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VIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, April 09 - May 22, 09

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:35 pm   Post subject: VIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, April 09 - May 22, 09   

VIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, April 09 - May 22, 09






This is the main discussion thread regarding the achievment of truth and justice for Meredith Kercher and her family. Meredith, barely 21 years old, was brutally murdered in her own home on the 1st November 2007 whilst studying in Perugia, Italy.

To read the previous main discussion thread, please view VII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Feb 28 - April 09, 09

Michael (Co-Administrator/Moderator of Perugia Murder File)

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Last edited by Michael on Fri May 22, 2009 3:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline MikeMCSG


Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:14 am

Posts: 207

PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 2:01 pm   Post subject:    

Jumpy

To be honest I can't see RS's sister remaining in the force if he goes down regardless of the side investigation. It would simply be too uncomfortable (if it isn't already) to be related to such a notorious criminal.
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Offline Catnip


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Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:40 pm   Post subject:    

Hi Sunshine!
Welcome to the board.

In response to your post (way back here link),
I did some Googling on the Letkemann/Orlewicz case and I can see the similarities -
the behaviour and demeanour, the cruelty, the kind of thought that went into the post-murder
events, and so on.

There is one difference that stands out: neither Knox nor Sollecito have "broken"
and confessed (even though their multiple inconsistent "alibis" are looking more like soap
bubbles than cast iron so far - perhaps the defence counsel can make something more meaty of
them?).

It's almost as if they are enjoying the game too much to stop, leading everyone on a merry dance,
as the saying goes.

Following up a coincidence in the Letkemann case, I ended up googling +November +gruesome
+murder to see how many there might be (too many!) but it did reveal that, in the background,
amongst all the cases, there is, like a backdrop, the beginning of an idea that morals might be a learned skill,
and that young people involved in murder might be "testing the
water" and have gone too far, or never learned the morals in the first place, or, more significantly,
they have reached the age where things once forbidden (like beer, sex, or what-you-will) are "allowed"
because they are now grown up, and therefore by the same logic, lying and being cruel, rude, and
sadistic are also "allowed" - how would they ever learn that even adults have to "draw the line"?


The Machine wrote:
Here's a link to a very interesting article in The Times about two teenage friends who killed
their best friend because they felt like it:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 769427.ece
link to post


Hi to The Machine,

The young girls in the article were trying to "explain" why they murdered
their housemate and "feeling like it" was just one thing they threw into the pot.
A lot of people "feel like" doing things, but something stops them actually carrying them out. I
think the "something" is a layer of thinking that requires physical and emotional nurturing
and nourishment, and it may even (it seems) be switched off or dialled down by various things.

In the Western Australian case, the girls had taken ice (methamphetamine) the night before, they
were a couple and very much emotionally bound together, their friend was annoying (as in, really
annoying), they had practised on a kitten, all three were really young at the time, living alone
unsupervised, and so on - a whole nexus of things with some large overlaps with the Perugia
murder - except, interestingly, they confessed they did it, whereas AK/RS/RG have "confessed"
everyone else but them did it.


In the old days here in Australia, each murder was reported on the front pages and in the
traditional style, the name, age and occupation were given for the murderers. After a while of this, it
became obvious there was a pattern, and people began asking, "Why is it always the abattoir
worker who is the murderer?" But after abattoirs closed down or became more mechanised, the
stories faded away.

Lancelotti's rhetorical strategy is always interesting.

Her name always reminds me of how Amanda and Raffaele could almost be walking through a secondary
world built up from Penna's poetry: he wrote L'ombra e la luce (Shadow and Light),
Stranezze
(Strangenesses), Il viaggiatore insonne (The sleepless traveller),
Segreti
(Secrets), Confuso sogno (Confused Dream) and Peccato di gola, which I
can't even begin to translate because it reminds me too much of what happened to Meredith.
link

Alternatively, the lives of Blessed Angela of Foligno and her self-effacing redactor 900 years
ago have some intriguing thematic parallels with the A&R saga, like how Angela lived
una vita "selvaggia, adultera e sacrilega" ("a 'wild, adulterous and sacriligeous' life" - Wiki).

However, this is starting to get off topic: see
link
link

The end result, happily! :D , coming out of your Lancelotti response, is that I came across
the Archbishop of Perugia's November 2007 sermon, and a few other things, that are worthy of translation.
Thanks. I always like a good translation.
I'll post them up when I can.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:57 pm   Post subject:    

Catnip wrote:

Quote:
they had practised on a kitten


This is absolutely revolting. :twisted:

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:03 pm   Post subject:    

Catnip wrote:

Quote:
I did some Googling on the Letkemann/Orlewicz case and I can see the similarities -
the behaviour and demeanour, the cruelty, the kind of thought that went into the post-murder
events, and so on.

There is one difference that stands out: neither Knox nor Sollecito have "broken"
and confessed (even though their multiple inconsistent "alibis" are looking more like soap
bubbles than cast iron so far - perhaps the defence counsel can make something more meaty of
them?).


I brought up the Letkemann/Orlewicz case with Charlie several months (and haloscans) ago. It might be interesting during this lull to take a look at our exchange. Naturally, Charlie did not want to admit there were any parallels. Same with Leopold and Loeb.

In some ways, every crime - like every unhappy family - is different from every other. There may be similarities, but there will also be limits to comparison. What bugged me the most about Charlie's attitude at the time was his willingness to use other cases to argue for false confession and innocence, his total unwillingness to allow any less flattering comparisons and his denial that this sort of comparison never proves anything. It is just food for thought.

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Offline Catnip


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Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:04 pm   Post subject:    

MikeMCSG wrote:
Jumpy

To be honest I can't see RS's sister remaining in the force if he goes down regardless of the side investigation. It would simply be too uncomfortable (if it isn't already) to be related to such a notorious criminal.


Hi Mike,
Is the side investigation the phone conversation that caused a political storm in parliament?
I think I'm going to have to index all the posts so I can find things and link threads.

Also, the Panorama interview with Sollecito senior (that Jools, I think, put up in February) has him mention that Vanessa helped to choose the experts in her brother's case. I wouldn't expect there to have been a conflict of interest.
She did advise her brother to call the police. On the other hand, media liabilities anywhere in the world
tend to end up being put out to pasture by the powers that be.
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Offline mojo


Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:31 pm

Posts: 225

PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:28 pm   Post subject:    

don't know if this has been posted, but it looks as though it's rather recent.

just started reading it myself.....from truTV -- formerly crime tv

Murder in Umbria: The Murder of Meredith Kercher
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Offline sunshine


Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:16 pm

Posts: 6

PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:34 pm   Post subject:    

Hi Catnip, thank you for responding! I could not agree with you more.. .It does seem like the two of them are playing a “game” that gives them too much joy to stop playing now.

I also agree with you about these young people almost testing boundaries to see how much they can get away with and morals having to be ‘learned’. I think that Amanda pretty much knew what she could get away with here in the states – Not much. Her parents are here, there are authority figures to answer to at school, etc. Also she had been in trouble with the law in the states before. I think that she was trying to get away from all forms of authority (or at least as many as she could ie: parents, school authority [hence the non-accredited study abroad program], etc.) to see what she could do on her own. I think that most young people her age have similar mentalities (ie: moving from their parents’ homes to college apartments/dormitories) yet not so sick and disturbed. The difference between Amanda, Raf, Letkemann and Orlewicz and the rest of the young people their age is that most young people their age have been taught morals and have consciences. Most young people moving from their parents home intend to ‘get away with’ things like underage drinking and staying out late. I also do not believe that any of these people (AK/RS/JPO/AL) thought about the consequences of their actions. If they had thought about the consequences they would never have been caught (or never would have committed the crime in the first place) because with narcissistic personalities such as that…. Because as they see it, it is their lives that have been ruined by this awful tragedy and the victims are left out.

Also I do see that the big difference between this case and the Orlewicz/Letkemann case is that no one has “broken down” or admitted involvement in the killing of Meredith. However, in the Letkemann case (just from what I have seen!) there was some remorse shown by one of the defendant’s – Alex Letkemann. I think that terrible tragedies like this occur only when minds such as these “get together” – meaning one dominant/truly evil mind and one or more easily manipulated/disturbed mind(s).

On a side note, I like it that Lancelotti questions everything. That is how we learn. I too question a lot of what has been said about this case (as I am sure that so do many of you) because there is so- much misleading/wrong/misinformation out there.

Thank you again to everyone for providing such a great source of reliable information on this case. I probably would still think that AK and RS were innocent had I never found this site full of reliable information and healthy debate. :D
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Offline sunshine


Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:16 pm

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:39 pm   Post subject:    

Also in the Letkemann case, Letkemann didn't filp on Orlewicz until the 11th hour. The were originally co-defendants just like AK and RS. Maybe we still have hope for one of them flipping on the other and admitting to a more minimal involvement in the crime, although I highly doubt it.
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Offline Jools


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Location: Spain

PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:26 pm   Post subject:    

Another 48 Hours show schedule for Saturday. There is a short video promo in this link by Peter Van Sant.
Further attacks on prosecutor Mignini while Preston continues to promote himself.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/04/ ... 9950.shtml
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Offline Pensiva


Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 4:30 pm

Posts: 2

PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:28 pm   Post subject: Off-topic condolences   

Please pardon that my first post is off-topic, however, I can’t help but say something about the terrible natural tragedy in l’Aquila and surrounds.

We all have been so deeply involved in watching and analyzing the human behavior, contrivances, political motives, psychological tricks and moral degradations affecting this case. Although many posters here are not living in Italy (except Nicki and a few others), still, a natural disaster has struck the country in which everything revolves in this case, everything that brings us here - from the murder to the aftermath, the reporting, the political maneuvers. Were Perugia to have been hit, we’d soon be aware that nothing trumps all our woes but Mother Nature. In no way is this meant to distract from the seriousness of the conversation here, but perhaps for the case, the call for dignity and respect due to the Kercher family, general media attention away from Perugia in these days is good. The earthquake is also a reminder of our state as human beings, our fragility, and our capacity to rebuild.

As a long-time lurker, my heart goes out to all in the l’Aquila area, and to any of our loyal Italian readers who may not post.
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Offline stewarthome2000


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Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:47 am

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Location: Perugia, Italy

PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:30 pm   Post subject: 48 hours   

Saturday April 11, 2009

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/04/ ... 9950.shtml

14-hour interrogation!!! hah
Struck during interrogation! Mama mia!
Doug Preston...here we go again...
The Prosecutor depends on an Italian blogger that talks to a dead priest!
aiya.... this will be good.
Let's send the "82nd airborne over to Italy to get this girl"... I am still laughing.

Don't miss it Sat night. 11th.
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Offline stewarthome2000


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Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:47 am

Posts: 152

Location: Perugia, Italy

PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:34 pm   Post subject: ooops   

Jools wrote:
Another 48 Hours show schedule for Saturday. There is a short video promo in this link by Peter Van Sant.
Further attacks on prosecutor Mignini while Preston continues to promote himself.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/04/ ... 9950.shtml



Che veloce Jools! You published the same just 4 min before me...
Got me beat!... hehehehe we must have the same alerts. Cheers!
Funny stuff huh?!
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:50 pm   Post subject:    

SH2000 wrote:

Quote:
Jools wrote:
Another 48 Hours show schedule for Saturday. There is a short video promo in this link by Peter Van Sant.
Further attacks on prosecutor Mignini while Preston continues to promote himself.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/04/ ... 9950.shtml



Che veloce Jools! You published the same just 4 min before me...
Got me beat!... hehehehe we must have the same alerts. Cheers!
Funny stuff huh?!



This should be entertaining.

Shout-out to Pensiva: Thanks for reminding us that people are suffering loss and devasation in Italy. It is heartbreaking to see. My thoughts and solidarity are with the people of the great country of Italy.

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Offline Jools


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

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Location: Spain

PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:54 pm   Post subject: Re: Off-topic condolences   

Pensiva wrote:
Please pardon that my first post is off-topic, however, I can’t help but say something about the terrible natural tragedy in l’Aquila and surrounds.

We all have been so deeply involved in watching and analyzing the human behavior, contrivances, political motives, psychological tricks and moral degradations affecting this case. Although many posters here are not living in Italy (except Nicki and a few others), still, a natural disaster has struck the country in which everything revolves in this case, everything that brings us here - from the murder to the aftermath, the reporting, the political maneuvers. Were Perugia to have been hit, we’d soon be aware that nothing trumps all our woes but Mother Nature. In no way is this meant to distract from the seriousness of the conversation here, but perhaps for the case, the call for dignity and respect due to the Kercher family, general media attention away from Perugia in these days is good. The earthquake is also a reminder of our state as human beings, our fragility, and our capacity to rebuild.

As a long-time lurker, my heart goes out to all in the l’Aquila area, and to any of our loyal Italian readers who may not post.


Hi Pensiva and welcome,

It is very sad to see the devastation caused in l’Aquila and the surrounded area. It is a very tragic situation with so many people dead, seems the count is gone up to 270 and still lots of them missing and thousands have been made homeless.

I was just reading about the latest comments on the tragedy from the usually arrogant Berlusconi.
Veramente vergognoso!

The Italian prime minister, Silvio Berlusconi, today sparked controversy when he said the 17,000 people made homeless by Monday's earthquake should think of themselves as being on a "camping weekend". "They have medicaments. They have hot food. They have shelter for the night," he said.

"Of course, their current lodgings are a bit temporary. But they should see it like a weekend of camping."
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Offline petafly


Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:08 pm

Posts: 278

Location: Switzerland/Germany

PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 6:03 pm   Post subject:    

A couple of thoughts i had today:

Perhaps RS and AK planned to scare the shit out of Meredith on Helloween, with a really well done, tasteless Helloween joke. But they weren't able to pull it off because Mez wasn't available or just didn't come home. All the work, perhaps with costumes and tools (knives?), all the pleasant anticipation, all for nothing. F_ck! Now Amanda and Raffaele had plenty of time to think about how it could have been. What fun they'd have had. And then Amanda said: "You know, what i really want to do with her is _______!" and rang a bell in Raffaeles brain. Perhaps they talked the whole night what ghastly things they'd do with Meredith if they could.

The next evening, they just learned that they're free this day, Amanda said: "Let's do it now. Mez is alone today." She didn't specify what exactly she meant, Raff didn't ask her. Everything happened very quick. Phones off and go! They didn't want to think about it, they just want to do that!

Quote:
Jools wrote:
Another 48 Hours show schedule for Saturday. There is a short video promo in this link by Peter Van Sant.
Further attacks on prosecutor Mignini while Preston continues to promote himself.

Man, we muppets in old europe can't watch this. It seems we have to die uninformed :cry:
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Offline BoneDawg


Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 3:58 pm

Posts: 39

PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 6:56 pm   Post subject:    

Amanda Handprint on Meredith's face? (as per Murder in Unbria story).

Anyone have any info on this? haven't heard about this peice of evidence yet!
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Offline FinnMacCool


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Location: Cionn tSáile, Poblacht na hÉireann

PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 6:56 pm   Post subject: Official timeline of November 2, 1200-1315   

For this timeline, I take the opposite approach to that of Judge Paolo Micheli. Micheli accepts the claims of the communications police that they arrived at the cottage at around 1230. (He sees this as corroborated by video footage showing them arrive into the car park at 1235 on a camera whose clock was ten minutes fast). However, my starting point is that the police are not telling the truth and that the CCTV footage has been wrongly interpreted. I assume that the police did not arrive at the house until after Raffaele Sollecito made his emergency call at 1254. I make no judgment about why the police did not tell the truth – possibly a simple mistake on their part, possibly a deliberate lie. What matters is the timing.

So, in the record below, I accept that the phone records are accurate and that they provide a useful frame in which to fit the other narratives. As the most accurate subjective narrative, I accept Amanda Knox’s email to her friends and family, sent November 4, 2007. I accept judge Paolo Micheli´s report where it reports plain facts. I accept police claims only where these can be verified by an independent source.

Around noon – the patrol sets off from the Comando di Polizia.

Two Communications Police agents (Michele Battistelli and Fabio Marzi) leave Police HQ and set off for the cottage. They already know that two phones have been found, although only one has been deposited at HQ.
(source – Micheli’s report explains how the patrol was mandated after the phone call from Sra Lana’s daughter saying that a second phone has been found. The second phone is not brought in until 1246)

Location of Amanda Knox at 1207: Raffaele’s house.

Amanda has returned there after noticing some strange things at the cottage (“door was wide open”; “blood in the bathroom”; unexpected turds in the toilet). She’s brought the mop back to Raffaele’s place, and they’ve cleaned up the spillage.

after we had used the mop to clean up the kitchen i told raffael about what i had seen in the house over breakfast. the strange blood in the bathroom, the door wide open, the shit left in the toilet. he suggested i call one of my roommates, so I called filomena. (source: Amanda Knox email)

1207: Amanda calls Meredith’s UK phone (source: Micheli’s report)

the first time i called the english phone is rang and then sounded as of there was disturbance, but no one answered. (source: Amanda Knox email – although she misremembers it as following the 1208 call to Filomena)

1208: Amanda calls Filomena (source: Charlie Wilkes)

“The 12:08 call was completed and lasted for just over a minute. This was when Amanda told Filomena that she had found the door to the cottage open and noticed blood in the bathroom.” (source: Charlie Wilkes.)

filomena had been at a party the night before with her boyfriend [Marco Zaroli]… she also told me that [Laura Mezzetti] wasnt at home and hadnt been because she was on business in rome. which meant the only one who had spent the night at our house last night was meredith, and she was as of yet unaccounted for. filomena seemed really worried, so i told her id call meredith and then call her back. i called both of merediths phones the english one first and last and the italian one between. (source: Amanda Knox email)

"She said in English, 'There's something strange.' She described how she had found the door open, and some traces of blood, that she had taken a shower and was about to go for Raffaele to get him to come to the house. I immediately asked her if she knew where Meredith was, and she replied, ‘I don’t know’.” (source: Filomena’s testimony, quoted in Il Messaggero, February 7, 2009)

1211: Amanda calls Meredith’s Italian phone - duration of call 3 seconds (source: cellphone records)

it just kept ringing, no answer ] (source: Amanda Knox email)

1211: Amanda calls Merediths UK phone again -duration of call 4 seconds (source: cellphone records)

this time an english voice told me her phone was out of service. (source: Amanda Knox email)

Location from 1212 to 1218: en route to the cottage.

These times are a guess. I’ve allowed one minute for them to gather their things, and five minutes to walk there.

1212: Filomena calls Amanda back, but gets no answer. (source: Charlie Wilkes; not mentioned in Amanda Knox email.)

I tried to recall Amanda but she did not respond. (source: Filomena’s testimony)
raffael and i gathered our things and went back to my house. (source: Amanda Knox email)

Location at 1218: Amanda and Raffaele arrive at the cottage.

1218-1220: checking the living room and kitchen

i unlocked the door and im going to tell this really slowly to get everything right so just have patience with me. the living room/kitchen was fine. looked perfectly normal. i was checking for signs of our things missing, should there have been a burglar in our house the night before. (source: Amanda Knox email)

1220: Filomena calls Amanda. (source: Charlie Wilkes; not mentioned in Amanda Knox email.)

filomenas room was closed, but when i opned the door her room and a mess and her window was open and completely broken, but her computer was still sitting on her desk like it always was and this confused me. convinced that we had been robbed i went to lauras room and looked quickley in, but it was spottless, like it hadnt even been touced. this too, i thought was odd. i then went into the part of the house that meredith and i share and checked my room for things missing, which there werent. (source: Amanda Knox email)

1234: Filomena calls Amanda. (source: Charlie Wilkes; not mentioned in Amanda Knox email.)

"We spoke to each other for the third time and she told me that the window in my room was broken and that my room was in a mess. At this point I asked her to call the police and she told me that she already had." (source – Filomena’s witness statement, quoted by Candace Dempsey)

Then I called her again and she told me that the house was open and the window of my room was smashed. I asked her if she'd called the carabinieri and she said she already had. ((source: Filomena’s testimony)

1235 to 1246: knocking on Meredith’s door.

then i knocked on merediths room. at first i thought she was alseep so i knocked gently, but when she didnt respond i knocked louder and louder until i was really banging on her door and shouting her name. no response. panicing, i ran out onto our terrace to see if maybe i could see over the ledge into her room from the window, but i couldnt see in. bad angle. i then went into the bathroom where i had dried my hair and looked really quickley into the toilet. in my panic i thought i hadnt seen anything there, which to me meant whoever was in my house had been there when i had been there. (source: Amanda Knox email)



1240: Raffaele receives a call from his father. (67 seconds)

After 1234: Filomena calls Marco Zaroli, who calls Luca Altieri.

Filomena, shopping at the Fiera dei Morti with Paola, is not worried for the blood, she thinks someone could be menstruating. But for the theft she's panicking. So much panicking that she has problems even in remembering where her car is parked. Better calling Marco and telling him to go there before her. Marco calls Luca, who has a car, and they drive there. (source: Frank Sfarzo, February 7, 2009)

1246: Amanda calls her mother in the US, Edda Mellas. (source: Charlie Wilkes; not mentioned in Amanda Knox email.)

1247 to 1250: running downstairs and trying to break down Meredith’s door.

i ran outside and down to our neighbors door. the lights were out but i banged ont he door anyway. i wanted to ask them if they had heard anything the night before, but no one was home. i ran back into the house. in the living room raffael told me he wanted to see if he could break down merediths door. he tried, and cracked the door, but we couldnt open it. it was then that we decided to call the cops. (source: Amanda Knox email)

1250: Raffaele calls his sister.

he first called his sister for advice and then called the carbanieri. (source: Amanda Knox email)

I call the cell of my sister and she tells me to call 112. (source: Raffaele Sollecito Prison Diary dated November 7, 2007)

1251: Raffaele calls 112 but they ask him to call back.

I call and leave the name of Amanda as the address and try to explain briefly the situation. They say that I would have to call again. (source: Raffaele Sollecito Prison Diary dated November 7, 2007)

The court heard recordings of two phone calls that Sollecito made to the police. “Someone has gone into the house by breaking the window. The door is locked. There are bloodstains in the bathroom,” Sollecito said in a flat tone at 12.51pm. (source: Times Online, February 14, 2009)

1254: Raffaele calls 112 and gets through to the police

In a second call three minutes later he sounded alarmed. “The door of the bedroom of one of the housemates is closed and there are traces of blood in the bathroom,” he said. (source: Times Online, February 14, 2009)

Translation of Raffaele’s conversation with 112 call operator Daniel Ceppitelli:
Hello, good morning, listen – someone has entered the house through the window and has made a big mess. There’s a locked door. The street is Via della Pergola, number 7, in Perugia. So they’ve actually got in that way – they’ve broken a window? And how do you know they got in? You can see the signs, there are also bloodstains in the bathroom. They haven’t taken anything. The problem is that there’s a locked door. There’s a lot of blood. There’s a locked door? What locked door? One of the housemate’s doors – we don't know where she is. Yes, yes, we’ve tried calling her but she’s just not answering. Okay, well send a patrol right now.
(sources: various, including Corriere della Sera, my translation; not mentioned in Raffaele’s Prison Diary)

Immediately after 1254: nonexistent call from Amanda to Filomena

i then called filomna who said she would be on her way home immediately. (source: Amanda Knox email; no phone records of this call)

1255 (or very soon after): arrival of Communications Police (Michele Battistelli and Fabio Marzi)

We pause to wait outside and suddenly there are two types who tell us to be the postal police seeking Filomena, as they had found two mobile phones and a number belonged to Filomena. For Amanda comes to mind that these phones were Meredith's and I ask the police to break the door. (source: Raffaele Sollecito Prison Diary, dated November 7, 2009, Newsweek translation)

while we were waiting, two ununiformed police investigaters came to our house.. (source: Amanda Knox email)

"After the police arrived, I brought them into the house, because I thought that they were the people that Raffaele had called. And so I showed them that the door was locked, that the window was broken." (From Amanda's interrogation by Giuliano Mignini on Dec. 17, 2008, leaked to Rewind, an Italian TV show, and quoted by Candace Dempsey).

Battistelli … said that Knox and Sollecito, whom he met at the crime scene, appeared "surprised, but calm." (source: Washington News, February 6, 2009)

I found the two defendants hugging and whispering to each other, sitting on a fence in the garden. (source: Battistelli’s testimony)

1256 to 1257: summary of events

- Battistelli explains that two phones have been stolen, and the police want to talk to their owner, Filomena Romanelli, in connection with a possible bomb hoax. Amanda Knox recognizes the numbers as belonging to Meredith Kercher.
- Amanda and Raffaele explain that there has been a break-in, through a window in Filomena’s room. The police examine this room. Battistelli believes the break-in to be fake, and mentions this to Amanda and Raffaele.
- Amanda and Raffaele explain that there are bloodstains in the bathroom where Amanda had earlier taken a shower. The police examine this room.
Mr Marzi said that Ms Knox had shown him the blood in the bathroom basin, speaking in imperfect Italian, while Mr Sollecito had pointed out that nothing had been taken, remarking that this was "strange". (source: Marzi’s testimony, paraphrased in The [London] Times, February 6, 2009)
- Amanda and Raffaele explain that there had been feces in the other bathroom, but that these have now disappeared, presumed flushed. The police examine this room also, and observe that the feces are still in the toilet bowl.
- Amanda and Raffaele explain that Meredith’s room is locked, and that Meredith herself is not responding when called. (At least, this is what the police understand her to mean – source: Micheli’s report.)
- The police check the other rooms in the house – this need not take too long, since Amanda and Laura’s rooms are both obviously untouched.
- The police note bloodstains in “several rooms of the apartment, especially in one of the bathrooms” (source: Micheli’s report)
- Amanda gives the police phone numbers. She writes these on a post-it note which is on the kitchen table when Luca Altieri arrives, alongside Meredith’s Italian phone and Battistelli’s own phone. (sources: Micheli’s report, clarified by the testimonies of Battistelli and Altieri at the present trial)

Note – if we’re not convinced that all this can be accomplished in two minutes, we may need to push back the conversation between Bartolozzi and Battistelli/Filomena (logged at 1300). We can’t change the earlier time – they definitely arrived at 1255 or later because we know they arrived after Raffaele’s emergency call.

1256 to 1257: “I showed them what I could.”

i showed them what i could and told them what i knew. gave them ohone numbers and explained a bit in broken italian, (source: Amanda Knox email)

1257 or 1258: arrival of Marco Zaroli and Luca Altieri

The timing for this needs to be after the arrival of the police (1256 at the earliest) but before the arrival of Filomena (1259 at the latest) (source: Micheli’s report)
Technically, Micheli’s report describes this arrival as “meanwhile”, with reference to the police checking the rooms of the house. Given the restrictions of the available timeframe, we calculate their arrival to be approximately one minute after the arrival of the police.
They discuss the locked room. Luca understands Amanda to be explaining that Meredith often locks her room, even when taking a shower, so this is not necessarily alarming. (source: Micheli’s report, Luca’s testimony)

Amanda and Raffaele go into Amanda’s bedroom.(source: Paola Grande's testimony)

In the kitchen, Luca and Battistelli also have a conversation about the telephones.
Luca explains immediately his mistake without any problem, “I saw two cellphones on the table but the thing that they were both Meredith's was my conclusion. Because they were talking that two cellphones were found and 2 cellphones were on the table. I also saw a piece of paper with 2 phone numbers written on it.”
Battistelli repeats: “I brought only one of Meredith's cellphones. The other one is my own.” The description corresponds, Battistelli is right.
As for the piece of paper the inspector explains. “Amanda wrote Meredith's numbers on it.”
(source: Frank Sfarzo, February 7, 2009)

1257 to 1258: “Nobody is excessively worried.”

In the house nobody is excessively worried. The Postal Police don't see the situation as grave. Amanda explains to the boys that Meredith always locks her door, even for going to take a shower... (source: Frank Sfarzo, February 7, 2009)

So this conversation took place after Amanda had written the numbers on the paper, but before Filomena and Paola arrived.

1258 or 1259: arrival of Filomena Romanelli and Paola Grande

The timing for this needs to be after the arrival of Marco and Luca but before the conversation with Bartolozzi (1300) (source: Micheli’s report)

Technically, Micheli’s report claims that Filomena and Paola arrived “a few minutes after” Luca and Marco (“qualche altro minuto”), but we can see that this is impossible, given the timescale. They must have arrived about one minute after the boys.

"'We arrived just before 1pm and when we entered the house we met Luca Alteri and Marco with a man that we later discovered worked for the postal police and who was there with his colleague. Amanda and Raffaele were in Amanda's room because at a certain point they came out into the corridor and we introduced ourselves." (source – Paola’s witness statement, quoted by Candace Dempsey)

1300: a connection from Meredith’s UK phone confirms it is at the communications police center (where it had been registered at 1246)

1300: Filippo Bartolozzi speaks with the policemen at the cottage

This conversation is to check on progress and to tell them that this second phone has now been handed in. Filomena is now definitely at the cottage, since she confirms that she had lent Meredith the Italian phone, and that the other phone has a UK sim card. However, the only confirmation of this timing is the cell phone connection time, combined with the testimonies of Bartolozzi, Battistelli and Filomena.

1300 to 1315: the decision to break down the door

Filomena checks her room.
“Prior to [the discussion about Meredith’s door], Filomena had entered her room to see what had been stolen and noticed that she was not missing anything.” (source: Luca Altieri testimony, quoted in La Nazione, February 6, 2009)

Luca explains to Paola and Filomena that Amanda had said that Meredith often locked her door. Filomena contradicts this, and says Meredith never locks the door, and they will have to break down the door. (sources: testimonies of Luca, Paola, Filomena; also Micheli’s report).

However, Amanda cannot have said this, since she had earlier been so concerned about the locked door that she tried to peer through the window from outside, and Raffaele had attempted to break down the door, succeeding only in cracking the frame. (source: Amanda Knox email)

Nevertheless, the other housemates were so concerned about Amanda’s alleged comments that this became one of the topics of an informal clear-the-air meeting of the housemates two days later.

Here's what Frank tells us about that: All the group meets 2 days later and they ask Amanda to explain her strange behavior (why she said that Meredith used to lock her door, etc.). Amanda speaks for 20 minutes. At the end Raffaele translates: because she was confused. 20 minutes reduce to this sentence. (source: Frank Sfarzo)

"... Filomena was surprised at the very news of the mobile phones, because she said that Meredith would never separate herself from the phones, that also her mother was ill, they spoke two or three times per day. So that's why they were concerned about this girl and about that door…” (source: Luca Altieri testimony, quoted in La Nazione, February 6, 2009)

"... I saw that the door already had a split in the wood and I said 'but why is the door broken here?' and Raffaele told me he had already tried to break through that door." (source: Luca Altieri testimony, quoted in La Nazione, February 6, 2009)

1315: Luca Altieri kicks down the door

all together we checked the houe out, talked to the polie,a nd in a big they all opened merediths door. i was in the kitchen stadning aside, having really done my part for the situation. (source: Amanda Knox email)

“At this time Knox and Sollecito were not here. They were away from the scene. Luca Altieri gave the door three kicks and it opened - I was behind him and heard a scream.” (source – Battistelli’s testimony)

“…Raffaele started asking, 'But do you have an idea of who did it?', 'But in your opinion who could it be'... " (source: Marco Zaroli testimony, quoted in La Nazione, February 6, 2009)


Last edited by FinnMacCool on Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:09 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 7:01 pm   Post subject:    

Jools wrote:
Another 48 Hours show schedule for Saturday. There is a short video promo in this link by Peter Van Sant.
Further attacks on prosecutor Mignini while Preston continues to promote himself.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/04/ ... 9950.shtml


The usual rubbish. Could they come up with different fantasies just for a change? We're pretty tired to hear the same old tales about the "psychic", the "satanic rite", "the multiple abusive cop" etc . C'mon guys don't put a limit to your creativity, you can invent even funnier and more entertaining stories than these trite ones!
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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 7:19 pm   Post subject: 48 Hours   

Thanks for the link to the 48 Hours ad - if the full program is anything like the promo video I'll just wait for the internet version. Not worth watching except to count the errors in reporting - later, much later! :lol:

Finn:

Great timeline! What a busy 4 minutes...
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 7:20 pm   Post subject:    

Re Finn's post: You have done a masterful job of aligning objective data, witness testimony and the account given by one of the suspects. If we assume that RS really did call the police before the arrival of the postal police - which in turn requires that we ignore other data concerning their arrival time - then the 5 minutes (at most - what if the police, in this version, actually arrived three minutes after RS ended his second call to the police?) between 12:55 and 13:00 has to be one of the most densely packed in terms of words and deeds that we can possibly imagine.

Does anyone have any idea why Knox might not have answered two of Filomena's calls?

Do we know whether or not Knox told Filomena she would call the police or had called the police?

Can we consider as confirmed that the first conversation between Edda and Amanda took place at 12:46 pm? In her first published account of this call, I believe Edda states that she told Amanda to call the police right away. (ABC 20/20 program)

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Offline FinnMacCool


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 7:39 pm   Post subject:    

Tara wrote:
Finn:

Great timeline! What a busy 4 minutes...


The busiest couple of minutes is 1256-1257, I reckon.

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Do we know whether or not Knox told Filomena she would call the police or had called the police?


Yes - see Filomena's testimony quoted above.

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Can we consider as confirmed that the first conversation between Edda and Amanda took place at 12:46 pm? In her first published account of this call, I believe Edda states that she told Amanda to call the police right away. (ABC 20/20 program)


I had that one from Charlie Wilkes, which is about as horse's mouth as it can get, for that type of thing.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 8:50 pm   Post subject:    

Finn you have been busy!
:lol: :lol:
Sollecito said:
"There’s a locked door? What locked door? One of the housemate’s doors – we don't know where she is. Yes, yes, we’ve tried calling her but she’s just not answering."

Knox said:
"then i knocked on merediths room. at first i thought she was alseep so i knocked gently, but when she didnt respond i knocked louder and louder until i was really banging on her door and shouting her name. no response. panicing, i ran out onto our terrace to see if maybe i could see over the ledge into her room from the window, but i couldnt see in."

No matter how many times I go round this 'panic time' I still don’t get why will they be in a panicked about a door that is locked, specially as Knox thought it was normal.
When Knox called Meredith’s phones obviously they couldn’t hear the phones ringing inside the room, so that would be a clear indication that she was not locked inside her own room. So why the panic about a door that is locked? This was happening at noon, so what if they didn’t know where Meredith was? Meredith could have been out and about, the sound of her phones ringing was not coming from the room, she could have spent the night at her friends, gone shopping, gone for brunch or whatever. Why did they assumed Meredith was missing or that there was something wrong with her inside her room, to the extent of wanting to climb the wall or break her door.
Yet no panic when she had a shower in an spotted bloody bathroom, to the point of actually touching the blood drop and noticing that it was dried blood, then goes and has breakfast at boyfriends place, mops the floor. Not much panicking going on here... and yet all this drama about panicking over a locked door that Knox thought was normal, but Sollecito thought was not as he really emphasises that point to the police, why would Sollecito be concerned about Meredith not answering her phone to the point also of mentioning it to the police, what did it have to do with him whether Meredith was not answering or her door locked?
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 8:55 pm   Post subject:    

Gosh Jools, you've got such a suspicious mind.

I've done a revised timetable of those couple of minutes - this one is a bit more realistic, because it assumes the police are also mistaken about the time the postal police called HQ, which gives us more leeway:

I'm allowing a minute for any serious task, and shorter amounts of time for anything that can be done quickly.

1254 - Raffaele dials 112.
1255 - police arrive.
1256 - they look at Filomena's bedroom and quickly assess it as a faked break-in
1257 - they look at the disappeared poo in the bathroom and manage to locate it
1258 - (twenty seconds to look at Amanda's and Laura's bedrooms)
1258 - (forty seconds to look at bathroom with blood in it)
1259 - Amanda writes down Meredith's phone numbers on a post-it
1300 - Luca and Marco arrive. Luca sees the post-it on the kitchen table, alongside two phones that he mistakenly thinks are the missing phones. (Meanwhile, Amanda and Raffaele disappear into Amanda's bedroom, from which they will later emerge.)
1301 - Filomena and Paola arrive. (Note - in Micheli's report, the girls are supposed to arrive "a few minutes after" the lads. Also Paola says they arrived shortly before one o'clock. But there's not really time for that type of thing, so let's just say they arrive one minute after the lads, and Paola's watch is slow.)
1302 - Filomena talks to Battistelli, and explains how she lent Meredith an Italian phone, and the other one is from the UK
1303 - Battistelli contacts HQ and reports what's happened in the last eight minutes. Police Commissioner incorrectly logs this time as 1300.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 8:58 pm   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Does anyone have any idea why Knox might not have answered two of Filomena's calls?


She was outside trying to climb a wall while Sollecito outside as well was trying to stop her. :lol:
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:05 pm   Post subject:    

About the timing and content of Knox's two calls to her mother on November 2:

Content:

1. August 18, 2008 Jonathan Martin, Seattle Times

Instead, Mellas, an elementary-school math teacher in Highline, was awakened before dawn on Nov. 2 by a call from Knox in Italy. "She said, 'Mom, I'm OK, I'm home, but I think somebody might have been in my house,' " Mellas said.
Knox told her mother she'd just come home after spending the night with Sollecito to find the front door ajar, droplets of blood in her bathroom, feces in a toilet, and the bedroom door of housemate Meredith Kercher locked. Knox took a shower, then left to fetch Sollecito, who then called police.
Amanda called again a few hours later, this time with panic her voice
. "They found a body in Meredith's room," Mellas, 46, remembers her daughter saying. "I gotta go, the police want to talk with me."



2. ABC 20/20 transcript February 2008
IT'S FOUR A.M. IN SEATTLE AND AMANDA WAKES HER MOTHER WITH A PHONE CALL.
EDDA MELLAS
She goes, "I'm back at my house, and I want you ... first I know I'm okay." And I said, "Okay, you know, what's goin' on?" And she said, "Well, I was at Rafael's last night...and I've come home now and I think somebody's been in my house." ...And she told me, "We can't find Meredith. We can't get a hold of Meredith. And her room is locked."
And I said, "Hang up and call the police."
NARRATION:

PHONE RECORDS OBTAINED BY 20/20 CONFIRM AMANDA CALLED MEREDITH'S CELL PHONE THREE TIMES ...AND THEN HER MOTHER.

ELIZABETH VARGAS
When did you hear again from her?
EDDA MELLAS
She called me back. The police had come, they had broke down the door, um, so there was just ... chaos.


Timing:

Amanda's calls to her mother were made at

12:47 pm
13:24 pm

Time interval = 37 minutes (not several hours; I'm sure the Seattle Times journalist made an error)

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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:08 pm   Post subject:    

Finn,

Have you considered what happens to this timetable if they all had expensive watches that had different time sets, some being faster/slower than others?

"1257 - they look at the disappeared poo in the bathroom and manage to locate it "

If I hear one more time about the disappeared poo I will put up a picture of Guede's scatological matter. :lol:
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:14 pm   Post subject:    

Jools wrote:

Quote:
When Knox called Meredith’s phones obviously they couldn’t hear the phones ringing inside the room, so that would be a clear indication that she was not locked inside her own room. So why the panic about a door that is locked? This was happening at noon, so what if they didn’t know where Meredith was? Meredith could have been out and about, the sound of her phones ringing was not coming from the room, she could have spent the night at her friends, gone shopping, gone for brunch or whatever. Why did they assumed Meredith was missing or that there was something wrong with her inside her room, to the extent of wanting to climb the wall or break her door.


Or maybe she too had turned her cell phones off the night before and just not turned them back on.

In fact, Knox called Meredith's phones 3 times:

12:07 - call to Meredith's phone with UK number
12:08 - call to Meredith's phone on loan from Filomena
12:11 - call to Meredith's UK phone


After 12:11, there are no attempts to call Meredith on either phone.

This is a little surprising. If I encountered a locked door and thought something worrisome might lie behind it, I would probably try the cell phone numbers to see if I could ascertain if the phones (and perhaps their owner) were behind the locked door. Only one of the phones was out of service, right?

Knox calls her mother 36 minutes later, at 12:47.

For ABC to claim that Knox tried to reach Meredith three times and then called her mother is a bit of an exaggeration.

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Offline Shirley


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:21 pm   Post subject:    

Jools wrote:
"No matter how many times I go round this 'panic time' I still don’t get why will they be in a panicked about a door that is locked, specially as Knox thought it was normal.
When Knox called Meredith’s phones obviously they couldn’t hear the phones ringing inside the room, so that would be a clear indication that she was not locked inside her own room. So why the panic about a door that is locked? This was happening at noon, so what if they didn’t know where Meredith was? Meredith could have been out and about, the sound of her phones ringing was not coming from the room, she could have spent the night at her friends, gone shopping, gone for brunch or whatever. Why did they assumed Meredith was missing or that there was something wrong with her inside her room, to the extent of wanting to climb the wall or break her door.
Yet no panic when she had a shower in an spotted bloody bathroom, to the point of actually touching the blood drop and noticing that it was dried blood, then goes and has breakfast at boyfriends place, mops the floor. Not much panicking going on here... and yet all this drama about panicking over a locked door that Knox thought was normal, but Sollecito thought was not as he really emphasises that point to the police, why would Sollecito be concerned about Meredith not answering her phone to the point also of mentioning it to the police, what did it have to do with him whether Meredith was not answering or her door locked?"


I completely agree Jools.
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:22 pm   Post subject:    

Shirley wrote:
Jools wrote:

No matter how many times I go round this 'panic time' I still don’t get why will they be in a panicked about a door that is locked, specially as Knox thought it was normal.
When Knox called Meredith’s phones obviously they couldn’t hear the phones ringing inside the room, so that would be a clear indication that she was not locked inside her own room. So why the panic about a door that is locked? This was happening at noon, so what if they didn’t know where Meredith was? Meredith could have been out and about, the sound of her phones ringing was not coming from the room, she could have spent the night at her friends, gone shopping, gone for brunch or whatever. Why did they assumed Meredith was missing or that there was something wrong with her inside her room, to the extent of wanting to climb the wall or break her door.
Yet no panic when she had a shower in an spotted bloody bathroom, to the point of actually touching the blood drop and noticing that it was dried blood, then goes and has breakfast at boyfriends place, mops the floor. Not much panicking going on here... and yet all this drama about panicking over a locked door that Knox thought was normal, but Sollecito thought was not as he really emphasises that point to the police, why would Sollecito be concerned about Meredith not answering her phone to the point also of mentioning it to the police, what did it have to do with him whether Meredith was not answering or her door locked?


I completely agree Jools.

It makes much sense Jools
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:29 pm   Post subject:    

petafly wrote:
Perhaps RS and AK planned to scare the shit out of Meredith on Helloween, with a really well done, tasteless Helloween joke. But they weren't able to pull it off because Mez wasn't available or just didn't come home. All the work, perhaps with costumes and tools (knives?), all the pleasant anticipation, all for nothing. F_ck! Now Amanda and Raffaele had plenty of time to think about how it could have been. What fun they'd have had. And then Amanda said: "You know, what i really want to do with her is _______!" and rang a bell in Raffaeles brain. Perhaps they talked the whole night what ghastly things they'd do with Meredith if they could.

The next evening, they just learned that they're free this day, Amanda said: "Let's do it now. Mez is alone today." She didn't specify what exactly she meant, Raff didn't ask her. Everything happened very quick. Phones off and go! They didn't want to think about it, they just want to do that


Amanda Knox sent Meredith a flurry of text messages on 31 October, trying to meet up with her. In the light of what happened 24 hours later, I believe Knox's intentions were sinister when she was sending the text messages. The huge problem I have with the prank scenario is the cruelty and violence that Meredith suffered.

Miss Represented in her excellent article, A Sadist in the Room, outlined a scenario that probably comes as close to the truth about what happened that we are ever going to get. I think Knox and Sollecito exchanged sexual fantasies, and in turn discussed them with Guede, who expressed an interest in Meredith.

I think it's more than likely that Sollecito was influenced by his Manga comics and occult literature. After the reading The Times article about the two teenage girls who killed their best friend because they felt like it, I wouldn't be surprised if Knox, Sollecito and Guede had taken methamphetamine, or ice.
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Offline Shirley


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:30 pm   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Jools wrote:

Quote:
When Knox called Meredith’s phones obviously they couldn’t hear the phones ringing inside the room, so that would be a clear indication that she was not locked inside her own room. So why the panic about a door that is locked? This was happening at noon, so what if they didn’t know where Meredith was? Meredith could have been out and about, the sound of her phones ringing was not coming from the room, she could have spent the night at her friends, gone shopping, gone for brunch or whatever. Why did they assumed Meredith was missing or that there was something wrong with her inside her room, to the extent of wanting to climb the wall or break her door.


Or maybe she too had turned her cell phones off the night before and just not turned them back on.

In fact, Knox called Meredith's phones 3 times:

12:07 - call to Meredith's phone with UK number
12:08 - call to Meredith's phone on loan from Filomena
12:11 - call to Meredith's UK phone


After 12:11, there are no attempts to call Meredith on either phone.

This is a little surprising. If I encountered a locked door and thought something worrisome might lie behind it, I would probably try the cell phone numbers to see if I could ascertain if the phones (and perhaps their owner) were behind the locked door. Only one of the phones was out of service, right?

Knox calls her mother 36 minutes later, at 12:47.

For ABC to claim that Knox tried to reach Meredith three times and then called her mother is a bit of an exaggeration.


Another thing about the phones, what phone did Amanda usually call Meredith on? I've always found it strange that she called the UK one first (and twice). If Amanda had an Italian phone you'd think she'd have called Meredith's Italian one: first, most and yea Skeptical Bystander, continuously. Just my two cents of spec.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:32 pm   Post subject:    

Tara wrote:

Quote:
Thanks for the link to the 48 Hours ad - if the full program is anything like the promo video I'll just wait for the internet version. Not worth watching except to count the errors in reporting - later, much later!


Candace Dempsey has given the show a plug on her blog. The entry is titled - oddly in my opinion - The Americans Fire Back.

This is, of course, perfectly on message, since Peter Van Zandt rallies the troops to battle in the short video preview. But it is all so bellicose.

It bolsters the sentiment that Americans tend to get out their heavy artillery and shoot when problems arise. Shoot first, ask questions later. I heard a journalist this morning on the radio, quoting an eminent member of the military who is notable for his pacifism. The military guy said Americans tend to forget, but should never forget, that war is organized murder.

I doubt this program will have any impact on the people who are charged with hearing the evidence and making an informed decision. I suspect the aim (ready aim fire) is to whip up some moral outrage on the part of Americans and the citizens of some allies, enough to raise a fuss. The recent devastation in L'Aquila and surrounding area is probably more preoccupying to ordinary Italians, which is understandable.

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Offline Shirley


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:46 pm   Post subject:    

The Machine wrote:
petafly wrote:
Perhaps RS and AK planned to scare the shit out of Meredith on Helloween, with a really well done, tasteless Helloween joke. But they weren't able to pull it off because Mez wasn't available or just didn't come home. All the work, perhaps with costumes and tools (knives?), all the pleasant anticipation, all for nothing. F_ck! Now Amanda and Raffaele had plenty of time to think about how it could have been. What fun they'd have had. And then Amanda said: "You know, what i really want to do with her is _______!" and rang a bell in Raffaeles brain. Perhaps they talked the whole night what ghastly things they'd do with Meredith if they could.

The next evening, they just learned that they're free this day, Amanda said: "Let's do it now. Mez is alone today." She didn't specify what exactly she meant, Raff didn't ask her. Everything happened very quick. Phones off and go! They didn't want to think about it, they just want to do that


Amanda Knox sent Meredith a flurry of text messages on 31 October, trying to meet up with her. In the light of what happened 24 hours later, I believe Knox's intentions were sinister when she was sending the text messages. The huge problem I have with the prank scenario is the cruelty and violence that Meredith suffered.

Miss Represented in her excellent article, A Sadist in the Room, outlined a scenario that probably comes as close to the truth about what happened that we are ever going to get. I think Knox and Sollecito exchanged sexual fantasies, and in turn discussed them with Guede, who expressed an interest in Meredith.

I think it's more than likely that Sollecito was influenced by his Manga comics and occult literature. After the reading The Times article about the two teenage girls who killed their best friend because they felt like it, I wouldn't be surprised if Knox, Sollecito and Guede had taken methamphetamine, or ice.



I spoke with a friend recently who used to do drugs. I asked her if she'd ever done meth. She said, "yes" (and answered in a way, doh!, as if I'd asked her if she'd ever had water). Anyway, she said once her and her ex did ecstasy laced with meth and were up for 3 days. (How did they know it was laced with meth? apparently the experience was "different" from the usual E high and apparently her ex was a bit of an amateur pharmacist.) Not trying to suggest the defendants did E laced with meth particularly but I think the idea of "laced" is something to keep in mind. As my friend said, "with street drugs you never know what you're getting."

That said, for me, drugs do not explain the murder itself so much as shed light on the extensive clean-up, police station cartwheels, clothing shop affection, etc.

Oh, and one thing about the Halloween prank idea: if it happened and if it involved gloves that might explain absent dna, fingerprints. But who knows. Who knows what's in those 10,000 pages. Guess we'll see what comes out in court.
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Offline Shirley


Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:48 pm

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:49 pm   Post subject:    

Gads I posted that thing twice. Can a moderator remove the redundancy? THANK YOU!

Nevermind. See what happens when you write about drugs, kids?
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Offline FinnMacCool


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:58 pm   Post subject:    

Jools wrote:
Finn,
Have you considered what happens to this timetable if they all had expensive watches that had different time sets, some being faster/slower than others?


I'm way ahead of you, Jools. There are no watches involved in any of these timelines. The only people to mention looking at their watches are the police, who are just plain liars, and Paola Grande, whose watch must be slow.

Everything else is informed either by phone records, which everyone accepts as accurate, or by the notion that time is linear, which is maybe open to debate.
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Offline FinnMacCool


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 10:01 pm   Post subject:    

Jools wrote:
When Knox called Meredith’s phones obviously they couldn’t hear the phones ringing inside the room, so that would be a clear indication that she was not locked inside her own room. So why the panic about a door that is locked?


You big eejit, you're forgetting that they were in Raffaele's house when they made those calls.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 10:10 pm   Post subject:    

Finn wrote:

Quote:
Jools wrote:
Finn,
Have you considered what happens to this timetable if they all had expensive watches that had different time sets, some being faster/slower than others?

I'm way ahead of you, Jools. There are no watches involved in any of these timelines. The only people to mention looking at their watches are the police, who are just plain liars, and Paola Grande, whose watch must be slow.

Everything else is informed either by phone records, which everyone accepts as accurate, or by the notion that time is linear, which is maybe open to debate.


If necessary, it can be shown by experts that time is not linear under all circumstances.

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Offline FinnMacCool


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 10:13 pm   Post subject: The Big Bang Theory   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
If necessary, it can be shown by experts that time is not linear under all circumstances.


I'll bet that's where I've been going wrong.
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Offline DLW


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:41 pm

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 10:35 pm   Post subject:    

Just looking at a recent entry of Charles Mudede in the Slog, in which he’s wondering what Amanda meant by this statement in her written confession : ‘I want to tell you what happened because it’s left me really shocked and I’m terrified of Patrick, the African boy who owns the Le Chic pub where I work sometimes.’

Some people on there are wondering if the African boy comment is some sort of racial remark by Amanda. I’m not sure I see it that way. She may have thinking about Rudy as the African boy, since he was only 20, and Patrick was 38. Mixing names is confusing , so she may have mixed up qualifying adjectives. Boy vs. man. So I would probably cut her some slack on this comment.

http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archiv ... 09/boy-toy

SB said: 'If necessary, it can be shown by experts that time is not linear under all circumstances.' Yes that’s true. Moving objects have slower time than non-moving objects.
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:30 am   Post subject:    

‘I want to tell you what happened because it’s left me really shocked and I’m terrified of Patrick, the African boy who owns the Le Chic pub where I work sometimes.’

A 20 year old referring to a 38 year old man as a boy... goodnes me!
Patrick is a few years older than her stepfather, that's it mean she sees him as a baby? :lol: :lol:

If I was wearing a FOA hat I would say that comment was probably translated from the Italian word 'ragazzo' meaning young man.
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:48 am   Post subject:    

FinnMacCool wrote:
Jools wrote:
When Knox called Meredith’s phones obviously they couldn’t hear the phones ringing inside the room, so that would be a clear indication that she was not locked inside her own room. So why the panic about a door that is locked?


You big eejit, you're forgetting that they were in Raffaele's house when they made those calls.


OK Finn I'm stoopid, forgot that they were at Sollecito's.

But since they were panicking so much because Meredith was missing and her door was locked, why not try and call her again when they got back to the cottage in the hope that they could hear her phones ringing at least to make sure whether she was inside. It seems to me they never contemplated the thought that Meredith was anywhere else but inside the room.
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:05 am   Post subject:    

An odd humorous (Wilkens humour?) article on Amanda Knox from the Spoof. :!:

http://www.thespoof.com/news/spoof.cfm? ... 50846#this

"Accussed Murderess Amanda Knox Granted Conjugal Visits Due to 8 Year Italian Trial!

Authorities are culling through Ms. Knox's choice of temporary bedmates, as the list is extensive, and in the process of doing complicated scheduling so "everyone gets his due measure," according to the Judge overseeing the Landmark Case.

Human Rights Activists, The ACLU (Knox is an American Citizen), and the UN Terrorist Compassion Council, unanimously decided that denying Ms. Knox a modicum amount of sex for this lengthy period stood for "cruel and unusual punishment"

Reportedly, when the announcement was made that she would soon be able to "get it on" for 4 hours every Saturday night in a private jail cell with a partner of her choice, Amanda reverted to cartwheels, splits, and demonic laughing out loud. A bystander confirmed she was not wearing panties during these exuberant displays of excitement.


Ms. Knox was denied the use of any sharp instruments in the upcoming festivities, but she took it well, saying she would just be happy "to tie somebody up and fall on their sword... I can' wait to get off again," she smiled sweetly while smacking her lips."
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Offline The Bard


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:11 am   Post subject:    

Jools wrote:
An odd humorous (Wilkens humour?) article on Amanda Knox from the Spoof. :!:

http://www.thespoof.com/news/spoof.cfm? ... 50846#this

"Accussed Murderess Amanda Knox Granted Conjugal Visits Due to 8 Year Italian Trial!

Authorities are culling through Ms. Knox's choice of temporary bedmates, as the list is extensive, and in the process of doing complicated scheduling so "everyone gets his due measure," according to the Judge overseeing the Landmark Case.

Human Rights Activists, The ACLU (Knox is an American Citizen), and the UN Terrorist Compassion Council, unanimously decided that denying Ms. Knox a modicum amount of sex for this lengthy period stood for "cruel and unusual punishment"

Reportedly, when the announcement was made that she would soon be able to "get it on" for 4 hours every Saturday night in a private jail cell with a partner of her choice, Amanda reverted to cartwheels, splits, and demonic laughing out loud. A bystander confirmed she was not wearing panties during these exuberant displays of excitement.


Ms. Knox was denied the use of any sharp instruments in the upcoming festivities, but she took it well, saying she would just be happy "to tie somebody up and fall on their sword... I can' wait to get off again," she smiled sweetly while smacking her lips."


Sick
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Offline martin


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:28 pm

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:12 am   Post subject:    

SB said: 'If necessary, it can be shown by experts that time is not linear under all circumstances.' Yes that’s true. Moving objects have slower time than non-moving objects.

Hi SB, what has the theory of relativity to do
with the murder case? Has rs been exposed to
a powerful gravity field or did rg travel with almost the speed of light?
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:16 am   Post subject:    

Martin wrote:

Quote:
SB said: 'If necessary, it can be shown by experts that time is not linear under all circumstances.' Yes that’s true. Moving objects have slower time than non-moving objects.

Hi SB, what has the theory of relativity to do
with the murder case? Has rs been exposed to
a powerful gravity field or did rg travel with almost the speed of light?


Good question!

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Offline Anastasia


Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:13 pm

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Location: Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:46 am   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Re Finn's post: You have done a masterful job of aligning objective data, witness testimony and the account given by one of the suspects. If we assume that RS really did call the police before the arrival of the postal police - which in turn requires that we ignore other data concerning their arrival time - then the 5 minutes (at most - what if the police, in this version, actually arrived three minutes after RS ended his second call to the police?) between 12:55 and 13:00 has to be one of the most densely packed in terms of words and deeds that we can possibly imagine.

Does anyone have any idea why Knox might not have answered two of Filomena's calls?

Do we know whether or not Knox told Filomena she would call the police or had called the police?

Can we consider as confirmed that the first conversation between Edda and Amanda took place at 12:46 pm? In her first published account of this call, I believe Edda states that she told Amanda to call the police right away. (ABC 20/20 program)


She was trying to get her story straight with raff and in her own mind, IMO.
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Offline martin


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:28 pm

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:52 am   Post subject:    

I spent last night at my girlfriend's house, we read
miss represented's last blog. Due to her job, my
girlfriend has been confronted with all kinds of
sexual activities and also sexual perversions, but she told me that she couldn't imagine a girl taking
sexual pleasure in the raping, torturing and killing
of other people - maybe miss represented is wrong
and - don't crucify me - ak and rs did not kill her.
Maybe they for some unknown reason were waiting at the place above the house (where they have been spotted by the homeless - he couldnt' remember wether they stayed there the whole time or wether they left and came back - rg has not been with them)
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Offline Anastasia


Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:13 pm

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Location: Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:53 am   Post subject:    

Jools wrote:
Finn you have been busy!
:lol: :lol:
Sollecito said:
"There’s a locked door? What locked door? One of the housemate’s doors – we don't know where she is. Yes, yes, we’ve tried calling her but she’s just not answering."

Knox said:
"then i knocked on merediths room. at first i thought she was alseep so i knocked gently, but when she didnt respond i knocked louder and louder until i was really banging on her door and shouting her name. no response. panicing, i ran out onto our terrace to see if maybe i could see over the ledge into her room from the window, but i couldnt see in."

No matter how many times I go round this 'panic time' I still don’t get why will they be in a panicked about a door that is locked, specially as Knox thought it was normal.
When Knox called Meredith’s phones obviously they couldn’t hear the phones ringing inside the room, so that would be a clear indication that she was not locked inside her own room. So why the panic about a door that is locked? This was happening at noon, so what if they didn’t know where Meredith was? Meredith could have been out and about, the sound of her phones ringing was not coming from the room, she could have spent the night at her friends, gone shopping, gone for brunch or whatever. Why did they assumed Meredith was missing or that there was something wrong with her inside her room, to the extent of wanting to climb the wall or break her door.
Yet no panic when she had a shower in an spotted bloody bathroom, to the point of actually touching the blood drop and noticing that it was dried blood, then goes and has breakfast at boyfriends place, mops the floor. Not much panicking going on here... and yet all this drama about panicking over a locked door that Knox thought was normal, but Sollecito thought was not as he really emphasises that point to the police, why would Sollecito be concerned about Meredith not answering her phone to the point also of mentioning it to the police, what did it have to do with him whether Meredith was not answering or her door locked?


That part really jumped out at me too....why the panic knox? Hmmm??
A bit of melodramatic bad acting and writing on her part IMO :lol:
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Offline bombee


Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 2:58 am

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:51 am   Post subject: Amanda Knox   

I was wondering if there is any truth to the rumor that Amanda and the new boyfriend were perhaps on some type of drugs the evening of the murder and maybe that is why their stories have changed so many times?
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:54 am   Post subject:    

Martin wrote:

Quote:
I spent last night at my girlfriend's house, we read
miss represented's last blog. Due to her job, my
girlfriend has been confronted with all kinds of
sexual activities and also sexual perversions, but she told me that she couldn't imagine a girl taking
sexual pleasure in the raping, torturing and killing
of other people - maybe miss represented is wrong
and - don't crucify me - ak and rs did not kill her.
Maybe they for some unknown reason were waiting at the place above the house (where they have been spotted by the homeless - he couldnt' remember wether they stayed there the whole time or wether they left and came back - rg has not been with them)


Why would anyone crucify you because your girlfriend is of the opinion that women (or girls) are incapable of experiencing sexual pleasure in raping, torturing and killing someone?

I'm not sure what sexual pleasure has to do with it. Personally, I can't imagine anyone getting off on those things.

And yet, people rape, torture and kill with alarming frequency. I don't think anyone has come up with a convincing typology.

In your opinion, why would RS and AK be in the square? Why would they not have said this at the outset (that they were in the square)? It's a mystery, but maybe there is an answer.

Incidentally, Antonio Curatolo - the homeless man - did not say he couldn't remember. He testified that he saw them at various times during the time period indicated.

He's an interesting character. I can't come up with any reason for him to lie. What would he gain from it? He's certainly not a seeker of worldly fame or fortune.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:59 am   Post subject:    

Bombee wrote:

Quote:
I was wondering if there is any truth to the rumor that Amanda and the new boyfriend were perhaps on some type of drugs the evening of the murder and maybe that is why their stories have changed so many times?


Hi Bombee and welcome. Well, both suspects have said they smoked cannabis that night and that this explains their memory lapses. But most people agree that cannabis doesn't really have this effect. So there are rumors of other drugs, but they are unsubstantiated rumors. I doubt they will ever be substantiated unless a dealer comes forward or unless it emerges from reliable testimony. I wouldn't expect either suspect to say more.

It has occured to me that perhaps the reason for their changing stories is that they wanted to cover up whatever drug use was involved in a totally innocent evening. But did that evening involve hanging out in Piazza Grimana? What for? Lots of things don't add up.

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Offline martin


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:18 am   Post subject:    

S.B. wrote:
In your opinion, why would RS and AK be in the square? Why would they not have said this at the outset (that they were in the square)? It's a mystery, but maybe there is an answer.

Hi S.B., I can, like all of us, only guess - maybe
they knew that somebody was in the house - (they let him/them in) -
maybe they knew that somebody is going to commit
a crime (theft, but not murder) and later they felt responsible and therefore staged the burglary and did the cleanup - i don't know - we have to wait until finally one of them is going to crack and spills
the beans
- maybe they were involved in something else -
(drug deals?) and
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:27 am   Post subject:    

Martin wrote:

Quote:
Hi S.B., I can, like all of us, only guess - maybe
they knew that somebody was in the house - (they let him/them in) -
maybe they knew that somebody is going to commit
a crime (theft, but not murder) and later they felt responsible and therefore staged the burglary and did the cleanup - i don't know - we have to wait until finally one of them is going to crack and spills
the beans
- maybe they were involved in something else -
(drug deals?) and


That's a chilling thought. It's hard for me to believe that anyone could react in that way under the circumstances. I would expect anyone in that situation to try and save the victim before thinking about the consequences. Wouldn't you?

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Offline martin


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:58 am   Post subject:    

S.B. wrote:
That's a chilling thought. It's hard for me to believe that anyone could react in that way under the circumstances. I would expect anyone in that situation to try and save the victim before thinking about the consequences. Wouldn't you?

But we have seen until know that both of them do not act in the same way other people will react under the given circumstances - I do not believe in stupid conspiracy theories - i think there is a very simple explanation to their behaviour - maybe they had some drug deals running, they pissed off the wrong guys , fled the house and waited in the square, observing what was going to happen and poor meredith was at wrong time in the wrong place
aren't drug mobsters defending their "territories"
with an extreme brutality?
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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 8:19 am   Post subject: Catching-up time: newspaper roundup   

This continues on from part one Perugia News Digest 27 March 2009 (part 1).

It’s obvious from StewartHome2000’s reports from the court that the news media no longer knows how to report any more; interviews they can handle (by copying down what the interviewee said), but reporting is a lost skill.
For comparison, Stew’s post is at Perugia: Friday – March 27th.


Perugia Italian News Digest 27 March 2009 Part 2



Item
Witnesses
- There were eleven witnesses (7)

Item
Nara Capezzali
- as per Digest Part 1 (6, 7, 8, 14)
- was moved by her Porta a porta interview where she described the scream as “chilling, like in a horror film” (8)
- “I want to try and forget” she explained before answering Giulia Borngiorno’s question about what time she heard the scream and then saying “I don’t remember any more” (8)
- things were not going smoothly [rugine=there was rust] between Amanda and Meredith in the weeks before the tragedy (10) – a statement that goes into the “there was bad blood between the two housemates” file (11)


Item
Antonella Monacchia
- a young teacher (1, )
- lives not far from the murder house (1, 8)
- heard an animated discussion in Italian between a man and a woman (1, 8) immediately after [?the scream?] (8)


Item
Francesco Tavernese
- head of the university section of ONAOSI College in Perugia (4, 5, 7, 8, 12, 13)
- Raffaele was a "quiet, introverted and shy" lad (4, 5, 7, 8, 12), and Raffaele also "blushed (a lot (5, 7, 12)) often" (4, 8) and "was embarrassed" (4); or: "A quiet lad, introverted and shy who was embarassed a lot and blushed”(13)
- Raffaele was a boarder from 2003 to 2005 (4, 5, 7, 8, 12, 13)
- Raffaele showed signs (at the beginning (4), when he first arrived at college (13)) of “difficulty in adapting due to the distancing from the nuclear family” (5, 7, 12, reported as indirect speech in 4); it is fairly “common” (5, 7, 12), and “normal” (13), especially among freshmen (5, 7), or: "It is not unusual for freshmen, especially at the start, to feel out of their element [spaesati] because of the separation from their families and the new university environment” (4), or: “immersion in campus life” (13)
- Raffaele "had a good run in maturing in college" (5, 7, 8, 12)
- Raffaele “used to watch lots of films, and did sports, like kick-boxing.” (5, 7, 8, 12, reported as indirect speech in 13)
“He often went to our gym and also an outside one, maybe even the one belonging to Perugian boxer Gianfranco Rosi" (5, 7, 12, indirect speech in 4 and 13) and he loved (reading (8)) manga comics (4, 8), which are Japanese comics (13).
- Referred to how Raffaele watched a X-rated movie “involving animals” (8)
- Generally (13), "Raffaele didn’t talk much. Even when his mother died, he went without saying anything [about it] to anybody" (4, indirect speech in 13) or: “Raffaele didn’t talk much about private matters. Even when his mother died, he left in silence, without saying anything ". (5, 7, 12)


Item
Leonardo Fazio
- a friend of Raffaele’s from when they boarded at ONAOSI (4)
- Raffaele was “normal, quiet, maybe introverted” (4)


Item
The Giovinazzo police station chief
- was asked about Raffaele’s mother's ruinous death (7, 12)


Item
The Accused (Raffaele and Amanda)
- appeared calm (1, 8)
- during breaks in the hearing, they exchanged smiles and some gestures (or: smiles and glances (9)), maybe even a “Hi” (1, 8)
- Amanda has been joined by, amongst others, her mother (1, 8)



Item
Amanda’s mother

- Edda Mellas (2)
- keeps in touch with Amanda’s defence, Luciano Ghirga and Carlo Dalla Vedova, for news about the case (7)
- teaches mathematics in primary school (2, 7)
- has taken extended leave (2, 7) to be in Perugia (7)
- is in Perugia for 15 days (2, 3)
- after Easter (it is expected (3)), she will hand over to Amanda’s father Curt (2, 3)
- she, her ex-husband and her current companion are alternating with each other in Perugia so as to never leave Amanda by herself (7) [i.e., so that there will always been someone with Amanda]
- arrived last Wednesday [i.e., 25 March 2009] (2, 3, 12) to try and stay near her daughter (2), or: “her” daughter (3)
- yesterday [i.e. 26 March 2009] in prison brought Amanda some presents (7): books, music CDs (from her friends (2, 3)) and a pair of (rubber (12)) thongs/flipflops [infradito] (1, 2, 3, 8, 12)
- explained (to journalists (2, 7)) (at the end of the hearing (7)) that:
= in Seattle, their home city, everyone is convinced of Amanda’s innocence (1, 8), or: there are a lot of people who are fighting for [battersi] Amanda’s innocence (3)
= the DJs on the radio (in Seattle (7)) are “supporting her” (1, 2, 7, 8, 12) convinced of her innocence (7)
= on the radio they are saying how terrible it is that she finds herself in this situation (2, 3)
- also brought an electronic book in which it is possible to store hundreds of titles (2) [an e-Reader?]: "Amanda envies it a lot (2, 7) and she wishes she had one too" (2)
- was not able to stay in court during the hearing today because she will have to give testimony in the case (2, 3, 12) “soon” (2)
- has been cited as a witness by her daughter’s defence team (12)
- was able to see and hug her daughter for a few moments (2, 7) at the end of the hearing (3)
- “She told me that it went well” (2) “and that she’s OK” [serena=”calm”] (2, reported as indirect speech in 3), or: “She’s OK [serena] and told me that it went well today" (7)

– the books are:
= about (the discovery of (12)) a 1700s shipwreck, written by the father of one of Amanda’s old soccer team-mates (2, 3, 12)
= some books (or: novels (3)) in German by Hermann Hesse (2, 3) or: one book by Hermann Hesse (7, 12)


Commentary
Item
Maori (Raffaele team)
- With each character witness [for Rafffaele], it was a “very positive” hearing (7, 12)
- It’s emerged that Raffaele’s character is "docile [mite=”mild”] and without problems" (7, 12)
- On Raffaele’s character: “In the preliminary investigations, there was a reliance on what was shown today to be non-existent” (7, 12 )
- About the X-rated film: “A film watched for only a very few moments [per pochi attimi] when he was a boy” (8)
- About asking the police chief about the death of Raffaele’s mother: "I asked Raffaele for permission to introduce this line of questioning and he told me to do it because thereby the question would be cleared up ‘once and for all’”(7, 12)


Item
Dalla Vedova (Amanda team)
- "Amanda is holding out [resiste] and continues to do activities in prison" (7)


Item
Francesco Sollecito, Raffaele’s father

- spoke on Mattino 5 TV show (12)
“There is no evidence. My son is not only innocent, but he is completely extraneous to the case. There is absolutely nothing that ties him to that room that night” (12, 13)
- “He is desperately trying to hold out [resistere] and to keep his sanity despite everything because his does not understand the reason why he has been constrained to undergo this incarceration. To keep from drowning [sopportare] in this situation, he is trying to find something to important to cling to, things like study and trying to distract himself from thinking about prison” (12, 13)
- “Raffaele is a simple boy, transparent and straight-up-and-down. From the letter he has written, you can really tell that he’s my son. I can only add that when I see him in prison, the first thing he asks me is what have I been able to do for him at university level, if I have been able to get him to do his exams, if I have been able to get him a computer to continue his studies. He’s desperately trying to think [positively] about his future, trying desperately to extricate himself from the situation he is living in” (12)


Item
Raffaele’s letter to the Mattino 5 TV show

– sent on his birthday to the Mattino 5 editors (12)
- “The thing that hurts most here in prison is the fact that I cannot be with others and that I have to remain isolated from everything and from everybody. I hope that this nightmare finishes as soon as possible and that, both myself and Amanda, we can return to [normal] life. – With dear greetings, Raffaele Sollecito” (12, 13)
– “On this day, 26 March 2009, the day of my 25th birthday, I would make a big wish [un gran desiderio], to be able to finally, after 16 months, hug my friends and family again, and above all to go on a long walk with my friends, along the beach of my little home, Giovinazzo” (12)
– “I miss the smells of my homeland, and the flavours and scents [sapore] of fresh fish, I miss the light-hearted and sometimes gross conversations me and my friends used to have, as if time or space did not exist. I miss my life, which has been removed from me, without a just cause, without a reason that I consider to be valid” (12)


[hr]
1 – “That night I heard a piercing cry” [ Corriere ] 27 March 2009
2 – “Amanda’s mother: Seattle DJs with my daughter” [ AGI ] 27 March 2009
3 – “Amanda’s mother: She’s calm; I was able to hug her” [ Libero ] 27 March 2009
4 – “Teacher: Raffaele taciturn and introverted” [ link ] 27 March 2009
5 – “He was a shy and introverted lad” [ Unione Sarda ] 27 March 2009
6 – “Witness: A woman’s prolong scream” [ Unione Sarda ] 27 March 2009
7 – “Witness says: I heard a blood-chilling cry” by Adriana Luciani [ Fondazione ] 27 March 2009
8 – “A couple arguing, then a scream is heard” by Claudio Sebastiani [ Mezzogiorno ] 27 March 2009
9 – “Relationship between Knox and Kercher worsened” [ AudioNews ] 28 March 2009
10 – “Amanda and Metz apart” [ Iris ] 27 March 2009
11 – “Amanda and Meredith apart near the end” [ Wall Street Italia ] 27 March 2009
12 – “I heard a scream…” [ Messaggero ] 27 March 2009
13 – “College head: Raffaele was quiet and shy” [ AND Kronos ] 27 March 2009
14 – “Neighbour tells what she heard before the murder [i.e., a scream]” [ Tempo ] 28 March 2009
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Offline mojo


Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:31 pm

Posts: 225

PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 8:43 am   Post subject:    

martin wrote:
I spent last night at my girlfriend's house, we read
miss represented's last blog. Due to her job, my
girlfriend has been confronted with all kinds of
sexual activities and also sexual perversions, but she told me that she couldn't imagine a girl taking
sexual pleasure in the raping, torturing and killing
of other people - maybe miss represented is wrong
and - don't crucify me - ak and rs did not kill her.
Maybe they for some unknown reason were waiting at the place above the house (where they have been spotted by the homeless - he couldnt' remember wether they stayed there the whole time or wether they left and came back - rg has not been with them)


martin, has your gf ever heard of karla homolka?
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Offline martin


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:28 pm

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 9:12 am   Post subject:    

Hi mojo,
who is karla homolka? I don't think she ever heard
of her. I don't say they are completely innocent,
there is too much evidence pointing in their
direction. But my gf and I, we just can't imagine
a young woman committing a barbaric crime
like that. By the way: what do you think about the double dna knife "compatible with meredith's
wounds" - i think, a murderer would try to get rid
of the murder weapon as soon as possible - why
didn't he dump it? it was an ordinary kitchen knife,
wasn't it? nothing of worth for a combat knife collector.
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Offline petafly


Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:08 pm

Posts: 278

Location: Switzerland/Germany

PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:20 am   Post subject:    

Quote:
Hi mojo,
who is karla homolka? I don't think she ever heard
of her. I don't say they are completely innocent,
there is too much evidence pointing in their
direction. But my gf and I, we just can't imagine
a young woman committing a barbaric crime
like that.


Hi Martin,
we're in the lucky position to know so much about what happened after the crime. And AK and RS behaved like Bonnie and Clyde: Clyde was cocky, and Bonnie liked the thrill!

Three possible scenarios:

a) Let's say Raffaele stabbed Mez "out of the blue" (after torture and rape btw). This would have scared the shit out of Amanda (AK the good one). It's unthinkable Amanda would want to be with Raffaele for one more minute...

b) Let's say Amanda stabbed Mez "out of the blue" (after torture and rape btw). Raffaele would have been really scared and quite assured that Amanda is nuts, psycho, insane, raving, mad, loco, batty and zany. He wouldn't be nervy enough to caress her as if nothing had happen the following days.

c) Let's say Rudy is the stabber, surprised both Amanda and Raffaele with his evil act (after torture and rape btw). They would have tried to save Meredith, they would have told the police it was Rudy (and not Patrick!). And they wouldn't plead for complete innocense now, a thing which is impossible for them to get. They just wouldn't lie that much!

The actual behavior of both AK and RS shows they weren't too uncomfortable with what happened. Especially Amanda annoyed everyone in her cold, clinical manner. And as a matter of fact all three chose to keep silent and plead for complete innocense, which is not a good strategy at all. I tells me, none of them has a clean slate!


Last edited by petafly on Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:38 am   Post subject:    

Quote:
Finn wrote:
"1303 - Battistelli contacts HQ and reports what's happened in the last eight minutes. Police Commissioner incorrectly logs this time as 1300. "


Where was it stated that such a call existed either at 13:03 or at 13:00?

Also, I think that "over there" you misinterprete the 13:00 call mentioned in the Micheli report.
It reads:
"13:00 - vi è l’attivazione della cella corrispondente al Comando di Polizia Postale
(Strada Borghetto di Prepo) da parte dell’utenza inglese della KERCHER"

It means that at 13:00 Meredith's English phone contacted the cell tower usually servicing the Postal Police Headquarters at the opposite side of the town.
So there is no known call from the headquarters to Meredith's phone.
(Not sure at all, anyway, that the contact was a call, I think that the postals simply turned it on).
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Offline srilanka


Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:24 pm

Posts: 13

PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:39 am   Post subject:    

Hi martin,
You are up very early after a previous 4a.m.post! : :D
Your scenario of AK and RS being involved by some drugs connection and watching outside the house, without having anything to do with the murder does of course fit into the timeline, as would one where they just had to go out star watching, that night. But sorry it just doesn't add up to me.
If this were the case, then they would have spoken up by now, so as to not have to face a possible minimum thirty year sentence.
Any innocent person of the accused charges would do so., charges to be brought against the pair would be far less if they were taking drugs, dealing drugs or even sitting at home and being stoned that night if they were not involved, or even if they sent someone into the house with Meredith there. :cry:
I am also curious as to what you mean by "stupid conspiracy theories"? Do you mean the one that has put two innocent until proven guilty people in the dock due to ten judges having studied the evidence and decided that there is a strong prosecution case against the two, or do you mean the one where all the witnesses, judges, police and prosecutors are all conspiring against the two accused ?
There is no sense in this murder, it cannot be worked out by amatuer sleuthing and it certainly won't be solved by one person's views on what they have read from one blog space, (though well informed, as far as I can see Miss Represented has never claimed to be more than an educated opinion.)
We all know nothing, yet.
The evidence will inform the judges and jury who will make the judgement. I hope for all concerned that they finally know more than us.
I also want to say thanks to SH2K for an insight that is beyond the norm of coverage on this case and his even-handed approach, journalism should always asoire to this, (problem is that newspapers are looking for profit), while Stuart is not. And to Catnip, without whom, we would know nothing of the Italian reporting which obviously comes from a very different angle than international press and news comparison is of paramount importance. Thanks :D
Srilanka
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Offline FinnMacCool


User avatar


Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:42 am

Posts: 299

Location: Cionn tSáile, Poblacht na hÉireann

PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:52 am   Post subject:    

bolint wrote:
Quote:
Finn wrote:
"1303 - Battistelli contacts HQ and reports what's happened in the last eight minutes. Police Commissioner incorrectly logs this time as 1300. "


Where was it stated that such a call existed either at 13:03 or at 13:00?

Also, I think that "over there" you misinterprete the 13:00 call mentioned in the Micheli report.
It reads:
"13:00 - vi è l’attivazione della cella corrispondente al Comando di Polizia Postale
(Strada Borghetto di Prepo) da parte dell’utenza inglese della KERCHER"

It means that at 13:00 Meredith's English phone contacted the cell tower usually servicing the Postal Police Headquarters at the opposite side of the town.
So there is no known call from the headquarters to Meredith's phone.
(Not sure at all, anyway, that the contact was a call, I think that the postals simply turned it on).


Sorry, Bolint - the 1303 call is my idea of a joke. It's just because I can't fit everything into the timetable, even with allowing ten seconds to look at Amanda's bedroom, and so on. No intention to mislead, just trying to make an unworkable hypothesis work. A bit like stuffing the whole family's luggage into a single suitcase and finding things keep sticking out over the side.

And yes, I agree with you about that other call too - you've done a lot of useful work on the phonecalls which I found extremely helpful in stitching that together. I just wanted to gather it all in one place.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:58 am   Post subject:    

Quote:
Finn wrote:
I'm allowing a minute for any serious task, and shorter amounts of time for anything that can be done quickly.

1254 - Raffaele dials 112.
1255 - police arrive.
1256 - they look at Filomena's bedroom and quickly assess it as a faked break-in
1257 - they look at the disappeared poo in the bathroom and manage to locate it
1258 - (twenty seconds to look at Amanda's and Laura's bedrooms)
1258 - (forty seconds to look at bathroom with blood in it)
1259 - Amanda writes down Meredith's phone numbers on a post-it
1300 - Luca and Marco arrive. Luca sees the post-it on the kitchen table, alongside two phones that he mistakenly thinks are the missing phones. (Meanwhile, Amanda and Raffaele disappear into Amanda's bedroom, from which they will later emerge.)
1301 - Filomena and Paola arrive. (Note - in Micheli's report, the girls are supposed to arrive "a few minutes after" the lads. Also Paola says they arrived shortly before one o'clock. But there's not really time for that type of thing, so let's just say they arrive one minute after the lads, and Paola's watch is slow.)
1302 - Filomena talks to Battistelli, and explains how she lent Meredith an Italian phone, and the other one is from the UK
1303 - Battistelli contacts HQ and reports what's happened in the last eight minutes. Police Commissioner incorrectly logs this time as 1300.

Such a strict timeline needs also:
- 30 seconds for the policemen to get to the house from the gates
- The 12:54 call needs to be precised, since it was 48 seconds long and if it was started say at 12:54:50 then the whole timespan till Luca Altieri's arrival gets reduced by about 20%, stepping up the frame/sec.
- Also missing and needs to be estimated the length of the period that they described as "we were waiting in the yard".
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Offline mojo


Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:31 pm

Posts: 225

PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 11:39 am   Post subject:    

BoneDawg wrote:
Amanda Handprint on Meredith's face? (as per Murder in Unbria story).

Anyone have any info on this? haven't heard about this peice of evidence yet!


BoneDawg -- haven't heard a peep about this either....trust you are talking about the para below from page 6. perhaps those more in the know with respect to the evidence can shed some light??

Quote:
Police interpreter Aida Colontane and Italian roommate Laura Mezzetti, have testified that they saw a red welt on Amanda's neck, possibly from a struggle with Meredith. Police found Amanda's fingerprints in Meredith's bloodied bedroom, as well as what may be her hand impression on Meredith's head. Forensics investigators identified fresh blood from both Knox and Kercher in their shared bathroom sink. Colantane testified that the Italian roommates told her the knives police found were from their own kitchen; she said this report made Amanda cry
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Offline nicki

Forensics Moderator


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:27 am

Posts: 847

PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:12 pm   Post subject:    

mojo wrote:
BoneDawg wrote:
Amanda Handprint on Meredith's face? (as per Murder in Unbria story).

Anyone have any info on this? haven't heard about this peice of evidence yet!


BoneDawg -- haven't heard a peep about this either....trust you are talking about the para below from page 6. perhaps those more in the know with respect to the evidence can shed some light??

Quote:
Police interpreter Aida Colontane and Italian roommate Laura Mezzetti, have testified that they saw a red welt on Amanda's neck, possibly from a struggle with Meredith. Police found Amanda's fingerprints in Meredith's bloodied bedroom, as well as what may be her hand impression on Meredith's head. Forensics investigators identified fresh blood from both Knox and Kercher in their shared bathroom sink. Colantane testified that the Italian roommates told her the knives police found were from their own kitchen; she said this report made Amanda cry


Hi Mojo,
I rememeber the early Italian press reports spoke about Amanda 's hand print on Meredith's face but I haven't heard about it since then. I think it' s just rumors.

Happy Easter everybody!
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Offline martin


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:28 pm

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:14 pm   Post subject:    

Hi Srilanka,
With "stupid conspiracy theories", I meant the
statements like "ak railroaded by sinister italian
free masons", i know there is a lot of evidence
against them and i knew they took part in the crime (at least in the clean-up), but sorry, i
can't imagine a gifted young woman the age
of my girlfriend torturing and killing another human being with pleasure. You mentioned the report in
the italian press: in 2 different italian newspapers,
i read two different versions about the timeframe and about what mr. curatolo (the homeless) saw and did not see. An the knife: if it was the murder weapon, why would he have brought it back home, why not dump it? Does this make sense to you?
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Offline martin


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:28 pm

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:33 pm   Post subject:    

Hallo Petafly,

Your scenarios make sense, i want to repeat:
I never believed they were innocent, at least
they opend the door to the killers, staged
the burglary and arrenged the cleanup. Their
defense strategy seems to get acquitted of all
charges, i am sure they know exactly who killed
meredith, but any confession of them will lead to a
long jail sentence
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Offline srilanka


Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:24 pm

Posts: 13

PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:42 pm   Post subject:    

Hi again martin,
I do not believe that any of this makes sense - which leads me to believe that it is almost impossible for anyone to purport what may have happened and why, although we all have strong feelings and the court proceedings have started to reveal the terrible way that Meredith died and how it could have come about.
Yes, I agree, you would think that the knife allegedly with DNA from AK would have been thrown, - that comes from a rational train of thought - but other known cases of terrible "unmotivated" murders by young people have come up with horror clues from victims left at the crime scene, often by those who think they will never even be suspected and the memento has meaning for them.
I cannot see into the minds of the accused, I cannot understand how this happened, to Meredith, but if I were them and innocent I would certainly be playing it differently, as what they have said just doesn't make any sense at all - to me.
ri Lanka
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2310

PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:45 pm   Post subject:    

martin wrote:
Due to her job, my
girlfriend has been confronted with all kinds of
sexual activities and also sexual perversions, but she told me that she couldn't imagine a girl taking
sexual pleasure in the raping, torturing and killing
of other people - maybe miss represented is wrong


Hi Martin,

Myra Hindley, Rosemary West and Laurie Ann Swank have all helped men sexually assault and kill other people. One of the main reasons that some people seem reluctant to believe that Amanda Knox could have been involved in Meredith's murder is because they can't imagine a woman being involved in such a cruel and sadistic murder. However, presuming the innocence of someone just because they are a woman would be wrong as the cases of Myra Hindley, Rosemary West and Laurie Ann Swank prove.

When I very first read about the case I made an assumption. I believed that Amanda Knox was telling the truth that she hadn't killed Meredith, but had played a lesser role. As more information became available I changed my mind. As soon as I read that Knox and Sollecito were claiming that they couldn't remember most of what happened on the night of the murder because they had smoked cannabis I knew they were lying. Then it emerged that Sollecito and Knox had given conflicting witness statements. Sollecito then admitted that he had lied to the police. I didn't know what roles Knox and Sollecito had played in Meredith's murder, but I believed that they were definitely involved.

The forensic evidence nails Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito:

Amanda Knox's DNA was on handle of the double DNA knife and Meredith's DNA on the blade.

Knox’s footprint was set in Meredith’s blood in the hallway outside Meredith’s room.

A woman’s bloody shoe print that matched Knox’s foot size, which was found on a pillow underneath Meredith’s body.

There were mixed traces of Knox’s DNA and Meredith’s blood on the fixtures in the bathroom the girls shared.

There were three sets of different sized bloody footprints that matched the foot sizes of Knox, Sollecito and Guede at the crime scene.

Sollecito left an abundant amount of his DNA on Meredith’s bra clasp.

Medical experts, Vincenza Liviero and Luca Lalli, stated that they believed that Meredith was attacked by more than one person.

According to Sollecito’s forensic expert, Professor Francesco Vinci, Knox’s DNA was found on Meredith’s bra.

Of course, the forensic experts for Knox and Sollecito will offer an alternative scenario and try to muddy the waters by claiming that much of the damning forensic results are due to contamination. Miss Represented made an excellent point about this in her blog:

"A lot of criticism has been handed to the crime scene officers for supposedly contaminating the crime scene, a question I have is if the crime scene was contaminated where was this endless abundance of AK and RS’s DNA coming from? Was it floating around the house waiting for the CSI guys to pick it up and deposit it in incriminating places?"

It's important to remember that the Italian authorities used la creme de la creme when they chose Patrizia Stefanoni and her colleagues from the scientific police in Rome. Patrizia Stefanoni specialises in identifying the victims of disasters when the authorities are unable to do so. She helped identify the victims of the Tsunami. She is an internationally-renowned forensic expert. The head of the DNA Unit of the scientific police, Renato Biondo, provided independent confirmation that the forensic investigation was carried out correctly, following international protocol and that the results were accurate and reliable. Both Stefanoni and Biondo categorically excluded the possibility of contamination.

I can't stress the significance of the forensic tests results enough. They place Knox and Sollecito at the crime scene of the night of the murder. The double DNA knife indicates that Knox stabbed Meredith. Sollecito's DNA on Meredith bra clasp clearly shows that he cut Meredith's bra with his knife to remove it. It has been definitely established that Meredith's bra was removed some time after she had been killed. Why would have Guede returned to the cottage to remove Meredith's bra? Judge Paolo Micheli's logic in deducing that it had to Knox and Sollecito who returned to the cottage makes perfect sense.

The three sets of different sized bloody footprints, which matched the foot sizes of Knox, Sollecito and Guede, at the crime clearly show that three people were involved in Meredith's murder. The man's bloody footprint on the blue bathmat in the bathroom is highly significant; it doesn't belong to Guede or Knox and it was made in bare feet. Amanda Knox's bloody footprints were also made in bare feet. Nara Capezzali heard two or more people running away from the cottage shortly after she heard Meredith scream. It seems that all three had their shoes on when they attacked Meredith, which means that Knox and Sollecito came back to the cottage and walked around in bare feet in Meredith's blood.

The trail of bloody footprints leading from Meredith's bedroom to the blue bathmat in the bathroom had been cleaned away. This is unequivocal evidence that there was a clean up. Knox and Sollecito had obviously removed their shoes and socks whilst they were taking part in the clean up. The police believe that Knox and Sollecito completely stripped off during the clean up so as to avoid getting Meredith's blood on their clothes. Knox and Sollecito were being very cunning.

The clean up was so extensive there wasn't a single one of Knox's fingerprints in her own room and just one of her fingerprints in the entire cottage. It's another clear indication who was involved in the clean up. I believe that Knox and Sollecito stripped off in Knox's room, which is why it was cleaned so extensively and thoroughly.

Guede lawyers stated at his fast-track trial that some of Meredith's blood had been mixed with water, which was further evidence that there was a clean up in Meredith's room. There was no sign of the of man's bare bloody footprint, which was on the blue bathmat, in Meredith's room and there was only one woman's bloody shoe print on the pillow. These two sets of different sized bloody footprints had been cleaned away. It was very telling that Amanda Knox's lamp was found in Meredith's room and it's quite clear that the lamp was used to remove all traces of Knox and Sollecito from the room.

It makes no sense for Guede to return to the cottage and clean away Knox's and Sollecito's bloody footprints, but leave his own bloody footprint in Meredith's room and not flush his faeces in the toilet. The clean up and staging of the break in were carried out to make it look like Meredith's murder was carried out by a lone wolf who had no connection to the cottage.
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Offline The Bard


User avatar


Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:46 pm

Posts: 2486

Location: UK

PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:06 pm   Post subject:    

The Machine wrote:
martin wrote:
Due to her job, my
girlfriend has been confronted with all kinds of
sexual activities and also sexual perversions, but she told me that she couldn't imagine a girl taking
sexual pleasure in the raping, torturing and killing
of other people - maybe miss represented is wrong


Hi Martin,

Myra Hindley, Rosemary West and Laurie Ann Swank have all helped men sexually assault and kill other people. One of the main reasons that some people seem reluctant to believe that Amanda Knox could have been involved in Meredith's murder is because they can't imagine a woman being involved in such a cruel and sadistic murder. However, presuming the innocence of someone just because they are a woman would be wrong as the cases of Myra Hindley, Rosemary West and Laurie Ann Swank prove.

When I very first read about the case I made an assumption. I believed that Amanda Knox was telling the truth that she hadn't killed Meredith, but had played a lesser role. As more information became available I changed my mind. As soon as I read that Knox and Sollecito were claiming that they couldn't remember most of what happened on the night of the murder because they had smoked cannabis I knew they were lying. Then it emerged that Sollecito and Knox had given conflicting witness statements. Sollecito then admitted that he had lied to the police. I didn't know what roles Knox and Sollecito had played in Meredith's murder, but I believed that they were definitely involved.

The forensic evidence nails Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito:

Amanda Knox's DNA was on handle of the double DNA knife and Meredith's DNA on the blade.

Knox’s footprint was set in Meredith’s blood in the hallway outside Meredith’s room.

A woman’s bloody shoe print that matched Knox’s foot size, which was found on a pillow underneath Meredith’s body.

There were mixed traces of Knox’s DNA and Meredith’s blood on the fixtures in the bathroom the girls shared.

There were three sets of different sized bloody footprints that matched the foot sizes of Knox, Sollecito and Guede at the crime scene.

Sollecito left an abundant amount of his DNA on Meredith’s bra clasp.

Medical experts, Vincenza Liviero and Luca Lalli, stated that they believed that Meredith was attacked by more than one person.

According to Sollecito’s forensic expert, Professor Francesco Vinci, Knox’s DNA was found on Meredith’s bra.

Of course, the forensic experts for Knox and Sollecito will offer an alternative scenario and try to muddy the waters by claiming that much of the damning forensic results are due to contamination. Miss Represented made an excellent point about this in her blog:

"A lot of criticism has been handed to the crime scene officers for supposedly contaminating the crime scene, a question I have is if the crime scene was contaminated where was this endless abundance of AK and RS’s DNA coming from? Was it floating around the house waiting for the CSI guys to pick it up and deposit it in incriminating places?"

It's important to remember that the Italian authorities used la creme de la creme when they chose Patrizia Stefanoni and her colleagues from the scientific police in Rome. Patrizia Stefanoni specialises in identifying the victims of disasters when the authorities are unable to do so. She helped identify the victims of the Tsunami. She is an internationally-renowned forensic expert. The head of the DNA Unit of the scientific police, Renato Biondo, provided independent confirmation that the forensic investigation was carried out correctly, following international protocol and that the results were accurate and reliable. Both Stefanoni and Biondo categorically excluded the possibility of contamination.

I can't stress the significance of the forensic tests results enough. They place Knox and Sollecito at the crime scene of the night of the murder. The double DNA knife indicates that Knox stabbed Meredith. Sollecito's DNA on Meredith bra clasp clearly shows that he cut Meredith's bra with his knife to remove it. It has been definitely established that Meredith's bra was removed some time after she had been killed. Why would have Guede returned to the cottage to remove Meredith's bra? Judge Paolo Micheli's logic in deducing that it had to Knox and Sollecito who returned to the cottage makes perfect sense.

The three sets of different sized bloody footprints, which matched the foot sizes of Knox, Sollecito and Guede, at the crime clearly show that three people were involved in Meredith's murder. The man's bloody footprint on the blue bathmat in the bathroom is highly significant; it doesn't belong to Guede or Knox and it was made in bare feet. Amanda Knox's bloody footprints were also made in bare feet. Nara Capezzali heard two or more people running away from the cottage shortly after she heard Meredith scream. It seems that all three had their shoes on when they attacked Meredith, which means that Knox and Sollecito came back to the cottage and walked around in bare feet in Meredith's blood.

The trail of bloody footprints leading from Meredith's bedroom to the blue bathmat in the bathroom had been cleaned away. This is unequivocal evidence that there was a clean up. Knox and Sollecito had obviously removed their shoes and socks whilst they were taking part in the clean up. The police believe that Knox and Sollecito completely stripped off during the clean up so as to avoid getting Meredith's blood on their clothes. Knox and Sollecito were being very cunning.

The clean up was so extensive there wasn't a single one of Knox's fingerprints in her own room and just one of her fingerprints in the entire cottage. It's another clear indication who was involved in the clean up. I believe that Knox and Sollecito stripped off in Knox's room, which is why it was cleaned so extensively and thoroughly.

Guede lawyers stated at his fast-track trial that some of Meredith's blood had been mixed with water, which was further evidence that there was a clean up in Meredith's room. There was no sign of the of man's bare bloody footprint, which was on the blue bathmat, in Meredith's room and there was only one woman's bloody shoe print on the pillow. These two sets of different sized bloody footprints had been cleaned away. It was very telling that Amanda Knox's lamp was found in Meredith's room and it's quite clear that the lamp was used to remove all traces of Knox and Sollecito from the room.

It makes no sense for Guede to return to the cottage and clean away Knox's and Sollecito's bloody footprints, but leave his own bloody footprint in Meredith's room and not flush his faeces in the toilet. The clean up and staging of the break in were carried out to make it look like Meredith's murder was carried out by a lone wolf who had no connection to the cottage.


Excellent post TM, thank you. Very clear and concise. You raise some very good points. It does not hurt to see the main points summarised like this, even when you've been following the case for a while. With so much discussion it is useful to see the main talking points in a nutshell.
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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:26 pm   Post subject:    

martin wrote:
...I can't imagine a gifted young woman the age
of my girlfriend torturing and killing another human being with pleasure...


Enjoying another's pain is the definition of sadism, isn't it?
That might be one way the unimaginable can be imagined.

Anyway, I can't imagine a 16-year-old murdering her mother,
like Erika Da Nardo did (her boyfriend helped). But she did.
And her father was lucky he didn't meet the same fate.

About a knife-fetishist not wanting to abandon a (prized?) member* of his collection,
especially such a well-looked after and cleaned one:
there is nothing to say (a la spontaneous declaration mode) that "he" "brought" anything back home -
there's one perfectly accommodating trophy girlfriend with a big green bag somewhere in the frame
who would be able to do that on her own volition: an "I never saw Amanda carrying any knife"-type of thing.

Anyway, "back" implies that it "left" his house in the first place,
which has yet to be contested and/or denied in court. There is much to wait for. It's a cat-and-mouse game.

* Just noticed - I am so slow on these things - that "member" has a Freudian connotation,
which adds another layer to the desire of not leaving anything revealing behind.
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Offline martin


Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:28 pm

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:28 pm   Post subject:    

HI TM,
I know that all the evidence leads to them, i am
convinced they took part in the crime (i don't know
to what extent), but something in my brain doesn't
accept the idea of a 21 year old girl torturing
a human being to death. Or are they really insane?
In case of insanity - will they remain in jail or sent
to a special mental hospital?
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Offline petafly


Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:08 pm

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Location: Switzerland/Germany

PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:34 pm   Post subject:    

Hi Martin,
i must admit i believe Rudy's diary in some details, mainly because he was separated after the crime, had no one to talk to and wasn't too aware of the ongoing investigation. And he isn't the smartest and most cunning boy as we know...
He describes e.g. the bloody hallway and writes, he couldn't understand how Amanda could sleep there or take a shower. He was completely unaware of the cleanup! He wouldn't know that!

Anyway he reports Raffaele saying: "Black man found, guilty man found!". It's not impossible that RS said something like this, (we've seen he is a cynic) knowing that no one in the world would believe or wants to believe that the good girl and her gentleman are capable of doing something like that. Don't forget they actually tried to point the finger at Rudy with their partial cleanup...
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:43 pm   Post subject:    

Catnip wrote:
martin wrote:
...I can't imagine a gifted young woman the age
of my girlfriend torturing and killing another human being with pleasure...


Enjoying another's pain is the definition of sadism, isn't it?
That might be one way the unimaginable can be imagined.

Anyway, I can't imagine a 16-year-old murdering her mother,
like Erika Da Nardo did (her boyfriend helped). But she did.
And her father was lucky he didn't meet the same fate.

About a knife-fetishist not wanting to abandon a (prized?) member* of his collection,
especially such a well-looked after and cleaned one:
there is nothing to say (a la spontaneous declaration mode) that "he" "brought" anything back home -
there's one perfectly accommodating trophy girlfriend with a big green bag somewhere in the frame
who would be able to do that on her own volition: an "I never saw Amanda carrying any knife"-type of thing.

Anyway, "back" implies that it "left" his house in the first place,
which has yet to be contested and/or denied in court. There is much to wait for. It's a cat-and-mouse game.

* Just noticed - I am so slow on these things - that "member" has a Freudian connotation,
which adds another layer to the desire of not leaving anything revealing behind.


Erika di Nardo also stabbed to death her 9 years old little brother. He received mutliple stabs ( perhaps more than 10 if I remember well) Erika's mom body was also butchered. After the double killings, Erika made up a story according to which two "albianians " broke into the De Nardi's residence and killed Erika's little brother and her mom while she managed to escape. Erika was considered the mastermind of the killings and she is still in jail. I think Omar, her 16 years old boyfriend, is about to be released on parole-or he has just been released.
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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:04 pm   Post subject:    

The Machine wrote:
It was very telling that Amanda Knox's lamp was found in Meredith's room and it's quite clear that the lamp was used to remove all traces of Knox and Sollecito from the room.


It is telling the wrong lamp was in the wrong room, and the position of the lamp
was perfect for illuminating the back of someone who was being held up by one person
while having their bra cut off by another person (another non-lone-wolf piece of the puzzle).

I need help in stepping through the mechanics of how the lamp could have helped in the clean-up:
- it was on the other side of a sea of blood, so getting to it and using it would have meant
even more (foot)prints on floor and/or mattress and even more cleaning up.
- what was there in that corner that required it to be there for cleaning-up?
- Was it abandoned, or forgotten about? If yes, that would likely place its positioning in the room before the clean-up
or early in the clean-up, rather than during the major part of the clean-up or near the end.
- Who switched it off? (presumably it was off when the door was broken down)
- Why would they switch it off and not then think to retrieve it (and clean it)?
- Did the plug get knocked out or pulled out of the socket/power point? Was it overlooked in the dark?
- Were they any prints on it at all? Even Amanda's?

If covering Meredith was for psychological reasons, then locking her door would be high priority
on the list of things to do - in that situation, it's easy to leave behind things like vaseline and lamps
- but the possibility of fingerprints on those items didn't occur to anyone?
If those items were cleaned as well, then they become part of the staging.

But then I would need help in understanding the "plot" of the staging.
I haven't watched the same films or TV as the stagers.
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Offline FinnMacCool


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:48 pm   Post subject: Testing a hypothesis   

bolint wrote:
Quote:
Finn wrote:
I'm allowing a minute for any serious task, and shorter amounts of time for anything that can be done quickly.

1254 - Raffaele dials 112.
1255 - police arrive.
1256 - they look at Filomena's bedroom and quickly assess it as a faked break-in
1257 - they look at the disappeared poo in the bathroom and manage to locate it
1258 - (twenty seconds to look at Amanda's and Laura's bedrooms)
1258 - (forty seconds to look at bathroom with blood in it)
1259 - Amanda writes down Meredith's phone numbers on a post-it
1300 - Luca and Marco arrive. Luca sees the post-it on the kitchen table, alongside two phones that he mistakenly thinks are the missing phones. (Meanwhile, Amanda and Raffaele disappear into Amanda's bedroom, from which they will later emerge.)
1301 - Filomena and Paola arrive. (Note - in Micheli's report, the girls are supposed to arrive "a few minutes after" the lads. Also Paola says they arrived shortly before one o'clock. But there's not really time for that type of thing, so let's just say they arrive one minute after the lads, and Paola's watch is slow.)
1302 - Filomena talks to Battistelli, and explains how she lent Meredith an Italian phone, and the other one is from the UK
1303 - Battistelli contacts HQ and reports what's happened in the last eight minutes. Police Commissioner incorrectly logs this time as 1300.

Such a strict timeline needs also:
- 30 seconds for the policemen to get to the house from the gates
- The 12:54 call needs to be precised, since it was 48 seconds long and if it was started say at 12:54:50 then the whole timespan till Luca Altieri's arrival gets reduced by about 20%, stepping up the frame/sec.
- Also missing and needs to be estimated the length of the period that they described as "we were waiting in the yard".


We need to assume that the 1254 call starts at 12:54:00, to be honest. And we need to imagine that the police come into view the instant the phone is put down. And no sooner has one set of people arrived than the next ones need to be on the doorstep. And so on.

Even with those allowances, it is simply impossible for everything to happen between 12:54:48 and 13:00:59. And that's why Charlie needs to move the time back from 1300.

There was a stage when Sollecito's lawyers were arguing for a 1305 arrival time.

I haven't been able to track down why everyone's so sure about the 1300 time, except that there seems to be no arguing about it. (I mean, no arguing by the lawyers, or anyone actually connected with the case - people in cyberspace will argue about anything.) Since it's that cellphone ping is confirmed at 1300, I'd imagine that the switching on of that phone probably coincides with the conversation with the policemen at the cottage, in which they confirm that they've spoken to Filomena and she's explained that it's a UK phone. Maybe someone at HQ turns it on during that conversation?

I don't know, it must be something along those lines, but I can't find anywhere that it's made explicit. But the hypothesis clearly doesn't float. The girls arrived "nel giro di qualche altro minuto" after the boys, but I've had to reduce that to a few seconds, rather than a few minutes; similarly I've had to transmute "while we were waiting" to a matter of seconds; and the tour of the crime scene I've speeded up to resemble the closing credits of the Benny Hill show; and I still can't get it to work.

I agree with those people who've been mistrusting watches - I wouldn't want to build a timeline around someone's fallible memory of looking fallibly at their own fallible watch. Ironically, one of the biggest hurdles for that hypothesis comes from a bit of confused testimony - namely, Luca's misinterpretation of what he saw in the kitchen. He got confused about the phones - but he also saw a post-it note with Meredith's phone numbers written on it. The email suggests (and Battistelli confirms) that it was Amanda who provided those phone numbers, and the email suggests (and why would it be otherwise?) that this followed the examination of the house. So Luca needs to arrive after the tour of the house is over. And Paola and Filomena arrive "a few minutes later". And Filomena needs to arrive before the conversation at 1300.

So we've got 1254: emergency call. 1255: police arrive. Tour of the house, faked break-in, bloodstains in the bathroom, Amanda gives phone numbers, Luca and Marco arrive, then Filomena and Paola arrive. Filomena talks to Battistelli, who at 1300 is talking to HQ.

So much to do, so little time.
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:55 pm   Post subject:    

Hi Finn,

I believe Raffaele Sollecio's witness statement adds clarity:

He said he went outside "to see if I could climb up to Meredith's window" but could not. "I tried to force the door but couldn't, and at that point I decided to call my sister for advice because she is a Carabinieri officer. She told me to dial 112 (the Italian emergency number) but at that moment the postal police arrived. He added: "In my former statement I told you a load of rubbish because I believed Amanda's version of what happened and did not think about the inconsistencies." (The Times, 7 November, 2007).

It's strange that Candace Dempsey, Charlie Wilkes, Ferdi, Turtle Dove et al NEVER mention the sentence highlighted above.
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Offline mojo


Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:31 pm

Posts: 225

PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:41 pm   Post subject:    

martin wrote:
Hi mojo,
who is karla homolka? I don't think she ever heard
of her. I don't say they are completely innocent,
there is too much evidence pointing in their
direction. But my gf and I, we just can't imagine
a young woman committing a barbaric crime
like that. By the way: what do you think about the double dna knife "compatible with meredith's
wounds" - i think, a murderer would try to get rid
of the murder weapon as soon as possible - why
didn't he dump it? it was an ordinary kitchen knife,
wasn't it? nothing of worth for a combat knife collector.


martin, homolka is probably one of the worst examples that i can think of with respect to a woman involved in rape and murder of other women.
Karla Homolka

Karla Leanne Homolka, also known as Karla Leanne Teale, (born 4 May, 1970 in Port Credit, Ontario, Canada), is a Canadian serial killer[2] who attracted worldwide media attention when she was convicted of manslaughter in the rape-murders of two teenaged girls; her husband, Paul Bernardo, was convicted of their murders and admitted having raped numerous women.

Homolka and Bernardo also were responsible for the rape and death of her sister Tammy. In return for her confession and testimony against her husband, she was given a plea bargain whereby she escaped the maximum penalty for her crimes. She pleaded guilty to manslaughter and served 12 years in prison. She may now possibly live in a publicly undisclosed location in the Antilles with her son.[b]
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:45 pm   Post subject:    

Finn wrote:

Quote:
We need to assume that the 1254 call starts at 12:54:00, to be honest. And we need to imagine that the police come into view the instant the phone is put down. And no sooner has one set of people arrived than the next ones need to be on the doorstep. And so on.



I have it on good authority that it began at 12:54:39

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:48 pm   Post subject:    

Finn wrote:

Quote:
I don't know, it must be something along those lines, but I can't find anywhere that it's made explicit. But the hypothesis clearly doesn't float. The girls arrived "nel giro di qualche altro minuto" after the boys, but I've had to reduce that to a few seconds, rather than a few minutes; similarly I've had to transmute "while we were waiting" to a matter of seconds; and the tour of the crime scene I've speeded up to resemble the closing credits of the Benny Hill show; and I still can't get it to work.


It seems unlikely that the girls would arrive on the boys' heels, since the boys were dispatched by Filomena because they were able to get there right away. Isn't that what she and others testified?

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:55 pm   Post subject:    

Finn wrote:

Quote:
And the tour of the crime scene I've speeded up to resemble the closing credits of the Benny Hill show; and I still can't get it to work.



I hope the movie version features a Benny Hill moment. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Offline martin


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:55 pm   Post subject:    

thank's mojo,

so this homolka woman is now enjoying the
carribean way of life with sun, beach and
mojitos, all inclusive - did she give interviews
telling how sorry she feels for the victims and
how much she regrets her deeds?
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Offline FinnMacCool


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:58 pm   Post subject:    

I know, TM.

But a defense to that can always be, I was stressed, I was pressured, I wasn't thinking straight.

(It can be a convenient defence, maybe - it means that your own mistakes can be written off to stress and pressure, while any accusatory mistakes are a sign of vindictiveness. But that doesn't mean it can't be true. Just because you're paranoid, that doesn't necessarily mean people aren't out to get you. Even hypochondriacs get sick sometimes.)

So my idea was, let's say he's mistaken, or he's misremembered, or said something stupid under pressure - and let's see if we can make the "police came afterwards" scenario work. And we can't.

Actually, I think a more damaging quote from a defence point of view would be that one (or am I imagining it?) I think from Amanda in December 2007, where she says that she thought the postal police were the people Raffaele just called. I don't have that quote to hand, maybe I've misremembered it.

But that would be an impossible idea to fit into any kind of realistic timetable.

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Offline FinnMacCool


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:00 pm   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Finn wrote:

Quote:
We need to assume that the 1254 call starts at 12:54:00, to be honest. And we need to imagine that the police come into view the instant the phone is put down. And no sooner has one set of people arrived than the next ones need to be on the doorstep. And so on.



I have it on good authority that it began at 12:54:39


Ah, it's only 39 seconds. We'll just have to speed up the fast-forward of the Benny Hill scene a bit.
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Offline FinnMacCool


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:01 pm   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Finn wrote:

Quote:
I don't know, it must be something along those lines, but I can't find anywhere that it's made explicit. But the hypothesis clearly doesn't float. The girls arrived "nel giro di qualche altro minuto" after the boys, but I've had to reduce that to a few seconds, rather than a few minutes; similarly I've had to transmute "while we were waiting" to a matter of seconds; and the tour of the crime scene I've speeded up to resemble the closing credits of the Benny Hill show; and I still can't get it to work.


It seems unlikely that the girls would arrive on the boys' heels, since the boys were dispatched by Filomena because they were able to get there right away. Isn't that what she and others testified?


Unlikely, but say the lads took a wrong turning. That cottage can be a divvil to find if you don't know where you're going.
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:09 pm   Post subject:    

FinnMacCool wrote:
But a defense to that can always be, I was stressed, I was pressured, I wasn't thinking straight.


The problem for Sollecito is that he didn't say that he lied because he was stressed or pressured, but because he had believed what Amanda Knox had told him without thinking about the inconsistencies.

Incidentally, the number of Sollecito's lies is in double figures. His track record on telling the truth isn't very good.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:11 pm   Post subject:    

Martin wrote:

Quote:
but sorry, i can't imagine a gifted young woman the age of my girlfriend torturing and killing another human being with pleasure.


Sometimes the problem is in the formulation. You can't imagine a "gifted young woman the age of my girlfriend" killing "with pleasure".

But surely you can imagine a "young woman" involved in a "killing"? I do not mean to imply anything about Amanda Knox or your girlfriend. But if you take away the notion of "gifted" (and I'm not sure why it is there in the first place) and remove your girlfriend from your thought frame (she doesn't belong in it, unless AK reminds you of your girlfriend), then the idea becomes less personal and emotionally fraught.

The fact is, it is hard for me to imagine anyone I know killing anyone, and I would bet it is the same for most of us. Most of us contemplate killing others in our worst moments ("I could just kill her/him") or fantasize about other people dying (I hate so and so and wish he/she could be removed from my life) - these thoughts don't make us potential killers and most of us recognize them as fantasies. A psychiatrist friend once told me that if all of our death wishes came to life (so to speak) then there would be no people left on earth.

My starting point is merely that anyone could kill another human being, but most of us never would. In your scenario from last night, which has AK and RS standing in the square waiting as RG (or someone) robs Meredith and then kills her, you have to imagine two people who are capable of letting another human being be hurt, leaving her to die and then callously deciding that the only solution is to stage a break-in and do a clean-up in order to avoid any responsibility for what happened. I'm not saying this is what happened. But personally, I can't imagine a gifted and caring young woman (or man) doing something this cold and calculating, and hoping to get away with it by allowing their accomplice to take all the blame.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:13 pm   Post subject:    

Finn wrote:

Quote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Finn wrote:

Quote:
I don't know, it must be something along those lines, but I can't find anywhere that it's made explicit. But the hypothesis clearly doesn't float. The girls arrived "nel giro di qualche altro minuto" after the boys, but I've had to reduce that to a few seconds, rather than a few minutes; similarly I've had to transmute "while we were waiting" to a matter of seconds; and the tour of the crime scene I've speeded up to resemble the closing credits of the Benny Hill show; and I still can't get it to work.


It seems unlikely that the girls would arrive on the boys' heels, since the boys were dispatched by Filomena because they were able to get there right away. Isn't that what she and others testified?


Unlikely, but say the lads took a wrong turning. That cottage can be a divvil to find if you don't know where you're going.


Yes, let's assume that Filomena dispatched people who had never been to her place and didn't know where it was.

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Offline FinnMacCool


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:22 pm   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Yes, let's assume that Filomena dispatched people who had never been to her place and didn't know where it was.


God, you're such a cynic.
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Offline FinnMacCool


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:22 pm   Post subject:    

The Machine wrote:
Incidentally, the number of Sollecito's lies is in double figures. His track record on telling the truth isn't very good.


No kidding.
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:28 pm   Post subject:    

FinnMacCool wrote:
The Machine wrote:
Incidentally, the number of Sollecito's lies is in double figures. His track record on telling the truth isn't very good.


No kidding.


:D :D :D

I think a piece about Sollecito's lies on TJMK is called for. I'd hate him to feel left out.


Last edited by The Machine on Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:30 pm   Post subject:    

Finn wrote:

Quote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:

Yes, let's assume that Filomena dispatched people who had never been to her place and didn't know where it was.


God, you're such a cynic.


You say that, but I'm trying to turn over a new leaf. :)

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Offline Shirley


Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:48 pm

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:57 pm   Post subject:    

martin wrote:
"...but something in my brain doesn't
accept the idea of a 21 year old girl torturing
a human being to death."


It just struck me that this, perhaps, is a sort of sub-category of general fear of death. Life can seem pretty peachy until one remembers that oneself and everyone one knows will die. It's enough to wrap one's mind around death, period, then throw in some torture, murder etc. (not to mention war, natural disasters, illness, accidents etc., etc.) and you've got yourself, at the least, a headache if not some occasional disbelief. I think it was Einstein who said something like without the fear of death we'd all go lay down on railroad tracks. I think it was also Einstein who said have a great weekend everyone.
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Offline Fly by Night


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 5:17 pm   Post subject: Leaving it to the lawyers   

The Machine wrote:
FinnMacCool wrote:
But a defense to that can always be, I was stressed, I was pressured, I wasn't thinking straight.


The problem for Sollecito is that he didn't say that he lied because he was stressed or pressured, but because he had believed what Amanda Knox had told him without thinking about the inconsistencies.

Incidentally, the number of Sollecito's lies is in double figures. His track record on telling the truth isn't very good.


According to Barbie Nadeau's Newsweek Article:

Neither suspect has a credible alibi for the night of the murder, and both told a variety of lies about that night. No one has confessed to the murder, and Guede's testimony this weekend is not expected to shed any light on what really happened. Still, the prosecution maintains that it has enough to convict both Knox and Sollecito. Among the most damning evidence against Sollecito is his DNA on the metal clasp of the bra that was cut from Kercher after she died. Maresca also points out that credible witnesses have shattered Sollecito's alibi for the night of the murder. Sollecito says he was home that night working on his computer, but specialists have testified that his computer was dormant for an eight-hour period the night of Kercher's murder. Sollecito's attorneys contend that their client lied out of confusion and fear.
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Offline disinterested


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 5:46 pm   Post subject: Amanda's melodrama   

Reading over Jools' post about being struck by Amanda's insistence that she was "panicking" about Meredith's closed door, when she demonstrated so many ways in which she was NOT panicking (e.g., leisurely shower amidst the blood stains, later canoodling with Raf while everyone else is totally blown away with fear and grief, etc.)--I think we always have to keep in mind that part of Amanda, which has been identified by some as narcissistic personality disorder, that overwhelms her with a need to be the center of attention, the important one, the one who knows it all, has all the men, etc. Anastasia used the word "melodrama." Drama queen....the story of Me.

Many of us seem to have parts of this whole scenario we come back to again and again, something that just strikes us as especially wrong, bizarre, symbolic or out of place. I think I've brought this one up once before, because it was my own turning point toward believing the possibility of Amanda's guilt:

Filomena said of Knox “She told me: ‘It’s very odd. I’ve just come back to the house and the door is open. I had a shower but there’s blood everywhere. I’m going to get Raff. Meredith is nowhere to be seen. Oh God, maybe something’s happened to her, something tragic’.”

Maybe Amanda didn't really say "something tragic," and that's just how Filomena remembers it--but who would say anything like that? Before anything is known? Like announcing what's behind the door. It's her need for melodrama, the dramatic action in her strange, driven world, and I somehow think it's connected to her ability to dissociate from reality. It comes and goes for her--and suddenly she's covering her ears or hitting her head, when the true reality comes back.

It's hard to believe "a gifted young woman" could murder someone, but she's not a normal happy, gifted girl. And there's a great deal of evidence in history that intelligence and "giftedness" can be part of a profile of mental illness--the tormented artist, the crazy genius. People are complex.

My own Guilty Confession: I'm reading Preston's book, Monster of Florence. I don't want to contribute to his success, but I got curious. (I haven't gotten to the bit about Mignini yet, though. They obviously share a very strange history. This onion has so many layers!)

Didi
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Offline kevin


Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:43 pm

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 5:51 pm   Post subject:    

RS's calls to the police:

One thing about the recording of RS's calls to the police stands out to me.

He starts his first call calmly explaining that there has been a breakin, a window has been broken and there are some traces of blood.

The despatcher then asks if the blood was the result of the broken window (i.e. the intruder cut himself breaking the window).

RS then goes quiet and the call ends abuptly. To me, it sounds like he hadn't anticipated the question, doesn't know how to respond and ends the call. He then calls a second time, when he has had time to compose himself and agree a response with AK?.

Does anyone know how the first call was ended?. During this time at the cottage, the other people are noticing that RS and AK are acting suspiciously, standing apart from the others, mumbling between themselve etc. Laura and her boyfriend became so suspicious that they checked their car for any evidence that could have be planted by RS and AK when they gave them a lift to the police station.

Sometimes it can be difficult to put into words why you think someone is acting suspiciously?, but I think listening to that first call, I think I understand why laura was so suspicious.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 6:47 pm   Post subject:    

Didi wrote:

Quote:
My own Guilty Confession: I'm reading Preston's book, Monster of Florence. I don't want to contribute to his success, but I got curious. (I haven't gotten to the bit about Mignini yet, though. They obviously share a very strange history. This onion has so many layers!)


Just remember that it's fiction, or loosely based on fact at best. Lots of writerly flourishes. Preston is adding a new epilogue about the Kercher case to the paperback edition, hoping to sell a few more copies that way perhaps.

I believe that both he and Spezi have been manipulating things from behind the scenes for some time now. Whether it is to make money or just rattle their enemy, Mignini, is unclear. It is clear that Spezi hates Mignini, however. He is behind the rumor (unfounded) that Mignini consulted with that nutcase Gabriella Carlizzi (who Harry Wilkens is so fond of). As both he and "Frank Sfarzo" were based in Florence - until Frank suddenly got a hankering to return to Perugia, where he was supposedly a student in his younger days - one can at least wonder about a possible connection between them. We still don't know who is funding Frank's blog. Frank posted one day in his comments section that his blog had been funded from the start, but then pulled that post.

Incidentally, I looked into the latest Perugia Shock rumor (with a link to a blog where the writer plugs the CBS show, Knox's innocence, Preston's book and Spezi) about Spezi being "charged again with murder by Mignini". Once again, the reality is far more complex. Some of you may remember that Spezi was caught with a tape recorder trying to illegally tape a meeting with Mignini, and has been charged as a result. He has apparently been charged again in connection with the Narducci case, but the charge is not exactly that he is a murderer. More spin.

On the blog that was linked to, Preston describes Spezi as being destitute, unable to get work, ill, etc., all as a result of Mignini. There is no confirmation of this (that I have found so far) except Preston himself, and he is hardly a neutral reporter in all of this. His financial interests are now tied up with promoting a certain picture of Mignini.

I am not saying that I have any particular insight or that I know exactly who did what to whom in this case. I am just saying that I am very suspicious of the whole thing. It stinks big time.

I am waiting for a calm, balanced, independent and accurate account that is not based on Doug Preston's book or Spezi's long-standing feud with a prosecutor who did not embrace Spezi's view of a crime. There is a citation that used to come up in Google searches, where Preston has a much different view of Mignini. He basically says the man is a good prosecutor and was just doing his job. I have it somewhere, but can't find it online. Also, Spezi and Preston's Italian publisher has also said that this is all about ego and that if Spezi and Preston had information that could have helped the police they should have shared it instead of running their own clandestine parallel investigation.

One day, the calm and balanced piece I am dreaming of will emerge. In the meantime, why not read an entertaining fiction. It's just too bad you didn't wait for the paperback edition and save yourself a few bucks. :)

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Offline Fly by Night


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 7:23 pm   Post subject: Getting the Word out   

The Machine wrote:
I think a piece about Sollecito's lies on TJMK is called for. I'd hate him to feel left out.


You get the word out on TJMK regarding Sollectio's lies and I'll get the word out regarding tomorrow's Preston-Sponsored CBS 48hrs Mystery. I've got the way-easier job because Peter Van Sant has set up a very colorful, large, and hard to miss target. Hard to miss, yes, but so obscure that even if Harry Rag left a comment at the site I'm afraid no one would see it.

Oh, how I absolutely love the lurid cheap-thrill of a dime store detective story and American Girl, Italian Nightmare seems poised to deliver, but the key thing this 2nd 48hrs installment is likely to reveal will simply be who still remains on the Douglas Preston payroll.

I doubt we'll see appearances by any of the Seattle FOA contingent (Extended Knox Family, Bremner, Heavey) because it seems clear they now realize that 1. They have been thoroughly manipulated by vengeful interests (with a bit of marketing on the side) that could care less about the fate of Amanda Knox (or Raffele Sollecito, or Rudy Guede for that matter, not to mention Meredith Kercher), and 2. Having welcomed Preston and his cronies into their camp, Amanda Knox’s defense effort has irreparably damaged.

Since Peter Van Sant is still using terms like "14 hour interrogation with no food or water", "false confession", "completely innocent", and "railroaded" I suspect we'll be hearing more from Paul Ciolino, but also be on the lookout for a cameo appearance by Candace Dempsey, standing in the shadows in her designer-sunglasses disguise - had she remembered to wear them in Seattle at Salty's we never would have recognized her.

I do expect to hear Preston compare his own brutal interrogation by Mignini with the savagely extended interrogation Knox received at the hands of the local Perugia police (not Mignini) - apparently this is simply standard Italian procedure. And I know we'll hear about how the false "confession" (false accusation, actually, but that's a minor point) was literally beaten out of her. But I'm not holding out hope for hearing that Knox is being sued not once, but twice for slander in association with the confessions/accusations she made against Patrik Lumumba and her police interrogator. Oh well, I guess you can only fit so much into an hour long show. Besides, it would be foolish to undermine the fantasies inspired by the show's title with detracting facts.

If Preston is involved I'm sure we'll hear all about the Satanic Rituals that have been grabbing all the headlines regarding this case since day one, or have they? Never mind about that because Van Sant apparently has it directly from Gabriella Carlizzi, Mignini's erstwhile bedmate, that Meredith's murder was ordered by a Satanic sect called the Order of the Red Rose - you know, the one which both Meredith and Amanda belonged to. True, or not? You'll have to watch to find out but don't be tempted to draw your own conclusions - Van Sant Knows!

Satanism aside, I expect Peter Van Sant to clearly demonstrate that had Meredith Kercher been murdered in the USA 1. Things would have been handled differently, and 2. Mignini, insane criminal that he is, would be locked securely away in jail. But hold the 82nd Airborne, Peter, because Meredith's murder did, in fact, happen under Italian jurisdiction and is therefore completely subject to their legitimate legal processes. And even if Mignini were locked away, as (true to dime store novel stylings) I'm sure he should be, this trial would be going forward under the very capable direction of Manuela Commodi and the approval of every Italian judge who has had an opportunity to consider the evidence.
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Offline Fly by Night


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 7:43 pm   Post subject: Talking Points?   

The Bard wrote:
The Machine wrote:
The forensic evidence nails Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito:

Amanda Knox's DNA was on handle of the double DNA knife and Meredith's DNA on the blade.

Knox’s footprint was set in Meredith’s blood in the hallway outside Meredith’s room.

A woman’s bloody shoe print that matched Knox’s foot size, which was found on a pillow underneath Meredith’s body.

There were mixed traces of Knox’s DNA and Meredith’s blood on the fixtures in the bathroom the girls shared.

There were three sets of different sized bloody footprints that matched the foot sizes of Knox, Sollecito and Guede at the crime scene.

Sollecito left an abundant amount of his DNA on Meredith’s bra clasp.

Medical experts, Vincenza Liviero and Luca Lalli, stated that they believed that Meredith was attacked by more than one person.

According to Sollecito’s forensic expert, Professor Francesco Vinci, Knox’s DNA was found on Meredith’s bra.

Of course, the forensic experts for Knox and Sollecito will offer an alternative scenario and try to muddy the waters by claiming that much of the damning forensic results are due to contamination. Miss Represented made an excellent point about this in her blog:

"A lot of criticism has been handed to the crime scene officers for supposedly contaminating the crime scene, a question I have is if the crime scene was contaminated where was this endless abundance of AK and RS’s DNA coming from? Was it floating around the house waiting for the CSI guys to pick it up and deposit it in incriminating places?"

It's important to remember that the Italian authorities used la creme de la creme when they chose Patrizia Stefanoni and her colleagues from the scientific police in Rome. Patrizia Stefanoni specialises in identifying the victims of disasters when the authorities are unable to do so. She helped identify the victims of the Tsunami. She is an internationally-renowned forensic expert. The head of the DNA Unit of the scientific police, Renato Biondo, provided independent confirmation that the forensic investigation was carried out correctly, following international protocol and that the results were accurate and reliable. Both Stefanoni and Biondo categorically excluded the possibility of contamination.

I can't stress the significance of the forensic tests results enough. They place Knox and Sollecito at the crime scene of the night of the murder. The double DNA knife indicates that Knox stabbed Meredith. Sollecito's DNA on Meredith bra clasp clearly shows that he cut Meredith's bra with his knife to remove it. It has been definitely established that Meredith's bra was removed some time after she had been killed. Why would have Guede returned to the cottage to remove Meredith's bra? Judge Paolo Micheli's logic in deducing that it had to Knox and Sollecito who returned to the cottage makes perfect sense.

The three sets of different sized bloody footprints, which matched the foot sizes of Knox, Sollecito and Guede, at the crime clearly show that three people were involved in Meredith's murder. The man's bloody footprint on the blue bathmat in the bathroom is highly significant; it doesn't belong to Guede or Knox and it was made in bare feet. Amanda Knox's bloody footprints were also made in bare feet. Nara Capezzali heard two or more people running away from the cottage shortly after she heard Meredith scream. It seems that all three had their shoes on when they attacked Meredith, which means that Knox and Sollecito came back to the cottage and walked around in bare feet in Meredith's blood.

The trail of bloody footprints leading from Meredith's bedroom to the blue bathmat in the bathroom had been cleaned away. This is unequivocal evidence that there was a clean up. Knox and Sollecito had obviously removed their shoes and socks whilst they were taking part in the clean up. The police believe that Knox and Sollecito completely stripped off during the clean up so as to avoid getting Meredith's blood on their clothes. Knox and Sollecito were being very cunning.

The clean up was so extensive there wasn't a single one of Knox's fingerprints in her own room and just one of her fingerprints in the entire cottage. It's another clear indication who was involved in the clean up. I believe that Knox and Sollecito stripped off in Knox's room, which is why it was cleaned so extensively and thoroughly.

Guede lawyers stated at his fast-track trial that some of Meredith's blood had been mixed with water, which was further evidence that there was a clean up in Meredith's room. There was no sign of the of man's bare bloody footprint, which was on the blue bathmat, in Meredith's room and there was only one woman's bloody shoe print on the pillow. These two sets of different sized bloody footprints had been cleaned away. It was very telling that Amanda Knox's lamp was found in Meredith's room and it's quite clear that the lamp was used to remove all traces of Knox and Sollecito from the room.

It makes no sense for Guede to return to the cottage and clean away Knox's and Sollecito's bloody footprints, but leave his own bloody footprint in Meredith's room and not flush his faeces in the toilet. The clean up and staging of the break in were carried out to make it look like Meredith's murder was carried out by a lone wolf who had no connection to the cottage.


Excellent post TM, thank you. Very clear and concise. You raise some very good points. It does not hurt to see the main points summarised like this, even when you've been following the case for a while. With so much discussion it is useful to see the main talking points in a nutshell.


I would not characterize this as talking points.
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Offline disinterested


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 7:45 pm   Post subject:    

[quote="Skeptical Bystander"

One day, the calm and balanced piece I am dreaming of will emerge. In the meantime, why not read an entertaining fiction. It's just too bad you didn't wait for the paperback edition and save yourself a few bucks. :)
[/quote]


I really am waiting for the balanced/accurate account (ha!). You're skeptical and I'm disinterested--I guess we both want something objective. We may wait forever.

I am reading "Monster of Florence" solely for entertainment value--and curiosity as to how it fits into this whole picture--but with a bucket of salt thrown in. Mr Preston seems to worship Thomas Harris, for one thing. Not my choice for the Nobel Lit award. No doubt however that the Italian culture embraces "la oculta" more than ours does: conspiracy, omerta, fetishes, rituals, hidden intrigue and superstition. I think Darwin may be accepted though (...although he was suspiciously interested in toads).

And it IS a paperback edition--one of those used, 1 cent + postage Amazon offers. I think he's already added the "epilogue," as the Meredith Kercher murder is mentioned (in meaningful context!) in the last few pages, just to cash in on the current hype-value, I'm sure. They probably powered it onto the shelves in a week. As we know, if it's not "cherchez la femme" then it's "follow the money" to explain most questionable behavior--unless you introduce insanity too, then we have a more challenging problem.


Last edited by disinterested on Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:21 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Offline disinterested


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 8:05 pm   Post subject: Van Sant, et al   

Gag...!! I just listened to the Van Sant audio intro to 48 Hours that Stewart had linked above. Talk about the hallowed concept of "American
exceptionalism"...next there will be an Amanda Knox lobbyist to Congress.
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Offline stewarthome2000


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 9:08 pm   Post subject: ..upcoming   

Another taste of what is to come:

http://www.kirotv.com/news/19149730/detail.html

Amanda speaks in court: http://www.kirotv.com/video/19149724/index.html
Exclusive audio tape...hah!!!

Van Sant Interview: http://www.kirotv.com/video/19149777/index.html
This guy is full of it... AK innocent or not, this guy is tabloid garbage at its best...14 hours, 82nd airborne..hah
He is not helping her. I don't trust anyone with beady eyes so close together.
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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 9:41 pm   Post subject: KIRO 7 - CBS in Seattle   

Thanks for the links SH2K. Unbelievable that Seattle's CBS, KIRO 7 is buying this and devoting 7:41 minutes on air with an interview with Peter Van Sant.

Disappointing. I wonder if our other news affiliates, NBC (KING) and ABC (KOMO) will follow suit.
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Offline mojo


Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:31 pm

Posts: 225

PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 9:56 pm   Post subject: Re: ..upcoming   

stewarthome2000 wrote:
Another taste of what is to come:

http://www.kirotv.com/news/19149730/detail.html

Amanda speaks in court: http://www.kirotv.com/video/19149724/index.html
Exclusive audio tape...hah!!!

Van Sant Interview: http://www.kirotv.com/video/19149777/index.html
This guy is full of it... AK innocent or not, this guy is tabloid garbage at its best...14 hours, 82nd airborne..hah
He is not helping her. I don't trust anyone with beady eyes so close together.


he's apparently from seattle....and despite the similarities in name, he's no cliff van zandt. and like his "pal" preston a true crime writer....of dubious talent IMO
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:00 pm   Post subject:    

Tara wrote:

Quote:
Thanks for the links SH2K. Unbelievable that Seattle's CBS, KIRO 7 is buying this and devoting 7:41 minutes on air with an interview with Peter Van Sant.

Disappointing. I wonder if our other news affiliates, NBC (KING) and ABC (KOMO) will follow suit.


They may wait to see what their own national channels do. Maybe they are a little smarter and less entertainment oriented than CBS seems to be, and will wait until the trial has had a chance to progress. It looks like CBS is unaware that a trial is going on now. Their exclusive audio is from last October.

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Offline Jumpy


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:11 pm   Post subject:    

Peter Van Zant (or whatever) is going to look so foolish. I almost feel sorry for him but then I remember Meredith. His interns must smoke a lot of pot and just sit around and eat since their research appears to consist of nothing more than reading Wikipedia. Poor Pete. The guy is probably still hoping for the big break with a show like To Catch a Predator.

I look forward to reading Catnip or FBN's review of the report since I'll be watching The Sound Of Music on ABC on Saturday. And Sunday.


I've noticed the new FOA tactic includes an Albanian Mafia twist because they can no longer deny that there was more than one murderer present the night Meredith was brutally murdered. Oceania must have bitten all of her fingernails and pulled out all of her hair by now - wouldn't want to reside in that household. In fact I've noticed "left-handed Albanian" come up several times now. It reminds me of the cook's frightful anger towards the idea of a clean-up after the murder. Then she seemed to embrace the idea that Rudy went dancing and then came back and cleaned up all night, but forgot to the flush the toilet.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:18 pm   Post subject:    

Jumpy wrote:
Peter Van Zant (or whatever) is going to look so foolish. I almost feel sorry for him but then I remember Meredith. His interns must smoke a lot of pot and just sit around and eat since their research appears to consist of nothing more than reading Wikipedia. Poor Pete. The guy is probably still hoping for the big break with a show like To Catch a Predator.

I look forward to reading Catnip or FBN's review of the report since I'll be watching The Sound Of Music on ABC on Saturday. And Sunday.


I've noticed the new FOA tactic includes an Albanian Mafia twist because they can no longer deny that there was more than one murderer present the night Meredith was brutally murdered. Oceania must have bitten all of her fingernails and pulled out all of her hair by now - wouldn't want to reside in that household. In fact I've noticed "left-handed Albanian" come up several times now. It reminds me of the cook's frightful anger towards the idea of a clean-up after the murder. Then she seemed to embrace the idea that Rudy went dancing and then came back and cleaned up all night, but forgot to the flush the toilet, or whatever.


The Albanian mafia twist seems to be a non-starter, though. I think it should have been more thoroughly researched - maybe Marriott and FOA employ the same interns as CBS - and vetted before being unleashed upon the world. It reads like the plot of a movie with Bruce Willis that I don't want to see.

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Offline Jumpy


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:22 pm   Post subject:    

Uh oh. Looks like you just wrote Frank's screenplay!
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Offline The Bard


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:26 pm   Post subject: Re: Talking Points?   

Fly by Night wrote:
The Bard wrote:
The Machine wrote:
The forensic evidence nails Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito:

Amanda Knox's DNA was on handle of the double DNA knife and Meredith's DNA on the blade.

Knox’s footprint was set in Meredith’s blood in the hallway outside Meredith’s room.

A woman’s bloody shoe print that matched Knox’s foot size, which was found on a pillow underneath Meredith’s body.

There were mixed traces of Knox’s DNA and Meredith’s blood on the fixtures in the bathroom the girls shared.

There were three sets of different sized bloody footprints that matched the foot sizes of Knox, Sollecito and Guede at the crime scene.

Sollecito left an abundant amount of his DNA on Meredith’s bra clasp.

Medical experts, Vincenza Liviero and Luca Lalli, stated that they believed that Meredith was attacked by more than one person.

According to Sollecito’s forensic expert, Professor Francesco Vinci, Knox’s DNA was found on Meredith’s bra.

Of course, the forensic experts for Knox and Sollecito will offer an alternative scenario and try to muddy the waters by claiming that much of the damning forensic results are due to contamination. Miss Represented made an excellent point about this in her blog:

"A lot of criticism has been handed to the crime scene officers for supposedly contaminating the crime scene, a question I have is if the crime scene was contaminated where was this endless abundance of AK and RS’s DNA coming from? Was it floating around the house waiting for the CSI guys to pick it up and deposit it in incriminating places?"

It's important to remember that the Italian authorities used la creme de la creme when they chose Patrizia Stefanoni and her colleagues from the scientific police in Rome. Patrizia Stefanoni specialises in identifying the victims of disasters when the authorities are unable to do so. She helped identify the victims of the Tsunami. She is an internationally-renowned forensic expert. The head of the DNA Unit of the scientific police, Renato Biondo, provided independent confirmation that the forensic investigation was carried out correctly, following international protocol and that the results were accurate and reliable. Both Stefanoni and Biondo categorically excluded the possibility of contamination.

I can't stress the significance of the forensic tests results enough. They place Knox and Sollecito at the crime scene of the night of the murder. The double DNA knife indicates that Knox stabbed Meredith. Sollecito's DNA on Meredith bra clasp clearly shows that he cut Meredith's bra with his knife to remove it. It has been definitely established that Meredith's bra was removed some time after she had been killed. Why would have Guede returned to the cottage to remove Meredith's bra? Judge Paolo Micheli's logic in deducing that it had to Knox and Sollecito who returned to the cottage makes perfect sense.

The three sets of different sized bloody footprints, which matched the foot sizes of Knox, Sollecito and Guede, at the crime clearly show that three people were involved in Meredith's murder. The man's bloody footprint on the blue bathmat in the bathroom is highly significant; it doesn't belong to Guede or Knox and it was made in bare feet. Amanda Knox's bloody footprints were also made in bare feet. Nara Capezzali heard two or more people running away from the cottage shortly after she heard Meredith scream. It seems that all three had their shoes on when they attacked Meredith, which means that Knox and Sollecito came back to the cottage and walked around in bare feet in Meredith's blood.

The trail of bloody footprints leading from Meredith's bedroom to the blue bathmat in the bathroom had been cleaned away. This is unequivocal evidence that there was a clean up. Knox and Sollecito had obviously removed their shoes and socks whilst they were taking part in the clean up. The police believe that Knox and Sollecito completely stripped off during the clean up so as to avoid getting Meredith's blood on their clothes. Knox and Sollecito were being very cunning.

The clean up was so extensive there wasn't a single one of Knox's fingerprints in her own room and just one of her fingerprints in the entire cottage. It's another clear indication who was involved in the clean up. I believe that Knox and Sollecito stripped off in Knox's room, which is why it was cleaned so extensively and thoroughly.

Guede lawyers stated at his fast-track trial that some of Meredith's blood had been mixed with water, which was further evidence that there was a clean up in Meredith's room. There was no sign of the of man's bare bloody footprint, which was on the blue bathmat, in Meredith's room and there was only one woman's bloody shoe print on the pillow. These two sets of different sized bloody footprints had been cleaned away. It was very telling that Amanda Knox's lamp was found in Meredith's room and it's quite clear that the lamp was used to remove all traces of Knox and Sollecito from the room.

It makes no sense for Guede to return to the cottage and clean away Knox's and Sollecito's bloody footprints, but leave his own bloody footprint in Meredith's room and not flush his faeces in the toilet. The clean up and staging of the break in were carried out to make it look like Meredith's murder was carried out by a lone wolf who had no connection to the cottage.


Excellent post TM, thank you. Very clear and concise. You raise some very good points. It does not hurt to see the main points summarised like this, even when you've been following the case for a while. With so much discussion it is useful to see the main talking points in a nutshell.


I would not characterize this as talking points.



Oh please. 'Points of discussion'? 'Salient evidence'? What? I don't know what your point is, but mine was to compliment The Machine on an excellent post...

I say again. THANK YOU MACHINE FOR YOUR EXCELLENT POST.

Was that ok?
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Offline Fly by Night


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:45 pm   Post subject: Re: Talking Points?   

The Bard wrote:
Was that ok?


Not to be picky, and of course you can say it however you please, but for me "talking points" carries an implication of persuasion and I don't believe TM has that as an agenda, in fact, TM comes across as offering simple, well-documented refutations of "talking points", not as countering with yet another set of "talking points", but I'll admit that you have to believe in the possibility of an identifiable, objective truth to see it that way.
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Offline The Bard


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:55 pm   Post subject: Re: Talking Points?   

Fly by Night wrote:
The Bard wrote:
Was that ok?


Not to be picky, and of course you can say it however you please, but for me "talking points" carries an implication of persuasion and I don't believe TM has that as an agenda, in fact, TM comes across as offering simple, well-documented refutations of "talking points", not as countering with yet another set of "talking points", but I'll admit that you have to believe in the possibility of an identifiable, objective truth to see it that way.


I actually have never heard the expression 'talking points' before. I first heard it on here. It must be a US expression. I just did not want to repeat the words 'main points' again! Plus I was in a hurry. This is a cultural expression misunderstanding. I thought it just meant points of discussion or something. My main point was just how good the post was and how it had clarified things in my mind. S'all! :)
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Offline Fly by Night


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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 12:24 am   Post subject: Not about Knox   

Jumpy wrote:
Peter Van Zant (or whatever) is going to look so foolish...I look forward to reading Catnip or FBN's review of the report since I'll be watching The Sound Of Music on ABC on Saturday.


Oh, I'll watch the show and write about it. But I'm sure we've already heard everything they have to offer which is: nothing going nowhere, fast. The giveaway is this: in his interview with Seattle's Julie Frankavilla Peter Van Sant continually refers to the communal "we", as in "we believe" or "we who conducted this investigation and produced this 48hrs show." The "we" he is referring to is not the Knox family, who he goes on to refer to as "they". The "we" can be none other than Douglas Preston, Mario Spezi and their entourage, including DaisyHill Paul. Take note Candace Dempsey: is this really the kind of thing you want to be associated with? This has absolutely nothing to do with Amanda Knox.


Last edited by Fly by Night on Sat Apr 11, 2009 12:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline mylady007


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 12:27 am   Post subject: Re: ..upcoming   

stewarthome2000 wrote:
Van Sant Interview: http://www.kirotv.com/video/19149777/index.html
This guy is full of it... AK innocent or not, this guy is tabloid garbage at its best...14 hours, 82nd airborne..hah
He is not helping her. I don't trust anyone with beady eyes so close together.


The best thing he said was that she was going to be convicted and spend the next 30 years in prison.

Let it be. Let it be.
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Offline Fly by Night


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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 12:56 am   Post subject: Re: ..upcoming   

mylady007 wrote:
The best thing he said was that she was going to be convicted and spend the next 30 years in prison.


And that's probably true - because Van Sant KNOWS that the EVIDENCE and TESTIMONY are OVERWHELMING. But Van Sant could care less about what happens to Amanda Knox, and even less about getting to the truth about what happened to Meredith Kercher.

If you watch the 48hrs show, consider what the show is really about. Knox? Kercher? Italian Police? The Italian Justice System? Or does it all seem to come down to Mignini? Try to remind yourself that even if they took Mignini completely out of the picture we would still be exactly where we are today in the trial process - same charges, same testimony, same evidence, and I have to say I agree with Peter Van Sant on this: in all likelihood, the same verdict.
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2310

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:16 am   Post subject:    

Doug Preston has written an awful piece about the case and banged on about the Monster of Florence and Mignini again on The Wrap website. There is a comments sections, so feel free to let Dougie know how you feel about him trying to promote his book/film on the back of the Meredith Kercher case or perhaps, ask him how he can tell that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are innocent just by looking at their photographs.

http://www.thewrap.com/blog-entry/2354
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Offline Ferret


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Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:21 am

Posts: 101

Location: Hidden Hills, CA

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:23 am   Post subject:    

martin wrote:
I spent last night at my girlfriend's house, we read
miss represented's last blog. Due to her job, my
girlfriend has been confronted with all kinds of
sexual activities and also sexual perversions, but she told me that she couldn't imagine a girl taking
sexual pleasure in the raping, torturing and killing
of other people - maybe miss represented is wrong
and - don't crucify me - ak and rs did not kill her.
Maybe they for some unknown reason were waiting at the place above the house (where they have been spotted by the homeless - he couldnt' remember wether they stayed there the whole time or wether they left and came back - rg has not been with them)


Rape isn't about pleasure to the perpetrator. Rape is about total control and power over another person, with the use of physical assault or the threat of physical assault or death. In many ways, rape can be in the same crime statistic category as assault. Rape isn't about sex, many rapists will lose their erections during a rape, given they have to keep the victim in a terrified state and helpless. An obvious way to show total power over a person, is control over the victim's genitals.

Do women rape? yes they do, but it is very small sampling of reported criminal statistics. (Rape is notoriously under reported) Much like there are female sociopaths, but it is a very small sampling of the population of the whole. Half the problem in studying rape, is getting accurate statistics to find how systemic the problem is in a society. Rape could twice or three times what the annual statistics of rape assaults in a society.

I would look up "hybristophilia", and you see many women who were convicted of very gruesome crimes, believe to be suffering from it. (women like Karla Homolka and Myra Hindley)

Miss Represented wasn't wrong.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:26 am   Post subject:    

Mojo wrote:

Quote:
stewarthome2000 wrote:
Another taste of what is to come:

http://www.kirotv.com/news/19149730/detail.html

Amanda speaks in court: http://www.kirotv.com/video/19149724/index.html
Exclusive audio tape...hah!!!

Van Sant Interview: http://www.kirotv.com/video/19149777/index.html
This guy is full of it... AK innocent or not, this guy is tabloid garbage at its best...14 hours, 82nd airborne..hah
He is not helping her. I don't trust anyone with beady eyes so close together.


he's apparently from seattle....and despite the similarities in name, he's no cliff van zandt. and like his "pal" preston a true crime writer....of dubious talent IMO


THE HILLS ARE ALIVE, WITH THE SOUND OF BULLSHIT

Well, he certainly is full of shit. Excuse my language, but I just listened to his 7-minute interview with the local journalist, or at least part of it. I stopped after his descrption of the reporting on this case, especially in the US. Anyone who has been following this case knows how it has been reported in the US and how much fluffy air time has been arranged by Marriott. But Peter Pan tells a different story: He says that Italy has the most irresponsible tabloid press on the planet and that local Seattle papers like the Times and the PI can't afford to send reporters over to cover the story, so they hire "stringers". What these stringers do is translate articles from the Italian tabloids into English and, via the local newspaper circuit which prints them, they get recycled (he says they get "filtered" or "laundered" like we are talking about Mafia money being invested in life insurance policies) and become legitimate news.

I am sure that someone like Andrea Vogt, who has been filing stories for the PI, and Marta Falconi, whose AP stories have appeared, will be really pleased to hear this. Andrea Vogt is based in Bologna, so this means she travels to Perugia to spend Fridays and Saturdays sitting in the courtroom for hours on end. She is fluent in Italian (I wonder if Peter Pan is?). I would imagine that as soon as the session ends, she has to sit down - like the other serious reporters covering this case - and turn out a fair and accurate report under very tight deadlines. Her reporting for the PI has been excellent. It is quite simply a lie to claim that people like Andrea Vogt are translating Italian tabloids instead of doing their jobs. I hope that someone brings this to her attention, and to the attention of other hard-working reporters who have put in time and provided us with accurate reporting from the courtroom. It deserves to be addressed. Peter Pan will probably take comfort in the fact that he didn't actually name names. Mais ça commence mal pour lui!

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Offline Ferret


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Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:21 am

Posts: 101

Location: Hidden Hills, CA

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:01 am   Post subject:    

mojo wrote:
martin wrote:
Hi mojo,
who is karla homolka? I don't think she ever heard
of her. I don't say they are completely innocent,
there is too much evidence pointing in their
direction. But my gf and I, we just can't imagine
a young woman committing a barbaric crime
like that. By the way: what do you think about the double dna knife "compatible with meredith's
wounds" - i think, a murderer would try to get rid
of the murder weapon as soon as possible - why
didn't he dump it? it was an ordinary kitchen knife,
wasn't it? nothing of worth for a combat knife collector.


martin, homolka is probably one of the worst examples that i can think of with respect to a woman involved in rape and murder of other women.
Karla Homolka[b]


Karla Homolka is a monster, but she knew how to use the Ontario Criminal Justice system. She got a very good lawyer from the start, (she treated his dog at the Vet clinic she worked at) She did a very good job in playing victim or manipulating the psychiatrist (s) that had sessions with her. She took the plea bargain at the right opportune time. (she was aiming for no prison time)

She would be serving life in prison without parole if the videotapes of the rapes and murders were found before she was offered a plea deal. The Crown needed her to put Bernardo away, but it was redundant once the videotapes found in their the Bernardos' house, after she was sentenced.


Last edited by Ferret on Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Tara


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Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:04 am   Post subject: Dateline   

The Machine wrote:
Doug Preston has written an awful piece about the case and banged on about the Monster of Florence and Mignini again on The Wrap website. There is a comments sections, so feel free to let Dougie know how you feel about him trying to promote his book/film on the back of the Meredith Kercher case or perhaps, ask him how he can tell that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are innocent just by looking at their photographs.

http://www.thewrap.com/blog-entry/2354



Before Meredith Kercher was found brutally slain in Perugia, Datline NBC did a special on the Monster of Florence titled MURDER ON LOVERS LANE. I saw it way back then and I have just rewatched and reread the story on the internet.

I'm a bit confused. You see, throughout the entire program and transcript there is NOT ONE MENTION of Mignini. There is a cop, Michele Giuttari, who is the person that Preston and Spezi focus their anger on.

Fast forward to the Murder of Meredith Kercher. Suddenly Mignini has become the target of Preston and Spezi and this cop is never mentioned in recent mention of the Monster of Florence.

What's going on? And, please don't ask me to go read the book. Dateline's enough for me. Since the FOA places great faith in programs like 48 Hours and Dateline, I'm sure Doug Preston and Mario Spezi were pleased with this program when it was aired.

Once again, NO MENTION OF MIGNINI.



Here's an excerpt from the program with host, Stone Phillips:



"Doug Preston: Well, it was a threat. In Italian it's even more of a threat than it is in English.
Stone Phillips: As you left his home after speaking to him, what did you think?
Mario Spezi: Well. Me and Doug we were silent. We enter our car. And then almost the same time, we say it's him.

If it was him -- if Carlo was the monster -- it was a stunning moment. It would make a great ending to their book on the monster case. But at the same time, another author was also at work on that other theory of the crimes.

Giuttari: I believe I have done my duty, seriously and for many years. I wanted to make the recent developments official in my book so that this story is not forgotten.

Florence police inspector Michele Giuttari was writing his own book, and who could blame him? Books on the monster case are big sellers in Italy. Giuttari thought he had compelling evidence that a satanic cult was behind the monster killings, such as that oddly shaped stone found at one of the murder scenes.

Giuttari: [in Italian] A uniquely shaped rock was found in the form of a truncated pyramid, to which the experts on satanism granted importance.

Florence was intrigued. Mario Spezi was amused.

Spezi: I called some friends of mine. And in an afternoon, I find -- I found seven.
Stone Phillips: Seven of these?
Mario Spezi: Yes, it's a common object.

What was this strangely carved stone?

Preston: An antique Tuscan doorstop. You can find them in antique stores all over Tuscany.

The foundation of the satanic cult theory was a doorstop. Spezi soon published his findings in the newspaper.

Preston: And he ridiculed Giuttari. Ridiculed him.

It was a classic spat between two writers, except that one of the writers was also a cop.

Preston: The police arrived at Spezi's apartment. Six o'clock in the morning. Turned the place upside-down. And -- then behind Spezi's door, they found the doorstop. Later in the report they made they said that now they had evidence that connected Spezi directly to the scene of one of the crimes and to the satanic sect.

It seemed incredible. But it was no joke.

Doug Preston: Here's a guy who knows everything. He's followed the case obsessively.
Stone Phillips: And he had the hexagonal stone.
Doug Preston: And he had the hexagonal stone.

Mario Spezi, a reporter, also became a suspect.

Stone Phillips: So you are under investigation?
Mario Spezi: Yes.
Stone Phillips: For murder.
Mario Spezi: For murder."
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Offline Jumpy


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:06 am   Post subject:    

Yes, again everyone connected with this case, including the judges who have reviewed the 10,000 page case file and warranted enough evidence to move forward with a trial, the police investigators, the forensic dna, witness statements, prosecution analysis, and the ever changing alibis and accusations by the suspects themselves, are wrong. Raffaele Sollecito, Amanda Knox and Rudy Guede just couldn't catch a break.

Thank goodness the brilliant Peter Van Sant just got on board and cracked the case. Pulitzer anyone?
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:14 am   Post subject:    

Jumpy wrote:

Quote:
Thank goodness the brilliant Peter Van Sant just got on board and cracked the case. Pulitzer anyone?



Thanks, but I'd rather have a Heineken if you don't mind. :)

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Offline Tara


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Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

Posts: 1010

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:25 am   Post subject: Peter Pan VS Moses   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Jumpy wrote:

Quote:
Thank goodness the brilliant Peter Van Sant just got on board and cracked the case. Pulitzer anyone?



Thanks, but I'd rather have a Heineken if you don't mind. :)



Well, I just checked the programming for Saturday night and what the competition will be for old Peter Pan Sant, and he's up against:

8:00pm - 11:00pm, KOMO (4)
The Ten Commandments
Cecil B. DeMille s grandiose epic about the life of Moses (Charlton Heston) boasts an all-star cast and Oscar-winning special effects. Unforgettable,



Better luck next time Pete. I wonder if Salty's will be hosting a group showing for the FOA? Sadly, I'll bet KIRO 7's (CBS) ratings will take a hit tomorrow night!

Skep:

Thanks ever so much - you have changed the way I will be singing The Sound of Music forever!
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Offline jw


Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 6:06 am

Posts: 177

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:38 am   Post subject:    

Catnip wrote:

* Just noticed - I am so slow on these things - that "member" has a Freudian connotation,
which adds another layer to the desire of not leaving anything revealing behind.


Catnip wrote:
* Just noticed - I am so slow on these things - that "member" has a Freudian connotation,
which adds another layer to the desire of not leaving anything revealing behind.


Hello Catnip,

For a potential analytic romp, check out RS's German Erasmus Year Diary which exists in the "In Their Own Words" section here onsite.

I'd be interested in any Italian speaker's comments on this document. I'm wondering whether it reads as bizarrely as it seems to an Italian language ignorant (me) blindly groping for translation. The rutabaga and dance scenes were particularly disturbing.

Thanks, Catnip, for all of the excellent translation and media summaries/collations that you generously provide for us.

Cheers / Mmmmrrrrrrrrooooow!
jw
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Offline DLW


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:41 pm

Posts: 623

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:50 am   Post subject:    

I watched a little over 7 min. of Peter Van Sant trying to pump up excitement on the upcoming 48 hr special, and I nearly fell asleep. This guy makes me feel like he should be reporting on traffic jams not complicated murder mysteries. He needs a real ball buster on that show also, somebody like Paul C. or maybe Arnold Schwarzenegger. Also I don’t want to watch a full hour on how bad Mignini is anyways. I’m hoping that they put in some more bucks into the cinematography, and broadcast in High Definition. If not, I may just opt for the 1956 classic the Ten Commandments.
I’m also not so sure if that audio clip of Amanda talking to the judge will do much good. She comes across much more as someone who has a lot to hide with a few loose wires, than a sympathetic character describing how they were tortured into a confession.
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Offline Jumpy


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:52 am   Post subject:    

Tara,
Is there a valid comparison between Peter Van Sant and Captain Von Trapp? I think not!
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:57 am   Post subject:    

DLW wrote:

Quote:
I watched a little over 7 min. of Peter Van Sant trying to pump up excitement on the upcoming 48 hr special, and I nearly fell asleep. This guy makes me feel like he should be reporting on traffic jams not complicated murder mysteries. He needs a real ball buster on that show also, somebody like Paul C. or maybe Arnold Schwarzenegger. Also I don’t want to watch a full hour on how bad Mignini is anyways. I’m hoping that they put in some more bucks into the cinematography, and broadcast in High Definition. If not, I may just opt for the 1956 classic the Ten Commandments.
I’m also not so sure if that audio clip of Amanda talking to the judge will do much good. She comes across much more as someone who has a lot to hide with a few loose wires, than a sympathetic character describing how they were tortured into a confession.


I had that same sense of.... boredom. I think CBS felt that, after Paul C's ball busting performance - in which he mainly had his balls busted by the much wilier Nara Capazalli - it needed someone with a little more gravitas. So they went with someone who looks and sounds like he should be doing commercials for Viagra. I can almost picture him smiling as he dances around a suburban kitchen with his bemused wife.

I hadn't thought of Amanda's statement in the way you indicate, but it does sound as if it were read, which it was. There is an actorly quality to it.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:59 am   Post subject:    

JW wrote:

Quote:
I'd be interested in any Italian speaker's comments on this document. I'm wondering whether it reads as bizarrely as it seems to an Italian language ignorant (me) blindly groping for translation. The rutabaga and dance scenes were particularly disturbing.


It would be great if the amazing Catnip could shine his lights on this one. It is truly perplexing.

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Offline Tara


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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:00 am   Post subject: Peter Pan vs Captain Von Trapp   

Jumpy wrote:

Quote:
Tara,
Is there a valid comparison between Peter Van Sant and Captain Von Trapp? I think not!


:lol: :lol: :lol: Jumpy! Perish the thought! Captain Von Trapp is my hero!

Pete Pan Sant needs his own song...
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Offline Tara


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Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:04 am   Post subject: Translation   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
JW wrote:

Quote:
I'd be interested in any Italian speaker's comments on this document. I'm wondering whether it reads as bizarrely as it seems to an Italian language ignorant (me) blindly groping for translation. The rutabaga and dance scenes were particularly disturbing.


It would be great if the amazing Catnip could shine his lights on this one. It is truly perplexing.


Thanks for bringing that up JW. I think some have tried but it's so twisted, sick and bizarre that the project was abandoned.

Catnip...beware! But it would be great to have the translation.
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Offline jw


Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 6:06 am

Posts: 177

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 5:19 am   Post subject: Re: Translation   

Tara wrote:



Thanks for bringing that up JW. I think some have tried but it's so twisted, sick and bizarre that the project was abandoned.


I was afraid of that, Tara - but wait! Wasn't it written by that "perfectly normal, shy young man" ? Or "kid" ?

If only RS's computer drive had not been compromised - I think it might have enabled a more accurate portrayal.

I also think that Miss Represented's latest piece was striking close to the mark.

jw
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Offline Tara


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Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 7:38 am   Post subject: Seattle PI   

I wonder if Levi Pulkkinen at 206-448-8348 or levipulkkinen@seattlepi.com even watched the KIRO 7 CBS promo where Peter Van Sant said such degrading things about the Seattle coverage of this case.

I would think everyone who writes about this murder for media outlets in the Seattle area would take offense.

I wonder if Candace Dempsey is offended?

I thought Levi Pulkkinen was better than this.

SEATTLE PI, LEVI PULKKINEN
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Offline petafly


Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:08 pm

Posts: 278

Location: Switzerland/Germany

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 9:11 am   Post subject:    

The italian blogger Alessandra Buccheri writes about the upcoming CBS show, headline "When a writer meets reality"
http://angolonero.blogosfere.it/2009/04 ... -knox.html
Google translate:
http://translate.google.de/translate?u= ... e&ie=UTF-8

Quote: "I am uncertain whether to call it disturbing or hazardous"
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Offline nicki

Forensics Moderator


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Posts: 847

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 9:42 am   Post subject: Re: Translation   

Tara wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
JW wrote:

Quote:
I'd be interested in any Italian speaker's comments on this document. I'm wondering whether it reads as bizarrely as it seems to an Italian language ignorant (me) blindly groping for translation. The rutabaga and dance scenes were particularly disturbing.


It would be great if the amazing Catnip could shine his lights on this one. It is truly perplexing.


Thanks for bringing that up JW. I think some have tried but it's so twisted, sick and bizarre that the project was abandoned.

Catnip...beware! But it would be great to have the translation.


Hi Tara,

I am not Catnip but I guess I can still give you a native-speaker opinion :lol: . There isn't anything really bizarre about Sollecito's writings. Just the use of a lot of slang words and juvenile jargon. I hear that every day at the University where I teach.
Cheers,
Nicki
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Offline Tara


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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 9:49 am   Post subject:    

Hi Nicki,

I just sent you an email. :)
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Offline stewarthome2000


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Posts: 152

Location: Perugia, Italy

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 12:43 pm   Post subject: knife fights...   

Ciao Tutti!
Upon doing some amateur DNA research for the soon-to-come hearings, I found this very short albeit interesting article referencing the case:

http://www.eyeondna.com/2007/11/21/how- ... f-a-knife/

BTW I have not seen any evidence or suggestion by the prosecution that an extensive or bleach "cleanup" job occured at VdP.
If anyone has something on that, pls share. New articles don't count. I have found most are unreliable. Feel free to PM me.
I am gonna keep researching the DNA and knife issue as I feel that may be what signficantly tips the scale for one side or the other.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 12:56 pm   Post subject: Re: knife fights...   

stewarthome2000 wrote:
Ciao Tutti!
Upon doing some amateur DNA research for the soon-to-come hearings, I found this very short albeit interesting article referencing the case:

http://www.eyeondna.com/2007/11/21/how- ... f-a-knife/

BTW I have not seen any evidence or suggestion by the prosecution that an extensive or bleach "cleanup" job occured at VdP.
If anyone has something on that, pls share. New articles don't count. I have found most are unreliable. Feel free to PM me.
I am gonna keep researching the DNA and knife issue as I feel that may be what signficantly tips the scale for one side or the other.



Hi Stewart, I don't think we've got to that stage of evidence in the trial yet. However, I do think it has been hinted at as something that may come up later, in that the prosecution made a point of asking Laura and Filomena who was responsible for the bulk of the cleaning of the cottage and when they replied it was them, they were asked if they did so using bleach containing products. So that's quite suggestive. Having said all that, for some months, unless referring to the knife, when making posts I have tended to refrain as much as possible from using the term 'bleached' in regard to the cottage, instead simply using the wording 'clean-up'. I think that's probably the correct way to go until such time we gain some form of confirmation of bleach use in the cottage, in the way of argument or evidence from the prosecution.

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Offline stewarthome2000


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Location: Perugia, Italy

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:38 pm   Post subject: Re: knife fights...   

Michael wrote:
Hi Stewart, I don't think we've got to that stage of evidence in the trial yet. However, I do think it has been hinted at as something that may come up later, in that the prosecution made a point of asking Laura and Filomena who was responsible for the bulk of the cleaning of the cottage and when they replied it was them, they were asked if they did so using bleach containing products. So that's quite suggestive. Having said all that, for some months, unless referring to the knife, when making posts I have tended to refrain as much as possible from using the term 'bleached' in regard to the cottage, instead simply using the wording 'clean-up'. I think that's probably the correct way to go until such time we gain some form of confirmation of bleach use in the cottage, in the way of argument or evidence from the prosecution.


Ciao Michael! come stai?
Absolutely... but I was also talking about any type of clean up. Where did the idea of any clean up at the cottage come from?
If there was, it could be quite incriminating, but I never heard the prosecution mention it. But we hear repeatedly about RS and AK returning to the cottage and cleaning up, which they may have intended to before being surprised by the postal police. But then again a 12:30 clean up is a bit late and they had no bleach on them. I also distinguish "clean up" from "staging", such as the rock, broken window, etc.
So far I see nothing that even suggests a clean up of the crime scene in any manner. Hence, I am asking others who post who may be able to clarify, is there or is there not evidence of a "clean up" (i.e. erasing evidence) of the crime scene. If so, where?
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Offline petafly


Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:08 pm

Posts: 278

Location: Switzerland/Germany

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:59 pm   Post subject:    

Ciao Stewart,
Rudy mentioned a major cleanup mediately in his diary (i know, he's not the best source, but why should he lie about that?):
Quote:
I am asking myself how is it possible that Amanda
could have slept in all that mess, and took a shower
with all that blood in the bathroom and corridor?

There was no blood in the corridor the next morning, was it? Rudy wouldn't know that, he had no clue. Ergo: Clean-up!
And don't forget the luminol evidence, with only two or three different footprints, Raffaele already looked at them in court...
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Offline mojo


Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:31 pm

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:03 pm   Post subject:    

i'll be interested to know what was in the washer....only clothes?? or rags as well?? was bleach involved there?

and if clothes -- WHOSE?
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Offline stewarthome2000


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:28 pm   Post subject:    

mojo wrote:
i'll be interested to know what was in the washer....only clothes?? or rags as well?? was bleach involved there?

and if clothes -- WHOSE?


The squadra mobile report dated Nov 7, 2007, listed (in summary) the following items taken from the washing machine that day, which they described as "still humid". About 8 shirts (various tees with print "beatles", universita per stranieri, pop art london, polo, zara, etc.), three towels, a number of pairs of sox, and underwear. The contents were reviewed by Romanelli and she separated and accounted for the items indicating to whom each belonged. Only Meredith's and Amandas items were in the machine. No rags or "stracci" found. One report described the findings as insignificant.

To Petafly...ergo? Need more than that.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:32 pm   Post subject:    

Tara wrote:

Quote:
Peter Van Sant said such degrading things about the Seattle coverage of this case.

I would think everyone who writes about this murder for media outlets in the Seattle area would take offense.

I wonder if Candace Dempsey is offended?

I thought Levi Pulkkinen was better than this.


He wasn't talking about local reporters or bloggers. He was specifically talking about "stringers" -- ie, reporters based in the country where the event is taking place, who file stories for the local papers or media, which can't afford to send one of their own reporters over (or simply doesn't want to pay that kind of money).

In fact, he can only have been talking about Andrea Vogt. She is the only reporter I know of who is based in Italy and working under contract for a local paper. So though he doesn't mention her by name, he is clearly referring to her. I would be fuming; he implies that she just sits down with the Italian tabloids and translates them. This is so far from the truth it would be laughable if he weren't tarnishing her reputation in the process.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:41 pm   Post subject: Re: knife fights...   

stewarthome2000 wrote:
Michael wrote:
Hi Stewart, I don't think we've got to that stage of evidence in the trial yet. However, I do think it has been hinted at as something that may come up later, in that the prosecution made a point of asking Laura and Filomena who was responsible for the bulk of the cleaning of the cottage and when they replied it was them, they were asked if they did so using bleach containing products. So that's quite suggestive. Having said all that, for some months, unless referring to the knife, when making posts I have tended to refrain as much as possible from using the term 'bleached' in regard to the cottage, instead simply using the wording 'clean-up'. I think that's probably the correct way to go until such time we gain some form of confirmation of bleach use in the cottage, in the way of argument or evidence from the prosecution.


Ciao Michael! come stai?
Absolutely... but I was also talking about any type of clean up. Where did the idea of any clean up at the cottage come from?
If there was, it could be quite incriminating, but I never heard the prosecution mention it. But we hear repeatedly about RS and AK returning to the cottage and cleaning up, which they may have intended to before being surprised by the postal police. But then again a 12:30 clean up is a bit late and they had no bleach on them. I also distinguish "clean up" from "staging", such as the rock, broken window, etc.
So far I see nothing that even suggests a clean up of the crime scene in any manner. Hence, I am asking others who post who may be able to clarify, is there or is there not evidence of a "clean up" (i.e. erasing evidence) of the crime scene. If so, where?



Bieni graci. Well, aside from multiple refernces to a clean-up from both the media and ILE over the last year and a quarter, there is also the very clear story the crimes scene itself shows. When you have bathroom furniture which is completely drenched in blood but is only revealed under chemical enhancement, numerous bare bloody footprints which only show under luminol, combined with visual orphaned bloody footprints with no visible prints leading up to them (eg, the print on the bathmat, missing Guede prints from his print in the bedroom leading to his prints in the corridor), in addition to the fact there is only one of Amanda's fingerprints in the whole cottage (on a glass in the kitchen), plus various pools of blood which 'were' there but are no longer, it's really quite apparent. Throw in such factors as the lamps for example and a story emerges.

The crime scene is invaluable, due to the numerous photos released, it is something we can examine ourselves directly, without having to rely on statements by third parties. Whilst there are certain elements from the crime scene that could benefit from further confirmation or ellaboration from expert testimony, what we currently already have access to tells us a an in depth story in itself.

Whilst as you say, the clean-up and the staging were two seperate acts, they are also symbiotic in that the clean-up was also intended to form part of the staging...the staging of a crime committed by one lone individual

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Offline petafly


Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:08 pm

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Location: Switzerland/Germany

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:45 pm   Post subject:    

Quote:
To Petafly...ergo? Need more than that.

Well, i'm not in Perugia, or at court or met the judge in town lately... :roll:
You're making me nervous, Stew! I see you are in serious doubt. But why? Have you seen/read/heard anything?

Btw thanx for the washing machine info!
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Offline stewarthome2000


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Location: Perugia, Italy

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:36 pm   Post subject: ...clearing up the clean up   

petafly wrote:
Quote:
To Petafly...ergo? Need more than that.

Well, i'm not in Perugia, or at court or met the judge in town lately... :roll:
You're making me nervous, Stew! I see you are in serious doubt. But why? Have you seen/read/heard anything?

Btw thanx for the washing machine info!


Hehehehe…. No need to get nervous!
I am putting together a chart of evidence against AK and RS, and using a theoretical point system which weighs any and all evidence and quantifies it with a number. Its' been jeeez 20 years plus since I first read about it in a legal journal. It’s just for my own interest, which I will eventually share. For example, lying about ones whereabouts during the crime is say 1 point. Then confirmed tampering with evidence is say 2pts, verified threats against the victim .5 points, confession (depending on context) is worth 4 points, etc etc. If you arrive at 10, you have shown enough strength to yield a high likelihood of conviction. If you arrive at 5 or less, it’s more likely an acquittal or an eventual acquittal. It’s like the straws on a camel’s back...put enough and it breaks, not enough and it goes on its merry way.

By listing and attributing weight to each piece of VERIFIED evidence, we can show there if there is enough traction for conviction. But we have to separate fact from conjecture. So far there are been so much bullshite, half of what we “knew” was evidence turned out to be cazzate. For example, I recall many saying the knife was found hidden in Sollecto’s closet in shoe box. That story went around for months. Murder weapon found, and murder weapon found hidden in suspects house have different weights. So far, my list is looking about 50/50… but its building.

If I read for example the fact that, forensic expert X examined the crime scene and has documented recent attempts to clean and erase evidence, va bene. If I am told, "Rudy said", or the "timesonline states", or to look at the pictures it obvious...c’mon. Thus far, it has not been mentioned by the prosecution in any capacity… just newspapers and amateur CSI onlookers. I can say this with confidence, forget trying to figure things out with newspaper articles and leaked photos. So before I add it to the against list, I want to know if it is part of the prosecution's evidence or not. In my experience, if it has not been mentioned by the prosecution by now, it’s not part of the case. But I am also willing to say, I dunno?! Vediamo. I will try to find out more.


,
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:53 pm   Post subject:    

SH2000 wrote:

Quote:
Thus far, it has not been mentioned by the prosecution in any capacity.


Except the questions to Filomena and Laura about who cleaned the cottage floors habitually and if products containing bleach were used. They said they were the cleaners and no bleach was ever used. I assume this question was asked for a reason but this line has yet to be pursued. I think it is pointless to speculate further until and unless the issue is addressed in the courtroom.


I'm a little surprised that people here have not commented more extensively on Finn's recent work. Didn't the prosecutor once say that the phone records confounded the story told by Knox and Sollecito? If you look at what the phone records say (and Finn's information is totally accurate on this count), and at what the email says, and at what the witnesses arriving on the scene have testified, and even at Sollecito's prison diary account of the "discovery", I think you will see that something is very rotten in Denmark.

At about what time did AK and RS separate themselves after the arrival of the police? For how long? What time did AK call her mom and RS call his sister and then 112 (twice)?

Is there anyone out there who thinks that all of the events that we know took place could have occurred between 12:55 pm and 13:00 pm? Is this remotely possible? Why does AK not mention in her email that she called her mother?

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Offline Tara


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Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

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Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:58 pm   Post subject: Loyalty   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Tara wrote:

Quote:
Peter Van Sant said such degrading things about the Seattle coverage of this case.

I would think everyone who writes about this murder for media outlets in the Seattle area would take offense.

I wonder if Candace Dempsey is offended?

I thought Levi Pulkkinen was better than this.


He wasn't talking about local reporters or bloggers. He was specifically talking about "stringers" -- ie, reporters based in the country where the event is taking place, who file stories for the local papers or media, which can't afford to send one of their own reporters over (or simply doesn't want to pay that kind of money).

In fact, he can only have been talking about Andrea Vogt. She is the only reporter I know of who is based in Italy and working under contract for a local paper. So though he doesn't mention her by name, he is clearly referring to her. I would be fuming; he implies that she just sits down with the Italian tabloids and translates them. This is so far from the truth it would be laughable if he weren't tarnishing her reputation in the process.




Hi Skep,

I was recalling the numerous articles that Levi collaborated with Andrea Vogt for the Seattle PI. Below are a few of them. I was thinking he might be offended as well. Did he have to run the piece about KIRO and 48 Hours? The Seattle Times hasn't reported anything mentioning it as of now.

Candace Dempsey has traveled to Perugia and reported back "her" story. But there is a big difference between Candace and Andrea Vogt; Candace uses Google and Frank for her Italian, so yes, Candace shouldn't be offended.

Where's the loyalty Levi? That's all. That comment by Peter Van Sant just got me riled up! Thanks for setting the record straight!



SEATTLE PI February 12, 2009

SEATTLE PI January 16, 2009

SEATTLE PI Janurary 12, 2009


EDIT: One last thought about this. The Seattle Times relies heavily on Associated Press articles for it's news. Peter Van Sant tossed an insult to their reporter covering this case. I don't know what to think about that except that I don't think it's right. Sorry, but the 48 Hours 'Van Sant" show is a tabloid of misinformation in this case!


Last edited by Tara on Sat Apr 11, 2009 4:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline petafly


Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:08 pm

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Location: Switzerland/Germany

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 4:04 pm   Post subject:    

Wheeeew, Stew, you stressed me! :lol:

I'd say the luminol footprints are definitively part of this case: http://tinyurl.com/cedan9 They wouldn't be "luminol"-footprints if they weren't cleaned away beforehand. Logic doesn't count in this Adam-Ries system, right?
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2310

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 4:09 pm   Post subject:    

Hi Stewart,

The following tells me there was most definitely a clean up at the cottage and at Sollecito's apartment.

1. The trail of bloody footprints leading from Meredith's bedroom to the blue bathmat in the bathroom had been cleaned away. This is unequivocal evidence that there was a clean up.

2. Two sets of different sized blood footprints, which match Knox's and Sollecito's foot sizes, were revealed by luminol.

3. There were bloody footprints made visible with luminol in Filomena’s room which contained Meredith’s DNA.

4. It is indisputable that there was an extensive and thorough clean up Amanda Knox's room because there wasn't a single one of her fingerprints in it.

5. There was only one of Amanda Knox's fingerprints in the entire cottage. Somebody must have deliberately wiped all the smooth surfaces - doors, door handles, light switches, tables, desk, television, fridge, oven, windows, window sills, mirrors etc. - to make sure that there was no physical trace of her in the cottage. I'd like to point out that Amanda Knox had annoyed the other housemated because of her general uncleaniness and reluctance to her her share of the hosuehold chores.

6. A woman's bloody shoe print, which matched Amanda Knox's foot size, was found on a pillow under Meredith's body. There would have been a trail of this woman's bloody footprints in Meredith's room. Somebody deliberatley cleaned away her trail of bloody footprints from the room.

7. Guede lawyers stated at his fast-track trial that some of Meredith's blood had been mixed with water, which was further evidence that there was a clean up in Meredith's room

8. The eyewitness testimony of Marco Quintavalle supports the theory that Knox bought cleaning products which were used to clean the knife and the cottage. A receipt for cleaning products bought from Marco Quintavalle's shop was found at Sollecito's
apartment.

9. The fact that Knox and Sollecito admitted that the bucket and mop were taken from the cottage to Sollecito's apartment to clean up an alleged kitchen leak that coincidentally happened on the day Meredith was murdered strongly indicates that the bucket and mop were used in the clean up and were then were cleaned at Sollecito's apartment.

10. The testimony of the police officer who reported that Sollecito's kitchen smelt strongly of bleach clearly indicates that the double DNA knife, and bucket and mop were all cleaned with bleach at Sollecito's apartment.

11. According to Patrizia Stefanoni and Renato Biondo, Meredith's DNA was caught in a groove on the blade of the double DNA knife. It's quite clear that this knife been used to stab Meredith and been cleaned to remove all traces of Meredith's blood.

Kermit's excellent powerpoint presentations make it patently clear that there were three people at the crime scene on the night of Meredith's murder. Somebody or some people cleaned away what must have been numerous bloody footprints at the crime scene. These numerous bloody footprints did not magically disappear. If it hadn't been for luminol, we would have never known these bloody footprints existed.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 4:27 pm   Post subject:    

Tara wrote:

Quote:
I was recalling the numerous articles that Levi collaborated with Andrea Vogt for the Seattle PI. Below are a few of them. I was thinking he might be offended as well. Did he have to run the piece about KIRO and 48 Hours? The Seattle Times hasn't reported anything mentioning it as of now.


I understand that. But he is a staff reporter and not a stringer based in Italy. Van Sant is specifically targeting Andrea Vogt in my opinion. And no one would mistake Candace's blogging for news.

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Offline stewarthome2000


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Location: Perugia, Italy

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 5:01 pm   Post subject: Got it!   

petafly wrote:
Wheeeew, Stew, you stressed me! :lol:

I'd say the luminol footprints are definitively part of this case: http://tinyurl.com/cedan9 They wouldn't be "luminol"-footprints if they weren't cleaned away beforehand. Logic doesn't count in this Adam-Ries system, right?


Good point! Guess what? I got it!...ask and ye shall receive.
I just received and email from a friend in PG confirming that the "pulizia" has not yet been discussed in court, but will be mentioned in a few weeks and cited the prosecution document claims there was significan cleaning. Specifically, Mignini writes (translating) based on a report by Michele and squadra mobile:

"there are logical arguments that support cleaning activities, in particular the fact that Knox's fingerprints were found in only one location in the entire house (except for her prints on a glass in the kitchen) as if she never lived there. It seems that the person or persons took a shower in an effort to remove obvious evidence of violence from themselves and elsewhere. A number of prints have been cleaned well enough to be unidentifiable, but poorly enough to still see that they exist. It not outside the reasonable assumption, that this is a sign of those wishing to remove evidence of their presence from the environment."

There is not a loyt written yet, but I assume the experts will be called in as well. There you have it from the prosecutor himself. No evidence or mention of bleach though, and the buckt and mop were did not show blood.
Now we just have to see what the defense has to say. My chart is building.
Ciao!
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Offline Jools


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

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Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 5:07 pm   Post subject:    

Hi Stewart,

Hee is something from Judge Micheli's reposrt about the 'pulizia' and I'm sure is more on that report about the clean-up, have to go out now but will look later for it.

***Vi sono poi argomenti logici a sostegno di un’attività di pulizia, vista la mancanza di
asi impronta digitale della KNOX in tutta la casa, come se non vi abitasse (a parte
una, in un bicchiere rinvenuto in cucina) e malgrado l’imputata abbia rappresentato di
essere andata in giro per le stanze quella stessa mattina, facendosi la doccia a dispetto
dei segni di fatti di violenza che avrebbe dovuto notare. Né il rilievo è controbilanciato
dalla constatazione che si rinvennero 14 impronte riferibili a soggetti non identificati, come
se in altre parole l’ipotetico pulitore avrebbe pulito ben poco; ciò in quanto le impronte in
questione, concernenti la stanza della KERCHER, si riducono a quella sul cuscino (poi
attribuita al GUEDE), a due su una busta di plastica posta a copertura di un calendario
cinese (del tutto irrilevanti e certamente fuori dalle normali percezioni di un soggetto interessato a rimuovere i segni della propria presenza da un ambiente) e una in prossimità dello stipite della porta (probabilmente ivi lasciabuttarla giù, la mattina successiva all’omicidio).***
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 5:12 pm   Post subject:    

Oops!

Stewart, questa volta tu hai stato piu veloce. :lol:
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Offline Jools


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Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 5:31 pm   Post subject:    

Stewart, more from Micheli's report. (page 71)

***Ciò che conferma l’ipotesi che i due imputati, scappati di corsa dalla casa dopo
l’omicidio, perché costretti a farlo a causa dell’urlo di MEREDITH, rimasero in zona - o vi
tornarono dopo un tempo sufficiente per cancellare eventuali tracce evidenti sulle loro
persone - per verificare se le forze di polizia arrivassero o meno, in ipotesi allertate da chi aveva sentito il grido: verifica strumentale a capire se fosse loro possibile tornare in quella aveva sentito il grido: verifica strumentale a capire se fosse loro possibile tornare in quella aveva sentito il grido: verifica strumentale a capire se fosse loro possibile tornare in quella casa, per dare corso all'alterazione sicuramente da loro effettuata.***
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Offline stewarthome2000


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Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:47 am

Posts: 152

Location: Perugia, Italy

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 5:57 pm   Post subject: getting there....   

Ciao M,
Thanks for the list. I am using it in mine as well. I disagree with some items.
It is however discussions like this that help us all get to the bottom of things. I commented on each item.


1. The trail of bloody footprints leading from Meredith's bedroom to the blue bathmat in the bathroom had been cleaned away. This is unequivocal evidence that there was a clean up.
I understood there were a number of quite visible "tracce" in and out of the room and the bathroom found. They did not clean that well.



2. Two sets of different sized blood footprints, which match Knox's and Sollecito's foot sizes, were revealed by luminol.
Yes.. the luminolo revealed many footprints... some very old and the one "sollectito's size" was not tested for blood. They also found footprint traces of the owner of the house with luminol and many inidentifiable. Luminol reacts with many substances and is not conclusive for blood. There were also visible prints.



3. There were bloody footprints made visible with luminol in Filomena’s room which contained Meredith’s DNA.
Yes, this is true. They are not sure whose they are, but most likely left when the person staged the break in.
But there are tracce but they are inconclusive as to whom they belong.




4. It is indisputable that there was an extensive and thorough clean up Amanda Knox's room because there wasn't a single one of her fingerprints in it.
That is true.



5. There was only one of Amanda Knox's fingerprints in the entire cottage. Somebody must have deliberately wiped all the smooth surfaces - doors, door handles, light switches, tables, desk, television, fridge, oven, windows, window sills, mirrors etc. - to make sure that there was no physical trace of her in the cottage. I'd like to point out that Amanda Knox had annoyed the other housemated because of her general uncleaniness and reluctance to her her share of the hosuehold chores.
That is true.



6. A woman's bloody shoe print, which matched Amanda Knox's foot size, was found on a pillow under Meredith's body. There would have been a trail of this woman's bloody footprints in Meredith's room. Somebody deliberatley cleaned away her trail of bloody footprints from the room.
That is NOT confirmed at all. In fact, the Mignini report most likely attributes that print to Guede distorted by compression if it is in fact a print. It's in his report



7. Guede lawyers stated at his fast-track trial that some of Meredith's blood had been mixed with water, which was further evidence that there was a clean up in Meredith's room.
I did not hear that... I will check on it.



8. The eyewitness testimony of Marco Quintavalle supports the theory that Knox bought cleaning products which were used to clean the knife and the cottage. A receipt for cleaning products bought from Marco Quintavalle's shop was found at Sollecito's
apartment.
That is NOT true. No such receipts were found or are known to exist. The police have the all the till receipts from the store and have not revealed anything



9. The fact that Knox and Sollecito admitted that the bucket and mop were taken from the cottage to Sollecito's apartment to clean up an alleged kitchen leak that coincidentally happened on the day Meredith was murdered strongly indicates that the bucket and mop were used in the clean up and were then were cleaned at Sollecito's apartment.
That is not true. No evidence of "blood" cleanup or "bleach" was found on the mop or bucket.



10. The testimony of the police officer who reported that Sollecito's kitchen smelt strongly of bleach clearly indicates that the double DNA knife, and bucket and mop were all cleaned with bleach at Sollecito's apartment.
"He did say that, yes." Others said they did not smell anything, including his maid.



11. According to Patrizia Stefanoni and Renato Biondo, Meredith's DNA was caught in a groove on the blade of the double DNA knife. It's quite clear that this knife been used to stab Meredith and been cleaned to remove all traces of Meredith's blood.
That is not true. The knife was NEGATIVE for human blood tested twice, confirmed even by Stefanoni. But there may be another explaination. This will be a big dispute.



12. Kermit's excellent powerpoint presentations make it patently clear that there were three people at the crime scene on the night of Meredith's murder. Somebody or some people cleaned away what must have been numerous bloody footprints at the crime scene. These numerous bloody footprints did not magically disappear. If it hadn't been for luminol, we would have never known these bloody footprints existed.[/quote]

With all due respect to Kermit, and Kermit I really mean that. It good for assumptions, but no for conclusive evidence. Its impressive, but we need to see what is presented in court.


M, yes indeed there are some convincing items, other not so. Let's keep the things we know are true and get rid of the rest, at least kill #6, #8, #9, an wait and see on #11 and #12. Luminol has more limits than uses, and we have yet to hear the court evidence. I am glad thee things are being brought up, it is helping clear things up a bit. I was pleased to get the Mignini quote on the cleaning.

Ciao!
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Offline stewarthome2000


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Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:47 am

Posts: 152

Location: Perugia, Italy

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:21 pm   Post subject: cool jools..   

Jools wrote:
Stewart, more from Micheli's report. (page 71)...


Yeah man... I am in agreement that the crime scene was altered and cleaned as well, at least somewhat. I was looking for some evidence that pointed toward AK and RS doing the cleaning...blood evidence in the bucket, bloody stracci, blood evidence at RS's etc. It seems to me enough that the scene was cleaned seeing what will be presented... I mean link it all together with AK having been there earlier that morning and them being caught there, the late call to 112, etc. It's really hard to think they were not part of the clean up. That is now worth more points than before. I dont like using Micheli's report. So much of it was speculation and I understand its not part of the evidence presented anyway. So we have to use it with caution and with what we see in court. I dunno about anyone else, but to me things are much clearer. Thanks all.
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2310

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 7:37 pm   Post subject:    

Barbie Nadeau wrote the following in Newsweek:

"The prosecution had also introduced evidence about the washing machine in the villa where the murder took place. Filomena Romanelli, the Italian from whom Knox and Kercher sublet rooms in the villa, testified that the washing machine was warm when she arrived on the scene. She later identified the contents of the washing machine as Kercher's even though the Briton had been dead for at least 10 hours before her body was found, implying that someone else started the laundry".

This evidence raises some pertinent questions:

Who put Meredith's clothes into the washing machine? It couldn't have been Meredith because she had been dead for at least 10 hours. The only other person it could have been was Amanda Knox and I thought she claimed that she had never used the washing machine at the cottage.

Where were Meredith's clothes before they were put into the washing machine? I'm assuming that the clothes must have been in Meredith's room before they were put it into the washing machine unless the housemates had a communal basket for dirty clothes.

Did the housemates wash their clothes in the same wash?

Has Amanda Knox mentioned in any of her writings that she had put Meredith's clothes into the washing machine with her own clothes?
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Offline petafly


Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:08 pm

Posts: 278

Location: Switzerland/Germany

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 8:11 pm   Post subject:    

Hi TM,
I'm sure AK and RF had a strict division of labor in the cleanup phase. He surely did the tough job in Mez room, bathroom and the corridor, she did the rest (possibly without definition). And, hell, she overdid it big time, almost compulsive (think of all the missing fingerprints). Perhaps she started the washing machine after nothing was left to wipe for her. After all it's part of every good housework, isn't it. For sure not every action was purposive-rational action that morning.

I'd like to know more about the condition of the clothes (did they suffer from a hefty wash or not etc).
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Offline disinterested


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Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:34 pm

Posts: 236

Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 9:34 pm   Post subject: washing machine   

petafly wrote:
Hi TM....For sure not every action was purposive-rational action that morning.



As far as the washing machine, as well as anything else that appears to be part of the cover up, we have to assume that Amanda/RS/whoever did NOT expect to be interrupted when they were by the arrival of the phone police. They were rushed and probably thinking pretty chaotically. The most reliable statement I've read says the washer held a combination of Amanda's and Meredith's clothing, plus towels. We can't know what the deceivers were hoping to suggest by the contents of the washer, if they expected it to be found later (as they were "planning"). The wash idea may have had nothing to do with cleaning out blood, but rather in misleading, making a statement about some fictitious timeline they had in mind, anything that was entering their heads as they were attempting to disguise the real situation.

I will always wonder if AK & RS (if, as it seems, they did this) ever had any time afterward to discuss it. In all those images we've seen or heard of their joking, shopping, comforting and kissing together before arrest, I look and wonder if by then they'd shut down into joint denial and individual isolation, unable to ever again discuss what they'd done.

About Van Sant dragging in all that old stuff--the Italian in-fighting, Preston and Spezi and Mignini, Monster of Florence--to recycle and further obfuscate and sensationalize and sidetrack this case and draw attention to himself (a righteous American journalist fighting for our innocent American daughter held hostage abroad), it's pretty sickening, because uninformed people will lap it up and be swayed. But, it doesn't matter, only the trial matters. (Though I must admit I've wished Mignini weren't a prosecutor involved in this murder, because it therefore got linked to all the conspiracy/cult theorizing from the past murder, which is an Italian obsession--muddying these waters even more.) But hopefully everything they have will form enough of an unquestionable pattern that the true picture will emerge.

Didi

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Offline stewarthome2000


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:30 pm   Post subject: Update..on cleaning   

petafly wrote:
Hi TM,
I'm sure AK and RF had a strict division of labor in the cleanup phase.....


OK, this may explain some of the odd footprints here and there which even the defense are not disputing as Knox's print with Meredith blood. Naturally they are there, because she took a shower in the cottage and dragged her wet feet through the dried blood – there is no dispute over that. With regards to intermittent footprints, here is the explanation for what’s it worth.

On December 17th, AK was interrogated by Mignini with attorney Ghirga and interpreters present. This was one of the preliminary interrogations to decide if things were going to move forward or not. In the interrogation, the transcript shows that AK stated basically:

1. She went into her room took off her clothes and earrings, and walked into the bathroom to take a shower. She noticed the blood in the bathroom. She showered but she forgot to bring in a towel.
2. Not wanting to slip on the floor, she placed her feet on the bathroom mat and dragged it across the floor from the bathroom to her room using a walking motion to move the mat.
3. She then grabbed the towel in her room, while dripping wet, and returned to the bathroom once again dragging the mat with her feet.
4. She dried off most of the water while in the bathroom and then returned to her room barefooted to dry off the rest of the way and get dressed. She may have then used the mat with her foot to pick up any excess water she left in the bathroom and hallway.
5. It was when she returned to the bathroom that she saw clearly that the mat had blood on it as it was dragged along the floor from the bathroom to her room. Unknowingly wiping and picking up dried blood with the wet mat.
6. Alle fine, she said she did not use the washing machine, she put her dirty clothes in her room where she always does until she is ready to do a load in the machine.

Hence, the reason the bloody foot and other footprints do not go everywhere and are intermittent. Note: she was not asked about the foot prints. She was just asked minute per minute what she did that morning when she got to the cottage. Anyway, that the story right from Knox's mouth. You can be the judge.
It may also explain why the prosecution is not making a bid deal of the missing footprints...this explains some of them. Nevertheless, its a convenient story. Perhaps too convenient.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:48 pm   Post subject:    

SH 2000 wrote:

Quote:
OK, this may explain some of the odd footprints here and there which even the defense are not disputing as Knox's print with Meredith blood. Naturally they are there, because she took a shower in the cottage and dragged her wet feet through the dried blood – there is no dispute over that. With regards to intermittent footprints, here is the explanation for what’s it worth.

On December 17th, AK was interrogated by Mignini with attorney Ghirga and interpreters present. This was one of the preliminary interrogations to decide if things were going to move forward or not. In the interrogation, the transcript shows that AK stated basically:

[.....]

Hence, the reason the bloody foot and other footprints do not go everywhere and are intermittent. Note: she was not asked about the foot prints. She was just asked minute per minute what she did that morning when she got to the cottage. Anyway, that the story right from Knox's mouth. You can be the judge.
It may also explain why the prosecution is not making a bid deal of the missing footprints...this explains some of them. Nevertheless, its a convenient story. Perhaps too convenient.


I'm one of those people who think that this story is just a little too convenient. It is one of those either you believe it or you don't, because there are no witnesses (that we know of). For that matter, there are no witnesses who can say that AK took a shower when she said she did.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 11:01 pm   Post subject:    

SH2000: do you happen to have a transcript (in Italian or translated into English) of Sollecito's first call to 112?

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Offline stewarthome2000


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 11:20 pm   Post subject: 112 calls   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
SH2000: do you happen to have a transcript (in Italian or translated into English) of Sollecito's first call to 112?


Updated with link...
The first call I understood he spoke one sentance and was put on hold.
http://lanazione.ilsole24ore.com/perugi ... casa.shtml
''Buongiorno - dice il ragazzo al telefono alle 12.51 - qualcuno e' entrato in casa sfondando la finestra. C'è la porta chiusa. Siamo in via della Pergola 7. Ci sono delle macchie di sangue in bagno". He was then supposedly immediately put on hold and waited for some time. Either he hung up or he line fell. I was not sure, but I think he said the line fell after a long wait. I have to check again.

Here is he second you probably already have: http://it.truveo.com/La-telefonata-di-S ... 5446541789
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Offline Jumpy


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 12:02 am   Post subject:    

Considering the amount of lies that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito have continued to make, I won't take into account anything that they say for truth. That also includes the stories that their families have made up for them, ie bleeding ears, borrowing bras, and being tortured.

Those luminol footprints are there for a reason. They were walking around in Meredith's blood in the process of cleaning and staging the cottage. Meredith didn't cover herself up with a duvet. Meredith didn't cut off her own bra. More than one person spent many hours covering up their involvement of the murder of Meredith Kercher. I don't believe that they were finished when the Postal Police arrived.
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 12:15 am   Post subject: Re: Update..on cleaning   

stewarthome2000 wrote:
petafly wrote:
Hi TM,
I'm sure AK and RF had a strict division of labor in the cleanup phase.....


OK, this may explain some of the odd footprints here and there which even the defense are not disputing as Knox's print with Meredith blood. Naturally they are there, because she took a shower in the cottage and dragged her wet feet through the dried blood – there is no dispute over that. With regards to intermittent footprints, here is the explanation for what’s it worth.

On December 17th, AK was interrogated by Mignini with attorney Ghirga and interpreters present. This was one of the preliminary interrogations to decide if things were going to move forward or not. In the interrogation, the transcript shows that AK stated basically:

1. She went into her room took off her clothes and earrings, and walked into the bathroom to take a shower. She noticed the blood in the bathroom. She showered but she forgot to bring in a towel.
2. Not wanting to slip on the floor, she placed her feet on the bathroom mat and dragged it across the floor from the bathroom to her room using a walking motion to move the mat.
3. She then grabbed the towel in her room, while dripping wet, and returned to the bathroom once again dragging the mat with her feet.
4. She dried off most of the water while in the bathroom and then returned to her room barefooted to dry off the rest of the way and get dressed. She may have then used the mat with her foot to pick up any excess water she left in the bathroom and hallway.
5. It was when she returned to the bathroom that she saw clearly that the mat had blood on it as it was dragged along the floor from the bathroom to her room. Unknowingly wiping and picking up dried blood with the wet mat.
6. Alle fine, she said she did not use the washing machine, she put her dirty clothes in her room where she always does until she is ready to do a load in the machine.

Hence, the reason the bloody foot and other footprints do not go everywhere and are intermittent. Note: she was not asked about the foot prints. She was just asked minute per minute what she did that morning when she got to the cottage. Anyway, that the story right from Knox's mouth. You can be the judge.
It may also explain why the prosecution is not making a bid deal of the missing footprints...this explains some of them. Nevertheless, its a convenient story. Perhaps too convenient.


If I get it right, you're saying-or better Knox is- that she dragged the mat once to the bedroom, then back to the bathroom- and then went back to bedroom barefoot leaving the mat in the bathroom. Then she went back to the bathroom -was she wearing her shoes at this point?-and finally she sees the blood. Well, unless her eyesight is seriously impaired, this is the most fantastic story I've ever heard. Of course it doesn't mean she has murdered Meredith etc etc, but it 's another very "peculiar finding" coupled to another another ready "convenient explanation" - Wonder how many "fortuitous coincidences" the jury will be willing to believe before they feel they're being "presi per il culo" by the two honor students.
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 12:21 am   Post subject: Re: Update..on cleaning   

stewarthome2000 wrote:

OK, this may explain some of the odd footprints here and there which even the defense are not disputing as Knox's print with Meredith blood. Naturally they are there, because she took a shower in the cottage and dragged her wet feet through the dried blood – there is no dispute over that. With regards to intermittent footprints, here is the explanation for what’s it worth. .


I don't believe the bathmat shuffle story. It's as comical as Knox's story about her memory of what happened on the night of the murder coming back to her after she was visited by the nun or her yarn about the cannabis-induced amnesia.

I already have a couple of questions:

Why did she have a shower in a blood-spattered bathroom, which had a very visible large bloody footprint on the blue bathmat?

Why didn't she notice the trail of bloody footprints leading up to the blue bathmat?

stewarthome2000 wrote:
1. She went into her room took off her clothes and earrings, and walked into the bathroom to take a shower. She noticed the blood in the bathroom. She showered but she forgot to bring in a towel.


Why did she go to her cottage to have a shower when she could have had one at Sollecito's apartment?

stewarthome2000 wrote:
2. Not wanting to slip on the floor, she placed her feet on the bathroom mat and dragged it across the floor from the bathroom to her room using a walking motion to move the mat.


She stepped onto the blue bathmat even though it was covered in blood?

stewarthome2000 wrote:
6. Alle fine, she said she did not use the washing machine, she put her dirty clothes in her room where she always does until she is ready to do a load in the machine.


So, who put her clothes into the washing machine?

stewarthome2000 wrote:
Hence, the reason the bloody foot and other footprints do not go everywhere and are intermittent.


Not so fast Stew!! Knox didn't do the bathmat shuffle in Meredith's room because it was locked and she didn't do the bathmat shuffle in Filomena's room. Where are the trail of bloody footprints leading out of Meredith's room? Why were there bloody footprints in Filomena's room and who cleaned them away?

stewarthome2000 wrote:
Note: she was not asked about the foot prints. She was just asked minute per minute what she did that morning when she got to the cottage. Anyway, that the story right from Knox's mouth. You can be the judge.


She was not asked about them, but she knew about them because she and Sollecito had cleaned them away. The postal police turned up unexpectedly. They didn't have time to take her lamp from Meredith's room and return it to her own room and I expect the pesky bloody footprint on the blue bathmat wasn't very easy to get rid off.

stewarthome2000 wrote:
It may also explain why the prosecution is not making a bid deal of the missing footprints...this explains some of them. Nevertheless, its a convenient story. Perhaps too convenient.


The prosecution haven't presented the forensic evidence yet. We don't know whether they are making a big deal out of the footprints or not.
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 12:35 am   Post subject:    

Jumpy wrote:
Considering the amount of lies that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito have continued to make, I won't take into account anything that they say for truth. That also includes the stories that their families have made up for them, ie bleeding ears, borrowing bras, and being tortured.

Those luminol footprints are there for a reason. They were walking around in Meredith's blood in the process of cleaning and staging the cottage. Meredith didn't cover herself up with a duvet. Meredith didn't cut off her own bra. More than one person spent many hours covering up their involvement of the murder of Meredith Kercher. I don't believe that they were finished when the Postal Police arrived.


Excellent post Jumpy. It's that simple. The testimony of two compulsive liars like Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito should not be taken seriously.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 12:46 am   Post subject:    

TM wrote:

Quote:
She stepped onto the blue bathmat even though it was covered in blood?

stewarthome2000 wrote:
6. Alle fine, she said she did not use the washing machine, she put her dirty clothes in her room where she always does until she is ready to do a load in the machine.


So, who put her clothes into the washing machine?


Remember, according to Frank, who "interviewed" AK recently, she never used the machine because it was always broken.

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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 12:49 am   Post subject: Re: Update..on cleaning   

The Machine wrote:
stewarthome2000 wrote:

OK, this may explain some of the odd footprints here and there which even the defense are not disputing as Knox's print with Meredith blood. Naturally they are there, because she took a shower in the cottage and dragged her wet feet through the dried blood – there is no dispute over that. With regards to intermittent footprints, here is the explanation for what’s it worth. .


I don't believe the bathmat shuffle story. It's as comical as Knox's story about her memory of what happened on the night of the murder coming back to her after she was visited by the nun or her yarn about the cannabis-induced amnesia.

I already have a couple of questions:

Why did she have a shower in a blood-spattered bathroom, which had a very visible large bloody footprint on the blue bathmat?

Why didn't she notice the trail of bloody footprints leading up to the blue bathmat?

stewarthome2000 wrote:
1. She went into her room took off her clothes and earrings, and walked into the bathroom to take a shower. She noticed the blood in the bathroom. She showered but she forgot to bring in a towel.


Why did she go to her cottage to have a shower when she could have had one at Sollecito's apartment?

stewarthome2000 wrote:
2. Not wanting to slip on the floor, she placed her feet on the bathroom mat and dragged it across the floor from the bathroom to her room using a walking motion to move the mat.


She stepped onto the blue bathmat even though it was covered in blood?

stewarthome2000 wrote:
6. Alle fine, she said she did not use the washing machine, she put her dirty clothes in her room where she always does until she is ready to do a load in the machine.


So, who put her clothes into the washing machine?

stewarthome2000 wrote:
Hence, the reason the bloody foot and other footprints do not go everywhere and are intermittent.


Not so fast Stew!! Knox didn't do the bathmat shuffle in Meredith's room because it was locked and she didn't do the bathmat shuffle in Filomena's room. Where are the trail of bloody footprints leading out of Meredith's room? Why were there bloody footprints in Filomena's room and who cleaned them away?

stewarthome2000 wrote:
Note: she was not asked about the foot prints. She was just asked minute per minute what she did that morning when she got to the cottage. Anyway, that the story right from Knox's mouth. You can be the judge.


She was not asked about them, but she knew about them because she and Sollecito had cleaned them away. The postal police turned up unexpectedly. They didn't have time to take her lamp from Meredith's room and return it to her own room and I expect the pesky bloody footprint on the blue bathmat wasn't very easy to get rid off.

stewarthome2000 wrote:
It may also explain why the prosecution is not making a bid deal of the missing footprints...this explains some of them. Nevertheless, its a convenient story. Perhaps too convenient.


The prosecution haven't presented the forensic evidence yet. We don't know whether they are making a big deal out of the footprints or not.

TM,
I think the point is, nobody would ever take a shower in a bloodied bathroom. without first cleaning with a disinfectant agent. Not touching foreign haematic fluid with bare skin is basic hygene, even more true for people that bleach cutlery for "hygenic" reasons :lol: The door ajar, significant traces of blood in the bathroom...anybody possessing the slighest spark of intellingence woul run out of the place as fast as they could. The pierced earings and menstrual blood explanation is as comical as they come. Ears infected from piercing produce microscopic blood particles, embedded in essudate and pus. I don't want to get into graphics, but menstrual blood just doesn't "flood" down to the floor in an open faucet manner. What can happen is to drop a few small spots- surely not enough to produce the smears we have seen in the pictures.
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 12:55 am   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
TM wrote:

Quote:
She stepped onto the blue bathmat even though it was covered in blood?

stewarthome2000 wrote:
6. Alle fine, she said she did not use the washing machine, she put her dirty clothes in her room where she always does until she is ready to do a load in the machine.


So, who put her clothes into the washing machine?


Remember, according to Frank, who "interviewed" AK recently, she never used the machine because it was always broken.

So I guess Meredith went to Amanda room, took her dirty clothes, and started the laundry for both of them either before going out to dinner or when she got back, just before she was killed. Did Amanda know that Meredith was taking care of her laundry? Or perhaps Meredith's kindness is just another one of those "coincidences".
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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 1:14 am   Post subject: Re: 112 calls   

stewarthome2000 wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
SH2000: do you happen to have a transcript (in Italian or translated into English) of Sollecito's first call to 112?


Updated with link...
The first call I understood he spoke one sentance and was put on hold.
La Nazione link
''Buongiorno - dice il ragazzo al telefono alle 12.51 - qualcuno e' entrato in casa sfondando la finestra. C'è la porta chiusa. Siamo in via della Pergola 7. Ci sono delle macchie di sangue in bagno".


Literally, "Good day," says the lad on the phone at 12:51, "someone has gotten into the house [by] breaking the window. There's the closed door [i.e., meaning to say, in hindsight, "chiusa a chiave" = "locked"]. We're at 7, via della Pergola. There are blood stains in the bathroom." (Is the newspaper report accurate via a vis what was played in court? The newspaper sub-editing process too many times has interfered with the sense of things by blindly moving phrases around and compressing them without regard to context.)

In the second call, Raffaele couldn't remember the address. He had to be prompted by a nearby woman's voice (presumably Amanda's): "via della Pergola", she said; which he repeated.

Sincerely, he must have been really confused. Admittedly, he does sound a bit exhausted or tired in the second phone call (like a normal student, really).
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 1:16 am   Post subject:    

Among the things I find hard to comprehend is why some people are still arguing that Sollecito called 112 BEFORE the postal police arrived when he himself said (English translation from Corriere, dated Nov 2007):

Quote:
Then I decided to call my sister for advice because she’s a lieutenant in the carabinieri. She told me to call 112 but by this time the postal police had arrived.


Sollecito's call to his sister was at 12:50. His father called him at 12:40. Even if the postal police arrived later than the CCTV image and their own records suggest, one direct witness has corroborated an important fact: that the calls to 112 came after their arrival.

What remains to be seen is whether or not the call to his sister also came after their arrival. I think it probably did. Luca and Marco arrived at about 12:45. The postal police were already there.

In Knox's email of 4 Nov, she says that she thought the postal police were the "real police", responding to Sollecito's call. But Sollecito says he didn't have time to make the call.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 1:19 am   Post subject:    

Catnip wrote:

Quote:
stewarthome2000 wrote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
SH2000: do you happen to have a transcript (in Italian or translated into English) of Sollecito's first call to 112?


Updated with link...
The first call I understood he spoke one sentance and was put on hold.
La Nazione link
''Buongiorno - dice il ragazzo al telefono alle 12.51 - qualcuno e' entrato in casa sfondando la finestra. C'è la porta chiusa. Siamo in via della Pergola 7. Ci sono delle macchie di sangue in bagno".


Literally, "Good day," says the lad on the phone at 12:51, "someone has gotten into the house [by] breaking the window. There's the closed door [i.e., meaning to say, in hindsight, "chiusa a chiave" = "locked"]. We're at 7, via della Pergola. There are blood stains in the bathroom." (Is the newspaper report accurate via a vis what was played in court? The newspaper sub-editing process too many times has interfered with the sense of things by blindly moving phrases around and compressing them without regard to context.)

In the second call, Raffaele couldn't remember the address. He had to be prompted by a nearby woman's voice (presumably Amanda's): "via della Pergola", she said; which he repeated.

Sincerely, he must have been really confused. Admittedly, he does sound a bit exhausted or tired in the second phone call (like a normal student, really).


Thanks, Catnip! Is there any way of knowing if he waited on hold for a long time prior to this brief conversation and whether the call was cut off? It lasted 116 seconds, which is a long time in which to fit this very brief conversation.

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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 1:22 am   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Among the things I find hard to comprehend is why some people are still arguing that Sollecito called 112 BEFORE the postal police arrived when he himself said (English translation from Corriere, dated Nov 2007):


Quote:
Then I decided to call my sister for advice because she’s a lieutenant in the carabinieri. She told me to call 112 but by this time the postal police had arrived.


I've lost count of the number of times I've made this point and quoted Raffale Sollecito's words verbatim from his witness statement that appeared in The Times on 7 November, 2007. Candace Dempsey, funnycat, Ferdi et al never wanted to discuss this particular point.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 1:32 am   Post subject:    

Was Filomena's door open or closed on the morning of 2 November?

According to Sollecito on 7 November, when he and Knox returned to the cottage:


Quote:
She unlocked the door and I went in. I noticed that Filomena’s door was open.


And of course this is as it must be, for otherwise Knox would have noticed the mess inside Filomena's room.
Indeed, this is what Knox says in her 4 November e-mail:

Quote:
lauras door was open which meant she wasnt
home, and filomenas door was also closed. my door was open like always
and meredith door was closed, which to me weant she was sleeping



This may seem like a minor point, but it is not. If Filomena's door was open, Knox could not have failed to notice that the room was, as Sollecito noted, completely turned upside down. Who in the world opened Filomena's door after Knox locked the front door and went back to the cottage? And please, don't anyone tell me it was the victim.

In the Corriere article, it is also noted that Sollecito's first version of the night of 1 November was that he and Knox had been "out" together.

According to Knox, in her email:

Quote:
after a little while of playing guitar me and raffael went to his
house to watch movies and after to eat dinner and generally spend the
evening and night indoors. we didnt go out

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 1:36 am   Post subject:    

TM wrote:

Quote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Among the things I find hard to comprehend is why some people are still arguing that Sollecito called 112 BEFORE the postal police arrived when he himself said (English translation from Corriere, dated Nov 2007):


Quote:
Then I decided to call my sister for advice because she’s a lieutenant in the carabinieri. She told me to call 112 but by this time the postal police had arrived.


I've lost count of the number of times I've made this point and quoted Raffale Sollecito's words verbatim from his witness statement that appeared in The Times on 7 November, 2007. Candace Dempsey, funnycat, Ferdi et al never wanted to discuss this particular point.


And even accepting that Sollecito was stressed out, this particular detail is not one that the police would have necessarily been pressing him about at the time. It is a detail that comes forth unbidden. If the police had obtained his phone records by then and asked about the timing of the call, that would have been normal. Sollecito might have added: "And that's why my two calls to 112 came after their arrival."

And also, he expresses no confusion as to who they are.

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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 1:44 am   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
And even accepting that Sollecito was stressed out, this particular detail is not one that the police would have necessarily been pressing him about at the time. It is a detail that comes forth unbidden. If the police had obtained his phone records by then and asked about the timing of the call, that would have been normal. Sollecito might have added: "And that's why my two calls to 112 came after their arrival."

And also, he expresses no confusion as to who they are.


Sollecito didn't attribute his lies to stress but to believing what Amanda Knox had told him without thinking about the inconsistencies. Even this is a lie. He knew full well that he hadn't called 112 before the postal police turned up at the cottage.
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 2:02 am   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Was Filomena's door open or closed on the morning of 2 November?

According to Sollecito on 7 November, when he and Knox returned to the cottage:

Quote:
She unlocked the door and I went in. I noticed that Filomena’s door was open.


And of course this is as it must be, for otherwise Knox would have noticed the mess inside Filomena's room.
Indeed, this is what Knox says in her 4 November e-mail:

Quote:
lauras door was open which meant she wasnt
home, and filomenas door was also closed. my door was open like always
and meredith door was closed, which to me weant she was sleeping


This may seem like a minor point, but it is not. If Filomena's door was open, Knox could not have failed to notice that the room was, as Sollecito noted, completely turned upside down. Who in the world opened Filomena's door after Knox locked the front door and went back to the cottage? And please, don't anyone tell me it was the victim.


This is not a minor point. Everyone I've spoken to about the case in the real world thinks that Knox and Sollecito are guilty for the simple reason that they don't believe innocent people give multiple alibis and lie repeatedly. The defence's forensic experts might be able to blind the jury with science, but they won't convince them there is an innocent explanation for Knox's and Sollecito's repeated lies. Knox's and Sollecito's lawyers can't magic away their lies.

Over to you Stewart...
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Offline wvgirl


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Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:52 am

Posts: 12

Location: Almost Heaven

PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 3:38 am   Post subject:    

Ugh. I have a day and half to read and my eyes are heavy. I did watch about 2/3 of the CBS show. :roll: Once again, ugh. My daughter asked me to call her after I watched so we could discuss. She has only seen what was previosly aired on US television. So I called, ready for a debate and she said I was right, :shock: the show was so terribly one sided with the poor little american girl and the bad italians, and looking at it thru those eyes it was hard to swallow what they were portraying. Now she wants first call of my computer tomorrow after Easter lunch so she can read on here and TJMK. :D With out reading, I know this has nothing to do with current posting, but just wanted to share for some strange reason :oops: :lol:
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Offline wvgirl


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Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:52 am

Posts: 12

Location: Almost Heaven

PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 4:08 am   Post subject: Re: Loyalty   

Tara wrote:
[~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SEATTLE PI February 12, 2009

SEATTLE PI January 16, 2009

SEATTLE PI Janurary 12, 2009


EDIT: One last thought about this. The Seattle Times relies heavily on Associated Press articles for it's news. Peter Van Sant tossed an insult to their reporter covering this case. I don't know what to think about that except that I don't think it's right. Sorry, but the 48 Hours 'Van Sant" show is a tabloid of misinformation in this case!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Could not agree more, Tara
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Offline Catnip


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Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:08 am

Posts: 2997

Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 5:02 am   Post subject:    

jw wrote:

Hello Catnip,

For a potential analytic romp, check out RS's German Erasmus Year Diary which exists in the "In Their Own Words" section here onsite.

I'd be interested in any Italian speaker's comments on this document. ...


Yes, JW, I'll have a go. I take it you mean the bloggy posts, like at [PMF link].

Nicki's right: it is slangy dorm-room stuff.

Think Animal House, with the script written by Kerouac.
(Slang is the true test for a translator! It's probably all old-hat and out-moded by now.)

Overall, in these few of RS's pre-arrest writings that I've seen so far, the impression of loneliness still lingers, like when you are trying too hard to fit in and not quite succeeding. The linguistic style is not untypical adolescent: namely, pretentious twaddle (which, surprisingly, is very difficult for more mature writers to emulate).

P.S. I'm amazed that Raffaele remembered any of it, the way cannabis veils the memory, and all. ;)
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 6:00 am   Post subject:    

wvgirl wrote:

Quote:
Ugh. I have a day and half to read and my eyes are heavy. I did watch about 2/3 of the CBS show. Once again, ugh. My daughter asked me to call her after I watched so we could discuss. She has only seen what was previosly aired on US television. So I called, ready for a debate and she said I was right, the show was so terribly one sided with the poor little american girl and the bad italians, and looking at it thru those eyes it was hard to swallow what they were portraying. Now she wants first call of my computer tomorrow after Easter lunch so she can read on here and TJMK. With out reading, I know this has nothing to do with current posting, but just wanted to share for some strange reason


My first reaction is that Doug Preston doesn't think the average American or viewer is very intelligent. This was grotesque. This was tabloidesque.

_________________
Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point; on le sait en mille choses.
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Offline jw


Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 6:06 am

Posts: 177

PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 6:13 am   Post subject: Translation / Nicki and Catnip   

Catnip wrote:

Yes, JW, I'll have a go. I take it you mean the bloggy posts, like at [PMF link].

Nicki's right: it is slangy dorm-room stuff.

Think Animal House, with the script written by Kerouac.
(Slang is the true test for a translator! It's probably all old-hat and out-moded by now.)

Overall, in these few of RS's pre-arrest writings that I've seen so far, the impression of loneliness still lingers, like when you are trying too hard to fit in and not quite succeeding. The linguistic style is not untypical adolescent: namely, pretentious twaddle (which, surprisingly, is very difficult for more mature writers to emulate).

P.S. I'm amazed that Raffaele remembered any of it, the way cannabis veils the memory, and all. ;)


Ues, that is the link to RS's diary that I was interested in. Thank you, Nicki and Catnip, for looking it over and sharing your impressions. There is so little available to read about RS or his history.

Catnip, if it looks as though there is little to nothing of substance for the gleaning there, please don't spend your valuable time translating it because of my request. You've already been helpful, and your contributions are appreciated :)

Cheers
jw
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 7:08 am   Post subject:    

Skep wrote:
Quote:
"His father called him at 12:40."
and
"Luca and Marco arrived at about 12:45"


Could you give a source for these? We desperately need any reliable timing data.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 7:16 am   Post subject:    

The Machine wrote:

"The defence's forensic experts might be able to blind the jury with science, but they won't convince them there is an innocent explanation for Knox's and Sollecito's repeated lies. Knox's and Sollecito's lawyers can't magic away their lies"

The problem is that the prosecutors have not done a good job so far with the witnesses to make those lies clear to the jury.

I am especially not satisfied how the arrival time of the Postal Police was handled by the prosecution.

They are not critical enough of their own proofs and so there remain unnecessary leaks in their proofs.
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Offline petafly


Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:08 pm

Posts: 278

Location: Switzerland/Germany

PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 7:41 am   Post subject:    

OT: HAPPY EASTER everybody! :D

Heres something for your library:
http://audio.cbsnews.com/2009/04/09/audio4933356.mp3 I'd say everything is clearified, thanks to the FOA. Caso chiuso! HIp Hip Hoooray! Let's go home! ;)

PS: Boy, I feel terribly sorry for the police interviewers. They must have had hard times with her. To follow her straying thoughts aint easy...
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Offline petafly


Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:08 pm

Posts: 278

Location: Switzerland/Germany

PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 8:26 am   Post subject:    

Quote:
Boy, I feel terribly sorry for the police interviewers.

To be honest, i wouldn't be too surprised if a police officer actually hit her "in the head". Well, i would do it! If it helps her to get to the point... ;)
I'm assured now the story about she's explaining for 20 minutes and Raffaele condensing it to one halfsentence "cause she was confused" is a true story.


edit: Good heavens! I forgot a smiley.! I think this is my try to get quoted by the FOA...
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 8:58 am   Post subject:    

Quote:
petafly wrote:
"I'm assured now the story about she's explaining for 20 minutes and Raffaele condensing it to one halfsentence "cause she was confused" is a true story. "


Me too.
It was Nov 3 night. At that time they were still lying that the night of the murder they had gone to a party.
Amanda must have told a lot of rubbish to the curious flatmates and Raffaele felt it was best not to translate it to limit damage.

A more elaborate version is the Nov 4 email.
(It is interesting that the email is much like a defense speech explaining why she is not involved.)
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Offline Catnip


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Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:08 am

Posts: 2997

Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 9:03 am   Post subject:    

Here's a hindsight-and-reminiscences Easter Egg for everybody,
showing how far things have come and how much has stayed the same.

Reports from the first few days show how much the reporters were on the outside,
and what seemed innocent at the time has taken on a deeper meaning since.

I've translated ragazza as "lass", and la giovane as "the young lady".
so it may sound a bit old-fashioned in places.


The first day: Friday, 2 November 2007



Quote:

CRIME MYSTERY IN LITTLE UMBRIAN CITY
INVESTIGATORS WORKING TO SHED LIGHT ON THE CASE
BODY OF LASS DISCOVERED BY POSTAL POLICE INVESITGATING A MOBILE PHONE

PERUGIA: DEAD ENGLISH STUDENT
KILLED IN HER HOUSE BY A CUT TO THE THROAT

PERUGIA –The death of Meredith Kercher, a 22-year-old English student, found dead in a residence a few hundred metres from the historical centre of Perugia with a deep wound to the throat, is shrouded in mystery. Investigators are not ruling anything out. The prime hypothesis is that the lass was killed by someone who then fled. She was in fact in her room with the door locked. She was on the bed [actually, on the floor], covered with a doona/duvet, with her top lifted and breasts exposed, her other clothing still on.

The student had arrived in Perugia last August as part of the Erasmus exchange program and was attending Italian University. She lived in a little apartment block with a sort of garden ending in a sharp slope, with a busy road on the other side. Another two Italian university students and a United States student were living with the young lady. From preliminary police findings it appears that no-one spent the night in the house.

Agents of the Postal Police discovered the body of the foreigner around 1pm. The young lady’s mobile phone had been recovered from the backyard of a nearby house and it was actually that phone that brought the police to the apartment. That morning, in fact, at the Perugia Police Questura, someone, an old lady it seems, had reported having received a threatening phone call. Then she mentioned having found the phone in her yard.

In the little apartment block, the Postal Police found two of the foreigner’s just-returned housemates, who seemed unawares of what happened. The agents then noticed various traces of blood in the bathroom and consequently identified the body of the young lady.

The Perugia Mobile Squad, headed by Marco Chiacchera, and the forensics team from the Questura, have begun investigations. It seems that traces of blood were found on a broken window and on a handkerchief near railing the overlooking road, as well as in the victim’s room. Instead, no apparent sign of forcing was identified on the front door. In the evening, therefore, the ERT (=Crime Scene Investigations) Team from Rome arrived to further the investigations now under way.

Investigators, coordinated by deputy prosecutor Giuliano Mignini, are seeking to reconstruct the student’s last hours. It appears she was last seen alive on Thursday afternoon. It is not clear what might have occurred in the following hours or whether she met up with someone.


(2 November 2007)

[Repubblica] 02 November 2007




Saturday, 3 November 2007


Quote:

FORESNSICS SEARCHES CONTINUE IN THE COTTAGE WHERE THE LASS, 22-YEARS-OLD, WAS FOUND
PERUGIA: THE MYSTERY OF MEREDITH
"SHE KNEW HER KILLER"
MOBILE PHONES ABANDONED IN A NEARBY VILLETTA.
HER FRIENDS ARE HELPING WITH ENQUIRIES

PERUGIA – The victim’s two mobile phones are the focus of investigations by the police into the murder of Meredith Kercher, the 22-yr-old English student found dead in Perugia. Investigators are considering the hypothesis that the two mobile phones, one with an Italian SIM card and the other an English one, were thrown into the garden by the lass’s killer. Investigators are also seeking to reconstruct how Meredith spent the night: it has emerged that on Thursday the young lady had spent part of the evening at a friend’s place. Around 9pm, though, she left on her own, on foot. [actually, one of her friends accompanied her part of the way] From then on there is no news of her up until the discovery of the body. The police are also examining external security camera footage from a covered car-park adjacent to the student’s residence.

According to the pathologist’s preliminary findings, Meredith died on the night of Thursday-Friday, and before being killed might have had a sexual encounter. The young lady’s body was in fact found in her bedroom, she had on only a top and she was covered with a doona/duvet. On her body there was confirming evidence, that is, signs that could be read as indicating a scuffle or brawl. However, the autopsy will determine the time of death and clarify whether or not the student was sexually assaulted.

The Mobile Squad interviewed the three housemates well into the night. Also interviewed were the students who were living in another apartment in the same little apartment block, underneath the one where the murder happened. It seems though that no-one has supplied information relevant to the investigations.

“Meredith was friendly, happy, but quite reserved and did not have a boyfriend” - that’s how an Italian friend, Pasquale, one of the managers of the Merlin, a pub popular with foreign students in Perugia, remembers her.
“I’ve never seen her drunk. She was happy being here and liked Perugia a lot. Her cross to bear,” recalls Pasquale, “was Italian language, which she didn’t know fluently".

In Perugia, she knew another English student, Sophie, who lived not far from her place, and who became her best friend. They used to go out as a group, only the girls. “She wasn’t engaged,” said Pasquale, “and she wasn’t the type of girl who, after meeting a man, would straight away invite him home. She was very sensible, she took care with whatever she was doing".

According to the reconstruction so far, on Halloween night Meredith went with Sophie and her other friends to the Merlin. After the pub, that same night, the group moved to a disco in the city centre. The following night, the girls were still feeling a bit tired from the night before, and they settled at Sophie’s house to watch a film. Around 9pm, Meredith said good night to her friends and went directly, on foot, alone, to her house, a distance of five minutes on foot. Then after that no one knows anything, up until the body was discovered.

Investigators meanwhile are waiting on logs of calls made from and received by the victim’s phones (from which the twenty-two year old was inseparable). Making this even more complicated is the necessity of evaluating international calls as well.

Meanwhile, the police are looking for the weapon – perhaps a knife or screwdriver – used to kill the lass, and the keys for the door to the room where the young lady was found dead. The room was in fact found to have been locked with a key, and the prime hypothesis remains that the murderer killed her and then fled through the window. Traces of blood have been found on a window and on a handkerchief near a railing bordering the overlooking road, as well as in the victim’s room.

In the meantime, the caller of a threatening phone call to an old lady in whose garden the student’s two mobile phones were found, has been identified. The call was probably made as a prank, but the caller turns out to be in no way involved with the young lady’s death. After having found the two phones in her garden (a couple of hundred metres from the house where the English student lived), the old lady, who had received the phone threats, handed the phones over to the Postal Police. The agents were thus able to trace the owner and turned up at the little apartment block where the student lived, discovering the body together with her housemates.

(3 November 2007)

[ Repubblica ] 03 November 2007




Sunday, 4 November 2007


Quote:

MACARBRE JOKE AT THE UNIVERSITY – WORRYING FLYER ON THE MAIN GATE: “APPARTMENT TO RENT, PREFER ENGLISH GIRLS”
AUTOPSY: MEREDITH WAS ASSAULTED
"THERE COULD HAVE BEEN TWO OF THEM"

PERUGIA - Meredith Kercher would have been first assaulted and then killed with a blow to the throat. These are the initial findings of the post-mortem on the body of the English student, in Italy on a study program, murdered on the night of Thursday-Friday. And the investigators are not excluding the possibility that there were two persons to attack the lass and assault her.

The autopsy has therefore begun to confirm the investigators’ hypothesis. Analysis will now focus on the prints and organic material collected from the murder scene, together with the data-footprints of the two mobile phones. According to the investigators, the young lady knew the murderer. Enough to allow them inside. …

The autopsy Meredith struggled with the murderer – or murderers – who forced her to have sexual intercourse. This is one of the results of the seven-hour autopsy, at the end of which pathologist Luca Lalli said that “significant facts” had emerged about which it would be useful to have a “meeting” with the [investigating] magistrate and the [police] investigators. So, straight afterwards, Lalli, prosecutor Giuliano Mignini who is heading up the investigations, and the investigators returned to the murder cottage. A visit that makes you think there was a breakthrough, especially as with them there was a young woman, apparently one of the victim’s friends. In the evening though, Chief Arturo De Felice said that “technical time” is needed to obtain and cross-tabulate the findings of various lines of enquiry still under way, to then compare against the autopsy results, which would be available, as is the usual practice, within 60 days.

{The flyer at the University seized: “room for rent”}
{The Mayor of Perugia’s statement: “everything is being done”}
{Sandra Jennings (Meredith’s aunt)’s blog: ‘she didn’t deserve what happened to her’]


(4 November 2007)

[ Repubblica ] 04 November 2007



Monday, 5 November 2007



Quote:

MANY QUESTIONS REMAIN, FROM THE ATTEMPTED SELF-DEFENCE TO THE HYPOTHESIS THAT MORE THAN ONE PERSON ATTACKED HER

PERUGIA - ...

{more detail on the medical/pathology results; then}

Investigations have continued for three days without a result and have focussed on a restricted group of people. During the night, searches were conducted in the cottage where the lass lived with her housemates. Traces of blood were found on the inside handle of the front door, and also other biological traces, which are now being analysed and compared.

Yesterday various people were interviewed who might have been able to furnish details allowing the resolution of the case. Included amongst these were those who live in the other apartments of the Via Sant’Antonio house: it seems that four Marchese university students were interviewed for hours, even if official sources are being tight-lipped. The American student who shared the lodging with Meredith returned to the murder house last night with investigators after the pathologist handed in a first report to the investigating magistrate. Checks are also being done on the landlady and on who had responsibility for the keys to the apartments.

...
(5 November 2007)

[ Repubblica ] 05 November 2007



Then the arrests on the 6 November 2007: two students and a musician.
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Offline stewarthome2000


User avatar


Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:47 am

Posts: 152

Location: Perugia, Italy

PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 9:30 am   Post subject: an answer for everything!..hah   

[quote=”Skep”] I'm one of those people who think that this story is just a little too convenient. It is one of those either you believe it or you don't, because there are no witnesses (that we know of). For that matter, there are no witnesses who can say that AK took a shower when she said she did.[/quote]
Me too.
It’s actually a pretty good story for here in Italy though. The marble floors are like black ice when wet, and I know people who have actually done that not to slip and drip all over the marble. I have seen roommate throw the towel on the ground and do the, as TM calls, “the bath mat shuffle”.


[quote=”jumpy”] ….I don't believe that they were finished when the Postal Police arrived. [/quote]
That is certainly possible…in fact probable.


[quote=”Nicki”] If I get it right, you're saying-or better Knox is- that she dragged the mat once to the bedroom, then back to the bathroom- and then went back to bedroom barefoot leaving the mat in the bathroom. Then she went back to the bathroom -was she wearing her shoes at this point?-and finally she sees the blood. …. it 's another very "peculiar finding" coupled to another ready "convenient explanation" - Wonder how many "fortuitous coincidences" the jury will be willing to believe before they feel they're being "presi per il culo" by the two honor students. [/quote]
Hah! Yeah that is basically what she said. I don’t think she had her shoes on at that point. It seems to be one convenient, or inconvenient depending who is listening, coincidence after another At some point ya gotta say… “ah mazza, ma stai scherzando?!”..but I like “mi presi per il culo”. (we will let them look that up). I mean how many passes can ya give?


[quote=”the machine”] I already have a couple of questions: [/quote]
Only 8 questions?! Are you slippin? :)
Pray tell you say, interesting that you should ask, as she and the defense just so happened to have a response. I can only tell ya what she said, the prosecution claims and what I observed. Here ya go for better or worse.


1. Why did she have a shower in a blood-spattered bathroom, which had a very visible large bloody footprint on the blue bathmat?
She said she only saw the blood in the sink, but did not think muhc of it, let alone a murder.
Actually the bath mat that you have seen in pictures is enhanced. I have seen the actual picture of the mat next to the one in the papers which was saturated with color to enhance the image. To the viewer it jumps out…in the regular picture it’s much more subtle…almost like a light stain. Can't really blame her too much on that one.


2. Why didn't she notice the trail of bloody footprints leading up to the blue bath mat?
I dunno that there were any. The list of prints in the prosecution report taken described many (about 7-8 in total described in detail) but none in the bathroom leading to the mat.

3. Why did she go to her cottage to have a shower when she could have had one at Sollecito's apartment?
She was asked that question. She said the the shower in Raf’s apartment was really small and dingy and left pools of water all over the place. She preferred to go home and take a shower in a better bathroom with all her stuff (clothes, toiletries) nearby.

4. Not wanting to slip on the floor, she placed her feet on the bathroom mat and dragged it across the floor from the bathroom to her room using a walking motion to move the mat. She stepped onto the blue bathmat even though it was covered in blood?
A mentioned in Q1, the bath mat did not look “covered in blood” in the normal photo - but definitely stained.

5. So, who put her clothes into the washing machine?
I would assume it was either Meredith or her. It seems the washing machine is not a big issue just yet; It may turn out to be. But there was no blood evidence. Unless they used bleach and/or peroxide, normal soap would not have erased the traces of blood. Romanelli’s deposition specific to the washing machine mentions the contents, etc. but not any reference to it being warm, just humid. The word “umido” which was used means humid, but sometimes could be mistaken as umido caldo… like humid hot weather. I dunno.

6. Knox didn't do the bathmat shuffle in Meredith's room because it was locked and she didn't do the bathmat shuffle in Filomena's room. Where are the trail of bloody footprints leading out of Meredith's room? Why were there bloody footprints in Filomena's room and who cleaned them away?
As far as the luminol prints are concerned, there were nine all together and NONE in M’s room. If they were cleaned they probably would have shown. I dunno. Anyway luminol prints were found specifically, outside and inside AK’s room, on the bath mat (said to be RS’s), outside M’s room, in the corridor and in Filomena’s room. The defense has shown some to have AK’s and the victims DNA at least the ones the corridor. They are facing M’s room, because she said she stopped to check again if she was there. They say they came up with luminol because AK's feet were wet and the trace blood was so diluted it only showed under luminol The one in F’s room and the others have not been tested for blood. There are others unidentifiable, that they claim have been “false positives” from old latent prints with old detergents. Basically they say yes, there are AK’s prints, she took a shower. But the others are old and unidentifiable… and where are the clean up ones in M’s room? Why they were not all tested for blood..I dunno. They claim that luminol ruins the prints for positive identification, and is so inexact in its luminescence that it could be attributed to a number of size feet.

7. She was not asked about them (luminol prints), but she knew about them because she and Sollecito had cleaned them away. The postal police turned up unexpectedly. They didn't have time to take her lamp from Meredith's room and return it to her own room and I expect the pesky bloody footprint on the blue bathmat wasn't very easy to get rid off.
Who knows? That is certainly what the prosecution says. But the defense story also fits just as snug.

8. The prosecution haven't presented the forensic evidence yet. We don't know whether they are making a big deal out of the footprints or not.
Yeah... your right. But from what I have read about the prosecution case, relatively speaking, it has surprisingly little on the “clean up”. It concentrates on the wounds, the multiple aggressor evidence, the knife, the luminol prints, the witnesses and behavior. It mentions a possible clean up, but does not go into depth, like it does elsewhere. Maybe a paragraph in all.


[quote=”skep”] Remember, according to Frank, who "interviewed" AK recently, she never used the machine because it was always broken….. and of course this is as it must be, for otherwise Knox would have noticed the mess inside Filomena's room. Indeed, this is what Knox says in her 4 November e-mail:... [/quote]
Yep… when she first arrived she said it was broken, then later in a month or so she said it was fixed. So did others.
In the interrogation, Mignini asked, how did you know Filomena’s door was open? Did you try it and go in? She stated that Filomena’s door was ajar, that is open enough to touch and be closed, but also see clearly that it was not locked. She says she did not try it nor go in.



[quote=”the machine”] This is not a minor point. Everyone I've spoken to about the case in the real world thinks that Knox and Sollecito are guilty for the simple reason that they don't believe innocent people give multiple alibis and lie repeatedly. The defence's forensic experts might be able to blind the jury with science, but they won't convince them there is an innocent explanation for Knox's and Sollecito's repeated lies. Knox's and Sollecito's lawyers can't magic away their lies.
Over to you Stewart...[/quote]
I feel like I am on a news broadcast. Thanks for the segue TM.
Yes indeed. It seems that their lies and credibility problem are more telling than the actual evidence. The defense can finagle the evidence, but to win this they need to get rid the lies and confession. So they must put forth the “young and alone innocent little bright-eyed honor student, who draws rainbows, sings and skips to school, (cannabis-flavored) lollipop in hand”, versus the "big bad storm trooping carabinieri and their satan-hunting superstitious prosecutor". Given the actual evidence, if you can draw pity on the lies and confession, who knows what could happen?! See my past post on jury psychology.


Like I said before…it’s a barn burner.
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Offline Bluetit


Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:01 am

Posts: 39

Location: France

PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:14 am   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Was Filomena's door open or closed on the morning of 2 November?

Indeed, this is what Knox says in her 4 November e-mail:

Quote:
lauras door was open which meant she wasnt
home, and filomenas door was also closed. my door was open like always
and meredith door was closed, which to me weant she was sleeping



This may seem like a minor point, but it is not.


What about the also in "filomenas door was also closed" ? Strange, isn't it ? One would expect either "but Filomena's door was closed" or something like "and Filomena's door was also half open" or "ajar".
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Offline mylady007


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:21 am

Posts: 50

PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 12:27 pm   Post subject:    

Amanda said she showered with Raffaele and he cleaned her ears.

So, she needed two showers, ie the bathmat shuffle?

_____

When the first report of the murder hit MSN, I looked at the picture of the American girl and thought, "Wow, no way - what are they thinking. Young, smart, 'American' girls don't do this sort of thing; they are well educated and just don't put themselves in the middle of something so horrid and brutal."

It didn't take long to realize that the authorities in Italy were doing what needed to be done.

A person just cannot repeatedly lie when the subject matter is so sensitive. You just cannot lie, and you won't if you're innocent. Lies = guilt.
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Offline mojo


Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:31 pm

Posts: 225

PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 1:06 pm   Post subject:    

stewarthome2000 wrote:
mojo wrote:
i'll be interested to know what was in the washer....only clothes?? or rags as well?? was bleach involved there?

and if clothes -- WHOSE?


The squadra mobile report dated Nov 7, 2007, listed (in summary) the following items taken from the washing machine that day, which they described as "still humid". About 8 shirts (various tees with print "beatles", universita per stranieri, pop art london, polo, zara, etc.), three towels, a number of pairs of sox, and underwear. The contents were reviewed by Romanelli and she separated and accounted for the items indicating to whom each belonged. Only Meredith's and Amandas items were in the machine. No rags or "stracci" found. One report described the findings as insignificant.

To Petafly...ergo? Need more than that.


thanks, Stewart.....towels, eh? and was there a bleachy smell. sounds like nothing, but i'd be interested to know if amanda and meredith often shared loads of laundry. and did they dust the washer for prints?? who put these in....i may be a bit anal, but seems to me that nothing can be ruled insignificant in this case....of course they have much stronger evidence and don't need to focus on this??
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 1:29 pm   Post subject: Wilkens has made it   

Well, congratulations to Harry Wilkens, he made it onto the 48 hours show, along with all the other conspiracy theorists:



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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 1:59 pm   Post subject: Re: an answer for everything!..hah   

[quote="stewarthome2000"] 6. As far as the luminol prints are concerned, there were nine all together and NONE in M’s room. If they were cleaned they probably would have shown. I dunno. Anyway luminol prints were found specifically, outside and inside AK’s room, on the bath mat (said to be RS’s), outside M’s room, in the corridor and in Filomena’s room. The defense has shown some to have AK’s and the victims DNA at least the ones the corridor. They are facing M’s room, because she said she stopped to check again if she was there. They say they came up with luminol because AK's feet were wet and the trace blood was so diluted it only showed under luminol .

Hi Stewart,

Just a couple more questions.

How did Amanda Knox manage to leave her bloody footprint outside Meredith's room when she was standing on the bathmat?

Who do the defence think the bloody footprint on the blue bathmat belongs to? Kermit's powerpoint presention showed that it was too small to be Rudy Guede's foot?

The man's bloody footprint on the blue bathmat was made in bare feet. Do the defence think that Rudy Guede took his shoes and socks off after Meredith had been killed?
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 2:41 pm   Post subject: Re: ...clearing up the clean up   

stewarthome2000 wrote:
I am putting together a chart of evidence against AK and RS, and using a theoretical point system which weighs any and all evidence and quantifies it with a number.


Stew,
Before I forget, does your chart have a grid in it for the how well the evidence (or reasonable inferences from it) support the charges? If not, should I do one? (I'll have to learn how. - it sounds a bit like De Bono's Information Hat thinking mode)

What I'm thinking about is something Nic Gentile said last October (I just came across it in a blog while I was looking for something else - isn't that always the case? :) )


Nicodemo Gentile wrote:

“Siamo sempre più convinti dell’infondatezza dell’accusa in particolare per la mancanza del concorso tra gli imputati”
We’re more convinced than ever of the baselessness of the charges, especially about the lack of complicity amongst the accused.
[ Blog ] 21 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 2:45 pm   Post subject: Re: an answer for everything!..hah   

The Machine wrote:
Hi Stewart,
Just a couple more questions.
How did Amanda Knox manage to leave her bloody footprint outside Meredith's room when she was standing on the bathmat?
Who do the defence think the bloody footprint on the blue bathmat belongs to? Kermit's powerpoint presention showed that it was too small to be Rudy Guede's foot?
The man's bloody footprint on the blue bathmat was made in bare feet. Do the defence think that Rudy Guede took his shoes and socks off after Meredith had been killed?


Apparently these occured when she left the bathroom with bare feet, most likely still moist from having showered and stepped on the mat with the trace blood.
Her sequence is she went in her room, undressed, went to the bathroom, showered, then used the mat while dripping wet to go ter her room and get a towel. She grabs the towel and starts the "shuffle" back to the bathroom (to dry off "grosso modo"), also cleaning up wet spots she left. Then with bare feet she walks out of the bathroom (she says still slighly wet), probably stops in from of M's room (unsure), and heads into bedroom to dry off the rest of the wayand get dressed.

The defense do not say to whom they think the print on the mat belongs to only that given its shape it cannot be attributed to RS or AK.
They dont believe it cannot be Rudy's or anyone else's for that matter. That is specifically their expert's argument, that non "epidermis" prints like the one on the mat and made by luminol are inconclusive for identification purposes, and they document copius other forensic articles that agree. Apparently while wet moving quickly one leaves a smaller trace, staying in one spot wet one leaves an enlarged trace... I dunno I am not an expert.

But basically their forensic experts are saying a luminol print, or the print like the one on the mat cannot be used for identification, including conclusive size. With all do respect to Kermit as I dont know his expertise. Just reporting what is being argued, or will be argued.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 4:35 pm   Post subject:    

Bluetit wrote:

Quote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Was Filomena's door open or closed on the morning of 2 November?

Indeed, this is what Knox says in her 4 November e-mail:

Quote:

lauras door was open which meant she wasnt
home, and filomenas door was also closed. my door was open like always
and meredith door was closed, which to me weant she was sleeping



This may seem like a minor point, but it is not.



What about the also in "filomenas door was also closed" ? Strange, isn't it ? One would expect either "but Filomena's door was closed" or something like "and Filomena's door was also half open" or "ajar"


Salut Bluetit! Ca fait un bail!

Yes, it's very odd but then again look at the rest of the email. It is sloppy grammatically, as well as in terms of spelling, and contains molto typos. With the also and the preceding sentence about Laura's door, the expectation is: Filomena's door was also open... But if that was the intent, then it blows the story about Sollecito descovering the burglary behind the closed door. I wonder if Sollecito was present when Knox composed the email.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 4:40 pm   Post subject:    

TM and Stewart wrote:

Quote:
4. Not wanting to slip on the floor, she placed her feet on the bathroom mat and dragged it across the floor from the bathroom to her room using a walking motion to move the mat. She stepped onto the blue bathmat even though it was covered in blood?
A mentioned in Q1, the bath mat did not look “covered in blood” in the normal photo - but definitely stained.


As for this bathmat shuffle, is it something AK did each time she showered in the cottage? Is it something she had done since childhood? Or just an improv on that particular day? Drying her feet on the bathmat (which is made of simple woolly cotton) would not have been far simpler?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 4:47 pm   Post subject:    

Bolint wrote:

Quote:
Skep wrote:
Quote:
"His father called him at 12:40."
and
"Luca and Marco arrived at about 12:45"


Could you give a source for these? We desperately need any reliable timing data.


The call information is from the most reliable source that exists (actual data) but that's all I can say. I can't share it. You'll just have to trust me. As for the arrival of Luca and Marco, I am basing it on the testimony. They arrived about 15 minutes before Filomena I think.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 4:49 pm   Post subject:    

Bolint wrote:

Quote:
The Machine wrote:

"The defence's forensic experts might be able to blind the jury with science, but they won't convince them there is an innocent explanation for Knox's and Sollecito's repeated lies. Knox's and Sollecito's lawyers can't magic away their lies"

The problem is that the prosecutors have not done a good job so far with the witnesses to make those lies clear to the jury.

I am especially not satisfied how the arrival time of the Postal Police was handled by the prosecution.

They are not critical enough of their own proofs and so there remain unnecessary leaks in their proofs.


Are you sure they handled it so badly? Even if you assume they got it wrong and that the CCTV footage is wrong (how?), as Finn has shown (and as Sollecito has admitted) they did not arrive after Sollecito called 112. And neither did Luca and Marco.

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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 5:40 pm   Post subject:    

Skep wrote:
"but that's all I can say. I can't share it. You'll just have to trust me."

OK, that's enough for me.

"As for the arrival of Luca and Marco, I am basing it on the testimony. They arrived about 15 minutes before Filomena I think."

But was there actually an estimation of that time interval in the testimony of either Luca or the postals? Or is this just a conclusion from the sequence of actions reported?

It is also connected to your question in the next post.
Any conclusion must be well supported by the testimonies.
For example they must ask Luca how long that interval could have been, if there was any call to or by Filomena or Paola that could help specify time and place, etc. In what I have seen (which clearly is not much) from the trial no such news surfaced (I also know it does not mean much).
But my impression is that they relied too much on the CCTV and missed other means of getting timing information that would have supoorted the CCTV which they did not document well as it turned out.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 5:53 pm   Post subject:    

Bolint wrote:

Quote:
Skep wrote:
"but that's all I can say. I can't share it. You'll just have to trust me."

OK, that's enough for me.

"As for the arrival of Luca and Marco, I am basing it on the testimony. They arrived about 15 minutes before Filomena I think."

But was there actually an estimation of that time interval in the testimony of either Luca or the postals? Or is this just a conclusion from the sequence of actions reported?

It is also connected to your question in the next post.
Any conclusion must be well supported by the testimonies.
For example they must ask Luca how long that interval could have been, if there was any call to or by Filomena or Paola that could help specify time and place, etc. In what I have seen (which clearly is not much) from the trial no such news surfaced (I also know it does not mean much).
But my impression is that they relied too much on the CCTV and missed other means of getting timing information that would have supported the CCTV which they did not document well as it turned out.


I agree with you about the testimonies. I am basing my ETA on testimony about AK and RS separating themselves. It is fairly obvious that this is when the phone calls were made (AK to her mother, RS to his sister and then twice to 112). Is it Paola who sees them emerge from the room shortly before 1 pm? If you put all of these testimonies together and don't assume that every person got the time totally wrong, then the phone call log and sequence of events make more sense. I realize this is not air-tight, and I am hoping for other data to support it.

But for me, it is nearly enough that Sollecito says he called the police after the postal police arrived. So we know they arrived before 12:51.

For independent and approximate corroboration, Filomena's phone records would be useful. What time did she call Luca and Marco? Where were they? How long did it take to get to the cottage? These things are measurable. In any case, Micheli notes in his report that these phone records tell a different story than the ones told by Sollecito and Knox, and theirs don't exactly match up, do they?

Can anyone tell me why Knox did not try to reach Meredith a few more times once she was standing outside her locked door? Just in case she could hear a ringing phone through the door?

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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 6:18 pm   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Can anyone tell me why Knox did not try to reach Meredith a few more times once she was standing outside her locked door? Just in case she could hear a ringing phone through the door?


Guede was not convicted of theft or staging of the crime scene, that leaves the two being prosecuted at the moment responsible for the stealing of phones which could mean... there was no point in calling standing by the door because they knew that phones were not there. The couple of calls she made previously from Sollecito's place or on her way to the cottage would have been enough to stablished her/their 'panic' about Meredith's whereabouts.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 6:20 pm   Post subject:    

"why Knox did not try to reach Meredith a few more times once she was standing outside her locked door"

Because she knew that once there is no reply, there won't be reply anymore. Just checked it before starting the discovery phase.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 6:34 pm   Post subject:    

Bolint wrote:

Quote:
"why Knox did not try to reach Meredith a few more times once she was standing outside her locked door"

Because she knew that once there is no reply, there won't be reply anymore. Just checked it before starting the discovery phase.


Why? Meredith could have had her cell phones turned off and could have switched them back on at any time. The mystery would be solved. Maybe she was in town, or had spent the night with her friends.

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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 6:37 pm   Post subject:    

Skep wrote:
"But for me, it is nearly enough that Sollecito says he called the police after the postal police arrived. "

For me too.
At that time in the jail he did not know what the police had so he tried to lie the necessary minimum by telling that he called her sister and "wanted to call" the police when the postals arrived.

During a year he and his defence avoided the topic.

Later from the evidence he learnt that the police had no hard proof as the CCTV was not that clear proof as it had sounded, so he declared early in the trial that he had called the carabinieri before the postals arrived.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 6:45 pm   Post subject:    

"Meredith could have had her cell phones turned off and could have switched them back on at any time. "

And of course she could have sent a text message as she reportedly had done many times earlier as recounted by her mother.

But she knew that Meredith will not turn on her phones.
The first (the English) phone rang and that was a bit disturbing but the next call signaled "out of service".
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 7:10 pm   Post subject:    

Bolint wrote:

Quote:
"Meredith could have had her cell phones turned off and could have switched them back on at any time. "

And of course she could have sent a text message as she reportedly had done many times earlier as recounted by her mother.

But she knew that Meredith will not turn on her phones. The first (the English) phone rang and that was a bit disturbing but the next call signaled "out of service".



Do you mean because she knew what had happened to the phones and to their owner?

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Offline disinterested


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 8:21 pm   Post subject: A personal reaction   

Here is a comment about Van Sant's program that I read on the CBS website, which I found very powerful, especially as the person knew Meredith.
(If it's not cool for me to lift this quotation wholesale from another site, please Admin., just remove it):


Posted by serene2105 at 12:15 AM : Apr 12, 2009

I am a British friend of Meredith Kercher currently living in California and, since her passing, have tried to avoid all news reports on her murder and trial. Tonight my motivations for that have been confirmed. I tend to follow developments strictly through BBC News and people who are in direct contact with Meredith's parents.
I decided not to watch tonight's 48 Hours special because it would be too painful in general, but specifically to avoid the horrifically biased reporting that I have come to expect from the U.S. media. However, I wanted to give CBS the benefit of the doubt and checked the article on the site to find out whether they were able to produce a respectful, objective report.
I couldn't manage to read past the first few pages when it became too obvious which way this was leaning. This is heartbreaking and frankly I am beyond words. I feel like any comments I would make about the minimal mentioning of the damning evidence against Knox & Sollecito would be a waste of energy.
Shame on you, CBS, for disrespecting Meredith by blatantly siding with Knox. The mere fact that you are quoting a random novelist in the first few paragraphs of your article, using the words "hysteria, lies, superstition and crazy conspiracy theories", is outrageous and testament to your low-life, biased reporting is meant to encourage readers to see this case as an attempt of those "American-hating Italians" to turn an innocent Knox into a scapegoat.
You say this case is a "murder-mystery sensation in Europe". Really? Perhaps that is because this wasn't just any kind of murder of a bright, vivacious, funny, caring, promising young woman in her own bedroom, but an unprecedentedly horrific one, allegedly involving extreme sadist actions. And perhaps you can imagine that would stir some extreme emotions and attention in Europe towards the case, as it has in the US? And ask yourself: when an American gets killed on foreign territory, does it go unnoticed??
And then to mention the claims of Knox being abused and forced into a confession by Italian authorities on the first page of your report? Admittedly, I haven't been able to finish the article, but the amount of alleged evidence clearing Knox I was able to read is so appalling that I am once again shocked and disappointed that this kind of "journalism" is tolerated in the US.
We live in an age where media have extreme power in influencing public opinion and - having scanned over a few comments from posters - this is once again clear.
I feel like any plea towards CBS to reverse or rectify anything will go unheard, but I urge the American public to have a heart, and honor Meredith and her direct family and friends.
Set your nationalistic views aside and stop supporting Knox just because she is an American. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty, but why side with someone who is on trial for murder, just because she is an American?
As for the poster who said she is terrified of her son traveling outside the US: I understand your motivations are purely out of love and concern, but please consider how many horrific crimes and accidents happen all across the US. Don't take Meredith's tragic passing as an opportunity/excuse to express your anti-foreign country views. This tragedy could have taken place anywhere on earth. Location and any nationality involved are completely irrelevant. Meredith was murdered outside her native country, in her beloved Italy, but you won't see any British reporting (be it press or other commentary) blaming Italy.
The USA is a nation of free speech, but Meredith deserves more respect than this.


Last edited by disinterested on Sun Apr 12, 2009 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 8:36 pm   Post subject:    

Disinterested wrote:

Quote:
Here is a comment about Van Sant's program that I read on the CBS website, which I found very powerful, especially as the person knew Meredith.
(If it's not cool for me to lift this quotation wholesale from another site, please Admin., just remove it).


No worries. Thanks for posting it. As I watched the show, I found myself wondering how members of Meredith's family or her friends would feel if they were unfortunate enough to stumble upon it.

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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 9:16 pm   Post subject:    

"Do you mean because she knew what had happened to the phones and to their owner?"

Yes.
I don't buy the story that she was banging the locked room door and not calling while the flat door was found open. That's a big lie.
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Offline Fly by Night


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 9:53 pm   Post subject: Re: A personal reaction   

disinterested wrote:
Here is a comment about Van Sant's program that I read on the CBS website, which I found very powerful, especially as the person knew Meredith. (If it's not cool for me to lift this quotation wholesale from another site, please Admin., just remove it):


That's a great summary, disinterested, and thanks for posting it. This recent highly manipulative FOA media blitz is thoroughly disgusting. What else is there to say? I'd like to see 48hrs do a followup show called "British Girl, Italian Nightmare" - where the facts surrounding this case, of which there are many, are reported and the baseless conjecture is left out. It would start out:
"Imagine you sent your daughter to school in Italy and she wound up murdered - and her American roommate had no alibi..."


Last edited by Fly by Night on Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline FinnMacCool


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:25 pm   Post subject: An open and shut case   

bolint wrote:
"why Knox did not try to reach Meredith a few more times once she was standing outside her locked door"

Because she knew that once there is no reply, there won't be reply anymore. Just checked it before starting the discovery phase.


Amanda's story (in her email) is that she tried Meredith's phones while she was at Raffaele's place. Even if she thinks the UK one is out of order, the Italian one wasn't - it just rang and rang. If she tried it again, when she got home, then had it been behind Meredith's door, she'd have been able to hear it ring and ring.

But that's supposing we're believing Amanda's story.

Amanda Knox's email wrote:
lauras door was open which meant she wasnt home, and filomenas door was also closed


That seemed strange to me at first reading - the word you're expecting, as Skep says, is "open". And maybe that's what Amanda was expecting to write, until she thought again, and realized that if she wrote "open", she'd have been able to see the break-in beyond the door. So she had to switch it to "closed".

If we switch hypothesis, and imagine that the police are broadly telling the truth, and Amanda is deliberately telling lies, then a lot of puzzles disappear.

So in the next few lines, I'll put the confirmed parts in bold, and everything else is just conjecture or deduction.

Filomena hears her saying that she's at the cottage, not because Filomena can't understand her, but because she's at the cottage. Raffaele describes the same conversation as taking place at the cottage because that's where it took place. So at 1207, they're at the cottage (and probably before then).

This means that she's already tried Meredith's phones from the cottage. So we've no longer got any mystery about why she only rang from Raffaele's house, and not the cottage - she already tried them from the cottage. That's where she was.

Now the CCTV footage is right, and the police arrive at the car park at 1225. It takes them a couple of minutes to get from the car to Amanda and Raffaele in front of the cottage - or about 1230, as they describe it.

Straightaway, Amanda and Raffaele tell the cops about the break-in. So when Filomena calls Amanda at 1234, Amanda now mentions it to Filomena too. Because the police are now there in the house, looking at the rooms.

Filomena calls Marco after 1234 (even without the phone records, we can be sure of this, because of testimony, and Frank's report) and tells him to get to the cottage as quick as he can.

Something else we know about Luca's arrival is that Amanda had already written down Meredith's phone numbers when Luca arrived- this was on the kitchen table when Luca arrived and spoke with Battistelli.

Where's Amanda at this point? Quite possibly, in the bedroom, phoning her mom. It's an overdue phone call, she's been waiting to make it - with the arrival of Marco and Luca, she knows she's got a couple of minutes and a bit of privacy. So she calls Edda at 1246, and Edda says, "Hang up and call the cops." But of course, the police are already there.

And this explains the mystery of why Amanda never mentioned calling her mom when she and Raffaele were thinking about calling the police. She wasn't running up and down outside, while Raffaele tried to break the door down inside. She was in her own bedroom, taking a moment away from the police to try to create a "we already phoned the cops" scenario.

And why DID Raffaele try to break down the door, by the way? In this particular theory, let's imagine he does it as part of the staging - he wants to portray the intruder as breaking down Meredith's locked door, while she hides inside. But Raffaele doesn't manage to break it down.

And why doesn't Amanda want the police to break the door down? Again in this scenario, we can say that she doesn't want to be the ones who are first on the scene. She wants to hand that responsibility on to someone else. So it's a delaying tactic - but for consistency's sake, she repeats it (after 1300) to Luca Altieri.

So Amanda puts down the phone to Edda, who says, look, call the cops, and four minutes later, Raffaele calls his sister, and then the police. After the second emergency call which ends 1255, they emerge from Amanda's bedroom, which Paola Grande describes in her testimony. This ties in with Paola's story that she and Filomena arrived just before one. This in turn ties in with what definitely happened next - the postal police at the cottage talk to HQ at 1300 and they have Filomena with them, and she's talked to them about Meredith's phones.

After 1300, Filomena checks out the break-in - she doubts it too, just like the postal police. Amanda tells Luca that Meredith always locks her door. Filomena contradicts this, and says that Meredith doesn't normally lock her own door. There's some debate, and then Luca Altieri kicks down the door at 1315.

Summary: a lot of that is just speculation, but it's a hypothesis that solves puzzles rather than creating more. We've seen how Amanda's email story just doesn't work, even if we assume that the police have got all their facts and timings wrong. The trouble (for Amanda and Raffaele) is, when we assume things the other way round, the new hypothesis basically works.

I think most neutral observers have been down the probable guilt, reasonable doubt end of the spectrum. But unless the defense can come up with a better story than the one in Amanda's email of November 3, all that reasonable doubt will start to fade away like the morning dew.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:13 am   Post subject:    

Finn wrote:

Quote:
Filomena hears her saying that she's at the cottage, not because Filomena can't understand her, but because she's at the cottage. Raffaele describes the same conversation as taking place at the cottage because that's where it took place. So at 1207, they're at the cottage (and probably before then).

This means that she's already tried Meredith's phones from the cottage. So we've no longer got any mystery about why she only rang from Raffaele's house, and not the cottage - she already tried them from the cottage. That's where she was.


Here are two more hypotheses: Knox did not return to Sollecito's place after her shower, but instead remained at the cottage. Sollecito was with Knox at the cottage when she called Filomena. I would like to stress that these are hypotheses only.

In any case, cell records do not indicate a call from Knox to Sollecito or vice versa prior to 12:07 or after that time. The answer to the question why did Knox go back to fetch Sollecito rather than just calling him is then answered. She didn't need to fetch him; he was already there. The question that remains is why she told Filomena she was going to fetch him.

Sollecito's father called his cell phone at 9:30 am. The call lasted 41 seconds. Could this have been a message being left? In any case, Sollecito's father calls again at 12:40 and the call lasts 67 seconds.

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Offline Brogan


Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 2:41 am

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:49 am   Post subject:    

Ther are just a few points I'm trying to get my head around. It seems accepted that the burglary was staged and that there had been a clean up.
Ak returned home and in spite of suspecting that they had been robbed took a shower and stepped in sufficiant blood to leave a trail of foot prints, before going to RS's home for help.
How much blood would she have had to stand in to leave full prints, I would think a pool bigger than her foot. How was it that she managed to enter take a shower and change without leaving a substancial number of fingerprints around the apartment.
Are they suggesting that whoever cleaned up came back and cleaned up some more.
If one of you could just clear some of these points up for me I would be very grateful.
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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:31 am   Post subject:    

Perugia and what Amanda did there

What Amanda, Raffaele and Rudy say they did needs to be, (a) not only self-consistent, but also (b) corroborated. Until then, it can only be speculation (even on their own part, as they themselves, however sincerely, try to “fill in the blanks” – assuming the claimed memory loss is “true”).

As regards getting one's head around things, it seems Amanda’s lawyer put a stop to the kaleidoscope of helpful versions springing forth from her fertile mind:


Quote:



On the day that the investigating magistrate confirmed the arrests of Knox, Sollecito and Lumumba (09 November 2007), Repubblica TV put out an hour-long podshow, during which, conincidently, one of the anchors, Tiziana Testa, had some “just in” news, that police were seeking “a fourth man” (see Part 2, at the 13min 43sec mark). [Note: He would later turn out to be Rudy Guede, and Patrick Lumumba would be released, all charges dropped.]

Journalist Meo Ponte was on the line, saying how, just as Amanda was about to go to her 4th version of events, her lawyer said, “If you do, I’m off!” (as in “See you later!” as in “Bye!”, me ne vado) – (Part 1, at 4.09)

Fellow journalist Carlo Bonini, in the Rome studio, elaborated later about how, knowing her lawyer for only 4 days, Amanda had come up with 3 different versions of events, so he told her to not say anything any more (Part 2, at 1.12). Bonini’s thought was that, after in effect painting a detailed picture of what happened, choosing silence and refusing to answer only complicates matters (Part 1, 9.36 and 10.03).

Bonini’s single major doubt is: Why recount a string of uninterrupted lies? (Part 1, 12.02)

Note: at the beginning, Meo Ponte described how, no matter how detailed and convoluted Amanda’s stories, they were always vague on the death itself. (Part 1, 5.21). (He also described them as “farraginosa” = “jumbled”, “muddled”, which, ironically, is how the Italian legal system is traditionally portrayed in the popular media).

Criminologist Barbara Vettori in Milan thinks Amanda is the key person: she’s an extreme liar; her socialising with the prison guards and showing no remorse makes her a mystery (Part 2, 16.24 to 17.02). On the other hand, the various blogs involved in this case are “normal” in terms of contents and photos, and blogs aren’t the same as a person’s character (Part 1, 13.35 to 14.31). After some to-and-fro, including Bonini opining that violence has become acceptable, with just “another bad day” being cured by “a good afternoon’s shopping” (Part 2, 20.31 to 21.22), anchor Tiziana remarked to the criminologist, “We’re probably going to have to redefine what we mean by ‘normal’”.

Bonini also opined that isolation does not cause fear in people with sociopathic tendencies, so the prosecution’s arrest-them strategy might not have the effect that they expect (Part 2, 26.11). And anyway, in legal cases, plausible is not enough – it has to be shown to have been what happened (Part 2, 25.59).

P.S. The Rector of the University for Foreigners, Stefania Giannini, was on the phone, and pointed out that, even though the university and city has the usual student and drug problems, the tragic events could have occurred anywhere, in any city. She reminded journalists of the ethics of reporting the story with that in mind. She also confirmed that the “room-for-rent” flyer with Meredith’s date of death as the contact phone number was indeed a bad-taste joke. (Part 1, 27.07 to 30.56).


"I Misteri di Perugia" (The Mysteries of Perugia)
[ Podcast ] Part 1 (30 min)
[ Podcast ] Part 2 (30 min)
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:54 am   Post subject:    

Skep wrote:
"Sollecito's father called his cell phone at 9:30 am. The call lasted 41 seconds. Could this have been a message being left? In any case, Sollecito's father calls again at 12:40 and the call lasts 67 seconds."

Is there some cell info (to which tower RS-s phone connected)?
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:04 am   Post subject:    

Finn wrote:
"Even if she thinks the UK one is out of order, the Italian one wasn't - it just rang and rang. "

The Italian phone did not ring at all (per email). Anyway, by then it was at the postals headquarters.


"Filomena calls Marco after 1234 (even without the phone records, we can be sure of this, because of testimony, and Frank's report) and tells him to get to the cottage as quick as he can. "

I'm not so sure. Amanda's call took some time and then Filomena called Marco again some time, Marco called Luca, Luca picked up Marco and they went to the cottage. This sequence takes some time.
I think Filomena called Marco earlier. She did not want to go there alone.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:21 am   Post subject:    

This is my updated list of known phone events:

Nov 1
12:02 last activity on Raffaele's fixed line
20:18 Amanda receives Lumumba's SMS (cell 622)
20:35 Amanda sends answer to Lumumba's SMS
20:42-46 Raffaele and his father on cellphone
22:00 Meredith's phone calls bank without prefix
22:13 Meredith's phone internet connection (attempt?) to bank (cell 622)
23:14:11 Francesco Sollecito (?calls Raffaele's cellphone unsuccesfully and) sends SMS

Nov 2
00:10 John Kercher call's Meredith's English phone
06:02:59 Raffaele receives his father's SMS sent the night before
09:30 (length: 41 sec, per Skep) Francesco Sollecito calls Raffaele
12:07 Amanda calls Meredith's English phone (ringing)
12:08 (length: "just over a minute", per Charlie Wilkes) Amanda calls Filomena
12:11 (length: 3 sec, per Finn) Amanda calls Meredith's Italian phone (ringing)
12:11 (length: 4 sec, per Finn) Amanda calls Meredith's English phone ("out of service" message)
12:12 Filomena calls Amanda
12:20 Filomena calls Amanda
12:20 Raffaele recharges his cellphone account
12:34 Filomena calls Amanda
12:40 (length: 67 sec, per Skep) Francesco Sollecito calls Raffaele
12:47 Amanda calls mother
12:50 Raffaele calls sister
12:51 Raffaele calls police (112)
12:54:39 (length: at least 48 sec, per audio broadcast) Raffaele calls police again (112)

Nov 3
14:16 First activity on Raffaele's fixed line.


Last edited by bolint on Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:16 pm   Post subject:    

Over on the media side:

Amanda's little sister Deanna has an interview in "Gente" magazine, says the [ADN Kronos] agency: "The Italian media, in describing my sister, are mistaken from many points of view. She's not a ..." etc.
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Offline FinnMacCool


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:43 pm   Post subject:    

I think it's really helpful to put that kind of list together, to get some verifiable facts all in the one place.

bolint wrote:
This is my updated list of known phone events:
12:07 Amanda calls Meredith's English phone (ringing)
12:08 Amanda calls Filomena
12:11 Amanda calls Meredith's Italian phone (nothing)
12:11 Amanda calls Meredith's English phone ("out of service" message)


I've heard - from what I think is a reliable source - that the third call mentioned there lasted three seconds and the fourth call lasted four seconds.

I'm not sure where you get "nothing" from, for the third call. Maybe you're right, but in her email, here's how Amanda describes it: "i then calle the italian
phone and it just kept ringing, no answer." When you put that together with a length of call of just three seconds, it sounds very odd.

By way of comparison, I found this call company boasting that their speed of answering calls is 5.5 seconds.
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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:57 pm   Post subject:    

Do we know who called Meredith's phones around 8-9am in the morning on the 2nd Nov?
This was when Mrs Lana heard her garden ringing (or did she?) and found the first phone.
She saw the name "Amanda" when she had the phone in her hand later, so that would be the after-12 call.
Her daughter found the other phone while she was at the police station reporting the first one.

I'd presume - if there was a call(or calls) - that it would have been Meredith's family, following up not having
any contact with her since the early the night before.
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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:04 pm   Post subject:    

Translation of press agency preview of magazine article:


Quote:


MEREDITH MURDER: AMANDA’S SISTER VERSUS THE ITALIAN MEDIA:
“THEY’RE WRONG, SHE’S NOT A PRAYING MANTIS” '


Rome, 13 Apr. - (Adnkronos) - 'The Italian media describing my sister are wrong from many points of view. It’s ridiculous: she’s not a praying mantis [mantide]*. Amanda is bright and cheerful”. So said Amanda Knox’s little sister Deanna to 'Gente' magazine. [Amanda Knox is] together with her ex-boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito currently under trial for the murder of Meredith Kercher, the English student killed on the night of 1 and 2 November 2007 in the cottage in via della Pergola in Perugia.

“She’s always thinking about others,’ she added.”She’s kind and thoughtful with everyone she meets. She’s able to brighten up a grey day with a simple smile. I love my sister with all my heart.”

“We were together in Umbria when I found the house, she had gone into school, I stayed outside in the sun,” she continues, “I saw a girl (Filomena - ed.) who was attaching a sign to the pole right behind me: it was about an apartment.”

“Amanda fell in love with the place straight away, she was smitten by the garden,” recounted the sister. “Once inside, we met the other girl who was living there (Laura), she was very sweet.”

“When I go to visit her in prison, she jokes about not being able to do much in the cell and wants to know what I’m up to,” she adds. “It’s always difficult going.” Amanda “found herself in the wrong place at the wrong time,” she explained. “She was living in that house and only spoke to the police to try and help,” she concludes.

“Every single day I imagine her coming home. The moment when I can hug my sister and take her home will be one of the most beautiful days in my life”.


[AND Kronos] 13 April 2009


[hr]
*Note: mantide, "praying mantis", might be slang for all I know about teenagers. Then again, it might just be "praying mantis".
There are also some punctuation type-setting errors in the original article, which I've silently corrected.
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:14 pm   Post subject:    

Catnip wrote:
Translation of press agency preview of magazine article:


Quote:


MEREDITH MURDER: AMANDA’S SISTER VERSUS THE ITALIAN MEDIA:
“THEY’RE WRONG, SHE’S NOT A PRAYING MANTIS” '


Rome, 13 Apr. - (Adnkronos) - 'The Italian media describing my sister are wrong from many points of view. It’s ridiculous: she’s not a praying mantis [mantide]*. Amanda is bright and cheerful”. So said Amanda Knox’s little sister Deanna to 'Gente' magazine. [Amanda Knox is] together with her ex-boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito currently under trial for the murder of Meredith Kercher, the English student killed on the night of 1 and 2 November 2007 in the cottage in via della Pergola in Perugia.

“She’s always thinking about others,’ she added.”She’s kind and thoughtful with everyone she meets. She’s able to brighten up a grey day with a simple smile. I love my sister with all my heart.”

“We were together in Umbria when I found the house, she had gone into school, I stayed outside in the sun,” she continues, “I saw a girl (Filomena - ed.) who was attaching a sign to the pole right behind me: it was about an apartment.”

“Amanda fell in love with the place straight away, she was smitten by the garden,” recounted the sister. “Once inside, we met the other girl who was living there (Laura), she was very sweet.”

“When I go to visit her in prison, she jokes about not being able to do much in the cell and wants to know what I’m up to,” she adds. “It’s always difficult going.” Amanda “found herself in the wrong place at the wrong time,” she explained. “She was living in that house and only spoke to the police to try and help,” she concludes.

“Every single day I imagine her coming home. The moment when I can hug my sister and take her home will be one of the most beautiful days in my life”.


[AND Kronos] 13 April 2009


[hr]
*Note: mantide, "praying mantis", might be slang for all I know about teenagers. Then again, it might just be "praying mantis".
There are also some punctuation type-setting errors in the original article, which I've silently corrected.


Hi Catnip,
"Mantide" is not teenage slang. It 's a word used in common language meaning "men eater".
Buona Pasqua
NIcki
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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:21 pm   Post subject:    

nicki wrote:
Hi Catnip,
"Mantide" is not teenage slang. It 's a word used in common language meaning "men eater".
Buona Pasqua
NIcki


Thanks Nicki.
I half expected that.
So that means "mangiauomini" in Italian is now as old-fashioned as "femme fatale" is in English. :)
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:25 pm   Post subject:    

Catnip wrote:
nicki wrote:
Hi Catnip,
"Mantide" is not teenage slang. It 's a word used in common language meaning "men eater".
Buona Pasqua
NIcki


Thanks Nicki.
I half expected that.
So that means "mangiauomini" in Italian is now as old-fashioned as "femme fatale" is in English. :)

Hi Catnip,
I wouldn't say "mangiauomini" is old-fashioned, perhaps "mantide" is a bit more elegant ...
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Offline Motorhead


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:26 pm   Post subject:    

I have a question. Meredith's door was locked, correct? I presume also that it was locked from the inside?

Now, whoever killed her didn't leave through that door. So were there any footprints outside of the house or window from the room? I haven't read anything about that. Also, if it was Knox or her boyfriend, wouldn't their shoes contain traces of dirt/grass or whatever happens to be outside that window?
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:49 pm   Post subject:    

Finn wrote:
"I'm not sure where you get "nothing" from, for the third call. Maybe you're right, but in her email, here's how Amanda describes it: "i then calle the italian phone and it just kept ringing, no answer.""

You are right, I made the mistake. It was ringing.
I corrected the list and also included the lengths of 3 and 4 seconds.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:58 pm   Post subject:    

Catnip wrote:
"Do we know who called Meredith's phones around 8-9am in the morning on the 2nd Nov? "

In the trial it was discussed that Robyn Butterworth surely called and/or texted her.
Meredith borrowed a history book from her with the promise that she would give it back by 10am the next day.

This book undermines Rudy's version of a prearranged romantic meeting with Meredith. Borrowing a history book to be returned the next morning is hardly a usual preparation.


"Lana .. She saw the name "Amanda" when she had the phone in her hand later, so that would be the after-12 call."

I think it was her daughter who saw the name "Amanda" on the second (English) phone.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:05 pm   Post subject:    

Motorhead wrote:
"I have a question. Meredith's door was locked, correct? I presume also that it was locked from the inside?"

It was locked but no key was in it.
(Raffaele allegedly even peeped in through the keyhole).

Nothing is known about the key (at least publicly).
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:06 pm   Post subject:    

Motorhead wrote:
I have a question. Meredith's door was locked, correct? I presume also that it was locked from the inside?

Now, whoever killed her didn't leave through that door. So were there any footprints outside of the house or window from the room? I haven't read anything about that. Also, if it was Knox or her boyfriend, wouldn't their shoes contain traces of dirt/grass or whatever happens to be outside that window?


What makes you presume it was locked from the inside?
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Offline Motorhead


Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:37 am

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:09 pm   Post subject:    

nicki wrote:
Motorhead wrote:
I have a question. Meredith's door was locked, correct? I presume also that it was locked from the inside?

Now, whoever killed her didn't leave through that door. So were there any footprints outside of the house or window from the room? I haven't read anything about that. Also, if it was Knox or her boyfriend, wouldn't their shoes contain traces of dirt/grass or whatever happens to be outside that window?


What makes you presume it was locked from the inside?


that i read it was broken down by the police and that Knox tried to open it and could not.

If it was locked from the outside with a key, who had the key to lock it? If Knox/Rafaelle did, they could've opened it yet didn't. Why is this not central in the investigation?

Seems to me this whole case doesn't have much to stand on, they're focusing on all the wrong things.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:18 pm   Post subject:    

More "quibbling about the times".

So, Finn, Raffaele's final police call started at 12:54:39 and it could not finish before 12:55:27.
Allowing about one minute for "waiting outside for the carabinieri" (what Frank generously described as having a tan) the postals could not come earlier than 12:56:30.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:21 pm   Post subject:    

"If it was locked from the outside with a key, who had the key to lock it? If Knox/Rafaelle did, they could've opened it yet didn't. Why is this not central in the investigation? "

It is central. But there is no key and nobody knows or wants to tell what happened to it.


Last edited by bolint on Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:22 pm   Post subject:    

Motorhead wrote:
nicki wrote:
Motorhead wrote:
I have a question. Meredith's door was locked, correct? I presume also that it was locked from the inside?

Now, whoever killed her didn't leave through that door. So were there any footprints outside of the house or window from the room? I haven't read anything about that. Also, if it was Knox or her boyfriend, wouldn't their shoes contain traces of dirt/grass or whatever happens to be outside that window?


What makes you presume it was locked from the inside?


that i read it was broken down by the police and that Knox tried to open it and could not.

If it was locked from the outside with a key, who had the key to lock it? If Knox/Rafaelle did, they could've opened it yet didn't. Why is this not central in the investigation?

Seems to me this whole case doesn't have much to stand on, they're focusing on all the wrong things.


Meredith's door is the type of latch lock that cannot be locked without a key. The windows in Meredith's door was closed from the inside -never seen any reports stating it was found opened. Therefore the door was locked from the outside. Who had the key to lock it? Good question!I whoever took Meredith's keys after they killed her, i.e. the murder(s)

Knox and Sollecito tried to break down the door, not to open it with Meredith's key. If they had killed Meredith, to open with her door key would have been the most stupid thing to do.

I wouldn't say DNA evidence and conflincting alibis-among others-are the wrong things to focus on. Actually I'd say they are pretty critical clues.
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Offline Motorhead


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:26 pm   Post subject:    

DNA evidence and alibis are good, problem is there isn't enough to prove beyond doubt that they were involved.

If this case was occuring in the USA, it would've ended long ago with a Not guilty or something of that nature. That's why it's aggrivating that it continues on scant, or no evidence.

If you can prove it was them, i made a topic for people to prove it to me as if I am the judge/jury.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:27 pm   Post subject:    

"Meredith's door is the type of latch lock that cannot be locked without a key. "

On the photos it has a normal doorhandle on both sides.
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Offline Fly by Night


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:30 pm   Post subject: Lock keyhole is lower on the door than the handle   

bolint wrote:
"Meredith's door is the type of latch lock that cannot be locked without a key. "

On the photos it has a normal doorhandle on both sides.


And your point is, what? It still needs a key to lock and unlock....
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Offline Fly by Night


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:36 pm   Post subject:    

Motorhead wrote:
DNA evidence and alibis are good, problem is there isn't enough to prove beyond doubt that they were involved.


According to who? We haven't seen much of the evidence presented in court yet.

Motorhead wrote:
If this case was occuring in the USA, it would've ended long ago with a Not guilty or something of that nature. That's why it's aggrivating that it continues on scant, or no evidence.


To the contrary, cases similar to this in the USA run about the same length of time - probably longer as this trial is actually moving along fairly quickly. A current example for comparison would be Casey Anthony in Florida.

Motorhead wrote:
If you can prove it was them, i made a topic for people to prove it to me as if I am the judge/jury.


No one needs to prove anything to you.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:36 pm   Post subject:    

"And your point is, what? "

Nothing special. Just to describe what kind of handles it has.
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Offline FinnMacCool


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:39 pm   Post subject:    

Motorhead wrote:
DNA evidence and alibis are good, problem is there isn't enough to prove beyond doubt that they were involved.


In that case they've got nothing to worry about, they'll be acquitted.

Motorhead wrote:
If this case was occuring in the USA, it would've ended long ago with a Not guilty or something of that nature.


When I pick up a US newspaper and look at the convictions for comparable murders, that are being reported from the courts at the present time, all the crimes have taken place earlier than the November 2007 murder of Meredith Kercher. I'm no expert on US trials, but it seems to me that they generally take longer than this one we've been looking at.

Motorhead wrote:
If you can prove it was them, i made a topic for people to prove it to me as if I am the judge/jury.


Thanks, but there's really no need to do this - there's a real live trial going on in Perugia, with a real live set of judges, and real live witnesses giving real live evidence. That will probably give more reliable results than whatever happens in your thread.
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Offline Fly by Night


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:44 pm   Post subject:    

Motorhead wrote:
Seems to me this whole case doesn't have much to stand on, they're focusing on all the wrong things.


Can we send you to Perugia to straighten things out? Would you have the time? It would be very helpful if you could.
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:46 pm   Post subject:    

Motorhead wrote:
DNA evidence and alibis are good, problem is there isn't enough to prove beyond doubt that they were involved.

If this case was occuring in the USA, it would've ended long ago with a Not guilty or something of that nature. That's why it's aggrivating that it continues on scant, or no evidence.


If you can prove it was them, i made a topic for people to prove it to me as if I am the judge/jury.


It's not up to you or me to decide, but to the court. I am not so naive to believe in the innocence/guilt of someone based on media-trumpeted stories, doesn't matter which side they come from. Nor it is my job to "prove" anything to anybody, I am poster, not a judge.

Defense claims evidence is scanty and prosecution claims it's strong-they're both doing the job they are paid for. The court and judges will decide who is right, they are surely better qualified than anybody else sitting thousand (or hundred) miles away. ;)

I agree that if the case was occurring in the USA it may have ended long ago with a not guilty, as it happened in OJ SImpson trial. So I rather prefer the cautious Italian approach. Everybody is entitled to his/her opinion, but in the end , the only opinion that will count is the judge's and juror's.
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Offline Motorhead


Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:37 am

Posts: 31

PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:47 pm   Post subject:    

Fly by Night wrote:
Motorhead wrote:
Seems to me this whole case doesn't have much to stand on, they're focusing on all the wrong things.


Can we send you to Perugia to straighten things out? Would you have the time? It would be very helpful if you could.


Forgive me but I can't tell if you're being sarcastic here :shock:

I have experience in law enforcement, and I'm trying to understand this entire thing from what I know. From my experience, if this was a case in the US, both Knox and her boyfriend would've been acquitted long ago.
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Offline steve.body


Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:28 pm

Posts: 1

PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:50 pm   Post subject:    

Okay, let's deal with this: Ted Bundy's history was rife with clues as to what he would later become. Velma Barfield showed signs of instability for two decades prior to her execution. Jeffrey Dahmer was a walking, talking advertisement for Future Serial Killer. In nearly EVERY court case involving a mueder as brutal as Karcher's, the perpetrator has shown a capacity for violence and SOME pattern of mental instability. There is NOTHING - NOT a SINGLE thing - in Amanda Knox's past that indicates even a shred of capacity for violence. No tortured Barbie dolls, no abused kittens, NOTHING.

I know Amanda's family. I know several of her friends. Her step-dad works ten feet from my wife. There is NO great ambiguity in Seattle as to the truth of these charges, NOT among the people who have known this family, even in passing, for their entire time in Seattle. Yeah, there are a lot of loud know-nothings - like you will find on EVERY online forum on the planet that deals with this murder - who are certain that they ABSOLUTELY KNOW what happened in that house. It's all crap. In 2009, there are millions of people who no longer distinguish between Belief and Truth. Truth is objective and unshakable. Belief is wildly objective and frequently completely irrational. And if you're one of those who don't make that distinction, your brilliant comments mean NOTHING. You can believe anything you like. Doesn't make it true.

I'm just dealing with what is LIKELY and what is too much of a stretch. Ask yourself this: If YOU were the one accused, what would YOU want people to think? How likely is it that a normal American kid, from a solid middle-class family, from old laid-back Seattle, who worked for several years to earn the money to realize her dream of school in Italy, and who has NEVER, even ONCE, shown the slightest whiff of instability or a propensity for violence, would go to Italy and suddenly become the sort of monster who would do this? If you're going to tell me that you find nothing unbelievable in this, I'm going to suggest you seek professional help, NOW.

This not not a game, It's not an academic exercise. It's a kid's entire future and it's being ruined, largely, by a self-important, egomaniacal, low-class, low-intelligence, corrupt prosecutor who wll very likely be in jail himself very shortly. The whole thing is a complete crock and if it passes your BS test, get your BS detector recalibrated ASAP.
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Offline Motorhead


Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:37 am

Posts: 31

PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:50 pm   Post subject:    

nicki wrote:
Motorhead wrote:
DNA evidence and alibis are good, problem is there isn't enough to prove beyond doubt that they were involved.

If this case was occuring in the USA, it would've ended long ago with a Not guilty or something of that nature. That's why it's aggrivating that it continues on scant, or no evidence.


If you can prove it was them, i made a topic for people to prove it to me as if I am the judge/jury.


It's not up to you or me to decide, but to the court. I am not so naive to believe in the innocence/guilt of someone based on media-trumpeted stories, doesn't matter which side they come from. Nor it is my job to "prove" anything to anybody, I am poster, not a judge.

Defense claims evidence is scanty and prosecution claims it's strong-they're both doing the job they are paid for. The court and judges will decide who is right, they are surely better qualified than anybody else sitting thousand (or hundred) miles away. ;)

I agree that if the case was occurring in the USA it may have ended long ago with a not guilty, as it happened in OJ SImpson trial. So I rather prefer the cautious Italian approach. Everybody is entitled to his/her opinion, but in the end , the only opinion that will count is the judge's and juror's.


Cautious Italian approach? Police cheering during the arrest, botched evidence gathering and an over zealous and indicted prosecutor does not cautious make. OJ's trial is one example of millions. OJ was convicted in the court of public opinion exactly like Knox, but the prosecution couldn't make a better case than the defense. That's how law should work, some innocents are wrongly convicted and some possibly guilty are let go, but that's how it works.

None of the judges in this trial are impartial as a jury would be here, this taints their judgment from the start.
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Offline Fly by Night


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:09 pm

Posts: 1014

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:54 pm   Post subject: Breaking News: USA Has Best Court System in the World!!!   

Motorhead wrote:
None of the judges in this trial are impartial as a jury would be here, this taints their judgment from the start.


You've never been involved in a jury-based court case in the USA, have you Motorhead?
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Offline Motorhead


Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:37 am

Posts: 31

PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:55 pm   Post subject:    

steve.body wrote:
Okay, let's deal with this: Ted Bundy's history was rife with clues as to what he would later become. Velma Barfield showed signs of instability for two decades prior to her execution. Jeffrey Dahmer was a walking, talking advertisement for Future Serial Killer. In nearly EVERY court case involving a mueder as brutal as Karcher's, the perpetrator has shown a capacity for violence and SOME pattern of mental instability. There is NOTHING - NOT a SINGLE thing - in Amanda Knox's past that indicates even a shred of capacity for violence. No tortured Barbie dolls, no abused kittens, NOTHING.

I know Amanda's family. I know several of her friends. Her step-dad works ten feet from my wife. There is NO great ambiguity in Seattle as to the truth of these charges, NOT among the people who have known this family, even in passing, for their entire time in Seattle. Yeah, there are a lot of loud know-nothings - like you will find on EVERY online forum on the planet that deals with this murder - who are certain that they ABSOLUTELY KNOW what happened in that house. It's all crap. In 2009, there are millions of people who no longer distinguish between Belief and Truth. Truth is objective and unshakable. Belief is wildly objective and frequently completely irrational. And if you're one of those who don't make that distinction, your brilliant comments mean NOTHING. You can believe anything you like. Doesn't make it true.

I'm just dealing with what is LIKELY and what is too much of a stretch. Ask yourself this: If YOU were the one accused, what would YOU want people to think? How likely is it that a normal American kid, from a solid middle-class family, from old laid-back Seattle, who worked for several years to earn the money to realize her dream of school in Italy, and who has NEVER, even ONCE, shown the slightest whiff of instability or a propensity for violence, would go to Italy and suddenly become the sort of monster who would do this? If you're going to tell me that you find nothing unbelievable in this, I'm going to suggest you seek professional help, NOW.

This not not a game, It's not an academic exercise. It's a kid's entire future and it's being ruined, largely, by a self-important, egomaniacal, low-class, low-intelligence, corrupt prosecutor who wll very likely be in jail himself very shortly. The whole thing is a complete crock and if it passes your BS test, get your BS detector recalibrated ASAP.


You are 100% right here. The evidence does not add up to a guilty conviction, it's that simple when you get down to brass tacks. Furthermore, Italians seem to be so angry about this based on the media assassinating the girls characters. FOXY KNOXY HAD SEX WITH MEN DOES DRUGS BAD GIRL and all that.

The police originally said a pen knife or broken glass (not all glass from the window was found) could've killed her. Then now people say the knife found with multiple people's DNA is definetly the murder weapon. This is making my head spin.
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Offline Motorhead


Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:37 am

Posts: 31

PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:56 pm   Post subject: Re: Breaking News: USA Has Best Court System in the World!!!   

Fly by Night wrote:
Motorhead wrote:
None of the judges in this trial are impartial as a jury would be here, this taints their judgment from the start.


You've never been involved in a jury-based court case in the USA, have you Motorhead?


Yes I have, quite a few actually.
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Offline Jumpy


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:27 pm

Posts: 231

Location: US

PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:58 pm   Post subject:    

For some reason I get the feeling something is about to be announced this week. The PR campaign seems to be revving their engines. Perhaps Raffaele is getting ready to drive his bus over Amanda?
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