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VII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Feb 28 - April 09, 09

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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:53 pm   Post subject:    

I'm reliably informed that Mignini is an honest and decent man who cares about finding the truth about what happened to Meredith, so that the killers can be brought to justice and that Meredith's family can find some peace and closure. He has never implied that Meredith may have been involved in any "sex game" or is in any way responsible for the horrors that were inflicted upon on the night of the murder. Mignini is a deeply devout and religious man and I've been assured that any leaks would have never come from him.

10 judges have looked at the evidence and given their reasons for believing that there are serious indications of Knox's and Sollecito's guilt. The whole process has been painstakingly thorough and very transparent. There have been plenty of balances and checks to ensure that the legal process has been fair.

Meredith's family have expressed their full confidence in the Italian justice system.

The forensic investigation carried out Patrizia Stefanoni and her colleagues was independently verified by Dr. Renato Biondo, the head of the DNA Unit of the forensic police. The defence lawyers were informed of every development. Patrizia Stefanoni is an internationally renowned forensic scientist who specialises in identifying the victims of disasters. She helped identify the victims of the Tsunami. She's known for her excellence in her chosen field.

The claim that there is a huge, sinister conspiracy, involving all of the above, to frame two innocent people is nonsense and libellous. The prosecutors, the police officers and the forensic scientists have all been doing their best to ensure that justice is served. I believe that Meredith's brutal and senseless murder has brought out the very best in all those who have been involved in solving this crime.

Skeptical Bystander gave the posters on here some very valuable advice: whenever you're writing a post, imagine the Kerchers are standing over your shoulders and reading what you're writing. How do you think they would feel when they read that the people that they have publicly expressed their full confidence in are corrupt and part of a conspiracy to frame two innocent people?

There has been enough sneering comments about Mignini, the Italian police and Italy by Knox's supporters. I'm disappointed to read comments on here that give credence to their outrageous claims. I'm always going to be ironic when I read unsubstantiated claims that there is a huge, sinister conspiracy to frame Knox and Sollecito.

Meredith's family deserve to know the truth about what happened to their daughter. Knox and Sollecito lied repeatedly to the police when they were being questioned. The deputy prosecutor, Manuela Comodi, stated that there was no point questioning Knox and Sollecito because every time they were questioned during the pre-trial investigation they lied or tried to derail the inquiry. I'm always going to be ironic when I read comments that suggest there is an innocent explanation for their lies because there clearly isn't. Meredith's family suffer every single day of their lives and will always be traumatised by the murder of Meredith. They need to know the truth and Knox and Sollecito expressly denying them the truth, just adds to their suffering.

Some people on here have become a very precious. I was ironic about Guede flying through Filomena's window or scaling a vertical wall because such silly claims deserve such a response. Such comments are nothing new.


Last edited by The Machine on Thu Apr 09, 2009 1:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:56 pm   Post subject:    

Justlooking wrote:

Quote:
A useful point Michael and one I was already familiar with. It's just more senseless scare tactics, though in some ways I wish Frank did have IP access. I'd love to see the class action suits coming his way if he tried any form of legal intimidation.


I think it would be just fine if the comments page were left to the people who have made it what it is today. Nobody needs to give in to the intimidation, but why bother getting into a pig fight? It has been said before but I'll say it again: both parties just come out of it looking dirty, but the pig actually enjoys it.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:15 am   Post subject:    

TM wrote:

Quote:
Skeptical Bystander gave the posters on here some very valuable advice: whenever you're writing a post, imagine the Kerchers are standing over your shoulders and reading what you're writing. How do you think they would feel when they read that the people that they have publicly expressed their full confidence in are corrupt and part of a conspiracy to frame two innocent people?


Thanks for reminding us of that earlier post I made. I think it applies to content (subject matter) and tone. In my experience so far, when things enter into a lull -- as is the case now, with the trial set to resume a week from Friday -- there is a tendency to get into fights. Maybe it is due to a lack of fresh material to chew on. For people who are relatively new to the case, this would be a great time to read background material. This board is a great place to start.

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Offline Jumpy


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:27 pm

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:33 am   Post subject:    

This board has so much info including the translations, Kermit's Powerpoints, etc. Since we have time until the next hearing I highly recommend to anyone who hasn't had the chance going further back through the haloscans. It is time consuming but a very interresting read on the developments of this case as it has happened. You might even pick up some tidbits which have been forgotten and are crucial to this case.

:D
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Offline Jumpy


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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:27 pm

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:33 am   Post subject:    

woops Skep you beat me to it.

Cheers.
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Offline nicki

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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:27 am

Posts: 847

PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:47 am   Post subject:    

The Machine wrote:
I'm reliably informed that Mignini is an honest and decent man who cares about finding the truth about what happened to Meredith, so that the killers can be brought to justice and that Meredith's family can find some peace and closure. He has never implied that Meredith may have been involved in any "sex game" or is in any way responsible for the horrors that were inflicted upon on the night of the murder. Mignini is a deeply devout and religious man and I've been assured that any leaks would have never come from him.

10 judges have looked at the evidence and given their reasons for believing that there are serious indications of Knox's and Sollecito's guilt. The whole process has been painstakingly thorough and very transparent. There have been plenty of balances and checks to ensure that the legal process has been fair.

Meredith's family have expressed their full confidence in the Italian justice system.

The forensic investigation carried out Patrizia Stefanoni and her colleagues was independently verified by Dr. Renato Biondo, the head of the DNA Unit of the forensic police. The defence lawyers were informed of every development. Patrizia Stefanoni is an internationally renowned forensic scientis who specialises in identifying the victims of disasters. She helped identify the victims of the Tsunami. She's known for her excellence in her chosen field.

The claim that there is a huge, sinister conspiracy, involving all of the above, to frame two innocent people is nonsense and libellous. The prosecutors, the police officers and the forensic scientists have all been doing their best to ensure that justice is served. I believe that Meredith's brutal and senseless murder has brought out the very best in all those who have been involved in solving this crime.

Skeptical Bystander gave the posters on here some very valuable advice: whenever you're writing a post, imagine the Kerchers are standing over your shoulders and reading what you're writing. How do you think they would feel when they read that the people that they have publicly expressed their full confidence in are corrupt and part of a conspiracy to frame two innocent people?

There has been enough sneering comments about Mignini, the Italian police and Italy by Knox's supporters. I'm disappointed to read comments on here that give credence to their outrageous claims. I'm always going to be ironic when I read unsubstantiated claims that there is a huge, sinister conspiracy to frame Knox and Sollecito.

Meredith's family deserve to know the truth about what happened to their daughter. Knox and Sollecito lied repeatedly to the police when they were being questioned. The deputy prosecutor, Manuela Comodi, stated that there was no point questioning Knox and Sollecito because every time they were questioned during the pre-trial investigation they lied or tried to derail the inquiry. I'm always going to be ironic when I read comments that suggest there is an innocent explanation for their lies because there clearly isn't. Meredith's family suffer every single day of their lives and will always be traumatised by the murder of Meredith. They need to know the truth and Knox and Sollecito expressly denying them the truth, just adds to their suffering.

Some people on here have become a very precious. I was ironic about Guede flying through Filomena's window or scaling a vertical wall because such silly claims deserve such a response. Such comments are nothing new.


Hi TM,

As a long-time resident of Italy-23 years-, I am very pleased to read your post. This global conspiracy theory is fanciful to say the least and frankly, it has been deeply annoying just about everybody on this side of the Ocean. Mr Mignini is a prosecutor and his job is to prosecute suspects. Ak and RS have not been able to provide a sound alibi for the night of the murder, and their behavior immediately after the murder has attracted investigators' attention. Their odd behavior has been confirmed by many witnessess. Biological evidence is pointing at AK and RS presence on the crime scene. They would be standing trial in any country, not just in Italy. The Kerchers have repeatedly expressed their confidence in the Italian justice system: "How do you think they would feel when they read that the people that they have publicly expressed their full confidence in are corrupt and part of a conspiracy to frame two innocent people?" Very well said TM!

It may be difficult to understand for those who don't live here, but there has never been a fair and transparent trial in Italy like this one: the whole world is watching and if there's anything Italians hate more that "pasta scotta" is to "fare una brutta figura"-to look bad-. Rest assured that the two "piccioncini" will have the fairest trial ever seen in the history of the Italian Republic.
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Offline jodyodyo


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Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:02 am

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:50 am   Post subject: Patrick   

Looks like Patrick was awarded 8,000 euros (about $10,500) in damages.

Ex-suspect in Knox case given damages
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/l ... nox17.html
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:58 am   Post subject: Re: Patrick   

jodyodyo wrote:
Looks like Patrick was awarded 8,000 euros (about $10,500) in damages.

Ex-suspect in Knox case given damages
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/l ... nox17.html


This was initially published on March 17. Is there some reason it was reposted?

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Offline Jumpy


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 1:07 am   Post subject:    

Hi Nicki and TM, Thanks for your post.
It drives me crazy when people refuse to take any sort of responsibility and just throw out maniac excuse after another. This is a board and discussion is so important, but I am practical and realistic. No one gave a fuck about the two accused (and one convicted) before Meredith was killed. It is not a conspiracy to put them away. They are on trial for very specific reasons which in my opinion (IP this cmellas!) will be a long and difficult road, but one which leads to justice for Meredith. I for one cannot imagine giving so much breath to the scumbags accused.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 1:09 am   Post subject: Re: Patrick   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
jodyodyo wrote:
Looks like Patrick was awarded 8,000 euros (about $10,500) in damages.

Ex-suspect in Knox case given damages
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/l ... nox17.html


This was initially published on March 17. Is there some reason it was reposted?



Is it the appeal part that's new?

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 1:20 am   Post subject:    

Jumpy wrote:

Quote:
Hi Nicki and TM, Thanks for your post.
It drives me crazy when people refuse to take any sort of responsibility and just throw out maniac excuse after another. This is a board and discussion is so important, but I am practical and realistic. No one gave a fuck about the two accused (and one convicted) before Meredith was killed. It is not a conspiracy to put them away. They are on trial for very specific reasons which in my opinion (IP this cmellas!) will be a long and difficult road, but one which leads to justice for Meredith. I for one cannot imagine giving so much breath to the scumbags accused.


I think 99% of the people who post here agree with this statement. The other 1% is a conspiracy nut. Just kidding! :)

The point I want to make is that, if the post in question was Stewart Homes', then it did not say the Italians are incompetent and the investigation is a sham. It said that a journalist who supposedly has "inside information" made this statement to SH2000. SH2000 went on to poke fun at the guy and his statement, with a funny remark about Berlusconi and Prodi. One poster did not get the humor or spot the irony. It happens, people. SH2000 came back on the board to clarify his remark. End of story.

Let's be frank here. If I understand correctly, TM has some misgivings about Lancelotti, who seems to have joined this board recently in order to make very targeted statements that often seem intended to cast doubt on the prosecution's case but without providing anything more substantial to back them than outdated information or hearsay. Lancelotti is given clarifications each time, but I don't get the impression that is what he is seeking. He just keeps recycling his points. At least that's what it feels like. And it is annoying, insofar as it seems intended to sidetrack rather than contribute to a meaningful discussion. It feels kind of hostile.

In the meantime, over at Frank's blog someone keeps posting that Lancelotti is a troll or, worse yet, Goofy, the troll of all trolls. I have my own private thoughts about what Lancelotti is up to and where he is coming from, so to speak, but I'll keep them to myself.

So here's a question to Lancelotti: Is it true what "they" are saying about you on Frank's blog?

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Offline Jumpy


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 2:01 am   Post subject:    

Totallly Skep and you have more lovely patience and better wording than I can articulate. I love a great discussion, but sometimes I just get a little impatient. I take responsibility for this! :-)

ps. I'm thorry I used the "f" word.

pps. I was gonna lose it when I read the cottage was broken into again only to find some homeless fella in the shed. Who knows but I wouldn't want to be that guy right now. ppps. Does everyone think Raffaele's sister will lose her job regarding the investigation? What a family!
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Offline Jumpy


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 2:23 am   Post subject:    

Well I will go back to lurking but have one more point. When my friend died I didn't go to work (class) for at least a week. I didn't ask my mother to take me shopping. She had to watch me wailing into my pillow and she was frightened for me. I was frightened for the first time in my life. My childhood was over. I had horrible nightmares, and they continue albeit less for so long. I talked to the police and didn't give false alibis. I was with my friend that night. I had nothing to hide, and only was able to help as much as I could. I dropped so much weight (no pizza dinners for me) and just could not understand. I wasn't happy to relate to anyone about the suffering a most beloved friend might have endured, as I could not bring myself to those words or thoughts. The man who killed her was a site in the courtroom. He laughed to my face. He blamed the police investigation. It isn't right the way Sollecito, Guede and Knox have been. And there is a reason, in my opinion.
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Offline Lancelotti


Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:09 pm

Posts: 378

PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:36 am   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Let's be frank here. If I understand correctly, TM has some misgivings about Lancelotti, who seems to have joined this board recently in order to make very targeted statements that often seem intended to cast doubt on the prosecution's case but without providing anything more substantial to back them than outdated information or hearsay. Lancelotti is given clarifications each time, but I don't get the impression that is what he is seeking. He just keeps recycling his points. At least that's what it feels like. And it is annoying, insofar as it seems intended to sidetrack rather than contribute to a meaningful discussion. It feels kind of hostile.


The prosecution is presenting its case at the moment. It doesn’t sound particularly convincing to me. That’s why I have lots of questions. I haven’t made my mind up yet. What I see here is people repeating whatever the prosecution is saying without (much) questioning. Well, that’s good for me as I am looking for answers but that’s not how I want to go about it myself. I certainly want to hear (and question!) the defence’s case as well. But that's just me.

Quote:
In the meantime, over at Frank's blog someone keeps posting that Lancelotti is a troll or, worse yet, Goofy, the troll of all trolls. I have my own private thoughts about what Lancelotti is up to and where he is coming from, so to speak, but I'll keep them to myself.

So here's a question to Lancelotti: Is it true what "they" are saying about you on Frank's blog?


Hilarious….but No


Miss Lancelotti
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Offline The Bard


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:17 am   Post subject:    

Yes, and let's just remember that no-one has the monopoly on moral outrage. We're all batting for the same side here if I am not mistaken! I guess everyone has their own personal ways of doing it.

Just been to look at Frank's blog to see what all the comments were about. Maaaaaan...there are some very, very sick posts going on over there. It is like a cess pit isn't it!

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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:42 am   Post subject:    

Lancelotti wrote:
The prosecution is presenting its case at the moment. It doesn’t sound particularly convincing to me. That’s why I have lots of questions. I haven’t made my mind up yet. What I see here is people repeating whatever the prosecution is saying without (much) questioning. Well, that’s good for me as I am looking for answers but that’s not how I want to go about it myself. I certainly want to hear (and question!) the defence’s case as well. But that's just me.


Which aspects of the prosection's case do you find unconvincing?

Amanda Knox's DNA on handle of the double DNA knife and Meredith's DNA on the blade?

Knox’s footprint set in Meredith’s blood in the hallway outside Meredith’s room?

The woman’s bloody shoe print that matched Knox’s foot size, which was found on a pillow underneath Meredith’s body.

The mixed traces of Knox’s DNA and Meredith’s blood on the fixtures in the bathroom the girls shared?

The three sets of different sized bloody footprints that matched the foot sizes of Knox, Sollecito and Guede at the crime scene?

The fact that Sollecito left an abundant amount of his DNA on Meredith’s bra clasp?

The fact that medical experts, Vincenza Liviero and Luca Lalli, stated that they believed that Meredith was attacked by more than one person?

I'll outline some the defence arguments that I find unconvincing?

It's possible for Knox and Sollecito to be at two places at once e.g. Knox at Sollecito's apartment all evening and at the cottage on the night of the murder, and Sollecito at a friend's party with Knox and at his apartment with/without Knox.

They both suffered from cannabis-induced amnesia, which meant they couldn't remember very much about that evening.

Knox doing the bathmat shuffle in apparent attempt to explain away the missing bloody footprints that were only revealed by luminol.

Knox having a shower in a blood-spattered bathroom and not phoning the police immediately.

Sollecito accidentally pricking Meredith's hand whilst cooking despite the fact that Meredith had never been to his apartment.

Sollecito claiming he surfed the Internet from 11pm to 1 am when the computer experts found no sign of human activity on his computer from 9.10pm to 5.32am.

Knox miracuously regaining her memory after she had been visited by a nun.

Sollecito having a leak in his kitchen on 1 November, which meant that they had to fetch the bucket and mop from the cottage on Via Della Pergola.

The argument that numerous witnesses: the postal police, officers from the Perugia Flying Squad, the Murder Squad, the Narcotis Squad, the police interepreters, Meredith's English friends and the Italian hosemates are all lying and Knox, who is a compulsive liar, is telling the truth.

The argument that all people who have been involved in the case: Judge Claudia Matteini, the judges at the Italian Supreme Court, Judge Massimo Riccarelli, and Judge Paolo Micheli, all the police officers from the postal police, the Perugia Flying Squad, the Murder Squad, the Narcotics Squad, the forensic police and the police interpreters, and all the lawyers, and the prosecutors know that Knox and Sollecito are innocent and are part of a huge conspiracy to frame Knox and Sollecito.

The argument that Guede scaled a vertical wall to gain entry through Filomena's window.

I’d appreciate it if you would address some of the points that I have raised.
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Offline nowo


Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 12:35 pm

Posts: 186

PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:30 pm   Post subject:    

Hi Lanceloti, you say “The prosecution is presenting its case at the moment. It doesn’t sound particularly convincing to me”. Maybe if you put “thus far” on the end it would spare you some flak (maybe not!). Very soon the prosecution will be presenting the evidence pointing to the defendants’ presence at the scene. Up to now (speaking purely in terms of space and time) the prosecutors have sought to take them out of RS’s place and put them in and around the cottage at the appropriate time(s). The next step is to put them in there at the heart of the crime. From what we already know, I for one have no doubt that they will do so (I don’t think we’ll be hearing the phrase ‘reasonable doubt’ too often).

I would be interested to know at which point you discern the prosecutors have a viable case, if, that is, you ever do!
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:42 pm   Post subject: ADMINISTRATOR NOTE - LOCKING THREAD   

:!: Administrator Note:


I am now locking this thread. Discussion will now continue in the new main discussion thread: VIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, April 09 -

Thank You

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THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 2:17 pm   Post subject:    

Lancelotti wrote:

Quote:
The prosecution is presenting its case at the moment. It doesn’t sound particularly convincing to me. That’s why I have lots of questions. I haven’t made my mind up yet. What I see here is people repeating whatever the prosecution is saying without (much) questioning. Well, that’s good for me as I am looking for answers but that’s not how I want to go about it myself. I certainly want to hear (and question!) the defence’s case as well. But that's just me.



Then you are reading with tainted glasses. People here question everything. You may have read elsewhere that we are pro-prosecution, but that is propaganda put out by others. Propaganda is a strong word, and I don't use it lightly. In any case, your portrayal of this board is wrong and negative. For one thing, we are not a monolithic entity, but rather several different voices. People's views have changed over time.

Your hostility shows in your tone. It is possible to be skeptical and questioning and remain respectful (Bolint comes to mind). I would appreciate it if you played by the rules. What I mean by that is encapsulated in my post from yesterday. Start with the evidence or the media source, instead of with a vague statement that contradicts the latest facts, finally backed (when you are asked what your source is) by an outdated report or by a text that doesn't say what you claim. In other words, be as careful as others are. You will see; when people aren't I tell them.

Your approach so far reminds me of that of someone who spent months here antagonizing people, to such an extent that any valid points she made were lost.

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