is 6:02. An SMS arrives informing him of the call of his father the night before.
"Quello di Raffaele è muto dalle 21. Verrà riacceso alle 6.02 quando arriva l’sms che lo informa della chiamata del padre della sera prima."
(Source: La Nazione Erika Pontini 10 ottobre 2008)
http://wildgreta.wordpress.com/2008/10/ ... cerazione/


Though this does not necessarily mean that his phone was switched on at immediately before that time, but it could have probably been so.

Even if it was switched on at that time it does not necesarily mean that someone switched it on.

For example I set one of my phones to automatically switch off at 23:30.
Though I can't set it to switch on at 6:00 I would do it if I could and I can't exclude that handsets exist with that capability and Raffaele"s may be such one. (But in this case his defense probably would have said so.)

The 6:02 SMS arrivale time is quite compatible with an automatic 6:00 switch on.

But we don't know the truth. Yet.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 5:05 pm   Post subject: New witness?   

Quote:
Bolint wrote:

After one year: Well, I saw Amanda on that day.
Hmmm...
(A bit reminds me of the 30 or so women who one week before the election testified that Schwarzenegger had harrassed them, long time ago in a galaxy far away.)


If in fact this witness was unknown to investigators until yesterday, that would be problematic. But just as problematic for me is the fact that cellphones were turned on at 5:45 am by people who claimed that they slept until 10 am. In the case of Raffaele, the SC mentions this as one of several clues that Sollecito lied about. Is it known for certain that this witness has only just come forward now? In any case, as with any witness, the credibility of this one will be scrutinized and tested. I wonder what the testimony of the owner of the laundromat is and whether it relates to what this witness claims to have seen.

Here's the gist of the article for anyone who doesn't read Italian. And I apologize in advance for any errors this contains due to my own very imperfect reading knowledge of Italian:
On the morning of November 2, this witness says he saw Amanda Knox make a purchase at 7:45 am. This male witness says he recognized Knox on the morning after the murder, while Knox claims she was sleeping until 10:00 am. According to one of the regional papers (Il Giornale dell'Umbria), this witness gave a deposition to Giuliano Mignin, who is coordinating the investigation. The man says he saw the American student at 7:45 am on the morning of November 2 (before the body of Meredith was discovered), on a shop-lined street near Grimana square not far from the cottage where the murder occurred. The witness, who says he knows Raffaele Sollecito, explains that he had seen the girl with him before. On this particular morning, while he can't say for certain what was purchased (if anything), he saw her (or them?) go off not up the street (in the direction of Sollecito's flat) but towards Grimana square, in the direction of the cottage.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 5:11 pm   Post subject: Re: Timelines   

bolint wrote:
Michael wrote:
"there is our Timeline which also has times of calls (...)
It may of course transpire that her call times are correct, but the problem is we cannot corroborate them since no other media source has published those times and she refuses to make the documents she claims to posess public. "


I know that timeline, too (it was one of the first thing I read at this site).
I'm also aware of the problem of reliability or contradicting/biased/fake info.
But this site's timeline has no recorded events in the interval I discussed (between the time when Amanda starts to talk to Raffaele about "the strange things" and the time of the arrival of Postal Police).


I have no problem at all with the Cook's times being used in order to raise questions or make points, I simply wanted to make sure the reader knew to use even more caution then normal when considering them, due to their source, that's all.

You are quite right, the gaps are a problem, whichever Timeline they are exomined under.

But it isn't just the obvious gaps that cover both of them but each individually also. For example, whilst Amanda was making her phonecalls, what was RS doing?

There are also other problems. Why did Amanda tell Filomena that she was 'going to call Raffaele' when he was already there?

How did they know nothing was missing, when both have said that they never stepped foot in Filomena's room. How can one tell simply by glancing in through the doorway, especially with everything in a mess in there?

Why did Amanda walk back to get RS instead of simply call him on the phone? If it was to take the mop over, why not still phone him beforehand to tell him what she'd discovered at the cottage and ask for advice?

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 5:21 pm   Post subject: Re: Timelines   

Bollint wrote:
As for the timeline:
"'Dawn' Mobile phones switched back on (Would be great to have an actual time for this event!) "

It is 6:02. An SMS arrives informing him of the call of his father the night before.
"Quello di Raffaele è muto dalle 21. Verrà riacceso alle 6.02 quando arriva l’sms che lo informa della chiamata del padre della sera prima."
(Source: La Nazione Erika Pontini 10 ottobre 2008)
http://wildgreta.wordpress.com/2008/10/ ... cerazione/


Thanks Bollint. I've added it to the Timeline.

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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 5:23 pm   Post subject:    

I was thinking on these contradictions.

It thus seems, that

- Either these phone calls in the Candace timeline are non-sense,
- Or Amanada lied to Raffaele and he didn't notice the calls she made later,
- Or Raffaele lies in this account
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 5:28 pm   Post subject: Re: Timeline   

Skep wrote:
The witness, who says he knows Raffaele Sollecito, explains that he had seen the girl with him before. On this particular morning, while he can't say for certain what was purchased (if anything), he saw her (or them?) go off not up the street (in the direction of Sollecito's flat) but towards Grimana square, in the direction of the cottage.


Hi Skep and thanks. The above has also now been added to the Timeline.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 5:33 pm   Post subject: What has this got to do with that?   

Michael wrote:

Quote:
Brian S. wrote:
Michael wrote:
Well, Mignini is starting his trial right about now for the Narducci case line taps, so prepare for the Knox camp bringing this up again...and again...and again...and...
....and it was then adjourned until the 18th March.

Hi Brian. Indeed. I feel the Knox Camp were dearly hoping that all sorts of sordid details about Mignini would emerge that they could publicly disect and use to demonstrate his 'evilness' and argue, therefore, all the accusations against AK and RS must be false and lies. But, now its been adjourned until March and they won't be able to disect it until then at the earliest. My, what a shame!


I have no idea what anyone was hoping would emerge from this hearing, but it seems to me that there are two things that have been utterly lacking from the start:

1. An answer to the question of what this has to do with the murder of Meredith Kercher;

2. An answer to the question of how serious the charges against Mignini are. As far as I know, he does not risk being barred from his profession for life. It seems that this is a fairly routine case of a prosecutor being accused of overstepping his bounds in relation to one particular pending investigation. Prosecutors walk a fairly fine line and sometimes step over that line. Sometimes they get pulled offsides. It's part of the game. But it's not like he killed anyone, is it?

Anyway, a coherent answer to the first question would be a good start. Personally, I think it is a waste of time at this point for the defense camp to focus on making this connection, particularly since Mignini won't be back in court until March.

Had Doug Preston and Mario Spezi not done their best to capitalize on this one, for reasons I maintain are both commercial and highly personal, nobody would be talking about it today. That's my view. It's not a red herring. It is a diversionary tactic, and it has been played over and over since last January or so. :roll:
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 5:33 pm   Post subject: Re: Timelines   

bolint wrote:
I was thinking on these contradictions.

It thus seems, that

- Either these phone calls in the Candace timeline are non-sense,
- Or Amanada lied to Raffaele and he didn't notice the calls she made later,
- Or Raffaele lies in this account


Or, a combination of the above :)

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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 5:42 pm   Post subject: Re: New witness?   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
"Is it known for certain that this witness has only just come forward
now?"

It looks like that.
These are new witnesses according to the reports.

For example these two below seem to be two new witnesses (and not the lady who heard the scream and the running steps).

One of them heard a man-woman quarrel in Italian and then a scream, the other heard running steps.


"Un altro avrebbe affermato di avere udito un urlo dalla casa di via della Pergola, abitata da Meredith e Amanda, fra le 22,30 e le 23 della notte di Ognissanti, ciò dopo che dalla villetta si percepì una “litigata” in italiano tra un uomo ed una donna.
L’ultimo testimone, ha riferito di avere sentito passi di corsa in via del Melo, nei pressi di via della Pergola, nella prima parte della notte."




In any case, as with any witness, the credibility of this one will be scrutinized and tested. I wonder what the testimony of the owner of the laundromat is and whether it relates to what this witness claims to have seen.

Here's the gist of the article for anyone who doesn't read Italian. And I apologize in advance for any errors this contains due to my own very imperfect reading knowledge of Italian:
On the morning of November 2, this witness says he saw Amanda Knox make a purchase at 7:45 am. This male witness says he recognized Knox on the morning after the murder, while Knox claims she was sleeping until 10:00 am. According to one of the regional papers (Il Giornale dell'Umbria), this witness gave a deposition to Giuliano Mignin, who is coordinating the investigation. The man says he saw the American student at 7:45 am on the morning of November 2 (before the body of Meredith was discovered), on a shop-lined street near Grimana square not far from the cottage where the murder occurred. The witness, who says he knows Raffaele Sollecito, explains that he had seen the girl with him before. On this particular morning, while he can't say for certain what was purchased (if anything), he saw her (or them?) go off not up the street (in the direction of Sollecito's flat) but towards Grimana square, in the direction of the cottage.[/quote]
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 5:45 pm   Post subject: Mignini   

Skep wrote:
Anyway, a coherent answer to the first question would be a good start. Personally, I think it is a waste of time at this point for the defense camp to focus on making this connection, particularly since Mignini won't be back in court until March.

Had Doug Preston and Mario Spezi not done their best to capitalize on this one, for reasons I maintain are both commercial and highly personal, nobody would be talking about it today. That's my view. It's not a red herring. It is a diversionary tactic, and it has been played over and over since last January or so.


Exactomundo!

And, we also know were it not for Amanda Knox, Candace wouldn't be currently promoting a blog on the Mignini matter. Despite her claims that journalists being locked up is of interest, it wouldn't have interested her one jot had he not been the same prosecutor in charge of the Knox case...after all, all around the World, in various states, journalists are in jail. Indeed, in reading her, one could imagine Mignini is the only person ever anywhere to sling some journalists in the cooler. Indeed, the very fact that Mignini is facing charges on the matter proves the Italian system WORKS.

Of course, none of this has a single point of relevance in regard to the evidence against the suspects in this case, with which multiple judges, on multiple occassions have agreed.

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Last edited by Michael on Sun Nov 16, 2008 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 5:46 pm   Post subject:    

Sorry, I screwed it up.
The last two paragraphs have benn left there unintentionally.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 5:59 pm   Post subject: New Witness   

New Twist In Meredith Murder Case

Amanda Knox was seen shopping in the early hours of the morning and was not at her boyfriend's house, a new witness in the Meredith Kercher murder trial has claimed.

...a new witness has now told detectives he saw the American in the cleaning section of a convenience store just hours before Meredith was found stabbed to death.

She was acting suspiciously, she had covered her face, that's why I couldn't get a good look at it, it was as if she didn't want to be recognised.

He said: ''She was wearing a grey hooded jacket, zipped up to the top, jeans and grey blue scarf which was wrapped around her face, she also wore a light coloured hat.

''''I know it was her, I had seen her in the Corso Garibaldi (the street where Sollecito lived). I know Sollecito by sight and in the days before the murder I saw the American girl with him.

''I had looked at them closely because I always used to see Sollecito on his own. That's why it struck me.''

SKY NEWS

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Last edited by Michael on Sun Nov 16, 2008 6:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 6:20 pm   Post subject:    

"However, police who searched Sollecito's house days after the murder found a receipt for cleaning products from the shop where Knox was allegedly seen.

Detectives believe bleach and cloths found under the sink at Sollecito's house were used to clean up the murder weapon - a knife - and the murder scene itself
." (Sky News)

It would be very interesting if the bleach receipt was from 2 November and the cleaning products were bought at approximately with 7.45 am. It would lend considerable weight to the witness's account.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 6:49 pm   Post subject: Bleach and receipts   

Bolint wrote:

Quote:
Sorry, I screwed it up.
The last two paragraphs have benn left there unintentionally.


No worries!

TM,
About the bleach receipts. The AK local defense effort in general, Chris Mellas in particular, has always denied the existence of these receipts. It will be interesting to see if such receipts exist. However, it seems to me that receipts of this kind would be the first thing to get tossed by someone engaged in cleaning up after a murder. If bleach was purchased, it would be harder to get rid of quickly. You don't want to pour a gallon of bleach down your toilet or kitchen sink. If you place the empty container in a dumpster, you have to make sure that no one sees you and that you do it just before rubbish pick-up day, to prevent anyone who may be snooping around from finding it and collecting it as evidence. If the container is not empty, placing it in a dumpster is a real hazard.

In other words, getting rid of this kind of evidence is not as easy as some would claim. But burning a receipt or just balling it up and tossing it in a public receptacle is the easiest thing in the world. This is one of the reasons I have always doubted the existence of physical receipts. And I also doubt that anyone would have used a bank card to pay for these purchases. We would have heard about it by now.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 6:58 pm   Post subject:    

"This is one of the reasons I have always doubted the existence of physical receipts"

It can be partially checked among the receipts preserved by the shop.

And, as I heard it, in Italy also buyers have to preserve receipts because within a specific distance (50m?) from the shop they must produce it for checking if requested by a taxman.

Is it true?
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 7:02 pm   Post subject:    

"Is it true?"

Yes it's true.

"Keep Your Receipt - Today as we left the bread shop, we were approached by an official from the finance department who asked us to produce the receipt for what we had just bought. Shops, bars, and restaurants are obligated to give the customer a receipt and the customer is supposed to take it. While I've never seen anyone stopped before, apparently it's being enforced."
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 7:12 pm   Post subject: Re: New witness?   

bolint wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
"Is it known for certain that this witness has only just come forward
now?"

It looks like that.
These are new witnesses according to the reports.

For example these two below seem to be two new witnesses (and not the lady who heard the scream and the running steps).

One of them heard a man-woman quarrel in Italian and then a scream, the other heard running steps.


It's hard to tell how "new" these witnesses are.

It also pays to bear in mind "just how the Italian system works".

The 10,000 pages allegedly contained evidence from 50+ witnesses. The purpose of the 10,000 pages was presentation at the pre-trial in order to obtain a decision to proceed to a full trial.

Suddenly, there are allegedly now in excess or a 100 witnesses to be called to the full trial, which some say could last 8 months. I would suggest that having obtained the full trial decision from Micheli, the prosecution is re-interviewing many existing witnesses in preparation for a much more detailed presentation at the full trial. I don't think 50 new witnesses have just come out of thin air.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 7:18 pm   Post subject:    

I think they will call in quite a number of policemen who seized the various things, say five in the house, another five in Sollecito's place, just to prove taht there was no DNA contamination during the transfer from the houses to the laboratory.
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 7:23 pm   Post subject: Re: Bleach and receipts   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:

About the bleach receipts. The AK local defense effort in general, Chris Mellas in particular, has always denied the existence of these receipts. It will be interesting to see if such receipts exist.


Chris Mellas is not a reliable source of information. He has claimed:

The hair of an African man was found in Meredith's hand.
He had spoken to Raffaele a couple of times on the phone/that he had never spoken to Raffaele.
He was shocked when he found out that the knife wasn't going to be entered as evidence.
The defence were going to make some statling revelations at the pre-trial that they hadn't been able to previously.

I'm not surprised he's not allowed to be involved in the PR campaign.

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
But burning a receipt or just balling it up and tossing it in a public receptacle is the easiest thing in the world.


True, but Amanda and Raffaele have made some vey silly mistakes:

Not returning Amanda's lamp to her room after using it to clean up Meredith's room.
Giving completely different accounts of where they were, who they were with and what they were doing on the night of the murder.
Writing notes to each other in the police station about what they had been doing.
Telling witnesses information about Meredith's death that they could not have known if they hadn't been present.
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Offline Mutley


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 8:06 pm   Post subject:    

Their biggest mistake on the cleanup was throwing away the telephones, starting a chain reaction that culminated in the police turning up before they had finished the crime staging. The other mistakes make sense in the context of a hurried conclusion. They needed time alone together to get their stories co-ordinated and failed. Add to that the mix of adrenaline and possibly drugs and a lack of sleep after a frenzied cleanup and silly mistakes became inevitable. There have been lots of conflicting reports of receipts and when they are dated, but given their probable states of mind I would not be surprised if they overlooked simple details while focusing on removing their traces from the horrific crime scene.

RS made a reference when changing his story about not having thought about the 'contradictions'. His startling arrogance about his own brilliance shines out. He made a sneering reference to those 'stupid' policemen without ever considering the possibility that they had bugged the phone and were recording him. It's left a lot of holes in their stories, the most glaring being that RS does not even give an alibi for AK post 9pm. Perhaps his own arrogance will be his undoing. He wont be the first.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 8:38 pm   Post subject: Bleach and more   

I wrote:

"This is one of the reasons I have always doubted the existence of physical receipts"

Bolint wrote:

"It can be partially checked among the receipts preserved by the shop.
And, as I heard it, in Italy also buyers have to preserve receipts because within a specific distance (50m?) from the shop they must produce it for checking if requested by a taxman.
Is it true?"

And added
"Yes it's true."

And quoted:
"Keep Your Receipt - Today as we left the bread shop, we were approached by an official from the finance department who asked us to produce the receipt for what we had just bought. Shops, bars, and restaurants are obligated to give the customer a receipt and the customer is supposed to take it. While I've never seen anyone stopped before, apparently it's being enforced."

I remember this coming up several months ago. But seriously, the penalty for not being able to produce a receipt for a bottle of bleach (just as an example) that you have just bought is probably is not as serious as the penalty for murder, rape, theft, etc. I guess if I had done something of this magnitude, I would probably take that risk. :) On the other hand, sometimes it's the little mistakes that mess you up, right Mutley? :)

For anyone in this situation, this would be quite a dilemma, especially if one had been up all night. Lack of sleep impairs judgement, as we all know.

I'm sure the neighboring shops have all been questioned. If there are records of such purchases, they are in the case file.

And while I agree with TM wholeheartedly that Chris Mellas has been caught in too many lies to be taken at his word, I also think that I will have to see the bleach receipts presented as evidence before I am convinced.

However, I wouldn't consider a lack thereof to be necessarily indicative of anything. But it would be a huge coincidence if the pair claimed they just happened to buy bleach on the morning of November 2, when they were supposed to be sleeping, because they got a sudden hankering to meticulously clean Raffaele's entire knife collection or to wash all their whites at 90°. You know, the kind of thing one does at 7 am on a Friday morning when one has no classes.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 8:41 pm   Post subject: How old new witnesses?   

Brian wrote:

Quote:
Bolint wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
"Is it known for certain that this witness has only just come forward
now?"

It looks like that.
These are new witnesses according to the reports.

For example these two below seem to be two new witnesses (and not the lady who heard the scream and the running steps).

One of them heard a man-woman quarrel in Italian and then a scream, the other heard running steps.


It's hard to tell how "new" these witnesses are.

It also pays to bear in mind "just how the Italian system works".

The 10,000 pages allegedly contained evidence from 50+ witnesses. The purpose of the 10,000 pages was presentation at the pre-trial in order to obtain a decision to proceed to a full trial.

Suddenly, there are allegedly now in excess or a 100 witnesses to be called to the full trial, which some say could last 8 months. I would suggest that having obtained the full trial decision from Micheli, the prosecution is re-interviewing many existing witnesses in preparation for a much more detailed presentation at the full trial. I don't think 50 new witnesses have just come out of thin air.



That's what I was thinking, Brian. Let's wait and see who these people are and how long they have been on Mignini's radar.
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 9:43 pm   Post subject: Intellectual arrogance   

Mutley,
I concur.
I have said his before but the intellectual arrogance of Sollecito (and Knox) will and has come back to bite them on the bum.
Sollecito as you mentioned above, then the two of them together thinking they are real smart by doing a partial cleanup, with the intention of removing their traces but leaving Rudy's there for all to see.

This in my view is why it became apparent to Rudy and his lawyer of a possible frame up on the cards here.

This can be seen in the very (by all accounts) untidy and messy Knox when the forensic scientists found her room to be almost sterile by lab standards and the fact that she purposely did not flush the toilet on encountering it as she knew it was Rudy who left the said deposit and would be a sure fire proof that he was at the scene.
Knox was heard by all and sundry to almost obsessively mention over and over again about "shit" being in the toilet, in her own inimitable way.
This backfired on her too as how would she know it was Rudy's if she wasn't there herself?
The arrogance of the pair is still being seen today, in the merry dance they are trying but failing to send seasoned prosecutors on.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 9:56 pm   Post subject: Re: Intellectual Arrogance   

DF2k wrote:
This backfired on her too as how would she know it was Rudy's if she wasn't there herself?


Hi DF2K :) Just to correct you there, Amanda never said that the crap was Rudy's. I fully agree with you on everything else though!

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:07 pm   Post subject: The Big C is back   

Chris Mellas wrote:
Posted by cmellas at 11/16/08 1:54 p.m. 217415Posted by cmellas at 11/16/08 1:54 p.m.


I'm sorry if I misled people when I mentioned "Amanda Knox's supporters" at the top of this page. I wasn't really thinking of my fellow posters there, even though some of you might be "supporters" of Amanda Knox (whatever that means). I was thinking of people like Michael Heavey and Anne Bremner - people whose ill-advised and ill-informed interventions have actively undermined the case of the very person they are claiming to "support". It's not surprising that Amanda's defense team, and Amanda's father, have taken pains to distance themselves from this kind of "supporter".


Posted by FinnMacCool at 11/16/08 12:37 a.m.



Excuse me Finn?
I think not.
Newsweek Barbie will shortly be dealt for the statement you refer to. It is complete BS and she knows it…and now, so do you so don't ever repeat it again.
As for Mike and Anne. They are not acting on behalf of the family, true, BUT, we are incredibly happy for what they are doing.
Curt NEVER said anything against the Friends of Amanda. Barbie is a complete liar.
You, finn, should not trust everything you read in the media.

As for Anne and Mike and the rest of the group:
It is not their fault that the judge had no balls to stand up for what's right.
It is not their fault that he cited media influence and a support group from the US as reason for keeping Amanda locked up.
Not in the least. It is the judges fault. He is a weak man.
What Anne and mike did, helped. It allowed the reality of this case to be shown to the world. Something that we the family could not do. We simply are not allowed to. For this, and all else they do, I am grateful.

This case went to trial, not because of an abundance of evidence. This case went to trial because mignini/stefanoni drug their feet and wasted the courts time in arguing the knife. As a result, the knife remained without proper discussion one way or another. As a result, even a minor question that is left unanswered is cause for trial, if the court runs out of time at the pretrial.

For those who are wondering what is going to happen on Dec 4th. Don't listen to "yummi". S/he has no clue.
It is going to be nothing more than administrative stuff and the following hearing will be a bit more case related, but only if we get through all the administrative stuff from Dec 4th.
I know, because I ask our lawyers...the ones who are actually involved in the case. Not some pos(t)er named "yummi"

Now, how about a little on the topic?

I think it is relevant to discuss Mignini's past dealings as far as his conduct and behavior are concerned.
It shows that Mignini is a tad off center, at the very least. (I can call him this, since he can call Amanda a murderer, etc)
We are all entitled to our opinion. We are part of the case. It is our license.
Between what he thinks and who he listens to…It is, in a way, a demonstration of his character flaws.
It scares me to think that this guy is in charge of prosecuting my stepdaughter. It is why she is being prosecuted.
So, is it relevant? I think so!
While we are on the topic of the MoF. There is a tie between the two. They are no longer 100% separate.
Carlizzi told Mignini that Amanda and Meredith were part of the same group, the brotherhood of the rose, and that is why he all of a sudden got happy with the satan crap. His "mini-mignini" or #2 told him to do it. Just like she did in the Narducci case.
She is so out there, calling her off center doesn't even begin to describe her.

Now, it is true that Mignini, once again, for the third time, dropped the satan babble, but it in no way means that he no longer believes it. It means that he was told to drop it by the last judge. Will he bring it up again? No telling but if given the chance, I would say it is highly likely.

Oh…here is a good one! And case related too.
At the pretrial, the prosecution tried to show that there was a cleanup. They showed swirls and all sorts of stuff on the floor. This was not in blood, just whatever it was, cleaning detergent or whatever (there was no analysis done so there is no telling what it is, but my guess is whatever is used to mop the floors is what left the swirls and whatever is used on the mop is what we are seeing in the swirls, ie floor cleaner… and it is too late to do an analysis now. Unfortunately, we were not told of this detail, we had to find it in the huge, yet mostly worthless, pile of paper that is the case file). Anyways, what they didn't show was perfectly intact blood droplets in many of these swirl patterns. So you must ask yourself how this can be? Satan perhaps?
Anyone care to show me how you would clean, making contiguous wiping patterns, but not affect in any way blood drops that you are wiping over?
I'll save you the time. It is impossible.
This "cleanup" thing is nothing more than overactive imaginations, yet again, affecting the interpretation of investigation.

Same goes for the "knife" pattern found on the bed. It is garbage too except in this case, even the police agree.
The report listing it states that they tried to match the knife to the pattern found, and they were not able to. Someone earlier on this blog was talking about that. It is one of those details that some press idiot here in Italy got wrong and it then traveled all over the world.

Finally, I am not sticking around to answer questions so I would not bother to ask. Sorry.
Post and run, it's what I have to do.

-C
(I wonder if mignini sees the -c as a satanic pitchfork, and as a result, sees me as satanic? I guess he would not need to stretch that far, I am after all associated with the most heinous. A harry potter reader and we all know they are the most diabolical of all. What he doesn't know is that I am a step worse even...I watched the movies rather than just read.)




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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:12 pm   Post subject:    

Hi Michael,
Agreed, Knox is not on record as stating this.
I was looking at it from the view of why did she not simply flush the toilet?
She must have known it was proof of Rudy being there so left it for investigators to see.
Who on noticing such a thing would then just go ahead and stay in there for 10-15 minutes drying their hair with the obvious stinking the room out?
Why not simply flush the loo?

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Meredith Kercher.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:18 pm   Post subject: Frank Has New Post   

Frank has a new post up:

PERUGIA SHOCK: GENIUS OR EVIL

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THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:25 pm   Post subject:    

CBS News know about the latest twist in the case, but haven't run the story yet. I suppose it doesn't fit with their "Amanda is being railroaded" angle. Doug Longhini isn't replying to any messages right now. It's funny how Doug Longhini, Paul Ciolino, Doug Preston etc have gone very quiet recently.

Harry Rag just had a post deleted on Candace Dempsey's blog whilst one of the "intellectuals" who posts there has got away with the deeply offensive comment that Meredith and Rudy may have had a date despite the fact that Rudy Guede has been found guilty of murdering and sexually assaulting Meredith:

"AK returns to the flat to change clothes after learning that she was not going to work. She arrives during the date(?) of MK and RG but does not get a clear enough look at RG to be able to identify him. All of a sudden she hears MK's screams and hides briefly within the flat before exiting. She had gotten enough of a glimpse of RG to determine that the person is black. Hence, the accusation of PL. If this is in any way, shape, or form, close to what might have happened, can you imagine the shock and fear involved compounded with the possibility of some pot within the system? "
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:53 pm   Post subject:    

Apart from Finn and Kermit, most of the posters on Candace Dempsey's blog don't talk much sense. However, Yummi has surprised me with this post when she reprimands Candace :lol: :

Posted by Yummi at 11/15/08 5:02 p.m.

The prosecution has tried to place both RS & AK in the murder room. So far depending on a tiny bra clasp (RS) with other people's DNA on it. For Amanda, well, that's your argument.

"Candace,

I don't feel that your statement corresponds with reality.
The clues against AK and RS come from some areas of complex evidence:
- The "broken window" staging
- The complex evidence of a cleanup

- The presence of multiple kind of residual traces (like footprints and shoeprints) means multiple presence

Notice: the first block of c evidence - based upon the scientific and circumstantial, is the inconsistency of the "robbery theory" so evidence of staging, and the scientific evidence of a "cleanup" – this bloc of evidence points to a person belonging to an inner circle. Not precisely to AK and RS. But, the main power of it is that excludes any other person who is not closed to the house. It is a very big evidence, not a simple piece of clue. THIS is one of the first basis to "place" Amanda and Raf on the scene of crime.

The defenses know hat they have to attack it, and decide in which way attack it. This case may lead to convicting of the defendants not because of physical evidence, like DNA, but because it is the classic "murder in the cottage" where the main point is the impossibility of an external perpetrator (as in the Cogne case).
A murder has an interest in attributing the action to an area different from his. Does not have an interest to say that the murder comes from Bologna if he is from Bologna. So if they discover a *sure staging that was meant to point attention outside the cottage, the murderer must be inside the cottage or closely related. So the main point is that he was a friendly person to Meredith. Or at least had the door keys. Observe that the cleanup ads more details to the staging, because it does not just regard the attribution of the crime, but interacts also with the timing: the cleanup requires a return on place of the murderer for some time. This element - especially if crossed with Nara's testimony (that may be reliable or not) – anyway kicks away the theory of an external accomplished with Guede: why should they return on the place? The complex aftermath staging starts with the undressing of the victim, that partially was made after the death. The bra is cut with a knife.

The defenses can attack the staging evidence it in two basic ways: 1) Deny the staging, endorsing a possibility of intrusion though the window; 2) admitting the staging, with a possible attribution to the to someone else. The choice leads to different strategies. They are difficult enough. And then, they will have to bear as well the problem of the aftermath staging.

Now, there are more problems that focus on AK and RS. 1. They appear to be lying about the PP arrival. 2. Their cellphones switching on in full night contradict their alibis timing 3. There is no clear reason for why Amanda lied accusing another person 4. Their versions do not match fully to each other (in some striking points) while they're giving each other an alibi 5. There is an anomalous low grade of information in Sollecito's and Amanda's stories in regards to a specific period of time 6. There are quite unrealistic and contradicted (by Amanda) statements in Raffaele's account of facts (like the knife story). 7. There are changings and confusing elements in Amanda's testimony. 8. There are changing elements in Raffaele's story. 9. Most people in the inner circle have a solid alibi. 10. Knowledge, by AK, of some details of the victim's death and body before the police knew or without giving convincing reasons.

I can understand that there are people that do not consider this list of clues as forming a possible evidence. But in the reasoning, they will be used crossing it with the evidence number one, that points into the inner circle. So the clues are acting in a very small frame.

To those, we add one other elements: Raffaele's DNA on a bra clasp. This is a bit of concern, because it could be accepted by the court at least as authentic (not contaminated in laboratory), maybe a clue.

But the worse is the testimony of a homeless called Antonio Curatolo.
I've read some main statements of his testimony (in Italian), and if accepted by the court, this alone would be considered evidence, not a clue. It is very precise, also originally interesting, and would be a brick on Amanda's and Raffaele's fate if considered true. This witness is the real evidence that places directly the two on the time and scene of crime.

There are, plus, some secondary clues. 1. Filomena's disagreements about the door locking. 2. Unrealistic accounts by Raffaele when says he can't knock down a door. 3. Alleged reasons of possible irritation by Meredith against Amanda, that could have lead to arguing or provocation. (motives for an argue degenerating in fight) 4. Unrealistic elements in Amanda's story about that morning or very strange behavior, sees blood stains, goes back to Raffaele's, showers etc., and behavioral aspects of her after the finding of the body 5. Amanda's blood stains in the bathroom, that can have many origins, but are also compatible with washing off blood (nose bleeding or dirty hands) after a fight. 6. Raffaele always has a knife with him, therefore he is always a weapon carrier. 7. A washing machine showed that at least some cleanup was made for sure by Amanda.

*

So this is a summary of clues with some structure. The first blocks can be examined in depth. Some are important: observe for example the 5.30 switching on of the telephones (awake in full night) non matching with the alibis (woke up at 10.00). There are probably other clues I am forgetting. What I mean, is that it is not correct to address Mignini as just placing RS and AK on the scene of murder for "a contaminated bra clasp". It can be wrong or full of mistakes but is a complex, powerful investigation "old style", with systematic elaboration."
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:27 am   Post subject: Re: New Witness   

New Meredith Kercher witness casts doubt on Amanda Knox's alibi

However a man who says he knew Mr Sollecito and also knew Ms Knox and the cottage by sight, has told prosecutors he saw her near the cottage at 7.45 am on the day the body of Ms Kercher was discovered.

The unnamed man said “I saw Amanda shopping at 7.45 the morning Meredith’s body was found”, according to Il Giornale dell’Umbria.

He said she was in a shop near Piazza Grimana, the basketball court and public park between the cottage and the University for Foreigners. She was “in the section where they sell detergents, though I cannot say with certainty whether she bought anything”.

It is not clear why the witnesses have only now given evidence.The trial of Ms Knox and Mr Sollecito opens on 4 December. Both have been refused house arrest rather than prison while awaiting trial. The prosecution is to call a hundred witnesses during the trial.

They include Nara Capezzali, a woman who lives near the cottage and also claims she heard a “spine chilling scream” coming from it at about 11.00 pm on the evening of 1 November, and Antonio Curatolo, a homeless man who claims he saw Ms Knox and Mr Sollecito “waiting for someone” near the cottage on the evening of the murder.


THE TIMES

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Offline nowo


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:04 am   Post subject:    

Don't tell me, AK has been a misophobic somnambulist since a very young age.
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Offline Jumpy


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:30 am   Post subject:    

Frankie's English has improved remarkably.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:35 am   Post subject: Indeed   

Jumpy wrote:
Frankie's English has improved remarkably.


Hi Jumpy. It certainly has hasn't it? I read the first draught when he posted it up first time and since then, in a matter of mere hours, his English has become perfect ;)

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Offline Jumpy


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:46 am   Post subject:    

Hi Michael!
It must be the wine! I know my language skills improve that way! :)
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:03 am   Post subject: Wine?   

Jumpy wrote:
Hi Michael!
It must be the wine! I know my language skills improve that way! :)


LOL...he's certainly had a gallon of it then.

So wrapped up are both he and Dempsey in the Mignini bashing, neither a one of them have even mentioned the new superwitness. Tunnel vision and denial's a wonderful thing...and lots of wine I suppose ;)

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Offline Jumpy


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:24 am   Post subject:    

I've been playing catch up and I think the cook may be losing it.
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Offline FinnMacCool


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:43 am   Post subject:    

bolint wrote:
On Candace's blog Finn claims a number of times that what Amanda told at and before 1:45AM cannot be used against anyone, while what she told at and before 5:45AM can be used against others.

I think that the opposite is true.
The 1:45AM was a lawyerless witness interrogation so it can be used againt others, but not against Amanda, because she was lawyerless.
The 5:45AM was a lawyerless suspect's thing so it cannot be used agains anyone.


Hi Bolint - sorry, I'm only just reading your post. You're quite right, I'd misremembered the ruling and got these the wrong way round.

(You probably already realize this, but just to confirm I corrected it after rereading the Cassazione ruling.)
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:42 am   Post subject:    

It's funny the things you dig up.

I was looking for more reports about Amanda and Meredith's keys when I came upon this story from November last year.

In light of the new testimony about Amanda's visit to the shop, I think this could well be relevent. It also ties in with a suggestion I made some weeks ago that Amanda's story of the evening she spent with Raffaele on the 1st November - the shower, sitting on his bed listening to him blame himself for his mothers death etc. could have actually happened on "another night". I suggested she may have recounted this story in the hope that Raffaele would "pick up" on what she was attempting and could recount the same story in detail, thus recreating an alibi for the evening.


Raffaele against Amanda

"The only thought Amanda is the pursuit of pleasure at any time ': Raffaele urge writes to his father. Without modesty, the young Pugliese - accused along with girlfriend and Rudy Hermann that he had raped and killed Meredith Kercher - also recounts his relationship with the American twenties. Then talks about the memorial of Amanda and, consequently, the night of the murder. "We made a shower together, but not that evening....I read his memorial. Some things she says are not true. But I do not know why he says. For example, is not the one night that we did the shower together......


Google translation of Corriere Della Sera - 27 November 2007


Many people still talk of "the defences" of Amanda and Raffaele as if they were one. It seems to me that each new revelation provides further reason for Raffaele's defence to distance him from the defence of Amanda. He now says he is prepared to give evidence and be questioned on the stand. He will have to explain all these words, and many others spoken to his father in prison. It's one thing to admit a lie as he did with his admission on the 5th November about his false "party alibi" he made with Amanda. It's another thing entirely to admit to a succession of lies made over a period of months.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:44 pm   Post subject:    

"He now says he is prepared to give evidence and be questioned on the stand."

Seeing is believing.
It's only on of his lawyer, who said that.
Quite easily it coulb be simply a PR gambit.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:46 pm   Post subject:    

corr: It's only one of his lawyers who said that.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:12 pm   Post subject: Words of Raffaele   

Brian wrote:
Then talks about the memorial of Amanda and, consequently, the night of the murder. "We made a shower together, but not that evening....I read his memorial. Some things she says are not true. But I do not know why he says. For example, is not the one night that we did the shower together......


That's a good find Brian. I'd never realised that Raffaele had actually debunked Amanda's shower story about the night in question.

Also, like you, it's always been my theory that the lesbian angst/suicided mother discussion indeed happened but on a different night. This story is far more important then has been given credit for. It should not be forgotten that Amanda wrote that intending that it be a valid explanation for what happened on the night of 1st Nov. Yet, Raffaele remembered nothing of this very deep and important heart to heart discussion and her own defence have clearly steared away from using it as an alibi.

As a version of what happened on the evening of Nov 1st it is either:

a) True

b) Untrue

If it is true, then one has to ask why Amanda's defence have not said a word about it in the hearings as part of her alibi, or why it has not featured in Amanda's diary for...a 'truth' is something that gets repeated, reaffirmed. This would therefore suggest that it is in fact b) Untrue and is therefore another example of Amanda lying, but more...attempting to be cunning....throwing out a story that indeed hyappened but on 'another' night, in the hope that Raffaele would have the same idea or when questioned regarding it (she would have known that it might be likely that he may be questioned on it) a light bulb would suddenly come on and he'd say...."Oh yeah, I remember now!"

So, the question remains, why did the defence drop that story? Could it be, because Raffaele didn't bite?

Or just a thought, I remember when originally getting her lawyer (the one that was replaced) he told the press he had cautioned her against accusing other people and telling lies. He also said that Amanda wanted to change her story once again, but he had strongly advised her not to. Could it be that it was the lesbian angst/suicided mother converstaion alibi that was the new 'official' story to which she had wanted to change?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 3:55 pm   Post subject: Re: New Witness   

"I thought it was very strange for a student to be out so early in the morning. That morning was virtually a holiday, there were no lectures, if there had been I could understand her being up so early."

Prosecutors allege that Miss Knox and Mr Sollecito tried to hide any trace of their involvement in the murder by breaking a window to suggest a burglary and then scouring the murder scene with cleaning products...

The new evidence, if accepted by the court when the murder trial begins on December 4, will add a further twist to a murder mystery that has captured headlines in Britain and the US and continues to intrigue Italians.

It is not clear why it has taken nearly a year for the new witness to come forward with his testimony.

THE DAILY TELEGRAPH

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 4:23 pm   Post subject: ADMINISTRATOR NOTE   

Administrator Note:

NEW BOARD FEATURE

I have started a new board feature in the 'Projects for Meredith' forum. This feature is for all members who speak a second (or more) language. If you are one of that number, please view the TRANSLATORS' THREAD

Thank You

Michael

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 4:39 pm   Post subject: Knowledge and power   

Fast Pete has a new post up about your favorite blogger's book deal.
Release date: as soon as possible after the trial ends.
Other details are provided. Maybe I missed it, but I saw no mention of the proceeds going to the Kerchers.

OT note to Marm (since I know you read this board religiously): I have just now taken the time to carefully read your recent posts on Frank's blog. You have mistaken someone else for me, but that doesn't matter.

However, what does matter is your erroneous statement that all we do here is criticize Candace and Frank. We do a lot more than that, but I have no problems admitting that we spend a fair amount of time on that as well. Someone has to do it, you know. No source of information is or should be above scrutiny; no source of information is unbiased. Be especially wary of those that claim to be.

Have you ever questioned anything that Frank has written? Have you ever wondered where and how he gets his information? Do you not find it the least bit surprising that the linchpin of the local ad hoc AK defense league appeared one day on Frank's blog? Do you not wonder why on earth Frank, the source of local scoops and access to local people, is suddenly reciting from a bestseller about the Monster of Florence written by Preston and Spezi, who have been using the tragic murder of Meredith Kercher as a springboard from which to promote their book and settle their grievance against Prosecutor Mignini for months now?

Does it not seem the least bit wrong or unfair that these two people, who have access to the press and publicity that the rest of us can only dream of -- in English and in Italian -- would gain financialliy by instrumentalizing the death of Meredith Kercher? Don't you think it would be nice if Doug Preston handed over just a tiny percentage of his movie rights deal with Tom Cruise to the Kercher family, to help defray their legal costs and maybe help Arline Kercher with her medical bills? Of course, the Kerchers might not want this money because of the stench of it.
The above is my opinion of course. Only the parties involved in these for-profit activities know what their true motivations are. The bottom line is that every source of information that purports to be authoritative must be examined with care. Vested interests have a way of twisting the truth to suit their aims. Have you ever read the late French philosopher Michel Foucault on knowledge and power? How about that old Cyndi Lauper song, then? Money Changes Everything.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 4:46 pm   Post subject:    

As for the bleach receipts:

According to this La Repibblica report of last year(!) that specifically gives what receipts have been found at Sollecito's place:

- None of them was dated November 2.
- On Nov 16 they seized three receipts with dates of Nov 4, May 19 and March 21.
- No receipts are mentioned in the Nov 6 seizure record.

"Giallo Perugia, in casa di Sollecito nessuno scontrino del 2 novembre

PERUGIA - Mentre la caccia al quarto uomo continua nel massimo riserbo, il giallo di Perugia perde uno dei tasselli che nelle ultime ore erano parsi risolutivi: nei verbali sulla perquisizione in casa di Raffaele Sollecito non ci sono scontrini datati 2 novembre, il giorno dopo l'assassinio della studentessa inglese Meredith Kercher. Di quei due scontrini si era parlato come di uno degli indizi più pesanti a carico del giovane che è in carcere insieme ad Amanda Knox e a Patrick Lumumba Diya, di una prova dell'acquisto in un supermercato di Perugia di due flaconi di candeggina utilizzata per far sparire ogni traccia dell'omicidio.

Il giallo degli scontrini. Nell'appartamento di Sollecito, stando al verbale di sequestro del 16 novembre, sono stati trovati tre scontrini, ma nessuno del 2 novembre: uno ha la data del 4 novembre, gli altri due risalgono al 19 maggio e al 21 marzo. E non ci sono scontrini del 2 novembre neanche nel precedente verbale di perquisizione a casa di Sollecito, quello del 6 novembre in cui, tra le altre cose, gli investigatori hanno sequestrato il coltello da cucina su cui poi è stato trovato il dna di Meredith e di Amanda Knox, la sua coinquilina americana."

(La Repubblica, Nov. 18, 2007)
http://www.repubblica.it/2007/11/sezion ... edith.html
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:14 pm   Post subject: CENSORSHIP EXPLAINED   

Well now Skep. Doesn't this very much explain Candace's rabid censorship on her blogs! Of course posters get reprimanded if they post a different point of view (as she is constantly reprimanding Frog-y-rana for example), as they are straying away from the theme of her pending novel, and of course her publishers will be viewing her blog. I recall, recently having a rather pushy Candace Dempsey in my e-mail box and asking her if she is, or has been, in negotiation for any book deals. She did not provide an answer. Candace has been at great pains to say, when given the opportunity, that she makes no money from her blog (before the new pop-up adds appeared) or from her trips to Italy and we believe her! It was always the book that was intended to make the wonga....Kching!!! I wonder, what percentage of the revenue will be going to the Knox family? Especially for use of their diary, which recently Candace went out of her way to mention was copy righted.

The truth will always come out. Just read my sig if you don't believe me :)

Well, in the coloquial language of the USA:

Candace Dempsey...you are SOOOOO BUSTED!!!




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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:19 pm   Post subject: November 4th bleach receipt   

Bolint wrote:
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for the bleach receipts:

According to this La Repibblica report of last year(!) that specifically gives what receipts have been found at Sollecito's place:

- None of them was dated November 2.
- On Nov 16 they seized three receipts with dates of Nov 4, May 19 and March 21.
- No receipts are mentioned in the Nov 6 seizure record.



If this is true, then on Sunday, November 4th just 2 days after Meredith's murder was discovered, Knox and Sollecito must have gotten a "cleaning bug"! What an opportune time to clean up Sollecito's flat and objects therein. :shock:
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:37 pm   Post subject:    

The Nov 4 is interesting but I don't know what was bought with that receipt.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:43 pm   Post subject: Washing Machines and Book Deals   

Candace Dempsey wrote:
Posted by Candace Dempsey at 11/17/08 8:55 a.m. #217753

When I say you might have a moment of doubt, I am talking about the many news stories about Amanda that turned out not to be true. I'm not talking about Internet gossip (see above, washing machine). Which, thank God, I slept through. I can only pray that we can move on to things that are actually part of the case.


THE COOK BEST SELLING AUTHOR'S BLOG

Reported in Le Monde, so not 'Internet gossip', I take it the 'washing machine' won't be featuring in your new book then Candace? LOL

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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:07 pm   Post subject: Re: November 4th bleach receipt   

Tara wrote:

If this is true, then on Sunday, November 4th just 2 days after Meredith's murder was discovered, Knox and Sollecito must have gotten a "cleaning bug"! What an opportune time to clean up Sollecito's flat and objects therein. :shock:


Indeed Tara.
How queer...

During this time frame after the lifeless body of Meredith was discovered in the house she shared with Knox, she seems to have gone through a remarkable transformation from being a habitual slut into the great granddaughter of Mr Clean!

Here is a young woman of questional personal hygiene habits, regularly berated and requested by her housemates to flush the toilet (among other things) after leaving used tampons and any other thing she may have left there after performing a bodily function - now going wild with bleach cleaning everything, washing any clothes she can get her hands on and showering at almost every opportunity.

Before the most hackneyed of all the Knox defence camp stock phrases is shouted out yet again - "This doesn't prove she is a murderer"
One has to say the contrast between the two behaviours and the context and the timing of the said behaviour is very apparent.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:20 pm   Post subject: More gossip   

Michael wrote:

Quote:
Reported in Le Monde, so not 'Internet gossip', I take it the 'washing machine' won't be featuring in your new book then Candace? LOL


What about the photo Kermit has provided of the washing machine? Is that not an ILE photo? In any case, the washing machine is not Internet gossip and was indeed reported in Le Monde and elsewhere. Whether or not it is material to this case remains to be seen, but it is not just Internet gossip.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:29 pm   Post subject:    

"What about the photo Kermit has provided of the washing machine? Is that not an ILE photo? "

Where is that photo?
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:35 pm   Post subject: Re: More gossip   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Michael wrote:

Quote:
Reported in Le Monde, so not 'Internet gossip', I take it the 'washing machine' won't be featuring in your new book then Candace? LOL


What about the photo Kermit has provided of the washing machine? Is that not an ILE photo? In any case, the washing machine is not Internet gossip and was indeed reported in Le Monde and elsewhere. Whether or not it is material to this case remains to be seen, but it is not just Internet gossip.


Indeed it is Skep :)


_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:50 pm   Post subject:    

Thanks!
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Offline Jools


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

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Location: Spain

PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:06 pm   Post subject: And the Nobel for literature goes to...   

Hi All,

So The Ugly Cook has a book in the oven eh?
I think a lot of us have suspected it for a long time.

How is Sfarzo (the film professor) involved in this?
Is he the co-writer or the possible film director :lol:

I can just imagine them at those Perugia meetings, planing and hoping that they will find another Tom Cruise a la Preston/Spezi and hope they can sell their "copyright" master piece. :lol:

And we mustn't forget Oceania the film producer could double up as costume provider. :lol:

Charlie the "W" must be busy collecting all data related to the case.
:lol:

She/they are not the only ones writing books on Meredith Kercher case, maybe the latest or the last if she/they wait till trial is over, as we know, it can take a few years for it to be over.

Gabriella Carlizzi meanwhile has a book already baked due to come out in December.

http://www.mondeditori.net/
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Offline Corrina


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:20 pm

Posts: 625

PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:14 pm   Post subject: She must make a KILLING   

Surprising? No. Revolting and opportunistic? Absolutely.
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:22 pm   Post subject:    

It seems Candace Dempsey is having a very bad day at the "office". Helpful Heloise asked her whether she's writing a book about the case and she got deleted. It seems like a harmless question to me. What's Candace afraid of? The truth?
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Offline Jumpy


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:25 pm   Post subject:    

Scene 1
A Year Ago-ish

Candace (to herself): Think, think Candace! This cooking thing is not going so well. You are an accompl, okay you are a writer and you've been to Italy. Think! Hmmm. Nancy Grace. I hate that bitch. What is this news story in Perugia?"

Scene 2
Dream sequence - Red Carpet - A few years later

Candace floats down a red carpet wearing an appalling ensemble from Macy's.
Candace (to paparazzi): "Thank you, thank you. So happy to be here! If it were not for this random happening in Perugia...What is that you say? Oh it was this murder-thingy involving this girl who died, can't remember her name...But if it were not for my writing skills and the Hearst Corporation I'd still be faking my Italian and watching Food Network. The Italian-American-Seattle Dream really can come true!"

Fin
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:28 pm   Post subject: The Gini's out of the bottle!   

The Machine wrote:
It seems Candace Dempsey is having a very bad day at the "office". Helpful Heloise asked her whether she's writing a book about the case and she got deleted. It seems like a harmless question to me. What's Candace afraid of? The truth?


Deleted? Oh dear, far too late for that...the Gini is well and truly out of THAT bottle!

Humpty Dumpy sat on the wall
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall
All the King's horses
and all the King's men
couldn't put Humpty together again!!!

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Last edited by Michael on Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:39 pm   Post subject: BLOG CLOSED!!!   

Candace Dempsey wrote:
Posted by Candace Dempsey at 11/17/08 11:31 a.m. #217846

Hi everyone,
Representatives from the House of Misinformation swarmed my blog this morning. For this reason I am closing it down to comments until the chief offender can be banned.

This was not done by anyone whose name remains on my board, I hasten to add, but by the usual unwanted guest.

I apologize for the inconvenience.

Anyone who wants to ask me questions about my career is free to email me. I'm only too happy to correct the ridiculous comments made about me elsewhere by people who evidently have nothing better to do.

I don't respond to anonymous posters who want to pry into any part of my life.

Candace

Comments are now closed for this blog entry.


THE PRIZE WINNING AUTHOR COOK'S BLOG

b-((( b-(( d-)) dm-) pp-( c-((

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Last edited by Michael on Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:48 pm   Post subject:    

Oh dear, Helpful Heloise wasn't that helpful. The Cook is in serious need of HRT treatment now.
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:58 pm   Post subject:    

Meanwhile....

Kokomani is back as a witness!

He is part of the !00 witness.

http://www.corrieredellumbria.it/news.asp?id=42
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:03 pm   Post subject:    

Candace Dempsey closed down the comments section of her blog because she knew she was going to be asked whether it's true that she's writing a book about the case. She deleted a number of questions about it at first, but she realised that wouldn't stop the questions, so she closed down the comments section.
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:26 pm   Post subject:    

How disgusting this thoroughly odious woman is.
We look upon images of this brutal murder and see tragedy, death, horror and a young life cruelly taken away for nothing.
She looks upon the same images, at the blood smears and pools of still congealing blood and sees money.

The very same woman who denies she is anything to do with the free Amanda campaign but nevertheless works tirelessly for them.
Same as the brave and beautiful Frank (she paid this compliment to him after he made a post about a window [weird])

He also is now firmly in the picture too, with the closely and carefully coordinated campaign since Bremner came on the scene (probably at the request of Dempsey) very noticable - hence the latest post on his site which is nothing but an attempt at character assassination and renewed effort to smear the prosecutor in this case, Mignini.

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R.I.P
Meredith Kercher.
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Offline Jumpy


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:33 pm   Post subject:    

No wonder in her support of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito the issue of lies and false accusations do nothing to make her pause. It is exactly to this type of mindset which she belongs. I share the thought that these people are foul and despicable.
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:34 pm   Post subject:    

Since the Ugly Cook's blog is closed the comments section...

Looks like Yummi is gone over to Franks, lets see how long he will last there. Frank does not appreciate posters that are able to answer relevant and informative questions. As he says... he is got the case.
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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:52 pm   Post subject: Yummi   

Jools wrote:
Since the Ugly Cook's blog is closed the comments section...

Looks like Yummi is gone over to Franks, lets see how long he will last there. Frank does not appreciate posters that are able to answer relevant and informative questions. As he says... he is got the case.


Hi Jools,

I saw this too. I enjoy reading Yummi's posts - maybe s(he) will come and check us out - we're always open...never closed!

I did notice yesterday though, that Chris Mellas doesn't seem to enjoy Yummi's posts as much as the rest of us... ;)
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:07 pm   Post subject: Frank Doesn't Like Me Anymore :)   

It seems Frank doesn't like me anymore :( :

Frank wrote:
Michael, everyone wrote me you were an asshole and instead I kept defending you for months saying that after all you were just entertaining.
But now I have to agree. You are very childish and desperate for publicity.
I told you not to post links here and you keep on doing that, just like those kids that do on purpose the opposite they are told to do.
You were lucky to meet people like Charlie Wilkies, Oceania, Candace and many others, people very informed, people of great intelligence and correctness and you didn't learn anything from them.
You like so much this hunt to the witch, you like so much staying on the side of old hyperreligious people who condemn young people because they have sex and freedom and you even want to suggest websites? Your name on a website is a label of low quality.
Because sorry now I gotta tell you this, you don't have a rational way to reason, you don't have intuition, you don't know what a scientific method is, you just have a lot of presumption.
You can read even a thousand articles and still miss the sense of everything because everything you like is to judge, to condemn. So if you have fun like this go ahead...

November 17, 2008 12:46 PM



My reply:

Michael wrote:
Frank Wrote:

Frank: "Michael, everyone wrote me you were an asshole and instead I kept defending you for months saying that after all you were just entertaining.
But now I have to agree. You are very childish and desperate for publicity."

Michael: Oh no Frank, not me. I have no book to write and promote :) You do seem rather angry though. You want to watch that, it isn't good for your blood pressure...I'd put my feet up for a while and have a glass of nice Italian wine.

Frank: "You were lucky to meet people like Charlie Wilkies, Oceania, Candace and many others, people very informed, people of great intelligence and correctness and you didn't learn anything from them."

Michael: I see that even when you're angry, you retain your sense of humour :)

Frank: "You like so much this hunt to the witch, you like so much staying on the side of old hyperreligious people who condemn young people because they have sex and freedom and you even want to suggest websites?"

Michael: Hypereligious? Me? Or, are you talking about Mignini? The man who you originally claimed to respect, but suddenly turned on round about...oh...when the likes of Candace Dempsey and Anne Bremner co-incidentally began having articles appear on your blog and you shat all over Meredith?

Frank: "Because sorry now I gotta tell you this, you don't have a rational way to reason, you don't have intuition, you don't know what a scientific method is, you just have a lot of presumption."

Michael: Oh Frank, you'll see exactly what we have. Just not yet.

Frank: "Your name on a website is a label of low quality."

Michael: My name's on a website Frank, really? Have you got the link to that? :)

Michael

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:21 pm   Post subject: Too good for Candace and Frank   

Tara wrote:
I did notice yesterday though, that Chris Mellas doesn't seem to enjoy Yummi's posts as much as the rest of us...


All the more reason why he'd be welcome here ;)

And let's face it, a poster of his/her calibre is far too good for Dempsey or Frank.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:21 pm   Post subject: Illuminating   

Frank wrote (to Michael):

You like so much this hunt to the witch, you like so much staying on the side of old hyperreligious people who condemn young people because they have sex and freedom and you even want to suggest websites? Your name on a website is a label of low quality."

Wow. Here, in a nutshell, is Frank's take on the murder of Meredith Kercher. Finally out in the open: If you are waiting to hear the case that the prosecutor is attempting to make and think that the judges so far have ruled correctly, then you are on the wrong side (of 40 or 50). You are on the side of hyper-religiosity, condemning young people because they have sex and freedom.

The alternative is to be seen as being on the side of sex and freedom, hoping that even though you are moving closer to the wrong side of 40 (or 50), young people will still find you attractive, sexy and free.

I have to admit that this is whole lot cheaper than a face-lift and a whole lot easier than getting your hands on that sure-fire babe magnet called tons o'money and a hot car!

It is nice to see that the Madonna/Whore dichotomy is alive and well somewhere.

Let's call this the Fear of Aging theory.

Wow, wow, wow.

If I move over to the side of loving young people because they have sex and are free, will this make me more popular and get me more dates?

And how ironic that both AK and RS have turned to God in the past year. Aren't they just trying to get on that hyper-religious Mignini's good side?
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:27 pm   Post subject:    

Hi Michael,

It seems though Candace Dempsey and Frank are having very bad days indeed. Candace closed down the comments section of her blog and Frank is having some hissy fit, swearing at posters and deleting the comments on his blog like there is no tomorrow. It wouldn't have any thing to do with the story on the TJMK site about Candace writing a book about the case now, would it? Why are they so touchy about it? It seems like they didn't want the story getting out.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:37 pm   Post subject: Frank's Totally Lost It!   

Frank's totally lost it!:

Frank wrote:
Omg, such a touching story, you, whothefuckyyouare, you make me cry now with your lost message...


The Machine wrote:
It seems though Candace Dempsey and Frank are having very bad days indeed. Candace closed down the comments section of her blog and Frank is having some hissy fit, swearing at posters and deleting the comments on his blog like there is no tomorrow. It wouldn't have any thing to do with the story on the TJMK site about Candace writing a book about the case now, would it? Why are they so touchy about it? It seems like they didn't want the story getting out.


Indeed!!!

Skep wrote:
Wow. Here, in a nutshell, is Frank's take on the murder of Meredith Kercher. Finally out in the open: If you are waiting to hear the case that the prosecutor is attempting to make and think that the judges so far have ruled correctly, then you are on the wrong side (of 40 or 50). You are on the side of hyper-religiosity, condemning young people because they have sex and freedom.


Exactly Skep! There we have it...all laid out...the truth will out. No more cliffhanger from Frank.

Overall, it's been a rather productive day for the truth :)

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Jools


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

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Location: Spain

PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:09 pm   Post subject: The Greedy Bunch   

I think this from Frank to Michael is priceless :lol: :lol:

"You were lucky to meet people like Charlie Wilkies, Oceania, Candace and many others, people very informed, people of great intelligence and correctness and you didn't learn anything from them."
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Offline Tara


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Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

Posts: 1010

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:11 pm   Post subject: Re: Frank's Totally Lost It!   

Michael wrote:
Frank's totally lost it!:

Frank wrote:
Omg, such a touching story, you, whothefuckyyouare, you make me cry now with your lost message...


The Machine wrote:
It seems though Candace Dempsey and Frank are having very bad days indeed. Candace closed down the comments section of her blog and Frank is having some hissy fit, swearing at posters and deleting the comments on his blog like there is no tomorrow. It wouldn't have any thing to do with the story on the TJMK site about Candace writing a book about the case now, would it? Why are they so touchy about it? It seems like they didn't want the story getting out.


Indeed!!!

Skep wrote:
Wow. Here, in a nutshell, is Frank's take on the murder of Meredith Kercher. Finally out in the open: If you are waiting to hear the case that the prosecutor is attempting to make and think that the judges so far have ruled correctly, then you are on the wrong side (of 40 or 50). You are on the side of hyper-religiosity, condemning young people because they have sex and freedom.


Exactly Skep! There we have it...all laid out...the truth will out. No more cliffhanger from Frank.

Overall, it's been a rather productive day for the truth :)


Oops, that was me - I forgot to sign my post. I never post at Frank's anymore, but I do read Yummi's posts with interest.

I guess RUDE FRANK has given me a new name. Not a good day for the poor Knox camp.

Signed,

"whothefuckyouare" :lol:
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:14 pm   Post subject:    

HAhahaha Tara, the Knox camp are going to have a field day with your new name. LOL
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:18 pm   Post subject: Chuckles the wilky   

Jools wrote:

Quote:
I think this from Frank to Michael is priceless
"You were lucky to meet people like Charlie Wilkies, Oceania, Candace and many others, people very informed, people of great intelligence and correctness and you didn't learn anything from them."


Did he actually call him "Wilkies"? :lol:

Chuck Wilkies. I like it.
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:53 pm

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:19 pm   Post subject: A marriage made in hell   

What a strange marriage between the cook and Frank.
He now shows his hand as if to say it is a generational issue and driven by an old prudish young person hating Mignini, who is blindly prosecuting the accused perpetrators of this crime for this reason.
Then you have the cook who has stated on many occasions that Mignini is some sort of sex obsessed dirty old man and this is the reason he is prosecuting the accused.

Forgive me if I am wrong but I never once heard any criticism of the forensic scientists and their methods when it came to handling the suspected samples of Rudy Guede but yet they do nothing but attack the very same forensic scientists and their methods when it comes to the samples of Knox and Sollecito.
A marriage made in hell? they are so crooked they couldn't lay straight in bed...

_________________
R.I.P
Meredith Kercher.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:25 pm   Post subject:    

"The Nov 4 is interesting but I don't know what was bought with that receipt. "

This Nov 4 receipt is not one of cleaning products.


Nell'abitazione di corso Garibaldi non sono stati trovati gli scontrini che attestano quell'acquisto. Nei 21 reperti catalogati dagli investigatori vi sono tre scontrini e nessuno porta la data del 2 novembre. Il primo (il reperto 11) e' del 4 novembre, "recante - e' scritto nel verbale di sequestro - ora 17:27, importo di euro 13, numero progressivo 26, relativo all'esercizio commerciale denominato 'Pizza station'...il reperto era sul mobile porta bottiglie...". Gli altri due (reperti 15 e 16) sono invece piu' vecchi e sono stati trovati entrambi "all'interno di una busta contenuta nell'ultimo cassetto a partire dall'alto del mobile della cucina". Il primo e' uno "scontrino n.115 relativo all'attivita' commerciale 'Alimentari-tabacchi-lotto' datato 19-05-2007 ore 17.28 per l'importo di euro 7,27"; il secondo invece e' relativo a negozio di alimentari 'Quintavalle', numero "progressivo 264 di data 21-03-2007 ore 17.48 per l'importo di euro 8,70". "E' un'ulteriore riprova dell'assenza di responsabilita' del giovane - ha detto uno dei suoi avvocati, Luca Maori - Assenza di responsabilita' che verra' ribadita nei prossimi giorni con il deposito delle perizie tecniche".

(RAI News Nov 17 2007)
http://www.incantesimo.rai.it/news/arti ... 32,00.html
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Offline Jools


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

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Location: Spain

PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:29 pm   Post subject: The Animal Defense Legal Fund   

The ADLF has updated details about donating airmiles.

http://amandadefensefund.org/Donations.html

Why are they using the same acronysm as the Animal Defense Legal Fund.?
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:46 pm   Post subject: COOK'S BLOG OPEN   

The Cook's blog has reopened. According to her, her site was closed because it was hit by 'spam'....or 'trolls'...but she can't seem to make up her mind quite which (which of course it was neither):

Candace Dempsey wrote:
Posted by Candace Dempsey at 11/17/08 2:38 p.m. #217955

I am sorry that I had to lock the blog this morning after being spammed. The PI staff has addressed the problem. If we are hit with another troll attack, please click on "Report violation" and then a PI monitor will see it and so will I.

Note to everyone: The whole controversy this morning was over my writing a book about the case. This is what Americans call "an open secret." My sources are aware of it and I've even told frenemies. But I was waiting until the right moment to announce it formally. So now I've done that.

I will release more details at the appropriate time. Evidently some people feel that they should handpick who writes about the case, but I live in a democracy.

Thanks so much for your many months of support, wonderful ideas and company. I love hanging out with all of you and will continue doing so. It's the fun part of my day, except for moments like this morning.

Candace

P.S. I also want to thank my editor at the PI for his constant support and quick response to trouble on the site.


COOK'S BLOG

Open secret? But you always said you weren't going to make any money out of this case Candace! By the way, how much of a cut will your 'sources' get???

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:04 pm   Post subject:    

She lives in a democracy?
She certainly doesn't apply the same principals to her corrupt blog.
Hypocrite.

_________________
R.I.P
Meredith Kercher.
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:16 am   Post subject: Re: Frank's Totally Lost It!   

Tara wrote:
Michael wrote:
Frank's totally lost it!:

Frank wrote:
Omg, such a touching story, you, whothefuckyyouare, you make me cry now with your lost message...


The Machine wrote:
It seems though Candace Dempsey and Frank are having very bad days indeed. Candace closed down the comments section of her blog and Frank is having some hissy fit, swearing at posters and deleting the comments on his blog like there is no tomorrow. It wouldn't have any thing to do with the story on the TJMK site about Candace writing a book about the case now, would it? Why are they so touchy about it? It seems like they didn't want the story getting out.


Indeed!!!

Skep wrote:
Wow. Here, in a nutshell, is Frank's take on the murder of Meredith Kercher. Finally out in the open: If you are waiting to hear the case that the prosecutor is attempting to make and think that the judges so far have ruled correctly, then you are on the wrong side (of 40 or 50). You are on the side of hyper-religiosity, condemning young people because they have sex and freedom.


Exactly Skep! There we have it...all laid out...the truth will out. No more cliffhanger from Frank.

Overall, it's been a rather productive day for the truth :)


Oops, that was me - I forgot to sign my post. I never post at Frank's anymore, but I do read Yummi's posts with interest.

I guess RUDE FRANK has given me a new name. Not a good day for the poor Knox camp.

Signed,

"whothefuckyouare" :lol:


Hi Tara,
What else could we expect from such a rude and arrogant individual? I 've never thought much of Frank and his blog, so I'm not a bit surprised about his nasty reaction.
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Offline Fly by Night


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:09 pm

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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:28 am   Post subject: Re: COOK'S BLOG OPEN   

Michael wrote:
Open secret? But you always said you weren't going to make any money out of this case Candace! By the way, how much of a cut will your 'sources' get???


That book contract had better be for a work of FICTION! :lol:
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:33 am   Post subject: The story of Meredith's life   

Michael posted:

Quote:
Candace Dempsey wrote:
Posted by Candace Dempsey at 11/17/08 2:38 p.m. #217955

I am sorry that I had to lock the blog this morning after being spammed. The PI staff has addressed the problem. If we are hit with another troll attack, please click on "Report violation" and then a PI monitor will see it and so will I.

Note to everyone: The whole controversy this morning was over my writing a book about the case. This is what Americans call "an open secret." My sources are aware of it and I've even told frenemies. But I was waiting until the right moment to announce it formally. So now I've done that.


This sounds like something out of Star Wars. In case of troll attack, click on report violation. Repeat! In case of troll attack, click on report violation.

Anyway, how nice that the right moment has come to formally announce the upcoming book. That should take care of some of the tension of late.

It is perfectly normal to go incognito for as long as possible when one is investigating a story, so I can understand why Candace did not want to make a public announcement until now. My only qualm is that for someone traveling incognito, she sure seems to make a lot of noise and be in the thick of it. Like I said, she has made herself a bit player in this sad and noisy drama, so the neutral investigative angle may be hard to sell. She is one of the forces shaping the story she's writing, so it seems a little odd. But hey, it's a free world. Candace's views are well known, so her book will appeal to people who like her shoot-from-the-hip stance, overwrought prose about flower petals being plucked too soon, and repeated comments about how utterly quaint certain English names are. The world is a big place with lots of readers and a variety of tastes. And nobody has to buy or read anything unless they want to.

There are multiple stories to be be written about the story behind the murder of Meredith Kercher and the subsequent investigation into that tragic event. The only story that will really matter, though, is the one that offers some consolation to the Kercher family. I hope that someday, someone will write the story of Meredith's all too brief life. This would be a story where Meredith is an indelible presence, and it would be a story about Meredith: who she was, what she loved, what she aspired to, what her dreams and fears were. For me, it would be more compelling than the story of her death and of the incredible and callous way in which she was rubbed out as a central character in the narrative, although that too is a story worth telling and one that I think will be told--but only after the dust and smoke have settled.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:59 am   Post subject: What do I know?   

Nicki wrote:

Quote:
Hi Tara,
What else could we expect from such a rude and arrogant individual? I 've never thought much of Frank and his blog, so I'm not a bit surprised about his nasty reaction.


Hi Nicki,

Do you have a sense of how Frank is perceived inside Italy? Does he have a following? Most of his readers now seem to be English speakers. I don't see many Italians making comments on his blog.

And what do people make of these weird insinuations coming from Spezi, Preston, Dempsey and now Frank about Mignini and his methods? It all seems so bizarre to me, but perhaps others see Popham's story as compelling.
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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:45 am   Post subject: Frank wants everyone to be quiet!   

We do know that Frank is a VERY hard worker on his blog. He just deleted the last 45 posts! What the heck's wrong with him? I thought FoP's post was quite on topic!

Also, I'm "American", and I have never used the term "OPEN SECRET". Can my fellow Americans please enlighten me?

Thanks,

WTFYA
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:11 am   Post subject: Polichinelle   

In French it's called un or le secret de Polichinelle: means it is not a real secret because everyone knows about it right away.
It's funny, because Polichinelle comes from the Italian Pulcinella, a stock character in Italian farces. It is a hunchbacked character in the commedia dell'arte and marionnette theater.
Then there's the expression "avoir un polichinelle dans le tiroir, " which is old slang for being pregnant, you know, kind of like having a bun in the oven.
So I guess the idea is that everyone knew about this book or should have, so nothing was being dissimulated.
Which means that Fast Pete's unearthing of information that is in the public domain is really no big deal.
Tout va bien, Madame La Marquise!
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:20 am   Post subject: Re: Frank wants everyone to be quiet!   

Tara wrote:
We do know that Frank is a VERY hard worker on his blog. He just deleted the last 45 posts! What the heck's wrong with him? I thought FoP's post was quite on topic!

Also, I'm "American", and I have never used the term "OPEN SECRET". Can my fellow Americans please enlighten me?

Thanks,

WTFYA


Hi Tara,

Quite. Although somebody there is making things look worse then they are by posting endless $ sign posts.

Hijacking someone's blog isn't the way. It's truth that will win the day in the end. So, I wish they'd stop.

I think looking back on today Frank will be rather embarassed...he lost his poise and therefore lost face. The problem for some, is that it's no longer about the case...the murder of Meredith, or even about Amanda Knox, but rather ego. Pride before a fall so they say. With money added to that mix...This case is a tragedy in more ways then one and as if Meredith's brutal and mindless slaughter wasn't tragedy enough!


EDIT: Frank's now disabled the comments on his blog

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES


Last edited by Michael on Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:26 am   Post subject: Yummi   

Hi Michael,

Oh, ok - I didn't see any of the posts, but I figured it was probably something like that! It really makes the blog look like a trolls nest when things like that happen. Too bad his "bleach" isn't the top of the line brand that the IW uses! :)

Here is another very interesting post by Yummi. It gives some insight on how potential witnesses feel about coming forward:

Quote:
Posted by Yummi at 11/17/08 6:13 p.m.

The "Giornale dell'Umbria" means the work of three reporters, Ms.Bene, Mr. Fiorucci and Mr. Fois. Who, as far as i can know, are normal journalists.

The basic idea of the inquiry could be "we are sure the people from Perugia know some more". The alleged witnesses are so far alleged, but they did not go to the newspaper. It was the threee reporters who discovered them by questioning around all possible acquaintences in that city area, following the underground rumors, finally fhey found (alleged) one by one, some poeple.

Nobody in Italy wants to be a witness. If I saw one of the defendants that morning - i say this although I can understand those who may object morally - If I were a witness, probably I wouldn't go to the police, and I would't talk ynless I were threatned. Probably. The police knows that, people don't like to talk in cases like this.

The article expresses contempt for this.
We have no idea if these witnesses are real, reliable, or wrong about the day or about the right/wrong person.
The shop wintess is very intereting because the buying of a good can be detected, checking a match in the seller's record. This man was reported to have talked to his friends and family about his knoledge, but always avoided the investigators.
In regards of the witnessing among common people, in fact it is real that as an istinct, people don't want to know (i realize In many cases I don't want neither), they don't want to be addressed as people who "talk". The one who send the students to prison, or just who "talks" about people close to him. A person who is a witness pays a price, can even be a very heavvy price, he/she always becomes, in some way less trusted. When I try to explain somethin about Italy to foreigners, i foun myself often having to say: think to a society basedi in clan (or mind-set on an idea of close trust), rather than individualistic and based on personal moral. I believe this - don't want to talk - as absolutely true, can well be for many people in Perugia.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:33 am   Post subject: Re: Troll'[s Nest   

Tara wrote:
Oh, ok - I didn't see any of the posts, but I figured it was probably something like that! It really makes the blog look like a trolls nest when things like that happen. Too bad his "bleach" isn't the top of the line brand that the IW uses!

Here is another very interesting post by Yummi. It gives some insight on how potential witnesses feel about coming forward:


It does and a troll's nest makes nobody look good...and really this case (Meredith) deserves better.

Yes, I was reading that on the other blog just before I posted. I do like Yumi's posts. It's just a pity this one wasn't written in quite as good English as Yumi normally writes...I found it a little tricky to understand. It's also quite late my end, so my brain isn't quite in gear.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
PMF ON TWITTER
PMF FORUM RULES
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Offline Anastasia


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:43 am   Post subject:    

Jumpy wrote:
Scene 1
A Year Ago-ish

Candace (to herself): Think, think Candace! This cooking thing is not going so well. You are an accompl, okay you are a writer and you've been to Italy. Think! Hmmm. Nancy Grace. I hate that bitch. What is this news story in Perugia?"

Scene 2
Dream sequence - Red Carpet - A few years later

Candace floats down a red carpet wearing an appalling ensemble from Macy's.
Candace (to paparazzi): "Thank you, thank you. So happy to be here! If it were not for this random happening in Perugia...What is that you say? Oh it was this murder-thingy involving this girl who died, can't remember her name...But if it were not for my writing skills and the Hearst Corporation I'd still be faking my Italian and watching Food Network. The Italian-American-Seattle Dream really can come true!"

Fin

You are too funny! I am still giggling :lol: :lol: :lol: A little comic relief can do wonders, thanks Jumpy!

Anastasia
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Offline Jumpy


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:06 am   Post subject:    

I am sure the Macy's red carpet outfit would be through "trade" as well! Gotta support the supporters!
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:42 am   Post subject: Perugia Shock   

What doesn't Frank want people to read?

He's disabled comments before, especially when those comments could be viewed as coming from "attack trolls" - Continuous bad language, repetitive opinion and the like.

He normally cleans up and deletes the comments he doesn't like and leaves the others to stand as they are, available for reading in the comments section.

This time he's made it impossible to link through and view the comments section, either from the topic header or the comments tab. All comments have been removed from view.

ISTM that Frank may have a post or posts he can't reasonably delete using his usual criteria.
What is it he doesn't want people to read? Is it Yummi or something else related to book deals and the like?
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Offline Jumpy


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:44 am   Post subject:    

Hi Brian,
I'm a little confused what you mean. What does Frank have against Yummi? He has only posted I think once on his blog.
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Offline Anastasia


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Location: Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:00 am   Post subject: Re: Polichinelle   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
In French it's called un or le secret de Polichinelle: means it is not a real secret because everyone knows about it right away.
It's funny, because Polichinelle comes from the Italian Pulcinella, a stock character in Italian farces. It is a hunchbacked character in the commedia dell'arte and marionnette theater.
Then there's the expression "avoir un polichinelle dans le tiroir, " which is old slang for being pregnant, you know, kind of like having a bun in the oven.
So I guess the idea is that everyone knew about this book or should have, so nothing was being dissimulated.
Which means that Fast Pete's unearthing of information that is in the public domain is really no big deal.
Tout va bien, Madame La Marquise!



I am wondering now if the affiliations with knox/mellas, frank etc,. will be revealed as an 'open secret' soon also?
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:14 am   Post subject:    

Jumpy wrote:
Hi Brian,
I'm a little confused what you mean. What does Frank have against Yummi? He has only posted I think once on his blog.


Quite so.

What makes Yummi different is that he/she is Italian with no little knowledge of their legal system. One post and Frank makes the comments invisible.

OR

Is it comment on the relationship between himself, IW and a book deal that Frank isn't so keen on?
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Offline Fly by Night


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:42 am   Post subject: Re: The story of Meredith's life   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Candace's views are well known, so her book will appeal to people who like her shoot-from-the-hip stance, overwrought prose about flower petals being plucked too soon, and repeated comments about how utterly quaint certain English names are.


I'm sure it will be a loverly read, just like I'm sure that some of the nervousness we saw today is directly related to the lawsuit filed by the Kercher family. These writers needed a time-out, and a quick call to Bremner, to figure out what to say for the record, coincidentally much like Knox and Sollecito attempted to do.

These writers need to be sure that nothing can connect them directly to the Knox family because, God forbid, if Amanda should lose her case...yep, we've seen many distancing attempts already. Otherwise no one can reap any profit what-so-ever from book sales. Rest assured there will be eyes watching how any proceeds are handled.
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 7:12 am   Post subject:    

On Mignini's trial and book deals:

Have you ever lit a firework, stood back, only to watch the glow on the blue touch paper fizzle out as it's damped by rain before it has a chance to spring into life with it's dazzling display?

Well, firework Mignini was put out until March when it was rained on by book deals.

:lol: :lol:
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:27 am   Post subject:    

Some other observations:

Frank hails from Florence, Spezi's home town. He returned to Perugia (his university town) to cover this case.

Frank has a background of an interest in crime, Spezi's speciality was as a crime reporter.

Mignini criticized a "website" and said that the campaign against him was being co-ordinated from Italy.

Both IW and Chris Mellas said he "would regret raising that issue" at the pre-trial.

Spezi's website is pretty static. One could hardly say it's contents amounted to a campaign.

Frank has just out of the blue praised Oceania. I'm not aware she has ever contributed much to his blog. Why the high opinion for someone who has hardly ever posted. He must have followed her posting elsewhere to form any opinion.

EDIT: She has been silent since July 8th. I'm gonna track down when she made her visit to Perugia.

Didn't Chris Mellas also visit Perugia around the time that the nature of Frank's blog changed?

IW has visited Perugia and met Frank on more than one occasion.

Charlie Wilkes has promoted Spezi's book ever since he came on the scene.

Frank has never mentioned Spezi that I'm aware until his last post. Why has he previously avoided that talk. Did he want to avoid any connection until he had reason to report Mignini's trial?



March 18, 2006

Douglas Preston, the best-selling thriller writer, left his home in coastal Maine to vacation in Italy with his family in February. Two weeks into the trip, Preston was summonsed to appear before Judge Giuliano Mignini in Perugia. He was given an official warning for perjury, false testimony, and withholding evidence. ''The judge verbally accused me of planting evidence, and of being an accessory to murder after the fact, which scared the hell out of me," he says by phone.

The charges are related to a nonfiction book Preston has co-written about a serial killer known as the Monster of Florence, who murdered and mutilated 14 people in the hills of Florence from 1974 to 1985....In 2004 Spezi appeared on Italian television and ridiculed Mignini's investigation. Shortly after, on Nov. 18, police showed up at Spezi's apartment in Florence at 6 in the morning and seized his papers, computer, and the book manuscript. The search warrant, signed by Mignini, stated that Spezi was under investigation for 18 crimes labeled ''A" through ''R," all unspecified and listed as ''segreto" (''secret"). According to Preston, Spezi has never been told what these crimes are...

Preston's publisher, Ornella Robbiati of RCS Libri, says she's not happy about the situation and doesn't want to be involved. ''Journalist Spezi and [the] main police investigator hate each other," says Robbiati, whose publishing company is Italy's largest. ''Why? I don't know. It's a complicated matter, this Monster of Florence. If they [Preston and Spezi] think they have discovered something useful to police and law, they should say something without insulting police and judges -- but it sounds too personal in my opinion, now."....

Since returning to Maine, Preston has appealed to US Senator Susan Collins for help. A Collins spokesperson told Preston that the senator has given it her highest priority and has asked the State Department to find out what evidence Italian authorities have against Preston.

Preston also wrote to online literary organizations and bloggers, who posted his indictment story on their sites. Spezi sent the posting from the International Thriller Writers, an association of 150 prominent authors including Preston, to the Italian media. Within days, Italy's two largest newspapers carried prominent stories about Preston's interrogation and the support he has received from the online writing community....In an e-mail translated by Preston, Spezi wrote that he has been barred from writing about the Monster of Florence in his old newspaper, La Nazione....


The Boston Globe



Spezi is directing the ‘innocentisti’ against the pm that arrested him

A battle has been launched on behalf of Amanda Knox. It involves letters, complaints, petitions sent to the CSM. Then there is the hidden part; the allegations, allusions, accusations. There are men behind the cards; they’ve been set against each other for a while. A battle. The American writer Douglas Preston sending a letter to the CSM was the first sign. He explained that the prosecutor Giuliano Mignini was preventing him from coming to Italy since he would be arrested if he did. Then judge Michael Heavey’s letter arrived at the CSM. It’s title was clear; “Request for the transfer of Amanda Knox’s trial from the court of Perugia’. Amoungst them is Mario Spezi, the sixty-two year old journalist for La Nazione and writer, author, with Preston of a book about the monster of Florence. A book which spent eight weeks in the top ten in America. This means success, tours, film rights bought by Tom Cruise’s United Artists for nearly a million dollars. The monster for Spezi however, means something else. It means 23 days in prison in 2006 with the accusation of derailing the investigation and involvement in the Narducci case. An ugly story. Who was the prosecutor that accused him? Mignini, the same one who is leading the investigation in the murder of Meredith Kercher. “I don’t hate Mignini”, he says, “I’m indignant.” Now, Spezi is involved in the murder in Perugia; “I’m not directing any plot, it’s all much simpler. In America, they know me because of my book and they asked me for help.” Mignini spoke at length during the indictment about ’systematic attacks on the judiciary.’ Where are they coming from? “From nine thousand kilometres away” even if “the minds behind it are in Italy”. Spezi doesn’t have doubts about this, “He’s talking about me, it’s clear.” Also because it’s sufficent to go to his blog and read “It seems like Putin’s Russia but in fact it’s Perugia.” It’s not a coincidence then that Spezi received the letter that Heavey addressed to the CSM asking for “Knox’s trial to be moved to a different court or given to another magistrate in order to obtain a fair trial.” There are men behind the cards and battles that seem to go on for years.


Translation of a CU story at Damian's blog
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:43 am   Post subject: Bleach receipts   

On bleach receipts or lack thereof:

...a series of bugged conversations in prison between the suspects and members of their family. Amoung these, there is one between Raffaele Sollecito, his father and his new wife, dated March1...

Raffaele then gets back to details of the investigation, trying to reconstruct what happened in the days leading up to the murder saying that there are receipts for the acquisition of bleach. (which, according to the police, was used to clean the cottage and Raffaele’s appartment in corso Garibaldi.)....


Translation of a story in Messaggero Umbria by Damian



The nightmare of the disappeared receipts

Like that of the bleach receipts…where did they end up, wonders Raffaele? His father reassures him: “The price was changed two months ago…it used to cost 85c and now it costs 90c…since she is…the price changed two months ago round here.”

And then there’s the nightmare of not being able to remember. When was the mobile phone turned on? When was the computer used?.....


Translation of a story in Messaggero Umbria by Damian


By November 25 investigations integrative granted after the sentencing dell'ivoriano ventritrenne Rudy Guédé to 30 years, with Rite shortened by the Gup Paolo Micheli, must be completed and now the two investigating magistrates Mignini and Convenient have entrusted to the police further investigations on tickets to a shop in Corso Garibaldi, a little distance from the house of Raffaele urge, after a witness reported seeing the young Amanda Knox at 7.45, 2 November 2007. In the hands of investigators there is already 'a receipt found in the home of call, which proves, it seems, the purchase of bleach. The witness statement made last Saturday in prosecutor, is considered reliable and important by inquienti, time of random in the store of food (at 7.45, while the American girl has always said that he had slept in house I call up to 10), both for the possibility 'of checks on the receipts issued on November 2 2007.

Google translation ofthis story in ASCA
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