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VII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Feb 28 - April 09, 09

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 10:24 pm   Post subject: VII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Feb 28 - April 09, 09   

VII. MAIN DISCUSSION, Feb 28 - April 09, 09






This is the main discussion thread regarding the achievement of truth and justice for Meredith Kercher and her family. Meredith, barely 21 years old, was brutally murdered in her own home on the 1st November 2007 whilst studying in Perugia, Italy.

To read the previous main discussion thread, please view VI. MAIN DISCUSSION, Jan 1 - Feb 28, 09

Michael (Co-Administrator/Moderator of Perugia Murder File)

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THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Last edited by Michael on Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:45 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 10:53 pm   Post subject: Manga   

For those members living in the UK who have Sky, Freeview or cable, on Film4 at 11 pm (about ten minutes from this posting), there is a Manga based horror film, which may be worth watching for those wanting to get a feel for what adult Manga is all about:


22:55 - 01:20
Death Note

(2006) Shusuke Kaneko's manga-based horror in which a law student acquires a notebook into which, if he writes a wrongdoer's name, that person dies.

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"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Last edited by Michael on Sat Feb 28, 2009 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 10:54 pm   Post subject:    

Meanwhile Fiorenza Sarzanini still doing the promo of her book -Amanda and the others- Today she was at a hotel in Perugia presenting it.

http://tinyurl.com/d564x6
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Offline anne


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:09 pm   Post subject:    

Professor Snape wrote:

Unforgivable curses!

Professor Snape


Now now, Veritaserum will do :D
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Offline Fly by Night


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:35 pm   Post subject: Railroad Job From Hell   

Hey, has anyone heard anything on the Railroad Job From Hell? It was due in the station today at 0700 but was a no-show. It is now listed as missing with Paul Ciolino, Anne Bremner, Joe Tacopina and others on board - hope everything is OK.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 12:11 am   Post subject: Let's Get This Straight   

Frank Sfarzo wrote:
The evening of the 5th she calls Raffaele for an interview. He finishes his dinner with Amanda and shows up at 22.15. With Amanda too. The pair is literaly building their own arrest. While Raffaele is under interrogation Amanda starts exercising in the corridor (according to Monica). In the middle of the interview Kinky Monica comes out of the room to announce the others that Raffaele isn't defending Amanda anymore. It's the start of the end, the lovebirds have almost completed their unconscious project of being thrown to jail.
In the meantime Amanda is fed and taken care (according to Monica). But then, at 3:30 it will be her turn to be interviewed. That's what happens when you go uninvited to such lounges.
The disaster will be completed at 5:45 with the dancer in tears and accepting to accuse Patrick. And, indirectly, herself.



PERUGIA SHOCK


Alright, I'm a little confused here about times. Frank puts Raffaele going to the polce station at 22:15, yet according to news reports, Napoleoni saw Amanda doing cartwheels in the station at 11 am. It would seem more logical to me that Frank is actually right and the press has mistaken 11 pm for 11 am. Certainly, if Raffaele had arrived at the station at 10:15 in the morning, he wouldn't have been having dinner before going.

Whilst Frank makes no mention of the the interview of Amanda concluded at 1:45 am, we know it happened as this interview was specifically referred to in the judgement by the Cassazione. So, we can conclude that 3:30 was in fact the commencement of Amanda's sceond interview (the spontaneous statement, an interview 'she' asked for) that concluded at 5:45 am. Therefore, the was a break of 1 hour and 45 minutes between the two interviews. So much for being intorrogated throughout the night without a break.

There's more. We already knew that Amanda was on the phone from the station at 22:29, so the first interview could not have begun until 22:30 at the very earliest. However, once we add the correction of Napoleoni's testomony, that Amanda was doing cartwheels in the corridor at 23:00, we now also know that the first interview couldn't have started until some point post 23:00. That shortens the possible length of Amanda's first interview, where she first accused Patrick, even further.

Then, there's the whole matter of food and refreshment. Raffaele and Amanda had had dinner together just before leaving for the station. Well, she'd eaten then. Most people have a meal at night and then another the next morning...she'd had her meal. Why should the police have been expected to feed her AGAIN that night? As it was, she was given cakes from the vending machine. She was also told she could leave...so there was nothing stopping her going out to grab a bite if she didn't fancy the cakes. Still, acording to the police she scoffed them anyway, the little piglet, but who gets given a mean in the middle of the night? So....all this fuss we have been hearing from the Knox Camp has been lies and misdirection all to build up this fake image of victimhood and to put Amanda up on a cross.

This leads me to another thought...before going to the station, they could have grabbed a snack instead of having dinner and gone to Meredith's memorial ceremony in Perugia that evening...but they didn't. Amanda in fact ciould have gone on her own, she didn't have to go down the police station at all. They never went. Not because they couldn't as they were down the police station, but because they didn't want to go. But then, Amanda wouldn't have been the superstar at 'that' show.

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"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 12:17 am   Post subject: Corriere Dell'Umbria   

From the CU - A whole raft of stories. I'll post the Italian before they disappear to make room for todays evidence:

Rudy: “Farò scena muta fino all’appello”.

La presa di posizione L’ivoriano lo ha dichiarato a un settimanale.
Rudy Guede è una sorta di convitato di pietra nell’aula degli Affreschi. La sua presenza è immanente. Ieri però ha fatto davvero irruzione. Un settimanale (Visto), in un articolo a firma di Giangavino Sulas, riporta una sua dichiarazione che, nella parte più significativa da un punto di vista del delicato caso giudiziario, recita: “Farò scena muta fino all’appello, anche se potrei dire cose pesanti sui due imputati. Ma non ha senso buttare del fango, se prima non salvo me stesso”. In parole povere il pensiero di Rudy - se è stato riportato fedelmente - è che nell’attuale processo di corte d’assise, dove è stato citato come testimone, si avvarrà della facoltà di non rispondere. Lui ha fornito anche una giustificazione aggiuntiva per spiegare il suo silenzio: “Nessuno mi crede e poi il gip, nella motivazione della sentenza (quella con la quale è stato condannato, nel giudizio abbreviato, a trenta anni di reclusione, ndr) mi ha dato del bugiardo patentato”. Dunque Rudy intende mantenere il “segreto” su quello che sostiene di aver visto e sentito la notte del delitto (lo scontro con l’assassino davanti a Meredith agonizzante), sulla sua ricostruzione dei fatti. Gli servirà a qualcosa questo silenzio? Probabilmente lo renderà ancor meno credibile davanti ai giudici dell’appello che dovranno affrontare il suo caso. Sostituito un giudice Il primo adempimento della corte d’assise, ieri mattina, è stato quello di sostituire un giudice popolare - Angelico Evangelisti - che colpito da un attacco di febbre alta ha mandato un certificato. A quel punto al presidente Giancarlo Massei (a latere Beatrice Cristiani) non è rimasto altro che sostituirlo, in maniera definitiva. Nuovo giudice è stato nominato Giuliano Menichetti, che, come aggiunto, aveva seguito tutte le udienze. Il pagamento dell’interprete Il secondo adempimento è stato quello di liquidare le spettanze dell’interprete Isabella Preziosi, che nell’udienza relativa alle sette ragazze inglesi aveva dato il suo contributo per tutta la giornata e che ha avuto anche il compito della traduzione di un documento. Lavoro che la corte ha definito “delicato e complesso”




Il clan Sollecito sempre in aula.

Presenti la matrigna Mara, lo zio e la cugina del giovane pugliese.
Anche stavolta in aula Raffaele non è solo. A sostenerlo il clan Sollecito che cresce numericamente di seduta in seduta. A prendere parte all’udienza di ieri è tornata ancora una volta la matrigna Mara Sollecito. Con lei lo zio di Lele, Giuseppe, accompagnato stavolta dalla giovanissima figlia Annamaria. A metà mattinata, da lontano, divisi dalle guardie, i Sollecito si sono dovuti accontentare di un saluto e un sorriso con Raffaele che è rimasto serio e attento per tutta la durata dell’udienza. Per il resto, stesso canovaccio. Il clan Sollecito continua per la sua strada. Resta unito e saldo nella volontà ferrea di dimostrare l’innocenza di Raffaele anche attraverso, per così dire, una sorta di “indagine parallela”. Mara (ma lo stesso fa anche Curt Knox seduto poco distante) anche ieri ha continuato a prendere appunti e con la nipote adolescente e il cognato ha commentato e confutato le fasi del dibattimento salutando di tanto in tanto con cenni di consenso una coppia misteriosa seduta tra il pubblico. Ma dell’innocenza di Raffaele sembrano fermamente convinte anche le tante fans del giovane informatico pugliese che continuano a scrivere e mandare e mail assieme agli amici di Giovinazzo. Quel volto da ragazzo per bene convince anche qualche madre di famiglia. Certo, pensano, è finito in questo guai ma lui non c’entra. Tutta colpa di Amanda, l’americanina senza inibizioni



In aula i fumetti “porno-horror” Amanda fece la spaccata in questura.

Accusa e difesa si affrontano senza esclusione di colpi, anche a sorpresa.
Un poliziotto “deviato” cerca un serial killer che fa a pezzi belle donne. Compresa la sua ragazza. Ma poi scopre che anche lui ha comportamenti psicopatologici, con tanto di doppia personalità: è la storia di Yosuke Kobayashi, il protagonista di Mpd Psyco, manga (fumetto) giapponese definito ieri in aula “porno-horror”. Ne sono stati sequestrati diversi in casa di Raffaele Sollecito. Marco Chiacchiera, vice capo della mobile, li notò assieme agli altri ispettori nella perquisizione della casa (la stessa in cui venne trovato il coltello) e li sequestrò ritenendoli “materiale indiziario”. Assieme ad altri cento fumetti e libri, ha ribattuto la difesa. Il pubblico ministero Manuela Comodi, non ha fatto obiezioni verbali, bensì fattuali: colpo di scena, i volumetti sono stati prodotti materialmente. E sono stati mostrati alla corte, alle difese, ai pm. Lo stesso Raffaele li ha sfogliati, assieme a Giulia Bongiorno. E alla vista della serie completa di “Urotsukidoji”, manga scritto e disegnato da Toshio Maeda, anche la presidente della commissione giustizia della Camera è sbiancata. Falli, scene di sesso, stupri, con demoni che violentano ragazzine. “La fama collegata ad Urotsukidoji - è scritto nella recensione del sito specializzato www.mangadb.it - deriva infatti dal fatto è stato il capostipite del filone delle ‘ragazzine stuprate da mostri’, portato poi avanti negli anni nei modi più disparati”. Akirafudo il nick name di Raffaele (il personaggio dell’hentay - cartoon - sempre made in Japan altrimenti noto come Devilman), Trigun alias di Rudy, storie che si intrecciano, che per molti media e forse anche per gli investigatori potrebbero fare da sfondo al delitto. C’è di contro che la cultura manga ha attecchito bene anche nella nostra penisola. A ben vedere niente di illegale, di perverso o deviato. Fenomeno di costume (azzardato dire di cultura). Coincidenze, morbosità, basso ventre. Ma il capo d’accusa parla di festino a sfondo sessuale, di strani giochi. C’è il vasetto di vaselina (consumato) sulla scena del crimine. Poi il racconto vergato da Amanda su “myspace” (prima dei fatti) sulla studentessa violentata e uccisa da una lama. Le suggestioni si sovrappongono agli indizi. Colpi di teatro rendono il dibattimento ancor più mediatico: sempre ieri i pm hanno anticipato la Bongiorno portando il sasso dell’effrazione in aula. E ancora: “Amanda prima di essere interrogata faceva la ruota e la spaccata in questura”, ha raccontato il sostituto commissario Napoleoni. Curt Knox, il padre dell’imputata, la vede così: “In questo processo ci sono solo ‘percezioni’ di come la gente vede Amanda, solo ipotesi di come avrebbe dovuto reagire davanti a certi fatti. Non prove, ma tante contraddizioni nell’indagine”

Alessandro Antonini




Oggi pomeriggio la presentazione del libro della Sarzanini.

All’hotel La Rosetta.
Oggi pomeriggio alle 17,30 nel salone delle conferenze dell’hotel La Rosetta verrà presentato il libro di Fiorenza Sarzanini, giornalista del Corriere della Sera, dal titolo “Amanda e gli altri. Vite perdute intorno al delitto di Perugia”. Interverranno, oltre all’autrice, Massimo Montebove e Giuseppe Moscati. Moderatore del dibattito sarà il direttore del Corriere dell’Umbria, Anna Mossuto. Il libro ripercorre tutti gli atti del processo, raccontando la storia di uno dei delitti di maggior impatto mediatico degli ultimi anni. La cifra del libro è quella di cercare delle soluzioni, di arrivare alla verità prima dei giudici. Tutto è documentato, appunto, attraverso gli atti dell’inchiesta, che vengono proposti in maniera completa e ricca di particolari, così da delineare un quadro esaustivo degli scenari che hanno fatto da sfondo all’intera vicenda



Corriere Dell'Umbria
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 12:37 am   Post subject: FOA   

Paul Harris of The Guardian goes to meet the FOA in Seattle: The friends back home intent on telling the 'real Amanda Knox' story

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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 12:49 am   Post subject:    

I've think I've read most of what's been said today about ill treatment and 14 hour interviews.

I really don't think this will fly with the Judges.

The pair ate before they went to the police station.

Amanda didn't even have to go. She chose to accompany Raffaele and she was even offered the oppotunity to go home.

Raffaele was interviewed for an hour or two. He withdrew his alibi from Amanda and asked to call his father. He claims this request was refused. They took his shoes and wouldn't tell him why.

Amanda appears to have been interviewed twice. Each time for an hour or so. They told her Raffaele had withdrawn his alibi and asked to examine her mobile phone. A message from Patrick showed up and they asked Amanda who had sent it. She was fed and watered but she claims they only gave her breakfast after she had given her statement.

The defences haven't added much to this summary even to the press outside court.

If I were a judge, I don't think I would regard any of this as ill treatment.

These were suspects being interviewed in a murder enquiry.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 12:56 am   Post subject:    

Michael posted:

Quote:
Paul Harris of The Guardian goes to meet the FOA in Seattle: The friends back home intent on telling the 'real Amanda Knox' story


I believe he writes for The Independent.
It is interesting that he was able to talk to Steve Shay, whereas Julian Joyce of the BBC was denied access.

It looks as if the notion of victimization has spread to the FOA itself.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 1:02 am   Post subject: Hypocrisy   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Michael posted:

Quote:
Paul Harris of The Guardian goes to meet the FOA in Seattle: The friends back home intent on telling the 'real Amanda Knox' story


I believe he writes for The Independent.
It is interesting that he was able to talk to Steve Shay, whereas Julian Joyce of the BBC was denied access.

It looks as if the notion of victimization has spread to the FOA itself.



It's this line from the article that got me Skep:


The Guardian wrote:
The focus on Knox has completely overshadowed the suffering of the young woman whose life was so cruelly cut short: Meredith Kercher. "Knox should never have been the centre of the trial. The person who died should have been the real story," said Dempsey.



The sheer hypocrisy of that statement by Candace is unbelievable. Did she keep a straight face and look him right in the eye when she said it? Amanda Knox has always been CENTRAL to Candace's blogs and focus. Meredith, for her, has always taken a back seat, merely paid lip service to every now and again for appearances sake.

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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 1:17 am   Post subject:    

A woman's bloody shoe print found under the body of the murdered British student Meredith Kercher was of a size compatible with her American flatmate Amanda Knox, a Perugia court was told yesterday. Defence lawyers in the murder trial acknowledged that it was the first piece of evidence that might link the American student to the crime scene, but denied flatly that the print was hers.

Rita Ficarra, told the court...on the night of 5 November 2007, Ms Knox had come to the police station with Mr Sollecito, who had been called in for another interrogation.

Ms Ficarra said she came out of the lift into the waiting room of the city's Flying Squad at 11pm to find the student "showing off her gymnastic ability". "I told her off," said the officer. "I told her it was neither the time or place" for such things. She said she also rebuked Ms Knox later for telling the police lies in earlier interviews, for example denying that she smoked cannabis. "She was treated with severity when the circumstances demanded and kindly when they demanded it," she said, denying Ms Knox had been beaten.

Subsequently Ms Knox gave Ms Ficarra the names of people who had visited the flat she shared with Ms Kercher, including "a South African" she had met at a party in the flat underneath the one she shared with Ms Kercher. She said she didn't know his name or phone number and had never seen him again after that occasion. Ms Ficarra indicated that this person was Rudy Guede, originally from Ivory Coast, who is now serving a 30-year sentence for his role in the murder.

Ms Ficarra learnt that Mr Sollecito had changed his original story, according to which he and Ms Knox had spent the night together. As a result, Ms Knox's alibi had evaporated. Ms Ficarra and Ms Knox went through Ms Knox's mobile phone, finding a sent SMS message that read: "See you later." "It sounded like a date," Ms Ficarra said. "Who is this person?" she asked Ms Knox. "Did you go out with him?"...Ms Knox gave her the name of Patrick Lumumba...adding that the student clutched her head and burst into tears when she was accused of being the "author of the crime", admitting that she was in the house at the time of the murder. "She said it was Lumumba who killed Meredith,


Peter Popham at The Independent
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 1:27 am   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Michael posted:

Quote:
Paul Harris of The Guardian goes to meet the FOA in Seattle: The friends back home intent on telling the 'real Amanda Knox' story


I believe he writes for The Independent.
It is interesting that he was able to talk to Steve Shay, whereas Julian Joyce of the BBC was denied access.

It looks as if the notion of victimization has spread to the FOA itself.


Nah, He writes for the Guardian and I think he's US based.

All his stories are from the US - See here
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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 1:44 am   Post subject: ANDREA VOGT, SATURDAY UPDATE   

Here's a new report from ANDREA VOGT for the Seattle PI. There is alot of information to process - I've got to go back and read it again, but wanted to get the link up:

ANDREA VOGT SEATTLE PI
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 1:53 am   Post subject:    

From Tara's link to Andrea Vogt:

Police reported finding an unmatched bloody shoeprint under Kercher's body, which though unmatched did correspond generally to Knox's shoe size and tended to dominate news coverage out of the trial Saturday. Few media remained in the courtroom for Sollecito and Knox's spontaneous rebuttals to police testimony made later in the proceedings...

I think the "bloody" footprints have it.

I think it is also a BIG problem for Amanda.
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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 1:55 am   Post subject: Snapshot of articles for 28 Feb 2009   

28 Feb 2009 Report Highlights

[hr]
Covering YESTERDAY 27 Feb 2009


Summary of tail-end of previous day

– 4kg (10lb) rock
– 36 signatures
– protective wear when in the murder room
[ ASCA ]

Monica Napoleoni
-- “She was butchered”
– news of the murder went out overseas
– Amanda’s cartwheels and splits in the corridors were a surprise

Marco Chiacchiera
– saw MK’s neck wound from the hallway
– understood what type of knife would do that
– the “on” and “off” of phones that night were determined how?: based on user habits
– (later Postal Police experts will testify on more technical matters regarding AK&RS phones and RS computer)

On the break-in at the cottage
– the piece of paper, “biglietto da visita”, is not Laura’s
– the hypothesis is: it was accidentally left behind
– it may not even be directly connected to those who broke in
[ 24Ore ]

The bra clasp and “contamination”
[ Messaggero ]



[hr]
Covering TODAY 28 Feb 2009

Summary - a few paragraphs each
[ SARDA ]
[ Corriere della Sera ]

On the concept of cross-examination
[ Messaggero ]

The rock is evidence
[ Messaggero ]

Spontaneous declarations
AK & RS
[ TGCOM ] a few quotes
[ ANSA ] very brief summary, one quote each
[ AFFARI ] many quotes

RS
[ LIBERO ] start of article
[ 24Ore ] details
AK
[ LIBERO ] mention of stentato italiano, not naturally flowing, newspapers translating this as "uncertain Italian"


Rita Ficcara

-- Amanda’s statement “a present”, a few hours after having said it was Lumumba
– evening of 5th:
–– Amanda came because her boyfriend had been called for an interview
–– she was in the antechamber (near the lift door) showing off her gymnastics: the bridge, the splits, cartwheel
– she started crying when asked about Lumumba in reference to an SMS
– 6th Nov, around noon:
-– when shown English version of arrest warrant, asked for pen and paper
–- asked me to read it before I took her to prison because she wanted me be clear about happened
– treated firmly but kindly

Monica Napoleoni
– on the pillow, under the victim, there was a woman’s shoe print, size 36-38, unattributed

[ 24Ore ] , [ LIBERO ]
And
[ 24Ore ] more details
[ AGI ] adds detail of RF fetching the phone and AK scrolling through the messages to Lumumba’s SMS, then: “It was him!”


Outside court
Interview with Patrick Lumumba
[ Messaggero ]


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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:00 am   Post subject: Re: ANDREA VOGT, SATURDAY UPDATE   

Tara wrote:
Here's a new report from ANDREA VOGT for the Seattle PI. There is alot of information to process - I've got to go back and read it again, but wanted to get the link up:

ANDREA VOGT SEATTLE PI


Hi Tara,

Thanks for the link. These two paragraphs contain new information:

Armando Finzi, an assistant in the Perugia police department's organized crimes unit, first discovered the knife in Sollecito's kitchen drawer. He said the first thing he noticed upon entering the place was a "strong smell of bleach ." He opened the drawer and saw "very shiny and clean" knife lying on top of the silverware tray.

"It was the first knife I saw," he said. When pressed on cross-examination, said his "investigative intuition" led him to believe it was the murder weapon because it was compatible with the wound as it had been described to him. With gloved hands, he placed the knife in a new police envelope, taped it shut with Scotch tape, then placed it inside a folder, he said. There were smaller and bigger knives in the drawer, but no others were taken into evidence from the kitchen, he said. A small knife was taken into evidence from Sollecito's bedroom, along with other items.


Armando Finizi testified that the first thing he noticed when he entered Sollecito's apartment was the strong smell of bleach. Bleach has an unmistakeable smell. It's significant that Finizi could still smell bleach a few days after the double DNA knife had been cleaned.

I can see why Judge Paolo Micheli excluded the possibility that the double DNA knife had been contaminated. The knife was placed in a police envelope and then placed inside a folder. Frank Sfarzo didn't mention that fact in any of his pieces.
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:05 am   Post subject:    

The story of Knox's interview according to Andrea Vogt:

Sollecito was asked to come to headquarters on November 5 and arrived at police headquarters around 11 p.m. Knox came with Sollecito that night even though she had not been asked to come...They were always together, Napoleoni said, and did not want to be separated. While police questioned Sollecito, Knox waited in a side room where policewoman Lorena Zugarini, also present at Knox's questioning, said she saw Knox doing a cartwheel and the splits. Zugarini said she told Knox it was "not the right place" for such activities.

Inspector Rita Ficarra from the Perugia police narcotics unit then began questioning Knox, with Napoleoni checking in occasionally to inform officers of the comments Sollecito was making in the other room. Knox was asked about a lawyer, Ficarra said, but did not have one. Knox was treated seriously, Ficarra said during cross-examination, but never mistreated.

"Raffaele had not given her an alibi, so I asked her about those contradictions," Ficarra said. "I told her if you tell me a lie one time, that is comprehensible, but if you lie again--even if it is a small lie-- it makes you less credible."

As the night wore on, Ficarra said, Knox eventually broke down crying when questioned about the last activity on her cell phone that night. Of initial interest to police was a text message Knox sent to Patrick Lumumba, a Congolese nightclub owner for whom she worked, saying she would see him later.

"When I showed her the message she put her head in her hands, started shaking her head, and started crying," Ficarra said. "She said, 'It was him. It was him. He was crazy.'"

When Knox initially said she been at the scene of the crime, Ficarra said the questioning on that evening was suspended as is prescribed by Italian law and the prosecutor was called. Knox then asked for a pen and paper, which investigators gave her. She wrote a rambling five-page statement saying she was confused, but recalled seeing Lumumba at the apartment. "I saw myself cowering in the kitchen with my hands over my ears because in my head I could hear Meredith screaming," she wrote in the letter, a copy of which was obtained by the P-I. "I know I didn't kill Meredith. That's all I know for sure."



and you gotta love this:

Lumumba's lawyer, Carlo Pacelli, asked a series of detailed questions about Knox's treatment during the questioning.

"Was she ever hit, punched, slapped or threatened in any way?"

"Absolutely not," said Ficarra.

He then rephrased the same question, prompting the judge to ask what the point was.

"The point is that the Perugia Police Department is not Guantanamo," he said, continuing. "So everything she had said had been offered on her own free will?"

"Yes. I let her rest. I took her down to get some breakfast at the caffeteria. No one ever treated her badly," Ficarra said.
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:24 am   Post subject: Re: ANDREA VOGT, SATURDAY UPDATE   

The Machine wrote:
Tara wrote:
Here's a new report from ANDREA VOGT for the Seattle PI. There is alot of information to process - I've got to go back and read it again, but wanted to get the link up:

ANDREA VOGT SEATTLE PI


Hi Tara,

Thanks for the link. These two paragraphs contain new information:

Armando Finzi, an assistant in the Perugia police department's organized crimes unit, first discovered the knife in Sollecito's kitchen drawer. He said the first thing he noticed upon entering the place was a "strong smell of bleach ." He opened the drawer and saw "very shiny and clean" knife lying on top of the silverware tray.

"It was the first knife I saw," he said. When pressed on cross-examination, said his "investigative intuition" led him to believe it was the murder weapon because it was compatible with the wound as it had been described to him. With gloved hands, he placed the knife in a new police envelope, taped it shut with Scotch tape, then placed it inside a folder, he said. There were smaller and bigger knives in the drawer, but no others were taken into evidence from the kitchen, he said. A small knife was taken into evidence from Sollecito's bedroom, along with other items.


Armando Finizi testified that the first thing he noticed when he entered Sollecito's apartment was the strong smell of bleach. Bleach has an unmistakeable smell. It's significant that Finizi could still smell bleach a few days after the double DNA knife had been cleaned.

I can see why Judge Paolo Micheli excluded the possibility that the double DNA knife had been contaminated. The knife was placed in a police envelope and then placed inside a folder. Frank Sfarzo didn't mention that fact in any of his pieces.



The "shirt box" explained:

Homicide unit captain Stefano Gubbiotti then testified later at police headquarters he took the knife out of the envelope (also while wearing gloves) and placed it in a cardboard box he had in his office before it would be sent to Rome for forensic analysis.

"It was a box that had come with my agenda calendar," Gubbiotti said when asked to describe the box further, noting that it was from the Italian designer Renato Balestra. That box was then placed in another box for transport to Rome.
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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:43 am   Post subject: Hangin' out   

Michael wrote;
Quote:
This leads me to another thought...before going to the station, they could have grabbed a snack instead of having dinner and gone to Meredith's memorial ceremony in Perugia that evening...but they didn't. Amanda in fact ciould have gone on her own, she didn't have to go down the police station at all. They never went. Not because they couldn't as they were down the police station, but because they didn't want to go. But then, Amanda wouldn't have been the superstar at 'that' show.


From Andrea Vogt:
Quote:
In a show of defense solidarity, the two spoke one after the other in response to testimony from the head of the homicide unit and the policewoman who questioned the 21-year-old Seattle woman from midnight until 5:45 a.m. the morning of November 6, 2007.


We've talked about why Knox & Sollecito didn't attend Meredith's vigil, and I guess I've always given the benefit of the doubt that they were busy at the police station, and were "stuck" and couldn't leave.

Since Meredith's candlelight vigil started at 8:00pm on November 5, 2007, and Sollecito went to the police station at 11:00pm, and Knox's questioning didn't begin until midnight do we dare think that the two were just "too busy" to attend? Did they have something more important to do before going to see the police, like cleaning Sol's place?

While many, many people were mourning Meredith's death in the very public area of Perugia, what the heck were these two doing? Having a pizza? I think not.

The smell of bleach hangs around for a day or so, but then grows faint. I think they were on a cleaning rampage Monday, and that's why the bleach smell was so strong when Sollectito's place was searched on November 6th.


***EDITED TO ADD: We can't forget that Knox attended classes Monday where she completed her assignment in class to write a letter to "anyone". She chose to write to her mother and told her she wanted Edda to take her shopping.


Last edited by Tara on Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:44 am   Post subject:    

Someone asked when the next set of hearings would be held. The answer is below (source: Andrea Vogt article in the PI):

Quote:
Speaking emotionally after the hearing, Knox's father, Curt, said he believed his daughter's version of events. He plans to visit Knox in jail Tuesday, but is scheduled to return to Seattle before the next set of hearings, scheduled for March 13 and 14.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 4:09 am   Post subject:    

From the article in the Guardian, referring to the Seattle PI editorial that appeared after the fundraiser and Steve Shay's article in the WS Herald. It is interesting that this article does not indicate exactly why Mignini took issue with what the paper reported:

Quote:
For Knox's supporters it was a rare moment of a newspaper openly taking their side.


This is a telling observation. If you look at Seattle media coverage of this case, it has been totally lopsided. If you look at US media coverage of this case, it too has been fairly lopsided and short on facts.

I didn't realize it was the job of the press to take sides. I always thought the idea was to strive for objectivity, neutrality and non-partisan presentation of the facts.

It is also interesting to note that this reporter came to Seattle, only talked to people approved by David Marriott and then concluded, more or less, that Seattle is behind Amanda Knox.

Charles Mudede is the only journalist so far who has succeeded in getting Seattleites not vetted by David Marriott to voice their opinions of Amanda Knox. He is the source for the story told by Matt and the more recent impression given by someone who worked in a shop near World Cup coffee.

The picture I am getting from Seattle is quite different from the picture painted in this article.

And an odd picture it is, full of ambivalance. On the one hand, FOA has galvanized this groundswell of support for Knox locally. One recent graduate of the UW - probably chosen at random ;) - is quoted to back up this statement. So we are clearly meant to think that FOA is representative of Seattle opinion. And yet, there was the couple that got a two-second sound bite from Tonya Mosley. There are posters on this board from Seattle who feel that the prosecutor has been targeted by a very aggressive smear campaign, and who believe that the US media has not done a good job of covering the investigation or the trial. Why weren't any of these people contacted for this story?

On the other hand, we are told that only Bremner has felt safe enough to come out publicly in support of Knox - others are waiting, it seems. Waiting for what? If they represent prevailing sentiment here then what risk do they run by coming forward? Are we supposed to believe the lie told by Candace Dempsey. Which one? The one about those ordinary citizens who gathered in a public venue because they were stalking her, when in fact they were there to observe the media coverage of this event and report on it for their online community.

Moreover, Bremner was not chosen because she is one citizen among many. She was chosen to come forward because she has access to and experience with the media. She has hardly taken a risk by stating her opinion. In fact, no one has had access to the local media except people approved by David Marriott and FOA. So give me a break already with this bullshit about supporters who are afraid to come forward. The fact is, this local movement is backed by powerful, protected people who have nothing to fear whatsoever. Anne Bremner is not going to lose her job over this. Mike Heavey comes from a very powerful Seattle family and is a judge. Tom Wright is a former Hollywood director who now produces movies. And Doug Preston? Need I say more?

So please, spare us this song and dance about the little people. Don't they know how to do anything but play the role of victim?

There is one person who qualifies as a little guy, and that is Steve Shay. He complains about his photo being (gasp!) put on the Internet when he became a top story for about five minutes. The poor guy! It was in an online article in an online publication/website about the controversy that he was at the center of.

For that matter, my photo was put online at the PI by someone who had borrowed my handle and posted a link to my personal blog. And I wasn't at the center of any controversy involving the prosecutor of this case. I am just an ordinary citizen who posts on a message board. If I had any qualms about coming forward and speaking on the record under my own name, it is a moot point anyway. My name, as well as that of my husband, our shopping habits and our approximate location have all been provided to the online public at large without our consent. I guess you could say that since I am "reporting" on some aspects of this case, I have become fair game. Okay, fine. Then why is it that when I observe an event at a public venue and report on what I saw this is considered to be a horrible invasion of privacy by a handful of people? Why the double standard?

Shortly after the fundraiser, the local report in the WS Herald, and Mignini's subsequent action, I sent an email to the publisher, Ken Robinson. I have known his family for 44 years. That email contained nothing secret, and I told Ken I was forwarding a copy for information to Steve Shay, since I mentioned him in the email. It seemed only fair. Ken Robinson replied that he was the only authorized spokesman for the newspaper. Fair enough. A few days ago, someone sent me a post made by Charlie Wilkes, in which he boasts about having been sent a copy of this email by the publisher. In fact, Charlie implied that it was because the publisher thought so little of my integrity and candor. I contacted the publisher, who wrote back to say that he had done no such thing and that he had no idea who this person was. He stated in writing that he had forwarded the email to nobody and had only downloaded it onto his hard drive. How odd, then, that Charlie Wilkes has either seen or heard about this email.

I have been waiting since Friday for Ken's reply to my third email, asking for confirmation that if it was forwarded, then it was Steve Shay who sent a copy of my email to Charlie Wilkes, without my consent - prior or ex post facto - and without my knowledge.

In the past year, I have been contacted by ordinary people from Seattle and throughout the state of Washington who feel, as I do, that the investigation was conducted with due diligence, that the PR campaign has done tremendous harm to the victim, and that this trial - with the two suspects currently under indictment - should go forward. Many of these people truly are afraid to speak out. Not that the media really care what they think anyway.

While we're on the subject, why should a small but powerful group like FOA have a total lock on the local media? Personally, I think this reality is driving more and more people away from the traditional media on toward other, more immediate, less filtered and brokered resources.

Finally, Candace Dempsey noting that the focus should be on the victim and not on Knox is a minor irony considering her own role in making it all about the honor student from Seattle. I suppose she thinks that striking this pose will play well in Britain, where there is still some sympathy for the victim, and where the victim's family waits silently for the wheels of justice to turn. Does this mean she senses the wind is turning and hopes that the stench will be less noticeable if she comes out with these lofty sentiments?

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 4:19 am   Post subject:    

Tara wrote:

Quote:
We've talked about why Knox & Sollecito didn't attend Meredith's vigil, and I guess I've always given the benefit of the doubt that they were busy at the police station, and were "stuck" and couldn't leave.

Since Meredith's candlelight vigil started at 8:00pm on November 5, 2007, and Sollecito went to the police station at 11:00pm, and Knox's questioning didn't begin until midnight do we dare think that the two were just "too busy" to attend? Did they have something more important to do before going to see the police, like cleaning Sol's place?


The source for the story that Knox and Sollecito were at the police station and so could not attend the vigil is Candace Dempsey. Some months ago, she asked me what time they were taken in for questioning, and my answer - after checking every source I could think of - was that there was no information as to what time they went to the police station and what time questioning began. So of course Candace ran with the story that they were being interviewed by police at the time of the vigil.

I suppose we'll soon hear that the police have lied about what time the questioning began to make Knox and Sollecito look callous for not attending the vigil.

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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 4:32 am   Post subject: Re: Corriere Dell'Umbria   

Brian S. wrote:
From the CU - A whole raft of stories. I'll post the Italian before they disappear to make room for todays evidence:




Brian,

"Raft" is right.

As a continuity plan, I've opened up a new topic over in the (multi)Media thread

Italian newspaper reports on the case 28 Feb 2009-

where I've squirelled away some of yesterday's reports
because there are too many for me to get to in one go.

I'll accumulate the originals over there, and make it ongoing.

I'll translate them on a drip-feed basis when I can and post the translations here.
Some articles I haven't seen before.

It feels a bit like how I imagine Mrs Lana's garden must look, with all the cabbages in a row...
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Offline Professor Snape


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 5:02 am   Post subject: Re: Hangin' out   

Tara wrote:
We've talked about why Knox & Sollecito didn't attend Meredith's vigil, and I guess I've always given the benefit of the doubt that they were busy at the police station, and were "stuck" and couldn't leave.


Ouch, somebody grab those two a hose! :lol:

Tonight I am going to bore you all with the uneventful surprises on a typical Saturday night at the Snape Castle.

Laundry.

Quick question. What do you do when you are standing in front of the washer, you're tappin' your toes and just want to add the softener but the water is pouring in about as slow as syrup and you wish it would hurry up because you have a dozen more things to get done in lightening speed??

You turn it on WARM! Why? Because you are IN A HURRY before anyone comes home. Running either cold or hot on their own go slow, but together, pretty tootin’ quick!

Hexes away,

Professor Snape
PS. don't forget the bleach!

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Offline DLW


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 6:03 am   Post subject:    

Frank once and a while has an interesting more objective post . This has a more detailed look at how Patrick’s name came up. I’m not sure exactly sure how he is going to fit this in to the larger picture?

‘Our trip to hell has just started, this is Perugia Shock.’

Almost sounds like a lead into the Twilight Zone.
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Offline mojo


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:10 am   Post subject: Re: ANDREA VOGT, SATURDAY UPDATE   

The Machine wrote:

I can see why Judge Paolo Micheli excluded the possibility that the double DNA knife had been contaminated. The knife was placed in a police envelope and then placed inside a folder. Frank Sfarzo didn't mention that fact in any of his pieces.


but then the article continues......he took it OUT of the envelope?? WHY? do they actually mean that it still had the first layer of protection on it or did he handle the knife directly albeit gloved and then stick it in some box??? gotta say it doesn't sound very dilligent to me, but i'll admit i have little experience with DNA procedure.....

Homicide unit captain Stefano Gubbiotti then testified later at police headquarters he took the knife out of the envelope (also while wearing gloves) and placed it in a cardboard box he had in his office before it would be sent to Rome for forensic analysis.

"It was a box that had come with my agenda calendar," Gubbiotti said when asked to describe the box further, noting that it was from the Italian designer Renato Balestra. That box was then placed in another box for transport to Rome.
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 10:45 am   Post subject:    

Making use of this story I believe it is possible to reconstruct much of the last two days in court and come to some kind of understanding about the interviews of the 5th/6th November.

Amanda:

"I was treated as a person only after I had made the statements and just." The Commissioner said that Amanda Knox, the resumption of the process, wanted to make spontaneous statements referring in particular to the testimony of police officers who have reported in the Classroom in the classroom and the girl in Seattle 'and' been treated "well" during his stay in the police. With an Italian uncertain and imprecise Amanda Knox explained that the police would then offered a drink, go to the bathroom and taken from eat. "Prior to this, and 'was like I said." The American student was' that "frankly sorry to hear what is not true by the witnesses."


Raffaele:

"The night between 5 and November 6 have been for a long time Questura. Piu 'times I asked and pointed out that the police wanted to contact my father. I wanted to contact him in any way, but they have denied me. I also asked Alternatively, you can suspend the minutes and call a lawyer. But even this, and I 'was denied. "Cosi' Raffaele urge its spontaneous statements issued before the Court of Assizes of Perugia, immediately after talking it was also Amanda Knox. "I do not want to make accusations, but I have heard vague things and I would like to clarify details of the particular - said the student of Giovinazzo, rising up in front of the microphone -." Even when I was taken to jail, I was placed in a cell and I could not talk to anyone - continued urge - it 'with my father' with a lawyer until they have appeared before the GIP Matteini. "The boy was then told that, towards the final phase of questioning, the and 'was asked to remove their shoes. "I have actually kept barefoot all night - said Raffaele - until the next morning and search my house. I was left barefoot without explaining why, and nobody told me about footprint. "Raffaele urge wanted to make some clarifications with regard to what is reported in the classroom in relation to his drug use." On the question of confidences made to Amanda on my use of drugs over all'hashish - said the boy - I confirm that this confidence there 'and was concerned what I call an' experiment 'of when I was 17-18 years. Several years have passed and I have no more 'touched anything like that. Every time I have ever used cannabis, I leave to you the conclusions. "

Google translation of AffarItaliani

The investigators described the scene they found at the cottage. They described the events of the next few days.

After the initial examination of the crime scene certain factors became apparent. The investigators didn't believe that evidence demonstrated any breakin via Filomena's window or a burglary which had gone wrong. The broken window was in full view of the road and well out of reach from the ground outside. The 10lb rock was too close to the window to be thrown from outside. and the window glass was on top of Filomena's possessions which had been thrown around the room. No other property than Meredith's phones, money and cards had been taken.

Bloody footprints were found in Filomena's room demonstrating that the scene in there was arranged after Meredith had been killed. Two bloody footprints were obvious in Meredith's room. One man sized and one girl sized. Meredith had been sexually assaulted and "butchered". This didn't fit with a possible burglar simply seeking to put a discoverer out of action before fleeing.

The police came to the conclusion that Meredith had probably been attacked and killed by someone she knew and the scene at the cottage had been arranged.

They checked out the stories and alibi's of various friends and aquaintances of Meredith and it became apparent that none of these had been involved. However, a trace of Raffaele's cell phone records proved he hadn't been where he said he'd been along with Amanda

The strange behaviour of Amanda and Raffaele had already drawn the attention of the police. They both knew Meredith and so they asked Raffaele to come to the police station to explain the discrepancy between his cellphone record and the earlier alibi story given by him and Amanda.

It's known that Amanda had lectures on Monday 5th, so I suspect did Raffaele. I suspect the police asked if he could come to the police station after lectures in the evening. So what did they do between lectures and arriving at the police station around 10:30pm.(confirmed by Amanda's call from the waiting room to Filomena).

They didn't go to Meredith's vigil with everyone else that evening but they say had a meal. Long meal?? What else did they do??

The police told Amanda she could go home, they hadn't asked for her to come, they only wanted to speak to Raffaele. Amanda said she wanted to wait for him and got on with her exercises in the waiting room after phoning Filomena.

At some stage over the next hour or so and after being presented with his cell phone record, Raffaele admitted that he'd initially told the police a "load of crap". That he hadn't been with Amanda, she gone out at around 9:00pm to see Patrick at Le Chic whilst he stayed at home downloading a video on his computer. Amanda didn't come back until around 1:00am the following morning.

Since Amanda was still in the waiting room, at around midnight the investigators asked to speak with her and ask her to give her version of the evening now that Raffaele had withdrawn his alibi.

Using a well known police method(even in the US) with two suspects in different rooms, Monica Napoleoni went between the two interviews to check if the stories they gave were matching. They weren't. There were many CONTRADICTIONS between their two versions. Raffaele obviously admits to smoking cannabis that night. Amanda obviously first said she didn't. The questioners told her not to lie a second time. Amanda obviously then went into detail about the drug use Raffaele had admitted to her.Eventually, after asking to see Amanda's phone, the investigators discovered a message timed 8:35pm Nov. 1st where Amanda told someone "See you later". Amanda collapsed crying and came up with the story blaming Patrick. This fitted with what Raffaele had told them in the other room. The interview was suspended and the GIP was called.

Meanwhile at this turn of events, Raffaele is asked for his shoes. Just as in the US the investigators don't always tell a suspect what evidence they have. Poor Raffaele, they wouldn't tell him they wanted his shoes to compare with the bloody footprint they had found in Meredith's room. And guess what? They were about the same size. They only had to look at Amanda's feet to decide that her foot must have been very close to the other print found.

The following morning the investigators go to Raffaele's apartment. There is a strong smell of bleach and one of the investigators is drawn to one sparklingly clean knife which stood out amongst the others in Raffaele's kitchen. This is sent to Rome for forensic examination.


Points of contention raised by the defenses or in spontaneous statements:

Amanda said she wasn't treated well, the investigators say she was.

Raffaele made a statement in an attempt to undo any damage caused by Amanda's evidence about his drug use.
He complained that he wasn't allowed to speak with his father or a lawyer.
He complained that his shoes were taken near the end of questioning and he wasn't told why.
His defense made the point that the bra clasp with his DNA wasn't collected at the time of the initial survey of the crime scene.
They complained that he was charged on the basis of footprint evidence which later turned out to be incorrect.
They questioned what it was that initially made a detective suspicious about the knife found at Raffaele's.
They questioned it's handling between there and the forensics in Rome.


Last edited by Brian S. on Sun Mar 01, 2009 5:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:34 am   Post subject: Virgilio on Observer   

Virgilio has just posted a report on the Sunday edition of the Seattle Observer just out.

They quote from it and provide some background context (e.g., on who the FOA are and what they do).

In Italian it comes across as a self-evident critique, where the quotes speak for themselves,
e.g., per the Obs: on the "eccentricities of the Italian judicial system" (namely, hearing 2 days a week, and the jury can go home and read stuff)

In English, it would be like, "Yeah, and?"


Some new phrases though:

The picture of AK that is trying to be presented:
- "una fanciulla dolce e un po' hippy" ("a sweet girl and a bit jazzy")

And "spokesperson" doesn't do it in English any more:
- The case has attracted the attention and support of various "nomi di grido" (literally, "shout names") like ...

("l'attenzione e il supporto di alcuni nomi di grido fra cui Paul Ciolino, un investigatore di Chicago, e Douglas Preston, autore di "The Monster of Florence", libro sul caso Pacciani.")


[ Virgilio ]
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 12:15 pm   Post subject:    

Bess asked:
"Does anyone know the date of the next court session? Is it next Friday, or two weeks from now?"

The schedule has been fixed in January (though there are crazy theories over there that the court just learnt it was carnival time and that's why they suddenly pushed the date :D):

"il presidente Massei ha comunicato il calendario delle udienze per i mese di febbraio (6, 7, 13, 14, 27, 28), di marzo (13, 14, 20, 21, 27, 28) e di aprile (3, 4, 18, 23 e 24).
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Offline Bess


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 12:23 pm   Post subject:    

bolint wrote:
Bess asked:
"Does anyone know the date of the next court session? Is it next Friday, or two weeks from now?"

The schedule has been fixed in January (though there are crazy theories over there that the court just learnt it was carnival time and that's why they suddenly pushed the date :D):

"il presidente Massei ha comunicato il calendario delle udienze per i mese di febbraio (6, 7, 13, 14, 27, 28), di marzo (13, 14, 20, 21, 27, 28) e di aprile (3, 4, 18, 23 e 24).


Grazie! :)
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Offline mojo


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 12:36 pm   Post subject:    

thanks, Brian. that's as coherent an explanation as i've read 'til now.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 12:41 pm   Post subject:    

"Here's a new report from ANDREA VOGT for the Seattle PI."

I like Andrea Vogt's reports, they are fair, give information, and concentrate on what matters not on the fuchsia sweater of a defendant. :D
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:01 pm   Post subject: Vigil   

Tara wrote:
We've talked about why Knox & Sollecito didn't attend Meredith's vigil, and I guess I've always given the benefit of the doubt that they were busy at the police station, and were "stuck" and couldn't leave.

Since Meredith's candlelight vigil started at 8:00pm on November 5, 2007, and Sollecito went to the police station at 11:00pm, and Knox's questioning didn't begin until midnight do we dare think that the two were just "too busy" to attend? Did they have something more important to do before going to see the police, like cleaning Sol's place?

While many, many people were mourning Meredith's death in the very public area of Perugia, what the heck were these two doing? Having a pizza? I think not.

The smell of bleach hangs around for a day or so, but then grows faint. I think they were on a cleaning rampage Monday, and that's why the bleach smell was so strong when Sollectito's place was searched on November 6th.



You know what I reckon Tara? 11 - 11:15 is a really late time to be having an appoitment at the police station and it does sound like it was an appointment rather then Raffaele all of a sudden getting a call from the police telling him tyo come in on the instant...after all, they had a leisurely dinner then popped over when they were done. So, why would they have an appointment that late? I reckon the police had asked him to come in that day, but Raffaele had tried to get out of it by telling them he had lectures. So, to not be put off, they probably said..'Fine..how about the evening then?' Still wanting to get out of it, I'll bet Raffaele told them 'Sorry, but I'm going with Amanda to Meredith's vigil this evening'. To which the police said, 'No problem, just pop over after the vigil, what we want to talk to you about won't take very long anyway :)' With no more lectures or vigils to use as an excuse not to go, Raffaele was resigned to going down the police station. Of course, the whole story of going to the vigil was lie, neither had they ever intended on going, but they couldn't suddenly go down the police station earlier because they were supposed to be at the vigil. Of course, they may have instead spent the evening doing some productive 'housework' instead :) I reckon that's how it went down.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:16 pm   Post subject: Laundry   

Snape wrote:
Laundry.

Quick question. What do you do when you are standing in front of the washer, you're tappin' your toes and just want to add the softener but the water is pouring in about as slow as syrup and you wish it would hurry up because you have a dozen more things to get done in lightening speed??

You turn it on WARM! Why? Because you are IN A HURRY before anyone comes home. Running either cold or hot on their own go slow, but together, pretty tootin’ quick!



Hi Snape. Or how about this. What if you're washing clothes and people are about to start arriving any minute, people who you don't want to know 'you've' been doing washing, so whilst it's part way through the wash you interrupt the wash cycle by quickly turning off the machine, then turning it back on again and switching it to the 'Drain' cycle, draining out all that nice warm water? Then maybe switching it to spin, or maybe not.

I actually have to do this myself quite a bit. I have a front loader where the rubber ring in the door is old and it's perished, causing it to twist up a bit, which I haven't gotten around to replacing yet. If it's not manipulated so it folds right, when it starts getting into a wash cycle it'll start leaking out the door and I get a flood, so I have to hover around untill about 20 - 25 or so minutes into the wash and quickly pounce on it to stop the machine and switch it to drain, then rearrange the ring and start over. The clothes instead are rather toasty and warm when that happens.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:41 pm   Post subject: Hypocrisy Much?   

Hypocrisy much? This story on the Seattle PI is worth a read through (and watch the video). A Seattle deputy storms into a police cell and starts throwing around and beating the 15 year old girl prisoner locked inside. He's on trial for it at the moment. After denying the charges, the video was releeased. His lawyer tried desperately to prevent the video's release, saying "It doesn't tell the whole story". Guess who his lawyer is: THE SEATTLE PI

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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 4:18 pm   Post subject:    

I refined this list based on what we've heard in these days:
Quote:
Amanda's (and partly Raffaele's) whereabouts in the days following the discovery of the murder

Nov 2 Friday

After the discovery of the murder they spent all day and night at the cottage and the police station


Nov 3 Saturday

5:30am gets home (to Raffaele's) from the police station, eating, "passed out"

11:00am police station
- taken to the cottage
- (meanwhile Raffaele gives 40 minute interview to Kate Mansey)
- back to the police station another 5 and half hour questioning

6pm still at the police ( at least she says to Lumumba on phone)
Probably warned not to leave Italy (see email)

Pizza eating with Raffaele at some pizzeria
Meeting wtih the "remaining roommates" (brrr... chilly), "hurricane of emotions"
Panty buying (may be before the meeting)

Nov 4

- Writing "The Email" in the morning
- 12:24 sending the email
- Sending other emails
- Police
- scene inspection at the cottage
- 14:45 questioning (Juve, Spyros)
- Raffaele brings pizza to the police station
- Conversation in the bugged room, no conclusive result
evening - ???


Nov 5 Monday

Morning: meeting Lumumba on the street ("You have no idea what it is like to be probed by police for hours on end")
morning - University course, Italian essay writing ("Letter to mom")
afternoon - ???
evening - Dinner with Raffaele who is later to go to the police
22:15 police station with Raffaele (Amanda was not invited to the police at this time)
23::xx cartwheels
23::xx questioning starts about contradictions ("... if you don't have other things to do")

Nov 6 Tuesday

1:45 - discussing phone messages, breaks, accuses Lumumba, suspect status "gained", Minutes closed, prosecutor called
3:30 - Interrogation starts (probably with prosecutor present)
5:45 - Statement to the prosecutor (Handwritten? In Italian?)
morning - breakfast in police canteen
jail
afternoon - Memoir in English explaining the Statement
night - Mother flies in


Last edited by bolint on Sun Mar 01, 2009 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 4:20 pm   Post subject:    

The emiticons are some forum artifacts, I did not want them.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 4:39 pm   Post subject:    

Michael wrote:

Quote:
Hypocrisy much? This story on the Seattle PI is worth a read through (and watch the video). A Seattle deputy storms into a police cell and starts throwing around and beating the 15 year old girl prisoner locked inside. He's on trial for it at the moment. After denying the charges, the video was releeased. His lawyer tried desperately to prevent the video's release, saying "It doesn't tell the whole story". Guess who his lawyer is?



To be fair, lawyers represent their clients, whoever they may be. Not many refuse on principle to take on certain kinds of cases or people accused of certain crimes. Also, Anne Bremner pretty much specializes in defending cops. In other words, she's just doing her job. At least she's sticking to a jurisdiction that is rightly hers and working within a system that she understands (I hope she does, anyway).

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Offline FinnMacCool


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 4:48 pm   Post subject:    

bolint wrote:
The emiticons are some forum artifacts, I did not want them.


Bolint, just edit that post and this time turn the Smilies off. (It's in Options on the left hand side of the screen when you post.)
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 4:58 pm   Post subject: Hypocrisy   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Michael wrote:

Quote:
Hypocrisy much? This story on the Seattle PI is worth a read through (and watch the video). A Seattle deputy storms into a police cell and starts throwing around and beating the 15 year old girl prisoner locked inside. He's on trial for it at the moment. After denying the charges, the video was releeased. His lawyer tried desperately to prevent the video's release, saying "It doesn't tell the whole story". Guess who his lawyer is?



To be fair, lawyers represent their clients, whoever they may be. Not many refuse on principle to take on certain kinds of cases or people accused of certain crimes. Also, Anne Bremner pretty much specializes in defending cops. In other words, she's just doing her job. At least she's sticking to a jurisdiction that is rightly hers and working within a system that she understands (I hope she does, anyway).



Well, that's precisely the point I was angling to make. The inherrent hypocisy that has to exist in the role of 'being' a lawyer. A lawyer will scream and shout about a certain fault in, or committed by, a particular individual when in their client's ineterests to do so, whilst the next day, happily defend the same fault when it presents in one of their other clients. I'm not saying Bremner is wrong to defend her police client, or to try and proclaim outrage in regard to Amanda allegedly being hit...that is 'being' a lawyer. My point really is simply that, in regard to Bremner's campaign for Amanda, the public need to recognise and understand this fact. Lawyers will 'spin' for their clients, just as much as any politician will spin. Hypocrisy is par for the course.

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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 5:14 pm   Post subject:    

Finn wrote:
"just edit that post and this time turn the Smilies off"

Thanks, I did.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 5:34 pm   Post subject:    

Michael wrote:

Quote:
Well, that's precisely the point I was angling to make. The inherrent hypocisy that has to exist in the role of 'being' a lawyer. A lawyer will scream and shout about a certain fault in, or committed by, a particular individual when in their client's ineterests to do so, whilst the next day, happily defend the same fault when it presents in one of their other clients. I'm not saying Bremner is wrong to defend her police client, or to try and proclaim outrage in regard to Amanda allegedly being hit...that is 'being' a lawyer. My point really is simply that, in regard to Bremner's campaign for Amanda, the public need to recognise and understand this fact. Lawyers will 'spin' for their clients, just as much as any politician will spin. Hypocrisy is par for the course.



Our system gives every defendent the right to legal counsel, no matter what the crime. For this reason alone, I would be hesitant to criticize a lawyer for defending his or her client. And I don't think it is hypocrisy per se to take one side in one case and the other side in another. Honestly, I think the public - especially the American public, given the litiguous nature of our society - understands this. If I were accused of a crime in America, I would hope that my lawyer would "spin" it in the best possible way for me.

In my view, Anne Bremner's problem with respect to the Amanda Knox case is that she doesn't seem to be able to get her mind around basic differences between the system in which she operates and that of Italy. Plus, she gives the impression that Knox's lawyers aren't doing their job and/or works at cross purposes. The Heavey letter was stupid; the Mignini smear campaign was counter-productive. And she doesn't seem to listen when Knox's lawyers politely suggest that she and her group cease and desist with the assault on Italy and stick to supporting the hometown girl. It's like they're running this rogue campaign. You get the feeling that Goofy and Chris are the masterminds - and what a ridiculous notion that is!

Why? Because this FOA campaign is neither intelligent nor well thought out. It plays to the lowest common denominator. It is noisy and dishonest. I get the feeling Curt Knox isn't just pretending to distance himself from it; I think he is well and truly embarrassed.

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Offline FinnMacCool


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 5:53 pm   Post subject:    

I first heard about the police brutality story in Seattle when it featured on the front page of today's Corriere della Sera. It struck me as odd that it was only the ninth item in the Local News section of the Seattle PI - maybe it was originally higher but has slipped down. At any rate, it seems to me (as to the Corriere) a shocking story, even though I'm far removed from the incident.

The Corriere made no connection with the Perugia trial - neither the violence-in-custody aspect nor Anne Bremner's involvement. I noticed the coincidence of her involvement - and not being a Seattleite, nor having come across Bremner's name before, I just wondered if she's one of those lawyers that likes to hitch her star to unpopular or notorious causes - a sort of downmarket Jacques Vergès.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 6:02 pm   Post subject:    

Finn wrote:

Quote:
I first heard about the police brutality story in Seattle when it featured on the front page of today's Corriere della Sera. It struck me as odd that it was only the ninth item in the Local News section of the Seattle PI - maybe it was originally higher but has slipped down. At any rate, it seems to me (as to the Corriere) a shocking story, even though I'm far removed from the incident.

The Corriere made no connection with the Perugia trial - neither the violence-in-custody aspect nor Anne Bremner's involvement. I noticed the coincidence of her involvement - and not being a Seattleite, nor having come across Bremner's name before, I just wondered if she's one of those lawyers that likes to hitch her star to unpopular or notorious causes - a sort of downmarket Jacques Vergès.


That would be a very downmarket Jacques Vergès. :) Bremner is not known for taking on unpopular causes by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, when you consider Charlie Wilkes' obsession with the pitted windshield syndrome and the masses paying blind obedience to authority, it is ironic that he has hitched his wagon to her star. She often defends law enforcement officers against charges of brutality or wrongful death. In the Mary Kay Letourneau case, she defended the Highline School District against the 12-year old Samoan boy with whom the 30-something teacher had an affair.

From watching the video, it looks as if the other officer said something to his colleague after the latter had landed two blows. Like, maybe, "whoa dude, dial it down!" This is the third such case in the past year involving the Burien police force. What looks particularly bad, aside from the fact that there were two officers, the girl was being shown into a holding cell and she showed no signs of trying to evade her captors, is that he seems to have punched her after she was subdued. Also, when he brought her to her feet, is it my imagination or is he pulling her up by her hair?

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Offline Giustizia


Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:13 pm

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Location: New York City

PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 6:04 pm   Post subject:    

For at least a year now, there's been a coordinated effort on the part of the Knox family to tailor the media message, especially in the U.S.

From the Mail Online in April 2008: As new evidence throws the Meredith Kercher case into chaos, just who DID kill her?
"In the U.S., Foxy Knoxy's parents have orchestrated a media offensive to swing public opinion back in their daughter's favour. Backed by a team of public relations experts, and with the support of Joe Tacopina, one of New York's hottest defence lawyers, they have launched a no-holds-barred attack on the Italian police."

There are obviously many other references, but I just wanted to include one that shows how long there's been a PR firm and others (FOA) pushing out press releases, having fund-raisers, and spoon-feeding pablum to the U.S. media.

On the other side of the Atlantic, does the victim's family have a PR team? If so, I suspect they simply told the Kercher family: "Do nothing. Don't say a word, don't do interviews, don't hire anyone in an attempt to craft the message concerning your daughter. There's no need to - the heinous crime speaks for itself, and sympathy will come unsolicited. The truth will out."

I've been very impressed throughout by the Kercher family. The only time I've ever heard any public comment was when the entire Kercher family was at a press conference immediately after RG was found guilty of murder last October: Kercher murderer gets 30 years

This video, towards the half-way mark, has portions of the same press conference, but this time it includes her mother speaking: Meredith Kercher family reacts after murderer jailed for 30 years

Whenever I watch those two videos, I'm always struck by the sober, clear-headed, measured statements by all of them. And AK's mother Arlene says something very astute: "We can't sort of put what we want, it's got to be what the evidence shows. Most cases take quite a long time to come to court, to have the evidence verified, to have all the forensics done, you know, and to have everything checked and double-checked before the going to court, so you know, I think it's about average, really.

No grandstanding. No media strategizing. No dramatizing. No pre-judging. No self-pity. Just quiet maturity, patiently waiting for the legal system to run its course. Watching her family together, it's obvious to me what kind of person Meredith was, and what her sister says is the end of it - it's not about anyone else but the victim: "Today's been really important in our steps towards justice for Meredith, so all we can is just wait really and see what happens."
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 6:09 pm   Post subject:    

I've just seen the Seattle police video.
I guess Anne Bremner will say that the prosecutor's case is baseless as at the time of the beating the sheriff's deputy had no legal assistance.
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 6:18 pm   Post subject: Silent Mode   

The food blogger usually is very quick in linking Frank’s new post and then goes on to tell everyone…. ‘According to Frank this is how it happened and Frank is the best investigative whatever, based in Perugia, attending trial and he tells it how it is ect, etc, etc’.
Today (‘she said ‘he’s bad, he’s bad.’ He’s the murderer!) no linking nor commenting. I guess she is still digesting Frank’s new post, thinking which way to cook it before posting any comments on it. :o
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 6:26 pm   Post subject:    

"Today (‘she said ‘he’s bad, he’s bad.’ He’s the murderer!) no linking nor commenting. "

Well, it's true, but in exchange, there is no big Frank bashing from this side, either. :D
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Offline Giustizia


Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:13 pm

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Location: New York City

PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 6:27 pm   Post subject:    

Tara wrote:
If we are to believe CW, he gives confirmation about how Knox happily went about her business when she returned to the cottage Friday, at around 10:30am to stroll through the open front door, take her shower, look at a bloody bath mat, blood drops and streaks, do the bathmat boogie, blowdry her hair, look at poop and not flush it away, blowdry her hair some more, grab the mop and bucket then saunter back to Sollecito's for a leisurely breakfast, mop up Sol's kitchen water spill or pipe breakage mess, and then go for another walk with the mop and bucket; then only DURING the walk urge Urge to go take a look at a couple strange things she saw at her place. AND SHE DID THIS ALL WITHOUT MAKING ONE PHONE CALL!


This has never made sense, for both of the reasons you've mentioned. The timeline is not probable - unless you're really hustling, is it possible to accomplish everything that AK claims she did from ~10:30 AM on November 2, to the time she and RS were surprised at AK's apartment by the arrival of the postal police? I recollect that AK did claime, at one point that she arrived back at her apartment at 10:30 AM. Can anyone verify that statement? And is there a timeline for this particular version of events, together with the calls AK made to her roommates and MK's phone around noontime? There's just no way to go back and forth from via della Pergola 7 to RS's apartment and back, PLUS take a shower in a bathroom where there's blood in quite a few places, etc.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 6:28 pm   Post subject:    

Jools wrote:

Quote:
The food blogger usually is very quick in linking Frank’s new post and then goes on to tell everyone…. ‘According to Frank this is how it happened and Frank is the best investigative whatever, based in Perugia, attending trial and he tells it how it is ect, etc, etc’.
Today (‘she said ‘he’s bad, he’s bad.’ He’s the murderer!) no linking nor commenting. I guess she is still digesting Frank’s new post, thinking which way to cook it before posting any comments on it.


Give her time, Jools. I bet she's busy stretching, doing the splits, getting in a few cartwheels, doing yoga poses and then completing a long spin class. After that, there's the whole cool-down thing, which is as above but in reverse. She's a busy person, so sometimes she does this while shopping. The entire process takes about six hours out of her day. :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 6:42 pm   Post subject:    

From Seattlest.com:

Quote:
Local Lawyer Hired To Help Amanda Knox A prominent Seattle attorney who has some awesome glamour shots and goes by the name Anne Bremner has been brought on to assist with Amanda Knox's defense. Bremner has served as counsel for high-profile clients like Governor Christine Gregoire and the Seattle Police Department. Bremner has been brought on to help get the word out on the evidence, or as she says, "the lack of evidence," against Knox. Bremner has been hired by private supporters of Knox, including King County Superior Court Judge Ed Heavey and Seattle Prep High School, Knox's alma mater.

By abbey in News on October 6, 2008


I don't know if Abbey is right about Ed Heavey being an FOA, or if she meant Mike. Ed is Mike's uncle.

I didn't know that Seattle Prep officially had a dog in this race, but it would make sense. It doesn't look so good for Seattle Prep to have one of its alums involved in this kind of thing. I wonder if the Seattle - Perugia sister city organization is backing the FOA effort as well. If so, then it starts to look as if Amanda Knox's image is of concern to certain people for institutional rather than purely personal reasons.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:02 pm   Post subject:    

OT)) but an interesting statistic:

Charlie Wilkes on Google groups.
Average score/rating: two stars out of five, 756 evaluations

Not very good considering that Charlie has been at it since late 2003.

I caught a glimpse of some of the evaluations* and here are just a few choice morsels:

"level of intellectual dishonesty matched only by degree of pomposity..." 0 stars
"endlessly repeats himself.... Wenatchee, Wenatchee, Wenatchee....." -1 star
"wish he would apply Occam's razor to his own logic...." -6 stars
"drones on and on... someone please make it stop, my head hurts..." 0 stars
"suffers from a severe case of the pitted olive syndrome... brought on by over-exposure to his own bullshit..." -5 stars


*Just kidding of course. I don't think I could stand to read them even if I had access.

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Last edited by Skeptical Bystander on Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline GreenWyvern


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:33 pm   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Michael wrote:

Quote:
Well, that's precisely the point I was angling to make. The inherrent hypocisy that has to exist in the role of 'being' a lawyer. A lawyer will scream and shout about a certain fault in, or committed by, a particular individual when in their client's ineterests to do so, whilst the next day, happily defend the same fault when it presents in one of their other clients. I'm not saying Bremner is wrong to defend her police client, or to try and proclaim outrage in regard to Amanda allegedly being hit...that is 'being' a lawyer. My point really is simply that, in regard to Bremner's campaign for Amanda, the public need to recognise and understand this fact. Lawyers will 'spin' for their clients, just as much as any politician will spin. Hypocrisy is par for the course.


Our system gives every defendent the right to legal counsel, no matter what the crime. For this reason alone, I would be hesitant to criticize a lawyer for defending his or her client. And I don't think it is hypocrisy per se to take one side in one case and the other side in another. Honestly, I think the public - especially the American public, given the litiguous nature of our society - understands this. If I were accused of a crime in America, I would hope that my lawyer would "spin" it in the best possible way for me.


The best statement I have ever come across on this question is by Dr Samuel Johnson in the 18th century (in Boswell's Life of Johnson):

Quote:
We talked of the practice of the law. Sir William Forbes said, he
thought an honest lawyer should never undertake a cause which he was
satisfied was not a just one. 'Sir, (said Dr. Johnson,) a lawyer has no
business with the justice or injustice of the cause which he undertakes,
unless his client asks his opinion, and then he is bound to give it
honestly. The justice or injustice of the cause is to be decided by the
judge.

Consider, Sir; what is the purpose of courts of justice? It is,
that every man may have his cause fairly tried, by men appointed to try
causes. A lawyer is not to tell what he knows to be a lie: he is not to
produce what he knows to be a false deed; but he is not to usurp the
province of the jury and of the judge, and determine what shall be the
effect of evidence,--what shall be the result of legal argument.

As it rarely happens that a man is fit to plead his own cause, lawyers are a
class of the community, who, by study and experience, have acquired the
art and power of arranging evidence, and of applying to the points at
issue what the law has settled.

A lawyer is to do for his client all that his client might fairly do for himself, if he could.

If, by a superiority of attention, of knowledge, of skill, and a better method of
communication, he has the advantage of his adversary, it is an
advantage to which he is entitled. There must always be some advantage,
on one side or other; and it is better that advantage should be had by
talents than by chance.

If lawyers were to undertake no causes till they
were sure they were just, a man might be precluded altogether from a
trial of his claim, though, were it judicially examined it might be
found a very just claim.
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Offline mojo


Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:31 pm

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:56 pm   Post subject:    

don't believe Richard Owen's article from the Times has been posted --

Amanda Knox says police mistreated her after murder
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Offline Kermit


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:58 pm   Post subject: NOW LET ME GET THIS STRAIGHT   

My head is reeling from all the details which have come out of the testimonies over the last few days.

- The start of the questioning on 5 November 2007 at 11 p.m.
- Raffaele asks to call his father
- Amanda wasn't invited (why didn't she go to the vigil in memory of Meredith?)
- She blurted out the accusation of Patrick upon being shown the SMS (so much for the "suggestive imagery" of the Italian police
- new spontaneous statements from Amanda and Raffaele

Still, I have fresh in my mind another accusation.



Maybe Chris Mellas will decide, like Judge Heavey, that he prefers not to travel to Italy.


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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:12 pm   Post subject: Liar Rita, not Lovely Rita   

Kermit wrote:

Quote:
Maybe Chris Mellas will decide, like Judge Heavey, that he prefers not to travel to Italy.


In answer to your question about which of the two officers is accused (by fam and friends) of hitting Knox during her legendary (as in urban legendary) 14-hour session of non-stop, intense interrogation, I believe it is the blonde officer on Amanda's right in the photo. And I believe, although this has to be verified, that she is the one referred to as "Liar Rita" by an anonymous poster at Frank's.

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Offline FinnMacCool


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:16 pm   Post subject:    

Thanks for that reminder, Kermit. If I remember right, I was the person who was having difficulty accepting that Amanda was hit, given that we hadn't seen any sign of charges being brought against the police for having done it.

And, um, still haven't...

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:17 pm   Post subject:    

Kermit wrote:

Quote:
Still, I have fresh in my mind another accusation.
(made by Chris Mellas)

You reminded of a comment Steve Huff made on his truecrimereport.com blog under his article on Barbie Nadeau's recent piece in the Daily Beast. Someone asked him what he thought about the case:

Quote:
Steve said:
Betsy - I'm not sure what to think. I think Amanda is unbalanced and seems narcissistic enough to have justified the death of another person in her head. But Doug Preston has made a fairly compelling case for Mignini being, if not corrupt, then not that in touch with reality himself. So that kind of casts doubt for me on the prosecutor's theory of the crime. And stories of corruption in Italian law enforcement are a dime a dozen.

I tend to ignore any spin coming from Amanda's family and friends, though. This is a situation - like the Casey Anthony case - where Amanda could probably look them in the eye, say 'I did it,' and her friends and family would still be protesting in every available outlet about her innocence, and how she's being railroaded.

But still - something is just off here, and I can understand why there are people who are convinced Amanda played a primary role in this crime. I'm just not 100% convinced of it yet, myself. I have no idea what the verdict will be when all is said and done.
Posted 02/17/2009 at 03:54:17 PM

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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:20 pm   Post subject: Sunday Thoughts...   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Jools wrote:

Quote:
The food blogger usually is very quick in linking Frank’s new post and then goes on to tell everyone…. ‘According to Frank this is how it happened and Frank is the best investigative whatever, based in Perugia, attending trial and he tells it how it is ect, etc, etc’.
Today (‘she said ‘he’s bad, he’s bad.’ He’s the murderer!) no linking nor commenting. I guess she is still digesting Frank’s new post, thinking which way to cook it before posting any comments on it.


Give her time, Jools. I bet she's busy stretching, doing the splits, getting in a few cartwheels, doing yoga poses and then completing a long spin class. After that, there's the whole cool-down thing, which is as above but in reverse. She's a busy person, so sometimes she does this while shopping. The entire process takes about six hours out of her day. :lol:

*********************************************************************************

Let's don't forget that Candace also needs to get in a good climb to keep her youthful? (60ish) fit and agile physique. I mean how else could Candace claim that climbing 15 feet of perpendicular wall with no footholds such as ascending to Filomena's window would be a cinch?

We now have at least 3 people in this case that Candace Dempsey finds herself identifying with. It's quite amazing how she and her husband completely understand Amanda Knox and her "stretching" exercises at the police station; the spiderman lone wolf who entered through Filomena's window; and who will ever forget Candace Dempsey identifying with Stephanie Kercher's mourning the loss of a younger sister...NOTE TO CANDACE: You do NOT know what it's like to have you're younger sister brutally murdered!

(This reminds me of what people said to me when my daughter died, "Oh, I completely understand what you're going through", as they were holding tight to their own children's hands, and my daughter was in an urn!)

Candace's thoughts on Monica Guzman's big announcement:
Quote:
Posted by Candace Dempsey at 12/9/08 5:54 p.m.
Hi everyone,

I'm happy to say that Monica Guzman announced my book deal for Murder In Italy on the Big Blog tonight

News of this book deal was leaked before, but I hadn't actually signed the contract yet (lawyers, lawyers). So I'm pleased and happy to let Monica do the announcing.

And thanks so much to Don Smith, my editor at the Seattle Post-Intelligencer for supporting me through a tumultuous year. Thanks also to my agent Andrew Stuart and my editor at Berkley Books, Shannon Jamieson Vasquez.

I do want to correct one typo. I'm sure Monica meant Italian culture, not Italian crime in the following graph:

"Dempsey, an Italian American who covered cops and courts for Spokane's Spokesman-Review, was drawn to the mystery both because of a dual fascination with true crime and Italian crime and because of the connections she saw between Kercher's fate and her own life. Dempsey was assaulted on a date as a teen. And like Stephanie Kercher, she, too, knows what it is to mourn the loss of a younger sister."



Now I see it...Candace Dempsey feels she's the obvious choice to write a book about the Murder of Meredith Kercher! Insanity.
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:26 pm   Post subject: Re: Liar Rita, not Lovely Rita   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Kermit wrote:

Quote:
Maybe Chris Mellas will decide, like Judge Heavey, that he prefers not to travel to Italy.


In answer to your question about which of the two officers is accused (by fam and friends) of hitting Knox during her legendary (as in urban legendary) 14-hour session of non-stop, intense interrogation, I believe it is the blonde officer on Amanda's right in the photo. And I believe, although this has to be verified, that she is the one referred to as "Liar Rita" by an anonymous poster at Frank's.


I seem to remember that the police woman on AK's right is the one Cmellas was acussing of the hitting.
Anyway this one is Lorena Zugarini.
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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:33 pm   Post subject: Re: Liar Rita, not Lovely Rita   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Kermit wrote:

Quote:
Maybe Chris Mellas will decide, like Judge Heavey, that he prefers not to travel to Italy.


In answer to your question about which of the two officers is accused (by fam and friends) of hitting Knox during her legendary (as in urban legendary) 14-hour session of non-stop, intense interrogation, I believe it is the blonde officer on Amanda's right in the photo. And I believe, although this has to be verified, that she is the one referred to as "Liar Rita" by an anonymous poster at Frank's.


From the SHOCK:
Quote:
While referring about this people inspector Lorena Zugarini (the one who broke down the door downstairs) arrives and witnesses the minutes.


Skep,

I'm thinking the blonde ILE on Knox's right in Kermit's photo above is Lorena Zugarini. She sure looks like the policewoman who kicked in the downstairs door in the video.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:44 pm   Post subject:    

Tara wrote:

Quote:
Skep,

I'm thinking the blonde ILE on Knox's right in Kermit's photo above is Lorena Zugarini. She sure looks like the policewoman who kicked in the downstairs door in the video.


So this anon at Frank's is wrong?

Quote:
Anonymous said...
Humm...

Rita has a lot to say, but we know she hit Amanda and has lied about that. So how are we to believe what she says about the interogation. If the police recorded this polite but firm interogation then we would know exactly what happened, afterall Rita says how careful and by the book they were.

But a recording would prove that Rita hit Amanda, and that Amanda did not say what Rita the Liar claims. And this is not the first time in this trial that the police have been caught telling lies. How can we believe anything they say, like when they claimed they did not enter Meredith's room upon discovery of the body. We know that was a lie, three people who do not support Amanda have testified against the police claim.

Oh Rita, if only you had made a recording, then you could be respected.

February 28, 2009 9:41 PM


Anyway, how do "we" know this, regardless of the officer's name?

I was thinking about why Sollecito's shoes were taken from him - maybe because of his conversation with daddy about taking a knife to the police station?

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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 9:01 pm   Post subject:    

Yesterday’s revelation that a woman’s bloody shoe print was on a pillow under Meredith’s body and the size is compatible with Knox’s foot size was the most significant one. It completely debunks the myth that Meredith's murder was committed by a lone wolf and it shows that a woman with a foot size compatible with Knox’s was involved.

The FOA claim on their website that Rudy Guede was responsible for Meredith's murder:

"Guede, and Guede alone, is responsible for Meredith's tragic death"

This is papable nonsense. The woman's bloody shoe print cannot be explained away by the bathmat shuffle or by contamination. The FOA will have to come up with another scenario that involves at least two people in Meredith's room when Meredith was killed and amend the statement above.

The idea that Guede committed the muder with an unknown mystery woman unconnected to the cottage is just ridiculous. The bloody shoe print is not the only piece of evidence that links Knox to the crime scene. Knox’s DNA was on the handle of the double DNA knife, which was used to stab Meredith, and Sollecito’s lawyers claim that Knox’s DNA was on Meredith’s bra. Knox's blood was mixed with Meredith's blood in the bathroom. Laura Mezzetti testified that she saw a wound on Knox's neck, which suggests that knox was cut in a struggle and would explain her blood in the bathroom basin.

Another popular FOA myth that has been debunked this weekend is the claim that Knox was asked to imagine what might have happened. Knox accused Diya Lumumba of murdering Meredith without any prompting or leading questions from the police. Knox's questioning was even shorter than we had estimated; less than 3 hours. The claim that Knox had no food or water has also been shown to be false.

It would be extremely naive and gullible to believe that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, who have been shown to be compulsive liars, are telling the truth, and that the postal police, officers from the Perugia Flying Squad, the Homicide Squad, the Narcotics Squad, Meredith’s friends and her Italian housemates are all lying. No judge or jury are going to be so naive and gullible.
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Offline Greggy


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 9:25 pm   Post subject:    

1. Hello Nicki,

Thank you for clarifying the DNA evidence against RS. It looks like significant jail time for RS for participating in the cover-up and obstruction of justice. I am still undecided about whether RS was directly involved in MK's murder, but it intuitively seems like he would have already confessed to only being involved in the cover-up, if he wasn't involved in the murder.


2. Hello GreenWyvern,

I greatly enjoyed reading your Samuel Johnson quote on the role of lawyers. This is the only forum analyzing the MK murder that can improve your literary education. One subtle thing I have noticed over the years is that a defense lawyer, whom thinks his client didn't commit the murder, will proclaim his client to be innocent; but a defense lawyer, whom thinks that his client might have committed the murder, will proclaim his client to be not guilty. We will have to see how AK's and RS's Defense Teams refer to their clients during this trial.


3. On AK's Non-Attendance at MK's Memorial Service:

I'm not surprised AK did not attend the memorial service for MK. From my readings of the perspectives of murderers, and especially serial murderers, an item stands out. It seems that many of them, in order to kill someone, have to dehumanize the victim. They justify their actions by acting like the person was sub-human, both during and after the murder in their comments. So to AK, in my opinion, MK no longer existed and was a dead sub-human not worthy of a memorial service. She betrayed this attitude during the waiting session at the police station with MK's friends by acting so insensitive and blunt about MK's horrific death. In my opinion, we should be glad the Judge kept her locked up - the wench is dangerous.
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Offline Principessa Etrusca


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 9:57 pm   Post subject:    

Greggy wrote:
It looks like significant jail time for RS for participating in the cover-up and obstruction of justice. I am still undecided about whether RS was directly involved in MK's murder, but it intuitively seems like he would have already confessed to only being involved in the cover-up, if he wasn't involved in the murder.


In addition to not having confessed to being part in a lesser crime, i.e. the cover-up, he also expressed his fear of Guede's lies in a letter to his father when Guede was arrested in Germany. If he was not at the cottage at the same as Guede when Meredith was murdered, he would not have any reason to worry about what Guede might say.


Quote:
I'm not surprised AK did not attend the memorial service for MK. From my readings of the perspectives of murderers, and especially serial murderers, an item stands out. It seems that many of them, in order to kill someone, have to dehumanize the victim. They justify their actions by acting like the person was sub-human, both during and after the murder in their comments. So to AK, in my opinion, MK no longer existed and was a dead sub-human not worthy of a memorial service. She betrayed this attitude during the waiting session at the police station with MK's friends by acting so insensitive and blunt about MK's horrific death. In my opinion, we should be glad the Judge kept her locked up - the wench is dangerous.


Her attitude is also obvious from two written documents: Amanda's e-mail to friends and family of 4th Nov which has been discussed in great detail and her "letter to mom" written at her Italian class on 5th Nov in which she said she "wanted to restart", needed "to turn over a leaf" and "leave what has happened behind". She is forward-looking and Meredith is firmly in her past.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 10:06 pm   Post subject:    

Principessa Etrusca wrote:

Quote:
Greggy wrote:
It looks like significant jail time for RS for participating in the cover-up and obstruction of justice. I am still undecided about whether RS was directly involved in MK's murder, but it intuitively seems like he would have already confessed to only being involved in the cover-up, if he wasn't involved in the murder.


In addition to not having confessed to being part in a lesser crime, i.e. the cover-up, he also expressed his fear of Guede's lies in a letter to his father when Guede was arrested in Germany. If he was not at the cottage at the same as Guede when Meredith was murdered, he would not have any reason to worry about what Guede might say.


I believe he actually wrote this in his prison diary - Papa is smiling but I am not 100% happy, etc.

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Offline Principessa Etrusca


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 10:25 pm   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
I believe he actually wrote this in his prison diary - Papa is smiling but I am not 100% happy, etc.


Thanks for the correction.

The way Raffaele worded that particular sentence about his fear of Guede's version of events is highly indicative of presence at the cottage.
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Offline mikegjames


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 10:33 pm   Post subject:    

No one can argue with the goal of this forum - "to achieve truth and justice for Meredith Kercher." I would only add that truth and justice should extend to everyone involved in this case, that we remember, each day, that Sollecito and Knox are presumed innocent (this will seem a stretch to some given the months of damaging leaks prior to trial from authorities in Perugia) until the facts and a court ruling - including appeals - show otherwise. Is the trial merely a formality to reach a pre-conceived conclusion, or a true test of facts and a search for truth? I certainly hope it's the latter, because truth and justice for Meredith Kercher will not be achieved if innocent people are found guilty and jailed. We may never know exactly what happened that terrible evening, but to discover the real truth of that night would be the best justice of all.
I don't claim to know. I hope the facts in the trial truly inform us all.
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Offline Kermit


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:01 pm   Post subject: MUCH ADO ABOUT NOTHING   

FinnMacCool wrote:
If I remember right, I was the person who was having difficulty accepting that Amanda was hit, given that we hadn't seen any sign of charges being brought against the police for having done it. And, um, still haven't...


I saw your old Haloscan posts, Finn, when I looked for Chris Mellas' accusatory post.

From that first and unique mention by Amanda that she was hit when she didn't give the right answer (in her voluntary memoriale from the afternoon of 6 November 2007) her family, friends and new found Entourage (from FOA to The Food Blogger) took it upon themselves to turn it into the judicial equivalent of a fishing story: the Nazi-like interrogation grew to 14 hours, no sleep, physical and mental torture, unethical suggestive manipulation, etc.

It was telling when, last autumn, lawyer Ghirga denied that Amanda had been hit, much to the chagrin of The Entourage (Candace had some heavy words of disbelief).

And it was telling as well, that Amanda in her most recent spontaneous statement of yesterday, only took the torture and suffering in the police station to the stage of not being able to go to the bathroom ... that is, she didn't get near to repeating the "hit on the head" charge:

"I was only treated like a person after I made those last statements to the police -- then I was allowed to go to the bathroom, have something to drink." Knox, speaking in rapid Italian, then thanked the jury and sat back down in her seat, looking flushed and emotional.

... shame ... so much of The Entourage's hot air wasted for naught.
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:03 pm   Post subject:    

mikegjames wrote:
No one can argue with the goal of this forum - "to achieve truth and justice for Meredith Kercher." I would only add that truth and justice should extend to everyone involved in this case, that we remember, each day, that Sollecito and Knox are presumed innocent (this will seem a stretch to some given the months of damaging leaks prior to trial from authorities in Perugia) until the facts and a court ruling - including appeals - show otherwise. Is the trial merely a formality to reach a pre-conceived conclusion, or a true test of facts and a search for truth? I certainly hope it's the latter, because truth and justice for Meredith Kercher will not be achieved if innocent people are found guilty and jailed. We may never know exactly what happened that terrible evening, but to discover the real truth of that night would be the best justice of all.
I don't claim to know. I hope the facts in the trial truly inform us all.


Hi Mike,

If the Italian authorities really presumed that Knox and Sollecito were innocent they wouldn't have been kept in prison for the past 15 months and be currently on trial for the murder of Meredith Kercher. None of us are obliged to presume that Knox and Sollecito are innocent. That would be extremely silly. The notion of innocent until proven guilty is a legal concept to ensure that defendants get a fair trial and the media are not allowed to state that a defendant is guilty of a crime until they have been convicted.

You've already wrongly attributed quotes to Mignini that he didn't say and now you're stating that the authorities are responsible for damaging leaks. Do you have any proof to support this claim? I know for a fact that some of the leaks have definitely not come from the Italian authorities.

In Italy Prosecutor Mignini is widely known for not leaking. Many of the so-called leaks were information put out in the course of the many hearings. The evidence in this case has in fact long been like an iceberg - all but a tiny fraction of it has remained out of sight.

Media sources have mentioned that many of the leaks have in fact come from defence sources. Skeptical Bystander was offered access to Amanda’s diary, not by the prosecutors, the police or prison guards, but by somebody close to Amanda herself.

I've been extremly impressed with the Italian police and legal system, and I have no doubt that justice will be served.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:26 pm   Post subject:    

TM wrote:

Quote:
If the Italian authorities really presumed that Knox and Sollecito were innocent they wouldn't have been kept in prison for the past 15 months and be currently on trial for the murder of Meredith Kercher. None of us are obliged to presume that Knox and Sollecito are innocent. That would be extremely silly. The notion of innocent until proven guilty is a legal concept to ensure that defendants get a fair trial and the media are not allowed to state that a defendant is guilty of a crime until they have been convicted.


I think it is important to note, however, that the Italian criminal justice system, like ours, is based on the presumption of innocence. But TM is right: no one here is obliged to presume anything. And no two people here have exactly the same view. If I had to guess, I would say that TM is more strongly persuaded than I am of who did what. He has the right to argue his views in this forum. Like everyone who comes here, we require that he provide reasonable grounds for his views.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:40 pm   Post subject: Presumption of Innocence   

mikegjames wrote:
No one can argue with the goal of this forum - "to achieve truth and justice for Meredith Kercher." I would only add that truth and justice should extend to everyone involved in this case, that we remember, each day, that Sollecito and Knox are presumed innocent (this will seem a stretch to some given the months of damaging leaks prior to trial from authorities in Perugia) until the facts and a court ruling - including appeals - show otherwise. Is the trial merely a formality to reach a pre-conceived conclusion, or a true test of facts and a search for truth? I certainly hope it's the latter, because truth and justice for Meredith Kercher will not be achieved if innocent people are found guilty and jailed. We may never know exactly what happened that terrible evening, but to discover the real truth of that night would be the best justice of all.
I don't claim to know. I hope the facts in the trial truly inform us all.



mikegjames, welcome to Perugia Murder File. With the greatest of respect to you, your insistance that we presume the innocence of the suspects leading up to and beyond not only the trial's conclusion, but those of any subsequent appeals, would be far more credible if your deeclared senitiment applied not only to Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, but also to Rudy Guede. Have you therefore then concluded him to be guilty, contrary to the spirit of your own counsel? Such lofty sentiments, to have validity, must be applied equally, otherwise the cynical of those amongst us may consider you to have an agenda. Indeed, we are already aware that you have a vested interest in seeing Amanda Knox aquitted of all wrong doing. We are also aware that the fates of Knox and Sollecito are pretty much tied together in this case, so that if one goes down it is almost inevitable that the other will also, therefore your vested interest extends beyond Knox alone to also include Sollecito. The same does not apply to Rudy Guede, in fact, his ever being found innocent would be...'inconvenient', which may well explain why your post contained no concern for his being presumed innocent. I also wonder, is it common in the United States for the general public to assume a convicted criminal's innocence until any potential appeals have been applied for and concluded?

Moreover, the 'presumption of innocence' is a mechanism, right and properly, for the legal system, not for the general public. As free citizens, we are entitled to deliberate and to form our own considered opinions, we are not 'compelled' to 'presume' anything. Thought police have no jurisdiction. either here or anywhere else within a free society. The trade-off for that, is that we as members of the public have no say in either the verdict or the potential sentence, which therefore makes your concern somewhat unwarranted.

That said, I would say that simply based on my own observations, that actually very few members here have 'fully' made up their minds as of yet. Are the suspects guilty? If so, guilty of 'what' exactly?

Welcome to you once again.


Michael

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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:41 pm   Post subject:    

Greggy wrote:
1. Hello Nicki,

Thank you for clarifying the DNA evidence against RS. It looks like significant jail time for RS for participating in the cover-up and obstruction of justice. I am still undecided about whether RS was directly involved in MK's murder, but it intuitively seems like he would have already confessed to only being involved in the cover-up, if he wasn't involved in the murder.


2. Hello GreenWyvern,

I greatly enjoyed reading your Samuel Johnson quote on the role of lawyers. This is the only forum analyzing the MK murder that can improve your literary education. One subtle thing I have noticed over the years is that a defense lawyer, whom thinks his client didn't commit the murder, will proclaim his client to be innocent; but a defense lawyer, whom thinks that his client might have committed the murder, will proclaim his client to be not guilty. We will have to see how AK's and RS's Defense Teams refer to their clients during this trial.


3. On AK's Non-Attendance at MK's Memorial Service
I'm not surprised AK did not attend the memorial service for MK. From my readings of the perspectives of murderers, and especially serial murderers, an item stands out. It seems that many of them, in order to kill someone, have to dehumanize the victim. They justify their actions by acting like the person was sub-human, both during and after the murder in their comments. So to AK, in my opinion, MK no longer existed and was a dead sub-human not worthy of a memorial service. She betrayed this attitude during the waiting session at the police station with MK's friends by acting so insensitive and blunt about MK's horrific death. In my opinion, we should be glad the Judge kept her locked up - the wench is dangerous.


Hello Greggy,

The clues against Sollecito surely look heavy. It should be clear to everybody by now, that his DNA on the bra clasp is not a consequence of contamination. I am not sure about his role though-participating in the clean -up and obstructing justice would probably earn him a sentence between 6 and 12 years or so, whereas a murder sentence is much heavier: from 30 years to life. So why hasn't he spoken up until now, if he has been only marginally involved in the crime?Well if this is the case, I guess his lawyers are trying to get him off all charges; if they succeed in doing a good job of murking the waters using the contamination and non- reliable DNA arguments, they might be able to plant the seed of doubt in the jury-which I doubt, but one never knows...After all, it wasn't his DNA found on the murder weapon...IN this case, he might be able to avoid a sentence , and walk out thanks to an "insufficienza di prove"-or "insufficient evidence" verdict-Not exactly like being cleared off charges, but surely better than having to serve a number of years in prison.


Last edited by nicki on Mon Mar 02, 2009 12:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Greggy


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:57 pm   Post subject:    

Hello Mikegjames,

I think I wrote a highly similar post to yours a couple of months ago on another forum. Since that time, however, I have looked at the evidence closely, some of which was presented at RG's trial and will be presented more fully soon, and made up my mind about the guilt of RG and AK. I think AK and RS are getting a fair, deliberate trial and that it will work its way to a just conclusion. The American and Italian justice systems are very different, but I can see specific advantages they each have at getting at the truth.

I think you will find most of the people on this forum are open-minded and will listen to different opinions and perspectives. They don't want innocent people locked up; they want the perpetrators punished and for MK's parents to have a full explanation of what occurred and why it happened. There is just something about this senseless murder that makes people angry. My guess is because a lot of us have daughters living away from us and worry that something horrible like what befell MK could happen to them. Brrr
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 12:14 am   Post subject:    

mikegjames wrote:
No one can argue with the goal of this forum - "to achieve truth and justice for Meredith Kercher." I would only add that truth and justice should extend to everyone involved in this case, that we remember, each day, that Sollecito and Knox are presumed innocent (this will seem a stretch to some given the months of damaging leaks prior to trial from authorities in Perugia) until the facts and a court ruling - including appeals - show otherwise. Is the trial merely a formality to reach a pre-conceived conclusion, or a true test of facts and a search for truth? I certainly hope it's the latter, because truth and justice for Meredith Kercher will not be achieved if innocent people are found guilty and jailed. We may never know exactly what happened that terrible evening, but to discover the real truth of that night would be the best justice of all.
I don't claim to know. I hope the facts in the trial truly inform us all.


Mike,

Ms Knox and Mr Sollecito are the defendants in the ongoing trial. They are entitled to presumption of innocence, and the trial is FAR from being a formality. It is a process whose aim is to establish the truth about the murder of Meredith Kercher, the victim of a heinous crime. A crime so brutal to shock even those cops who are used to see even the bloodiest crime scenes.The "damaging leaks" you're mentioning have all originated from the defense team, and not from the authorities in Perugia-that are known to be merciless regarding "leakers"-see Dr Lalli who was immediately fired following his revelations to the press about Meredith autopsy results.

This anti-investigators, anti -Italian judicial system campaign has already proved to backfire..and besides that, it is becoming quite boring..Don't you think the time has come to be a bit more creative , and concentrate on truly meaningful things e.g. an alibi the two defendants agree upon?
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Offline mistercrunch


Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:43 pm

Posts: 160

Location: Germany

PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 12:33 am   Post subject:    

nicki wrote:

The clues against Sollecito surely look heavy. It should be clear to everybody by now, that his DNA on the bra clasp is not a consequence of contamination. I am not sure about his role though-participating in the clean -up and obstructing justice would probably earn him a sentence between 6 and 12 years or so, whereas a murder sentence is much heavier: from 30 years to life. So why hasn't he spoken up until now, if he has been only marginally involved in the crime?Well if this is the case, I guess his lawyers are trying to get him off all charges; if they succeed in doing a good job of murking the waters using the contamination and non- reliable DNA arguments, they might be able to plant the seed of doubt in the jury. After all, it wasn't his DNA found on the murder weapon...IN this case, he might be able to avoid a sentence , and walk out thanks to an "insufficienza di prove"-or "insufficient evidence" verdict-Not exactly like being cleared off charges, but surely better than having to serve a number of years in prison.


For now, his lawyers may still have some hope to get him out of it, this looks like to be the strategy. For now, they still clutch on this contamination-myth and the poorly-done inspection of the crime-scene (from their point). If RS was "only" involved in the clean-up/staging-part, we have a good chance that he will break as evidence gets stronger and stronger. If he is involved from the beginning of this tragedy, i still cannot imagine how the whole *thing may come to the light.

Then, we could get a real circumstantial evidence lawsuit.

*P.S.: Sorry for using the word "thing" on that horrible story, hope that doesn´t sound disrespectful but i found no translation for the german word "Abläufe", maybe Anne could help me.


Last edited by mistercrunch on Mon Mar 02, 2009 12:49 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Offline nicki

Forensics Moderator


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:27 am

Posts: 847

PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 12:44 am   Post subject:    

mistercrunch wrote:
nicki wrote:

The clues against Sollecito surely look heavy. It should be clear to everybody by now, that his DNA on the bra clasp is not a consequence of contamination. I am not sure about his role though-participating in the clean -up and obstructing justice would probably earn him a sentence between 6 and 12 years or so, whereas a murder sentence is much heavier: from 30 years to life. So why hasn't he spoken up until now, if he has been only marginally involved in the crime?Well if this is the case, I guess his lawyers are trying to get him off all charges; if they succeed in doing a good job of murking the waters using the contamination and non- reliable DNA arguments, they might be able to plant the seed of doubt in the jury. After all, it wasn't his DNA found on the murder weapon...IN this case, he might be able to avoid a sentence , and walk out thanks to an "insufficienza di prove"-or "insufficient evidence" verdict-Not exactly like being cleared off charges, but surely better than having to serve a number of years in prison.


For now, his lawyers may still have some hope to get him out of it, this looks like to be the strategy. For now, they still clutch on this contamination-myth and the poorly-done inspection of the crime-scene (from their point). If RS was "only" involved in the clean-up/staging-part, we have a good chance that he will break as evidence gets stronger and stronger. If he is involved from the beginning of this tragedy, i still cannot imagine how the whole thing may come to the light.

Than, we could get a real circumstantial evidence lawsuit.


Yeah MC, I agree. "contamination, incompetence, poor match" that's all they can claim.How successful they'll be, it remains to be seen.
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Offline Greggy


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Location: Southern USA

PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:22 am   Post subject:    

Hello Nicki,

I think you are right. It seems like RS's Defense Team is going for the hazy "insufficienza di prove" (insufficient evidence) verdict on both the obstruction of justice and murder charges. That is a dangerous roll of the dice if RS is guilty of the cover-up and obstruction of justice, but not murder. You never know what a jury will decide. You can bet Barry Scheck isn't on Louise Woodward's Christmas card mailing list.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:31 am   Post subject:    

Greggy wrote:

Quote:
I think you will find most of the people on this forum are open-minded and will listen to different opinions and perspectives. They don't want innocent people locked up; they want the perpetrators punished and for MK's parents to have a full explanation of what occurred and why it happened. There is just something about this senseless murder that makes people angry. My guess is because a lot of us have daughters living away from us and worry that something horrible like what befell MK could happen to them. Brrr


Greggy is right. Nobody here wants innocent people locked up. In the past couple of days, this board and the non-profit website truejustice.org have been referred to as "anti-Knox". One rather delirious poster refers to us as Mignini youth, and insists that we take orders from or are related to Prosecutor Mignini. Others, usually anonymous, have been calling us "haters". None of these statements is true. We are pro-victim. We don't hate anyone. We are watching events in Perugia; in fact, our posters hail from all over the world, including Italy. We all come here to discuss the evidence and the media coverage.

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Offline anne


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Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:04 pm

Posts: 173

Location: Berlin Kreuzberg

Highscores: 3

PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:16 am   Post subject:    

mistercrunch wrote:
nicki wrote:

The clues against Sollecito surely look heavy. It should be clear to everybody by now, that his DNA on the bra clasp is not a consequence of contamination. I am not sure about his role though-participating in the clean -up and obstructing justice would probably earn him a sentence between 6 and 12 years or so, whereas a murder sentence is much heavier: from 30 years to life. So why hasn't he spoken up until now, if he has been only marginally involved in the crime?Well if this is the case, I guess his lawyers are trying to get him off all charges; if they succeed in doing a good job of murking the waters using the contamination and non- reliable DNA arguments, they might be able to plant the seed of doubt in the jury. After all, it wasn't his DNA found on the murder weapon...IN this case, he might be able to avoid a sentence , and walk out thanks to an "insufficienza di prove"-or "insufficient evidence" verdict-Not exactly like being cleared off charges, but surely better than having to serve a number of years in prison.


For now, his lawyers may still have some hope to get him out of it, this looks like to be the strategy. For now, they still clutch on this contamination-myth and the poorly-done inspection of the crime-scene (from their point). If RS was "only" involved in the clean-up/staging-part, we have a good chance that he will break as evidence gets stronger and stronger. If he is involved from the beginning of this tragedy, i still cannot imagine how the whole *thing may come to the light.

Then, we could get a real circumstantial evidence lawsuit.

*P.S.: Sorry for using the word "thing" on that horrible story, hope that doesn´t sound disrespectful but i found no translation for the german word "Abläufe", maybe Anne could help me.


Moin Mr Crunch,

go to www.dict.cc and chose. I am not sure. "Order of events" maybe?
Its my favourite translator for missing words. It even has all the well known sayings in petto :D ->i just found out that in petto means something completly different in german than it does in english...

Skep, someone is having a go on you again on the Frank blog.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:17 am   Post subject:    

Anne wrote:

Quote:
Skep, someone is having a go on you again on the Frank blog.


Thanks for the heads up, Anne. I'll probably resist the temptation to have a look tonight. I've got season 6 of The Sopranos to watch! :)

EDIT: I had a quick look. In fact, I have an alibi. At the precise time some nut thought I was posting at Frank's, I was watching a bunch of 8-year old boys play their last basketball game of the season. I have witnesses! I think I'll have a chip implanted so that my precise positioning can be ascertained at all times. :lol:

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Offline mikegjames


Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:19 am

Posts: 5

PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:17 am   Post subject: Re: Presumption of Innocence   

Michael wrote: With the greatest of respect to you, your insistance that we presume the innocence of the suspects leading up to and beyond not only the trial's conclusion, but those of any subsequent appeals, would be far more credible if your deeclared senitiment applied not only to Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, but also to Rudy Guede. Have you therefore then concluded him to be guilty, contrary to the spirit of your own counsel? Such lofty sentiments, to have validity, must be applied equally, otherwise the cynical of those amongst us may consider you to have an agenda. Indeed, we are already aware that you have a vested interest in seeing Amanda Knox aquitted

My response:
Well, how misinformed I've been to assume that the presumption of innocence was something to be taken seriously (the more so in recent times as we've found, through new DNA techniques, the guilty and convicted found innocent again), that it's a mere legality. Oh well, back to school.
Of course people are free to make their own judgements about guilt or innocence - many in the various Knox blogs certainly have - but the only verdict that counts is the one in court.
As to Guede, of course I would extend the same presumption of innocence, but he's already been convicted and is serving his time, so your question makes no sense. I didn't "conclude him to be guilty" - that was the legal outcome.
As to my "vested interest in seeing Amanda Knox acquitted" - no, my interest is in a fair and speedy trial (meeting only 2 days a week with so much at stake is ludicrous). Let me turn the question back to you, and answer honestly: do you have a vested interest in seeing Amanda Knox found guilty?
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Offline IM


Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:38 am

Posts: 23

PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:56 am   Post subject:    

The itlalian courts
have held AK and RS for over a year in a cell.
Are they presummed innocent?
Not totally, obviously the courts feel
they have enough evidence to prove these two
Guilty.
They didnt arrest you, nor I.
They arrested these two and not because
they think they are innocent.
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Offline Kermit


User avatar


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:37 am

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:07 am   Post subject: Re: Presumption of Innocence   

mikegjames wrote:
the only verdict that counts is the one in court. As to Guede, of course I would extend the same presumption of innocence, but he's already been convicted and is serving his time, so your question makes no sense. I didn't "conclude him to be guilty" - that was the legal outcome.
...my interest is in a fair and speedy trial (meeting only 2 days a week with so much at stake is ludicrous). ... do you have a vested interest in seeing Amanda Knox found guilty?

Hi MikeGJames,

Of course, the legal verdict is what this trial is all about.

Ref. Guede, the Italian legal system automatically appeals guilty verdicts, whether the suspect wants to or not, so if you're looking to accurately describe Guede's situation, you could say he has been found "guilty, pending appeal".

If your interest is a fair and speedy trial, I guess those concepts are adapted to the specific jurisdiction this crime and trial are in. Amanda's, Raffaele's and Rudy's trial (and the prior investigation) are following the same steps and processes as any other serious crime in Italy, in which any other American, Italian or naturalised immigrant has been in. Someone on another board described the pre-trial phase of this crime as unfair. Perhaps Amanda has had to sit it out in prison, however, thanks to the pre-trial phase, Patrick was freed from prison, then subsequently had the charges against him eliminated (rather than having to wait for a trial to have that happen). So you see that there are benefits from the design of the system.

Does anyone here have a vested interest in Amanda being found guilty? I believe that everyone - each and everyone of us would shout out a resounding NO! I have no books to sell if she is found either guilty or non-guilty. I have no movie to make which depends on some specific outcome. I am not a television personality whose image (and subsequently, value) could suffer if she is found guilty after all the support and explanations I've given to Amanda. I do not depend on voters support which could wane in the next elections for judges if I've been shown to involve my current judicial position inappropriately in this case. I am not a private detective who has been ridiculed and could be subject to not being invited back on important cases if my analysis of aspects of this case turns out to be completely off the mark.

Here, we just want to arrive at the determine of who is guilty of each one of the various crimes (remember, you can't simplify it and ask "Is Amanda guilty?" ... you have to ask: "Is Amanda guilty of Charge A, Charge B, Charge C, ....?".).

I would agree with you that we are not interested in finding someone unjustly guilty of any one of those different crimes. If that requires investing some more time in the trial - to ensure that the outcome is just -then so be it.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:31 am   Post subject:    

MikeGJames wrote:
As to my "vested interest in seeing Amanda Knox acquitted" - no, my interest is in a fair and speedy trial (meeting only 2 days a week with so much at stake is ludicrous).


Mike,

The Italian system is what it is.

Legal systems across the western world are based on one of two historic systems. Common law and Napoleonic law. It would be fair to say that both have their advantages and disadvantages, but thats another argument. The legal system in Italy is descended from inquisitorial Napoleonic law.

This case is in Italy and so their's is the system with which everyone must work

Its form is much more of an ongoing inquiry than a straightforward adversarial system. The judges themselves have far more control over the direction the trial takes and ask as many questions themselves as do the opposing attorneys.

A complaint against common law trials is that the jury have probably forgotten much of what happened at the start of a trial when they come to deliberate at the end.

It's not known exactly what happens in the off days of the Italian system but it is a fair bet that the judges have a chance to discuss the evidence of the preceeding days, and in light of that, plan some of the questions they will ask the witnesses who it is known will be appearing at the forthcoming session.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:23 am   Post subject:    

Nothing new but more verbal detail from the trial:

Inspector Rita Ficarra told the court in Perugia: “She was treated firmly and courteously.”

At that a lawyer
{Patrick's lawyer} cut in angrily, saying: “This is not Guantanamo.”

The exchange came as Inspector Ficarra, of the city’s Flying Squad, described 21-year-old Knox’s bizarre behaviour after her arrest following the killing in 2007.

“I was in the elevator and when I got to the floor where the Flying Squad department is the door opened and I saw Amanda doing floor exercises,” he
{sic} said.

“She was doing the splits, cartwheels and arching herself backwards, pressing her hands on the floor. I said to her, ‘What on earth are you doing? Is this the right way to behave?’

“Amanda told me that she was waiting for colleagues to finish with Raffaele [her then boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito] and that she was getting bored and fed up with being at the police station.

“I told her that she may well be tired and bored but that a friend of hers had been killed, in the house they shared and that if she was at the police station, then it was because her presence was useful to find the killer.

“I told her off and said she should behave better – I knew she had also been kissing and cuddling Raffaele while she was there and jumping up and down.

“I also told her that she was at the police station because contradictions had emerged in what she had told us and what others had told us – I told her she had denied using drugs but we knew that she did.”

The Inspector said: “Amanda was asked who Meredith’s friends were and she got her mobile phone out and went through the names.

“When she got to Patrick Lumumba’s name she put her hands in her hair and said, ‘It’s him, It was him. He is mad. He killed her’. Then she began to cry.”


Marco Giannangeli in the Daily Express
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Offline daisysteiner


Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:59 pm

Posts: 490

PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:10 am   Post subject:    

Hey everyone Just catching up here and elsewhere. Interesting weekend with the evidence about the shoeprint and the "interrogation". Just proves the FOA claims are total nonsense, and more to the point, that Amanda has been lying to them. She couldn't sit there in court and not object to people saying she wasn't hit, it would have outed her as a liar. Chamomile tea is 'orrible btw, Jasmine tea ftw! Allegedly Chamomile was the date rape drug of medieval times...LOL Candace you eejit for letting that stand!

I saw the cell assault in Seattle on Sky News. While it has no real bearing on the Kercher case, it does show that IF Knox was hit by the Italian police, it doesn't make the Italians unique. There is no high ground here for any nationality, there are scum bent coppers everywhere. I just happen to believe that the scum police of Italy were NOT in Perugia in Nov 2007. From what I can see, the with the exception of the saga of the migrating bra clasp, everything has been to the same standards you would find in most Western countries. Including the playing of two suspects against each other, which I see the FOA are bleating is wrong. Btw, if Knox was hit by the Italian police, I will be delivering presents in mid December via Reindeer sleigh.

Been reading Perugia Shock for a laugh and it seems this site and it's posters are being bribed by Mignini. Well take this as my formal complaint as my cheque from Italy hasn't arrived this month. Could someone chase it up for me as I'm going away for a couple of days with work? Usual account for deposit people, thanks. Euro's not Sterling ta :D

If anyone takes the above paragraph seriously, then my bet is they dined at Salty's in the early part of this year and paid well over the odds for the pleasure...
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:22 am   Post subject:    

Something I noticed on page 2 of this report in The Times

Marco Chiacchiera, deputy head of the Perugia flying squad, told the court Ms Kercher's body had been found lying "in a lake of blood". He said Ms Knox and Mr Sollecito were unco-operative and appeared to resent the police investigation...Mr Chiacchiera said police checks showed that claims by Mr Sollecito that he had received a phone call at home at 11pm and had downloaded films on his computer were untrue. He said he had been shocked by Japanese Manga comics found at Mr Sollecito's flat "combining pornography with horror". Police said both Mr Sollecito and Mr Guede, who claim not to know each other, used nicknames derived from Manga comics.

The judge has yet to decide whether a police video of the crime scene can be shown to the court. The footage, which The Times has seen, shows police forensic officers in protective gear examining the extensive bloodstains on the floor and walls and on Ms Kercher's face, suggesting a frenzied attack...Mr Profazio said his officers had worn protective clothing at all times and had not contaminated the crime scene as the defence alleges. He told the court that Ms Knox's and Mr Sollecito's mobile phones had both been switched off at 8.30 on the evening of the murder and not switched on again until the next morning.

Giulia Bongiorno, a lawyer for Mr Sollecito, contested this. She also contested a police claim that Mr Sollecito's DNA is on a piece of material torn from Ms Kercher's bra strap, saying it had been only found and tested a month and a half after the crime and had therefore been contaminated while lying undetected on the floor of Ms Kercher's bedroom...





Now I believe that the decision the Judge will make about this film is whether it will be shown in open court with reporters present or whether it will be shown to the trial with reporters excluded in deference to the wishes of the Kerchers as explained in his ruling before the trial started.

This begs the question as to who showed the film to the Times. I don't for a minute believe it was the prosecution, I can only assume it was shown to the Times by one of the two defense teams. Both are known to be in possession of this film.
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Offline Catnip


User avatar


Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:08 am

Posts: 2997

Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 12:36 pm   Post subject:    

mistercrunch wrote:
... i still cannot imagine how the whole *thing may come to the light.
....

*P.S.: Sorry for using the word "thing" on that horrible story, hope that doesn´t sound disrespectful but i found no translation for the german word "Abläufe", maybe Anne could help me.


Anne,
Very useful, that dictionary link you provided. Thank you.
Dictionaries are treasures, of more than one kind.


Herr Geknarre Knabbern-knuspern! (Mr Crunchcrunch)

Auf Englisch heisst Abläufe <course of events>, oder <matter> (hier, auch etwa <story>).

Mit herzliche Schnurren (prrrrr)
Katzenkraut :)
(alias erba gattaia)


Allow me this small trifle, and I recharge my batteries, and then back into the fray!
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Offline LucyJ


Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:11 pm

Posts: 23

PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:00 pm   Post subject:    

mikegjames wrote:
No one can argue with the goal of this forum - "to achieve truth and justice for Meredith Kercher." I would only add that truth and justice should extend to everyone involved in this case, that we remember, each day, that Sollecito and Knox are presumed innocent........ Is the trial merely a formality to reach a pre-conceived conclusion, or a true test of facts and a search for truth? I certainly hope it's the latter, because truth and justice for Meredith Kercher will not be achieved if innocent people are found guilty and jailed. We may never know exactly what happened that terrible evening, but to discover the real truth of that night would be the best justice of all.
I don't claim to know. I hope the facts in the trial truly inform us all.


The concept of "innocent until proven guilty" refers to the legal process - that is, that the prosecutors must prove the defendents' guilt, rather than the defendents having to prove their innocence.

The prosecuors present their case; the defendents and their lawyers have the chance to dispute the relevance and /or validity of any evidence presented.

If it looks as if the trial is a "formality to reach a foregone conclusion", then that is perhaps indicative of the fact that defence arguments are , so far, weak or non-existant. Still, early days yet. We shall see.
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Offline mojo


Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:31 pm

Posts: 225

PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:03 pm   Post subject:    

Brian S. wrote:

This begs the question as to who showed the film to the Times. I don't for a minute believe it was the prosecution, I can only assume it was shown to the Times by one of the two defense teams. Both are known to be in possession of this film.


which also begs the further question of what do the defence think they have to gain from exploiting a horrific scene such as this?

thinking out loud: make the case so sensational as to not guarantee their clients a fair trial perhaps??..and which set of defence lawyers showed it to the Times??
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Offline Jools


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:05 pm   Post subject:    

Brian wrote:
"This begs the question as to who showed the film to the Times. I don't for a minute believe it was the prosecution, I can only assume it was shown to the Times by one of the two defense teams. Both are known to be in possession of this film."

Hi Brian remember that Amanda Knox parents gave an interview to The Sunday Times:

Amanda Knox: the first in-depth interview with her parents
http://tinyurl.com/5s6oe7

And a few days later Richard Owen for the Times also wrote about the case:
http://tinyurl.com/djzbw5

I doubt that the Sollecito's were the only family leaking the film to the media.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:23 pm   Post subject:    

In an inventory of the policemen witnesses of the last two days of the trial I found these people:

Domenico Giacinto Profazio - then chief of police squad
Marco Chiacchiera - then vice chief of police squad
Monica Napoleoni - [then deputy?) head of the Perugia Homicide Group

Rita Ficarra - who questioned Amanda before 1:45am Nov 6
Lorena Zugarini - part-time witness of the questioning led by Ficarra (kicked in the door downstairs on Nov 2)

Armando Finzi - who found the knife at Sollecito's place and smelled bleach
Stefano Gubbiotti - who sent the knife in a box to Scientifica

Was there anybody else?
(Earlier 12 or 17 witnesses had been planned)


Last edited by bolint on Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:45 pm   Post subject:    

Earlier I asked why neither Amanda nor Raffaele mentioned Jovana Popovic (at least in what has been published).

I still don't know. She would support their version and still they don't talk about her.

Might it have been that she had seen Amanda in the white skirt?
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Offline Catnip


User avatar


Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:08 am

Posts: 2997

Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:03 pm   Post subject: Spontaneous declarations 28 Feb 2009   

Brian has already covered the witness testimony.

Time for Amanda and Raffaele’s statements from the dock.

I think it was bolint who earlier explained the legal position that Raffaele was complaining about his spontaneous declaration.

Here is the text – or rather, texts, since no two reports are 100% identical – for both RS and AK. (The AK Italian is as is).

Quote:

RS:
On the night between 5 and 6 November, I was in the police station for ages. More than once I asked and made it known that I wanted to contact my father. I wanted to talk to him in any manner, but they denied it. I asked again, as an alternative, to be able to suspend the interview and to call a lawyer, but this too was denied me.

I do not want to make accusations, but I have heard inaccurate things and I want to make certain clarifications on some matters. And when I had been taken to prison, I was put in a cell and I was not able to speak with anybody – continued Sollecito – neither with my father nor with a lawyer, up until I appeared before GIP (Investigating Judge) Matteini.

They kept me in fact barefoot for the entire night until the following morning (when they searched my house). They left me without socks without explaining the reason and no-one told me anything about any print.

Regarding the question of the confidences made to Amanda about my use of stupefying substances other than hashish, I can confirm that this confidence occurred and was regarding what I would define as an “experiment” when I was about 17-18 years old. Some years have passed [since then] and I have never touched anything of a similar nature. I realised the mistake at the time. Every now and then I’ve used cannabis. I’ll let you draw your own conclusions.
[ link ] La Nazione 28 Feb 2009



Quote:

RS:
I was at the police station for ages – he said – More than once I asked and made known that I wanted to contact my father, but they denied it to me. I asked also to be able to suspend the interview and call a lawyer. But even this was denied me. And when I was taken to prison, I was put in a cell and I was not able to speak with anyone until I appeared before the GIP.

They left me without socks for the whole night without explaining the reason to me and no one said anything to me about prints.

[ link ] Libero 28 Feb 2009




Quote:

AK
“I was treated like a person only after that I had made of statements, and that’s it [basta].”
... With an uncertain and imprecise Italian, Amanda Knox explained that the police then offered something to drink, to go to the bathroom and to get something to eat. “Before this, it was as I said.” The American student described herself as “frankly displeased of how much I heard of not true from the witnesses”.

{RS statements same as first report}
[ link ] Affari 28 Feb 2009


AK and RS: partially paraphrased, partly quoted directly as per previous quotes.

Then
Quote:


Sollecito at the end made “a clarification” about a confidence made to Amanda, of which the investigators made mention, on the use of stupefants other than hashish. “That confidence,” he explained, “occurred. It was, if we can call it that, an experiment that I did when I was 17-18 years old. I’ve never touched anything similar since. I used cannabis, that you can read in the court documents. I leave the conclusions to you.

Amanda spoke in Italian in the courtroom, without an interpreter. She referred to when she was in the police station, before her and Raffaele’s arrest, something to eat and drink was offered to her. “Before this,” she affirmed in a somewhat uncertain Italian, “it was as I have said”.
[ link ] TGCOM 28 Feb 2009


Quote:

AK: “What I have heard is not true,” claims Knox in an uncertain Italian. “I was treated like a person only after I made declarations,” she adds. “I believe her,” says father Curt, also in court today

Then Sollecito “I made it known to the police,” he says, “that I wanted to call my father but they refused”. He claims then if having been left “bare foot” during the interrogation without anything explaining the reason. “And then I asked,” he therefore affirms, “to suspend the interview to have a lawyer but even this was refused me.” The young man harps back to the confidence made to Knox, referred to by the investigators, of having made use of other drugs besides hashish. “It’s true,” admits Raffaele, “it happened. It was an experiment but a lot of time has passed and I haven’t touched anything like it since.”
[ link ] Unione SARDA 28 Feb 2009



Quote:

{AK: described as "quick with her reaction" to the police statement about being treated well}
{RS described as "complaining about his treatment"}

- quotes as per other articles

[ link ] Corriere 28 Feb 2009
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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:13 pm   Post subject:    

bolint wrote:
Earlier I asked why neither Amanda nor Raffaele mentioned Jovana Popovic (at least in what has been published).

I still don't know. She would support their version and still they don't talk about her.

Might it have been that she had seen Amanda in the white skirt?


Do you mean this white skirt (from the shopping afterwards)?


Over at La Repubblica
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Offline Greggy


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:38 pm   Post subject:    

Regarding RS's Japanese Manga Collection:

Just so my fellow commentators without teenagers are informed, extremely few Japanese Manga comics are of the sordid Hentai sort that RS is reported to have collected. His specialized manga variety had to be difficult to find and alludes to his strange interests. There is no correlation between reading manga and being violent. When I was last in Japan, it seemed like everyone was reading manga on the subways, with the ladies tending towards reading romantic interaction manga and the guys towards action heroes manga. There are small shops of manga being sold by street-side merchants everywhere and a huge 5-story department store of them in Akihabara, the electronic district of Tokyo. Only a very small section of the Akihabara department store sold hentai manga and they were completely isolated from young people in a restricted location and in clear wrappers. At Anime conventions in the USA, the same is true on the trade show floors where the majority of people visiting this section are bored, titillated Dads, who got roped into taking their anime costume-clad teenager to the convention. In the USA, most of the manga readers are excitedly looking forward to the release of The Watchmen animated movie later this week. If the MK trial concludes the way I think it might, RS will get his earliest chance to see The Watchmen in 2019.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:40 pm   Post subject:    

"Do you mean this white skirt (from the shopping afterwards)? "

Yes that skirt, but not afterwards.
Popovic went to RS's flat at about 17:50 Nov 1 and there she saw Amanda writing in the computer.
Raffaele in his diary claims that Amanda changed clothes and then wore the white skirt when she returned from the cottage the next morning, but he doesn't remember what she had worn before.

The mystery woman in white clothes on the CCTV footage at the cottage gates shortly before 21:00, however, wore a similar skirt. Meredith, howvever, wore jeans.


Last edited by bolint on Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Principessa Etrusca


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:40 pm   Post subject:    

bolint wrote:
Earlier I asked why neither Amanda nor Raffaele mentioned Jovana Popovic (at least in what has been published).

I still don't know. She would support their version and still they don't talk about her.

Might it have been that she had seen Amanda in the white skirt?


This witness's account does not support Knox's and Sollecito's version where it really matters to them, she only confirmed that they were at Sollecito's flat in the afternoon, before her lesson, and again at 8:40 in the evening. Meredith didn't get home till after 9 and I believe that it has been established that she was not attacked until after 9:30. It really doesn't matter where AK and RS were before that time.

However, she might be a character witness for Raffaele and confirm that he was kind and helpful to her.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:23 pm   Post subject:    

Jools wrtoe:

Quote:
Brian wrote:
"This begs the question as to who showed the film to the Times. I don't for a minute believe it was the prosecution, I can only assume it was shown to the Times by one of the two defense teams. Both are known to be in possession of this film."

Hi Brian remember that Amanda Knox parents gave an interview to The Sunday Times:

Amanda Knox: the first in-depth interview with her parents
http://tinyurl.com/5s6oe7

And a few days later Richard Owen for the Times also wrote about the case:
http://tinyurl.com/djzbw5

I doubt that the Sollecito's were the only family leaking the film to the media.


And let's not forget that, in addition to being offered a look at the diary, I was also offered a private screening of the film by Chris Mellas. For the record, I did not accept either offer. We also know that Charlie Wilkes has seen it (not to mention other friends, such as Goofy, Anne Bremner, etc.), and I doubt it was leaked to him by the prosecution.

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Offline mojo


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:48 pm   Post subject:    

Greggy wrote:
Regarding RS's Japanese Manga Collection:

Just so my fellow commentators without teenagers are informed, extremely few Japanese Manga comics are of the sordid Hentai sort that RS is reported to have collected. His specialized manga variety had to be difficult to find and alludes to his strange interests. There is no correlation between reading manga and being violent. When I was last in Japan, it seemed like everyone was reading manga on the subways, with the ladies tending towards reading romantic interaction manga and the guys towards action heroes manga. There are small shops of manga being sold by street-side merchants everywhere and a huge 5-story department store of them in Akihabara, the electronic district of Tokyo. Only a very small section of the Akihabara department store sold hentai manga and they were completely isolated from young people in a restricted location and in clear wrappers. At Anime conventions in the USA, the same is true on the trade show floors where the majority of people visiting this section are bored, titillated Dads, who got roped into taking their anime costume-clad teenager to the convention. In the USA, most of the manga readers are excitedly looking forward to the release of The Watchmen animated movie later this week. If the MK trial concludes the way I think it might, RS will get his earliest chance to see The Watchmen in 2019.


i know little about this, but the chan subculture would make the acquisition of this stuff no more difficult than a few mouse clicks, i suspect.
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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:52 pm   Post subject:    

An Italian view FOA and Seattle:

La Nazione


Last edited by Brian S. on Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:54 pm   Post subject:    

Bolint wrote:

Quote:
In an inventory of the policemen witnesses of the last two days of the trial I found these people:

Domenico Giacinto Profazio - then chief of police squad
Marco Chiacchiera - then vice chief of police squad
Monica Napoleoni - [then deputy?) head of the Perugia Homicide Group

Rita Ficarra - who questioned Amanda before 1:45am Nov 6
Lorena Zugarini - part-time witness of the questioning led by Ficarra (kicked in the door downstairs on Nov 2)

Armando Finzi - who found the knife at Sollecito's place and smelled bleach
Stefano Gubbiotti - who sent the knife in a box to Scientifica

Was there anybody else?
(Earlier 12 or 17 witnesses had been planned)


Hi Bolint,
I changed "felt" bleach to "smelled" bleach. I don't know what your native language is, but in French (for example) the verb "sentir" means both to smell (odorat - the nose) and to feel (toucher - to touch with the hands - or to have a sentiment). Finzi testified that the smell (odor) of bleach was strong.

As for the police witnesses, Curt Knox noted that there would be 12 in all (which meant a weak case for him?). I read somewhere that it took longer to hear testimony from these witnesses than planned, such that fewer were heard on Friday. I suppose this means that not all were heard on Saturday and that this portion of the trial will be wrapped up on the 14th. Just a guess.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:08 pm   Post subject: Trial Dates   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Someone asked when the next set of hearings would be held. The answer is below (source: Andrea Vogt article in the PI):

Quote:
Speaking emotionally after the hearing, Knox's father, Curt, said he believed his daughter's version of events. He plans to visit Knox in jail Tuesday, but is scheduled to return to Seattle before the next set of hearings, scheduled for March 13 and 14.



I'll just also add for the information of the membership, all the trial dates that have been issued are entered into the PMF forum calendar. The calendar can be accessed from the tool bar near the top of the PMF board (where you can also access your email, profile, click to sign in/out etc,.). Here's the direct link to this month's section:
MARCH and here's the direct link for the entries for APRIL

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:40 pm   Post subject:    

Here's a translation of the highlights of the article in La Nazione. In fact, it mainly summarizes the content of the Guardian article, but begins with a description of the video from Seattle, in which a police officer is seen being quite rough with a 15-year old in a holding cell. I don't know if it is deliberate irony or excessive subtlety, but the journalist does not mention that Anne Bremner is defending the officer under investigation, only that she is spearheading the Friends of Amanda movement in Seattle. However, the article ends with the description given under oath of the questioning of Knox and Sollecito.

Here are the highlights:

While Seattle is on the Amanda is innocent side, using the media to openly criticizing the way she was allegedly treated by Italian investigators, the world wide web quickly propagated a video in which we see a deputy officer from Seattle, Paul Schene 31 years old, strike a young girl of 15. He kicks her, knocks her to the floor and then hits her while she is immobilized face down. She was arrested on suspicion of car theft, before it was ascertained that the vehicle actually belonged to her parents... the deputy officer, who is now under investigation for use of excessive force, says the girl was being verbally abusive...

[The article goes on to talk about the article in the Observer (the Guardian piece), which mentions criticisms in America (Seattle) that the process is too slow in Italy, because the trial takes place just two days a week, and that it is inherently unfair because the jury is not sequestered. Then there is a repeat of Anne Bremner's efforts, the FOA, etc.]

Then back to Perugia, where:
The police have testified, firmly and under oath, that there was no violence and no pressure.... Indeed, even Knox's written statement, in which she reaffirms her accusation of Patrick, who was later released without being charged, was delivered spontaneously.

If I were the Italian judiciary, I would be thinking that Judge Heavey's apology was totally meaningless and insincere. After last week's ludicrous (more on that later) attempt to discredit the process and the press because of "willful mistranslations," it appears that FOA is back to implicitly demanding a change of venue. It seems that a speedy and fair trial in Italy is just impossible (too slow, jury not sequestered).

We heard it yet again yesterday.

The notion of a speedy trial (implied in the 6th Amendment of the US Constitution) is meant to ensure that defendents are not subjected to unreasonably long incarceration prior to trial. What is considered a reasonable length of time in the US is generally defined by statute. It is often six months for a serious crime, but murder is generally excluded from this limit. I am over-generalizing, of course.

The average time to trial for a case like this in the US is 14 months. So far, Italy is on track. Indeed, Knox and Sollecito could have opted for a fast-track trial. Had they done that, then we would be at the appeal phase.

The trial will take longer to complete because sessions are held only two days a week. Whether or not this is a good thing or a bad thing is a moot point. Food takes longer to prepare in Italy and France, and tourists pay tons of money each year to wait longer for a fine meal. If the tables were turned, and an Italian suspect were being tried in the US on similar charges, would anyone listen to his complaint that the process is moving too quickly, that he is not allowed to make spontaneous statements in court that cannot be challenged, that he may be sentenced to die, whereas in Italy he would not face the death penalty?

Then there is the insinuation that the presumption of innocence is somehow lacking outside the US. Every country in the European Union (i.e., including Italy) is a party to the Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms, which guarantees the presumption of innocence.

As others here have pointed out, this is a legal concept. It means that the burden of proof is on the prosecution and that the judge and jury weighing the evidence must begin with the assumption that the accuser (the state) is unable to support its allegations. It is obvious that the ordinary objective observer is not required to reason from this assumption.
In fact, to the extent that FOA is playing the role of accuser of the prosecutor and the Italian penal system, I would argue that the burden of proof is on it to prove the accusations made against the prosecutor, the investigation and the system.

In my opinion, it has failed to advance any compelling arguments. Calling the prosecutor mentally unstable (and speaking of willful mistranslations, that one takes the cake) based on Doug Preston's book just doesn't cut it. Meanwhile, inside the courtroom, the defense teams of Knox and Sollecito are challenging the prosecution's case. Knox and Sollecito are allowed to step in any time and their statements cannot be directly challenged. And neither risks the death penalty.

P.S. The article also mentions that when she spoke to counter the police witnesses, Amanda's Italian was uncertain ("halting"). I don't understand why she doesn't speak in her native language - English - and have her words translated into Italian for the judge and jurors. Her Italian is surely good enough by now for her to be able to ensure that the retranslation is faithful. I lived in France for 20 years and I am bilingual. But I think if I were in a similar situation, I would insist on speaking in my mother tongue. Just sayin'.

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Last edited by Skeptical Bystander on Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:51 pm   Post subject:    

Thank you, Skep, I corrected it to "smelled bleach".
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:01 pm   Post subject:    

"I don't understand why she doesn't speak in her native language - English - and have her words translated into Italian for the judge and jurors. "

I think it's part of the defense strategy.
When a foreigner speaks to the jurors (more precisely popular judges) in their own language it usually has a beneficial effect.

Spontaneous statements are ideal for this purpose as they can be prepared and practiced. Previous statements of Amanda were of this kind.
Now she had to match it to the testimonies and had to improvise.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:17 pm   Post subject:    

Earlier it was discussed where exactly the knife has been found, hidden or not, etc.

Andrea Vogt (Seattle PI):

Quote:
"Armando Finzi, an assistant in the Perugia police department's organized crimes unit, first discovered the knife in Sollecito's kitchen drawer.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:17 pm   Post subject: Timeline 5 - 6 Nov 2007   

Here is the Timeline for Monday 5 -Tuesday 6 Nov, 2007 for member comment and adjustment:


Monday 5th Nov, 2007

Morning/Afternoon Amanda and Raffaele in classes. Amanda writes her letter in class where she states she wants her mother to take her shopping

20:00 Meredith's vigil held in Perugia, sans Amanda and Raffaele

22:15 After having dinner, Amanda and Raffaele arrive at the police station

22:30 Raffaele, being questioned at this point, breaks and begins to change his story

22:39 Amanda is on the phone to Filomena, asking her if they are still going to live together

23:00 Amanda, still in the police waiting area is told off by a senior police officer for inappropriate behaviour - splits, cartwheels and back bends

24:00 Beginning of Amanda's questioning, which begins informaly as Amanda's official status is one of 'Witness', in the waiting area (later migrating at some point to an interview room?)


Tuesday 6th Nov, 2007

01:45 Whilst Raffaele is still being questioned in a room elsewhere, Amanda changes her story and accuses Patrick Lumumba. At this point, all questioning is halted and Amanda is informed of her new status as 'Suspect'. The statements from this session could not be used against Amanda, as she was a 'Witness', but could be used against others. This signed statement is one page long

03:30 At Amanda's request, questioning is resumed (the 'sponateous statement'), this time under the officiial status of 'Suspect' and in the presence of Prosecutor Mignini who has been called in, as there is no lawyer present for Amanda. Here, Amanda repeats her accusation of Patrick Lumumba, but this time with a full story and details. The High Court would later rule that this statement could be used neither against Amanda or others, as she was a 'suspect' and no lawyer was present. This statement is five pages long

05:45 Amanda's questioning is halted and her statement signed. She is formaly under arrest at this point. At some point shortly after this time, Amanda is taken for breakfast, after which she is retained in custody, as is Raffaele

Early Morning Patrick Lumumba is arrested and taken into custody as a 'Suspect' on the back of the testimonies provided by Raffaele and Amanda

Daytime Amanda requests a paper and pen, where she writes and signs a two page statement confirming her previous statements, although here she phrases it as a 'vision'. This is handed in to police officers as a "gift". This statement is legally defined as 'Spontaneous' (voluntary), reffered to as the 'Memoir', 'Memorial' or 'Two Page Note' and can be used against both Amanda and others. This document has been ruled admissible in the trial. Amanda and Raffaele are later transfered to Capanne prison to await their hearing to confirm their legal 'Suspect' status

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Last edited by Michael on Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:35 pm   Post subject: Cartwheels   

Brian wrote:
The exchange came as Inspector Ficarra, of the city’s Flying Squad, described 21-year-old Knox’s bizarre behaviour after her arrest following the killing in 2007.

“I was in the elevator and when I got to the floor where the Flying Squad department is the door opened and I saw Amanda doing floor exercises,” he{sic} said.

She was doing the splits, cartwheels and arching herself backwards, pressing her hands on the floor. I said to her, ‘What on earth are you doing? Is this the right way to behave?’



And on the Cook's Smog, they have been saying that Amanda's cartwheels were mistaken for 'back bends' (they seem to be of the idea that whilst gymnastics might not be an okay thing to do in a police station's public areas after the brutal murder of a 'friend', yoga is perfectly fine, in fact a 'right'), when here Ficarra clearly states that Amanda was indeed doing back bends, but was ALSO doing CARTWHEELS.

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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:41 pm   Post subject:    

MIchael,
the call to Filomena was at 22:39.

(22:29 is also interesting, the first bill of Lumumba :D)
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:54 pm   Post subject: Re: Timeline   

bolint wrote:
MIchael,
the call to Filomena was at 22:39.

(22:29 is also interesting, the first bill of Lumumba :D)



Thanks Bolint :) I've corrected that. Before I get totally confused (and I think I did get the 22:29 time from Patrick's last till receipt), you are referring to Patrick's last till receipt on the night of 1st right?

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:07 pm   Post subject: Earlier Statements   

Principessa Etrusca wrote:
bolint wrote:
Earlier I asked why neither Amanda nor Raffaele mentioned Jovana Popovic (at least in what has been published).

I still don't know. She would support their version and still they don't talk about her.

Might it have been that she had seen Amanda in the white skirt?


This witness's account does not support Knox's and Sollecito's version where it really matters to them, she only confirmed that they were at Sollecito's flat in the afternoon, before her lesson, and again at 8:40 in the evening. Meredith didn't get home till after 9 and I believe that it has been established that she was not attacked until after 9:30. It really doesn't matter where AK and RS were before that time.

However, she might be a character witness for Raffaele and confirm that he was kind and helpful to her.



Hi PE :) Well, it sort of does matter, because it actually also shows both of the suspects' earlier statements to be at best, incorrect and at worst lies. For example, both Amanda and Raffaele in their statements/diarys claimed that prior to 21:00 both of them were together, or at least, make no mention of their seperating at any time that afternoon. However, on Popovic's first visit to the apartment that afternoon she found Amanda who told her Raffaele wasn't there. Meanwhile, Raffaele claims that he and Amanda went shopping for groceries (although he couldn't remember 'what' ), after which, in his story change to police on the 5th, he stated Amanda left him to go to see Patick at Le Chic (contrary to Amanda's original statement, but in line with her false accusation made on the 6th). He claims to have then gone home at about 21:00 and eaten. Therefore, Popovic's testimony shows some portion of Raffaele's testimony to be innacurate.

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Offline mojo


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:08 pm   Post subject:    

Michael, are you also saying that Raffaelle implicated or accused Patrick? or was his testimony concerning Patrick just peripherally backing up what Amanda said?
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:25 pm   Post subject:    

Michael,
yes, of course Nov 1 (though I think on the 5th Lumumba was still billing late :D)
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:26 pm   Post subject: Bleach   

On the whole subject of Raffaele's apartment smelling of bleach, I do recall sometime last year, Raffaele's maid stating to police that she never used bleach in cleaning Raffaele's apartment. Therefore, it could only have been Raffaele and/or Amanda that used bleach in his apartment. This begs several questions:

1) Why is Amanda/Raffaele cleaning his apartment (and cleaning involving bleach is quite involved, not just a quick freshen-up here) when he has a paid for cleaner who comes in and cleans?

2) What was so serious that it required bleach and an amount in concentration that it stunk out the apartment days after the event?

3) Why are Amanda and Raffaele performing such a menial task as cleaning when time was of such a premium? The days after the murder saw them still having to go to college, as well as spending many hours speaking to police. So, the small amount of time they did have, they spent shopping for underwear and bleaching Raffaele's apartment, why? It also would seem that whilst they could be bothered to perform such unimportant tasks in the little time they had, such as bleach their apartment, yet couldn't be bothered to attend Meredith's vigil. It is inetereting to see where Meredith came in the list of priorities.

I'm also willing to bet that not only did the tell police that they were going to Meredith's vigil because they wanted to get out of/put off further questioning, but they probably also told Amanda's housemates and meredith's friends that they couldn't attend Meredith's vigil because they were at/would be at the police station.

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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:29 pm   Post subject:    

At the Cook's kitchen they still wondering what time the suspects went to the police station on the 5th despite their most trusted, infallible reporter in Perugia posting 3 days ago that Sollecito arrive at 22.15 together with Knox, who although was not required to be there, she nevertheless decided to go.

Oh dear, the food blogger seems is not communicating with Frank on the latest happenings in court and also Yummi, her legal expert is gone AWOL!

Most of the posters in her blog clearly go to Frank's blog skipped what he writes and go straight to the comments section just to post rude comments and totally ignored any information that Frank might provide. Weird lot
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:38 pm   Post subject: Raffaele's Testimony   

mojo wrote:
Michael, are you also saying that Raffaelle implicated or accused Patrick? or was his testimony concerning Patrick just peripherally backing up what Amanda said?



Hi Mojo :) Well, it was Raffaele's testimony that would have begun turning the attention to Patrick, when he told police that he'd told them a load of bullshit before and that Amanda didn't stay with him, but left him to go and see Patrick. However, that said, even at this point police probably didn't suspect him of being involved. It was the double whammy of Raffaele saying Amanda had gone to see Patrick and then Amanda showing them her phone with the last communication of that evening on it being to and from Patrick. But the one who really made Patrick a suspect was Amanda who, when shown and asked about the text to Patrick, blurted out that it was him who had killed her. On the text, it was not the police who took the text and decided it was incriminating, it was Amanda who made it so by her reaction to it when shown it. This then forced them to view that text's meaning in a new and sinister light, ie, that it was some sort of code for the two meeting up later. This would never have happened were it not for Amanda. The FOA and general Knox Camp have tried to spin it that it was this text and its misinterpretation by police that caused suspicion to fall on Patrick, when actually it was Amanda's reaction to the text message that caused the suspicion. Raffaele and his change of story in the other room merely set the ball rolling that set up these events.

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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:43 pm   Post subject:    

On the subject of Sollecito's apartment, I wonder if he didn't have a mop, how did him or his cleaner usually clean the floor?

I have been to Italy a few times and the floors of apartments, houses are very much like they are here in Spain, the are either, terracota, marble tiles or perhaps parquet flooring.

How is it possible not to have a mop for cleaning floor, was the cleaner going down on her knees and cleaning like they did before mops were invented or was Sollecito's floor never clean?


Last edited by Jools on Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:51 pm   Post subject:    

It's interesting that Raffaele mentioned Patrick in his interview (not sure if interrogation is the right word at that time?). For Knox to blurt out 'he did it' when seeing the text message to Patrick makes me think that they had a prior discussion about 'who to blame' if the worst came to the worst. Unfortunately it all fell apart as Raffaele didn't play ball - but at that time Knox probably wasn't fully aware of how much he had given away?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:54 pm   Post subject: Steve Shay   

Chris Mellas steps out of the cold. Steve Shay with a new article in which he interviews Chris Mellas in the WEST SEATTLE HERALD

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:02 pm   Post subject:    

So the 'tabloid press' changed splits to cartwheels? Seems like every news agency is the tabloid press according to Mellas.

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Offline Brian S.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:03 pm   Post subject:    

Chris Mellas due in Perugia this week:

... according to Chris Mellas, Amanda Knox’s stepfather, what began as an exaggeration from the prosecution quickly became a myth in the press.

“Amanda accompanied Raffaele to the station where he was then interrogated by Monica Napoleani, the Perugia chief of homicide. Amanda was there to support him, as he had supported her before, when she was interrogated,” said Chris Mellas..“She was actually sitting alone in a separate room waiting for her boyfriend, and Napoleani said in court Friday (Feb. 27) that when she went to get some water she walked by the room where Amanda was and saw Amanda ‘doing the splits.’ She said she thought this was ‘odd behavior,’ and that Amanda should have instead appeared to be mourning the loss of Meredith. The tabloid press further sensationalized her statement by changing ‘the splits’ to ‘cartwheels,’ and the mainstream press ran with that.”...

Mellas will fly to Italy this week to attend the trial and to support his stepdaughter. He will relieve her father, Curt...


West Seattle Herald
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:08 pm   Post subject:    

Justlooking wrote:

Quote:
So the 'tabloid press' changed splits to cartwheels? Seems like every news agency is the tabloid press according to Mellas.


Welcome, justlooking. Many of the reporters who filed were in the courtroom when testimony was given. Many are fluent in Italian. Andrea Vogt, fluent in Italian, reported cartwheels. That's good enough for me. As for the West Seattle Herald, I am beginning to wonder what's going on there.

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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:09 pm   Post subject:    

"The days after the murder saw them still having to go to college, as well as spending many hours speaking to police. So, the small amount of time they did have, they spent shopping for underwear and bleaching Raffaele's apartment, why? "

I think they really got frightened when Raffaele was called to the police in the evening.
Up to that point they may have thought that the police does routine checks.

But that call must have made them very nervous.
Why Raffaele? He had seemed to be out of this.
I think that's why they went in so late. They hoped that the questioning would thus be shorter.

Also, the call to Filomena from the police station...
While Raffaele in, Amanda may have been thinking on her situation. What if they arrest Raffaele? Where should she go? That's why she called Filomena, I think.

And then when she heard that Raffaele no longer offered alibi - I suppose that the policemen said this to each other so that she could hear it - she must have started to panick. All the things they had agreed suddenly seemed to fail and she had no B plan, especially not knowing what Raffaele told them. That's why she accused Lumumba, that seemed to be the only way out.


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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:11 pm   Post subject: Welcome & Patrick   

justlooking wrote:
It's interesting that Raffaele mentioned Patrick in his interview (not sure if interrogation is the right word at that time?). For Knox to blurt out 'he did it' when seeing the text message to Patrick makes me think that they had a prior discussion about 'who to blame' if the worst came to the worst. Unfortunately it all fell apart as Raffaele didn't play ball - but at that time Knox probably wasn't fully aware of how much he had given away?



Hi Justlooking and welcome to PMF!!! You are right, Raffaele would have been being questioned at that point, rather then interrogated. He was simply a 'Witness' at that stage, rather then a 'Suspect' (both actually being 'legal' titles in Italy). He'd simply been asked if he could come in at some point and clear up some inconstencies. He could well have walked out of the police station that night, still as a 'Witness', had he given the police non-incriminating and satisfactory answers. Of course, the story he actually gave, would later change his status and the tone of his questioning to one of interrogation. It's possible they may have had a plan before. However, it may also be just as likely that Amanda fingered Patrick because she felt backed into a corner and desperately needed to think of a way to take the heat off of herself. It should be noted, whilst Amanda was being questioned the police with her were being fed intel from the other room of what Raffaele had been saying. He'd effectively thrown Amanda to the dogs by denying her alibi.

My feeling is, it's unlikely they would have considered together beforehand blaming Patrick. It is rather a stupid move to blame an innocent person, for once they prove their innocence that puts you bang in serious trouble. As it happened, it took well over week before patrick was able to prove his alibi, but Amanda and Raffaele had no idea that would be the case. For all they knew, Patrick may have had 10 different people who could have given him an alibi for the night of the 1st Nov.

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Offline Fly by Night


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:16 pm   Post subject: Say What?   

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Here's a translation of the highlights of the article in La Nazione...
While Seattle is on the Amanda is innocent side, using the media to openly criticizing the way she was allegedly treated by Italian investigators, the world wide web quickly propagated a video in which we see a deputy officer from Seattle, Paul Schene 31 years old, strike a young girl of 15. He kicks her, knocks her to the floor and then hits her while she is immobilized face down. She was arrested on suspicion of car theft, before it was ascertained that the vehicle actually belonged to her parents... the deputy officer, who is now under investigation for use of excessive force, says the girl was being verbally abusive...


So why would Ms. Food & Whine blogger (aka Dempsey-at-the-table) be shocked to see Seattle residents going on record for news cameras at the highly publicized Friends of Amanda fundraising event to say, "hey, wait a minute - not everyone in Seattle is pro-Amanda!" I think most Seattle residents would be outraged to discover how poorly, due to the actions of a small self-interested few, they are characterized in the world press.

But, I find it extremely heartening to discover that there will, apparently, be a chapter in Dempsey's Cook Book devoted to yoga posture etiquette while visiting the police facilities and courtrooms of Italy. Important, because we now understand that there is a high probability Americans spending more than one week in Italy will likely be spending time in one or the other, or both. Therefore, knowing things like assuming the Salutation Posture is a no-no for police waiting rooms after 22:30 but a yes-yes before courtroom judge-and-jury each day as your trial begins is extremely valuable information, lest you wind up on the wrong side of the Italians due intricate cultural mores that Fodor’s and Lonely Planet simply do not cover in their travel guides.


Last edited by Fly by Night on Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:25 pm   Post subject: Tabloids   

justlooking wrote:
So the 'tabloid press' changed splits to cartwheels? Seems like every news agency is the tabloid press according to Mellas.



Indeed. It has been a constant tactic of the Knox Camp to refer to all the press as tabloids. This is their propaganda in an attempt to devalue the reporting on this case. The fact is, only one newspaper that can be termed as a 'tabloid' has followed this case closely and that The Daily Mail. But even that, has had most of its stories written by Nick Pisa, a freelance journo who has written articles on this case for some of the world's most respected press publications. Indeed, whilst I am rather scathing of the Daily Mail myself (it's political leanings, campaigning and infatuation with celebrities for example), it's coverage of this case has been no worse then any other publication and a good deal better then many. It's only foul (at least to the Knox Camp) is its penchant for using 'Foxy Knoxy' in its headlines on the case. But, there's nothing dishonest or incorrect in that either, since it 'is' her nickname. The rest of the main Anglo coverage on the case has been by the more respectable papers...The Telegraph, The Times etc, with the rest by regional and local papers (which aren't tabloids either). Of course, the FOA and Knox family have given many interviews and statements to various publications themselves...of course, the term 'tabloid' is never raised by them in reference to those :)

On the whole 'cartwheels' thing, see my post a few posts above, or here's the direct link: CARTWHEELS

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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:29 pm   Post subject: Patrick Lumumba   

justlooking wrote:
It's interesting that Raffaele mentioned Patrick in his interview (not sure if interrogation is the right word at that time?). For Knox to blurt out 'he did it' when seeing the text message to Patrick makes me think that they had a prior discussion about 'who to blame' if the worst came to the worst. Unfortunately it all fell apart as Raffaele didn't play ball - but at that time Knox probably wasn't fully aware of how much he had given away?


Hi justlooking, nice to see you :) -

You bring up an interesting observation. In this NEWSWEEK article by BARBIE NADEAU, Nov. 2007, written just shorly after the murder, she states that nobody disputes that Lumumba had some sort of interest in Kercher; police say their records show numerous calls to her cell phone in the days leading up to her murder.

If this is true, I wonder if Knox took a look at Meredith's phone(s) and saw this activity? I wonder if the activity was in the form of text messages discussing a possible job at Le Chic? Knox couldn't have been happy about that, and probably either discussed or even showed the messages to Sollecito.

The trial has a long way to go...

Michael,

Thanks for that timeline. :D
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:35 pm   Post subject:    

From the Chris Mellas interview:
“Also, in those four days she was in mourning over Meredith, which followed her outrage. Six hours after the discovery (of the body) she was like, ‘Let’s find the bastard who killed her.’”

Does anybody know of:

- Any intercepted conversation in which Amanda speaks of the murderer?
- Any outburst in which she condemns Rudy?
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Offline LucyJ


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:35 pm   Post subject:    

That "yoga" nonsense. Are we really supposed to believe AK's version of events in this regard, rather than that of half a dozen of Meredith's friends and a similar number of poliuce officers?

I feel sorry for AK's family in some ways, having to try to defend the indefensible, as far as AK's behaviour after Meredith's death was concerned. But I'd have a lt more respect for them if they would just admit it, admit to the absolute inappropriateness of it and offer some form of apology.

Let's face it, even my 8-year-old would know that cartwheels in a police station would not be appropriate.

And just why was AK so keen to be there, when she didn't actually have to be? My guess is that she would want to be the first to know what RS had been asked, and how he'd answered and if anything had "happened". Not out of concern for Meredith, but to see if their alibis had been cracked.
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:35 pm   Post subject: Re: Steve Shay   

Michael wrote:
Chris Mellas steps out of the cold. Steve Shay with a new article in which he interviews Chris Mellas in the WEST SEATTLE HERALD


Chris Mellas says:
“Amanda does yoga to calm herself down and relieve stress, and she told her father and me that’s why she was doing the splits. Also, in those four days she was in mourning over Meredith, which followed her outrage. Six hours after the discovery (of the body) she was like, ‘Let’s find the bastard who killed her.’”

Samantha Rodenhurst testified in court:
Amanda was always talking at the phone. She was very affectionate to Raffaele but she would keep complaining: 'I'm tired', 'I'm hungry', 'I'm thirsty'. 'I found her, she was in the wardrobe wrapped in a blanket' and with a foot hanging out. 'Those fucking bastards', she was yelling, but I don't know who she meant, I think the murderers. She said she took the shower, then she realized there was some blood.

Chris Mellas quoting AK "Let’s find the bastard who killed her". He was not present at the police station, therefore he is doing the usual FOA's spinning the single killer.
Samantha Rodenhurst testified under oath in court what she heard AK said 'Those fucking bastards'. Once again Chris Mellas is a bad liar!
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:36 pm   Post subject: Questioning   

bolint wrote:
"The days after the murder saw them still having to go to college, as well as spending many hours speaking to police. So, the small amount of time they did have, they spent shopping for underwear and bleaching Raffaele's apartment, why? "

I think they really got frightened when Raffaele was called to the police in the evening.
Up to that point they may have thought that the police does routine checks.

But that call must have made them very nervous.
Why Raffaele? He had seemed to be out of this.
I think that's why they went in so late. They hoped that the questioning would thus be shorter.

Also, the call to Filomena from the police station...
While Raffaele in, Amanda may have been thinking on her situation. What if they arrest Raffaele? Where should she go? That's why she called Filomena, I think.

And then when she heard that Raffaele no longer offered alibi - I suppose that the policemen said this to each other so that she could hear it - she must have started to panick. All the things they had agreed suddenly seemed to fail and she had no B plan, especially not knowing what Raffaele told them. That's why she accused Lumumba, that seemed to be the only way out.



Very astute. I agree on all three of your points. And after all...if Amanda was worried or confused about where she was going to live (and would have known she couldn't stay at the cottage since the 2nd), why did she wait until the night of the 5th to ask her flatmates about it? She could have phoned them any time before that night, yet only then did she feel the sudden need to ask?

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Offline FinnMacCool


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:38 pm   Post subject:    

Chris Mellas wrote:
Six hours after the discovery (of the body) she was like, ‘Let’s find the bastard who killed her.’


This is an interesting quote from that West Seattle Herald article.

Everything else we've heard from Amanda over those days has been the opposite - complaining about what a pain it is having to talk to the police so much.

Aside from that, I have to say I can't believe she was doing cartwheels. This case has stretched my credulity far enough already. Surely to God it was some kind of stretching exercise, not an actual cartwheel.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:40 pm   Post subject: Chris Mellas   

Jools Quoting Chris Mellas wrote:
“Amanda does yoga to calm herself down and relieve stress, and she told her father and me that’s why she was doing the splits. Also, in those four days she was in mourning over Meredith, which followed her outrage. Six hours after the discovery (of the body) she was like, ‘Let’s find the bastard who killed her.’”



Hi Jools :) Yeah, in mourning and so desperate to get the 'bastard who killed her', that's why she missed Meredith's vigil....she was out scouring the streets hunting down the real killer ;)

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Offline FinnMacCool


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:54 pm   Post subject:    

bolint wrote:
I think they really got frightened when Raffaele was called to the police in the evening.
Up to that point they may have thought that the police does routine checks.

But that call must have made them very nervous.
Why Raffaele? He had seemed to be out of this.
I think that's why they went in so late. They hoped that the questioning would thus be shorter.


I'm not so sure about this. Don't forget the intercepted phone call with his father on the Sunday - "Son, do me a favor, when you go to the Questura tomorrow, don't be bringing your knife,"; "Don't worry, dad, those gobshites don't know their arse from their elbow," or words to that effect. Raffaele seems cocky, rather than nervous.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:59 pm   Post subject: Re: Steve Shay   

Michael wrote:
Chris Mellas steps out of the cold. Steve Shay with a new article in which he interviews Chris Mellas in the WEST SEATTLE HERALD



So, a major change in the Knox Camp's PR strategy here. Chris Mellas is no longer the invisible man. I think I know the reason for this and it's not really by their own preferred choice. Up to now, Curt Knox has fulfilled the role of official Amanda Knox spokesperson to spin the days events outside the courtroom on trial days. Up to now, these dates (aside from the very first day, which was all technical formalities anyway) have all been ones he could attend. Curt is unable to go to the next dates, so it has to be Mellas, which also means he will have to take on the mantle of Knox spokesman outside the courtroom. Since he'll have to speak to the press then, the Knox Camp have to introduce him to the media now (as well as give him some practice). This therefore, is probably the first of several interviews we'll see involving Mellas in between now and the resumption of the trial.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:02 pm   Post subject: Re: Questioning   

FinnMacCool wrote:
bolint wrote:
I think they really got frightened when Raffaele was called to the police in the evening.
Up to that point they may have thought that the police does routine checks.

But that call must have made them very nervous.
Why Raffaele? He had seemed to be out of this.
I think that's why they went in so late. They hoped that the questioning would thus be shorter.


I'm not so sure about this. Don't forget the intercepted phone call with his father on the Sunday - "Son, do me a favor, when you go to the Questura tomorrow, don't be bringing your knife,"; "Don't worry, dad, those gobshites don't know their arse from their elbow," or words to that effect. Raffaele seems cocky, rather than nervous.



Hi Finn :) Hmm...but did Amanda share his confidence?

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Offline FinnMacCool


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:12 pm   Post subject: Re: Questioning   

Michael wrote:
Hi Finn :) Hmm...but did Amanda share his confidence?


I get it, Michael - you see them as the "nervous" sort of cartwheels rather than the "cocky" sort...

To be honest, neither of them seem very nervous to me. The intercepted calls, the emails, the reported conversations - none of it seems very nervous, to me. From Amanda, you get a strong sense of wanting to put it all behind her, turn a new leaf, and so on. From Raffaele, there's that arrogance, coupled with his continuing fascination with Amanda.

I think that, innocent or guilty, they got a bit of shock that night. Suddenly it wasn't a game any more, it wasn't just a chore having to talk to the police for hours on end.
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Offline Greggy


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:31 pm   Post subject:    

Help Needed on Understanding Police Questioning Laws in Italy

I am confused about what you can and can't do in Italy concerning questioning by the police. In America, you never have to talk with police beyond giving them your name (Hiibel vs. Nevada, 2006) and saying I have nothing to say. They can use their authoritarian tone, insult you and try to bully you to come down to the station or answer more questions but you don't have to. If they arrest you, you still don't have to say anything and if you request a lawyer the questioning ends, or anything you say after that can't be used in court (but the police have ways of getting around this by using what you tell them to get evidence that can be used in court). What are the laws and policies in Italy if the police want to question you?

What I am getting at is whether RS had to come down to the station and answer police questions that Monday night. Could he had just said: "I gave you a statement and I have nothing more to say". If there is no Italian legal requirement to submit to police questioning, I can't understand why he would go in for an interrogation? Was he an immature young man who didn't know he could refuse? The evidence is starting to indicate that he was, at least, involved in the cover-up. Was he living in a Nietzschean fantasy of being a superior being that could easily allay the police's questions? In my opinion, it seems clear that AK was usually her sexuality to control or stiffen RS...'s resolve so I can see why she tagged along. But I can't understand why RS would have gone in for this late night questioning, the equivalent of a trip to a dentist for a root canal drilling, if he didn't have to?

By the way, I think many of us American commentators felt an embarrassing sting when the MK trial lawyer recently pointed out that the police fairly questioned AK and that their approaches weren't like Guantanamo. Ouch! Whenever an uppity American starts criticizing another country's justice system, Guantanamo is the perfect one-word retort.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:38 pm   Post subject:    

Greggy, my view is that if RS didn't pop into the police station for a 'chat' then that would go against him. After all, if you're innocent then what should it matter? All you're doing is helping the police find out who did this horrible crime. By not going then you're basically saying 'you better check me out' to the authorities.

If you're truly innocent then there's nothing to fear, if you're not quite so innocent then you better go along anyway and hope you can bluff your way through the interview.

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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:41 pm   Post subject: Re: Steve Shay   

Michael wrote:
Michael wrote:
Chris Mellas steps out of the cold. Steve Shay with a new article in which he interviews Chris Mellas in the WEST SEATTLE HERALD



So, a major change in the Knox Camp's PR strategy here. Chris Mellas is no longer the invisible man. I think I know the reason for this and it's not really by their own preferred choice. Up to now, Curt Knox has fulfilled the role of official Amanda Knox spokesperson to spin the days events outside the courtroom on trial days. Up to now, these dates (aside from the very first day, which was all technical formalities anyway) have all been ones he could attend. Curt is unable to go to the next dates, so it has to be Mellas, which also means he will have to take on the mantle of Knox spokesman outside the courtroom. Since he'll have to speak to the press then, the Knox Camp have to introduce him to the media now (as well as give him some practice). This therefore, is probably the first of several interviews we'll see involving Mellas in between now and the resumption of the trial.


God help her if the stepfather is going to be the spokesperson.
Perhaps the family would consider him stopping at Switzerland and attend one of the finishing schools there, to sharpen his vulgar manners a bit.
Ofcourse while there, he could pop in to see Wilkens and telling him to shut it.

:lol:
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Offline FenceSitter


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:44 pm   Post subject:    

I was kind of surprised by AK and RS spontaneous statements on the weekend which indicated that the police speaking as witnesses were not telling the truth. Does anybody with more legal knowledge than me (all of you, probably!) know how risky this strategy is for the defence?
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:47 pm   Post subject:    

Here is a useful link to the USA Embassy in Italy (in English)

ARREST OF A U.S. CITIZEN IN ITALY

http://italy.usembassy.gov/acs/emergenc ... arrest.asp

And this one:

Prisoner's Guide
http://italy.usembassy.gov/acs/emergenc ... ct2007.pdf
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Offline anne


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:52 pm   Post subject:    

mojo wrote:
Greggy wrote:
Regarding RS's Japanese Manga Collection:

Just so my fellow commentators without teenagers are informed, extremely few Japanese Manga comics are of the sordid Hentai sort that RS is reported to have collected. His specialized manga variety had to be difficult to find and alludes to his strange interests. There is no correlation between reading manga and being violent. When I was last in Japan, it seemed like everyone was reading manga on the subways, with the ladies tending towards reading romantic interaction manga and the guys towards action heroes manga. There are small shops of manga being sold by street-side merchants everywhere and a huge 5-story department store of them in Akihabara, the electronic district of Tokyo. Only a very small section of the Akihabara department store sold hentai manga and they were completely isolated from young people in a restricted location and in clear wrappers. At Anime conventions in the USA, the same is true on the trade show floors where the majority of people visiting this section are bored, titillated Dads, who got roped into taking their anime costume-clad teenager to the convention. In the USA, most of the manga readers are excitedly looking forward to the release of The Watchmen animated movie later this week. If the MK trial concludes the way I think it might, RS will get his earliest chance to see The Watchmen in 2019.


i know little about this, but the chan subculture would make the acquisition of this stuff no more difficult than a few mouse clicks, i suspect.


When i first heard about hentai comics i didnt know what it is. Though there was sometimes pervert manga movie stuff on television late at night (sexual stuff) but i dont think that thats the same? I tried to find out over youtube but they block every hentai stuff. Its forbidden there. But then i really soon found out (over google) that there are loads of Internet sites providing all sorts of manga stuff. The harmless stuff is avaiable for free and the hentai stuff must be paid for. You need to have an acount and all that. So in the end its not that hard to get hold of it.
After that research i felt dirty :shock: though i didnt watch it.
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Offline Fly by Night


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:54 pm   Post subject: Re: Questioning   

FinnMacCool wrote:
Michael wrote:
Hi Finn :) Hmm...but did Amanda share his confidence?


I get it, Michael - you see them as the "nervous" sort of cartwheels rather than the "cocky" sort...

To be honest, neither of them seem very nervous to me. The intercepted calls, the emails, the reported conversations - none of it seems very nervous, to me. From Amanda, you get a strong sense of wanting to put it all behind her, turn a new leaf, and so on. From Raffaele, there's that arrogance, coupled with his continuing fascination with Amanda.

I think that, innocent or guilty, they got a bit of shock that night. Suddenly it wasn't a game any more, it wasn't just a chore having to talk to the police for hours on end.


Raffaele's sister is with the Carabinieri, which is the Italian National Guard police force. If familiarity breeds contempt and if there is competition or rivalry between police forces in Italy: Could a very naive Raffaele be seduced into completely disregarding the capabilities of the local Perugia police force?

If Amanda and Raffele played roles in the murder of Meredith Kercher: How important would it be for an eager-to-please Rafaele to reassure a nervous and disconnected Amanda that, with a little cleaning, there was nothing to worry about - would it be worth a treat of wild sex in the suggestive lingerie of Raffaele’s choice?

If Amanda murdered Meredith: How important would it be for her to remain as disconnected as possible, which at the police station might involve invoking familiar routines and activities that forced her to maintain her focus and composure - would cartwheels be out of the question?
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Offline justlooking


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:59 pm   Post subject:    

I know Dempsey's blog is not the first place you would go to for a factual analysis of this murder case, but I think her latest post is the most hilarious yet. If that's called journalism then I'm a Dutchman's uncle - and you can call me Laars...

http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/demp ... 163175.asp

I truly hope that at the end of this trial any future publishers drop this lady like a hot potato should she try and make money out of this tragedy. She is a disgrace to the journalist profession.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:01 pm   Post subject: Candace Dempsey   

From Candace Dempsey's new article:


Candace Dempsey wrote:
In Italian court this weekend, police asked us to believe Amanda, a 20-year-old honor student, was at the police station doing yoga stretches (hilariously described as cartwheels) one minute and the next minute sobbing as she fingered her former boss, Patrick Lumumba.



THE COOK'S SMOG


Well actually Candace, we don't have to just take the word of the police for it, we have it confirmed directly by Chris Mellas who got it straight from Amanda herself:


Chris Mellas wrote:
“Amanda accompanied Raffaele to the station where he was then interrogated by Monica Napoleani, the Perugia chief of homicide. Amanda was there to support him, as he had supported her before, when she was interrogated,” said Chris Mellas. Chris Mellas is the husband of Edda Mellas, Amanda’s mother. Both live in West Seattle.

“She was actually sitting alone in a separate room waiting for her boyfriend, and Napoleani said in court Friday (Feb. 27) that when she went to get some water she walked by the room where Amanda was and saw Amanda ‘doing the splits.’ She said she thought this was ‘odd behavior,’ and that Amanda should have instead appeared to be mourning the loss of Meredith. The tabloid press further sensationalized her statement by changing ‘the splits’ to ‘cartwheels,’ and the mainstream press ran with that. ”

“Amanda does yoga to calm herself down and relieve stress, and she told her father and me that’s why she was doing the splits.



THE WEST SEATTLE HERALD


I would imagine that this somewhat takes the edge off your indignant disbelieving tone of the police testimony in you shiny new article. It's a pity your 'colleague' Steve Shay didn't give you the heads up about Chris Mells' confirmation :) Of course, Mellas in his interview attempts to put as fine a spin on what Amanda was doing down whilst at the police station, as he would, but he does confirm she was at least doing posing excersises.


Candace Dempsey wrote:
Meanwhile gaping holes remain in the timeline. Most importantly: What exactly happened in the interrogation rooms between 11 p.m. and 1:45 to make Amanda start telling such a crazy story about Patrick Lumumba, saying she met him at the basketball court the night of the killing? To claim she went to the cottage where he may/may not have killed Meredith (even then she says she is confused about the statement and, worse, her memory was impaired by the marijuana she'd smoked that night).

Most crucially, how did a text message that Amanda sent to Patrick the night of the murder get paraphrased so it conveys the exact opposite meaning?

A piu tarde, buonanotte (see you later, good night), she said, when he texted her on the night of the murder to say she didn't have to come to work.



Read my Timeline posetd up above, that should clear your confusion, and my post a few posts later regarding Amanda and Raffaele's interrogation and text message :)

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Offline Fly by Night


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:06 pm   Post subject: Re: Steve Shay   

Jools wrote:
God help her if the stepfather is going to be the spokesperson. :lol:


Personally, I cannot wait for the impending train wreck of misstatements and untruths. Unless he is provided a pre-authorized script to read directly with no variations, the press is gonna have a field-day with this guy.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:11 pm   Post subject:    

Quote:
Finn wrote:
Don't forget the intercepted phone call with his father on the Sunday - "Son, do me a favor, when you go to the Questura tomorrow, don't be bringing your knife,"; "Don't worry, dad, those gobshites don't know their arse from their elbow," or words to that effect. Raffaele seems cocky, rather than nervous.



But all these were before the call. I think, Raffaele thought that he was basically through.


http://archiviostorico.corriere.it/2007 ... 1058.shtml


IL COLTELLO - Il padre di Sollecito, Francesco, urologo, deve conoscere bene suo figlio, perché al telefono, il cinque novembre, tre giorni dopo il ritrovamento del cadavere di Mez, si raccomanda: «Raffaele non girare col coltello, che se lo vedono i poliziotti chissà cosa succede...». La risposta del ragazzo è la seguente: «Figurati, mi hanno già sentito, ce l' avevo in tasca e quegli idioti non se ne sono neanche accorti». Può essere una cosa detta al telefono e niente più: solo che il giorno seguente Raffaele è di nuovo ascoltato dalla polizia, ancora in questura: e, lui, porta ancora con sé il coltello. «È la prova della sua innocenza», grida chi lo crede innocente. Si vedrà.


"THE KNIFE - Sollecito's father, Francesco, urologist, must know his son well, because on the phone, on 5th Nov, three days after the discovery of the body of Mez, he recommends: "Raffaele, don't go about with the knife, if the policemen see it who knows what happens". The response of the boy is the following: "Imagine, I have already been questioned, I had it in my pocket and those idiots are not so shrewd". It may have been a thing said on the phone and nothing else: but the next day Raffaele was interrogated again by the police, again in the Questura and he again takes the knife with him. "It is the proof of his innocence" - say those who think him innocent. We'll see."
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:13 pm   Post subject: Pizza   

Just a thought. The Knox Camp in the past used to make a huge amount of fuss with a claim that the police believed them guilty because a policeman had witnessed them together eating a pizza. I never took much notice of this. But, according to Candace's smog, the couple went out for dinner on the evening of the 5th, rather then eating in. They also appear to be implying this meal was a pizza. Could it be this pizza that an officer witnessed them eating? If so, it would be fully understandable if it had gotten his back up and rang alarm bells, if they were sitting there eating pizza and laughing it up together, whilst just a short distance away Meredith's vigil was in progress. A vigil that in my view they had earlier told police they had to go to as so couldn't go down the station for questioning, or was Raffaele's excuse for strolling in at 22:15. I can't imagine the police issuing such a late appointment unless Raffaele had given them some valid reason for not being able to attend earlier and the only valid reason I can think of, is that they intended to attend the vigil.

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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:19 pm   Post subject:    

Finn wrote:

"I have to say I can't believe she was doing cartwheels. This case has stretched my credulity far enough already. Surely to God it was some kind of stretching exercise, not an actual cartwheel."

Shall we call it a cartwheel-asana?


Selected asanas presented by blackbelt gurus: http://tinyurl.com/cv9exw
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Offline FinnMacCool


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:22 pm   Post subject:    

Hi, Bolint - I'm pretty sure that one of the subjects of the phone call was the fact that he'd been called into the Questura again. That's why papa was telling him not to go in with his knife again. After all, Amanda, Laura and Filomena had all been called back again to the Questura. I think they felt pretty confident. (God knows why, mind you.)

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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:25 pm   Post subject: Kitchen humor   

Hey Italian speakers,
Anybody knows what the food blogger is trying to say here. Is she implying that she knows Italian grammar?
:lol: :lol: :lol:

"So why did an officer write it down this way on her 1:45 a.m. statement, changing it to the future tense? Now it looks like she's going to meet him right away, just in time to kill Meredith.
Ho riposto al messaggio dicendogli che ci saremmo visti. (I replied with a message saying I will see you soon)."
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Offline FinnMacCool


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:26 pm   Post subject: Re: Questioning   

Fly by Night wrote:
Raffaele's sister is with the Carabinieri, which is the Italian National Guard police force. If familiarity breeds contempt and if there is competition or rivalry between police forces in Italy: Could a very naive Raffaele be seduced into completely disregarding the capabilities of the local Perugia police force?

If Amanda and Raffele played roles in the murder of Meredith Kercher: How important would it be for an eager-to-please Rafaele to reassure a nervous and disconnected Amanda that, with a little cleaning, there was nothing to worry about - would it be worth a treat of wild sex in the suggestive lingerie of Raffaele’s choice?

If Amanda murdered Meredith: How important would it be for her to remain as disconnected as possible, which at the police station might involve invoking familiar routines and activities that forced her to maintain her focus and composure - would cartwheels be out of the question?


I think these are very sharp questions, Flybynight. Probably the main reason for me thinking that cartwheels are out of the question (aside from my own sheer gobsmackedness) is that you would have to have very high ceilings, and quite big rooms, to achieve such a thing.

But these aren't very good reasons, I know... ;)
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Offline justlooking


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:41 pm   Post subject: Re: Kitchen humor   

Jools wrote:
Hey Italian speakers,
Anybody knows what the food blogger is trying to say here. Is she implying that she knows Italian grammar?
:lol: :lol: :lol:

"So why did an officer write it down this way on her 1:45 a.m. statement, changing it to the future tense? Now it looks like she's going to meet him right away, just in time to kill Meredith.
Ho riposto al messaggio dicendogli che ci saremmo visti. (I replied with a message saying I will see you soon)."


She is surely clutching at straws. I think she should take this up with Google Translation services. When the evidence starts blowing holes in your bow, you deflect them by homing in on the trivia - e.g. ambivalent text messages and 'cartwheels are really the splits'. It's a shame she doesn't address the other pieces of evidence that the defence are not challenging and which equally blow holes in the FOA version of 'the facts'.
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Offline FinnMacCool


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:41 pm   Post subject: Re: Kitchen humor   

Jools wrote:
Hey Italian speakers,
Anybody knows what the food blogger is trying to say here. Is she implying that she knows Italian grammar?
:lol: :lol: :lol:

"So why did an officer write it down this way on her 1:45 a.m. statement, changing it to the future tense? Now it looks like she's going to meet him right away, just in time to kill Meredith.
Ho riposto al messaggio dicendogli che ci saremmo visti. (I replied with a message saying I will see you soon)."


A piu tarde, buonanotte = see you later, good night.

There aren't any verbs at all in this.

Ho riposto al messaggio dicendogli che ci saremmo visti = I replied to the message telling him that we will see each other.

There are three verbs in this, one with a past sense (ho riposto), one with a gerund sense (dicendogli), and one with a future sense (saremmo visti). It reads like a straightforward report of the quoted message.

In short, I haven't got a clue what she's on about.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:44 pm   Post subject: Re: Questioning   

FinnMacCool wrote:
Fly by Night wrote:
Raffaele's sister is with the Carabinieri, which is the Italian National Guard police force. If familiarity breeds contempt and if there is competition or rivalry between police forces in Italy: Could a very naive Raffaele be seduced into completely disregarding the capabilities of the local Perugia police force?

If Amanda and Raffele played roles in the murder of Meredith Kercher: How important would it be for an eager-to-please Rafaele to reassure a nervous and disconnected Amanda that, with a little cleaning, there was nothing to worry about - would it be worth a treat of wild sex in the suggestive lingerie of Raffaele’s choice?

If Amanda murdered Meredith: How important would it be for her to remain as disconnected as possible, which at the police station might involve invoking familiar routines and activities that forced her to maintain her focus and composure - would cartwheels be out of the question?


I think these are very sharp questions, Flybynight. Probably the main reason for me thinking that cartwheels are out of the question (aside from my own sheer gobsmackedness) is that you would have to have very high ceilings, and quite big rooms, to achieve such a thing.

But these aren't very good reasons, I know... ;)



Why the need for 'very high ceilings'? When doing a cartwheel, a part of the body for almost every part of the move is in contact with the ground and the momentum is forwards, not upwards. Therefore, the ceilings only need to be higher then Amanda's height when standing, and the ceilings would have been considerably taller then Amanda (who isn't very tall) anyway.

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Last edited by Michael on Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Kermit


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:45 pm   Post subject: BONGIORNO'S FLYING CLASP   

Giulia Bongiorno and her traveling clasp:

During a break in the hearings Ms Bongiorno said: "I think you can see we are beginning to show that the scene of the crime was contaminated. For example, that bra clasp did a round of all the rooms ...."

I agree that it should have be collected in the first inspection. However, it wasn't and the only impact in the investigation maybe would be some lost time. I don't see the clasp being picked up 1 metre (39") away as being equivalent to doing a round of all the rooms in the cottage.

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Offline FinnMacCool


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:47 pm   Post subject:    

I said they weren't very good reasons, Michael.

I'm just looking at the room I'm in now, and thinking - of course, I'd be the same height, except upside down, but I'd be afraid for the light fittings...

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:56 pm   Post subject: Re: Kitchen humor   

justlooking wrote:
Jools wrote:
Hey Italian speakers,
Anybody knows what the food blogger is trying to say here. Is she implying that she knows Italian grammar?
:lol: :lol: :lol:

"So why did an officer write it down this way on her 1:45 a.m. statement, changing it to the future tense? Now it looks like she's going to meet him right away, just in time to kill Meredith.
Ho riposto al messaggio dicendogli che ci saremmo visti. (I replied with a message saying I will see you soon)."


She is surely clutching at straws. I think she should take this up with Google Translation services. When the evidence starts blowing holes in your bow, you deflect them by homing in on the trivia - e.g. ambivalent text messages and 'cartwheels are really the splits'. It's a shame she doesn't address the other pieces of evidence that the defence are not challenging and which equally blow holes in the FOA version of 'the facts'.



A good observation and basically sums up the Knox Camp's approach to supporting Amanda on the Web so far. Focus on and deflect the discussion towards the trivia (Amanda and Raffaele kissing, the tabloids, the Monster of Florence case as further examples of the good ones you've already given). Whilst character is important and Amanda's strange behaviours are certainly a reflection of that, it is also important to allow those matters that are of secondary importance or irrelevant, not to be allowed to hijack the debate over that which is of primary importance...the evidence. For example. the bloody footprint on the pillow that corresponds to that of a female with the same size shoe as Amanda. On that, the silence is deafening on the Amanda Knox support sites.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:00 pm   Post subject: Cartwheels   

FinnMacCool wrote:
I said they weren't very good reasons, Michael.

I'm just looking at the room I'm in now, and thinking - of course, I'd be the same height, except upside down, but I'd be afraid for the light fittings...



I'm smiling actually, imagining members experimenting and trying to perform cartwheels in their living rooms and hallways :)

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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:01 pm   Post subject:    

FinnMacCool wrote:
I said they weren't very good reasons, Michael.

I'm just looking at the room I'm in now, and thinking - of course, I'd be the same height, except upside down, but I'd be afraid for the light fittings...


Hi Finn,
Italian ceilings are pretty high. In older buildings-let'say up to the 60-70's, the standard measure is around 3.30 -3.40 meters. In more modern buildings it goes from 2.80 to 3.0 meters, approximately. I think there's plenty of room...
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Offline FinnMacCool


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:05 pm   Post subject:    

nicki wrote:
FinnMacCool wrote:
I said they weren't very good reasons, Michael.

I'm just looking at the room I'm in now, and thinking - of course, I'd be the same height, except upside down, but I'd be afraid for the light fittings...


Hi Finn,
Italian ceilings are pretty high. In older buildings-let'say up to the 60-70's, the standard measure is around 3.30 -3.40 meters. In more modern buildings it goes from 2.80 to 3.0 meters, approximately. I think there's plenty of room...


You're just saying that to blacken the poor girl's name. :cry: :cry: :cry:
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:09 pm   Post subject: Re: Kitchen humor   

justlooking wrote:
Jools wrote:
Hey Italian speakers,
Anybody knows what the food blogger is trying to say here. Is she implying that she knows Italian grammar?
:lol: :lol: :lol:

"So why did an officer write it down this way on her 1:45 a.m. statement, changing it to the future tense? Now it looks like she's going to meet him right away, just in time to kill Meredith.
Ho riposto al messaggio dicendogli che ci saremmo visti. (I replied with a message saying I will see you soon)."


She is surely clutching at straws. I think she should take this up with Google Translation services. When the evidence starts blowing holes in your bow, you deflect them by homing in on the trivia - e.g. ambivalent text messages and 'cartwheels are really the splits'. It's a shame she doesn't address the other pieces of evidence that the defence are not challenging and which equally blow holes in the FOA version of 'the facts'.


Hi Justlooking,

I know, she will never concentrate on any evidence, from all the information that came out this week end, she is still stuck on the yoga, chamomile, croissants and best of all she is even ignoring what her trusted reporter in Perugia has posted on this week trial session.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:09 pm   Post subject:    

Michael wrote:

Quote:
So, a major change in the Knox Camp's PR strategy here. Chris Mellas is no longer the invisible man. I think I know the reason for this and it's not really by their own preferred choice. Up to now, Curt Knox has fulfilled the role of official Amanda Knox spokesperson to spin the days events outside the courtroom on trial days. Up to now, these dates (aside from the very first day, which was all technical formalities anyway) have all been ones he could attend. Curt is unable to go to the next dates, so it has to be Mellas, which also means he will have to take on the mantle of Knox spokesman outside the courtroom. Since he'll have to speak to the press then, the Knox Camp have to introduce him to the media now (as well as give him some practice). This therefore, is probably the first of several interviews we'll see involving Mellas in between now and the resumption of the trial.


Do you really think that an interview with Stefano Shay of the WS Herald qualifies as an introduction to the media?! :lol:

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Offline justlooking


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:20 pm   Post subject:    

The West Seattle Herald says of the trial:

"The prosecution claims the three converged in a deadly sex ritual and killed Kercher."

http://www.westseattleherald.com/2009/0 ... -yoga-move


Does anyone really claim that this was a 'deadly sex ritual' - apart from FOA and their ilk? This is another obvious spin on the court case. Please show me the prosecution evidence that this was the mens rea of the defendents. Much more likely is that this was a sexual assault on Meredith and for one reason or another it escalated to her violent death. I find it very hard to believe the tabloid spin of this being a 'sex ritual' or 'satanic'. As far as I'm aware the prosecution are not pursuing this angle.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:27 pm   Post subject: Maybe Harry Wilkens can do some intensive coaching   

FBN wrote:

Quote:
Jools wrote:
God help her if the stepfather is going to be the spokesperson.


Personally, I cannot wait for the impending train wreck of misstatements and untruths. Unless he is provided a pre-authorized script to read directly with no variations, the press is gonna have a field-day with this guy.


I was thinking more along the lines of his first major outburst, wherein he calls some journalist an "obtuse retard" and threatens to rub his face in sh*t. It is possible that his in-person persona is much less aggressive than the online one, however.

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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2308

PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:30 pm   Post subject: Re: Kitchen humor   

justlooking wrote:
She is surely clutching at straws. I think she should take this up with Google Translation services.


:D :D :D

justlooking wrote:
When the evidence starts blowing holes in your bow, you deflect them by homing in on the trivia - e.g. ambivalent text messages and 'cartwheels are really the splits'. It's a shame she doesn't address the other pieces of evidence that the defence are not challenging and which equally blow holes in the FOA version of 'the facts'.


Candace Dempsey has hardly written about the woman's bloody shoe print which was found on a pillow under Meredith's body. A footprint that this is compatible with Knox's foot size. This is crucial evidence. Dempsey and the other FOA can no longer claim that Meredith's murder was committed by a lone wolf. She hasn't offered an alternative scenario that takes into account the woman's bloody shoe print. It's like she's pretending it doesn't exist.

Chris Mellas admitted on the TC board that some of Amanda Knox's footprints were set in Meredith's blood. It only stands to reason that the woman (Amanda Knox) who stepped in Meredith's blood in the corridor also did the same in Meredith's room. I don't believe for a second that there was another unknown mysterious woman in the cottage that night who also stepped in Meredith's blood.

Candace Dempsey doesn't have any proof to support the implication she made in her latest piece that the numerous police officers are lying. How many people will it take to convince Dempsey that Knox is lying? The postal police, officers from the Perugia Flying Squad, the Murder Squad, the Narcotics Squad, Meredith's friends and her Italian housemates have all contradicted what Knox has said.

Dempsey has already dismissed the sworn testimonies of other prosecution witnesses: the shopkeeper, Toto, and the lecturer who claimed he saw Knox, Sollecito, Guede and Meredith together. She poured scorn on Toto because she claimed that Knox and Sollecito couldn't see the gates of the cottage from the basketball court.

Does Dempsey believe that ALL these witnesses are part of some huge, sinister conspiracy to frame Knox and Sollecito?


Last edited by The Machine on Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Jools


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Posts: 2241

Location: Spain

PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:47 pm   Post subject:    

TM wrote:
"Does Dempsey believe that ALL these witnesses are part of some huge, sinister conspiracy to frame Knox and Sollecito?"

No, she couldn't care less. This is what the food bloger believes:

Money, Money
For money makes the world go around, the world go around,
the world go around.
Money makes the world go around,
the clinking, clanking sound
of Money, money, money, money,
Money, money, money, money,
Get a little, get a little,
Money, money, money, money,
Mark, a yen, a buck or a pound,
That clinking, clanking clunking sound
is all that makes the world go round,
It makes the world go round.

m-))
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:51 pm   Post subject:    

Justlooking wrote:

Quote:
The West Seattle Herald says of the trial:

"The prosecution claims the three converged in a deadly sex ritual and killed Kercher."

http://www.westseattleherald.com/2009/0 ... -yoga-move


Does anyone really claim that this was a 'deadly sex ritual' - apart from FOA and their ilk? This is another obvious spin on the court case. Please show me the prosecution evidence that this was the mens rea of the defendents. Much more likely is that this was a sexual assault on Meredith and for one reason or another it escalated to her violent death. I find it very hard to believe the tabloid spin of this being a 'sex ritual' or 'satanic'. As far as I'm aware the prosecution are not pursuing this angle.


The idea that the prosecutor, due to his state of "delirium," believes in the satanic ritual (not sex ritual as Stefano writes) motive is the backbone of the case. The case I'm referring to, of course, is the FOA/Marriott case against the Prosecutor. Although it has been discredited, they just can't seem to let go.

On a related topic, I think the raging debate over whether Knox was doing cartwheels or yoga moves at the police station is one big red herring. And it is beginning to smell bad.

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Offline justlooking


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:52 pm   Post subject: Re: Kitchen humor   

The Machine wrote:
Does Dempsey believe that ALL these witnesses are part of some huge, sinister conspiracy to frame Knox and Sollecito?


If it helps in any way towards future book sales then maybe the answer is yes. It's all very sad...
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Offline stewarthome2000


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Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:47 am

Posts: 152

Location: Perugia, Italy

PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:57 pm   Post subject:    

justlooking wrote:
I know Dempsey's blog is not the first place you would go to for a factual analysis of this murder case, but I think her latest post is the most hilarious yet. If that's called journalism then I'm a Dutchman's uncle - and you can call me Laars...

http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/demp ... 163175.asp

I truly hope that at the end of this trial any future publishers drop this lady like a hot potato should she try and make money out of this tragedy. She is a disgrace to the journalist profession.


HEAR HEAR!
The woman is a nut - plain and simple. She uses quotes when they are convenient and dismisses quotes when they are not, comes up with convoluted and yes HILARIOUS explanations to dismiss any possible evidence against AK, and now the POLICE are liars. Let’s face it. NOTHING!, even a video of AK killing MK supported by 100 eye witnesses would not be enough for Candace Dempsey, whom I call Cantadice la Verita Dempsey, to finally admit AK was guilty. I can see he PI headline now “AK lookalike makes video – 100 witnesses in pact to frame Seattle Native”. This woman is a disgrace ….you narrow-minded, tactless SOB. Truth is I expected nothing less from this lunatic.
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Offline FinnMacCool


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:00 pm   Post subject: Solving one of the knottiest problems of the case   

Harry Wilkens wrote:
Posted by Harry R. Wilkens at 3/2/09 2:45 p.m.

According to Gabriella Carlizzi, Amanda & Raffaele would know the real murderers, but they would be too afraid to name them. However, then both would already have been "suicided", and therefore this explanation doesn't have many amateurs. I just want to mention this because DEBLU and the others always are wondering "what happened to them" and "what exactly they meant"...


See, we lack this clarity of argument on this board.
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Offline justlooking


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Location: England

PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:11 pm   Post subject: Re: Solving one of the knottiest problems of the case   

FinnMacCool wrote:
Harry Wilkens wrote:
Posted by Harry R. Wilkens at 3/2/09 2:45 p.m.

According to Gabriella Carlizzi, Amanda & Raffaele would know the real murderers, but they would be too afraid to name them. However, then both would already have been "suicided", and therefore this explanation doesn't have many amateurs. I just want to mention this because DEBLU and the others always are wondering "what happened to them" and "what exactly they meant"...


See, we lack this clarity of argument on this board.



It's all suddenly starting to make sense....
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Offline Jools


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Location: Spain

PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:12 pm   Post subject: Re: Solving one of the knottiest problems of the case   

FinnMacCool wrote:
Harry Wilkens wrote:
Posted by Harry R. Wilkens at 3/2/09 2:45 p.m.

According to Gabriella Carlizzi, Amanda & Raffaele would know the real murderers, but they would be too afraid to name them. However, then both would already have been "suicided", and therefore this explanation doesn't have many amateurs. I just want to mention this because DEBLU and the others always are wondering "what happened to them" and "what exactly they meant"...


See, we lack this clarity of argument on this board.


Ah, gone are the days when the cook was deleting other comments for a lot less than this :lol: :lol:

Finn whatever happened to Yummi, he apart from yourself was the only other poster in there worth reading. Did the family or the spotty ex b/f demanded he be removed?
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:35 pm   Post subject: This is Spinal Tap   

Jools, your money song reminded me of Gimme Some Money by Spinal Tap:

Quote:
Quote:
Stop wasting my time
You know what I want
You know what I need
Or maybe you don't

Do I have to come right flat out and tell you everything?
Gimme some money, gimme some money

I'm nobody's fool
I'm nobody's clown
I'm treating you cool
I'm putting you down

But baby I don't intend to leave empty handed
Gimme some money, gimme some money
Oh yeah! Go Nigel, Go!

Gimme some money, gimme some money
Gimme some money, gimme some money

Don't get me wrong (Gimme some money, gimme some money)
Try getting me right (Gimme some money, gimme some money)
Your face is OK
But your purse is too tight (Gimme some money, gimme some money)
I'm looking for pound notes, loose change, bad checks, anything
Gimme some money, gimme some money

Gimme some money, gimme some money
Gimme some money, gimme some money
Gimme some money, gimme some money
Gimme some money, gimme some money
Gimme some money, gimme some money

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Offline stewarthome2000


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Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:47 am

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Location: Perugia, Italy

PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:38 pm   Post subject: ..premeditation   

justlooking wrote:
The West Seattle Herald says of the trial:

"The prosecution claims the three converged in a deadly sex ritual and killed Kercher."

http://www.westseattleherald.com/2009/0 ... -yoga-move


Does anyone really claim that this was a 'deadly sex ritual' - apart from FOA and their ilk? This is another obvious spin on the court case. Please show me the prosecution evidence that this was the mens rea of the defendents. Much more likely is that this was a sexual assault on Meredith and for one reason or another it escalated to her violent death. I find it very hard to believe the tabloid spin of this being a 'sex ritual' or 'satanic'. As far as I'm aware the prosecution are not pursuing this angle.



I personally believe it’s a stretch to conclude that all three killed Kercher in a deadly satanic sex ritual. But I do believe that it was a rape that had gotten out of control. AK's newly found sexual explorations lead to a curiosity of new level of orgasmic high by being violated at knife point (the wound on her neck as a result). AK, RG and possibly RS decided under the influence of smoking, and wih confident arrogance, to get the “prude” involved beyond her will…maybe she will like it. I think AK resented Kercher for being proper, which was exemplified by the kin words people said about MK and her own statement that she was "not interested in boys, she came to PG to study". They tried to get MK in the role playing game (as Knox had probably played before as the victim) and it got out of hand.

MK would have remained still and quiet with a knife at her throat, but when it perhaps accidently penetrated somewhat she screamed got up and the killer may have stabbed more violently to shut her up. Everyone runs away… AK and RS come back to do the cleaning and eventually get caught unexpectedly by the postal police….now you know the rest of the story. For what it’s worth, and that's not much, it’s just my opinion.


Last edited by stewarthome2000 on Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:40 pm   Post subject:    

Just looking wrote:

Quote:
FinnMacCool wrote:
Harry Wilkens wrote:
Posted by Harry R. Wilkens at 3/2/09 2:45 p.m.

According to Gabriella Carlizzi, Amanda & Raffaele would know the real murderers, but they would be too afraid to name them. However, then both would already have been "suicided", and therefore this explanation doesn't have many amateurs. I just want to mention this because DEBLU and the others always are wondering "what happened to them" and "what exactly they meant"...

See, we lack this clarity of argument on this board.

It's all suddenly starting to make sense....


Naturally, he's referring to the real killers of John F. Kennedy.

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Offline Tara


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Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

Posts: 1010

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:43 pm   Post subject: Words of Wisdom   

I'm delighted the caustic "Female Lawyer" from Miss Represented's blog comments has finally found a home over at the scratched table. She's got is goin' on, and has some really good suggestions for the Knox team, a couple of them here in this post:

Deblu wrote:
Quote:
Posted by deblu at 3/2/09 3:00 p.m.

Hi Finn,

I thought Raffaele was talking about the interrogation process. I don't know what "Scientific" means. Do you?

I thought Amanda wrote that she had been hit in the back of the head whenever she got a question wrong.

I'm wondering if the defense team understands "false confessions?" I personally think they should hire Charlie to help them out. : )

I look forward to the defense. Yet, it seems like Sollecito's lawyer has already raised evidence that causes him to appear innocent. I wonder why Amanda's defense didn't object to the hearsay testimony that a knife was found with both Amanda and Meredith's DNA on it?


Honestly, you can't make this stuff up... :roll:
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Offline FinnMacCool


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Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:42 am

Posts: 299

Location: Cionn tSáile, Poblacht na hÉireann

PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:44 pm   Post subject: Re: Solving one of the knottiest problems of the case   

Jools wrote:
FinnMacCool wrote:
Harry Wilkens wrote:
Posted by Harry R. Wilkens at 3/2/09 2:45 p.m.

According to Gabriella Carlizzi, Amanda & Raffaele would know the real murderers, but they would be too afraid to name them. However, then both would already have been "suicided", and therefore this explanation doesn't have many amateurs. I just want to mention this because DEBLU and the others always are wondering "what happened to them" and "what exactly they meant"...


See, we lack this clarity of argument on this board.


Ah, gone are the days when the cook was deleting other comments for a lot less than this :lol: :lol:

Finn whatever happened to Yummi, he apart from yourself was the only other poster in there worth reading. Did the family or the spotty ex b/f demanded he be removed?


Yummi's probably seen sense and found something better to do, Jools. They're all very polite to him, and to me too, surprisingly enough, although Candace has been quite frosty lately.

But Just Looking's a very fine poster on there too, now. It's nice to have a bit of company.
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Offline Jumpy


User avatar


Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:27 pm

Posts: 231

Location: US

PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:55 pm   Post subject: Re: Steve Shay   

Michael wrote:
Michael wrote:
Chris Mellas steps out of the cold. Steve Shay with a new article in which he interviews Chris Mellas in the WEST SEATTLE HERALD



Curt is unable to go to the next dates, so it has to be Mellas, which also means he will have to take on the mantle of Knox spokesman outside the courtroom. Since he'll have to speak to the press then, the Knox Camp have to introduce him to the media now (as well as give him some practice). This therefore, is probably the first of several interviews we'll see involving Mellas in between now and the resumption of the trial.


Oh My God! Chris must be soooooo excited to be let out of his cage. What do you think he is gonna wear? Is he gonna try and match those little shitsretardsloserbuttholes, Mandy and Rafe? Will someone let him in on the big wardrobe secret? Finally! His BIG chance and oh try oh try oh try not to blow it Chris. Maybe a new boat is in the horizon! Oh but darn that Italian food. No chicken wings to be found.

OMGOMGOMGOMG!!!!!
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:01 am   Post subject:    

Finn wrote:

Quote:
Jools wrote:
FinnMacCool wrote:
Harry Wilkens wrote:
Posted by Harry R. Wilkens at 3/2/09 2:45 p.m.

According to Gabriella Carlizzi, Amanda & Raffaele would know the real murderers, but they would be too afraid to name them. However, then both would already have been "suicided", and therefore this explanation doesn't have many amateurs. I just want to mention this because DEBLU and the others always are wondering "what happened to them" and "what exactly they meant"...


See, we lack this clarity of argument on this board.


Ah, gone are the days when the cook was deleting other comments for a lot less than this

Finn whatever happened to Yummi, he apart from yourself was the only other poster in there worth reading. Did the family or the spotty ex b/f demanded he be removed?


Yummi's probably seen sense and found something better to do, Jools. They're all very polite to him, and to me too, surprisingly enough, although Candace has been quite frosty lately.
But Just Looking's a very fine poster on there too, now. It's nice to have a bit of company.


You don't think it has anything to do with your improvisational satires of last week, do you? :)

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:07 am   Post subject: In the meantime, let's dish about travel - er - true crime.   

Justlooking wrote:

Quote:
The Machine wrote:

Does Dempsey believe that ALL these witnesses are part of some huge, sinister conspiracy to frame Knox and Sollecito?


If it helps in any way towards future book sales then maybe the answer is yes. It's all very sad...


Actually, on good days Candace believes that this is all just one big silly misunderstanding and that the Italians will eventually sort it all out.

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Offline FinnMacCool


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:07 am   Post subject:    

Well, they were a bit crazy-making, Heloise.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:13 am   Post subject:    

Finn wrote:

Quote:
Well, they were a bit crazy-making, Heloise.


You couldn't make these things up. :)

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Offline FinnMacCool


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:26 am   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Finn wrote:

Quote:
Well, they were a bit crazy-making, Heloise.


You couldn't make these things up. :)


Oh, I could try...
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Offline Giustizia


Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:13 pm

Posts: 113

Location: New York City

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:59 am   Post subject: OJ Simpson/Amanda Knox similarities   

Why am I having flashbacks to the OJ Simpson trial now?

1) AK's stepfather Chris Mellas says: "Six hours after the discovery [of the body] she (AK) was like, "Let’s find the bastard who killed her.'"

Remember when, after being acquitted in the criminal trial, Simpson said that he would look for the real murderer, who he believed was a hitman? There's little evidence to suggest that Simpson ever actively searched for the "real killer."

2) Every time I hear reference to Knox's "covered my ears” dream, or her ludicrous statement that maybe she (Knox) fell asleep at Raffaele's apartment while he went over to the victim's apartment and committed the crimes, or any other hypotheis, I think of Simpson's "If I Killed Her" book.

3) Over-the-top PR firm and lawyers for the defense use every form of spin, leak, and media manipulation in the court of public opinion.

4) A suspect that couldn't possibly have done the crime. OJ Simpson?! NFL star and actor? NO! There's no way he would have killed the mother of his children! Not OJ!

Well guess what? He was found guilty in the civil case.
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Offline Giustizia


Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:13 pm

Posts: 113

Location: New York City

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:19 am   Post subject: AK and RS Alibi v3.4   

There are so many instances, whether it's an AK diary entry or e-mail, a statement or comment from RS, in which I cannot imagine an innocent person EVER using the turn of phrase they have in discussing the horrific crimes perpetuated against the victim.

Here's just one instance of many, this time from RS, which I believe is a statement made to the police sometime in early November: "In my earlier statement, I told you a whole lot of rubbish because Amanda convinced me about her version and I didn’t think about the contradictions."

That's amazing, really. Admitting, first off, that you lied to the police ("I told you a whole lot of rubbish") and secondly, admitting that you didn't have your story (alibi) straight and had to get the VERSION right ("Amanda convinced me about her version and I didn’t think about the contradictions").

If I were innocent, I would never lay on the bullsh*t to the police, and I would have no need to get my story straight - or have someone else CONVINCE me what the "true" story was. If I were innocent, the first time, and every time thereafter when making a statement, it wouldn't be difficult at all to tell the unvarnished truth and account for my whereabouts and activity, and I'd have no need, like AK, to imagine, or dream, about the events of a particular evening.
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Offline Giustizia


Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:13 pm

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Location: New York City

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:21 am   Post subject:    

Why does Candace Dempsey, in her latest blog entry: Amanda Knox: Yoga made her do it, refer to the transcript of Amanda Knox's handwritten statement to police on the evening of November 6, the day she was arrested, as a "false confession" (Those are the words Dempsey uses to link to a Transcript of Amanda Knox's note in The Telegraph)? What's false about it?
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Offline Michael

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Location: England

Highscores: 113

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:21 am   Post subject: Re: BONGIORNO'S FLYING CLASP   

Kermit wrote:
Giulia Bongiorno and her traveling clasp:

During a break in the hearings Ms Bongiorno said: "I think you can see we are beginning to show that the scene of the crime was contaminated. For example, that bra clasp did a round of all the rooms ...."

I agree that it should have be collected in the first inspection. However, it wasn't and the only impact in the investigation maybe would be some lost time. I don't see the clasp being picked up 1 metre (39") away as being equivalent to doing a round of all the rooms in the cottage.



Kermit, yet another excellent mini-presentation from you!! And one sorely needed. It is most important that the original location and its subsequent migration is put into its proper context, and your presentation does exactly that in a very precise and concise way :)

I have added this mini-presentation to Kermit's Powerpoint thread in the Media forum so that members can find it easily, whenever required in the future: BONGIORNO'S FLYING CLASP

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:30 am   Post subject: False Confession   

Giustizia wrote:
Why does Candace Dempsey, in her latest blog entry: Amanda Knox: Yoga made her do it, refer to the transcript of Amanda Knox's handwritten statement to police on the evening of November 6, the day she was arrested, as a "false confession" (Those are the words Dempsey uses to link to a Transcript of Amanda Knox's note in The Telegraph)? What's false about it?



Candace has referred to it as that almost from the very beginning, which actually reflects her own bias and 'opinion', rather then any sort of fact. It has never been established as a 'false confession' in the true meaning of the term, neither is there any proof or evidence to show that is the case. In fact, even the term 'confession' is not correct. The true term for it is 'false accusation'. If one wishes to use a completely neutral term, then 'inadmissable statements/s' would also be valid terms, but the term 'false confession' is false and agenda laden.

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THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Giustizia


Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:13 pm

Posts: 113

Location: New York City

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:52 am   Post subject: Name-calling and threats   

Sorry for the cross-post from the Dempsey "Amanda Knox: Yoga made her do it" blog entry today, but the vitriol and gratuitous name-calling is tedious.

"Harry R. Wilkens" wrote:
Posted by Harry R. Wilkens at 3/2/09 12:17 p.m.

I think it's not a good idea to let today's article in the WEST SEATTLE HERALD to be commented only by the usual Anti-Amanda gang. As soon as something is published about her, they come out of their hole^s like cockroaches... I know, we can't be everywhere and we are tired of that crap, but at least something should be done against that gang.


I have thick(ish) skin, but I don't think anyone on the PMF or TJMK sites ever refers to the FOA or the pro-Amanda crowd as cockroaches. This is just one of many slanders on various blogs - Perugia Shock also has similar boorish behavior. I understand this is a contentious trial, but the personal attacks come from the innocentisti, not from the colpevolisti.

I wonder, also, what "Harry R. Wilkens" has in mind when he/she says: "...at least something should be done against that gang." Again, I don't ever recall anyone, on the PMF or TJMK sites, making veiled threats against those who believe Knox is innocent of the murder of her roommate, Meredith Kercher.
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Offline Giustizia


Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:13 pm

Posts: 113

Location: New York City

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:12 am   Post subject: Re: False Confession   

Michael wrote:
Candace has referred to it as that almost from the very beginning, which actually reflects her own bias and 'opinion', rather then any sort of fact. It has never been established as a 'false confession' in the true meaning of the term, neither is there any proof or evidence to show that is the case. In fact, even the term 'confession' is not correct. The true term for it is 'false accusation'. If one wishes to use a completely neutral term, then 'inadmissable statements/s' would also be valid terms, but the term 'false confession' is false and agenda laden.


Well then, I'm disappointed in Dempsey's journalistic skill-set, especially because she persists in calling that statement a "false confession." If she wanted to assume an objective stance, you would think she would have figured out her mischaracterization by now, at some point, and refer to it as an "inadmissable statement." But I think there's something else here - I think Dempsey is hurting AK's case, and also revealing what she REALLY thinks. That is, it's a (false) confession (after all, AK places herself at the scene of the crime, with her fingers covering her ears to block out the victim's screams)!

One would think, if Dempsey considers Amanda innocent, that she would avoid the word confession at all costs, especially in print. From a psychological point of view, when readers hear the term false confession, they remember it as (false) confession, and then simply as confession.
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Offline Fly by Night


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:29 am   Post subject: Breaking News: Perugia Police Video Captures Cartwheels!   

Here is a real gem!!!

A while back Professor Snape inquired as to whether or not the Perugia Police Department had video cameras installed on the premises. The recent police video that Anne Bremner tried to block, showing a policeman beating a 15 year old girl in a holding cell got me thinking about it again and I decided to dig a little deeper into the the possibility.

Lo and behold, I found it!!!

There is shocking new Perugia Police Video on YouTube that appears to have captured the alleged cartwheels and strange interactions between AK and RS at the police station. My first reaction after watching this is that the court testimony was incredibly understated, but as Anne Bremner cautioned regarding the Seattle video: it is possible to get the wrong impression from watching a video segment taken out of context. Nevertheless - I'm sayin' this is clearly not the splits!


Last edited by Fly by Night on Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:32 am   Post subject:    

Giustizia wrote:

Quote:
Sorry for the cross-post from the Dempsey "Amanda Knox: Yoga made her do it" blog entry today, but the vitriol and gratuitous name-calling is tedious.

"Harry R. Wilkens" wrote:

Posted by Harry R. Wilkens at 3/2/09 12:17 p.m.

I think it's not a good idea to let today's article in the WEST SEATTLE HERALD to be commented only by the usual Anti-Amanda gang. As soon as something is published about her, they come out of their hole^s like cockroaches... I know, we can't be everywhere and we are tired of that crap, but at least something should be done against that gang.


I have thick(ish) skin, but I don't think anyone on the PMF or TJMK sites ever refers to the FOA or the pro-Amanda crowd as cockroaches. This is just one of many slanders on various blogs - Perugia Shock also has similar boorish behavior. I understand this is a contentious trial, but the personal attacks come from the innocentisti, not from the colpevolisti.

I wonder, also, what "Harry R. Wilkens" has in mind when he/she says: "...at least something should be done against that gang." Again, I don't ever recall anyone, on the PMF or TJMK sites, making veiled threats against those who believe Knox is innocent of the murder of her roommate, Meredith Kercher. March 2, 2009 - 6:13pm



Funny you should mention this. I just got home and discovered (thanks to a few email alerts) that a certain local member of the innocentisti group had posted the comment below in the comments section of the West Seattle Herald under today's article.

Notice that he mentions me and my husband by name and gives readers our approximate address before going on to write a load of rubbish - for example, that we post under various names. For the record, I post as Lectrice or Lectrice56 in a couple of places that would not accept my usual handle.

Included in the rubbish, however, is the claim that he (or an associate?) has followed us. I flagged this comment as a violation and hope the WSH will remove it. West Seattle is a small community. Both my husband and I have extended family here, including our widowed mothers. We also have many, many friends. Anyone reading this would immediately recognize us because our first names and usual location are provided. I don't know whether this is meant to be a threat, but it feels like an unnecessary violation. Am I supposed to feel afraid? Am I supposed to refrain from expressing my views? You would think so, since the rambling part about the Italian police ends with this admonition: don't answer this!

I wish I could say I was tempted to respond in kind, posting private information about this person. It would be very embarrassing to people close to Amanda Knox and to her support group. And it would be very wrong.

I suppose this person knows very well that he can write these things with impunity because I won't ever respond in kind. This may be why the tone of the post is so brazen; in fact, he addresses Steve Shay as if Steve were a friend or an acquaintance. That is also troubling. Finally, coming as it does from a member of the inner circle of innocentisti, the parting shot - that it is perfectly fine to refer to the victim as "Kercher" (someone had apparently complained) - is downright chilling.

Anyway, I am fully creeped out now. It isn't that I feel afraid or threatened. It just always makes me sad to come across people who have no scruples and who seem quite proud of it. They're beyond the pale for me.


#31

Guest
Steve, You have couple of
Steve,

You have couple of people....Margarett and Walter who are posting as a few locales in West Seattle. Well of course they live just up the street from the Luna Park "tavern" but they discrace the blogsphere with their rederic and their thoughts that they really know everything about this case.

You see these two jokers don't know how to do anything but complain about every little piece of evidence that is challenged. These two people believe that police and prosecutors will not twist truths for their own benefit.

You see while they accuse Candace of stalking, they themselves were observed and followed to confirm who they were. It is no secret anymore and to prove the point, a 210 llb rat even threatened another poster about ever speaking to them while at the local market.

We know that the police are having problems in court sessions. They seem to have beenhaving problems keeping proper documentation in regards to the crime scenes and the jail. You see, in Italy, you don't have to keep good recrords of things because it might come up in court at a later time where facts are requested. What a better way than to just not record things and then sit on the witness stand and just say I don't remember.....

On a side note:

Can anyone tell me what proper behavior I should following if I were to visit italy? There must be a rules book on how to act after a murder right? Are there limits to how many times I should cry? How long am I suppose to go without eating? What size shoe whould I wear....36, 37 or 38? Please if one of these brilliant Amanda haters could just tell me something here in this blog that would allow for me to understand what rules I should follow....please don't hold back.....

Oh, and make sure you use proper behavior when doing so.

don't worry, normally your nuckleheads don't reply back because the truth hurts!

Steve, I think it is ok to use Kercher with saying Meredith. They just want you to get more google hits by using her first name.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:46 am   Post subject:    

Giustizia wrote:

Quote:
Michael wrote:
Candace has referred to it as that almost from the very beginning, which actually reflects her own bias and 'opinion', rather then any sort of fact. It has never been established as a 'false confession' in the true meaning of the term, neither is there any proof or evidence to show that is the case. In fact, even the term 'confession' is not correct. The true term for it is 'false accusation'. If one wishes to use a completely neutral term, then 'inadmissable statements/s' would also be valid terms, but the term 'false confession' is false and agenda laden.


Well then, I'm disappointed in Dempsey's journalistic skill-set, especially because she persists in calling that statement a "false confession." If she wanted to assume an objective stance, you would think she would have figured out her mischaracterization by now, at some point, and refer to it as an "inadmissable statement." But I think there's something else here - I think Dempsey is hurting AK's case, and also revealing what she REALLY thinks. That is, it's a (false) confession (after all, AK places herself at the scene of the crime, with her fingers covering her ears to block out the victim's screams)!

One would think, if Dempsey considers Amanda innocent, that she would avoid the word confession at all costs, especially in print. From a psychological point of view, when readers hear the term false confession, they remember it as (false) confession, and then simply as confession.


You would not be the first person disappointed with that particular skill set. If I ever get the time, I will draw up a very long list of all the silly statements Candace Dempsey has made (but will limit my search to what she has said about this case because I don't have that much time), followed by intelligent challenges from her gentle readers, followed by even sillier statements. This is a process that generally repeats itself until Candace has painted herself into a corner, at which point she screams "Basta!" and the discussion is brought to an abrupt halt. After that, the subject is never mentioned again until Candace presents her silly statement as a proven fact and the only allowable take on said subject. Many a totalitarian dynasty and dysfunctional family have been built using this exact same method. :)

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:52 am   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:

Quote:
Giustizia wrote:

Quote:
Michael wrote:
Candace has referred to it as that almost from the very beginning, which actually reflects her own bias and 'opinion', rather then any sort of fact. It has never been established as a 'false confession' in the true meaning of the term, neither is there any proof or evidence to show that is the case. In fact, even the term 'confession' is not correct. The true term for it is 'false accusation'. If one wishes to use a completely neutral term, then 'inadmissable statements/s' would also be valid terms, but the term 'false confession' is false and agenda laden.


Well then, I'm disappointed in Dempsey's journalistic skill-set, especially because she persists in calling that statement a "false confession." If she wanted to assume an objective stance, you would think she would have figured out her mischaracterization by now, at some point, and refer to it as an "inadmissable statement." But I think there's something else here - I think Dempsey is hurting AK's case, and also revealing what she REALLY thinks. That is, it's a (false) confession (after all, AK places herself at the scene of the crime, with her fingers covering her ears to block out the victim's screams)!

One would think, if Dempsey considers Amanda innocent, that she would avoid the word confession at all costs, especially in print. From a psychological point of view, when readers hear the term false confession, they remember it as (false) confession, and then simply as confession.


You would not be the first person disappointed with that particular skill set. If I ever get the time, I will draw up a very long list of all the silly statements Candace Dempsey has made (but will limit my search to what she has said about this case because I don't have that much time), followed by intelligent challenges from her gentle readers, followed by even sillier statements. This is a process that generally repeats itself until Candace has painted herself into a corner, at which point she screams "Basta!" and the discussion is brought to an abrupt halt. After that, the subject is never mentioned again until Candace presents her silly statement as a proven fact and the only allowable take on said subject. Many a totalitarian dynasty and dysfunctional family have been built using this exact same method.



Oops! I gave you the wrong version. What I meant to say was this: Why what do you mean? Candace Dempsey is an award-winning journalist who has won many awards. After years on the police beat and covering court cases, she won some more awards. Somewhere along the way, maybe in the 1970's or maybe in the 1990's, she was a graduate teaching assistant and got a master's degree in journalism from the University of Orgeuil. Did I mention her awards? I did? Okay.

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Offline Giustizia


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:55 am   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Anyway, I am fully creeped out now.

Skeptical Bystander, I've read a few of your recent posts about how the Seattle community is a relatively small one, and how many of those commenting on the case - not just here, but throughout the blogosphere, know each other, or know of each other. Hearing about the snide attacks (especially the nonsense about the FOA benefit, with eyewitnesses too) and to read about such personal animosity directed towards you, is outrageous.

I cannot imagine what it's like, especially when your name and address and other personal habits are bandied about. It's intimidation, frankly, and an attempt to shut down genuine inquiry into the case. If anyone on the PMF forum is wary of making a premature judgement of AK and RS, though, it's you. Usually, if someone rebuts a harsh statement made about AK and RS, it's you - asking the poster to consider other possibilities, to be objective and open-minded. That's what's ironic about Skeptical Bystander-bashers - there are quite a few of us on this forum who are unwaveringly convinced of AK and KS's complicity in the crimes committed against MK, while you continue to remain open to hearing out the trial in its entirety.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:08 am   Post subject:    

Giustizia wrote:

Quote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Anyway, I am fully creeped out now.

Skeptical Bystander, I've read a few of your recent posts about how the Seattle community is a relatively small one, and how many of those commenting on the case - not just here, but throughout the blogosphere, know each other, or know of each other. Hearing about the snide attacks (especially the nonsense about the FOA benefit, with eyewitnesses too) and to read about such personal animosity directed towards you, is outrageous.

I cannot imagine what it's like, especially when your name and address and other personal habits are bandied about. It's intimidation, frankly, and an attempt to shut down genuine inquiry into the case. If anyone on the PMF forum is wary of making a premature judgement of AK and RS, though, it's you. Usually, if someone rebuts a harsh statement made about AK and RS, it's you - asking the poster to consider other possibilities, to be objective and open-minded. That's what's ironic about Skeptical Bystander-bashers - there are quite a few of us on this forum who are unwaveringly convinced of AK and KS's complicity in the crimes committed against MK, while you continue to remain open to hearing out the trial in its entirety.


I think it is intimidation, but frankly it ain't working. Where there is a desire to shut down inquiry, there is something to hide, or so it seems. So it backfires with most of the people they want to reach.

I appreciate the fact that you realize why I chose my handle, as being an accurate description of where I stand. But I don't expect Goofy (in his many guises) and his friends to get that: for them, the world is divided into friends and enemies and there is nothing in between. No dialogue is possible. That's why I say they are beyond the pale. The force of the better argument means nothing to them; they only understand force and brutality.

Another reason they focus on me is because I am local and they are people who need to be able to smell their enemy and fantasize about meeting him or her in a dark alley. And I'm supposed to be firmly on the side of the hometown girl, no questions asked.

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Offline Giustizia


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:10 am   Post subject:    

Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Oops! I gave you the wrong version. What I meant to say was this: Why what do you mean? Candace Dempsey is an award-winning journalist who has won many awards. After years on the police beat and covering court cases, she won some more awards. Somewhere along the way, maybe in the 1970's or maybe in the 1990's, she was a graduate teaching assistant and got a master's degree in journalism from the University of Orgeuil. Did I mention her awards? I did? Okay.


I don't know that I've ever seen a first-person bio before in which the first four words were this: "I'm an award-winning..." It's not the fact that someone won an award, but the idea that the very first thing that person mentions is winning the award! The braggadocio is incredibly off-putting.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:22 am   Post subject: I'm an award winning award polisher   

Giustizia wrote:

Quote:
Skeptical Bystander wrote:
Oops! I gave you the wrong version. What I meant to say was this: Why what do you mean? Candace Dempsey is an award-winning journalist who has won many awards. After years on the police beat and covering court cases, she won some more awards. Somewhere along the way, maybe in the 1970's or maybe in the 1990's, she was a graduate teaching assistant and got a master's degree in journalism from the University of Orgeuil. Did I mention her awards? I did? Okay.


I don't know that I've ever seen a first-person bio before in which the first four words were this: "I'm an award-winning..." It's not the fact that someone won an award, but the idea that the very first thing that person mentions is winning the award! The braggadocio is incredibly off-putting.


When you see this, you understand why Americans have a reputation for being boastful, and for being shameless self-promoters. As one French expert in cultural differences put it (Dominique Moïse is his name): An American who has studied Italian at Berlitz for a few months will say he is fluent; an Englishman who has won Wimbledon might say, if pressed, that he plays a bit of tennis. :)

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Offline Greggy


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:33 am   Post subject:    

Hello Fly By Night

Thanks for placing a hyperlink to the video showing AK cartwheeling in the police station in your last communique. It does show how understated the police testimony was about her gymnastics. I hope the video doesn't get removed and lost in time...like tears in rain. What a classic movie.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 7:27 am   Post subject:    

Quote:
SH2000 wrote:
"AK, RG and possibly RS decided under the influence of smoking, and wih confident arrogance, to get the “prude” involved beyond her will…maybe she will like it. "


The word "possibly" hints that you have difficulties to get Rudy into the picture in this version.
So do I.

But his presence is still one of the few fixed points of the case.
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Offline anne


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:01 am   Post subject:    

bolint wrote:
Quote:
SH2000 wrote:
"AK, RG and possibly RS decided under the influence of smoking, and wih confident arrogance, to get the “prude” involved beyond her will…maybe she will like it. "


The word "possibly" hints that you have difficulties to get Rudy into the picture in this version.
So do I.

But his presence is still one of the few fixed points of the case.


Is there any possebility that Rudy's story of events is right?
Until now i havn't found any connection of him and the other two directly at the crime scene. It seems as if Ak and RS are one part for themselves and Rudy stands alone (speaking metaphorical) But where? Is there any part of evidence that conglomerates them irreversibly together? I dont know...Its strange, cos for me in a way his story makes kind of sense but in the end it doesn't...not calling for help, fleeing the country, meeting Meredith secretly...you know more than i do. It would be nice if you could correct me if i got something awfully wrong here. Its just that for me the "the 3 of them did it together" picture doesn't really fit.

And something else, do you know this article and what do you think about it?:


Foxy Knoxy, the girl who had to compete with her own mother for men

Its old i know, but i just came across it and found it quite interesting.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:25 am   Post subject:    

Quote:
anne wrote:
"Is there any possebility that Rudy's story of events is right? "


I don't think so. He has lied so many versions that he has no credibility and his latest version is full of absurdities.
And also, he has yet to prove that he had an iPod at all. His version is that he sold it in Germany. His lawyers argue that as iPods can be purchased in Perugia, so he could have had one, thus he must tell the truth. :D

And how is it realistic that he went to the house and tried to make love to Meredith and then as he went to the toilet someone rang the doorbell but he wasn't interested who he/she was. :D

I find it very suspicious that he talks about the stolen money in the German Diary at a time when it was not in the public knowledge that money was stolen.

So I don't believe him, neither his whole story, nor many details.


But I also can't see the link with the pair, though in this trial they got closer to each other than previous hints suggested.

On the other hand I think that there was a reason that Raffaele in his spontaneous statement at the pretrial claimed that he met Amanda on Oct 25.
I think it was stated primarily to isolate him more from Rudy.
Rudy was arrested in Milan on 27th in the morning, so he must have left on 26th at the latest. (I guess he went to Milan to sell the stolen laptop to get money for the rent)
Thus Raffaele's statement further narrows the Rudy-window.


Last edited by bolint on Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:29 am   Post subject:    

As for the article, I know it but I don't believe that the key to the case is in Seattle.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:23 am   Post subject:    

To Finn (but also interesting in regard to the mystery guy in the intercepted conversation in the police station (Nov 4 afternoon).


An old Messaggero report: "I was treated like a criminal"


"Amanda intercettata: mi trattano da criminale

PERUGIA (22 novembre) - «Come stai Amanda?». «Non bene, mi trattano come una criminale». Prima ancora di scrivere il memoriale in cui afferma che la polizia le ha messo pressione, l'ha stressata e le ha anche dato «un colpo in testa», Amanda Knox accusa il modo in cui l'hanno trattata gli investigatori in questura nei giorni immediatamente successivi all'omicidio di Meredith Kercher, prima del fermo. Un'accusa riportata nei verbali delle intercettazioni ambientali fatte nel corso delle ore trascorse in questura da Amanda, ma anche dal suo fidanzato Raffaele Sollecito e dalle altre persone che abitavano in via della Pergola. Nelle intercettazioni, fatte il 4 novembre, Amanda e Raffaele discutono delle insistenti domande dei poliziotti («mi vogliono spremere il cervello» dice Amanda ad un certo punto), parlano di quanto accaduto tre giorni prima, dei ragazzi che frequentavano la casa di Meredith, ma anche di cose più futili, scherzando e ridendo. Come ad esempio, è scritto nei verbali, quando Raffaele traduce in inglese alla fidanzata alcune parolacce italiane, o come quando sempre Sollecito, parlando al telefono di Amanda, promette che «farà una foto di loro due così». O, ancora, quando Amanda parla al telefono con la madre chiedendole che le porti delle cose assolutamente necessarie per lei, cioè alcuni capi di vestiario, ma soprattutto delle mutandine, perché negli ultimi giorni aveva usato le mutande di Raffaele. Ecco alcuni passi delle intercettazioni. 1) Amanda parla con Laura e Filomena (le sue coinquiline) A: «La polizia mi ha chiesto di Maurizio, perché lui è venuto nella casa». L: «Come fanno a sapere di Maurizio» A: «Non lo so...volevano sapere chi è alto tra tutte le persone che sono venute. Sei sicura che Giorgio non sia alto?». L: «Si». 2) Amanda risponde ad una domanda di una delle sue coinquiline (non indicata chi, tra Filomena e Laura) D: «Non mi sento bene in questo periodo, salto per qualsiasi cosa. Come stai Amanda?». A: «Non bene, mi trattano come una criminale... di non mentire... sta per venire mia madre». 3) Amanda e Raffaele, mentre mangiano una pizza, parlano di un ragazzo, probabilmente uno di quelli che frequentava la casa in via della Pergola. A: «Non mi piace più, francamente. Voglio dire: lui è stato carino a trovarmi un lavoro ed è stato carino a suonare la chitarra con...(la parola non si capisce, potrebbe essere "con me" o "con Meredith") quando sono andata a casa...». R: »Oh aspetta, stiamo parlando... (esita) del tuo amico del "Le Chic" oppure...». A: «Amico del Le Chic?». R: «Io sto parlando del tipo che...(esita)». A: «Chi?». R: «Parlo del tipo...». A: «Spiros« R: »No, Shaky, Shaky, eh eh». A: «Oh. Lui non mi piace. Lui non è...lo detesto quell'uomo (ridacchia). Lui provato con me». "


From this it looks like that they were not so calm as you suggest, Finn, at that time.



Amanda on the phone with Laura and Filomena

"A: The police asked me about Maurizio, because he came to the house.
L: How do they know of Maurizio?
A: I don't know. ... They wanted to know who is tall among all the persons who came there. Are you sure that Giorgio is not tall?
L: Yes."

Amanda answers to one of them:

"X: I don't feel well in this period. I jump to everything. How are you, Amanda?
A: Not well, I was treated like a criminal ... not to lie ... I'm waiting for my mother"

And the mystery conversation, a longer English version of which has already been discussed (inconclusively) above.
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Offline bolint


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:34 am   Post subject:    

I think that today's Giornale dell'Umbria refers to that same mystery guy with the 'lui".
Unfortunately we can't read the article.

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Offline observer


Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:36 pm

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:40 am   Post subject:    

nicki wrote:
FinnMacCool wrote:
I said they weren't very good reasons, Michael.

I'm just looking at the room I'm in now, and thinking - of course, I'd be the same height, except upside down, but I'd be afraid for the light fittings...


Hi Finn,
Italian ceilings are pretty high. In older buildings-let'say up to the 60-70's, the standard measure is around 3.30 -3.40 meters. In more modern buildings it goes from 2.80 to 3.0 meters, approximately. I think there's plenty of room...


It's not true that ceilings need to be high to do a cartwheel - whether you are standing upright with your arms extended above you or doing a handstand (the two opposite positions of a cartwheel), a normal room of whatever ceiling height would be adequate. You would need a little floor space though. A "ruota" (wheel) is a cartwheel.
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Offline FinnMacCool


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:40 pm   Post subject:    

Thanks, Bolint - that's very interesting. I didn't mean to say they were "calm", by the way. I meant "cocky", which isn't the same thing at all. I might be wrong, too, but it's what their behavior suggests to me.

Whether innocent or guilty, the two of them seem to be some kind of heightened shock state. I can't understand how people can try to rationalise their behavior as "normal" - what works better for me is the line that says "people react to shock in different ways", and so on.

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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:51 pm   Post subject: Re: Kitchen humor   

Jools wrote:
Hey Italian speakers,
Anybody knows what the food blogger is trying to say here. Is she implying that she knows Italian grammar?
:lol: :lol: :lol:

"So why did an officer write it down this way on her 1:45 a.m. statement, changing it to the future tense? Now it looks like she's going to meet him right away, just in time to kill Meredith.
Ho riposto al messaggio dicendogli che ci saremmo visti. (I replied with a message saying I will see you soon)."


Jools,

(a) I don't know. (b) Not implying.

Original bog post:
Quote:
Ho riposto al messaggio dicendogli che ci saremmo visti subito.
CD(?) version: (I replied with a message saying I will see you soon).


My version:
Quote:
“I replied to the message, telling him that we’d see each other straight away.”
OR: "that we'd be seeing each other soon"

2 m's = conditional present: "saremmo" = we'd be.....

1 m = future: "saremo" = we'll be...

GoogleTrans gets the verb right:

EN FRANÇAIS
J'ai riposto au message en lui disant que nous y serions vus vite.
versus
J'ai riposto au message en lui disant que nous y serons vus vite.

EN ESPAÑOL: VERÁN versus VERÍAN
[ log ]


Should someone tell her?
I'm not sure I quite know how. :?

I did find a handy button on my browser toolbar, though: it translates anything to anything! :D
I didn't know it was there!

There are sometimes pleasant surprises arising from the most serendipitous acts.
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Offline justlooking


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Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:45 pm

Posts: 314

Location: England

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:01 pm   Post subject:    

I think CD is implying that the police applied pressure on her during her interview when the text message 'see you later' came up. The difference in translation was significant at the time as it eventually led to the wrongful arrest of Patrick, but I don't see why it's such an important point now.

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Offline Catnip


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Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:08 am

Posts: 2997

Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:04 pm   Post subject:    

P.S.,

Reading further up in her blog, the point of her contention does not exist.

Sending an SMS saying "A piu tarde"
and
quoting someone as saying "Ho riposto al messaggio dicendogli che ci saremmo visti subito."

mean exactly the same thing.

One is direct speech, the other is reported speech.
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:08 pm   Post subject:    

Anne wrote:
Is there any possebility that Rudy's story of events is right?
Until now i havn't found any connection of him and the other two directly at the crime scene. It seems as if Ak and RS are one part for themselves and Rudy stands alone (speaking metaphorical) But where? Is there any part of evidence that conglomerates them irreversibly together? I dont know...Its strange, cos for me in a way his story makes kind of sense but in the end it doesn't...not calling for help, fleeing the country, meeting Meredith secretly...you know more than i do. It would be nice if you could correct me if i got something awfully wrong here. Its just that for me the "the 3 of them did it together" picture doesn't really fit.


A few things have recently made me think more about Rudy's part in all this.

His name is down to be called as a prosecution witness, but his current stance as expressed in Corriere dell'Umbria over the weekend is that he will refuse to take any part and if called, invoke his right to silence.

He says that in his report, Micheli branded him a total liar. If this court accepts what Micheli says, why should his evidence have any significance? His story would stay exactly the same as that given to Micheli and that has been rejected as untruthfull in its entirety. He says they've already got that evidence as given by him, why should he say it all again if nobody will believe him?

The CU says these words come from Rudy, but lets not forget that Biscuits and Gentile stand full square behind him and likely control the words Rudy says to the media.

Rudy's presense at the cottage when Meredith was killed is a given, that he touched her sexually is beyond dispute. But what exactly was his involvement in her killing?

Two questions stand out for me:

Rudy says that Amanda and Meredith had words over money. AK and RS have both been charged with the theft of Meredith's E300. Rudy wasn't. The prosecution must have evidence to back up this state of affairs. I just can't believe they would be relying on Rudy's evidence to place the charge. I believe that it's likely Amanda can't demonstrate where she obtained the cash which she possessed when she was arrested. I don't believe that Patrick would have owed and paid her anything like that sum or that RS lent her the money from his near empty bank account. Nor do I think Amanda will be able to demonstate a withdrawal of her own.

I also believe that jobs with Patrick at Le Chic played some part in the motive for what happened that night. Patrick firmed up his job offer to Meredith at Halloween, Meredith had opportunity to tell this to Amanda on the afternoon of the 1st before Patrick messaged Amanda that evening to say he wouldn't need her services that night. Who knows what feelings these events created in Amanda's mind?

My second question stems straight from Micheli's report. Even in his diary from Germany Rudy states that he went to the bathroom for a towel in an attempt to staunch the flow of blood from Meredith's neck. When the first one was soaked in blood he went and fetched a second.

In his report Micheli says that blood evidence proves that Meredith died by the wardrobe and was later moved to the position in which she was found. He says that the staging of the rape scene which was created suggests an attempt to point the finger of blame at Rudy. He describes what was found underneath Meredith when she was moved by the investigators. The pillow with bra clasp underneath it, a tennis shoe, a blue top and a white bed sheet all with BLOOD STAINS. Also a geen towel and an ivory towel BOTH SOAKED IN BLOOD.

Does this suggest that Rudy may well have held those two towels to Meredith's neck? Why were they even on the floor in the room if someone didn't get them from the bathroom?
They ended up UNDER Meredith's body in the scene which was staged. Whatever his involvement, is it possible that Rudy tried to help Meredith if he fetched those two towels from the bathroom?
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:08 pm   Post subject:    

Patrick puts in a claim against the state for 14 days unjust imprisonment.

E516,000 :shock:

Say's he's broke and unemployed.

An accountant has put in a submission on his loss from the subsequent failure of his business at Le Chic.

A phychiatrist has submitted a report on the physical and mental toll the case has taken on his life.

Original report in the CU but it's not available yet. Second hand:

AGI
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Offline LucyJ


Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:11 pm

Posts: 23

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:08 pm   Post subject:    

Leaving the Sh*t in an unflushed toilet makes it clae to me that someone wanted the finger of blame pointed towrds RG.

AK also taks of panicking, thinking the sh*t has been flushed away, supposedly because she then feared that an intruder had been in the house whilst she was showering. Methinks she panicked at the thought that someone had flushed away a prime piece of evidence pointing away from her and RS. As it happens, the sh*t was not flushed.

I also wondered about the towels. Could it be possible that someone (RG?) tried in a half-hearted way to try to help Meredith, but panicked and bolted when they decided that it was already too late to help (and perhaps when thay feared that there would be no way of "getting away" with being found alone in a room with someone who had been stabbed in the neck and whose body would contain evidence of sexual contact. ..)

Didn't RG give as his reason for wanting a fast-track trial the fear that AK and RS would try to pin all the blame on him?
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:37 pm   Post subject:    

The reason Candace Demsey HAS TO DISPUTE the intitial interviews, statements and detention conditions of AK and RS is because this is where all their problems stem from.

It's the reason most of the media and internet doubt their innocence.

Two innocent people wouldn't have any trouble in aligning their stories.

Even if two innocent people were "FORCED" to incriminate each other by the behaviour of their interrogators the first thing they do when relieved from that situation is revert to their original aligning stories and complain bitterly about their treatment.

Amanda's and Raffaele's problem is that although they complained bitterly about their treatment, they never did revert to their original stories, they never did give each other an alibi again. Instead they claimed they'd lost their memories in a cannabis haze.

Candace will never overcome this problem in the eyes of world opinion.

IF AK and RS are to be found innocent it will be on the evidence surrounding the crime.

I think CD is just attempting to rehabiltate Amanda in the eyes of the Seattle public should Amanda be lucky enough to return home. It's part of the PR effort and any resulting exclusive interviews will be good for her book. I find it impossible to think that she believes what she writes, just as PR people don't believe in the causes they are paid to promote.
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:08 pm   Post subject:    

Quote:
Brian wrote:
Amanda's and Raffaele's problem is that although they complained bitterly about their treatment, they never did revert to their original stories, they never did give each other an alibi again. Instead they claimed they'd lost their memories in a cannabis haze.


Yes, in Amanda's email (nov4) or in Raffaele's interview with Kate Mansey (Nov 3) there is no sign of any memory problems. :D

But these had been given before their version collapsed on the night of 5th.
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Offline Fly by Night


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:09 pm

Posts: 1014

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:27 pm   Post subject: Making Rivers Flow Uphill   

justlooking wrote:
I think CD is implying that the police applied pressure on her during her interview when the text message 'see you later' came up. The difference in translation was significant at the time as it eventually led to the wrongful arrest of Patrick, but I don't see why it's such an important point now.


It must be becasue CD has already finished her book and would need to significantly re-write large portions of it if she can't come up with some justifications and clarifications as new evidence appears.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


User avatar


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:47 pm   Post subject:    

Catnip wrote:

Quote:
Original bog post:

Ho riposto al messaggio dicendogli che ci saremmo visti subito.
CD(?) version: (I replied with a message saying I will see you soon).



My version:
Quote:
“I replied to the message, telling him that we’d see each other straight away.”
OR: "that we'd be seeing each other soon"

2 m's = conditional present: "saremmo" = we'd be.....

1 m = future: "saremo" = we'll be...

GoogleTrans gets the verb right:

EN FRANÇAIS
J'ai riposto au message en lui disant que nous y serions vus vite.
versus
J'ai riposto au message en lui disant que nous y serons vus vite.

EN ESPAÑOL: VERÁN versus VERÍAN
[ log ]



Should someone tell her?
I'm not sure I quite know how.

I did find a handy button on my browser toolbar, though: it translates anything to anything!
I didn't know it was there!

There are sometimes pleasant surprises arising from the most serendipitous acts.


The French would be "j'ai répondu à son message en lui disant que nous nous y verrions vite" (ou bientôt ou plus tard...), although I'm not sure I would put the "y" in unless I wanted to imply that we had agreed upon a place of meeting (since in this sentence it means "there"). In fact, in an ordinary conversation I would use "on" instead of "nous", so it would be "qu'on se verrait plus tard..."

But the point is, reported speech is present conditional in English as well: I told him I'd see him later or I told him we'd see each other later.

Candace is lost in translation.

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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:54 pm   Post subject: It was, like, worse than Survivor   

Brian S wrote:

Quote:
The reason Candace Demsey HAS TO DISPUTE the intitial interviews, statements and detention conditions of AK and RS is because this is where all their problems stem from.

It's the reason most of the media and internet doubt their innocence.

Two innocent people wouldn't have any trouble in aligning their stories.


I think it is also necessary because the myth that they were being held and tortured in Guantanémo-like conditions has collapsed entirely. Sollecito suffered no more than the humiliation of having to remove his shoes (probably because of the strong possibility he was carrying a knife) while Knox, after having had dinner just prior to coming to the station, did not get her tea, cakes and water until after she finished her workout in the waiting room. :)

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Offline Principessa Etrusca


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Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:15 am

Posts: 33

Location: London

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:14 pm   Post subject:    

Brian S. wrote:
Rudy says that Amanda and Meredith had words over money. AK and RS have both been charged with the theft of Meredith's E300. Rudy wasn't. The prosecution must have evidence to back up this state of affairs. I just can't believe they would be relying on Rudy's evidence to place the charge. I believe that it's likely Amanda can't demonstrate where she obtained the cash which she possessed when she was arrested. I don't believe that Patrick would have owed and paid her anything like that sum or that RS lent her the money from his near empty bank account. Nor do I think Amanda will be able to demonstrate a withdrawal of her own.


I have somehow always believed that the "drugged-up tart" is not a product of Rudi's imagination, but that he reported Meredith's words to Amanda exactly as they were spoken in a moment of anger. Meredith was a considerate person, at least one of her friends reported that she had sought advice on how to approach Amanda about not flushing the toilet, obviously because she had not wanted Amanda to feel bad. Meredith was not confrontational, but I believe that Amanda did something completely outrageous which made her say those words. It easily could have been the missing money which triggered the argument.

Quote:
I also believe that jobs with Patrick at Le Chic played some part in the motive for what happened that night. Patrick firmed up his job offer to Meredith at Halloween, Meredith had opportunity to tell this to Amanda on the afternoon of the 1st before Patrick messaged Amanda that evening to say he wouldn't need her services that night. Who knows what feelings these events created in Amanda's mind?


I do agree. Patrick reported that when he had told Amanda he didn't want her to continue working in the bar, but to distribute flyers instead, she had only said "fine" and turned round without any further comment or asking him to reconsider. What did she actually think? It is possible that during their conversation in the kitchen Meredith unwittingly mentioned that she got a job at the bar. What would have Amanda thought on hearing that? It is possible that when Meredith left to meet her girlfriends, Raffaele might have said something like "this Meredith seems nice". What would have Amanda thought?
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Offline Brian S.


Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:53 pm

Posts: 1115

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:23 pm   Post subject:    

There are 16 witnesses called to testify by Giuliano Mignini pm and Manuela Comfortable in the next three hearings - of 13, 14 and March 20 - the process and to urge Raffaele Amanda Knox for the murder of Meredith Kercher. Classroom still agents of Perugia flying squad and the central operations of police of Rome, which participated in the investigation. With them also assistant a team that will report on the steering wheel to turn in the police interpreter. In particular, regarding the Knox and the British friends of the victim, as well as details on what the murder were known to them.

Will be called to lay down their interpreters - those who followed the young American of the night still. All will be heard March 13. The next day we begin to speak of personal computers seized during the investigation with police investigators post. The hearing of March 20 will be centered on mobile phones of the accused and the victim. With a mobile team of the investigator who has dealt with the printouts and the managers of security Vodafone....


Google translation of Notizie Tiscali
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Offline bolint


Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:04 pm

Posts: 1251

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:35 pm   Post subject:    

"With them also assistant a team that will report on the steering wheel to turn in the police interpreter" :D Google Sentence of the Year.

Con loro anche un assistente della squadra volante che riferirà sull'attività di interprete svolta in questura.

With them also an assistant of the flying squad who will report on the translation activities performed at the police station.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:24 pm   Post subject:    

Observer wrote:

Quote:
nicki wrote:
FinnMacCool wrote:
I said they weren't very good reasons, Michael.

I'm just looking at the room I'm in now, and thinking - of course, I'd be the same height, except upside down, but I'd be afraid for the light fittings...


Hi Finn,
Italian ceilings are pretty high. In older buildings-let'say up to the 60-70's, the standard measure is around 3.30 -3.40 meters. In more modern buildings it goes from 2.80 to 3.0 meters, approximately. I think there's plenty of room...


It's not true that ceilings need to be high to do a cartwheel - whether you are standing upright with your arms extended above you or doing a handstand (the two opposite positions of a cartwheel), a normal room of whatever ceiling height would be adequate. You would need a little floor space though. A "ruota" (wheel) is a cartwheel.


TJMK has a new post up about Steve Shay's latest contribution to our understanding of this complex case, as dictated to him by Chris Mellas.
I've done enough gymnastics and yoga in my long life (and despite weighing in at 345 pounds according to Goofy) to know that, although the two disciplines are quite different, some of the moves are similar. To someone unfamiliar with yoga, some yoga poses and fluid movements would probably resemble cartwheels, splits and the like. What matters is what the two officers testified in court, and that was correctly reported by the competent journalists in attendance. Chris Mellas is wrong - as usual - to claim that "the tabloids" got it wrong.

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Offline Fly by Night


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:09 pm

Posts: 1014

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:39 pm   Post subject: Shocking New Video   

Greggy wrote:
Fly by Night wrote:
There is shocking new Perugia Police Video on YouTube that appears to have captured the alleged cartwheels and strange interactions between AK and RS at the police station.

Thanks for placing a hyperlink to the video showing AK cartwheeling in the police station in your last communique. It does show how understated the police testimony was about her gymnastics. I hope the video doesn't get removed and lost in time...like tears in rain. What a classic movie.


(((OT OT OT)))
In 1982 Blade Runner was a box office flop but followng a final 2007 re-release it is now ranked by many as the most important science fiction film of the 20th century - impressive considering the competition. According to Sir Ridley Scott's adaptation of Philip K. Dick's Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?, in 2019 a globally warmed earth will have biologically engineered beings called replicants (slaves, actually - today we might call them human clones) who do not age but are programmed to expire at a predetermined time.

So in 2009 we have designer babies and the beginnings of climate change, but I doubt the vision of flying cars is going to be realized within 10 years given the current economic climate. Philip K. Dick also wrote Minority Report which was turned into a movie starring Tom Cruise by Steven Speilberg. The movie concerns the year 2054 and a special police force called Precrime that apprehends criminals before they commit crimes, based on foreknowledge provided by three psychics termed "precogs". The movie predicts a society infused with RFID technology (the real world equivalent of Internet Tracking Cookies) which is just now beginning to infuse our grocery stores and shopping malls - it's probably already embedded in your passport.

This makes me think that if we could get Dick, Scott, Speilberg, and Cruise together for the screenplay of Monster of Perugia we could have a real blockbuster on our hands. The big question is who would be capable of pulling off the evil, twisted, demented, vengeful Mignini role? Tough call because who could possibly be up to the task but Mignini himself?
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:39 pm   Post subject:    

NPR's excellent Sylvia Poggioli has an excellent reportage on the case. Go to npr.org for both an audio and a written version. Here's an excerpt:

Quote:
"I don't know if they are guilty or innocent, but it's their lies that landed them in jail," Sarzanini says. "There are so many puzzles in this story. The defendants have told so many different versions of where they were and what they were doing the night of the murder. ... It's time for them to say exactly what they did. It's completely up to them — especially Amanda — to convince the jury of their innocence."

But despite all the media frenzy, virtually no one from the public follows the trial.

At nighttime in Perugia, raucous, laughing groups of students — Italians and foreigners — sit on the cathedral steps, drinking beer or smoking something stronger. Pushers openly sell their wares at every corner. Even police acknowledge that Perugia is the drug capital of Italy.

Nevertheless, the only trial some local people want to hold is against the media for revealing the seamy side of a university town where alcohol flows and dope circulates freely.

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Offline observer


Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:36 pm

Posts: 178

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:48 pm   Post subject: Re: Shocking New Video   

Quote:
Thanks for placing a hyperlink to the video showing AK cartwheeling in the police station in your last communique. It does show how understated the police testimony was about her gymnastics.


Sorry to be pedantic, but isn't that tumbling? :)

Whatever Amanda did, it made several observers think it was not appropriate behaviour under the circumstances and for the setting - a police station.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 pm

Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:59 pm   Post subject: Look at me! Look at me!   

Observer wrote:

Quote:
Quote:
Thanks for placing a hyperlink to the video showing AK cartwheeling in the police station in your last communique. It does show how understated the police testimony was about her gymnastics.


Sorry to be pedantic, but isn't that tumbling?

Whatever Amanda did, it made several observers think it was not appropriate behaviour under the circumstances and for the setting - a police station.


They looked like backflips to me. Whatever they were, they sure got everyone's attention for a few minutes. :)

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Offline Greggy


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Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:10 pm

Posts: 208

Location: Southern USA

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:30 pm   Post subject:    

To go with the AK cartwheeling video- a sneak preview exchange from the Dempsey script for the upcoming movie about this trial tentatively titled by her as " A Few Good Murderers" with Tom Cruise playing Mignini:

Amanda: You want answers?
Mignini: I think I'm entitled.
Amanda: You want answers?
Mignini: I want the truth!
Amanda: You can't handle the truth!!!


Actually, probably none of us can. This murder involved such senseless sadism.

I saw a picture of AK's Mother today for the first time, and thought that is probably how AK will look when she is released from prison.
By then, AK will have achieved her original goal; her Italian will be impeccable.
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Offline Tara


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Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:44 pm

Posts: 1010

Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:41 pm   Post subject: Steve Sham and more   

Skep,

I just read your comments over at TJMK regarding the West Seattle Herald comments. It's disgusting what Chris Mellas' pet dog Goofy is doing. The fact that the comment stayed up for over 14 hours says something about Steve Shay and the entire publication. I'm sure many are documenting these comments with screenshots and PDFs.

Speaking of Seattle area publications, here's some humor from the Houston based female lawyer, Debbie:

Quote:
Posted by deblu at 3/3/09 9:17 a.m.

Candace,

I completely understand what you're saying. I think the whole text message fiasco is just proof of how the police and judges in this case have made mountains out of molehills, that have sadly resulted in the wrongful imprisonment of three people.

Debbie


AND...Deb's cracked the case here:


Posted by deblu at 3/3/09 9:43 a.m.

The shoe print could possibly be brought up because the prosecution realizes it has been defeated. Thus, they throw in a shoe print of a woman which cannot be traced to Knox. In the end, they have Guede convicted and then some unknown female co-defendant who will never be found. Yet, then the prosecution and the judges whose reports will forever be on record can say, "well, we were right after all about there being a female present, because there was a shoe print of a female. No, it wasn't Knox and Sollecito after all, on that part we were mistaken, but certainly not on the original bizarre theory that has led to the drafting of some amazingly speculative judicial reports." Thus, the prosecution and judiciary are able to "save face."



Candace Dempsey and Steve Shay have no business hosting comment sections if they allow such ridiculous and incorrect individuals to post in my opinion. :roll:
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Offline Kermit


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Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:37 am

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:53 pm   Post subject: STEPPING OUT OF THE SHADOWS   

We saw the footprint on the pillow in the "Spin" presentation (review of Paul the PI's tests of what Sra. Nara saw or heard), without realising its significance. In the second part of that presentation we looked at spin coming from Hot Shot Lawyer Bremner, who claimed for some reason that police were covering up the real number of footprints in the bedroom, when in fact there are several different shoeprints which have been documented in the press, many with photos.

This image comes from La Nazione. It indicates an area in the lower left where there is an "Impronta di scarpa", without indicating that it is a smaller female size. This image appears to come from the Investigation report, which probably would detail the measurements associated with the shoeprint.

In that regard, it seems the FOA and The Entourage, in spite of their access to the results of the investigation report thanks to Candace Dempsey's "Trusted Sources", conveniently looked aside when they read about the female shoeprint on the pillow under the murder victim's body, inside the bedroom.

The FOA site states "Guede, and Guede alone, is responsible for Meredith's tragic death."

Well, then what do they think about the female shoeprint? They get all silent when anything like this comes up, then they come out with inexistent controversies and diversionary comments about whether the police officers bought Amanda a Twinkie from the snack machine, or a pack of Smarties.

I tried to enhance the square on the photo which highlights the shoeprint. That didn't add alot. However, if you look at it long enough, you get the feeling for what could be the outline of a shoe. I don't guarantee that the red line actually shows the form of the shoe, but it's a possibility



Last edited by Kermit on Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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Posts: 7006

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:20 pm   Post subject:    

Kermit wrote:

Quote:
In that regard, it seems the FOA and The Entourage, in spite of their access to the results of the investigation report thanks to Candace Dempsey's "Trusted Sources", conveniently looked aside when they read about the female shoeprint on the pillow under the murder victim's body, inside the bedroom.

The FOA site states "Guede, and Guede alone, is responsible for Meredith's tragic death."

Well, then what do they think about the female shoeprint? They get all silent when anything like this comes up, then they come out with inexistent controversies and diversionary comments about whether the police officers bought Amanda a Twinkie from the snack machine, or a pack of Smarties.


Well, their mantra - that there is not one shred of evidence against Amanda - actually induces pattern sensory malfunction. See no footprint, hear no footprint, there is no footprint. Hey! Look over there! It's a bird! It's a plane! It's Amanda, doing the downward facing dog in the police station waiting room.

Italy is a great country and those Italians are just marvelous. The only problem is that they mistranslate and/or misinterpret everything.

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Offline justlooking


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Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:45 pm

Posts: 314

Location: England

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:24 pm   Post subject: Re: Steve Sham and more   

Tara wrote:
Skep,

I just read your comments over at TJMK regarding the West Seattle Herald comments. It's disgusting what Chris Mellas' pet dog Goofy is doing. The fact that the comment stayed up for over 14 hours says something about Steve Shay and the entire publication. I'm sure many are documenting these comments with screenshots and PDFs.

Speaking of Seattle area publications, here's some humor from the Houston based female lawyer, Debbie:

Quote:
Posted by deblu at 3/3/09 9:17 a.m.

Candace,

I completely understand what you're saying. I think the whole text message fiasco is just proof of how the police and judges in this case have made mountains out of molehills, that have sadly resulted in the wrongful imprisonment of three people.

Debbie


AND...Deb's cracked the case here:


Posted by deblu at 3/3/09 9:43 a.m.

The shoe print could possibly be brought up because the prosecution realizes it has been defeated. Thus, they throw in a shoe print of a woman which cannot be traced to Knox. In the end, they have Guede convicted and then some unknown female co-defendant who will never be found. Yet, then the prosecution and the judges whose reports will forever be on record can say, "well, we were right after all about there being a female present, because there was a shoe print of a female. No, it wasn't Knox and Sollecito after all, on that part we were mistaken, but certainly not on the original bizarre theory that has led to the drafting of some amazingly speculative judicial reports." Thus, the prosecution and judiciary are able to "save face."



Candace Dempsey and Steve Shay have no business hosting comment sections if they allow such ridiculous and incorrect individuals to post in my opinion. :roll:


I hadn't realised that Debbie (deblu) was a lawyer! She does ask a lot of questions which may belie her legal background, but also formulates flights of fancy hypothesises which seem to have no basis in fact or even logic. I'm sure she and others pop in here now and again and I'm not meaning to be rude, but I do wonder if she's doing it for a dare or this is really how the legal mind works.


Last edited by justlooking on Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:29 pm   Post subject: Meet the Entourage   

Tara wrote:

Quote:
I just read your comments over at TJMK regarding the West Seattle Herald comments. It's disgusting what Chris Mellas' pet dog Goofy is doing. The fact that the comment stayed up for over 14 hours says something about Steve Shay and the entire publication. I'm sure many are documenting these comments with screenshots and PDFs.


I think it reflects very poorly on Goofy and anyone who condones or encourages him. It surprises me that he and his handlers don't realize that they are doing nothing to win over hearts and minds to their cause. On the contrary, most reasonable people look at that kind of thing and want to stay as far away as possible. Goofy is like kryptonite.

Here's my take, for what it's worth. I have come to the conclusion that some of the people in Amanda's entourage are not people I would ever want to have anything to do with. Character is revealed in adversity and challenge -- it is easy to be pleasant and fair when you are in a situation that is pleasant and life therefore seems fair.

When life turns ugly and unfair, the rubber hits the road. Having seen the character of certain people as revealed by their comments and actions, I feel today that regardless of the outcome of this case, I will view Goofy, Chris Mellas and DJ (not to mention a few others) as "obtuse moral retards." Goofy is their most out-of-control badwill ambassador, although Harry Wilkens is now giving him a serious run for his money.

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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:54 pm   Post subject:    

Justlooking Wrote:
"I hadn't realised that Debbie (deblu) was a lawyer! She does ask a lot of questions which may belie her legal background, but also formulates flights of fancy hypothesises which seem to have no basis in fact or even logic. I'm sure she and others pop in here now and again and I'm not meaning to be rude, but I don wonder if she's doing it for a dare or this is really how the legal mind works."

You are very polite. :lol:

She is just dim probably another member of the cooks family.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:03 pm   Post subject: Re: Stepping out of the Shadows   

Kermit -

Yet another important and helpfull mini-presentation from you! :) As with the others, I have published it in the KERMIT'S POWERPOINTS & PRESENTATIONS thread in the Media forum so members/visitors can find it easily in the future.

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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:05 pm   Post subject: Euthanasia   

We are but a few Seattle folk speaking out for Justice for Meredith. We want the killers of Meredith brought to justice. THAT'S IT!

I see the Amanda Defense Fund has a whoppin' 11 people (2 with no last names) who have spoken out in Amanda Knox's defense. Shouldn't that be an ever growing testimonial to Amanda's wonderful demeanor? Yet, I believe the last entry was Kelly B. who has NEVER MET AMANDA!!

Little dogs like Goofy have big YIP YAPS but unfortunately he will never see the Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show - no, I'm afraid he's destined for euthanasia at the local dog pound...sad really. I'm sure there are some quiet Knox supporters who are wonderful people who HOPE Knox is innocent, but are waiting for the trial to sort things out...Just like we are. (Damn, did I catch the dreaded ellipse disease from that damn dog?)

Incidentally, that dog just nipped my heels (Scara, my favorite nickname) over at Chez Shay today as well! A class act, that one!
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Offline Skeptical Bystander


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:12 pm   Post subject:    

Jools wrote:

Quote:
Justlooking Wrote:
"I hadn't realised that Debbie (deblu) was a lawyer! She does ask a lot of questions which may belie her legal background, but also formulates flights of fancy hypothesises which seem to have no basis in fact or even logic. I'm sure she and others pop in here now and again and I'm not meaning to be rude, but I don wonder if she's doing it for a dare or this is really how the legal mind works."

You are very polite.

She is just dim probably another member of the cooks family.


I don't think she is a lawyer. Her lawyerly talk is very superficial, like she picked it up while watching reruns of Law & Order. I see her more in the role of "Legal Person" over at the Bog - an offsider to Funnycat, the "Science Person."

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Offline jodyodyo


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:13 pm   Post subject:    

Miss Represented has another thought provoking post up here:

http://missrepresented.wordpress.com/

This one titled: The Game

Skep, appreciate your level-headed comment on the new TJMK post. Well thought out and well said.
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Offline Tara


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:15 pm   Post subject: Rude Lawyer   

Jools wrote:
Justlooking Wrote:
"I hadn't realised that Debbie (deblu) was a lawyer! She does ask a lot of questions which may belie her legal background, but also formulates flights of fancy hypothesises which seem to have no basis in fact or even logic. I'm sure she and others pop in here now and again and I'm not meaning to be rude, but I don wonder if she's doing it for a dare or this is really how the legal mind works."

You are very polite. :lol:

She is just dim probably another member of the cooks family.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Debbie must not have any cases right now so she can focus on helping to "get dem kids outta dere". To see Debbie in her finest form, take a hop over to Miss Represented's blog a few entries back under the "Understanding Feminism" entry - "FemaleLawyer" (Debbie) starts the very first comment with insults to the hostess, Miss R. Not good. In fact, really REALLY bad!
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Offline jodyodyo


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:16 pm   Post subject:    

Skep said, I don't think she is a lawyer. Her lawyerly talk is very superficial, like she picked it up while watching reruns of Law & Order. I see her more in the role of "Legal Person" over at the Bog - an offsider to Funnycat, the "Science Person."

How many sisters does CD have? :lol: When I first starting reading her posts on the other site I thought it was someone just trying to keep Candace busy. Hmmm......
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:23 pm   Post subject: Kitchen Humor   

The cook says:

"I was not in court and do not have the transcript yet so I can't answer many of the excellent questions raised here by people on all sides. I do know it was a very difficult, exhausting two days with few answers."

:lol:

She gets funnier by the hour :lol: :lol:

Yep, not in court therefore not able to answer all questions. How about asking your man in Perugia? This is got to be the longest digestion ever!

Everybody knows, even her most ardent fans know that she does not understand Italian at all, so how can her presence in court matter at all? She was apparently in court on previous sessions and still was writting the same rubbish as before.

And she still waiting for the transcripts. :lol: Well, you are in for a very long wait. IMaybe she is waiting for the trial transcripts to arrive before her book gets published. :lol:

You think she keeps a straight face on when she types this things??
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Offline Jools


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:43 pm   Post subject:    

Luciano Ghirga said October 2008 the following about the hit and WELL AFTER FULL KNOWLEDGE OR ACCESS TO AK's STATEMENTS.


'Amanda wasn't hit. There were pressures from the police, sure, but we never said she was hit.


According to Spotty Youth JD AK's lawyer L. Ghirga has only said it once back in 2007. ONCE MORE ANOTHER LIE!

"Ghirga said that way back in November of 2007 about her not being hit. Back then it was not the time to challenge the accusation. This was done before full knowledge or access to her statements and all that jazz was available."
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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:59 pm   Post subject: Re: Steve Sham and more   

justlooking wrote:

I hadn't realised that Debbie (deblu) was a lawyer! She does ask a lot of questions which may belie her legal background, but also formulates flights of fancy hypothesises which seem to have no basis in fact or even logic. I'm sure she and others pop in here now and again and I'm not meaning to be rude, but I do wonder if she's doing it for a dare or this is really how the legal mind works.


Hi Justlooking,

Bravo! It takes a lot of patience and self -control to post "over there" . On a blog where posters seem to be busy exclusively in dismantling each and every single piece of evidence gathered by the ILE, by using arguments ranging from preposterous to ludicrous. The seek for truth about this heinous murder seems to be their least worry. To most of them, it's all about Knox being "unjustly" accused. I have even read a sickening post by someone who was objecting to the use of the words "Meredith’s butchered body" -as it was used by one of the officers who had seen it-, since a "simple" neck wound wouldn't "deserve" the status of "being butchered"...So now the ILE is lying even when referring about the state of the body…

I 'm aware that the evidence pointing at Knox and Sollecito is merely circumstantial-but by the same reasoning the same could be said about Guede's evidence. As a matter of fact, Guede's DNA was found merely on three precise spots in the murder room: side of the bra, outside of purse and inside body. Does that objectively means he killed Meredith? No, it doesn’t. It just says he was there, but since no Judge, including Micheli would believe that Meredith had invited him and was willing to have sex with him, he was served his fully deserved 30 years term-

That said, I would like to point out that to me Guede is as guilty as sin, and by all means, the above is not an attempt to exonerate him. I’m just pointing out that if we have to believe Knox and Sollecito ‘s tales, why shouldn’t we believe Guede’s as well? The black guy did it. The black guy has been convicted- Hurray, ILE, you got this right! But as far as the two good looking white kids are concerned, the ILE got it all wrong… Sorry , I am not buying it.

Thanks again Justlooking for your efforts to counteract the endless spin.... I’ve given up a long time ago :-)
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Offline justlooking


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:05 pm   Post subject:    

Unfortunately we all have to wade through the lies, half truths and simple ignorance (I suspect this is the most common) before we get to the real truth - or at least, that truth that makes the most sense to those without a vested interest in the outcome. So long as every piece of evidence is questioned thoroughly then this should be the final outcome (gosh, I'm so naive ;)).

The problem I find with the FOA and up to a point CD's blog is that they cherry pick the evidence they're interested in (so far it seems - anything circumstantial and not related to the murder) and ignore or dismiss any evidence that shows there was more than one person involved in this crime. You can't blame them as their agenda is to see Knox released.

By the way, is there a 'Friends of Raffaele' campaign anywhere? As the prosecution of Amanda is going to be such a miscarriage of justice I'm surprised that her partner in nocrime is not also being similarly championed.

Maybe they do things differently 'abroad'.

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Offline justlooking


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:08 pm   Post subject:    

Thanks nicki. I'm not posting over there for any other reason apart from trying to get to the truth. It maybe is a lion's den but so far they are tame.

btw - I think the comment about 'butchered body' was in one of my threads. Apparently I shouldn't have used the word butchered as it offends the time honoured tradition of butchers everywhere.

You couldn't make it up if you tried...

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Offline nicki

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:16 pm   Post subject:    

justlooking wrote:
Thanks nicki. I'm not posting over there for any other reason apart from trying to get to the truth. It maybe is a lion's den but so far they are tame.

btw - I think the comment about 'butchered body' was in one of my threads. Apparently I shouldn't have used the word butchered as it offends the time honoured tradition of butchers everywhere.

You couldn't make it up if you tried...

HAHA JL,
the word "butchered" was used by the police officer who saw the body...guess she's the one the butcher's guild should blame ;)
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