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V. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 2 - Dec 31, 08

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:56 am   Post subject: V. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 2 - Dec 31, 08   

V. MAIN DISCUSSION, Oct 2 - Dec 31, 08






This is the main discussion thread regarding the achievement of truth and justice for Meredith Kercher and her family. Meredith, barely 21 years old, was brutally murdered in her own home on the 1st November 2007 whilst studying in Perugia, Italy.

To read the previous main discussion thread, please view IIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, July 5 - Oct 2

Michael (Co-Administrator/Moderator of Perugia Murder File)

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Last edited by Michael on Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:13 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:08 am   Post subject:    

Hi Michael,

Thank you for working so hard to provide us with a new thread.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 3:03 pm   Post subject: Hi Nicki :)   

Hey Nicki, great to see you :)

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 3:38 pm   Post subject: Seattle papers   

Finn wrote:

Quote:
I've also read with interest Michael's analysis of the positions of Candace Dempsey and Monica Guzman. I have a slightly different take on those two blogs. I don't see Guzman's comments as moving towards an official Seattle PI endoresement of Dempsey's viewpoint. Monica Guzman's main interests are in blogging and in new media - and her initial posts about this case were in relation to that. Candace Dempsey is a food writer who has taken on a crusading role in defence of Amanda Knox. I think that what interests Guzman about Dempsey's blog (and about Amanda Knox's case) is just that it attracts so many comments.


I agree that MG's interests are in new media/blogging, etc. and not in this case per se. Her first post ever, was entitled Amanda Knox and the Internet: Are We Being Fair?
Her position seemed to be that the image someone creates as an online persona or presence may not reflect the real person and should be considered in some way and to some extent private. In any case, that is what I understood her to be claiming. This is an important issue, but MG's treatment of it was unconvincing, in part because she fails to show how what someone writes for publication online, or photos published online, are really any different from what someone writes on any medium (including paper) or photos taken and then stuck in a drawer. The latter may not be out there for anyone to see, but isn't that because the author or subject doesn't want them to be? In the case of internet writings and photos, they are published items. The issue is worth exploring in depth.


Finn wrote:
Quote:
The internet has played, and continues to play, a very interesting role in this case. From the suspects' and victim's own home pages, through the page after page after page of comments, to the generation of spin-off messageboards like this one, the internet has kept this case very much alive in a way that would have been inconceivable ten years ago.


Yes, the suspects have an Internet presence, the victim had one, and we would most likely not have known this had Meredith Kercher not been murdered. This case would not have been written about as it has been without the existence of an instantaneous means of electronic conveyance for the ongoing conversation. This certainly has an upside and a downside, and I would argue that one of the reasons for the love-hate relationship between the Knox/Mellas family and the media is directly related to the desire to exploit the upside potential. No PR firm in the world has yet figured out how to eliminate the downside. What I wonder is how much of the ongoing downside (in both mainstream and blogstream media) is actually fueled by attempts to exploit the upside. Anyway, it is complicated.

Finn wrote:
Quote:
I don't think Seattle PI is likely to take sides on the case before judgement is passed. But I would expect Monica Guzman to take interest in anything that has sent the exciting new world of blog-journalism into such a frenzy.


I doubt that either hometown paper will take sides. So far, both have behaved as expected. Many of the articles have been picked up from AP sources. The Seattle Times ran one interview with the family that was sympathetic. Personally, regardless of one's feelings about the case and although my heart will always go out first and foremost to the Kerchers, I believe that the fallout for the families of suspects is real and painful. It is hard for me to make light of that or sweep it aside, but that doesn't mean I don't get angry when I see how the media exploits that pain. The case has gotten more coverage than the average murder abroad, but that is to be expected--after all, one of the protagonists is a hometown girl.
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Offline Corrina


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:56 pm   Post subject:    

Oh, I hated to visit the table of the Amanda Knox Defense Blog but had to see it. Kelly is a piece of work, that's for sure. As for the head of the table over there, well I like how she implies that Maresca gagged Stephanie before she presumably was ready to cry out and demand justice for Amanda Knox. I mean, after all, she and Meredith were best of friends, weren't they? That's what Amanda, Edda and Curt say. I find it amusing too that when she had up her piece on the diary, she went on and on about how there were so many references to Meredith in it and yet she would only produce the ones already reported on.

Good work, Skepper-Doodle (like a snickerdoodle, only, well, you aren't a cinnamon-y cookie that is delicious dipped in coffee. Well, maybe you are delicious dipped in coffee but I've never done that. YET.) Lordy, still have a touch of the brain fever it seems...
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:19 pm   Post subject: Karl Rove, Kelly13 and me   

Corinna wrote:

Quote:
I like how she implies that Maresca gagged Stephanie before she presumably was ready to cry out and demand justice for Amanda Knox. I mean, after all, she and Meredith were best of friends, weren't they? That's what Amanda, Edda and Curt say.


Yes, that is clearly the Karl Rove-like implication, isn't it?
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Offline Corrina


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:33 pm   Post subject: Re: Karl Rove, Kelly13 and me   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:

Yes, that is clearly the Karl Rove-like implication, isn't it?


That's sure how it came across. Good on you for getting that out there but there is a problem. When I (just) googled "True Justice for Meredith Kercher" the first thing is a hit for that table heaped with half-truths. How do we change that? You know, like googling "Sarah Palin will be wearing her hair down tonight/hiding the microphone" or something...oops, did I type that?
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Offline Corrina


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:35 pm   Post subject:    

Just thinking about the Kercher family and how the likes of Kelly and Sam think they should tell their lawyer to *shout* his mouth...

came across this one:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/ap ... ly.ukcrime

Gotta hand it to the cook, though. You can almost picture Maresca's hand in Lyle's back, moving his mouth, can't you?
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Offline Kermit


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:54 pm   Post subject: Sitting here on that sack of seeds ...   

Well, this does have a familiar look-and-feel to it. Thanks Michael for your efforts in getting the Perugia Murder File in shape for seamless crossover.

Here are some images from Panorama, of blood stains being identified on the inside of the victim's door. Independently of these images on Panorama, I lost the link to a reference from two weeks ago referring to a finger print of Raffaele being identified on the inside of the victim's door. No further information (ie. on the handle or on the door or on the poster, neither what substance the print was made with).

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Offline Corrina


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:43 pm   Post subject: In through the out door   

Thanks, Kermit, for posting those. It will be interesting to find out whether or not Raffaele's fingerprint was inside the door. Hey, Nicki; can fingerprints be subject to cross-contamination, along with DNA? :shock:

Actually, I can hear/read it now.... "you can see from the photos they are wiping the doorknob off! What kind of keystone cops are they anyway?"
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:09 pm   Post subject: Hi to Kermit! And, oh yes, those other bogs   

Hi kermit :)

Well, there's still some tweaking to do and I still have some goodies to bring in...but, we certainly have a board to post on in the meantime :)

I see you've brought some goodies yourself...

I take it from that perspective he's working on the 'inside' of the room. It's clear from that then that there was no 'accidental' locking of the door with a catch being up/down/whatever...when that door was locked, whether it was locked 'more' then once or not, it was done so 'deliberately' and it was done with a key.

I recall the fingerprint you mention, although I don't remember seeing it mentioned over the past couple of weeks...maybe it was 3-4 weeks ago. I couldn't swear to it...but I think I recall F.B.N mentioning it...that may be the one to ask.

Hello to everyone else by the way :)

I see the goings on on the Dempsey bog are dominating discussion at the minute. Well they might. Some ill informed meddling NGO and an arrogant and naive kid whose whole world is 'the tabloids' (and therefore in his mind, they are everyone elses) reveling in the freedom to be able to attack the Kerchers. It's good...it's good we saw this, what they 'really' think towards Meredith and the Kerchers instead of the silence about them, or worse in my view, the meaningless lip service they pay to them on occasion (when feeling pressured about it). No altruism with his lot, they are 'sure' of their place in the Universe...somewhere right in the center with everything else just going round them. One knows what these people would be like on a sinking ship...throwing women and babies out of the lifeboat to make room for themselves to get in...then paddling off with it half empty, leaving everyone else to sink or swim.

So, where's everyone else...waiting for the hearing?

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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:28 pm   Post subject:    

If anyone didn't get the opportunity to read Skep's excellent post about the IW's blog, they can read it on the TJMK site. Here's the link:

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php

A couple of group members also made some great comments on Skep's post.
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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:43 pm   Post subject: Re: Sitting here on that sack of seeds ...   

Kermit wrote:
Well, this does have a familiar look-and-feel to it. Thanks Michael for your efforts in getting the Perugia Murder File in shape for seamless crossover.

Here are some images from Panorama, of blood stains being identified on the inside of the victim's door. Independently of these images on Panorama, I lost the link to a reference from two weeks ago referring to a finger print of Raffaele being identified on the inside of the victim's door. No further information (ie. on the handle or on the door or on the poster, neither what substance the print was made with).



Hi Kermit,

Thanks for these pictures. I had asked awhile ago about the "keyhole" RS referred to that he looked through and "saw a bag on the bed and the wardrobe door open". Would the keyhole be that black thing on the bottom of the brass assembly? That seems big to me? Do you think it could afford RS such a panoramic view of the dark room? Here's my post from September 18.

Quote:
As I was reading through some of Damian's translations (DAMIAN - we miss you!), I found something small, but it's been bugging me since I first read it:

Quote:
damian



Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:16 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is translated from 'Cronaca di un Delitto', page 43/44. They say this is what RS said.

" 'She (AK d) had knocked several times on the door (Meredith's d) and called in the direction of Meredith's room. I tried to look through the keyhole and I saw a large bag and that the wardrobe door was open. Then I told her to call her friends. In the meantime I called my sister who told me to call 112. We waited outside for the Carabinieri. The Postal Police arrived and they wanted to talk to the Italian flatmate who owned the sim card. When the agents from the Postal Police arrived we were outside the house. I remeber that I called 112 before they arrived. I spoke to the agents as did Amanda...I told them that something was strange, showing them the wide-open door to a room with broken glass on the floor and the locked door to Meredith's room. The flatmate arrived with her boyfriend and his friends. The Postal Police agents broke Meredith's door down and said they'd seen a foot and some blood.' "


I don't have a keyhole to test this, but Filomena's boyfriend's friends stated that the room was quite dark. In addition, is it possible that Sollecito would have such a wide angle view through a small keyhole? Maybe he'd be able to make out the shape of the bag on the bed, but to see the wardrobe open over to the right? Maybe it was a BIG keyhole!


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also, here is a post from me about RS's "footprint" (Google translation!) in Meredith's room:

Quote:
Tara



Joined: 29 Jun 2008
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Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:37 pm Post subject: RS print on wall

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's a Google translation of a recent report. It appears they have evidence of Sollecito's "footprint" (I'm assuming handprint or fingerprint) on a wall in Meredith's room? I hadn't heard that before...

Quote:
Six points for the charges against him - the knife found the murder weapon was found in the house where lived in Perugia - the footprint found on the wall of the bedroom of Meredith, the footprint found on refrigerator of the house in via della Pergola, the place of the crime - traces of the genetic profile found to urge the bra of Meredith - the imprint of the shoe found in the room next to that of the victim, considered compatible with that of Raphael -- the story of an alleged witness who saw him with Amanda and Rudy, on the evening of murder, near the house.


http://tinyurl.com/4sb63l

Is this a reliable source?


Michael,

This is looking great! Thank you so much again... :D
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Offline Kermit


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:58 pm   Post subject: Re: Sitting here on that sack of seeds ...   

Tara wrote:
I had asked awhile ago about the "keyhole" RS referred to that he looked through and "saw a bag on the bed and the wardrobe door open". Would the keyhole be that black thing on the bottom of the brass assembly? That seems big to me? Do you think it could afford RS such a panoramic view of the dark room?
-------------

Six points for the charges against him - the knife found the murder weapon was found in the house where lived in Perugia - the footprint found on the wall of the bedroom of Meredith, the footprint found on refrigerator of the house in via della Pergola, . . .


Hi Tara,

Regarding the "panoramic keyhole", I think it is an example of how liars feel that to be convincing, they have to invent really complex lies. He could have just said "I looked through the keyhole and couldn't see much". Instead, he says he saw a wardrobe off to the right, at an impossible angle. In addition, even if it were possible, his gaze would have had to cross the victim's covered body (with visible foot) which was between the door and the wardrobe. And, as you point out, his "wide angle keyhole view" was done into a dark room.

Ref, his "footprint on the wall", that's Google translation pulling a trick on you. "Footprint" would be some sort of "print", finger or hand (same thing with the print on the fridge). Now, you are making me think that his "[s]foot[/s]print" in the victim's room is perhaps precisely the fingerprint I was referring to (from an unreferenced article 2 or more weeks ago) which is on the inside of the victim's door.
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:20 pm   Post subject: Re: In through the out door   

Corrina wrote:
Thanks, Kermit, for posting those. It will be interesting to find out whether or not Raffaele's fingerprint was inside the door. Hey, Nicki; can fingerprints be subject to cross-contamination, along with DNA? :shock:

Actually, I can hear/read it now.... "you can see from the photos they are wiping the doorknob off! What kind of keystone cops are they anyway?"


Hi Corrina,

A fingerprint is the print of the ridges of all or any part of the finger, the "dermal ridges" or "dermal papillae" that is left on surfaces because of the secretions (sweat) present on the finger. They identify a specific individual and they cannot be cross-contaminated, but if they are partial or confused, I guess it would make it hard or even impossible to determine exactly who they belong to.
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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:40 pm   Post subject: Liar Liar pants on fire!   

Kermit,

You bring up a really good point about liars and how they can trip up by telling too many details.

I was looking for something else when I came across this old article. I had forgotten about Amanda's class assignment on Monday morning, November 5th. She was to write a letter to someone, and she chose her mother, Edda. Here's a quote from the article:

Quote:
Amanda Knox, the American student accused of involvement in the murder of Meredith Kercher, calmly went to Italian classes the day before her arrest and wrote an imaginary letter to her mother in which she referred to the killing as a "mystery" and talked about future shopping trips.

Sources at the University for Foreigners in Perugia, which Ms Knox and Ms Kercher began attending in September, said that on Monday November 5 students were asked to write a letter "to whoever you like" as a test of their Italian language skills. Although the body of Ms Kercher had been found the previous Friday morning at the cottage she and Ms Knox shared with two Italian female students, Ms Knox sat in the front row of the class and penned a letter to her mother Edda in Seattle.

In the letter, extracts from which appeared yesterday in the Italian press, she told her mother she was "shaken" and "nervous" because of the murder, adding that she did not want to sleep at the cottage any more. "I can't think about anything else," she wrote. "What happened is still a mystery." She told her mother she looked forward to going shopping with her for clothes, adding "I have not finished with Perugia yet".

Police said the letter, which has been added to the growing dossier of evidence on the murder, offered "psychological insight" into Ms Knox's state of mind. "Its all about her, not about the victim" one source close to the investigation said.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 869155.ece

So, we have the diary, the 4 page email and this assignment for class. I really don't think that I could sit down and do this kind of stuff if my roommate and "good friend" had just been brutally murdered. I seriously doubt that I would attend classes right away either.

We also have her really vascillating on where to live:

Sunday, 11/4/07, 3:30am: The email states that "it sucks that she had to pay rent and can't
live in the cottage."

Monday, 11/5/07, am class: She says she's shaken and nervous and doesn't want to sleep
at the cottage anymore and wants to go shopping.

Monday, 11/5/07, 10:30pm: She called Filomena to see if she still wanted to live together.

All these writings give her practice to bone up on her story, IMO. A person who tells the truth would never have to do this!!

Does anyone remember who it was (Curt Knox??) that said Amanda withdrew her rent money on Monday, November 5th? Did I dream this??? :?***

***Edited to add the following link which says Amanda said she withdrew 362 euros from the bank on Monday, November 5, to pay her rent.

http://tinyurl.com/3n785b


Last edited by Tara on Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:16 am   Post subject: Now We're Playing Hardball   

Okay, lots to talk about here...it seems the Knox camp is now going hyper-aggressive in their prosecution of the case outside the courtroom...the conclusion of the statement is clear...blame it all on Rudy Guede 'overtly'...the gloves are truly off and it's cranked up a few gears now:

"The following is a statement from local supporters of Amanda Knox. Anne Bremner, a defense attorney and former prosecutor is speaking on their behalf."

http://www.kirotv.com/news/17611206/detail.html


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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:23 am   Post subject: KiroTV Publish Second Article on Knox Camp Statement   

KiroTV have a second article up regarding the Knox Camp Statement:

http://www.kirotv.com/news/17612073/detail.html

Isn't it also KiroTV that took Dempsey on on commission to cover the hearing? I think we can rule Dempsey out as a mere biased blogger reporting news and voicing opinions. She and the Knox family are in deep together. Some disclosure would be nice.

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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:56 am   Post subject: Anne Bremner   

Here's Anne Bremner's page from the law firm website:
http://www.staffordfrey.com/a_bremner.htm

Michael,

KIRO is the CBS affiliate in Seattle. It was KOMO, the ABC affiliate in Seattle that had the "call in" report by CD from the last hearing in Perugia. Now, let's see if our local NBC affiliate, KING, will be weighing in.

ABC = KOMO 4
NBC = KING 5
CBS = KIRO 7
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 4:19 am   Post subject: Re: Anne Bremner   

Tara wrote:
Here's Anne Bremner's page from the law firm website:
http://www.staffordfrey.com/a_bremner.htm

Michael,

KIRO is the CBS affiliate in Seattle. It was KOMO, the ABC affiliate in Seattle that had the "call in" report by CD from the last hearing in Perugia. Now, let's see if our local NBC affiliate, KING, will be weighing in.

ABC = KOMO 4
NBC = KING 5
CBS = KIRO 7


Hi Tara,

Thanks for filling me in. I must confess, I'm not the clearest in understanding when it comes to American news groups, companies and agencies, or the affiliate structure.

So, how prominent is Kiro as a news organisation...is it a big player and well respected in terms of quality and standards? How politically partisan/neutral is it or is the political partisanship in the US really only applicable to the big national/international news organisations?

What are your thoughts on the article?

Michael

PS: I love your avatar..it instills all sorts of good emotions in me :)

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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 4:37 am   Post subject: KIRO VIDEO   

Michael,

The KIRO news just aired the report. Here's the video link. CBS (KIRO) is the channel that is home to "48 Hours" with the Paul Ciolino piece. (NBC is the home of "Dateline") It appears that Anne Bremner has appeared on many news and morning shows weighing in with her opinion on high profile cases. To be honest, after watching this video, it seems to be more of the same thing. (It sure has Goofy excited on the other 2 blogs!)

http://www.kirotv.com/video/17612178/index.html


Tomorrow night, they will focus on the diary.

I rarely watch the news on this channel, so I'll have to do some research.


PS. That avatar looks just like my black tuxedo cat when he is looking out the window at the depressing rain here in Seattle!! I found it on a free avatar site! :D
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:28 am   Post subject: Bloody Spin   

Tara -

Yeah...just my browser seems to have issues with a certain type of embedded video...

You are right, in that the piece has very little of anything new in regard to 'content'. What it is is spin leant credence because it's from the mouth of a lawyer. We've seen how much gravitas they can carry merely by saying something is or is not so when often they are speaking as much rubbish as enyone else. Joe T's 20% comes to mind. All he had to do was utter it...he didn't needed to back it up with anything more then being given 'exclusive access to case files' but no evidence required, no journalist 'ever' asked if he could support it, it was just taken at face value merely because he said. There are 'still' people who on occassion come out with that 20% and swear it's true...a certain funnycat comes to mind, but then pretty much every line she writes is misinformation, twisting or spin. If she said the sky was blue...I'd go outside and check.

What 'is' really different with this is that the Knox's/Mellas's have been running a very intense media campaign, but on the whole it has been overtly to 'woo' the press and therefore the public through that medium (albeit whilst being completely obnoxious on the blogs and such). This however, is a whole change in 'tone'...overt and ferocious in its aggression and wholely explicit in pointing the finger at Rudy for the whole shebang. They've formally gone on the offensive in public, outside of the court. It would seem they've also learned something...and ironically, it's from the Kerchers.

You can say what you want, just don't ever be heard saying attacking/aggressive things
yourself...have your 'lawyer' say it and in a tone that it is in his/her expert opinion. It is almost impossible to appear the victim if your are the one attacking...using a lawyer shields one against the negative association.

It changes nothing in court of course, the evidence and the judge will have the say on that...but then, this is not for the court's benefit but the American (and perhaps British) public's.

There is one new little piece of information though...the dna on the knife that was from organic matter that wasn't blood and I'm very sorry to say it's what I had been guessing it was...flesh.

It has been enlightening in other ways too...the argument we have seen many a time to explain the footprints..'the shower'...this is clear that it is what they are going to actually use and continue with as an official defence. Very risky. mFor, this is one way that Charlie Wilkes has been very useful, you heard right, as even with his vast store of other cases he was unable to dig up a precedent for someone innocently whilst at a murder scene taking a shower where there are a few 'spots' of blood, creating a trail of bloody footprints as a result.

Moreover, were that to fly in any way at all to even perhaps cast a 'shadow' of a doubt on them...the bloody footprint on the bathmat is the killer, no pun intended. It it were layed on getting 'out' of the shower (and the mat had somehow got turned around after) ones feet should be fresh and clean...so where did so much blood appear from so quickly to coat the foot to such an extent it left such a visible print on the mat?

If layed getting 'in'...the vital dilluting element of water is missing. Amanda clearly described a few small drops of blood here and there. Blood dries fast...unless there is a deep lake of it, Meredith had died many hours before and there were drying air currents passing through the cottage thanks to the broken window and additionally, if one is to believe Amanda, the front door had been open and that would have caused a chimney effect. Yet, we are supposed to accept that very small amounts of blood were still sufficiently wet after at least TEN-TWELVE HOURS as to spread a nice covering over the soles of her feet. Are we supposed to think that Meredith had no platelets in her blood?

The 'only' means wet blood could have coated the feet is by a 'smearing' action with the feet whilst it was fresh, or mixed with liquid...a smearing where the feet wipe 'accross' the floor with friction, but then that won't work either. Newtons Laws - when two opposing equal forces are applied...In that process...the floor would not only be smearing Amanda's feet with 'visible' blood...Amanda's feet would also be smearing the 'FLOOR' with 'VISIBLE' blood. Where are these visible smears from feet? Moreover, if the blood was still wet after 10-12 hours...why not 13-14? Why, are there no footprints of anyone 'else' who came into the hhouse and walked 'all over' that cottage? Do postal police not have feet? Where Amanda's housemates and their friends missing their feet? If the defence are arguing some kind of ridiculous drying/wetting/then drying again time table that somehow 'just' managed to catch Amanda and make her look 'exactly' like she had just been directly involved in a brutal and bloody murder, one is asking us to accept a miracle of timing that is just as ridiculous, if not more so, then Rudy just happening to be in the toilet for the inside ten minutes that Meredith was fatally attacked! Rudy's ridiculous 'kebab' story covers a period of only inside ten minutes whilst the Knox camp want to completely rewrite the laws of physics and biology for 14 + hours!

Then of course, after that, one also has to answer what Sollecito's bloody bare/socked footprints were doing there in the corridor.

Add to the mix the blood all over the place that shows up only under luminol and they are relying on a 'shower' as a defence? Add further that we are supposed to believe that Amanda merrily strips naked, showers and does laundry and other admin in a house to which she found the front door open,l appears tt be empty, where Filomens's room has been ransacked, the open door to which she must have walked past several times...happily stepping in the blood she can 'see'.

Is this the story they are going to tell the judge????

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Bluetit


Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:01 am

Posts: 39

Location: France

PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:21 am   Post subject: Fingerprint(s) on inner side of Meredith's door   

About that fingerprint on the inside of Meredith's door :

Kermit wrote
(...) a reference from two weeks ago referring to a finger print of Raffaele being identified on the inside of the victim's door. No further information (...)

Kermit wrote
(...) you are making me think that his "footprint" in the victim's room is perhaps precisely the fingerprint I was referring to (from an unreferenced article 2 or more weeks ago) which is on the inside of the victim's door.

From KIRO
http://www.kirotv.com/news/17612073/detail.html
"Those bloody fingerprints on the wall, those are his [i.e. Rudy's. Bl.] and all the blood, the bloody fingerprints on door handle, on her purse, it’s all his," Bremner said.


This fingerprint (or these fingerprints ?) may prove very important, indeed crucial.

We don't know much about it -- not even whether it was on the handle or elsewhere (or, if there are several prints, both), or whether it was bloody or not.

In any case, IF it proves to be Rudy's, this will not matter one way or the other, since RG does agree he was in the room and he wiped his bloody hands practically everywhere.

IF however it proves to be RS's, I think it will provide PROOF of his guilt, especially if Meredith's blood is present, obviously. But even if the print is blood-free, it would nail him, I think, because both RS and AK claim (I believe -- please correct me if I am wrong) that RS never set foot in Meredith's room (why indeed would he have done so before the murder ?).
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:26 pm   Post subject: Alleged 'Unidentified' Bloody Hand Print on Bathroom Door   

Bluetit -

Bluetit wrote:
In any case, IF it proves to be Rudy's, this will not matter one way or the other, since RG does agree he was in the room and he wiped his bloody hands practically everywhere.

IF however it proves to be RS's, I think it will provide PROOF of his guilt, especially if Meredith's blood is present, obviously. But even if the print is blood-free, it would nail him, I think, because both RS and AK claim (I believe -- please correct me if I am wrong) that RS never set foot in Meredith's room (why indeed would he have done so before the murder ?).


Hi Bluetit :)

You've just reminded me. A strange anonymous poster came onto Franks about three or four weeks ago. He/she claimed to have contacts in the ILE, including within the Roma Forensics Department. They claimed that their source in forensics had found a bloody hand print on the bathroom door handle which did 'not' belong to any of the three suspects, but rather to someone 'else' that they were 'unable' to identify identify (the anon offered no reasons as to 'why' that was). According to the anon, there was consternation in the forensics department over the seeming lack of interest by the Perugia investigators to investigate evidence of a 'fouth' individual at the crime scene.

The anon simply had swooped into Farnk's comments section and without introduction aside from alluding to being 'connected' in Italy, proceeded to make three or so long posts in a very self assured tone, addressed to Knox camp supporters on the thread and another rebuking a poster that was disparraging of AK. It was really quite an entrance, to the point of causing myself to write a very detailed and long response of my own.

By their tone on entry, to me they just reeked of 'lawyer'...to the point I actually quipped something akin to 'I was wondering when someone from Joe T's office might stop by.' The information offered, as well as the individual themselves' were unsupported and unverified with no credentials being offered, other then an air of authority. I myself, mainly on instinct , suspected we were getting a dis/misinformation hand grenade thrown into the room for the purpose of putting the debate off track for a period of time and to make us look fools for trying to reason out a fact that didn't exist.

I therefore decided to do nothing more then make a mental note of it just in case some information to support it did later emerge. Certain indivividuals in the Knox camp 'were' quite eager to debate it though. However, I made sure I put a stop to that before it started and killed that debate off.

Last point, it was around the time when the Knox/Mellas camp had not long been in possession of the 10,000 word statement and the defence lawyers had been quiet for some time. It wasn't lost on me at the time that strange things do tend to occur just before, or not long after, a key event occurs in the syllabus of the legal process. So, in the words of another...make of it what you will.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Last edited by Michael on Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline FinnMacCool


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:36 pm   Post subject: Re: Seattle papers   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
[Monica Guzman's] position seemed to be that the image someone creates as an online persona or presence may not reflect the real person and should be considered in some way and to some extent private. In any case, that is what I understood her to be claiming. This is an important issue, but MG's treatment of it was unconvincing, in part because she fails to show how what someone writes for publication online, or photos published online, are really any different from what someone writes on any medium (including paper) or photos taken and then stuck in a drawer. The latter may not be out there for anyone to see, but isn't that because the author or subject doesn't want them to be? In the case of internet writings and photos, they are published items. The issue is worth exploring in depth.


Thanks Skep – and I finally succeeded in registering for this place! (Damn, your drunk tests are hard...)

I pretty much agree with all of your analysis there. I was interested in Monica Guzman’s original post (“Are we being fair?”) because I think it raises an interesting issue in relation to how we respond to crimes in the new world of the web – where the only nobodys are the people without any cyberpresence. As a result of MySpace and Facebook, and so on, suddenly everybody’s a somebody and everybody is everywhere.

Trouble is, that question got overtaken by complexities of this particular case, which turned out to be not straightforward at all.
The first post I ever made on Seattle PI was to say, “Actually, the person we’re not being fair to is Patrick Lumumba...”. Lumumba was, at the time, routinely identified as probably guilty, even though it seemed to me at the time (and of course this is how it later turned out) that the evidence against him was specious. It also seemed to me that what counted AGAINST him (at least in the blog world) was his lack of a cyberpresence. People could argue about Amanda’s “drunk” video, or Raffaele’s fancy dress photos, or even Rudy’s “vampire” video – because they could see those people as human beings, and they could find different ways to interpret their behaviours.

By contrast, Lumumba would be speculated about as “the creepy older guy” (or even just “the African”) in ways that couldn’t possibly fit to the real life Patrick Lumumba. So the lesson I’d take from that would be, in fact, almost the opposite of what Monica Guzman was suggesting – that if you don’t have a cyberpresence at all, it is likely to count against you in the court of public opinion.

We could probably all (you, me, Guzman) agree that we need to be extremely careful about what we put online. It’s certainly not a good idea to Youtube yourself as a bloodsucking vampire, for example. But I’m not convinced that the warts ‘n all presences of the three suspects really count against them in any kind of meaningful way. Okay, the tabloids will love to pick up on that daft photo you took, and anonymous internet posters might use it as evidence to prove you’re a psychopath, but a lot of other people will see it as evidence of your ordinariness and innocence. (“If he really was a mad killer, he wouldn’t have made such a silly video...”)

My very banal conclusion is that cyberpresences are nothing to be scared of, and that people will continue to be tried by hard evidence, and not by what they posted of themselves on MySpace.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:29 pm   Post subject: GUP turns down request from Raffaele's defense   

Some late news before the court case tomorrow. The GUP turned down a late request from Raffaele's team for the logs of the movement of the DNA tested items

He said they'd had all year to ask for them.

It is interesting to ask "Why wait until now??".

They made a late request last week because they had a problem with the papers from the scientifica which put off the DNA hearing until this week.

If the GUP had agreed to their request, I assume it would have been cause to put off the DNA pre-trial hearing yet again.

Why make these last minute requests and seek to delay the hearing??

Google translation of the story in La Nazione
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:50 pm   Post subject:    

More on tomorrows court date:

Sollecito and Knox to dispute their DNA findings on several grounds.

Rudy to accept the forensic evidence which places him there but wants the scientifica to confirm their was no evidence of rape. I suspect Walter will level the argument; What's good enough for a DNA test for Rudy sholud be good enough for everyone else. He's got his DNA expert there and I know they were interested in the DNA on the knife.

Rudy + scientifica v Raffaele and Amanda.



Google translation of Affaritaliani - 2 pages
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:57 pm   Post subject: Tommorow Hearing   

From La Nazione about tomorrow hearing (Sollecito attacks Scientifica) : http://tinyurl.com/4xm5su

1.Sollecito 's defense team request of seeing the entire logfiles of the DNA sequencer has been denied by the Judge who has deemed those data unuseful-since data in approved international standards have already been supplied and agreed upon by both police and defense experts. .
Also, according to Judge Micheli, the defense request comes in too late since they had the chance to ask for such complete logfiles before the first pretrial
hearing

2.Bra fragment: Sollecito's defense will argue that the specimen was collected using gloves and not a forceps and thus it has been contaminated (difficult to understand how because Meredith blood was everywhere so in case of contamination, most likely her DNA would have showed up and
not Sollecito's). They will also claim that since Sollecito was Knox's boyfriend and has visited the house, his DNA could have ended up on Meredith 's bra by chance.

3. Knife and bloody prints: they will argue that Sollecito's kitchen knife is not compatible with the murder weapon, and neither are the bloody knife traces found on the sheet are not compatible. Interestingly, there is no mention of Meredith's DNA matching half of Italy. They also claim that the bloody footprints are not compatible with Sollecito's.

4. A team of criminologist will also argue that Sollecito's blog content doesn't relate whatsoever to the personality of the suspect
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:57 pm   Post subject: Myspace, yourspace, ourspace   

Finn wrote:

Quote:
My very banal conclusion is that cyberpresences are nothing to be scared of, and that people will continue to be tried by hard evidence, and not by what they posted of themselves on MySpace.


I agree with you, and also with your claim that Lumumba's lack of web presence may have hurt him initially. I recall that Frank, in his write-up of his last bitter face-to-face with his former friend, noted that Lumumba would undoubtedly not even read his post because he (Lumumba) was not into the Internet.


Nicki wrote:

Quote:
A team of criminologists will also argue that Sollecito's blog content doesn't relate whatsoever to the personality of the suspect.


My guess is that this is intended to introduce the idea that prosecutor, police and judiciary have been biased in their approach to this crime because of the blog. In other words, it is a covert counter-accusation.
It may be difficult to establish the exact relationship between blog content and personality, but it strikes me as ludicrous to suggest there is no relationship at all. If the content is totally made up, we might venture a guess that the personality who created it likes to invent things, has a good imagination, wants others to see him or her in a particular way, likes to hide behind an online presence rather than reveal himself/herself, etc. In other words, the relationship is complex and anyway, as Finn points out, nobody would offer it of hard evidence. This seems like a huge distraction.
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Offline FinnMacCool


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 4:13 pm   Post subject: Re: Tommorow Hearing   

nicki wrote:
A team of criminologist will also argue that Sollecito's blog content doesn't relate whatsoever to the personality of the suspect


Thanks for that, Nicki - and I agree entirely with Skep's analysis of point 4 there. If you create a blog, then it's created by your personality, simple as that. Sure, if you pretend to be a bloodsucking vampire, it doesn't mean you ARE one, or even that you THINK you're one. But it does mean that you're the kind of person who would do that type of thing when faced with a webcam, because, well, that's what you did.

Same thing applies to the blogs of Amanda Knox, Raffaele Sollecito, and for that matter to the wayward ramblings of Finn MacCool.
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Offline Corrina


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:20 pm

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 4:38 pm   Post subject: Here, There and Everywhere   

Thanks for posting that, Nicki.

Is it just me, or is the idea that Raffaele's DNA appearing on Meredith's bra clasp being explained away by his having visited the flat before, um, well, NUTS? What about the people who actually lived there? Talk about desperation.
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:40 pm   Post subject: Re: Here, There and Everywhere   

Corrina wrote:
Thanks for posting that, Nicki.

Is it just me, or is the idea that Raffaele's DNA appearing on Meredith's bra clasp being explained away by his having visited the flat before, um, well, NUTS? What about the people who actually lived there? Talk about desperation.


Many of the theories being put forward by the defence teams are just ridiculous. Rudy having a date with Meredith, him conveniently being on the toilet when the killers sneaked in and killed Meredith, and him fleeing to Germany because he feared that he wouldn't get a fair trial. Amanda was confused and couldn't remember what had happened on the night of the murder because she had smoked cannabis, she had the confession beaten out of her, she stepped into Meredith's blood and tracked it round the house and Meredith's DNA on the knife could match half of the Italian population. Raffaele has also tried to blame cannabis for his convenient amnesia, his defence team claim the police timer was faulty and that he had actually called the police before the postal police arrived even though Raffaele had admitted that he called them afterwards.

Raffaele's DNA got on Meredith's bra because he removed it when he was in her room. That's the only plausible explanation. His defence team are going to hotly dispute this evidence because it's so damning. The circumstantial evidence is very strong too. Amanda and Raffaele turning their mobile phones off at the same time shortly before Meredith's murder. Their lawyers will say it's just a coincidence. Amanda taking a bucket and mop to Raffaele's on 1 November because his kitchen pipes happened to leak that day. It will be dismissed as another coincidence. Amanda and Raffaele suffering from acute amnesia about that day again. Just another coincidence? Amanda and Raffaele giving conflicting and different accounts of what happened on 1 November. Yet another coincidence? Amanda and Raffale both have a very serious credibility problem.


Last edited by The Machine on Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:40 pm   Post subject: Re: Here, There and Everywhere   

Corrina wrote:
Thanks for posting that, Nicki.

Is it just me, or is the idea that Raffaele's DNA appearing on Meredith's bra clasp being explained away by his having visited the flat before, um, well, NUTS? What about the people who actually lived there? Talk about desperation.


I agree Corrina. Too many unfortunate coincidences for Sollecito indeed: if using gloves is the reason why his DNA is on the bra I would expect DNA from different sources to be there as well. The same goes for the "accidental" brushing of Sollecito's cells just because he was there. I will be surprised if the judge accepts their arguments on the DNA.

To my opinion they have better chances to argue there is no proof the knife is indeed the murder weapon (it only has been stated as compatible),than to show that the whole scientific police team are a bunch of incompetent cops. But of course they would still have to explain Meredith's DNA on the blade-since it seems they are not arguing this-and Sollecito's scarce cooking skills is a lame explanation, I think.
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Offline DLW


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:41 pm

Posts: 623

PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:40 pm   Post subject:    

Hi all. Michael you did a fantastic job of recreating the original website. With some new bells and whistles. I’m a creature of habit, and so adjusting to this new site is easy.
Nick Pisa weighs in on this court hearing on the DNA tomorrow.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... xpert.html
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:56 pm   Post subject: Tomorrow Will be Make or Break!   

Hi DLW...glad to see you :)

Keeping the board to the same structual format as TC was done especially as to make the board simple and easy to use from the very beginning despite any of the new bells and whistles. I'm very happy my intentions in that regard worked out for at least one or two people. I'm not done yet though...a little more work still and we also have the upgrade tp PHPBB3 to come of course.


All -

F.Y.I, new article regarding tomorrow's hearing in The Mail. They are hailing tomorrow as the most important hearing in the series and the trial against RS and AK will go ahead, or not, because based upon tomorrow. It would seem all camps agree on this fact:

"One source close to the prosecutor Giuliano Mignini said: 'This hearing is crucial to the whole case against them - if the judge decides the evidence is flawed then the whole thing falls.'

Last night judge Micheli speaking ahead of the hearing said: 'There is no doubt that the decision on whether the proceedings continue or are dropped rests significantly on the biological evidence.'

All the lawyers have hired their own scientific experts and Knox's and Sollecito will both argue that the DNA evidence was contaminated by the police and as such should not be regarded as sufficient proof.

All three suspects are due in court for the hearing and all deny any involvement in Meredith's death - police say she died as the result of a bungled sex game.

Marco Brusco, one of Sollecito's lawyers, said: 'This hearing is of crucial importance to the whole case and it is a very important day.

'We are convinced that the DNA evidence against our client is flawed and we will prove this in court.

'If the judge decides that is the case then there is no way that the case can continue and it will have to be dropped.'"


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... xpert.html

Michael

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Corrina


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:56 pm   Post subject: Creature Comforts   

I like how Michael has kept this as close as possible to the old board, too. Makes it easy for non-techie types to get around. And I did find out how to change the background so I don't have red letters on the black.

That Daily Mail article sure makes it sound like the case is being tossed, doesn't it? Sort of reminiscent of April Fool's Day. Guess we'll see. Or all of you will anyway and I will be stuck waiting all weekend to find out what the hell happened!
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Offline Fly by Night


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:09 pm

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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:09 pm   Post subject: Re: KIRO VIDEO   

Tara wrote:
CBS (KIRO) is the channel that is home to "48 Hours" with the Paul Ciolino piece. (NBC is the home of "Dateline") It appears that Anne Bremner has appeared on many news and morning shows weighing in with her opinion on high profile cases.


And let's not forget the highly forgettable Seattle KIRO newsradio interviews (i.e. with Ciolino & Van Sant) by celebrated talk show host Dave Ross. Apparently no one bothered to notify the Italians that this case was solved and closed by Ross 6 months ago. So, now we have celebrated Seattle Lawyer Anne Bremner distributing a doctored video and proclaiming that any other evidence in the case is "meaningless in light of the DNA evidence that she said comes from another suspect, Rudy Guede, found in Kercher's room." Anne, please don't be negligent like Ross! Please call the Italians immediately and notify them that they are wasting their time and money with these ridiculous hearings because this case has already been solved!!!. Solved long, long ago...


Last edited by Fly by Night on Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:25 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:17 pm   Post subject:    

Video link to Msnbc.com Today Show

http://tinyurl.com/3hw52u
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Offline Fly by Night


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:20 pm   Post subject: Early TimesOnline Evidence Report   

Here's an early TimesOnline report that mentions finding both Knox and Sollecito's prints in the cottage. I recall reading one early report saying that Sollecito's fingerprint was, in fact, found on the inside of Kercher's door. We may be hearing more about this soon.
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Offline Corrina


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:50 pm   Post subject: Shoots and Scores   

Thanks, FBN! I thought I remembered a mention of evidence of Raffaele on the inside of Meredith's door from early on; don't remember where that one was but this link brings up a sponge with Raffaele's and Amanda's dna on it. I don't know; it seems like a lot of critical bits of evidence that were let out early on have come back as positive. If that's his print, he's in trouble. And if that sponge exists, that can't be good for either of the dynamic duo. And thanks, Nicki, for answering my silly question about prints being cross-contaminated. I was just interested to see how difficult it would be for the defense to try and play that angle here.

All righty then. Have a great and safe weekend all. Get outside if it's nice where you are. My man cub has band tonight for the middle school football game and we're off to a corn maze either Saturday or Sunday. Whatever you do, be good. And if you can't be good, come back here on Monday and tell us all about it! :twisted:
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Offline Fly by Night


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:56 pm   Post subject: Is the USA trial system the best in the world?   

Jools wrote:
Video link to Msnbc.com Today Show
http://tinyurl.com/3hw52u


Hmmmm. The implication seems to be that the USA is the only place on the planet where you can get a fair and honest trial (as if that were actually routine in the states). The rest of y'all are just a bunch of sword swinging barbarians. Yes, and the free market economy of the USA is best too because we don't have pesky governmental regulators poking around royally screwing things up. Dream on, but I hardly think American's are quite the shining beacon of all things good to the rest of the world they used to be.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:16 pm   Post subject: Simon said   

FBN wrote:

Quote:
The implication seems to be that the USA is the only place on the planet where you can get a fair and honest trial


Although defense expert Simon did offer that he felt the investigation had been properly conducted by competent authorities.
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:56 pm   Post subject:    

I've just watched the msnbc.com video. Why did Theodore Simon say hopefully she'll be exculpated? Surely he should have said that he hoped the person or persons responsible for Meredith's murder will be found guilty. The assumption seems to be: she's innocent because she's American. No expert should be rooting for somebody accused of sexual assault and murder just because they come from the same country.

The police can't say the knife is definitely the murder weapon because it was not found at the murder scene and it may have been used to make the first two cuts on Meredith's throat. They said it's "compatible" which is not the same as saying it isn't the murder weapon and I've never read the police saying that anywhere.

The American media/Knox PR firm have kicked up a lot of a fuss about there not being " a clear motive" for the murder. It's a huge red herring. Meredith's murder was completely senseless. That doesn't mean that Amanda wasn't involved. Who knows what the motive was? It could have been hatred, jealousy or insanity. I think it was probably all three. Today in England a man was convicted of murdering a shopkeeper in an argument of over an orange.
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Offline Tara


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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:59 am   Post subject: Seattle KIRO News report   

Here's the latest KIRO (CBS) report:

http://www.kirotv.com/news/17621157/detail.html

Here's the video. This page will be updated with more later tonight. They had a report that hasn't been posted on their website yet:

http://www.kirotv.com/index.html
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Offline DLW


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:41 pm

Posts: 623

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 3:51 am   Post subject:    

‘Waiting for DNA‘. Our man Frank in Perugia, has some thoughts.
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Offline Jools


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:01 am   Post subject:    

From The Seattle Times,

Seattle attorney, judge say Amanda Knox is being unfairly treated by court
The Italian defense team working to win the freedom of University of Washington student Amanda Knox is getting a valuable assist from a well-known defense attorney and a judge in Seattle.

http://tinyurl.com/3p9b45
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:47 am   Post subject:    

I read Frank's latest post on Perugia Shock. He doesn't specify what Rudy is guilty of.

"As we know the clues against Rudy are overwhelming (even if doesn't seem that there is a real proof beyond any reasonable doubt that he killed Meredith). Hard to think that a judge could send free someone with so many clues against. The natural psychological state in such cases is usually: 'I condemn you. Then, if you think you are innocent proof it in next degree'."

I believe that Rudy sexually assaulted Meredith on the night of the murder and that he was aided and abetted by Amanda and Raffaele. I don't think he actually he inflicted the fatal wound.

As expected, Frank is much more equivocal about Amanda's and Raffaele's positions.

"It sounds a bit hard to think that a guy and a girl passed, in a few minutes, from a relaxed situation at his place --all Amelie and joints-- to an orgy of killing at her place."

Frank doesn't know that Amanda and Raffaele were in a "relaxed situation", watching Amelie or even smoking joints. Raffaele said in his witness statement that he smoked one joint that evening. He also said witness statement on 5 and 6 November that Amanda wasn't with him.

Despite Raffaele lawyers' best efforts in trying convince people otherwise, there can be no doubt whatsoever that Amanda and Raffaele lied from the very beginning when they said they had called the police before the police arrived.

"Today it was confirmed that the garage video recorded the car of the postal police arriving at 12.26, while Raffaele and Amanda called 112 at 12.51."

The IW was saying on her blog that the time of arrival was disputed and there was no evidence that Amanda and Raffaele were lying, even though, Raffaele admitted he had lied.

Franks surprised me with this comment:

"In sum, the clues of guiltiness there are and they are many. Just the value of them, taken singularly, is pretty low."

His recent sources will not be pleased with that statement. I'm not sure Frank will be too concerned. They have served their purpose. I disagree with Frank completely about the value of the clues being pretty low. If Amanda and Raffaele were completely inncoent and had nothing to do with what happened to Meredith that night, they wouldn't have deliberately and repeatedly lied to the police. There should be a full trial and the prosecution should be given the opportunity to crossexamine them rigorously and thoroughly. Amanda and Raffaele have very tellingly hidden behind their right to silence and wriggled out of giving satisfactory explanations for their lies. They have chosen not to cooperate with the police in their investigation into the sexual assault and brutal murder of Meredith.

Frank has changed his tune about the knife evidence. He was, along with Candace Dempsey and Chris Mellas, claiming that it wouldn't be entered as evidence a few months ago. Now he's saying that it's possibly the most important piece of evidence:

"Except for Meredith's DNA on Raffales's knife, which has always been the main evidence."

"But the DNA on the blade, that one is a heavy, huge evidence. And to increase its importance there's the fact that Raffaele tried to justify it in the improbable way we know."

The fact that Raffaele came up with some silly cock and bull story about Raffaele accidentally pricking Meredith is not lost on Frank either. Is Frank going to jump ship again? I think he will do, if the knife evidence is admitted as evidence. Amanda's parents, Candace, Charlie Wilkes, funnycat et al should not put up the bunting and welcome home banners just yet.
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Offline Tara


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Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

Posts: 1010

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:30 pm   Post subject: Seattle Times Article   

Jools,

Thanks fo the Seattle Times article. I had to reread the following a few times - especially the last paragraph.


SEATTLE TIMES:
Quote:
Back in Seattle, Mellas tries to keep positive, but "I cry every day," she said.

She worries that even if the prosecutor's case against her daughter falls apart, the Italian court may have difficulty saving face and her daughter still could face trial.

She is anguished that only a portion of Knox's prison diaries — those discussing her lovers after the prison officials told her falsely that she tested positive for HIV — were made public. And when they were, they were incorrectly translated to imply she'd had seven lovers in 60 days in Italy instead of over her lifetime.

Also never publicized were her feelings about Kercher.

"Meredith was my friend and I'll never forget how wonderful she was," Knox wrote. "How is anyone else supposed to know what it feels like to feel like your own death was just as close? It was my home after all, and I could have just as likely been found there. ... "


So, Edda Mellas is sharing what Amanda says about Meredith in her diary. Maybe I'm missing something, but it sure sounds like Amanda was writing about HERSELF once again. :shock:
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:46 pm   Post subject: The DNA on the knife   

.

“The knife found at Raffaele’s flat, was given the number 36. In the report, Stefanoni writes that the dna on the handle was extrapolated from what is thought to have been flaking cells (for which there is no specific test) and on the blade from a generic biological substance, since the test for protein in the blood resulted negative. However, the experts make note of the fact that the molecular (structure d) of dna is much more robust that any other type of biological material and so it is no mystery that blood was not found....“About the knife, they (AK and RS’s defence teams d) contest the extremely small quantity of the sample found on the blade, which is believed to have meant that a second extrapolation of dna was not possible.”

From a translation of today's La Nazione done by Damian

Nothing about Meredith's sample matching half of Italy, just that there wasn't enough DNA for a second test.

Remember this knife had been cleaned with bleach.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:55 pm   Post subject:    

The judge asked questions this morning, then lunch break.

The defense experts get their go this afternoon. From various sources, this is just one.

"We are confirming the professionalism and excellence of our service." Lo said Renato Biondo, head of forensic science to this process at Perugia for the murder of Meredith Kercher in which he witnessed the Stefanoni Patrizia biologist, an expert of dna..... So far the biologist responded to questions from the Gup, in particular on how they were detected traces of DNA of Pm and the civil suit.

Subsequently, the forensic expert will answer questions of the experts from those of Raffaele urge, Vincenzo Pasquali and then Francesco Vinci Professor Carlo Torre partisan expert for Amanda Knox and Anna Barbaro doctor appointed by the legal panel of Rudy Guédé .


Google translation of TGcom
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:13 pm   Post subject: Raffaele's DNA on the bra clasp.   

.

... the biologist has confirmed that he treated the findings with the gloves and not with special pliers.. But he ruled out, even by adopting this method, a contagion, given that every finding, according to behavioral code, the gloves were changed.... Pm The classroom has confirmed that hooks on the bra of Meredith dna of the substance detected is quantitatively significant...

Google translation from LA7
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Offline Tara


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Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:17 pm   Post subject: The Catwalk   

It appears the suspects will not be photographed today.

http://tinyurl.com/4mbmux
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Offline Tara


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Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

Posts: 1010

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:33 pm   Post subject: Seattle PI Article   

New article in the Seattle PI...

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/381787_knox04.html
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Offline Bluetit


Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:01 am

Posts: 39

Location: France

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:37 pm   Post subject: Re: Seattle Times Article   

Tara wrote:
Jools,

Thanks fo the Seattle Times article. I had to reread the following a few times - especially the last paragraph.


SEATTLE TIMES:
Quote:
Back in Seattle, Mellas tries to keep positive, but "I cry every day," she said.

(...)

Also never publicized were her feelings about Kercher.

"Meredith was my friend and I'll never forget how wonderful she was," Knox wrote. "How is anyone else supposed to know what it feels like to feel like your own death was just as close? It was my home after all, and I could have just as likely been found there. ... "


So, Edda Mellas is sharing what Amanda says about Meredith in her diary. Maybe I'm missing something, but it sure sounds like Amanda was writing about HERSELF once again. :shock:



Tara, I quite agree with you !

Among other things (from the article) I find objectionable :

"Attorney Anne Bremner and King County Superior Court Judge Mike Heavey" writing to the Italian ambassador in the U.S and to an Italian council !
Inappropriate (not to say boorish) and ignorant behaviour, I think (obviously activated by the Knox-Mellas campaign) ...

And about the "I was there" from AK's mouth :
"Police had translated the statement from English to Italian to mean Knox was at the murder scene that night, Mellas said. Defense attorneys brought in another translator who listened to the tape and said the reference was simply to Knox being at Sollecito's."
Of course ! What else would such a translator be expected to say ? But I am sure the judge (if he is fluent in English) will have read the whole transcript very carefully, and listened to the tape as well. In any case a respected, unbiased translator will be called to testify ... We'll see then.
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 3:15 pm   Post subject: Re: Raffaele's DNA on the bra clasp.   

Brian S. wrote:
.

... the biologist has confirmed that he treated the findings with the gloves and not with special pliers.. But he ruled out, even by adopting this method, a contagion, given that every finding, according to behavioral code, the gloves were changed.... Pm The classroom has confirmed that hooks on the bra of Meredith dna of the substance detected is quantitatively significant...

Google translation from LA7


It is clear that Raffaele's DNA didn't get on Meredith's bra clasp by contamination. The fact that his DNA is on the bra clasp shows that he deliberately touched it and that he unfastened the bra to remove it. It's nonsense that he may have brushed past the bra in the corridor and accidentally touched it. It seems there was a significant amount of his DNA on the bra clasp. Contrary to what others claim, this evidence places him in Meredith's room with Rudy, removing Meredith's bra. It would explain eloquently why he deliberately and repeatedly lied about what he was doing on the night of the murder.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:07 pm   Post subject:    

More from TamTam:

...expert scientific confirmed the presence of DNA in Amanda Knox and Mez on the knife, seized in house call, as the weapon of the crime. Genetic material in nature and not blood found in small amounts because, investigators believe, blade and handle were subjected to cleaning up after the murder...

Google translation of the TamTam story
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:54 pm   Post subject: Putting things in context   

Bluetit wrote:

Quote:
Of course ! What else would such a translator be expected to say ? But I am sure the judge (if he is fluent in English) will have read the whole transcript very carefully, and listened to the tape as well. In any case a respected, unbiased translator will be called to testify ... We'll see then.


In translation, context is everything. Indeed, it is sometimes impossible to translate a sentence or a clause without looking at the context in which it is embedded. My clients often send me snippets from letters or documents and ask me to interpret the meaning of a particular word or string of words. I usually respond that I am happy to do so if they provide more details of the context. This is elementary. One of the limitations of translation software, as we keep seeing over and over, is that it cannot make context-based decisions.

As for human translators and interpreters, no two of them will translate a paragraph in exactly the same way. And this doesn't mean that only one is right and all the others are wrong. Translators are linguistic experts and, as such, no different from other experts. They charge for their services and are not infallible.

It may also be worth noting that this is a self-policing profession. There are organizations and graduate level diplomas, but one doesn't have to go through those hoops to become a translator. And the best translators do not necessarily come out of the schools. There are also sworn translators, who are certified to work for the police and the courts.

In any case, things are a whole lot more complex than google or babelfish!
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:03 pm   Post subject:    

Brian S. wrote:
More from TamTam:

...expert scientific confirmed the presence of DNA in Amanda Knox and Mez on the knife, seized in house call, as the weapon of the crime. Genetic material in nature and not blood found in small amounts because, investigators believe, blade and handle were subjected to cleaning up after the murder...


As I expected, the impartial forensic expert mentioned nothing about Meredith's DNA on the blade matching half the population of Italy or it being only be a 20% match. The expert said it was the "weapon of the crime". Does the expert mean the murder weapon? It has to be the murder weapon as it still had Meredith's skin cells on it despite Amanda's and/or Raffaele's best attempts to clean all traces of DNA off the knife. There must have been a lot of Meredith's DNA on the knife before it was cleaned and judging by the blood that was left on the bed sheet, it's seems highly improbable that it was just used to make the first two cuts on Meredith's neck.

It's interesting that Raffaele's DNA wasn't found on the knife. Surely, there would have been more chance of finding his DNA on the knife as the knife belonged to him and not Amanda. Has it been confirmed that the knife was cleaned by bleach?

The implications of the knife evidence on Amanda Knox are very clear and very serious.

Could someone please tell Candace Dempsey that her title for her latest article "We still have no murder weapon" isn't actually true?


Last edited by The Machine on Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:06 pm   Post subject:    

n/t


Last edited by The Machine on Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Jools


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Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:07 pm   Post subject:    

Talking about Google translator, here is one:

MEREDITH: LAWYER MARESCA, ADVISER CONFIRMED THE MERITS 'RAISE

AGI) - Perugia, Oct. 4. - "I think the hearing today positive, the scientific advisor replied clearly, clearly, has confirmed all the allegations, confirmed the goodness' of relief." E 'comment of Francesco Maresca legal party in civil proceedings for the murder of Meredith Kercher (assists the families of victims) leaving the court in Perugia. In court today and 'the consultant was heard accusation, the biologist Patrizia Stefanoni, called to explain the mode' operation through which he carried out the surveys on the find in the house of crime and in the home of Rudy and Raffaele call Guédé. To clarify why 'the lawyer Maresca held a hearing today that the successful and added: "I think the doctor gave Stefanoni seriousness' on all the investigations, has removed all disputes in recent months had been made" . Called to comment on asserting the defenders of Raffaele urge that you felt during the confrontation with the biologist "erode some significance for the prosecution" the lawyer Maresca replied: "I do not agree, the items on which you and 'the biologist focused elements are confirmed by scientific findings made in the laboratory, then everyone - added Maresca - appreciate them' based on assessments that are not our own, but those of a judge. " (AGI)

http://www.agi.it/perugia/notizie/20081 ... 9-art.html
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:17 pm   Post subject:    

.

Mauri and Maresca disagree on how the day went:

"Not only have supported us - the lawyer said Mauri out of court - but he said in a clear and evident Dr Stefanoni."
Entering the substance of that statement the lawyer added "from November 3 to December 18, the date of the second inspection, the scene of the crime and 'have changed dramatically, it seems there were other access by the local police.
This - he concluded - and 'a fact undeniable. "


Google translation AGI



"I think the hearing today positive, the scientific advisor replied clearly, clearly, has confirmed all the allegations, confirmed the goodness' of relief." E 'comment of Francesco Maresca legal party in civil proceedings for the murder of Meredith Kercher (assists the families of victims) leaving the court in Perugia...."I think the doctor gave Stefanoni seriousness' on all the investigations, has removed all disputes in recent months had been made" . Called to comment on asserting the defenders of Raffaele urge that you felt during the confrontation with the biologist "erode some significance for the prosecution" the lawyer Maresca replied: "I do not agree, the items on which you and 'the biologist focused elements are confirmed by scientific findings made in the laboratory, then everyone - added Maresca - appreciate them' based on assessments that are not our own, but those of a judge

Google translation AGI
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:35 pm   Post subject: Shout-out   

TM wrote:

Quote:
Could someone please tell Candace Dempsey that her title for her latest article "We still have no murder weapon" isn't actually true?


I'm sure she will take your shout-out on board the next time she stops by. :)
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Offline Jools


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

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Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:40 pm   Post subject: Re: Shout-out   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
TM wrote:

Quote:
Could someone please tell Candace Dempsey that her title for her latest article "We still have no murder weapon" isn't actually true?


I'm sure she will take your shout-out on board the next time she stops by. :)




Ha,hahaha,

How about this jewel from the ugly cook...

'Posted by Candace Dempsey at 10/3/08 6:07 p.m.

Thanks, Kelly.

BTW, I can now confirm that Judge Paolo Michele did decide not to hear ear witness Nara, reasoning that she added little to the proceedings.

Those poor people, still spending hours figuring how where she lived, what she might have heard,what stairs she was talking about, all for naught!"
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Offline Scout


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:23 am

Posts: 2

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:49 pm   Post subject: Re: Shout-out   

Jools wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
TM wrote:

Quote:
Could someone please tell Candace Dempsey that her title for her latest article "We still have no murder weapon" isn't actually true?


I'm sure she will take your shout-out on board the next time she stops by. :)




Ha,hahaha,

How about this jewel from the ugly cook...

'Posted by Candace Dempsey at 10/3/08 6:07 p.m.

Thanks, Kelly.

BTW, I can now confirm that Judge Paolo Michele did decide not to hear ear witness Nara, reasoning that she added little to the proceedings.

Those poor people, still spending hours figuring how where she lived, what she might have heard,what stairs she was talking about, all for naught!"


I saw that too.

This poor, poor person is wondering: does this mean that Nara will also not be heard during the actual trials, or only that the judge decided it wasn't relevant at this particular phase?

(ot: Great job on the new forum, Michael! Thank you! And I'm so impressed with the work of Fast Pete and the other contributors over at tjmk!)
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:05 pm   Post subject:    

scout wrote:
This poor, poor person is wondering: does this mean that Nara will also not be heard during the actual trials, or only that the judge decided it wasn't relevant at this particular phase?


I would suggest it is the latter. We haven't heard from Toto, Filomena, nor all the others.

What is obvious from these pretrial stages is that such witnesses which have been called have been called by the defense teams to dispute what they considered as poor quality evidence.

Biscuits went first last week and Kokomani was discredited.

This week was Raffaele's turn to question the DNA evidence.

Will Amanda's team take on Toto next week???

IMHO Nara will make her appearence at the real trial.
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Offline DLW


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:41 pm

Posts: 623

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:09 pm   Post subject:    

‘Mauri and Maresca disagree on how the day went:’….Brian

Well Rudy’s lawyers also seem pretty satisfied with today’s testimony.

‘The consultant accusation Patrizia Stefanoni played today considered a witness by lawyers for lawyers Rudy Guédé Walter Biscotti, Nicodemo Gentile and Vittorio Lombardo "extremely positive. They stressed out by the criminal court after more than eight hours of hearing "and everything is' done - stated the lawyer Biscuits - in complete and comprehensive, Dr. Stefanoni has answered all the questions, the court has conducted personally to an investigation already 'fairly complete, then we as a defense of Rudy, we feel very satisfied with the outcome.’…AGI
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Offline Fly by Night


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:09 pm

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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:20 pm   Post subject: Re: Shout-out   

Scout wrote:
This poor, poor person is wondering: does this mean that Nara will also not be heard during the actual trials, or only that the judge decided it wasn't relevant at this particular phase?


I agree Brian. That dripping 10 cent candle stuck at an angle in that 3 dollar bottle of Chianti has confused the stumble-bumble IW into imagining she is back in Seattle, slurping said wine by candlelight with dinner guests Heavey and Bremner. At this point the court still considers everything, even if witnesses are not called to actually testify for one reason or another. By the way - a "murder weapon" has definitely been delivered to the court.
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Offline Jools


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Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:22 pm   Post subject:    

From Corriere della Sera

Meredith murder: fingerprints photos of Rudy Guédé
04 Oct 18:59 CHRONICLES

PERUGIA - During the preliminary hearing in the trial for the murder of Meredith Kercher prosecutors Giuliano Mignini and Manuela Comodi submitted photographs impression of the palm of Rudy Guédé found on the pillow on which lay Meredith Kercher. The sign seems left in the body of the young and the figure would assume an active role in the murder of Guédé. (Agr)

http://tinyurl.com/49gftg
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Offline Scout


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:23 am

Posts: 2

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:37 pm   Post subject: Re: Shout-out   

Fly by Night wrote:
Scout wrote:
This poor, poor person is wondering: does this mean that Nara will also not be heard during the actual trials, or only that the judge decided it wasn't relevant at this particular phase?


I agree Brian. That dripping 10 cent candle stuck at an angle in that 3 dollar bottle of Chianti has confused the stumble-bumble IW into imagining she is back in Seattle, slurping said wine by candlelight with dinner guests Heavey and Bremner. At this point the court still considers everything, even if witnesses are not called to actually testify for one reason or another. By the way - a "murder weapon" has definitely been delivered to the court.


Thanks, all. That's what I thought.
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Offline Jools


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Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:50 pm   Post subject:    

What ever happened to Christian and Monika? Frank's PS "scoop" witnesses against Rudy Guede.

I would have thought that since this is the real trial for RG those witnesses would testify by now. Wasn't last week specially for RG the time for the witnesses?
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Offline Fly by Night


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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 7:22 pm   Post subject: Not required to appear in court?   

Jools wrote:
What ever happened to Christian and Monika? Frank's PS "scoop" witnesses against Rudy Guede.
I would have thought that since this is the real trial for RG those witnesses would testify by now. Wasn't last week specially for RG the time for the witnesses?


I suspect written testimony is all that is required - witnesses may not need to appear to orally present their testimony, particularly since Rudy's trial is the "short" version. If Rudy is found "guilty" this month he will probably appeal and be granted a second trial but even then I doubt that live testimony from the witness stand would be required in Rudy's version of the trial.
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Offline Bluetit


Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:01 am

Posts: 39

Location: France

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 7:59 pm   Post subject: "I cannot lie. I was there"   

"I was there"

In the blatantly pro-Knox Seattle Times article
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/l ... ox04m.html
we can read this:

" What makes Mellas more optimistic are recent courtroom developments.
In one, Knox's statement "I was there," made in a taped telephone conversation to her parents and referring to being with Sollecito, has been clarified.
Police had translated the statement from English to Italian to mean Knox was at the murder scene that night, Mellas said. Defense attorneys brought in another translator who listened to the tape and said the reference was simply to Knox being at Sollecito's."

Now it appears that one Seattleite wrote in her blog

" Seattle Times confirms that Judge Michele has accepted Knox's explanation for the 'I cannot lie. I was there,' comment. Her defense team argued that she meant she was at Raffaele's, not at the house of horrors, and that her remarks were mistranslated and taken out of context."

The first sentence does not seem (to me, at any rate) to be an accurate paraphrase of the ST passage ... Neither the ST nor any other source that I know of has said that the Knox defence claim has been "accepted" by the judge. Unless "accept" just means "hear" or "allow to be included in the official file" ?

What do you make of it ?

Perhaps the Seattle blogger understood Edda Mellas's "has been clarified" to mean "has been explained away, and the judge believed our explanation" ? Well, perhaps she did. But it smells a bit fishy to me.

Any recent news about "I was there" from other, unbiased sources ?
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Offline Jools


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 8:07 pm   Post subject: Re: Not required to appear in court?   

Fly by Night wrote:
Jools wrote:
What ever happened to Christian and Monika? Frank's PS "scoop" witnesses against Rudy Guede.
I would have thought that since this is the real trial for RG those witnesses would testify by now. Wasn't last week specially for RG the time for the witnesses?


I suspect written testimony is all that is required - witnesses may not need to appear to orally present their testimony, particularly since Rudy's trial is the "short" version. If Rudy is found "guilty" this month he will probably appeal and be granted a second trial but even then I doubt that live testimony from the witness stand would be required in Rudy's version of the trial.


Hi FBN,

Maybe you are right, is just that I was thinking if the PM witness Momi failed... why don't go for Christian & Monika surely they are a bigger damage to RG. Maybe this was another "scoop" that never was, who knows.
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Offline Tara


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Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

Posts: 1010

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 8:33 pm   Post subject: Ed or Mike?   

From the Seattle PI article by Levi Pulkkinen:

Quote:
Speaking Friday, Bremner said she was brought in to aid Knox by a group of supporters in the Seattle area. Among them, she said, is former King County Superior Court Judge Ed Heavey and leaders at Seattle Prep High School, from which Knox graduated.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/381787_knox04.html

From the Seattle Times article by Nancy Bartley:

Quote:
Attorney Anne Bremner and King County Superior Court Judge Mike Heavey are among those who believe the 21-year-old exchange student is being treated unfairly by an Italian court, which is weighing her guilt in the slaying of her roommate last year in Perugia, Italy.


http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/l ... ox04m.html


Which "Heavey" is it?
:roll:
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Offline Bluetit


Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:01 am

Posts: 39

Location: France

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:09 pm   Post subject: Re: Ed or Mike?   

Tara wrote:
From the Seattle PI article by Levi Pulkkinen:

Quote:
... former King County Superior Court Judge Ed Heavey ...

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/381787_knox04.html

From the Seattle Times article by Nancy Bartley:

Quote:
King County Superior Court Judge Mike Heavey ...

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/l ... ox04m.html


Which "Heavey" is it? [/b] :roll:



Bravo, Hawkeye ![b]
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Offline indie


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 1:22 am   Post subject:    

Quote:
The computer folly
Another incredible story surrounds the way investigators handled the computer hard drives they took into evidence. These drives were removed from computers belonging to Meredith Kercher, Amanda Knox, and Raffaele Sollecito.
Somehow the police hooked all of them up wrong and burned out the circuit boards that control the disks.
That of course made the drives unreadable, so they passed them on to a professor at a technical institute. He tried to revive the hard drives by replacing the circuit boards. But if you look on the Internet, you'll see that this is a big no-no. These circuit boards are specific, not just by model but by factory and production run. Unless you happen to get lucky, replacing them won't work and sometimes makes matters worse.
And that is exactly what happened in this case. Only after these hard drives were thoroughly messed up did the authorities send them to a company that specializes in data recovery and has people who know what they are doing. This company was able to recover the contents of two of the hard drives, but the one from Amanda's computer was scrambled, and the company couldn't recover the data.
That is unfortunate for Amanda, because her defense team wants access to the evidence on her computer. The prosecution is trying to argue that Amanda did not get along with Meredith Kercher, but photographs and videos on Amanda's hard drive would show otherwise.
At this point, it looks as if those photos will never been seen. The only remaining option is to send the drive to Toshiba, the manufacturer. This would cost many thousands of dollars, but Amanda's family is willing to shoulder the cost. Unfortunately, the Italian court has denied their request to do this.
So as of now, the hard drive is in police custody, in a partly dismantled condition, and very likely holding evidence that could help clear Amanda Knox.



The above quote is from Michael's link http://www.kirotv.com/news/17611206/detail.html


This is news to me. I for some reason thought the only computer that got messed up was Raffaele's.
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Offline FinnMacCool


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 9:19 am   Post subject:    

Here's the latest from the Corriere della Sera.

Evidence suggests that all three were there, and were involved in an attempted clean-up of the crime scene.
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 10:00 am   Post subject:    

FinnMacCool wrote:
Here's the latest from the Corriere della Sera.

Evidence suggests that all three were there, and were involved in an attempted clean-up of the crime scene.


"They argue that the DNA on the hook of the bra is the result of contamination, declare that the track mixed Amanda and Meredith found on the knife Raffaele does not prove that it is the weapon of the crime."

Raffaele's lawyers' ridiculous theory that Raffaele's DNA got onto bra clasp by contamination has been blown out of the water. Patrizia Stefanoni explained that the forensic police changed gloves which each new finding. It's s damning piece of evidence which puts him in Meredith's room on the night of the murder, removing Meredith's bra.

Amanda's DNA on the handle of the knife found at Raffaele's apartment and Meredith's DNA found on the blade incriminates both of them. It would seem that Amanda inflicted the fatal wound and Raffaele allowed her to use his knife and put it back in his kitchen. The reason that Meredith's DNA was still on the knife was that it was stuck in a groove.

Frank from Perugia Shock asked the forensic scientists about yestersay's hearing:

",... their answer was that all scientific results have been confirmed, included, we should deduct, Meredith's DNA.
Not very satisfying a general answer to a detailed question. But that's what we got."
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 12:11 pm   Post subject:    

TM wrote:
Frank from Perugia Shock asked the forensic scientists about yestersay's hearing:

",... their answer was that all scientific results have been confirmed, included, we should deduct, Meredith's DNA.
Not very satisfying a general answer to a detailed question. But that's what we got."



From the Corriere story:

Why - Stefanoni says - for each finding we used a different pair of gloves, can testify as experts chosen defense. And since the DNA does not fly, it is impossible that the findings have been altered.



PERUGIA - Forensic science is clear: the traces found on the scene of the crime nailed irretrievably Amanda Knox, and Raffaele call Rudy Guédé to the killing of Meredith Kercher. And the medico-legal advisers of the defenses of the three defendants can not blame incrinare the picture. Yesterday, the confrontation in front of the classroom GUP Paolo Micheli turns into a boomerang for lawyers to urge Raffaele who had very strong willed believe they can discredit the methodology used for surveying the scene of the crime.

Responsible Patrizia Stefanoni, 40 years, a degree in Biological Sciences and former researcher in genetics, from 2000 police and now technical director-biologist-Genetics Section of the Forensics Science in Rome that can decisively reject the comments of scientific defense . And especially on the GUP Paolo Micheli that leads steadily audiences one of the most delicate matter of judicial crime of Perugia.....


Google translation of La Reppublica
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Offline indie


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 1:18 pm   Post subject:    

FinnMacCool wrote:
Here's the latest from the Corriere della Sera.

Evidence suggests that all three were there, and were involved in an attempted clean-up of the crime scene.



So far in these proceedings we have not heard about any mop DNA evidence, correct? If the mop was part of the cleanup how isn't it full of Meredith's DNA. Seems like it would have been impossible to remove all traces of blood with it's extensive square surface.

As for the bra clasp, it does bother me a bit that it was not included in the first crime scene sweep/analysis. I can sort of understand how they got the bra to the lab and realized a piece was missing but why it wasn't seen when they initially bagged the bra seems a bit careless. Or why wasn't the clasp seen on the floor and taken to the lab based on the fact that bra clasps on a floor are unusual.
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 1:52 pm   Post subject:    

indie wrote:
So far in these proceedings we have not heard about any mop DNA evidence, correct? If the mop was part of the cleanup how isn't it full of Meredith's DNA. Seems like it would have been impossible to remove all traces of blood with it's extensive square surface.


The mop will have been absolutley soaked in bleach. Incidentally, I don't know what type of mop it was, so maybe there wasn't an extensive square surface. Maybe, they threw the sponge part of the mop away. There was obviously a clean up after the murder to remove the trail of bloody footprints that led up to the one on the blue bathmat. Amanda and Raffaele took the bucket and mop and the knife which is almost certainly the murder weapon to Raffaele's apartment. The knife was cleaned with bleach, but unfortunatley for Amanda, not well enough to remove her and Meredith's DNA.

indie wrote:
As for the bra clasp, it does bother me a bit that it was not included in the first crime scene sweep/analysis. I can sort of understand how they got the bra to the lab and realized a piece was missing but why it wasn't seen when they initially bagged the bra seems a bit careless. Or why wasn't the clasp seen on the floor and taken to the lab based on the fact that bra clasps on a floor are unusual.


The important point is that they found the bra clasp when they went back for it. Raffaele didn't go back to Meredith's rooom during that time, so he couldn't have put his DNA on it. It also has a significant amount of DNA on it. Meredith was sexually assaulted that evening. Her bra was cut with a knife. Raffaele must have cut Meredith's bra with a knife in order to take it off.
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:01 pm   Post subject:    

indie wrote:
FinnMacCool wrote:
Here's the latest from the Corriere della Sera.

Evidence suggests that all three were there, and were involved in an attempted clean-up of the crime scene.


Indie,


So far in these proceedings we have not heard about any mop DNA evidence, correct? If the mop was part of the cleanup how isn't it full of Meredith's DNA. Seems like it would have been impossible to remove all traces of blood with it's extensive square surface.

As for the bra clasp, it does bother me a bit that it was not included in the first crime scene sweep/analysis. I can sort of understand how they got the bra to the lab and realized a piece was missing but why it wasn't seen when they initially bagged the bra seems a bit careless. Or why wasn't the clasp seen on the floor and taken to the lab based on the fact that bra clasps on a floor are unusual.



Indie,

I think there is a reason the mop has not yet come into play. Just like the pipes from Raffaele's sink and various other bloodstained rags or tissues.

The priorities so far are the murder charges and all the court challenges have been related to them.

Crime scene staging is another charge faced by Raffaele and Amanda.

Scientifica are said to have 167?????? pieces of forensic evidence.

I think the mop and other evidence will arise in connection with the staging and the bigger picture surrounding the murder.

But to be guilty of staging, they must first be indicted on the murder charge, otherwise they can probably claim they just had a clean-up with the mop.

I don't think the GUP is gonna disallow the bra clasp or the knife. The arguments concerning their validity will doubtless carry on at the full trial, but at that stage all the evidence is up before the court, not just certain individual pieces of evidence which the defenses have chosen to dispute in isolation at the pre-trial.
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Offline indie


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:37 pm   Post subject:    

Well Brian, I suppose your post fits the old cliche, "first things, first". ;)
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 5:16 pm   Post subject: More info   

TM wrote:

Quote:
Frank from Perugia Shock asked the forensic scientists about yesterday's hearing:

",... their answer was that all scientific results have been confirmed, included, we should deduct, Meredith's DNA.
Not very satisfying a general answer to a detailed question. But that's what we got."


For a more complete answer, see Damian's translation of CU article. This is one of the local/regional sources that Frank is apparently in competition with and therefore rejects as unreliable and driven by information from the prosecution.


http://tinyurl.com/3hmua7
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 5:21 pm   Post subject:    

Mignini Talks to TG5 journalist.

In the blank box where you see cerca video, type Meredith Kercher and you should get a series of videos to play, click on the link that says: Meredith, la guerra del dna...

http://www.video.mediaset.it/
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:56 pm   Post subject:    

I find it faintly amusing how the defence are desperately trying their hardest to get all the forensic evidence thrown out.
I'm glad they have failed.
The police stated from day one of this case that the murder scene was an evidence rich zone.
I am very much looking forward to Sollecitos explanation as to why he stated that he'd pricked Meredith with the knife while cooking at his apartment and embellishing his story in further stating he apologised to Meredith for doing so and that she was OK about it.
This when it is known that Meredith had never visited his apartment.
I wonder how he and his defence will try and squirm out of this little howler.
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 10:14 pm   Post subject:    

Video link:

Scientific Police Patrizia Stefanoni.

http://tinyurl.com/4pne8f
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 10:50 pm   Post subject:    

DeathFish 2000 wrote:
I find it faintly amusing how the defence are desperately trying their hardest to get all the forensic evidence thrown out.
I'm glad they have failed.
The police stated from day one of this case that the murder scene was an evidence rich zone.
I am very much looking forward to Sollecitos explanation as to why he stated that he'd pricked Meredith with the knife while cooking at his apartment and embellishing his story in further stating he apologised to Meredith for doing so and that she was OK about it.
This when it is known that Meredith had never visited his apartment.
I wonder how he and his defence will try and squirm out of this little howler.


I'm looking forward to Raffaele's explanation about why he lied about the imaginary party that he and Amanda went to on the night of the murder. He told this story to a British journalist, so he can't claim he was psychologically tortured by the police. Then his explanation for changing his alibi completely and saying he was actually at his apartment with Amanda. I'd like him to then explain why he gave a third version of what he did on the night of the murder. This version doesn't include Amanda because she apparently wasn't with him. However, his third version of what he was doing on the night of the murder wasn't true either. He wasn't surfing the Internet for two hours between 11 pm and 1 am, his father didn't call him at 11pm, and he didn't sleep untl 10 am the next day. It's highly significant that he chose to lie to the police when given another opportunity to tell the truth after admitting to the police that he had told them a load of rubbish. He deliberatley spun an intricate web of lies. As with his fairytale about accidentally pricking Meredith with a knife while cooking at his apartment, he embellished his third version with specific details which weren't true.

The only plausible explanation for all these lies is that he was involved in Meredith's murder. There is no other explanation. He's a cunning liar who repeatedly replaced one false alibi with another one. He repeated lies have destroyed his credibility. No sane person would believe anything he says about the case.
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Offline indie


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:30 am   Post subject:    

Jools wrote:
Video link:

Scientific Police Patrizia Stefanoni.

http://tinyurl.com/4pne8f




:idea: Next on Google's list... making subtitles for foreign news feeds. :idea:

Though I did not know what she was saying her body language and speech tone did communicate competence and confidence.
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:52 am   Post subject:    

More on the DNA:

An involuntary footstep while they were walking. Maybe with a shoe or shoe covering which had walked in other rooms where Raffaele Sollecito’s dna was by chance. “Like outside the entrance to the cottage (where agents and investigators put on shoe coverings) where Raffaele and others could have spat.” Luca Maori and Giulia Bongiorno are convinced that the bra clasp was contaminated. “It’s not that we’re convinced”, explains Maori, “it’s simply part of the facts. We have the proof.” Maori puts forward the hypothesis of a ‘dirty’ foot that accidentally moved the bra clasp. In so much as, at a certain point, after it was first discovered, it was then lost.....

“On the box in which the knife was sent to the fornsic police were the words ‘Balestra’.” says Luciano Ghirga. (…d) Amanda’s defence has focused on the small amount of Amanda’s dna (on the handle) and Meredith’s (on the blade) on the presumed murder weapon found at Raffaele’s house. The prosecution is certain the knife was cleaned with bleach. However, the knife is said to have been kept in a box for bags, wallets or shoes, before it was sent to the forensic police, upon which was written the name of the famous stylist from Trieste. A box which in turn, was kept at Sollecito’s appartment. Anything could have been in that box previously; personal objects, ornaments, Amanda’s things. And so contamiantion in this case too, is more than likely....



More contained in the CU translation at Damians blog
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:03 pm   Post subject:    

A comment responding to a post of mine at Perugia Shock may help to shed some light on recent court events:

One should make clear that in the continental system it's not so much about "allowing" or "disallowing" evidence, compared to the US and UK system. Instead, the judges are trusted to interpret and weighten the evidence correctly. So for example the Albanian witness will not be "disallowed", but the judge will nevertheless give him low credibility, if any.

If evidence is formally disallowed, this is exceptional and should be seen as a slap on the wrist - as it happened for the "confession", where the interrogation without a lawyer was an absolutely no-no.

Same could however happen for the DNA on the knife. Someone more familar with the Italian system might tell us whether a retest of the DNA is mandatory in Italy - as I know it is in some other countries. Should this be the case, and should the probe have been too small for a second test, that could indeed mean that the knife evidence is out once and for all.
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:04 pm   Post subject:    

Brian S. wrote:
More on the DNA:

An involuntary footstep while they were walking. Maybe with a shoe or shoe covering which had walked in other rooms where Raffaele Sollecito’s dna was by chance. “Like outside the entrance to the cottage (where agents and investigators put on shoe coverings) where Raffaele and others could have spat.” Luca Maori and Giulia Bongiorno are convinced that the bra clasp was contaminated. “It’s not that we’re convinced”, explains Maori, “it’s simply part of the facts. We have the proof.” Maori puts forward the hypothesis of a ‘dirty’ foot that accidentally moved the bra clasp. In so much as, at a certain point, after it was first discovered, it was then lost.....

“On the box in which the knife was sent to the fornsic police were the words ‘Balestra’.” says Luciano Ghirga. (…d) Amanda’s defence has focused on the small amount of Amanda’s dna (on the handle) and Meredith’s (on the blade) on the presumed murder weapon found at Raffaele’s house. The prosecution is certain the knife was cleaned with bleach. However, the knife is said to have been kept in a box for bags, wallets or shoes, before it was sent to the forensic police, upon which was written the name of the famous stylist from Trieste. A box which in turn, was kept at Sollecito’s appartment. Anything could have been in that box previously; personal objects, ornaments, Amanda’s things. And so contamiantion in this case too, is more than likely....



More contained in the CU translation at Damians blog


Does it means that they are now no longer arguing the presence of Meredith's DNA on the blade, but rather Amanda's on the handle? Since the box was at Sollecito where Meredith never went...
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:13 pm   Post subject:    

Beginning on the 18th, a big week which should point the way forward for RS and AK whilst Rudy's fate will be decided:


...the word now goes to Prosecutor. Saturday, 18, the date of next hearing (to be held in the new seat of the court), prosecutors Giuliano Mignini and Manuela Comfortable held their indictment. Rebuilding moment to moment the events of the night to Ognissanti in which the poor Mez, according to the allegations to the three suspects, was raped, slain and allowed to suffocate in his blood. I am spiegaranno because, given the evidence collected in more than seven months of closed investigations, according to their Raffaele, Rudy and Amanda are guilty.

On 20, in addition to concluding pm, will be the turn of the civil parties (lawyers of the family Kercher and Diya Patrick Lumumba, the Congolese musician arrested for murder and released 14 days later). On 21 will be the day of defense of Amanda, 22 is fixed of the pleading for Maori Raffaele and 24 of the defender Bongiorno, also for the newly graduated Pugliese, the same day, and the next, the lawyers speak of Guédé.

The decisions of GUP Micheli are waiting for Monday 27 after the replicas: the court will issue the ruling for the abbreviated rite of Guédé and determine whether the two ex-girlfriend will be judged by the Court of Assizes for murder and rape.



Google translation from La Nazione
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:30 pm   Post subject:    

.

The prosecution is certain the knife was cleaned with bleach. However, the knife is said to have been kept in a box for bags, wallets or shoes....


A very special kitchen knife, bleached (almost)clean and kept separate from the rest of the kitchen utensils??
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Offline Kermit


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:29 pm   Post subject: EXHIBIT 36   

A couple of days late, here's an image from La Nazione on Saturday, of "Exhibit 36", of four angles of the Double DNA Knife. The resolution isn't great and I honestly don't know how to interpret it. It is a new view, in the sense that up until now we have only seen the upper right image with the "C" tag, and that, only in black and white. In fact, I thought that the knife was called Item "C". However, it seems that C, D, and the other letters refer to specific findings on the handle and blade of the knife.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:49 pm   Post subject: I keep my forks in my sock drawer   

Brian S. cited:
Quote:
On the box in which the knife was sent to the fornsic police were the words ‘Balestra’.” says Luciano Ghirga. (…d) Amanda’s defence has focused on the small amount of Amanda’s dna (on the handle) and Meredith’s (on the blade) on the presumed murder weapon found at Raffaele’s house. The prosecution is certain the knife was cleaned with bleach. However, the knife is said to have been kept in a box for bags, wallets or shoes, before it was sent to the forensic police, upon which was written the name of the famous stylist from Trieste. A box which in turn, was kept at Sollecito’s appartment. Anything could have been in that box previously; personal objects, ornaments, Amanda’s things. And so contamiantion in this case too, is more than likely....


Nicki wrote:

Quote:
Does it mean that they are now no longer arguing the presence of Meredith's DNA on the blade, but rather Amanda's on the handle? Since the box was at Sollecito where Meredith never went...


Regardless of what might have been in this box where the knife was found, how did the knife get into this box? So it was cleaned with bleach and then placed in a box with other items? Were the utensil drawer and knife block too full? What happens now to the assertion that AKs DNA is on the handle because she did a lot of cooking there in the two-week period leading up to Nov 1? Was the knife being used for cooking, then being bleached and put away in a shoe box after each use or just the one time? Were other kitchen utensils found in other garment boxes located inside the apartment?
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:03 pm   Post subject: Knife in the shoebox   

Nicki wrote:

Quote:
Does it means that they are now no longer arguing the presence of Meredith's DNA on the blade, but rather Amanda's on the handle? Since the box was at Sollecito where Meredith never went...


It could mean that Raffaele is being hung out to dry. Hmmm.... Meredith's DNA on the blade of a knife cleaned with bleach and stashed away in a shoe box along with some of Amanda's things. Hey, we have another instance of possible accidental contamination.

This explanation is being put forth as a plausible alternative reason for AK's DNA on the handle and also, I think, to suggest that someone other than Amanda used this knife as a weapon before bleaching it and then stashing it in a box containing a few of his favorite things.

Or, alternatively, is it being suggested that the police, after selecting this knife from among others in the kitchen drawer and before testing it, placed it for safekeeping in the first shoe box they came across and then let it sit there for a few days before hauling it away? Did they pick it up with their bare hands?
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Offline Kermit


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:17 pm   Post subject: Re: Knife in the shoebox   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Hey, we have another instance of possible accidental contamination.

This explanation is being put forth as a plausible alternative reason for AK's DNA on the handle and also, I think, to suggest that someone other than Amanda used this knife as a weapon before bleaching it and then stashing it in a box containing a few of his favorite things.


I think the different defence teams, family members and assorted hangers-on, PR reps, and support groups threw Occam's Razor out the window a long time ago, and now their objective is simply "plausible deniability", if possible, and failing that, then simple unconvincing deniability.

Thank goodness that, as per Brian's explanation, ALL evidence is evidence, and it's the judge who decides its relevance and weight in deciding guilt or innocence.
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:19 pm   Post subject:    

Kermit,
I think you commented before on this weapon, hardly a potato peeler is it?
What I find equally as ludicrous as the desperate attempts to have all the damning forensic evidence against the murder suspects thrown out of court, is Curt Knox when describing Sollecitos morbid fascination with knives.
He said "I collect coins" and explained Sollecitos knife collection being simply "art pieces".
It left me wondering if Curt carried his coin collection jangling away in his pockets everywhere he went, like his fellow art collector who never went anywhere without at least one of his "art pieces" in his pocket - and indeed was armed with one of his art pieces at the murder scene of his own admission.


Last edited by DeathFish 2000 on Tue Oct 07, 2008 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:30 pm   Post subject:    

Heavy duty emotion on the front page of the Umbria Journal today:

Umbria Journal
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Offline Fly by Night


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:53 pm   Post subject: Re: Knife in the shoebox   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Nicki wrote:

Quote:
Does it means that they are now no longer arguing the presence of Meredith's DNA on the blade, but rather Amanda's on the handle? Since the box was at Sollecito where Meredith never went...


It could mean that Raffaele is being hung out to dry. Hmmm.... Meredith's DNA on the blade of a knife cleaned with bleach and stashed away in a shoe box along with some of Amanda's things. Hey, we have another instance of possible accidental contamination.

This explanation is being put forth as a plausible alternative reason for AK's DNA on the handle and also, I think, to suggest that someone other than Amanda used this knife as a weapon before bleaching it and then stashing it in a box containing a few of his favorite things.

Or, alternatively, is it being suggested that the police, after selecting this knife from among others in the kitchen drawer and before testing it, placed it for safekeeping in the first shoe box they came across and then let it sit there for a few days before hauling it away? Did they pick it up with their bare hands?


It seems the court and all its lawyers must accept that Meredith's DNA (and not just "20%" of it, or half of Italy's either :lol:) is on that knife. That being the case, Knox and Sollectio have a HUGE monkey on their backs, regardless of any other contamination claims they try to move forward. And note how the "explanations" for how DNA got where it was found keep changing. We have heard things like: 1. Amanda wore Meredith's bra and Raffaele took it off her, 2. Raffaele touched it while it was in the laundry, 3. Raffaele accidentally poked Meredith with the knife while cooking in his kitchen, 4. Raffaele pressed the knife into Amanda's hand as she slept to frame her - all of this, among other things, have been stated for the record.

Now it seems that all of those weak explanations have been abandoned in favor of one final fallback: this police bungling and contamination theory that must operate on a grand scale that covers everything from start to finish; from an inability to log the correct times of calls/visits to breaking into crime scenes by smashing windows with feet to walking all over evidence to blatant mishandling in both Perugia and Rome to inventing wildly crazy or impossible scenarios to save face (or just for the hell of it) to an entirely corrupt legal system and government top to bottom, inside out. Wow - things must be really, really bad in Italy. But exactly how much of this can a reasonable mind be expected to tolerate before saying enough is enough - you are taking this way too far? I'm sorry - at some point a reasonable mind has to seriously consider the likelihood that each of these suspects is, in fact, guilty and the prosecution has it right, after all!

A bleached knife with Meredith's DNA on it found hidden in a box at Raffaele's is actually more like a gorilla on their backs. Someone must be accountable for that alone, so good luck with blaming everything on contamination and bungling - it's no substitute for a consistent and viable alibi.
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Offline Kermit


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:59 pm   Post subject: Re: Knife in the shoebox   

Fly by Night wrote:
Now it seems that all of those weak explanations have been abandoned in favor of one final fallback: this police bungling and contamination theory that must operate on a grand scale that covers everything from start to finish


It's all Mignini's fault :lol:

I'm out, ciao...
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:13 pm   Post subject: Is Occam's razor disposable?   

Kermit wrote:

Quote:
I think the different defence teams, family members and assorted hangers-on, PR reps, and support groups threw Occam's Razor out the window a long time ago, and now their objective is simply "plausible deniability", if possible, and failing that, then simple unconvincing deniability.


Ha ha! I was thinking about Occam's razor this morning too. I was thinking that, unless it is disposable with plenty of recharges, it would become very dull indeed from all the slicing needed to whittle this side of the equation down to something simple and elegant, with prima facie truth value.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:14 pm   Post subject: Independent   

In depth article in the Independent:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 30873.html

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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:18 pm   Post subject:    

The knife with Amanda's DNA On the handle and Meredith's DNA was kept/hidden in a box at Raffaele's apartment. The same knife that Raffaele claimed he accidentally pricked Meredith with when he was cooking that time when Meredith wasn't at his apartment. He just happened to keep/hide the knife in a box. Does ANYONE seriously believe that Amanda and Raffaele were not involved in Meredith's murder?
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:33 pm   Post subject: Still this Percentage Twaddle   

This from Candace Dempsey:

Posted by Candace Dempsey at 10/6/08 6:12 a.m.


"What is the percentage of match for Meredith on the DNA on the knife? It doesn't matter if they found DNA and handled it right unless it matches her."

Obviously, she still doesn't get it and I'm left wondering why, since it isn't rocket science.

There is no such thing as 'percentage'. It is either Meredith's DNA or it isn't!!!

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Offline Fly by Night


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:58 pm   Post subject: Re: Still this Percentage Twaddle   

Michael wrote:
This from Candace Dempsey:

Posted by Candace Dempsey at 10/6/08 6:12 a.m.
"What is the percentage of match for Meredith on the DNA on the knife? It doesn't matter if they found DNA and handled it right unless it matches her."
Obviously, she still doesn't get it and I'm left wondering why, since it isn't rocket science.
There is no such thing as 'percentage'. It is either Meredith's DNA or it isn't!!!


I hate to admit it, but this time IW has a legitimate excuse for being a dingbat: it's JoeT's hypnotic eyes...
Case in point: Barbie Nadeau was so smitten that she forgot all about why she was in Perugia and started writing articles like this.
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:26 pm   Post subject: Re: Still this Percentage Twaddle   

Michael wrote:
This from Candace Dempsey:

Posted by Candace Dempsey at 10/6/08 6:12 a.m.


"What is the percentage of match for Meredith on the DNA on the knife? It doesn't matter if they found DNA and handled it right unless it matches her."

Obviously, she still doesn't get it and I'm left wondering why, since it isn't rocket science.

There is no such thing as 'percentage'. It is either Meredith's DNA or it isn't!!!


I saw Candace Dempsey's post and had to laugh at her reasoning. The forensic scientists tested the DNA on the knife's blade and said it's Meredith's. I don't understand why she finds that so difficult to understand. Renato Biondo said, “We are confirming the reliability of the information collected from the scene of the crime and at the same time, the professionalism and excellence of our work.”

There was no contamination and the crime scene wasn't "violated ". The DNA evidence places all three suspects at the cottage on the night of the murder. The knife evidence implicates both Amanda and Raffaele. The murder weapon was cleaned and hidden in a box at Raffaele's apartment which demonstrates Raffaele's complicity and the double DNA on the knife points to Amanda inflicting the fatal wound.
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Offline Fly by Night


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:19 pm   Post subject: Re: I keep my forks in my sock drawer   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Brian S. cited:
Quote:
On the box in which the knife was sent to the fornsic police were the words ‘Balestra’.” says Luciano Ghirga. (…d) Amanda’s defence has focused on the small amount of Amanda’s dna (on the handle) and Meredith’s (on the blade) on the presumed murder weapon found at Raffaele’s house. The prosecution is certain the knife was cleaned with bleach. However, the knife is said to have been kept in a box for bags, wallets or shoes, before it was sent to the forensic police, upon which was written the name of the famous stylist from Trieste. A box which in turn, was kept at Sollecito’s appartment. Anything could have been in that box previously; personal objects, ornaments, Amanda’s things. And so contamiantion in this case too, is more than likely....


Regardless of what might have been in this box where the knife was found, how did the knife get into this box?


Good question. It's safe to say that since both the knife and the box it was hidden in were delivered to the forensic police that everything was examined for prints and dna. If the knife was the only place (box & contents included) that Amanda's dna was identified it would be nearly impossible to make the claim of contamination stick, but I reckon it's just another long shot that Ghirga must take.
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:52 pm   Post subject:    

From Il Messaggero Umbria edition page 41.

(Google Translator)

Monday 06 October 2008 Close
Murder of Meredith / After the hearing on DNA, it still exacerbates the position of the two engaged
New interceptions from prison
Become proof dialogue between Amanda and her mother: "It is true, that night I was in the house "
ITALO of CARMIGNANI
E VANNA UGOLINO

PERUGIA - From the smallest of the codes comes the biggest victory for the charges against Rudy marching Guédé, Amada Knox and Raffaele call because they have taken part all'omicidio of English student Meredith Kercher. But not only get the DNA from tiny step toward winning the case. If two days ago on charges, supported by Giuliano Mignini and Manuela Comfortable, was able to demonstrate before the court that, with good chances, Amanda challenge the murder weapon and that Raffaele pulled the bra of Mez, and that both were on place of the crime, there's more to get the liability declared by justice.
Among the acts of Judge Paolo Micheli, the court committed in the first trial against the alleged murderers of Mez, that under the court shortened to Rudy and trial for the other two are also finite interceptions in prison between the accused and families.
In recent interception Amanda speaks mainly of her condition in prison is like huts and what he is not the sun, but it is another step what has turned the interest of police investigators hours under the command of manager Monica Napoleoni.
And the move sounds like: "I was there that night in the house," says in the interview room of the prison huts, sitting in front of parents who came from Seattle, without knowing to be intercepted by the police.
When someone writes knowing that the investigators will read your letter is much more cautious: "The night of the murder Mez - instead writes in a sort of diary, seized in the cell - was to call in his apartment. We had smoked marijuana, then we have fallen asleep. I do not remember what happened, unless it was to go from Raffaele Meredith and kill her. " The revival of mutual accusations between Amanda and Raffaele now, rereading the cards procedural, has become a boomerang. Because when a ago to know that it offended those accusations (Raffaele at one point says he does not remember if Amanda was at home with him that night) the versions are recomposed suffered as a sort pact without the possibility of exit.
On the other hand, so be bound to one another brought them to better deal with the investigation and then be a procedural defeat. With the dna of Raffel found on the bra hook of Mez (surely), the engineer is placed in the room without doubt of the crime even though he says otherwise. It argued that that night the two were together now becomes a trap with no exit. DNA and other scientific evidence, statements and deductions will mark the next episode of the scheduled Oct. 25 start when the contradiction between the prosecution and defense.
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:47 pm   Post subject:    

Jools wrote:
From Il Messaggero Umbria edition page 41.

"I was there that night in the house," says in the interview room of the prison huts, sitting in front of parents who came from Seattle, without knowing to be intercepted by the police.


Is the newspaper referring to a new conversation between Amanda and her parents or to the conversation that was intercepted last year when Amanda said that she couldn't lie because she was there? It seems to be a new conversation if the quotes are accurate and the conversation involved both parents. If Amanda did actually say "house" she must have been referring to the cottage rather than Raffaele's apartment.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:32 pm   Post subject:    

The Machine wrote:
Jools wrote:
From Il Messaggero Umbria edition page 41.

"I was there that night in the house," says in the interview room of the prison huts, sitting in front of parents who came from Seattle, without knowing to be intercepted by the police.


Is the newspaper referring to a new conversation between Amanda and her parents or to the conversation that was intercepted last year when Amanda said that she couldn't lie because she was there? It seems to be a new conversation if the quotes are accurate and the conversation involved both parents. If Amanda did actually say "house" she must have been referring to the cottage rather than Raffaele's apartment.


Jools: great job again!
TM:: although it is not clearly stated my impression from reading the original Italian text is that they are referring to last year interception, when she wasn't aware that the conversations were tapped. As a matter of fact, when in her diary she claims she spent the night at Sollecito's she refers to Raffaele's apartment, not "the house". And how could she? Raffaele lives in an apartment, not in a house.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:53 pm   Post subject: New Newsweek Article   

New Newsweek article by Barbie Nadeau called 'Murder Marketing' focusing on the merchandising of 'Free Amanda' Merchandise by the Knox Camp:

http://www.newsweek.com/id/162671

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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:09 pm   Post subject: Re: New Newsweek Article   

Michael wrote:
New Newsweek article by Barbie Nadeau called 'Murder Marketing' focusing on the merchandising of 'Free Amanda' Merchandise by the Knox Camp:

http://www.newsweek.com/id/162671


It seems that Barbie doesn't think there is any chance of Amanda being found innocent:

But no matter what Knox's supporters may believe at home, there is little chance those efforts will have any impact in Perugia. In this complex "whodunit" case, freeing Amanda Knox seems an unlikely outcome.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:44 pm   Post subject: Murder marketing   

Thanks for the link to the latest Newsweek treatment. The title is interesting, and points to what bothers many observers about the way this case is being handled, not by the Italian authorities, but by much of the US press.

I just hope that nobody in Meredith's family or circle of friends ever has to come eye-to-eye with one of these mugs, t-shirts, baseball caps or teddy bears.

For Tara's info, if Nadeau is correct it is the younger Heavey - Mike - who has joined the local support team.

I still think the main purpose of this intense campaign is to pressure the Italian authorities into granting Knox house arrest status while the trial is pending.

On Friday evening, I discussed the case with 2 people in the Seattle area whose son graduated from Seattle Prep a couple of years before Knox. Their son did not know her, and they had heard little about the case until the local media blitz began. My impression from this conversation, and from reading the comments following the most recent article, is that there is no real groundswell of popular support in Seattle, even though it sometimes seems that way.
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Offline Bluetit


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 12:10 am   Post subject:    

Jools wrote:
From Il Messaggero Umbria edition page 41.
(Google Translator
...


Thanks, Jools.

While searching for this article in the original Italian I stumbled upon another Messaggero article (by the same two journalists), published on October 5th.

http://carta.ilmessaggero.it/view.php?d ... e=STANDARD


It's a stylish piece with obvious literary pretensions (although I suspect that some of the rhetorical figures are used tongue in cheek.)

From what I can gather, the writers say that after the witness debacle Saturday's hearing balanced things out once more. The bra clasp and knife evidence are proved to be significant, a clear victory for the prosecution and defeat for the Knox and Sollecito's defence teams.
On the other hand, Rudy Guede's prospects are now rather better, they say, for his DNA on Meredith's sweatshirt was only found on one sleeve, whereas the PM hypothesized that he gripped both wrists ; moreover the DNA traces could have been left just by touching (without gripping or squeezing).
And so, they rather grandiloquently conclude, "the cards have been reshuffled once more. With Fate ready to deal again." (Sorry if my ignorance of card games makes this last bit ludicrously inaccurate !)
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:32 am   Post subject: Re: Murder marketing   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:

I still think the main purpose of this intense campaign is to pressure the Italian authorities into granting Knox house arrest status while the trial is pending.



I too think that this is their main concern...Let her be out under house arrest. then be more aggressive towards the whole ILE investigation, judiciary procedure, etc., at this point they will probably manage to get her out of Italy back to the US and get the PR to work harder on getting the American people to back her case.

I must admit I have a terrible feeling that the Gup will grant them house arrest for the couple while they wait for the full trial. :cry:
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:53 am   Post subject:    

nicki wrote:
The Machine wrote:
Jools wrote:
From Il Messaggero Umbria edition page 41.

"I was there that night in the house," says in the interview room of the prison huts, sitting in front of parents who came from Seattle, without knowing to be intercepted by the police.


Is the newspaper referring to a new conversation between Amanda and her parents or to the conversation that was intercepted last year when Amanda said that she couldn't lie because she was there? It seems to be a new conversation if the quotes are accurate and the conversation involved both parents. If Amanda did actually say "house" she must have been referring to the cottage rather than Raffaele's apartment.


Jools: great job again!
TM:: although it is not clearly stated my impression from reading the original Italian text is that they are referring to last year interception, when she wasn't aware that the conversations were tapped. As a matter of fact, when in her diary she claims she spent the night at Sollecito's she refers to Raffaele's apartment, not "the house". And how could she? Raffaele lives in an apartment, not in a house.


Hi Nicki
Yeah, I think is the same old interception, long ago (last year) they become aware that their conversations were been listened to, therefore it wouldn't be a new convo. You are right, it would be very odd to call Sollecito's room a "house" in most articles when the press refers to his place they call it the abitazione. We are bound to hear more on this interception, the fact that Gup Micheli has this conversation in the "Atti" speaks volumes.
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:39 am   Post subject: Re: Murder marketing   

Jools wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:

I still think the main purpose of this intense campaign is to pressure the Italian authorities into granting Knox house arrest status while the trial is pending.



I too think that this is their main concern...Let her be out under house arrest. then be more aggressive towards the whole ILE investigation, judiciary procedure, etc., at this point they will probably manage to get her out of Italy back to the US and get the PR to work harder on getting the American people to back her case.

I must admit I have a terrible feeling that the Gup will grant them house arrest for the couple while they wait for the full trial. :cry:


Hi Jools,
I have the same feeling too, although Knox is definitely at risk of escaping the country which is precisely one of the motivations why she has been denied house arrest in the past. Well I guess we just have to wait and see...
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 11:48 am   Post subject: Damian's Post   

Interesting article on Damian's. It covers the phone calls, arrival of the postal police, RS on calling the police apparently 'knowing' nothing had been taken and advice from his father's partner 'not to let himself go' when talking to psychologists:

"“Tell the psychologist that you’ve got nothing to do with it”

The young man is clearly finding things difficult in prison and has seen a psychologist. “Also in this case, the father’s partner’s reaction is precise: Raffaele, also when you speak to the doctor, you mustn’t let yourself go: “Always say that you’ve got nithing to do with this.” Just simple advice for a young man who is going through things which are too big for him?"

http://damiano33.wordpress.com/2008/10/ ... ro-umbria/

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 12:16 pm   Post subject: Seattle-PI Supporting Dempsey and Knox   

In regard to the Seattle-PI article by LEVI PULKKINEN, mainstream Seattle-PI reporter, linked by Tara a little while ago:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/381 ... ource=mypi

One will note that it also links to Dempsey's 'Defence blog'. I rest my case on my earlier comments that the Seattle-PI is 'officially' moving towards supporting Dempsey and therefore Knox...little by little.

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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 12:42 pm   Post subject: Re: Murder marketing   

nicki wrote:
Jools wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:

I still think the main purpose of this intense campaign is to pressure the Italian authorities into granting Knox house arrest status while the trial is pending.



I too think that this is their main concern...Let her be out under house arrest. then be more aggressive towards the whole ILE investigation, judiciary procedure, etc., at this point they will probably manage to get her out of Italy back to the US and get the PR to work harder on getting the American people to back her case.

I must admit I have a terrible feeling that the Gup will grant them house arrest for the couple while they wait for the full trial. :cry:


Hi Jools,
I have the same feeling too, although Knox is definitely at risk of escaping the country which is precisely one of the motivations why she has been denied house arrest in the past. Well I guess we just have to wait and see...



I'm not so sure. It would appear that the trial will follow the pre-trial within a few months, maybe even before the end of the year.

If we are to believe what is said about the seating in court, this has been arranged so that the suspects can't communicate. If the court has been so keen to keep them apart thus far, how will house arrest achieve the same separation?

In retrospect, the probable reason for Raffaele's transfer to Terni was to prevent the transfer of messages between Raffaele and Amanda.
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:23 pm   Post subject:    

Another retrospective observation linked with Damians story:

Amanda must have lied to her parents both when she phoned them on the 2nd and afterwards in person:

For some months Cmellas on the blogs and the Knox's elsewhere claimed that Amanda had phoned them and Raffaele the carabinarie, before the arrival of the postal police. They maintained there must be error in the postal police logging system which caused their stated time of arrival as being before those phone calls were made.

There is now timed and filmed evidence to show that the postal police log was correct and those calls were placed AFTER their arrival. In early days Amanda must have lied to her parents about this sequence of events for them to take the "faulty log" stance which they did in public.
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Offline FinnMacCool


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:51 pm   Post subject: Re: Damian's Post   

Michael wrote:
Interesting article on Damian's. It covers the phone calls, arrival of the postal police...
http://damiano33.wordpress.com/2008/10/ ... ro-umbria/


To me, the call to the carabinieri looks particularly significant at this stage. (The police, or the defense teams for that matter, might know of more significant evidence one way or the other, but we now know so much about that call that there can't be any arguments about it.)

So the questions we can legitimately ask are: Why was the call made so late? Why didn't he mention that the police were already there? How did he know that nothing had been taken? What made him think that the locked door was the real "problem"? [Non hanno portato via nulla. Il problema è che c'è la porta chiusa...]

There could feasibly be innocent explanations for these questions. But they can't be answered by arguing that the police got their timing wrong, or are deliberately trying to railroad the suspects, or whatever.
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:52 pm   Post subject:    

An interesting post from Damian.
I found it intriguing Sollecito's parents stated this:

“She (referring to Amanda) did it all for the notoriety"

I can't really figure out what they mean here exactly or why a person would crave such notoriety but considering Knox's obvious mental instability I think she would be capable of anything with her constant use of the very potent skunkweed and her being reportedly out of touch with reality.

Also the statement from his stepmother:
"Raffaele, also when you speak to the doctor, you mustn’t let yourself go: “Always say that you’ve got nothing to do with this.”

I think this is very revealing and an indication of guilt.
I ask the question:
Why (if one was innocent of a crime) would anyone let theirself go and say that they had something to do with it?

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Offline Corrina


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 2:11 pm   Post subject:    

Hello all-

I guess I'm confused. The police surely wouldn't have supplied this box to carry the knife in, right? So, somebody put/hid that knife in that box. In Raffaele's apartment.

Great. This box maybe contained little love letters from Amanda or Raffaele's favorite pair of Amanda's knickers.

Fine.

So how did Meredith's dna get on the blade?

I really must keep reminding myself that the defense is just doing their job.
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 2:29 pm   Post subject:    

The postal police did arrive at 12:25, the car park video was ten minutes fast:

the day after the murder - watching the movie the police officer noted that the schedule of the cameras was moved forward 10 minutes. Now look at this, we learn that the black point of the Post, warned by the woman who had received threats by telephone and had found the next morning two phones in the garden (those stolen in Meredith) made maneuvering in front of the camera at 12.35 and 57 seconds. And a lot before pretend - according to the prosecutor - that phone call to 112, according to tabulations from defenders, is of 12.51. Raffaele e Amanda cercavano un alibi, è la tesi accusatoria. Raffaele and Amanda seeking an alibi, is the accusations. But the video they were stuck, at least in this respect.

Among the assumptions is that the investigators that former boyfriends were there before, the arrival of the police (when then 'discovered' the lifeless body of Mez in his locked room) because wanted to clean up cottage and a pre alibi. Would be to tamper with them because the crime scene, throwing the heavy stone through the window and simulating un'effrazione.

Just that morning the first suspicions arose in the mobile team around the American student and the boyfriend Pugliese. Too quiet. Too strange to call late at Central dell'Arma....




Also on the car park video:

Up to now the attention of investigators and lawyers had concentrated on shooting the first evening of November. And those two people, one of whom dressed in clear, you see the cameras. Someone has suggested initially that it was Amanda, Meredith someone else (who wore a plush {felpa also translates to sweatshirt} blue and a pair of jeans editor's note.). In reality the two individuals have never been fully identified even though the police would have the full list of people who went to the parking lot to retrieve the car...


Google translation of La Nazione
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:35 pm   Post subject: Re: Damian's Post   

FinnMacCool wrote:
To me, the call to the carabinieri looks particularly significant at this stage. (The police, or the defense teams for that matter, might know of more significant evidence one way or the other, but we now know so much about that call that there can't be any arguments about it.)


Raffaele's call to the carabineri has been highly significant since November when Raffaele himself admitted that he hadn't called them before the postal police turned up:

"She told me to call 112 (the Italian emergency number) but in the meantime the postal police arrived.

"In my previous statement I told a load of rubbish because Amanda had convinced me of her version of the facts and I didn't think about the inconsistencies."


Raffaele's admission that he hadn't called the police before the postal police turned up was in the public domain at the very latest on 8 November last year. You might want to ask yourself why certain people have brushed this very inconvenient fact for Knox's supporters under the carpet and pretended it wasn't true.

FinnMacCool wrote:
So the questions we can legitimately ask are: Why was the call made so late? Why didn't he mention that the police were already there? How did he know that nothing had been taken? What made him think that the locked door was the real "problem"? [Non hanno portato via nulla. Il problema è che c'è la porta chiusa...]

There could feasibly be innocent explanations for these questions. But they can't be answered by arguing that the police got their timing wrong, or are deliberately trying to railroad the suspects, or whatever.


There is a very simple answer to all your questions: because Raffaele was involved in Meredith's murder. Raffaele lied to the police from the very beginning. He and Amanda told the postal police they had called the police and were waiting for them. He has repeatedly about what he was doing on the night of the murder. He has given at least three different versions of where he was and what he was doing. Everyone by now should know the reason why he lied repeatedly. He didn't want the police to know where he really was and what he was really doing. His DNA on Meredith's bra places him in her room, removing her bra. The murder weapon was his knife and it was hidden in a shoe box at his apartment. Meredith's DNA was on the blade and Amanda's DNA was on the handle. Meredith had never been to Raffaele's apartment, so it must have been taken with his consent to the cottage and used to kill Meredith.

There isn't a plausible alternative explanation.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 7:20 pm   Post subject: Straight Story   

I just wanted to respond to this posted by C. Dempsey on her defence blog:

C. Dempsey wrote:
Now let's say the police took Filomena and her boyfriend into different rooms. Would they really remember the previous night in exactly the same way in every possible detail? That would be highly suspicious.

And what about if we told Filomena: We have you on camera. We know you were there.

What if we told her boyfriend: your girlfriend left the house. We have proof that she did. She's lying to you.

What if we told both of them: You are confused. Maybe you just don't remember. This is what you did. We can prove it.

What if we just kept that up, hour after hour with no lawyer present, until we got the story we wanted?

What if we smacked Filomena around, as AK has claimed happened to her, until she gave us the right answers?
Still waiting for the audiotape on that.

What I think is the police had a very worried community on their hands and they wanted to wrap this investigation up as soon as they possibly could. They were sure that they had the culprits. They thought AK was a flight risk.


Posted by Candace Dempsey at 10/7/08 9:16 a.m.

http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/demp ... 150441.asp

First of all, Filomena was herslf interrogated.

Second of all, not only could the suspects not remember 'when' they were doing 'whatever'...they also couldn't even agree on the 'whatever'. For example, AK claims RS cooked fish...he doesn't, which is something he'd remember especially since he'd cooked it himself...apparently. Then there's the now infamous heart-to-heart 'lesbian stigma/suicided mother' after dinner convo that only Knox can remember happened - RS can't...there's more to the list but they are good enough examples. The 'only' detail on which they agree was 'I was at RS's flat'. One would expect them to agree on something just a tad more general then that.

Third. There was no 'hour after hour' of lawyerless/translatorless interrorgation. Knox's interrogation did not begin until post 12 midnight on the 5th (therefore in reality in the early am of the 6th) and she had fingered Lumumba by 1.45 am. One could therefore fairly estimate that she began her Lumumba tale within a mere 'hour' of the start of her interrogation. There was NO 'hour after hour'!!!

Fourth. You raise once again Amanda being hit, or 'smacked around' as you rather energetically put it. This is an unsupported allogation. Do you have any evidence to support it? Have Amanda's lawyers raised this and made a complaint during the hearing? The answer to that is 'NO'!


Your scenario completely contradicts the known facts and is therefore without any basis in truth or fact.

Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 7:31 pm   Post subject: Mediawhore   

Wow, mediawhore or what? She can certainly compete with Joe T!

http://www.abremner.com/

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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 8:02 pm   Post subject:    

Michael,
Thanks for posting.
I don't go to Dempsey's blog anymore and haven't for a long time - it is simply awful, an ugly stain on the blogosphere and probably the worst abuse of the internet in a murder case since its inception.
The blatant untruths, abrogation of known facts and the general lack of objectivity and poor quality of the posters there is enough, without the owner shamelessly and prolifically deleting any comment made there that suggests Knox could be guilty.

I see from your post that the truth is still being twisted and distorted - well, you've said it in your post.

As for Ms. Bremner and now the Seattle judge writing a 4 page letter to the Prosecutors and the Judiciary (I bet that scared 'em huh?) I see this as the last acts of desperation from these tacky souvenir sellers.
Before the court proceedings began, Knox had her head just above the water.
Now she has her head back and her ears submerged - and they know it.
There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that we will get justice for Meredith Kercher and the suspects who are rightly locked up behind bars at this moment will pay for this horrible crime, irrespective of how her friends in Seattle attempt to derail the case.

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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 8:05 pm   Post subject: Re: Straight Story   

Michael wrote:

The 'only' detail on which they agree was 'I was at RS's flat'. One would expect them to agree on something just a tad more general then that. Michael


According to Raffaele's first alibi, they weren't even at his apartment, but at an imaginary party. Of course, Raffaele had to abandon this ridiculous alibi because, not surprisingly, there were no witnesses at a party that never happened. He then said he was with Amanda at his apartment, but both of them couldn't remember much about what they were doing because they were suffering from "amnesia" because they had smoked one joint that evening. Despite this cannabis-induced haze they could both recall exactly what they were doing at 11 pm which was the time the police believed Meredith died. Raffaele was receiving an imaginary phone call from his father and Amanda claimed she was eating fish with Raffaele who had blood on his hand.

Amanda and Raffaele didn't even agree that they were at Raffaele's apartment for very long, Raffaele changed his alibi dramatically again in his witness statement on 5 and 6 November and claimed that Amanda wasn't with him the whole evening on the night of the murder.

Amanda then agreed she wasn't at Raffaele's apartment and admitted during questioning and in her letter to the police that she was at the cottage with Diya Lumumba.

Amanda and Raffaele not only gave conflicting statements about the night of the murder, but also completely different accounts of where they were and what they were doing.
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Offline FinnMacCool


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 8:19 pm   Post subject: Re: Damian's Post   

The Machine wrote:
There is a very simple answer to all your questions: because Raffaele was involved in Meredith's murder. Raffaele lied to the police from the very beginning. He and Amanda told the postal police they had called the police and were waiting for them. He has repeatedly [word missing - lied?] about what he was doing on the night of the murder. He has given at least three different versions of where he was and what he was doing. Everyone by now should know the reason why he lied repeatedly. He didn't want the police to know where he really was and what he was really doing. His DNA on Meredith's bra places him in her room, removing her bra. The murder weapon was his knife and it was hidden in a shoe box at his apartment. Meredith's DNA was on the blade and Amanda's DNA was on the handle. Meredith had never been to Raffaele's apartment, so it must have been taken with his consent to the cottage and used to kill Meredith.

There isn't a plausible alternative explanation.


Maybe you're right, The Machine.

If I can just play Sollecito's advocate for a moment: My client wasn't keen to tell the truth about what he was doing that night because he happened to be smoking an illegal substance at his apartment, accompanied by his girlfriend. Of course he told lies, but he's acknowledged this and shouldn't be overly punished for it. The following morning, he was unaware that the postal police had arrived when he made the call. He was around the back of the house, calling first his sister and then the carabinieri - not realizing that the postal police were already inside. The DNA on the bra - it was a messy house, and sometimes he picked up clothes that had been left around. The DNA on the knife - we contest that the DNA on the blade is that of Meredith and will bring experts to back this up.

[/devil's advocate]

That would be an alternative explanation, but it would have to be played out in court before we found out how plausible it is. The only reason I've focused on that particular bit of evidence (the 112 call) is because we have it, in its entirety, with its timings confirmed (and thanks to Brian for pointing out the business of the ten minutes' camera-clock-difference, which I'd overlooked.) There's plenty more evidence that will in the end be way more important - the DNA evidence, for a start - but the 112 call is one of the bits that nobody at this stage can deny.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 8:24 pm   Post subject: The Defence Blog   

DeathFish 2000 wrote:
Michael,
Thanks for posting.
I don't go to Dempsey's blog anymore and haven't for a long time - it is simply awful, an ugly stain on the blogosphere and probably the worst abuse of the internet in a murder case since its inception.
The blatant untruths, abrogation of known facts and the general lack of objectivity and poor quality of the posters there is enough, without the owner shamelessly and prolifically deleting any comment made there that suggests Knox could be guilty.

I see from your post that the truth is still being twisted and distorted - well, you've said it in your post.

As for Ms. Bremner and now the Seattle judge writing a 4 page letter to the Prosecutors and the Judiciary (I bet that scared 'em huh?) I see this as the last acts of desperation from these tacky souvenir sellers.
Before the court proceedings began, Knox had her head just above the water.
Now she has her head back and her ears submerged - and they know it.
There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that we will get justice for Meredith Kercher and the suspects who are rightly locked up behind bars at this moment will pay for this horrible crime, irrespective of how her friends in Seattle attempt to derail the case.


Hi DF2000,

It is of course quite right what you say about the other blog. However, I feel it sometimes goes 'so' far beyond the pale of truth it needs challenging somewhere where that challenge 'cannot' be deleted.

Now, Ms Bremner...it is clear that she merely is an extension on their 'publicity' campaign, rather then being anything of practical legal value. It does very much come over as desperate. Not only that, far worse...it comes over as a clear unethical attempt to put pressure on 'due process' in Italy. One doesn't even see the Sollecitos grandstanding during the hearing process as the Knox camp is back in the USA. Despite having absolutely no class whatsoever, it serves to emphasise that they are very afraid indeed. One has to wonder 'why' and of 'what' when they consistently maintain that there is 'no evidence at all' against their precious. Their behaviour therefore belies a very different actuallity to the propeganda.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 8:29 pm   Post subject: At a Party   

TM -

Quite right of course...the lies started long before the night of the interviews. Their maintaining they were at a party with 'a friend' is a matter of public record.

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Offline Kermit


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 8:36 pm   Post subject: Naive and intellectually dishonest   

The Machine wrote:
Raffaele's call to the carabineri has been highly significant since November when Raffaele himself admitted that he hadn't called them before the postal police turned up:

"She told me to call 112 (the Italian emergency number) but in the meantime the postal police arrived.

"In my previous statement I told a load of rubbish because Amanda had convinced me of her version of the facts and I didn't think about the inconsistencies."


Raffaele's admission that he hadn't called the police before the postal police turned up was in the public domain at the very latest on 8 November last year. You might want to ask yourself why certain people have brushed this very inconvenient fact for Knox's supporters under the carpet and pretended it wasn't true.


Charlie spent no small amount of energy insisting that Raffaele had been "coerced" (or in The Cook's words, "smacked around") by police as much as Amanda, and that explained his "I told you a load of rubbish" comment. It now seems (if there ever was any doubt) that RS' admission of having lied about the timing of the phone calls was honest truth.

All that effort by Charlie for naught.
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 8:46 pm   Post subject:    

Hi Finn,
Regarding your devils advocacy concerning the arrival of the postal police, I've always been led to believe that the two of them near enough greeted them at the gate on their arrival at the cottage.

I'm sure the postal police stated that on their arrival at the scene, Knox and Sollecito was stood outside at the front of the cottage as they came through the gate.

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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 8:51 pm   Post subject: Re: Damian's Post   

FinnMacCool wrote:
There isn't a plausible alternative explanation.

Maybe you're right, The Machine.

If I can just play Sollecito's advocate for a moment: My client wasn't keen to tell the truth about what he was doing that night because he happened to be smoking an illegal substance at his apartment, accompanied by his girlfriend. Of course he told lies, but he's acknowledged this and shouldn't be overly punished for it. The following morning, he was unaware that the postal police had arrived when he made the call. He was around the back of the house, calling first his sister and then the carabinieri - not realizing that the postal police were already inside. The DNA on the bra - it was a messy house, and sometimes he picked up clothes that had been left around. The DNA on the knife - we contest that the DNA on the blade is that of Meredith and will bring experts to back this up.

[/devil's advocate]


The huge problem with this explanation is that Amanda and Raffaele both continued to lie after they had admitted smoking cannabis: Amanda's story about meeting Diya Lumumba at the basketball court, him being at the cottage and killing Meredith and Raffaele's elaborate web of lies involving him speaking to his father at 11 pm, surfing the Internet for two hours from 11 pm and 1 am and sleeping until 10 am. They also both lied about suffering from dramatic cannabis-induced amnesia.

Raffaele and Amanda were not unaware that the postal police had arrived because Raffaele told them they had called the police and were waiting for them.

Raffaele has never claimed to have picked up Meredith's bra and so do at the trial would be regarded with justifiable sceptisism. Besides, Meredith wasn't messy and wouldn't have left her clothes, especially her underwear lying around. The forensic police have stated categorically Raffaele's DNA did not get on Meredith's bra by contamination and that Meredith's DNA was on the blade of the knife that was hidden in a shoe box at Raffaele's apartment. The procedures and findings of the forensic scientists involved in the case were confirmed as being correct by Renato Biondo.

Could you please tell Candace Dempsey that the double DNA knife was hidden in a shoe box at Raffaele's apartment and was not kept in a kitchen drawer? The significance of this should be obvious even to her, but then again probably not...
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:13 pm   Post subject:    

The Machine,

As for Sollecito's internet surfing alibi - an old schoolfriend of mine is a well known cybersleuth, he spends most of his waking hours tracking down jihadis and their networks.
I asked him about this and he said it is simply impossible, end of story.

He said the internet is just not designed for anyone to hide, no matter if it appears to the layman that you could hide behind a cloak of anonimity.
Everything is tracable and every user on this earth can be located to source no matter what fancy IP address masking software one might use.

What I am saying here is that Sollecito's defence have stated that they can prove that he was surfing at home at the time he says he was, in counter to the police stating there was no internet activity detected.

Unless Sollecito has a unique internet connection to anyone else on the planet, his claim is quite frankly...tosh.

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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:39 pm   Post subject:    

DeathFish 2000 wrote:
As for Sollecito's internet surfing alibi - an old schoolfriend of mine is a well known cybersleuth, he spends most of his waking hours tracking down jihadis and their networks.
I asked him about this and he said it is simply impossible, end of story.


I've spoken to a number of people who are specialists and they've reliably informed me that it's impossible to surf the Internet and not leave a trace. It's more palpable nonsense from Raffaele Sollecito's lawyers.
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:02 pm   Post subject:    

DF2K wrote:
...What I am saying here is that Sollecito's defence have stated that they can prove that he was surfing at home at the time he says he was, in counter to the police stating there was no internet activity detected.

Unless Sollecito has a unique internet connection to anyone else on the planet, his claim is quite frankly...tosh.


The police are saying even more than that:

They are saying he didn't even touch his computer from sometime just after 9:00pm.

It was left on all night, but the last I/O was an interaction with the keyboard which was timestamped in the tables within the operating system and written to the hard drive. It was for this reason that Papa Sollecito claimed to have sent a clone of the hard drive to Apple. Obviously without success or we would have heard so by now.
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Offline FinnMacCool


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:02 pm   Post subject:    

The Machine wrote:
FinnMacCool wrote:
Raffaele and Amanda were not unaware that the postal police had arrived because Raffaele told them they had called the police and were waiting for them.


But this alone wouldn't overturn the story I outlined above - say Raffaele was round the back of the house, he makes the call, then he goes to the house and finds the police are there... That would be consistent with his telling them, "We've just called the police and are waiting for them here."

DeathFish 2000 wrote:
Hi Finn,
Regarding your devils advocacy concerning the arrival of the postal police, I've always been led to believe that the two of them near enough greeted them at the gate on their arrival at the cottage.

I'm sure the postal police stated that on their arrival at the scene, Knox and Sollecito was stood outside at the front of the cottage as they came through the gate.


This creates far more problems, though. If the police really were greeted by Knox and Sollecito at the gate, and if Raffaele really did say "We've just called the police and are waiting for them here,", and if he then made the emergency call half an hour later, then I would expect my devil's advocate theory to take a pounding in court.
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:17 pm   Post subject:    

FinnMacCool wrote:
The Machine wrote:
Raffaele and Amanda were not unaware that the postal police had arrived because Raffaele told them they had called the police and were waiting for them.

But this alone wouldn't overturn the story I outlined above - say Raffaele was round the back of the house, he makes the call, then he goes to the house and finds the police are there... That would be consistent with his telling them, "We've just called the police and are waiting for them here." .


Raffaele's admission that he hadn't called the police before the postal police turned up demolishes your devil's advocate theory. The postal police also saw him making the phone calls which they couldn't understand because he had told them that he had already called the police.

DeathFish 2000 wrote:
Hi Finn,
Regarding your devils advocacy concerning the arrival of the postal police, I've always been led to believe that the two of them near enough greeted them at the gate on their arrival at the cottage.
I'm sure the postal police stated that on their arrival at the scene, Knox and Sollecito was stood outside at the front of the cottage as they came through the gate.


[

Most of the above scenario has been widely reported in the media and was confirmed by Raffaele in his witness statement made on 5 and 6 November. I believe the postal police found Amanda and Raffaele outside the cottage and that Raffaele called the police 15 minutes after the postal police had arrived.


Last edited by The Machine on Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:19 pm   Post subject:    

n/t
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:47 pm   Post subject:    

Whilst on the subject of phone calls and internet connections it's worth noting that the right people were involved from the start. People have laughed at the name of the postal police, but they are THE VERY PEOPLE who investigate telephone and internet crime.

Instant phone taps, instant internet checks, maybe not by those who drove up to the door but one call back to their HQ after the discovery of Meredith's body and all that knowledge and expertise would have been on tap. They had direct involvement from the get-go, they weren't called in later by the investigators.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:51 pm   Post subject: Normal spin cycle   

Re: Michael's rebuttal of IW's Filomena scenario and his link to Bremner's website and comments about her media profile.

Frankly, I think there is a simple explanation for both phenomena. As the main online arm of the local defense effort, IW is just "speculating" in ways that are friendly to the suspect Amanda Knox. That sums up her brief from the very start and she has stayed on message. I detect a little wavering with respect to Raffaele, which I think is merely a reflection of the wavering or change of strategy on the part of the Knox defense team.

As for Anne Bremner, I read that she was not being paid by the Knox/Mellas family for taking on this advocacy role. I don't know if this means she is doing her version of pro bono work, or if she is being paid by someone else. A defense fund, perhaps? Or maybe, and this is for me the most likely scenario, she is doing this job for free because of the tremendous media fallout we have seen so far. And there's lots more where that came from. Remember, she is a creature of the media, and a fixture on many of these court-TV type television programs that Americans simply can't get enough of since the OJ trial. She doesn't need to be paid a dime for whatever she is doing with respect to this case. Just being on the team, and the team and its suspect being in the spotlight, offer more than enough in the way of a payout for her.

Incidentally, the comments in the sound-off section of last weekend's presentation of the local legal effort on AK's behalf are interesting to read in this regard. Many of the comments were highly critical of Bremner because she is such a spotlight chaser. Sad to say, I am so out of it I had never heard of her; and if I have seen her on television I never even noticed. When I catch these kinds of programs I tend to focus on the case, not the talking head(s). Anyway, as a television personality, she seems to have attracted the same level of attention and animosity as Joe Tacopina.
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 11:20 pm   Post subject:    

Brian S. wrote:
Whilst on the subject of phone calls and internet connections it's worth noting that the right people were involved from the start. People have laughed at the name of the postal police, but they are THE VERY PEOPLE who investigate telephone and internet crime.

Instant phone taps, instant internet checks, maybe not by those who drove up to the door but one call back to their HQ after the discovery of Meredith's body and all that knowledge and expertise would have been on tap. They had direct involvement from the get-go, they weren't called in later by the investigators.


Exactly.
The name "postal police" is misleading to us in the english speaking world.
It tends to conjure up a Postman Pat type image of little old guys that go round to some little grannies house after she's reported her bingo cards have been snatched out of her letterbox.

This certainly threw the Knox clan for sure (what a surprise) accusing them of being some kind of incompetent carrot crunching rural types, when in fact they are far from it.
They are actually closely affiliated with the Italian anti terror squad and we all know these guys don't mess around in this day and age.
They are no mugs, that is one thing for sure.

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Offline indie


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:00 am   Post subject:    

And we also have the issue of Amanda's own mother telling her to call the police. Odd one calls their mother with frightening signs of a break in and yet doesn't feel the need to call the police. The actual details of these calls back home remain a bit confusing but it seems to me Amanda made that first call to sort of prepare/soften her mother up for the eventual horrific news.


Quote:
Knox says she returned to her cottage from Sollecito's apartment the next morning to take a shower, but found the front door of the cottage ajar and became suspicious. Concerned, she asked Sollecito to come over and Knox called her mother.

"And she said, 'Well, I was at Rafaele's last night, and I've come home now and I think somebody's been in my house,'" Mellas recalled.

"And she told me, 'We can't find Meredith. We can't get a hold of Meredith. And her room is locked.' And I said, "Hang up and call the police.'"
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Story?id=4223134&page=2




Quote:
Instead, Mellas, an elementary-school math teacher in Highline, was awakened before dawn on Nov. 2 by a call from Knox in Italy. "She said, 'Mom, I'm OK, I'm home, but I think somebody might have been in my house,' " Mellas said.

Knox told her mother she'd just come home after spending the night with Sollecito to find the front door ajar, droplets of blood in her bathroom, feces in a toilet, and the bedroom door of housemate Meredith Kercher locked. Knox took a shower, then left to fetch Sollecito, who then called police.

Amanda called again a few hours later, this time with panic her voice. "They found a body in Meredith's room," Mellas, 46, remembers her daughter saying. "I gotta go, the police want to talk with me." http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/l ... x17m0.html


Quote:
At 4am on November 2 last year, on a cold dark morning in the American city of Seattle, Edda Mellas was woken by a phone call from her daughter Amanda Knox, calling from Perugia in Italy where she was studying Italian and creative writing. “Mom, I’m home and I’m okay,” Knox told her. Her mother said: “Okay, what’s going on?” Knox replied: “Well, something strange is going on.”
When Knox first called Edda to say “something strange is going on”, she said she had spent the night at Sollecito’s flat, where they watched a film. She went home in the morning to have a shower, but found the front door open. She thought someone may have gone out into the garden. The door to Meredith’s bedroom was closed and Knox assumed she was sleeping. It was only when she stepped out of the shower that she noticed a few spots of blood by the sink.

Perhaps someone had cut themselves or one of the girls had her period. What really struck her as odd was finding the lavatory unflushed; the girls always flushed it. She said she went to Sollecito’s flat, they had breakfast, then she took him to the cottage. Knox managed to call two of her three housemates: “I can’t get hold of Meredith. Meredith’s door is locked. We tried to pound on the door to wake her and she’s not answering.” Edda told her to call the police. There was no panic in Knox’s voice, just worry. (Later, Edda asked Knox how she had felt then. “My mind didn’t jump to murder: it’s not something that comes into my life experience,” she replied.)

Edda was sitting up in bed wide awake when Knox called less than an hour later. She heard shouting in the background as Knox burst out: “Oh my God, they’re screaming about a foot near the cupboard, the cops are screaming. I’m outside the house. I don’t know what’s going on. I gotta go.” She called back moments later – Edda says this time Knox was extremely agitated. She said: “It’s not a foot, there’s a body. They’ve found a body near the cupboard or in the cupboard, I can’t make out which.” Edda asked: “Who is it?” Knox replied: “I don’t know, I haven’t seen but no one can get hold of Meredith. It’s Meredith’s room. I gotta go, the police want to talk to me.” http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 113087.ece
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Offline Rhonda


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 6:35 am   Post subject:    

[b][i]Skep said:

"As for Anne Bremner, I read that she was not being paid by the Knox/Mellas family for taking on this advocacy role. I don't know if this means she is doing her version of pro bono work, or if she is being paid by someone else. A defense fund, perhaps? Or maybe, and this is for me the most likely scenario, she is doing this job for free because of the tremendous media fallout we have seen so far. And there's lots more where that came from. Remember, she is a creature of the media, and a fixture on many of these court-TV type television programs that Americans simply can't get enough of since the OJ trial. She doesn't need to be paid a dime for whatever she is doing with respect to this case. Just being on the team, and the team and its suspect being in the spotlight, offer more than enough in the way of a payout for her.

Incidentally, the comments in the sound-off section of last weekend's presentation of the local legal effort on AK's behalf are interesting to read in this regard. Many of the comments were highly critical of Bremner because she is such a spotlight chaser. Sad to say, I am so out of it I had never heard of her; and if I have seen her on television I never even noticed. When I catch these kinds of programs I tend to focus on the case, not the talking head(s). Anyway, as a television personality, she seems to have attracted the same level of attention and animosity as Joe Tacopina."

Anne Bremmer use to be on the old Court TV as was Joe T. They were both commenters on various trials. They know each other, and are of the same ilk. She was always quite flirty with him, but many of the female commenters were. She tended to flip her hair a lot, which has always bugged me, and never managed to say anything other than a defense attorney's regular babble. At least Joe has been associated with some high profile cases, I can't say the same for her.

Love the new board...
Thank you both for all your efforts!
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:00 am   Post subject:    

Indie wrote:
... The actual details of these calls back home remain a bit confusing but it seems to me Amanda made that first call to sort of prepare/soften her mother up for the eventual horrific news.



It's the times of those calls I'd love to know, Indie. Along with the time RS called his sister


From the Timeline:

1226 "Today it was confirmed that the garage video recorded the car of the postal police arriving at 12.26..." and find AK and RS outside (but within the gate), who said they were waiting for the Carabinieri

1235 Filomena receives phonecall from AK "who told me that she had slept at Raffaele's house and that when she had gone back to out house she had found the door open and blood in her bathroom. She told me that she'd had a shower, that she was scared and that she was going to call Raffaele Sollecito. It seemed really strange to me and I asked her to check that the house was in order and to call the police or Carabinieri."

1235 - 1245 Second phone conversation between AK and FR

1245 Third phone conversation between AK and FR "she told me that the window in my room was broken and that my room was in a mess. At this point I asked her to call the police and she told me that she already had."

1200 - 1300 RS phones his sister

1251 RS phones the Carabinieri (for the first time)

1254 RS phones the Carabinieri again

1300 (just before) PG arrives at cottage where M was present and "Amanda and Raffaele were in Amanda's room because at a certain point they came out into the corridor and we introduced ourselves."

1300 Filomena Romanelli arrives at apartment with her friends PA and LA 'Luca'

1315 (circa) After listening to Filomena's remarks, with Postal Police present, LA breaks down door of MK's room



Quote:
Instead, Mellas, an elementary-school math teacher in Highline, was awakened before dawn on Nov. 2 by a call from Knox in Italy.....


Quote:
At 4am on November 2 last year, on a cold dark morning in the American city of Seattle, Edda Mellas was woken by a phone call from her daughter.....Edda was sitting up in bed wide awake when Knox called less than an hour later. She heard shouting in the background as Knox burst out: “Oh my God, they’re screaming about a foot near the cupboard.....




Rome (Italy) Friday, November 2, 2007 at 12:26:00 PM
Seattle (U.S.A. - Washington) Friday, November 2, 2007 at 4:26:00 AM

The postal police arrive.


10 minutes short of an hour later:

Rome (Italy) Friday, November 2, 2007 at 1:15:00 PM
Seattle (U.S.A. - Washington) Friday, November 2, 2007 at 5:15:00 AM

Meredith's body is discovered.




Is it the case that the arrival of the postal police also prompted the first phone call from AK to her mother and RS call to his sister?

Did they make those calls when they suddenly realised the police were actually walking towards the cottage?

The police will know.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:37 am   Post subject: Video on Damian's   

Rhonda -

I'm glad you're happy with it :)

All -

Interesting new video on Damian's comprising of interviews with local press and professors from Perugia University. It's all in Italian without subtitles. Let's say....the film has a 'very' Italian feel to it. 100 points if you can spot the IW!

http://damiano33.wordpress.com/2008/10/ ... a-movente/

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:42 am   Post subject: Re: Norma spin cycle   

Skep wrote:
Frankly, I think there is a simple explanation for both phenomena. As the main online arm of the local defense effort, IW is just "speculating" in ways that are friendly to the suspect Amanda Knox. That sums up her brief from the very start and she has stayed on message. I detect a little wavering with respect to Raffaele, which I think is merely a reflection of the wavering or change of strategy on the part of the Knox defense team.


Yes, I believe there you very much have it. However, I do very much feel her precise relationship to the Knox's/Mellas's should be public knowledge. In my view, it's a major breech of journalistic ethics otherwise. But then, she refuses to come clean on that.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:55 am   Post subject: Call to RS's Sister   

Brian -

Regarding the time of RS's phonecall to his sister, wouldn't that be about 5 mins before his call to the Carabinieri? I seem to recall that on phoning his sister she told him to phone them which he said he did on finishing speaking to her. Whether he 'did' or not (within that time) is a different matter since conceivably, he could have phoned them an hour or more after speaking to her. But, if he is telling the truth on that it would put the call to his sister c. 12.46 and therefore that too would have been after the arrival of the Police Postale

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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:15 pm   Post subject:    

Hi All,

Another brilliant translation from Damian.

Raffaele’s Prison Life
Messaggero Umbria. 08.10.2008. Journalists; I.Carmignani and V.Ugolini.

The hope and the anguish. The memories of that night - the night in which Meredith Kercher, the English Erasmus student, was killed by three stabs to the neck in Perugia - which become nightmares, they come and they go. The hope which turns into anger because the day of his release doesn’t arrive, because journalists go digging into his private life without him, Raffaele Sollecito, (…d) being able to defend himself, to answer back, to make his voice heard. But behind every thought there’s always her, Amanda Knox, the other suspect. A love story which started at a classical music concert at the University for Foreigners, a few meetings at ‘Le Chic’, the pub where Amanda worked for Patrick Lumumba and fifteen days of passion which ended up being in the middle of a story of death.

http://damiano33.wordpress.com/
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:45 pm   Post subject:    

From Damian's brilliant translation:


The Sollecito's unplugged:


Both his father and his step-mother try to make him understand that his relationship with that young woman can bring nothing but trouble. During the first weeks in prison, Raffaele is unsure but the step-mother is determined..”You must stay at home, at your place…because you don’t know anything about that person…you must feel sorry for the young woman who is no more…you must feel sorry for her…”

She continues: “Imagine if you can really know what somebody is like after knowing them for 15 days…” But Raffaele still can’t believe that his Amanda is a murderer: (these are the days just after the murder) “Anyway, now I can tell you that I have doubts about the fact that she went and killed her…”The only person that calls you at the scene of the crime is her…so, with this ‘I don’t remember’, everybody is thinking about themselves…”


From Damians earlier translation:

Raffaele Sollecito, his father and his new wife, dated March1.

“Don’t ever talk about the crime with Amanda”

It’s the conversation in which Raffaele says he feels bad because he couldn’t remember whether Amanda had been with him the whole time on the night of the murder. According to the father and step-mother, “Amanda got herself in trouble” (’Amanda si e’ incastrata da sola’ d). She’s in prison because of what she said, because she involved Patrick Lumumba, “who’s never been in that house, there’s no trace of him.” The parents then advise him on what he should do when he is released. He and Amanda, say the Sollecito’s - can write to each other, send each other e-mails, but they should never talk about the murder. Advice which the investigators thought was suspicious.

“Don’t feel bad about what you said”

“She (referring to Amanda) did it all for the notoriety”, the parents continue. Raffaele then gets back to details of the investigation, trying to reconstruct what happened in the days leading up to the murder saying that there are receipts for the acquisition of bleach. (which, according to the police, was used to clean the cottage and Raffaele’s appartment in corso Garibaldi.)

“Tell the psychologist that you’ve got nothing to do with it”

The young man is clearly finding things difficult in prison and has seen a psychologist. “Also in this case, the father’s partner’s reaction is precise: Raffaele, also when you speak to the doctor, you mustn’t let yourself go: “Always say that you’ve got nothing to do with this.”




Why did you kill her Raffaele???


Last edited by Brian S. on Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:46 pm   Post subject:    

The family explain to Raffaele that there have been other examples of him being treated unjustly. For example, in the appartment under the one where the murder was committed, the police found some marijuana plants. “That was hushed up straight away” say Francesco and Mara Sollecito, “because those responsible for the cultivation of the drugs, convinced by the prosecutor and the investigators, made statements agaisnt Raffaele in exchange for immunity.”

Did Meredith catch you and Amanda as you were about to steal the boys plants?


I'll change Rudy's diary question:

Was he with you or was it just you two downstairs?

Had you run out of blow?
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:53 pm   Post subject: Immunity Deal?   

Brian wrote:
For example, in the appartment under the one where the murder was committed, the police found some marijuana plants. “That was hushed up straight away” say Francesco and Mara Sollecito, “because those responsible for the cultivation of the drugs, convinced by the prosecutor and the investigators, made statements agaisnt Raffaele in exchange for immunity.”


Oh dear, one can just see the Knox Camp running with this one in the days to come.

One has to ask though...how would the Sollecito's have known this? It is hardly something the prosecution would have shared with them and if the boys had opened their mouths, wouldn't that have blown any given immunity deal? In any case, the testimony from any of the boys downstairs has hardly been damaging to RS and AK. One would have expected more damaging testimony from them if there had been any such deal.

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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:18 pm   Post subject:    

I've got a feeling these stories in Il Messagero may be coming from the Sollecito camp.

Nothing is Raffaele's fault.

The hope and the anguish. The memories of that night - the night in which Meredith Kercher, the English Erasmus student, was killed by three stabs to the neck in Perugia - which become nightmares, they come and they go. The hope which turns into anger because the day of his release doesn’t arrive, because journalists go digging into his private life without him, Raffaele Sollecito, (…d) being able to defend himself, to answer back, to make his voice heard.....

Amanda stays in his mind. (’un pensiero fisso’)

A relationship which continues even behind bars, 100kms apart - she’s in Capnne prison and he’s in Terni’s - even if the stress of incarceration and the trial alter emotions. After the first months of detention he continues to think about her but members of his family try to put his feet back on the ground. Both his father and his step-mother try to make him understand that his relationship with that young woman can bring nothing but trouble.....

He gave a grey and black account of his life to a friend who went to see him in May. He said that he can’t study because everyday his thoughts always end up there, at the fact that he remains in prison when he was hoping that the High Court would release him. In Giovinazzo, his friends had prepared fireworks for the party once he returned, but that party never took place. “I was really unlucky to have met Amanda”, Raffaele confides in his friend. Who knows if he changed his mind after meeting her in person, 11 months after his arrest at the preliminary hearing.....

But life in prison is heavy. He tries to fill his days doing many things, keeping himself busy. Even though the trial is always present, in every meeting with family members and friends who go and visit him every week. Raffaele has discovered his passion for cooking; in his cell, hanging from the wall, there is a selction of saucepans. His family have gradually brought these to him, along with food, every time they visit him. He also asks for recipes so that he can eat well. Once, he managed to cook a pizza in his cell. This is in stark contrast to his previous life. The books from Capanne haven’t arrived at Terni. Weeks went by before he could use the computer to study for his exams. Time opens up. Raffaele gets engrossed in long chess matches with his cellmate. He made the chess board out of cardboard and the pieces are made from modified bottle tops (…d) To make him win, his father advises him on the moves to make. He spends some of his time with Roberto Spaccino, accused of murdering his pregnant wife (8 months pregnant d) and there’s the coffee he has during the visits, but life in prison is still a weight he must bear everyday.....

Like that of the bleach receipts…where did they end up, wonders Raffaele? His father reassures him: “The price was changed two months ago…it used to cost 85c and now it costs 90c…since she is…the price changed two months ago round here.”....And then there’s the nightmare of not being able to remember. When was the mobile phone turned on? When was the computer used? “What was Amanda wearing the night of the murder” “I don’t remember, I don’t remember.” Raffaele’s torment. And that knife, how could it be the murder weapon? Raffaele often asks his father who reassures him, tries to calm him down, to support him. Also if anger sometimes gets the better of him, and arrogance. Like the series of bugged conversations recorded both in prison and on the phone, during which Raffaele’s family heavily criticised the way in which the investigation has been carried out.

The family’s anger

Not only this, they also put a series of contacts with politicians to work in an effort to get investigators taken off the case. Francesco remembers that Raffaele has been treated unjustly compared to other presumed murderers.....The family explain to Raffaele that there have been other examples of him being treated unjustly. For example, in the appartment under the one where the murder was committed, the police found some marijuana plants. “That was hushed up straight away”....






He's in prison unfairly, his family's actions haven't helped him although they meant well. They thought he was treated very badly by the investigation, evidence in exchange for dropping cultivation charges. That's why they wanted some people removed and maybe he would have remembered better if they'd let him, he wouldn't be suffering this torment.


AHHHHH. I've just remembered I was with Amanda at my place all along. I should have said so ages ago.


????????????????????????????
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Offline Jumpy


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 6:42 pm   Post subject:    

Brian S. wrote:
But life in prison is heavy... Raffaele gets engrossed in long chess matches with his cellmate. He made the chess board out of cardboard and the pieces are made from modified bottle tops (…d) To make him win, his father advises him on the moves to make. He spends some of his time with Roberto Spaccino, accused of murdering his pregnant wife (8 months pregnant d) and there’s the coffee he has during the visits, but life in prison is still a weight he must bear everyday.....



Ahaahahh. Needs Ole Daddy to help him with chess games? This is too much!
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:12 pm   Post subject: ADMINISTRATOR NOTE   

I Have updated the Group's Calander with this month's court schedule. Simply click on an entry in order to expand it:

http://perugiamurderfile.cal_lite.php

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Offline Fly by Night


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:08 pm   Post subject: Re: ADMINISTRATOR NOTE   

Michael wrote:
I Have updated the Group's Calander with this month's court schedule. Simply click on an entry in order to expand it:
http://perugiamurderfile.freeforums.org/cal_lite.php


Thanks Michael - time is getting short for these suspects.

There are now a number of excellent translations by Damian posted October 8th concerning suspect conversations that were "overheard" by the police. I have to say that this board (as it has evolved over the many months) is continually proven to be on the right track as we see these reconfirmations from other sources.

The revelations regarding the Sollecito's thoughts are one thing, but there's bit about a conversation between Amanda and Curt that provides a clear indication of what the family has been up to all along: get Amanda out of jail, bring her back to Seattle, and then fight extradition. This helps to explain why, as the case against her is finally revealed and a ruling on sending her to trial nears, they've stepped up PR efforts with attacks by Attorney Bremner and Judge Heavey.

The Knox camp continues to act on their desire to extract Amanda Knox from jail at any cost - before the truth comes out - truth be damned, in fact - most recently in a press release to Seattle NBC affiliate KING announcing their awareness campaign to exonerate Knox in the court of public opinion and regain her freedom.
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:09 pm   Post subject: Re: Norma spin cycle   

Michael wrote:
Yes, I believe there you very much have it. However, I do very much feel her precise relationship to the Knox's/Mellas's should be public knowledge. In my view, it's a major breech of journalistic ethics otherwise. But then, she refuses to come clean on that.


I think it's safe assume that Candace Dempsey has some kind of relationship with Amanda's parents. Candace has been asked numerous times whether she has a relationship with them and she has always refused to answer the question. She refuses to answer the question because she will be no longer being able to maintain the charade, not that it fools anyone anyway, of being an impartial "journalist" who is following the case. Fast Pete asked the question on the TJMK website whether she is on the defence team's payroll. It's a very a valid question because she doesn't seem to be working for any media organisation; she just writes posts all day about the case, writes the occasional and extremely biased blog insanely arguing in favour of Amanda's innocence and deletes any posts they suggest Amanda or Raffaele are guilty. She's been doing that for months now. So who has paid for her trips to Italy and the accommodation? It must have cost thousands of dollars.


Last edited by The Machine on Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Corrina


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:09 pm   Post subject: Nice   

Cool beans, Michael! Thanks for the calendar; that sure will come in handy...
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:29 pm   Post subject:    

From CU today.

Hi Michael,

According to the CU the verdict is set for the 28th and in a different building this time.

http://umbria.corr.it/news.asp?id=36
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Offline Bluetit


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:31 pm   Post subject:    

Michael and Jools,
Thanks for the calendar and its alleged latest revision (according to the CU).

It appears that AK's defence will be done with in one day (the 21st), while both RS's and RG's will overflow (and last one and a half day, I believe). Why is that, do you think ? (If I have misunderstood the schedule, please correct me).

And what about the extra dates the CU mentioned, Saturday 18th (just formal opening ?) and Saturday 25th ? Anything known about what is supposed to happen then ?
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:02 pm   Post subject:    

The cook is not a journalist, by her very nature she disproves this herself.
I saw a local Seattle TV report in which she phoned in a "report" of Knox's first day in court.
It was cringeworthy to say the least and amateurish at best.

The scoop our lady on the spot was reporting in with was that all of the officials in court are men, so I think but I'm not sure that what she must have been getting at was that Knox would not get a fair hearing due to this.
I may be wrong but I just couldn't understand what she was on about. She was very quickly cut off anyway.

In consideration of the Knox teams percieved unfair and prejudicial media attention claim I think to counter this that a good first place to look would be the defence blog in her name that has been churning out nothing but distorted rubbish in favour of Knox for the best part of a year.
Her modus operandi is unethical to say the least and if she does belong to any journalism association or official organisation she should be flagged up to them and quite rightly struck off.


In the days when I first visited her blog and was left absolutely outraged by her shameless behaviour, I wrote to the editor of Seattle PI and informed him what was happening on a blog his newspaper was hosting.
I pointed out and provided a link to the myspace Free Amanda Knox page ran by the friend of Knox (Madison?) who had been providing the cook with pics of Knox for her blog and linking the cooks blog on her Free Amanda site.
I also pointed out that this could explain the many deletions of comments by Dempsey of people who suggested that Knox may be guilty, so therefore could hardly be linked to from a Free Amanda Knox site.
I never recieved a reply...

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Last edited by DeathFish 2000 on Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:21 pm   Post subject: Getting it   

DF2K wrote:

Quote:
The scoop our lady on the spot was reporting in with was that all of the officials in court are men, so I think but I'm not sure that what she must have been getting at was that Knox would not get a fair hearing due to this.


I thought her point had something to do with the fact that most of the journalists and other media people following the case are men. One of IW's favorite hobby-horses is that this case has been sexualized by a bunch of middle-aged men in the media, with the implication being that they are perverts or sex-starved or both. In the interest of absolute journalistic fairness, though, I think that the term middle-aged should be expanded to encompass both genders.
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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:25 pm   Post subject: Re: Norma spin cycle   

The Machine wrote:
Michael wrote:
Yes, I believe there you very much have it. However, I do very much feel her precise relationship to the Knox's/Mellas's should be public knowledge. In my view, it's a major breech of journalistic ethics otherwise. But then, she refuses to come clean on that.


I think it's safe assume that Candace Dempsey has some kind of relationship with Amanda's parents. Candace has been asked numerous times whether she has a relationship with them and she has always refused to answer the question. She refuses to answer the question because she will be no longer being able to maintain the charade, not that it fools anyone anyway, of being an impartial "journalist" who is following the case. Fast Pete asked the question on the TJMK website whether she is on the defence team's payroll. It's a very a valid question because she doesn't seem to be working for any media organisation; she just writes posts all day about the case, writes the occasional and extremely biased blog insanely arguing in favour of Amanda's innocence and deletes any posts they suggest Amanda or Raffaele are guilty. She's been doing that for months now. So who has paid for her trips to Italy and the accommodation? It must have cost thousands of dollars.


And it looks like she's STILL refusing to answer the question. This just posted on her defense blog:

Quote:
I see on a certain oddly hosted message board that I am once again being accused of taking money from the Dave Marriott public relations firm, which represents the Knox family. I guess I have to say once again that I have never met the man, spoken with him, emailed him, telephoned him nor had anything to do with his well-respected Seattle firm.

IN ADDITION, AMERICAN JOURNALISTS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO TAKE MONEY FROM P.R. FIRMS ON STORIES THAT THEY ARE COVERING. THAT IS A CONFLICT OF INTEREST. NOR WOULD THE P-I ALLOW IT. END OF STORY.


This statement says absolutely nothing about the Knox/Mellas relationship! And I'm still trying to figure out what she means by "oddly hosted"! :lol:
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:25 pm   Post subject: Responses   

F.B.N wrote:
Thanks Michael - time is getting short for these suspects.


Hi F.B.N...it certainly is isn't it? I'm willing to bet time is just racing along for them right now.

The Machine wrote:
I think it's safe assume that Candace Dempsey has some kind of relationship with Amanda's parents.


Indeed...and it's the worst kept secret out there.

Corrina wrote:
Cool beans, Michael! Thanks for the calendar; that sure will come in handy...


Nice little feature that isn't it? Not only that, it can be 'backdated' so our Calendrical Timeline can be added to it (which I'll do as soon as I get round to doing it). Just a F.Y.I...at any point anyone wants to view the calendar, if you weren't aware. you can access it by clicking on the horizontal links bar right at the top of the group. Members can also recommend entries in the calendar itself, so if anyone wants to go right ahead and I'll verify them each time I next view the calendar :)

Jools wrote:
From CU today.

Hi Michael,

According to the CU the verdict is set for the 28th and in a different building this time.

http://umbria.corr.it/news.asp?id=36


Hi Jools and thanks for that. The schedule I entered I got from Frank. So, what I've done is I've entered both dates for the verdicts (quoting the source for the dates for each) and I'll delete one as soon as we're absolutely sure which one is correct.

Bluetit wrote:
Michael and Jools,
Thanks for the calendar and its alleged latest revision (according to the CU).

It appears that AK's defence will be done with in one day (the 21st), while both RS's and RG's will overflow (and last one and a half day, I believe). Why is that, do you think ? (If I have misunderstood the schedule, please correct me).

And what about the extra dates the CU mentioned, Saturday 18th (just formal opening ?) and Saturday 25th ? Anything known about what is supposed to happen then ?


Okay, I'm just guessing you understand, but maybe RS's is longer because they are contesting more evidence then Amanda's defence? Saturday the 18th (continuing into the 20th) will be where Mignini provides a reconstruction of events or the 'story' of what, in the prosecution's view, happened the night Meredith was murdered. This is the part I'm looking forward to the most...as all up to now has just been the raw data...here we'll finally see how the prosecution turn that data into a narrative, so it should be most interesting.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:36 pm   Post subject:    

Dempsey,
Doesn't my post above represent a conflict of interest on your part?
I will not visit your extremely oddly hosted blog so will rely on one of our respected members here, to get back to me if you have any decency in your body to reply.

_________________
R.I.P
Meredith Kercher.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:43 pm   Post subject: We the Oddly Hosted   

Tara wrote:
And it looks like she's STILL refusing to answer the question. This just posted on her defense blog:

Quote:
I see on a certain oddly hosted message board that I am once again being accused of taking money from the Dave Marriott public relations firm, which represents the Knox family. I guess I have to say once again that I have never met the man, spoken with him, emailed him, telephoned him nor had anything to do with his well-respected Seattle firm.

IN ADDITION, AMERICAN JOURNALISTS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO TAKE MONEY FROM P.R. FIRMS ON STORIES THAT THEY ARE COVERING. THAT IS A CONFLICT OF INTEREST. NOR WOULD THE P-I ALLOW IT. END OF STORY.


This statement says absolutely nothing about the Knox/Mellas relationship! And I'm still trying to figure out what she means by "oddly hosted"!


Hi Tara,

'Oddly hosted'??? Wot?

And what's she talking about 'once again being accused of taking money from the Dave Marriott public relations firm'? Well, we haven't accused her of doing that have we? What we (or some of us) HAVE accused her of doing, is having a rather cosy relationship with the Knox/Mellas family and not being totally upfront about the nature and extent of that relationship...nobody said anything about their PR man. Unless...there is some other 'oddly hosted message board' to which she's reffering.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:50 pm   Post subject: Re: We the Oddly Hosted   

Just to ellaborate on that...it seems to me Candace is sidestepping the question by means of answering one she isn't being asked.

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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:57 pm   Post subject:    

Bluetit wrote:
Michael and Jools,
Thanks for the calendar and its alleged latest revision (according to the CU).

It appears that AK's defence will be done with in one day (the 21st), while both RS's and RG's will overflow (and last one and a half day, I believe). Why is that, do you think ? (If I have misunderstood the schedule, please correct me).

And what about the extra dates the CU mentioned, Saturday 18th (just formal opening ?) and Saturday 25th ? Anything known about what is supposed to happen then ?


Hi Bluetit,

The way I understand it is that the 18th is Prosecutors day to recontruct moment by moment what happened on the night Meredith was murdered. 20th will still be prosecutors with their conclusions plus same day some time as well for all the civil parties:

Patrick= 2 lawyers
Kercher family=1 lawyer
Owner of cottage= 1 lawyer

21st will be AK's defense = 2 lawyers
22nd and part of 24th, RS's defense= 5 lawyers (alla OJ)
part of 24 and the 25th RG's defense = 3 lawyers
27th at the end of the hearing the three defendants can ask for a brief final statement
28th is the GUP day the verdict for all three. RG could get a sentence and AK and RS will either walk free or could be sentence for the full trial

I'm just guessing but the amount of lawyers each defendant has it's what determines the time granted.
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Offline Bluetit


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:18 pm   Post subject:    

Jools wrote:

... I'm just guessing but the amount of lawyers each defendant has it's what determines the time granted.


Jools,

Thanks a lot. Yes, you are probably right.
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:33 pm   Post subject:    

21st will be AK's defense
22nd and part of 24th, RS's defense

It's this order which has attracted me. Who assigns? and who agrees? Is it the toss of a coin? Do the defences have a choice? What happens if they disagree?

In light of some content in Damian's latest translation

It’s the first of March. Raffaele Sollecito meets his father Francesco and his step-mother Mara in prison. During this visit, they talk about many things and Raffaele says he feels remorse for not having supported Amanda, for not being sure if she left the house on the night of the murder. Both the father and his wife console him and encourage him to reason. And to stop thinking about Amanda.

Francesco: “…It’s not like they just base it on (the fact d) that you said you didn’t remember. Or also if you had said she was there it was for (incomprehensible) you told a lie like you said before because, to cover for her, because she said, they put her inside because she said…she said to him that…she said she went to meet Lumumba. (…) The statements she made are very circumstantial. Because she told him she went out at that time, that she was in contact before with sms messages with that professor, then she left your house, she went to the basketball court where she met Lumumba…


I've got something I want to check up on at an old Haloscan.

I haven't got the link at this PC, could some kind person post it?
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:16 am   Post subject: Rudy's defence.   

Rudy's defence is obvious.

He'll stick to his story which is known plus a bit we don't know which he added on March 26.

Something to do with the phones? - he had previously annoyed Matteini.
Something in his diary which has never been explained? "Was it all of you downstairs?"
More on his alleged fight with RS? The scar/s on his hand were piced in Germany.
Something to do with drugs?

But he has something else on his side. I got a pointer from a post on Perugia Shock a month or two ago from someone posting in Italian and I think his defense will argue this quite strongly.

Staged breakin, STAGED RAPE

He has always maintained that Meredith was dressed when he ran from the scene.

What no-one can argue about is that Meredith's bra was cut from her body AFTER she had bled profusely from the neck. The shoulder straps were soaked in blood and Raffaele Sollecito's DNA is on the section of the back strap which was cut off with the knife.
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Offline indie


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:21 am   Post subject:    

Brian

here is the first

http://www.haloscan.com/comments/truecr ... 274193971/
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Offline indie


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:23 am   Post subject:    

#2

http://www.haloscan.com/comments/truecr ... 668042897/

#3

http://truecrimeweblog.disqus.com/open_ ... h_kercher/

#4

http://www.haloscan.com/comments/truecr ... 0/?a=17960
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Offline indie


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:26 am   Post subject:    

And more discussion:

http://www.truecrimeweblog.com/2008/02/ ... rcher.html
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Offline Fly by Night


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:31 am   Post subject: Re: Rudy's defence.   

Brian S. wrote:
Staged breakin, STAGED RAPE
He (Rudy) has always maintained that Meredith was dressed when he ran from the scene.
What no-one can argue about is that Meredith's bra was cut from her body AFTER she had bled profusely from the neck. The shoulder straps were soaked in blood and Raffaele Sollecito's DNA is on the section of the back strap which was cut off with the knife.


Perhaps, but recall that last Saturday Mignini and Comodi submitted a report concerning the bloody hand print left on a pillowcase by Rudy Guede. According to their photo expert, Giuseppe Codispoti, the hand print contradicts Rudy’s version and indicates his active participation (the pillow was found under the legs of the victim) in the murder. It sounds like they don't think this was part of any "staging" effort.
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:33 am   Post subject:    

Thanks Indie,

I'll be back in a while.
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Offline indie


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:37 am   Post subject:    

And 2 more and I believe we then moved to the forum

http://www.haloscan.com/comments/truecr ... 365474799/


http://www.haloscan.com/comments/truecr ... 842601610/
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Offline indie


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:39 am   Post subject:    

Brian S. wrote:
Thanks Indie,

I'll be back in a while.



...we'll leave the light on for you.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:50 am   Post subject: Re: Rudy's defence.   

Fly by Night wrote:
Brian S. wrote:
Staged breakin, STAGED RAPE
He (Rudy) has always maintained that Meredith was dressed when he ran from the scene.
What no-one can argue about is that Meredith's bra was cut from her body AFTER she had bled profusely from the neck. The shoulder straps were soaked in blood and Raffaele Sollecito's DNA is on the section of the back strap which was cut off with the knife.


Perhaps, but recall that last Saturday Mignini and Comodi submitted a report concerning the bloody hand print left on a pillowcase by Rudy Guede. According to their photo expert, Giuseppe Codispoti, the hand print contradicts Rudy’s version and indicates his active participation (the pillow was found under the legs of the victim) in the murder. It sounds like they don't think this was part of any "staging" effort.


Oh, I'm not saying Rudy is innocent. I don't know.

I'm more saying that this is what I believe his defense will argue.

But on the handprint, Biscotti said it didn't change anything. Rudy has always said he was covered in blood, he said he fetched towels from the bathroom in an attempt to staunch the blood(the towels do exist), he must have been holding and touching Meredith in some way. When did his handprint get on the pillow? Who put the pillow where it was? He also made the finger marks on the wall in blood which were supposed to represent AF which is what he says he thought Meredith was attempting to say.
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:03 am   Post subject:    

That beautiful Diana Ross song that my wife and eldest daughter love so much... I'm still waiting.....

_________________
R.I.P
Meredith Kercher.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:05 am   Post subject:    

It’s the first of March. Raffaele Sollecito meets his father Francesco and his step-mother Mara in prison. During this visit, they talk about many things and Raffaele says he feels remorse for not having supported Amanda, for not being sure if she left the house on the night of the murder. Both the father and his wife console him and encourage him to reason. And to stop thinking about Amanda.

Francesco: “…It’s not like they just base it on (the fact d) that you said you didn’t remember. Or also if you had said she was there it was for (incomprehensible) you told a lie like you said before because, to cover for her, because she said, they put her inside because she said…she said to him that…she said she went to meet Lumumba. (…) The statements she made are very circumstantial. Because she told him she went out at that time, that she was in contact before with sms messages with that professor, then she left your house, she went to the basketball court where she met Lumumba…

Mara: “It’s worth thinking about this, you must give this some thought because the Americans are a bit more advanced than we are, do you understand? They do lots of things for notoriety even if they become meteours, that is today…(incomprehensible)…tomorrow you don’t remember them anymore because someone else has taken their place.”.......


Damians translation




Chris,

How far apart are the real alibi's of Amanda and Raffaele?
Newbie

They are in line 100% as they were in the beginning.
The only time they supposedly diverged was during the time of interrogation by the police, when they were told lies and pitted against eachother and beaten, etc.

As for SB's statement regarding this, We have a complaint lodged against the dept for this, as well as a complaint regarding all the leaks...you hear tons about all that and see the results of it all the time.
Chris Mellas | 03.27.08 - 3:19 am |



Link to this post on Haloscan
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:23 am   Post subject: Re: Rudy's defence.   

Brian S. wrote:
Fly by Night wrote:
Brian S. wrote:
Staged breakin, STAGED RAPE
He (Rudy) has always maintained that Meredith was dressed when he ran from the scene.
What no-one can argue about is that Meredith's bra was cut from her body AFTER she had bled profusely from the neck. The shoulder straps were soaked in blood and Raffaele Sollecito's DNA is on the section of the back strap which was cut off with the knife.


Perhaps, but recall that last Saturday Mignini and Comodi submitted a report concerning the bloody hand print left on a pillowcase by Rudy Guede. According to their photo expert, Giuseppe Codispoti, the hand print contradicts Rudy’s version and indicates his active participation (the pillow was found under the legs of the victim) in the murder. It sounds like they don't think this was part of any "staging" effort.


Oh, I'm not saying Rudy is innocent. I don't know.

I'm more saying that this is what I believe his defense will argue.

But on the handprint, Biscotti said it didn't change anything. Rudy has always said he was covered in blood, he said he fetched towels from the bathroom in an attempt to staunch the blood(the towels do exist), he must have been holding and touching Meredith in some way. When did his handprint get on the pillow? Who put the pillow where it was? He also made the finger marks on the wall in blood which were supposed to represent AF which is what he says he thought Meredith was attempting to say.


RG handprint on the pillow I think is the wort evidence they have against him. Pillow under the victims legs? this to me suggest that whoever put it there had the intention for the blood flow to rush towards the injured neck and make death quicker. It doesn't look like helping the victim effort.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:58 am   Post subject: The Pillow   

Jools wrote:
RG handprint on the pillow I think is the wort evidence they have against him. Pillow under the victims legs? this to me suggest that whoever put it there had the intention for the blood flow to rush towards the injured neck and make death quicker. It doesn't look like helping the victim effort.


The fact is, Rudy can claim the pillow was moved from wherever it was he originally put it (according to him under Meredith's head) after he left. After all, Meredith was moved and undressed after he left so why not claim that also? Was he speaking the truth about where he originally put the pillow? That sadly, is something we may never know. But, if anyone still has it, it may be worth re-reading my original 'Crime Scene Assessment' that I wrote back in January, as that goes into the pillow in some length...although the scenario I put forward for it makes for some unpleasant reading.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:32 am   Post subject: Sky News on the T-Shirts   

Sky News reports on the 'Free Amanda' T-shirts and teddy bears for sale...and Anne Bremner:

http://tinyurl.com/4my3rc

Note: There is also a range of videos at the bottom of the page, as well as a comments section below that.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:51 pm   Post subject: Re: Sky News on the T-Shirts   

Michael wrote:
Sky News reports on the 'Free Amanda' T-shirts and teddy bears for sale...and Anne Bremner:

http://tinyurl.com/4my3rc

Note: There is also a range of videos at the bottom of the page, as well as a comments section below that.


How disgusting.
I wonder if all the prisoners and guards in jail with Knox are buying them for their friends?
Have these awful people who are selling this cheap tat sent any samples to the Kercher family?
Words cannot describe how disgusting these items and the people who sell them are.

_________________
R.I.P
Meredith Kercher.
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Offline Corrina


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:39 pm   Post subject: Odd Little Place   

I have a feeling The Cook is referring to Pete's place when she is talking about Odd Hosting. But then again, I could be wrong; Goddess knows it has happened before...

That Sky article is troubling; if the damn Murder for Profit aspect weren't heinous enough, they also have a newsletter? What on earth could that contain? Do I even want to know? Michael, can we please get a retching smilie to insert here? m-))


Last edited by Corrina on Thu Oct 09, 2008 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:59 pm   Post subject:    

More from March 2008:

Rudy says strange things


Fast translation of article referred by Brian S. at | 03.27.08 - 11:28 am |

http://www.ilmessaggero.it/ artic...z=HOME_INITALIA

Headline: Meredith, the Defence and Sollecito Family:
"Guede's Testimony is Unbelievable"

ROME (March 27) - The Raffaele Sollecito's family and defence team have counterattacked the day after the interrogation in which Rudy Guede claimed to have seen the young Pugliese and Amanda Knox in the house of the crime the night when Meredith Kercher was killed. Marco Brusco, one of Sollecito's defence lawyers, announced that he has requested the minutes [of the questionning session]: "We shall wait to read them", the lawyer stated, "but if the leaks are confirmed, it would be the case of an unlikely story told by an unreliable person. Until we know the content of the interrogation, we can not express a clear position."

Lawyer Luca Maori, another Sollecito defence lawyer, is also waiting to read the minutes. "If what has emerged so far corresponded to the truth," he said, "this would be the act of a desperate person."

The Sollecito family has also taken a position. In a note they have announced that they have learned about "statements defined as classified". "Statements which if confirmed, " says the note, "are clearly unfounded and unreliable either because of the bad weather OR delay [poor timing] [intempestività ??] in the time of arrest and statements previously made by Guede, or due clearly to the timing as regards upcoming procedural dates.

Also, for the Sollecito family "meanwhile, it causes us shock and surprise to learn, always through the media, of a strange satisfaction expressed by investigators and the Prosecutor regarding statements made during an interrogation which was predetermined and agreed upon." The note ends saying that the Sollecito family, "reserves the right to take all appropriate action".
-
Kermit | 03.27.08 - 12:37 pm | #


Haloscan




Witness: I Heard Amanda Knox at Murder Scene

...The accusation was made by fellow murder suspect Rudy Guede during an interview with the prosecutor on the case Wednesday, according to Italy's national news service ANSA....In previous statements he claimed to have scuffled with a knife-wielding white man but says he was unable to get a good look at him because the man was wearing a hood.

ANSA reports that during the interrogation, Guede told investigators that he now recognizes the man's face to be that of Sollecito

He also told investigators for the first time that he clearly heard Knox's voice in the doorway, although he does not claim to have seen her in the room where the murder took place, ANSA reports. Nevertheless, Guede did describe for police the clothes that Knox and Sollecito were wearing that night, the news agency reports.

ANSA reports that Guede gave police an alleged motive for the grisly slaying: that Knox and Kercher hated each other and on the night of the murder, Kercher had accused Knox of stealing 250 euros from her dresser.

As the suspects ran away, Guede told police that he heard Sollecito yell out, ''I found that black guy, they'll blame him!'' ANSA reports.

ANSA's version of the interrogation could not be immediately confirmed, although an investigative source confirmed to ABC News that Guede has been grilled.

"It was not a very long interrogation, but it was thorough. The suspect spoke freely, and he was relaxed," the source told ABC News.

In a statement released today, Knox's parents said: "Information being attributed to Rudy Guede regarding the investigation into the murder of Meredith Kercher is impossible to believe. There is no evidence to support his suggestion that Amanda and Raffaele Sollecito were present when Meredith was murdered. Guede lacks credibility just as his current statement lacks credibility.

"Guede said before that he did not see Amanda and Rafaelle that night, and is now telling a different story."

Also, one her lawyers, Carlo Dalla Vedova, told ABC News, "This is a bit suspicious. We are not worried. There is no evidence against Amanda. This gentlemen [Guede] has to explain why this statement has been made four months after he stated that he never saw Amanda and Raffaele that night [of the murder]."

Sollecito's lawyer and family scoffed at Guede's version.

"We are waiting to read the transcript," Sollecito's lawyer, Marco Brusc, told ANSA. "But if the reports are confirmed, it means that it is an improbable story told by an unreliable person."

Sollecito's family said that Guede has changed his story days before an April 1 hearing that will determine whether the three suspects will be released from jail while the investigation continues......


ABC News




Cronaca
PERUGIA: RAFFAELE SOLLECITO, NON HO MAI VISTO GUEDE
Perugia, 27 mar. - (Adnkronos) - Continua a sostenere di non aver mai visto e conosciuto l'ivoriano Rudy Hermann Guede, lo studente pugliese Raffaele Sollecito che, questa mattina, nel carcere di Terni, ha ricevuto la visita di uno dei suoi legali, l'avvocato Delfo Berretti. Lo studente, che ha appreso dagli organi di informazione le notizie in merito all'interrogatorio di Guede, ha ribadito di essere restato a casa sua la sera in cui la studentessa inglese Meredith Kercher e' stata uccisa e di non essersi recato nel casolare di via della Pergola dove si e' consumato il delitto, tra il primo e il due novembre scorso. Raffaele, apparso ''tranquillo'' al suo legale, ha quindi continuato a sostenere la sua estraneita' ai fatti affermando che, se quanto riportato dai giornali e' la realta', quanto detto dall'ivoriano ''non e' assolutamente vero''. Lo studente ha pero' espresso il desiderio di conoscere il contenuto del verbale prima di commentare ulteriormente.

Raffaele Sollecito, I Have Never Seen Guede

He continues to maintain that he has never seen or met the Ivorian Guede. This morning, Sollecito was visited in Terni Prison by one of his lawyers, Delfo Berretti. He was told of the details of the news about the interrogation of Guede. He has repeated that he was at his own house during the night Kercher was killed, and that he did not go to the house on Pergola St., where the crime was committed, between the 1st and 2nd of November. Rafaelle appeared calm to the lawyer, therefore has continued to maintain his non-involvement and in fact affirmed that what was reported in the papers is the truth, that what the Ivorian said is not absolutely true. The student has however expressed the desire to know the content of the words before further comment.
Sparrow | 03.27.08 - 2:41 pm | #


Haloscan




As for a position on April 1st? Nothing changes for us...why would it since it is thr truth. Not that we will be allowed to speak of it. The April 1st hearing is not about evidence. It is about rights and procedure and if they were observed. It is not an evidentiary hearing.
Chris Mellas | 03.27.08 - 3:25 am | #


Haloscan




Chris,

Earlier you had said that you had reason to celebrate and were in fact going to do that. Was the finding of Amanda's sweatshirt the cause for that celebration or was it other good news??
Rhonda

Rhonda,
We were celebrating our anniversary AND we had heard a rumor that Rudy was going to confess.
We were hoping that this nightmare was about to be over.
Chris Mellas | 03.27.08 - 3:27 am | #



Haloscan





I think it's fair to state that the defenses of Raffaele and Amanda held a fairly static position up until that statement by Rudy - which by the way still hasn't been leaked.

Raffaele was "apparently" feeling guilty about dropping Amanda in it. His parents were telling him to forget about her. I prefer to believe that Raffaele was actually more worried about what Amanda may say in her defense if it came down to the wire. He wasn't in love, he was scared.

Amanda's defense still maintained she was with Raffaele, whatever he might say.


Then Rudy went and said strange things.

I'm gonna try and put together what happened next and eventually lead to Raffaele's flowers.
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 3:29 pm   Post subject:    

Amanda's current position as best I can tell.

She was with Raffaele. Details of were she was with Raffaele are noticeably AWOL. However, within the last week or so her lawyers have said that according to Rudy's evidence she "wasn't in the cottage".
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 4:43 pm   Post subject:    

Yes,
It is very convenient that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito can't remember where they was at the time that Meredith Kercher was brutally stabbed in her neck.

They were so confused (why) that they thought that they were together, but then no, Amanda wasn't with me, she came back at 1am.
But then again no, I can't remamber if she was with me all night or not.
Amanda says in one version of her story that Sollecito was cleaning her ears.
Why would he be doing this?

Maybe it was because in the struggle when Knox was humiliating Meredith, the fight she put up resulted in Knox having her earlobe stud torn out which caused the bleeding from her ear that was detected on the tap in the bathroom.

The blubbering liar Edda Mellas has stated on record that her mad daughters ear was bleeding and this is why her blood was on the tap on the basin.

All my kids and my wife have their ears pierced and I have never seen any one of them bleeding from their ears in my entire life.

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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 6:04 pm   Post subject:    

DF2K wrote:
Amanda says in one version of her story that Sollecito was cleaning her ears.
Why would he be doing this?


I've got my own pet theory about this which has come about as more detail has been made available of just what Amanda said both in her diary and statements she made to the police in the days immediately following her arrest. Forget for a moment she named Lumumba, I do believe that happened simply because Raffaele had withdrawn his alibi and she had to say "something".
It may or may not be connected to Raffaele's "black man in the cottage" which Rudy claims.

Amanda recounts an evening she and Raffaele spent together. They had a shower together and Raffaele washed her hair and cleaned her ears(Quite possible since she just had them pierced. Fresh piecings do leak and there is a need to prevent infection). They had a fish dinner together before they sat on the bed and Raffaele poured out his heart about feeling guilty about his mother's suicide.

All this information dates back to the first week after Amanda's arrest, after she disowned her Lumumba staement and returned to insisting that whatever Raffaele was saying about her, she was maintaining she was with him.

My pet theory is that this evening actually happened, it just wasn't on the 1st November. Maybe a day or two before? She hoped that Raffaele would get to hear what she was claiming and could easily "remember" those events and adjust his statement accordingly so that again they would both be providing each other with an alibi. They couldn't be caught out on the detail of the events because they actually happened. But those events did in fact happen on another night.

Mateini described Knox as a very clever liar. I would suggest she is, It's just a pity for her that Raffaele just isn't in the same league. Either he didn't get to hear/understand what she was attempting or he was in thrall to his father's and Mara's attempts to disown Amanda.

This will have been eating away at Raffaele right through until March and after (he's got physchiatric problems), because he knew that in the worst case unless he backed up Amanda's evening as she described it, Amanda was going to turn on him.
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 6:40 pm   Post subject:    

DF2K wrote:
Maybe it was because in the struggle when Knox was humiliating Meredith, the fight she put up resulted in Knox having her earlobe stud torn out which caused the bleeding from her ear that was detected on the tap in the bathroom.



Amanda recounts an evening she and Raffaele spent together. They had a shower together and Raffaele washed her hair and cleaned her ears......They had a fish dinner together before they sat on the bed and Raffaele poured out his heart about feeling guilty about his mother's suicide.

All this information dates back to the first week after Amanda's arrest, after she disowned her Lumumba staement and returned to insisting that whatever Raffaele was saying about her, she was maintaining she was with him.

My pet theory is that this evening actually happened, it just wasn't on the 1st November. Maybe a day or two before? She hoped that Raffaele would get to hear what she was claiming and could easily "remember" those events and adjust his statement accordingly so that again they would both be providing each other with an alibi. They couldn't be caught out on the detail of the events because they actually happened. But those events did in fact happen on another night.




Maybe a couple of days after? Amanda did go buy those sexy knickers.
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 7:07 pm   Post subject:    

Regarding pet theories Brian,
Here is mine.
This is of course pure speculation from the facts available.
I think when Knox left Sollecito that evening (why would she go out on her own and leave her boyfriend over a holiday period?) she arranged to meet Guede for sex.
She took him back to the cottage after meeting him at the basketball court and was probably having open sex with him in full earshot of Meredith who just wanted to speak to her mother on the phone and read a bit of her book then go to sleep.
The eternally insecure and sexually naive Sollecito then turns up after his little supper and joint he'd made for himself and driven by a conscience of stoned jealousy walks in and finds his (what he thought) girlfriend having sex with a black guy.
What does he do?
He is carrying one of his "art pieces" with him and decides to do the same as his "girlfriend".
Poor Meredith (God bless her) is the only one available to have sex with him in retaliation to what he has just seen his so called girlfriend doing.
A combinaton of sexual jealousy, art pieces and a mad hateful and aroused sex crazed woman with her black sex partner then converge on the hapless and innocent Meredith, resulting in the case we now see today.

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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 7:58 pm   Post subject:    

Brian S. wrote:
Mateini described Knox as a very clever liar. I would suggest she is, It's just a pity for her that Raffaele just isn't in the same league.


I'm not sure Amanda Knox is a very clever liar. Amanda and Raffaele lied to the postal police about having already phoned the police when they unexpectedly turned up. The were both caught unawares and we were forced to lie on the spot. If they had had more time, I doubt they would have told the postal police the same story. The postal police were easily able to check whether Amanda and Raffaele had actually phoned the police and, of course, they found out they were lying.

Amanda and Raffaele then had to phone the police in attempt to prove they had phoned them. We don't know the exact details of what happened, but the postal police saw them making the call to the police. It was a stupid move on Amanda's and Raffaele's part and suggests they were panicking and not thinking clearly. By this point Amanda and Raffaele will have been suspects.

The fact that Amanda and Raffaele were writing down what they had done in a notebook at the police station is further evidence that they were panicking and trying desperately to get their stories straight. The story they agreed on about not being able to remember very much about the night of the murder because they had smoked cannabis was a really obvious lie. Amanda, in particular, completely exaggerates the effect of smoking cannabis:

"But I've said this many times so as to make myself clear: these things seem unreal to me, like a dream, and I am unsure if they are real things that happened or are just dreams my head has made to try to answer the questions in my head and the questions I am being asked."

"[i]I also know that the fact that I can't fully recall the events that I claim took place at Raffaele's home during the time that Meredith was murdered is incriminating. And I stand by my statements that I made last night about events that could have taken place in my home with Patrik, but I want to make very clear that these events seem more unreal to me that what I said before, that I stayed at Raffaele's house.[/i]"

"I'm very confused at this time. My head is full of contrasting ideas and I know I can be frustrating to work with for this reason. But I also want to tell the truth as best I can. Everything I have said in regards to my involvement in Meredith's death, even though it is contrasting, are the best truth that I have been able to think."[i]

Amanda gave the police two completely different accounts of where she was and what she was doing on the night of the murder and tried to blamed cannabis for this dramatic amnesia and confusion.

Amanda wasn't aware that her conversations were being bugged which was really naive. She further implicated herself by telling Raffaele she couldn't bear it anymore and her mother that she couldn't lie because she was there.
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:43 pm   Post subject:    

Amanda Knox is a very accomplished liar.
There is no doubt about this.
The police, the prosecution, the judiciary and indeed HER OWN LEGAL COUNSEL have stated this.
Maybe her friends and supporters are just easily led ignoramus's.
Her brief really knew he had a job on when after their first meeting he stated to the world's media that first off, she has to start telling the truth.
A lawyer simply would not state such a thing in public regarding his client if that was not the case.
He was probably relieved to get out of her company after realising she was a total mental case.

I used to laugh like hell when I named her "Amnesia Knox" in counter to "park bench" that the cooks love interest used to refer him as.
Of course the cook deleted any trace of this but I have copied everything I have posted on that awful site.
I'm still waiting Dempsey, by the way.
Whats up?
Cat got your tongue?

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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:28 pm   Post subject:    

My theory is that Meredith's murder was premeditated.

There had been several points of friction between Amanda and Meredith. Meredith was exasperated by Amanda's lack of hygeine, refusal to do her share of the household chores and her habit of bringing strange men back to the cottage. I think Amanda resented the fact that Meredith didn't like her and was jealous of Meredith's popularity. Amanda felt threatened by Meredith and her feelings of insecurity and her growing hostility towards Meredith were exacberated when Diya Lumumba asked Meredith to work for him. There had been ill between the two simmering for quite some time.

On the night of the murder Diya Lumumba texted Amanda at 8.18 pm, telling her she wasn't needed for work. I believe this was probably the catalyst for the terrible events that would ensue that evening. This text was the final straw for Amanda. The conversation between Amanda and Raffaele between 8.18 pm and 8.40 pm is key. They must have talked about ways of getting revenge on Meredith or teaching her some kind of lesson. I suspect Raffaele wanted to appear "macho" and probably suggested killing or stabbing Meredith with one of his knives. Remember he would later talk about driving over the head of one of the female judges on the case and not stopping.

By 8.40 pm they had probably agreed upon a plan of revenge. Amanda knew that Meredith would be alone that evening. The national holiday presented them with a time frame when they knew they wouldn't be disturbed by somebody else. They turned off their mobile phones at the same time at 8.40 pm because they didn't want their whereabouts to be traced. They took the knife from Raffaele's apartment and this knife was used. The knife would later be cleaned and then hidden in a shoe box in Raffaele's apartment. They deliberately took a knife from Raffaele's apartment rather than a knife from the cottage because they didn't want the trail to to lead back to someone who lived at the cottage. Meredith's murder was not the result of a game that went too far or a prank that went wrong. Meredith was humiliated and made to suffer. She was sexually assaulted and tortured with the knife before being killed by a brutal blow to the neck that left a huge gaping wound. The person who inflicted the fatal wound hated Meredith with a passion and wanted to kill her.

The mystery for me is: at one point was Rudy recruited? I don't believe Rudy inflicted the fatal wound, but he was involved. There must have also been a pact of silence between the three of them.

I might be wrong, but for me, this is the most likely scenario.
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:22 pm   Post subject:    

TM wrote:
There had been several points of friction between Amanda and Meredith. Meredith was exasperated by Amanda's lack of hygeine, refusal to do her share of the household chores and her habit of bringing strange men back to the cottage. I think Amanda resented the fact that Meredith didn't like her and was jealous of Meredith's popularity. Amanda felt threatened by Meredith and her feelings of insecurity and her growing hostility towards Meredith were exacberated when Diya Lumumba asked Meredith to work for him. There had been ill between the two simmering for quite some time.

On the night of the murder Diya Lumumba texted Amanda at 8.18 pm, telling her she wasn't needed for work. I believe this was probably the catalyst for the terrible events that would ensue that evening. This text was the final straw for Amanda. The conversation between Amanda and Raffaele between 8.18 pm and 8.40 pm is key....


I'll go along with this part of your scenario, but I don't believe the murder was ever premeditated.

Amanda didn't know that Meredith would be at the cottage. Meredith was out with her friends. Who was to know that by 21:00 Meredith would tell her friends that she was tired and set off home for an early night.

From the timeline:

2018 Patrick sends text message to AK

2035 AK text message to PL

2040** Young woman, Popovic (Polish after all (?)), arrives at RS's house to tell him she no longer needed a lift to the station. (She spoke to Amanda via the intercom (?) )

2040** Serbian student, Jovanovic, 'met' (Could do with clarification as to whether he simply passed AK, or actually engaged with her in some way). AK on Corso Garibaldi. AK and RS were at RS's flat at this time and before (per AK/RS)

2040** AK and RS cell phones turned off


I believe Amanda may have actually gone out on to Corso Garibaldi before she checked her messages and realised she wasn't needed by Patrick Lumumba. She may well have related this to Meredith and the offer of employment which could well have caused the confrontation which was to occur later that evening.

On realising she wasn't required she just turned round and went back to Raffaele's and the events around 20:40 happened. By the time they both turned their phones off they both had an unexpected empty evening in front of them.

2110 Click on RS's computer, no more activity on computer until following day.

I think it was some time after this that the mushrooms and the knife both left Raffaele's place and went to the cottage.
Maybe Amanda said she'd cook him a meal. Maybe there is an element of truth in Raffaele's broken sink. Perhaps it was blocked?? I don't for a minute think the pipe "came undone". That detail was added to explain the bleach all over his flat.

EDIT: Just a thought. Is it this possibility that makes Raffaele's prints on the fridge at the cottage so important to the prosecution??
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:01 am   Post subject:    

Before I forget, something which occurred to me the other day.

About the Albanian:

I don't necessarily believe that his evidence is 100% rubbish. I have a different take to some people on the knowledge of his hospital admission due to overindulgence. So I think do the prosecution when they get their say.

His mobile was pinged in the area of the cottage on both the 31st October and 1st November. But he has good reason for his amnesia and the haziness of the events he describes. He was on a bender and driving around blind drunk, people could well take on the appearance of black bags. He only remembers snatches of the events in amongst the blank spots. Perhaps someone in front of him at some stage used their screen washers - his mind says it must have been raining for those drops to appear on his windscreen. No wonder he had to manouvre for the breakdown when everyone else drove straight past.
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:10 am   Post subject:    

Yes TM,
I don't believe Rudy inflicted the fatal wound.
I firmly believe it was Amanda Knox with her strong rock climbing hands.
I think Knox was having sex with Rudy loudly in the house.
Same as Knox shouting out singing in a restaurant.
I think there is a lot of truth in what he says.
After all he is the only one who has actually spoken any truth on this issue.
He has said he was there.
The other two haven't.
I personally think Amanda Knox is mad and her sexuallity has landed her in jail on this issue.
We must thank God that the Italian authorities and the lovely Monica Napoleoni has put her there and taken her off the streets away from us.
My god, my little Amy could be walking around and Knox could have been near her.

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Offline DLW


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:32 am   Post subject:    

Francesco Maresca, attorney for the Kercher family, speaks out against some of the tactics and gimmick’s being used by the ‘Free Amanda’ campaign. And speaks up for the police and prosecution in this case.

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/view/54 ... noxy-knix/
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:38 am   Post subject:    

More on that knife:

After Rudy's evidence given on the 26 March, the investigators went to both the cottage and Raffaele's and removed whole bag fulls of other stuff. Amongst the the items taken was Amanda's unused cutlery which was kept in a box in her bedroom.

The knife didn't belong to the cottage. Did it match up with the rest of the cutlery at Raffaele's???

Does it match and is it missing from Amanda's set?
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 2:34 am   Post subject:    

Misreading flowers and Raffaele's intentions.

I think I'm gonna have to take the knife out of Raffaele's hands.

March 27, 2008


Witness: I Heard Amanda Knox at Murder Scene
Claims Knox and Dead Woman Hated Each Other



ABC News



ISTM that it's become apparent over the last month or two that there has been a split between the Knox and Sollecito camps.

Biscotti has said that the evidence in the 10,000 pages is particularly bad for Amanda.

The free Amanda campaign has been in full cry that it's obvious that Rudy did it.

They no longer include Raffaele amongst those cries for freedom.

What happened?



Rudy Guede, admitting the footprint in Meredith's room was probably his, is an indication that something was happening behind the scenes.



I've never had the knife in Rudy's hand but it's undeniable he was present.

If you include the cleanup there's also undeniable proof that the other two were involved without resorting to DNA tests.

But only one of them could hold the knife and I no longer think it was Raffaele.

The other is guilty of their presence at the scene and helping with the cleanup.

Rudy said Amanda was outside the cottage and he had a fight with Raffaele Sollecito who had a razor sharp knife.
He says he saw Raffaele standing over Meredith. What he doesn't say is who stabbed Meredith in the neck with a kitchen knife.

A couple of months ago Rudy said the footprint could have been his.
Raffaele's team no longer insist on pointing the finger at Rudy. They are attempting to defend him against the evidence which connects him directly to Meredith. The DNA on her bra clasp.

They don't seem to have much of a problem with the knife. They've made do without the detail which they had originally requested for the pre-trial with little or no complaint.


All those complaints are coming from Amanda's camp.

It's Amanda's team which are particularly disputing Meredith's DNA on the knife. It's Amanda's team which will have leaked the story about Raffaele's depression. It's Amanda's team which are ever more loudly pointing the finger at Rudy.

I think Amanda killed Meredith in a fight and Raffaele helped her with the cleanup.

I've got some detail to add to this theory which I'll have to post tomorrow.
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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:42 am   Post subject:    

I agree Brian.
I have thought since day one that Knox struck the fatal blow.
She had her poodle wrapped around her little finger and could make him do anything she wanted.
He was probably a virgin until he met her so a sexual relationship was new to him.
There has to be a reason why the investigators believe Meredith was on her knees facing the wardrobe while being held by her face and head.
Who was doing the holding was in my mind Knox.
The investigators are not stupid, this is not their first murder investigation - they are experts.
To me it was a hate/humiliation thing on Knox's instigation.
Charles Mudede said there was an "unnatural" sex act that took place.

It is horrible to think about but I believe Knox was in front of Meredith holding a knife to her neck while shouting orders to Guede and Sollecito to sexually assault her from behind.
The police believe the marks on Merediths face and indeed a fingerprint (thumb) on her cheek match that of Knox.
I think when Knox stabbed her in the neck Guede panicked and fled, he didn't think it would go that far.
Like I say, the murderous mouse and knife obsessed slimeball Sollecito would do anything for Knox at that time.
I do not think it was a "sex game" gone wrong. I do not believe Meredith would be party to such a thing.
It was a humiliation thing on Knox's part. This to me is obvious, Knox had her reasons, she is a sociopath and driven by her hatred of Meredith due to her being prettier, nicer, more popular and intelligent than her.
You can see all the ducks lining up in a row when you look at it objectively and Knox's statement that Meredith comes home and studies "like a good little girl" is chilling to say the least. It is pure spite.

For all the disgusting and pathetic tacky souvenir sellers and Dempsey being the head cheerleader at the front banging the big bass drum for Knox, I have yet to see or hear a statement from anyone who knew Knox in Perugia who has had anything remotely good to say about her.
Has anyone? Have I missed something?
The only people who do, are back home in Seattle.
They don't know what she was like in Perugia though, do they?

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Offline Fly by Night


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:21 pm   Post subject: When Black Friday falls you know it's got to be...   

Brian S. wrote:
The knife didn't belong to the cottage. Did it match up with the rest of the cutlery at Raffaele's???
Does it match and is it missing from Amanda's set?


Oh My! Are you suggesting that the murder weapon was Nodding Edda's favorite steak knife?
They tried to bleach off the blood. The blood disappeared, but a part of Meredith remarkably still held on.
I call this Meredith's revenge.
This knife will not be wished away.
Meredith, herself, will convict her killers.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:59 pm   Post subject: ADIMINISTRATOR NOTE   

Hello Everyone,

It seems already we've hit two pages in the main discussion thread yet again. In a very short while it's going to go back down to one page again as I'm going to raise the post tally per page (for the third time), to 300 this time. Now, I could raise it a lot higher then that, but I don't want to raise it too high in one go in case those amongst us with slower Internet connections start to struggle, especially as each page load has to load not only the text and in post pictures but avatars too. At the same time I'd rather like to keep the number of pages created as small as possible, so I'm going to keep raising the threshold by incriments and see how everyone does with them. Please let me know if any of you start to struggle with page loads, don't suffer in silence, and I'll lower the threshold again. It's just a case of finding out exactly what the happy medium is. Also, please do let me know if any of you are experiencing any issues with the site, are confused by anything or have any questions :)

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PS: Keep half an eye on the 'Forum News' forum, a post directed to everyone will be appearing sometime in the next 24 hours or so ;)

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 4:35 pm   Post subject: New Article with some Words from the Kerchers   

A new article by Central Florida's '13 News' regarding the upcoming hearings contains some words from the Kerchers:

[align=center]Judge to open hearing in case of slain UK student[/align]

"Kercher's family, in a statement on the eve of the hearing, said they hoped for justice.

"We're pleased that we've reached a new phase in the process, hoping that justice will soon be done for Meredith," said the victim's sister, Stephanie Kercher, her parents by her side.

They recalled the victim's "caring, loving nature, and laughter," and how she "loved everything about Italy." "


http://www.cfnews13.com/News/Internatio ... udent.html

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 4:49 pm   Post subject: Rectification   

Michael wrote:

Quote:
A new article by Central Florida's '13 News' regarding the upcoming hearings contains some words from the Kerchers


Actually, the date on the article is September 16 - i.e. prior to the first hearing. The statement dates from then.
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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 4:58 pm   Post subject: Outcast?   

DeathFish 2000 wrote:
I have yet to see or hear a statement from anyone who knew Knox in Perugia who has had anything remotely good to say about her.
Has anyone? Have I missed something?
The only people who do, are back home in Seattle.
They don't know what she was like in Perugia though, do they?


DeathFish 2000,

You bring up a point that has been on my mind for a long time. When FBN put up the website for the UW studies abroad in Perugia, I read through and saw that the students participating would have a meeting prior to leaving. I read a long time ago that a dozen or so students from the UW were participating when Knox went. Wouldn't it be a natural thing for the kids from the UW to gravitate to one another in a new foreign place just to get their bearings? Wouldn't Knox have hung with someone from the UW? Even in the beginning of her stay?

Also, the chocolate festival in 2007 was October 13-21. The defense blog has stressed that Knox and Meredith were "good friends" because they went to the chocolate festival together. I doubt it was only the two of them - it was probably Meredith and her English friends...and Amanda tagging along. Kermit determined that Knox probably met Sollecito around October 18, 2007 at the classical music concert. Since she "met" him at the concert, who did she go with initially? By herself?

I don't think she had ANY friends in Perugia, and she knew it. I think we would have heard from one by now! We'll know a lot more when the roommates give their testimony, and possibly some fellow classmates in Perugia. It should be very enlightening. :shock:
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:00 pm   Post subject:    

There was a TV programme last saturday on Italian tv on the case. The programme REWIND from Studio Aperto.
Here is the link to the videos is in three parts:

10/04 REWIND Delitto di Perugia Part -I- 18.28 minutes
" REWIND " " -II- 19.41 minutes
" REWIND " " -III-18.11 minutes

http://tinyurl.com/3qtwfs

Part 1, Some images I think we haven't seen before.

Part 2, you can see Meredith sister at the last press gathering speaking Italian. RS fiends from Giovinazzo his home Town some video footage of him on holidays (looking terrible) a photo of his sister Vanessa, his godfather everyone basically saying what a sensitive boy he is.

Part 3, here you can hear AK interrogation of the 17th December, Mignini asking her question and she responds sometimes in Italian most of the time in English and sometimes she cries. You can also hear RG Skype convo with his friend. His friend Giacomo Benedetti (great friend) speaks dearly of him, visits him in prison and does not believe that he ever did drugs, you can see his father with some rep from the Ivorian community, you hear Rudy saying 'I have nothing to do with this murder, I heard Meredith Scream very loudly, (the bathroom, Ipod bit) I was covered in blood I panicked thinking that I was going to get the blame and I ran... You can give me 20 years because I havent save a person, because I escape, but I don't intend to be here one single day for something I didn't do'.

Also there is the scene in the video I think Biscotti presented as evidence against Abukar Barrow -Momi- in it he says he does not speak for nothing to any media, the journalist asks him how much is 'nothing' just to get an idea and he says that last time he made some nice money and that he will require 2.000 euros.


Last edited by Jools on Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:02 pm   Post subject: THE CHESHIRE CAT   

[align=center]THE CHESHIRE CAT[/align]


With the hearings just coming up and everything poised in the balance, I feel it is in order to once again return to the CRIME SCENE and clarify the 'true context', especially in light of the fact that over recent months certain camps have been doing their damdest to blow smoke and mirrors...and to play cat and mouse with the facts...with the TRUTH. 'We' here in the 'public gallery' are the CAT to their mouse and that is what the little white cat in my signature is meant to symbolise and that white cat also chases white rabbits down rabbit holes...

Staying on theme: It is not the white rabbit we seek to catch...he merely shows us the way. Our true quarry is the Cheshire Cat, for he is the Holy of Holys...he represents the TRUTH...for TRUTH is 'always' there, sometimes in view, though oft times hidden. The TRUTH is elusive, appearing and dissapearing but it can be seen if one looks in the right place at the right time. Many assume the Cheshire Cat 'chooses' to vanish and does so at his pleasure. Not so...it's the BS, the Spin and the lies that make him vanish, but when doing so he isn't 'gone', rather he's hidden just out of focus right there in plain sight for all who have 'eyes to see' and 'ears to hear'...

Now, what all the debate and arguments, what all the DNA/forensics, what all the smoke and spin boils down to, can be summed up with one simple question; Where Raf and Amanda at the Crime Scene when Meredith was murdered, or was Rudy Guede there alone? The answer to which will alswo provide the answer as to 'who' killed Meredith. Whilst it can provide information, the court process, where BS is a currency, confuses rather then enlightens...the Cheshire Cat is most elusive there. Real illumination will not come from the courts until the beginning of the 'trials'.

And there WILL be trials, for one will be told so by a certain ginger cat over and over anytime one finds him and he NEVER lies. One shall find him lurking in many places, there one moment...gone the next. But the one place you shall 'always' find him is the CRIME SCENE, for it is there that he lives...

For some time, myself and no few others have put in no small amount of effort to highlight the PROOFS that show the TRUTH of what occured in the cottage the night and morning after Meredith's murder. The lamps, the footprints, the 'missing' footprints, the 'missing' blood, the blood spread over the sink and bidet that shows up only under chemical enhancement, Meredith being stripped 'after' her death, the simulated break-in, a locked door to Meredith's room theat she did not lock, the lack of Amanda's footprints in the cottage, the washing of Amanda's AND Meredith's clothes on high temps with bleach, the strange and 'contradictory' behaviour of the suspects in the cottage the moring after the murder, the many lies by the suspects with a 'clear' display of will to hinder and obfuscate the investigation rather then aid it. This is all 'before' full verification of the integrity of the fornsics departments verdict of the 'Knife' and the 'cut off' bra strap. Is this not enough to show that the Crime Scene was staged and cleaned in a manner that involved a great deal of calculated input of thought, effort and 'time', by more then one person?

EDIT TO ADD: And of course, let's not forget the mop/s.

Moreover, the Knox/RS Camp's excuses/explanations, often changing multiple times, to explain various forensic artifacts are in almost all cases so risable, the excuses themselves serve as evidence against them.

"Oftentimes excusing of a fault
Doth make the fault the worse by the excuse."


William Shakespeare, king john


Firstly, a little clarification on a couple of points. The BLEACH. This was always a rather damning piece of evidence if it existed. People are putting it on the back burner at the moment it seems, because the defence camps are repeatedly telling us the bleach receipts were 'old', possibly months old. Therefore, bleach cannot be shown to have been purchased on the morning of the murder and this puts to bed all talk of bleach in terms of damning evidence. Except it doesn't. Indeed, it is certainly true that it cannot be shown bleach was purchased that morning and so things look a lot better for our suspects. However, the ILE's experts are 'certain' in their minds that items and areas were bleached and for sure, that would not simply be a 'fancy' they raised in their minds because it seemed like a good idea at the time. They believe it because the crime scene is telling them so!

More then that...forget 'buying' bleach on the morning of the murder (and really, if they had bought bleach for leaning up the Crime Scene would we really have expected them to 'keep' the receipts for them anyway?), as that fact that is starting to look like a 'misfact' is taking the eye off what 'is' important: - What has NOT been contested by the defence and neither has any explanation been offered for it by them, is the fact that 'two empty bottles of bleach' were found in the rubbish bin in RS's apartment.People empty their bins, so they couldn't have been their long and these bleach products were confirmed by RS's maid that they did not come from her. Now, what would have used so much bleach, so fast, in that small little apartment that is regularly cleaned by the hired help? Why's a lad in an expensive place like Perugia, a high maintanance girlfriend like Amanda, a large pot smoking habit to support and only 40 Euros in the bank with the rent due, spending money on bottles of bleach? Must have been important.

As an interesting side note, one of the messages implied by the Knox Camp when they say so loudly and gleefully that the the bleach receipts found were 'MONTHS OLD' is that not only was bleach not purchased on the morning of the murdrer..but bleach hadn't been bought for moths full stop. This is shown to be not so...unless, it can be considered normal behaviour for a young male college student to keep 'two' bottles of bleach stashed in his cupboard, in a small place where space is also a premium and he has a lady that cleans for him anyway, for...well...for something that may just 'happen' to occur that requires 'two' bottles of bleach.

Now, the final little point I'd like to make. Anywhere one meets members of the Knox Camp and the subject of 'cleaning' is raised...they will say scornfully 'There was no clean-up!' If, all else that the Crime Scene has shown us is 'still' not enough, let us clear this right up before we go into the hearing. In fact, I'm just going to reach out and grab that great big Ginger Tom standing right by Meredith's wardrobe and let him speak and show the TRUTH, something which some of us may have seen but forgotten and let those who would deny there was a clean-up look at it very long and hard:

EDIT: I'm posting this here instead of in the 'Description' slot for the photo since for some reason it's insisting on chopping my paragraph of text there in half:


These are the fronts of Meredith's wardrobe doors - note that the light seems rather 'Pink' - that's because it is, they are under UV light and those claw marks running down the doors were made by Meredith's bloody hands, desperately trying to claw herself up, as she lay face down on the floor in front of them...a horrific image. These bloody marks can only be seen under luminol and UV light - hence, the clear TRUTH that they were CLEANED, cleaning, not only elsewhere in the cottage but in the so called 'Murder Room' itself and it wasn't done by Rudy!!! So, whilst the wrangling goes on in court and the spin comes out on the steps after, the TRUTH, once being armed with it, makes all that spin 'vapourise' leaving only clarity.

As an aside, is it me and I'm going mad, or can I see the letters 'a' - 'f' written out in blood on those doors?

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"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Last edited by Michael on Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:45 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:10 pm   Post subject: Re: Rectification - Rectified   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Michael wrote:

Quote:
A new article by Central Florida's '13 News' regarding the upcoming hearings contains some words from the Kerchers


Actually, the date on the article is September 16 - i.e. prior to the first hearing. The statement dates from then.


Oops, my mistake...that's what comes of my attempts at 'multi-tasking'. For some reason I'm getting 'old' news suddenly coming in on my news alerts, but still, it's my fault, I should have 'checked' the dates and didn't because I'm trying to do a 100 things today. My apologies for the error everyone.

Michael

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"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:58 pm   Post subject: Re: THE CHESHIRE CAT   

Michael wrote:
With the hearings just coming up and everything poised in the balance...


I don't think everything is poised in the balance. The case against all three suspects is formidable. At last week's hearing Renato Biondo, from the forensic police, said, “We are confirming the reliability of the information collected from the scene of the crime and at the same time, the professionalism and excellence of our work.” Paolo Micheli wanted independent confirmation that the forensic scientists had followed all the correct procedures and their findings were completely accurate. Renato Biondo provided this confirmation unequivocably.

The crime scene wasn't "violated", the possibility of Meredith's bra clasp being contaminated was excluded by Patrizia Stefanoni and she also confirmed that Meredith's DNA was on the blade and Amanda's DNA was on handle of the knife that was hidden in a shoe box at Raffaele's apartment. The defence lawyers were putting on brave faces, but it was a truly disasterous day for Amanda and Raffaele. Raffaele has been placed in Meredith's room, removing her bra and Amanda's DNA is on the knife that was used to kill Meredith. A knife that had been intentionally cleaned and hidden at her boyfriend's apartment. A knife that was placed on Meredith's bed sheet and that left a bloody trace on it. A knife that matches the wound on Meredith's neck. It is the murder weapon and it has been placed in Amanda's hand.

Amanda's and Raffaele's lawyers theory that Meredith's murder was committed by a lone wolf will be demolished when the photographs of the three different sized bloody footprints are shown to Paolo Micheli. Three different sized bloody footprints that match exactly the different shoe sizes of the three suspects.

Amanda and Raffaele will definitely stand trial for the sexual assault and murder of Meredith. They will have to explain to the judge, jury and the world's media why they lied deliberatley and repeatedly to the police. They will have to explain not only why they gave conflicting statements about the night of the murder, but also completely different accounts of where they were and what they were doing. Amanda won't be able to shake her head, cry and refuse to answer any more questions. Raffaele won't be able to cry off sick.

All three suspects will be found guilty of all the charges they face.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:29 am   Post subject: Re: THE CHESHIRE CAT   

Hi TM,

I quite agree with you. Let me rephrase it. Things 'appear' in the balance, at least to those who don't look beneath the surface or have an agenda to peddle. This is simply because the voices of the 'Defences' tend to be louder and they put out more spin and to the press, make every defeat sound like a victory (and as you say, the last hearing was certainly a defeat for them), whilst agents for the prosecution tend to be lower key.

A good example of this is the knife. It hasn't been discredited and indeed, the expert confirmed it was tested properly and the DNA 'is' that of Meredith. However, if you were to listen to the defence camps or read their supporters on the other blogs, one could come away thinking the knife is more or less thrown out, if one didn't know better. But then, they listen to and take at face value the propeganda at which point they help it's purpose br spreading it around further.

They argue this, in part, on the basis that the forensics department are not providing them with certain specific data relating to the DNA and speak of this as though it is some crime in and of itself, or at the least, serves as evidence in itself that the DNA is 'weak'. Of course, they're missing the point. The hearing is not in essence for the 'defences', it's for the 'judge' and if he requires a spercific piece of data for 'himself' in order to come to a just conclusion, he is able to demand what he wants. It is 'he' that decides what is relevant to this process. The hearing is not for the defences to provide their 'defence', rather it is for them to answer questions that can be answered, i.e. providing credible explanations for their clients, to bring any 'irregularities' to the attention of the judge, who 'only' has to judge if there is enough to go to trial. Once in trial, the defences can argue the 'semantics' on the data as much as they like, that's what trials are for. Rudy though 'is' on trial, however, he's on the fastrack version, so serious limitations are put on the wrangling his team can do.

Likewise, on a certain other blog, some commentators have been listing what they reckon (as fact) to be now 'out', which includes in the list witnesses like Nara, simply because the judge did not deem it necessary for her to be cross examined and accepted her statement in writing instead. Likewise, the prosecution does not 'have' to provide evidence for the clean-up...that will be their 'choice' if they feel the judge needs further convincing and if not, they can save that for the trials. But, just because they have not as of yet does not mean it's 'out'...it's fully in the whole time the prosecution state it as a factor within their case. They will have to prove it at some point, but they don't 'have' to prove it 'now'. Some people out there, mainly ones supporting the Knox Camp it must be said, do seem to be confusing this process with a 'trial'.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


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Offline DeathFish 2000


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 5:44 am   Post subject:    

Hi everyone,
In about an hour I'm going to Kazakhstan and then onto China for a couple of weeks, I will be back around the 25th.
I don't know what type of net connection I'll have but I'll try and keep my eye on things.
Justice for Meredith.

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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:05 am   Post subject: Re: When Black Friday falls you know it's got to be...   

Fly by Night wrote:
Brian S. wrote:
The knife didn't belong to the cottage. Did it match up with the rest of the cutlery at Raffaele's???
Does it match and is it missing from Amanda's set?


Oh My! Are you suggesting that the murder weapon was Nodding Edda's favorite steak knife?
They tried to bleach off the blood. The blood disappeared, but a part of Meredith remarkably still held on.
I call this Meredith's revenge.
This knife will not be wished away.
Meredith, herself, will convict her killers.



Meredith murder suspect tells 'secret prison diary' her DNA was on his knife because he 'pricked her ' while cooking

Murder victim Meredith Kercher's DNA was found on a kitchen knife because suspect Raffaele Sollecito had once "pricked" her with it while cooking, he has claimed in his leaked prison diary....Raffaele Sollecito has written a prison diary in which he says the DNA of Meredith Kercher was only on his knife because they had cooked together

In one entry Sollecito referred to the eight-inch black handled knife, which was found in his apartment, with DNA from Meredith on the tip and Knox's near the handle.

He wrote: "The fact there is Meredith's DNA on the kitchen knife is because once when we were all cooking together I accidentally pricked her hand. I apologised immediately and she said it was not a problem."

However police have spoken to several of Meredith's friends who have all told detectives that Meredith, from Coulsdon, Surrey, had never been to Sollecito's house......


The Daily Mail

Raffaele didn't say he "pricked" Meredith whilst cooking a meal at his place.

One of the girls' gripes about Amanda was she didn't do her fair share of the washing up and housekeeping.

Maybe Raffaele had used his culinary skills to cook Amanda a meal at the cottage before?

Maybe they left without washing the dishes?

Maybe Raffaele's sink was blocked and he'd been cooking at the cottage for a couple of days until his housekeeper came back from her holiday to clean it for him?

Maybe the cottage knives were dirty? Everyone was on holiday. Meredith had been partying and probably didn't feel like doing the washing up whilst Raffaele and Amanda were cooking there.

That's OK said Amanda. I've got this nice shiny kitchen knife here in a box in my room.

Maybe Raffaele said he'd cook Amanda a mushroom meal back at the empty cottage to console her upset on the probable loss of her job at Le Chic?





Brian
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:46 am   Post subject:    

From Damian's blog:

Sollecito Wants His Freedom Back

Meredith’s last phone call was made a few minutes after 10pm. But at that time the English student may have already been dead. A call was made from her English mobile phone, for a few seconds, to an English bank, It (the bank d) starts with the letter ‘A’ and it was the first number in her phone book. If she made the call of her own will, she would have added the UK prefix to the number in the phone book. So she could have made the call by accident or the murderer may have before getting rid of the phones soon after. The phone was picked up by the cell that covers Elisabetta Lana’s house in whose garden they were found. This second hypothesis has been put forward by Sollecito’s lawyers, Giulia Bongiorno, Luca Maori and Marco Brusco, in a technical report added to the acts of the preliminary hearing which aims in particular to lessen the indications of guilt to support their request for the release of their client. This request will be made officially on October24 at the end of the defence counsel’s address. According to Sollecito’s lawyers, Meredith could have been killed before 11pm, the time given by the coroner, an element which would shorten the time range of the crime.....


La Nazione


No mention of Amanda by Raffaele's lawyers.

And not exactly bad for Rudy Guede either.

He says he tried to help Meredith before he ran from the cottage around 10:30 and bumped into some people(who are A1 witnesses) on the way.

This on it's own won't win Raffaele's freedom. Maybe he has more to add when he gets his say?

And his involvement in the cleanup and crime scene staging is beyond dispute.
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 4:00 pm   Post subject:    

I've just read the most shockingly biased article about the case yet in Marie Clare:

http://www.marieclaire.com/world/articl ... ent-murder

Here's the opening paragraph:

"Studying abroad should have been a grand adventure. Instead, Amanda Knox has spent a year in jail, accused by a corrupt legal system of murdering her roommate."

The journalist makes the wild and unsubstantiated accusation that the Italian legal system is corrupt. This is comment is clearly libellous.

"Amanda has been sitting in prison for a year now, while the Italian press dissects her past and her behavior, framing her as a sex-crazed ugly American who didn't properly mourn the death of her roommate. Did she kill her, or is Amanda but the latest in a long line of women deemed guilty in the court of public opinion for acting in ways that subvert the script? Be it the U.K.'s Kate McCann or Australia's Lindy Chamberlain, both of whom were judged harshly in the disappearances of their daughters, a woman's demeanor and the way she grieves is sometimes her greatest crime."

Have the Italian press spent a year dissecting Amanda's past and her behaviour? I certainly haven't seen one reference to Amanda being an "sex-crazed ugly American" in the Italian press and I've been reading the Italian articles for months. The journalist, Jan Goodwin, seems very confused. Amanda is sitting in jail, not because she has been found guilty in the court of public opinion for acting in ways that subvert the script, her demenour or the ways she grieved, and Amanda showed no grief whatsoever over Meredith's death, but because the evidence against her is overwhelming. The judges at the Italian Supreme Court told Amanda: "The clues against you are serious." The judge at the preliminary hearings in the case, Claudia Metteini, also noted that there were serious clues of (Amanda's) guilt.

The article goes onto to say:

"On the morning of November 2, everything changed. As she remembers it, Amanda returned home from a night at Raffaele's and found a few drops of blood in her bathroom and the door to Meredith's bedroom locked."

Jan Goodwin should have researched her story more carefully. If she had seen the photograph of the blue bathmat in the bathroom, she would know that it wasn't "a few drops of blood", but actually a bloody footprint. It's very apparent that Jan Goodwin knows very little about the case:

"They broke into Meredith's bedroom and discovered her lying in a pool of blood, half-naked, her windpipe crushed in an attempted strangulation and her throat partially slashed."

There were three knife wounds on Meredith's neck; two lesser wounds, but the final one was delivered with such brutal force, it left a huge, gaping hole in Meredith's neck. There was nothing partial about it. Whoever inflicted the fatal wound wanted to kill Meredith.

Jan Goodwin's article is deliberately misleading, so as to give the impression that there isn't much evidence against Amanda and Raffaele:

"Three days after the murder, the senior police investigator on the case sought out Amanda and Raffaele to question them. When he discovered them casually eating in a pizza restaurant, he grew suspicious. Soon after, they were arrested. "That was how it started," says Paul Ciolino, an American forensic examiner who was the primary investigative adviser for the Innocence Project, which has helped exonerate more than 215 prisoners jailed in the U.S.

The police were suspicious of Amanda and Raffaele because they both lied to the postal police from the very first time they spoke to them. They told the postal police they had phoned the police and were waiting for them. Raffaele admitted in his witness on 5 and 6 November they hadn't actually phoned the police before the postal police turned up unexpectedly:

"I tried to force the door but couldn't, and at that point I decided to call my sister for advice because she is a Carabinieri officer. She told me to dial 112 (the Italian emergency number) but at that moment the postal police arrived." He added: "In my former statement I told you a load of rubbish because I believed Amanda's version of what happened and did not think about the inconsistencies."

CCTV footage shows the postal police arriving at the cottage at 12.35 on 2 November. Raffaele phoned the police at 12.51 and 12.54.

Paul Ciolino also incorrectly claims that:

"These two kids, never in trouble, classic middle-class college students — it's ludicrous that they were implicated."

Amanda Knox was arrested for hosting a party that got seriously out of hand with students high on drink and drugs throwing rocks into the road, forcing cars to sweve. The students then threw rocks at the windows of neighbouts who had called the police. The situation was so bad that reinforcements had to be called. Amanda was fined $269 (£135) at the Municipal Court after the incident - Crime No: 071830624.

Amanda's friend Madison Paxton makes the following comment:

"The papers have called her a drugged-up skank, and that's just incredibly untrue. She respects her body; she doesn't like to party too much."

I think Amanda's neighbours would wholeheartdely diasgree that Amanda doesn't like to party too much. Amanda herself made the claim that she had smoked so much cannabis she (conveniently) couldn't remember much about what happened on the night of the murder. She doesn't sound like somebody who doesn't like to party too much to me.

"In grade school, Amanda's soccer teammates nicknamed her "Foxy Knoxy" because she would crouch down like a fox on the playing field. European tabloids picked up on the name, calling her "Foxy Knoxy: a sex-mad American party girl."

European newspapers, including the quality newspapers, called Amanda by the nickname she called herself. She would have known at the age of 20 that the word "foxy" has sexual connotations. Amanda made a concious choice to use a nickname with sexual connotations. The newspapers were simply using the nickname that she used.

Jan Goodwin then repeats more propaganda that has been proven to be untrue:

"After her arrest, Amanda was detained by the police and interrogated for 14 hours."

Amanda was being questioned as a witness and the claim that her interrogation lasted 14 hours is demonstrably untrue.

I'm struggling to find a single fact in this paragraph:

"Since then, the police investigation has been chaotic and bumbling. Take the alleged murder weapon, a cooking knife that belonged to Raffaele. Amanda's DNA was found on the handle — not surprising, since she used it for cooking — and officials said Meredith's DNA had been found on the blade. But new DNA evidence released shows that after 183 attempts to match the material on the knife to Meredith's DNA, there is only a 1 percent chance that it is hers, making it unlikely that the knife is, in fact, the murder weapon."

At last week's hearing Renato Biondo, from the forensic police, said, “We are confirming the reliability of the information collected from the scene of the crime and at the same time, the professionalism and excellence of our work.” Paolo Micheli wanted independent confirmation that the forensic scientists had followed all the correct procedures and their findings were completely accurate. Renato Biondo provided this confirmation unequivocably.

The crime scene wasn't "violated", the possibility of Meredith's bra clasp being contaminated was excluded by Patrizia Stefanoni and she also confirmed that Meredith's DNA was on the blade and Amanda's DNA was on handle of the knife that was hidden in a shoe box at Raffaele's apartment. The defence lawyers were putting on brave faces, but it was a truly disasterous day for Amanda and Raffaele. Raffaele has been placed in Meredith's room, removing her bra and Amanda's DNA is on the knife that was almost certainly used to kill Meredith. A knife that had been intentionally cleaned and hidden at her boyfriend's apartment. A knife that was placed on Meredith's bed sheet and left a bloody trace on it. A knife that matches the wound on Meredith's neck. It's interesting that Jan Goodwin doesn't mention that the knife was hidden in a shoe box. The claim that there is only 1 percent chance of the DNA on the blade belonging to Meredith is not surprisingly not attributed to anybody, let alone an independent forensic expert.

The following statement is outrageous and deeply offensive:

"There is also no indication that Meredith was subjected to sexual violence..."

This is a claim that has been frequently made by Amanda's Knox supporters. To suggest that there was consensual sexual activity between Meredith and Rudy defies belief. Meredith did not consent to any of the unspeakable horrors that were inflicted upon her that night.

Jan Goodwin follows a well-rehearsed and used script when outlining the case for Amanda's "innocence":

"Miraculously, Amanda did finally get a break when the Italian supreme court tossed out the results of her interrogation this past spring on the grounds that she had not been provided with a lawyer or interpreter."

What Amanda Knox's supporters invariably forget to mention is that one of Amanda's statements in which she admits to being at the cottage on the night of the murder was not "tossed" out by the Italian Supreme Court. Her letter to the police is almost identical in content to the statements that were not admitted as evidence. This incriminating letter was admitted as evidence.

Jan Goodwim should written a more balanced and objective article. She has written what is essentially a free advertisement for the Free Amanda Knox Campaign. She could have asked pertinent questions, such as why did Amanda deliberately and repeatedly lied to the police or why did Amanda and Raffaele give conflicting witness statements, but also completely different accounts of where they were and what they were doing on the night of the murder.


Last edited by The Machine on Sat Oct 11, 2008 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 4:34 pm   Post subject:    

From TM's post:

"Studying abroad should have been a grand adventure. Instead, Amanda Knox has spent a year in jail, accused by a corrupt legal system of murdering her roommate."

Alternate opening paragraph for use by anyone outside the xenophobic US media:

"Studying abroad should have been a grand adventure. Instead, Meredith Kercher has spent a year rotting in her coffin, evidence indicates she was murdered by her roommate"
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 12:14 am   Post subject: Re: When Black Friday falls you know it's got to be...   

Brian S. wrote:
Fly by Night wrote:
Brian S. wrote:
The knife didn't belong to the cottage. Did it match up with the rest of the cutlery at Raffaele's???
Does it match and is it missing from Amanda's set?


Oh My! Are you suggesting that the murder weapon was Nodding Edda's favorite steak knife?
They tried to bleach off the blood. The blood disappeared, but a part of Meredith remarkably still held on.
I call this Meredith's revenge.
This knife will not be wished away.
Meredith, herself, will convict her killers.



Meredith murder suspect tells 'secret prison diary' her DNA was on his knife because he 'pricked her ' while cooking

Murder victim Meredith Kercher's DNA was found on a kitchen knife because suspect Raffaele Sollecito had once "pricked" her with it while cooking, he has claimed in his leaked prison diary....Raffaele Sollecito has written a prison diary in which he says the DNA of Meredith Kercher was only on his knife because they had cooked together

In one entry Sollecito referred to the eight-inch black handled knife, which was found in his apartment, with DNA from Meredith on the tip and Knox's near the handle.

He wrote: "The fact there is Meredith's DNA on the kitchen knife is because once when we were all cooking together I accidentally pricked her hand. I apologised immediately and she said it was not a problem."

However police have spoken to several of Meredith's friends who have all told detectives that Meredith, from Coulsdon, Surrey, had never been to Sollecito's house......


The Daily Mail

Raffaele didn't say he "pricked" Meredith whilst cooking a meal at his place.

One of the girls' gripes about Amanda was she didn't do her fair share of the washing up and housekeeping.

Maybe Raffaele had used his culinary skills to cook Amanda a meal at the cottage before?

Maybe they left without washing the dishes?

Maybe Raffaele's sink was blocked and he'd been cooking at the cottage for a couple of days until his housekeeper came back from her holiday to clean it for him?

Maybe the cottage knives were dirty? Everyone was on holiday. Meredith had been partying and probably didn't feel like doing the washing up whilst Raffaele and Amanda were cooking there.

That's OK said Amanda. I've got this nice shiny kitchen knife here in a box in my room.

Maybe Raffaele said he'd cook Amanda a mushroom meal back at the empty cottage to console her upset on the probable loss of her job at Le Chic?





Brian





About that knife!

by Judy Bachrach WEB EXCLUSIVE May 2008


"And, as Amanda informed her parents during a jail visit, she has no idea how that large knife managed to migrate from her own kitchen to her boyfriend’s house."



Vanity Fair
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 12:31 am   Post subject: More on the relationship between Raffaele and Amanda   

March 17, 2008

Last Friday there was a get-together at the house of horrors.
All of the sudden the lawyers got a call from the police and had to go there. Some things had to be seized, which is why the presence of the parties was necessary.
Among the items seized: Meredith's purse, Meredith's guitar, Amanda's guitar, the 2 Harry Potter books, a hair-dryer, a little pot of vaseline, a sweatshirt, etc. It seems that all of this seized stuff will be tested in light of some clues provided by a witness.

The purse was not the leather one we see on the bed but a cloth purse with Meredith's i-pod and make-up kit still inside. It seems that it was blood stained. Everything will be analyzed. Blood, fingerprints, more hair, etc.

The description given by police of the sweatshirt corresponds to the one Amanda was wearing the night of the crime, which police initially said had disappeared. So we learned that that sweatshirt was inside the house after all....


From Perugia Shock.


And they picked up a case containing Amanda's cutlery which was in her bedroom, Frank.






March 26, 2008

Dr Mignini's magic touch struck again. What Rudy couldn't say in front of Gip Claudia Matteini during that seven-hour interrogation on December 7 came out like melted butter in the interview this morning before the PM, as well as the head of the Squadra Mobile Giacinto Profazio and the inspector of Squadra Omicidi Monica Napoleoni. Rudy was assisted by defense team (Biscotti-Gentile-Lombardo).
As Walter Biscotti told us last week, he wanted Rudy to be interviewed by the PM.
Today, that dream came true and his boy did not disappoint....

Unfortunately, Walter Biscotti doesn't confirm these leaks. But he doesn't deny them, either.
Dr Mignini, as well, DOESN'T DENY. He confirms that Guede was interviewed for three hours and said "interesting things".
Rudy's presumed statements are enriched with details, so they look credible to everybody.
In today's interrogation, Rudy clearly says that the man he fought with was Raffaele. He can tell now by combining the pictures he has seen with the few details he managed to catch during those brief moments of the encounter in the house of horrors. Raffaele had the knife in his hand. Amanda was also there, waiting outside the house. Rudy could hear her voice.
Rudy also provided other details about the way the two were dressed. Maybe Raffaele had the white cap and the Napapjiri jacket he described in December?[s] Details, in any case, that will be verified in the next few days.[/s]
And he suggests a motive as well. Amanda and Meredith didn't get along; they argued all the time. He confirms what he wrote in his diary, that Meredith suspected that Amanda may have stolen her some money from the drawer....


From Perugia Shock





The details of Rudy's statement were never released.

Mignini refused to supply a copy of that statement to either Amanda's or Raffaele's lawyers.

Instead he invited them to take part in a face to face to face with Rudy.

In the absence of the details of Rudy's statement, both Raffaele and Amanda teams declined to take part in any face to face.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 2:10 am   Post subject: More on the relationship between Raffaele and Amanda   

March 2008

“Don’t ever talk about the crime with Amanda”

It’s the conversation in which Raffaele says he feels bad because he couldn’t remember whether Amanda had been with him the whole time on the night of the murder. According to the father and step-mother, “Amanda got herself in trouble” (’Amanda si e’ incastrata da sola’ d). She’s in prison because of what she said, because she involved Patrick Lumumba, “who’s never been in that house, there’s no trace of him.” The parents then advise him on what he should do when he is released. He and Amanda, say the Sollecito’s - can write to each other, send each other e-mails, but they should never talk about the murder. Advice which the investigators thought was suspicious.

“Don’t feel bad about what you said”

“She (referring to Amanda) did it all for the notoriety”, the parents continue. Raffaele then gets back to details of the investigation, trying to reconstruct what happened in the days leading up to the murder saying that there are receipts for the acquisition of bleach. (which, according to the police, was used to clean the cottage and Raffaele’s appartment in corso Garibaldi.)

“Tell the psychologist that you’ve got nothing to do with it”

The young man is clearly finding things difficult in prison and has seen a psychologist. “Also in this case, the father’s partner’s reaction is precise: Raffaele, also when you speak to the doctor, you mustn’t let yourself go: “Always say that you’ve got nithing to do with this.” Just simple advice for a young man who is going through things which are too big for him?


Damian's translation - Messaggero Umbria

As if with his particular mental problems was going to take any notice of Mara?

Raffaele was depressed because he blamed himself for his mother's suicide. As if he's gonna listen to the woman who replaced her?

If Raffaele wanted to sort his head out he had to let himself go.





Amanda stays in his mind. (’un pensiero fisso’)

A relationship which continues even behind bars, 100kms apart - she’s in Capnne prison and he’s in Terni’s - even if the stress of incarceration and the trial alter emotions. After the first months of detention he continues to think about her but members of his family try to put his feet back on the ground. Both his father and his step-mother try to make him understand that his relationship with that young woman can bring nothing but trouble. During the first weeks in prison, Raffaele is unsure but the step-mother is determined..”You must stay at home, at your place…because you don’t know anything about that person…you must feel sorry for the young woman who is no more…you must feel sorry for her…”

She continues: “Imagine if you can really know what somebody is like after knowing them for 15 days…” But Raffaele still can’t believe that his Amanda is a murderer: (these are the days just after the murder) “Anyway, now I can tell you that I have doubts about the fact that she went and killed her…”The only person that calls you at the scene of the crime is her…so, with this ‘I don’t remember’, everybody is thinking about themselves…” After almost a year in prison it seems that Raffaele has his feet on the ground. He gave a grey and black account of his life to a friend who went to see him in May. He said that he can’t study because everyday his thoughts always end up there, at the fact that he remains in prison when he was hoping that the High Court would release him. In Giovinazzo, his friends had prepared fireworks for the party once he returned, but that party never took place. “I was really unlucky to have met Amanda”, Raffaele confides in his friend....



Damian's translation - Messagero Umbria

Mara tells Raffaele he must always maintain he stayed at home.

Is the psychologist helping Raffaele since he's feeling better?

He may be writing to Amanda to help himself come to terms with what happened.

Edda Mellas wasn't slow, BUT did she misinterpret Raffaele's reasons for writing?


Also, Amanda adds, her own lawyer told her that Raffaele’s attorneys have suggested that it might be a great idea for the two young people to re-unite in the same room to speak to a judge together.

“Basically you two could both return to your original story,” says her mother. “Before they started hitting you, and all the rest of it.”

“Yes, and when they said I would be going to jail for 30 years, and I really didn’t know what would happen!” says Amanda.

The prison psychiatrist came to see her, to ask how she was doing.

“I’ll tell you,” said Amanda. “I’m stuck in jail.”....


Vanity Fair


I wonder why Raffaele's lawyers wanted them in the same room together with a Judge?

Maybe not for the reason Edda hopes?

New broom


May 2, 2008

Bongiorno Giulia, What Do You Want To Be Today

Raffaele's attorneys may have almost lost their smile yesterday, when they learned that Daddy Franco wants to hire Giulia Bongiorno too in support of his beloved son.
But who is Giulia Bongiorno?.....


From Perugia Shock


Last edited by Brian S. on Sun Oct 12, 2008 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 3:02 am   Post subject:    

July 11, 2008

Prosecutors in Perugia, Italy, today requested murder indictments for American college student Amanda Knox and two others in the gruesome slaying of Knox's British roommate, Meredith Kercher....

Today's news ends a week in which Knox celebrated her milestone 21st birthday Wednesday behind bars in the Italian prison...Sollecito's lawyer, Luca Maori, told ABC News that Sollecito sent Knox flowers on her birthday — nine yellow anthuriums — along with a note that read: "Happy Birthday. I hope that justice prevails soon."

Knox's mother, Edda Mellas, told ABC News this week that her daughter told her that she received Sollecito's note, but did not mention flowers.

Sollecito and Knox have not been permitted to speak since their November arrests and are currently held in separate prisons. They have written to each other previously, according to Maori....


ABC News



The parents of American Knox, nicknamed “Foxy Knoxy” by sections of the media, have spoken to ITV1’s Tonight programme to defend their daughter ahead of her appearance in court tomorrow...

They described Knox’s former boyfriend Sollecito as seeming like “a very nice, quiet, studious young man”.

Describing their daughter’s relationship with Sollecito, Edda added: “It was a short relationship, it was two weeks into it when all of this happened but we just got the impression that he was a nice kid.”
....


The Sun
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 12:28 pm   Post subject: Re: When Black Friday falls you know it's got to be...   

Brian S. wrote:
[
About that knife!
by Judy Bachrach WEB EXCLUSIVE May 2008
"And, as Amanda informed her parents during a jail visit, she has no idea how that large knife managed to migrate from her own kitchen to her boyfriend’s house."
Vanity Fair


I had assumed that the knife was from Raffaele's apartment. If the knife is acutally Amanda's and it was taken to Raffaele's apartment where it was cleaned and hidden in a shoe box, it would be proof that Amanda played a very instrumental role in Meredith's murder with her seemingly taking the knife from her own cutlery set and, in the light of the DNA evidence, using it. Amanda and Raffaele must have taken the knife with the express purpose of cleaning it and hiding it. Also, if the knife is Amanda's, the significance of Rudy Guede's testimony becomes very clear. He must have known that Amanda took the knife from the suitcase under her bed. It's strange that the police were able to find the sweatshirt Amanda was wearing on the night of the murder after Rudy had spoken to Mignini. It makes me wonder if some kind of deal was struck between Rudy and Mignini with Rudy getting an abbreviated trial in return for providing evidence against Amanda.

I saw this old article from The Times today:

Police said that the cleaning lady at Mr Sollecito’s flat had testified that two empty containers of bleach found there had not been bought or used by her. The investigators’ supposition is that the bleach was used to clean the kitchen knife, and Mr Sollecito’s trainers, which match bloody footprints at the cottage, but on which no traces of either blood or DNA were found.

Amada and Raffaele must have also cleaned the bucket and mop at Raffaele's apartment. The bucket and mop are clear evidence that Amanda and Raffaele were involved in the clean up. I see that Candace Dempsey on her desperate defence blog is still arguing that there is no proof that there was a clean up. However, she has never offered an explanation why there wasn't a trail of bloody footprints leading up to the bloody footprint on the blue bathmat.

I'm not surprised Amanda and Raffaele pretended they had suffered dramatic amnesia on the night of the murder and then exercised their right to silence. They are not able to explain away all the overwhelming evidence against them.


Last edited by The Machine on Sun Oct 12, 2008 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 1:15 pm   Post subject:    

There’ll be no request for release: Rudy Guede’s defence team is convinced they will be able to get him acquitted....“All our efforts,” explained Biscotti, “are focused on demonstrating during the trial that Rudy didn’t kill Mez. And obviously, that he didn’t violate her. We will demonstrate this with facts.....

....Meanwhile, the Ivorian’s father has not visited his son in prison. He had travelled to the Ivory Coast during the civil war. This contributed to the Juvenile Court’s decision (which was also based on a report by the social services) to entrust Rudy initially to his aunt, who lives in Lecco and then to a wealthy Perugian family. His experience in the north in large cities (Pavia and Milan) was followed by his return to Perugia, work and the house in via del Canerino. From February to July lasy year, Rudy worked as a carer in Piscille for a woman who is nearly 100years old.


Translation of a CU story at Damians blog
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Offline Fly by Night


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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 4:44 pm   Post subject: Re: When Black Friday falls you know it's got to be...   

Brian S. wrote:
About that knife!
by Judy Bachrach WEB EXCLUSIVE May 2008
"And, as Amanda informed her parents during a jail visit, she has no idea how that large knife managed to migrate from her own kitchen to her boyfriend’s house."
Vanity Fair


It is obvious: Raffaele snuck out, killed Meredith, brought back the knife, pressed it into her hand, and then hid it in a box. All while Amanda slept. Not hard to imagine them squirming miserably inside those feeble little minds of theirs only to discover that they had to quickly fall back on a stupid claim of failing memory, all fogged up from smoking dope: "I really want to help you and this is my truth and my reality all as I imagine it, but you need to understand that these things are like a dream and I can't be sure of what is really real". Amanda: your best pal Meredith was just brutally murdered - give us a break and help us out here. Well, their actions and responses in the days following the murder said it all really. Finally, Amanda and Raffaele had to stop talking because there was no way to answer the growing list of questions without telling the truth.

This "large" knife, owned by Mellas/Knox, is a HUGE piece of evidence and it's no wonder that people have been trying to deny it exists, claim it is not the murder weapon, discount its relevance, and otherwise make it go away ever since it was found. But, this is the murder weapon, everyone knows it, and that's why they lie about it and then lie about it some more. It's a stain that can't be bleached away so go ahead, make a fool of yourself, lie about it all you want. It's only a matter of time: Meredith will have her revenge.
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Offline Fly by Night


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 5:10 pm   Post subject: Re: More on the relationship between Raffaele and Amanda   

Brian S. wrote:
Amanda stays in his mind. (’un pensiero fisso’)...


And in Rudy's. I'm certain that this has gone on like it has because it is a kind of ugly, twisted lover's triangle. While Rudy and Raffaele sit around trying to figure out what the f#@k happened Knox still struggles to manipulate and psych her way out, leaving her lawyers to figure out what might actually be a plausible defense. But this dream is over, and I'm sure it's very hard for her to come to the realization that she never quite had control over everything, as she imagined.
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Offline Bluetit


Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:01 am

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Location: France

PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 5:58 pm   Post subject:    

From Damian'blog (Corriere dell’Umbria. 12.10.2008)

" From February to July last year, Rudy worked as a carer in Piscille for a woman who is nearly 100years old."


This bit of information (if accurate) is tantalizing.

I wonder what kind of carer he proved to be. Quite a decent one, would be my guess -- but who knows ?
How did he get the job ? Why and how did he quit (did the old lady have to leave her home ?) ?

I hope we soon get further details.

If the old lady is still clear-minded, perhaps she could be interviewed ... Or her family might have some contribution to make ?
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:46 pm   Post subject: A TC post by Kermit from last June   

Kermit wrote:
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:18 am Post subject:
VERY fast and dirty, but readable translation of the main Messaggero article (linked above)

Headline in upper middle of the page:

"Together under the shower after the crime"
The prosecution: Amanda's and Raffaele's bloody (foot) prints on the (shower) mat"

Saturday, 21 June 2008

by ITALO CAMIGNANI
and VANNA UGOLINI

The latest reconstruction of what happened the night in the house on Via della Pergola, after Meredith's murder, is provided by the investigators on a page out of the ten thousand that make up the "415 bis", namely the investigation closing report. For the police and the prosecutor who led the investigation, Giuliano Mignini, that evening after the murder Rudy escaped, while Amanda and Raffaele, however, thought to clean up the whole room and the house. In the first place, they cleaned themselves, having a shower in the bathroom of Via della Pergola, while Meredith was in a pool of blood, covered by a duvet. The prosecution contends this hypothesis after examining the barefoot tracks in the house. They know that two persons were walking that night in Raffaele's [yes, the article says that, it must be an error] house and their feet were slightly stained by blood. Two prints are compatible with the feet of Amanda, the other two with those of Raffaele. Then, after the shower, the two, according to the reconstruction made by the Prosecution, took measures to clean up the whole house with bleach, except for the room where the young English student had been killed. [These measures went] from the staging of the robbery to the absence of any of their own prints in the home.

But the defence of Raffaele Sollecito picks up, however, a point in their favour. A month ago Rudy asked to make a spontaneous statement. It says that on the evening of the crime against Meredith "I was wearing a pair of shoes Nike brand number 45 and a half of which I got rid of in Germany because I was scared, I threw them away into a clothing collection container. You have found the empty shoe box in my house in Via Canerino. That shoeprint in Meredith's bedroom could be mine".

That shoeprint had been considered by forensic police investigators to be compatible with Raffaele Sollecito's gym shoe, which is size 42.

Then Rudy Guede again tells the version provided on March 26 reiterating that he recognized Amanda Knox by her voice after after the crime, in person. [K: don't know if I got if right: sia dalla voce che, dopo il delitto, di persona] . He describes again the male subject, reiterating that a police lineup / confrontation could be useful. He adds that, on the kitchen table, when he came into that house and then fled for fear there were no objects, such as CDs and then saw through pictures, things such as the black lamp in Meredith's bedroom. In front of the police Rudy says that not think that the lamp was there, because he remembers a beam of light coming from another direction.

The police also consider important the presence of a blue lamp with a pink button that was Amanda's and was, instead, discovered in the room of Meredith. The police also asked Rudy whether, once he had entered into the house, he had noticed if the washing machine was running or whether Meredith had later started it. The police, when they entered the house of the crime found that the washing machine had been running recently and was full of garments which clearly, it seems, mainly belonged to the victim. According to the police, the murderer washed all the clothes that could have been soiled in the room of the crime and which could be prints.




I've posted it here because I think it's very relevent to what is happening now.

It took me ages to find it, I didn't want to lose it.

I'll be back to it shortly but I must make a cuppa. :lol:
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:01 am   Post subject:    

Hi Brian,

Thanks for finding that article. The different sized bloody footprints that were found in the cottage demolishes Amanda's and Raffaele's lawyers claim that Meredith's murder was committed by a lone wolf. I hope Kermit's excellent powerpoint presentation of the different bloody footprints is transferred to this site.

Contrary to what was claimed by Candace Dempsey on her desperate defence blog, Rudy never admitted that it was his bloody shoe print in Meredith's room. I can't say I'm surprised that she twisted the truth. It is not the only time.

Amanda's lamp in Meredith's room is further proof that there was a clean up. I hope Michael reposts his theory about the two lamps on this website too. It would have been impossible for Rudy to clean up the bloody footprints that led from Meredith's room to the bathroom, clean up all the bloody water that was spilt in the bathroom, wipe away almost all of Amanda's fingerprints and stage the break in, by finding a large rock, breaking the window and ransacking Fiolmena's room, when you consider he was seen fleeing the cottage at around 10.30 pm. Rudy would have had to return to the cottage at around 12 pm the next day to put Meredith's clothes into the washing machine.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 2:47 am   Post subject:    

http://perugiamurderfile.net ... d.php?id=2


This is a link to Michael's image of the wardrobe doors. You can magnify and play with it in the viewer when it opens.

Michael wrote:
These are the fronts of Meredith's wardrobe doors - note that the light seems rather 'Pink' - that's because it is, they are under UV light and those claw marks running down the doors were made by Meredith's bloody hands, desperately trying to claw herself up, as she lay face down on the floor in front of them...a horrific image. These bloody marks can only be seen under luminol and UV light - hence, the clear TRUTH that they were CLEANED, cleaning, not only elsewhere in the cottage but in the so called 'Murder Room' itself and it wasn't done by Rudy!!! So, whilst the wrangling goes on in court and the spin comes out on the steps after, the TRUTH, once being armed with it, makes all that spin 'vapourise' leaving only clarity.

As an aside, is it me and I'm going mad, or can I see the letters 'a' - 'f' written out in blood on those doors?


Michael,

I've been looking at this for the last day or so.

In Rudy's diary he says that Meredith was moaning and trying to speak, but because her mouth was full of blood he could only make out "af, af, af".

He puts that in lower case and I think he's attempting to explain the phonetic sound the two letters make together.

He then says he tried to write the "two letters" on the wall.

I don't think it's best to look at those two possible letters on the wardrobe door (where Meredith was lying at that time) as being lower case. If I picture them as capitals. The "A" with a rounded top between the two flowers on the left hand door and the "F" below it and below the level of the two flowers then it seems to me that it's entirely possible they are what they appear. In his diary Rudy has a tendency to make the bar of the F cross to the left hand side of the vertical. I find it best to magnify the image slightly and then stand back a few feet from my screen. It looks to me like:


A
F



Rudy will have told the police were he tried to write those letters.

What do other people think?
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:15 am   Post subject:    

But the defence of Raffaele Sollecito picks up, however, a point in their favour. A month ago Rudy asked to make a spontaneous statement. It says that on the evening of the crime against Meredith "I was wearing a pair of shoes Nike brand number 45 and a half of which I got rid of in Germany because I was scared, I threw them away into a clothing collection container. You have found the empty shoe box in my house in Via Canerino. That shoeprint in Meredith's bedroom could be mine".


TM wrote:
Contrary to what was claimed by Candace Dempsey on her desperate defence blog, Rudy never admitted that it was his bloody shoe print in Meredith's room. I can't say I'm surprised that she twisted the truth. It is not the only time.



This is my point.

The date of this story is the 21st June. Just after the 10,000 pages were released to the defences. Raffaele's people were in there collecting their stuff the day before.

The story says Rudy asked to make a spontaneous statement about a month before. That would be around the middle of May.

This footprint didn't matter to Rudy. It may or may not have been his. There is plenty of other evidence that he was in that room. He himself says he was there.

BUT it mattered to Raffaele. If the scientifica were struggling with measurements because the footprint was incomplete then the only evidence left placing him in the room is the DNA on Meredith's bra clasp.

More on this tomorrow.
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 11:07 am   Post subject:    

Papa Sollecito gives an interview to City today?. here is the link to the news story on Umbria Left.

(Google Trans.)

http://tinyurl.com/3s6htz

"Raffaele is now worst than ever, he does not understand why he is still in prison but he remains confident that his situation will soon change"
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:10 pm   Post subject:    

Something which has just occurred to me.

I'm not aware of any prosecution witness who is saying that Rudy Guede and Raffaele Sollecito knew each other.

I know in the early days people were saying that they lived near to each other and the truth is they must have passed each other on the street.

But it's likely until Amanda came along they moved in entirely different social circles.

Unless there was some kind of drug connection, is it possible that they are both speaking the truth when they say they don't know each other?

This is relevent to understanding what happened and likely to the proceedings in court.

How often have total strangers been involved in a murder together??
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:34 pm   Post subject:    

Candace Dempsey has posted this on her desperate defence blog:

I have now watched all three parts of the ITV video.

It lists the holes in the prosecution case:
1. No murder weapon
2. No established time of death
3. No motive
4. No proof that Meredith had sex that night
4. No established link between Rudy Guede and his supposed conspirators. And who is going to prove this Toto/aka Park Bench, the man to can sit on a bench and see around walls. This should be even better than the Albanian witnesses. You can read about him here


She forgot to add to each point: "in the opinion of Amanda's family or defence team." She states her opinion as if it were fact. She can't count either :lol:

1. It is quite clear the double DNA knife is the murder weapon. The forensic scientists from Rome confirmed last week that it IS Meredith's DNA on the blade and Amanda's DNA on the handle. Renato Biondo, who was not involved in the investigation, confirmed that Patrizia Stefanoni's investigation had been carried out correctly and the findings were accurate. I think their opinion carries far more weight than a certain Curt Knox who claimed it wasn't Meredith's DNA.

2. Meredith's time of death has been estimated to be at approximately 11 pm on 1 November. I can't follow Candace's Dempsey's logic that not knowing the exact time of death is somehow a hole in the prosecution's case. Talk about clutching at straws.

3. Meredith's brutal murder was an utterly senseless act. Not knowing what possessed the murderer to kill Meredith does not mean that this is another hole in the prosecution's case. The motive would seem to be a twisted hatred and jealousy of Meredith. Rudy and Raffaele hardly knew Meredith. We know that Amanda and Meredith did not get on and they had clashed a number of times.

4. The prosecution does not claim that Meredith had sex that night. Besides, that would mean the sexual activity was consensual which it clearly wasn't. The prosection claims that there was manual or genital penetration because Rudy's biological matter was found on a vaginal swab.

5. Candace Dempsey gets it wrong 5 out of 5 times. There ARE established, irrefutable forensic links between all three suspects. They were all at the cottage on the night of the murder. The prosecution haven't alleged a conspiracy either.


Last edited by The Machine on Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:53 pm   Post subject:    

I want to revisit DeathWish 2000's pet theory of what happened on the night of the murder:

DeathFish 2000 wrote:
I think when Knox left Sollecito that evening (why would she go out on her own and leave her boyfriend over a holiday period?) she arranged to meet Guede for sex.
She took him back to the cottage after meeting him at the basketball court and was probably having open sex with him in full earshot of Meredith who just wanted to speak to her mother on the phone and read a bit of her book then go to sleep.
The eternally insecure and sexually naive Sollecito then turns up after his little supper and joint he'd made for himself and driven by a conscience of stoned jealousy walks in and finds his (what he thought) girlfriend having sex with a black guy.
What does he do?
He is carrying one of his "art pieces" with him and decides to do the same as his "girlfriend".
Poor Meredith (God bless her) is the only one available to have sex with him in retaliation to what he has just seen his so called girlfriend doing.
A combinaton of sexual jealousy, art pieces and a mad hateful and aroused sex crazed woman with her black sex partner then converge on the hapless and innocent Meredith, resulting in the case we now see today.


I might be wrong, but I'm sure I read that Rudy told a friend he was going to meet Amanda on the night of the murder. It appears that they both headed towards the cottage at approximately the same time. It does seem strange that Rudy would go to the cottage without having arranged to meet someone there and I don't think Meredith would have agreed to meet him anyway. I'm certain that Amanda was the reason for Rudy's presence at the cottage. She might have bumped into Rudy at the basketball courts and arranged to meet him back at the cottage, thinking that Meredith wouldn't be back until much later. I've always thought that Amanda was furious with Meredith after finding out from Diya Lumumba that she wasn't needed at Le Chic and knowing that he had asked Meredith to work for him. Perhaps, something else happened that really flipped Amanda over the edge and caused her to fly into a murderous rage. What if Meredith caught Amanda with Rudy and then Raffaele turned up shortly afterwards? This would have really compounded a nightmare scenario for Amanda; she might have felt that she had lost her job because of Meredith and possibly Raffaele all in the same evening. Maybe, Meredith made an ironic remark.

Rudy might have felt angry with Meredith too because she had thwarted his plans with Amanda. I don't think we will ever know what really happened that night. The only thing that is certain is that all three were at the cottage and all three played active roles in the horrific events that took place.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 11:54 pm   Post subject:    

TM,

Rudy said he told the friend he was going to meet "a girl". Who he was hoping to meet and where is open to conjecture.

If it was Amanda, it wasn't by appointment. There are no phone calls between them and Amanda was supposed to be working that night, so she wouldn't have made any arrangement to meet him anywhere but Le Chic.

Link to a translation of Rudy's German Diary

It's best if you view it with the powerpoint version.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:39 am   Post subject: I'm just sayin'   

TM wrote:

Quote:
Candace Dempsey gets it wrong 5 out of 5 times. There ARE established, irrefutable forensic links between all three suspects. They were all at the cottage on the night of the murder. The prosecution haven't alleged a conspiracy either.


Personally, I'm waiting to see exactly what the prosecution's case is before I decide whether or not it has holes in it. The judge's ruling on Rudy's role in the murder of Meredith Kercher will be of vital importance as well, and that hasn't been disclosed yet. As for the knife not being the murder weapon, that seems to be one of the things the prosecution and defense are fighting over. Did I miss the judge's ruling on that? All I have seen are leaks and confident interpretations by all parties on all sides. As for the various witnesses, only a handful actually appeared and were heard in the pre-trial phase.

I am increasingly wary of what is published on English-language blogs and in the English-language press. The article in Marie Claire is fairly typical and it is appalling--in particular the photos. What was Edda Mellas thinking? Is this the price one pays for a story in Marie-Claire which is, after all, a fashion magazine that only occasionally dabbles in personal stories involving women?

I also visited Frank's blog recently, and noted that Charlie Wilkes

(a) does not feel welcome here and
(b) is now claiming that the t-shirt campaign has nothing to do with the Knox/Mellas family/friend support group.

First of all, Charlie was not banned. He was suspended. I have not received a single message from him since I informed him of his status; I guess he is not really interested in joining us or even in knowing why he was suspended. It doesn't sound to me like he's very eager.

Second, the t-shirt campaign with the cafepress.com online store was started by Madison Paxton and friends if I'm not mistaken. The anonymous Italian woman who picked it up and ran with it had ready-made t-shirts, mugs, teddy bears and so on at her disposal, because these items had already been created. It would be astonishing if this group of friends had not consulted the Knox/Mellas family at all before launching its campaign, which seems to be an offshoot of the Free Amanda and Rafaele (sic) t-shirt effort.

I would be happy to stand corrected about any of these matters. They may be minor, but I think accuracy is important.

For example, is it Ed Heavey or Mike Heavey who wrote a four-page letter to ensure fair treatment for Amanda Knox? It makes a difference.
If Anne Bremner is not being paid by the Knox family, then who is paying her? Has she been promised anything in return for her services?
It is is important to know.
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Offline Tara


User avatar


Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

Posts: 1010

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:43 am   Post subject: KNOX's PHONE RECORDS (according to iw)   

Hi Brian -

I thought I'd post the cell phone data for AK's phone activity that the defense blog posted. I assume she got this information from the Knox/Mellas family. A couple of things jump out to me; why did she call Meredith's UK phone first rather than the phone she specifically used in Italy, and if Knox was really concerned and wanted to leave a message explaining to Meredith the reasons for concern, wouldn't just ONE call be at least 1 minute long? Instead, she completed two calls withing ONE minute. A fast talker in more ways than one. :roll:

From the Seattle PI Defense Blog:

Quote:
#195811Posted by Candace Dempsey at 10/11/08 9:33 p.m.

K.B. And perhaps I could have explained it better! Here you go:

*12:07 Amanda calls Mez's UK phone.
*12:08 Amanda calls Filomena.
*12:11 Amanda calls the Italian phone that Mez had borrowed from Filomena.
*12:11 Amanda calls Mez's UK phone again.
*12:12 Filomena calls Amanda.
*12:20 Filomena calls Amanda.
*12:25 Postal police arrive. (They now say)
*12:34 Filomena calls Amanda.
*12:35 Postal police arrive (they originally said)

Now, when did Raffaele call police?
*12.50. Raffaele calls his sister in the carabiniere
*12:51. Raffaele calls carabiniere. They ask him to call back.
*12:54. Raffaele calls carabiniere again
*1:00. Filomena Romanelli arrives at apartment with two friends.
*1:05. Postal police arrive (Raffaele's team says).
1:15. Police break down door to Meredith's room and discover her body under a duvet.

Filomena remembered that first call from AK as coming in around 12:20 p.m., so RS is not the only one who gave confusing answers. Seems like they could have simply looked at their cellphones to see what time the calls came in, but perhaps there is a reason why they didn't.


Edited to add this question: Why was Laura never called? Tara :?


Last edited by Tara on Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:44 am   Post subject:    

Hi Brian,

I've just read Rudy's diary and there was a line that literally leapt off one of the pages (21):

"I am asking myself how is it possible that Amanda could have slept in all that mess and took a shower with all that blood in the bathroom and corridor."

Rudy accurately described how the bathroom and corridor definitely looked before the clean up. The question is: was Rudy aware that a clean up had taken place when he wrote this line? I don't understand how Rudy would have known that there was a lot of blood in the bathroom, which there was, if he had fled the cottage shortly after Meredith was stabbed. The bathroom floor could have only got covered in blood during the clean up and not immediately after Rudy found Meredith bleeding to death.
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Offline Tara


User avatar


Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

Posts: 1010

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:09 am   Post subject: RS Diary   

Looking at Sollecito's diary, he states the following:

Quote:
...In the end I think that the only thing to do is kick in the door of
Meredith's room. We try, but I don't succeed, then I call the cell of
my sister and she tells me to call 112. I call and leave the name of
Amanda as the address and try to explain briefly the situation. They
say that I would have to call again. We pause to wait outside and
suddenly there are two types who tell us to be the postal police

seeking Filomena, as they had found two mobile phones and a number
belonged to Filomena. For Amanda comes to mind that these phones were
Meredith's and I ask the police to break the door...


http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dczj4fg3_0ghwmwgc9

Since the postal police arrived at 12:25pm, does this mean they were at the cottage for almost 30 minutes before running into Sollecito and Knox? According to RS, he didn't run into the police until he and Knox stepped outside before the second call back to 112?


Last edited by Tara on Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Tara


User avatar


Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

Posts: 1010

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:20 am   Post subject: OFF TOPIC!!   

Hey!

How come I can't be in the Karma Klub with a plus or minus sign next to my karma? :cry:
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:28 am   Post subject:    

TM wrote:
I don't understand how Rudy would have known that there was a lot of blood in the bathroom...


Because he himself was responsible for some of it.

He says he came from the large bathroom(it had his poo) and after his scuffle with Raffaele went to Meredith. Twice he left her to get towels from the small bathroom. He says he was covered in blood. He must have left blood all over the place. There must have been a trail of blood from Merediths room into the corridor and bathroom. I also assume his hand was bleeding. There is also some suggestion that the struggle with Meredith did not take place solely in her room. There was a postcard on the floor just inside Filomena's room. It came from Meredith's room and had her footprint on it. The suggestion is that it stuck to her foot during the struggle and was carried there. The floor in Filomena's room nearby it had also been bleached.

I think some of this detail is responsible for the fact that the police have created six?? possible scenarios for how the struggle and murder took place. There was a fight and a struggle which moved around a bit before ending up by the wardrobe.


EDIT: I think there are 167 or 197, I've seen some such figure(the forensic department in Rome complained), items of forensic evidence. How many have we seen? How many haven't we seen? The leaked footprints, fingerprints, Rudy's poo and the DNA samples can't even be anywhere near the half of it. I suspect there are quite a few strategic bleach residue samples.

Interesting fact: Florine and chlorine residue not exposed to light remains in nooks and crannies even on apparently polished metal. The cutting edge and the gap between handle and blade on a knife and gaps in tiles must hold a relative ton of it. There are patents issued on methods to totally remove these residues but they require liquid CO2 and the like.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:18 am   Post subject: Re: OFF TOPIC!!   

Tara wrote:
Hey!

How come I can't be in the Karma Klub with a plus or minus sign next to my karma? :cry:



Hey Tara

But you are. I can see your plus and minus but I can't see my own.

Perhaps the software writers think people might cheat and vote for themselves.

:lol:
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Offline IM


Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:38 am

Posts: 23

PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:51 am   Post subject: House Guests   

On the Italian tv show REWIND, they stated that the boys downstairs said Rudy was a frequent guest at the flat of the girls upstairs, therefore he knew them and they knew him and now are pretending to not know each other for what reason?
IM
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Offline ddude


Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:30 am

Posts: 6

PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:45 am   Post subject: Bleach on food utencils   

Maybe KindAss the Cook can ignore these questions:

Why would someone use bleach on utencils that would be used for food preparation? Isn't bleach deemed toxic to ingest? Seems to be an overkill (no pun intended) to use bleach to clean a knife when simple detergent and water is mostly customary, yes? I would enjoy hearing all the ways she uses bleach in her kitchen, but I'm sure she'll squirm then have a bout of that Seattle Senility which seems so prevalent in the U.S. Northwest...

Strange that a wayward food knife doesn't end up in someone's utencil drawer, but instead stashed away in a box. Doesn't seem like an "innocent" place for it to wind up, does it? And if the rest of the utencils don't display a similar taint of bleach, well:

Squirm, baby, squirm!

I think Amanda talked to Rudy at the BB court

I think Amanda already suspected that PL wasn't going to need her that night (holiday, post-big party night and her gradual layoff). The texts were just formalities and possible red herrings to help discount any suspicions of premeditation...

IMHO
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Offline ozzie


User avatar


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 7:55 am

Posts: 23

PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:44 am   Post subject:    

I think Brian stated something similar last week but all the talk over the last few months about robbery being involved as a motive had me wondering whether it wasn't about cash but more about the boys pot downstairs -

Amanda suddenly found herself not working at Le Chic that night and knew everybody was out of the house and perhaps she was to meet Rudy to score some pot as she'd run out - they then decide to help themselves to the boys stash downstairs (using the keys that had been left in Meredith's care) and were caught in the act by Meredith coming home.
A huge fight between the two women ensues ('drugged up little tart" is stated by Meredith) with Amanda pleading with Meredith not to tell the other flatmates what she was up to and in the middle of it all Raffaele turns up to see why Amanda has been gone so long. The fight escalates and Rudy helps them to subdue Meredith in some way (Amanda holds a knife to Meredith) while Rudy 'attempts' sex only to realise he can't do it and freaks out. Maybe Amanda threatened Rudy and this is when he receives the small cut to his hand. He leaves the room and Amanda inflicts the final blow in anger.

Everybody is running around from room to room panicking and Rudy then tries to help Meredith before running away. I've always thought Raffaele found himself coming to Amanda's defence in the fight and like a fool he helps her hold Meredith down - I think it was Amanda who stabbed Meredith in an out of control type 'rage'. Then of course the reality sets in and they set about the 'clean up' and the staged break in/robbery.
I've always thought Rudy didn't name them because he thought they'd plot together and blame him, so he didn't dare name them instead he stated they weren't there which sounds suspicious anyway.

I just want to state that I don't think the women liked each other due to their obvious differences of lifestyle. I don't think the murder was premeditated but instead Amanda found herself in a chaotic situation and feared being exposed.
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